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General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry

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Special Project 1: Improvised Manufacture of Nitric Acid

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1. Synthesis of Potassium Nitrate KNO3 (5 replies)

2. Epsom Salt -> Sulfuric Acid? (6 replies)
3. Question about decomposing ammonium nitrate (1 replies)
4. Extraction of hexamine from Esbit? (2 replies)
5. Manufacture of sodium hydroxide (12 replies)
6. Ethyl Centralite Synthesis (1 replies)
7. Bismuth Trisulfide Scarcity (4 replies)
8. Is it possible to separate toluene from gasoline? (4 replies)
9. Salicylic acid synthesis by hydrolysis of asprin (19 replies)
10. Chlorine gas storage/methods of use (1 replies)
11. Hexamine Synthesis step by step w/ pics (29 replies)
12. Iodine production (39 replies)
13. Sodium hydroxyde purity (10 replies)
14. Industrial Solvents Handbook (0 replies)
15. Oxygen Balance (8 replies)
16. Sodium dithionite (1 replies)
17. creative solution needed: seperate silver from palladium (9 replies)
18. Excel molecular formula subscript help (5 replies)
19. Barium Nitrate (6 replies)
20. Cobalt Oxide Coated Anodes (10 replies)
21. Electrophoretic Coatings (2 replies)
22. KNO3 solution gone wrong (0 replies)
23. Partial nitrations? (5 replies)
24. Looking for some solubility info... (12 replies)
25. Atmospheric Pressure? (0 replies)
26. Why KNO3 sucks for nitrations (15 replies)
27. Isopropyl Nitrite synth gone WTF (24 replies)
28. chemistry books (10 replies)
29. Acids, Equations & other basic questions (5 replies)
30. Polyhydrocarbon (7 replies)
31. Call for Papers. (0 replies)
32. Ignition Temperatures (4 replies)
33. Nitrowool? (10 replies)
34. H2O2 help (2 replies)
35. H2O2 out of a new fuel-cell? (1 replies)
36. DDT, The Pesticide (21 replies)
37. Peroxidization of Naphthalene (3 replies)
38. Chlorine gas from KMnO4 and HCl? (4 replies)
39. More powerful Chlorates? (7 replies)
40. Home Production of Bases (3 replies)
41. Sodium Perborate (1 replies)
42. Chemical Information On Solutions (1 replies)
43. Fertilizer ---->phosphorus pentoxide (12 replies)
44. Sulfuric Acid (3 replies)
45. Unforseen Happening With nitration of cellulose (8 replies)
46. Quick way of making Copper (II) Oxide (23 replies)
47. Best ways to synthesize Copper Sulfate (24 replies)
48. Sufuric Acid turned black! (29 replies)
49. VP racing fuel (7 replies)
50. Civil War Chemistry (8 replies)
51. Phloroglucinol Synthesis (5 replies)
52. Alpha-Hydrogen Chlorination (2 replies)
53. Condensation of nitromethane (3 replies)
54. quick, how can I get a hold of some cesium :D (35 replies)
55. N-methylpyridine synthesis (17 replies)
56. Tetrahydrofuran via dehydration of 1,4-butanediol (4 replies)
57. Would this work to make Sulfuric Acid? (7 replies)
58. Condone Providone? (5 replies)
59. Synthetic Cocaine (9 replies)
60. sodium azide synthesis (4 replies)
61. Kurt Saxons Method.... (21 replies)
62. The Road to Furazans (3 replies)
63. A review of chromium compound synthesis (38 replies)
64. Protecting a Double-Bond (4 replies)
65. Gammabutyrolactone (GBL) (35 replies)
66. Synthesis of Amines (16 replies)
67. Making ammonium persulfate (11 replies)
68. tetranitromethane synth??? (2 replies)
69. Destruction of Aluminum via Mercury Amalgamation (0 replies)
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70. Explosives fromTerephthalic acid ? (9 replies)
71. Hydrazine preparation: anhydrous processes (36 replies)
72. Making AN. (1 replies)
73. Freebase Nicotine (14 replies)
74. On-line chemistry courses (2 replies)
75. Benzaldehyde (missing thread) (7 replies)
76. Lithium from Batteries (4 replies)
77. Thorium and Uranium (1 replies)
78. Increasing fuel power. (3 replies)
79. Red Iron Oxide -> Black (1 replies)
80. Sodiumtripolyphosphate (Na5P3O10) as a dehydrator (5 replies)
81. Household Film as Polymeric Binder (0 replies)
82. pH indicator (17 replies)
83. White Smoke Produced by AN (2 replies)
84. AP dimer-trimer conversion? (7 replies)
85. Condensing Oxygen out of Air (3 replies)
86. Phenole (16 replies)
87. Iodic acid & iodates (1 replies)
88. Purification, stabilizatin and storage of explosives (1 replies)
89. Ion exchange and acids (1 replies)
90. Detonator Capsule Materials & Reactivities (15 replies)
91. OT - Malonic Acid synthesis (4 replies)
92. Setting up a lab (108 replies)
93. urea as a substiute? (6 replies)
94. Ammonium Nitrate Solubility in Methanol (3 replies)
95. OTC pyridine production (14 replies)
96. The theory of OTC tetrahydrofuran (THF) synthesis (21 replies)
97. DNA chemistry (1 replies)
98. alternatives to chloroform (30 replies)
99. solubility of potassium perchlorate (25 replies)
100. Chlorinated aspirin (1 replies)
101. Mercury Thermometer (18 replies)
102. HCl + nitrate (20 replies)
103. sillicon tetrachloride (3 replies)
104. Chemistry Reference? (2 replies)
105. Medical Treatment (24 replies)
106. Purification of OTC Paraformaldehyde (14 replies)
107. Another method of KClO3 preparation (20 replies)
108. how to guess the reaction will be cool or hot? (13 replies)
109. Extraction of Nitroglycerin from DBSP (6 replies)
110. Ice Baths (14 replies)
111. NH3 gas (12 replies)
112. Toluene to Benzene? - Archive File (5 replies)
113. Ammonium Hydroxide/various nitrates/sulfates - Archive File (0 replies)
114. Nitrating mixtures - Archive File (1 replies)
115. Potassium picrate - Archive File (1 replies)
116. Easy O2 - Archive File (9 replies)
117. methenamine/hexamine manufacture? - Archive File (0 replies)
118. making K2CO3 - Archive File (5 replies)
119. mannitol = sorbitol? - Archive File (0 replies)
120. Hydogen Iodine - Archive File (0 replies)
121. Weird nitration process - Archive File (0 replies)
122. Di-(2-ethylhexy)sebacate - Archive File (1 replies)
123. peroxysulfuric acid - Archive File (2 replies)
124. formaldehyde toxicity - Archive File (0 replies)
125. Acetic Acid - Archive File (0 replies)
126. Polyvynyl alcohol (13 replies)
127. DDNP: Mega's procedure: Production of Picramic Acid? - Archive File (6 replies)
128. chlorate or perchlorate? - Archive File (0 replies)
129. chemicially destroying explosives (0 replies)
130. more concentrated H2SO4 from car batteries - Archive File (9 replies)
131. RDX/PETN precursors - Archive File (0 replies)
132. Chlorine by HCl and MnO2 - Archive File (0 replies)
133. Refluxing - Archive File (1 replies)
134. potassium to potassium nitrate - Archive File (1 replies)
135. NH4ClO3 - Archive File (8 replies)
136. eed help identifying acid. - Archive File (6 replies)
137. storage codes - Archive File (1 replies)
138. questions about vacuum distillations - Archive File (0 replies)
139. would this work to get hydrochloric acid - Archive File (5 replies)
140. filtering - Archive File (2 replies)
141. NH4NO3 + KCl -> NH4Cl + KNO3 ? - Archive File (0 replies)
142. Potassium-Kalium - Archive File (0 replies)
143. I haven't been able to make hexamine - Archive File (5 replies)
144. White fumes? - Archive File (0 replies)
145. generating chlorine gas - Archive File (2 replies)
146. Iron oxide problems - Archive File (8 replies)
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147. NC FROM PAINT LACQUER - Archive File (0 replies)
148. Extracting KNO3 from Sucrose/KNO3 mixture? - Archive File (0 replies)
149. Chloroacetone: warm or cold? - Archive File (0 replies)
150. ammonia and bleach - Archive File (0 replies)
151. White Phosphorus - Archive File (7 replies)
152. Fe2O3 (0 replies)
153. Freezing water out of weak H202 solutions - Archive File (1 replies)
154. A Crazy Idea... (Reactions with NX3) (6 replies)
155. NO acetic anhydride - Archive File (0 replies)
156. Methylamine. (6 replies)
157. Methods of extracting NM - Archive File (2 replies)
158. How to solve a stoichiometric ratio (0 replies)
159. Phosgene a substitute for PCl3 in CH3COCl production? (18 replies)
160. dextrin from starch - Archive File (4 replies)
161. Ethylchloride - Archive File (0 replies)
162. Prep. of Benzoyl Chloride - Archive File (0 replies)
163. Silane gas. - Archive File (0 replies)
164. Questions on lead azide precursors. - Archive File (0 replies)
165. Calcium Carbide - Archive File (0 replies)
166. Heating H2O2 - Archive File (1 replies)
167. Ammonium Perchlorate - Archive File (0 replies)
168. Extracting Potasium Nitrate - Archive File (3 replies)
169. hydrosilicons (or silicon hydrogen chemistry) (5 replies)
170. Water aspirator for vacuum? - Archive File (0 replies)
171. vacuum distilling? - Archive File (0 replies)
172. propylene glycol? - Archive File (1 replies)
173. No nitric acid - Archive File (2 replies)
174. making K2CO3 - Archive File (0 replies)
175. Hydogen Iodine - Archive File (0 replies)
176. Weird nitration process - Archive File (0 replies)
177. Simple questions about dichlorobenzenes.. (13 replies)
178. preperation of formaledhyde (46 replies)
179. electrolosis of organic salts (11 replies)
180. Manganese Heptoxide's halogen cousin :) (0 replies)
181. Would this work? (sodium chloroacetate) (5 replies)
182. Sodium Party (29 replies)
183. Making Anhydrous Ethanol... (13 replies)
184. Trying to make OTC trimethylsilyl chloride (9 replies)
185. Reduction of Styphnic acid (1 replies)
186. Reaction rate... (12 replies)
187. NaClO3 from Calciumhypochlorite - Archive File (0 replies)
188. oxidation of potassium chlorate to perchlorate - Archive File (7 replies)
189. New Oxidizer - Archive file (0 replies)
190. Help - NaCl03 from bleach - Archive file (0 replies)
191. nitration - Archive file (0 replies)
192. An+sulfuric for nitro esters - Archive file (3 replies)
193. Making X% Y(sol) from >X% Y(sol) ? (15 replies)
194. Nitromethane Synthesis - Archive Thread (31 replies)
195. Making AN - Archive Thread (0 replies)
196. Ammonium Chloride Synthesis (8 replies)
197. Benzophenone (destillation) (10 replies)
198. Products of Detonation Effecting Soil (9 replies)
199. Attempt to plasticize PETN (16 replies)
200. weird white precipitate (12 replies)
201. Boric acid (15 replies)
202. Ethyleneurea (3 replies)
203. Isotopic Explosives (11 replies)
204. Sodium Sulfide (20 replies)
205. Tables weights and measures (5 replies)
206. Hydrogen Peroxide decomposition data (2 replies)
207. Boron - only useful for ignitors? (11 replies)
208. phosphorus production (22 replies)
209. Nitration without the use of acid?!?! (5 replies)
210. Color of Fe2O3 (3 replies)
211. Nitration of Acetone (13 replies)
212. chemistry question, reactivity stuff.. maybe.. (5 replies)
213. Carbon Foam (11 replies)
214. Acid recycling/recovering (13 replies)
215. Making H2SO4 from HNO3 (27 replies)
216. Cyalume glowsticks \ liquid glow comppound (4 replies)
217. Benzofuroxan and derivatives (4 replies)
218. Hygroscopicity, problems, solutions and thoughts (4 replies)
219. chlorites from chlorates (4 replies)
220. phenol (8 replies)
221. A couple of misc. questions.,.. (3 replies)
222. How much lemon juice for the AP? - archive file (0 replies)
223. HC is just a catalyst right? - archive file (0 replies)
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224. Styrene-Butadiene Rubber (10 replies)
225. Ammonium Picramate for DDNP (13 replies)
226. Chlorate, Perchlorate production cells -archive file (0 replies)
227. Acetic Acid ------> Acetic Anhydride -archive file (24 replies)
228. Liquid Oxygen Synth (23 replies)
229. potassium nitrate from ammonium nitrate -Archive File (2 replies)
230. acid for nitration -Archive File (0 replies)
231. Calculating Oxygen Balance -Archive File (0 replies)
232. Hydrazine (41 replies)
233. accident (effects) (6 replies)
234. Types of Diesel Fuel (13 replies)
235. The Hunt for Decalin (22 replies)
236. My Curious Electrolysis (2 replies)
237. potassium permanganate synthesis (24 replies)
238. Recycling Calcium Sulfate, is it Possible? (9 replies)
239. 5-Aminotetrazole (5-ATZ) synth. (15 replies)
240. Nitrogen fullerenes (8 replies)
241. Copper liner (7 replies)
242. potassium nitrite synthesis (79 replies)
243. Homemade alcohol (103 replies)
244. pentaerithrytol reaction. (3 replies)
245. Looking for info on ammonium azide... (8 replies)
246. Catalysts for carbonyl + amine condensation reactions? (1 replies)
247. Security products cheap (2 replies)
248. Concentrating and purifying Sulfuric acid (16 replies)
249. De-polymerizing Teflon (15 replies)
250. Alcohol Fermentation (23 replies)

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251. What is this? (14 replies)

252. Nitrous Oxide (39 replies)
253. Small test (6 replies)
254. Laboratory Technique Videos (1 replies)
255. ChemOffice 2002 7,01 Ultra (31 replies)
256. Balancing AN+NM => ???? formula (12 replies)
257. oxidation from H2O2 (15 replies)
258. Maybe OT- Hash Oil (15 replies)
259. tin tetracloride (1 replies)
260. tin tetracloride (17 replies)
261. carbon monoxide (11 replies)
262. Preparation of benzoic acid (15 replies)
263. concentrating nitromethane? (20 replies)
264. Blu-Tack (75 replies)
265. sulfuric acid from sulfur flour (10 replies)
266. anhydre acetic (13 replies)
267. Perchlorate section on Megalomania's site (2 replies)
268. Other Pages... (12 replies)
269. impact sensitive flash target....any ideas? (7 replies)
270. Burning a Friend Alive...(safely) (49 replies)
271. .,-_:Stink Bombs:_-,. (29 replies)
272. Explosive Situations (13 replies)
273. Fun with biometric devices (4 replies)
274. Does Mercury mess up speed radars readings? (8 replies)
275. strange (useful) plastic? (3 replies)
276. sinking a paddleboat (21 replies)
277. Is there a contractor in the house? (15 replies)
278. Chemical Reactions (12 replies)
279. Tits on a fish (3 replies)
280. Improvised Sodium Azide (15 replies)
281. Acetone volatility (7 replies)
282. Poor Man's James Bond 5 (2 replies)
283. Nitric Acid (2 replies)
284. Car-Fire ??????? (7 replies)
286. Accidents and Legal Incidents (50 replies)
287. mega-low non explosive (13 replies)
288. The steps for explosive synthesis (15 replies)
289. Heterogenic Catalyst (AP) (2 replies)
290. Cutting Tools (54 replies)
291. breaking glass (22 replies)
292. A few things... (2 replies)
293. Responce to "Group purchases for the forum" (4 replies)
294. Economical Source of Zinc (8 replies)
295. Zink powder. (5 replies)
296. buying AN in bulk (9 replies)
297. United Nuclear? (33 replies)
298. Tranquilisers (4 replies)
299. denatured alcohol (29 replies)
300. Milori Blue (2 replies)
301. "The Tech of A Bomb Squad" (0 replies)
302. Techniques and Supplies for Filtration (5 replies)
303. Cop Cars Locator's (12 replies)
304. flask warmer (9 replies)
305. Spiked "jacks (?)" (4 replies)
306. new adventures in cyanide (85 replies)
307. polyisobutalene distributor (1 replies)
308. HTPB/PIB (2 replies)
309. Radar detectors (14 replies)
310. Safety precautions when making nitric acid.... (6 replies)
311. Need links for my links page (2 replies)
312. Anyone know how to make polyepichlorohydrin? (3 replies)
313. Exothermic Crystallization (6 replies)
314. Video Software (7 replies)
315. How's this lockpicking "guide" ? (1 replies)
316. Sodium Chlorate Production (222 replies)
317. Crystaline AN. (24 replies)
318. Bits And Pieces From OZ (9 replies)
319. Obtaining Al in Australia... (49 replies)
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320. Apology (2 replies)
321. Got Valves? (11 replies)
322. Converting Problems (1 replies)
323. Other species of K3wlz (12 replies)
324. Selling my tools/equipment (3 replies)
325. Nitric acid article from PDF (12 replies)
326. Telco Hand Phone set (6 replies)
327. Hand Flares and Parachute Rockets (9 replies)
328. NaN3 From Airbag (29 replies)
329. o my god.. (20 replies)
330. Kewl chemistry corner April 6, 2002 (7 replies)
331. KIFE, online source? (11 replies)
332. little question about vacuum pump (4 replies)
333. Jobs (74 replies)
334. Smoke movement (8 replies)
335. Clandestine lab (131 replies)
336. WWII bomb in my neighbourhood (34 replies)
337. Pentaerythritol anybody? (27 replies)
338. cupric nitrate (4 replies)
339. Merck Index 13th edition now available. (5 replies)
340. Anybody save The Journal of Propellants, Explosives, and Pyrotechnics website? (1 replies)
341. Improvised distillation apparatus (52 replies)
342. hexamine manufacturing (41 replies)
343. Ball Mill (78 replies)
344. Caffeine. (3 replies)
345. Chemistry Question (14 replies)
346. This site is way cheap vs. firequest! (11 replies)
347. Beautiful metal nitrates (40 replies)
348. grappling hook (24 replies)
349. napathalene (11 replies)
350. Ordering chems. (10 replies)
351. AN availability in the UK? (4 replies)
352. Binder ? (5 replies)
353. If anyone wants AgNO3, look on eBay. (18 replies)
354. Pics! (53 replies)
355. My PDF (3 replies)
356. Eagle Layout Editor 4.08r2 (4 replies)
357. Nuclear testing videos (2 replies)
358. tripwires (6 replies)
359. An excuse for buying acids (9 replies)
360. Chemicals from batteries (56 replies)
361. explosives-sound(?) (20 replies)
362. Improvised Acid Rain.. HELP! (6 replies)
363. E-books worth a read (3 replies)
364. one second plumer (15 replies)
365. REALLY good books on Xplosives? (34 replies)
366. Organic chemistry (7 replies)
367. Proxy (20 replies)
368. IMH (T&T)? (1 replies)
369. Poison (112 replies)
370. HCL (8 replies)
371. improvised GSM autodialer (18 replies)
372. Most useful 'tool'? (20 replies)
373. Why don't we.. (5 replies)
374. Download My PDF! (6 replies)
375. I got a site with some cool pics on it (34 replies)
376. Improvised fan (16 replies)
377. Good reading materials... (5 replies)
378. improvised Linear Shaped Charge (24 replies)
379. free respirators with filters (14 replies)
380. project avalanche (55 replies)
381. Suggestions for remote detonator? (11 replies)
382. Opening sprung latch locks - product found (3 replies)
383. browns gas(hydroxy)?!? (11 replies)
384. crazy shit w/ napthalene (13 replies)
385. Sulfur from a sulfate..? (10 replies)
386. YC Shooting Range (20 replies)
387. I have a problem (5 replies)
388. Making Iron Oxide (25 replies)
389. WTF happened to my H2SO4? (18 replies)
390. suggestion for money (1 replies)
391. Perfect Toy (0 replies)
392. AIM/ICQ ? (1 replies)
393. ssaerospace.com (3 replies)
394. UPGRADE SHUTDOWN!!! (0 replies)
395. The perfect x-mas present... (13 replies)
396. First explosive? (60 replies)
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397. Merry Christmas (33 replies)
398. Free Batteries for Christmas (17 replies)
399. Det Cord Construction (21 replies)
400. RTPB/Video Editing (38 replies)
401. new site (29 replies)
402. KNO3 and Fertilizer (23 replies)
403. I need some help!!! (15 replies)
404. heart beat sensor (2 replies)
405. Your favorite anime/cartoon? (40 replies)
406. Crocodile chemistry (9 replies)
407. WHOLESALE SOURCES (2 replies)
408. Potassium Chlorate (21 replies)
409. good video/pic source? (2 replies)
410. Eating up concrete (15 replies)
411. Passing the polygraph (22 replies)
412. phosphate (0 replies)
413. New Smilies (2 replies)
414. Volcano Demonstration Chemical (7 replies)
415. Getting Free Internet Service (1 replies)
416. lithium (20 replies)
417. Iodine (26 replies)
418. Rubber-Like Stuff, HELP! (6 replies)
419. Distilling HNO3 from H2SO4+KNO3 (5 replies)
420. Trioxane (2 replies)
421. Phosphorescent Compounds (8 replies)
422. acetaldehyde from bleach? (9 replies)
423. The limit between high and low explosives? (35 replies)
424. Fool Proof Guide to making HNO3 (21 replies)
425. High yield aromatic nitration with KNO3/H2SO4 in DCM (2 replies)
426. Tomorrows world uk (8 replies)
427. elite fighting force (10 replies)
428. Phosphor: white --> red ? (3 replies)
429. Whats everyone planning for this new year? (37 replies)
430. Best Mix For oxygen+acetylene devices (for a friend) (13 replies)
431. Thermite Mix in PMJB vol.1 (11 replies)
432. Instructions on How to use chinese celebration crakers (8 replies)
433. Rifle/Hand Grenades (0 replies)
434. What is in Liquid Fire? (9 replies)
435. Nitration catalysts (0 replies)
436. inflammable (12 replies)
437. lead nitrate (2 replies)
438. Liquid Carbonic (8 replies)
439. Red P (13 replies)
440. What did you do during the crash? (75 replies)
441. does any one have plans from plans & kits site? (8 replies)
442. 70 virgins? (3 replies)
443. What to do when a cop moves in? (16 replies)
444. 13-0-46 fertiliser is it good? (2 replies)
445. How to get Bin Laden (30 replies)
446. the rag head (2 replies)
447. To Jumala... (9 replies)
448. WebCam (8 replies)
449. Wing Chun Wooden Man (4 replies)
450. Buying potassium permaganate in uk (10 replies)
451. Common sense (2 replies)
452. armored car kit! (1 replies)
453. Nitration with polyphosphoric acid and KNO3? (2 replies)
454. snitched. (15 replies)
455. Distilling condenser types (13 replies)
456. mac-11 (25 replies)
457. favorite explosives. (1 replies)
458. Bank Safes (25 replies)
459. Advice (8 replies)
460. school sanctioned explosives demo....schweet! (28 replies)
461. Shockwave reducing foamed concrete. (1 replies)
462. Stun gun (14 replies)
463. emp (4 replies)
464. 50 stupid things to do with matches (31 replies)
465. Phosphorous Pentoxide (13 replies)
466. homebuilt missile (30 replies)
467. Sodiumazide (5 replies)
468. Bullet proof glass (25 replies)
469. Safety measures (12 replies)
470. Exploding Car's.. (3 replies)
471. Why my life become sucked too! (30 replies)
472. LSD (1 replies)
473. pyro-page (1 replies)
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474. What to do if the worst thing happends? (19 replies)
475. MY LIFE BECOME SUCKED (13 replies)
476. ethylene urea (4 replies)
477. Chlorate Cell power supplies (17 replies)
478. Induction coils- help needed badly! (14 replies)
479. Rust (1 replies)
480. NO2 (8 replies)
481. Azido Binder EGBAA (2 replies)
482. Cop Killer ??? (27 replies)
483. Hydrazine Hydrate 26 % (2 replies)
484. looking for dielectric fluid (7 replies)
485. HNO3 by desiccation (27 replies)
486. Safe Breaking and alarms etc. (12 replies)
487. door sensors (25 replies)
488. AN used as a desiccant? (7 replies)
489. Tony Montana got a scanner!!!! (19 replies)
490. Pernitric acid (5 replies)
491. Everyday chemicals for HE (38 replies)
492. polynitroalkyl amines (1 replies)
493. How are permanganates made? (3 replies)
494. ethanolamines (4 replies)
495. How to bug the wife (3 replies)
496. seperating Fuel Oil from Anfo (2 replies)
497. Dirty blood (4 replies)
498. VoD of NU? (3 replies)
499. Separating KNO3 and NH4NO3 (4 replies)
500. Telling the difference between Ammonium Nitrate and Potasium Nitrate. (6 replies)

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501. extracting iodene (11 replies)

502. Methylene Chloride (15 replies)
503. picric acid problem... (6 replies)
504. Nitrate fertilizer question (16 replies)
505. Sulphuric Acid Synthesis (57 replies)
506. Chlorobutanol info (3 replies)
507. H2O2 ways to concentrate 3% ? (131 replies)
508. Liar Exposed! (formerly P.E 4 And A Car) (85 replies)
509. paraformaldehyde (37 replies)
510. A quick question on nitronapthalenes: (9 replies)
511. Whats hexamine called in Norway? (7 replies)
512. Megalomania, please help! (3 replies)
513. Various Questions. (1 replies)
514. Urea manufacture (16 replies)
515. concentrations (7 replies)
516. Re: The list (10 replies)
517. Drying ammonium nitrate, dessicator (0 replies)
518. Ammonia chemistry questions. (1 replies)
519. superpowerful explosive (23 replies)
520. Density Table (15 replies)
521. H2O2 from OxyClean? (17 replies)
522. improvised blinding powder/grenades? (34 replies)
523. fun with N2 (16 replies)
524. CrO3 (25 replies)
525. Luminous solution... (25 replies)
526. Small Blasting Machine from Will (7 replies)
527. The most powerful explosive?? (15 replies)
528. hydrazine!! (30 replies)
529. Obtaining/producing oleum, how to make SO2 (19 replies)
530. Other peroxides. (52 replies)
531. Ammonium Chloride (3 replies)

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
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X-Wulf August 21st, 2001, 02:26 PM

Hi all
I wonder if someone can help me, i'm trying to synthesise relatively concentrated (68% +) sulphuric acid, and just need some
opinions on my method.
First, sulphur is burnt in air to produce sulphur dioxide. This is then bubbled through water to produce sulphurous acid. Oxygen
is then bubbled through the sulphurous acid to produce sulphuric acid.
Will this work? What sort of concentration will i attain?

Live Forever!

Lagen August 21st, 2001, 03:52 PM

If it worked the industry wouldn't be using expensive catalysts! In the past they used the lead chamber process which was far
more complicated. I know it's simple to just criticise, so: Better start from pyrite (iron sulfide), or iron sulfate. The latter can be
used to make oleum! I will post the procedure in Iron Sulfate...

Edit: No, I realised it is Iron(III) Sulfate and the Iron Sulfate topic mainly deals with Iron(II) Sulfate. So I will post it in the
oleum thread, after I type it...

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 21, 2001).]

Nitro August 21st, 2001, 04:24 PM

There are two old methodes for synthesis.
1 use an iron pan in an air tight glas beaker. you fill some water in the beaker and let the iron pan swimm on it.In the iron
pan is an mixture of sulfur88% and 12% saltpeter.Then light it and close the beaker.Do it few times.With this methode you
can make an 70% sulfuric acid.
And the other methode is older it works with cooper vitriol or alum.If you heat it and let the vapors in Water than you can
make Oleum.I think an steel pipe will do it as an retort for this methode.

-A- August 21st, 2001, 06:01 PM

That must be the strangest procedure I have seen...

Antonio August 21st, 2001, 08:17 PM

Haha, Theres no way in hell you could get H2SO4 like that. Where do you come up with this stuff

Disturbed August 22nd, 2001, 04:30 AM

Theres one way I know of making H2SO4 w/out high temp catalysts or anything too unreasonable. I haven't actually tried this,
but it makes sense, and it came from a source I can trust, my old chem teacher, who is a total explosives nut =]
In one jar, pour some water and add some sulfite salts [used in winemaking to kill bacteria]. this produces SO2 gas, which you
then bubble thru H2O2.. the two molecules combine [don't ask me how, like I said I didn't try it] and form H2SO4. I think that
it sounds reasonable. So basically you end up w/ sulfuric acid with a concentration roughly equal to the concentration of H2O2
you started with.
If anyone does try this, post your results please! I haven't ever bothered to buy sulfite salts, but I have seen them for sale
online before.

Nitro August 22nd, 2001, 05:08 AM

Both methodes works.In the first methode the saltpeter(NOX gases) is the catalyst.And they have used it industrial 1750 or
so.It was befor the lead chambers came.
And the other with the vitriol was first used
500 Bc.And they have made directly nitric acid with an mixture of vitriol alum and saltpeter.

X-Wulf August 22nd, 2001, 10:12 AM

-A- and Antonio, I just tried it and DID get sulphuric acid! it was extremely weak, but was still the desired product.

Nitro, thanks for the info, i'll try it a.s.a.p.

Disturbed, what sort of concentration of hydrogen peroxide is needed to get a decent concentration of H2SO4? Is the 3% stuff
sold at pharmacies ok?

Lagen, any help in the production of oleum would be greatly appreciated

Live Forever!

[This message has been edited by X-Wulf (edited August 22, 2001).]

X-Wulf August 22nd, 2001, 10:18 AM

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Nitro, if the KNO3 is a catalyst, then i'll assume that the SO2 is being converted to SO3 right? So then the longer/more often
you burn the composition in the beaker, the more concentrated the H2SO4 will become, right? So then eventually, you'll start
to produce oleum (H2S2O7)?

[This message has been edited by X-Wulf (edited August 22, 2001).]

Nitro August 22nd, 2001, 12:37 PM

Yes but what i read it works only for an 70% sulfuric acid.And yes if you often burn the mix. so you reach the 70%.
For oleum they have used the second methode.

X-Wulf August 22nd, 2001, 12:51 PM

Nitro, isn't copper vitriol merely hydrated copper sulphate i.e. CuSO4.5H2O?
if so, must this be burnt and then bubbled through already existing H2SO4 or just water to make oleum?

another thought, if copper sulphate works, why not other sulphates?

Live Forever!

[This message has been edited by X-Wulf (edited August 22, 2001).]

Disturbed August 22nd, 2001, 04:28 PM

I was under the impression that you could use any concentration of H2O2. However, if I was going to do this, I'd use 30%,
because it would take way too much 3% H2O2 to actually make a useful amount of conc. sulfuric acid.

Mr Cool August 22nd, 2001, 05:03 PM

I agree, sulphuric acid is a great low explosive.
Was this the best section? I doubt it...

Nitro August 22nd, 2001, 05:59 PM

Over 200 C it dehydrates and if you heat it to strong it turns black and gives SO3.For oleum you need to dehydrate it, and yes
cooper sulfate works too.(I over saw it ,in the book where i have the idea from are no chemical formulas)
P.S Where do you buy your vitrol or cooper sulfate?

Anthony August 22nd, 2001, 10:13 PM

Moving to Misc...

X-Wulf August 25th, 2001, 04:37 PM

Nitro, I get copper sulphate from the local hobby/science shop where they sell it as a refiller to little crystal kits. You can also
get it from some plant nurseries (don't know what it's used for though).
Is there an accurate way to test the concentration of sulphuric acid? (or even just to make sure it is sulphuric and not just

Disturbed August 27th, 2001, 08:11 PM

To test the concentration, I'd just find a density table and weigh the stuff. The other way to do it is to buy/build a hydrometer.
There was the thread on how to do that, and that will give you the density w/out weighing. You'd still have to find that density
table tho! Otherwise, one way they do it to test the concentration of battery acid, to see if it needs replacing, is to put a drop
on a sheet of metal and use a tool [don't remember what it's called, sorry] to measure the angle of refraction. That will give
you the concentration right there, though I doubt any person on this forum has one of those gizmos.

kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

Lagen August 27th, 2001, 09:21 PM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You'd still have to find that density table tho!</font>What? I have personally posted the
density tables for HNO3, HCl and H2SO4 here! To test for sulfuric acid, just try to precipitate the sulfate anion with calcium or

X-Wulf August 28th, 2001, 02:11 AM

Disturbed: thanks for the info, i'll try and dig up some stuff on refraction of liquids (though this is probably directly associated
with its density)
Lagen: i found your density table (here http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000887.html )
but it's for H2SO4, HCl and NH3, was the NH3 supposed to be HNO3?

Live Forever!

[This message has been edited by X-Wulf (edited August 28, 2001).]

Disturbed August 28th, 2001, 03:08 AM

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Whoops! Sorry bout that Lagen!
Thx for the useful info tho.. I've been thinking about waaay too much, waaay too late these past few nites http://

kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

Lagen August 28th, 2001, 02:31 PM

The HNO3 table is in the "Nitric Acid manufacture" thread.

X-Wulf September 22nd, 2001, 05:49 PM

These methods seem rather long, laborous, and somewhat inefficient http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif all i
get is really, really weak stuff

but ... another method i thought of:

Electrolyse NaCl solution to form Cl and H, bubble these gases through water and you should get ClOH. In bright light, or if
heated slightly, this forms concentrated HCl. Now simply ion-exchange with CuSO4 (for H2SO4) or KNO3 (for HNO3).
i tried this briefly, but not enough Cl dissolved in the water, and hence my acid was pretty weak.

Live Forever!

SofaKing September 22nd, 2001, 07:07 PM

Considering that you would be dealing with noxious gases (SO2-SO3) that you have thought about proper saftey precautions.

This shouldn't be considered a indoor project unless you have a fume hood. So for most of you that means outdoors only. A
gas mask wouldn't hurt either. And gloves for dealing with the acid.

http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/projects/acid/index.html This page off http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/ this site has

a tried and tested method for producing lab quantities of sulfuric acid. It's also a really good site.

Or If you live in the US go to the hardware store and just buy a half gallon of the stuff. That's what we have industry for.

With Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom

nbk2000 September 23rd, 2001, 02:52 AM

CuSO<sub>4</sub> + heat -> CuO + SO<sub>3</sub>

SO<sub>3</sub> + H<sub>2</sub>O -> H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>

"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

atropine September 24th, 2001, 02:35 PM

most efficient catylyst is vanadium pentoxide. This is the same thing they make spaaners and shit from. Thing is its so damn
strong that you cant really powder it.

all wize men have unwize fantasies &lt; ^ &gt;

X-Wulf September 25th, 2001, 01:32 AM

I'm geaussing that you meant "spanners", the ones you would use with nuts & bolts?
Could be a problem to use pratically if it can't be powdered. Is it possible to electro-plate steel gauss or something with it?

Live Forever!

rikkitikkitavi September 30th, 2001, 05:54 AM

Vanadnium is used as a alloy in special-steel, content about a few % w/w. But you dont need much to make a catalyst, mix it
with some K2SO4 (about 5 %) to increase efficency.

You can also try platinum (expensive) and ironoxide (less efficient about 50 %, but cheap)

The main problem with absorbing SO3 into water is that it will create a H2SO4 mist when it reacts with the water. Industrially it
is always absorbed in 98% H2SO4 and then dilluted. This mist is a drag to absorb...or condense since the H2SO4 particles are
extremely small.

Lead chamber process:

A mixture of NO2 and SO2 reacts with water to form NO and H2SO4 (lead-chamber process,used before the contact process
was invented). It used buildings lined with lead-sheets used as reaction chambers.
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H2O +SO2 +NO2 => H2SO4 + NO
NO + 1/2 O2 => NO2

By bubbling SO2, NO2 and air through several cascaded absorbers you will get H2SO4 in each one.

Main problem is that above 65 % H2SO4 the above reaction is not effective , so this sets the upper limit of concentration. In
the old days they solved this by distilling the acid up to 98 %, is more simply boiled it in open pans until it was the right
concentration, some acid (5-10 %) was lost this way.


[This message has been edited by rikkitikkitavi (edited September 30, 2001).]

X-Wulf September 30th, 2001, 02:16 PM

Thanks for the info, though i was aware of the lead chamber process. This, however, requires NO2.
Any ideas as to how to obtain/produce this?

Theoretically, chemical supply houses may sell certain chemicals (such as acids, ntrates and chlorates/perchlorates) to the
public, assuming that a legitimate (and reasonable) "excuse" is provided. The problem here is thinking up such an excuse
(especially for the ClO4's).

Live Forever!

CodeMason September 30th, 2001, 10:17 PM

KNO<sub>3</sub> is such a legitamite chemical that I've ordered it numerous times through pharmacists, no questions
asked. They probably all know it can be used in explosives manufacture (everyone knows what's in black powder), but they
like to trust people. I buy it from a fertilizer store nowadays.

CodeMason September 30th, 2001, 11:26 PM

So H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> + SO<sub>2</sub> -> H<sub>2</sub>O + SO<sub>3</sub> -> H<sub>2</

The hydrogen peroxide would probably need some sort of catalyst, manganese dioxide is too fast acting, maybe the sulfur
dioxide would be a catalyst in and of itself?? This seems like a good method, as the starting materials, sulfur and
concentrated peroxide are easy to get, plus I could easily construct the apparatus, using wire, a funnel, a porcelein dish and
an alcohol lamp for a sulfur combustion chamber, and from the top of the funnel would be an acid proof tube leading into the
beaker of conc. H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub>. Does this sound like it would work? If my scanner weren't broken I'd draw up
a diagram to illustrate it better.

a_bab October 17th, 2001, 06:02 PM

Ahaaaa....So that's why I wasn't able to obtain H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> from CuSO<sub>4</sub>*5 H<sub>2</
sub>O and my coke (carbonic acid) http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Damn, I got a nitro-headache again...


rikkitikkitavi October 30th, 2001, 09:52 AM

I read up and found out that sodium bisulfate (NaHSO4) decomposes into sulfuric acid and Na2SO4 in alcohol (C2H5OH)

The problem is that the sulfuric acid might react with alcohol (dehydration) and forming ether or ethane if I dont remember
wrong, especially at higher temperatures.

I like to mention that I haven' t tried it out, but before I waste time and money :

Anybody having any idea about how to separate the products. Distillation seems like a good way to produce ether...and diluted
sulfuric acid.

Na2SO4 is insoluble in alcohol and not very soluble in H2SO4, so much I know.


rikkitikkitavi November 16th, 2001, 05:58 PM

Ahh it is good to be back...

I have done some experimenting with NaHSO4.

When dissolved in alcohol, Na2SO4 preciptates since this is almost insoluble in pure alcohol and only about 0.2 % in 50/50

Left is a mixture of sulfuric acid and alcohol.

So far I havent figured out a way to
separate these two, but I guess distilling off the alcohol would work (forming ether and water, the later diluting the acid)
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Did find some very interesting patents about making sulfuric acid from waste gas to:
Us Patent # 3,947,560


Jumala November 16th, 2001, 09:11 PM

I found a very interesting site about making Oleum in the midage.
It is the Nordhuser method. They made oleum since 1650 by heating the different kinds of vitiol, found in the harz
mountains near nordhausen, in earthenware retorts. The white smoke (spirit of vitriol) was condensed and collected.
It was a high concentrated H2SO4 with additional SO3 in solution. This method was used for 200 years.

This method can be used to concentrate H2SO4 to oleum like said in this topic before.

The text is in german language but perhaps you can use a translator.

The original source is the book from rudolph glauber "Teutschlands Wolfart" from 1656.
Does anyone knows where to get a copy of those very old books?


rikkitikkitavi November 17th, 2001, 02:13 AM

I know that the preciptate is Na2SO4 since I have filtered it out , washed it with alcohol and dissolved in water, pH is about 5.
It is probably impossible to get rid of ALL acid with this.

NaHSO4 dont dissolve in alcohol, it decomposes! Netiher does Na2SO when the water concetration is low.


rikkitikkitavi November 18th, 2001, 07:43 AM

First, it is impossible to wash out all NaHSO4 from the Na2SO4. But with a pH at about 5 the concentration of NaHSO4 is less
than 1 % ... so with 99 % yield I call it good enough.
But that is not the problem, it is to separate the acid from the alcohol.

I make my NaHSO4 from Na2SO4 and H2SO4 !

I am just trying out different ways to make sulfruic acid , but I already have a few gallons at home... It is just for fun.
Cant buy it in Sweden, where I live, not even 37 % battery acid without permissions from the county board..

But you can make like this:

(NH4)SO4 is a common fertilizer.
(NH4)2SO4 => NH3 + NH4HSO4 (at about 100 C-250 C)

Na2SO4 + NH4HSO4 => NH3 + 2 NaHSO4 (at about 250-300 C)

NaHSO4 is commonly used as a agent to lower the pH in pools. That is also a source of it.


rikkitikkitavi November 28th, 2001, 02:15 PM


(NH4)2SO4 => NH4HSO4 + NH3

NH4HSO4 => N2 ,NH3,SO2 , H2O mostly.

according to litteraure. but when I tried to heat NH4HSO4 it didnt smell of SO2 at first but gave a very irritating non-smelling
odour similar to what you get when boiling diluted sulfuric acid, so some SO3 must be formed. After a while a strong smell of
SO2 emerged. But its very slow.
If you could converte NH4HSO4 into NaHSO4 this can be decomposed to Na2SO4 and SO3
(se previous post)

Trivalent metall sulfates gives M2O3+ SO3 when heated , divalent metall sulfates decomposes at such high temperatuers that
SO3 decomposes into SO2.


rikkitikkitavi November 28th, 2001, 11:53 PM

yepp,that irritating smell was probably SO3
reacting with moisture in my nose forming
sulfuric acid, but I can only say:

I didnt inhale...

I have had worse coffs after a good joint or a cigarette, it all a matter of the dose.


Cricket April 19th, 2002, 08:26 PM

I was watching TLC a while ago and it was discussing the first sewage systems in London (I think it was there) and it said that
there were bacteria that lived in the shit water at the bottom of a sewer and make some kind of gas that bacteria living on the
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top of the sewer needed and then one of its waste products was H2SO4. I thought maybe we could use this to make H2SO4
(dialute probably) and then concentrate it maybe? I haven't heard this mentioned before so I though I would give it a shot.
Has anyone heard of this before?

kingspaz April 19th, 2002, 08:29 PM

sounds like a good idea...could be like making alcohol except making H2SO4 :D ...although would the bacteria be able to
survive in conditions greater than 5% concentration?

Cricket April 19th, 2002, 09:01 PM

Yea, thats why I am not sure if I remember it correctly. I didn't know if they could survive. I would like alcohol more myself,
but everyone could use a little H2SO4 here and there :) .

croc August 29th, 2004, 01:29 AM

When I tried converting dry acid to H2SO4 on a cold day (may have been the problem) sod ium sulphate did nt crystallise out
but the NaHSO4 just sat without changing. Small bubbles began to form which I think were ethylene CH2CH2 produced by
the d ehydration o f alcohol. Maybe heatin g it wo uld speed up the rea ction (I did nt have a ho tplate handy at the time) this
can then be heated for the sulphuric acid to dehydrate the ethanol and release ethylene gas. The H2SO4 can then be distilled
out and then boiled to evaporate its water.

I make my NaHSO4 from Na2SO4 and H2SO4 !


How is NaHSO4 made? if both are heated togather would they refprm NaHSO4?

meselfs August 29th, 2004, 02:16 PM

The NO2 catalysis is IMO the best way.

Somewhere in the Nitric Acid forum, I remember reading that someone heated nitric acid with sulfur in it. It began reacting,
releasing NOx, which was collected in a container with water. Left behind was sulfuric acid. The NOx solution is, ofcourse, Nitric
acid, so it can be concentrated. Thus you don't lose any nitric acid, except for a tiny bit in lost vapors & stuff...

Just imagine, you could literally make gallons of quality sulfuric acid this way.

TheBear August 30th, 2004, 03:41 PM

The SO2 + H2O2 has been tested and it works. Just wanted to let you know. (SO2 was produced by simply burning sulfur and
bubbling the SO2 produced through ~20% H2O2). Resulting sulfuric acid is about 55% (final concentration depends on H2O2
conc.) which of course can be boiled down to desired concentration.

penguin6636 January 15th, 2008, 02:36 PM

I tried the H2O2 method one time. I used 3% and ran the SO2 from burning sulfur through 3 flasks each filled with 100mL
H2O2. Even then I could still smell a bit of SO2 at the end. I boiled the 300mL down to about 30mL when I was done. The pH
test indicated it was very acidic so I put in some NaCl heated it up and bubbled the HCl through about 20mL of water until the
gas production ceased. The HCl acid was strong enough to dissolve a handful of Al foil.

To burn my sulfur I put it in a stoppered 500mL flask and pumped air through it. I had some difficulty getting the sulfur to
ignite but once it lit it burned well so long as the O2 was flowing through it. I got lots of sulfur vapor while trying to get it to
burn, but if you lift the stopper off and hold a flame above the mouth of the flask it will get it all burning. I know this method
wasn't the best but I came up with bubcus for other ideas. What has anyone else done to burn their sulfur?

megalomania January 18th, 2008, 02:42 AM

...pumped air through it. I had some difficulty getting the sulfur to ignite but once it lit it burned well so long as the O2 was

Just to clarify, were you running air or pure oxygen through your sulfur burning flask?

Nitro January 18th, 2008, 10:30 AM

Before the lead chamber process came they made Sulfuric acid in big Glas flasks with an little bit water on the ground.They set
in an iron pan.On that pan they burnd Sulfur with an content of 12% up to 15% KNO3 or NaNO3.The Saltpeter produced NO2
and the NO2 oxdized the SO2 to SO3.The formed NO reacts with the remaining air in the chamber back to NO2.Later they used
an oven so they could burn the sulfur continuous.That method works for concentrations up to 70%.Because in lag of Water it
forms in the H2SO4 crystalls of SO2(OH)O-NO.If you can make it with an burning oven so you have an small industrial styl
sulfuric acid plant at home.

penguin6636 January 18th, 2008, 05:02 PM

Just to clarify, were you running air or pure oxygen through your sulfur burning flask?

Sorry for the confusion. I was testing for proof of concept so I was just using air. The problem with getting the sulfur to ignite
seemed to be that it needed a better source of ignition. I was using a hotplate instead of burner as it did less damage to my
rubber stoppers. When using a burner it was quite difficult to get the sulfur burning instead of just boiling, even with plenty of
air flowing through the flask. Introducing a naked flame near the mouth of the flask and then stoppering it again after the
vapors lit and got the rest burning seemed to work. This would be entirely too tedious to actually make H2SO4 though.
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tranquillity January 19th, 2008, 05:32 AM
A possible way to ignite the sulphur might be to add a very small amount of chlorate/sulphur mix as a pile in the centre of a
large amount of sulphur in the reaction vessel. The chlorate could then be ignited with a strong acid or heating which should
hopefully continue to burn the rest of the sulphur with a continual stream of air/oxygen.

Alexires January 20th, 2008, 12:41 AM

Penguin6636 - I had the same problem, but my flame kept going out. I figured that I needed a better air pump (I was just
using a cheap one from a pet store). Otherwise, 2 or 3 could be used in tandem to provide enough O2.

If you are having a few problems with getting it to ignite, you could experiment with adding differing amounts of KNO3 to your
sulphur before you add it to your burner. If you used only a small amount, it would assist in raising the temperature of the
sulphur to auto-ignition, as well as possibly keeping it burning.

To keep a flame going, one might use the ignition of an old oven. You know, where it ticks 2-3 times a second to light the gas
on the elements. It would work just like a butane lighter I'd hope.

If there is no flame, you will get finely powdered sulphur in whatever you are using to collect your product. While this might not
be a bad thing for some applications, it is annoying when you come back to find all your tubing blocked up with condensed

DetaDude May 18th, 2008, 02:03 PM

Try using ozone for the oxidizer on the SO3..........works slick.

Jome skanish May 18th, 2008, 05:46 PM

If you are producing ozone, you might just as well just bubble it through water with powdered sulfur in it.

S + H2O + O3 ---> H2SO4.

Hell, if you used a electrochemical cell with a sulfuric acid electrolyte you might as well skip a bubbler and let the ozone
produced react with sulfur and water directly at the anode, effectively getting a "sulfuric acid from sulfur in one pot" machine.

DetaDude May 18th, 2008, 10:40 PM

Care to elaborate on your theory? Introduce ozone into a stream of SO2 and get instant SO3 bubble through H2SO4 and
dilute as needed. Works for me. But you must have a good ozone source. If your O3 is weak (to diluted) results are poor.

Try it you'll like it.

Jome skanish May 20th, 2008, 07:49 AM

What source of ozone are you using? At what rate does it produce ozone? How much H2SO4 have you produced using this
method? How did you produce SO2?

AND WTF is "ur", "thru"? Sounds like language abuse to me, 14-year old h4x0R slang. It gives me a headache.

fluoroantimonic June 21st, 2008, 10:49 PM

I'll believe that ozone works when I see it... And any way you go about it, ozone is going to be a major headache to produce
in the large quantities needed.

The best way to get sulfuric acid *especially if you need over azeotrope acid or oleum* is to take some scrap iron, hit it with
drain cleaner of battery acid to make FeSO4 (you might be able to buy it at a garden store), then put it in a steel tube and
heat it up to 600*C with a dry air current the whole time. The exiting air/SO3 mix is bubbled into sulfuric acid to concentrate it
too 100% or higher (ie. oleum).

Oleum is extremely expensive to get from a chemical supplier and impossible to buy any other way. It also happens to be
very useful in syntheses that require a mixed acid nitration and many others, like various war gases, etc.

fluoroantimonic July 3rd, 2008, 02:42 AM

The other way to OTC SO3 is through metaphosphoric acid. HPO3 produced from OTC phosphoric acid or ammonium
phosphate fertilizer if powerful enough to dehydrate sulfuric acid to SO3. IIRC B2O3 produced from borax is also usable.

The process is simple, dehydrate phosphoric acid in a copper crucible up to 400*C or so with a propane torch, then mix with
the appropriate amount of azeotropic sulfuric acid and heat. Run the vapors into more concentrated H2SO4 to produce oleum.
The phosphoric acid can then be re dehydrated and used again.

From what I hear oleum is extremely useful for many nitrations, increasing yields substantially or in some cases is essential.
It is also a useful reagent for many organic syntheses.

AFAIK HPO3 can also dehydrate HNO3 to N2O5 which also some vary handy applications pertaining to explosives. Like directly
nitrating exotic things, etc.

akinrog July 5th, 2008, 04:46 PM

The other way to OTC SO3 is through metaphosphoric acid.
AFAIK HPO3 can also dehydrate HNO3 to N2O5 which also some vary handy applications pertaining to explosives.

Not to contest what you said, but I would be very glad if someone (or you) may provide references (and files) for these
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procedures. Regards.

fluoroantimonic July 7th, 2008, 03:59 PM

sciencemadness dot org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=727&page=1#pid6198

Read the whole thread. The stuff pertaining to the use of metaphosphoric acid is in the last two or three pages.

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View Full Version : H2O2 from OxyClean?

FadeToBlackened July 30th, 2001, 06:26 PM

I believe there was a post some time back about oxyclean, but if i remember right, it was deemed not very useful. I found this while surfing www.H2O2.com. (http://

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Sodium percarbonate (or sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate) is a non-hazardous granular product developed as an alternative to
perborate bleaches in household detergents. When dissolved into water, its releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate).

2Na2CO3 . 3H2O2 ---> 2Na2CO3 + 3H2O2

The pH of the resulting solution is typically alkaline, which activates the H2O2 for bleaching. The dry powder contains about 30% w/w H2O2 and finds specialty use as a wood
brightener and general cleaning aid. Check with a local supplier to industrial laundries for sourcing.

OxyClean contains this percarbonate (potassium percarbonate, actually, and maybe sodium percarbonate as well. I cant remember) as do some color-safe powdered bleaches.

Now this is just an idea, but it says it has about 30% w/w of H2O2, so would it be possible to maybe: make a saturated (or supersaturated maybe?) solution of the
percarbonate, and react it with some acid to form a less soluble (or maybe insoluble altogether?) compound than Na2CO3, and then aid precipitation by cooling it down a lot,
then filtering. Maybe even if its possible doing an extraction with solvents to further separate them (not sure about that.)

