179

EDITOR I A L
VOLV ER A L F U T U RO I I

Conmoverse en grupo:
mtodos queer, arte y
variables para el futuro /
Being Moved as a Group:
Queer Methods, Art and
Variables for the Future

Una conversacin de /A Conversation by Osas Yanov

con /with Julieta Massacese y /and Silvio Lang

Esta conversacin aborda reflexiones alrededor de lo
queer. Cmo se utiliza y despliega el trmino. Sus alcan-
ces, contagios y limitaciones en las prcticas, tres agentes
involucrados en la academia, el teatro y las artes visuales:
Julieta Massacese, Silvio Lang y yo, respectivamente.
Sin perseguir conclusiones categricas pero con la
intencin de crear ms preguntas utilizamos un temario
con los siguientes ejes:
Si la maquinaria del marketing ha logrado coloni-
zar nuestra subjetividad mediante la reiteracin de este-
reotipos (del estilo binario hembra-macho) para dirigirnos
a un consumo disciplinado qu proponen las teoras de
gnero frente a ese monstruo?
Lo queer parece ser una temtica del presente o
una lucha por generar contextos de mnima convivencia,
siempre est sobre un puesto de resistencia con una agenda
de necesidades y emergencias diarias. Se puede pensar en
un futuro queer? o son trminos contrapuestos?
A qu se refiere el reclamo No hablen por nues-
tro cuerpos frecuentemente presente en manifestaciones,
sobre todo, en relacin con los cuerpos trans. Qu posibi-
lidades emptico-corporales excluye? Hay que pertene-
cer a ciertos cuerpos o grupos para poder hablar?
En este sentido, podemos pensar en un queer vo-
luntarista y uno natural? Cules son las maneras en
que se construyen los sujetos queer y cmo podra darse
este modelo en otros campos de lo social?
Invirtiendo trminos: qu no aport an el movi-
miento queer a la sociedad?
Se pueden trazar relaciones entre bsquedas eso-
tricas y cuerpos mutantes?
JULIETA MASSACESE
Lo primero que me interesa decir es que considero que
la maquinaria del marketing ha neutralizado nuestro
potencial colectivo. Al menos en el mapa metropolitano
porque, obviamente, eso depende de dnde estemos lo-
calizadas y localizados en trminos de clase, geogrficos, y
dems. Aqu, en la ciudad, a partir de la asimilacin insti-
tucional de nuestras luchas, Facebook y otros dispositivos
de exhibicin han llevado lo que era o podra haber sido
colectivo a instancias personales e individuales, centra-
das en el nombre y en la generacin de imgenes del yo.
Las polticas de visibilidad han significado tanto una llave
como una trampa para nosotros. Sin duda, nos han dejado
algunas ventajas en trminos de derechos (matrimonio,
identidad de gnero, fertilizacin asistida, etc.), pero tam-
bin nos han arrastrado hacia polaridades y simplifica-
ciones. Hoy deberamos hacer un balance; preguntarnos
cunto se ha negociado en la dialctica del reconocimien-
to. Mucho. Se me viene a la mente la imagen de Mujeres
Pblicas en el Reina Sofa, por ejemplo.
Cuando algo se asimila, ya est: se captur, est
totalmente fagocitado. Pienso que hoy el activismo est
totalmente liquidado. Al menos desde los movimientos
sociales, no se est proponiendo cosas. Aunque, por otra
parte, aparecen algunos nuevos sujetos que son interesan-
tes. Pienso en la gente que est trabajando en Teora Gor-
da[1] o en nuevos modos de la sexualidad, por ejemplo, la
asexualidad. Son actores que no estaban en el mapa.
En lneas generales, est todo muy quieto y asimilado,
por eso, en contraposicin a las polticas de la visibilidad,
me interesa transitar en la invisibilidad como territorio
potente de accin.
18 0
Pp 179: This conversation revolves around reflections related to
Osas Yanov,
queer. It deals with how the term is deployed and utilized;
Gminis-Vulcano,
2014, instalacin its reach, contagiousness and limitations in the practices of
y performance/ three people active in academia, the theater and the visual
installation and
performance,
arts: Julieta Massacese, Silvio Lang and myself, respec-
Buenos Aires. tively. With the intention of creating more questions rather
Ph: Osas Yanov
than pursuing categorical conclusions we use a thematic
outline that marks the following points:
-If marketing mechanisms have managed to colonize our
subjectivity by way of reiterated stereotypes (in a binary,
male-female style) in order to direct us toward disciplined
consumption, what do gender theories propose in the face
of this monster?
-Queer seems to be a current issue or a struggle to generate
contexts of minimum coexistence that is always placed
over a situation of resistance with an agenda of day to
day needs and emergencies. Can we think about a queer
future? Or are the two terms opposites?
-What does the dont speak for our bodies demand,
frequently present in demonstrations, especially regard-
ing the trans body, refer to? What empathetic-corporal
possibilities does it exclude? Must one pertain to certain
bodies or certain groups in order to be able to speak? In
this sense, can we think about a willful queer as op-
posed to a natural one? In what ways are queer subjects
constructed and how can this model be applied to other
social fields?
-Inverting the terms: What has the queer movement not
contributed to society as yet?
-Can relationships be drawn between esoteric searches
and mutant bodies?
JULIETA MASSACESE
The first thing Im interested in saying is that I believe that
our collective potential has been neutralized by market-
ing mechanics, at least as far as the metropolitan map is
concerned, because this obviously depends our individual
locality in terms of social class, geography and all the rest.
Here in the city, beginning with the institutional assimila-
tion of our struggles, Facebook and other visibility devices
have shifted what once was or could have been collective to
instances that are more personal or individual, focused on
names and on generating images of the self. These politics
of visibility have been as much of a key as they have been
a trap for us. They have undoubtedly left us with some ad-
vantages in terms of rights (matrimonial, gender identity,
assisted fertilization, etc.), but they have also dragged us
toward simplifications and exaggerated polarities. Today
we should come to an equilibrium of some kind; we should
ask ourselves how much we have negotiated in the dialec-
tics of recognition. A lot. The image of Mujeres Pblicas
at the Reina Sofa comes to mind, for example.
Once something has been assimilated, thats it: its
completely subsumed. I think that activism today is en-
tirely spent. Nothing is being proposed, not from the social
movements, anyway. Although, on the other hand, some
new subjects are appearing that are interesting. The people
who are working with Teora Gorda (Fat Theory)[1] come
to mind, or new modes of sexuality like asexuality, for ex-
ample. These are actors that didnt used to be on the map.
Generally speaking, everything is very still and as-
similated, and this is why Im interested in moving within
