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Augustus: the Roman Messiah

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Pliny correspondence with Trajan: Christians or

Chrestians?

Archaeology of the Great and the Good

Augustus: the Roman Messiah

By John, on May 5th, 2011
The greatest challenge faced by scholarship in this field is to escape the glittering web of false assumptions and
rather, to ground think ing within a secure framework of reliable archaeology. This will lead to profound change. The
history of the Roman Empire how it came into being, how it related to both Judaism and the panhellenic world, and how it moved into
the Byzantine period begs revision. The history of divine men has yet to be written. (The vacuum of evidence for pre-4th century
Christianity by John Bartram, History Hunters International, 2011)
2

Here is one, small example.

Julius Caesar (left) became God - Divus Iulius on 1 January 42 BCE and his
adopted son, Augustus (right) became the Son of God Divi Filius 15 years
later.
As Octavian, the latter had been elected to the College of Pontiffs in 47 BCE and
in January of 27 BCE, the Senate gave Octavian the new titles of Augustus and
Princeps that of Augustus was a title of religious rather than political authority.
On 6 March 12 BCE, he took up the position of Pontifex Maximus, the high priest
of the collegium of the Pontifices, the most important position in Roman religion.
As Augustus, the emperor unified Church and State, and in a manner a mere king
had not. It is this difference and how I interpret it that prompts this post.
It is often said that the history of Europe can be defined by the relationship between Church and State. By Europe is meant Christendom
and the Church is also, of course, Christian. It is appropriate that a discussion of Augustus in relation to Church and State makes
reference to Christendom.
That the title of Pontiff is now applied to the Pope and the title Son of God is applied to Augustus are observations made so frequently as
to be commonplace. They are usually dismissed as of no import, as unrelated to what is described by the Church for both itself and its
divine man as its uniquely-special characteristics. In my opinion, this dismissal is wrong and further, hides another truth: that the
Emperor Augustus is also a messiah.

Augustus AR Denarius Struck circa 19-18 BCE

CAESAR AVGVSTVS laureate head right DIVVS IVLIV[S]
The term Messiah is so heavy with emotional baggage that it will be wise for us to try to take a moderate view. A messiah unifies the
offices of priest and king, and need not be Jewish, as we see in this description:
Messiahs appear in many religions including Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In the Hebrew Bible messiahs are priests and kings
who were traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil as described in Exodus 30:22-25.
The literal translation of the word, messiah (moshiach), is anointed, which refers to a ritual of consecrating someone or
something by putting holy oil upon it.[1 Sam. 10:1-2] It is used throughout the Jewish Bible in reference to a wide variety of
individuals and objects; for example, a Jewish king,[1 Kings 1:39] Jewish priests,[Lev. 4:3] and prophets,[Isa. 61:1] the Jewish
Temple and its utensils,[Ex. 40:9-11] unleavened bread,[Num. 6:15] and a non-Jewish king (Cyrus king of Persia).[Isa. 45:1]

Apotheosis
This is how that last biblical reference puts it: This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I tak e hold of to
subdue nations before him
This is Cyrus the Great (c. 600 BCE or 576 BC530 BCE), also known as Cyrus II or Cyrus of Persia, founder of the Persian Empire
under the Achaemenid dynasty.
His son and successor Cambyses II son conquered Egypt in 525 B.C.E.
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While Cambyses II was in Egypt, the Zoroastrian priests, whom

