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1. AR-15 Lighting Link (1 replies)


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33. How to make a silencer? (3 replies)
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Silencer

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Kdogg November 26th, 2001, 08:47 PM


I have recently made one by takin a small piece of pipe & drilled holes in it like a shroud. Then put it in a 20oz. pop bottle,
Through holes in both ends. I then put a little tape around my barrel to get a tighter fit inside the pipe. It nearly cut the sound
in half I was surprised. Have any of you ever made one if so please share how well it worked, & how you made it.

------------------
Monkeyman

EventHorizon November 27th, 2001, 07:22 AM


Baffle type are simple to make. If you are fortunate to have some metal working equipment you can eaisly fabricate one. If I
can ever get my spare PSU back I can scan the silencer book I have.

------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

CyclonitePyro November 27th, 2001, 09:23 AM


(In various dreams)
I experimented with the bottle types, I heated the end of them to make them soft and then shot a hole through it to make a
perfectly placed hole, they work well but are not practical and are large.
I make the silencers for my Ruger 10/22, I also have a Bultler Creek folding stock in it and a scope, and some smaller
accessories like an extended mag, release, auto bolt release and bolt buffer.
Use subsonic rounds for it, their velocity is just below the speed of sound so the make no sonic boom while flying, that is
where most of your sound comes from, I buy 500rd bricks of them and they don't last long with a 50rd clip.
The silencer I use now is a piece of 1/2" PVC pipe, it slides right on the barrel and has and L shaped notch in it so it can slide
on past the sight on the end of the barrel and then you twist in so it locks in place and won't slide off. In the middle of it is a
metal washer held in place by small sloped nails and PVC glue, The inner hole of the washer is just right for a .22 bullet. On
the end are two rubber grommets held in place by nails and PVC glue. It is painted flat black and looks just like a
maufactured silencer and works great.
I built it so that neighbors wouldn't complain, and it works well for its purpose. If not for them then I really wouldn't have cared
about the noise.
It works nice for shooting animals, Cananda Geese for example, one drops, and the one next to it has no freakin idea what
happened, where if not for the silencer, the whole flock would have flew away.

------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

Kdogg November 27th, 2001, 05:05 PM


"If you are fortunate to have some metal working equipment you can eaisly fabricate one." I have every thing I would need,
Cutting/welding torch, plasma cutter, Wire & arc welders, & a metal lathe. Do you have any good ideas? Im thinking of making
it with the same idea, just with a pipe so its smaller than a pop bottle, that way aiming is more accurate.

------------------
Monkeyman

CyclonitePyro November 27th, 2001, 08:24 PM


What imaginary gun is this silencer for?

------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

Kdogg November 28th, 2001, 05:31 PM


If your talking to me, This/these "Imaginary" guns are a Savage .22, & an AR-7 .22. I also have a 30-06, but am not going
slide a metal silincer onto it, as I do not want to scratch it. It is one of my most prized possesions. Oh yeah, I also have an
old bolt action mossberg 20 gauge w/ a 2 round clip. It is also one of my favorites.

------------------
Monkeyman

twinkle November 30th, 2001, 04:41 AM


information on a high powered rifle silencer goto here :
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/btxgraaf.html
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/mxgraaf.html
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/Reflex.html

as for improvising (for a .22LR)you can use beerbottle caps which you reshape till they fit nicely in a tube or you could use
aluminium screenwire winded up to a roll and then taped onto a barrel
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Kdogg November 30th, 2001, 03:21 PM
Hey CyclonitePyro so how does your silencer work on your "IMAGINARY" Ruger 10/22. Oh yeah why dont you use your
imagination & think up a shotgun to make a silencer for, so your dont have to use a .22 hunting geese?

------------------
Monkeyman

kingspaz November 30th, 2001, 03:31 PM


you can't silence a shotgun can you? someone correct me if i'm wrong since i don't know much about guns. the shot doesn't
make an airtight fit with the barrel so the gas behind the round can't be absorbed by the silencer as the bullet goes past. well
thats how i allways thought a silencer worked.

Cricket November 30th, 2001, 03:37 PM


Someone once said that a loaf of bread over the muzzle will silence a .22 nicely.