invisibility, as opposed to the politics of visibility, as a po-
tent territory for action.
181
OSAS YANOV
Me qued pensando en lo que decas de las trampas. En
qu trampa podramos haber estado cayendo para ahora
estar tan expuestos pero tan silenciados, segn lo que es-
tabas diciendo?
JULIETA
Creo que son varias. En el segundo eje que habas plantea-
do para esta conversacin, preguntabas si lo queer siempre
era un tema del presente o poda ser algo del futuro. Pen-
sabas en lo queer como en el intento de generar contex-
tos de convivencia. Yo me qued pensando mucho en esa
pregunta y para m es todo lo contrario. Para m, lo queer
es el futuro: lo que Kafka llamaba el pueblo por venir. Lo
queer, en las acepciones que encuentro ms interesantes y
recupero para el debate, es puro futuro porque est todo
el tiempo en tensin con lo que es. En trminos del movi-
miento LGBTI fuimos demorados por muchas cosas. En
la medida en que fuimos consiguiendo derechos, que a su
vez son necesarios, se dio una asimilacin institucional, un
lavado tanto esttico como poltico de los reclamos y una
construccin para el afuera de imgenes aceptables de lo
que somos. Qu implica esto? Limar contradicciones ha-
cia adentro, corporativizar, polarizar, volver digerible mu-
cho de lo repulsivo que, al pensar en la joven lesbiana que
era a los dieciocho aos puedo ver claramente: traamos
una forma de vida que era repulsiva, que tena mucho de
ruptura, y que en trminos de negociar con el Estado, con
el afuera, con lo social, ha sido higienizado, neutralizado.
Por eso vemos que hoy, si bien funcionan polticas de tipo
ONG, los grupos ms radicales estn muy diseminados y
escasamente organizados.
SILVIO LANG
Creo que en el activismo y en la militancia de las polticas
identitarias de reconocimiento hay un gran problema a
trabajar. Las polticas de reconocimiento, en algn pun-
to, han fijado la potencia de las subjetividades insumisas.
Lohana Berkins ya deca en el ao 1998: No queremos
que el Estado legisle sobre nuestros deseos. Lohana tena
bien en claro la diferencia entre deseo y derecho. Y quiz,
las comunidades de cuerpos insumisos hemos confundido
los dos planos y nos hemos quedado pegados al plano
de la poltica identitaria de reconocimiento de derechos
por parte del Estado y hemos abandonado el campo de
la lucha del deseo. El campo del deseo nos enlaza y nos
conecta con otras personas, con otras subjetividades, con
otras luchas: all pueden instituirse luchas transversales. Se
trata de un espacio mucho ms abierto que la poltica iden-
titaria de reconocimiento un espacio de composicin y
de pensar ms bien los modos de vivir comunitarios que
los modos de ser. Entonces, me parece que ah nos atasca-
mos con el ser; que el ser nos jug una mala pasada. No
obstante, podemos pensar en trminos de genealoga de
las luchas: qu podemos actualizar hoy, cules fueron las
bifurcaciones que no cuidamos. La agenda es siempre un
instrumento de la poltica representativa y, nosotras, siem-
pre estamos sustrayndonos a la poltica representativa y
sus cdigos ordenancistas.
OSAS
Estaba pensando mientras hablabas, sobre esa sensacin,
que ahora noto un poquito ms a la distancia, yendo a
nuestra dcada anterior, la dcada K, si se quiere (como
tambin a los tiempos del primer y segundo peronismo):
ese gusto sincero y proselitista de ir integrando a la topo-
grafa poltica las nuevas minoras. Pero sin embargo, y that sincere, evangelical pleasure in gradually integrating
EDITOR I A L
VOLV ER A L F U T U RO I I
OSAS YANOV
Im still thinking about what you were saying about
traps. What trap might we have fallen into to wind up so
exposed, but also so silenced now, in terms of what you
were saying?
JULIETA
I think there are several. In line with the second point you
were suggesting for this conversation, asking whether the
queer theme is a current one, or might be a future issue.
You were considering queer as an attempt to generate con-
texts of co-existence. I have given a great deal of thought
to this question and for me, its just the opposite. For me,
queer is the future: it is what Kafka used to call the people
to come. Queer, in the inflexions that I find to be the most
interesting and that I take up for the debate, is pure future
because it is always in a state of tension with what it is. In
terms of the LGBT movement, we were delayed for many
reasons. As we gradually gained rights, which are at the
same time necessary, an institutional assimilation took
place that resulted in an aesthetic, in addition to political
laundering of our demands and a construction of accept-
able images of what we are that is too much for the sake
of appearances. What does this imply? Smoothing away
inner contradictions, polarization, corporativization, and
making much of what is repulsive digestible. Im thinking
about what I could clearly see as a young, eighteen year-old
lesbian: we were bringing up a way of life then that was
repulsive and had much to do with rupture, and in terms
of negotiating with the State, with the outside and with so-
ciety, that has been neutralized and sterilized. That is why,
as we can see today, non-profit type politics function quite
well, while the most radical groups are widely dispersed
and scarcely organized.
SILVIO LANG
I believe there is a large issue to be dealt with in activism
and militancy regarding identity recognition politics. At
some point, recognition politics locked down the potency
of rebellious subjectivities. Lohana Berkins said as far
back as 1998: We dont want the State to legislate our
desires. Lohana was also clearly aware of the difference
between rights and desire. And it may be that we com-
munities of rebellious bodies have confused one with the
other and aligned ourselves too much with identity rec-
ognition politics and rights on the part of the State while
abandoning the field of struggle regarding desire. The field
of desire ties us together and links us with other people,
other subjectivities and other struggles: there, transversal
struggles can be established. It is a question of a space
that is far broader than identity recognition politicsa
state of compositionand of thinking about ways of liv-
ing in community more so than ways of being. So then,
it seems to me that we get stuck on being; that being has
played a trick on us. Nevertheless, we can think in terms
of struggles genealogy: what can be updated today, and
which of the forking paths we have been careless about. An
agenda is always an instrument of representation politics,
and we are always removing ourselves from representation
politics and its codes of discipline.
OSAS
While you were talking, I was thinking about the sensation
that now, at a distance, looking back on our previous de-
cade, the K decade if you like (as well as the eras of Perns
first and second presidencies), I notice a little bit more:

