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Static Equipment Group- Facebook

Edition : 1st

Posts Published from 2011 to 2013


Dear Friends,

This group is created to share experience and knowledge in static equipment field in year 2011.
This Ebook is attempt to bring all posts in one binder form.

For ease of reader we have segregated all posts in following categories.


- Design related Posts
- Material related posts
- Fabrication related posts
- Inspection related posts
- Testing related posts

I want to convey my gratitude to all group members for such nice discussions on all above
categorized topics. which has cleared most of the doubts and taught us new lesson.

Please note that the views expressed / exchanged in this group are members personel
views emerged from their relevant experience in this field and here it meant for educational
purposes only, Users / Readers must take their own decisions with respect to applicable
code /standard /contract documents.

Keep sharing. Keep learning.

Thanks.

- Static Equipment Group - Facebook (Administrator)


STATIC EQUIPMENT GROUP - DESIGN POSTS
Page 1 of 390

Hemant Solanki created the group.


Like Unfollow Post July 9, 2011 at 8:06pm
Rahul Shinde
Hi, its good . you created such group. sure it will help.
Like Follow Post Share July 9, 2011 at 8:26pm

Hemant Solanki
, :
column reactor ,
exchanger ,
combined stresses ,
anchor bolts ,

, ,

.

Hemant Solanki
As today is Vijayadashami.. Lets worship of these codes as it is source of our knowledge...
Happy Vijayadashami..

Like Unfollow Post Share October 24, 2012 at 1:20pm


Swapnil Deshmukh, Sujay Marwah, Amit Mohanty and 12 others like this.

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Purav Desai
On behalf of Group, I would like to thanks all group members for their valuable
participation in the group activity in the year 2012.

Static Equipment Group 2012 Rewind;

- Most members have joined the group.


- Fantastic participation by all members at an average 1 post per day.
- Many Live problems were discussed and concluded.
- All members were made aware with new developments in Code, new technology articles,
equipment specific articles.

I wish very happy and prosperous new year to all group members and request to utilize
this platform to its fullest.
Like Follow Post Share January 1 at 6:09am near Seoul, South Korea
Rohitash Singh Panwar, Krunal Solanky, Mrudang Mehta and 3 others like this.

Hemant Solanki
Wishing you all Happy New Year 2013.
2012 was full sharing year I can say. As explained by Purav Desai on his earlier post we
have discussed many new things in this forum.
This group has gained well known name within Indian counsaltancies (and probably
abroad consultancies) due to efforts of active members in this group.
As we all knows that 2013 is a year of code changes for ASME codes. So definitely within
this year we will come to know many more learning points as per ASME 2013 codes.
I want to request all of members here in this group to participate actively to enrich group
knowledge sharing.
Keep Learning. Keep Sharing.

Regards,
Hemant Solanki

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Like Unfollow Post Share January 1 at 11:38am


Mukesh K Prajapati, Sachin Pawar, Salman Hussain and 11 others like this.

Ramesh Tiwari Hemant and Purav, I am very proud of this group. Keep up the good work......January
4 at 11:25am Like

Purav Desai Thanks Mr. Ramesh Tiwari, for encouraging words....January 4 at 2:33pm Like

Madhusudhan Shetty Wishing everybody a very happy new year 2013, with more & more problems
and reviews....January 15 at 10:51pm Like

Mohamed Hussein
dear freind
What is the scope work of static equipment department?
Plz answer
Like Unfollow Post Share February 7, 2012 at 5:24pm via mobile
Hemant Solanki Static equipment is the one where there is no relative moving parts. In broad scope
we are designing unfired static equipment where there will be no direct firing inside equipment take
place just like in furnace or some of the boiler.
As per ASME our scope ends at the flange face of the nozzles which are attached to the equipment. For
detail scope refer U-2 requirements in ASME code where scope demarcation is cleared.
ASME states design scope. however as far as interfacing is concerned static equipment engineer should
have communication with all the concerned department so that any issues regarding fouling or clashing
or any other requirements from different departments shall be duly taken care in design and
engineering of equipment.February 7, 2012 at 6:53pm Like

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Hemant Solanki
This diagram may be useful for people who are not familiar with petroleum refining:

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Hemant Solanki
ASME Sec-VIII Div.1 Quick Reference

Purav Desai
Can anyone help me with the correct interpretation of UOP specifications no 3-11-5 cl.
3.6(c).

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Like Unfollow Post Share August 23, 2011 at 11:20am via mobile

Hemant Solanki clause is "Either an integrally reinforced nozzle or balanced integral reinforcement in
both the nozzle neck and vessel is required for hydrogen service and is preferred for all services.What I
understand from above clause is that balanced integral reinforcement is lip type forged nozzle as in
hydrogen service 100% radiography requirement persist so only with lip type construction we can able
to achieve it. Still I am not clear. If any body have different view please share.August 27, 2011 at
7:29pm Like

Manish Shukla What I interpret from the clause is as under:


1. Balanced Integral Reinforced Nozzle means Lip type only. And we have to consider Area A1 (which
resides in the Lip).
2. Because there is Hydrogen Service, client feels that the hardness would/may/might occur @ weld
junction. To be on safer side, client has written this clause. If the vendor is OK and takes the guarantee
of hardness (after PWHT) would be under allowable limit (i.e. 220 BHN) then Lip type is not
necessary.September 7, 2011 at 7:08pm Like

Hemant Solanki Manish,


Regarding your 1st point I have doubt that Area A1 according to UG-37 is the area available under shell
section. any how we are taking its advantage in reinforcement calculation. it is correct that on lip area
thickness will be slightly higher than connecting shell as it is forged material but it will not affect more
to reinforcement calculation.
Your second point is correct. If by any means we are able to control hardness than no need to perform
PWHT at that weld junction. But Hydrogen service is lethal in nature. Its small amount is also injurious
so 100% radiography with lip type construction is preferable because with lip type only we will get butt
weld at nozzle to shell junction & on butt weld we can easily carry out radiography. which is difficult in
other types.September 8, 2011 at 7:20pm Like

Hemant Solanki
Can anybody share their views on Pressure Thrust consideration in local load analysis.
When we should consider it in local load analysis??
Like Unfollow Post Share October 4, 2011 at 7:46pm

Purav Desai Hi, i would like to share my view:


when there is sudden change in flow direction nearby nozzle, it causes thrust (force)of the amount
internal pressure * nozzle c/s at the junction. Pvelite Code Calc does the same thing when you click
pressure thrust tab. There is a separate wrc 368 for it. But coming to our industry, we generally go for
smooth transitions (LR elbows) and that eliminates the thrust at junction. October 7, 2011 at
1:06am Like

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Hemant Solanki
ASME SUSPENDS ADDENDA SERVICE AND MODIFIES PUBLICATION CYCLE : (As per HSB
news letter- issue Jan-2011)
On November 16, 2009, the ASME Standards and Certification Board of Directors voted to
eliminate the addenda service for the ASME Boiler and Pressure VesselCode. At the time
this decision was made, it was yetundecided whether the publication cycle would remain
athree year cycle or something different. The decision wasmade to reduce the publication
cycle to two years sincemany people felt that anything longer than that would betoo long
a delay in getting important technical revisionspublished.
The implementation of this new two-year publicationcycle will take place over the next
three years with thepublishing of the 2010 Edition on July 2010 as normal.An addenda will
be issued for this edition in July 2011,and then the next publication will be the 2013
Edition.The addenda that will be issued in July 2011 will be acomplete reprinting of all the
boiler code sections utilizing ASME's new XML publishing system. This will alsobe the last
addenda issued for the boiler code. With the2013 Edition and beyond, the boiler code will
then bepublished on a two-year cycle. According to ASME,steps have been taken to
ensure that the annualized costto purchasers of the new two-year editions will notexceed
the annualized cost when published on a threeyear cycle.

Manish Shukla Question) Does anybody know how to design "Tangential Rectangular
Nozzle on Cylindrical Shell"? November 8, 2011 at 2:55am Like
Hemant Solanki Dear, I do not know about how to design its neck thickness. But as per UG-37 you
can design it's reinforcement. you have to find out it's hypotenuse length which is maximum opening
length for rectangular openings and consider it as opening dia 'd' in UG-37 formulas.

Avinash Araj
There are 2 types of expansion bellows used in Exchangers: Thin type and Thick
type(FLange and flued). Is there any criteria for selecting type of bellows from
above?
Like Unfollow Post Share October 26, 2011 at 3:12pm

Hemant Solanki Purav, can you please revert on above query.October 30, 2011 at 7:24pm Like

Hemant Solanki First choice would be TEMA thick bellow which is cheap & conventional but very high
shell side & tube side temperature difference results in more number of convolutes which is difficult to
design & practically difficult to fabricate in such cases thin bellows are considered.
- Courtesy : Mr. Purav Desai. November 11, 2011 at 7:24pm Like

Mrudang Mehta hi... to ur answer to types of bellows... thin bellows... are made of exotic material
like Inconel.. so that the thickness is less.... they are designed per EJMA... while thick bellow.. as rightly
pointed can be design as per TEMA.. and are of same MOC as the shell of HX.. think bellows are used
mostly in pipes.. and also in the explansion joint on the nozzle of single pass floating type HX.. there is
no selection criteria.. as such..November 12, 2011 at 8:55pm Like

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Rajendra Sharma
Friends please explain what is the interpretation of 'nozzle shell flexibility shall
not be taken into account' is it related to WRC107 &297 or Regarding piping
assumption.
Like Unfollow Post Share September 16, 2011 at 7:55pm via mobile

Ankur Gupta it means the loads coming on nozzle face (such as piping loads)shall be 100%
transferrred to nozle to shell junction..no loads shall be absorbded becoz of flexibilty of nozzle shell.

September 16, 2011 at 11:13pm Like

Purav Desai to add further when piping stress engineer does the analysis, they should treat nozzle
shell as rigid.

September 17, 2011 at 1:51pm via mobile Like

Mrudang Mehta agress

November 12, 2011 at 9:00pm Like

Mrudang Mehta agree to both above replies...

November 12, 2011 at 9:01pm Like

Hemant Solanki
May a raised face blind flange confirming to a flange standard referenced in
UG-34 (c) (1) and having a corrosion resistant overlay welded to its interior
face in such a manner that the final dimensions of the base material comply
with the respective standard, be used at the pressure-temperature ratings in
the respective standards, without additional design calculations ?
Views on above query is highly appreciable.
Like Unfollow Post Share November 19, 2011 at 7:18pm

Rajendra Sharma likes this.

Rajendra Sharma In this case there should not be any undercut which means there should not any
reduction in thickness of flange for overlay cladding however Shell alows this under cut as per standard
drawing, but many client not allows this and ask for the calculation as per ap. 2. November 26, 2011 at
7:09pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki In above query undercut is there. but after undercut the available thickness is same
as standard flange thickness. So in that case calculation is not required.
However if this available thickness after undercut is less than standard flange thickness than it may
violate pressure- temperature rating for which this flange is meant that's why calculation is required.

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But as Rajendra has said above it also depends on client. If client asks to perform the same than it is
required. November 27, 2011 at 10:13am Like 1

Rajendra Sharma yes ..in our ongoing project client has clearly mentioned that in case of undercut in
the flange we have to submit the calculation forall the flanges,though the thickness in aceptable limit of
atandard flange. November 27, 2011 at 2:21pm Like

Hemant Solanki Rajendra, if we are providing thickness after undercut equal to standard flange
thickness than i think it is not required to submit calculation. But client may think that if we change any
of the dimension of standard flange than that flange will be not applicable to that pressure-temperature
rating. November 30, 2011 at 7:23pm Like

Purav Desai
What are the best possible ways to control deflection of self supporting
column?
Like Unfollow Post Share October 9, 2011 at 10:56am

Hemant Solanki If you go through any of the PMC specifications (EIL or Toyo) they had given
following solution.
1. First of all increase skirt thickness such that the deflection get in limit. Now you can increase skirt
thickness to maximum upto adjacent shell thickness after that if you again want to increase skirt
thickness then you have to first increase that adjacent shell thickness.
2. If above method do not work then flare the skirt such that deflection get within limit. You can flare
the skirt to maximum 7. Flaring of skirt is also useful if diameter is less & due to which we have
limited BCD to occupy number of bolts. Flaring of skirt will increase the BCD so that we can increase
the number of bolts.
3. Some time in case of less diameter & more height columns, guided structure is preferred. Guiding
shoe is provided at certain height of column to limit the deflection.

October 9, 2011 at 11:14am Like 1

Mrudang Mehta dear... just go through the Design Basis of EIL.. they have explained the procedure...
it is same as explained by Hemant.. if u want i can forward u the same..

October 10, 2011 at 1:24am Like 1

Manish Shukla In the most extreme case, add Helical Strakes as is used in tall stacks. For more info,
refer 5.3.1 of ASME STS-1 2006

December 9, 2011 at 8:37am Like

Hemant Solanki Because we always try to match OD or mean diameter of shell and skirt. If skirt
thickness is more and we try to match it with small thick shell outer diameter or mean diameter then
there will be offset of thickness between shell and skirt thickness which will creat eccentricity and
whatever circumferential and longitudinal forces will come it will creat more stress at skirt to shell
junction due to this eccentricity. which results into increase in stress at shell to skirt junction. in order
to avoid this situation we limit skirt thickness max upto connecting shell thickness. and to increase shell
thickness we have to first increase thickness of connecting shell.

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December 10, 2011 at 10:25am Like

Vishal Patil There some options:-

December 12, 2011 at 5:36pm Like

Vishal Patil 1> Check with civil for guide support if you have a structure around column, this is the
simplest way to control deflection if you have structure. But check deflection of structure too. 2>
Gradually increase the thickness of column from bottom to top, increasing the thickness of skirt is not
enough. If you have conical section in between increase thickness of first shell above cone. This is
iterative section of design, one has to try lots of iteration before finding the optimized solution.

December 12, 2011 at 5:41pm Like

Vishal Patil And for wind deflection you can use helical strakes at 1/3 height of column at top. But
analysis can not be done by normal software. December 12, 2011 at 5:43pm Like

Purav Desai
hi group members, come to know very good point in 2010 edition of ASME code. Now we
can use 1-10 rules in lieu of UG37 for reinforcement calculation under internal pressure.
This is really helpful and save lot of material.
Like Unfollow Post Share December 17, 2011 at 5:34pm via mobile

Manish Shukla likes this.

Hemant Solanki According to code When these rules are used, the requirements UG-40 (Limits of
reinforcement) and UG-42 (Multiple opening reinforcement) are not applicable. Likewise, the weld
strength requirements of UG-41 shall be satisfied by U-2(g). Does it call for FEA ? December 17, 2011
at 6:37pm Like

Hemant Solanki
Came to know very good learning today.
Whenever we use welded pipes in ASME formula do not put joint efficiency E=0.85
because as per ASME Sec-IID Table 1.100 where basis for allowable stress is given for
welded pipe ASME has given allowable stress as 0.85*S/3.5. where this 0.85 factor is
nothing but considering welded pipe with spot radiography.
Ramesh Prabhu Dear Hemant,
Please put in all efforts to confim this. Please write to ASME Board if necessary.
Speak to me on this issue when possible.
My professional email id is rameshnp1453@gmail.com
Regards,
Ramesh N. Prabhu
Hemant Solanki Sir,
I have tried to find out what is 0.85 in above basis. I have oldest edition upto 2001 but there also the
above basis is mentioned. I have also tried to search in interpretations but there is also no such query
is raised. I have interpreted it as joint efficiency as it is written welded pipe & with taking 0.85 as joint

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efficiency ASME formula thickness which we will achieve will be higher.


Still I am searching for its basis. If it does not get clear we can raise its interpretation request to ASME.
If you have information on this issue please share.
Hemant Solanki Today I have gone through Casti guide book of Section VIII-Div.1 where it is written
that the allowable stress values in Section II for welded pipe or tubes have been adjusted downward
because of the weld.The code allowable stress values for welded pipe or tubes are 85% of the values
for the seamless counterparts.
This again reveal that 0.85 factor is nothing but considering welded pipe with spot radiography.

Hemant Solanki
I came across quote as mentioned below,
"Flange rigidity can also be considered for all flange types except Blind, Reverse, and
flange to dished covers."
I want to know how rigidity can be ignored for flange directly welded to dished covers
(with SF) ?
Like Unfollow Post Share December 24, 2011 at 7:16pm
Purav Desai Dear hemant;

First of all one basic point is flange flange must be rigid enough to minimise its rotation due to attached
cylinder during operation and test condition.

Now for your doubt, i understand that straight face is normally of 50 mm and hence will results in
minimum flange rotation. Hence it can be ignored.

Another good point is rigidity shall be calculated only for those flanges which are connected to
cylinder/pipe.

December 24, 2011 at 9:31pm via mobile Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Addendum-3 of IS-875 has been released.
In this new addendum IS has introduced cyclonic wind pressure to account effects of
cyclones on structures. As we know now a days coastal areas are likely have threat of
cyclones so this new phenomenon is introduced in IS-875. According to this code
wherever coastal area is under cyclonic zone, it's effect would be seen up to 60 KM from
coastal area. So whatever structures comes under this 60 KM should be designed
accordingly to withstand cyclonic wind pressure. They have introduced some terms to take
in account cyclonic wind pressure. For detailed information we have to go through this
latest code in detail.
Like Unfollow Post Share January 28, 2012 at 11:11am

Hemant Solanki
CE Marking
CE is an acronym for the French phrase "Conformite Europeene" and is similar to the UL
or CSA marks of North America. Unlike UL or CSA which require independent laboratory
testing, the CE mark can be applied by the manufacturer through a "self certifying"
procedure that verify that products are designed to the appropriate standards.

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The European Union has issued 24 directives related to the CE mark.

Before manufacturers and exporters can CE-mark their products and legally sell them to,
or within, the European common market, they must be in compliance with the applicable
CE Marking Directive.

The CE mark states that the manufacturer complies the product to be within applicable EU
directives.
Note! The CE Marking is not a safety mark and must not be confused with a certificate. CE
marking will never be granted by a third party test house or a certification body.1)
The manufacturer is responsible for non-compliance and liable for any damage caused by
the product. If the manufacturer (or his authorized representative) is not based within the
EU, the importer is responsible for the product in Europe.
If a product is not in compliance with the directives, it may be restricted, prohibited from
sale or even withdrawn from the market.
1) Be aware that this is not always true. It depends entirely on which European Directive
the CE-marked product has to comply with. For example the pressure equipment directive
# 97/23/CE requires a 3rd party ("notified body") for some products that have specific
pressure & dimensional characteristics (that are specified in the directive), so you are not
allowed to apply the CE mark (i.e. you can't sell your products & issue the CE certificate) if
no notified body has approved your design/quality/manufacturing documents.

Read more: http://www.egpet.net/vb/threads/52519-CE-Marking#ixzz1l8lVJJCq


Like Unfollow Post Share February 1, 2012 at 6:57pm

Rahul Valand
dear frnd...
I have one basic questn..pls help me out..
as per UG 28 ,why we are coonsidering H/3 of head depth as unstiffened length of
cylinder.....why not H/2.5 or H/3.1????
Like Unfollow Post Share February 7, 2012 at 3:19pm via mobile
Hemant Solanki For this query I gone through Code case-2286. In this code case there is one figure
where unsupported length L is shown. On dish end area they showed one line which they call as
bulkhead line and that line is represented at h/3 distance from TL.
What I understand is, this line is a line where knuckle to crown portion get separated. Actually if we
assume behaviour of knuckle and crown in external pressure it will be different. Knuckle portion will get
more pressure from its side however crown portion will get more portion from top side of head. Due to
this effect knuckle portion is considered as same behaviour as that of attached shell and that's why
while calculating unsupported length available on shell we consider knuckle portion also under it and
that's why unsupported length extends up to h/3.
Still I have not find out the exact reason why the 1/3 of h is considered. I will let you know if I come
across any other information regarding thisFebruary 9, 2012 at 6:57pm Like

Rahul Valand thanks hemant..February 10, 2012 at 10:04am via mobile Like

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Purav Desai
Hi Members,
What will happen if we insulate Plate Heat Exchanger?
Like Unfollow Post Share February 17, 2012 at 10:32am
Chetan Patel pb, no need of ins. In plt . Exch as in case of this heat loss is tertiary ( fluid to gasket to
plate to air) which is very less. but one should provide personal protection to this type of
exchanger.February 17, 2012 at 12:15pm Like 1

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Hi everone...
Do anyone have article or any other information on packinox heat exchanger. ...
Like Unfollow Post Share February 18, 2012 at 10:18am nearBaroda, Gujarat
Purav Desai Are bhai refer to the papers/datasheets/file, i have handed over to you when i left. It has
many information regarding packinox. Refer to saunders book for some basic information.

February 18, 2012 at 3:43pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar I have read that sirji....bus thoda doubt hai....that the recycle gas which is
filled in pressure vessel is not play any role in heat transfer....it is to just keep the bundle in
compression....so that bundle will not buckle.....is my understanding is correct....please guide me...

February 18, 2012 at 8:08pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Yes u are right but the other purpose of this recycle gas is;, this recycle gas is nothing
but the hydrocarbon rich gas sent back by recyle gas compressor. Recycle gas mixes with the fresh
feed enters thru nozzle M1/M2 (N1/N2) and make a combined cold fluid inlet.

February 19, 2012 at 10:37am Like

Purav Desai and again this heated feed will go to heater & cycle goes on.

February 19, 2012 at 10:40am Like

Mrudang Mehta Puravbhai.. taame to process engineer thai gaya ne.. nice reply..

February 24, 2012 at 7:02am Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Dear friends
I have one query regarding checking of nozzle flange rating during hydrotest.
We have one vessel where nozzle flange rating is 600# and hydrotest pressure is1.3 times
MAP......so whether we have to check the flange rating for hyfrotest condition also...or no
need to check?????
Please suggest...urgent...
Purav Desai Dear Singh, As per me no need to check nozzle flange rating for hydro test condition
because this 1.3 x MAP will never occur when equipment is in operation (as MAP is new & cold
condition). Hydro test is temporary. We are checking the gasketed joint of flange using temporary

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blind, actual piping is not attached. It is required to check flange rating for MAWP but not for hydro test
case 1.3xMAP. Please correct me if something is missing.
March 2, 2012 at 4:39pm Like

Hemant Nikam Refer ansi b 16.5 cl. for standard flange hydrotest is carried out at 1.5 times of design
pr.
Hemant Solanki Yes Mr. Nikam is right. As per 16.5 standard all standard flanges are designed to
withstand 1.5 times the rating pressure irrespective of design pressure for which they are selected. e.g.
if according to your design pressure and temperature 150# flange is selected than that flange is
already checked for 1.5X 150# pressure.
March 3, 2012 at 5:44pm Like 2
Krishna Desai Dear Hemant, totally agree....this conditions normally occure when hydrtest required
as per UG-99 (C) and with low flange rating....
March 5, 2012 at 8:47pm Like 1

Chetan Patel
Dear friends, in Div. 1 section ug -32 (e) for torispherical head with ts/L>= 0.0002 it is
written that " Torispherical heads made of materials having a specified
minimum tensile strength exceeding 70,000 psi (500 MPa)
shall be designed using a value of S equal to 20,000 psi
(150 MPa) at room temperature and reduced in proportion
to the reduction in maximum allowable stress values at
temperature for the material " .
Now my concern is here ASME is limiting us to use allowable stress as 20000 PSI
eventhough it is higher as per Sec. IID.
Is there any dishend forming limitation for dishend with higher tensile strength ?
or
is there any limitation of this equation for higher allowable stress ?

Please share your knowledge


Like Unfollow Post Share March 19, 2012 at 6:02pm
Avinash Araj very good observation, chetan. I think code has included this requirement only in the
case of torispherical heads. this is because of large number of failures related to these type of heads.
There is also a code case related to this. I dont remember the code case number.

March 19, 2012 at 8:44pm Like

Avinash Araj I think code is limiting the allowable stress so that these type dont deform above certain
limit specified.

March 19, 2012 at 8:46pm Like

Avinash Araj This is just an additional safety factor only in the case of toriheads

March 19, 2012 at 8:47pm Like

Mrudang Mehta See the concept is just to keep minimum thickness of torispherical head to be a
value not less a certain value even though u use a higher grade material
mjmehta81: Stress in the knuckle radius is concern and so that thickness of knuckle does not go very

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low.. It is a sort of binding where for even going to higher grade material, the thickness shall be near
to CS Gr. 70 MOC.

March 20, 2012 at 7:30am Like 1

Air-cooled heat exchangers- Source- egpet.net

Hemant Solanki, Vijay Chaudhary and Deepak Garg in Static Equipment Group (Files) Edit Doc Delete

Air-cooled heat exchangers

Purpose
The purpose of this article is to provide some general information on air-cooled heat exchangers and
answer some of the commonly heard questions. This is a mixture of fact and opinion. Wherever the
opinion is obvious to me, I have attempted to show it by use of Italics.

Why use an air-cooled heat exchanger?


Air-cooled heat exchangers are generally used where a process system generates heat which must be
removed, but for which there is no local use. A good example is the radiator in your car. The engine
components must be cooled to keep them from overheating due to friction and the combustion
process. The water/glycol coolant mixture carries the excess heat away. A small amount of the excess
heat may be used by the car's radiator to heat the interior. Most of the heat must be dissipated
somehow. One of the simplest ways is to use the ambient air. Air-cooled heat exchangers (often simply
called air-coolers) do not require any cooling water from a cooling tower. They are usually used when
the outlet temperature is more than about 20 deg. F above the maximum expected ambient air
temperature. They can be used with closer approach temperatures, but often become expensive
compared to a combination of a cooling tower and a water-cooled exchanger.

How are they constructed?

Typically, an air-cooled exchanger for process use consists of a finned-tube bundle with rectangular box
headers on both ends of the tubes. One or more fans provide cooling air. Usually, the air blows
upwards through a horizontal tube bundle. The fans can be either forced or induced draft, depending
on whether the air is pushed or pulled through the tube bundle. The space between the fan(s) and the
tube bundle is enclosed by a plenum chamber, which directs the air. The whole assembly is usually
mounted on legs or a piperack. The fans are usually driven be electric motors through some type of
speed reducer. The speed reducers are usually V-belts, HTD drives, or right angle gears. The fan drive
assembly is supported by a steel mechanical drive support system. They usually include a vibration
switch on each fan to automatically shut down a fan, which has become imbalanced for some reason.

What standards are used for Air-Cooled Exchangers?

First, almost all air coolers are built to Sec VIII of the ASME Code, since they are pressure vessels. For
refinery and petrochemical services most customers include API 661 (Air-Cooled Heat Exchangers
for General Refinery Service) in their specifications. This API specification is very good since it
includes all the necessary information to properly specify a cooler and provides for a high level of

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minimum quality in the design and fabrication of the cooler. In the back it has a very good checklist
where a customer can decide exactly what type of construction is needed and what options are
important. These include such items as galvanizing versus painting, types of headers, maintenance
walkways and platforms, controls, and external loads on the cooler. The following details refer mostly
to the API specifications.

What kinds of finned tubes are used?

The tubes can be of virtually any material available, such as carbon steel, stainless steel, Admiralty
brass, or more exotic alloys. The minimum preferred outside diameter is one inch. Some manufacturers
sometimes use smaller tubes, but most of the process coolers have tubes, which are 1.0", 1.25", or
1.5" OD. The minimum tube wall thickness varies with the material. In some cases the design pressure
and design temperature of the exchanger govern the minimum thickness.
The fins are almost always of aluminum material. The most common type of fin is the helical wrapped,
L-footed type. These are used where the process temperatures are below about 350 deg. F. The API
specification calls for cast zinc bands at the ends of the tubes to prevent the fins from unwrapping.
Some of the better manufacturers also use cast zinc bands at the tube supports. For higher process
temperatures, most customers prefer either embedded or extruded fins. The embedded fins have the
highest temperature capabilities. They are made by a process, which cuts a helical groove in the OD of
the tube, wraps the fin into the groove, and then rolls the upset metal from the tube back against the
fin to lock it into place. The tube wall must be thicker with embedded fins because of the groove.
In some applications customers often prefer extruded fins. Extruded fins are made by putting an
aluminum sleeve (sometimes called a muff) over the tube, then passing the tube through a machine,
which has rollers, which squish the aluminum out to form fins. The process is similar to a thread-rolling
machine. The end result is a fin, which has extremely good contact with the tube, and no crevices to
allow corrosion to start on the tube OD. Extruded fins are often used in coastal locations or on offshore
platforms for this reason.
Some manufacturers make some rather startling claims for their "special" finned tubes. These
modifications usually involve some kind of wrinkles or cuts in the fins to enhance air turbulence. We
believe this to be untrue. The cost of this extra turbulence is increased static pressure for the fan(s) to
overcome. These claims are sometimes just too fantastic to be considered seriously.

What are headers?


Headers are the boxes at the ends of the tubes, which distribute the fluid from the piping to the tubes.

How are headers constructed?

Almost all headers on air-cooled exchangers are welded rectangular boxes. A vast majority of the
headers are of the plug type. This means that there is a shoulder plug opposite each tube, which allows
access for inspection and cleaning of individual tubes. They can also be used to plug a leaking tube.
The plugholes are used in the manufacturing process for accesses to roller expand the tubes into the
headers.
The other common type of header is the cover plate or bonnet type. These are usually used in low-
pressure applications (say below 150 PSIG) where complete tube access is desired. This usually means
applications where fouling is a potential problem and the tube bundle may require occasional internal
cleaning. As the name implies, these have a removable plate on the backside of the header opposite

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the tubes. The cover plate is attached to the header by a set of studs or through-bolts to a flange
around the perimeter of the header. A bonnet header is similar, but opposite in construction. The whole
header or bonnet bolts to the tubesheet and comes off. Bonnet headers are sometimes used where the
corrosion potential of the process fluid is very high and the tubesheet material is some kind of
expensive exotic alloy, such as titanium.
Headers are usually constructed of carbon steel or stainless steel, but sometimes more exotic alloys are
used for corrosion resistance. The customer usually makes the selection of materials.

Why are some coolers forced draft and some induced draft? Which is better?

It depends. The majority of air-cooled exchangers are of forced draft construction. Forced draft units
are easier to manufacture and to maintain. The tube bundle is mounted on top of the plenum, so it can
be easily removed and replaced. The fan shaft is short, since it does not have to extent from the drive
unit through the tube bundle and plenum to the fan, as in an induced draft design. Forced draft units
require slightly less horsepower since the fan are moving a lower volume of air at the inlet than they
would at the outlet. If the process fluid is very hot, the cooling air is hot at the outlet. This could cause
problems with some fans or fan pitch actuators if the fan is exposed to very hot exhaust air. Since
forced draft coolers do not have the fans exposed to hot exhaust air, they are a better choice in such
cases. (API 661 paragraph 4.2.3.15&16 offer some guidelines for this.)

However, induced draft units have some advantages too. A common problem with forced draft coolers
is accidental warm air recirculation. This happens when the hot exhaust air is pulled back in to the fans.
Since a forced draft cooler has a low air velocity at the exhaust from the bundle and a high velocity
through the fan, a low-pressure area is created around the fan, causing the hot air to be pulled over
the side or end of the bay. For this same reason, there should never be a small space between the
bays of a bank of forced-draft cooler. Induced draft cooler have a high exhaust air velocity through the
top-mounted fan, and a lower velocity into the face of the tube bundle below. This tends to minimize
the probability of accidental air recirculation. Also an induced draft plenum does not have to support
the tube bundle so some weight can often be saved in this area.

Painted or Galvanized?

This is usually a matter of customer preference. However, the costs are roughly the same if a multiple
coat paint system is specified. Often the painted units are more expensive. There seems to be a trend
toward more galvanized structures because they require virtually no maintenance. Painted structures
require touch-up after installation and they often rust anyway.

We recommend galvanized units wherever possible.

Plenums, dispersion angle, and fan coverage:

The API specification includes a number of paragraphs about fan coverage and dispersion angle. This is
for a very good reason. The actual air coming from a fan does not distribute itself evenly at first. The

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most airflow is seen around the fan tip area. If you measure the airflow across the face of a tube
bundle, it is often very different around the fan blade tip as opposed to the center of the fan or the
corner of the bundle. However, as the plenum becomes deeper, this localized effect is diminished as
the air becomes more evenly distributed. All of the heat transfer programs assume that the air is
distributed perfectly evenly.

The fan coverage is the ratio of the fan area to the bundle face area. The higher this ratio is, then the
better the fan coverage will be. The API minimum is 40% with a 45-degree maximum dispersion angle
from the fan ring to the middle of the tube bundle at the middle of the sides or the middle of the ends
of each fan chamber. More fan coverage or a lower dispersion angle can improve the air distribution.
(See Figure 6 on Page 14 of API 661for a sketch of this.)

A few manufacturers actually improve on this idea one step more, by using rounded and eased fan
rings. Rounded and eased rings offer two advantages compared to the conventional fan rings. First,
they enhance the distribution of the air. Secondly, they reduce the air pressure drop through the fan
ring, slightly reducing the fan brake horsepower. When designing their coolers, some cooler
manufacturers base their fan designs on the use of rounded and eased rings, even though they don't
build them this way.

What kinds of controls are used?


As one might expect the best kind of control scheme depends on the application. Does the process
require a very tight control on the process outlet temperature, or is it better to allow the process
temperature to go down with the ambient air temperature? Is there a possibility of freezing the
process? Is there a pour-point problem? Is the cost of operating the fan motors a significant factor?
The following is a list of some of the commonly used control devices for air coolers, but in no particular
order.
1. Manually operated louvers.
2. Electrically or pneumatically operated louvers.
3. Pneumatically actuated automatic variable-pitch fans.
4. Variable-frequency fan drives.
5. Warm-air recirculation systems for freezing/pour point control in cold climates.
6. Steam coils.

Like Unfollow Post Report January 13, 2012 at 3:43pm


Umesh Katare likes this.

Arpita Shah Realy very intresting. thanx for sharing the knowledge.March 21, 2012 at
9:37pm via mobile Like

Arpita Shah
Why tank staircase is spiral instead of straight?
Satvik Patel 1. Spiral staircase is more comfertable to climb than straight.
2. In tall tanks spiral may be use to avoid vortex shedding due to wind.
March 24, 2012 at 7:16am via mobile Like
Hemant Nikam Tanks height is more than 10 mtr it is difficult to go up by using straight staircase,as
you may observe in buildings one breakup is between one floor,angle of ladder,staircase is very

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imporatant to walk/go up person may be tired while going up and for tanks to maintain the angle as 30
degree more space along the one side of tank is required.
Mihir Jha Long Columns have the straight ladder and platform only because we can't provide spiral
stairway due to small dia. of column with respect to Tank. Height is not a criteria for selecting the spiral
or straight.
March 25, 2012 at 8:30am Like
Manoj Nandwalkar in tank case, thickness is very low.hence to avoid stress concentration in same
orientation,it is always distributed circumferential.
March 25, 2012 at 6:50pm Like
Mitul Patel
Why we straddle bolt holes from the centre line in flange and foundation.what can be
possible reason.
Hemant Solanki Straddle the bolt holes are internationally accepted procedure which are following by
every consultancies world wide. This is decided so that there will be no mismatch between vessel
nozzle flange and connecting piping flange bolt holes. if this procedure is not followed then there is
always chance of mismatch between mating flanges bolt holes.and in order to avoid that you should
always indicate in which orientation your flange bolt holes comes. which is very difficult and clumsy
work.
Also maintenance point of view to handle straddle bolts are easy as compared to bolts which are in line
with axis. because with straddle bolts you will get more space to move ratchet or spanner.
March 22, 2012 at 7:54pm Like
Ruby Sahu also it is somehow related to reaction forces and moments..i do nt know much about
this....if any body has any idea then pls share....
March 22, 2012 at 8:10pm Like
Vuppala Gopinath TO AVOID CORROSION OF BOLT DUE TO LEAKAGE.THIS WOULD BE OBSERVED
IF THE BOLTS R AT D LOWEST POINT THAT IS AT THE VERTICAL AXIS.
&
TO AVOID STRESS DUE 2 GRAVITY ON SINGLE BOLT.THAT IS 2 DIVIDE D STRESS IN 2 BOLTS
INSTEAD OF 1 BOLT
March 22, 2012 at 8:26pm via mobile Like 4
Hemant Nikam This is the standard practice because of physical
Tighenting of bolts when the piping flanges,foundations comes infront of structure,wall.
Satvik Patel it is international practice in piping to make similar everywhere
March 23, 2012 at 1:24pm Like
Chetan Patel in case of flange its convenience to operate spanner with straddle bolting. and in case of
anchor bolt to avoide operator interface with access path as access way are provided at 0,90,180 &
270.
March 27, 2012 at 6:04pm Like 1
Arpita Shah
the rules in app. EE of asme for half pipe jackets are given only for two condition.
1. there is positive pr. inside shel or head.
2. there is positive pr. inside the half pipe jacket.
but if we apply negative pr. at shell side. how to find out the required thk. of shell sustain
that pr.?
Like Unfollow Post Share March 28, 2012 at 8:43am via mobile
Satvik Patel In app. EE (EE-2) refers to UG-21in defination of P, where it is mentioned kindly refer it
for more detail.March 28, 2012 at 10:52am Like

Satvik Patel And Vessel inside nagative pressure acts as external pressure, so we can add that
pressure in Internal design pressure of Half pipe PV-Elite also does in same way.March 28, 2012 at
10:55am Like

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Arpita Shah I m taking about at shell side negative pr.March 28, 2012 at 3:13pm via mobile Like

Satvik Patel that is same, shell side nagative pressure means you have external pressure on shell and
that have to be added in design pressure of half pipeMarch 28, 2012 at 4:25pm via mobile Like

Vishal Patil There are two different aspects to this:- 1> In which situation the vessel is going to
encounter the full vacuum (ext pressure), if the process can define that the external pressure occurs
only in maintenance time i.e. steam out condition then there are rare chances that the half pipe
containing the positive pressure. Before adding the internal pressure of half pipe in external pressure of
vessel this must be addressed otherwise will cause bulky design. 2>If the vacuum is operating
condition, then one can take this approach of addition of pressure. My opinion is, take this issue with
your seniors, because there is another aspect that actually limpet coil (half pipe) is indirectly adding the
moment of inertia of you shell which is having considerably higher than single MI of the shell. Which is
reducing the chances of the bucking of vessel. check
linkhttp://www.krrao.com/images/Chapter_51_pp285-308_KRs_Notations_per_NASH_UPDATES_of_3-
26-08.pdf..March 28, 2012 at 8:30pm Like

Vishal Patil Preferably check PD 5500 and EN 13445 will get idea of thisMarch 28, 2012 at
8:30pm Like

Arpita Shah
can we increase the shell thickness to avoid r.f.pad in jacketed vessel ?
Satvik Patel yes,increase in shell thk. increases available area.
March 22, 2012 at 7:55am via mobile Like
Hemant Nikam Yes you have to maintain the area required . And one thing do not increase overall
shell course thickness if diameter is larger than 1 mtr.you can provide insert plate of higher thickness
than the main shell refer code.if smaller dia. You can use shell band ,this we used in shell and tube
heat exchangers.
Samadhan Suresh Dahale Mr.Nikam is correct...Use insert plate ...Jacket space should be
maintained as per datasheet and also check code requirement..March 22, 2012 at 8:45am Like

Vishal Patil The weld joint of the limpet coil at the change in thickness region shall be checked with
fabrication group. One can use insert plate without taking the limpet coil in that region, but you need to
check with process. Generally process accepts this local pocket. One can try the self-reinfoced nozzle
rather than changing the shell thickness if the dia of shell in big, this might be economical rather than
changing the shell thickness.
March 28, 2012 at 8:53pm Like
Purav Desai
Hi Friends,

When using Weld ring gasket with auxiliary gasket for girth/body flange;

(1) What values of m & Y shall be considered in design?


(2) Do we need to consider future machining allowance for flange?
Like Unfollow Post Share March 29, 2012 at 8:59am
Satvik Patel I think you are talking about lip seal gasket...1)m &y factor is to be consider as per
gasket used for hydrotest purpose...it definataly affects flange design. 2) no need to consider
machining allowance.March 29, 2012 at 9:06am Like

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Purav Desai Can you elaborate what do you mean by "m &y factor is to be consider as per gasket
used for hydrotest purpose". As per me, For hydrotest purpose Lip seal gasket only shall be
used.March 30, 2012 at 9:05am Like

Kumar Kashyap weld ring gasket can be re welded 4 times... after that even it is required to be
changed... so if required machining allowance is to be provided..March 30, 2012 at 9:09am Like

Kumar Kashyap basically there are are 2 types of weld ring gaskets... one with auxilliary gasket and
one without.....one without will not use any extra gasket for hydrotest... so m & y value should be
0March 30, 2012 at 9:11am Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Did anyone deal with fixed tubesheet exchanger with two expansion bellow?
Rahul Valand Two expansion below or two convolution???
April 3, 2012 at 9:02pm via mobile Like
Avinash Araj i guess we go for second bellow, when a single bellow with 3 convolutions , is not able
to deal with thermal exp in the exchanger
April 3, 2012 at 10:11pm Like 1
Hemant Nikam Dear all,
I have not deal the same but i know the Arrangemwnt of two expansion bellow in vertical exchanger
are one above the lug support and other one in below the support to allow the expansion bothside of
support.
Rohitash Singh Panwar @hemant: Do u have the drawing for that exchanger with two bellow..
April 4, 2012 at 10:20am via mobile Like
Hemant Nikam Dear,
If u have hpcl pjt backup u can refer that dwg and second thing this double bellow arrangement is
applicable to vertical exchangers because of supports,in case of horizontal we can increase convolution
and adjust between saddle.
Arpita Shah
In which condition the App. S and Y is applicable for the bolted flange design.
Like Unfollow Post Share April 7, 2012 at 7:23pm via mobile
Vishal Patil Appendix 2 :- Mandatory for bolted gasketed flange joint, Appendix S :- non mandatory
appendix, large dia, specially for high temp, high pressure, unusual cases and to get the tighten bolts
sufficiently to withstand the test pressure without leakage. Appendix Y :- the flanges are flat faced and
are in uniform metal-to-metal contact across their entire face during assembly before the bolts
are tightened or after a small amount of preload is applied
to compress a gasket. Appendix 2 and Appendix Y are for designing for flanges and appendix S for
leakproof joint.

April 7, 2012 at 11:14pm Like

Hemant Nikam Appendix y is applicable for flat face flanges where edge of mating flanges touches to
each other and formed metal to metal contact thus this appendix ensures the safety .
Appendix s stated some additional desgin considerations.

Purav Desai
Hi Friends,

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I have one doubt for Plate Heat Exchangers.

Has anybody come across the term called "Crimp Height" for plate heat exchangers?

Please share your views.


Like Unfollow Post Share April 12, 2012 at 10:50am
Kanhaiya Narkhede likes this.

Hiren Javia This term is also used in structured packing. in this that it is a depth of embossing on a
thin sheet..April 13, 2012 at 10:59pm Like

Purav Desai Thanks Hiren Javia, My understanding was also the same, that in plate heat exchanger,
we use the corrugated plates, so here crimp height is the depth for corrugation made on sheet.April
14, 2012 at 6:59am Like

Mitul Patel
Dear all,I have query regarding tubeside jacketed heat exchanger.jacket side is steam with
5.6 bar / 190 degree C.Do we need to check inner shell when we perform hydrotest on
jacket side.Hydrotest pressure is based on MAP.Does code permit to avoid hydrotest of
jacket inplace of any other testing like helium leak test etc.Please share your views.
Like Unfollow Post Share April 7, 2012 at 9:25pm via mobile
Satvik Patel yes you have to consider hydro test. Code says to perform hydro test or Pneumatic test
only.April 12, 2012 at 5:25pm Like

Mitul Patel One possible solution for above problem I came across.While finding governing
MAP/MAWP we need to consider maximum allowable external pressure of inner shell also.and we need
to limit hydrotest pressure to this value means weakest component.In my case if we consider only
jacket element than hydrotest pressure will be much higher.vendor has done same.Here 90% yield will
not work because this test pressure will act as external pressure.Hope it is clear to all.April 13, 2012
at 8:08pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Mitul but let me know the hydrotest procedure for the jacketed vessel, does it
hydrotested separately or along-with vessel? If it is hydrotested along-with vessel then the vessel shell
will face differential pressure right?...April 14, 2012 at 7:02am Like

Satvik Patel For jacketed vessel it is required to do separately hydro test...reason is that before
putting jacket on shell joint is to be checked with shell side hydro for any leak. so after this jacket side
hydro to be done.April 14, 2012 at 2:14pm Like

Mitul Patel As mentioned by satvik jacket hydor shall be done separatley.It is also mentioned in UG-
99 that it is is to be separately tested.April 14, 2012 at 10:45pm Like

Purav Desai
Hey Friends,

I have a doubt for the thermal expansion values given in ASME Sec. II D / TEMA. The
thermal expansion values starts with 70 F but if the temperature is below 70 F, what
value of thermal expansion to be used?

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For equipment specially fixed tubesheet exchanger in cryogenic (low temperature) service,
usually have mean metal temperaure below 70 F. What value of thermal expansion to be
considered here?

Further, i have observed that Commercial software like PVELite, COMPRESS asssumes
some value of thermal expansion in tubesheet calculation but can't figure it out from
where it is coming?
Like Follow Post Share June 27, 2012 at 8:09am
Avedhesh Gupta believe this is standard temperature on which dimensions are based. When you say
it is one meter then you may refer that it is measured when metal temperature is 21C (70F). At the
time of measurement if metal temperature is higher, then you must add the expansion to work out
actual length at that temperature.And this is why you do not find expansion coefficient below this std
temperatureJune 27, 2012 at 9:29pm Like 2

Avedhesh Gupta metal contraction values are negligible, no value addition in calculation when metal
temperature are lower than this standard temperature. Low metal temperature only good for material
selection /evaluation on which it shall be safe. This is all I believe no literature basis, so if I am wrong
please correctJune 27, 2012 at 9:32pm Like 2

Hemant Solanki
I am designing BEM type exchanger with vapor belt provided on shell side. Shell is slotted
within vapor belt area. As per UHX- 4(d)(1) vapor belt where shell is not continuous across
the belt shall be designed in accordance with UHX-17. Now UHX-17 is for Flanged and
fluid type expansion joint.
Vendor has provided calculation according to UHX-4(d)(2) as per which shell is continuous
across the belt shall be designed in accordance with Type 1 jacket in App-9.
I think vendor has to follow UHX-4(d)(1) as shell is not continuous along belt. But how to
take care UHX-17? because UHX-17 is talking about expansion bellow not vapor belt.
Can any body give guidance and share their view on this regard. How to design vapor belt
and take care it's effect as per UHX? If any body have past project experience on this
please share your experience on the same.
Like Unfollow Post Share July 1, 2012 at 8:10pm

Purav Desai Hi Hemant,

Regarding your query, as per my experience, Vapor belts in heat exchangers are provided for the
distribution of shell side fluid. Overhead condenser is the typical application.

Now coming to the point, as described in UHX- 4(d) (1), if shell is not continuous, it will behave as an
expansion joint and vapor belt will have to resist differential thermal expansion (stresses) between shell
& tube. Thats why code is asking to comply with UHX-17 where shell is not continuous.

However, for continuous shell where part of shell is slotted in vapor belt area, as the shell is
continuous, differential thermal expansion (stresses) shall be resisted by shell/tube-to-tubesheet joint.
In this case we just need to check vapor belt as per Type 1 jacket in App-9.

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Generally vapor belts are provided continuous shell with slots in the vapor belt area. So vendor
calculation as per UHX-4(d) (2) is correct..July 3, 2012 at 2:22pm Like 3

Hemant Solanki Purav has correctly explained UHX-4 (d)(1) and 4(d)(2). I also discussed with my
lead and understood clearly. However while finding solution for this I came across new findings from
code.
FYI, upto 2010 edition of code there is only UHX-4(d) which is mentioning about if shell is not
continuous, deign as per UHX-17 but there is no detail added for continuous shell vapor belt.
In 2011 addenda asme has grouped both method as UHX-4(d)(1) and 4(d)(2).
As in my project 2010 edition is applicable so i no need to satisfy UHX-4(d)(2) requirements. still my
vendor has provided vapor belt calculation as per App-9.
one interesting requirement as per clause 4(d)(2) is "The longitudinal stress in the shell section with
openings (for flow into the shell) shall be based on the net area of the shell (the shell area less that
removed by the openings) and shall not exceed the applicable allowable stress criteria. For U-tube and
floating head exchangers, the allowable
axial stress is the maximum allowable stress for the shell material (see UG-23), and for fixed tubesheet
exchangers, the allowable stress is as defined in UHX-13.5.10."
We need to check how to take care of above requirement as per 2011 addenda for continuous shell
vapor belt. We have to just check this in Pvelite-2012 that how pvelite is taking care this requirement.
Any one who can interpret above requirement and can explain where to take care this in UHX
calculation please discuss it in this forum..July 3, 2012 at 8:44pm Like

Purav Desai
Hello friends,

I would like to share one important learning of mine especially for UOP licensor
requirements;

For reboilers (fixed tubesheet type), UOP has a specific requirement as below;

Reboiler shall have expansion joint on the shell. Expansion joint design shall consider
shell side start-up condition where shell side medium is at maximum design temperature
and fluid inside tubes is at 15 C.

Once, I came across the above requirement & I designed reboilers considering Mean Metal
temperature (MMT) as below;

Shell side MMT: Shell side design temperature


Tube side MMT: 15 C

With above, all the reboiler had minimum 3 convolutions of expansion joint. Some
exchangers have as many as 5 convolutions. Sometimes for SS/CS exchanger such critical
differential temperature results in bellows type expansion joint (thin wall), which in a way
increases exchanger cost.

Recently I come across similar situation in my present assignment and upon further
reading, I found that, the temperatures given in UOP design condition is for fluid and not
the mean metal temperature. These temperatures shall be used to calculate MMT using
thermal design software (HTRI, HTFS etc.). The interesting part is when we calculated the

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MMT, the exchanger design is passing without expansion joint for carbon steel
exchangers. Even for stainless steel/carbon steel exchangers only one convolution of
expansion joint was needed.

Please take care of above if you are dealing with UOP as a licensor. It is very important &
can reduce cost of exchanger significantly.
Like Follow Post Share July 19, 2012 at 4:05pm
Arpita Shah, Mitul Patel and Rohitash Singh Panwar like this.

Hemant Solanki
Localized Corrosion in a Heat Exchanger Channel
Background
A Local Thin Area (LTA) was found during an online ultrasonic examination
The LTA was in the heat exchanger channel shell near an inlet nozzle (a major structural
discontinuity
An aggressive corrosion rate, greater than 500 mils/year (12.7 mm/year was observed, as
was the failure of the internal coating
The facility planned to replace the channel within one year
Engineering Solution
A Part 5, Level 3 Fitness-For-Service (FFS) assessment of the damage was performed in
accordance with the API 579-1/ASME FFS-1 Standard
A grid of thickness data was provided by inspectors and transferred to a spreadsheet. The
spreadsheet was color coded to show the areas of highest damage (in red). Note black
area is nozzle hole in shell.
The thickness measurement data was transferred onto a finite element model for analysis
as shown.
Based on the calculated stress, the FFS assessment indicated that the vessel is acceptable
for continued operation based on the assumptions made for the future corrosion
allowance
Recommendations
Apply a new internal, two component coating system to the heat exchanger channel
Perform online ultrasonic thickness monitoring on a monthly basis to confirm the
effectiveness of the coating and the assumed future corrosion allowance
Replace the damaged component (channel shell) with a stainless steel clad, carbon steel
shell
Benefits
Avoided a costly delay in the shutdown
Was able to demonstrate that the component (channel shell) could be operated safely for
one year without replacement
Like Unfollow Post Share July 23, 2012 at 8:28pm
Rohitash Singh Panwar likes this.

Deepak Gitte
As per the project requirement design code for seismic is Code: UBC 97 + API STD 650
10th Edition (2003) and we had done calculation as per this code but during calculation

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of scaling factor we consider Q=1 as per API-650 app. E clause E.4.6.1 Q may be taken
equal to 1.0 unless otherwise defined in the regulatory requirements where ASCE 7 does
not apply based on this clause our calculation is correct.

But on other hand our civil team consider scaling factor is Q=2/3 for ASCE and civil team
done all necessary work such as foundation.

what is solution for this problem, I never across this type of situation.

I want know significant of Q, Please share your experience and knowledge.

See the para from API-650 App. E


Like Follow Post Share July 25, 2012 at 5:59am
Purav Desai As per me, Q is the scaling factor used to get the Fa & FV values for Design Earthquake
case. Now there are two cases for for seismic design;

1) Design Earthquake design (DBE)


2) Maximum considered earthquake design (MCE)

The values of factor Fa & FV are specified only for Maximum Considered Earthquake (refer API 650
Table E-1 & E-2). So when you are designing for Design basis earthquake, you will have to multiply
these values by 2/3.

Further as per ASCE 7, definition of Design Earthquake is given as;


The earthquake effects that are two-thirds of the corresponding Maximum Considered Earthquake
(MCE) effects.

Hence in your case, surely the civil team specification ask for foundation design as per Design Basis
Earthquake design and hence they are using 2/3 factor.July 25, 2012 at 8:59am Like 1

Mihir Jha Q is simply a multiplication factor which is directly related to the factor of safety. If you want
to design for MCE condition whose probabily is very less, then the foundation load become high and
cost of the project is also going to be very high. FOR DBE case is less sever as we are considering only
67% of load at MCE condition. In one of my project Only column is designed for MCE condition and
other vessel /drum is design for DBE condition.July 25, 2012 at 12:17pm Like

Mrudul Vasavada
Anybody have the copy of Code Case 2714? Please pass it on to me on
mrudulv@gmail.com
Like Unfollow Post Share July 26, 2012 at 10:29am
Hemant Solanki As per 2011a addenda ASME has introduced a new single Product Certification Mark.
Refer attached article from HSB newsletter for the same.
However Please note that in SECTION VIII, the Case No. 2714 shall be listed on the MDR if the
vessel is to be U, U2, U3-stamped instead of ASME Certification mark stamping.
This is possible until 31 December 2012, after that date you cannot accept the U, U2, U3 stamping any
more.
email
Refer Code case 2714 attached herewith.July 26, 2012 at 10:52am via Like 2

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Mrudul Vasavada Many Thanks Hemant Solanki.July 26, 2012 at 11:06am Like

Purav Desai
Hello Friends,

During the Vendor drawing checking for one of the equipment body flange, vendor
selected 70 stud bolts. Looking at 70, i simply commented that number of bolts shall
always be in multiple of four (4), Please revise.

But then a question came to my mind, why we always select no. of bolts (flnge bolts/skirt
support bolts) in multiple of four (4)?

I tried but could not succed to get the concrete answer.

Please share your views.


Like Unfollow Post Share August 13, 2012 at 2:46pm
Faizan Ahmed 4 quadrants... straddled center line with equal distance.....August 13, 2012 at
3:18pm Like

Krishna Desai should be always straddle at centerline and with equal angle.
This is possible only when the bolt is selected in multiple of four.
Because of that rule, Orientation of Anchor bolt will automatically fixed, by specify only no. of anchor
bolt. No need to specify orientation of perticular bolt. Smart thumb rule to avoid error in mismatch in
equipment base ring and foundation.August 13, 2012 at 3:29pm Like 1

Ramesh Tiwari Purav, I don't think you are going to get a definite, concrete answer to this question.
But the practice indeed is to use number of bolts in multiples of four - for reasons already mentioned
above. I think if you do a quick literature survey, the results will bear out this fact.August 13, 2012 at
3:36pm Like

Purav Desai Thanks for replying to such a silly query.August 13, 2012 at 4:04pm Like

Hemant Solanki ASME B16.5 is also de standard for the number and the diameter of the bolt holes in
a flange. The numbers and diameters diverge per Pressure Class, but is for every typ of flange in a
specific Pressure Class the same. The bolt holes are be similar divided over the diameter of the bolt
circle, and the number is always an even number (4, 8, 12, 16 etc.).
My view on this is as below.
As we know that 2 Nos. of bolts are not adequate for proper flange joint as it will not give full proof
joint even though we go for high bolt size.
To give even pressure on gasket more than 3 studs are required. It will compress gasket evenly. With 3
bolts also there is lack of even gasket compression because it will give 120 relative orientation
between studs. Which will provide larger space between studs as we go for higher size flanges. So with
4 and multiple of 4 we are just ensuring that gasket compression will be even during tightening of
bolts. As we know the bolt tightening sequence also confirms such that gasket will be at even
compression. Tightening sequence image is attached herewith.
Also with multiple of 4 straddling of the studs will have no problem.

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This funda is also applicable for deciding number of anchor and setting bolts.August 13, 2012 at
email
6:34pm via Like 2

Hiren Javia as per my opinipn.August 13, 2012 at 6:54pm via mobile Like

Hiren Javia as per my opinion it is so becuse on center line both x and y axis gets equal and simitric
bolt load.August 13, 2012 at 6:56pm via mobile Like

Manish Shukla PB, my answers to you is:

You CAN have studs with multiple of "2" instead of "4".

As per KBR: One can go with multiple of 2 above size 2.5" UNC

However, you have to maintain offset to C/L.

As per ASME PCC-1: This code doesn't say about number of bolts nor it says straddle to center line.
This code takes the reference of bolt tightening procedure till 80 number of bolts (as I remember).

If you see the figures of bolt tightening procedure there is fig for the bolts which are not straddle
hence, bolt can fall on axis.

There are 4 different ways of bolt tightening apart from "legacy".

If you read those ways you would be able to understand how differently bolt can be tightened.August
13, 2012 at 7:42pm Like 1

Pramod Dixit The logic behind practice of taking multiple of 4 was that all bolts shall be uniformly
placed in all 4 quadrants of the flange and no bolt shall fall on any center line ( horizontal or vertical).
Now the question is why CL bolt is avoided ? reason is very simple imagine a bolt at bottom facing the
ground and very close gap with ground. or imagine two flanges of pipes close to each other and both
flanges having stud bolts on horizontal CL. Is it not difficult to open ??.....August 15, 2012 at
3:50pm Like 1

Hemant Nikam Dear Purav,

To avoid the leakage from flange joint we always follow the below
procedure,

During the tighteneing of bolts we always tight first one nut/bolt and then tight opposite to that ,If you
have not considered no of bolts for flange
joint in multiply of 4In that may not happened exactly tightening of
opposite portion of flange and chances of leakage/bending of flange may be there.

email
If any body have different view let us share..August 15, 2012 at 6:28pm via Like 1

Rajendra Sharma

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Shall we design a equipment with MAWP = Design Pressure?


Though the client wants the equipment to be designed with MAWP (MAWP to be stamped
on the name plate).
Like Unfollow Post Share August 16, 2012 at 9:29pm

Mihir Jha The question seems to be incomplete. Equipment designed with MAWP that does not mean
that MAWP = Design pressure. Client want to calculate the MAWP of the equipment. If you calculate
the MAWP, it always => Design Pressure. For the equipment, when the calculation are not made to
determine the MAWP . Then , we can consider MAWP = Design pressure. Refer UG-99 (b) Note 34.
MAWP is always stamped on the name plate for code stamped vessel Ref. Fig-UG-118.August 17,
2012 at 7:41am Like

Purav Desai Hi Rajendra,

Yes, you can use design pressure as MAWP. In my present project, similar to your case, it is specified
that equipment to be designed for MAWP. However an additional note is given for the use of design
pressure as MAWP.

The maximum allowable working pressure (MAWP) may be the design pressure specified at the top of
the vessel for the design temperature provided openings are adequately reinforced and the specified
corrosion allowance is available without the use of reinforcement pads. The pressure used in the
calculations shall be adjusted for any difference in static head that may exist between the part
considered and the top of the vessel.

I think if you ensure above you can use MAWP as design pressure.August 17, 2012 at 10:06am Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Dear purav sir...


I have one doubt...why client specify to design the equipment at MAWP....that in future if client wants
to increase the design pressure..then he can use the same equipment upto the pressure equal to
MAWP...right sir..if i m wrong ..plz correct me...

Now my doubt is....if we take MAWP equal to design pressure as per code...in order to avoid calculation
for same.....then the whole purpose for which the client insist to design the equipment at MAWP is not
solved...
Please give ur opinion on sameAugust 18, 2012 at 9:09am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki First of all we are designing pressure equipment with following steps.
1. we have to determine a minimum required thickness for any pressure element based on design
pressure. after computation of the minimum thickness, we add corrosion allowance, mill
undertolerance, any additional thickness to satisfy UG-22 loadings, and finally can select a commercially
available nominal thickness of the element. The same way we compute a minimum required thickness
of every pressure boundary component and determine a nominal thickness. We satisfied the design
Pressure and the Code requirements and technically can stop at this point to allow the components to
be a bit thicker than required.
2. However, after the nominal thicknesses are determined for each component, we usually re-calculate
MAWP. MAWP is the maximum gage pressure permissible at the top of a completed vessel in operating
condition.MAWP is the least of the values for the internal pressure to be determined by the rules of this
Division for any of the pressure boundary parts, including the static head thereon.MAWP is calculated
using nominal thickness exclusive of allowances for corrosion.

So even though as per equipment nominal thickness MAWP of equipment is more than (and it should
be equal or greater than) design pressure. I can limit MAWP of this equipment at Design pressure.

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Rohitash Singh Panwar, Your doubt is good. but logically what client says is that other than shell and
head all remaining pressure equipment shall be designed on MAWP of that equipment. What you has
written it means that you have to again take P=MAWP in code formulas. Which is not the case and not
correct way. In that scenario you will never get specific thickness because after every calculation of min
thickness you will again add some allowance and it will again increase and change MAWP of your
equipment.
What client is asking that specify MAWP of this equipment. which will be greater than design pressure.
Yes he is asking to get idea upto which this equipment can pressurised in future.
We have to just calculate MAWP by back calculation of code formula and specify it on nameplate and
drawing. However before specifying it we have to ensure that at this MAWP other components like
nozzles, nozzle local load analyse, support lugs everything are OK or not. otherwise in future when
client wants to increase pressure upto MAWP. shell and head may not fail but other components as
mentioned may get failure.
During design if your nozzles and supports are failed with MAWP as design condition then as rightly
said by Purav, limit MAWP equals to design pressure and specify it on your drawing and nameplate. so
client will not think to increase pressure beyond it. Practically why to increase thickness (and cost also)
of other components due to MAWP while still it is not clear whether client will try to increase pressure
or not. Better to limit it upto Design Pressure in case of failures. If everything is OK then go with actual
MAWP.August 18, 2012 at 1:59pm Like 1

Rohitash Singh Panwar Actually i mean to say that hydrotest pressure based on mawp....not the
design of equipment at MAWP......
If we take actual MAWP then we might have to increase the thickness to pass the equipment in
hydrotest condition......
In one of case of floating head heat exchanger, the hydrotest pressure on shell side is based on 1.3
times of MAWP...but when we apply this hydrotest pressure on shell side...then the floating head cover
fails in external pressure because the MAEP of floating head cover is lesd than 1.3 times of MAWP on
shel side....the same problem we have faced for jacketed channel where inner head and shell fails in
external pressure...in these cases,either we have to increase the thickness or we can limit MAWP to
design pressureAugust 18, 2012 at 3:12pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki I will try to explain condition here and how to get through it.Imagine one
intermediate dish end which is occupied inside shell. Now how to decide MAWP for lower chamber
(below intermediate dish end). This lower chamber is equipped with bottom head , connecting shell
and on top intermediate dish end. Here, we have to first find out MAWP of bottom head and connecting
shell. Then find out MAEP of intermediate dish end as internal pressure in lower chamber will act on
convex side of this intermediate dish end. Now compare MAWP of bottom dish end, shell with MAEP of
intermediate dish end. lowest out of these 3 will become MAWP of lower chamber. Obviously
Intermediate dish end MAEP will limit MAWP of lower chamber. With this we have to carry out hydro
pressure calculation as per UG-99(b). Actually Pvelite is not understanding this so we have to manually
calculate and put it as user defined MAWP.
Same logic can be applied in floating head exchanger.
Also during hydro time floating head assembly hydro they perform separate. they use test ring for shell
hydro. Purav, please correct about this if I am wrongAugust 19, 2012 at 12:27pm Like 1

Madhusudhan Shetty I would like to put / get some clarityAugust 19, 2012 at 3:24pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Ya sir...we had also calculated the MAWP in the same way...but the
problems arise when the intermediate dish end governs...so we have to multiply the intermediate
dished end maep by 1.3 for calculating the hydrotest pressure.....in this case the intermediate dish end
fails in external pressure...because hydrotest pressure (1.3x MAEP) is greater than intermediate

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dishend MAEP.....we cannot take allowable stress as 90% yield in case of external pressure...so in this
case , we have to increase the dished end thickness...till the point where maep of dished end is greater
than 1.3 x MAWP of other governing component........or in a simpler way...donot consider the
intermediate dished end while calculating the mawp and then design the intermediate dished end for
externsl pressure equal to 1.3 x mawp for hydrotest condition...please correct me..if i m
wrong.....August 19, 2012 at 3:28pm via mobile Like

Madhusudhan Shetty 1) During hydrotest of the shell side (major barrel), the bundle will not be in
position hence floating head will not come into picture 2) Floating bundle needs to be hydrotested
seperately. 3) Most of the specifications say"MAWP shall not be limited by nozzle reinforcement" (take
care of this)August 19, 2012 at 3:32pm Like

Hemant Solanki As intermediate dish end is governing and 1.3* MAWP is acting as external pressure
on intermediate head we can take allowable as 0.9*By. here By is terminating point of external
pressure chart of given material. Try this. And also as Madhusudhan Shetty has explained for floating
head it is not needed to check floating head for hydrotest..August 19, 2012 at 7:08pm Like

Rajendra Sharma Please note that some specs. states that not only nozzle reinforcement but MWP
shall not be governed by nozzle neck or flange rating.
Now if in case MAWP is governed by nozzle rating than either we have to increase flange rating and in
that case piping have to increase piping thickness or either we can take advantage of MAWP=Design
pressure.By by doing MAWP=Design pressure (which is even acceptable as per code)we can save
considerable amount of cost..August 19, 2012 at 9:55pm Like 1

Rohitash Singh Panwar I think floating head cover is subjected to external pressure during
hydrotest of shell side....please correct me if i m wrong..

Hydrotest procedure for floating heat exchanger...


1. Tube side hydrotest...with test flange on shell side for clamping the tubesheet....joint which are
tested are....gasketed joint between stationary tubesheet and channel flange...channel cover and
channel flange joint....and joint for fliating head cover and floating tubesheet...
2. Shell side hydrotest...first remove floating head cover...then with the help of test ring floating head
tubesheet is kept inposition...test ring is bolted with rear shell flange...the joint which are tested
are....tube to tubeshhet joint for stationary and floating head....gasketed joint between tubesheet and
shell flange..

Till now all the gasketed joints are tested except one...i.e. between rear shell flange and shell cover
flange...

So the next step is to remove the test ring...then bolt the floating tubesheet between backing ring and
floating head cover....then bolt the shell cover with rear shell flange...then again pressurise the shell
side with water to check the joint of shell flange and shell cover....
During this..the floating head cover is subjected to external pressure equal to shell side hydrotest
pressure....so we have to design the floating head cover for external pressure during hydrotest....
Please give ur opinion on same......August 20, 2012 at 11:29am via mobile Like 1

Mitul Patel Rohitash,I think your understanding is correct.

Hemant can you please give Asme code basis for the 0.9By.

we have checked in aspensuite BJAC software which also doing similar to this when we run hydrotest
case.

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Because as far as I know code is silent on external hydro test pressure.Please refer code interpretation
number VIII-82-57.

likewise 0.9*yield for internal hydrotest is not mentioned in div.1 we are using the same.

As ASME has taken factor of saftey of 3.5 while finalising allowable stress of diff. material.

Value of B in external pressure chart is also stress with some f.o.s.For situation like hydro we can use
higher stress but there is no strong back up in code.

If anybody has any idea on this please share.August 20, 2012 at 8:49pm via mobile Like

Rajendra Sharma Dear friends the question was shall we declare MAWP=Design pressure if still client
wants MAWP of each component to be calculated.(specially where client is Shell).August 20, 2012 at
9:19pm Like

Rajendra Sharma Please share your experience by stating Yes or No.August 20, 2012 at
9:21pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Yes.August 20, 2012 at 11:36pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Very rightly mentioned by query originator, since last few conversations we have been
diverted to different topic then the original question. Anyways this also is very interesting & must know
topic.

Coming to the same, what rohitash and mitul has mentioned is correct. Floating head will subject to
external hydro test pressure & needs to be designed for that.

Further same is the case with jacketed vessel; it also needs to be designed as mentioned above for
hydro test case. If MAEP governs, allowable stress shall be 0.9 * By as explained by Hemant in one of
the reply above. We can use 0.9 * By because compressive stress will be applied on components under
external pressure and this we can compare with factor B which is allowable compressive stress.

Also, I would like to mention here is, similar to above there are many more design issues in static
equipment design. The important point is such situation has to be handled tactfully and smartly based
on the work place where it arises i.e. if it arises at an EPC company or vendors place; dealing with the
same, one has to keep in mind schedule & cost of the equipment. I have also observed that such
stringent requirements were brought into by referring others specifications and applicability of the
same must be checked. Once known such points shall be clarified with Owner/PMC in advance. Hope
with this we can conclude on this query..August 21, 2012 at 5:43am Like

Hemant Solanki Thanks Purav for your prompt reply.

External pressure chart is simple stress strain diagram. Strain is A and stress factor is B. Its terminating
point is yield point (By). This By will not change much for internal or external design as yield is material
property.
Hydrotest allowable is not clearly mentioned in code. Only UG-99(b) talks about bolt LSR based on 0.9
times bolt yield strength. This can be taken as reference for hydro allowable upto 0.9 times yield. Most
of the client specifications clearly includes this requirement.
Most time the allowed hydrotest stress will just be 1.3 (1.5 for Pre-99 addenda) times the allowable
stress for the vessel at ambient temperature. Under some circumstances you may choose to use an

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allowable hydrotest stress of 0.9 times the yield stress of the material at ambient temperature. This is
especially helpful in the case of tall vertical process tower where the hydrotest pressure is increased by
height of the water used for testing. Use of the higher hydrotest allowable stress may prevent the
hydrotest case from controlling the thickness of the vessel.
Client spec also specifies that hydro compressive stress to be limited upto external allowable
compressive stress as per code. Which will be upto B. not 0.9 times By. Which is more conservative.
But as per my view we can go upto 0.9 times By as we are following for hydro internal
email
pressure..August 21, 2012 at 11:14am via Like

Hemant Solanki One very interesting fact I observed for hydro allowable.

As mentioned previously Most time the allowed hydrotest stress will just be 1.3 (1.5 for Pre-99
addenda) times the allowable stress for the vessel at ambient temperature. Under some circumstances
you may choose to use an allowable hydrotest stress of 0.9 times the yield stress of the material at
ambient temperature.

If we take UTS as basis for hydro allowable then in that case hydro allowable = 1.3 X UTS at ambient /
3.5 = 0.371 X UTS at ambient.
Now If we take Yield Stress as basis then Hydro allowable = 1.3 X 2/3 X YS at ambient = 0.8666 X YS
at ambient = Approx. 0.90 X YS at ambient.

So YS basis Hydro allowable can be limited upto 0.90 X YS. Which is also logical and will limit stress
below plastic zone. With UTS hydro allowable will be more conservative which may ask for increase in
thickness in Hydrocase. Which is merely not required.

Others may share their views. But I think 0.9 X YS basis came from this logic.August 21, 2012 at
email
11:43am via Like 1

Rupesh Ubale Your observation is correct...previously it was exactly matching, when hydro was 1.5
times (i.e. 3/2) the allowable....as hydro test is one of the form of non-destructive or rather non-
deformative test so obviously it has to be restricted upto yeild...Therefore setting allowable upto yeild
for hyro which is nothing but = 1.5*2/3*YS=YS..August 21, 2012 at 10:12pm Like

Rupesh Ubale MAWP : If spec says so...them you should design equipment for MAWP..but at times
there may be failures in the vessel for selected MAWP..It advisable to then to go for lowering MAWP for
saving material cost...Use userdefine MAWP while solving the problemsAugust 21, 2012 at
10:18pm Like

Purav Desai
Dear Members,

I would like to share below clause of ASME Sec. VIII Div. I Part UHX 13.4(b) and UHX
14.4(c);

"Elastic Moduli, yield strengths and allowable stresses shall be taken at design
temperatures. However for cases involving thermal loading (loading case 4,5,6 and 7), it is
permitted to use the operating temperatures instead of design temperatures (see UG-20)."

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This will be helpful for fixed tubesheet design. A quick tab is available for this clause in
Commercial software like PVELite, COMPRESS.
Like Follow Post Share June 26, 2012 at 11:34am
Kiran Gawade, Rohitash Singh Panwar, Avedhesh Gupta and 6 others like this.

Ankur Gupta Thanks for sharing

June 26, 2012 at 4:17pm Like

Arpita Shah hey thanxs 4 sharing

June 26, 2012 at 6:15pm via mobile Like

Manish Shukla I understand!

June 26, 2012 at 8:40pm via mobile Like

Rupesh Ubale Thanks

August 21, 2012 at 11:08pm Like

Hemant Solanki
NTIW Tubesheet Design - How ?

As per UHX-10(a) The tubesheet shall be uniformly perforated over a nominally circular
area, in either equilateral triangular or square patterns.However, untubed lanes for pass
partitions are permitted.
Does as per above clause NTIW tubesheet can not be design with UHX ?
Please discuss.
If not then How to design NTIW tubesheet ?
Like Unfollow Post Share August 22, 2012 at 6:49pm via Email

Purav Desai and Mitul Patel like this.

Rupesh Ubale No with normal UHX methodology it's not possible. To solve this you have to consider
plate with two different youngs mod.

One E* for tube portion of TS & other E for untubed portion of tube sheet..such model is then
analysed in FEA...We might feel that partially tubed TS will be more safer...but its not always true...in
such cases there is possibility of generation of sec. stresses at junction of tubes & untubed due to
apparently different E* & E

same is also explained in UHX

August 22, 2012 at 11:35pm Like

Hemant Solanki Yes Rupesh, as per code interpretation VIII-1-04-61, ASME also stated to perform
FEA. The same interpretation is as below.

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email
Interpretation: VIII-1-04-61.August 23, 2012 at 9:24am via Like

Hemant Solanki Question: Do tubesheets for shell-and-tube heat exchangers having a no-tubes-in-
window (NTIW) baffle design fall within the scope of Section VIII, Division 1 Part UHX?

email
Reply: No; see UHX-10(a) and U-2(g)..August 23, 2012 at 9:25am via Like 1

Purav Desai Sounds surprizing!!! TEMA also specifiies the same thing for conditions of applicability
(Tubes are uniformaly distributed, no large untube area). However during design of tubesheet in
commercial softwares, it does not provide warning message for this and till now I used to design
tubesheet for NTIW baffles using rules of UHX. Further I believe that for NTIW baffles design,
tubesheet thickness calculated by UHX rules will be conservative because of comparitively less
perforations in the tubesheet.August 23, 2012 at 10:09am Like 1

Purav Desai Similar to above case, its always a case of higher untube lane area for washet heat
exchangers. In one of my previous job, i experienced that for this case tubesheet calculation was done
considering it as stayed plate (UG-47), wherein tubes are considered as stay bolts and additionally in
the top half of the tubesheet untube area were supported by bracings from the shell side. Can we use
the same for NTIW baffle tubesheet design also? Please share ur views.August 23, 2012 at
10:25am Like

Hemant Solanki For NTIW design all design software distributes total number of tubes uniformly over
tubesheet and then performs UHX analysis. Which is not the correct way.
As ASME has clearly mentioned that U-2(g) is applicable in such design then FEA is the only option.
This will increase design and overall cost of NTIW exchanger design.
I suggest members please discuss this within your organization about how they tackles this issue.
Also we have to also highlight this issue to Coadae and Codeware..August 23, 2012 at
email
10:28am via Like

Hemant Solanki Refer very interesting conversation on NTIW tubesheet design given on below link.
http://www.onetb.com/forum/ntiw-tubesheet-calculation-t231.html

ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code - ONE/TV/BV Technical Inspections View topic -
NTIW tubeshee

email
www.onetb.com.....August 23, 2012 at 12:18pm via Like Remove Preview

Hemant Solanki Attached is the FE method for NTIW tubesheet design.August 23, 2012 at
email
12:20pm via Like

Purav Desai Thanks Hemant for raising such a good topic......August 23, 2012 at 4:06pm Like

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Amarnath C. Roy I guess Purav You are right... We generally don't go for FEA for NTIW design.
Because the UHX method gives more conservative design anytime... If you are going for FEA as we
have done in a few cases (per Client's requirement) we found that the tubesheet thickness is comes
out to be lesser then what we got through UHX calc. So Hemant I can tell you that, NTIW design
through UHX is acceptable. But of course, FEA always gives you more accurate design.August 25,
2012 at 5:04pm Like

Ankur Gupta frnds, pl make me understand how NTIW condition is different from any multi passes
layout for design of tubesheet.because in multi passes also, there are UNTUBED lanes?....August 25,
2012 at 7:59pm Like

Ankur Gupta Rupesh Ubale why there will be diffrent Young's modulus?...August 25, 2012 at
8:00pm Like

Rupesh Ubale Amarnath, Its not always true...I have experienced NTIW case last year in Turkmengas
project with Petrofac...where in even UHX Tubesheet is failing

further to it....there will be more complications when two different rigidity/stiffness exist in single
tubesheet, leads to very different behaviour. There is failure at line between tubed area & untubed
area...even by increasing thickness it became more worse...Here I suppose two different behaviour of
single plate causes excessive stressing. Also according to ASME sec.-1 for Tubesheet design there is
special consideration given for peripheral untubed area, you need to provide stays. Hence its clear that
untubed area dont get benefite tubes which inturn provide stiffness to tubesheet.

