Posted by Anonymous on 13 July, 2006 - 1:49 pm

machine droop setting is 4%. let's say machine is at 20 MW & rated load is 40 MW.
Hence it is at 102% TNR. (TNR-TNH=2%) If TNH reduces by 1% machine's load will
increase by 25% of rated load (25% of 40MW) 10MW. machine will increase to 30 MW
from 20MW.

1) Will machine stay there or it will again come down to 20MW to maintain original
TNR-TNH=2% at reduced TNH of 1%?

2) If three machines of 40MW are operating at different droop settings say 4, 5 & 6%,
how thaey will share increased load of 10 MW? Is there any equation or graph for this
situation?
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 14 July, 2006 - 11:23 am

From the "Serious Department", eh? As in, can "Anonymous" be seriously asking this
question after all the droop discussions on this forum?

1) Since Droop Speed Control is straight proportional control, there is nothing to cause
the GRID frequency to increase back to 100%; the grid frequency will probably increase
by some amount, but that amount is dependant upon many factors: the Droop settings of
the other generator prime movers, the number of other generators connected to the grid,
etc., etc. There are too many parameters to say for sure, but unless this unit is capable of
raising the entire grid frequency back to rated (100%), the answer would be no; the
speed/frequency would not increase back to 100%.

Now, consider what would happen if the speed/frequency did return to 100%? Then the
unit would "cycle" between 99% and 100% like a yo-yo, and the grid would be unstable.

Droop Speed Control is straight proportional control. No reset.

2) If you're asking what would happen to the power output of three machines, each with
the Droop settings you specified, when the grid frequency dropped by 1%? The unit with
4% Droop would pick up 25% of rated output; the unit with 5% would pick up 20% of
rated output; and the unit with 6% would pick up 16.67% of rated output.

If you're asking if three machines with the Droop settings you specified were all
operating at 50% of rated output, and the load on the grid increased by 10 MW what
would happen? If there's no Isochronous unit on the grid, and no other units on the grid,
and no PMS System (Power Management System) outputting signals to raise/lower the
Droop Speed Setpoints of the units based on changes in frequency--well, the grid
frequency would decrease, and the three units would each pick up a proportionate share
of the load based on the amount of the drop in speed/frequency (see above).

The amount of load on a grid is NOT a function of the rating of the prime movers &
generators connected to the grid, it's a function of the motors, lights, transformers, door
bells, blenders, and garage door openers connected to the grid and in operation at that
specific instant in time. Some "entity" has to be in control of/monitoring grid frequency
and adjusting the output of the units and adding additional generation or removing excess
generation as required to maintain frequency (which seems to be a problem in some parts
of the world served by contributors to this forum...).

Otherwise, your question 2 is not understood.

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by Nitol on 17 July, 2006 - 12:13 pm

What is constant settable droop?

Is there any specific guideline about, when to use constant settable drrop v/s fixed droop?

Can you send me the response curve of FSR in case of sudden vriation in grid frequency
with constant settable droop?

Which is a preferred option of droop control (fixed or constant settable) for stnadrad
combustion Frame-9 gas turbine connected to grid?
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 18 July, 2006 - 8:44 am

"Constant Settable Droop" is a means of "connecting" Droop speed control and power
output (recall the flyball governor example where it was not possible to use load
feedback?). Constant Settable Droop (another extremely poor choice of a name/term for a
control scheme) came into wide usage on GE-design heavy-duty gas turbine applications
with the advent of DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustion systems. During initial
development, it was common for load swings (dips and spikes) to occur during
combustion mode transfers. By "connecting" turbine speed reference to load (which is
what happens with Constant Settable Droop), any variance in speed OR load will result in
a response by the SpeedTronic to try to maintain speed AND load.

Rather than just supply Constant Settable Droop on DLN-combustor equipped units and
regular Droop Controll on non-DLN units, the decision was made to just use Constant
Settable Droop Control on almost every new units regardless of combustor type
beginning in the mid-1990s.

There really would be difference in response to grid frequency variations between a unit
with Constant Settable Droop and one without it.

