Morgan Burke-NCAA Interview Notes

Case 4:14-md-02541-CW Document 616-8 Filed 04/14/17 Page 1 of 32
EXHIBIT F
KGE Interview with Mitch Barnhart; AD, U of KY

Lexington, KY, 12/19/16
Also Present: John Bigelow (JPB), Britt Miller (BMM), on Phone Robert Fuller (RWF)
1. Preliminary
MB was in Las Vegas and saw the KY/UNC basketball game. The matchup was
spectacular. It was one of most enjoyable games to watch. Both teams made
plays, and last team to make a play won. The game got a 2.4 rating on CBS, which is
off the charts for regular season game.1
2. Re: Amateurism
a. In MBs view, if student-athletes were not amateurs, as that term is used by
the NCAA, intercollegiate sports would be viewed very differently. MB
believes that fans view the players as representatives of their school. Most
people who come to intercollegiate games view the players, first, as students.
Among other things this means they are young people who aspire to
something bigger, and, in part, the games are about young people finding
their way. MB believes thats part of the reason the fans support the teams.
i. MB claims most fans look at the games as an extracurricular activity,
something that is entertaining and fun.
ii. MB said most student-athletes at KY arent good enough to play at the
next level (professional leagues like the NFL and NBA). For students
like these, MB sees value in supporting a young persons education
and growth. There are not many Malik Monks.2 At Oregon State he
had only about 2 players in 5 years who were ready to play
professionally. KY is unusual in how much pro level talent the school
attracts.
iii. The fans look at KY as their institution; it represents their state.
They do not look at KY sports the same way they would look at a
professional athlete, the way an NFL fan looks at an NFL player. MB:
the attitude of a typical fan is, I enjoy supporting that young persons
education; I wouldnt enjoy paying their salary.
1On the assumption that he is talking about a Nielsen rating, this means that in 2.4% of all the households in
the United States at least one television set was tuned to the KY/UNC game.
2Malik Monk is a Freshman member of U of KYs basketball team. He is ranked 5th in DraftExpresss top 100
prospects for the NBA draft, and is ranked 1st among SEC prospects.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Malik-Monk-7243, last visited 12/20/2016. During the UNC game he
scored 47 points, which was a record for a freshman. http://www.cbssports.com/college-
basketball/news/kentucky-unc-highlights-malik-monks-47-points-had-to-be-seen-to-be-believed/, last
visited 12/22/2016.
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iv. MBs program (collectively) has about 500 student-athletes. For 475
of them, this is the best (highest level of competition, training,
facilities, and etc.) theyll ever get.
b. If student-athletes were no longer amateurs but instead were paid whatever
the market would bear, its hard to speculate how much attendance would
decline.
i. MB acknowledged that there is a part of the fan base that always will
want to watch (intercollegiate) athletics.
ii. But attendance would decline. MB gave example of baseball vs.
football and basketball. Even though baseball is as American as apple
pie, attendance isnt great in college baseball. One reason: talented
young baseball players can go to the pros right out of high school or go
to college. In that system the minor league pro teams often get the
top guys, and colleges and universities are not always getting the
best players.
iii. Re attendance concerns, MB said Its already hard enough to fight the
7 inch television. (not sure what this means) If paying salaries to
student-athletes diminishes demand for intercollegiate sports, it
changes everything. If that were to happen, the opportunity to
foster 500 opportunities in 20 sports goes away.
iv. Absent amateurism, i.e., under pay for play, MB doesnt think KY
could afford 85, and the number of student-athletes on GIA would be
smaller.
c. MB believes that if intercollegiate sports were more professional, and less
amateur, youd have fewer teams and fewer players. There would be fewer
opportunities to put teams out there, and that would limit the number of
people who could play.
3. Asked about this quote from a senior university administrator:
I believe if were required to pay athletes for play, turn
them into professional or semiprofessional players, I
think that will ultimately undermine the reason why
higher education is involved in intercollegiate athletics
in the first place. . . . I think if youre paying them to play
athletics, I think it is inconsistent with the idea of what a
student athlete is.3
a. MB believes there are a large number of schools that would struggle with
paying student-athletes as professional or semi-professionals. It would
3 Harvey Perlman (Chancellor, U. of Nebraska), Deposition, pp. 126-7.
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undermine the reason we bring them to our campus. They are honored for
their athletic accomplishments and for their work as students. The 20
hours we spend with our young people is because they go to class. Practice
doesnt start until 2 PM because theyre in class and after practice there is
study hall at night.
MB described a way in which athletes are treated differently from students
with other kinds of special talent. He said that we dont call students who
sing student-singers, etc. Only athletes get that treatment. But in MBs
view, varsity athletes are students, no different from others at KY. They just
use a different part of their body.
MB described an incident in which a student who was a singer and had
considerable talent left KY early for a professional opportunity, and nobody
criticized her for doing so. But, he said, a student-athlete who left school
early to play professionally would be criticized. Double standard.
b. MB believes that if the athletes on KYs football and basketball teams were
paid whatever the market would bear, it would change how people look at
them. He said the standard to which student-athletes are held is high, and
that student-athletes cannot drift from that and play at KY. But, he said,
those relationships get different if theyre not students and going to class
and is not part of the equation.
c. If there were professional athletes on the football and basketball teams, the
economic model would not work for the other sports that have varsity teams
but do not bring in revenue (like football and mens basketball). As it is the
economic model is hard to sustain. MB is frequently asked by proponents of
other sports, e.g., lacrosse, field-hockey, equestrian,4 to give them varsity
status, and he has to say, No, because the economics dont work. If
football and mens basketball became professionalized, other varsity sports
would disappear being relegated to club or intramural status.5
4. Recruiting
a. With the exception of football, the primary source for recruiting student-
athletes is camps, clubs, AAU tournaments, and summer teams. For most
sports today, high school athletics is ineffective. The focus for recruiting is
on club teams or summer teams. Basketball has AAU, and other sports have
summer leagues and club teams. Scouts watch players develop in these
4The athletic departments website lists 10 mens varsity teams: Baseball, Basketball, Cross Country, Football,
Golf, Rifle, Soccer, Swimming & Diving, Tennis, and Track & Field; and 11 womens varsity teams: Basketball,
Cross Country, Golf, Gymnastics, Rifle, Soccer, Softball, Swimming & Diving, Tennis, Track & Field, and
Volleyball. http://www.ukathletics.com/, last visited 12/22/2016. Note that lacrosse, field-hockey, and
equestrian are not on that list.
5 Intramural sports at KY are not MBs responsibility.
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organizations. Coaches watch the high school students in tournaments, z.B. a

star player at a high school in Kansas would join with (star) players from
other towns and play during the summer where scouts and coaches would
them play. The high school coach used to be one of the most important
people to players. Now Club coach is getting close.
Football is the only exception, and even in football theres a trend away from
the emphasis on high schools as 7 on 7 teams are touring during the
summer.6
b. When KY competes with other schools for high school athletes what
persuades a recruit to choose KY depends in part on the sport.
i. In football, MB hopes the player has an affinity for the school such as a
family connection to the school. KY wants to keep in-state students
here. You do that by creating an atmosphere that allows them to be
the best version of themselves. Thats accomplished with facilities,
coaching, training, food, medical care, and the opportunity to play
against the best competition, i.e., the SEC. A football player who
comes to KY can showcase himself against the best players in the
country in a stadium filled with 80 thousand people. At KY, playing
time is a draw for football players. KY can compete with a better
program for players by offering them more playing time than they
would be likely to get at those programs.
ii. In basketball, the situation is different. KY competes for recruits by
telling them were very adept at helping you build to our dream. In
basketball KY used a platoon system for several years when they had
10 very good players. The players were taught how to work within
such a system, including how to sacrifice individual goals for one
another, i.e., for the benefit of the team.
67 on 7 refers to summer football programs organized for high school students. It is an all-passing sport
becoming more popular across the country as elite high school players look for ways to sharpen their skills
during the offseason or display their talents to college recruiters. (Behind the Blue Disk, Division I Football
Recruiting: 7-on-7 Events, NCAA, http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/NCAA+7-on-7+Events.pdf, last
visited 1/17/2017 hereafter NCAA on 7-on-7). Some student-athletes attribute their visibility and
opportunities to 7-on-7 football. One student-athlete told ESPN, They videotaped me in a tryout, and two
days later I got five offers in one day, Bush said. Ohio State, Miami, Florida, Florida State and Boston College.
Since then, it's built up to 21. Without them, I wouldn't have as much exposure as I have right now. (Joe
Schad, 7-on-7: A touch-and-go Situation, ESPN.com, May 27, 2011,
http://www.espn.com/espn/print?id=6600377, last visited 12/22/2016, hereafter ESPN on 7-on-7.) 7-on-
7 football is also the source of some concern to NCAA officials because of the role of so-called non-scholastic
coaches injecting themselves into the recruitment process, (ESPN on 7-on-7) since college coaches are not
allowed to attend 7-on-7 tournaments. (ESPN on 7-on-7 and NCAA on 7-on-7.)
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c. MB discussed the effect of increasing (across Division I) the allowable