------------------
"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania

zaibatsu November 30th, 2001, 04:02 PM


I don't know a lot about shotguns, but doesn't the wad (?) make an airtight seal? Anyway, I have seen silenced barrels for
shotguns, advertised in Gun Mart for anyone from the UK

------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)

Predator November 30th, 2001, 04:07 PM


What a good memory you have.. that was my stating a loaf of bread worked nicely in my dream.

Anyone tried that method out yet?

Someone was joking saying we should write out bread-loaf silencer specifications; kaiser rolls for this, buns for that lol

[This message has been edited by Predator (edited 11-30-2001).]

Cricket November 30th, 2001, 04:17 PM


I thought it was you, but wasn't sure. I live in the city now and can't test it or I would. Maybe on vacation for Chriatmas I will be
able to.

------------------
"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania

Kdogg November 30th, 2001, 11:43 PM


"Someone once said that a loaf of bread over the muzzle will silence a .22 nicely."

What a waste of bread!

I have not tried silencing a shotgun before, one mm to the wrong direction & the shot blow it clean off.

------------------
Monkeyman

BoB- December 1st, 2001, 01:00 AM


In that same thread it was mentioned that a potato over the muzzle of a .22 would silence it.

I've dreamed of silencing a 30-06 with a watermelon stuck on the barell, worked great.

------------------
Teamwork is essential.
It lets you blame someone else.

[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited 12-01-2001).]

HMTD Factory December 1st, 2001, 05:23 AM


Muffling the muzzle changes point of impact a
lot ,so they are not likely practical. An old fashioned silencer is simply a multi-chambered attachment on the muzzle so
the powder gas have time to expand and depressurize before it's released outside(the lower the pressure is, the smaller the
sound)

Anthony December 1st, 2001, 10:19 AM


I've seen silencers for shotguns for sale too.

"one mm to the wrong direction & the ... blow it clean off."
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Surely that's going to be true of almost any projectile?

I can see a melon working as the internal cavity would act as an expansion chamber. But a potato is dense and water soaked
so I doubt it would really absorb any sound. Bread would work well because of the porus nature of it, loads of connected air
pockets that the gas can expand into.

CyclonitePyro December 1st, 2001, 10:20 AM


The silencer I was talking about works great, you 80% of the sound you do hear comes from the bolt clanking back and forth.
That's why I bought the bolt buffer, instead of the bolt hitting a metal pin in the back of the reciever it hits a soft polyurethane
pin, much more quiet.

------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

Fingerless December 1st, 2001, 03:47 PM


Cyclonite, how long is your PVC silencer? I purchased some 1/2" PVC to make a silencer for my 10/22 but it was about the
same size as the barrel, are you sure thats the size you have? I'll have to get some 3/4 and try it. Are the rubber grommets
on the end of the silencer that slides over the gun muzzle or at the opposite end of the silencer? What purpose does the
washer in the middle of the tube serve? I'm not sure what its for, to create multiple chambers? Thanks, it sounds like a good
system if it works as good as you say, I'd like a quiet system for shooting squirrels in town. I purchased a couple hundred
American Eagle subsonic rounds a month or so a go in plan to do that, but I still need a silencer. Where do I get this
replacement pin at?

Eventhorizon, that would be great if you could put some designs/ideas from your book on.

CyclonitePyro December 4th, 2001, 07:53 PM


Hey, Fingerless, sorry I took so long, I had to sleep and dream to measure it, and remember what the PVC I used is called. I
know what you mean I tried regular 1/2" and it was too small, then I used 3/4" and I had to make a complicated adapter, and
it was less practical.

The PVC I found is called Rigid PVC, get the 1/2" It's grey instead of white, I think it's used for electrical stuff, like putting
wires through. It makes an almost perfect fit. My dream silencer is 10" long and slides over the barrel so 8" protrudes off the
barrel. And yes you're right I used the washer in the center to make two separate chambers. And the grommets go at the end
of your silencer, you don't have to use grommets, you could use washers but I found perfectly fitting grommets. And then just
make sure you find a way to make them stay in place.

------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

Fingerless December 5th, 2001, 05:32 AM


Good ideas Cyclonite, but where did you get your bolt buffer at for your 10/22? I haven't seen them before, and would like
one.

