| | Vietnam Experience Melvin Laird He became Secretary of Defense during the Nixon Administration from 1969-1973. Laird was quoted as the “architect of Vietnamization,” a plan to bring our soldiers home 1 would like to say that I am delighted to have the opportunity to be with you today. I will be glad to answer any of your questions, My interest in Vietnam operations goes back many years before becoming Secretary of Defense. As you probably know, I was very critical of the Johnson administration, You may hhave read some articles where I felt they had not prepared themselves for the long haul in Vietnam. They kept committing more and more and more. During the Eisenhower administration, there were 371 American troops. Kennedy increased that to 18,000. When I became Secretary of Defense at the end of the Johnson administration, there were $40,000 troops on the ground and another 1,200,000 in the Navy and Air Force in Thailand. There were around 2,000,000 men and women committed to that war when took over as Secretary of Defense. They had “Americanized” the war. They had taken it over and said: “No, you Vietnamese stay away; this is going to be our operation,” I was very critical of that and critical of Secretary McNamara. As the ranking member of the Defense Appropriations Committee, | did not think that war should have been “Americanized.” After becoming Secretary of Defense, I started a new program — “Vietnamization” — turning over more of the responsibility to the Vietnamese every month, with the idea in mind that when I finished my term, there would not be a single American combat troop in Vietnam. We prepared the Vietnamese to take over and to handle their war. At that particular time, we were in the midst of the cold war. The Russians were supplying more than $2.5 billion in arms and ammunition either by railroad or by ship into the north of Vietnam. They were the main suppliers. That is why President Johnson felt he had to challenge the Russians. He did it the wrong way by “Americanizing” the operation completely and not depending more on the Vietnamese to carry out their responsibilities. We immediately began to prepare the Vietnamese to do that In the Paris Peace Accord of January 1973, you will recall that there was an agreement made that we ‘would not supply anything but replacement arms and ammunition, replacement equipment, and replace- ‘ment spare parts. ‘The Russians acquiesced to the same thing. The only problem was that the Russians kept up their flow of arms and ammunition. ‘The Congress in 1975, however, tumed down a request for $350 million dollars for spare parts and ammunition for the South Vietnamese forces, That broke the back of the South Vietnamese because there was nobody else who would supply arms and ammunition. In 1975, we did not have Americans on the ground fighting, but the South Vietnamese needed the pledge that Kissinger made in January 1973 that they would get the replacement arms and ammunition, This action by the Congress broke the back of the South Vietnamese, and there was no will to fight when they found tai Met P2002 DC. Eve Are Sl ucts Page 11Vietnam Experien ce cathe Russians were continuing atthe rate of about $2 billion a year and the United States was not will sng to cary out its pledge ofthe Paris Agreement, ‘The Vietnamization program failed that days the vote ated in the Congress of the United States. I have been critical of Secretary Kissinger, and I have eae ie tial of President Jerry Ford from time to time for not doing more to get a majority vote in the Congtess of the United States at that time, because Kissinger had made that commitment in Paris. We let South Vietnam go down the drain. Now, Iwill be glad to answer any of your questions, but I wanted to give you a litle background. When I became Secretary of Defense, there were ‘three things I wanted to do. 1 wanted to get Americans out of Vietnam, I wanted to turn over the responsibility to South Vietnam, and 1 wanted to end the draft and establish an All-Volunteer Foree. The draft had been used by the United States military since 1939, Any time the Defense Department needed additional people, they could just put out a draft call. That would put pressure on young people to join the Marines, Navy, and the Air Force, and they would fill Army requirements. The draft was very unfair, and President Johnson used it instead of the Guard and Reserve because he thought it would create too much of a political disturbance if we called up various units from around the United States, It was not fair to the people who served because people could get college deferments and everything else. I have the greatest respect and admiration for those individuals called to serve. 