06/07/201208:46AM

InterviewwithGreekWriterNikosDimou

'WeLiketoLiveBeyondOurMeans'
InaSPIEGELinterview,GreekwriterNikosDimouanalysesthestateofhiscountry'spsyche,
describingthe"deepfearsthattormenttheGreeksoul."HeblamesGreekpoliciansforthe
currentcrisisbutinsiststheEUandGermanyonlyhavethemselvestoblamefortheresentment
thatmanyGreeksfeel.
Thirtysevenyearsago,NikosDimou,whoisnow76,wroteabookofaphorismstled"TheMisery
ofBeingGreek,"whichwaspublishedin1975.Inthebook,hewrotethataGreekdoes
"everythinghecantowidenthedividebetweendesireandreality."
Forthisinterview,heinvitedSPIEGELtohisapartmentinAthens'leafyembassydistrict.Theair
smelledofjasmine,asprinklerwateredthelawnoutsideandDimou'sthreeleggedcat,Azurro,
wasasleeponthesofa.Dimou,whostudiedinMunich,servedthereporterscoeeandcake,
despitehisrecentfrustraonwithSPIEGEL.LikemanypeopleinGreece,hewashurtbythe
magazine'srecentcoverabouttheGreekcrisis,whichboretheheadline"AcropolisAdieu!"
SPIEGEL:Mr.Dimou,youhavestudiedtheGreeksoulmorethoroughlythanalmostanyone.One
couldsayyou'vepraccallydissectedit.HowistheGreeksouldoingrightnow?
Dimou:Theprevailingfeelingisoneofuncertainty.Greeksnolongerfeelcondent,whichpartly
hastodowiththeirhistory.Theyhavecertainlysueredagreatdeal.Butuncertaintyalsoleadsto
aggression.WeGreeksloveconspiracytheoriestheyhelptoexplainandsubstanateour
uncertaines.That'swhywedon'tonlythinkwithourheadsandourreason,butalsowithour
emoons.Youmustremember,evenintheancientworld,learnedEgypansreferredtothe
Greeksas"children."Butthisimmaturityalsohasakindofbeautytoit.
SPIEGEL:AndyoutrulybelievethatGreece'shistoryconnuestodetermineyourfellowGreeks'
behaviortothisday,inthecurrentcrisis?
Dimou:Yes,withoutadoubt.ModernGreekswillalwayssuerfromknowingwhattheancient
Greeksaccomplished,whichwecanneitherforgetnorsurpass.MytheoryisthattheGreeks
sueredcultureshockwhentheywerecatapultedfromfeudalcondionstomodernitywithinthe
spaceofafewyearsinthe19thcentury.Beingcaughtsomewherebetweeneastandwest,ancient
gloryandpresentpoverty,betweenorthodoxyandenlightenment,hasletheGreekswithan
identyproblem.That'swhatmakesthemunseledanduncertaintothisday.Theyalwaysfeel
underthreat.
SPIEGEL:DoesthatmeanGreeksneverenrelyarrivedinEurope?
Dimou:Greeksweren'tfreeforalongme.Firsttheywerepartofamulnaonalempirethat
spokemanydierentlanguages.ThentheylivedunderTurkishrulefor500years.Thenallofa