number of athletic scholarships,7 e.g., from 85 to 100 in football or from 13
and 15 in mens and womens basketball respectively to 20.
i. In football, an increase in the number of scholarships would cause the
quality of play at a lot of schools to go down. The top ranked
programs would soak up the talent and lower ranked programs would
only be able to attract less desirable players. Its already true that
depth in football has gone down, which MB associates with
(misplaced in his opinion) fears of injury by parents.
ii. In womens basketball increasing the number of allowed athletic
scholarships would not grow the game.8 In fact most womens
basketball teams dont have the 15 scholarship players theyre
allowed now. Pat Summitt9 never had more than 12 players.
iii. In mens basketball MB doesnt think it would be possible to manage
20 people on athletic scholarships.
d. If the dollar amount of scholarships were smaller, then recruiting athletes
would likely be more difficult because that would mean that some families
would have to cover the costs of tuition and related expenses either from
their own resources or from need-based scholarship funds. For some of the
families of student-athletes, that would be a challenge.
5. Revenue and non-Revenue Sports
a. Football and Mens basketball are the only two sports that consistently draw
big crowds, and even in those sports there are lots of schools where they still
dont break even. At KY these are the only two sports that make money.
Womens basketball draws crowds but doesnt make money. The same
pattern is true at most other schools.
b. With a few exceptions, if its not football or mens basketball, the sport
doesnt make money.
i. Womens basketball at UConn is an exception.
7 MB said that in addition to the NCAA rule limiting the number of athletic scholarships a school can have in
each sport, there are also Conference rules limiting the number of players that can be signed in any one year.
For example, in the SEC a school can only sign 25 football players in a year. He indicated that there was a
similar limit in basketball, but did not state it. These rules keep coaches from, running people off.
8 In connection with this, MB said, You want the game to grow or it will die.
9 Pat Summitt was the coach of the U. of Tennessee Womens Basketball team from 1974 to 2012. During her
coaching career she had more wins than any other coach of any mens or womens Division I basketball team.
(Jer Longman, Pat Summitt, Tennessee Basketball Coach Who Emboldened Womens Sports, Dies at 64,
The New York Times, June 28, 2016, http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/sports/ncaabasketball/pat-
summitt-obituary.html?_r=0, last visited 12/22/2016)
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ii. At LSU and Arkansas, baseball can draw crowds. (wonder about UVA)
c. KY does receive donations for non-revenue sports: Among alumni, there is
significant interest in Olympic sports. However, if not for the money earned
by football and mens basketball, KY wouldnt be able to support those
Olympic sports. (Shooting? Equestrian?)
6. Walk-Ons
a. KY has some walk-ons on its football team. This is possible because bodies
change fast in football. A young person who was too small to compete in high
school might come in and build up his body and develop to the point that he
becomes viable as a player. Since injuries play a part in football, a student-
athlete who was initially 4th string (and a walk-on) might get an opportunity
to play.
b. KY has had some walk-on on its mens basketball team. Generally, these
players work on the practice squad; they are unlikely to be talented enough
to get on the floor (or go pro). Unlike football, there is not much scope for
change in the players bodies. Tall or short dont change.
The experience can still be worthwhile for them, because it means they can
add playing for KY to their rsum. That helps student-athletes who are
interested in coaching or some kind of work related to the sports business
build their career. Such persons are more likely to prefer playing for KY to
playing for a lower ranked school where they would get more game time but
KY offers better future connections to the sports business
7. Eligibility
a. MB has watched academic standards change over the years. The changes
have the affected pool of people who can be recruited. MB said that you
have to be strategic. If you make mistakes about who you bring into your
programs, it can affect your ability to award scholarships in the future. You
also have to be careful about whom you recruit to ensure that players fit
into the locker room.
b. Fifteen or twenty years ago the concern for coaches about losing players to
ineligibility was mostly academic; now those concerns are more character
driven. MB said that, We at KY do 5 things. His list was:
i. Character, which he described as a matter of the heart,
ii. Integrity, which he described as a matter of the brain, i.e., do you
know the rules?
iii. Education,
iv. Stewardship of resources, which he described as asking yourself, how
do you maximize your talents?
v. Compete like crazy, which he described as meaning that you show up
every day and give unbelievable effort.
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All the young people on his teams are accountable to student conduct
boards. The standard of accountability is high, and the level of scrutiny is
intense.
8. Financial
a. Without mens football and basketball, sports like womens basketball,
softball, and others, wouldnt have the visibility that they now have. Without
the success of revenue earning sports, i.e., football and mens basketball, KY
wouldnt be able to send its womens teams to all the places they do now.
b. MB says his department gives $2.2 million to the school for academic
scholarships each year. His department provides $3.7 million per year to
service revenue-based bonds. In addition, his department pays for all
athletic scholarships including those going to graduate assistants and
trainers; pays full fare for utilities and campus services; and pays the
university for services needed at special events, z.B., homecoming. In total,
MBs department will spend 22-25% of its budget in the form of funds
returned to the university. That does not include revenue from licensing
agreements, i.e., agreements allowing the universitys name and logo to be
used on clothing and souvenirs sold to the public. His department shares
that revenue 50/50 with the rest of the university.
c. Schools where Football and Basketball dont make as much money at the
teams do at KY cannot make these contributions back to their institution.
Student fees (for sports) at KY are $0 not so at other schools. Most
universities without these resources dont have as many sports.
9. MBs Background and Evolution of Intercollegiate Sports Administration
a. MB graduated from Ottawa University in Kansas in 1981, and was advised to
apply to the Sports Management program at Ohio University. At that time
only the University of Western Illinois, the University of Massachusetts, and
Ohio University had Sports Management programs. Ohio University was the
Harvard (or Yale - JPB) of Sports Administration. Nike has hired heavily from
Ohio Universitys program.
b. MB was awarded an MS from Ohio U. in 1982.10 He believes the timing of
that part of his education was ideally suited to five changes in the world of
intercollegiate sports that took place starting in the early to mid-1970s. They
are
i. The evolution of Nike,
ii. The evolution of ESPN,
10http://www.ukathletics.com/sport/general/2016/roster/559d9894e4b01c7eefd642bc, last visited

12/23/2016
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iii. The development of Bill Battles Collegiate Licensing Company11

iv. The deregulation of college sports on TV that came about as a result
of the Courts Oklahoma Regents decision, and
v. Title IX.
MB describes these as developments that all hit at the same time. Up until
the mid-70s, it had been possible for coaches to retire into sports
administration. With these developments, that path was no longer so easy,
as the administrative/managerial/financial role became more demanding
and complex.
11 According to its website, the Collegiate Licensing Company (CLC) was founded in 1981. The Collegiate
Licensing Company was founded in 1981 by Bill Battle after he signed legendary coach Paul "Bear" Bryant to
a licensing agreement. In the process of developing a licensing program for Coach Bryant, Battle discovered
that The University of Alabama did not have a licensing program. Alabama soon signed on as CLCs first
university client. Eight other schools quickly followed, and an industry was born. The CLC describes its
current business as follows CLC represents nearly 200 of the nations top colleges, universities, bowl games,
athletic conferences, the Heisman Trophy, and the NCAA. The collegiate partners that entrust CLC to protect,
promote, and grow their brands comprise nearly 80% of the $4.6 billion retail market for collegiate licensed
merchandise. https://www.clc.com/About-CLC.aspx, last visited 12/23/2016.
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KGE Interview with Greg Fenves, President, U. of TX, 2/3/2017

Present: KGE, JPB, Greg Fenves (GF), Kevin Sweeney (Polsinelli), Matt Provance (Mayer
Brown)
1. GF discussed relationship on campus between students who dont play varsity
sports and inter-collegiate athletics:
a. Multiple factors attract students to UT: academics, clubs, the opportunity to
network, sports, etc. These make up the UT brand, and were very conscious
of the brand. There is a certain environment on campus in which students
are engaged, and there is a campus culture. Having athletics programs that
compete at a top level is part of that culture. Students feel that culture on
campus.
b. GF related a sad example that illustrated the workings of that culture as it
relates to athletics. A young woman came to UT from Oregon. She was a
dancer and an artist who had never been interested in sports. She was
murdered on campus in April 2016. GF described this as the worst thing he
has ever had to deal with as president. The university conferred with her
parents about a memorial in her memory. The following fall the UT football
team wanted to dedicate one of its home football games to her. When GFs
staff spoke with her father about the possibility, he related the story of how,
during her first year at the university, the students friends had asked her to
go with them to a football game and how much she had enjoyed it. She had
come to UT interested in the culture of dance and art, but while she was
there she enjoyed the culture around sports and became part of that culture
as well.
2. GF discussed the relationship between the students who play varsity sports and
inter-collegiate athletics:
a. Terminology: GF said we always refer to student-athletes, not just athletes.
b. Students come to UT to get an education and that includes the student-
athletes. The universitys goal is for all student-athletes to graduate. We
sometimes have students come back and complete their degree. Academic
progress is important to everyone in the athletic department and at the
university.
c. GF recently conducted a review of the universitys academic support services
for student-athletes. He thinks UT has one of the best programs of academic
support. Three years ago UT started a program for sports leadership and
innovation.1 The program was founded by and is currently directed by
Daron Roberts, an HLS and Kennedy School of Government graduate.2 Its
purpose is to teach student-athletes (and other students) life management
skills, particularly financial management. UTs past experience was that
1 See http://sportsleadership.utexas.edu/#front-page-1, last visited 2/3/2017.

