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3902 Views 22 Replies Late st re ply: Se p 27, 2013 10:53 AM by Jare d C onway Actions
C heck the Knowlege Base
May 24, 2013 7:20 PM View as PDF

Turbine flow simulation View print preview

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Josue Cristancho Hello, More Like This

I would like to know how to do flow simulation on a rotating gas turbine with boundary conditions. I only know
how to simulate flow with the rotors not moving. I want to do the opposite. Also, I want to input boundary tank filling problem - transient
conditions such as mass flow rate at the inlet and environment pressure at the outlet. I have tried looking at analysis
tutorials but they are no help. I also tried looking through the forum and on the internet but all I find is stuff about
wind turbines. Re: Help with a race car C FD
analysis
Re: AIUTO ,FLOW SIMULATION
STUDENTESSA
Lik e (0) UNIVERSITARIA
Inaccuate lift and drag
coefficient results of nd2030
airfoil simulation
May 24, 2013 10:29 PM (in re sponse to Josue C ristancho) Re: Fluid Subdomains with
Re: Turbine flow simulation External Analysis

The tutorials have a pump example that should match what you are trying to do.

Bookmarked By (0)
Jared Conway Basic setup for this type of problem:
Internal analysis
View: Everyone
Add local rotation
Pressure opening on both ends to determine flow rate
No public bookmarks exist for this
If you want to try and find out what velocity it will rotate at, apply a mass flow for the inlet flow and then iterate content.
the flow until you have zero torque On the blades.

If you need more than this, post a pic of what you are working with and where you are stuck exactly.

Legend
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C orrect answer
Helpful answer
May 24, 2013 10:32 PM (in re sponse to Jare d C onway)
Re: Turbine flow simulation

I would also suggest checking out the swx kb. Lots of good articles on rotation.

Jared Conway

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May 26, 2013 10:53 PM (in re sponse to Jare d C onway)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

Thank you for your response!

Josue Cristancho
Ok, so I have attached pictures of what I am working with. All I want to do is input a mass flow rate at the
inlet and environment pressure at the exit. Also specify the rpm for the rotors. I added local rotation but I
could only select the outer shell as it would not let me select the rotors. Furthermore, whenever I tried to
put a boundary condition (mass flow rate) I get that the face is not laying between the solid and fluid
region. I then looked at a rotating impellor tutorial and it helped a bit. I set up global rotation and
attempted to make the outer walls as real walls and marked strator. It would not let me make the outer
walls as real walls because it was marked as a fluid in component control.

I checked the geometry and saw that when I disabled the outer shell, I get 0 m^3 for the fluid volume.
Does the fact that the central rod with the rotors is not connected in any way to the outer shell?
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May 27, 2013 11:22 AM (in re sponse to Josue C ristancho)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

sounds like you have a geometry problem on your hands.

suppress everything in your assembly except for the outside parts, see if you can get it to run
Jared Conway
if that works, at least you've narrowed down which component(s) are causing the issue.

add another, run...etc until you narrow down which ones are causing the issues.

if you take a look at this forum, there are a lot of discussions about the geometry test you shoul do:
1. no interferences between copmonents
2. no imported bodies with errors
3. no files that don't survive C TRL-Q
4. no invalid contacts

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Jul 14, 2013 11:57 AM (in re sponse to Josue C ristancho)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

Hello,
I read many articles on this forum but I could not find helpfull information. As my question are related to the
subject "turbine in flow simulation" I have not created a new subject. My questions come after many try and for
Frederic Maj remind each calculation takes more than 10 hours.

I am a teacher in mechanics. I tried to simulate the behavior of the turbine of Kurt Schreckling. (only the turbine
of the gas engine for model aircraft).
I first tried to calculate the physical parameters of the turbine manually :
1. Hypotheses : C out = 160 m/s 75 000 tr/min To1= 873K s = 0.85 for distributor and 0.85 for
wheel degree of reaction epsylon=0.5
qm =0.115 kg/s Rmoy = 26.5 mm U=208 m/s alpha2 = 53 beta2 = 0 alpha3 = 0 beta3=53
1 -> inlet 2-> between distributor and wheel 3-> outlet
C alculations gave : Po1 = 1,5 bar Po2 = Po3 = 1.21 bar
To1=873 K To2=873 K To3 = 835 K
T1=862 K T2 = 843.5K T3 = 824,3 K
T2 = 842.5 K
P1 = 1.43 bar P2 = 1.3 bar P3 = 1.149 bar
Rh1 = 0.578 kg/m3 rh2 = 0,537 kg/m3 rh3 = 0,486 kg/m3

