HOME / MAINTENANCEFORUMS / ASSET CONDITION MANAGEMENT

/ POSTS ABOUT VIBRATION/ALIGNMENT/BALANCE / 2X BLADE PASS

12 REPLIES

2X blade pass
JACK1954 MESSENGER
7/2/12 8:48 AM

would missalignment give you a 2 times blade pass in a fan pump. It's like 2 times
higher than 1 x blade pass.
Original Post

RON BROOK LEADER

7/2/12 10:28 AM

Jack,
No. First check to see if the pump has a dual exit volute. Usually, these are not the
same spacing as the spacing between the pump vanes, so you end up with a
predominant 2x vane pass. Check head pressure and suction pressure against the
pump curve to see if you operating in the right portion of the curve.
Ron

WALT STRONG LEADER

7/2/12 10:29 AM

What is a "fan pump"? Can you provide more machine details?

Walt

JOHN J MESSENGER
7/2/12 11:18 AM

Walt,
A fan pump is a low-pulsation designed pump that pumps the paper stock slurry
through a pressure screen to the headbox on a paper machine.
Regards,

John J

WALT STRONG LEADER

7/2/12 11:57 AM

John,
Thanks for the clue. I just earned my Phd on fan pumps using Google! Here is a handy
picture for those like me:
http://www.gouldspumps.com/dow...bleSuction/BRFAN.pdf
General comments to Jack,
No, misalignament should not cause 2x pulsation frequency. If pump is on VFD, then a
speed change might indicate if there is resonant amplification from structure or pipe
acoustics. If speed is same and pulsation has increased at 2x vane pass, then there
may be blockage/fouling at inlet, cutwater, or dischage. If 2x vane pass has always had
higher amplitude than 1x vane pass frequency, then it is from pump design; such as
staggered impeller vanes that can cause 2-pulsations per vane per revolution.
Walt

ELECTRICPETE LEADER
7/2/12 12:46 PM

I think position of rotor with respect to stationary diffusers can affect the infamous gap
A and gap B which affect the blade pass frequency magnitude. It seems remotely
possible that severe shaft-to-shaft machinery misalignment could affect that position if
it is severe and induces a shaft bow.
Good point about "staggered impeller" - that's what's shown in the figure.
And good point about historical performance.
Just to broaden the discussion toward some less likely possibile causes of blade pass
frequency twice as higher as vanes times rpm:
1 - Let's say there is a pressure pulse at BPF in the time waveform. The spectrum may
show peaks at 1*BPF, 2*BPF, 3*BPF etc due to the ringdown characteristic... perhaps
highest near some kind of resonance. Similar to mechanical looseness may have 2x
higher than 1x...does not mean 2 events per revolution.

2 - Not only the number of impeller vanes but also the number of stationary diffuser
vanes affects the pattern. For example if you have 9 stationary diffuser vanes and 5
rotating impeller vanes, the primary vane frequency can be 10 instead of 5. Google
Corley or look for the thread with article by Bill Foiles. Related thread:
http://maintenanceforums.com/e...1089011/m/5891058304

WALT STRONG LEADER

7/2/12 1:33 PM

A shaft bow is a 1xSS effect. This would cause amplitude modulation sidebands at
vane pass +/- 1xSS and not 2x vane pass. Pulsation in centrifugal fans and pumps and
"pump fans" is not a pure sine wave, so it produces harmonics. I am not sure that I
would call it a "ring down characteristic". What physics would describe it this way?
Walt

ELECTRICPETE LEADER
7/2/12 1:59 PM

quote:
A shaft bow is a 1xSS effect. This would cause amplitude modulation sidebands
at vane pass +/- 1xSS and not 2x vane pass.