2 See also, http://sportsleadership.utexas.edu/staff/, last visited 2/3/2017.
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sometimes students who were successful in athletics often were not

successful in managing the financial pressures that came with such success.
The Center also works with high school coaches to prepare them to work
with their student-athletes.
3. GF discussed the relationship between alumni and inter-collegiate athletics: This
relationship is really important. He described athletics as the front door to the
university for alumni. Nor is this limited to alumni. He believes that many people
across the state, view the university through the lens of athletics
4. GF discussed the role of inter-collegiate athletics and the brand of the university:
a. UT has the Longhorn, brand, which is economically valuable. Its one of the
most recognized sports brands in the world, and UT is careful about
managing that trademark. UTs academic brand is distinct from its athletic
brand, and GF said, we dont try to bleed the two. UT doesnt want its
colleges to use the Longhorn brand. He wants the University of Texas
brand to convey the totality of the university including healthcare.
b. UT recently hired a marketing director. Because the universitys sports
program is so widely known, one project has been how the universitys
academic brand interacts with its sports brand.
5. GF discussed the anticipated consequences of student-athletes getting paid wages
driven by market forces:
a. GF cannot comprehend how athletics could be a part of university life if
student-athletes were professional players. GF was recently at a UT
basketball game, and watched a very talented freshman center, who is only
18 years old, play. He (the freshman center) has a great personality, and hes
a very good basketball player, but he also makes mistakes like a freshman.
The students know him, and the fans know him. He came to UT to get an
education, and they understand that. When he plays and makes mistakes
(e.g., turnovers) people say its his first season playing. Hes developing.
Hes not a professional. If it was solely up to a labor market, he might not be
playing, but if he was and was being paid a professionals salary and fans
watched him play and make stupid turnovers GF cannot imagine that
students and fans would continue to come to see him play.
b. GF believes that students go to games to watch their fellow students
compete, and that they would not be as interested in attending if the players
were professional.
c. With respect to the alumni, they come to the games in part because they love
to be back on campus, to see former players. GF sees a multi-generational
camaraderie among the alumni that does not exist in professional sports
franchises. If intercollegiate sports became professionalized the alumni
would not have the same allegiance to the school. UTs alumni donors, who
have been successful in business, come to support the school. GF doesnt
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think they would be as supportive of the school if its team was just another
professional sports team.
6. GF returned to the topic of UTs academic support services for student athletes:
a. The university has devoted very significant resources to academic advising
and academic support for student athletes.
b. In GFs first week as President, he was called upon to address allegations of
misconduct in the academics of a basketball player. An investigation was
made and the allegations turned out to be baseless.
c. The experience motivated him to ask how he knew there wasnt a systematic
problem. He used that incident as an opportunity to do a complete review of
academic advising and support for student-athletes. He hired outside
counsel to do a thorough review. The process took six months and included
investigating how student-athletes choose majors, whether student-athletes
are clustered in certain majors, looking at academic advising for student-
athletes both in academic departments and in the sports department, and
looking at admissions. The investigators came up with about 14
recommendations that the university has either adopted or is working on
adopting. Overall, the investigation concluded that the schools program for
academic advising and support of student athletes are well documented and
well organized.
d. The academic support and advising support services for student-athletes are
in a department within athletics and that department reports to the Athletic
Director. At some schools this program resides in the Provosts office. UT
has communication between academic advisors, athletics, and the Provosts
office.
7. GF discussed the implications of the litigation for UT as a public university. What
effect would professionalizing student-athletes have on state support for the
university?
a. On one hand, GF is not sure it would have much impact because UT does
not use state-appropriated funds for its athletic programs.
b. On the other hand, GF said there probably would be some effect on the
politics of supporting the university, which could be diminished if student-
athletes were professionalized. He placed this in the broader context of
general support for public higher education, which is on a downward trend.
Professionalizing student-athletes might accelerate that trend, but its hard
to say how much.
c. About 12% of UTs budget comes from state general appropriations, but GF
laughed in remarking that the state often wants 100% of control (same in
the Commonwealth of Virginia).
8. GF discussed the effect of athletic success on applications and admissions to the
university:
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a. Qualitatively speaking, GF said when you have a successful season, it

generates applications for the university. We get lots of applications. GF is
more interested in increasing the yield of students admitted, and he thinks
that athletic success would incrementally increase yield.
b. KGE related the story of Ralph Sampson, a UVA basketball star, who turned
down a $1.2 million salary offer to stay in school at UVA and graduate with
his class. GF said that UT had a similar experience, when Colt McCoy3 was a
student at UT, that was a big deal. People wanted to be in his class.
9. GF discussed the relationship between athletics and the universitys interest in
diversity:
a. Addressing the question of racial and ethnic diversity, GF said UT has spent 8
years litigating diversity. GF thinks itss important to keep the universitys
racial and ethnic diversity goals separate from its athletic programs. He does
not want athletic programs to be the source of that diversity.
i. One reason why the inquiry into academic advising looked at
clustering of majors is his sensitivity to the view of some students that
think of African American students as only athletes.
b. On the other hand, referring to a broader and less litigious aspect of
diversity, GF said that athletics does play a role in ensuring that the
universitys student body includes students with a wide range of interests,
including art, music, dance, literature, science, mathematics, theatre, and
athletics. We dont want to graduate a class composed entirely of business
majors.
3McCoy, was a UT quarterback who graduated in 2010, and went 45-8 in 53 career starts ... his 45 victories
are the most in NCAA history. See http://www.texassports.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5057, last visited
2/3/2017.
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KGE Interview with Keith Gill, 2/8/2017

Present: KGE, SVL, JPB, Keith Gill (KG), AD U. of Richmond, Britt Miller (Mayer Brown), Molly
Delaney (Skadden)
1. KG discussed how the level of interest in intercollegiate athletics would change if student-
athletes were no longer amateurs.
a. In general:
There would certainly not be the same level of interest. Connectivity between
fans and student-athletes is important; alums and fans identify with students, so if
athletes were no longer students, that connection would be irreparably harmed.
Intercollegiate athletics would become equivalent to minor league sports. What sets
collegiate sports apart is that the participating athletes are students: both alums and
current students can identify with them.
b. With respect to students who are not student-athletes:
The crux of everything that we do and all the positive experience we generate is
because the individuals [athletes] are students. Members of the student body who
dont participate in athletics still connect because they see athletes in class and know
they are going through the same academic endeavors, such as taking exams, etc. At
the University of Richmond, the student experience is about higher education. If you
flip that it causes great harm.
c. With respect to other members of the university community:
The reaction would be the same (as non-athlete students) for other members of the
university community.
d. With respect to broadcasters and advertisers:
KG said there would be dramatic impacts. What makes the collegiate sports
enterprise unique is that its grounded in higher education with connectivity to
student experience. Once it becomes professional, he advised, think about how
many eyeballs you see on professional sports below the big 4 (NFL, NBA, NHL,
MLB). You dont see that on TV, but you do see college sports advertised and on TV.
There is a market for college sports because they are connected to a particular school
and/or conference. If they [the athletes] are not students, there is no connection.
People identify with the efforts of the athletes because they are students. If
intercollegiate sports turn into minor league sports, the interest will not be
sustainable. We [the University of Richmond] will not participate in that. For those
institutions that do, they probably wont be in it for long.
2. KG discussed the ways in which student-athletes share the student-experience of non-
athlete students.
Athletes do not live in separate dorms. They live in regular dorms with non-athlete
students. Technically there arent athletic dorms because of NCAA legislation that requires
that at least 51% of the occupants of a dormitory must be non-athletes. We would never
warehouse them [the student-athletes] that way.
More generally, KG said that the student experience [of student-athletes] is really
important to us. The University of Richmond has programs to make sure student-athletes
are integrated into the academic life of the student body. KG described these programs as
important to us.
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As an example, KG described the universitys study abroad program for student-athletes,