I've studied up on silencers a bit and am currently developing one for .22's and one for .45's and the .22 is coming along
nicely. I've found a good adapter for the barrel is a large, dense high grade cork. One end of the cork is epoxied into your
silencer tube and the other end is drilled slightly smaller than your barrel and the barrel is slid in. Then a 1/4 inch whole is
drilled all the way through the cork for the bullet. FOr my silencer I'm utilizing a thin aluminum tube with copper cross tubes
inside bedded in probablly epoxy, I don't know yet I'm not that far. Then fiberglass insulation will be put in the spaces and a
washer will be brazed to the end. I'll let you know the complete plans and everything if it works out well.

CyclonitePyro December 5th, 2001, 03:28 PM


O yeah I forgot about that. Go to ebay and type ruger 10/22, you will find a bunch of bolt buffers and other cool accessories,
like a ventilated handguard. Or you could go to www.gunaccessories.com (http://www.gunaccessories.com) they have em

------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

Kdogg December 5th, 2001, 04:02 PM


Does anyone have any info on a .22 LR full auto converstion??

------------------
Monkeyman

EventHorizon December 5th, 2001, 05:36 PM


I've got info on converting the 10/22 to select fire. As soon as I get my scanner up and going I'll scan it.

PS: NBK (or anyone else, I know NBK has mentioned it), do you have a good OCR program. I can't seem to find either of the
top 2 in a full install package, only serials.

------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
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Kdogg December 5th, 2001, 07:30 PM


"I've got info on converting the 10/22 to select fire. As soon as I get my scanner up and going I'll scan it."
That sounds great, I am very interested! Thanks

------------------
Monkeyman

twinkle December 6th, 2001, 09:08 AM


I do have drawings of converting a Winchester model 64& model 490 cal .22 for semi and full auto if you like

Kdogg December 6th, 2001, 05:04 PM


Yes, twinkle. Please send them. It would be great for imformational purposes only.

------------------
Monkeyman

EventHorizon December 6th, 2001, 09:21 PM


I have the Silencer PDF done, hope its acceptable quality for ya'll.

As soon as I verify that Adobe didn't stick some hidden info in the file somewhere, I'll post to my Yahoo breifcase and post a
link here. Soon to follow, converting the 10/22 to FA.
EDIT:
Here is where to find the file.
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/eventhorizon308
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited 12-07-2001).]

twinkle December 7th, 2001, 12:06 AM


I will send them as you can tell me where to ? I did not see an email address

SawedOff8gaugeman December 7th, 2001, 11:47 AM


Twinkle, a suggestion: upload them somewhere and then post a link.

Kdogg December 7th, 2001, 05:21 PM


I thought you were going to post them here, Anyways Bigrussel7@hotmail

------------------
Monkeyman

twinkle December 8th, 2001, 10:33 AM


I mailed the drawings to Kdogg while I have no idea how to post something on the www but
if you want them to SawedOff8gaugeman I can send them to .

Kdogg December 8th, 2001, 10:37 AM


Thanks Twinkle

------------------
Monkeyman

Fingerless December 8th, 2001, 05:36 PM


I got some new ammunition for my .22 today that I have to tell you guys about. One type is called Aguila SSS (Sniper sub
sonic)the other type are called Aguila super colibri's. The SSS's are built on a short case but have a 60(!) grain bullet. Overall
they are the same size and profile as a .22 long rifle and cycle the same as a .22 LR. Due to the bullet being 50% heavier
than a standard solid long rifle bullet, they have much more kinetic energy and "knock down power". They also retain there
speed much better than a standard .22 LR-also, they are subsonic and very quiet, but still have the oomph of a long rifle 40
grainer. They are very consistent and accurate and might make decent target rounds. They drop tree rats and rabbits like a
ton of bricks. I shot a rabbit in the body from 50 yards with my 10/22 today and it was dead by the time I got to it.
THe super colibri is a standard long rifle case, but theres no powder in it! It has a small 20 grain lead bullet that is propelled
by merely the priming compound-don't laugh, its more powerful than it seems. I dented a plate of mild sheet steel from 30
yards or so. I also killed a rabbit today with one cleanly with a head shot from about 25 yards. They are subsonic, and very
quiet, and don't travel too far. But they are extremely consistent and accurate. They are no louder than a air rifle, maybe
quieter, even without a suppressor. I'm not sure of the velocity, its somewhere around 500 FPS I think I read. THe SSS are
950 or so, but I'll check on those numbers. You guys should check these rounds out.
Anyone else have experience with these rounds? What have you concluded? Like/no?