Herodotus called Magi, usurped the throne for one of their own,
Gaumata.
The historical account of this is not accepted by some modern
historians, who believe that the person who ruled for a few months was
the real son of Cyrus, and that the story of his impersonation by a
magus was an invention of Darius to justify his seizure of the throne.
When his brother, king Cambyses, was conquering Egypt, someone
calling himself Smerdis rebelled and became sole ruler of the
Achaemenid empire after Cambyses had died of natural causes.
According to the Behistun inscription, this Smerdis rule started on 11
March 522 BCE, and this is corroborated by the dating of letters in
Babylonia; on 1 July he formally became king. The new king was
killed, however, by the Persian prince Darius, on 29 September in a
stronghold in Media called Sikayauvati.
Darius states in the Behistun inscription that the man he had now
succeeded was not the real Smerdis (who he claims was killed before
Cambyses set out for Egypt) and that the rebel was a lookalike named
Gaumta. This man was a Magian and there are some indications that
Magians were not Persians but Medes. (Livius)
I agree with the view that this Gaumata is inspiration for Siddh?rtha
Gautama, the Buddha. What has this to do with Augustus? We will get
there shortly.
The process by which first, the pharaohs, then their Iranian conquerors
claimed divinity is known as apotheosis: to deify, in Latin deificatio,
to make divine is the exaltation of a subject to divine level.
The four w inged guardian figure representing Cyrus the Great, a bas-relief
found at Pasargadae on top of w hich w as once inscribed in three
languages the sentence "I am Cyrus the king, an Achaemenian."

Prior to the Hellenistic period, imperial cults were known in Ancient

Egypt (pharaohs) and Mesopotamia (since Naram-Sin). From the New
Kingdom, all deceased pharaohs were deified as Osiris. (Apotheosis:

Wikipedia).
In the Greek world, the first leader who accorded himself divine honours was Philip II of Macedon, who was a king, when the Greeks
had set kingship aside, and who had extensive economic and military ties, though largely antagonistic, with Achaemenid Persia,
where kings were divine. At his wedding to his sixth wife, Philip s enthroned image was carried in procession among the Olympian
gods; his example at Aigai became a custom, passing to the Macedonian kings who were later worshipped in Greek Asia, from
them to Julius Caesar and so to the emperors of Rome.

Panhellenism
The Iranian conquest of Egypt and then the Macedonian conquest of Iran (with Egypt along the way) is, as I see it, the fulfillment of the
desire to become divine. Just as the Iranian kings wanted to become emperors and divine, so did Philip II and Alexander.
We (at History Hunters International) have defined Panhellenism as different to paganism, for although the Greek understanding of theos
is not Judaic is not YHW it can and does at times mean God . A believer in God is not pagan, in our view.
This brings us to Augustus:
The Greek peninsula came under Roman rule in 146 BCE, Macedonia being a Roman province, while southern Greece came under
the surveillance of Macedonia s praefect. However, some Greek poleis managed to maintain a partial independence and avoid
taxation. The Aegean islands were added to this territory in 133 BCE. Athens and other Greek cities revolted in 88 BCE, and the
peninsula was crushed by the Roman general Sulla. The Roman civil wars devastated the land even further, until Augustus
organized the peninsula as the province of Achaea in 27 BCE.
The how and why of the death of Alexander has continued ever since, with the stronger argument for assassination after his adoption of
apotheosis.
Julius Caesar was the first historical Roman to be officially deified and although his temple was not dedicated until after his death, he
may have received divine honours during his lifetime. Shortly before his assassination, Mark Antony had been appointed as his flamen
(priest).
Neither Greek, nor Roman took to apotheosis of their leader easily.
Augustus is a not a typical Roman: his cultural heritage is Greek. Seutonius:
3 His father Gaius Octavius was from the beginning of his life a man of wealth and repute, and I cannot but wonder that some have
said that he too was a money-changer
Macedonia fell to his lot at the end of his praetorship he wiped out a band of runaway slaves, refugees from the armies of
Spartacus and Catiline, who held possession of the country about Thurii. In governing his province he showed equal justice and
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courage; for besides routing the Bessi and the other Thracians in a great battle, his treatment of our allies was such, that Marcus
Cicero, in letters which are still in existence, urges and admonishes his brother Quintus, who at the time was serving as proconsular
governor4 of Asia with no great credit to himself, to imitate his neighbour Octavius in winning the favour of our allies.
7 In his infancy he was given the surname Thurinus in memory of the home of his ancestors, or else because it was near Thurii that
his father Octavius, shortly after the birth of his son, had gained his victory over the runaway slaves.
2 When Caesar, after recovering the Spanish provinces, planned an expedition against the Dacians and then against the Parthians,
Augustus, who had been sent on in advance to Apollonia, devoted his leisure to study.
This town in Italy is Greek and colonists were at length allayed by the oracle of Delphi, which decided that the city had no other founder
than Apollo.
His mother married a former governor of Syria, Lucius Marcius Philippus, who claimed descent from Alexander the Great.
He was put in charge of the Greek games that were staged in honour of the Temple of Venus Genetrix, built by Julius Caesar and
when Caesar was killed, Octavius was studying and undergoing military training in Apollonia, Illyria.
Herodotus found the Oracle of Dionysus in the land of the Satrians remarkable: [...] it is a prophetess who utters the oracles, as at
Delphi. The account by Suetonius of the visit paid by his father to the Temple of Dionysus in the Rhodope, where the prophets sat in a
roofless oval chamber:
When Octavian, father of Augustus, at the head of his army, came upon the Holy Mount of Dionysus, he consulted the oracle
about his son, and the prophets said to him that his son was to rule the world, for as the wine was spilt onto the altar, the smoke
rose up above the top of the shrine and even unto heavens, as had happened when Alexander the Great himself had sacrificed upon
that same altar.
This is all, of course, in the same Panhellenistic manner as the numerous tales of Philip and Alexander visiting oracles for divine support
of their worldly claims and for their divinity, which is surely the whole point. Vespasian and other, later claimants to the imperial throne did
the same it is such a Panhellenistic tradition as to be expected.
The presence of a statue of Livia, wife of Augustus, in the Villa of the Mysteries, some 400 meters north-west of Pompeii, has caused
some historians to declare her to be the owner.