suddentheyhadtobecomeEuropeans,imporngalltheseinstuons.Theresultisthat,tothis
day,Greeksdon'thaveagoodrelaonshipwiththeirgovernment.
SPIEGEL:Andwhyisallofthissoimportant?
Dimou:It'simportantifyouwanttoworktogetherwiththeGreeks,ortoreformtheircountry.
ThenyouneedtoknowjustwhatdeeplyrootedfearstormenttheGreeksoul.Ibelievethesefears
resurfaceespeciallyincrisissituaonssuchastheonewecurrentlyhave.ThenGreeks,
tradionallysohospitable,suddenlystarttoviewothersasenemieswho'vecometostealtheir
souls.
SPIEGEL:Doyouthinkitwasthismixtureofuncertaintyandaggressionthatcausedtheelecon
resultsonMay6,wherevoterspunishedthemainstreamparesfortheirsupportforausterity?
Dimou:Yes,absolutely.ButtheresultsalsohavetodowiththewayGreeksallowtheirfeelings
freereignwhenitcomestopolics.TakeAlexisTsipras,forexample,theheadofthelewing
coalionSyriza.He'syoung,he'sgoodlooking,he'sopmisc.Peoplebelievenothingbadcan
happeniftheyfollowhim,becausehehassuchcondence.Atthesameme,everyoneknowsnot
evenTsiprascanperformmagic.Sll,theyvotedforhim,acngonafeeling.Ihopethe
parliamentaryeleconsonJune17takeamoreraonalcourse.
SPIEGEL:Itdoesn'tparcularlylookthatwayatthemoment.
Dimou:IntheeleconinMay,35percentofGreeksabstainedand19percentvotedforsmall
paresthatdidn'tmakeitintoparliament(ed'snote:becausetheyfailedtoclearthe3percent
hurdle).Together,thatmakes54percentwhosevotescan'tbepredictedthisme.I'mcounngon
manypeoplebeingmorecoolheadednow.Tsipraswillreceivesllmorevotes,butnotenoughto
formagovernment.ThenwemightendupwithacoalionofproEUpares:NewDemocracy,
PASOKandsmallerpares.
SPIEGEL:ArepeopleinGreeceawarethatthiseleconwillalsoamounttoavotefororagainstthe
euro?
Dimou:Ifwefailtomeetausterityrequirements,we'lllosethecurrencyaswell.Youcan'thave
onewithouttheother.Ihopethat'smademanypeoplestopandthink.Thisisnotanelecon
betweenrightandle,butbetweentheeuroandthedrachma.Ifthepareswouldexpressitthat
way,thenwewouldalreadyknowtheresults:78to81percentofallGreekswanttokeepthe
euro.Unfortunately,though,notonlydoestheword"democracy"comefromGreek,butalsothe
word"chaos."
SPIEGEL:Andtheword"dilemma."
Dimou:Yes,allofthatisverycharacteriscoftheGreekmentality.Itwilltakegeneraonsto
change.Ihope,though,thatwecansurvivethiscrisiswiththeEU'shelp.Ofcourse,there'salso
theotherscenariothatcouldplayouthere,onewhereeverythingfallsapartandwestartagain
fromthebeginning.
SPIEGEL:Doesthatscenarioscareyou?

Dimou:Yes.WhenIsawSPIEGEL's"AcropolisAdieu"cover,itgavemethefeelingIwassimply
beingthrownoutoftheEU.Thatwasashock.Imaynotbearepresentaveexample,butI've
alwaysfeltmyselftobeaEuropean,aEuropeanwhocomesfromGreece.Aerseeingyourcover,
IfeltasifIwereonashippullingawayfromtheshore,withEuropedisappearingslowlybutsurely
onthehorizon,andIwasbeingbanished.
SPIEGEL:YoufounditoverbearingofSPIEGELtoprintsuchacover?
Dimou:Itwasabrutalmoveinaverysensivesituaon.Youknow,theAcropolisissomething
holyforGreeks.Andforusthatmadeyourcover,assoccerplayerswouldsay,afoul.
SPIEGEL:Morethan30yearsago,yousaidinaSPIEGELinterviewthatindicultmomentsoftheir
history,Greeksalwaysseekfaultwithothersandneverwiththemselves.
Dimou:That'sslltrue.Whenyoutalktopeoplehere,theysay,thisAngelaMerkel,thisSchuble
(ed'snote:theGermannanceminister),whydidtheydothistous?Irespond,"Whatdoes
Merkelhavetodowithus?Nothing.WeranupthesedebtsandaskedtheEUforhelp.That'swhy
they'rehere."ThenthepersonI'mtalkingtousuallyrepliesthattheEuropeansaremakinggood
moneyoallthis,orthatit'saconspiracyagainstGreecebythebanksorbyglobalcapitalism.
SPIEGEL:WhichcouldreectanotherGreektraityoudescribeinyourbook,thetendencyto
overdothings.
Dimou:Precisely.Weliketolivebeyondourmeans.Youseethiszestforlifeifyouread(Nikos
Kazantzakis'novel)"ZorbatheGreek"wewanttohaveeverything,enjoyeverything.The
tendencytooverdothingsisalsocloselyconnectedtoatendencytowardrepression.Greeceisthe
homenotonlyofdemocracy,butalsooftragedy.Thetragicheroisapersonwhooverreaches
himself,andviolatesthenaturalorderofthings.
SPIEGEL:CanGermansandGreekseverhopetogetalong,despitetheirdierences?
Dimou:Yes,theycan,iftheycomplementeachother.TheGreeksneedtheGermansbecausethey
candothingstheGreekscan't,andtheGermansneedtheGreeksbecausetheyhavethiszestfor
lifethatmakestheGermanshappy.
SPIEGEL:Lookingback,whatdidGermanydowronginitsaempttorescueGreece?
Dimou:Firstofall,themajorityoftheblamelieswithGreece'spolicians,whocausedthiscrisis
andfailedtoreacttoitquicklyenough.Theyalsofailedtoexplaintopeoplehowseriousthe
situaonwas.Instead,theyonceagainputtheblameonothers,claiming,"Yes,thesemeasures
arebarbaric,butthey'rebeingforcedonusbytheIMF,theEUandtheECBthetroika."
Beforehand,though,theytoldEUrepresentaves,"Weneedthesemeasures,pleasegiveusthe
money."Theywereplayingtwofacedpolics.Ibelievethatmorethananything,theGreekpeople
arevicmsofapolicalelite.
SPIEGEL:Evenso,surelyGermanyandtheEUcouldhavedonecertainthingsbeer.