which it operates with the help of an international school. 60% of University of Richmond
students study abroad, and the school wants to provide the same learning experiences for
athletes that other students have. KG mentioned that its a challenge to send athletes
abroad. Were a little nervous until they come back safe, but he also said, our kids love
it. When they come back, they seem more mature. You can see, he added the growth
the opportunity has offered them.
3. KG discussed the consequences of differential payments to student-athletes, as would come
about if payments were market driven.
KG said that his answer depends on whether were talking about equivalency sports or
headcount sports.1 In equivalency sports, e.g. womens soccer, the players dont all get the
same amount of money from the school. So the model of differential payments already
exists outside of headcount sports.
Introducing differential payments into headcount sports would present challenges. You
would need to reassure people that all team members are thought of and connected in the
same way. It may also bring problems and upset the dynamic within those sports because it
is something those sports havent had to manage. KG doesnt see differential payments as
different in headcount than in equivalency sports, and they [the schools athletic programs]
have already done it in equivalency sports.
4. KG discussed managing academic eligibility and amateur-status eligibility of student-
athletes.
University of Richmond focuses more on academics than amateur status, but its concerns
are not limited to academic eligibility. KG said, We dont think of [just] eligibility. He said
Richmond tries to provide its student-athletes the best education possible, help them to
graduate, and prepare them for life.
He also said that there is some vulnerability with respect to amateurism. In that regard,
Richmond tries to educate its student-athletes to ensure that they know how their choices
affect them.
Richmond spends more time with its student-athletes on academics than on amateurism.
KG thinks academic issues would cause more risk of student-athletes becoming ineligible.
He said, Theres a reason we spend more time there.
5. KGE read the following quotation from Harvey Perlmans deposition, attributing it to the
Chancellor of another university.2
1 In certain sports called headcount sports NCAA rules limit the number of athletes who can be on
scholarship. One scholarship cannot be divided among two or more athletes. Each headcount scholarship
recipient receives a full ride scholarship. In other sports, called equivalency sports, there is a limit to the
number of scholarships allowed, but each one may be divided among multiple student-athletes. The
headcount sports are Division I FBS Football, Division I mens and womens Basketball, Division I womens
Tennis, Division I womens Gymnastics, and Division I womens Volleyball. See
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/sports-scholarships/head-count-versus-equivalency-scholarships.htm,
last visited 2/9/2017. For confirmation that Division I FCS football is an equivalency sport see also
http://www.scholarshipstats.com/football.html, last visited 2/9/2017.
2 Later during the interview, KGE identified the source of the quotation as Chancellor Perlman.
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I believe if were required to pay athletes for play, turn them into
professional or semiprofessional players, I think that will ultimately
undermine the reason why higher education is involved in
intercollegiate athletics in the first place. . . . I think if youre paying
them to play athletics, I think it is inconsistent with the idea of what
a student athlete is.3
KG said the statement is perfect. While acknowledging that he cannot speak for the
university as a whole, he said that he expected that the University of Richmond would get
out of this enterprise [intercollegiate athletics] if we have to pay athletes and they become
employees. He believes that collegiate sports are one part of the college educational
experience, and anything that undermines that turns them (the student-athletes) into
employees. He believes that would be catastrophic and would turn intercollegiate
athletics into something of which the University of Richmond would not want to be a part.
For that reason, he agrees wholeheartedly with Perlmans statement.
6. KG discussed Richmonds recruiting process.
KG and his colleagues are trying to sell the University of Richmond, which is highly selective
and known for its high-quality education. At Richmond the average class size is 8 [!]. There
are several selling points used to recruit athletes:
Care for the students, which includes a bridge program for incoming freshman
football and basketball players held during the summer. The program helps them
get acclimated and teaches them time management and study skills.
A small scale and intimate college experience. KG described the University of
Richmond as a high-touch environment, both athletically and academically.4
A commitment to excellence, including a commitment to the development of the
whole person.
The University of Richmond tries to sell the quality of education, the quality of the school,
the high-touch environment, and the support system to families, telling them at the end of
the day, your son or daughter will be a better person when they leave here. KG believes
that for the most part we are able to succeed in that regard.
KG believes that the incumbent student body is one important factor in recruiting new
student-athletes. He said it is important what the student body is, how friendly people are,
how many students come to games, what the dining hall experience is like, how students are
greeted in class, and what other students report about classes. However, he also said that in
the recruiting process, it is hard to know what the compelling factor is, but everything
matters. For each person, some factors are more important than others.
7. KG discussed what would happen if certain NCAA rules governing athletic scholarships
were changed.
3 Harvey Perlman Deposition, pp. 126-7.