1 cannot adequately exprest my affection and appreciation for those who served in Vietnam during that very difficult period. It was not an easy war and many people received deferments, I stopped college Yefermente when I became Secretary of Defense. I set up a lottery system so it would be fai. I did away’ swith the draft and set up the volunteer service, which is serving this country well. J think you will find that every Secretary of Defense since then has supported my position. What were you critical of in prior administrations? First. [felt that they were misleading the people on what the war cost, One ofthe speeches I made while in Congress and serving on the Defense Appropriations Committee outlines my thoughts. By the way, Tllary Clinton helped my staff write that speech. She was interning in my Congressional office. This was before she met Bill Clinton. It was a speech on how we were robbing from NATO, taking things from all over the world — from our military forces, and diverting it to Vietnam. Prepar edness in NATO. ‘was going down the drain, We had taken $10 billion of material to hide $10 billion in costs, as far as the var wes concerned, I thought the American people should be advised and told what the war was cost- ina, not only in human lives and in casualties, but that was certainly the big loss. However, there was also a hidden cost. They did not come to the Congress for approval. Hillary helped on that speech and she is very proud of it, Did you agree with General Westmoreland’s strategy? Well | bad great respect for General Westmoreland, but we did have some disagreements, General Westmoreland was not a great believer in Vietnamization. I called it “Vietnamization”; he was for giv- Tain ae 22002 BC Here Are Sel Pubctins Page 12 assVietnam Experience a ing more and more responsibility to the American forces during that period, In fact, when President Johnson left office, there was still a request on the desk of the President and on Secretary Clark Clifford's desk, for 200,000 more ground combat forces. That was not the way to go. The American people were fed up with that war and you have to have public support if you are going to pursue any kind of a war successfully. Public support had gone down the drain at that particular time. President Nixon beat Hubert Humphrey in the election of 1968 because he promised he would do something about Vietnam, If Hubert Humphrey had broken with Lyndon Johnson and even given some indication of turning over more responsibility to the South Vietnamese, he would have been elected President of the United States. That was a very close election and Nixon would never have been elected President if Humphrey had shown some inclination to change the direction of the war. It was like the campaign when Ike first ran against Stevenson. You probably do not remember this, but you read about it, I’m sure, and he said, “I will go to Korea —we are going to end the war in Korea.” That statement elected Ike by a tremendous majority. Nixon, in 1952, said he had a plan, the Republican platform, in which I wrote, “We will de- ‘Americanize that war.” What was it like working for President Nixon? Thad known him for a long time. I was in Congress with him, as you know, and I traveled with him in his campaigns just as I had traveled with Eisenhower in the 1956 campaign. Nixon was running for Vice President at that time, During my travels with President Nixon, I pointed out various members of the ‘Congress and Senate. My Seventh Congressional District was good to me. They let me take some time off during those campaigns to work with the presidential campaign. I traveled with Nixon during the 1968 campaign on a part-time basis, alternating weekly with Bryce Harlow. Nixon was a very bright and intelligent person. He would have been a great president if he had not lied about the cover-up of Watergate. He did not know about the break-in, but he lied about the cover-up. When I found that out, it was a great disappointment, because he also lied to me. I put that question to him before I went back over to the White House as his Domestic Counsellor. The office of the President of the United States is very important and cannot allow untruths told in order to protect friends, One should not lie — it only becomes deeper and deeper. Nixon lied about the cover-up. He knew about the cover-up and the tapes finally proved it. I remember when I first learned about it, Fred Buzhardt, whom I had recommended to the White House as my general counsel at Defense, came to me at the end of May or early June, and told me that Nixon had lied. ‘The tapes show that he was involved in the cover-up. That was a great mistake and one of my greatest disappoint ments in politics. I could not forgive him for that. Regarding Vietnam, did you and Nixon agree or disagree on American policy? We had disagreements. We had disagreements regarding a faster withdrawal at times. I was for the Cambodian bombing, but I did not want it scoret. Nixon, the Secretary of State, and Kissinger, insisted on keeping it secret. I thought it would be a terrible thing to do because full disclosure is always the best policy. I had twelve thousand men who knew about the bomb- ing of Cambodia. I was all for taking out the North Vietnam eae aaa sanctuaries. They were coming over and hitting our U.S. Sar vernninemmeeneeeneeneemmesenenee tre neeee eee eS aks Mahan "B20 DC Ever Ava Schl Pacts Page [3Vietnam Experience troops. Those sanctuaries in Cambodia were occupied territory of the North Vietnamese. I had no prob- Jem hitting them, not a bit, but I had a problem a se about keeping it secret. ‘The secrecy blew in ‘ The New York Times. Tt was a catastrophe as far as public opinion was concemed. Yes, I did have disagreements but you know, I had my chance to make my case. The day the bombing, ‘was authorized, I told those in the White House that I had 12,000 people who knew about it or would know about it. The operation was large- ly run from Guam and Thailand, 1 is impossi- ble to keep a secret when 12,000 people are involved, Would you have done things differently? Well, I felt that full disclosure was the best way to go. The Pentagon papers caused Kissinger to go “straight up the wall,” and Rogers and President Nixon did not like the Papers being released. I did not release them. They accused me of releasing