Scene VII in the Villa de Misteri (Pompeii)

Initiation into the Dionysian Mysteries: under the imperial purple is probably a Herm, standing in a winnowing fan.
The winnowing fan (lknon also meaning a cradle) featured in the rites accorded Dionysus and in the Eleusinian Mysteries, and in the
birth narratives of Sargon the Great, Moses and Jesus.
The villa sustained only minor damage in the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 CE and the majority of its walls, ceilings, and most particularly its
frescoes survived largely undamaged. The most common interpretation of the images is scenes of the initiation of a woman into a special
cult of Dionysus.
These frescoes are telling us a great deal more than will be mentioned here, at this time the Herm, for example, coming
from Kriophoros Hermes, who becomes the Shepherd of Hermas and the Good Shepherd, the imperial purple and use of the cloth to
cover the Herm suffice to note here how the most elite Romans in the time and place of Augustus are following the Panhellenistic
tradition which will become known in the fourth century as Christian.
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This history is denied by Christian tradition. For example:

Distinction from Dei Filius
The term used for Julius Caesar and the deified emperors was divus, not deus , the
word used for gods such as Jupiter and Mars. Augustus was thus called Divi Filius,
not Dei Filius, the phrase that Christians used of Jesus.
Such arguments are the bread and butter of biblical scholarship and divinity schools. This,
however, is both nonsensical and vacuous.
It is nonsensical because it compares apples with oranges: how Son of God for
Augustus was written in the past era, with a later time. Further, in relation to Augustus,
the expression is in Latin Divi Filiu and when first used for Jesus, in the gospels, it is
in Greek and over a century later. By the time Son of God for Jesus appears in Latin, it is
centuries after Augustus.
Even so and ever curious, I checked how Son of God was used in the Gospel of John
within the oldest two codices of the New Testament: Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. (The
oldest fragments of this gospel are dated to the reign of Hadrian and we date this gospel
as the earliest of the four canonical.)

Kriophoros Hermes ('w hich takes the lamb'), lateRoman copy of Greek original from the fifth century
BCE. Barracco Museum, Rom

(You may note, as an aside, how the numbering of the verses does not follow those used in bibles commonly today I do not know why
this is so.)

