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Magic Lantern Forum Using Magic Lantern Raw Video 4:3 ratio recording with ML (For Anamorphic)
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mohanohi
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Topic: 4:3 ratio recording with ML (For Anamorphic) (Read 9916 times)
4:3 ratio recording with ML (For
Anamorphic)
on: August 03, 2013, 07:03:24 PM

While shooting anamorphic to get exact 2.35 ratio we need the resolution be
recorded at 1440x1080. So that it would fit to 1920x818 cine 2.35 ratio. So is it
possible to implement the custom resolution / 4:3 ratio?
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iaremrsir
Member

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 08:55:05
PM

Posts: 160
Quote from: mohanohi on August 03, 2013, 07:03:24 PM

While shooting anamorphic to get exact 2.35 ratio we need the

resolution be recorded at 1440x1080. So that it would fit to 1920x818
cine 2.35 ratio. So is it possible to implement the custom resolution /
4:3 ratio?

Wouldn't that yield 1440x612, not 1920x818? Shouldn't you capture at the final
horizontal resolution you want so you don't have to upscale and lose detail? So
you should be capturing at something like 1920x1440 and compress it vertically
in post instead of stretching it horizontally. But I believe the max recording
resolution of 1:1 crop on the 5D3 is 1920x1280. My point is record as close to the
final resolution as you can to minimize the need to stretch your footage.
Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 02:28:16 AM by iaremrsir Report to moderator

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Midphase
Hero Member

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 11:56:32
PM

Posts: 712

What he just said!

The idea of recording an an inferior resolution than what the camera is capable of
giving you, just to that you can stretch the footage back into what the camera
could have recorded in the first place seems bizarre.
The way to record anamorphic on the 5D3 is to record at 3:2 resolution
(1920X1280) and then stretch that out in post to roughly 3008X1280 for a 2.35:1
ratio. That assumes that your anamorphic lens is a 1.5X stretch and not a 2X
stretch which will give you a much wider image that you'll need to crop in post.
Anyway, the point of using an anamorphic lens is to increase resolution, not
decrease it. Yeah, I know, you also get the nifty horizontal flares and oval
bokeh...but seriously, resolution should be the most important.
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iaremrsir
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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 02:27:45
AM

Posts: 160
Quote from: Midphase on August 03, 2013, 11:56:32 PM

What he just said!

The idea of recording an an inferior resolution than what the camera
is capable of giving you, just to that you can stretch the footage back
into what the camera could have recorded in the first place seems
bizarre.
The way to record anamorphic on the 5D3 is to record at 3:2
resolution (1920X1280) and then stretch that out in post to roughly
3008X1280 for a 2.35:1 ratio. That assumes that your anamorphic
lens is a 1.5X stretch and not a 2X stretch which will give you a much
wider image that you'll need to crop in post.
Anyway, the point of using an anamorphic lens is to increase
resolution, not decrease it. Yeah, I know, you also get the nifty
horizontal flares and oval bokeh...but seriously, resolution should be
the most important.

That's not what I said. Yes, he should record at the highest resolution possible for
the format he wants. I don't know the highest 4:3 ratio the 5D3 will do, but you'd
want to use that one (1706x1280?). In post, you don't want to stretch your
footage out as that causes you to lose resolution. You want to compress the
footage vertically in post so you don't lose resolution. Anamorphics don't increase
resolution since a sensor has a fixed number of pixels it can record. Anamorphics
widen the horizontal field of view through horizontal compression onto the sensor.
So to correctly counter it you have to compress vertically. So your end result will
truly be 1920x818, and not upscaled 1440.
Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 02:29:17 AM by iaremrsir Report to moderator

mohanohi

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML (For

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Anamorphic)
Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013,
07:06:58 AM
Quote from: iaremrsir on August 03, 2013, 08:55:05 PM

Wouldn't that yield 1440x612, not 1920x818? Shouldn't you capture

at the final horizontal resolution you want so you don't have to
upscale and lose detail? So you should be capturing at something like
1920x1440 and compress it vertically in post instead of stretching it
horizontally. But I believe the max recording resolution of 1:1 crop on
the 5D3 is 1920x1280. My point is record as close to the final
resolution as you can to minimize the need to stretch your footage.

I agree. If it does 1920x1440 or 2048x1536 res then it would be great. Then ML

will be creating Mini Arri Alexa.. Will any developers hop in to comment?
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mohanohi
New to the forum

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 07:12:22
AM

Posts: 36
DOP, Editor, DIT

Quote from: Midphase on August 03, 2013, 11:56:32 PM

What he just said!