them, but I did not. ‘The Papers had to do with what had been happening during the seven previous years. The responsibility of running the Department of Defense at that time, included 3,000,000 men and women in the military and 2,000,000 civilian employ- ees, It was, and is now, a big job. I had to get the funds and support from the Congress. It was not just ‘Vietnam, Vietnam was the most important problem, but there were other arcas of the world that were also important. We had just gone through the 1967 war in the Middle East, we had men in Egypt, we had our NATO commitment at the time, we had 200,000 men in NATO at the time, we had 60,000 in Japan, and we had 52,000 in Korea. There were many other places deserving the attention of the Secretary of Defense Do you think Vietnam was a winnable war? 1 think that it would have been a winnable war if it had been prop- erly approached in 1962-63. However, it was not a winnable war unless the South Vietnamese were given the kind of support they needed. You cannot expect Americans to support that sort of an operation for that many years, They had not prepared the Vietnamese at all. We had started preparing the Vietnamese, but then Congress pulled the plug on them in 1975. When the plug ‘was pulled, we did not have any more American combat forces involved. In 1969, you went to Vietnam, Can you describe the event? I think that February or March is when I drew up the Vietnamization program with Abrams. I went to all four corps : areas to visit the troops, and I went from the north down to the Asining dove bya vee nd hentia —- Riverine forces. Admiral Zumwalt commanded the Riverine forces at that time in TV Corps, and I spent a day or two with each corps commander. ee aa "EB002 DG. Erste Sele Piao Page 14Vietnam Experience —_——— How was morale at that time? ‘The morale was always much better than expected, You cannot fault the troops. I disagreed so much with McNamata’s book. In his book, he does not have one good thing to say about a single soldier fight- ing in Vietnam, There are people who performed a dedicated service, and they kept theit morale up bet- ter than imagined. It was not a pleasant place to be. I agreed with President Eisenhower when he disci- plined Vice President Nixon, Nixon said we should be sending combat troops in there, and Ike said never, never get involved in a land war in Southeast Asia. Ike was so right. He was so right, and Nixon had the rug cut out from under him because Nixon thought we should come in and support the French. Ike said that it was not the place to be. Can you explain more about your trip? I spent time trying to seek out young military men, women, and nurses in Saigon, to spend time individ- ually with them, I tried to get a better understanding of the drug problem and the morale problem. I was interested in our people, One of the speeches I gave was about people, not hardware, being the most important thing in the Department of Defense, You can have all the airplanes, all the tanks, all the weapons of war you want, but the people are the important component. ‘Those individuals behind the guns, running the tanks, those in front of the aircraft — all our military personnel supporting our aircraft and ships ~ for them, morale is so important, Was there any certain person that you had a chance to meet who stands out in your mind? I met over 500 of them. I could tell you all sorts of stories, The pictures on the wall tell the story. For ‘example, the one that is hand-painted ~ an enlisted man painted this picture knowing I was coming to vist the troops. Up in Comps they presented me with a Russian sub-machine gun and a Russian rifle ‘They were so proud, You cannot imagine how touching that is. It is tough when you are Secretary of Defense and you see those casualties coming in every day. I wanted to cut the casualties back as fast as T could. Was the purpose of your trip to Vietnam to set up a program? I went to Vietnam to establish a program that we would follow for the next four years. As you know, Abrams was my Commander, Creighton Abrams was one of the greatest Commanders of out Army. He was a tank commander with Patton during World War IL. Do you know Abrams’ history? He always found a way to do something, Westmoreland was in Washington at that time as Chief of Staff of the Army and was always saying, “You cannot | | do it.” Abrams was always saying, “You can do it?” That was the difference -- Abrams was a “can do” general. Did Abrams die three years after the war? Abrams died of complications with cancer, There were many Osbiecemerng wih opin Venom great people over there. I remember a year and half later, after the trip, T was sitting there having dinner with Abrams and the commanders of each of the four corps areas, I was getting fed up with what was happening in Laos. ‘The State Department was running that operation along with the CIA. We were put- ting in many arms, and ammunition to those forces up there, but there was no accountability for their a Taio "2002 DC Bore Are Seton Pubcon Page 15Vietnam Experience actions. I looked down at the end of the table, and there was Jack Vessey. At that time, Vessey’s rank ‘was Major General, and I said we needed a military man in Laos because this thing is getting out of hand. Tasked Abrams if we could spate Vessey if we sent him to Laos, That night we sent Vessey to Laos, and he was there for two and a half years. He came back and later became Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Vessey and I traveled all over Russia when I went there for a national intelligence mission for President Reagan, We were having problems with our US Embassy in Russia, and President Reagan asked me to go and clear it up. Once again, | asked Vessey to help me on an important mission. How did Johnson's administration deal with the Tet offensive? The situation regarding Tet was badly handled by Westmoreland and the military command. That was not a defeat for the American forces; they performed very well. It was not handled well from a public perception. 