If it worked you could get a reasonable purity high conc. H2O2. If you were making AP or HTMD with it though, you'd need to add more acid, since any Na2CO3 would
neutralize it.

Maybe HCl could be used since it would form NaCl which is neither acid nor base, and anything that couldnt be separated would possibly be less affected by it.

[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited July 30, 2001).]

FadeToBlackened August 2nd, 2001, 04:27 PM

Does anyone think this remotely possible? or would the acid maybe have some interaction with the H2O2?

Fingerless August 26th, 2001, 01:55 AM

I remember seeing on a bottle of some type of natural, organic cleaner once as using H202 as the main active ingredient, something around 50% concentration....
I was wondering. this new Super Oxy-clean substance sold for cleaning at wal mart and such is touted is being organic, but it has no ingredients on it, does it contain H202 as
its main active ingredient as well? It seems like it very well could be, anyone know for sure? I am POSITIVE i saw a bottle if some type of "organic" cleaner with a very high
concentration of H202, however. Anyone? THanks.

FadeToBlackened August 26th, 2001, 11:44 AM

I made a post like this a while back. It is potassium percarbonate (potassium carbonate peroxyhydrate) which forms potassium carbonate and H2O2 on contact with water. I
dont know if it could be used for AP type reactions since the solution obtained is alkaline, which would neutralize the acid..my post was H2O2 from OxyClean? in misc

Fingerless August 26th, 2001, 03:10 PM

I'll look at your post, I didn't realize anyone posted something on it. What is the pH of normal H202? Just guessing, I think its slightly basic, whats the pH of oxy clean? You
could just use more acid so there isnt enough base to neutralize it all.

Fingerless August 26th, 2001, 11:37 PM

Hmmm, I couldn't find your post anywhere. Do you happen to have the link? Also, when mixed with water does that stuff from a true homogenous mixture or is it just
suspended and will settle out? I'm guessing its homogenous(I think this is the right term, its been a while) Does anyone know how much H202 it forms when mixed with
water? (Obviously it matters how much water you have, but any examples would be much appreciated.) Thanks guys.

Fingerless August 27th, 2001, 05:51 PM

Anybody? Maybe a type of buffer could be mixed with the Oxyclean? I think I'll try it anyways.

FadeToBlackened August 27th, 2001, 06:10 PM

Its somewhere in misc.. im too lazy to look for it. heres a link for ya though, www.h2o2.com (http://www.h2o2.com) thats where i learned about it.. i think it is 30%H2O2 by

Kdogg September 2nd, 2001, 04:01 PM

Im very tempted to try it, using more acid as Fingerless has mentioned.


s25 March 13th, 2004, 10:13 AM

In Ireland we have a stain remover called Vanish stain remover you can buy it in 1 litre bottles for about 1.20 the conc is 5-15 percent now we can only get six percent from a
chemist and it is about 1 euro for a 100mls.I have made AP successfully with this.

Real_Wrestler March 17th, 2004, 03:26 AM


-I use to think H2O2 was basic myself. I then did some research on the internet and found a great site. It is acidic, and it's PH depends on the concentration.

Here is the link:


vulture March 17th, 2004, 10:01 AM

"Sodium percarbonate" = 2Na2CO33H2O2

The acidity of H2O2 is neglegible compared to the alkalinity of Na2CO3.

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These tablets usually contain a great deal of crap, because starch is cheaper than the active ingredient....

EDIT: Because of the alkalinity of Na2CO3, the obtained H2O2 solutions is very unstable and should be used ASAP and kept absolutely clean, that is allow no dust or other crap
to enter.

The_Rsert November 14th, 2004, 04:22 PM

A few weeks ago I have heard that 2l 10% pure percarbonate solotion, 300ml 20% HCL and 300ml or less Aceton will form after 4 days about 70g pure DPPP (after

Then I have mixed 1l bleach ("Ace - Milde Bleiche", contains 5-15% oxygen based bleach) with 200ml Aceton and 250ml 24%HCL in a 5l canister.
After 3-4 Days i had 36.8g (after recrystallising) of a white explosive powder with a very low density. Maybe it's pure DPPP!

Boomer November 15th, 2004, 07:42 AM

Apart from the fact that this appears twice here, you already posted it in TWO other threads. :mad:
Even though you may be exited about the discovery, please stop wasting my lunch break, it is hard enough to read through all new explosive posts in 30 minutes!

Thank you

FUTI November 15th, 2004, 05:07 PM

Can anyone confirm the info about percarbonate being the main ingreedient of vanish or oxyclean? I always know that the so called "oxygen power" trash is just percarbonate
or perborate so it was 50/50 to make correct choice.

The_Rsert November 27th, 2004, 11:08 AM

To "Boomer": I'm sorry, I will never do this again....
To "FUTI": Oxygen powders like vanish does contain usually 20% sodium percarbonate, 75% sodium carbonate and 5% tensides.
And usually only very expensive bleach additive does contain pure percarbonate or perborates.

The_Rsert January 12th, 2005, 10:09 AM

Is it possible to extract the H2O2 with a comercial solvent?
Because you can extract for example the H2O2 from the urea peroxide complex with acetone. (The waterfree H2O2/acetone mix is very dangerous and explosive)

hereno January 12th, 2005, 12:11 PM

Is it possible to extract the H2O2 with a comercial solvent?

Check sciencemadness - http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1325&page=2

A number of extraction techniques are mentioned. Specifically using ether to extract 100% H2O2, which has been done by a member, and confirmed safe. An unconfirmed idea
is the use of silica gel to extract the water from the mix, leaving peroxide. Its mentioned that simple evaporating in rotovap takes peroxide concentrations to 70+%. Salting the
peroxide out with common salts is also mentioned.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Obtaining/producing
oleum, how to make SO2

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View Full Version : Obtaining/producing oleum, how to make SO2

Dhzugasvili May 19th, 2001, 08:19 AM

I was just wondering, since over here seemingly it is quite hard to get oleum/sulfuric acid with 10% dissolved So2, can this be easier to make?

c0deblue May 19th, 2001, 02:07 PM

Wrong forum - this belongs in Miscellaneous.

Oleum is formed by dissolving Sulfur Trioxide (SO3) in concentrated Sulfuric Acid. SO3 is obtained by reacting SO2 with oxygen over a catalyst (e.g. Vanadium). SO2 is
produced from burning sulfur.

None of these processes are for the faint of heart (or stomach). Doing this sort of chemistry in populated areas is sure to make you personna non grata.

Mr Cool May 19th, 2001, 02:34 PM

If you really want to make it, you can get the catalyst (vanadium pentoxide) from ceramic suppliers as a pigment or something. I think it's a pigment.
But if an explosive requires oleum, then it probably isn't worth making because there are loads of excellent explosives that don't require it. If you're making TNT then just
make TNP instead, it's more powerful, easy to make and easier to set off.

CodeMason May 19th, 2001, 09:15 PM

Couldn't you just obtain oleum by simply boiling less concentrated H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>, such as car battery acid or instant drain opener?

For that process, iron oxide (rust) can be used as the catalyst instead of vanadium oxide, and you need a platinum catalyst near the end I hear. It's a very tricky process, and
you won't see me trying it.

Jumala May 19th, 2001, 11:38 PM

Oleum is concentrated sulfuric acid with 10-30% dissolved SO3.

It is no problem to make SO2. It is simply made by burning sulfur.

The problem is to oxidize it to SO3. There are two methods. One is the lead chamber proceed where SO3 is made from SO2 and nitric acid. the other is the catalyst proceed
where is used platinum.

Oleum cannot be made by boilind H2SO4.

CodeMason May 20th, 2001, 07:03 AM

But I thought, that when you heat H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> to the boiling point, it decomposes into H<sub>2</sub>O and SO<sub>3</sub>, the SO<sub>3</
sub> staying in the solution but the H<sub>2</sub>O blows away as steam, hence making oleum... Or am I way off here?

PHILOU Zrealone May 21st, 2001, 06:22 AM

And what if the SO3 is a volatile solid with a low melting point and that as soon it has separated from H2SO4 it combines with the H2O!Learn or read some chemsitry before
reinventing it!Encyclopedias, internet, libraries gives good infos...you just need a little search!

All you need is an hermetic acid-heat-pressure resistant reactor, SO2, O2, a catalyst, heat and a cold trap to condense the solid SO3!!!SO2 and O2 are gases while SO3 is not!

"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

Lagen August 25th, 2001, 09:44 AM

The SO3 for oleum can be produced by thermal decomposition of anhydrous iron(III) sulfate, or ferric sulfate. This substance is comparatively much more expensive than the
common iron(II) sulfate, and is difficult to obtain in the anhydrous form. It forms various hydrates (mono-, penta-, nona-, dodeca-), the monohydrate is a grayish white
powder, the higher hydrates are yellow. The anhydrous form is a grayish crystalline substance. The ferric sulfate can also be obtained from the commercially available 40%
solution by evaporation (sold under the name "Prefloc" in my country), this is a somewhat cheaper source. If you aren't absolutely sure the ferric sulfate is anhydrous, it must
be calcined first to remove all water. This can be done in the very same vessel in which the decomposition will be carried out afterwards, a stainless steel retort is suitable for
this purpose. The volume of the retort must be sufficient to accommodate the material at a density of 0.2 g/cm3. Heat the sulfate at 450-460C for a sufficient period of time,
until no water vapour is given off. This is best done in a gas furnace with thermostatic temperature control, or a similar enclosure where the temperature can be equalized. The
temperature must not exceed 470C, at which point the sulfate might start decomposing. After the calcination of the sulfate is finished connect the outlet of the retort to a
suitable receiving bottle containing 1.53l (2.8kg) of 98% H2SO4 for every 2kg of ferric sulfate used. The gas inlet should be through a piece of thin glass tubing extending
below the surface of the acid, the outlet can be vented out or alternatively you can attach a second smaller receiving bottle in series to improve efficiency. Increase the
temperature in the retort to 480-500C and maintain this temperature until the evolution of SO3 stops. The temperature of the acid should be maintained at 45-50C by cooling
with flowing water. The theoretical concentration of the oleum after connecting the solutions is 30% (d=1.925). Do not cool below 45C, otherwise the SO3 will condense in the
tubing and on the walls of the apparatus. Also, do not use water as the receiving medium, the reaction of SO3 with water is very violent and difficult to cool down.

10fingers August 25th, 2001, 03:46 PM

I came across a process awhile back for making TNT which does not use oleum. It was a three step process using mixed sulphuric/nitric acid. Supposedley you could use nitric
as low as 70% concentration.
According to the text oleum only increases the efficiency of the process and is not absolutely necessary.

Mr Cool August 25th, 2001, 05:50 PM

I also read that, I seem to remember that in total it used a LOT of acid. Shouldn't be too hard to recycle though.

10fingers August 25th, 2001, 07:10 PM

Yes it did. It says you mix up three batches of acid for the mono, di, and trinitration. You take the spent acids and recycle the mono, use the di for the next mono and use the
tri for the next di.
To recycle you mix with some more sulphuric and distill off the nitric.
My friend tried this process once out of curiosity. He got a product that had all the properties of TNT , melted at around 80 degrees C, formed pale yellow needle like crystals
and burnt with a black sooty smoke. For some reason though this stuff would not detonate. He even tried putting it in a pipe with a compound detonator consisting of HMTD
and MHN but there was maybe only a slight detonation of the TNT. I know that TNT is hard to set off but I wouldn't think it is that hard.

Tony Montana August 25th, 2001, 07:17 PM

There is a much, much easier way! Why dont you download Paladin Press's Black Book Revised/ State of the art improvised munitions, from:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/montana/and read the chapter about making Oleum! HINT: You only need, Sulfur, Iron Oxide and concentrated H2SO4.
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[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited August 25, 2001).]

Lagen August 26th, 2001, 08:24 AM

After doing some very quick and dirty calculations (the book gives no weights or ratios), I can see some fundamental flaws in that method. Firstly, I doubt that a piece of rust
from "rusting iron" would work as catalyst. Catalysts like copper and iron oxides must have a very high specific surface to work - at least tens of square meters per gram, so
must be specially prepared for this purpose. Then they suggest to drive all the gas through that little pyrex tube. Let's do some calculations first. The receiving "flask" looks like
a ketchup bottle, and it is half full of H2SO4. Say they have 250ml H2SO4 there, or 457g. To convert it to 30% oleum, one would need 196g SO3 (assuming 100%
efficiency...), that's almost 55 liters of SO3. 79g of sulfur would be needed. Say the sulfur would burn in 10 minutes (shorter burning times would be even more problematic)
and the inner diamater of the tube is 7mm. That results in a speed of 238 cm/s. How could the gas get 100% reacted with such a small amount of catalyst at such a speed?
How would you make the gases bubble at this speed through those several centimeters of (rather dense) conc. sulfuric acid? Can you imagine that the gas could get absorbed?
Say that the driving force would be the tremendous heating of the little metal dish, undoubtedly a great amount of gases from the torch would enter the reaction, further
increasing the total volume and speed of flow, the plastic tubing probably wouldn't take it and non heat-resistant ketchup bottles could crack. The gases from the torch would
contain LOTS of water from the combustion of the hydrocarbon fuel, so any SO3 formed would be immediately converted to H2SO4 vapour, and no oleum could be made. The
H2SO4 would condense on the catalyst, clogging it, unless there was a gaping hole in it (then the catalyst wouldn't work). There is no heat dissipation means between the
pyrex tube and the receiving flask, which would be necessary to cool down the gases from a few hundred down to 45C - safe for oleum). They do not tell us to cool the
receiving bottle. A lot of the oleum would decompose as soon as it was made, creating a cbp solution of 98.33% H2SO4 at 338C. The candle in the picture would hardly heat
the tube to 200C, while for the catalyst the temp. would have to be in the range 400-800C. A much larger torch would be necessary.
*sigh...* Okay, enough bitching, but I seriously doubt the authors have actually tried it. Has anybody else tried this method?

DogOfWar May 23rd, 2007, 12:53 AM

I have been trying to produce oleum by pyrolysis of sodium bisulfate.

Step one, dehydration;

2NaHSO4 --> Na2S2O7 + H2O @ 315*C

Step two, cracking;

Na2S2O7 --> Na2SO4 + SO3 @ 460*C

And bubbling the SO3 through concentrated (98%) H2SO4.

I believe this should work. Anyone have suggestions or comments?

I have had some problems with the temperature required for cracking, stoppers and tubing etc. are melting! I have switched to ground glass hardware now, but have not yet
cranked up the rig to see if it works.:D

Enkidu May 23rd, 2007, 03:55 PM

What is your reference for this procedure's use in the production of sulfur trioxide? Has it been successfully performed?

I suppose you've seen garage chemist's member publication about sulfur trioxide and it's accompanying thread over at SM? He used sodium persulfate instead of sodium
bisulfate. I can see why you'd want to use sodium bisulfate; it's much cheaper. However, as you mentioned, the decomposition of the bisulfate produces both water and SO3.
GC had trouble only getting rid of the water before further decomposition. Of course, SO3 + H2O <---> H2SO4. You'd only be getting 100% sulfuric acid (fuming sulfuric acid).

A catalyst is another aspect you need to take into account. Na2S2O7 does not decompose and give off SO3 without a catalyst (according to GC). I'd suggest MgSO4 rather than
H2SO4, as I imagine that a catalytic amount of H2SO4 would be evaporated at the high temperature you have listed.

I'd advise some tests before bubbling your SO3 directly into conc. sulfuric acid. Because of the likely small yields of your experiment, it's even less likely that you could tell if
you're bubbling SO3 or H2SO4 into your sulfuric acid. Why not use the high MP of SO3 (16*C) to your advantage? Cool your receiving flask and see if the proposed SO3

Whether you use sodium bisulfate or sodium persulfate, your yields will probably be pitiful. I don't know what your use for the oleum is, but you're going to need a heck of a
lot of starting material to get any quantity of oleum with a significant dissolved SO3 content. That means many small batches. I looked into producing sulfur trioxide for thionyl
chloride (and in turn thionyl chloride for acetic anhydride) and I decided it wasn't worth it.

I hope I haven't discouraged you.

As a final word of warning (from GC),

Sulfur trioxide is extremely corrosive. It instantly carbonizes any organic matter it touches, including skin. A drop placed on wood instantly makes a black spot, under strong
fizzing and fuming. The same happens when a drop falls on the skin.

Sulfur trioxide also reacts with water with explosive violence. When a drop of water falls into a flask containing SO3, the flask usually shatters because of the violent reaction
and localized heating. [I.e., wait until your glassware stops fuming before washing it out and neutralizing with a base. Also, when adding your SO3 to sulfuric acid, use good
stirring and 0*C acid.]

SO3 fumes in air very strongly. The synthesis must be carried out outside or under a fume hood.

DogOfWar May 28th, 2007, 06:37 AM

Cranked up my still this afternoon, no doubt about it... this stuff IS SO3!
Ate the cover right off of the end of the tubing!

Tried your suggestion as well and cooled flask... bingo solid SO3.

I am trying to find a way to fully use the gas stream, possibly by bubbling through two beakers in series. Can I cool the SO3 down and keep it cool to store it? Can it be added
directly as a solid by some method to the H2SO4?

I wouldn't try to manufacture oleum this way, but for personal use it looks like it's going to be cheaper and easier than buying it!

Reference is from old (1957) college textbook on general chemistry.

Also I found a ref in Wikipedia to same process.

DF90 June 12th, 2007, 01:33 PM

Sodium bisulphate can be used to produce Sulphur trioxide.

The bisulphate is heated to about 320C at which point it is dehydrated to Sodium pyrosulphate, Na2S2O7. This is then heated at about 460C to produce Sulphur trioxide and
Sodium sulphate by thermal decomposition. The Sulphur trioxide can be condensed and collected (its boiling point is 45C).

I assume this can be added carefully to conc. sulphuric acid, first reacting with any water present to produce more sulphuric acid until 100% concentration is achieved. At this
point any sulphur trioxide added will be used to produce oleum.

As a word of warning the addition of sulphur trioxide to conc sulphuric acid should be cooled as the reaction between the SO3 and the water present is very exothermic. It is
also more efficient if you start with the highest conc. of acid you can to prevent wasting precious SO3 to make H2SO4

Azido December 11th, 2007, 07:44 PM

Could SO3 be used to double, triple, even quadruple (etc) your supplies of H2SO4?
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A small amount of H2SO4 is turned into Oleum with the addition of SO3.

The resulting Oleum is then very carefully diluted into a stoichiometric amount of distilled water, resulting in more concentrated H2SO4.

goto 1

Handy if you have a lot of CuSO4 and not a lot of H2SO4..

megalomania December 16th, 2007, 11:58 AM

Indeed, Azido, that is how sulfuric acid is made industrially. Sulfur trioxide gas is mixed with sulfuric acid of moderate concentration until it forms oleum with a maximum
percentage of dissolved sulfur trioxide. The oleum is then added to water to make more sulfuric acid, some of which goes back into the system to be reacted with sulfur

penguin6636 January 15th, 2008, 02:02 AM

I wouldn't try to manufacture oleum this way, but for personal use it looks like it's going to be cheaper and easier than buying it!

I also tried making SO3 this way but had a zero to terrible yield. I was a bit too liberal with my glass grease and I think most of the SO3 produced went to work on it instead of
making a happy little deposit in the collection flask. I ended up with black shit everywhere and some very acidic liquid. My bisulfate probably wasn't fully decomposed yet.
Could you describe your setup and process in a little bit more detail, maybe some pictures too? :)

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Density Table

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View Full Version : Density Table

stanfield August 3rd, 2001, 11:35 AM

I n e e d s o m e density table (with the co ncentration coresponding...)

density table of :
- chlorohydric acid
- sulfuric acid
- am m onia water

a big thanx...

Lagen August 3rd, 2001, 01:32 PM

Here it is:<CENTER>
<CAPTION ALIGN=TOP></C APTIO N><TR><td width="55"> </td><td width="120">H2SO 4</td><td width="55"> </td><td
width="120">HCl</td><td width="55"> </td><td width="120">NH3
</td ></tr><TR><td>w[%]</td><td>d[g/ml]</td><td>w[%]</td ><td>d[g/m l]</td><td>w[%]</td><td>d[g/ml]</td></
tr><TR><td>0.5</td><td>1.0016</td><td>0.5</td><td>1.0007</td><td>0.5</td><td> 0.9960
</td ></tr><TR><td>1</td><td>1.0049</td><td>1</td><td>1.0031</td><td>1</td><td>0.9938 </td></tr><TR><td>2</
td><td>1.0116</td><td>2</td><td>1.0081</td><td>2</td><td>0.9895</td></tr><T R><td>3</td><td>1.0183</
</td ></tr><TR><td>4</td><td>1.0250</td><td>4</td><td>1.0179</td><td>4</td><td>0.9811
</td ></tr><TR><td>5</td><td>1.0318</td><td>5</td><td>1.0228</td><td>5</td><td>0.9770 </td></tr><TR><td>6</
</td ></tr><TR><td>7</td><td>1.0453</td><td>7</td><td>1.0327</td><td>7</td><td>0.9690 </td></tr><TR><td>8</
</td ></tr><TR><td>9</td><td>1.0591</td><td>9</td><td>1.0426</td><td>9</td><td>0.9613
</td ></tr><TR><td>10</td><td>1.0661</td><td>10</td><td>1.0476</td><td>10</td><td>0.9 575</td></
</td ><td>1.0576</td><td>12</td><td>0.9502</td></tr><TR><td>14</td><td>1.0947</td><td>14</td><td>1.0676</
</td ></tr><TR><td>16</td><td>1.1094</td><td>16</td><td>1.0777</td><td>16</td><td>0.9 361</td></
tr><TR><td>18</td><td>1.1245</td><td>18</td><td>1.0878</td><td >18</td><td>0.9294
</td ></tr><TR><td>20</td><td>1.1398</td><td>20</td><td>1.0980</td><td>20</td><td>0.9 2 2 8
</td ></tr><TR><td>22</td><td>1.1554</td><td>22</td><td>1.1083</td><td>22</td><td>0.9 164</td></
tr><TR><td>24</td><td>1.1714</td><td>24</td><td>1.1185</td><td >24</td><td>0.9102
</td ></tr><TR><td>26</td><td>1.1872</td><td>26</td><td>1.1288</td><td>26</td><td>0.9 0 4 0
</td ></tr><TR><td>28</td><td>1.2031</td><td>28</td><td>1.1391</td><td>28</td><td>0.8 980</td></
tr><TR><td>30</td><td>1.2191</td><td>30</td><td>1.1492</td><td >30</td><td>0.8920
</td ></tr><TR><td>32</td><td>1.2353</td><td>32</td><td>1.1594
</td ><td></td><td></td></tr><TR><td>34</td><td>1.2518</td><td>34</td><td>1.1693</td><td></td><td></td></
tr><TR><td>36</td><td>1.2685</td><td>36</td><td>1.1791</td><td ></td><td></td ></tr><TR><td>38</
</td ><td></td><td></td></tr><TR><td>40</td><td>1.3028</td><td>40</td><td>1.1977</td><td></td><td></td></
tr><TR><td>42</td><td>1.3205</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><T R><td>4 4</td><td>1.3386
</td ><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><T R><td>46</td><td>1.3570</td><td></td><td></td><td></
td><td></td></tr><TR><td>48</td><td>1.3759</td><td></td ><td></td><td></td><td></ td></tr><TR ><td>50</
</td ><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><T R><td>52</td><td>1.4149</td><td></td><td></td><td></
td><td></td></tr><TR><td>54</td><td>1.4351</td><td></td ><td></td><td></td><td></ td></tr><TR ><td>56</
</td ><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><T R><td>58</td><td>1.4770</td><td></td><td></td><td></
td><td></td></tr><TR><td>60</td><td>1.4987</td><td></td ><td></td><td></td><td></ td></tr><TR ><td>70</
</td ><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><T R><td>80</td><td>1.7272</td><td></td><td></td><td></
td><td></td></tr><TR><td>90</td><td>1.8144</td><td></td ><td></td><td></td><td></ td></tr><TR ><td>92</
</td ><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><T R><td>94</td><td>1.8312</td><td></td><td></td><td></
td><td></td></tr><TR><td>96</td><td>1.8355</td><td></td ><td></td><td></td><td></ td></tr><TR ><td>98</
</td ><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><T R><td>100</td><td>1.8305</td><td></td><td></td><td></

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 03, 2001).]

stanfield August 4th, 2001, 04:19 AM

The last valu e in the sulfuric acid table is wrong...

stanfield August 4th, 2001, 06:26 AM

is it 1.8735 ?


stanfield August 4th, 2001, 06:28 AM

no, sorry !
1.8375 ?

Lagen August 4th, 2001, 07:38 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Nope. It is not wrong. Sulfuric acid has a m a x i m u m of d ensity at 97% and beyond that the density DECREASES. It is a
m isconceptio n to substitute linear approxim ations here, and sulfuric acid is a perfect exam ple! Such approxim ations usually
work for very low concentrations only (in the range 1-5%, but not 0-1%). BTW, if you boil down your sulfuric acid, this effect will
cause no pro blem s with concentration m e a s u r e m ents. Y ou can o nly boil down H2SO4 to about 96%. You will notice that the rest
will boil off at a lower tem pera ture, tha n the literature b.p. of pure H2SO4. Oh, and I forgot: all the data is for 20C.

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 04, 2001).]

Lagen August 4th, 2001, 09:01 AM

Here's another example which m ight explain it: Mixing water and alcohols. The comm on m isconception is that the d ensity
value results just from mixing constant volumes of m aterials with different densities: d=(d1V1+d2V2)/(V1+V2). Say you've got
100g of 100% EtOH:

100g 100% EtO H @ 0 .7893 g/ml = 126.69 m l

You water it down to 96%: +4.17g H2O
104.17g 96% EtOH @ 0.8013 g/m l = 1 3 0 . 0 0 m l

But: By simply adding up the volumes of the starting materials 126.69+4.17=130.86m l. T h a t m e a n s t h a t t h e m i x t u re of the
two has a lower volum e - it shrinked! To verify that this is not a peculiarity occurin g n e a r 1 0 0 % , g o o n t o 9 0 % :
+6.94g H2O = 111.11g 90% EtO H @ 0.8180 g/m l = 135.833 m l while it "should" be 137.8 m l.
S a m e is true of m e t h a n o l :
1 0 0 g 1 0 0 % M e O H @ 0.7917 g/m l = 126.31 m l
+ 1 1 . 1 1 g H 2 O = 1 1 1 . 1 1 g 9 0 % M e O H @ 0 . 8 2 0 4 g / m l = 135.44 m l ("should" be 137.41 ml) etc.

The reverse of this, when you take away the water, and the volum e inflates, is called "dilatation". This is what happens in the
sulfuric acid above 97% concentration. It is not obvious why this happens only above 97% while in alcohols this can be taken
further. Therefore you should better trust the literature data and if you distrust them , prove them wrong first!

vulture D e c e m ber 8th, 2001, 03:18 AM

d u m b question: How can you know if you've got 94% or 100% cause the density is alm o s t t h e s a m e ?

"I ju s t n e e d s o m e tolene...tolyl? How you call that stuff mam , n e e d t o h e l p m y m other painting..."

Lagen D e c e m ber 8th, 2001, 12:00 PM

W eight the sam ple, precipitate the sulfate with barium, weight the precipitate, calculate the conc.

W ithout destroying th e s a m ple, you co uld test for its refractive index.

There is an indicative estimation I use to test the boiled acid that has been stored for a long tim e - d r o p s o m e o n t i s s u e p a p e r
etc. - with the conc. at 90%, the paper slowly gets brown or purple, but at 97% it turns into a black sponge of carbon instantly
with characteristic sou nd. With
s o m e practice you can estimate the conc. to the percent (you'll have to stick to a particular brand of paper, tho)

rikkitikkitavi D e c e m ber 9th, 2001, 12:19 PM

heat the acid gently: if it is 100% it will fum e a L O T b e c a u s e i t g ives of SO3 until the concentration r e a c h e s 9 8 . 3 % H 2 S O 4
(azeotrope) , 94 % would give off water vapour until it reaches 9 8.3 % .

Free zing point of 100 % acid is around +10 C,

freezing point of 94 % acid is around -20 C.

/rick ard

vulture D e c e m ber 10th, 2001, 04:01 AM

I heated it outside, but i couldn't tell if the fum es that were coming were just water or SO3 , cause it was very hum id outside.
How do i distinguish SO3 fum e s f r o m s t e a m ?
I kept it at 110C for 10 min and stirred, but it didn't sta rt to bub ble so i guess there wasn't much water in it anym ore.

I know it's very concentrated cause i was able to make fuming nitric acid with it(alm o s t p o i s o n e d m yself with NO2 opening the
bottle inside, dam n that gives a headache). I'll try the freezing point method. Thanks alot.

"I ju s t n e e d s o m e tolene...tolyl? How you call that stuff mam , n e e d t o h e l p m y m other painting..."

Lagen D e c e m ber 10th, 2001, 05:54 AM

Heating the acid to 110C is n ot sufficient to verify the absence of water. The point at which the water boils off gradually
increases to the 300C levels as the conc. approaches the azeotrope. A quicker way of doing this would be taking a sm all
s a m ple and heating it in a test tube over the stove directly, but very gently! Point the tube in a safe direction and wear som e
protection, it tends to bum p very violently! If there is a lot of water in it, it will boil vigorously at first, the highly concentrated
acid is quite calm and gives off the typical fum es. You can ditinguish them from water vap our, they m ove slowly in the air, and
dont disappear in a few seconds, like water vapour does. They a re very irritant to the lungs, but the mixed fum es at lower
concentrations are as well.
And, you can m ake about 96% HNO3 with just 93% H2SO4, H2SO 4 has a very high affinity for water until about 65% conc.

DBSP D e c e m ber 11th, 2001, 04:23 AM

Lagen I just wonder were you got those density tables. And does anyone know off any website that has lots of specific info
chemicals an d specificly density tables.

m onte
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Lagen D e c e m ber 11th, 2001, 06:35 PM
The web is not a good source of such info. Libraries are much better. But I do happen to have a small PDF with these and a
couple other tables. Unfortunately m y site got deleted so I can't provide a link. Maybe I'll set up another account and upload
just this file to see if it gets deleted again. And I'll mail it to you .

And where I got this one? Long, long ago, somehow I m anaged to sign up for the online version of the CRC book. Then saved
everything to disk. It was just 50MB, but there were 212 6 files if I remem ber correctly... Needless to say m y hand got a bit
sore ...

DBSP D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 04:18 PM

L a g e n h a s m ailed m e the file containing tables for about 65 different chem icals, it's a small pdf. W i t h L a g e n s p e r m i s s i o n I
have upploaded the file to:
http://www.geocities.com/bboom m s e / b o o m . h t m l
you can either view it in your browser o r download it to your com puter...

m ery x-m a s p e o p l e ! !

m onte

Lagen D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 11:00 PM

Finally I succeeded uploading the tables to my original UR L, http://Lagen.KGB.cz and added a few more files. A mirror will be
m aintained at http://Lagen.wz.cz and a .TO redirect is available at http://go.to/Lagen (with popup ad http://
theforum.virtualave.n et/ubb/smilies/frown.gif). From tim e to tim e I m ay upload things http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/
s m i l i e s / s m ile.gif.

Stay in one piece, Everyone!

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > superpowerful

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the_wingman August 3rd, 2001, 01:12 PM

I don't think anyone of us is able to make this stuff. But it's interesting anyway.
Imagine, 6 times as powerful as TNT..

the_wingman August 3rd, 2001, 01:13 PM

oooops, I forgot to post the link, sorry..


FadeToBlackened August 3rd, 2001, 01:19 PM

Does anyone besides me think maybe he meant silicone, not silicon? Silicone has the structure:
well you get the idea.
This is made from some form of silane gas (SiH4) i think they change it to SiCl4. They are efficient fuels, but i think boranes are better. Diborane (B2H6) is an example but if
you could get a solid by polymerizing it or something then i think that would be the way to go.

[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited August 03, 2001).]

cutefix August 5th, 2001, 04:41 AM

I think its elemental silicon with a monomolecular layer of hydrogen adsorbed in the surface.I am surprised that at cryogenic temperatures the reaction was violent to be
estimated to be 8 times more than TNT.Common sense however dictates that a hot item in contact with a cold material will create a reaction that is usually vigorous.It looks
like some form of catalysis occured in this silicon environment, for such a spectacular release of energy was achieved.Somehow for the time being I do not see any practical
value,unless the true mechanism of this reaction is understood.Silicon is a unique material and had peculiar characterestic that make it suitable for semiconductors and solar
cells.I forsee a vast potentials for this novel reactions.
Silicon as a fuel is said to improve rocket propellant performance,therefore there is apossibility that it will improve also the explosive performance of future explosive

[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited August 05, 2001).]

Microtek August 5th, 2001, 07:31 AM

Did you notice that line where it said
"releases seven times as much energy as TNT, and explodes a million times faster."

Seven times as much energy is just about twice as much as NG, which is credible, but a million times faster thats about 20 times the speed of light. The question is if this
information is totally erroneous or if they mean something quite different from what they say.

-A- August 6th, 2001, 02:44 PM

I am a little confused with the article...
Fist of all, what the f*** is porous silicon???. In the article says this: "Porous silicon has a layer of hydrogen just one atom thick covering its surface.". Hydrogen??? where in
hell does the hydrogen comes from???.
Second, why is that silicon gets oxidised at very low temperatures?. They don't give an explanation for the reaction.
It also says this : "And using liquid oxygen rather than gas means there are lots of oxygen atoms at the silicon surface". who talked about using liquid oxigen? that's an idea
they have?. It sounds a little suicidal too...
Oh, and I agree with you. A million times faster than TNT???. Haha, Einstein was wrong... Who wrote that article???

Lagen August 6th, 2001, 02:55 PM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The group had cooled the silicon in a vacuum to the temperature of liquid nitrogen, when suddenly a leak in their equipment allowed air
into the device. The silicon exploded. "We realised immediately that oxygen was condensing on the sample ..."</font>The LOX came from the air. There would really be more
molecules of oxygen available and this may make it work, in a gaseous state the molecules are too far apart. BTW similar to coal/active carbon+LOX. Si and C have many
similar properties.

Anthony August 6th, 2001, 08:38 PM

"explodes a million times faster."

Maybe it doesn't mean "million" as in 1 000 000 but as in "much" or "lot's". People often use "million" to describe something in excess, especially when they don't know the
actual figure.

fightclub August 8th, 2001, 10:09 PM

They are right about: 7 times more energy because oxidation of Si to SiO2 (sand, quartz) gives around 7225 kcal/kg of Si (and that is what they are basing it on, the oxidation
of Silicon), but now the balanced --mixture- of Si with O2 would deliver about
3189 kcal/kg (thus the explosive mixture is about 3 times more energetic than TNT) compared to:

Carbon/LOX based explosive: 2136 kcal/kg (equimolar)

TNT: like 900-1100 kcal/kg,
Nitroglycerin: 1480 kcal/kg,
the well-known Octanitrocubane falls short of 2000 kcal/kg.

And, I am unsure (it is hard to say) about the detonation velocity but it is probably in the range of 7000-10,500 m/s.

6.9 x 10^9 m/s (speed of light is 2.998 x 10^8 m/s) is a definite exaggeration. What they meant to say: "explodes faster than TNT!".

"We are not your job. We are not how much you have in the bank. We are not the car you drive. We are not the contents of your wallet. We are the all-singing, all-dancing
crap of the world."

[This message has been edited by fightclub (edited August 08, 2001).]

cutefix August 9th, 2001, 02:44 AM

There are lot explosive power comparison that they base on the standard explosive like TNT.However if the comparison is against an abnormal explosive phenomena that
occurs in nature,it only means of explosive yield.There are a lot of explosion that are not considered normally as fast explosion but it still able to come-up with much
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energy.Just think of this Fuel- Air Explosives;it is estimated that its power is equivalent to five times that of TNT.If you look at it closely,it is unable to produce the detonation
velocity of the standard explosive.However the resulting power it produces from the exploding fireball is enormous and can surpass that particular chemical explosive....

Microtek August 9th, 2001, 04:15 AM

Fightclub: Are You sure that the energy of explosion that You posted for TNT is correct?
I seem to remember a figure around 2700 KJ/Kg
( 1000 Kcal = 4186 KJ ).

fightclub August 9th, 2001, 11:06 PM

Heat of explosion values.

megalomania August 10th, 2001, 01:34 AM

They probably meant it reacts a million times faster (as in reaction rate) and not it has a million times the explosive velocity. On these terms a factor of a million isn't all that

Submitted for your approvial, I just happen to have the article written by Dr. Kovalev around here somewhere... sonabitch I can't get remote access, but I do have some more
details until I can get to the local university in person.

Title: Strong Explosive Interaction of Hydrogenated Porous Silicon with Oxygen at Cryogenic Temperatures

Authors: Kovalev, D.a; Timoshenko, V. Yu.a; Knzner, N.a; Gross, E.a; Koch, F.a

Affiliations: a. Technische Universitt Mnchen, Physik-Department E16, D-85747, Garching, Germany

Abstract: We report new types of heterogeneous hydrogen-oxygen and silicon-oxygen branched chain reactions which have been found to proceed explosively after
the filling of pores of hydrogen-terminated porous silicon (Si) by condensed or liquid oxygen in the temperature range of 4.290 K. Infrared vibrational absorption
spectroscopy shows that, while initially Si nanocrystals assembling the layers have hydrogen-terminated surfaces, the final products of the reaction are SiO2 and H2O . Time-
resolved optical experiments show that the explosive reaction develops in a time scale of 10-6s . We emphasize the remarkable structural properties of porous Si layers which
are crucial for the strong explosive interaction.

Publisher: American Physical Society

This is from Vol: 87, Issue: 6, August 6, 2001 of Physical Review Letters.

While I am on the topic of looking at journals, I have the power to get just about any article one could want. Why here is a goody, the Journal of Propellants, Explosives, and
Pyrotechnics: This international journal provides a vital forum for the exchange of ideas in the areas of propellants, explosives, primers and pyrotechnics, and combustion and
detonation processes. Its coverage of propellants and explosives includes their preparation, investigation, analysis, testing and evaluation. Results of theoretical or practical
investigations into combustion and detonation processes such as internal ballistics of guns and rockets or high-explosive ballistics are also included.

Kind of sounds like what we do here http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I should reprint this in the intro.

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

[This message has been edited by megalomania (edited August 10, 2001).]

wantsomfet August 13th, 2001, 10:34 AM


This is the homepage of the "inventors". Click the link at the bottom of the page to see a video of a 6mg (!!!) sample.

for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://kangaroooo.cjb.net)

PrimoPyro August 6th, 2002, 06:51 AM

This is very simple electrochemistry as work here.

First of all, they do mean silicon, as in the elemental form of silicon. Porous silicon, like they said, has an unbelievable quantity of nanoscale holes in it's molecular structure.
The silicon itself is crystallized in the cubic system IIRC, just like carbon. But the (much) lower electronegativity of silicon, and the further atomic radii of its valence orbitals,
creates a much higher energy output when it combines with an electronegative molecule like diatomic oxygen, than say the same reaction with carbon would.

As the oxygen comes into contact with the PURE silicon, the highly energetic state of the electrons is disturbed. They are easily torn from their orbitals in a very rapid reaction
with the oxygen. The corresponding orbital rearrangement involves electrons cascading to lower energy states at a very rapid rate. This energy must go somewhere. Guess

Combine this with the scenario of LIQUID oxygen being involved, and you get this monstrous explosion. The thermal energy (cryogenic temperature) has nothing to do with the
energy output. Liquid oxygen has over 600 times the available oxygen content per volume than gaseous oxygen. At this pressure-volume configuration of only standard
atmospheric pressure and such incredible density, equilibrium STRONGLY favors dissipation/expansion. The oxygen literally rips through the silicon molecule invading all its
crevices with strong force.

As for the cryogenic temperature, the specific heat of oxygen and silicon is not high at all compared to heavier elements such as iron and above, and it takes minimal energy to
raise their temperature. The sheer energy release/mass to absorb it ratio is so high that those temperatures mean nothing with such a small mass and high surface area.



Mr Cool August 6th, 2002, 08:01 AM

Also, you'd get lots of lattice energy released when the SiO2 condenses, like when you burn Al or Mg, which you don't get with C.
I've heard that blocks of porous Al (produced from Al powder and a small amount of some sort of binder, I guess) are used as a sort of binary with LOX in some applications,
anyone got more info on this?

Chris The Great October 21st, 2004, 11:10 PM

I checked the site (it moved around a bit, the new link is http://www1.physik.tu-muenchen.de/~dclement/silanz/index.htm click on resultate) and it apperantly only has a
detonation velocity (at least what I assume is a det. velocity, I have no clue what any of that says, I just picked familiar words) is only 2.5km/s. I'm guessing this is because
the oxygen must travel to get at the silicon.

Temperature is estimated at 6750K :eek:


vurr December 5th, 2004, 03:49 PM

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"durch die groe inner Oberflche enthlt 1 cm3 mikro-porses Si etwa 10E22 Wasserstoff-Atome an der Oberflche (in der Gasform entsprche das etwa 1,2 l H2-Gas"
1.2 litres of hydrogen in 1cm^3...????
+porous Si
nice mix.

Jacks Complete December 5th, 2004, 06:34 PM

Is this really news, though?

You take almost anything at room temperature, add LOX, and you get a damned fast burn.

Iron burns in air if you divide it finely - just stick a 9v battery into it, or a match. Corn flour will explode as a dust, just in the atmosphere, which is gaseous and only about
21% oxygen.

Combine the two, and *surprise* you get an even faster burn.

You can do the same with any finely divided fuel, and LOX. The real trick would be to take the LOX and soak the fuel in it *without* it going pop, and then being able to set it
off when you wanted, rather than just on contact. This would allow far better conversion of the available fuel, and hence far more powerful explosions.

You can make this stuff really easily, too. Just work out where to buy LOX from, then make yourself the porous silicon. You make it by taking some silicon, and dissolve the
impurities out with acid. Not difficult.


Etching Technique

Nanoporous silicon is made by passing electric current through silicon that is in contact with a strong acid solution. An acid "front" nibbles away into the silicon and as it
advances it leaves behind a sponge-like structure that is full of linked passages or "pores". The pores are only about ten nanometers across; that is, they are only about twenty
silicon atomic spacings wide (compared to the lattice parameter of the silicon wafer) and so small that not even a 'flu virus could fit in them. The current used controls the
fraction of silicon that dissolves where the front of acid has reached, so by varying the current as the etching progresses we can vary the porosity from place to place. Thus, we
can design and control the exact porosity profile of a sample.

This shouldn't be too hard to do at home.

nbk2000 December 6th, 2004, 06:41 PM

I wonder how well uranium hexafluoride atoms would fit through such silica nanopores, and at what rate would the 235 pass through compared to the larger 238, seeing as
how easily it's made at home (the silica filters)? ;)

Marvin December 6th, 2004, 07:37 PM

Nice idea but I would suspect it would effuse, to diffuse the pores need to be of comparable size to the molecules. I would also expect it to attack the silicon.

Jacks Complete December 8th, 2004, 04:35 PM

Which, given the rate of reaction with LOX, could be pretty impressive!

Radioactive liquid gas that explodes like a huge bomb, as the fluorine reacts with the silicon *even faster* than the LOX?

Dirty nuke?

Pb1 December 11th, 2004, 03:42 PM

The problem with NBKs idea is that UF6 is extremely reactive. In fact, one of the few materials they could use to enrich the uranium was Teflon because its so inert. It
will undoubtedly destroy glass, so silicon would definitely not work.

FUTI December 13th, 2004, 07:18 AM

Al is often used in rocket fuels IIRC buster rockets use it in combination with ammonium-perchlorate...is something similar posible with Si?

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Nitrate fertilizer question

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stanfield August 29th, 2001, 03:34 AM

W hat's the m inimun "concentration" of sodium nitrate fertilizer grade ? and/or pottassium/am monium nitrate...


Disturbed August 29th, 2001, 04:36 AM

W hat exactly do you m e a n ? M i n i m u m concentration that you can buy, or minim u m n e e d e d t o u s e f o r e x p l o s i v e s / i n c i n d i a r i e s ?
As for the m inim um you can buy, I'd g uess you could find percentages of pure KNO3 or NaNO3 as low as 5-10%... there's a
hell of a lot of different blends of fertilizers out there!

k e i n m itleid fur die m ehrheit

stanfield August 29th, 2001, 07:11 AM

I m ean :
In a 5kg bag I buy, how m uch pure Na NO3 is in ? (sorry for my bad english...)
On the bag (sodium nitrate) is wrote :
- AZO TE NITRIQUE (NITRIC AZOT in english huh ?) NO3 : 16%
- O x y d e d e s o d i u m (sodium o x y d e . . . ) N a 2 O : 3 5 %

see ya !

mongo blongo August 29th, 2001, 02:59 PM

I use this stuff called Nitrate of Soda. It is prilled and it is coated in som e shit. Ju st purify by crystallization.

kingspaz August 29th, 2001, 06:05 PM

s o d a = s o d i u m s o n i t r a t e o f s o d a = s o dium nitrate http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/sm ile.gif....dam i hate the
fucking old chem ical nam e s .

stanfield August 30th, 2001, 06:54 AM

this dont help me knowing how much NaNo3 is in 1 bag of 5Kg...

Mr Cool August 30th, 2001, 12:59 PM

They break it down when writing out what it contains into (normally) nitrogen and K2O or Na2O.
O n m y bag of KNO3 it says: 13.5% N, 46.2% K2O , even though it actually contains no K2O.
So what you have is more-or-less pure NaNO3.

stanfield August 30th, 2001, 05:18 PM

Alrig ht, thanx.
Even if it is relatively pure, som etimes, I can find some dark particles which are impurities, do you think there is a way to purify
this fertilizer ? I've heard a method wh ere the guy dissolved NaNO3 in water then he boiled down this solution or he filter it, I
can't rem ember... W hat do yo u think ?

see ya !

mongo blongo August 30th, 2001, 11:09 PM

This how i do it:-
Boil som e water in a pan (abo ut 1/4 full)
W hen boiling dissolve as much NaNO3 as you can and then remove heat. Filter when hot and your filtrate will be pla ced in a
frige. This will cool do wn the solution and NaNO3 will crystallize out.
I s t h i s g o o d o r d o e s a n y o n e e l s e h a v e a better m e y h o d ?

Anthony August 31st, 2001, 12:06 AM

Considering how soluble NaNO 3 is, it's likely that the im purities would crystalise out first. So using the above m ethod you'd get
all your im purities back, with less NaNO3 than you started with (still disso lved). So you'd actually m ake your NaNO 3 less pure.

mark August 31st, 2001, 01:12 AM

W hat brand of fertilizer is rocket grade k n o 3 ?

Mr Cool August 31st, 2001, 02:10 PM

I t d e p e n d s h ow pure you want your "ro cket grade" KNO 3 to be. That isn't a standard m easure of purity...

mark August 31st, 2001, 07:39 PM

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9 0 % P l e a s e g i v e a b r a n d n a m e, or what kind of gardening its assosciated with.

[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y m ark (edited August 31, 2001).]

mongo blongo S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 12:14 PM

H a s a n y o n e g o t a b e t t e r m e t h o d t o p u rify this NaNO3 fertilizer?

stanfield S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 01:53 PM

no idea, but anthony is right cause, even if you dissolve the fertilizer, when you filter your solution, impurities are still here !

see ya...

mark S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 03:45 PM

A n y o n e h a v e an asnswer to m y question? I know som e b o d y d o e s , s e i n g a s s o m e body owns a bag of kno3 fertilizer.

[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y m a r k ( e d i t e d S e p t e m ber 01, 2001).]

Tony Montana S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 09:28 PM

http://www.sqm .com.au/Brochures/SQ Mleaflets.NPC.pdf
http://www.sqm .com.au/Brochures/KNO 3/KNO3%20brochure%20History.pdf

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > picric acid problem...

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stanfield August 30th, 2001, 06:52 AM

I bought picric acid but the Co . sell this stuff with 40% H2O to delete the explosive danger...
My question is : anyo ne has some good ways to dry this acid whitout setting me off ?


kingspaz August 30th, 2001, 09:13 AM

you could use a drying agent like dehydrated C uSO4. or m aybe heat it up in a water bath. that way the tem perature would
never be able to rise above 100*. but that m ethod would depend on TNP's stability at elevated temperatures.

stanfield August 30th, 2001, 10:09 AM

no danger because TNP will explode at 300C right ?

kingspaz August 30th, 2001, 06:29 PM

dunno if it explodes at that te mp. you'll need an expert opinion for that!!...the water bath would be quicker but will not get it
a s d ry as using the dehydrated copper sulphate. but it should gt it dry enough to be of use.

Rhadon September 2 nd, 2001, 08:24 PM

C a l c i u m c h l o r i d e c a n a l s o b e u s e d a s a d r y i n g a g e n t , b u t I t h i n k w i t h t h e h e a t i n g m e t h o d k i n g s p a z m e n t i o n e d i s b e tter. It
s h o u l d b e h a r m less: Picric acid will only deflagrate when it's heated above 225 C, detonating it without intention by heating it
s e e m s im p o s s i b l e t o m e .

stanfield S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 10:32 AM

I think I could use my "halogen" lamp (correct translate ?), It warm a lot when pushed to m a x i m u m ... (I'm using this one to
dry m y h e x a m ine solution...)

see ya !

Mr Cool S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 11:27 AM

You could use a water bath, a dessicator with CuSO 4, H2SO4, CaCl etc in, put it in the airing cupbo ard, put it in a low oven, or
just leave it out in the open!

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Methylene Chloride

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Microtek August 30th, 2001, 01:17 PM

H a s a n y o n e g o t a g o o d s y n t h e s i s o f m ethylene chloride ( C H2Cl2 ) which c a n b e d o n e i n t h e h o m e lab ? If possible, post a few
alternate me thods even if they are not optim al, as I do not have access to many of the precursors that the rest of you do.

Mr Cool August 30th, 2001, 05:49 PM

I'm not sure if it'd work, but the first thing I thought of was form a l d e h y d e a n d h y d r o g e n c h l o r i d e ( a q u e o u s o r g a s e o u s ) .

C H 2 O + 2HCl --> CH2Cl2 + H2O

Try m i x i n g 3 7 % f o r m a l d e h y d e s o l u t i o n a n d 3 0 % H C l ( b o t h c a n b e b o u g h t easily in hardware/DIY stores), and see if anything


shooter3 August 30th, 2001, 06:47 PM

Methylene Cloride is a cheap solvent u s e d i n c l e a n i n g u p e p o x y r e s i n . M o s t m arine supply stores carry "West Marine" brand
M.C. for about $18.00 Gallon.

Berserker August 30th, 2001, 08:41 PM

It's also known as dichloromethane, and apparently it can be bo ught in big drum s at paint and varnish stores. From m e m o r y ,
it the main costituent of som e sort of car starter fluid, a long with som e e t h a n o l , I b e l i e v e .

Anthony August 31st, 2001, 12:10 AM

W hen I look at paint stipping products in a DIY s t o r e , a b o u t 9 0 % o f t h e m s a y " c o n t a i n s d i c h l o m e t h a n e a n d m ethanol". It m ay
be possible that a nice cheap brand is just m ethylene chloride and methanol without any other funky shit added.

Microtek August 31st, 2001, 04:35 AM

The problem is that I live in one of those countries which discourages the use of m any chem icals ( but is rather lenient on
s o m e others ). I can get 62% HNO3, 9 6 % H 2 S O 4 , h e x a m i n e , 3 0 % H C l , 4 0 % H 2 O 2 a n d m any technical grades of other
chemicals, but m etha nol, form a l d e h y d e s o l n , u rea, etc are unavailable.

Microtek S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 08:28 AM

Just in case there are s o m e that don't know:
Methylene chloride ca n be used to extract
98-100% HNO 3 from a m ix of 90+% H2SO4 an d 4 0 + % H N O 3 . T h e m e t h o d s e e m s e a s y ( a n d i t ' s p a t e n t e t , s o i t s h o u l d b e
functional ), and the m ethylene chloride could be recovered after the extraction, so in essence it's only the HNO3 that is
consumed. Also, there is no need to heat the HNO3 to m ore than 40C, so decomposition should not be a problem. Yield can
be as high as 80%.
All in all, I th ink this is a worthwhile m e t h o d t o p e r s u e .