Dimou:Ithinktheyintroducedthewrongmeasuresfartoomanyausterityprograms,ergothe
currentdangerofdeaon.Buttherehavealsobeencommunicaonproblems.Thetroikanever
reallyexplainedtoGreeceitsideasanditsapproachtondingasoluon.Theydidn'thavea
spokespersonwhocouldhavetriedtotrulyengagetheGreekpeopleinaconversaon,notasa
representavesentfromthecommandcenterofsomeFourthReich,butasamemberofagroup
ofpeoplewhowanttohelpthecountry.Instead,theybehavedlikeauthoritarianbureaucrats,
arrivingeverythreemonths,issuingordersandleavingagain,neverbotheringtosckaround.
SPIEGEL:ButGreeceisalreadycomplainingthatfartoomuchisdictatedfromoutside.
Dimou:Iremainconvincedthattheproceduresimplyneededtobeexplainedbeer.Iunderstand
whymanyGreeksfelttheywerelivingunderGermanorEUoccupaon,evenifIdon'tsharethat
view.Aconsiderableopportunitywaslostthroughthewaythetroikaactedandthewayitsrole
wasexploitedbyGreekpolicians.AnyonelookingtointroduceGreecetoadierentmentality
needstoproceedverycarefully,ortheyquicklyendupachievingtheoppositeeect.
SPIEGEL:Thenontopofitall,therewererebukesbeingissuedfromBerlin.
Dimou:Yes,WolfgangSchublewasalwayswagginghisngerlikeaschoolteacher,sayingthe
Greekshadmisbehaved.Merkelwassomewhatmorehumane,butsllveryProtestantinher
strictness,applyingtheconceptofguilt.Theycouldhaveseenthatwasn'tthewaytoachievethe
desiredresult.Itwassimplythewrongapproach.
SPIEGEL:Whatdoyoupredictfortheupcomingparliamentaryelecon?
Dimou:I'mnotgoingtoventureaprediconatthispoint,althoughthatinitselfissomethingofa
predicon.ButIhopeverymuchthatwecanndawayout.Greeceleavingtheeurozonewould
beaheavyblow,andnotonlyforGreece.Ulmately,EuropewithoutGreecewouldbeaweaker
Europe,withapieceofitselfmissing.I'malwaystryingtoexplaintomyfellowGreekswhyitcan't
possiblybeintheirinterestthatwelosetheeuro.Muchlikeapsychoanalyst,IadvisetheGreek
paenttotakeaveryraonallookatthingsthisme.
SPIEGEL:Andhowlongwillyourpsychoanalycaltreatmenttake?
Dimou:Thatdependsonthepaent.IfherespondsinatypicallyGreekway,hewon'tevenshow
upforthesecondtherapysession.
InterviewconductedbyJuliaAmaliaHeyerandBriaSandberg.
URL:
hp://www.spiegel.de/internaonal/europe/interviewwithgreekwriternikosdimouoncrisisa
837024.html
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