V1=156,7 m/s V2 = 260 m/s V3 = 156,7 m/s

W2 = 156,7 m/s W3 = 260 m/s
S1 = 1.27e-3m2 S2 = 1.36e-3m2 S3 = 1.51e-3m2

Secondly I did a model with flow simulation : The model take the profile of blades given by Schreckling on the
average diameter. I simplify the model by drawing the same profile for all the radius.

for this I selected : internal analysis, unsteady flow 0.01 s by step 0.0001 s, global rotation frame = 7850 rad/s,
fluid = air, laminare and turbulent, numb. 4 for mesh
Boundary conditions : inlet Po1= 150 000 Pa, T1=875 K
On outlet mass flow = 0.115 kg/s
Stator on fix part of the turbine real wall

I am giving now you the results which are disappointing for me :

The results did not completely converge ( even for the mass flow it's OK)

In my opinion I should see same total temperature from inlet to the wheel (875K)
Sharp decrease of the total temperature in the wheel
The same total temperature from the wheel to the oulet ( around 820 K)
This is not the case
The fluid temperature did not decrease enough. One dimensional model give T1 =875 K to T3 = 820 K
Model flow give T1=875 K to only 853 K

* In the end the torque on the shaft is only 0.01 N.m which give a output of 78 W.
On the hand model I should have an output of 5000 W which give a torque of 0.6 N.m

So my questions are :
Are my boundary conditions OK?
As I have an idea of the results is it possible to use them to increase the speed of convergence?(would help
me to multiply try)
How is it possible to evaluate the number of cells needed?

I was in touch with a man specialized in turbomachinery. But he did not know flow works. So could not help me on
improving the flow works model. He advise me for rough estimation to simplify the model by deleting turbulence
(possible in general settings) and viscosity.
Is it possible to delete viscosity and how?
So I followed these advises (I could not delete viscosity) but the results where even more disappointing. The
calculation could not converge and the speed of gases was suppose to reach 1e11m/s.
How could I improve the models of the turbine (the first one and the simplified one) ?

Thanks in advance.
Best Regards
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Jul 14, 2013 3:37 PM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

lots going on here

first, i'd check out the technical reference and solving engineering problems on rotating regions. i think your
Jared Conway model is on the verge of being outside the scope of the rotating region method for flow simulation. you should
be able to connect with a reseller to get confirmation from the developers.

for problem setup, the first thing i'd suggest is extending the tunnel that your turbine sits in, those BC s are too
close to your area of interest. also, mass flow out is a no no. (see swx kb, help and other references) is there
a way you can set it up differently?

also, is there a reason that you're working with a time dependent solution? in the technical refernecem you'll
also find that rotation in transient is solved in a psuedo steady state manner anyways. i don't see time
dependent componnets in your hand calcs. but those also could use a reference like wherey ou're marking
p0...etc. knowing what your assumptions are would also be helpful to know whether you're comparing apples
to apples.

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Jul 15, 2013 12:46 AM (in re sponse to Jare d C onway)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

Hello Jared,
You will find below my answers and questions.
Frederic Maj first, i'd check out the technical reference and solving engineering problems on rotating regions. i think your
model is on the verge of being outside the scope of the rotating region method for flow simulation. you
should be able to connect with a reseller to get confirmation from the developers. I will try to get this
confirmation from SW.

for problem setup, the first thing i'd suggest is extending the tunnel that your turbine sits in, those BC s are
too close to your area of interest.
I agree. As I mentionned a calculation takes more than 10hours. So I tried to reduce the
number of cells to the minium.
I will change.
also, mass flow out is a no no. (see swx kb, help and other references) is there a way you can set it up
differently?
Sorry I dont understand no no??
I did research on internet and in the forum. How can we have an access to the swx kb,
technical reference ?

also, is there a reason that you're working with a time dependent solution?
I use transcient option because I use flow tutorial as a reference. And for the calculation of a
centrifugal compressor, they use transcient option. So I will change to steady option.

in the technical refernecem you'll also find that rotation in transient is solved in a psuedo steady state
manner anyways. i don't see time dependent componnets in your hand calcs. but those also could use a
reference like wherey ou're marking p0...etc. knowing what your assumptions are would also be helpful to
know whether you're comparing apples to apples.
Po is stagnation pressure. I think in english speaking countries they noted it Pi

And I will remind questions:

Is it possible to decrease the time of calculation as I have an idea of the results? Ex the
calculation starts with outlet temp. of 273 K. It seems to me, if the calculation starts with an outlet temp. of
700K, the calculation could take maybe less time.