1 feel badly that the American troops did not get the credit and recognition they deserved for 4a job well done, The only thing I fault was that the Vietnamese depended almost exclusively on the US forces. That was my criticism all the time: the South Vietnamese forces were not being used properly. ‘There were not many North Vietnamese in the country. 1 think that public affairs in Tet were handled badly, providing even more reason why we needed to have a new program and get the South Vietnamese training in high gear. Although I was still in Congress at the time, Tet was not a defeat for our forees. What are your thoughts about the Hmong and the Secret War? My concem for the Hmong is one reason for my sending Jack Vessey to handle things in Laos. The Hmong forces were very good fighters, and they performed very well when they were given the proper ‘arms and ammunition, but you can’t expect the Hmong forces _ to be responsible for closing off the Ho Chi Minh trail. They were not in that league, but they performed well, and I have nothing but the greatest respect for the Hmong forces. I meet with them from time to time. My honest opinion is the Lao situation was not handled very well. They left Vessey’s pred- ecessor up there for many years, and events finally were tumed around when Vessey arrived in 1970. The State Department felt both were independent counties, | and because of their independence, they could not be invaded | or have their borders crossed. They had not declared neutral- ity, although they were supposed to be neutral. I think it was right to hit the sanctuaries, which were controlled by the ‘North Vietnamese forces and the Viet Cong. Thad a disagree- ‘ment with the State Department over that because they were killing Americans by in-and-out raids. In March when I was there, I authorized Abrams to carry on and pursue the enemy. 1 called it “protective reaction," and it drove the State Department up the wall, but I did not think it was right for our forees to chase the enemy and then stop after the enemy crossed the border. ‘Those sanetuaries were responsible for many American casualties. 1 did not support the secret bombing, but I supported the bombing and the incursions into Laos, There is a difference, ——— Tain a ‘O22 De. Evseat Ares Sel ucts Page 16 La wih Kat VieVietnam Experience NY How long did your meeting with Abrams take to establish "Vietnamization?” T convinced Abrams that we had to change our planning with respect to public opinion in the United States. We had to show progress in turning the responsibility to the South Vietnamese. We Americans could not be there forever. Arrangements had to be made to get my Vietnamization program going, At first, Abrams was not gung ho on doing this. I began our conversation and explained to him what was going to take place, He listened, and from then on, he was completely cooperative all the way. I did not have all team players in the Pentagon, but I had a team player in Abrams, They would send back chan- nels to him, and Abrams always shared those back channels with me. Talso had back channels through a different source. As Secretary of Defense, the National Security ‘Agency reported to me. I put my man in there immediately — Admiral Gayler. Never before had any- body been promoted to four stars who held that job. I told him if he did a good job, he would be leav- ing this place wearing four stars, However, at the same time, I also told him that if did a bad job, he ‘would be out of there pretty darn fast. He did a great job, and I was kept well informed on all channels. Tnever had a problem with any military or civilian person not keeping me informed with what they were doing. They might disagree with you, as General Westmoreland disagreed with me on the All-Volunteer Force. Tom Moorer, my Chaitman did not like However, he publicly came along and supported the program. never got Westmoreland to support it 100% but I got General Chapman and four other Chiefs on the Joint Staff to agree with me. It took a while to convince them that the All-Volunteer Force was the way to go. The military thought it was a lot cheaper to use the draft, but I felt the young men and women should be paid on a comparable basis with everyone else in our society. Unfortunately, our service personnel were not sufficiently compensated, and we are still trying to get the pay scale up to the level of firemen and policemen. One of the first things my friend Les Aspin did as Secretary of Defense for a period of nine months, was tty to do away with the retirement program for the mil- itary, He broke the contract and I told Les that I went to the Congress, although no longer in office, and fought this through. We finally changed it back. The military has a far more dangerous job day in and day ‘out. Deployed military cannot spend much time with their family. Not long ago, I met with pilots from Northwest, and Reston of Tite a Hor most of them came from the military. asked why they had left the military ~ was it a question of pay? They said