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The answer is shown to be that, instead of spelling out God , an abbreviation of two Greek letters is used in both codices, so we do not
know how God is spelled in this Greek gospel.
Official portraits of Augustus made towards the end of his life continued to portray him as a handsome youth, implying that miraculously,
he never aged and given that few in his empire had ever seen the emperor, these images sent a distinct message.
The inscription DF came to be used for Augustus and across the Roman dominions, he was regarded as both divine and the Son of
God ; sometimes he used the term divi Iuli filius. Augustus is confirmed as both a historical figure and Son of God , neither of which
can be demonstrated for Jesus Christ.
The Latin term deus is used for gods such as Jupiter, Mars and later, for Jesus Christ, placing him amidst the sky gods of Roman
mythology.

King of Kings
Herod was the second son of Antipater the Idumaean and in 43 BCE, following the chaos caused by Antipater offering financial support to
Caesar s murderers, Antipater was poisoned. Herod, backed by the Roman Army, executed his father s murderer.
Though the Edomites and many Nabateans had been converted to Judaism by the Hasmoneans, their status within Judaism was low at
best and rejected by many.
Herod was elected King of the Jews by the Roman Senate in 40 or 39 BCE. When Herod took the role as sole ruler of Judea, his title
became basileus and so he became a Roman client king of Judea.
After the death of Herod in 4 BCE, Judea was added to the province of Syria when Augustus deposed his successor Herod Archelaus for
being mentally incompetent. Syria was governed not by a proconsul or legate of Augustus, but a high prefect of the equestrian class.
Augustus then combined Samaria, Judea proper and Idumea into Iudaea province under rule of a prefect till 41.
Augustus the priest-king of Rome, Emperor and Son of God not Herod, was the most-high ruler of Judea, the king of kings.
This post is a mere sketch of the theology of
Augustus as emperor, pontifex maximus, Son of
God and, in effect as priest and king, messiah.
There is both the history and archaeology of his
active interest in Panhellenism to be treated,
such as in Thrace and Pontus.
The Augustan Pantheon, rebuilt by Hadrian, is
probably the most spectacular and unambiguous
demonstration of his Panhellenism.
The image left shows how at the vernal equinox
the date of Easter was set as the first Sunday
after the the Paschal Full Moon following the
northern hemisphere s vernal equinox - the rays
of the sun enter through the oculus and
illuminate the emperor.
Thus Helios and Augustus unite, as Church and State unite, as a Panhellenistic messiah.
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An army of divine men and the secret army of Mithras (21.1)

Mani and Authorship of the Canonical Gospels (17)
Romans at Stonehenge: from standing stones to cosmic pillars (16.1)
The Gospels According to Hadrian, Part III: The Aelian Canon and the Main Hand of God (14.1)
When evil mixed itself with good and befuddled the world (14.1)
Pliny correspondence with Trajan: Christians or Chrestians? (12)
The Pantheon: Hadrian s giant sundial (12)
Archaeology of a first-century wizard (11.1)
Lifting the Vaults of Heavenly and Earthly Peace (11.1)
Acts of the Chresmologoi: the Role of Oracles and Chronicles in the Creation of Divine Men (11)

May 5th, 2011 Tags: Alexander the god, Alexander the Great, Christianity, divinity, egypt, Egyptology, gospels, Greco-India, Greco-Roman, Greek
magic, Hadrian, Helios, history, Josephus, Judea, messiah, mithras, New Testament, panhellenism, Pantheon, Paul of Tarsus, persia,
religion, Roman Empire, sun Category: Alexander III of Macedon, chrestology, Digging deeper, Greco-India, Roman Empire, The History of
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Ranajitpal
I liked reading this article but I have a very different take. I have written ( http://ranajitpal-jesus-from-a... ) that Amyntas of
Galatia was Jesus whose name was Amen (Rev. iii. 14). This turns Augustus into a villain.
9 months ago

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Dear Dr Pal,
Thank you very much for both the attention you give this piece and for your studies, which I find both valuable and refreshing.
You may well be right, that there is a historical basis for Jesus and this is some Phrygian of the last century of the past era. I can
see that such a character would fit well with our view of chrestic history. I will read your article with great interest.
I don't know that Augustus needs to be turned into anything, even a villain: he is what he is and Greco-Roman dynasts did not
have to win popular votes.
All the best,
John