en contradiccin, ir tambin enmarcando en viejos para-
digmas las subjetividades disidentes y quiz de ese modo
inmovilizarlas.
JULIETA
Claro, por otro lado, tambin es cierto que la agenda de
derechos (en el sentido legislativo: matrimonio igualitario,
ley de identidad de gnero, ley de fertilizacin asistida)
uni a un montn de gente con la que de otra manera nun-
ca hubiramos podido convivir. Pero mucho nos pas por
arriba: el kirchnerismo, Facebook, el neoliberalismo. Un
conjunto de polticas y dispositivos que fue fragmentando
esa red de manera que hoy ya no es fcil dar con una clase
de grupalidades que parecen fuera del horizonte.
SILVIO
Nos preexiste un contexto que es el peronismo. Osvaldo
Lamborghini deca que vivimos en el pas de la repre-
sentacin, porque tenemos el peronismo. El peronismo
es esa capacidad voraz de representarlo todo: sos prole-
tario, te otorgo derechos sindicales; sos mujer, te doy el
derecho al voto; sos nio, te mando la bicicleta; sos puto,
te pods casar y tener familia; sos trava, te doy el DNI.
Lo que funciona ah es la poltica de representacin y lo
que perdemos es lo que vos decs, Julieta: cierto anonima-
to. Ese anonimato es para m la potencia sensible de las
subjetividades insumisas de una comunidad sensible. Y es
en esas comunidades insumisas donde pueden aparecer
diferencias radicales de la existencia. En cambio, que te
represente el peronismo o el Estado, o el paradigma de go-
bierno que sea, implica que algo de tu ontologa diferencial
queda reducido y es adaptado al cdigo representacional
de esa poltica. Entonces, hay un excedente de potencia,
un virtual no inteligible, no visible, no actuable, que se
excluye y se normativiza en pos de la poltica de inclusin.
JULIETA
Volviendo a la relacin con el futuro que plante Osas,
qu rol tiene el arte en proponer nuevas subjetividades?
OSAS
Yo estoy muy mareado respecto de quines tienen hoy esas
herramientas. Dnde estn esos invisibles que podran
generar algn tipo de cambio? S que estoy hablando de
algo abstracto, y que me adelanto a la pregunta sobre las
bsquedas esotricas y los cuerpos mutantes y si stos po-
dran ser una solucin que era una de las ltimas pre- Im really disoriented in terms of who has these tools in
guntas que habamos planteado para esta charla, pero,
mientras tanto, no encuentro movimientos disruptivos
que modifiquen el panorama.
JULIETA
Sobre los actores que estn apareciendo recientemente
y que son interesantes: veo la asexualidad, que molesta
porque irrumpe contra la productividad hipersexualizada
de la poca; el movimiento gordo, que trae nuevas coor-
denadas tericas (pienso en el libro reciente de Contrera
y Cuello[2]) y las identidades no binarias que, si bien han
existido, comienzan a nombrarse como tales (travestis,
lesbianas que no son mujeres, maricas que no son varo-
nes, personas agnero o de gnero fluido, etctera). Esto es
algo que es muy queer y que est a la vez generando una
proliferacin de categoras identitarias y destruyendo las
taxonomas comunes de homosexual, bisexual, etctera.
Pero volviendo a la pregunta que hace Osas, me interes
mucho su idea de una bsqueda esotrica. Me gust la
implicancia de lo esotrico como algo para iniciados. Una
suerte de criptologa. Un lenguaje hacia adentro, que me
result afn a la idea de invisibilidad, a la idea de fracturar
182
the new minorities into the political topography. Nev-
ertheless, and in contradiction to this, it was also framing
dissident subjectivities within old paradigms, perhaps im-
mobilizing them as a result.
JULIETA
Clearly, on the other hand, its also true that the agenda of
rights (in the legislative sense: same-sex marriage, gender
identity laws, assisted fertilization laws) brought together
a lot of people who never would have been able to get
along together otherwise. We tended to ignore a lot of this:
Kirchnerism, Facebook and neoliberalism. There was a
group of policies and devices that fragmented this network
in such a way that today, its no longer easy to find groups
of a sort that would seem to lie beyond that horizon.
SILVIO
There is a context that existed before us, which is Per-
onism. Osvaldo Lamborhini, for example, used to say
that we were living in the country of representation
because we had Peronism. Peronism is that voracious ca-
pacity to represent everything: if youre the proletariat,
it gives you union rights; if youre a woman, it gives you
the right to vote; if youre a kid, it sends you a bicycle; if
youre gay, you can get married and have a family; if youre
trans, it gives you your ID card. What is functioning there
is representation politics and what we lose is what you
were saying, Julieta: a certain degree of anonymity. For
me, this anonymity is rebellious subjectivities sensitive
potential to have a sensitive community. It is in these re-
bellious communities that radical differences in existence
can appear. On the other hand, being represented by the
State or Peronism or any government paradigm implies
that some part of your differential ontology winds up
being reduced and adapted to that political spaces code
of representation. There is an excess of potency, then, a
non-intelligible virtual entity that is invisible, cannot be
acted upon and is self-excluding, normalizing itself in
pursuit of policies of inclusion.
JULIETA
Getting back to Osas idea about a relationship with the
future, what role does art play in proposing new subjec-
tivities?
OSAS
their hands today. Where are those invisible beings capable
of generating some kind of change? I know Im talking
about something quite abstract, and that Im getting ahead
of the question about the esoteric search for mutant bod-
ies, and whether they might be a solution which was one
of the last things we had talked about for this conversation,
but in the meantime I dont see any disruptive movements
that modify the panorama.
JULIETA
Regarding the actors of interest that have been appear-
ing recently: I see asexuality, which disrupts because it
barges in against the grain of the eras hyper-sexualized
productivity; the fat movement, which brings new theo-
retical coordinates (Im thinking of Contrera and Cuellos
recent book[2]) and the non-binary identities that, though
they have always existed, begin to be denominated as such
(transvestites, lesbians who are not women, gays who are
not men, non-gendered people or those with fluid genders,
etc.). This is all very queer, and at the same time is generat-
ing a proliferation of identity categories and destroying
common taxonomies of homosexual, bisexual, etc. But
183
la representacin. Y, si pienso en limitaciones de la poca,
pienso en algunos quiebres, como la diferencia entre lo
humano y lo animal, entre lo humano y la mquina y lo
digital como parte integrante de nuestras vidas. Algunas
bsquedas pueden ir por esas vas.
Asimismo, al plantearme cuerpos mutantes, pensaba
por ejemplo en cuerpos exhaustos, en particular el cuerpo
del estrs, que es un cuerpo muy propio de la poca. En
los cuerpos enfermos, modificados por las enfermedades
pero que no estn necesariamente anclados en narrativas
heroicas del fracaso o del xito, pensaba en los cuerpos
que no funcionan como estandarte, digamos, ni son tan
fcilmente apropiables, o no han entrado en una economa
de apropiacin.
En esta lnea, pensaba tambin en los cuerpos mascu-
linos que no pertenecen a varones cisexuales, es decir, cuer-
pos de lesbianas butch, cuerpos de varones trans. Hay una
diferencia muy grande entre esta esttica y la feminidad no
practicada por mujeres cis (ya sea marica, trans, drag o tra-
vesti): estas feminidades han sido ampliamente explora-
das, estetizadas y, dira, hasta explotadas: nos queda muy
claro que son construidas y podemos trabajar artstica y
filosficamente en torno a ello. Pero con la masculinidad
no: aparece inmune y protegida por un manto de natura-
lidad y adscripta a sus propietarios. Las masculinidades de
varones trans y de lesbianas (e incluso, las masculinidades
de mujeres) es un terreno que no entra en el rgimen de lo
visible, no han sido capturadas ni pensadas del todo.
SILVIO
Me parecen muy interesantes las figuras de los cuerpos
enfermos que plantea Julieta, y la de los cuerpos invisibles,
que trae Osas. Pienso en los cuerpos annimos estresados,
panicosos, depresivos que produce la vida que nos hace
vivir la ontologa neoliberal, basada en la reproduccin
comunicacional e informtica de los datos; el clculo y
el rendimiento; la competencia y su lgica del fracaso y
el xito; la abstraccin material infinita de las finanzas.
Santiago Lpez Petit, en su libro Hijos de la noche, en-
cuentra una afeccin nueva, neoliberal, que llama fatiga.
Se trata del afecto de ese cuerpo que no rinde, que no se
adapta a la normalidad neoliberal; que quiere vivir, pero
no puede; que est detenido, pero que no es depresivo y
para el que la psicopatologa no encuentra explicaciones.
Son esos cuerpos annimos que estn detectando, como
sensores, lo que el realismo capitalista hace con ellos.
Padecen la enfermedad de la normalidad. Para detectar
esa enfermedad hay que preguntarse qu nos pasa con
la vida que llevamos. No preguntarnos quines somos; si
no qu nos pasa, cmo estamos viviendo y cmo quere- bodies that, like sensors, are detecting what capitalist real-
mos vivir. Ya no se trata de un deber ser, o de reivindicar
una identidad como en la poltica identitaria de reconoci-
miento, si no de preguntarnos qu nos est pasando, qu is happening to us, how we are living and how we want to
estrategias de sobrevivencia y de organizacin podemos
compartir; qu maneras de vivir estamos produciendo con
lo que nos estn haciendo, en la vida individualista que el
neoliberalismo nos hace vivir, y qu sensibilidades se estn
reduciendo o resintiendo ah. Eso es hacer una comunidad
sensible: no ya pensar qu debe ser, como la militancia
tradicional o la poltica representativa parlamentaria, sino
cmo vivimos y cmo queremos vivir nuestras existencias.
Me parece que en el cmo queremos vivir, en los modos
de organizacin de nuestras vidas hoy, hay una potencia
colectiva de los cuerpos, la posibilidad de curarse de la
normalidad capitalista. Estamos citados a investigar eso:
EDITOR I A L
VOLV ER A L F U T U RO I I
to return to the question Osas poses, Im very interested
in his idea of an esoteric search. I like the implications of
the esoteric as something for the initiated, as a kind of
cryptology. An inward-looking language, related in some
way to the idea of invisibility, the idea of fracturing rep-
resentation. If I think about the limitations of the era, I
think about certain ruptures, like the difference between
human and animal, between humans and machines and
the digital realm as part of our lives. Some explorations
might be along these lines.
In considering mutant bodies, for example, I was
similarly thinking about exhausted bodies, in particular
about the stressed body, which pertains quite specifically
to the era. I was thinking about sick bodies, modified by
illnesses but that are not necessarily connected to heroic
narratives of success and failure, about bodies that dont
function as standards, in a word, and are thus not easily
appropriated, or that havent entered into an economy of
appropriation.
Along these lines, I was also thinking about mascu-
line bodies that dont pertain to cissexual men, in other
words, the bodies of butch lesbians, the bodies of trans
men. There is a very big difference between this aesthetic
and the femininity not practiced by cis women (whether
gay, trans, drag or transvestite): these femininities have
been extensively explored, aestheticized and, I would say,
exploited: it is very clear to us that they are constructions
and we can work with them on artistic and philosophical
levels. Not so in the case of masculinity: it would appear
to be immune, under a protective cloak of naturalness and
ascribed to its owners. Trans men and lesbians different
forms of masculinity (and even womens masculinity)
make up a terrain that doesnt enter into the realm of the
visible, it hasnt been captured or thoroughly considered.
SILVIO
I find the figures of the sick body, as Julieta suggested, and
that of the invisible body, that Osas mentions interesting.
I think about anonymous, stressed, panicky and depressive
bodies, produced by the life the neo-liberal ontology obliges
us to live, based on the communicational and informational
reproduction of data; calculation and output; competition
and its success/failure logic; and the infinite material ab-
straction of finance. In his book Hijos de la Noche, Santiago
Lpez Petit find a new, neo-liberal affliction called fatigue. It
is the affliction of a body that doesnt perform, doesnt adapt
to neo-liberal norms; that wants to live but cannot; that is
detained but not depressive, a body for which psychopa-
thology can find no explanation. These are the anonymous
ism does to them. They suffer from the illness of normality.
In order to detect this illness, we must ask ourselves what
live. This is no longer a case of what one should be, or of
vindicating an identity as in the case of identity recognition
politics, but of asking ourselves what is happening to us,
what survival and organizational strategies we can share;
what ways of life we are producing with what they are do-
ing to us, within the individualism that neo-liberal politics
makes us live in, and what sensibilities are being reduced or
are resisting there. This is what it means to make a sensitive
community: to no longer think about what one should do
in terms of traditional militancy, or of parliamentary repre-
sentational politics, but rather about how we live and how
we want to live out our existence. It seems to me that there