it was not just pay, but they had been deployed on carriers in Europe and around the world and did not see their families for ten months at a time, At Northwest, they are home twenty-two nights a ‘month, Not only are they being paid more, but also they are home! ‘The wives have an influence on this, ‘and you have to consider that. If you use the draft to solve all your military manpower requirements, it isnot fair and it is like a reverse taxation, TD a ve “C2102 DE. Exes As Scola Page I7Vietnam Experience In Vietnam, did you notice any problems with whites and Afro-Americans? From time to time, there have been racial issues; there is no question about that. I did everything could to have a better understanding of those prob- Jems. T cannot say I did not run into racial issues because I did from time to time. People living in close quarters with one another can create friction, but they get along much better than other sections of our society. Tam proud of the way the Navy, Army, ‘Air Force, and Marines handled the situation. [traveled much with a great fighter pilot, Chappie James, He was one of my public affairs people. He ‘an our base in Libya, and when I became Secretary Bese of Defense, | only had sixty days to close that base nnn because Johnson had made that agreement, I called PIGTN Aue eta Alera tbeI up Chappic and told him T wanted everything out of : Libya. He told me he could not do that because the agreement said everything had to stay. I told him to Perce tne anna ‘ly at night and get everything out of there, Chappie reriotnir rn) was a large, towering African American. At the raya a time, he had the rank of colonel. I promoted him to e general, He was something. He was a fighter pilot from Tuskegee and when he got back from Libye, I told bim he was going to work for me in my office in public affairs, He complained to me that he was a fighter pilot and no public affairs offices? told him herhad been a fighter pilot. From then on, we were allright. Once while delivering a speech before the Council of Churches in Chicago, a demonstration erupted, I turned up the microphone because the crowd was chanting, [told them that we would now hear from General James, whom I had just promot: te, and he would lead us in hymns, Chappie stepped up to the microphone and began to sing a beaut fal spiritual hymn. He quieted down the crowd at the Stevens Hotel in the frst few bars ofthat hymn. 1 will never forget it. IVIaaY IN eres (ecerancnC emt cae rnc nt Tell us your thoughts about the anti-war movement. Thad aon in the-anti-war movement. He was a student at Eau Claire, He led a parade in protest of the ‘var, We talked almost every day, Once, he appeared on the front page of The New York Times and I told him he had a perfeet right to be against the war. I told him L understood completely but I had to do every thing I could to terminate out involvement there. I told im I admired him for taking a position The NewYork Times had a great editorial about how handled my son. He married a young lady from Chetek in the summer of 1969, ‘The whole family gathered in Chetek for the wedding and they thought there ‘would be demonstrations. It tuned out to be a lovely, very peaceful event. Did the anti-war demonstrations bother you? Oh sure they bothered me. Nixon and some other members of the Administration did not understand the feelings of these young people. Iremember my niece and her ftend Jim Doyle coming into my office ‘They were in Washington to demonstrate, but I heard they were in town so I invited them to come fo my ——— a Tid Mab "e202 Di. Everest ve Seas Panos Page 18 ayVietnam Experience Pentagon office. It was good to hear their opinion. I sent the Secretary of the Navy and others to listen {o the demonstrators because it was good to hear them out, let them know we were interested in their ‘viewpoint. That was all we could do. ‘They are going to demonstrate anyway, and our responsibilities were quite different from theirs, By the way, my niece and Jim married, and Jim is now Attomey General 4 ‘for the state of Wisconsin, How did you get American troops out of Vietnam? Our first step was to set up a training program for the South Vietnamese forces. We established this as ‘our primary mission ~ to train one platoon at a time. Next, we had to equip them, Our plan was to train and draw down U.S. forces. We probably could have drawn down a little faster but not much faster. The first withdrawal I recommended was 50,000. That was at Midway, President Thieu was there, and he was "against any withdrawals. Kissinger was against any withdrawals, Rodgers was against any withdrawals, ‘Twas fighting for 50,000. They all said you cannot do that, and I said we have to do it. We have to show movement. The President did not give me as much as I wanted -- 25,000. ‘That was the first withdraw- al announced at Midway. The next withdrawal was announced at 90,000, We had to stage it as the South ‘Vietnamese took over. They had not had full responsibility. They did not have the best leadership, and ‘we had to quictly get good people in responsible jobs in their military. Do you think the South Vietnamese could have defeated the North? Ido not think the South Vietnamese could have s defeated the North Vietnamese, but the South would not have had to capitulate, There would shave been a negotiated settlement between the South and the North, I am sure of that. There ‘was no chance of negotiations, with the North ea ‘when they knew there would be no more sup- por ninistociaiers port for the South