9 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Dear John,Only if you recognize the Jesus Amen of India (Amyntas Nikator), can you recognize St. Thomas who was Hermaeus
Soter. I wish writers such as Robin Lane Fox had been aware of the true quality of their work on Jesus that banishes St. Paul, St.
Thomas, St. Mathew and all the others. I liked his book on Alexander but his 'The Classical World' is very one-sided.
6 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Deiotarus' monogram on the reverse of some coins of Hermaios Soter (Bopearachchi
Srie 9B; SNG ANS 1349-50) clearly points to his family links with Deiotarus and his Galatian ancestry. Only the chronological
chaos obscures the possibility that Hermaios was St. Thomas who converted both Gondophares Soter and Kujula Kadphises.
Yavugasa Dharma was a name of Chrstianity which belonged to a slightly earlier era (25 B.C.).
5 months ago

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Ranajitpal
As the Galatian ancestry of Hermaios shows, the term Indo-Greek has been used rather carelessly. If Hermaios was a Galatian,
so was Amyntas who is almost his 'twin' in the coins. In the gospels also Jesus and Thomas are described as 'Twins'.
5 months ago

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Ranajitpal
R. C. Senior has recently revised the date of Gondophares Soter to 20-10 B.C. which is very significant. If one takes
Gondophares Soter Soter as a Christian, Amyntas Nikator and Hermaios Soter whose coins are similar, must also be seen as a
Christians. Senior dates Hermaios to 90-70 B.C. which is far less satisfactory than Sir William Tarn's dating of 40-1 B.C.
Amyntas Nikator was the same as Amyntas of Galatia who had survived crucifixion.
5 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Dear John,
Francesco Carotta has recently focused on the Roman Background of Christianity. I cannot agree with his view that the gospels
grew out of the Julius Caesar myth but in my scheme also Julius Caesar and Cleopatra were the forerunners of Christ. Julius
Caesar must have known Amyntas. King Deiotarus' donning of a supplicant's dress and begging for forgiveness from Julius
Caesar was one of the most dramatic episodes of history. Caesar restored his royal dress but was young Amyntas present at the
occasion? As Cicero reminds us Julius Caesar had reasons to be grateful to Deiotarus, the father of Adobogiona. The fact that
Antony made Amyntas the king of Galatia has to be seen from this perspective. Cicero is recorded to have said to Julius Caesar:
"... for it was king Deiotarus who raised your family, when abject and obscure, from darkness into light. Who ever heard of your
father, or who he was, before they heard whose son-in-law he was?
I am intrigued. John do you have an opinion on this?
5 months ago

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History Hunters International

Dear Ranajit,
Sorry I am late here: somehow I have missed the notifications.
I will have to pre-empt some of this discussion, for we are now in a position to name the historical character which became the
Isu Chrest and Is Chrest of Manicheism and the New Testament. We are trying to get out a paper for the Christmas Season.
I have been corresponding with leading numismatists specialising in this period and region, including Bob Senior. My first
comment is that they have missed some archaeology which makes a good identification of an important king of kings; my
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second comment is that they are all struggling to understand monarchical naming conventions. A modern example: Prince
Charles is also a Windsor, Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall, as well as holding other titles. A royal can be known by various
titles (and these will also be translated into the languages of other nations). Gondophares could be simply 'Lord of Kandahar' or
similar and rather than be strictly a dynastic title (which is the current opinion), may be a title used by an heir, or for a subdomain
of a king of kings. The whole field of Greco-Indian kings (Bacrtria, Parthia, Gandahar etc) in this period is uncertain.
'History' has been dominated by the West, which is to say. a Greco-Roman, classical perspective - as you have pointed out - and
much of the 1st century is drawn on Josephus. This is a very dangerous thing to do, for not only is he a 'player' in these events,
he is both very devious and one of the few survivors to write history. On what basis does the Parthian Empire in the modern era
rest?
Frankly, history for the first five centuries needs a complete revision.
All the best and
Kind regards,
John
5 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Dear John,
Thanks for your input. I might quote your opinion on Josephus in a paper that I am now writing. But the way the history of the
Indo-Greeks has been written is preposterous. But the rot starts with Jones, then Chandragupta and Asoka. Unless you
recognize them correctly you cannot come to 1st century B.C. with a clean hand. Many of the 'Indo-Greeks', were, in my opinion,
actually 'Indo-Galatians' or 'Syrians'. I have identified Asoka as Diodotus-I Soter, who may have been supported by his master
Antiochus-II Soter who is often called a Syrian king. Asoka refers to Antiuku in a very intimate tone in his edicts. Much is written
about the greatness of Asoka but some mention must be made of the benevolent disposition of Antiochus-II Soter. Can any sane
person miss the religious aura in Hermaus' coins? But which religion can this be other than Christianity? Of course, you can call
it Mahayana Buddhism too. The example of Hermaeus shows how history has been disfigured. I am in close touch with Prof. T.
McEvilley and he also sees the problems in the dating of Jesus Christ.
Best wishes,
Ranajit Pal
4 months ago

