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BriThai
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 25

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Posted 04/12/04

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#1

Some people may have seen a system of fighting art slated on the net a few times its called the Machine, and a guy called John Urwin claims to have been taught it in
the 1950s when he was chosen to fight in a secret unit in the army...... All the
slating's I have seen of this system have been by people that have not seen it, in
real or film form. So, me being inquisitive, I went and had a look.
Note - this is not meant to try and convert anyone form Systema. I don't teach this
"Machine", and merely include this in the hope that some of you find it interesting.
Here goes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Visit to John Urwins UCTC

On Friday 3rd December 2004 I arrived in the North East in order to meet members of
the Urwins Combat Training Centre. This is the system that has received so much
bad press on the internet, mostly because of John Urwins claim that he was part of a
secret assassination squad in the 1950s called "The Sixteen." I met Kevin Fitzpatrick,
the guy who usually gets the internet abuse from an assortment of clowns, at his
home address. He is a member of the UCTC and has been for many years. He is also
the main man behind the marketing of it, within the restrictions set by John. I had
met Kevin a few days previously in Manchester, and we had already spent 3-4 hours
discussing all aspects of different fighting arts. What strikes me most about him is his
enthusiasm for the method he studies, as well as how inoffensive he is; especially
since he has been subject to some fairly ignorant ridicule from people who seem to
base their views on very little actual evidence, and then spew it out with extra
venom.
We arrived at the training hall in Newcastle at about 1pm. There were three other
interested people there also. We stated with a general conversation about the state
of the fighting arts, moving onto a wider conversation about the general terrorist
threat. The system itself is not just an unarmed combatives type affair. It also
involves armed fighting, assassination, espionage etc., and is designed for a military
application. I made it clear that my own personal interest was merely in the unarmed
fighting. He told us that he was not instructing us in the system today, and was
merely there to give us an overview of it.
John Urwin himself is in his 60s but looks reasonably fit for his age. He is about 5 feet
seven inches tall and quite broad. He claims to have been subjected to a process
called "one step beyond" which involved a 24 hour period where his trainer took him
to a point of total emotional trauma. All life was deemed worthless and the futility of
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it made plain. Then, from this totally depressed and suicidal state, he was built back
up to a level where he no longer has a fear of death. This lack of fear is, he says,
necessary in order that his techniques can be applied skilfully and dispassionately.
There is certainly something unsettling about him. He stares right at you as he talks
and gives off a disturbing air of being dangerous. I noticed that the other people also
seemed a little nervous of him. But, as for the "one step beyond" process, I have no
idea whether it occurred or not.
We moved into the training hall and listened to John explaining aspects of what he
has to offer. His fighting system is based on a basic set of robotic movements called
"The Machine". The head is held fairly rigid, the arms move in criss-crossing patterns
at a high, medium or low level, with the elbows are largely held very close to the
body. This necessitates a great deal of torso twisting and footwork to ensure that
the target is reached and the surrounding area surveyed by the fighter. This body
shifting also ensures that bodyweight is used during strikes, pushing and pulling
movement. Attacks are often targeted to the throat and eyes, and other moves such
as neck breaks, arm breaks and weapon disarms are used. It is difficult to explain on
the printed page, but the moves remind me a little of Wing Chun in parts, with the
underlying philosophy occasionally similar to Senshido. Dont get me wrong. It is
neither of these arts, but some similarities exist on one or two levels.
One of the underlying philosophies of the fighting system is that they consider
everyone they face to be armed and have armed friends who will help them out. This
means that all the training is designed to fight armed multiple attackers. The foot
work, torso twisting and arm movements are meant to work together in ensuring that
any threat is both seen and dealt with. Each move is designed to allow them to see
around the immediate area, leading to the next threat being identified and dealt with.
Attackers are used as shields against the other attackers, in a manner that reminded
me a little of the way Richard Dimitri uses his Shredder concept.
Another facet of the system is its method of application. The physical techniques are
a small part of the whole, with the use of deception and situational awareness being
paramount. When faced with the usual "what would you do if" questions he was
always keen to say "it depends". Again like Dimitri he recognises that the context of
the situation can be used to formulate the best response, giving clues as to the best
tactic to use. They also study real life events, de-briefing what they believe should
have been done as well as studying what the most common form of attacks actually
are.
The Machine aims to control the opponents movement by "drawing" them in, on both
a physical and psychological level. Physically they leave perceived weaknesses in
their defence like, for example, leaving their torso wide open for an attack. When this
attack comes the Machine then takes care of it. Psychologically the ploy of feigned
weakness is often used to lower the opponents guard and draw him close to what he
sees as a low threat situation.
Most of John Urwins demonstrations were done in relatively slow motion. He often
dictated the attack we were to use and then showed us the moves. We were warned
by Kevin not to be relaxed when he was holding our limbs, as he would occasionally
jolt them when explaining power development etc. I was glad that I had been warned.
At once point he demonstrated a simultaneous double strike to my jaw and back of
my head, which immediately led into a neck break. The move seemed very effective
to me, and he held me in the neck break position for an uncomfortable length of time.
It hurt and I have no doubt would have caused a break quite quickly and easily.
The weaponry in the system is also based around the basic Machine movements.
They carry their weapons in places that facilitate them being drawn during the
machine movement itself, so that the one set of moves fits all scenarios.
In his book John Urwin makes reference to a weapon called the "Sash". Though briefly
described he declined to show or demonstrate it to us. He feared that the weapon
and technique would be copied and is too valuable to allow to become common
knowledge. I was fairly disappointed with this and had, after all, come a long way to
get an appreciation of the system. Johns unusual approach and forthright demeanour
would, along with his "The Sixteen" claims, go a long way to discouraging people from
exploring his system further. It isnt that he isnt likeable. He just makes it clear that
he couldnt care less what you think. John is his own man, and I feel that he needs to
decide whether or not he really wants to promote this system. If he does he needs to
have a total re-think about how he should present it to the world. He feels that too
many techniques and training methods have been opened up to the world, thus