4The on-line version of the Oxford English Dictionary defines the phrase high-touch, as Denoting or relating
to a business characterized by a very close relationship with its customers or clients.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/high-touch, last visited 2/9/2017.
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a. He discussed what would happen if schools were allowed to give more athletic
scholarships. The example KGE provided for this purpose was an increase from 13
to 15 in the number of athletic scholarships a division I mens basketball team could
grant.
KG said that would be a huge game changer. KG compared the effect of this rule on
the University of Richmond and the University of Kentucky. Kentucky is number 1
in the pecking order, and Richmond is 65. If the number of allowable scholarships
goes up by 2, then Kentucky gets 2 more top-notch athletes. But by the time the
effect reaches Richmond, they would be recruiting from a different pool because
more students have gone up above. It would mean that upwards of 120 more
players have gone to higher ranked schools. 2 more average kids wouldnt change
the game much for the University of Richmond, but it would make the team harder
to manage. You can only play 5 people at a time, and most coaches rotations are
usually 8 or 9 players. With 15 players, you have to manage 6 people who are not
going to play, for whom it is even hard to find practice time. During practice you
play your top 5 against the next 5. That leaves 5 more. Bigger teams are harder to
manage. KG asked his own question, Would we take 15 kids in mens basketball?
His answer was, I dont know, although he acknowledged that a lot of mens
basketball programs do use their full roster.
b. KG discussed what would happen if the maximum dollar value of the Grant-in-Aid
was reduced by 10% across the board (affecting all universities).
KG believes that if the reduction was applied across the board, then he (and other
schools) would get the same results they now get in recruiting student-athletes.
8. KG discussed the effect on non-revenue sports of football and basketball players being
treated as employees and receiving market-driven payments.
a. First he described the possible effect these changes would have on athletic
department budgets and the possible consequences of those effects.
KG believes the change would put the non-revenue sports at risk because of the
need for athletic departments to balance their budgets. He said that some of the
Olympic Sports would be at peril, and could potentially be dropped to manage
the cost structure.
b. Then, he went on to discuss the role of money in intercollegiate athletics generally.
KG lamented that because of the money involved in intercollegiate athletics,
observers dont take its educational role seriously enough. He said, Just because
there is money in the system [intercollegiate athletics] doesnt mean its not based
in education. KG believes that intercollegiate athletics really is about higher
education, although you dont hear that in the media. He said that universities like
his are trying to build the best educational experience for their student-athletes. He
said that goal is advanced by the way the school invests in facilities, faculty, and
coaches. He said that, while there is revenue from exposure on TV, that does not
change collegiate sports from an educational experience.
9. KG discussed Walk-ons.
University of Richmond has some walk-ons. There might be between 5 and 10 on
Richmonds football team. Typically there are more walk-ons at state schools because
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tuition is less expensive and more people grow up wanting to go to their state school and
play on their team. Basketball is a little different because the teams are small.
It is not rare for walk-ons eventually to get aid. KG estimates about 25% eventually receive
aid. In headcount sports, its harder for a walk-on to get a grant, because the student would
have to get a full ride. KG believes that in the FBS the difference between the number of
walk-ons at public universities and the number at private universities will be bigger than
the difference between the number at public universities and private universities in the FCS.
KG said that across Division I there are a ton of people playing as walk ons. Playing
requires a very big commitment, so student-athletes have to love their sport to commit at
this level. This illustrates the tremendous benefit that student-athletes get from playing a
college sport, which is under-discussed.
10. KG discussed the effect a successful sports program has on financial giving to a university.
KG believes there is a tremendous impact. He identifies two ways: the first, direct giving,
enables the university to seek donations for specific projects. For these projects the
University of Richmond uses sports programs to create donor interest, and in this regard
winning is really important. Often this money allows the school to build or improve
campus facilities, and not just athletic facilities.
The other way sports programs attract financial payoffs is by creating affinity for the school
through touches. Basketball and Football are the most effective means of getting people
to come back to campus, giving the school the opportunity to interact with its alumni,
creating awareness and exposure. Athletics and donor activity are inextricably linked.
This effect is not limited to on-campus sporting events. Around the country the university
and its alumni have watch parties, especially for big games, such as traditional rivalries.
KG expects the university to have 20 watch parties for the basketball game against VCU.
Through these kinds of activities, collegiate sports create ways to engage people for whom
the University of Richmond has no other tools for engagement.
Even when alumni dont attend a watch party, a beneficial touch still occurs. When an
email goes out to a group of people about a watch party, it may be that only 5% of recipients
will attend, but most will read the e-mail, and doing so puts the school on their mind.
11. KG discussed why intercollegiate baseball is different (less prominent, less visible, less the
object of attention and interest) from intercollegiate football and basketball despite the fact
that among professional sports the MLB is, along with the NFL and the NBA, one of the most
important sports leagues in the country.
KG thinks the suggestion that part of the difference is attributable to Minor League Baseball
may be right. He said the one thing thats really important in athletics is to play at the
highest level. If people dont perceive youre playing at highest level, they will have
diminished interest. For example, there is less interest in FCS football than in FBS football
because the level of competition in the latter is higher. As far as baseball in concerned, if
you move the best players into the minor leagues, there will be less interest in collegiate
competition.
12. KG discussed the effect of academic eligibility rules on coaches ability to recruit student-
athletes.
Asked if coaches report feeling constrained by academic eligibility requirements, KG said
Our [The University of Richmonds] coaches would say they are very constrained. The
University of Richmond has more stringent admission requirements than the NCAA
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minimum standard. This means that many students the University of Richmond does not
accept will end up playing against the university in various sports, and according to KG,
thats hard. But KG said, the academic rigor is an institutional value, and they (the school)
are committed to living by those values. At the University of Richmond, the standard of
academic rigor is high. Students who are struggling cannot hide in small classes. Reducing
admission requirements for athletes would bring in students who cant make it, and would
put the school at risk for academic fraud.
13. KG discussed his role as vice-chair of the NCAA Division I Council.
Division I of the NCAA has a Board of Directors whose members are all university
Presidents. The Council reports to that board. The Council has a chair and a vice-chair
(KG). The Council manages Division I legislation. They meet in person 4 times per year, and
hold a group conference call (of roughly 5 hours duration) once a year. The leadership of
the Council holds a weekly (AD Com Athletic Directors Committee?) conference call.
The Council has been in existence for the last two years. KG is its first vice-chair, and has
two more years remaining in his term.
In Division I, a conference has to propose legislation. When legislation is proposed, it goes
first to the Legislative Committee, then to the Council, then it is sent out for comment,
before coming back to the Council. The process takes about a year.
14. KG discussed faculty critics of athletic programs who suggest that student-athletes miss out
on college experience.
KG said that some faculty dont understand what we [people who run athletic programs at
universities] do and make judgements about it anyway.
KG said we are professionals, we are thoughtful, we care about the kids. KG said that he
and his colleagues work very hard and do care about the development of their students. He
described this concern for student-athletes as a cultural thing. They are thoughtful about
their students experiences in college, including graduation, balancing other interests, time
off, and time to study. They want to help their athletes manage their lives as students. A
lot of faculty dont give us the credit for what we are trying to do. KG said, we actually are
professionals, care about kids, and care about their education.
15. KG discussed the suggestion that student-athletes could be considered as work-study
students whose work is to play sports, and that just as other work-study students receive
a wage for the work they perform, work-study-student-athletes could receive a wage for the
work they perform.
KG thinks trying to make this approach work would be a problem. He said those who
advocate it can use the words, work-study, but what theyre thinking of is not equivalent
to the traditional meaning of work-study. He would reject it as impossible. At the
University of Richmond, a full scholarship student gets $61,000. KG said it wouldnt be
possible for student athletes to work enough to pay the full price of their tuition.
KG also said that this comparison suggests that student-athletes are not getting anything
out of playing their sports. KG said thats wrong, and that our student-athletes want to
play. The university is not exploiting them; the student-athletes receive a huge benefit by
virtue of 1) the opportunity to go to school, play their sport, and receive all the coaching and
support that comes with doing so, and 2) the value this experience provides later in life. KG
said of his own life, I can never repay Duke [where he played football] for what they gave
me.
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KGE Interview with Nathan Hatch, President of Wake Forest