Solution to above problem is to provide dummy tubes or stays....which only can be proved by FEA. If
UHX has been conservative design for NTIW then it would have not excluded from scope. Partially
tubed tubesheet behaves in different manner....Reference:Sulphur condenser from Turkmengas project
& Sulphur condenser from Bina refinery.

Diff young's mod: is design methodology..ASME converts perforated tubesheet into an equivalent
unperforated plate of lower youngs mod...which will behave same as of perforated (meaning weak due
to perforation)thats why plate flexibility differs with untubed area. Due to flexibility difference there is
sort of stress concentrationAugust 25, 2012 at 11:10pm Like

Ankur Gupta : Pass partition untubed lanes are in the scope of design of ASME VIIIAugust 25, 2012
at 11:11pm Like

Hemant Solanki Rupesh Ubale has conveyed this topic very correctly. That's why ASME has clearly
mentioned in interpretation VIII-1-04-61 that NTIW tubesheet shall be designed only as per U-2(g) and
not as per UHXAugust 26, 2012 at 12:15pm Like

Arpita Shah
Hi friends
Anyone tell me how to design double pipe heat exchanger? please share your views.
Like Follow Post Share September 4, 2012 at 10:28pm via mobile
Mihir Jha Double pipe is a proprietary venodr design. There are mainly 2 type - One is multitube heat
exchanger and other is simple double pipe. Simple double pipe can be designed by ASME by
considering the two pipe as separate entity. Whereas for multitube type, vendorhave proprietary design
of enclosure, Tubesheet which will depned on the pressure condition. Brownfin is a good vendor of
multitube type. As per mechanical view please consider the following before vendor print review - 1.

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Check datasheet for the requirement of double pipe or multitube 2. Never accept the vendor who
supply double pipe if the requirement is multitube type. The reason is simple, multitube type takes less
space as compared to double pipe. In one project, we have faced the layout problem..September 5,
2012 at 6:41am Like

Arpita Shah Hey thanxSeptember 5, 2012 at 8:09am via mobile Like

Purav Desai Double pipe exchanger design becomes proprietary ONLY WHEN it is specifically asked
by client (i.e. some special vendors like Brown Fintube is recommended by Client).

Most of the times Double pipe exchangers can be thermally designed as straight pipe. Once it is
straight pipe, it can also be added to piping scope. If length is a constraint then it can be thermally
design in hairpin shape also (Refer attached figure).

Hence, when you have double pipe exchanger, and if client wants it to be designed & supplied by
special vendor, I think you must clarify with client & make it a simple design. You can achieve good
amount of cost savingSeptember 5, 2012 at 8:58am Like

Arpita Shah Purav this heat exchanger like hairpin not multi tube type.September 5, 2012 at
11:55am via mobile Like

Mihir Jha Purav Desai I have bitter experience with double pipe in one of my project. In MR it has
mentioned VTA the type of heat exchanger i.e double pipe or multitube. One vendor Applied
engineering from Singapore has quoted double pipe design and brown fin tube has quoted Multitube
type. As per datasheet multitube is required. However i have accepted singapore vendor and brown fin
both as per MR. The weight given by singapore vendor is 100 times greater than brownfin weight. Even
though the cost is less as compared to brownfin. The size furnished by Applied Engg. is very huge as
compared to brown fin. Unfortunately piping do not have so much space to accomodate. Please do not
carried away with the word double pipe.September 5, 2012 at 11:59am Like

Purav Desai Dear Mihir Jha, Looking at your case i think the person who has prepared MR has done a
mistake. If the multitube is required as per datasheet why option for multitube or double pipe is given
in MR. Further if you refer HTRI Program, modules are separate for thermal design of double pipe
exchanger (jacketed pipe) & multitube exchanger. Hence if Licensor datasheet says double pipe, there
are very little chance that it will be changed to multitube type for same design conditions unless
something similar happen as described above..September 5, 2012 at 3:00pm Like

Arpita Shah Well purav and mihir thanxs for your views. but tell me the design procedure as per
code..September 7, 2012 at 7:40pm via mobile Like 1

Purav Desai Oh... I thought the attached sketch clarifies you the design aspects. Its consists of inner
pipe, outer pipe, cap at ends ,standard flange & a return bend. I hope you know ASME calculation for
pipe (nozzles), pipe cap, standard 90 bend as per ASME code.September 7, 2012 at 8:23pm Like

Arpita Shah I didnt get sketch can u mail me on my id arpita3456@yahoo.co.in....September 7, 2012


at 8:32pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
Bs max value in extended end of tubesheet

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In one of exchanger tubesheet was extended as flange. Connecting flange maximum


numbers of bolts has been decided according to flange thickness. But tubesheet extended
portion thickness was less (as compared to connecting flange thickness) so in UHX-9
Bmax calculated based on this extended tubesheet thickness and Bsmax calculated is less
as compatred to Bsmax of connecting flange. Due to which in tubesheet design Bs value
shown as higher than Bsmax.
This will be concern when designing extended end tubesheet with flange. So always
consider extended end of tubesheet hickness (or smaller thickness out of 2 connecting
flange portion) to calculate Bsmax and accordingly decide numbers of bolts.

Like Unfollow Post Share September 11, 2012 at 6:10pm via Email
Purav Desai likes this.

Hemant Solanki
Flange Rigidity in Hydrocase is not required- See latest Interpretation

Interpretation: VIII-1-10-41
Subject: Appendix 2, 2-14; UG-99(b); UG-99(c); and Interpretation VIII-1-07-52 (2010
Edition)
Date Issued: August 30, 2011
File No.: 11-1236
Question: In satisfying the provisions of Appendix 2, 2-14, is it required to calculate the
flange rigidity for
hydrostatic test condition with test pressure established as per UG-99(b) or UG-99(c)?
Reply: No.
Mukesh K Prajapati, Mitul Patel and 2 others like this.

Mitul Patel Can we raise similar inquiry to ASME for doing hydrotest calculation for the Appendix-2
flange ? As this hydrotest calculation is also not standard practise followed by the most of
manufacturers & engineering companies. Please share does it really required to check flange in
hydrotest caseSeptember 13, 2012 at 9:46pm Like

Hemant Solanki Dear,


This interpretation is for flange rigidity check of non standard flanges designed as per Appendix-2.
For Standard flanges as per B16.5 and B16.47 these checks are not done. However hydro test pressure
taken is upto 1.5 times of flange rating for these standrad flanges.

Hemant Solanki I would like to elaborate ASME point of view while coming to this decision.

1. 1st of all Hydrotest is a transiant load condition. It means equipment will go through this loading not
more than 3-4 times during entire equipment life. That is also for less time. Not more than 1 hour.
2. Another point is what is purpose of hydrotest? To check integrity of joints so that there will not be
any leakage during operation. For flange joints if leakage is found it means there is some problem in
bolt tightening or gasket selection. So remedies shall be again deciding torque values for flange joint
and reconsideration of gasket. Note that Bolting (SA 193-B7) are strengthen enough to provide enough
torque on joint withouth bolt failure.
3. In Pvelite why same flange is showing failure during hydro condition check? Because pvelite is
considering 1.3 times design pressure will get apply directly on joint. But practically that is not the

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case. Hydro test pressure always apply in stages during test. Eventually they reach to 1.3 times design
pressure in steps and then again reduces it to test pressure / 1.3 for further joint integrity check.

Mitul Patel
Dear all,

Latest Shell DEP for Heat exhanger calls for verification of the design of Appendix-2 flange
with ASME PCC-1(Guidelines for Pressure Boundary Bolted Flange Joint Assembly)
Appendix O.

What exatly we do in this appendix means what is purpose of this?

What are ASME PCC-1 points to be taken care for the design of Appendix-2 Flange?

Please advice.
Like Unfollow Post Share September 8, 2012 at 3:45pm

Hemant Solanki ASME PCC-1 is the standard for bolted flanges. It gives overall operational and
maintainance aspects related to flanges. It also gives troubleshooting guide for flange operators about
what to do in case of leakage in different circumstances. It also provides torque values which gives leak
proof joint.
As far as design is concerned it says that design flange joint for 50,000 PSI prestress. pre stress is the
stress value which is given to flange joint for leakproof joint before putting it into operation. Flange
should be strengthen enough to take this much loads. do not worry about bolting as SA 193 B7 bolts
are very good in strength. To take care this in design simply increase allowable bolt stress to 50,000
PSI. Due to this gasket seating load Wm2 will govern and bolt load W will be equals to Wm2 which is
equal to Ab X Sb (50000 PSI). At this load your flange thickness should be safe. This kind of design
condition I came to know while working in my recent project. Only thing is our client has specified
40000 PSI as prestress load condition.
I think Shell DEP wants to take care of this load condition in design.
I have soft copy of PCC-1 with me. If you want I will share in this forum by next week.
September 8, 2012 at 8:23pm Like

Mitul Patel Thanks for your valuable post.I think this is new requirement coming up now a
days.September 8, 2012 at 9:47pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Thanks Mitul for posting new requirements.

When I referred ASME PCC-1 Appendix-O, I found that it doesnt ask for flange design for 50000 psi
bolt pre-stress. Appendix-O mainly concentrates on the below issues w.r.t. assembly bolt stress;

(a) Sufficient Gasket Stress to Seal the Joint


(b) Damage to the Gasket
(c) Damage to Bolts
(d) Damage to the Flange

Considering above aspects, Appendix O provides various formulas to determine stresses to cross verify

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flange design.

Further, considering design of non standard flanges as per ASME Sec. VIII Div. 1 App. 2, I believe
except (b) above, we design the flange, bolt and gasket for (a), (c) and (d) conditions. For example,
we design the flange for operating & seating condition, bolt area is determined based on bolt allowable
stress (not the yield stress), and flanges are also checked for rotation (rigidity index). Section(b) above
talks about checking gasket for crushing, that is still not covered in ASME so designed has to take care
of same while design.September 9, 2012 at 7:32am Like

Ankur Gupta KBR has also the requirement of bolt prestress as 50,000 psi. so at KBR , we also design
for prestress. For ASME PCC-I requirement, let me check. But i believe Purav Desai has given gud
descprition.September 9, 2012 at 8:26pm Like

Mitul Patel I was just reading PCC-1 there are so many factor which needs to be taken from the
gasket supplier.Which will effect the calculation of PCC.As mentioned by purav & hemant we decide
bolt prestress which is higher than the design stress.With this stress & bolt load we check
flange,bolt,gasket & rigidity.If all condition satisfy we need to calculate torque value.....i.e.Target
assembly bolt torque to have leak proof flange joint...September 9, 2012 at 10:39pm Like

Hemant Solanki According to Appendix-P of PCC-1


Clause P-4.3 (c) Employ and design for high strength bolting [e.g., SA-193 B7, SA-193 B16, SB-637
(Alloy N07718), etc.], to allow 345 MPa (50 ksi) or greater target bolt prestress.

Mitul Patel Hemant Solanki & Ankur Gupta please share any sample calculation or spreadsheet for
prestress check for the appendix 2 flange as per appendix-O of ASME PCC-1.E-mail me on
mitulpatel@ltcis.ltindia.com...September 16, 2012 at 9:27pm Like

Mihir Jha Mitul Patel Could you please provide the exact requirement stated in shell DEP? Appendix O
is required by the site person during maintenance. Max. and Min. Permissible bolt stress, Target
assembly Gasket Stress are to be selected by end user as per their experience and also it vary from site
to site. For some data, we need to contact gasket manufacturer. By Appendix O, i think endnduser
require the "Assemby Bolt Torque" which they can apply during the course of maintenace.

September 17, 2012 at 6:38pm Like

Hemant Solanki Very simple to check this requirement in Pvelite. In Pvelite while modeling non-
standard flange. Just click on bolting material allowable stress menu and edit bolt allowable stress at
room temperature Sa equals to prestress value i.e. 345 Mpa or 276 Mpa. And run this file. Pvelite will
calculate prestress bolt load as W= Sa X Ab which will be the governing case. Only caution that when
design pressure is more before checking into prestress condition just check design as per normal
design condition. May be Wm1 will govern your flange design then prestress load condition.

Mitul Patel Hemant I think all aspects of this appendix will not be satisfy with just increasing allowable
stress of bolt.Mihir,it is not a site requirement shell DEP ask just after completion of design this need to
be check and if it doesnot satisfy given conditon than redesign the flange.There is reference of WRC
528 bulletin if anybody is having please share.As mentioned earlier few data needs to be taken from
gasket manufacturer.Its not so complicated provided we have all data.In short as mentioned by purav
in prestress we are going above bolt allowable stress so we need to check gasket bolt and flange are
safe or notSeptember 17, 2012 at 7:16pm via mobile Like

Mitul Patel While searching some information on above topic I came across following ASMEarticle.
Brown, W., 2011, Applying ASME PCC-1-2010 Appendix O to Joint Lifecycle Management ",

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Proceedings of the ASME PVP 2011, ASME, Baltimore, MD, USA, PVP2010-57453.............I am trying to
find out on the internet ....If anyone find the same please upload.....

September 17, 2012 at 9:46pm Like

Mihir Jhahttp://memagazine.asme.org/Articles/2011/June/Solving_Puzzle_Bolted_Joints.cfm

September 18, 2012 at 8:40am Like

Mihir Jha Above link will give you the reason for applying ASME PCC-1.

September 18, 2012 at 8:41am Like

Hemant Solanki
ASME point of view for flange rigidity in hydrocase

I would like to elaborate ASME point of view while coming to this decision.

1. 1st of all Hydrotest is a transient load condition. It means equipment will go through
this loading not more than 3-4 times during entire equipment life. That is also for less
time. Not more than 1 hour.

2. Another point is what is purpose of hydrotest ? To check integrity of joints so that there
will not be any leakage during operation. For flange joints if leakage is found it means
there is some problem in bolt tightening or gasket selection. So remedies shall be again
deciding torque values for flange joint and reconsideration of gasket. Note that Bolting (SA
193-B7) are strengthen enough to provide enough torque on joint without bolt failure.

3. In Pvelite why same flange is showing failure during hydro condition check? Because
pvelite is considering 1.3 times design pressure will get apply directly on joint. But
practically that is not the case. Hydro test pressure always apply in stages during test.
Eventually they reach to 1.3 times design pressure in steps and then again reduces it to
'test pressure / 1..3' for further joint integrity check.

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Like Unfollow Post Share September 17, 2012 at 11:44am via Email

Shanker Shukla Hydro test also acts as a stress relieving and regain the molecular structures in line
because of the weldings ( to strengthen the material )September 19, 2012 at 12:51am Like

Vishal Patil MOre to the points above....Hydrotest is the test case... if we do the design for test case
then we are over-designing the equipment, then actual point will not be served. We need to ensure

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that there will not be any leak during operating case. Test pressure is 1.3 times the design pressure if
we are going to design for test pressure then we need to multiply 1.3 to test pressure which is not the
case. And another case is that Hydrotest is inderectly a strain hardening case for the equipment, if we
design equipment for hydrotest then the strain hardening will not occur..September 20, 2012 at
9:02pm Like

Purav Desai
Hello Friends,

Can anybody share the basis on which type of roof support is selected for storage Tanks?
If possible, also include advantage of one over other w.r.t. the service, design
requirements as per Code, construction and cost.
Like Follow Post Share September 26, 2012 at 4:52pm
Darshan Rajput likes this.

Sanjay Rathod Roof Support is based on type of roof and size of tank. Genarlly fixed roof tanks
having small dia. can be self supprted roof or rafter supported. Again fixed roof can be supported by
cloumn support, truss support, rafter support.Also service can play the role, if corrosive service we can
go with self support roof. IF tank dia is big then better to go for rafter support instead of truss type, we
can save cost.

September 26, 2012 at 5:09pm Like

Arpita Shah refer brownell young book

September 27, 2012 at 8:23am via mobile Like

Prakash Rathi type of tank (based on roof structure) is selected based on the TVP (true vapor
pressure) which is based on the flash point...
(plz refer thr article "improve selection and sizing of storage tank" by A. heydari and H. kalat jari, Sazeh
consultant, published in Hydrocarbon processing, edition october 2006, page 95)

September 27, 2012 at 11:58am via mobile Like

Mihir Jha http://www.scribd.com/doc/107045904/Tank-Basic

Tank Basic

www.scribd.com

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Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.

September 27, 2012 at 4:25pm Like Remove Preview

Purav Desai Friends Thanks for sharing your experience.

But my main doubt is;

For storage tank on what basis roof supports are selected i.e. how to select Column supports or truss
supports for roof?

September 28, 2012 at 9:38am Like

Viral Patel
Hi friends,
I have an doubt regarding maching allowance provided on gasket surface of heat
exchanger tubesheet. If specification calls for m/c allowance on gasket surface, whether
we should add the same in extended portion (uhx-9) thickness or we should add the same
in main tubesheet thickness (UHX-12,13,14).
Consider a case where tubesheet thk required as per uhx-12 is 169 mm and extended
portion requirement is say 50mm. Here actual provided thk for extended portion is 170-
26=144mm. In this case tubesheet thickness is required to be increased due to
consideration of machining allowance?
Please share ur views.
Like Follow Post Share October 2, 2012 at 4:08pm via mobile
Purav Desai No need to increase the tubesheet thickness in all cases. Refer TEMA Figure F-3,
machining allowance shall be considered on dimension R2. For example if R2 is 7 mm for 4.5 mm
gasket then after adding machining allowance of 6 mm it shall be 13 mm. Now the final thickness of
extnded portion shall not be less than that calculated by UHX.

October 9, 2012 at 2:44pm Like

Viral Patel
Dear all,
Can anyone provide me the root area and dimension (i.e Rh and E value to be considered
for flange design) for bolt size above 4" or M100 as i am designing an exchanger having
size of 2500mm and pressure of 125 bar and same is not passing with even M100 bolt.
Please help.
Like Follow Post Share October 8, 2012 at 11:14am via mobile
Ankur Gupta likes this.

Ankur Gupta which bolt material u r using?.....October 8, 2012 at 9:23pm Like

Purav Desai Hi Viral,

I think there is no need to design flanged joint for such a high pressure and large diameter exchanger.
Instead it is better to opt for high pressure special closure exchanger (TEMA D Type).

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You will hardly find proven example of conventional flanged joint for such a high pressure service.

In exchanger design it is recommended to limit stud bolt size to M72 in order to make joint safe and
operable. The higher the bolt size more difficult to handle & obtain a leak proof joint. The case
described by you also exceeds the TEMA limit for diamter x pressure (10000 inxpsi)October 9, 2012
at 10:10am Like 2

Viral Patel Ankur,


Datasheet specifies SA 193 B7 material for bolt.
Purav,
I have gone through the database available here, there is no such exchanger with such high diameter
and pressure as you said correctly. Puravbhai,
I have found a solution , i don't know whether it is correct or not. But i have designed that exchanger
with reverse flange at front and rear end inplace of conventional flanges. Can we go with this
configuration for NEN type of heat exchanger?.....October 9, 2012 at 10:37am via mobile Like

Purav Desai as I remember there is one such exchanger in qpg project. check that. ask
utkarshbhai.October 9, 2012 at 12:32pm via mobile Like

Viral Patel I have gone through the same but that is modified DEU. But my question is " can we go
for reverse flange for NEN configuration.'' as per my opinion, for nen, tube-tubesheet joint can be
accesible and same is possible with this configuration as we are getting almost 1700mm opening for
accessOctober 9, 2012 at 1:58pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai As per me YES.October 9, 2012 at 2:37pm Like

Ankur Gupta Viral Patel for this high pressure, i have experience of using "lip seal instead of any other
gasket , with m&y =0..you can use reverse with lip seal keeping access opening for tube -tube sheet
jointOctober 9, 2012 at 10:19pm Like 1

Viral Patel Thanks ankur and purav for your guidance.October 9, 2012 at
10:50pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Ankur & Viral, As per my experience, for such exchangers there will be a pass paritition
box instead of conventional pass partition. With such configuration welded diaphram gasket is
preferred at channel cover..October 10, 2012 at 7:02am Like

Viral Patel I have worked on the exchanger where i have worked on both welded diaphram and lip
seal gasket. There was flour specification and it calls for welded diaphram gasket at channel cover with
C type front head for lethal service on channel side and for lethal service on shell side lip seal gasket
was required to be used on shell side..October 10, 2012 at 8:51am via mobile Like

Ankur Gupta Purav Desai Viral Patel Yes purav has rightly said. actually by mistake i typed Lip seal, it
should be Welded diaphragm.. & yes partition box will used instead of Plate...In KBR i am dealing with
high pressure exchangers, i could have given u the drawings but because of some patent issue..i
cannot... but yes i can tell u what i have learntOctober 10, 2012 at 7:56pm Like

Chetan Patel Viral with reverse flange u can design front end , but if you want to do roding of tube
without removig channel side which is necessary then your revese flange inside projection may be
obstruction. please check the cleaning requirement with process.October 11, 2012 at
1:12pm Like 1

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Mihir Jha
What is the difference between ASME B16.5 and MSS SP-44 for size of flange greater than
2 inch? If any one have the copy of MSS SP-44, please mail me at mihir.jha2@gmail.com.
Like Follow Post Share October 15, 2012 at 2:15pm
Purav Desai The Manufacturers Standardization Society (MSS) originally developed this Standard
Practice (SP) particularly in sizes larger than those covered by ANSI Standard B16.5 on Steel Pipe
Flanges and Flanged Fittings. It is on very similar line to ASME B 16.47. It can be referred for flanges
over size more than 10"October 15, 2012 at 4:22pm Like

Purav Desai MSS SP 44 2006


Editionhttp://www.ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/users/papers/engr/ernesto/bakerj5/Project/Supplementary%20
Material/Code/MSS%20SP-44-2006%20Steel%20Pipeline%20Flanges.pdf

http://www.ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/users/papers/engr/ernesto/bakerj5/Project/Supplem
entary%20Material/C

www.ewp.rpi.edu.......October 15, 2012 at 4:22pm Like Remove Preview

Mitul Patel
Most of client has requirement that "nozzle reinforcement shall not limit MAP or
MAWP".What is fundamental behind this.What will be problem if it is limited by nozzle
reinforcement.Please share your views.
Like Unfollow Post Share October 10, 2012 at 6:43pm via mobile
Mukesh K Prajapati likes this.

Rohitash Singh Panwar As per my opinion....since RF pad is not subjected to any internal
pressure...it just provide reinforcement to nozzle.....so client want us to calculate the MAWP for the
components which are subjected to pressure.....October 10, 2012 at 6:55pm via mobile Like

Viral Patel Mitul, i think that there no actual method for calculating nozzle MAWP becos same is
dependent upon so many factors such as pad thickness,local shell thk, nozzle thk, external loading,etc
and hence MAWP of nozzle is calculated by reverse iteration so we can't get exact value. So We always
design the nozzle for MAWP of component of vessel which MAWP can be derived exactly. This may be
the reason for client requirementOctober 10, 2012 at 7:25pm via mobile Like

Chetan Raval when nozzle MAWP is smaller than vessel MAWP, nozzle fails first rather than vessel. If
nozzle fails, the whole vessel becomes scrap. So client gives requirement that nozzle shall nt limit
MAWP. Meaning of this is we should design nozzle strong enough which can sustain atleast MAWP of
vessel. In that case after designed life cycle vessel fails first.October 11, 2012 at
1:04am via mobile Like 1

Chetan Raval it should not become that due to some weaker nozzle whole vessel becomes scrap. It is
not cost effective design.October 11, 2012 at 1:07am via mobile Like

Bikas Paikray I Agree with u chetan..October 11, 2012 at 7:41pm Like

Hemant Solanki Reinforcement is the area which we provides after removing material for opening. So
it is the combined effect of shell with RF pad which resist stresses at nozzle openings. To limit MAWP /

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MAP by shell means to do so we have to provide RF pad thickness atleast equals to connecting shell
thickness which is limiting MAWP / MAP. I do not think that RF pad of thickness less than shell
thickness will get fail. If it is satisfying UG-37 requirement than it is always fine. RF pad will fail if there
is problem is weld joint at nozzle opening. Otherwise to take pressure loading RF pad always have
company of connecting shell. So while designing nozzles with MAWP as pressure it should not be
happened that we are designing for MAWP which is limiting by RF pad (of thickness less than shell
thickness). It is of no use. So such requirement is there only to ensure that we are designing for MAWP
which is governing by pressure chambers only..October 11, 2012 at 8:40pm Like

Hemant Nikam THAT IMPACT WHEN HYDROTEST IS BASED ON UG99b,ie. MAWP BASIS ARMCO. has
the same criteria .SO MAWP SHOULD NOT GOVERNING BY NOZZLE FLANGE..October 16, 2012 at
10:23am Like

Hemant Nikam REFER ARAMCO CLAUSE AS BELOW, - Test pressure measured at the top of the
vessel shall be: (32-SAMSS-004 Para. 16.3.11)
a.) For Division 1 vessels per UG-99(b):
PT=1.3 MAWP (S/ST)

b.) For Division 2 vessels per 8.2.1:


Greater of:
i) PT = 1.43 MAWP
ii) PT = 1.25 MAWP (ST/ S)October 16, 2012 at 10:24am Like

Hemant Solanki Nikam,


In ASME codes also the same hydro pressure is mentioned.
As far as MAWP is concerned we can limit it upto design pressure of equipment. Not less than that for
email
limiting MAWP of equipment pressure parts..October 16, 2012 at 10:29am via Like

Arpita Shah
Why double wall type storage tank selected specially for ammonia service tank? What are
the special advanges? Share your views.
Like Follow Post Share October 4, 2012 at 4:57pm via mobile
Davoud Niyati Ammonia works in low temperature, and need a thicker insulation to isolate ammonia
from the ambientOctober 4, 2012 at 6:26pm Like

Purav Desai Refer the attached article. It has explained each aspects of using double wall storage
tank for ammonia in detail.. The main reason of using double wall tank is
Safety...http://www.uhdeindia.com/downloads/ammoniastorage.pdf..October 4, 2012 at
7:03pm Like

Hemant Nikam LIQUID AMMONIA IS UNDER LETHAL SERVICE GROUP IF IT LEAKAGE IT WILL
HAZARDOUS FOR HUMAN BEING SINGLE WALL IF IT TANK DAMAGE BULGE IT IS DANGEROUS SO TO
STRENGTHEN THE SHELL WE CONSIDERED DOUBLE WALL.October 16, 2012 at 2:27pm Like

Mitul Patel

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When to consider pressure thrust in WRC local load analysis?As per pvelite june 2001
newsletter refered in pvelite help it depends on type of support arrangement of piping
either it is anchored or expansion loop.please share your views.
Like Unfollow Post Share October 18, 2012 at 7:02pm via mobile
Hemant Solanki In that Paper it is written that WRC-368 shall be used when Pressure thrust is
considered. Pvelite has that option. Anchored piping will reduce pressure thrust effect and Piping with
bellow will give more pressure thrust on nozzle. So it is better to ask piping to analyse piping line with
anchored supports so that unnecessarily static do not consider the pressure thrust into design

email
..October 18, 2012 at 7:22pm via Like

Avedhesh Gupta I thought pipe support type will only cause increase or decrease in nozzle loads at
the junction and pressure thrust is due to the amount of pressure drop/resistance that is realized by
associated piping. It is very interesting topic and need debate.October 18, 2012 at 10:33pm Like 1

Mitul Patel Either we go for conservative approch & apply pressure thrust in all nozzles or for each
joint we need to ask piping person type of support arrangement.I spoke to piping person he told it is
considered when they give us actual load on nozzles when it is above specification loads.This way it has
been taken care but when we do not recieve real loads from piping than what to do.Does any one has
idea that this specification loads already including pressure thrust.WRC 368 gives pressure thrust
guideline but it does not consider local load that s way pvelite has given two different input pressure
thrust.what we do we enter local load and tick pressure thrust to have combine effect.I heard that
some engg. company ask for the only WRC 368 calculation for nozzle with blind flanges where there
are no piping loads but pressure thrust exitsOctober 19, 2012 at 7:46am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki .
Information about 'tr' used in UG-37 Calculation for combined loading

Dear All,

This is regarding UG-37 calculation of nozzles when its mounting shell thickness is
governed by longitudinal stresses. As per UG-37, Tr should be thickness based on hoop
stress. But as per code interpretation VIII-1-01-119, U-2(g) (means any acceptable
engineering method) shall be applied in case when longitudinal stresses are governed.
Here ASME has given application of U-2(g) instead of UG-37 because, UG-37 is for Area
replacement for pressure loading when hoop stress will govern. But when longitudinal
combined stresses will govern it is the moment of inertia which shall be adequate at shell
courses opening. That's why ASME has asked to decide it according to any acceptable
engineering method.

This will be the concern when H/D ratio is more and internal pressure is not high. Specially
in columns with less internal pressure when bottom courses are governed by longitudinal
combined stresses. In such cases it is required to consider Tr according to combined
loading.

Pvelite is taking care of the same. Even though Pvelite is using UG-37 but it takes Tr
according to longitudinal combined loading. So it is also acceptable as defined in U-2(g).

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Refer attached file. Follow steps mentioned in that file. It will then take Tr as per
combined loading in UG-37 calculation of Nozzles attached to shell where longitudinal
combined stresses are governing.

Compress has also implemented the same.

Mitul Patel
Dear all,

Can we use stress concentration factor in wrc 297 module as 1 inplace of by default value
of 2.25

Pvelite help says value shall be between 1 to 3.

Doing so we can avoid insert plates and increase in thickness in most of the case.

There is one tab for wrc 368.can anybody tell in which case it shall be used.

Pvelite help refer some coade news letter published in 2001.

If anybody is having the same please share.


Like Follow Post Share June 27, 2012 at 9:10pm via mobile
Rupesh Ubale I suppose stress concentration factor are used when there is fatigue or cyclic
loading...otherwise you must have it as 1...when fatigue SCF is normally calculated & then
applied......August 21, 2012 at 11:06pm Like

Mitul Patel Recently I came across TOTAL company's specification where in they ask to calculate
SCF(stress concentration factor) from PD5500 app.G.Can I use value of 1 if vessel is not in cyclic
service & we do not require to evalute peak stress for the fatigue analysisOctober 19, 2012 at
10:22pm Like

Hemant Solanki
Modified ASME B16.5 Flanges

Question : An ASME B16.5 or ASME B16.47 raised-face blind flange (or


a blind flange machined to the dimensional requirements of
B16.5 or B16.47) has its center portion drilled with an array of
holes to accept immersion heater elements that are attached by
welding or brazing. Is it acceptable for Section VIII, Division 1
construction to use the B16.5 or B16.47 pressure-temperature
ratings of these standards without performing any additional
design calculations as allowed by UG-44?
Answer : No.

Question : If the answer to the above question is "no," what additional


requirements apply?

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Answer :The design method of bolted circular flat heads is covered by


paragraph UG-34(c)(2), formula (2). When openings that do not
satisfy the provisions of UG-39(a) are present in flat heads, the
reinforcement requirements of UG-39 must be satisfied.

Explanation: Flanges, pipe fitting, etc. purchased to a reference


standard in accordance with UG-11 are acceptable for use
in Section VIII-1 construction. This means that the pressuretemperature
ratings published in the reference standard may be
used without any additional design consideration. One exception
to this rule is when the flange or fitting is modified or
altered. In this case, the dimensional standard's ratings no
longer apply, and the component must be designed in accordance
with Code rules. This is the essence of Question 1
above.
Question 2 addresses the design of the modified blind
flange. The rules of UG-34 cover the design of blind flange
absent the holes. Once the flange is sized, the small openings
are evaluated. Depending on the size and spacing of the holes,
UG-39(a) may provide an exemption from reinforcement
calculations. If not, then reinforcement calculations per UG-39
are required.
Like Unfollow Post Share October 22, 2012 at 4:19pm via Email

Mihir Jha
For API tank, when can we say that spiral staircase should be applied and to what
minimum tank diameter?
Like Follow Post Share October 17, 2012 at 7:38am
Purav Desai The more appropriate question would be what is the limitation on the use of vertical
ladder for storage tanks?

Ladders or stairways are used to access top of storage tank and its selection depends on the size of
tank. As per my experience, vertical ladders are applied to storage tanks with height less than 8
meters. Above this limit spiral stairway is preferred and applied considering human safety. It would be
very difficult for a normal person to climb a straight vertical ladder of more than 10 meters..October
18, 2012 at 2:52pm Like

Mihir Jha Purav Desai There are two variable one is height and another is diameter. In case of column
we have less diameter, hence we are going by caged ladder inspite of length. For tank if dia is greater
but height is less then also we can't go for spiral stairway. For spiral stairway we require more space. I
did not find any fixed relation between height and dia. I also do not get any spec. which tell the
selection of spiral vs vertical ladder. If any one have any guidline, please share..October 18, 2012
at 5:41pm Like

Kajasakthivel Narayanan Yes I agree Mr.Mihir Jha statement. In a project, project spec calls for
spiral ladder if tank height is more than 6m irrespective of dia. Unfortunately, we had a tank with 3m
dia and 8.2m height where angle between start and end of spiral ladder exceeds 360 deg. finally we

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raised this issue with client and client agreed to use vertical ladder with mid-landing
platformOctober 22, 2012 at 9:32pm Like

Purav Desai Dear Kaja, for the case explained by you, it will be called more as vertical vessel instead
of tank irrespective of its design code. I am also quite sure that such small tank would be shop
fabricated. When we talk @ storage tanks, such cases are very rare. Further I found Technip spec,
Chiyoda Spec and Daelim internal specification, all the three specification specifies only height as a
limitation to select vertical ladder or spiral stairway for tank.October 23, 2012 at 3:37am Like

Hemant Solanki
Weld calculation as per UW-20 for Caldded Tubesheet

Dear Friends,

Please take a note of following point while designing tube to tubesheet welds as per UW-
20 for Cladded tubesheet.

For strength welded tube to tubesheet with clad tubesheet, while checking weld strength
as per UW-20, following needs to be taken care; Specially when tubesheet cladding and
tubes are of different metallurgy. i.e. in DSS tubes with SS cladding or Incolloy with SS
tubes etc.

As per UW-20; fw which is equal to Sa/Sw. where Sw is lesser of Sa (tube allowable) and
St (Tubesheet allowable). This ratio is used to calculate groove weld size ar from UW-20
formula. Now for cladded tubesheet tubes are welded on clad portion. Sw is allowable
stress of weld. Sw is lesser of Sa and St. Sa is tube allowable stress. Now St which is
tubesheet allowable stress shall be lesser of base metal or cladding metal allowable. Now
to only take this effect if you modify tubesheet allowable as per cladding allowable stress
in pvelite then it will unnecessarily increase the tubesheet thickness. Which is merely not
required. I suggest we should manually check weld size ar , by calculating actual sw, and
accordingly indicate groove weld size 'ar' required.

Please note that this need not be a problem for SS tubes welded on SS tubesheet cladding
i.e. for similar metallurgy condition.

Views are most welcome on this topic.

Like Unfollow Post Share October 23, 2012 at 11:14am via Email

Hemant Solanki
why we commonly use only two saddles in horizontal pressure vessel ?

as using more than two saddles make pressure statically indeterminate both internally and
externally
what is the mean of statically indeterminate ??

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when number of unknowns exceeds the number of equations to find horizontal and
vertical forces this type of condition is called statically indeterminate
what is the degree of indeterminacy ??
the number of unknowns that are more than the number of equations are called degree of
indeterminacy.

degree of indeterminacy = number of unknowns - number of equations


Like Unfollow Post Share October 25, 2012 at 9:48am via Email
Shreya Dhawde, Sachin Pawar, Yashwant Yadav and 2 others like this.

Hemant Solanki
Prestress flange check in Pvelite

Very simple to check this requirement in Pvelite. In Pvelite while modeling non-standard
flange. Just click on bolting material allowable stress menu and edit bolt allowable stress
at room temperature Sa equals to prestress value i.e. 345 Mpa or 276 Mpa. And run this
file. Pvelite will calculate prestress bolt load as W= Sa X Ab which will be the governing
case. Only caution that when design pressure is more before checking into prestress
condition just check design as per normal design condition. May be Wm1 will govern your
flange design then prestress load condition.
Like Unfollow Post Share September 17, 2012 at 11:42am via Email
Shreya Dhawde likes this.

Hemant Solanki While doing this just ensure that you tick mark use full bolt load (Sa x Ab) option in
flange design menu of Pvelite.

email
October 30, 2012 at 11:11am via Like

Mihir Jha
Complete drainage through low points without
disassembly of piping to avoid dead legs. What is the meaning of "dead legs". This is
mentioned in spec. for Ground flare.
Like Unfollow Post Share November 2, 2012 at 12:11pm
Madhusudhan Shetty since the liquid drain (HC condensates) needs to be routed to the ground flare
from different equipments. HC condensate accumulation at any location in the line cannot be tolerated
since if flame travels back through the pipeline (due to pressure drop) , there will be explosion scenario
at the locations wherever flame will come in contact with HC Condensates. Inshort dead legs means
and low points where chances of liquid accumulation is possible..November 3, 2012 at
3:47pm Like 1

Hemant Solanki Thanks Madhu for nice explanation..November 3, 2012 at 8:24pm Like

Purav Desai

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Dear Members,

I observed another interesting point in the same plant. The tallest column was painted
with different color. I did not observe such color coding for columns in refineries.

Like Unfollow Post Share November 5, 2012 at 7:10pm


Kiran Gawade, Shreya Dhawde, Vaibhav Mittal and 2 others like this.

Ruby Sahu this is aviation color code....just like stack....right??...November 5, 2012 at 7:20pm Like

Hemant Solanki Yes. I also think so.November 5, 2012 at 7:22pm Like

Purav Desai right but did u ever paint column for aviation color?....November 5, 2012 at
7:25pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki No. But I think on stacks and chimney we should check. May be on very tall column
which sometime might comes on structure may require it. For flight attendant one light always there in
heighted equipment. But I think during day time to highlight such structure this color coding is best
option..November 5, 2012 at 7:32pm Like

Mihir Jha
One of the vessel is internally coated with phenolic epoxy. Do this vessel need to provide
"Silica Gel/VCI/VPI" for internal rust prevention during shipment or storage?
Like Follow Post Share November 5, 2012 at 10:00am
Abdul Rasyid MK likes this.

Avedhesh Gupta probably yes and you need to take care in selection of media, N2 purge will be a
safe bet. Externally coated surface may not need but internal surface may always need rust prevention
methods even if it is coatedNovember 6, 2012 at 11:39pm Like

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Mitul Patel
Dear all,

Is it required to increase extended portion of thickness due to provision of collar bolt step
hole on bolt holes.One can argue that it is neither code or specification requirement.Please
share your views on the same do technically it is required to increase thickness.
Like Unfollow Post Share November 6, 2012 at 8:11pm via mobile
Purav Desai I think we have to increase the thickness because the resisiting thickness for bolt load
would be after the collar bolt step..November 7, 2012 at 7:59am Like

Hemant Solanki As per UHX-9.5 flange extended portion minimum thickness should be calculated. It
shall be without collar extended portion of thickness.
Others please share your view in this regard..

email
November 7, 2012 at 9:47am via Like

Mihir Jha Hemant Solanki I agree. The collar bolt step shall be added to minimum calculated
thickness.November 7, 2012 at 11:47am Like

Purav Desai
Dear Friends,

While checking anchor bolt design for removable bundle heat exchangers for bundle
pulling condition, mostly we apply 1.5 x bundle weight. There are very rare chances where
wind/seismic or other cases described by MOSS book govern.

Further for removable bundle exchangers, sliding strips/shoe are provided to ensure the
smooth assembly and removal of tube bundle from shell. Here due to friction between
sliding strips/shoe and shell, the total bundle pull load will reduce by an amount of friction
factor.

If we consider steel to steel friction factor as 0.4 then the bundle pulling load would be 1.5
x bundle weight x 0.4.

However, as per MOSS book, Friction between tube bundle and shell is not considered
while calculating bundle pulling force.

Please share your views, can friction between bundle and shell be considered in
calculating bundle pulling load?
Like Follow Post Share October 26, 2012 at 8:58am
Kiran Gawade, Mukesh K Prajapati and Shreya Dhawde like this.

Mihir Jha 1.5 is the factor similar to impact factor used for lifting lug. Please note that during pulling
of bundle the sliding plate and base plate act as an unit. Frictional force will act only when there is
internal force like expansion or contraction. Rohitash Singh Panwar Frictional Force = Frictioal Coeff X
Weight. It is not as u mentioned Weight + Frictional Coeff. X Weight. Please comment if i am
wrong..October 26, 2012 at 2:03pm Like 2

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Rohitash Singh Panwar Mihir u r right..about friction force...my interpretation is wrong...thanks for
correcting meOctober 26, 2012 at 3:40pm via mobile Like

Mitul Patel This was discussed in morning tool box and conclusion was that we shall not consider
friction coefficient because after few years operation there will be fouling on tube bundle.we can not
consider mu as 0.4 for fouled contact surface.so for conservative design of anchor bolt and pulling eye
bolt we shall not reduce force by multiplying mu factor.October 30, 2012 at 6:53pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai thanks mitul. But how @ that case when bundle is being removed using
extractor?...October 30, 2012 at 9:31pm via mobile Like

Vishal Patil No, its not required. 1.5 will take care of everything. 1.5 times is applied because when
you are removing the bundle after long service... most of the time a jerk is required to disassemble the
bundle from gasket faces if the jack screws not helping... even while loading the bundles in side the
exchanges with the help of crane or bundle extractor chances of jerk can not be avoided.. 1.5 will take
care of this all......October 30, 2012 at 11:01pm Like

Purav Desai Dear Friends,

I found interesting criteria given in PIP standard (PIP STC01015) for design of anchor bolts, saddles as
well as foundation for bundle pulling condition;

4.1.8 Bundle Pull Load (Bp)

4.1.8.1 Structures and foundations supporting heat exchangers subject to bundle pulling shall be
designed for a horizontal load equal to 1.0 times the weight of the removable tube bundle but not less
than 2,000 lb (9.0 kN). If the total weight of the exchanger is less than 2,000 lb (9.0 kN), the bundle
pull design load need not exceed the total weight of the exchanger.

4.1.8.2 Bundle pull load shall be applied at the center of the bundle.

Comment:
If it can be assured that the bundles will be removed strictly by the use of a bundle extractor attaching
directly to the exchanger (such that the bundle pull force is not transferred to the structure or
foundation), the structure or foundation need not be designed for the bundle pull force. Such
assurance would typically require the addition of a sign posted on the exchanger to indicate bundle
removal by an extractor only.

4.1.8.3 The portion of the bundle pull load at the sliding end support shall equal the friction force or
half the total bundle pull load, whicheveris less. The remainder of the bundle pull load shall be resisted
at the anchor end support.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47628945/PIP-STC01015-Structural-Design-Criteria

PIP STC01015 Structural Design Criteria

www.scribd.com

Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.

October 31, 2012 at 12:59pm Like 1 Remove Preview

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Akil Kazi To my understanding we should not consider the friction factor since during bundle pulling
sliding saddle will not move relative to fixed saddle hence no relative motion for sliding plate. Fixed and
sliding saddle in combination takes all the load. Please correct if wrong.November 9, 2012 at
7:56pm Like

Purav Desai
Dear Members,

During one of the vendor visit i saw CCTV camera mounted on a distillation column in a
process plant. I was quite surprized to see that. Does anybody come across top support
requirement on column for CCTV Camera?

Like Follow Post Share November 5, 2012 at 7:06pm


Arpita Shah, Kiran Gawade, Basheer Mohamed and 5 others like this.

Ruby Sahu what is the purpose of CCTV camera over there?...November 5, 2012 at 8:15pm Like

Basheer Mohamed really interesting..!...November 5, 2012 at 8:27pm Like

Manish Shukla I think it i for verifying actual vsual reading of pressure and temperature gauge
versus DCS reading because no body would like to climb hereNovember 5, 2012 at
10:28pm via mobile Like

Manish Shukla Also wrong dcs reading would trigger some other eventNovember 5, 2012 at
10:32pm via mobile Like

Mitul Patel I have seen similar CCTV camera in Reliance Jamnagar Refnery....It is also required from
the security & saftey point of view....In reliance team from mumbai also can see footage of this
cameras....Few of my friend climbed on the floating roof tank with out permission of plant
person...Thery were caught in CCTV camera....Imagine any worker fall down due to inhale of wet H2S
or any fire incident....CCTV will help in this way also.November 10, 2012 at 1:27pm Like 1

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Page 56 of 390

Krunal Solanky
hello guyz. . .
Generally in skirt supported vessel design we calculate d dia of anchor bolt n qty. But as
per my knowledge we cant provide d length. .bcz it depends on d foundation properties n
bonding strength f concrete used. . Bt is there any thumb rule or methodology 4 a quick
calc 4 length. . .
Like Unfollow Post Share November 11, 2012 at 9:14pm via mobile
Hemant Solanki Krunal, if anchor bolts supply is in Vendors scope then it is required to specify
anchor bolt length for procurement. Here also static department can not decide whole length. We can
only estimate length of anchor bolt which will be above ground. General thumb rule is anchor chair
total height (including site welded washer) + 2 nuts height + 2 to 3 threads kept for better tightening
purpose. Still we should ask Civil for their anchor bolt standard drawing where exact consideration will
be covered. Now length of anchor bolt below concrete is entirely depends on Civil foundation
calculation. According to foundation type considered by Civil and according to loading data supplied by
Static, Civil calculates how much is the length required below concrte for better foundation strength
and stability of equipment. Depending on this we can find out the total enchor bolt length required. Still
when anchor bolt procurement is in Vendors scope at that time it is also required to forward anchor
bolth standard civil drawing to Vendor.
When anchor bolts procurement is in Civil scope then it is not a question for Static to decide its length
as we are not using anchor bolt length in any of our design.November 12, 2012 at
email
9:09am via Like 1

Purav Desai uploaded a file.


Hello Members,

Recently I came across a new terminology called "TEXAS TOWERS". It is used for vertical
feed/effluent exchanger which is commonly found near reactor. It is common in Hydro
treating(NHT, DHDT) plants.

I didn't get information @ its name "TEXAS TOWER". Only found the following article.

Please share some details if available.


Like Unfollow Post Share November 15, 2012 at 5:03pm
Hemant Solanki Purav, It is first time we are hearing this term used for any exchanger. Thanks for
informing. I have also searched it on net. What i can summarise is as below.
Texas Tower is the name given to tall vertical combined feed/ effluent
service exchangers which are common in refineries throughout the world. they are usually critical items
in the plant operation, in continuous operation and throughput limiting. The special design of those
heat exchangers ensures that minimum heat loss occurs in order to minimise the fuel consumption of
the furnaces. A CCR typically contains a feed/effluent heat exchanger (Texas Tower or Packinox), 4
furnaces,4 reactors, a regenerator, overhead recontacting section, net gas compressor, recycle gas
compressor and a stabiliser column. The Continuous Catalytic Reforming unit or better known as CCR
Platformer is licensed by UOP,Universal Oil Products, based in USA. More recently, other technology
vendors have copied theconcept, one of the main competitors for UOP in this field is IFP from France.
There may be a failure of a dissimilar metal weld (DMW) in a Texas tower heat exchanger of a

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Page 57 of 390

platformer unit.So it should be considered during material selection of the sameNovember 15, 2012
at 6:52pm Like

Arpita Shah
How to select the bellow (thin type or thick type) type?
Like Unfollow Post Share November 15, 2012 at 8:09pm via mobile

Hemant Solanki Heat Exchanger shell bellows are used on fixed tube sheet heat exchangers. Bellows
deflection is only axial and can be either extension or compression depending on the differential
expansion of shell and tubes. In most cases the tubes are hotter than the shell, moreover tube material
is sometimes high alloy, i.e. Stainless steel or nickel alloy, which expands about 50% more than carbon
steel. Design of heat exchangers is covered by the TEMA1 standards and ASME Sec VIII. Div1.

Heavy Wall Bellows


Heat exchanger shell bellows can be heavy wall flanged and flued bellows. Design of such Bellows is
covered by ASME Sec VIII Div 1, Appendix CC. Heavy wall bellows are rugged, generally having a wall
thickness equal or near to the shell wall. Because of material thickness, no cover is necessary. The
disadvantage is that a lot of fluid can be trapped in these corrugations and a drain is sometimes
required. Those bellows are formed by welding flanged and flued plates together, thus creating 1, 2, or
3 U-Shaped corrugations. ASME Code inspection and U-2 stamp is required.

Thin Wall Bellows


Heat exchanger shell bellows can also be thin wall multi-convolution bellows, ring reinforced for higher
pressures. Thin wall bellows have no circumferential welds. For this reason a higher fatigue life is
expected. These bellows are more compact in OD than heavy wall bellows. Design of thin wall bellows
is covered by ASME Sec VIII Div 1 mandatory Appendix 26. Thin wall bellows can be formed by
expanding mandrel, roll forming or hydraulic forming. An external cover is required for these bellows to
protect against mechanical damage. Code inspection and U-2 stamp is required.

Either heavy wall or thin wall bellows can be designed to give a satisfactory service by calculation. It
should be remembered that the hydrostatic pressure and load (PA load) must be carried by the tubes
which act in essence as tie rods..November 16, 2012 at 11:54am Like

Purav Desai If expansion joint is required, the first choice would always be TEMA THICK TYPE
EXPANSION JOINT (Flanged & FLued) because of less cost, ease of fabrication, ease of design etc.

As per me, Thin wall bellows can be selected for following reasons;

(1) Fabrication Aspect:


Where it is impossible to fabricate thick bellow for example if shell side pressure is very high thick
expansion joint will have heavy wall thickness, and such expansion joint fabrication is impossible. For
this issue I talk to one of the reputed Korean Vendor & they informed that if thickness of expansion
joint exceeds 50 mm, better to go with thin wall bellows type expansion joint.

(2) Cost:
Where no. of convolutions are more than 4 or 5 better to select thin wall bellows type expansion joint.
For more number of convolutions, cost of thick wall expansion joint almost matches with thin wall
expansion joints..November 17, 2012 at 9:35am Like

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Page 58 of 390

Hemant Solanki uploaded a file.


Crevice free Tube to Tube sheet welds in Waste Heat Boiler
Like Unfollow Post Share November 19, 2012 at 11:43am
Purav Desai likes this.

Purav Desai Verygood article. To prepare such tube to tubesheet joint, inner bore welding is
necessary. It is often termed as IBW. Tubesheet will have a hub/lip with dimesnion equal to tube size
on shell side. Tubes will be welded to hub/lip using specialized welding machine. Welding is performed
by inserting electrode and filler from tubesheet face and welding will be done from inside of tubes.
Hence, when it is applicable vendor must be selected very carefully, e.g. PTR must be asked. I saw one
such specification by UOP describing the details of IBW.

November 19, 2012 at 1:02pm Like

Samir Jani
In my project one item is being designed by PV elite programme.
MAWP show message " MAWP is limited by Nozzle reinforcement". But as per client spec.
MAWP shall be limited by Shell, Head or Flange only, not by minor component such as
Nozzle neck , reinforcement pad etc...
unfortunately the fabrication have been finished and now client commented about MAWP
limitation......can anybody tell me how to solve this issue...
P.S.:All nozzles are without reinforcement pad.
Like Unfollow Post Share November 20, 2012 at 11:30am

Hemant Solanki Purav,


Insert plate can not be inserted as equipment is already fabricated.

Samir,
What is design pressure and limiting MAWP in your case?
Obviously limiting MAWP will be higher than design pressure.
So What I am suggesting is in user defined MAWP option in pvelite you enter design pressure as user
defined MAWP.
If your equipment would have not fabricated in that case we may have tried other option to govern
MAWP by pressure components..November 20, 2012 at 1:22pm Like

Samir Jani The Design Pressure is 7.5 bar and Limiting MAWP is 12.948 bar
As per your suggestion, I have entered user defined MAWP same as Design pressure.
Now I see the message "MAWP: 7.500 bars, limited by: DESIGN (user specified)"
Is it acceptable?.....November 20, 2012 at 1:33pm Like

Hemant Solanki Samir,


One more suggestion , What is minimum thickness entered in pvelite for dish ends? Try to reduce this
minimum thickness such that it shall be somewhat higher than calculated required thickness. i.e. if your
calculated thickness is 9.1 mm and you have entered minimum thickness as 10 mm then change it to
9.5 mm i.e. go near to calculated required thickness. It may work in your case and dish end may be
limiting component for equipment MAWP.

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Page 59 of 390

As per your actual data you can enter user defined MAWP equals to 10 bar. And accordingly specify this
MAWP on drawing and nameplateNovember 20, 2012 at 1:40pm Like 1

Samir Jani Head nominal thickness is 8mm. so, I was using finished thickness as 8 * .85 = 6.8mm.
but now when I entered min. thickness as 5.8mm. "MAWP is governed by Head"....is it valid? because
actual finished thickness is 6.8mm..November 20, 2012 at 1:56pm Like

Hemant Solanki Samir,


Just clarify below points in your case.
What is calculated head thickness ?
What is provided minimum thickness in Pvelite?.. I think this you have taken 5.8 mm as per your reply.
If your calculated head thickness is less than 5.8 mm than this is OK.
You can reduce provided minimum thickness in pvelite to 5.8 mm and MAWP will be governed by head.
Just again check.November 20, 2012 at 2:04pm Like 2

Royster Prajwal Cabral Hemant Solanki i totally agree with your suggestion, i just have on doubt.
Even thought we enter in PV Elite the head thickness nearer to the calculated valve (which in turn
causes the MAWP to be limited by head) . But practically the head thickness is more than that entered
in PV elite, so practically the MAWP will not be limiting by Head, although the calculation shows
otherwise..November 20, 2012 at 6:58pm Like

Hemant Solanki Yes you are right actual minimum thickness may be different after forming done by
vendor. specially if we consider Samir case. But its matter of limiting MAWP. So for that purpose in
calculation we are proving that MAWP is governing by head and not reinforcements. Again while
specifying MAWP just ensure that you are specifying MAWP less than MAWP of reinforcements. It will
serve the purpose.
For cases where we are initially designing there we can specify minimum thickness as per MAWP
limitation. So that Vendor can accordingly selects Nominal plate thickness.November 20, 2012 at
7:14pm Like 2

Hemant Solanki Purav,


How it will be deviation ?
Owner will always specify minimum MAWP which shall be design pressure. Maximum we can decide
according to condition.
If conditions do not permit we can limit it upto design pressure.
As here in Samir case, he can limit maximum limit to 10 bar as per values he has provided.November
20, 2012 at 7:56pm Like

Hemant Solanki In your case reinforcement pad is not provided so here Nozzle reinforcement means
Nozzle neck is governing MAWP.
What I suggest is limit MAWP of your equipment to design pressure in Pvelite.
In any case MAWP shall not be less than design pressure So you limit it to design pressure.
It will resolve this issue and Pvelite will not show this message.November 20, 2012 at 8:01pm Like

Samir Jani Hemant Solanki : in my case Head nominal thickness is 8mm so, I take finished thickness
as 5.8 and PV elite required min. thickness is 4.69 mm. Now MAWP is govern by Head instead of Nozzle
reinforcement...but I have same Q. as Royster Prajwal Cabral. we prove that MAWP is limited by head

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Page 60 of 390

because we input finished thickness lesser(5.8 mm) than actual (6.8 mm). can owner agree on that?
because previous revision of calculation show 6.8 mm as used thickness.November 21, 2012 at
3:47am Like

Hemant Solanki Samir, as I explained earlier as now your equipment is already fabricated you have
limited options. Yes Royster concern is correct. But you can explain to client that by manipulating this
design calculation we have still kept MAWP of equipment less tha...See More..November 21, 2012 at
10:34am Like 1

Samir Jani Thanks for your help.....November 21, 2012 at 11:05am Like

Royster Prajwal Cabral


Guys i know this is a simple question to ask, but i am a beginner in PV Elite.

Could you tell me from which reference does PV Elite calculate the C.G. of a Vessel. I have
attached a sample calculation in which the PV Elite output say that it is from the "First
Element from Node".

Is it from the end of the Head or from the Weld Line

Like Unfollow Post Share November 24, 2012 at 7:45pm


Hemant Solanki Dear as it is horizontal vessel this CG is calculated from TL of left side dish end. as
Pvelite is modelling from left to right for horizontal vessel.
so this distance is horizontal location of CG point. vertically it will be upto saddle height of equipment
for horizontal vessel. so it will conicide with center of equipment.
Always keep in mind that pveliet calculates CG from datum of the equipment specified in input data. So
in vertical equipment if you have kept datum point at TL of bottom dish end then pvelite output will
show CG location from that TL line. and if Datum point is specified at skirt base plate bottom then it will
show CG from that reference..November 25, 2012 at 5:56pm Like 2

Purav Desai Alternative easy & perfect technique is to verify the CG location by modelling vessel of
500 ID x 1000 TL to TL, with dished ends. Do not model any other attachments. (Any other simple
numbers can also be selected, for which you can calculate the CG easily) When you run, you will get
the exact results as mentioned above by Hemant Solanki.....November 25, 2012 at 6:42pm Like 1

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Royster Prajwal Cabral Thnx Hemant Solanki , Purav Desai, how about for a horizontal vessel with
Hemispherical head where the Tan is on the Shell.November 25, 2012 at 6:44pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Dear Hemant , for vertical vessel or column, pvelite shows the CG from the
first element from node....even if u changed the datum point, the CG value will remains same....please
check..and correct me if i m wrong.November 26, 2012 at 4:04pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
Local load analysis of Nozzle located on conical dish end - What should be Practice.

Hi All,

What should be done to carry out local load analysis as per WRC and PD 5500-Annex. G
when Nozzle is located on conical dish end.

In Pvelite it is not showing any option to carry out this.

Pvelite stand is correct. As WRC is for spherical and cylinder mounted nozzle. Also PD
5500 is also not covering cone mounted nozzle. Reason behind this is on conical dish end
when opening is there pressure distribution will not be uniform. So such analysis is not
covered in WRC and PD 5500-Annex.G.

Is it required to ask vendor to perform FEA for such connection ?

Share your views about what is practice following in your organization. What is Compress
software do in such cases? I think some organizations uses Nozzle-Pro software for such
analysis.

Kindly reply as we are facing this in our current project.


Like Unfollow Post Share December 6, 2012 at 9:31am via Email
Ashay Kadam Hi,
Theoretically speaking there is a definite need to do some analysis to check whether the nozzle and
shell thickness is adequate or not for nozzles mounted on cone.
As WRC or any other code / standard do not provide any guidelines to perform such analysis for
nozzles mounted on cone, FEA is the only solution.
However, considering considerable cost & time required for FEA, we often need to check whether FEA
is really required to be performed.
For big equipment with relatively small thickness doing FEA may be feasible and useful. But for small
equipment with considerable thickness such analysis may be neglected.
In small equipment just to have a equivalent system the cone can be considered as a shell having
diameter = [ diameter of cone at nozzle center / COS (half apex angle) ].
It's the same consideration which is used to calculate thickness of conical shell as per ASME. And
further WRC can be performed with nozzle diameter as major axis of nozzle cut in cone.
You may get some approximate results which you can check for available margin on allowable stresses.
If margin is less. Then go for FEA.
Ya, using NozzlePRO is a smart way to do this analysis as it will save your time required for FEA on

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ANSYS. Results are also quite realistic and cost is also less per analysis if you are using this software
extensively. It will make your life easy...
-Ashay Kadam.
L&T-CHIYODA LTD. (Mumbai).December 6, 2012 at 5:32pm via mobile Like 2

Hemant Solanki Thanks Ashay. I was expecting reply from you on this topic. ..December 6, 2012 at
6:42pm Like

Amit Mohanty Can any body can tell me what it does in compress. I think compress has in built FEA
software for such analysis but without that does it do analysis for local load by WRC or PD5500.

I think if the nozzle size is more and it is very nearer to cone to shell junction (App. 60 to 70 mm) like
in my case then we should go for FEA. But if it very far away from the junction then we can do it in
Coadecalc considering the diameter of cone on which the nozzle is mounted. But that analysis is also
not correct as the pressure variation is different on cone in comparison to uniform pressure in cylinder.
We can also do another thing that we calculate exact pressure at that location of nozzle on cone and
then use it in coadecalc for analysis..December 7, 2012 at 9:30am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
"Intergraph PV Elite webinar: What's New in PV Elite 2013"

Hi All,

Yesterday there was Pvelite 2013-Webinar. Features highlighted by Integraph spoke


person is as below.

* Code Updates : PD 5500-2012 Edition / Tema - 9th Edition / API 579 - 2007 Edition
implemented.

* Now Manu style will be Ribbon type (Same Manu as we see in MS Office - 2010
templates)

* Quick Calculation results / Text Highlight.

* Output Processor (Report list colouring- in report index wherever failure is there that
topic will be highlighted in red so that we can easily locate in which calculation error is
there / DXF and Rigging results directly from Output)

* Codecalc - All new version.

* Graphics : Colour code by thickness , material, temperature etc. (Useful in column


design)

* Print straight to PDF via Pvelite-PDF Printer. This is available in input, output, codecalc,
material editor etc. (This is useful in calculation report generation for record).

* ASME VIII-1 Fatigue analysis updated (From Latest Div.2 Criteria)..

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* ASME VIII-1 material database 1943 to 1974 is available in this version.

* Stainless Steel MDMT Computation.

* Complete exchanger MDMT computation. For both shell and channel side separately.

* Exchanger tubes can be design under differential pressure.

* Indian earthquake code, vertical acceleration component added.

In addition to this after presentation some questions were asked by participants. Which
were answered by Integraph spoke person. The same is attached herewith for reference.

---------- Forwarded message ----------


From:Hemant.Solanki@akersolutions.com
To:Hemant.Solanki@akersolutions.com
Date:Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:44:39 -0800
Subject:Pvelite 2013 - Webinar Questionair

Audience Question

Q: What is the Specific time PV Elite be released?

A: Very soon. It should be in December.

Audience Question

Q: How about EN 13445 in PV Elite2013?

A: We have done wome work on EN 13445. Scot may explan

Audience Question

Q: What is the Specific time PV Elite be released?

A: The program will start shipping January 2013.

Audience Question

Q: For clarity, was only the general metal loss upgraded to the 2007 API 579? What else
was upgrade to 2007 API 579 and what is the plan upgrade the sections such brittle
fracture, local metal loss and so on?

A: we have only implememted what was in CodeCalc, but to the 2007 version

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Audience Question

Q: For clarity, was only the general metal loss upgraded to the 2007 API 579? What else
was upgrade to 2007 API 579 and what is the plan upgrade the sections such brittle
fracture, local metal loss and so on?

A: Currently only Part 4 is included but Part 5 (local metal loss) and Part 6 (pitting) will
hopefully be released in the next version. We are considering other parts of API 579 but
that is all still in the planning stages.

Audience Question

Q: For clarity, was only the general metal loss upgraded to the 2007 API 579? What else
was upgrade to 2007 API 579 and what is the plan upgrade the sections such brittle
fracture, local metal loss and so on?

A: I should also clarify that Part 4 is implemented in PV Elite 2013. CodeCalc still has the
2000 versions of pitting and local metal loss as well as the 2000 version of general metal
loss.

Audience Question

Q: When printing to Word, each paragraph is separated with a Section Break. This is
inconvenient with inserting the report into a Word report (for example, the footer is
disrupted). I therefore have to replace all Section Breaks with normal hard returns, a
nuisance.

A: As far as I am aware, the output behaves as it always has, However, you can email us
for a change.

Audience Question

Q: will it be add some Chinese Code in the future?

A: Not withinn the foreseeable future

Audience Question

Q: The use of "kgm" as abbreviation for kilograms is not according to SI, is confusing, and
is not even the correct unit for weight (which should be Newtons)

A: This is a particularly toublesome issue forme. kg is MASS and should never be used for
force. You are quite correct, kg is the SI official uint

Audience Question

Q: Please add the possibility to open and close a file without saving any changes (for

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example to experiment with different input)

A: That is not possible at the moment. You should save the file under different file names

Audience Question

Q: Can the new verision analyze a vacuum jacketed vessel?

A: Yes

Audience Question

Q: Will there be an option to see the 2D and 3D views at the same time?

A: No

Q: can we do local load analysis of nozzle which is mounted on cone? (Question raised by
Manoj Nandwalkar)

A: WRC-107/297 is not applicable for cone. So implementing FEA for this in future version

Audience Question

Q: For items to be transported over sea, it would be nice to be able to enter a second
"seismic" load definition (i.e. ship movement), a second wind definition and use these for
a special transport load case (empty, no pressure). Now I have to make a separate copy.

A: shippint transportation is a problem. Polar momentum should really be considered, and


PV Elite cannod fo that.

Audience Question

Q: How do I attach the skirt to the shell stiffner ring.

A: That cannot be done

Audience Question

Q: Please is there any way that a platform and a ladder be added to a horizontal vessel.

A: yes you can if you select a cylinder element

Audience Question

Q: In terms of the QA manual that is shipped with the software, do you also include the
verification problems.

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A: Yes, they should be on the Program Files section of PV Elite 2013 under the QA folder.

Audience Question

Q: Are you planning to add the calculations for tubesheets with different edge conditions
or different material?

A: We need moreinformation to answer this question

Audience Question

Q: Are the QAfiles, either as pdf's or native mcad files available?

A: They are PV Elite output files, we don't distribute MathCAD files.

Audience Question

Q: bellow calculation as per TEMA 9th edition is taken care in Pvelite? (Question raised by
Hemant Solanki. TEMA-9th edition does not talk @ analysis of thin bellows as to avoid
unnecessary confusion in design method between EJMA & TEMA. Further, till earlier
edition of TEMA, for expansion joint design calculations were used but in latest edition
TEMA introduced FEA. Which is applicable for Thick type bellow. For thin type bellow we
need to use EJMA)

A: No. It is now done by FEA (For thick type bellow).

Q: Is Pvelite 2013 doing FEA for bellows? (Question raised by Hemant Solanki)

Question unanswered by Webinar. Shall be check in Pvelite-2013


Like Unfollow Post Share December 12, 2012 at 9:35am via Email
Kiran Gawade, Arpita Shah and Nadirsha Sahhabudeen like this.

Hemant Solanki
Queries about Tube to tubesheet joint expansion

Please clarify the below queries about Tube to tubesheet joint expansion-
1)when & why expansion is necessary .
2)Difference between contact(light) & heavy expansion and what its
range.
3)For strength weld is expansion necessary.
4)By expanding the tube what are the applications.

Like Unfollow Post Share December 11, 2012 at 10:53am viaEmail


Arpita Shah likes this.

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Purav Desai Please see reply as below;

(1)when & why expansion is necessary .


(Reply) Expansion is necessary in all cases because tube hole in ubesheet is slightly higher than tube
OD. So if we do not expand it will cause crevice and ultimately tends to leakage.

(2)Difference between contact(light) & heavy expansion and what its range.
(Reply)For Heavy expansion, normally grooves shall be provided in tubesheet as per TEMA RB-7.24.
Tubes will be expanded in such a way that it will flow in these grooves. In Heavy expansion minimum
5% thinning of tube thickness occurs.
(3) For strength weld is expansion necessary.
(Reply) For strength welded tube to tubesheet joints, contact expansion is necessary as explained in
(1) above.

(4)By expanding the tube what are the applications.


(Reply)Tubes are expanded using standard roller expander or sometimes using hydraulic expander.

Hope this will help..December 13, 2012 at 9:29am Like 1

Varad Jahagirdar
Can there be a Cross Flow Type - U - Tube Heat Exchanger?. If yes can u give in details
(Like, Design Considerations, Design Code, Drawings, Examples, Design Output if any)
Like Follow Post Share December 5, 2012 at 1:36pm
Kiran Gawade likes this.

Purav Desai Yes. Some examples of cross flow type exchangers are AXU, BXU, CXU, DXU, NXU. There
are no special mecanical design consideration for this. Cross flow type exchanger has multiple nozzles
on shell. Hence these nozzles shall be spaced at equal distance on the shell. Further while placing
nozzles, connected piping arrangement shall also be checked.....December 13, 2012 at
9:48am Like 2

Varad Jahagirdar Ok thx....December 13, 2012 at 10:09am Like

Harry Chacko uploaded a file.


Hi Purav Desai, please have a look at the attachment and let me know to do the design of
tubesheet using codecalc ?
Preview Download Upload Revision

Like Follow Post Share December 13, 2012 at 1:56pm


Harry Chacko BCDs are different for two girth flanges....December 13, 2012 at 1:58pm Like

Purav Desai The shell flange can be designed as per conventional method of ASME Sec. VIII Div. 1
App.2. For the channel flange which is using studs tapped into the tubesheet, no and size of bolt to be
calculated as per ASME Sec. VIII Div. 1 App.2. Remember for channel flange only channel side pressure

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is acting. Further for the engagement length of tapped hole, refer ASME Sec. VIII Div. 1 UG-43
(g)....December 13, 2012 at 5:29pm Like 1

Purav Desai Further for your case if tubesheet material and/or stud material is Stainless steel, there is
a chance of GALLING which can lead to thread cutting and eventually cause leakage. Also, I am unable
find the reason of selecting different shell and channel diameter. So, if you get chance, revise the
design and make it conventional one....December 13, 2012 at 5:37pm Like

Harry Chacko Thanks Purav Desai. It is carbon steel. And it is client design. but thanks for your
explanation.....December 14, 2012 at 11:16am Like

Mohamed Hussein
dear all
i have a question i need your help , my question what is battery limit ?
Like Follow Post Share December 17, 2012 at 11:40pm
Purav Desai Battery Limit is a physical boundary separating the process units. Two terms often used
in process plants;

1) ISBL: Inside Battery Limit: For an EPC project, all work inside ISBL is done by contractor
2) OSBL: Outside Battery Limit: All supporting information/resources outside of ISBL

Defining ISBL/OSBL is necessary to define scope of EPC contractor in terms of;

a) Tie In Connections
b) Feed Inlet
c) Product Outlet to Storage
d) Available Utilities at ISBL
e) Access roads......December 18, 2012 at 4:20am Like

Purav
Desaihttp://www.burnsmcd.com/Resource_/PressRelease/1572/FileUpload/OSBLConsiderationsforRefi
neryExpansionProjects.pdf.......December 18, 2012 at 4:20am Like

Pankaj Singla
For removable tube bundle heat exchangers, we can have tubesheet which terminates at
gasket OD or can have OD equal to mating flanges (tubesheet having bolt holes but not
acting as a extended flange). Where we these two different configurations?
Like Follow Post Share December 21, 2012 at 8:04pm
Purav Desai Hi Pankaj, the applicability of type of tubesheet depends on owner and as per API 660,
extended tubesheet shall be provided for bonnet type front head.

When you consider extended tubesheet, you will have to consider either collar bolts or tapped holes in
tubesheet for hydrotest purpose. In this case there is no need to consider test flange for hydro test.
The other advantage of extended tubesheet is channel/tubesheet can be checked/inspected without
depressurizing shellside.

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For non extended tubesheet (Typical EIL requirement), test flange may be needed. For tubesheet is not
extended as flange, design shall not be checked for flange bolt loads.....December 23, 2012 at
6:34pm Like 2

Hemant Solanki

New Year Post : Did you know these things about ASME ??

* If you have a question on interpreting an ASME code requirement, you can determine
the staff contact by selecting the appropriate code
committee's web page at: http://cstools.asme.org/csconnect/CommitteePages.cfm

* All ASME standards meetings are free and open to the general public. You can browse
all meetings at: http://calendar.asme.org/

* You can preview pending ASME Code Cases and Interpretations


at:http://cstools.asme.org/

* You can subscribe to ASME's quarterly Standards & Certification Update newsletter by
sending an email to S&CNewsletter@asme.org
Like Unfollow Post Share January 2 at 11:26am via Email

Purav Desai
Hello Friends;

Presently I am in Korea and these days are extremely cold in Korea. When I observe
negative temperature, a question came to my mind.

I will explain my doubt with an example.

Suppose that one equipment for a plant in Saudi Arabia is ordered to Korean Manufacturer
and is being fabricated in Winter season. In this season the material will be subject to the
negative temperature in the manufacturer's shop. Sometimes the negaticve temperature is
lesss than the MDMT of equipment. But when we decide MDMT, such temperory
conditions are not considered. For the plant located in Saudi Arabia, mostly equipment
MDMT is -6 C and all the materials will be selected according to -6 C.

So my question is does any additional care is required for such condition? Has anybody
come across any kind of material failures during such condition?

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Like Follow Post Share January 4 at 2:30pm


Krutika Shah likes this.

Mitul Patel Purav,I had came across similar daught few days back.What I understand from your
question is that while finalising equipment MDMT we consider only lowest site ambient temperature
and lowest possible fluid temp.and we dont consider shop lowest ambient temperature.Please correct
me.Here this shop lowest temperature will not create problem unless equipment is not pressurise.So
during shop hydrotest code requires hydrotest temperature shall be 17 C higher than equipment stamp
MDMT on name plate.Also note that unless you dont have pressure inside equipment only lower
temperature will not create any problem.so ASME requries name plate marking of MDMT @
MAWP.Refer UG-116 a 5.Hope I able to answer your query....January 4 at 3:34pm via mobile Like

Mihir Jha Gr8 query Purav Desai. Its interesting. My understanding is that during fabrication of vessel,
there is no pressure and the coincident ratio per fig. UCS 66.1 is less than 0.35. Hence as per UCS 66-
b3 , impact test is not required for MDMT upto -105 Deg. C....January 4 at 4:15pm Like

Purav Desai I agree with both of you. However I thought some different mode of failure. For example
the temperature is -16 C, and carbon steel plates whose rated MDMT is -6 C are laying outside the
shop. During fabrication, when we lift the plates using crane, some portion of plate will be under stress
due to its own weight? How to ensure that nothing will happen during this condition?...January 4 at
4:21pm Like

Mitul Patel Only low temperature will not create any problem here unless until there are not applied
or residual stress.Same is explained in defination of brittle fracture in API 571.I welcome views of other
group members.....January 5 at 8:07pm via mobile Like

Kajasakthivel Narayanan Hi purav, i totally agree with Mr.Mitul Patel. Due to exposure of plate with
negative temperature will not create any problem. material may reach its brittleness at the time of
exposure. Since the material is not under pressure, there wont be any problem.....January 6 at
6:53pm Like

Krishna Desai Right now I am working on SHELL FLNG. SHELL has revised the MDMT of all top side
pipings and equipments to -16 from 0 as during winter temperature in geoje city will be in negative &
FLNG will be constructed
& will sail from the same place....January 7 at 8:51am via mobile Like

Mukesh K Prajapati I am of the same opinion as mitul.....January 11 at 10:35pm via mobile Like

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Mukesh K Prajapati
Dear all,
While designing cone for external pressure which option from following shall be
considered?
1) not a line of support
2) both ends line of support
3) small end a line of support
4) large end a line of support
Like Unfollow Post Share January 11 at 10:40pm via mobile
Yogesh Pandya likes this.

