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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > range activated exploding projectile
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Ctrl_C June 20th, 2002, 05:09 PM

Most of you have seen my spudgun by now. It has a 2" barrel and is pneumatic. Spuds are great and do a lot of damage but I'm looking for something better.
Imagine a smaller that golf ball sized moldable explosive, surrounded by tiny nails to make a spiny little grenade smaller than 2". Now imagine it has some very small
electronics in it also: an accelerometer, an adjustable timer, and a small power supply. The whole thing is encased in paper mache' to make a nice mortar-like ball that fits the
barrel perfectly. Now the idea is that you take the range of your target with a range finder, plug it into some simple projectile motion equations, and figure out how long the
shell will take to get to the target. You open a little flap or something on the shell, set the timer, and fire. The countdown starts at the end of positive acceleration (when it
leaves the barrel). As the shell travels down range, it counts down it's preprogrammed time and at the end, triggers a switch or relay to connect a circut with the ignitor,
causing it to explode.
This idea could be improved upon with an electronic range finder. Instead of manually entering the time, perhaps the shell has metal contacts that touch other contacts on the
inside of the barrel. The range finder relays the range into a microchip which calculates the time it takes for the shell to reach the target. This time is relayed from the chip to
the shell via the contacts.
I am going to begin testing this sometime this summer, starting out with a simple fused design just to test its worth. If it proves effective, I will try the electronic version.
As always, any suggestions?
Madog555 June 20th, 2002, 05:39 PM

thats a little complicated and expensive to just make it go boom. it would be a marvel though. i would probaly have a long string that pulls a pin out as it travels away to
activate a simple imact initiation device. you could use a thin wire that is coiled on the back for compactness. it would be a good precaution to make sure all the shrapnel is on
the front and sides. so it doesnt face u if it goes off ass the pin is pulled.
military greanades are activated by spinning in flight.
[ June 20, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]
xoo1246 June 20th, 2002, 05:42 PM

If you want it to explode on your target I would use impact detonators. You would have to have very consistent V0 on your spudgun/ cosistent design of your grenades and
500 other factors to make it work. I think it's overcomplicating stuff. I would rather spend my time developing safe(r) impact detonators and doing experiments, measurements
and calculations on angle vs range (vs wind). But don't let me stop you.
VX June 20th, 2002, 05:49 PM

Thats a great idea. :)
However I was once going to make something similar, The circuit was a simple 555 monostable circuit. It was set to turn on and start counting when a reed switch was
triggered as the projectile left the barrel of the cannon (a very powerful magnet was to be attached to the outside of the end of the barrel). The voltage was kept 'turned on'
by use of a thyrister.
There were some issues with it though, the barrel must not be made of a magnetic material, and the magnet must be removed when loading the projectile.
I think that the main advantage to this design as opposed to yours is its simplicity. Also it is very cheap, the electronics for each projectile probably not costing more than 2. I
think that a PP3 (9 Volt) battery is the most cost effective power source, and because of this the projectile would probable by elongated like a proper mortar shell. Finns could
also be added for extra stability.
This design does not however take into consideration the speed of the projectile, distance from source or any other factor. This would be a big problem if you had a misfire.
On a simpler note, how about just using the same design as an 'airbomb' (firework) and using the lift charge to light a section of slow burning composition and have this
leading into a primary charge (AP, HMTD etc) which in turn could be used to detonate a secondary explosive..... This is much less complex, but is a tries and tested method.
Ctrl_C June 20th, 2002, 06:13 PM

There's actually a funny story related to this. The original idea started out with putting a mortar type firework into the barrel and shooting it. My friend was going to light it,
quickly load it, and I was going to throw the valve. Well, apparently this cheap ass chinese fuse burns a LOT faster than my stuff. He lit it and was trying to shove it down the
barrel and 3 secs later: BANG!.
I knew the base charge had went off and the main was about to go off so I instinctivly ran into the nearby garage. Unfortunately, my friend didn't have such an advanced
understanding of how fireworks work as I did. He just stood there, unhurt but shocked, and then the entire area for about 40 yards instantly burned brightly and created thick
thick smoke as the burning stars whizzed past him and onto my porch, yard, picinic tables etc.
A-BOMB June 21st, 2002, 12:21 AM

Ctrl_C why not just use a radio transmitter and reciver setup. The transmitter has a adjustable range, the reciever is hooked up to a small relay, once the reciver is out of
range of the transmitter the relay closes and boom.
CyclonitePyro June 21st, 2002, 12:24 AM

This reminds me of the OICW, that gay looking futuristic gun, wouldn't mind on though. Look here <a href="http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/
fwframeset.html" target="_blank">http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/fwframeset.html</a>
That's is depressing, I bet the friendly UN Peacekeepers will be sporting these when they come to put me and others who think alike in FEMA centers. :mad:
Sounds like a fun project, it would be a little OTT for me but if you can do it then more power to ya.
pyromaniac_guy June 21st, 2002, 01:22 AM

a bomb....
althougha radio transmitter is a good idea, i dont like the idea of making the relay trip when the transmitter is out of range.... murphys law states that if you do something like
that, you are much more likely to drop the transmitter, or have it's battery die after arming the projectile.... still a good idea though.... lets say you wanted to set off a remote
charge.. you could laungh it with your spud gun, then set it off any time you want in the future, so long as you still have battery life left in the transmitter. i owuld caution
against useing off the shelf transmitters though, as it would suck to have a 'round' go off in your pocket because someone drove by while pressing their garage door opener
PYRO500 June 21st, 2002, 04:29 AM

I remember seeing a while back a baseball that you could throw and it would start and stop a timer when it was thrown/caught, the internal timer would calculate th speed (if
it was thrown at the right distance) I was unable to find a patent on the specific device but it seemed simple enough and was about 5$.

the only problem with the use of a simple timer is that it makes no distinction between a misfire and a proper shot, ie if your projectile just pops out of the barrel, you arent
going to ahve alot of time to duck and cover before things get very ugly. Thats one feature of the OP's idea that i kinda like, an accelerometer. this way you can build the thing
with a fail safe... an accelerometer tell the time to start counting down, but a solid state relay that carries the initiation signal is not activated unless the accelerometer sees x
g's....

also, if you had the funds and wanted to get REALLY devious....
you could use a small gps reciver.. they are making um to fit in a few cubic cm of volume these days.... see:http://em.tycoelectronics.com/micro/gpsnews.stm
you could make a large caliber spud gun, and sew up into a stuffed animal a reciver, antenna, battery pack, and explosive of choice... once the accelerometer tells the thing it
ahs been fired an internal microcontoller polls the gps, and decided whent he thing has been picked up.... when that happens, BOOM! (the use of a gps removes the chance of
a false fire due to the normal routes of failure for most motion mechanisms....) or if you wanted to get really selective, you could fire the thing onto the property of some
person.. when they pick up the stuffed critter to take it inside, or to the garbage can, boom! such a device would be very expensive, and very complex, but it sure does bring
up the possibility of a very target specific weapon
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2002, 09:49 AM

The South African army had an interesting idea they used for their cluster bomblets.
The bomblets were round balls covered with rubber that would bounce off the ground, back up into the air, before exploding. A simple impact switch would activate a .2 second
delay that caused it to explode between 10 and 40 feet above the enemies heads.
And we recently got into the store these shotglasses that light up when they're slammed down on the tabletop. A very small spring is supported on one end, the other end free
to swing above a contact plate. When hit with enough force against a stationary object, the free end of the spring bends down and touches the contact, completing the circuit.
This seems like an easily adapted impact switch. Just use a sufficiently stiff spring with some sort of support to prevent premature activation, like an ejecting pin that runs
down the spring, and you're set.
Anthony Privratsky July 21st, 2002, 02:06 PM

A simple but effective hand grenade could be made to explode on impact no matter how it lands. Its a little of the subject of a mortar/rocket but effective. A person could just
surround a HE with an impact sensitive explosive like ap, murcury fulminate or other. These could be made from a sphere of any kind.. prefferably a tennis ball. They wouldnt
be hard to make and would be really fun to throw around.
[ July 21, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Anthony Privratsky ]
kingspaz July 21st, 2002, 05:38 PM

well you just go and do some testing then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ....thats a good idea in principle but a shitty idea in reality. having an HE
with primary sorrounding it is lethal. one drop and its all over. you need somthing you can activate with the removal of a pin or somthing so when the pins in its not going to go
off nomatter what.
Anthony July 21st, 2002, 09:02 PM

Not to mention it'd be rather unreliable. The primaries you mentioned aren't *that* sensitive.
john_smith July 22nd, 2002, 02:33 AM

Talking about impact detonators, the simple primary based ones with no safeties are more threat to you than to whoever you plan to use em on, and military style grenade
igniters are impossible to replicate without a completely equipped machine shop. However, what about building an electric one using a car alarm shock sensor? It would be easy
to incorporate a simple delay activating the sensor/firing circuit about 0.5 sec or so after releasing the safety, and it would probably blow up quite reliably.
Edit: replace the alarm sensor with fuel cutoff shock sensor.
[ July 22, 2002, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: john_smith ]
Ctrl_C October 2nd, 2002, 09:54 PM

I'm bringing this back up because I finished rebuilding my spudgun today. While I eventually plan on doing a range activated thing, I'm going to start off with an impact
sensitive bullet for it. I need opinions on several things:
What type of explosive? Remember it has to withstand some pretty substantial acceleration so low sensitivity is a must.
What type of casing? It must fit in a 2" pvc pipe. I originally planned on using a mini nerf football (very aerodynamic w/ fins) that supposedly fits very well into a 2" pipe but
they are discontinued. I was thinking possibly plaster. Lightweight, easy to cast, however, If it is shaped like a large bullet (I figure about 1' long total with a rounded front
end), then the side walls around the explosive may not withstand the force of the massive air pressure wave hitting it.
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">
|--------x---------\
| x \
| EEEEEEEEEEEEE==P---
| x /
|________x_________/</pre><hr /></blockquote>This is the basic idea, explosive cast in middle, with a small tube
extending to the tip (also filled with explosive) and a primer at the end of the tube and a metal rod just sticking out of the bullet to transfer impact to the primer. Weak points
of concern where x's are.
Remember, I'm trying to avoid metal as this round has to be as lightweight as possible.
[ October 02, 2002, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Ctrl_C ]
Eliteforum October 2nd, 2002, 10:54 PM

Might be a bit extream, but an idea.
First make a mould of your chosen design, then with a say plaster mould, fill it with melted plastic, then with another solid mould but about 5mm gap all the way around the
other mould. push it in, and the excess plastic is pushed out.
Don't know how good this would work, or if it would work at all. But you could try it on a smaller scale perhaps?
Asger October 4th, 2002, 07:31 AM

About using AP in projectiles. I searched for this regarding small arms but it is not very common.
Though AP is somewhat sensitive, it is stil insensitive and stable enough to be filled into a cal.22 hollowpoint and making a projectile that explodes on impact. I tried it many
many times working perfectly 99,9% of the time. Both from pistol and rifle.
If pressed firmly it will withstand a high acceleration without detonating. So if it is pressed good (take care) it should launch from your spudgun like a charm. But take really
good care. You would obviously be dealing with larger amounts than that of a .22 drilled with a 2,2 mm drill.
Well my use in the .22 is very different from yours so I just mention this so you can compare my experiences to what you need yourself.
Take care.
(I really like to tell more about my experiences on this becaus ihave a lot, if any is interested. But I don't know where would be most appropriate.)
Asger October 4th, 2002, 08:00 AM

About your timing device. If you want something simpler than microprocessors for a start - then how about this :
In your grenade you have an electric flashbulb

from a one-use flashcube) - they are great for ignighting AP, black powder or bulletpowder. They are instant and require little power (unfortunately they are also static
sensitive so take care).
Then you have a capacitor of moderate size (eg. 50V 100uF) They should be very small today and cheap.
And finally a simple circuit that detects the voltage on the capacitor. Once this voltage drops below say 10V the circuit dumps the rest of the charge into the flashbulb.
You then put the grenade in your cannon. Charge it through some contacts to a voltage depending on the range from a table you made of voltages vs. timing vs. range. And
finally arm it since the circuit will try to detonate as long as you are below said 10 V. You must take care of that little flaw.
You vill need a variable powersupply and a digital voltmeter.
Once you fire, the powersupply to the grenade is obviously cut and the capacitor is discharging from some rangedependant value towards the 10 V or whatever limit you set.
You just need enough leftover charge to reliably set off the flashbulb.
The main thing is that you do some testing so you can reproduce timings down to few hundreds of a second. Actually I think this could be a problem. Mostly because the value
of the resistor that discharges the cap. is somewhat temprature dependant.
[ October 04, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Asger ]
BoB- October 8th, 2002, 06:02 PM

The problem with cast projectile casings is that if the explosive/detonator core is not perfectly centered then the flight can be unstable, as the round would be unbalanced. If
you were able to center the core, then this would be ideal, you could cast the shrapnel into the casing, and/or use stronger casings, like bondo, or cement.
You could even attach some fins to some dowel and cast that into the rear of the round.
I've thought about using one of those home-manufactured spudgun darts like on spudtech.com, this would give you more room for electronics and added shrapnel. You could
even use shaped charges. My guess would be that 1 1/4" endcaps would fit in 2" PVC.
[ October 08, 2002, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: BoB- ]
Asger October 23rd, 2002, 09:59 AM

One can buy some quite cheap gadgets that has some LEDs that flash when said gadget is in the vicinity of a transmitting cellphone. Now I'm sure they can easily be modified
to set of a flashbulb instead - so if you imagine you put this device into your spud-grenade and fire it towards an active (communication going on) cellphone, the grenade
should detonate when it comes close enough.
Now I don't know the range wherein this device responds neither if it only responds to the phone while it is ringing or also while a conversation is going on. But I don't suppose
such a piece of cheap electronics can tell the difference.
I will buy one soon and see what potential it has. Maybe one of you guys already have one.
But you get the picture : lure target into a deserted area, make a call to a cellphone carried by target (from a stationary phone ofcourse to avoid premature detonation) and
fire the grenade towards target while target ansvers phone. For better successrate, add impact detonator to grenade too.
[ October 23, 2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Asger ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > New Rimfire! So Ex pensive!
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HMTD Factory Novem ber 30th, 2001, 09:16 AM

R e m e m b e r t h e . 1 7 / 2 2 L R f r o m Aguila I was talking about?
Hornady(which founded the idea of .17 necked

rim fires) caught the idea again and wo r k e d o u t a . 1 7 / 2 2 m ag version.
It is said to have better ballistics than .22m a g . P e r s o n a lly I stick with .223Rem or .22PPC for varm int shoot. Now there isn't
any gun that I know of that is built for .17/22.
Picture of the new Hornady .17/22WMR with A-MAX match bullets.
http://www.acusport.com /web/Hornady17HMR-1 1 - 1 2 . a s p
AR-15 Man D e c e m ber 1st, 2001, 08:50 PM

That sucks. Sounds just like som e s c h e m e t o g e t m o n e y. I don't see anything so special to m ake this worth the price. Oh yea
h a v e y o u s e e n t h e . 4 5 8 S O C O M upper for the AR-15? Now that has som e u s e .
HMTD Factory D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 05:45 AM

.458 SO COM? I havn't really read about it,
is it a subsonic round for silen cers? It
s h o u l d n ' t f e e l g o o d b e i n g h i t b y a n u m ber
that starts with a 4.
In m y first thought th e .17 rim fires

wouldn't be of m uch use. Still there are
people who got tired of "rim fire = .22" and
want to see a bore size their cleaning rod
won't fit in.
T h e s i z e o f t h e . 1 7 H M R d i d r i n g s o m e bell,
so I tried to go through my magazines see if
I can com pare it with the new H&K PDW round
but I can't find the magazine, m aybe later
I'll post it up.
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 05:59 AM

Airgun pellets are .17 7 in size.
I ' v e a l s o s e e n m entioned on another gun forum that there are barrels th at'll squeeze a .22 down to .2, .17 , and even .15.
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com / n b k 2 o o o ) t o d o w n l o a d t h e N B K 2 0 0 0 f i l e s a n d v i d e o s .
EventHorizon D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 08:13 AM

S o m e creative remanufacturing would yeild a round that should penetrate a BPV nicely, an d at som e distance too.
------------------
" C h a n c e f a v o r s a p r e p a r e d m ind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
P G P I D 0 x 1 4 7 C EF54

.17HMR - factory AMAX bullets + mean bullets = 4.5m m H&K PDW rounds = dead cops = yelping in pain with rough prison sex
That's what I thought, except that the last item isn't appealing.

There!
H&K 4.6m m PDW
actual bullet dia = 4.65m m

bullet weight = 25 grains
bullet m aterial : copp er-plated steel, tum ble
-inducing asymm etrical tip
performance in designated firearm :
m uzzle velocity = just under 2 4 0 0 f p s
m uzzle energy = 312 ft/lbs
barrel : polygonal rifling for better gas seal with the use of steel projectiles.
.17HMR
actual bullet dia = .172"

bullet weight = 25 grains (A-MAX)
bullet m aterial : copp er-jacketed, lead core,
polym er tipped (A-MAX)
performance in velocity barrel :
m uzzle velocity = 2550 fps
m uzzle energy = you calculate(350 ft-lb?)
Since the PDW round is fired in a 7" barrel

while the .17 is fired in a velocity barre l,
despite the data shows, these two rounds are
on par with e ach othe r.
In m y opinion the .17 sure can be m a d e i n t o

a PDW round but with m inor disadvantages :
Inherent accuracy : the PDW round has a

stub bier body column , thus the PDW round will
have more consistent powder burning.(No, you
won't care if you are to shoot full-auto.)
Action length \weight : The PDW r o u n d b e i n g

shorter, benefits from reduced length/weight
in m agazine, action, and chamber.(But extra
5 onces = exercise)
R e m anufacture problem : Don't forget the PDW

is a rimless cartridge while the .17HMR is a
rim fire. Kinetic bullet pullers can't work
on a rim fire, there m u s t b e m o n e y i n v e s t e d i n
at least a reloading p ress, special shell
hold er(can't grip the rim ), collet-type
bullet puller , and a custom seater die.
(which costs nothing for a reloader that has
a workshop.)
Cost : .17HMR is expensive, unless Hornady is

willing to sup ply you prim ed cases.(which is
s o m uch cheaper)
You be the judge for if it's worth it to

im p r o v i s e a f u l l - a u t o . 1 7 H M R P D W .
AR-15 Man D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 10:51 AM

W ell first the .458 SO C O M i s a r o u n d d e s i g n e d f o r a s p e c i a l m ade upper for an AR-15. I a m pretty sure it is sub sonic. But the
thing is the round is so m assive. 10 are held in a standard AR-1 5 30 rounder. Now that is im pressive. www.trom ix.com (http://
www.tromix.com ) is the site for the uppers. As for using the .17 rim fire (or whatever it is caled) for a PDW why not use the
7 . 6 2 x 2 5 m m Tokarov round. It can penetrate handgun resistant vests. Or why not just make hi velocity 9m m bullets with .38 0
light weight bullets in IMI black tip sub g u n a m mo. Now it will have short distance but m igh t be able to pentrate

I h e a r d s o m ewhere that a guy in around 19
centries built a barrel that squ e e z e s a l e a d
bullet sm alle r in dia, hoping to maintain
high pressure in the barrel to get better
velocity, but failed cuz there's too m uch
e n e r g y w a s t e d i n s q u e e z i n g t h e l e a d b ullet,
after the bullet exited the barrel, the
bullet is too long to stablize.
D i d s o m e search on the net, this forum is

doin g s o m e talk rega rding .17 rim fires.
http://www.serveroptions.com /ubb/Forum 17/HT ML/0002 68.html
So Volquartsen and Aguila is m a k i n g . 1 7 / 2 2 L R .

Volq uartsen m a k e s b a r r e l s f o r R u g e r 1 0 / 2 2 a n d
A g u i l a l o a d s t h e a m m o. (Prob ably a conversion
barrel only, since the new am m o is the sam e
leng th as old .22LR, action an d m a g a z i n e
s t a y s t h e s a m e.)
O n t h e o t h e r h a n d H o r n a d y i s m a k i n g . 1 7 / 2 2 W MR (.17HMR ). Bo th Marlin and Ruger will offer

guns in the Hornady caliber.(The news is in a
current issue gun magazine)
Acco rding to a m e m b e r o f t h a t f o r u m , s o m e
private am m o m aker is already m a k i n g . 1 7 H M R
for sale (there's your source for prim e d
cases.)

If m emory is right, 7.62Toka, 9mm , 4 . 6 m m HK,
5.7FN all have m uzzle energy above 300ft-lb.
W hat the Toka and 9 don't have are velocity

and thin case body : high velocity bullets ride on flat trajectories. With flatter trajectory, the shoote r c a n e n g a g e l o n g e r
distance without worring about bullet drop.
Thin c a s e b o d y i s g o o d f o r s h o r t m a g a zine.
It ta k e s a l o n g e r m a g a z i n e t o fit 30 fa tter
r o u n d s . M P 5 ( 9 m m ) use 30rd m ag but UMP(.45) use only 25rd m a g - - t h e r e ' s o n e e x a m p l e .
T o k a a n d 9 s u r e c a n p e n e t r a t e b o d y a r m or if
properly doped, letha l at bank-robbing or
thug-plinking distances.
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y H M T D F a c t o ry (edited 12-02-2001).]
AR-15 Man Decem ber 2nd, 2001, 05:12 PM

W ell I am pretty sure the subgun 7.62 Toka will go thru body arm or on it's own. But the rounds that do won't work in a Tokarov
pistol without destorying it only the CZ 25 subgun or CZ-52 (som eone correct m e o n t h e s u b g u n s I t h i n k t h at is the wrong
n u m ber). As for 9m m yea you do lose quite a bit of ran ge. Now here is a n i d e a . T h e 1 0 m m at first was to hot for the FBI so
s o m eone cre ated the 40 Smith and W esson (but with thinner brass so it will Kaboom in Glocks som etim es). W ell later
s o m e o n e t o o k t h e 4 0 S & W an d m ade the .357 Sig which is a bottle necked round . Well why not bo ttle neck 10m m a n d u s e t h e
.357 Sig bullet. Then modify a MAC-10 to use the new round. If som e o n e h a d t h e e q u i p m ent I could see the project going
under $1000 but I m ean it would be worth it. Also I hear the MP-5s in 10m m break the rollers a lot anyone know if that is true.
nbk2000 Decem ber 2nd, 2001, 07:51 PM

T h e . 2 2 4 B O Z u s e s a 5 . 5 6 m m bullet in a necked down 10m m c a s i n g .
http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/boz224.h tm l
T h e y m o d i f i e d a G l o c k 2 0 ( 1 0 m m) to fire these bullets.
http://www.scs.wsu.edu/~pbourque/im a g e s / g u n s / g l o c k b o z . j p g
It'll penetrate 1.4m m titanium plate + 30 layers of kevlar, BP glass, car bodies, etc.
Here's a copy-cat loading that'll work in the CZ-52:
http://www.owlnet.com /quality/223%20Tim b s . h t m
C a s e s p e c s f o r t h e . 2 2 4 B O Z are here:
http://m e m bers.aol.com/varm intline/Ballistics/22-10MMs.GIF
Sm all, fast, and hard = Penetration of JBT BA.
If you know the enem y is arm ed with such weapons (.224), don't even bother wearing a vest since it won't protect you anyways,
and will weigh you down.
Let THEM wear the he avy vests while you dance around them , shooting them with YOUR CZ-52 copy-cat. :)
Rem ember;
Light + Fast = Life
Slow + Heavy = Death
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com / n b k 2 o o o ) t o d o w n l o a d t h e N B K 2 0 0 0 f i l e s a n d v i d e o s .
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y n b k 2 0 0 0 ( e dited 12-02-2001).]
HMTD Factory Decem ber 2nd, 2001, 07:53 PM

My range warden once said so m e t h i n g a b o u t h i s
1 0 m m auto Glock --"Shoots like a rifle !"
T h e 1 0 i s m ore ferocius than 9, but I doubt

it will break H&K rollers--since the same
rolle r is used in HK G3 types to delay 308
blowback.
HMTD Factory Decem ber 2nd, 2001, 08:22 PM

Most agencies are willing to pay and use
necked down versions of existing caliber,
this proved very econom ical since there' will
only be a barrel change.
From the case capacity, 224BOZ will have m ore

punch than 5.7FN or 4.6HK, but will recoil
m ore as well. They said there's a PDW
project involving a short AR-15 cham b e r e d i n
.224BOZ, new toys for you, AR-15 Man .
I a l s o h e a r d t h e S w e d e n h a d n e c k e d d own 9m m
to their favorite 6.5mm , said there will be
a barrel available for Glock. Since I like
6 . 5 m m a s m uch as a Swedish does, I m ight
just want one.
AR-15 Man D e c e m ber 3rd, 2001, 03:54 PM

Now you see why I ha v e h i g h p r a i s e o f t h e C Z - 5 2 . C h e a p e r a n d j u s t a s g o o d . I h a d h e a r d o f t h e . 2 2 4 B O Z b u t n e v e r h e a d
m ore than the fastest real handgun round (sorry Encore s in 300 WIN Mag don't count). NBK you are right som e t i m e s b o d y
armor is just plain USELESS. O ther tim es it is worth its weigth in gold. That is why I TRY to always h ave a rifle with m e but I
know that is impossible and I feel handguns are just tools to get you to your rifle. Now what I am wondering is why som e o n e
would chamb er an AR down to 10m m just to use the 223 round again? I m ean recoil isn't that bad for .223. But I guess som e
REMF cry baby needs one. I have heard of the Swiss bottle necked 9mm . That is great. Maybe it will m ake a lot of military's
change. I know that the G3 uses roller but the sam e rollers as the MP5? I just don't see how that works but if I ever get the
chance to com pare I will. I knew the trigger parts were the same and a few others. Quite a few of the cops in m y a r e a u s e
1 0 m m. I don't see why. But then again my fam ily uses .357s.
SofaKing D e c e m ber 6th, 2001, 02:34 PM

Now if the Glock 18C cam e in 10m m, that would be interesting. But wait it does, b ecaue th ere's a patent for doing that. (there's
a pdf floating around)
On another note there's a con version for the ar-15 in 50AE, the downside is that there's no high ca p m ags. I just think people
like making conversions for the ar-15.
------------------
W ith Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
AR-15 Man D e c e m ber 6th, 2001, 06:22 PM

H a h a h a h a a g l o c k 1 8 i n 1 0 m m? If you didn't have a stock or foward grip your third round would be right between yo ur eyes. Oh
yea about the AR in 50 AE why would you want Hi C ap m a g s ? A l s o a 4 0 r o u n d A R - 1 5 m ag will hold 15 50 AEs. But even if the y
had 30 50 AEs it would be hitting he ground. And with a round like that you follow up shots are slow so a mag change every 10-
15 shots isn't that big of a deal.
HMTD Factory D e c e m ber 13th, 2001, 04:37 AM

Guns for .17 HMR have com e out...
A break action from New England Firearm
Two bolt guns from Marlin
No semi-autos yet...
http://album s.photopoint.com /j/View?u=909904&a=139 26301&p=57218641&Sequence=0&res=high

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > caseless ammunition
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zeocrash March 2nd, 2003, 06:12 PM

I was looking through my newly bought copy of the janes gun reference book (soon to be uploaded to ftp) and came across this
<img src="http://remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11b.gif" alt=" - " />
the heckler and koch g11. this revolutionary gun, fires caseless ammunition (effectivly a bullet embedded in a block of explosive)
I was wondering if anyone knew anymore bout this gun or any other caseless weapons.
Ezekiel Kane March 2nd, 2003, 08:29 PM

Hmm.. found some information on this 'caseless ammunition'
Plenty of analytical data about the G11

<a href="http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/caseless.html" target="_blank">http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/caseless.html</a>
G11 Specifications and diagram

<a href="http://www.shadowsource.org/dragon/g11.html" target="_blank">http://www.shadowsource.org/dragon/g11.html</a>
Apparently the HK G11 is quite an innovation to the world of firearms...
A43tg37 March 2nd, 2003, 08:53 PM

Looks like quite an innovation, true...but caseless cartridges per se aren't anything new. What about the Daisy V/L? It fired a .22 caseless round and was out twenty or thirty
years ago. They occasionally come up for sale on Gunsamerica.com, but aren't even made anymore. I'll scan a page out of Gun Trader's Guide that has a picture and some info
on the V/L and post it to the FTP, as I can't seem to find much online. Also, what about the Voere VEC 91.? Some of its caseless 5.7x26 ammo and details on it can be found at
<a href="http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2300/2384.htm" target="_blank">www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2300/2384.htm</a>
chemwarrior March 2nd, 2003, 10:41 PM

Well, from talking to my grandfather, the main reason the military decided against its use is because it had one of the highest 'backfire' ratings of any of the firearms used at
the time. Also, despite being caseless, the gun itself is heavier than any other firearm of equal size- WITHOUT ammunition.
green beret March 2nd, 2003, 10:57 PM

The new steyr ACR fires sabots (I think) in 5.56mm, I havent got a picture to upload, but I cant remeber, if it has caseless ammo, wait, I think it does. I like the look of that
G11, but is it reliable? I myself am a big fan of the F88 Austeyr, and the new steyr ACR, its a very nice looking weapon, and as far as I know, its quite lightweight.
chemwarrior March 2nd, 2003, 10:58 PM

The newest ones might be, but the originals were heavy as hell!
carbonated March 3rd, 2003, 11:54 PM

This doesn't fit with the G11, but I was thinking of caseless ammunition after reading a section of nbk's .pdf on smokeless powder.
In one example I think SP was added to EtOH and after the material turned stringy and then plasticy, the material was removed from the EtOH and allowed to dry. Some of
the "plastic SP" was molded onto the end of bullets and fired without negative effects. This is all from memory, by the way.
So, perhaps it is possible to place a bullet primer in the "plastic SP" on the back of a bullet (bought or ball bearing) and allow the plastic SP to dry completly. While this may be
poor ammunition, it takes into account that the user may not have access to commercial ammunition.
I_am_the_Black_one March 14th, 2003, 10:33 AM

I know its a bit off topic but where can I get the pdf?
If anyone is interested I have a few AUS army manuls detailing the use and break down of AUG STYERS
More on topic I think there was a M-60 like machine gun that fired caseless rounds. It came out umm.. 97 98 ? its a bit hazy I think it was called a UMPO.. I forget the rest has
any one heard of this weapon? Il have a look for it tomorrow
........................
"The Kewls cower in fear of the Naturelus Bornus Killus" (I do to!!)
[ March 14, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: I_am_the_Black_one ]
Voyager January 10th, 2004, 02:15 AM

Green Beret:
The Steyr ACR wasn't *quite* caseless.
"The Steyr ACR is built around a specially designed cartridge of nominal caliber of 5.56mm. This cartridge has simple, cylindrically shaped plastic case. The fleschette, or dart, is
totally enclosed in the case. Fleschette diameter is about 1.5 mm (.06 inch), lenght is about 41 mm (1.6 inch), weight 0.66 gramm (10 grains). Fleschette is partially enclosed
into discarding sabot, and leaves the muzzle at impressive velocity of 1450 meters per second (4750 fps), still retaining velocity of 910 m/s (2980 fps) at the range of 600
meters. The plastic case had no rim or extracting groove, and priming compound is located annually at the inside wall of the case."
A43tg37:
H&K chased the government business, where Voere chased the civilian market.
The G-11 is preety much discontinued, as I understand it.
Voere is still selling caseless rifles -- but I don't know the process to import one into the United States from Austria.
Voere rifles are online at: http://www.voere.de/waffentechnik.htm
Note: The site is in German
Stormhelm January 10th, 2004, 01:24 PM

There is a good deal of info on the G11 at the HKPRO website: http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm
It deals with various prototypes and different designs of the ammo.
Be sure to check out the LMG11 - the caseless MG.

charger January 26th, 2004, 05:59 PM
Would it be possible to make your own caseless ammunition? I have seen pyrodex pellets for sale and wondered about combining them with a primer and bullet in one
package. They might need reshaping or resizing to work if it is indeed possible.
JoeJablomy February 4th, 2004, 10:24 PM

As one whose perspective on propellant combustion behavior comes from really basic rocketry, I can tell you that your biggest problem with caseless is going to be consistent
burning, at least if you use a monolithic round and not a full-combustible-case with normal powder in it.
It might be that you could make a specially perforated single propellant grain, but it would be really complicated.
The 25mm GAU-7, I think, used basically nitro-paper mache' -they consolidated a bunch of raw nitrated cellulose fibers into a cylinder and put the projectile in the front. The
GAU-7 was cancelled for some fatal flaws I've never heard enumerated, but I suspect that one of them would be that getting the NC fibers to be of consistent quality and
packing density, porosity, etc. for consistent internal ballistics was near to impossible.
One interesting technique I've seen -not applied to caseless, though- is consolidation. The propellant is compressed into a single block.
Just spent half an hour looking for my saved copy of that reference, but I can't even find it on the internet. The idea was, a rocket assisted 120mm projectile extended all the
way back to the base of the case, so they compressed the propellant into a tube with a bunch of lengthwise perforations that fit between the projectile and the case. This is
especially interesting because it apparently used perforated sticks and pressed them solid. It was ignited in two stages, one of which was a few lengths of rapid deflagrating
cord that ran through the longitudinal perforations.
Anyway, I think the idea was that the propellant comes unstuck and burns to propel the projectile, so theoretically it could be used with small arms stuff for caseless ammo.
As for combustible cases, I can of fer this: Soviet combustible cases are made of TNT impregnated paper, and while I havent heard exactly what goes into the American
ones, I suspect they are PVN based. Incidentally, firefox sells PVA. I would probably use some kind of oxidizer and resin impregnated paper myself, although you have to be
careful because the best oxidizers are obviously corrosive. Perhaps someone could dream of a test that would show the behavior of energetic impregnated paper under gun
pressures; that could tell us if oxidizers are needed to consume the paper anyway.
I guess as long as the paper becomes ash and the ash doesnt melt, it should be OK.
One other note on priming: Voere ammo uses a simple patch or electrosensitive priming compound, while some schemes, I think GAU-7 and maybe G11, use plastic
primers that get blown out the muzzle. Electric primers also use Pb styphnate, according to some army group thats looking f or a lead free alternative, so perhaps a spot
of that in a slightly recessed cavity, coated with foil electrodes or some conductive, carbon-filled glaze, could serve.
And although everyone here already knows, the really big problem with caseless guns is sealing the chamber. This is why the big combustible case rounds have case
stubs. Major artillery uses bagged propellant, so the guns have to have sealing systems: 16 guns have something called a mushroom on the front of the breech block
that seals the chamber, although I havent heard what you find on sliding block 155s etc. Obviously, if you cant get a 100% ef fective chamber seal you have to use
ammo that wont light off by accident, like by getting flashed a few times. Of course, it also has to resist cookoff
Spartin13 February 7th, 2004, 12:14 PM

A few years ago i did some reading concering deployment of a caseless battle rifle by at the time West German military. the projectal was to be smaller than the 223. from my
understanding it was tested and ready for deployment. it was stopped when the Berlin Wall came down. Germany at the time felt that the money to have the new weopons
system built,deployed and training would be better used in reunification of Germany. thus is from what i understand is why it is not in current use. hope this helps

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > Stacked Bullets
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john_smith July 23rd, 20 02, 04:2 4 PM

A while back I read about an early (1700-some thing) attem pt of building m ultiple shot weapons, which inco rporated stacking 7
bullets with correspon ding powder charges between them into a m uzlleloaded rifle barrel. It had a flintlock type device that slid
a l o n g the barrel which had sm all holes drilled into it for flame progression. And I also keep hearing about m ultiple shot pen
g u n s . D o e s a n y o n e h a v e i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e s e a n d / o r t h e c o n c e p t i n g e n e r a l ? N e e d l e s s t o s a y t h a t a p e n gun, which is
never very accurate or powerful, would greatly benefit from m ultiple shot capability, and th e use of electric ignition could m a k e
it's construction m uch sim pler than the said XVIIIth century superweapon . On the other hand, if som e t h i n g g o e s w r o n g , a p e n
g u n i s a m ost effective finger rem over...
Zero July 23rd, 20 02, 06:2 9 PM

Hm m. All I know is th at you would need m ad wadding in there to keep your 7 shot gun from becoming a, well, shotgun. And/or
killing you.
~Zero the Inestim a b l e
kvitekrist July 23rd, 20 02, 08:3 1 PM

the O 'Dwyer VLe handgun uses stackin g...
<a href="http://www.m etalstorm.com/" target="_blank">http://www.m eta lstorm .com /</a>
<a href="http://www.m etalstorm.com/12_odwyervle/vlemenu.html" target="_blank">http://www.m etalstorm.com/12_odwyervle/

vlem enu.htm l</a>
s o m e fireworks use it to... rom an cand le? they use sawdust as wadding
Aaron-V2.0 August 2nd, 2002, 01:51 AM

I've read a b it on Stacking in antique firearm b o o k s a n d s e e n a b i t o n t h e History Channe l. Basically they have two flintlocks
placed on the barrel, one in the conventional position and one forward 8 - 10 inches. You could fire single rounds with the
conventional lock and then stack up to 6 or 7 b ullets, powder and waddin g. A dem onstration on the History Channel showed
that it was very sim ilar to a "R oman Candle" in firing tim e , a b o u t o n e s e c o n d b e t w e e n s h o t s .
I've also read that in the Vietnam war they m ade "Multi Bullet" cartridges for the M-60 where the round was split in half so
when fired a short spitzer point and a cylindrical slug would leave the barrel. But that's from a few m o n t h s a g o .
Ron McDonald August 8th, 2002, 05:02 AM

P l e a se do not stack bullets. They have the inte resting habit of h urting the user. There are m uch better ways of acco mplishing
t h e s a m e effects in a safer more efficient m anner. Accquire a sh otgun, they are much more fun, and you can play around with
s o m e intersting loads for the shells.
rjche August 22nd, 2002, 09:56 PM

For 38 cal revolvers, there is a com mercial cartridge with two 000 balls in it, and a private loaded one with 3 000 balls in it.
They are loaded after powder is put in one afte r the oth er till the cartridge is full. Powder is adjusted for the total we ight, not to
e x c e e d s a f e p r e s s u r e s. No powder is between balls. Just stacked balls.
They spread out about 3 inches at ten yards, from a 2 inch bbl revolver, giving more shock power.
S a m e works for 32 ca l revolvers using whicheve r of the balls for buckshot m easures 30 cal.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > .410 shotgun shells
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angelo July 30th, 20 01, 06:1 4 AM

I was just wondering what everyones views were when it com es to .410 shells.
I used to think they were a waste of m o n e y s i n c e t h e y c o s t m o r e t h e n 1 2 g a u g e s h e l l s .

but I must say that m y view has changed now that I have actually fired o ne. The kick is nothing co m p a r e d t o t h e k i c k o f a 1 2
g a u g e . A n d I f i r e d s o m e m o d i f i e d a m m o a n d i t s e e m s that m y m i n d h a s c h a n g e d f r o m 1 2 g a u g e t o . 4 1 0 a s b e i n g t h e i d e a l
a m mo for an imrovised gun.
------------------
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u s e r n u m = 1 3 0 7 4 4 2 6 5 6) | go to the OZ Forum (http://pub75.ezb oard.com / b o z f o r u m 97164)
Heavy Recoil July 30th, 20 01, 02:4 8 PM

W ell, a .410 (which isnt a gauge, its th e calaber of a slug fired from it, its real gauge is 37 "I think ") can also fire 45 long co lt
and with a half ring m ade for securing a rod in a tractor moter, I fired a standard .45 apc sucessfully. 12 gauge fits in 3/4 in.
pipe (.75 is the cal.) 50 cal fits in 1/2 in. pipe, and 410/45 fits in 3/4 in. pipe"I think, again". 12 has m o r e p e l l e t s a n d s p r e a d ,
but 10 8 and 4 have m ore. 45, if you hit som ething, it probibly wont get back up.
------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is m ore of a hobby with m e."' Robert A. Heinlein
Anthony July 30th, 20 01, 06:4 9 PM

.410 are m ore dangerous for using in zip guns because the cartridge generates h igher pressure than the other calibres.
I d o n ' t r e m e m ber exactly why, but it was something to with being a sm aller calibre, to have a sim ilar shot pattern as larger
calibres, the load is longer, thus taking more pressure to propel it at a decent velocity.
T h i s c a m e f r o m a book on pistols which had a section on zip guns, including a .410 pistol.
A-BOMB July 30th, 20 01, 09:3 5 PM

I own m any .410 caliber guns and they are the best guns I have next to my .215 sniper rifle and my brown i n g d o u b l e a u t o ,
the cycler bore guns fire .45 long colt and the rifled slugs in the shell work wonders on 1/2 inch steel plate I love those guns!
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
SawedOff8gaugeman August 14th, 2001, 03:18 PM

I've understood a .410 derringer m ight be a cool weapo n(=dam n powerful for its size). But they are practically banned here!!
http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/m ad.gif Dam n!
twinkle August 16th, 2001, 06:59 PM

As Anthony said the pressure of this bullet is m uch high e r t h e n o f a . 1 2 g a u g e V 0 o f t h e
bullet / lead shot is a bout 1200 f/s (366 m/s) it was often used in the past for poaching while you could shoot with a pistol
type of shotgun with a shortened barrel which m ake it easy to hide ,it was used for small gam e you can use it ,it is a good
bullet but the gun m ust be of good quality .
Tony Montana August 17th, 2001, 05:26 AM

M a r k " C h o p p er" R ied, carried a small .410 shotgun, and a small .38 beretta and few others one including a .44 m a g n u m !
He actually e nded up getting charged with murder, for shooting som eone in the face with a .410
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y T o n y M o n t a na (edited August 17, 2001).]
Begste January 12th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 6 : 3 6 P M

I was just wondering what everyones views were when it com es to .410 shells.
I used to think they were a waste of m o n e y s i n c e t h e y c o s t m o r e t h e n 1 2 g a u g e s h e l l s .

but I must say that m y view has changed now that I have actually fired o ne. The kick is nothing co m p a r e d t o t h e k i c k o f a 1 2
g a u g e . A n d I f i r e d s o m e m o d i f i e d a m m o a n d i t s e e m s that m y m i n d h a s c h a n g e d f r o m 1 2 g a u g e t o . 4 1 0 a s b e i n g t h e i d e a l
a m mo for an imrovised gun.
There are a few revolvers that shoot .45LC and .410. The D-m a x a n d T h u n d e r f i v e c o m e t o m i n d . Y o u c a n m a k e s h o t s h e l l s
from several .45 rim m e d c a s e s . O l d s h o t g u n s h e l l s u s e d t o b e m a d e o u t o f b r a s s . B u t i t w a s u n e s s e s s a r y s o t h e y u s e p l a s t i c
with a little brass on the bottom . There are com bat loads for .41 0 that shoot 5 #000 buck (.38 caliber) and even with a rifled
barrel, thats fairly "overkill" fo r h o m e d e f e n s e . I m a g i n e that in a snubno se. I think the only reason they dont m a k e o n e
(saving the Thunder five) is because you need consistent powde r ignition with the .410 shell but th ats easy to fix with a pinch
of fast burning powder at the bottom of the casing. Shotshells are easy to load for .410, you dont need a crim p. Plus you can
shoot things like arrows or bolts (wooden slugs)..
Begste January 12th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 7 : 0 8 P M

I've understood a .410 derringer m ight be a cool weapo n(=dam n powerful for its size). But they are practically banned here!!
http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/m ad.gif Dam n!
Your m issing out. We can get kits here that are "legal" to buy without a FFL. You just have to weld the side plates on. There
are several different m o d e l s . D o u b l e b arrel, single shot, double barrel with .22 on top, 9 shot .22 m anually indexing revolver,
full sized shotguns with folding stock a nd black powder versions. The best one they have is the .410 derringer but with a 13 1/
2 length. Looks just like a sawed off shotgun but is actually a pistol. Fires only one barrel at a tim e but would do som e serio us
d a m age at close range with the right load.
http://image s . g u n s a m erica.com/uploa d/976267730-1.jpg
Thats the single barrel m o d e l .
Dave the Rave January 13th , 2 0 0 5 , 1 2 : 3 6 P M

.410 or the plain .36 gauge is THE best calliber to improvised weapons or hom e defenses. It dont have an high kick, but its
an fair load to short distances and we can use several n ice kinds of am m o, includ ing the five 000 load and the .45 long colt
t h a t c a n b e d e a s i l y o n m o s t o f t h e g u n s . H e r e i n B r a z i l w e h a v e a n " h o m e d e f e n s e " a m m unition that its m ore than 100 very
s m a ll copper spheres, heavy enough to kill at short distance, ligth enough to not bypass doors and walls or to be shot as an
warning...
I own an old "Lerap" single sh ot that can sing nicely with the hot long colt, very precisely d espite the fact thats not rifled.
Another piece its an double barrel .10 inches gun that I can shot both barrels at the same tim e and no big recoill.
I t s a n c h e a p a m m o, at m y country it can be bough for less than c$ 15 and no license required, and the spent cases can be
reloaded till the end of the wo rld as the plastic deformation is m inim al.
I used to reload with rock salt, sm all lumps the size of peas, dipped in wax to prevent mo isture accuiring, to shot at the little
garden burglars or the kids who tried to trespass m y hom e, with heavy fishing lead, with slugs m a d e b y m yself with copper
t u b i n g a n d m elted lead, with wooden saboted .22 calliber flechetes and the list goes on...
Practicaly any load that could bed on b igger callibers can be used on the ubidiquous .410, cheaper and with less recoill, at le ast
for my standards. Som e o t h e r n i c e i d e a s o n r e l o a d e d a m mo (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /sh owthread.php?t=3350) with
hum ble adds by myself...
Lurking_Shadows January 23rd , 2005, 01:54 AM

Just a though, see how well a 30-30 ro und fits into a .410.
It'll work in a pince.
Third_Rail January 23rd , 2005, 04:48 AM

I h a v e h a d s o m e experiences with .410 shotshells. My first experience was from an old pump-action shotgun, and the .410
proved to be a wonderful thing.
M y s e c o n d e x p e r i e n c e , m uch less pleasant, was getting hit with pellets that bounced back out of a .410/.45 derringer, becau se
they had failed to penetrate into soft pineboard. They left small dents, a nd that's it.
In m y view, .410 is useless unless the barrel is long enough for the velocity to bu ild up to acceptable levels, which negates the
a d v a n t a g e s o f c o n c e a l m ent.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > New rimfire ammo - Archive File
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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 09:10 PM

HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 26, 2001 02:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aguila will be introducing three new rimfires
soon(with compatible firearms.)
"Goliath" (heavy weight .22mag)
".223 rimfire" (I have no idea or info about what this is. It might look like a .223 remington.....or a banana.)
".17 rimfire" (or 17/22LR)
From what I eavesdropped from a rimfire forum the .17rimfire is based on .22LR and can fly
at 1900fps.
Volquartsen Custom will be making Ruger 10/22 chambered in this caliber. Another manufacturer will be making Ruger MK II chambered for .17/22LR
I havn't heard anything from major gun manufacturers' response to this new caliber yet. (Should be just a barrel changing job, don't worry)
I assume the new .17 bullet will be different than .17 bullets for .17 centerfires because
it's going to be a rimfire bullet, like a mini .22LR bullet. So there's a chance that the new .17 will be something other than
.172 centerfire, jacketed bullet.
Will that .17 bullet like your .178/.179 airgun bore? You'll have to wait till more info is available. Or I'll measure the real dimension of the bullet when I can get some.
Before that there's time for you airgun FIENDS to think about how to re-chamber that
beat-up old airgun under your bed into a unregistered "cartridge processor".
IMO side-lever airguns are more possible to turn into a successful firearm since the breech will not blast loose or blast open under high pressure like a break-action airgun.
Did I mention some of you people are really

airgun FIENDS?
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 26, 2001 09:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A .25 acp round will fit perfectly into a .25 air rifle barrel with minimal machining. I think that would be a little better. I wonder where could you get one of these barrels from
without attracting attention ?
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
posted February 26, 2001 04:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Airgun bores, re-chamber, modified firing mechanism.
Where can you find a ".25 airgun barrel" without attracting attention?
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
posted February 26, 2001 05:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some updates :
Workers at Aguila got over with the strike,
the first 25 million .17/22LR will be in the US in March.
The .17/22 will use old magazines as is except for Ruger MK IIs where the magazine lips will need to be changed.
zaibatsu March 18th, 2003, 11:55 AM

Just to clarify, I believe the .17 rimfire is based on a .22 Mag case necked down to .17 rather than a .22lr.
irish March 19th, 2003, 06:42 AM

Zaibatsu is right about the magnum bit, below is a link that has a pic of them.
<a href="http://www.impactguns.com/store/hornady_17vmax.html" target="_blank">http://www.impactguns.com/store/hornady_17vmax.html</a>
they do look a bit like a mini .223 in rimfire.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > .17 HRM ? I want one
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A-BOMB March 14th, 2002, 12:06 PM

Have any of you guy heard of this new cartige for Horna day(sp?)? W ell I just got m y new issue of The Riflem an (NRA
m agizine), and this cartige looks sweet.
Now let m e list the sp ecs
Bullet .17 cal. (.172 actual)
weig ht 17 grains
velocity 2455 f.p.s
range 1.5 m i l e s
Oh and I forgot its based on a necked down .22m ag shell.
It has less wind drift than a .2 2 W M R , at the sam e r a n g e .

And it drops about 3 inches at 250 yards instead of the .22m a g s 5
and it has more inpact strenght at the same range as the .22m a g
(all ranges are 250 yards)
I want one so what do you guys think of it?
<sm all>[ March 14, 2 0 0 2 , 1 1 : 0 7 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : A - B O M B ] < / s m all>
Anthony March 14th, 2002, 07:50 PM

Can 17gr really deliver m uch shock/knock down to a hum an target?
Madog555 March 14th, 2002, 08:17 PM

sounds cool, i always wanted a .17
xoo1246 March 14th, 2002, 08:20 PM

Nearby tissues will destroyed by the chockwave causing m assive internal bleading.

I'll scan the pages from the m a g i z i n e . A n d d o e s anyone know if you can link pictures from the FTP ?
Ctrl_C March 14th, 2002, 10:46 PM

yes you can. i do it all the time and it doesnt seem to bring too much traffic.

Alrig ht heres the links to the scanned pages but be warned they are big som e o f t h e m because they need the best resoultio n
to be able to be read
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Upload s=-/.17%20HMR/cover.gif" target="_blank">cover.gif</a>
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Upload s=-/.17%20HMR/one.gif" target="_blank">page one.gif</a>
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Upload s=-/.17%20HMR/two.gif" target="_blank">page two .gif</a>
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Upload s=-/.17%20HMR/three.gif" target="_blank">page three.gif</a>
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Upload s=-/.17%20HMR/four.gif" target="_blank">page four.gif</a>
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Upload s=-/.17%20HMR/five.gif" target="_blank">page five.gif</a>
<sm all>[ March 14, 2 0 0 2 , 1 0 : 2 4 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : A - B O M B ] < / s m all>
BaD SeeD March 14th, 2002, 11:46 PM

P e r s o n a l l y I d o n ' t s e e m uch use in the .17hrm but a friend of mine is a big fan of 22 m a g s , a n d i s b u y i n g o n e . H e a l r e a d y h a s
it ordered, and i think will get it som e tim e this m onth. I'll probably shoo t it with him the first day he gets it, and i'll let you
guys know how well (or not) it works.
Personally th e only reason i shoot a 22 rimfire is for the econom y of it. A brick of rem ington thunderbolts can be bought for
l i k e $ 8 . 0 0 o n s a l e . T h a t s 5 0 0 r o u n d s u n d e r 2 c e n t s p e r s h o t . 2 2 m agnum rounds cost about $9.00 for 50 rounds, and this n ew
.17hrm is going to be what? About $14.00 for 50? For that kind of price, in a small caliber application.... I'll stick with the .223.
More power, longer range, lower cost, and reloadable ca s e s .

There is no choice to make there.
Bitter March 15th, 2002, 10:37 AM

I should think that plentiful supply is also a factor favouring the .223 aswell.
A-BOMB March 15th, 2002, 11:39 AM

Did you even read the page? It a varm it round, not for a m-16 or g36.
I like it presonly because of its higher velocity and lower wind drift and drop but the sam e hittin power as a .22m a g .
DBSP March 15th, 2002, 07:12 PM

T h e r e m ington thunderbolt sucks. The best .22 I've found is the remington yellow jacket, it has far the best accuracy i've had
in m y 22LR (Brno 452 varmint) and it has a very good kill action on smaller animals (varm ints). I know this is off topic but I
had to say it.
As I see it th e 22 only has the disadvantages of being wind sensitive
and having a bad tradgecory. I've been thinking of buying a 6-1 8x40 with paralax and target turrets, that might help the
tradgecory thing.
T h e . 1 7 H R M h a s a V O of 2550 f.p.s how much is that in m/s. One thing that definately is better with the .17 than the .22 is
that the high er VO wich m a k e s i t p o s s i b l e t o u s e " r e a l " b u l l e t s i n s t e a d o f t h e o r d i n a r y . 2 2 P b l u m b s . T h e V - m a x i s a g o o d
bullet and probably fits the calibre quite well. I recently found a ruger K77 zvbs heavy varmint 22-250 for sale. That would be
nice to have, 1200 m/s and acuurate to 400+ meters. That way I could skip the .22 but the .22 is still my favourite since it's so
cheap that you shoot all day, unless you're a m ilioner it's quite hard to shoot the .17 HRM all day.

Ya DBSP that is good that it shoot a re al bullet, and BadSeed the fucks up with you brick of .22's? I get 1,0 0 0 R e m ington
yellowjackets and vipers for th a t m u c h a n d t h a t f o r m e i s e x s p e n c i v e
m any because I by in bulk and get 5,000 for 25$.
nbk2000 March 16th, 2002, 01:55 AM

"A range of 1.5 m iles". Yeah, at 45 degree elevation and absolutely no chance of hitting the target, let alone hurting it.
For a .22, try using Triton Q uik-Shoks. The slugs are three pieces of lead that are swaged into one bullet. On im pact, it blows
apart into the three p ieces which go every which way inside the target.
A .17 varm int rifle m ight have applications for short range sniping. Varm int rounds are very high velocity which cause them to
(essentially) vaporize into dust. Meaning no ba llistics.
Also, being of small caliber, it's m uch easier to silence than a larger caliber, thus much ea sier to avoid drawing attention.
R e m ember, air guns firing pellets have been known to kill, so an actual firearm can easily kill a human too , if a decent target
is hit.

5,000 (thousand) for $25.00?????
W here the hell do you buy your am m o ???
Y o u a i n t g o i n g t o g e t 5 0 0 0 b u llets, let alone the rest of the case. I m ean just the bullets, your not going to get for 25 bucks
around here.
And who was talking for hunting anyway guys. If i'm going after varmints (usually racoons) with m y 22lr i shoot CCI Stingers.
W hy in the hell pay a higher price if yo ur just plinking?

W ho gives a fuck what the knockdown power, and penetration of your bullet is? PAPER DOSN'T BLEED! I hardly ever get duds
out of a brick of thunderbolts, and as for accuracy, at 75 yards i can fire a ten shot group and cove r the results with a quarter.
Thats plenty accurate if you ask me.
And i'm serious telling me where you get them for that price. I'll order 20,000 right now.

Hey I'm serious! If you can get am mo that cheap I want to know W HERE!
I've never seen prices like that. $8.00 for thunderbolts is the cheapest you'll find in NY.
And the CCI Stingers are about $7.00 - $8.00 for a box of 50.
If you know where to beat that, post it.