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History Hunters International

Dear Ranajit,
The theological character of Hellenism in Iran is clear, yet obfuscated repeated by many historians. I have lost count, for
example, of the number of times I have read attempts to interpret Soter/Saviour as 'saving a city from an attacker' and other such
military interpretations, when clearly Soter/Saviour is theological in character, as seen much later in the New Testament. This is
why we have begun to use here the term 'Panhellenism' to describe those of Greek culture who clearly are theist. It is such kings
who use the title 'Chrest' meaning 'Good' and this is how the Isa of Manicheism became the Isa Chrest of the gospels, later to be
altered crudely to 'Jesus Christ'.
We have recently published a paper here suggesting that the Edicts of Asoka belong to the 1st century of the modern era and the
author is that character named by Josephus as Izates (Izates II of Adiabene). Eisenman also suggests that it is this Izates who
is addressed in the only letter (MMT) within the Dead Sea Scrolls "To the Great King of the Peoples across the Euphrates".
We here at HHI are now reasonably sure who is this Izates in the archaeological record and intend to publish this identification
soon.
Just as the historical framework of the NT is drawn on Josephus, so too did he provide the elements used much later to construct
'Jesus Christ' - and this 'Izates' character is one of them.
Best regards,
John
4 months ago

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Ranajitpal

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Dear John,
Why would you go to Mani, and ignore Mithradates Chrestus who was the elder brother of Mithradates VI Eupator and related to
Adobogiona, the mother of Amyntas or Amen? Amyntas' palace was at Isauria which hints at his name Isa.
Best regards,
Ranajit Pal
3 months ago