10fingers S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 11:33 AM

Microtek, I saw the patent for this and it sounds very interesting. I think it was originally posted by Tony Montana a few weeks
ago. He was going to try it but as yet I have not heard what happened.
Also, I have been doing a lot of searching for a procedure to m a k e m eth ylene chloride but strangely cannot find anything.
Most paint removers contain it but it has other ingredients and it would probably not be worthwhile to separate them .

Demolition S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2001, 08:25 AM

I can get paint stripper containing 90% Methylene Chloride and 10% m ethanol.If I wish to use this would I have to separate
the m e t h a n o l from th e m ethylene chlo ride?If so how wo uld I go about doing this.

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/m a f s e x plosives/
D e m olition

Microtek S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2001, 11:03 AM

You can distil off the C H2Cl2 ( bp ca 40C ).
The vapors are heavier than air, so a very sim p l e s e t u p c a n b e u s e d .
Could you specify which brand it is that has this high a content o f C H 2 C l 2 ?

CodeMason S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2001, 08:47 PM

I think it can be done by the reaction of m ethane and chlorine g asses in the presence of UV radiation. So whip out that dark
lam p a n d h e a d o u t t o t h e o l ' c o m p o s t h e a p . h t t p : / / t h e f o r u m .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif

Microtek S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2001, 07:43 AM

I found two ways to m ake it:

- The one with chlorin e and methane gas and UV light, which is a bit cum b e r s o m e for m e
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- Ca talytical hydrochlorination of methanol ( this was all it said ). This sounds somewhat m ore interesting, depending on what
sort of catalyst you'd need.

wantsomfet S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2001, 08:11 AM

T h e p a t e n t i s U S Pat No. 3,981,975 "Preparatio n of anhydrous nitric acid"
It's on my site... http://rain.prohosting.com / ~ f u s s b a 0 9 / P _ 3 , 9 8 1 , 9 7 5 . z i p

for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://ka ngaroooo.cjb.net)

Tony Montana S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2001, 08:52 AM

Microtek, it d oes not say where you are from, so???? Bu t I assume you want to concentrate HNO3, anyway CH2CL2 (Methylene
Chloride) is widely available. I purchase it from a store that thinks I use it as a urethane solvent, that is from: http://
www.oilchem .com .au/ but I am sure yo u can fin d a store like this near yo u? As stated it is also widely used as a paint stripper,
http://www.solvents.net/MSDS/Methclor.htm but this is in Australia! I have used this chem ical, and can understand its
carcinogenic and also hem ogloban altering properties, if you do get it, and use it. Think about why so many people stopped
using it!!!!!(same as carbon tetrachloride)and wear a ga s m a s k !

SATA NIC S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2001, 08:29 AM

i found it at woolworths / roelf vos in aus, 960 gm / L m ethylene chloride, 130 gm / L m ethanol. ( 500m l for$10 )how would
you seperate the two, and how is the process of concentrated nitric acid carried out? can't download that dam n patent.

Demolition S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2001, 08:46 AM

In short equal parts of 70% hno3 and 98% are added.Methylene chloride is then added,stirred and mixed up with the hno3
and h2so4.After leaving it for a little while 2 distinct layers should form . R e m ove the top layer using an eye dropper,ect and
then leave the bottom mixture outside for a while,the m ethylene chloride will evaporate off leaving you with 98%+ nitric acid.
The patent covers it in more detail.
To distill the methylene chloride out of that paint stripper im guessing you could sim ply boil it at 40C,collect the vapors in
tubing running it under cold water into another flask to collect pure Methylene chloride.I know its vague but I'm pretty sure you
get the picture.W ould this method work?

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/m a f s e x plosives/
D e m olition

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > extracting iodene

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skunkdude August 30th, 2001, 11:22 PM

how would one go about extracting iodene from a diluted "water purifying" product?

PYRO500 August 30th, 2001, 11:54 PM

First of all it's IODINE! and we need to know the concentration of iodine in your solution before we can advise anythig, you could sublimate it onto a piece of glass if the
concentration was high enough

Berserker August 31st, 2001, 11:16 AM

$50 says LL k3wl J here wants to make some NI<sub>3</sub>. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Disturbed August 31st, 2001, 02:55 PM

That or drugs http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
but yea, prolly NI3.
that stuff is a blast tho [literally]
I don't think that anything is better for pranks than small amounts of it.

kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

Fingerless August 31st, 2001, 08:04 PM

Heat it.

skunkdude September 1st, 2001, 07:47 PM

i'm unsure of the concerntration but i'm pretty sure its only about 6% http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif
Berserker,what leads you to believe i'm kewl?

kingspaz September 1st, 2001, 08:03 PM

if you heat it which part comes off first the water or the iodine?....maybe there is a way to distill it off and allow it to crystilise inside the tube then scrape it out.

Monkeyman666 September 2nd, 2001, 01:39 AM

I have rarely had good results on extracting it by heating it, so I would just buy some. Its very hard to get, except for on ebay. The only down fall is that you have to buy like
2 lbs for about $100+


Anthony September 2nd, 2001, 08:01 PM

Skylighter sells it.

Cricket September 2nd, 2001, 08:23 PM

Yea, but that have restrictions on it (like 2 oz a year or something) and it is very expensive ($20 an oz I think). And they are really a hassle to order from. You have to provide
a picture ID and a good photocopy of your drivers license and a lot of stupid shit.

"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania

jin September 2nd, 2001, 10:37 PM

you can extract iodine from seaweed.first burn the seaweed to ash then grind to a fine powder add the powder to nitric acid and distill the iodine gas that comes off.dont know
what concentration of nitric acid you use.

CodeMason September 3rd, 2001, 05:49 AM

I don't like aiding newbs, but for the others on the forum, consider the following reaction:

<font face="courier new" size=2>2NaI(aq) + 2HCl + H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> -> I<sub>2</sub>(s) + 2NaCl(aq) + 2H<sub>2</sub>O</font>

This works fine with common 6% H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> and 30% HCl, and the NaI can be bought at any pool store cheaply.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Am m onia chem istry questions.

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View Full Version : Ammonia chemistry questions.

FadeToBlackened A ugus t 7t h, 2001, 06: 24 PM

I ram ble a bit but ple a s e r e a d a n d r e s p o n d i f p o s s i b l e .

Yesterday, while reading KIBC's HTMD procedure, I started thinking m aybe I could make AP with am m o n i u m sulfate. Then I
r e m e m bered Philou said acetone reacts with amm onia to form 'im ides and their polym ers'. I didnt know wh at an imide was, so
I l o o k e d i n a dictionary (useful, but with lim itations).

I h a v e s o m e q u e s t i o n s . A m ides are sim ilar to im ides, a n d a m ines are sim ilar to imines. What is the difference? I know
a m ides/im ides have acyl grou ps, while am ines/im ines have alkyl groups. Are im ides/im ines just secondary (i think?) am i n e s ?
Also, how are 'coordination com plexes' form ed, like Cu(NH3)4++ and sim ilar?

Any responses greatly appreciated.

[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited August 07, 2001).]

Hex A ugus t 8t h, 2001, 02: 20 PM

Am ine structure is R3N where R is an a lkyl grou p or Hydrogen
Am ide structure is R2N(C=O )R where R i s a s a b o v e
Imine structure is R2C=N-H
Imide structure is HN[(C=O)R]2 (the R groups m ay be different)
Sorry, it's very hard to draw structures like this, these probably a ren't very clear.. Perhaps som e o n e s m arter than me can get
s o m e c h e m d raw pictu res of these grou p s u p .
All o f these groups have very different properties. A good, basic organic textbook is a sound investment for any non-chem ist
who's going to m e s s a r o u n d . T h e m o r e y o u k n o w , t h e s a f e r y o u ' l l b e .
As for how co-ordination comp l e x e s a r e f o r m e d - that would need a long answer involving a discussion of d-orbital sym m etry
a n d J T d i s t o r t i o n s . I s u p p o s e y o u c a o u l d c o n s i d e r t h e m a s m eta l ions surround by groups, say NH3 for instance (often called
"ligands" when referring to com p l e x e s )
The difference between these com pound and "ordinary salts" is (and I know I'm generalising big time here)
1) Involve transiton metals - not ones in group I or II of the periodic tab le
2) ligands may not be (formally) charged, ie NH3 is a com mon ligand. Group I and II salts involve ions "exclusively"
3) com p l e x e d l i g a n d s a r e o f t e n e a s y t o r e m ove/replace and are held less tightly than in GI and II salts.

Any inorganic chem ists out there - feel free to correct any shocking errors, but bear in m in d I'm just sketching an idea for a
n o n - c h e m i s t b e f o r e y o u s l a u g h t e r m e...

[This message has been edited by Hex (edited August 08, 2001).]

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > H2O2 ways to concentrate 3% ?

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A-BOMB August 20th, 2001, 03:36 PM

I was wondering if you could use electrolysis to break down the water in the hydrogen peroxide to concentrate it to a higher

live by the bomb
die by the bomb

kingspaz August 20th, 2001, 06:58 PM

good try but the electrolysis will also break down the H2O2 into H2 and O2.
i believe its possible to separate by difference of freezing points. if you lower the temperature of the solution to between 0.1
and 0.3 *C then the water will freeze but the peroxide with a slightly lower freezing point will not(i think its 0.4 or 0.6 - can
someone tell me please?). anywasy you can pull the ice out which removes water therefore raising H2O2 concentration.

Mr Cool August 21st, 2001, 09:36 AM

Why bother? 3% works for organic peroxides. Concentrating it will make the reaction a bit faster, but it isn't worth it.

A-BOMB August 21st, 2001, 09:39 AM

Maybe I could distill them or is there any chemical that would breakdown the water and not the h2o2? And I tried the freezing
idea and the h202 gets froze in the h20 and thats bad.

live by the bomb
die by the bomb

Mr Cool August 21st, 2001, 09:46 AM

Unless you're making rocket fuel DON'T BOTHER!!!
Vaccuum distilation is a possibility.

A-BOMB August 21st, 2001, 12:37 PM

Well, I just wanted to concentrate it for AP.
So any more ideas to concentrate H2O2?

live by the bomb
die by the bomb

Anthony August 21st, 2001, 04:38 PM

In any purification process, you will loose some H2O2. Therefore you will actually get LESS AP for a given amount of your
starting H2O2 solution than if you just used it as is.

10fingers August 21st, 2001, 06:33 PM

I've concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide by heating it. I did not think at first that this would work but it does.
Put a quart of 3% H2O2 in a glass pot and very gently heat it, just enough so that you can see a slight vapor. Heat until there
is an ounce or two left. Takes several hours.
I have gotten the concentration up to around 15% this way.

BrAiNFeVeR August 21st, 2001, 07:59 PM

How did you measured that percentage ??

10fingers August 21st, 2001, 08:45 PM

I compared it to some 12% stuff that I bought. The yield was slightly higher.

Disturbed August 22nd, 2001, 04:39 PM

when you boiled down your H2O2, did you get consistent results regarding how much AP you end up with? I have always boiled
down my H2O2, starting w/ about 500ml of 3%, to about 50ml of what I assumed is 30ish %. I have tried making a small
amount of AP using real 30%, but the yield seemed about the same as my boiled H2O2, so I just use that. I think that I'll
prolly try to find some 30% H2O2 locally to verify this. If any of you other ppl have different results using boiled H2O2 vs store
bought 30%, I'd like to hear those too!

A-BOMB August 22nd, 2001, 04:52 PM

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10fingers, how hot did you heat your h2o2 for it to fume and i thought that heat destroys h2o2?

live by the bomb
die by the bomb

BrAiNFeVeR August 22nd, 2001, 07:33 PM

Not heat, but UV-light destroys H2O2 (i think) thats why i keep my H2O2 in the dark !!

PS: i still don't understand why you guys want to purify your hydrogen peroxide, since you will always lose some this way ...

"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

10fingers August 22nd, 2001, 08:21 PM

"ONE" gets consistent results with the concentrated stuff.
You must apply just enough heat so that you see a little water vapor coming off. It takes several hours to do a quart. It is
heated until it is about 1/10th it's original volume but I am sure it is nowhere near 30%.
"ONE" has never had good results using 3%. Some of the H2O2 is probably lost in the process but it works.

[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited August 22, 2001).]

Disturbed August 24th, 2001, 02:13 AM

There's just way too much controversy surrounding H2O2.. does anyone out there know the actual decomposition temp of
H2O2? Is it consistent, or does it change with concentration? I was always under the impression that using conventional means
[vaccuum distillation] you could only get H2O2 up to about 60-70%. I do know that it is unstable at room temp, as 30%
decays about 3% a year, with the higher concentrations even faster.

BrAiNFeVeR August 24th, 2001, 05:00 AM

OK, no longer "i have heard" !! I need real facts and numbers for this !
Decomposition temperature and all the works !! (UV-light ?)

"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

A-BOMB August 24th, 2001, 11:34 AM

Its somewhere in between 86-90 or so desgrees F I think.

live by the bomb
die by the bomb

Disturbed August 24th, 2001, 05:23 PM

if it is at that temperature, it must take place very slowly.. I'm not all that careful when i boil my H2O2.. I just pour 8 or 10
bottles in a big pot, put that on the highest setting on my stove, and leave it there for a couple hours to boil down to about 1/
10th its starting volume. This works just fine for me, I just made some AP using it last nite, and I got a pretty damn good
yield, as the whole jar is full or crystals, with only a little liquid in there [leftover water]

Ezikiel August 25th, 2001, 02:52 PM

How is 100% H2O2 made for rocket fuel purposes ?
I am only aware of a couple of processes that give a concentration of about 30-35%. (Merck's Process)
Actually that is a pretty good way to make H2O2 at home.
but how is 100% made ?

"Chance favours the prepared mind"

Mr Cool August 25th, 2001, 06:17 PM

Careful multi-stage vaccuum distillation can get you to >90%
What you need to be thinking about is not decomposition temperature but half-life at a certain temperature and
concentration. H2O2 will decompose even at 1% at RTP, but slowly. You can boil H2O2, which happens at a temperature of
above 100*C, but this makes it decompose much faster.

So if you boil the 3% H2O2, it will heat to 100*C and the water will start to boil off and it will get more concentrated. H2O2 will
also decompose, but at the start the water will boil off at a greater rate than that at which the H2O2 is decomposing. As the
concentration of water drops, it boils off less rapidly (in terms of grams/minute), and this means that the rate at which the
H2O2 is being conentrated by the water boiling off is reduced due to the fact that the rate of H2O2 decomposition stays the
same, but the rate of water boiling off drops. So after a certain point, your H2O2 will get less concentrated again.

Someone please try to explain that better than I have done!

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BrAiNFeVeR August 26th, 2001, 07:29 AM
I Think you did it just fine, so the further in the boiling process, the more accurate the temperature must be to obtain a
concentration as high as possible, otherwise the H2O2 will evaporate too.
Simplified, but most of the people around here will appreciate your version more, since it explains it better ;-))

"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

Disturbed August 28th, 2001, 03:00 AM

H2O2, 100%, boils at 150*c, 30% at about 106, and 3% at just about 100*c.
Also, 10% H2O2 can all boil off due to its highly exothermic reactions w/ any contaminants present.
And lastly, at 63-64% concentration, H2O2 decomposition becomes self-sustaining.. so if it starts to break down, it's all going
to break down!

Hope that helps a bit..

found that stuff from www.H2O2.com (http://www.H2O2.com)

kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

BrAiNFeVeR August 28th, 2001, 05:26 AM

Now that is the kind of information we need !!
So if I understand this well, there's no way to concentrate it when the original percentage H2O2 is below 3%, as it boils @ 100
C, just like water (pure) does ...
If, on the other hand, you could find something to lower the boiling temperature of the water (adding an alcohol ?) would that
work ?? Or would you lower the boiling temperature of the H2O2 also ??
I guess it just won't be all that simple ...

"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

kingspaz August 28th, 2001, 07:12 PM

if you add alcohol to the water then when 76*c(think thats ethanols boiling point) is reached the alcohol will boil leaving the
water and H2O2 behind.

Disturbed August 29th, 2001, 04:28 AM

You should be able to concentrate even low percentages just like you would be able to concentrate sulfuric acid.. as the water
and H2O2 don't form an azeotrope like w/ Nitric acid or anything.

kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

PHILOU Zrealone September 5th, 2001, 04:34 PM

H2O2 is by its very nature unstable!
Temperature is bad for it since it produces radicals (radical decomposition of H2O2 is autocatalytic and selfsustaining).Temp
also produce more dissociation of the water and thus more OH- anions that are catalytic for the earlier process! Metal ions also
does catalyse the decomposition (ever tried a single cristal of KMnO4 or MnO2 into a 1L H2O2 30%...O2 gone in a minute).

So keep cool and acidic!!!

"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

kingspaz September 5th, 2001, 05:34 PM

this is off topic but is kind of relevent. leaking H2O2 sank the Kursk sub of the coast of norway. the H2O2 was used for
oxygen supply for the torpedo engines. somebody started the engine before the torpedo was in the water which increased
engine revs dramatically as there was little resistance compared to when in the water. anyway the end result was that H2O2
leaked contacting copper and brass internal parts of the torpedo. this inturn released oxygen which built up pressure in the
torpedo hull eventaully resulting in an explosion. you can guess the rest. i saw it on a decumentary on BBc 2.

Anthony September 6th, 2001, 04:29 PM

I think this method of concentrating H2O2 by heating would take some trial and error to makes sure you didn't go to far and
have whole lot decompose on you.

I saw that program too, the amazing bit is that the torpedo casing rupturing (essentially a pressure bottle explosion) was
picked up by a seismology station in the UK - half way around the world! Makes me wonder if I ever produce any little spikes
on their graphshttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
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BrAiNFeVeR September 8th, 2001, 04:51 AM
It's just that water makes an excellent shockwave carrier for long distances.
I once threw a large cracker of a dam somewhere in France (i was standing on the dam) and threw it as far as i could, and i
swear, the entire thing was shacking!! Me and my nephew totally cracked up, and then left before someone came to make any
Please note that this was only a cracker that can be bought in any store, with a rock attached to it !

"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

A-BOMB September 9th, 2001, 10:14 PM

Brain? what does water shockwaves have to do with H2O2 concentrating?

live by the bomb
die by the bomb

VasiaPupkin September 10th, 2001, 01:28 PM

Its not possible to make better concentration of H2O2 by cooling. Mixture will freeze all. In all kind of concentration... Info
from book "Non organic chemistry" Vol. 2 by Novicov (translated to english) "Its possible to rise H2O2 concentration up to 30%
by evaporation of 3%H2O2 medical solution in clear glass. In 60-70 C temperature. Yeild good -near 95%" My friend prepared
H2O2 (I think it was near 30% concentration) from 3% H2O2. He simply poured out 3% H2O2 into flat open glass and cover
by list of paper at room temperature (be sure in the dark) at 3 days. H2O2 solutions most stable in pH 3.5-4.5. One non
detailed way to make H2O2 is "anode oxidation" (kind of electrolyse) of weak H2SO4 solutions: 1) 2H2SO4 -2e => H2S2O8 +
2H+ 2) H2S2O8 + H2O => H2SO5 + H2SO4 3) H2SO5 + H2O => H2O2 + H2SO4. It possible to prepare H2O2 with great and
dangerous concentration. But it need a pure H2SO4 and coal electrodes... Can you buy a "hydropirite" tablets (solid
CO(NH2)2.H2O2)in drugstore? Somethimes its useful to AP making. But I have bought 1 L of pure 50%H2O2. And have no
problems now 8)

BrAiNFeVeR September 17th, 2001, 11:57 AM

That was a reply to a post that seems to be deleted ...

"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

A-BOMB September 17th, 2001, 12:40 PM

Ok thanx everyone put I dont have any chemicals anymore or apporatus because I fire in my lab and melted and burnt http:/
/theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif everything in there including the h2o2 (all 12 liters of it)I was going to
concentrate it was a wierd fire in that the AP in the chared can had the rubber seal melted put the AP didn't go off and the
strike-anywear matchs right next to it didn't light but the box ontop of it did and that something I had in there made all of my
tools get rusted over in the day after even though not rusty the day before and firecraker right on the table didn't light but the
tissu wrapper burned whats up with that and i'll put up a pic of the burn AP can. You got to see this!

live by the bomb
die by the bomb

[This message has been edited by A-BOMB (edited September 17, 2001).]

Tristin September 29th, 2001, 11:14 PM

This guy makes 90% H202 http://www.tecaeromex.com/ingles/indexi.html

Check out the H202 distillation link.

NoltaiR March 14th, 2002, 01:56 AM

Ok, finally found the old thread on purifying H2O2!

Anyways I am currently boiling some 3% H2O2 at 105*C. If any of you new members have some comments on this method,
please do.

NoltaiR March 14th, 2002, 02:29 AM

Well I stopped boiling mine once it was about 1/10th as everyone seems to agree on here. It is currently cooling for a few
minutes in my freezer. The main thing I did notice is that over time, it required more and more heat to keep a steady boil,
which could be proof of disturbed's statement about 3% boiling at 100, 30 boiling at 106, etc.

Kalium March 14th, 2002, 10:33 AM

You can make H202 more conc. by evapuration( Temperature should be 60`C )

RTC March 14th, 2002, 10:43 AM

<a href="http://theforum.has.it" target="_blank">http://theforum.has.it</a> - a zip file that has 5files on concentrating h2o2.
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A-BOMB March 14th, 2002, 12:35 PM
Wow I forgot I even that I started this topic. And I've found a few things out after my fire is that I find that if you make AP
with a very low concertation of hydrogen peroxide (like 1.5 percent thats what I'm using now) you get smaller crystals or what
ever of AP and it burn/deflagrates faster and detonates better(well for me that is).

NoltaiR March 14th, 2002, 07:31 PM

1.5%? I get such a crappy product at 3% that its not worth the time. What kind of ratio would you use with 1.5?!?

Anthony March 14th, 2002, 07:40 PM

The standard 6:1 acetone:pure H2O2 ratio

Rat Bastard March 14th, 2002, 08:46 PM

I have 6%. Should I even bother to concentrate it?

Anthony March 14th, 2002, 08:53 PM

I wouldn't because you'll loose some H2O2 in the concentration process, giving you less AP or HMTD for what you spent on the
6%. Might be worth it if you want a more convinient to use concentration of H2O2 though.

A-BOMB March 14th, 2002, 10:28 PM

Any way the lower the percentage the longer for the reaction to take place meaning a reaction temp. Means smaller crystals of
AP(or whatever) which means at least in my tests it burns/deflagrates faster than with 30% or even 6%.

NoltaiR March 14th, 2002, 11:47 PM

Well the AP that I am currently making (it is now in a shed sitting in a ice/salt bath) used the ratios given on mega's site of
50mL acetone: 30mL 30% H2O2: 3mL 75% H2SO4. Except that I am using 3% H2O2 that I boiled down. (Also I sized up the
amount a little bit and I am using 150mL acetone: 90mL H2O2 : 8mL 91% H2SO4)

And boiling the H2O2 definetly affected the reaction time.. the last AP I made, I used 3%, just 10 times the given amount.
And you are right about it making smaller crystals although I hardly think it is worth it because there wasn't much (if any)
visible difference as far as brisance goes however it took 4 days to get a satisfiable amount (Which even then it worried me
because much of it had evaporated leaving dry precipitate on the sides.. I can't believe it didn't detonate on its own because I
was using H2SO4. But as soon as I was ready to remove them I just slowly filled the beaker the rest of the way with water then
filtered it out.)

Anyways what I was saying about reaction time. The last AP I made, I added in the H2SO4 in a slow stream from the pipet and
it barely broke 10*C from the original 4*C and even then it quickly returned to its original temp. This stuff I am making right
now was made by adding the H2SO4 in just a medium-fast drip and when I only had half the acid in, it was steaming! (I wasn't
paying attention to the thermometer, and when it started steaming I immediately quit adding the acid and checked the temp..
it had reached at least 27*C.. it only took about 10 minutes of adding a lot of ice to the ice bath to get the temp back down
below 10*C but I hope this little accident won't effect my product much--if anything I expect it to probably have a bit more of
the dimeric this time.. so I will have to be extra careful). After about 30 minutes of sitting it was down to 5*C and then I slowly
added a mL at a time every 15 minutes to make sure I didn't heat it up again.

NoltaiR March 14th, 2002, 11:55 PM

And one more thing, the stuff I boiled down last night started at 1 quart (approx 950mL) and when it finished it was down to
90mL. It smelled much stronger than the 3% (obviously, although I shouldn't have smelled it). However while it was boiling I
was reading that UV light breaks down the H2O2. Well this was at night and only a dim light was on.. will this affect it much?
Also I read today that H2O2 normally decomposes slowly, however metal catalises (spelling?) it so it decomposes more so i
am not sure if me boiling it in a galvenized steel pot hurt it very much.

Pu239 Stuchtiger March 15th, 2002, 05:53 PM

I'm not completely sure about this (pulling this info off of the top of my head) but I'm fairly sure that some phosphates are
used to stabilize hydrogen peroxide solutions.

VX March 15th, 2002, 06:48 PM

No, the light will have made practicaly no difference what so ever to it's con. Even storing in daylight (not direct sun) only
results in a fairly slow breakdown of the H2O2.

Anyway you say that is smells strong. I might be wrong but I thought that H202 had no smell... my 30% hasn't anyway.

NoltaiR March 15th, 2002, 07:01 PM

When I said it smelled strong, I meant compared to the 3% which doesn't have a noticeable smell (that I can detect). If it was
compared to other smells in general, it was quite faint but I can't really describe it.

NoltaiR March 15th, 2002, 08:00 PM

And also some of you guys say not to purify it because some H2O2 will be lost. The problem with this is that when it is low
then the reaction takes twice as long and there is more of a chance that your temp will rise above 10*C because the ice bath
only stays cold so long before it has to be refilled. Well I guess if you put in a refrigerator that wouldn't matter.
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Also H2O2 only costs about 80 cents a quart, so buying more is not a problem.

kingspaz March 16th, 2002, 01:56 PM

yup, phosphoric acid is used to stabilise the H2O2. well atleast it is in mine.
hmmmm.....galvanised steel. thats zinc plated isn't it?
i've not heard of zinc being used as a catalyst in other reactions so i'm tempted to beleive it would not significantly affect the
H2O2. the only metals i know to catalyse its decomposition are copper, brass (i beleive due to the copper content not the zinc)
and MnO2.
<img src="http://www.h2o2.com/intro/properties/pic10a.gif" alt="" />

thought this may be of some use.

<small>[ March 16, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

Anthony March 17th, 2002, 11:47 AM

Well at $0.80/qrt I'm not surprised you don't care about losses, I day about quadruple that for 6%, so double for the same
amount of actual H2O2. My peroxide reactions live in a small fridge.

vulture March 18th, 2002, 03:23 PM

Concentrated peroxide has a ozone smell. This is due to the fact that singular oxygen evolves from the solution. This is very
reactive and tends to form ozone with atmospheric oxygen.

NoltaiR March 19th, 2002, 01:23 AM

I didn't think of that.. ozone is exactly what it smells like.

vulture March 19th, 2002, 01:40 PM

Would it be possible to concentrate H2O2 in the same way you concentrate HNO3, that is vacuum destillation?

The decomposition of H2O2 is auto-oxidized by radicals:

HOOH -> H + OOH or HOOH -> 2OH-
So stabilizing could be done with a pH buffer which absorbs the OH- and H+.

Other ways of preparing H2O2:

1.bariumperoxide + H2SO4
2. Electrolysis of peroxodisulfuric acid or ammoniumperoxodisulfate
this yields up to 35%-45%.
3. Here you can buy stain removing salt, which is sodiumpercarbonate.
When dissolved in water it yields H2O2. Usually it's mixed with something else, but if you can separate it you should get fairly
concentrated H2O2.

mr.evil March 25th, 2002, 08:40 AM

i know you can make H2O2 yourself, by adding some diluted H2SO4 to Barium(or other heavy metal peroxides), there will
settle down a salt and the H2O2 stays in the solution.(look above, Vulture has said this to)

i have heard that you can make H2O2 up to 45% with this method, has anyone tried this?


<small>[ March 25, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]</small>

Sparky March 25th, 2002, 11:20 PM

As fate should have it Skylighter happens to be selling barium peroxide for a limited time. It can't be shipped though so you
have to go pick it up or go to a conventionto pick it up :( . Would it be easier/possible to create barium peroxide from other
barium salts and maybe H2O2 instead?

<small>[ May 05, 2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Sparky ]</small>

NoltaiR March 26th, 2002, 12:17 AM

I am not sure what the trick is for those of you guys who claim to make AP with 3%. Normally I boil it but I decided to give it a
try. the ratio was 1.9L of 3% H2O2:350mL acetone:30mL 94% H2SO4.. its already been 24 hours and no precipitate can be
even seen.

Energy84 March 26th, 2002, 02:18 AM

I'm no expert when it comes to AP as I've only made it once, but I did it with 3% H202, and 32% HCl. I don't remember
offhand what the ratios were but it must have sat for 3 days before anything appeared. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]"
src="frown.gif" />

kingspaz March 26th, 2002, 07:01 PM

sparky, you can't make it from other barium salts because the acid of the salt will form:
Ba(NO3)2 + H2SO4 ---> BaSO4 + 2HNO3 (barium nitrate + sulhpuric acid ---> barium sulphate and nitric acid)
shit, brain freeze whats the formula for barium peroxide?...hmmm....
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BaO2 + H2SO4 ---> BaSO4 + H2O2 :D ...looks like it is BaO2.

mr.evil March 27th, 2002, 10:54 AM

well i suggest you make some BaO2 yourself,
By adding some Bariumsalts to a NaOH solution. i've never tried this method, so i will expiriment a little, seems nice, making
45% H2O2 by adding some H2SO4 to BaO2 :) really cheap source!


ThaFreak March 28th, 2002, 06:15 AM

I can buy my H2O2 at 30% and it's really cheap.5$ for 600ml!
And It's true that when using a high concentration of H2O2, there wil form much larger chirstals then when using low
concentrated H2O2.

Jager April 28th, 2002, 07:17 PM

Found it at <a href="http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/FAQs/FAQ.html" target="_blank">http://webhome.idirect.com/

Can I concentrate H2O2 myself by Boiling it?

Yes! But don't do it! Three main reasons are:

(A) It is very dangerous! H2O2 fumes are very unhealthy to breathe, plus if the vapor concentration is high enough the vapor
can act like an explosive. Finally the oxidation ability of H2O2 vapors could cause fires to start.

(B) As the temperature rises the rate of decomposing increases exponentially, at the same time releasing heat. At some point
especially if there are any contaminates in the H2O2 to aid decomposition there could be a thermal run-away reaction resulting
in an explosion or if milder you will get the H2O2 sprayed all over the place.

(C) Because H2O2 starts to decompose fast when heated you will lose a lot of the H2O2 to breakdown. You thus just turned a
lot of your expensive H2O2 into water just because you decided to boil it.

Can I concentrate H2O2 myself by simple distilling?

No, not really. The problem is that the vapor pressure of water is generally 10 times greater than that of the H2O2, thus you
end up distilling water not H2O2, the H2O2 is left behind in the evaporator. However, as pointed out in the boiling section
above if you raise the temperature of a H2O2 solution you start decompose the H2O2, turning it into water. Simple distilling
will tend to waste a lot of the H2O2 contents.

Can I concentrate the H2O2 myself by vacuum distilling out the water?
Yes, the first thing to realize is that vacuum distilling lowers the boiling point. Thus the evaporator can be operated down at 30
to 40 degrees Celsius and thus you get to remove the water without decomposing the H2O2 from thermal breakdown. I did
find that maintaining a vacuum for a long time to be very difficult but not impossible. Second, any contaminates in the
solution will be left there. This could make the H2O2 very dangerous if the wrong contaminates were there in the first place.

Can I purify the concentrated H2O2 myself by vacuum distilling out the H2O2?
Yes, as before you can lower the boiling point under a vacuum. Notice that H2O2 have a far higher boiling point than water so
you need a harder vacuum which is more work. But it can be done. However, you now have hydrogen peroxide with no
stabilizers in it, this MUST be kept in a very clean container for safety reasons.

Can I concentrate H2O2 myself by freezing?

Yes, you can, but there are has limits on how much water/H2O2 that can be removed by simple freezing. The problem is that
at 62% H2O2/H2O solution the peroxide and water freeze together to form an H2O/H2O2 ice. Thus whether you are freezing a
water rich solution or a hydrogen peroxide rich solution the remaining liquid tends to become a 62% solution where both
substances blend and freeze together.

Can I concentrate H2O2 myself by freezing out the water?

Yes, you can, when H2O2 is a small percentage of the solution i.e. less than 40%, the ice that forms is mainly water, so that
the percentage of H2O2 left in solution steadily increases as more ice forms. However, some of the H2O2 freezes in the ice
also, so there is a loss that gets worse as the percentage of H2O2 approaches 62%. This is a useful and easy way to
concentrate very weak H2O2 solutions however. Notice will this process really tends to leave any contaminates in the solution.

Can I concentrate H2O2 myself by freezing out the H2O2?

Yes, you can, but there are has limits on how much H2O2 can be removed by simple freezing. If you start with a 90% or
higher H2O2/H2O solution the ice that forms is almost pure H2O2, however the same limits still apply. As you freeze more
and more of the H2O2 the percentage of water in solution climbs, and so does the amount of water that freezes in the ice.
Again, the freezing will balance at 62%.

Celtick April 28th, 2002, 07:22 PM

Hey ThaFreak:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial,
Helvetica">I can buy my H2O2 at 30% and it's really cheap.5$ for 600ml!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verda na, Arial, Helvetica">Contact me; I live in Hoogvliet so that s a round
the corner! Since I only can get 3 or maybe 6% H2O2 maybe we can make a deal?

inferno May 24th, 2002, 10:21 AM

KNO3 + NaOH ==> KO2 + NaNO3 + H2
(s) (aq) (s) (s) (g)
(not balanced)


KO2 + H2SO4 ==> H2O2 + KSO4

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Thats possible. But how would u separate the KO2 from the NaNO3? IIRC potassium superoxide is orange, i guess that would
help a bit.

This would be a very cheap source of H2O2. Just use a nitrate + sodium hydroxide (drain opener, sold as DRANO or much
cheaper just as sodium hydroxide in supermarkets) then add the metal peroxide to sulfuric...and does it yield around 40%?

andreas May 24th, 2002, 11:38 AM

how would you let this react in a solution.
K2O + H2O --> K+ + 2OH-
I don't know how you are going to make this work?

vulture May 24th, 2002, 12:26 PM

That reaction will just yield KOH and NaNO3! KO2 is an endothermical compound, you can't just make it that simple. You have
to heat metallic potassium in pure oxygen to get KO2.

Polverone May 24th, 2002, 05:43 PM

Actually, won't that reaction yield "nothing new?" I mean, with ions zipping around in solution there may be an equilibrium with
some KOH/NaNO3 present, but for the most part you're going to have what you started with - KNO3 and NaOH, since K is more

BaO2 can be formed simply by heating barium hydroxide or oxide to a few hundred degrees C in open air. The trouble is
getting the barium hydroxide/oxide in the first place. Barium is chemically similar to calcium, and you can obtain BaO from
BaCO3 simply by heating the carbonate in open air (just like with calcium carbonate). But the temperature required is very
high. Or you can react BaCO3 with HCl to obtain BaCl2. The BaCl2 is soluble and could be electrolyzed in a cell with a semi-
permeable membrane to obtain Ba(OH)2. Or you could react the BaCl2 with KOH to obtain KCl and Ba(OH)2. The barium
hydroxide isn't as soluble as KCl, so it shouldn't be too difficult to separate.

Unfortunately, I cannot recall how hot barium hydroxide must be heated before it becomes oxide. It may be that you're back
to the first problem of creating really high temperatures.

Or - the *really* roundabout way - electrolyze a molten barium salt to obtain the metal, burn the metal in air to obtain the
oxide. This is hazardous and indirect but the barium itself could also be fun. This shouldn't be as difficult as obtaining sodium
or potassium since barium is dense enough to sink below its molten salts, protecting it from oxygen.

All my routes start from BaCO3 since it is easily and cheaply obtained as a pottery glaze material.

andreas May 25th, 2002, 05:03 AM

Yes I think you're right it wouldn't yeild nothing new

vulture May 31st, 2002, 04:51 PM

Wondering: would ozone oxidize water to hydrogen peroxide?

kingspaz May 31st, 2002, 05:49 PM

hmmm....it may not do it alone but is its decomposition was catalyised in some way then i don't see why it wouldn't work.
O3 --catalyst of some sort---> O2 + O'
O' + H2O ---> H2O2
O' = oxygen radical.
dunno what causes its breakdown into O2 and a radical. UV light does but that also decomposes H2O2. doesn't ozone
decompose by itself anyways?

vulture June 2nd, 2002, 03:22 PM

Well, ozone seems to be soluble in water, so no reaction to H2O2 i'm afraid.

The formation and decomposition of ozone is dependant of the wavelenght, one wavelenght will create it, the other will
decompose it.

Ozone has a somewhat small decay time, but one can store it for 83h in 20N NaOH solution.

The idea about the oxygen radical could work though. I think it's a bit tricky cause you've got to end up with O2 with a charge
of 2-, meaning oxygen has oxydation state -1 here. Seems pretty tricky to me.

kingspaz June 2nd, 2002, 05:44 PM

vulture, i'm confused as to what you are saying.
the 3rd oxygen atom is dative bonded to the lone a lone pair on the O2 molecule so upon decompostion you end up with an
oxygen molecule and an oxygen atom with 2 unpaired electrons. the radical would then attack the water forming H2O2...i
think...in the O2 molceule oxidation state is 0 and on the radical its also 0.
i think the problem with this idea is finding the wavelength that will decompose O3 but not H2O2.

vulture June 3rd, 2002, 12:55 PM

I meant the oxidation state of O2 in H2O2. It's the only compound where oxygen has a -1 oxidation state.

Zambosan June 3rd, 2002, 02:44 PM

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Vulture, just a sanity check (on my part): this is the only compound where oxygen has a -1 ionization state. Why wouldn't this
be the case in other peroxides?

vulture June 3rd, 2002, 03:11 PM

I was getting ahead of myself there...
In redox calculations, you have to assume oxygen has an oxidation state of -1, which you'll see if you try the sum of the
oxidation states.
I don't know if this is also the case in other peroxides, especially where carbon atoms are involved. I would have to figure this
out with structural drawings and accounting polarisation.

What I was trying to point out is that simply adding another oxygen molecule doesn't always creates a peroxide.
One could easily assume that PbO2 is a peroxide because BaO2 is.
This is false however, because it does not contain a -O-O- bond but
O=Pb=O. See where I'm getting at?

spydamonkee July 27th, 2002, 01:30 AM

i recently aquired some 50% H202 from a "friend" and he says its really old so might not be as pure as it was before.

does this stuff decompose or something in long storage or will my batch still be near 50%?

kingspaz July 27th, 2002, 09:05 AM

yes H2O2 does decompose gradually in storage. if it hasn't been exposed to direct light or high temperatures very often then
it should be reasonably ok. unless its more than 10yrs old or anything.

FlaAlchemist June 18th, 2003, 02:22 AM

Pure conc H2O2 is made in the laboratory via the barium peroxide route.;)

phoenix945 March 31st, 2004, 08:09 PM

Would it be possible to store H2O2 frozen in a freezer and it would not decompose as quickly?

Boomer April 1st, 2004, 07:27 AM

It would surely slow down decomposition, like with fuming nitric etc.

But actually freezing it needs below -50 C for a 50% solution. This is why I do not believe some noobs claiming to concentrate
3% to ten times+ the concentration by freezing out the water.

On the other hand, the near 100% stuff freezes near zero again. The curve looks like a deep valley.

Harpoon April 1st, 2004, 04:00 PM

Copper oxide acts as a weak catalyst for the decomposition of H2O2. Silver also catalyses the decomposition, and was used in
rockets. All the other catalysts I can think of have already been mentioned.

The data book I was looking at said that H2O2 boils at 50 oC and freezes at 0 oC

Evaporating the H2O2 and then condensing it to acquire a higher concentration of H2O2 would allow it to be frozen and then
separated from the water.

Marvin April 1st, 2004, 09:17 PM

Boomer, Harpoon,

The data you are discussing is at the top of the page!

30% peroxide freezes at -25C, given you lose some peroxide in the frozen water its quite possible you could reduce volume to
1/10th in a deep freeze.


H2O2 boils at about 150C, not 50C. You can concentrate by gentle boiling but decomposition tends to prevent you getting to
higher than about 40% at atmospheric pressure. A Eutectic occurs in the solid phase between 50 and 60%, so getting higher
than this is not feasable by freezing, even if the temperatures can be reached. Leaving 40% in a vacuum dessicator over
sulphuric acid can concentrate indefintly 90%+, though loss of H2O2 is probably sizable.

Mendeleev April 3rd, 2004, 01:02 AM

One way of purifying hydrogen peroxide, I have not seen mentioned on this thread, is sparging. Sparging is bubbling warm air
through a solution, causing the liquid with the lower boiling point to evaporate first. Its basically just like boiling off water, but
safer. I am not sure how high you can concentrate hydrogen peroxide with this method.

Cyclo_Knight April 3rd, 2004, 03:38 AM

Just so you know...Buying pre-concentrated 30% H2O2 is much cheaper than concentrating 3%.

Any well stocked pool supply store sells 27% H2O2 as a "Shock Treatment and Oxidizer". I bought a freakin GALLON of it for
only US$20.00 under the brand name "Baquacil".
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Unless you live under the sea, chances are that many people in your country own pools. Just grab the YellowPages, or an
equivelant and start calling all the pool stores in your area. After the fourth call, I found a supplier only 15 minutes away.

400 ml of 3% runs me $1, and considering that much is lost in heating, I saved shitloads of money. I estimate that
concentrating the same amount would cost me TRIPLE what I paid for Baquacil. A gallon of 27% H2O2 for 23 bucks including
gas? I'll take it!!

SimplisticNick December 14th, 2004, 09:25 PM

Tomorrow I plan on going to the local pool shops.
My experiment of the moment is as follows;
My air cleaner produces ozone as it cleans the air (a lot, the company claims). I'm taking apart and making it into an airtight
seal in which i can bubble O3 through 3% H2O2. Hopefully, the concentration will rise.

FUTI December 15th, 2004, 04:44 PM

the "freezing method" is very interesting...at least to me...this is the first time I ever find someone mentioned it. Can you
point this blind samurai where to look?:) A book, name of the author, anything will be usefull but proven sources have the
slight advantage over kewl links. Thanks.

I'm aware of the fact that freezing some water solution you can obtain separation (at least partial) of components. Examples
are freezing of sea water which makes ice with less salt then original solution and remaining solution has higher salt
concentration, or methane water clathrate forming as solid residue in cold water under pressure. But the formation of eutectic
mixture mentioned here is interesting to me...let me guess it lay somewhere around 56% H2O2?

SimplisticNick December 15th, 2004, 09:54 PM

Well, no more need for concentration. I have found 35% conc. at my local pool store.
1 gallon for about, $13.89. Well worth it!
The freezing method does work extremely well, but I could not get the exact concentration of the H2O2, for my KMnO4 stock
is low. I let a full 900mL of 12% H2O2 (from beauty supply) freeze over night. In the morning, I cracked the ice open and
dripped out what didn't freeze (very conc. H2O2).

Marvin December 15th, 2004, 10:08 PM


Ozone destroys hydrogen peroxide.


Its a very common method in general chemistry, you are unlikley to find any instructions in a modern journal or book
specifically for hydrogen peroxide. Its mainly a mtter of interpreting phase diagrams. More than enough information is
referenced in the thread to give it a try.

megalomania February 7th, 2005, 02:16 AM

I have been reading up on the Shell Process of making hydrogen peroxide, which uses isopropyl alcohol and air. The alcohol is
oxidized to acetone and hydrogen peroxide. The process can also use methyl alcohol, making formaldehyde and peroxide. I
have not read the patents yet, except the first one. They are US 2479111, US 2871104, GB 708339, BE 1002295

The formation of formaldehyde is what grabbed my attention, although there seems to be some complexity using primary
alcohols since they do not do it industrially. Only secondary alcohols are used.

According to the first patent excess air and alcohol vapors are passed through a tube heated to around 400-450 C and quickly
condensed and passed into water. No catalyst, no exotic materials, no special labware. The reaction time is about 30 seconds,
so a long tube is required. With isopropyl alcohol you end up with a mixture of hydrogen peroxide, unreacted alcohol, acetone,
and water. The works are gently distilled under low pressure to get the alcohol, water, and acetone back which are recycled,
and hydrogen peroxide is eventually concentrated.

Supposedly the modern version incorporates between 1-3% hydrogen peroxide to kick start the reaction. Hydrogen peroxide is
the catalyst in the reaction, it is self catalyzing. Adding initial hydrogen peroxide improves the yield.

If I had to design a system to do this I would probably make a long pipe (36") from concrete or mortar by coating a dowel
rod. I would get a bit of duct work or sheet metal and make a simple box in which to cover the pipe with charcoal briquettes
(like a grill). I would affix a Y tube to the beginning of the tube and connect one side to a boiler and the other to an air
compressor. You can use either methyl, ethyl, or isopropyl alcohol diluted with as much water as you want. 75% right off the
shelf is about average. Add a bit of peroxide to the alcohol to help the reaction. A small air compressor blowing at low provides
the air in the other end of the Y fitting. The exit end of the tube can be bubbled directly into ice water.

Yields may vary, the patent says over 80%, but any unreacted alcohol can be recovered and used again. This method sounds
like a good way for making formaldehyde; a double bonus perhaps?

Mayhaps using this process for AP would not even require purification. Just add the acid of your choice to form AP, filter to
remove the crystals, and distill the alcohol from the remaining liquid. I wonder how economical this would be vs. buying
acetone and peroxide separately?

hereno February 7th, 2005, 09:13 AM

The process can also use methyl alcohol, making formaldehyde and peroxide.

Isn't that a bit dangerous? Formaldehyde and H2O2 react to form dimethylolperoxide, you really would not want to distill this
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mixture, check here for an attempt to isolate it:


I guess you could use this process to form HMTD and AP in situ :p

megalomania February 8th, 2005, 12:29 AM

Ahh, so maybe that's why they don't do this industrially with primary alcohols... The resulting aldehydes are just too easy to
oxidize further.

boilingleadbath May 13th, 2006, 03:14 AM

There doesn't seem to be very much H2O2 lost during boiling. Although the evidence is weak, my most recent synth of TCAP
indicates that less than 10% of the H2O2 is lost:

110 ml of 3% H2O2 where boiled down, vigorous boil, in an aluminum pot to ~10 ml. This was mixed with 15.0 ml acetone,
and 6 ml 31% HCl - 10% extra H2O2. Reaction was successfully preformed at low temperature and then allowed to react at
5*C for 19. hours, capped.

In an attempt - which now seems like a bad idea - to remove any excess H2O2, a small amount of MnO2 was added to the
product still in the reaction vessel, pre neutralization. A small amount of fizzing was observed, which I assume indicates an
excess of H2O2... although I'm suspicious of a reaction with the HCl [also], as the filter water was a reddish-brown color.

corrosive May 15th, 2006, 01:40 AM

Sorry to put anyone's shit down but theoretically concentrating H2O2 isn't neccesary, (as I've read). Primarily in peroxide
compounds the, reaction still happens you just have to wait a bit longer. Also I do not want to take this off of topic, but can
anyone tell me quickly if it is neccesary in peroxie compounds such as, hexamethylene triperoxide diamine, triacetone
triperoxide, and methyl ethyl ketone peroxide to have a more concentrated oxygen such as 6% minimum. I would just like to
know this for further "dreams". At the moment I have plenty of the 3% and I would like to have a personal reply if it is really
necessary. thanks.

It would'nt hurt to get "Shock Treatment and Oxidizer" for less liquid, so I can use smaller containers and use an ice-bath

Chris The Great May 15th, 2006, 08:35 PM

In theory. I've never had a decent yield at all with 3%, but with 35% I get so much AP is turns into a solid mass. I get far
more once it has been filtered and dried. It does make quite a difference in practice.

The equilibrium of the precursors tends to stick to the water soluble ones, and not go all the way to completetion, when you
have more water in the reaction mixture, at least with AP.

Chopper May 16th, 2006, 12:13 AM

In any event, the rate of reaction is not going to vary linearly with the conc of the H2O2.
The rate of reaction would have a relationship that is somewhat logarithmic in nature.

I.e at a reagent strength of 1/10, I would expect (though have never tried) that
the time needed for the reaction would increase 100 fold - and not just 10 fold.
Adding to this, of course, is the fact that the equilibrium point will be shifted somewhat.
How much? Once again research I've not carried out.

However, by the addition of a small amount i.e 1ml phosphoric (800gm/liter soln)
to 200ml of 3% peroxide, the loss due to decomposition may be vastly reduced.
This was my standard method until my phosphoric ran out. At this point I went
to get some Ph Down from a hydroponics shop, since my preffered brand of
rust-converter was unavailable.

It was here that I came across 500ml (600gm) of 50% H2O2 for $13. Considering
I'd been previously paying $3.50 for 200ml of 3%, It takes no einstein to work
out that the hydro-shop route is much, much cheaper and easier. I.e 300gm H2O2
for $13, as opposed to 24gm H2O2 for $16

Especially when you consider that they also supply 5L drums of 50% for around
$80. Which is still rather expensive!! (They probably pay around $30 for same)

akinrog May 16th, 2006, 05:37 AM

I really wonder something.
I saw recently an international marketing network called *mw*y is selling a bleaching product containing Sodium Percarbonate
(30 % - but it does not state whether or not the rate is in Weight or Volume).

Can it be used for something useful? I mean is it possible to extract hydrogen peroxide therefrom? Regards

nbk2000 May 16th, 2006, 08:07 PM

It's been discussed before, and the answer was 'Yes, but at far greater cost than 3% peroxide, so why bother?'.

Search for oxyclean or oxy-clean. Percarbonate might also work.

The_Duke May 17th, 2006, 01:10 AM

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Percarbonate might also work.

Having used Percarbonates as a source of H2O2 on several occasions I can assure you that Sodium Percarbonate will work as
it releases Hydrogen Peroxide and Sodium Carbonate when dissolved in water, the H2O2 will react with the Acetone and the
Sodium Carbonate will react with the mineral acid to form the respective salt.

nbk2000 May 17th, 2006, 03:23 AM

And the mineral acid, being the catalyst, is converted into useless salt by the carbonate formed by the decomposed

So then you're reaction is a competition between catalyst-reaction, and salt-formation.

Chopper May 19th, 2006, 07:09 AM

Of course the formation of salt would use some of your acid. In this case, it is a rather trivial task to calculate the amount
consumed in the formation of the salt, and simply add the corresponding amount extra.

Said salt would remain soluble and could simply be washed out with the rest of the liquid remaining after the reaction.

That is, of course, unless I'm missing something here particular to percarbonate.

NoltaiR May 22nd, 2006, 10:20 PM

Seriously guys. I am assuming that the only reason you want to "refine" your store-bought H2O2 is for use with AP. If not then
continue. But if you are just trying to make it stronger for AP production then just boil it!!! I really don't get why people try to
get so technical with the addition of other chemicals..

aikon May 24th, 2006, 02:26 AM

...But if you are just trying to make it stronger for AP production then just boil it!!! ...

I didn't check the whole site, so I can't say anything about it's quality but here's a link where a guy boils down 3% hdrogen
peroxide. Look in the "Scientific Crap" section.


nbk2000 May 24th, 2006, 05:24 AM

There's a name there from the deepest bowels of BFL...THErAPIST!

Holy shit...THErAPIST is buddies with the K3wL who owns that site. :rolleyes:

That explains the 'quality' information to be found there. :p

NoltaiR May 27th, 2006, 01:57 AM

I sincerely hope you are in no way referring to my reply as crap. This is the method I have used everytime I needed a
stronger H2O2. It has worked everytime and I have provided proof with photos in the past. Please do not try to demean/
disgrace me. I have been in the business for quite a while.

aikon May 27th, 2006, 03:04 AM


I agree with you, that boiling the H2O2 is the best way to concentrate it.
It's simple and you'll obtain a strength good enough for most applications.
NBK didn't say anything against your method, he has just a litte dejavu when he hears the name "THErAPIST". That's all. :)

nbk2000 May 27th, 2006, 04:16 AM

Aikon, I don't think he was referring to me, but rather you..."Scientific Crap" .