The idea of recording an an inferior resolution than what the camera
is capable of giving you, just to that you can stretch the footage back
into what the camera could have recorded in the first place seems
bizarre.
The way to record anamorphic on the 5D3 is to record at 3:2
resolution (1920X1280) and then stretch that out in post to roughly
3008X1280 for a 2.35:1 ratio. That assumes that your anamorphic
lens is a 1.5X stretch and not a 2X stretch which will give you a much
wider image that you'll need to crop in post.
Anyway, the point of using an anamorphic lens is to increase
resolution, not decrease it. Yeah, I know, you also get the nifty
horizontal flares and oval bokeh...but seriously, resolution should be
the most important.

Stretching doesn't yield good result. And the point of using anamorphic lens is not
to increase resolution and not about flares or oval bokeh, its all about giving film
feel to it. I am talking about true Anamorphic lens (kowa 40, 50, 75 ,100) and not
about any projector lens, which produces sharpest image.
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Midphase
Hero Member

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 08:10:43
AM

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Posts: 712

I don't want to start a big discussion here, but the way data is encoded in the
image, stretching the image horizontally produces a less artifacted image than
stretching it vertically so going from 1920 to say 2500 will still look quite
acceptable, especially coming from RAW.

Realistically, most people who want to shoot anamorphic on a DSLR are going to
do it with a projector lens. True Kowa anamorphics (the type you're talking about
and which can run in the tens of thousands of dollars) can't even mount on an EF
DSLR!
In this particular context, shooting using anamorphic lenses is very much about
the flares, the oval bokeh and squeezing a higher resolution out of the sensor
without compromising the IQ too much. Otherwise why not shoot in 1920X817
and save yourself some CF card space and hassle? If you want "cinematic" feel
out of your glass, you'd probably be much better off investing in some vintage
Zeiss or Leica with mounts which can be converted to EF without too much fuss.

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mohanohi
New to the forum

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 08:27:32
AM

Posts: 36
DOP, Editor, DIT

Quote from: Midphase on August 04, 2013, 08:10:43 AM

I don't want to start a big discussion here, but the way data is
encoded in the image, stretching the image horizontally produces a
less artifacted image than stretching it vertically so going from 1920
to say 2500 will still look quite acceptable, especially coming from
RAW.

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Realistically, most people who want to shoot anamorphic on a DSLR

are going to do it with a projector lens. True Kowa anamorphics (the
type you're talking about and which can run in the tens of thousands
of dollars) can't even mount on an EF DSLR!
In this particular context, shooting using anamorphic lenses is very
much about the flares, the oval bokeh and squeezing a higher
resolution out of the sensor without compromising the IQ too much.
Otherwise why not shoot in 1920X817 and save yourself some CF
card space and hassle? If you want "cinematic" feel out of your glass,
you'd probably be much better off investing in some vintage Zeiss or
Leica with mounts which can be converted to EF without too much
fuss.

I am using modified PL mount Mark3 body, and i know kowa doesn't mount
directly. As an cinematographer i have used Master primes, ultra primes for my
various project with Red cam, and i don't want these flat lenses.
As far projector lens is considered where most people shooting anamorphic, i
have been there and not satisfied with end result and i don't want to do amateur
job on professional set.
Quote

I don't want to start a big discussion here

And now, if you don't want you to start discussion then stay away from my
thread.
Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 08:43:28 AM by mohanohi

DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens

s---70
New to the forum

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 05:15:43
PM

Posts: 38
Quote

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And now, if you don't want you to start discussion then stay away
from my thread.

I don't think that this attitude will help you with getting devs to help you. Might
be better for you to keep using professional stuff like REDs with master primes
anyway if you want to look professional on a professional set.
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mohanohi
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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 07:01:31
PM

Posts: 36
DOP, Editor, DIT

Quote from: s---70 on August 04, 2013, 05:15:43 PM

I don't think that this attitude will help you with getting devs to help
you. Might be better for you to keep using professional stuff like REDs
with master primes anyway if you want to look professional on a
professional set.

And you think that putting a projector lens in front of an lens would yield good
results? I don't think anybody would have projected those footage on atleast 36+
feet screen. If i want to match to red/ alexa cam the least i can do is stay away
from these projector lens and shoot straight with the lenses which are on the
red/alexa body.
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mohanohi
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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 07:21:47
PM

Posts: 36
DOP, Editor, DIT

And this is my anamorphic lens test video. Was in hurry and didn't have tripod
while testing.
Workflow:
Shot RAW, (by mistake 1920x818)
Extracted with raw2cdng 16bit linear
imported dng to photivo
exported to 16bit tiff
imported and graded with scratch

Anamorphic test

Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 07:33:49 PM by mohanohi

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Midphase
Hero Member

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #11 on: August 04, 2013, 07:46:34
PM

Posts: 712
Quote from: mohanohi on August 04, 2013, 07:01:31 PM

And you think that putting a projector lens in front of an lens would
yield good results?