Rahul Valand I have pasted an extract from Engg. Tips .com below,
After reading the below write up (though it is too long and though it is not exactly what u r looking for)
u wil definitely get some idea,

COMPRESS provides an option labeled "Junctures act as lines of support" (see Set Mode Options
dialog/Calculation tab). See Figure UG-28.1 for description of vessel configurations where cone-cylinder
junctions are or are not treated as aline of support. What does this option accomplish for the design?
When the option is checked, cone-cylinder junctions will be treated as a line of support for external
pressure. Normally, the junction must be reinforced to provide sufficient reinforcing area as per UG-
33(f) and Appendix 1-8. But when the junction also acts as a line of support for external pressure these
paragraphs require that the cone-cylinder junction must meet the stiffness requirements (moment of
inertia) of Appendix 1-8. If the junction does not act as a line of support then ASME specifies additional
requirements for minimum nominal thickness of the cone, knuckle, or toriconical section; see Figure
UG-28.1, Note (1).
(Note that even if there is a knuckle at the junction the stiffness requirements must be met even
though the reinforcing area requirements do not apply; see UG-33(g).)
The requirement for stiffness may dictate that the cone or cylinder thickness must be increased, or it
may mean that a separate reinforcing ring be provided. Any of these options will increase cost. On the
other hand, if the junction is not a line of support then the requirement of Figure UG-28.1, Note (1)
may result in an increase in the thickness of the cone as well.
The particulars of this issue were first presented to me a number of years ago when a designer found
that when the COMPRESS option was applied (junction was a line of support) then a stiffening ring was
required, but when the optionwas not applied then no ring was required and the existing material
thicknesses were sufficient as well; very surprising!
There was a difference in the analysis: when the option was active then the MAEP of the cone was
greater than otherwise. However, the MAEP in that case was much higher than that of the other
components and did not provide any benefit to the MAEP of the vessel. Thus there was no real benefit
to specifying that the junction was to act as a line of support, and in fact it imposed the additional cost
of providing the stiffening ring. This vessel on saddles was relatively small and the designers were
using something like 1/4" plate across the board for practicality, consequently they were not penalized
by the Note (1) requirements.
The second time I ran into this condition was for a very tall tower of relatively small diameter. Possibly
around 120 feet tall with 4 foot diameter. The small diameter permitted the designers to omit vacuum
rings without using excessive shell thickness (the thickness required by internal pressure was sufficient
to handle the case of full vacuum). A transition to a larger diameter existed at the very bottom of the
vessel.Again, the designers questioned why there was no change in plate thicknesses between the two
cases but that a stiffener ring was required when the junction was a line of support.
This second example sheds some more light on the use of this "feature" of the ASME Code. In this

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design the effective length of the smaller diameter shell was little changed between the two cases. In
one case Le ran from the top head to the upper cone-cylinder junction; in the secondcase it extended
to the line at the bottom head and included the additional length of the transition and the short bottom
cylinder. The length in the first case was so long already that the additional length to the bottom head
was notsufficient to materially change the nominal thickness that was necessary. But by permitting (or
requiring) the junctions to act as lines of support the upper junction was required to have a reinforcing
ring. Again, there was no benefit to this design to permitting the junctions to act as lines of support.
Can we draw some general conclusions out of these examples? Perhaps.
In both examples the material thickness was governed by criteria other than external pressure
(thinnest value for practical handling in first example, internal pressure in second example). The second
example was such that there was little effective difference in the unsupported length of the long
cylindrical shell section. Both ofthese principles might be considered when designing a vessel for
vacuum. But if the transition exists at some intermediate elevation (unlike the second example) then
the difference in unsupported length would be substantial (ie: the maximum difference would be by a
factor of around 2.0) and there may then be some economy in permitting the junction to act as a line
of support.
"Although this forum is monitored by Codeware it is not intended as a venue for technical support and
should not be used as the primary means of technical support."
Tom Barsh
Codeware Technical Support.......January 12 at 10:17am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Dear it is very simple. If you want to take credit of cone ends as a line of supports
then you have to satisfy inertia requirements at that ends. In order to do some time we needs to
provide stiffeners at that junctions. If equipment is long it is some time beneficial to take credit of cone
ends for line of supports. It will decrease min thickness required for external pressure design. However
some time it is cumbersome to adjust stiffeners at cone ends. in that case we should avoid to provide
cone ends as a line of support. and add stiffeners just some distant away from cone ends. it will also
work and will control min thk in external pressure....January 12 at 11:16am Like

Mukesh K Prajapati Thanks for your promp reply. PV-Elite help manual says that cone, body flange
and dish end acts as bulk head i.e. line of support (code case 2286). But since PV-Elite can not
distinguish between bulk head i.e major line of support and stiffening ring i.e. minor line of support.
Both the ends line of support must be selected. please share ur views....January 13 at
8:29pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki As you rightly said Pvelite cannot decide among which shall be line of support. So It
is on designer whether to take cone ends as a line of support or not. And in doing so we need to satisfy
intertia requirement as per my earlier explanation. If Pvelite wants to select both ends as a line of
supports then why Pvelite is giving option for No end line of support in menu ??...January 14 at
10:34am Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Different Types of Trays Model - Kevin

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Like Unfollow Post Share January 19 at 12:52pm


Rajani Mewada, Ruby Sahu and 2 others like this.

Hemant Solanki
Random Packing - Kevin

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Ruby Sahu, Kiran Gawade and Purav Desai like this.

Hemant Solanki

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Schoepentetor

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Hemant Solanki
Valve trays

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Hemant Solanki

Like Unfollow Post Share January 19 at 12:55pm


Ruby Sahu, Kiran Gawade and Purav Desai like this.

Hemant Solanki
Expansion Bellow

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Kiran Gawade and Purav Desai like this.

Hemant Solanki

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Column Internal - Sulzer model

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Hemant Solanki
PHE Plates and gasket arrangement

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Like Unfollow Post Share January 19 at 12:59pm


Purav Desai likes this.

Hemant Solanki
Spiral HE - cut view

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Hemant Solanki

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Like Unfollow Post Share January 19 at 1:00pm


Krishna Desai, Swapnil Deshmukh, Kiran Gawade and 2 others like this.

Hemant Solanki
Graphite Block type exchnager

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Kiran Gawade likes this.

Hemant Solanki
PTFE Lined Fittings

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Kiran Gawade likes this.

Hemant Solanki

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Hemant Solanki
Demister

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Hemant Solanki

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Like Unfollow Post Share January 19 at 12:55pm


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Hemant Solanki
Twisted tube exchnager

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Hemant Solanki
How to avoid expansion bellows in heat exchangers without changing type of exchanger ?
Like Unfollow Post Share January 13 at 12:01pm
Mitul Patel 1.If shell is failing then increase shell thk.

2.iif shell to tubesheet junction is failing than provide shell band.

3.If tubes are failing in buckling than check with thermal engineer we can increase tube thickness.

4.If it is due to steam out condition on tubeside than also do steamout condition on shell side this will
reduce difference in mean metal temperature

5.sometimes steamout condition can also be removed after discussing process group.Other members
can also add their views.....January 16 at 5:58pm via mobile Like 4

Sachin Pawar If tubes are failing in buckling we can add more no. of baffles after checking thermal
design to avoid bellow.....January 17 at 10:46pm Like 1

Purav Desai Additionally following can be checked to avoid expansion joints/bellows in fixed
tubesheet heat exchangers;

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(1) The MMT conditions given in datasheet shall be verified as per the equipment application.
Sometimes to make a stringent case a hypothetical conditions and/or MMT values were specified in the
datasheet. It can be discussed with process engineer or Owner and can be deleted.
(2) As I shared earlier, sometimes fluid temperatures were given in owner datasheet instead of MMT.
In such cases actual MMT shall be calculated based on given fluid temperatures and analysis shall be
done accordingly.

(3) When tube buckling stresses exceeds, before adding no. of cross baffles, partial support plates shall
be added at shell side inlet/outlet. If required, central baffle spacing can also be reduced based on the
available pressure drop on shell side. By doing so, in most cases tubes will pass in buckling.

(4) As I shared earlier, we can take advantage as per ASME Sec. VIII Div. I Part UHX 13.4(b) and UHX
14.4(c);

"Elastic Moduli, yield strengths and allowable stresses shall be taken at design temperatures. However
for cases involving thermal loading (loading case 4,5,6 and 7), it is permitted to use the operating
temperatures instead of design temperatures (see UG-20).".....January 19 at 6:43pm Like 2

Hemant Solanki
Fittings

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Hemant Solanki

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Hemant Solanki its bubble cap tray.....January 19 at 7:18pm Like

Hemant Solanki

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Ruby Sahu these are column internals?...January 19 at 7:15pm Like

Hemant Solanki yes it is random packing... lantern rings etc.....January 19 at 7:18pm Like

Hemant Solanki

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Column Internals - Kevin Model

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Ruby Sahu nice.....January 19 at 7:18pm Like

Hemant Solanki
Quick Actuating Closure

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Hemant Solanki
PHE

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Ruby Sahu likes this.

Hemant Solanki

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Ruby Sahu wt is this? FXlnt means???....January 19 at 7:29pm Like

Hemant Solanki This is new company in column internal. they had just name this internal like
that....January 19 at 7:31pm Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Scope of Div.1 and 2

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Like Unfollow Post Share January 23 at 4:11pm


Rahul Valand likes this.

Rahul Valand From where u have extracted this snapshot...


What my understanding is div2 can be used upto 15000 psi with no minimum pressure boundry....is
depend on service like cyclic ... I am still confussed what criterias they have considered to limit lower
pressure limit of div 2.....January 24 at 9:31am via mobile Like

Rahul Valand And what is the connectn betn pressure code and dia of vessel....January 24 at
9:33am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki

Dear,
This figure I have taken from UOP presentation. Its a UOP policy to decide construction code of any
vessel. We have to use it according to our applicability and situation. So it will serve only guideline
purpose.
Now as far as its interpretation is concerned. As we knows that Div.1 upper limit is 3000 PSI unless
additional requirements are met. above which we go with Div.2. However the practical limit is below
this value and Div.2 is typically used in this pressure range. As per UOP guidelines in this pressure
range ( between 2000-3000 PSI as per that chart ) where user should really take call from both codes
and according to cost of material, fabrication and inspection decide the applicable code.
Now why UOP has taken diameter as criteria ? its simple. thickness depends on diameter of vessel. So
for higher diamtere thickness will be more for same pressure. If you see for higher diamter above 1000
PSI UOP has specified Div.2. its logical that for this much pressure and higher diamtere. Thickness will
be very high. For such thickness it is required to carry out stringent inspection and also analysis. So

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Div.2 will be the best option. As Div.2 becomes more advantageous with higher design pressures and
greater thickness requirements.....January 24 at 10:25am Like

Mitul Patel
What is relation between UG-23(d)foot note 12 and earth quake and wind global scaler
factor input in pvelite loadcases.Are these terms are interrelated?
Like Unfollow Post Share January 24 at 6:07pm via mobile
Krunal Solanky likes this.

Hemant Solanki Key consideration of paragraph UG-23 is given in UG- 23(d). This provision allows
the general primary membrane stress resulting from either seismic or wind loading, when combined
with other applicable loadings of UG-22, to be as great as 1.2 times the code allowable stress. The 1.2
increase permitted is equivalent to a load reduction factor of 0.833. Some standards that define
applicable load combinations do not permit an increase in allowable stress, however a load reduction
factor (typically 0.75) is applied to multiple transient loads (e.g., wind plus live load, seismic plus live
load, and others). The increased allowable stress basis may be used for tension, external pressure, and
longitudinal compression under wind or seismic loading.
Now as far as Pvelite is concerned, we should take these scalar factors as 1. As we are already
increasing allowable stress to 1.2 times. If in other applicable wind/ seismic codes there are allowable
stresses limited then just check load reduction factor in that code. And that factor shall be entered here
as scalar factors.
In short either we should increase allowable stress or reduce wind/seismic loads. For load reduction
purpose we use scalar factors. Generally we keep it as 1. As allowable stress is already increased by 1.2
factor......January 29 at 3:11am Like

Arpita Shah
what is the application / function of bypass seal device?
Like Follow Post Share January 30 at 7:09am via mobile
Purav Desai Please elaborate? Which equipment, where it is specified?...January 30 at 7:53am Like

Arpita Shah For shell and tube heat exchanger...January 30 at 12:05pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai As its name, it is used to seal the bypassing of shellside fluid. For effective transfer it is
ideal condition that shell side fluid should contact all the tubes (In HTRI terms to maximizing % of main
cross flow stream B ). But it will not happen due to geometrical constraints. The sealing devices will
come into picture to minimize leakage through a bundle to shell clearance (Stream C) and pass-
partition bypass stream (F). Sealing strips are used at periphery of bundle to minimize leakage thru
bundle bypass stream C and seal rods are used to minimize leakage thru pass partition bypass stream.
It is to be noted that bypass sealing devices shall be located between baffle cuts. There are other
leakage streams also, baffle-to-shell leakage stream (E) and a tube-to-baffle-hole leakage stream (A).
Leakage thru these two streams are unavoidable. Refer attached figure for better clarity......January 30
at 5:18pm Like 1

Hemant Solanki uploaded a file.

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Column design : IS-1893 RSM

Dear All,
In Pvelite while designing column like structure always prefer to model equipment in
multiple shell courses. Even though if thicknesses are same still divide it according to 2.5
to 3 meter shell courses width. In seismic analysis (IS1893-RSM) it will help to give correct
seismic moment value. Please find attached an example showing comparison of seismic
moment between single shell course & multiple shell course with RSM.

Like Unfollow Post Share February 13 at 10:33am


Senthil Anbazhagan and Rajendra Sharma like this.

Hemant Solanki
Have you done Doughnut type excnager design.. Share its design procedure.

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Purav Desai Hi Hemant,I believe its doughnut type baffles not exchanger. These type of baffles are
also known as disc and doughnut type baffles because of its shape. There are two sets of baffles one
will be a disc and other will be ring looks like doughnut. I came across such exchanger couple of times
for VERTICAL EXCHANGERS. Once the licensor was HTAS and for the other time it was UOP who
specified such baffles for vertical exchanger. From mechanical point of view there is nothing much to

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be taken care. Just its thickness to be determined carefully by calculating unsupported span accurately.
Also, its location and which baffle should come first is to be finalized by licensee. Correct me if I
mistaken somewhere. Refer below links for some additional information disc and doughnut type
baffles....February 20 at 4:26pm Like

Purav Desaihttp://www.akersolutions.com/Documents/PandC/Mining%20and%20metals/Gas-
Gas%20heat%20exchanger%20InfoSheet.pdf

http://www.akersolutions.com/Documents/PandC/Mining%20and%20metals/Gas-
Gas%20heat%20exchanger%20Info

www.akersolutions.com....February 20 at 7:43pm Like Remove Preview

Purav Desai http://pb-ahtr.nuc.berkeley.edu/papers/09-005_PB-AHTR_IHX.pdf....February 20 at


7:44pm Like

Purav Desaihttp://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/92378/ESL-IE-88-09-
26.pdf?sequence=1....February 20 at 7:49pm Like

Ashay Kadam When disc & dougnut type baffle is used, there will be a ring chember which will direct
the flow of fluid coming in from inlet nozzle along the complete periphery of shell. In that case
adjusting inlet baffle space considering special arrangement of ring chember is important. In case this
inlet baffle spacing changes due to this, then corresponding effect of changed unsupported tube length
on tube & tubesheet design needs to be taken care.

-Ashay Kadam.
(L&T-CHIYODA LTD.)....February 20 at 8:18pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
Maximum unsupported length L consideration for equipment wouned with limpet coil

Dear All,
What should be maximum unsupported length L for equipment wounded with limpet coil
??
Can we take limpet coil dia as L ??
Because if we do not consider it then L will be more. and equipment shell thickness under
external pressure requirement will be more. Here external pressure on shell is internal
pressure in limpet coil. That's why I have asked L equal to limpet coil dia. One more
theory is as limpet coil is not continuous and its attachment requirement will not be as
that of stiffener it shall not be considered. Also I think it will also be difficult to prove
inertia requirement of stiffener for limpet coil.
FYI, ASME has not mentioned anything for this case. Only jacket ASME has covered.
Share your views.
Like Unfollow Post Share February 19 at 3:03pm via Email
Arpita Shah and Mitul Patel like this.

Hemant Solanki My question was whether equipment wounded with limpet can take unsupported
length with respect to limpet coil arrangement. In other words whether limpet coil can serve the

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purpose of stiffeners.
According to Non Mandatory Appendix EE it's scope doesn't cover equipment and limpet design if
vacuum presents in any part.
So according to discussions with seniors we came to conclusion that either provide internal stiffeners (if
process permits) or carry out FEA if we really wants to economise thickness under external
pressure.....February 24 at 11:30am Like

Hemant Nikam MR. SOLANKI PRACTICALLY VESSELS HAVING LIMPET COILS MAY NOT FAILED
BECAUSE OF EXTERNAL PRESSURE AS WELL AS INTERNAL ALSO............February 25 at 9:37am Like

Hemant Solanki Dear Mr. Nikam,


My question is if there is vessel with H/D greatre than 5 and limpet coils are there with vaccum
mentioned on shell then instead of providing external stiffeners whether can I consider limpet coils as
stiffeners ?? answer is as written by me after discussion with senior colleagues and studying FEA
results of the same.
Thanks......February 25 at 9:41am Like

Hemant Nikam Mr. Solanki, First tell me is it face by you or its your mind's question ? If it is
happened plz. check with Process and advice to change the sizing of Vessels and maintain the H/D
ratio lesser than 5 and increase one more vessel to satisfy process requirements. That is the best
Option than taking risk......February 25 at 9:58am Like

Hemant Solanki Dear Mr. Nikam,


It is not a mind question. It is facing by one of my friend who is doing limpet vessel design.
FYI, it is not possible to change vessel dimensions.
So as suggested it is either go with internal stiffeners or carry out FEA.
In doing so there is no any risk as far as design is concerned. On other hand we can limit thickness
under external pressure.....February 25 at 10:56am Like

Hemant Nikam MR. solanki, your suggestion for Internal stiffners is correct but check with Process
whether it is reaction vessel or Storage Vessel Generally Limpet coil is given in reaction Vessels and
Process may not allowed the inside stiffners ...it may change the fluid flow/contamination of old fluid in
new batch fluid.In Pharma Industries this type of limpet coil vessels are mostly used but inside stiffners
are not allowed because of the above reason...February 25 at 11:24am Like

Hemant Solanki Dear Mr. Nikam,


Yes your point regarding internal stiffeners is valid. Also internal stiffeners installation regards to
maintain tolerance is also difficult. But as I have mentioned we should check possibility for it. It is not
mandatory.
By any means if it is not possible to reduce unsupported length L, then we can opt FEA as tool to
predict behaviour of that equipment. If matrial cost vs performing FEA of that equipment is optimum
then it will be economical to perform it....February 25 at 11:29am Like

Hemant Nikam Dear Mr Solanki I am sharing my experience I have stagewise inspected/tested of SS


vessel with Half limpet coil without Providing Internal stiffners & supplied to One of the Pharma
Industry in India.I found Forming of half limpet coil from Plate and weld on shell and bottom dishend
and avoid from fauling with Process nozzles is very critical work..it is more critical for SS Reactors
/Vessels .Because of lesser shell thickness..chances of shell distortion also there . Check the types of
limpet coils
here..https://www.google.co.in/search?q=type+of+limpet+coil&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ
&sa=X&ei=UhArUa7lJ-eaiAfD5YGAAg&ved=0CEMQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=649February 25 at
11:52am Like Remove Preview

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Hemant Solanki Dear Mr. Nikam,


Thanks for Document and experience sharing....February 25 at 11:55am Like

Hemant Nikam As per SABIC Internal Stiffners are Probihited Except Internals Support rings for any
Equipments Even for horizontal Vessels saddles Stiffening rings, if needed, shall be attached on outside
of vessel only and formed an integral part of the saddle. Internal stiffening rings are prohibited So be
carefull while design of vessles for external Pressure with Internal stiffners and should be check Project
specifications as well as advice from Process Dept....February 26 at 7:08pm Like

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Hemant Nikam

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Dear all static Group Members,


Please note the below related to Pressure vessel design as per ASME SEC-VIII
Div.1
********
1) As per ASME SEC-VIII-Div.1 Cylindrical shell Thickness calculation based on
ID/OD basis in formula 0.6P/0.4P is mentioned , Some People are called as
factors /Logic to 0.6 and 0.4 ,but these are not factors,

Below is the Explanation how it comes in formula,


*************************************
As per Bednar Book this multipliers are thickness related (Mean diameter basis
as 0.5/0.5 both ID and OD) and as per code for accurate thickness calculations
these considered as 0.6/0.4 multiplier to Pressure it is similar for spherical
shell and heads thickness calculations...
But actual formula derived as per Bednar is as below

Cylindrical shell tangential governing stress


S= PD/2t =PRi/t
(Ri= Inside radius of shell, t= thickness of Shell)
S=P(Ri+0.5t)/t (Considering Mean radius)
after derivation of above equation
t=PRi/S-0.5P
and
As per Code stress and thickness formula based on inside radius approximate
well accurate stress formula of Lame's is SE=(PRi/t)+0.6P
& t=PRi/SE-0.6P
Where Instead of 0.5P ..0.6P is used and E is used for Code weld Joint
efficiency and S is allowable stress.
Same phenomenon is applicable based on OD as 0.4 P
********************************
My conclusion is
Finally Multiplier in this formula is not a assumed factor, it is related to mean
diameter/radius of the cylindrical shell...and to convert thin shell to thick shell
it cross the mean thickness as 0.6 from ID and 0.4 from OD .
If anybody have different view share with me.
***************************************************************
*******
2) As Per UG-37.1 (h) While calculating area A5 (PAD Width x thickness ) 0.75
factor is consider as area reduction this is because of reinforcing element are
made by different segments and that butt weld (full penetration) of segments
shall comply as per requirement of UW part.

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This multiplier for area reduction can be avoid if below one point is satisfied
a) Full radiography/ultrasonic of the full penetration butt welds
b) for opening in cylinder weld joint is oriented at 45 degree from the
longitudinal axis of cylinder.
But generally reinforcing pads used for nozzles are made from one segments ,
My questions to all
Is it required to considered the area reduction multiplier in A5 area
calculations.
***************************
Like Unfollow Post Share February 25 at 8:54am

Hemant Solanki Thanks Mr. Nikam for useful information from bedner.
As far as Factor / Multiplier is concerned it does not make any change in the formula as far as we know
how its derivation is there. Anybody can term it by any emans. At last it doesnt changes final effect.

Now As far as UG-37.1 (h) is concerned whatever you have mentioned from code itself contains
answers.
Code has mentioned area reduction of 25% in pad area A5 shall be considered in split pad as these are
fabricated from more than one piece and then butt welded and then corresponding NDT shall be
carried out. If that NDT is other than RT/UT then these reduction shall be applied.
And to take total area A5,

1. Full radiography / UT of that butt welds shall be done (as it is ensuring integrity of joint. here full
area of A5 can be taken). Or

2. Split butt joints shall be oriented at least 45 to shell long axis. It shall be done as it may happens
sometimes that nozzle lies on long seam of shell. Now shell long seams experiences major hoop stress.
So to avoid any stress concentration effect in that area. Code has defined to locate split pad butt joints
away from shell long seams. Thats why 45 limitation is given.

Now I will explain how this 0.75 factor comes to picture by above explanation. Refer Fig. UG-37. This
Figure is often misinterpreted or is not fully understood, and an explanation of the requirement is in
order. The area of reinforcement required at any cross section through the opening must be equal to
the shell area required for the design pressure that is removed by the opening (i.e., minimum required
shell thickness times the finished diameter of the opening). In a cylindrical shell, the stress varies from
the longitudinal plane to the circumferential plane; the circumferential pressure stress is twice as large
as the longitudinal pressure stress. Thus, required pressure thickness in the circumferential plane of an
opening (i.e., 90 from the longitudinal axis) is 50% of that required for the longitudinal plane.
Accordingly, the amount of reinforcement area required for the circumferential plane is only one half of
that required for the longitudinal plane.

So Factor F shall be determined according to opening axis with respect to long axis from Fig UG-37

Actual formula is Ar = d*tr*F

At 45 F=0.75, from Fig-UG-37 (i.e. Circum seams going to experience 25% of pressure that of long
seam at 45).

Now simple logic, if my split pad nozzle opening axis is at 45 to that of long axis then by any how my
Area removed will be 0.75 times of that of actual area removed. So no need to reduce pad area A5

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further.

If above points are not full filled than code has mentioned to reduce area of pad to 25% that is multiply
with 0.75 as per figure UG-37..February 25 at 9:39am Like

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Mitul Patel

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IS MOUNDED BULLET FOR STORING LPG IS BETTER THAN USING SPHERE?


AND WHY?

The choice between a bullet and a sphere is a matter of economics and project
logistics. So one is better than the other only in the matter of which has a
cheaper overall installed cost.

The sphere of course uses less material than a bullet for the same amount of
liquid storage but is somewhat more difficult to fabricate. The diameter for
shipping of a storage tank is in the order of 10 to 14 feet depending on the
method of transport. This would limit a sphere's storage capacity if it is shop
fabricated. For a 10 foot diameter tank, you can get 10 or more times the
storage in a bullet than a sphere. For this reason, you usually only see spheres
used for very large volumes (maybe in the order of 300,000 gallons or more)
because they must be field fabricated to compete with the bullet in cost.

For smaller storage tanks, the bullets are preferred because they can be shop
fabricated and more easily transported.

top

COMPARISION OF LPG SPHERES WITH LPG STORAGE TANKS:

1) Least initial investment and financial risk in case of LPG multiple storage
tanks of as compared to sphere of similar or larger volume.

2) LPG sphere of same volume needs more time for construction as compared
to LPG multiple storage tanks.

3) LPG Multiple LPG storage tanks makes the project faster, economical, easier
and will in turn help the company to start the terminal as soon as possible
which in turn will generate good immediate returns.

4) LPG Storage tanks are much safer since it weight is distributed evenly on a
larger area thus reducing chances of collapse as compared to sphere, especially
in small islands porne to earth quakes, cyclones and Tsunami as can be verified
from the recent incident in Japan where a row of LPG sphere went under severe
fire condition.

5) Multiple LPG storage tanks have an added advantage that the load is
distributed over a larger area thus the problem of uneven settlement / collapse

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is largely reduced.

6) In case of installations with Multiple LPG storage tanks if there is any


problem / maintenance / repair / breakdown of any one tank the outlet and
inlet valves of the same can be closed and the tank can be isolated, also in case
of emergency the LPG product in the tank under repair / maintenance can be
easily transferred to another tank located in the same plant thus increasing
safety of the plant. Whereas in case of sphere if there is any problem with the
sphere or its valves or pipeline the entire plant comes to a stand still (This is a
loss to the company in terms of business loss, product loss, as well as extra
demurrage that the company may have to pay to the shipping company if
unfortunately the LPG ship also arrives the same time when the sphere has
generated a possible breakdown). But in case of multiple storage tanks even if
one of the tank generate a possible breakdown and the LPG ship also arrives
the same time still the LPG from the ship can be unloaded to the remaining
tanks and the company will have to incur least loss due to ship demurrage.

7) Though there is a common notion that for the same volume a sphere has the
least surface area and least thickness and hence lesser weight and less cost but
our past experience suggests that weight saved in making a sphere as
compared to storage tank is lost as wastage in the development of various
sections (petals and crown) thus leaving little or no benefit of the weight
saved.

The fabrication cost increases considerably in case of sphere as compared to


multiple LPG storage tanks , since the sections have to be pre fabricated at
shop, shipped to site, adjusted, assembled and welded at site piece by piece in
proper sequence, heat treated, radiographed and tested at site. Fabrication of
sphere requires lot of time since the petals / sections are required to be
assembled piece by piece in proper sequence and completion of one stage is
entirely dependent on completion of the earlier stage as so on and so forth.
More over there is a continous requirement of close monitoring, blockage of
Like Follow Post Share February 28 at 6:52am via mobile

Mitul Patel blockage of manpower, machinery rent etc.

9) Sphere once fabricated cannot be moved or relocated from one place to another and if in case any relocation
(due to sale of plant or plant relocation) is required the sphere has to be cut into several small pieces and
transported to site and then reassembled and re-fabricated at new site this is as good as manufacturing a brand
new sphere at site and hence the after sale value of a sphere is much less and as compared to lpg storage tanks
hi h a e sold out for good retur sFebruary 28 at 6:53am via mobile Like

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Purav Desai
Dear Members,

It was observed that there was misprinting in TEMA Table CB-4.41. The baffle
thickness is specified as 5/8" (12.7 mm) for nominal shell ID (1549-2540) and
for unsupported length (914 ~ 1219).

But 5/8" stands for 15.9 mm.

This is minor point but can lead to wrong selection of baffle thickness.

Please take care accordingly.

Like Unfollow Post Share February 25 at 5:54am

Ramdas Kadam, Kiran Gawade, Salman Hussain and 8 others like this.

Hemant Nikam GOOD FINDING.February 25 at 9:33am Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan since, we use R class frequently.. this is set in our mind... but, thanks for
the info...February 25 at 4:16pm Like

Yogesh Naik change my e mail address to jdengineers11@yahoo.com....February 26 at


10:01am Like

Hemant Solanki Purav please convey the same to tema through mail.
Thanks for sharingMarch 5 at 6:15pm Like

Purav Desai I have reported misprint to TEMA and got reply. Refer the attachment for TEMA
replyMarch 7 at 6:59am Like

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Samir Jani
Dear Friends,
As per API 660 Annex A Para A.2.2.1 "for U tube type bundles, if the mean bend
radius is less than three times the tube outside diameter, the tube wall
thickness should be increased to compensate for thinning in bends. such
thinning can be as much as 17%"
this means if U bend radius is less than 3 times tube OD, do we need to
increase tube wall thickness as 17% ?..is it mandatory?
Like Follow Post Share March 11 at 3:01pm

Harry Chacko likes this.

Purav Desai thinning for small radius u bends is common. thinning of small radius u bends shall be
calculated as per TEMA. If it is more than 17% then tube thickness shall be increased. however as per
my experience for each and every material the u bend manufacturing company has standard
procedures and they will ensure that thinning at small bends never exceed 17%. So when u purchase u
bends this is one of the condition to be specified in requisition..March 11 at 10:53pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
weep hole requirement in Shell DEP.

As per shell standard weep holes shall not be provided on pass partition plate.
Can anybody knows why such requirement is given in shell DEP??

Like Unfollow Post Share March 15 at 7:15pm via Email

Purav Desai this is very recent change in DEP. as per my understanding as per TEMA req. all high and low
points in exchanger shall be provided with vent and drain if not vented and drained by other means. now with
this we must provide weep hole in partition plate. 6 mm weep hole is small and doesnot cause any impact on
performance. My other view point of not providing weep hole is in case of corrosive fluids such small hole can be
a starting point for crack for atio .March 16 at 3:15pm via mobile Like 1

Hemant Nikam Reason Given by Purav also correct as corrosive fluids, another reason may be High temp.
Fluid from Tubeside. while starting of Process tubeside inlet fluild with high temp may directly pass through
weep hole and that may change the process condition to the next equipment.this generally applicable for
distillatio olu s heat E h agers here i or te p. differe e a ause the produ t failure March 18 at
12:39pm Like

Samir Jani
Dear Friends,
I would like to know fabrication sequence of NFU type exchanger. If anybody
have experience with NFU type please share their idea about fabrication.
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Yashwant Naik likes this.

Purav Desai NFU is a fixed tubesheet exchanger with tubesheet integral with shell and channel both
with longitudinal baffle on shell side.

It is recommended to use welded longi. Baffle for fixed tubesheet exchangers. However welded long.
Baffle will create lots of difficulties in fabrication.

Hence in order to simplify the fabrication gasketed long. Baffle is used. In this case it will be part of
bundle.

The fabrication sequence would be;

1. Keep the channel ready.


2. Assemble a bundle. Long baffle shall be welded to cross baffles and gaskets shalk be bolted.
3. Weld the channel with tubesheet.
4. Weld the shell with tubesheet.

Others may add/correct further.March 19 at 4:33pm via mobile Like

Hemant Nikam But in which case the Longitudinal baffle is welded to shell ? Fixed Tubesheet at both
end.BFM,AFM,NFN type ?...March 19 at 7:47pm Like

Purav Desai It can be welded to shell for fixed tubesheet exchangers provided proven fabrication
technique is available. One of the fabrication method is to make shells in two longitudinal halves.
Assemble tube bundle in the bottom of long bafgle first then on the top side and then weld the top half
of shell. This looks quite simple but not simple for fabrication.

Members working with fabricators can share some more details.March 19 at 8:09pm via mobile Like

Hemant Nikam What about the single segmental baffles? how that will installed /attached with the
longitudinal baffle?...March 19 at 9:45pm Like

Hemant Nikam Because of the same questions Mr. Jani may be raised the above query for fixed U
tubesheet with F shell arrangement .************************ Below are my views for longitudinal
baffle welded to main shell. Removal l U tube bundle*** Below is the condition:- For tubes
arrangement in horizontal plane and other baffles shall be in double segmental but in vertical condition
with slot for bundle removal can be possible. and for Fixed tubesheet with lesser segmentle baffle
assembly will be done similar to the normal. ****************************** But generally this
may be avoided due to complicated fabrication.better way provide lamiflex strips at the end of
longitudinal baffle to seal the shell and longitudinal baffle gap.March 19 at 9:56pm Like

Samir Jani Dear Mr. Purav and Mr. Hemant thanks for your reply. As per client requirement Longi.
baffle should be welded to shell. So, the problem with fabrication is (1) it is very difficult to weld longi.
baffle to shell because of smaller dia. of shell (720 ID x 6 mtr.). (2)it is difficult to insert tubes and tie
rod in to the tubesheet due to longer length of shell (6mtr.). if any other members have any idea
please share....March 20 at 2:22pm Like

Purav Desai Hi Samir, its the case which I mentioned in my first reply. If Owner does not agree to
change it to gasketed type then as per me one option is available. Instead of considering flat
longitudinal baffle, consider a small welding lip on both ends on long side of baffle. Additionally shell
shall be made in two halves. With this bundle can be assembled as per normal procedure and after that

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two halves of shell can be welded to longitudinal baffle. Refer attached figure.March 20 at
2:40pm Like

Hemant Nikam If there are segmentle baffles then how that U tubes will pass/Installed as per
drawing shown by Purav ?that may possible if U tubes arrangement in horizontal plane without
segmentle baffles /with only Vertical segmentle baffles by providing groove on it to pass through the
long baffle.it is very difficult to weld tubsheet to main shell with installing tubes.March 20 at
5:06pm Like

Purav Desai
Welded in lobgitudinal baffle.

Like Follow Post Share March 20 at 2:44pm near Bulsar, Gujarat

Kiran Gawade and Samir Jani like this.

Samir Jani Thanks for your suggestion..let me check this option with fabrication team....March 20 at
2:47pm Like

Purav Desai Check its connection at tubesheet end. I have a little doubt there.March 20 at
2:49pm via mobile Like

Patel Sajit Purav


As per fighure shown, For this type of configuration forged matl( for long. baffle) to be used because of
lip.
It is better to weld shell in two half directly with baffle with FPW welding.March 20 at
3:12pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Agreed but considering shell as main pressure bearing component my suggestion is for
lip type to achieve butt weld.March 20 at 3:17pm via mobile Like

Hemant Nikam Purav as per above drawing tell the procedure of fabrication/Installing Tubes.March
20 at 5:08pm Like

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Purav Desai Dear Hemant Nikam, all the bundles were made outside first. By following above its
same. Its highly difficult for me to explain it in words. May be mr. Samir Jani will shoot a video and you
can understand.further bundle assembly procedure variew from vendor to vendorMarch 20 at
5:20pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai 1. Install tie rods in the tubesheet.


2. Install 1st spacers and long baffles.
3. Cross baffles shall be made in two piece. Start installing it one by one.
4. Start installing tubes from inner most rows.
5. Once full bundle assembly is completed weld two halves of shell.

Above is my understanding it may be different based on vendor own procedure.March 20 at


5:28pm via mobile Like

Hemant Nikam One more point if double segmentle baffle are with horizontal cut ,shell side fluid may
block upto the longitudinal baffle area.to avoid this we have to provide rectangular hole to alternate
baffle top and bottom portion ...& check unsupported tubelength ..should not exceed than the
permissible.March 20 at 6:22pm Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Purav Desai... good thought actually. But, i would say what Patel Sajit had
said... our average tube length is 6m and the cost of the Longitudinal baffle will be high. also, the
weight of the equipment would increase. If you wanted to use Longitudinal baffle thick as same as
Baffle thick, forging itself is a big problem. Think what if the shell thick is high. Say the long baffle is 12
thick and shell lip is around 40, for 6m. The shop people will curse us..... overall this will not be
economical and not easy to fabricate......March 21 at 1:26pm Like

Hemant Nikam I AGREED WITH MR. PRABHAKARS COMMENTS--BETTER OPTION LONGITUDINAL


BAFFLES WITH LAMIFLEX SEALING STRIPS BOTH ATTACHED WITH TUBE BUNDLE AS BOLTING
ARRANGEMENT.March 21 at 2:54pm Like 1

Purav Desai Guys, I am not emphasizing to use the configuration i suggested. IF you read Samir's
earlier post on the same topic. He clearly mentioned that owner's requirement is welded type long.
baffle and as per me i see the suggested option. Prabhakar Harikrishnan, have u ever come across a
welded longitudinal baffle? What solution you have adopted in such case?...March 24 at 7:42pm Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Yes Purav Desai.. we have done some welded long baffle type. what we
have done is weld shell in 2 halves. may be the welding type varry from spec to spec... As far as im
concerned, the factor that is required in thermal design will decide welded long baffles. if pressure drop
is allowed, we go for lamiflex type or any other seal type (non welded). If thermal requirement is no
allowing the pressure drop through long baffle clearance, then the mechanical has to go for welded
type, arresting the flow on the sides. the option you suggest is good one, but, i was just saying the
difficulties in shops.....March 24 at 9:13pm Like 2

Purav Desai Agreed with u Prabhakar Harikrishnan. Thanks.March 25 at 4:11am Like

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Hemant Solanki
tubes sagging

why the exchanger tubes sagging ?


Is any one knows the possible reasons of tube sagging?
Like Unfollow Post Share March 26 at 9:55am via Email

Purav Desai Good one. I have heard this term for the first time. However there could be following reasons for
tube sagging in heat exchangers;

(1) Soft tube materials (lower yield points) like non ferrous tubes with relatively lower tube thickness (less than
1.65 mm). Thickness for finned tubes at root diameter is normally lower and it may cause such issues.
(2) Large inlet and outlet baffle spacing i.e. long unsupported tube spans.
I proper i pi ge e t prote tio . Large shell side i let elo ities..March 26 at 7:04pm Like

Mitul Patel
Dear group members,

Does U-1(g)(2)(a) covers all kind of heat exchangers including kettle type
reboiler where steam is generating on shell side?

Does U-1(g)(2)(3) applicable for vessels only & not for heat exchangers in
which steam is generating & being extracted?

If sulphur condenser which is basically TEMA type NKN heat exchanger in


which steam is generated on shell side of heat exchanger.This steam is
withdrawn for external use.
Does as per U-1(g)(2)(3) this equipment is classifed as "Unfired Steam
Boilers"?

Please note U-1(g)(2)(3) "Vessels in which steam is generated but not


withdrawn for external use"
Does this word vessels includes heat exchanger also?or it is applicable only for
vessels?

If we consider this equipment as unfired steam boilers than as per UW-2(c) full
radiography and PWHT is mandatory.

Please share your views.


Like Unfollow Post Share March 29 at 4:07pm via mobile

Purav Desai and Tejas Shah like this.

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Hemant Solanki One of the scope provisions of Section VIII, Division 1, that is
often misunderstood is given in paragraph U-1(g). This paragraph
states, The following pressure vessels in which steam is generated
shall be constructed with the rules of this Division:
(1) vessels known as evaporators or heat exchangers;
(2) vessels in which steam is generated by the use of heat resulting
from the operation of a processing system containing a
number of pressure vessels such as used in the manufacture
of chemical and petroleum products.
Many petrochemical processing units have steam generation as an
integral part of their processing scheme. Steam may be generated in
steam-generating heat exchangers by heat transfer from the process
fluid. Steam- generating heat exchangers may be in the convection
section of a fired process heater, or in the processing area where
steam is generated by the transfer of heat from the process stream.
Vessels generating steam in such units fall under the scope of
Section VIII, Division 1. For example, the steam-generating components
of a pyrolysis unit used for the manufacture of ethylene or the
steam-generating components of a hydrocarbon reforming unit used
in the manufacture of ammonia and hydrogen should be constructed
to the rules of Section VIII, Division 1. The rules of this division
may be applied even though the heat to generate the steam may be
from a fired process heater. The heat generated in the process heater
is required to cause a chemical reaction, and the residual heat of
combustion is recovered to generate steam..March 29 at 6:48pm Like

Hemant Solanki Interpretation: VIII-1-83-104


Subject: Section VIII-1, U-1(g) and Section I, Preamble
Date Issued: March 4, 1983
File: BC79-780
Question: U-1(g) of Section VIII, Division 1, states:
Unfired steam boilers as defined in Section I shall be constructed
in accordance with the rules of Section I or this
Division [see UG-125(b) and UW-2(c)]. The following pressure
vessels in which steam is generated shall be constructed
in accordance with the rules of this Division:
(1) vessels known as evaporators or heat exchangers;
(2) vessels in which steam is generated by the use of heat resulting
from operation of a processing system containing a
number of pressure vessels, such as used in the manufacture
of chemical and petroleum products.
Are these provisions in conflict with the third from the last
paragraph of the Preamble of Section I?
Reply: No, as illustrated by reasons as follows:
(a) The definitions of pressure vessels in which steam is generated,
but which are not unfired steam boilers, are identical
in both Sections I and VIII. Such vessels are not within the
Scope of Section I. They are within the Scope of Section VIII,
and the special rules applicable to unfired steam boilers,
such as UW-2(c), are not required.
(b) The second from the last paragraph of the Preamble of Section
I requires unfired steam boilers to be constructed in accordance

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with its rules or the applicable rules of Section VIII.


(c) As quoted in the Question, Section VIII requires unfired
steam boilers to be constructed in accordance with its special,
applicable rules, such as UW-2(c).
We caution you that the laws or regulations at the point of
installation may dictate the construction. As indicated by footnote
1 to U-1 Scope of Section VIII, such laws or regulations
should be reviewed to determine requirements that may be different
or more restrictive than the Code rules. Some applicable
laws or regulations may require such vessels to be constructed
either with the provisions of UW-2(c) applied or under the rules
of Section I.March 29 at 6:54pm Like

Hemant Solanki Interpretation: VIII-1-86-201


Subject: Section VIII, Division 1, U-1(g)
Date Issued: January 25, 1988
File: BC87-486
Question (1): Are vessels in which steam is generated as
described in U-1(g), except those known as an unfired steam
boilers, required to meet the special requirements of UG-
116(d), UG-125(b), and UW-2(c)?
Reply (1): No.
Question (2): If the reply to Question (1) is no, who determines
if a vessel as described in U-1(g) is defined as an
unfired steam boiler or one of the other vessels in which
steam is generated?
Reply (2): See footnote 1 of the Introduction..March 29 at 6:55pm Like

Hemant Solanki Another important scope definition is found in U-1(h). This


paragraph states, Pressure vessels or parts subjected to direct firing
from the combustion of fuel, which are not within the scope
of Sections I, III, or IV, may be constructed to the rules of this
Division. This means that fired equipment can be constructed by
Section VIII, Division 1 rules. A fired vessel that generates steam
in a petrochemical processing unit can be constructed in accordance
with Section VIII as demonstrated by the following interpretation.
Interpretation: VIII-1-95-48
Subject: Section VIII, Division 1 (1992 Edition, 1993
Addenda), U-1(h)
Date Issued: March 13, 1995
File: BC94-670
Question: Steam is generated in a processing system containing
a number of pressure vessels used in the manufacture of
chemical and petroleum products. When the steam generated
does not provide all the steam needed for the operation of the
chemical or petroleum process plant, fired auxiliary steamgenerating
equipment, which is an integral part of the plant,
is necessary for the operation of the plant. May fired auxiliary
steam-generating equipment that generates steam for the
operation of a chemical or petroleum processing system be
constructed to the rules of Section VIII, Division 1, satisfying

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the requirements of U-1(h)?


Reply: Yes, see footnote 1 of U-1.March 29 at 6:56pm Like

Mitul Patel I have already gone through related interpretation referred by you.

Question is simple shall we consider sulphur condenser as unfired steam boilers" or not?

U-1(g) is about which equipment you can exclude from considering unfired steam boilers.Because it
add cost for full radiography and PWHT as per UW-2(c).

I request group members to check past project reference for such exchanger.March 29 at
7:05pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai As per me, Yes. Sulfur condenser shall be considered as Unfired steam boiler because
one of the by product of SRU is steam generation and this steam is used in adjacent processes/units.
Now regarding past projects, as I remember this point was not very well known. I have prepared
database @ LTC for sulfur condensers. You can check in there.March 29 at 7:37pm Like 1

Mitul Patel We have check but there is not consistency on which we can conclude.Last bugis project
PWHT is not there but radiography is there.

Actually word heat exchanger in (a) and vessels (c) is confusing.

Does heat exchanger means any type?

Does (c) also covers heat exchanger because it is also type of vessel or it is only vessels?

Than all kettle type exchangers where steam is generating and extracted for external use need to be
considered as unfired steam boilers".As far as I know this is not practise in general.

Issue will come for foreign jobs where IBR is also not applicable.March 29 at 7:52pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Very right, the language is really confusing. However when we read all three clause, I am
convinced to consider Sulfur Condenser as Unfired Steam Boilers. However such ambiguity can be
discussed with Owner at initial stage if intended to save radiography and PWHT cost.March 29 at
7:58pm Like 1

Rohitash Singh Panwar


This is in reference to limit the tube thinning to maximum 17% as per TEMA
and API 660..please share ur views..refer below attached snap for clarification..

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Like Follow Post Share March 22 at 9:40pm via mobile

Purav Desai, Ramdas Kadam, Hemant Nikam and 4 others like this.

Purav Desai Good one... Waiting for second one which we discussed last time.March 23 at
9:35am Like

Purav Desai Dear Hemant Nikam, crux of the matter is, if u consider minimum u bend radius of 1.5
times OD or more, the thinning at bend never exceeds 17%....March 24 at 7:35pm Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan I guess, that is why TEMA is permitting 17%... for the same case, what if
TEMA has permitted only 15%.. obviously, we need to increase the thicness of the tubes.. also, some
spec says, if inner most tube radius is less than 1.5 D, we need to go for one gauge higher..March 24
at 9:46pm Like 1

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Purav Desai Yes very right, there are tubes available with higher thickness only at u bends so one can
go for that also.March 25 at 4:12am Like

Mrudang Mehta In my present FPSO project, specification calls for :


1. U bend radius shall not be greater than 1.5 times Tube OD and
2. Thinning shall not be more than 10 % of thickness of straight part.

I was thinking that thinning requirement is very restrictive but surprising none of the vendors asked for
deviation..April 3 at 6:31am via mobile Like

Mihir Jha
When it is prefer to provide the insert plate in place of pad reinforcement for
nozzle?
Like Unfollow Post Share April 8 at 10:57am

Hemant Solanki 1. Whenever during UG-37 calculation there is requirement to increase area available
in shell. We need to increase thickness of shell at nozzle junction.

2. Sometimes during local load analysis of nozzle it is required to increase local shell thickness in order
to sustain nozzle loads.
Above are some criteria which calls for insert plate. We should ensure that minimum insert plate
diameter shall be of 2d without considering transition done for attachment with shellApril 8 at
11:06am Like 1

Kiran Gawade What is the max limit of Insert Plate ??


According to my knowledge, It's (Shell thickness + 2 mm)
We can take Insert Plate thickness > (Shell thik + 2 mm) but it's not Good Engg. Practice..April 8 at
11:41am Like

Hemant Solanki As far as insert plate thickness is concerned. We shall only follow UG-40 limits. So it
is not like that we should limit it to shell thk + 2 mm.
We should give appropriate taper of 1/3 or to match with shell thickness where it is going to be
weldedApril 8 at 11:51am Like 1

Purav Desai
Caution to Designers when Applying Rules of ASME Sec. VIII Div. 1 Appendix 1-
10 in lieu of UG-37 and 1-7.

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Hemant Solanki
Scope of Appendix 1-10 in lieu of UG-37

Dear All,
As we all knows that as per code The rules of Appendix 1-10 may be used in lieu of the
rules in UG-37 and 1-7, as applicable.
As far as 1-7 is concerned we know that it is for large opening.
But when to go with 1-10 ? what is scope demarcation between UG-37 and App.1-10?
Kindly share your views. And practices follow in your organization.

Like Unfollow Post Share April 8 at 11:14am via Email


Purav Desai likes this.

Ramesh Tiwari Hemant, you may want to look at the following document by the government of
Alberta in Canada regarding the use of this Appendix. http://www.absa.ca/IBIndex/ib12-002.pdf...April
8 at 2:55pm Like 2

Purav Desai Appendix 1-10 can be opted in lieu of UG-37 for all applicable cases provided
requirements specified in Appendix 1-10 (d) Caution to designers is met. Appendix 1-10 is alternative
rules and nozzle to shell intersection can be optimized using that. It helps mainly for manholes.
However for large openings in specific, code is very clear when it is mandatory to use rules of 1-7. IN
1-10 it calculates only membrane stress wherein 1-7 asks for membrane as well as bending stress
calculation. I am attaching the last paragraph of 1-10 for ready reference.April 8 at 4:45pm Like

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Hemant Solanki Yes. All that are true. I have also gone through Alberta paper. But it is scope decided
by Alberta and not ASME. E.g. in that paper 1-10 is limited to Rn/R not greater than 0.7. Which is
actually not in ASME. And Alberta has putted up from actual 1-7 requirement.
But still clear demarcation is needed between UG-37 and 1-10 scope. As far as I know 1-10 is one more
step from ASME to design Div.1 equipment with Div.2 method. And in near future they will definitely
finalize 1-10 as mandatory requirement by replacing UG-37 with 1-10.
In one of our project vendor is doing 1-10 replacing UG-37. And he is showing that 1-10 is also
applicable method from ASME as clear scope is not demarked. Note that all are not lies under large
opening definition.April 8 at 5:11pm Like

Ramesh Tiwari Hemant, I think day is not far when Div.1 will be done way with and Div. 2 will be the
only ASME Code for design of pressure vessels. Design by rule will be Part 4, and Design by analysis
will be part 5. So getting comfortable with 1-10 for nozzle reinforcement is a good idea..April 8 at
6:02pm Like

Hemant Solanki
Heat Exchanger Decision Chart

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Like Unfollow Post Share April 10 at 6:25pm

Kiran Gawade, Rajani Mewada, Arpita Shah and 10 others like this.

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Hemant Solanki
Principle of MAWP

Like Unfollow Post Share April 18 at 12:01pm

Mahendran CM, Swapnil Deshmukh, Chetan Patel and 3 others like this.

Dushyant Verma
As per client spec requirement...,
For PCE that are fabricated with three legs habing Manway, then Manway
should be located on the same orientation as one of the legs .
Can anybody knows why such requirement is given ??
Can anybody explain why ?
Like Follow Post Share April 12 at 12:14pm

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Hemant Nikam IF MANHOLE WITH DAVIT ARM BELOW IS THE REASON TO KEEP ORIENTATION
SAME AS ONE LEG .. ***FOR BALANCING OF THE VESSEL WHEN MANHOLE IS IN OPEN
CONDITION.************************************ OTHER ARE THE REASONS BASED ON 1)
PIPING REQUIREMENT FOR SAME ORIENTATION TO ACCOMMODATE OTHER SHELL NOZZLE, 2)AS
PER PLANT LAYOUT PREFERABLE ORIENTATION FOR ACCESSIBILITY OF MANHOLE. 3)IF VESSEL
WITH INTERNALS.April 12 at 5:37pm Like

Purav Desai Following are the possible logic for keeping the manway orientation same as one of the
leg. The below answers are result of discussion on other technical forums and discussion with senior
technical experts.

(1) Vessels with smaller diameter are generally provided with 3 legs, in that case, most of the time the
weight of man-way flanges with a davit arrangement is considerable as against the weight of balance
vessel. Considering the effect on CG of vessel at a condition when the man-way cover flange is open it
is recommended to keep same orientation of man-way and one leg.

(2) If manway orientation is not same as one of the leg, when person enters the vessel, a little
imbalance will occur due to heavy weight of manway cover/davit and weight of person entering vessel.
Also, when person enters the vessel, normally its empty and hence such imbalance can lead to
overturning of vessel. Hence by keeping manway orientation at one leg the other two legs strongly
resist the the overturning and thereby balance can be achieved.

(3) When person enters the vessel, there will be additional load acts on the manway to vessel shell
connection. If manway orientation is same as one of the leg, it will act as reinforcement.April 23 at
6:24pm Like 1

Mitul Patel
Heat exchanger requirement

Like Follow Post Share April 23 at 6:20pm via mobile

Senthil Anbazhagan likes this.

Mitul Patel Does anybody come across such requirement?...April 23 at 6:23pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai As per me, it is based on special tubesheet cases listed in TEMA, Appendix-A, sub clause
A-3 (1) Exchangers with large differences in shell and head ID e.g. fixed tubesheets with kettle type
shell. However i think there is some confusion in the requirement the way it is worded. or it is trying to
merge Figure UHX-10(b) and kettle type exchanger.April 23 at 6:46pm Like

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Prabhakar Harikrishnan is this client spec or code?..April 23 at 8:59pm Like

Mitul Patel Client specificationApril 23 at 9:00pm via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
How to fatigue analysis of vessels (whether full FEA or other acceptable
options). What are the issues to be taken care if a vessel is under fatigue. What
fabrication issues to be considered. Request for sharing of experiences
Like Unfollow Post Share April 23 at 7:35am

Senthil Anbazhagan likes this.

Senthil Anbazhagan http://www.praiseworthyprize.com/IREME-


latest/IREME_vol_5_n_5.html#Fatigue_and_Brinelling_Evaluation_of_ASME_Extraction_Pressure_Vesse
l_Closure_with_Locking_Ring.

Fatigue and Brinelling Evaluation of ASME Extraction Pressure Vessel Closure with Locking
Ring - Lat

www.praiseworthyprize.com

Abstract - Closure used to close and open the pressure vessel comes in special t...See More

April 23 at 9:27am Like Remove Preview

Senthil Anbazhagan Download the above article. You can get the details about the fatigue
analysis.April 23 at 9:28am Like

Hemant Solanki Refer File I have uploaded in group - Fatigue Design of Process EQUIPMENT..April
23 at 4:59pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Hemant I sorrry I could not locate the paper. Would you mind
uploading in FB as u have done innumerous times.April 24 at 7:01am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Senthil is the paper password protected. I am able tor each the page
but could not get to itApril 24 at 7:05am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Hemant if it is the Paulin research paper, I got it just now from the
net!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...April 24 at 7:09am Like

1)

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Prabhakar Harikrishnan
How to calculate or justify the life of an equipment (other than fatigue analysis)?
My client data sheet says the life of the equipment shall be 25 years, and he need design
guarantee for the same.. or is that only fatigue is the way out?
Like Follow Post Share April 25 at 12:14pm near Chennai, Tamil Nadu
Mitul Patel likes this.

Purav Desai One easiest way is to calculate corrosion rate, which is different for different process
fluid. Corrosion rate is defined in temrs of mils per year (MPY). 1 mpy = 0.0254 mm/y. So if you have
data for corrsion rate, you can easily calculate life of equipment based on considered corrosion
allowance. Second way is refer to API 579: Fitness for Service, which considers several parameters to
calculate life of equipment. API-579 calculation is little complex and needs data from online monitoring
of equipments.April 25 at 1:45pm Like 3

Mihir Jha The fatigue analysis is only required for vessel in cyclic service. The CA is selected for vessel
based on design life of vessel. This is always specified by client for how many years the vessel is
designed. API 579 is used to check for the existing vessel in refinery not for the new vessel. The
material group will give u the basis for selecting the CA. Static can't give the guarantee.April 25 at
4:17pm via mobile Like 1

Prabhakar Harikrishnan thanks Purav Desai & Mihir JhaApril 25 at 9:00pm Like

Mitul Patel Good to know that PV-Elite 2013 covers separate module for API-579.But for such analysis
thickness survey is required.Generally operating company (owner) are having dedicated team for doing
this exercise and to calculate remaining life of equipment.April 26 at 7:30am via mobile Like

Mrudang Mehta Hi, I know the post is old but I can give some idea as in present FPSO project I am
working, the client specification calls for design life of 40 years. How is that guaranteed and our codes
also say that if a equipment is design as per code, the life is expected to be 20 years. Actually when
the project calls for such long life the design conditions specified in the project are based on the same.
Like in my present project, the wind and FPSO acceleration are based on 10,000 years return period,
the worst climate conditions that equipment are envisaged to be subjected in their life. When the
equipment is design for such conditions and can calculation prove the same, it is guaranteed to be
design for 40 years. We are not going for any FEM analysisMay 1 at 1:50pm via mobile Like

2)

Purav Desai

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As far as I know, Gasket thickness has no role in flange design. Its thickness ranges from
2 mm to 6 mm depending on type of gasket. Sometimes we go with vendor standard for
selection of gasket thickness.

What is logic behind selection of gasket (standard/non-standard) thickness? Does gasket


thickness is selcetd to maintain structural integrity of gasket?

Please share your views.


Like Follow Post Share May 2 at 6:42am
Mahadevan Venkiteswaran I can share my views on vendor standard.May 2 at 7:13am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran The gasket m and y factor play a role in flange thickness. That is why a
few operators epc insist on a particular M & Y factor or a particular vendor to optimize flange
thickness.May 2 at 7:13am Like

Purav Desai That is correct but what about gasket thickness??? Its my main doubt.May 2 at
7:23am via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar There is a factor known as creep relaxation behaviour of gasket. When we
apply bolt load to flange joint, then some of bolt load is used to compress the gasket along its
thickness......it is same as we compress the sponge ball...more the thickness more is creep
relacation.....In PCC-1 calculation there is a factor for creep relaxation...but in appendix 2 there is no
such factor for creep relaxation of gasket..May 2 at 8:53am via mobile Like 2

Ranaprio Sarkar What I understand after reading EN 13445, ASME sec VIII Div 1 both that... gasket
thickness depends on thermal stress, axial stresses, external load, Bolt Tightening Load, etc.... EN
consider everything & its calculation is iterative & complicated one....But in ASME make calculation
simpler, constant the gasket thickness, material, Bolt tension value, service factor,etc by putting some
factor m & Y ....May 2 at 10:09am Like

Purav Desai The point mentioned by Rohitash Singh Panwar is correct. However, ASME PCC-1 also
says that get the gasket relaxation from gasket manufacturer and if not available consider it as 30%
(0.7) {ASME PCC-1 O-4.1(i)}. Also refer the attached ASME article on gasket relaxation test..May 2 at
10:27am Like 1

Purav Desai Further to above, I have also read somewhere on internet that for non metallic gaskets
the gasket relaxation matters more cpmapred to metallic gaskets. We mostly use metallic gaskets and
it may be the reason gasket thickness is not given much of importance..May 3 at 2:23pm Like 1

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3)

Purav Desai
For a Storage Tank shell design as per "One Foot Method"; What is significance of "One
Foot"? Why we consider (H-1) in Inch units or (H-0.3) in metric units??
Like Follow Post Share May 5 at 6:38pm

Mihir Jha 1 stands for one foot which is equivalent to 0.3 m.Tank is made up of different shell course.
Due to hydrostatic pressure bottom shell course is thicker than upper course. So, at two shell course
junction the thicker shell provide stiffening effect to the upper shell. Due to this the stress increases in
the bottom section and reduces in the upper section. It was empirically taken in the code that the
stress reduces maximum at height 1 foot from the junction and it is that point where hydrostatic
pressure to be consider for thickness evaluation. In other words, Code Assume (Stiffening effect of
higher thickess = Effect due to hydrostatic head equivalent to 1 foot or 0.3 m)May 5 at
8:13pm Like 9

Dushyant Verma At the joint between two adjacent shell course, the lower course provides some
stiffening to the upper shell course and this results an increase in stress in the upper part of the lower
shell course and a reduction in stress in the lower part of the upper shell course.
Due to which API 650 assumes that the reduction in stress in the upper shell course reaches a
maximum value at one foot (300mm) above the joint that is why effective acting head is measured one
foot above the bottom of each shell course.May 6 at 6:18am Like 2

4)

Ravi Patel
Dear All,

Which value shall be considered for outside diameter (Do) in dishend template gauge (As
per UG-29 & UG-81) ?
Like Unfollow Post Share May 4 at 10:06am via mobile

Patel Sudhir For Hemihead : the outside diameter of the heads (Do = Ro * 2),Please consider
hemihead radius in calculation...don't use cylinder outside diameter.May 5 at 4:49pm Like

Patel Sudhir For Ellipsoidal and torispherical head : The out side diameter for the heads template (Do
= Ro * 2), Where Ro = 0.9Do(Approx.), Refer UG-81 (b) - Only spherical portion of a torispherical or
ellipsoidal head designed for external pressure shall be checked.May 5 at 5:00pm Like 2

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Hemant Solanki Deviation from true circular form is measured by using a segmental circular template
with a chord length equal to twice the arc length as determined by Fig. UG-29.2. If the measurements
are to be taken from the outside, then the radius of the template shall be the design outside radius. If
the measurements are made from the inside, the template radius shall be the design inside radius.
Sample problem L-4 in nonmandatory Appendix L demonstrates the use of the tolerance rules for
vessels under external pressure..May 6 at 9:46am Like 1

5)

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
What is the best programme to mechanical design S&T exchangers. Microprotol?
Like Follow Post Share May 5 at 5:50pm via BlackBerry

Purav Desai I have never used Microprotol but have hands on experience for B-Jac (Aspen Shell and
Tube Mechanical) and its the best as per me. Main part of Heat exchanger design is SIZING which is
verywell covered by B-Jac.May 5 at 6:14pm Like

Bhargav Rudakiya for the s&t exchanger design.I suggest pv elite..it is depend upon the type(tema)
what ever u choose......May 5 at 7:14pm via mobile Like

Purvish Joshi PV Elite is not Desiging S&T Heat Exchanger. It just analyse your inputMay 5 at
7:29pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Welcome purvish. Good to see your post. I totally agree with you. As i mentioned earlier
for heat exchnager design sizing is main part which consist of flange & gasket sizing, calculation of
shell length, floating head sizing etc. is not at all covered by PVElite. On other hand, B-Jac does it all
with very few inputs.May 5 at 7:32pm Like

Patel Sudhir According to my experience B-jac aspen is good.May 5 at 8:29pm via mobile Like

Bhargav Rudakiya purav..it is depend upon the designer..if the designer know the input value of the
each component of the equipment.he can judge size of bolt,flange size etc...and go for a conservative
n optimise the design..and other side all the vaule decide by software...he cant go for preservative
side...May 5 at 9:41pm via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran My question was more regarding TEMA, and ASME compliance.
Nevertheless I got the answers thanksMay 6 at 12:23am Like

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Purav Desai Hi Mahadevan Venkiteswaran, Its a good post. It seems that you have experience of
Microprotol. Can you share some of its features w.r.t. design of heat exchangers.May 6 at
3:20pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Purav, Micrrprotol is an intellegent software which does most of the
mechanical dimensioning also. You can import the HTRI and a project file for common data like wind
seismic etc and give minimum input and you get calculation with drawings. you need to give gasket
width and m and y factor flange design is also automatic. However you get lazy with such software as
everything is automotic. I feel B-Jac is a good option where there is a bit of manual control.May 7 at
8:38am Like 2

6)

Purav Desai
Is it necessary to apply 1.3 multiplication factor and stress ratio to determine hydrotest
pressure for plate type heat exchangers? API-662 is silent @ calculation of hydrotest
pressure.
Like Follow Post Share May 6 at 10:25am

Chetan Patel Yes you are right part 1 of api 662 for gasketed is silent on hydrotest presuure
requirement.May 6 at 11:16am via mobile Like

Purav Desai Even API-662 part 2 is silent. It says that test pressure shall be in accordance with
pressure design code. There is one mis leading sentense in API-662 part 2 whcih says that test @
150% of design pressure but it is applicable only to bimetal transition pieces. My main concern is if we
hve gasketed PHE and if Vendor wants to apply test pressure as only 1.1 times DP. Can we accept
it?...May 6 at 11:45am Like

Chetan Patel If your project spec. is silent on it then you csn accept it with client permission.May 6
at 12:33pm via mobile Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari you should follow ASME sec 8 div 1 in case of any discrepancyMay 7 at
12:12pm Like

7)

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Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
What does screening method A and B really signify in Div 2. I feel by screening method A
it is bound to fail. Experts in Fatigue please throw light.
I am recently working in a project where there are more startup and shutdown cycles and
zero pressure or temperature cycle. As per screening criteria A only 1000 cycles is allowed
and it exceeds the client requirement. The supplier did a FEA and proved that the no, of
allowable cycles is more than required for the given geometry. Can there be a different
result if method B is followed.
Like Follow Post Share April 29 at 10:31pm

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Hello guys! Any responseMay 5 at 5:37pm Like

Wang Shun Hi Maha, how are you doing?


I had some experiences in fatigue analysis. Either using method A or method B, the cycles shall be
knows first (per operating condition). The simplest way is to follow method A, and if table 5-9 is met,
then no detail analysis is required. If not meeting table 5-9, method B can be used. In general, the
basis/foundation of method B is that at difference operating cycles, the material allowable stress will be
reduced per table 3-F.(as you can see in table 3-F, that allowable stress is reduced with the cycles
increased).
I did some fatigue analysis for some agitator nozzles before. Client needs to frequently start / stop the
operation in 20 years. (total cycle can be determined accordingly). If using method B, then follow the
procedure, eventually the actual material allowable stress will be reduced. After getting this allowable
stress, then perform WRC 107 local stress calculation, and shall limit the shell combined stress to be
less than the allowable stress derived from table 3-F. By doing so, shell local thickness might be
increased to reduce the stress. Also in cyclic service, nozzle shall be self-reinforced (no repad allowed)
and fillet weld shall be fatigue finish.May 7 at 8:33pm Like

Wang Shun Btw, refer to PD 5500 Annex C, similar method, but easier to understand..May 7 at
8:45pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Wang thanks for the response. I understood your methods. My case is
a vessel with startup and shutdonw cycle alone 10000 and no operating cycles. Hence Screening A is
out and supplier had done direct fea and found out that allowable cycle is more than 10000. However
my doubt was why screening B is so complicated. By the way I came to know EN 13445 is liberal with
respect to fatigue?...May 7 at 10:42pm Like

8)

Indrapandian K
In my HX datasheet, it is mentioned in notes that baffle material shall be compatible with
Tube material. What is the reason for this and what will happen if we take deviation?

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Like Unfollow Post Share May 7 at 8:41pm via mobile

Hemant Solanki I think it is to avoid crevice corrosion by means of generation of electro-chemical cell
which starts corrosion at baffle to tube junction within baffle holes. gap between tube and baffle holes
will encourage such kind of corrosion. So its batter that both have same metallurgy.May 7 at
8:45pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar The one more reason is to avoid the failure of tube or baffle at junction due
to the difference in the hardness of baffle and tube due to vibration if different material is used....May 7
at 8:51pm via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar I think crevice corrosion will happen only when electrolyte is present on
shell side....if the fluid is not acting as electrolyte then no crevice corrosion will occur...plzz correct me
if i m wrong..May 7 at 8:52pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Crevice generates when two different metallurgy gets in minute area contact number
of times. as u said due to vibration baffle wl be continuously impacting on tube outer surface at minute
area. At that contact area corrosion will start by means of electrolyte cell generation.
Shell fluid will provide electrolytic environment. And different metallurgy of baffle and tubes will
become anode and cathode.
In order to avoid that same metallurgy will serve the purpose. There will be no anode or cathode
generation.May 7 at 9:34pm via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Do all fluids acts like electrolyte.....May 7 at 10:03pm via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar I think Crevice corrosion can take place for same metallurgy too....Crevice is
also form due to the difference in concentration of same fluid at different locations....the fluid at certain
location becomes stagnant...i.e. in betwwen tubes or baffle or at the flange joints.....so the amount of
oxygen present is used for oxidation of metal...so they concentration of that fluid will change at that
location in comparision to fluid in shell...so the cell will form between less concentration fluid and more
concentration fluid and corrosion will start..May 7 at 10:09pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Both of the above points (corrosion and vibration) are valid reasons for considering baffle
materials same as tubes. As per shell DEP, it recommend to use CS baffles for copper alloy tubes only
in non corrosive non aqueous service. I have also seen clients allowing different materials for tubes and
baffles. Vibration is main issue, evenif tube/bafffle materials are same but if exchanger is not properly

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designed for vibration then tubes can fail. Refer the attached article published in Hydrocarbon
Processing on Vibration Failure of tubes..May 8 at 7:34am Like 1

Deepesh Shrivastava One more view on the same question, Normally Tubes are with Higher
metallurgy as tubes do not have corrosion allowances. So it is better and safe to have the same
metallurgy for tubes and baffles..May 8 at 2:16pm Like

Shreyas Sutar One more reason is hardness.......If the baffle material is harder than tube then baffle
may damage the tubes..........or vice a varsa.........May 8 at 4:34pm Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan More than corrosion.. Erosion is one of main reason. In all HEs, the Tubes
are of lower thickness. even if it is not going to corrode, it will erode due to vibration. And if the Baffles
are of higher hardness, it will quickly damage the tubes, reducing the Life time of the Equipment. It
also depends on the nature of the Fluids used..May 8 at 4:41pm Like 1

Ashay Kadam This to avoid contact corrosion... CS baffles in contact with SS tubes can damage
cromium oxide layer on SS surface of tubes and further initiate corrosion...May 10 at
12:53am via mobile Like 1

Mrudang Mehta Agree with Ashay... And donot think it is big deal. The word is 'Compatible' and not
'same'. For Duplex tubes, baffle is usually (depends on Shell side fluid too) SS 304 or 316. So donot
think takin deviation is correct.May 11 at 6:40am via mobile Like

9)

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
Has anyone done tubesheet design as per asme section 1 for condensers. I need some
info / sample drawing calculation. I guess the speciality is thin tubesheet and flexible
tubesheet so that bellows can be avoided in a typical NEN type
@ Purav any reference
Like Follow Post Share May 9 at 6:59am
Arpita Shah and 2 others like this.

Purav Desai I myself did not perform design and analysis for thin flexible tubesheet as per ASME Sec
I but have verified calculations in some past projects. The analysis is relatively simple compared to
UHX. It is calculated considering tubesheet as stayed plate wherein it is assumed that tubesheet is
being supported by tubes. Tubes are considered as stays. It is very similar to UG-47. Further

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conventional firetube boilers have BFW on shell side and hot gas running inside the tubes. For the
steam separation on shellside, tubesheet is perforated partially (no tubes in top half of tubesheet).
These portion of the tubesheet is supported by additional support welded to shell at one end and
tubesheet at other end. It is better to ask vendor to verify the analysis by FEA softwareMay 9 at
2:14pm Like

Purav Desai I found a verygood article related to thin flexible tubesheet. Please refer
attachment..May 9 at 2:24pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Purav thanks. I have read it. What is stayed plate. what does it
mean?....May 10 at 5:52am Like

Purav Desai As its name its the plate which is stayed inplace by means of tubes or bolts or any other
means of support under design conditions.May 10 at 6:56am via mobile Like

Deepesh Shrivastava Hi Purav... I am not able to see your attachment you are referring too..

May 10 at 1:54pm Like

Purav Desaihttps://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/staticequipment/573920709309291/

Static Equipment Group

May 10 at 3:43pm Like Remove Preview

Mrudang Mehta Hi Guys.. Sorry for late response. I had done Sulphur Condensers in one project in
L&T. The tubes get is designed as designed as per Section VIII Div 1 as the tubes are only in bellow
half or shall and not symmetrically distributed like S&T HXs. So the tube sheet is designed as Stayed
surface, with stays spread symmetrically. Refer to section PG 46 for design of Stayed Surface. Stay
bolts are designed as per PG 47 and the ligament of tube sheet are to be check as per PG 53 as
openings in tube sheet are donot for definitive pattern in tubesheet.

As Purav rightly said, design is much simpler than UHX design.May 11 at 6:55am via mobile Like

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Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @mrudang thanks for good reply. I also happen to see reference dwg
of Ilsung which matches ur reply. Question is how is U stamp achieved with mix of Second VIII and
Second I codeMay 11 at 8:00am Like

Mrudang Mehta @Mahadevan- Thats a tough one .. But I remember that the project that at sulphur
condenser was Qatar Petroleum Gas (QPG).. So surely it would be U stamped.. Second option is it may
be that only pressure parts as per Sec Viii Div 1 are U stamped and overall equipment is certified by
approved 3rd Party certification authority like Llyods or DNV.. Sorry cannot give direct answer as not
sure..May 11 at 9:26am via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Thanks Mrudang. I guess it is only possible in S.Korea where the AI
accepts a mix of code.May 11 at 3:07pm Like

10)

Sachin Pawar
Hello everyone. Does anyone know what is the logic behind running calculations for load
case 1 to 3 as per UHX-17? Because these load cases are not related to thermal expansion
hence what is the use of checking tubesheet, shell & tube stresses for these cases?
Like Follow Post Share May 11 at 7:45pm

Vishal Patil It seems that the reason behind this is hidden inside the Pe formula stated in UHX-17,
careful extraction of formula shows that all parameters related to expansion joints are removed except
Dj however the placement of Dj is just like the placement of Ds which is shell ID. Ro-s ration without
flange tubesheet is Ds/Do similar to Dj/Do, it seems expansion joint is treated as increased dia shell,
and hence it is informed to check cases from 1 to 3 as there is no consideration for expansion.May 12
at 5:50am Like 1

11)

Mihir Jha
How to do the local load anaysis for nozzles of GRP vessel? Which code to be followed? If
anyone has some reference, send it to me at mihir.jha2@gmail.com
Like Follow Post Share May 9 at 11:53am
Senthil Anbazhagan likes this.

Senthil Anbazhagan You can go for FEM to do accurate load analysis for GRP nozzles.You can refer
code guidelines to select the loads and moments for analysis.May 9 at 11:56am Like

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Mihir Jha In case of GRP vessel, I think vendor will give only the allowable nozzle which will be given
to piping stress.group. Piping has to design upstream and downstream piping to limit within allowable .
Please correct me if the explaination is wrong.May 12 at 9:39am via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran As such there should be less piping load. GRP piping should have less
thermal expansion. I guess GRP piping if supported well should give only sustained load. Hence this
should not be an issue. I have worked for caustic plants where FRP vessels and pipes are
common.May 12 at 1:12pm Like 1

12)

Purav Desai
Teflon Sliding Plate Assembly for Saddle supported Vessels/Exchangers.

Like Follow Post Share May 9 at 8:18pm

Arpita Shah, Ramdas Kadam and Basheer Mohamed like this.

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Suraj Kr Tiwari its very simple, we use ss plate to avoid corrosion and instead of tack welding we
apply full fillet welding to both ss plate with their base plate in more corrosive environment. the
attachment sent by you refer only one type,there are rest more. for small vessel and less corrosive
environment you can use ss plate insted of teflon.outside india the prevalence of teflon is more, mainly
in heating medium vessels or heaters.May 9 at 8:37pm Like

Purav Desai How only sliding plate gets corroded? What about saddle material??? Is it also SS to
prevent from atmospheric corrosion? This is simple but sounds interesting.