The decision to use or not use Constant Settable Droop is really a discretionary one (the
discretion of the requisition engineer during the design phase of the unit). Using Constant
Settable Droop or not using it should have no appreciable affect on the response of a unit
connected to a stable or an "unstable" grid. There really aren't any compelling arguments
for using it or not using it--except for DLN-combustor equipped units which are more
susceptible to load swings during combustion mode transfers (though a lot of control
system design and modification has been done to lessen and even eliminate load swings
during combustion mode transfers).

One has to remember that when discussing Droop Speed Control (Constant Settable or
"regular"), that the unit can only respond to grid frequency variations IF IT IS
OPERATING AT PART LOAD _AND_ THE EXCURSION DOES NOT CAUSE THE
UNIT TO REACH EXHAUST TEMPERATURE CONTROL. If a gas turbine is running
on exhaust temperature control and the grid frequency drops, well ... the power output of
the gas turbine goes DOWN (because the compressor slows and air flow through the unit
decreases and CPD drops--and fuel flow must be reduced to keep from exceeding the
exhaust temp limit). If the unit is operating at part load and the grid frequency excursion
would cause the unit to exceed the exhaust temp limit, the power output is limited.

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 18 July, 2006 - 4:24 pm

CORRECTION: The sentence in the third paragraph should have read:

"There really would be _little_ difference in response to grid frequency variations

between a unit with Constant Settable Droop and one without it."

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by mayank on 22 July, 2006 - 12:17 pm

Dear markvguy,

Can I have your e mail id??

Mine is mdoshi@essar.com.
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 25 July, 2006 - 2:18 pm

The purpose of solving problems and answering questions here at control.com is to help
as many people as possible. If the originators of posts provide feedback as to whether or
not the reply(s) are(were) helpful, then everyone (posters and respondents) benefit the
most by seeing what works and what doesn't.

I provide an email address primarily for data which can't be easily transferred via
control.com, such as configuration files and data files.

If you have a question or a problem, post it here, There are many people who may have
experienced the same problem as you--or who would be interested in the response to your
post.
And don't forget--feedback is what really makes this forum work! If you've been helped
or if the response was a complete miss--we want to know.

markvguy

P.S. I wholeheartedly advise AGAINST posting your email address without "coding" it
somehow so that email "spiders" can't easily deciper it. This author receives almost 100
spam email messages (most porn-related from the Northern Asian continent) JUST
FROM POSTING THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON THIS SITE! On this or any site when
you post your email address, try mdoshi_at_essar dotcom or something similar.
Reply to this post...

Posted by Anonymous on 31 July, 2006 - 8:10 pm

If there are four machines connected in droop mode only and not connected to the grid
will the speed of all the machines drop in the following case??

Case: Machines running at 50Hz, 10MW load on each of them and 5100 RPM. If the load
increases suddenly to 20MW, it will be shared equally amongst them, i.e., 2.5MW each.
considering 4% droop. After the sudden application of load, will the speed of each
machine reduce by some amount?
Will the speed of each machine increase back to the same value if the additional load was
suddenly taken away?
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 2 August, 2006 - 11:25 am

If there are four machines operating in Droop speed control mode--WITHOUT any
external load reference (such as AGC (Automatic Governor Control) or PMS (Power
Management System) supplying a signal to bias the Droop Speed Control Reference,
AND the units are NOT operating in Preselected Load Control Mode, in other words
straight proportional Droop Speed Control mode (known as "Part Load")--and all
machines have 4% droop, and no machine is operating close to or on Exhaust
Temperature Control (Base Load), then IDEALLY the load increase will be shared
equally between the four machines.

Since all the machines are connected together electrically on the same "grid/bus", yes, the
speed of all the machines will drop equally since no machine can spin faster than any
other.

If the load is removed, all machines IDEALLY will return to the same speed/load as
before.

The speed of regulators and response of the fuel valves and the speed sensing circuitry,
etc., all contribute to small discrepancies in the ability of the control systems to sense
changes in operating conditions and respond to them. So, there will most likely be some
slight differences in response rate, but the units should all ultimately respond similarly
since they all have the same Droop setting (per your case).