Sorry BadSeed I don't get them from a store or website I get them from o n e o f m y cousin s freinds that has a .22lr gattling
g u n . H e b o u g h t a h u g e s h i p m ent (like 25,000 shells from rem in gton) of all kinds of .22 shell a wh i l e b a c k b e c a u s e h e m ight
go out and shoot a 1,000-2,000 shell just going out to the range. W ell he m ight sell you som e shells but I won't give you his
telophone number right now I'll ask him first to marrow or the next day. If he said s yes I'll give you his e-m ail (thats if he still
has one still? :confused: ) And he is in the U S.
BaD SeeD March 18th, 2002, 10:23 AM

W hat the fuck A-Bomb?
You rip on m e for the price I spend on am mo and tell u s all how you can get it for so m uch less, better amm o and all. How you
can get twice as m uch for the sam e price, actually m ore, 5000 for $25.00?
LOL
Now that som eone corners you and wants to kn ow W HERE you got them, all the sudden its a deal that was only for you. No
store, no website.
A cousins friend?
LOL
Pretty suspicious. Sounds to m e like your just plain FULL-OF-SHIT.
DBSP March 18th, 2002, 12:02 PM

Hey badseed I'll beat you on the stingers I get them for 6.5$ at
Jakt och fiske specialisten in sweden!!!
BadSeed, are you 18 ?. How m uch are you willing to pay for shipping? And how many rounds do you want? And wheres your
closest FLL because he'll have too have them s h i p p e d t o o n e b e cause he doesn't what to get sued and what kind he has three
kind s vipers, cyclons,and yellow jackets and do you what them in the boxes or in a drum? PM (private m e s s a g e ) m e t o t e l l m e
the specifics.
BaD SeeD March 19th, 2002, 09:00 AM

I'm 27, and m y next door neighbor ha s an FFL.
I can also get just about anything wholesale, as he and I are very good friends. And even he has NEVER se en prices like you
m ention.
For those kinds of prices I could get a handfull of friend s together and we'd place an order for a quarter m i l l i o n o f t h e d a m n e d
things to offset the price of shipping. Those prices are absolutly unheard of anywhere in or around New York State. Anyone else
on this forum seen prices even rem otely close to 5000 rounds for $25.00?
And DBSB that m ay be right, but I have no clue what the conversion is to Am erican Dollars.
And either way, even at $8.00 for 500 rounds o f thunderbolts, thats chea p e r t h a n s h o o t i n g a C O 2 p e l l e t g u n . W h e n y o u
consider the price of pellets and CO2, .22's are cheaper.
DBSP March 19th, 2002, 10:28 AM

1 Us dollar is 10,5 swedish kronor. I get the stingers for 65kr wich m eans: 65/10,5=6,19 Us dolars!!
A n d t h e n I g e t s o m e p u l l e d o f f t h a t a m m ount since I'm a good customer, If you rate his custum ers by age and how m uch they
buy
I'm at the top of that list.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Light Gas Bullet
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MrSamosa November 9th, 2002, 01:37 AM

Alright, this is my first attempt at Improvised Weaponry - be gentle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
<img src="http://MrTea.50megs.com/LGB.GIF" alt=" - " />
This is an attempt to make the Light Gas Gun concept, that Anthony brought up in the "Penetrating Thick-Skinned Targets" thread, more practical and usable. From the picture,
you can probably see how this is supposed to work: Primer goes off, sets off the main charge, expanding gasses push the piston forward, piston compresses the gas, breaks
the weakened metal, and the projectile is fired. The Stopper's purpose is to stop the piston from flying out of the cartridge, thus making the cartridge's ejection much cleaner.
The Explosive that is used could probably be anything - High order or low order. While most light gas guns use gunpowder or a hydrocarbon, I was thinking more along the
lines of a High Explosive such as RDX or PETN...but maybe I'm being a bit adventurous.
For the piston, perhaps lead would be a good choice of material due to its high density.
The actual gas that is used would probably be Nitrogen, due to the way that I imagine the projectile being built: Primer is loaded, followed by the Explosive, then the piston on
top, and the Liquid "Gas" poured in, projectile is placed on top, projectile is attatched to the cartridge. Nitrogen would be ideal due to the fact that Liquid Nitrogen is readily
available.
The purpose of the Weakened Metal is to serve as the rapture point on the bullet; the point that gives in to the high pressure. Therefore, it breaks in a predictable way,
releasing the bullet down the barrel.
Unfortunately, this will not include the portion of the Light Gas Gun that creates a vacuum in front of the projectile...unless you are firing it in Space :) .
What kinds of muzzle velocities can be expected from this idea? I'm not expecting the 7km/sec mark, but hopefully something higher than the usual speed of bullets. Ideally,
this could serve as a cheaper replacement to the high-caliber rounds... Anyhow, do you see this as having much potential?
Zach November 9th, 2002, 02:10 AM

It sounds/looks like it would work pretty well, to me. Although I don't know anything about it would actually work, the idea looks good. I think a couple of problems you would
run into would be:
+ The weaker metal behind the projectile - how would you ensure the metal would lose integrity (that looks nerdy) at the same place, every time? I don't know if where it
gives out matters on the trejectory of the projectile, due to the fact that its in a barrel to guide it.
+ Piston - I think the piston would deform if made from lead; maybe hardened lead? (Antimony added I think) Steel might be your best bet.
Qs I've got - Does the shell/casing extend over the projectile?
how does the vaccume infront of the projectile affect it?
Would the barrel of a gun be able to contain that much pressure?
[ November 09, 2002, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Zach ]
pyromaniac_guy November 9th, 2002, 02:36 AM

unless I'm missing something here, your projectile is only going to be accelerated while the propellent is pushing the piston towards the stopper, ie not a very short distane, and
you will end up with a very high pressure resivour of proppelant gas that isnt accelerating your projectile... not very efficent for making a round go fast :(
in a conventional firearm the round is being pushed out the barrel throughout the entire trip out of the barrel.. your design doesnt do this...
Anthony November 9th, 2002, 02:05 PM

I've got to agree there. I think you might just have found a less efficient way of transfering the energy from the propellant to the round. Also, I may be wrong here, but I think
the use of a light gas (e.g. hydrogen) is important. IIRC due to the fact that you can pack more molecules of a light gas into a given volume at a given pressure, so it stores
more energy.
The purpose of evacuating the barrel is to eleminate air-resistance in the barrel, which is a lot more of a problem in a barrel than it is when the projectile is flying through the
air. In a barrel, the projectile has to push all of the air in the barrel, along its length and out of the muzzle.
MrSamosa November 9th, 2002, 02:19 PM

The real problem that I see with the design is the high explosive or the extremely high-pressure gas causing the cartridge to explode, thus damaging the whole weapon.
The casing would not extend over the projectile, rather it would be attatched to the projectile by a strip of weakened metal. The picture I provided above is not counting in any
specific measurements, it is more of a case of me putting an idea into a picture. The stoppers would probably be closer to the back of the projectile, so that the piston has
more room to travel and build the gas up to a higher pressure. The reason I thought that a High Explosive would be best suited for this purpose is because of how quickly it
releases gasses and, applied to this situation, would push the piston forward.
Pyromaniac- I'm not sure if you caught this or not, but as the piston moves forward, the gas reaches extraordinary pressures. I believe in some light gas guns, they've turned
Hydrogen pressurized Hydrogen to the point that it becomes solid (anyone confirm this?). Seeing as the cartridge is not suited to handle these sorts of pressures, it is going to
burst. And with the structure weakened at specific points (i.e.: the points attatching the cartridge to the projectile), we can predict which portions will give in to the pressure
first. As the weaker metal raptures, it separates the projectile from the cartridge and the High-Pressured gas should propel it down the barrel.
Another advantage I see to such a bullet now is little to no Muzzle Flash: High Explosives are not known for their pretty fireballs, and the true propellant in this bullet is mere
Nitrogen Gas.
EDIT: I made this post while Anthony was, so I did not get to see his <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . Isn't Nitrogen a light gas? I believe it was
listed in the list of potential gasses to be used in a Light Gas Gun. Although it was not the best choice (that goes to Hydrogen, but I have not heard much of Liquid Hydrogen), it
still worked pretty well.
In this design, the real work horse is not so much the explosive, but the gas... How much do you expect the air resistance to slow the projectile? Would it reach a point that,
upon exiting the barrel, it has ordinary muzzle velocities? (Sorry, I do not know much about Physics =\)
[ November 09, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]
Mr Cool November 9th, 2002, 02:41 PM

You couldn't use a HE, it'd crack/shatter or otherwise destroy your gun.
A light gas is needed, that's why they're called "light gas guns" and not "plain-old ordinary air guns". Well, they would work with nitrogen, but wouldn't be anything spectacular.
Helium is normally used since hot hydrogen can make steel brittle.
I don't think light gas guns could make solid hydrogen, since the compression will raise the gas to thousands of degrees C, well above the critical temperature of hydrogen
(which is a very cold emperature), so it couldn't even be liquefied no matter how much you compress it.
"In this design, the real work horse is not so much the explosive, but the gas..." Wrong (although I kinda see what you're trying to say I think). All the energy comes from the
explosive, through the gas, with resulting losses due to heating etc. You'd be able to get more energy just by using the explosive, but for a higher velocity the light gas gun (or
two-stage light gas gun, as here) concept is used because normal propellants aren't suitable for high velocities.
Basically, with practical round lengths you'd be unable to achieve the compression needed for a weapon that is better than conventional ones. You need the gas to be able to
fill the barrel and still be at at least several atmospheres of pressure.
vulture November 9th, 2002, 07:02 PM
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> IIRC due to the fact that you
can pack more molecules of a light gas into a given volume at a given pressure, so it stores more energy<hr /></blockquote>Not true. One mole of hydrogen gas takes up as much space as one mole of Radon gas at the same temperature and pressure.
pV = nRT <=> pV/RT = n where n is the number of moles of any given gas.
firebreether November 9th, 2002, 08:20 PM

The reason they use hydrogen is because light gases have higher speeds of sound. The expansion of the gas will only really be able to make it up to the speed of sound, after
that some funky shit goes on :p also, higher temp gases also raise the speed of sound. So, H2 mixed with high temp = the possibility of some insanely high
muzzle velocities which is why they are being researched/used
spydamonkee November 9th, 2002, 10:49 PM

why not use a far more simpler aproach to this idea
take a 30-06 for an example.load one round into the breach then fill the barrel with your light gas then force another projectile half way down the barrel
--------------------------------------------------
: :D %%%%%%%%%%%%%D
--------------------------------------------------
Bullet : :D , light gas %%%%, projectile
you could also some how vacume and seal the last half of the barrel to rid it of air resistance. barrel might just stand up to the extra pressure, of course testing on this would
be done remotly i assume.
just my 2 cents
[ November 09, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]
pyromaniac_guy November 9th, 2002, 11:15 PM

Mr samosa,
I do know a tiny bit about light gas guns, and my issues with your design are two fold.
First I thin you are rgeatly overestimating the amount of work that can be done by the gas resivour. All of the research with light gas guns i have read about used huge
volumes of gas to do the work. unless you plan on having a round for a 30-06 sized projectile that is 10ft long and 100mm in diameter, i dont think the gas will do anything for
you.
Secondly, all you are doing is conveying kinetic energy from the rapidly expanding combustion gasses of a propellent to a projectile, via the gas. if you have the ability to
release the energy stored in the gas resivour much more quickly than burning a propellent, then you ahve the chance to accelerate the projectile faster than the propellant
would. but remeber the conservation of mass energy.. since the system is far from ideal it's not going to be very efficent, therefore even though you might have the ability to
propel rounds fast, it's going to come at the expense of requiring a lighter round...
Anthony November 10th, 2002, 12:21 AM

firebreether, I'd be rather surprised if expanding gases were limited to the speed of sound, otherwise compressed air guns wouldn't be able to accelerate projectiles >mach1
- which they do.
Vulture, I don't doubt that you're right on this. My reference was that a compressed air gun, which releases a metered volume of gas at a set pressure, will impart considerably
more energy to a projectile when filled with helium, than air, for the same fill pressure.
Snapy December 20th, 2002, 04:57 PM

I dont mean to flame on my first post,but as spydaamonkey said, the strait powder/projectile will give the projectile a fair bit more energy.I supose the folowing could be a
good tradeof:
------------------
ccccccccccccc$$pppp
------------------
c = powder
$= gas
p= projectile
I just thought of this but this might add some punch.Fill the top of the powder with a heavy smoking making powder(pardon me,enlisgh is not my main language).Leave a
small vacuum between that and the projectile.This would generate some gas and give the extra thrust you'r looking for.
john_smith December 20th, 2002, 07:50 PM

This won't work. First of, the sole reason for using the light gas is it's greater escape velocity. After about 8.000fps(?) common propellant gas can't even get out of it's own
way, let alone accelerate a bullet, so propellant is used for compressing the light gas instead, and this in turn for pushing the bullet. Because the compressing piston can't move
faster than the escape velocity of propellant gas (actually less), it has to be of much greater diameter than the bullet, thus necessitating a bottlenecked type chamber (In
actual light gas guns, the "bottleneck also acts as piston stopper). As most of the energy for this thing is still provided by the propellant, you'd need a huge powder charge.
Also, if I remember correctly, the minimal recommended barrel length for this was 200x the calibre(bullet).
nbk2000 December 30th, 2002, 02:30 AM

I found this little animated GIF that shows the operating principle behind the light gas gun.
<img src="http://www.emi.fhg.de/Abteilungen/Impaktphysik/LGG_20_Bilder.gif" alt=" - " />
vulture December 30th, 2002, 05:26 AM

Am I correct if I assume this thing has forward "recoil" because of the piston being stopped in the barrel?
Jacks Complete December 2nd, 2003, 06:54 PM

To correct a few things in this thread:
Normal nitro-based propellant runs out at velocities far below those you can get from a light gas gun. The gasses are just too heavy.
The easy way to think of this is like electronics. The huge BP charge is like a lead acid battery, which pumps up a capacitor (the light gas), which then discharges really fast.
The pressure and heat builds right up, then the disc ruptures, letting the hot light gas (hydrogen is 7km/s and helium is 4 km/s) rush up the barrel, pushing the projectile ahead
of it.
It is kind of like an air rifle.

btw, air rifles cannot fire projectiles faster than the speed of sound without dieselling. The reason for a few systems being apparently able to, is that they are using hotter air,
from whatever source. This means it travels faster than the air outside the barrel, and hence you get the crack when the pellet hits the slower moving air!
There is a way to get even higher velocities. Most boats now tack across the wind, rather than just letting the wind push them forwards. This is because the aerofoil shape of
the "wing" (sail) causes lift, and this will pull/push the boat faster than the wind is actually travelling. The same trick can be used in LGGs, and velocities up to 15km/s have
been reported.
As for fielding one, well, they take a while to get set up, and the one I saw (honestly) was about 30 ft long, two feet thick, and was being used to shoot things to see what
happened. I can't say what or where, though. Trust me, it was huge, and bolted to lots of concrete.
The barrel was 15ft long, but thinner. The burst discs were precision cut things about 2 mm thick, and the projectile did 2800 metres per second. My flippant response was that
my 7.62 could do that. Then I realised I had just said something really dumb... 2800 ft/s is my rifle. This gun was three times faster. It was also firing a projectile ten times
heavier, iirc. The guy told me how they got the army to stuff a naval 15" gun with propellant to see what they could do, but it blew itself to bits before it got near 2800m/s.
This gun was running Helium, btw, and was dialed right down.
The support equipment was extreme, and so was the four foot thick blast wall. It seems that should the disc ever hold, the piston would come back, or else the gun would
burst. Which would be bad!
ossassin December 3rd, 2003, 01:56 AM

I just suggest that you actually insert the bullet into the casing, which is the customary method. Otherwise, it looks feasible. I still don't understand why you'd do this when you
can use a conventional round, though. The bullet creates most of the sonic boom, not the gases. If you're that worried about the gases making noise, make a supressor.
apathyboy December 3rd, 2003, 02:41 AM

This is an interesting site, it has some info on actual experimental gas guns, maybe you can do something with it
http://yarchive.net/space/exotic/light_gas_gun.html
actually, theres some good info (I think) on the whole thing http://yarchive.net/
Jacks Complete December 6th, 2003, 01:02 PM

Bizzarely, I met a man who might be able to help with this project. Turns out he is a hydrogen specialist!
If I can work anything out, I will post about it.
Please note that metal and hot hydrogen don't go together well. Look up "Hydrogen embrittlement" on goggle. I am also rapidly coming to the conclusion that the LLG only
works by being enormously strong and heavy, so a small version could never be made. :(
Problems to be solved:
Hydrogen is a bugger to keep trapped, as the molecules are really small, and so they even get into teh metal lattice and cause embrittlement after a while - not good for
storage of cartridges, as they would become brittle, and you might find they had leaked away, meaning you had a dud.
The ratio of propellant and first chamber to the second chamber needs to be high. Someone quoted 200x. This might be excessive, but it might not be. So for a .17 Bee round
(4.5mm), you would need a 35mm piston of the same length, by my calc. I don't know how to work out the lengths, though.
It would be a bugger to move this thing, as the barrel is going to be pretty long, and recoil will likely NOT be man-sized. As a quick calc for helium as your gas (4000 m/s top
speed) running at "just" 75% (3000m/s) I reckon a 60 grain bullet should do (some kind of Tungsten rod) the KE of the bullet will be
3.88 grams @ 3000 m/s -> 38571 Joules or 28448 ft-lbs
or twice that of a .50 (18218J for a hot round)
In a 5 Kg rifle, that is just 2.32 m/s of recoil!

For comparison, a No.4 7.62 weights 4.11 Kg and recoils at 2m/s, for a little over 3352 J a shot.
Obviously, this only works for light, tiny calibre rounds, anything heavier than 60 grains is going to need a much heavier rifle. Mind you, making an LLG as light as 5Kg is likely
impossible!
Do we have any engineers on here who could do the calculations, and work out what sort of pressure, etc. would be the upper limit? I have seen proof marks that go as high
as 20 tonnes per square inch, which is the standard pressure for a 7.62 rifle, but does anyone know what, for example, .338 Lapua Magnum is proofed to?
What is the maximum pressure that modern high-strength steel can take before yeilding?
Also, does anyone know what an "AGARDograph" is? One of the most cited references in LLG things is "A. Seigel, "The Theory of High Speed Guns," AGARDograph 91, 1965",
but I have no idea what this even is!
keith December 8th, 2003, 01:55 AM

I can't even imagin the wear and tear on this type of system. How doesnt the piston slamming down at well over 2000fps destroy the gun?

That is a very good point.
Logically, the answer is that the piston is already decelerating, as it is using its energy to compress the light gas. Just before the piston stops, and shoots backwards, the seal
ruptures, and the bullet gets blown forward. The piston then continues to slow, but not as rapidly, and then probably starts to get pushed backwards a bit as the hot gunpowder
charge starts to cool.
Getting this to happen might be somewhat tricky.
keith December 10th, 2003, 01:41 AM

Ok, now where does the 80,000PSI of gun powder propellant go? 80,000PSI is the standard pressure rating for medium bore rifles ie. 30-06, 7mmRem.Mag., 30-30, and so on.
After the gas pushes the projectile out the gun would become a very big pipe bomb. Even if the gass rapidly cooled(which it wouldnt!) there would still be around 60,000PSI in
the chamber.
This design is new to me and seems unefficient but with more research could become quite useful.
Does the military use this for anything?

The military use them for studying hypervelocity projectiles, impacts at very high speeds, and various other things, like what happens if a chip of paint hits a space shuttle
window at 15km/s. They can't get that fast, but it is the closest anything can get. The only thing faster would be something non-combustion related, or something weirdly
exotic, like a cloud of plasma or neutrons or something lighter than hydrogen.
No-one has ever tried to field one, since they are a bit big.
The gas pressure left in the cylinder will be high, but you could just vent it. Failing that, it is BP they use to push the piston, and the volume changes upwards so far, that they
may well just contain it fully.
80,000 PSI seems a bit too high- that is 40 tonnes per square inch, which is more than double the proof on my target rifle (It should be proofed to 20 tonnes, but it is old, and
proofed to only 19) in 7.62. Remember, there is no reason they have to go to such high pressures in the first stage. In fact, you want lower presures, as the gun will last
longer. You want the scary-ily high pressures in the second stage, where the light gas is at, and that just vents to atmosphere when the projectile leaves.
Must be one hell of a shockwave/muzzle blast! Over 100ft in some reports, as the Hydrogen burns...
Tended Tripod December 22nd, 2003, 06:27 PM

I was watching Nova, a show on PBS (public broadcasting) that is almost every time exploring a nifty branch of science like demolitions, warfare, or any new technology, and
this time they were doing tests to see what the temperature of the sun would be like. The only way they could get temperatures even close to the sun was by using a Light
Gas Gun to fire a bullet into a block of metal. The impact would heat up the projectile to almost the temp of the sun. I think the gun was about 30 feet long, and was fired into
a container with a camera in it. Quite amazing. I don't really remember any more details on it, if you could call any of this details.
xyz December 22nd, 2003, 09:40 PM

Actually electric arcs can reach sun-temperature (6000C) fairly easily if they have enough current flowing through them.
Jacks Complete December 23rd, 2003, 06:56 PM

I imagine Tended Tripod means pressures and temperatures of the CORE of the sun.
xyz December 23rd, 2003, 09:12 PM

Yep, that temperature is the core, the outside is only 2800C.
It doesn't create the pressures though.
Jacks Complete January 4th, 2004, 02:32 PM

xyz,
the whole point about using the gun is that you get the pressure for a fraction of a second when you shoot something with it, as well as the instant heating effect.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > exploding rifle slugs?
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View Full Version : exploding rifle slugs?
bombman May 24th, 2001, 08:08 PM

I was wondering how do you make exploding rifle slugs. Iv searched the net but everything I found was some super unstable kewl thing. any help is appreciated.
BoB- May 24th, 2001, 11:39 PM

Well, Rifle's have more pressure and higher velocitys, so almost any High explosive that is sensitive enough to detonate from target contact could explode in the barell.
I really dont see the point though man, the amount of explosive a rifle "bullet" could carry is small, and the explosive probably wouldnt end up causing anymore damage than
the bullet alone.
Heavy Recoil May 25th, 2001, 01:07 PM

NBK 2000 has a file on shotgun grenades, It is in the Explosive Archive.
Gollum May 25th, 2001, 06:50 PM

You'd be better off just putting some poison in the tip of a hollow point or shattering/tumbling bullet. If you're looking for big crowd control, exploding bullets is not what you
want.
chris June 10th, 2001, 10:09 AM

Nope, exploding bullets exist and are in use in AMRs.
For information regarding this matter check die .50 Raufoss ammo.
Foodos June 10th, 2001, 08:54 PM

you can just buy some hollow-point slugs, though the actual hollow point isnt large you could either try hollowing it out more with a drill, or stick with the factory hole and just
fill it, capping it off with a primer and a bb/something to initiate it. I would try it behind a barricade with a pipe shotgun before you use one in a gun thats 2" from your face.
madog June 11th, 2001, 03:34 PM

there is exploding and incedniary rounds for sale on this web site
<a href="http://www.firequest.com/catalog_window.htm">Firequest</a>
------------------
"True freedom is not without anarchy"
A-BOMB June 21st, 2001, 02:44 PM

Well, I found this formula for the explosive
used in old exploding bullets here it is:
"This should be mixed as follows:-Take sulphuret of antimony,and chlorate of potash, pound them separately, and then mix them together in equal parts by weight with a
bone knife, on a plate or other smooth surface." This was quoted from the "The Gun and Its Development"
page 670.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
[This message has been edited by A-BOMB (edited June 22, 2001).]
SMAG 12B/E5 July 15th, 2001, 01:51 AM

Hollow point 22's make nice exploding rounds. Their effects are mostly visual pyrotechnics and incindary. Flash powder and/or primer composition work well. For larger caliber
munitions examine the cross sectional of the 50 cal HEI (High Explosive Incindary). Fusing is not necessary on most high velocity rounds.
cutefix July 15th, 2001, 02:49 AM

A 20 mm HEI(high explosive incendiary) ammunition contains:
High Explosive
RDX 61%
Al powder 35%
Wax 4%
Incendiary material is also added. About 12 % of the HE weight

Total filler is about 12 grams for the projectile filler
madog August 3rd, 2001, 09:35 PM

my uncles dad (not my grampa) used to drill a hole in a .50 caliber slug then put a .22 blank in it with the primer end faceing forward then fire it out of a .50 caliber black
powder rifle it would explode when it hit a hard oblect like a rock you could probaly do this with a 12 gage slug
[This message has been edited by madog (edited August 06, 2001).]
AR-15 Man August 3rd, 2001, 11:02 PM

I heard that when there professional Buffalo hunters in the US that they would load a .22 in a hole in the 45-70 cartridge. Apparently when it hit bone it would set off the .22.
Bitter August 25th, 2001, 07:41 AM

Oh no, not again. That website is a hoax, Al. Come on, you don't think that one-shot .50 actually works do you ?
zaibatsu August 25th, 2001, 09:50 AM

It doesn't?? Shit, there goes my birthday present!
Mr Cool August 25th, 2001, 11:05 AM
I know this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it's fun so I'll post it anyway.
If you have a pneumatic gun, 8mm blanks make nice projectiles. I've been doing this recently, it seems that if you fire them fast enough they don't even need stabilisation.
When they hit a hard surface the shock sets them off. They can't do any damage, but they're pretty loud. Expensive though http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
frown.gif
Monkeyman666 September 2nd, 2001, 12:53 AM

You can buy a pest control, for annoying bird flocks from Cabelas. They shoot an m-80 like projectile into the air. I DONT suggest trying to make you own.
------------------
Monkeyman
Anthony September 2nd, 2001, 08:48 PM

Because filling hollow-pointed airgun pellets with an impact sensitive explosive is an idea that has been discussed many times?
twinkle October 2nd, 2001, 02:14 PM

here is a link to info about it
http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA.html
HolyHair November 21st, 2007, 06:00 PM

Did you think about fluid filled bullets? Just take a normal holow tipped bullet, enlarge the hole and fill it with water then seal it with silicone. When this hits flesh it should
explode.
NOTE: this is all theory as I amn't old enuogh to own a gun.:mad:
AcMav November 21st, 2007, 11:01 PM

Just wanted to let you know that this thread is over 6 years old and I highly doubt the original poster is still around.
On your idea I'm pretty sure the idea is to inflict more damage with little to no loss of performance and your idea wouldn't do much to add in damage and would probably
suffer in performance.
Shadowmartyr November 22nd, 2007, 12:16 AM

my uncles dad (not my grampa) used to drill a hole in a .50 caliber slug then put a .22 blank in it with the primer end faceing forward then fire it out of a .50 caliber black
powder rifle it would explode when it hit a hard oblect like a rock you could probaly do this with a 12 gage slug
[This message has been edited by madog (edited August 06, 2001).]
Uhh I know your banned but for the record maybe you will read this. If you knew anything about rifles and their ammunition you would know they made make ballistic tipped
ammunition, UFG (use fucking google).
-=HeX=- November 23rd, 2007, 06:37 PM

Hmm,nice idea HolyHair, how about hollow rounds filled with ETN? Test from a pipe gun but ETN is moderately sensitive so it may work...
Asriel November 25th, 2007, 03:50 PM

I'm gonna have to say that overall the idea is interesting but just not worth the effort on anything smaller than a 20mm (MAYBE 14.5mm), because the amount of explosive
would be so little, and I assume when you say "rifle" you mean something that isn't a 20mm or above autocannon. Though as was mentioned before look into the Frag-12
shotgun grenade, lethal radius about 3 meters I believe, shotguns are useful for alternative projectiles like this.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Modification of bullets to
penetrate body Armor
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View Full Version : Modification of bullets to penetrate body Armor
Zyklon_B December 14th, 2002, 11:03 PM

Most handgun bullets (not all) will not penetrate common body armor or Kevlar helmets. Is there any way to modify existing
bullets to penetrate high levels of body armor without having to modify the gun?
I have seen .224 Bozz and many other high-speed caliber conversions for existing weapons, but I want to look at this more
from an ammunition perspective then weapon modification. Since most conversions mean enlarging or elongating the weapon
to almost above concealable standards.
Would explosive filled tip bullets just explode on impact, splattering on the target, not penetrating? Or would they actually be
able to get through and do any real damage?
Thanks ahead of time for your responses.

Recently, there was a notice released by the NIJ (National Institute of Justice) that certain (unnamed) frangible bullets are
capable of penetrating level IIA vests, the most common worn by pork.
There's two types of frangibles; Compressed Powder & Shot
The compressed powder type is made from copper, zinc, titanium, or other non-toxic heavy metal and compressed under
great pressure to cause cold flowing of the metal. This causes it to retain a solid shape until the shock of impact against a
hard surface breaks the bonds of the powder particles, disintegrating the bullet.
This type is typically called "green" ammo, or "frangible training" ammo since it contains no toxic heavy metals like lead or
bismith (hence the enviro-freak term "green"), or for use at close range against metal targets that would otherwise be very
dangerous to use regular ammo against because of the richochet hazard.
The other type, shot, is made from very small shot (like #12) being contained within a thin copper jacket. This jacket ruptures
on impact, releasing the shot to disperse inside of a target. This is typical of Mag-Safe and Glasers.
I used to have a book by Lee Lapin called "Ninja 1990" (K3wL-ish title, but good info). They had used Glasers against ballistic
vests and the first shot would be stopped, but the damaged caused by the pellets tearing and bunching up the fibers would
allow any subsequent bullet impacts in the same area to pass through unhindered.
Obviously it'd be difficult to hit a person in the same area as a previous hit unless you're using full-auto. But, for up close and
unfriendly personal conflict resolution, full-auto is a good thing...IF you can control it and not spray wildly.
Anyways, I'm subscribed to the bulletin, so I'll eventually find out what the bullets are and post that info.
As for explosive ammo, a handgun bullet is too tiny to carry any sizeable amount of explosive. And, if it did, it'd explode on
impact, effectively turning into a cloud of fragments which the vest would readily stop.
It may be better to include a capsule of a highly toxic inhalational poison like sarin to the base of the bullet. On impact with a
vest, the capsule would be ruptured as the bullet deformed against the vest, releasing the sarin in the vicinity of the targets
face. More likely than not, the target would get a whiff of it and either die or be sufficiently impaired as to be easily killed.
If you could make a delayed impact fuse for an AP bullet, then you could possibly penetrate the armor and have the bullet
explode inside the target, causing much greater injury than the clean hole AP bullets produce.
Fl4PP4W0k December 15th, 2002, 01:23 AM

Hmm.. What about the known usage of Teflon coated ammunition?
I have seen cans of spray on teflon for coating frypans (dont laugh) etc... I believe one is called Cammie 2000? Having a
small amount of teflon applied to a small, high velocity round such as the Winchester .22 Mag (which can be bought in hi-cap
pistols) or possibly the 5.7x28 military round - if you can find a gun that uses that round \ a gun store that stocks them.
Im not sure if coating bullets with teflon would stuff up the bore of a firearm... trial and error I guess :)
Small calibre, high velocity, teflon coated and semi auto would be a quick way to dispense with lightweight body armor.
Does the usual Mr Plod who's on the beat wear straigh kevlar? Or is there a steel \ titanium plate or something aswell... If
thats the case (propper body armor) would a small, high speed teflon coated round be able to penetrate?
Could always get yourself a .50AE pistol and (somehow?) make your own depleted uranium slugs :p
Is it really that hard to hit them in the face?

Practice enough... you could probably get that good.
[ December 15, 2002, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Fl4PP4W0k ]
Flake2m December 15th, 2002, 01:30 AM

Dosen't the calibre of the bullet also help detirmine whether the bullet is capable of penetrating armor?
A pistol such as the Five seveN is quite good at penetrating body armor as the bullets are small (5.7x28mm hence the name
Fiven SeveN. The bullets also dont over penetrate.
Though I doubt you'd be able to get hold of a Five seveN.

Most armor penetrating bullets are quite small so they travel faster. Armor piercing bullets are also coated with teflon for less
resistance.

A teflon coating will actually reduce vest penetration by 20% or more. The purpose for teflon coating is to allow the bullet to
"grab" into angled surfaces like car doors and windows that it'd otherwise richochet off of.
It also increases penetration of metal, but decreases penetration of vest weaves.
A small, pointy, hard, and fast object is going to have a much easier time of penetrating between the weaves of a vest. That's
why the FN and BOZ can penetrate vests so well. Small caliber rifle bullets of hard material being acccelerated to high speed.
The vast majority of people wearing vests don't have any type of hardplate like steel or titanium, so that's not a problem.
Perhaps the swat team or military, but not the street cops.
There's an ammo called "accelerator" that uses a 12 guage shotgun to fire an AP .50 bullet via sabot at almost 4,000FPS.
That'd quite handily penetrate virtually any vest out there.
I remember seeing an article a long time ago about a pistol that fired a dart-like projectile from a modified revolver. The
"dart" contained an explosive charge and would blow a fist sized hole through 3/8" steel plate. Something like this would
render armor moot since the blast alone would kill the target, regardless of any penetration effect.
A shotgun grenade would have the same effect. The second generation design has a trumpet-style shaped charge effect. The
problem I'm having is the fusing.
The problem with any non-explosive penetration is that the hole would have to intersect with a vital structure like brain/spine/
heart to be rapidly fatal. It doesn't do you any good if the guy dies 3 days after having blown your head off, now does it?
Typical AP ammo leaves a neat little hole through the body, not causing much damage in the meantime. The LA bankrobbers
used AP ammo in their shootout and, while wounding 16 people, didn't manage to kill anyone but themselves.
Though, if custom AP ammo had a weak cannelure, then the forward part could be a hard penetrator, while the base would
break off during penetration, to follow through the hole and lodge inside the target, depositing a poisonous payload. :)
If you do a search on "boz" here at the Forum, you'll find a previous thread that discussed this. I found the CZ-52
7.62x25mm pistol as surplus for $175 on-line. This, combined with the right ammo, is on par to the BOZ or FN for penetration
ability.
[ December 15, 2002, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

I saw some .38 special bullets a while back, that had a triangular copper nose... I think they were intended to 'slice through
tough flesh' or something *cough*
Would something like this design be useful? Copper would probably be a little soft... but if there was a hard, pointed, stainless
steel(or Ti) 'nose' to the bullet - with a lead rear section - would that be of any greater detriment to the recipient?
ie: steel penetrates the armor, nose of bullet is forced back into standard lead round - thus lead expands. Expanded lead
slug makes its way through the hole that the initial point has made, and goes smashing into bone \ tissue making a nice
messy wound.
The hole that the point makes would be smaller than the slug, though the hole could be enlarged due to the fact that the
plating has been weakened at the point of impact?
Otherwise, have a deliberately weakened steel backing to the round. A standard bullet look to it, though internally has weak-
ish superglue joins. Say 8 fragments of steel joined together. So the 'penetrator' makes a nice hole, and at the same time the
rear of the bullet breaks into peices embedding all the little chunks into the tissue.
I thought teflon was used due to its slippery nature... to easily penetrate objects, and go deeper into the body. Meh.

There is a company called Corbin <a href="http://www.corbins.com/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.corbins.com/
index.htm</a> That sells the materials to swage bullets.
<img src="http://www.corbins.com/images/swc7-lg.jpg" alt=" - " />
The third bullet from the left, the conical shaped projectile combined with their equipment to make a solid copper bullet would
probably lend to a high threat level bullet.
I am guessing it would also be possible to produce such a projectile in a lathe. The Ideal would be to lathe the center out of
solid Tungsten or high carbon steel, and have a copper band around it to protect the barrel from wear.
The calibers I was thinking of where more on the lines of common 9mm Luger.
All AP ammo as you said NBK doesn't lend well to "stopping power" when it comes to making any real kills. Adding some form
of poison would be nice, but the problems I associate with most poisons is them becoming airborn during firing, killing the
shooter.
[ December 15, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Zyklon_B ]

While we're at it, is a 7.62x25 steel core (not special AP-s, just old Red Army surplus) any good against a class IIIA? I had a
dream about being offered an old (illegal) Tokarev lately, and I've also heard about a certain breed of pigs here upgrading to
abovementioned body armor standard...
nbk2000 December 15th, 2002, 01:33 PM

Level IIIA? That's very high threat level armor, capable of stopping some rifle bullets. The Tokarev is capable of penetating
most vests, but a level IIIA would be border line I'd think. Though solid steel core would penetrate the best.
It's possible to use tungsten powder in swaging, so you could have an extremely hard, and dense, penetrator. And that 3rd
stage bullet is indeed of a good geometery to penetrate. Though, if it had a nipple on it, it'd be even better because it'd be a
KTW (or THV, forgot which) bullet then.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur December 15th, 2002, 02:07 PM

NBK, why is the tokarev illegal? I thought that all handguns were legal (if available for sale) after some 'cooling off' time. from
what janes' guns says *looks up in book* it doesn't mention anything about outstanding penetration, (though the reduced
cross-sectional profile would lend itself to some increase).

Penetration is relative. Compared to battle rifles, it's weak. But, compared to the .3587 or .44, it's stellar. Between the low
cross-section, high velocity, and steel core ammo, it's a winner.
And it's not illegal if you live in the right place and have the right forms. However, I've the feeling he lives in either Oz, or
britania, neither of which like their surfs to be armed.
Or, he could be like me, and can't legally own a firearm as being a felon. But, like me, he doesn't give a fuck what the law
says and is going to get one anyways. :)

I was wondering if a bullet with a steel blade instead of spike protruding would be any good against soft body armor?
Would there be a safe way to combine armor piercing with a poisonous substance in a safe delivery system? Of course in a
bullet a very strong fast acting poison would be required.
Another idea that came to me was drilling the center out of a FMJ, inserting an impact sensitive explosive behind it, and
closing the hole with a steel spike. Theoretically on impact the spike would be driven into the explosive causing an explosion
that would then send then spike forward into the target.
And would it be possible to create an incendiary handgun bullet? I know the military uses bullets with magnesium that is
ignited on impact sending a molten hot glob of metal thru the armor. But to apply that to a smaller bullet such as 9mm or
even 45 would seem to be a difficult option. But then again I am sure that having any fire at all occurring on the bulletproof
vest will definitely render its wearer occupied and easier for extermination.
Anthony December 15th, 2002, 04:28 PM

The amount of explosive that can be carried by an average handgun bullet is slight, as has been said. However, I'm wonder if
a system similar to that Zyklon has suggested, but with an FMG, the bullet would penetrate due to it's design, but the small
explosive charge would cause the bullet to expand, or go like a peeled banana. Giving a much larger would channel.
It'd depend whether there was sufficient delay to allow the bullet to penetrate the vest before expanding.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur December 15th, 2002, 05:46 PM

Hmmmm, i get ya' NBK....
I just wish that i could own something in that line of self-defense products, by the way has anyone seen the article in the
papers recently about that missing SA-80 from sand-hurst mil academy? apparantly ALL leave was supposed to have been
cancelled due to the urgency of the loss (hahahaha as if !) from experience i know exactly how hard it is to keep the blasted
thing clean enough to function flawlessly (and yes it can function when clean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> )
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 80 quid for 1 (one) SA-80a1 in near mint condition <hr /></blockquote>i can just see that in the local free-ads paper :D
Fl4PP4W0k December 15th, 2002, 11:49 PM

But would anyone BUY the thing :D
For kevlar, flechettes work fairly well, yes?

What is their performance vs metal plating... would they just break up?
Bitter December 16th, 2002, 10:34 AM

It might penetrate the vest, but the killing power of a fletchette would be minimal due to its size, unless it hit something vital.

Thats what full auto is for :p
Keep pummuling them with fast, small sized darts untill they hit something!
Developing on NBK's idea of a toxin \ chemical embedded in the bullet... what about something like Thorazine? Does anyone
know how many mg of that stuff you would need to drop someone?
If indeed something like that could work... using a sortof 'super tranquilizer' gun may be effective. High ROF with armor
peircing flechettes - each impregnating a nice amount of tranquilizer into their bloodsystem.
A problem would be the large amount of blood loss might 'drain' the chemical from the body. Blech.
Meh... Just have a 10ga round filled with flechettes and aim for the upper body \ head region. Humor ensues. :D

Flechettes are pretty crummy and would be crap in anything but a smoothbore weapon. Not to mention flechettes are only
interesting projectiles when dispenced by and explosive.
zaibatsu December 16th, 2002, 08:41 PM

How about using the compressed tungsten cut with something like ricin to form a shotgun slug? Or hellebore, which is
described (also gives a procedure for extraction) in the crossbow book I borrowed, supposedly it'll drop a deer before it can run
a "hundred paces". If you shot someone with one of those, the impact of the slug would either kill them, or the poison would
soon after - either way they're fucked :)

If you added an organic chemical to a metal powder prior to swaging, it might be decomposed by the many tons of pressure
(and ensuing heating) that's needed to solidify the powder. A bit of cyanide powder would be best since it's a fairly sturdy
chemical.
A rapid fire flechette gun brings to mind the "Super Nail-Gun" from Quake 1. That's my favorite weapon. :)
Flechettes work best in large numbers, like a cloud of needles. Singles aren't much of anything unless you hit the brain/heart.
Energy84 December 16th, 2002, 10:50 PM

I know this is going somewhat off topic, but the thought just struck me of how easy it would be to get flechettes... Darts. You
know, throwing darts. Piss easy to get them and I don't think it would be too hard to get one into a shotgun barrel. All you'd
need to do is trim the fins and make a sabot (wood maybe) to fit it. You probably wouldn't want to use lots of powder though
(no mags here. field loads only). I'd like to see how the ballistics would be 'cause I bet flechettes would be an ideal round for
hunting big game. Just as long as you were a good shot.
Also, I bet you could trim darts up enough to get them to fit paintball gun barrels. More trimming of course, but as long as it's
done evenly (all fins trimmed the exact same amount) I bet you'd get some decent accuracy. Wouldn't it be cool to drop a
deer with a paintball gun? :p

Or you could buy actual flechettes by the bag-full online :)

I thought Ricin took a while to kill? (Yes, it does. NBK) Like some russian guy who was implanted with a couple little balls of
it... took a few days or something.
Im not sure if that was the ricin that took the time to kill him - or the delivery method. (It was the ricin. NBK)
The Super Nailgun kicked ass...hehehe
Harry December 17th, 2002, 11:25 AM

Somebody been reading PMJB? Article on shotgun slug modification? For you who haven't, the author suggests inserting a high
speed drill bit or similar bit into a shotgun slug to increase penetration.
Best way to defeat body armor is with its own design. It's very hot to wear, and in a hot, humid climate, few will want to wear it
for an 8 hour shift.
For a pistol capable defeating armor, consider the AMT Automag line. Yes, I know, rare as can be, but those pistols eat some
serious ammo--including .30 Carbine. .30 Carbine was a poor rifle round, but is overkill in a pistol. (think about it for a
minute.)
Glaser ammo is my preferred frangible. I saw the test reports when it first hit the market. Oh, baby, that did some damage to
the Kevlar!
I've heard rumors that brass bullets are banned in the USA now. I picked up some brass-jacketed HP in 9mm in 1996, I
haven't seen any since. Brass may be an option for a projectile.
The other best way to defeat body armor is to shoot where it isn't. Face, groin, arms, legs. A frangible slug in any of these
areas will severely damage the part. And the face is (more or less) in front of a major nerve trunk (to X-ray the top 2
vertebrae, the patient faces the X-ray tube and opens his mouth wide.)
Remember, we are men. What man can lock, man can unlock.
Harry
Hmm... I wonder what effect a Glass bullet would have?
Im guessing that it would have very good flesh (possibly kevlar) penetration at close ranges, and shatter upon bone impact -
small glass shards cannot be seen on Xray. Nasty.
Due to the lightweight nature of glass, for longer range it would be useless - though close range sounds fun (assuming the
use of standard powder load, thus very high velocity).
Armor plating would most likely stop a glass bullet... though I am not certain. Anyone have resources regarding glass\crystal
ammunition? I would look on google, though its 3am and i really should sleep :o
I wonder what mess a 10ga round filled with ever so charming flechettes would MAKE if the entire load happened to
rendezvous with a hapless individuals face :D

Oh, BTW, Energy84 - the only way your gonna drop a deer with a paintball gun propelled dart is if you wind up the valve
timing, and shoot the poor sucker in the eye\ear from like 2 feet away :p
Harry December 17th, 2002, 04:16 PM

Zaibatsu, please scan or transcribe the hellebore information. I've been doing some research on the plants, and with plants
like that, who needs nerve gas? Does the reference give the Latin name, or just "hellebore"? That is some crazy poison! The
extraction may be effective on a single species, as not all contain the same alkaloids.
So, anything you can share about the hellebore extration will be welcome.
Harry

A glass projectile would lack the toughness or inertia to penetrate hard amour. The effects of a polished glass bullet on kevlar
might be interesting though, there being nothing for the kevlar strands to "grab".
I'm also wondering how much more effective a non-rotating projectile would be at penetrating kevlar would be, compared to a
standard rotating projectile. A rotating projectile has to force its way through the kevlar weave as well as cutting/breaking any
kevlar strands that grab it, and we know that kevlar is very cut/abrasion resistant.
Medieval soft armour consisted of a jacket stuff with lose (wool IIRC) fibres, despite being the cheapest armour available, it
proved ery effective at stopping arrows. The rotating arrow head would tangle in the fibres, which gradually brought it to a stop.
In quick tests, I've found that 1/4" of wadded cotton wool will stop a .177 air rifle pellet, which would otherwise penetrate your
average reading magazine.
Flak jackets work on a similar principle, often stuffed with lose kevlar fibres.
It all makes me wonder, how much do kevlar vests rely on this "braking" of spinning projectiles to proide protection?
Arkangel December 17th, 2002, 10:23 PM

When he was about 16, my big brother shot at a car window with a .177 air rifle. It didn't shatter, much to our chagrin, but that
was more than made up for by the fact that he then started yelping like a stuck pig.
Why was this? Well, the pellet had deformed against the glass, briefly making the centre molten, and firing a very small, very
hot piece of lead back towards him, and penetrating about 3mm into his skin.
Do you think it would be possible to create a similar effect, only firing a slug of lead forwards? If so, it would be highly
penetrative, since it would be small, and travelling much faster than the bullet was. I'm thinking a strong, cup shaped base to
the bullet, with a soft lead front, shaped a little like the rear of an airgun pellet.

It's been said that mercury is capable of defeating a vest.
Not only is it heavier than lead, and thus have greater kinetic energy/wieght, but is also a liquid, thus capable of flowing
through the weave of the vest at great speed.
Gallium is a solid below body temperature, but becomes a liquid above/about 90F. Bullets get very hot when fired. Thus, you
could have a solid cored jacketed bullet that would than transistion into a liquid cored penetrator after leaving the barrel. This
assumes the bullet absorbs enough heat to be capable of liquifying the gallium before impact with the target.
Also, there's a thread in the (tank) armor forum I posted a link to in the relevant section that discusses research the military
is conductiong on liquid metal penetrators. There's a company that's developed liquid metal alloys and has a $2million
research grant to develop penetrators for tank ammo.
Mind you, it's called liquid metal, but it is actually a solid. The reason it's called "liquid" metal is because the alloys retain the
amorphous characteristics of liquids, rather than crystallizing.
They have a demo of a steel ball bouncing for a couple of minutes after being dropped on a liquid metal plate, long after
similar balls have long since stopped bouncing off of other metals.
Anyways, read the armor forum. The same principles used to defeat tank armor can be applied to body armor as well.
Especially the projectile designs.
Energy84 December 17th, 2002, 10:55 PM
Hmmm, I'm not too sure about that Fl4PP4W0k. I guess I've never really shot a paintball gun, but I have built my own single
shot version. I think it would be capable of dropping a deer at 40+ yards with just a steel ball.
But anyways, back to the topic, I think you'd have problems getting a glass projectile to leave the barrel in one piece.
I think you'd have problems getting any ammo to pierce kevlar without either getting military spec ammo (full metal jacket) or
making your own. If I had my own lathe, I would try to make a bullet from HSS (High Speed Steel). It's the same stuff used
for making drill bits and even the cutters used on metal lathes. Problem then would be getting to cut it but I think that it can
be done with carbide tipped cutters.

This should probably go in the Gun Improvements topic, but WTF...Have there been any known experiments with tapered
(squeeze-) bore handgun barrels? Or is there something because of what tapered bores and handguns absolutely won't mix?
How critical is the bullet construction for this? A squeeze bore barrel (if it'd work, that is) would certainly be a nice acessory to
have :D

I've never heard of a squeeze-bore being used on anything smaller than artillery.
The intention behind squeeze-bore was to increase projectile velocity while retaining full caliber. With handguns, that's what +P
loading are for.
spydamonkee December 18th, 2002, 01:49 AM

A 12Ga Sold Slug would do some damage to the wearer of the vest weather it penetrated it or not, the amount of kenetic
energy it would transfer would be like getting hit by a train. also im pretty sure the slug doesnt spin and then their is the idea
of inserting a small high speed drill bit into the centre.
so would this be the simplist option for defeating someone with High Grade Body Armour or am i way off track?
Flake2m December 18th, 2002, 01:53 AM

Has anyone ever read the book "the day of the jackal" By Fredrick Forsythe?
In the book it describes the bullets the assasin uses. The bullets have a hole drilled though the middle of them. They then
have a drop of mecury added, finally the hole is sealed with lead.
I am not sure if they would penetrate a kevlar vest, but they would be quite nasty.
I think this is how they work:
When the bullet is fired the inertia from the mecury makes it harder to stop. If the bullet stops suddenly the mecury would still
want to move so the bullet would shatter, sending mecury and lead into the target.
I also had another idea:

If you have a bullet press and access to mecury, you could freeze some mecury in the shape of a slug and then press it into a
casing. When you fire the bullet, it would liquify in flight, because it is denser then lead then it would have more intertia. As
NBK said it might flow through the weaving. Also Mecury is quite poisonous so if a person does get shot, they will have a death
sentence already because of mercury poisoning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Mercury freezes at -40F or less. WAY too cold to be feasible.
The simplist way to defeat someone in body armor is to not use a weapon they're protected against (gun).
A stream of napalm, cloud of HCN, hail of shrapnel, all these will take out a person, no matter what kind of BA they're wearing.
RTPB: Victory through superior firepower

To illustrate my earlier post about bullet fragmentation:
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/VestFrags.jpg" alt=" - " />
When a bullet stricks a hard surface, it disintegrates in a virtual cloud of fragments, ranging in size from the microscopic, to
pea sized, depending on type/velocity/angle/etc.
Now, if the bullet had a core of a compressed powder poison, or liquid toxin, in its base, when the bullet impacted a vest
(especially hard plate), it would disintegrate, releasing the toxin in a little cloud outside of the vest, where it could be inhaled.
Found this info while purusing a russian website.

Helvetica">
The BR-354P (APHV-T) projectile 76,2x385R arrowhead AP projectile is typical for most Russian tungsten carbide core
projectiles of WWII.
Very special about this design is the substance that surrounds the core. The front 480.5g tungsten-carbide core and the
second 149g hard steel core are surrounded by very toxic mercury-chloride HgCl2 or Hg2Cl2.
This white to gray substance builds small balls of metallic mercury when heated. It was used to securely fix the hard metal
cores to the outer shell in the first place.
Second, in the moment of impact, these substances change their chemical and thermodynamic properties and act like a liquid
lubricant with high density and viscosity under the energetic shock of impact. This helps the cores to separate smoothly from
the outer shell.
The third, and most welcomed effect, is the highly toxic nature of the HgCl2 and Hg2Cl2. These are very toxic in their solid
property (0.2-0.4g fatal dose), but when they evaporate in the heat as the core is penetrating, they form a very toxic cloud of
mercury vapors inside the hit vehicle, killing or severely damaging the health of the crew.
<hr /></blockquote>So perhaps you would want to make a slug of
compressed mercuric chloride, instead of only tungsten. It'd still be very dense, could have a tunsten penetrator core, and be
lethally toxic as well. :D

Is there anywhere mercuric chloride can be bought? How about manufacturing the chemical?

Just rub metallic mercury from switchs with table salt in a mortar and pestle till it forms a solid. Then subliminate at low heat to
collect the pure material. You can find details in Kurt Saxons "Chemistry like Great-Grandad used to do it" (or something
similar) on the FTP.
Charlie Workman December 20th, 2002, 02:49 AM

If you've got a lathe, you can turn steel bullets of a diameter slightly smaller than the groove diameter of the barrel. Then
wrap teflon pipe sealing tape around the base of the bullet until you reach bore diameter. It should work in the same manner
as the old paper patched bullets used by early target shooters. I was thinking you could also try heating the steel part of the
bullet up with a high wattage soldering iron and melt-bond the teflon coating. Don't know if you can get a consistent thickness,
but I figure it's at least worth a try. I've long suspected that the teflon coating on the KTW bullets was only to protect the
barrel from the steel core. The tip could be a simple cone, like the old Remington "Highway Master" bullets. These were the
first intentional armor piercing pistol rounds first made in the 30's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget
[ December 20, 2002, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Charlie Workman ]
ALENGOSVIG1 December 20th, 2002, 03:10 AM

Be careful if you buy HgCl2. Its not only on the DEA list of watched chemicals, its on the special surveillance list. Used to
manufacture drugs.
Heres a good link on making HgCl2 <a href="http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/mercurychloride.html" target="_blank">http://

www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/mercurychloride.html</a>

There's good reason for wanting to know how to make AP ammo.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/fmas.jpg" alt=" - " />
This is the future. Piggies armored, literally, head to toe with IIIA armor that'll stop anything short of a main battle rifle.
Sure, the military gets first dibs on this stuff, but it won't take long to trickle down to the street pork.
If only my heros (LA Bank Robbers) had this kind of armor. Though I think whoever makes this stuff got the idea from my
heros since THEY were covered almost head to toe in armor years before this stuff came out. :)

From a PDF called "An Overview of Novel Penetrator Technology".
"Research indicates that important characteristics of a penetrator are its length and density."
The longer, and heavier, the better. As the length to diameter ratio increases, the penetration ability increases. But the
increase is non-linear, rather it's greater. So, a penetrator that it twice as long goes more than twice as deep.
Also, round isn't the only shape useful for penetrators.

Helvetica"> The main benefit of the novel penetrators examined might be that their increased stiffness affords some
resistance to the lateral forces applied to the penetrator by oblique or reactive armor targets.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/penetrator_geometry.gif" alt=" - " />
As with the H-rod, it is expected that an equal-mass, equal-outer-diameter cruciform or triform rod would outperform a solid,
circular cross-section rod of the same material in terms of RHA penetration at high velocity.<hr /></blockquote>This would be useful when engaging enemy armor at oblique angles, such as when
they're prone or at at an angle. Whereas the normal bullet might richochet off without penetration or injury, the shape of these
penetrators lets them "dig" into the armor, without breaking up.
They still come to a sharp point for penetration, but the body is geometric for rigidity.
In order to be able to penetrate high level armor with a handgun caliber, you may have to resort to a saboted long-rod
tungsten/uranium penetrator, similar to that used by tanks.
xoo1246 December 20th, 2002, 08:54 AM

<img src="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/bullets.jpg" alt=" - " />

Helvetica"> "Another idea that came to me was drilling the center out of a FMJ, inserting an impact sensitive explosive behind
it, and closing the hole with a steel spike. Theoretically on impact the spike would be driven into the explosive causing an
explosion that would then send then spike forward into the target."
<hr /></blockquote>The same idea came to me.
If i remember it correctly the mentionend percussion mixture can be pressed to different densities giving it different
properties(sensivity). I don't know if it's suitable.
Care would have to be taken so that the accelerating rod will not set of the primer mix and at the same time making the
bullet sensitive enough.
The other design makes use of the casing allowing a long penetrator rod. Don't know how stable it would be in flight.
If a non circular penetrator were used, the remaning space in the bullet(since you will most likely drill a hole for it) could be
filled with mercury, incendiary, explosive or poison.
[ December 20, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

Explosives in bullets should be avoided. They can carry only a miniscule payload, are no more injurous than a hollowpoint
bullet of the same caliber, and are likely to explode in the barrel, injuring you more than the intended target.
The soft bullet around the rod would would flatten on impact, squeezing itself tightly around the rod, inhibiting penetration. Or,
if it was hard enough to resist flattening, it would present a much larger surface area of resistance than the rod alone.
In order to work properly, a rod must be fired from a NON-rifled barrel. Any errors in axial alingment would be greatly amplified
by the very high rotational forces exerted by rifling on a projectile. Bullets spin at over 100,000RPM.
This is why tank guns are smooth bore. In our case, using a geometric penetrator would simply the task since the shape would
act like natural fins, saving the added effort of machining them.
Since tungsten and uranium are rather exotic, you could use steel. I've seen the above mentioned shapes stocked in
industrial supply catalogs, so that's a ready source. After proper hardening, they'd be ready for use in penetrators.
Plastic sabots are available in many calibers. Adapting them to firmly hold a penetrators during acceleration, while still being
capable of smooth seperation right out the barrel, may be a bit more difficult.
You'd want to use as powerful a powder load as your gun could withstand since increased velocity increases penetration. And
you'll need every bit of speed to compensate for the lack of DU/W in your penetrator.
I doubt one would be able to coat a penetrator with any kind of toxin or poison. It'd either be destroyed on firing from the
intense heat of the propellant gases, or rubbed off during penetration of the vest.
xoo1246 December 20th, 2002, 12:21 PM

The question is, what is the targets? Armored vests, armored vehicles?
And at what range? Is the ammunition supposed to be used in large rifles or handguns, etc.
This is not my feild of knowledge, but if you used a hollowpoint bullet where the hollow diameter is larger than rod(in the front)
wouldn't the bullet mushroom, thus not squeezing itseld around the rod(it would still lower speed compared to if the rod was
free flying, but it allows you to use a normal bullet as a vehicle).
And maybe using groves in the rod would allow a poison to follow the rod, maybe not the most sensitive organic ones but still.
Tungsten powder seems to cost around 11 $/100g from a search at google. The problem seems to be that the powder when it
impacts must fracture into medium sized fragments for good penetration.
Also, if the penetrator doesn't tumble or travel at sufficent speed. It has low stopping power.
Maybe a shotgun would be suitable for your type of sabots?
And maybe a hollow projectile could be used, thin walled pipe with sharp edges, cutting through the kevlar fibers.
Well, well, I don't know. But I do know that there are alot of patents on the subjects.
[ December 20, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

When I started this thread this is what I was thinking:
Weapon: Handgun
Caliber: 9mm to 45 ACP, not 44 Mag or 50 AE
Range: Maximum 25 yards
Target: Human, light body armor, no steel plate.
Now about the bullet squeezing into the steel rod, that can be easily avoided by making sure the is a rim around the entrance
of the steel spike that would allow the steel spike to move forward while the outside copper lead are pealed back by the vest.
This effect can be further increased by pre-made cuts in the bullet that will allow the bullet itself to rip apart on pre-determined
lines.
You can see this effect in Federal Hydra-Shok bullets:

<img src="http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/images/
45ACP%20Fed%20230gr%20HSHP%20G30.jpg" alt=" - " />
If you notice in the above bullets, a post is standing up out of the center of the bullet, while the rest of the bullet has pealed
back.
nbk2000 December 21st, 2002, 12:12 AM

There's a problem with that though.
If the penetrator is still attached to the bullet for it's entire flight, it's losing critical velocity because of drag from the bullet.
A penetrator has to be as aerodynamic as possible to maintain as much kinetic energy as possible. And the energy the
propellant expends to accelerate that lead mass up to speed would have been better spent in accelerating the penetrator a
few extra hundred FPS.
And, if the bullet was holding the bullet until impact, when it started to break apart, might it not cause a skewing of the
penetrator? This would decrease penetration.
The metal molybdenum acts like a lubricant under pressure, so coating a penetrator with this may increase penetration
against metal hard plate. It's readily available as a anti-fouling coating material for bullets.
SMAG 12B/E5 December 27th, 2002, 02:41 AM

Please excuse an interjection by an old fart... A very successful method of producing excellant penatrators with repeatable and
reliable characteristics is by obtaining an inexpensive used turrent lathe with suitable collets. Design the appropriate size
sharpe-nosed, undersized projectile (allowing for a crimped or swadged copper or brass jacket). The projo is turned from drill
rod, which will take an excellant heat treatment. The projo is turned, heat treated, jacketed and sized. Hard brass projectiles
without jackets are successful against lower level vests. The tooling is simple, the materials are very available and the
processing time is short.
These rounds may be loaded "hotter" because of their lighter weight.
These projectiles may also be saboted for over-caliber use.
Note: If the use of "rotating bands" instead of jackets is desirable, knurl the bottom of each band groove to prevent the
bands from seperating from the projectile while in the rifling.
redbull September 7th, 2004, 06:41 AM

Im suprised no one had some up with this answer before... I took a look
at how conventional steel core AP ammo was made. It's just a steel
insert... If someone took some .380 Hollowpoint and drilled the bullet to
accept a 1/4 or 3/8 inch steel ball (sling shot ammo from walmart) and dropped it into the hole and covered it up by
hammering lead back over the
bullet and sealing the steel ball inside the hollowpoint... you should be done?
I also had the idea of using epoxy / JB Weld or similar to hold the steel ball
in place and when it hits the target the bullet will seperate... the steel ball
will go through the kevlar and the lead portion of the bullet will give the
necessary mass to push the steel ball through the kevlar. I made both but
never tested them because I don't want to ruin a perfectly good and
expensive vest testing them out. BTW.. E-bay is a great place to get
used kevlar vests... Kevlar dosent degrade (if you take care of it) and you
can get "expired" vests for reasonable prices... 100-200 bucks instead of
500 and better for new vests.
Additionally... there is a book from Uncle Fester... its called vest busters and
it covers making steel rods into bullets with a lathe and coating them with
teflon so they dont eat your barrel. Once you get an undersized bullet you
acid etch and then dunk and bake your new AP bullets. I don't know if this
is on the FTP site or not... let me know if you guys want a copy... it might
take a day or two to get the scanner up and running and to find the book.
I greatly welcome inupt on wether the steel ball method would work,
if so you can have AP ammo quick and cheap :)
ALSO.... NBK2000 if you dont mind the inquiry... what were you busted for?
Why not make an 80% reciever... you can get a 1911 frame for like $150 and
complete it yourself by cutting the slide rails... of course you have to buy
the rest of the parts yourself so it will cost a couple hundred....
tdog49 September 7th, 2004, 02:29 PM

redbull,
this solution has been proposed and discussed before. You can search for it but I believe the thread (at least the one I was
involved with) was lost in the shutdown.
Right now, a very inexpensive and easy option (at least for those of us in the states) is to obtain a CZ 52 pistol chambered for
7.62 x 25. Then buy a lot of .223 Timbs. This is a 7.62x25 cartridge that has a 50gr .223 bullet saboted into it. Velocity is
over 2000 fps and compares favorably with the .224 boaz w/o the LEO only restrictions.
pistol=$150 at most
ammo=$35 for 50 cartridges
both prices are retail
Jacks Complete September 7th, 2004, 07:52 PM

redbull,
Kevlar doesn't degrade? Where did you hear that - the used vest salesman trying to sell you a ten year old vest for $800?
Kevlar definately degrades. Water degrades it, and most vests are only garanteed to perform to spec for two years from
manufacture. The Kevlar inserts are never washed, but are found inside a waterproof ballistic nylon cover, which in turn protects
the Kevlar against abrasion and dirt, and especially moisture. These live inside a cover that turns it into something you can
wear. Even the ceramic plates you get are generally covered in something like ballistic nylon too, to keep it together after a
hit, and to stop damage due to minor drops.

I was going to mention that in my last post---lol, completely forgot.
So all I will do is say that Jack is correct. When I sold vests to clients, the brochure on care & cleaning also mentioned that
exposure to sunlight (uv) will cause degradation of the fibers, so we would tell them not to leave them out in the sun (ya
know--backseat of the car--that kinda thing) Always place them back in the bag when you're done......
Bugger September 7th, 2004, 09:44 PM

Presumably, kevlar-containing or other types of bullet-proof vests would be rated according to the caliber of the bullets that
they stop. No doubt that all of them would be able to stop at least .22 or .223 bullets. One would expect vests able to stop
heavier bullets, like .303, .32, .38 or 9mm, .45, .475, and .50 (the latter ones are used to kill elephants), to have much
higher price tags. I doubt that any of them would be rated to stop bullets containing explosive charges i.e. shells, or made of
depleted uranium which is harder and heavier than Pb or Cu or Fe.
Besides bullet-proof vests, kevlar is also used to make objects of fiberglass i.e. glass-reinforced plastic, along with glass and
nylon and mylar fibers. The fibers are embedded in a catalytic-setting plastic, usually a polyester resin, which polymerizes to a
solid with the aid of a metal-soap catalyst like cobalt naphthenate (the Co salts of the carboxylic acids derived from oxidation
of hydrogenated toluene or methylnaphthalene, the "naphtha" produced in oil refining). This is especially done, with molds, to
make hulls and decks for small GRP boats, or on top of a wooden plank or ply hull, and shower cubicles. Such uses would
appear to be inconsistent with the statement about kevlar being liable to degradation by contact with water.
Bugger.

well, what do you think of what I just proposed?
(The steel ball in a modified hollowpoint)
I talked to a reputible engineer, Bill Penn from the Indian Head Naval Warfare Center,
Indian Head Maryland USA, that he tested 30 year old kevlar was tested and
stayed within the NIJ specs for which it was rated. The samples were kept in storage
and not exposed to water or UV. I really cant imagine this guy's a liar, I worked in
the same installation. In fact he mentioned something about kevlar getting marginally
stronger (or was that stiffer, Im 99% sure that it was stronger but regardless it held
up). Anyway this test data represents leftovers in a gov. storage facility... about as
ideal condition old kevlar as it gets.
Also there is an ammo manufacture on the web that uses normal pressure loads
but lightweight rounds to defeat kevlar. They offer "tatical" 9mm and .40 and im
pretty sure .357 was available... I dont remember the website... their ammo was
reasobaly priced and you diddent have to be a LEO to get it.
Oh BTW, I own and carry a CZ-52 and I use Surplus ammo in it... it can defeat IIa
armor on its own. (At least exceed the rated backface deformation, if not cut through
on its own. If you buy one replace the firing pin and cheazy bakelite grips with
something nice. (Their firing pin will break if you dry fire a couple of times). I have
largely replaced it as my carry weapon with a Beretta 92FS 9mm because of the
higher magazine capacity. YAY all the Americans can bet their hi cap mag fix on
in just 4 more days!!! (Assault weapons ban expires!!!)
tdog49 September 8th, 2004, 03:45 AM

on the subject of kevlar degredation:
ok, here we may be splitting fine hairs, and of course any rate of decay is mitigated by the quality of the kevlar in the first
place. However as tough as it is, it does still wear and degrade. This is why they are usually only warranted for a specific time.
You may store yours perfectly and in never wear so 20 years later it will still perform. I may crawl thru sand,
mud,rocks,flames,acid--whatever and leave it in the car windshield and it will fail in 6months......Do you really want to trust an
uncertain and untestable factor with your life???
When I worked as an A&P mechanic, we had a tool that would test the integrity of airplane fabric so it could tell you when to
replace said fabric. If you could rig up something like that for a vest, you could store it and use it with confidence for a long
time. Remember also that even a brand new vest will not stop a sharp knife.....think about all the sharp little knives that get
into the fabric while you wear it....(sand etc)
Bugger: you are correct ----vests are rated by level---1,2,3,4 and so on and this tells you which bullets they should (SHOULD)
stop. I am picking my own brain here and could be wrong but I believe it goes like this:
1=.22lr to 45 acp---all similar low pressure blunt tipped bullets
2=.357 mag to .44mag (maybe 454) and similar high pressure blunt bullets
3=.223 to .308 to 30-06 and similar high pressure AP type(pointed) bullets but usually not within a certain range. i.e. a .308
at 10 yards will still penetrate the front but maybe not the back (small consolation, I know)
They are also subdivided by letter---1,1a,2,2a etc
(be gentle in the criticism please, my memory is about as sharp as a .50 cal ball)
Also the style and strength of the trauma plate must be factored in. the plat e in a class 2 may stop the .308 but the rest of
the vest wont....
Ok, enuff already...next subject, the hollow point thingy. I am not a fan of gimmicked ammo. I wont claim that it wont work,
I'll just say "WHY?" when you can buy perfectly good stuff over the counter.....as far as improvised ammo( for those of us who
cant buy it) I am a big fan of sabots. 40-60gr .223 bullets saboted into anything that will drive it to 2000 fps is going to be
much more dependable than any gimmicked blunt nose bullet. There is a 30-06 load called the xcellerator (?) that pushes
that .223 to 4000 +fps!! No vest will stop that.... check out what FN is doing with the 5.7x28 load.
Damn, I just re read this thing and it goes on and on. I sound like my 7th grade science teacher---blah blah blah blah--lol so
it stops NOW.
THAT Dude September 8th, 2004, 11:46 AM

[QUOTE=tdog49] Remember also that even a brand new vest will not stop a sharp knife.....
This made me think expanding broadhead! :D

I think this general idea could be made in to a good Kevlar penetrateing
round due to the blades creating a large wound chanle.
(So maybe a bow/crossbow [with broadheads]would be good at piercing armor.)
Allso they sell steel arrow heads could be good, here is one exzample from the web, "DRAWN STEEL POINTS 20 grains, 5/16"
O.D."
These are simple hollow semi blunt glue-on arrow heads.
That could be filled with lead (or what ever) and shot from a sabot with
good rezults (I think).
Or used to make steel core AP ammo, that would have the necessary weaght(,kinetic energy,mass,or what not) to push
through the kevlar.