nuestras situaciones emocionales y corporales actuales,
que nos resultan irrespirables.
JULIETA
Totalmente. Me parece que no estamos pudiendo generar
todava un diagnstico y concuerdo en que pensar los afec-
tos [3] es una va potente para comenzar: pensar el estrs,
pensar la ansiedad, porque son las afecciones caractersti-
cas del neoliberalismo.
OSAS
Estas afecciones provocadas por efecto de la especulacin
financiera son comunes a todos. Atraviesan por el centro a
cualquier clase o a cualquier cuerpo, nadie queda exento
Yo me preguntaba qu le podran deber los movimientos
LGTBI y queer a la sociedad. Pienso que nosotros tenemos
la expertise (hablando en trminos empresariales): sabemos
conmovernos en grupo. Tratando de hacer un anlisis de
cules son las enfermedades contemporneas podramos
aplicar nuestro conocimiento emptico a ellas en vez de
estar luchando para un crculo cerrado. Trascendiendo cla-
ses y sectores, esa experiencia histrica de comunin con el
afectado podra ser llevada hacia afuera. Salir del estado de
resistencia y comunicar cules han sido nuestras estrategias
de organizacin frente al dolor. Siendo exagerado, imagino
que eso podra ser una deuda de lo LGTBI y queer con la
sociedad: trascender la defensa del grupo de pertenencia y
compartir la enseanza de la empata.
JULIETA
Me gusta lo que decs. Hay una gente de La Plata, Micro-
polticas de la desobediencia sexual en el arte, que hace
jornadas todos los aos. Una de ellas, que titularon Qu
nos ofrece la vergenza?, nos propona, frente al paradig-
ma del orgullo, pensar la vergenza como potencia. Entre
ellas, la vergenza de no poder resistir al neoliberalismo,
de no poder construir alianzas.
SILVIO
Estaba buena la idea de la empata que propone Osas
porque me parece que si hay algo que se sustrae al orden
conservador-empresarial-securitista del realismo capi-
talista es la presencia irreductible de los afectos, de las
posibilidades de conocer a otros, de las facultades cog-
nitivas y performticas para organizarse con otros, de
las capacidades afectivas de crear espacios de encuentro.
Entonces, me parece que ah el movimiento deseante de
travas-trans-tortas-maricas tiene un saber hacer, o como
decs, una expertise con la diferencia, que no niega la exis-
tencia del otro.
JULIETA
La empata tiene que ver con la pregunta que haca Osas
sobre el pedido No hablen por nuestros cuerpos que
aparece en las manifestaciones sobre todo de activistas
trans. Se preguntaba, primero, a qu se refiere y, segundo,
si deja fuera las posibilidades emptico-corporales. Res-
pecto de lo primero que nos puede llegar a dar algunas
lneas interesantes para pensar la empata, No hablen up in terms of asking them not to speak for our bod-
por nuestros cuerpos se refiere al famoso lema Nada
sobre nosotros sin nosotros, que bsicamente significa
que no es legtimo determinar polticas para una pobla-
cin sin que participen directamente aquellas personas
involucradas.
Entonces, ms que una cuestin de privilegio epis-
tmico solamente (que haya una experiencia que cuen-
ta ms que otra para hablar de un tema), tiene que ver
con una cuestin poltica. En el sentido de que hablar por
otros, por lo general, lo que hace es construirse como una
18 4
is a collective strength of bodies in how we want to live and
in ways of organizing our lives today, the possibility of cur-
ing ones self from capitalist normalcy. We have been called
upon to investigate this: our current emotional and corporal
situations that we find asphyxiating.
JULIETA
I totally agree. It seems to me that we still arent able to
generate a diagnosis and I agree that thinking about af-
fect[3] is a powerful way to begin: thinking about stress
and anxiety because they are neo-liberalisms most char-
acteristic afflictions.
OSAS
The afflictions provoked by financial speculation are com-
mon to all. They cut across all classes, all bodies, no one is
exempt from them I was asking myself what the LGTBI
and Queer movements might owe to society. I think that
we have expertise (to put it in business terms): we know
how to bring ourselves to be moved on a group level. In try-
ing to analyze which illnesses are contemporary, we might
be able to apply our empathetic knowledge to them in-
stead of fighting for a closed circle. By transcending classes
and sectors, this historical experience of communion with
those affected might be taken outside. We could emerge
from a state of resistance to communicate what our orga-
nizational strategies have been in the face of pain. Exagger-
ating somewhat, I imagine that this might be a debt that
LGTBI and Queer have to society: to transcend defense
of the group that pertains to us and share the teachings
of empathy.
JULIETA
I like what youre saying. There are people in La Plata,
Micropolticas de la desobediencia sexual en al arte (Mi-
cro-politics of Sexual Disobedience in the Arts) that hold
a congress every year. One was titled Qu nos ofrece
la vergenza? (What Does Shame Have to Offer Us?),
which proposed thinking about shame as a strength in the
face of the pride paradigm. Among others, the shame of
not being able to resist neo-liberalism, of not being able
to form alliances.
SILVIO
That idea of empathy that Osas proposes is a good one,
because I think that if there is anything that removes itself
from the conservative-business-securitist order of capi-
talist realism it is the irrepressible presence of emotional
ties, the possibility of getting to know others, the cogni-
tive and performative faculties to organize with others,
the capacity for affection that creates zones of encoun-
ter. So, then, it seems to me that the movement of desire
transvestite-transsexual-lesbian-gay has a know-how, or,
as you put it, an expertise with difference that does not
negate the others existence.
JULIETA
Empathy has to do with the question that Osas brought
ies that appears in demonstrations, above all those by
trans activists. The first question that was being asked was
what that refers to and the second, whether it would leave
out empathetic corporal possibilities. With regard to the
first, which could provide us with a few interesting lines of
thought regarding empathy, not to speak for our bodies
refers to the famous motto Nothing about us without
us, which basically means that it is illegitimate to deter-
mine policies that act upon a group without that groups
direct participation in the process.
 1.
Marcha conmemoracin
40 aniversario del
24 de marzo de 1976,
columnaColectiva
Lohana Berkins, creada
por Marlene Wayar/
March commemorating
40th anniversary of
March 24, 1976,