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by Anonymous on 4 August, 2006 - 8:33 am

In this situation, if three machines trip, will the only running machine take the combined
load of the other three machines?

Will the speed of the only-runnning-machine continuously drop in this case?

What will happen if the combined load of the three tripped machines is more than the
rated capacity of the only-running-machine? Will it trip too, because of underfreq(or
underspeed)?

Another question not related to the above questions:

If an Exhaust temp high alarm comes, will the machine begin to throw load?
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 5 August, 2006 - 11:30 am

Generally there are relays to trip generators if the frequency gets "too low." (How low is
"too low?" Only your utility or electrical system designer knows for sure--actually, it
would be the underfrequency relay setpoint since that would be the value determined by
someone.) That's one of the things which are being neglected in these discussions: other
generator- and turbine protective devices/relays/schemes which may come into play in a
real power plant setting. This is all basically theoretical discussions, assuming no external
protective relays/schemes.

So, attempting to describe how machines would respond in a "real-world" setting with
typical protective relays/schemes is very difficult.

In this scenario where all four units operating in Droop speed control had 10 MW of load
each (40 MW total grid load), and the grid (total) load suddenly increased by 10 MW to
50 MW, as long as the rated output of each unit at least approximately 12.5 MW they
would all share the load equally as the frequency dropped (assuming the underfrequency
relay(s) didn't actuate). (On GE-packaged heavy-duty gas turbine-generator units
underfrequency relays usually actuate 86G lock-out relays....)

Further, if three of the units then tripped and if the rated power output of the remaining
unit was at least 50 MW then it would pick up the load as the grid frequency continued to
drop--again, assuming the underfrequency relay(s) did not actuate.

Remember: Droop speed control is based on the difference between the actual speed
(frequency) and the speed reference. If a unit is programmed with 4% droop, when the
difference between the actual speed and the speed reference reaches 4% then the unit will
be approximately at its rated power output.
MOST GE-design heavy-duty gas turbines do not shed load when an exhaust
overtemperature ALARM is annunciated--but that's a function of how the unit's control
system is "programmed" based on how the owner/operator or utility wanted it
programmed, or how the packager thought it should be programmed.

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by Anonymous on 6 August, 2006 - 10:11 am

Thanks for the answer. One last question, if you dont mind. Since you mentioned the
speed reference I would like to know a bit more about it through my question.

As I understand, the difference between the speed reference and instantaneous speed is
equal (or proportional) to the load demand. In my question above, the speed reduces for a
2.5MW equal load on each generator. In this case will the speed reference come in picture
(i.e., increase with 2.5MW additional load demand) since the speed is already reduced
proportionately, thereby widening the difference between the TNR and the TNH. So
whatever is the desired difference between TNR and TNH, it's achieved by a reducing
TNH? So will the TNR at all need to increase to meet the load demand?

thank you
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 9 August, 2006 - 11:09 am

One last answer, if you don't mind.

When an operator wishes to increase the power output of a prime mover driving a
generator being operated in Droop speed control he/she does so by increasing the prime
mover's speed reference. If the prime mover is a GE-design heavy-duyt gas turbine with a
SpeedTronic turbine control panel the name of the turbine's speed reference signal is
TNR.

The assumption when operating a unit in Droop speed control in parallel with other
generators on an electrical grid is that the grid frequency is relatively stable (actually, that
it is stable) and is being controlled by some other machine (which is operating in
Isochronous speed control mode, or, in the case of an infinite grid that some entity or
organization is controlling the frequency by controlling the loads of multiple machines
operating in Droop speed control mode in response to changes in grid frequency). The
actual speed of the prime mover will not vary when the grid frequency is stable, so
increasing the prime mover's speed reference will increase the error between the
reference and the actual speed and this increased error will result in more energy being
admitted to the prime mover.