I see absolutely no reason why any type of broadhead (being of reasonable sharpness) from any type of bow (say pulling
40+pounds) would not penetrate a vest with lethal results. The only exception of course would be the trauma plate itself....that
might require more.

Im bored :rolleyes: so let me give everyone a reasonably comprehensive list
of Kevlar NIJ ratings from the good people at H.P. White Laboratories,
conviently located in Maryland... because I have to be right about something
in this thread.... :rolleyes:
THREAT LEVEL I Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps

.22 Cal. 40 Grain LR 6 1050 320
.25 Cal. Auto 50 Grain FMC 2 810 247
.32 Cal. Auto 71 Grain FMC 4 905 276
.380 Cal. Auto 88 Grain JHP 4 990 302
.28 Cal. Special Lead 158 Grain 6 850 259
.38 Cal. Special 158 Grain SWC 6 850 259
THREAT LEVEL II-A Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.22 Mag. 40 Grain Solid Point 6 1180 360
.38 Cal. Special 125 Grain SJHP+P 6 1028 314
.38 Cal. Special 158 Grain Lead +P 6 1090 332
.38 Cal. Special 110 Grain JHP+P 6 1235 377
.45 Cal. Auto 230 Grain M.C. 5 810 247
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
.357 Mag. 158 Grain Lead 4 1250 381
.357 Mag.158 Grain Lead SWC 4 1253 382
.41 Mag. 210 Grain Lead 8 3/8 1080 329
9MM 95 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
9MM 100 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 4 1090 332
9MM 115 Grain JHP 4 1160 354
9MM 147 Grain Subsonic JCE 5 1050 319
9MM 147 Grain JHP 5 1050 319
10MM 170 Grain JHP 5 1172 357
10MM 200 Grain Full Jacket TC 5 1072 327
THREAT LEVEL II Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps

.41 Mag. 210 Grain SP 4 1300 397
.44 Mag. 240 Grain SJSP 4 1180 360
.44 Mag. 240 Grain Lead 4 1200 366
.357 Mag. 125 Grain JHP 4 1450 442
.357 Mag. 110 Grain JHP 4 1550 473
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP 6 1395 425
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP-Hornady 6 1445 441
.357 Mag. 158 Grain Lead 8 3/8 1410 430
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 5 1175 358
9MM Lapua 123 Grain FMC 4 1200 366
9MM Norma 116 Grain FMJ 4 1150 351
9MM Geco 123 Grain GMC 4 1200 366
9MM Canadian 116 5 1250 381
9MM Israli 4 1200 366
9MM Cavim-FMJ 4 1110 339
THREAT LEVEL III-A Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.44 Mag. 240 Gr. SWC (Gas Checked) 6 1400 427
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 9 1400 427
9MM Canadian 116 Grain FMJ 16 1400 427
9MM Norma 116 Grain FMJ 16 1325 404
9MM Geco 123 Grain FMC 16 1310 400
9MM Lapua 123 Grain FMC 16 1445 441
9MM Israeli 16 1300 397
THREAT LEVEL III Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps

7.62 NATO Ball 150 Grain FMJ (308) 28 2750
30.06 PSP 180 Grain 24 2700
.30 Carbine 110 Grain FMJ 18 1950
12 Gauge Rifled Slug 18 1550
.223 55 Grain FMJ (5.56 MM) 20 3075
7.62 x 39 150 Grain FMJ 22 2400
THREAT LEVEL IV Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps

30.06 A.P. 166 Grain 26 2850

Don't think that I think your wrong about any of this, I'm just spoutin off my preferences and concerns.....
btw, nice rating list. I searched for one earlier but Point Blank would'nt let me in their site and I basically got bored and quit.
Very nice, much more comprehensive than my list. lol...
abtw, In 3 weeks I pick up my new cz52....looking forward to it! Been wantin one for about 16 years....
Anthony September 9th, 2004, 08:36 AM

How strange that no mention of shotgun rounds is made until level III, and then it's a slug. IIRC even the low level vests will
stop 12ga shot rounds.

here is some more tables that do show 12 guage 00 buck being stopped by level 2a. Here they say to stay away from level 1
and even 2a(being the minium) and recommend 2 as the preferred starting point.
www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Protection_Levels.shtml
here is a quote about level 1:

"Early generation ballistic fibers, though bulkier, only stop fragmentation and low velocity pistol ammunition.
Sometimes PASGT army surplus flak jackets are pass ed off as a b o u t Level II-A , but in our tests 9 mm penetrated. Ex ce llent
birdshot protection, riot gear or paintball equipment, but not recommended for pistol ballistic protection."
Excellent paintball protection! LOFL LMAO!! ouch......
Interestingly enough, in direct contrast to what I was taught as a vest salesman, they do claim this:
"NIJ tests failed to demonstrate a ny s ignificant differences in 10-year-o ld arm or, rega rdless of the exten t of use or app arent
physical condition
The warranty exists solely to limit the ma nufacturer's liability on the product and is not a reflection of the anticipated service
life of the product.
...Guide to Police Body Armor, National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center (NLECTC)"
however there is this caveat:

"In the absence of abuse such as machine washing, or ultraviolet exposure, Kevlar is good for many, many years."
btw this is a used vest sales website
raptor1956 September 9th, 2004, 06:49 PM

quote: "The other best way to defeat body armor is to shoot where it isn't. Face, groin, arms, legs. "
Harry's post hit the nail right on the head. For non-oz members, do some reading on our outlaw Ned Kelly. He got done in by
black powder projectiles whilst wearing armour made from plow blades. They took his legs out, and finished the job off with a
noose.
As far as concealability goes, any pistol's going to do the job in those circumstances as long as you can hit the target
nbk2000 September 9th, 2004, 08:33 PM

A round ball wouldn't penetrate, as it wouldn't be focusing sufficient energy into a small enough area to break through the
kevlar fibers. If a steel ball shot directly into the vest wouldn't penetrate, a steel ball in a bullet certainly wouldn't either.
Doug September 10th, 2004, 03:33 AM

Here are some links from www.vestguard.co.uk
Not quite as comprehensive as Redbull's posted levels, but in handy HTML form for quick reference...
NIJ Levels:
http://www.vestguard.co.uk/NIJLevels.html
PSDB Ballistic Levels (UK):

http://www.vestguard.co.uk/BallisticLevelsPSDB.html
PSDB Stab Levels (UK):

http://www.vestguard.co.uk/StabLevelsPSDB.html
THAT Dude September 11th, 2004, 10:29 PM

A bow, crossbow,or speargun firing a broadhead hunting arrow would make a good silent armor piercing weapon(that would be
hard to trace and is easy to make or buy). Ofcorse you would still need a good backup weapon because these are slow to
reload :( (and take practice).
So I thought it would be good to make expanding broadhead ammo for more standard guns.The reason for expanding
broadhead is so the wound chanle will be much bigger than the projectile, and thus much more leathal than standard armor
piercing ammo. :)
But I'm not shoure how this would be best accomplished :( ...ideas anyone? :confused:
Ropik September 12th, 2004, 02:01 PM

THAT Dude: Think about something like"Bigot", arrow for shooting from pistol(courtesy of SOE). I think you should be able to
do something like this with a hollow steel broadhead and tin fins.
(Some people say that pistols for shooting with the Bigot had to be altered. Some say that it wasn't necessary. I don't know
where is the truth.)
raptor1956 September 12th, 2004, 09:03 PM

I remember reading a while back about a .40cal round called the hurricane or tornado or something like that. It was basically a
stainless wadcutter with sawteeth machined into the edge of the hole. I dont know if they're being done in other calibres or
not, but worth a look. There supposed to work on level II but I wouldn't think they'd do much against ceramics etc.
THAT Dude September 13th, 2004, 12:32 AM

I could not find this "Bigot", arrow for shooting from pistol(courtesy of SOE). Could you tell me more about it?
This looks like it might be close to what you are talking about.
http://www.gunsnstuffonline.com/index.aspx?pagename=moreinfo&uniqueid=3529988
Has anyone found anything about this hurricane round? It sounds vary odd.
redbull September 13th, 2004, 03:14 PM

My fellow Americans, the American Assasult Weapons Ban expired today! YAY!!!
Ok, back to the show...
Looking into the frangible ammo defeating soft kevlar issue, I found this article...
It seems like we might be onto something. NIJ is investigating the issue.
The problem with Second Chance vests is the second major product alert to surface
with ballistic vests in the past year.
In stories published in September and October 2002, Gun Week revealed a controversy
over another brand of body armor, Point Blank, produced by a firm in Florida. It is not
associated with Second Chance.
In that instance, another impromptu shooting tes t h a d b e e n d o ne by a sheriff s

department in southern California, in which an older Point Blank vest had reportedly
been penetrated by frangible bullets fired from a 9mm police service pistol.
Simultaneously, officers in New York City began complaining about their Point Blank
vests, and the International Union of Police Associations publicly challenged the
manufacturer to wear his own prod uct.
At the time, a spokesman for one body armor manufacturer called the revelation
a huge story.
For more information consult http://www.justnet.org/testing/frangible.html
bipolar September 13th, 2004, 10:40 PM

I have an CZ-52 I bought a while ago, I found a place to buy the .30 cal sabots. But I dont know anything about reloading or
loading ammo. I was wondering if I need an expensive reloading press to load my own 7.62 x 25 saboted .223 armor piercing
rounds or can I do it by hand? If not what do I need?
It seems like a submachine gun in this caliber would be the ultimate concealable ANTI-PIGGY weapon other than the AR-15
pistol I guess. What do yall think about the AR-15 pistol? Would it be accurate with such a short barrel. It seems like the
submachine gun with armor piercing would be better because of more concealable and more ammo you can carry.
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Bushmaster-Pistol/Mvc-017F.jpg

Cool things about the ar15 pistol:
1. its smaller than a rifle
2. its........
bad things about the ar5 pistol:

1. its damn big for a pistol
2. you cant put a stock on it
3. that short barrel will not be a detriment to accuracy but you will lose a lot of velocity. This is a big problem. So big that the
military is fielding a lot of complaints about the reduced lethality of the m4 carbine because its 14" barrel steals enough
velocity from the bullet that it is taking an inordinate amount of hits per target to cause death.
4. costs too damn much!
5. the ammo wont penetrate vests any better than .223 timbs or .224 boaz or even (maybe....) the 7.62x25 and all these can
be had in a much smaller package
6. mv out of this small barrel is 1700 fps as compared to 3000 fps from a 18 inch barrel. why is this important? see numbers 3
& 5
I will admit it is interesting and would be a riot to shoot, and handloading could pump the velocity up a litttle....2100 fps would
be nice.....but I will now also refer you to numbers 1,2 and 4......
john_smith September 15th, 2004, 05:25 AM

For you guys in US...what about the .30 Carbine version of Ruger Blackhawk?

ok,
here is the deal (kinda) no, I am not an expert, I read a lot and this is what you are looking for if you want to grease piggies
in vests. (or sand lice)
if the bullet is----never mind-----look at the tables.

There are 4 factors that will affect penetration
1. Velocity-----speed kills
2. bullet weight
3. bullet shape
4. caliber---bullet diameter
simply put a fast spear point is more likely to penetrate than a slow brick. however (as we see with the 12 guage) a lot of
weight can make up for velocity and lack of shape. however (again!) that 12 gauge slug probably wont penetrate at 50 yds
while the .223 will......
so, apply the above to your favorite cartridge along with comparing velocity, weight and shape to the published tables and (
while this is simplistic in the extreme) you can get a pretty good guess ast how it will perform.
So John, ****concerning the .30 carbine****

after checking with Hogdon's site, I have obtained reloading data showing an 85 gr bullet @2400 fps to a 110 gr bullet @ 2100
fps. Now this is from a 20" test barrel. They did not have pistol data in this cartridge. Velocities will be approx 400-800 fps
slower from a 6" barrel. (figure 50 fps loss for every inch) this round should penetrate nicely if you can keep velocity above
1400 fps. This would compare w/the 7.62x25 and +p+ 9mm sub gun ammo (i.e. Hirtenberger)
the 7.62x25 ranges between 1400-1600 fps w/ an 80 gr bullet

Hirtenberger loads a 124 grn @1400 fps for the 9mm parabellum. if you can get some, BUY it.........

Don't be too excited about the "penetrates a vest" report about the frangibles.
Say it penetrates the vest plus 3" of ballistic gelatin backing. What's that mean? In real terms, a projectile requires the ability
to penetrate 3-4" of ballistic gelatin before it will even BREAK THROUGH THE SKIN!
Remember, skin is elastic and backed by flexible organs, not rigid like ballistic gelatin.
Now, after expending 4" of BG worth of energy just to break the skin, it still needs to penetrate at least 8" (more like a foot)
to reach vital organs to kill the piggy wearing the vest.
So, in recap, frangibles aren't shit unless you blow off the pigs kevlar'd nuts. :p
s9ar7acu3 September 25th, 2004, 07:22 AM

consider carbide. Its incredibly hard, can be ground, and fragments into extremely sharp slivers. Pie industries sells carbide
flethettes that can be reloaded into a shotgun shell.
http://pie.hotusa.org/exotic.htm
Another idea for pistols would be to install a small carbide centerdrill into a high velocity lightweight pistol round like 10mm or
5.7. this could be accomplished accuratlly by using a small hobbie lathe like a sherline, taig or Prazi
An FMJ bullet securly gripped in a collet could be partially drilled out with a centerdrill of the same size as the one you plan to
install. Said carbide centerdrill should then be pressed lightly into the lead thereby seating the rear flutes securly into the
bullet.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=369-2205&PMPXNO=944992&PARTPG=INLMK32
Isotoxin August 15th, 2006, 04:30 AM

While NBK says W is somewhat exotic I have found this to have changed. For example on the well known UN site we can see
1/8th inch diameter 3.5" long solid W rods for 10$ and a quick look at the Thomas Register found many companies that sell
even small orders of W rod up to 6 feet long from 1/8th to 1 inch diameter. For handgun bullets these could be cut down and
a dull point ground on them and then swaged with a small hand press using powdered lead as the "packaging" medium. It
would be expected but have to be proved with testing on a used vest against clay or raw meat or similar that the lead would be
stripped away and the small W perpetrator would defeat the vest.
So while DU is out of our grasp W is easy to buy in exactly the right form for making KE weapons. Clearly W that isn't sintered
is better then the powder you can buy in the reloading shops as the "true" metal will not tend to break up into power.
As for Teflon as far as I know it does not help defeat a vest in any way shape or form. The reason it is used is to prevent too
much damage to the barrel. For amateur explosive knowledge the E&W is the best the world has ever seen but for general gun
information we don't hold a candle to sites such as thehighroad.org. Luckily they can ignore us and we can learn much from
them. As proof here is a thread about the "Teflon Myth":
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=120866&highlight=teflon+myth
As per my understanding(backed by reloaders on that site) thinking the Teflon has much of anything to the penetration of the
bullet is as silly as thinking the sabot has anything to do with the penetration of the DU rod. It's just a carrier system and
nothing more.
I hope that, with the ability to buy a few inexpensive W rods some experiments could be done with 12ga shotgun shells and
PE plastic or fiberglass sabots. My(untested) idea is to take a rod and do maths to find out how best to cut it down by using
our wonderful USA Army's own tank KE rounds(and related literature about them) as a general guide.
For example I would wish to know the most effective length/diameter ratio and how the fins should be shaped and such details
as the matter of a thin metal or plastic coating on the KE rod itself - should it have one and if so what material?
As for fins I think it would be very impractical to try and make the rod and the fins from one large rod of W. This would be very
hard to do and waste material. Instead I think a rod could have a sort of ring cut about 2mm wide and 4mm deep near one
end of the rod; this would then have a tiny forward groove connecting to this ring made with a mill to prevent the fins from just
spinning around the ring and making them ineffective. This would allow you to have a place where fiberglass, carbon fiber,
plastic or even metal fins could "latch on" to the rod. Otherwise it would slide off. This would let you make identical fins from a
mold that would obviously not damage the W rod yet not require machining W any more then you had to.
Like always testing could be done but perhaps a powerful epoxy could attach the fins instead of the fins being molded around
the ring - but this might make each penetrator slightly uneven and thus make testing harder.
Then comes the perhaps easier task of researching the sabot itself and crafting a jig or mold to make them from plastic or
fiberglass and then figuring out the proper powder charge, using wadding and crimping the shell. If it all works well it may be
no longer then a normal slug. It would also have an amazing effect on armor; all in an easy to reproduce(once you have the
jigs and materials) design with any pump or breach loading shotgun sans choke of course.
In fact, if it worked well the greatest expense of the whole project might just be buying the armor needed to test its full
potential. While I have dreamed about NBK's idea of the impulse rocket scaled down for urban warfare and door breaching a
sabot would at least give you the armour defeating capabilities and require less of an investment into machine tools and
research then those wonderful impulse rockets.
BTW NBK - it would seem some of your posts on the impulse rocket are gone in the forum crash - I have read the patent of
course but I would be very happy if you would bring up the subject again as I think it is one of the most realistic and valuable
non explosive weapon ideas here - I mean it is a point and shoot 2000m/s steel rocket with minimal machining requirements
and no fears of catching a face of flame like with conventional rockets! One day the cops may seriously ask suspects if they
have "a rocket in your pocket?"
nbk2000 August 15th, 2006, 07:41 AM

The problem with long-rod penetrators is the requirement for very precise sabot seperation.
If your sabot petals unevenly disengage from the penetrator in even the slightest bit, this kicks your penetrator off at a
tangent from the aimpoint.
Depending on distance and velocity, the rod will then either take off on the new tangent, or impact the target off-point, greatly
reducing penetration.
Also, symetrically round penetrators are now being thought of as passe'. H-rod penetrators have greater lateral strength for
less weight, allowing higher velocities. :)
++++++++++=
Gy2 discussions:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2076-legality-casting-molds-full-auto-receivers.html?
highlight=gyrojet#post34955
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2076-legality-casting-molds-full-auto-receivers.html?
highlight=gyrojet#post35015
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/pyrotechnics/457-spin-stabilised-model-rockets-5.html?highlight=gyrojet#post57881
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/improvised-weapons/642-tri-grenade-2.html?highlight=gyrojet#post12237
Isotoxin August 15th, 2006, 04:55 PM

Thank you NBK - sabot petal design would be difficult but with CAD and some tests having perfect seperation of the sabot
might be doable.
This "H-rod" is interesting but after much googling I can find nothing at all! It seems "hrod" is some sort of non english word
but nothing about KE weapons. Do you have a more specific search term for me?
30yearstoolate! August 15th, 2006, 11:43 PM

I remember a weapon that could penetrate body armor not from the projectile used but the sheer number of projectiles fired.
This weapon was known as the American-180. The high fire rate could literaly cut through vests and with very little recoil it
could be very easily handled by smaller personal.
This is quoted from the website where there is a wealth of other info on this gun.
http://www.american180.com/history/index.html
Ironically, this same intimidating 1500 rounds per minute (1800 rounds per minute when chambered for .22 short magnum)
pounding action of the American 180, which could easily demolish a cinder block wall, also had the power to defeat most soft
body armor that certain prison guards wear. For this reason, some State Penitentiaries retired the American 180 shortly after
they were acquired.:D
But I have gone off topic.
With an ammunition that has a hollow point, theoretically could you put in a small titanium core? Like a portion of a titanium
bolt. If inserted inside the hollowpoint it should make it through the vest. Or would a heavier metal work better? Such as cast
iron.
I would think energy of the impact of the round has as much to do with the round's material for penetration.
A low energy round made of a hard heavy metal has just as small of a chance of penetration as a high energy round made of
solid lead. Penetration is almost always a combination of the two.
-----My two cents
nbk2000 August 16th, 2006, 02:34 AM

H-rod penetrators can be found in a presentation on the NDIA archives at:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/
The specific year and name of the file are long forgotten, but that's where I found out about it.
There's enough stuff there to keep your brain buzzing for months. :)
Isotoxin August 16th, 2006, 05:26 AM

Damn NBK - that site makes GlobalSecurity look like the kewl's text files by comparision! I am deeply impressed with it. From
a small look around I can already see charts and even pictures showing how hot each part of the munition gets in the air and
all sorts of wonderful things - even an overview of the electronics. Hopefully I can find the H rod part.
bolt.
If you yourself understand that penetration requires KE then why would you suggest such a low density metal instead of say a
ball of tungsten shot or even a small steel ball bearing? Perhaps I am missing something here but I don't see how titanium or
cast iron are good choices at all.
festergrump August 16th, 2006, 07:00 AM

bolt. If inserted inside the hollowpoint it should make it through the vest.
If you were to attempt to roll your own AP rounds by inserting something into a HP cavity it probably won't penetrate since the
KE is going to peel the weight right off the bullet like a banana peel when it hits the armour leaving nothing to punch the steel
through. You'd need to be able to cast your own projectiles complete with a hardened steel core with a high Rockwell temper
rating, a lead or other heavy soft medium surrounding that (for bore protection an weight), and finally a copper jacket to
minimize expansion. All that while keeping it's weight ratio completely asymetrical from core out for stability in flight...
Definitely think FMJ for penetration, though, keeping KE as your close friend.
Another thing about steel core ammo, though:
Many people have already conducted testing of the milsurp steel core FMJ "non-AP" ammo from combloc countries and found
penetration to be similar to that of regular lead core. They used steel as core for the bullet as it was cheaper than lead at the
time of production, but the steel was not in a hardened state. So, merely adding a steel core isn't even going to guarantee the
job on anything armoured, vest or otherwise, unless the armour was already penetrable by it's all-lead core brother of the
same caliber. (7.62 x 39 against regular class I piggie armour, for example). :D
nbk2000 August 16th, 2006, 11:22 AM

I wonder if it'd be possible to use an induction coil to harden the steel core of the bullet, making it hard enough to act as an
AP core.
Naturally, the bullet would have to first be pulled prior to induction heating.
Or maybe not.
If the powder doesn't go up high enough to actually touch the bullet, and you keep the neck of the case cold, then maybe you
could get away with hardening just the tip of the steel core?
I'm guessing he's going with the hardness of titanium being used to breach a softer barrier, with the lead providing the mass
for penetration.
tacmedic13 August 23rd, 2006, 09:41 AM

the standard vest issued down here is IIIA, and we use extra trauma plates.
festergrump August 23rd, 2006, 12:49 PM

The standard vest issued down here is IIIA, and we use extra trauma plates.
Really? Who's WE if I might be so bold to ask?
Regardless of who you meant by "WE", T. Medic, schedule IIIa with multiple trauma plates wont stop everything all the time.
The IIIa vest only protects up to a .44 mag handgun round, IIRC, so the .308 that overly hyped-up tacticool sniper ninja-
piggie brethren aim at us civies from safe and hidden distances while praying for a kill order will easily do the job under most
circumstances. And at closer range as I would more likely be, If I can drill that trauma plate once or twice then I'm gonna get
them with my third, right in the vitals, if I were so inclined. But I'd be even more inclined to just take out their grape with one
shot, anyway, or knock their ass over with a good one to the chest then go to work on their legs to draw the rest of the pork
out of cover for some good old hypothetical fun... But all that is neither here nor there as what I would do hypothetically
speaking is not within context of this thread.
But I must ask a question since you sparked my curiosity, even if it is off topic. Assuming you are indeed a medic (guessing
from your namesake) and not PORK and still feel you require the layer of protection a scedule IIIa vest actually does offer,
why not just move to a better area to perform your service to society? I would.
Only sociopaths and niggers shoot unarmed medics because they don't care or don't know better, respectively. Why shoot YOU
when you cause no threat? My guess is you'd wear a vest as a medic because you work in areas with more niggers than
sociopaths, so...
Me, I'd only feel the need for a vest if and when the pork comes around "post catastrophy New Orleans style" to collect up all
the guns from self-sufficient surviving citizens. MOLON LABE! After such an event you could bet I'd wear one if I had one.
Knowing I could kill all my enemies who also wear one with an AKM, SKS, or similar; trauma plates or not, well that's
something to hold near and dear.
-------------------------------
Now, back on topic:
While browsing thru the copy of "Firearms Identification, volume I, second addition" which Dankstavegas was kind enough to
upload to Rapidshare, I noticed they made mention of solid turned or cast steel bullets...
They mention it for it's ballistic identification problems, but I see some better potential here for hardening the entire projectile
and seating it within the charged and primed casing with a simple reloading press. They even mention briefly the option of a
PAPER jacket to ensure the proper spin from the rifling (and to protect it somewhat, I suppose. I just skimmed the book
sectionally, though).
It'll eventually wreak some serious damage to the lands of your rifling after some use, no doubt, but are you gonna want to
keep that barrel around after you penetrate a piggy's vest, anyway? Likely the whole weapon will be disposed of, as weapons
are a tool, and tools leave telltale marking on objects when they are used, much to the criminal user's chagrin.
Easy, affordable (with the common but right garage tooling), and very penetrating.
I'd take note of the LA Bank-robber's folly of "over penetration" and stagger my rounds accordingly to ensure I maim/kill/
remove-from-opposition whatever with doubletaps, though, since we're always speaking hypothetically...
abouali August 23rd, 2006, 12:49 PM

The Ultimate Combat Pistol (UCP) uses special small-caliber,the 4.6x30mm ammunition is loaded with spitzer-pointed, all-
steel bullet with brass jacket. Bullet weight is 1.6 gramm (25 grains) and the muzzle velocity is 725 m/s (ca. 2400 fps).
Manufacturer claims the 100% penetration of the CRISAT body armour (1.6mm of Titanium plus 20 layers of Kevlar) at the
distance of 200 meters.
http://www.world.guns.ru/smg/smg49-e.htm
A.C.E. August 23rd, 2006, 01:05 PM

The idea of hardening the steel core of a factory made bullet is very interesting. However I think there are some things that
have to be considered:
First, the melting point of the other metals in the bullet. One would have to make sure that it is higher than the hardening
temp for the steel used in the core.
Second, heat expansion. If the different metals used in the bullet have different heat expansion rates, then the core and the
jacket would end up having different sizes when heated. I'm not sure exactly how this would affect the bullet but I can't
imagine that it would be good either for accuracy or for the gunbarrel.
I think discarding sabot is the best way to make an AP round for a rifle.
I know there is sub caliber sabot ammo for sniper rifles cal. 7.62X51 (.308W). I haven't been able to find a good picture of its
cross section but the sabot is made of plastic and aluminium. One of these round will easily penetrate any body armor
normally worn by law enforcement, and most LAVs as well.
Cobalt.45 August 23rd, 2006, 11:12 PM

Remington still makes their "Accelerator" ammo for 30-30 and 30-06. It's a sabot-ed .223 round, 55 gr. in a standard case.
Using a bullet extractor, remove the sabot. Toss the soft nose 55 gr bullet in favor of a like- diameter AP slug of your choice.
Re seat with the sabot.
Go for as much length as possible for more weight and a better ballistic co-efficient.
These sabots can be used in any .30 cal. round.
And as a bonus, if the sabot itself isn't recovered by the forensic lab folks, the bullet is untraceable to the weapon that fired it.
nbk2000 August 24th, 2006, 03:40 AM

Well, if you're going to go through all the trouble of pulling bullets, you might as well do it right and swap out the pristine
bullet for one that you've recovered from a firing range, to totally FUBAR any attempt at a ballistics match.
After all, if the bullet is pristine, they'll know it was saboted, and search for the sabot. If the bullet is marked up by barrel
rifling, why would they bother looking for a sabot?
How many people have ever been caught using pre-fired saboted rounds?
How many pigs would think to check for such a thing?
Probably close to zero for both.
Oh, and you can paper patch a bullet, instead of using a plastic sabot. The paper burns and disintegrates in flight, leaving
NOTHING to find, even if they knew to look for it. :p
'Tacmedic' sounds something similar like 'Tactical Team Medic'. Hmmm, pork? Anyways...
Teflon was originally added to the KTW bullets, not to aid penetration by any kind of lubricating effect (zero, BTW), but by
'grabbing' onto a sloped surface that it might otherwise richochet off of, allowing it to bite into the target and penetrate.
Anyways, when dealing with SWAT piggies, follow the three F's:
Frag 'em, Flame 'em, and Flee 'em.
:D
Attached is a copy of another boards discussion on the subject. Turns out that the gaming community has some interest in our
subject matter, too. :)
Cobalt.45 August 24th, 2006, 06:40 AM

Inertia- type bullet "pullers" (remover would be more accurate) are very easy. Bullet in, head screwed on, strike bullet end
down on your bench, like a hammer. Of course, getting a puller in the first place does complicate things.
I like the idea of an already fired bullet. Finding an armor piercing one in good enough shape might be a challenge.
If you were looking in a range used by paramilitary, etc. you might score. A dodge could be that you're "mining" lead for
reloading, I suppose...
The techs would be confused, alright. Bound to raise eyebrows when pulled out of dude's chest- that is if there's enough bullet
left to analyze. But they'd never match it up, and that's what counts.
Wonder what's the best way to keep a bullet from being matched to the barrel that fired it (Besides destroying it)? Maybe this
could be raised on another thread someday.
abouali August 24th, 2006, 02:45 PM

GSh-18 was developed as a military sidearm, capable to defeat current body armour.To achieve good penetration, designers
of KBP first developed a special, very hot version of the 9x19mm Luger / Parabellum round, with light and fast bullet with
hardened steel core (4.2 gram @ 600 meters per second, or 65 grains @ 1970 fps), called 9mm PBP. PBP ammo can
penetrate 8mm plate of mild steel at 20 meters, or any Class III bulletproof vest at the same range.
http://www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg111-e.htm
megalomania August 24th, 2006, 08:15 PM

In the defense industry there is a saying, a dollar of offense beats ten dollars of defense. Meaning, for every $10 million
spent on defensive technology, it only takes $1 million to counter that offensively. This is why any body armor is eventually
doomed to failure as it is a very expensive game of one-upmanship to maintain.
tacmedic13 August 24th, 2006, 09:49 PM

Close nbk , but no, I am an SRT medic, in an area filled with thugs, and wanna be thugs who shoot at anything that moves.
Don't quote whole posts. It's a bannable offense.
Also, grammer and i/I. I highlighted the offending mistakes. Next time is the last time.
nbk2000 August 25th, 2006, 03:59 AM

Mega:
Especially when you consider that, until body armor covers the body (literally) head-to-toe, there will always be a soft spot to
target.
And it'd better be fire proof.
Oh, and air-tight.
And impervious to fragmentation and blast.

Directional energy weapons....etc. etc.
:D :p
Jacks Complete August 29th, 2006, 07:50 AM

Hey, I think NASA have something like that. Shame you can't actually walk in it!
People shoot medics to steal the morphine, and to eliminate witnesses, both the patient and the medic themselves.
Jumping back a ways, shotguns are always tested from 2 feet with birdshot, as closer than that they act like a slug, and tear
through the vest. A 1A vest will stop BB or smaller at 2 feet, but likely fail the trauma rating. Beyond 5 yards I'd say you would
be fine. With something like SG, where the balls are about .38 calibre, I'd suggest that at a distance of 5 yards your vest
would withstand that if it would withstand a .38.
If you have a lathe, then turning your own bullets is about as easy a task as you will ever have. Use drill rod, and simply use a
running head to support it, then shape and part, and repeat. Harden the drill rod afterwards. Or use stainless (or exotic) rod
and a carbide tool.
The HK PDW (now MP-7) 4.6mm x 30mm rounds (http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/ai.cgi?

sn=ppPaIERpDa&catid=359=fVtkcOvsxP) were designed specifically as low impulse pistol rounds that would beat the CRISAT
(Soviet) body armour at 200 yards, so that tankers and REMFs could have something more useful than the current 9mm or
.45, which would be useless in a fight, even if they could hit the target. Combined with the extensible stock and red dot sight,
it's a step change.
Production of such a tiny round for military only use was impossible with standard punched methods, so it was decided that
greater accuracy and flexibility could be achieved using a center-feed CNC lathe. The correct rod could be installed and the
bullet heads turned out at speed.
Materials tested included tungsten, steel, stainless steel, titanium, various copper alloys and even some ceramics. The best
results came from bronze, AFAIK. Hard enough to count, heavy enough to reach. (Recall that the CRISAT spec is 1.6mm of
titanium plate backed by 20 layers of Kevlar weave)
vizionar September 4th, 2006, 03:42 PM

In my experience through war in ex-Yugoslavia best assault rifle is AK74. Ammo 5.45x39.5 is capable get trough all police and
military buletproof vests with ceramic plates.
They have air pocket that destabilizes the bullet on contact and steel core like needle.
;)
Alexires September 5th, 2006, 02:28 AM

I don't know alot about body armour and penetration, but here is my two cents worth.
What about case hardening a steel round? A steel round that has been hardened by dipping it in extremely fine carbon powder
when it is hot. Fill it with lead, and it might act as a kind of injector for the liquid hot lead on impact.
I have absolutely no idea, just a thought.
teshilo September 5th, 2006, 01:13 PM

As about real explosive bullet used by german in WW1.Not hollow or tipped dum-dum.These bullets contain miniature primary
explosive charge and striker with spring...In our time can use combined action after explosive placed teflon coated needle.
After strike in target needle got impulse from explosive..
Syke September 14th, 2006, 09:08 PM

Im pretty sure I saw on discovery that the swat piggies have no protection on their armpits so buckshot on the left arm is alost
a guaranteed kill since it passes into the heart. Or buckshot to the head because the pigs helmets will cave and deform
literally crushing their brain.
nbk2000 September 15th, 2006, 07:55 AM

Buckshot will have almost no effect against the PASGT-type kevlar helmets that the SWAT pigs wear.
Though the under-arm gap is indeed a vulnerable spot, getting a flanking shot from below their armpits would be difficult,
since they're moving and presenting face-forward towards your likely hiding spots.
You could shoot through their arms to reach the vitals in the torso, but newer vests have shoulder pads that come down over
the arm to prevent that.
Syke September 15th, 2006, 06:55 PM

Theres always kneecaps:D Like you were saying about the LA bank robbers the best way to beat armor is to shoot where it
isnt.
5_seven September 16th, 2006, 01:27 AM

If the round doesn't penetrate, there's always blunt force trauma (I think that's what it's called), where the bullet doesn't go
through, but the impact is still felt. A large round would surely hurt enough to incapacitate the target long enough for you to
get close and hit a vital area that has no protection :D
Ropik September 16th, 2006, 12:31 PM

Yeah, but the problem is that there is never *one* enemy. Everybody likes to have deck stacked in his favour, right?
Besides that, vests used by SWAT and such have a heavy duty trauma plates. For example, slug from a 12 ga. shotgun can
easily kill somebody in a normal BP vest even if no Kevlar layer is penetrated - simply, as you mentioned, by a massive blunt
trauma - crushed sternum is not very good for your health.
I know a cop who, wearing a SWAT-type vest, was shot from ten meters away with a slug from a 12. shotty. The slug fractured
the vest's outer ceramic plate, cracked three of cop's ribs, knocked him flat on the ground and winded him. However, he was
able to draw a handgun and shot the attacker dead when he was cocking the shotgun for a second shot.
Draw the conclusion yourself.
5_seven September 16th, 2006, 07:27 PM

Well anyone that wants to take a shot at SWAT needs a psychiatrist.
As for the cop, if the guy had a semi automatic, the officer would've had bigger problems than a coupled cracked ribs.
ShadowMyGeekSpace September 17th, 2006, 07:30 PM

Obviously it'd be difficult to hit a person in the same area as a previous hit unless you're using full-auto. But, for up close and
unfriendly personal conflict resolution, full-auto is a good thing...IF you can control it and not spray wildly. It's not difficult at all
to hold tight groups with a semi-auto, or even a full-auto if you fire in short bursts, or are using a 5.56 which has NO
recoil(think m4a1, colt commander, m16, etc etc)
Though I doubt you'd be able to get hold of a Five seveN.

... Armor piercing bullets are also coated with teflon for less resistance.You can get a hold of a five-seven easily and legally,
but the armor penetrating armor is not available to civilians, that'd be SS190, we can only get SS109. As for lubing your
rounds, you'd want moly(molybdenum disulfide, I think I spelled it correctly) coated rounds.
Level IIIA? That's very high threat level armor, capable of stopping some rifle bullets. The Tokarev is capable of penetating
most vests, but a level IIIA would be border line I'd think. Though solid steel core would penetrate the best.
No, it's not. See http://freedom.broken-irc.net/NIJ-STD-010104.pdf for the testing standards for bulletproof vests.
In order to work properly, a rod must be fired from a NON-rifled barrel. Any errors in axial alingment would be greatly amplified
by the very high rotational forces exerted by rifling on a projectile. Bullets spin at over 100,000RPM.
This is why tank guns are smooth bore. In our case, using a geometric penetrator would simply the task since the shape would
act like natural fins, saving the added effort of machining them.No, a tank barrel is smooth bore because rifling can only
effectively/efficiantly apply stabilization to projectiles of a certain length:diameter ratio, and tank rounds are just too big.
Better results are seen with aerodynamically stabilized projectiles.
You're overthinking(and underthinking) this situation. If you're firing your weapon at someone wearing a vest, then the shit
has hit the fan. You aren't going to have the opportunity to use poison, because 99 times out of 100 your target have the
ability to return fire. So, forget poison, it's not for this application, and it sounds rather k3wlish when you look at the feasibility.
So let's look at this.
Problem: You're shooting at someone wearing a vest. He's most likely armed, and he may or may not be firing at you
already, and might have you overpowered.
Solutions:
1) Fire tight groups into the chest while advancing, get a headshot when you can. I don't care what hes wearing, hes still going
to be feeling those rounds behind the vest, see http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm for what I mean. And, you might
manage to punch through if your groups are tight enough.
2) Systematically disable your target, and advance as possible. Fire at what's exposed: arms, legs, the head. And again, if
you've got a clear shot to the chest, take one or two. Wind the fucker, because it makes it much harder for him to return fire.
3) USE A RIFLE! I'm sorry, but a pistol is no match to a rifle, save few circumstances. And don't go full auto unless you're within
40 meters(actually, at any distance that you can't hold each round on a silhouette of a target) because otherwise you won't hit
what you're shooting at very reliably. Well placed shots always beat shots that don't even go near your target.
You'll also do much better using standard self defense rounds with reliable, tested ballistics and penetration. I'm a real fan of
Hornady TAP rounds( http://hornady.com/ ), cor-bon rounds, and for .40 s&w you can't go wrong with 180 grain Remington
"Golden Sabers". Hot loads, but a double tap will put anyone on their ass, vest or no vest.
Also, it just occured to me that your target is dynamic in a way that can work for you. A vest isn't going to be doing your target
much good if it's exposing it's side to you, as in a Weaver stance, which is what I personally use and is very popular(although
the "modern" isosceles stance is gaining popularity again)... because there's little protection offered there, and if you hit
someones rib cage with a heavy round there, they're going to get winded, or end up with cracked ribs.
PS: You aren't rambo, and you're going to need to reload. Practice, practice, practice.

Succinylcholine Chloride is a very effective poison for use in bullets, as it paralyzes the extremities within seconds, and stops
respiration within a minute.
Load buckshot pellets with this, skip fire it under their cars, and give 'em a minute to die. :)
Teflon and Moly have ZERO to do with vest penetration. Lubrication has no bearing on penetration. The hardness, geometery,
and velocity of the penetrator DOES.
ShadowMyGeekSpace September 18th, 2006, 12:46 AM

One minute is much longer than needed to catch a bullet in the chest. Teflon has nothing to do with it, but moly does.
I was at a range about a year back with a friend, and there was a guy there with his chronograph. Naturally, we went over and
spoke to him. He invited us to shoot with him, and we gladly excepted. That day I fired 15 rounds of 180gr, .40 Hornady TAP
rounds out of a glock 23, and got an average muzzle velocity of 955FPS, slightly higher than I should have gotten ( hornady
claims 950FPS. ).
Then, the guy (I think his name was Tim) asked if we wanted to try moly coating some of our rounds. I said sure, and he
proceeded to apply moly to the exposed portion of about 30 rounds. After he was done, I reloaded my mag, and went through
a clip again, and got an average velocity of 1150FPS, a good 200FPS faster than I was supposed to be getting.
Now, I'm too lazy to do real math right now, so I'll do this slightly ghetto. Hornady claims 361FLBS @ 950FPS(muzzle), 326 @
903(50 yards), and 297 @ 862(100 yards).
((361 / 950) + (326 / 903) + (297 / 862)) / 3 = an average of .361855 footpounds per FPS the round was fired at.
Given that, my rounds went from ~361 foot pounds of energy, to ~416.13325 foot pounds. Granted, this is an inaccurate
measurement(well, technically a computation, not even a measurement), but it's close enough to what real world figures would
be.
That does have something to do with vest penetration. I'm sure you could get better results with handloads and fully coated
rounds, not to mention moving up to 280gr in .45 ACP... although, there's a larger surface area there, so it might not do any
better. Increasing the barrel length from 4 inches to 4.5 or 5 would increase velocity some more, and thus energy put into a
.40 calibur circumference. You could also up the weight of your projectile, I've seen a .40 USP tactical(5 inch barrel) take 26
280gr rounds without a failure @ a steady 910FPS, or a kaboom... and Tim just grinned at us.
Go german engineering, eh?

Does an extra 300FPS make any difference in the penetration capability of a FMJ .45ACP round against a vest?
No.
Because that just means that the bullet gets flattened out all that more quickly.
Your bullet has to be capable of penetrating the vest by being HARD enough and SHARP enough to break through the weave
and not deform while doing so.
Only after those two problems are covered do you then come to the matter of pushing it FAST enough to do so.
Also, please notice the mention I made of paralysis of the extremitites in seconds caused by SC. In less than 10 seconds, all
motor functions to the limbs (arms/legs) ceases, rendering the victim unable to stand or move.
It takes a minute to stop their breathing, but they'll be helpless far quicker than that.
Watch the end of the LA Bank Robbers. If the cops had been shooting such bullets, the gun fight would have been over before
it even begun.
Remember when Emil was hiding behind the car and shooting at the cops? It took a couple minutes for him to give up, even
after being shot multiple times in the feet and legs. Not so with SC bullets.
RTPB "Poison your weapons"

Hrm, I can see your point. If you were doing handloading you could easily make a mold so you'd have consistant projectile
shape(and consistant feeding in your weapon), and you could choose your metal.
As for poison, it's still not a real viable solution, what if you have to take a shot within 10 feet and end up breathing some of it
in yourself?
Personally, I would have dealt with the target behind the cover of a vehicle situation by pumping a few mags into the gas tank,
or using effective tactics such as advancing fire w/ covering fire. I don't know the exact angle the engagement was in, but if I
had to guess, and he was smart, he had an engine block inbetween him and bullets, so flanking would have been an option
too.
edit: I also want to say, while the first FMJ might not penetrate, subsequent rounds may, and if not, I still wanna see someone
up and walking/operating their weapon after taking ~416.13325+ footpounds of energy to the chest, multiple times. Thats
easily enough to crack ribs behind a 3a vest, and turn a level 4 trauma plate into little pieces/dust(or shrapnel! Spall damage,
anyone?)
oregon-machinist September 18th, 2006, 03:40 AM

shoot where there is no Armor is the most logical.
All references to exotic ammo or weapons negates one reality check:
You are always going to shoot "the weapon you have".
As far as where to shoot upon a target, most speak of the head shot as effective.
It is, but few think of how hard that is to actually hit.
A target Five Times the size and very unprotected is the area of the Groin & Thighs.
First as a target area any hit will attract the bad guys attention!
Next, medically speaking there are some major arteries for bleedout, and Femor arteries can bleed out in just a few minutes
without intervention, and destruction of the femur or hip is a major stoppage factor.
The fact that said target is more likely to be stationary exists as well, heads bob & weave during firefights, the stated target
area does not move as much.
And if you have struck the target within that zone, their mobility is greatly reduced, as compared to a grazed head for
example, moving with a grazed thigh will be extremely painfull, the muscle groups will be in shock.
As far as creating a projectile to penetrate body armor itself, I would suggest a small lathe, a BRONZE projectile and the
conical tip as was seen in the photograph.
Bronze would be easy on the barrel, lighter weight so it could be pushed faster; and has been proven out in actual use by
some people who wanted to do a withdraw from an armored car...
The Brennke Shape shotgun slug in Bronze, penetrated armored glass (windshield) killing the driver, and allowing a small
group of money collectors to help themselves!
That would be my choices in survival of a firefight.

Bronze would be easy on the barrel, lighter weight so it could be pushed faster; and has been proven out in actual use by
some people who wanted to do a withdraw from an armored car...Use a handgun with polygonal rifling like a glock or a H&K
USP, the USP can take some serious abuse from hot loads, but the glock needs an aftermarket barrel for that because of its
unsupported chamber in the 6 oclock position(not a bad thing, helps it feed, but glock says not to use hot loads in their
weapons because of the barrel).

Knowing the basics helps:
http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm
And I believe that most machined AP bullets are made from brass, not bronze, though both are used.
How on earth you figure on breathing in the poison from an encapsulated round? :confused:
It's not like I'd be using as buffer powder for shotshells. :p

nbk: I'm well aware of the basics, I just was thinking in a different mindset. And, if you fire, and its a through and through,
and strikes a wall, thats bad mojo. If you miss and strike a wall, that's bad mojo.
Also, I want to point out that brass ammunition doesn't fire well from polygonally rifled barrels, if you do make handloads,
keep this in mind. Brass jacketed ammunition also gives shit accuracy out of every weapon I've ever fired them out of, so I
assume the same would be true of an all brass round. Anyways, wouldn't brass be a bad decision because of how soft it is?

Brass and bronze are alloys, just like steel. And, just like steel, the alloys composition determines its properties.
The brass used in a THV bullet is not the same used in making the casing, or a candlestick.
I'm not exactly sure as to why they use it, but I think it has to do with being soft enough to engage the barrels rifling, while
having the density and ductility to penetrate.
And the only weapons that I know of with polygonal barrels are Glocks and HK's (though surely you can get aftermarket for any
gun), so why would that be an issue?
If you're not shooting off a full drum into a wall at point-blank range and running into the dust cloud to take in deep lungfuls
of it, I don't see how even a few hundred milligrams of dispersed SC poison in the air of a typical room would be an issue,
since it's non-effective by inhalation (AFAIK).
If I was tainting them with MPTP, or some other super-potent neurotoxin, that'd be a different story.
Docca September 19th, 2006, 07:27 AM

No, a tank barrel is smooth bore because rifling can only effectively/efficiantly apply stabilization to projectiles of a certain
length:diameter ratio, and tank rounds are just too big. Better results are seen with aerodynamically stabilized projectiles.
There are two distinct reasons for smooth bore tank barrels.
A. IIRC, they originated with the use of shaped charge projectiles. Armor penetration with a shaped charge projectile degrades
by ~70% if the projectile is spinning (centrifugal force reduces the penetration of the charge).
B. You are correct that longer rounds (e.g. hardened penetrator) require a faster spin, which can become a maintenance
problem on tank barrels. It can be done, but given the relatively short range of most tank shots, you're generally as well off
(regarding accuracy) with fin stabilization and you don't trash barrels as fast.
abouali September 19th, 2006, 06:02 PM

Modern handgun bullets.
http://www.world.guns.ru/ammo/bullets-e.htm
THV - "Tres Haute Vitesse" - "Very High Speed" (French)
Light high-speed core-less bullet with high stopping power
SJ ESC - Semi-Jacketed Exposed Steel Core
Light Armour-piercing bullet with hardened steel core. Bullet has alluminium jacket that covers all except the head of bullet.
Designed in Russia for 9mm cartridges such as 9x18mm Makarov PBM and 9x21mm SP-10. This bullet, fired from Makarov, is
capable to penetrate standart army issue armor vest at 30 meters. When loaded in more powerful 9x19 or 9x21 cartridges,
this bullet shows even more potential.
oregon-machinist September 20th, 2006, 06:27 AM

And I believe that most machined AP bullets are made from brass, not bronze, though both are used.
Although you are most likely correct as to ~most~ AP are brass, I would humbly offer that is due to easier Machining as well as
a cost factor, than for all out performance.
I have extensive milling time on Bronze, it is much harder to mill than brass.
Brass has more ductility (ability to stretch & be shaped) than Bronze.
Bronze was used to cast cannon barrels... and is still used extensively in making Bearings, due to its hardness.
The quality of Bronze that would be useful is that it is ~much~ harder to work than brass, esp. Phosphor Bronze which is what I
used to cast and machine.
(casting Phosphor Bronze, hack hack hack, please ventilate your shop!!! :eek: )
That hardness would be a favorable aspect in penetration of "barriors", because it would withstand being "mushroomed" far
longer than brass, which takes the "path of least resistance" whenever it is worked.
So, for the hobby bullet maker who wanted good penetration, I would go with solid Bronze, and sharp tools....
BTW, I have two Taig Lathes (one of the brands mentioned previously).
I have successfully cut Bronze to a factor of .0004 inches repeatedly, so to create a small caliber projectile with the same
dimensions would be fairly easy, with repeatable accurate results.
JakeGallows September 20th, 2006, 11:56 PM

NBK - no disrespect but I'd have to see more info regarding the use of Succinylcholine on ammunition... I agree that as far as
paralytics go, it has the most rapid onset. That onset is within a minute when given IV, but I wouldn't count a bullet as
delivering meds faster than IV, particularly since they usually cause bleeding out not delivery in.
Plus it would have to be fairly concentrated to have significant effect since 10mL is a normal dosage (I have forgotten the
concentration, but that is what might be administered at a hospital) and that is simply incomprehensible to deliver via bullet.
Certainly increasing concentration is doable but it doesn't come that way (that I've ever seen). The dosage (via bullet) would
be interesting to know, since its use as a paralytic is usually administered IV and therefore most of the dosage information is
IV or IM.
nbk2000 September 21st, 2006, 03:17 AM

I read the details of its use as a punishment by the california prison system up until the 70's, in a medical journal. That, and
insulin shock.
There, it was described as 10mg for an adult male, intravenously, with symptoms as described.
A FMJ with an enclosed hollowpoint could easily hold 100mg which, even accounting for loss to bleeding, would still be more
than adequate, because it's buried deeply into the body tissues and organs of the victim, so it's sure to take rapid effect. :)
SC, BTW, is a powder, not a liquid. It's used in a solution for use in operations, but it's stored as a powder because it breaks
down in storage as a solution.
Arisaka September 25th, 2006, 06:29 PM

Another idea that came to me was drilling the center out of a FMJ, inserting an impact sensitive explosive behind it, and
closing the hole with a steel spike. Theoretically on impact the spike would be driven into the explosive causing an explosion
that would then send then spike forward into the target.
If you drill out a FMJ dan you can put some steel pellets in it and top te bullet of with some candle grease.
On impact the steel pellets don't crush and will try to penetrate.
(Sorry for my bad translation :o )
neo-crossbow November 16th, 2006, 03:52 AM
While we're at it, is a 7.62x25 steel core (not special AP-s, just old Red Army surplus) any good against a class IIIA?
For many years I was forced to cut down .222 rem cases, neck them down and then fire form to 7.62 X 25 because the ammo
in Australia dried up over night. I had a cheap norinco that was missing the clip to retain the slide pin, so it was wrapped with
wire at the time. You would undo the wire to diss-assemble it.
I might have to dig up a slide pin retaining clip and literally dig up the rest of it should this be the case. But I won't be looking
forward to making more cases for it.
electricdetonator November 25th, 2006, 01:10 PM

The easiest way would be to make own brass bullets with small guide bands and drill a hole into its center.
Then use a good ammunition like the mentioned 7,62x25 Tokarev or 7,63 Mauser.
Or just take a full metal jacket and melt all the lead out of it, put a steel BB for airguns in its tip and push a steel cone in it to
fix the BB and straighten the bullet.
The brass hollow point will penetrate the vest and burst when it'll hit compressable liquids / tissue, causing a heavy shock and
when hit the proper area death instantly.
The full metal jacket will have a very high speed and the BB enough durability to penetrate the vest but wont break within the
body, instead it'll start to tumble.
It's depending on your skills what kind of bullet you'll make ;)

I'm sure I've said this before, but the only difference between the regular Green dot ammo made at Radway Green for
shooters, and the Sniper round, is that the sniper round gets a small piece of hardened steel wire dropped in the head of the
bullet first, before the lead is swaged into place. That gives it far more impressive armour piercing effect than you would
expect.
Deft December 19th, 2006, 01:31 AM

The AP frangable rounds made from "blended metal" available from RBCD of San Antonio are the ones they are talking about
from what I have gathered. In emails with the distributor they hinted at the fact that it was armor piercing. The rounds do not
perform in ballistics gell as well as some conventional munitions but tehy say thats because its not warm enough as it is
cooled, who knows. Would be nice if there was more info in form of video testing etc.
++++++++
They've been discredited. NBK
115vAC December 28th, 2006, 09:39 PM

A quick control F on each page for "tungsten" yielded nothing along the lines of what I'm about to suggest, but I apologize if
its already been said in other words.
Its pretty simple, while I was sharpening my tungsten welding electrode for Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (TIG) I realized that with
a minimal amount of effort, I could modify a JHP rifle round using little more than a drill press or dremel tool to accept a
length of tungsten welding electrode.
There are different grades/alloys of tungsten electrodes are used for various metals, I'm not sure if the tungsten core used in
munitions is a specific alloy, but if this isn't the case you could easily pick up a pack of ten, 7" long 3/32 diameter tungsten
electrodes for around $15. 1/8" diameter and 5/32" are also available, but a little more costly. Diamond grinding wheels would
be necessary if any sort of special sharpening was desired (Sort of pricey, but will last you a LONG time for said purpose).
There is a way you could sharpen the tungsten using an oxy torch or maybe MAPP gas but I've never attempted it, and it
probably doesn't give very reproducable results.
Pure tungsten is identified by a green band, and red banded tungsten is 2% thoriated (mildly radioactive, but I couldn't tell
you how harmful, I just try not to breath the dust :P). I'm not sure how you'd cut it, although tungsten can be very brittle, so a
pair of pliers and a vice should be more than enough to snap off a piece. You may need to score the tungsten prior to
snapping, if you're looking for specific lengths/results/whatever.
Id test this myself, but theres nowhere in my current locale that I can let off a few custom .30-06 armor piercing rounds on
mild steel plates :P If someone does try this though, please let me know how it goes! Throw a couple rounds at (through?)
some hot rolled steel of varying thickness and post the pictures!

The above n00b bothered me with a PM to ask me why his post wasn't up after waiting only SIX MINUTES! :rolleyes:
I guess some people just miss all the warnings that new member posts are moderated...at sign-up, at the top of every section
in an announcement, and immediately after posting. :p
tigerlizard January 12th, 2007, 12:59 AM

I find it hard to imagine glass amunition doing more damage than any normal round. However, both glass and plastic ammo
are "outlawed" by the Geneva Convention because, "they make it extraordinarily difficult to treat a wound" and "are particularly
nasty". So there must be some validity to it...
Although a glass bullet has never actualy been made because it is way more efficent to use other materials.
Also I think it's funny to say,

"the first shot would be stopped, but the damaged caused by the pellets tearing and bunching up the fibers would allow any
subsequent bullet impacts in the same area to pass through unhindered."
Any decent amunition will be able to punch through if you keep shooting it the exact same spot. Which would be pretty hard, if
you can shoot that good shoot where there is no armor.
Remember, nothing is truly bullet proof. I read (I don't remember which thread) that if you know what you want to shoot
through and they can make you a bullet for it.
Dr HigZ March 2nd, 2007, 10:22 PM

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=680
"The pistol will fire any NATO-spec 9mm Parabellum ammo (9x19mm), but it's designed specifically to utilize the 9mm PBP
cartridge, which is a very hot AP (armor-piercing/armor-penetrating) version of the 9x19mm Parabellum in order to defeat
body armor. This is inline with the Russians'... "
It is illegal here in the US though.
Mauser7 April 27th, 2007, 12:34 PM

If you are going to be in a situation where you need to penetrate body armor you will be at a serious disadvantage using a
pistol or pistol calibers. Most full power rifle rounds will penetrate level III body armor and certainly defeat level II armor.
Full power rifle rounds would be considered the 7.62x54r, 8mm mauser, 30-06,.308, etc. I conducted a test with 7.62x54r
ammunition on 1/4 inch diamond plate at 50, 150, 200 and 300 yrds. I was using surplus hungarian 147 grn steel core
ammunition. The surplus steel core tended to penetrate better than the lead core soft point hunting ammunition. I could
consistently penetrate 2 steel plates spaced one ft. apart up to 200 yards. At 300 yards the round fragmented hitting the
second plate and did not penetrate the second steel plate.
Intermediate cartridges such as the 7.62x39 and .223 would be the next best choice. I tested the 7.62x39 using Wolf 123 grn
fmj ammunition. I could consistently penetrate the steel plate up to 150 yards while at 50 yards I could penetrate both steel
plates.
I also tested .38 special and .45 acp against the steel plates at 25 yards. A few of the bullets were stuck in the steel plate
partially penetrating while most of them were deflected. I did not have consistent penetration although it would be very
uncomfortable to be wearing any type of armor and be hit with those rounds. The ammo used was Winchester white box
ammunition.
Pointed steel core pistol ammunition would be your best bet for penetration, unfortunately it is not legally sold in the US. The
most effective round for penetration would be the steel core surplus rifle ammunition, which can be bought at gun shows or
online for about 10 cents a round. The cheapest rifle ammunition would be the commie surplus in 8mm mauser or 7.62x54r. I
have also seen 30-06 armor piercing ammunition and it is recognized by the black tip painted on the bullet. I have not tested
it but it is not cheap either, at gun shows I have seen it sell for about 15 dollars for a package of 10.
Gumby May 17th, 2007, 04:53 PM

Simply put you want to put as much force into as small of an area as possible, to defeat armor, however to kill a person it is
preferable to create the largest cavity wound possible so ex while flechett ammunition is excellent and penetrating Kevlar it is
terrible at actually causing a debilitating wound where as hollow points are great at causing those wounds but terrible at
penetrating armor. With the exception of some proprietary blended metal ammunition , which like many other pistol
ammunitions are illegal, most pistol bullets do not perform well in both areas.
In reality you dont need to penetrate the Kevlar to kill the wearer, a .44 mag to the chest of someone wearing level 3 armor
or below is not going to be having a nice day. The same thing can be said about a shotgun slug, yes it isnt going to penetrate
the armor but it delivers so much blunt trauma that it doesnt matter that much.
You can come up with many fancy methods of shooting at someone, but it is the simple and effective method that is going
to be the winner at the end of the day.
Xenodius May 17th, 2007, 07:28 PM

Skimming posts, Gumby has a pretty good point.
I have ~2,500 rounds of military surplus ammo, 8x57 Mauser, Berdan primed steel casings, corrosive, FMJ, 2700 fps, spam-
canned airtight.
After obliterating a very large sandstone rock with several shots a while ago, upon looking at the rubble I noticed a copper
jacket-- hollow-- on the ground, with one end perfect, and the other end essentially exploded. Scouring the rubble more, I
found 3 cores and 4 more jackets (Fired 5rds) and after examination I believe that these cores are actually steel. Granted
tungsten cores are preferable but this is a cheap and unquestioned source of 'armor-piercing' ammo... I haven't seen any for
sale on the internet, but 'Sportsman's Warehouse' still sells spam-cans of it, 320rds each, I think for like 25cts/rd.
And I can personally testify plastic-tipped ammunition does a number on any target as long as it is not very thick. Squirrels,
for example, after being shot with a 22-250 or .17 HMR generally gain an extra 2 feet of length due to splayed organs. It also
literally foams the blood...
Gumby May 17th, 2007, 07:40 PM

...after examination I believe that these cores are actually steel...
The surplus .50 BMG ammunition I buy has a steel core... I know for a fact because I removed the copper jack to make sure.
My guess is that if you checked most FMJ ammunition has a steel core. I'm not sure you'd really call that ammunition "AP" but
against a vest that was designed to withstand pistol ammunition it sure would.
JakeGallows May 21st, 2007, 11:34 PM

So there are bullet-resistant and knife resistant vests right? Each of which stands up to the threat for which it is designed
reasonably (for the sake of argument) well... However my understanding is that bullet-resistant vests have a much harder
time with knives and vice versa.
What's to stop someone from making bullets that are pointed and sharp? Sure you would lose some tissue damage by the
fact that it would have increased penetration and it probably wouldn't be particularly advantageous against ceramic plates but
it might enable you to have better penetration from handgun rounds... My expectation is that to have real success you would
need to have the jacket (or better: cast pointed aluminum or steel bullets) be pointed, simply reshaping through grinding
down copper jacketed lead core bullets would leave pointed lead which may deform pretty easily.
Anyone have any experience or thoughts?
nbk2000 May 22nd, 2007, 03:34 AM

Look up THV or KTW + bullets in google and see what shape they are.
Charles Owlen Picket May 22nd, 2007, 11:42 AM

reasonably...
Stab vests are quite expensive and the NIJ has also had a tough time rating them. The use of something like an ice-pick will
divide fibers as it pushes through.
To the best of my knowledge if a pointed instrument is driven with the weight of the individual user there needs to be some
plate material available to stop it from driving into the wearer. The use of a broad-bladed knife on the other hand is not too
difficult to stop. The fibers stop coming apart and the knife is kept from entering the body. But some of the "knives" that
would be utilized in such an encounter would be of the "ice-pick" design.
Even older body armor from the US/UK military would resist a broad bladed knife (bowie-style, etc) as the design of the
resistant material is layered to keep any pointed object from encountering the same weave pattern. It MAY be this alteration
in weave pattern that makes one vest superior to another.
Therefore is may be that aside from shear force (.50 bmg) a 17-22 cal centerfire may be the best bet to defeat vests.
Jacks Complete May 23rd, 2007, 08:24 PM

The rotation of the bullet lends a great deal to the vest being able to stop it. As it starts to penetrate, the bullet slows and
starts to expand, which, as it rotates, lets the fibres work in the pulling direction, where they are very, very strong. A knife, on
the other hand, pushes the fibers apart.
To stop AP rounds, a plate is required to start the expansion of the bullet on impact. Otherwise, they zip right through the soft
armours in the same way as a sharp knife.
I wrote a load of other stuff, but the forum logged me out while I was busy looking for stuff, but, here you go, it's the UK knife
standards test procedure, and the UK gun standards test procedure.
LibertyOrDeath May 30th, 2007, 10:49 PM

The most comprehensive ballistics chart I've seen yet is this one at Pinnacle Armor's site (they make the highly-touted Dragon
Skin which has been in the news recently):
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php
Any rifle of reasonable power (e.g., military calibers like 5.45x39, 7.62x39, or 5.56x45) will easily penetrate any body armor
rated lower than NIJ Class III. Handguns are another matter. The bullets listed as being a threat greater than Class III-A
(e.g., the KTW) are all no longer available for public sale in the US.
One possible way to replicate the performance of these bullets without having to make your own from scratch might be to start
with a Barnes Solid (brass) rifle bullet of the appropriate diameter and then shorten the bullet's length to that of a standard
lead-core bullet. Barnes Solids are readily available to the public for use by handloaders:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/banded-solids/
If the right diameter can't be found, then I suppose a lathe could be used to reduce the diameter. The flat-nosed larger
caliber solids offered by Barnes should also be modified to something more conical.
On a general note: When modifying bullets for a handgun or rifle, be careful not to change the weight too much. If you make
a bullet too heavy for the powder load and primer that's standard for the unmodified bullet, then you could dangerously
increase chamber pressures and rupture your gun. The hardness of these bullets alone might also cause pressure issues when
used with a normal primer/powder load, so it would be a good idea to fire your first bullets remotely (e.g., string tied to
trigger) from behind a barrier and then check the brass for signs of high pressure before hand-firing.
MarkIX May 31st, 2007, 08:23 AM

reasonably (for the sake of argument) well... However my understanding is that bullet-resistant vests have a much harder
time with knives and vice versa.
What's to stop someone from making bullets that are pointed and sharp? Sure you would lose some tissue damage by the
fact that it would have increased penetration and it probably wouldn't be particularly advantageous against ceramic plates but
it might enable you to have better penetration from handgun rounds... My expectation is that to have real success you would
need to have the jacket (or better: cast pointed aluminum or steel bullets) be pointed, simply reshaping through grinding
down copper jacketed lead core bullets would leave pointed lead which may deform pretty easily.
Anyone have any experience or thoughts?