As far as i know sliding plate is always grouted inside concrete foundation which eliminates corrosion
issues. And for eqpts located on steel structure sliding plate is generally not required.May 9 at
8:45pm via mobile Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari sliding plate are allways made of ss, and used also where equipment saddle are
welded to structure. mirror finished ss plates are widely used for this purpose but no doubt to minimise
the k we use ptfe plate bonded to lower sliding ss plate if client spec call for it or as per good eng.
Practice.May 11 at 9:12pm Like

Purav Desai But what @ my main doubt, why only sliding plate gets corroded why not
saddles??....May 11 at 9:20pm via mobile Like

Mihir Jha As per one of the company standard, there are total 5 plates are used. Soul plate which is
CS embedded in concrete generally 10Thk.This CS Soul Plate is welded to SS Plate (Thickness Varies -
3mm/ 6mm), Teflon Pad (1.5mm/3 mm Thk) is adhesive bonded to SS Plate. Again Teflon Pad
adhesive bonded to SS Plate which is welded to base Plate for saddle.May 11 at 10:54pm Like

Vishal Patil SS to SS contact is made to reduce the friction coefficient, cs to cs once corroded
increases the friction across these plates, instead if u use SS plate, very little chances of corrosion
means constant friction rate through out equipment life.May 12 at 4:55am Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari Purav go through vishal post,this is what i want say. Mihir post is for stringent case,
normaly we use one ptfe plate bonded to ss slide plate welded to sole but in india in mostly cases only
mirror finished ss slide plates thk 10 mm one welded to base plate and anothet one to sole plate.May
12 at 7:51am via mobile Like

Purav Desai Sorry, I do not agree. I also have done projects for Indian Clients like IOCL, BPCL,
HPCL,OMPL, MRPL, GGSR etc. with PMCs EIL, TEIL, JACOBS etc. None of these owner or PMC specifies
to use two SS plates as sliding plate as explaine in above two posts. Further their saddle standard
drawing also shows a single sliding plate. Further if corrosion is the concern let me share something,

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CS sliding plate is supplied in hot dip galvanized condition and bottom of saddle base plate is also hot
dip galvanized to cater to the corrosion issue. So, i request you to share some of the owner spec or
standard drawings which shows such two SS plate arrangement.May 12 at 8:04am Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari There is a huge diff between galvanized plate and mirror finshed ss plate in terms of
corrosion resistance life and cost. Studs are widely used in dip galvanized form but major clients uses
ss sliding plate in lieu of cs. I think u should go through some international standards like shell or
pip.May 12 at 12:28pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Suraj Kr Tiwari, PIP standard did not specifies anything which you stated very
confidently. Refer attached extracts of PIP standards for your ready reference. Further, I am looking for
Indian Owner/PMC requirements of SS sliding plates which was stated by
you.https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/staticequipment/575003082534387/

Static Equipment Group

May 12 at 12:52pm Like Remove Preview

Suraj Kr Tiwari It is not matter of just sending of doc.Firstly u go through section 5.12.3.2 sent by
you, then u find ans of your all ? There are allways seperate standard for sliding arrangement..May
12 at 3:47pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai @Suraj kr Tiwari, I think u didnot visited my full attachment. I already attached PIP
standard drawings referred in 5.12.3.2 but there are no sliding plate details. Please go thru it once
again. And also sharw indian owner/pmc spec which i requested u..May 12 at
3:58pm via mobile Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari I have allready these standards and the latest one. I think u don't read my post
thoroughly..May 12 at 5:36pm Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari It is clearly written for high tem(250 F) or thermal exp more than 6 mm slide plate
may be provided, not in each case as told by you. In normal case we use mirror finished ss platesMay
12 at 5:58pm via mobile Like

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Purav Desai Suraj Kr Tiwari, please do not change the subject of discussion/debate. The main
discussion point was the use of SS sliding plates and two nos. as explained by you. Where does PIP
standard states that? I also referred to Shell DEP which also does not states use of SS sliding plates.
Further more you are not sharing Indian Owner/PMC standard where you have applied two nos. SS
sliding plates. Please share such document so group members can come to know new practices
adopted in Industry..May 12 at 6:14pm Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari It is easily understood by anyone when ptfe is not required then what kind of
arrangement to be provided between saddle base plate and structure, if your client is not bother abt
cost. As per your previous post it showed you used every where ptfe , it means allways delta t is more
than 250 or delta l is more than 6 mm . Reallly i amazed. I also worked for ONGC, RELIANCE, NOCL,
OPAL, IOCL but never used ptfe arrangement in each case. In most cases i used ss mirror finished
plates tack welded to base plate and sole or deck plate. No more post from my side........some times u
should follow what called good eng. practise..May 12 at 6:48pm Like

Purav Desai Suraj Kr Tiwari, in none of my post I said that I used PTFE (telfon sliding plates) in all
cases. I said clearly it is used only in cases where friction force on bolts/saddles to be reduced. My only
doubt from 1st reply for this post was why to use SS sliding plates? And later on my doubt was why to
use two SS plates. Ir is neither amazing nor wrong if somebody has never seen any owner specification
specifying requirement of SS sliding plate and moreover 2 nos SS sliding plates. And thats the reason, I
requested you to share such requirement but you didnot. Instead you referred some international
standards. Unfortunately that too doesnot specify requirement to use SS sliding plates. Hope sooner or
later you will share that Indian Owner spec. Anyways its a nice debate..May 12 at 6:58pm Like

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13)

Suraj Kr Tiwari
Sliding arrangement with single PTFE

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Like Follow Post Share May 13 at 9:55am via mobile


14)

Mihir Jha
In case of horizontal vessel, how can we know the requirement of "Teflon Sliding Plate"?
If the Saddle Statndard Drawing is showing only the slotted holes requirement in the base
plate.

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Like Follow Post Share May 7 at 6:54am


Tejas Shah likes this.

Dushyant Verma Generally , the design load for the saddle supports are the operating wt., combined
with wind or earthquake loads, the friction force between saddles and foundation and also the test
weight.May 7 at 7:45am Like

Dushyant Verma The friction force is caused by expansion or contraction of the vessel shell if the
opertaing tem. varies from atmospheric tem. For small temp. induced, shell length changes and saddle
with the supporting structure can be made strong and flexible enough to resist the thermal force.
However , if a large temperature movement of the vessel is expected , a special self lubricating bearing
plate (sliding plate) with a low friction coefficient (than steel to concrete) must be provided to reduce
the expansion force.May 7 at 7:51am Like 2

Suraj Kr Tiwari Sliding & sole plate is only used where saddle is welded to deck plate or structure.
you are not supposed to use sloted hole bolting arrangement and sliding plate arrangement
simultaneously. In your case saddle is bolted to structure.May 7 at 11:40am Like

Wang Shun Sliding saddle is provided allowed vessel to have thermal expansion. Thermal expansion
force(horizontal force) F1 can be calculated by using thermal coefficient and temperature difference.
Then the saddle reaction force Q can be calculated.(assume half of the vessel weight). And assume the
friction factor is f, then the max. horizontal force to overcome the friction is F2 = Q x f.
Hence, F2 shall be less than F1 to allow the vessel to expand, otherwise even slot holes are provided
on the sliding saddle, the vessel won't expand, due to heave weight of the vessel, or large friction
factor.
The purpose of providing the teflon pad is to reduce the friction factor between sliding saddle and
teflon pad.(normally, teflon pad has friction factor less than 0.1, to reduce the max. friction force,
which stops the vessel to expand)May 7 at 8:42pm Like 2

Mihir Jha I agree with Wang Shun & Dushyant Verma. In case of Heat Exchanger, we have the temp.
difference. Whereas in case of pressure vessel, there is only one temp. i.e Operating Temp. There is no
temp. differnce. Hence for pressure vessel, we do not have to consider any sliding saddle. Please
clarify.May 8 at 7:38am Like

Dushyant Verma If operating teperature varies from atmospheric temperature (Large or small) then
there is chance of expansion orcontraction , that is why we are using slidind plate for vessel also
depending upon weight. (friction force)May 8 at 7:58am Like 1

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Kumar Kashyap Mihir Jha why there is a differnce in using sliding plate for exchanger & vessel? what
temp. difference r u looking for? doesn't matter S&T or pressure vessel.I agree with Dushyant Verma.
both have a shell body with operating temperature.May 8 at 11:37am Like

Mihir Jha Kumar Kashyap Based on the study and reference from different project, it is found that
requirement of teflon pad is not dependent on the expansion or contraction. Teflon Pad is required only
for heavy equipment. The weight is only the criteria for the requiement of teflon pad. In Two project,
Our company has taken the teflon pad for vessel having operating weight greater than 50 Tons (Good
Engineering Practice). However, regarding the expansion / contraction is a relative term with respect to
fixed node which shall be taken care by Piping. The saddle standard hole size is capable of taking the
expansion/contraction for the general case which has expalained by Dushyant. However for special
case, where the layout is a mazor constraint then this expansion or contraction play a mazor role in
deciding the type of support of the equipment but still this will be finalized by Piping. Please give your
view if anyone have some different idea.May 9 at 11:50am Like

Kumar Kashyap Mihir Jha thts what I told you before. You only confused yourself with difference in
exchanger and pressure vessel with temperature difference and all as mentioned above.... slot hole
dimensions are decided based on expansion due to temperature difference. Genrally all horizontal
equipment are provided with sliding plates setting on concrete to reduce the frictional force. Higher
frictional coefficient results in higher longitudnal stresses at the junction due to high frictional force. So
steel sliding plates are used to reduce the frictional force since they have low coefficient of friction. So,
when equipment is too heavy then frictional force will also be very high resulting in very high
longitudnal stresses at the junction. In that case instead of steel sliding plates teflon plates can be used
whose coefficient of friction is very less. Since it is already clear to you now as you menyioned above,
we don't need to go in detail anymore.May 9 at 2:25pm Like 1

Purav Desai Agreed with Kumar Kashyap above. It is basic principle that any metal expands when
exposed to temperature higher than atmosphere. So if there is no sliding plate then the thermal
expansion (movement) is RESTRICTED between two saddles which exert additional stresses on saddles
and anchor bolts. Anchor bolts will experience shear stress in this condition. So if thermal movement is
higher, NO Sliding plate then anchor bolt will FAIL. Teflon sliding plate is also provided for equipments
operating at higher temperatures irrespective of weight. Some classic examples are waste heat boilers
and furnaces of Sulfur Recovery Unit. And sometime if thermal movement is very high, rollers are also
provided at sliding end. For heat exchangers saddles and anchor bolts an additional check is done for
the longitudinal force exerted due to bundle puling condition..May 9 at 4:43pm Like 2

Suraj Kr Tiwari everybody is saying the same thing with change in language, life span of teflon plate
is small so in major cases we use ss sliding plate. you can predict the length of sloted hole if thermal
forces are more. friction coefficent is not play a major role but weight does. there is no connection of
type of sliding arrangement with piping, they only provide the saddle for sloted and fixed considering
piping routing to minimize external forces on nozzles. there are numerous type of sliding arrangement
even considering the environment type. for offshore and fpso sliding arrangement play a vital role
becoz we use clamping for sliding saddle so various type of sliding arrangement are used depending
upon client spec. requirement.May 9 at 6:35pm Like 1

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Purav Desai Suraj Kr Tiwari, I think you mis understood the concept of teflon sliding plate. Teflon is
never provided as alone sliding plate. Teflon is always bonded to SS or CS plate. When we use teflon
sliding plate plate there are two plates provided both bonded with teflon and thereby making teflon to
teflon contact and reducing friction coefficient (~0.1). There is no meaning in providing only SS sliding
plate as the contact remains between steel to steel i.e. friction coefficient remains same 0.4..May 9 at
6:48pm Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari you can use single teflon plate also bonded with sole plate. i am trying to say there
are numerous type of arrangement for this depending upon client spec and use. in india i used in some
projects only ss to sole to ss to base plate tack welding and both ss plate are free to move on each
other for small vesselsMay 9 at 7:12pm Like

Purav Desai Correct Suraj Kr Tiwari, but i am not understanding if u use SS sliding plate, how does it
make difference? Refer the attached extract of Dennis Moss book which clearly states that steel to steel
friction factor is 0.4. So I understand that either u use CS sliding plate or SS sliding plate it doesnot
make any difference. Please let me know if there is any logic for using SS sliding plate instead of
CS.May 9 at 8:18pm Like 1

Mihir
Jha https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10152225714645288&set=o.226151964086169&ty
pe=1&theater

Photos from Mihir Jha's post in Static Equipment Group

By: Mihir Jha.May 13 at 8:19am Like Remove Preview

Suraj Kr Tiwari Good work. Now i think someone is able know diff. b/w ss and cs plate in use for
sliding arrangenent.May 13 at 8:59am via mobile Like

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Purav Desai General requirements are given everywhere. But the main objective is to select what is
best suited for the given application with optimum cost. Two nos SS sliding plates can be accepted as
good engineering practice if some owner already adopted it and modified their standard accordingly.
But till today no such standard is shared in this forum.

Now let me give some recent example and trend followed by Owners. In Petro Rabigh project, saddle
standard drawing indicates to use single CS sliding plate. This is a MEGA project which has more than
2000 static equipments in overall. Take an example of Shell DEP, TOYO standard, CHIYODA standard,
and many other well-known Owner/PMC standards specify to use only Single sliding plate. This is clear
indication that till date most Owners prefers to use Single CS sliding plate arrangement and its working
very well in the filed too.

Requirement of Teflon sliding plate is defined in Haldor Topsoe Standard with reference to Weight
requirement and details are similar as some pictures were posted in this forum so that can be adopted
as good engineering practice.

I am repeating my request to share Owner/PMC Sliding plate standard with SS material and two nos
mirror finished. After that I will be happy to incorporate it wherever needsMay 14 at 5:47am Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari Now atleast someone talking abt single sliding arrangement..May 14 at
5:57am Like

15)

Arpita Shah
Can we use SA 266 Cl.2 material upto -29 Deg. Temperature?
Like Unfollow Post Share May 11 at 11:19pm

Patel Sudhir All standard flanges of ferritic steels are exempted as per UCS-66 (c) upto -29 C. If it is
a non standard forging and falls under impact test requirement as per UCS-66, it has to be impact
tested at -29C as per UG-84. In my opinion you can go for SA 350 LF2 CL 1 material for non standard
forging as there is no much difference in cost.May 12 at 4:08pm Like

Hemant Solanki As per Fig. UCS-66, Curve B is applicable for SA 266-Gr.2 flange.
So as per Curve B upto 10 mm thickness this flange can be used upto -29C without impact testing.
If we use normalised flanges then same limit can be extended to -48C for same thickness (Curve C).
Here governing thickness is nominal divided by 4.
You just check what is MDMT for your equipment and then compare with Fig- UCS-66.
FYI, SA 350 LF series can be utilised without any impact testing because LF itself means Low
temperature Forging application which by default contains in its specification testing requirements of
these flanges so that it can be used at low temperature.May 15 at 12:55pm Like 1

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Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Check with your client standard. There are a few clients who restrict the
use of 266 beyond -29.May 15 at 1:53pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran SA765 is good at lower temperaturesMay 15 at 4:45pm Like

16)

Purav Desai
TEMA 9th Edition Updates as on May 2013.

Like Follow Post Share May 16 at 7:12am

17)

Hemant Solanki
New ASME BPVC Publication Schedule: Effective July 2010

New ASME BPVC Publication Schedule: Effective July 2010


Effective with the 2010 edition, ASME is moving the Boiler Pressure Vessel Code from a 3-
year publication schedule to a 2-year schedule. Addenda will be phased out and a
complete set of Code books will be published every two years, according to the following
schedule:
2010: New edition BPVC released in July
2011: Addenda consisting of a complete reprint of the books incorporating all changes
2012: No addenda
2013: New edition BPVC
2014: No addenda

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2015: New edition BPVC, etc.


Frequently Asked Questions

1. Why has ASME changed the BPVC publishing cycles from three years to two years?
With no Addenda, ASME believes the reduction of one year in the BPVC publishing cycle
will be more responsive to user needs. Assimilating all changes into one publication should
create a more user-friendly reference.
2. Is ASME going to publish BPVC Code Cases and Interpretations following the same
schedule as the Addenda?
Code Cases will continue to be published quarterly between BPVC editions, and
republished as a new edition on a cycle concurrent with the rest of the BPVC.
Interpretations will be posted on the ASME website in January of each year; and also in
July of each year during which there is no BPVC edition/addenda being published (i.e.,
2012, 2014, etc.). With each July publication of the BPVC, Interpretations will be included.
3. How will changes to the BPVC be identified in each new edition? How else will the
changes be identified and delivered?
Changes to the 2013 BPVC will be identified as they are in current editions: in the margins
by notation as per year of the change. There will continue to be Summaries of Changes
published in each BPVC Edition. However, these changes will not be posted or emailed in
years during which there is no BPVC edition/addenda being published (i.e., 2012, 2014,
etc.)
4. How will future editions of the BPVC be priced? What will these prices include?
If you purchase the complete 2010 BPVC, you will receive the complete 2011 BPVC
reprint, which includes Addenda, at no charge. For 2012, ASME will adjust the BPVC price
to reflect the subsequent lack of addenda. The complete 2012 BPVC price will include the
current Interpretations and Code Cases; however, users may also purchase Interpretations
and Code Cases separately, as they are published.
5. With no Addenda, and thus no need to insert them into the BPVC Binders, will there still
be holes punched in the BPVC pages?
There will still be holes punched for the convenience of the user to remove pages as
needed.
Like Unfollow Post Share May 16 at 12:37pm via Email
Kiran Gawade and Purav Desai like this.

18)

Arpita Shah
Does anybody have o-bound type flange calculation guideline?

Like Unfollow Post Share May 4 at 8:49am via mobile

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran What is o-bound type?...May 6 at 9:35am Like

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Arpita Shah Means the flange is like sight glass light glassMay 7 at 9:38pm via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Is it pad type flange? They are usually used to mount sight glasses for
pharma / chemical plants..May 7 at 10:37pm Like

Arpita Shah yesMay 8 at 8:22am via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Check Eil standards. There is reference for dimensions. Calcullation you
can always check with softwareMay 8 at 9:18am Like

Hemant Solanki PAd trype flange sha;ll confirm to B16.5 standard for BCD, OD and number of bolts.
It shall be projected minimum 50 mm out of shell surface.
Pvelite is having option of taking flange type as pad type in nozzle manuMay 11 at 11:09am Like

Arpita Shah Flange shape is not circular so we can not check in pvelite and this flange is not used as
sight glass and light glass.May 18 at 5:08pm via mobile Like 1

Patel Sudhir Compress also have pad type nozzle facility but it is limited to circular shape only. In
your case the opening shape is obround, hence it will have 2 paralle side and semicircular ends. If the
major axis of your obround opening is in longitudinal direction, use this long. axis dimension and model
the pad type nozzle as circular one for the area calculation. Please do not miss to subtract the tapped
hole area loss.May 19 at 5:20pm Like

19)

Purav Desai uploaded a file.


The idea to make such comparison between API 660 and TEMA came to my mind after
replying to Mahadevan Venkiteswaran query in Linked In group.

I tried my best to cover all critical requirements of API 660 related to design, however if
some group members found additional requirements, it can be discussed here for the
benifit of static equipment group members.
PV Newsletter - May 2013_API 660 Vs. TEMA.pdf
Preview Download Upload Revision

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Page 141 of 390

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Like Follow Post Share May 16 at 8:55am


Arpita Shah, Ramdas Kadam, Rohitash Singh Panwar and 8 others like this.

Mihir Jha Useful article..May 16 at 1:21pm via mobile Like

Basheer Mohamed Indeed worth to understand the differences and found API 660 has more
stringent requirement..ty..!May 16 at 8:59pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran thanks Purav for the acknowledgement.


Mahadevan,V
Sent on my BlackBerry from Vodafone.May 17 at 12:21pm Like

Mitul Patel Good work Purav keep it up!!!!....May 19 at 6:20pm Like

20)

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Veera Mani
hi...kindly explain how to calculate the insert plate dimension....in pv ellite we can give
local thickness .but dimesion how to calculate in pv elite any option is there...
Like Unfollow Post Share May 18 at 11:53pm near Azaiba, Masqat

Hemant Solanki Insert plate is non other than increase in local shell thickness. So as per Fig. UG-37
you need to restrict its dimension upto twice opening diameter. In other words beyond this limit you
can not take credit of increase in local shell thickness.
Similarly thickness also need to restrict as pere Fig-UG-37.
In Pvelite as you mentioned specify local shell thickness to take credit of insert plate. As far as diameter
is concerned there is one input in nozzle menu. it is named as limit diamtere. just enter insert plate
diameter there. if you do not enter this then pvelite will by default follows twice diamtere limit of Fig
UG-37. This will be used if we going to limit diameter of insert plate less than twice opening diamtere.
Just remember that in nozzle menu these options are given only to take care UG-37 calculations. so if
significant weight contributes by insert plate then add the same in your Pvelite file.
and also remember that insert plate going to attach with shell by appropriate transition (1/3 or 1/4). So
diameter of insert plate shall be considered as before transition. As if you going to consider insert plate
diameter with transition then you need to take care reduction in available shell area due to
transition.May 19 at 11:11am Like 1

Veera Mani thanks.May 19 at 8:48pm via mobile Like

21)

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
Has anyone done mounded bullets as per EEMUA 190. How to ensure the load case of
differential settlement
Like Follow Post Share May 13 at 8:00am
Aniket Sawant likes this.

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Ding dong! Guys wake upMay 15 at 4:43pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran My question is towards the exact methodology of analysis as specified


by EIL or EEMUA. Any experience sharing???????????????...May 18 at 5:27am Like

Mitul Patel I have worked for the mounded bullet for recent proposal.FEA is mandatory for differential
settlement as per EEUMA 190.May 19 at 6:19pm Like

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Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Hi MitulMay 20 at 5:51am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran My question is on the uneven settlement case if the bullet is mounted
directly on sand. There are two cases where the center portion of the bullet is at max settlement and
the ends at half. There is another case where the center is at half load and the ends are at max load
for settlement. Does this actully increase the bullet shell thickness. How is it analysed in FEA. Is the
whole bullet allowed to act freely to the loads or any restrictions to be provided.May 20 at
5:54am Like

Avedhesh Gupta Its been a longtime once I got the opportunity to analyze different design cases of
mounded bullet. May be will restore and revert in detail later. Till then see if any other member could
respond to it.May 21 at 9:21pm Like

Avedhesh Gupta Conceptually, maximum loads at the ends (spherical) will help in reducing the shell
thickness at the center. But as I said, need to restore a lot.May 21 at 9:25pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Avedhesh, ok noted. But I guess there is also a load case where the
max load is at the center!...May 22 at 7:12am Like

Avedhesh Gupta Sir, I need to read allover again, but surely will share.May 22 at 9:55pm Like

22)

Thiruppathi Rajan
Can any one guide me for fixing the floating head depth for floating type Shell & Tube
Heat exchanger
Like Follow Post Share May 22 at 1:08pm
Tejas Shah likes this.

Tejas Shah Even i also find fr this question,,,

Can any one have idea of crown radius of floating head ?...May 22 at 1:31pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Thank you for raising this post. Deciding inside depth of for floating head is an iterative
process because it shall meet the requirements given in TEMA R-5.11 and CB-5.11 which states that;

For multi pass floating head covers the inside depth shall be such that the minimum cross over area

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for flow between successive tube passes is at least equal to 1.3 times the flow area thru tubes of one
pass. For single pass floating head covers the depth at nozzle centre line shall be a minimum of 1/3 of
the ID of nozzle.

The later requirement is mainly applicable to single pass floating head exchangers where nozzle is
located in floating head with/without expansion joint (axial nozzle).

Also, as per ASME Sec. VIII Div. 1 Appendix-1 sub clause 1-6. L (Inside crown radius) shall be as per
UG-32. Prabhakar Harikrishnanr correct me if i missed something.May 22 at 2:16pm Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan You are right Purav Desai.. also, there a option in Pvelite for providing
Distance between Head centroid to head Centerline.. hr value. This shall also be considered. This hr
location will govern the Flange thickness and it should be for nominal Floating head thickness. this part
will be sensitive.May 22 at 2:49pm Like

Thiruppathi Rajan Thanks for your information. any thump rule for find the crown radius of floating
headMay 22 at 6:50pm Like

Purav Desai Generally crown radius for flaoting head is considered as (0.8 or 0.9 x floating head
flange inside diameter). But it needs to be verified as per TEMA requirements for cross flow area.May
22 at 7:00pm Like 1

Thiruppathi Rajan Thanks for your informationMay 23 at 1:59pm Like

23)

Thiruppathi Rajan
As per TEMA, minimum tube pitch shall be 1.25 times of outside diameter of tube.
What will be the maximum? Is there any limitations? please suggest
Like Follow Post Share May 23 at 2:00pm

Purav Desai Tube Pitch shall always be kept minimum as given TEMA (1.25 x Tube OD) because
higher tube pitch reduces the shell side thermal performance and also increases the exchanger size and
in a way shoots up the cost. For the cases where tube cleaning is required from outside, generally
square (90) or rotated square (45) picth is considered. And for such cases as per TEMA R-2.5 tube
pitch shall be calculated for maintaining minimum cleaning lane of 6.4 mm. This can be larger than
1.25 tube OD.May 25 at 1:51pm Unlike 1

Thiruppathi Rajan thanks for your informationMay 25 at 5:29pm Like

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24)

Thiruppathi Rajan
Hi I have one doubt about floating shell & heat exchanger.

Is this possible to accommodate one pass (tube side) on AES or any TEMA floating type
exchanger?
Like Unfollow Post Share May 28 at 5:54pm

Hemant Solanki I have seen such exchanger where type was of floating head but it was one pass
channel side. In that case it is required to provide internal bellow at floating head to tube outlet nozzle
junction because in order to give one pass flow it is required to cut nozzle at floating head and
corresponding in line shell head. And then nozzle shall be fitted. But in order to do that it will not serve
the purpose of expansion and contraction. So internal bellow is added in between that junction so that
floating head can be still call as floating head.May 28 at 6:24pm Like 1

Manoj Prasad Yes as explained by Hemant SolankiMay 28 at 6:36pm via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran There are a few handbooks which has an indicative sketch of such
arrangement!...May 28 at 9:31pm Like

Chetan Patel This is possible . You hv to take care of tube side nozzle on floating head. There are two
types arrangements one is by shell and other is by HTAS. Htas is using gland packing which more
sturdy then shell's expansion bellow. But gland packing arrangement needs precise machining.May 29
at 9:16am via mobile Like

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25)

Purav Desai

Like Follow Post Share June 5 at 5:09am


Rohitash Singh Panwar and Amardeep Jagtap like this.

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26)

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
If the maximum allowable load of a foundation bolt is provided, how to size the no and
diameter of anchor bolt for vertical vessels to meet the wind and seismic loads
Like Unfollow Post Share June 2 at 10:22pm

Rahul Valand If we consider the vertical vessel/column, there is always a project specific standard
available in which anchor bolt size and quantity is specified for the given diameter of vessel.

As a first step u provide size and quantity as per standard.

If it is not satisfying the required area then u increase the number of quantity till you reach the
minimum pitch (distance required betn two bolt).

Then after as a next step , increase the diameter of bolt.

In a critical case, sometime u have to increase the skirt dia and hence make it flare (now maximum
apex angle comes into picture) to accomodate more number of bolts.

To use high strength bolt is also an another option.June 2 at 11:10pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai I think, the question was raised because normally allowable stress is given for foundation
bolt w.r.t. material. For example for SA-307 use allowable tensile stress as 120 Kg/cm2 and shear
stress as 80 kg/cm2. However I have also seen Owner specifications which specifies allowable loads for
foundation bolt with reference to each size. In this case easiest way is just divide this load by
respective bolt root area and you will get allowable stress for each size. Mostly it remains same for
each size and when you perform the design use thsi stress as manualy entry in design software. Other
procedure for determining size and no. of bolt remains same as described by Rahul Valand.June 3 at
8:21am Like 1

Hemant Solanki The anchor bolts and baseplate must be designed to secure the pressure vessel
under operating and test conditions, including exposure to the maximum design wind or earthquake
load, whichever is greater. If the anchor bolts are too close to each other, the ability of the concrete to
hold each anchor bolt is reduced, and the design is compromised.
The following general rules apply to the design of anchor bolts and selection of baseplates:

1. The number of anchor bolts in a baseplate should be a multiple of four, for example, 4, 8, 12, 16.

2. Anchor bolts should not be placed closer than 0.5 m (18 in.) apart (centerline to centerline). A closer
spacing reduces their holding strength in a concrete foundation.

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3. No fewer than eight anchor bolts should secure a tall vessel.

4. The area within the root of the bolt threads (the root area) is the effective area of the anchor bolts.
The anchor bolt root area is used to determine the anchor bolt stress under the applied loads, and the
bolt number and size that are required to keep the bolt stress within allowable limits.

Sample Problem (it is for only to understand basic engineering which we apply to design anchor bolts.
Taken from Aramco Standard) : Anchor Bolt Calculation
Determine the number of anchor bolts needed and calculate the size of each bolt for a vertical tower.
Given:
A vertical tower with the following parameters:
Empty weight of 10,000 lb.
Earthquake moment of 1,110,000 ft.-lb.
Design wind moment of 4,000,000 ft.-lb.
Bolt circle diameter of 11 ft.
A-325 anchor bolts.

Solution:

In Step 1:
Mearthquake = 1,110,000ft.lbs.
Mwind = 4,000, 000ft.lbs.
Mwind governs

In Step 2:
A B = /4 x (d abc)2
A B = /4 x (11)2
A B = 95 ft.2

In Step 3:
CB = d abc
CB = 11
CB = 34.55 ft.

In Step 4:
T = M/AB W/CB
T = ((4,000,000)/ 95) (10,000 / 34.55)
T = 41, 815 lb./ linear ft.

In Step 5: Since 9.55 ft. < dabc < 11.5 ft., N = 20 As per Aramco Standards. Just check applicable
standards case wise.

In Step 6:
BA = TCB / SBN
BA = (41,815 x 34.55)/(44,000 x 20)
BA = 1.642 in.2/bolt

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In Step 7: Since 1.642 < 1.744 _ Bolt size is 1-3/4 in.

Answer:
The tower requires 20 anchor bolts of 1-3/4 in. diameter.June 3 at 6:07pm Like 1

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @ Thanks guys for such good response. Yes I agree with the above
steps. My question was more focused on the root are of anchor bolt to be considered. I have TEMA
root area which is damn conservative. Could any one be having difference root areas like UNC or
something else.June 3 at 10:42pm Like

Purav Desai The root area often termed as stress area shall be considered from repsective standard
like ASTM A307 or ASTM A 325/325M. There is a table given in each standard which shows area and
tensile load for each size of bolt. Refer the attached photo which shows calculation formulae given in
ASTM standards to find out root area (stress area). Corrosion allowance can also be subtracted if owner
specification ask for corroded root area.June 5 at 5:07am Like

Mehta Mehul I think maximum allowable load for bolt is its allowable stress value in compression or
tension or other other stress application.However root area can be considered from TEMA METRIC
threads.There are also ISO bolts from which you can take root area but be specific for fine or coarse
thread both have different root area.Please refer Denis r.moss & E.U.megassy for pressure vessel
design for your requirement of wind & seismic calculation.June 5 at 10:53pm Like

27)

Thiruppathi Rajan
Hi I have one doubt about floating shell & heat exchanger.

Is this possible to accommodate one pass (tube side) on AES or any TEMA floating type
exchanger?
Like Unfollow Post Share May 28 at 5:54pm

Hemant Solanki I have seen such exchanger where type was of floating head but it was one pass
channel side. In that case it is required to provide internal bellow at floating head to tube outlet nozzle
junction because in order to give one pass flow it is required to cut nozzle at floating head and
corresponding in line shell head. And then nozzle shall be fitted. But in order to do that it will not serve
the purpose of expansion and contraction. So internal bellow is added in between that junction so that
floating head can be still call as floating head.May 28 at 6:24pm Like 1

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Manoj Prasad Yes as explained by Hemant SolankiMay 28 at 6:36pm via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran There are a few handbooks which has an indicative sketch of such
arrangement!...May 28 at 9:31pm Like

Chetan Patel This is possible . You hv to take care of tube side nozzle on floating head. There are two
types arrangements one is by shell and other is by HTAS. Htas is using gland packing which more
sturdy then shell's expansion bellow. But gland packing arrangement needs precise machining.May 29
at 9:16am via mobile Like

28)

Deepesh Shrivastava
Can anyone help me out to calculate MPT (Minimum pressurization temperature) for
Equipment? Or The maximum allowable pressure for equipment at 0 C for equipments
which are having MDMT -46 C??
Like Follow Post Share June 6 at 3:35pm

Purav Desai Verygood Post Deepesh Shrivastava, Accoding to me and Krishna Desai, The term MPT is
related to brittle fracture of equipment that occurs due to embrittlement (Low temperature or Temper
or hydrogen) during startup/shutdown. Low alloy steel equipments suffer most under this kind of
fracture due to their material properties and alloying elements.

MPT is often calculated by Equipment Manufacturer because all kinds of test on materials are carried at
manufacturer shop during fabrication and they also have information from mill @ received base
material.

Reactor fabricated from the Cr-Mo & Cr-Mo-V steel can be subject to Temper Embrittlement (Reduction
in Toughness) after long period of operation at higher temperature (350~550 C). For newly
fabricated equipments, extent of Temper embrittlement can be minimized by controlling alloying
elements (P, As, Sb, Sn, Mn & Si) in terms of weld metal factor X & base metal factor J. However,
during the re-startup of Reactor after maintenance, there are chances of brittle fracture if pressure-
temperature cycle is not maintained properly. The reason is during the operation due to embrittlement,
there is possibility that ductile to brittle transition temperature has already shifted (In other words, for
an example equipment which is designed for -46 C MDMT, after embrittlement there is chance that
the equipment can fail at -29 C also) . It is purely related to material behavior according to certain
operating conditions.

As stated in ASME Sec II D, App. A, temper embrittlement is reversible phenomena hence for new

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pressure equipment usually it is avoided by carrying out heat treatment process during fabrication (ISR,
DHT etc). This is just a temporary solution and once equipment is under operation it will again tend to
embrittle and hence use of MPT comes into picture to avoid possibility brittle fracture during
startup/shutdown. This is the reason; many refiners use a Pressurization sequence to limit system
pressure to about 25% of the maximum design Pressure for temperatures below a Minimum
Pressurization Temperature (MPT) during startup and shutdown to minimize the possibility of brittle
fracture.

For sample calculation of MPT, you may refer to attachment however it is better to ask vendor to
submit that. Also, API is developing a standard API 934F which concentrates on calculation of MPT
values.,,,June 10 at 11:07am Like 3

Deepesh Shrivastava Thanks Purab & KRISHNA.. Yes I know MPT calculation shall be submitted by
Fabricator but being on Licensor side Client has raised a query on our drawing that During start up of
the plant in winter condition (ambient -36 to -46 C) what is the Maximum pressure by which they can
go until the pressure shell wall temperature goes positive OR IN OTHER WORDS Brittle fracture of
material does not take place until some pressure is applied. So we want to calculate that pressure on
which brittle fracture could take place at different temperature. Thumb rule in our company says it is
25% of the design pressure but I could not find any API/ASME reference for itJune 11 at
10:36am Like

Krishna Desai Yesterday my self and purav had the same discussion. 25% of design pressure is
recommended practice and not the API/ASME code Normative requirement. Even Axens is following the
same..June 11 at 10:49am via mobile Like 1

Purav Desai Refer API 571 cl. 4.2.3.6 (a).June 11 at 11:06am Like 1

Deepesh Shrivastava Thanks Purab.. Krishna... However during this time I also studied a bit about
the Calculation of MPT and will post about my findings later.June 11 at 5:26pm Like

Hemant Solanki
In Addition to what Purav and Krishna has explained:
Minimum Pressurizing Temperature (MPT):
It is lowest temperatures at which a pressure greater than 40% of the MAWP should be applied to the
vessel.
Below 40% of the maximum allowable working pressure (MAWP), stresses are considered low enough
to essentially eliminate the risk of brittle fracture in the absence ofsignificant other stresses (such as
those due to weight and differential thermal expansion).

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To establish a minimum design metal temperature, the following should be considered:


-Startup temperature
-Normal and abnormal operating conditions
-Best available local weather data
-Lowest 1-day mean temperature shown in Figure 2-2 of API 650

For vessels without a specified minimum pressurizing temperature, one can be established using the
following guidelines:
The minimum pressurizing temperature (MPT) can be
established from the following:
-Knowledge of the steel types
-Thickness of the vessel
-Minimum temperature for hydrotest, startup, or operation.
3 minutes ago Like

29)

Purav Desai
Nozzle arrangement for Single Pass Floating Head Heat Exchanger.

Like Follow Post Share June 11 at 7:08pm


3 people like this.

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Hemant Solanki
Bellow arrangement for 1 pass floating head arrangement

Like Unfollow Post Share June 11 at 3:49pm


Chetan H Prajapati, Purav Desai, Indrapandian K and 2 others like this.

Purav Desai In one of the project, with Owner permission, I have applied gland and packing type
arrangement for vertical single pass floating head exchanger. Refer schematics of it as attached.June
11 at 7:07pm Like 1

Deepesh Shrivastava Normally Topsoe always provides Gland & packing type arrangements in high
pressure ammonia loops. We had received good results in sealing and easy for maintenanceJune 12
at 11:06am Like 1

Mrudang Mehta In my previous experience, in Petrochemical complex, gland packing is only allowed
in non hazardous, low pressure service.. Surprise to hear that it is used in hazardous service like
Ammonia and that too high pressure.June 12 at 11:20am via mobile Like

30)

Sudhir Sharma

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Dear friends,
I have one query regarding the combined loading calculation in pvelite,

while designing the column of Material SA240-304, the vessel fails in combined loading,
other factor for various loadings are ok, fails nowhere. External stiffner are not helping in
reducing compressive stress.

what should i do for reducing compressive stress.

please comment...
Like Unfollow Post Share June 13 at 8:24pm

Hemant Solanki To increase allowable compressive stress either you need to add stiffeners to reduce
unsupported length. Otherwise increase bottom shell courses thickness.
I suggest again go through each and every input.
Then check in combined loading which case is governing.
If combined loading governs by tensile stress then you have to increase thickness only.
And if combined loadings governs by compressive stress then as explained earlier either add stiffeners
or increase bottom courses thickness.June 13 at 8:33pm Like 3

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Send more details like TL to TL, design condition etcJune 13 at
10:06pm Like

Mitul Patel First check point have you click to use higher allowable longitudinal stress as per UG-
23(d)....which says we can increase allowable compressive stress by 20%.

You may get it pass if failing marginally.

What is stress ratio?...June 14 at 7:37am via mobile Like

Sudhir Sharma thanks all of youJune 14 at 10:31am Like

Hemant Solanki It is 1.2 factor which ASME has allowed for combination loadings. Purpose is either
you decrease wind or seismic loads effect with combination loadings. Or increase allowable stress
value. So ASME has took approach of increasing allowable stress value.
But if you are using ASCE or IBC codes. In these codes there is already load reduction factors 0.7 is
used to decrease these loads. So I think in that case it is not required to increase this allowable stress

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value by 1.2. or still if you want to use then put load reduction factor as 1 in Pvelite input.
Just check your case. If ASCE or IBC is applicable then above can be used.June 14 at 10:35am Like

31)

Hemant Solanki
ASME BPV Code Case 2695

Code Case 2695


Allowing Section VIll, Division 2 Design Rules to Be Used for Section VIll, Division 1
Pressure Vessel Section VIll, Divisions 1 and 2
Inquiry: Under what conditions may the design-by-rule requirements in Part 4 of Section
VIII, Division2 be used to design the components for a Section VIII, Division 1 pressure
vessel?
Reply: It is the opinion of the Committee that the design-by-rule requirements in Part 4 of
Section VIII,Division 2 may be used to design the components for a Section VIII, Division
1 pressure vessel,provided the following conditions are met:
a) The allowable design tensile stress shall be in accordance with UG-23 of Section VIII,
Division 1.
b) The weld joint efficiency shall be established in accordance with UW-11 and UW-12 of
SectionVIII, Division 1.
c) Material impact test exemptions shall be in accordance with the rules of Section VIII,
Division 1.
d) If the thickness of a shell section or formed head is determined using Section VIII,
Division 2design rules, the following requirements apply:
1) For design of nozzles, any nozzle and its reinforcement attached to that shell section
orformed head shall be designed in accordance with Section VIII, Division 2.
2) For conical transitions, each of the shell elements comprising the junction and the
junctionitself shall be designed in accordance with Section VIII, Division 2.
3) For material impact test exemptions, the required thickness used in the coincident
ratiodefined in Section VIII, Division 1 shall be calculated in accordance with Section VIII,
Division2.
e) The fatigue analysis screening in accordance with Part 4, paragraph 4.1.1.4 of Section
VIII,Division 2 is not required. However, it may be used when required by UG-22 of
Section VIII,Division 1.
f) The provisions shown in Part 4 of Section VIII, Division 2 to establish the design
thickness and/orconfiguration using the design-by-analysis procedures of Part 5 of Section
VIII, Division 2 are notpermitted.
g) The Design Loads and Load Case Combinations specified in Part 4, paragraph 4.1.5.3 of
SectionVIII, Division 2 are not required.
h) The primary stress check specified in Part 4, paragraph 4.1.6 of Section VIII, Division 2
is notrequired.
i) Weld Joint details shall be in accordance with Part 4, paragraph 4.2 of Section VIII,
Division 2with the exclusion of Category E welds.
j) The fabrication tolerances specified in Part 4, paragraph 4.3 and 4.4 of Section VIII,
Division 2shall be satisfied. The provision of evaluation of vessels outside of tolerance per

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Part 4,paragraph 4.14 of Section VIII, Division 2 is not permitted.


k) The vessel and vessel components designed using these rules shall be noted on the
Manufacturer's Data Report.
l) All other requirements for construction shall comply with Section VIII, Division 1.
m) This Case number shall be shown on the Manufacturer's Data Report.
Like Unfollow Post Share June 14 at 6:16pm via Email
Rajendra Sharma, Rohitash Singh Panwar and Manoj Prasad like this.

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Would you mind shairng the code case itself, if you haveJune 16 at
9:15am Like

Hemant Solanki I do not have its hard copy yet.


But it's requirements mentioned in post will give guidelines.
However stillASME is developing this procedure to cover all possible criteria.
So I think usage of this code case itself will take time.June 16 at 5:52pm Like

32)

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Dear friends
I have one query regarding the MAWP calculation of tubesheet.
MAWP is calculated based on provided thickness minus corrosion allowance.

Tubesheet is the common component for shell side and tube side. Tubesheet thickness is
calculated based on the 7 conditions which are specified in UHX.

During the vendor drawing review of heat exchanger, i observe that the MAWP of the
tubesheet for shell side and tube side is different.

In my case, the MAWP of tubesheet for tube side is 12.16 kg/cm2 and MAWP of tubesheet
for shell side is 53 kg/cm2.

My question is that the provide thickness of tubesheet is same for shell side and tube side
then how the MAWP value of tubesheet varies that much ?

Please share your views.


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Mahadevan Venkiteswaran The logic should be that the least MAWP of the respective side should
be governingJune 11 at 9:10pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar My question is also the same that least MAWP should be governing.June
11 at 9:12pm Like 1

Rohitash Singh Panwar But for heat exchanger, we have seperate MAWP for both shell side and
tube side chambers.In my case the MAWP of tube side is governing by tubesheet i.e. 12.16 kg/cm2 but
for shell side it is governing by nozzles flange rating (approx 30) because it shows tubesheet MAWP on
shell side is 53 kg/cm2. So my question is that whether it is correct that the MAWP of same tubeshhet
is different for shell side and tube side.June 11 at 9:17pm Like

Sainath Danda If the calculations were done in PV Elite, Check PV Elite input once. In PV Elite MAWP
values have to be entered manuallyJune 12 at 10:47am Like

Sainath Danda One more thing is might be due to change in temperatures on tube side and Shell
sides. But it may not be that much different.June 12 at 10:49am Like

Sainath Danda Please provide the details. Let me checkJune 12 at 10:49am Like

Hemant Solanki MAWP is what corroded component thickness can bear maximum pressure in design
conditions.
As far as exchanger tubesheet is concerned. UHX case is perform for.

1. Ps acting only.

2. Pt acting only.

3. Ps with Pt acting simultaneously


Similar cases further with considering thermal expansion.
For third case Ps and Pt both acting simultaneously. So here tubesheet going to design for differential
pressure.
While calculating MAWP of simple shell or head component only one formula we use.
That is not the case in tubesheet design. Tubesheet assembly consist of tubesheet along with tube to

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tubesheet joint and connecting shell/channel element. While deciding MAWP of tubesheet with shell or
channel side. All these factors needs to consider. Thats why approach is different.
Following are stress cases which decides MAWP of tubesheet as per any one (shell/channel) side.

Tubesheet Bending Stress

Tubesheet Shear Stress

Tube Tensile Stress

Tube Compressive Stress

Tube-Tubesheet Joint load

Shell Stress (Axial, Junc)

Tube Pressure Stress

Tubesheet Extension Stress

After calculating MAWP in these stress cases. Minimum MAWP out of these cases is slected.

Obviously if there is higher pressure on shell side. Then these stress cases will give higher MAWPs on
shell side.
Tubesheet thickness is already selected based on worst case considerations on shell and channel side.
MAWP is what that thickness can bear maximum. So whether that pressure applied in shell or channel
side will affect calculation of MAWP. As it is common element it needs to satisfy both sides individually.
And then minimum out of 2 sides should be fixed as MAWP of that tubeshetJune 12 at
2:57pm Like 1

Rohitash Singh Panwar Sainath : The calculation is done in compress software and it automatically
calculate the MAWP. Temperature on both shell side and tube side is sameJune 12 at
4:28pm via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Hemant Solanki : Rightly explained but as per the calculation of compress ,
it is not taking the minimum value of the mawp for both shell side and tube side......June 12 at
4:34pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai I have a different opinion, for tubesheet thickness calculation considering worst case is
ok but when we talk @ MAWP, it should be separate because we are dealing with combination
chambers. So Tubesheet MAWP calculation on shell side will only consider shell side cases and vice
versa for tubeside.June 12 at 6:55pm Like

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Mitul Patel Hemant Solanki has explained the same thing what we discuss today morning.

I will differ at conclusion part that each chamber shall be separately evaluated.we can not take lower
one.

As per compress report shell side MAWP will become MAEP for tube side.......June 12 at
7:03pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki As Purav has explained, Tubesheet will be treated as common element. Its ok that
this common element will be consider for both shell and channel side separately while deciding MAWP
of corresponding chamber. But Individually while deciding MAWP of tubesheet it shall be minimum of
calculated for both side. Because in operation , pressure will be from both side. So tubesheet will
experience both MAWP (internal) and MAEP (external). So it shall be minimum out of these 2, for
tubesheet (common element).
Please correct me if I missed something.June 13 at 9:27am Like

Mrudang Mehta Guys, we need to understand the use of MAWP to answer this query. Simply putting,
MAWP is the Maximimum Allowable Working Pressure in Hot and Corroded Condition.
Now MAWP is used to determine the hydrotest pressure. Hydrotest pressure of Shell Side and Tube
side are carried out sesperately (to check tube to tubesheet joint failure). So when carrying out
hydrotest of Shellside, MAWP (which may be design pressure) of Shell Side will govern and similarly for
tube side. As tubesheet is common, it will be subjected to different hydrotest pressure. Tubesheet is
already designed for the worst of the three condition as explained by Hemant, but MAWP of tubesheet
cannot be a single value (as correctly shown in calculation result). It will have different MAWPs for
Shellside and Tube side.
Now lets see what happens if the lower of the two MAWPs is taken as MAWP of Tubesheet. Consider a
case where MAWP of Tubeside is lower than Shell Side. So tubesheet has only one MAWP which will
that if Tubeside, the hydrotest of Shell side cannot be carried out as higher pressure as governing case
will become Tubeside MAWP.
So for this reason, MAWP of Shellside and Tubeside are different.
Guys please give your comments if you agree or disagree with my explanation.June 14 at
2:38am via mobile Like 1

Mitul Patel I am fully agree with Mrudang Mehta.

He has explained very nicely same things what I have tried to explain in my earlier post.

MAWP is always separate for each pressure chamber.Which is not influenced by adjacent pressure
chamber.

Because we use this separate MAWP to test those chambers separately.

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The same thing is done by software program which is widely acceptable in industry from years.

I think its clear now.June 14 at 7:32am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki In addition to what Mrudang has explained. Please note that MAWP is not only used
for deciding Hydrotest Pressure. MAWP is a mean by which Client can get idea about whether operating
pressure of equipment can be increased or not. So for common element client will consider MAWP
available on both chambers.

Mrudang, as you have given example. If your channel side MAWP is governed (as it is lower compared
to shell side). And if as per this you have decided hydrotest pressure. Then you can use that hydrotest
pressure on channel side as well shell side. Even though let your shell side is with higher operating
pressure. Because there is no upper limit of hydrotest pressure given by UG-99. Its only minimum
hydro pressure which we calculate. Only its needed to pressurise chamber to achieve operating
scenario. And then checking all joints sustainability.

As per UG-99 (e), the hydrostatic test shall subject the common elements to at least their design
differential pressure, corrected for temperature. So if differential pressure is not much then any
governing MAWP (lower of any side of common elements) can also serve the purpose.

Others can share their views on it.June 14 at 10:37am Like

Mrudang Mehta

Dear Hemant.
1. You said in above post that MAWP is not used to decide hydrotest pressure. Please read clause UG
99 (b). It mentions hydrotest pressure as 1.3xMAWPxLSR. So your statement is completely incorrect.

2. Tubesheet is common element between shell side and tube side but plese note that it is NOT
anyway related to clause UG 99.e as it is not subject to hydrotest pressure on both sides
simultaneously. Hydrotest of Shell side and Tubeside is never done simultaneously so that tube to
tubesheet joint leakage can be detected. Best example of applicability of value UG 99.e is two vertical
vessels mounted in each other with common head in between. S&T HX tubesheet are not good
rxaJune 17 at 12:14pm via mobile Like

Mrudang Mehta example to relate this clause.

3. Name plate of HX had MAWP of SS and TS marked on it.

4. Lastly there ha been lot of brains put in deciding that MAWP of SS and TS will be seperate and there

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is no MAWP of Tubesheet and so it is not mentioned in output of standard softwares like PVelite and
Compress.

4. Conclusion as per my understanding - MAWP of Tubsheet is not lower of SS and TS MAWP. Actually
there is no MAWP for Tubesheet at all. Tubesheet is designed for worst condition ( if agreed by client it
may be designed for differential pressure).June 17 at 12:19pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki

Dear Mrudang,

1. I have only highlighted that MAWP is not only meant to calculate Hydrotest Pressure. Please note
that UG-99(b)(34) also uses design pressure to calculate hydro test pressure. MAWP is also a mean (in
addition to UG-99-b) which gives idea to client that in future we can increase operating pressure of said
vessel upto what extent.

2. I know that as tubesheet is common element. Its obvious that we will carry out hydrotest of
separate chamber. Otherwise we cannot detect leaks. This is also true for vertical vessel with common
head. To detect leak it is required to pressurise one chamber at a time. If client specifies than we can
take effect of UG-99(e ) for deciding minimum hydro test pressure based on differential pressure. I
have only mentioned that lower MAWP from both chamber can still serve the purpose of deciding
hydrotest pressure of both chambers. Because there is no upper limit of hydrotest pressure. Minimum
we can restrict with lower MAWP out of both chambers.
Thanks for your efforts on preparing reply.June 17 at 5:47pm Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari How can you say there is no upper limit of hydrotest...........can u explaneJune 17
at 6:15pm Like

Hemant Solanki

Dear Mr. Tiwari,


Refer UG-99.
As per which ASME has not specified any upper limit for hydrotest pressure. It is only minimum
pressure which all joints should face during hydro test. If we wants to increase hydro test pressure.
Than same shall be done prior consultation with inspector.
the code does not specify a maximum pressure to which a vessel can be hydrostatically tested. If the
vessel experiences visible permanent deformation as a result of the pressure test, the Inspector has the
right to reject the vessel. This, in effect, defines the upper limit on hydrostatic test pressure.
The test pressure should not be so large as to result in visible permanent deformation anywhere in the
vessel.June 17 at 6:23pm Like

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Suraj Kr Tiwari We do seperate hydrotest for shell and tube part so simply we use mawp of shell to
calculate shell hydrotest pressure and vice versa..June 17 at 6:24pm Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari we can use design pressure as mawp if mawp is not given or by choice if client
having no objectionJune 17 at 6:25pm Like

Hemant Solanki Yes. In other words we are stating that this vessel cannot be used above its design
pressure which is now its MAWP. So in future client cannot increase operating pressure of that vessel.
But as there is genuine reason while designing with MAWP. Then yes we can restrict it to design
pressure. And same should be conveyed to client.June 17 at 6:31pm Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari Limit term u can only use when something having both upper and lower. I appreciate
ur replies always.....i know the mawp is least of all calculated pressure for all parts of a vessel taking no
effect of static head...any ways...thanksJune 17 at 6:34pm Like

33)

Purav Desai
I am raising this query on behalf of my friend. For Shell and Tube Heat Exchangers, who
should decide type of tube to tubesheet joint (Static Engineer or Process Engineer or
50:50)? There may be different working style for different company but who should own
this responsbility? I invite members to share their opinions and debate this post with
proper technical basis.
Like Unfollow Post Share May 27 at 3:10pm

Chetan Patel Joint decision. Ownership to static engineer.May 27 at 3:11pm via mobile Like 1

Senthil Anbazhagan The total numbers of tubes and tube types shall be decided by process engineer
as they are only owing HTRI.May 27 at 3:12pm Like

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Purav Desai Members please select your opinion above. Senthil Anbazhagan, total no. of tubes and
tube type is always decided by process. But The query here is for Type of Tube to Tubesheet Joint.
Please relook it once again.May 27 at 3:14pm Like

Senthil Anbazhagan Static equipment engineer scope is only to do mechanical design not process
design.May 27 at 3:16pm Like

Purav Desai Process Team can give information in the form of intermixing of shell side and tube side
fluid is allowed or not, lethal service and any other critical service at last they can say expanded or
welded. But final tube to tubesheet joint type as per ASME Sec. VIII Div. 1 UW-20 or App. A shall be
selected & Owned by Static Enginner.May 27 at 3:17pm Like 1

Purav Desai Senthil Anbazhagan, selection of tube to tubesheet joint type is not a process
design.May 27 at 3:18pm Like 1

Krishna Desai As far as I know, if conditions specified in mechanical specification, static equipment
engineer is totally responsible. However, if it is not specified, based on experience process and
mechanical both can jointly decide.May 27 at 3:21pm via mobile Like

Krishna Desai Purav I am waiting for your answer.May 27 at 3:24pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Agreed Krishna Desai..May 27 at 3:33pm via mobile Like

Mrudang Mehta Selection of Tube to tubesheet joint is sole responsibility of Static Equipment
Engineer. Taking input from process is ok, but process will not be able to guide. Also the TUbe to
tubesheet joint is many times specified in Mechanical design specification for HX which will be
depending on temperature, pressure, service etc. So in case of doubt regarding category if service,
process is consulted but onus of decision and responsibility lies onStatic Equipment Engineer..May 27
at 4:11pm via mobile Like

Shreyas Sutar Of cource static engineerMay 27 at 4:27pm Like

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Arpita Shah 50:50May 27 at 5:11pm via mobile Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari It is related to mechanical strength against stressess devloped by pressure and tem.
So mechanical guys are responsible , requirement of flexible joints are the outcomes of such selections
in some cases. CA and material are inputs from process which also play vital role in such
selections..May 27 at 5:13pm via mobile Like

Sainath Danda It will be based on the information given by Process Engineer and will be decided by
Static engineer. I can say 50:50May 27 at 5:32pm Like

Mrudang Mehta Guys..I would like to debate the idea of those who consider 50:50 between Static
and Process. I fully agree that process input is an inevitable part of the decision making, but Purav's
question it is regarding the responsibility .. And my view the responsibly is only of Mechanical
Engineer..May 27 at 5:43pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai I am also of the opinion that Responsibility (Ownership) of selection of tube to tubesheet
joint lies with Mechanical (Static) Engineer Only. Also, I think I mistyped the third option. Instead of
50:50 it should be 10:90 (Process:Static).May 27 at 5:47pm Like 2

Ramdas Kadam It's Mechanical engineer responsibility.If we need any help from process Engineer we
can ask them @ service or intermixing of fluid can be a problem etc. So finally we can say 10% Process
and 90% Mechanical Static.May 27 at 11:08pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Purav: The input of criticality of the stream leak and properties of the
stream should come from Process. Hence my view 50:50May 28 at 6:04am Like

Gurneet Singh Thakar In an interview with reliance core team, who does the auditing work for
Jamnagar J3 expansion, same question was ask to me, how to choose the type of joint for tube to
tubesheet joint. I told them this is based on many factor like type of fluid or what mahadevan said "
criticality of stream leak". And also said that it is always specified in process datasheet and we follow
that. Which was the usual case with me. There reply was process guys have absolutely no idea about
tube to tubesheet joint. Its static dept who have to decide. Though they didn't said when to use seal

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weld or strength weld or with any expansion but gave a example. Suppose your tube are titanium and
tubesheet is carbon steel, carbon steel cannot be welded with titanium. Thus we can only provide tube
to tubesheet expanded joint. Which process cannot decide!.....May 29 at 11:41pm Like 1

Mrudang Mehta Mr. Gurneet- fantastic post, I too believe that RESPONSIBITY lies on Static Eq Engg
only (may be based in input from Process Datasheets). The expert opinion of that of Mr Mahadevan
help to give clarity. Thanks for the post.May 30 at 4:54am via mobile Like

Purav Desai Appriciate participation from Members and specially new members. I am quite sure that
after above opinions and discussion, my friend and members of this group can handle this topic in
more efficient way than before. Hope to get such participation in future posts also. Thank you.May 30
at 7:40am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Gurneet & Mrudang thanks for the acknowledgment


Mahadevan,V
Sent on my BlackBerry from VodafoneMay 30 at 7:45am Like

Hemant Solanki Below are some of practices followed by BP Refinery for tube to tubesheet joint
selection. If you see it is service conditions decide it in most cases. So it is better that process
department should inform us. Otherwise static should decide and again get confirmation from Process

REQUIREMENTS FOR TUBETOTUBESHEET JOINTS SERVICE/DESIGN(1) -TUBETOTUBESHEET


JOINT DESCRIPTION(2)

Hydrogen Service, Hydrogen Rich Service, or HF acid service -Seal welded

Services where stream mixing cannot be tolerated as specified by the Owners Engineer -Seal welded

Tube outside diameter of 2 inches -Strength welded

Dissimilar materials (ferritic, austenitic, nickelbased(3)) for tube and tubesheet -Seal welded

Clad or overlayed tubesheet(3) -Seal welded

Flexible tubesheet design -Strength welded

Shell side or tube side design pressure 1000 psig or greater -Strength welded

All other services and designs -(*) Grooved and rolled, unless otherwise specified by the Owners

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Engineer(4)

Steam Reboilers in 600 psi service and above -Strength welded

(1) If conflicts arise between different service or design requirements, the more stringent requirements
shall apply.

(2) Grooving and rolling requirements shall be in accordance with Sections 5.0 and 6.0, respectively.

(3) (*) Titanium and Copperbased alloys such as admiralty brass are not seal welded, unless specified
by the Owners Engineer.

(4) (*) When approved by the Owners Engineer, the Manufacturer may utilize an alternate tubeto
tubesheet joint to increase the maximum allowable axial load as calculated in the Non-mandatory
Appendix A, Section VIII, Division I of the ASME code..May 30 at 3:38pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki My opinion is process should specify. And if any constraint is there as gurneet has
mentioned for titanium then static should ask for alternate.
It should be 50:50..May 30 at 3:41pm via mobile Like 2

Hemant Solanki Dear All,


Its question of responsibility.
So I would say. As one of part of Project. We should mutually agree with Process while arriving of any
decision about the joint.
At the end of the day our goal should be to give correct information to exchanger vendor. How we go
for it. will not matter much.June 15 at 8:20pm Like 1

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34)

Purav Desai
Many of you might be aware however I felt it worth sharing. The new feature in PVELite
2013 @ Miscellaneous Weight Inputs for Individual component. This will be very useful for
heavy wall reactors and heavy weight pressure vessels/heat exchangers as well as
columns.

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Like Follow Post Share June 18 at 1:41pm


Ruby Sahu, Manoj Prasad, Mukesh K Prajapati and 6 others like this.

Vishal Sachaniya This Feature already available in PVELite 2012 Miscellaneous Weight Inputs for
Individual componentJune 18 at 2:03pm Like

Purav Desai I think its introduced in 2012 version via internediate patch. Original 2012 version
doesnot include it.June 18 at 2:05pm via mobile Like

35)

Hemant Solanki
IBR-2012 Edition : Figure 23D - Mistake in printing

Hello All,
This Figure 23D is used to find out factor K. which going to use in finding head thickness
as per regulation 278.
Now this Figure contains d/Sqrt(D1) charts. In IBR there is no such term as D1 defined.
After common judgement we found that as this is Square root sign. Under this square root
term shall have unit in square mm. so that output will be in mm. and then we can get unit
less term.

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And also regulation 277 (b) is applicable. Which specifies to use d/Sqrt(D*T) factor to find
out factor K.
So in regulation 278. We should read 277-(b) instead of 277-(a).
Take note of the same. And in Figure 23D read term as d/Sqrt(D*T)
For definition of above terms refer Regulation 277 and 278 of IBR.
Like Unfollow Post Share June 19 at 4:08pm via Email

35)

Hemant Solanki uploaded a file.


Appendix-2-Revised definition of 'go' in 2011a edition of ASME-Sec VIII-Div.1

As per 2011a Edition of ASME Section-VIII-Div.1.


Definition of 'go' is revised as,

go = the smaller of tn (nominal thickness of shell or nozzle wall to which flange is


attached) or the thickness of the hub at the small end.

Which was only the hub thickness at the small end till 2010 edition of code.

The thickness of the hub at the small end : as per Appendix 2- Clause 2-1(a), it is
mentioned that "The hub thickness of weld neck flanges designed to this Appendix shall
also comply with the minimum thickness requirements in Subsection A of this Division."
So Pvelite approach of calculating 'go' thickness as per UG-27 is correct.

It means that ASME has limited 'go' value to minimum connecting shell thickness. not less
than that.

While performing flange analysis as per Appendix-2, Pvelite calculates 'go' value with UG-
27 formula. And takes Flange forging allowable stress as 'S' in that formula. So 'go'
calculated will be higher than connecting shell thickness.
Now in order to satisfy 2011a definition of go if we put go equals to connecting shell
thickness then it will show error in report mentioning calculated 'go' is higher than
provided 'go'.

Lesser 'go' will increase flange thickness and overall dimensions of flange.. So it is
preferable to keep 'go' same as connecting shell thickness. in other words if we follow 'go'
definition as per 2011a, it will give conservative design.

We propose following solution for this in order to satisfy new definition of 2011a:
while calculating 'go' as per UG-27, take 'S' value of connecting shell material (means
higher allowable stress of forging). So calculated 'go' will be less. due to higher allowable
stress. and report will not show any error. fulfilling requirement specified in definition for
'go'.

There can be argument that flange shall be design with low allowable stress.. but this is

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true at flange to gasket joint. it is merely not required to follow it for 'go' calculation. as
'go' will be considered as integral part of connecting shell. so we can take higher allowable
stress while calculating required 'go'.

For 'go' calculation suggested to use higher allowable stress of flange forging (Out of
listing 1 and 2). For other flange stresses it is required to take lower allowable stress of
flange forging (Out of listing 1 and 2).

Note that this calculation of 'go' will mainly affect flange design in case flange and
connecting shell is made up of stainless steel materials. For CS it will not affect much.

Above query is raised to Integraph. And Integraph has accepted to implement it in next
revision of Pvelite.
Rajendra Sharma, Unnikrishna Menon and Mrudang Mehta like this.

Mrudang Mehta

Hi Hemant,

Excellent post. Small clarification, current PVelite or compress doesnot have facility to enter different S
values for go calculation and flange thickness calculation so your proposed solution can be used only if
the software are updated to let us enter two different values.. Is my understanding correct?...June 20
at 2:45pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Yes.


Actually if we try to choose higher stress forging to only sake of go calculation. Then it will be not
correct. As other flange stresses shall be checked with lower allowable stress of forging.
My suggestion is. Select with low allowable stress forging. Let Pvelite calculate go with it. And just
ignore that error which indicates required go is higher than provided.
Lets hope Pvelite come up with some change in program.

My doubt is different.
We have to calculate go as per UG-27. As far as design is concerned if we have to use low stress
values of forging. Than we should maintain go calculated. Because if go will be less than it can
transfer moments to gasketed joint. And which in turn also results into leakage.
So my view is we should finalise flange dimension with lesser go out of calculated and shell thickness
tn. But still we should maintain calculated go which can be more than connecting shell thickness tn.
Please discuss your views on it.June 20 at 3:00pm Like 1

Mrudang Mehta I am not sure software makers will give an option to enter different allowable stress
values as code doesnot mention it.

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Considering your question,my understanding is that keeping go lower (based on higher stress values)
should not cause any leakage problem because this has been used since years in the industry .. But if
the software report is showing error (and not warning) will it be allowed by client to consider the same
?...June 20 at 3:29pm via mobile Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari For non standard flange we choose go equal to shell thk. , your post is for standard
flange or non also. if thk of the part where small hub is attached equal to go then ..... s will come from
shell or hub part...I think larger value will be taken as per your post....but in general practise I have
seen go always = shell thk. for a same pressure part taking diff. s value for design of different
parameter of concern part looks awkward in my view.June 20 at 7:39pm Edited Like

Like Unfollow Post Share June 20 at 2:13pm

36)

Hemant Solanki
Wm2 and Wm1 Formula Difference

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Like Unfollow Post Share June 20 at 11:32am


Rohitash Singh Panwar likes this.

Rohitash Singh Panwar M factor is nothing but ratio of residual stress on gasket to the internal
pressure. So the multiplication factor mp is just the residual stress on gasket so that the gasket will not
blow off during operating condition... So i cant understand the relation of mp with gaskets width which
is taken as 2b for wm1 and b for wm2.June 20 at 4:07pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki You are relating factor 2 with b. thats why this confusion is there. Note that area in
both load is Pi times bG only.

Yes. Gasket factor m is the ratio of stress induced in gasket when the vessel is under pressure to
internal pressure P.
Whereas y is yield stress of gasket material.
So to induce yield stress in gasket typically twice the internal design pressure is required. Hence y can
be replaced by 2 x m x P.

Also note that Y and m terms have relationship. Which approx. y = 180(2m-1)^2 as per Taylor and
Forger Method That's why this difference is thereJune 20 at 4:50pm Like

37)

Hemant Solanki
Some interpretation from ASME about hub thickness calculation

Interpretation: VIII-1-04-08
Subject: Section VIII, Division 1 (2001 Edition, 2002 Addenda); Appendix 2, 2-1(b)
Date Issued: October 14, 2003
File: BC03-1347
Question: Is it required by Section VIII, Division 1 that the hub thickness of an integral
welding neck flange shall satisfy the minimum thickness requirements of UG-27?
Reply: Yes.

Interpretation: VIII-l-04-76
Subject: Section VIII, Division 1 (2004 Edition); UG-27 and UW-l3.3
Date Issued: August 17, 2005
File: BC05-565
Question: A heat exchanger is manufactured with a forged tubesheet with a hub that is
butt welded to the shell as shown in Fig. UW-13.3. Shall the thickness requirements of
UG-27, using the maximum allowable stress for the hub material, be satisfied at all points
along the hub?
Reply: Yes
Like Unfollow Post Share June 21 at 6:24pm via Email
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Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
One of my client spec says 30% additional bolt area for shell and tube girth flange design.
How do you check that in PV Elite. Or is the manual method / excel only the way out.
Like Unfollow Post Share June 23 at 11:08am

Hemant Solanki Yes. Manually you can take care of it. I do not remember any option in Pvelite is
available for this.June 23 at 11:18am Like

Jayesh Rathod calculate Aprovided/Arequired manually from Pvelite output.....June 23 at


11:19am via mobile Like

Senthil Anbazhagan What are the diameters of girth flange and bolt hole? And how many number of
holes you have chosen?...June 23 at 12:00pm Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Check the difference between provided and available bolt area in flame
calculation output.June 23 at 1:21pm via mobile Like

Wang Shun Manually check available/required bolt area in output report..June 23 at


3:06pm via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Thanks for the responses, actually I do not want to increase the bolt
area physically but only check that 30% excess area is available. I think manual method is the
onlyJune 23 at 5:02pm Like

Senthil Anbazhagan Options are available in PVELite alsoJune 23 at 5:04pm Like

Datta Savant In PVElite Flange Design output, you will find, Minimum Reqiured Bolt area and
Avaliable area....You can check from it..........June 23 at 8:17pm Like 1

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Thanks guys for quick response!...June 23 at 11:39pm Like 1

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38)

Prafful Chaudhary
Dear friends,
Anybudy having Vapor belt calculations for heat heat exchanger, so it request you to
provide.
Like Unfollow Post Share June 24 at 4:15pm via mobile
Viral Patel likes this.

Hemant Solanki It shall be as per Appedix-9 (Jacket calculation) of ASME Section VIII-Div.1. Just
ensure to check UHX-4(d) requirement added in 2011a edition of codeJune 24 at 4:25pm Like

Veera Mani In pv elite jacket vessel provision is there ..plz checkJune 24 at 6:35pm via mobile Like

39)

Hemant Solanki
Flange in Pvelite- Using higher allowable stress for small end hub calculation

Just check mark this box in Pvelite if we want to use higher allowable stress effect while
'g0' calculation.

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Like Unfollow Post Share June 25 at 10:47am


Purav Desai, Mihir Jha and 2 others like this.

Senthil Anbazhagan How allowable stress differ for same materials.If hub and shell materials are
same than the allowable stresses are also same.We can't set higher allowable stress for picking this
option in PVElite. Disagree Mr.Hemant.June 25 at 5:04pm Like

Hemant Solanki This is in continuation to what we discussed in last week regarding g0 calculation as
per UG-27.
This post is to highlight only to take care g0 calculation. If we want to use higher allowable stress of
forging to calculate g0 even though keeping low allowable stresses applicable for other stresses in
flange design. This option will help. This is applicable for SS forging and SS shell cases. Where forging

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with higher allowable stress will have same allowable stresses of that of SS plates.
I have not mentioned that allowable stress will differ for same material..June 25 at 5:11pm Like 1

Edgrdm Dguzmn
Help Please , Regarding the Dispertion Stack , design pressure of 3.5 bar , operating
pressure ATM, Is this a Pressure Vessels
Like Unfollow Post Share June 26 at 1:48pm

Hemant Solanki As Design pressure is above 1.013 bar (above atmospheric pressure) so yes you can
design it as per Section VIII-Div.1 considering it as pressure vessel.
Even if you treat operating pressure for criteria still you can use Section VIII-Div.1 as fabrication code.
By the way as you mentioned it is stack. So check whether ASME STS-1 is specified by client or not.
This code is for steel stacks issued by ASME.June 26 at 2:00pm Like 2

Edgrdm Dguzmn Thank a lot it is Asme STS-1 specified thank you so muchJune 26 at 2:46pm Like

Purav Desai Also see below extract of API537; Flare stacks are generally operated at near-
atmospheric pressure and are not specifically designed as pressure equipment. Exceptions to this
include conditions when the flare burner creates a backpressure in
the flare riser that causes the pressure design code to become applicable. In some cases, the bottom
portion of the stack incorporates a knockout drum or liquid seal, or both. When specified in the data
sheets, the stack portion containing the knockout drum or liquid seal may be designed as a pressure
vessel including, if specified, hydrostatic testing and code stamping.June 26 at 4:39pm Like

Edgrdm Dguzmn Regarding the Rubbing plate for Dispersion Stack, ASME STS-1 2010 Edition &
ASME Section VIII Div.1, is it required to have a ASME "U" STAMP for the nameplate?..June 26 at
4:48pm Edited Like

40)

Rohitash Singh Panwar


This is in reference with skirt required thickness for local bending in Compress and Pvelite
software.
In one of our ongoing project, we had designed the column in Pvelite software and the
required thickness of skirt in local bending was coming to be 22 mm. However as per
vendor calculation submitted which were in Compress software ,the skirt thickness in local
bending is coming only 16 mm with all other input parameters are same in both software.
Both the software are performing the calculation as per Equation 10.59 of Deniss R. Moss

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then Why there is difference of thickness in both software. Which software calculation is
correct Pvelite or Compress ?
As per equation 10.59 of Deniss R Moss
Skirt thickness in local bending = 1.76 x (Pxa/mxhxFallow)^2/3 x r^2/3...See More
Like Unfollow Post Share June 9 at 10:33pm
Rajendra Sharma and 2 others like this.

Manoo Friendz please check the design method in pvelite software if it is in analyze method thickness
will be more try to change thisJune 10 at 4:35pm Like

Hemant Solanki In Moss, number of equally spaced loads of magnitude P * a / h is considered.


Where a is bolt location from skirt outer surface and h is height of base block.
P mentioned as maximum anchor bolt force.
Now here induced stress in bolt due to loadings x available area per bolt will definitely not give
maximum anchor bolt force which skirt going to face.- 1st Approach.
However maximum allowable stress of bolt x available area per bolt will definitely give maximum
anchor bolt force which skirt going to face.- 2nd Approach.
in future if loadings on vessel gets increased then skirt thickness calculated with 1st approach will not
sustain further.
But skirt thickness with 2nd approach will sustain.as this skirt thickness is already checked for full
utilization of anchor bolt allowable stress.
It is same as Design Pressure and MAWP concept.
So as per me Pvelite approach is Correct. And anyhow it is conservative also.
But as you mentioned in case we use Compress. Then we need to take care to check for full utilization
of anchor bolt allowable stress.
You should ask your vendor to follow what Pvelite calculatesJune 14 at 12:20pm Like 1

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran I agree with Manoo. If it is analyze then PV Elite calculates with
Borwnell and Young method where the reaction force is transferred to the bottom portion of skirt (i.e.
the portion attached to anchor chair). That can be a reason for increased thickness from PV Elite
report.June 16 at 9:18am Like

Hemant Solanki Question itself is upon design method of Brownell and Young.
If we choose B&Y option. then as per that method Pvelite or Compress needs to calculate local skirt
thickness due bolt reaction force. Its approaches as I discussed earlierJune 16 at 12:16pm Like

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Anish Dani There is another criteria to check the Skirt and Base Plate thickness based on the lifting of
equipment. Stresses must be checked for equipments with heavy shell/head thicknesses and thin skirts.
You might require to increase the skirt thickness (if the skirt is too tall, the thickness can be increased
only around anchor chair area where the tailing lug is attached. Use of spiders can help in certain
cases. We had checked this for Ammonia/Urea reactors based on Kellogg's comments and we had to
increase the base plate thickness in couple of equipments. This is applicable only for high wall thickness
equipmentsJune 26 at 9:40am Like

Susan Shrestha i have also notice the same .... PVElite is taking conservative method i.e. maximum
allowable bolt stress in calculating skirt thickness where else compress takes only maximum induces
stress of different condition. Both methods are same only the reference of book is different. one use
brownell and young where as other use Javed and Farr.....June 26 at 10:20pm via mobile Like

41)

Harry Chacko
Can we use a kammprofile gasket with outer ring for a HX with standard ASME flanges as
girth flanges? In TEMA fig. RCB 6.5 shows only a spiral wound with outer ring can be
used. Does it also allow kammprofile with outer ring?
Like Follow Post Share June 26 at 7:20am via mobile
Anish Dani Can use. Only care must be taken to use proper m and y values if it is a design flange.
TEMA is only a RECOMMENDED PRACTICE and not a Design Code like ASME.June 26 at 8:29am Like

Harry Chacko Thanks. But what proof we can produce if client questions that ?...June 26 at
8:33am via mobile Like

Purav Desai Why owner will question? One of the purpose of outerring in gasket is for the proper
alignment of gasket on flange. Hence if u chose to provide, it is benificial. Also i can see that as u want
to use std. Flange as girth flange. In this case outer ring is required to make it confined joint. Normal
heat exhanger girth flanges have male and female faces which will protect gasket from bursting out.
Where there is no such facing, providing outer ring is an option. Hope this helps.June 26 at
12:25pm via mobile Edited Like

Mrudang Mehta Girth flange gasket shall be confined type as type.. so if girth flange is normal type
and not male-female faces, the gasket shall have a outer ring, so based on this justification, if
kammprofile is used as girth flange gasket, outer ring is required. But my doubt is why do you want to
provide a kammprofile gasket which is expensive. SPWD gaskets are cheap and can suit the narmal

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flanges. Is it that SPWD flange width requirement is higher, so you want to go for kammprofile.?...June
26 at 7:39pm Like

Harry Chacko Client requested for Kammprofile gaskets. But we have the choice of selecting the
flange type. Thats why this questions came up. Thanks Purav Desai Mrudang MehtaJune 27 at
8:15am Like

Mrudang Mehta In that case, if client has asked for kammprofile gasket than you should go for male-
female girth flange to meet the confined gasket requirement. This will be beneficial considering your
HX size is not std pipe size so any ways the girth flange will be non standardJune 27 at
8:39am via mobile Like

Harry Chacko Yea..will do the same.. Thank you.June 27 at 8:48am via mobile Like

42)

Edgrdm Dguzmn
Please help , Dispersion Stack Design pressure 3.5 Bar, ASME STS-1 & ASME SEC.VIII
DIV.1 IS A PRESSURE VESSEL , is it required or not to have a ASME "U" Stamp on the
Nameplate?
Like Unfollow Post Share June 27 at 9:15am
Tanvir Alam likes this.