Vietnamese forces. ‘Therefore, in 1975 I understand what hap- pened, Many South Vietnamese who had real- ly been gung ho wanted to come to the United States as fast as they could, They wanted to get ut of there when they found out there was no ‘military or economic support for them from the United States. Discuss the Christmas bombing in 1972, Hemy Kissinger came back from Paris and briefed us that everything was at a standstill. ‘There was no chance of negotiations and we hhad to do something rather dramatic, On that recommendation, we carried out the bombing. They came back to the peace table in early January. I have the pen on my desk that was used to sign the peace treaty. ‘One ff pes wd eine poe ay. Tell us about the peace treaty. One of the most important things for me was assurance on the POWs. I spent regular time with all POW and MIA wives. They had free access to my office. I took the wives and kids to the Thanksgiving Redskins football game against the Dallas Cowboys. I had them brought in from all over the country. I TOT nREIREErerEToereereeerenrs ee "C2002 DC, Brews Ars School Fable Page 19FE Viemam Experience wanted the POWs to get publicity because the Johnson administration wanted the POW matter kept secret, Harriman, who was negotiating in Paris, even came to see me in January when I announced I was going public on the POW matter. He said going public was a mistake. He felt the enemy would want too much for the POWs for their return, ‘That was not my concern. I did not think they were being treat- ed properly from information coming through mail through the Red Cross. We had certain ways of read ing the letters from the Air Force, ‘They were well trained. That is why we had the Son Tay raid, which Tauthorized, The prisoners had been moved. ‘The Son Tay raid was a beautiful operation, We did not lose a single person, but the prisoners had been moved. The letters we were getting had been delayed several months. ‘The letters were through the International Red Cross. Photo recon was not much help as they kept things covered up. ‘The prisoners were only let out at night, I wanted the return of al pris ners as part of the peace accord. The accord was negotiated and the bombing stopped. The South Vietnamese and North Vietnamese were to be responsible for future negotiations. The United States and the Russians indicated they would supply only equipment, replacement parts, and ammunition. All this was agreed to in Paris on January 31, I was still Secretary of Defense at that time and had not left Defense. ‘There were problems getting Elliot Richardson confirmed. ‘The confirmation process took a couple of months. As soon as he was confirmed, my responsibilities were over, but only after all POWs ‘were returned. What was your reason for leaving? Ido not think people should serve more than four years in that posi- tion, Thad been critical of McNamara and remember telling him that after he had been there six years. I told him one day that he needed a ‘good vacation or a rest because the stories are always the same when you return from Vietnam, | told him no Secretary should serve more than four years. Thad made that statement and felt | should honor it Did you see any of the propaganda coming out of North Vietnam? We saw all the propaganda and we got everything. What was in it? We listened to the broadcasts. We taped all the propaganda coming, out of Hanoi involving our people, They used their names on a regu | lar basis, We had good coverage. What kind of things did it say? I read John MeCain’s book. ‘ving on ayia oer We got their letters, which we decoded, We knew the POWs were being treated very harshly. John McCain, in his book, points out that as soon as I went public about their condition, things improved. ‘Things got better after the Hanoi raid, ‘The Son Tay raid was a great morale booster for those POWs because they knew we cared about them, John McCain is an interesting person, as you know. I served with John MeCain’s grandfather in the Pacific and his grandfather was the first naval officer I ever saw in my life when he came to Marshfield. I appointed John’s father Commander in Chief of the Pacific and then John came to the House of Representatives. His father was a lobbyist for the Navy and was the leg- islative representative for the Navy when he was a young commander while I was on the Defense Appropriations Committee. I regularly walked over to the committee with Rickover on Tuesdays and Tan Sie (Cao? DE. Eves Ae Page 20 ols assVieinam Experience re swith McCain on Wednesdays, They would fill me up with questions, I was in the Longworth building, and we would walk through the tunnel — bending my ear all the way. I knew his old man very well and knew his mother and his aunt, McCain’s mother and her sister were identical twins, While staying with the McCain’s in Hawaii, I asked the Admiral how he could tell the twins apart, His comment was, "that’s their problem, not mine.” I told this story to his son, and he put it in his book. How did McCain's father handle his imprisonment? Very well. He handled it very well; they were threatening to do things to his son. We were getting that from our intelligence sources. McCain, in his book, points out that he did not get any special treatment because of who his father was. Many people do not realize the Marshfield connection with the McCain family. I saw his grandfather on an island in the Pacific, We did not drink on the ship, but when we hit the island, we were allowed four cans of beer. He remembered Marshfield and said he remembered the young kid that followed him around town, Can you comment on Agent Orange? Isiopped Agent Orange. The thing that influenced me most was Admiral Zumwalt who became Chief of ‘Naval Operations. I knew him before he reached that position. 