Colectiva Lohana
Berkins, created by
Marlene Wayar, 2016,
Buenos Aires.
Ph: Osas Yanov

2
Silvio Lang
El Fiord, 2016, Teatro
Coln, Buenos Aires.
Ph: Luz Soria

3
24Marcha del Orgullo
LGTBIQ/
24 LGBT Pride Parade,
2015, Buenos Aires

4
Marlene Wayar,
activista travesti
feminista/transvestite
feminist activist,
Argentina.
Ph: Alejandro Ros
 1
Silvio Lang,
Saln Skeffington,
2016, Festival
permanente de obras
cortas, Teatro Bombn,
La Casona Iluminada,
Buenos Aires.
Ph: Nacho Miyashiro

2, 3
Osas Yanov,
Gomero, el orden
de las orgas, 2016,
videoinstalacin/
video installation,
Gwangju Biennale 2017,
Gwangju, Corea del Sur.
Ph: Osas Yanov

4
Silvio Lang,
Aprender un cuerpo,
2015, Milin,
Buenos Aires.
Ph: Nahuel Colazo
187
prctica de dominacin en la que se ocultan los propios
privilegios de quien la administra.
Me parece que la empata nos puede servir para ilu-
minar estas condiciones de opresin. Es importante no
reemplazar a aquella persona con la que se empatiza y re-
conocer nuestro papel en esa dinmica. La pregunta tica
que podra ordenar un sentido para una empata poltica,
para m, sera: puedo acompaar sin protagonizar o sin
suplantar al otro?
SILVIO
Silvia Rivera Cusicanqui, habla del reconocimiento del
efecto autoral de la escucha como la capacidad de escu-
char-mirar: hay un poder mirar en la escucha y quiz esa
empata la podamos asociar al ejercicio compositivo que
hacemos en nuestra prctica artstica.
JULIETA
Tambin hay que contextualizar un poco los usos de lo
trans en la Argentina, que han sido enormemente re-
torizados y subsecuentemente instrumentalizados por
personas cisexuales. Como el cuadro de Delacroix, La
libertad guiando al pueblo: ponemos a la libertad en un
cuerpo femenino, pero en el pueblo son todos hombres.
Lo femenino aparece solamente como la imagen de una
virtud; es una figura muy hermosa para hablar de la liber-
tad, pero en trminos materiales, en trminos reales, deja
todo como est o peor, porque lo idealiza, lo vuelve in-
tangible y no modifica nada. En el mismo sentido lo trans
ha sido material de doctorados, de becas y exposiciones
para gente cisexual: ha sido utilizado como estandarte o
ideal poltico, el famoso todxs somos trans y otros ti-
pos de utilizaciones y apropiaciones muy problemticas.
SILVIO
Cuando Rivera Cusicanqui habla del reconocimiento
del efecto autoral de la escucha tiene que ver con una
situacin en la cual la escucha de la enunciacin trans,
por ejemplo, realmente te desenfoca. Escuchar el cuerpo
trans erosiona todas las categoras previas que tenas para
pensarlo. Te pone en un impasse del pensamiento pero, al
mismo tiempo, en un impasse corporal, porque no sabs
cmo sentir lo que siente un cuerpo trans ni qu sents vos
con esa presencia diagonal. Hay que estar disponible a esa
ambivalencia y precariedad en la que te puede implicar
la palabra de una persona trans. Te agita y es desde ah
que se puede seguir hablando, escribiendo y produciendo
imgenes y acciones.
JULIETA
Asimismo es necesario conservar las diferencias. Es decir,
no querer neutralizar todo aquello que nos separa, en tr-
minos de privilegios. Recupero esta nocin que trae Silvio
de la escucha porque al menos yo, como persona que est
en la academia y en la prctica acadmica, escucho no slo
el testimonio trans, sino tambin este reclamo trans tan
insistente: no queremos ser simplemente un testimonio,
queremos tambin ser reconocidas y reconocidos como
tericos, como productores de conocimiento. No slo
sujetos que testimonien, porque ese lugar es tambin muy
instrumentalizable y, en un punto, muy fijo.
Por otro lado, podra ensayar otro argumento en torno
a la prctica artstica, si es que le queda an algn rasgo de
autonoma, como ejercicio para defender alguna idea de
empata, sobre todo en lo que respecta a la va experimental.
El hecho de remitirse a cuerpos de todo tipo y a vivencias
que no son las propias puede ser una lnea de investigacin
y creacin muy rica: si esto va acompaado de una visin
EDITOR I A L
VOLV ER A L F U T U RO I I
So then, more than an issue of epistemic privilege alone
(that one experience should matter more than another
in speaking about a particular issue), it has to do with a
political issue. In the sense that in general, what speaking
for others does is to construct a practice of domination in
which the privileges held by those who administrate it are
concealed.
It seems to me that empathy can serve to shed light
on these conditions of oppression. It is important not to
replace the person with whom one is empathizing, and to
recognize our role in this dynamic. The ethical question that
might provide order for the meaning of political empathy in
my opinion would be: can I accompany the other without
becoming a protagonist myself or supplanting them?
SILVIO
Silvia Rivera Cusicanqui speaks about recognition of the
authorship effect of listening as the capacity to listen-
look: there is a being able to look in listening, and perhaps
this is the empathy that we can associate to the composi-
tional exercise that we carry out in our art practice.
JULIETA
The uses of trans in Argentina must also be contextual-
ized somewhat; they have been rhetoricalized and sub-
sequently instrumentalized to a large extent by cissexual
people. Like in Delacroixs painting Liberty Leading the
People: we put liberty into a feminine body, but the peo-
ple are all men. The feminine appears only as the image of
virtue; it is a very beautiful figure for speaking of liberty,
but in material terms, in real terms, it leaves everything
as it is or even worse, because it is idealized, it becomes
intangible and changes nothing. In the same way, trans
has become a topic for doctorates, scholarships and ex-
hibitions for cissexual people: it has been utilized as a
political idea or banner, the famous todxs somos trans
(we are all trans) and other very problematic forma of
appropriation and usage.
SILVIO
When Rivera Cusicanqui talks about recognition of the
authorship effect of listening, it has to do with a situa-
tion where listening to the trans statement, for example,
actually makes you loose focus. Listening to the trans body
erodes all the categories you previously had for thinking
about it. It puts you at an impasse for thought, but at the
same time, at a corporal impasse because you dont how
to feel what a trans body feels, nor do you know what you
feel about this diagonal presence. You have to be open to
this ambivalence and precariousness related to what the
words of a trans person might imply for you. This agitates
you and it is from that place that speaking, writing and
producing images and actions can continue.
JULIETA
In much the same way, differences have to be preserved.
In other words, it means not wanting to neutralize ev-
erything that separates us in terms of privileges. Id like
to pick up on the notion that Silvio presents regarding
listening because at least for me, as a person who is in
academia and involved in academic practice, I listen not
only to trans testimony but also the trans demand that is
so insistent: we dont want to be simply testimony, we
also want to be recognized [across genders] as theoreti-
cians, as producers of knowledge. They are not only
subjects who testify, because that place is also very vul-
nerable to being instrumentalized, and to a certain ex-
tent, very fixed.