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Dear Ranajit,
First, we must deal with the question of what is history and what is legend. I attempted to do this for Alexander the Great with my
first posts to HHI. The Greek legend of Isauria derives from the Anabasis Alexandri of Arrian, which belongs to the modern era
and is no more a history of Seleukia and the Successors of Alexander than the NT gospels are a history of Judea and a divine
man of the 1st century. That I mention these two modern sources of cultural legend together is not coincidental, for they are
surely linked.
There is no evidence that any of the authors of 'Alexander histories' in the modern era actually had the sources they claimed.
Alexander was a god in this period, so anything is possible, including the possibility that it was all invented. The Anabasis
Alexandri is now considered to be a reworking of material from Ptolemy: both authors - Arrian and Ptolemy - were close to
Hadrian, who invented a new religion based on the divinity of the catamite (Antinous) he sacrificed in the Nile. It is quite possible
that they all worked together in creating the divine Alexander.
(I could also speculate a little further on the name Arrian, which reminds me of both the speculative bishop Arius of a later period,
and even of Aria, in Greco-India. I would need reliable archaeology to convince me of anything in this period.)
Isauria first appears in the time of Publius Servilius Vatia Isauricus, Julius Caesar, Pompey the Great, Mark Antony and so on,
and who are the contemporaries of the family/dynasty (parents) of Isa/Izates. In that sense, I would agree with you that quite
possibly there is a connection, though of that century, rather than earlier.
This is the period in which the two opposing parties begin to emerge whose conflict bursts into the flames of the three JewishRoman Wars and which eventually gives rise to Chrestianity and then Christianity. These are: (1) the Chrestians, that party of
Antonia Minor and the Alabarch of Alexandria; and (2) the Jewish Resistance to Hellenism in general and the Herodian dynasty in
particular, which gains Izates/Isa as its ally.
That is, Jesus and the Chrestians are two opposing and warring parties, not a divine man named Jesus Christ/Chrest. The Roman
Church (first Chrestian in the 4th century, then Christian in the 5th) is an attempt to merge these two parties, along with a third,
the Religio Romana, the established religious order of Rome. It is in this merger that Hellenistic, royal titles such as Savour, Lord,
Master and Good (Chrest) are taken and applied to Isa, to make Isa the Good of the earliest NT codices, then Jesus Christ.
You are especially good, Ranajit, as seeing past the legend and mythology posing as history, so I expect and hope that you can
see your way out of 'the glittering web' of this period and see divine men such as Alexander and Jesus for what they are.
Kind regards,
John
3 months ago

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Ranajitpal
John, my argument is very simple. The oldest Christian establishments were the churches mentioned by St. Paul at Lystra,
Derbe, Antioch in Pisidia. But there is a haunting presence of one Amen or Amyntas in all these places. Who was this Amyntas
whose palace was at Isauria? Remember Antioch (Pisidian) was the sister city of Lystra and Tavium where Amyntas' father
Brogitarus had his palace. Amyntas was the son of the chief priestess of the holy Pessinus shrine, and thus a legitimate 'son of
god'. Why did Augustus, the false 'son of god' destroy Amyntas' shrine at Antioch (Pisidia) and install his own cult here? S.
Mitchell writes about Amyntas but does not have any clue. Should we all follow him?
3 months ago
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Dear Ranajit,
For our discussions to make progress, we have to ground our history in secure archaeology and that means - for a start not placing our faith in the New Testament as an historical account of 1st-century Judea. Second and as we have stated
repeatedly, we accept here the analysis of Eisenman that "St Paul" is likely the Saul of Josephus and the "Spouter of
Lies" in the Dead Sea Scrolls; that is, there is no "St Paul" - this is a fabrication of a much later date.
Next, as you mention the "oldest Christian establishments", we have not found any clear and reliable archaeological
evidence for Christianity before the 5th century.
A small point: Augustus is not "the false 'son of god'" as you describe him, for the archaeological record is quite clear
that (a) he was the adopted son of Caesar and (b) declared officially divine, which made him the proper Son of God. There
is nothing false about it.
You describe some of the purported "history" - what is the source of this? I ask because earlier I posted: "The Greek
legend of Isauria derives from the Anabasis Alexandri of Arrian, which belongs to the modern era and is no more a history
of Seleukia and the Successors of Alexander than the NT gospels are a history of Judea and a divine man of the 1st
century."
We must be careful to try and avoid discussing legend as if it were history; that's why we take an archaeological
approach.
Kind regards,
John
3 months ago in repl to Ranajitpal

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Ranajitpal
Diodorus Siculus, XVIII, 22
3 months ago

Ranajitpal
Strabo speaks of two cities, Isaura Pala, and Isaura Nova and the information has been verified by archaeology. In 266 AD
Trebullian made Isaura his capital, but he was slain the next year. Isaura Nova is now Dorla in the sanjak and vilayet of Koniah.
W. Ramsay discovered there recently more than fifty Greek inscriptions, the greater number Christian, as well as magnificent
tombs.
3 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Augustus was not a son of Julius caesar and thus not a legitimate 'son of god' but Amyntas was the son of the chief priestess of
Pessinus, the holiest shrine in the Roman world..The remains of Amyntas' temple at Antioch and the walls of his Palace at Isaura
have been found by archaeologists.
3 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Cleopatra's son, whom Augustus killed, was a true 'son of god' .
3 months ago