Present: KGE, JPB, Britt Miller (Mayer Brown), Nathan Hatch (Wake Forest) [NH], Bill Davis (Bell
Davis and Pitt), Erik Albright (Smith Moore) Reed Morgan (Wake Forest).
1. NH discussed varsity athletics and the connection to students who do not play varsity
sports.
American universities are distinct from universities in the rest of the world in the
way they become communities. NH draws contrast with European universities, e.g. the
French. European universities typically are state institutions and students live at home or
off campus. Extracurricular activities are few, compared with U.S. colleges. In the U.S., the
pattern of university life started with private schools where students lived on campus; and
that pattern continues with both private public universities. [KGE: as in UVAs academical
village] In this system, where you go to school becomes part of your identity. This
contributes to the stickiness between universities and their alumni.
Lots of things go into the relationship between students (and, ultimately, alumni)
and their universities. Athletics is one of them. We [Wake Forest] are privileged to be the
smallest institution in a big 5 conference. NH explained: by describing a student who said
he was attracted to Wake Forest because he was interested in quality academics, a small
attentive environment, and access to big time athletics. NH believes Wake Forest is
particularly well suited to provide that combination.
NHs impression of the role of athletics in the college life of students is informed by
his experiences at Wake Forest and at Notre Dame. Sports is a huge builder of spirit. He
said the best college experiences come when you do big things together and then you do
small things. This creates passion and identity. It has huge on-going power.
Wake Forest gets different audiences for football and basketball, as well as very
good audiences for soccer (3 4 thousand spectators at a game). Olympic sports also do
well.
NH posed and answered the question: Why is Notre Dame different from other
catholic universities like Marquette? He attributed the difference to athletic success. Notre
Dame had Knut Rockne. It successfully challenged the dominant position in intercollegiate
athletics of protestant schools. Notre Dame, then, channeled that athletic success into
academics. Similarly, calling attention to both schools Baptist roots and Southern location,1
he asked: Why is Wake Forest different from the University of Richmond? The answer he
gave was the level of athletic success, as demonstrated by the fact that Wake Forest is one of
the schools that was invited to join the ACCC.2
2. NH discussed athletics and diversity
Athletics helps WF meet its diversity goals in striking ways, perhaps excessively so
in the past. WF has a large number of African-American athletes. WF admits a large
1Percival Perry; The History of Wake Forest University, Wake Forest College Bulletin, January, 1974,
https://web.archive.org/web/20131203103418/http://www.wfu.edu/history/HST_WFU/perry.html, last
visited 2/20/2017; and History of Richmond College, http://rc.richmond.edu/about/history.html, last
visited 2/20/2017.
2By contrast, Richmond plays in the Atlantic 10 Conference, http://www.atlantic10.com/, last visited
2/20/2017.
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number who can do the work, but maybe wouldnt get in without athletics. That changes
their life. Most athletes will not play professional sports, despite their aspirations. It is the
fact that they get college degrees and an education that changes their lives. According to
NH, to make education the preparation for life after athletics, thats the challenge for
college sports.
3. NH discussed varsity athletics and student-athletes.
KGE read the following quotation to NH
[I]ntercollegiate athletics is not academic, but its educational. The
life lessons you learn through the group dynamics and team
participation . . . is invaluable; how to manage conflict resolution
within a group, how to work with people from all walks of life, all
those learning experiences and more are significant beyond your
sport.3
NH thinks the sentiments expressed in the quotation are very true. He wishes
there were more opportunities for all WF students to experience the formation, discipline
and feedback that varsity athletes and ROTC students get. Its extremely rigorous. On field
and off, every move is watched. The experience is tremendously formative. NH
acknowledged that it can be abused, but believes that in the main it is very valuable to a
varsity athlete. He related a conversation with a corporate Finance Director who recruits
at WF and has expressed a preference for hiring student-athletes because of the discipline
and work-ethic to which they are accustomed.
In addition, athletics offers great training and contacts for some students after
graduation.
Arnold Palmer started playing golf at WF and went on to have a long and successful
career in Professional Golf.
4. NH discussed non-revenue sports.
Here [at Wake Forest University] soccer has a lot of followers. Other sports have
more modest followings. The most important thing many of the athletes in these sports get
is a full scholarship. At a private university (like Wake Forest) or even at (especially for out-
of-state students) a public university, what student-athletes receive is a tremendous gift,
and that applies both to academics and what you learn through sports.
5. NH discussed club sports.
NH is not kept fully informed about club sports but is aware, for example, that Wake
Forest is in the ACCC championship for hockey at the club level. Support for club sports is
complicated. In the main they are not supported by the Department of Athletics, and their
organization is formally separated from that department. However, having the facilities and
expertise that the Athletics Department has enhances club sports.
6. NH regarding varsity athletics and university alumni:
Varsity athletics has huge issues of development and advancement where alumni
are concerned. It is a source of stickiness, by which NH means keeping people attached to
the university. For example, WFs largest donor is a 96-year-old lawyer who lives in
3 Deposition of Eugene Smith, pp. 37-8.
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Charlotte. On one occasion, after selling a significant asset, he gave $40 million in cash to
the university. His greatest joy is watching Wake Forest athletics. Hes coming here for the
Duke game.
NH explained how alumni bonds that are formed and maintained through athletics
are powerful connectors that universities use for overall support. One key in philanthropy
is keeping people connected. Athletics can do that for a university, because you can get
alumni to meet around an athletic event. You can see the effect in emerging universities
starting football programs.
Referring to KGEs letter from Tim Brown,4 NH described the overall strategy, as
being that you want people to give to athletics but you also want them to give to the rest of
the university. He said that some of the best known university presidents of the 50s and
the 60s understood that. NH identified, as examples, Kingman Brewster, who was President
of Yale, Clark Kerr, who was President of Berkeley, Bill Friday, who was President of UNC,
and of course Father Theodore Hesburgh, who was President of Notre Dame.
7. NH discussed a hypothetical regime in which payments to collegiate football and basketball
players were unrestrained by rules with stellar athletes potentially receiving large
payments.
NH said he is impressed by how many presidents and chancellors say they wouldnt
go there, by which he indicated they wouldnt be willing to participate in such a system. He
acknowledged that some would, however, and said there would be a shake out. The top
tier universities would just not do that. John Jenkins at Notre Dame said he would not do
that. NH believes, Our trustees would not buy that system.
NH said that imposing such a system would radically change the way Olympic
sports are funded. You wouldnt have the money to give full scholarships in non-revenue
sports. (He explained that he sometimes used the term Olympic sports to refer to non-
revenue sports.) No sports other than Football and Basketball pay their way when you
include scholarships. There would be a contraction of sports, and sports would be much
less visible. A lot of schools would operate the way the Ivy League does now.
NH said that paying student-athletes more money would make it harder for the
students to maintain a balance between athletics and academics.
NH said that if payments were increased to student-athletes in smaller increments,
or were made in different forms, the effect would be one of gradation. It would make it
harder to sustain the same number of sports. And, the other question is whether the alumni
and trustees would put up with it. NH did not think so.
8. NH discussed a regime in which some schools in the ACC would, in effect, pay market wages
to student athletes, but others did not.
NH said the answer would depend on whether or not a new set of schools were
allowed to form an organization based on a premise of equality. If that were not allowed,
4KGE described a fund-raising letter he and his wife had received from Timothy Brown, who is the President
of Western Theological Seminary in Holland, MI. President Brown wrote, I often think of colleges and
universities with basketball and football teams that draw alumni and friends onto their campus to show off. I
wish we had something like that it isn't really practical or exciting to have you come here and watch
students studying in a classroom. Letter dated November 2016 from Timothy Brown to Dr. & Mrs. Kenneth
G. Elzinga.
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it would be absolutely destructive. NH believes the conferences could not hold together
under those circumstances, and said that if conferences cant make rules you have
destroyed the meaning of what a conference is.
In the current system, he said, there is some revenue sharing, and some measure of
equality. If every school went by the free market, some schools could continue to operate
their athletic programs, but others could not. In the ACC, private schools probably could not
continue operating under these rules because scholarships are so expensive. With large
payments going to star athletes in football and basketball there wouldnt be enough to pay
for full scholarships in other sports.
NH said that one view of student-athletes is that theyre exploited. Another is that
theyre show-cased. NH thinks scholarship athletes have such a privileged position. They
receive tutoring, are fed at special training tables, and receive a lot of attention.
If the amateur status of college sports were removed, NH thinks there would be a
huge fall off across the board in terms of loyalty to institutions, which would affect
television viewership. The conferences would be unable to hold together. Some schools
would adopt the free market approach, and they would become like junior league NFL or
NBA organizations. He thinks it is absolutely true that if schools were paying student-
athletes unlimited amounts it would rip apart the existing conferences and schools would
try, if they could, to form new organizations with other like-minded institutions.
If payments to students were to go up about 20%, NH believes it would imply less
money for Olympic sports. He thinks it would be corrosive for student athletes. He also
said that any change for football and basketball would be magnified by Title 9. Even going
to full COA [Cost of Attendance] in all sports was a budget challenge.
9. NH discussed enforcement of academic eligibility rules.
Enforcement is very serious, and he has witnessed this at two institutions, Wake
Forest and Notre Dame, that take it very seriously. He described enforcing academic
standards as having to say, That person is a great athlete but he shouldnt be at a
university. He said the problem is complicated because big state universities have valid
programs for helping underprepared students succeed. But he also referred to a University
of Michigan scandal in which the university put football players into what he described as
night school. He described the story as shocking, and said that it reinforced an
impression that there is almost no good athlete that some Division I school wont take as
qualified.
Wake Forest faces decisions about students who are talented athletes, but are
unlikely to graduate. The university must ask itself, is there some reason to believe this
person can come and do the work with appropriate assistance?
NH said, our football coach has a raft of students he cannot recruit. WF doesnt
want students who cant succeed in the classroom.
NCAA involvement in this is important, and ongoing. Not only is the NCAA raising
standards, it is also conveying them to high school students, which NH regards as a very
positive development.
10. NH discussed the effect of athletic success on the universitys admissions and recruiting.
NH said that to some extent winning has an effect on admissions. A high visibility
success, like a national championship, is generally followed by an application spike, but he
also said that you dont see year to year perturbations. NH remarked on the number of
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people who say that they know WF because of its basketball team. He described being on
television as very valuable to his institution.
11. NH discussed his role as chair of the NCAA Division I Council.
In his time, the Council used to be just Presidents. Since then it has become more inclusive.
There wasnt any direct connection during his time at the NCAA with Athletics Directors.
That was a change from an earlier period when the NCAA had been an Athletics Director
organization. Under Miles Brand the idea came to be that Presidents should be in charge of
athletics. There was also an impetus to give the big 5 conferences more latitude so that they
would function within the NCAA.
At one time, there was a perception that Athletics Directors had retreated from
participation in NCAA governance. The ADs felt that the NCAA had become bureaucratic.
The governance structure was changed to get ADs more involved.
12. NH discussed an excerpt from his bio that reads His time leading Wake Forest has been
characterized by achievements on five fronts: [one of which is] undertaking bold
initiatives to develop new programs to educate the whole person.5
NH said that discipline and formation in all areas of life are elements of college life
that are important to him. [KGE: Nexus to Don Flow] NH quoted Emerson: Character is
higher than intellect.6 Colleges used to have more rules and structures to develop their
students character. They acted in loco parentis. He said that now, we are challenged to say
that we do character development. But, he believes that if it is done right it has huge
benefits.
About the only parts of university life that develop character now are athletics and
ROTC. According to their documents the purpose of Greek life is character formation, but
their endeavors to fulfill their stated purpose are not always carried out.
5 http://president.wfu.edu/about/, last visited 1/26/2017.