We're all trying to help, and there are so many different people here with various
levels of knowledge and experience that it's difficult to be able to clarify if
someone knows what they're talking about or not.
But to answer your original question, I think the max vertical resolution right now
is 1280 so best you can do is 1920 x 1280.

Note: Feel free to attack the post, but no personal attacks please. -Audionut
Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 07:05:52 AM by Audionut Report to moderator

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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #12 on: August 04, 2013, 09:32:35
PM

I have 1408 & 1472, you could crop it. I think 1440 had some problems before.
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iaremrsir
Member

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 10:13:47
PM

Posts: 160
Quote from: Midphase on August 04, 2013, 08:10:43 AM

I don't want to start a big discussion here, but the way data is
encoded in the image, stretching the image horizontally produces a
less artifacted image than stretching it vertically so going from 1920
to say 2500 will still look quite acceptable, especially coming from
RAW.

By artifacts do you mean aliasing? The reason there are less artifacts is because
there is less detail. And I have to ask, do you see the artifacts when viewing the
image at 100% or 50%? Or are they there at some weird zoom like 63%? Viewing
at the weird zooms will cause artifacting because of complications with scaling.
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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #14 on: August 05, 2013, 01:28:46
AM

Posts: 712
Quote from: iaremrsir on August 04, 2013, 10:13:47 PM

By artifacts do you mean aliasing? The reason there are less artifacts
is because there is less detail. And I have to ask, do you see the
artifacts when viewing the image at 100% or 50%? Or are they there
at some weird zoom like 63%? Viewing at the weird zooms will cause
artifacting because of complications with scaling.

I think Andrew Reid might want to chime in here and comment since he's truly
the resident expert when it comes to shooting with anamorphic lenses.
What I'm saying is that a 1920x1280 scaled up to 2500x1280 will look better than
say a 1280x720 scaled up to 1920x1080. So IMHO it's possible to obtain very
good looking footage by shooting at 1920x1280 (a 3:2 ratio) with an anamorphic
lens and then de-squeeze in post. I also think that shooting with ML raw yields an
overall better scalability in general.
Having said that...anamorphics are not everyone's cup of tea and different people
obviously have different opinions. To get a 2.35:1 ratio, some prefer to shoot at
1920x1080 and then crop in post, some prefer to shoot at 1920x817.
I think all these methods are valid. The OP was asking if it's possible for a ratio to
be added that would allow to shoot at 1440x1080 and I thought this was already
possible (although there are 2 problems with that...1 is that in order to access
that resolution one would have to shoot in Crop mode, and 2 that you still end up
stretching the image horizontally back to 1920 width.....crap, now I'm all
confused and stuff).
Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 01:31:26 AM by Midphase Report to moderator

Audionut
Global Moderator
Hero Member

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 07:13:20
AM

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I have a 1Dx, I'm awesome.

Quote from: Midphase on August 05, 2013, 01:28:46 AM

The OP was asking if it's possible for a ratio to be added that would
allow to shoot at 1440x1080 and I thought this was already possible
(although there are 2 problems with that...1 is that in order to access
that resolution one would have to shoot in Crop mode, and 2 that you
still end up stretching the image horizontally back to 1920
width.....crap, now I'm all confused and stuff).

Anything under 1920 wide by 1280 high (on a 5D3) can be shot normally. If you
need high resolution, then you must shot in crop mode.
Currently the closet you can get to 1440x1080 is 1472x1104, which is still 4:3
aspect and can either be cropped or resampled in post for the same result.

I've only brushed over this thread, but there's a difference between aspect ratio,
and shooting anamorphic. Some might be happy with the 2.35:1 aspect, others
might want to do it with anamorphic lenses.
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mohanohi
New to the forum

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #16 on: August 05, 2013, 10:19:17
AM

Posts: 36
DOP, Editor, DIT

Quote from: Audionut on August 05, 2013, 07:13:20 AM

Anything under 1920 wide by 1280 high (on a 5D3) can be shot
normally. If you need high resolution, then you must shot in crop
mode.
Currently the closet you can get to 1440x1080 is 1472x1104, which is
still 4:3 aspect and can either be cropped or resampled in post for the
same result.