According to you, is it possible to remove the viscosity of a fluid?(In order to simplify the
model).

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 Jul 15, 2013 8:51 AM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)
Re: Turbine flow simulation

"no no" > not recommended practice.

technical reference > it is in the flow simulation installation directory. lang > english > docs.
Jared Conway
swx kb > customerportal.solidworks.com, create an account, register your serial number

Po > understood that Po is stagnation pressure. same designation here in usa/canada. The point i'm
trying to make is i'm not sure where your equations are coming from, or how they are laid out or what
their assumptions are. part of the issue with comparing simulation to hand calculations is confirming that
they are equivalent. this can only be done by knowing the assumptions for both..etc.

decrease the calculation time > steady state will help. but rotating regions does take time and most
likely if this is a reasonable problem for flow, you're going to need more cells than you think. regarding
your comment about temperature, this is related to steady state. if you choose initial conditions close to
the final, it will converge quicker. with transient, you have to choose the appropriate initial conditions for
the transient solution.

remove the viscosity > i don't know what you mean here.

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Jul 17, 2013 1:27 AM (in re sponse to Jare d C onway)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

technical reference >

I did not know this document interesting document but also complex. Because of the use of a lot of
specific vocabulary.
Frederic Maj
swx kb >
Unfortunately, with my serial number I do not have access to the knowledge base. Its a shame.

Po >

I try to give you the expected answer below.

I started with the data from the book.
After a first calculation the book fixed the following :
Mass flow qm =0.115 kg/s and output speed C out = 160 m/s needed for thrust.
75 000 tr/min and (average radius) Rmoy = 26.5 mm => U=208 m/s
In the book they choose a reaction turbine with degree of reaction epsylon=0.5 Tmax = 875 K
By experience they fixed alpha2 = 53 or 37 dependent on the convention (American or European)
For the calculations I use equation of ideal gas (Pv=rT, T^. P^1-=cste)
With = 1.33 and Cp = 1147 J/(kg.K)
I suppose isentropic expansion with an isentropic efficiency of s = 0.85 for distributor and 0.85 for
wheel
Equation linking P to Po And Euler Equation : wi = U2V2u-U3V3u
The idea was I do first calculation manually . Then I create a model of the turbine, introduce
conditions found at the exit of the combustion chamber. The turbine turn at 75000 tr/min and check
the power output, torque on the shaft. In the end compare hand calculation of temp, pressure,
velocity of gas with the flow sim calculation. In order to check If I am able to build such a model.

remove the viscosity >

If I am not wrong, the flow simulation solve the navier stockes equations. The model of the fluid is a
newtonian fluid where is a scalar constant of proportionality, the shear viscosity of the fluid(from
wikipedia).
In the hand calculations I dont use viscosity except maybe when I use isentropic efficiency s.
So if it would be possible to use a fluid without viscosity, it would maybe simplify the equations and
calculations and help to get estimation close to reality even if its not exact(avoid meaningless results
like P or speed 10^11). This was a suggestion.

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Jul 17, 2013 2:03 AM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

In addition, I made new experiences.

I tried to simplify the model by calculating the distributor and the wheel separately.
Frederic Maj For distributor I found the results fit quite well the manually calculation.
BC : Po1=150000 Pa T1=862 K mesh level : 6
On exit qm=0.115 kg/s
The speed on the exit is a bit slower 245 m/s against 260 m/s. but for me such a results are OK.
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Jul 17, 2013 2:20 AM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

For the wheel the results are worse.

BC : on inlet qm = 0.115 kg/s with a whirl w = 7850 rad/s these are the theoretical values
T3= 843,5 K P3 = 130000 Pa
Frederic Maj
On exit environnement pressure mesh level : 6

Results strange because close to the exit the fluid rotate fast suddently without reason and
accelerate to 343 m/s . The flow should be near axial.
The diagram of total temperature seems not bad.
But the value of torque is close to 0.
In yellow values not in accordance with theory.
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Jul 17, 2013 2:22 AM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