6 See Ralph Waldo Emerson, The American Scholar, An Oration Delivered before the Phi Beta Kappa Society,
Cambridge, August 31, 1837, http://www.emersoncentral.com/amscholar.htm, last visited 2/20/2017
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KGE Interview with Morgan Burke, former AD of Purdue University, 2/22/17 @ Purdue.
Present: KGE, Morgan Burke [MB], JPB, Matt Provance (Mayer Brown), Britt Miller (Mayer Brown),
Trenten Klingerman (Purdue)
1. MB discussed what would happen if amateurism were out of the picture.
The way in which athletics work in China or Europe is instructive: athletes would become
part of the state, or the state-run sports system. In contrast, the system that American
universities and college have established is uniquely American. When the first collegiate
sports teams were set up, the motivation was that Americans were becoming soft, and
that sports/athletics could help us evolve as a country. The system of amateur athletics tied
to higher education, to MBs knowledge, doesnt exist anywhere else in the world.
MB had a successful diving coach who told him that in other countries kids who show signs
of athletic promise are pulled out of elementary school and placed into sports camps. Kids
in this situation, get little or no education. When international students come to American
universities to be student-athletes, they struggle to adapt because they dont understand
this model. We have many years of history. [KGE: reminded of Bill Wrights wife]
If university athletes were not amateurs, other students would see them as hired guns.
If student athletes were paid more it would be harder to integrate them into campus life
with other students. As it is, we all fight on most every campus to integrate student-
athletes into campus-student-life. But, coaches are type-A personalities. They refuse to
believe there are diminishing returns to the amount of time and effort their athletes devote
to their sport.
2. MB discussed alumni attitudes toward amateurism in intercollegiate athletics.
The attitude of alumni is a mixed bag.
A fraction thinks weve gone too far, and would argue that doing what Chicago did in 1939
would be better.1 Were our own worst enemies now. We cant go a day without a scandal
e.g., a sexual assault.
But America is still entrepreneurial. Competition is inbred. Kids who come to Purdue have
competed in high school sports, and they appreciate talent. Athletics is the front porch to
the university. Purdue alumni take pride in contributing to scholarships. They take pride
in that. Thats the predominant attitude.
But, theres a group that would say weve gone too far.
3. MB discussed what would happen if colleges and universities had highly paid athletes in
football and basketball, and whether or not that would change the probability of problems
with players.
1 The University of Chicago was once a football power, competing against the teams that would eventually
become the Big Ten. It was famous sea to shining sea for football. It boasted a legendary coach, a Heisman
Trophy winner and a national championship. In 1939 it gave up football. Football returned as a club sport in
the fifties and became a varsity sport again in 1969. The Chicago Maroons now play varsity football in
Division III. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/sports/ncaafootball/at-the-university-of-chicago-
football-and-higher-education-mix.html?_r=0, last visited 2/28/2017
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MB said he once spoke with Larry Bird, President of Basketball Operations for the Indiana
Pacers.2 Theyre providing life-skills courses to their players. MB said the NBA sticks to
its 19-year-old rule3 because they dont want to baby-sit. The NBA would rather we
(universities) baby-sit. He also said hes noticed that sometimes when kids get a GIA,
theyve lost their desire to work hard as players.
4. MB discussed the likely effect on advertisers and television of intercollegiate athletics
becoming non-amateur.
MB mentioned a number of prominent successful (in fields other than athletics) people who
had been college athletes. These student-athletes, who went on to accomplish great things,
provide stories that connect people to colleges and universities, especially because these
people attribute so much to their experience as athletes in college. Consumer product
companies, he said, want to connect to these stories because it helps make for an attractive
brand.
5. MB discussed what would happen if athletes were being paid wages that differed from
athlete to athlete.
These differentials would raise a threshold issue. Many faculty boards and trustees would
rethink whether they would want to continue being involved in intercollegiate athletics.
Some people would begin to ask, Is this what we signed up for? or Do you think theyre
players or students?
MB believes differential wage payments would create dissension and arguments among
members of teams. There is a parallel in Olympic sports where you offer equivalencies.4
You get tension. Sometimes parents now come in and complain that their kid got more
points than another student-athlete but that their (scholarship) percentage is less than that
students.
6. MB discussed the term non-revenue sport.
He and his colleagues stopped using that term in 1993. When he was student-athlete in
swimming, he said we were 2nd class citizens, and he asked, rhetorically, why should any
student who is part of your brand be a second class citizen? Purdue had a woman golf
student win the NCAA golf championship in 2009. People knew her story.
The term Olympics Sports is better than non-revenue. The kids who play these sports
want to do compete in them. Theyre putting in a great deal of time and effort. Purdue
wants to treat them the same as other student-athletes, but calling their sports non-
revenue is derogatory.
2Larry Bird is a former Boston Celtics star. http://www.espn.com/espn/print?id=9426685, last visited

2/28/2017.
3Under NBA rules player is not eligible to be drafted unless he is at least 19 years old, and at least one year
has passed since he graduated from high school or would have graduated from high school.
http://basketball.about.com/od/nbadraft/a/nbaagelimit.htm, last visited 2/28/2017.
4An equivalency is a fraction of a full scholarship. In most sports other than mens football and basketball
and womens gymnastics, scholarship limits are expressed in terms of the number of equivalent full
scholarships. In so called equivalency sports many players receive only fractions of a full scholarship.
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7. MB discussed eligibility rules.