polticamente informada, lo que resulte podr generar mo-
dulaciones no slo ms responsables, sino asimismo ms
poderosas. En este sentido, respecto de las apropiaciones
que se realizan, incluso las ms polmicas, una no sabe qu
puedan suscitar en el futuro; no todo est dicho.
SILVIO
Se trata, tambin, de un ejercicio de autodescolonizacin
para poder componer con lo trans, sin sucumbir en un
extractivismo de las personas trans. La teora y la prctica
artstica muchas veces producen explotaciones extracti-
vistas de las vidas trans.
JULIETA
Totalmente; es un problema tico, poltico y epistemolgi-
co que persiste. Siempre me queda la pregunta sobre cmo
representar, no el otro, sino el mismo lado: en relacin
con lo trans, lo cis (nunca ms adecuada la etimologa de
la palabra).
Pareciera que es ms difcil, no en la va potente de
la invisibilidad de la que hablbamos ms arriba, sino en
la invisibilidad del statu quo, del lugar del poder que se
resiste a ser develado fcilmente. La diferencia queda del
lado de lo marcado y parece ms sencillo poder pensarla
en tanto tal: sealar lo homosexual, lo femenino, lo trans,
mientras que lo heterosexual, lo masculino y lo cisexual
no quiere ser revelado como construccin, justamente por
su carcter privilegiado. Elaborar la masculinidad como
dispositivo, por ejemplo, implica pensarla como producto,
artefacto, mscara. Sin embargo, en nuestras sociedades
no hay nada ms difcil que disfrazarse de varn. Parece
un absurdo del pensamiento y de la percepcin porque
est completamente establecida la supuesta naturalidad
de los varones cisexuales y sus masculinidades como sus
ms propias propiedades.
OSAS
Cuando le coment a Ins Katzenstein los lineamientos
con que se iba a desarrollar esta conversacin me hizo una
pregunta que tambin me la hago yo, aunque que desde
dentro me resulta muy difcil responder: hay un queer
voluntarista y un queer natural? Cmo se construyen los
sujetos queer si es que hubiera un modo de construccin?
JULIETA
Creo que la teora queer en nuestro contexto debe anali-
zarse en relacin con la recepcin que ha tenido localmen-
te. En muchos casos, la lectura ha sido de corte voluntaris-
ta, una suerte de construccionismo radical. La idea, como
dice Moria [Casn], de que soy la diseadora de m misma.
Es una va que es muy potente, pero que tiene algunos pro-
blemas, o al menos debera levantarnos algunas sospechas.
Ms bien, estamos en un rango de matices en los cuales
la determinacin absoluta y la agencia pura son slo ex-
tremos. Por ejemplo, que el gnero sea performativo no
significa que yo estoy actuando mi propia obra improvi-
sada a cada momento, como en un stand up en el que soy
mi directora, actriz y guionista. Ms bien lo performati-
vo expresa que toda actuacin genrica es una repeticin
normada, una citacin constante de ciertos libretos muy
codificados, y que ms bien es rara la ocasin en la que
la repeticin, justamente como es repeticin, introduce la
diferencia. All es donde hay resistencia, pero la resistencia
siempre est tensionada, por lo que hay que tener cuidado
de no caer en un voluntarismo ingenuo, en una idea del
dominio del yo que es tambin muy afn al neoliberalismo.
Hablo del sujeto heroico, que es hipersexualizado, que
tiene que estar conectado todo el tiempo, etctera.
188
On the other hand, I could test out a different argument
regarding art practice, if that still retains any trace of au-
tonomy, as an exercise to defend some idea of empathy,
above all with respect to the experimental vein. Referring
to bodies of all types and to experiences that are not ones
own could be a very interesting line of research and cre-
ation: if this is accompanied by a well-informed political
vision, the results might generate modulations that are
not only more responsible, but more powerful as well.
In this sense, regarding the appropriations carried out,
even the most controversial ones, no one knows what the
future might bring; the last word has yet to be spoken.
SILVIO
This is also a question of an exercise of self-decolonization
to be able to work with what is trans without succumb-
ing to an extractivist approach to trans people. Art theory
and practice often produce extractivist exploitations of
trans life.
JULIETA
I totally agree; its an ethical, political and epistemological
problem that still persists. Im always left with the question
of how to represent not the other, but the same side: in
relation to trans, what is cis (the philology of the word was
never more adequate).
It would seem to be more difficult, not in terms of
the potency of the invisibility that we spoke of earlier, but
in the invisibility of the status quo, the seat of power that
resists being revealed easily. Difference remains on the
side of what is marked, and it seems simpler to think of it
as such: to point out the homosexual, feminine and trans
while the heterosexual, masculine and cissexual need not
be revealed as a construction, precisely due to its privileged
nature. For example, elaborating masculinity as a device
implies thinking of it as a product, artifact or mask. In our
societies, however, there is nothing harder than to disguise
yourself as a man. It seems like an absurdity in terms of
thought and perception, because the supposed naturalness
of cissexual men and their masculinities are so completely
established, along with their most pertinent attributes.
OSAS
When I told Ins Katzenstien about the overall lines that
were going to be developed in this conversation, she posed
a question that is also one I ask myself, although from
inside it is a very hard one to answer: are there will-
ful queers as opposed to natural queers? How are queer
subjects constructed, if a form of construction does exist?
JULIETA
I think that in our context, queer theory should be ana-
lyzed in relation to how it has been received locally. In
many cases, the reading has been typified as willful, a
radical constructionism of sorts. Its the idea, as Moria
[Casan] puts it, that I am the designer of my self. This
is a very potent vein, but it presents some problems or
at least should raise some suspicions. What we have is
rather a range of subtleties in between the two extremes
of absolute determination on the one hand and pure
agency on the other. For example, the fact that gender
is performative doesnt mean that Im continually acting
out my own improvised work, like in stand-up, where Im
my own director, writer and actress. Instead, the perfor-
mative aspect expresses that all gender acting is a repeti-
tion of given norms, a constant quoting of certain highly
codified scripts where the occasions on which repetition
introduces difference are very rare indeed, due to its very
 1
Osas Yanov y/and
Venus Team,
T en Las Violetas,
2015, Buenos Aires.
Ph: Osas Yanov

2
Silvio Lang,
Ensayo de Eros, 2016,
Museo de Arte Moderno
de Buenos Aires.
Ph: Cristian Bonaudi

3
La atleta Caster
Semenya, festejando su
oro en los 800 metros en
los Juegos Olmpicos de
Rio 2016. Pudo correr
luego de numerosos
obstculos en torno a
sus elevados ndices
de testosterona/
Athlete Caster Semenya,
celebrating her gold in
the 800 meters at the
Olympic Games Rio
2016. She was allowed
to run in spite of several
obstacles due to high
levels of testosterone.
Ph: AFP

4
Beth Ditto, vocalista
de The Gossip, lesbiana
femme, activista gorda/
vocalist at The Gossip,
lesbian femme, fat
activist. Ph: AFP