Ranajitpal

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Dear John,
What does Eisenman say about Jesus?
3 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Dear John,
I found your comment on
> divine men such as Alexander and Jesus<
very interesting. It is well known that Alexander emulated Ammon and Heracles. Ory Amitay has no clue why he also emulated
Hermes and Artemis. Incidentally in the coins of Amyntas of Galatia one finds not only Heracles' lion but also Hermes and
Artemis.
3 months ago

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History Hunters International

Dear Ranajit,
That's a lot of posts... I will try to answer with one.
Thank you for providing your source. I think one should be careful in just repeating exerts from what are claimed to be ancient
histories, more especially when, as with this one, he has a reputation as a liar; and the medieval texts upon which the later
translations are made do not exist and nor do those texts which the author claims to have based his work. Further, even of we
accepted these texts, the author is renowned for puffery of Greek culture. All in all, I would not assume that we can trust these
texts as good history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...
http://www.tertullian.org/rpea...
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/T...
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/T...
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/T...
Strabo wrote in the modern era. Ramsay is not "recent" - he died in 1939 - and he made the fundamental error I mentioned
earlier, of assuming that the New Testament was a history of Judea in the early 1st century, which it is not.
As I wrote repeatedly, Augustus was the adopted son of Caesar: "Julius Caesar (left) became God - Divus Iulius on 1 January
42 BCE and his adopted son, Augustus (right) became the Son of God Divi Filius 15 years later." That is official and in
Roman law, legitimate.
I think you have a good point with the son of Cleopatra, only I would expand it. I have a feeling that the Donations of Alexandria
are of fundamental importance to the founding of the Roman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...
Eisenman is coy about 'Jesus'. I think he probably accepts (for the wrong reason - James the Just, "brother of the Lord") that
there is some sort of historical Jesus, but does not identify him as a character in the historical record, something I am preparing
to do soon, only not with that name, but that used in (the original Greek of) the NT, in the Manichean texts and the Qur'an:
Is/Isu/Isa.
Kind regards,
John
3 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Dear John,
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Hermes leads one to the great Hermaeus Soter who, I think was none other than St. Thomas. Recently I had the good fortune to
meet Prof. A. K. Narain, the great expert on Indo-Greeks. He is 87 and not in very good health. I showed him my unfinished paper
on Jesus and Hermeus but unfortunately he did not comment on it. He became very agitated but treated me with great kindness.
I was surprised that he did not know about my work on Diodotus-I but when I visited him the next day he comlimented me saying
that 'You have said that Diodotus-I was Ashoka - it is very interesting'. I have not come across any scholar who is more openminded and more learned than Prof. A. K. Narain. He was once the the darling of the London community of historians and
numismatists.
3 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Dear John,
In my view, Hermes leads one to the great Hermaeus Soter of India whom I identify as St. Thomas. Recenty I met Prof. A. K.
Narain, the famous expert on the Indo-Greeks. He is 87 and not in very good health. I showed him my unfinished paper on Jesus
Amyntas and Hermaeus and he became very agitated but treated me with great kindness. He did not comment on my work on
Hermaeus and I was surprised that he did not even know about my work on Diodotus-I. But when I visited him the next day he
was very warm and complimented me saying 'You have said that Diodtus-I is Ashoka - very interesting'. I have never come across
any scholar who is more open-minded and more learned than Prof. Narain. He was once the darling of the London community of
historians.
3 months ago

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Ranajitpal
Dear John,
Sorry for posting the same matter twice. My computer is slow and I had the idea that the first comment did not register. I am a
great admirer of Sir Ronald Syme and he says that the term 'dictator' fits Augustus much better than Julius Caesar and also
that it was Augustus who encouraged the Roman writers to vilify Julius Caesar his 'father'. Ovid did not comply and was banished.
This propaganda misled Shakespeare and many historians.

3 months ago

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