When the unit is being operated in Droop speed control (i.e., it is not being operated at
rated power output), and the load is steady that is because the speed reference is steady
(the assumption being that the grid frequency is stable). If the grid frequency suddenly
changes because of an increase in load--per your scenario where all the unit were
operating in Droop speed control with the same droop setting--then the grid frequency
would drop, which would increase the error between the speed reference and the actual
speed thereby increasing the energy admitted to the prime mover.

"Steady-state" operation in Droop speed control mode (not including any External Load
Control methods such as AGC (Automatic Governor Control) or a "local" load control
such as Pre-selected Load Control which is an option usually provided with GE-design
heavy-duty gas turbines which automatically raises/lowers the speed reference to
maintain a LOAD setpoint) means that the droop speed reference is stable.

"Desired difference" between TNR and TNH? 99.99% of GE-design heavy-duty gas
turbine operators, maintenance technicians, plant engineers, and plant managers don't
have any idea that when they click on the RAISE- or LOWER SPD/LOAD targets or
twist the SPEED/LOAD handle in the RAISE or LOWER direcion that they are changing
the turbine speed reference which is increasing the prime mover's power output--they are
only watching the megawatt meter's needle rotate in the clockwise or anti-clockwise
direction. This author has never seen or heard anyone refer to increasing or decreasing
load by increasing or decreasing the turbine speed reference. It's just one of those things
which a person "does": click on RAISE SPD/LOAD to increase power output. They don't
know "how" or "why"--that's just what they were taught to do to increase load. The
"mechanics" of what's happening are just a mystery.

Go ahead--ask any operator, "What will be the difference between TNR and TNH when
the unit is at 40% of rated power output?" Or, tell the operator, "Increase the TNR to
102.5%." The operator is going to look at you as if you were speaking Klingon (a
reference to a language spoken by inhabitants of a distant planet on the Star Trek
television show/movie series).

Droop training is now officially over.

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by Anonymous on 24 August, 2006 - 1:52 pm

I am a late-comer so did not know that this topic has been discussed ad nauseam earlier.
can you suggest a good book for parallel operations of machines.
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 24 August, 2006 - 10:07 pm

One really good resource this author has found on power plant operation and
fundamentals is http://www.canteach.candu.org. Search for parallel, droop, synchronizing
on the site--as well as many other topics. There is a wealth of free information there,
some very basic, some at an intermediate level--all of it very useful and informative. This
is a great resource for all kinds of topics!
There are many texts; Charles I. Hubert's books (see http://www.Amazon.com or
http://www.alibris.com) are very good. This author has also found "reprints" of the U.S.
Navy Bureau of Personnel 'Basic Electricity' texts available for less than USD$20.00--
which is a BARGAIN!--which are also very good for fundamental descriptions of
principles. ('Basic Electricity,' Publisher: Dover Publications, ISBN: 0486209733).

http://www.alibris.com is a very good source for out-of-print books and used copies of
expensive texts (usually at very reasonable prices!), as well as new books and texts--
highly recommended!

Another book, 'Power Generation Handbook,' by Kiameh (author's surname) is also very
good--with lots of information on heavy-duty combustion turbine principles, also.

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by ankarao on 18 July, 2006 - 4:51 pm

Let me explain how the machine responds to grid fluctuations with calculation part.

FSRN=(TNRL-TNH)*FSKNG+FSRN(existing)
where
TNRL=TNR-DWDROOP
DWDROOP=DWATT*DWKDG
FSRN is speed control FSR
TNRL is load turbine speed reference
TNH is turbine shaft speed
FSKNG is FSR speed ref prop gain (constant)
DWKDG is speed control droop reference
DWDROOP is turbine load reference
DWKDG is calculated constant. For frame nine machine of 125 MW capacity and 4%
droop setting DWKDG=4/125=0.032 %/ MW. It can be calculated for 5% droop and 6%
droop.

Let us take an example:

Machine is operating at 62.5 MW load at 50 HZ and TNR is 102%
Suppose grid frequency dips to 49 HZ
TNRL=(102-62.5*.032)=100
TNH=98%
FSKNG=15 (constant)
FSRN=(100-98)*15+35(existing FSR)

So new FSR will be 65%, in this process the machine may reach base load. Once the
machine reach base load FSRT takeover the control from FSRN. When the grid
frequency sharply increases the machine gets unloaded as per above the calculation.
sometimes manual intervention is required to stop unloading beyond the acceptable
limits.