Hemant Solanki Earlier also U Stamping application is discussed in this forum. You can check that.
Also discuss with your project client. Whether they want assurance for quality of equipment which in
turn results into increase in equipment cost.June 27 at 10:52am Like

Kumar Kashyap I am currently handling the stack with same requirementJune 27 at 12:26pm Like

Kumar Kashyap the stack is already delivered.... no hydrotest and no U-stampJune 27 at


12:27pm Like

43)

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Kewal Kareliya
y for only SS have two allowance stress value.?
also y two stress value are there for SS
Like Follow Post Share June 26 at 11:12pm via mobile

Rahul Valand Two sets of allowable stress is given for austenitic stainless steel and some non ferrous
alloy.

The reason for this is their relatively low yield strength. The higher allowable stress values were
determined at temperatures where the usage would be restricted by the short-time tensile properties.
The higher stresses do not exceed 90% of the yield strength. At these stresses, small amounts of
plastic deformation can be expected.June 26 at 11:19pm via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Agreed that is why flanges are to be designed for lower allowable
stress. How is the lower stress values determined?...June 28 at 2:27am Like

44)

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
What is the best software to compute equipment designed for ASME Section I. Or is it
excel sheets
Like Unfollow Post Share June 25 at 10:30pm
Tanvir Alam likes this.

Senthil Anbazhagan Excel sheet calculations are not acceptable by third party inspectors, better use
softwares..June 25 at 10:33pm Like

Senthil Anbazhagan For static equipments use pvelite, for rotating equipments get advice from
vendors.June 25 at 10:35pm Like

Senthil Anbazhagan U can also use compress for static equipments..June 25 at 10:38pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Pv elite I guess does not do section..June 25 at 10:50pm Like

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Hemant Solanki Pvelite do not have Section I code design. Do not know about CompressJune 27 at
8:46pm Like

Senthil Anbazhagan Wrong Information Mr.Hemant.June 27 at 9:26pm Like

Hemant Solanki PV Elite performs calculations in accordance with ASME Section VIII Divisions 1 & 2,
PD 5500 and EN 13445. Rules from API579 (Fitness for Service) are also included for evaluating the
current state and remaining life of existing vessels.June 27 at 9:49pm via mobile Like 1

Hemant Solanki ASME Section-1 is for power boiler. And if I m not wrong here discussion is going on
for power boiler calculation as per Section-1.
In section one general requirement of design comes under PG. Which in Section VIII-1 comes under
UG. Like wise all sections are different.
Again check. Pvelite is not including design as per this code. Don't know about compress.June 27 at
9:54pm via mobile Edited Like 1

Senthil Anbazhagan Agreed Mr.Hemant, please mention code names fully as I thought you
mentioned Pvelite doesn't have the option of ASME Section VIII div-1.June 27 at 10:06pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Sorry for pitching in late. Section I is power boiler and hence most
commercial software does not include. However in refining industry there are a few application where
section 1 is being specified. I have also heard of a few manufacturers using excel spread sheet and
even if S stamping is specified they get the excel sheet design appraised by the AI. However the
question still remains unresolved is there any commercial validated software which is available for
Section I..June 28 at 2:25am Like

Patel Sudhir As per my knowledge there is no commercial software available for Section-1 design. If i
remember correctly, we did one of the steam drum with excel sheet and it was accepted by both AI
and client.June 29 at 10:57am Like

Purav Desai Yep. I also have a knowledge that most power boiler manufacturing companies like
thermax, L&T HED, they use excel spread sheets or sometimes inhouse developed computer program.
But never heard abt commercial software for section 1 design..June 29 at 11:09am via mobile Like

45)

Mitul Patel

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What is initial bolt preload in design of anchor bolts used for tall columns?

Compress have input for this.What methodology compress uses & what effect it makes on
base ring design?

What additional activities are done in foundation for such initial bolt preload?

Please share your views.


Like Unfollow Post Share July 2 at 8:02pm via mobile
Tejas Shah likes this.

Tejas Shah I am also searching for it as it affect the base plate and compression plate thicknessJuly
2 at 8:26pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Do not know about Compress. But yes Pvelite is having this input in anchor chair
input. In simplified analysis Pvelite is using jawad and farr method. where this preload percentage it
multiplies while calculating compressive stress on concrete. If we put 100% as bolt preload than
induced compressive stress on concrete will get increased.
Initially we do not know how much preload will get applied on anchor bolts at site.
It is like prestressing calculation we perform for flange bolts now a days.
So if client specifically asks then we should go for ita few seconds ago Like

46)

Hemant Solanki
WRC Bulletin 537 : Precision Equations and Enhanced Diagrams For Local Stresses In
Spherical and Cylindrical Shells Due To External Loadings For Implementation of WRC
Bulletin 107

PRECISION EQUATIONS AND ENHANCED DIAGRAMS FOR LOCAL STRESSES IN


SPHERICAL AND CYLINDRICAL SHELLS DUE TO EXTERNAL LOADINGS FOR
IMPLEMENTATION OF WRC BULLETIN 107

D. A. Osage, M. Straub, M. E. Buchheim, D. E. Amos, T. N. Chiasson, D. A. Samodell

WRC Bulletin 537

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Precision Equations and Enhanced Diagrams For Local Stresses In Spherical and Cylindrical
Shells Due To External Loadings For Implementation of WRC Bulletin 107

Bulletin 537 is intended to facilitate implementation of the widely required and used
relations found in the March 1979 Revision of WRC 107 for local stresses in spherical and
cylindrical shells due to external loadings. The original analytical and experimental work of
WRC's Pressure Vessel Research Council delivered has become the an essential tool for
pressure vessel design for 45 years and in its present form for over 30 years. In response
to numerous requests over the years for the precise equations depicted in the figures in
the 1979 version of WRC 107, WRC 537 has been prepared. The objective was to
eliminate potential errors in implementation, facilitate proper interpolation and
extrapolation and permit efficient computation with modern computers.

WRC will no longer deliver WRC 107 when requested for purchase. WRC 537 provides
exactly the same content in a more useful and clear format. It is not an update or a
revision of 107. It is the 2010 printing of WRC 107. It has been meticulously checked.
Those responsible for codes, standards and specifications that require use of WRC 107
should amend those documents to reflect the fact that WRC 537 is equivalent WRC 107
and provides the same acceptable basis for design.

Like Unfollow Post Share July 1 at 3:41pm via Email


Mihir Jha and Mehta Mehul like this.

47)

Veera Mani
I need one clarification for designing tank(vertical ,flat bottom and top bolted cover) as
per sec Viii div 1using pv elite software.client requirement :Design pressure ATM+full of
water+1psi g/-50mm wc to bo condidered.kindly advise how to arrive the final design
pressure for both internal and external based on the above detsils.As per client
statement,this tank is used for storage psurpose only.kindly advise as per ASME how much
is minimum pressure is consider .if any clause is recommended for minimum
pressure.frankly speaking am looking only for heat exchanger.no idea about tank.
Like Unfollow Post Share July 4 at 3:51pm via mobile

Hemant Solanki As far as ASME scope is concerned. Pressure shall be above 15 Psig.
In your case as mentioned internal pressure will be 1 Psi g + pressure due to water head. As it is below
15 Psi g. So this is not in scope of Section VIII Div.1. However you can choose Section VIII-Div.1 as
fabrication code. And thickness can be designed as per Section VIII-Div.1.
Just check with client whether any other API standard or procedure is required to follow or not.
Internal design pressure is 1 Psig + pressure due to full water column at atmospheric temperature
External design pressure is -50 mm WC ( Approx. 0.07 PSI g) at Atmospheric TemperatureJuly 4 at
4:09pm Like

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Veera Mani thanks for yr reply.we referd U1 h (1)& (2) in sec viii state that vessel should not exceed
ing15psi .kindly adviseJuly 4 at 6:43pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki It Is same which I have mentioned.


U-1 (h) (1) states pressure conditions below which vessel shall not be in Section VIII Div.1 scope. And
that limit is 15 Psig as mentioned.July 5 at 2:03pm Like

48)

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
Why does most of the licensor's and clients specify minimum design pressure as 3.5
kg/cm2. Any technical reason?
Like Follow Post Share June 28 at 2:30am
Purav Desai likes this.

Subramanian Siva Sankara Narayanan I think, this is min .req to withstand vacuum ( either
expected or unexpected ). Some time , We will see " Absolute vacuum to 3 bar and I don;t know the
reason for this ...June 28 at 2:35am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran That is not the criteria, it is something else. Lets take a tall column even
with 3.5 Kg/cm2 pressure there is a requirement of vacuum stiffener!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..June 30 at
10:39pm Like

Purav Desai I think it has something related to pressure generation equipments on the upstream. 3.5
Kg/cm2 (g) corresponds to ~50 psi (g), now thsi numnber is arbitrarily picked up for the pumps or
compressors or blowers for their minimum discharge pressure.This could be one of the reason. Correct
me if i am wrong.July 1 at 5:18am Like 1

Krishna Desai It is completely related with Flare system design. Pressure vessel should not have
design pressure less than 3.5 barg, especialy when fitted with relief valve relieving to the flare syatem.
Lower design pressure may result in larger flare system to meet acceptable/minimum backpressure.
The minimum design pressure of 2.0 barg also can be considered for pressure vessel with relief valve
discharging to atmosphere. Relief is normally initiated at design pressureJuly 1 at
10:51am Edited Like 3

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran I have heard a similar response given by Krishna from a person who
has very good working knowledge in process design!..July 2 at 11:09pm Like

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Hemant Nikam It may be related to steamout condition and the Steam considered as LP.(this is the
LP steam Pressure) so in hydrocarbon industry most of the eqpts are cleaned by using steam .July 10
at 12:27am Like

49)

Dushyant Verma
Dear All,
There are two different options (1. Simplified or steel on steel & 2. Neutral Axis shifted)
given for Basering analysis in PV-Elite software. Why basering thickness calculated by
Option 2 is less than compare to option 1..? What are these two different methods..?
Like Unfollow Post Share July 3 at 10:26am
Hemant Solanki PV Elite has 2 different design methods for computing the required thickness of
Basering supports.

1: The simplified method will design thicker basering


The approximate method simply calculates the compressive load on the concrete assuming that the
neutral axis for the vessel is at the centerline.

2: The Neutral Axis Shift Method will design thinner basering


when a steel skirt and base ring are supported on a concrete foundation, the behavior of the
foundation is similar to that of a reinforced concrete beam. If there is a net bending moment on the
foundation, then the force upward on the bolts must be balanced by the force downward on the
concrete. But because these two materials have different modulas of elasticity, and because the strain
in the concrete cross section must be equal to the strain in the base ring at any specific location, then
the neutral axis of the combined
bolt/concrete cross section will be shifted in the direction of the concrete.

For baserings that are located on a steel substructure the recommendation is to use the simplified
method.
Otherwise for the traditional basering on concrete use either method.

Courtesy : Mr. Mitul Patel from L&T-Chiyoda for above explanation.July 12 at 6:23pm Like 4

Bhargav Rudakiya
When the Table UG-84.4 applicable???
Like Unfollow Post Share July 13 at 7:41pm via mobile
Mitul Patel likes this.

Mitul Patel I think we can take advantage of this Table when wish so.

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There is no specific conditions are given for applicability.

Please look any interpretation on this by ASME.

July 14 at 10:18am via mobile Like

Purav Desai Agree with Mitul. For materials covered under Part UCS, unless otherwise specified by
Owner, we can take advantage of this clause and consider warmer temperature for impact testing. For
example, SA 516 all grades have yield strength <40 KSI and hence we can take 10C warmer
temperature for impact testing. In my currect project Owner has clearly mentioned in specification that
advantage of Table UG-84.4 is not allowed and hence we didnot used itJuly 15 at 1:33pm Like

Hemant Solanki Each set of impact tests requires three specimens that must conform to the size and
shape requirements of Fig. UG-84. Each specimen must be tested at a temperature not warmer than
the minimum design
metal temperature unless allowed otherwise by Table UG-84.4. which allows impact test temperature to
be warmer than specified MDMT.
I think this will be useful when testing going to be carried out in such region where to maintain MDMT
is a problem.
E.g. if on site if we wants to carry out impact testing then it might sometime become difficult to
maintain MDMT to test.
Please share your views.July 15 at 6:20pm Like

Hemant Solanki
Joint efficiency for seamless head- UW-12 (d)

Dear All,
In yesterday questionnaire about static equipment, there was one question about decision
of joint efficiency for seamless head

Q. Two head to shell joints, one joining a seamless Hemispherical head to shell was
radiographed for full length and the other joint joining seamless std. torispherical head to
shell was spot radiographed,
The weld joint efficiency for each of these heads respectively will be:
a. 1, 0.85
b. 1, 1
c. 0.85, 1
d. 0.85, 0.85

From above options correct answer is (b) . Joint efficiency of head in both case will remain
1.

Its answer lies in UW-12(d) It's applicability is as described below:

The shells and heads of vessels which are considered seamless. The Efficiencies used to
calculate these vessel parts are not found on Table UW-12 but are instead listed in
paragraph UW-12(d).
It's states that

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"Seamless vessel sections or heads shall be considered equivalent to welded parts of the
same geometry in which all Category A welds are Type No. 1 (Why Type No.1 ? for ease
in radiography).
For calculations involving circumferential stress in seamless vessel sections or for thickness
of seamless heads, E=1.0 when the spot radiography requirements of UW- 11(a)(5)(b) are
met. E= 0.85 when the spot radiography requirements of UW-11(a)(5)(b) are not met, or
when the Category A or B welds connecting seamless vessel sections or heads are Type
No. 3, 4, 5, or 6 of Table UW-12 (Why for these types? Because these are not easily
radiographable. Type 3 to 6 cannot be radiographed by Code rules)."

In above question, for both mentioned cases fabricator has satisfied minimum spot
radiography requirements of UW- 11(a)(5)(b). So joint efficiency will be 1 in both case
while calculating seamless head thickness. (This will be RT-2 Marking)
If in case they would have mentioned that head to shell junction is not satisfying minimum
spot radiography requirements of UW- 11(a)(5)(b). then seamless head will be required to
design with joint efficiency equals to 0.85 even though it is procured seamless. (This will
be RT-3 Marking).

I would like to give one interesting example on above discussions :


Code Shop A buys a rolled and welded shell from Code Shop B.
Shop B fully radiographs the Type 1 weld and the shell part will be delivered to Shop A
with a joint E of 1.0. which is essentially equal to a seamless shell.
Now Code Shop A welds on two seamless formed heads. Unless Shop A performs at least
Spot RT on the Category B welds (or Category A weld in case of Hemi head) connecting
the heads to the shell, Joint efficiency E will be 0.85 for calculating shell and head
thickness. Even though Shop B has performed Full RT on rolled shell and made it
equivalent to seamless. And Shop A has procured seamless heads.

Remember that there only two (2) joint efficiencies possible for Seamless Shell and
Seamless Heads they are; 1.0 or 0.85

1.0 when the rules of UW-11(a)(5)(b) have been applied (UW- 52 Spot RT applied).
0.85 when the rules have not been applied. (UW-52 Spot RT not applied).
DO NOT GO TO TABLE UW-12 FOR THE 'E' TO USE IN SEAMLESS HEADS OR SEAMLESS
SHELLS.

FYI : in above question hemispherical head is considered seamless. Actually as per code
only eliptical and torispherical is considered as seamless. Not hemispherical. We can
assume it seamless if Full RT is carried out on weld joints of hemispherical head. Still
above rules apply while calculating hemispherical dish end thickness.

This is what I understood from UW-12 (d).

Members can share their views on it.


Like Unfollow Post Share July 16 at 10:47am via Email
Patel Sajit Here for hemispherical head to shell joint no issue of joint efficeincy. for tori head to shell
joint :only one spot is taken as per question langauge.Hence as per uw-12d it is not complying

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requirement of uw11a5b hence joint efficiency for tori head shall be 0.85. If additional spot taken, this
adfitional spot is addition to uw-52 than joint effieciny shall 1.0 because this will satisy requirement of
uw11a5b.July 16 at 11:20am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Even though they took one spot. But as mentioned in question it is taken at shell to
head joint. So it is complying UW- 11(a)(5)(b) requirement.
Hence E=1 is correct in both case..July 16 at 11:30am Like

Chetan Patel
Dear friends, I have one filter with div. 2 design code and quick opening closure is there
and moc alloy 825. As per clause no. 5.5.2.1 (a) (2), fatigue analysis is required.
Now vendor is telling that fatigue analysis not required as per cl. 5.5.2.3 step 6, as quick
closure fall in shear ring closure category.
Need your view and understanding.
Like Unfollow Post Share July 16 at 11:32am via mobile
Brijesh Patel and Chetan H Prajapati like this.

Brijesh Patel I don have answer for yr que but QOP must not be used if it is Hydrogen Service as per
UOP. We are changing our QOC for one of the coelescer as it is H2 service.

July 16 at 3:22pm Like 1

Hemant Solanki Dont know much about its fatigue analysis requirement.
But I want to share some points on quick opening closure as per Div.2 for our group members.

a) General Design Requirements


Quick-actuating closures shall be designed such that:
1) The locking elements will be engaged prior to or upon application of the pressure and will not
disengage until the pressure is released.
2) The failure of a single locking component while the vessel is pressurized will not:
i) Cause or allow the closure to be opened or leaked; or
ii) Result in the failure of any other locking component or holding element; or
iii) Increase the stress in any other locking or holding element by more than 50% above the allowable
stress of the component.
3) All locking components can be verified to be fully engaged by visual observation or other means
prior to application if pressure to the vessel.
4) When installed:
i) It may be determined by visual external observation that the holding elements are in satisfactory
condition.
ii) All vessels shall be provided with a pressure-indicating device visible from the operating area and
suitable to detect pressure at the closure.

b) Specific Design Requirements


Quick-actuating closures that are held in position by positive locking devices and that are fully released
by partial rotation or limited movement of the closure itself or the locking mechanism and any closure
that is other than manually operates shall be so designed that when the vessel is installed the following
conditions are met:
1) The closure and its holding elements are fully engaged in their intended operating position before
pressure can be applied in the vessel.
2) Pressure tending to force the closure open or discharge the contents clear of the vessel shall be

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released before the closure can be fully opened for access. The designer shall consider the effects of
cyclic loading, other loadings, and mechanical wear on the holding and locking components.

c) Alternative Designs for Manually Operated Closures


Quick-actuating closures that are held in position by a locking mechanism designed for manual
operation shall be designed such that if an attempt is made to open the closure when the vessel is
under pressure, the closure will leak prior to full disengagement of the locking components and release
of the closure. Any leakage shall be directed away from the normal position of the operator.

d) Supplementary Requirements
Annex 4.B provides additional design information for the Manufacturer and provides installation.July
17 at 4:20pm Like 1

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Hemant Solanki
This is the simplest explanation of UW-12 (d) requirements to decide E for Seamless
components while doing thickness calculation as per code even though components are
made up seamless without any joints.

Like Unfollow Post Share July 17 at 10:02am via Facebook for Windows Phone
Darshan Rajput, Purav Desai, Brijesh Patel and 7 others like this.

Patel Sajit Good one for understanding, But applicable when all components both head, shell is
seamlessJuly 17 at 10:56am via mobile Like 1

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Hemant Solanki Yes.


Even with head and shell which are fully radiographed over its weld seams to consider it as seamless
shell and headJuly 17 at 10:59am Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari If u are saying seamless then why u written no category A weld..July 17 at
2:52pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Because that example is covering seamless pipe welded to seamless head. So
practically in that case there is no Category A joint exist. If you observe in that figure even though
Category A joint is not exist still joint efficiency E taken as 0.85 in shell thickness calculation as it has
not followed minimum spot radiography requirement at both end of shell to dish end joint. At one end
spot radiography is followed and on another end not followed the same.

Seamless vessel sections or heads shall be considered equivalent to welded parts of the same geometry
in which all Category A welds are Type No. 1 and fully radiographed over its weld seam.

In yesterday example Shop B also did the same. They fabricated shell with full radiography applied
over its long weld seam i.e. Category A. and then same is dispatched to Shop A. so this shell course
can be treated as seamless component even though existence of Category A weld. Still In order to take
joint efficiency E as 1 in calculation, UW- 11(a)(5)(b) requirement shall be met by Shop A while testing
shell to head joint at both ends (i.e. Category . On both shell to dish end joint (Category Shop A can
select portion which intersects with Category A joint (i.e. T joint) for spot radiography. Main concern is
to satisfy UW- 11(a)(5)(b) requirement in order to take joint efficiency E as 1 in thickness calculation of
both shell and dish end.July 17 at 3:38pm Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari I think in UW-12(d) ASME should add one more thing i.e Degree of radiography is full
when it states seamless vessel sections or heads shall be considered equivalent to welded parts of the
same geometry in which all Category A weld are Type No.1July 18 at 7:15am via mobile Like

Thiruppathi Rajan
I have one doubt about Pass partition plate. As per TEMA RCB 9.132, that formula has q
(pressure drop across PP plate). Which will be that, the pressure drop shall be taken from
process data sheet, or different. please reply
Like Follow Post Share July 18 at 10:54am
Purav Desai Generally most Client specifications ask to design pass partition plates for allowable tube
side pressure drop as per datasheet. Also as per API 660, cl. 7.4.2 "The pressure differential used to
calculate the pass-partition plate thickness in accordance with TEMA (8th edition), RCB-9.132, shall be
the allowable tube-side pressure drop of the entire exchanger unit."..July 18 at
11:45am Edited Like 1

Mihir Jha Design Of Pass Parttion plate or Longitudinal baffles follow the same procedure. Pass
partition is designed for maximum tube side pressure drop and longitudunal baffles is designed for the
shell side pressure drop. These values shall be taken from process datasheetJuly 18 at
11:46am Like

Purav Desai
Extract of Codecase 1855-1_Code stamping for Design as per Multiple ASME Sections.

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Like Follow Post Share July 22 at 7:59am


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Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
Can a condenser be designed for Shell side and channel side as per ASME Section VIII
division 1 and the tubesheet to ASME Section 1 to take advantage of the flexible
tubesheet. Has anyone actually executed such a design. Mind throwing light on this
Like Follow Post Share July 20 at 3:40pm
Mrudang Mehta Had done exactly same design when in LTC for Qatar project.. Vendor was IIlsung
KoreaJuly 20 at 4:18pm via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Was it code stamped. Did AI object to code mix up. Was the flange part
of tubesheet thickened due to hoop stressJuly 20 at 4:37pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Hemant / Purav any reply to my query..July 22 at 12:44am Like

Purav Desai Hi Mahadevan Venkiteswaran, I checked ur query with one of the best Korean
manufacture (DKME), they replied to me that in such sitauations, code case 1855-1 shall be referred.
Refer the beow link for code case 1855-
1.http://internal.goscheck.com:8080/QC/QC_Tools/1855.pdfJuly 22 at 7:41am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Thanks Purav, as usual a crisp replyJuly 22 at 10:27pm Like 1

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Pramod Kshirsagar
What is minimum gasket seating width to be considered in Flange Design?
Like Follow Post Share July 24 at 9:24pm
Susan Shrestha for recommended gasket width refer ASME sec VIII div 1 appendix 2July 24 at
9:32pm Like 1

Piyush Patel As per temaJuly 24 at 9:33pm via mobile Like

Pramod Kshirsagar thanksJuly 24 at 9:36pm Like

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Pramod Kshirsagar I will check the difference in ASME and TEMA for optimizing the design and
commentJuly 24 at 9:37pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Minimum required gasket width should be calulated by. b bolt area x
allowble stress) / (2x 3.14 xG x y)July 25 at 12:08am via mobile Like 1

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Hemant Solanki
Appendix 2 - Bolt Spacing Correction Factor

Appendix 2 Bolt Spacing Correction Factor


It is a well known fact that if too few bolts are used on a flange it is possible to develop
secondary bending stresses in between the bolts that would lead to non-uniform
compression on the gasket. Excessive bolt spacing can result in a flange that is more
prone to leakage. The well-known Taylor Forge Bulletin 502 Modern Flange Design
contained an equation to calculate maximum bolt spacing as well as an equation to adjust
the design moment when the bolt spacing exceeded a certain limit. Many companies
invoke these rules as part of their internal specifications, but there has always been
resistance within ASME Section VIII to add these rules to Appendix 2. Many committee
members argued that if its not broke, dont fix it, meaning that the Appendix 2 flange
design rules have been in the book now for over 45 years without this bolt spacing
correction factor, so they fail to see the need to add it at this time. However from an
engineering point of view, it is hard to ignore the presence of this additional stress on the
flange and potential for leakage of the joint. With the current provision in UG-99(g),
leakage is a Code issue for flanged joints, and the spacing limitation is appropriate. The
compromise that was reached during the balloting of this item was that the bolt spacing
and correction factor rules would be introduced into Appendix 2, but they would only
become mandatory when the vessel is designated for lethal service, or when the user or
his designated agent specifies the use of these rules.
Like Unfollow Post Share July 25 at 6:25pm via Email
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Hemant Solanki
UG-19 (a) (2) - (a) (3)

UG-19(a)(2) - Mean Metal Temperature Design-


Section VIII, Division 1 permits the design of common elements of vessels made up of two
or more chambers to be based on differential pressure acting on the common
element, as well as an mean wall temperature. Detailed rules addressing differential
pressure design as well as mean metal temperature design were added to the Code in the
2006 Addenda. The version of paragraph UG-19(a)(2) addressing mean metal temperature
design resulted from some final "wordsmithing" that took place during the
balloting of this item. Upon later review of this paragraph, as well as the Intent
interpretation that was published, it was determined that the previous words could use
some clarity. In UG 19(a)(2) it previously stated: "When mean metal temperature design
is used, the maximum design temperature of one of its adjacent chambers shall not
exceed the maximum common element design temperature determined in accordance
with UG-20(a)." This is wrong, because it suggests that the mean wall temperature of the

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common element can never be less than the maximum design temperature of one of the
chambers. The only way this could be true is if the maximum design temperature of both
chambers is identical. The paragraph was revised to read: "When mean metal temperature
design is used, the maximum common element design temperature determined in
accordance with UG-20(a) may be less than the greater of the maximum design
temperatures of its adjacent chambers; however, it shall not be less than the lower of the
maximum design temperatures of its adjacent chambers."

UG-19(a)(3) Example :
Here is an example of a Utube heat exchanger (attached image) whereby heat transfer
takes place between the shell side and tube side fluids. The shell side fluid enters the heat
exchanger at 300F and exits at 240F. The tube side fluid enters at 90F and exits at
120F. If one were designing this heat exchanger based on the maximum design
temperatures from either chamber, then the tubes would be designed based on a
maximum temperature of 300F. However UG-20(a) permits the design temperature to be
based on mean metal temperature (through the thickness) expected under operating
conditions. The mean metal temperature shall be determined by computation or by
measurement from
equipment in service under equivalent operating conditions.
Note: Nonmandatory Appendix C provides guidance on obtaining the operating
temperature of vessel walls in service.
If the designer of this heat exchanger wishes, he can reduce the maximum design
temperature for the common elements (tubes and tubesheet) based on a mean wall
temperature calculated from a heat transfer analysis, or perhaps based on previous
operational experience. Depending upon the fluid flow in each of the chambers, it is
possible that the mean wall temperature of the tubes would be significantly less than the
actual temperature on the shell side of 300F. In this example the SB-359 tubes can be
designed for 145F. One reason he may want to take advantage of a mean wall design
temperature, would be to make use of Appendix 23 which provides an alternative
procedure for establishing the maximum allowable external working pressure for heat
exchanger tubes. Appendix 23 rules are based on an actual external proof test, and often
result in a much higher external pressure rating than one would achieve by direct
calculations per UG-28. However Appendix 23 limits copper tubes to a maximum design
temperature of 150F. So unless one takes advantage of establishing the actual mean wall
temperature in operation for this heat exchanger, the designer would not be able to make
use of Appendix 23 rules.
Like Unfollow Post Share July 25 at 6:14pm via Email
Rajendra Sharma and Jong Dai Park like this.

Rohitash Singh Panwar I think one thing we need to take care for designing the tubes for neam
metal temperature is that...the tube side flow should be continuous....

July 26 at 9:03am via mobile Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Code Case 2651 - Rules for the Design of Electric Immersion Heater

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The current rules for reinforcement of multiple openings in flat covers used to support
electric element heaters result in greater thicknesses than rules consistent with those in
Part UHX. Flanged electric immersion heaters consist of tubular electric heating elements
typically mounted in multiple penetrations in ASME B16.5 blind flanges. Under the current
Code rules and interpretations, a flanged electric immersion heater element support plate
is not considered a tubesheet but rather an unstayed flat head or cover.
Therefore, the rules in Part UHX are not applicable and the cover thickness requirements
are calculated using the formulas and rules in UG-34 and UG-39. For multiple
penetrations, the rules in UG-39(d)(2) require the value under the square root sign in
formula UG-34 (c)(2), Formula (2) to be doubled for both operating and bolting
calculations. This causes the thickness to be unnecessarily greater than that computed
using the Part UHX methodology.
Typically blind flanges are used for the electric immersion heater element support plate.
However it is not uncommon for a manufacturer to be forced to use the next higher class
of blind flange in order to achieve the minimum thickness requirements for both operating
and bolting as calculated by UG-34 and UG-39. Moreover the required thicknesses as
determined by these rules are typically 20% to 30% thicker than similar calculations for
heat exchanger tubesheets subjected to the same pressure and temperature. The
Subgroup on Heat Transfer Equipment of Section VIII developed special rules for the
design of immersion heater element support plates, based upon the rules in UHX-12 for U-
tube tubesheets. These new rules will be published in a Mandatory Appendix in VIII-1 in
the 2011 Addenda. An early implementation Code Case, Case 2651, has been approved
for use, effective June 25, 2010. Note that some minor revisions were made to this Case,
and Revision 1 (Case 2651-1) was approved for use on September 8, 2010.

Like Unfollow Post Share July 25 at 6:28pm via Email


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Ronak Patel
What factor of safety considered in ASME SEC VIII Div.I??

Asked in Godrej & Boyce interview


Like Unfollow Post Share July 19 at 6:40pm via mobile
Viral Patel likes this.

Hemant Solanki uts/3.5 or 2/3*YS.July 19 at 6:56pm via mobile Like 2

Hemant Solanki THE ALLOWABLE TENSILE STRESSES ARE BASED ON THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA:

(1) AT TEMPERATURES BELOW THE CREEP/RUPTURE RANGE, THE LOWEST OF:


(A) 1/3.5 OF THE SPECIFIED MINIMUM TENSILE STRENGTH.:
(B) 1/3.5 OF THE TENSILE STRENGTH AT TEMPERATURE;
(C) 2/3 OF THE SPECIFIED MINIMUM YIELD STRENGTH;
(D) 2/3 OF THE YIELD STRENGTH AT TEMPERATURE.

IN ADDITION, FOR AUSTENITIC STAINLESS STEELS AND CERTAIN NICKEL AND NICKEL ALLOYS,
EXCLUDING BOLTING, FLANGES, AND OTHER STRAIN SENSITIVE USEAGE WHERE SLIGHTLY
GREATER DEFORMATION IS NOT OBJECTIONABLE, THE FACTOR ON THE YIELD STRENGTH AT

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TEMPERATURE MAY BE INCREASED FROM 2/3 TO 0.9.


THIS GIVES ANOTHER, HIGHER, SET OF ALLOWABLE STRESSES FOR DESIGN.

(2) AT TEMPERATURES IN THE CREEP/RUPTURE RANGE, THE LOWEST OF:


(A) 1.0 OF THE AVERAGE STRESS TO PRODUCE A CREEP RATE OF 0.01% IN 1,000 HOURS (ASSUMED
TO EQUAL 1% IN 100,000 HOURS);
(B) 0.8 OF THE MINIMUM STRESS TO PRODUCE RUPTURE AT THE END OF 100,000 HOURS;
(c) 0.67 OF THE AVERAGE STRESS TO PRODUCE RUPTURE AT THE END OF 100,000 HOURS.

July 27 at 12:07pm Edited Like 1

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Hemant Solanki
BASIS FOR ESTABLISHING ALLOWABLE COMPRESSIVE STRESSES:

THE BASIS FOR ESTABLISHING ALLOWABLE COMPRESSIVE STRESSES IS GIVEN


IN APPENDIX 3 OF SECTION II, PART D. THESE BASIS ARE:

(1) FOR CYLINDERS UNDER AXIAL LOADINGS, THE STRESS IS THE LOWEST OF:
(A)1/4 CRITICAL BUCKLING STRESS PLUS 50% FACTOR FOR TOLERANCE;
(B) 1/2 SPEC. MINIMUM YIELD STRENGTH OR YIELD STRENGTH AT TEMP.;
(C) 100% AVERAGE STRESS TO PRODUCE CREEP RATE OF 1% IN 100,000 HR.;
(D) 100% ALLOWABLE STRESS IN TENSION AT DESIGN TEMPERATURE.

(2) FOR CYLINDERS & TUBES UNDER EXTERNAL PRESSURE, THE LOWEST OF:
(A) 1/3 CRITICAL BUCKLING STRESS PLUS 80% FACTOR FOR TOLERANCE;
(B) 1/3 SPEC. MINIMUM YIELD STRENGTH OR YIELD STRENGTH AT TEMP.;
(C) 67% AVERAGE STRESS TO PRODUCE CREEP RATE OF 1% IN 100,000 HR.;
(D) 100% ALLOWABLE STRESS IN TENSION AT DESIGN TEMPERATURE.

(3) FOR SPHERES & SPHERICAL PARTS.OF HEADS UNDER EXTERNAL PRESSURE,
THE LOWEST OF:.
(A) 1i4 CRITICAL BUCKLING STRESS PLUS 60% FACTOR FOR TOLERANCE;
(B) 1/4 SPEC. MINIMUM YIELD STRENGTH OR YIELD STRENGTH AT TEMP.;
(C) 50% AVERAGE STRESS TO PRODUCE CREEP RATE OF 1% IN 100,000 HR.;
(D) 100% ALLOWABLE STRESS IN TENSION AT DESIGN TEMPERATURE.
Like Unfollow Post Share July 27 at 12:19pm
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Hemant Solanki
Graphite Block Heat Exchangers

Graphite materials are used in heat exchangers because they provide good refractory and
mechanical properties but still maintain a high thermal conductivity.
Graphite heat exchangers provide excellent corrosion resistance to a wide variety of
chemicals and are therefore commonly used in the following industries such as; chemical
refining and processing, petrochemical, food and beverage, pharmaceutical, fertilizer, steel
pickling, mining and metal finishing.

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Types of Graphite Heat Exchangers


Cubic Heat Exchangers
Manufactured from a solid block of graphite with a square cross-section, the Cubic Block
type heat exchangers is a simple design that is easy to maintain. The solid graphite block
is kept in compression so this design is resistant to thermal and hydraulic shock as well as
external loads.

Description
The graphite block is maintained under compression by assembly plates tightened by tie
rods. Each lateral face of the block is drilled with parallel cylindrical holes to allow fluid
flow. The rows of holes are alternated through the thickness of the block.. Headers can be
equipped with baffle plates to provide a multipass design if needed. This optimises the
distribution of the two fluids by making conditions as close as possible to real
countercurrent flow, which is particularly useful in energy recovery applications. It is also
possible to vary the cross section or to have split flow. PTFE gaskets are used between the
block and headers - no other gaskets are required.

Advantages

* No gaskets or cemented parts between flow channels.


* Resistant to thermal shock
* Easy cleaning

* short channels
* simple dismantling and assembly

The main reason for employing Polybloc Graphite Block Heat Exchangers is their great
flexibility. Best described as a series of block heat exchangers staked together and
installed in a shell, POLYBLOC(r) Heat Exchangers are modular which makes maintenance
and expansion easy.

Corrosive fluids contact only the impervious graphite blocks having complete resistance to
all acids, alkalis and solvents with the exception of a few strong oxidizing agents. The
POLYBLOC(r) steel shell can be lined with suitable material or furnished in alloy materials
to resist practically all corrosives, thereby allowing handling of two corrosive fluids.
Advantages:

* Rapid replacement of damaged blocks due to compact modular design


* High thermal efficiency, flexible in design and Compact
Easy maintenance (cleaning and block replacement are very simple / simple dismantling
and assembly)
* Corrosive media can be used in both service and process sides
* Capacity can be increased by adding block elements

Features / Design Options:

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* ASME Construction and Stamp Available High Pressure Design


* Radial Multipass
* Axial Multipass
* Four Available Impregnations
* Large Diameter Process Holes Available

Application:
* Overhead condensers and sump coolers
* Pickling line heaters
* Reactor heat exchangers; Including hydrolysis, polymerization or condensation
reactions, where heat must be removed or supplied rapidly, during the reaction.
* Circulation coolers for quenchers
* Heating or cooling of corrosive fluids with water, brine, steam, gases or fluids.
* Boiling liquids in evaporation or distillation plants, etc.

Polytube Graphite Shell and Tube Heat Exchangers


Graphite shell and tube heat exchangers are used as heaters, coolers, condensers, falling-
film coolers, evaporators and absorbers, especially in the treatment of:

* hydrolic acid
* sulphur acid
* hydroflouric acid
* phospheric acid
* chlorinated acid
* organic and inorganic media
* waste acids
* combustion gases
Advantages:

* Low pressure drops and high efficiency


* Large heat exchange area
* Excellent resistant to stress and pressure surges
* Special grades of tubes with higher strength and better corrosion resistance are
available
* The units are easy to repair and bundles can be replaced
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2 people like this.

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Hemant Solanki
Effective gasket width during different loading conditions of flange.

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Hemant Solanki
Tube to Tubesheet joint effect on Tubesheet thickness

I have gone through UHX but can not find the effect of tube to tubesheet joint type on
tubesheet thickness calculation.
In one case I've checked below results with software:

Expanded only, expanded with 1 groove, expanded with 2 groove: same result for 3 cases
143mm

Welded (all methods including a>1.4t, t<a<1.4t): 161

Welded and expanded (all possible combination): 143

I have below questions:

1- How the joint type (weld or expand) affect the calculation ? where in UHX it is clarified
?

2- When we have "Strength welded plus lightly expanded" :

2-1- What is the sequence?

2-2- What is the difference between lightly expanded and expanded? Is the difference just
about tube wall thinning or existence of grooves govern the identification?

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2-3- Can we consider this as "welded and expanded" or it's just "welded" and expanding is
not participating in load carrying?

Any comments and discussion is highly appreciated.


Like Unfollow Post Share August 1 at 9:35am via Email
Kiran Gawade likes this.

Viral Patel

Hemant,
1) I think there is no any direct impact of Tube-Tubesheet Joint in Tubesheet design apart from Tube
Expansion ratio. If we will consider welded only, we will have to consider length of expansion (lhx) as
0 which will increase your required tubesheet hickness.
2) I have never seen a case where only strength welded is specified. In majority cases, Strength
welded with light expansion will be there as light expansion will not allow shell side fluid to enter in
space between tube and tubesheet.
3) First strength weld will be done and after that expansion will be done so that expansion will not
restrict gases to come out caused during welding.
This is debatable topic as if u do welding first and then do the expansion, it will damage tube-tubesheet
weld.
But if you refer Saudi Aramco specification, it is specified that welding is to be done first.
4) Type of expansion does not depend on existence of grooves. It depends on tube wall thinning.
5) light expansion doesnt take part in load bearing capacity.
And hence Some company does not allow to consider light expansion in UHX calculation.

Lets take view of other people also.August 1 at 1:44pm Edited Like

Pramod Kshirsagar 3) Weld ability is decreased if it is done after expansion because of cold
hardening of expanded surface..August 2 at 12:56am Like

Niraj Pandya Point no-2 -It is not mostly or commonly followed - It is to be decided by application
engineer of process keeping factor in mind - do you need Rough hole of tube sheet or smooth hole? ,
Rough hole of tube sheet will provide you more strength at lower expansion of tube to withstand high
pressure and mainly temperature smooth hole will provide you leak proof joint at lower pressure with
higher expansion .-Now what is your application do you need high pressure joint or low pressure joint
?at what temperature ? on that basis we creating hole roughness by providing Grooves and Deciding
the Type of expansion.August 2 at 8:27am Like

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Purav DesaiStatic Equipment Group
Heat Exchanger Expanded tube to tubesheet Joint: Location of Groove within Tubesheet

ASME (mechanical) Code Issues - Double groove expanded tube to tubesheet joint
www.eng-tips.com
Add Stickiness To Your Site By Linking To This Professionally Managed Technical Forum.Just copy and
paste the code below into your site.

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Like Share July 22 at 10:39am


Hemant Solanki Purav, Can you just brief out conclusions from these posts.15 hours ago Like

Purav Desai As I mentioned in this post subject, technical experts were discussing regarding
placement of grove within tubesheet thk. The point seems concluding from their discussion was ti
locate groove at the side which is more corrosive.14 hours ago via mobile Like

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hemant Solanki
Change in Subparagraph Breakdowns/Nested Lists Hierarchy in Latest BPVC
2013 codes

There have been structural and stylistic changes to BPVC, starting with the
2011 Addenda, that should be noted to aid navigating the contents. The
following is an overview of the changes:

Subparagraph Breakdowns/Nested Lists Hierarchy will be now as follows


* First-level breakdowns are designated as (a), (b), (c), etc., as in the past.
* Second-level breakdowns are designated as (1), (2), (3), etc., as in the past.
* Third-level breakdowns are now designated as (-a), (-b), (-c), etc.
* Fourth-level breakdowns are now designated as (-1), (-2), (-3), etc.
* Fifth-level breakdowns are now designated as (+a), (+b), (+c), etc.
* Sixth-level breakdowns are now designated as (+1), (+2), etc.
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Mitul Patel
UHX-9.5 Tubesheet Flanged Extension thickness:

Dear group members,

For tube sheet sandwiched between flanges Compress programme calculates


tube sheet extension thickness hr (UHX-9.5) only for hydro test condition not
for design conditions.

Justification is that in normal operation extended portion does not carry any
bolt load because it is sandwiched & not acting as flange. Is it correct?

Further to this for application involving collar bolts (which is nowadays


common practise also recommended by many clients and API 660) is it required
to calculate hr for design conditions also? Because in this case collar will be
transferring load to tube sheet.

Please share your views.


Like Unfollow Post Share August 12 at 1:51pm via mobile

Hemant Solanki Let us Consider Configuration d (Tubesheet Gasketed With Shell and Channel) and
Configuration b (Tubesheet Integral With Shell and Gasketed With Channel, Extended as a Flange)

If bolt load is applied in both configurations it is required to calculate extended portion thickness as per
UHX-9.5 (a). it considers bolting effect on head thickness due to bending as considered in flat head
design as per UG-34.
If bolt load is not applied specially in case of Configuration d (it will not be a case in Configuration b),
then hr shall be calculated as per UHX-9.5( c). which calculates hr based on differential pressure acting
due to shell and channel side pressure.

I think compress is misinterpreting UHX-9.4. as testing will be carried out with one chamber at a time.
Thats why ASME has specially putted it to consider its effect while evaluating hr. it doesnt mean that
we should ignore other design conditions while evaluating hr. in both configuration extended portion
will serve the purpose of bearing testing pressure as well as bolting loads during testing condition.

I remember in one of my project vendor did the same by ignoring other design conditions in compress
while evaluating hr. we have asked them to perform. And in next revision they submitted hr calculation
in all design conditions including testing condition by some setting change done in compress. In my
recent project for Configuration b, vendor has performed hr calculation in all design conditions with
compress. Pvelite is taking care by calculating hr for operating and seating conditions in all proposed
load cases entered by user.August 12 at 5:36pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar I think for extended tubesheet gasketed on both sides....if there are no
collar bolts then it is not required to calculate the hr ...as after flange assebly the flanges are not in
contact with ectended portion of tubeshheet ..all bolt load is taken by the end of flanges only.....no

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need to check for bending...but when collar bolts are there then the bolt load is transferred to
exttended portin of tubesheet..so in that case it is required....for tubesheet fixed with shell...where bolt
load is taken.by. extented tubesheet...hr value to be calculated for all load cases...August 12 at
8:00pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Rohitash, You are talking about Configuration d. even though collar bolts are not
there but if we sandwich extended portion in between both flanges than that portion also need to be
check under bolting loads. as it will act as whole assembly with end flanges.
If in Configuration d extended portion is not there than same hr can be calculated as per UHX-9.5( c)
as now bolt loads will not get transfer on tubesheet.August 12 at 8:06pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Yes it is complete assembly but as per my understanding..the bolt load is
not transferred to extended pirtion of tubesheet...as there is gap between the flange and extended
portion of tubesheet...the bolts are only pass through the extended portion....all bolt loads taken by the
back portion of both flanges through nuts....the extended portion is subjected to bolt liad only during
hydtotest condition for d type of configuration.....August 12 at 9:38pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai I agree with Rohitash Panwar. It also needs to check when we use tapped holes in
tubesheet. Normally flange as well as tubesheet bolt holes are not tapped so bolt load will not get
transferred to extended portion of tubesheet and there will always be sone gap between flange and
tubesheet due to gasket. I think compress is doing calculation in correct way.August 13 at
8:05am via mobile Like

Patel Sajit In TEMA INQUIRY : Same question was asked and TEMA reply is as belowAugust 13 at
3:10pm Edited Like

Patel Sajit Question : Is it required to calculate, for operating conditions, the thickness of the flanged
extension of a tubesheet in a U-tube heat exchanger where the flanged extension is sandwiched
between the tubeside and shellside flanges?...August 13 at 3:08pm Like

Patel Sajit Answer:No, however it is recognized that if the tubesheet is supplied with a flanged
extension, it is expected that the tubesheet will be subjected to an overturning moment by being bolted
to either the tubeside flange alone or the shellside flange alone in a test situation. Therefore, the
thickness of the flanged extension should be calculated using Pb for the test conditions.August 13 at
3:09pm Like 2

Tejas Shah
What is the main difference between WRC 107 & WRC 297 and which is more
strigent ?

Commonly WRC 107 use for nozzle on dish end and WRC 297 fr nozzles on shell
but in COMPRESS CODEWARE there is no option fr WRC 297,, so use WRC 107.
and accordingly client comment to use WRC 297 fr nozzles on shell .
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Sunil Sharma wrc 297 was introduced later for the nozzles on the cylindrical shells. wrc 107 is now
used only for nozzles on heads only. Actly wrc 297 is more stringent than its counterpart 107.August
14 at 9:27pm Like 2

Bikas Paikray The main differences between WRC 107 and WRC 297 are that WRC 297 can be used
only for cylindrical shells, not spherical shells, and only with a round hollow attachment. Although WRC
297 is limited for those applications, WRC 297 design rules allow stress calculations for thinner wall
shells than WRC 107, such as thin walled vessels and tanks. Both WRC 107 and 297 have certain limits
of shell diameter vs. attachment diameter, and wall thickness limitations. Basicaly WRC 297 is more
stringent than WRC 107..August 14 at 11:02pm via mobile Like

Viral Patel In compress, wrc 297 can be done. There is a facility to perform FEA along with that, u will
find option for wrc 297..August 15 at 1:19am via mobile Like 1

Simran Singh Also WRC 107 does not calculate stress in nozzle wall whereas 297 calculates for both
at nozzle shell junction.August 15 at 10:51am Like 1

Selva Raj
Hi,

Thanks for accepting my request.

I came across this problem in vessel nozzle design.

Most client specifications stating that vessel MAWP shall not be limited by
nozzle reinforcement. Somehow it is difficult to avoid this in vessels
particularly if the shell or head having good margin on required thickness and
there is space restriction to increase the nozzle reinforcement.

Instead of increasing the reinforcement,is there any valid points that the
reinforcement can govern the MAWP of the vessel so that we can convince the
Client.

Thanks.
Like Follow Post Share August 15 at 6:05pm via mobile

Mihir Jha This is a common problem. You can reduce the MAWP and make head to be governing by
reducing the minimum after forming thickness.August 15 at 6:58pm via mobile Like 1

Selva Raj Yes we can reduce the head min thickness after forming. But in this case if u reduce the
head min thickness, Nozzle reinforcement on head not adequate.

Tried could not make anything except reinforcement govern the MAWP. Wt reason should
reinforcement not govern the MAWP if vessel?..August 15 at 7:07pm via mobile Like

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Mihir Jha The client put this clause to know the MAWP for future rerating or change in process
condition. And in future they dont want to govern the MAWP by minor components like pad which shall
be costly to replace.
In present situation, increase the pad thickness to 1.5 times head thickness. If still the pad govern,
then SR nozzle to be provided else raise a concession request against this clause.August 15 at
7:45pm via mobile Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Auto Refrigeration

It is Defined as the temperature that the contents of the vessel would reach if the vessel
is depressured to 40% of its MAWP
If the temperature of auto refrigeration is less than 20_F, then the vessel should be
treated as subject to auto refrigeration and this used as a design basis to avoid brittle
fracture Should be considered when selecting steels In some liquid services, such as LPG,
a leak could do the following:
-Reduce the pressure
-Cause a drop in temperature
-Cause the liquid to boil off

Steel selection for pressure vessels subject to autorefrigeration


Vessels subject to auto refrigeration require additional considerations:
1. Steels from Code Figure UCS-66, curve D should be used; typically, carbon steel plate
should be normalized SA 516; forgings may be SA 350, grade LF 2, and pipe may be SA
333, Grades 1 or 6; these steels have good inherent toughness
2. Impact testing is not required for auto refrigeration, unless already required at the
normal design temperature; SA 350 and SA 333 materials are, however, impact tested in
accordance with their respective specifications
Auto refrigeration is not considered equivalent to a cold design or operating temperature
because of the lowered pressure; therefore, the recommended safeguards against brittle
fracture are not as stringent as for a cold operating temperature; the use of SA 516 steel,
and equivalent forging and piping grades, should by itself provide ample resistance to
brittle fracture during auto refrigeration
Impact testing is not required for auto refrigeration, unless it is required for a cold design
temperature without considering auto refrigeration.
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Hemant Solanki
Methods for checking flange leakage

Introduction:
Leakage is a function of the relative stiffnesses of the flange, gasket and
bolting.
Flanges are designed to remain leakfree under hydrostatic test pressure
when cold and under operating pressure when hot.
The design of flanges (ASME B 16.5) does not take into account the
bending moment in the pipe. This generates wire drawing effect on the
mating surface of the flange. Hence, additional flexibility is to be provided
when a flange joint is located near a point of high bending moment. So,
Leakage checking is required.
Process Piping Flanges are designed in accordance with BPV code, Section
VIII, Division 1, appendix 2, using allowable stress and temperature limits of
ASME B 31.3.
Analysis Criteria:

The criteria regarding when flange leakage checking is required should be


mentioned in the ITB documents or project specs. But as a general practice
the following can be used:
Flanges with rating 600 or more
Flanges with rating 300 and size greater than 24 inch
Pipe flanges carrying caterogy M fluid service
Pipe flanges carrying Hydrogen or other flammable fluid
PSV lines with NPS 6 inch or more
Flanges in Jacketed Piping
Flanges where stress engineer finds a very high bending moment
Analysis Methodology:

Two widely used methods are practised in prevalent Process Industry. These
are
1. Pressure Equivalent method based on ASME B 16.5 pressure temperature
table and
2. ASME BPVC Sec VIII Div 1 Appendix 2 method.

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Pressure Equivalent Method:

In this method the axial force (F) and bending moment (M) on the flange is
converted into equivalent pressure (Pe) using following equations.
Equivalent Pressure for Axial force, Pe1=4F/G^2
Equivalent Pressure for bending moment, Pe2=16M/G^3
Here G=diameter at location of gasket load reaction =(Gasket OD+ID)/2
when bo<=6 mm
=(Gasket OD-2b) when bo>6 mm.
Here bo=basic gasket seating width as given in table 2-5.2 reproduced
below:
Process Piping Flanges are designed in accordance with BPV code, Section
VIII, Division 1, appendix 2, using allowable stress and temperature limits of
ASME B 31.3.
ASME BPVC Sec VIII Div 1 Appendix 2 method:

In this method flange stresses (longitudinal hub stress, radial flange stress
and tangential flange stress) are calculated based on code provided
equations/formulas. These calculated stresses are then compared with
allowable stresses as given in BPVC code Sec VIII Div 1 Appendix 2, Clause
2-8.

For calculating flange stresses one need to calculate the flange moment
which is dependent on bolt load. Bolt load has to be calculated for two design
conditions; operating & gasket seating, and the most severe will govern. For
more details of the equations and calculation methodology the above
mentioned code can be referred.

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Hemant Solanki
WRC 107 and WRC 297

Introduction:

Whenever Pressure Vessel or Heat exchanger (Static Equipment) nozzle loads


exceeds the allowable values provided by Vendors (Equipment manufacturer)
or standard project specific tables (guidelines), the engineer is permitted to
use WRC 107/297 (or any other FEA) to check the stresses at the Nozzle-
Shell junction point and check the stresses with allowable values provided by
Codes. If the stresses are found to be within allowable limit then the load and
moment values can be accepted without any hesitation. However there are
some boundary conditions which must be met before using WRC. This small
write up will try to explain the required details for performing WRC 107 and
WRc 297 using Caesar II and step by step method for performing WRC
check..

Both deal with "local" stress states in the vicinity of an attachment to a vessel
or pipe. As indicated by their titles, WRC-107 can be used for attachments to
both spherical and cylindrical shells while WRC-297 only addresses cylinder to
cylinder connections. While both bulletins are used for nozzle connection.
WRC-107 is based on un-penetrated shell, while WRC-297 assumes a circular
opening in vessel. Furthermore, WRC-107 defines values for solid and hollow
attachments of either round and rectangular shape for spherical shells but
drops the solid/hollow distinction for attachments to cylindrical shells. WRC-
297, on the other hand, is intended only for cylindrical nozzles attached to
cylindrical shells.

Boundary condition for using WRC 107:

To determine whether WRC 107 bulletin can be used for local stress checking
the following geometry guidelines must be met:

1. d/D<0.33 (Here, d=Nozzle diameter, D=Vessel outer diameter)


2. Dm/T=(D-T)/T>50 (Here, T=Vessel Thickness, Dm=mean diameter of

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vessel)

Boundary condition for using WRC 297:

To determine whether WRC 107 bulletin can be used for local stress checking
the following geometry guidelines must be met:

1. d/D<=0.5
2. d/t>=20 and d/t<=100 (Here t=nozzle thickness)
3. D/T>=20 and D/T<=2500
4. d/T>=5
5. Nozzle must be isolated (it may y not be close to a discontinuity) - not
within 2(DT) on vessel
and not within 2(dt) on nozzle

Difference between WRC 107 and 297:

The major differences other than the boundary conditions mentioned above
are listed below:

1. WRC 107 calculates only the vessel stresses while WRC 297 calculates
Vessel stresses along with nozzle stresses.

2. WRC 297 is applicable only for normally (perpendicular) intersecting two


cylindrical shells whereas WRC 107 is applicable for cylindrical as well as
spherical shells of any intersection.

3. The attachments for WRC 297 checking must be hollow but WRC 107
analyzes cylindrical or rectangular attachments which can be rigid or hollow.

4. WRC 297 is not applicable for nozzles protruding inside the vessel (Fig 1),
Tangential Nozzle (Fig2), Nozzle at angle (Fig 3).
5. Typically, WRC-107 is used for local stress calculations and WRC-297 is
used for flexibility calculations.

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Limitations of WRC:
Other than boundary conditions mentioned above there are few more
limitations as mentioned below:

1. Neither bulletin considers shell reinforcement nor do they address stress


due to pressure.

2. CAESAR II and PVElite & CodeCalc will not extrapolate data from the
charts when geometric limitations mentioned above are exceeded.
Extrapolated data may not be appropriate.

Inputs required for performing WRC checking:

The following documents must be ready with you before you start to perform
WRC 107/297 checking:
1. Equipment Details/ General Arrangement drawing
2. Nozzle details
3. Line list.

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Hemant Solanki
Basics of Gaskets for leak proof Flanged joints

Gasket is one of the basic elements for flanged joints in piping system of
process plants. A gasket can be defined as a material or combination of
materials clamped between two separable mechanical members of a
mechanical joint (flanged joint) which produces the weakest link of the joint.
Gaskets are used to create a static seal between two stationary members of a
mechanical assembly (the flanged joint). The gasket material flows (interpose
a semi-plastic material between the flange facings) into the imperfections
between the mating surfaces by an external force (bolt tightening force) and
maintain a tight seal (seals the minute surface irregularities to prevent
leakage of the fluid) under operating conditions. The amount of flow (seal) of
the gasket material that is required to produce a tight seal is dependent upon
the roughness of the surface. The gasket must be able to maintain this seal
under all the operating conditions of the system including extreme upsets of
temperature and pressure. Therefore, it is important to ensure proper design
and selection of the gaskets to prevent flange-leakage problems and avoid
costly shutdowns of the process plants. The following article will try to
explain the main points related to gaskets.

Working philosophy of a gasket to prevent leakage:

Refer the above figure which shows the three major forces acting on the
gasket. Normally the gasket is seated by tightening the bolts on the flanges
before the application of the internal pressure. Upon the application of the
internal pressure in the joint, an end force (Hydrostatic end force) tends to
separate the flanges and to decrease the unit stress (Residual stress) on the
gasket. Leakage will occur under pressure if the hydrostatic end force is
sufficiently great and the difference between hydrostatic end force and the
bolt-load reduces the gasket load below a critical value. To explain it in more
clear language we can say that there are three principal forces acting on any
gasketed joint. They are:
Bolt Load which applies the initial compressive load that flows the gasket
material into surface imperfections to form a seal.

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The hydrostatic end force, that tends to separate flanges when the system
is pressurized.
Internal pressure acting on the portion of the gasket exposed to internal
pressure, tending to blow the gasket out of the joint and/or to bypass the
gasket under operating conditions.

Even though there are other shock forces that may be created due to sudden
changes in temperature and pressure. Creep relaxation is another factor that
may come into the picture. The initial compression force applied to a joint
must serve several purposes.
It must be sufficient to initially seat the gasket and flow the gasket into the
imperfections on the gasket seating surfaces regardless of operating
conditions.
Initial compression force must be great enough to compensate for the total
hydrostatic end force that would be present during operating conditions.
It must be sufficient to maintain a residual load on the gasket/flange
interface.

Now from a practical standpoint, residual load on the gasket must be "X"
times internal pressure if a tight joint is required to be maintained. This
unknown quantity "X" is what is known as the "m" factor in the ASME
Pressure Vessel Code and will vary depending upon the type of gasket being
used. Actually the "m" value is the ratio of residual unit stress (bolt load
minus hydrostatic end force) on gasket to internal pressure of the system.
The larger the number used for "m", the more assurance the designer has of
obtaining a tight joint.

Gasket Types:
Gaskets can be grouped into three main categories as follows:
Non-metallic Gaskets: Usually composite sheet materials are used with flat
face flanges and low pressure class applications. Non-metallic gaskets are
manufactured non-asbestos material or Compressed Asbestos Fibre (CAF).
Non-asbestos types include arimid fibre, glass fibre, elastomer, Teflon (PTFE)
and flexible graphite gaskets. Full face gasket types are suitable for use with
flat-face (FF) flanges and flat-ring gasket types are suitable for use with

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raised face (RF) flanges.


Semi-metallic Gaskets: Semi-metallic gaskets are composites of metal and
non-metallic materials. The metal is intended to offer the strength and
resiliency while the non-metallic portion of a gasket provides conformability
and sealability. Commonly used semi-metallic gaskets are spiral wound, metal
jacketed, Cam profile and a variety of metal-reinforced graphite gaskets.
Semi metallic gaskets are designed for the widest range of operating
conditions of temperature and pressure. Semi-metallic gaskets are used on
raised face, male-and female and tongue and groove flanges.
Metallic Gaskets: Metallic gaskets are fabricated from one or a combination
of metal to the desired shape and size. Common metallic gaskets are ring-
joint gaskets and lens rings. They are suitable for high-pressure and
temperature applications and require high bolt load to seal.
Common gasket configurations:

Aside from the choice of gasket material, the configuration or structure of the
gasket is also significant. Following are descriptions of four major types.
Graphite foil: The physical and chemical properties of graphite foil make it
suitable as a sealing material for relatively arduous operating condition. In an
oxidizing environment, graphite foil can be used in the temperature range of
-200 to +500C, and in a reducing atmosphere, it can be used at
temperatures between -200 and 2,000C. Because graphite foil has no binder
materials, it has excellent chemical resistance, and is not affected by most of
the commercially used common chemicals. It also has very good stress-
relaxation properties.
Spiral-wound: As the name implies, the spiral-wound gasket is made by
winding a preformed-metal strip and a filler on the periphery of a metal
winding mandrel. All spiral-wound gaskets are furnished with a centering
ring. In addition to controlling compression, these rings serve to locate the
gasket centrally within the bolt circle. Inner rings are used where the material
(such as a gasket with PTFE filler) has a tendency for inward buckling. The
ring also prevents the buildup of solids between the inside diameter of the
gasket and the bore of pipe. Under vacuum condition, the ring protects
against damage that would occur if a pieces of a broken component were
drawn into the the system. Spiral-wound gaskets can operate at

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temperatures from -250 to 1,000C, and pressures from vacuum to 350 bar.
Spiral-wound gaskets up to 1-in. diameter and up to class number 600
require a uniform bolt stress of 25,000 psi to compress the gasket. Larger
sizes and classes require 30,000 psi to compress the gasket.
Ring-joint: Ring-joint gaskets are commonly used in grooved flanges for
high-pressure-piping systems and vessels. Their applicable pressure range is
from 1,000 to 15,000 psi. These gaskets are designed to give very high
gasket pressure with moderate bolt load. These joints are not generally
pressure-actuated. The hardness must be less than that of the flange
material so that proper flow of material occurs without damaging flange
surfaces. The most widely used ring-joint gaskets are of the oval and
octagonal type. Oval-type gaskets contact the flange face at the curved
surface and provide a highly reliable seal. However, the curved shape makes
it more difficult to achieve accurate dimensioning and surface finishing. Oval
gaskets also have the disadvantage that they can only be used once, so they
may not be the best choice for sealing flanges that have to be opened
routinely. On the other hand, because they are constructed of only straight
faces, octagonal-type gaskets are usually less expensive, they can be
dimensioned more accurately, and are easier to surface finish than the oval-
type gasket. However, a greater torque load is required to flow the gasket
material into imperfections that may reside on the flange faces. Octagonal
gaskets can be used more than once.
Corrugated-metal: This type of gasket is available in a wide range of
metals, including brass, copper, coppernickel alloys, steel, monel, and
aluminium. Corrugated metal gaskets can be manufactured to just about any
shape and size required. The thickness of the metal is normally 0.25 or 0.3
mm, with corrugations having a pitch of 1.6, 3.2, and 6.4 mm. The sealing
mechanism is based on point contact between the peaks of the corrugations
and the mating flanges
Gasket Standards:

Following standards are normally adopted for specifying gaskets.


ASME B16.21 Non-metallic flat gaskets for pipe flanges.
ASME B16.20 Metallic Gaskets for steel pipe flanges, Ring Joint, Spiral
Wound and Jacketed

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IS2712 Specification for compressed Asbestos fibre jointing.


BS 3381 Sprial Wound Gaskets to suit BS 1560 Flanges
Selection of Gaskets:
The gasket material selected should be one which is not adversely affected
physically or chemically by the service conditions.
The two types of gaskets most commonly known are ring gaskets and full
face gaskets. The latter as the name implies, covers the entire flange face
and are pierced by the bolt holes. They are intended for use with flat face
flanges. Ring gaskets extend to the inside of the flange bolt holes and
consequently are self centering. They are usually used with raised face or lap
joint flanges but may also be used with flat-faced flanges.
Flat-ring gaskets are widely used wherever service condition permits
because of the ease with which they may be cut from flat sheet and installed.
They are commonly fabricated from such materials as rubber, paper, cloth,
asbestos, plastics, copper, lead, aluminum, nickel, monel, and soft iron. The
gaskets are usually made in thickness from 1/64 to 1/8 in. Paper, cloth and
rubber gaskets are not recommended for use above 120 C. Asbestos-
composition gaskets may be used up to 350 C or slightly higher, ferrous and
nickel-alloy metal gaskets may be used up to the maximum temperature
rating of the flanges.
Upon initial compression a gasket will flow both axially and radially. The
axial flow is required to fill depressions in the flange facing and prevent
leakage. Radial flow serves no useful purpose unless the gasket is confined.
Where a flange joint is heated, a greater gasket pressure is produced due to
the difference between the flange body and the bolts. This greater pressure
coupled with the usual softening of the gasket material at elevated
temperatures causes additional axial and radial gasket flow. To compensate
for this, the flange bolts are usually re-tightened a second or third time after
the joint is heated to the normal operating temperature. A thick gasket will
flow radially to a far greater extent than a thin gasket.. Some thin gaskets
show practically no radial flow at extremely high unit pressures.
Consequently, for high temperatures a thin gasket has the advantage of
maintaining a permanent thickness while a thick gasket will continue to flow
radially and may leak, in time, due to the resulting reduced gasket pressure.
However in attempting utmost utilization of thin gasket advantage, one may

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find that gasket selected has insufficient thickness to seal the irregularities, in
the commercial flange faces. The spiral wound asbestos-metallic gasket
combines the advantages of both the thick and thin gasket. Although a
relatively thick gasket (most common types are 0.175" thick) its spirally
laminated construction confines the asbestos filler between axially flexible
metal layers. This eliminates the radial flow characteristics of a thick gasket
and provides the resiliency to adjust to vary service conditions. Spiral wound
gaskets are available with different filler materials such as Teflon, grafoil etc.
to suit fluid compatibility. Spiral wound gaskets used with raised face flanges
usually have an inner metal ring and an outer centering ring.
Laminated gaskets are fabricated with a metal jacket and a soft filler,
usually of asbestos. Such gaskets can be used up to temperatures of about
400 C to 450 C and require less bolt load to seat and keep tight than solid
metal flat ring gaskets.
Serrated metal gaskets are fabricated of solid metal and have concentric
grooves machined into the faces. This greatly reduces the contact area on
initially tightening thereby reducing the bolt load. As the gasket is deformed,
the contact surface area increases. Serrated gaskets are useful where soft
gaskets or laminated gaskets are unsatisfactory and bolt load is excessive
with a flat-ring metal gasket. Smooth-finished flange faces should be used
with serrated gaskets.
Corrugated gaskets with asbestos filling are similar to laminated gaskets
except that the surface is rigid with concentric rings as with the case of
serrated gaskets. Corrugated gaskets require less seating force than
laminated or serrated gaskets and are extensively used in low-pressure liquid
and gas service. Corrugated metal gaskets without asbestos may be used to
higher temperature than those with asbestos filling.
Two standard types of ring-joint gaskets are available for high-pressure
service. One type has an oval cross section, and the other has an octagonal
cross section. These rings are fabricated of solid metal, usually soft iron, soft
steel, monel, 4-6% chrome, and stainless steels. The alloy-steel rings should
be heat treated to soften them.
It is recommended that ring joint gasket be used for class 150 flanged
joints. When the ring joint or spiral wound gasket is selected, it is
recommended that line flanges be of the welding neck type.

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Parameters affecting Gasket performance:

The performance of the gasket is affected by a number of factors. All of


these factors must be taken into consideration when selecting a gasket:
The Flange Load: All gasket materials must have sufficient flange pressure
to compress the gasket enough to insure that a tight, unbroken seal occurs.
The flange pressure, or minimum seating stress, necessary to accomplish this
is known as the "y" factor. This flange pressure must be applied uniformly
across the entire seating area to achieve perfect sealing. However, in actual
service, the distribution around the gasket is not uniform. The greatest force
is exerted on the area directly surrounding the bolts.. The lowest force occurs
mid-way between two bolts. This factor must be taken into account by the
flange designer.
The Internal Pressure: In service, as soon as pressure is applied to the
vessel, the initial gasket compression is reduced by the internal pressure
acting against the gasket (blowout pressure) and the flanges (hydrostatic end
force). To account for this, an additional preload must be placed on the
gasket material. An "m" or maintenance factor has been established by ASME
to account for this preload. The "m" factor defines how many times the
residual load (original load minus the internal pressure) must exceed the
internal pressure. In this calculation, the normal pressure and the test
pressure should be taken into account.
Temperature: The effects of both ambient and process temperature on the
gasket material, the flanges and the bolts must be taken into account. These
effects include bolt elongation, creep relaxation of the gasket material or
thermal degradation. This can result in a reduction of the flange load. The
higher he operating temperature, the more care needs to be taken with the
asket material selection. As the system is pressurized and heated, the joint
deforms. Different coefficients of expansion between the bolts, the flanges
and the pipe can result in forces which can affect the gasket. The relative
stiffness of the bolted joint determines whether there is a net gain or loss in
the bolt load. Generally, flexible joints lose bolt load.
Fluid: The media being sealed, usually a liquid or a gas with a gas being
harder to seal than a liquid. The effect of temperature on many fluids causes
them to become more aggressive. Therefore, a fluid that can be sealed at

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ambient temperature, may adversely affect the gasket at a higher


temperature. The gasket material must be resistant to corrosive attack from
the fluid. It should chemically resist the system fluid to prevent serious
impairment of its physical properties.
Surface Finish of the Gasket: The surface finish of a gasket - which consists
of grooves or channels pressed or machined onto the outer surface - governs
the thickness and compressibility required by the gasket material to form a
physical barrier in the clearance gap between the flanges. A finish that is too
fine or shallow is undesirable, especially on hard gasket materials, because
the smooth surface may lack the required grip, which will allow extrusion to
occur. On the other hand, a finish that is too deep will yield a gasket that
requires a higher bolt load, which may make it difficult to form a tight seal,
especially when large flange surfaces are involved. Fine machining marks
applied to the flange face, tangent to the direction of applied fluid pressure
can also be helpful. Flange faces with non-slip grooves that are
approximately 0.125 mm deep are recommended for gaskets more than 0.5
mm thick; and for thinner gaskets, grooves 0.065 mm deep are
recommended. Under no circumstances should the flange-sealing surface be
machined with tool marks extending radially across the gasket-sealing
surface; such marks could allow leakage.
Gasket Thickness: For a given material, it is a general rule that a thinner
gasket is able to handle a higher compressive stresses than thicker one.
However, thinner materials require a higher surface finish quality. As a rule of
thumb, the gasket should be at least four times thicker than the maximum
surface roughness of the flange faces. The gasket must be thick enough to
occupy the shape of the flange faces and still compress under the bolt load.
In situations where vibration is unavoidable, a thicker gasket than the
minimum required should be employed.
Gasket Width: In order to reduce the bolt load required to produce a
particular gasket pressure, it is advisable not to have the gasket wider than is
necessary. For a given gasket stress, a raised face flange with a narrow
gasket will require less pre-load, and thus less flange strength than a full-face
gasket. In general, high-pressure gaskets tend to be narrow.
Stress Relaxation: This factor is a measure of the material's resiliency over a
period of time, and is normally expressed as a percentage loss per unit of

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time. All gasket material will lose some resiliency over time, due to the flow
or thinning of the material caused by the applied pressure. After some initial
relaxation, the residual stress should remain constant for the gasket.
Gasket Outer Diameter: For two gaskets made of the same material and
having the same width, the one with a larger outer diameter will withstand a
higher pressure. Therefore, it is advisable to use a gasket with an external
diameter that is as large as possible.

Like Unfollow Post August 21 at 10:33am

Kiran Gawade and Vijay Kumar like this.

Hemant Solanki
Basic Instrumentation Symbol

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Hemant Solanki
Kettles or thermosiphons do not superheat at all. Why ?

Vaporizers: produce dry vapor for regenerators, etc.


It contains Large disengaging spaces and Special take-off nozzles to ensure
dry vapour.
Vaporizers allow a small amount of superheat.
Kettles or thermosiphons do not superheat at all.
WHY?
Can anybody explain its reason.
Process people view will be highly appreciated.

Like Unfollow Post August 19 at 1:53pm via Email

Nirav Desai In kettle type vaporizer, the u-tube bundle is always submerged in liquid and the vapor
generated is continuously sent to the column. As there is no heat transfer area available in vapor
phase, no super-heating might be expected..August 26 at 8:53pm Edited Like

Nirav Desai In thermosyphon type vaporizer, as the flow through the tube or shell is based on the
difference in density of the liquids between the vessel and the exchanger, the liquid is filled to
maximum heat transfer areaAugust 26 at 9:10pm Like

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Hemant Solanki
RF Pad in Lethal service

RF Pad in Lethal service - Courtesy - Linkdin Group

Dear All,

I went through a specification of ONGC in which it was written that


Reinfocement Pads for Nozzle to Shell is not allowed when service is Lethal or
under -16 deg C.I could't get the reason for this,can anyone shed some light
on this...........
Moreover is there any clause given in ASME SEC VIII 1 if yes ,where?

Thanks & Regards,


Rajeev Khantwal

You, Navin
Kothari<http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMemberFeed&gid=122787&me
mberID=182154015&goback=.gde_122787_member_266520825> like this

3 comments

LynUnfollow
<http://www.linkedin.com/groupfollowing?unfollow&followee=50285510&csrf
Token=ajax%3A8183627751280467705&goback=.gde_122787_member_26
6520825&trk=ufp_l> Follow
Lyn<http://www.linkedin.com/groupfollowing?follow&followee=50285510&csrf
Token=ajax%3A8183627751280467705&goback=.gde_122787_member_26
6520825&trk=fwp_l>

Lyn
Evans<http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMemberFeed&gid=122787&me
mberID=50285510> * Obviously there is more potential for failures & hidden
leaks when you have a welded configuration like a repad, as opposed to
integrally reinforced one piece nozzles to self-reinforced heavier-wall shell

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sections or insert-plates. Have to revert on the ASME requirement as not at


hand right now but I'm sure someone will clarify if it is mandatory case for
ASME VIII, Div.1. If it is so specific in ONGC spec then it may not be
prohibited in ASME VIII, Div.1 but sounds like wise design engineering.

C.V.Srinivasan Chakravarthi
Srinivasan<http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMemberFeed&gid=122787&
memberID=55912090> * Rajeev Aug 18
ASME Sec VIII Div 1 UG 41 & Fig UG 40 is applicable reference for
reinforcement additions for pressure vessel opening/ nozzle openings.

Vessel to nozzle or pad to nozzle attachment weld metal shall have a stress
value equal to that of the vessel wall or pad respectively - subject to UG 40
(a) or when the RF Pad strength under tension -as defined in UG 37 - shall be
better than UG-40 (d) (1).

Off hand : I do not remember to give a straight answer whether any


restriction is given as interpretation in ASME Sec VIII Div 1 by users for lethal
service.

I remember ASME Sec VIII Div 1 an interpretation given under 78-10 R (13)
on a specific question and answer reply by ASME board. Contents i am not
able to recollect. To my mind, ASME board did not have put any restrictions
specifically mentioning lethal service or for sub zero temperature conditions
of operations.

RF Pad welds when subjected to sub zero - 16 deg cent as given by ONGC
spec.. and if impact test requirement is not specified for RF plates - during
manufacture qualification or test stages of inspection not mentioned or
agreed upon between purchaser and vendor - is subject to NDT (Nil Ductility
Transition) and may develop cracks in lethal service if left undetected.

ONGC as user might have taken this factor into consideration in specifying
that Nozzle RF Pad plate additions under sub zero and also under lethal
service conditions without clarifying to vendor on why such specification was

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given.

For your info: RF pad welds with full penetration welds as in Fig UG 40 if
tested properly during construction stages and manufacturing third party
inspection - as agreed upon between purchaser and vendor /third party
inspection companies - and tested with modern UT Flaw detection techniques
with impact value at sub zero temp test exceeding the values - there should
not be restriction for use for such RF Pad welds in lethal and sub zero test
temperature usage.

There is nothing that precludes use of material with full penetration welds for
RF Pad addition properly tested by Non Destructive techniques selected for
such testing of welds .

Lethal service or sub zero test temperature (Nil Ductility Transition


temperature) is answered fully if that care is taken during manufacture and
stage wise inspection of RF pad to nozzle to pad welds. ONGC spec. may be
specifying - as a purchase specification - this as additional precaution for
vendor to adopt during manufacturing.

This does not mean a full penetration weld, properly evaluated / tested
during nozzle to RF pad additions- both plate impact values at sub zero
impact values and good penetration weld at both inside and outside properly
tested well will have any problem in both lethal and sub zero temperature
conditions.

Chakravarthi V Srinivasan India Aug 18 2013

Rajeev
Khantwal<http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMemberFeed&gid=122787&
memberID=57179928> * Thanks Mr Srinivasan for such a good explanation
on this topic.............

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Like Unfollow Post August 26 at 6:19pm via Email

Vijay Kumar likes this.