Bullets spin, if you wanted a bullet with a knife it would have to be something like a spade bit, not exactly a slicing weapon. I
wonder if a hardened cap over a dense lead core would help penetrate weave vests, they're useful on AP cannon shot to
prevent shattering on impact, they might slow expansion until after penetration, might help in causing the bullet to tumble as
well.
MarkIX June 3rd, 2007, 05:16 AM

On a general note: When modifying bullets for a handgun or rifle, be careful not to change the weight too much. If you make
a bullet too heavy for the powder load and primer that's standard for the unmodified bullet, then you could dangerously
increase chamber pressures and rupture your gun. The hardness of these bullets alone might also cause pressure issues when
used with a normal primer/powder load, so it would be a good idea to fire your first bullets remotely (e.g., string tied to
trigger) from behind a barrier and then check the brass for signs of high pressure before hand-firing.Why risk a useable
weapon start with reduced loads and work up oveload pressure pushes out and therfore flattens the primers long before it's
dangerous to the gun that's easy to see, you might also see case stretching and deformation as well. Most cases you won't
have trouble because most metals are less dense than lead and brass as an example is I've been told is fairly low friction as
well. That aside working up from a safe loading is always good practice
Jacks Complete June 3rd, 2007, 09:41 AM

Just as a thought, but using a drill bit as your hardened insert (or entire bullet) would probably be rather effective. I'd suggest
cutting to length then coating with something rubber-like so it doesn't destroy the barrel.
When fired, the front cutting edge would probably rip right through any soft armour available, as it would cut rather than bind.
Hard plates would shatter, and stop it like normal, probably, though if you used a hardened drill bit, or even a masonary one,
you might find your new bullet is harder than the plate!
LibertyOrDeath June 17th, 2007, 08:05 PM

MarkIX,
Yes, it's definitely good handloading practice to start from the minimum powder load listed in a handloading manual for a
given set of components and then work one's way up to the maximum load. And you've mentioned some classic signs of
overpressure that are definitely important for people to know.
However, by using improvised or home-modified bullets for which data can't be found in any manual, you're venturing into
unknown territory. You can increase pressure to dangerous levels by changing properties of the bullet such as hardness,
length, etc.
Why not just start with really tiny powder loads and work your way up, then? Because there's a minimum safe charge as well as
a maximum for a given set of components:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=299
I'm not an expert on this, but my understanding is that if a powder charge is too small, then it might cause a rupture by not
pushing the bullet out of the bore quickly enough to provide timely pressure relief.
The bottom line is that there's a window of safety in the powder charge that may be hard to determine for modified bullets.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone's experimentation, but these are issues that people should definitely be aware of. Firing
remotely (with a string tied to the trigger or whatever) while standing behind a barrier, and then checking the brass for signs of
overpressure, isn't a bad idea.
Just as a thought, but using a drill bit as your hardened insert (or entire bullet) would probably be rather effective. I'd suggest
cutting to length then coating with something rubber-like so it doesn't destroy the barrel.That's definitely the right kind of
material (e.g., tungsten carbide), but I suspect that using it as an insert would probably be a lot safer. The wrong method of
coating a bullet might interfere with the bullet's glide through the bore and cause a pressure-related rupture.
Of course, if the bit is used as an insert, it has to be inserted very symmetrically along the bullet's axis in order to prevent a
loss of accuracy and even penetration power. But setting up a drill to do that wouldn't be too hard.
prespec June 21st, 2007, 04:59 AM

Low powder charges particularly in larger rifle cases can lead to serious over-pressure. It can also occur in parralell walled cases
as some Cowboy action shooters have found to their detriment, while trying to duplicate black-powder pressures with
smokeless.
In both instances, more powder area is immediately available to the primer flash, resulting in immediate ignition of the
available powder resulting in detonation, rather than progressive burning.
As for an expedient AP round, a piece of steel 5/32"-3/16" ,sharpened to about a 90 degree included angle and inserted in a
modified HP bullet would do nicely. The bullet would simply act as the carrier and strip away as the more resistant material was
encountered.
It would not be necessary to alter a pistol bullet too much to achieve this and it could be weighed to determine the safe load.
Doing the same to ,say, a .30 cal rifle bullet may change it's bore resistance, but provided there is lead and copper
surrounding the core, is unlikey to render it unsafe if it has the jacket formed from the rear.
Cutting the nose off FMJ projectiles to excess, can lead to the core being expelled , leaving the jacket in the bore and setting
up for extreme pressures on the next shot.
As a child I owned a fairly anaemic .177 air rifle, but using a piece of steel nail sharpened to this fairly blunt profile and
inserted into a section of ballpoint pen tubing, would allow even this to penetrate an oil drum.
Same principal, just more energy with the bigger stuff.
Jacks Complete July 2nd, 2007, 08:28 PM

FWIW, the only difference between the UK civilian sales Radway Green target rifle ammo and the Sniper military only stuff, is
that the sniper round has a small piece of hardened steel wire dropped into the tip of the copper before the lead core is
swaged in. This apparently increases the target penetration quite a lot.
You could easily replicate this by heating a copper jacketed round until the lead core fell out, then add your steel (or carbide)
and then swage the lead back in (or pour it back in as liquid, though the high surface tension would make it far harder to do.)
For a shotgun slug or lead nosed pistol round, you can easily make a jig to perfectly center a self-tapping screw into a pre-
drilled hole in the nose of a round (or, perhaps safer, a bullet) Just take care not to bulge it, or it either won't chamber or it
won't leave the barrel!
A.C.E. July 12th, 2007, 03:23 PM

The military full-calliber AP rounds that I've come into contact with consist of a solid steel core with a copper jacket. The core is
not bonded to the jacket and will break off at impact leaving the remaining steel bullet to do its job. The purpose of the jacket
is only to ensure a good fit to the barrel.
This kind of bullet will penetrate almost any bulletproof vest, no doubt about it. The downside is that they wont do as much
damage due to lack of expansion once inside the target.
Getting a hold of a box of these is a hassle though. The army watches over them like a hawk and I seriously doubt that you
can buy them. Making them yourself should be possible however, provided that you have a lathe and the neccesary
equipment to make the copper jacket.
The main advantage that this bullet design has over a sub-caliber round, or a steel-tipped one is the higher residual mass
and the lack of "moving parts" that a saboted or composite round has. It should also be easier to make.
neo-crossbow July 16th, 2007, 06:08 AM

Why not just start with really tiny powder loads and work your way up, then? Because there's a minimum safe charge as well as
a maximum for a given set of components:
I'm not an expert on this, but my understanding is that if a powder charge is too small, then it might cause a rupture by not
pushing the bullet out of the bore quickly enough to provide timely pressure relief.
I know this to be true, working up loads for SABOT 7.62 X 39 using 55gn .224 projectiles and 27gn .308 SABOTs with a halved
'max load' for 122 gn .308 projectiles.
I had a ruptured case, a broken H style buffer and the scare of my life.
I have since filled cases with dacron and used 'compressed' loads, still however haven't done any more 'load testing' with that
rifle or ammunition.
Jacks Complete July 20th, 2007, 04:42 PM

No-one has ever replicated a low powder barrel burst in the lab. Not ever.
I've loaded sub-grain charges and fired them without damage and without filler.
neo-crossbow August 1st, 2007, 01:16 AM

So its safe to start to process again? My wife wouldn't be impressed if I browned another pair of jeans...
Jacks Complete August 1st, 2007, 08:42 AM

What happened last time?
Give me the charges, calibre, bullet weight, etc. as well as the barrel length and primer type. PM it if you don't want it out in
the open.
For info, I've run as small as 0.7 grains of powder through a .44 magnum case. I might even have gone as low as 0.3. (If you
have a dig around you should find the notes)
When you get that small, though, the primer does most of the work, and you will want some kind of filler because otherwise
the power changes dramatically according to the position of the powder in the case.
nbk2000 August 6th, 2007, 12:12 PM

Found a picture of a 5.56 bullet loaded into a plastic sabot and fired from a 7.62x25mm Makarov pistol.
Given the already high-power (for a handgun) and a saboted 5.56mm AP bullet, this is supposed to capable of penetrating all
Level IIIa and some Level III SBA. :)
http://www.makarov.com/graphics/cz52/sabotstep02.jpg
Attached the picture, just in case it goes down from original site.
learfan August 9th, 2007, 04:41 AM

I've duplicated it, but it took a lot of stupidity.
In the early 80's I worked at a large gun store that sold a lot of reloading supplies. We sold a re-barrelled pre-64 Winchester
model 70 .308 to a doctor/wannbe sniper. We also sold him everything he needed to roll his own - an RCBS press (Dillon
didn't exist back then) with 500 empty Norma cases, 175g Sierra bullets, CCI primers, a couple of pounds of IMR 4064, and
the standard books on reloading. We even took him in back and ran babysat him as he loaded his first 25 rounds with my
boss watching, and took those rounds out back to our range (it was only 50 yards) and sat with him as he shot a 2" group. We
tried to be encouraging.
A few weeks later we were served with a lawsuit. He'd blown up his gun on his first trip to the range, with his first batch of
handloads. He didn't have any permanent damage (no fingers missing), but had been seriously hurt.
We couldn't figure it out. The rebarrel was done by a reputable shop (Pachmyer). It looked like a cartoon - shredded into 4
pieces, all peeled back. It couldn't have been a double charge, the powder wouldn't have fit in the case.
It came out in depositions. He'd shot 15 rounds (they had all the empties) then had a misfire. He waited 30 seconds in case it
was a "hang fire" then cycled the bolt and fired again.
We duplicated it at our range, with a less expensive post '64 rifle, a string on the trigger and a video camera.
The "misfire" was a primer only. The bullet was lodged halfway down the barrel, the next bullet met the first one and spiked
the pressure. Boom.
We got to examine the rest of his batch of hand-loads. He'd loaded 50 and shot 17. In the remaining 33 there were 2 more
rounds without powder - we found them by shaking them and listening, then proved it with a scale.
So it's possible to blow a rifle up with an extremely small charge - but you have to have a regular round to actually make the
kaboom.
ann September 21st, 2007, 02:06 PM

In our tests of AP pistol rounds it really comes down to the POINT with velocity second.
I have even seen the low 25acp able to defeat a class 2 aramid vest.
http://i5.tinypic.com/4knz33n.jpg
http://i1.tinypic.com/4kp3uxf.jpg
http://i10.tinypic.com/643280l.jpg
All rounds stopped in this class2 spectra test but a old school metal piercing 38spl and a fx 25acp...spectra even stopped a
.380acp KTW.
http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/30088/2001747880054258327_fs.jpg
Even a 9mm loaded with a few simple mild steel sharpened rods in a sabot will slice a class 3. Seen here in a cutaway.
http://i3.tinypic.com/4plqlax.jpg
BTW...KTW are NOT as effective as people think they are on soft armor in fact the lesser calibers are very poor AP.. They are
for hard targets.THV,ARCANES,TUBULARS,etc....are much more effective on aramid type targets.
goodman November 11th, 2007, 02:18 PM

I have a 9mm round that I was told was developed by (or for) the CIA to defeat body armor. I have no clue how well it works.
I don't imagine that it was intended for a level III vest with a ballistic plate.
It has an exposed core that has a fairly sharp-edged hollow cone tip that I think might be tungsten (or other super tough
metal) with a copper jacket. The cavity is quite deep, and much larger than a typical hollowpoint or wadcutter type bullet. There
may be some lead behind the core, or even surrounding it, because the overall weight of the entire round is pretty comparable
to a standard FMJ round.
I was told that the concept was that the sharpened core edge cuts through the fibers... (I can't post photos of it yet)
Jacks Complete November 19th, 2007, 07:42 PM

ann is correct. The first rule of armour is to make your target surface harder than what is hitting it. Same goes for drilling.
Learfan, very interesting, but totally unrelated to the low powder explosions, where a single shot from a mouse load has
allegedly blown a good modern rifle breech. I've seen a pistol (revolver) with 7 bullets stuffed in the barrel before the strap
failed. Yes, they fired all 6 at a clear target that remained clear, and reloaded, before it failed. And these were regular target
rounds, not especially low powered ones - regular soft-loaded .38, probably.
4Q4E3A December 26th, 2007, 10:50 AM

As ann has already said it is the point that does the penetrating, so what if you had a point that does penetrate armor and
you have a cartrage that has better grain eg solid rocket fuel. Solid rocket fuel is more energetic than gunpowder and might
produce more gas to propel the slug up and out of the gun barrel to the target.
wertyuiopasdfghjkl December 28th, 2007, 06:58 PM

Hard bullets: If I would be interested in shooting, were in a country where it's legal and could judge the dangers of barrel-
explosions etc., I might have the idea of trying hard bullets like this:
1 - tungsten rods are available as welding electrodes, several mm diameter (eg. 3.5, 2.5 etc.), prices at eg. 2 $/10 cm . They
are doped with small amounts of maybe thorium (1-2 %, for electron-emission) or other, also available undoped.
2 - brass and harder alloys may be shaped galvanoplastically (by electrolysis), slowly the piece, but large amounts in parallel.
That usually employs an electrolytical deposition-bath with the chemical compounds for all of the metals to be deposited (Sn,
Cu), and constantly varying the DC voltage (with some function-generator, sound-card+software etc.) in order to deposit more
or less of the metal with the higher deposition-voltage, thus varying the composition of the alloy deliberately.
Plenty of papers about that are on the net (I believe) .
Like that it would be possible to make mantles for the tungsten-cores of.eg. bronze, with outer mantles even softer by
depositing Sn or Pb (not sure about how good Pb can be deposited).
I would not bet on anything beeing directly deposable onto the tungsten (it seems to passivate like aluminum when used as
the oxidized electrode, but here it would be used as the reducing one), if not possible a thin graphite- or other conducting
layer would make it possible.
Of course the ready bullets can be treated thermally, to allow diffusion for an better intermixture of the Sn/Cu or whatever,
but: electrolytically deposited metals/alloys are usually _much_ harder (~ factor 3) then those made via other routes, due to
hydrogen-inclusions in the structure. Maybe this hardness would disappear with the temperature.
About the hardest metal that's common to be deposited electrolytically is chromium, it's _very_ hard (didn't find the numbers
now).
Besides it's also possible to deposit metals as _foam_, by using a somewhat higher current. This foam might be prepared to
be ignited when the thing is shot (soaking it with some oxidizer etc.), giving the very high temperature of metal+O combustion
within the target. (Eg. hard center of the bullet, then some foam (for lightweightness, maybe organically vacuum-impregnated
for mechanical strength), and _maybe_ an outer mantle of whatever soft metal to grip the rifling ; _maybe_ the foam burning
itself off an freeing the hard core (_maybe_ even acting as fuel)).
Now forget my phantasies about the foam, which may be to hard to make in good qlity to the average guy.
But I could bet on the tungsten-core and brass mantle to give something that even could penetrate some armor when shot
from pistols ...
Ney December 28th, 2007, 10:56 PM

I'm not sure,but I think this link will be found to be interesting :
Assault Rifle Cartridge M/2030

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html
Ney :)
wertyuiopasdfghjkl December 28th, 2007, 11:24 PM

Another, quite easy, way for hard bronze-projectiles, with or without tungsten core (from welding-electrodes):
Copper cable to be prepared for quality-soldering (i.e. with HCl or HNO3) as usual, soaked within an 500 centigrade tin-bath,
giving well-tinned copper-cable. Of course the cable has to be that made of lots of fine wires, not one thick.
Now this thing only has to be heated to the right temperature for the right amount of time to give, via diffusion/solid-state-
reaction, the bronze-alloy. (reducing conditions might help prevent oxidation, maybe as easy as putting some charcoal-pieces
into the oven (careful with the CO !))
Choose the caliber of the electric cable to match the barrel, insert the tungsten-core before the thinning or before the
annealing (drilling then therefore a hole in to the still soft copperwire/thin structure).
I have not tried this (me no shooter), don't blame me for any exploded barrels etc ..
The structure of the finished projectile might be fibrous, fibres of harder alloy contained within a softer (maybe elastic, however
good your metallurgy is) matrix. That can be abused by giving the copper-cable some structure before the thin-soaking, eg.
by introducing knots or whatever, _maybe_ manufacturing lenghty projectiles that split into several bullets or whatever you can
think of.
Of course hollow projectiles can also be made by using the copper-shielding of signal-cables for the purpose etc. .
ann January 4th, 2008, 02:28 PM

I have a 9mm round that I was told was developed by (or for) the CIA to defeat body armor. I have no clue how well it works.
I don't imagine that it was intended for a level III vest with a ballistic plate.
It has an exposed core that has a fairly sharp-edged hollow cone tip that I think might be tungsten (or other super tough
metal) with a copper jacket. The cavity is quite deep, and much larger than a typical hollowpoint or wadcutter type bullet. There
may be some lead behind the core, or even surrounding it, because the overall weight of the entire round is pretty comparable
to a standard FMJ round.
I was told that the concept was that the sharpened core edge cuts through the fibers... (I can't post photos of it yet)
You may have a "cyclone' tubular bullet..I can Id all types of this round if you get a pic. They were not cia but BATFE/fbi..etc...
Man Down Under January 4th, 2008, 03:53 PM

The Cyclone bullet is described in the novel Unintended Consequences, at the end, when it goes through Janet Reno's brain.
:D
I saw a PDF somewhere about a round that was based on the same principle. A supersonic .50BMG cookie cutter. :)
ann January 7th, 2008, 02:11 AM

I have tested the "cyclone" flatue rounds.They are the real deal NO BS. They were the issue ap round to dea,fbi and batfe up
to the 1990s ...may still be but I am out of loop.
Charles Owlen Picket January 7th, 2008, 10:03 AM

I have tested the "cyclone" flatue rounds.
Any pictures? I remember the Israeli 9mm you posted some months back....very unique stuff. ...Haven't seen the like ever
again

Boxes of guilford tubulars as issed to federal agents...very rare pic you will NOT see any other place.
Guilford 45acp tubular with a ultra rare smitar 45acp to the left It fires a razor edge knife blade encased in a nylon
sabot.Workes great was well tested in vietnam..you can not wear enough aramid to stop it.
To the right is a delayed explosive ap round as made for the cia by fx labs.Explodes inside the body not on contact as 99% of
explosive type rounds do.
Standard looking Ball round to the top is a bulleted shot shell...a very effective shotshell and bullet combo design.

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/ammo/shotgun_scmitr.gif
Manufacturer: Military Technologies, LIC
Military Technologies SCMITR shotgun ammunition is a direct result of request by various mailitary and civilian agencies for a
new class of shotgun ammunition that retained the high 1st round hit probability with extended range. Investigation of various
long range shotgun ammunition revealed that flechette type rounds showed the best long range performance and penetration,
but at the low velocities typical of shotguns, exhibited none of the lethality demostrated by the same projectile type when fired
a higher rifle velecities.
Upon studying the effectiveness of flechette ammunition, it was determined that lethality and wound tracks of shotgun
flechettes was directly proportional to the width of the stabilizing fins. SCMITR is a direct result of these studies.
The SCMITR flechette is a simple steel stamping with a bias imparted on the tail section to provide spin for stability. The
broad cross section results in a wide wound track, and the round is able to penetrate a standard aramid fiber ballistic vest or
steel helmet ar ranges in excess of 500 meters, while exhibiting equal or greater lethality than conventional 8mm pellet
ammunition and all at the same comparative cost per round. 12 flechettes are packed per standard 18x75mm shotgun shell.
It is packed in olive drab, plastic cased shells marked " 18.5x75mm SCMITR, cylinder bore only".
This round is known variously as " scimitar" or "razor"
So someone took one of these blades (or smaller version of) and made a sabot for it to be fired from a handgun. :) Sounds
easy enough to replicate.
In the picture of the bullets, the 3rd row up, third or forth from the left, Dixon Omega-Star?

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/ammo/shotgun_scmitr.gif
So someone took one of these blades (or smaller version of) and made a sabot for it to be fired from a handgun. :) Sounds
easy enough to replicate.
In the picture of the bullets, the 3rd row up, third or forth from the left, Dixon Omega-Star?
NEGATIVE...The 20ga round in the pic you have is what it is a 20ga scmitar...the 45acp was built as it is.I have a few 20ga
rounds.
The US Goverment had the 45acp rounds built in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
The 45acp versions are so rare that it will be very hard to find any info on them.
NEGATIVE..not a omega star pre frag round..its a jim cilliro bullet design that he used for head shots when working for the sou
in new york in the 1970s.It mushrooms into a square..wicked.

Isn't the flechette in the .45 round identical in design (but smaller) to the ones in the 20ga round pictured?
And why 20ga and not 12?
Regardless, that's a very nice collection you've got there. I'm envious.
ann January 9th, 2008, 01:13 AM

Isn't the flechette in the .45 round identical in design (but smaller) to the ones in the 20ga round pictured?
And why 20ga and not 12?
Regardless, that's a very nice collection you've got there. I'm envious.
Yes..I thought at first you were saying that the 45 used a modified 20ga blade.
The most common loading was 20ga..unknown why.
darkrequiem May 2nd, 2008, 05:13 AM

I think the idea of delivering a poisonous payload is a good idea. Do you think that using pure nicotine would do the trick. I
think you only need about 5 drops of pure nicotine to kill somebody and it can be easily extracted. I think it would be pretty
fast acting. Any thoughts?
ciguy007 May 5th, 2008, 01:25 AM

Metallic mercury is vastly over-rated as a source of poisoning. We (used) to handle literally dozens of exposures caused by
kids biting mercury thermometers in two. The glass was more of hazard than the mercury. People are so hysterical about
metallic mercury that they piss themselves over harmless quantities. That being said, some mercury compounds bichloride,
methyl, ethyl mercury can be quite toxic in low amounts. Metallic mercury can also be toxic if vaporized - the cases that come
to mind are modern-day gold panners who take the gold dust and sand they pan out of the creek, add metalic mercury to
make an amalgam, separate the rocks and sand physically then do something really dumb like putting the amalgam into the
kitchen oven and going to bed. Families have died doing this.
Asriel May 5th, 2008, 11:44 PM

1. I don't really see a reason why you'd need AP bullets in the first place as criminals very rarely wear vests.
2. But, you didn't hear this from me, but I've heard good things about the .22 subcaliber sabot round version of the 7.62x25
torkarev.
http://www.makarov.com/tokloaddata.html

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > Discontinued JHP Amm o
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HMTD Factory October 3rd, 2001, 04:52 PM

There was a type of JHP am mo being introduce d for a b rief period of time and soon discontinued. R e a s o n ? T o o g o o d a t w h a t
it's designed to do.
The obvious secret is in the extrem e b ullet design : It is an ordinary hollowpoint, except there is a slightly oversized(but far
s m a ller than bullet dia.) steel ball glued to the mouth of the bullet.
If you are thinking it looks like someone trying to put a n u n p e e l e d o r a n g e i n t o h i s m outh, you are right.
The steel ball first help penetrate arm or, then (violently) cam the bullet m o u t h o p e n , t h e n t h e s t e e l b a l l d e t a c h e s f r o m t h e
bullet, either stays in the target or creat another wound channel.
I wonder if the bullet will be too long to feed but since it's been m a r k e t e d I a s s u m e i t i s d esigned so it won't interfe re with
n o r m a l f e e d i n g / c h a m bering.
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y H M T D F a c t o ry (edited October 03, 2001).]
Predator October 3rd, 2001, 06:30 PM

I think the design of that particular bullet was so that a small steel ball (relatively light m etal) would have the energy of a
n o r m a l l e a d r o u n d ( h e a v i e r m etal, hence m ore energy) at the target, which it otherwise wouldn't have, and hence be able to do
m o r e d a m a g e than it otherwise would have done
I think the jhp was kind of just like a high energy bb de livery system that just happened to have a h i g h s h o c k v a l u e a s a s i d e
effect of the expanding but (probably) low penetrating jhp round
W ould be nice against lightly armoured targets as you said in that the bb would p ossibly penetrate the arm our (say a class2
bullet proof vest) while the jhp would d eliver a high shock value whilst flattening against the vest
AR-15 Man October 4th, 2001, 12:40 AM

I never heard of such a round but could see it's m erit. The little round would retain it's velocity until it has im pacted. W hile it
wouldn't cause the damage of a full sized bulle t it is a good com prom ise for a pistol. I don't see why this round would be
illegal in the US as th e core would still be lead. And m aking your own AP for pistols isn't illegal and rifle rounds aren 't restricted
for AP. I m ight have to try to m odify som e . 35 7 hollow points because that would be the easiest for m e . M a y b e g e t s o m e . 4 5
hollow points for my Tom m y g u n . W h a t drilling thru the hollow point and adding a pointed core tha t is steel that would
separate on impact? My only concern would be securing the steel good enough to hold up during firing but loose enough to
s e p a r a t e o n i m p a c t . O h y e a h a v e y o u a l l h e a r d of Federal Cartridges Expanding Full Metal Jacket? It feeds like FMJ but hits
like a hollow point.
Charlie Workman October 4th, 2001, 03:50 AM

The only round of this type I've ever seen was a .25 acp. The ball was meant to cause m u s h r o o m ing at low velocities. The
s h a p e a n d s p e e d o f t h i s b a l l w o u l d m ake it a p oor penetrator. Not saying it couldn't, just that it is unlikely. It's academic
anyway, since the ATF ruled that since the ball was steel, it fell u nder the laws covering AP pistol rounds.
BoB- October 4th, 2001, 04:05 PM

I wonder if a small sharpened steel spike would work better than a ball.
------------------
T e a m work is essential.
It lets you to b l a m e s o m e o n e e l s e .
Predator October 4th, 2001, 06:10 PM

doubt it.. theres a reason pointy bullets aren't popular.. the slightest deform a t i o n o n t h e s p i k e a n d y o u c a n s a y g o o d b y e t o
your aim
Agent Blak October 4th, 2001, 07:21 PM

That would be why the spike is just below the surface of the projectile. If I reloaded my own Am m o I would take a soft nose
boat tail(projectile), spin it in a lathe, drill a 1/64 tp 1/1 6 hole part way through. Then insert a drill bit or so m e t h i n g s i m iliar in
the hole and soulder it in place with electronics soulder. when all that was com pleted I would reload it.
when it hit its target the small drill bit would com e through still spining and I therorise that it would be able to go be tween the
links of a chain m ale that the vest(some vests) is backed with.
------------------
A wise man once said :
"...T here Will Be No
Stand O ff At High Noon
... Shoot'em I n T h e B a c k
And, Shoot'em I n T h e D a r k "
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
<a href="h ttp://briefcase.yahoo.com /bc/agent_blak/lst?.dir=/C-Spec+.docs&.order=&.view=l&.src=bc&.done=http%3a//

briefcase.yahoo.com /bc/agent_blak/lst%3f.dir=/C -Spec%2b.docs%26.src=bc%26.view=l">BriefCase</a>
EventHorizon October 4th, 2001, 10:58 PM

Drilling lead is easier said than done, so is soldering ha rdened steel.
RPM=720xMV/TW
Say a 5.56 @ 3200fps in 1 in 9 twist barrel, thats 256,000 rpm s. You would have to have it centere d and soldered just right or
it would likely tum ble as soon as it exited the barrel and tear itself apart.
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared m ind"-Louis Pasteur
P G P I D 0 x 1 4 7 C EF54
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y E v e n t H o r i z o n (edited October 04, 2001).]
HMTD Factory October 5th, 2001, 07:09 AM

I guess the reason it got banned is that no agency need such overkilling product. The killing power of it is in the expansion
caused by the steel b all camm ing into the bullet cavity.
Federal Expa nding FMJ? Is that the bullet with FMJ around a lead body and "m arshm allow" nose filling? If I am correct, it
inde ed is good, uniform expansion(the bullet literally turned into a six-blade fan)
Most soft m a t e r i a l c a n c a u s e a n H P t o e x p a n d m ore if filled into HP cavity...vaseline, wax, even cloth (Some early .303 Brit use
Dum -Dum bullets, wh ich had shredded cloth filled into bullet cavity.)
Hell, to m a k e b u l l e t s c o m e apart is darn easy. Manufacturers de velop m olecular bonding technology to make sure bullets stay
in one piece. So put them loosely together, it will com e apart.
I had a crate (pretty m uch gon e by now) of 7.62X39 from Norinco, they are typical fake softpoints : they are m ilitary amm o with
copperwashed steel jacket , green lacq u e r e d s t e e l c a s e , s t e e l c o r e , a n d o f c o u r s e , B e r d a n p r i m e d . T h e s e a r e d e s i g n e d t o l e t
the steel core penetrate hum a n b o d y .
SMA G 12B/E5 Novem ber 17th, 2001, 09:03 PM

In the early 60's it was not uncom mon for shooters to d rill or "hollowpoint" the .357 and 44 m agnums then screw in a
h a r d e n e d r o u n d n o s e m a c h i n e s c r e w . O n impact with a h ard target, much of the bullet m etal extending from u n d e r n e a t h t h e
screw's protective head would shear off. The screw, along with the rem ain ing lead protected by the screw head would penetrate
the target.
HMTD Factory Novem ber 30th, 2001, 09:07 AM

W ell, I just saw on the magazine that another m anufacturer(Black Hills?) is offering a similiar product, except with h ard
polym er balls instead o f s t e e l o n e s .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > 5.56 Flechette?
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Zyklon_B June 12th, 2002, 03:12 PM

Anyone know of a material that can be used to make a sabot in a 5.56 cartridge to deliver a flechette, and can those flechettes available from deactivated beehive rounds be
used?
PYRO500 June 12th, 2002, 03:37 PM

I assume by beehive rounds you are talking about those shotgun fletchette founds, I beleve a tungsten sabot in a copper jacket would work but I don't kow how well steel
would work
green beret June 12th, 2002, 11:11 PM

I dont have the answer to your question, but I know that the new Steyr ACR (Advanced Combat Rifle) fires 5.56mm flechette rounds, they have a very high muzzle velocity
and flat trajectory, the rifle looks a bit like the old AUS or AUG but is more streamlined and compact.
Anyhow, why dont you just try a few materials that you know wont damage your barrel? What weapon is it?
[ June 12, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: green beret ]
Zyklon_B June 13th, 2002, 12:32 AM

The weapon is a SIG 550.
This is what a flechette looks like: <a href="http://wljenterprises.com/1inchflechettes.jpg" target="_blank">http://wljenterprises.com/1inchflechettes.jpg</a>
Before I embarked on making such rounds I was hoping someone had success doing so in the past. I was thinking of using some polymer of some sort to keep the flechette
flying at super high velocity, or maybe using wood.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How about providing a link instead of bogging down the thread with a 100Kb pic? <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon17.gif" alt="" /> A little consideration for
us dial-uppers would be nice.
[ June 13, 2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
Charlie Workman June 13th, 2002, 02:57 AM

I've done a little previous work on this problem. A polymer such as nylon or teflon would make a good sabot. The problem is you have two types of stabilization being used- fin
and rifling. When the flechette leaves the barrel and discards the sabot it will be spinning from the rifling. When the air hits the fins your stability goes all to hell. If you can use
a smooth bore, you'll eliminate this problem. All of AAI's flechette weapons were smooth bores.
Microtek June 13th, 2002, 09:02 AM

Which is why flechettes are a nice way around the rifling problem with homemade firearms.
Zyklon_B June 13th, 2002, 02:46 PM

So then this Idea would be usefull in some sort of Zip gun. Maybe a Sten like weapon with smooth bore that takes AR15 magazines.
Anthony June 13th, 2002, 03:37 PM

Are you after a discarding sabot? If so, have you considered how you're going to ensure that the flechette and sabot stay attached during the acceleration in the barel, but
seperate on exiting the muzzle - and make this reliable?
For a non discarding sabot, I would try casting a lead slug around the shaft of the flechette which would add weight to aid penetration and also keep the velocity sensible - as
you requested. However the lead would probably disrupt the airflow over the flechette's fins, badly affecting accuracy. However this might be an advantage if firing from a
rifled barrel, if the fins are made ineffective. Or you could snip the fins off, but then you might as well use nails or something.
Why do you specifically want to fire a flechette from a rifle? Knowing the purpose/motive/desired effect would help people suggest solutions.
Zyklon_B June 14th, 2002, 12:32 AM

The purpose of using a flechette is to pierce body armor more efficiently. Thought now I think of it any weapon I make from this idea wouldnt be more versatile or as equally
so as any existing platform.
This might be a good idea for a small handgun type unit. To make the sabot stay on the projectile while its being fired isnt much of a problem with a discarding sabot since the
fins will prevent the flechette from going past the sabot. To keep both sides of the discarding sabot together one would have to make a female and male edge in each of the
two sections of the sabot as to make them interlock. I was thinking of two half moon shaped parts as the sabot that would fit together to make a sabot.
Xtramad June 14th, 2002, 03:06 AM

If the only purpose is to pierce body armour why not just use a armour piercing core? Welding electrodes for TIG welding are made of a tungsten-thorium alloy wich is easily
ground to a sharp point, are of consistant diameter and can be cut to the length you desire. If enbedded in a regular bullet they should fulfill your strange desires.
Use hollow point or soft nose bullets and make a drilling jig to ensure that each hole is identicle to the previous or you won't get any accuracy.
Charlie Workman June 14th, 2002, 03:10 AM

The dart would be able to slide right through soft kevlar like a sewing needle, but to what effect? I talked to Dr. Fackler a few years ago, on a related issue, and he expressed
his dim view of flechettes. During his service as a combat surgeon in VN he ran into a lot of VC carrying them around. In many cases, he said the wounds healed on their own.
This was not, of course, the guys that were too close to the beehive when it went off and caught a hundred or so of them. On the other hand, if you can load the dart with
something interesting, it would not leave much of an entrance wound to draw attention. Depending on the circumstances, the receiver might not consider it important enough
to seek medical attention.
PYRO500 June 14th, 2002, 04:56 AM

I herd someone say on an imformational show that the us military didn't condone thir use beacuse they were cruel for example, he said someone shot in the cest wit them
might have to have them taken outta his feet
tempest June 15th, 2002, 12:13 PM

Well ... the US never signed the 1899 humane war act which bans numerous things used for war things that come to mind are bullets that tumble , shatter or fragment on
impact and white phosphorus grenades.
Now interestingly NATO 7.62MM was recently proven to shatter and tumble on impact so I don't really suppose its very meaningful about how humane war is.
Oh and hell go buy yourself a Gurza vector its a russian made 9mm handgun with a solid core of some kind that can go thru 15 layers of kevlar and 2.5mm titanium plate at
100metres , fletteches are kind of defunct by that.Then again you could always make punji fletchettes though having your weapon smell like that would be kind of unpleasant
unless it was sealed in some sort of hollow point.
[ June 15, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: tempest ]
tempest June 15th, 2002, 12:19 PM

<a href="http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg25-e.htm" target="_blank">http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg25-e.htm</a>
oops my mistake thats Gyurza and 30 layers of kevlar and 2.8mm titanium according to the link above anyway
Harry June 21st, 2002, 01:49 PM

RE: discarding sabots on a flechette
Use adhesive to attach a piece of cloth to the base of the sabot halves. For demo purposes, cut a circle of duct tape to fit the sabot base to see what I mean.
Jack Ruby June 22nd, 2002, 05:03 PM

A Bee Hive Round...
That is an Howitzer round that explodes over the ground spraying Steel Darts(Flechettes) on to soft targets.
Some on correct me if I am wrong... Happens from time to time.

(Usually just my spelling)
Nico July 9th, 2002, 02:20 AM

How about that spike grenade from the movie Eraser? Yikes!
Spudkilla July 11th, 2002, 11:54 PM

I heard that the US and NATO banned flechette use in war because they were too cruel. The flechettes in that time (I dunno if they still are) were made from a metal that
wasn't very strong. They tended to get bent in flight, and if they hit somebody (say in their chest) it would end up in their ass or head.
cutefix July 12th, 2002, 03:50 AM

But these fletchettes which were dispersed via an artillery was effectively used in Vietnam.IIRC it was called beehive rounds because it creates a buzzing sound once fired.
It was an excellent weapon for close in defense against hordes of marauding enemies.These weapon created so much fear among the Vietcong and the NVA...
nbk2000 July 12th, 2002, 11:05 AM

Using flechettes in a pipe "claymore" would do some damage. But flechettes have nearly nil wounding potential unless it hits the brain, spine, or heart. Unless you perforate
someone with dozens at a time.
You need a barreled weapon to use them. Explosive deployment (like a nail bomb) won't work because they'll bend and tumble erratically in flight.
If they were dropped en mass from a height over a crowd, then you'd have some serious injuries. During WWI, the french would drop them over german troops, and it was
known for the darts to pass completely through a mans body, entering through his helmet and exiting out his foot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
There are sabots for loading in the 37mm launcher that will project 120 flechettes in one blast. See the archive for details.
Charlie Workman July 12th, 2002, 12:18 PM

A bored out airgun could fire modified flechettes with advantage. I tried to get an old shot out barrel for my Webley, but the factory would only sell me a new one. I'm going to
try and make one for my Crossman. The darts should be carefully graded according to weight for uniformity, then trimmed on the fins for the same reason. They would only be
effective with a nasty payload. More work needs to be done. The ones dropped in WW1 were about the size of lawn darts. They needed no embellishment.
Ron McDonald August 8th, 2002, 05:35 AM

An interesting solution to your problem is to get a roll of steel piano wire. Cut a bunch of the little bastards to about 1.5 cm. Then take each individual wire, and dip it into white
glue. Let them dry, and you should get a bunch of wire things with little heads on them. That tiny bit of glue creates a weight differnce and keeps the wires straight on target.
You do not need the fins, and these do work. I have not tried these on kevlar, but they will shred through at least 22 layers of balistic nylon. The important part is that you
load the with the big part towards the target. I generally use this type of round in a 12 gauge, but there is no reason why it can't be adapted.
On another note, I saw a post about that stupid spike launcer thing from Eraser. It is very buildable, and will work, but why? Greanades are cheap and easy. Ok, if you take a
piece of old hydraulic pipe, and weld caps on each end securely all you have to do is drill some holes. Then fill it with LOW EXPLOSIVE, that is crucial. Take your sipkes and put
them in until they barely stick out. GLue them in with a little super glue so the don't move around. This device would be for show only as it is a waste of time for a real
weapon.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > special 12 gauge bullets - Archive
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megalomania May 24th, 2003, 03:00 PM

phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-21-2001 09:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
s o m e of these i can figure out but doe s anyone know how to im provise a n y o f t h e 1 2 g a u g e b u l l e t s f o u n d o n t h i s p a g e h t t p : / /
www.funam m o.com/APA_2.htm l
thanks
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
posted 04-21-2001 01:25 PM
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S o m e o n e o n t h e l a s t f o r u m s a i d t h a t t h e d r a g o n f l a m ethrower shells can be im p r o v i s e d b y m i x i n g m a g n e s i u m p o w d e r a n d
naptha. I don't know how true that is, though.
EP
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 108
From : U SA
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-27-2001 01:09 AM
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Thats quite a selectio n of special am m o ! S o m e of it is really useless though...The easiest to improvise would probably be th e
b e a n b a g o n e s . Y o u c o u d j u s t t a k e t h e s h o t a n d w a d o u t o f a n o r m a l s h e l l a n d p u t it your own beanbag type thing o r just a
hard piece of rubber or plastic that fits well for a non lethal slug.

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phyrelord
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Posts: 135
From :
posted 04-25-2001 09:44 PM
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I was going to drill out a slug and then m elt the shavings and cover up the hole, but leave it hollow in the center. My question
is will this m e s s t h e b ullet up in flight, what adjustments should i m ake in the load, and whether or not i can safely add
e x p l o s i v e s t o t h e s h e ll. Okay on m aking a sabot with a twelve gauge slug. I want to drill out a hole big enough for a steel rod
and then seal it slightly with wax, would this be sufficien t in allowing the slug to fall away and the steel bar to continue it's
course? Any suggestions are appreciated
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
posted 04-26-2001 02:47 PM
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That should work. I don't think the explosive or the rod will screw up the balistics unless you have m achined it craply.
How do you intend to keep the sabot stable in flight ?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 04-26-2001 05:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is the sabot supposed to be fixed or discrading? The weight of the slug would give the steel rod great energy retention at long
ranges. It would also badly lim it the velocity of the steel rod to though.
could you wrap wadding around steel rod to stabilze it in the barrel (with regular wadding behind)? That way the rod would get
full energy from load, exit at a very high velocity and th e wadding sabot would discard when it left the m uzzle giving better
areodynamics.
Does your shotgun have a rifled barrel? If it does then hom emade sabots of any kind might not work very well. U n l e s s t h e
projectile is centred *exactly* in the centre of the barrel, when the round spins through the air it will corkscrew due to the
uneven weight distribution. Although experim e n t a l l o a d s a r e b e s t s u i t e d t o a s m o o t h b o r e p i p e s h o tgun anyway!
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
posted 04-26-2001 05:12 PM
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i was plannin g on having it be a discarding sabot. I can probabely com e up with a lighter material, would co rk work? Just an
idea thanks guys for the help. Another thing is, will the explosive go off in the barrel from the heat of the slug or from the
sudden jarring. I wanted to make something like a HESH (high explosive squash head) but i don't want to fuck up my barrel or
m e in doing so.
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
posted 04-27-2001 03:44 PM
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Try this, it looks interesting :
http://www.corbins.com /slugs.htm

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Mystery
New Mem ber
Posts: 24
From : O Z
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
posted 04-06-2001 10:28 AM
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I have been trying to find out how to copper coat lead b ullets, copper sulfate will coat ordinary steel but it won't coat lead.
C o u l d s o m e o n e p l e a se fill m e in on how they do it.
HMT D Factory
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Posts: 225
From :
posted 04-06-2001 12:52 PM
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Electroplate the lead...
Use copper sulphate as electrolyte.
A copper plate as the cathode, with lead bullets sitting top.
Another copper plate as the anode.
Hook it up with a battery.
W hy would you want to plate lead bullets?

Electroplated copper jacket has virtually little or no effect on the bullet, pretty m uch like "copper jacketed" .22LRs'.
jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 111
From : u k
posted 04-06-2001 01:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you would use copper pipeing in a die its called swaging .
www.corbins.com/topics.htm
Mystery
New Mem ber
Posts: 24
From : O Z
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
posted 04-07-2001 08:49 AM
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Thanks for that "Factory".
And you asked why I would want to pla te lead bullets, well, the perpose of plating bullets is to elim inate the need for
lubrication, if you fire an unlubricate bullet you coat your bore with lead (Very dangerous, By copper coating bullets you get
m ore fps.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > O T C T u n g sten bullets
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nbk2000 June 17th, 2003, 11:13 PM

I was going through my Bass Pro catalog when I saw these.
http://nbk20 00.freeyellow.com /W_W eights.jpg
T h e s e a r e u s e d a s l e a d w e i g h t r e p l a c e m ents in worm lures. They're com p o s e d o f 9 5 % t u n gsten/5% nickel, and are harder
than steel, while being alm ost twice as dense. :)
Prices for the size suitable for 5.56 and 7.62m m rounds are quite affordable at between $ 0 . 7 5 a n d $ 1 e a c h r o u n d . 1 - 8 0 0 - 2 2 7 -
7 7 7 6 ( 1 - 8 0 0 - B A S S - P R O ) , p a g e 2 2 2 o f t h e i r m a ster cata log,
Since this are intended as fishing lure weights, I don't im agine anyone having any troubles getting them th rough cu stom s in to
countries tha t are anti-gun. ;)
Alas, since they ARE fishing weights, they're not designed for use in firearm s, requiring som e m odification prior to use. You'll
likely have to resize them by m achinging, prior to fitting them into a copper jacket, since they are too hard to engage rifling
as-is.
Give n the inherent difficulties in otherewise obtaining decent AP bullets, without even being in an a nti-gun country, alternate
sources of pork-penetrating bullets would be a good thing to have. Yes, they'd be expensive, but that's what real gun control is
all a bout...hitting what you aim at. ;)
I've also included the normal lead weights since they're so cheap and ready for use as bullets in improvised firearm s. They're
only about $5/100, and have hollowed bases, just like Miniere bullets! :)
This also brings to mind the p roblem of forging/m a c h i n i n g t u n g s t e n s h a p e s . T u n s t e n h a s a m e l t i n g p o i n t o f 3 4 1 0 & d e g C ! : e e k :

So much for casting it...:( This kind of tem ps require arc or induction furnaces. Though perhaps it becomes m alleab le at a
m uch m o r e m a n a g a b le tem p e r a t u r e ? I b e l i e v e I s a w m e n t i o n e d i n a p a t e n t a b o u t how it becomes ductile if heated above
150&degC.
Tuatara June 18th, 2003, 12:07 AM

Forg ing is probably the best shaping technique. Many m e t a l s b e c o m e readily forg eable well below their m elt points. Steel is a
classic one - typical forging tem ps for steel around 600 to 900 C . I'd love to see som eone try to m elt W without an inert
atmosphere.
nbk2000 June 18th, 2003, 04:41 AM

Perhaps the nickel is being used as a binder? Its m.p. is 1/3rd that of the tungsten.
Perhaps a person could use electrolysis to seperate the two, reducing the tungsten to a powder.
If th e lures could be forged, though, then that'd be prefered. I'n thinking of how they could be form ed into quadran gle shot.
That'd be the shit right there. :) Harde r than steel, twice as dense as lead, and shaped to shred piggy vests after going
through the doors/windows of their cars.
I've never heard of any pyrophoric reactions with tungsten. Sure you're not thinking of titanium?
zaibatsu June 18th, 2003, 12:34 PM

I know this thread isn't originall about obtaining tungsten powde r, but, if you wanted som e, you could buy it from here (http://
www.corbins.com/chemical.htm ) along with jackets etc.
Mr Cool June 18th, 2003, 02:39 PM

I believe that they would be m ade of tungsten powder, sintered with nickel, in order to cut m anufacturing costs. I ca n ' t s e e a n y
other reason for 5% nickel.
Electrolysis eats tungsten under certain conditions, but apart from that and H2O2 it is a very unreactive metal towards com m o n
acids etc. So if you wanted tungsten powder from those, chem ically eating away the nickel might be the way to go, with HCl for
e x a m ple.
nbk2000 June 18th, 2003, 05:33 PM

Ah, but couldn't the n ickel be used to bind the tungsten powder into the new shape, after it'd been s e p e r a t e d ?
Tuatara June 18th, 2003, 07:11 PM

Trying to melt W i n a i r - a n d I d o m e a n t u n g s t e n - e v e r b r o k e n o p e n a r u n n i n g l i g h t b u l b ? T u n g s t e n f i l a m e n t v a n i s h e s i n a
puff of white dust.
Just tried forging the stuff - it works. I heated a thoriated tungsten electrode to red-orange heat, using a kerosene blow-torch
(damn, thats such a great toy :D ). Thum ping it with a ballpeen hamm er successfully deform ed the metal. Kept playing until
the rod broke where I was holding it with vise-g rips.
nbk2000 June 19th, 2003, 12:02 AM

Great...now know of any way to turn it into 2mm s p h e r i c a l s h o t f o r u s e a s g r e n a d e f r a g m e n t s ? : )
Tuatara June 19th, 2003, 01:14 AM

D o e s i t h a v e t o b e s p herical? The stuff shatters into shards at room tem p when belted with a ham m er. Yes, I tried that too!
nbk2000 June 19th, 2003, 02:41 AM

A welding rod is a whole different item than the se fishing weights. Did you try wha cking the rod before you heated it? The
h e a t i n g m a y h a v e e m brittled it.
The frags have to be spherical if it's going to retain velocity over any decent dista nce. Does W am a l g a m ate with me rcury? I've
a patent for m a k i n g f r a g m enting AP bullets that uses am a l g a m ations with zinc and som e other m etals. I'd im agine with W
added in, it'd be m uch m ore effective and it could be cast into the required shapes.
Natural fragm entation is easy, but very inefficient, which is why modern m unitions use pre-form e d f r a g m e n t s . T h o u g h p e r h a p s
for small weapons like shotgun grenades...
Mr Cool June 19th, 2003, 09:03 AM

I d o n ' t t h i n k t u n g s t e n d o e s a m a l g a m ate. I would try it but I ate up all m y welding electrodes to get the ThO2 out.
" T h e h e a t i n g m ay have embrittled it"
The welding rods are brittle even before heating, and they snap easily. I think pu re tungsten is quite brittle too, but I bet the
ThO2 doesn't help. But as you said, 2% ThO2 and 5% Ni will cause the tungsten to have very different properties in each case.

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megalomania June 18th, 2003, 03:52 PM

Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
posted 06-08-2001 02:45 AM
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I was told by a relative that Russian mafia uses an unusual shotgun load it contains of nail heads with a bit of the stem still attached to form a T-shaped shot which because of
its unusual shape cosies more tissue damage. My question is has anyone herd/seen how good or not so good this load is?
------------------
If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
posted 06-08-2001 04:20 AM
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you might mean fletchetes (sp)
Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
posted 06-08-2001 09:58 AM
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No, a shorter stem (0.5-1mm) and they spin end over end as they pass through flash. That is what cosies the damage.
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Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
posted 06-08-2001 01:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is your question will it work? Yes, if its not heavier then the basic load of what the primary charge was meant to shoot out, those wouldn't have a whole lot of range though,
since they aren't aerodynamic they will loose their energy quickly by 'soaking up' all the wind resistance. Accuracyies probably a bitch as well. Nothing wrong with OO buckshot.
Viper4403
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Florida, USA
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-08-2001 02:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've heard of this too.
It's an old mafia method, and it's not restricted to russian mafia. I've heard a similar story about bits of shot welded to a short string of piano wire for a kind of bolas type of
thing.
Yes, the method you describe is quite effective.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
posted 06-08-2001 04:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd only try thest loads with a cheap clean smooth bore shotgun, not some expensive pump that has features to enhance the pattern of the shot.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-09-2001 04:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aren't flachettes (I think that's the sp, but I'm not sure) like little darts? I always thought they were dropped by planes onto groups of soldiers, but I'm no expert.
Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
posted 06-10-2001 01:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well flachettes are little darts but thay are fired from a shotgun.
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Heavy Recoil
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: nope, try again
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-10-2001 11:47 AM
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They can be both, the ones that were dropped from planes in world war I were alot longer 10 to 20 cm. while those used in shotguns are an inch to almost 3 inchs (at a recent
gunshow I saw a ammomaker who had them packed in a 3 1/2 magnum 12 gauge) there are flechet canisters used in vetnam, but I dont have any info on them.
------------------
Know the enemy, know yourself;your victory will never be endangered. SUN TZU
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
posted 06-10-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
flachettes are shrapanel in general, used in Vietnam is LAW rocket launchers, rpgs, missiles (I think sometimes).
That bola-esque cartridge is commercially made, http://www.firequest.com/
USUAL SUSPECT July 30th, 2007, 03:38 PM

"Flechettes are shrapnel in general, used in Vietnam in LAW rocket launchers, missiles"
Well flechettes were not ever used in a LAWS rocket LAW is an acronym for Light Anti-tank Weapon and with the velocity achieved by a LAW rocket shooting a tank with steel
darts would be senseless. (before I get flamed I will state that I am aware of the current use of single depleted uranium sabots to defeat armor plate) also my father witnessed
the use of "beehive" rounds in Vietnam on human wave attacks he stated that the day after an attack you could find VC stapled to trees by the 105s' being fired into the mass
attacks. Also his Sgt carried an Remington 870 loaded with flechettes and 00 buck and he stated that it blew chunks out wherever it hit. (his being a medic he treated some
survivors).
Now a question, after USTSE I found only 2 threads with the word flechete in them, specifically I was hoping to find a thread about the use of flechettes on kevlar vests, and
options on loading flechettes in a 12ga round.
You will find interesting info on loading and supplies for same here:
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__20/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html
Well I am finished with this reply and hope I don't fall in the "banned for life" category. Also I welcome all questions about firearms and ballistics as they are indeed my
passion. FYI I have watched this forum as an unregistered guest since 2003 good info good job.
nbk2000 July 31st, 2007, 03:52 AM

Using the proper word for a search is vital to success. Notice the correct spelling in your post above.
A much more reliable supplier of flechette ammunition than Hi-Vel (the TOTSE of ammo sellers :p):
http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/005.html
And some flechette-related humor to amuse you during your ban:

http://home.online.no/~dagoj/flechette.gif
Rbick July 31st, 2007, 11:22 AM

While this thread was dug up by a newbie who is now banned because of it, it is still interesting non-the-less. It also sparked a memory of mine.
In the military I worked closely with our Anti-Tank team who was armed with the 84mm M3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifle. While it has been deemed inhumane to use flechette
rounds against personel, we figured terrorists who kill their own people don't qualify as humans :D. In a class, we actually were given an inert flechette round with the
projectiles still in it. We were able to look at them, and they were about 3 inches long with 3 pairs of prongs near the back of the projectile. I'm unsure of the count in one
round.
Used in combat, specifically in urban settings, this round ripped people apart. It was really brutal. Fired down a narrow ally, the shot pattern spread out enough to leave no
room to hide. "Effective" range was only a couple hundred meters. The rounds were called ADM, Area Defense Munitions. Normally, I think these rounds are not considered
acceptable by modern military standards.
Charles Owlen Picket July 31st, 2007, 11:37 AM

What I saw were what looked like finishing nails with little fins pressed out of one end; the point looked just like interior finish carpentry nails. They actually could have been
made with the same machinery the similarity was so close. Black phosphate coated, sharp with four angles to the point, four fins to the tail.
Loading them in a shotgun plastic wad would be a simple thing to do. Use of "Sporting Clays" (12ga) loading would be appropriate as they would weigh at less than an ounce.
Being steel and packed into the wad cover they would not seem to contact the bore. Spread would not be uniform obviously - However they may actually fly straight for about
30M if the propellant was at a low level (super light) & wax utilized to both maintain projectile integrity and seal the shell. There would seem to be no need to over power
them whatsoever as the construction would provide a unique ballistic element.
TreverSlyFox August 1st, 2007, 11:13 AM

In Viet Nam an Anti-Tank vehicle, the M50A1 "Ontos" was put to great effect. The Ontos was a wedge shaped, tracked vehicle with a turrent that could turn 40 degrees side to
side. It's effectiveness came from 3- 106mm recoilless rifles mounted on each side of the turrent.
Though designed in the 1950's as an anti-tank vehicle it became a top VC killer in Viet Nam with the introduction of a 106mm "Beehive" round loaded with flechettes. It was
nothing for the Ontos to fire all 6 recoilless rifles at the same time and clear jungle out knee high for a 1/4 mile deep and then scoot back to a secure position to reload. It
became the Marines armored shotgun and earned the nickname "the pig".
The NVA and VC hated to encounter an Ontos because it was so deadly at perimeter defense and convoy escort duty. At only 9 tons on 20" tracks it could take to the soft soils
surrounding the rice paddies. Only 176 were deployed with the Marines in Viet Nam and they were decommissioned in 1970.
Charles Owlen Picket August 1st, 2007, 11:49 AM

Someone knows their history or they are older than most! The Ontos was a remarkable concept & to the best of my knowledge you are absolutely correct!
It's a painful fact that we really could have won that conflict. When all is said and done the money and material we expended in that theater was incredible. But even a great
boxer would lose if they went into the ring with handcuffs on.
Much was made of the use of the flechette & the shotgun and it's legality in war. However, the same (utilitarian value) could be said for our use of the Ithica Duckbill; as it was
reputed to be one of the best close encounter small arms in jungle weapons.
One thing that is often missed is that from a ballistic perspective, the design of the flechette & is it's conformity to choke design (or lack there of) is amazing. Stabilization was
generally acceptable if the propellant was balanced to the weight of the projectile. The greater the diameter of the bore the (amongst other factors) the more successful the
flight of a well made flechette projectile.
TreverSlyFox August 2nd, 2007, 08:24 AM

Hehehehe, a little bit of both Charles.
I'm a bit of a Military History buff and I was there in 1967 and got to see the Ontos in action. Turned 59 this last May so ya I'm a bit older than most here.
reamio August 2nd, 2007, 09:25 AM

However, the same (utilitarian value) could be said for our use of the Ithica Duckbill; as it was reputed to be one of the best close encounter small arms in jungle weapons.
Charles: I think you meant Ithaca as in:

Ithaca Guns, USA LLC is a manufacturer of high-quality shotguns and rifles, founded in Ithaca, New York in 1880.
Are these wonderful accessories (duckbills) available to the public?
I have a Browning 12 gauge 5-shot semi-auto shotgun that would be very happy to accept a spreader type enhancement.:D
Charles Owlen Picket August 2nd, 2007, 11:15 AM

Well, frankly I was unaware that it was introduced on anything else than the Ithaca trench shotgun (let me know if it was; I am curious about that "odd duck").
The "spreader concept" as in the duck bill was deemed to be a very effective addition. I have seen only on the the flesh (or in the steel). When I first examined it I thought it
would burst the barrel (it was not THAT radical, mind you but it looked pretty wild).
There were rumors that such a device would be available on a variety of shotguns but I have yet to see one on anything but that example.
Please note that in '67 I was playing with Super Balls, Etch-a-Sketch, slot cars, and staring at the thighs of the girls in Social Studies......
festergrump August 5th, 2007, 06:38 AM

Back to flechettes, I often browse Army/Navy surplus sites looking for good deals and came across this just this morning:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/flachette2.jpg
For $2 per 50 count or $25 for 1 lb. bag (about 1000 each), you can't go wrong for experimental purposes. Beats making your own individually, anyway. Never seen them
offered anywhere before, but here they are: http://www.imsplus.com/ims35.html
Guaranteed to break the ice at "no knock" parties... Have fun. ;)
There rest of the page seems pretty well dedicated to us Forumites, too! :D
Jacks Complete August 5th, 2007, 07:35 PM

Remember kids, steel darts are not compressible in the bore of a shotgun, and using a duckbill choke with them would likely be the last thing that gun was ever used for!!
If you do go for loading your own, make sure you either have a well-overbored shotgun, so that the compression from the forcing cone to the barrel proper is almost none, or
you leave a little slack in there for the darts to be able to fit all at once thorough that tighter hole. Likewise, think about your choke pattern - if it narrows the barrel further,
then trouble is ahead.
The safest way is to take 80% of the darts that will fit in the shot cup of the plastic wad, and pop them in with a small amount of small shot (8+) around them to hold them
tight. I've had no problems with homemade rounds done like this, with a regular modern barrel and open chokes. I also find the same to work for throwing slugs made at
home.
Note that I haven't actually done this, since it would be illegal in the UK, as the largest legal dimension of a projectile in a shotgun cartridge is .36", and there must be at least
6 shot in a round. I have only dreamed of making a mould from a ceramic then melting lead directly into it. Likewise, I have only dreamed of using steel plastic coated wire
coathanger cut to length as described above. Note this was an open ended case, since about 1" long seemed to be about right.
45acp August 16th, 2007, 03:25 AM

Finally, a post I can contribute to without sounding like a complete newbie idiot!
I own a registered 40mm and load a lot of my own ammo. I have loaded dozens of rounds using the exact flechettes posted above. (I picked up 40 lbs of them in a deal
awhile back).
I've tried several differnt types of buffer or filler in the shotcups, actually powdered soap or oatmeal seem to work the best for me. (Better than lead or steel shot, anyway).
The flechettes are fairly light so they lose their velocity relatively quickly compared to buckshot.
They pattern OK but the limit to effective anti-personnel range is closer to 25 meters. I've shot them at different levels of kevlar body armor and they reliably penetrate a IIA
vest at 20 meters.
The only problem is in their design. by design, flechettes are thin darts. they actually do VERY little damage to tissue. Imagine a high speed needle punching through a piece of
meat. If the velocity is increased dramatically, they may bend and cause more tissue damage, but in my experience in 40mm loadings that the recoil becomes prohibitive when
you reach those velocities.
I'm hoping not to get banned for my first post, I've learned alot and been reading on this site for along time. Just trying to add my small bit of knowledge to the forum.
If anyone has any 37/40mm questions, I'll do my best to answer them.
+++++++++=
One thing you can do in the future is add paragraph breaks to make your posts more readable, as I did for this one. NBK
Charles Owlen Picket August 16th, 2007, 12:35 PM

The safest way is to take 80% of the darts that will fit in the shot cup of the plastic wad, and pop them in with a small amount of small shot (8+) around them to hold them
tight. I've had no problems with homemade rounds done like this, with a regular modern barrel and open chokes. I also find the same to work for throwing slugs made at
home.
Tried this exact thing and worked like a charm. The type and method of buffering makes a difference. One technique was to use standard buffer and drop to 80%....seems
fine.
Tried an experiment and used wrapped tissue; was very time consuming as it's not "roll the damn things up and stuff them in the shell" type buffering but to weave the tissue
around & through - they appeared to fly much flatter for longer range (20M).
Noted that when "sporting clays" level of powder/associated load were used rather than field or greater strength...better flight. Paper-card wadding was used to create more
room at the top for the crimp; rather than plastic cup....even better terminal performance. Why? I have no idea as it would appear that the plastic wadding (AA) would have a
more consistent "push".......(?)