Cyclonite, what subsonic rounds are you shooting-I also got some remington subsonics but they occassionaly go supersonic.
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CyclonitePyro December 9th, 2001, 03:32 PM
I use Remingtons subsonics, I've never had them go supersonic, regular .22 ammo's velocity is between 1055 fps and 1100
fps, the speed of sound is 1055 fps, Remingtons subsonics are 1049 fps, right under the sound barrier, so its like shooting
reg, ammo without the noise.
I'll have to try some other brands, but I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference since I like to just walk aroung and
randomly unload on shit. I only shoot animals when there is is one unlucky enough to be near me, I don't sit and wait for
animal with my .22

That's where my rifle comes in, when I go hunting I use a Savage .300, I shot a doe in the head this season, always wanted
to do that. It dropped right away, when I walked to it, its legs were still moving and I didn't know at the time if I had a head
shot, and I didn't want it getting up and biting me J/K, so I shot it point blank in the head, again. Messy!

------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

Anthony December 9th, 2001, 05:42 PM


20gr at 500fps is just over 11ft/lb! No wonder they're about as loud as an air rifle:) Ok for rabits, but people no way.

Kdogg December 9th, 2001, 07:20 PM


All you can basically hear is the click. No boom, nothing, it doesnt even move the action.

------------------
Monkeyman

Fingerless December 11th, 2001, 05:18 PM


Yes, surely not enough for people. But excellent for the "backyard" hunter! If you wanted to hunt a person, theoretically of
course, the Aguila SSS pushing a 60 grain bullet at around 900 fps would be very well subsuited-in a closed action and with a
silencer its very quiet I've concluded.

Jhonbus December 13th, 2001, 12:04 AM


Just a note about the use of a potato as a silencer. While doing some research (actually on a semi/full auto air gun "potato
gun") I found this document:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">


Interior Ballistic Deformation, by Mike Haag (Albuquerque New Mexico P.D.)

Abstract:

None.

During the investigation of a murder in Albuquerque, eight bullet fragments were recovered from the victim and potato
fragments were recovered from the scene. The victim was shot three times.

It appears that the potato was used as a silencer placed over the barrel of the firearm used in the murder. The potato found
at the scene was tested and positive reactions for lead residues was noted.

Additional tests were conducted to see if a potato actually worked as a silencer. Mr. Haag's results found that the potato did
not effectively silence a revolver. A potato used on a semi-auto firearm did reduce the volume of the gunshot.

The potato reduced bullet velocities from around 950 feet per second to near 600 feet per second.

The bullets recovered from having been fired with the potato on the barrel were very elongated and "wasp-waisted". Mr. Haag
found that when the potato was placed on the barrel a plug of potato is pushed into the barrel. With the rest of the potato
removed, bullets fired down the barrel had this deformation. He concluded the bullet deformation was occurring in the barrel
and not externally.
</font>

------------------
You must create.

PGP Key ID on MIT server: 0x0ADBA985

atropine January 5th, 2002, 02:12 PM


ive seen a silenced shotgun in my local gunshop, the thing is so huge and bulky i doubt it is practical enough to bother with. I
asked how much it silences the crack. He said about 10% on a good day. Oh and in a dream i made a silenced zip gun
running from primer driven pellets. The silencer appeared to be a piece of aluminium tubing with a series of spacers and
baffles. If i could have heard anything in this dream i would have said that it silenced the bang very very nicely, to about that
of a co2 pistol.

zaibatsu January 5th, 2002, 03:57 PM


Thats why you use subsonic ammo with the silenced shotguns, although there is a point to using a silencer with a supersonic
load (be it bullet or shot) thats not really what people are talking about in this thread.

shane May 29th, 2002, 04:08 AM


i have in a folder of some improvised explosives and within that is a list of where you can get product and one of the is a
silence "kit" as a kit it is not legal to purchase (as far as i know i live in australia so my knowledge of american law is a bit
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sketchy)but you can attach this silencer on a ruger mark 1 (i think i have the address and info stored away)but if anyone
wants the address give me a buzz at shaneprice@start.com.au any other stuff you want to know about let me know

xoo1246 May 29th, 2002, 04:15 PM


Mmm, I wish I had an imaginary Ruger Mk II. Gun laws around here forces you to join a shooting club and be in it for two
month before buying one. I'll probably have to do that.