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educating the enemy and allowing them to design new and more deadly ways to fight.
So he keeps his close to his chest.
After leaving John I then spent more time with Kevin back at his home address. He did
some demonstrations at full speed. It is only then when the potential of the Machine
hit home literally. He does not consider that he is moving particularly fast but, being
on the receiving end, I most certainly did. His hands fly out with alarming speed and
accuracy and with that, coupled with their tactics of cunning deception, I know that
he is capable of looking after himself in a very brutal manner. They do have an option
to merely restrain an attacker, but attacking vital targets so brutally, along with their
overall approach to view everyone as a potential multiple armed attacker threat,
means that they may seriously injure or kill an attacker in circumstances where a
lesser response would have been preferable. But it is designed to be a military system
first and foremost, not a civilian self defence course.
I make no comments about John Urwins claims to have been in a secret assassination
squad. He did not strike me as a liar, but he could offer no hard evidence to
substantiate his claims. These claims, along with Johns reticence to fully
demonstrate what he has to offer, will hold the system back greatly. I think that he
needs to decide whether or not he wants it to grow. If he does he needs to radically
change his approach to the way he goes about it.
But his system is very unusual and, in my view, is potentially very effective. Whoever
designed it has hit on something unique, effective and fascinating. It works on many
different levels and I am confident that a reasonably skilled exponent of it would be
able to take care of themselves very effectively indeed. This is not the mickey mouse
system that some of our spinning bow tie wearing colleagues would have you believe.
From my few hours of experience of it I would say that it easily as has much potential
as many of the arts out there, and more than most.
If this had initially been presented to the world without John Unwins "The Sixteen"
claims, then its credibility would far exceed what it is now. I do not necessarily think
it is the best thing ever, but it certainly is a credible and unique system of fighting. If
I needed a guy to watch my back in a life threatening situation, a UCTC trained man
would do nicely, thank you very much.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There. Hope I didn't bore ya!
Train safe guys. Brian S

__________________
Bri Thai

JayBell

Posted 05/12/04

#2

Registered: 28/09/04
Posts: 9
Sounds very interesting. I'm intrigued...thanks for the write-up, Brian!

__________________
Signum Pacis Amor

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RobP
Moderator
Registered: 24/10/03
Posts: 1,470

Posted 05/12/04

#3

Interesting review, thanks Brian.

I've seen the website but had no particular view one way or another. Of course it's
easy to make all sorts of spec ops claims, but at the same time I think it's a little
naive of people to think the UK doesn't have hit squads or similar. Spec Ops in this
country don't begin and end with SAS, as a few of our guys can attest.
Presuming this is the real deal it would be interesting to see how it compares to our
Russian friends. Some things sound quite similar on paper, the use of movement,
shielding and the psychology for example.
Did you feel it differed significantly from the "usual" combatives?
Interesting comment about the marketing too as well as some parallels. I guess we
live in a marketing-driven world but I think, one way or another, the truth will out in
the end.
cheers

tonyk
Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 144

Posted 05/12/04

#4

Ever read the Nemeisis File?The truth came out when the police threatened to
charge the author with mass murder! He had never been in the SAS and the claims of
assasinations were pure fantasy.
A friend's Father carried out several assasinations in the Far East in the late fifties
whilst serving in the SAS.I only found out he had been a member of the SAS whilst
attending his funeral despite drinking with him two or three times a week over a
period of ten years.His son expained that he had killed several people on covert jobs
but didn't like talking about it or his time in the SAS.Certainly didn't look like the
stereotyped assasin,more like the average guy in the pub who you wouldn't notice or
pay attention to.As far as I know all assasinations during that period were carried out
by the SAS or ex-public school boys in MI6.Its unlikely squaddies from the cookhouse
would have been recruited to do the job.
I have no doubt that Mr Urwin is a talented martial artist and can teach people a
great deal but his system has perhaps been developed over a forty year period rather
than being a product of some secret army unit in the fifties.If such a thing existed it
would have been built upon rather than being disbanded.

