Can some one help, when we want to determine the back pressure for a we see the static pressure

or total pressure???? Thanks in advance

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4y

and to share lessons learned with focus on pressure

Sidhesh Pathare

relieving and depressuing system design as well as flare

Facilities Engineer at Oxy

network simulation.

Can some one help, when we want to determine the back

pressure for a particular PSV on flare net, do we see the
static pressure or total pressure???? Thanks in advance
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This is an open group to discuss about technical queries

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Ansar Iqbal Its total pressure.

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4y
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Sidhesh Pathare Thanks Iqbal...

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4y

Dave Brown I believe if you select the total pressure, then this is equal to the static pressure (ie
what pressure you would see if you used a pressure guage at that point) + flarenet converts all
the kinetic energy into pressure by reversible stopping the gas flow. If you look at the results,
the total pressure is always > static pressure.

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So you need to use the static pressure for PSV back-pressure determination.
Check that you have display total pressure unticked in the options and selct static pressure for
MABP warnings.

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Hope that helps Davey Show less

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4y

Rohit Mistry I agree with Dave. Static pressure should be used for PSV back pressure check
and not total pressure.
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4y

Sidhesh Pathare Thanks guys that helps...

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4y

Pasquale Nardella Guys

I'm just running a flare network study for a european refinery and I confirm that for
backpressure check at psv out you need to check the static pressure. In Flarenet you can flag
this on the general settings. (BACKPRESSURE WARNING FOR STATIC PRESSURE).
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4y

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Can some one help, when we want to determine the back pressure for a we see the static pressure or total pressure???? Thanks in advance

7/12/16, 7:41 PM

kianoosh karimpour chakhasar It is completly correct. Total presssure is the summation of

static and kinetic pressure and shall not be used in PSV back pressure calculation and
determination.
4y

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NASIBAH HARTONO i dont understand clearly...currently, im doing flarenetwork
calculation...can some1 explain the the reason why we dont consider the total pressure? i
thought that the bigger the back pressure is more conservative for design?

4y

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Brian Marshall All

The reason you do not consider total pressure is that the kinetic portion of the pressure acts
only in the direction of travel of the gas whereas static pressure acts in all directions .
An anology to help you on this .. you are trying to get out of a room into a corridor that is full of
people..the mass of people there is the staic pressure part. if they are moving slowly forward
then they have a small kinetic energy( pressure) but the mass/number people per m2 is still
the same, if they walk faster then static is same but total increases.
this is how i used to teach Flarenet , think of people in corridors rooms etc squashing together
through doors, into small corridors and then accelerating in wider corridors. It goes a long way
to assist in visualising hydraulics.
Flare e nuf Show less
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3y

Triyanto Riyadi We have already understood that back pressure has several impacts to PSV
performance ( on the relief valve opening, operation and flow capacity ; http://www.processeng.blogspot.com/2011/03/back-pressure-eect.html), based on those impacts, its caused by
the static pressure instead of total pressure.
Brian Marshall give very good an analogy for that.
We should use static pressure in Flarenet.
It is correct that the total pressure > static pressure and will give more conservative result, In
the new design case you can use this consideration.
But, for bottlenecking case of existing facilities, its better for you to use static pressure as back
pressure. Show less
3y

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Pasquale Nardella You need to check static pressure, total pressure is the sum of static
pressure and the pressure that will develop if the flowing fluid from PSV is stopped (zero
velocity).
Regards

3y

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Brian Marshall gentlemen
You seem to be confusing the issue here again.