In either case machine come back to original set point provided that manual intervention
is not taken place.

ankarao
Reply to this post...

Posted by RAM on 3 August, 2006 - 8:16 am

Hi Ankarao,

The equation you have given I have some question about that:

I think it is like
FSRN=(TNR-TNH)*FSKNG+FSR(AT FSNL)

Is this the equation or am I missing something? If I miss something then tell me.
Meantime I will search the CSP to find out that.

Thanks
Regards
RAM
Reply to this post...

Posted by Bob on 30 September, 2006 - 5:36 pm

Still is not clear to me which formula is correct:

FSRN=(TNRL-TNH)*FSKNG+FSRN(existing) or FSRN=(TNR-
TNH)*FSKNG+FSR(AT FSNL)?

Thanks
Bob
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 1 October, 2006 - 2:01 pm

TNRL (Turbine Speed Reference-Load-biased) is generally the name of the load-biased
droop speed control reference when a GE-design heavy-duty gas turbine is controlled
using a Speedtronic turbine control system which is configured for Constant Settable
Droop speed control.

To be certain which formula is used on a particular unit, one needs to consult the
SpeedTronic Elementary, or the CSP (Control Sequence Program), or the Toolbox
sequencing.

markvguy
Reply to this post...
Posted by Anonymous on 1 October, 2006 - 6:10 pm
Thank you, but i have a little question i think u can help me.

Suppose the correct formula is :

FSRN=(TNRL-TNH)*FSKNG+FSRN(existing)

and suppose we are connect to the public utility, if the frequency goes up (means the
public utlity is loosing some loads) our generator will start to be downloaded because of
the excess power from the public utlity.

Now just taking the above example with the following data:

"Machine is operating at 62.5 MW load at 50 HZ and TNR is 102%"

i expect that TNLR will change at same time when the excess power from the public
utlity will be available. Basically it will be more then 100% because i expect DWDROOP
feedback less the 100% ( let's say 1.9% and therefore TNLR should be 100.1%).

However at the same time also TNH will increase ( let's say to 100.1%) so it looks to me
that FSRN will never be operated ( to close the governor valve) because TLRN and TNH
will be equal at same time.
As i said this is because i expect our generator to be downloaded as soon as the the excess
power from the public utlity will be available.

Maybe i'm wrong but the alternative solution for the above formula is that TLNR is
always 100% and TNH is going above 100%.

Thanx
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 2 October, 2006 - 11:49 pm

When utility frequency increases while a unit is operating on Droop Speed Control
(including Constant Settable Droop) TNH will increase (since TNH is the ACTUAL
turbine shaft speed which is directly proportional to frequency). TNRL isn't changing
because frequency changes; TNH does. The change in TNH precipitates the change in
load. Load won't change unless fuel changes.

When TNH increases, the error between TNRL and TNH decreases which reduces the
amount of fuel, which reduces the power output and causes TNRL to decrease because
DWDROOP decreases.

That's what Droop Speed Control is supposed to do--and that's why utilities all over the
world require generators paralleled with their grids to have Droop Speed Control. When
frequency increases, it's because there is more power being provided to the grid than
there is load using the power--so Droop Speed Control lowers the outputs of the units
operating at part load on Droop Speed Control and that helps to control grid frequency.

Conversely, when grid frequency decreases it's because there is not enough power being
applied to the grid to supply the load using the power--so Droop Speed Control increases
the fuel to try to bring frequency back to "normal." It's not clear where the
FSRN(existing) came from; it appears to be a way of expressing that the value of FSRN
from the previous scan of the CSP is being used.?.?.?

You need to use the values of DWKDG for your unit and build yourself a table of values.
DWDROOP will never be negative, unless power flow is negative.