I like the scimitar design myself....The Scimitar worked on the same principle as the flechette, but instead of being a tiny arrow, it was wide and flat (looked kind of like a
disposable razor blade with fins) The standard 20ga shell would hold 16 of these.
Pics are on my other machine,if need be they can be dug up.

My tests with a single scimitar dart loaded in .45acp show they were very effective on aramid,but thats a no brainer.
nbk2000 September 22nd, 2007, 12:33 AM

Behold the wonders of Google!
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tech/scmitr.gif
Other nifty rounds can be found here:

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tech/shotgun.html
ann September 22nd, 2007, 07:55 PM

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tech/scmitr.gif
That is a AAI loading it shows the scmitr dart design well.
They were the shit for close range work but had all the same long range problems of the standard design flechettes.
They really worked on tissue and bone was no barrier. I know a rat that iced a few people with them in the early 1970s.
The 45acp version were a cool design but the cost was to high and the tunnel rats were just issued standard ball.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > .50 caliber shells? - Archive File
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phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
posted March 05, 2001 02:39 PM
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d o e s a n y o n e know the dim ensions of a .50 caliber round, casing and all. Also does anyone know anything about wh at grade
stee l t h e b r e e c h a n d r e c e i v e r h a s t o b e m a d e o f . I h a v e s o m e connections at a m achine shop all i have to do is buy the steel
for the receiver. cool huh? I also have to buy a barrel anyone know where i could pick one up?all help is appreciated, thanx
HMT D Factory
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 220
From :
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4140 Steel.
"Pick up" a b arrel? Well be preapred to lose m oney because it will norma lly cost you 1000$
to 2000$
You can find .50 BMG barrels on Shotgun News

or at www.m aadigriffin.com (I think Maadi Griffin has lost all their .50 kits in a raid
,the owner of the com pany was arreste d too.)
Are you going to m ake brass by turning brass stock? Not the best idea because you can order .50 shell from reloading
suppliers.
Most cartridge book and reloading m a n u a l o n l y

supply major dimentions of a cartridge f o r l e n g t h c h e c k a n d b u l g e c h e c k s o T h o s e w o n ' t h e l p y o u m a k e a c a s e e v e n i f y o u
have them .
BaDSeeD
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : buffalo, ny
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No he wasn't going to m ake the brass. He wanted to know the dimentions of the shells. I wish i still had som e e m p t i e s
around...
Incidentally, you don't have to use 4140 for the reciever. I've se e n p e o p l e m a k e t h e m out of 416 stainless, chrom e m olly, and
vicon 44. Out of those choices though... 4140 is probably the cheapest. But its a pain in the ass to m achine. Its rea l easy to
work harden it while your making it. If you have a m ach inist m ake the re ciever for you, make sure he runs full coolant on it
while machining it, check it for any irregularities (warpage), and heat cracks. Also radius the internal corners to keep som e
strength in them . The last thing you want is for it to fail. It'd be like a ha nd grenade going off in front of your face.
W here did you get the blueprints for the reciever? And what m o d e l / m a k e is it for?
I have blueprints for a Barret M95, I m ade prints for everything EXCEPT the barrel. Seeing as i had n o m e a n s o f m a k i n g t h e
barrel, but everything else i could.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
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I m a d e u p t h e i d e a f o r t h e r e c e i v e r a n d s t u f f a n d a s k e d a f r i e n d ( g u n s m ith) if it looked okay but he had never dealt with su ch
a h u g e g u n s o I d o n ' t k n o w . T h e o n l y t h i n g i n e e d t o k n o w a b o u t the shell is the diameter of the casing, so i know how big to
m a k e m y bolt. Would you be able to post those plans by any ch ance? They m i g h t b e u s e f u l . t h a n x
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 293
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If you want to know the dim entions of any (well, most) bullets used today including the .50 BMG then the p lace to g o is :
http://www.calweb.com/~haas/amm o g u i d e /
It'll tell you nearly all you need to know if you can get it working...there's even a downloadable version too !
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
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t h a n k s m an that site rocks, ju st what i needed
BaDSeeD
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : buffalo, ny
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All the blueprints are hand drawn. And I don't have a scanner. It would take m e quite a while to redraw them with autocad.
Especially since I havn't figure d autoca d out yet.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Improvised Ammo ? I must be mad. - Archive File
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Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
posted March 09, 2001 09:34 AM
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Remember my idea about the (wildcat ?) homemade shotshell ? Well how about a homemade straight-wall cased bullet ? Surely one can be made from a short section of thin
walled aluminium tube blocked off at one end with a very short section of aluminum round stock epoxied into place. Of course, this would be safer in a home-made bolt action
weapon or some sort. I don't know if anyone here has tried anything like this, but what do you think about the idea of 'necked' cartridges ? Can they be improvised practically
?
I have plenty of ideas already but I want to hear some of your opinions on this subject first.
(I am presently writing a file on stuff like this so watch this space.)
Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
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They are fairly practical, (easiest way is to alter an existing round) but they have to be machined. Having a round with a weld at the shoulder wouldn't work, and if you glue
the shoulder/ neck it in place you run the risk ok having it break off in the chamber. For the sake of simplicity, stick with straight walled rounds. Easier to make, easier to make
a chamber that will work with them.
If you have some time to kill and equiptment available then this is the project for you.
[This message has been edited by Igenx (edited March 09, 2001).]
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
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I don't quite understand, if you need to make a new "necked" cartridge, why not go with current design?
Aluminum cases only withstand up to 60000psi
compare to brass case 75000psi.
During war time, hunters who have a lathe turn their shell with solid brass.
first, outside dimension is made.
then inside dimension is turned out with a boring machine.
third, neck trimmed to desired thickness and

flash hole drilled.
last, flash hole and case mouth chamfered.
The turned case can last almost forever but can only use smaller charges because of the thicker wall.
I am not an active wildcatter but I think straight wall cases can be necked down, then fireform into shape. Or progressive swaging
can be used, but will require special order dies.
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was thinking more along the lines of a solid bar that could be drilled in one end with a large diameter drill and in the other end with a smaller diameter drill. The outside of the
bar could then be turned down to a 'neck'. How do you post pictures on here ? It would be better if I could show you a picture...
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
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I think I got what you mean, Bitter.
How do you want to seal the base of the cartridge? There are many failed experiment
of two-piece cartridge shell design or failed
screw-on shell designs(they leak and ruined the action)
It might not withstand, say normal working pressure of smokeless powder firearm.
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HMTD, I was thinking only in terms of a ammuniton for bolt-action guns, otherwise the minor problem of sealing the base of the cartridge effectively would be a serious
problem. Especially if the ammo was used on an auto or semi auto weapon (or any other gun with an unlocked bolt).
Maybe epoxy would do, or perhaps threading.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 397
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would turning the outside of the case be neccesary ? Then making the camber would be easier. Just an Idea
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point. Necked cartridges are only necked to ease ejection in auto guns aren't they ? A bolt action wouldn't need it. Thanks all of you.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
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Bitter, before you decide to do the cartridge
, I got something to tell : bolt guns seals the chamber as much as a gas operated semi-auto do (They don't seal, if the case fails then it is ruined). If the case body isn't well
sealed, the result is still leaking and destroying the action. Personally I won't epoxy it.
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 159
From: Australia
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Although this is off the topic has anyone ever thought of putting a small amount of AP in a .22 shell,then putting the bullet head back on and having an extremely high velocity
bullet.Of course this would be extremely dangerous as the AP could rip apart the barrel and cause serious damage but if the bullet was loaded into a stronger type of barrel/
rifle,eg(.22 Magnum,.222,etc.)which could hold the shell in place,still be fired and withstand the blast? the results would be very intersting.Just a thought.
Demolition
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited March 12, 2001).]
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
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No way, the breech would be destroyed, and the barell would split/fragment.
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
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I'd steer clear of that if I were you. This was in fact a means occasionally employed by some losers in Vietnam to get rid of a hated officer or personal enemy ("fragging" was
another popular method). A rifle cartridge would be packed with HE or a stub of Det Cord and planted in the victim's ammo supply. When fired, the round would shear the
breach lock or fracture the receiver lugs - usually with fatal results since the bolt would be blown rearward at explosive velocity. If the weapon was being fired from the
shoulder it would pretty much tear most of the victim's head off. This didn't happen that often, but no real statistics are available - combat covered a multitude of crimes.
SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
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cOdeblue, I was in Vietnam and privy to much more intelligence output than the average soldier. I don't recall reading or hearing of such an incident being used on American
officers. There was, however, a certain classified operation carried out against the communist which "seeded" communist 7.62 X 39mm ammunition. The technology was
similiar to, but more refined, the method you described. The effects were extremely rewarding. Some of that ammunition was recovered by GI's, contrary to regulations. The
results could be called, "Unfortunate". I am unsure as to whether the project still carries a classification or not. Details of such projects carried a classification of "TOP SECRET"
for 30 years which was downgraded to "SECRET" for the next 10...and so on. In ten years, I'll tell you the codename.
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
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I received this information from a trusted source (my Staff Sergeant cousin) during a three-month assignment in Vietnam as a civilian "observer". I was one of the lucky ones -
exempted from military service thanks to my aerospace/defense contractor employer. I heard (as well as saw) a lot during my three months there, but I never saw my cousin
again.
I don't question that activity of this sort went unreported - the effects would no doubt have been even more demoralizing for the troops than the war itself and the no-win
political intrigues that prevented our "side" from ever doing more than holding its own (if that). "Fragging" too went largely unreported (officially), yet its incidence is
undisputed by most who saw frontline action.
The operation you describe isn't surprising - I myself have been involved in a few officially sanctioned programs that required me to check "moral" concerns at the door.
However, your account of "accidents" involving spiked rounds "recovered against regulations" by our soldiers merely confirms that such incidents did indeed occur. If the
military and political brass chose to characterize these as "accidents" (and perhaps some were), so be it. My only purpose was to illustrate how dangerous HE-loaded rounds
are.
SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From: australia
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I heard the same type of thing was done by the vietnamese (north) who put a detonator and small amouts of c-4 into zippo lighters. they were then given to soldiers, or 'left'
lying around
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
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thats a short detonator!
------------------
5 out of 4 people have a problem with math.
SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
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The VC also "short-fused US grenades and left them to be "found" and used. I blew a French grenade that had been modified and left for the dimwitted to play with. The most
disgusting was the use of children strapped with sapper charges and sent to approach servicemen.
Damn! Sorry, this is all way off topic.
Scientist October 29th, 2003, 07:44 PM

More difficult would be a completely homemade round.
It could be quite dangerous due to the sensivity of the primer, but there's still a different concept
which wasn't commercialy adapted at large.
It's a round without a case. As far as I know it was developed by a German company.
Anyway can anyone comment on the danger of a homemade round?
CypherNinja October 29th, 2003, 11:29 PM

Caseless ammo was developed by Heckler and Koch for the G11. Supposedly it was going to be adopted by the German Army, but the idea was shelved after the
reorganization. The reason they went caseless was not only so the ammo was much lighter, but it also had something to do with the crazy high firing rate that the G11 used in
burst mode, I think.
Many people have made homemade rounds before, but you seriously have to know what your doing. Here's a link to an article about a guy in Canada that built his own 4-
bore.
http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/firearms/4bore_part01_03.htm
I've occasionally read about experimental guns that utilized sky high chamber pressures (like 90-120kpsi!!!!) to pack alot of grunt into a relatively shorter barrel. Did these
weapons possibly use steel casings? HMTD Factory quoted figures about (typical?) strengths of Al and Brass casings, but maybe they simply used thicker casing walls and
stronger breech/barrels. These were usually large AT type rifles usually, which explains the desire for more bang in a shorter barrel.
Finally, about propellants. AP or any HE is surely overkill, but it would be nifty if we could come up with a propellant that was more powerful than the norm. That way you
could increase the power if you wanted, but you could also make much smaller casings! It would be cool to be able to load a 5.56mm NATO round into something similar to a
.22LR casing and have the same amount of power....... albeit in a custom gun.
xyz October 30th, 2003, 04:55 AM

Using AP or HMTD as a propellant is plain suicidal, these are high explosives (all firearms use LOW explosives), a low explosive just produces a lot of pressure that can push the
bullet down the barrel. A high explosive produces a shockwave that will shatter the barrel or blow it to pieces.
Anyone wishing to make their own ammo should read "Homemade guns and homemade ammo", it is on the FTP.
Wild Catmage October 30th, 2003, 08:25 AM

In Vietnam, caseless rounds were used on the main gun on the M113 APCs (which I'm guessing was a .50cal Browning). Sadly, this ammunition frequently caught fire,
incinerating the vehicle and its crew. - http://www.vietnampix.com/mach2.htm
Gun cotton was used in the naval guns of WWI and WWII. There's a site listing other propellants used in naval guns - http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.htm
Lurking_Shadows November 15th, 2003, 02:17 AM

When I was younger and stupider I tried modifying my own rounds, I only used .22 LR hollow point bullets.
I started by boring out the hole to make it slightly deeper / wider and due to my lack of knowledge on explosives I emptied out other .22 shells then I picked out the mercury
fumilate or lead azide (not sure what it was at the time) then I packed it very firmly into the hole that I had made in the lead bullet and capped it with wax.
I smoothed over the wax with a heated nail (yea I know stupid me) to get rid of the excess wax and sealing in the explosive. (very well I might add)
I never had a problem with these rounds when I used to use them the problem arisen when I took off the .22 rounds head and replaced the powder (not sure what class) with
powder I had previously taken from a shot gun shell (also don't know what class) it blew up the action on my gun and I ended up picking a few brass filing from my skin.
Also I'm sorry if what I wrote is off topic in any way.
xyz November 15th, 2003, 11:49 PM

You probably put too much powder into the case, shotgun powder is fast burning but the powder from a .22LR should also be pretty fast burning so I think that the problem
was just that there was too much of it (or you didn't reseat the bullet properly and it jammed in the barrel).
There is a forum member (unsure of who) who has succesfully made exploding .22LR rounds by filling hollowpoints with AP and then sealing the top (I think they used wax
:eek:, epoxy resin would definitely be safer).
ossassin November 25th, 2003, 09:43 AM
I'd suggest buying bullets from a large sporting-goods store or a specialized reloading shop. You could order them, too. (For those novices out there, a bullet is NOT the same
as a cartridge.) :rolleyes: That would probably be your best option if you're looking for a cheap way to get large quantities of bullets with which to make your own
ammunition.
Also, you definately need to use jacketed bullets. If they're not jacketed, they'll sure screw up your barrel over time, unless you clean it VERY well and VERY frequently.
xyz November 27th, 2003, 04:08 AM

The jacketing depends on the bullet's velocity, if it is below about 1750fps then you don't need jacketing (how many jacketed .22LRs have you seen?, and I am not talking
about copper washed ones that look like they're jacketed).
NickSG November 27th, 2003, 03:06 PM

Stingers are JHP...
Anyway, unjacketed bullets dont do anything special to ruin your barrel. They just seem to burn with more residue than jacketed bullets. I shoot unjacketed .22LR bullets
through my wheelgun all the time, and they only need cleaning every 200 rounds or so, if even that often.
PHAID November 27th, 2003, 09:25 PM

To use lower velocity lead rounds like the .22cal will not harm anything but over time you get buildup of lead deposits in the rifleing which will adventualy cause poor accuraacy
and can help cause pitting as well.
IF used in high velocity rounds it builds up quite fast and is a royal pain to get cleaned out properly.
ossassin November 27th, 2003, 10:00 PM

That's what I meant, PHAID. Copper deposits are easier to deal with and don't do as much damage to the bore as lead deposits. And I don't know about any of you, but I use
jacketed .22 rounds; I suggest you do the same.

If you clean your gun properly and and clean it often there will not be any problems. Ive shot about 15,000 of wal marts bulk pack rounds through my M60 and I havent had a
single problem. If you shoot unjacketed bullets without cleaning after you shoot, the lead residue will harden and it will be nearly impossible to completely clean. Otherwise,
when its fresh its just as easy to clean than any other bullet.
ossassin November 28th, 2003, 01:44 AM

Yes, but in the field, who has time to thoroughly clean the weapon right after each use? That's not exactly a low-maintenence situation. When making your own ammo, which
seems to be what people want to do on this thread, you're either going to have to spend extra time jacketing the bullets or extra time cleaning the barrel. It's your choice.
Personally, I would recommend jacketing the bullets, as it would be better to spend the extra time before the conflict than during it.
grendel23 November 29th, 2003, 03:49 AM

If you are loading your own ammo, try to find or make hard cast bullets. I used to do a lot of target shooting and found that the hard cast bullets caused less fouling than the
soft swaged ones. Jacketed bullets are also fine, but are much more costly.
I shot a .357, mostly with .38 special ammo, hotter rounds may give different results.
arnold May 30th, 2007, 09:51 AM

I wonder what type of modified ammo is more effective again st human: poisoned or exploding?
1)if poisoned: what would be the most optimal poison to use (efficient and available)? Maybe powdered aconite root or phenol?
2) if explosive: primary explosive, kclo3 mixed with something or petn or ammo caps put into the bullets as shown in WRM?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > The Improvised Munitions Handbook, and a ftp question
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justsomeguy September 13th, 2003, 08:02 PM

The Improvised Munitions Handbook, also called "The CIA's Black Book of Dirty Tricks," etc. is undeniably one of the world's best weapons and explosives resources. It contains
methods to create many explosives, and build about 10 guns from scratch, as well as amunitons, armor, and more. Unlike the anarchist's cookbook, and so many other
explosive books this one doesnt contain dangeriously misleading or incorrect meterial. How do i know this? It was written, and field tested, by the US goverment. This book
was origionally used as a field manual given to army members in Veitnam, etc.
I just uploaded the complete text version to http://clansolis.tripod.com/imh--FULL.txt.
I was wondering if anyone had a scanned/pdf version of this file, as having the actual sketmatics would be nice.
This also brings up another good question. Is there an official website/ftp that we can use for posting/finding large collections of material for this forum? I've done searches, and
found a few minor ftps (most of which are down), but no refrence to an official one. It'd be really nice to have just one place where we can go and find downloadable versions
of importaint material.
justsomeguy September 13th, 2003, 08:07 PM

ofcourse i'd find the ftp right after saying it didnt exist.
For those of you that are confused like me check out

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1491&highlight=ftp
The other question about the pdf file still stands though, any help please?

Read the following from the rules about editing your posts:
2. You've posted something when you realize that you've got a link to the absolute authority on the subject, and must share it with everyone else, so that they can sing your
praises. Your new post is only one line, and your previous post is only 5 minutes old, but why bother editing it? BZZZZ! WRONG!
Can you tell me where you fucked up?
And newbies posting somewhere other than the water cooler risk execution for stupid mistakes, like yours. :)
And the black books are sadly inadequate, even with illustrations, since they were intended to be used by SOF soldiers who'd already had years of training and practice in
handling explosives, not 13 year olds with a pyro fetish.
justsomeguy September 14th, 2003, 01:55 AM

Oops, didnt see that rule, im sorry i violated it.
However, i would have to disagree with you on the point of the black books. As you say, they are inadaquate for "13 year olds with a pyro fetish." I dont know about you, but
i wouldnt want a 13 year old who was compadent enough to manafacture heavy explosives. That being said, a little maturity and experience does wonders to the book. The
idea was to be able to create weapons from virtually any supplys that could be found in a war zone. While they're not meant for thirdgraders, the books are written in complete
laymen's terms. There is no talk of advanced chemestry, no balancing of equations, or special flasks required. For the most part all you need to understand is ratios, a concept
taught in 4th grade. Also, milatary training for the common soilder differs a far cry from a masters in chemistry.
And newbies posting somewhere other than the water cooler risk execution for stupid mistakes, like yours.
Well, as admin that is your choice to make. If you think i'm being offencive then you have every right to ban me--it is your job to do so. However, creating an enviroment
where people can loose their freedom of speach for superflious transgressions is rather facist. It defeats the very core idea that this forum is trying (in my understanding) to
perpetuate--free conmunication. The idea is to keep the information freely flowing the the uneducated public, correct? I fail to see how kicking out people for petty reasons
furthers this goal. It would seem to deter it to me.
In the end it's your choice, what type of comunity do you want this to be?

You say:
However, creating an enviroment where people can loose their freedom of speach for superflious transgressions is rather facist. It defeats the very core idea that this forum is
trying (in my understanding) to perpetuate--free conmunication. The idea is to keep the information freely flowing the the uneducated public, correct? I fail to see how kicking
out people for petty reasons furthers this goal. It would seem to deter it to me.
I say (from the Rules that you're obviously not reading):
We're actually a very loose and mellow collection of people who just happen to have discovered that an enlightened dictatorship, with totalitarian enforcementof certain rules ,
leads to the most conducive conditions for the uninhibited discussion and freedom of speech of a subject matter often reduced (on other sites) to the lowest common
denominator of 12 year old pimply faced $k8t3r p(_)|\|kZ who wish to impress their equally "fearsome" 12 year punk friends with tales of having made c-4 from peanut butter
and Drain-O crystals.
Also, your grammer is atrocious, leading me to believe you're a 13 year old yourself. :)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Thermite Bullets
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anarchist666 November 8th, 2003, 10:01 PM

Thermite is a power packed substance and it would be great if a thermite payload could be delivered in bullet form.
An idea I had was to drill a hole 7mm in diameter inside a 9mm bullet... then fill the hole with thermite and cap the hole with a magnesium plug. The bullet will turn into
molten lead and iron inside the victims body. However, Im not sure if gunpowder is hot enough to light magnesium.
What are your thoughts?
+++++++++++++++++
We'll keep the color of our posts to white, will we?
Rhadon
irish November 8th, 2003, 10:36 PM

I don't think smokeless powder will set off magnesium, (I'm presuming that you are talking about drilling the hole in the back of the slug?). Also it's going to be far to small an
amount of Thermite to do anything worth the bother of putting it in there, if it was .50 or a 12 gauge slug it may have some use for starting fires, setting of fuel tanks etc. but
I can't see any point in small incindery (sp) rounds for anti-personell use.
PS. the red type in your post looks awfull ;) .

Military .50 cal API rounds contain a thermite core and an impact sensitive ignitor.
You would want to mix a strong oxidiser with the magnesium (powder it), this should ignite from the smokeless and also be hot enough to ignite the thermite.

As it happens, I was doing this at the bonfire party I was at last night! After setting off the shop fireworks, I tried this.
Using lab grade iron oxide (red) and aluminium powder, mixed approx 3:2 by volume (could have been 2:1), I failed to get ignition when using smokeless propellant. It was
slow stuff, a mix out of pulled Eygptian army ammo (which is cheap and crap!) with a bit of Bullseye thrown in for bulk. I thought it was the Thermite, as it was mixed at least
three years ago, but it went fine when I touched a sparkler to it.
So no, it won't work. Pehaps with more powder, or a faster powder? I didn't have much smokeless, and I was setting it up in near darkness. I tried it because alt.pyro
suggested that it was quite good, but there you go.
From memory, I used to have fun getting Thermite started. The best way I ever came up with was either potassium or sodium chlorate and sugar mix. Make a pile of your
Thermite, stick a few bits of magnesium ribbon in it, sticking out like a fuse, then pour some KClO3/Sugar mix on it. Then light it by throwing on a match. It would go really
easy, and the Thermite would go from the Mg fuse, which went from the chlorate mix.
As an aside, we wanted to try to get it so we could set it up so it went of when it rained, using sodium to light the chlorate mix, but we couldn't get it to work. Probably a good
job, thinking about what it was going to be used for!! (It was very silly)

Unless you reload, dont even try. Prying the bullet out with plyers severely damages the bullet, and trying to put it back into the casing and making it fit into the chamber of a
gun would be nearly impossible.
Look for tracer bullets. They come in just about ever caliber out there, and would give reults similar to what you suggested. They are pretty expensive, so its not a bullet you
can take to the range every week.
Arkangel November 10th, 2003, 08:33 AM

My thoughts are that you don't really understand thermite any more than you understand bullets.
I'm not going to grace your idea with any more "on topic" remarks, but I DO want to say that it's a sad reflection on the forum today that a dullard newbie like you can make
an idiotic thread like this his first post and doesn't get shown the door immediately.
Rhadon November 10th, 2003, 09:37 AM

I considered banning him when I saw his post, but that was at about 04:30 AM and I was so stoned that I was in doubt whether I could judge that case appropriately :). So he
has a second chance, let's see if he makes use of it. Experience shows that they never do, but let's wait and see...
Axt November 11th, 2003, 09:03 AM

Every fucking new post seems to be a newb with something stupid to say. Start banning people, Starting with the twit above, then going on to every other newb with 1st post
new topics.
Make them scared again. :mad:
DBSP November 11th, 2003, 09:09 AM

Done....:D

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I have searched the archives and not found anything on the types of shotgun ammo available, and the effects they have on
various things.
I know they aren't necessarily improvised, but some are, and there isn't a better section.
All the following relates to 12 bore, unless otherwise noted.
As a starter for ten:
Tracer rounds:
In the UK, there are now tracer rounds available for shotgun. They are very expensive, at about 1 a shot, and I don't know
how good they are. I just saw them, bought them, and forgot about them. Rediscovered them recently, and will report the
effects, etc. when I get a chance to shoot them. Available on a shotgun certficate in the UK. Apparently, they won't light a bale
of dry hay if fired right into it! :(
Slug rounds:
I have experience of four types of slug. In the UK, they are section one, which is highly restricted. The four types are:
Homemade

To make these is simple. Take a standard shotgun cartridge. Use your trusty Swiss Army Knife to corkscrew the crimp open.
Empty out most of the shot, and melt into a rough mould about 9 to 11 mm across. (I used a brick and a hammer drill.
Smack brick in half, place edges together, clamp and drill hole.) Replace slug into cartridge and fill carefully around it with
remaining shot. Press crimp closed. Steel can be added, but no real difference was seen on targets. Use of plastic wads is
recommended, as they cup better. Fairly accurate at 40 yards. Penatrated a standard radiator cleanly at this range. :cool:
Brennek (sp?)

These are the fairly standard slugs you may have seen. Big soft lead slug screwed to a fibre wad, with a domed nose. Puts a
big dent in 4mm steel oil tank at 30 yards, as slug atomises. Relatively cheap, and used in France for Boar hunting. Available
OTC over there.
Copperheaded

This type had a fairly obvious copper/brass head, above a lead body with a red plastic wad. Better penatration, resulting in
penatration of 4mm of steel and a big dent in second spaced layer. The copper head seemed to be driven in, to penetrate, by
the sacrifice of the lead coat. The plastic wad would also separate on hard targets.
Scary hollowpoint

The only 3" (magnum) shotgun cartridge here, this beast had near 50% more recoil, and a case longer than the chamber in
my shotgun (2 3/4"). This was longer (obviously) and had what looked like a Brennek slug in it from the front, but with a large
hollow point. From the side could be seen what looked like ridges, and a full length peice of metal, as a cylinder. There
appeared to be no wad, just this weird cylinder.
Upon firing, the hollowpoint made a real mess of a tree. Against a hard target, it penatrated both sides of the steel tank! An
extended backstop was constructed, and after some digging, it was found that the projectile was a hard plastic dart, with a
steel rod in the center, which was came forward, and was inside the lead, stopping just behind the big lead hollowpoint.
(Note that this was a good, new modern design of shotgun, with nitro proof, but shorter chambers.)
Other rounds:
Shotshells
These are your standard shells. Good to about 45 yards, depending on the target and the shot size. The heavier the shot, the
less likely you are to hit the target, but the further they go. BB is quite a heavy shot, and goes about 65 yards. #10 is very
small, and goes about 35 yards. Chokes also play a part.
Dustshot
Available in .22, they are classed as shotgun ammo. Very fine dust-like lead shot. Good for fragging a tin can at arms' length,
but not much else. Available in 9mm and bigger for snakes, in some countries, apparently.
Rods
The only one I have no experiance of. Apparently, it is possible to fire a muzzle loader or shotgun loaded with a blank
cartrigde, whilst a rod has been put down the barrel. I seem to remember there is a phrase for it... This is what a lot of cadets
used to do, too, by dropping pencils down No.4 rifles loaded with blanks. Could also be done with an arrow?
I know that there are things like (comercial) grenade cartridges out there... so post about how good they are!:)
kvitekrist November 17th, 2003, 01:15 PM

Intresting topic, so i wil add a couple of things.
I have about 2 ideas for easy shotgun slugs.
The first one is the simplest and maby most dagerous of them all. It consist of a standar shotgunshell cutt almost in two
around the vadding point, when shot the whole front half of the shell will leave the barrel and keep the pellets collected until
impact. This is ofcourse dangerous with a fully choked shotgun but it works nicely and i have been using it many times in my
old O/U
The second one is also an easy solution and probably the safest. It's made by cutting a small hole in the center of the
crimping end of the shell, then pour melted wax in the pellets thus holding all the pellets together in the pellets cup.
I have also replaced the pellets with one .50 cal led roundball, and it did work nicely.. the only prblem is the opening of the
shellcrimping.
Cricket November 17th, 2003, 04:42 PM

I have heard of cutting the shell too. I think it was mentioned here somewhere recently and also, I found my grandpa's old 12
gauge shells and some were cut and I didn't know why. It was cut evenly all the way around, like from a pipe cutter. The other
thing I have to say is that I have seen very useful looking shotgun slugs for sale. Here is a pic http://www.corbins.com/
slugs.htm from a company that sells swaging stuff to make them.
dana_m_h November 17th, 2003, 04:55 PM

this is interesting i got a magazine in the mail in the us all ammo in it is legal go here: http://www.deltaforce.com on page 26
is the ammo
dana_m_h November 17th, 2003, 05:01 PM

i probably should just add this to my earlier post but o well here is another "odd" site for everyone http://
www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/default.asp

Opening and closing the crimp is easy. Use the wide type of corkscrew, as seen on swiss army knives.
Close by pushing hard with a bit of dowel a bit smaller than the end.
Aaron-V2.0 November 17th, 2003, 06:41 PM

Ever thought of reloading a shell with Lye powder or pellets if they're available. Pellets would probably turn to powder when
fired but I imagine a cloud of sodium hydroxide would be a good self defense round when out in the open.

I posted that idea in the "Acid Attacks" thread (search if you want it). There are a few problems though such as the NaOH
corroding your shotgun but read the Acid Attacks thread if you want to find out about it.
EDIT: Here is the thread, it appears that you also came up with the idea independently:http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?s=&threadid=2981

An interesting idea, but you might be right about the damage to the gun.
How about using something like Hoppes or 009? They stink, and burn, and give off ammonia, but since they are designed for
cleaning firearms, they are never going to damage the bore.
12Gauge November 18th, 2003, 05:44 AM

Yes interesting thread, indeed- however most of your information is wrong!
1) What you have labeled a Brennek is actually called a Foster Type Slug and is what is considered a "normal" slug. Ususally
about 1oz of soft lead. Also they come in two types:
a) Rifled slug- small, twisted ridges all the way around the body of the slug to produce stabilizing spin in smoothbore unrifled
shotguns, much like the rifling in any other firearm.
b) Sabot- a smaller than barrel dimension slug encased in a plastic "shoe" - much like the "scary slug" you have described.
2) Brenneke Slugs are made of copper- they are fired out a sabot- they are not really a "type" of slug as Brenneke is a brand
name ( although many people call all of these types of slugs "brenneke")- there are several other brands that make
Brenneke type slugs.
3) Your scary slug is very scary- I will only say this once NEVER EVER EVER FIRE 3" SHELLS OF ANY TYPE IN A GUN ONLY
CHAMBERED FOR 2 3/4" shells. This is so dumb I can't beleive you did this. Anyone with a modicum of common sense would
tell you this is a VERY BAD IDEA! You are lucky that your gun didn't blow up in your face fool! Only fire 3" shells in a gun
designed and chambered for 3" shells!
Jacks Complete November 18th, 2003, 09:26 AM

12gauge,
Thank you for the advice. However, I took a calculated decision that the gun, and I, would survive. I wasn't using a crappy old
shotgun, but a very heavy barrelled (for a shotgun), under two year old O/U shotgun designed for shooting lots of rounds.
I know how far overpressure these things are, and I checked the proof marks, so was sure that the gun, although the wrong
chamber length, could take the higher pressures invloved, and that it also has an overbore barrel with a longer forcing cone.
Also, I only ever had 6 of these.
As for the sabot design, yes, I recall that they were, in fact, sabotted. Very impressive things, they were. Lots of recoil, and
lots of target damage.
Sorry if the other terminology was a bit out. It isn't like I bought them somewhere I could speak the lingo, and it took almost
ten minutes to explain what I wanted in French!
zeocrash November 18th, 2003, 12:57 PM
i'm not sure about the practicalities of making one of these, but i seem to remember that back in the days before planes had
propper built in weapons (ww1), aviators used to just carry firearms in their cockpits and shot them at other planes, more like
an army soldier, in a plane rather than a pilot.
anyway one of the weapons used by the aviators was a shotgun.
instead of being loaded with standard shells, this shotgun was loaded with special ammo. in this ammo, the pellets were
lightly larger than usual and they were all connected together with a latice of cheese wire. anyway as i said before i'm not sure
about the practicalities of making one of these, but getting hit in the head or on a limb with one of these shots would cause
some very serious lacerations(sp?)
A-BOMB November 18th, 2003, 01:56 PM

You can do a similar thing with ballchain I really have no idea what this stuff proper name is (the chain that military dogtags
are on) Just take a few pieces of it and place the ends together like the spokes on the wheel of a bike and take some wire
and lead sinkers. Then tie a sinker to one of the ends of each wire then take up all the loose ends and use the wire to tie
them together as to make a cat of 9 tails type of thing then load into the shell.

I have tried that too.
I could never get it to work well, though. I used 50lb breaking strain line, and fishing weights. The whole thing was about 50cm
on a side, triangular, and I thought it would be great.
Sadly, when I patterned one, the cardboard showed that the whole thing failed to spread out, and left just one funny shaped
hole. The second one cut a hole about two inches at the widest. The rest of the shot spread normally. I figure that the idea
would have worked if the barrel was rifled, or if the wire was stiff and springy. However, I baulked at putting a 50cm bit of
spring steel down the barrel of my shotgun!
If anyone has any success with this trick, please post!
Also, has anyone ever used a "Duplex" slug? It has two smaller slugs, that fire at the same time.
The wax idea is a very old trick, and shouldn't be tried through an old shotgun. I might try the scoring method.
Thinking of wax rounds, the "Hatton" round is a similar thing. It is a slug, but it is made, apparently, of metal dust (lead?)
mixed with wax. It is used for blowing door hinges off, and other types of dynamic entry, without much risk to people on the
other side of the door. It hits, dumps its energy, and vapourises/disintegrates, so nothing shoots through.
Again, anyone tried them? There are videos online from manufacturers. Do you have to be in really close, or do they hang
together when you fire one at a distance?
irish November 18th, 2003, 05:42 PM

12Guage, not all rifled slugs are Forster slugs the original patent was by Brenneke and there are still a few variations of the
original one on the market, although a lot of the slugs available are forster type slugs.
There is a slug made by RC of Italy that is like a ball with a rifled wad attatched to the bottom of it (pella aqilla ?) this slug
has the best penetration of any slug I've tested. They all have there good and bad points and they all tend to destroy
whatever they hit :D , I will try to get a photo of my test results (before and after firing) of some different slugs and post it
here.
Below is a little history of the rifled slug.
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/4206/slughist.html
http://www.dnrws.com/rottweil.html
PHAID November 18th, 2003, 07:29 PM

The round you describe sounds like a bolo round.
Depending on who makes it they will have 2 round balls connected with wire or 2 flat pieces connected with wire.
here is a site that has several of the most common speciality rounds.
http://www.wapahani.com/equip3.html
the site is for a game but the descriptions and pics are accurate. the prices and damage they list is total BS.
12Gauge November 20th, 2003, 07:25 PM

12Guage, not all rifled slugs are Forster slugs the original patent was by Brenneke and there are still a few variations of the
original one on the market, although a lot of the slugs available are forster type slugs.
True, True- although I never said all rifled slugs are foster type- there are also a third type- unrifled Foster type slugs- just a
fat chunk of lead w/ or w/out a hollow point cavity.
A couple of years ago I had a bunch of "Wammo Ammo" explosive slugs- basically just a regular lead hollowpoint slug w/
some sort of explosive capped with epoxy. I don't really know if they worked at all- no big explosion or anything... but they
did do some good damage to any tree I hit with it. I imagine the explosive just opened up the hollowpoint faster than it
normally would.
12Gauge November 20th, 2003, 07:29 PM

I had some of those Dragon's Breath rounds, too. Kinda neat- huge flash and bang- shot out several "sparklers" which would
travel about 50 yards- other than that- totally useless (unless maybe you shot someone from about 5ft away...)
Shaneh November 22nd, 2003, 02:19 AM

Noooooo the .22 long rifle rimfire "shot cartridge" is for shooting vermin such as rats, sparrows etc., in and around factories, at
close range by the likes of pest extrminators....
The very fine pellets and all, make for the quick use of a very light and short fire arm, at rapidly moving targets or times of
limited opportunity, and the rounds are more or less very safe when discharged in such circumstances (safety glasses and ear
plugs) within places where grain handling & other such activites occour.
Jacks Complete November 22nd, 2003, 10:00 AM

The descriptions off that link are quite good. I though it would be worth adding them to our pool of knowledge.
<ul>
<li>Big Bird: A military round designed
to emmulate the 40mm flashbang rounds, it is said to have a report much
like that of a 40mm grenade launcher-something which is usefull for psy-ops.</li>
<li>Blanks: Just that-loud report
and flash when fired but no damage.</li>
<li>Bolo: Reminescent of an old Civil
War cannon load this cartidge is comprised of two steel weights connected to a strand of steel cord.</li>
<li>Buck & Ball: A round loaded
with one slug and 6-00 buckshot pellets to offer both close up and long range stopping power.</li>
<li>Chain: Just that, a 6 inch strand
of chain which is propelled from the shotgun shell.</li>
<li>Comet Slug: A combination of a shotgun slug and tracer to allow one to view where the round is going
in nighttime conditions-it's yellow tracer is visible out to 300 meters</li>
<li>CS: Used for riot control it is similiar to the FERRET round or CS grenades-but the quanity of agent
delivered is less.</li>
<li>Double Slug: A round which is
loaded with two slugs instead of the tradtional one.</li>
<li>Door Busters: A speciality round
for miliatary and counter-terrorist work as the load fires a find compressed load of buckshot which is used to take out the
hinges on doors.</li>
<li>Dragons Breath: A special Incendiary/Tracer
round it's effects can be quite dramatic on those unprepared for it.</li>
<li>Home Defense: This load was designed
for civilan use as the buckshot load is made from hollow brass material which is said to not overpenetrate the target.</
li>
<li>Mini Bean Bag: Designed for riot
control or suspect apprehention it is a reduced bean bag round from the 70's.</li>
<li>Mini Grenade: A military round designed to give the shotgun some offensive capability.</li>
<li>Riot Control: These generally consist of wedges or other plastic batons which are used to strike people
without doing serious damage to them (thoguh the definition of serious is questionable).</li>
<li>Sabot: Esentially a large Slug
round which is designed for Armor Piercing duties and longer range shots.</li>
<li>Teleshot: A speciality round
of the military-it uses a unique method of being fired from the barrel (essentially a telescoping round which ejects the round)-
this process greatly reduces the noise from the shotgun making it extremelly quiet.</li>
<li>Thorn: A speciality round loaded
up with tacks instead of buckshot or slug rounds.</li>
</ul>
The above might give people some ideas for working up their own toys. You could even try putting a tracker bug or something
in one, though I don't know if you could shoot a magnetic mine.
Shaneh, the .22 microshot cartridges I have used were perhaps capable of killing a sparrow at three inches. Beyond a foot, it
wouldn't even penetrate an empty aluminium coke can, and even at six inches, it only knocked it over, leaving two very small
holes. Considering how hard you need to hit a rat to kill it (I know you need a head shot with an airrifle most of the time, and
I have heard about enough that crawled away when hit by .22 rounds in the hindquarters or even lungs!) I suspect these must
be for about boot length distance!
Have you ever used any? What effects do they have on targets?
Flake2m November 22nd, 2003, 01:10 PM

Has there ever been any shotgun rounds that use long headless nails or thin needles??
I would think this is the "thorn" ammo but I could be wrong.
SWIM made a round for his spud cannon that consisted of a large bunch of sewing needles. The round didn't have much of an
damage pattern on cardboard because the needle just went straight through, however most of them were driven into a rather
large tree that was nearby
Ok just before I get too off topic, if the same applies to a shotgun then the ammo would probaly do quite well against body
armor. Nails would do more damage and should have a similar effect. SWIM would probaly use 2in long bullet head nails fly
straight, since they'd be bigger and heavier.
PHAID November 22nd, 2003, 04:23 PM

The ammunition you describe is called a flechette round.
They have been around for many years and have been made in several calibers.
You can get the parts to make your own or buy the loaded rounds.
Here are a few sites that give information on several types of rounds.
http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/007.html
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__17/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html
http://www.wapahani.com/rifles.html
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/4-30.13/appf.htm
http://www.v8go.co.uk/business/technical/weapons/ammunition.asp
The last link gives you links to many other ammunition sites.
Hope this information helps you with what your looking for.
12Gauge November 22nd, 2003, 05:24 PM

I know how far overpressure these things are, and I checked the proof marks, so was sure that the gun, although the wrong
chamber length, could take the higher pressures invloved, and that it also has an overbore barrel with a longer forcing cone.
Fair enough- I still say this is a very bad idea. The issue isn't really that the 3" shells are higher pressure ( to begin with) than
2.75"- the fact is when stuffed into a shorter chamber, the pressure can be many times as high as with a shell designed for
that chamber. Reason is that the shell will not open properly in the short chamber, increasing pressure dramatically ( over and
above the difference in the two to begin with) sometimes enough to burst even new, well made guns. You sound like you have
some idea of what you are doing- however many of those who browse these forums don't - and if they go out and emulate
your actions with some POS single shot- not a pretty picture. The same thing could be said for much of the info in this forum-
but I would at least hope that those choosing to play with explosives (and such) understand that that there is an element of
danger involved.
Jacks Complete November 23rd, 2003, 10:04 AM

12gauge,
I quite agree. You were right to point it out, and right to call me on it. That's why I took no offense. :)
The "scary" ones had an open end, with an unfamilier rolled back crimp. I reckoned it would be a lot shorter to open, as well.
You are so right, though. Headspace/chamber length is very important. That is why cartridges have a minimum cartridge
overall length (COL) as well as a maximum COL. If you wnat to fuck your firearm, just hammer the bullet back into the case,
and then try to fire it. For 7.62 NATO, the pressure spike doubles with 5 thousands of an inch too short, or something scary!
Also, there is no way on earth I would have tried it through my single barrelled shotgun, which is a light game gun, with a light
barrel, and bad recoil even on light loads. It has about a fifth as much steel as the O/U, and is Russian. It also has a small
pin inside the barrel, where the foresight is! Fire a high pressure slug through that, and you wouldn't fire anything ever again!
PHAID,
I tried making flechette rounds by cutting up wire coat hanger, then grinding them. I don't recall ever firing any, though, as
they were too long for the cartridges I had, and I was convinced they would somehow jam sideways in the barrel/chamber if I
didn't make loads and pack them in tight.
Thanks everyone, btw, for making my first thread a good one! :D
pangos_59 November 29th, 2003, 12:08 AM

http://www.firequest.com http://www.funammo.com
xyz November 29th, 2003, 03:45 AM

The second link just brings up a load of popups and other bullshit.
Third_Rail December 2nd, 2003, 11:29 AM

Has anyone tried the 12 gauge "screamer" rounds? It's basically a large whistling firework, propelled from the shotgun. Quite
fun.
Jacks Complete December 2nd, 2003, 12:08 PM

Third_Rail,
can you provide some details? Are these novelty items, or do they have some kind of use? Are they commonly available? Who
makes them?
More details in your posts, please!
PHAID December 2nd, 2003, 07:15 PM

Jack the screamers he is talking about fall iin to the same catagory as bird bombs.
They are made for the purpose of animal control to scare birds from orchards and such.
These days they are mostly a novelty item as most places now use the propane cannons.
To locate them they are in one of the links ive posted.

Third_Rail December 2nd, 2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Jack's Complete
Third_Rail,
can you provide some details? Are these novelty items, or do they have some kind of use? Are they commonly available? Who
makes them?
More details in your posts, please!

Sorry about that, mate. I personally got my screamers from Pyrotek, and they were sold to me as agricultural devices to scare
small animals away. They're pretty much available everywhere where you can find either agri supplies or specialty ammunition.
I believe Defense Products makes them, I'm not sure.
t3zza December 6th, 2003, 12:56 AM

good post hi all im also in uk.
keep up good work
xyz December 6th, 2003, 01:26 AM

Please don't post things that do not contribute to the thread.
I strongly advise you to read both the official rules, and the "Unwritten rules: Written Down" post in the "Water Cooler" section.
If you don't do these things then I'm sure your stay here at Rogue Science will be very short...
Skyscraper December 17th, 2003, 07:07 AM

Were a screamer or pepper shell (from the above sites) rigged to detonate on impact (say, with a large marble/BB taped to
the primer, I don't really know, I'm just guessing), could it be used as a cheap pepper grenade/distraction weapon?
chokingvictim78 December 18th, 2003, 01:29 AM

Skyscraper, I'm not quite sure if that would work out so well. First of all, what are you going to fire the entire shell from? How
would you stabilize it during flight? They wouldn't be cheap, either, compared to something you could make at home. A simple
hollow projectile made from thin plastic could house your irrirating agent, and a small amount of impact sensetive explosive in
the middle of all of it. The irritating agent could also simply be pressurized somehow, eliminating the need for an explosive to
be used at all. Somewhat off-topic, but I saw a program about non-lethal weapons pigs are starting to use, one was a semi-
automatic paintball gun that fired pepperballs, which were paintball shells filled with pepper. They fired 3 shots at a dummy,
and it was completely surrounded by a cloud of the powdered pepper. If ammo like this were to be improvised, it could be
carried around in a car or backpack inconspicuously, as long as you had regular paintball gear and some normal paint along
with it.
Flake2m December 18th, 2003, 12:37 PM

No one here has really mentioned shotgun grenades.
NBK made a PDF on a hypothetical way to make improvised shotgun grenades using a CO2 canister.
It'd also be intresting to know what some of the more exotic ammo types are used for. Ammo types such as chain, bolo and
thorn ammo would have very intrest damage patterns but I have no idea what the would be used for.
Skyscraper December 22nd, 2003, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by chokingvictim78
Skyscraper, I'm not quite sure if that would work out so well. First of all, what are you going to fire the entire shell from? How
would you stabilize it during flight? They wouldn't be cheap, either, compared to something you could make at home. A simple
hollow projectile made from thin plastic could house your irrirating agent, and a small amount of impact sensetive explosive in
the middle of all of it. The irritating agent could also simply be pressurized somehow, eliminating the need for an explosive to
be used at all. Somewhat off-topic, but I saw a program about non-lethal weapons pigs are starting to use, one was a semi-
automatic paintball gun that fired pepperballs, which were paintball shells filled with pepper. They fired 3 shots at a dummy,
and it was completely surrounded by a cloud of the powdered pepper. If ammo like this were to be improvised, it could be
carried around in a car or backpack inconspicuously, as long as you had regular paintball gear and some normal paint along
with it.
The shell wouldn't be fired, it'd go off on impact with the ground. You'd throw it (Assuming I'm correct about this marble thing.
I'm just guessing, really.) and it'd detonate. Since these aren't regular shotshells, they don't have to be stabilized or actually
pointed at anything. You could make a mace grenade, sure, but the shotgun shell is pre-assembled, and cheap.
Yeah, the malodrant launchers. IIRC the new FN rifle mounts an one, a FN 303. Their site says they rupture on impact,
though, and you'd need to be a major league pitcher to actually get an impact that would shatter it, I suspect. Also, they're
only .68 cal, so they'd be unlikely to actually affect an entire room.
You can buy a box of 150 .68 OC capsules for 445 USD, so they cost about three bucks a pop.
Flake: Thanks, I'll look out for the PDF. I imagine the whackier rounds are really just used for entertainment purposes. As far
as entertainment rounds are concerned, I've always wondered about making a screw-filled shell.
Jacks Complete December 22nd, 2003, 08:10 AM

The bolo idea doesn't work, in my experiance. Has anyone had any sucess with anything like that?
wrench352 December 22nd, 2003, 10:36 PM

In another thread,the need for less than leathal loads was brought up,to which I inquired about "salt shot".Salt shot at
onetime was quite popular,it is, for those who dont know,just a shell filled with rocksalt.I heard being shot with this is quite
painful.When I asked about commercial availability I was told by a fellow forumite to go google it.As much as I tried to
search,to no avail.I then emailed a dealer I know in gourmet stuff,and was given a name and number.Apparently an
individual.Also while I was thinking about this,how bout if you loaded a shotshell with phosphorus.Ouch!I would never use one
of those pepper rounds myself,it sounds like a potential nightmare.
One type of shot shell,not discussed so far is the safety disc.Here it is discussed in shotgun news:
Recectly I tested one of interesting and efficient shotgun shell loads I have ever had the pleasure to evaluate.The safetydisc
load is a real answer to modern problems,but it is based upon a legendary shotgun load. In the wild,wild west-mean times-
one of the more devastating shotgun loads was filled with dimes.You have to remember,shotgun shell technology was in its
infancy.A heavy loaded ten gauge was not really equal to the modern 12-guage load.
The shotgun was a good short range piece,but we mean truly short range.Doc Holiday once gave a miscreant both barrels of
his 10-guage and the man ran nearly a block before expireing.The range was longer the inside of the bar.
Something else was neede,and a perceived need is as good as any.Stacking a roll of dimes in a shotgun shell delivered a
devasting blow.Ballistic properties were just about nil,but the charge, if used,would work wonders.I am sure the mere threat of
such a load would deter a wild cowboy.George Clark has come up with a modern equivalent that shows great promise.
But the load is not only effective in the self defense context,this loading also offers greater safety to others in the household
or outside the home.The Safetydisc shell uses round disks that are partially serrated to ensure they break up when they strike
a target.The heavey metal alloy gives an aggressive slap on the target.
However,when they strike heavey furniture or even walls they give up all of their energy.Fired at the range at distances past 50
yards,they pose little threat.The pattern opens up about one inch per yard.These results were verified in my remington
870,with the Hastings custom barrel giving a tighter pattern overall.
When safety and wound potential are considered,the safetydisc works.
www.safetydiscammo.com (http://www.safetydiscammo.com)
Skyscraper December 23rd, 2003, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by wrench352
Also while I was thinking about this,how bout if you loaded a shotshell with phosphorus.
That (or something like it) has been done before. The problem there is that you're firing the shell from a gun, and to leave
the gun, the phosphorous has to go out the barrel. In most cases, some of the incindiary material sticks, and you get a ruined
(or at least damaged) barrel. That's why you generally don't want to use any of those flamethrower-type shells unless you
have a cheap throwaway shotgun that you really don't want anymore.
You could make a phosphorous slug, I suppose, but I'm sure some of it would still stick in the barrel, and I'm not sure what
you'd be shooting that wouldn't die after being hit by a regular lead slug.

I wondered about the coins idea when I saw one of the Billy the Kid films. Last time I was in the states, I brought back some
coins, and, it turns out, the "new" 5p is the same size. I never made the shell, though, as I wasn't confident about it.
Anyone tried it?
The article would seem to be wrong, though, as a dime is just right for a 12, but would be too small for a 10.
Dave the Rave December 24th, 2003, 06:07 PM

1st - At my Country, farmer do use salt shots to protect their trees from little thiefs who came to steal their fruits. When I was
a kid, I used to steal apples from a farm near my home and, one nigth, me and a friend of mine was caugth by the farmer
while stealing their goods, and when we run away, the farmer shot me at my back. The bark was worst than the bite. Ive got
some bruises, some little wounds and quite a salty burn, but it was all. The shot itself was "sal grosso" regular prills of salt,
sold at markets as spicy to barbecues. The prills are the size of beans, ligthweigth, so the range isnt far or acurate. The
farmers simply open an regular 12ga shot, take out the lead and pour in the salt, then they crimp and seal back the case and
its done.
2nd - On the subject of shotgun ammo and shotguns itself,
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Shotguns.html
some nice thougths, more on shotguns than on ammnition...
3th - Ive tried the coins once, I saw the movie "young guns II" and tahe some one cent coins from my country. The coins fit
on a 36ga perfectly, but the experience wont worth my 5 cents. The shot isnt acurate, the coins tend to fly upwards, with an
ugly pattern, maybe 10 inchs out of the aiming point at 10 meters, plus the stopping power of the shot barely take out my
ballistic gelatin.
irish December 24th, 2003, 09:47 PM

A mate of mine often talks about getting shot with saltpeter as a kid pinching stuff of the market gardens, I'm told it's not a
fun experince getting the little lumps out :D .
As for coins out of a shotgun, I would be a bit worried that the muzzle end of the barrel would go flying down range with the
load when the stack of coins hit the choke, If they where smaller than the choke restriction they probably will get a lot of gas
blowby and pattern even worse (if that's possible :rolleyes: ).
12Gauge December 25th, 2003, 05:25 AM

http://www.sabredefence.com/ammunition/
This link has a variety of "less lethal" 12 Gauge ammo, for those interested in such things. I doubt these are easily available,
but would likely be easy to make if you wanted to...
atr December 25th, 2003, 09:32 PM

First post here guys but i have some experience with shotguns so here goes . I've owned a hunting/guideing/outfitting service
since 1980 and in that time i've been in on about 400 black bear kills . Of that , about 100 were taken with shotguns over bait
.
One slug stands out against all others and that is the foster , Brenneke 3 inch magnum . Out to 100 yards it will shoot
completely through any bear at any angle . No other slug will do that . Saboted slugs for rifled barrels have a slight accuracy
edge but i've never seen one shoot through a bear and have seen many times where multiple shots were required .
Some will say that a slug that doesn't go through imparts all of it's energy therefore is more efficient whereas a slug that
completely passes through is a waste of energy but based on real life experience i prefer a big hole in and a bigger hole out .
There was some discussion regarding the shooting of 3 inch slugs from a 2.75 inch chambered gun . I've done it , a few times
but wouldn't recommend it . The only ill effect i found was that the spent shells would not clear the ejection port and had to be
picked out with a knife blade .
I recently purchased a Remington 870P with a 14 inch modified choke barrel . My buckshot patterns weren't what i desired so i
had my gunsmith install a flush fit full choke . That worked well but i worried a little about shooting slugs through a fully
choked barrel so i e-mail , customer service at Brenneke , since they are the only slugs i'd bet my butt on in bear country.
Brenneke was fast to reply and they actually cleared up a misconception i had regarding the rifled fins swaged into thier slugs .
I thought that they were to impart spin to stabilize but Brenneke replied that the fins on thier foster slugs were there to swage
down so they could be fired in a fully choked shotgun . They also warned not to shoot any of thier sabot slugs through a full
choke as they are designed for rifled barrels of improved cylinder or modified choke .
Improvised ammo , i tried flechettes made from finishing nails . Mine were totally unimpressive . A 6 foot shot pattern at 10
yards . I only fired 3 of them on paper but i won't be makeing anymore . Can't get the Dragons Breath around here so i
dumped the shot from a shell and replaced it with a mixture of highway flare and powdered magnesium . They will light up the
night but i know of no practical application for them . I've tried cutting the shot shells at the wad to make slugs and that works
. I guess it's like a pre-fragmented single projectile . One test was two sheets of 1/2 inch plywood at 30 yards with one sheet
of plywood spaced 2 feet behing the other . There was a single hole in the first sheet and a 6 inch diameter hole in the second
. Don't cut the shells all the way through , just cut them enough to weaken them at the wad . I know of a fellow that tried it but
cut the shell all the way through and i believe that there was about a 1/8 inch gap between the 2 sections when he fired . The
result was a buldged barrel , but it could have been much worse .
If i have any advice it would be to stick to factory ammo as they make it for everything from moose to mice .
On a final note i tried some .22 shotshells from a 4 inch revolver . Some refer to them as snake loads . My cowboy boots are
snakeskin so i set one up at a range of 3 yards . The shot scuffed the polish but nothing penetrated or even stuck in the
surface of the boot . Those shotshells were manufactured by CCI . The preformance may be a bit better from a rifle but i won't
be buying anymore .
thesentenial December 26th, 2003, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by Jack's Complete
I wondered about the coins idea when I saw one of the Billy the Kid films.
Jack's Complete : In your reference to the "coin idea". It was used in the old west. It was used to maximize close range punch
without over penetration. There is a round here in the US that is simular it is called a Safety Slug. I apologize but i do not
remember which company was manufacturing it. It is comprized of many lead/antimony disks scored three times across the
face. Many police forces are using them to eliminate overpenetration i.e. killing inoccents on the other side of an interior wall.
It only seems to be for close range so it might not be of much use as many light disks will certianly lose inertia rather quickly.
YTS December 27th, 2003, 06:51 PM

Theres a section on improvised shotgun shells in one of the pmjb cant remember which one . It metioned ringed rounds
among other things.
wrench352 December 27th, 2003, 10:42 PM

That sounds like washers,eek.I never really endorsed the safteydisc load,it just hadnt really been discussed.I like #4 low recoil
myself, its good for most situations.Slugs for everythingelse.I wonder if most of these "funky" loads would work in a real life
situation.The only exceptions being the doorbusters and the flechettes,which I intend to buy a case of,now that Ive seen they
actually work.The marines toyed with them for a while,but to the best of my knowledge no service branch uses them.They
sound brutal,not killing the target straight away,but disableing him,leaving him screaming in agony,to freak out the other
targets.
thesentenial December 28th, 2003, 04:15 AM

Jack's Complete the load you refer to is the safetydisc load made by SafetyDisc at http://www.sefetydiscammo.com P.O. Box
3132 Kingman, Az 86402-3132.
To the moderators I would've edited my post but it didnt show up, so if I screwed up lemme know.
RIP December 31st, 2003, 06:32 AM

My father shot a "peeper" with a rock salt 12ga shell. Turned out it was a neighbor kid from down the street. Never peeped
again! Also, for those out there that have 40mm launchers, Mr 40mm makes an adapter you can fire real 12 ga ammo,
including all the above, out of your GL. I have a 40mm and adapters for all gauges common un the US. I like the .410 the
best. Easy on the launcher and sholder when firing the carbine.
Anthony January 1st, 2004, 09:21 AM

IIRC "ringed" cartridges are ones that have been cut around the wad, as described above.
Also, I recall a discussion on another forum about those .22 dust rounds. Apparently, performance when fired from a
smoothbore rather than a rifled bore is very different. Perhaps this difference would allow close range ratting?
charger January 1st, 2004, 04:48 PM

This is about the 22 dust round. The college down the street from me uses 22 dust rounds to collect small animal specimins.
apparantly the dust is enough to kill a snake or rodent from close range without damaging the specimin
xyz January 2nd, 2004, 06:28 AM

Yeah, with those .22 shotshells, they only work properly when fired from a smoothbore barrel. If they are fired from a rifled
barrel then a lot of energy is wasted spinning the shot load therefore you get less penetration. The other problem with rifled
barrels is that, due to centrigugal force, the shot spreads into a wide "doughnut" pattern with all the shot on the edges and
none in the centre (where you were aiming).
Also, the crimped variety of .22 shotshells work much better than the plastic capped ones such as those manufactured by CCI.
Ammonal January 2nd, 2004, 09:19 AM

Yeah I can agree fully with XYZ's last post, although I have no problem relying on Winchester 'ratshot' as they are called
around here mincing a rabbit at 10 yards from a 2" smoothbore barrel, fired from a rifled barrel you just kick up a huge cloud
of dust around the rabbit. These are of course the .22 magnum length casing with 1/16" lead shot and a crimped end. Matter
of fact its just getting into snake season round here so I bought a couple of boxes and have nearly finished making my self a
3.5" barrelled single shot specifically for just having near when you come across a bloody 6 foot long brown snake.
Mods: if I post some pics here of the gun and a heap of 'ratshot' for informational and comparative purposes would this be
alright?
Sure, just make sure that any images you post don't stretch the page horizontally when viewed at 800x600
keith January 3rd, 2004, 02:31 PM

Instead of making a new thread I'l post this in here. I have a Rem. Express 12g. Has anyone ever extended their mag
capacity. I do combat drills and police compotition drills with shotguns pistols and tac. rifles. My shotgun isnt up to scratch for
these drills and even with the mag plug removed I have to reload after my 5 shells are gone to engage any final targets while
my friends who actually have real combat shotguns and not some fucking hunting shotgun dont have to. I toast them at the
pistol and rifle range but I need my shotgun mag extended. Anyone know how to make one?
guerrero January 15th, 2004, 11:46 PM

A very interesting site with diferent types of improvised slugs I found in the web: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/historia4.html
Especially the sovjetish P.M.D.K. SABOT SLUG seems to be very well designed. Generally the guns.connect page is very
interesting.
----------------
If you post a link, try it first. I fixed it for you this time. It might be worth mentioning that the site you're leading us to does
not only contain Finnish but also English text. Else everyone will close it at once when he sees that he cannot understand a
word of what's standing on the first page.
Rhadon
AsylumSeaker January 16th, 2004, 10:27 PM

Not really a weapon, but improvised shotgun slug none the less is to replace the buckshot with stars from a firework and you
have a stargun. Never tried it but sounds fun. I hear you can actually buy these in america but I doubt you can here.
Something else would be to put a little plastic bag of petrol or some other flamable liquid or some naptha in the shell in place
of a projectile and shoot fireballs. Has anyone thought of taking a throwing dart, or manufacturing their own dart which can be
encased in a sabot as a shotgun projectile. I havn't used a shotgun other than an old double barrel type where you open it on
its hinge to put the shells in. This way it shouldn't matter if the dart is longer than a normal shell, you could just have the
pointy end of the dart sticking out in the middle of the crimping.
irish January 16th, 2004, 11:23 PM

You would have to have a way of lighting the stars when they were fired, putting them in a shotshell on a wad and firing them
will just make a load that looks like anyother (only non lethal). Also pyro stars will bugger the barrel of your gun if you don't
clean it within a very short time.
You may be able to make a load like a small open ended pyro shell with a timefuse with one end in the propellent powder and
the other in a bit of blackpowder with the stars around that.
The hard bit would be makeing a timefuse that will light with smokeless and getting the delay so it will fire the stars not long
after it leaves the gun.
It will also have to fit thru the choke of your shot gun .
With the dart just remember that whatever the shot weight the powder charge was meant to propel, if your dart is hevyer it
may be very bad for your health ;) .
CommonScientist January 16th, 2004, 11:33 PM

Here is an interesting shotgun load, the flechette. My dad used a bigger version in Vietnam in his M79 GL. <A HREF="http://
www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/005.html">Click to go to page</A HREF>
Third_Rail January 17th, 2004, 11:44 AM

A simple solution can be had, though; using any sbs shotgun that you don't truly care about, use "coyboy" shells (blackpowder
loaded shells) and no wad at all. The stars would ignite and be propelled out of the barrel for certain... although, as irish said,
if you don't clean it right away, say hello to corrosion and other fun surprises.
Fergus January 20th, 2004, 08:44 AM

The Dragon's Breath round I fired was most impressive; it'd be great if you wanted to greet a gang of thugs witha nice warm-
up present. Not to be used in the house though!!! The trouble with the flechette rounds is that they do not hold a sufficient
number of darts to really be efective. The 106mm recoilless rifle flechette rounds we had in the army contained 6,000 darts;
they were most effective.
Yorki_pyro March 1st, 2004, 12:44 PM
www.guns2u.com
These folks sell some rubber bullet loaded shotshells (as well as a "self defence pistol" to fire them)
Jacks Complete March 7th, 2004, 08:37 PM

I have thought of a great "new" shell to construct. Out shopping the other day, I spotted a packet of bamboo skewers, for 77p
for a whole load. Nice and straight, should be pretty strong. I shall be loading a shell up with a whole lot of 12" rods, and
testing that!
I think they will act a little like a flechette round... :)
I won't be able to test fire it for some time, though. I promise to get the digicam on the case, though.
zaibatsu March 7th, 2004, 09:41 PM

I doubt that'd be very dangerous, apart from maybe taking someones eye out.
Caesar March 9th, 2004, 10:51 PM

MY freind was messing around with reloading his shells. He has a cute little 12 guage that takes magun laods. If you have
ever heard of the bean bags that police use as a less lethal technique, you will know what i am talking about. He took a small
piece of cloth and filled it with 7 size shot. He laoded it into the shell, but forgot to reduce the charge. It went through a tree.
he also put rice in a load. there was no recoil, and it sucked. not very loud at all, and it smells wierd. One idea i have is to
grind up glass and load that beast up, but i am afraid of what it might do to the barrel. i need input on that idea.
Caesar March 9th, 2004, 10:54 PM

i meant magnum loads.