Triyanto
total pressure > static pressure and will give more conservative result, In the new design case
you can use this consideration.
This is not true Flare systems are always designed on static pressure whether a new build or a
debottlenecking or revamp.
Pasquale
If a flowing fluid is stopped then nothing is "developed" you are le" purely with static pressure
which can simply be atmospheric + or a backpressure caused by other flowing reliefs.
If you use Flarenet then you should not be considering total pressure in your evaluation ( apart
from an overall check on pressure gradient if required) Show less
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3y

Sulana Chunilal So Brian, essentially what you are saying is that PSV backpressure = static
pressure. Right?
3y
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Can some one help, when we want to determine the back pressure for a we see the static pressure or total pressure???? Thanks in advance

7/12/16, 7:41 PM

3y
Hooman Tabaraei If we assume back pressure as static pressure in Flarenet,MABP (permitted
built-up back pressure) is compared with (calculated) static pressure. And if it's more than
(calculated) static pressure, it means relief gas from PRV can dominate on static pressure
through flare header. But if assume back pressure as total back-pressure (static pressure+buitl
up back pressure), MABP being compared with total back pressure, and it means it should
dominate on both static pressure and built-up back pressure, otherwise error-message is
appeared that PRV is not able to open to flare header. So I think the "total back pressure" is
better choice. Please correct it, if I'm not right.
One more question that is related to back pressure- why in estimation of orifice area of PRV, in
case of sub-critical flow at downstream of PRV, both P1(Relief pressure) and P2(total back
pressure) are implemented whereas in critical flow, only P1 is considered, as per API 520
relevant equations.
Thanks Show less
3y

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Brian Marshall Hooman
total back presure is not what you use for PSV design. total backpresssure is static pressure +
velocity head.
It is only static that you need to consider, as explained clearly above.
In critical flow the downstream pressure does not matter as you are at critical/choked flow
and consequently P2 has no impact. basic hydraulics sir ! Show less
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3y

Reza Modanloo Dear Sidhesh,

as other friends said, we have to consider total back pressure for our calculation i Flarenet
definitely.you know that back pressure is constituted two parts which are superimposed back
pressure and build up back pressure.s... Show more
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3y

Brian Marshall Dear everyone

I am going to stick with this one until everyone understands as i think it is important.
Firstly my credentials
my company originally wrote Flarenet , a"er selling it to Hyprotech/Aspentech i continued with
the program as technical Manager for a period . I also taught Flarenet courses for 20 years and I
have been working in the Flare and Relief System for over 30 years now.
So I do know what i am talking about honest!
There are 2 parts to backpressure Static and kinetic.
The reason you do not consider total pressure is that the kinetic portion of the pressure acts
only in the direction of travel of the gas whereas static pressure acts in all directions .
An anology to help you on this .. you are trying to get out of a room into a corridor that is full of
people..the mass of people there is the staic pressure part. if they are moving slowly forward
then they have a small kinetic energy( pressure) but the mass/number people per m2 is still
the same, if they walk faster then static is same but total increases.
this is how i used to teach Flarenet , think of people in corridors rooms etc squashing together
through doors, into small corridors and then accelerating in wider corridors. It goes a long way
to assist in visualising hydraulics.
for sizing / rating PSV's you use STATIC BACKPRESSURE ONLY.
some of you are getting confused by referring to superimposed plus built up backpressures as
TOTAL Pressure, this is incorrect
the original question in this thread was " do we use static or total pressures "
answer =STATIC,
which is made up of two parts
i) superimposed backpressure which usually is atmospheric pressure at the tip
ii) built up BP which is caused by the gas flowing from the PSV to the tip
I really hope this finally clarifies everyones thinking on this subject now. Show less
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Can some one help, when we want to determine the back pressure for a we see the static pressure or total pressure???? Thanks in advance

7/12/16, 7:41 PM

I really hope this finally clarifies everyones thinking on this subject now. Show less
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3y

Triyanto Riyadi Dear Brian,

Your explanation is very clear. I understand and agree with you.
Thank you.
3y

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Avani Nath Thanks Brian!!