NoltaiR May 27th, 2006, 11:15 AM

I was referring to your reply Aikon.. you honestly think I would ever question NBKs replies.. ;)

aikon May 28th, 2006, 05:48 AM

I was referring to your reply Aikon.. you honestly think I would ever question NBKs replies.. ;)

A little misunderstanding.
You're right, never ever question the master himself. :D

kleptophobiac June 26th, 2006, 07:04 PM

Leslie's Pool and Spa, a pool supply chain in the US, carries gallon jugs of 27% hydrogen peroxide as a pool clarifier. Go to
your local pool supply place and look for any bottles sold in plastic bags (same technique when looking for H2SO4) One gallon
is $16. Some other pool places (they seem to be local, however) carry up to 35% for nearly the same price on a 100% basis.
You'll also find all the sodium hypochlorite you'll ever need at one of those places.
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Before I found the pool and spa place, I concentrated hydrogen peroxide from the 3% variety because I needed an etchant
for circuit boards. 3% was just too darn slow to be useful. I took a large corning baking dish and put it on high heat on the
oven. I could get up to about 20-22% with the method. I prefer the corning because it's about the most unreactive vessel
you'll find, isn't porous, and has a very large surface area.

The freezing method just sucked for me. The water would freeze into crystal shards and would become a slurry in the bottle. I
couldn't get much of the high(er) concentration H2O2 before a lot of the crystals melted, nullifying my efforts.

Of course, finding the 27% stuff basically made the effort a waste of time. It etches so fast the solution gets very hot, whereas
before I had to heat the solution to increase the speed of reaction. Fantastic!

Abnormalia July 7th, 2006, 03:50 PM

I would definitely vote for the vacuum pumped distillation as the best method (outside of the warm air bubble method, which I
am not familiar with). A vacuum pump will be the hardest part to find, maybe a science surplus store.

Placing the 3% H2O2 in a container for vacuum pumping (some kind of vacuum flask) and place that into a container of warm
water. During the vacuum process, the liquid will cool due to the vaporization of the water, which will lead to a slow evaporation
rate (again, the warm water helps to keep the flask at a neutral temperature and vaporization going).

This should work well, although I can't give you any concentrations to go on.

I was, at one time, interested in the H2O2 mono propellant rocket engines that NASA had experimented with.

The German's V2 rockets (to my knowledge) were fueled with "High test" H202. The H2O2 was pumped into the ignition
chamber, along with a concentrated solution of KMnO4, which immediatley ignited producing steam and oxygen (deisel was
added in later engines to take advantage of the extra oxygen generated). Anyways, just a little trivia - I don't suggest getting
the H2O2 near any KMnO4 is what I'm saying.

Good luck!

Bert July 13th, 2006, 11:19 AM

The V-2 was propelled by 3800 kg of alcohol (ethanol and water) fuel, and the oxidizer was 4900 kg of liquid oxygen. The fuel
and oxidizer pumps were steam turbines, and the steam was produced by concentrated hydrogen peroxide with potassium
permanganate catalyst.

from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V2_rocket

PlayDough October 29th, 2006, 12:36 AM

There is a method of concentrating H2O2 "well above 85%" which has not yet been mentioned in this thread, and I am
convinced it is the safest and the most feasible for the home experimenter.

I ran across this patent for the process of concentrating H2O2 without the need for freezing, distillation, reagents, or catalysts.
The patent is US7122166.

Basically, the dilute peroxide solution is passed along a water-permeable membrane made of a special material with a
hygroscopic gas such as air on the other side of the membrane to carry the water away. Happily, DuPont invented just such a
material they call Nafion which comes in an assortment of sizes and shapes of sheets and tubing.

I've been looking around for some Nafion tubing to build a little home version similar to the device described in the patent.
Basically it would work like a swamp cooler. Peroxide solution would be circulated from a reservoir through a "radiator"
fashioned from a network of Nafion tubing, then a fan would blow the water away in the form of humidified air.

I'm not sure exactly if pressure or a gas other than air will be needed to produce concentrations high enough to make rocket
fuel, but I hope to make concentrations of at least 85% as mentioned in the patent, with no degradation of the H2O2 from
heat or light.


Patent URLs expire, so post the number and country of orgin instead. NBK

wymanthescienceman November 9th, 2006, 03:01 AM

When I tried making AP with regular 3% peroxide from the store it just wasn't cutting it. I made it keeping the temp at about
5C and used HCl for acid. When I did it I used roughly 600-700ml of 3% peroxide and the correct ratios of Acetone/Acid but
after a week I couldn't see any more precipitation and my final dry yield was <1g. As I can only get 3% around here, I decided
to experiment.

SO failing my previous synthesis I tried concentrating my H2O2. I put 473ml (A 16oz bottle) in a temp controlled pan at
roughtly 80C and let it evaporate for a couple hours until it reached about 60ml. Using the same methods and about 40ml of
this concentrated H2O2 I was able to reach a yield of roughly 8-10g :eek: (I couldn't help but test it before it was completely
dry so I don't know final yield :D) within 12 hrs of precipitation. I will do more tests to see what exactly the yield would be from
a full bottle, but I'm guessing it will max at 12g. That is plenty for me, I don't use hardly any......yet :D .

I will come up with an exact method I use soon, noting temp at which it is evaporated, final volume of H2O2, length of
precipitation, yields of AP, ETC ETC, after I use up what I have now.

sparkchaser November 10th, 2006, 12:57 PM

I was thinking of using a dessicant in a sealed container, with H2O2 (3%) which is still in the original bottle sitting on top.
Dessicant would be calcium chloride. Can anybody think of a reason this wouldn't work at room temp.?
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Another thing I'm worried about is any reaction from possible H2O2 vapor that might make it out of the bottle. Any

Scratch that. Found my answer.

Yes, it would work because H2O2 is less volatile than H2O but don't ever pass its solution through the dry CaCl2 or MgSO4!!!
I hope you will dessicate it in a big closed vessel at ambiant temp (20C-35C) within what there will be another vessel
containing the dessicant!Don't forget to add some sulfuric acid in the H2O2 to stabilise it when higher in concentration.
Always remember that H2O2 and metalic ions are not good friends at all; CaCl2 and MgSO4 contains such ions!!!!They can
bring your batch to zero contain oxygen in very little time if brought into contact!!!!

Altroman November 14th, 2006, 06:02 PM

How about molecular sieve? That should be nearly pure silica gel, and as such should not catalyze the H2O2, yet should
remove at least some of the water. It can also be regenerated easily in a hot, dry oven.

sparkchaser November 15th, 2006, 07:04 AM

I thought silica gel contained a small amount of either aluminum or zinc oxide. Am I mistaken?

FUTI November 15th, 2006, 08:31 AM

Drying silica-gel isn't pure, it is often "spiced" with cobalt salts as water indicator. Molecular sieve isn't silica-gel AFAIK. H2O2
can be decomposed even by catalytic influence of ordinary dust particle surface last time I looked. Are you guys find some new
info I'm unaware of or just brainstorming?

crsk8andsno56 February 11th, 2007, 02:00 AM

I have heated my H2O2 fairly fast before and have gone from 473ml to about 47 ml so should be around the 30% range.

I heated this fast, the flame was on medium and there was quite a bit of fumes/steam. I used this for a synth and got pretty
go results with a yield higher than if i had used the 473 ml 3%.

I think I'm loosing some in the water or something I am not quite sure.

lemons April 7th, 2007, 05:07 AM

In addition to pool supply stores, a lot of health food stores and co-ops sell 35% H2O2. In addition to soaking veggies and
such with it, some health food types dilute it and drink it. I pay around $8 a quart locally.

This co-op sells 35%, in sizes up to 55 gallon drums:


panzerkampfwagen May 9th, 2007, 07:27 PM

Phosphorous Pentoxide could also be used as a dessicant, as long as you make sure that it is relatively pure. Purity is really
only an issue if you are using the phosphorous pentoxide produced by burning matches. I tried using burnt matches and
something in the match started boiling the water. It also appeared to be giving off gas, and not the kind that you would want
to breathe in, either.

Jabir ibn Hayyan August 7th, 2007, 04:42 PM

I am not absolutely certain if this will work, but it has always been of curiosity to me, and I hope it will provide some help for
all of you out there who want good old concentration without decomposition, so here it goes.

I believe the reason that your solution didnt work panzerkampfwagen is because matches contain absolutley 0% red
phosphorus, rather they contain a mixture of antimony(III) sulfide and potassium chlorate. Phosphorus Pentoxide can be
obtained by heating red Phosphorus from the STRIKING PADS of matches, until it decomposes. Notice that the striking surface
of a match box also contains powdered glass this must be extracted before you begin heating the phosphorus.

The result is such a powerful dehydrating agent that it can convert some mineral acids to their pure simple anhydrides. It has
been used numerous times in the past to concentrate sulfuric acid without decomposing the precious Sulfur Trioxide within.

This bit of information is directly from Wikipedia:

The desiccating power of P4O10 is strong enough to convert many mineral acids to their anhydrides. Examples: HNO3 is
converted to N2O5; H2SO4 is converted to SO3; HClO4 is converted to Cl2O7.

Hopefully phosphorus pentoxide can do the same for H2O2,and possibly help you guys with your concentration goals. The
Pentoxide can also be used to make very powerful sulfuric acid which can also help concentrate hydrogen peroxide. Thank you,
I hope this helps.

DONMAN September 1st, 2007, 02:33 AM

About the membrane idea... I have found OTC tubing perfect for such a task! Dialysis tubing is a water permeable membrane.
I am doing a test with it right now and its only been a day but, half of the original volume of H2O2 is already gone!! I just tied
both ends shut and hung it! Medical supply stores have this stuff and its super cheap!!!

nbk2000 September 1st, 2007, 06:45 AM

Is OCT a name-brand, or did you mean OTC (Over The Counter)?
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From what I've read, the membrane has good resistance to 30% peroxide, so that's excellent.

DONMAN September 2nd, 2007, 01:03 AM

lol sorry my bad, bit of a type-o there. So far I have had my 47~ ml in some tubing for about 2 days now. Only 1/3 of the
volume remains.

The only problem with the tubing is that when the membrane doesn't have liquid touching it, it becomes very brittle and can
break very easily. I went to feel my tubing and the top part supported and tied with a rubber band just broke. Fortunately,
There was no spill and I was able to retie it.


Yes, it can stand hydrogen peroxide up to 30%. Also It says it can handle being frozen so I wonder if freezing 3% in a bag
could be more effective for the freezing out method.

AWG September 9th, 2007, 01:17 AM

to make rocket fuel you need at least 90%. To this H2O2 you add a catylist(Silver is best). This then makes water(H2O) and
Oxygen(O). There is also alot of heat which turns the water to steam. This steam can be put through a nozzle and drive a
rocket. This technique was somethimes used in the V2 rockets. They also put kereose in the mixture which the steam ignites .

kelb October 20th, 2007, 11:56 PM

to make rocket fuel you need at least 90%. To this H2O2 you add a catylist(Silver is best). This then makes water(H2O) and
Oxygen(O). There is also alot of heat which turns the water to steam. This steam can be put through a nozzle and drive a
rocket. This technique was somethimes used in the V2 rockets. They also put kereose in the mixture which the steam ignites .

Humm thats interesting. How does steam with a theoretical maximum temperature of 100 deg C could ignite Kerosene (i'm
assuming a typo here on your part) with an autoignition point of 220 deg C? Also since there would be a large amount of water
vapor (aka steam) wouldn't that just put it back out? The V2 rocket propulsion system consisted of water alcohol mixture,
liquid oxygen, and hydrogen peroxide but no mention of Kerosene in any of my information.

So is there any final verdict on the best way to go from say 3% to 30% H202 concentrations, given that you can easily,
discretely, and cheaply obtain the 3%, and you don't possess a vacuum distiller? More importantly how the heck would you
measure it to know when you got more concentration? Should higher concentrations be stored in better containers, say glass
instead of plastic?

megalomania October 21st, 2007, 12:51 AM

If you get something hot enough it will burn, including water believe it or not. A water leak into a vat of molten steel will
decompose into hydrogen and oxygen over 1000-1200 C, and it will explode with a force equal to TNT on a 1:1 ratio of the
mass of water to TNT...

Water does not have a "theoretical maximum temperature" as you describe it, except for its decomposition temperature I just
mentioned. Apply enough heat energy to water and its vapor can be heated far beyond what you seem to be confusing as the
boiling point at the standard state. Steam under pressure, as one might expect in a rocket nozzle will allow water to be heated
far above 100 C. It would not even require all that much pressure to reach 220 C. Engineering tables on the pressure-
temperature relationship in boilers can be found via google.

There is no cheap, simple, and easy means of concentrating hydrogen peroxide without some kind of equipment. If there was,
industry would use it. You can concentrate it a bit with staggering losses using minimal equipment, or you can actually get
yourself some real glassware. The investment is well worth it.

As for storing hydrogen peroxide, what do you mean by higher concentrations? How how exactly depends on the material of
choice. I can't recall from memory what materials are used for concentrations above 40%, but I know plastic is used at this,
and all lower, concentrations.

Here is an interesting experiment to try concentrating hydrogen peroxide... Ideally you would want some NAFION tubing, but I
gather it is somewhat expensive (about $150 a meter, but I am not positive on that, I will need to track down a better
supplier), so dialysis tubing is certainly cheaper.

We are going to build a device rather like a condenser. A coil of tubing is immersed in a container, like a bucket, of hydrogen
peroxide. Don't coil the tube tightly, but allow it to be completely wetted by liquid. Have both ends of the tube sticking out of
the liquid, or better still stick a length of plastic or glass into the tubing to keep the ends wetted. Using a low pressure air
pump, like a fish aerator or cheapo tire pump, blow a constant stream of air through the tubing. Air goes in, wet air comes out.

As the water permeates the tubing the interior becomes filled with moist air. The wet air is continually exhausted allowing more
water to permeate through the membrane. The bucket of peroxide steadily becomes more concentrated over time.

I know NAFION will only let water through, but I can't vouch for how well dialysis tubing might work, or how long it will last in
constant contact with highly concentrated peroxide. I also can't specify how high the concentration can get, but NAFION should
be capable of producing 85% peroxide. How many days that takes depends on how much tubing (surface area of membrane)
you use, how much peroxide you have, and what the starting concentration is.

Alexires October 23rd, 2007, 02:00 AM

Mega - Would it be possible to use the same idea of concentrating H2O2 using NAFION to concentrate HNO3?

If so, I wouldn't mind blowing $150 on a metre of NAFION to be able to concentrate things like that.
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Also, it might be possible to use dialysis tubing or NAFION to separate NaClO3 or KClO3 as it forms in a chlorate cell, as I
understand that dialysis tubing lets salts through as well as water.

Charles Owlen Picket October 23rd, 2007, 10:21 AM

If your are willing to spend $150 then you can get yourself a nice little 1L distillation rig and concentrate HNO3 to your heart's
content! -{google Ace Glass}-

nbk2000 October 23rd, 2007, 09:39 PM

A $30 distillation flask with a telfon-tape wrapped stopper would be more than adequate.

Use a homemade condenser that'll cost you less than $10, and you're all set. :)

megalomania October 27th, 2007, 10:39 PM

Technically a distillation could be unsafe if the concentration of hydrogen peroxide gets to high levels and the glassware is not
excessively clean. The presence of heat also leads to decomposition, and increases the risk. Using something like NAFION
requires no energy (or very little if you blow air through it), and can be done at low temperatures.

NAFION is certainly harder to get and more expensive compared to glassware. According to the one website I found that sold
NAFION tubing, they are the only company licensed to make NAFION tubing. Once the patent protection runs out, and other
companies start cranking out NAFION products, the price of the stuff will plummet. I fully expect the prices to be 1/10th or
even 1/100th of what they are now over the next several years.

One does not need a meter of tubing either. With all the fuel cells out there using NAFION membranes, these are easier to
get. A divided cell with a NAFION membrane in the middle only a few square inches would be far less than any glassware setup
and could continually concentrate hydrogen peroxide. Your yields would be very low per day, but if you have time this would be
an excellent maintenance free concentrator.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > Other peroxides.

Log in
View Full Version : Other peroxides.

FadeToBlackened April 9th, 2001, 07:04 PM

What besides methenamine (hexamine, whatever), acetone, and ether can form peroxides? Alcohols maybe? Anyone know?

John456 April 9th, 2001, 09:59 PM

Ether, alchohols i think, formaldahyde

CragHack April 9th, 2001, 11:10 PM

if you evaporate organic liqueds completely you will usually get a VERY VERY unstable peroxide left over that will more than
likely explode on contact. that is why you always leave small amounts of organic liqueds unevaporated. (the info here was
from megalomania)


HMTD Factory April 10th, 2001, 12:33 AM

Plenty of organic peroxide around, just not all of them are explosives.

Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, for example, is

not an explosive.

PHILOU Zrealone April 10th, 2001, 05:39 AM

Virtually all peroxydes are explosives when dry and concentrate!!!!!
H2O2, peracetic acid, performic acid ( a very performing one http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif chemist
joke!), diethylether peroxyde, diisopropyl ether peroxyde, methyl-ethylether peroxyde, dimethylacetal peroxyde,...,
perbenzoic acid, ....Nearly a full library of chemical names are listed in accidents reports from peroxydated distillation residue
exploding, polymerisation catalyst (often peroxydes),...
Make a little search!

"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

HMTD Factory April 10th, 2001, 06:40 PM

So you mean "methyl ethyl ketone peroxide" is
an explosive? heheh...

FadeToBlackened April 10th, 2001, 06:50 PM

We use MEK peroxide in shop class as an activator for polyester resins. When our teacher mentioned methy ethyl ketone
peroxide i immediately started thinking 'ketone peroxides eh? hehehe'.

zaibatsu April 10th, 2001, 10:00 PM

I hear (in the KIPE or something of the seies) that MEKP is an explosive, used as a catalyst in resins and stuff like that. It
says it is similar to AP, and all you do is pour it out (its in solution) and let the liquid evaporate. I have also seen Benzoyl
peroxide as a hardener in wood filler - any info?

Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)

FadeToBlackened April 10th, 2001, 10:12 PM

I seem to remember seeing something about that while looking through the archives or something.. try searching for it im
pretty sure theres something about it.

HMTD Factory April 11th, 2001, 04:49 PM

I wonder MEKPeroxide is an explosive. It didn't go off when I torched it with a blue flame lamp.

FadeToBlackened April 11th, 2001, 06:26 PM

It didn't do anything?.. I have some pdfs that refer to it as explosive... odd..

HMTD Factory April 12th, 2001, 12:33 AM

It did catch on fire though, with black smoke.
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PHILOU Zrealone April 12th, 2001, 04:46 AM

Come on guys, MEKP has been discussed zillions times!
Less sensitive and powerful than AP but still an explosive!
I doubt it to burn making black fumes since the methylethylketon doesn't burn that way and that when peroxylated...you have
some more oxygen; usually black fumes comes from benzenic, acetylenic, ethylenic polymers (polystyrene,

"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

HMTD Factory April 13th, 2001, 03:05 AM

I got pure MEKPeroxide, it burns with black smoke. Anyway not all peroxides are explosives. If the compound cannot sustain a
reaction by itself then it would not explode.

Phil, I think your generalization is too much. Personally, I avoid words like "all", "always", "impossible".

PHILOU Zrealone April 13th, 2001, 08:09 AM

Very wise advice HMTD that's the reason why I used "VIRUALLY all" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif ! You
definitely need a certain amount of reactive Oxygen in the peroxyde in a way to make it explode but this can be low as in
benzoyl peroxyde C6H6-CO-O-O-CO-C6H6 (this one for sure burns/detonates leaving black fumes).
I stil find stange that it burns with black fumes since butanone doesn't do it... some impurities or an additive in it maybe?
For sure the ethyl group stabilise a little the cyclic form but not enough to avoid detonation when confined!

"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

fightclub April 13th, 2001, 03:33 PM

Hey HMTD, MEKP is an explosive. Does nitroglycerin explode when you take a flame to a small drop? No it burns. Yet, it is very

Your MEKP is most probably solubilized in solvents like Dimethyl phthalate which makes the solution much less explosive/
easily explosible.

When you talk about MEKP, I assume the one you are talking about is the dimolecular (just like the acetone peroxides methyl
ethyl ketone peroxide has dimer).

Dimolecular (C4H8O2)2 is the most common and used commercially in solutions (liquid hardeners). It is a Colorless pleasent-
smelling oil, which can only be distilled in the presence of water in a vacuum. D.(15C) 1.042. unsoluble in water, soluble in
alcohol, ether, benzene. The mixture with water boils under 88mmHg pressure at 48C, and at 130mmHg at 56C. The oil
explodes when heated over 100C or on
contact with concentrated Sulfuric acid.

So if your "MEKP" is pure it will be an oil and explode on contact with conc. H2SO4 (or when heated >100C!!!

CodeMason October 27th, 2001, 08:04 AM

These chemicals will form explosive peroxides (in alphabetical order). Acetal, Acetaldehyde diethyl acetal, 2-Acetyl furan,
Anethole, Anisaldehyde, Anisole, 2-(2-Butoxyethoxy)ethyl, 2-Butoxyethyl acetate, iso-Butyl ether, n-Butyl ether, n-Butyl
glycidyl ether, Cellosolve, Cumene, Cyclohexene, Cyclopentadiene, Cyclopentene, Decahydronaphthalene, Decalin, Di-allyl
ether, Di-iso-amyl ether, Dibenzyl ether, Di-n-butyl ether, Dicyclopentadiene, 1,1-Diethoxyethane, Diethylacetal, Diethylene
glycol dimethyl ether, Diethyl ether, Diglyme, Dihydropyran, 1,2-Dimethoxyethane, Dimethoxymethane, 1,4-Dioxan, Diphenyl
ether, Di-iso-propyl ether, Di-n-propyl ether, Ether, Ethyl cellosolve, Ethylene glycol dimethyl ether, Ethylene glycol ethyl ether
acetate, Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether, Ethylene glycol monoethyl ether, Ethylene glycol monomethyl ether, Ethyl ether, 2-
Ethoxyethanol, 2-Ethoxyethyl acetate, Ethyl vinyl ether, Furan, Glycidyl n-butyl ether, Glyme, Isoamyl ether, Isobutyl ether,
Isopentyl ether, Isopropyl alcohol, Isopropyl ether, Isopropyl benzene, 2-Methoxyethanol, Methylal, Methyl cellosolve, Methyl
iso-butyl ketone, Methyl vinyl ketone, Propan-2-ol, Styrene, Tetrahydrofuran, Tetralin, Vinyl acetate, Vinyl pyridine, plus many
more. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net

The Great Milenko April 9th, 2002, 08:11 AM

There seems to be a lot of disagreement as to wether or not mekp is infact and explosive, or atleast it may seem that way,
but if it is,
would there be a way to extract the mekp from the hardener stuff?
I just bought some, and I was going to just evaporate it like the improvised primary explosives manual says, but now I'm
somewhat disapointed that it seems I just wasted $6 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Anthony April 9th, 2002, 08:37 AM

Completely off topic, but amazing none the less:)

<fascinating thing>

Take a look at the start date of this topic - 9th April - exactly one year ago!

</fascinating thing>
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Pu239 Stuchtiger April 9th, 2002, 09:15 AM

Liquid MEKP can be detonated.

The Great Milenko April 10th, 2002, 05:14 AM

Really?! Cool, would it have to be detonated with a cap? Because I doubt they'd just sell a pre-packadged explosive that only
needs to be set off with a spark. My apologies also Anthony for being off topic, I just could'nt make any sence of wether or not
it was indeed true that you could evaporate mekp solution and be left with an AP like substance.

<small>[ April 10, 2002, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: The Great Milenko ]</small>

Pu239 Stuchtiger April 10th, 2002, 04:57 PM

I think I should clarify. I was not saying that solid MEKP solution can be detonated; I was saying that 100% liquid MEKP can be
detonated. Liquid MEKP can be prepared by a reaction similar to the formation of acetone peroxide, except methyl ethyl
ketone is used instead of acetone. Temperatures for preparing the liquid isomer should be around 20C. If you can get
temperatures down quite low (I have found that around -10C to -20C is about the range needed for high yields), you can
prepare a high yield of the solid isomer. Solid MEKP dissolves in liquid MEKP. Liquid MEKP is a very powerful solvent. I would
recommend preparing a dynamite when using liquid MEKP, such as an ammonium nitrate / MEKP mix. That will boost power,
because MEKP is very oxygen-negative. A KNO3 / liquid MEKP mix will explode on contact with a fuse; pure liquid MEKP will just
burn very quickly. A while back I ignited 4mL of liquid MEKP with a fuse; a towering 15 foot pillar of orange flame erupted
skyward, and was gone within 0.25 seconds.

0EZ0 April 11th, 2002, 09:56 AM

From what i have read, 'MEKAP' is the crystalline explosive very much similiar to Acetone Peroxide chemically and in synthesis.

Originally from "Improvised Primary Explosives" by Dirk Goldmann:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial,

Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone Peroxide

Synonyms: none

I've never found exact characteristics in chemistry books so i can't tell you the exact formula or detonation velocity.
But it has the same power and velocity as Acetone Peroxide.
They are chemically related substances.
Work with 1 gram for a very strong cap.

Here's something for European readers:

I've often seen in drug stores a hardener containing 33% by weight MEKP. The cost is about $2 for 200ml. It's a syrupy liquid,
the liquid is allowed to stand for a few days at room temperature.
The white powder remaining is MEKP and should be handled like Acetone Peroxide.


Methylethylketone (also known as 2-Butanon)
Hydrogen Peroxide (30%)
Sulfuric acid (30%) or Hydrochloric Acid (30%)

Glass beaker or plastic film cannister (PE)
Filter paper
(Heat source)


1)Cool the ingrediants down to approx. 0-10 Degrees Celsius

2)Mix 6ml of the MEK to 10ml of the H2O2

3)Add slowly 0.5ml of the HCl or H2SO4 to the mixture. Let sit overnight.

4)If no MEKAP precipitates, heat the mixture in a water bath at 40 Degrees Celsius for 2 hours

5)Handle MEKAP like Acetone Peroxide

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I recently bought 500ml of MEK at the hardware
store for $AU6.50. It was sold as PVC Primer fluid. I hope to attempt making MEKAP soon.

Hope this helps :)

Pu239 Stuchtiger April 11th, 2002, 08:48 PM

I assure you that your end product will (most likely) be liquid, since solid MEKP dissolves in liquid MEKP, and because at more
"normal" temperatures like what you mentioned will produce more of the liquid form than the solid form. If you want the solid
form, either use very low temperatures, or let the MEKP sit for a *long* time and wait for the liquid form to evaporate off. I
consider the liquid form to be more valuble; there is no point in preparing the solid form (acetone peroxide is cheaper, easier
to acquire the precursors for, and more powerful than solid MEKP).
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BleedingLips April 12th, 2002, 05:13 AM
Ever heard of ascaridole?
I was browsing The Merck Index and found this interesting naturally-occuring peroxide...

<img src="http://www.chem.ualberta.ca/~vederas/Resource%20Folder/MT00_161_IIIC1.gif" alt="" />

(this was the only online pic of the molecule that I could find)

Here is some info on the plant oil that contains a significant amount of it:

American Worm seed oil (Chenopodium ambrosioides), known as Chenopodium oil, is colourless or yellowish, when freshly
distilled, becoming deeper yellow and even brownish by use. It has a peculiar, penetrating, somewhat camphoraceous odour
(the peculiar odour of the plant), and a pungent, bitter taste.

The yield of oil from the crushed fruits is 0.6 to 1.0 per cent.

Its chief constituent is Ascaridole, to the high percentage of 60 to 70 per cent, an unstable substance, allied to cineal, readily
decomposed on heating, with the production of a hydrocarbon. It also contains p-cymene, a-perpinene, probably dihydro-p-
cymene and possibly sylvestrene. Betzine and choline have also been reported.

I don't have The Merck Index right now, but if you have it, it'll be an interesting read... type it up and have a look (and please
post it for the forum members to have a look :) )

I heard that the oil is illegal in many countries because of its instability <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /

<small>[ April 12, 2002, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: BleedingLips ]</small>

Rhadon April 12th, 2002, 06:48 AM

Okay, why not. This is an excerpt from "Rmpp", a chemistry lexicon.

On oil of chenopodium
Essential oil gained from chenopodium abrosioides, formerly used against worm parasites in animals and humans. Today
obsolete because of its side effects. Oil of chenopodium contains mainly ascaridole (60 - 75%), ascaridole glycol, p-cymole
(20 - 30%), alpha-terpinene and limonene.

On ascaridole
Ascaridole is a monoterpene peroxide. Density: 1.01. Melting point: 3 C. Boiling point: 113 - 114 C (@ 2.6 kPa). Racemic.
Solves very well in organic solvents, almost insoluble in water. Since it is an endoperoxide [that means that it is cyclic] it is
unstable and decomposes when heated over 130 C. If it is treated with acids, it decomposes explosively.

Since this is your second post I must praise the effort to find something new. Though, I doubt that this peroxide is as useful
as HMTD, for example:
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Since the yield from the fruit is very low, it should be quite expensive.
</font></li> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">It has a low oxygen balance.</font></li> <font size="2"
face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Yet, if it is a 'powerful' explosive, then they won't sell it OTC, will they?
</font></li><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Since I have plenty of time right now, I could try to make a
peroxide out of 2-undecanone. It will also have a low oxygen balance, nevertheless I'll probably try it out.
In any case, 2-undecanone is an interesting compound since it can be used as a repellent against cats :)

<small>[ April 12, 2002, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]</small>

The Great Milenko April 12th, 2002, 12:22 PM

Well would 40% mekp solution be able to be detonated Pu239 Stuchtiger?

vulture April 12th, 2002, 01:13 PM

I think ascaridole won't explode because the peroxide bond isn't the only bond which keeps the molecule together. In AP and
HMTD the molecule is kept together ONLY by peroxide bonds, which are very weak and decompose easily.-

Rhadon April 12th, 2002, 01:32 PM

Vulture, I think you're basically right. But I'm sure that it'll explode when exposed to acids, the lexicon I found this in is a
trustworthy source.

BleedingLips, did you find the ascaridole in connection with explosives?

vulture April 13th, 2002, 05:23 PM

I'm sure it's a trustworthy source, i have the Rmmp compact in german, it's awesome!
It also says explosive decomposition in contact with acids, would be a nice option for a binary initiated explosive!

Pu239 Stuchtiger April 14th, 2002, 05:09 PM

"Well would 40% mekp solution be able to be detonated Pu239 Stuchtiger?"

What's the solvent?

The Great Milenko April 16th, 2002, 01:11 AM

Dimethyl phthalate.
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A_W April 16th, 2002, 05:26 PM

Some years ago I bought a small bottle of MEKP by curiosity only. It is a slightly yellowish, syrupy liquid (like conc. H2SO4) in
a small plastic bottle with two safety signs on it (it were theese that caught my interest): CORROSSIVE and OXIDER. The bottle
had a long warning text on it. In case someone is interested, I will try my best translating it from Norwegian to English :) :
"Contains: Methylethylketoneperoxide......25-50%
Flammable when in contact with combustible materials. Dangerous if swallowed. Explosive hazard if heated in a confined
space. Keep container closed and stored at a cool area. Store separated from reduction agents, accelerators, metal
compounds, acids and bases. In case of eye contact; flush with large quantitys of water. Use proper protective clothes, safety
gloves and safety goggles/face shield. If swallowed; do not induce vomiting; get medical aid immediadetly and show this
I haven`t found any uses for this until I read this post.
"Pu239 Stuchtiger" had a VERY interresting idea of mixing it with ammoniumnitrate :D . Will this be stable/safe/sensitive? (PS:
ONLY ammoniumnitrate/MEKP)

Pu239 Stuchtiger April 16th, 2002, 09:51 PM

The Great Milenko: I doubt that could be detonated. It certainly could combust in a vacuum though.

A_W: Liquid MEKP / ammonium nitrate would probably be sensitive, because the liquid MEKP isn't going to dissolve the
ammonium nitrate to any degree. If you could use a non-polar oxidizer instead of ammonium nitrate, then I would
recommend using that.

Just a general warning: liquid MEKP is VERY painful to get on your skin. I got about a drop of it on my finger; my finger quickly
turned bright red, the liquid MEKP was absorbed into my skin, and my finger began to hurt like shit; more painful than
concentrated sulfuric acid. The interesting part was that the pain and redness subsided after a few minutes, leaving no visible

kingspaz April 17th, 2002, 05:56 PM

could the MEKP be decomposed by enzymes inside body cells, like skin?

xoo1246 April 17th, 2002, 07:54 PM

Maybe the MEKP does reduce your cells. :p

A_W April 21st, 2002, 08:14 AM

I`ve just poured a small amount of 25-50% MEKP on a glass plate to see if the solvent will evaporate, leaving white crystals
left. I haven`t noticed any crystals yet, but I will leave it over night.
fightclub- Is MEKP supposed to have a pleasant smell?? I got quite a shock when I opened the bottle. <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> When the fumes reached my face, was sure that I had opened a bottle of nitric acid. It
smelled exactly like HNO3.

DBSP April 21st, 2002, 09:03 AM

Where did you get the MEKP A_W?

A_W April 21st, 2002, 09:12 AM

I got the MEKP at a small, but quite well equipped paint store. I have also seen it at hardware stores. The conc. was 25-50%,
and cost me approx. 40-60 nkr (I can`t remember exactly, it was 2 years ago).

xoo1246 April 21st, 2002, 09:16 AM

DBSP: It's easiely found where you buy plastic cement.

DBSP April 21st, 2002, 04:47 PM

You mean like plastic padding. Excactly what product/brand?

xoo1246 April 21st, 2002, 07:47 PM

Yes, curant to plastic padding, I have some at home, if I remember it I will take a picture of the tube and post it tomorrow.

xoo1246 April 22nd, 2002, 02:47 PM

Ok, it's tomorrow and here are the pictures of the tube containin 50% butyloperoxide, not MEKP as I thought.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/01.jpg</a>

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/02.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/02.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/03.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/03.jpg</a>

DBSP April 23rd, 2002, 05:51 AM

Funny I have a tube of hardener that loks just the way your does, shure it's not mine? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />

vonK April 23rd, 2002, 06:40 AM

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You could try a boat building place for MEKP.
Here in NZ they use loads of the shit, as well as MEK and acetone.
And they do sell to the public.

Pu239 Stuchtiger April 23rd, 2002, 04:51 PM

On the subject of liquid MEKP's oxidizing power: I soaked a dead, brown maple leaf with liquid MEKP: it soon became
translucent white.

A_W April 23rd, 2002, 05:20 PM

Like H2O2, MEKP probably also has a bleaching effect, wich caused the leaf to turn white.

Today I went to my lokal paintshop just to have a look. Next to some other chemical bottles, I saw some small plastic bottles,
saying "Reducant" on the label. It also said on the lable: contains MEKP 25-50%! I am not really a "Megalomania" on
chemistry, but I know that a reducant is the opposite of an oxider.
I`m pretty sure that a peroxide is an oxider. Can someone explain why it said reducant?
(PS: Sorry if "reducant" is not the proper english word, but you know what I mean.)

vulture April 24th, 2002, 10:07 AM

Organic peroxides can act as a reducer and oxidizer in the same time.
First comes the oxidizing effect, as the peroxide bonds break and release oxygen. After that, you are left with a hydrocarbon
which can react with the oxygen it has just released.

Strange though, peroxides should normally be labeled as oxidizers...

A_W April 24th, 2002, 10:16 AM

I didn`t notice what safetysigns it had on it. It could have been an "oxider" sign. It was the product itself that was called
reducer. What are theese chemicals (reducants) used for in the industry? As it was found in a paint store, it was probably to be
used in the home or something.

rikkitikkitavi April 24th, 2002, 10:17 AM

I think that it was just a stupid name , having nothing to to with oxidizers or reductants.

Peroxides serve as radical initiators in epoxi and similar compounds.

they are genereally powerful oxidants since they easily decompose and release at first single atom oxygen (radical)

This oxygen can react with the rest of the molecule (reductant, like vulture wrote) since peroxides genereally decompose
exothermically, the heat released initiation oxidation.
Since single atom oxygen is such a strong radical it often takes deeeeeep freezing to stabilize peroxides.


Demolition April 24th, 2002, 10:43 AM

Ive only ever seen 20% MEKP in a 20 ml bottle used for fiberglass hardening IIRC.
However you can purchase 500ml's of MEK for around $6 dollars Australian in DIY stores.Its used for priming PVC pipe and its
red in colour.

0EZ0 April 24th, 2002, 09:55 PM

Demolition, what you have described is what i have. MEK PVC Primer Fluid. 1000ml/L of MEK. The red colour is a dye put in
probably to help with visibility, as normal MEK is a clear liquid like acetone.
It burns with an orangey yellow colour and no black carbon is released from it when it burns. It also seems to leave the red
dye behind as a residue.

Rhadon April 30th, 2002, 01:47 PM

I said that I wanted to try making a peroxide out of 2-undecanone. I didn't await an enhancement in comparance to AP or
HMTD, I just did it because I wanted to try it out. Here's my results:

I added a few drops of 2-undecanone to an excess of a well-cooled mixture of HCl and H2O2. Here we already get to the main
The melting point of 2-undecanone is 15 C which was above the temperature of my HCl / H2O2. It solidified immediately.
Thus the "border surface" (the area in which reactions are possible) between H2O2 and the alcanone is very small. This shows
to be some kind of dilemma: Low temperature and almost no peroxide being formed or higher temperature and a higher
possibility of the resulting peroxide detonating spontaneously. I chose the first way because the risk seemed to too high to
me: I expect methyl nonyl ketone peroxide (let's call this one MNKP) to be at least as unstable as AP, yet not as dangerous
(it's not likely to be powerful).
I allowed the resulting solid to dry. After ~3 hours most of the liquid was gone, the solid was still there. When I came back
~12 hours later, there was nothing left excecpt for the paper the crystals were on. It had some dark stains on it which could be
due to a spontaneous combustion, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the compound doesn't seem to be worth both the effort and the
money to give it another try.

EDIT: I should add that most of the unreacted 2-undecanone should have liquified again after 3 hours.

<small>[ April 30, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]</small>

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Am m onium Chloride

Log in
View Full Version : Ammonium Chloride

FadeToBlackened March 16th, 2001, 07:01 PM

I read in the HTH + Naptha that amm onium hydroxide + CaClO will give a white cloud - nbk says amm onium chloride m a y b e .
How would I get this stuff as a solution or a solid?

Digital-Demon March 17th, 2001, 08:01 AM

from forum archives

T o m a k e a m m o n i u m c h l o r i d e , b u y a m m onium sulfate fertilizer( it com es about 95% pure) and buy calcium chloride from
tractor tire places where its used to fill tires with concentrated liquid as antifreeze. both are cheap.
M i x t h e m in the balanced ratio to cause am monium chloride and calcium sulfate.

The calcium sulfate is almost zero soluble so it ought precipitate out rapidly, leaving am m onium chloride in solution.

2Ca Cl2 + (NH4)2 SO4= 2NH4 Cl+ 2Ca SO4

2x164 132 2x 53 2x 136 wts

328 ozs chloride of lim e with 132 ozs of am m o n i u m s u l f a t e a n d g e t 1 0 6 o z s o f a m m o n i u m c h l o r i d e i n s o l u t i o n a n d 2 7 2 o z s o f

chalk precipitated.

Posted originally by Fart

megalomania August 18th, 2001, 11:03 AM

A far easier is to m i x h o u s e h o l d a m m onia with hardware store hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid, used for cleaning pools). Add a
s m a ll am ount of acid to a large container of the amm onia, the acid is far m o r e c o n c e n t r a t e d , a n d s o l e s s i s n e e d e d . Add the
acid carefully and slowly, with stirring. It will form white vapors that form deposits on the container and the surrounding objects.
Som e cooling may be needed as the reaction can get quite hot if done too fast.

After the reaction is d one you will have a solution of the stuff in water. You can boil it down to precipitate the am m o n i u m
chloride crystals. If you add som e acetone to the boiled down solution you can push out the crystals without having to boil to
dryn ess. Am m onium chloride is insoluble in acetone, which in turn is solu ble with water.

For the m o s t c o m p r e h e n s i v e a n d i n f o r m ative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
C h e m Lab at http://surf.to/m e g a l o m a n i a

nbk2000 August 18th, 2001, 03:14 PM

But obviously bulk ag . chem icals are going to be m uch cheaper if you plan on m aking more than just a few ounces.

"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them "

Go here (http://m embers.nbci.com / a n g e l o _ 4 4 4 / d l o a d . h t m l) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com /nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > The m ost powerful explosive??

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View Full Version : The most powerful explosive??

Iaki June 26th, 2001, 08:18 PM

I h a v e r e a d i n m any places th at the astrolite is the worlds most powerfu l explosive, but I wonder if the powerful of an
explosive (assuming that it is comparing with a nother with the sam e m a s s , c o m p r e s s i o n . . . ) d e p e n d s m a i n l y i n t h e d e t o n a t i o n
velocity, because if its so, the detonation velocity of astrolite is 8600 m / s e c a n d f o r e x a m ple the HMX, 9100 m/sec, it should
be more powerful? If I am wrong, could anyone tell m e which is the m ost poweful explosive and its detonation velocity or
compared in power with TNT ??

Thanks a lot (I know it was a silly question but It was only curiosity) Thanks again

CyclonitePyro June 26th, 2001, 08:51 PM

If you are talking about heaving power than the the lower the VoD the better. The slower shockwave won't break up the rock,
dirt, and allow the explosive g a s s e s f o r m ed to escape, this gives the com p r e s s e d g a s s e s m ore tim e to stay high pressure thus
m oving more earth. I've heard that Nitroglycerine creates the largest volum e of gasses per weight than other explosives. If
your talking about shattering force than a higher det velocity is preferred.
I'm sure som e o f t h e o t h e r m e m bers can explain a little better.

Mick June 27th, 2001, 02:59 AM

to m y understanding the higher the VOD, the m ore it will shredd things

the lower the V O D , t h e s l o w e r t h e e x p a n d i n g g a s s e s m o v e , t h u s t h e e x p a n d i n g g a s p i c k s o b j e c t s u p a n d m oves them, rather

then cut thru them

ALENGOSVIG1 June 27th, 2001, 03:36 AM

since this isn t directly talking about any high explosive in specific i will move to m isc.

cutefix June 27th, 2001, 09:25 AM

H e l l o , g a n g , I s e e t h a t y o u a r e c o m paring explosive power with respect to TNT.There is a site that will give you a sim p l e i d e a :
http://www.xinvention s.com/m ain/pyro/info_explosives.htm

ANTI-SYSTEM June 28th, 2001, 01:51 AM

^ not an all to accurate referance. nitrostarch and PETN are alm o s t t h e s a m e.
I think not.

cutefix June 28th, 2001, 06:34 AM

I know it pal,it was shown in the heading that the author itself adm it it.That is not very important however;that sim ple
explosive inform ation will help our new m embers have an initial idea about the power of e xplosives ,its cha ractestics -which
will help incite their curiosity to learn m ore about the fascinating ,educational and practical aspects of explosive science.If
they dis cover som e d i s c r e p a n cies of inf orm a t i o n , t h e n t h a t s a healthy sign; it will bring confidence on them t o d i g d e e p e r i n t o
the subject a nd will help initiate them to critical thinking and intelligent discussion s which will benefit the forum .

Anthony June 28th, 2001, 07:06 PM

I think it'd be better to give newbies informatio n written by som e o n e w h o d o e s n ' t t h i n k l o w e x p l o s i v e s d e t o n a t e a n d t h a t
prim ary HE's are not sensitive to heat, friction and static! His definition of a HE is also questionable.

cutefix June 28th, 2001, 10:12 PM

W ell,you have a point there,again any dedicated enthusiast will always find a way to im prove his le a r n i n g , n o b o d y h a s t h e
m onopoly for knowledge,how you percieve any inform ation recieved is left to the descrimination of the reader.If you had any
suggestion why not give som e.I know that xinventions have their limitations but I have an open m ind and will not d isparage
competing forum , b e c a u s e t h a t ' s a n e x ercise of narrowm i n d e d n e s s .

ANTI-SYSTEM June 28th, 2001, 11:51 PM

cutefix, you sound so c l o s e t o t h e p a g e s r e a s o n i n g . a l m ost as if your andy him self. either that or you can find the good in
everythinghttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/wink.gif

Anthony June 29th, 2001, 12:19 AM

http://www.surf.to/m e g a l o m a n i a

In the explosives section.

There's VoD and other inform ation on every explosive listed and gives you a reliable and accurate synthesis to boot. I didn't
e v e n h a v e t o u s e m y g o o g l e f i n g e r t o f i n d t h a t o n e h t t p : / / t h e f o r u m .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif

Xinventions is in NO WAY a rival forum, maybe a rival to TO TSE, I only know it exists from p e o p l e p o s t i n g e x a m p l e s h e r e o f
the crap posted there .

There is no alterior m otive behind m e pointing out the flaws on the page linked to. The in formation m ay not be especially
dangerous to a newbie but giving them incorrect inform a t i o n o n t h e b a s i c f u n d e m e n t a l s o f e x p l o s i v e s i s g o i n g o t l e a d t o
c o n f u s i o n a n d p o s s i b l y m istakes in the future.
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cutefix June 30th, 2001, 01:40 AM

Tony, I appreciate your concern about extraneous inform a t i o n p r e s e n t e d t h a t m a y b e m isconstrued as m isleading.I was
presenting the m ost concise tabulated inform a t i o n s o a s t o m a k e them grasp the gist of what our new m e m b e r s a r e d i s c u s s i n g
then.Som ehow I was not aware of the fact that xinventions are not so concerned compared to virtualave in presenting their
information.Yet I still stick with what I think tha t a dedicated learner can separate the chaff from the grain. But, the dabbler
within this forum will swallow every inform ation that will lead to their dem ise(loss of interest in learning due to gullibility and
confusion)).That will certainly weed out the undesirables in us.Rem e m b e r :
T h e r e i s n o R o y a l R o a d t o Knowledge .
This is what I like with The Forum.Wha t m a k e s u s s a f e a n d r e l i a ble is the dedication that you and other m o d e r a t o r s h a v e d o n e
to install checks and balances resulting that our media have con tents that is worth its weight in gold!
I salute you fellows!
Anti-system nothing in this wo rld could be labeled as good or ba d.It is re lative to the observer.If that person has some
wisdom ,he can find value in the m ost rotten thing.Rem e m ber, this is what inventors are m a d e o f ; " p e r c i e v e t h e b e a u t y o u t o f
ugliness,create fertility out of barreness,and make use of it."

[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited June 30, 2001).]

Anthony July 1st, 2001, 09:17 PM

Fair enough. I m ust admit that the table did present the data nicely and makes comparison easy, but I was worried that
s o m e o n e m ight not be able to sort the grain from the chaff as you said and take it as bib lical (I suppose being linked from
here does give the site a certain status concerning quality). Also that a newbie m i g h t e x p l o r e t h e r e s t o f t h e s i t e a n d t a k e t h e
information on it without the pinch of salt required.

I don't want to get into an arg u e m e n t o v e r s o m ething so silly so I'll say no morehttp://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/

Mr Cool July 2nd, 2001, 06:02 PM

A way of com paring briscancies:
m a x . V o D * m a x . V o D * m a x . d ensity

Energy released per gram p e r s e c o n d o f a n y e x p l o s i v e c a n e a s i l y b e w o r k e d o u t u s i n g t h e e q u a t i o n s , b o n d e n e r g i e s , d e n s i t i e s

and VoD's.

hairyjoe August 16th, 2001, 02:06 AM

to find the energy released, wouldnt you just find the re a t i o n o f t h e e x p l o s i o n , s u ch as CH4 + 2O2 -> C O2 + 2H2O a n d t h e n
find the diffe rence be tween the enthalpy of the products and the enthalpy of the reactants, and the result would be the energy
released. from this you could use stochiometric calculations to find whate ver you wanted.

[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y h a i r y j o e ( e d i t e d A u g ust 16, 2001).]

cutefix August 16th, 2001, 05:23 AM

N o w a d a y s , t h e s t a n d a rd explosive for com p a r i s o n a g a i n st m o r e p o w e r f u l o n e s i s HMX or cyclotetra m ethylenetrinitra m i n e . T h a t s
why HNI W , T N G U e t c a r e c o m p a r e d a g a i n s t i t

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Small Blasting
Machine from Will

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Anthony July 2nd, 2001, 07:54 PM

Will emailed a htm file and some gif's of an electric rocket launcher which would work equally as well as a small blasting machine for initiating explosive charges (2 maybe 3
charges in parrallel could be fired simultaneously without stressing the components).


Will also says that the drop wire can be shunted for safety (against static, and [I think] ground/stray currents) by slipping a shorted 3.5mm female jack onto the male plug.

PYRO500 July 2nd, 2001, 10:15 PM

I have a blasting machine I built with 12 3300 UF caps at 40 V so the total is 80V at 19800 witch is powered by a bridge rectifyer and a magneto genorator and gives one hell
of a loud spark and turns stranded wire to green balls of molten copper. I have yet to upload it and add it to my page. I will post when I do, but the picks are pretty crappy
and small beacuse they are from a usb cam

frostfire July 3rd, 2001, 05:29 PM

a R/C power panel can easily suit every blasting project

EventHorizon October 19th, 2001, 04:55 PM

Just thought I'd ressurect another old post instead of making a new topic.

I hope to have pics to put on the forum of my new blasting machine. Specs include, self powered @ 14.4V/1.8Ah, 30KF caps, keylock w/ "on" led, test circuit, and chargeing
jack all in a 7"x5"x3" box. Later circuitry will include an A/B selector. "A" being instantaneous and "B" being timed with 12 different times being able to be selected. I'm
planning on using a 555IC to trip a 10A relay, but I just don't know about the 555 for this application. I'm sure its been discussed here so I'll search it later. In the meantime,
anyone else have some proven ideas in their boxes or pics, please upload.

"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

Donutty October 19th, 2001, 07:52 PM

I'm lucky enough to have an ex-British army Shrike DC Exploder (http://www.ribbands.co.uk/prdpages/shrike.htm)

Trouble is - I have no charger for it! I have a battery but nothing to charge it! Does anyone have any ideas??

On the subject of improvised blasting machines - I once made one from the flash board of an old camera, but it stopped working so I never persued it any more.

-- Just found that the original charger is 24v --

...AAGH! It Burns!...

[This message has been edited by Donutty (edited October 19, 2001).]

EventHorizon October 19th, 2001, 08:53 PM

I think a simple charger can be made for NiCd batteries. Just a DC current ~500-800mA and 1V above the packs rating if I'm not mistaken. Then charge for the correct time.
(i.e. pack rating/charge current=time to charge). I've never done it as I own a Maha-777Plus.

"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

Energy84 November 2nd, 2001, 12:07 AM

Could somebody please post shematic diagrams along with pics on how to build these things please? I'm very interested since I'm taking an electronics course at school and
have access to LOTS of parts http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?

EventHorizon November 2nd, 2001, 12:59 AM

The charger or the det box?

I've just completed (well, almost) my improved box. Pics to be forthcoming.

"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Drying am monium nitrate, dessicator

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EventHorizon A ugus t 7t h, 2001, 07: 57 PM

I had a quick question. Which would be the best way to dry amm onium nitrate. In a dessicator over CaCl2, or saturating in
ethyl/methyl alcohol then drying in a d essicator. Will the CaCl2 remove the water from the AN. My vacuum will only generate
25"(125 torr I think). I've don e it on a heat source after saturating in denatured alcohol, but would rather not.