McGuyver May 29th, 2002, 11:42 PM


If someone had a metal lathe and all the goodies for making metal into nice things, they could fabricate a pipe that was the
perfect diameter for their bullet. They could even rifle it. Many holes would then be put in this piece of pipe. The holes allow
the gases to go into your air chamber(below) instead of out the muzzle. Then two washers could be welded onto the two ends
of the pipe maybe a 1/2 an inch away from the end. The holes would only be between the two washers. Then, on the outside
of the washers(or outer edge) there would be a piece of pipe to create a nice air chamber for the rapidly expanding gases. The
pipe would of course be welded to the washers. The barrel could be threaded inside or out, and then your silencer could also
be threaded to make a removable silencer in case some pigs catch you using it, and you have to chuck it somewhere. You will
have to work on threading yourself because every gun is different. You can also vary length and volume of air chamber to your
specs. Make sure everything is perfect, you wouldn't want it blowing up in your face. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" /> It may be a good idea to make the inner pipe a bit larger were the bullet first enters. Test it by puting a tight
fitting dowel or something that fits tight inside the silencer, through the silencer, and into the barrel, if there is any (I mean
any!) resistance between the the silencer and barrel do something about it. Also, make sure the bullet fits without any
resistance. You should also test it from a distance a few times just to be on the safe side-like standing behind a tree or
something that will stop metal shards. This should make the gun just as accurate as it was before the silencer but much
quieter. I built a silencer like Cyclonite's but without 2 chambers and quite a bit longer. It is great for silencing but the accuracy
is not to good. I would love to make a silencer like this but I do not have all the metal fabrication goodies needed, mind you
this all came from a dream.

Probe June 2nd, 2002, 10:29 AM


OOOOK, here it gos, I recently have aquired a .22 for myself, and want to make a silencer for it (that bitch is loud, bolt action,
and the clip didnt work { falling apart }, so now its basicly breech loaded, anyways back to the quiestion), I have no metal
working tools, and I would prefur to use PVC because I already have some laying around. My barrle is unthreaded( :( ) and
such so it will be a bit harder. Does anyone have any plans they got layin around for this purpose? I dont have exact
mesurements but I'll get 'em if you need them.

I need it to be pretty small, and I'll probobly have a tripple chamber, 1 pipe inside another and the one that the bullet pass's
through will have holes and 2 chambers to expand better. Any input would be apriciated(sp?) ty :) , forgot to mention the
annoying neghbores(sp) who dis-aprove of guns. :rolleyes:

CyclonitePyro June 2nd, 2002, 01:26 PM


A .22 loud?, Do you mean in comparison to othere .22's?, .22's are quiet compared to other guns. Is shooting legal where you
live? If so find a place to shoot so that it isn't dangerous to anyone and annoy those scum sucking neighbors of yours, unless
your parents are on good terms with them.
Your goal of finding a silencer is no different from the other people here, I wish I had a threaded barrel. Try to see if you have
"rigid PVC" that fits on the end of most .22's, it is grey 1/2" pipe that is meant for containing electrical lines. Also, read above
what was written in the past.

Fl4PP4W0k June 2nd, 2002, 01:49 PM


Hey guys, has anyone ever made an, ahem, "Zip" Gun using standard .22 primers and Air Rifle pellets?
I had an interesting idea that kinda expanded on my old .22primer\6mm graphite BB trick....

Basically, its using a .22 primer and a .22 air rifle pellet but with an air rifle barrel. Would anyone thats maybe tried this
method compare power with a standard 850+fps air rifle?
As i do not have an air rifle, i can not compare power :\
(the only air guns i have are 12ga+ :D )

By using this with a silencer and standard break action, it would be pretty good fer taking down the odd backyard kritters that
may roam into your domain :mad:

About the silencer.... I was thinking about a vented 6mm tubing that fits the air rifle pellet pretty well, and releases to a
15mm PVC pipe length - the gap filled with that non-static foam???
Any suggestions or info,
thx

rob

Probe June 3rd, 2002, 01:41 AM


No, my .22 is VERY loud, you can hear it for about a mile, thanks for the help with the pipe, I'll grab one in the morning. And
I'm underaged for a firearm, I'm not going to go out killing people, just shoot targets in my backyard (filled with flashpowder
of course.)