1 passed over a large number of other admirals to appoint him to that post. Many people thought I had made a bad mistake. When I was in four comps in Vietnam, they were using Agent Orange. Zumwalt was using it on the Ho Chi Minh trail, and I became concerned. Agent Orange is a variant of the chemical used along our highways. You have tobe very careful with this stuff. You have to be careful even when using Roundup. Caution must always be exercised when using any type of chemical. 1 did not think Agent Orange was doing too much good ‘on the Ho Chi Minh trail, and we stopped using it. How about the side effects? We did not see the side effects until years later. There have been some health problems. Admiral Zumvalt’s book is a confession of the person who used the chemical. He lost his son, You should read his book about | his use of Agent Orange. McNamara authorized that, I am blamed for many | things, but I think we have to take care of | those troops. We need to recognize that [ this country owes them. I have no prob- Jem with that. You heard the big deal about nerve gas. I never put nerve gas in that area, When I became Secretary of Defense, I found that some very lethal Bis had been shipped to Okinawa, and I immediately got it out of Okinawa and hhad it sent to a remote island, Nobody Used it, but I did not think it should be {E2002 trees Ae Schoo Pblcone Page 21: Vietnam Experience Can you describe the Phoenix program? Bill Colby was running this program to neutralize certain Viet Cong leaders. It was designed to take them out of action. Itis like the program being discussed now in Iraq. ‘The Democratic leaders of both the House and Senate in recent interviews came out in favor by saying that all means possible should be used to take out the leader of Iraq. That is assassination, The Phoenix program did have that as one of its underlying goals. That was approved before I got involved, and we pulled back from that. I did not think it was accomplishing very much. What is your background? Thad a great mother and father, My dad was a Presbyterian minister and also was elected Chairman of the Wood County Board and a Wisconsin State Senator. My mother, a long-time member of the Board of Regents of the University of Wisconsin, also served as head of Mortar Board as a student at the University, and she was very active. My grandmother was one of the first graduates of the University of Wisconsin. My grandfather had been head of the Republican Party when Bob LaFollette was first elect- ed Governor, and then in 1908, Bob LaFollette went to the United States Senate. My grandfather was chairman of the party and Lt. Governor when LaFollette was elected by the legislature to the U.S. Senate. That was the time when my grandfather was very active in getting Bob elected Governor, I have lived around politics all my life, When my father ran for the state senate, I was still in high school, and I made more speeches on his behalf than he did. It was a family interest, and I went to a small school up in Northfield, Minnesota, Carleton College, I attended law school at the University of Wisconsin while in the State Senate. [ still work for Reader’s Digest. I became good friends with the founders. The Digest operates in forty-four countries and publishes in eighteen languages. We are the biggest magazine in Russia, Germany, and Great Britain, and market a lot of magazines, books, and tapes. The owner passed away in 1994 and willed everything they owned to charity, as they had no children. I then became involved in setting up charitable trusts, as we had to unload 50% of the stock by the year 2000. Charitable trusts eannot be used to retain control of a corporation. The trusts were established with $5.5, billion dollars. Getting back to my family, I lost my two older brothers and my youngest brother is for- merly head of the English department at UCLA. He received his Ph.D. in English at the University of Wisconsin, went to Oberlin, and taught there, He lived in Los Angeles, California for thirty years, but is now retired, living here in Marshfield. It is wonderful to have these five lovely women here today for this interview, along with your teacher. You know, there was never a female general or admiral in the history of the Department of Defense until I became Secretary of Defense. They presented me with that picture displayed on the wall at my last luncheon in the Pentagon, Those are the seven women I raised to flag rank. ‘The picture given to me that day was mounted on a different sort of background. 