Unfortunately, this author has a new computer and no access to his old one, and MS
doesn't provide the MS_lineDraw.ttf font with WinXP.... Can we say we love Microsoft?
(Actually, this author has made a lot of money because of the way MS does business; it's
not easy money--in fact, it can be pretty frustrating at times. But that's the way the world
works, eh?) So, a CSP looks like gooble-de-gook without the proper font.

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by Bob on 6 October, 2006 - 11:09 am

Thank you again for your reply.
Last question just for my understanding (hope you don't mind).

If i'm connected to the grid and frequency change is because my network is producing
more power then what is required (loss of loads somehere).

Practically the excess power will be absorbed by all the machines connected to the
network like kinetic energy increasing the rotor speed and therefore frequency.
(I suppose that all generators connected to the grid and the grid it's self are in droop with
frequency at 50Hz, no ISOCH control)

If the droop acts to close the fuel valve

of each generator (including grid itself)reducing the MW ouput according to the speed the
total produced power decrease and then again the speed.

It looks that the balance point cannot be reached

at more the 50Hz.

From my understanding i though that new balance point is at smth more then 50Hz but
i'm not able to give an explanation. Could you help me?
Reply to this post...

Posted by Bob on 6 October, 2006 - 7:41 pm

Thanx for your prompt reply.
I have just an additional question for my understanding, hope you don't mind.

Suppose i have my plant with four generators and the plant is connected to the grid (let's
say that TNH is 100%).

If frequency increase is because the grid (which is suppose to be very big) increase the
power generation more then required (i.e.some big load has been disconnected from the
grid).

Now the extra power coming from the grid should be absorbed by my gererators and all
the other generators connected to the grid like kinetic energy increasing the rotating speed
of the rotor and therefore frequency in the network (let's say 101% TNH; moreover all
generators in the entire network are in DROOP speed control).

Thus all generators will receive a command to close the fuel valve as per droop
characteristic.

Now it was my understanding that the new balance point for all the generators is at
101%.

But if all generators are closing the fuel gas valves the kinetic energy coming from the
extra power should decrease and all the generators will produce the required power (P
generated= P Load).

If so the frequency should drop again to the previous 100% TNH.

Can you clarify me better how the generators will respond in DROOP and how the
kinetic energy is changing with different transient condition?

Thanx
Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 7 October, 2006 - 11:44 am

Yes, it would seem that a stable point will not be reached. But, in reality, the dynamics of
an electric grid is a science all by itself.

The discussions here have all been under "ideal" conditions and do not necessarily reflect
what would happen on a real grid, especially a large, "infinite" grid.

Grids can be "soft" or "hard." Stability depends on lots of factors, including the distances
between generators and loads. The types of generator prime movers (combustion
turbines, steam turbines, hydro turbines, reciprocating engines, wind turbines, etc.) all
respond differently to changes in load/frequency caused by frequency excursion.

It is recommended you refer to some texts on electric utility grid control for the finer
details you are searching for.

The real effect of droop speed control is to reduce the effect of frequency excursions, not
to completely correct them. Grids require monitoring and control to maintain stability and
frequency control.

markvguy
Reply to this post...

Posted by csr on 4 August, 2006 - 8:56 am

what the meaning of TNR &TNH?

how we will set droop for a particular machine (ex:45 droop)?

Reply to this post...

Posted by markvguy on 5 August, 2006 - 11:30 am

The Search function of control.com is VERY fast and powerful; most of these control-
system specific terms have been defined in previous posts.

TNR is GE SpeedTronic-speak for Turbine Speed Reference ("N" is typical mnemonic

for speed in mathematical formulae).

TNH is GE SpeedTronic-speak for Turbine Speed-High-pressure Shaft (since turbines

can have more than one shaft, they are usually identified as high-pressure, low-pressure,
or intermediate-pressure, depending on the unit/configuration). This is generally the
ACTUAL speed of the prime mover.

The method by which the droop is set or specified in a control system depends on the
control system and its vintage. Generally, it's a VERY BAD idea to change droop settings
from those originally supplied with the unit without a complete power system study and a
review of how it would affect other operating parameters (loading/unloading rates, etc.).

markvguy
Reply to this post...

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