Tushar Mangrati As u know that RF pad is attached to a nozzle & shell by fillet weld & more over
we are providing tell tale holes for pneumatic testing for removing weld gas etc. In RF pad
construction there is more probability of process fluid to have contact with inside of RF pad &
Hence indirectly there is a chance of process fluid to release in atmosphere. Hence it is very risky
for providing RF pad in lethal service where if any process fluid escape to air , may lead to serious
& harmul effect to property & human life . Hence We have to perform 100 % radiography for this
D category weld joint by providing lip type construction as per figure UW 16.1 (f1 to f4). In lip
type construction , we can do radiography easily due to its butt-welded construction between
nozze to shell..August 26 at 11:10pm Like 1

Tejas Shah
What's the purpose of using of using collar bolt for heat exchanger ?
I understand it hold the gasket in its condition ,,, but not sure ,
Like Unfollow Post August 4 at 1:48pm via mobile

Mitesh Rana Purpose is to facilitate the removal of the channel for inspection and maintenance
without disturbing the tubesheet to shell gasket seating.August 4 at 2:42pm Like 1

Hemant Solanki Most of the specs calls for some percentage of total number of bolts to be collar
bolts. It facilitates removal and handling of exchanger. main purpose of providing collar bolts is to
maintain bolt load at shell side flange while removing channel by loosening channel side flange.
Because for only channel side removal if we loosen non collar bolts than it is required to replace
shell side gasket also even though there is no need to loose shell side.
Also Note that on extended tubesheet slot for collar should be on channel side so that after
channel flange removal tubesheet shall get remain in contact with shell side flange and gasket as
still shell side flange nuts doesn't loosened yet.August 19 at 10:12am Edited Like 1

Hemant Nikam Refer below PIP Standard VEFV 1126 for the collar bolt arrangement.
*************************************************** Purpose:- a) Collars bolts are used
for removable bundle heat exchangers, to holding the bundle in place, if only the channel must be
removed. b) It is Preferable in Bonnet type channel & removable tube c)In other cases its Client's
special requirement to avoid gaskets replacement in every routine inspection /maintenance/Hydro
test ***************************************************** The number of collar studs
for exchanger diameters up to 600 diameter shall be four, up to 1200 diameter shall be eight and
above 1200 diameter twelve. The collar studs shall be designed so that the bolted joint complie
with all TEMA and 'Stoomwezen' (ASME) rules for pressure vessels requirements.

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August 31 at 2:55am Edited Like 1

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
What is the thumb rule with respect to temperature difference between shell and tube in fixed
tubesheet exchanger where no bellows are required.
I know only a exact analysis can given perfect result, but asking only for a general thumb rule
Like Follow Post August 31 at 12:01am

Manoj Nandwalkar likes this.

Purav Desai its hard to fix the rule of thumb to fix the requirement of expansion joint for fixed tubesheet exchanger because it
depends on material of shell and tube. Also now a days ASME UHX has employed various methods increasing tubesheet
thickness, increasing adjacent shell/channel thickness etc. to avoid need of expansion joint.August 31 at 9:38am Like 1

Jayesh Rathod i had this question from very beginning when i started doing heat exchangers in my early days..based on
feedback from various vendors, engineers following is the commonly used guidelines -
Difference in mean metal temp of shell side & tube side -
1) CS material - 50 deg C
2) SS material - 35 deg C.August 31 at 10:07am via mobile Like 4

Mrudang Mehta thanks Jayesh... very useful thumb ruleAugust 31 at 10:38am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @ jayesh what bout cs shell and ss tube any guess !....August 31 at 9:51pm Like

Hemant Solanki
Support plate mostly provided if vibration problem is anticipated in
exchanger.
At the END of U-tube bundles. A full diameter support plate is used. WHY ? Is
vibration issue occurs in u tube bundle? Or any additional reason?
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Prafful Chaudhary likes this.

Purav Desai Hi Hemant, not only vibration at U bend results in addition of U bend support plate, if
unsupported span exceeds the allowable then we need to provide support plate. For large
diameter exchangers, sometimes we have to provide support plate within U bend. Hope it helps.

September 1 at 7:53am Like 1

Purav Desai In most cases, U bend is not considered as a part of heat transfer and so nozzle is
located before U bend which results in less vibration and flow at U bend, However when nozzle is
located after U bend, chances are there for U bend vibration.September 1 at 7:55am Like 1

Mrudang Mehta Just to add.. In my current project.. Instead of Y bend support, 3 nos of strip type
support are provided.. But that is due to vibration at u bendsSeptember 1 at
10:34am via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
Equipment with large openings. Any advantage of designing the nozzle to
shell junction for nozzle loads with FEA with respect to analytical methods like
WRC or BSS 5500 appendix G. My feel the material savings should be
minimal or nominal but high analysis cost. Any feedback. @ Purav
Like Follow Post August 31 at 12:05am

Purav Desai Hi Mahadevan Venkiteswaran, As per my knowledge we only used FEA to analyze large
opening when it falls outside range of analytical methods like WRC/PD 5500. It is not preferred to
extrapolate the factors plotted on the graphs, it may give wrong results. Hence for such cases FEA
is preferred. Initial savings in capital cost can sometimes leads to very very high repair
cost.August 31 at 9:05am Edited Like

Purav Desai Also due to this now many consultancies / design companies are developing FEA
capability so that they can use their skilled manpower to do such analysis on FEA..August 31 at
9:06am Like 1

Anish Dani Compress has inbuilt facility (added on by FE Nozzle) which can do the FEA of Nozzles
while designing the pressure vessel.August 31 at 10:48am Like

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Senthil Anbazhagan Hi Mahadevan Venkiteswaran , FEA will give the right solution for this pbm.
Going with WRC or BSS may not give solution. Also note that since it is coming under large
opening category you may asked to get a FEA report for third party approval.August 31 at
11:33am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Ya agreed FEA not first but second optionAugust 31 at 1:49pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Ok so to conclude when this exceeds the geometry condition of WRC
then FEA is the only solution. I guess FEA is not the solution to begin with.September 1 at
12:48pm Like

Jayesh Rathod
Hello,
Currently I am handling a Waste Gas Treatment Pkg comprising of
Incinerator Unit , Burner Mgt System, Blowers, Waste Heat Boiler-Water tube
type, Stack.
1) Incinerator is a horizontal unit & refractory lined. It is supported on 3
saddles.
I believe each saddle shall be designed for atleast half the load of the
operating weight instead of 1/3rd ?
2) Does anyone has good reference material on Water tube type boiler ?
Like Follow Post August 31 at 10:18am near Bukit Merah Estate, Singapore

Manish Shukla Ans to 1) For multiple saddle supports, use continuous beam solution via moment
distribution method.August 31 at 10:47pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Jayesh - For multi saddle analysis Ad Markblat (not the right spelling-it
is a German standard) S3/2 is one standard which addresses it.September 1 at 12:51pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
A buried horizontal vessel back filled with soil. What is the best type of support. Saddle or lugs
mounted on its periphery which mounts on concrete piers
Like Follow Post August 31 at 12:02am

Purav Desai likes this.

Jayesh Rathod i thnk saddle supports are always better for better load distribution...lug supports would induce local stresses on
the shell at 4 points.August 31 at 9:17am via mobile Like

Purav Desai I have not designed buried vessels but always seen it supported on Lugs and with Concrete piers extended to
support shell bottom half (similar to saddle). I understand it gives better resistance to uplift. Also when equipment is buried,
there will be a huge load of sand and vessel weight coming on supports and in such condition, I believe concrete foundation is
better than saddle supports.August 31 at 9:31am Edited Like

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Jayesh Rathod if concrete pier is shaped to support shell bottom then it's better...however i have seen many burried bullets on
saddlesAugust 31 at 9:36am via mobile Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Jayesh bhai! There is also a operation issue. If the vessel is backfilled with soil opening the lift for
any maintenance issue is a issue with saddleAugust 31 at 10:26am Like

Jayesh Rathod yes thats true...workers have to dig more....well that was a good point..would be of use to me if i come across
buried vessels in future......August 31 at 10:31am via mobile Like

Ajit Managoli Drom my exp, saddles are most common. Lugs, as suggested may be provided. Perhaps foundation design will be
better with saddles.September 2 at 12:05am via mobile Like

Ajit Managoli From my exp, saddles are most common. Lugs, as suggested may be providedSeptember 2 at
12:06am via mobile Like 1

Vinod Puransingh Khati Hello everyone, jus a thought.. Can we go for concrete saddle.. No welding and all jus for resting the
bulletSeptember 2 at 7:30am via mobile Like

Ajit Managoli It is possible. Only it is quite difficult to cast the concrete to correct shape, so that the vessel will bear uniformly.
Perhaps there are other difficulties as well..September 4 at 7:51am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
Tubesheet Calculation as per Div.2

Is anybody has studied tubesheet calculation in Div.2 ?


Is method same as UHX in Div.1 ?
As per reply from Coadae , It is same as UHX in Div.1 with allowable stresses
as per Div.2.
Please discuss.
Like Unfollow Post September 4 at 4:41pm via Email

Hemant Solanki Paragraph 4.18 in Div.2 covers tubesheet calculation. it is identical to Part UHX in
Div.1. only allowable stresses of Div.2 is used. Pvelite doing the same..a few seconds
ago Edited Like

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Hemant Solanki
Tie rods tapping on tubesheet

The tie rods are circular metal rods screwed into the stationary tubesheet and
extending the length of the bundle up to the last baffle.
Does anybody came across case where this tie rods tapping provided on
floating end tubesheet instead of stationary tubesheet ? Is any specific
reason to provide such arrangement ?
I saw one case where for vertical floating head exchanger (P type) tie rods
tapping is provided on floating end tubesheet instead of stationary tubesheet.
I didn't noticed any significant reason in that exchanger to provide such an
arrangement.
Please share your views.

Like Unfollow Post September 5 at 3:29pm via Email

Karthikeyan Sivakumar likes this.

Rohitash Singh Panwar Tie rod should be screwd to stationary tubesheet and last baffle or support
plate only because if the tie rod is screwed to fliating tubeshhet then it restrict the movement of
floating tubesheet and the purpose of selection of floating head will not serve....as per my
understanding tie rod dhould not be scrwed to floating tubesheetSeptember 5 at
4:03pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai The reason mentioned by sachin pawar seems adequate.

However its also to be noted that baffles and spacer pipes doesnot contribute significant weight.
So even if tierods are tapped on stationary tubesheet it is not going to affect much as we use solid
tie rods.

Moreover we always tack weld nuts at the end of tie rod which will serve as a lock.

Certainly the requirement can be followed as good engg practice.

Rohitash Panwar I think u mis read the req. We either tap tie rods to stationary tubesheet of
floating tubesheet, Tubes always remains free to expand.September 5 at
4:28pm via mobile Like 1

Purav Desai Reason by sachin pawar


" The only reason I see is with this arrangement, baffles and spacers wont be hanging on tie-rods.
Meaning tie-rod wont go under tension."..September 5 at 4:34pm via mobile Like

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Hemant Solanki Tie rod mounting will never restrict expansion and contraction of tube bundle
assembly. Because tie rods are connected to tubesheet and get terminated at last baffle or support
plate. while tubes are connected at both end of tubesheet. so tie rods can never restrict tubes
expansion as whole.
Now consider vertical exchanger with floating tubesheet at top. here if i give tapping at top end
tubesheet then tie rod assembly will get hanged up from top. and there is chance that tie rods will
remain in tension. as per me it is better to keep tie rods in compression by providing tapping at
bottom tubesheet. and it is also not clear that whether exactly such loadings transffered on tie rod
assembly or not. also stationary end (here in this case bottom tubesheet) will provide rigid support
to tie rods as compared to other end. so even there is any compressive loads will be there that will
also not be a much problem.
If there is very big size vertical exchanger e.g. VCFE then we can think on this issue but still as per
me it will be only prediction. in practice it will not matter much by providing tapping at stationary
endSeptember 5 at 9:26pm Like

Hemant Nikam First my question what about the sliding ,sealing strips ,seal rods are available if yes
where it to be fixed ? ************************************** Tie rods are always to be
fixed at only one Tubesheet it may stationary or Floating.(In Vertical Fixed tubesheet type tierods
generally fixed at top side tube sheet) **************************** But In case of Floating
head type hex. if Tie rods are fixed at floating tubesheet ,During removal of tube bundle whole
load of floating tubesheet and tubes upto the first baffle (Stationary side) will be fall on the
peripheral tubes near the inner face of stationary tubesheet (If bundle will lifted improper
horizontal plane at stationary end) and peripheral tubes may pinched during removal of bundle,it
will be more effective when the sealing rods,sealing strips sliding strips also fixed same as tie rods
So as per my understanding tie rods ,sealrods,sealing strips,sliding strips,always be fixed with
stationary tubesheet in both horizontal as well as vertical type to avoid the damage of tubes at
stationary tubesheet during removal of bundle from shell. If sealing ,sliding strips,seal rods are
fixed at stationary tubesheet and tierods are at floating it also no meaning for the allowing
expansion of tubesSeptember 6 at 3:34am Edited Like

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Mrudang Mehta
Hello friends.. I have a query related to Shell and Tube heat exchanger
design.

In my current project, client is asking to check the design of girth flange


bolting considering the transfer of channel nozzle loads and its induced
moment due to the nozzle loads.

What is explained by them is if there are very high nozzle loads on Tubeside,
the same will be transferred to girth flange bolting. This design client donot
want to check with nearest shell nozzle loads.

My queries are:

1. Has anybody carried out such type if design. If yes, please explain concept
and methodology.

2. I understand the channel inlet and outlet nozzle loads will balance each
other so such loads are not transferred to girth flange. Is my understanding
correct.?
Like Follow Post September 4 at 3:41am near Seputeh, Wilayah Persekutuan, Malaysia

Purav Desai and Pankaj Singla like this.

Purav Desai 1. No.


2. Yes. And for excessive nozzle loads we can design nozzle reinforcement to absorb it.September
4 at 4:42am via mobile Like

Ajit Managoli 1. Personally, I hv not done. The radial force & moments on the nozzles are to be
transferred on to girth flg. Method is given in Moss.
2. Since the length of the channel is quite small, & due to the presence of girth flg welded to its
edge, the channel shell is quite stiff. The effect of loads, in such case, will not remain "local". See
Appendix of WRC107 for some discussion reg effect of length of the shell on local
loads..September 4 at 7:43am via mobile Like

Mitul Patel 1.Concept is called equivalent pressure method.

What it does is to convert local load and moment into equivalent pressure and this pressure is
added in design pressure.

There is input in pvelite girth flange module for axial load and moment.

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Piping group also does such analysis for some special flanges which need special consideration due
to higher local loads.

2.Its typically done for vertical reboilers where in axial load can separate flange joint.

In case of nozzle both sides I think effect will be null.September 4 at 8:08am via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar In one of our project..client has commented to appky the nozzle load in
girth flange design for vertical reboiler....client is SHELL and we had perform the analysis as per
Deniss R MossSeptember 4 at 5:06pm via mobile Like

Sunil Sharma There will be two cases for such requirements.


(1). Radial nozzle for cylindrical shell - for this case the longitudinal load acting on the nozzle will
be directly transferred as Force on the hub of the girth flange. The moment on the hub will be the
resultant of the moment arising from ML and MC of the nozzle loads acting at a distance "x" from
the hub of the flange.
(2) Axial nozzle - for axial nozzle on dished heads - the axial load on nozzle will be directly
transferred as force on the hub. The moment on the hub will be resultant of the moment arising
from the ML and Mc acting at the junction of the nozzle at a distance "x" from the girth flange
hub.September 4 at 6:51pm Like

Mrudang Mehta Thanks Sunil,Rohitash,Mitul,Ajit and Purav. This was something very new for me
and your response helped to understand the design requirements.September 4 at 7:15pm Like

Mrudang Mehta @ Sunil Sharma - How do we transfer the axial load of nozzle on the hub ? Do we
have to make the pressure equivalent of the force and add to design pressure on
tubeside.September 4 at 7:21pm Like

Avedhesh Gupta Before concluding on the second query raised by Mrudung, kindly check the actual
nozzle loads if possible. It is not necessary that Nozzles are located 180 apart would nullify nozzle
loads of each other. The better way would be to evaluate thru FEA. To me it is perfect time to
refer all such issue to FEA expert rather than continuing with age old good engineering practices
which may be calling for unnecessary over design.September 4 at 8:15pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran I guess I also work for a project for the same client. Waiting for a
wonderful solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...September 5 at 10:58pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Can any one tell why this transfer of loads to channel flange is required
for a horizontal exchanger. I understand for vertical exchangers it makes sense.September 8 at
10:20am Like

Mrudang Mehta Mahadevan Venkiteswaran - We had asked the same query to the the client
personnel who had raised this issue. The problem is as this is not mentioned in Client Specification
and even code doesnot cover this requrement, vendor is asking for change order. What was
explained was that if there are heavy nozzle loads, the shell side nozzle loads are transferred to
the saddle but for channel nozzle loads, they get transferred to channel shell and than to girth
flange. Hope this helpsSeptember 8 at 10:47am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Mrudang, have you thought of the following: Say a U tube exchanger or
a multipass exchanger where the inlet and outlet are on the opposite sides of the channel. In this

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case actually the forces get nullified if both the nozzle sizes are same. So in such a case no load
transferred to the channel flange. Try that and if it worked give a feed backSeptember 9 at
9:38pm Like

Mrudang Mehta Mahadevan - All the HX in my current project are either BEU or BFU type. That is
exactly what we had understanding and so put the same query as point 2. I understand point 2 in
my question was not very clear.September 10 at 2:42am via mobile Like

Madhusudhan Shetty After understanding the above query, what i feel is even though nozzles
(in/out) are placed on two extreme ends, effects of nozzle loads needs to be considered at the
girth flg joint since there will be a torsional / rotational effect on the channel girth flange while the
shell girth flange remaining static, hence there tends to be gap generated between the flanges and
gasket sealing is lost and subsequently chances of leak from the girth flange joints.September 10
at 11:42pm Like 1

Kewal Kareliya pls ask client weather they hads any past problem faced realted to nozzle load
getting trasnfer to girth flg..becos based on that only client must have put ds cluase in his
specification I have not read yr reply deeply just had glance n ds question arised in my mind so
posting...September 11 at 8:52pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
Tubesheet Calculation as per Div.2

Is anybody has studied tubesheet calculation in Div.2 ?


Is method same as UHX in Div.1 ?
As per reply from Coadae , It is same as UHX in Div.1 with allowable stresses
as per Div.2
Please discuss.

Like Unfollow Post September 4 at 4:41pm via Email

Hemant Solanki Paragraph 4.18 in Div.2 covers tubesheet calculation. it is identical to Part UHX in
Div.1. only allowable stresses of Div.2 is used. Pvelite doing the sameSeptember 13 at
8:44pm Edited Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Discuss 10/13 Rule applicable in heat exchanger. its application and
significance. Process people views will be more appreciated if they throw
more light on process parameter and its application on exchanger.
Like Unfollow Post August 16 at 8:20pm

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Purav Desai 10/13 rule is followed for most heat exchangers as per API 521. However for high
pressure heat exchangers, a comparison study shall be done between providing a PRV at low
pressure side or increasing low pressure side pressure as per 10/13 rule.

High pressure exchanger specially used as bfw preheaters in syngas circuit of hydrogen plants
has been evaluated for such options.September 15 at 7:35pm via mobile Like

Patel Sajit 10/13 rule or 2/3 rule is applied to avoid Tube Rupture & when PSV is not provided
in heat exchanges. Same is taken care by Process.September 15 at 8:54pm Like 3

Patel Sajit Two-third (2/3) rule :


Earlier revision of ASME required that equipment and piping be tested at 150% of stated
design pressure. If the equipment design pressure
is 15 barg, then the test pressure must be 22.5
barg, thus 15/22.5 = 2/3. API RP 521 (1997 edition)
stated that if the design pressure of the lowpressure
side (LPS) is at least 2/3 of the design
pressure of the high pressure side (HPS), tube
rupture is not considered a credible relieving
scenario..September 16 at 8:49pm Edited Like 3

Patel Sajit Ten-thirteen (10/13) rule :


In latest ASME, it stated that the test pressure of equipment to be 130% of the design
pressure. If the equipment design pressure is 15 barg, then the test pressure shall be
19.5 barg, thus 15/19.5 = 10/13. Similarly follow API RP 521 (1997 edition) statement, if
the design pressure of the low-pressure side (LPS) is at least 10/13 of the design
pressure of the high pressure side (HPS), tube rupture is not considered a credible
relieving scenario.September 16 at 8:49pm Edited Like 3

Patel Sajit But if the vessel is designed to AS (Australia), GB (China), etc which both
standards still call for equipment test pressure to be 150% of equipment design pressure
with stress correction, then two-third (2/3) rule still applied.September 15 at 8:56pm Like 3

Patel Sajit But saudi aramco standard ask to satisfy both 2/3 rule & 10/13 rule.September 15 at
8:57pm Edited Like 2

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran
Can some one share (if possible) the steps or excel sheet used to size the
nozzle size for shell and tube heat exchanger. Like after HTRI how does one
arrive at one inlet or two outlet or how they reach the no. of outlet nozzles in
a BKU type!!!!!!
Like Follow Post September 11 at 7:40pm

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Kewal Kareliya ya pls if any one can share anything related...September 11 at


8:09pm via mobile Like

Kewal Kareliya ya pls if any one can share anything related...September 11 at


8:10pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai I dont have any spread sheet. However can share my understanding for this post.

For exchangers other than kettle type no of nozzles on shell side ivs governed by type of shell
used I.e. E, J, X etc. Sometimes where there is two phase flow for example vacu condensers
additional drain is considered. Size of nozzle will be determined considering rho-v2 values and
pressure drop limitations.

For kettle exchanger shell side outlet nozzles are determined considering qty of generate
vapour. Also sonetimes wheb shell length is large multiple nozzles are considered instead of
single large size nozzle.September 12 at 3:26pm via mobile Like 1

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @ Purav, thanks I got the message. Adding another query. What if
the exchanger is a welded F shell. What is so critical and what precautions to take. Further for
AES type there is a support plate at the end near the floating head. What is the percent
opening to be maintained in that support plate. What is the purpose of the opening in the
support plateSeptember 14 at 11:39pm Like

Purav Desai For Welded F type exchanger, we already discussed here. Refer below
post. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php...

Photos from Purav Desai's post in Static Equipment Group

Welded in lobgitudinal baffle.

By: Purav Desai.September 15 at 8:54am Like 1 Remove Preview

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Purav Desai Also refer below post for welded F type


exchangers.https://www.facebook.com/.../permalink/553550708012958/

Static Equipment Group

Dear Friends, I would like to know fabrication sequence of NFU type exchanger. ...See
More.September 15 at 9:16am Edited Like Remove Preview

Purav Desai For support plate opening to be provided in "S" type floating head, it is required to
maintain flow of shell side fluid at the back side of support plate. As per TEMA we can either
provide partial or Full support plate. General guideline is opening shall be provided so that
atleast 50% of the tubes are supported by support plate.September 15 at 9:19am Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran @Purav thanks for the sketch. It gives clarity. Because whenever I
hear about welded F shell there is a lot of correspondence being transacted. Your sketch
makes it simple and clearSeptember 15 at 11:09pm Like

Nirav Desai
If I have length and diameter constraint and I want to increase area of the
shell and tube exchanger, how much i could reduce my tube pitch for
introducing more tubes??

P.S. I have welded tube to tube sheet joint.


Like Follow Post September 18 at 6:51pm

Purav Desai Hi Nirav,

As per tema minimun tube pitch shall be 1.25 times tube OD. A qualified vendor can able to
produce welded tube to tubesheet joint with this pitch. So if length and diameter are
constraints then you can select minimum tube diameter suitable to tube side fluid. With
smaller tubes and minimum tube pitch, more no of tubes can be accommodated.September
18 at 8:42pm via mobile Like 3

Nirav Desai Well i have considered reduction of tube diameter but it is not possible because i
have fouling material in both tube n shell side , which restricts me.September 18 at
8:55pm Edited Like

Nirav Desai if i dont consider TEMA , is it possible. But i need calculations for that, to back me
up..September 18 at 8:47pm Like

Ranaprio Sarkar UHX may solve your problem.September 18 at 10:16pm Like 1

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Rohitash Singh Panwar If mechanical cleaning is required then minimum 6.4 mm to be maintain
between the tubes...September 18 at 11:07pm Like 1

Purav Desai As I mentioned earlier, if fabricator can perform tube to tubesheet joint welding
with narrow gap meeting all requirements for the welded joint, it should be fine.

However for fouling service on tubeside certain minimum velocity has to be maintained to
avoid fouling of small bore tubes. Additionally regular back flushing shall also be done. This
will sure help to mitigate foulingYesterday at 4:45am via mobile Like 1

Hemant Nikam If you are going to increase no of tubes by selecting lower dai .tube size, kindly
check your Project specification for the minimum tube dia. condition. If no option change the
exchanger type.3 hours ago Like

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Hemant Solanki
Heat Exchanger:
Corrosion & Failure

Metal Erosion:

Fluid velocity in excess of the manufacturer recommendation on either the shell or tube
side of the heat exchanger will likely cause erosion damage as metal wears from the
tubing surfaces. If any corrosion is already present on the exchanger, the erosion is
accelerated, exposing the underlying metal to further attack without a protective coating.
A metal erosion problem most often occurs inside the tubes, along the U bend and near
the tube entrances. Figure (A) is an example of metal loss in a section of U bend caused
by extremely high-temperature water flashing over to steam.

Figure A. Metal Erosion in a U-bend tube section.

Likewise, tube entrance areas often experience severe metal loss when a high-velocity
fluid divides among the smaller tubes upon entering the heat exchanger. When a single
stream divides into smaller streams, turbulence results with a very high localized velocity.
It is this high velocity and turbulence that produces a horseshoe erosion pattern at the
tube entrance.
The maximum recommended tube and entrance velocity is a function of many variables,
including the material of the tube, fluid involved, and temperature. Materials including
steel, stainless steel, as well as copper-nickel typically withstand much higher tube
velocities than standard copper alone. A pure copper tube is normally limited to less than
8 FPS; other materials can handle upwards of 10 or 11 FPS. If the fluid contains
suspended solids or for example, softwater, the velocity should be less than 7 FPS. Less
typical is erosion problems on the shell side of the tubes; typically erosion in this area is a
result of impingement of wet, high-velocity gases, including steam. To mitigate this, wet
gas impingement is controlled by designing an oversized nozzle inlet nozzles, or baffling
the inlet nozzle.
Steam or Water Hammer:

Pressure spikes, surges or shock waves as a result of a sudden and rapid acceleration or
deceleration of any liquid can cause damaging steam or water hammer to the exchanger.
Pressure surges have been seen in levels in excess of 20,000 psi, which would result in
the complete rupture or collapse of the tubing of a heat exchanger. As an example, drawn
copper 3/4 in. x 20 BWG tubing typically has a rated burst pressure of 2100 psi, along
with a collapse pressure of 600 psi.
Pressure surges can be a result of an interruption in cooling water flow, stagnant water
heated with a resulting generation of steam, or a resumption of flow producing steam. All
these processes would likely cause a pressure surge, steam or water hammer. Therefore,
the flow of the cooling fluid should always start prior to adding the heat load.

Figure B. Tube Damage From Steam Hammer.


Control valves that open or close suddenly to control fluid flow can produce water
hammer. A modulating control valve is a preferable option to on-off types. A vacuum

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breaker vents are a must if the process involves a fluid that can or may condense on
either the shell or tube side. Vacuum breakers prevent steam hammer from developing
and causing damage as a result of condensate accumulation. Figure (B) is an example of
typical tube damage caused by steam hammer. In the example provided, condensate
accumulated in the shell rapidly, producing a high pressure shock wave that subsquantly
collapsed the tubes and caused multiple tear holes. Correctly sized steam traps with
installed return lines pitched to a receiving container for condensate or a condensate
return pump should be installed as to prevent such damage.
Vibration:

Excess environmental vibration from equipment including air compressors, refrigeration


machines or other motors can cause tube failures that form as a result of fatigue stress ---
--s and or erosion where the tubes make contact with the baffles. Ideally, heat exchangers
should be isolated from all forms of vibration.

Fluid velocities that exceed 4 FPS could cause vibration induced damage in the tubes,
often causing baffle supports to cut into the tubes (Figure C). Velocity-induced vibrations
may also cause fatigue failures by hardening the tubes at the contact points between
baffles or in U-Bend segments, eventually leading to -----s and splits.

Figure C. Velocity-induced vibration along a tube.


Thermal Fatigue:

Tubes, predominantly in the U-bend sections, can fail as a result of fatigue from
accumulated stresses related to constant thermal cycling. This problem is significantly
aggravated as the temperature difference across the U-bends increase.

Figure D. Thermal Fatigue Failure in U-bend segment.


Figure D is an example of typical thermal fatigue. Temperature differences caused tube
flexing, which subsequently produced a stress load that, until the materials tensile
strength was exceeded and therefore -----ed. The resulting ----- most commonly runs in
radials around the tube, and may result in a complete failure.
Thermal Expansion:

Thermal expansion failures are commonly found in exchangers involving exchangers;


however, they may occur in most any process in which a fluid being heated is turned off
without a provision for absorbing the subsequent thermal expansion.

In systems that involve steam heating, the cool down or condensing of residual steam on
the shell side after the steam control valve closes will continue to heat water or other such
fluids on the tube side. A resulting heat load with nowhere to go will cause thermal
expansion, creating pressure well in excess of the tube, tube sheet, cast head, and
component strength. Cast heads made from iron will fail due to lack of ductility; steel tube
sheets will bow or become distorted permanently because the material yield point is
exceeded. Figure (E) is an example of thermal expansion and failure of a cast iron head.

Figure E. Thermal expansion failure of cast iron exchanger head.

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Relief valves are often installed in the fluid being heated to prevent a failure of this sort.
Manufactures commonly install and or advise for a means to absorb fluid expansion.
Freeze-up:

A freeze failure is most commonly found in condensers or evaporators; however they can
occur in any process where a temperature drop below the freezing point of a given fluid
exists. Typical freeze-ups are a result of the operator failing to provide thermal protection
from the elements, improper drainage during a seasonal shutdown, malfunction of a
thermal protection system or heater, or inadequate antifreeze solutions.

As an example, lets assume a chiller has been improperly set or its controls are
malfunctioning allowing water to cool below the freezing point. As ice crystals form, they
exert tremendous pressure in the tubing, causing it to rupture and or collapse. Figure (F)
is an evaporator, with a tube near the tube sheet where it was inadequately protected.

Figure F. Callapse of evaporator tube.


Freeze-up failures in a condenser application may also occur when cooling water is
circulating inside the tubes and refrigerant on the finned surfaces was not aquatically
drained for winter shutdown. Refrigerant pressure from the condenser is suddenly
released as a result of a line break or relief valve discharge dropping the pressure below
the refrigerant boiling point. The boiling process then extracts heat from the water in the
tubes causing a freeze up.

Read more: http://www.egpet.net/vb/content/518-Heat-Exchanger-Corrosion-


Failure#ixzz2jOyGa500
Like Unfollow Post Share July 28, 2011 at 8:28pm

Manish Shukla Good Info...July 29, 2011 at 8:18am Like

Purav Desai
Dear members,
I have a doubt regarding low alloy steel material
what is the difference between SA 387 GR 11 CL 1 & CL 2?
Like Unfollow Post Share July 29, 2011 at 6:12pm via mobile
Vijay Chaudhary likes this.

Hemant Solanki Chemical composition is same. Only stress values are differ. Cl.2 material have
stresses lower than Cl.1. Please check in Sec-IID. It may be vice versa.July 30, 2011 at 7:41pm Like

Purav Desai class 2 have higher stress values than class 1. Class 1 is costlier than class 2. Almost all
Specification recommend to use class 1 above 450 deg. C.Class 1 availability in market is also
less.July 30, 2011 at 7:59pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai sunil told me that there is difference in heat treatment carried out in mill for both the
class and that is why yield and tensile strength values variesJuly 30, 2011 at 8:04pm via mobile Like

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Hemant Solanki check with LTC material group. one article i have read on this. with class 1 thickness
will be increased due to lower stress. But it is always better to ask vendor if temperature is more than
450 degree centigrade whether he is ok with cl.1 material due availability & cost impact.July 30, 2011
at 8:06pm Like

Hemant Solanki what is a gasket? According to Wikipedia, a gasket is a mechanical seal that fills
the space between two objects, generally to prevent leakage between the two objects while under
compression.

Other definitions/descriptions of gasket:

"A flexible material used to seal components together; either air-tight or water-tight"
(PartSelect.com).

"Any of a wide variety of seals or packings used between matched machine parts or around pipe
joints to prevent the escape of a gas or fluid" (Staffgasket.com).

Gaskets are commonly produced by cutting from sheet materials, such as gasket paper, rubber,
silicone, metal, felt, fiberglass, or a plastic polymer.

Gaskets save money by allowing less precise mating surfaces on machine parts which can use a
gasket to fill irregularities. Gaskets are commonly produced by cutting from sheet materials, such
as gasket paper, rubber, silicone, metal, cork, felt, fiberglass, or a plastic polymer (such as
polychlorotrifluoroethylene). Gaskets for specific applications may contain asbestos. It is usually
desirable that the gasket be made from a material that is to some degree compressible such that it
tightly fills the space it is designed for, including any slight irregularities.

Gasket is very important in a process plant. It maintains the energy, temperature and pressure in
a process system. Selecting a suitable gasket is a must because it does cost money. It is also
directly related to the process temperature, pressure, type of medium (fluid or gas) and the
chemical properties of the medium.

Another new knowledge that I learned is about spiral wound gasket that can withstand pressure
up to 70-80 bar. It is a very interesting and carefully manufactured gasket made of stainless steel.
However, I shall elaborate more about this in another post because it is deserve its own post!

OK, let me just explain about the simple/normal gasket. With reference to the left illustration, the
gasket is sandwiched between flanges. The property of the gasket and correct
compression/tightness allows the process system to maintains it pressure and would not allow oil
or gas to leak.

The above illustration shows how a gasket is positioned and locked between those 4 bolts.

Another illustration shows how a gasket is positioned and locked between those 8 bolts.

We install/fix the correct type of gasket before connecting the pipeline with flanges.

The above photo is a very interesting one. It shows the condition of gasket after being used for
some time. It is difficult to remove the gasket by bare hands because the gasket sticks very well.
We need to use suitable tools to peel and remove the gasket from the flanges. Usually, flanges like

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this is opened during shutdown to clean/clear pipelines or vessels. After inspection, a new fresh
gasket will be used. Never use a gasket twice.

Without a gasket, a 12" butterfly valve like this will leak and spill oil or water and spray gas or
steam (depending on your application).

Gasket is not only used between flanges. It is widely used everywhere in a process plant and in
our kitchen (the refrigerator). In a plant, gasket can be found in the heat exchanger, valves, vessel
man holes etc. The gasket needs to be properly maintained to ensure no upsets in the plant.ets in
the plant.

Hemant Solanki
Hydrogen Damage

Corrosion of carbon and low-alloy steels by aqueous hydrogen sulfide solution or sour
waters can result in one or more types of hydrogen damage. These include loss of ductility
on slow application of strain (hydrogen embrittlement), formation of blisters or internal
voids (hydrogen blistering), and spontaneous Cracking of high-strength or high-hardness
steels (hydrogen stress crac*king). Atomic hydrogen (H) forms as part of the corrosion
process and then evolves from cathodic areas of the metal as molecular hydrogen (H2). As
the concentration of atomic hydrogen builds up at the surface it diffuses into the steel and
reduces its ductility this embrittling effect is caused by hydrogen atoms collecting between
metal atoms.

1-Hydrogen embrittlement: is characterized by decreasing ductility with decreasing strain


rate. For example, the ductility of carbon steel has been reported to drop from 42 to 7%
when charged with hydrogen. Failure in the form of Cracking usually occurs some time
after a load is applied to hydrogen-charged steel. Because this phenomenon is also known
as static fatigue, the minimum load for failure to occur is known as the static fatigue limit.
Hydrogen embrittlement is temporary and can be reversed by heating the steel to drive
out the hydrogen.

2-Hydrogen blistering: has been a problem primarily in the vapor recovery (Light ends)
section of catalytic Cracking units and, to. Lesser degree in the low-temperature areas of
the reactor section of hydrotreating and hydraCracking units. Hydrogen blistering often
accompanies hydrogen embrittlement as a result of aqueous sulfide corrosion. As rule, the
severity of hydrogen blistering depends on the severity of corrosion. Vapor/liquid interface
areas in equipment often show most of the damage, probably because ammonia,
hydrogen sulfide, and hydrogen cyanide concentrate in the thin water films or in water
droplets that collect at these areas. The basic approach toward reducing corrosion and
hydrogen blistering in the various vapor-compression stages of catalytic Cracking units
should be aimed at decreasing the concentration of cyanide and bisulfide ions in water
condensate. Several methods for accomplishing this have been used :
1- Conversion of cyanide to harmless thiocyanate (SCN) by injection of air or poly-sulfide.

2- Water washing of the compressed wet gas streams, in conjunction with corrosion
inhibitor injection. Water washing reduces the concentration of cyanides; Corrosion
Inhibitors help control aqueous sulfide corrosion and hydrogen blistering even though

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cyanides may still be present.


3- Where limited hydrogen blistering occurs in certain components of hydrotreating and
hydro Cracking units, it is usually sufficient to Line affected areas with stainless steel or
alloy 440 (N04400).

3-Hydrogen Stress Cracking: Sour water containing hydrogen sulfide can cause
spontaneous Cracking of highly stressed high-strength steel components or in carbon steel
components containing hard welds. Cracking is typically transgranular and will contain
sulfide corrosion products. Cracking of this type has become known as hydrogen stress
Cracking or sulfide cracking. Hydrogen stress Cracking occurs in the same corrosive
environments that lead to hydrogen embrittlementandas is in the case of hydrogen
embrittlement and hydrogen blistering; hydrogen stress Cracking of steel in refineries and
petrochemical plants often requires the presence of cyanides.The most effective way of
preventing hydrogen stress Cracking is to ensure that the steel is in the proper
metallurgical condition also postweld heat treatment of fabricated equipment will greatly
reduce the occurrence of hydrogen stress crac*king.

Hydrogen Attack
The term hydrogen Attack or in more specifically, high-temperature hydrogen attack refers

Read more: http://www.egpet.net/vb/threads/48868-Corrosion-in-Petroleum-Refining-


and-Petrochemical-Operations#ixzz1VxTfxZKI

Hemant Solanki
Gasket selection chart

Chetan Patel
Dear all, can anybody tell me that for 350 bar design pressure can i use ALloy 625 spiral
wound gasket. As per me it should be grooved metal gasket. Whatsyouropinin. Please

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share.
Also please tell me for 10000 PSI what should be Gasket type ?
Like Unfollow Post Share October 26, 2011 at 11:36pm

Hemant Solanki Physical properties are important factors when considering gasket design and the
primary selection of a gasket type is based on the following:
Temperature of the media to be contained
Pressure of the media to be contained
Corrosive nature of the application
Criticality of the application

Chetan, in your case


Design pressure is 350 bar so I think flange rating will be more than 900#. in that case RTJ type flange
with RTJ gasket is preferable. IF RTJ flange is not there than you can go for SW gasket.
Now selection of gasket material is depends upon the corrosive service in which gasket will be used.
FYI, Alloy 625 (Incoloy) material is preferable to use in a wide range of acid, neutral and alkaline
environments.
So for type of gasket you decide based on pressure & temperature & select material according to the
environment in which this gasket going to be installed.

Let me know if your query has been answered or not.

November 9, 2011 at 5:48pm Like

Chetan Patel Hemant, imoci had selected based on service ,but want to know that sw will work for
this pressure. as per me it should be grooved metal gasket. whatsur view?

November 10, 2011 at 5:24pm Like

Hemant Solanki Chetan first of all find out what is the flange rating for this equipment. If your flange
rating is greater than 600# & it is intended for RTJ then your flange will be RTJ flange where ring type
gasket will be the only option.
Now Camprofile or "Grooved" gaskets have proven themselves in all industrial applications.Camprofile
gaskets consist of a metal core (generally Stainless Steel) with concentric grooves on either side with
sealing materials. The sealing layers (depending on the service duty) can be Graphite, PTFE (Teflon),
CAF or Metal (e.g. Aluminium or Silver). Camprofile's can be used without sealing layers to provide an
excellent seal but there is a risk of flange surface damage - especially at high seating loads. The sealing
layers protect the flange surfaces from damage in addition to providing an effective seal. But still this
issue is under discussion whether camprofile is better or SW gasket is better. But definitely your flange
face should be flat face in order to select camprofile or SW gasket.November 10, 2011 at
6:35pm Like 1

Purav Desai to add further for high pressure service as mentinned above connectors are used instead
of conventional flanged joint. Visit website of grayloc connectors for further detail.November 12, 2011
at 1:21pm via mobile Like

Mrudang Mehta hi dear.... what I have experienced is the selection of gasket is vbery much
dependent on the client... for your design condition... RTJ is the most suitable and economically viable
option.. but it is not so that SPED cannot be used... but usually it is avoided... if the vendor has the
experience and none of the specification rules out the use of SPWD... can go ahead of the
same...November 12, 2011 at 2:16pm Like

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Purav Desai
hi friends.

At many places i have studied that;

Crack developes along the rolling direction of the steel Why?


Like Unfollow Post Share September 13, 2011 at 9:30am via mobile

Pramod Dixit Because there are HARD NUT impurities who do not flow transverse to rolling direction.

September 13, 2011 at 12:24pm Like

NiketanMahadik The defect came from steel making process where some inclusions metallic or non
metallic even porosity, when through to rolling they will be reduced in dimension and flattened and
make the layer which is no fusion to others. When we apply welding or grinding they will be visible like
crack in rolling direction.

September 13, 2011 at 7:19pm Like

Purav Desai I think thats the reason steels in corrosive service (h2s, hic) are made by vacuum furnac
thru vacuum Degassing process. This proces helps to reduce non metallic inclusions in steel. Also in
addition to this calcium treatment is specified to get spherical grains.

September 14, 2011 at 9:39pm via mobile Like

Krishna Desai It is inherent Characteristics of rolling....If you put some impurirties in "aata" and then
try to make roti from one rolling direction only, you will come to know....So, it is very true that hard nut
impurities cannot flow transverse to rolling direction.

September 16, 2011 at 12:33pm Like

Hemant Solanki Purav, In most of the specifications PMC suggest vaccum degassing for plate
manufacturing. Vaccum degassing is used to reduce the sulfur content in plate. Calcium treatment by
its name it reduces calcium content from plate. So in other words all these processescontrolsnon
metallic inclusions in plate which may lead to failure in case of lethal & hic services.

September 18, 2011 at 11:27am Like

Mrudang Mehta Dear Hemant...

November 12, 2011 at 8:58pm Like

Mrudang Mehta just a small correction... please correct me if I am wrong..Vaccum degassing if done
for plates... actually as its name suggest..it is removal of gases.. and not sulphur... u u want i can send
u details of the same... just i need

November 12, 2011 at 9:00pm Like

Mrudang Mehta time to search it..

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November 12, 2011 at 9:00pm Like

SujayMarwah
Please help me out in this:

In one of the case while designing a Reactor following is the problem I am facing:

Material has been specified as 1Cr Mo.


The Design Temperature of the reactor has been given as 485C
Earlier the design temperature was 480C.

When I design the reactor with Design temperature of 485C considering class 2 material,
I am getting following error:
"Allowable Temperature exceeded while computing compressive stress"

But when I designed this reactor with earlier design temperature of 480C, there was no
such error.

I checked out UG-23, and followed chart CS3, where it is specified as "These curves shall
not be used for design temperature above
150

C. Above
150

C, use the appropriate temperature curve shown in Fig. CS-2."

When used CS2, there are temperature curves upto 480C.

So is it that PVELITE is unable to calculate allowable compressive stresses above 480C.

Also one more thing, as per HaldorTopsoe material chart, this material can be used upto
500C.
Like Unfollow Post Share December 2, 2011 at 8:24pm

Hemant Solanki Sujay as discussed you on phone,


If you use Cl.2 material then CS-3 is the external pressure chart. As per CS-3 chart Note-b, These
curves shall not be used for design temperature above 150C. Above 150C, use the appropriate
temperature curve shown in Fig. CS-2. Also as per Note-3, When Table Y-1 yield strength values at
design temperature are less than 260 MPa for the material covered by this chart, Fig. CS-2 shall be
used. In your case yield strength will be around 154 MPA so you can use this option.
So you can use Class 2 material and select CS-2 external pressure chart for this material....However

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you told that even if you are selecting Cl.1 material with CS-2 chart it shows same error line. I suggest
select Cl.2 material and in material property edit CS-3 to CS-2.
FYI, it is not the major error as if you see in pvelite it is not coming under error. Pvelite only
highlighting the situation which they follows in such case.December 4, 2011 at 10:18am Like

Manish Shukla
I am referring to thermal conductivity table TCD in section II part D.
Why thermal conductivity of Carbon Steel (Mat Group-A) decreases with increase in
temperature and Why on other hand thermal conductivity of Stainless Steel (Mat Group-J)
increases with increase in temperature?
Like Unfollow Post Share December 9, 2011 at 7:22am near Houston, TX

Mohamed Hussein likes this.

Manish Shukla Anyone with the answer pls?...its imp cz when u derive skin metal temp for a CS & SS
equipment with same refractory and design condition, skin temp wud be different. December 12, 2011
at 12:26pm Like

Vishal Patil I think ans is something around the expansion of the material..December 12, 2011 at
5:25pm Like

Vishal Patil i think we have to check the phase transformation properties of carbon steel "730C due
to a chemical transformation from ferrite-pearlite to austentite". December 12, 2011 at 5:32pm Like

Purav Desai
Dear group member,

I have following doubt.

While using stainless steel materials, two stress values were available in ASME. For
gasketed joints we generally go with lower allowable stress values at corresponding
temperature as per note G5 of table 1A Section II-D.

Can anybody throw some light on note G5.


Like Unfollow Post Share January 5, 2012 at 2:38pm via mobile
Samir Jani likes this.

Mrudang Mehta Hi Purav, all SS flanges are designed considering lower stress value... this is
because..flanges are not only subject to tensile or compressive stress like shell or heads.. they are also
subjected to torsional stress due to rotation...etc.... so to be safe ... design is done considering lower
allowable stress values.. givinghiger flange thickness...January 5, 2012 at 7:37pm Like 1

Purav Desai hi group members, to add further, my main doubt is regarding 1st and 2nd line of note
G5 referred to table 1A of section II-D.January 5, 2012 at 7:38pm via mobile Like

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Mrudang Mehta idonot recall the notes completely..will check and come back... is my understanding
okieee...January 5, 2012 at 7:40pm Like

Purav Desai hi mrudang. You are correct. However please refer below note G5 first two lines;

"Due to relatively low yield strength of these materials, these higher stress values were established at
temperatures where the short-time tensile properties govern to permit the use of these alloys where
slightly greater deformation is acceptable. The stress values in this range exceed 66 2/3 % but do not
exceed 90% of the yield strength at temperature." ..January 6, 2012 at 8:07am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
In Hydrogen service pad should be avoided as per most of the specifications. is it only
restricted to nozzle pad or other attachment pad is also should not attached on hydrogen
service vessel?
Please keep your views.
Like Unfollow Post Share December 20, 2011 at 7:11pm
Purav Desai likes this.

NiketanMahadik 1) For sour service, generally pads are not restricted unless specifically not allowed
by applicable project specifications.

However, for hydrogen service, it is generally a good engineering practice to avoid pads altogether
considering the risk of HIC (hydrogen induced cracking) in the welds connecting pads to shell. Nozzles
are self-reinforced correspondingly. Pads are however ok for componemnts such as support lugs, cleats
for piping, ladder and platforms in equipments in hydrogen service. Many BUT NOT ALL project
specification adhere to this practice. 2) The hydrogen molecule, because of it's extremely small size,
will diffuse through the solid steel wall. In fact, there are formulae and curves to describe this
phenomenon. However, it depends on the hydrogen partial pressure. if you have a re-pad on the
outside of a vessel, hydrogen will diffuse into the space between the pad and the vessel shell.
Normally, the weep-hole that was drilled into the repad should be sufficient to allow the hydrogen to
escape. However, these weep holes often get forgotten or filled, and hydrogen pressure can built up.
Not a big deal, until the vessel de-pressurizes, and the hydrogen tries to escape, and ends up
pressurizing the vessel shell under the re-pad. After a few cycles of that, fillet welds will likely crack,
and re-pad will no longer be "attached" to the shell. It's a similar process as you would see in hydrogen
blistering...

December 20, 2011 at 8:19pm Like

Mrudang Mehta HI, the specification restricts the use of RF pads..it is not only for sour services but
also for all the Pad for attachments too.. the understanding is if there is hydrogen atom being very
small.. can permeate through the vessel wall... if they pass to atmosphere... not a problem... but if...
gets accumulated between vessel wall and padd

December 20, 2011 at 9:03pm Like

Mrudang Mehta inside can became hazardous...

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December 20, 2011 at 9:03pm Like

Rajendra Sharma Pad for external attachment like pipe support cleats are acceptable.However nozzle
shall be self reinforced type in toyo spec and in shell spec it is above 230 degree C.

December 20, 2011 at 9:40pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki What I understand is if vessel is in Hydrogen service then it is the liquid inside which
contains hydrogen. In that case Nozzle which is piercing vessel shell should not have pad which is
understandable. But cleats which will not going to pierce vessel can be welded on external pad.Because
Hydrogen will first start to diffuse into vessel shell and due to which vessel shell will fail first due to
hydrogen blistering. No where it will hamper external cleats pads.
I am also viewing this requirement in different aspect as in Hydrogen service 100% radiography
requirement is given in most of the specs and on fillet weld radiography is not possible. So it may be
that's why some specs asking to avoid external cleats pads.

December 21, 2011 at 6:22pm Like

Amarnath C. Roy Pads are not applicable to pressure part only...

December 21, 2011 at 10:46pm Like

Mrudang Mehta Sorry friends.... but RF pads are not acceptable for any attachments... be it nozzles
or attachments..

December 23, 2011 at 12:11pm Like

Mrudang Mehta i completely agree with NiketanMahadik

December 23, 2011 at 12:13pm Like

Hemant Solanki This I came across from one of the articles on H2 service :
In hydrogen service pads are not a good idea in fact any part of a vessel with a crevice which is in
hydrogen service is an area of potential failure.
If the fillet weld on a pad is perfect, without flaw, then maybe it would be acceptable but it has to be
perfect.
The inside toe of a fillet weld is prone to small cracks which can occur as the weld cools down and it is
these small cracks that suffer as hydrogen passes through them.
These hairline cracks (if any) will be subject to hydrogen stress corrosion cracking which may
eventually lead to failure of the weld and possibly the component it is attaching to the shell.
It is not possible to examine the inside of such welds because they are inside the pad, maybe they are
in fact perfect, without cracks but maybe not.
It does not matter what type the attachment is, a reinforcing pad of a nozzle or a lifting lug pad and a
crevice is a crevice.
A vessel with a pad on the lifting lug may be lifted some years in the future and if the inside toe of the
fillet weld is degraded because of hydrogen attack it could be catastrophic.

For these reasons it is general policy not have any pads where vessels are in hydrogen service, full
penetration welding only, no crevice and the weld can easily be inspected.

Why take a chance on a fillet weld being free from cracks on the surface or the toe which you cannot
see.

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If you put a vent in the pad the hydrogen still constantly passes through any cracks that may be
present and start the process of stress corrosion cracking.

December 31, 2011 at 6:54pm Like 1

Mrudang Mehta like this... and also agree..

January 3, 2012 at 8:15pm Like

Ankur Gupta i agree with hemant

January 8, 2012 at 10:57am Like

Ankur Gupta i agree with hemant's above description....but further to this my understandung is:

January 8, 2012 at 10:58am Like

Ankur Gupta for nozzle we make opening in the wall either shell or head & hence the welding
between nozzle & wall become critical in H2S service..but in case of external attachments, these
attachments are welded over the wall & hence i think pads should be acceptable......give ur views

January 8, 2012 at 11:01am Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Dear friends,
Can anyone have idea why P number 3 material are not used?
Like Unfollow Post Share January 13, 2012 at 11:29am nearBaroda, Gujarat
NiketanMahadik P number 3 are the low alloy Carbon-Moly and Chrome-Moly steels.... As per my
info. P number 2 materials are not used as P-2 materials are not listed in ASME SEC IX. Historically,
ASME used P2 for wrought iron, however wrought iron pressure vessels are no longer manufactured.
The primary weldability problems with wrought irons are excessive carbon and, in most cases,
extremely low ductility.......

January 13, 2012 at 8:07pm Unlike 2

Rajendra Sharma do we use 1Cr 1/2Mo????

January 15, 2012 at 7:41am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki As per API 941 charts they exempted this material. These charts are plotted as per
the industrial experiences. As per API with this material more accidental reports has been witnessed so
they do not recommend this material for use.

January 15, 2012 at 10:11am Like

Purav Desai yes i agree with hemant. And also alongwith P no 2 materials, P no 3 materials are also
prohibited for the use.

January 17, 2012 at 8:22am via mobile Like

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Purav Desai the main point is LAS materials are used in high pressure, high temperature, hydrogen
service environment. Under such condition we need materials with higher strength. P no. 3 material is
one of the LAS material with the desired properties. It was used in past. However API 941 is pure
experience based code and it has a bitter experience of P no. 3 materials. Its the reason most of the
PMC (EIL, TOYO, JACOBS) specification also say NO to this materials.

January 17, 2012 at 8:31am via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Dear all
Do anyone knows the m and y value for graphite with tanged insert type gasket..
Like Unfollow Post Share February 29, 2012 at 9:15am nearBaroda, Gujarat
Purav Desai Its m = 2 & Y = 2500 psi, i found on below
link;www.flexitallic.com/files/brochures/broDesignCriteria.pdf

March 2, 2012 at 4:44pm Like 1

Purav Desai This gasket is used for high temperature (>454 C) application, is your application
involve high temperature?....March 2, 2012 at 4:48pm Like 1

Mitul Patel
Dear all, Is there any significance of number 175 and 103 in NACE MR0175 &
MR0103.What are basic diff. between two.
Like Unfollow Post Share March 9, 2012 at 7:59pm via mobile
Kumar Kashyap MR0175 is used for upstream (more corrosive environment) whereas MR0103 is for
downstream.March 9, 2012 at 9:44pm Like 1

Kumar Kashyap sour service definition as per MR0175: a partialpressure of H2S in the wet gas phase
of a gas, gas condensate or crude oil equal to or exceeding0.0003MPa abs (0.05 psia)...... sour service
definition as per MR0103 : >50 ppmw dissolved H2S in the free water (recognition that significant
levels of dissolved H2S can result in SSC even in low pressure systems), or A free water pH < 4 and
some dissolved H2S present (recognition that in low pHenvironments significant charging of materials
with atomic hydrogen can take placeirrespective of H2S level), or A free water pH > 7.6 and > 20
ppmw hydrogen cyanide ion (HCN) and some H2S dissolvedin the free water (recognition that at high
pH the HCN ion is stable and results in significantcharging of ferritic materials by poisoning the
formation of a protective iron sulfide scale), or
>0.0003 MPa abs (0.05 psia) partial pressure H2S in a process with a gas phase (based onhistorical
MR0175 definition of sour service, without low-pressure cut-offs)..March 9, 2012 at 9:49pm Like

Purav Desai Dear Mitul, Significance of 175 in NACE MR0175 is that, it was first developed in year
1975 and similarly NACE MR0103 was first issued in 2003. Difference in both the codes rightly
explained in above post by kashyap.March 10, 2012 at 2:33pm Like 1

Purav Desai Further, after issuing the standard, NACE committee found that corrosion mechanisms
for upstream (oil rigs, oil wells) &down stream (refineries) are quite different. And hence both the
standards were separated. If you refer carefully, material requirements & testing methods in both
standards are little different..March 10, 2012 at 2:37pm Like

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Mrudang Mehta If you are a design engineer.. Just remember to mention the same on the data sheet
and remember to confirm the compliance to the same in vendor offer.. I have gone through both of the
NACE in detail number if times.. But able to to use much.. What is important is both call for nearly
same hardness requirement and material composition......March 15, 2012 at 12:10am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
Dear friends
As per 2011 addenda now 304L grade is also added in table UHA-44 which specifies strain
limit. 304 and 304H were already there but 304L is added this time.
FYI 304 and 304H can be used uptown 816 degree centigrade and 304L can be use
uptown 649 degree centigrade.
316L and 321L is not added in this table as its temp limit is 454 degree centigrade.
Like Unfollow Post Share March 4, 2012 at 5:30pm via mobile
Swapnil Deshmukh, NiketanMahadik and 2 others like this.

Krishna Desai Hemant thanks for sharing.............

March 5, 2012 at 8:44pm Like

Hemant Solanki Fibre elongation limit for SS is kept at 20% because above this much elongation
grain size of SS gets more refinement which adversly affects its rupture strength. This becomes more
critical when we select SS for creep range service. so above 20% fibre elongation solution annealing is
done in order to stop refinement of grain structure.
If you see as per my above comment the maximum temp limit for 36L and 321L is 454 degree
centigrade which is below the creep range. in other words these grades will not be selected for high
temperature or creep range services. that's why ASME has intentionally not included these grades in
table UHA-44.
The same was not the case with 304L that's why ASME has corrected this table and included 304L this
time.
If others have any opinion to share.please discuss the same here.

March 7, 2012 at 7:04pm Like

Arpita Shah Thanx for your update.

March 26, 2012 at 2:04pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
Right now reading one interesting article on Titanic ship published in 'Safari' Magazine.
They mentioned that after Titanic accident the investigation team has acquired the broken
ship parts from deep sea. They have tested its steel plate in laboratory and found that the
same steel segment got broken during charpy impact testing. Which is very bad result as
we know that during charpy test the section may get bend but should not broken. It has
been proved that the Titanic ship was made from the steel which have very bad impact
properties or in other words that steel was having more brittleness.
One more interesting thing the investigation team found is that the Titanic whole structure
is joined with around 30,000 riveted joints. That rivets were made of wrought iron. These
rivets were very poor in strength.Titanic engineers thought that as these rivets are large in
numbers it will not affect strength of the ship. But due to poor strength these rivets got

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broken from head section itself due to which the whole structure got opened up from back
side of hip. Through which the sea water rushed into the compartments of ship.
Actually The company who has received order to build Titanic was having treamandous
pressure to built up Titanic ship along with one more ship 'Atlanta' on time. Due to this
they neglected such things considering some assumptions from past experience. But at
last their assumptions proved wrong.
So we should learn from these things. We should strive for output but not on cost of
quality.
Like Unfollow Post Share April 14, 2012 at 7:30pm
Manoj Nandwalkar, Kishor Wani, Ruby Sahu and 8 others like this.

Mitul Patel I have also read this article In addition in what you have mentioned.Article also tells some
thing related to grain orientation of glass fibres in revetsmaterial.which was not as per requiredBut if
you have notice they have tested plates of titanic after number of years it has exposed to sea water.It
is also possible that material properties has been change during this duration & It got failed in impact
testing i.e.britttlefratureApril 14, 2012 at 10:28pm Like 1

Hemant Solanki On an expedition in 1991 to the Titanic wreck, scientists discovered a chunk of metal
lying on the ocean floor that once was a part of the Titanic's hull. The Frisbee sized piece of steel was
an inch thick with three rivet holes, each 1.25 inches in diameter [Gannon, 1995]. Since the retrieval of
this piece of steel, extensive research has been done to uncover additional clues to the cause of the
rapid sinking of the Titanic. The following is a discussion of the material failures and design flaws that
contributed to the disaster.
Material Failures:
When the Titanic collided with the iceberg, the hull steel and the wrought iron rivets failed because of
brittle fracture. A type of catastrophic failure in structural materials, brittle fracture occurs without prior
plastic deformation and at extremely high speeds. The causes of brittle fracture include low
temperature, high impact loading, and high sulphur content. On the night of the Titanic disaster, each
of these three factors was present: The water temperature was below freezing, the Titanic was
travelling at a high speed on impact with the iceberg, and the hull steel contained high levels of
sulphur.
The Hull Steel:
The first hint that brittle fracture of the hull steel contributed to the Titanic disaster came following the
recovery of a piece of the hull steel from the Titanic wreck. After cleaning the piece of steel, the
scientists noted the condition of the edges. Jagged and sharp, the edges of the piece of steel appeared
almost shattered, like broken china. Also, the metal showed no evidence bending or deformation.
Typical high-quality ship steel is more ductile and deforms rather than breaks [Gannon, 1995].
Similar behavior was found in the damaged hull steel of the Titanic's sister ship, Olympic, after a
collision while leaving harbor on September 20, 1911. A 36-foot high opening was torn into the
starboard side of the Olympic's hull when a British cruiser broadsided her. Failure of the riveted joints
and ripping of the hull plates were apparent in the area of impact. However, the plate tears exhibited
little plastic deformation and the edges were unusually sharp, having the appearance of brittle fractures
[Garzke and others, 1994].
Further evidence of the brittle fracture of the hull steel was found when a cigarette-sized coupon of the
steel taken from the Titanic wreck was subjected to a Charpy test. Used to measure the brittleness of a
material, the Charpy test is run by holding the coupon against a steel backing and striking the coupon
with a 67 pound pendulum on a 2.5-foot-long arm. The pendulum's point of contact is instrumented,
with a readout of forces electronically recorded in millisecond detail. A piece of modern high-quality
steel was tested along with the coupon from the hull steel. Both coupons were placed in a bath of
alcohol at -1C to simulate the conditions on the night of the Titanic disaster. When the coupon of the
modern steel was tested, the pendulum swung down and halted with a thud; the test piece had bent

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into a "V." However, when the coupon of the Titanic steel was tested, the pendulum struck the coupon
with a sharp "ping," barely slowed, and continued up on its swing; the sample, broken into two pieces,
sailed across the room [Gannon, 1995]. What the test showed, and the readout confirmed, is the
brittleness of the Titanic's hull steel. When the Titanic struck the iceberg, the hull plates did not
deform. They fractured.A microstructural analysis of the Titanic steel also showed the plausibility of
brittle fracture of the hull steel. The test showed high levels of both oxygen and sulphur, which implies
that the steel was semi-kilned low carbon steel, made using the open-hearth process. High oxygen
content leads to an increased ductile-to-brittle transition temperature, which was determined as 25 to
35C for the Titanic steel. Most modern steels would need to be chilled below -60C before they
exhibited similar behavior. High sulphur content increases the brittleness of steel by disrupting the
grain structure Thesulphur combines with magnesium in the steel to form stringers of magnesium
sulphide, which act as "highways" for crack propagation. Although most of the steel used for
shipbuilding in the early 1900s had a relatively high sulphur content, the Titanic's steel was high even
for the times [Hill, 1996].
The Rivets:
The wrought iron rivets that fastened the hull plates to the Titanic's main structure also failed because
of brittle fracture from the high impact loading of the collision with the iceberg and the low
temperature water on the night of the disaster.With the ship travelling at nearly 25 mph, the contact
with the iceberg was probably a series of impacts that caused the rivets to fail either in shear or by
elongation [Garzke and others, 1994]. As the iceberg scraped along sections of the Titanic's hull, the
rivets were sheared off, which opened up riveted seams. Also, because of the tremendous forces
created on impact with the iceberg, the rivet heads in the areas of contact were simply popped off,
which caused more seams to open up. Normally, the rivets would have deformed before failing because
of their ductility, but with water temperatures below freezing, the rivets had become extremely
brittle.When the iceberg tore through the hull plates, huge holes were created that allowed water to
flood the hull of the ship. As a result, rivets not in the area of contact with the iceberg were also
subjected to incredible forces. Like a giant lever, the hull plates transferred the inward forces, applied
to the edges of the cracked plates by the water rushing into the hull, to the rivets along the plate
seams. The rivets were then either elongated or snapped in two, which broke the caulking along the
seams and provided another inlet for water to flood the ship.
Design Flaws:
Along with the material failures, poor design of the watertight compartments in the Titanic's lower
section was a factor in the disaster. The lower section of the Titanic was divided into sixteen major
watertight compartments that could easily be sealed off if part of the hull was punctured and leaking
water. After the collision with the iceberg, the hull portion of six of these sixteen compartments was
damaged.Sealing off the compartments was completed immediately after the damage was realized, but
as the bow of the ship began to pitch forward from the weight of the water in that area of the ship, the
water in some of the compartments began to spill over into adjacent compartments. Although the
compartments were called watertight, they were actually only watertight horizontally; their tops were
open and the walls extended only a few feet above the waterline [Hill, 1996]. If the transverse
bulkheads (the walls of the watertight compartments that are positioned across the width of the ship)
had been a few feet taller, the water would have been better contained within the damaged
compartments. Consequently, the sinking would have been slowed, possibly allowing enough time for
nearby ships to help. However, because of the extensive flooding of the bow compartments and the
subsequent flooding of the entire ship, the Titanic was gradually pulled below the waterline.The
watertight compartments were useless to countering the damage done by the collision with the
iceberg. Some of the scientists studying the disaster have even concluded that the watertight
compartments contributed to the disaster by keeping the flood waters in the bow of the ship. If there
had been no compartments at all, the incoming water would have spread out, and the Titanic would
have remained horizontal. Eventually, the ship would have sunk, but she would have remained afloat
for another six hours before foundering [Gannon, 1995]. This amount of time would have been

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sufficient for nearby ships to reach the Titanic's location so all of her passengers and crew could have
been saved..April 15, 2012 at 11:55am Like 2

Hemant Solanki
Right now I came across one requirement to avoid stress corrosion cracking from licencor
datasheet. According to which to avoid stress corrosion cracking due to sodium hydroxide
licencor has mentioned to provide one insert pipe of Alloy 625 which will be protrude
inside equipment by 50 mm through nozzle. Equipment and nozzle is of SS 304L.
Can any body share their view with this kind of arrangement how stress corrosion cracking
can be avoided ?
Like Unfollow Post Share April 20, 2012 at 8:01pm
Kiran Gawade likes this.

Purav Desai HI I recently come across NaOH corrosion for the chemical plant. Refer the attached link
it give all idea regarding material selection for NaOH
service.http://www.nickelinstitute.org/~/Media/Files/TechnicalLiterature/AlloySelectionforCausticSodaSe
rvice_10019_.pdf

http://www.nickelinstitute.org/~/Media/Files/TechnicalLiterature/AlloySelectionforCaus
ticSodaService

www.nickelinstitute.org

April 22, 2012 at 7:36am Like Remove Preview

Hemant Solanki Thanks Dear. I think I have this NIDI Paper. I will check in that.

April 22, 2012 at 11:29am Like

Purav Desai
Hi friends,
I come to know one interesting point for equipment/piping painting.

(1) Generally, painting specifications are made considering temperature range, material
(CS/LAS/SS) and whether equipment/piping is insulated/un-insulated. For insulated
equipments/piping only primer is to be applied and for un-insulated, (primer + mid coat +
finish coat) to be applied.

(2) Now coming to insulated piping and insulated equipments with flanged joint
(exchanger specially), we generally apply primer coat only. However, as per standard
practice, insulation is not applied to flanged joints. And hence flanged joint becomes un-
insulated part of the equipment & its painting shall be done accordingly i.e. (primer + mid
coat + finish coat). Hence for such equipments/piping, ideally we shall have two differenet
painting system.

Is above requirement really taken care of in the projects?

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Like Unfollow Post Share March 29, 2012 at 9:46am


Hemant Nikam This is the ancient age pracite from long decades..March 29, 2012 at
email
9:49am via Like

MishalBhatiya Is there any guideline available, when to insulate flange and when not, in both piping
and equipment ?....March 29, 2012 at 1:44pm via mobile Like

Vishal Patil Flanges are also insulated only difference is that thflanges are covers by box type, may be
ready made molded insulation. refer linkhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/68152640/72/THERMAL-
INSULATION-DETAILS-FOR-FLANGES.March 29, 2012 at 7:36pm Like

Purav Desai Hi Vishal, I agree that flanges can be insulated. However as per my experience,
insulation specification made by Owner/PMC clearly define scope for items/parts not to be insulated.
Refer any of the project specification you did/doing, you will find that heat exchanger girth
flanges/covers and some of the piping flanges are not to be insulated. The main reason for that is if
flanged joint is insulated, leakage can not be identified & it can lead to hazard..March 30, 2012 at
9:01am Like 1

Hemant Nikam Hi to everybody,

Purpose of insulation is for heat conservation/losses with atm. Temp.and second is personal protection,
in case of flanges because of thickness and large od than the main shell heat losses from flanges while
keeping uninsulated are very negligible /less, that is main reason for it.

My another question is for tube to tube sheet joint


Anybody have the weld configuration diff. Between partial weld and full strength weld joint,do not say
about design consideration,if you have u paste in reply mail..March 30, 2012 at
email
9:15am via Like

Kumar Kashyap The question is not whether flange can be insulated or not? the question is if a
equipment is insulated and flange is not then do we provide coating till finish
coat(primer+midcoat+finish) on flange? In general in such case, manufacturer will provide only primer
coat same as equipment body which is insulated. But inspector at the site if notice, will ask to apply till
finish coat on uninsulated part. So, this shall be taken care in projects. But I am not sure whether this
is really taken care of and this is what Purav's question is.....March 30, 2012 at 10:04am Like

Hemant Nikam Dear all specifications are made based on the practical experience in that field.
What i wrote in earlier replys are based on my practical exp..March 30, 2012 at
email
10:37am via Like

Vishal Patil No idea..till date i haven't given different painting spec for flanges.April 2, 2012 at
9:51pm Like

Madhusudhan Shetty i understand that even flanges will be having a insulation box up otherwise
there will be a sudden temperature drop which will create a unexpected thermal expansion near the
flanges which is not a good engineering practice..May 1, 2012 at 11:31pm Like

Arpita Shah

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Frdsplz tell me which csmtrl is use for temperature upto 400 deg centigrade for heat
exchanger component.
Like Unfollow Post Share March 20, 2012 at 10:36pm via mobile
Mrudang Mehta Hi,
CS strength decrease drastically after 343 Deg C. For design temp above 343 to approx. 427 Deg C,
LOw alloy steel (LAS) is preferred. SA 387 Gr. 11 Cl 1/2. Hope this helps.March 21, 2012 at
6:30pm via mobile Like

Chetan Patel CS material can be used above 400C also but its property become time dependant and
as Mehta mentioned its allowable stress reduce drastically.March 21, 2012 at 6:36pm Like

Hemant Solanki According to II-D SA 516-60 and SA 516-70 can be use upto 538C. But after 375C
the stress values are based on creep range. So it is better to use it upto 375C.March 21, 2012 at
8:45pm Like

Mrudang Mehta I was trying to recollect and also trying to search for equipment with CS MOC and
design temperature of 400 Deg C. Can you give me examples of same... i think Coke Drums are
operated at temperature above 400 Deg C.. Can you confirm what is MOC of Coke Drums?..March 21,
2012 at 10:48pm Like

Purav Desai Hi, classic example is, equipments handling HP steam. Design Temperature of HP steam
is 427 C &almost in every case carbon steel is the materialMarch 22, 2012 at 9:09am Like

Chetan Patel coke drum moc is 1.25 cr 0.5 Mo + ss 410s cladMarch 22, 2012 at 1:04pm Like

Mrudang Mehta Thanks ChetanMarch 22, 2012 at 1:51pm via mobile Like

Mrudang Mehta Nice example...Purav.. This just slipped of my mindMarch 22, 2012 at
1:52pm via mobile Like

Arpita Shah Thax 2 all of youMarch 22, 2012 at 7:00pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Purav bhai, for steam application e.g. in boilers CS is there.mainly SA 515 due to its
coarse grain structure.March 22, 2012 at 7:34pm Like 1

Amarnath C. Roy We have used SA-516 Gr 70 at 400 C in one of Shell Canada project...There is no
problem if no cyclic service/Thermal fatigue is there...March 22, 2012 at 11:54pm Like

Satvik Patel you can use SA 516 Gr 70March 23, 2012 at 1:22pm Like

Vishal Patil CS material can be used at 400 deg design temperatures, but we must ensure the
operating temperature of the equipment. Creep design or time dependent properties are actually
related to working conditions rather than design condition. Actually equipment rarely touches the
design temperature and pressure conditions so creep issue will not occur. CS use is limited by change
in grain structure due to conti exposure at high temperature so while selecting the CS material for high
temperatures, generally process licencer considered the past experience with the equipment. If past
experience isnot available then better to change the material. I think EIL is limited the use to 350 to
370 degcel, exact number not able to recollect. Selection of material procedure which considers lots of
aspects. Even one can find that the one licencer may be using material but others wont for same
service.March 28, 2012 at 8:45pm Like

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Madhusudhan Shetty special consideration shall be given to bolted jointsMay 1, 2012 at


11:35pm Like

Rajendra Sharma
Hi friends ,please suggest the reason of not using plate MOC for nozzles, As for one of the
ongoing project client requirement is to use only pipe or forging material.
Like Unfollow Post Share May 7, 2012 at 9:18pm

Arpita Shah Bcoz pipe is seamless and if we prepared pipe from plate 100% RT is requiredMay 7,
2012 at 10:19pm via mobile Like

Mihir Jha There is no any reason, its client choice to avoid welding on the nozzlesMay 8, 2012 at
7:11am Like

Hemant Nikam Check Pipes are welded or seamless,and nozzle sizes if upto 12 inch.
If it so then seamless pipes are ok.
reasons may be if 100 radiography is there then cost for plate made nozzles increases.May 8, 2012 at
email
8:31am via Like

Chetan Patel HIC testing is not required for pipe and forging but if you use plate it should be hic
tested....... as rolling is happening on it.May 8, 2012 at 6:30pm Like

Rajendra Sharma In addition to this please note that Plate MOC with 100% RT is also not
acceptableMay 8, 2012 at 7:48pm Like

Hemant Solanki Dear All,


There will be not much increase in cost due to HIC testing or 100% radiography for plate fabricated
nozzles. Because as per projection of nozzles the actual plate length required to fabricate it is not
much. So we can use plate fabricated nozzle with 100% radiography for higher size nozzles (preferably
16" and above).
Rajendra, as discussed in your case client has specifically asked to use forged nozzles (SRN) for all
sizes due to high pressure service. So it merely client choice whether they wants to go with plate
fabricated nozzle for higher size or not..May 8, 2012 at 8:16pm Like 1

Purav Desai Hi Rajendra, As per me, nozzles shall be made from plate if its size is relatively high
(more than 24") and such higher size nozzle is as good as small vessel. Now if vessel shell made of
plate is allowed then whats the problem with nozzle made of plate? Further you can get n no. of
examples including almost all PMC and licenser specification wherein nozzle made of plate is allowed
and such vessels are operating successfully in plant as on date. Hence to me, technically there is no
problem to use nozzle made of plate and client can be convinced accordingly.May 8, 2012 at
8:35pm Like

Patel Sajit For query raised by rajendra, we have checked client is not allowing plate material for
nozzle but allow ERW welded pipe for nozzle size more than 16 inch.
In this case we have to raise the TQ to client and ask for same.May 9, 2012 at
7:37am via mobile Like

Vishal Patil Some aspects to this query:- If the nozzle is bigger than 10" or 14" plate can be used
instead of pipe with 100% RT. If any one want to use plate for smaller nozzles, its difficult to roll plates
in pipe form. Will cause post forming residual stressesMay 15, 2012 at 9:10pm Like 1

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Maulik R Shah
Why UNS no N08904 (SS 904L) comes in non ferrous group as there is 47% iron is
present in the material ??
Like Unfollow Post Share June 20, 2012 at 8:41pm

Hemant Solanki In Section II, Part B, it is easy to call the alloys nonferrous when they are titanium,
copper, zirconium or even nickel-based alloys. However, many alloys listed in B/SB specifications for
nickel alloys are (if developed today) ferrous alloys. These materials all have the unified numbering
system (UNS) alloy identification as N08xxx. The old rule was to consider an alloy to be ferrous if more
than 50% of its composition was of elements other than iron. For all new materials of the present day,
however, the largest element content dictates the specification with which the alloy is to be used. If an
alloy has more than 50% of its content other than iron but with iron still its largest single component, it
would then be a ferrous material. Alloys of the UNS N08xxx type are currently added to ferrous Material
Specifications while simultaneously remaining in the nonferrous ones. N08904 is 44Fe-25Ni-21Cr-Mo.
As iron is 44% and Nickel is more i.e. 25%, this comes into non ferrous group.
However In II-A you will find this UNS number also listed with ferrous material specification and in II-B
it is listed with non-ferrous specification.
But in IID stress values are only given for non ferrous material specification.June 22, 2012 at
8:21pm Like 1

Maulik R Shah thanks Hemant SolankiJune 23, 2012 at 12:45pm Like

Mitul Patel
Does wet H2S service shall be considered as lethal service as per defination given in Asme
section 8 Div.1 UW-2? I have read that inhaling 100 ppm of H2S gas can cause the
death.please share your views.