I piss off the neighbors already, I told them that it was an air rifle when they came over wondering what the noise was. They
responded "Thats one loud air rifle" I ended up saying "Yeah it uses a whole CO2 cartridge at once"

xoo1246 June 3rd, 2002, 04:07 PM


Fl4PP4W0k: I once tried to load some friction/heat/shock sensitive mixture I extracted from some caps (you use when you
fish on the ice, like larger toy caps) behind a .177 air rifle bullet. This was some time ago, anyway, the speed was icreased
and it was noticable better in pentrating targets. I helpt eroding the barrel too.
I doubt you can hear a .22 from a mile in urban/woody areas.
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<small>[ June 03, 2002, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

Anthony June 4th, 2002, 08:10 PM


Fl4PP4W0k, I'd forget the primer and just use a .22LR blank if you can't get complete .22 rounds. An air rifle pellet is a bit
light but it will give you more muzzle energy than most air rifles.

Fl4PP4W0k June 5th, 2002, 07:13 AM


Yer, thx Anthony - but you need a license for blank ammunition in backwards Australia methinks. I know that .22 primers are
purchaseable in tins of 100 at the local army surplus store.. so that is me reason for the preoject :D

But ofcourse, if one can get .22 Blanks, then by all means they would be better. Im just proposing something that is totally
license free, but more powerful than a good air rifle ( as you need a license for even THEM!!!)

l8r,
rob

ShotgunsAreFun June 5th, 2002, 08:35 AM


.22 primers from a surplus store in Australia?! We cant buy air rifle pellets! Where do you get primers from?

Fl4PP4W0k June 5th, 2002, 09:42 AM


*evil grin*

muhuhahahaha
>:]

What state are you in?

Bcoz in WA, they arent considered munitions. :D

$12.50 for a tin of 100


Not too bad...

ShotgunsAreFun June 5th, 2002, 09:07 PM


I hate NSW.
Can primers be sent through the mail? I mean, in a box or something. Or do they x-ray them? I know that primers can be
used as the propellant for practice bullets, they send a plastic round out at 300-400 fps... a couple of those behind a blowdart
should be interesting :D

<small>[ June 05, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: ShotgunsAreFun ]</small>

electric emu June 5th, 2002, 10:48 PM


Im pretty sure you can order through the mail with out hazardous shipping through a place like natchezs or lock stock barrel. I
dont know about austrailia. and how do you get .22 primers thats a rimfire caliber and its built in unless you take it apart on
your own.

<small>[ June 05, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]</small>

Magas June 6th, 2002, 04:51 AM


Primers can't be sent through the mail in oz as they are classed as explosives. You do need a license to buy blanks for a 22
however you don't need a license to by Ramset charges which are 22 blanks just be over 18 stupid laws :)

Fl4PP4W0k June 6th, 2002, 05:50 AM


They arent technically "primers", theyre actually crimped .22 brass that only contains a primer, about half the length of a .22
short casing.

l8r

Whitey June 7th, 2002, 09:57 PM


probe if you just want to quiet the gun down for target practice you could use quieter ammo. Try "cb caps" made by CCI. They
are low powered rounds and are about 3/4 of the length of a regular .22lr. I have tried them myself and they are about as
loud as a pellet gun. I would reccomend these because if you get caught with the gun you don't want to get busted for a
silencer as well. Also if someone sees your rifle with a piece of pipe hanging off the muzzle they will know what it is.

The downside is that they usually don't have enough power to cycle a semi auto. But that doesn't matter since your rifle is a
single shot bolt action anyway.

PYRO500 June 8th, 2002, 03:07 AM


I have herd of those cb pellets, I herd they were just a primer driving a very light projectile. I think they are just for short
range/indoor paper punch and I would suspect they would do a little less damage than a cheapo rusted out 20 buck pellet
gun. a while back someone (NBK2000?) posted a link to silent cartredge ammo that would need no silencer and had
something with the cartrage to absorb most of the gas so there wasn't that loud a blast. The downside was reduced lethality
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although, when do you need to use a silenced pistol long range?

Sparky June 8th, 2002, 11:52 AM


Maybe this is a stupid idea, but for people who can't get blank rounds maybe they could try the charges from nail guns. They
are kind of like a blank round but I'm not sure if they would fit into a .22 bore. For people who can't get ammunition and want
to make a zip gun this could be an idea.