I just got out from a bustling subway train, So your analogy makes the point perferctly clear to
me.
3y

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Hooman Tabaraei Thanks Brian for your comprehensive explains, but there are some
questions in my mind;
1) In case of having HP flare header above ATM, do we need to consider still ATM for
superimposed pressure?
2) It seems, velocity head, or kinetic energy pressure diers from pressure drop due to
flowing of relief gas through the flare header from PSV/BDV till flare tip? If yes, why dont you
consider pressure drop along with superimposed pressure as static pressure, otherwise
pressure drop has been ignored in flare header sizing. Show less

3y

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Brian Marshall hooman

the superimposed part of the "static prerssure" is the pressure at which the relief flow
discharges against, so fo a fluid flowing into a flare sytem and exiting at the tip the
superimposed bP is atm. It doesnt matter if its an LP or HP header both relieve into
atmosphere.
"The built up" part of the dP is the pressure drop created by the flowing fluid between the psv
and the tip outlet.
So if this is say 1.5 bar then the backpressure on the psv is 1.5bar + 1.014 bara = 2.514 bara.
Now Flare and relief systems are usually defined/calculated in barg so bP = 1.5barg.
Some engineers think of the "built up" bP as the pressure drop in the tailpipe and the super
imposed bP as that pressure in the header into which the tailpipe discharges. This can be
confusing.....
if , say , PSV12 is closed but several other relief flows are venting into the header system, PSV12
will see a superimosed back pressure Pb1 on the outlet flange caused by these gases flowing,
this bP will be the same at the flange as it is in the tailpipe exit. Now as soon as PSV12 opens
gas flows down the tailpipe initially against a superimposed bP at the tailpipe exit of Pb1 BUT
within seconds this Pb1 changes as the mass of gas now flowing to the tip has changed. The
system will now reach a new equilibrium situation where, assuming that PSV12 is still flowing ,
Pb2 is higher ( due to increased flow).
So the easy way to remmeber this is that Superimposed bP on a valve is the pressure caused
by other reliefs passing and built up bP is the bP on a valve caused by that valve flowing into
the flare system.
an analogy
you are in a subway carriage witing for the doors to open so you can get o. The platform has
people on it walking towards the exit. This is superimposed bP in a way ( think of no of people
per m2 as bP) now the exit from the station into the street is at atmospheric P, people disperse
quickly.
Your train door opens and you and others rush onto the platform, immediately the (people /
m2) increases ( built up backpressure) and this increase will eventually work its way to the exit
, so more people come out of the station /min.
So if people are still exiting your carriage they will be seeing more ( people/m2) on teh
platform than before the door initially opened.
SO built up bP is now > original superimposed bP
Hope this makes sense.
this should also answer part 2 of your question Show less
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3y

Emad El Gebesy Total back pressure is the total of superimposed and built-up back pressure.
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Can some one help, when we want to determine the back pressure for a we see the static pressure or total pressure???? Thanks in advance

7/12/16, 7:41 PM

Emad El Gebesy Total back pressure is the total of superimposed and built-up back pressure.
Built-up is the acting pressure when psv opend
Superimposed is the acting pressure when psv closed
3y

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Triyanto Riyadi dear Emad El,

Your statement is correct in term of total back pressure or definition of TOTAL BACK PRESSURE.
But, look like you are getting confused with the definition of STATIC PRESSURE and TOTAL
PRESSURE in FLARENET simulator.
In my understanding, a"er explained by Brian, Flare net use the common definition of fluid
hydraulic where the the total pressure will be total of static pressure (pressure head) and
dynamic pressure( velocity head).
Based on that, we should consider only static pressure in flarenet to determine the back
pressure of the PSV..the static pressure it self will already included both superimpossed (if any)
and built up back pressure. Show less
3y

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Brian Marshall Emad
Not sure if have read the threads here fully but sorry as far as FNT goes its as I and Triyanto
keep saying
total pressure = static pressure (pressure head) + dynamic pressure( velocity head).
i am posting no more on this as it seems to be going in circles.
Please all read and accept the above it is 100% correct.
I know, we wrote FLarenet ...., Show less
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3y

Sholeh Nakhostin I agree with Brian's statement.

The original question, which in fact opened this discussion, was about the "total pressure" in a
context that takes the static pressure with or without adding the velocity head. The 'total
pressure" in the original discussion is the definition we use in hydraulics either flare or
pipeline.
The concept of superimposed back pressure and buildup back pressure relates to each
particular service, in this case we say "total back pressure" and not the "total pressure".