I've only brushed over this thread, but there's a difference between
aspect ratio, and shooting anamorphic. Some might be happy with
the 2.35:1 aspect, others might want to do it with anamorphic lenses.

Thank you Audionut.

It would help a lot if we get 1920x1440 / 1472x1104 for shooting with
anamorphic. If i get 1920x1440 i would later scale it to 2048x858 for cine out
complaining to DCI specification. In mean time is there any build so i could shoot
with 1472x1104?
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Audionut
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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #17 on: August 05, 2013, 10:47:01
AM

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The current repo does 1472x1104, I checked before making the post.
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s---70
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User Guide for latest Nightly builds (help needed) / Help ML / F.A.Q.

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #18 on: August 05, 2013, 02:40:31
PM

Posts: 38
Quote

It would help a lot if we get 1920x1440 / 1472x1104 for shooting with

anamorphic. If i get 1920x1440 i would later scale it to 2048x858 for
cine out complaining to DCI specification. In mean time is there any
build so i could shoot with 1472x1104?

1920x1440 is only possible in CROP MODE, where the focal length of your lens
gets multiplied by 3. The limit for full frame capture is 1920x1280 and that
probably won't change.
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weoul
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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #19 on: August 05, 2013, 03:37:14
PM

Posts: 9

I think even more practical to use 1600X1200 in full mode and only 80MB/s
needed
ps just checked - 1728X1288 (almost 4:3 ratio) also works at least for me giving
92MB/s write speed continuisly (25FPS).
Great topic- gone for Kowa lenses
Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 03:46:41 PM by weoul

Midphase
Hero Member

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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #20 on: August 05, 2013, 07:18:52
PM

Posts: 712
Quote from: weoul on August 05, 2013, 03:37:14 PM

ps just checked - 1728X1288 (almost 4:3 ratio) also works at least for
me giving 92MB/s write speed continuisly (25FPS).

Assuming the lenses don't vignette, and that your CF card can handle it....why
not shoot all the way at 1920X1288 and have some wiggle room/reframing
options in post? You can always overlay 4:3 guides on your screen so that you
can frame accurately, and I'm not 100% sure but I believe you can de-squeeze
the image in LiveView automatically so that your brain is not going bonkers trying
to figure out what you're shooting.
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weoul

Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML (For

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Anamorphic)
Reply #21 on: August 05, 2013,
10:31:14 PM
Quote from: Midphase on August 05, 2013, 07:18:52 PM

Assuming the lenses don't vignette, and that your CF card can handle
it....why not shoot all the way at 1920X1288 and have some wiggle
room/reframing options in post? You can always overlay 4:3 guides on
your screen so that you can frame accurately, and I'm not 100% sure
but I believe you can de-squeeze the image in LiveView automatically
so that your brain is not going bonkers trying to figure out what
you're shooting.

May be you are right, pity that my CF Trancsend 64 1000x is against it and can
bear only 92MB/s transfer rate
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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 07:49:31
PM

Posts: 42

I feel like this is the place I should ask, but it doesn't relate directly with the
discussion on the above posts...
I'm using 70's and 90's Anamorphic LOMO Zooms on a 50D, great looking thing,
and shooting 4:3 (1344x1008px), but this area includes the black bars on top and
below the frame. I can take them out with "ClearOverlays", but then I don't
control my framing on a moving shot, for example.
Any ideas, clues or suggestions on how to remove these bars when shooting raw
video? (same goes for the 5D3)
Thanks a lot!
I'm desqueezing in post, and the loss in image quality is almost unnoticeable.
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mohanohi
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Re: 4:3 ratio recording with ML

(For Anamorphic)
Reply #23 on: August 17, 2013, 07:40:32
PM

Posts: 36
DOP, Editor, DIT

Quote from: tferradans on August 08, 2013, 07:49:31 PM

I feel like this is the place I should ask, but it doesn't relate directly
with the discussion on the above posts...
I'm using 70's and 90's Anamorphic LOMO Zooms on a 50D, great
looking thing, and shooting 4:3 (1344x1008px), but this area includes
the black bars on top and below the frame. I can take them out with
"ClearOverlays", but then I don't control my framing on a moving
shot, for example.
Any ideas, clues or suggestions on how to remove these bars when
shooting raw video? (same goes for the 5D3)
Thanks a lot!

I'm desqueezing in post, and the loss in image quality is almost

unnoticeable.

Taping on monitor would be quick and easy way.

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