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Pervaz

Posted 05/12/04

#5

Never seen or heard about this guy ...

Registered: 24/10/03
Posts: 293

Are there any vids ??

__________________
- Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
- Do not believe simply because it has been handed down for many generations.
- Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
- Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in Holy Scriptures.
- Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of Teachers, elders or wise men.
Believe only after careful observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with
reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all. Then accept it and
live up to it.

BriThai
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 25

Posted 05/12/04

#6

Hi Pervaz, no vids I'm afraid.

Rob, it is vastly different to combatives in its physical delivery system. Everything is
based around thise robotic patter of movement. I guess you have to see it to get
the idea. Like the Shredder and probably most things I suppose.
It looks robotic because the head / neck is held so stiff, and the elbows kept so close
to the body. The criss cross movements do, quite literally, make the practitioner look
like a machine.
I still don't know about the secret squads etc., but I do know that it is a style of
fighting that would work.

__________________
Bri Thai

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Pervaz

Posted 05/12/04

#7

Bri,
Registered: 24/10/03
Posts: 293

Any pics of training ??

__________________
- Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
- Do not believe simply because it has been handed down for many generations.
- Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
- Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in Holy Scriptures.
- Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of Teachers, elders or wise men.
Believe only after careful observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with
reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all. Then accept it and
live up to it.

stephen1712
Registered: 04/12/03
Posts: 32

BriThai
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 25

Posted 05/12/04

#8

And this guy teaches in Newcastle upon Tyne? Whereabouts? This I have to look
into!!!
Any further info greatly appreciated.
Stephen1712
P.S. Bri, do you post as ThaiBri on the Deluxe Forum?

Posted 05/12/04

#9

Stephen, yes but haven't been on there in a while. Its mostly MMA, BJJ and other
sport oriented arts. But I do occasionally pop in to abuse 'em!
email me at bujutsuboy@aol.com and I will pass your details onto Kevin.
There are no pics of training, and no clips. Think of Wing Chun mixed with the Bourne
Identity with a smattering of Robbie the Robot........ and turn the speed button onto
"excessive". I know that sounds ridiculous, but see what you make of it after a demo
with Kev.
Like I said, not the be all and end all, but very unique and pretty effective in my
view.
__________________
Bri Thai

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kev401

Posted 05/12/04

#10

Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 6
Just a quick note to say hi to all of you here. I am the Kev that Brian met with John
Urwin on his visit to us. Would just like to say thanks to him for his review and
support. Personally I felt he gave an honest account of the day and I am pleased
that he took the time to write down his thoughts.
Iam also pleased to see the posts that followed have been open minded on a subject
that usually gets a good slating from those who care to criticise from behind their
keyboards and not from experience.
I am happy, if the board protocol allows, to answer any further questions if you have
any.
Thanks.
Kev

tonyk
Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 144

Posted 05/12/04

#11

I am sure we can ask questions provided everything is kept polite and civil.
I was wondering if the system is the same as John was taught in the army or has he
developed it further over the last forty years?
How long does it take for an operative to become proficent in the system?

Where exactly did this system originate? Did this system come out of the work of
Fairburn/Sykes or is it oriental in origin?
Cheers

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kev401
Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 6

Posted 05/12/04

#12

Hi Tony
I hope too that any exchange of ideas can remain civil. The system taught to John
and subsequently myself differs only that they trained in a different set of basic
moves. These moves are like a kata in TMA. They are a way of learning to move using
the machine. The moves taught to the group involved using all the weapons systems
they had. Ours does not. The moves are useful as they do not differ if using a
weapon or being unarmed
The main machine moves which form a common thread in every action we do can be
learnt fairly quickly and if practised intensivley over a short time should become
subconscious. Once you know the machine then you know the system. Its applying
the moves that takes the learning.
The origins are British. The late Pete Robins who was the main source of info on
anything Fairbairn met John and myself and looked at the system. He was inclined to
think that some common geneality and input may have existed with both systems. I
don't know but can say it was developed around the late forties to late fifties.

RobP
Moderator
Registered: 24/10/03
Posts: 1,470

Posted 05/12/04

#13

"I am happy, if the board protocol allows, to answer any further questions if you have
any."
Hi Kev, no prob, we welcome genuine input from any source here.
cheers

kev401
Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 6

stephen1712

Posted 05/12/04

#14

Thanks Rob.
Kev

Posted 05/12/04

#15

Registered: 04/12/03
Posts: 32
Kevin
Whereabouts do you train? I'm based in Otterburn and could certainly come down to
Newcastle and take a look at your style if I could find a convieint time.
All the best
Stephen1712

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