Like Unfollow Post Share June 21, 2012 at 6:45pm via mobile

Hemant Solanki Requirements for lethal service are scattered through VIII-1, the code cases and the
interpretations. ASME VIII-1 section UW-2 (2007 edition) has most of the requirements for lethal
service. Two definitions of lethal service are provided in UW-2:
[A] vessel is to contain fluids of such a nature that a very small amount mixed or unmixed with air is
dangerous to life when inhaled[B] By "lethal substances" are meant poisonous gases or liquids of such
a nature that a very small amount of the gas or of the vapour of the liquid mixed or unmixed with air is
dangerous to-life when inhaled. For purposes of this Division, this class includes substances of this
nature which are stored under pressure or may generate a pressure if stored in a closed vessel.
It is up to the user to determine if a service is lethal. As per your finding It should come under
Lethal.June 21, 2012 at 8:50pm Like

BikasPaikray H2S is not a Lethal Substances. Its toxic but not a lethal. We have executed a previous
project for MRPL which is H2S service with high pressure but its not considered as lethal
substance..June 22, 2012 at 11:16am via mobile Like

Souji Jose wet H2S and H2S gas are in liquid phase and gaseous phase resp.Hencepl do not consider
behavior of both the same .wet H2S in liquid form is corrosive causes stress induced cracking and

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NACE becomes applicable but is not lethal however gas form in certain proportions could be
lethal.July 3, 2012 at 11:24pm via mobile Like

Ashwani Sharma Lethal Service as per one of client spec is define as.July 18, 2012 at
10:50am Like

Ashwani Sharma CO 12000 ppm mol in gas or liquid stream ; H2S = 1000 ppm mol in gas or liquid
stream and NH3 3000 ppm mol in gas or liquid streamJuly 18, 2012 at 10:51am Like

Mihir Jha Wet H2S or any liquid if it is not specified "Lethal" by process or licensor data sheet. The
liquid can't be assumed to be "lETHAL" by mechanical..July 18, 2012 at 2:29pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Dear friends

In one of datasheet of heat exchanger,the tube material specified is 6 Mo...as per ASME
Section 2 partA..if we consider this material as ferrous..it is Uns 31254..but for non ferrous
..there are so many material available for 6 Mo...soanyonecome across this
material..please suggest which material to be considered...
Like Follow Post Share July 24, 2012 at 10:58am near Gorwa, Gujarat

Purav Desai http://www.chemipetro.co.uk/products/pipes-and-tubes.php

Seamless Tube, Seamless Steel Tube, Seamless Pipe, Seamless Steel Tubing, Seamless
Stainless Steel P

www.chemipetro.co.uk

Chemipetro, leading suppliers of seamless tube, seamless steel tube, seamless pipe, seamless steel
tubing and seamless stainless steel pipesJuly 24, 2012 at 12:48pm Like Remove Preview

Purav Desai There are total 4 grades available for 6Mo;

1) S31254 (SA213)
2) N08925 (SB-677)
3) N08926 (SB-677)
4) N08367 (SB-690)

The major difference is Nickel content which is;


~18% for S31254
~25% for N08925 & N08926
~24% for N08367

Further if you refer ASME Code;


1) SB-677 (N08925 & N08926) to be used for GENERAL CORROSIVE SERVICE

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2) SB-690 (N08367) to be used for SPECIAL CORROSIVE SERVICE

And S31254 is a super austenitic stainless steel with a high level of molybdenum and nitrogen,
providing high resistance to pitting and crevice corrosion.

Other fact of the matter is, as nickel content increases, cost will increase.

Hence selection of grade for 6Mo depends on the service of exchanger.

Request to inform the service..July 24, 2012 at 1:45pm Like 1

Viral Patel Unit is sour water stripper


Services
S/S : steam
T/S : stripped water
This exchanger is reboiler of sour water stripper columnJuly 24, 2012 at 1:59pm via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar Thank u very much sir....


One more doubt...as per ASME sec 2part D..tube material available is welded type only...can we use
it......July 24, 2012 at 2:10pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai SWS unit is a part of Sulfur Recovery Unit. As per my knowledge for SWS reboiler,
S31254 tube will work. At LTC many sulfur jobs were done and as I remember, for most of the cases
material of SWS reboiler tubes is Austenitic SS (304L or 316L). You can check the same.

Further, seamless tube is available in SB-677 & SB-690 grade. For S31254, Sec. II A lists yield & tensile
strength under SA-213 but I do not have idea why allowable stresses are not listed in Sec. II D.

Anyway, if tube size is 1 then use can utilize seamless pipe (SA312 S31254).July 24, 2012 at
3:55pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Dear friends
Is water is always acts like an electrolyte irrespective of amount of salt dissolved in water
(like sea water or demineralised cooling water) for initiating galvanic corrosion ?
Like Follow Post Share August 14, 2012 at 9:03am near Gorwa, Gujarat

Purav Desai No. The reason is as explained below;

An electrolyte is any substance containing free ions that make the substance electrically conductive.
Commonly, electrolytes are solutions of acids, bases or salts (source Wikipedia). Hence, for water to
behave as an electrolyte it must contain salts, acids or bases. Now acid/base is related to PH of water.
The other element and most important is salts which can be found in water in terms of chlorides.

For Sea water chlorides are the maximum (more than 1000 ppm) and that makes it highly conductive
and hence strong electrolyte which can form galvanic cell between dissimilar metal. It is also to be
noted that commonly found galvanic series for metals is also based on sea water.

For Cooling Water, as I observed during my engineering experience, chloride content is generally below
50 ppm. Hence it is comparatively less conductive however it has tendency to form galvanic cell.

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The water which is de-mineralized or deaerated is considered as pure. This kind of water has minimum
chlorides (<10 ppm), its pH is also controlled & it is also free from any sands or dust particles. Thats
the reason galvanic cell cannot be formed in de-mineralized or deaerated with dissimilar material.

If I relate the above with common refinery application, we have many product coolers (which can
either use sea water or cooling water based on availability) are provided with corrosion resistance
alloys (SS/Ti/Non ferrous etc.) and also provided with cathodic protection (painting & anodes) to
prevent from galvanic corrosion.

On other hand, we have BFW Preheaters placed in syngas circuit are used without cathodic protection
since beginning. Here I would like to share my own experience wherein one of the well known
Hydrogen Plant Licensor confirmed that galvanic corrosion does not occur in BFW preheaters.

Hope this will helpAugust 14, 2012 at 5:31pm Like 1

Rohitash Singh Panwar Thanks sir...in one of the exchanger with cooling water on tube
side..themoc is carbon steel but the gasket used is ss spiral wound...thats why we have doubt
regarding galvanic series formation.August 14, 2012 at 6:03pm via mobile Like

Purav Desaihttp://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/bimetallic_20071105114556.pdf

August 15, 2012 at 8:10am Like

Purav Desai Hi Rohitash,

There are two options for your case;

(1) When u say cooling water with Carbon steel channel / tube / tubesheet& SS gasket, Carbon steel
parts will be Anode and SS gasket will be Cathode. In this case, as the cathode to anode area ratio is
very less, chances of galvanic corrosion is minimum. Hence I understand that, with cathodic protection
in place, SS Spiral wound gasket will work.

or

(2) Use Iron Jacketed Gasket.August 15, 2012 at 7:13pm Like 1

Rupesh Ubale Yes any media with Ph more than or less than 7...which is not nuetral...means which is
acidic or basic in nature...will tend to form ions...this means electrolyte....Rate of corrosion depends on
this Ph value....Under ideal circumstances with Ph=7 liq. will not take part into corrosion though there
is presence of two different electropotential material.August 21, 2012 at 10:23pm Like

Harry Chacko
In a user design spec. for Div 2, I found as " non corrosive hydrogen service". The spec. is
actually for the demonstration purpose of a U2 job for ASME certification. Is it possible
that a hydrogen service is non corrosive ?
Like Follow Post Share September 3, 2012 at 3:45am
Ramesh Tiwari Hydrogen will diffuse into steel under certain conditions. The action of hydrogen at
high temperatures and pressures differs from that at low temperatures and pressures. When steel is
exposed to hydrogen at high temperatures and pressures, the steel loses its tensile strength, becomes
brittle and often cracks or blisters. The mechanism of diffusion of hydrogen into steel at high
temperatures and pressures is believed to result from the dissociation of hydrogen molecules to

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monoatomic hydrogen. The partial pressure of monoatomic hydrogen causes the hydrogen to diffuse
into the steel. As the hydrogen diffuses into the steel at high temperatures, it reacts with the carbon to
form methane. The methane does not diffuse out of steel and accumulates to form cracks and blisters.
At low temperatures and pressures, the mechanism of hydrogen diffusion is believed to be associated
with the formation of hydrogen ions as a result of corrosive attack. The hydrogen ions are converted to
monoatomic hydrogen by means of electron exchange.
The embrittlement caused in a vessel by hydrogen diffusion is temporary. If the equipment is shut
down for a period of time, the hydrogen will diffuse from the steel. If the equipment is cooled slowly,
the rate of hydrogen diffusion from the steel will greatly increase. Many process plants operate
normally without giving any particular consideration to hydrogen embrittlement. However, blistering
and cracking is a serious problem with vessels handling hydrogen at high temperatures and
pressures..September 3, 2012 at 10:06am Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Austenitic stainless steel electrodes

Why Austenitic stainless steel electrodes are generally smaller in length ?


Austenitic SS have high thermal coefficient of expansion and Lower thermal conductivity
compared to carbon steels. Hence they retain heat for longer time and electrodes have
tendency to get RED HOT while welding. To avoid this the electrode sizes are smaller in
length compared to carbon steel ones.

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not the intended recipient, any reading, use, disclosure, copying or distribution of all or
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Like Unfollow Post Share September 4, 2012 at 2:12pm via Email
Harry Chacko likes this.

Mukesh K Prajapati Worth to share. Thanks Hemant.September 4, 2012 at


4:06pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki
For 645C design temperature can I use SS 321 grade because at this temperature
stresses are time dependent (creep range). II-D has given stress value based on stress
rupture crietria. Share your views about whether we can use these values without any
other considerations?
Purav Desai Dear Hemant, Can you inform operating temperature &service?..August 31, 2012 at
12:36pm Like
Hemant Solanki Dont know exactly. But I think operating temp will be above 550C with high
temperature service.
Purav Desai service means what is the fluid? is it a process gas?...August 31, 2012 at 3:20pm Like
Hemant Solanki Dont know exactly as query has been raised by some other person. You discuss
what is the effect of it.

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Purav Desai Hemant, I am quite sure that 645 C design temperature is referring to some fired
equipment. And if operating temperature is less than the temperature referring to time dependent
properties, SS321 can be used else it is general practice to use H grade of SS materials in fired
equipments like SS321H, SS347H etc.September 1, 2012 at 7:13am Like
Madhusudhan Shetty I am also of the opinion that 347H..September 5, 2012 at 10:39am Like
Madhusudhan Shetty stabilsed grade can be used for the temperature, idont think eqpt is fired
heater , fired heater is generally 850 deg cSeptember 5, 2012 at 10:41am Like

Hemant Solanki
SA 105 and SA 266

SA-105 is the specification for carbon steel forgings for piping application. As per its scope
demarcation it shall be limited upto 4540 Kg weight and shall not be used for Tubesheets
application. Simply as tubesheets are not piping components they have excluded it from
here.
SA-266 is introduced for forging used for pressure vessel application. This specification is
applicable for tubesheets.
Even though stress values are same ASME has differentiated these two specs for different
heat treatment and manufacturing requirements for these specs as both are in use for
different applications.

Like Unfollow Post Share September 5, 2012 at 12:17pm via Email

Mitul Patel
Dear all,

As per below ASME interpretation code does not allow SA 105 material as tubesheet.

Can anybody share advantages of using SA 266 material over SA 105.

There may be some fundamental behind this by ASME.

Interpretation: VIII-1-89-178

Subject: Section VIII, Division 1 (1989 Edition), SA-105


Date Issued: March 20, 1990
File: BC90-224
Question: May forged SA-105 blind flanges complying with ANSI B16.5 in pressure Classes
150
through 600 be utilized as heat exchanger tubesheets for Section VIII, Division 1
construction provided
that both flange and tubesheet calculations are performed to verify that the thickness and
bolting meet the
requirement of the Code?

Reply: No. (See para. 1.1 of SA-105 for scope limitation.)

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Please share your views.


Like Unfollow Post Share September 1, 2012 at 7:05pm
Hemant Solanki SA-105 is the specification for carbon steel forgings for piping application. As per its
scope demarcation it shall be limited upto 4540 Kg weight and shall not be used for Tubesheets
application. Simply as tubesheets are not piping components they have excluded it from here.
SA-266 is introduced for forging used for pressure vessel application. This specification is applicable for
tubesheets.
Even though stress values are same ASME has differentiated these two specs for different heat
treatment and manufacturing requirements for these specs as both are in use for different
applications..September 8, 2012 at 8:53pm Like

Purav Desai Very rightly said by Hemnat, heat treatment are different, if you refer SA-105
specification in Sec.-II, heat treatment is not mandatory for all SA-105 components whereas SA-266
forgings must undergo either annealed, normalized, or normalized and tempered heat
treatment..September 9, 2012 at 5:38am Like 1

Mihir Jha
What does W and C states for SA-216 WCB material ?
Is it wrought carbon?
Like Unfollow Post Share September 25, 2012 at 9:58am
Rahul Chavan Yes, it is correct. Another meaning of WCB - Weldable cast B- Grade carbon
steel.September 25, 2012 at 10:15am Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari W means welded C castable

Hemant Solanki SA-216 is steel flange and fitting specification for Steel Castings, Carbon, Suitable for
Fusion Welding for High-Temperature Service.
C stands for Casting and W stands for Fusion Welding.

Hemant Solanki
Q/T vs N/T

QUENCHING AND TEMPERING

Oriented toward carbide steels such as carbon-moly, this process is designed to enhance
toughness as well as controlling yield strength and ultimate tensile strength of steel. The
steel is heated to above its upper critical temperature and quickly immersed in fresh water
or brine to achieve rapid setting of the desired metallurgical structure. Oil quenching is
sometimes used. The usual practice is to quench until cooling reaches around 800oF,
quickly followed by a tempering period in a fired furnace in order to soften the martensitic
structure and achieve the desired mechanical properties in the material including a desired
measure of ductility. The tempering process is, in effort, a stress relieving process.

NORMALIZING AND TEMPERING

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This process is used for virtually the same purposes as quenching and tempering. It differs
in that normalizing is accomplished by cooling in air in place of fast quenching in a liquid.
Air normalizing, much slower than liquid quenching, may be used by itself or the material
may be subjected to a controlled furnace tempering process in order to better control
desired mechanical properties.

Steel manufacturers will furnish material in either of the above conditions when so
specified on the purchase order or as required by the material specification.

As a cautionary note; alloyed steel mechanical properties are ultimately determined by the
tempering process and if the materials are subsequently welded during fabrication,
subsequent stress relieving temperature, if used, should not exceed that of the tempering
process, otherwise mechanical properties of the material may be adversely affected.

Hemant Solanki
SA 333 Gr 6

Which element makes SA 333 Gr 6 to use for low temperature condition ?

Kumar Kashyap likes this.

Kumar Kashyap As per my understanding, it is not the element that makes it suitable for LT service.
It is the different heat treatment process (normalizing etc.) as per ASTM specification that makes it
suitabale for LT service..October 4, 2012 at 1:16pm Like

Hemant Solanki I think its Manganese which provides low temperature suitability to this material.

Kumar Kashyap but manganese is also present in SA -106 B... but it is not for low temperature
service..October 4, 2012 at 6:07pm Like

Hemant Solanki It has to be impact tested @ -50 F to be classified as SA333 Gr.6. MTR would have
to show the results.
Also In ASTM A 333 Gr 6, unwanted materials like vanadium, Niobium, Copper, cobalt etc are not
present, whether intentionally or unintentionally added. Moreover compared to other grades it is fine
grain steel and (I think) bit cheap compared to 333 Grade 1 ( only Gr 1 and 6 follow strict chemical
composition)

Above said is my small analysis from my limited study. Others can add.

Hemant Solanki If we compare Low temperature Carbon steel i.e A 333 Gr 6 with High temperature
Carbon steel i.e A 106 Gr B, there is no major difference in chemical composition.
The difference is grain size. A 333 is fine grain steel, where as A 106
is coarse grain steel.
Fine grain in LTCS is achieved by Combination of heat treatment during pipe manufacturing process
.refer ASME Sec 2 Part A, A 333 forheat process used.
Fine grain steel posses good impact properties when compared to coarse grain steel.
Only this makes the difference between A 333 and A 106 pipe.

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October 7, 2012 at 11:59am Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Gasket MOC for acetic acid service

Can anyone tell suitable gasket MOC for acetic acid service...
We have opted expanded PTFE but in past project 'White Silicon' gasket was used..
If anybody have any information on 'White silicon' gasket then please share... What will be
it's m & y value??
Like Unfollow Post Share October 29, 2012 at 10:34am via Email
Manish Shukla for acetic acid applications flexitalic LSI OR equivalents can be used

October 29, 2012 at 11:27am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki uploaded a file.


Phosphorus in weldable steel

Why Phosphorus is very low in weldable steel ( 0.05 Maximum ). ? How it affect
weldability ?

Phosphorus to a limited extent increases the machinability of steel. However it's effect on
weldability is terrible.

Beyond the range specified below, it affects weldability through formation of low melting
embrittling compounds which solidifies in the grain boundaries. This leads to commonly
known solidification cracks e.g "hot cracks".

Also "P" in addition to As,Sb& S causes significant embrittlement, known as temper


embrittlement manifested as significant reduction in impact strength.

Pressure vessel and high strength structural steels even restrict "P" to further lower limits,
e.g -0.04% or even below.

Like Unfollow Post Share November 3, 2012 at 10:58am

Mihir Jha
For flare stack (18 m Height X 6 m Dia) which is lined with refractory, the client has
specified to use SA-516-70 (Min.), Ourjustifcation "
Flare stack is a structural member open to atmosphere and therefore it is not considered
to be pressure vessel. SA-516/515-Gr 60/70 is generally used for pressure part for
pressure vessel."

Hence, we are proposing to use the structural steel (SA-36) for flare stack.
The client has rejected our justifiaction.

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Could you please provide any other advantage apart from cost to use SA-36 over SA-516-
70?
Like Follow Post Share October 25, 2012 at 2:24pm
Sanjay Rathod SA 283 Gr.C can used for flare stackOctober 26, 2012 at 10:47am Like

Madhusudhan Shetty 6 m dia is it a flare stack or Incinerator chimney stack, Further we cannot use
structural steel since the flare will be operating at elevated temperature and sometimes based on the
plant exhaust if H2S is present in the gas SA 36 cannot be used..October 26, 2012 at 3:22pm Like

Purav Desai I do agree with Madhusudhan Shetty, Flare MOC selection should take care of refractory
failure case as described in API 537 2008 C.3.3. If refractory fails, it can have detrimental effect on
shell material. Gases diverted to stack are corrosive in nature (H2S, Sox, Nox etc.). Also if refractory
fails, it can generate local hot spot on the shell material and if temperature exceeds 343C, SA-36 can
not work there. Further, if NACE MR0103 or NACE MR0175 is applicable shell material shall be procured
accordingly. I have never seen SA-36 to complying NACE requirements. The above requirements can
be met easily with SA 516 material. And hence, I believe that SA-36 can not be used.November 1,
2012 at 6:29pm Like

Mihir Jha The discussion is still going on with client about SA-36 or SA-516-70. Any further
information will be shared. Thanks Puav&Madhusudhan Shetty.November 2, 2012 at 11:41am Like

AkilKazi This may be as shared by everybody considering the scenario of refractory failure case when
metal may get exposed to sulfur rich gases which may require steel with less impurity.November 9,
2012 at 4:47pm Like 1

Arpita Shah
what is the meaning of nil ductility transition temp? where it is applicable?
Like Unfollow Post Share November 19, 2012 at 3:48pm via mobile
Hemant Solanki You may know carbon steels and low alloy steels exhibit a drastic change in their
room temperature ductility, at sub -zero service temperatures. Different
types of materials exhibit different types of transition behavior. We can see there is a
sudden, phenomenal drop in their notch-toughness properties below the "transition" range of
temperature, which should be a matter of concern for us. Body centered cubic or Ferritic alloys exhibit
a significant transition in behavior when impact tested over a range of temperatures. Above transition
temperature range, impact specimens fracture in a "ductile" manner, absorbing relatively large
amounts of energy. At lower temperatures, i.e. below the transition temperature range, the impact test
specimens are found to fracture in a brittle (cleavage) manner, absorbing less energy. And within the
transition temperature range, the fracture is a mixture of ductile and brittle nature. A material would be
invulnerable to a sudden drop in notch-toughness at the lowest specified service (or design)
temperature, if only be proved by conducting Charpy V-notch Impact tests on representative test
samples, at reference (the lowest service) temperature. Grain refined carbon steel forgings and
wrought materials (thoroughly worked and normalized) generally exhibit good notch toughness.

email
November 19, 2012 at 4:14pm via Like

Rajesh Deswal

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If vendor is using 316Ti instead of 316L in a vessel, is there any risk of inter-crystalline
corrosion? Medium is crude silane (group of silicon hydrides that are analogous to the
paraffin hydrocarbons)
Like Unfollow Post Share November 26, 2012 at 12:04pm
Purav Desai Dear Rajesh, SS 316Ti is better material than SS 316L when we talk @ intergranullar
corrosion. Titanium is added to stainless steel to stabilize the precipitation of chromium carbide.
Further, SS316Ti contains 0.08% carbon & additional alloying elementTitanium. So in your case you
just need to make sure that SS 316 is suitable for the process medium (crude silane) and if SS316 is ok
then SS316Ti can be used instead of SS316L.November 26, 2012 at 6:10pm Like

Hemant Solanki 316Ti can be use at max temp of 600-900C. 316L and 316Ti have same Cr-Ni
content. Only thing is 316Ti have 2% Ti in it. But with only 2% Ti it will not form Titanium Carbide in
such amount that it protects chromium and due to which 316Ti will not be useful much to prevent IGC.
Thats why we prefers 321 grade which is having 10% Ti in it. Which generates enough Ti-Carbide to
protect Chromium in solution. We prefers 316L due to its low carbon content which prevents formation
of chromium carbide. Also 316L grade will not be in use above 450C. So with use of 316L we ensure
that chromium is not depleting during welding and fabrication process. If operating temp limit of your
equipment is above 600 and then 321 is preffered option. Otherwise 316L can be use upto 450C. If
316Ti is using then just ensure that with 2%Ti you will get IGC resistance application during fabrication
of equipment.November 27, 2012 at 3:51pm Like

Mihir Jha
As per project requirement, the companion flanges at the quipment nozzle shall be as per
piping flange which is connected to the equipment. The piping flange as per piping
material class is A 694 F52. The vessel is U Stamped. Is it possible to provide the flange
material A 694 F52 as it is not listed in ASME Sec II for code stamped vessel?
Like Follow Post Share November 29, 2012 at 10:25am
Mohamed Hussein likes this.

Chetan Raval pleas refer UCS-5 of ASME SEC VIII DIV 1. it is not listed in table UCS-23.hence u cant
use it for U stamp vessel.November 29, 2012 at 10:34pm Like

Chetan Raval
For one of our recent project , we have Alloy28(UNS N08028) material for tubes. Tube
side fluid is cooling water & shell side fluid is sour water. hereNace MR0103 is applicable
for shell side. Shall tubes also meet requirement of NACE MR0103. Please share ur views.
Like Follow Post Share December 11, 2012 at 11:24pm
Purav Desai Yes. NACE MR 0103 is applicable to tubes/tubesheet/baffles/tie rods/spacers. However,
as per me, there are no special requirements in NACE MR 0103 for tubes....December 13, 2012 at
9:27am Like

Chetan Raval thanks purav....December 16, 2012 at 8:38pm Like

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Viral Patel
Dear all,

Has anyone come across the tube MOC SMO 254. It is baically austenitic stainless steel
UNS 31254.
I didn't find allowable stress in ASME for seamless tube material. It has a good resistance
to chloride induced SCC so what is the benifit for use of this tube material compared
duplex ss. As per my opinion,when there is a high chloride content , we go for duplex and
then non ferrous.
Like Follow Post Share December 21, 2012 at 8:12am via mobile
Purav Desai Dear Viral, There are couple of factors associated with the use of 254 SMO material.
Refer the attched fantastic article, it explains all the features of 254 SMO and compares it with SS316L,
904L and Nickel Alloys. Share this article in MTB if possible.....December 21, 2012 at 8:30am Like 1

Viral Patel Puravbhai,


Thanks a lot for sharing this.
Please guide me for design point of view as i am not finding allowable for seamless tube SA 213 UNS
31254 in ASME......December 21, 2012 at 9:46am via mobile Like

Purav Desai Hi Viral, we already discussed @ allowable stress for S31254 tubes. For tubes 1" and
above, i think we can apply seamless pipe with Sch.5S or 10S. Refer below link for more
detail.https://www.facebook.com/groups/staticequipment/permalink/450099175024779/

Abhishek Salgaonkar
In one of my project,For SA 387 Gr.12 Cl.2 material client has suggested to follow the
material and fabrication requirement as API RP 943-C. But I didnt find such a code in
API.The correct code may be API RP 934-C.Has anybody came across the API RP 943-
C.Please advice
Like Follow Post Share December 20, 2012 at 4:29pm
Purav Desai Dear Abhishek, Your understanding is correct. I also did not find any code like API RP
943. Also,if your material is SA-387 Gr.12, then even API RP 934-C is not applicable because 934-C is
only for 1.25 Cr materials and SA-387 Gr.12 material has 1 Cr. So please double check before applying.
Further, there is one technical report API TR 934 D, Technical Report on the Materials and Fabrication
Issues of 1.25 Cr-0.5Mo and 1Cr-0.5Mo Steel Pressure Vessels. So this can be useful to
you....December 21, 2012 at 6:57pm Like

Purav Desai Long ago, there was one standard API 943 High Temperature Crude Oil Corrosivity
Studies. But it was withdrawn in 1991.....December 21, 2012 at 7:00pm Like

Purav Desai
What is significance of "Ferrite Number (FN)" in welding of stainless steel?
Like Unfollow Post Share January 25 at 1:03pm near Seoul, South Korea

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Hemant Solanki The term Ferrite Number, designated FN, has been adopted as a relative measure
for quantifying ferrite content using
standardized magnetic techniques. The FN approach was developed in order to reduce the large
variation in
ferrite levels determined on a given specimen when measured using different techniques by different
laboratories. FN
approximates the "volume percent ferrite" at levels below 8 FN. Above this level, deviation occurs,
where the FN value
exceeds the actual volume percent ferrite. For example, a weld metal with 16 FN contains
approximately 13.8 vol%. A number of instruments are commercially available for determining the
ferrite content of welds, including the Magne gage, Severn gage, and ferrite scope.
It is a precisely measurable quantity that is roughly proportional to the actual volume percentage of
ferrite at room temperature

WRC-1992 DIAGRAM PREDICTING FERRITE CONTENT IN STAINLESS STEELS. FERRITE CONTENT IS


GIVEN BY THE FERRITE NUMBER (FN), WHERE 100 FN IS APPROXIMATELY EQUAL TO 65 VOL%
FERRITE......January 25 at 2:11pm Like

Purav Desai Yes, but what is its significance? Does it have something to do with IGC/Chromium
Carbide formation in SS during welding and does it indicates any effects properties of SS?...January 26
at 12:51pm Like

Mihir Jha
While reviewing the datasheet for column internals, i found a note " S.S material which
may come in with C.S is to be separated by insulating pads in order to prevent corrosion".
What is the impact of this note?
Like Follow Post Share January 29 at 4:30am

Madhusudhan Shetty CS in contact with SS are avoided to prevent Galvanic corrosion...February 2 at


8:29pm Like

Purav Desai
Minimum U bend radius for Nickel alloy tubes conforming to SB-163.

Please take care of below requirement of ASME Sec. II-B, SB-163 for Nickel
alloy U tubes applied for heat exchangers. This covers Monel, Inconel 600,
Incoloy 800, Incoloy 800H and Incoloy 825.

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Like Follow Post Share March 29 at 11:45am

Ramdas Kadam, Kiran Gawade and 2 others like this.

Purav Desai For cases falls above, like conventional cases bend radius like 1.5 Tube OD or 2 Tube OD
may not work for all the cases.March 29 at 11:46am Like

Hemant Nikam Mr. Purav Thanks for sharing .Given limitation is for the minimum only so we can not
take as per standard practice 1.5...2.0 times of Tube OD for all tube OD's .............Also I noticed no
one PMC/Client specification specified for the SB 163 minimum U bend radius limit ... if anybody
noticed share it.March 29 at 4:08pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar I have observed the same for titanium and duplex tubes in shell dep.....shell
DEP says minimum u bend radius for titanium and duplex shall be 3.3 times of tube ODMarch 29 at
4:13pm via mobile Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar We have encountered the problem for the same forduplex tubes...in one of
our project...for duplex tubes minimun u bend radius specified is 1.5 times of tube od but its thickness
is less...so during fabrication of u bend...vendor came out with query that they are not able to meet the
requirement as the tube cracks while bending..even the tube thickness is sufficient as per TEMA
calculation for u bend..March 29 at 4:16pm via mobile Like

Hemant Nikam CORRECT SO PROCESS TO CHANGE THE TUBELAYOUT..INNERMOST TUBE C--C


DISTANCE GREATER THAN THE MINIMUM LIMIT...IF THEY STICK ON THICKNESS BCAS OF THERMAL
PERFORMANCE.March 29 at 4:18pm Like

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Rohitash Singh Panwar Tube thickness for innermost tube row is increased and thermal is checked
for increase tube thickness...no need to increase the layout..March 29 at 4:23pm via mobile Like

Hemant Nikam CORRECT SOLUTION BUT PROCESS TO CHECK......FOR EFFECTIVENESS OF THAT


TUBE ROW.....March 29 at 4:25pm Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar I think purav is right...take one example for tube od as 25.4 and thickness
as 1.24mm and stress relived only...then as per table minimum od is 101.6..which is 4 times tube
od....so u cannot use 1.5 times or 2 times bend radius for that thickness...if u want to use the less
band radius then you have to increase the thickness of tube for innnermost rows as per table
5..March 29 at 4:27pm via mobile Like 1

Hemant Nikam YES LIMIT IS FOR MINIMUM ..NOT MAXIMUM. BUT PROCESS ACCOMODATE
MAXIMUM NOS OF U TUBES IN SAME SHELL ID.SO WE HAVE TO MANITAIN THE MINIMUM
CONDITION, FOR HIGHER WE HAVE TO CHECK THE THINNING <17%...(LESSER THAN THE MINIMUM
RADIUS CONDITION).March 29 at 4:51pm Like

Nirav Desai
Hello everyone, I am new to this group, I had a question regarding
nomenclature of the steels and special metals (like why ss316 or ss304, is it
based on composition or something else.). Can anyone help me on that?
Like Follow Post Share March 26 at 7:56pm

Hemant Nikam Dear Mr. Nirav Kindly refer the below ******************
CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF SS304 AND SS316 .

C Mn P S Si Cr Ni Mo
SS304-0.08 2.0 0.045 0.03 1.0 18.0-20.0 8.0-10.0 -
SS316-0.08 2.0 0.045 0.03 1.0 16.0-18.0 10.0-14.0 2.0-3.0
****************************************
From the above chemical composition chart we can see the main difference between SS304 and SS316
is that SS316 contains 2%-3% molybdenum and SS304 has no molybdenum.Now the question arises
that we are paying double money for SS316 only for that 2.5% 'Moly'.The answer is yes, because this
"molybdenum" is added to improve the corrosion resistance to chlorides (like sea water).That is why in
coastal area plants SS316 is used.*****************March 27 at 11:48pm Like

Nirav Desai yes, you r right . But my question is regarding assigning the name as "SS316" , is 3, 1
and 6 denotes something?....March 27 at 11:59pm Like

Hemant Nikam Austenitic steels 300 series starts from 01 to 99 so the last two digits of nos are not
related to chemical composition as well as with any mechanical property,it is simple numbering of
austenitic stainless steel grades given by increasing and decreasing of the alloying elements.
Cr,Ni,Ti,Nb,...C..N etc),SS301,302,303,304,305...310...316,317...321..347....are availlable in markets
some the intermittent grades are not commonly used and deleted from the 300 series of austenitic
steel......March 31 at 1:51am Like 1

Purav Desai Hi Nirav, I found following on internet. There is an ASTM standard to fix up UNS
numbers. UNS numbers are simillar to grade of stanless steel like for SS316 UNS no. is S31600 and so

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on.http://img03.mysteelcdn.com/wz/uploaded/steel/2009/09/09/File/tgpdf/ASTM%20E527-
83.pdfApril 1 at 11:49am Like 1

Hemant Nikam For Austenitic SS group relationship of the UNS no and commonly used Alloy name
for sulphur series are first 3 digits and for nitrogen series last 3 digits. Ex. for UNS S31600 for this
commonly used alloy name is Grade 316 and for N08904 is grade 904L.For Duplex SS last four digits
but it somewhere matched Ex. UNS S32304 alloy Name is SAF2304 ,S32750 Alloy name is SAF2507
which is not matching as above.....April 2 at 1:54am Like 1

Hemant Nikam For details refer my post file SS Grades dated 03/04/2013.April 5 at 1:46am Like

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Hemant Nikam

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***************************************
What is NACE?
*********************************
NACE used to stands for the National Association of Corrosion Engineers, but
the name of the society was changed to NACE International several years ago
to signify the international scope of NACE membership and activities.
Naming System:
NACE XX 00 00
NACE MR0175 means
MR stands for Material Requirements
01 indicates it was the first Material Requirements standard issued in 1975
by NACE
75 stands for the year 1975
This scheme is used for all NACE standards, which include
TM means Test Methods
RP means Recommended Practices SP means Standard Recommended
Practices
**NACE is in the process of changing the designations RP to SP.
Use the equivalent SP document when it is issued.
**********************************************
NACE Standards used in Sour Service:
********************************
NACE MR01-75 / ISO 15156 Materials for use in H2S-containing
environments in oil and gas production.
NACE MR01-03 Materials Resistant to Sulfide Stress Cracking in Corrosive
Petroleum Refining Environments.
NACE TM01-77 Laboratory testing of metals for resistant to sulfide stress
cracking and stress cracking in H2S environments.
NACE TM02-84 Evaluation of pipeline and pressure vessels steels for
resistance to hydrogen induced cracking.
**********************************************
NACE-MR-0175:-Objectives:
**************************************************
1)To establish limits of H2S partial pressure for precautions against sulfide
stress cracking
(SSC)
2)To provide guidance for the selection and specification of SSC-resistant
materials when
the H2S thresholds were exceeded
3)To provide application limits for some corrosion-resistant alloys, in terms of
environmental composition and pH, temperature and H2S partial pressure

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4)To provide requirements and recommendations for materials qualification


and selection
for safe application in environments containing wet H2S in oil and gas
production systems
***************************************************
Like Follow Post Share March 6 at 1:08pm

Arpita Shah, Purav Desai, Ramdas Kadam and 3 others like this.

Sandeep Wadhwani very good information in short...thanks

April 23 at 7:33am Like

Rohitash Singh Panwar


Learning of a current project for carbon steel tube metallurgy for Division 2 equipment.
In one of our ongoing project,there are few exchanger which are to be designed as per Division
II. During feed stage , the tube material selected for Division II exchanger was SA 179.We had
also considered the same tube material and design the exchanger in Aspen Tech software and
release the engineering drawing with SA 179 as a tube material.
During the vendor drawing review, vendor has came up with the query that SA 179 material is
not permitted in Div 2 as per table 5A of ASME Sec II part .
As the material is not permitted as per Div II, we had changed the tube material at vendor
drawing review stage to SA-210 A1 with the limitation on carbon percentage to 0.23% as
required by specification.

Reason for error: As we had designed the exchanger in Aspen Tech software, which doesn't take
care of allowed material as per Division II as Pvelite does.

Summary: SA 179 tube material is not permitted as per ASME Sec VIII Division II and we have to
check the specified material for all the component of Division II equipments as per Table 5A of
ASME Sec II part D to avoid such kind of error which lead to problem at later stage.
Like Follow Post Share April 23 at 11:05pm

Arpita Shah, Purav Desai, Sachin Pawar and 16 others like this.

Mitul Patel Compress also does not have heat exchanger module for Div.2 as of now.They are
developing.As UHX tube sheet design is same in both users do tube sheet as per Div.1.But such error can be
happened because software use material database of Div.1.Please take care for SA-179.April 24 at
7:33am via mobile Like 1

Purav Desai Good one Rohitash. Similarly, SA-179 is not allowed in ASME Sec-I & Sec. III. ASME Section-I is
for Power Boilers. In india for vessel/exchangers in steam generation service, Indian Boiler Regulations (IBR)

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Page 280 of 390

is applicable. IBR is simillar to ASME Sec. I because both codes are for boilers. And thats why some of the
Indian consultants doesnot allow use of SA-179 wheree IBR is appli a leApril 24 at 10:52am Like 3

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Just asking on curiosity? Does getting a certified UDS at the begining of the job
help in avoiding this kind of issues. Of course this question is restricted to U2 job only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....April 25
at 7:39am Like

Sandeep Wadhwani
Dear All,

Could you tell me what is the exact difference between Lining, Cladding and weld overlay?
Like Unfollow Post Share April 26 at 5:12am near Seoul, South Korea
VuppalaGopinath Lining is a liner which is inside the CD portion which will be tack welded etc.
Cladding is done at the mills where ass plate is joined to the cs portion by explosion bonding etc. Weld
over lay is deposition of ss by melting it at done at fabricator shops mainly used for nozzles. Hope this
clarifies.April 26 at 5:38am via mobile Like

Purav Desai Also refer Book on Pressure Vessel Design by Henry H. Bender, Chapter 11 sub part 11.3
(page no. 290, 291, 292, 293).April 26 at 3:02pm Like

Patel Sudhir Now a days liner is not being used in pressure vessel industry...almost it is
outdated....now only two methods are being used in industries for the corrosion resistace purpose i.e
rolled or explosion bonded clad plate and weld overlay method... There are many factors over selecting
either clad or weld overlay..like cost, time, material availabilities and also some time fabrication
methods... Latest overlay process is being used in industry is ESSC ( Electro slag strip cladding)...it can
be done using single layer or double layer method...single layer method is fast and economic....but
certain wps and pqr needs to be qualified and require client approval.April 26 at
3:25pm via mobile Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Layman language...


Weld over lay is jam on bread..
Cladding is cheese pizza..
Liner is sandwich...April 26 at 3:39pm via mobile Like 2

Hemant Solanki All 3 are different methods of using SS shield over CS or LAS base metal.. Cladding is
process by which we can make readymade plates with SS sheets bonded over CS or LAS base.. Lining
is just like applying painting over a internal surface of vessel. So thorough inspection is required after
lining to ensure it is applied uniformly over the surface. Weld overlay is SS built up over the welded
joints. As we know that while joining cladded plates it is required to remove cladded portion in order to
have FPW weld. After welding that removed portion is again repaired by means of weld overlay.April
26 at 4:12pm Like

Sandeep Wadhwani Thanks to all..i think now i will never forget these...all answer are really enough
to understand exactly.April 26 at 7:26pm Like

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1)
Hemant Nikam
****************************************************
WHAT IS SOUR SERVICE ???
*Exposure to oilfield environments that contain H2S and can cause cracking of
material by the following mechanisms.
*****************************************************
Hydrogen-induced cracking (HIC).
Sulfide stress cracking (SSC).
Stress corrosion cracking (SCC).
Soft zone cracking (SZC).
Stepwise cracking (SWC).
Stress-oriented hydrogen-induced cracking (SOHIC).
Galvanically-induced hydrogen stress cracking(GHSC).
**********************************************************
Hydrogen Induced Cracking (HIC)
***************************
Planar cracking that occurs in carbon and low alloy steels when
atomic hydrogen diffuses into the steel and then combines to form
molecular hydrogen at trap sites.
****************
Sulfide Stress Cracking (SSC)
***********************
Cracking of metal involving corrosion and tensile stress in the
presence of water and H2S.
****************
Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC)
*************************
Cracking of metal involving anodic process of localized corrosion and
tensile stress in the presence of water and H2S.
*****************
Soft Zone Cracking (SZC)
********************
Form of SSC that may occur when contains a local Soft Zone of low
yield strength material.
****************
Stepwise Cracking (SWC)
********************
Cracking that connects hydrogen induced cracks on adjacent planes in steel.
*****************
Stress Oriented Hydrogen Induced Cracking (SOHIC)
******************************************
Staggered small cracks formed approximately perpendicular to the
principle stress resulting in a ladder-like crack array linking pre-existing
HIC cracks.
******************
Galvanized Induced Hydrogen Stress Cracking (GHSC)

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************************
Cracking that results due to presence of hydrogen in a metal, induced
in the cathode of a galvanic of a galvanic couple, and tensile stress.
********************
Hydrogen Stress Cracking (HSC)
**************************
Cracking that results from the presence of hydrogen in a metal and
tensile stress (residual and/or applied).
********************************************************************
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MR01-75 / ISO 15156 & MR01-03
********************************************************************
One of the key differences between the MR0175 and
MR0103 Standards lies in the guidelines addressing the
environmental conditions under which SSC is likely to
occur.
*****************************************************************
NACE MR01-75
*********
1)Equipment for Upstream
2) Often contain CO2,which causes low PH.
3) Often contain chlorides, which can cause chloride-ion stress
corrosion cracking.
4) The presence of brine or saltwater introduces the additional
issue of Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC).
5)Test Method NACE TM 0284
*****************************************************************
NACE MR01-03
**************
1)Equipment for Downstream processes unit.
2)Often contain dissolved ammonia.
3)Often contain cyanides.
4)Seldom contain chlorides of CO.
5))Other Sour services where no brine or salt water is present.
6)Test Method NACE TM0177
********************************************************************
Conclusion From Above
****
If H2S service with MR0103 mentioned in any Equipment Process Datasheet and MOC is
CS
Please Confirm from Process Dept./Li censor Whether the equipment is use for
downstream or upstream,availability of water (Wet /Dry H2S) in Process fluid and as well
Confirm SSC is required or HIC is required for CS Plate Material.It is cost and time related
matter.
********************************************************************
If anybody have different View Please share it.

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Like Follow Post Share April 30 at 2:04am


Purav Desai, Ramdas Kadam, Avinash Araj and 4 others like this.

2)

Arpita Shah
Is it necessary that if shell side liquid is sour service than tube side is also considered as a sour
service? B'coz client made a comment that tube outer side is contact with shell side sour fluid.
Like Unfollow Post Share May 1 at 12:26pm
2 people like this.

Hemant Solanki i think at least common elements MOC shall be selected as per stringent service..May 1 at 12:28pm Like

Arpita Shah MOC is same for shell side and tube side.May 1 at 12:32pm Like

Hemant Solanki Sour service requirements shall be followed for tubes and tubesheets (common elements)..May 1 at
12:33pm Like

Arpita Shah but shell side liquid is crude oil & tube side is LP steamMay 1 at 12:35pm Like

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Page 284 of 390

Mrudang Mehta Arpita.. I understand that both Ss and TS must be CS. But as Hemant pointed the MoC of Tubes, tube sheet
and shell ( where ever shell fluid is in touch) must follow NACE requirements.May 1 at 1:37pm via mobile Like

Patel Sudhir Yes tube is a wetted parts for the shell, hence it shall meet the NACE requirements.May 1 at 2:00pm Like

KevalGarud yes tube material should satisfy the sour service requirements.May 1 at 3:17pm Like 1

Arpita Shah thanks to all of you.May 1 at 4:11pm Like

3)

Mihir Jha
Dear All,

I am doing some horizontal vessel which is in sour service. The MOC is CS and is internally
lined with PHENOLIC EPOXY. As per KOC pressure vessel spec, Internal Surface shall be
protected from corrosion as per KOC standard " Cathodic Protection Of Internal Surfaces
of Steel Tanks & Vessels". My query is , do the vessel which is internally lined with
Phenolic Epoxy require Cathodic Protection?
Like Follow Post Share May 29 at 8:08am

Mrudang Mehta I understand that to take care of requirement of internal catholic protection, phenolic
epoxy lining is considered. Else internal catholic protection will call for sacrificial anodes which is mostly
avoided.
Hence I think if epoxy lining is considered, additional catholic protection should not be required. Still to
be sure, better to consult the Material Engg and confirm whether the Epoxy requirement was result of
catholic protection requirement or due to corrosive nature of service.May 29 at
9:39am via mobile Like 2

Purav Desai Partially agree with Mrudang Mehta. I think two points are getting mixed here.
Requirement of internal coating is defined by many licensors now days to cater to corrosion due to sour
environment (H2S service).

For cathodic protection, as its name says we have to protect the cathode but for cathode to corrode,
galvanic cell must form first and for this there must be presence of anode, cathode and electrolyte.
Anode and cathode can be two dissimilar materials; Electrolyte should be something from which
electrons (current) can flow. Commonly known electrolyte is Water. Hence, in this case it should be
checked whether there is water present in the process fluid, if yes then check is there any dissimilar

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Page 285 of 390

material in contact with water. If all these are present then only cathodic protection is required.

Also, sometime if the coating gets peeled off during operation then it can become local spot for
corrosion. However this should be taken care during application of internal coating i.e. application of
coating with newly developed techniques and coating type and thickness should be selected
accordingly. Refer below article by NACE which talks @ internal coating for protection of vessel.

http://www.nace-jubail.org/Meetings/HATCON%20Presentation.pdf...May 29 at 10:38am Like 4

Krishna Desai If vessel is subjected to very heavy corrosive service (Oil + gas + water), corrosion
allowance is required to take care of very high corrosion. Subsequently high corrosion allowance will
further increase weight and cost of equipment. So, licensor used to provide minimal corrosion
allowance (3 mm) + Internalcathodic protection to take care corrosion problem. However, cathodic
protection will not ensure protection of 100% surface of vessel. Since some of debris & dirt particals
will accumulate near to cathodic Nozzles and over the time cathodic protection system will become
ineffective. Hence it is better to have Corrosion allowance + Cathodic protection + internal
lining/coating specially for the main separation equipments where initial separation of crude oil will take
place &Hazardeous drain tanks, where very high corrosion is anticipated.May 29 at 10:59am Like 2

Krishna Desai In one of the current OFFSHORE project, main separators (1st stage, 2nd stage & test
separators) are having the same combinations of corrsion protectionMay 29 at 11:03am Like

Suraj Kr Tiwari If your vessel is of CS then you have to condider CP no matter water is there or nor.
There are to many othres reason also like chemical used during operating life for cleaning or CA
inhibitor can also play role of electrolyte. Refer your job spec for your project if they are using lining
means higher corrosion expected so u have to use CP. In some cases like tanks which prone to higher
corrosion we uses FRP AS TANK MOC BUT IN CASE OF PRESSURE VESSEL AS TOLD BY
krishnadesai.May 29 at 2:04pm via mobile Like

Mrudang Mehta Krishna and Purav- completely agree with you guys. Nice replies. But I remember
somewhere that to avoid internal catholic protection, lining was provided. Anyways this is more of
Material Engg, and we need to follow Process Datasheet and Material Selection Report.May 29 at
2:06pm via mobile Like 1

AbijithKuruvath Refer to cathodic protection requirement spec of KOC for applicability of CP!...May
29 at 7:01pm via mobile Like

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Viral Patel Agree with mrudangmehta, krishnadesai&puravdesai.

Though cathodic protection is not reqd... but client specs should be followedMay 29 at
7:01pm via mobile Like

4)

Susan Shrestha
what is suitable duplex bolting material for flange SA182F51?
Like Follow Post Share June 26 at 10:14pm via mobile
Prashant Purkar likes this.

Prabhakar Harikrishnan You can go for B7 or B7M.June 26 at 10:44pm Like

Susan Shrestha do u have any reference for duplex booting.June 26 at 10:49pm via mobile Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan As such there is no Bolting in Duplex. If we are using, Duplex Flange, SS
would be sufficient. It can be either B8 or B8M. What could be the reason you wanted Duplex Bolting.
Is that you use Duplex Flange or site requirement??...June 26 at 10:51pm Like

Veera Mani if u want duplex bolt.we can use machined bolt .machined from duplex rod or forging
.June 26 at 11:52pm via mobile Like

RanaprioSarkar SA 479June 27 at 6:07pm Like

5)

KewalKareliya
hello guys I want know to meaning behind material number in ASME eg. SA 105 where S
stand for ASME. A stand for ASTM what does 105 means ??y 105.
pls share if any one have info...
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Hemant Solanki Have a note that it is specification number not material number.
You rightly mentioned that S stand for ASME. A stand for ASTM.

ASME materials specifications are currently based on ASTM materials specifications that have been
reviewed and approved by the various Code committees as being suitable for Code construction.
Suitability is generally determined by a set of chemical composition requirements and well defined
mechanical property requirements. When such specifications are not suitable, there is obvious
pressure for ASTM to make the necessary changes to make their standards more acceptable. This
close association between ASTM and the ASME Code has been going on since the 1920s or about 75
years.

The Foreword to the various Code sections also contains information relative to the evolution of
ASME materials specifications. Excerpts follow:
Revisions to material specifications are originated by the American Society for
Testing and Materials (ASTM) and other recognized national or international
organizations, and are usually adopted by ASME. However, those revisions may or
may not have any effect on the suitability of material, produced to earlier editions of
specifications, for use in ASME construction.

So it is ASTM who decides this specifications number.


We should check in ASTM standards in detail for this specification.June 26 at 3:15pm Like

Hemant Solanki One more information I found is earlier SA 105 was identifying as S-8.
The S-number procedure for identifying Section II materials was replaced in the 1943 edition with a
direct reference to the ASTM Specifications. The S-designation system was maintained, but an ASTM
Specification number was added after the S. S-8, for instance, was revised to SA-105, which was the
ASTM Specification that was the basis for S-8
This method was used for all ferrous materials . For nonferrous materials, the S-number was replaced
with an SB before the ASTM B-number. In the 1945 addenda, all materials were listed by an SA- or SB-
number..June 26 at 3:57pm Like

Umesh Wani It's a manufacturing process no. as per ASTMJune 26 at 5:42pm via mobile Like

KewalKareliya thnx a lot guys...June 26 at 5:56pm Like

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran In SA, A stands for ferrous and when you see B next to S in the
specification then it means it is non ferrous.June 28 at 2:29am Like

Arpita Shah
Hello everyone,
Please tell me the forging material as per ASME for 70/30-Cu-Ni composition.

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Like Follow Post Share June 26 at 5:00pm via mobile


Purav Desai For which component you would like to use it? The available material in ASME code is SB
283 C71520.June 26 at 5:13pm Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Normally, we don't use NF forgings, since they do not withstand Pressure
and temperature during Continuous operations.. So, better you go for CS with 70/30 Weld overlay
only.June 26 at 5:25pm Like 2

Prabhakar Harikrishnan As far as i procured only available grade is SB 564..but, it is very very
expensive...June 26 at 5:29pm Like

Purav Desai SB 564 is nickel alloy forging not cu:ni. I also have simillar exp. as Prabhakar
Harikrishnan. Cu:Nimatl is mainly used in cooling water exchangers and for its tubesheeti always
applied SB 171.June 26 at 7:11pm via mobile Like 1

Arpita Shah I want to use for tubesheet and girth flage and due to small size of diameter weld overlay
may not be possible.June 26 at 10:21pm via mobile Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Weld overlay is possible till 4" dia.. Check with Vendor/Production. Im sure,
end user would not accept Solid NF forgings. Also, what Bolting you will use..? What ever available Bolt
you use, the Tensile and Hardness of Bolt will be Higher... So, you can not leak proof the Flange... the
More you Tight, the Flange will have distortion.June 26 at 10:40pm Like

Arpita Shah but can we get same moc weld overlay and what is the grade for pure material?...June
27 at 8:01am via mobile Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Yes.. With proper weld overlay procedure and electrodes you can very well
get the required composition. Right now I'm not sure of the grade of electrode. If you want i will check
with my quality for electrodes..June 27 at 1:00pm via mobile Like

Arpita Shah Can you tell me the electrode moc?...June 27 at 10:32pm via mobile Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Checked with my QA, For SMAW E2209..June 29 at


7:42pm via mobile Like

Arpita Shah
what is the meaning of micro alloy steel?
Like Unfollow Post Share July 19 at 5:31pm via mobile
NikunjBrahmbhatt Micro alloy steel is a type of alloy steel that contains small amounts of alloying
elements (0.05 to 0.15%). Standard alloying elements include: niobium, vanadium, titanium,
molybdenum,zirconium, boron, and rare-earth metals. They are used to refine the grain micro structure
and/or facilitate precipitation hardening. These steels lie, in terms of performance and cost, between
carbon steel and low alloy steel. Yield strength is between 500 and 750 MPa (73,000 and 109,000 psi)
without heat treatment.Weldability is good, and can even be improved by reducing carbon content
while maintaining strength. Fatigue life and wear resistance are superior to similar heat treated steels.
The disadvantages are that ductility and toughness are not as good as quenched and tempered (Q&T)
steels. They must also be heated hot enough for the all of the alloys to be in solution; after forming the
material must be quickly cooled to 540 to 600 C (1,004 to 1,112 F).

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Cold worked micro alloy steels do not require as much cold working to achieve the same strength as
other carbon steel; this also leads to greater ductility. Hot worked micro alloy steels can be used from
the air-cooled state. If controlled cooling is used, the material can produce mechanical properties
similar to Q&T steels. Machinability is better than Q&T steels because of their more uniform hardness
and their ferrite-pearlite microstructure. Because micro alloy steels are not quenched and tempered
they are not susceptible to quench cracking, nor do they need to be straightened or stress relieved.
However, because of this they are through hardened and do not have a softer and tougher core like
quench and tempered steels.
for more check uremail..July 19 at 5:53pm Like

Hemant Solanki Microalloyed steels: with very small additions (generally <0.10% each) of such
elements as niobium, vanadium, and/or titanium for refinement of grain size and/or precipitation
hardening.

High-strength carbon and low-alloy steels have yield strengths greater than 275 MPa (40 ksi) and can
be more or less divided into four classifications :
As-rolled carbon-manganese steels.
As-rolled high-strength low-alloy (HSLA) steels (which are also known as microalloyed steels).
Heat treated (normalized or quenched and tempered) carbon steels.
Heat treated low-alloy steels.July 19 at 6:28pm Like 1

Hemant Solanki
carbon steel bolts in stainless steel flanges ?

Look at ASME 16.5 Annex F Table 1B for recomended bolting. But, it should be a
Engineered Spec. for bolting material. 16.5 states as follows
"Criteria for the selection of materials are not within the scope of this Standard. The
possibility of material deterioration in service should be considered by the user."

This is from 2010 edition of ASME Section VIII-1 Paragraph UCS-11


(b) Materials for nuts and washers shall be selected as follows:
(1) Carbon steel nuts and carbon steel washers may be used with carbon steel bolts or
studs.
(2) Carbon or alloy steel nuts and carbon or alloy steel washers of approximately the same
hardness as the nuts may be used with alloy steel bolts or studs for metal temperatures
not exceeding 900F (480C).
(3) Alloy steel nuts shall be used with alloy steel studs or bolts for metal temperatures
exceeding 900F (480C). Washers, if used, shall be of alloy steel equivalent to the
nut material.
(4) Nonferrous nuts and washers may be used with ferrous bolts and studs provided they
are suitable for the application. Consideration shall be given to the differences in thermal
expansion and possible corrosion resulting from the combination of dissimilar metals.
Nonferrous nuts and washers shall conform to the requirements of UNF-13.

Poor selection is cause for catastrophe see link


below.http://www.nationalboard.org/index.a...eID=164&ID=226

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Although this is accident was specific to a valve bonnet, it could just as well apply to
flanged joints of any kind.

Speculating the Cause of the Incident


Ultimately, the cause of this catastrophic accident was the installation of nuts made of an
improper material for the job. These nuts were used on the bolts fastening the bonnet to
the valve's body.......................First, the mechanic wanted to replace the fasteners, but
he did not have any. He also did not speak English very well. Allegedly, the mechanic
asked one of the boiler room personnel for new nuts and bolts, and was given permission
to look through the boiler room's spare parts bins. He selected parts that he thought
would work................When the second turbine generator was started, this valve was
opened to allow for steam at 600 psi and 850 degrees F to pass. As this valve got hot, the
nuts were expanding at a much greater rate than the bolts, and they lost the strength to
contain the steam's force under the bonnet.
http://www.nationalboard.org/index.a...eID=164&ID=226
www.nationalboard.org

Like Unfollow Post Share July 21 at 11:46am


Arpita Shah, Purav Desai and EdgrdmDguzmn like this.

Pramod Kshirsagar
I am facing a problem of the material Tantalum, which is not listed in ASME Sec.IIB.
How to design a HE with Tantalum tubes?
Like Follow Post Share July 28 at 2:49pm
Purav Desai This material is not adopted by ASME and hence you will have to refer ASTM. ReferASTM
B 521.http://www.astm.org/Standards/B521.htmhttp://www.etltd.co.uk/tantalum-ta/tantalum-ta-tubes-
pipes.htmlJuly 28 at 6:18pm Like 2

Pramod Kshirsagar Thanks Purav DesaiJuly 29 at 12:02am Like

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Hemant Solanki
Material traceability and documentation

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Prabhakar Harikrishnan
Hi. There is a AES type HE running for several years. It is completely of CS MOC.
Now, client wants to upgrade to NF on shell side. The suggested MOC is CS+NF
clad on shell side. The problem is I can not design Floating Head Assembly with
NF and had suggested Client, with CS+NF Clad or WO only, with higher CA on
shell side for this assembly. I assume, this is the only way out. Is anyone with
better way out. It is similar to the problem Arpita Shah had for NF forgings
some days back. But, this is internal Flange.
Like Follow Post Share August 15 at 9:26am near Chennai, Tamil Nadu

Purav Desai Hi Prabhakar Harikrishnan, can u share what is shell side fluid?...August 15 at
1:38pm via mobile Like

Prabhakar Harikrishnan Shell side is water.August 15 at 2:09pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai As a thumb rule for allocation of fluid, water is kept on tubeside. This will have
advantage on material selection and it will be cost effective too. You can sugggest owner to rerate
exchanger considering water on tubeside. Otherwise go with higher non ferrous grade floating head
where forging is available such as hastelloy.August 15 at 3:00pm via mobile Like 1

KewalKareliya
hello guys need serious solution

vesel operating medium contains caustic,hic air

MOC mentioned in the mechanical data sheet is SA 516 Gr.60 , but dye nob
availability of one particular thicknesses I hve suggested my procurement to
buy Gr.70 instead of Gr. 60 for 1 shell course only.
Now tpi has rejected the grade material Gr.70

what shall I do noww, plss suggests


Like Unfollow Post Share August 1 at 11:35pm via mobile

Tejas Shah likes this.

Hemant Solanki Dual certify SA516-70 as SA516-60. Submit dual certification to inspector. Refer UG-
10. even though u hv procured SA516-70 but in thickness calculation use SA516-60 allowable stresses.
Represent the same to inspector to prove that min thickness requirement of SA516-60 is followed. And
material is dual certified with both gradesAugust 1 at 11:52pm Like 1

NirajPandya What is the application of vessel? is it for low or High temp. ?..August 2 at 8:12am Like

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NirajPandya Gr 60 - High temp Coarse grain and Gr 70 Low temp FIne grain - so during dual
certification don't go for micro-structure with grain size -by looking grain size inspector may reject
thxAugust 2 at 8:14am Like

Tejas Shah Can we use grade 70 for hydrogen service,,,,,? con college raise his doubt that grade 70
can't use fr hydrogen service but he don't know actual reason,,, also can we use R.F pad fr nozzle in
hydrogen service ?...August 2 at 11:50am via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki Despite the attractive properties of carbon steels, these materials must be used
judiciously in structures exposed to hydrogen gas. Hydrogen gas degrades the tensile ductility of
carbon steels, particularly in the presence of stress concentrations. Additionally, hydrogen gas lowers
fracture toughness, and certain metallurgical conditions can render the steels susceptible to crack
extension under static loading. Hydrogen gas also accelerates fatigue crack growth, even at relatively
low hydrogen gas partial pressures, suggesting that small fractions of hydrogen in gas blends must be
considered in fatigue life assessments. The severity of these manifestations of hydrogen embrittlement
depends on mechanical, environmental, and material variables.
Variables that influence behavior in hydrogen gas include loading rate, load cycle frequency, gas
pressure, gas composition, and the presence of welds. Control over these variables may allow carbon
steels to be applied safely in hydrogen gas environments. For example, limiting the magnitude and
frequency of load cycling can improve the compatibility of carbon steels with hydrogen gas.

SA 516-60 is a preferred choice when the equipment is in sour/ Hydrogen service, requiring HIC/ SSC
test etc.

It is also a preferred choice when MDMT is nearing limiting sub-zero temperature for CS.

SA 516-60 is a softer material than grade SA516-70 and exhibits better properties for cracking
resistance and impact. Its a preference to use SA 516-60 since most of the time grade 70 also qualify
all these requirements but risk of failure is more as compare to grade 60.

As far as RF pad is concerned. It shall not be provided to avoid entrainment of any aqueous hydrogen
in between pad and shell due to inadequate weld done between nozzle to shell junction. So to be on
safer side it is advisable to avoid pad type nozzleAugust 2 at 12:49pm Like 2

Tejas Shah In one job saipem already mention rf pad fr nozzle in datasheet for such service and thats
create doubt thats why asked here..August 2 at 1:14pm via mobile Edited Like

KewalKareliya thnz for yr reply give also would like to share important info for all the people
currently or infuture delaying with eilpleqse note EIL has made policy in which when caustic service is
present Gr. 70 cannot be used becaused they had face a problm of increase in hardness in longer run..i
tried by best but did not succeed for acceptance of Gr. 70 now procuring new plate of. Gr.60..August
4 at 7:46pm via mobile Like

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Hemant Solanki
Major difference of B7& B7M - Post from Material Engineering google Group

Dear All
What are differences between B7,B7M ?(except as torque value, yield strength)
In our specification usage of B7M confined under insulation. why ?
When we can B7 replaced by B7M with regard to service condition ? or is it possible with regard to
dissimilar strength ?

Answer :
Your specification calls the requirement for B7M to avoid the corrosion under insulation. B7M
bolting is often opted for in corrosive environments due to its heat treatment & hardness.

B7 bolting also can be used if it is used for non-exposed to corrosive environment which means we
can substitute the B7 bolting with B7M for corrosive environment.
Like Unfollow Post August 29 at 11:11am via Email

Kiran Gawade and 2 others like this.

Selva Raj
Hi friends,

I need one clarification.

In one of the client data sheet, pressure vessel construction code is given as PD 5500 and MOC of
vessel is specified as DIN Materials.

In this case, can we propose ASME Material, equivalent to DIN material with PD 5500 Design code.

Please provide your views.

Like Follow Post September 11 at 12:16pm via mobile

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Martin Prabu before proceeding to Detail EngineeringSeptember 11 at 12:48pm Like 2

Hemant Pradhan While selecting ASME equivalent material to DIN, besides ensuring equivalent or better mechanical properties
please also check about chemical composition, heat treatment, carbon equivalent etc. since DIN materials at times can have
typical alloying for the desired properties. As Martin says ensure that you have client approval.September 12 at
12:50am Like 1

Hemant Solanki
Environmentally Induced Cracking in Deaerator

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Like Unfollow Post September 12 at 10:14am

Selva Raj likes this.

Purav Desai NACE SP 0590 can also be referred for cracking mechanism in deaerator.September 12 at 3:30pm via mobile Like

Ajit Managoli PWHT is very essential for deaerators. NACE has a study report on this issue.September 12 at
3:36pm via mobile Like

Kewal Kareliya
hi guya can any tell me when NACE & HIC is selected. main differnce for selection of NACE amd
HIC.
pls share..i have very less exposure for ds MOC so share as much info qs possible...
Like Unfollow Post September 12 at 8:00pm via mobile

Purav Desai The basic difference is NACE is a body under which many standards have been issued on corrosion problems.

HIC is a type of cracking mechanism under which material fails.

There are two NACE standards for the same; NACE MR0103 and NACE MR 0175.

MR0103 is for refinery and down stream facility whereas MR0175 is for upstream oil production unit.

So now u can select applicability of each standard as per the project u r handling.

So material is generally HIC tested but as NACE std calls for ita requirements, often people term that material shall be NACE
certified.

For HIC, main criteria should be controlled hardness in weld zone and HAZ. Other should be control of chemical composition
I.e. minimize non metallic incusions. And then tests are carried out to chk CLR, CTR and CSR. You can refer these terms in
NACE TM0472.September 12 at 9:15pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai The correct standard is NACE SP0472 and NACE TM0284September 12 at 9:20pm via mobile Like

Kewal Kareliya thanx guys some times MDS specify as follows NACE MR0103 ,hic resistance so here we have buy nace material
or HIC material ( service is sour or some times sour n lethal both)September 13 at 6:26pm via mobile Like

Kewal Kareliya referring to my above query also note one MDS I came across mentioned NACE MR0103 WITH HIC RESISTANCE
MR 0175 so ds case we have selected NACE material...Is it correctSeptember 13 at 6:30pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Refer the foreword of NACE MR 0103 which clearly states that HIC, SOHIC are not covered by standard. Further
Sour Service is a generalized term which covers variety of corrosive environment. So before applying any requirements to
material or before buying material a correct corrosion mechanism shall be known.September 13 at 6:57pm Like

Purav Desai If both the NACE standards(0103 & 0175) applies, that will be very interesting case. Can you share what is the
equipment you are handling, its service (name), which process unit it belongs to?...September 13 at 7:00pm Like

Kewal Kareliya @ purav pls carify if HIC resistance is mentioned than..September 13 at 7:00pm via mobile Like

Kewal Kareliya it is stripper for FCC unit of kochi refinerySeptember 13 at 7:02pm via mobile Like

Kewal Kareliya I have three columns i.e depropanizer,debutanizer n stripper.September 13 at 7:04pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai if HIC resistance is mentioned then follow all material requirements of NACE MR 0175 & testing requirements of
NACE TM 0284.September 13 at 7:06pm Like

Kewal Kareliya ok than I have to procure NACE material or HIC materialSeptember 13 at 7:09pm via mobile Like

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Purav Desai It cant be said as one of those. If you ask me I would rather specify it as "Material to satisfy chemical composition
of NACE MR0175 and HIC testing requirements of NACE TM0284." Hope this helps.September 13 at 7:13pm Edited Like

Kewal Kareliya I will post my mds tomorrow hope than u can suggest better after that but really thnx for d info...share if more
details u recollect if any as my procurement is already in processSeptember 13 at 7:16pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai As per my experience, Mill makers have enough experience to make HIC resistant material however that cannot be
taken for granted. That's why If I would be in your position, I would have specified requirements in requisition as I mentioned
earlier. If you read scope of MR0175, it is very clearly mentioned that it covers material requirements for HIC. People keep
saying NACE resistance material because before 2003 there was only one NACE standard. In 2003 NACE MR0103 was published
and clear categorization has been made between Upstream and Downstream units.September 13 at 7:24pm Like

Kewal Kareliya I am.technical specifications sheet I have mentioned in the similar manner as mentioned in my MDS.but still I
dont have the clarity hence I posted here for my query ..i will once again go throw all d code n specification..September 13 at
7:39pm via mobile Like

Purav Desai Thanks for posting your query. Its indeed my pleasure to discuss such topics here.. Keep Posting, keep sharing and
keep learning...September 13 at 7:40pm Like

Hemant Solanki Pressure Vessel Steels for use in refinery environments that are subject to certain operating conditions can be
susceptible to hydrogen assisted cracking. this cracking can come in the form of blistering on the surface, step wise cracking
through the thickness (HIC) or sulfide stress cracking (SSC). More recently there has been attention to a phenomenon termed
stress oriented hydrogen induced cracking (SOHIC). Blistering and HIC cracking can occur without the presence of external
stresses, while SSC and SOHIC require the combination of hydrogen activity in the presence of external stresses.
To meet HIC testing requirements, it is imperative to have very clean steels with low inclusion contents. All HIC tested steels
shall have sulfur levels to 0.002% or less and employs calcium treatment for inclusion shape control. maximum level of
phosphorous and oxygen may also be accepted.
Besides cleanliness, heat treating found to be very important in attaining satisfactory results with HIC tests. Both Normalizing
and Q&T heat treatments are available abd help to meet other properties as well.
The use of HIC tested steels is one approach used in dealing with potential sour service applications. other approaches
depending on the anticipated severity of the sour environment include the use of stainless or stainless clad steels. where less
severe conditions are expected, use of simply lower sulfur steels with restrictive CE and prohibition against the use of micro
alloys may suffice. A more detailed review on this subject is contained in NACE Publication 8X194 (Materials and Fabrication
Practices for New Pressure Vessels Used in Wet H2S Refinery Service).
Applicable NACE documents besides TM0284 and 8X194 includes ISO15156/MR0175 which is some times cited as a
specification to be invoked when assuarance from hydrogen assisted cracking is required. however this standard applies to
oilfield equipment and for carbon steel, adds little or nothing in the way of special controls commonly associated with HIC
resistance steel. More appropraite for refining application is NACE MR0103. However even this by itself does not guarantee
thaat steel meeting its general requirements is immune from environmental damage from SSC. to evaluate susceptibility for
SSC, ASTM G39 (Preparation and use of bent beam stress corrosion test specimens); the four point bent beam test, and NACE
TM0177 Method A (NACE Tensile Test) are sometimes called out, though traditionally these are used to evaluate steels much
higher in strength than A516.
Another perceived control for steels in sour service involves the application of ASTM E1268 (Standard Practice for assessing the
degree of banding or orientation of microstructures). this is a metallographic procedure for determining what is loosely
referenced as a'banding index'(AI), and has recently been associated with steels for sour service.
Another recent test recognized more for its ability to screen classes of material more than for production testing is NACE
TM0103 (Laboratory test procedure for evaluation of SOHIC resistance of plate steels used in wet H2S service).22 hours
ago Like

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Hemant Solanki
ELECTRIC RESISTANCE WELDED (ERW) MATERIALS

When the Code first accepted tubes and pipes formed of electric resistance welded (ERW)
materials, it imposed a 15% penalty on allowable stress, except for tubes within the boiler setting
whose design temperature was 850F (455C) or lower. There was apparently some doubt about
the welding, and the use of the normal allowable stress was permitted only for tubes inside the
protective barrier of the setting. Because of the good service record of these tubes in recent years,
some thought is being given to removing the penalty on ERW tubes. As a first step in this
direction, in 1988, several Code Cases were passed (CC 2041, 1942, 1996, 1984, and 2026)
permitting the use of ERW tubes within the allowed design temperature range without the 15%
reduction in allowable stress, if they meet three conditions: the tubes are given extra
nondestructive examination (angle beam ultrasonic inspection and an electric test in accordance
with ASME specification SA-450), the tubes are no larger than 3 in. (89 mm) OD, and the tubes
are enclosed within the setting.
Code users often wonder just what the term "within the setting" means, since this term is not
defined in ASME Sections. Various books on boiler construction typically define the setting as the
construction surrounding either the boiler or the tubes, or both: refractory, insulation, casing,
lagging, or some combination of these. In former years, with heavy casing and refractory, it could
be argued that a failed tube would not represent much of a danger to someone standing nearby.
As simpler and lighter construction has evolved, there may be only insulation and relatively thin
lagging outside the tubes or enclosing a header. Although such construction may not provide as
strong a barrier as formerly, it is the industry's position, accepted by the Authorized Inspectors,
that the tubes are still "enclosed within the setting," and if they meet the other provisions of the
Code cases cited, they would be entitled to the full allowable stress without the 15% penalty of
former years. That penalty was, in effect, a vote of no confidence in the electric resistance weld
and/or the inspection of the weld.
Any grease or other contamination of the surfaces to be welded has the potential for preventing a
sound weld, and careful inspection has always been important in assuring that any bad welds will
be found. However, the 15% penalty was always an arbitrary one. If the weld were truly bad, it
would leak.. Lowering the stress by 15% would not really help. There has now been quite a lot of
good experience with ERW tubes, and the additional NDE called for in the Code Cases should,
henceforth, provide some further assurance that any bad welds will be detected. After extensive
satisfactory use, the provisions of the above noted Code Cases have been incorporated into ASME
Sections.

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Hemant Solanki
FINDING AND USING DESIGN STRESSES IN SECTION II, PART D

The designer must determine which stress line for a particular material pertains to Section I (or
one of the
other Sections) by referring to the second page of the four pages of information under four
columns designated
"Applicability and Maximum Temperature Limits." There is one column for Section I, one for
Section
III, one for Section VIII, Division 1, and one for Section XII. Only if there is a maximum use
temperature
listed in one of these columns may the material be used for construction covered by that section of
the Code.
Otherwise, the letters NP appear, meaning not permitted. This has led to a number of problems.
In Chapter 11,
under Standard Pressure Parts, it is explained that such parts (covered in PG-11) which comply
with any
ASME product standard accepted by reference in PG-42 may be made of any material listed in that
standard,
"but not of materials specifically prohibited, or beyond the use limitations of this Section."
Section I does have some constraints on the use of various materials, but it has no outright
prohibitions
against the use of any specific materials. For example, footnote 1 of PG-5.5 cautions that
austenitic stainless
steels are not to be used for boiler pressure parts that are water-wetted in normal service,
although
there are exceptions to this rule. The expression "beyond the use limitations of this Section"
pertains to
temperature limitations. One is the maximum design temperature for any given material, now
established
by the highest temperature at which a stress value for Section I use is listed in Section II, Part D.
Materials
such as cast iron and bronze have relatively low temperature limits, which are stipulated in PG-8
and
PG-9.
Therein lies a problem because there are many materials listed in the ASME
product standards accepted by Section I by reference in PG-42 that had never been listed in the
Section I
stress tables. No Authorized Inspector had previously challenged the use of those materials in
these ASME
product standards because their use was (and is) explicitly sanctioned by PG- 11. However, a
problem arose
once the designation NP appeared in Part D. One of the authors' companies found itself facing the
following
situation: It had designed and subcontracted to another stamp holder the fabrication of an

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austenitic stainless
steel superheater whose return bends were purchased as standard elbows made in accordance
with ANSI
B16.9 (now ASME B16.9), Factory-Made Wrought Steel Buttwelding Fittings. The manufacture of
B16.9
elbows starts with pipe or tube made from a material that is designated only by class and grade
(e.g., WP
304) and that meets the chemical and tensile requirements of SA-403, Specification for Wrought
Austenitic
Stainless Steel Pipe Fittings. When the elbow is completed in accordance with the provisions of SA-
403 and
ASME B16.9, it is given a new material designation, A-403 or SA-403, as a fitting. Unfortunately,
Section
I had never listed that material, but it had been listed in Section VIII. Accordingly, the Section II,
Part D
column for Section I applicability listed SA-403 as NP, not permitted; it was apparently permitted
only for
Section VIII construction.
The AI at the fabricator saw that listing and proclaimed that the elbows could not be used in
Section I construction,
stopping fabrication on a contract with heavy daily penalties for late completion. Fortunately, the
Authorized Inspection Agency providing the AI at the job site had knowledgeable Code committee
members
who quickly agreed that the designation NP should not apply in these circumstances, or rather,
should not
mean NP if PG-11 provides otherwise. Section I subsequently issued Interpretation I-92-97, which
solved the
problem for these particular fittings, but did nothing about the generic problem of the potentially
misleading
designation Not Permitted in Section II, Part D. An attempt to have BPV II modify the NP
designation with a
note referring to PG-l1 proved unavailing, so the unwary designer faces a potential trap in a
situation similar
to the one just described.
Interpretation I-92-97 is as follows:
Question: May SA-403 austenitic fittings made to ASME/ANSI standards accepted by reference
in PG-42 be used for Section I steam service?
Reply: Yes.