I doubt that'd be very dangerous, apart from maybe taking someones eye out.
Well, maybe for vampires?
Seriously, you think sharpened bamboo skewers doing ~Mach 1 wouldn't sting more than a little? 35 of them?
I know they don't weigh much, but they have a lot of length, so the mass to CSA should be enough for them to carry a fair
way. I reckon 25-35 yards.
Stability might be an issue, and I expect the group to be somewhat large, even fairly close, but we shall see (probably not for
six weeks+ though)

I reckon that as soon as they start to leave the barrel they will start to fan out, and as soon as they're not travelling straight
they will slow down very fast. But what diameter of bamboo skewers are we talking about? I think I may be thinking of the
wrong things - 2mm diameter?
Dave the Rave March 11th, 2004, 01:58 PM

JC, are you talking about those bamboo "rashi" ? You know, the chopstick ?
Around here its 2mm dia, 15 centimeters long, cut directly paralell to the fibers alignment. Small flechetes can be cut, 5
centimeters long to sharpen the point, but its not very funtional, as its an light load. I think that, by 10ft it can stop anyone,
at least for a while.
The point is that its not really precise, but if you cut its back, cross section, youll get four traction points to stabilize the
flechet.
Im trying another round, its an piece of white pinus, an very soft wood, cut and round the size of the gauge and with an
holle drilled, from top to almost bottom.
This hole, that on one 12ga. is the size of one .44, is then filled with molten lead to form an slug. After that, I cut diagonal
grooves, from top to bottom, on the wood, to make it spin when shot and to easily disinthegrate the wood after it contacts the
target. The wood acts as an discarding sabot to guide the slug and give a very high rate of acuracy.
Another kind of shot is based on the same principles, but, instead of the lead be poured directly on the hole, an small piece
of copper tubbing is put inside the hole and then, the molten lead. It gives an softpoint metaljacket slug, with good
penetration and an beautifull mushroom pattern.

They are skewers, your sizes and description seems about right. But Dave, a 2mm thick chopstick would be rather tricky! I
know they aren't for long range work, but these are just for fun! It will be interesting to see how long they stay straight, too.
Dave, for your idea, I think you would do better to drill a brick for the casting, else the lead will set fire to the wood. Let us
know how you get on.

JC, sometimes I forget that we can do things just for fun... ;)
About the brick isnt very good, as it can scrach the bore of the gun, and wont brake prior to hit the target. The white pinus
dont burn when filled with molten lead, it will merely "toast" a bit... The lead wont be put incandescent on the wood, it will be
poured a little cooled.
First Ive tried to soak the wood on water, to cool donw the lead, but it was an disaster, the vapour tried to pass through the
molten lead, splashing it everywhere... Then I found that a little on wax on the walls of the piece of wood can protect it from
being burned, and also, to ease the flux of lead to it dont develop bubles inside the slug.
Ive found, also, that when an small piece of copper tubing is inside of the wood, it steals much of the temperature of the
lead, and it dont allows the wood be burnt.
The next weekend Ill go to my familys farm and Ill test my shots, after that Ill post.

Dave,
no, I meant use the brick as a mould, then pop it out, and attach to the wood.
I can see what you are getting at, though. Try using oak, or a good hardwood, and it should be better than softwood. Firstly it
has a lower moisture content, and second it resists fire far better, turning to a harder charcoal.
Let us know how you get on!
THAT Dude April 22nd, 2004, 02:53 PM

Firequest now sells a bolo round.
It consists of two lead slugs connected by a steel wire :D .
I think it would be useful for cutting the legs out from under a druguser
(you know the kind of drug that makes it hard to kill them[pcp I think]).
www.firequest.com also sells many other specialized types of ammo.
shadow2501 May 9th, 2004, 08:46 PM

One word on those french boar hunt cartridge,french police force uses an enhanced version of those,one metal dart within a
plastic container,at the impact the container is stopped but the dart continues further in the target, new version of this PAR
(reinforced action projectile) can go throught car door,disable a motor or a class 2 body armour as if it was butter.But since the
container is plastic made,maybe a defense pistol should support the firing of those cartridges, replacing rubber bullets by
armor piercing ones fired with a simple to buy (in Europe) gun should be interesting :D
BaDSeeD May 9th, 2004, 10:47 PM

Your "calculated risk" was pretty damned stupid.
I havn't been on this forum in a long long time, and now I remember why I left.
Foolish kids doing things that are just idiotic.
First off, firing a 3 inch shell out of a 2 3/4 inch chamber has not a damned thing to do with pressures.
A 2 3/4 inch chamber only has enough room for the crimp on that size shell to open.
When you fired a 3 inch shell the crimp opened and overlapped the shoulder at the end of the chamber where it starts into the
barrel. That causes a blockage where the shot load and wad cant cleanly exit the barrel. The pressure ratings for the shells are
unobstructed pressures. When you fired didn't you notice that you probably ripped the crimp right off the shell? Not neatly
opened it? You probably now have a bulge in your barrel, and your damned lucky that it didn't rumpture in your face.
I've seen that happen from other idiots that can't read the print on the side of the barrel "FOR 2 3/4 INCH SHELLS ONLY!!!".
One of the jackasses lost his right eye, and quite a bit of his face and nose. Not to mention destroying a beautiful Browning
Gold.
Do you think they put that there for shits and giggles? The pressure you hit in that gun was probably 3 - 4 times HIGHER than
what the shells are supposed to fire at.
Your trying to talk about this subject like you are an authority on it, and your just going to get some kid killed.
And before you wonder what kind of an authority I am on the subject. I just turned 29 yesterday. I have been firing rifles and
shotguns weekly sometimes daily since I was 11 years old.
I reload shotgun, pistol and rifle. I compete in long range rifle, rifle silhouette, pistol silhouette, action pistol, sporting clays,
trap, skeet, and even 3D archery.
I AM and authority on the subject. Your "calculated risks" are either going to get you or someone else killed. If its someone
else I hope you can live with yourself when you find out. If its you, well then we can all agree that Darwins law is beneficial to
humans as well. You'll have improved the population, by removing yourself from it.
Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem. -Virgil's Aeneid
guerrero February 15th, 2005, 06:08 PM

A very interesting modification of a single shot shotgun, used by the cuban guerrilla is a mortar for molotov cocktails. They
used it with exit at a distance of about 100 meters.
Jacks Complete February 16th, 2005, 11:55 AM

Wow, that's quite something. Do you think it exceeds 2.5 inches though?
Has anyone ever tried anything like this? I think getting 100 yards would be impossible with a heavy glass bottle full of petrol/
oil mix - a stick doesn't go that far!
Also, that picture should surely show a lanyard! If the stick goes through the bottle base, you will be on fire in .02 of a second!
(There's quite a lot missing from this thread, like my lengthy reply on why what I did was fine, the remote firing tests,
checking for bulges and signs of cartridge overpressure, etc. I assume it went after iDickhead closed us down. To paraphase:
Yes, you know a lot, but so do I. I'm fine, I posted that it was dangerous, and that you shouldn't try it at home. What more
can I do? I did it over TEN years ago.)
THAT Dude February 16th, 2005, 05:47 PM

I read about how to make a shotgun into a grenade or Molotov cocktail launcher in The Anarchist Handbook (by Robert Wells).
The launcher in the book looks like what you are describing (I can't open pictures).
In the book he states that you should be able to get a range of about 160 yards, but I think that is a little optimistic.
It seams like it should work, but I have not tried it.
lowjack February 17th, 2005, 04:51 AM

Thats the 1st anarchist cookbook??? no!?? I think william powell wrote the one with page after page of incorrect harmful info.
Ropik February 17th, 2005, 07:12 AM

It is the classic from Improvised munitions handbook. Using shotgun to launch hand grenade or fire bottle. According to the
IMH, it can send grenade 160 yards away, 80 for a fire bottle. Reduce the powder charge in the shell to 1/2 (for grenade) or to
1/3(for a molotov). When a bottle is the desired projectile, always test fire with similar water-filled one to ensure that the
lauching shock will not break it and incinerate you.
Personally, I would not attempting something like this except in a very desperate circumstances. Even then, try it only with
modern shotguns in good condition and don't use any "hot" loaded shell for launching. However, I'd be interested in
anybody's dreamsabout this technique.
Jacks Complete February 17th, 2005, 01:35 PM

LOL... This is why I wondered if anyone had done this, and if it had worked.
I know there are a lot of "classic" tricks that do nothing but kill the user!
Tribal February 25th, 2005, 02:43 PM

This is rather interesting! You mean the classic trick with C4 in the shell? That might come in handy only when you need to kill
your hunting comrade. I'd never shoot from suidicide shells...

Suicide shells. /nice
Murder shells!
You take any cartrigde, fill it full of any HE, and give it someone to fire from a gun. The Viet Cong did this, to get US troops
who took war trophies. BANG! The gun explodes, and takes half your face with it.
THAT Dude March 17th, 2005, 07:48 PM

I found out that a 12gram co2 cartridge fits snugly into a 12gage shell.
That makes shooting all sorts of odd things possible like, Gyrojet style rockets :D , steel jacketed slugs, creater makers, ect.
(Ofcorse it would be better to shoot them from a 10gage with a sabot to keep from damaging your gun.)


Jacks Complete April 5th, 2005, 07:47 PM

THAT dude,
how tight a fit is it? You could try different makes, and I would suggest testing each one before starting work on it, in case
some are a bit too tight compared to the next.
You could always just take a little metal off with some wire wool or glasspaper.
Let us know how you get on.

THAT dude,

THAT dude,
Cobalt.45 September 19th, 2008, 08:30 PM

Some interesting 12 ga ammo. I believe Delta was mentioned earlier, but this has recent releases-
P e p p er, fle ch ette, duplex, "triplex", armor piercing, blanks, double slug, slug a nd 00 buck combo, 2 mushroom ing, 7-10
round mag extensions, etc. My personal favorite is the 12 GA. Exploder: "A stabilized, finned slug with a deep hollow core for
loading combustible materials."
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/pg31.html
Mini Missile 12 ga armo r piercing: http://www.d bcpyrote ch nics.com /servlet/the-787/9rds --dsh--12-Gauge/Detail
Extreme Sh ock 12 ga silent frangible , whistle a n d cubic sh ot and o ther rifle and handgu n cartridges, including "enhan ce d
penetration": http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/
product.html&setup=1&ida=7&idp=0&his=0&cart_id=333251.8584
iHME September 20th, 2008, 11:22 AM

There's a short pdf on scribd about building a explosive shotgunslug from a co2 cartridge.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6047003/shotgungrenademadabe

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > silenced ammo
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jackhammer January 10th, 2004, 12:57 PM

The problem inherent with silenced guns is that although one may silence the initial explosion which drives the bullet from the shell, that still leaves the problem of the
supersonic crack heard as the bullet passes over head. Of course, this problem too can be solved, most of the time by using subsonic ammunition (the famous mp5sd,
however, has a special chamber to tap off extra gas, slowing the bullet down without the need for special ammunition). The problem here is that this slowing vastly decreases
the damage done by the bullet. One could use poisoned or explosive tips, but explosive tips would be heard, and poison would not help the penetration of even slight armor. A
solution I stole from a number of different military techniques (among them APFSDS shot, composite armor, and the Steyr AMR / IWS 2000 round) would be to have a round
with an extremely dense core ending in a very sharp point, surrounded by materials of varying density and strength. That way the core could penetrate some armor by being
much stronger than the armor material and by having a greater amount of pressure per inch (due to the point). Even at a reduced speed the core should be capable of
punching through something like kevlar (designed to spread the impact of a bullet). The softer surroundings serve two purposes: it may decrease total weight lessening the
nead for a greater (and noisier) explosion, and smashing into a non-armoured body shattering bones and severing arteries instead of penetrating straight through like the core
would.
Anthony January 10th, 2004, 03:55 PM

So, Jackhammer, you have reinvented a standard Armour Piercing round with a steel/tungsten/DU etc penetrator?
keith January 10th, 2004, 04:53 PM

Are you talking sniper weapon system or a close combat system like the Hkmp5?
For sniper weapon systems one could have a round like that of which is shot out of the 50BMG for penetrating heavy armored vehicles. The projectile would be subsonic and
very big(about 900grains) and with a supressor, would be silent to anyone further than 40 yards away from it and nothing but a small slap sound to anyone within 40 yards.
Once the bullet has reached its target and impacts it, an explosive charge initiates and propells a smaller tungsten core @ about 5000 feet per second destroying the target. The
sound made from the projectiles HE initiation doesn't matter to the sniper as it is heard several hundred meters away from his location.file://localhost/Users/keith2/Desktop/
50CATSShot1.jpg
I think he wants a close combat weapon though....
For a close combat weapon(I'll use a HkMp5 for an example weapon) I dont think there is any way around it. Your still just throwing a small peaice of metal going very slow.
The only way I see is to totaly use a different concept of firearm like a coil gun or a pnuematic weapon system but I dont think this what your talking about. Shooting heavy
bullets(600-1000grains) even at slow speeds will give alot of recoil even with a good muzzle break so a combat sub-machine gun would be out of the question unless you were
limited to double or maybe triple shot bursts.
Hitting a target in the kevlar vest with a 800 grain bullet going 900 feet per second would be similar to getting hit by a basball bat....
For more target damage you want more energy in foot pounds to hit your target, use this formula for determining bullet energy. Formula - Bullet weight (grains) x velocity
(feet per second) squared 450240 (constant)
gliper January 11th, 2004, 12:05 AM

keith mentioned a hevy bullet but whent on and dident realy mention this just useing a realy heavy bullet at just below the speed of sound is probabaly the easyest cheepest
way to go, for a given speed energy is a linier function of mass 2x mass = 2x energy.
One other way to go is to shoot a delaied rocket, so it gains speed later and sounds competely different.
zyk43 January 12th, 2004, 05:55 PM

I know you can get exotic steel cored projectiles (which sound like what you are describing here) however these are stopped by modern ballistic materials like Dyneema in a
IIIA level vest. I think the projectile is called Tokarev or something
A-BOMB January 12th, 2004, 09:39 PM

You know the russians made a bunch of silencer less pistols that were quite by using a special shell with think steel walls and a piston would fire the bullet out when the shell
was fired end of the piston would expand sealing the gases behind it, the piston would then shoot forward and propell the bullet while keeping the gases seald in the shell.

So, Jackhammer, you have reinvented a standard Armour Piercing round with a steel/tungsten/DU etc penetrator? Basically, yes. Some differences are 1: the standard tungsten
carbide armor piercing round is a tungsten carbide TIPPED round, and 2: this round often over penetrates. I would use the tungsten carbide as a pointed core, but surround it
with materials like bronze, brass, lead, synthetic polymers, even glass. Most of these materials could not pierce any armor, but they would cause devestation in the body of a
armorlessperson. That would enable this round to both penetrate armor and still be highly lethal to non-armor.
PHAID January 13th, 2004, 07:54 PM

That majority of all Armor piercing rounds have the penetrator inside the case.
The SS109 round the military uses has a tungsten penetrator.
Here is a link to a site that shows the basic construction of common bullet types.
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/bullets-e.htm
Back to the title of this thread this may be of some interest.

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

That majority of all Armor piercing rounds have the penetrator inside the case. True enough. The point is not the penetrator, it is the combination of composite soft metals and
materials combined with the penetrator enabling a definite kill shot even at subsonic speeds.
PHAID January 14th, 2004, 08:27 AM

The military doesnt want killing shots, they prefer severe wounding as it costs the enemy more in manpower as well as destroying morale.
Narkar January 14th, 2004, 04:24 PM

Can the military use that? They can only use the FMJ but are they allowed to use hardened core bullets?
NickSG January 14th, 2004, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by PHAID
The military doesnt want killing shots, they prefer severe wounding as it costs the enemy more in manpower as well as destroying morale.
Actually, they want kills. A man with a bullet in his leg will shoot back. A dead guy wont. As far as I know, neither WWII, Korean, Vietnam, nor Desert Storm used this strategy.
There isnt anything stating that this was the stretegy. Besides, why are all soliders and snipers trained to aim for the chest and head?
BTW why was keith banned?
xyz January 14th, 2004, 11:46 PM

NickSG, the army does aim for "casualties" not kills. They want to wound the target badly enough that they can't shoot back but they don't want to kill him. Snipers are an
exception because they are usually given targets of more importance than the average infantry soldier (eg. officers etc.).
The reason for this is that if a squad member is hit in the head, he is killed instantly and you now have one person unable to fight. If he received a 5.56mm wound to the chest
area, it would take 2 to 4 more soldiers to carry him to safety as well as the rest of the squad being demoralized by his gurgling screams. This makes the wounded soldier, plus
the ones that carry him, unable to fight as well as demoralizing the rest of his squad.
The desire for casualties instead of kills is one of the reasons for modern assault rifles being chambered in 5.56mm or 5.45mm instead of more powerful cartridges such as
7.62mm, .308, or .30-06. Note that sniper rifles, for use in situations where kills are desired, are chambered in these more powerful cartridges.
And keith was banned for being a faggamuffin in general and saying stupid things.
NickSG January 15th, 2004, 06:14 PM

The .223 is by no means a weak round. Heres (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/75tap.jpg) a picture of a 75 grain TAP round shot into ballistic gellatin. Notice the large
permanant cavity and the fragments. Heres (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/m193frag.jpg) another picture of a .223 (M193 ball). The one on the right was the one
recovered from ballistic gelatin. Over 150 fragments were recovered.
The reason the US uses .223 is becuase it is smaller, lighter (210 rounds compared to 100), easier to control during FA fire, and uses up less resources to make. And as far as I
know, there are no official sources confirming that technique was used in any war the US fought in. This strategy might be a personal thing, but I sure as hell wouldnt use this
technique, nor would I be around anyone that plans on doing so.
PHAID January 15th, 2004, 08:18 PM

You are trained to shoot to kill in the military but the systems are made to produce causulties.
Most landmines will only bloy your foot or leg off, the rounds you fire will only kill if you get a direct hit on a vital organ.
As for why we were trained to shoot at the chest is simple, It is the BIGGEST target.
About any shooting training you recieve will instruct you to shoot center mass, All that shooting in the arm, leg, head that hollywood shows is BS.
If you get nailed in one of those areas in battle it was by pure chance not that they aimed for it.
No it isnt military policy to shoot to maim ( That isnt politicly correct ) but they did realise it was an added bonus that reduced your enemies ability to fight on 3 levels.
You get one man down from the wound.
You tie up a few to care for them
You kill the morale of the men around him.
XYZ has it correct in his answer and NickSG you are correct that they went to the 5.56mm due to the weight and increase of ammo that can be carried in a battleload.
Narkar the military is restricted to FMJ rounds but can use "penetrators" .
They design the rounds to be unstable enough that contact with the target will cause them to tumble causing damage like a hollowpoint or softpoint round.
zaibatsu January 16th, 2004, 10:46 PM

The US military aren't restricted to FMJ as I understand, why would you think that?
Anthony January 17th, 2004, 07:45 AM

Isn't FMJ the only ammunition allowed for use in warfare by the Geneva Convention?
zaibatsu January 17th, 2004, 08:19 AM

Sort of. So I read, the bit about "projectiles designed to cause injury" was an add on to the original convention, and the US never signed this updated version. Therefore they
could still use JHP or whatever, but I think it's just a technical thing and they still use FMJ in war for politics' sake. However, if they are fighting non-combatants, even if they
had signed up to the updated Geneva convention, they could use whatever ammunition they wanted.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Reloading 26.5mm
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A-BOMB January 20th, 2004, 10:00 AM

I just bought a 26.5mm HK M78 flare gun and a bunch of ?czech? smoke flares, I fired one and removed the primer and measured it. Its .257" across and about .14" tall its a
boxer primer I cant seem to find a US standard primer that would fit. So since its from Europe I was wondering if some of our European members can help me find some
primers for these cases so I can reload the cases, thanks. Damn! some of these flares have some major recoil.
Wes80 January 20th, 2004, 06:23 PM

Cant help with what you have asked for, but .257" is the diametre of most .25cal bullets, therefore if you cant aquire the real thing, ream out a .25cal bullet and use the jacket
as a sheath by drilling the lead to fit a standard sized boxer primer. you could also use full copper bullets for strength (such as barnes X).
Third_Rail January 21st, 2004, 12:08 PM

I've tried to reload "Czech" flares as well, but I'm still questioning where they're really from. I noticed, however, that the flares are the same size as 4 gauge shotgun shells,
aren't they? Hm. Anyway, I couldn't get anything to work properly, I don't believe the flares were ever intended to reload.
Oh, and could you tell me, if you're from the US, who you got the flare pistol off of and for how much? I'd like to see if I got ripped off in terms of price.
zippoxiv January 26th, 2004, 11:30 AM

The US price I see for the HK 26.5mm flare gun is about $45 at most any gun show, $35 for a box of 10 rounds. I have also experimented with reloaded the flare cartridges
with minimal success. Even a large rifle primer is too small, and a standard 209 shotgun primer is too deep. If you drill through the bottom of the primer pocket, you can use
the very popular and plentiful 209 shotgun primer to reload. I am not a huge fan of altering the cartridge although unless there is some other plentiful primer type to reload
with 209 seems to be the best bet.
The reason I said I am having minimal success is because even with the 209 shotgun primer, it seems that the maximum distance and kick are less than the factory rounds. I
have been using shot shell reloading powder (green dot double base smokeless powder to be exact) in my reloads. After taking apart one of the red flares, the powder charge
weighed in at 1.18 grams. Replicating this in my own reloads still results in an underpowered charge; it seems that with the reloads all the powder does not burn before the
projectile leaves the barrel. This is obvious when I fire the flare over a snowy field the shot shell powder can be seen unburned and speckled across the snow. If you have any
idea as to the culprit of my underpowered loads (ha-ha, yeah immature humor) I would be interested to hear your opinions. Insufficient pressure, wrong weight projectile, etc
all come to mind.
Third_Rail, what type of reloads are you dong? What size powder charge, payload, etc. I have tried quarters to some success. One inch PVC tubing persuaded with a lighter to
fit into the 25mm interior provides a tight fit as well. Regardless, I am still unable to mimic the distance or kick of the factory loads.
Third_Rail January 26th, 2004, 11:42 AM

When I couldn't find the correct primer size, I decided it was best not to fool with them.
A-BOMB January 26th, 2004, 11:50 AM

I have modified all of my shell to fit a #57 shotshell primer (you won't find this type in stores, its a old type) I had the guy at the local machine shop make me a drill that drill
out the primer pocket, and the outside edge so the rim of the primer fits in, The original primer are better but, shotshell primers will do if you have semi-tight fitting projectile
the powder has to have enough time to burn before the projectile exits the case, Thats why there is so much packing between the flare and the end of the case. And if you
want cheap flare guns check out tapco every once and awhile they had some czech/russian flare guns for $15 a while back.
TreverSlyFox January 26th, 2004, 08:48 PM

Zippoxiv,
The powder your using is too slow burning, that's why the residue of unburned powder and the lack of range and recoil. Check the web and see where Green Dot rates and
pick a powder about 2 steps faster in burning rate.
With the new powder cut back on the charge 10-15% and "work up" to the ammount your using now just to be on the safe side. If you get to that same ammount and it still
doesn't have the range step up another 1 or 2 burning rates and again back off the charge 10-15%.

Don't use smokeless, the powder I got out of the factory rounds was like a mix of small and large grain black powder, black powder is better for large rounds like this.
zippoxiv January 27th, 2004, 04:11 PM

Thanks for your thoughts on the issue. It appears that drilling out the primer pocket to accept a #209 shot shell primer may be the reason that the powder is not burning. After
looking into regular shot shell reloading it appears that, the type of primer and size of the flash hole both control how much pressure is exerted by the primer itself. Even
varying different brands of shot shell primers can cause a difference. After comparing the distance traveled when fired at a 45-degree angle between a round with 1 gram of
DBSP and one with simply a primer, the difference is negligible. (About 100 ft for each)
One solution to the primer issue that I have not had the chance to experiment with yet is filling the primer pocket with JB Weld (a cold weld epoxy, google it to find more) and
then drill out a new primer pocket to fit a standard rifle or pistol primer. This would both reduce the pressure created by the primer, and reduce the size of the flash hole
hopefully encouraging ignition of the powder. There is also concern when reloading 37 mm casings that only a small rifle or pistol primer should be used as the primers for shot
shells are not soft enough to ensure initiation by the relatively week firing pin spring of the flare gun. This is a concern, although after inspecting the spent primers from over a
dozen reloads there does not appear to be any sign of significantly shallow primer dents.
A-Bomb, I did notice that the powder inside the factory loads was not of any spherical, tubular, or flake smokeless powder I had seen before. I will pick up a can of pyrodex
along with some new primers. Is it ok to use a black powder substitute such as pyrodex? Also, by the way, what loads are you reloading with; inert projectiles, flare comp,
smoke comp? I was just curious.
TreverSlyFox, being that the flares appear to be basically a large gage shot shell, I assumed Green Dot would be the powder to go for. If done carefully I dont see how
it can hurt to try out a different powder along with black powder substitutes. Maybe Mr. Kaczynski chose the powder of choice when he went with Red Dot.
It seems that there are quite a few variables to test, once I have a chance to get some more supplies and some time I'll go through and try to isolate the issue. It is also
possible that the weight of the projectile has an effect. A higher weight projectile produces higher pressure levels before exiting the barrel

Again don't use smokeless powder is a waste in flares like this, if you take a gram of black powder and a gram of DBSP and then light each pile you will see that the black
powder burns quicker, that is what you want larger shells need a slow burning powder, and then you say in your example the BP burns faster and it always will uncofined,
confine DBSP and it burns faster like in a 12gauge shell were there is a wad and shot, and crimp to hold the shell together till the powder gets pretty much burnt, with larger
shells you need a slower burning when confined powder, Black powder. And using a rifle primer would give you less flame, than a shotshell, and also I found this if you drill out
the primer pocket and put in a shotshell primer the end of the primer is a little bit from the bottom of the case so when you put in powder some of the powder is behind the
end of the primer and that powder may not get ignited before the projectile exits the casing.
Third_Rail January 27th, 2004, 07:14 PM
With ideas like these, perhaps its time for me to dig out my used flares, I knew there was a good reason for saving them! ...especially at $3 a shot.

I visited a marine supply place the other day, and casually enquired about a few things, including the distress flares. Turns out you can buy these flares without a license or
anything in the UK. I might be buying a few some time soon. :)
Bigfoot January 28th, 2004, 05:40 PM

Be careful with the epoxy solution. I tried just that, drilled my flash hole too small. First primer blew out 1/3 of the epoxy. I wound up just turning some stainless hulls on a
lathe. However, exopy in a plug of aluminum, then drill appropritely, that may work better.
Edit:clarify grammar
zippoxiv February 22nd, 2004, 03:52 PM

Finally got around to trying Pyrodex RS powder (FFG equivalent) along with CCI #209 shotgun primers and it works like a charm. The lack of kick was related to the weight of
the projectile, although the report is much louder now and no unburned powder. It seems that drilling out the primer pocket to take a #209 shotgun primer is the best way to
go. It does appear that the primer pocket is the right size to take a primer from the 7.62 x 54 R Russian round, although most are Berdian primed and finding primers is a
hassle regardless.
MP5Guy February 25th, 2004, 04:41 AM

http://www.dansammo.com/ammo.asp
Look under the AMMO Section. Dan's stuff is First Class as is Dan...
MP
jojo7 February 27th, 2004, 03:01 AM

an easier and cheaper way to go(what I did) is to buy a 6" long 3/4 inch steel pipe nipple from a hardware store, use a stone grinder with some gloves on and make it just a
little smaller or just make one end a little smaller then jam this down your barrel and hammer it down all the way and you have converted the gun to a heavy duty 12 guage
flare laucher, it would probably shoot regular buckshot if you could rig a folding or non folding stock and a front handle on it but otherwise if you want lethal but not try starting
small with the gun powder and work your way up, you dont want the gun to fly up and hit you in the head from the recoil. Just sharing another option, in case you want to..

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Homeload tests.
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Dave the Rave March 3rd, 2004, 04:44 PM

Ive been doing some research on the field of homemade loads and here are some pics of my shots. Its are all from .380 - from an taurus millenium.
The first, letf, is from a homemade load, called glasser. Its an coper jacket, filled with 00 buckshot and wax. The jacket is full metal. The projectile weigths 90 grains.
The penetration is regular and te expansion phase is realy violent, with an huge exit hole.
The second, left is from an holow point, also homemade from an regular FMJ files down and then holowed. It weigths 125 grains
The penetration is fine, the expansion is nice at its initial phase, with total fragmentation of the lead and an beautifull flower pattern of the final projectile.
The 3th and 4th, left are control shots, with comercial bullets and regular powder charges, all with 125 grains and 6 grains of 1200 rex
The second image is from the exit hole of the glasser shot.
Now, glasser with 90 grains on the projectile and 6 grains of 1200 REX
Holow with 125 grains on the bullet and 6 grains of 1200 REX
Comercial ammo (FMJ), 125 grains and 6 grains of 1200 REX
The "balistic gelatin" is made of soap bars, and the pictures where taken from the back of the shots, entry hole, expansion phase and exit hole (top to bottom).
From there I can found that, even being ligther, the glasser shot is more destructive, but can easily be stoped by an bulletproof vest.
I was thinking that, if my magazine can hold 15 shots, I could load it with 4 HP, 8 glasser and 3 FMJ, to overcome the eventuality of an bulletproof vest.
What are your comments ?
zaibatsu March 3rd, 2004, 09:04 PM

I'd be very careful with filing FMJs, because they're not TMJ the lead core may blow out of the filed section, leaving an obstruction in the bore of your firearm. Which is why I'm
interested in how easy it would be to swage weakenesses into the jacket of a FMJ bullet, for people who live in countries where expanding ammunition is heavily restricted.
I don't have experience in firing at people, but I'd rather hit them and leave a hole (albeit clean) first, and then follow up with other shots, than work on the chance they're not
wearing any armour and just piss them off. Plus whether you'll get off 15 shots at one person is debatable. More interesting would be a mag loading with the french (?) bullet,
the name of which escapes me at the moment, it's the the extremely pointed one.
A center of mass shot even with a FMJ is going to do some damage.
EDIT: A hardened steel jig could make it very easy to consistently file FMJ/TMJs to the same height.
MP5Guy March 4th, 2004, 03:31 PM

Just what is the fellow wearing the Body Armor doing after he is hit with your first round?
What Level of Body Armor are you wearing at this time and what are you going to do when you are hit by his first round?
Have you ever been shot at?
Are you on medication?
MP

Zaibatsu, I know that the FMJ can slip from the coper jacket, but the idea is file just enough to expose the lead, so we can make the hollow.
At my Country we cant purchase HP ammo, so, we need to make our own. The weird point is that it cant be legaly purchased, but if you have this kind of bullet at your
weapon, and shoot someone with it, the cops cant ad nothing to your penalty, as its use isnt forbidden...
About shoot people, sometimes we are forced to do it, and maybe many people at once... The idea is to have an good combination of stoping power, fragmentation and
penetration. As we cant use weapons with calibers superior to the .380, we dont have much power at hand.
MP5, due to the high level of criminality at my Country, level III balistic vests are commomplace around here. The drug dealers and bank robbers use even military vests, and
they have the nasty habit of wear it all the time.
The idea is that the first or second shoots over the vest be enough to disable the agressors, but no one knows when will be necessary to shoot again or to shoot someone else.
Of course I dont want to engage on one gunfigth, as I dont use bodyarmor, but I cant foresee when it could happen.
Ive been shot tree times in my life, one time when my mother, who was an federal judge, drove her car away of an ambush. The shot hit me at my rigth side, as it bounced
inside the door, and today its at my armpit. Its one 7,65 mm, huge bullet, but low power ammo.
The second time was at school, someone was jealous about one girlfriend I had and simply draw an gun to me, shooting me tree bullets before some friends knock him down.
One bullet hit my chest, passing through my rib and missing my lung for one inch, the 2nd bullet hit my diaphragm on an direct shot. The 3rd shot hit me when I was falling,
and its found my shoulder, breaking my bone. It was an .32 calliber revolver.
The 3rd time was on army. I was an Lt, and some day 4 FN FALs where stolen from our armorial. We discover that one soldier sell it to some bandidos who where on the
"favela" (many poor constructed houses, build at hillsides, and an traditional hideout to drug dealers and such, which are too dangerous to policial forces as its practicaly an
maze of narrow street and dead ends).
We went to the "favela" and were received with firepower enough to stop an batalion. An caporal was hit by automatic fire and was killed, and I and another soldier try to run
to cover. I was hit by .308 shots from one of our guns, which broke my leg, hit my hip and found my back the most desirable spot to lay some small pieces of lead. Now I
have some bullets all over my body, as the medics found that isnt necessary to remove it.
And yes, Im over medication all the time, "gardenal" an anti- spasmodic, because of the shoots at my back mess with my local nerves, "berotec", an bronco - dilatator, as
one of my lungs was permanently damaged by the .308 and some analgesics to figth the pain of my wounds.
And you think that living in Brazil was an easy task. Ask Guerrero, Sarevok or Lameiras about what Im talking about.

Have you thought about making your own cast bullets Dave? You could then have a HP bullet, and then copper plate it for a TMJ effect. Some bullet manufacturers seem to be
adding a plastic ball to the HP cavity, you could try experimenting with that, I'm sure industrial manufacturers would provice a "sample" ;)
NickSG March 4th, 2004, 08:24 PM

You could also try reloading your bullets backwards. I know of several ammunition manufacterers that do this, along some good friends. Since the base of the bullet is flat (for
most FMJ and TMJ bullets), it will give the bullet a wadcutter shape, cutting a full caliber hole in tissue. You might even get some expansion out of backward loaded hollow
base bullet?
Anyway, this should only be done in revolvers. BTW a .38 special wadcutter will cut a larger hole than a .45ACP FMJ. Pretty good huh?
FYI CCI/Speers Blazer bullets are all TMJ. The cases are aluminum so they are pretty cheap, but they cannot be reloaded.
MP5Guy March 5th, 2004, 04:55 PM

As I know it hurts from a little skirmish I had the honor of participating in in 1968 in Southeast Aisa. I also apoligize for my curt response to you and now see how lucky I am to
live in the US where we can have the right to defend ourselves as we see fit.
Dave I am a Licensed Manufacturer of Machineguns and Suppressors and I sell quite a few Ballistic Vests to Law Enforcement. Their Turn-In's I use for demonstrations on why
Vests should be replaced Bi-Annually. In other words I shoot at alot of used vests to prove a point.
My point in my post is just about anyone shot wearing a vest is going to go down from the initial impact if not alone from the shock of being hit so a follow up shot in the same
area of the vest is generally out of the question altogether just for informational purposes.
You Take Care Dave,
MP

NickSG, Your idea of wadcutters is very nice. I tried some shots, again with my .380 and I foud that the main problem is the forcing cone, on the back of the barrel. Aparently
the surface of the bullet tends to scraps itself on the cone, but only one or two of 10 shots have this problem and it dont troubles the final result.
To overcome this problem, I simply do a little filing & polishing on the copper of the back of the bullet and it works fine. from what I found, the now round back of the bullet
(was the tip) allows an better flow of the gases through the crown of the barrel, which keeps an better precision rate.
The wadcutter point (was the back) realy opens an huge entering hole, and expands prety well, specialy when partialy hollowed, doing an massive wound when exits the
target.
I take some pictures to post, its on the developing laboratory and I should catch it by friday, then I scan and put on the Forum.
About foreing ammunition producers, my Country dont alow importation or comercialization of ammunition manufactured out of here. Only plain "Companhia Brasileira de
Cartuchos" and such can be purchased around here, the others being smugled through the borders, specialy Paraguay and Argentina or received by mail.
Our Senate is even doing some laws to give serial number to each bullet produced around here.
MP5, that was my point, one person shot when using Bullet Proof Vests can be disabled by the shock, but as you know, some bigger persons can handle better the shock, and
even regular people can recover a lot quicker, specialy when on drugs like coke and crack.
As I cant get caugth using 9mm or .45, I need something that can bypass the BPV or do some massive damage on targets without the BPV, hence the tests.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > kitchen sink reloading
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U.S.M.C-Man March 7th, 2004, 02:17 PM

I am not sure if this is the right section for this post, if so please fill free to move it to its proper place.
You can reuse a primer, here is how (as taught in the book Homade Guns & Homade Ammo) :
1. Push out/remove primer with a small nail.

2. Carefully remove the anvil from the primer cup (do not lose this 'the anvil' ! ).
3. With the head of a nail (useing a hamer) reflaten the primer cup where (the dent) the fireing pin hit.
4. Carefuly remove the white or blue part (at the tip) of a strike anywere match, then powderize (if you are not carefull it can strike the match) it then pack it in the primer
cup "tight" till it is half full and will not fall out if up-side-down.
5. Replace the anvil into the primer cup.
6. Push back into the brass (the caseing).
you are done (these work like a charm)
If you pack it tight (untill it can be hung up-side-down and lightly taped without falling out) it will hold. Beleive me! I have done it many times and it works like a charm.
Give it a shot you may be suprised how well it works.
You can also powderize the red part or kitchen matches for gun powder/the main charge (of corse this is not as powerful as real smokeless powder, but is pretty powerful).
Here is the number of matchheads that should be used for gunpowder per caliber (as seen in U.S. Army Manual TM 31-210 and the book Homade Guns & Homade Ammo) .
Caliber number of heads

------------------------------------------------------------------
Rifle Calibers
------------------------------------------------------------------
.22 Hornet 13
.222 Rem. 26
.223 Rem. 39
.243 Win. 61
.30 Carbine 16
.30-30 Win. 45
.308 Win. 58
.30-06 74
.375 H&R Mag. 87
.44 Mag. 32
.45-70 Govt. 76
.458 Win. 79
------------------------------------------------------------------ Pistol Calibers
------------------------------------------------------------------
9mm Parabellum 8
.38 Special 15
.357 Mag. 26
.45 ACP 27
------------------------------------------------------------------ Shotgun Caliber/Guage
------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Ga. 33
16 Ga. 30
20 Ga. 27
.410 Bore 19
The point is to show how you can make somewhat efective munitions with conscript materials at desprit times (if you do not have the balls to try it, thats fine at least try the
primer without any powder). Since this does not create as much power or PSI's (Presure Per Square Inch) as regular ammo it is pretty safe. Once again this is not as efective as
regular ammo.
- U.S.M.C-Man
irish March 8th, 2004, 04:02 AM

PSI is pounds per square Inch, also if you do try match heads (that just sounds so kewwl :o ) you will find if you don't clean your gun very soon after it will corrode the barrel
very fast. It's not something I would like to try but I suppose if someone had no ammo or components it may work (of a sort).
U.S.M.C-Man March 8th, 2004, 08:51 AM

PSI is pounds per square Inch, also if you do try match heads (that just sounds so kewwl :o ) you will find if you don't clean your gun very soon after it will corrode the barrel
very fast. It's not something I would like to try but I suppose if someone had no ammo or components it may work (of a sort).
Oh yes, I did forget to say that it is a currosive powder and your gun should be cleand after.
- U.S.M.C-Man
S/SGT Joe June 4th, 2004, 09:54 AM

Powdered cellulose from ping-pong balls is non-corrosive and makes an
interesting propellant base.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Mercury bullets?
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A-BOMB November 24th, 2004, 05:05 PM

As I have stated before I came into posession of a bunch of mercury. And I got to thinking what if I took a standard FMJ bullet
or hollow point and heated it so the lead came out and left a copper jacket. And then filled it with mercury, and then sealed it.
I was thinking it would have an effect like a glosser safety round, when hitting the target it would rupture and expand causing
more energy to be transfered to the target, and the mercury would be poisous as well. And the jacket of the bullet would be
pretty much destroyed, and you cant get a ballistics match off of a pile of mercury. What do you guys think? Would the liquid
mercury cause the bullet to have no accuracy?
festergrump November 24th, 2004, 05:45 PM

I've heard of tipping hollowpoints with mercury before.
Melting out all the lead and filling the jacket up with mercury sounds like not only a really BAD idea but time consuming, too,
even if it worked. The copper jacketing is so thin your bullet would not retain any shape when fired and you'd more than likely
be spraying precious mercury out the muzzle with every shot and fouling your barrel bore with ripped pieces of jacket.
I would definitely be more inclined to fill a factory hollow point 3/4 full with mercury then top it off with superglue or hot melt
glue. You might even drop a .177 BB on top of the mercury and glue it there for extra mushrooming effect. (the mercury will
kill them sure as shit, but a nice expanding round in the guts will neutralize them until the real payload hits the heart via the
bloodstream). :D
[Edit: I take no credit for the BB idea. It's been around a long time and IIRC has been posted here before on another
thread.]
Third_Rail November 24th, 2004, 10:04 PM

Mercury won't add much effect to a standard JHP, although it will dissolve some of the lead.
Just aim and make your shots count, don't waste mercury.
Flake2m November 25th, 2004, 01:22 AM

I read something about mercury tipped bullets when I read "The Day of the Jackal" by fredrick Forsyth.
Now I know its a novel, but the book discribed Mercury tipped bullets. Mention that a hole had been drilled into a standard
bullet (so its hollowpoint) then a drop of mercury was put in the hole, which was then sealed with lead. It then went on to
explain that they worked very well, because of the difference in density between lead and mecury and basically shattered when
there was a major velocity change (such as a headshot).
The theory sounds quite plausible and sound, however the only way to find out would be to test the theory.
mixojoe November 25th, 2004, 07:43 AM

Yeah i saw the technique on an old B-grade movie many years ago also
nuclearattack November 25th, 2004, 10:26 AM

I think mercury will expand in the target's body causing a very large damage on soft targets of course, to take advantage of
mercury bullets i imagine that you should use a very fast ammo/gun like a sniper gun or the mercury will be stopped quickly.
This kind of bullet should works perfectly in a gauss gun because mercury is not diamagnetic. Imagine a plastic hollow bullet
filled with mercury, the huge magnetic field will speed up the bullet acting on the inner mercury, the effect on a soft target is
easy to imagine!
I'm just building a new gauss gun and now i'm looking for a good SCR at a good price...it should be very interesting to make
some tests with mercury bullets.
Where i can find mercury? It shouldn't be easy to buy because it's poisonous.
Please don't tell me about thermometers! Too much expensive!
tmp November 25th, 2004, 02:35 PM

If you use a lot of Hg in the bullet, the propellant in the round will have
be to reduced. The additional weight created by the denser Hg could
produce dangerous pressures in the action and barrel. If you reload
your own ammo, this should'nt be a problem because you'll have the
projectile weight in grains.
Third_Rail November 25th, 2004, 11:47 PM

And it still won't be accurate. The twist rate in most barrels WILL NOT stabilize a bullet filled with mercury.
And like I said, mercury dissolves lead. Don't believe me? Test it out.
I personally use mercury to remove lead fouling from barrels now and then.
Psychlonic November 26th, 2004, 01:41 AM

I think a safer and cheaper alternative would be to just place a round, steel ball inside of a JHP and seal it. This way the ball
would be pushed forward upon impact through something like, oh, Kevlar. You could also try placing three or four smaller ones
into the tip. It may produce better effects, or it may not, depending on the caliber and ammount of propellant.
I'm assuming we're talking about .44 and weaker ammo here.

I'm sure I already posted on this thread... weird.
Anyway, to type it all again:-
Mercury will form an amalgam with lead, after a while. This stops it being liquid, and so the effect you want is lost.
Mercury is very nasty, so don't go breathing it's fumes. It is very heavy, too, but I doubt that stabilisation will be too hard.
The harder jacket of 90/10 brass will take the strain of the mercury through the rifling rotation, I think. They certainly seem
tough as hell, but try it out first.
You will have fun getting the void totally filled and then sealed, which you need to do so that an air bubble doesn't ruin any
chance at accuracy. Mercury will run to the outside as it is spun, and so effects on the point of impact are to be expected. The
way around this is to leave no air gap.
I think I wrote some other stuff, but I forget...
Sarevok November 28th, 2004, 08:30 AM

US 5,763,819 has information on armor piercing fragmenting bullets, including details on the composition of alloys that are
suitable for the crafting of those bullets. One of the constituents of the alloys is mercury. Check NBK's pdf pages 62-77.
jackhammer November 28th, 2004, 01:56 PM

I don't know or pretend to know a lot about chemistry, but I do know a lot about guns (a lot of experience in the military and
my current job as a trainer). I have to say that I agree with third_rail:
Just aim and make your shots count, don't waste mercury.
I don't know how fast mercury kills, but I don't imagine someone shot with a mercury filled bullet will die fast enough to make
it a silent kill, if that's what you're hoping for, or to ensure they won't shoot back. A double tap with a .45 (or .357 if you like a
lot of power) to vital areas will do the trick. And if you really want to make sure they go down with the first shot, use a .44,
454, .50AE, or .500 S&W. Just make sure you don't break your wrist! :)

jackhammer,
the idea is that the mercury "fragments" more easily than the lead, and the shots kill in the same way. The slow mercury
poisoning would just be handy if you managed *not* to kill them - but you would be looking at the chair for it, if you got
caught. Slowly poisoning someone is far worse to the jury than simple shooting.
jackhammer November 29th, 2004, 02:57 PM

the idea is that the mercury "fragments" more easily than the lead
As I said, I'm no chemist. However, I do find it hard to believe that the mercury fragments vs. lead fragments would make so
much of a difference as to be worth the time and effort it takes to modify any number of cartridges. I suppose it might make
a more lethal .22, which are generally fired by cheaper guns than say, a .45, and are also subsonic (making them easier to
silence, as you would only need to suppress the explosion, not the sonic crack). This might be worth it for a public killing where
the object is to make sure your target dies without drawing attention to the origin of the bullet (you). Even if the shot did not
kill, the posion might. I find little else in the usefulness of this idea, especially in a combat situation. If you could manage to
quickly produce large numbers of say, 5.56 (.223) NATO rounds with mercury, and also manage to prevent the rounds from
fouling your gun, this idea might work. Because I don't know enough about mercury, and have never test fired a mercury
round, I can't combare the stopping power of a mercury round vs. lead, steel, tungsten carbide, or any other round.

The whole point about the Mercury is that it is liquid, and so you can't pull fragments out with a pair of tweezers, and there will
be many, many more fragments, which are also lethally toxic.
You wouldn't want the mercury filling in a bullet like a .223, since they already destroy themselves on impact (or go right
through without expanding, but simply turning over once to go base first) and they are very fast spinners doing Mach 2.
You use the mercury idea in a very slow bullet, so that it still expands horrifically on impact, even at extended ranges.
You don't need to be a chemist, only to know that Mercury is heavier than lead, yet liquid at room temperatures, and toxic.
You could easily use a different lethal toxic substance, but they would be far lighter, reducing the effect of the initial shot.
A2675770 December 8th, 2004, 12:24 AM

Mercury expands when heated, very hot expanding gases from the propelant, could cause the bullet to deform into a projectile
with unevenmass and density, which could cause the projectile to be less accurate.
I'm not exactly sure of the outcome, but what about darts? It would be much easier to fill a dart with mercury then to remove
the lead from a bullet and still face the problem of, as Jack's complete has said, forming a amalgam.
It depends mostly on range and velocity, just a suggestion..
FUTI December 8th, 2004, 03:30 PM

Only few post make this post worth of reading IMHO A-BOMB.
Mercury is to much cost by the bullet, as you read in the posts bellow steel ball(s) can make same kind of blasting dispersal
effect as mercury. The gauss gun as a special type could make use of it. Mercury also quickly solidify in any alloy with metal
(as I remember with Na it takes about 4% to make it solid) which reduce the effect you want.
Mercury alloy can melt on impact with target but the lead based alloy can too, so what is the purpose? Is the main goal to
make an ammo with altered balistic properties or to deliver toxic payload? In the first case you are on wrong tracks since it can
be made through different means, in the second case that poison is so slow acting that unless completely uninformed and
without means to find an entry point (which in case of .220 only blind man can do) a low-grade-shit of a medic can cure (in not
so many words find stronger fast acting poison to bust the ammo). In my oppinion you tried to combine two oposed strategy
but you missed. In the case of changing balistic properties you waste a fortune, and in toxic "candy" you are being so cheap:)
No hard feeling I hope. Keep that spirit.
festergrump December 8th, 2004, 05:55 PM

Futi,
If I am not reading your post wrong you seem to be speaking rather condecendingly towards A-Bomb. I gathered that he
simply has ALOT of mercury on his hands and thought he'd open for discussion this avenue of use. Sorry only few of the posts
in this thread were worthy of your eyes...
Only few post make this post worth of reading IMHO A-BOMB. [SNIP!]
No hard feeling I hope. Keep that spirit.
Why don't you go ahead and call him "Boy" like he's a preteen or something? :rolleyes: The rest of us will try to do better.

Doesn't matter anyways, as A-Bomb is no longer amoung us, having fucked up on another matter.
xyz December 9th, 2004, 06:52 AM

One thing that I think nobody has considered yet. I forget the name of the effect, but when you have a solid (sperical or
cylindrical works best) container filled with liquid and you spin it, the container spins and the liquid stays put, it takes a
considerable amount of time for friction to get the liquid up to the same speed as the container, if this ever happens at all.
So the jacket would spin, but the core would stay put. I don't know enough about ballistics to say for certain, but I think this
would totally wreck accuracy, as the jacket would be spinning way too fast and the mercury core would hardly be spinning at all.
FUTI December 9th, 2004, 06:54 AM

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh...
I just wanted to point the men in right direction. I didn't want to insult anyone. This is a debate and it is normal to confront the
ideas. Others did to but I agree they were more understanding then me. They give their opinion and try to direct the mens
effort through actual advice. Maybe the lenght of the thread and amount of reading made me nervous.

xyz,
interesting point! So the effective spin on the bullet would be very much slower than the speed of the jacket - almost like it
was with a far lighter twist. So it would seem to have a lower inertia.
Increasing the twist rate of the bullet would do little, either, and given the rate of spin (around 28000 rotations per second for
a .30-06, faster [almost twice the rate] for a .223) there would be little point. I think you would get interesting frictional
heating issues, too.
I'm quite sure it could be done, but you would need a glass or plastic liner, or something else which would stop the mercury
reacting.
xyz December 9th, 2004, 08:02 PM

An idea that just came to mind (while thinking about the "honeycomb" structure inside acetylene tanks beleive it or not) to
overcome the spinning problem would be to divide the core into lots of tiny "pockets" instead of one large hollow space.
Basically anything that splits the mercury up into many little sections that are heavily restricted (if not totally prevented) from
intermingling.
FUTI December 10th, 2004, 11:55 AM

I had an impresion that Psychlonic had something similar in mind to what xyz mentioned, sugesting the use of steel balls
(several of different diameter). If you do not believe me try physics problem moment of inertia of whole aluminium cylinder
and can of beans of the same weight and dimensions. This would change bullet balistic properties and can be solution of the
first problem A-bomb started.
Lurking_Shadows December 17th, 2004, 02:44 AM

When I was younger I ripped apart some batteries with mercury in them.
I used to hunt squirrels with hollow point .22 mercury filled hollow points the same day and I didn't notice any drop in accuracy
mind you it was only a .22 LR rifle and I wasn't taking any long range shots.
Usually what I did was took a drill bit and by hand reamed out some lead in a hollow point put in a bead of mercury then
capped it with wax.
I also tested out the effects of a mercury filled hollow point to a normal hollow point the mercury had more of a splash effect
(not sure of the right terminology) than the normal hollow point on a steel plate.
Hope this helps with the debate.
The Frogge January 8th, 2005, 06:17 PM

I remember hearing about the assassination of a nazi(?) leader in one of the scandinavian countries where the shooter used a
.22 that had mecury in the tip sealed with wax. The bullet missed and hit the belt buckle of the target. On impact the mercury
splattered and had enough energy to punch several holes in the guys intestines causing him to die from blood poisoning.
As to the spinning of the bullet and a liquid core, I don't believe that there will be an adverse effect as the mercury should be
vicous/dense enough that it will be spinning at the same rate as the jacket before the bullet even leaves the bore.
Begste January 12th, 2005, 12:17 AM

As I have stated before I came into posession of a bunch of mercury. And I got to thinking what if I took a standard FMJ bullet
or hollow point and heated it so the lead came out and left a copper jacket. And then filled it with mercury, and then sealed it.
I was thinking it would have an effect like a glosser safety round, when hitting the target it would rupture and expand causing
more energy to be transfered to the target, and the mercury would be poisous as well. And the jacket of the bullet would be
pretty much destroyed, and you cant get a ballistics match off of a pile of mercury. What do you guys think? Would the liquid
mercury cause the bullet to have no accuracy?
Mercury loads are real but hard to make. One must understand that these are almost always used on .22 rimfire bullets
because of the bullet design. If it has a jacket, its kinda not worth it. You have a limited time to make and shoot the mercury
load. How it works is when you fire the bullet, the mercury slams to the back of the bullet. If/when the bullet hits something,
like the other side of the guys head (depending on a close or long range shot or subsonic or HV bullet) the mercury "keeps
going" like a deadblow hammer, but worse because it moves omnidirectionally often blowing the bullet apart.
What you essentially have is a serious kinetic energy transfer. I've heard from unoffical sources that you can take a chunk out
of concrete with one. There is a legal liquid core .22 in short, subsonic, high velocity and .22 magnum. I'm going to buy some
but i'm going to get someone to do an official test. I'll keep the source secret for my own interests but the bullet says it uses
a non-toxic liquid core. It also says it gets adequate penetration. Mercury loads are not legal because its a poison. But a non-
toxic substitute seems to be no problem. There are hillbilly loads called "oilpack" bullets. Its a HARDCAST lead bullet drilled
and filled 3/4 with oil, then closed off with a hard steel bb. When it hits the bb is driven farther into the bullet and causes the
bullet to fracture into pieces.
The oilpack are legal to make and probably not too hard. It would pay to have a heavyer caliber like .44 magnum. Someone
should try to make some and test results. I would imagine a little trial and error would be needed. I think a perfectly lathed
bullet that is then moulded into a cast and then the cast is used to make a hard cast bullet, experimenting with alloy to be
super hard and more fracture prone with consistent accuracy, would be the best idea. Rather than just trying to drill a hole in a
bullet and hope it doesnt wobble in the air.
the big k January 14th, 2005, 07:13 AM

Hi,
You are referring to the assasination of Nikolai Bobrikov who was the Russian govenor-general in Finland(dictator) in 1904. As
such he was much hated by the Finns and shot by Finn Eugen Shauman with a browning 1900 (.32ACP) . The round was indeed
mercury filled, and had a cap of dentists amalgum over the top to hold the mercury in. The single round hit his belt buckle
and the resulting shrapnel made over 140 tiny perforations of his lower intestine. He died from peritonitis(Eugen committed
suicide but had to shoot himself twice to do it). The moral of the story being that unless you have time to wait for your target
to die slowly of peritonitis(today he would survive due to improvements in surgery) a .32 is still a lousy caliber no matter what
you do to it(filling with antimatter being the only exception). But what you really want to know is how to make an "explosive"
bullets. So, for a 22 drill a .28" deep hole of about .1" diameter . Since Mercury is very hard to find you fill the hole using a
syringe with HOT vaseline. If you can find an old Glass syringe you can heat the syringe with the vaseline in it(much easier).
The syringe method will work for mercury as well, but it is easier to source copper paste from service stations.
This method will produce a more accurate round than filing, cutting a cross or spooning.
the big k January 17th, 2005, 01:20 AM

One thing I forgot, you need to cut the needle off so the hole is at the bottom not the side.
DMSOnMyVeins October 20th, 2006, 09:34 AM

Where i can find mercury? It shouldn't be easy to buy because it's poisonous.
Please don't tell me about thermometers! Too much expensive!
Theres something called an ignatron. They have anywhere from 7 ounces to 3lbs of mercury in them. Look around I'm sure
you'll find one.:D
nbk2000 October 20th, 2006, 11:06 AM

An IGNAtron is an IGNORant misspelling of IGNItron very common on the internet.
And they are NOT cheap.
DMSOnMyVeins October 20th, 2006, 05:57 PM

An IGNAtron is an IGNORant misspelling of IGNItron very common on the internet.
And they are NOT cheap.
I just bought 2 ignitrons.