I stated the magnitude of the pattern can be affected. I made no claims about the effect
on the frequency content (you'll note this part of my discussion was not under my
heading of things that might increase twice blade pass). I left it vague and general
because I personally don't know what the possible effects on the spectrum might be.
You're suggesting we have rotating bow (which reasonably might cause 1x sidebands) it may or may not be the case - we have discussed complexities of misalignment
response before. It is to me more conceivable that the primary response to static
misalignment is a non-rotating bow whose effect at the plane of the impeller is simply
to introduce static shift in position of the rotor relative to the stationary components. It
does not seem out of the realm of possibility that the resulting smaller gap on one side
can create a sharper pulse which excites richer in higher harmonics like 2x. I'm not
really making any claims, just talking about possibilities. I haven't seen any case studies
or literature addressing effects of misalignment on blade pass spectrum.

Also, since we don't know if 2xbpf has always been higher than 1xbpf (as you said and I
agreed), it may be that what brings attention now a change in magnitude rather than a
change in pattern.
quote:
Pulsation in centrifugal fans and pumps and "pump fans" is not a pure sine wave,
so it produces harmonics.

That's exactly my point. The harmonics would be 1*BPF, 2*BPF, 3*BPF where BPF is the
assumed fundamental pulse frequency. And in this case, whether the first harmonic or
2nd harmonic of the fundamental blade pass frequency happens to be highest has to
do with the shape of the transient.
quote:
I am not sure that I would call it a "ring down characteristic". What physics would
describe it this way?

You are welcome to call it whatever you like. The pulse can produce oscillation which
decays over time. If you postulate for example some portion of the fluid-mechanical
system has a resonance very near twice the fundamental pulse frequency, you would
expect oscillation to occur near that resonant frequency in at least that portion of the
system resulting in highest peak at twice the fundamental pulse frequency which may
be detectable at the monitoring point.

ELECTRICPETE LEADER
7/2/12 11:42 PM

The intent of my first post was to enlarge the discussion to include all possibilities
(simple brainstorming). Through followup questions and responses, those items
probably got more discussion then they deserved (no-one's fault but mine).
Personally, I think it's very likely that Walt was right on the money about the staggered
impellers shown in the link... if yours look like that then they would very likely be
expected to give higher 2*BPF.
That's why I said "good point" in my first post regarding: 1 - staggered impeller; and 2 historical performance (may have always been that way as a result of the design).
Everything else I talked about in that post I identified as unlikely or less likely.

VIBE-RATER LEADER
7/3/12 3:43 AM

Fan pumps are always variable speed whether this be DC or AC at least in my

experience. I don't think there is such a thing as a fan pump impellor with only 2 vanes.
But there is always a 1st time. A 2 vane pump is normally reserved for pumping bricks. I
would hazard a guess at least 8 vanes for the fan pump. rgds

WILLIAM_C._FOILES LEADER
7/3/12 7:23 AM

I've seen staggering used to solve this type of problem, not worsen it.
For forces and response fix a point (or look at many points - one at a time) on the
stationary parts. The forces are harmonic with a fundamental of 1 X Number of vanes X
running speed (with mild assumptions).
Add the forces. It does seem posible that the 1X vane pass might cancel, even because
of the staggering (or double volute).
I've seen the 2X vane pass high when the 1X vane pass canceled becasue of the
number of diffuser vane/impellor vane combination and the different stage vanes were
not staggered. Staggering the impellors (I guess the diffusers could have been
staggered - maybe. ) reduced the 2X vane pass.
Sum the forces. For low frequencies pressume the casing is rigid.

WALT STRONG LEADER

7/3/12 10:14 AM

quote:
A 2 vane pump is normally reserved for pumping bricks.

I don't thnk anyone here was talking about a 2-vane pump. The posted question was
about a vibration frequency at 2x vane-pass. The actual frequency or #vanes was not
stated. BTW I have heard a few folks refer to a 2-van pump that was and agitator or
mixer.

Walt

VIBE-RATER LEADER
7/3/12 10:22 PM

You're right Walt, I didn't read it thoroughly enough. rgds

Views: 139
Likes (0)

HOME / MAINTENANCEFORUMS / ASSET CONDITION MANAGEMENT

/ POSTS ABOUT VIBRATION/ALIGNMENT/BALANCE / 2X BLADE PASS