OSAS
Yo tena la esperanza ingenua de un queer voluntaris-
ta: un sujeto que, sin haber atravesado unos supuestos
condicionamientos, adoptara lo queer como un buen
proyecto de vida.
JULIETA
Como te digo una cosa te digo la otra: as como se dio
cierta lectura triunfalista de la teora queer, tambin po-
demos recuperar el mbito de diseo de modos de ser,
sobre todo si implica instancias colectivas. All precisa-
mente la resistencia es posible en la medida en que po-
demos hacer algo con todo esto que nos viene dado, e
incluso para la teora, pero de manera ms decisiva para
el arte, la idea de construir y de generar agencia es crucial.
OSAS
Claro, entre las prcticas artsticas este voluntarismo
queer es algo que aparecera, no en el sentido de una
identificacin sexual, sino en el de un ejercicio de cons-
truccin. En este punto veo similares las proclamas queer
a las artsticas, vinculado a qu paradigmas uno gene-
ra obra? cmo sera la creacin desde un paradigma
queer?
JULIETA
Cmo sera?
OSAS
Los tpicos que uno asocia a lo trans, queer, lsbico, gay,
etctera, podran estar coincidiendo con la sensibilidad
en la cual uno enmarca o idealiza lo que debera ser el
arte. Como si tuvieran las mismas razones de existir.
SILVIO
Para m es complicada la nocin voluntarista de lo
queer porque pienso lo queer y lo trans ms all de la
materialidad corporal de cada cual, asociado al azar,
como una fuerza que te toma. Primero, habra que
deshacer lo queer y lo trans como temas, ya sean de la
prctica artstica o de la prctica de la investigacin aca-
dmica. Lo queer y lo trans son situaciones, contextos,
hechos. Hay, una situacin de desobediencia cultural, de
no querer entrar en el rgimen material, visual y discursi-
vo de la distribucin y representacin de los cuerpos y sus
lugares asignados. En el momento en que uno se ve des-
fasado de ese sistema de representacin, sin lugar, en una
lnea de frontera, uno estara en una especie de atopa
trans, y de atopa queer, por decirlo de alguna manera.
OSAS
Cada vez que nombrs la palabra trans yo hago el ejer-
cicio de sustituirla por la palabra contracultural. As, lo
trans, lo queer, etctera, accionara contra-culturalmente
como se supone que hace la prctica artstica.
JULIETA
Recupero la idea de desconfiar de lo temtico o de no
caer en lo temtico. Me parece que, en ese sentido, lo ms
interesante que tiene para proponer lo queer tal vez lo sea
en trminos de renovacin formal. En la medida en que
todo esto pueda pregnar el campo del arte en trminos
ms formales, polticos, estticos es que abona justamen-
te a la reformulacin de los lenguajes. Porque cuando
surge lo temtico, tambin ah se genera una tranquili-
dad, hacemos arte de putos o arte de tortas: caemos otra
vez en la lgica de la representacin y hacemos visible,
por ejemplo, la homosexualidad masculina. Se encapsula
la potencia de esas experiencias y se guarda como un
captulo extra de la historia de la pintura (o del lenguaje
que sea). Es como cuando se crea un instituto de gnero
19 0
nature as repetition. There is where resistance exists, but
resistance is always under tension, and care must be taken
to not fall into ingenuous willfulness with a notion of
dominion of the self that also comes very close to neo-
liberalism. I mean the heroic, hyper-sexualized subject,
who has to be connected at all times, etc.
OSAS
I had the ingenuous hope of a willful queer: a subject who,
without having gone through an assumed type of condi-
tioning, adopted queer as a good life project.
JULIETA
Just like I tell you one thing, I can tell you the other: similar
to how a certain triumphal reading of queer theory took
place, we can also recover the realm of design in ways of be-
ing, above all where collective instances are implied. There,
specifically, resistance is possible to the extent that we can
do something with all this that we have as a given, including
for theory, but in a more decisive way, for art; the idea of
constructing and generating agency is crucial.
OSAS
Of course, in art practice this queer willfulness is something
that would appear, not in the sense of a sexual identifica-
tion, but in that of an exercise in construction. Regarding
this point, I see similarities between queer statements and
artistic ones. In connection with what paradigms does one
generate work, what would creation aligned with a queer
paradigm be?
JULIETA
What would it be like?
OSAS
The topics that one associates with trans, queer, lesbian,
gay, etc. might be coinciding with the sensibility with which
one idealizes or sees the framework of what art should be.
As if they had the same reasons for being.
SILVIO
For me the willful notion of queer is complicated because
I think of queer and trans beyond the material, corporal
sense of each individual, associated with chance, like a
force that is taken hold of. First, queer and trans would
have to be taken apart as issues, whether in terms of art
practice or academic research. Queer and trans are situa-
tions, contexts and deeds. There is a situation of cultural
disobedience, of not wanting to enter into the material,
visual and discursive regime of bodies representation and
distribution in their assigned places. When you see yourself
out of phase with this system of representation, without a
place, on the borderline, one would be in a kind of trans
atopia, or queer atopia, in a manner of speaking.
OSAS
Every time you pronounce the word trans, I do the exercise
of substituting it for the word counter-cultural. This way,
trans, queer, etc. would operate in a counter-cultural way,
just as art practice supposedly does.
JULIETA
Im recovering the idea of mistrusting the thematic, or of not
falling into the thematic. It seems to me that in this sense, the
most interesting thing that queer has to propose may well
be in terms of formal renovation. In as far as all of this can
impregnate the art field in more formal, political or aesthetic
terms, it is fertilizing precisely a reformulation of language.
Because when the thematic arises, it also generates a sense
of tranquility and we make gay art or lesbian art: we fall into
the logic of representation again and we make masculine ho-
mosexuality visible, for example. The strength of these expe-
191
en una universidad, lo que se logra a fin de cuentas es
tambin que nos quedemos todas ah encerradas y que
las cuestiones de gnero no entren en la currcula general.
Mientras tengamos algn grupo de investigacin, algn
seminario y dems, dejamos de ser peligrosas. Nos dan
el instituto para que trabajemos all y no toquemos la
historia de la filosofa antigua, la metafsica, la filosofa
poltica, etctera, que permanecen inmunes.
OSAS
En este sentido, pensaba tambin en dnde qued la am-
bicin de la loca inconformista, antes disruptiva e ines-
table, ahora slo anhela ser inscripta e identificada en
alguna teora, bienal o marco acadmico.
JULIETA
Totalmente. Incluso dentro de las mismas prcticas fi-
losficas, por ejemplo, yo quiero hablar de drones, de
los Juegos Olmpicos, de muchos dominios de objetos y
discursos, y quiero hacerlo con las categoras feministas,
queer y sexualmente disidentes. No quiero estar en la sec-
cin de gnero y sexualidades, quiero que esas variables
contaminen todas las secciones.
OSAS
Recin vengo de una bienal, en la cual la propuesta, con
todas sus complejidades y contradicciones, era pensar si
el arte poda funcionar como un sismgrafo, adscribir
a la hiptesis de que, gracias a la articulacin de obras,
uno podra anticipar un estado, humor actual o porve-
nir social. Esta bienal peda, a mi criterio, algo tab y
prohibido; sentido de utilidad y futurologa en el arte.
Nuevamente, podemos trasladar esto a lo que venimos
conversando. Puede lo queer funcionar como otro sis-
mgrafo de anticipacin?
JULIETA
Hay una futurologa en lo queer. Sobre todo en los lti-
mos tiempos, lo queer ha trazado grandes lneas que an-
ticiparon lo que luego sucedi: pienso en el drag queen.
Lo que ms me interesa de lo queer: a mi juicio est de-
lineando modos de vida futuros, y los avances tcnicos
en materia de modificacin corporal no han hecho ni
harn ms que colaborar en ese sentido. Los actores que
emergieron con voces propias de forma reciente tambin
estn delineando nuevos modos de activismo.
SILVIO
Pienso con Julieta que lo queer y el arte estn, desde esta
perspectiva, elaborando una futurabilidad, una repobla-
cin del mundo, o una recomposicin del mundo. En tan-
to son prcticas de subjetivacin, prcticas que ejercen
una recomposicin de los cuerpos, una recomposicin
de las palabras y una recomposicin de los vnculos y de
los signos que producimos, el arte y lo queer comparten
un frente de resistencia comn.
OSAS
Algo me acaba de entrar como preocupacin; tiene que
ver incluso con lo que hablamos de los aspectos invisi-
bles y lo esotrico. Estoy recordando la utilizacin como
base conceptual de Mil mesetas (de Deleuze-Guattari)
para la estrategia militar norteamericana de invasin a
Medio Oriente. Los militares desplazaron nociones del
libro para entender que al invadir Irak no iban a entrar
a un terreno volumtrico sino a una meseta completa-
mente llana, entendiendo que lo que haba que atravesar
para el ataque por tierra eran los pliegues del terreno; o
sea, las paredes, haciendo boquetes de casa en casa y as
avanzando en lnea recta hacia sus objetivos.
EDITOR I A L
VOLV ER A L F U T U RO I I
riences is encapsulated and stored away as an extra chapter
in the history of painting (or whatever language). Its like
when an institute for gender is created at a university, what
is achieved in the end is also that we all wind up shut inside
and gender issues never enter into the overall curriculum. As
long as we have a research group, a seminar here and there
and all the rest we cease to be dangerous. They give us the
Institute to go to work there and there is no contact with the
History of Ancient Philosophy, Metaphysics, Political Phi-
losophy, etc., which all remain immune.
OSAS
In this sense, I was also thinking: what ever happened
to the ambition of the crazy non-conformist who used
to be disruptive and instable, but now only aspires to be
inscribed and identified in some theory, biennial or aca-
demic framework?
JULIETA
Right. Even within philosophical practices themselves,
for example, Id like to talk about drones, the Olympic
Games, about a lot of dominion over objects and dis-
course, and I want to do that with feminist, queer and
sexually dissident categories. I dont want to be in the
gender and sexualities section; I want these variables to
contaminate other sections.
OSAS
Ive just come from a biennial where the proposalwith
all its difficulties and contradictionswas to think about
whether art could function like a seismograph, adhering
to the hypothesis that one could anticipate a state, cur-
rent state of mind or social future by way of how works
are articulated. What the biennial was asking is, according
to my criteria, taboo and forbidden: a sense of utility or
futurology in art. Once again, we can shift this to what we
have been talking about? Might queer function as another
anticipatory seismograph?
JULIETA
Queer has something of futurology in it. Above all recently,
queer has traced broad lines that have anticipated what then
happened: the drag queen comes to mind. What most inter-
ests me about queer is that in my opinion it is delineating fu-
ture ways of life, and technical advances in terms of corporal
modifications have only collaborated in this sense, and will
continue to do so. The actors emerging with voices of their
own recently are also delineating new forms of activism.
SILVIO
Im with Julieta in thinking that from this perspective, both
art and the queer are elaborating future possibilities, a re-
population of the world or a re-composition of the world.
In so far as they are subjectivization practices, or practices
that exercise a re-composition of the body, a re-composi-
tion of words and a re-composition of the ties we generate
and the signs we produce, art and the queer share a com-
mon front of resistance.
OSAS
Something that has just occurred to me as a concern has
to do even with what we had discussed regarding invis-
ible aspects and the esoteric. Im recalling A Thousand
Plateaus (by Deleuze-Guattari), utilized as a conceptual
basis for North American military strategy to invade the
Mideast. The military shifted notions from the book in
order to reach an understanding that by invading Iraq they
would not be entering a volumetric terrain, but rather a
completely flat plateau, understanding that what had to
be crossed in the land attack were folds of terrain; in other