1 for $35.00 plus shipping
1 for $64.00 plus shipping
Total amount of crude Hg: 1,205g

When I can purify it I'll post the total amount of pure Hg.
Jacks Complete October 25th, 2006, 07:54 PM

I seriously doubt that it needs purification. No-one uses mercury for anything that requires mercury that isn't 99.9% mercury.
Otherwise something lighter, cheaper or less toxic would be used.
DMSOnMyVeins October 26th, 2006, 02:03 AM

I seriously doubt that it needs purification. No-one uses mercury for anything that requires mercury that isn't 99.9% mercury.
Otherwise something lighter, cheaper or less toxic would be used.
The Hg that came from these ignitrons has alot of oxide in it. It needs very much to be purified. I can hardly see the shiny Hg
for all the dark grey oxide.
nbk2000 October 27th, 2006, 04:54 AM

Some of the oxide states of mercury are water-soluble, making them good for poisoning as-is. :)
Wash the goo with warm water (outside!) to dissolve the water soluble oxides, decant off from the insoluble mercury, and
evaporate under vacuum to recover.
Then, wash the metallic Hg with dilute (~10%) nitric acid to remove remaining oxides and salts, filter through chamois leather,
and finally distill through glass under high vacuum (or iron pipes at high heat).
neo-crossbow November 16th, 2006, 03:42 AM

I think a perfectly lathed {machined?}bullet that is then moulded into a cast and then the cast is used to make a hard cast
bullet, experimenting with alloy to be super hard and more fracture prone with consistent accuracy, would be the best idea.
Rather than just trying to drill a hole in a bullet and hope it doesnt wobble in the air.
Many years ago, back before the days of the .300 whisper actually. I used to use a M1 Carbine for work. Being a neat little
carbine with 18 inch barrel it could be handled inside the vehicle whilst operating the spotlight. It would deck most pest
animals with ... moderate accuracy.
However, as I got tinkering I decided that hollow point ammo would be a great advantage for Kangaroos and other medium to
light game. At the time I had a case trimmer (RCBS) with interchangeable tips, I had a boring tip made up to go into the tail
stock of the trimmer in which I used with great success. The complete round was loaded into the head of the machine and
clamped into place, then the tail was brought up to the projectile tip to ensure correct allignment, seldom was it out of place,
and then you would bore the hollow tip by rotating the handle.
Accuracy was on par for what I was achieving at the time with a great increase in stopping power.
But those were the days before hollow points could be had for the 30M1, it was either surplus FMJ or a reloaded case with a
90gn Torakev cast projectile (that clogged up the gas port hole in the barrel, if you got them to feed reliably anyway) If you
were going to load anything else it would have been a deep seated heavier .308 projectile (as total length was restricted by
the tiny magazines) travelling at sub-sonic speeds, so often threaded barrels were seen with .30M1's. Unfortunately with the
sights the way they were often the tube length was increased because the diameter of the silencer was limited to being able to
see sights (and thus the carbine became too long for vehicle work) It wasn't until later that scope mounts turned up for the
carbine and descent silencers started to be manufactured. By the time this happened however commercial ammo was starting
to turn up, and the .30M1 calibre wasn't all too popular with other advancements.
A farm hand at the time suggesting mercury tips, at which of of carse I totally rejected. He argued something along the line of
a 30 cal projectile, travelling subsonic and silenced with the added factor of mercury would be perfect for repeat offenders to
knock things (probably people knowing the lad) off. I wouldn't have them in my rifle or on my dies.
I can't remember his suggested method of sealing the tip, but it required using my press to either place or crimp something
(either way it was done at the stroke of the handle)
Having bored / drilled projectiles for years, and my income depending on it I can personally guarentee with care taken
accuracy doesn't suffer sufficently to such an extent you won't topple what your aiming at.
wolfeyes January 31st, 2007, 05:32 PM

Since I was much younger and first heard about mercury-tipped bullets while watching "The Day of the Jackal" I, too, was
rather curious about them. Reading this thread has given me plenty to mull over concerning them.
One item that I feel might be interesting to the other users is a case report on mercury-induced skin granuloma's - specifically
because it mentions treatment of a GSW caused by a mercury-tipped bullet.
Titre du document / Document title

Elemental mercury-induced skin granuloma : A case report and review of the literature
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
BRADBERRY S. M. (1) ; FELDMAN M. A. (1) ; BRAITHWAITE R. A. (1) ; SHORTLAND-WEBB W. (1) ; VALE J. A. (1) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) City Hospital NHS Trust, Birmingham, ROYAUME-UNI
Rsum / Abstract
Background : Injection of elemental mercury is rare and only some 72 cases have been reported in the literature over the
period 1923-1995. Direct subcutaneous injection or extravasation of mercury injected into blood vessels can produce local
granulomata and abscesses. Unless intravascular mercury injection has occurred, clinical signs of mercury toxicity are usually
absent though four cases of systemic toxicity have been reported following isolated subcutaneous injection without evidence of
elemental mercury dissemination. Case Report : We report a further case of subcutaneous injection by gunshot of elemental
mercury, with subsequent granuloma formation, in a 19-year-old man who was admitted with an eight month history of a
tender enlarging mass in his left antecubital fossa. Three months before the onset of symptoms he had been shot in the left
antecubitalfossa, while on active military service. Surgical removal of mercury from a presumed mercury-tipped bullet was
undertaken but was incomplete and the patient declined further operative intervention as he remained asymptomatic.
Chelation therapy was not instituted. Serum and urine mercury concentrations were measured for six years after presentation.
Conclusions : We recommend that cases of subcutaneous metallic mercury injection should be managed by complete surgical
excision of the granuloma under X ray control and serial monitoring of blood and urine mercury concentrations.
Revue / Journal Title
Journal of toxicology. Clinical toxicology (J. toxicol., Clin. toxicol.) ISSN 0731-3810 CODEN JTCTDW
Source / Source
1996, vol. 34, no2, pp. 209-216 (38 ref.)
Langue / Language
Anglais
Editeur / Publisher
Dekker, Monticello, NY, ETATS-UNIS (1982) (Revue)
Mots-cls anglais / English Keywords
Mercury ; Heavy metal ; Parenteral administration ; Subcutaneous administration ; Foreign body granuloma ; Skin ; Case
study ; Projectile ; Toxicity ; Human ; Skin disease ;
Mots-cls franais / French Keywords
Mercure ; Mtal lourd ; Voie parentrale ; Voie souscutane ; Granulome corps tranger ; Peau ; Etude cas ; Projectile ;
Toxicit ; Homme ; Fusil ; Peau pathologie ;
002b03l05 ;
Mots-cls espagnols / Spanish Keywords
Mercurio ; Metal pesado ; Va parenteral ; Va subcutnea ; Granuloma cuerpo extrao ; Piel ; Estudio caso ; Proyectil ;
Toxicidad ; Hombre ; Piel patologa ;
Localisation / Location
INIST-CNRS, Cote INIST : 14107 A, 35400004469830.0100
I hope that this was appropriate as a first post - I'm enjoying my time here, and learning a lot by keeping my mouth shut. :)
teshilo February 4th, 2007, 11:31 AM

From classic book "Day of Jackal" Dialog armorer and hitman:
-I need in bullets...
-Mercury or glyceryne?
-Mercury ,this more clean...
And alloy Na/K in room temperature are liquid and after contact with water (blood ) :eek: very devastating effect..
chemdude1999 February 4th, 2007, 01:22 PM

Using some of the ideas developed earlier in this thread (mercury containment) I believe the best way to utilize mercury would
be in a larger caliber. Barret has a 25-mm rifle that uses a type of payload delivery system:
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_XM109,,00.html
Granted, the max caliber that we in the states can own is .50 with exceptions of some of the old hunting cartridges (i.e., .600
Nitro Express). Perhaps a shotgun round? There are different methods of loading payloads in shotgun shells. Maybe with some
modification, one would be feasible.
The key would be keeping the projectile whole until initial impact. I do like the idea of mercury as anti-material and anti-
personnel rolled into one. The inertia would cause the little mercury blobs to blast through cover and flesh. However, I doubt it
would be much use against a harden target. Raufoss rounds are better for that. :D
Shaker February 26th, 2007, 08:06 PM

I understand the intrigue behind the creation and employment of such a projectile. However, it is impractical for uses with any
centerfire cartridge intended for delivery at distances beyond about one hundred yards.
Copper jackets are drawn from rolled copper. The draw process is already playing with the stresses in the copper. Adding
mercury to a jacket without some sort of buffer would also destroy the heterogeneity of the copper. This would likely increase
the chances of fragmentation in, or upon exit from, the barrel.
It would be difficult and not timely, to attempt to seal a copper jacket filled with mercury without any air remaining. That air will
cause ballistic problems in all three forms of Ballistics; Internal, External, and Terminal.
There would be jarring effects on the internal and external ballistics. The forceful movement of the air bubble would shift
weight. The gravitational effect on the mercury would, as someone stated earlier, keep it from spinning. This would, in turn,
slow down the spin of the round itself. The yaw angle of trajectory would sporadically increase or decrease.
The other idea that was brought up of a sort of internal honeycomb could have worse effects. The weight of the mercury
combined with it's liquid movement could likely speed up bullet rotation once leaving the bore, if this honeycomb is used.
This, combined with the loss of heterogeneity, and the marring on the bullet surface from the lands in the bore, would likely
give you some magnificent mid air explosion. At the very least - A tumble and completely unpredictable trajectory.
For more on the effects / ill effects of liquids used in this way, I would suggest reading up on Miles C. Miller and his tests at
Aberdeen Proving Ground. Particularly an exerpt titled 'Void Characteristics of a Liquid-Filled Cylinder Undergoing Spinning and
Coning Motion'.
From one hundred yards and closer, I would say you could do just about anything. Ballistics on even sub-sonic rounds are very
tolerant in that range. I suspect you could fire a stone with a spring and effectively hit a target at 100 yards. :p
I wish you happy experimenting.
Gammaray1981 June 11th, 2007, 05:10 PM

I seem to recall reading a while back (although given the amount I read, it may have been in a work of fiction) of a form of
short-range projectile weapon utilising frozen mercury, propelled by several CO2 gas cartridges. (Short range due to lack of
initial power, defrosting of projectile, and lack of rifling.) As I said, I'm not sure if this was a factual article, but from my own
(albeit limited) experience, the basic premise seems sound, if slightly impractical due to the freezing point of mercury. (-38.72
degrees C). Any thoughts?
tintinteslacoil June 20th, 2007, 08:52 PM

Also, I once got a lot of mercury dirt cheap at a salvage yard. It was in red plastic mercury-wetted relays. The things were
HEAVY! I got whiplash just from shaking them--you can easily feel what they are filled with. Don't ask for them or tell the
proprietor what they are--he may decided not to sell to you or may then jack up the price. Just look around, then make an
offer. I sawed open dozens of these, and must have ended up with at least 20 lbs. of very clean mercury (the plastic dust
from cutting will float on top, and can be scooped off.) I had it in a big glass bottle, until some chingado stole it. Beats me
what he was going to do with it--you can't hock the stuff. Hope he drank some!
Jacks Complete July 2nd, 2007, 08:44 PM

Mercury forms an amalgam with all metals except iron, so you need to either use an iron container inside your bullet or line it
with something else. Otherwise your liquid metal bullet will be nothing more than an expensive solid bullet within a few
minutes or hours.
anonymous411 July 6th, 2007, 05:02 PM

As a thought experiment, this is fascinating-- but in a real-life scenario, I'm not about to risk my life and safety tinkering
around with ammunition which is likely to fail, jam, or otherwise be inaccurate and ineffective. When you're engaging a target,
you can't afford to experiment. Odds are fairly good you're the only one who'll end up in contact with mercury, anyway.
In my opinion, you'd be better off spending your time practicing your marksmanship.
Double tap center mass, and one to the head:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill

I have tested mercury type rounds and found them to be NOT worth the trouble.Do Not waste Your Time !!!
If you seek a hydraulic action type bullet it can be made much more simple by just filling a hollowpoint with silicone,grease,oil
or even water and sealing the bullet with J.B. weld...These do work and well.
As far as poison bullets their are many tested & proven designs ....a couple off the top of my head are the current use russian
dissolving bullet design that uses Aconitine,the WW2 german design and the early 1970s "last gasp" cyanide filled bullets
made by the velex exploding ammo team.Their are also the dissolving composite poison bullets made by F/X...etc.....
The russian bullet contains 25-30 mg Aconitine and was usually prepared at kamera Laboratory No. 12 from the roots of
Aconitium napellus, a flower plant known by such popular names as monkhood, friarscowl and wolfsbane.
The Germans in WWII also had similar bullets. The most simple german bullet contained a water-potassium cyanide solution
Russian 9mm poison bullet is on the far left.

http://i1.tinypic.com/6chc7sk.jpg
http://i11.tinypic.com/4xqr2nm.jpg
Here are some FX designs poison,delay explosive,ap.etc......My fav the ap delayed explosive poison combo prototype called
the "grim reaper" as a joke .It has the blue bullet.
Toggle September 21st, 2007, 03:51 PM

xyz,
interesting point! So the effective spin on the bullet would be very much slower than the speed of the jacket -
Not only that, but due to liquid drag the bullets would loose what spin they had faster than solid bullets. Like the old trick of
telling if an egg is raw or hard boiled by spinning it.
Charlie Workman September 23rd, 2007, 02:54 AM

Interesting cartridges, Ann. I assume the white sealant around the poison cartridge is to prevent leakage? I've seen the
cutaway of this one. It was mentioned in the Nuremberg trials testimony. What of the identity of the other two? BTW, judging
from this and your other posts, I think we'll enjoy having you here. Welcome!
ann September 23rd, 2007, 07:13 PM

Interesting cartridges, Ann. I assume the white sealant around the poison cartridge is to prevent leakage? I've seen the
cutaway of this one. It was mentioned in the Nuremberg trials testimony. What of the identity of the other two? BTW, judging
from this and your other posts, I think we'll enjoy having you here. Welcome!
Thanks..I just want to spice up the weapons section a bit.:D
The russian round is made of a metal ??? composite that dissolves....I have NOT been able to nail down what it is made from
for sure.:confused: They are issued rounds and NOT a gimmick but any info is really a bitch to find.The FX rounds are
composites with a poison core made of a laser sealed glass vial....irradiated thallium has come up ???? Hard to find info once
again.
The other 2 9mm rounds are
middle is a prototype 3 in 1 shot it uses a sabot.
The far right is really cool...IMO
It is the same size as a unfired full size 9mm .It will feed and work in all standard 9mm firearms but its a rocket along the
lines of a gyrojet but better.It is AP/Explosive and uses driveing bands.THEY WORK !!!
More 9mm fxl rounds

ann September 23rd, 2007, 11:43 PM

I've seen the cutaway of this one. It was mentioned in the Nuremberg trials testimony!
Here is a page from the testimony.I have researched,etc.... these type rounds a lot and have a copy of the full testimony.
This shows how the russian/german rounnds were made that the germans tested on humans.The rounds worked and worked
well.:D
Their is lots of hollywood BS & other BS on poison rounds i.e. mercury,garlic,etc...This is one poison design that was tested and
worked and is easy to build.

Looks like a cross between a Corbon PowRball. and a Triton Quik-Shok.
A polymer plug acts as a wedge to split apart a segmented lead bullet in a full-base copper hollow-point jacket, with the
payload contained in a central cavity. :)
Oh, an idea!
Suspend your poison of choice in a highly volatile (but inert) solvent, and use a syringe to inject it past the polymer ball into
the cavity below, then heat the round to just above the boiling point of the solvent, to drive it out of the bullet, leaving the
powdered poison inside. :)
Below: PowRball (left) and Quik-Shok (right)
Charlie Workman September 24th, 2007, 02:06 AM

NBK- That's exactly the way it worked. The jacket was split into four segments. They shot some guys in the thigh with it and
observed the results. With typical Teutonic thoroughness, the kept detailed notes. That, off course, was their ass when the
prosecutors got a hold it. Took about two hours for all of them to die.
+++++++
2 hours for who to die? The victims or the people who did the test after being convicted? NBK
+++++++
Ann- thanks for the graphic. This one goes into the files.
zarquan74 November 24th, 2007, 04:25 AM

It seems to me that this myth did get started with "The Day of the Jackal" as Flake2m mentioned. I have heard my dad
speculate about mercury filled bullets since I was about 12, based on this movie. I watched that movie again recently, and the
substance used in those bullets was Mercury Fulminate - a primary explosive with very different characteristics from elemental
Mercury.
Also, you have to consider that a mercury-filled bullet is going to leave a gun barrel at a lower velocity, and probably also with
less energy, than a conventional lead core bullet. There is a good deal of evidence that the lighter bullets - such as those
composed entirely of polymer -- have much greater destructive power at close and medium ranges when compared to
conventional lead core bullets. At long ranges, the reduced ballistic coefficient of the plastic bullets makes them less energetic
than lead bullets, but this also helps make them less lethal toward far-away bystanders in urban areas.
zippo December 3rd, 2007, 09:23 PM

the mercury shouldn't cause the bullet to be so innacurate that your not going to hit the person unless of course you plan on
shooting it a long distance. also you could just make a mold for hollow bullets and get a lead smelter, it would be so much
easier; but then you would have to put some sort of spray or something to prevent the mercury and the lead from reacting...
crowmanyclouds January 31st, 2008, 04:22 AM

From classic book "Day of Jackal" Dialog armorer and hitman:
-I need in bullets...
-Mercury or glyceryne?
-Mercury ,this more clean... [...]I haven't read the book, but did see the movie.
In the scene where the Jackal is zeroing in the "rifle", he first uses regular ammo. Then, with the "rifle" zeroed in, switches to
an explosive round (given the difference in the way the target, a melon, reacts).
I'm wondering if the dialog from the book should be read as "mercury (fulminate) or (nitro)glycerin"?
Two questions do arise, given Frederick Forsyth's Wikipedia bio,Biography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

Frederick_Forsyth#Biography)
Born in Ashford, Kent, Forsyth was educated at Tonbridge School and later attended the University of Granada in Spain. He
became one of the youngest pilots in the Royal Air Force, at the age of 19, where he served till 1958. Becoming a journalist,
he joined Reuters in 1961 and later the BBC in 1965, where he served as an assistant diplomatic correspondent. ...how much
does he really know about exotic ammunition.
And would ya really want to fire a homemade round filled with either mercury fulminate or nitroglycerin out of a super light,
super concealable, homemade "rifle"?
That's a lot of faith he's putting in his armorer!
zarquan74 since you've seen the movie more recently that me, did either character specifically mention mercury fulminate?
Asriel May 6th, 2008, 12:08 AM

While it may make a nice sounding weapon for a bad guy in a spy movie, this is not going to be an effective way of increasing
the terminal effectiveness of your bullet. The ability of the mercury to increase the weight or to poison the bullet will be
miniscule at best and probably not have any measurable increase in terminal effectiveness. Especially as making these bullets
you suggest would be extrordinarily tedious.
London_Dungeon May 14th, 2008, 11:14 AM

I once emailed the guys at Boxotruth about mercury bullets, asking if they might ever consider doing an article about them.
They told me they already tried and the bullets had no noticeable difference compared to standard HPs.
If you're going to shoot someone it's probably best to just do it with a good caliber and fire until empty. The mercury doesn't
sound like it's worth the investment of time.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Softloads, downloads, mouse
sneezes, etc. - Quiet gunshots
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View Full Version : Softloads, downloads, mouse sneezes, etc. - Quiet gunshots

I'm actually amazed this isn't anywhere else, but I've looked and tried the various names - mouse loads, mouse sneezes,
softloads, downloads (that got plenty of hits!), etc. - and since it came up in the Nylon bullets thread, I thought I would post
some results, etc. I first saw these whilst looking at some site that talked about the resistance in Norway/Finland/Sweden
during WWII.
Right, as said elsewhere, I use these in various calibres, 7.62x51, .357, .44 and .45-70, for various things.
The most complete data I have is for .44, using a nominal 0.435" soft lead bullet at 240gr. Wadding was spun nylon for pillow
stuffing. Temperature was a balmy 28 degrees C! Full sun, needless to say. TKO = Taylor Knockdown formula.
(If anyone can tell me why this huge whitespace appears, please let me know! Scroll down for data!)<TABLE WIDTH=350
BORDER=1 CELLPADDING=2 CELLSPACING=0>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
Wadding fill?
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13%>
Grains Bullseye

</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
fps

</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
mps
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
ME (Joules)
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
ME (ft.lbs.)
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25%>

TKO
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
Full Wad
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.7" SDNUM="2057;">
0.7
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="212" SDNUM="2057;">
212
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

3.13
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

3.86
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

3.7
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

3.57
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
1/3 wad
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

5.28
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
No wad
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

6.16
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

4.72
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
No wad

</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

13.02
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>

</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

13.02
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

22.85
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
What was interesting about the smaller charges was the lack of noise. Without a moderator or anything, the sound levels were
very low. The action made as much noise, and there was no discomfort with no hearing protection. Yet they still went 200
yards, even the 0.7 grain round.
I'm sure people can think of uses for these. :cool:

I'm actually amazed this isn't anywhere else, but I've looked and tried the various names - mouse loads, mouse sneezes,
softloads, downloads (that got plenty of hits!), etc. - and since it came up in the Nylon bullets thread, I thought I would post
some results, etc. I first saw these whilst looking at some site that talked about the resistance in Norway/Finland/Sweden
during WWII.
Right, as said elsewhere, I use these in various calibres, 7.62x51, .357, .44 and .45-70, for various things.
The most complete data I have is for .44, using a nominal 0.435" soft lead bullet at 240gr. Wadding was spun nylon for pillow
stuffing. Temperature was a balmy 28 degrees C! Full sun, needless to say. TKO = Taylor Knockdown formula.
(If anyone can tell me why this huge whitespace appears, please let me know! Scroll down for data!)<TABLE WIDTH=350
BORDER=1 CELLPADDING=2 CELLSPACING=0>
<TR>
Wadding fill?
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13%>
Grains Bullseye

</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
fps

</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
mps
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
ME (Joules)
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
ME (ft.lbs.)
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25%>

TKO
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

3.13
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

3.86
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

3.7
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

3.57
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
1/3 wad
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

5.28
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

6.16
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

4.72
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>

</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

13.02
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>

</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

13.02
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>
</TD>

22.85
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
What was interesting about the smaller charges was the lack of noise. Without a moderator or anything, the sound levels were
very low. The action made as much noise, and there was no discomfort with no hearing protection. Yet they still went 200
yards, even the 0.7 grain round.
I'm sure people can think of uses for these. :cool:
Jacks Complete July 20th, 2005, 07:26 AM

Ok, more to add.
Having plotted the data onto a graph, I see two different lines that head back towards zero charge.
Tracking back from the charge at each interval, I can see that the wadding takes up a small amount of power from the
powder, equivalent to about .2 grains. The primer itself acts like a charge of about 0.9 grains of RedDot.
Primer power alone, should, in theory, fire these bullets at 100fps with a wad, and 160fps without.
However, trying this with a .357 (using magnum brass), it was found that even with a short barrelled carbine, the lead slug
stopped about 2 inches from the end of the barrel. Fired from a revolver, however, this could be quite a fun round for the
garden!
If anyone has .38 brass, they might like to try this, and report the results.

Ok, more to add.
Having plotted the data onto a graph, I see two different lines that head back towards zero charge.
Tracking back from the charge at each interval, I can see that the wadding takes up a small amount of power from the
powder, equivalent to about .2 grains. The primer itself acts like a charge of about 0.9 grains of RedDot.
Primer power alone, should, in theory, fire these bullets at 100fps with a wad, and 160fps without.
However, trying this with a .357 (using magnum brass), it was found that even with a short barrelled carbine, the lead slug
stopped about 2 inches from the end of the barrel. Fired from a revolver, however, this could be quite a fun round for the
garden!
If anyone has .38 brass, they might like to try this, and report the results.
hereno July 20th, 2005, 09:43 AM

The reason the wadding kills power may be due to the fact that without it, the flash from the primer is able to shoot over the
entire surface of the powder for the full length or the case, more surface ignited quicker burn. This is a known problem in
reduced loads with bullseye in particular, where what is already a fast powder gets even quicker google for "bullseye blast". I
cant think of any good reason why this would increase power, but it will be a reason for an irregularity.
BTW, The probable reason for the "white space" is that you have pressed 'enter' while creating the HTML for the table, every
new line in your table stuck a blank one above it.
hereno July 20th, 2005, 09:43 AM

The reason the wadding kills power may be due to the fact that without it, the flash from the primer is able to shoot over the
entire surface of the powder for the full length or the case, more surface ignited quicker burn. This is a known problem in
reduced loads with bullseye in particular, where what is already a fast powder gets even quicker google for "bullseye blast". I
cant think of any good reason why this would increase power, but it will be a reason for an irregularity.
BTW, The probable reason for the "white space" is that you have pressed 'enter' while creating the HTML for the table, every
new line in your table stuck a blank one above it.

hereno,
I think what happens is the wadding simply absorbs some of the heat. One thing I should mention is that you might find your
wadding! I found one rather sticky half melted blob of nylon that hadn't even made it fully out of the case!
Of course, with such low powered rounds, you are never going to get a problem if the bullet gets jammed, but, be careful! If
that nylon cooled and set, it might form a plug, giving weird results.
You could use oatmeal, paper, or whatever, for your filler by the way.
As for the whitespace, it shouldn't render that anywhere... It seems the the board software insisted on inserting tags all
the way through, one for each line of the table. Next time I shall enter it all as one line, and see if that solves the problem.

hereno,
I think what happens is the wadding simply absorbs some of the heat. One thing I should mention is that you might find your
wadding! I found one rather sticky half melted blob of nylon that hadn't even made it fully out of the case!
Of course, with such low powered rounds, you are never going to get a problem if the bullet gets jammed, but, be careful! If
that nylon cooled and set, it might form a plug, giving weird results.
You could use oatmeal, paper, or whatever, for your filler by the way.
As for the whitespace, it shouldn't render that anywhere... It seems the the board software insisted on inserting tags all
the way through, one for each line of the table. Next time I shall enter it all as one line, and see if that solves the problem.
simply RED July 22nd, 2005, 12:44 PM

error errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
simply RED July 22nd, 2005, 12:44 PM

error errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Jacks Complete July 23rd, 2005, 07:28 AM

Error? Where? These are genuine results.
You have to aim up a bit to get 200 yards with the lower power ones, but that's life, I'm afraid.
Jacks Complete July 23rd, 2005, 07:28 AM

Error? Where? These are genuine results.
You have to aim up a bit to get 200 yards with the lower power ones, but that's life, I'm afraid.
xyz July 23rd, 2005, 08:05 AM

I think he meant that his post was an error, i.e. posting by accident.
As for the info, how does the nylon wadding hold up? If it melts in the cartridge case, surely it must coat the bore in an
annoying plastic mess (i.e. melting onto the bore and re-solidifying)?
xyz July 23rd, 2005, 08:05 AM

I think he meant that his post was an error, i.e. posting by accident.
As for the info, how does the nylon wadding hold up? If it melts in the cartridge case, surely it must coat the bore in an
annoying plastic mess (i.e. melting onto the bore and re-solidifying)?
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 01:04 PM

Do a search for 'whisper' and you'll see that this sort of thing has been discussed before.
Though, of course, actual testing and posting of results is always much better than external links. :)
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 01:04 PM

Do a search for 'whisper' and you'll see that this sort of thing has been discussed before.
Though, of course, actual testing and posting of results is always much better than external links. :)
Jacks Complete July 23rd, 2005, 07:05 PM

xyz,
I've not had any issues with it sticking in the bore. If you let it cool right down, I think it might be a problem, but most of it
got spat out the muzzle. Only once was it still hanging onto the end of the case, so I thought I would mention it for
completeness. Like I say, though, you can use pretty much anything. I've seen people use porridge (!) and hole punch
cuttings.
NBK, I only found a few half-mentions in four results, plus this one by myself. Do you get some kind of power admin search? I
know there are a few pages online about it, but some are quite demented ramblings, and all are short on real velocities or
sound levels.
You probably all want to know a bit more, though? Well, with a .44 firing, I sent the 1.5 grain shot 200 yards without trouble. I
then aimed higher and higher for each later shot with reduced powder, and even the 0.7 grain shot went 200 yards, and went
through the target sideways. I was aiming quite high for that one, but it would have been on a torso at that range, so pretty
good for something about as loud as a moderated air rifle!
Seriously, try these out. The loudest thing is the hammer falling, followed by the shot hitting the target.
Jacks Complete July 23rd, 2005, 07:05 PM

xyz,
I've not had any issues with it sticking in the bore. If you let it cool right down, I think it might be a problem, but most of it
got spat out the muzzle. Only once was it still hanging onto the end of the case, so I thought I would mention it for
completeness. Like I say, though, you can use pretty much anything. I've seen people use porridge (!) and hole punch
cuttings.
NBK, I only found a few half-mentions in four results, plus this one by myself. Do you get some kind of power admin search? I
know there are a few pages online about it, but some are quite demented ramblings, and all are short on real velocities or
sound levels.
You probably all want to know a bit more, though? Well, with a .44 firing, I sent the 1.5 grain shot 200 yards without trouble. I
then aimed higher and higher for each later shot with reduced powder, and even the 0.7 grain shot went 200 yards, and went
through the target sideways. I was aiming quite high for that one, but it would have been on a torso at that range, so pretty
good for something about as loud as a moderated air rifle!
Seriously, try these out. The loudest thing is the hammer falling, followed by the shot hitting the target.
bigbadgrinch July 30th, 2005, 04:47 PM

I'm assuming since your in the UK you were using a carbine of some kind for .44 mag tests. Was wondering how long the
barrell on it was and also if you think the results from a long barrell .44 mag revolver would be the same? I would like to try
this myself but i've never made my own handloads. Great post eitherway.
Third_Rail August 1st, 2005, 12:33 AM

Dacron works better as a filler, it doesn't melt/coat the bore.
Jacks Complete August 4th, 2005, 08:35 PM

I got the following PM:
bigbadgrinch
Hola
Hey bro I am interested in making my own ammo but I am very very uninformed about it. I was motivated after reading your
post regarding the .44 mag loads. Any results on the penetration? I'd like to make them myself to test out in my backyard
seeing as I live in a very rural setting. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? Thanks for your time.
I replied:
Hi.
You can ask things like that in the thread, since then everyone will see the answers.
Penetration is low. The big heavy bullets are slow and round, and not even stable sometimes. They tend to bounce off things,
but that's not bad, since this doubles the knockdown power c.f. stopping dead, which in turn is way more than a slow
penetration.
I had them bounce off anything that was flexible enough, so take care, and stand off axis.
bigbadgrinch August 9th, 2005, 07:55 PM

by standing off axis you man dont hold the firearm directly in front of you?
neo-crossbow June 15th, 2006, 10:35 AM

or as .30m1 owners would know...
10.2gn of ADI AR2205 pushing a 110gn projectile. Add a thread and tube to your muzzle and giddy up.
Its not the loudest auto around anyway but this is tops.
I tried a mini-30 chambered in .300 whisper and it got my mind ticking about the old m1 carbine.
great thread
Jacks Complete June 16th, 2006, 06:09 PM

10.2gn of powder will push the bullet at near sonic velocity, and give a notable report. I assume by "thread and tube" you
mean a silencer, which defies the point of the mouse loads, since in most places a silencer is either expensive or prohibited.
The mouse load is designed to be as quiet or quieter than a silenced sub-sonic round.
The .300 is a great niche round, I'd love one.
As a note, the mouse loads would be great for a home-made weapon, if the required pressure bearing tube was unavailable.
Press to the back of the head and pull the trigger. No problems with body armour.
neo-crossbow June 20th, 2006, 05:44 AM

10.2gn of powder will push the bullet at near sonic velocity, and give a notable report. I assume by "thread and tube" you
mean a silencer, which defies the point of the mouse loads, since in most places a silencer is either expensive or prohibited.
The mouse load is designed to be as quiet or quieter than a silenced sub-sonic round.
The .300 is a great niche round, I'd love one.
As a note, the mouse loads would be great for a home-made weapon, if the required pressure bearing tube was unavailable.
Press to the back of the head and pull the trigger. No problems with body armour.
yeah I took this load as close to the sound barrier as I could. At the time I did this it was quite legal to have a suppressor in
Australia and I had my own lathe to make it and thread the M1 carbine. Super sonic crack, muzzle blast and mechanical
noises make mouse loads great ideas in lever actions, bolt actions and other no-automatic rifles.
I also remeber that some brands of sub-sonic ammunition wouldn't function reliably in blow back operated .22lr rifles, it was
as noisy as a bolt action using target ammo. I did try a padded case catcher, silencer and reduced bolt weight to get a 10 / 22
ruger to work quiet and handy for a rabbit shooter who I worked with periodicly.
case catcher was to stop noise from ejection port more then anything
decided to take weight out of bolt as apposed to lightening the return spring to ensure that if had suffient force to chamber a
round
I take it mouse loads won't get an auto to work reliably without huge modifications?
Jacks Complete June 21st, 2006, 11:31 AM

Correct. The aim of the mouse load is to get the bullet to come out of the muzzle at a very low speed, after the powder has
finished burning. This means there is no flash and very low noise. You can spit the lead out at a few hundred feet per second,
and it will go 200 yards and smash a target - you just have to aim high!
Anything that took some of the power out of that would stop it exiting the barrel, plus the light charge would not generate
anything like enough gas for a modern gas-blowback to work. A recoil operated system, likewise, would not work. I doubt it
would recoil the bolt at all, since the recoil is about the same as a slingshot or .22, but with a .44 or .45 bullet.
neo-crossbow June 22nd, 2006, 10:30 AM

This certainly would be an art form to do such! A quick duck around the rifle range and various gunstores here in aus looking
for some recipies to share and all I came up with was In australia PMC market a SSCAT "Super Subsonic Catergory" this
apparently is a mouse load for 22 LR.
I'm going to keep diggin on this one, I think I have found my new hobby!~
Jacks Complete June 23rd, 2006, 04:15 PM

What calibre are you talking about using? I can probably suggest a load. Basically, you want to be using something like Red
Dot, i.e. a fast powder!
Working up a load is easy. For example: .44 with a 160gr bullet, in a magnum case, I started at 4 grains of powder, then
loaded one with 3, 2, 1. I then tested those. The 4 grain ones were pretty soft on the shoulder, and went fast down the range.
The smaller charges, obviously, less so. I fired the 1 grain powder charge, and found it still came out. This told me that the
next step was to load a few more, 1gr, 0.9gr, etc. Looking back at the table, I covered 1.5gr down to 0.7gr in 0.2 grain steps.
I was amazed when the 0.7 grain shot fired, and still thumped into the target. It was, to be sure, 4" low at 25 yards, but it was
still on the paper!
The very fast burn means that there is no flash. Primer power alone doesn't clear the muzzle, btw, not in my rifle. It requires a
little power. In a pistol it would be different.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > Arm or piercing bullets?
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Cyclonite October 5th, 2005, 12:09 AM

Just picked a a new .45 baby eagle....ordered 200 rounds of aguila .45 117gr hollowpoints. From what iv read they have som e
pretty good penetrating power...I have yet to fire them . More to follow after som e range time this week. C h e c k e m out 4.99 for
20 rounds if you orde r 10+ bo x e s o n N a t c h e z
http://www.packing.org/oldnews/article/?article=6005
nbk2000 October 6th, 2005, 03:33 PM

An 'iv' is som ething you put into a person through a needle in their arm .
'I've ' is what you use when referring to yourself.
Just exactly how are these 'arm or piercing' bullets? From the pro vided link, doesn 't sound any m ore penetrating tha n any
regular hot-load to m e.
Sodium Cyanide October 7th, 2005, 02:19 AM

Correct m e if I'm wrong, but wouldn't hollow points have less of a chance of penetrating armor than non-ho llow poin t bullets?
T h e y w o u l d e x p a n d , a n d s p r e a d t h e f o rce onto a larger surface area and have less force to penetrate the a rm or me thinks.
TreverSlyFox October 12th , 2005, 09:58 AM

Sounds like a nice round, but for the m oney yo u have tied up in a .45 you could buy 2 Russian/Ro m a i n i a n C Z - 5 2 s a n d
t h o u s a n d s o f r o u n d s o f a m m o. The CZ-52 puts a 95gr FMJ 7.62x25 roun d down range at over 1400fps and is a legendary
"Vest" killer.
Though it's not a wea pon for the faint of heart. It's big, heavy, loud, shoots a foot of flam e out the barrel, has an energetic
m uzzle jump and is only an 8 rounder. But it costs less than $150.00 in excellent condition and 12 00 rounds of am m o is under
$ 1 3 0 . 0 0 S l a p t h a t i n a g a n g b a n g e r s h a n d a n d i f h e s h o ots it sid eways he's likely to knock himself out with it when he catches
it in his teeth. Dam n thing is a hoot to shoot at night th ough. :e ek: It takes a little getting use to but after awhile you can p ut
all 8 in a mans chest at 25 yards.
ann S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2007, 05:30 PM

T h e m i x e d a l l o y a g u i l a I Q r o u nds are NO T AP in any way shape or form.I have tested it m yself... in fact they are a poor round
in all ways and are fadeing away as m ost "EXOTIC" BULLETS do.
I have seen tests with this round on a 3/4-inch ballistic polycarbonate plate, but so what m ost standard ball rounds will do the
s a m e.
AcMav S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2007, 10:06 PM

You're correct in this assumption, the reason the police and m o s t p e o p l e u s e J a c k e t e d H o l l o w P o i n t r o u n d s b e c a u s e t h e y
b a l l o o n o u t u p o n i m p act, the Jackets are serrated so upon impa ct the bullet spreads, thus creating as much traum a a s
possible.
However the Full Metal Jacket rounds have m uch m ore penetrating power because they do n o t b l o s s o m a t a l l u p o n i m p a c t . T h i s
creates a m uch lesser chance of a kill shot because the bullet creates a clean wound, you need a much bigger FMJ Round than
a JHP round to kill. These rounds are not without their benefits though as a FMJ round will easily pierce sm a l l d e f e n s e s
(Drywall, Thin Sheet Metal, Body Arm or).
Personally I'd go for the Full Metal Jacket rounds, its be tter to wound than kill (Wounding takes two soldiers off the front line,
possibly m ore if you're dealing with piggies, lesser charges IF you happen to get caught, where as killing its done with). In
conclusion th ough I d oubt it really m atters, if you hit a piggy he's going to go run ning eve n if it doesn't bre ak his vest.
Shadowmartyr October 25th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 8 : 5 6 P M

T h e y w o u l d e x p a n d , a n d s p r e a d t h e f o rce onto a larger surface area and have less force to penetrate the a rm or me thinks.
He is right.
Hollow points are the exact opposite of what yo ur wanting to do, penetrate armor. The bullet tip is hollow in the center so when
it hits it will form a mushroom shape a n d s p r e a d a n d h a v e m ore surface area.
W hat you are wanting is ballistic tipped am m unition. Ho wever they don't m ake it for ACP rounds.
It's m ainly used for h igh caliber rifles (sniper rifles mainly, .308 and beyond).
Mr Science October 27th , 2007, 01:57 AM

Taken from W ikipedia:
Armor-piercing am m unition is used to penetrate harden ed armored targets such as body armor, vehicle armor, concrete, tanks
and other de f e n s e s , d e p e n d i n g o n t h e caliber of the firearms. Armor-piercing amm u n i t i o n c o n s i s t s o f a h a r d e n e d s t e e l ,
tungsten-carbide, or depleted uranium penetrator enclosed within a softer material, such as copper or alum inum . Armor-
piercing amm unition can range from rifle and p istol caliber rounds all the way up to tank rounds.
Rifle and pistol round s are usually built around a penetrator of steel or tungsten. Aircraft and tank rounds sometim e s u s e a
core of depleted uran ium . This penetrator is a pointed m ass of high-density material that is designed to re t a i n i t s s h a p e a n d
carry the maximum p o s s i b l e a m o u n t o f e n e r g y a s d e e p as possible into the target. Depleted-uranium penetrators have the
a d v a n t a g e o f b e i n g p yrophoric and self-sharpening on im pact, resulting in incredible heat and energy focused on a minim al
area of the target's arm or. Som e rounds also use explosive or incendiary tips to aid in the penetration of thicker arm or.
Rifle armor-piercing amm unition generally carries its hardened penetrato r within a copper or cupro-nickel jacket, sim ilar to the
jacket that would surround lea d in a co nvention al projectile. Upon im pact on a hard target, the copper case is destroyed, but
the penetrator continues its m otion and penetrates the substance. Sim ilar armor-piercing am m unition for p i s t o l s h a s a l s o b e e n
d e v e l o p e d . I t i s o f s i m ilar design to the rifle amm o a b o ve.
The entire projectile is not normally m a d e o f t h e s a m e m aterial as the penetrator because the physical cha racteristics that
m a k e a g o o d p e n e t r a t o r ( t o u g h , h a r d m etal) m a k e t h e m a t e r i a l e q u a l l y h a r m ful to the barrel of the gun firing the round.
Contrary to com m on belief, te flon or other coatings on the bullet do not in themselves help it penetrate deeper. Teflon-coated
bullets were m eant to help reduce the wear on the barrel as a re sult of firing hard ened projectiles. Teflon coating was a trend
that has largely faded, in part because of laws resulting from this miscon ception.
The legality of AP pistol amm o p u z z l e s m e . . . s o m e t i m es I hear AP rounds (for the pistol) are illegal, yet som e t i m e s o n
gunbroker, you see AP rounds for sale. For instance: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem . a s p ? I t e m = 8 3 3 9 9 1 4 4
I m ight be getting confused with m anufacturers policies however (selling only to LE or licensed dealers; not the law, just their
policy). O bviously the y are hard to obtain (pistol AP in general), but if som eone could clarify this, that would be nice . Sorry if I
a m getting o ff the subject.
Charles Owlen Picket October 27th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 2 : 0 2 P M

from what I understand of US fed gov law, PRE-manufactured AP rounds (fully loa d e d c o m plete cartridges) are verbotten - but
y o u m a y p u r c h a s e b u llets for handloading. HOW EVER....5.56 green tips may be sold off as surplus. As are black tip 30.06 from
Korea, etc, etc.
Big Mac Novem ber 17th, 2007, 11:28 AM

Sounds like a nice round, but for the m oney yo u have tied up in a .45 you could buy 2 Russian/Ro m a i n i a n C Z - 5 2 s a n d
t h o u s a n d s o f r o u n d s o f a m m o. The CZ-52 puts a 95gr FMJ 7.62x25 roun d down range at over 1400fps and is a legendary
"Vest" killer.
Though it's not a wea pon for the faint of heart. It's big, heavy, loud, shoots a foot of flam e out the barrel, has an energetic
m uzzle jump and is only an 8 rounder. But it costs less than $150.00 in excellent condition and 12 00 rounds of am m o is under
$ 1 3 0 . 0 0 S l a p t h a t i n a g a n g b a n g e r s h a n d a n d i f h e s h o ots it sid eways he's likely to knock himself out with it when he catches
it in his teeth. Dam n thing is a hoot to shoot at night th ough. :e ek: It takes a little getting use to but after awhile you can p ut
all 8 in a mans chest at 25 yards.
Hate to revive a rather old post but I love my CZ-52. I got it from a neighbor for 30 bucks. I was rather happy when he said
that I could have it for 30. Originally it was supposed to be 90 and paid off 30 a m onth. After the first month he just shrugged
and said, "You'll get m ore use out of it than me. 30 will do."
The small size of the round belies its potent power. I am also rather imp ressed b y its ergonom ics. Especially considering that
the grip appears to be cumbersome, it really is not as long as you don't have carnie-folk hands.
So in short, I have to fully agree with you on th at.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > The powder in BlankGun Amm o ? ?
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bonusiletisim January 1st, 2006, 09:20 PM

I have a blankgun with m o d i f i e d a m m o . T h e p l a s t i c e n d o f t h e s h e l l i s o p e n e d a n d a m etal ball is put there. It serves as a
real bullet with less power. There is a white powder in these amm o. I wonder what this is. Maybe it can have som e u ses;) Any
idea s?
Jacks Complete January 2nd, 2006, 12:35 PM

W ell, it m ight be a light coloured BP, o r it could b e a s m o k e l e s s p r o p e l l a n t .
W hat country are you in? A look at what the law says ab out blanks might tell you as m uch as we can.
shrub April 10th, 2008, 05:20 AM

bonusiletisim , what kind of po wer/accuracy do you get with the m etal ball?
would it be better to use .117 air rifle pellet or a bullet.
-=HeX=- April 15th, 2008, 02:21 PM

Shrub, he is gone. La st activity, July 2006. Always check how stale the corpse is. But to answer your question, .177 is going to
fly b etter for the the obvious reasons of its better ballistics.
Acco rding to a gunshop owner the powder is nitrocellulose. SBSP or the green DBSP. He told m e it varies brand to brand.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Smallest exploding ammunation
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Viper III January 14th, 2006, 04:31 PM

I think everyone of you know air powered guns with this 4,5mm Pb Diabolos...
press a little bit hmtd in the "ass" of these Diabolos..
Than load them into the barrel but not in the right position, put them with the "ass" at the point...
I have a CO2 revolver S&W from Umarex....I shot on a little "Plechdose" (a little metall container, there were diabolos in this box)
there were a big hole in it (7 mm) , and some tiny Pb particles were shot out of the other side (between one side to the other side were ~ 1cm air
*shit*....I hope i can learn better english when I read the whole time old threads of this forum ^^
festergrump January 14th, 2006, 06:02 PM

I'd honestly say that it probably won't be too very long before you run into a jammed pellet problem while doing this. If you load the cavity end of the projectile into the barrel
first (filled with the hmtd even) you're risking it expanding in the barrel, attempting to fold in on itself, and plugging up the bore while the CO2 continues to try to force it out
the end of the barrel. I'd recommend not doing this, even if it is such a rather small dose of hmtd.
On the matter of english, you've already learned "shit" and "ass"... you're doing well! hehe... Honestly, though, speak it exclusively to everyone you know who can also speak
it fluently and read as much as you can in english (on a daily basis if possible) and you'll have it down in no time at all...
Viper III January 15th, 2006, 07:52 AM

Hm, I tried it a few times and it never exploded in the barrel,...
I have to say that my barrel of the revolver is " just" 25cm long....
if you use a gun with a long barrel the diabolo may be heated up and explodes...but i think there is no damage to the barrell because its a realy small amount...
its just funny to shot around at street lamps 30 m away and there its going bang... =)

here are some pics:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3492/zweiterschuss9eb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2009/splitterlchervomzweitenschuss6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8247/zweiterschussmitdia6mi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/842/splitterstcke2mp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
new target:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6342/ersterschuss23iq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5029/ersterschuss3td.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
the wall behind :
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9224/ersterschusseinschusswand4cf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
charger January 18th, 2006, 05:50 PM

Fester said it probably won't be long until you get a jammed pellet. So far you have been lucky, that doesn't mean it will not happen. What are you shooting in these pictures?
Also please learn to spell. Thanks

What am I shooting ??
Co2 revolver S&W 8" barrel from umarex. ?!
http://www.christian-chmielorz.de/bilder/Umarex/CO2/586-9.jpg
this one but just in stainless look.
and a jammed pellet wouldn`t go into the revolver drum.

I guess Viper hasn't learned to take context of a sentence into consideration yet, Charger. You might have to spell it out for him in the future. What he said he was shooting
ON, though (not at) was a pellet tin.
Viper, if you look more closely at what I had posted earlier you'd have gotten that I was refering to a problem you may have WHILE attempting to SHOOT these rounds, not
while loading them into the revolver cylinder. When you load them cavity first you may experience a jam after you pull the trigger and the pellet is still within the bore of the
barrel. Looking at the projectile you are shooting from your gun in the 3rd picture you posted, though, it seems of a pretty solid construction and this may take over a thousand
shots to ever occur. I was thinking of those hourglass types of pellets which will cause problems much quicker than the drum-type you are shooting due to their less solid center
of mass reinforcement. You're not immune to a jam, by any means, but it may take much longer to have one jam on you.
A better point is the accuracy of your loading. You now have more weight at the rear of the projectile as it exits the barrel and it will inevitably tumble in mid-air to correct this.
Doubtful you'll notice any difference since it's not the most accurate of guns to begin with, but it is a valid point all the same.
Now, why don't you show with your camera some regular pellet hits versus the hmtd rounds so we can see what markable difference there is to the damage to the target? I'm
guessing that you will be more surprised than I to find there is not too much at all.
I have to give you credit for taking a good picture, though. I was able to pull a complete fingerprint right off the 5th picture. Running it through the global database now... ;)
" I was able to pull a complete fingerprint right off the 5th picture. Running it through the global database now... "
This is good for.....?
If I find a empty pellet tin I`ll try it soon, but I think ther is just a hole of the diameter of the pellet and no Pb particles exits on the other side
Alexires January 20th, 2006, 10:45 AM

*grin* Festergrump is refering to your fingerprints.....on the inside of the tin.....in the photo..... Dude, seriously, you might want to sort of think about stuff before you post,
and research a little.
I dont pretend to speak for anyone, but some of your posts look a little.... dubious at best. I know being told to use the search function can get annoying, but you might want
to consider it.
No offence intended, I could be completely running away with the idea but yeah, it might warrent some thinking.

Fester, only one? There's two and a partial!
That should be good for something when the Bush/Blair NWO formally declares itself. ;-)

One was all I needed to get my point across. Here's hoping I did even that. You never can be too careful, can you? Blatant disregard like that gets you made instantaneously,
no work at all for the "blue-bishops".
New World Order... It's happening right before our very eyes...
Viper III January 21st, 2006, 04:57 AM

Can some admin delet this picture 5 ?, I can`t ....I don`t know why...
But I am sure , I am not registered at the police or somewhere else with my fingerprints ;).........I am not a terrorist ; ) lol
Moreover I live on an other continent than you, an I think the amerikan FBI CIA..., doesn`t worry about an little boy hunderts of km away who shoots with a airgun against
pellet tins.
Macgyver January 29th, 2006, 11:27 AM

I think everyone of you know air powered guns with this 4,5mm Pb Diabolos...
press a little bit hmtd in the "ass" of these Diabolos..
Than load them into the barrel but not in the right position, put them with the "ass" at the point...
I have a CO2 revolver S&W from Umarex....I shot on a little "Plechdose" (a little metall container, there were diabolos in this box)
there were a big hole in it (7 mm) , and some tiny Pb particles were shot out of the other side (between one side to the other side were ~ 1cm air
*shit*....I hope i can learn better english when I read the whole time old threads of this forum ^^
This is nothing new, I wrote a thread about doing this a very long time ago.
But I did it a bit different, I sealed the ammo in the back with solder, then drilled a hole in the front, filling the diabolo with HMTD and then sealing it with a drop of superglue.
This way you don't have to fire it backwards.....
parmin February 27th, 2006, 12:51 AM

heh, and i thought placing a 22 round backwards on 308 hollowpoints are fun :)
hmm..

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Ammunition in Australia
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ChippedHammer March 11th, 2008, 04:29 AM

I've had a decent look around yet I keep finding conflicting information.
What are the legal requirements to buy handgun and rifle ammunition in Australia?
Does it vary state to state (I'm in NSW) or is it federal?
Cheers
Hightimes March 11th, 2008, 04:55 AM

What do you mean legal requirements?, like can you buy ammo w ithout a licence ? nope sadly. http://w ww.afp.gov.au/act/firearms/faq.html
irish March 11th, 2008, 09:11 PM

It varies from State to State but in general you will need to have a shooters licence to buy or possess any ammo. Cat.A only licence you will not be able to buy centerfire rifle
ammo and to buy pistol ammo you will need an "H" licence, the exeption is stuff that is commonly used in leverguns, .38Special, 357Mag, .44Mag etc. and that can be bought
on a "B" licence (the licence that EVERY Australian who can should have, the more of us there is the harder it it for "them" to take away the firearms w e are still allowed).

Fucking stupid laws, I envy you Americans seeing as you can mail order a pallet of ammo with just a drivers liscense :(
From w hat I can tell you legally need a liscense but thats often overlooked, so I guess if you are confident and don't stand out like a sore thumb you have a chance.
Just like buying exotic lab chemicals, act like you know what the fuck you are doing and saying, if you get into trouble don't say anything stupid and gtfo :)
lucas March 12th, 2008, 10:45 AM

(I worked in a gun shop until recently)
Ammunition in Australia in every state is essentially the same thing.

Ammunition includes:
Loaded cartridges.
Air pellets. (YES FOR REAL IT DOES INCLUDE THESE. I CANT SELL THEM TO ANYONE WITHOUT A LICENCE)
Powders.
Primers.
Does not include:

Unprimed brass.
Projectiles.
If one asks for pellets or cartridges in any gun shop one will be asked for a licence w hich enables the person to own a gun that fires the relevant ammunition. As w as already
stated in a previous post, a licence for an A class gun allow s one to buy only ammo that an A class gun fires etc.
Classes are as follows. (only A and B are easy to get, H is harder, C is rare and D VERY rare.)
A: Rim-fire .22 rifles (not self loading); Single and double barrel shotguns; Air-rifles
B: Centre-fire rifles (not self loading); muzzle loading rifles; combination guns; anything not included in other categories.
C: Pump action and self-loading shotguns with up to 5 round magazines; self-loading rim-fire .22 rifles with up to 10 round magazine.
D: Self-loading centre-fire rifles; pump action and self-loading shotgunt greater than 5 round magazine; rim-fire .22 rifles greater than 10 round magazine.
H: handguns.
Prescribed weapons: machine guns, select fire weapons, saw n off and home made guns, disguised firearms. More.
Nobody is allowed a prescribed gun :( many tears
For a stupid reason .177 rim-fire is class B. The stupid reason is that it isn't .22 rim-fire as the legislation says. :(
Legislation is similar but not identical state to state. It was publicised by the government that the new laws w ould be national in 1996, but that was not true. For instance, a
Victorian can buy a gun in South Australia but a South Australian cannot buy a gun in Victoria.
The only loophole is that nearly no gun shop checks for a licence for powder and primers although strictly they should. If one can buy those without problem then it means one
can then use them to assemble one's own cartridges with one's own brass and projectiles which are legal to buy without a licence. The press, dies and other accessories for
loading are unregulated.
A cheap set of reloading gear costs $225 plus dies $50 plus shell-holder $15. You should be able to get the equipment for $300 if you only buy crap like Lee parts. RCBS, Lyman,
etc will cost more because it's good.
If you are intending to buy powder, know what type you want, because then you will be served. If you don't know what powder you need you will seem suspicious then you
may be asked for a licence. DON'T load ammo w ith the w rong powder, it IS dangerous if you don't read a reloading book first.
Don't ask for large rifle primers and AS-30N powder, you will get a very strange look from the staff.
a3990918 March 12th, 2008, 08:13 PM

I'm asking this regarding another thread. Oz seems to have some of the stricter ammo laws :confused:so what I want to know is: Spent rounds and/or factory blanks (live or
spent) that cant be easily converted to a usable round(aka the long nose .308 blanks for the M-60). Do they fall under the same strict guidelines or are they easy to get?
Thanks...
lucas March 12th, 2008, 09:07 PM

Fired cartridges are not controlled. If you visit a shooting range you can take home the used cartridges, but not any live ones unfired. Blanks for starter guns are freely available,
as are blanks for replica guns. (Actually they're in short supply in many areas, but that's a supply issue not a legal one.)
I think blanks are not counted as ammo, I read the local firearms act and it doesnt mention blanks in the description of ammunition, so I believe them fine. Certainly I'd expect
them to be fine, but a shopkeeper may ask, w hat theyre being used for if you order in .308 or .223 blanks. Not many people ask for them. At the shopkeeper's discresion they
may ask for a licence even is not required to.
As for easy to get, I doubt it. I doubt that ADI, which I assume makes the blanks the army uses for training, sells them much to retailers. Raytrade is the distributer for other ADI
products so one could call them and ask. (03) 9706 5936
ADI Makes the F3 blank in 5.56 but I dont know if they make a .308 blank.
http://ww w.adi-limited.com/site.asp?page=190
a3990918 March 12th, 2008, 09:26 PM

Fired cartridges are not controlled. If you visit a shooting range you can take home the used cartridges, but not any live ones unfired. Blanks for starter guns are freely available,
as are blanks for replica guns. (Actually they're in short supply in many areas, but that's a supply issue not a legal one.)
ADI Makes the F3 blank in 5.56 but I dont know if they make a .308 blank.
http://ww w.adi-limited.com/site.asp?page=190
Was just curious about the .308 and/or 30-06 for use as a low powered, low cost .44 Auto-Mag knock-off for improvised firearms in restricted areas.

Only problem is that you cant roll your own .22LR, I imagine they would be less stringent if your only buying a brick or tw o or .22LR.
fiknet March 13th, 2008, 06:52 AM

From w hat I can tell you legally need a liscense but thats often overlooked, so I guess if you are confident and don't stand out like a sore thumb you have a chance.
Backing up what lucas said I can attest that this doesn't w ork, my dad w ho is a middle age man and doesn't look like a dodgy teenager went into a local store and calmly asked
for some .177 pellets, the lady got them out then asked him for his license, which was a bit of an aw kward situation :p

Its a bit sad that its easier for Joe Average to fill his car boot with IED's and take a trip to the local shopping mall than it is to buy some airgun pellets.
And to think that the sheeple out there think they are safer w ith these shitty law s :(
Charles Owlen Picket March 13th, 2008, 10:27 AM

Of Commonwealth countries that had little Gun control, South Africa became a non-entity and we all KNOW w hat happened to Rhodesia. Australia followed Britannia's lead on
that and pulled most all the rights the people had. I haven't kept up w ith New Zealand (other that Rugby) on w hat they been doing. I don't think they w ent as far as Aus.
Except the Parliamentary system of government, Australia is very similar to the USA and has been beside one another through all the conflicts in the last hundred years. The
histories are somewhat similar but there appears to be more Leftists there [in positions of power as well].
I am astounded how the people gave up their firearms when the school shooting tragedy occurred some dozen years back or so. Many people spoke out but the laws w ere
rammed through and now Australia is close to the UK in strict gun laws. Once a law is enacted it's very difficult to dismantle it. That's why the USA has limits ("Sunsets") on
certain legislation.
In truth, has it made the country safer? I noticed that when that crazy with a sword was in the news, some Australians rallied for law s against swords and in Scotland, they
actually have "knife laws" instituted in the last few years to cope with street crime. Scotland certainly has no less street violence.
mike-hunt March 21st, 2008, 03:51 AM

With shop bought brass and projectiles, and homemade black powder it may be possible to hand load ammo using primers from blank rounds. This is if removing the primers
with the correct reloading tools doesn't destroy the primer. I am hoping someone with hand loading experience can correct me on this if I have it wrong. This method w ould
work out expensive and time consuming but it would not require a shooters license.
Reloading supplies are available online at Horsley Park gun shop.

Http://hpgs.netmerchant.com.au/?main=
Charles Owlen Picket March 21st, 2008, 08:30 AM

Note that BP w ill drop your pressures to a bear minimum. HOWEVER...that may be a good thing with a home-made weapon. While some cartridges would do fine with BP (older
designs like the .38 used in revolvers, etc)some would not (newer designs in auto pistols, such as the 10mm). Loading w ith BP would function just fine in terms of bullet
propulsion. Building enough pressure to cycle a slide may be problematic.
shady mutha March 21st, 2008, 06:07 PM

In my tow n w e have a gun club that lets anyone off the street 'rent' a gun, ammo and a lane( fully supervised). You watch a safety video and off you go.
You w alk in tell the staff you w ant to shoot a 100 rounds from a glock or whatever, they give you the 100 rounds and 5 or 6 mags and lock you in the range area.
From here you pocket a few rounds and thats it. Expensive way to do it but it all depends how much you need the ammo.
a3990918 March 21st, 2008, 07:29 PM

Loading with BP w ould function just fine in terms of bullet propulsion. Building enough pressure to cycle a slide may be problematic.
Even if you did get the slide to cycle properly, I would think that after just a few BP rounds that you would start to see problems with fouling of the moving parts from the BP
residue?? :(:( Wouldn't w ant to use unless as a last ditch effort and then thoroughly clean afterwards.
Code Red March 24th, 2008, 07:09 AM

Ammunition casings (brass) can easily be purchased through eBay, as it is inert, non explosive, and shouldn't upset the "too much time on their hands" eBay police.
Most rifle/pistol ranges reload their own ammo for sale, so being caught taking shells would be frowned apon! Do it discreetly!
mike-hunt March 25th, 2008, 05:06 AM

This may be getting a little of the original topic it may be of some help to those needing ammo w ith out the inconvenience of obtaining a license or dealing with the scum bags
at the local pub. Its a recipe for a sulfur less black pow der that may be useful for reloading. I have searched for the burn rates of commercial reloading pow ders for comparison
but could only find tables listing them from fastest to slow est not in meters per second .as this formula contains no sulfur it should be less corrosive to the gun although the
amount of total residues may remain unknown until I can do a comparison or various powders from a safe distance.
Complete recipe and original post by OEZO here.