Frederic Maj

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Jul 17, 2013 1:51 PM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

hi frederic, i would suggest breaking this down into smaller elements and getting them to
correlate before attempting your full assembly. i highly suspect that you will need a MUC H
higher cell count to get accurate results (see my comments on a recent airfoil post). and as
Jared Conway i mentioned previous, i think you're really on the edge of what flow simulation can do.
without access to solidworks technical support and the KB to learn what you need for setting
up rotating problems including the recommended meshing processes this is going to be a
pretty difficult problem to work through as your first flow simulation problem. the other thing
that i would recommend is finding an example with known calculations and physical results
to compare to your flow simulation problem. part of the issue could be that your calculations
are too simple for flow and that is where the discrepency lies. IE, flow is right, your calcs
are wrong. there are a lot of things to consider here. in the long run, I think if you could
better understand how the individual blades work, and then the stacks of blades and you
can get reasonable answers, you will probably know a lot about your structure.

another thing i just thought about is that there could be some issues here on reporting.
agian there are a couple of great articles on this in the KB but it is important that all
surfaces are "closed" when reporting torque or forces. otherwise your results will be
 incorrect.

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Jul 18, 2013 4:06 AM (in re sponse to Jare d C onway)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

hi frederic, i would suggest breaking this down into smaller elements and getting them to
correlate before attempting your full assembly. i highly suspect that you will need a
MUC H higher cell count to get accurate results (see my comments on a recent airfoil
Frederic Maj post).
I tried to do so. For example, I try to simulate all the turbine (distrib+ wheel)
with mesh level 6. I saw close to 900 000 cells+ partial cells. And after few
iterations, the calculation diverge strongly 10^11! When I see this I stop the
calculation since it can run many days But this could mean the model is not
OK (assembly).

and as i mentioned previously, i think you're really on the edge of what flow simulation
can do. without access to solidworks technical support and the KB to learn what you need
for setting up rotating problems including the recommended meshing processes this is
going to be a pretty difficult problem to work through as your first flow simulation
problem.
I know thats the reason why I try to get a support on the forum. With the
resaler of SW, its difficult to have contact by phone. You have to send mail to
an address such education@.... And you only get short answers with few words
which are not helpfull. I would be happy if they could confirm me if the
problem can be solved or not.

The best would be to be in touch with someone who have done such
calculation with flow simulation. After discussions, In field of turbomachinery,
flow simulation is not known.

the other thing that i would recommend is finding an example with known calculations
and physical results to compare to your flow simulation problem. part of the issue could
be that your calculations are too simple for flow and that is where the discrepency lies.
IE, flow is right, your calcs are wrong. there are a lot of things to consider here. in the
long run, I think if you could better understand how the individual blades work, and then
the stacks of blades and you can get reasonable answers, you will probably know a lot
about your structure.
That was the reason of the choice of this turbine. I bought the book with
technical features, drawings. It's not easy to find an example of a turbine with
so much information on a turbine which I am sure it runs.
I would like to find info on a small turbine running with water (incompressible
fluid)=>more simple model. I will look for.

another thing I just thought about is that there could be some issues here on reporting.
agian there are a couple of great articles on this in the KB but it is important that all
surfaces are "closed" when reporting torque or forces. otherwise your results will be
incorrect.
For info I select surface goal, click the wheel,filter, select (remove outer and
keep outer surfaces and surfaces in contact with fluid).
I will check again the geometry or, maybe better, rebuild the model.

What is more disappointing for me is that with the same boundary conditions,
I can get 2 different results. For example, at the beginning I got torque with
value more than 1Nm.
And after so many trials, I cannot see coherence in the behavior of the
software. Maybe a clue showing a problem with the geometry.

Something is not clear in my mind regarding BC

with Total pressure : on a lid (outlet for ex) I fix Po (stagnation pressure) and
Temperature.
with Static pressure : on a lid (outlet for ex) I fix P (pressure) and
Temperature.
with Environment Pressure : on a lid (inlet) I fix Po(stagnation pressure) and
Temperature.
On a lid (outlet) I fix P (pressure) and
Temperature.
Am I right? What is the interest of environment pressure?
The option pressure potential is not clear. What does it mean?

You previously mentionned that the mass flow as boudary condition is not
recommended .
Based on your experience, and what you understand from the problem.
what kind of boundary conditions could you suggest me?

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Jul 18, 2013 8:16 AM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

Hi Frederic, I'm suggesting breaking Down this problem even further. For example
just one fin, no rotation. I think part of the issue is that you're trying to get used to
flow simulation on a diffcult problem with a lot of variables. So when it doesn't work,
Jared Conway you're not sure if it is your setup, expectations or the software. The software has
been validated for many types of problems. By breaking down the problem, you can
test the individual elements to make sure they work until you get to the full model.
For example I see the fin on their own, rotating cylinder and just the chamber inlet
and outlet flow as easily calculatable.