Entonces ah se me hace presente el miedo a no saber
cuidar el saber, a construir o ensear a decodificar maqui-
narias futurolgicas como pueden ser el arte o lo queer
y finalmente ser funcional a lo peor. Cmo podemos
proteger estos saberes? qu responsabilidad nos toca?
Se debe ser hermtico o generar ciertas llaves, o todo lo
contrario.
JULIETA
Est buensimo el ejemplo que tras de Mil mesetas porque
muestra que la recepcin es todo: una teora funciona en
la medida de cmo es leda.
OSAS
Lo que me pregunto es si no deberamos estar muy atentos
a pensar estrategias, casi alqumicas, en donde dejar ciertas
llaves cerradas para que eso no suceda.
JULIETA
Totalmente. S, estoy de acuerdo.
SILVIO
Como decamos antes: cuando se identifica, se fija y, al
mismo, se hace un extractivismo de nuestras potencias. Sin
embargo, lo que el cdigo neoliberal y su realismo capi-
talista no puede gestionar son nuestras alianzas afectivas,
nuestras amistades polticas, nuestras creaciones mons-
truosas. Entonces, creo que, en ese punto, los afectos, el
arte, las teoras poscoloniales y queer son estratgicas.
Ah, est la trama de la resistencia defensiva e inventiva
de nuestras comunidades sensibles.
JULIETA
Si hablamos de queer en nuestro pas es til notar que
nos llega como un cuerpo terico importado, desde ciertas
coordenadas. La colonialidad del saber permea con todos
los mecanismos que tiene el sistema de modas terico-
estticas global. Apropiarse del trmino y ponerlo a fun-
cionar es una tarea. En su historia y su contexto, queer
surgi de lo social como reapropiacin de la injuria. Queer
(rarito, chueco) tiene una potencia increble en ingls que
si vos lo traslads ac, sin traduccin ni mediacin, no slo
queda como aplanada su fuerza revulsiva sino que hasta es
un signo de snobismo. Por ello fueron y son tan centrales
los grupos que se dieron la poltica de localizar los saberes,
configurando ticas maricas, tortilleras, cuir-sudacas, en-
tre otras formulaciones. Habr que pensar cules nombres
son los que nos convienen hoy, si es que son nombres lo
que necesitamos como estrategia.
Buenos Aires 12 de septiembre, 2016.
[1] El activismo gordo se propone cuestionar los regmenes esttico-po-
lticos del neoliberalismo magro acerca de a la gordura. Se trata de
una actividad crtica en torno a los discursos hegemnicos sobre los
cuerpos gordos, ya sea que vengan de la medicina o del ms incues-
tionado sentido comn. En particular, intentan invertir el consenso
social en torno a la gordura mostrando que no necesariamente es un
signo negativo a erradicar, sino que puede ser terreno de orgullo,
placer y deseo, as como de disidencia frente al negocio de las dietas
y los cuerpos delgados. Algo para destacar del movimiento gordo
son sus numerosas alianzas con el feminismo y el movimiento de la
disidencia sexual. En nuestro pas, desde hace varios aos existe la
publicacin Gorda! Zine (www.gordazine.com.ar), y recientemente
fue editado un libro que compila textos de produccin nacional y
traducciones de bibliografa internacional crtica sobre el tema.
[2] Contrera, Laura - Cuello, Nicols (comps.), Cuerpos sin patrones,
Resistencias desde las geografas desmesuradas de la carne, Madre-
selva, Buenos Aires, 2016.
[3] Ver Deleuze, Gilles - Guattari, Flix Percepto, afecto, concep-
to, Qu es la filosofa?, Anagrama, Barcelona, Espaa, 1993.
(N. de la R.).
192
words, the walls, making holes and advancing house by
house in a straight line toward their targets.
So, then, the fear of not knowing how to care for knowl-
edge appears, how to construct or teach others how to
decipher futurologic machinery like art or the queer can
be a fear of it winding up as an instrument in the worst
hands. How can we protect this knowledge, how much
of that responsibility falls to us? It should be hermetic, or
certain keys should be generated, or precisely the opposite.
JULIETA
The example of the Thousand Plateaus that you mention
is excellent, because it shows that reception is everything:
a theory functions according to how it is read.
OSAS
What I ask myself is whether we shouldnt be very atten-
tive, thinking out strategies, almost like alchemy where
certain keys are hidden in order to prevent this from hap-
pening.
JULIETA
Exactly, yes, I completely agree.
SILVIO
As we were saying before; when something is identified, it is
fixed and there is an extractivist approach to our strengths.
Nevertheless, what neo-liberal codes and their capitalist re-
alism cannot manage are our emotional ties, our political
friendships, our monstrous creations. I believe, then, in this
sense, that emotions, art, post-colonial theory and queer are
all strategic. That is where the fabric of our sensitive commu-
nities defensive and inventive resistance can be found.
JULIETA
If we are talking about the queer in our country, its useful
to note that it reaches us as an imported body of theory,
from particular coordinates. The colonialism of knowledge
permeates by way of all the mechanisms the global system
of theoretical-aesthetic fads has at hand. Appropriating the
term and putting it to use is a task. In its history and context,
queer emerged from the social realm as a re-appropria-
tion of the insult. Queer (strange, irregular) has an amazing
power in English and if you bring it here, without transla-
tion or mediation, not only is its repulsive force flattened,
but it even becomes an indication of snobbishness. This is
why the groups focused on the politics of localizing knowl-
edge have been and still are so important, configuring gay,
lesbian and cuir-sudaca ethics, among other formulations.
Which names are in our best interests today will have to be
considered, if names are what we need as a strategy.
Buenos Aires, September 12th , 2016.
[1] Fat activism proposes questioning the aesthetic-political regimes
of lean neo-liberalism in terms of fatness. It is a critical activity
regarding hegemonic discourse regarding fat bodies, whether com-
ing from the medical field or the most surveyed common sense. In
particular, it attempts to invert social consensus in terms of fatness
by demonstrating that it is not necessarily a negative sign to be eradi-
cated, but can be a terrain of pride, desire and pleasure, in addition
to dissidence in the face of the business of diets and thin bodies.
A point to highlight in the fat movement is its numerous alliances
with feminism and dissident sexual movements. In our country, the
publication Gorda! Zine (www.gordazine.com.ar) has existed for
several years, and a book on the topic compiling texts produced in
Argentina and translations of an international bibliography was re-
cently published.
[2] Contrera, Laura - Cuello, Nicols (comps.), Cuerpos sin patrones,
Resistencias desde las geografas desmesuradas de la carne, Madre-
selva, Buenos Aires, 2016.
[3] See Deleuze, Gilles - Guattari, Flix (translation by Hugh Tom-
linson and Graham Burchell III), Percept, Affect, and Concept,
What Is Philosophy?, Columbia University Press, New York, 1994.
(Editors note).