Whether issues are more likely to arise with academic or amateur status eligibility rules
depends on the sport. Tennis and golf are both played in an international environment, and
that leads to complexities with respect to amateurism that are not present in most other
sports.
In basketball, there are sometimes issues with camps where one doesnt always know
where the money is moving, and if money is going to parents. But for the most part,
amateurism is not the problem at Purdue that academic eligibility is.
At Purdue, according to MB, meeting NCAA standards for academic eligibility is not the
issue. Its Purdues academic standards. In order to admit a student athlete, the athletics
department has to convince admissions that this person has the chance to succeed as a
student. We do have remedial programs. We have a math guy whos here 24/7, and he
does what your Mom does around the kitchen table. We need remedial programs, not
because our incoming student-athletes are dumb, but because some of them have had bad
educations. Whether or not they succeed here depends on whether they have the desire to
work. MB said that the members of John Purdue Club5 want to see the whole product.
MB said that there are more scandals in intercollegiate athletics about academics, but you
also see cases involving extra benefits. By way of example he referred to a coach in
Mississippi who was (improperly) giving money to parents.
8. MB discussed the effect on other sports of basketball and football becoming
professionalized.
If this were to happen, sports like golf and wrestling would become club sports. You
wouldnt have the same level of services or structure for competition that you have in those
sports now. For kids who are really elite athletes in these sports, youd see the creation of
parallel clubs akin to what happens in Europe. This would affect the Olympic movement in
the United States. MB said that in the last Olympics, 416 out of 525 (US) Olympic athletes
were former NCAA athletes. The change would decimate the Olympic movement.
If Olympic sports became club sports without financial aid and funding, that would affect
the ability of student-athletes in those sports to attend college. Some of them wouldnt
enroll because their dream is to be an athlete, not a student. The Olympic sports would
leave the universities, and move to regional centers. MB believes that supporters of the
Olympic movement ought to be our biggest allies. Were training their players, and
covering expenses for their travel to trials.
9. MB discussed recruiting.
The pool of potential recruits is bigger than one might initially suppose. In sports like
swimming, potential recruits performance is easier to measure than in other sports. You
either get good times or you dont. In basketball, there are summer camps run by the AAU.
Over the summer kids from one place compete against kids from other places. They can be
compared. Assignment of rankings has become a cottage industry. In football, MB
5The John Purdue Club is responsible for raising 100 percent of the funds necessary to cover the tuition,
room and board, books and academic support costs of Purdue's more than 500 student athletes.
http://www.johnpurdueclub.com/s/1461/JPC/index.aspx?sid=1461&gid=1006&pgid=1372, last visited
3/2/2017. See also 20 below.
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contends, the situation is different, and a lot trickier. Trying to judge what a 16 or 17 year
old lineman is going to be like at 21 or 22 is difficult. MB said a football coach had told him
hes doing well if he can successfully predict which recruits will be able to compete in a 2
level rotation 60% of the time. At the top tier of Division I, the difference between winning
and losing is thin. In football, predicting the performance of recruits is a crapshoot. MB
said thats why he has advocated freshman ineligibility. In basketball its a little less
uncertain. But, still, what matters is whats in a players heart. Dakota Mathias is not a
great player but he is a great college player. [KGE: not sure what this means]
10. MB discussed increasing or decreasing the caps on the number of athletic scholarships
allowed for each sport.
If the limits were higher or lower, it would have a budgetary impact. MB showed KGE a
sheet entitled 2016-17 Boilermaker Benefits.6
MB believes universities have to do a better job of explaining what they provide to student-
athletes.
When the number of athletic scholarships for a football team went down from 120 to 85,
Purdue Athletics thought hard about what they needed to include in a scholarship to get a
full roster
11. MB discussed Walk Ons.
In football, Purdue generally has 10 or 15, perhaps as many as 20. Coaches sometimes have
preferred walk-ons, when they know someone is coming who intends to walk on and who
the coach thinks is promising. Some walk-ons successfully play their way on. Title IX is an
issue where walk-ons are concerned. A school with a womens rowing program would have
more room to take additional walk ons.
In Olympic sports you have equivalencies, so it costs less in those sports to elevate a walk-
on to, at least, a partial scholarship.
12. MB discussed the effect of athletics on the university budget.
About 1.5% of the athletics departments revenue is paid to the university as overhead.
When the leadership of the university wanted to have a building campaign on campus, the
athletics department invested $12 million in it.
Money donated to the athletics department is generally used for scholarships. Purdues
athletic scholarships cost about $12 million per year. The athletics department doesnt
quite raise that much, so some money is drawn from other sources to make up the rest.
Donations also go to facilities. People love to give for brick and mortar.
13. MB discussed baseball, and the effect that the existence of minor league professional
baseball has on the popularity and success of intercollegiate baseball.
MB explained that professional baseball has a rule that a high school player has to make a
decision in his senior year whether to go pro or wait until his college class would be juniors
6 See page 8 for a copy.
4
CONFIDENTIAL
before being able to play professionally.7 In baseball, if a kid leaving high school has his
heart set on being a pro, he has an alternative avenue (other than college) to do so.
MB doesnt think the development of physical skills after high school is as important in
baseball as it is in football, so you can tell who will be the best athletes earlier.
MB took issue with the suggestion that baseball generally isnt popular or successful at the
college level. He believes that from Virginia south, intercollegiate baseball does make
money, and its stadiums often are full. The problem with schools further north is when the
season starts. He said Purdue would like to play 16 games in the fall when the weather still
would be good, but other schools havent agreed. Some of the lack of interest in baseball at
schools further north could be a function of how the season is structured, which pushes
baseball games into cold weather.
14. MB discussed his role(s) in NCAA governance.
MB has served on a whole bunch of committees. Most recently MB was on the Leadership
Council. He also served as President of the Division I Athletic Directors Association and
assumed a very active role when Nathan Hatch was [Chair of the Division I Board of
Directors]. One of the goals MB had was to get more flexibility into the system. Thats
where autonomy comes in.8
Division I has 321 members with budgets ranging from $2 million to $150 million. In that
group its tough to get consensus.
In the late 60s, student-athletes were paid $85 per month for transportation and
miscellaneous expenses. In the late 60s, the definition of the GIA changed. MB said that he
believed we [universities] ought to be giving these kids full scholarships [full cost of
attendance]. A lot of us were agitating to do this.
MB said that NCAA governance is messy, but that it is no different than other important
organizations such as Congress. MB tried to carve out 3 or 4 areas like health and safety
and financial aid where consensus could be built. When it could, he said we brought the
demands forward.
MB believes that people chase Division I status for the basketball money, but its a very
costly business.
MB also believes some situations on campuses should be dealt with more rapidly.
MB and other school administrators are not compensated for time spent serving in NCAA
governance roles. That work is pro bono. There is no quid pro quo.
7This is similar to the NBAs 19 year old rule, which is sometimes associated with one and done student-
athletes, referring to basketball players who graduate from high school, play intercollegiate basketball for one
year, and then jump to the NBA. See also note 3.
8On August 7, 2014 the Board of Directors of NCAA Division I adopted a new governance structure for
Division I. The changes include more presidents on the board and added seats for a student-athlete, a faculty
representative, and athletics director, and a female administrator. The changes also allowed the Big 5
conferences (Atlantic Coast, Big 12, Big 10, PAC 12, and Southeastern) to change rules for themselves in a list
of specific areas. (NCAA, Board adopts new Division I structure,
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/mediacenter/news/boardadoptsnewdivisionistructure, last visited
3/3/2017.)
5
CONFIDENTIAL
15. MB identified four problems that he believes are facing intercollegiate athletics.
a. Plaintiffs attorneys, who are seeking money;
b. Congressional dysfunction, which he described as desire to parade people
through hearings;
c. The NCAAs governance system often responds with a lag; and
d. Public opinion of intercollegiate sports becoming cynical.
MB doesnt know where these four forces are going to collide. He thinks intercollegiate
athletics may want to rethink the decision it reached in the late 60s when college athletics
could have gotten an antitrust exemption.
16. MB discussed club sports.
Club sports at Purdue are not under his control. Under Red Macke, a former AD,9 the
Purdue AD had physical education and the recreation center under his control. That is not
true now. MB said, we work together, but I dont oversee them. We built the aquatic
center, and gave it to the campus. We do work together, [but] our facilities are pretty
separated. The only facilities that are shared are those for tennis, golf, and aquatics.
Athletics Directors at some other schools do manage club and recreational sports.
17. MB discussed his reasons for returning to university athletics (from a high position in
private industry).10
I came back because to me there is intrinsic value to this model [intercollegiate amateur
athletics] in America. You have a kid who is driven to succeed in athletics and academics.
There is synergy to that that makes them change makers. These kids know how to
compete. These kids are tough. People dont ask, What is the intrinsic value of athletics?
The whistle blows and you have to go. MB said that companies spend huge amounts on
team building, but thats one of the things student-athletes learn in the process of
competing.
18. MB discussed the effect of an across-the-board increase in the amount of money paid to
student-athletes.
MB said that before there were recruiting rules, thats what schools did, and it was as if
there was a black market. He contrasted that with the current system, which he described
by saying, Weve tied money and services to education. He said that if you wanted that
system, you should go pro. He said that doing so would create a little underground
system. We dont need to go back and recreate that world. He said the idea of paying
student-athletes more is not new, and in 1896 they were worried about rogue athletes.
9 MB said Purdue had only had 3 ADs since 1945.

10Before he came to Purdue as Athletics Director, MB spent 18 years working for the Inland Steel Company,
and was a Vice President when he left.
(http://www.cstv.com/printable/schools/pur/genrel/burke_morgan00.html? frame=bottom, last visited
1/26/2017.
6
CONFIDENTIAL
19. MB discussed the possibility of giving student-athletes benefits that didnt necessarily come
in the form of a check.
In his opinion, student-athletes already are provided with everything that they need to be
successful, which he described as the goal of financial aid to student-athletes. He said that
we [referring to schools] want to provide a level of support and services based on the time
demands of participating in intercollegiate athletics and being a student that meets what
student-athletes need to be successful academically and athletically.
MB believes that there is already some tension where the question of giving more to
student-athletes is concerned. He said that some schools are creeping back into that.
20. MB discussed the John Purdue Club.11
The John Purdue club is mostly alumni and they support the university and its athletic
programs. MB said that one can already see what the effect of changing the current model
of student-athletics would be on this group. If the model were changed to a more
professionalized version, the members of the John Purdue Club would cut back in their
giving and their level of interest in intercollegiate sports. They see how much were getting
from our media contracts and that the university is taking a cut, MB said. They ask him,
why are you asking us? Youve got money.
Member of the John Purdue Club would not like the money going into athletes pockets
beyond the cost of their attendance at Purdue. Some donors already are concerned about
the level of services Purdue provides its student-athletes. MB and his colleagues have to
explain why the services are appropriate. He believes that if he didnt have those
conversations, donors might act unilaterally and reduce the amount of money they give.
21. MB briefly discussed student-athletics and social mobility.
MB cannot think of one thing we do that allows people at one socioeconomic level to move
up to a higher level in a way that is comparable to intercollegiate athletics.
11 See note 5.
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2016-17 Boilermaker Benefits
8
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Morgan Burke-NCAA Interview Notes

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Case 4:14-md-02541-CW Document 616-8 Filed 04/14/17 Page 1 of 32

KGE Interview with Mitch Barnhart; AD, U of KY

3 Harvey Perlman (Chancellor, U. of Nebraska), Deposition, pp. 126-7.

organizations. Coaches watch the high school students in tournaments, z.B. a

c. MB discussed the effect of increasing (across Division I) the allowable

10http://www.ukathletics.com/sport/general/2016/roster/559d9894e4b01c7eefd642bc, last visited

iii. The development of Bill Battles Collegiate Licensing Company11

KGE Interview with Greg Fenves, President, U. of TX, 2/3/2017

1 See http://sportsleadership.utexas.edu/#front-page-1, last visited 2/3/2017.

sometimes students who were successful in athletics often were not

a. Qualitatively speaking, GF said when you have a successful season, it

KGE Interview with Keith Gill, 2/8/2017

As an example, KG described the universitys study abroad program for student-athletes,

3 Harvey Perlman Deposition, pp. 126-7.

KGE Interview with Nathan Hatch, President of Wake Forest

3 Deposition of Eugene Smith, pp. 37-8.

5 http://president.wfu.edu/about/, last visited 1/26/2017.

Cambridge, August 31, 1837, http://www.emersoncentral.com/amscholar.htm, last visited 2/20/2017

2Larry Bird is a former Boston Celtics star. http://www.espn.com/espn/print?id=9426685, last visited

7. MB discussed eligibility rules.

6 See page 8 for a copy.

9 MB said Purdue had only had 3 ADs since 1945.

2016-17 Boilermaker Benefits

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