To get a better idea if this will work in flow, someone is going to need your reference
material and the model. Having done this for almost 9 years now, I would need to run
a bunch of tests and probably consult the developers to confirm its validity with flow.
But honestly I can't comment on bcs because I haven't seen your model other than
pictures and don't have enoug information a out the application. With an edu license
you are kind of stuck. Your instructor could connect with a reseller on your behalf but
all the prerequisite work ived described would be necessary. This also includes
confirming in the references suggested that your problem meets the needs for
rotation.

At hawk ridge, if you wanted to send it to us, we could take a look, but it will take
some time with our current customer work load.

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 Jul 23, 2013 12:25 AM (in re sponse to Jare d C onway)
Re: Turbine flow simulation

Hello Jared,

Thanks for the proposition. For the moment I will continue to work on the model. I
Frederic Maj think I am on the good way.
After studies on some parts of the turbine, I worked on the study of the all turbine. I
changed the geometry a little and the BC s. Put mass flow on inlet and total pressure
on the outlet.
It was necessary for me to learn and work on the optimization of the meshing.
All the calculations converge. The results are not far from hand calculation.
Not easy to compare since its difficult for me to set precisely the temp and the
pressure on the inlet.
For 824K on inlet, I get 0.482 Nm .
The temp should be 862.5K which would give a torque of around 0.6Nm (ideal model).
For me what is strange is that when I set environnement pressure on the outlet
(instaed of total pressure) , the calculation quickly sharply diverge.
Are you surprised by such behavior ? C ould you please explain me what difference
between setting up of env. pressure and total pressure? (if it's easy).
In case I will still have problems, I will maybe finally send it to you. But I am still
working on it.

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Jul 23, 2013 9:22 AM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

Environmental pressure should be defined in the help. When it is an inlet it is total

pressure, when it is an outlet it is static pressure. There are a couple of good articles
on it in the kb. Basically it helps with problems that recirculate at the bc.
Jared Conway
As for not converging properly, I don't think it is expected or unexpected unless
you've chosen a bc that isn't correct. Either type or value.

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 Se p 27, 2013 5:51 AM (in re sponse to Fre de ric Maj)
Re: Turbine flow simulation

Hello Frederic,
Im working on wind turbine blade flow simulation, I had read all your
Yasir Shkara
conversation with Jared, actually I have the same your problem of torque. Hand
calculation shows much higher torque than simulation even with optimized mesh.
Please note my input is only air velocity towered the blade and the blade is
stationary, i.e not rotating with ambient pressure and temperature.
My question is what did you do to improve your results to get higher torque?
And did you run the simulation for stationary turbine to get 0.482 Nm?

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Se p 27, 2013 8:53 AM (in re sponse to Yasir Shk ara)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

sounds like your problem is significantly different, i'd recommend making your own
thread for your problem.
Jared Conway i would suggest adding some info about what the application is, what your hand calcs
were, what you setup in sim and what your boundary conditions are and what your
mesh actually looks like.

the other thing to note is you should look at the continuity of your problem. torque
might be wrong but it could be the way you're reading it in the software. do the rest of
the values and flow field look correct?

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Se p 27, 2013 10:40 AM (in re sponse to Jare d C onway)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

Hi Jared,
I have a wind turbine blade as shown in the image. Hand calculations means the
Yasir Shkara
wind turbine specifications were all information of dimensions, torque and power
are available from the manufactures. After drawing the blade the boundary
condition were air velocity in y-direction, turbulent intensity and turbulent length.
This flowing air will generate torque around y-axis trying to rotate the blade the
same like Frederic turbine. Mesh used is around half million of partial cells and
2.3 million of fluid cells in 3-dimention decreases in size near the geometry as
shown in the second image. The simulation is of 500 iteration steady state and
convergent.
Ideal torque is around 10000 Nm for one blade
Simulation torque results around 90 Nm for one blade
Please note I didnt specify torque axis therefore y-component of torque in global
goal should present wind mill torque for one blade.
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Se p 27, 2013 10:53 AM (in re sponse to Yasir Shk ara)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

take a look at this thread: https://forum.solidworks.com/thread/70713?tstart=0

my first thought is your comp domain is wayy too small.

Jared Conway
i'd recommend starting with something like a simple plate to get your confidence in
the software and the way that you're outputting results. then you can move to your
full model.

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Jul 14, 2013 12:01 PM (in re sponse to Josue C ristancho)

Re: Turbine flow simulation

Frederic Maj

below some other results s.

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