Thanks all.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > Re: The list

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hairyjoe August 10th, 2001, 02:27 AM

I just wanted to know what "the list" was that the government has, and if i would get on it for ordering sulfuric acid over the
internet (i can't buy it anywhere locally). Also, what are some good concentrations/prices for the stuff.

megalomania August 10th, 2001, 04:10 AM

"The List" is what is commonly referred to as the collection of names brought to the attention of the DEA or BATF by suspicious
chemical orders. By law every chemical seller is required to keep a copy of who buys what. They are required to immediatly
submit to the DEA the names of individuals who buy certain combinations of chemicals, or whenever asked. There is a large
list of chemicals that can get you put on The List. I had posted what these chemicals were on the old forum, it was a reprint
from a post made at The Hive.
The List is usually trouble for druggies. It is hoped that so many chemicals will be listed that its effectiveness will be mitigated.

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

hairyjoe August 12th, 2001, 01:53 AM

so what happens if i get on the list? I'm guessing that ordering something like HNO3, ammonium nitrate, or hexamine will get
me put on "the list", but im wondering if it even matters. I'm not planning to blow anything or anybody up, im just using them
recreationally, so does being on the list have any detrimental effects unless i get caught trying to blow someone/something
up? i want to order some stuff off the internet 'cause i cant get any pure fertilizers or nitric acid, but i also dont wanna get put
on the list.

p.s. are any of you guys on here chemistry majors in college, or have majored in chemistry? i was just wondering if it affords
the opportunity to get your hands on hard-to-come-by chemicals

hairyjoe August 12th, 2001, 01:54 AM

sorry megalo about starting that new thread. im the dumbass FNG

Lagen August 12th, 2001, 01:22 PM

Hairyjoe, I cannot tell you exactly "what happens", I am not from the USA and my judgment on the environment there is
mediated. There has been an acticle on related issues some time ago, at The Hive, which is down. I won't be "bad Lagen" this
time so I am including the full text of that article further into this post. I will provide some info here on how it works in my
country, as I am more familiar with that. The following is my translation of a post from a Czech explosives forum, so please
excuse possible awkward language...

The tendencies over the past several years have shown a rather reasonable trend to adopt European legislation in the area of
controlling and monitoring the flow of certain chemicals. This necessity is a logical consequence of the quite real threat that
people would start manufacturing nuclear weapons in their homes. It has been proven that pervitine (a methamphetamine
manufactured locally from ephedrine on a large scale) is increasingly saturating the Western markets and that certain hard
drugs from Western Europe on the other hand penetrate the Czech territory more and more seriously.

From the practices of terrorist groups like IRA (Semtex) and more notably Ohm-shin-reekyo (sarin) it became obvious to most
governments that counteraction was necessary. This gave birth to the philosophy of "precursors", i.e. substances that can be
used in the manufacture of explosives, chemical weapons and drugs. This philosophy has arrived to the Czech Republic as a
result of extended contacts with Interpol, which has even trained numerous Czech chemists working for the former
Czechoslovak criminal police. They have been instructed on the various common procedures of drug manufacture and the
"fingerprint" scheme used to investigate which lab, chemist and process was involved in the production of a particular drug.

In certain developed countries there is already a common practice requiring that chemical dealers sell materials designated as
"precursors" to renowned chemical businesses only and still every transaction is reported to criminal police. The police records
the transaction in their database and as soon as the computer finds it likely that a certain individual has accumulated the
necessary makings for some goody, the policemen will go to see him and check his good health. Individual countries still
differ in their legislation regarding precursors, but many common solvents and, for obvious reasons, acetylation agents are
always listed.

Even final products showing biological activity which lend them the character of drugs are freely associated with the precursor
lists. This is a difficult area to cover by any legislation, since a taxative listing of substances sets any law enforcement agency
well back behind dealers with the so called "designer drugs", who update their range constantly with newly designed products
showing the desired activity while still unknown to the police. Individual countries adopt different attitudes to the problem. In
the Czech Republic this area is covered by the Bill on the International Control Regime. ...


... The simplest criterion to tell if a particular substance can be sold freely, is determined by the so called "Lists of additional
codes of the Harmonized customs List of Numeric Nomenclatures". Every chemical can be more or less precisely assigned to a
certain item in the international list used to classificate all trade items upon crossing country boundaries. The additional codes
determine whether the substance can be handled freely or under restrictions. The restricted substances and mixtures thereof
are subject to trade licenses, quotas, registration, inspections and a drastic tightening of the regulations for waste disposal.
The Numeric Nomenclatues are specified in the version of the List of Additional Codes published in the legislation journal
("Sbirka zakonu" in Czech) valid to the date. Fortunately there is professional software available, accredited at the respective
ministries and customs offices, which can assist in classification of a certain product with respect to the cathegories set forth in
the valid legislation or a Regulation related to the Customs Bill, valid to the date.
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The law enforcement recognizes the following cathegories of controlled substances: exceptionally toxic substances, narcotics,
psychotropes, precursors and accessory substances, other poisons and carcinogens, hazardous materials, nuclear material,
radioactive material, pharmaceuticals and hazardous waste. It should be noted that among the items which are subject to
licensing for crossing the border are such "common" substances as sulfuric and hydrochloric acids, potassium permanganate,
benzene, toluene, chloroform, carbon tet, methyl iodide, ether, acetone or acetic anhydride. The controlled substances and
products and admixtures containing them, are registered upon manufacture or import, and during trading or using them
proper evidence must be maintained. An increasing emphasis is being put on waste disposal documentation. It is beneficial
that the GLP/GMP guidelines, the requirements of ISO9000+ and ISO14000+ require documentation of both inputs and
outputs. What an uninvolved observer may consider as bureaucratic fuss, is usually a bare requirement of the law, which sets
forth the allowed manner of manipulation and use of a particular substance and what documentation must be associated with
the manipulation. Chemists, who wish to preserve their former "privilege" to handle certain controversial substances, must
obey these rules too. This is the only way to temporarily suppress certain political pressures (initiated by chemical laymans) to
completely ban certain substances, as mentioned earlier in this post (well, snipped).

The recent developments prove that the law enforcement is aware of the difficulty of defining the terms from this area.
Therefore the government cooperates with experts from universities, the Academy of Sciences and the Czech Chemical Society
for consulting and commenting on future legislation so that it fullfills its purpose and at the same time avoids banning
chemicals per se. ...</BLOCKQUOTE>

So, I am pretty sure that the "recording in the database" thing and centralised checking of the combinations is in effect here.
A list of suspect persons surely exists too and is cross-checked against the precursor list. Over here you can get on the list not
only by purchasing something, but also through suspicious activity on the Internet. (Also please read my piece on this in
\misc\cro3.) So, I am constantly asking myself about every possible "suspicious" combination (like oleum, nitric acid, toluene)
the same question - which substance have I purchased with the provision of personal data? Can I purchase this or that and
showing my ID without it forming a suspicious combination with something I got three years ago? It is slowly driving me
paranoid and I guess the only way to counter this will be writing some SW equivalent to the pigs' one.

Another thing you must watch out for here besides combinations are controlled substances of which the possession alone is a
serious offense. If you, for example, get a substance like potassium dichromate, or sodium azide from a chem supplier by
deception ("I know Mike, he usually orders for our company, you surely know him, now we have a deadline for this experiment
on Monday, could you deliver it to my home address instead?") and if they sell it to you, the police WILL knock on your door.
At least the supplier will want to cover their own ass after they realize what happened. This IS true: A few years ago, one chem
supplier company disappeared after I ordered sodium azide (a big quantity) from them. After a LONG time I got a strange
mail from them saying like "Hold on, we're still processing your order, but we need you to reconfirm it in writing..." I believe
the pigs sent that. I didn't respond and nothing happened. I was real stupid until that time, and needless to say, this
experience scared the shit out of me. Maybe in a few years I will get charged or something. I was lucky, because I didn't get
the stuff, and they will have a hard time trying to prove I wanted to do something illegal with it. But should the police have
been more clever and "sold" it to me in the first place... You must also refrain from publicly saying anything about any such
substance that would link you to it.

Here's the Hive article:<BIG><BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Buying Chemicals, Glassware and Lab Equipment
By Igor

This first part won't be of any use to the non-Americans, but there are
probably enough American bees out there to keep it from being a waste of
time. I hope that a lot of people can benefit from the "how to buy" parts
in the second half of this message, no matter what their nationality. On
with the show!



The US federal regulations relating to the purchase of chemicals and laboratory

equipment/glassware are not difficult to find, but more than a bit ambiguous
when you do find them. I've been surfing the web for a few days now, and have
found many interesting things. Some of you probably know this stuff. Others
probably don't. For those that don't, here's my compilation:

First, let's look at what the DOJ means by List I and List II chemicals.
This is in 21USC Sec. 802. That's the US Code, and you can search and read it
yourself at http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html. (http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html)


From the US Code, current as of 1998:

(33) The term ``listed chemical'' means any list I chemical or any list II

(34) The term ``list I chemical'' means a chemical specified by regulation

of the Attorney General as a chemical that is used in manufacturing a controlled
substance in violation of this subchapter and is important to the manufacture of
the controlled substances, and such term includes (until otherwise specified by
regulation of the Attorney General, as considered appropriate by the Attorney
General or upon petition to the Attorney General by any person) the following:

(A) Anthranilic acid, its esters, and its salts.

(B) Benzyl cyanide.
(C) Ephedrine, its salts, optical isomers, and salts of optical isomers.
(D) Ergonovine and its salts.
(E) Ergotamine and its salts.
(F) N-Acetylanthranilic acid, its esters, and its salts.
(G) Norpseudoephedrine, its salts, optical isomers, and salts of optical
(H) Phenylacetic acid, its esters, and its salts.
(I) Phenylpropanolamine, its salts, optical isomers, and salts of
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optical isomers.
(J) Piperidine and its salts.
(K) Pseudoephedrine, its salts, optical isomers, and salts of optical
(L) 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone.
(M) Methylamine.
(N) Ethylamine.
(O) Propionic anhydride.
(P) Isosafrole.
(Q) Safrole.
(R) Piperonal.
(S) N-Methylephedrine.
(T) N-methylpseudoephedrine.
(U) Hydriodic acid.
(V) Benzaldehyde.
(W) Nitroethane.
(X) Any salt, optical isomer, or salt of an optical isomer of the
chemicals listed in subparagraphs (M) through (U) of this paragraph.

(35) The term ``list II chemical'' means a chemical (other than a list I
chemical) specified by regulation of the Attorney General as a chemical that is
used in manufacturing a controlled substance in violation of this subchapter,
and such term includes (until otherwise specified by regulation of the Attorney
General, as considered appropriate by the Attorney General or upon petition to
the Attorney General by any person) the following chemicals:

(A) Acetic anhydride.

(B) Acetone.
(C) Benzyl chloride.
(D) Ethyl ether.
(E) Repealed. Pub. L. 101-647, title XXIII, Sec. 2301(b),
Nov. 29, 1990, 104 Stat. 4858.
(F) Potassium permanganate.
(G) 2-Butanone (or Methyl Ethyl Ketone).
(H) Toluene.
(I) Iodine.
(J) Hydrochloric gas.


(back to igor)

That's it for the definitions of what constitutes a List I or a List II

chemical. Analysis of further information follows.

- Wholesalers/retailers are required to obtain a DEA permit if they are going to

be selling any listed chemicals. The DEA is, not surprisingly, particularly
uptight about primarily mail order businesses. In order to get a permit a
business owner must fill out an application for a DEA permit specifically
listing the controlled chemicals he or she wishes to sell. This application is
sent to the main DEA office for processing, and if it is pre approved then a DEA
agent will visit the owner/company to review the application, evaluating the
personality, facilities, professionalism and abilities of the owner/company, and
advising the owner/company about potential hazards and problems with selling the
listed chemicals. After all this, the DEA still has to approve you; it doesn't
mean that you're going to magically get a permit.

- A company should never apply to sell listed chemicals that do not directly
relate to their stated business; they can, but the DEA will look long and hard
before approving it. The fewer listed chemicals you want to sell, the better off
you are. Also, there are more than a few stupid people who apply for permits
just so they can buy ephedrine (or whatever) to divert for personal use. Very,
very, very bad idea. A DEA agent on the West Coast told a friend that this is
not uncommon, and that the DEA will see right through you. It's one of the
things they're looking for when they do their little pre approval interview.

- They seem to focus heavily on PPA, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine in their

regulation of precursors. This means that they care a lot about methamphetamine
(perhaps because it's cheap to make and so immensely popular in this country),
but don't seem to be quite as tuned in to the manufacture of other amphetamines
MESCALINE OR 2C-B!! They will, and they'll probably send a dozen jackbooted and
heavily armed thugs to harass you while the guys in protective suits are walking
around bagging your hexamine and two gallons of sassafras oil (what the FUCK
were you thinking when you bought that, anyway?) All I'm saying is that I think
you're safer if you don't try buying any of the List I or II chemicals,
ESPECIALLY ephedrine, pseudoephedrine and PPA. There are regulations regarding
the quantities that dictate when something should be reported. If you're small
scale then you probably won't hit these thresholds in a month anyway, even with
List I stuff, but don't push it. No sane person would sell List I's to you
anyway, and they would quite reasonably be very careful about List II stuff.

- Distributors are REQUIRED BY LAW to report any suspicious activity or

purchases. The government has no specific regulations on exactly what
constitutes "suspicious," but the DEA suggests the following as a starting
point. From the DEA's DMCA FAQ at
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/diverson/divreg/divchhp.htm: (http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/)

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"The reporting of a suspicious order is required by the Controlled Substances
Act and is of primary importance to DEA in limiting the availability of listed
chemicals in the illicit traffic. Each regulated person is most familiar with
its customers and the circumstances surrounding the orders it processes. The
chemical industry must use its best judgment in identifying suspicious orders.
The following are provided in order to assist the industry in identifying
suspicious orders:

1. An individual who desires to pay cash and wants to pick up the chemical(s).
2. An established customer who deviates from previous orders or ordering methods.
3. A new customer or unfamiliar representative of an established customer who
orders listed chemicals.
4. A customer who has difficulty in pronouncing chemical names.
5. A customer who is vague about its firm's address, telephone number, and
reason for desiring a listed chemical.
6. A customer who wants a listed chemical shipped to a post office box or
address other than the usual business address.
7. A customer who prefers to pay by cashier's check, postal money order, etc.
8. A customer who will not furnish references or who is vague about furnishing
references for credit purposes.
9. A customer who desires listed chemicals for reasons at variance with
accepted legitimate industry practice.
10. A customer who is not a member of a trade, professional, or business
11. A customer who furnishes false or suspicious addresses, telephone numbers,
or references.
12. A customer who refuses or is reluctant to establish a credit account or
provide purchase order information.
13. A customer whose communication either by telephone, mail, or other means is
not conducted or prepared in a professional business manner.
14. A customer who requests unusual methods or routes of shipment or who
provides unusual shipping, labeling or packaging instructions.
15. A customer who purchases unusual quantities or combinations of chemicals or
glassware in contrast with customary practice and usage.
16. A customer whose stated use of listed chemicals is incompatible with
destination country's commercial activities or consignee's line of business.
17. A customer with little or no business background information available.
18. A customer using a freight forwarder as ultimate consignee.
19. The use of intermediate consignee(s) whose location or business is
incompatible with the purported end user's nature of business or location.
20. Evasive responses to any questions, or responses that indicate a lack of
basic knowledge of the industry, or inability to supply information on
whether listed chemicals are for domestic use or export.


As you can see, a lot of stuff can be suspicious. If you're going to buy stuff
from a distributor then don't be a stupid jerk. Meet these requirements so you
won't screw it up for the rest of the people ordering from them. For example, if
you shiftily ask for large quantities of acetamide, and want to pay cash, then a
smart source will report it. (If they don't, and if they OR you are caught, they
could face a sentence of up to 20 years in prison for what the DOJ perceives as
their recklessness.) So they report it, the DEA comes knocking on your door, and
then they might do an audit of the supplier because he was stupid enough to sell
it to you.

Or say you were smart enough to be professional and cooperative with the
chemical supplier, but the DEA busts up your lab and finds receipts (credit card
statement, purchase order, invoice, whatever) tying you back to that supplier.
Well, guess what? You might have just fucked several unwitting bees who were
smart enough to be inconspicuous to the business owner, but who are still on
file at that business as having purchased potentially suspicious chemicals.
Thanks a lot, dumbass. There will be a long line of angry bees waiting outside
your cell to hit you with a lead pipe once you're inside. And I hope that you
enjoy being brutally raped by psychopaths who are mildly bitter about facing a
lifetime incarceration.



Many of the chemical/glassware companies that sell to private individuals

realize that some (many?) of their customers are buying stuff for use in
clandestine drug manufacture. They probably don't want to report you. Don't give
them a reason to. In fact, try to make them think that it was insane of them to
ever suspect you in the first place. ("He was such a nice boy!")

Be courteous, knowledgeable and professional on the telephone. Burn your

receipts. Scrape labels off of chemical bottles and burn them, too. Dispose of
containers where no one will ever pay attention to them, like in a dumpster in
the city public use landfill. (But be environmentally conscious at the same
time.) Be smart about receiving chemicals. You know the drill. Don't fuck it up
for everyone else. This is not a joke. By being careless, you could
inadvertently send a bunch of people to jail, not the least of which being the
guy who owns the chemical supply business. See Dick Drug. See Dick Fuck Up. See
Dick Die at the hands of Bubba the Child Molester. Don't be a Dick.

What do I think about buying chemicals? The best advice I've found is by POPeye,
and it is archived at Rhodium's site:
http://www.lycaeum.org/~rhodium/chemistry/popeye.zwit.txt (http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/popeye.zwit.txt)
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I am totally, irrationally paranoid about being caught, and I usually proceed
accordingly. Here's the trade-off: provide as few clues as possible to your real
identity, but remain inconspicuous. For what it's worth, I might not have any
experience with the actual manufacture of drugs, but dammit, I have bought so
much stuff (some of it suspicious, and some of it from big time suppliers, too,
not just the companies that sell to individuals) that I have a good bit of
experience pulling off my purchases.

All you have to do is apply some common sense to what you're doing, and know
enough about your reputed subject to fool the average person taking and filling
the orders at a chemical supply company. Know how to pronounce a chemical before
you ask for it. Know correct pronunciations of words like "isomer", "carbonyl",
"claisen adapter" and "ketone." This shit comes up. Seriously.

Be able to spout off your SSN, driver's license number, street address, business
name/phone/address, birth date, etc., immediately upon being asked. And don't
just make them up on the spot. Have them (fake or real, whatever) memorized. If
you're picking up in person, print up some business cards and take them along
with your PO and fake ID.

Other things: when purchasing chemicals, don't let on that you know anything
about the processes related to clandestine manufacture. Pick a legitimate area
of organic/medical chemistry or chemical engineering research -- how about
pesticides, improved delivery of orally administered drugs, solubility
variations with temperature and pressure? Know where you got "your" under-
graduate degree and maybe "your" graduate degree. Know when "you" graduated.
And don't pick a big school, either. Pick a smaller university in another part
of the country, because if you don't, then Murphy's Law says that the person to
whom you are speaking will have attended the same big school that you did, and
will ask something about the campus, faculty or town that you won't be able to
answer. Even better, pick some place that you have visited and with which you
are relatively familiar. If you used to date a guy who went to Podunk State
University in Southern Kansas, then PSU-SK sounds like a great chemistry
department for you.

Did you learn a really believable Australian accent by watching Paul Hogan, a
good Massachusetts accent from old videotapes of JFK, or a great Belfast accent
from your granny? Hmm. That might be useful. But if you're going international,
you'd better know something about where "you" came from, then. Referring to a
Scottish or Irish person as English could cause him to put his fist down your
throat. Koreans are not Chinese. Perth is on the west coast of Australia, Sydney
and Melbourne are on the east. People who live in San Francisco will often call
SF "the city" in conversation. Cambridge and Boston are not the same town.
Orange County is not LA, at least not to people who live in LA. Dallas and Fort
Worth have individual identities; people in Forth Worth DO NOT live in Dallas,
and God help you if you think otherwise. The Netherlands is a country, not a
region. Ukrainians are not Russian. Pakistan and India are not the same country.

Be friendly, loose and confident, but don't be too talkative. If you've

volunteered all of this information before they've even asked you to name your
first item, they're going to be suspicious. If it comes up in conversation while
they're processing your order, great. If you can laugh, or you can make them
laugh, great, but leave the subject matter as something that isn't particularly
memorable. Stay away from any kind of conversation about controlled substances,
even if you're just joking around or poking fun at "those fools trying to make
drugs." If they bring it up, say something appropriately disdainful about "those
fools." For example, if you're standing in front of the person, you might roll
your eyes and say "yeah, sometimes I think that the gene pool could use a little
chlorine." Whatever you do, don't take the opportunity to get on your soapbox
and wax poetic about the unfairness of our ridiculous War on Drugs. If you do:
BING BING BING! Red flag. Just hope that they don't call the police while you're
waiting for your acetic acid, 2.5L of hexane, and your condenser.

For walk in purchases, try to be inconspicuous. Wear something nondescript. A

polo shirt and khakis. Button down shirt and slacks with a subtle tie. A fairly
plain sweater and skirt. Try not to have the mascot of the some distant
university on your jacket, or a "I Took Second Place in the Main Street 5K Run!"
t-shirt. If you're going to shave your beard, cut or color your hair, or get new
glasses, maybe this is a great time to stock up on potassium hydroxide, LAH and
hydrochloric acid.

Let's say that, God forbid, you are forced into conversation. (This happens a
lot for walk in business, not so much for telephone purchases.) Little things
mean a lot in conversation, especially if someone wants to be suspicious of you.
DO NOT go looking for conversation. Be polite, be friendly, but get the fuck in
and then get the fuck out. This includes both telephone conversations and walk
in. If you are forced into conversation, and the opportunity is presented, take
an opportunity to mention how many non-standard ground glass stoppers you've
accumulated in the stopper drawer at the lab. Bitch about an incompetent co-
worker. Comment about how the inspection guy came around yesterday to check the
fire extinguishers. Talk about the person you met on the ride up the office
elevator that morning. Complain about how you're going to have to pay $2500 to
have your rotovap replaced because one of the lab assistants pushed it off of
the bench. Praise your graduate advisor for her tireless work in developing
delivery mechanisms for antibacterial drugs. Etc. You get the idea.

Developing a convincing and complicated lie is an art form. Practice. Know your
entire fake life's history before you start using it. If you're married in your
fake life, don't refer to your girlfriend, even if you're not at the same place.
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If you played soccer, don't talk about how you hate sports. Be consistent.

So, IMHO, the most important things are:

- Be calm, confident, consistent, professional and knowledgeable.

It's no big deal for you to be buying THF, acetone, chloroform and
250 ml boiling flasks. These are common fixtures in a lab, and you
do this all the time. Really.

- Know what you want. When you're out of something in a lab, you know
what it is, you make a list, and you pick up the telephone and order
it. You don't flip through a catalog going, "and, um, some pentane,
and... let's see, 500g of NaOH, and 50g of LAH... no, make that 250g
of LAH...."

- Spread out your business. If you simply must have all of the stuff to
make a particular drug, and you must have it now, then buy from four
or five different suppliers. This is just as suspicious if someone is
watching you, but the suppliers don't usually communicate with each
other, so they don't know to raise a red flag.

- Don't be particularly memorable. Unless it's unavoidable, keep

unnecessary chatter to a minimum, but don't be brusque, rude or
dismissive. If you do talk, stay calm. Sound like you do in everyday
conversation. As a culture, Americans are very friendly and outgoing.
So are Australians. Canadians and Europeans tend to be a bit more
reserved. Educated people from Georgia are very polite, saying "yes
sir" and "no ma'am." People from New York are more abrupt but still
professional. Fit the mold. Always fit the mold.

- Have documentation. If they ask for your driver's license, you'd

better have one. If they ask for a faxed PO, you'd better have a fax
machine close by. Don't give them everything up front, but if they
want it, don't be a jerk about it. Be prepared.


[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 12, 2001).]

megalomania August 12th, 2001, 07:35 PM

Here is the reprint of the article by Strike from the Hive:

Here is the truth you have been waiting for. The nebulous threat of "watched chemicals" has been spooking chemists for
years. No one seems to know for sure what they are or who is watching them. Well (tee hee), I do. Being sick to death about
this whole matter, I marched my ass over to the local science house and demanded to see the manager. I explained that as a
private researcher I was sick of the narcotics agents always coming to my house and bugging me and my family every time I
ordered a watched chemical. I pointed to the little sheet of List I and List II chems above his sales counter and asked to know
where the list of "watched" or "suspicious" chemicals were, because I wanted to avoid their sales in the future. The manager
sympathized with my predicament and said that he did not like the DEA intrusions on his store as well. He explained to me the
DEA routine of checking his records and what he knew that they looked for. But he had no idea what any watched chemical was.
Never had his company been instructed by the DEA regarding anything other than the List I and List II chemicals. I thanked
him and bought some filter paper to show my appreciation. I did four other on-site visits to chem companies in my state.
None knew a damn thing about `watched' chemicals. I contacted out-of-state companies. No dice. I contacted the owners of
seven "rogue" lab stores who would definitely NOT withhold privileged info. They too knew nothing about it. In fact, no one
knows what chemicals are "watched" EXCEPT the DEA. And the DEA wants it this way. Why should they tip their hat to lab stores
or the public and give up their element of surprise? That's how they make busts: by scrutinizing the public and not letting
them know what they are being scrutinized over. Sound criminal? You bet! And it probably is antithematic to the Constitution.
So, as a public service announcement and as a protective defense against unwarranted search, I give you the list of watched
chemicals that you are not supposed know about in the Watched Chemicals List.


Acetaldehyde, Acetamide, Acetaminophen, N-Acetyl Anthranillic Acid, Alumina (activated), Aluminum Chloride, Aluminum
Oxide, Aluminum Powder, Ammonium Formate, Ammonium Nitrate, Aniline, pAnisaldehyde, Arsenic Metal, Arsenic Pentoxide,
Arsenic Trichloride, Arsenic Trioxide, Benzene, Benzocaine, Biotin, Boron Trifluoride, Bromine, Bromobenzene, Brucine
Sulphate, Butylamine gammaButyrolactone, Caffeine, Calcium Metal, Calcium Carbide, Calcium Hydride, Carbon Disulfide,
Carbon Tetrachloride, Chloroacetone, Chloroform, 2-Chloropyridine, Chromium Picolinate, Citral, Cyclohexanone, Dichloroacetic
Acid, Diethyl Malonate, Diethylarruine, Digitonin, Digitoxin, Dihydroxyacetone, Dimethyl Sulfate, Dimethyl Sulfoxide,
Dinitrochlorobenzene, Diphenylacetonitrile, Epinephrine, Epinephrine Bitartate, Estradiol, Estriol, Estrone, Ethinyl Estradiol,
Ethylacetoacetate, Ethyl Alcohol (190-200 proof), Ethyl Magnesium Bromide, Ethylenediamine, Folic Acid, Formamide, Formic
Acid, Freon, Gallic Acid, Glycolic Acid, Guaifenesin, Hexachlorophene, Hexyl Resorcinol, Hydrazine, Hydrazine Dihydrochloride,
Hydrazine Hydrate, Hydrazine Sulfate, Hydrobromic Acid, Hydrochloric Acid (ups, nf, fcc grades), Hydrocortisone, Hydrofluoric
Acid, Hydrogen Peroxide 30% & 50%, Hyoscyamine, Ibuprofen, Indole, Inositol, Iron Filings, Ketoglutaric Acid, Lactose, Lead
Acetate, Lidocaine, Lithium Metal, 3,5-Diiodosalithium, Lithium Acetate, Lithium Aluminum Hydride, Lithium Bromide, Lithium
Carbonate, Lithium Chloride, Lithium Chromate, Lithium Citrate, Lithium Cobalt, Lithium Dodecyl Sulfate, Lithium Fluoride,
Lithium Hydroxide, Lithium Lactate, Lithium Metaborate, Lithium Nitrate, Lithium Oxalate, Lithium Perchlorate, Lithium Sulfate,
Lithium Tetraborate, Lycopodium, Magnesium Metal, Magnesium Turnings, Mannitol, Megestrol Acetate, Mercuric Acetate,
Mercuric Bromide, Mercuric Chloride, Mercuric Cyanide, Mercuric Iodide, Mercuric Nitrate, Mercuric Oxide, Mercuric Oxycyanide,
Mercuric Sulfate, Mercuric Sulfide, Mercuric Thiocyanate, Mercurous Chloride, Mercurous Nitrate, Mercurous Sulfate, Mercury
Bichloride, Methylformamide, Methylprednisolone, Methylpropylarrune, Methylsulfoxide, Methyltestosterone, Miconazole Nitrate,
Naproxen Sodium, Niacin, Niacinamide Ascorbate, Nicotinamide, Nifedipme, Nitrofuranation, Nitromethane, Nystatin, Oxalyl
Chloride, Palladium Black, Palladium Metal (powder), Palladium on Alumina, Palladium on Charcoal, Papaverine HCl, Peracetic
Acid, Perchloric Acid, Petroleum Ether, Phenacetin, Phenol, Phenyl Magnesium Bromide, Phenyl Magnesium Chloride,
Phenylalanine, Phenyl Mercuric Acetate, Phenyl Mercuric Borate, Phenyl Mercuric Chloride, Phenyl Mercuric Nitrate, Phenyl
Mercuric Salicylate, Phosphorus Oxychloride, Phosphorus Pentachloride, Physostigmine, Phytonadione, Picric Acid, Pilocarpine,
Potassium Chlorate, Potassium Cyanide, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Perchlorate, Potassium Permanganate, Proxamine
Hydrochloride, Prednisolone, Prednisone, Pregnenolone, Prilocaine, Procaine, Progesterone, Promethazine Hydrochloride,
Propenylbenzene, Propionic Anhydride, Propranolol, Pyridine, Pyridoxal, Pyridoxine, Quinine, Raney Nickle, Reserpine,
Riboflavin, Salicylic Acid, Scopolamine, Selenous Acid, Sodium Acetate, Sodium Azide, Sodium Borohydride, Sodium Chlorate,
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Sodium Chlorite, Sodium Cyanide, Sodium Fluoride, Sodium Iodide, Sodium Metal, Sodium Nitrate, Sodium Nitrite, Sodium
Perchlorate, Sodium Peroxide, Sodium Sulfate, Sodium Sulfathiazole, Strychnine, Styrene, Sulfanilamide, Sulfathiazole, Sulfur
Trioxide, Theophylline, Thionyl Chloride, TitaniumTetrachloride, p-Toluenesulfonic Acid, o-Toluidine, Trichloroacetic Acid,
Trichlorotrifluoroethane, Trifluoroacetic Anhydride, 3,4,5-Trimethoxy Compounds (Any!), Tryptophan, Vitamin A Acetate,
Vitamin E, Vitamin E Acetate.

Sorry I couldn't put that in a tabular format. It would've taken too many pages. The information in the list was pulled from
both the DEA and the California Department of Justice. Some of the entries are watched because of their potential for mass
poisonings or bomb making. But the bulk of the list is for drugs.

Right now I can see a bunch of you running around in circles screaming because you've realized you've ordered half of the shit
on that list. And I'm at a loss to explain it. No one has busted me for ordering the stuff. No one I know who has ordered
things of this nature has gotten busted on account of them. I leave it up to you to judge how you may approach ordering
these chems. My personal take on all this is that any one, two or possibly three of these chems ordered together would not be
suspicious unless they were ordered in very large amounts or they were known to have specific uses when ordered together.

The best advice I can give you is from a warning notice I found on the "Sales Policy" web page of a very friendly and
forthcoming laboratory supply company:

We do not wish to end up in court as a witness for the prosecution against you. Sorry, but we really don't need the business
that bad. If you're interested in buying items which can be used for making explosives or illicit drugs, please be aware of the
following: the California State Department of Justice and the various Federal agencies regularly review our sales for patterns of
purchases which may lead to an arrest. In California knowingly selling any item which is then used in felony drug or bomb
making is a felony also for the seller. Enough said. Go elsewhere to buy these items.

Finally, it is worth noting that someone, somewhere once said he hoped the government would place every chemical under
suspicion or restriction. I agree because it would negate its own intentions. And let me tell ya - that Watched Chemical List is
huge! It is, in fact, prohibitively huge. And the bigger it gets, the sillier and more useless it becomes. Keep it up guys!


Listed Chemicals
Posted in every lab store, chem distributorship or manufacturing plant is a single, yellow sheet of paper that the DEA has sent
to them. Printed on the paper is the List I and List II Scheduled Chemicals that the DEA wants restricted. The table below is an
exact replica of the most current list as of early 1998. The only difference is that late-breaking word from the DEA has it that
iodine crystals and HCl gas will be added to the List II compounds in the very near future so I have added them to the table

List I Chemicals

Anthranilic Acid
Benzyl Cyanide
Phenylacetic Acid
Hydriodic Acid (57%)
Propionic Anhydride
N-Acetylanthranilic Acid
List II Chemicals
Threshold by vol. Threshold by wt.
Acetic Anhydride 250 gallons 1023 kg
Acetone 50 gallons 150 kg
Benzyl Chloride N/A 1 kg
Ethyl Ether 50 gallons 135.8 kg
Methyl Ethyl Ketone 50 gallons 145 kg
Potassium Permanganate N/A 55 kg
Toluene 50 gallons 159 kg

List I Chemicals (a.k.a. Schedule I Chemicals, a.k.a. Precursor Chemicals) are all illegal to own or buy in any quantity without
a DEA or State Permit. List II Chemicals (a.k.a. Schedule II Chemicals, a.k.a. Essential Chemicals) can be purchased legally in
amounts below the limits stated in Table I. But if you want to buy amounts of List II chemicals above the thresholds given in
Table I, then you're gonna need that DEA or state permit.

Most lab stores simply refuse to sell List I and List II chemicals because of the stigma they carry. This includes sales to people
with permits. That is just fine in my book. No one has any business buying List I and List II chemicals, nor does anyone have
any need for the chemicals these days. In fact, I have a greater trust in companies that do this. This is because they are
limiting the potential for abuse by customers, thus freeing themselves to more confidently sell the rest of their chems and

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
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Lagen August 12th, 2001, 07:47 PM
If there is any interest, I can post the lists of "watched" and "completely outlawed" chemicals for my country.

Lagen August 13th, 2001, 12:32 AM

OK, I had a look at the Bill on Chemical Substances, and am giving some of the Lists of controlled substances for Czech
Republic. It took me a few hours to compile it, but there might be some typing or translation errors. Therefore I am giving the
CAS numbers, wherever available, in parentheses. I would be grateful if anyone in another European country had a look at
theirs and told me if it's more or less similar...

List I (Controlled Highly Toxic Substances):

Fluorine (7782-41-4), Bromine (7726-95-6), Phosphorus, White (12185-10-3), Hydrogen Sulfide (7783-06-4), Arsenic(III)
Oxide (1327-53-3), Nitrogen(IV) Oxide (10102-44-0), Nitrogen(IV) Oxide Dimer (10544-72-6), Boron Trichloride (10294-34-
5), Boron Tribromide (10294-33-4), Boron Trifluoride (7637-07-2), Mercury(II) Chloride (7487-94-7), Thallium(I) Sulfate
(7446-18-6), Cadmium(II) Cyanide (542-83-6), Calcium(II) Cyanide (592-01-8), Other Cyanides except Complex Cyanides
(e.g. Ferro- and Ferri-Cyanides and Mercury(II) Oxycyanide), Sodium Dichromate (10588-01-9), Sodium Dichromate dihydrate
(7789-12-0), Potassium Dichromate (7778-50-9), Ammonium Dichromate (7789-09-5), Osmium(VIII) Oxide (20816-12-0),
Aluminum(III) Phosphide (20859-73-8), Magnesium(II) Phosphide (12057-74-8), Calcium(II) Phosphide (1305-99-3),
Zinc(II) Phosphide (1314-84-7), Hydrogen Arsenide (7784-42-1), Sodium Azide (26628-22-8), Cyanogen Bromide (506-68-3),
1,1,2,2-Tetrachloroethane (79-34-5), 1,4-Dichlorobut-2-ene (764-41-0), 3-Chlorpropene (107-05-1), 1,1,2,2-
Tetrabromoethane (79-27-6), Hexachlorocyclopenta-1,3-diene (77-47-4), Dinitrobenzene (mixture of isomers) (25154-54-5),
Nitrobenzene (98-95-3), Trinitrobenzene (25377-32-6), Chlorotrinitrobenzene (mixture of isomers) (28260-61-9), 4,6-Dinitro-
o-cresole (534-52-1), 4,6-Dinitro-o-cresole, Ammonium Salt (2980-64-5), Bis(2-chloroethyl)ether (111-44-4),
Bis(chloromethyl)ether (542-88-1), Isodrine (465-73-6), Acrylaldehyde (107-02-8), Difacinone (82-66-6), Chlorofacinone
(3691-35-8), Fluenetile (4301-50-2), Ethyl Chloroformiate (541-41-3), Sodium Fluoroacetate (62-74-8), Fluoroacetic Acid
(144-49-0), Fluoroacetates, water soluble, Ethyl Bromoacetate (105-36-2), Mevinphos (7786-34-7), Chlorophenvinphos (470-
90-6), Tetraethyl Diphosphate (107-49-3), Dimethyl-[4- (methylsulphanyl)phenyl]-phosphate (3254-63-5), Diethyleneglycol
Dinitrate (693-21-0), Dimethyl Sulfate (77-78-1), Ethylene Dinitrate (628-96-6), Nitroglycerine (55-63-0), Parathione (56-38-
2), Parathione-methyl (298-00-0), Sulfothep (3689-24-5), N-Nitrosodimethylamine (62-75-9), N,N-Dimethylsulfamoylchloride
(13360-57-1), Dipropylenetriamine (56-18-8), 2,4-Dinitroaniline (97-02-9), Chloronitroaniline (N/A), Bis(2,4,6-trinitrophenyl)-
amine (131-73-7), Dipicrylamine, Ammonium Salt (2844-92-0), 2-Methoxyaniline, o-Anisidine (90-04-0), 4-Methoxyaniline, p-
Anisidine (104-94-9), 4-Methoxy-2-nitro-Aniline (96-96-8), reaction product of L-Glutamic Acid and N-alkyl(C12-C14)propane-
1,3-diamine (56-86-0), Other Glutamic Acid Salts, Monocrotophos (6923-22-4), Phosphamidone (13171-21-6), Dicrotophos
(141-66-2), Mexacarbate (315-18-4), Formethanate (22259-30-9), Formethanate Hydrochloride (23422-53-9), Acetone
Cyanohydrine (75-86-5), 3-Chloro-6-cyanobicyclo[2.2.1]heptane-2-on-O-(methylcarbamoyl)oxime (15271-41-7), 2-[3-(Prop-
1-en-2-yl)phenyl]-prop-2-yl-isocyanate (2094-99-7), Dimefox (115-26-4), Phosacetime (4104-14-7), Mipafox (371-86-8),
Schradan (152-16-9), Terbuphos (13071-79-9), Aldicarb (116-06-3), Disulfotone (298-04-4), Ethoprophos (13194-48-4), S-
[2-(Ethylsulfinyl)ethyl]-0,0-dimethyl-phosphorodithioate (2703-37-9), S-[(Ethylsulfinyl)methyl]-0,0-diisopropyl-
phosphorodithioate (5827-05-4), Phenamiphos (22224-92-6), Phensulfothione (115-90-2), Methamidophos (10265-92-6),
Methomyl (16752-77-5), Alfa-naphthyl-thiourea (86-88-4), Oxamyl (23135-22-0), Oxydisulfotone (2497-07-6), Prothoate
(2275-18-5), Forate (298-02-2), Tfiofanox (39196-18-4), Chlormephos (24934-91-6), Chlorthiophos (21923-23-9),
Cyanthoate (3734-95-0), Demephione-O (682-80-4), Demephione-S (2587-90-8), Demetone (8065-48-3), Demetone-S
(126-75-0), Demetone-O (298-03-3), Dialiphos (10311-84-9), 1-(3,4-Dichloroanilino)-thiosemicarbazide (5836-73-7),
Demethione (mixture of isomers) (8065-62-1), Organic Compounds of Mercury, Phonophos (944-22-9), Phentin Acetate (900-
95-8), Phentin Hydroxide (76-87-9), Compounds of Trimethyl-Tin, Compounds of Triethyl-Tin, Inorganic Compounds of
Mercury except Mercury(II) Sulfide, Dialkylhydrargyrium (N/A), Nickel Tetracarbonyl (13463-39-3), Dialkyl(C1-C5) Plumbanes,
Tetraalkyl(C1-C3) Plumbanes, O-Ethyl-O-(4-nitrophenyl)-phenyl-phosphonothioate (2104-64-5), Trichloronate (327-98-0),
Propano-3-lactone(Beta-propiolactone) (57-57-8), Brodifacum (56073-10-0), 0,0-Diethyl-O-(4-methyl-2(2H)-oxochromen-7-
yl)phosphorothioate (299-45-6), Diphenacum (56073-07-5), Cumaphos (56-72-4), Cumatetralyle (5836-29-3), Dioxathione
(78-34-2), 4,4,5,5,-Tetrachloro-1,3-dioxolan-2-one (22432-68-4), Isobenzane (297-78-9), Carbofurane (1563-66-2), Isolane
(119-38-0), Pyraxozone (108-34-9), 1,3-Dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methyl-imidazolidin-2,4-dione (89415-87-2), Crimidine (535-89-
7), Azinphos-ethyl (2642-71-9), Azinphos-methyl (86-50-0), Aziridine (151-56-4), 2-Methylaziridine (75-55-8), Thionazine
(297-97-2), Triamiphos (1031-47-6), Methidathione (950-37-8), Blasticidine-S (2079-00-7), Phospholane (947-02-4),
Phosthiethane (21548-32-3), Mephospholane (950-10-7), Scilliroside (507-60-8), Nicotine and its salts (54-11-5), Brucine and
its salts (357-57-3), Strychnine and its salts (57-24-9), Aconitine and its salts (302-27-2), Atropine and its salts (51-55-8),
Physostigmine and Eserine and their salts (57-47-6), Hyoscyamine and its salts (101-31-5), Colchicine (64-86-8), Pilocarpine
and its salts (92-13-7), Scopolamine and its salts (51-34-3), Thallium (7440-28-0), Compounds of Thallium.

List II (Controlled Toxic Substances):

Arsenic (7440-38-2), Hydrogen Selenide (7783-07-5), Selenium(IV) Oxide (7446-08-4), Chlorides and Oxychlorides of Arsenic
(7784-34-1), Halogen and Sulfur Compounds of Arsenic (7784-45-4), Arsenic Sulfides (12044-79-0, 7488-56-4), Sodium
Selenate (13410-01-0), Sodium Tellurite (10102-20-2), Sodium Selenite (10102-18-8), Hydrogen Phosphide (7803-51-2),
Tetrachlormethane (Carbon Tetrachloride) (56-23-5), 1,1,1-trichloroethane(methylchloroform) (71-55-6), Bromomethane
(Methylbromide) (74-83-9), Methyl Iodide (Iodomethane) (74-88-4), Methanol (Methyl Alcohol) (67-56-1), Salts of Cresoles
(1319-77-3, 108-39-4, 95-48-7, 106-44-5), Dinitrophenol (25550-58-7),
2,4-Dinitrophenol, Sodium Salt (1011-73-0), 1-Chloro-2,3-epoxypropane (Epichlorohydrine) (106-89-8), Tris(o-cresyl)
Phosphate (78-30-8), Dichlorvos (62-73-7), Heptenophos (23560-59-0), Bromophos-ethyl (4824-78-6), Acrylonitrile (107-13-
1), R-+-Mandelonitrile (Benzaldehydecyanhydrine) (532-28-5), Butyronitrile (109-74-0), Flucythrinate (70124-77-5),
Malononitrile (109-77-3), Diazomethane (334-88-3), Phenylhydrazine (100-63-0), Omethoate (1113-02-6), Propetamphos
(31218-83-4), Bis(tributyltin) Oxide (56-35-9), Organic Compounds of Tin (813-19-4, 4808-30-4, 56573-85-4, 688-73-3,
1461-22-9), Carbosulfane (55285-14-8), Furathiocarb (65907-30-4), Pirimiphos-ethyl (23505-41-1), Pirimiphos-methyl
(29232-93-7), Triazophos (24017-47-8).

List III (Essential Substances):

Hydrochloric Acid and Hydrochloric Gas (7647-01-0), Sulfuric Acid (7664-93-9), Potassium Permanganate (7722-64-7), Toluene
(Methylbenzene) (108-88-3), Ether (Diethylether) (60-29-7), Acetone (2-Propanone) (67-64-1), Methylethylketone (2-
Butanone) (78-93-3), Acetic Anhydride (108-24-7), Phenylacetic Acid and its Salts (103-82-2), Anthranilic Acid (2-Aminobenzoic
Acid) and its Salts (118-92-3), Piperidine (Hexahydropyridine) (110-89-4).

List IV (Precursors):
Phenylacetone (1-Phenyl-2-propanone) (103-79-7), N-Acetylanthranilic Acid (2-Acetamidebenzoic Acid) (89-52-1), Isosafrole
(1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propenylbenzene) (120-58-1), 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (4676-39-5), Piperonal (1,3-
Benzodioxol-5-carbaldehyde) (120-57-0), Safrole (4-Allyl-1,2-methylenedioxybenzene) (94-59-7), Ephedrine (Erythro-1-
phenyl-2-methylaminopropane-1-ol) and its Salts (299-42-3, 56006-05-3, 50-98-6, 134-72-5, 81012-98-8),
Pseudoephedrine(INN) and its Salts (90-82-4, 345-78-8, 7460-12-0), Ergomethrine(INN) and its Salts (60-79-7, 74283-21-9,
129-51-1, 129-50-1), Ergotamine(INN) and its Salts (113-15-5, 379-79-1, 74283-21-9), Lysergic Acid and its Salts (82-58-6),
Hemp Seed, Poppy Hay.
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Controlled Substances for Import: Ethanol non-denatured and products thereof, Ammonium Nitrate and aqueous solutions
thereof, Dextrines and other modified staches, Methylester of Rapeseed Oil, Biological Fuel Oil.

Controlled Pharmaceuticals, Wastes, Radioactive Materials - omitted...

What those Lists (I-IV, I named them so) mean: It's quite complicated, I would have to post the whole Bills here. But, if
you're looking at it from the perspective of a private individual, without a chemical business etc., over 18, mentally sane etc.:
You must not own or distribute any List I substance, or any other substance classificated as carcinogenic (there are a few
exceptions, like fuels), mutagenic or toxic for reproduction. Posession of drugs for your own use is not outlawed, although you
do get trouble with it.

What I have not done yet: The Lists II-IV have something to do with some other specific Bills (on drugs and their precursors
etc.) and they probably form a part of the Watched Substances List (I am not sure if I can get a complete version). I will have
a look at them. Possession of explosives in general is not outlawed, but allowed to licensed individuals only.

megalomania August 19th, 2001, 02:46 AM

Here is a reference list of regulatory databases by country or region. This list is not specific, but it should help as a starting
point for people to find what their government says is forbidden...

Australian Inventory of Chemical Substances (AICS), 1996 and subsequent updates from the Commonwealth of Australia
Canadian Domestic Substances list (DSL) and Non-Domestic Substances List (NDSL); data from the Supplement to the Canada
Gazette, Part I, January 26, 1991, and subsequent updates from the Canada Gazette.
European Inventory of Existing Commercial Chemical Substances (EINECS); data from the English, French, German, and
Spanish edition of the Annex to the Official Journal of the European Communities C146A, June 15, 1990 and EINECS
Corrections, March 1997. No Longer Polymers List (NLP), September, 1996.
European List of Notified Chemical Substances (ELINCS); data from the Annex to Official Journal of European Communities
C72, 11 March 2000, and subsequent updates from later issues of the publication.
Japanese Existing and New Chemical Substances List (ENCS); data from Japanese inventory sources with updates as they
become available.
Korean Existing Chemicals List (ECL); data from the Existing Chemicals List, published by the Ministry of the Environment in
1997 and subsequent published supplements.
Philippines Inventory of Chemicals and Chemical Substances (PICCS), September 2000 and subsequent updates.
Swiss Regulated Chemicals Lists: INVENTORY of Notified New Substances in Accordance with the Ordinance on Substances,
September 2000 and the Giftliste 1, June 2000 and subsequent updates.
US Toxic Substances Control Act Chemical Substance Inventory (TSCA); data from the 1985 TSCA Inventory and supplements,
and updates from the US Government Federal Register and NTIS TSCA Inventory Tape.

U.S. Regulatory Lists

Department of Transportation (Coast Guard Bulk Hazardous Materials; Coast Guard Noxious Liquid Substances; Hazardous
Materials Table; Marine Pollutants)
Drug Enforcement Administration (Controlled Substances)
Environmental Protection Agency (Clean Air Act: Hazardous Air Pollutants; Clean Air Act: Ozone Depletion Chemicals List; Clean
Air Act: Volatile Organic Compounds; Clean Water Act Sections 301, 307, and 311; FIFRA: Pesticide Active Ingredients; FIFRA:
Pesticide Inert Ingredients; RCRA Halogenated Organic Compounds; Safe Drinking Water Act Public Water System
Contaminants; National Primary Drinking Water Regulations, 40 CFR Part 141; Superfund Amendments and Reauthorization
Act: ATSDR Priority List; Superfund Amendments and Reauthorization Act: Extremely Hazardous Substances
Food and Drug Administration (Food Substances Generally Recognized as Safe; (Priority-Based Assessment of Food Additives)
International Agency for Research on Cancer
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (Hazard, Toxicology and Use Information; (Recommended Exposure
National Toxicology Program (Carcinogen List; (Technical Reports List)
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (Highly Hazardous Chemicals; Permissible Exposure Levels)
State (California PROP65; Illinois; Massachusetts; Michigan; New Jersey; Pennsylvania)
International Regulatory Lists
Canadian HMIS Ingredient Disclosure List
European Union EEC Classification, Packaging, and Labeling of Dangerous Substances
Korean Existing Chemicals Control Law Toxic Chemicals and Specified Toxic Chemicals Designations)

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

Teck August 20th, 2001, 05:49 AM

All I can say is shit! Thank God the only thing I'v order through mail was Potassium Perchlorate and some aluminum.
I have few questions why is Potassium Permanganate in the List?

and also Pyrotek sell ALOT of chemicals that arnt used in your average pyrotechnics, some chems they sell: hexamine,
nitromethane, hydrogen peroxide, iodine, and a few others. So does anyone think theres a sting operation through them?

Also I want to buy a distil through United Glass Tech, is there anything suspicious in me buying a condenser and some flasks,
as a private hobist?

megalomania August 21st, 2001, 01:16 AM

As far as I know only the state of California has any legal restrictions on laboratory glassware or apparatus. Californians can
thank that the liberal bitch senatehoar Diane Feinstein for that bit of legislation. The restrictions apply to certain items like 3-
neck flasks and large capacity items (3-5 L and up), not really your standard lab equipment. Even those large companies
who require proof of you being a school or business when buying chemicals will sell labware to individuals. Remember it is
still perfectly legal to purchase chemicals, labware, etc. and to use those items as one sees fit, as long as that use complies
with the law. The big problem is that the law makes more things illegal every day. Furthermore, while some chemicals may
be on The Lis t it is still legal to purch a s e a n d u s e them. Just be aware that if you actually do use them in vio latio n of the law
that you are that much closer to having the federalies bust down your door at 4 AM.
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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > concentrations

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hairyjoe August 10th, 2001, 03:07 AM

i feel really stupid posting this, but hey, im new to the board. When someone says "you n eed to distill to 98% conc" what does
that mean? is that 98% of the chem ical by volume, m a s s m o l e s , m o l a r i t y ? p l e a s e h e l p m e u n d e r s t a n d t h i s

wantsomfet August 10th, 2001, 09:54 AM

I suggets you learn the basics before you try to do anything.
A 98% HNO3 concentration would be 98% HNO 3 a n d 2 % H 2 O .

for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://ka ngaroooo.cjb.net)

hairyjoe August 10th, 2001, 02:16 PM

yes i know 98% HNO 3 would b e 2% H2 O, but 2% by what? m oles, volum e , g r a m s ? p l e a s e h e l p m e out here

CragHack August 10th, 2001, 02:45 PM

it doesn't m atter what m e a s u r e m e n t y o u a r e u s i n g . I t c o u l d b e 9 8 m o l e s o f H N O 3 and 2 moles of H2O. that would work. it
c o u l d b e 9 8 g r a m s a n d 2 g r a m s . t h e p roportions have to be 98:2 if you want a 98% concentration.