Http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/show thread.php?t=534&highlight=sulfer+ black+ pow der
Sulferless Black Powder
Explosive Type: Low

Burn Rate: 1200m/s max
Consistency: Dry gray or black powder
Deflag Temp: Approx. 300 degrees Celcius
Chemicals Required:
Potassium Nitrate/Sodium Nitrate (pow dered)7.5 units by weight

Wood charcoal (powdered) 2 units by weight
iHME March 25th, 2008, 10:04 AM

I have a book about black pow der manufacture for use in firearms. It makes note on burn rates in m/s. I'll upload it whem I get home.
a3990918 March 25th, 2008, 02:37 PM

This may be getting a little of the original topic it may be of some help to those needing ammo.
After reading the linked post it seems that this mixture does not produce enough gas to be an effective propellant for re-loading(Not that under certain circumstances it couldn't
be used, just not as effective as normal sulfer based BP)
Of course it's ease of ignition and low pressure would make it suitable for improvied zip/pipe guns that are constructed of questionable materials.

If an interested Australian went on a trip to the USA and spent some time in MONTANA; spent some time in the gun shops there.....could he mail his goods home? Of the "less
restrictive" states, Wyoming & Montana are a great deal of fun...
mike-hunt March 27th, 2008, 01:54 AM

Mailing gun parts into Australia is extremely risky 100% of mail is x-rayed. packages sent by courier about 1/3 rd are x-rayed . The Australian customs spends a lot of time and
money on trying to keep gun parts out they still however get in. w hen traveling to S.E Asia I have smuggled small metal parts out in my luggage simply by placing them in my
checked luggage then transferring them from the luggage to my pocket inside a plastic ticket wallet after picking it up at arrival in Australia. baggage is x-rayed on exit but there
is no metal detector to walk threw . I wouldn't try it w ith any thing illegal to export Life in a S.E Asian prison wouldn't be fun. The chances of getting ammo through is not worth
the risk. I have also considered mail ordering short lengths of gun barrel from the US mainland to Hawaii and posting them home from there with a bolt through them barrings
on ether end and labeled motorcycle parts . If you are inventive it would be possible to get most parts through remember though you cant hide parts from x-ray simply by
placing them into a metal container.

Metal gun parts can be imported - it just costs a lot of money. Fill a large box with car or bike parts and slip a single firearms part in. It will get x-rayed and will pass, although
getting a w hole frame through wont be as easy. A bolt or slide wont stand out in a box of thousands of diffrent parts but a handgun frame w ill. This is w here the CNC mill
comes in, make what you cannot import :)
http://cncguns.com/
fiknet March 28th, 2008, 06:23 AM

Also to improve your chances on importing illegal things someone mentioned to do it around Christmas time as they will have the mammoth task of keeping up with the sudden
influx of mail and will not be as thorougher in checking packages to get them through quickly as possible.
edit:
Ammunition casings (brass) can easily be purchased through eBay, as it is inert, non explosive, and shouldn't upset the "too much time on their hands" eBay police.
Most rifle/pistol ranges reload their own ammo for sale, so being caught taking shells would be frowned apon! Do it discreetly!
Also I vaguely remember the range master telling me it is illegal to possess centerfire cartridges without a license, they don't however, mind you taking the .22 rimfire.

Possession of ammunition without a liscense is an offense, there are no laws restricting brass.
http://ww w.oztion.com.au/buy/auction.aspx?itemid= 3872656&d= &sort= 0&pg= 1&cat=1637&view=List&f1=&f2=&type2=&type3= &type4= &type5=&s=
Code Red April 1st, 2008, 05:46 AM

Also I vaguely remember the range master telling me it is illegal to possess centerfire cartridges without a license, they don't however, mind you taking the .22 rimfire.
Owning or having in possesion "brass" or expired ammunition is not illegal, and carries no offence. It is plain old brass afterall!
Same goes with ow ning a rifle/pistol barrel... nothing illegal there, less dangerous than a baseball bat!
Sure, if the pigs w ere to find a barrel or spent shells in your possession they'd suspect some kind of w rong doings... but legally, they couldn't do jackshit!
lucas April 3rd, 2008, 10:06 AM

Pre-'96 the laws covering registration of firearms w as quite varied. In NSW it was required that one possess a licence to buy a gun, but it wasn't necessary to register that gun.
Victoria and SA required licensing and registration. In most states a receiver constituted a gun and the serial number had to be stamped on the receiver. In Tasmania the barrel
constituted a gun, but the receiver did not. That meant that one could buy a barrel in NSW and a receiver in Tasmania and the w hole firearm didn't need a licence to be
acquired. These days the receiver is the part that must be stamped with a serial number and constitutes a gun in all stated and territories. Barrels aren't strictly controlled under
most states' laws.
It w as because they didn't have to register their rifles in NSW that they could bury them and get away with it during the buy-back.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > R ifled Bullet
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neetje March 18th, 2008, 04:36 PM

I saw this video on youtube today:
Alum inium rifled bullet test sh ot (http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=eq-vXutrYoo)
I rem e m b e r e d s e e i n g a p a t e n t o n r i f l e d bullets a couple of months ago, but I couldn't find it today. I wonder if anybody has
ever tried this before because this could be very useful with an im provise d sm ooth barrel gun ;)
I've tried searching google for rifled bullets and the patent, but it seems to find "rifle bullets" a better match...
I've searched this forum and couldn't find anything on it too, so I thought, let's m ake a new topic about it.
I wonder if anybody has ever tried firin g/creating this before.
Bacon46 March 19th, 2008, 11:57 PM

I h a v e s h o t r i f l e d s l u g s t h r o u g h a s m o o t h b o r e 1 2 g a u g e; you can drop a deer inside of 40 yards, but I have never shot a
s m o o t h l e a d s l u g o u t o f t h e s a m e g u n for comparison. I dont think companies like Winchester would bother rifling slugs if it
didn t improve the accuracy.
Use rifled slug for k eywords.
neetje March 20th, 2008, 10:49 AM

thx. That's exactly what I was looking for.

There was a test with Brennenike (sp?) slugs and the rifling thereof awhile back by Rem ington when they started to offer a
rifled barrel for their slug guns. W hat they foun d m ay be of interest.
A rifled slug does indeed spin. But it spins gently (if loaded in such a ma nner - but that the only way rotation will be achieved).
That is, it does not retain an energetic rotation. Slight a lternative stimulus (like leaves or twigs) can upset the rotation or stifle
it. W hat's m o r e t h e s p i n i s d e p e n d e n t u p o n l o a d i n g e l e m ents and powder levels. It will loose it's spin in flight after approx.
120yrds in m ost cases. The best spin is achieved by DO WNLOADING a slug cartridge. High pressure loads offer LESS spin. The
best accuracy is achie ved with either extrem e s o f l o a d l e v e l s .
The lead vortex fins on the slug will only grip & spin if the slug is not ove r-powere d. But th at does not m ean that a fast hard
driven slug that is a "sm oothbore special" (m usket type load) cannot be accurate within 100yds.
A gentle load of a fast burning powder or a heavy load of slow burning powder (blue dot). In the la ter case, the slug does not
spin that much but flies very flat. (see Rem ington Arms Corp 1998 publication "Slug-gun Barrel Development for the 21st
Century").
Gunjack March 25th, 2008, 04:20 PM

R i f l e d s l u g s g i v e t h e s a m e accuracy as the sm o o t h l e a d slugs.
As long as they have a tight fit in the bore of the gun.
Up to 50 yards they give pretty good a ccuracy for a slug .
The groups are the size of 4 by 4 inches.
Tigh t bore fit or not,a t 100 yards they are all over the place.
The ribs on the rifles slug are not mad e to give it a spin during flight.
They are made to give way in a choke of a rifle and create the p erfect slug-bore fit on the spot.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > .22 Rimfire "Different" Ammo?
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lucky13 March 20th, 2008, 07:57 PM

Say I've seen a tiny device to fire .22 rimfire, but due to the country's laws, they are almost impossible to come by. Blank cartridges on the other hand are available by the
case.
I've seen the tear and pepper gas cartridges you can buy from certain places, which are really just blanks filled with an irritant. There are also the ones filled with flash powder
that serve to create a brilliant white flash.
My question is, apart from these and the obvious way of using a blank to propel a lead bullet, are there any other special loads that would serve to be a last ditch device?
ChippedHammer March 20th, 2008, 10:03 PM

In a .22 probably not :)
Mr Science March 21st, 2008, 02:27 AM

The closest to 'exotic' ammo I have seen is .22LR tracer. Even if this was to be homemade, just realize the size you are working with. As ChippedHammer briefly mentions,
such exotic ammunition selections are found in larger calibers, esp 12 GA.
lucas March 21st, 2008, 02:50 AM

Blanks would normally contain little or no powder and can work purely on the primer's power. I'd use a small amount of the fastest powder you can make or buy to boost the
performance of the blank. The powder used in .22 cartridges is very fine, fast powder so try to match it, only 100 - 200 mg is needed.
Shooting .22 air rifle pellets out a .22 rim-fire barrel works. I have shot them using normal .22lr cartridges with the bullet removed. I inserted the pellet, then the case of
powder and fired as normal. They work. Buying the heaviest pellets would be best to get at least a little bit of penetration on impact. At 20 or so grains they are still half the
weight of a normal .22 bullet at 40 grains.
ChippedHammer March 21st, 2008, 03:48 AM

Most exotic .22LR round I have seen was one that was completely silent and worked off a special primer compound (no powder). Aside from those and rat shot there is not
much else.
Its just too small to use anything else but bullets.
Mr Science - Can you read post edits or did you see my post before I edited it?

The most exotic .22LR round I've seen was a .22LR shotshell.
a3990918 March 25th, 2008, 04:19 PM

The most exotic .22LR round I've seen was a .22LR shotshell.
I have a tube of "caseless" .22cal Ammo.

Thanks for the replies, although I'm specifically looking for ammo that will be easy to find/make in a country that only allows blanks of this caliber.
I'm aware of using a blank behind a .22 bullet and this is most definitely possible here.
What is the "caseless" ammo? I've seen charges and bullets wrapped in thick paper before, but I would have thought that it would be very difficult with .22LR due to the rim?

Is the caseless tube a .22LR round?
I don't think so...

That's what I thought. I've seen caseless rounds, but I would have thought that even if you could make them in .22LR, the rim would be extremly fragile to say the least.
a3990918 March 25th, 2008, 07:35 PM

Is the caseless tube a .22LR round?
I don't think so...
??? I said "I have a tube of "caseless" .22cal Ammo.", not I have a "caseless" tube. Please make sure to read the post correctly before trying to correct someone.
but I would have thought that even if you could make them in .22LR, the rim would be extremly fragile to say the least.
What rim? These are basically a .22LR bullet with a tapered, powder filled, paper body. Looks kind-a-sorta like a minature short, stumpy .54 Burnside round . I was told back in
1977 that these were an experimental ammo being developed by Daisy (yes, of BB gun fame).
I only mentioned these rounds in response to the comment on Exotic .22lr ammo, was not trying to insinuate that they would be appropriate for your needs or that the round
was a .22LR round.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Hypothetically how can someone
with limited tools make ammunition from scratch?
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scratch?
No-one April 19th, 2008, 08:17 AM

I am 17 (I remembered by age for once :) ) and based in England where gun are pretty much illegal without crap loads of
licensing and I have no intention breaking the law. At this moment in time knowledge is not illegal and I have always been
curious in such matters.
Now I have a mini-lathe with reasonably adequate tools and moderate skill. I have some experience in casting and making
green sand molds and plaster and good knowledge on pyrotechnics as I have many friends in the business. As well I am
studying Maths, chemistry, Physics and D&T with a B grade predicted.
Setting the standard I am going to ask how to make .45ACP rounds but really it just the process I am interested in rather than
any particular type but if we say suitable for the 1911 it probably gives people an idea of what I mean.
What I want to know is with the knowledge and resources available to me would it be possible to make said items and also
how it would be done quickly and cheaply. I want to know how to make the lot case, primer, bullet and propellant so all
information is good
I would like to emphasize this now I have no intention of making said rounds as I have seen what can happen when messing
around with just cardboard tubes and pyrotechnic powders and subbing the card for metal sort of puts me off...
But any info regarding the subject would be much appreciated.
I had an idea for bullet molds. Since you are pouring only low MP metals ie lead could you not use plaster of parris as a mold.
Forming such molds would be easy and cheap and hard wearing. Simply turning a bullet on lathe would act as the mold for the
mold and then you put aluminum plate 1/2 of the diameter of your bullet with a hole cut out in the profile of the bullet and
the pour plaster parris on. and then add a release agent like Vaseline as you make up the other side removing the ali plate
and sprues (dowel rod) and pour plaster on the other side then side and then before prying apart drill locating holes.
Molds would need fully drying in an oven before use each time but would be also then pre-heated.
Plaster of parris gives a smooth finish and dries quickly so is a good choice give me feedback please on thoughts.
megalomania April 20th, 2008, 06:46 AM

The English do love to disarm their people, that didn't end so well 231 years ago over here.
First of all you will learn nothing of use from the math, chemistry, and physics they teach in school, particularly at the high
school level (or whatever they call it in the UK). The information you seek is definitely not on any curriculum.
Your first bet would be to obtain expended shells and try to make them into bullets again. Reloaded bullets can be
dangerous, but you are talking about a suituation with no alternative.
The primer and propellant is probably the easiest to make. With the right machine tools the casings could be manufactured.
You won't learn any machining skills from math and physics either...
I believe the French resistance made their own ammo during WWII. They hid away machining equipment in basements. Bullet
cartridges have been around for nearly 150 years, if they could make them then, they can surely be made now.

I would kindly like to thank you for your input. I could not agree more with you on the disarming point as gun crime has
actually increased since new laws have been introduced. I am however like I say not interested (at this moment) at producing
said ammo but rather the process in which I would go about it from scratch should I need to.
I went to my friends house (a licensed Pyrotechnic) where I produced various primers and propellants with commonly available
materials from the Homemade ammo book (found on the FTP) so this part I have down. What I would like to know with the
idea of hopefully compiling a book (with intention to place it on the FTP) in order to aid others in how to make the other parts
such as cases and jacketed bullets with out having to buy specialized equipment (if this means fabricated tools this is fine)
and then how to assemble with the idea of using commonly available scrap. For me this would preferably be aluminum and
copper nut I do have some brass and lead also available too.
When it comes to machining I have made most of the parts required in quite a few of Bill Holmes books although never done
final assembly before destroying the parts and when it comes to casting I am no noob as I have made several of the castings
required for a gingery lathe for a friend. Needless to say my actual skills on a lathe could be much desired but I Intend to
improve these over the up and coming summer with work experience and a metal engineers shop (a similar technique I used
to learn to code.)
I look forward to any suggestion and am keen t become a contributing member of this community,
No-one
Charles Owlen Picket April 20th, 2008, 10:34 AM

In the USA the re-loading of ammo or the hand-loading of specific designs of ammo is close to an art with the proliferation of
very well designed machines for the production of same. The components are sold and the product is actually factory
competitive.
I agree with Mega and would add that with this proliferation it may be VERY possible to get some of the useful items with little
or no notice to your island nation.
Your Nannys are looking for completed materials. What's more they many not know what an item actually does. There are
sources for tools that a customs inspector might be baffled by.
Obtain a quality book on hand-loading ammo written in America and study it. It will give you the leg up you'd need to compile
the hard to find materials that you could not make. What's more those books often have sources in which you could use to
further your little factory. There are many pulp magazines with which sales of components (to anywhere) would be easily
accomplished (Gun List, ShotGun News).

I could not agree with megalomania more on our ridiculously tight weapon laws especially since firearm related crime has seen
a rise in recent years due to cheap illegal imports from Poland. However, I am not (at the moment) trying to manufacture said
round but more interested in the general process from scratch with ease without having to buy specialized equipment
(fabricating such is not a problem).
I have had actually now had experience of mixing primer and propellants due to a fully licensed pyrotechnic mate of mine
from common ingredients... (Would chemicals be better?? after all we are not making a cake here) based on the homemade
ammo guide on the FTP and various other explosive recipes known between us (the licensing was too expensive for me (as I
would need better insurance too) so I basically abuse hers ;) ). So this area I have down.
What I am looking to do is to write a e-book for the FTP in order for people like me to maybe have some fun without drawing
too much attention to ourselves or spending a fortune on setup costs... (or my personal reasons are that should I need it I
know how to make it quickly and with ease.)
One expensive option is buying inert ammo and going from there... but large quantities are hard to get and very expensive.
I have had considerable experience in casting making most of the parts for the gingery lathe for a friend (I have a mini-lathe
which suits me fine (at the moment)) and also experience in making the parts for various bill holmes books (but have never
assembled the parts before destroying them) and replacing them with castings rather than weldings where possible.
My lathe skills are much yet to be desired and I have not finished my CNC router nor is this an Item commonly available to
people yet my lathe skills hopefully will increase when do some work experience at a local metal engineer shop over the
summer which was the way I learned C coding...
I would prefer methods involving aluminum or copper as I seem to have an abundance of the stuff and is easy for people in
the UK (and probably other places) to get hold off... but brass and lead our not out of the question...
I hope this gives enough information and I look forward to hearing from you and in the not to distant future hopefully
contributing to the forum rather just sharing your knowledge,
Kind regards,
No-one
mike-hunt April 20th, 2008, 09:25 PM

If you already haven't done so the following E-Books are worth looking at I cant give the download addresses as I got them
both in bulk downloads.
Homemade guns and homemade ammo Ronald B Brown (info on propellants and primers)
Philip Luty Expedient home made ammo (Homemade tools and shells and alternative priming methods.)
A video is available on reloading at the pirate bay that may also be helpful.
http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4070876/Competition_Reloading_with_Brian_Enos
Good luck
No-one April 21st, 2008, 08:13 AM

Thanks and will do...
does anyone know if producing the components for a round is illegal as long as I do not assemble them... This I think will be
the only way for me to get photos of the process and then see if I can find someone to test them for me... (I have a maths
teacher with .22 rifle in his loft so maybe he may be able to give them a spin (no punn intended ) :) ).
I hank you for your help as I disappear for a few days reading and watching the material...
On a side note does anyone know any good videos/guides for building a 1911 from scratch (read as not buying any
components).
I am hoping to get a milling machine soon of a friend who is clearing out his old workshop (unsure of specs/details) and was
wanting to have a go at creating some components for it even if (very reluctantly) I have to destroy it...
There are a lot of raids where I live for not really guns but bombs as I live close to the place where the London bombers came
from so everything has to be done on tippy toes as no doubt they are looking for anyone suspicious. Maybe (if someone lives
in the uk with suitable licensing) ship the parts i make to someone who could assemble it and test it out for me.. (The other
option may be to construct a suppressor but that would be getting into dodginess beyond extreme then if I get caught... or
not test it all which is probably what I will do and just destroy the parts...).
I know i am probably getting ahead of myself as I have virtually no experience with a milling machine and I guessing
considerable skill would be required for said project but again any help on these points would be fab.
Cheers,
No-one
megalomania April 21st, 2008, 12:08 PM

What is legal depends on you location. They arrested that boy in England last year just for possessing a book, so I would be
wary if I were you. I would not think having a bullet casing without propellant would be a crime, but neither would I think a boy
with a book is a criminal.
No-one April 21st, 2008, 02:47 PM

Hi, I know the story you on about... What you kind of left out was the fact of the potassium nitrate and calcium chloride with
various links to terrorist organizations and video of beheading's and trips to Pakistan...
Of this how much is fabricated evidence (which does happen) I don't know but living close to Ravensthorpe, I have not known
of past raids and most likely he was a serious terror threat...
I myself can still easily buy all required things to make blasting caps and plastic explosive and not raise any suspicion and
seriously doubt I would get arrested for having cases consindering the amount of inert ammo lying around...
I myself (like I am sure many of you do) have a copy of the anarchist cookbook (the book in question) but a car can be used
for a car bombing (an instrument of terror) but until that point it it is just a car. I guess it was the accumulation of all the other
stuff with probably led to his subsequent arrest. That being said the anarchist cookbook is quite outdated with little on
detonating the acclaimed recipe he was making "How to Make a Plastic Explosive" which I believe is the 3rd or 4th article in
(been about 4 years since I looked at that last ;-) )...
I am still having difficulty on finding information on manufacturing cases but I may try reverse engineer some inert ammo to
cast some cases out of aluminum using the reverse engineered round as a mold to make some plaster of Paris molds.... any
info on cases full stop (how they are made in industry (video and good illustrated articles)) would be of great help.
Also if anyone has any info on jacketed rounds would be kindly appreciated...
Also where could I look at getting resizers and presses from... not critical as thanks to mike-hunt (nice name btw I teased with
idea of Issac-hunt) suggestions of books but they look a bit slow and would like to see if I can improvise a design which would
slightly faster but easy to still make.
Cheers once again you have all been a great help,
No-one
Charles Owlen Picket April 22nd, 2008, 11:18 AM

I try to keep up with world news & I think that the concept of firearms coming from Poland, fascinating. I would have thought
that (the old) Yugoslavia would have been a favoured place but that's a moot point. If you could get expended casings, I
think the rest is a cake-walk.
With expended casing you have the hardest things to make available: the casing itself & the primer cup. Even if it's a Berdan
primer design you could still make them function. You have two basic primer designs: Boxer & Berdan. The Boxer primer uses
a self contained unit with it's own anvil to initiate the round. The Berdan unit works with the casing to provide the anvil/flash
hole as a unit. What is needed is a method to rid the used primer of the burnt material. Any simple technique would suffice.
Re-filling the primer with a chlorate composition would work as flash is the goal not detonation per se'. The chore would be how
to deal with the dented primer cup. If all you had to work with was a bear minimum of reloading materials it would be a
challenge but it could be done. Giving enough time the primer could be reshaped. We are actually talking about a half hour's
worth of effort to manufacture one round; but with pyrotechnic materials and some form of propellant, you would achieve
success. In fact if you were to examine used primers that are pulled from expended rounds by a "de-priming tool" you'd see
that the dent had been reversed. The anvil would have to be replaced after reloading the primer with composition to insure
impact against the chlorate + whatever primer composition.
However, if you had absolutely nothing to work with then the idea would be to make the casing & primer in one. Very small-
scale lathe work on this level is common place. You simply form a case with a thickened web area and a completed face that
has no primer hole but rather a very thin surface in which the firing pin would dent the metal, impacting sensitive chlorate-
composition. Such a thing would be a casing former of varying widths of metal to allow for firing pin impact to the bottom of
the case wherein a primer base composition would be placed.
This whole topic is very opinionated but I believe that expended cases would make the effort to complete the rounds quite
easy, compared to working from scratch. Does no source exist for expended rounds? Since literally billions of rounds have
been manufactured in the world and the world is getting to be such a small place; there must be some source for even
expended rounds....Or are we dealing with the hypothetical issue of nothing being available what so ever?
neetje April 22nd, 2008, 03:35 PM

It's not so strange that most firearms in the UK come from Poland. It's not so hard anymore to cross the border into Germany
since Poland joined the EU. They also have reasonably simple gun laws. Most of the former Soviet states enforce strict gun
laws, because it was usual in the Soviet Union. Poland is an exception to this.
iHME April 23rd, 2008, 03:16 PM

I might find my self planing trip to Poland in the future :P Jokes aside on the black market guns are very easy to find in the
east-europe. A friend of mine was on a trip in Budabest, on a local market he traveled deeper inside, and surprise surprise!
There were loads of guns for sale on the back. It's probably more about where to look and in Poland you don't need to look
far perhaps this is why the most of guns come from there.
Jacks Complete April 23rd, 2008, 08:44 PM

Ok, UK law time again.
Reloading presses and dies are legal; empty or primed cases are legal; primers are legal, but you need a license to buy
them; bullet heads are legal, unless they are expanding (varmint or hollow point) types; powder is legal if it is nitro or
pyrodex, illegal if it is BP of any form. Finished ammo is obviously illegal unless you have a certificate covering that specific
type of round, and you are not over your holding limit.
Any part of a firearm that contains pressure, except for a moderator, is illegal, with a 5 year mandatory min. Moderators are
illegal unless on a license. However, they are freely allowed on air rifles, so you are ok if you keep them clean and for .177
and .22 calibres.
HTH.
MAGNUM9987 April 28th, 2008, 10:46 PM
I would suggest learning how to simply role your own ammo. Their are plenty of books available for it, and any old fashioned
gun collector could teach you to roll your own ammo. If you would like i could mail you spent cartridges, though they are
winchester .45. I collect shells on the side.
lucas May 2nd, 2008, 03:31 PM

Lathe turned cases can work for low pressure cartridges like pistol cartridges but they are inferior to proper drawn cartridges.
The working processes that form a normal brass cartridge work harden the head area and leave the neck area soft. The head
must be hard to avoid deformation and the neck soft to stretch out and seal the cartridge against the chamber. Lathe turned
cartridges will likely experience head expansion and weakening. This means possible gas leaking around the primer pocket or
other problems like head separation. These problems are much more likely at higher pressures. They would be best used
once or twice only, unlike commercial brass, which if used gently can be used dozens of times. Since pistol cartridges are low
pressure relative to rifle cartridges, it's likely that a well turned case will be safe and effective over its short lifetime of one or
two uses at moderate pressure.
That said, many components for reloading are legal to buy without a licence and all the equipment is likely to be legal in your
jurisdiction, meaning lathe turned cases are unnecessary. India prohibits hand loading cartridges, but I don't know of any
other countries where hand loading is banned.
Obtaining primers and powder is likely the hardest part of loading.
One primer composition which could be used is a mixture of:

Potassium chlorate, ~ 65%
Sulphur ~ 30%
Shellac~ 5%
Mixed and wetted with methylated spirits, this sticks and is sensitive to percussion.
Reloading old primers is feasible. Popping out the anvil is easy. Flatten the primer strike with a steel rod and mallet. Add a
primer compound. Reinsert the anvil. Clean your gun after firing because the chlorate is corrosive. Match heads of the strike
anywhere type are well documented to work in reloaded primers.
Lead bullets are easy to cast and most of the equipment is cheap too. Quality isn't easy to achieve, but most people cant
shoot a pistol straight anyway. For rifles, only low speed cartridges suit lead projectiles, like 44-40, 32-20 and others originally
made for black powder.
MinorFunctionary May 5th, 2008, 02:03 AM

One should also remember that boxer and berdan primers are not readily interchangable. Boxer primers are most common in
the US. Berdan primers are most common in Europe in general and most specifically in the military surplus from Europe and
Asia.
Boxer primers are similar to Berdan primers with the major difference being the location of the anvil. In a Boxer primer, the
anvil is a separate piece that sits in the primer cup.
Berdans have the anvil built into the case itself.
IF available, 30-06 can be cut down and used for 45-acp brass in a pinch. Tolerances in used cases push very close to the 45
demensions and usuially cycle ok.
The cartridge dimensions are listed on Wikapedia and seem correct at this time.
And yes, lower pressure pistol cases can be turned on a lathe from brass or even Al.
If you have a lathe, mild steel or even cast iron blocks are fairly simple to machine into acceptable bullet molds (moulds) I
also have several acceptable molds made from brass.
No good for target but good for plinking (shooting cans) and small game.
Search the web for a few images.
Dont forget that your lead alloy will shrink as it cools.
jamamee May 5th, 2008, 05:33 PM

Jack Complete will probably be able to give a definitive answer on this but; I'm pretty sure shotguns are pretty easy to get
hold of (in the UK) as long as you're 18 and don't have any criminal convictions, for violent crimes anyway. And I mean really
easy (compared to trying to get something similar around here) just need to tell some pen pusher you're going clay pigeon
shooting or something.
If you really don't want to break the law surely this would be a better option....
Asriel May 5th, 2008, 11:41 PM

Honestly, making ammo from scratch is probably a bad idea if you value your fingers. Most of the time I've heard about
people trying to make ammo from complete scratch it's ended in serious injury and/or the loss of one or more digits. Overall,
it's probably better to either do without, or try something else, I believe shotguns aren't particularly harshly regulated over
there. If you MUST try and make ammo try and find a workshop, not just in your basement.
Jacks Complete May 13th, 2008, 05:59 PM

jamamee, I wouldn't say "Easy". However, if you are prepared to put up with the cost of a safe, the home visit(s), giving all
your details to the police, getting referees, etc., etc. then yes, get a license.
For making your own bullet heads, lead is indeed easy to cast. Moulds are findable, or you can make them. As a child I made
one from a brick that I shattered in half then clamped together (with my feet) and drilled into on the line. This gave me a
fairly accurate 17mm hole into which I could pour lead for shotgun slugs (Also illegal in the UK without a firearms certificate,
your Shotgun certificate won't cover them!)
I'd not go firing these soft lead heads out of a rifle unless you are desperate, though. Anything high powered will end up
spitting a spray of molten lead about 50 feet. Go for soft loads (search this site) if using lead bullets and a rifle.
You can drill the base out of a berdan primed case and fit a shotgun primer into it. Powers a lead slug quite well, and very
quietly, without the risk of a silencer.
However, as of last year, they banned primer sales without an FAC, so you will still struggle.
-=HeX=- May 14th, 2008, 12:24 PM

I would like to share my knowledge of in law in ireland. It is not a subject I am an expert on but I know enough for any irish
members to get the gist. Guns are normally considered bad and illegal here but in recent years the law has actually been
relaxed.
Hand loading is now legal under your licence, handguns are legal, silencers are legal on certain calibres. to get a gun you in to
the gunstore (duffys in galway www.shoot.ie) and ask for the gun. Then you go to the police and ask for the licence for that
gun. They review your situation and decide wether you are fit to own the gun. Then you give your licence to mr duffy and he
gets your gun for you. I can get a folding stock, pistol grip mini 14 in .22 with no problem and even silence it.
That is the basics of irish gun law. Go to www.shoot.ie for more info.
Jacks Complete May 14th, 2008, 05:23 PM

-=HeX=-,
Can you confirm whether .22 ammo is freely available over there at the moment?
I know that the Northern Ireland laws are stupidly strict. You have to have an FAC for anything, even sub-12ft-lb air rifles!
-=HeX=- May 14th, 2008, 06:58 PM

To buy .22 ammo you must jump through a fairly irritating hoop. You must bring your licence to the gunshor, they verify it,
then they sell you the ammo. Not too bad but not exactly easy. I have a friend who sells arms and that is how he is supposed
to sell the ammo.
Jacks Complete May 17th, 2008, 11:28 AM

That's a no then... :-(
Roughly the same restrictions as here, though in the UK you have to have a record kept (written on the license), and you can
only buy the calibre and type of ammo you are allowed, and you mustn't go over your holding allowance either.
ChippedHammer May 18th, 2008, 03:20 AM

And I thought it was bad here, all thats required here is that you show your liscense and you can buy as much ammunition as
you want for your liscense type (If you have a license that only allows rimfire rifles and shotguns then you cannot buy
centerfire munitions and vice versa)
There is nothing stopping you from buying a bullet press, primers, brass, projectiles and powder to make your own
ammunition in any caliber you want. Strictly speaking you are supposed to show a liscense when buying primers and powder
but its often overlooked.
Jacks Complete May 18th, 2008, 06:47 AM

Well, the law was tightened last year to stop people buying primers without a license, too.
gabriel728 May 23rd, 2008, 06:45 AM

Hi No-One !
Here is something for you: the complete blueprint of the M1911A1 pistol...including the case!
http://rapidshare.com/files/116973699/1911_complete_blueprints.PDF.html
Anyway, if somebody here has a location in central Europe where I can find some mmmmh you know what, I will be interested.
No-one July 2nd, 2008, 04:31 PM

Long time i Know but been busy with all kinds of stuff...
I would just like to say that every one has been amazing in the info they have given and legal advice.
Its not so much the fact I can't get holds of stuff for the making of rounds cases included as innert rounds can be bought or
either propper munitions supplies.
On top I know of quite a few black market people who offer guns and rounds to loan and buy.
However, like I am sure any free man (especially with this new bullshit extend to 42 day law (dont get me started ;-))) they
like to know if the shit hits the fan that they have the ability or access to weapons.
I am also aware that (through various years of doing model rocketry in the UK (where it is easier to get BP for guns than it is
for rocket ejection or ignition charges (due to manufacturing a potential weapon(bloody hell what alot of brackets)))) that
manufacture of all components are perfectly legal for both weapons and munition in the uk as long as NOT ASSEMBLED.
Anyhow, I have since made plaster of paris bullet molds using very simple turnings to act as a mould for the plaster and
poured some rather nice castings from them.. the trick is to bake it in the oven before use.
Anyhow, next casings... ;-)
Does anyone know how these are made in industry? If so is this method easy to reproduce at home with some jiggery pokery?
?
Okay
Cheers again for all the help :)
You have all been fantastic in your help
P.s As for losing my fingers a couple of years back I cut of my thumb with an axe and as much as we all love to hate the NHS
they did an exceptional job of reattacthing it with no loss of functionality and little scarring :).
But also I am a very careful person anyhow and as such would if I were to actually load any rounds take full and propper
safety measures rather than having to pick out bits of shrapnell from my palms again. (long story (another time :) ) )
Okay Thanks all again :)
MinorFunctionary September 11th, 2008, 09:07 PM

No-one
The cases made comercially are mostly drawn brass, some specialty cases are lathe turned, but that is not common.
If you havent already, search the forum for "P. A. Luty". His work might answer your fabrication questions.

You have to have a license to purchase primers, the law now mandates it be seen by the seller.
As for how the cases are made in the factory, it's a 20+ step process that starts with a stamped brass blank of (for RG brass at
least) a 30/70 mix. (The bullet heads are 10/90)
This is pressed/punched a large number of times, and washed between each one, and eventually it is formed into a full case.
The neck is then trimmed down to the required length. This is far beyond anything that anyone could do at home, as it
requires a large number of steps and a large number of custom made machine tools, even if you've got a large press handy.
You'll do better either lathing a case, or going scavenging. Don't forget you an often "fireform" a case from a smaller size up
to the size you want.

This doesn't apply to the OP's request for scratch building .45 ACP ammo, but if one were to want to start from scratch and
build a gun/cartridge, I'd have to suggest they build a black-powder-type revolver.
I say "type", because there's really no reason that smokeless couldn't be used in a metallurgically sound design.
In this build the cylinder would be, in essence, the "case" of the shell; that is, it would contain the powder, bullet, and be
ignited w/a BP-type percussion cap. Just as a BP gun is.
In a simplified form, a revolver cylinder need not be rotated and indexed internally. The cylinder could be rotated by hand,
with a simple pawl-like arrangement to locate the cylinder in proper timing.
To facilitate rapid reloading, several preloaded cylinders would be needed, and a design that allowed easy removal and
replacement. And practice!
If girth wasn't a consideration, there's also no reason that a 8 or 10 round cylinder couldn't be made, giving the gun the
capacity approaching some autoloaders. But that would really start to get heavy and concealment goes out the door...
Another design option would be to use an inline cylinder- actually not a cylinder at all, but a side-by-side arrangement. This
would be inserted from one side and exit the other, horizontally.
Truth be known, there IS a smokeless powder that can be used in most GOOD BP arms, but I'm not gonna divulge it here,
because it could cause some unsafe experimentation.
But, as I said earlier, there's really no good reason that smokeless couldn't be made to work in a "case-less", BP-style design.
iHME September 19th, 2008, 05:39 PM

The main mechanism that revolves the cylinder in a revolver is damn hard to make, thats why people are not making them at
home, unlike 1911's and other auto's.
Making the cylinder line up perfectly is hard for the amateur.

A single shot BP design is very doable, and if muzzleloading also legal to own in every us state IIRC.
I don't live in the us so don't take my word as solid legal advice, ok?

The main mechanism that revolves the cylinder in a revolver is damn hard to makeI agree. Thus:
"In a simplified form, a revolver cylinder need not be rotated and indexed internally. The cylinder could be rotated by hand,
with a simple pawl-like arrangement to locate the cylinder in proper timing."
Perfect alignment would be nice, but isn't a necessity. That's a function of the forcing cone.
The revolver was mentioned in my earlier post as a means of getting around making metallic cartridges.:)
iHME September 29th, 2008, 05:08 PM

I agree. Thus:
"In a simplified form, a revolver cylinder need not be rotated and indexed internally. The cylinder could be rotated by hand,
with a simple pawl-like arrangement to locate the cylinder in proper timing."
Exactly! Apparently I finally have to put my design on paper for other members to see. If I manage to design it correctly it
should be doable with only a lathe and basic hand tools. Simplicity is the key as is ease of manufacture.
If/when I draw up some basic prints I'll make a separate thread. (Not to derail this thread)
PYRO500 September 29th, 2008, 09:20 PM

Why not stick with a pepperbox design? a "revolver" with a different barrel for each load, it is supposed to be crude, thus a
close in belly gun right? It need not be heavy, nor reloadable, in such a situation where an improvised weapon would be
needed, it might be better to dispose of the weapon immediately after its use (a real world spy scenario carried out many
times) Most "close encounters" don't involve reloading or great accuracy.

A pepperbox is a valid design, as you state. Or a ducksfoot. But we're getting more and more OT since my post #30, being
that the original concept was to manufacture .45 ACP-like ammo from scratch. And a gun to match the ammo, I'd imagine.
But the OP hasn't posted since July and that was a farewell of sorts, so maybe it doesn't matter too much if we stray?
iHME October 2nd, 2008, 07:24 PM

Tough this is not exactly what the topic is about, I'd say that is fits here quite well.
Electrically fired .45ACP rounds. Diy style.
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=101;t=20782;st=0
Jacks Complete October 4th, 2008, 07:45 AM

If you can use electrics, you are going to have an easier time of it for a simple one-time gun. Also be useful for boobytraps
and NBK's telesniper.
If you want to make a revolver index correctly, it's not very hard. Take a cylinder and drill the 6(?) holes for the chambers, and
while you do this, add 6 small blind holes. Once the gun is being built, you add a sprung ball bearing detent into the space
under the barrel, which simply clicks solidly into those six blind holes. Simple to ensure it all lines up now!
Having the arm to index when you cock the hammer is done using a linked arm. It simply pushes hard to start the rotation,
and a little further, which will ensure the relatively heavy cylinder continues to rotate until it locks into place for the next shot.
Just don't make the arm too long so it overshoots the cylinder, but you can easily machine little off. I'd probably use two
arms, one short to push hard, and a longer lighter one to "kick" the cylinder around far enough.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > correct amount of primer and powder
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bobo April 26th, 2008, 08:41 PM

In order to improvise ammo from scratch, the obviously best choice is to use blanks for the primer. However, making lead styphnate or azide or mercury fulminate holds no
real challenge, thus starting without blanks should be possible. The question that I do not find answered, is how much primer to use. Is this a critical thing or do we just pour in
some primer, pressurize it and see if it explodes nicely? I suppose, if I test it dry and the case does not break then the amount is all right, is this OK?
Charles Owlen Picket April 27th, 2008, 12:07 PM

This is a VERY complex query. The concept is to utilize the nitric esters as propellants NOT as explosives. The use of primers (in context) is to induce flame - NOT induce
detonation. That is why certain materials are used; ones that produce flame spit not detonation wave.
Ratio & proportioning is inter-related to this concept. Read the patents on firearms primers and you will notice a pattern of innovation in the primer. The issues are IMPACT
initiation & resultant flame. NOT detonation wave. The anvil (Boxer) in the primer or casing (in a Berdan unit) is designed to accomplish more than just impact initiation but to
channel the flame to the propellant.
The unspoken issue is that NG & NC is an explosive but may be induced to propel a bullet*. The dependent factor is the type of initiation and the ratio of materials in the space
provided. Too little "propellant" in too large a space may induce an explosion. What is sought is to BURN the material to provide gases.
Many of the older patent provide clues to this end. There are few hard & fast rules as cartridges & chambers vary. Begin with a book on re-loading and understand the concept
from a (home) factory standpoint. Find out what NOT to do. Then extrapolate what is needed. It is best to begin with too little primer so as to insure a BURNING process.
Interdependent factors include; chamber size, bullet weight/design, powder composition/design, barrel length/diameter, & rifling. There is a problematic situation that is called
"detonation" in hand-loading circles. This is when too little powder exists in a casing and there is a resulting catastrophic explosion. Research this phenomenon & you will have
a lot of material to base further extrapolations on. This is an involved science & there is no pat, easy answer to this query.
As a very gross generality; it's better to use too little primer than too much. Do not use primary materials that result in sharp detonation waves. That is why lead styphnate and
tetrazene are often mainstays of the materials used. Powdered glass is added to increase both impact sensitivity and to moderate hot spot detonation plume.
* When canister powders are sold in the EU they are marked as explosives. When sold in the USA they are not. This is an issue of politics. Reading materials from certain
factories one can see how the issues are skirted due to the inference that only firearms primers will be used to initiate. Source sited is REX shotgun powder, made in Hungary &
associated written material & packaging (2005).
But in fact if a detonation wave material was involved, the canister powders will detonate very, very well.
tomu April 28th, 2008, 06:54 AM

Be careful if you use the NC-powder from blanks. It's really fast in fact it is faster burning thn any powder used in reloading.
A far better choice would be the powder used in cartouches for bolt fastening guns like HILTI or similar.
Well you can not overload a primer, there is not much volume in the primer case. Just experiment. But if you use blanks as a powder source you got the primers already, don't
you?
bobo April 28th, 2008, 07:53 PM

The point of this question is not: "i want to play with ammo and want the quickest way to get it", rather, "I want to be able to source all components from scratch and do it
right". It is best if I can relate any home made chemical to more common products. Given the fact that all parts are available without too much trouble, it is my intention to
experiment with commercial powder, homemade powder and powder from the blanks to compare, as well as figure out how to do the caps from scratch.
I have confidence in my abilities and equipment in the chemistry department, and produce clean powder and primary. The engineering department is a different story, hence
this question.
As for the primers. I have read that mercury fulminate primers used to be mixed with chlorates. I am also aware that there is an empty space between propellant and primary
to facilitate flaming. Probably this will also function to make sure the unavoidable detonation wave does not hit the propellant. It is as if a shock sensitive flash powder would
do the job as well...
As for the propellant. You mention the nitroglycerin powder. Is this good for small arms ammo? I was led to believe that the common types of smokeless powder are NC with
some additive in the % range, or single-base. In something goes wrong with the loading then I do not want to hold a cartridge that detonates its propellant instead of just
burns it.
Given the complexity of this matter, does this mean I should at least start out with a commercial reloading set and substitute with home-made stuff only after mastering the
process?
Charles Owlen Picket April 29th, 2008, 10:48 AM

process?
Unquestionably, yes.
NG exists within the double-based smokeless powder (DBSP) but not as a separate dry powder; - as an absorbed material with the polymer matrix of the powder granules (a
misnomer, as they are often extruded, etc - a whole other subject).
Realistically the more you read about hand loading the closer you'll get to what you want to achieve. And frankly don't get a majority of information from internet sources:
some of the most boneheaded slathering shovelfuls of bullshit I have ever read have existed from the local "retired Navy SEAL TEAM Six guys".
Generalist perspectives should mostly steer you to further reading and have sources sited. Hand loading is an area where you are really working with professional level nitric
esters & the resultant pitfalls......Good luck & use caution.
tomu April 30th, 2008, 01:44 PM

Making your own NC-Powder is a real challenge and you can't use any data from reloading charts because the characteristics of your homebrew powder would be different
from any of the manufacturers.
Many NC-Powders are double-based powders especially the powders used for handguns. They contain different percentages of Nitroglycerin, as well as phlegmatizers,
stabilizers and burn inhibitors and have a certain geometric to achieve the desired burn rate and pressure curve. Have fun!
You have to test the performance and characteristics of your powder by yourself. I wouldn't use a gun for this but would make my own test device from very strong and tough
chrome-molybdenum or chrome-nickel steel with a wall thickness of several centimeters at the breech.
Btw. you don't want the steel to be hard, chambers and barrels usually have a hardness of around HRC 30 or even below, you don't want to be showered with shrapnell if
anything goes terribly wrong. .
Be especially careful with high pressure cartridges like 9 mm Luger, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum etc. or any rifle ammo.
Learn to read the signs the brass shells show after firing, look for signs of excessive pressure. Like flattend firing pin intentations, cratering around the firing pin intentation,
enlarged primer pockets, bulged or split brass shells etc.
Cobalt.45 July 12th, 2008, 08:12 PM

process?
As an aside here, handloading need not be a overly expensive undertaking, equipment-wise. Lee markets a very inexpensive cartridge reloading tool called (appropriately
enough) the Lee Loader. Sells for around $30 and has what is needed to reload a cartridge.
See: http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1215902626.4071=/html/catalog/cleeloader.html
A down side to this tool is that it's slow. And resizing straight-walled shells will get old pretty quick because of the force required and lack of leverage the tool affords.
Primers can cause a fairly wide variation in pressures generated in reloaded shells, given their small overall charge contribution. If you were on the edge, pressure-wise, a
change in primers could help (or hurt) the situation.
lucas July 29th, 2008, 11:25 AM

I would recommend starting with about 5mg of primer composition for small primers and 10mg for large primers. I'd suggest a simple binder like shellac or red-gum would be
ideal. Nitrocellulose lacquer would be worth considering maybe, but I'd try to keep the binder to a minimum. The use of "old fashioned mixtures" is probably worth
investigating. Mercury fulminate with 20% chlorate is a good mixture if a little toxic and corrosive. Proper cleaning and ventilation during use should be standard practice
anyway. Initiation should be always done with the lowest power primer that is reliable. That applies to reloading with commercial components and should be applied to re-
manufactured primers and custom primers.
drsx November 6th, 2008, 06:30 PM

The question that I do not find answered, is how much primer to use.
I would recommend starting with about 5mg of primer composition for small primers and 10mg for large primers.
Once I was the opportunity to weigh a primer before and after firing. The primer was Cheddite Clerinox .209 shotshell primer. The primer fired from an otherwise empty, open
shotgun shell (uncrimped shell without powder, without shot and without wads). Weight of primer before firing: 0.80 gram, weight of primer after firing: 0.75 gram, the scale I
used was a cheap digital scale with 0.01 gram accuracy.
Wallybanger November 16th, 2008, 10:25 PM

You would be surprised how much your primer can change your chamber pressures. A hot primer can easily take a mid range load to dangerously high pressures. KABOOMS
generally aren't a lot of fun and there are lots of videos on the net of people's faces being shredded.
First of all, I would recommend picking up a reloading manual and learning about different loads, cartridges and ballistics.
Secondly, I would recommend NOT reinventing the wheel and to try to replicate an existing, low pressure cartridge. .45ACP might be a good starting point.
finally, I would say that the amount of primer compound wouldn't be as important as the consistency from primer to primer. If you have one primer/cartridge and it blows up,
no problem (assuming you're not holding the firearm). If you have multiple primers that are inconsistent, you may get false sense of security from early success and then
proceed to blow your face off.
Be careful. Don't underestimate the amount of pressure inside the chamber of a gun.
Are you wanting this for a SHTF scenario? Hunting? Self defense? You may want SP for fighting but good old BP would be fine for hunting and casual self defense. Does it have
to be a cartridge? How about looking into a percussion cap musket using BP? You could cast your own lead balls and everything.
TThere is a problematic situation that is called "detonation" in hand-loading circles. This is when too little powder exists in a casing and there is a resulting catastrophic
explosion.
I know this as "Flash Over". When there isn't enough powder in the case, the surface area of the powder is greatly increased so in stead of a gradual increase in pressure as
the powder burns for end to end, you get all of the powder being ignited at once which is not good.
As an aside here, handloading need not be a overly expensive undertaking, equipment-wise. Lee markets a very inexpensive cartridge reloading tool called (appropriately
enough) the Lee Loader. Sells for around $30 and has what is needed to reload a cartridge.
That's an expensive lee loader. Should be able to get one for $10-$15. They work extremely well for cartridges that don't require full length resizing. I can reload 20rnds in
about 15mins. (I prefer the lee loader over my reloading press for .303Brit as I can get much better accuracy)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Unknown Projectile
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CricketSquish August 10th, 2008, 12:03 AM

A friend of a friend may or may not have a projectile that I do not know of and can't find much info on. It was claimed to be .45 caliber and it was quiet long for an ACP,
maybe it's a .45LC or .45 for black powder. I heard it was made entirely of "Carbon", and it did look dark porous black. Whats special about it is that it was claimed to
fragment 100% even at the low speeds that black powder provides. This was claimed to be verified by that friend.
I did a little prowling and found only like 2 patents talking about projectiles with Tungsten and some other shit I don't remember off hand. The projectile was very heavy also.
Even with the traditional hollow point in it.
Does anyone know what this is? It seems too dense for Carbon so maybe it could be one of these patented projectiles I read of....
Alexires August 15th, 2008, 08:47 AM

Not one of those "Safety Rounds" that they can use on the inside of planes because it fragments so readily?
I've heard they are made of carbon and a kind of resin to hold it together.
festergrump August 15th, 2008, 01:05 PM

That was my first thought, too. A frangible bullet like the Glaser Safety Slug. If not, the color of the projectile leads one to believe it may be coated with Lubalox similar to the
Black Talon projectiles of the 90's, though these weren't meant to fragment completely but provide better expansion in soft targets (flesh). IIRC, this round is discontinued.
Any chance you might get that "friend of a friend" to provide us with a picture, CricketSquish? A really good closeup might really help identify it. A ruler placed alongside the
round in the photo would help even more to identify the casing.
Cobalt.45 August 15th, 2008, 03:32 PM

Any possibility that these rounds could be a sintered ceramic material? I heard somewhere that there were LE-only rounds being developed but heard nothing more about it.
OT, but has anybody ever tried wax bullets backed by thin card-stock and propelled w/a primer ONLY (no powder, I'm leery of too-small loads causing DDT)? These wax
rounds were shot from a borrowed snubby .38 (sorry, J:o). The idea was taken from a GUNS magazine article from the '70's. Talk about frangible!
I used these in my garage to the dismay of anything that walked, crawled or slithered. Not lethal to anything much larger than a mouse (blunt-force trauma) but entertaining
when boredom hits.
I never tried hot-glue bullets- wonder how they would work, being harder than wax or if they would foul the bore. Wax was OK in this regard.
Also wondered about using wax as a sabot for something more lethal but never explored this possibility either.
Jacks Complete August 16th, 2008, 08:41 AM

Wax bullets certainly work, and they need not a lot to make them splat. Gives me an idea for a bio-compatible bullet. Think tallow or even Fight Club. You keep it stored at a
low temperature (far above cryo, unlike the magic "ice bullet")
The fat would dissolve at the 37 degrees of a body, leaving next to no trace, and there would therefore be no ballistics, just a little GSR in the wound.
joffe August 17th, 2008, 02:27 PM

OT, but has anybody ever tried wax bullets backed by thin card-stock and propelled w/a primer ONLY (no powder, I'm leery of too-small loads causing DDT)? These wax
rounds were shot from a borrowed snubby .38 (sorry, J). The idea was taken from a GUNS magazine article from the '70's. Talk about frangible!
Don't know what the article said, so hopefully I'm adding something to this thread. Before simunitions, one had to make one's own ammo. A common way to do that is like
you describe above. Bill Jordan writes about it in his book "No Second Place Winner". Doesn't work well in a pistol, but in a revolver, it works just fine. It hurts when you're hit.
But as long as you wear a face mask, no permant damage is caused. Great fun if you're practicing with a partner.
festergrump August 18th, 2008, 08:37 PM

Cobalt, I just got finished putting a dozen hot-glue balls through a BP revolver and it works like a charm. Those things bounce off of hard targets without fail and I've yet to
find one to examine after impact, but I can tell you that it's fun as hell to shoot as 'quiet' as that.
What I did was drip hot glue into a Lee .454 ball mould and seat each moulded glueball down as far as it would go into each cylinder chamber without any BP at all. One #10
cap per nipple and they really ZING! (sorry, no chronograph). I'll bet they'd hurt like hell if you got struck with one, though.
No plastic fouling of the barrel at all.
Accuracy is not even an issue I can discuss at this time as I'm out of glue temporarily, but Minute of Person at 25 paces, for sure...
(safety glasses are a must and a nutcup might not be a bad idea, either! Youch! :eek:).

Accuracy is not even an issue I can discuss at this time as I'm out of glue temporarily, but Minute of Person at 25 paces, for sure...
(safety glasses are a must and a nutcup might not be a bad idea, either! Youch! :eek:).
Got a good chuckle outta that!
But great that the hot glue doesn't foul the bore- I know what I'll be up to this evening.
I'll also try it with a BP rifle and see if that will work, too. It uses the 209 primer, so it might have enough "oomph" to spit it downrange...:D
486 August 22nd, 2008, 12:26 AM

It was claimed to be .45 caliber and it was quiet long for an ACP, maybe it's a .45LC or .45 for black powder.
If it is rimmed it might be .45 LC, rimless it might be a prototype round that was designed for the Thompson submachine gun. I can't find the name right now, but it was a .45
acp that was about twice as long.
Saying "a friend of a friend" is somewhat more incriminating than saying "I saw in a magazine" or something of the sort. ;)
Cobalt.45 August 22nd, 2008, 02:37 AM

If it is rimmed it might be...Projectile- not round- or the OP wouldn't have posted.
What is curious is the perceived weight. While heavy bullets don't rule out being frangible it is counter-intuitive and would seem to make the job somewhat harder to do.
Alexires August 22nd, 2008, 03:16 AM
Perhaps. Then again, I would have thought that it was intuitive. You are trying to make a round that imparts enough energy to hurt/kill a target, but doesn't penetrate walls/
reactors/submarines/etc. It is easier to double the mass than make the projectile go 4 times faster (Kinetic energy eq.)
A heavier round imparts more energy than a lighter round at the same velocity. Then again, this is only a thought experiment, and I have no idea how different velocity rounds
with the same kinetic energy are for penetration.

I may well be wrong in my assumptions, I have done no testing in this regard myself.
But lighter bullets give up their energy quicker than heavier ones. Combining lighter weight w/a frangible design and higher muzzle velocity would- to me- seem the route to
take, to design a low penetration round that retains some semblance of accuracy.
I'm sure the manufacturers tip-toe the line between weight, penetration, frangibility and accuracy and the case is far from closed when it comes to this technology.
Hitech_Hillbilly August 27th, 2008, 02:24 PM

It's simple physics, for the same velocity, the object with the greater mass will be harder to stop. The object with more mass takes more energy to push to the same velocity
from a physics standpoint, and the mass will determine how quickly it will transfer that energy to the object trying to "stop" it. The materials that make up the object will then
be considered for ductility and malleability, etc. to determine whether it will be frangible, and how much so.

and the mass will determine how quickly it will transfer that energy to the object trying to "stop" it.
Mass has less to do w/the transfer of energy into "flesh and blood" target than construction, within reasonable limits- witness the difference in hollow point as opposed to
jacketed spire point ammo on said target.
PS Thanks for correcting your OP, that E didn't = MC2. I'm glad I'm not the only one that hits the "edit" button.
Hitech_Hillbilly August 27th, 2008, 03:40 PM

Thanks, I'm bad to hit the enter key before I do a sanity check. As to the Mass vs. construction, I agree and disagree at the same time. All else being equal, the smaller mass
object will "dump" it's energy quicker, hence the shock wave that travels through the medium. That being said, I wouldn't rely on that shock wave for lethality only, but would
turn to materials and construction to ensure proper wound characteristics.

Well. How awkward.
It appears that I have had a brain-fart. I retract my statement about mass vs. velocity. Faster bullets would probably be more frangible. I only just reread what I had written
and it makes no sense.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > What to call this besides just an idea
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Slash172 August 20th, 2008, 06:17 PM

If someone were to take a 12gauge slug, 1oz or 4oz, and hollow out the inside, pour in 00buck then liquid Teflon and seal the end with epoxy or whatever, would something
like this be possible and how would it affect trajectory?Would the 00 buck being in a liquid cause the ballistics to change in such a way that the desired target would be missed?
I'm doing some research on hydrostatic shock and the concept of creating a 12gauge round like this came to mind as a possible way to increase that form of shock.
This is just a generalization of an idea not a working concept.
Alexires August 21st, 2008, 02:15 AM

I'd call it a bannable offence, actually.
I've counted 4 pre-existing threads that you could have posted this spoonfeeding newb question in.
I'm doing some research on hydrostatic shock
How about you go do some research on how to follow the fucking rules while you are at it?
486 August 22nd, 2008, 12:15 AM

Wouldn't cutting most of the way through the plastic hull [case] just below the shot, so it breaks away and keeps the shot together to the target do the same thing? You may
need to reinforce the crimp on the end though, and use a cylinder-bore shotgun [no choke].
This was talked about in a book, The Protector, It seems that it would work though.

...hollow out the inside, pour in 00buck...You are (poorly, as noted by our able mod) describing a bastard son of the Glaser Safety Slug.
In the event you are able to still read this, look it up.

Wouldn't cutting most of the way through the plastic hull [case] just below the shot, so it breaks away and keeps the shot together...I doubt that the shot would remain inside
the hull. The hull is larger than even a cylinder-choked tube. That's what slugs are for.
You really can't believe everything you read.
lucas September 14th, 2008, 07:26 AM

The wads in shot-shells are designed to open up after exiting the muzzle and slow down quickly, releasing the shot to fly off. If you were to glue the buckshot together then
you may end up binding it to the wad. Binding the shot to the wad would be bad for ballistics.
The choke in the gun would be critical too. Normal shotgun slugs are only meant to be fired through open chokes like cylinder or skeet. Lead shot is soft and can deform fine
through a tight choke normally, but if confined within a binder, may not compress properly, damaging the choke. The binder would have to be tough enough to survive the
shock of it's acceleration and flexible enough not to cause trouble in the forcing cones or the choke.
I'd suggest only trying with cylinder chocked barrels.
I'd suggest if using a standard wad one try to cover the wad in release compound before binding the shot, removing the bound shot to check it's not stuck to the wad and then
reinserting it. Else use a wad that doesn't enclose the shot, only drive it, like a felt wad used in muzzle loading shotguns.

Cutting halfway through the case will blow the gun to bits, either on the first shot or the second, or after a while when it gets hot and melts to the barrel and sticks there
waiting to block the next cartridge.
A very old trick was to open the end and pour molten wax in then close it again. That stuck the shot together so it acted rather like a cheap slug. Pressure spikes and barrel
bulges sometimes occur, especially in older guns. I'd suggest using not a lot of (soft) wax and putting it dead center.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > 37m m R e l o a d i n g . . .
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Springfield August 22nd, 2008, 03:33 PM

A forum search turned up nothing of value on this subject, because I'm an idiot a nd don't know ho w to search properly.
From a technical prospecitive is it possible to read the fucking ru les before I go firing off my little posts everywhere?
I f s o , d o e s a nyone have any information on how to read?
I don't own a brain, n or do I intend to own or build a brain.
I was just wondering if it was possible.

Yes Springfield, I have the answers you seek!
*Springfield listens attentively*
Y o u m u s t f i n d t h e m ythical U TSFE beast who lurks around the far off land called The Forum. You m ust hunt this beast for m a n y
days, learnin g its patterns and its cries. Then you m ust slay it! The answer you seek will be found in its belly, an answer of
great prize called "Knowledge". But first, go rea d our sacred tablet known as "The Rules".... Springfield, are you listening?
*Springfield wanders off only to be devoured by the many hideous and h orrific creatures that inhabit The Forum*
*Ale x i r e s s h r u g s a n d m o v e s o f f t o c h e w s o m e b e e f *
TreverSlyFox August 28th, 2008, 08:40 AM

IIR C U m m didn't NBK have a pretty ex t e n s i v e t h r e a d o n r e l o a d i n g 3 7 m m ? I s e e m to rem e m ber re ading it m aybe a year or two
back.
iHME August 28th, 2008, 10:16 AM

T h e s i t e 3 7 m m . c o m h a s r e l o a ding instructions and is usually considered the best 37mm centered site on the net. They also
link to other sites with valuable information.
BeerWolf S e p t e m b e r 2 8th, 2008, 09:28 PM

3 7 m m.com has been closed for quite a while.
Try Grog's 37mm a n d 4 0 m m W e b p a g e a t :
http://www.freewebs.com/grog /
T h e y ' r e m o s t l y 4 0 m m , but have quite a bit on the 37m m .
iHME S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2008, 09:56 AM

Just tested, 37m m.com seems to be working just fine.
And that Grog's site look interesting it's a dam n shame that he bills from 15 to 35 dollars per replica round . :( Otherwise I
probably would have purchase d a few.

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Ctrl_C June 20th, 2002, 05:09 PM

As always, any suggestions?

Madog555 June 20th, 2002, 05:39 PM

military greanades are activated by spinning in flight.

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Asger October 4th, 2002, 07:31 AM

Asger October 4th, 2002, 08:00 AM

In your grenade you have an electric flashbulb

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HMTD Factory Novem ber 30th, 2001, 09:16 AM

Hornady(which founded the idea of .17 necked

Picture of the new Hornady .17/22WMR with A-MAX match bullets.

AR-15 Man D e c e m ber 1st, 2001, 08:50 PM

HMTD Factory D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 05:45 AM

In m y first thought th e .17 rim fires

nbk2000 D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 05:59 AM

EventHorizon D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 08:13 AM

HMTD Factory D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 09:12 AM

HMTD Factory D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 10:16 AM

H&K 4.6m m PDW

actual bullet dia = 4.65m m

actual bullet dia = .172"

Since the PDW round is fired in a 7" barrel

In m y opinion the .17 sure can be m a d e i n t o

Inherent accuracy : the PDW round has a

Action length \weight : The PDW r o u n d b e i n g

R e m anufacture problem : Don't forget the PDW

Cost : .17HMR is expensive, unless Hornady is

You be the judge for if it's worth it to

AR-15 Man D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 10:51 AM

HMTD Factory D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 10:52 AM

D i d s o m e search on the net, this forum is

http://www.serveroptions.com /ubb/Forum 17/HT ML/0002 68.html

So Volquartsen and Aguila is m a k i n g . 1 7 / 2 2 L R .

O n t h e o t h e r h a n d H o r n a d y i s m a k i n g . 1 7 / 2 2 W MR (.17HMR ). Bo th Marlin and Ruger will offer

HMTD Factory D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 11:08 AM

W hat the Toka and 9 don't have are velocity

AR-15 Man Decem ber 2nd, 2001, 05:12 PM

The Steyr ACR wasn't quite caseless.