<a href=http://download.cnet.com/Free-Youtube-Downloader-Pro/3000-2071_475329731.html >youtube downloader</a> Show less

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3y

Souvik Biswas In flarenet, total pressure = static pressure + dynamic head, so when we say
back pressure on the valves, we are talking about static pressure on the valves not total
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Can some one help, when we want to determine the back pressure for a we see the static pressure or total pressure???? Thanks in advance

7/12/16, 7:41 PM

back pressure on the valves, we are talking about static pressure on the valves not total
pressure
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3y

Hubert Gan I have a question regarding an increase in presure across an expander located
downstream of a PSV.
Say the current model built in the Flarenet looks something like this: a 1x2 PSV, 2" (dummy)
downstream pipe which connects to a 2x3 expander and 3 downstream pipe to the flare
drum.
When I run Flarenet, I get a Mach number of 1.0 at the inlet of my 3x2 expander. At a mach
number of 1.0 my expander sees a pressure decrease across the expander, but when my mach
number < 1 at the inlet of the expander, Flarenet simulates a pressure increase across the
expander.
My question is: why does pressure increase across an expander when the Mach number is < 1?
How is it possible to flow from low pressure to high pressure in this case?
Hope if anybody can explain this. Many thanks. Show less
3y

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Triyanto Riyadi Hubert Gan,
Its better you make a new question not in this forum a"er long long discussion like this.
Some people will be getting confused if we discuss in same forum with dierent subject or
material.
Please kindly make a new forum to discuss your problem.
Thanks
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3y

Muhammad Elhassan Dears,

I wonder if Flarenet used 'Rated' flow for tail pipes and downstream nodes, how could it use
the 'Required' mass flow for downstream non-tail pipes, e.g. main headers. If Rated flow came
out of the PSV, shouldn't it continue to flow till the end of the network?
I'm asking this because i'm running a Rating model for an existing flare network and would like
to understand how the so"ware works and relate this how physically the network would work.
I appreciate your thoughts,
Muhamamd Show less
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2y

Dave Brown Hi Muhammad

I would have started a new thread for your discussion as this one is almost a year old.
In answer to your question, it is normal practice to use the rated capacity for tailpipes and
required flow for headers - this is discussed in API 521 if my memory is correct.
If you had a scenario with 10 PSVs, it is unlikely that all PSVs will li" at exactly the same time, ie
unlikely that all valves will be at there rated capacity simultaneously. So by using the required
flow for the headers, this takes this into account and prevents over design of the headers, ie
larger diameter than required.
Hope this helps Davey Show less
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2y

Souvik Biswas Hi Mohammed,

I think your main confusion is about mass balance in the system. How can you use rated flow in
the tailpipes and required flow in the headers.
Here is your answer: Flarenet always use required flow for mass/energy balance. It only uses
the rated flow in pressure drop calculation (per API 521). You can consider it like a modified
pressure drop correlation where pressure drop is multiplied by the factor of (Rated flow/ mass
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Can some one help, when we want to determine the back pressure for a we see the static pressure or total pressure???? Thanks in advance

7/12/16, 7:41 PM

pressure drop correlation where pressure drop is multiplied by the factor of (Rated flow/ mass
flow) Show less
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1y

na luo it depends on PSV type as my understanding of API520, if it is spring type PSV whose li"
is eected by static pressure, the back pressure is static pressure; for balanced type whose li"
is not eected by static or build up pressure, but the total pressure will eect the PSV rated
capacity; for pilot type, non its li" nor its rated capacity can be eected by back pressure;
static back pressure is caused by others ,It is the result of pressure in the discharge system
coming from other sources and can be constant or variable;
build-up back pressure is caused by itself opening, and increase in pressure at the outlet of a
pressure-relief device that develops as a result of flow a"er the pressure relief
device opens;
we use dierent type back pressure based our requirement and PSV type;
For Flarenet, it mass and energy balance, it we put seal tank operating pressure and other PSVs
Reliefing conditions and relative PSV type, the flare net can calculate back pressure or rated
flow as per API , I think.
pls comment if any correction~~ Show less
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1y

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