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Hemant Solanki
HOW MATERIAL IS ORDERED

Material is a fundamental link in the chain of ASME Code construction, and great care is taken to
assure its quality. The ASME accomplishes this by adopting material specifications that have been
developed and adopted first by the American Society for Testing and Materials, the ASTM. The
ASME material specifications are thus usually identical to those of the ASTM. ASTM issues
specifications designated by letter and number, for example, A-106, Seamless Carbon Steel Pipe
for High Temperature Service. When the ASME adopts ASTM specifications, it adds the letter S.
The equivalent ASME pipe specification is thus SA-106.
In keeping with the ASME's policy to internationalize its Code, ASME has adopted a number of
foreign material specifications. These are included in Section II, Part A as a single cover sheet for
each specification (a complete material specification has not been reproduced in Section II, Part A,
as is done for the ASTM material specifications). For example, Section I permits the use of SA/AS
1548, Steel Plates for Pressure Vessel Equipment, an Australian Standard Material Specification. If
a boiler manufacturer chooses to use one of the permitted foreign material specifications in the
construction of his Section I component, then he will be obliged to obtain a copy of the relevant
material specification. The ASME or SA material specifications are used as purchase specifications.
Each specification contains a variety of information appropriate to that product, dealing with how it
is ordered, the manufacturing process, heat treatment, surface condition, chemical composition
requirements, tensile requirements, hardness
requirements, various test requirements, and how the material is to be marked. The purchaser can
also specify nonmandatory supplementary requirements, dealing with such things as stress
relieving, nondestructive examination, and additional testing. All of these requirements have
evolved over the years in response to the needs of the users.
The purchaser orders by specification number, and the supplier certifies that the material complies
with that specification. In most cases, furnished with the material are material test reports that
provide the results of various tests required by the specification.

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Hemant Solanki
USING SECTION II

Section II of the ASME Code contains information on materials. It is a four-part compendium of


materials
data, almost a foot thick in its entirety. The four volumes are as follows:
Part A-Ferrous Material Specifications
Part B-Nonferrous Material Specifications
Part C-Specification for Welding Rods, Electrodes, and Filler Metals
Part D-Properties
Parts A, B, and C are, as their names indicate, a compendium of ASME material specifications for
all
the pressure vessel and welding materials permitted for use in Code construction by Sections I, III,
IV,
VIII, and XII. It is important to remember that not every material listed in Section II can be used
in Section
I construction. In general, only materials listed in the material paragraphs of Section I, i.e., PG-5
through
PG-14 and PW-5, may be used for Section I pressure-retaining parts. PG-11 also permits the use
of most
materials listed in the ASME standards recognized by Section I in PG-42, such as the ASME
standard Pipe
Flanges and Flanged Fittings, B 16.5. Materials not otherwise listed for Section I service may also
be used
if they are listed in a Section I Code Case (see Code Cases in Appendix II).. Section I also sets
temperature
limits for the use of the various materials. They must be used within the temperature range for
which allowable
stress values are tabulated in Section II, Part D, Properties. The maximum temperature listed for
Section I use is 1650F (900C), for high alloy steels used in superheaters.
With the publication of the 1992 edition of the Code, the allowable stresses that were in Table PG-
23
of the earlier editions of Section I were transferred to Section II, Part D, a thick volume subtitled
Properties.
The allowable stresses from Section I and those from Sections III and VIII were consolidated and
reformatted into this single volume. This consolidation facilitates uniformity among those Code
sections
that use the same criteria for establishing allowable stress. (Note that some sections, e.g., Section
VIII,
Division 2, use different criteria, which generally result in higher allowable stresses than those of
Sections
I and VIII, Division 1. Conversely, Section IV, Heating Boilers, uses lower stresses, in part to make
up for the fact that less nondestructive examination is used in the construction of these relatively
lowpressure
boilers.) The allowable stresses for ferrous materials used in Section I construction are listed as

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a function of temperature in Table lA of Section II, Part D. Allowable stresses for copper, copper
alloys,
nickel, and nickel alloys are listed in Table 1B. These Part D tables have many important footnotes
covering
conditions of use, footnotes that formerly appeared with the separate stress tables in the various
book sections.

Section II, Part D is organized into subparts covering stress tables, physical-property tables, and
external
pressure charts. Also included are a number of mandatory appendices. Two appendices describe
the bases for
establishing the allowable stress and allowable design stress intensity values (the latter are used in
the design
of Class 1 nuclear power plant components). Another describes how charts for external-pressure
design are
established and what criteria are used to determine allowable compressive stresses when
designing for external
pressure. Other mandatory appendices explains the means by which a new material can be
approved
for Code use; preparation of Technical Inquiries to the Boiler and Pressure Vessel Committee,
Guideline for
Multiple Marking of Material, and Standard Units for Use in Equations. In addition, there are two
nonmandatory
appendices covering: A. Metallurgical Phenomena and B. Guidance for use of U.S. Customary and
SI
Units in the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code.

A useful feature of Section II, Part D is the physical-property tables. They provide such information
as the
coefficient of thermal expansion, thermal conductivity, thermal diffusivity, modulus of elasticity,
Poisson's
ratio, modulus of rigidity, density, melting-point range, and specific heat for a fairly large variety of
materials.
Much of this information is provided over a large temperature range. Also included are tables of
yield and
ultimate tensile strength as a function of temperature. Modulus of elasticity at design temperature
is used in
the design calculations of PFT-51 for cylindrical furnaces and tubes under external pressure. Yield
strength
at test temperature is used in the design calculations of the boiler components for the hydrostatic
test requirements
of PG-99.1.

Finding the allowable stress for a particular material can sometimes be difficult if one is not
familiar with

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the material stress tables in Section II, Part D, Properties. It is difficult to find a particular material
specification
because there are so many, and they are not listed in numerical order. Instead, they are listed by
some not
readily apparent rules having to do with increasing content of certain alloying elements. The listing
is based
on the sorting order the committee used. The sorting order for materials differs between the
tables for ferrous
materials (SA specifications) and nonferrous materials (SB specifications). The five-level sorting
sequence
for ferrous materials is as follows:
1. Nominal composition (more on this below)
2. Tensile strength
3. Yield strength
4. Specification number
5. Grade or type

While this seems simple enough, establishing a rule to sort materials in an ascending order of
nominal
composition is difficult; no single rule works universally, so several arbitrary choices were made.
Ferrous
materials were listed in the following order of nominal composition:
1. Carbon steels; C, C-Si, C-Mn, and C-Mn-Si steels.
2. Microalloy carbon steels; C-steels with Cb, V, and Ti added.
3. Low alloy steels (C-1/2 Mo, followed by Cr-xx-where xx represents a second element such
as Mo, Ni, W, Ti, etc. - ordered on the basis of increasing Cr to 9Cr-1Mo-V).
4. High alloy ferritic, martensitic, and duplex stainless steel ordered by increasing Cr content,
beginning at 11Cr-Ti and finishing at 29Cr-4Ni-Ti. Within the same Cr content, a second
sort on the second element, e.g., Ni or Mo, was performed. Within this group, the second
element never exceeds 4%.
5. A hard-to-categorize group of low alloy ferritics that have Mn and Si identified in their nominal
compositions, beginning with Mn-1/4Mo and ending in 1 1/2Si-1/2Mo.
6. Nickel alloy steels ordered according to nickel compositions beginning with 1/2Ni-1/2Cr-
1/4Mo-V and ending with 28Ni-19Cr-Cu-Mo.
7. The Cr-Mn and Cr-Ni austenitic (and perhaps some duplex) stainless steels beginning with
16Cr-9Mn-2Ni-N and ending with 25Cr-22Ni-2Mo-N, sorted by increasing Cr content and,
within the same Cr content, increasing second element (e.g., Ni) content. In general, this sort
on second-element content within the same major-element content applies to the previous
categories, i.e., 2 through 6 above.

For the nonferrous materials, the order of the sort is as follows:


1. Alloy/UNS number (alpha-numeric)
2. Tensile strength
3. Yield strength
4. Class/condition/temper

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5. Specification number

It is thus apparent that unless a designer knows the nominal composition of a material or its UNS
number, he or she will have some difficulty in finding that material in the tables of Part D.
However,
there are a number of reference books that can help. One of these is the CASTI Guidebook to
ASME
Section II, B31.1 & B31.3 Materials Index (Tenth Edition), by R.A. Moen, which lists and cross-
indexes
a great deal of useful information about Section II, such as nominal material compositions,
material
properties, and which materials are permitted for use in the various book sections. Another useful
book
is Metals and Alloys in the Unified Numbering System, which lists and cross-indexes materials of
chemically
similar specifications. The Unified Numbering System for Metals and Alloys (UNS) provides a
means of correlating many nationally used metal and alloy numbering systems currently
administered
by societies, trade associations, and individual users and producers of metals and alloys. A UNS
designation
is not, in itself, a specification, since it is based on chemical composition and establishes no
limits for form, condition, property, or quality. It is rather a unified identifier of a metal or alloy for
which controlling limits have been established in specifications published elsewhere, by ASME,
ASTM,
SAE, and others.
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Hemant Solanki
USE OF NON-ASME MATERIAL SPECIFICATIONS AND MATERIAL

Both Sections I and VIII, Division 1 have long had provisions (PG-10 and UG-10) dealing with the
acceptance
of material made to specifications not permitted by Section I or Section VIII (which could, for
example,
be an ASME specification or a foreign material specification) and with the acceptance of material of
any kind
that is not fully identified. In 1987, these provisions were expanded to provide more guidance on
what must
be done, and who may do it, when a material is requalified as the equivalent of an acceptable
ASME material.
The recertification or requalification process differs, depending on which of two categories of
organization is
doing the recertifying and whether the material is fully identified with a complete certification from
the material
manufacturer. The first category of organizations comprises only boiler or boiler-parts
manufacturers.
The second category comprises any other organizations. When PG-10 and UG-10 were revised in
1987, the
burden of proof that a given material was the equivalent of a material acceptable to Section I (or
Section VIII)
was made greater for organizations that were not either boiler or boiler-parts manufacturers, for
two reasons.
These other organizations were often material warehouses that bought material from material
manufacturers
and resold it to users. Under the less stringent pre-1987 recertification rules, these organizations
were,
in many cases, found to be recertifying materials as the equivalent of other materials so that they
could sell
material they had in stock even if full equivalency of all details of manufacture, chemistry, and
mechanical
properties could not be shown. Accordingly, the rules for those organizations were made more
stringent.
Boiler and boiler-parts manufacturers were allowed a lower burden of proof because they had
more to lose if
the recertified material turned out to be less than satisfactory; it was they, after all, who were
taking design
responsibility for either the boiler or the parts, or both.
Once a material has been established as the equivalent of an acceptable specification, it may be
marked as
required by that specification.
With the increasing emphasis on global competition, the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel
Committee has

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sought ways in which to gain wider international acceptance of ASME Code construction. This is a
two-way
street, and the ASME recognizes the need to remove unnecessary barriers to the use of ASME
construction,
in the hope that other countries will reciprocate. One of these barriers was ASME's previous
insistence that
only ASME or ASTM materials could be used in ASME construction. Recognizing the many areas of
the
world where economic constraints or local rules may necessitate the use of non-ASME materials,
the ASME
relaxed its policy, and in 1997, Section II approved the first two foreign material specifications for
inclusion
in the 1998 Addenda. Those specifications covered a Canadian structural steel, CSA-G40.21, and a
European
carbon steel plate, EN 10028-2. It happens that these two materials are very similar to two
existing ASME
materials, SA-36, a structural steel, and SA-516 Grade 65, a common material used for pressure
vessels.
With the publication of the 2010 Edition, ASME has adopted a total of eight (8) foreign
specifications from
Australia, Canada, China, Europe, and Japan. These specifications include a total of 18 materials,
of which
eleven (11) are permitted for Section I construction.

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Hemant Solanki
CS Graphitization

Graphitization, a type of microstructural deterioration that occurs in carbon and carbon-


molybdenum steels from the decomposition of iron carbide into ferrite and graphite. This
decomposition is a time and temperature-dependent relationship that begins to become significant
only after long service at temperatures above about 840F (450C) (it occurs more quickly at
higher temperatures). Graphitization can severely affect the strength and ductility of these steels,
particularly the heat-affected zone of welds, where the graphite usually lines up as chain graphite.
Note G10 in the allowable stress table (Table 1A of Section II, Part D) cautions: "Upon prolonged
exposure to temperatures above 800F, the carbide phase of carbon steel may be converted to
graphite." Some members of BPV I are in favour of prohibiting any use of carbon steels above
800F (425C), but others think this is not necessary, that the designers should be allowed to use
their own judgment. They note also that even with a design temperature slightly above 800F
(425C), the components are likely to be operating at 800F (425C) or lower and that
graphitization is not a significant problem at these relatively low temperatures, especially if
excursions over 800F (425C) are infrequent and of short duration.

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Hemant Solanki
STRENGTH OF MATERIALS AFTER FABRICATION

The fabrication of material into boiler components may involve all sorts of hot or cold metal
working, such
as bending, rolling, forging, flaring, or swaging. Heat treatment such as solution annealing or
postweld heat
treatment may be employed following various forming and fabrication operations. As a
consequence, the
as received mechanical properties of the material, such as yield strength, hardness, or ductility,
may have
changed. Typically, the ASME material specifications have been developed to provide material
suitable for
the various operations involved in boiler or pressure vessel manufacture, and the change in
material
properties presents no problem, especially for experienced manufacturers who know what,
if any, intermediate or postfabrication heat treatment may be appropriate. Occasionally, a dispute
arises about the strength or other
properties of a material after it has been fabricated into components of a boiler. A purchaser may
have the
mistaken idea that the properties of the material after fabrication must match its properties in the
as-received
condition, when it met the specification requirements. Section I has issued several interpretations
to correct
this misapprehension.
interpretation dealing with postfabrication strength of materials is I-83-01, Hardness of Swaged
Portion of Boiler Tubes:
Question: Is it required that carbon steel tubes such as SA-210 A-1 which have undergone
fabrication
operations by the boiler manufacturer meet the maximum hardness specified in the specifications?
Reply: No. The maximum hardness specified in the Section II material specification is one of a
number of requirements intended to ensure that the tubing furnished by the material
manufacturer
will withstand fabrication and installation requirements. Section I does not specify hardness
limits for the tubing as fabricated and installed in a boiler.
A last and more recent interpretation on this subject, I-95-03, was issued in response to an inquiry
about
chromized tubes:
Question: Do the materials listed in PG-9 for Section I construction have to comply with the
individual specification requirements after the manufacturer has performed fabrication on the
material?
Reply: No.

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Hemant Solanki
COLD FORMING OF AUSTENITIC MATERIALS

Appendix A370 of Section II, Part D states in part "Cold forming operations performed during
manufacturer of austinetic stainless steel pressure parts may cause impaired service performance
when the component operates in the creep range [above 1000F (540C)]. Heat treatment after
cold forming at a temperature given in the material specification will restore the intended
properties of the material and will minimize the threat of premature failure due to recrystallation
during the time of operation."

For this reason, Section VIII introduced UHA-44 COLD FORMING OF AUSTENITIC MATERIALS. For
cold-bending operations, Section VIII permits exemption from the postforming heat treatment
requirements when the forming strains are less than the proscribed maximum strain limits of Table
UHA-44.
UHA-44 includes the formulas for calculating the forming strain in cylinders, spherical or dished
heads, pipes and tubes. Table UHA-44 lists the austenitic materials permitted by Section VIII,
which may be subject to postforming heat treatment.

Early in 2010, BPV I received from a Manufacturer an inquiry regarding the heat treatment
requirements
for austenitic materials that had been heated during the forming operation. The following
interpretation was
developed and issued on this subject:
Question: If the finishing forming-temperature for austenitic stainless steels is above the minimum
heat-treating temperature given in Table PG-19, regardless of the amount of strain, do the
requirements of PG-19 apply?
Reply: No.
As explained to the inquirer, the rules of PG-19 or UHA-44 presume that the finishing-forming
temperature is below the
minimum heat-treatment temperature given in Table PG-19 or UHA-44.

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Hemant Solanki
DOES NEW MATERIAL GET OLD ?

The Foreword to all sections of the Code used to explain that revisions to the Code are issued as
yearly Addenda
on December 31. (However this changed to July 1, starting in 1998. See Effective Dates of the
Code
and Code Revisions in Chapter 2.) These revisions become mandatory six months later, except for
boilers and
pressure vessels contracted for prior to the end of the six-month period. However, the Foreword
has never
specifically addressed what must be done about revisions to the material specifications listed in
Section II.
These have traditionally been treated differently from revisions to the Code. As explained below,
ASME
now provides at the beginning of Parts A and B of Section II, GUIDELINE ON ACCEPTABLE ASTM
EDITIONS,
Table ED-1 (formerly called Appendix A) a list of all the materials approved for Code construction
and the book sections in which they are approved for use. The list shows the latest material
specifications
adopted by the ASME and the dates of earlier versions considered equivalent and acceptable,
going back in
some cases to 1980. There is also Table ED-2, GUIDELINE ON ACCEPTABLE NON-ASTM
EDITIONS,
covering foreign specifications that have been accepted by ASME. Thus, except for unusual
situations, manufacturers
can readily determine the acceptability of any particular material on hand.
The story of the development of Table ED-1 is instructive. Until the mid-1980s, it had generally
been
understood that old (but previously unused) material could be used in boiler and pressure vessel
construction.
That is, if a manufacturer happened to have in inventory a lot of SA-213 tubes or SA-515 plate
that had
been manufactured years earlier, the manufacturer could use those materials for construction
under the latest
edition of the Code.
Confirmation of this practice is seen in the declarations the manufacturer signs on the Data Report
Form,
for example, line five on the P-3 form, which defines the year edition of Section I to which the
boiler is constructed.
That line declares that the chemical and physical properties of all the parts meet the requirements
of
the ASME Code, but of no specified date of issue. Thus, the manufacturer is not required to list on
the Data
Report Form the date of the specifications covering the pressure part material. However, the

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manufacturer
does have to declare that the design, construction, and workmanship conform to a particular
edition and addenda
of Section I. Further confirmation of the above practice is found in a Section VIII interpretation
that
was issued on March 27, 1980, under the subject Material Usage under Section VIII, Division 1,
and UG-
84(b)(2), Item BC-251. One of the inquirer's questions was as follows:
Question: May material which is produced to any version of the Code be used so long as there
have not been any changes made to the specification except for editorial changes?
A key paragraph in the reply was this:
Specifications to editions or addenda earlier than those in effect at the time of vessel contract
may be used provided the requirements are identical (excluding editorial differences) or more
stringent for the grade, class, or type produced. Material produced to earlier specifications with
requirements different from the specification in effect at the time of the contract may also be used
provided the material manufacturer or vessel manufacturer certifies with evidence acceptable
to the Authorized Inspector that the requirements of the version in effect at the time of contract
will be met.
This was a reasonable policy, since material specifications change very slowly, and there is virtually
no
possibility that a material proven by years of satisfactory service would suddenly be found to be
unsafe.
At worst, allowable stresses at elevated temperature might be reduced, but the material itself
would still be
acceptable. Changes to material specifications are initiated by the American Society for Testing
and Materials
(ASTM) and are then usually adopted by ASME. Often, the changes are little more than an
updating
of some of the many other specifications and documents typically referenced in the material
specifications.
Occasionally, however, a new grade is added to a particular specification, or the yield strength of a
particular
grade may be increased slightly to make its properties and allowable stresses consistent with other
similar
alloys.
In the 1980s, a number of factors changed this situation. One of these was the development of
improved
technology, which allowed the major steel producers to produce cleaner steels with reduced
maximum permissible
phosphorous and sulfur content. In recognition of this advance, the ASTM reduced the maximum
permissible limits on phosphorous and sulfur from 0.050% and 0.060%, respectively, to 0.035%.
When the
ASME adopted those changes, the Committee realized that a great deal of heretofore perfectly
good material
was still in inventory at material manufacturers, pressure vessel equipment manufacturers, and

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other users
such as utilities. The prohibition of the further use of this material in inventory would have
represented a huge
economic penalty and could not be justified on the grounds of safety. Accordingly, the Committee
decided
that a gradual shift to the use of the new, cleaner steels would be appropriate and issued Code
Case 2053, For
Material in Inventory, Sections I, IV, and VIII, Divisions 1 and 2. The case permits continued use
of material
in inventory, as explained below.
Another important change that took place in the 1980s was the increasing use of imported steel.
The
principal source of steel for the large domestic integrated steel producers was blast-furnace
product derived
from raw ore. This yielded steel with a fairly consistent content of residual elements. For various
reasons, perhaps because of more variable ores or a greater use of scrap material, overseas steel
producers
sometimes produced steel with a much higher content of certain elements, called residual
elements, not
usually listed in the material specifications. These residual elements affect properties such as
weldability,
fracture toughness, and strength levels.
An example of the problems caused by residual elements occurred at one of the authors'
companies during
the welding of some pipe that was thought to be carbon steel. Unexpected cracks developed in the
welds, despite
the fact that all the normal welding procedures were used. After a careful check of the welding
variables
showed nothing amiss, a spectographic examination of the pipe material showed it to contain
enough chromium
to change its material category from P-1 (plain carbon steel, the easiest to weld) to a low-
chromium
category that required preheat to assure crack-free welds. Although the pipe had been bought in
Texas, it
turned out that the hollow from which it was drawn had been made in Europe. At that particular
time, in the
late 1980s, neither the ASTM nor the ASME material specifications for carbon steel pipe had any
limit for
residual elements such as chromium, copper, nickel, molybdenum, and vanadium, which were not
normally
expected in plain carbon steel.
Another problem that occurred occasionally with the use of steel manufactured in Europe was the
cracking
of cold-bent carbon steel pipe after a few years of service. Studies under the sponsorship of the
Material

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Properties Council found some evidence that the problem may have been caused by the presence
of small
amounts of residual elements, such as copper and tin. These elements may have come from scrap
used in the
manufacture of the pipe.
Owing to the welding and other problems with unexpected and unwanted residual elements in
carbon
steels, the ASTM (and the ASME), in the late 1980s, began a program of revising the specifications
for some
of these materials, to restrict their chemistry. Limits were placed on the permitted percentages of
certain
residual elements. For example, the current specifications for SA-53 and SA-106 carbon steel pipe
call for
a maximum chromium, copper, or nickel content of 0.4%, and a maximum combined total of 1%
for five
named residual elements. The certified material test report routinely furnished with pressure-part
material
lists this material composition. As a consequence of the restricted chemistry, materials
manufactured to the
new requirements changed slightly. Again, the problem of material in inventory was raised, since it
would
not be possible without expensive and tedious analysis to demonstrate that the old material met
the requirements
of the latest specification for residual elements. Fortunately, Code Case 2053, dealing with
materials
in inventory, again applied and permitted the continued use of those materials, as explained
below.
It should be noted that Code Case 2053 has now been annulled, since the Committee felt that it
had served
its purpose and that Table ED-1 in Sections II, Parts A and B, provide sufficient information to use
materials
produced to earlier editions.

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Hemant Solanki
CODE GUIDANCE ON THE USE OF OLD MATERIALS

In the early 1990s, the Committee on Materials, BPV II, was asked to address and provide
guidance on
the problem of using materials made to previous editions of the specifications. As indicated above,
BPV II
prepared an Appendix A (now Table ED-1) to both Parts A and B of Section II, listing the latest
material
specifications adopted by the ASME and the dates of earlier versions considered equivalent and
acceptable,
going back in some cases to 1980. The task of comparing and accepting earlier specifications was
lengthy
and tedious, so Subcommittee II went back only to 1988 as a base year for comparison, but listed
some earlier
years when it was apparent that those earlier editions were identical to the 1988 editions.
The introduction to Table ED-1 is rather brief, but it explains several important policies that differ
slightly
from those explained in the 1980 Section VIII interpretation mentioned above. Table ED-1 states
that an
ASME or an ASTM specification with requirements different from the current or other acceptable
specification
(e.g., the one in effect at the time of the contract) may be used, provided the material
manufacturer or
vessel manufacturer certifies with evidence acceptable to the Authorized Inspector that the
requirements of
one of the acceptable versions of the specification have been met.
There is other useful information to be found in the introduction to Table ED-1 of Section II, Parts
A and
B. This appendix lists the book sections of the ASME Boiler Code that approve and permit the use
of the
various specifications. Stated another way, it is possible to find any Section II material in Table
ED-1 in a
numerical list and quickly determine which book sections permit its use. Table ED-1 also states
that a material
produced under an ASTM specification may be used in lieu of the corresponding ASME
specification
listed in Table ED-1 (if it is identical). If it is not identical, the manufacturer would have to
demonstrate to
the AI that the ASTM material met the requirements of the corresponding ASME specification. A
situation
illustrating many of the problems that can arise when using old material happened at one of the
authors'
companies. That company had in inventory a considerable quantity of SA-178 grade C tubing
material

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from a job that had been cancelled in 1985 and decided to use it for a boiler being built to the
1995 edition
of Section I. When the old tubes were shipped from one of the company's plants to another, they
were
challenged by the receiving plant's quality control inspectors because the list of acceptable
specifications
in Table ED-1 of Section II, Part A went back only as far as the 1989 SA-178 specification.
Upon careful review of the 1985 and 1995 specifications, it was found that a number of
requirements had
been deleted in the 1995 version, and the permitted chemistry ranges for sulfur and phosphorous
had been
reduced to 0.035% from the 1985 values of 0.060% and 0.050%, respectively. The certified
material test
reports
for the old tubes showed that the sulfur content was just over the new 0.035% limit for at least
some
of the tubes. Thus, it would not be possible to demonstrate that the old material met the
requirements of one
of the currently acceptable versions of the SA-178 specification listed in Appendix A. Moreover, if
the old
tubes could not be used, new ones would have to be purchased, and the job would suffer costly
delay. Fortunately,
Code Case 2053, dealing with materials in inventory, was written to provide relief for just this sort
of
situation. When Case 2053 was brought to the attention of the QC inspector, he dropped all
further objections
to the use of the old tubes.
A caveat should be offered here. Code Cases have a limited life. Code Case 2053 was intended to
relieve
economic hardship and allow old material in inventory to be used up. It is unlikely that the case
will ever be
incorporated into the text of the Code, and there is some sentiment among the Committee
members to let it
expire, on the grounds that sufficient time has been allowed to exhaust the old stocks of material.
As indicated
above, Code Case 2053 has been annulled, and the provisions of Table ED-1 of Section II, Parts A
and B
should cover most cases where a manufacturer wishes to use material in inventory, and which was
produced
to an edition earlier than current edition.

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Mahboob Qayyum likes this.

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STATIC EQUIPMENT GROUP - FABRICATION POSTS
Page 317 of 390

Hemant Solanki
PWHT retention time as per Div.1 is 1 hr/ inch but as per Div.2 it is 2 hr. + 0.6 min/inch
above excess of 50mm thickness. with this if I have 100 mm thick vessel then As per Div.1
its retention time will be more than 240 minutes and as per Div.2 it will be only 150
minutes.
Can anybody tell why this much difference in PWHT retention time of both codes. as Div.2
is handling thick vessels its retention time will be more. FYI, in both codes holding
temperature is 595C.
Please clarify if anyone have idea about this difference.
Like Unfollow Post Share December 10, 2011 at 10:31am

Hemant Solanki One view on this is shared by Mr. Purav Desai


"For Div. 2 equipment simulation heat treatment is mandatory during working life of equipment. Due to
this ASME has intentionally kept holding time less as that equipment will again go for simulation heat
treatment in it's working life.
This is not the case for Div.1 equipment. that's why it's holding time is kept more." December 18, 2011
at 7:01pm Like

Hemant Solanki
If I am joining slip on flange with shell, what will be the weld category of that joint as per
code? Category C or Category B?slip on flange will always be fillet welded to the
connecting shell.
Like Unfollow Post Share December 8, 2011 at 7:36pm

Amarnath C. Roy C category.... December 8, 2011 at 7:46pm Like

Ye KeTah La shell to pipe is D category and pipe to flange is C December 8, 2011 at 8:15pm Like

Manish Shukla If the shell is seamless, go for cat-B else cat-C for SORF. This is my purview.
email
December 8, 2011 at 9:43pm via Like

Manish Shukla Sorry, its vice versa, if shell is seamless go for cat-C else cat-B for SORF December 8,
email
2011 at 9:44pm via Like

Mrudang Mehta Hi...firstly shell to body flange joint is Cat-C... i have a reservation..December 8,
2011 at 11:32pm Like

Mrudang Mehta 1. This category are important for radiography consideration based on which joint
efficiency is selected..and for fillet welds radiography cannot be performed... only die penetrant can be
done... so not sure who it will help... 2.. if it is O&G related equipment, ususally SO joints are not
used.. atleast for Body flange... December 8, 2011 at 11:35pm Like

Ye KeTah La agreed with mrudangmetha..in O&G SO is prohibited..Weld neck is preferable December


9, 2011 at 8:36am Like

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Hemant Solanki Flange to shell connection is always Category C. Whether it is fillet weld or butt weld
does not matter. Weld Categories are defined in accordance with the nature of the principal stress at
the weld joint due to internal pressurization. Category C joints are oriented parallel to the direction of
maximum stress created by pressure containment. December 18, 2011 at 7:08pm Like

Mitul Patel
I observed one new thing in ASME code in UCS-68(C).Most of us may be knowing that
when we do PWHT due to service requirements we can take advantage of 17 degree
reduction in MDMT below which impact testing is required as per UCS-66.Now the
interesting part comes code says reduction of 17'C (30' F) but if you convert 17 degree C
to degree F you will get 62.6 F. ??? Does anybody come across this issue.Please share
your views.
Like Unfollow Post Share April 21, 2012 at 11:25pm via mobile
Hemant Solanki According to UCS-68(c) in faranhit 30 and in centigrade 17 reduction can be done if
we perform PWHT on steel. I have written this statement like this to only state that the reduction value
in both units are different. We should not relate with each other with conversion formula.
e.g. SA-516-60 material is exempted from impact testing upto -15F(-26C) according to Curve C of
Fig. UCS-66. Now if we perform PWHT then as per UCS-68(c) this exemption temperature can be
reduced to -45F(-42.8C). Just reduced that reduction factors from both corresponding temperature
units.April 22, 2012 at 7:14pm via mobile Like

Patel Sajit As per appendix-GG, clause GG-3 when there is temp. differance use conversion as devide
1.8 and when simple temp conversion then use temp/1.8 + 32 general formulaApril 24, 2012 at
4:28pm via mobile Like 1

Purav Desai
Hi Friends,

Just come to know very interesting point regarding heat exchanger design & want to
share in the forum;

"Recently almost all the clients requires future machining allowance (3 mm) on the heat
exchanger body flanges made from CS/LAS material.

Till now, to comply above requirement, I used to add machining allowance (3 mm) on the
gasket face of flange.

But, recently i come to know that, for heat exchangers, we use confined joints at
tubesheet and if we machine the flange, we will end up with the deeper groove and joint
can not be tightened.

So, for heat exchangers, future machining allowance when required, is to be added in
tubesheet and channel cover gasket face and NOT on the flanges."
Like Unfollow Post Share May 14, 2012 at 4:48pm
Mitul Patel, Kiran Gawade, Rohitash Singh Panwar and 5 others like this

Vishal Patil This may not be true in case of cladded tubesheet extended for flangeMay 15, 2012 at
9:11pm Like

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Purav Desai Dear Vishal, thats why i mentioned for carbon steel & low alloy steel material. Read
carefully.....May 16, 2012 at 8:14am Like

Vishal Patil Gasket faces of both the sides get corroded,tubesheet and flanges after prolong time of
operations. So when it needs to machine the gasket faces to avoid leaks, both faces must be machined
at the same time. This is required to achieve the surface finish required for the specific gasket type. If
the future machining allowance not provided on flange, then in that case, weld overlay is to be
provided on the flange face and then that overlayed face machined to achieve the required surface
finish. This type of overlays are not prefered because pron to leaks, or may get separated from surface
of flange. Its time consuming process, hence client ask for future matching on both sides of gasket. In
case of extended type of tubesheet, any how one has to add double future matching allowance on
tubsheet extended if machining of flange bolting section is not to done, because during the matching of
gasket faces both sides will get deepened. I have experienced this problem, when one of the plant
decided to use old equipment after feasibility test.May 17, 2012 at 8:49pm Like

Purav Desai Dear Vishal, Can you elaborate the below para;May 18, 2012 at 3:36am Like

Purav Desai "In case of extended type of tubesheet, any how one has to add double future matching
allowance on tubsheet extended if machining of flange bolting section is not to done, because during
the matching of gasket faces both sides will get deepened."May 18, 2012 at 3:37am Like

Ankur Gupta Purav, SADARA MFC Project Spec. also calls for future matchining allowance 6mm.May
23, 2012 at 4:53am Like

Ankur Gupta And there would be no problem in bolt tighetening (Flange & Tube Sheet) if you
consider future matching allowance only on Flange.May 23, 2012 at 4:55am Like

Purav Desai Dear Ankur, I sent this understanding in that regards only. And yes, problem of
tightening will not occur now, it will occur when u machine confined joint flange of heat exchanger.
Just draw it on paper & you will come to know..May 23, 2012 at 5:21pm Like

Hemant Solanki
Interpretation for dish end stress relieveing

Interpretation: VIII-1-95-50

Subject: Section VIII, Division 1 (1992 Edition, 1993 Addenda); UCS-79(d)

Date Issued: March 13, 1995

File: BC94-684

Question (1): A cold formed head has to be heat treated to fulfill the requirements of UCS-
79(d) in Section VIII, Division 1. Does the term "heat treated subsequently" mean just
after forming and prior to any other operation?

Reply (1): No.

Question (2): If Reply (1) is no, then will PWHT in accordance with UCS-56 satisfy the

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requirements of UCS-79(d) following welding of the head to the vessel?


Reply (2): Yes.

Purav Desai
Can we install trays in horizontal position of column?

Please reply with possible advantage/disadvantage and safety aspect.


Like Unfollow Post Share July 17, 2012 at 7:39am

Naresh Thakur Yes we can with special arrangment provided for load bearing parts and heavier parts.

email
July 17, 2012 at 8:06am via Like

Hiren Javia koch-glitsch has special design for horizontal installation called horizon.

July 17, 2012 at 8:39am via mobile Like

Hiren Javia for normal tray it is quite difficult to install in horizontal position because its paripherial
clamps may slide on tsr

July 17, 2012 at 8:44am via mobile Like

Naresh Thakur There are many other companies....

email
July 17, 2012 at 1:34pm via Like

Krishna Desai YES. Advantage : Take less installation time (At a time from top as well as bottom, two
team can install), no need to make arrangement to trasport trays to top from ground, less chance of
injury due to spanner fall from top, Ventilation is very easy in some complex columns . Dis advantage :
will affect the design of lifting & tailing lug design, May chance of damage to tray of tray parts during
lifting, No surity of allignment, have to spend time on intigrity and alignment check, wherever, sloted
joints used may chances of largets / smallest allowance due to one side weight of trays.

July 17, 2012 at 2:59pm Like 2

Purav Desai Thank you for reply. Also share ur views regarding installation place i.e. At column
vendor shop or at site?...July 17, 2012 at 3:38pm via mobile Like

Mihir Jha Positive cost impact will be given by tray vendor. Also, only few reputed vendor will agree
for the tray to be installed in horizontal position. The bolting arrangment will changeJuly 17, 2012 at
3:41pm Like

Hiren Javia as per my opinion if schdule is not so compact then go for site installationJuly 17, 2012
at 4:39pm via mobile Like

Manoj Prasad We can install but internal vendor confirmation requiredJuly 17, 2012 at
8:37pm via mobile Like

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Hemant Solanki Tray installation in Vertical position is preferable for ease of installation however tray
installation in Horizontal position can be carried out. Only following points are required to take care
during installation.
The tray support ring levelness should be ensured in vertical condition at the vessel vendors shop.
The supports should be dimensionally checked and ensured as per the drawings. In the horizontal
condition.
The column should be rotated and kept so that the downcomers shall be in the horizontal position for
single as well as double pass trays.
The downcomers shall be installed first followed by inlet panels and the active panels. Manways shall
be closed for
all the trays before box-up.
For column diameter of more than 2 mt., only half the trays should be installed and then the column
should be rotated for balance half for better access and easy installationJuly 18, 2012 at
email
3:00pm via Like 1

Krishna Desai Manoj, I think atlest now we should confirm some of the technical matters instead of
asking vendor everytime.July 18, 2012 at 4:39pm Like

Pramod Dixit We did it in 1998 at L&T Hazira and the trays were exported to a UK refinery. You need
to have some additional spacers bolting of trays to maintain spacings and avoid dislodging during
column lifting. These additional spacers are to be removed later by opening TRAY MANWAYS, after
erection of the column. Also take care additional load for lifting crane. Some times total trays weight
may increase total lifting load beyond the capacity of the crane.July 20, 2012 at 2:13pm Like 3

Hemant Nikam U can installed but u can't take level if slope required or not required as 0 0, But
email
installation in vertical condition is convenient for installer..July 22, 2012 at 1:19am via Like

Hemant Nikam U can installed but u can't take level if slope required or not required as 0 0, But
email
installation in vertical condition is convenient for installer..July 22, 2012 at 1:19am via Like

Maulik R Shah
During explosion cladding, how much thickness is reduce in Base metal and Cladding
metal?
Like Unfollow Post Share August 1, 2012 at 10:00pm
Mihir Jha During the process of explosion welding, both the base metal and cladding metal must
undergo surface grinding to remove the mill scale and/or oxides from the mating sides of the two
metals prior to bonding.

After the bonding takes place, the plates may undergo further grinding so that the finished clad surface
suitable for the customer's application. If machining is required to meet close dimensional tolerances
(such as a tubesheet for example), the clad metal surface, the base metal surface, and final outside
diameter may all be machined to final dimensions.

Further, different metals will have different levels of metal loss and thickness reduction because of their
condition or inherent softness - steel versus copper for example.

So - it depends on the metal combination and the application.August 3, 2012 at 5:04am Like

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Hemant Solanki Metal Thinning. During the explosive collision the forces tend to squish the thickness
of the metals. This thinning is a function of the metals initial hardness and thickness.
For example, when bonding copper to stainless, a .250" x 12" x 24" copper plate might
end up .220" x 12.25" x 24.25". Since the stainless is harder, it might go from .250" x
12" x 24" to .240" x 12.12" x 24.2". Soft and thick materials tend to thin more than hard
and thin. Therefore, starting with thicker material and machining after bonding is strongly
email
recommended.August 3, 2012 at 2:18pm via Like

Maulik R Shah is there any good bond area required during the explosion cladding?...August 3, 2012
at 9:03pm Like

Mihir Jha DMC Response: Generally speaking, we assume that for pressure vessel plate, there is a loss
of about 0.5mm from the cladding metal and about 1.5mm metal loss from the base metal.

So for example, if plate requirement has a 30mm minimum base metal and a 3mm minimum clad
metal, DMC would purchase 31.5mm nominal and 3.5mm nominal respectively. This guarantees that
DMC will not be under the minimum requirement.

Please note that this applies to DMC only. We cannot speak for other explosion cladding company's
tolerances during cladding..August 5, 2012 at 5:30am Like

Hemant Solanki added photos to Typical PWHT Setup.

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Mihir Jha
As per project spec, all pressure vessel specified for sour service shall be 100 %
Radiographed? Does it mean we have to take lip type nozzle as per ASME Code?

Another query, Nozzle and manway attachment welds shall be examined by wet magnetic
particle method is mentioned in the same project spec. Does it mean, we can take pad
type nozzle and 100 % radography is for C-seam & L-seam of shell and head only?
Like Unfollow Post Share July 25, 2012 at 11:27am
Mitul Patel In one of the recent project we have similar requirement for hydrogen lethal and cyclic
service. But some special UT techniques like TOFD and PAUT can be used inplace of radiographable
joint i.e lip type construction for weld category D joints i.e.Check your specification that UT inplace of
RT is allowed or not.One code case is also there for this.Generalpractise is go for lip type construction
for 100% radiography..July 25, 2012 at 6:55pm via mobile Like 1

Purav Desai Meaning of 100% radiography is that all butt welds in the vessel shall be radiographed
and exemptions of UW-11(4) for nozzles are NOT ALLOWED. Hence for 100% radiography, nozzles
shall be lip type nozzle as per Fig. UW-16.1 f(1) to f(4).

For other query of let me assume that you mean to say Wet Fluorescent Magnetic Particle Test (WFMT)
and not wet magnetic particle method. Now a days fluorescent particles are used in MPT to get better
visibility but it cannot be related with selection of nozzle in Sour Service equipment. Further defects
detected by WFMT & radiography are different and both NDE are necessary to be performed. Hence
the clause referred by you does not mean that you can use nozzle with pad in sour service equipment
with 100% radiography requirementJuly 25, 2012 at 7:36pm Like 1

Hiren Javia in one of the column with cyclic and wet h2s service vendor has done paut for all category
d joint.July 25, 2012 at 10:44pm via mobile Like 1

Hiren Javia most of the specs allowtut with permenant records in place of RT. so if your specs allow
no need to go for leap type nozzle..July 25, 2012 at 10:46pm via mobile Like 1

Mihir Jha 17.1.5 NDT for Welded Joints


a. Except as otherwise specified by the Company, all
pressure vessels specified for sour service shall be 100%
radiographed. In addition, all internal weld surfaces shall be examined by the wet fluorescent magnetic
particle
method.
b. Nozzles and manway attachment welds shall be examined
by wet magnetic particle methods..July 26, 2012 at 9:28am Like

Mihir Jha Please refer above the exact statement from the spec. Lip type nozzle is required only if the
client is mentioned in the spec. FOr example. Saudi aramco spec says to use lip type for 100%
radiography.July 26, 2012 at 9:33am Like

Mihir Jha Purav Desai 100 % Radiography does not mean that we have to use Category D to be butt
type i.e Lip type nozzle . If the client wants Lip forgings and radiography of nozzle attachment welds, it
needs to be mentioned on drawings and specifications. Saudi Aramco Spec has cleary mention that for
100% radiography Lip type nozzle to be provided. My understanding is that for 100% radiography, all
butt welded joints (Cat. A, B &C ) to be 100% radiographed. For Category D, Client Spec should clearly
mention. In the above case, nozzle and manway attachment weld shall be by wet magnetic particle

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methods. So, RT is not mandatory for Nozzle and Manway attachment hence lip type nozzle is not
required..July 27, 2012 at 6:51am Like

Hemant Solanki Yes For Sour service it is not required to provide lip type construction. Even though
100% radiography is mentioned we can carry out other NDT on joints which does not have access for
radiography.
we prefer for lip type construction in case pressure is high.
Also if client ask specifically for the same then it is ok.
100% radiography means every joint should be tested for its entire length so that equipment can be
stamped as RT-1..July 27, 2012 at 8:29pm Like 1

Madhusudhan Shetty selection of lip type configuration is not mandatory only for the reason of
radiography, instead vendors can opt for TOFD method which is industry and code accepted. Even
under lethal service we can go with reinforcement pads and full radiographyJuly 27, 2012 at
8:44pm Like

Rupesh Ubale Rule of thumb is that normally for Lethal or when thickness of shell exceeds 50 mm or
cyclic loading..if spec does not governs...but it should be always discussed before selecting as it is cost
issue...In my opinion in cyclic service it is advisable to go always for lip type..August 21, 2012 at
10:36pm Like

Rajendra Sharma
Dear friends
Please suggest the reasons of doing PWHT for all LAS material.(irrespective of
thickness,even 16 mm for some P no.)
Like Unfollow Post Share June 18, 2012 at 9:23pm
Harry Chacko likes this.

Purav Desai Refer to ASME Section II - D Non Mandatory Appendix - A, Section A-250.June 19,
2012 at 9:01am Like

Hemant Solanki The requirement for post weld heat treatment is largely a function of the material
and the thickness. The material (in terms of alloy content) and the thickness (in relation to the quench
effect) control the microstructure that will be formed. Large section thicknesses in alloy steels can
result in martensitic, pearlitic or bainitic structures, depending on the cooling rate, and this is usually
controlled by the use of preheat. In addition, the thicker the material that is
welded, the greater the amount of residual stress that will be developed on cooling.
For typical carbon-manganese steels, the thickness at which post weld heat treatment becomes
mandatory is consistent in the 32
38 mm range for most of the Codes. The reason for each standard choosing a specific thickness is not
entirely clear, but little has changed over the past 30 years. What is interesting though is that
experiments conducted in the mid-1970s showed that fully restrained butt welds in carbon-manganese
steels could develop residual stresses in excess of the yield stress at a thickness of approximately 35
mm.
With alloy steels, the thickness at which post weld heat treatment becomes mandatory is much less.
Typically, the range is 13 20 mm, and even below 13 mm, a series of strict conditions have to be met
before post weld heat treatment can be waived. It is clear therefore, that with alloy steels, the removal
of residual stress is not the only
consideration for the application of post weld heat treatmentJune 19, 2012 at 8:27pm Like

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Rupesh Ubale Thanks.August 21, 2012 at 11:12pm Like

Mihir Jha
In one column, the service is Lethal. MOC is CS+316L SS Clad. Do PWHT to be carried out
as per ASME? Please give the clause reference to the spec. also.
Mihir Jha CS shell thk. is 14 mm.
July 19, 2012 at 11:51am Like 1
Hemant Solanki - Based on the requirement of UW-2(a) when our service is lethal and our material is
carbon steel or low alloy steel, PWHT is mandatory.

- As per UCL-34 (a) PWHT shall be provided to cladded vessel when base metal have PWHT
requirement. For this the determining thickness shall be the base metal thickness. PWHT shall be
carried out after application of corrosion resistant cladding/lining unless exempted by the notes of
Table-UCS-56.

- As per UCL-34 (b) Vessels that are integrally clad or lined with Type 405 or 410S & welded with an
austenitic electrode or non-air hardening Ni-Cr-iron electrode need not be post weld heat treated unless
required by UCL-34 (a).

- In your case, service is lethal and base metal is CS then PWHT is mandatory.

- According to UHA-32 (c) When pressure parts of two different P-Number groups are joined by
welding, the postweld heat treatment shall be that specified in either of Tables UHA-32 or UCS-56, with
applicable notes, for the material requiring the higher postweld temperature.

- So In your case PWHT holding temperature shall be as per 316L SS requirement (Table UHA-32).
Because 595 C is the minimum holding temperature required for CS and 760 is minimum holding
temperature required for SS.
Chetan Patel Mihir in your case due to service requirement cladding has been provided on base metal
. in addition to hemant suggestion please check that your spec. is asking for base metal pwht as in
most of pmc spec. is not demanding for pwht of base metal in case of compatible cladding provision.
July 19, 2012 at 1:00pm Like
Mihir Jha As per my code interpretation, for lethal service PWHT is mandatory for carbon or low alloy
steel. But since my column is cladded with SS 304 L so PWHT is not applicable per UW-2. If you refer
clause UCL-34 for PWHT requirement for CS+Clad, it is clear mentin that if the base metal i.e CS
require PWHT (Only Thickness is the criteria not service) then vessel to be done PWHT. But since the
thickness is less than 38 mm, so base metal do not require PWHT. So inspite of lethal service for this
case PWHT is not required. Hemant Solanki and chetan patel, please give ur view on my explaination.
July 19, 2012 at 1:10pm Like
Chetan Patel Your interpretation is right. in your case base metal csthk. is 14 mm which is not falling
under pwht requirement as per UCS requirement of cl. ucl-34 for cladded equipment. hence PWHT is
not reuired.
July 19, 2012 at 1:13pm Like
Purav Desai Please also refer Caution note just at the start of UCL-34;

Postweld heat treatment may be in the carbide-precipitation range for unstabilized austenitic
chromiumnickel steels, as well as within the range where a sigma phase may form, and if used
indiscriminately could result in material of inferior physical properties and inferior corrosion resistance,
which ultimately could result in failure of the vessel.

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I feed that due to above reason, PWHT for clad vessels shall only be considered based on thickness
criteria of base metal and not the service requirement. As far as service is concerned, already clad
material is provided to resist.
July 19, 2012 at 3:30pm Like
Hemant Solanki Dear All,
Every point stated from code here is Valid. It is logical to ask why to carry out PWHT when we can
avoid it as lethal fluid will be in contact with SS part.
As far as service is considered base material is not in direct contact with fluid.

I would like to discuss this point in other way.

Lets take Mihirs equipment. Which is CS (14 thk) + 304L clad + Lethal service.

1st instance : Lets consider there is No lethal service (i.e. Normal service). Also no SS cladding. Since
thickness is less than 38 mm. NO PWHT required.

2nd instance : Now consider Lethal service (As per UW-2 substance which is hazardous to health and
need not to be leak out from vessel).
. Also consider there is No SS cladding. Now again thickness is less than 38 mm still why PWHT is
required?
Here the stress corrosion cracking phenomenon comes into the picture. This phenomenon is more
applicable in Caustic service. So for Caustic service always PWHT is mandatory. For Lethal service this
phenomenon is not much in effect. Still ASME committee has decided that there may be chance of this
phenomenon takes place. So ASME mandated it for CS and LAS equipment.

3rd instance : Now consider Mihirs equipment. CS with SS cladding. Here also the same safety aspect
can apply. As we cannot take risk in terms of leakage of fluid mostly we prefer for PWHT for this
equipment.

Puravs point is valid. But I do not think that for 3 to 4 mm cladding this much effect will be there. If 40
mm thk CS with SS cladding will be there any how we have opted for PWHT. Because above 38 mm
thk fully restrained butt welds in carbon-manganese steels could develop residual stresses in excess of
the yield stress. So even though we are covering CS with SS clad still CS HAZ will going through this
residual stresses and in order to relieve this PWHT is required. in that case holding temperature will be
590C. So any how SS cladding will be in sensitization zone (Sensitization temp. is 480).

So as far as logic is considered it is not required but still most of the client ask for PWHT as a safety
measure. FYI, in one of my recent project we have also provided PWHT for such equipment. I am
studying its PWHT procedure. So may be Puravs point I will discuss further after my study of PWHT
procedure. I would like to know what PWHT procedure fabricator follows in such instance. In other
words How to avoid sensitization in ss clad during PWHT?
Manan Shah Dear all Code Interpretations - VIII-1
Interpretation: VIII-1-95-137
Subject: Section VIII, Division 1 (1995 Edition); UW-2(a), UCL-34, and UCL-35
Date Issued: January 2, 1997
File: BC96-334
Question (1): Are the requirements in UW-2(a) of Section VIII, Division 1 for performing full
radiography and postweld heat treatment on vessels which are to contain lethal substances applicable
regardless of the calculated pressure and thickness for the vessel?
Reply (1): Yes.
Question (2): Are the requirements of UW-2(a) superseded by the provisions of UCL-34 and UCL-35?
Reply (2): No.
July 19, 2012 at 9:38pm Like

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Hemant Solanki I have gone through PWHT procedure followed by Vendor in one of our Project. But
even though SS cladding is there vendor has kept holding temperature upto 620C. So still it is not
clear whether sensitization phenomenon should look into this or not.

In addition to interpretation posted by Manan, I would also like to specify few interpretation which will
throw more light on this issue.

Interpretation: VIII-1-92-92
Purav Desai Interpretation: VIII-1-92-92
Subject: Section VIII, Division 1 (1992 Edition); UW-2(a)
Date Issued: September 24, 1992
File: BC92-246
Question: A vessel is constructed of 316L SS and is designated for lethal service. One end closure
is a carbon steel (SA-105) blind flange to which a 316L stainless steel liner covering the entire
raisedface
area has been attached by welding, Does the blind flange require PWHT as noted in UW-2(a) of
Section VIII, Division 1?
Reply: Yes.
July 20, 2012 at 3:04pm Like
Hemant Solanki I have gone through PWHT procedure followed by Vendor in one of our Project. But
even though SS cladding is there vendor has kept holding temperature upto 620C. So still it is not
clear whether sensitization phenomenon should look into this or not.

In addition to interpretation posted by Manan, I would also like to specify few interpretation which will
throw more light on this issue.

Interpretation: VIII-1-92-92
Hemant Solanki Thanks Purav, Some problem is there so it is not showing interpretation which I
want to post. In addition to Interpretation: VIII-1-92-92 also refer below interpretation.

Interpretation: VIII-1-98-108 (This interpretation need to verify as I have not seen such practice in
use)
Hemant Solanki Using low carbon grade SS (304L/316L) or Stabilized grade SS (321/347) is useful
when particularly lengthy heat treatment is required to perform on equipment. It does not allow to
deplete chromium so sensitization effect will not take place.
Thats why we mostly prefer these grades for cladding purpose.
Mitul Patel PWHT is required as per last line of Table UCS-56 of P1 material.which is also refered in
UCL-34(a).
July 24, 2012 at 9:04pm via mobile Like
Rupesh Ubale PWHT (for P1 materials anyway) is done between 595- 640C which is in the
sensitization range (500-800C)for austenitic stainless steel, which could result in material of inferior
physical properties and inferior corrosion resistance, which ultimately could result in failure of the
vessel.Therefore Corrosion test to perform to ensure overlay/clad corrosion resistance behavior in its
service in acc with ASTM-262 after PWHT.
Remedy: Stabilizing heat treatment. In case of SS solution annealing @ 1060-1120C followed by water
quenching.

(I am not expert in this, please suggest for correction or improvement)


August 29, 2012 at 12:26am Like
Hemant Solanki As per UCL-34 cautionary note
Postweld heat treatment may be in the carbide-precipitation
range for unstabilized austenitic chromiumnickel steels, as well as within the range where a sigma

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phase may form, and if used indiscriminately


could result in material of inferior physical properties and inferior corrosion resistance, which ultimately
could result in failure of the vessel.

So I think before carrying out PWHT on cladded equipment it is always advisable to perform that cycle
on production test coupon.

Hemant Solanki
Weld Pre-Heating : Interesting post from Material -Welding google group

Preheating protects structures made of metals which have a high conductivity


rate. These are metals such as carbon steel, copper and aluminum alloy, which
conduct heat quickly and suck heat away from weld metals causing them to cool
faster than normal. When this happens, the weld and parent metals do not have
the time to fuse properly so once again you end up with an uneven joint.

Whatweld pre heating does is it reduces the rate at which this heat exchange takes
place. As a result the cooling rate of the deposited weld metal allows it to
become more evenly fused with the parent metal.

preheating uses a carefully adjusted application of heat to areas affected by


the welding process. This controlled application is what allows the fusing of
weld and parent metals to happen smoothly and to preserve the integrity of the
metal. It also properly removes the components which cause weld porosity and
hydrogen cracking. Therefore weld preheating is the key to prevention of
frequent and costly repairs.

Pre-heatingeven with 100 deg C, prepares metal to make it more receptive to welding.
The importance ofpreheating increases with the thickness of the base metal because of
the rapidself quench capability, and with the rigidity of the welded structure because
of the derived constraints. In general the higher the preheat temperature and
the lower the heat input, the conditions are more favorable for limiting martensite
formation and its hardness, hopefully contributing to higher quality welds

Theminimum preheating temperature to be assured to avoid cracking depends on the


following factors:

1.Carbon
equivalent - More than 0.40% and if you are using E 6013 type electrodes

2.Carbon content - More than 0.35% and if you are using same Rutile coated electrodes
3.Condition
of base metal - Prior to welding like dampness or in cold condition etc.

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4.Thickness
of base material - More than 20 mm or above.
5.Constraint
level - Higher restrain level in the joint fit up

6.Hydrogen available risk. - Due to moisture level, sea-coastal area or if the humidity level
on the higher level
7.Alloy content - Cr-Mo- and other elements which are stress risers and may cause cracks
due to martensite formation in the HAZ ...

But, if it is a CS with low carbon level and if the thickness is less than 20 mm Pre heating
can be avoided..

Use E 7018/ E 7016 type electrodes if required and avoid pre-heating at critical areas..

Pre heating can done by various methods including gas burners. It is an additional
operation and fabrication cost may go up. Hence , avoid it

at the lower segment and if they still insist up on it, it could be done at extra payment if
not covered by your agreement.
Like Unfollow Post Share October 30, 2012 at 10:59am via Email
Arpita Shah and Rohitash Singh Panwar like this.

Mitul Patel
Seamless head to spot radiographed shell.It is come under RT-4 OR RT-3?Similarly 100%
RT comes under RT-1 OR RT-4?
Like Unfollow Post Share November 19, 2012 at 7:59pm via mobile
Hemant Solanki 100% RT comes under RT-1.
Seamless head joint efficiency shall be considered 1 if head to shell junction is minimum spot
radiographed. Also long seam of shell shall be considered with joint efficiency equal to 1 if connecting
circumferential seams are minimum spot radiographed. In that case that equipment will be RT-2
stamped.
If above is violated than it shall be RT-4 as it will not lie in definition of other radiography.
Members please correct me if i am wrong.

November 19, 2012 at 8:23pm Like 1

Arpita Shah http://www.inspection-for-industry.com/asme-pressure-vessel-joint-efficiencies.html

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ASME Pressure Vessel Joint Efficiencies

www.inspection-for-industry.com

The ASME Pressure Vessel Joint Efficiencies article provides information about p...See More

November 20, 2012 at 8:48am via mobile Like 1 Remove Preview

Hemant Solanki UW-12(d) SAYS:SEAMLESS VESSEL SECTIONS OR HEADS SHALL BE CONSIDERED


EQUIVALENT TO WELDED PARTS IN WHICH ALL CATEGORY A WELDS ARE TYPE 1..WHEN THE SPOT
RADIOGRAPHY OF UW- 11(a)(5)(b) REQUIREMENTS ARE MET
So in that case what I have explained is correct. Even though we use seamless head , to take credit of
E=1 in head , we should perform minimum spot radiography on shell to head joint.
If I opted No radiography option for shell to head joint then in that case E shall be 0.85 for head even
email
though we are using seamless head..November 20, 2012 at 11:00am via Like

Hemant Solanki Mitul,


in your case if you stamp equipment with RT-3 requirement then you have to design head with E=0.85
eventhough it's seamless head. here you have to check head minimum thickness with E=0.85.
But if you want to take advantage of seamless construction with E=1 then, this will be mixture of RT-2
and RT-3 requirements. So in that case you have to stamp this equipment with RT-4 stamp. as now it
is mixture of RT-2 and RT-3.
Members please correct me if I have missed something in interpreting code requirements..November
20, 2012 at 7:19pm Like

Hemant Solanki Mihir,


In your case , if you are performing all joint with spot radiography requirement then you can stamp
with RT-3 .but in that case you have to take E=0.85 for head calculation and accordingly minimum
head thickness should be satisfied eventhough you are using seamless head.
But if you want to take credit of E=1 for head then it will be mix up of RT-2 and RT-3 requirements. So
in that case you should stamp with RT-4.
Others please comment.

email
November 20, 2012 at 7:58pm via Like

Hemant Solanki
Typical sequence of operations for fabrication of a pressure vessel

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Like Unfollow Post Share November 26, 2012 at 5:12pm


Bhavesh Meshram, Samir Jani, Sachin Pawar and 2 others like this.

Mihir Jha
As per clause 5.7.4.1 of API 650 11th edition, All flush type cleanout fitting and flush type
shell connection shall be thermally stress relieved as an assembly prior to installation in
the tank shell or after installation into the tank shell if the entire tank is stress relieved.
Please share your experince about this clause.
Like Follow Post Share December 13, 2012 at 10:23am
Mihir Jha I have just found an strange requirement while going through two appendix of API 650.
Appendix A is applicable for small tank which is bulit on site. Appendix J is also applicable for small tank
wihich is shop built. In Appendix A, there is requiement A.8 which state that the provision of stress
relief specifed in 5.7.4 are not required unless they are specified by the purchaser or unless any plate
in the unit has a thickness greater than 16 mm. But this clause in not mentioned in Appendix J.
Appendix J size tank shall be less than Appendix A size tank. The requirement of stress relief shall be
less stringent in Appendix J as compared to Appendix A. But, in API there is no requirement stated in
Appendix J regarding stress relief. Hence Clause 5.7.4 shall be apply for Appendix J tank. Please share
your experience.....December 17, 2012 at 10:23am Like

Mihir Jha
As per clause 5.7.4.1 of API 650 11th edition, All flush type cleanout fitting and flush type
shell connection shall be thermally stress relieved as an assembly prior to installation in
the tank shell or after installation into the tank shell if the entire tank is stress relieved.
Please share your experince about this clause.
Like Follow Post Share December 13, 2012 at 10:23am

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Mihir Jha I have just found an strange requirement while going through two appendix of API 650.
Appendix A is applicable for small tank which is bulit on site. Appendix J is also applicable for small tank
wihich is shop built. In Appendix A, there is requiement A.8 which state that the provision of stress
relief specifed in 5.7.4 are not required unless they are specified by the purchaser or unless any plate
in the unit has a thickness greater than 16 mm. But this clause in not mentioned in Appendix J.
Appendix J size tank shall be less than Appendix A size tank. The requirement of stress relief shall be
less stringent in Appendix J as compared to Appendix A. But, in API there is no requirement stated in
Appendix J regarding stress relief. Hence Clause 5.7.4 shall be apply for Appendix J tank. Please share
your experience.....December 17, 2012 at 10:23am Like

Hemant Solanki
Cladded Tubesheet : Alternate Manufacturing

In our Project Vendor has proposed below for cladded tubesheet :


The tubesheets are made of SA-266 Gr. 2+SA-240 UNS S32205 clad material. The
tubesheet diameter is 2740 mm and the clad thickness is 12 mm. We understand from our
cladding vendor that because of the larger diameter and thickness it will not be possible to
carry out explosion bonding using a single clad plate. He has proposed to use two clad
plates of 8 mm and 5 mm that will be explosion bonded to the base material. The final
dimensions will be same as shown in our drawing.

Is anybody came across such alternate in any of your project?


What is the requirements needs to take care if we adopt this proposal ?
Please share your views.
Like Unfollow Post Share December 19, 2012 at 2:42pm via Email
Purav Desai Dear Hemant,

I never come across the case explained by you but following are the requirement that must be asked to
Vendor;

(1) Clad plate shall be one piece means 1 single plate for 8 mm & 1 single plate for 5 mm. Sometimes
clad plate vendor use welded clad plate and it can lead to defects.
(2) Shear or Bond strength test shall be conducted in accordance with SA-263, SA-264 or SA-265 as
applicable.

Further in your case, I suggest to go with weld overlaid tubesheet instead of cladded tubesheet. But
while you consider weld overlay you need to decide thickness of weld overlay very carefully considering
pass partition groove and minimum required undiluted chemistry of UNS S32205.....December 19, 2012
at 5:21pm Like

Hemant Solanki Dear,


Weld overlay for such diameter may be not economical.
However your concerns are noted and thanks for that.
But our main concern is as there are 2 SS plates going to use. One SS plate will be boneded to base
metal through explosion process. But what about SS to SS joining ?whether they will also perform
explosion process to join SS to SS clad plates. If not then in that case there will be no bond strength
between these 2 surfaces. As per me it is not acceptable. Also in our acse vendor has taken 8 and 5
mm thickness SS plates in order to achieve 13 mm clad. But in explosion process theer will be thickness

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reduction . So vendor should procure 1 to 2 mm higher thicknesses to achieve 13 mm after bonding.


Please clarify what should do in above situation ?...December 19, 2012 at 6:12pm Like

Purav Desai I visited few well known vendor shop here in korea and come to know that now a days
they have high technology strip cladding machine. with this machine weld overlay is done in very
accurate manner and it will be economical also. As vendor proposal in ur case is not easily digestive try
to get an alternative quote for weld overlaid tubesheet.....December 19, 2012 at
7:01pm via mobile Like

Vishal Patil I think we shall not allow to do this. First reason, if you have pass partition gasket groove
then the first layer will get removed during grooving operation at groove and the surface between two
clad plates will get exposed to liquid. If its H2S or any other service where crevices are not allowed
then this is the major problem. Only visual test from front end of tubesheet will not be sufficient to
check the status of corrosion level, chances of corrosion between the layers can not be denied. Another
is shear testing of the cladded plate. Two shear test will appear one for Base metal to clad plate and
another between clad plates. Which ASTM shear test they are going to follow? SA 263/264 are
applicable for base metal to clad material but not between clad materials. Weld overlay is the best
option.....December 20, 2012 at 12:15am Like 1

Mihir Jha Opinion from Jason Carter Of Delta Clad Company: I would take the position that this is not
the recommended path for getting to 12mm of thickness for 2205. Multi-layer clads are very common
but not as a means to build up thickness. Cladding 2205 in general requires greater than normal care
with the cladding process due to its strength and sensitivity to thermal treatments.

DMC would recommend cladding this as a single thickness of 12mm or greater into protect the
minimum thickness of the tubesheet/cover.

I would offer to have your vendor contact DMC directly if they want. We can put together an
acceptable means of making this clad. If they are in the Asia region, I am the appropriate
contact.....December 20, 2012 at 3:48pm Like

Hemant Solanki Thanks Mihir Jha, I will check and let you know. BTW, our Vendor is within
India.....December 20, 2012 at 7:07pm Like

Vishal Patil If weld overlayed by DSS, post weld heat treatment is ncessary..refer
doc..http://www2.sandvik.com/sandvik/0140/Internet/se01280.nsf/266bc9ad3a821442c1256e970030c
378/ecd132de31b33bd085256bd5006d666b/$FILE/Welding%20Practice%20for%20Sandvik%20Duplex
.pdf

http://www2.sandvik.com/sandvik/0140/Internet/se01280.nsf/266bc9ad3a821442c125
6e970030c378/ecd132de3

www2.sandvik.com

December 21, 2012 at 12:03am Like Remove Preview

Mihir Jha refer another reply from expert in this field : building up thicker layers of clad material in
several steps is a general option that we have used frequently. What I'm speaking about is typically a
clad layer of 40mm+. We have done this e.g. with stainless steel / Cu clads or carbon steel / Ti clads.
This is a flawless operation, as explosion cladding of two plates of the same material is normally easy
to obtain.
From a cost perspective you would choose this option only if the cladder thickness is so big, that your

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process can't cope with it. A 12mm SA-240 2205 cladder is definetly not a big challenge and should be
clad with a single plate. Also a diameter of 2740mm is nothing unusual. If your vendor can't handle
this, you should consider looking for another one!
Regarding your project: I wonder what base material thickness of the SA-266Gr.2 you are going to
use?.....December 21, 2012 at 3:06pm Like

Mihir Jha Hemant Solanki http://www.linkedin.com/groups/In-our-Project-Vendor-has-


4058719.S.197623573?qid=cd862f65-3f75-47d3-b7b0-ffe90505669a&trk=group_most_recent_rich-0-b-
ttl&goback=%2Egmr_4058719 . Please refre the link where i posted your query. Mr. Michael - I'm
curious what decision the project made in cladding these tubesheets. Can you please share with the
group? Please provide the latest update.

In our Project Vendor has proposed below for cladded tubesheet : The tubesheets are
made of SA-266.

www.linkedin.com

is 12 mm. <br> We understand from our cladding vendor that because of the large...See More

January 9 at 7:44am Like Remove Preview

Hemant Solanki Client has finally rejected to manufacture cladding from two plate. We have asked
vendor to provide cladding from one single plate of minimum thickness of 13 mm....January 9 at
1:15pm Like

Rahul Chavan
Can anybody knows, Why maximum PWHT temp for CS and Low alloy steel
materials shall be at least 20C less than tempering temp? - Reason
Like Unfollow Post Share March 13 at 1:58pm

Hemant Solanki Both Tempering and PWHT is carried out below lower critical temperature line A1.
Tempering is done on plates which are quenched rapidly. Quenched steels are very brittle. To increase
toughness, they are heat treated below A1 and then cooled to producethe desired property of strength
and good toughness.
As far as your query is concerned PWHT is done on weld joints of equipment. During welding also there
is chance of weld joints faces such tempering cycle. The microstructure, particularly in the HAZ, can be
hardened by rapid cooling of the weld. This is a major problem for low and medium alloy steels
containing chrome and any other constituent that slow the austenite/ferrite transformation down, as
this will result in hardening of the micro structure, even at slow cooling rates. Which is called as
Tempering effect. PWHT of weld joints diminishes such Tempering effect. So PWHT is carried out
below tempering temp to avoid tempering effect on weld joint..March 13 at 2:13pm Like 4

Maulik R Shah
Is it possible to formed the Dish from forging by forming process??
Like Unfollow Post Share March 14 at 1:22pm

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SenthilAnbazhagan Yes. It is based on the sizes of the dish. Small disches can be made using
forging..March 14 at 1:45pm Like

Hemant Solanki Yes. Refer UF-13 requirement in ASME Sec. VIII-Div.1..March 14 at


1:58pm Like 3

Purav Desai
Hi Krunal, I am quite sure that interviewer wanted to hear as per attached
photo for 304 and 304L. Its from henry bedner book.

Like Follow Post Share April 3 at 5:01am via mobile

Ramdas Kadam, Rohitash Singh Panwar and Chetan Patel like this.

Purav Desai
Case 2321-1
Exemption FromPostweld Heat Treatment for P-No. 4 or P-No. 5A Tube-to-
Tubesheet Seal Welds Section VIII, Division 1.

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Like Follow Post Share April 15 at 10:21am

Ramdas Kadam, Kiran Gawade and Hemant Nikam like this.

Krunal Solanky
whypwht is not reqd for ss materials(p no. ? ?
As per UHA-32, it is neither mandatory nor prohibited. How to decide whether
to provide or not? Based on customer specs only? ? ?

And this means stress generation due to welding in vicinity of base mtrl n HAZ
has no effect? Y? ?

And also why mandatory 4 csmtrl above 38 mm??


Like Unfollow Post Share April 15 at 12:17pm via mobile

Tejas Shah Solution annealingApril 15 at 1:26pm via mobile Like

Hemant Solanki AsTejas has rightly mentioned for SS it is solution annealing.


As far as stress relieving is concerned it is required for SS parts if fibre elongation exceeds 20%. as
above 20% rupture strength of SS decreases. For stress relieving it is required to heat above 620C
and then cool. So it is simillar to PWHT cycle.
As prolonged exposure to above 420C will sensitize SS so generally it is not preffered to do such
treatment on it. If require solution annealing shall be done. because as its name states it decompose
cabides and dissipitatecromoum into solid solution of austinitic phase.
As here also prolonged exposure is there but at end it will provide refined material.

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for thickness limitation: above some thickness stresses due to weld will be higher which needs to be
relieved. Every codes have their own minimum thk above which PWHT becomes mandatory. E.g. VIII-1
mandate PWHT of CS above 38 mm and other alloy steels above 16 mm. as per 31.3 above 32 mm
PWHt is mandate. etc.....April 15 at 8:34pm Like 3

Purav Desai
Please take care of following while selecting Class of austenitic SS bolts.
with Manish Shukla.

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1)

Kiran Gawade
Erection of 1300T Vessel using tower lift system & 750T crane for Tailing.

Like Follow Post Share May 2 at 2:04pm


Arpita Shah, Purav Desai, Rohitash Singh Panwar and 18 others like this.

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2)

Mihir Jha
Teflon sliding plate assembly with Purav Desai and Suraj Kr Tiwari.

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3)

Purav Desai
Photo of Thin Flexible Tubesheet for your reference Mahadevan Venkiteswaran.

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Like Follow Post Share May 12 at 10:03am


Arpita Shah, Kiran Gawade, Rohitash Singh Panwar and 9 others like this.

Mahadevan Venkiteswaran Thanks Purav.

May 12 at 2:06pm Like

4)

Purav Desai
Most of the Owner/PMC specification states that COLD FORMED CARBON STEEL DISHED
HEADS SHALL BE NORMALIZED if fiber elongation exceeds limit given in ASME Code and
sometimes normalizing is also made mandatory above certain thickness for example EIL
states that cold formed dished end above 16 mm thickness shall be normalized.

As per ASME Sec. VIII Div 1 UCS-79(d), only heat treatment in accordance with UCS-56 is
necessary if fiber elongation exceeds the limits.

This has direct relation to cost because as per ASME code holding temperature shall be

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kept 595 C (min.) for CS material where as if normalizing has to be done holding
temperature shall be kept in the range of 850 C to 900 C (min.)

So my question is Why normalizing is made mandatory by some Owners for cold formed
dished ends?
Like Unfollow Post Share May 27 at 10:46am
Aniket Sawant likes this.

Hemant Solanki Whatever written in UCS-79 is only for stress relieving of dish end as fibre elongation
due to forming operation is more. So its cycle is similar to PWHT (below recrystallization temperature)
to only stress relive these junctions (knuckle) where forming is taken place.

However in some specs (EIL and Jacobs) heat treatment of dish end is decided based on its thickness.
Below 16 mm stress relieving and above 16 mm normalizing.
Above 16 mm more pressure is required to form dish end. In that process grains gets elongated and
will distort its shape. In order to regain its shape normalizing is the only option. Normalizing will not
only relieve those forming stresses but will also help in regaining shape of grains. So temperature will
be above recrystallization temperature and holding time shall be as per UCS-56.

Most of PMC specifies Normalizing as option to be on safer side. But EIL and Jacobs has decided better
criteria to decide when to go with stress relieving and when to go with normalizing cycle.

Cold formed dish end shall always be accompanied with corresponding heat treatment.

Hot formed dish end shall not. As hot forming itself is similar to Cold forming + heat treatment above
recrystallization temperature. So its only scaling allowance which needs to consider in hot forming
dish end. Scaling is external layers of hot surface which forms due to high temperature
operations.May 27 at 11:05am Like 3

Mrudang Mehta Hi Purav,


The heat treatment required as per ASME is just stress relieving I.e it will help releasing the residual
stress caused during forming process.
Normalizing help not only release the residual stress but also refine the grain structure.
So to get the benefits of grain structure, specs call for NormalizingMay 27 at
11:07am via mobile Like 3

5)

Mihir Jha
Why for instrument nozzles 300 # minimum flange rating has been considered?
Like Follow Post Share May 31 at 7:17am
Patel Sudhir likes this.

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Krishna Desai In future, if client wants to connect Instrument system which uses utility air with
medium to high pressure.
Most of the clients procure 300# Flanges as a stock for future purpose. So that, the same can be used
for 150# evenMay 31 at 7:50am Like 1

DushyantVerma To match with instrument flange ....and usually instrument flages are minimum of
300 rating i.e. strong enough to carry instrument loadMay 31 at 12:51pm via mobile Like 1

Mrudang Mehta For standardization purpose, instrument flanges are made minimum 300# rating and
above by Instrument vendor and are ready available. So to cater this requirement, minimum flange
rating considered for instrument connection of PVs is 300#. Below 300# rating, there MAY be a deliver
impact when ordered.May 31 at 3:25pm via mobile Like

Abdul Rasyid MK there may high temperature at the instrument hook up pointntJune 1 at
5:16am via mobile Like

6)

Purav Desai
Most of the Owner/PMC specification states that COLD FORMED CARBON STEEL DISHED
HEADS SHALL BE NORMALIZED if fiber elongation exceeds limit given in ASME Code and
sometimes normalizing is also made mandatory above certain thickness for example EIL
states that cold formed dished end above 16 mm thickness shall be normalized.

As per ASME Sec. VIII Div 1 UCS-79(d), only heat treatment in accordance with UCS-56 is
necessary if fiber elongation exceeds the limits.

This has direct relation to cost because as per ASME code holding temperature shall be
kept 595 C (min.) for CS material where as if normalizing has to be done holding
temperature shall be kept in the range of 850 C to 900 C (min.)

So my question is Why normalizing is made mandatory by some Owners for cold formed
dished ends?
Like Unfollow Post Share May 27 at 10:46am
Aniket Sawant likes this.

Hemant Solanki Whatever written in UCS-79 is only for stress relieving of dish end as fibre elongation
due to forming operation is more. So its cycle is similar to PWHT (below recrystallization temperature)

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to only stress relive these junctions (knuckle) where forming is taken place.

However in some specs (EIL and Jacobs) heat treatment of dish end is decided based on its thickness.
Below 16 mm stress relieving and above 16 mm normalizing.
Above 16 mm more pressure is required to form dish end. In that process grains gets elongated and
will distort its shape. In order to regain its shape normalizing is the only option. Normalizing will not
only relieve those forming stresses but will also help in regaining shape of grains. So temperature will
be above recrystallization temperature and holding time shall be as per UCS-56.

Most of PMC specifies Normalizing as option to be on safer side. But EIL and Jacobs has decided better
criteria to decide when to go with stress relieving and when to go with normalizing cycle.

Cold formed dish end shall always be accompanied with corresponding heat treatment.

Hot formed dish end shall not. As hot forming itself is similar to Cold forming + heat treatment above
recrystallization temperature. So its only scaling allowance which needs to consider in hot forming
dish end. Scaling is external layers of hot surface which forms due to high temperature
operations.May 27 at 11:05am Like 3

Mrudang Mehta Hi Purav,


The heat treatment required as per ASME is just stress relieving I.e it will help releasing the residual
stress caused during forming process.
Normalizing help not only release the residual stress but also refine the grain structure.
So to get the benefits of grain structure, specs call for NormalizingMay 27 at
11:07am via mobile Like 3

7)

Veera Mani
hi...can any one give solution. one formed dished head received from sub vendor. our Qc
dept was rejected the dish end due to over crowning and SF 50 also not maintained...they
maintained only 25 mm. the given template also not matching in bottom 40 mm ca