"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

a_bab August 10th, 2001, 06:29 PM

Usualy, a 98% solution of HNO3 means that if you have, let's say, 500 gram s of this solution, it will contain 98*500/100=490
grams of PURE nitric acid and 10 grams of water. So, the concentrations are given in weight, unless there are others
specificated (molar, molal, volumetric, etc.) The biggest m istake is to consider that 98% means 980 ml of nitric acid (or other)
a n d 1 0 m l water/litre of solution...

http://m ove.to/pyrom a n i a

Lagen August 10th, 2001, 10:08 PM

CragHack: 98:2 weight ratio and 98:2 m olar ratio are two differe nt things. They're the sam e if, and only if, the molar weights
of the two com p o u n d s a r e t h e s a m e . H a i r y j o e : a l w a y s a s s u m e all proportions and concentrations to be on W EIGHT basis,
unle ss specified otherwise. (But: In this very field - particularly in various pyrotechnic mixes - you m ust watch out for people
giving ratios by volum e, without notice... Better ask them , before mixing any powders...)

hairyjoe August 11th, 2001, 01:24 AM

T H A N K Y O U L a g e n a n d a-bab, i was starting to rethink my initial assumption that people on this m e s s a g e b o a r d h a d b r a i n s .
Y o u t w o h a v e u p h e l d m y a s s u m ption.

CragHack August 11th, 2001, 04:37 AM

m y bad lagen, i guess i didn't consider volume when trying to sim p l i f y t h i n g s . 9 8 p o u n d s o f o n e t h i n g a n d 2 p o u n d s o f a n o t h e r
could be 98% and 2% under the scope of weight but not necesarily volum e. thanks for the correction.

"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Urea manufacture

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stanfield August 11th, 2001, 04:54 AM

Is there a way to produce not-too-bad quality urea ?


the freshmaker August 11th, 2001, 08:19 AM

I can buy Carbamide from my chem-supply.
Is this Urea or what?

I don't know how to produce Urea but in "Chemistry of Powder & Explosives" there is alot of info on Urea Nitrate, Nitro Urea, etc.

Lagen August 11th, 2001, 09:19 AM

Urea = NH2C(=O)NH2 = Carbamide = Carbonyldiamide


The cheapest source of urea I know is urea fertilizer, I'm getting it for about $0.50/kg. The purity is about 98%, if needed, it can be recrystallized from alcohol. Urea is
produced commercially by several steps, which begin with the direct reaction of ammonia with carbon dioxide in a high pressure, high temperature reactor. This cannot be done
at home.

Preparation of Urea from Urine: (and a shortcut route to urea nitrate)

Fresh urine, gently evaporated to the consistency of syrup, is treated with its own volume of 34% nitric acid. The mixture is then shaken and immersed in an ice bath to solidify
the crystals of urea nitrate; these are washed with ice cold water, drained, and pressed between sheets of blotting paper or filter paper. The product from this operation is then
dissolved in water to which potassium carbonate is added, whereby the nitric acid is taken up, and the urea set at liberty. This new solution is evaporated at a gentle heat,
nearly to dryness, the residue is treated with pure alcohol, which only dissolves the urea, the alcohol+urea solution is then filtered and evaporated from which the urea

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 11, 2001).]

mongo blongo August 12th, 2001, 07:24 PM

You can use Sodium carbonate instead of potassium carbonate right?

Lagen August 12th, 2001, 08:15 PM

It would work quite well IMHO, but some sodium nitrate will dissolve in the alcohol. (KNO3 is completely insoluble in it.) You can counter it with more careful recrystallization
(you will get a lower yield). Similarly, if you can get and wish to sacrifice some barium carbonate, you will get better results than with potash (see below).

There are numerous alternative ways of urea or urea nitrate manufacture from urine. Maybe you will have to do some calculations first (I'm not using these procedures, but I'm
sure they will come handy in a few years if our masters decide to ban everything), the following are not recipes, it's a *hint*:
Urea is usually obtained from urine by treating the concentrated filtered liquid with hot saturated solution of oxalic acid and decomposing the sparingly soluble urea oxalate thus
obtained with powdered chalk; the filtrate is decolorized with animal charcoal and evaporated until the urea crystallises out on cooling. (Note by Lagen: For animal charcoal,
use powder from the black tablets for treating digestive disorders, I don't know the correct English name, but I'm sure its charcoal from animal blood.) Another method consists
in extracting the urea with alcohol from syrup obtained by evaporating the urine, precipitating the urea as the sparingly soluble nitrate by the addition on concentrated nitric
acid, and decomposing the salt by boiling with barium carbonate and alcohol; the urea is obtained by crystallization from the filtrate. Another process for urea nitrate: 60% nitric
acid is added to urine 1:2 in volume, and the resulting mixture is evaporated in a hood or outside and in glass container until it has been reduced to 40% of its original volume.
The mixture is chilled and urea nitrate separates in nice crystals.
Note that fresh urine must be used, fermented urine contains loads of other stuff (like binary amines - smell extremely) so if you decide to scale up your urea production, don't
start by digging a cavern under public restrooms! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif More seriously, avoid the "recipes" that go like "boil down pee to
dryness and voila, you got urea!" Urine contains hundreds of substances, several of them in substantial concentrations (uric acid, hippuric acid, other amines, and mineral salts).

mongo blongo August 13th, 2001, 12:54 AM

Im gona try this (with more careful
recrystallization)I will be using it for treating red HNO3 for RDX so i will have to get as much of that Sodium Carbonate out as possible.
Urea Nitrate is something i haven't yet made though and will be interesting; would this be useful with HNO3?.
It don't really matter about the yield (i got me a lifetime supply of piss) http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
How much sodium carbonate should i add? Untill it stops bubbling right?
Could i use Methylated Spirits instead of alcohol?

Lagen August 13th, 2001, 01:25 AM

If you use urea to scavenge the noxious gases you should bubble a little air through the solution. It works much better. Urea Nitrate is a very easygoing stuff on all aspects.
One of my favourites. It doesn't work for removing NOx, if that's what you mean. As to the sodium carbonate, I would suggest a stoichiometric amount (equivalent to the
amount of nitric acid), or slightly less. You definitely cannot use methylated spirits (whatever it is, if it has a high percentage of methanol then urea will not dissolve much in it).
I think you should make sure there is not much water in the (ethyl)alcohol. It might seem beneficial - to dissolve any Na2CO3 or urea nitrate left over. But the water on the
other hand will dissolve a lot of NaNO3 which will coprecipitate during evaporation, so you will have to estimate the amount of impurities (which will be mostly NaNO3) from
the first step and recrystallize a second time from warm water. That should yield you a very pure product.

mongo blongo August 13th, 2001, 02:33 PM

Thanx for the info dude! I think i will use a small excess of HNO3.
Is the alcohol denatured?

Anthony August 13th, 2001, 07:41 PM

Methylated spirits is ethanol denatured with methanol. IIRC it's 11% methanol.

tom haggen November 1st, 2004, 11:02 PM

Sodium carbonate is just as insoluble in CH3CH2OH as potassium carbonate.

Zeitgeist November 2nd, 2004, 01:36 AM

Methylated spirit that we have over here, is typically 95% EtOH, and the remainder 5% being MeOH and denaturants

newdle November 2nd, 2004, 10:34 AM

Zeitgeist "Methylated spirit that we have over here, is typically 95% EtOH, and the remainder 5% being MeOH and denaturants"
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You are kidding, right?
I think you forget that we are in the land of the aboriginals, infamous for drinking 'methylated spirits'.
Due to being unable to control this factor, the recepie was changed, as the government did not want to be held responsible for death. Think about it. One bottle is plenty to
send a person blind, yet i'm positive some people have drunk 100's of bottles in thier lifetime.

Instead, ethanol is azeotroped with methyl isobutyl ketone (hexone), which is not so immediately damaging like methanol is.

[Useless] On an interesting but sad note, in the Northern Territory in some outback pubs, methylated spirits is actually able to be bought 'pre-chilled'.

FUTI November 2nd, 2004, 03:21 PM

well industry use ammonia and carbon-dioxide to make ammonium-carbamate (don't remember is it posible to make this in home lab, but if you find that this require high
pressure forget it) which is then heated AFAIR to make urea...as for the other things mentioned here it can work but I don't know does it worth the effort. Happy

Mumble November 11th, 2004, 08:57 PM

There is a method in vogel to make it(p, 441). There is a slight problem though. It requires Sodium Cyanate. The most practical way to obtain this is heating NaOH and Urea.

2NaCNO + (NH4)2SO4 > 2NH4CNO + Na2SO4

NH4CNO > NH3 + HNC=O > HN=C(OH)NH2 > CO(NH2)2

It may not be the most practical proceedure to make urea, as urea is basically a precursor.

FireFly November 12th, 2004, 12:12 AM

I thought this might be of some help...
"Urea forms tetragonal prisms, which develop an odor of ammonia. Urea has a cooling saline taste. It has a melting point of 132.7 Celsius, and it decomposes above 133
Celsius into ammonia, biuret, and cyanuric acid. 1 gram dissolves in 1 milliliter of water. Urea is soluble in alcohol, and glycerol. It is also soluble in acids, forming salts. Urea is
insoluble in ether, and chloroform. Water solutions of urea decompose on heating yielding ammonia and carbon dioxide. Urea is widely used in fertilizers, and is a readily
available commercial chemical."

10fingers November 14th, 2004, 02:23 PM

Urea is a common fertilizer, it's available from most agricultural suppliers for around $8.00 for a 50 lb bag. It's called 60-0-0. It's very easy to purify by crystallizing from

Mendeleev December 31st, 2004, 01:21 AM

I believe urea can be made from ammonium nitrate. I think it involves heating an intimate mixture of ammonium nitrate with an alkali carbonate in a crucible to high
temperature. I may be mistaken though...

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Luminous solution...

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Rusl July 18th, 2001, 01:00 PM

Whether somebody did(made) experiences and knows recipes of preparation of a solution luminous in darkness? Help please! Also it is desirable, that the solution shined during
long time. Beforehand I than.

(MORON! What the FUCK does this have to do with High EXPLOSIVES?! NOTHING! Moving topic, deleting user.

PS. Hadn't noticed this at first, but you also posted this in the misc section too. DOUBLE POSTING! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/mad.gif ASSHOLE! NBK2000)

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited July 18, 2001).]

Rhadon July 18th, 2001, 02:03 PM

Since luminescent solutions aren't high explosives you're in the wrong section :-)
Though, to answer you question: It's quite hard to make phosphorescent compounds or things like that from chemicals that are easy to get. But you could buy luminol from a
chemical supplier. Add H2O2 to it and you'll get a nice chemiluminescence.

deezs July 18th, 2001, 02:50 PM

Luminescence. Interesting topic.
Needs hardly avaliable chemicals.
I know diferent methods. I'm too lazy to translate them now. I write down the luminous chemicals I know, if you can get them, I will write the recipes.

luminol (5-aminophthalhydrazide)
A fuckin expensive indicator, in Hungary(Eastern-Europe), 5 grams costs about 25 dollars. (Not mistyped! It's in the prize of gold) Btw. I know, how to syntesise it. You can find
it in this book:
Louis F. Fieser: Organic experiments 1956 Raytheon Education Company, Lexington, Massachusetts (chapter 45)
to this synthesis you will need:
1g 3-nitro-ftalic acid
3 cm3 8% hidrazine solution
3 cm3 triethylenglicol
3g NaHSO3.2H2O
the yield will be about .5g This way you can get it far cheeper.
This will really produce light in the dark.

I don't know much about this one, just this is an other indicator. It produces blue light, by which you can even read for about 10-15 minutes.

pirogallol (don't know if it is it's correct name)
It produces red light for 5-6 minutes, then the folution will become hot, and sometimes it comes out from the erlenmeyer flask.
I haven't foud the synthesis yet.

fluorescein (C20H12O5)
red crystals with green iridescence
Made by heating phtalic anhydride with resorcinol. In alkaline solution it shows intense green fluorescence. It is used for determining the route of water supplies, leakages. This
will not light in the dark, but if light falls on it, it has a nice color
(I have made only this one. Yet.)

an inorganic fluorescens compound
Na2BO7.10H2O (borax)

white phosphorous

troboluminescens compound:
This one produces light, when you rub it with a glass rod.

The easiest:
ZnS is said to be luminescens too, when it contains some CuS.
To make this, dissolve ZnSO4 in water, add a few drops of CuSO4 solution, and (NH4)2S, or Na2S.

As you see, if you need a luminous solution, for practical use (instead of flaslight), you have better to buy it.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

Rusl July 19th, 2001, 12:32 PM

Yes, at me all chemical substances are and luminol, except for lucigenin. Send please, all recipes on luminescence and synthesis luminol. Mine e-mail: rusl@uni.udm.ru.
Beforehand I thank!

deezs July 19th, 2001, 02:51 PM

I post my answer here too, if someone else is interested in the topic. I know the mods and the frequent posters doesn't like topics, which are not about explosives, or it's
precursors. But I belive, who loves explosives, that likes interesting chemical experiments too.


In a big test tube (20x150 mm) heat 1g 3-nitro-phtalic acid and 2 cm3 8% hidrazin solution, till the solid material dissolves. Add 3 cm3 triethylen-glycol, and fix the test tube in
a vertical position above the flame. Insert a thermomether, and a glass tube, which is connected to a vacumpump. Boil the solution (110-130 deg. C), and distill the water
down. Let the temperature rise fast (in 3-4 minutes) to 215 deg. C. Take away the flame under the test tube, check the time, and for 2 minutes hold the temperature between
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215 and 220 deg. C with heating occasionally. Take out the suction pipe, and allow the liquid to cool down to 100 deg. C. (sometimes crystals of the product precipitate) Bring
15cm3 dest. water to boil, and add to the solution. Cool it down under the tap, and filter the yellow product.
The dry weight of the product should be about 2,7g, but you needn't dry it.
Put the yellow crystals to the test tube (don't wash it after the first reaction). Add 5 cm3 10% NaOH solution, and 3g NaHSO3.2H2O. Boil the solution for 5 minutes
(somethimes the product precipitates). Add 2 cm3 acetic acid, cool under the tap, and filter out the luminol. Let the liquid stand for the night, next morning an other fraction of
crystals (.1-.2g)should precipitate.
The dry weight of the first precipitated luminol should be about .2-.3g. Dissolve this in 10 cm3 10% NaOH solution, and add 90 cm3 water. This is A solution.
B solution: mix 20 cm3 3% K3[Fe(CN)6] solution with 20 cm3 3% H2O2 and 160 cm3 water.
To 25cm3 A solution add 175 cm3 water, and in a drak place pour this solution with B solution to a big erlenmeyer flask. Shake the flask, and add some lye to increase the
fom Louis F. Fieser: Organic Experiments, translated by deezs
now I'm bored with translation.
Are you interested in the other compounds(b,c,d,e,g) too? Perhaps tomorrow I post the other experiments too.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

deezs July 21st, 2001, 11:25 AM

here are the other recipes:

In a big erlenmeyer flask to 50 cm3 dest water add 4-5 cm3 NaOH solution, 2-3 cm3 0.05% lucigenin solution, and 3-4 cm3 H2O2. Shake the flask, and add 40-50 cm3
ethanol. The liquid starts to produce turquoise blue light, for about 10-15 minutes. You can even read by this light.
lucigenin: dimethyl-diacridilium-nitrate
If you can draw the structure of this molecule, please send it.
(I think this is an acridine derivative. Acridin looks like antracene, just in the central ring there is a nitrogen, in stead of a carbon.)

In a 200 cm3 erlenmeyer flask add 10 cm3 boiled, and cooled dest water. In this dissolve 1 g pirogallol. To this add 20 cm3 40% K2CO3 solution and 10 cm3 40% HCHO
solution. Shake the flask, and add 30 cm3 30% H2O2. The liquid starts to produce red light, for 1-2 minutes it becomes lighter and lighter. It ends after 4-5 minutes. After the
reaction the liquid becomes hot, and starts to foam. Then add some water, to stop the reaction.
pirogallol is 1,2,3-trihidroxy-benzene

In a dry test tube mix 0.3g phtalic anhydride and 0.4g resorcinol (1,3-dihydroxy-benzene). Add 5 drops of concentrated sulphuric acid. Heat it above a small flame, till you get
dark brown liquid. After it cools down add to it 1 cm3 NH3 solution, and pour it to 1 liter water. It produces yellowish-green fluorescence.
warning! Don't use more sulphuric acid, because it will corrode the paint, formed in the reaction.
0,1 mg fluorescein in 1 l water is still yellowish. It is used for determining the route of water supplies, leakages.
If you need the structure, I can draw it.

inorganic compound
Mix 5g CaO with 4g S, and heat it in a covered porcelain melting pot for 10-15 minutes. To the cooled compound add 0.5g Na2SO4, 0.54g Na2B4O7.10H2O 0.2g CaF2 and 1.5
cm3 Bi(NO3)3 solution. (preparing of the solution: dissolve 0,25g Bi(NO3)3 in 50 cm3 ethanol, and add concentrated hydrochloric acid, till the solution becomes clear) Mix it
well, cover the melting pot and heat over a hot flame for 25-30 minutes. In a dark place light the cooled compound with UV light. If it not produces any light, you need hotter
flame, perhaps a blow torch.

triboluminescens compound
Mix 5g ZnS with 1g MnSO4 or MnCO3, and heat in a melting pot for 25-30 minutes over a very hot flame. (or in a melting pot oven) After it cooled down, suspend in some
water, and filter out the precipitation. Dry it on 120-150 deg C. In a porcelain mortar rub it with a glass stirring rod. It will produce light. Don't know the clour.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

Mr Cool July 28th, 2001, 11:57 AM

I've got a good method, but it's a little messy http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
You will need:

A kilo of fireflies,
A big glass beaker,
A drill,
Some thick wire.

Bend the wire into a T-shape, and fix it into the drill. Put the fireflies into the beaker, put in the wire and turn on the drill! This will make a glowing green paste, which is also a
great salad dressing http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Actually, one (Polynesian?) tribe did/does collect luminescent crustaceans from the sea and crush them to use as blue glowing face-paint for rituals etc. It glowed bright blue for
quite a long time.

That triboluminescent compound sounds interesting. Rubies will flash bright red if you hit them with a hammer, quartz also emits greenish light when banged hard.
That luminol experiment also needs to have the correct pH. I have a recipe somewhere... no, I've looked and I've deleted it. I do remember that ammonium carbonate is
added to raise the pH.

It's easy to grow a culture of Photobacterium Luminescens (sp of last word?). Get a fresh, salt-water fish and suspend it in a jar of cold, boiled sea water so that half the
(dead) fish is submerged. After a week in the fridge, to slow the growth of other bacteria, take it into a dark room. When your eyes have adjusted, you should see lots of little
colonies of glowing bateria. You can grow these in a salt-water medium with added nutrients. If you have it in a sealed, narrow glass tube then the glowing will stop after a
few hours or so since the bacteria aren't getting any oxygen. Invert the tube, and the air bubble at the top will flow throught the culture, causing a burst of green light. A
250mL flask of an active culture is easily enough to read by.

-A- July 28th, 2001, 04:56 PM

hey mr cool, but in what places and climates do this bacteria grows??? it sound like a cool bio-chemistry experiment...

nbk2000 July 28th, 2001, 09:52 PM

Want to try something really fun?

Get a sample of rewd tide plankton, culture that, and expose live clams to the water. Process the clam livers to extract the toxin, and voila!

You're now the proud possesor of saxitoxin, a paralytic nuerotoxin that kills it's victims in less than a minute, with blood pouring out of every orfice. Looks like ebola. And it only
takes a milligram or two.

Was developed for the CIA microinoculator gun.

There's some other toxic critter in the gulf waters that causes skin sores and permanent memory loss. It's airborne too. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

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-A- July 29th, 2001, 03:24 AM
And that "critter" is...Pfiesteria Piscicida.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited July 29, 2001).]

Gab July 29th, 2001, 02:23 PM

Apparently, you can have "always on" fireflies if you give them nitric oxide.

More info at <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1412000/1412104.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1412000/1412104.stm</


deezs July 31st, 2001, 04:04 PM

Back to inorganic luminescence!
I have found the following recipe:
Pour saturated NaCl solution into a test tube, untill it is half full. Add ccHCl by the wall of the test tube, till it is almost full. Insert a rubber stopper, and go to a dark place.
Shake it. It should produce blue light.
I don't know, why, or how should this work. I have tried it, but no sucess. Any idea?

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

Tony Montana July 31st, 2001, 09:06 PM

Heres a good link:

deezs August 3rd, 2001, 02:10 PM

Good page, with nice pics, but contains no recipes.
Anyway thanx!

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

Tony Montana August 3rd, 2001, 09:06 PM

No recipes???
Did you look:
All linked from the same page, showing mainly luminol reactions. Guess some people are just hard to please, here, this one is not about luminating chemicals but I promise it
will impress the tuffest critics:
More quality links brought to you by Tony The King Of Kewl Montana http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Mr Cool August 4th, 2001, 11:21 AM

-A-: the bacteria grows in many places, possibly ALL saltwater. I know it grows in the Atlantic, since I've got some from the West coast of England. No warm, tropical waters

Boob Raider April 11th, 2003, 02:08 PM

I was able to order Vibrio fischeri from carolina but they don't have V. phosphoreum or dinoflagellates etc. Anyways I am going fishing ..... again .... soon :rolleyes: .
Can Xylene be oxidized by K persulfate to Phthalic acid, I know KMnO4 does in an H+ soln, but I can't get that :( . Does anyone have any recipies on nitrating phthalic acid on
the 3rd Carbon and what function does the triethylene glycol serve, can it be subsituted by something commonly available.

Marvin April 11th, 2003, 10:28 PM

One of my favourate subjects is chemiluminescence. Several places in the US sell dinoflagilates, I havnt found anyone here yet though. Produce light only when shaken and
only at night, they photosynthesize during the day and they need sterile conditions to last more than a few weeks at home. One of the confusing aspects of the literiture on this
is that the light producing molecules of all biologicals is called 'luciferin' regardless of its structure.

Pthalic acid nitrites very easily, and care must be taken so it doesnt get out of control, the 3 product is the majority one usually. I dont have this information to hand becuase
my chosen synthesis was from napthalene to a-nitronapthalene, to 3-nitropthallic acid. If its a nitro group on the napthalene its the oppasit ring thats broken by oxidation, if its
reduced to amine first, the amine ring is the one that goes. I wasnt able to find a reasonable method for making hydrazine hydrate though, so I never finished the attempt.
The synth Id use from there is the huntress et al method, which currently isnt to hand either though digging up just the reference details I can do tomorrow. I was working on
this some time ago, so the information will be buiried.

30% peroxide and conc hyperchlorite solution when mixed produces volumes of oxygen in the singlet excited state. This forms an excited dimer (A true eximer, unlike so called
eximer lasers) which decays in releasing deep red light. NIR side of visible Red. Ive tried this with 6% hydrogen peroxide and 5% hyperchlorite bleach with about 10min dark
adapted eyes and saw nothing at all, but Ive talked to people that have done it with proper reagents and confirm it does work. The reaction might be a tad violent, Ive read a
safer method is to bubble chlorine into alkaline peroxide solution.

Luminol should be able to be made pretty cheaply with some effort, the oxalate esters are rather more spectacular and should be synthasisable in an advanced home lab, they
also have spectacular street prices. I seem to recall another thread with slightly more information on those.

irish April 12th, 2003, 04:01 AM

Mr cool wrote
"That triboluminescent compound sounds interesting. Rubies will flash bright red if you hit them with a hammer, quartz also emits greenish light when banged hard"

quartz also flashes orange, red or yellow, some bits don't display it as well as others. I have a small shappire mine on my land and it looks good belting a pick thro hard packed
quartz and gravel under ground.
I've never found a use for this property of quartz but it is pretty :D .

Mr Cool April 12th, 2003, 12:20 PM

Maybe we'll find a use one day, Irish :) .
Marvin, I've seen a photo of chlorine being bubbled through strong hydrogen peroxide solution on the web somewhere, and it looked quite bright. But perhaps special camers
were used.
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Rhadon April 12th, 2003, 03:04 PM
Mr. Cool, chlorine being bubbled through a solution of NaOH in H2O2 gives a nice red luminescence when the chlorine comes into contact with the liquid. This is due to the
formation of singlet oxygen. I tried it, and it works really well. Perhaps that is what you're referring to?

Leadazide April 16th, 2003, 06:53 AM

Deezs said
"c.) pirogallol (don't know if it is it's correct name)"

The correct name is pyrogallol.

rooster April 20th, 2003, 02:43 PM

Rhadon: do you have any ratios/concentrations of your method with H2O2, NaOH and Cl2? Sounds very interesting, especially since the precursors are so easily available.

Rhadon April 23rd, 2003, 04:53 PM

No, I don't have any ratios at hand. Perhaps a search on the web will yield some results, but the reaction shouldn't be that sensitive to the amounts used. IIRC, I did just add
an excess of NaOH (it didn't dissolve completely) to 30% H2O2 and bubble chlorine through the solution.

a_bab May 12th, 2003, 05:47 PM

Just found a link here (http://www.pc.chemie.uni-siegen.de/pci/versuche/english/v27-3.html) with the ratios and pictures.

Marvin May 14th, 2003, 08:20 PM

Looks good but the last part of the explanation is wrong. The energy for 1 molecule in the singlet excited state produced by this reaction is equivalent to a line in the IR
spectrum. Normally singlet to singlet transitions are fast, but this particular transition is highly forbidden for electric dipole interactions, you only get a weak line in the IR due to
magnetic dipole interactions. The result is you get a high enough population of excited molecules, that eximers form. When a complex of 2 singlet oxygen molecules loses all
the energy in 1 transition, you get the red light.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Various Questions.

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Q August 15th, 2001, 04:09 PM

W ould silica powder work for d ehyrating sulfuric acid{I know it su cks up water}?,I have some purple drain cleaner{Drain Boss
85%+} and want to get nitrating.Boiling is too m uch of a pain in the arse .
Also what is det. velocity of Double base Sm o k e l e s s p o w d e r s ?
Finally would a m ix of AN+ALum inium paint form an AP sensitive m ixture?

Mr Cool August 15th, 2001, 04:31 PM

If you're talk ing about silica gel, then no. H2SO4 is m uch m ore dehydrating than silica gel, so nothing will happen. O rdinary
silica will do nothing at all. Boiling is sim ple and can get it pure.
I'd guess VoD of DBSP's to be a r o u n d 5 0 0 0 m /s to 7000 m/s, depending on NG content, density, how nitrated the NC is, what
detonator you use...
Yes it would be AP sensitive if you did it right - there are already posts on sensitising AN.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Megalomania, please

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deezs August 16th, 2001, 04:19 PM

First of all, congratulations to your site. It is far the best collection of useful recipes. But.. I have a question: how many recipes have you tried yourself? (in your dreams of
Now I'm interested in making Lead 2,4,6-Trinitro-3-Oxybenzoate. From your writing, it seems to be a good choice. The chemicals are the easiest to get, and it is simple to
make. These are not the most important reasons, why I want to make it. You wrote, that it is not so shock sensitive, but explodes on contact with flame. This is what I need. I
don't want to use AP or HMTD or Hg fulminate as a primer for my HE (picric acid).
So: I've tried to make some, from this stuff. I dissolved 2,4g Pb(NO3)2 in 50 ml water, heated to 90 deg C, and added 2.16g Na-benzoate, dissolved in some water. A lot of
white precipitate appeared. It looks like benzoic acid. (Tomorrow I will thest it's melting point.)
The recipe says: "sodium benzoate, prepared by neutralizing 2 g of benzoic acid with 0.6 g of sodium hydroxide"
If you calculate the molar masses, you will see, that some benzoic acid remains unneutralized this way.
Is the recipe correcet? Where did you get it? Who is A. Kovache? Is he from Romania?

thanx in advance!

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

megalomania August 16th, 2001, 04:54 PM

The lab is written for those with less than sophisticated scales. If you have a balance that can measure out the additional 0.055092 g, then by all means do so. In this case the
possibility of error in allowing a strong base to enter the reaction may be bad.

My attorney has advised me to exercise my Fifth Amendment rights on the former question.

I know not where Dr. Kovache hails from.

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

deezs August 17th, 2001, 02:04 PM

Shit! I forgot, that I gave back the thermometer, I used for melting point tests. My other thermomether has a scale only to 105 deg C.
I'm sure, that the white precipitation is benzoic acid. It dissolves in NaOH.
What's missing from this recipe???
When you add a salt of an (almost) unsoluble acid to a solution, which is acidic, the acid will precipitate.
Anybody tried this? Or heared about somebody, who knows a guy, who made it?
Should I boil this suspension for a while? I don't think, that would help.
In an other topic, somebody asked, how will be trinitro benzoic acid from benzoic acid in aqueous solution. Please search the original recipe! Something is missing here!

About mesuring: I have allready used an analitical scale. (It is sure, that I will have acess to it this winter) It was interesting to watch on the led, how my fingerprint evaporates
from the glass, which I placed onto the scale.
I just wanted to know, if it is important to make the Na-benzoate solution from benzoic acid with neutralizing, or is it good to make from Na-benzoate. I was thinking about, if
the solvation of benzoic acid goes as the solvation of I2 in KI solution, and that few milligrams of benzoic acid has some catalitic effect. Now I don't think my theory was
The recipe doesn't say anything about white precipitation, but sais: "Evaporate the mixture on a water bath to a small volume while the liquid still remains clear."
So, I'm sure something is not correct.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

megalomania August 17th, 2001, 04:15 PM

The information is apparently quite wrong. Check out my post in the High Explosives section here: http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000425.html

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > W h a t s h e x a m ine called in Norway?

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View Full Version : Whats hexamine called in Norway?

anarkisten_83 August 17th, 2001, 04:08 PM

Hi,I live in Norway, and its hard to find alm ost ANY chem ical com p o u n d h e r e ! C o u l d s o m e o n e p l e a s e h e l p m e with the brand
n a m e t h e y s e l l h e x a m i n e u n d er here in norway
? *sorry for my bad e nglish*

Berserker August 17th, 2001, 09:48 PM

In Europe, I think they call it "methenam ine". There are m any o ther nam es for it too, urotropine a n d h e x a m e t h y l e n e t e t r a m i n e
(its full chem ical nam e ) a r e t h e o n l y o n e s I c a n t h i n k o f o f f t h e t o p o f m y h e a d , b u t h e r e a r e s o m e f r o m M e g a ' s s i t e :
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">1,3,5,7-tetraazatricyclo[,7]decane; aceto hmt; Am inoform ; Am m o f o r m ;
a m m o n i o f o r m a l d e h y d e ; C y s t a m i n ; C y s t o g e n ; f o r m a m i n e ; F o r m i n ; H E X A ; H e x a f o r m ; h e x a m ethyle n a m i n e ;
h e x a m e t h y l e n e a m i n e ; h e x a m e t h y l e n e t e t r a a m i n e ; h e x a m ethylene tetram ine; he x a m e t h y l e n e t r i a m i n e ; h e x a m i n e ;
h e x i l m ethyle n a m i n e ; H i p r e x ; H M T ; H M T A ; M a n d e l a m ine; m e t h a m i n ; m e t h e n e a m ine; preparation af; resotropin; 1,3,5,7-
tetraazaadamantane; tetraazatricyclo[,7)]decane; UREX; Uritone; Uroqid; Urotropin</font>

Good luck!

Teck August 20th, 2001, 06:01 AM

In Europe its called ESBIT.
I t s s o l d a s h e a t i n g f u el, in m ost sporting stores and surpluses.

Also m ilitary surplus has them as round tablets the size of a 5 cent. its sold in round white tubes thats here in the U.S.

In Europe its sold in Orange p acks like 3.5"x2.5".

anarkisten_83 August 22nd, 2001, 07:23 AM

I was just wondering...Is there any other brands than "Esbit" That contains m ethe n a m i n e ? C a u s e I ' v e s e e n s o m e o t h e r s o l i d
fuel tablets...*just wo n d e r i n g *

Hex August 22nd, 2001, 09:25 AM

Buy som e. It should have a faint am m onia sort of sm ell (but m ilder). If it dissolves in water, and it's a heating tablet, it's
alm o s t c e r t a i n t o b e h e x a m ine. O ther (petroleum based) tablets won't dissolve.

Fingerless August 28th, 2001, 06:34 PM

Most decent hobby shops carry them , ask for them , they are used in miniature steam e n g i n e s .

qwerty S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 09:02 AM

I've bought the esbit that is sold nowadays and it doesn't dissolve in water, what could it be

SATA NIC S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 06:55 PM

t h e h e x a m ine i get is from the arm y , p u r e h e x a m ine heating tablets. they don't dissolve quickly in water, but the boxes are
waterproofed , so i'm a s s u m ing they disintegrate over tim e. what else would be sold in solid fuel tablets? in australia, there are
other brands, which burn with a much different sm ell. are there any chem ical tests for hexam i n e ? ?

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > A quick question on nitronapthalenes:

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Mr Cool August 19th, 2001, 01:22 PM

W e l l , m a k i n g t h e m o n o n i t r o c o m p o u n d i s e a s y . W hen I do this I get a roughly 90% yield of deep yellow/orange MNN.
T h e s e c o n d s t e p I s e e i n e v e r y p r o c e d u r e d i d n ot chang e this product! So I thought, "Fuck that step, I'll do the last one twice."
I figured it should work, and I *think* it has. I got a light yellow, grainy product the first time, but it didn't change the secon d
tim e! When I added the MNN to the nitrating solution (40mL of H2SO4, 45g of KNO3 for the MNN from 5g of napthalene, so
quite a large excess of acids I believe) in sm all am o u n t s a t a b o u t 3 5 * C , i t m e l t e d d u e t o t h e e x t r a h e a t f r o m the reaction. I
was stirring vigorously, and the orangy blobs of MNN quickly changed to yellow grains. During the addition the tem perature was
not allowed to go above 40*C, it was at about 35*C for most of the time. When it had all been added (sorry, I wasn't timing
how long it took), I left it for a further 15 m i n u t e s a n d t h e n d u m ped it into 200mL of cold water. The yellow grains sank in the
m urky greenish yellow liquid.
W h e n I u s e d these grains in the last step, they did not appear to change.

So what I'd like to know is: what colour are DNN and TeNN, what are their melting points etc etc. An ything that will help me to
determ ine what I have here.

Thanks for any help you can give!

Lagen August 19th, 2001, 07:01 PM

I don't know the colors, sorry http://theforum .virtualave .net/ubb /sm ilies/frown.gif All I fou nd is this:

1,3-DNN: m.p.:148C, b.p.:sublim es, ins. H2O, sol. EtOH, ace

1,5-DNN: m.p.:219C, b.p.:sublim es, density:1 .586[20C], ins. H2O , slight.sol. EtOH,ace, very sol. ether
1,8-DNN: m.p.:173C, b.p.:44 5C [decomposes], ins. H2O, slight.sol. EtOH,bz, sol. ace
1,3,6,8-TeNN: m .p.:2 07C, b.p.:explodes, density:1.64[0C], very sol. bz,HOAc

Obviously the various DNN isom e r s m a ke things a bit complicate d...

wantsomfet August 19th, 2001, 07:04 PM

alph a-nitronaphtalene: bright-yellow needles, soluble in m ost organic solvents. Melting point: 60 - 61 C.
Dinitronaphtalenes: tiny grey-yellow crystals, could be slightly red if NO x is present, soluble in acetone, toluene, acetic acid,
terpentine, b enzene, not very good in ethanol & ethylether. Melting point between 140 and 160 C, depending on m ixture of
isom eres.
1,3-dinitrona phtalene: 114 C
1,5-dinitrona phtalene: 215 - 216 C
1,8-dinitrona p h t a l e n e : 1 7 0 - 1 7 2 C
Trinotronaphtalenes: tiny, bright grey-brown crystals. Not very soluble in organic solvents. Melting point between 115 and 160
C , d e p e n d i n g o n m i x t u r e o f i s o m eres.
1,3,5-trinitronaphtalene: 123 C
1,3,8-trinitronaphtalene: 218 C
1,4,8-trinitronaphtalene: 147 C
1,2,5-trinitronaphtalene: 112 - 113 C
Tetranitronaphtalenes: tiny sand colored crytals, not very soluble in organic solvents, but som e iso meres (1,3,5,8-) are readily
soluble in acetone.
alph a-tetranitronaphtalene: 259 C
beta-tetranitronaphta lene: 203 C (1,3,6,8-)
g a m ma-tetranitronap htalene: 194 - 195 C (1,3,5,8- & 1,4,5,7-)
delta-tetranitronaphtalene: decomposition at 270 C (1,2,5,8- & 1,4,5,6- & 1,3,5,7-))

quick & dirty, too m uch work to write it all down now. Perhaps som e other m ember who has the Urb a n s k i b o o ks c o uld p ost
s o m e m ore info.

for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://ka ngaroooo.cjb.net)

Lagen August 19th, 2001, 07:44 PM

wantsomfet: I have looked in the Urbanski books, and there is nothing more, than what you have written (as far as colours
a n d t e m pera tures go). There is a major discrepancy between our posts in the m.p. of 1,3-DNN, and I think Mr.Urbanski was
w r o n g h e r e . T h e C R C b o o k s t a t e s 1 4 8 C f o r t h e p u r e s u b s t a n c e , a n d m y S i g m a-Aldrich catalogue states 14 6-148C for the
97% pure product. I respect and value Mr.U rbanski's wo rk, but in his tim es a lot of the things he writes abo ut was not
completely explored. Note the "uncertain location" of two nitrogroups in one of the TeNN isomers.
Mr C ool: After going through the few pages of Urbanski on nitronaphthalenes, I m ust say this is re ally mindboggling stuff.
Nothing to envy, so I wish you good luck!

Mr Cool August 20th, 2001, 08:23 AM

Thanks for all your help.
Now I have to decide if it's grey-yellow or sand coloured! It doesn't look like eithe r to me.
The closest colour m atch that I can think of are the wrappers from Mars ice-cream s! The wrapper is probably the sam e colour
everywhere in the world.
I would have thought that there was enough acid m ixture to nitrate it to the tetranitrocom pound, but I want som ething a bit
m ore solid than guess work. I'll see how it behaves in a cetone, and try to find its m.p.

wantsomfet August 20th, 2001, 12:35 PM

Lagen: I think you are right about the 1,3-DNN, but since the product m ostly consists of the 1,5- & 1,8-DNN isom eres, it
shouldn't be the biggest problem.

Here's a pic that could help a bit with nitronaphtalenes (concentrations of HNO 3/H2SO4/H2O & obtained product):
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http://internettrash.com /users/altreal/frame/U1-210.gif

for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://ka ngaroooo.cjb.net)

Mr Cool August 20th, 2001, 02:58 PM

So if the num ber is twice as close to H2SO4 as HNO3, then you'll need twice as much H2SO4 as HNO3, right? In other words,
the ratios of HNO3:H2SO4:H2O are 1/(the distance from t h e n u m ber to the chem ical form ula)?
That's the best way I can think to describe it, hopefully you'll understand what I'm trying to say. This theoretical example
m ight help:

e.g. im agine that number 5 is 3cm away from "H2O", 2cm away from "HNO3" and 1cm away from "H2SO4" on the diagram .
Therefore the ratio of H2O :HNO3:H2SO4 is 1/3:1/2:1/1, which m e a n s 1 8 .2% H2O , 27.3% HNO3 and 54.5% H2SO4 in this
e x a m ple. Is that right?

Anyway, thanks for th e diagram s!

Dave Angel D e c e m ber 3rd, 2003, 02:50 PM

wantsomfet, (or for that m atter anyone who understands the dia gram s better than I do), when it is said that the
"con centratio ns" of th e reactants is shown, does this literally mean moles of reactant per dm ^3 of reagent m ix?

If not, I'm guessing the units of reactant, used to draw the diagrams were either: m oles, grams or m L. Each of which used in a
hypothetical calculation of 20mL H2O / 50m L H2SO 4 / 39mL HNO3, gives differen t ratios of reactant depending on which unit
t h e a m ounts of reactants used were converted into.

If anyone can shed any light on this it would be very useful in designing a new synthesis for TeNN, I'm sure you will agree.

Alternatively you could point o ut if I've m ade a blindingly obviou s m istak e and tell me that the units don't m atter, but I just
can't see tha t they don't at the mom ent.

Microtek D e c e m ber 4th, 2003, 06:49 AM

The diagrams very likely show the constituents of the m ixed acids in % (w/w) so the point in the exact m iddle of the triangle
m e a n s 3 3 g H N O 3 , 3 3 g H 2 S O 4 a n d 3 3 g H2O per 99 g nitration mix ( in total, so rem e m ber the water content of yo ur nitric
and sulfuric acids ). Sim ilarly the point on the middle of the lower edge o f the tria n g l e m e a n s 5 0 g H 2 S O 4 a n d 5 0 g H N O 3 p e r
100 g nitration mix. What it doesn't tell you, is how m uch substrate ( naphthalene or dinitronaphthalene ) to use.

Rosco Bodine D e c e m ber 4th, 2003, 09:56 AM

There is a Swiss nitration method which uses nitration catalysts
to achieve th e tetra a n d e v e n t h e p e n t a n i t r a t e d n a p h t h a l i n e
u n d e r l e s s e x t r e m e conditions of acid concentration than usual .

See GB501034

Another pate nt which describes higher nitrations of arom atics

u s i n g m ilder concentrations of acids while azeotroping water
from the nitration mixture is interesting also . Even TNT from
ordinary concentrated nitric is reportedly produced in high yield .

See US2435314

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > CrO3

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View Full Version : CrO3

Lagen July 24th, 2001, 11:45 PM

A BIG SORRY to deezs for "stealing" the topic! This substance has been discussed to some extent on the "brake fluid" thread,
but I've not found a method for its preparation in anhydrous, crystalline form, that would work for me. I wanted to start
discussion on it and at the same time avoid pissing off the mods by posting off-topic!


"1. A corrosive, oxidizing acid, H2CrO4, occurring only as salts or in solution. 2. The anhydride of chromic acid, CrO3, a
purplish crystalline material that reacts explosively with reducing agents and is used in chromium plating, as an oxidizing
agent, and to color glass and rubber."

Appearance : Flakes of red violet color

Density: 2.7 (g/cm3) at 20C, bulk Density: 1.0 (g/cm3) (loose)
pH: approx. 1 at concentration of 10 g/l at 20C
Melting Point: 197C, boiling point: 250C (decomposes)
Solubility in Water: 62 % by weight at 20C (this really screws it up)
Solubility in other solvents, qualitative: N/A

The suggested method for preparation of H2CrO4 in solution:

"Dissolve 140g of technical grade sodium dichromate dihydrate in approximately 100 ml of water. Add two litres of technical
grade 98% sulfuric acid to a 4-5 litre glass beaker that is sitting in a cold water bath in a fume cupboard. Carefully stir the acid
gently and pour a few mls of the dichromate solution slowly into the acid. Keep repeating the addition every few seconds -
after the previous dose has been dispersed. As long as the stirring is gentle and continuous, little or no splattering should
occur, but the solution will become quite warm."

I thought about three possible ways of making it: The method previously suggested by deezs. My failed attempt: I made a
saturated solution of K2Cr2O7 in water, the solution was saturated at 10C so I used 15g dichromate and 200ml water. I didn't
have enough ice, so I placed the beaker in a little water in a pyrex dish and put about 1.5kg NH4NO3 and 1kg urea in it. The
temperature was maintained at about -3C. I added 50ml of very concentrated H2SO4, but, besides a little dichromate, almost
nothing precipitated. Some very tiny red crystals appeared, but that could have been a few mg. I also tried the behavior of the
dichromate to acetone, but it reacted to produce a yellow precipitate (potassium chromate). A method similar to above but with
K2Cr2O7. This is often reported in encyclopaedias and the like to produce CrO3 "crystals". I placed 20ml of concentrated
H2SO4 in a 250ml beaker in a dish of water. I stirred in 5g of finely powdered K2Cr2O7. At first solution turned yellow (like
chromate, but it wasn't), then a very deep orange-brown color. The dichromate just kept dissolving and no purple crystals were
formed. Then I poured in a few cc of conc. K2Cr2O7 soln. acidified with H2SO4, mainly to supply a bit of water (stupid idea! -
but I got away with it). Well just a little more dichromate dissolved and that was it. The soln turned a bit more purple color, so
H2CrO4 is present in solution. Using the above suggested procedure followed by evaporation. I've not yet tried this. Na2SO4
will coprecipitate and I don't know the solubility of CrO3 in sulfuric acid, so it might not work at all. Sorry guys, I'd do some
calculations first before asking, but all my data say nothing about quantitative solubilities in H2SO4!

I also remembered one thing that might be related. About 10 years ago - back in my silver-prospecting days - I kept a small
screw-cap vial of a strong K2Cr2O7 solution in conc. sulfuric acid. I used a drop of this solution to distinguish between pure
silver and its ore argentite. Then for a reason, I decided to quit and gave up the whole silver business idea, and the vial
ended up somewhere with other junk. About 5 years ago I stumbled over it and noticed a strange thing: Just under the rim of
the screw-cap there was a large bunch of dark purple crystals! I noticed that this stuff obviously couldn't be K2Cr2O7, but didn't
think about it too much, and I'm not sure if I disposed of the bottle or kept it. Could that stuff be CrO3? If so, does anybody
have an idea on how this process could be carried out on purpose, and the CrO3 crystallized in pure form (without K2SO4
etc.)? Any info would be very much appreciated!

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 25, 2001).]

deezs July 27th, 2001, 04:41 PM

You don't have to apologize! I'm happy, that you have "stolen" "my topic". I think these things doesn't belong to anyone. I
have found my informations in cehmistry books, so you don't have to refer to me.

". Carefully stir the acid gently and pour a few mls of the dichromate solution slowly into the acid. "
Why should you pour the water (thinner solution) to the acid?
"very concentrated H2SO4"
What does it mean in precentages? If you don't know it exactly, you should check it's density.
I have wrote down the recipe, which I used to make CrO3. I made this stuff in a 50 ml baker.(It wasn't more thanhalf full) I
didn't weighed anything - my book doesn't gives exact weighs or precentages -, but the yield was fare more than a few mgs. I
filtered the fine red powder with glass wool, and put on a watch glass (8cm diameter). It covered it fully. I couldn't ger it off
from the glass wool, and it was wet from sulphuric acid, but it reacted with alcohol nicely.
An idea: try it again, without any cooling. My book writes cooling, but I can't remember, if I used any. I know I should write
A reliable book of mine says, that only 4.9 g K2Cr2O7 dissolves in 100g water on 0 deg. Later you say, that "A method similar
to above but with K2Cr2O7. "
From this, I think you have mistyped something.
About Na2Cr2O7.2H2O my book says, that 238 g of it dissolves in 100 g water on 0 deg.

About your small vial:

It would be good to know, what was the screw cap made from. It is possible, that the acid oxidized that.
Even if it has reacted with just air, I don't think that this could be used for preparative prupose. But if you find a way, please
tell it!
How does chromic-sulphuric acid reacts with argentite?

Hey! I have just found an other strong oxidizer, serching for CrO3 infos.

My new favourite is chromil-chloride.(CrO2Cl2)

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Dissolve 1 g CrO3 in a few cm3 concentrated HCl. (I'm sure wet will work)Put it on an ice bath, and add some ccH2SO4. Dark
red liquid should form. I don't know the density, but I think thats not a problem for you to isolate it, if you could get CrO3.

b.) specially for you, Lagen!

The boiling point of CrO2Cl2 is 116,7 deg. celsius.
To prepare it, mix 1g fine NaCl powder with 3g K2Cr2O7. Put this into an erlenmeyer flask, and pour ccH2SO4 to the flask,
ebough to cover the solid. Insert a stopper, with a glass tube, and distill out the chromil-chloride.
4 NaCl + 3 H2SO4 + K2Cr2O7 = 2 CrO2Cl2 + K2SO4 + 2 Na2SO4 + 3 H2O

Chromil-chloride is a very strong oxidizer, it lights organic compounds. Reacting with water, it formes HCl and chromic acid.

I know what to do tomorrow!

Have a nice day!!!

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

deezs July 28th, 2001, 05:00 PM

And there's always tomorrow!

I made some chromil-chloride today.

I mixed 1g NaCl with 3g K2Cr2O7, poured into a test tube, and added some sulphuric acid. I used an other test tube in an ice
bath, to collect the distillated chromil-chloride. After the addition of sulphuric acid, it started to bubble, and some yellow smoke
(no smell) was produced. I heated it a bit, and distilled about 1 cm3 CrO2Cl2. Then the fumes became darker and darker
(dunno why) , so I stopped the distillation.
I made a few experiments with it:
dripped onto the floor, it produces yellow smoke, and leaves a brown spot on the concrete. The fumes must be chromic acid,
because when it contacts with paper, it colours it to green.
When added to some ethanol, it always lighted it! This is more reliable, than CrO3 or KMnO4/glycerol. (That somtimes just
sizzled for me.)
With aceton it reacted vigrously, but I couldn't see any flame.
With benzene, and turpentine it didn't reacted.

Some pieces of advice:

Use enough great flask, or small quantities, because this stuff produces a great foam.
Heat it really slowly.
Avoid any contact, especially the fumes. I think they are toxic and carciogenic.
Use glass fittings if you have, because it corrodes the rubber stopper. (not so badly as NOx)
I couldn't pour out the stuff, what stayed in the test tube. I added some alcohol (from a safe distance) to see, if it reacts, but
the test tube stayed cool. I filled it with water, and put to a safe place, to see, if it can be cleaned out.
I think if you make the reaction in a flask, you will need a few days, to clean it out. But be careful! Don't forget, what is in the
flask, and what does it with water!

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

Lagen July 29th, 2001, 10:41 AM

I don't wanna sound sarcastic, but my version is "I hope that there will be a tomorrow..."
Thanks for all the input, deezs, I will now try to answer the questions.

The suggested method for H2CrO4: This is from a Usenet article, which was written by a scientist, who should know that Acid to
wata is what he oughta. But still... This is the ref he gave: Standard Glassware Cleaning Solutions, The Chemist's Companion,
J.Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-31590-7 (1972).

The H2SO4 I used was 90%. I thought that the concentration didn't matter in this case, as in the first experiment there was
already 4 times as much water because of the K2C2O7 soln (which you correctly stated can be made only rather thin). In the
second experiment, I also watered it down a bit with the addition of the solution, but it didn't change anything. You made me
think about it again, as you said "red powder". The dichromate I put in the acid appears somewhat altered, normally its color
is a brilliant orange, but the powder in the soln is somewhat red. (K2Cr2O7 exhibits some extreme color variations: At liquid
N2 temp. it is yellow, at high temp. it is red. Don't know if pH affects it too.) I thought that maybe some CrO3 was forming on
it, but I don't think it reacted completely. It has still the original grain shape and size. Some dichromate dust floating on the
acid however turned completely purple. I tried some of the red powder+acid on alcohol, the reaction was violent, but it didn't
catch on fire.