1 considered it too racy so I never used it that way. We cut the top matting off because the women had all signed it at the bottom, but along the top it read, “The Women Mel Laird made at the Pentagon.” Not very appropriate! a eae an spain i ee Psi, Geol Fin aise {ad Men ret Are eho Pabiestons| Page 22,Vietnam Experience Do you have a message for young people about the war? ‘There is no better place to serve your country than in the military. A few years in the military is very good training, and there are great opportunities for young people. I real- ly do feel that way. I have encouraged many people to get involved in the military. My first campaign chairman was D.C. Everest, for whom your school is named. His grandson, John Weaver, was appointed to Annapolis. I used to go down and see him play football at Annapolis and tried to get as many good people as possible appointed there. At one time, I had as many as fifteen appointments at Annapolis, D.C, Everest called me when Reed Murray passed away in 1952 and said I must run for Congress. I was very happy as Chairman of the Legislative Council, a very important role for a state senator in Madison, I thought I would stay in the state legislature and possibly run for governor, but the old man said no, He told me it was important to go to Congress and asked whom I wanted for campaign treasur- et. [ told him about a young man in Stevens Point, Robert Froehike, who had just graduated law school. I mentioned that Froehlke did not have enough position to be released to do that kind of job. D.C. picked up the phone and called Carl Jacobs, who was CEO of the company in Stevens Point, where Froehlke was employed, Everest asked Jacobs how long it would take him to come to Rothschild. Shortly, both the CEO and this young man were in Rothschild, Everest gave Frochlke a check for $10,000 that day, making the first contribution to my election cam- paign. D.C. said it was not his money, he was going to raise it from other people, but the check was a start to the campaign, From that day forward, Frochlke served as Treasurer to all nine campaigns and never accepted a dollar from outside the district, represented the Seventh Congressional District for nine terms until I resigned to become Secretary of Defense. When I got out of the Navy, I was twenty-three and not eligible for the House. Therefore, I ran / for the state Senate, still in Naval uniform. My father hhad passed away, and I was elected to fill his seat, 1 had a very pleasant time in the State Senate and served | as secretary to Gov. Kobiler for a time, performing both jobs. In Congress, 1 was ranking member on Defense and also on Health, Education and Welfare. 1 visited with Jim Bradley (author of “Flags of Our Fathers”) the other day in a restaurant in Pleasantville, New York, near the Digest headquarters, Jim was v iting Pleasantville to speak before the Westchester Marine Corps reunion. ‘The waitress told Jim I was on the second floor of the restaurant, and he came charg- ing up there and asked me to come back downstairs with him, We visited for some time. I knew his old man in Antigo pretty well. He was kind of a recluse there at the end, but I would go up there occasionally and enjoyed spending time with him. Ta ee ‘ozo st Are ScholsPublelane Page 23Vietnam Experience As you know, we are writing a book. Most of our vets are all local guys, and there are many combat veterans, We also have a large number of nurses; some were located in Pleiku and one nurse served ona ship. ‘Those nurses have tough duty, When we saw those nurses in World War II, we all thought it was a big deal. ‘The nurses would come over on the islands occasionally on liberty outings. We had not seen a woman in a long, long, time. I remember when I was hit by a kamikaze; they transferred me to the bat- tleship Wisconsin, Very attractive nurses served on this ship, and 1 was sorry to have to return to my destroyer. Iam proud of the Laird Center building. Bob Froehike raised all the money for this building. We did not want to use federal construction money, although some federal money funds research. Bob raised $18 million dollars in a very short time, Almost all of it from close friends and associates who worked with ‘me in business and government, Bob visited with Dave Packard, who served as my Deputy in Defense. {As a little background, before coming to Defense, Dave served as Chairman of the Board at Stanford and had been on a small advisory board on medical research, I was promoting medical research in Congress. Soon I convinced Dave to come to Washington, and we established the Laird-Packard Team at Defense. We had a great association together. Dave was a fine person to have on board. Anyway, Bob met with Dave in California to gain his interest in contributing to the Laird Building. Dave asked how much Bob wanted, Bob says, "How about a million dollars." Dave wrote a check immediately. The next day Dave called me and said that Bob was the worst fundraiser he had ever seen. Dave said he would have given him five million! All joking aside, Frochike is a good fundraiser. For the University of Wisconsin, Bob "was very successful in securing private, outside funding -- $850 million, He and Donna Shalala were traveling all over the country raising that money. We have a Clinic Board meeting this Thursday and Friday. You may wish to look at the Laird Day Dedication brochure. I think you will get a kick out of some of those articles. Hillary was interviewed the day before the story broke on Monica. You will read she thought about working for me as an intern in the Congress. T do not think she would have given the interview had it been one day later. ‘Thank you for visiting the Laird Center at the Marshfield Clinic campus. Now I would like to take you on a tour of this splendid facility. Melvin Laird served as a member of the House of Representatives for 9 terms from 1950 -1968. He has received several different honorary degrees and has been accredited for a multitude of medical research through the Marshfield Clinic. The Melvin R. Laird Center was erected in honor of Laird in 1998. Interviewed by Meghan Casta, Katie Anderson and Jenni Marcell Pictures taken Prowse ae ea SO Jacalyn Schultz and Kesa Jenks. aa Gea eenscnnsasionnae Page 24