K vs. Na salt solubility: My sources give the following numbers (g/100g H2O):

<table width="100%"><tr><td>Soly g/100g H2O</td><td>0C</td><td>10C</td><td>20C</td></tr><tr><td>K2Cr2O7</

</td></tr><tr><td>Na2Cr2O7 . 2H2O</td><td>240.60</td><td>254.34</td><td>273.94</td></tr></table>
There are some differences, but these shouldn't change anything. I don't know, if K2Cr2O7 forms a hydrate at normal temp.,
but I think it doesn't. You are right that the potassium salt is far less soluble. I thought like this: I'll add an excess of
K2Cr2O7, only some will dissolve in the 2g water to form a concentrated solution. In this way it was similar to the procedure
with the sodium salt. Btw in the books they mention no solution. They just say "sulfuric acid with potassium dichromate" "forms

I tried again, as you suggested. 40ml H2O and 6g K2Cr2O7 were placed in a beaker, heated over a gas flame with shaking
until everything dissolved, and allowed to cool. Some dichromate pptd, but this was left there to ensure saturation. 30ml of the
above acid were added, in five portions. And this worked! Immediately a red ppt appeared, and the blanket of the dichromate
xx redissolved. I kept adding the H2SO4 until I thought I had enough ppt, so I don't know if this can be taken any further.
When the latter portions were being added, some white substance was forming in the soln that immediately redissolved (?).
Then I made the following heating setup: Two layers of Al foil were stretched on a frame and placed over a gas burner. I
placed a glass "crucible" in the center of the foil that I made by cracking a No.19 ground glass stopper and using the hollow
top. The vessel was filled half-way with sludge left after decanting the soln from the rxn. At first temp was kept low for the
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acid-water mix to boil off. After that it was raised somewhat, I don't know the exact temps, I didn't insert the probe because of
the H2SO4 vapours. (In the meantime I tried to wash the remaining sludge with acetone. It reacted, a lot of carbon and Cr2O3
was produced.) The CrO3 formed a layer in the upper section of the container. After about 20mins the liquid portion in the
bottom started to turn green (dunno why the Cr gets reduced), so I turned off the heat and allowed to cool. (Btw if a small bit
of the sludge was placed on the hot foil directly, if fumed a lot and turned green/yellow. The resulting mass reacted slowly with
EtOH, turning completely green. When this green substance was heated to a high temp, it formed light brown ashes.) Then I
tested the CrO3 sludge, it was still wet with H2SO4. With EtOH the reaction was violent, a lot of Cr2O3 was produced, and I
think it gave off acetaldehyde too, but no flame. Probably the CrO3 must be dried first and the alcohol dehydrated. With sulfur
the reaction was slow. I will have to try some better drying techniques yet.

Found the lil tube. Now I'm sure that 5 years ago I removed the crystals, but now I had another crop. They are actually a
mixture of purple (not red), white and green xx. (So some CrIII originated over the ages - really not a good way to make
CrO3!) I tried the rxn with EtOH, it was very slow, but ultimately the stuff changed to Cr2O3. Obviously the loads of
coprecipitated stuff make it useless. But this leads me to the idea that maybe, at reduced pressure, this mechanism could be
used to remove the H2SO4 from the above rxn. The lid was PE, and it surely did not react. When I unscrewed it, there was
some solution in the threads, and this could be wiped off. After washing the lid, there was no visible damage, and the mass of
the crystals was comparatively large. The crystals were just attached to the lid where the solution contacted atmosphere, so -
slow evaporation of H2SO4 i guess.

Regarding the rxns with argentite, I cannot tell you what rxns happen there (just guess), I can only tell how it worked for me.
You would place a tiny drop on the surface of the sample. Now if it is pure silver, the drop will imediately turn red (normally the
soln is kinda yellow-orange-brown). Silver dichromate forms. On argentite it would be dark red or brown at first, then gradually
turn to a dark brown, with red ppt on the argentite. Solution very slowly turns green - S reduces the Cr. On silver it NEVER turns
green. You would then wait a few seconds, then spit on it and rub it away with a paper handkerchief. On silver the stain would
be dark and clean, but always the center would be a bit lighter than the dark edge. On argentite the stain would be a uniform
dark colour, of a metallic lustre, with a little bit of some purple/pink stuff that is hard to rub away. If you stil weren't sure, you
could do this: The samples were laid out in the hot sun and left a few minutes to react. After rubbing off the drop, the stain on
silver would have three concentric parts: Dark on the outside, then a stripe of brilliant silver, and a somewhat grayish centre,
where the silver turned spongy. With argentite the rxn would be SLOOOOOWWWWW, again the stain was rather dark and
uniform, with the tiny red bits. With iron, the soln turns green, with tin and lead there is almost no reaction and no color
change. Now don't ask me what is the chemical composition of all those stains http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif I don't know if anyone else uses this method, I kinda made it up myself. There was no fellas doing this, no literature
on the subject and no Internet.

Thanks for the info on chromylchloride. It looks promising, will have a look at it...

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 29, 2001).]

deezs July 29th, 2001, 12:23 PM

From your posts, I see, that you like chemical experiments. I have started a topic about "interesting experiments" in the
miscellenaeous section. Nobody answered, so I haven't post more, but if you are interested, we could continue the topic.
My favourite experimental sites:


(in german)

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

FadeToBlackened July 29th, 2001, 06:00 PM

Found something interesting while reading a 'safety card' for chromyl chloride.
"Dissolves chromium trioxide, yielding a powerful oxidant."
Would this yield a more violent reaction with EtOH or something?

deezs July 30th, 2001, 04:06 PM

I have ran out from K2Cr2O7, so If you have some CrO3, and planning to make some CrO2Cl2, you could try it, if it could be
separated from sulphuric acid this way. With alcohol, it will surely react, but with other organic compounds... I don't know. An
interesting question.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

Lagen July 30th, 2001, 05:08 PM

If I got it right, you mean separating the CrO3 from H2SO4. I'll try and let you know, but I have absolutely no idea what the
CrO3 will do with the other reactants, and whether it will distill over (!). I think it won't, after all it doesn't boil, just decompose.
It would have to form some weird azeotrope to distil. Will just try.

Oh, and I don't like to see fellow pyros running out of a chemical, while I'm drowning in it. If you wanted to waste some more
time with it, I could transfer some of the blood of my industry http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif But I can
see that you're heading to the university, so I fully understand your point. Just in case, let me know.

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 30, 2001).]

Lagen July 30th, 2001, 11:52 PM

Well I guess I messed up. I didn't even get to the point of trying the distillation with CrO3, because I obviously didn't get
chromyl chloride. I made a jointed distillation setup (using only a No.14 test tube as distillation flask) & put in 1g NaCl, 3g
K2Cr2O7 and a bit H2SO4 to soak it. It did bubble, and some yellow gas evolved, but just to fill the tube. I had to heat it
rather hard, and the mixture boiled peacefully. Some red liquid appeared, but this just refluxed in the tube! I feared
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increasing the temperature, as it was damn hot already. I got only about 1/2ml of a yellow liquid, which did not react violently
with anything. It dissolved CrO3, but without effect. Then I put some wet CrO3 crystals on a paper towel soaked in EtOH, for
comparison, and it fizzled nicely. So something is wrong here, maybe next time I'll try to make sure the NaCl and H2SO4 are
thoroughly dried first. I sure believe you deezs, about the cleanup, the residue even LOOKS like hard to remove!

Lagen July 31st, 2001, 02:09 PM

OK guys, some better results at last. I did the distillation in the same manner as above, except that I made sure everything
was free of water. I made the NaCl for this purpose by HCl+Na2CO3 so this was generated as a very fine ppt, and I baked it in
the oven. I baked the still parts too. This time it frothed a lot, and I got a bit of a red liquid. When dropped on a towel soaked
in EtOH, at the instant the drop touched it there was a 20cm flame! Now I call this an oxidizer! On paper it just produced a
burnt mark, but no flame. I then dissolved some CrO3 in it, it dissolved only partially. When dropped on paper, the paper
turned brown then black, and some fizzling and crackling was heard, but still no flame. Maybe sometime i'll try again with a
larger batch of it. It would be fine if the mixture could be distilled under the boiling point of H2SO4. And maybe the residual
H2SO4 will not affect its oxidizing properties, that could be a good workaround.

deezs July 31st, 2001, 03:36 PM

Congratulation to your results, Lagen!
But the great flame was due to the great amount of alcohol. The chromil-chloride just ignited the paper towel.
I think you had better to be more careful with trying a new reaction. First time never use more than a drop from the chemicals.
Even if it is a high explosive, you don't risk an injury this way. Never trust any recipe from books, or from forum members.
Try everything in a small quantity first. If you know the reaction, you can control it. I know, what I say. I make dangerous
chemical experiments for about 4 years now, but I had no accident. Trying to heat a flammable stuff in your kitchen, or using
great excess of alcohol, is too dangerous. I say this, just because I see from your posts, that you are good in theoretical
chemistry, but a bit unguarded. Be more careful!
But I don't want to continue the "Sermon on the Mount".
Nice to light some alcohol with this stuff, but we need more fun, aren't we?
I have 2 ideas:
1. I think a reliable chemical ignitor could be made from chromil chloride and alcohol. Just simply solder the CrO2Cl2 it into an
ampoule, and put into a glass bottle, filled with alcohol.
2. I've tried to react the chromil chloride with benzene too. I saw nothing, I think it just dissolved. You could try to ignite this
mixture. Perhaps it is explosive.? I dunno.
Thank you for the offer! It's good to know, that there are so helpful people among us. Thanx!
I will be hanging here for a while, but I don't know, if we meet later. I give my address here. Write, if you have any interesting
topic to discuss.


"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

[This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 31, 2001).]

Lagen August 1st, 2001, 04:10 PM

I guess that from a couple of my last posts I look like a stupid jerk, who loves to make big fires in his home. Let me say that
I'm on my own and am responsible for every material damage as well as my health and life. I know a couple of people who
fucked up their lives with stupid accidents. I know what it is like, when an elderly, reasonable man, who can barely recognize
larger objects at 0.5m, has to admit that he played with some lame acid mixture when he was a child. That really makes you
look like an idiot for the rest of your life.

Anyway, back to the topic. Well I wouldn't start this thread if these substances didn't have some good use in pyrotechny.
Personally I think that this combination has some very good qualities. I know that the *big fire* was caused by a lot of fuel. I
rather wanted to point out, that the ignition was instant and reliable. Regarding the ignitor idea ... looks like a great excess of
ethanol! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif With some smaller proportions, you could create a convenient
fire starter, and if you found some reliable means of cracking the ampoule on impact, you could make it into a Molotov
cocktail far superior to the traditional sulfuric acid-chlorate designs. Maybe now it's time for us to experiment with some
different fuels/mixes. Yes, CrO2Cl2 dissolves in benzene, and in carbon tet and chloroform as well.

Other uses I can think of: Ignition mixes for delayed detonators - the kind that has been discussed here, where the acid
corrodes some retaining wire and then a firing pin breaks a separator to mix the components. If we found a suitable reducing
agent that would react explosively with CrO2Cl2/CrO3 then maybe this could be used right next to a primary explosive in a
detonator. It's also possible to build a position sensitive ignition system, again with some mechanical element piercing a
separator. The possibilities are endless.

Deezs, I will mail you with some ideas today, but I must consider the various possibilities so it may take a while.

Lagen August 1st, 2001, 08:21 PM

Warning: Untried primary explosive recipe from an unknown source!

Preparation of Triamine Chrome Tetroxide:

Materials: CrO3, H2O2, NH4OH
Procedure: Prepare a 10% aqueous solution of ammonia (25ml) and a 50% aqueous solution of CrO3 (5ml). Mix these
solutions and cool to 0C. Add 5ml of 30% H2O2 drop by drop. Let the mixture stand in the ice bath for an hour. Crystals of
ammonium dichromate will appear. Heat the mixture to 50C, maintain the temperature until the evolution of gases had
stopped and the salt had fully dissolved. Upon cooling, triamine chrome tetroxide will crystallize. Filter out the crystals,
squeeze off the excess liquid and wash with ether. Dry over KOH in a desiccator. Yield approx. 0.3g. Partially decomposes in
water. Explodes on strong heating (approx. at 170C). Edit/Note: Maybe this is nonsensical/wrong/dangerous, any comments

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 01, 2001).]
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FadeToBlackened August 1st, 2001, 11:39 PM
When CrO3 or CrO2Cl2 react with alcohol, what is released? Are there fumes of hexavalent chromium released, or are they
transformed into some Cr (III) compound?

Lagen August 2nd, 2001, 12:03 AM

The way this works is reduction of Cr VI->III. Chromium only rarely occurs in IV or V. In the reactions I have seen, everything
has been reduced to Cr2O3 (beautiful green color). You could have something dispersed due to overheating, but this should
be negligible.

deezs August 2nd, 2001, 02:49 PM

"unknown source" What does it mean? A friend, a post somewhere on the net, or what?

Need a reducing agent?

1. Try hidrazine! Ok I know, that you haven't, but I have a recipe, how to make hidrazine sulphate. That is a bit safer to
handle. If you are interested, I can calculate the needed amoutns of the chemicals (NH4OH, NaOCl, Cl2, H2SO4). For good
yield you will need a few grams of glue. That kind, which is made from animals.
2. ascorbic acid
3. formaldehyde (HCHO) solution, or paraformaldehyde (you know, the white solid, on the wall of the formaldehyde bottle)
4. cc.HCOOH
5. fine Zn powder
need more? Perhaps later...

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

Lagen August 3rd, 2001, 01:56 AM

The recipe: I found it on a Russian site (BSVi (http://www.geocities.com/spxors/RECEPT/tetra.htm)) and they didn't state any
references. Somehow I don't trust it's correct (at least the name of the chemical - peroxochromate would make more sense to
me, but who knows). And some other Russian people on this forum keep warning everyone about BSVi's "recipes". I have
myself found some mistakes therein.
Hydrazine: I have some recipes for hydrazine sulphate - the kind from the "CIA" manuals, but I am really, really scared of
hydrazine and have read that the sulfate is a nasty, toxic, carcinogenic shit as well. Any idea how much dangerous it actually
Formaldehyde: I have some solution here, but I never thought it could produce an explosive reaction because of all the water.
I have never had any paraformaldehyde in my bottles. The labels say "stabilized with 15% methanol", could that make a
Thanks for the tips! I think I will go with the Zn powder.

Edit: Deezs, I'm having problems trying to email you. The messages keep coming back with some weird error (not 'No such
user here'). I didn't put any keywords, like 'dichromate' in them, or anything incriminating - I'm not that stupid - just told you
that you should install PGP before we exchange any information. Now there are 3 possibilities:
1) There's some technical problem with your mailbox. You would have probably noticed that.
2) Your mailbox is being watched, perhaps because the address appeared here.
3) Someone doesn't like that idea.

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 03, 2001).]

deezs August 3rd, 2001, 02:06 PM

Your formaldehyde solution is not the same, as mine. I don't know, if any stabilizator would be in mine, but sure, that it's
concentration was 40%, when I've bought it.
I agree with you, the lot of water will reduce the violence of the reaction.
I had an other idea: ascorbic acid, dissolved in alcohol. There's just one problem: it not dissolves in alcohol too well. But you
could try it.

I had no problem with this mail server yet. I made an other adress there. Try this:
What is pgp? I don't know anything about it.
I'm not scared from the police or any agencies. (by the way: If an agent reads this, I have a message for him: baszd meg a
kurva pallottseggu nenikedet te fasszopo barom allat! Oh, you can't imagine, how badly can a hungarian swear.
Unfortunatelly, it is impossible to translate it.)
Here, in Hungary, there was a young "chemist", who blowed off his hand with AP. He colud make the judge belive, that he
wanted to make a new kind of plastic in his lab. He was found inocent. There's no proof for I have ever made any explosive.
Yes, I have a ton of chemicals, but that is not enough evidence.
I don't speak russian. There is a russian chemist, Rusl, who started the topic "luminous solution". I haven't seen him on the
forum since than, but we wrote to each other a few times. I will ask him to visit that page, and tell his opinions.
About hidrazine: I don't think it could be so dangerous. Of course I mean just small quantities. In the topic "hydrazine" Mr
Cool talked about the safety precautions, what he would make. I think it shows, that most forum members ar much more
scared about getting cancer, than blowing off a hand. If you avoid ANY contact, there's no problem. Benzene, antracene and
the compounds containing Cr are the bugaboos. But they are just chemicals, like the NaCl, or picric acid. If you know ALL
properties of them, you can avoid all the injuries.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

FadeToBlackened August 3rd, 2001, 03:03 PM

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avoiding ANY contact.. that would require a lot of equipment..Hydrazine is very volatile, so you would need breathing
protection. The way i see it, thats like trying to work with acetone without smelling it. hehe

deezs August 3rd, 2001, 03:16 PM

Here is an appeal to ban an other dangerous chemical. What do you think about it?

The Invisible Killer

DHMO is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused
by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of it do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe
tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling,
nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain

-is the major component of acid rain.

contributes to the "greenhouse effect."
-may cause severe burns.
-contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
-accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
-may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
-has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

Contamination Is Reaching Epidemic Proportions!

Quantities of DHMO have been found in almost every stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is global,
and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice.

DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage in the Midwest, and recently California.

Despite the danger, DHMO is often used:

as an industrial solvent and coolant.

in nuclear power plants.
in the production of Styrofoam.
as a fire retardant.
in many forms of cruel animal research.
in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be done to stop them because this practice is still
legal. The impact on wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it any longer!

The Horror Must Be Stopped!

The American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its
"importance to the economic health of this nation." In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting
experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds
of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store
large quantities for later use.

It's Not Too Late!

Act NOW to prevent further contamination. Find out more about this dangerous chemical. What you don't know can hurt you
and others throughout the world.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

FadeToBlackened August 3rd, 2001, 03:30 PM

DHMO = Dihydrogen monoxide http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif water hehe.

Lagen August 3rd, 2001, 03:49 PM

PGP was originally an encryption program. Nowadays it's a set of security utilities (which are not free) or freeware security
utilities (which are useless), so I (and most other people) use it just as an encryption utility. It is said to be pretty safe (and
PGP stands for "Pretty Good Privacy"). You can download the freeware version from www.pgp.com, (http://www.pgp.com) it's
about 7.5 MB. Don't be fooled by the "Intruders detection" feature, it is not functional in the freeware version.

I think it's not a big problem if the pigs read what we write here, because it could hardly be used as evidence. But if we
arrange some transfer/handover/whatever, and get caught, they will find out our identity. I am far from being as disciplined as
you! Of course I have all sensitive stuff aside from my home (the official address), and almost no-one knows where I am
based now. Those who know would not tell. But then I may get followed or something, and even if I manage to destroy all
evidence, I won't be able to work as effectively ever again! Therefore I'm careful when it comes to any links to real places, real
times, real people! This is how it works in my country: 1) The pigs find out about you - for example you post something in a
forum under some identity which gets on the list. 2) They find out who you are - they make the site administrator and ISP
cooperate. 3) They wait... until there's a reason to "visit" you - If someone blows his hand off with HMTD or something, and
this incident happens "near" your home, it's more than sufficient. 4) They search your place, even without you knowing, and if
they find an explosive (even a few grams), or even related nonexplosive items (casings, detonator parts, firing set) you ARE
in trouble. Not because of the incident, but because of what they found. They use the same methods as the communist police
(after all they are the same people) and from what I've heard, will make you tell things you even don't know. The judges are
usually biased against the suspect. And every such case is made into a great hummbug in the papers, which "makes up" for
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their inability (or unwillingness) to fight the BIG crime.

Yeah Rusl got deleted right away, maybe that pissed him off.

Regarding DHMO: I fully agree, I know some people who abuse dihydrogen monoxide for the manufacture and testing of
various very dangerous explosives!

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 05, 2001).]

deezs August 6th, 2001, 02:56 PM

Lagen! I couldn't understand this sentence:
"I am far from being as disciplined as you!"
What did you wanted to say with this?

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

Lagen August 6th, 2001, 03:03 PM

I think you said something like "Of course I have a ton of chemicals, but that's no evidence..." - so no explosives at home, I
guess. I am far from being so disciplined to make stuff only as needed and shoot it right away, or store somewhere in a cache
in the woods.

fightclub August 11th, 2001, 04:21 AM

Hey Lagen: I have interest in that strange primary, sorry no specific explosive properties found, but I did find this in
Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology (1980) Vol. 7(?):

"The peroxy compound, CrO43 NH3 [CAS: 7168-85-3] is obtained by warming an ammonicial ammonium perchromate
solution followed by cooling. Structural data shows that the three NH3 molecules and two peroxide ions are coordinated to

Lagen August 11th, 2001, 01:42 PM

Wow! Fightclub, thanks for the info! I have already lost all hope to find any mention of it in the literature. So, after all, the
name was not that nonsensical... Btw I have tried the recipe, and it works. Haven't done too much extensive measurements,
though, the yield was very, very low. Thanks again!

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > hydrazine!!

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View Full Version : hydrazine!!

mongo blongo June 19th, 2001, 08:08 PM

i am now able to get access to 2,4 dinitrophenylhydrazine!
is there any way of rendering hydrazine from it?
if so does anyone have any ideas?

i like blowing shit up

Dhzugasvili July 6th, 2001, 10:05 PM

You really don't want to be messing around w ith hydrazine...even if you treat it w ith respect. Dude, you will fuck up the rest of your life with some of these things even WITH
THE SLIGHTEST MISTAKE!!! There are so many better explosives than astrolite to be experimenting with. Don't get anyw here near hydrazine! Unless you w ant to get cancer of

John456 July 6th, 2001, 11:23 PM

Even if you overlook the fact thats its very poisoness and very carcinogenic its very very flammable. This stuff belongs w ith benzene and other nasty carcinogens, you really
dont want to mess with it.

atropine July 7th, 2001, 11:17 AM

when i used to be interested in explosives i did have access to as much hydrazine as i could nick off with. Some one i know works in a pow erplant and hydrazine w as kept in
massive tankers. But i never actually wanted to get the stuff cos i feared getting cancer as w ell as all the other nasties that are asociated w ith this volatile chemical. I really
would prefere if only highly experienced ppl dealt with this stuff. There are somany othe more powerfull and safer explosives than astrolite etc. well actually hmtd is another id
add to my list of "AVOID" but thats just cos i w as a stupid dick and put a CM in my pocket.

all wize men have unwize fantasies &lt; ^ &gt;

mongo blongo July 7th, 2001, 02:51 PM

yea ive been doing more research on it and i don't like the sound of it. i agree that it is not w orth fucking about with! cancer is something i dont need. it is intresting stuff

a_bab July 7th, 2001, 04:35 PM

I have about 150 grams of hidrazine sulfate, but after I heard about it's carcinogenic properties, I gave up playing w ith this nasty stuff...


PYRO500 July 7th, 2001, 08:15 PM

Hydrazine in my opinion is more useful as a chemical weapon than an explosive reagent.

cutefix July 8th, 2001, 03:41 AM

Working or handling w ith dangerous chemicals is an inevitable reality that any chemist or aspiring worker in the field of chemistry will have to face squarely..I emphasize that
there is no royal road to know ledge;that is, you have to take risk in order to learn more about something that arouse your interest..If all those achievers w ere cow ards
,explosive chemistry as well as other chemical specialities could not have reached its levels of sophistication that benefited society tremendously. If we know our subject
well,then that knowledge will deliver us from the fear due to ignorance.
Hydrazine is just one of toxic chemicals that should not be abhorred but respected.Know ing its characteristics ,its uniqueness,and usefulness in certain application,as well as the
safety procedures required in its handling-then we can let go our apprehensions and continue to w ork with it,so that that will promote more learning and improve know ledge!
We have to reach s om e kind of chem ical maturity in order to achieve our goals!

Tony Montana July 8th, 2001, 03:51 AM


PYRO500 July 8th, 2001, 04:26 AM

You should handle Hydrazine as careful as you can! one mistake could be your last, this stuff does not rank w ith benzene, it ranks up there with dioxin! I pulled this from a
NIOSH web site

"NIOSH recommends as part of its carcinogen policy that the "most protective" respirators be worn for hydrazine at concentrations above 0.03 ppm."

if you mess w ith this stuff get a moon suit or build a glove box! Don't kill youself making a crappy explosive. by all means mix and distill and filter this liquid but only do so if
you have all the equipment needed to use it safely and the skill to use it safely, if you have accidents with chems occasionally then this isn't the best stuff for you to play with.

cutefix July 8th, 2001, 06:41 AM

When I was experimenting with hydrazine 10 years back, I did have a not so airtight suit and gas mask w hich I feel suffocating,but I have to bear it while mixing astrolite G in
small quantities in the field . The ingredients were premeasured in the lab It w as 300 ml anhydrous hydrazine in a reagent bottle and 600 grams fine ammonium nitrate in triple
layer of plastic sachetsI used about 3 liter glass jar and stirring rod. It created so much foam that I have to add the AN gradually .When it was clear I poured it in a small mound
of sand then let it absorb for some time w hile I remove my mask And rinsed the glassware w ith water and placed it in a bag.I w aited for an hour then.I used a military blasting
cap connected to about 10 feet of time fuse.I lit the fuse with a borrowed fuse lighter. and w ent into my car with the mask and glassware and drove some distance away.When
it went off I notice that its sound is not as loud as I expected but produced little to no smoke at all.but a cloud of sand,soil and stones were flung upward. When I returned, the
crater was about 3 feet deep and 5 feet wide.Maybe the sand was loose or something like that.in order to create such a crater size.

Mr Cool July 8th, 2001, 07:54 AM

My advice for handling nasty things like hydrazine: never let it dry out. This reduces the dust hazard. Wear a dust respirator just in case. You can get these specifically designed
for hazardous chemicals from chemical suppliers. The cost is small, especially when compared with your life.
Wear thick rubber gloves, two pairs if this still allows you to move well enough in them.
Faces shield, not goggles, to protect your full face from splashes. These can be picked up for less than 10, well worth it.
Wear a lab coat AND a waterproof covering over the top, and have a bucket of clean water next to you to immediately w ash off any spills before it soaks in, and then go and
run it under the tap.
Excellent ventillation is also recommended.
Make sure you know w here the chemical is at all times, e.g. all glasswear that has been in contact with it and is not being used should be put together, on a disposable plastic
sheet to stop any spills from getting on your workplace. If you have finished with a piece of equipment, put it into a bucket of a solution that neutralises the chemical. Mop up
any spills as soon as possible to stop them getting spread around, or before you forget about it. Don't do it in the middle of a vigorous reaction as this could be dangerous, but
do it at the first possible opportunity.
When finished, take off your clothes and put them straight into the washing machine, twice if you want. Wash the gloves and face shield in a neutralising solution, then with

That's about it I think. All that and a healthy share of common sense should keep you safe.

deezs August 2nd, 2001, 03:20 PM

I totally agree with Cutefix, and Mr Cool. I hve a recipe, how to make hidrazine sulphate, if somebody interested.
chemicals needed:
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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

mr.evil June 14th, 2002, 11:29 AM

Tell me please :)

rikkitikkitavi June 14th, 2002, 11:48 AM

better than glue is EDTA. Both serves as complex binding agents(chelates) for metall ions that will cause a catalytic decomposiotion of N2H4 in the reaction vessel. EDTA binds
stronger to metallions than the compounds in the glue.

EDTA can be bought from chemical suppliers, and is also found in water purifing additives for aquariums but at less concentration.


vulture June 14th, 2002, 03:25 PM

Hydrazine is know n to cause cancer by rats, but until now, not a single case of humane cancer was identified with hydrazine as the cause. It's indicated as a weak carcinogen.
LD50 = 129mg/kg

IIRC correctly, NH3 is as poisonous as hydrazine...

<small>[ June 14, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

VX June 14th, 2002, 08:01 PM

That's very interesting.

When applying to different Universitys earlier this year I attended several 'open days'. One of these, included a practical demonstration entitled sound and light. (The title was in
French but I can't remember the French spelling, something like somme et lumier). And was themed upon various explosions... it w as very good.

Anyway, as one of the experiments the bloke poured some liquid NO2 (N2O4) into a round bottom flask. This started to boil instantly releasing clouds of NO2, causing a red
cloud around the w hole bench. At this point he proceeded to add a few drops of hydrazine sulphate... The reaction was quite spectacular, a three foot jet of flame shooting out
of a 10mm flask is quite interesting to see :)

The demonstration lasted about 10 mins and was packed with explosions literally on every few seconds, and the guy talked it through as he went. Unfortunately he had a very
strong Russian accent, and I couldn't understand most of what he said :mad:

SMAG 12B/E5 June 26th, 2002, 01:48 AM

I understand the reluctance of some to handle hydrazine but beleive the fear of toxic chemicals has been overblown by the enviro-freaks in power. Use caution, but do not allow
the uneducated and unwashed fanatics to deter you from serious research. I am an old fart that was using Astrolite in Nam and some nastier chemicals in civilian life and am still
here. Today's fear of "toxic" chemicals borders on hysteria and serves the agenda of the anti-science/anti-industrial groups! Hydrazine is a chemical with an "acceptable" risk.

Sam June 26th, 2002, 03:49 AM

I saw this site when i searched google for "hydrazine".
It is rather in depth with lots of information on safety.
However, if I w ere you I w ould do everything in my pow er to avoid it at all costs, for several reasons.

<a href="http://www .itcilo.it/english/actrav/telearn/osh/ic/302012.htm" target= "_blank">http://w ww.itcilo.it/english/actrav/telearn/osh/ic/302012.htm< /a>

Bitter June 26th, 2002, 11:21 AM

We used to use hydrazine at school for organic chemistry experiments. That w as going back some time, but how dangerous is it *really* if they let 16 year old school kids use it

A_W June 26th, 2002, 01:24 PM

I have to agree with Bitter. (it is my opinion that) The toxicity of hydrazine is strongly overrated [/overdone?].

Poorly translated from my encyclopedia:

</font><blockquote><font size= "1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:< /font>< hr /><font size= "2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Hydrazine w ill, when inhaled,
irritate membranes and respiratory tract. When exposure is strong, temporarly damages to the nerve system may occurre, w ich leads to shaking. Animal testings has show n
that, w hen administered in large doses, cancer and/or liver damages has occurred. < /font>< hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">

Zambosan June 26th, 2002, 03:51 PM

Like any other substance, it's the total exposure that makes the difference.

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]</small>

mongo blongo June 26th, 2002, 05:17 PM

Bitter- Are you sure it was Hydrazine? I ask this because 2,4 dinitrophenylhydrazine is used in organic chemistry to test for an aldehyde or ketone I think. I thought that only
universities had it. If it was hydrazine then you should have borrowed some. <img border="0" title= "" alt="[Wink]" src= "w ink.gif" />

cutefix June 27th, 2002, 03:36 AM

</font><blockquote><font size= "1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:< /font>< hr /><font size= "2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I have to agree with Bitter. (it is
my opinion that) The toxicity of hydrazine is strongly overrated [/overdone?].</font> <hr /></blockquote><font size= "2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">THis MSDS thing is
overrated and was designed for non handlers of chemicals to be aware of the dangers. :D and not the regular chemical experimenters.

Yeah,Its damn right.This extrem ely toxicwarning w as an exaggeration so as to discourage w ould be explosive experimenters to use it for highly powerful and easy to make binary
explosive.Even this Dr. Hurst is joining the fray in discouraging people to experiment with it stated in his yarchive posts.
If its that fatal, I could have died several years ago,as I inhaled fumes from it a lot of times
And if you are aw are about the anhydrous hydrazine about its extreme flammability(that literally it will seekout any open flame nearby ) in order to get combusted;then an
explosive enthusiast must be knowledgeable about its peculiar behavior.In addition he should exercise utmost care in handling and using it.Then the experience of seing this
material perform very interesting explosive behavior w ill be worthwhile plus the bonus that you are still in one piece and exhilarated at the performance. :D :D
The main problem nowadays is its very difficult to obtain the anhydrous materials which gives the best performance in explosive application..

<small>[ June 27, 2002, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>

megalomania June 27th, 2002, 11:57 PM

If you are that interested mr.evil, I have a procedure to make hydrazine on my w ebsite at < a href="http://roguesci.org/megalomania/synth/synthesis2.html# hydrazine"
target= "_blank">http://roguesci.org/megalomania/synth/synthesis2.html#hydrazine</a> w hich is an adaptation of the procedure to make hydrazine sulfate from Organic
Synthesis. You can view the procedure at the Organic Synthesis w ebsite by using one of the new specialty search engines here at The Forum. The synthesis of hydrazine sulfate
has also been posted by nbk2000.

Bitter June 28th, 2002, 11:08 AM

It w as definitely hydrazine- an opaque (I think) yellow liquid. I did'nt take any becuase I didn't know what it could be used for at the time.
Edit : The internet was almost unheard of in those days, so no EWF either.

<small>[ June 28, 2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Bitter ]< /small>
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cutefix June 28th, 2002, 10:49 PM

The really pure grade hydrazine is a clear liquid like w ater.If its cloudy its full of impuritites and unsafe for binary explosive or even propellant composition.I think this is one
reason why fatal accidents occur in using this interesting material.
For chemical specs and Properties check this out:
<a href="http://www .hydrazine.com/hydrazine/Propellants/Products.asp" target="_blank"> http://www .hydrazine.com/hydrazine/Propellants/Products.asp</a>

mongo blongo June 28th, 2002, 11:02 PM

2,4 dinitrophenylhydrazine is yellow to orange in colour.

cutefix June 29th, 2002, 09:42 AM

It should be, because the presence of aromatic groups w ill add s ome color to the resulting nitrate.The phenyl group have cyclic unsaturated carbon atom -C=C C=C-C=C-capable of
absorbing certain wavelength of light that will be responsible for the color.
If you notice also aromatic explosives like Picric Acid and TNT are yellow to orange in color.But heterocylic explosives like RDX is colorless to white in color.
The mother substance phenylhydrazine changes from colorless yellow ish material(sometimes even to brown) when exposed to air or light.Other non aromatic hydrazine does not
show this behavior.
Its synthesis is even described in these URL;
<a href="http://www .rhodium.ws/chemistry/phenylhydrazine.html" target= "_blank">http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/phenylhydrazine.html</a>
This aromatic hydrazine is an exception to the rule.

I am not aware if this hydrazobenzene material was ever used in binary explosive. But,indeed in the presence of nitrate ion it will form a nitro group with many isomers and an
negative oxygen balance because of the presence of the bulky benzene ring.Therefore the theoretical energetic performance is inferior if compared with that of normal hydrazine
N2H4 which when converted to its nitrate will have excess oxygen(positive OB) and no carbon that is responsible for its excellent performance.
Therefore this is not included in the category for exotic fuels for liquid explosives or propellants.
Its importance is for the manufacure of dyestuffs,photographic chemicals and as reagent analytical chemistry.
BTW, dinitrophenylhydrazine is another compound already containing nitro groups,and cannot be considered in similar category as the basic hydrazine material methioned in the
URL for propellants <img border= "0" title= "" alt= "[Wink]" src="w ink.gif" />

<small>[ June 29, 2002, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>

cutefix June 29th, 2002, 10:41 AM

Oh,BTW mongoI remember in your first post,that you want to break this dinitrophenylhydrazine into hydrazine and nitrate.
Does it contain water?It can be an explosive if water is taken out.
Its OB is about 88% w hile TNT is 74%
Why spare an effort in removing nitro groups when instead you just add more oxidizer to make it into a useful explosive.Say one part of DNPH to tw o part of ammonium
You w ill then invent a new binary explosive in the category of amatol.Then adding 10-20% aluminum will improve its performance as well! :cool:
Looks theoretically better than rock a rock .
How about that?

mongo blongo June 29th, 2002, 11:54 AM

Cutefix- I didn't think of that! That's a damn good idea!
That was a long time ago when I was in college so I no longer have access to the DNPH. :(
It shouldn't be that hard to get some for those among us who are in college doing organic chemistry. If anyone could obtain some then it w ould be interesting to experiment
with it. The DNPH I used w as in solution but I *think* I have seen it stored as a red powder which is then dissolved in deionized water?
When handling this stuff, be careful not to get it on your skin. It stains your hands yellow like HNO3 and you have to wait weeks for it to go. :mad:

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > fun with N2

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deezs July 27th, 2001, 03:37 PM

In a few weeks I will have some liquid nitrogen. Do you know a few interesting experiments?

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

Anthony July 27th, 2001, 04:00 PM

Freeze shit or trade it for LOX then the real fun beginshttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

BTW if you drink some you will be able to fly for 5 minutes!

a_bab July 27th, 2001, 04:05 PM

Please tell me where did you'll get the N2 from, as I'm a neighbour of you (you are from Hungaria, wright ?)
I'm also very interested in liquid gases experiments.

deezs July 27th, 2001, 04:59 PM

Yes I am hungarian. There's a small factory, where they make diferent things from Al.
The father of one of my friends works in that factory. He said, that a week before there was more than 50 litres of liquid nitrogen left, what just evaporated useless.(I don't
know what is it used for) I asked him earlier to bring out at least a liter, but I think that will be better, to ask the boss, to let me in, when they are done with work, to make a
few experiments, in place.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

[This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 27, 2001).]

Anthony July 28th, 2001, 08:01 PM

If a the company just gives you some of the LN2 the they're facing serious liability issues.

What are you planning on taking this LN2 home in, or keeping it for that matter? LN2 is very dangerous to store, I very much doubt you have the equipment capable of cooling
it to it's critical temp, which you'd need ot store it. Just bunging it in a thermos flask is going to just give you a pressure bomb.

nbk2000 July 28th, 2001, 09:34 PM

An all polyethylene thermos will safely contain liquid nitrogen. Just don't seal it up air tight.

As for liability, I don't think Hungary is sue happy like the US. Hell, a lot of countries don't have ANY liability laws.

Those are were the really fun things can be done. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Try pouring some LN over a steel bar or chain, then smash it to pieces with a wack of a hammer. Works with locks too, so I've heard. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/

Or tie a mouse to a string and dunk it in, and watch it shatter into pieces too.

And DON'T drink it. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif

"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

-A- July 29th, 2001, 03:15 AM

Well, in some way related to chemistry, I made ice cream a few times with liquid N. Just mix the ingredientes, and instead of puting it in the refrigerator, add some liquid N
and mix it. Add as much as necessary to get the dessired "coolness". An there you have, instant ice cream hehe. (You can add some liquor also... hehe)

deezs July 29th, 2001, 10:31 AM

The weather if fucnin' hot, so I think it will be better to make a few experiments in place, and bring home just a liter or so. I have glass thermos. It will do the job. No, I will
not put on the cap. I'm not an idiot.
Btw liquid nitrogen is not so dangerous. When I was in the preparatory camp of the IChO, I put my finger to liquid nitrogen for a second. It wasn't colder, than touching a piece
of ice. You know, when an object (my finger) is put into liquid gas(nitrogen), the gas starts to evaporate so fast, that it covers the object, and protects it from freezing for a
No, we haven't tested, how long can someone hold his finger in it, but I've heard, that a teacher (he wrote a 2 really good chemistry books), asked one of his students to hold
the funnel, till he pours the nitrogen to another flask. He poured it onto the hands of his student. He was so scared, that he dropped away the thermos with the nitrogen. The
guy had no ijury.
About getting the N2:
In my country, getting things like this, is as illegal, as anywhere, but I can persuade people, to help the development of the science (ME!). I do it for about 4 years now.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

Anthony July 29th, 2001, 04:11 PM

Sure you can just leave the cap off the thermos flask but then you've got limited time before you loose it all.

You could fit a pressure release valve into the cap of the thermos which woulc keep it for longer as it'd be better insulated.

Surely if he can dip his finger in it then he could quickly take a swig and spit it out?

Lagen July 29th, 2001, 04:22 PM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Freeze shit or trade it for LOX then the real fun begins</font>
Anthony, by "trading it", did you mean a barter trade or something more like chemistry/physics? The latter is easy - dip a test tube in the liquid N2 for a few moments, and
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voila - you got LOX!

Anthony July 29th, 2001, 06:48 PM

I meant in a trading way, but that is a good idea! I thought LOX was colder the LN2 though so the idea didn't cross my mind.

I guess pure oxygen would work better, so you wouldn't get liquified air which would be kinda impure. You could make some nice explosives easily with LOX.

Another idea, what if you put a gas canister in the LN2 like a CO2 powerlet, would it explode because the metal became to brittle/weak to hold the pressure, or would the CO2
become so cold that it's vapour pressure would be so weak it couldn't burst a wet paper bag?

FadeToBlackened July 29th, 2001, 07:00 PM

Dip a cotton ball in LOX and hold it over a candle/flame http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Do so with some sort of reaching apparatus, heh.

nbk2000 July 29th, 2001, 09:17 PM

You may be confusing the nitrogen vapor cloud with the actual liquid gas. If your finger had actually been in the liquid, they'd be calling you "stubby" right now.

And if you try swigging the stuff, you'll be a prime candidate for the Darwin Award.

Boiling Points (in C) N2 -195, O2 -183

If you passed pure, dry, oxygen gas (welding gas) through a coil immersed in dry ice slurry to pre-cool it to -70C, then you'd have a much better chance of liqufying the
oxygen using you're limited nitrogen supply.

Charcoal soaked with liquid oxygen is as powerful as 60% dynamite. Fun stuff.

"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

Anthony July 29th, 2001, 10:11 PM

What would you need to initiate the charcoal/LOX? Cap or just a heat source?

I ask because I saw a TV program (Clarkson) where a guy poured LOX onto something (can't remeber what) and put a match to it. I remeber thinking "that's going to
explode!" but it just burnt. I wish I could remember what it was but I think it was absorbant, possibly some item of food.

DarkAngel July 31st, 2001, 03:44 PM

I saw a movie of a guy that sett of his barbecue with LO,do you mean that?


For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)


Anthony July 31st, 2001, 05:34 PM

No, that guy uses a cigarette in amongst charcoal to ignite the LOX/charcoal on contact, if the LOX is poured on and then set light to it's supposed to explode.

deezs August 1st, 2001, 02:54 PM

I think I will make some liquid Cl2O with it. It is a stronger oxidizer, than liquid oxigen.

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > improvised blinding

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View Full Version : improvised blinding powder/grenades?

Viper4403 July 27th, 2001, 03:58 PM

I'm trying to make something that will
blind a target temporarily so I can escape.

Kinda like those old "ninja eggshell bombs".

Does anyone have suggestions?

I have :
Sulfur dust
Red Phosphorus

That's pretty much my stock right now .

Viper4403 July 27th, 2001, 05:36 PM

Ok i am going to go w ith a mixture of the sulfur dust and black pepper.

Still post anything you figure might work.

Donutty July 27th, 2001, 05:44 PM

..."so i can escape"

Oh no, not another! I remember that fool we had a w hile back saying he was part of an elite team w ho were going to blow up a govornment building!

Sulphur dust? Black pepper? Wont that just make them sneeze a bit? Are you trying to blind someone 'chemically' or with pyrotechnics, as sadly, I cannot recall "those old ninja
eggshell bombs".

If you want to use a pyro method, just create a 'flashbang' using magnesium.

And w hy not just throw some dust in their eyes....?

mongo blongo July 27th, 2001, 06:02 PM

You could make improvised Mace! There re some methods on the net but i don't know if they w ork.
You could give em the old fork in the eye!

mr.evil July 27th, 2001, 06:11 PM

why dont you make a uge terrible stinkybomb?
there is plenty of info on the forum.

greetzz from:

kingspaz July 27th, 2001, 06:13 PM

you could buy flash bangs from airsoft retailers. there're pretty cheap and are used in airsoft battles.

Viper4403 July 28th, 2001, 10:38 AM

..."so i can escape"

No, I'm not part of an elite team. LOL!

I am just interested in something that would

make someone sneeze and tear up for afew moments so I could get away. Also something to ruin the senses of a dog if I happened upon private property.

-A- July 28th, 2001, 04:42 PM

So you want a chemical of some sort to break the law ??? forget it...

SMAG 12B/E5 July 30th, 2001, 12:29 AM

For night operations, a mixture of KNO3 and magnesium filings is effective in destroying night vision. This method will cause problems for some of the earlier types of nightvision
equipment. It is very likely to ignite nearby combustibles, caution!

Demolition July 30th, 2001, 01:03 AM

I believe that KMnO4 flash would be an effective blinding pow der.Just recently my friend and I lit up 10 grams unconfined on concrete.It gave a massive flash leaving us all
blinded for a few seconds,what's even better is that you could confine it (paper tube) so that it would go BOOM than give a massive blinding flash.
I got that on tape so when I hook up my capture card I'll try and upload some pics,maybe a video too.


To be untouchable one must first surround himself with the strong.


[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited July 30, 2001).]

Demolition August 14th, 2001, 09:17 AM

Here's the picture of 10 grams of KMnO4 flash being lit unconfined.
http://ww w.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/Flash1.jpg
Not too bad don't you think.

Yeah,what up Detroit

Mr Cool August 14th, 2001, 03:09 PM

Sorry, but I don't think your picture has w orked. There is a possibility that it's just my computer which won't display it, because it's a pile of shite, but all I get is an "Image
hosted by Angelfire" thingy. No pretty KMnO4 flash http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

AR-15 Man August 14th, 2001, 03:36 PM

Do the airsoft dealers in the US carry flashbangs? I thought the ATF classfied them as Destructive Devices.

The_Coyote August 14th, 2001, 10:24 PM

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I once read about a devise that fired a blank cartridge with a mixture of blackpow der and magnessium. It w ould produce a blinding flash. I believe it used to be carried around
as a self defence weapon. It seems VERY improvisable. If I can find the book I will scan the picture. It consisted of a small barrel, a simple firing pin contained in a metal tube
and an end cap. it was fired by pulling back the firing pin and releasing.It could be reloaded w ith by unscrewing the barrel and loading another shell. I know this isn't what you
had in mind but i think it w ould be easier to do.

Gun control is being able to hit your target.

megalomania August 15th, 2001, 01:59 AM

That sounds like this one shotgun round called "The Dragon" or some such thing. I used to get a catalog of special ammunition that had that in it, it fired a long stream of bright
fire and had a loud bang. No projectile, but one hell of an effect.

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

Demolition August 15th, 2001, 08:08 AM

Does anyone one know of a good server or free w eb site I could upload some pictures too and w hich would allow them to be viewed?It's getting annoying that I can't show you
guys (and girl)http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif some of the pictures I found in a bin on the w ay home. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Yeah,what up Detroit

Mick August 15th, 2001, 09:46 AM

well, i still fail to see w hy you can't upload those pics you found to my server

send me the pics next time i see you on MSN or ICQ

must be something screw ed up with your connection settings...or your entering the address wrong...i dunno - noone else has any trouble w ith it

c0deblue August 15th, 2001, 01:58 PM

Back in "the day" ('bout 30 years ago) a friend of mine decided he w as gonna get the guys who alw ays ran up on his rear bumper with their high beams and dogged him for
miles. He got a package of "Super Press" high output flashbulbs, the kind they used for outdoor shots at night, (they were about the size of goose eggs) and wired four of them
up in his rear w indow well with a strip of aluminum sheet as a reflector. I wasn't there, but he said when he fired the bulbs all he could hear was a screech of brakes as the
blinded dude behind him tried to keep from driving off the road.

If you've ever had your picture taken with the old fashioned magnesium filament flashbulbs you'll know the effect - blind for about 20 seconds. His gadget was MANY times as
bright and directed against eyes adjusted for night conditions. Bet the guy couldn't see right for 10 minutes or more.

You could probably make a "flashlight" to do something similar, or figure out a w ay to use straight magnesium flashpow der.

Demolition August 18th, 2001, 06:38 AM

How do I link ftp files so then can be view ed?

Mick,I got it working,I had to adjust the ftp setting in Internet Options.

[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited August 18, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited August 18, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited August 18, 2001).]

J August 18th, 2001, 08:14 AM

Perhaps you could modify a disposable camera by adding a several extra capacitors in parallel. This w ould probably destry the flash tube, but the flash w ould hopefully be a lot

I don't know if they're still available, but you used to be able to buy these little flash cubes (probably the same as the things c0deblue mentioned, only smaller) for a certain
type of camera. Each cube had 4 tubes that w ould be snapped and give a flash. Rigging up a bunch of these to all go off at the same time would produce a lot of light.

Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/&.src=bc&.view= l)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

BoB- August 18th, 2001, 06:51 PM

I have an 8 d-cell flashlight, I've turned it on at night and been almost completly blinded for several seconds, it uses a normal flashlight bulb which burns up if you leave it on for
too long.

1.5 x 8 = 12.

2 9-volt batterys (thats 18 volts for the people that w ent to public school) would be smaller, A cardboard roll could be lined w ith aluminum plating or foil on one end, a
pushbutton momentary-on sw itch in the side, and the tw o batterys secured in the back.

I like this idea, I think I'm gonna draw some plans.

Energy84 August 19th, 2001, 12:56 AM

Haha, I had a friend who tryed being all cool with light in his car. He hooked up some regular old household light bulbs (100W)to his car stereo (1200W). Stupid guy though,
turns on his stereo, cranks it up, the light blinks once, then nothing, hmm, burnt, hmm, w onder why, oh well, try another.. retard......

why oh w hy didn't I take the blue pill?

Anthony August 19th, 2001, 02:49 PM

Uh, run a mains voltage bulb off the output of an audio amp - yeah right.

BoB, I doubt those little 9v batteries will give anywhere near enough current to give the effect you w ant.

mrloud August 20th, 2001, 11:48 AM

What about using a laser to blind someone? Go to a good electronics supplier and you should be able to pick up a laser diode and driver kit for not too much cost. Forget about
laser pointers, you want a laser w ith some serious output.

In my car I have a 12V spotlight/highbeam lamp on the end of a 30cm stick. It plugs into the cigarette lighter and I keep it on the passenger seat ready to grab and shine out
the rear w indow. I can illuminate low flying clouds with this thing.

Fingerless August 28th, 2001, 06:31 PM

Um, most of the stuff on here is quite illegal to do, you know. But no one actually does it, its strictly for information.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Originally posted by -A-:

So you want a chemical of some sort to break the law ??? forget it...</font>
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Agent Blak August 28th, 2001, 09:34 PM

Try Milling Cayan Pepper in a coffee grinder until it is like flour. Housed in a Soft Drink can have a 10g AP Putty Charge in the center then pour in your Milled Cayan Pepper.
Slightly packed fill the hole can. Sealy up with hot glue and a cardboard disc. when the AP Putty is detonated it w ill spread finely divided Cayan in to the air in a rust coloured
cloud. Cayan is w hat Capsism(OC) is extracted from.

A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Agent Blak August 29th, 2001, 08:59 PM

I work as a cook and am very good at it,. Where I live they call it little Chicago(a Tourism Ploy but, it is good for the economy).
Corn starch is flamable when mixed with air. just something to be warry of. I reccomend the Cayan Pepper Idea.

A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

S. Toppholzer June 8th, 2002, 09:47 AM

<a href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2= HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-
bool.html&r=36&f= G&l=50&co1= AND&d=ft00&s1=grenade&OS= grenade&RS=grenade" target= "_blank">US Patent N 6,253,680</a>
a bit meaner:
US Patent N 5,841,061 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2= HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-
bool.html&r=10&f= G&l=50&co1= AND&d=ft00&s1='flash+powder'&OS="flash+powder"&RS= "flash+ p owder")

<small>[ June 08, 2002, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]< /small>

stanfield June 8th, 2002, 02:27 PM

For a flashbang grenade, w hat about a detonator in a mixture of nitrate/Magnesium ? w ill this work ?

see ya !

zaibatsu June 8th, 2002, 03:03 PM

A detonator? I don't think that would detonate KNO3/Mg. If you meant some form of igniter, I don't think it would w ork very well, as KNO3/Mg is just a fast flare-type comp.

inferno June 9th, 2002, 05:32 AM

Fingerless: what -A- meant by his post is that needing equipment to stun/blind or otherw ise slow down a chasing opponent means he is performing a criminal act such as
robbery, and needs to make a getaway.

What is discussed and dreamt about by the people here is illegal yes, but by defying the law in the w ay we do, w e are not harming other people (unless they happen to enjoy
inspecting packages taped to trees with lit fuses extending out) and is something we all enjoy doing, not something to intentionally harm someone in some way.

The government decided explosives are dangerous and made them illegal because they didnt want irresponsible people hurting themselves, but robbery is a different crime.

stanfield June 9th, 2002, 07:13 AM

I would like to put a detonator in this mixture not to detonate it but to produce a very large flash, the blasting cap w ill send away the binding powder so, the flash will be
increased... this is just an idea, but how military flashbang work ? these flashbang "exploded" ! so it must be a detonator or something like that...

see ya !

Anthony June 9th, 2002, 12:43 PM

I think military/police flashbangs are just fuel-rich flash firecrackers. Or maybe a charge of flash surrounded by a metal fuel, probably Mg.

xoo1246 June 9th, 2002, 03:36 PM

Nope, the flash composition is expelled from the grenade before it's ignited, to give a blinding flash, a bang and not hurt anyone.

YTS June 9th, 2002, 07:55 PM

Standard stun grenades are fuel rich flash as anthony suggested usually w ith rubber casing.I saw a program years ago w here they said the filling was based on firework

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > paraformaldehyde

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stanfield August 20th, 2001, 09:19 AM

I did a search about paraformaldehyde (for RDX production...) :
one guy said you must boil down formaldehyde to obtain paraformaldehyde and an another guy said he obtained nothing with this method...

so, is it possible to make paraformaldehyde (I would like a precise recipe with all steps plz)

see ya !

deezs August 20th, 2001, 10:54 AM

I know one method for "making" paraformaldehyde: let it stand for about 2-3 years. It w orks. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

stanfield August 20th, 2001, 12:13 PM

no shorter way ?

Lagen August 20th, 2001, 12:32 PM

Stanfield: You probably want to make RDX via the E-process, right? I must w arn you! Don't even think of it without procuring some boron trifluoride first! Without it, it will NOT
work (you can be sure, it's tried), and if you heat the mixture above 65C, it might work, but not the w ay you w ould like! Look here (http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
Forum1/HTML/000115.html) for w hat can happen to you. In this case, the failure was probably because no BF3 was added, the guys on that thread failed to point that out.

Regarding the paraformaldehyde: Don't confuse true paraformaldehyde (also called trioxymethylene) w ith polyformal or with the sludge in formaldehyde bottles. The first is a
trimer of formaldehyde, and is useful in some HE syntheses w here the other two can't be used because of their poor solubility. The second one is a polymer (n=10-50), it is
prepared commercially and it's the main ingredient in all those paraformaldehyde disinfectant things. The third one is a mixture of the two. In the E-process, any of the three
can be used. But: It has to be bought, and it ends up being more expensive (even more so because of the BF3 costs) than using good old N-nitration process or K-process.
Secondly, it is next to impossible to make at home. Industrially, it is prepared in vacuum from a formaldehyde solution. Boiling down formaldehyde is bullcrap. And even if you'd
try waiting 1-4 years for your 20 grams of paraformaldehyde sludge in your formol bottle, it might not work at all if there are polymerisation inhibitors added.

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 20, 2001).]

stanfield August 20th, 2001, 03:16 PM

It can't be made at home ??? Why megalomania make it in his labo ? ...

Lagen August 20th, 2001, 03:28 PM

The synthesis on Megalomania's site is for a polymer of acetaldehyde, a completely different thing. But still, if you managed to make paraformaldehyde at home, from
formaldehyde solution, it is more expensive and difficult to get than the equivalent of hexamine (at least for me, I don't know about France).

stanfield August 21st, 2001, 03:33 AM

so, you think, the hexamine/HNO3 method is the best ? (about yield, price,...)

Mr Cool August 21st, 2001, 07:38 AM

Add 160 grams of anhydrous NH4NO3 for every 140 grams of C6H12N4, it w ill improve the yields of this otherw ise fairly crappy method.

stanfield August 21st, 2001, 08:24 AM

You mean I need to put ammonium nirate in my hexamine before nitration ? Are you sure ? I never heard this anywhere... What are consequences about final RDX ?

see ya !

Mr Cool August 21st, 2001, 09:57 AM

You don't need to, but it helps.

C6H12N4 + 4 HNO3 --> C3H6N6O6 + 3 CH2O + NH4NO3

But if you add ammonium nitrate:

C6H12N4 + 4 HNO3 + 2 NH4NO3 --> 2 C3H6N6O6 + 6 H2O

Same amount of hexamine, double the amount of RDX. You won't actually get tw ice as much RDX, but it'll help.

stanfield August 21st, 2001, 11:23 AM

ok, but if I have 100 g of my hexa/nitrate, how much HNO3 do I need ?

thanx !

Lagen August 21st, 2001, 03:17 PM

For every 100g of hexamine, use 140g dry ammonium nitrate (Edit: 115g theoretically, but I find it useful to use some excess) and 570ml HNO3 98+% . For the procedure,
follow the link in my post above, it's at the bottom in Mr Cool's post.

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 21, 2001).]

Rhadon August 24th, 2001, 12:43 PM

From a reliable source I know that paraformaldehyde _is_ formed if formaldehyde stands for a longer time:
"If a formaldehyde solution stands for a certain time [or is induced into sulfuric acid], fine, critalline and colorless polyoxymethylenglycoles with the formula H(O CH2)n OH will form
(n= 8-100). This is paraformaldehyde."
I had some problems with translating the text, what I wasn't sure about is between '[' and ']'.

Mr Cool August 24th, 2001, 01:06 PM

H2SO4 will speed up the polymerisation I believe.

Lagen August 25th, 2001, 08:16 AM

Yes, paraformaldehyde forms in formaldehyde bottles, and that is because of the pH change due to oxidation of formaldehyde to formic acid. But nowadays most formaldehyde
solution has some methanol added to it, w hich gets oxidised instead (forming more formaldehyde) so there is no acidity change and the amount of paraformaldehyde formed is
negligible. The polymer also tends to form at low er temperatures (below 20C) so a common mistake in storing formaldehyde is to put it in the cellar with other stuff. I was
thinking about various ways to remove/oxidise the methanol or to isolate paraformaldehyde from the comercially available solution (not for RDX, but for pentaerythritol
synthesis) and eventually I gave up after I found a great source of pure paraformaldehyde for 2$/lb.
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Rhadon August 25th, 2001, 10:41 AM
This sounds interesting... can you tell us more about this source (not where you exactly got it from)?

Lagen August 25th, 2001, 11:47 AM

Of course, here (http://w ww.lachema-nera.cz/katalog_pdf/chem_p.pdf) is the page of the manufacturer's catalogue referring to it. The company I get it from is a small one,
selling chemicals and microscopy equipment. Based on the todays exchange rate the price w ould be USD 2.06/lb., only 3% higher than the equivalent of formaldehyde solution.
At first I couldn't believe it, too.

Rhadon August 25th, 2001, 01:15 PM

Thanks for this one, Lagen, it'll surely help me!

10fingers August 25th, 2001, 04:23 PM


[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited October 25, 2001).]

Lagen August 25th, 2001, 05:17 PM

From 100g hexamine I would get 316.88g RDX in theory, practically I get 180-210g w ith the ratios I gave. I know there is this strange figure in the Urbanski book, but I don't
know anybody using such ratios. I think eventually everyone (well at least me and Mr Cool, follow the link above to see his initial post) has come to the conclusion that using a
slight stoichiometric excess of AN is enough for the batch-type-no-recycling process of the home manufacturer. I notice a lot of people here planning on "recycling" their nitric
acid from the nitration mixtures. You w on't see me doing anything like that... Only factories w ith on-line analytical systems can afford that. I am scared enough by the unstable
nature of some of the nitrolysis byproducts. Some of them can explode even in solution! I better distill some more fresh nitric acid - which is inexpensive for me - and play it
safe. After all, I have had my share of accidents! Every time I pour the spent nitrolysis mixture into a great excess of cold water, then add a kilo or so of sodium carbonate to it.
And flush it down the drain with plenty of water, or when I can be bothered, take it out to the fields and dump it into the ground. (It's a great fertilizer, isn't it?) BTW, nitric acid
is the best enamel cleaner I know of... And it won't damage the enamel like hydrochloric acid does. Now, more seriously... Back to the factory and the recycling of HNO3. I'd
*guess* the purpose of the great excess of AN in the Urbanski formula is to enable the recycling of both HNO3 and AN. Note the sentence where he says "the w aste acid, after
filtering out the remanent RDX, is cooled dow n to -12C. Ammonium-trinitrate (NH4NO3.2HNO3) crystallizes. This is separated in the centrifuge and recycled into the reactor."
[Sorry for possible crappy language, I don't have the English version of the book.]

Lagen August 25th, 2001, 05:58 PM

Oh and I forgot to comment on the economy of the process... Yes it is a shit load of nitric acid. But hey, you get RDX, the military's beloved HE! It's just as good as HMX at
similar densities... All in all I'm glad to have such a simple process for making such a good HE. For me it just means getting more H2SO4 and dirt cheap fertilizer. The time and
energy is unimportant for me, I have automated the boiling and distillation process...
There is hardly any way to avoid the great excess of HNO3. Water is produced in the process. RDX, like any secondary nitramine, is incompatible w ith sulfuric acid, hence w ith
any nitration mixture containing it (designed to absorb the resulting water). At lower densities, the nitrating and esterificating properties of HNO3 are lost, oxidation processes
prevail. To keep the concentration above 80% throughout the process, the initial conc. must be as high as possible and unfortunately, the great excess of HNO3 must be used. I
should imagine one could use a mixture of a metal nitrate and acetic anhydride, but that doesn't help too much...
Regarding PETN, yes, convenient process, if you can get hold of PE! Making it, especially making the acetaldehyde for the synth, is a pain in the ass. And storing it is difficult,
given its b.p. of 21C.

Mr Cool August 25th, 2001, 07:06 PM

You could polymerise it to paraldehyde or metaldehyde.
But RDX is probably easier. For some reason I like it more too. Personally I use probably too much hexamine compared to the amount of HNO3, to make sure that the acid is
used to its full potential. I don't care if I waste hexamine.

P.S. - I think someone was asking earlier about the order of adding the hexamine and AN. Well I add all the AN first.

[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited August 25, 2001).]

10fingers August 25th, 2001, 07:45 PM


[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited October 25, 2001).]

Lagen August 25th, 2001, 08:11 PM

The problem is that distilling the nitric acid (Edit: the w ay people here want to do it) is the point at which the mixture might decide to explode. It's not because of RDX, there
are lots of various byproducts (linear, branched and polycyclic nitro compounds - see Urbanski) which are super sensitive. I don't know any convenient method of removing or
decomposing them. What you describe seems to me as if they created a solution of AN in nitric acid having such a concentration that it can be plugged into the reaction mixture
again. Obviously the main purpose is to extract the tw o moles of nitric acid and absorb them in the crystalline "trinitrate", which can be separated.
Regarding the chems prices: I am not surprised by the high cost of OTC 99% nitric acid. In Europe it is impossible to get, or the price is even more prohibitive. The highest conc.
sold here is something like 65-70% . I must also straighten out one thing: The prices are different in Western and Eastern Europe. I quote the eastern prices, most of the
European members on this board probably get the higher West European prices which are more close to the American niveau.

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 25, 2001).]

Tony Montana August 25th, 2001, 09:04 PM

Lagen, could you treat your waste HNO3 with H2SO4 and CH2CL2? H2SO4 would dehydrate the HNO3, and the CH2CL2 would then absorb the now anhydrous HNO3 and repel
the H2O/H2SO4. Using an eyedropper you could then extract the CH2CL2/HNO3 layer, then distilling that at around 40*C. The CH2CL2 would leave quickly, taking back any
HNO3 that was wasted. Boiling the H2O off the H2SO4, w ould leave no waste at all. I have also dreamed of producing several batches of RDX using only, HNO3 and C6H12N4.
Are there any distinct advantages with the addition of NH4NO3 as I have also never heard of this?? Also Lagen, you say you have automated most of the process, it would be
great if you could tell us how you went about this, or even posting a few diagrams or pics would be much appreciated.

Mr Cool August 26th, 2001, 08:17 AM

Yes, adding NH4NO3 increases the yield, I'd say that this was an advantage.

Lagen August 26th, 2001, 12:00 PM

The core of the system is a temperature measuring station w ith 14 standard K-type thermocouple inputs and 2 duty-cycle inputs for measuring ambient temperature. Then
theres a board with a 8055WD which controls the whole thing. One could think of it as a mirocontroller prototype board w ith many customised inputs/outputs, not an industrial
type controller, because the industry mostly uses PGAs and PLCs (I hate them). Of course the watchdog is the most important part of the system! How it w orks: There is plenty
of thermocouples you can attach at various points of the reaction apparatus. They range from -40 to 1000C, can take most acids and if you really abuse them, they are cheap
(3$). The accuracy is +-0.5C ABSOLUTE over the whole range, and as w ith any thermocouple, the response is very fast. Either they are immersed in the reaction medium, or I
attach them to glassware with a special heat-conducting paste. So I don't use mercury thermometers anymore... Other sensors I am using currently are primitive ones - water
level, and the one I made for the nitric acid is a simple optics focusing green light from a LED and sensing it with a phototransistor, to detect acid dripping. Action members
include a servo for valves, a few magnetic valves, power switches, a spark gap, and the most important "action member" - a panel with superbright LEDs to notify me when the
thing is done. Then there's a manually sw itched temperature display on the measuring station. It is nothing very advanced, to do a particular job I change the w hole program in
the 8055. For boiling sulfuric acid you just need one temperature channel and a SSR/optotriac to switch the hotplate on/off. The program is simple - after the temperature rises
to somew here between 330-340C and stays there for a few minutes, turn the hotplate off. Instead of the red light, a green one lights up, not unlike at a gas station. The point
for me is that I don't need to babysit the apparatus and attend to it only when necessary. For nitric acid distillation, a heating mantle is too expensive for me (500-1000$) so I
use a gas stove and a water bath. Three thermocouples are attached around the circumference of the distillation flask, another one goes into the flask from the top, another one
is directly in the burner, and one is in the cooling bath of the receiving flask. The program tries to maintain proper temperature by turning the valve on the stove, if it gets really
too hot the valve is stopped completely. After cooling down an ignition transformer (?) fires a series of sparks through the spark gap while the valve is being opened. Successful
ignition is checked by the extra temperature sensing point (thermometer couldn't do it, right?) The regulation algorithm is nothing too sophisticated, it uses empirical constants
which are related to the particular glassware setup. In the distant future I might improve it to solve differential equations http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif so
it could quickly adapt itself to the particular physical system but that's sci-fi at the moment. If the water level in the bath gets too low, a small magnetic valve lets in w ater from
the mains. Similarly, if the temperature at the cooling flask gets too high, a valve replaces the bath w ith a cool one from the mains, the used w ater overflows to the drain.
When the dripping stops for a preset period of time, the whole thing shuts down. Sorry, I don't have pictures and won't have them in the near future, as I don't have a digital

EventHorizon August 26th, 2001, 09:08 PM

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I'm sure there are plenty of people here with scanners that would be glad to receive some hard copies and scan and post them here for us all to see. http://

Lagen August 27th, 2001, 03:02 PM

OK if you are interested I will make a few pictures sometime this week and scan them at school over the weekend. I don't have much time as the college has already started
for me and I must do (retry http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif) 2 more exams.

Lagen August 27th, 2001, 05:16 PM

I just thought it might fit w ithin the theme of this topic, as we mentioned the problems in storing acetaldehyde here... Today I visited a friend at a chemical research institute,
the name of which I won't mention. I asked: "Do you have acetaldehyde here?" "Yes." "How do you store it?" She asked the other people: "The stuff that exploded in the
fridge, was it acetaldehyde?" "No." So we had to find the people working with it, they just said "It's in the cabinet." I said "No, if it was in the cabinet it would have exploded!"
(It was 30C here today.) I made them find the bottles. And there it was, a happy Fluka bottle w ith acetaldehyde, the label just said "Store at 0-4C" and there w as an extra
yellow-red label affixed saying "Warning! Internal pressure may be present!" I asked them "How do you open it?" "We just unscrew it slowly enough!" And I was like
"Ohmigod!" but it looked like I was just picking up on them for details. And up to the present I haven't dared to ask for acetaldehyde at chem supplies shops because I didn't
have a portable freezer box w ith me! So, what do you think, storing chemicals in ordinary bottles above their b.p. is OK?

Tony Montana August 29th, 2001, 10:24 PM

I have not had the pleasure of dealing with this nasty stuff, yet. But it does sound dangerous! I personnally w ould not take the risk of storing this chemical unless I was
completely prepared. If I really needed it, I would purchase a bottle use what I needed and dispose of the rest, take it to a suitable place and put it in the sun and retreat to a
safe distance. This would prove to be fun, and would give me valuble practical know ledge of how far you can actually push it.

[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited August 29, 2001).]

stanfield August 30th, 2001, 12:46 PM

My paraformaldehyde source is MERCK. Is this paraformaldehyde ready for RDX synthesis ? I don't understand your trifluoride problem... Megalomania dont talk about this stuff

Mr Cool August 30th, 2001, 12:53 PM

Tony: that might be "fun", but it would spray toxic, irritating, flammable, carcinogenic, mutagenic acetaldehyde all over the place. Is that really a good idea? It'd be bettr I think
to burn it if you want to get rid of it.
But why can't paraldehyde be used instead?

stanfield September 1st, 2001, 01:56 PM

So, Lagen (or anybody else...), could you explain to me the "trifluoride problem" ... ?


Mr Cool September 1st, 2001, 05:11 PM

I believe BF3 is a catalyst which allows the cyclic structure to form.
I'm not totally sure though...

stanfield September 1st, 2001, 06:16 PM

Why Megalomania don't prevent/talk about this stuff ?

stanfield September 7th, 2001, 04:45 PM

Maybe, I have found a reseller for paraformaldehyde, it sells 1kg for 33$, is it a correct price ?


cutefix September 9th, 2001, 02:44 AM

Boron trifluoride is a toxic gas, and would be difficult to incorporate it as a catalyst for home synthesis w hich is very effective for
acetylation,alkylation,polymerization,condensation reaction.The most common liquid catalyst made from BF3, is boron trifluoride etherate;(C2H5)2BF3;made by vapor phase
reaction of anhydrous ether and boron trifluoride.This is a reactive material and a fire hazard(due to presence of ether).There are other BF3 solutions such as alcohols,and acetic
acid.I think the latter is suitable in replacing the difficult to handle BF3gas( in small scale/laboratory operation?).Besides the reacting medium contains acetic anhydride.So if the
reaction needs 0.4% pure BF3 and these BF3 acetic acid complex contains 33%,then you can add 1.2% of the acetic acid/BF3 complex.For product details check this:
http://ww w.fishersci.ca/msds.nsf/96cb2019dad1311a85256670001d92b9/15fc8532ec01c0e4852566f1000366a5?OpenDocumentand for BF3 itself see this:
I think the use of these catalyst is desirable only in industrial operation

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > Liar Exposed! (formerly P.E 4 And A Car)

Log in
View Full Version : Liar Exposed! (formerly P.E 4 And A Car)

Victim August 20th, 2001, 12:48 PM

*One* has just got hold of half a kilo (1lb) of P.E 4, and as one lives in the middle of nowhere, *one* decided, that the old
car thats on my field would be a nice thing to test out the new "fly for a second" propellant for cars, I have put in a picture of
the P.E 4, the set wire, and the det cap, (all mil spec - nothing improvised here)
And was wondering, where would be the best place to place the charge for the most damage to a car, the car has no petrol in
the tank unfortuantly, and if *one* does plan do carry this out, I may not be able to film it as I don't have a video camera,
but I might be able to get a before and after shot. This should prove intresting, so, just some feedback on the best place to
place the charge for the most damage.
http://www.angelfire.com/linux/thevictim/images/pe4.GIF The P.E 4, The Det Wire, The Det Cap.
EDIT: - The reason I havent posted this in High Explosives is although the explosive mentioned is a high explosive, im talking
more about the use of high explosives, therefore I have posted it in this section.

[This message has been edited by Victim (edited August 20, 2001).]

10fingers August 20th, 2001, 01:04 PM

Sounds like fun, wish I could see it!
I would place the charge under the car as close to the center as possible. If you could put some sandbags around the charge it
would direct the force upward, thereby gaining more vertical lift.

Victim August 20th, 2001, 01:08 PM

I was thinking about making up two charges on the same det line, but placing one next to the engine, and the other on the
back seat, and maybe have a 5gallon of petrol sitting next to the change in the back, as we all like to see some fire damage
hehe http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif, if all goes as planned and my pussy mates are daring enough
*one* will do it either friday or saturday, so I will keep you posted : o)

"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."

Mr Cool August 20th, 2001, 02:47 PM

You got a pound of military P.E.4? How did you do that you lucky bastard?!
Anyway, that sounds VERY fun, it'd be great if you could get before and after shots for us to see.
Personally, I prefer no gasoline fireball, but it's your explosive so do what ever makes you happy! Fireballs remind me of
shitty action films where the pyrotechnician doesn't know what he's doing, and uses petrol and detcord to simulate a bomb.

10fingers August 20th, 2001, 03:02 PM

I forgot to ask, what is P.E. 4? I agree with Mr. Cool on the gasoline, it may not even work.

[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited August 22, 2001).]

Mr Cool August 20th, 2001, 03:05 PM

I'm not very sure of it's exact ingredients, but I'm guessing it's an RDX and/or PETN based Plastic Explosive.

Victim August 20th, 2001, 03:27 PM

I will explain here for those of you that don't know how to attach picture's to a post, first of all you need to upload your picture
to a server like angelfire.com or something (angelfire.com will let you link pictures but only if there .GIF files) then all you do
is type in the following replacing the " " for < and >
"img src="the location of your picture.gif" its as easy as that. If you don't understand, tell me and I will eMAIL you with a more
easier to understand explantion.
Edit: I forgot to write my bloody reply lol, well neways, I got the PE4 from a friend whom is the kind of bloke you meet in a
shady pub down London. (no offense to anyone from London) The whole lot only cost me 80, so not a bad deal, Reading
your reply's I do agree that the fireball effect is "TV'ish" so I've scrapped that, but what do you think on the area to actually
place the charge? middle of car? under the car? engine block? I thought about 4 seperate charges all rigged together, and
place one each under the rim of the type for max damage? I don't know much about using explosives to cause the max
damage, but *one* has used this stuff before, and it feels like that window putty, but warm.

[This message has been edited by Victim (edited August 20, 2001).]

phyrelord August 20th, 2001, 03:44 PM

if you put it under the back end of the car you would more than likely flip the car up into the air because the weight of the
motor will hold down the fron of the motor. If you're going for looks inside the engine bay would be best because the motor
and the firewall will contain the pressure and send the hood off into space. not to mention make one hell of a fireball.
Something I would do is try to cut the car in half. Put the explosive on every sturdy beam under the car or make it a
convertable by blowing off all of the door posts. Hey no matter what have fun.

Mr Cool August 20th, 2001, 05:44 PM

I don't know what the best place to put it would be. I think maybe right in the middle of the car, or on/in the engine. Or you
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could mix a load of .25" ball bearings in with the P.E.4, and turn the car into a giant pepper pot.
But I think have all the explosive in one place.
Hehehe, if your mate gets any more of that stuff, tell him I'm interested!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

www.ribbands.co.uk (http://www.ribbands.co.uk) sell an inert training version of P.E.4, perhaps you could extract and use the
plasticiser from it? It's not controlled, but sold only to legitimate users. 4 for 8oz, so maybe a bit expensive.

Victim August 20th, 2001, 08:38 PM

Yup, the white stuff is det cord, and I was planning on setting it electronically (as I don't wanna do it with a 6second fuse like
*one* normally does http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif)
For setting it *ones* decided to place it on on five parts of the car,
back left wheel
back right wheel
front left wheel
front right wheel
under the axle of the car
I belive this will give it the most damage, and may cut the car in half, if not, at least fucking the car to nothingness http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif which is what we like http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
I've just brought some film for my camera (polroid camera) and I thought they were cheaper than the ones I normally get,
and now I know why, there fucking black and white, im extreamy pissed off at that. And costing 13 for 10 picture's, is a
pisstake as well, but ah well they will do. *One'll" get some picture's of the charge before I set it and everything, I will try to
get some mid explosion picture's, but people whom have tried taking pictures mid explosion will tell you how bloody hard this
is, as you like you like to watch the explosion with your eye, not through the viewfinder of a camera/video camera.
Well anyways, with all the excitment, I've bullied my friends into doing it tomorrow (wait I mean today as its 12:39 on the
21'st) so I will post the picture's after I've scanned them in that *one* just happend to find in a bin on the way home http://

"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."

BoB- August 20th, 2001, 10:28 PM

Shit, dude if thats detcord you might as well back up the main charge with some ever-cleansing firebombs http://

megalomania August 21st, 2001, 01:17 AM

When the do this in the movies, they make a mortar section in the center of the car facing down. A plate is welded on top of
the mortar (in side the car) and a sho rt leng th of telephone pole is put in th e mortar as the proje ctile. Its a big ass diamete r
of wooden telephone pole to boot. The explosive shoots out the pole and flips the car up into the air. Additional explosive
mortars aimed at the doors and the hood makes everything fly open. I would think that in terms of pure explosive damage
placing the charge in the engine compartment would tear the metal to shreds and rip most of the car apart. Placing it
underneath the front may get you damage and effect. You may also want to place a dummy in the drivers seat and locate the
explosive underneath the seat, if you want to practice assassination techniques.

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

Victim August 22nd, 2001, 11:26 AM

I've just got back from sett..aherm, "watching" the car off, and OH my bloody ears! there still ringing, and I was like over
400meter's away, I put the charge under the middle of the car, apart from what I said, I found a peice of thin metal in the
boot of the car (it cover'd the spare wheel in the boot) So I bent it in half and then opened it up so it was in a "\/" shape, I
turned it over so it was
"/\" and put the charge on top of the /\, set the det, an then the det wire (adrenanline [sp?] pumping now) and legged it to
the "safe zone" and pressed the det and BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!
then goes the frantic run down to see what was left of the car, before we (the spectators http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
smilies/wink.gif) legged it before the cops turned up.
Well picture's as promissed..
http://www.angelfire.com/linux/thevictim/images/pic1.GIFThe Det Cord.
http://www.angelfire.com/linux/thevictim/images/pic3.GIFThe Aftermath.
btw, I decided to go with the fireball, and placed a 5liter bottol of petrol next to the charge.

"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."

Donutty August 22nd, 2001, 02:27 PM


Well done. Well done indeed my friend. And I though *I* lived in the middle of no-where!

1/2 kg of PE4 did that? Damn! Looks, seriously, like a bomb hit it!

mongo blongo August 22nd, 2001, 03:13 PM

Wow!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/eek.gif
That must have been fuckin cool!!
That car is really fucked up!!
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Nice job with on the fireball!!
Damn i wish i could do something that big where i live but it's a very long way to where there s a place with no people. http://
Well done dude!

Victim August 22nd, 2001, 03:43 PM

Thank ya :>, ja, it was very very very fecking loud, also very cool, (not in a kewl way).
It was all good, after seeing/hearing the bloody big bang, me and my pussy mates legged it down to see what was left of the
car, shit was still raining down, and there was a little fire going on with on the seats, don't know if you can see the smoke on
the seat, but ah, the joy, total madness, lol my mate got into the other seat (well what was left of it) and started all the
gimicks, "Oi, someones been using my car, look it, I think it needs a car wash!" and all sorts of crap, it was a laugh, but after
the pics were took and a few mins messing about we legged it as we didn't wanna get caught now, (although we were only
spectators http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif). If ya get some excitment out of seeing those photo's belive
me, you would have been creaming yourself when it went off! It was total madness! Total fun!

"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."

DoH BoY August 22nd, 2001, 05:28 PM

wow thats pretty frikin' sweet. I guess u could call me dumb but i never knew that a pound of explosive could do tht much
damage! NICE JOB!

EP August 23rd, 2001, 12:51 AM

Well done! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

SATANIC August 23rd, 2001, 02:46 AM

look out for it in the local papers, it'll have to turn up! well done, explosive damage rating: EXTREME

Disturbed August 23rd, 2001, 03:23 AM

Victim, how did you set up the detwire? did you wire it on door panels, etc, or just lump it next to the main charge?

Demolition August 23rd, 2001, 08:52 AM

Did the car get airborn?
Look Mummy,a flying car.http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif


Disturbed August 23rd, 2001, 10:26 AM

Nevermind.. I didn't look over your one post [right b4 mega's] too closely...

megalomania August 23rd, 2001, 05:53 PM

Oh Victim,

Certain... "discrepancies" have been brought to my attention concerning the validity of your photographs. You wouldn't happen
to have anything to say about that would you?

SafetyLast August 23rd, 2001, 08:52 PM

What do you mean mega? do you think that they aren't valid and that there are flaws in them?
What discrepancies are you talking about?

mongo blongo August 23rd, 2001, 09:48 PM

mmmmmm... I can't see anything wrong with them except that the pic at the top is in colour and these are in black and white.
I just thought that they would look better in colour. Why are they in black and white?

SATANIC August 23rd, 2001, 10:31 PM

i must ask, what do you think is wrong?

(i was thinking, it wouldn't be hard to fake that, from pics on the net, )

now, come to think of it, all you would have to do would be to take pics and paste them over the top of the polaroid scan. look
closely, an the folds etc. in the bottom of the polaroid edges all look funnily the same. also, the car in the bottom pic looks
out of scale. (too thin vertically), as though someone has tried to make it fit ot the edges of the border.

not saying you faked it, but it does raise doubts. even so, your story seems to check out, and i wouldn't hold it against you.
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EventHorizon August 24th, 2001, 12:01 AM
I'm no polaroid expert but that looks like the picture is on the back of the polaroid film as I recall the front side being a
smooth writing surface. The serial #'s look the same too, but that could just be the batch number or something.

More: I looked closer and it appears that some of the pictures edges overlap the seem, there is the identical dark spot at the
lower left corner and one of the pics show a small black part that would be consistent with the black background of the reverse
side of a polaroid. Again, I'm no expert, but Mega might be onto something. Victim, we are anxiously awaiting your rebutle.

[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited August 23, 2001).]

ALENGOSVIG1 August 24th, 2001, 12:36 AM

Originately posted by anthony in Staff Only section:

*Each polaroid has the same serial number

*He managed to take a photo mid way of an explosion with a stills camera?
*There is no mark along the ground caused by the det cord
*The guy holding the detcord is about 40 years old, I seriously doubt Victim is over 18
*The second photo is set further left than the others
*The creases in each polaroid are indentical
*The pic of a det cord looks just like teh thing you'd find on an education website
*looking at the car, the damage doesn't seem consistant with the seize or placement of the charge.
*Also it's debatable whether the car is in the same location in both pics.

How much power will you lose if you do not know what they already know?

Explosives Archive (http://surf.to/alexplo)

DoH BoY August 24th, 2001, 12:42 AM

Yeah these pictures definatly do look like they were copied and pasted.
Take a look at the pictures of the explotion(pic #2) and then look at the picture of the wreked car (pic #3). compair the back
ground. one has trees and the other doesnt.
Also take a look at the sky they are a completly different colour.
I wonder, is there really such a thing as black and white polaroid film.
And, oh yeah, why would victim suddenly change his mind about adding that fire ball effect?
Also notice how victim has not responded yet.
I wonder why.

[This message has been edited by DoH BoY (edited August 23, 2001).]

Disturbed August 24th, 2001, 02:24 AM

One other thing.. don't polaroid pic's 'bleed' a little color over the edges, not leaving a razorsharp edge like those pic's have?
But one thing in his defense.. for the explosion pic you could prolly snap a pic of the fireball w/out too much trouble, you'd
have prolly 1-2 sec to get one..
But after looking closely I'd have to agree w/ you guys, it looks faked

EP August 24th, 2001, 03:08 AM

Yeah, they do look a bit odd. If they are fake, do you think he should be banned?


Your actually being talked about getting banned in the Staff Only section so watch out.

[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited August 24, 2001).]

Tony Montana August 24th, 2001, 03:42 AM

Give me back my extension cord!

Demolition August 24th, 2001, 03:43 AM

I must agree,those photos are fake.As I use a Polaroid camera I examined my pictures.This is what I found.
*All of my photos have the same serial number.
*The photo is on the front side,it is completely smooth while the serial number and POLAROID is on the back just above the
the rectangle of soft stuff (not sure what it is called)
On Victim's pictures all photos are on the back with the serial number and POLAROID stamp.Also,if you look at pic # 1 you can
see that the serial number and POLAROID stamp are slightly protruding on the actual picture.
What's the go???

jin August 24th, 2001, 03:45 AM

i remember from a few years ago some one from wales uk got hold of two sticks of pe4 from a solider and stored it in there
house with the detonators in the pe4 it went off from static or something and the house was flattend like a pancake.
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Demolition August 24th, 2001, 04:09 AM

Heres two of my polaroids.They are not from the same pack but for some reason they have the same serial number.This is
the back side.The picture is on the otherside.
Sorry about the size of the pictures but my Photoshop 5 isnt working for me at the moment.


BoB- August 24th, 2001, 04:47 AM

In his defense, he couldve just touched up the quality of the photos for our benefit.

If someone has a high quality photo-editing software, they could examine the photos for layers.

EventHorizon August 24th, 2001, 09:59 AM

"In his defense..." He should have stated that the photos had been touched up. There are a lot of intelligent people here that
are very detail oriented, he should have known better. I don't think he should be banned for this, he's been caught and in the
future anything he posts will be scrutinized. This also serves as a lesson to others.

Jhonbus August 24th, 2001, 10:04 AM

I examined the photos in close detail a couple of days ago, and pointed out to anthony most of the things that have been
stated by people in this thread. Let's see what Victim has in terms of explanations before we all start off on a big witch hunt.

Victim August 24th, 2001, 10:09 AM

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I've only just got back online, my shitty ISP wouldent let me log onto my account untill I rang
them this morning and gave them a mouthfull.
On another note. I am offended at whomever is doubting the validness of these photo's, I'm no photo expert, and certainly
not with Polaroid's, but I would take a guess that the photo's from the same film cartridge (the thing you put into the camera)
has a serial number, and therefore the photo/s have the same serial number, I've no idea, but I belive me, *one* was there,
and *one* was taking the pictures.
SATANIC, No mention on/in the papers/news yet.
Disturbed, the det wire was set to the charge with the det cap, and the det cap placed in the charge, the det wire was set off
Demolition, as predicted, my new fuel does make cars fly http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
megalomania, If you don't belive me, fine everyones entitled to an objection no?
IF someone would PLEASE get out there expensive editing software, and prove me wrong then I will bow down to you all, as I
know for a fact how valid these photo's are. And if anyone would like me to place my cookies on a site or somewhere, so you
know the site's I've been visiting, so you can then see for yourself that these pictures are not "thrid party" photo's.
ALENGOSVIG1, I've stated my waffle on the serial's, I honestly have no idea about that. Zaibatsu is our I belive, resident
camera/photo expert.
Soon as the det we pressed the photo shutter was pressed, ask the other people who take films, it isn't that hard to get a still
from a moving object.
"the guy holding the det cord is about 40 years old, I seriously doubt Victim is over 18", FYI, I am 37, and I would like to know
how you made your snap judgement.

I have nothing else to add, only that, as a whole, I feel dampend by some of you, like I said before, if you don't belive me
then thats fine you know, as were all like to be the critic once in a while, I have nothing more to add, so therefore, I shall
leave the debating to you.

"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."

DoH BoY August 24th, 2001, 10:28 AM

u coward! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

Mr Cool August 24th, 2001, 12:51 PM

I was going to see if I could buy/swap for some pentaerythrite or something 10 grams of the PE4 from him, but he detonated
it before I got a chance to e-mail him with my proposition. If only I'd acted sooner, I could've settled this argument.
I'm not sure if I believe the photos or not. I am suspicious about the identical creases, markings etc, and the different looking
backgrounds on the explosion shot and the wreckage. Also, it seems to me that the picture of his hands is odd. For both
hands to fit in and be in focus, the camera would've had to have been quite far away. But if it was far enough away, I think it
would've got in more background than that... Also the skies look very different, and the photos are conveniently b&w, which
makes it harder to spot differences in vegetation etc.

[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited August 24, 2001).]

Victim August 24th, 2001, 01:02 PM

Mr Cool, I wish I would have gotten a email from you sooner as well, as you would have been able to settle this. Ah well I
suppose, think whatever you like, not that you don't, well all have the right to be a critic.
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DoH BoY August 24th, 2001, 04:00 PM
Come on Victim we all know this whole thing is obviously a fake. Why cant u just admit it?
And why are u trying to make us feel bad about uncovering the truth about ur cheap hoax?
well its no wonder u feel "dampened" by some of us, u tried to fool us and u failed.

Anthony August 24th, 2001, 04:24 PM

Victim, if you scanned these in, how did you manage to get the actual photos perfectly straight? (1 pixel all the way down) The
edge of the polaroid isn't straight.

Showing us your cookies proves nothing, it's hardly difficult to delete any naughty ones.

You're 37? Your thread with the masterlock (http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000936.html) shows your,
obviously teenage hand. You also state that your father is a builder, if you were 37 your father would be retired.

Tell you what, scan your arm with the tatoo as seen in the det cord photo.

Donutty August 24th, 2001, 04:44 PM

37? I though you were 20. On your MSN profile it says you are!


BrAiNFeVeR August 24th, 2001, 08:36 PM

I agree, something sure smell fishy here (and it isn't me !!)
Where in England can U find such an open field, I always thought of England as a place that was nearly full of buildings ???
Victim, can you give us an address of the place ?? (street names, cities in the vicinity, ...)
Victim, if you don't admit you're a fraud, you 're just going to loose the little bit of credibility you still have ...

edit = spelling
"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

[This message has been edited by BrAiNFeVeR (edited August 24, 2001).]

Tony Montana August 24th, 2001, 09:35 PM

For what its worth you still have not explained how your magic polaroid camera, prints the picture on the wrong side of the
film,(Probly your worst mistake)??
How pictures obviously overlap, and dont generally fit the polaroid frame???
How the exact same crease is on every polaroid, which makes it obvious that it is the same one polaroid film???
How your insulting our intelligence by denying the obvious??? (do we appear this gullible to you??) What a wicked path we

EP August 24th, 2001, 09:41 PM

Maddoc - I apologize. Why are you talking about banning me? If you tell me why I will stop at once.

- Just messing with ya!

[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited August 25, 2001).]

mongo blongo August 24th, 2001, 10:29 PM

lol nice one Anthony that's a good one scan victim's arm in! He can not say no to that one because he obviously must have a
Those Polaroid "backgrounds" are exactly the same, identical. I can't believe i didn't see that before! I have no dought in my
mind that these are fake!
We await the pic of your tattooed arm Victim!
Busted http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

shooter3 August 25th, 2001, 01:41 AM

I don't want to get in on the details, I'm not an expert. I'm not accusing victim either, but I want to point out that law
enforcement types try to gain the confidence of their targets. Like the stings they set up for internet child molesters(more
power to them)they may possibly be trying to sting the forum. Total conjecture on my part, but a possibility. Sorry for any
typos, my popnot won't let me use spellcheck.

CyclonitePyro August 25th, 2001, 02:30 AM

I just scanned some photos to put on ebay, and my program microsof photosuiteIII automaticly perfectly centers the photos
for you.
I don't know a bout the rest of the stuff though, wow this is real detectives case.

-A- August 25th, 2001, 04:35 AM

Well, I must say that given the discrepancies before mentioned, and the one that I saw immediately (which is that every photo
is the same, given the creases, the small spot on the low left, etc.) I must say that this is obviously a fake. Other things that I
-Look at the first picture. Look the cord. It has jagged edges, why?
-Compare the resolution of photos 1 and 3 with the one in the middle, the one of the explosion. It has better sharpness and
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-I can't see fire damage on the car surface. Nothing on the paint.
-I don't know what speed has the shutter of a polaroid, but the explosion picture has almost perfect focus, too difficult in
something that is moving as fast as an explosion, it should probably have some motion blur.
-He buys military equipment to a friend in a bar, posts that he is going to detonate a car and two days later he is posting
photos of the explosion and the car?. If it is that easy, then the ETA wouldn't have problems to detonate all the island.

DarkAngel August 25th, 2001, 08:17 AM

Victim this is your site right?
(from the suggestion box forum)

You can see movies of you playing with Sodium Chlorate and making fires in the woods,common your not 37 man.


For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)


Mr Cool August 25th, 2001, 11:48 AM

Brainfever: we do have plenty of open fields here in England.

Victim: you're not 37. I just looked at your site.

Anthony August 25th, 2001, 02:37 PM

*everyone* should go see Victim's wonderful site! The disclaimer even states that you must ask victim's permission before
trying anything shown on the site! Oh Victim, pleeeease may I have your permission to pointlessly smash up the trolley bay at

The disclaimer also details how kewl bomberz are not welcome - oh the irony!

Thankyou for bringing yourself to our attention with this dumb fake pictures crap, you were almost one kewl bomer lamer that
went unnoticed!

Some stuff from his site (may take a while to load as Victim thinks 400Kb pictures are kewl):

"Howdy partner, can I sell you some fake PE4???"

"What you can't see is the invisible pole up my arse"

"Hey Dean(Victim), I've had a better idea for that stick of PE4!!!"

DoH BoY August 25th, 2001, 05:58 PM


======= => (_)_)

PE4 up the ass (arse)
(victim's face http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/mad.gif )


[This message has been edited by DoH BoY (edited August 25, 2001).]

kingspaz August 25th, 2001, 06:24 PM

well i haven't added my opinion yet so here it is - FAKE!!! in addition to other points raised look at the damage to the car on
the bottom right of picture 3. fucking bullshit!

megalomania August 25th, 2001, 07:01 PM

Did anybody happen to catch the special about bomb investigations on TLC this past Thursday? During a bit about the FBI's
bomb training school they strapped 3 sticks of high explosive in each of two different cars. The blast hardly destroyed the
vehicles at all. It did tear them up and send debris flying, but neither moved, neither burst into flames, and both looked very
much intact (considering they got bombed).

If only 500g of PE-4 was used (as stated in your first post as to how much you bought), why such a vast amount of damage to
your car? It would take several Kg of high explosive to do that much damage.

All questions of tampering aside, there may be some good excuses as to why these photographs were doctored. They
obviously have been, that is a matter of fact. The question now is why, and to what end?
Were they digital snapshots you framed on polaroid film to add effect? That would explain the film being the same in each
pic. A simple answer.
Were these photo's taken days apart? That would explain the different skyline. Although the background terrain is still
different, perhaps it's just a different angle. Another simple answer.
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The fact that you have not provided any simple explanations as to why these pics have been doctored is a cause in itself to
suspect malfeasance on your part.
I'll not ban you for it, you have not violated any rule here, you have even adhered to our "theoretical" theme with your fiction.
You will however have lost the respect of every member, and will be watched very carefully for any future violation.

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

Tony Montana August 26th, 2001, 02:17 AM

Fair enough Mega, the whole thing doesnt really even bother me. But a few thing have caught my attention,

Mega sayas "Were they digital snapshots you framed on polaroid film to add effect?"

Victim said before he even posted the pictures "I've just brought some film for my camera (polroid camera) and I thought
they were cheaper than the ones I normally get, and now I know why, there fucking black and white, im extreamy pissed off at

Mega says" Were these photo's taken days apart?"

Victims accounts of the incident, written above and beside the pictures clearly states him saying it happened quickly, victims
quote "We legged it before the cops turned up".

And the fact that he made a point of saying this quote "I've bullied my friends into doing it tomorrow". Made me think twice
about this REAL LIFE VICTIM! PS: there are many other things that I could add but cant be fucked.

10fingers August 26th, 2001, 11:10 AM

That photo of the stick of P.E. 4 looks similar in size to a stick of dynamite, which is 1 in.x 8 in. A stick of dynamite only
weighs 1/2 pound or 227 grams. Unless this P.E. 4 is very dense I doubt whether the stick shown can weigh 500 grams as
stated by Victim.
Even accepting the claim that it is 1/2 kilo it seems like a large explosion and a lot of damage to the vehicle for this amount
of explosive. I would guess that it was more like 3 or 4 lbs.

[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited August 26, 2001).]

DarkAngel August 27th, 2001, 04:43 AM

Is it just me or did Victim removed his site after my post?


For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)


BrAiNFeVeR August 27th, 2001, 10:56 AM

It definitely isn't just you, it's me too !!
Victim (a very appropriate nickname these days) probably went apeshit about revealing more information about himself, so he
closed down his site. I think it will eventually pop up somewhere else, with a different layout or something...

Victim, we're all still waiting for your humble confession !

"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

DoH BoY August 27th, 2001, 12:48 PM

Well I just visited the site and it's back now and like brainfever said, in a different layout.

Anthony August 27th, 2001, 05:16 PM

Nope, it's still 404

megalomania August 27th, 2001, 09:23 PM

It's just as well, I don't like to look at naked man ass.

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

Disturbed August 28th, 2001, 03:11 AM

Naked man's ass?
Glad I didn't go to that one too!

kein mitleid fur die mehrheit
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a_bab August 28th, 2001, 05:34 PM

Hey, this guy seems not to be vanished at all. He posted a reply yesterday at weapons section (shell topic). We are all waiting
a reply from him HERE. Where are you, Victim ?!


Victim August 28th, 2001, 06:39 PM

Still here, alive and well, I've added as much as I am going to on this subject, but FYI, here's some chat logs from MSN.
<a href="http://compliment.topcities.com/DarkAngel.pdf">Dark Angle's Chat</a>
<a href="http://compliment.topcities.com/JacobDahlstrup.pdf">Jacob Dahlstrup's chat log (Forum name unknown to me)</a>

"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."

Anthony August 28th, 2001, 07:52 PM

Right, so you're now a 23year old Cop.

Even though you told Darkangel that you were an apprentice plumber.

Also, kinda strange that a cop has 17 year old friends and uses his leisure time to smash up the local Supermarket.

Your reason for suddenly deleting your websites is obviously bullshit.

the freshmaker August 29th, 2001, 11:26 AM

I don't see why this idiot haven't been deleted yet. It was me and Darkangel who chatted with him over msn (my msn-name is
Jacob) First I chatted alone with him, and asked him questions about the FAKE PE4 explosion. All he said was a lie, then he
tried to scare me with shit like "Im a cop!" and so on. Then Darkangel also chatted with him while I was on the other line with
Darkangel. And he went on and on with his stupid lies. Then we asked him about his age, and finally we made him confess
that he wasn't 37, but 23 years old (maybe thats a lie too). I Know Darkagel also have alot funny informations about this

Victim August 29th, 2001, 11:47 AM

Did I ever say I was in the police force? I simply stated that it was possible that I might as stated by shooter3 I belive.

DarkAngel August 29th, 2001, 05:06 PM

You already putted our msn talk on the internet(but it's offline again i see) i also wanted to do that,but why did you did it now
you give everybody evidence against you?

Anthony says that your not 37 as your hands on the pictures look like teenage hands and on a magical way those pictures

Than i posted a message about your site where you are playing with SC/Suger and making fires and also that site is gone,,?

And the explenation whas that you don't have time to upload them because you are to bussy with working,,but those guys on
the pictures
where looking like teenagers not apprentice plumbers that are 37 years old hmmm.

Ah stupid of me! you already told me that on YOUR site you have pictures of ppl but you are not one of the ppl that whe
see,,hmm ah now i see
Mr apprentice PlumberCop(i guess it's new) that's 37 years old whas holding the camera when he's teenage friends where
making fires in the woods and the same story for the store vandalism,but still than if it whas your site without pictures of you
why do you write this text next to a movie:"Here you can hear MY mom screaming DEAN!! after I maked a bang with SC/
And guess what whe can see your teenage arm lighting the SC/Suger.

You are just so full of shit,i hope you understand that the "I don't care what you tell to the other forum members..." whas only
a trick to get you talking.

And about the law enforcement and other things,for a guy that say's he's innocent your giving yourself a hard time to let ppl
believing that.


For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)


[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited August 29, 2001).]

Anthony August 29th, 2001, 06:13 PM

Law Enforcement = Cop

So you're 23, in full time employment, have enough money to afford a nice car (probably your parents') yet you live at home
with your parents (who shout "DEEEEEEEEAN!" whenever you do anything naughty).
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PYRO500 August 29th, 2001, 10:18 PM

look closely at the picture of the person holding the detcord in his hand, above the numbers on the bottom are the same
numbers suspicisiously placed above the previous set, as if they were reflected except they arent upside down or backwards,
there's more to tthe theroy that the photo's arent yours, they may be real pictures but I am 100% certain they have been
doctored by an ameture.

Tony Montana August 30th, 2001, 04:15 AM

The fact that you tried to fool a group of obviously computer literate people, with pictures that had such blatant mistakes.
Means you are definately not a police officer, if a cop comes to the forum you can be sure he/she will be much more
sophisticated and professional, not to mention very hard to detect. I think Dean is 37, the fact that he lives with his parents
and they still control his life, explains his intellectual defeciency.

DarkAngel August 30th, 2001, 06:26 AM

Pyro500:and again also those pictures are gone

PYRO500 August 30th, 2001, 06:38 PM

Well, I saved the files to disk knowing they would soon dissipear http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

I encircled the double text I was talking about


I also have all four images on my Hdd, the one that is the worst that I cut the above pic out of is HERE:

(Note: you'll have to cut and paste the links into your browser (damn geocities)

megalomania August 30th, 2001, 11:12 PM

Just because someone is a cop does not make them smart, or guarantee they have resources. What smart person would
take a high risk , high stress jo b with low pa y? Crime doesn t pay, and neithe r does stopp ing it.

For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

PYRO500 August 30th, 2001, 11:48 PM

Also look at the lines I drew in the enlarged picture, right below the picture is a light grey bar folloed by a white bar that the
numbers are printed on then at the bottom of the numbers how they get cut off right at the grey line then they start back at
the top going down, that simply dosen't happen unless it's a printig defect witch I doubt

DarkAngel August 31st, 2001, 03:07 AM

Here is the pic i whas talking about




For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)


[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited August 31, 2001).]

Mr Cool August 31st, 2001, 02:08 PM

Oh my god, how could he have done this all SO badly...

CodeMason October 19th, 2001, 11:37 AM

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but does anyone still have a picture of the demolished car? I think it's from here, http://
edetonator.hyperlink.cz/DAP.htm (I thought I had seen it somewhere before). I was browsing the page and it just hit me...

Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net

Mick October 19th, 2001, 12:21 PM

did anyone notice how the wrist watches are the same?

and no, i'm not making any judgement on whether he's right or wrong because i haven't seen the complete set of pictures
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does anyone have them?
if they do, contact me(satanic_lord@hotmail.com), and i'll upload them and display them - and i wouldn't mind having a look
to see if there fake or not(majoring in digital media makes it pretty easy to spot a fake)

[This message has been edited by Mick (edited October 19, 2001).]

EP October 19th, 2001, 09:26 PM

CodeMason - I thought his pics might have been from those also (I have had them saved on my HD for probably two years
now). When he posted them and the whole fake or not thing came up I checked those pics. They are different because the
picture angles and damage are different.

CodeMason October 20th, 2001, 07:54 PM

I can produce an image that I think is very close to what I remember those ones to be. All I have to do is greyscale -> mirror
(flip horizontally) -> resize in Paint Shop Pro.

Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net

mongo blongo October 21st, 2001, 12:29 AM

No I don't think these were the pics. But even if they were derived from these pics, it would take a bit if skilled work which
obviously wasn't his best area of expertise! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

AAARRRRRHHH! My beautiful eyes! It burns!
The goggles do nothing!AAARRRRRHHH!

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > C hlorobutanol info

Log in
View Full Version : Chlorobutanol info

Ericm115 August 20th, 2001, 10:17 PM

C a n s o m e o n e t e l l m e m ore of the properties of chloroform ? such as safety. Also with chlorobutanol. I dont mean to doubt
NBK's pdf, but I am just looking for som e other opinions. W hat effects does chlorobutanol have, how long does it take, is it
s a f e ? Has anyone ever tried e ither of these with luck? Thanks.

FadeToBlackened August 21st, 2001, 12:39 AM

Ive read that 1 in 3000 cases of people being anesthetized with it die, and i believe its a carcinogen..

Rhadon S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2001, 07:16 PM

Chloroform has narco tic effects if ingested orally or if inhaled. In larger a mounts "breath paralysis" <incorrect expression?>,
cronical influence can cause liver dam a g e . C h l o roform is strongly suspected to be a carginogen.
L C L o ( h u m a n, by inhalation): 25000 ppm / 5 m i n u t e s
LC 50 (rat, by inhalation): 47702 mg / m 3 / 4 hours
LC 50 (rat, orally): 908 m g / k g
Chloroform s l o w l y d e c o m p o s e s t o p h o s g e n e a n d HCl if exposed to air an d sunlight. Therefore it's usually stabilized with about
1% EtOH and stored in brown bottles.
If you're inte rested in the effects on the hum an body and treatm ent give m e a n o t e .

I didn't find m uch about chlorobutanol, but it's used as a m ild anesthetic.

cutefix S e p t e m b e r 7 th, 2001, 02:49 AM

Check this out for chlorobutan ol:
http://www.athenstaedt.de/chem icals/fram eset.htm
http://www.rhodium .ws/chemistry/chlorobutanol.txt
This one for chloroform :
http://www.jtbaker.com /m s d s / c 2 9 1 5 . h t m
Good Luck!

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