Whitey June 8th, 2002, 06:00 PM


pyro, your basically correct they are actually designed so that you can practice shooting inside your basement or something
and not damage your hearing or alert your neighbors. I know they are useful for eliminating pests but I wouldn't trust them for
self defense. But since I think he is mainly interested in target practise the cb caps might fit his situation.

If he was looking something that was quiet but still fairly destructive, subsonic rounds (aguilla) might be worth a try.

xoo1246 June 8th, 2002, 06:20 PM


I have read that the aguilla aren't as good as they claim to be, try different brands and compare them. No personal
experience.

Harry June 21st, 2002, 01:29 PM


A body could try using the "end caps" from 35mm film rolls--walk in to you local photofinisher and ask for the contents of their
film recycle bag. "Unroll" the empty 35mm rolls (you may get a sore finger or 2) and save the ends. You now have several
corrugated steel circles with holes in the center, ALL the same size! Use some imagination for the body of your muffler.

auzquad July 21st, 2002, 11:19 AM


learn to spell

<small>[ July 22, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]</small>

Anthony July 21st, 2002, 08:51 PM


Yes, if you're making a silencer then you want to make the size of the chambers between the baffles different sizes (and not
multiples of each other), to better absorb the different wavelengths of sound.

McGuyver July 22nd, 2002, 01:04 AM


The key is to find a straight piece of pipe (preferably steel) that has the exact same inner diameter as your barrel. If you find
that then your set.
If anyone has a good source for pipe that has an inner diameter of .22, let me know please. I have the same silencer as
cyconite's but with the silencer it is inaccurate. With a pipe inside the silencer to guide the bullet it should be just as accurate
without it.

Anthony July 22nd, 2002, 04:38 PM


A silencer the diameter of your calibre isn't going to really make any difference to muzzle noise. Or do you mean drilling the
calibre matched tube so that the propellant gas escapes and expands into the silencer casing outside of the pipe?

That could be effective, but I'm not sure that it would work as the transition of the bullet from the muzzle into the pipe coul
shave the bullet or make it bounce along the pipe slightly. It'd be hard to get the pipe as tight as the barrel otherwise the
bullet would probably rip the silencer off :)

Anthony Privratsky July 22nd, 2002, 04:50 PM


A few years ago i remember watching a show that had an improvised silencer in it. This kid murdered this other kids family for
him. :( And he had made a silencer using a carbon tube that had 3 tennis balls pushed into the tube. The tennis balls
distributed the sound very well.
I might do an experiment using that same idea later this week.

McGuyver July 22nd, 2002, 09:16 PM


Yes, I did mean drilling holes in the pipe and having that enclosed in a larger pipe. Just having a pipe there would do nothing
to silence it.

I would definitely test any homemade silencer remotely a few times before used normally. I've seen a few fly apart already.
You definitely would have to stick some kind of rod or dowel down your barrel to make sure they are aligned properly- even
then it should be tested a few times.

Tyler_Durden July 23rd, 2002, 02:03 AM


i was just thinking about a way to silence rifles...

what's wrong with drilling the barrel or the rifle, instead of adding to it?

then, add another pipe around it w/ holes in it, and maybe even another if you wanted to.

this method would mean that you dont have to worry about alignment, the loss of aim would be minimal, and overall it would
be a lot easier to make.
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what do you all think of this?

edit: of course you would want to do this with an inexpensive rifle (sks perhaps), and it would be permanent, so the rifle
definitely couldnt be found by the authorities!

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]</small>

john_smith July 23rd, 2002, 04:53 AM


This drilling the barrel is already done in MP5SD, Sterling Patchett etc. It lowers the muzzle velocity quite a bit, allowing to
shoot normal supersonic ammo. As for permanent, te MP5 has a sleeve on the barrel inside the silencer which can be slid over
the holes if needed, giving the bullet nearly normal velocity and also protecting the silencer. I'd like to try this, yet I'm in
Europe and thus there really isn't such a thing as a disposable rifle for me.
P.S. IMHO making a SKS subsonic doesn't make much sense. A pistol caliber carbine would be the best choice for this.

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 04:00 AM: Message edited by: john_smith ]</small>

McGuyver July 23rd, 2002, 12:25 PM


Yeah, that would definitely work, I suppose the biggest problem is it is so permanent. The sleeve to put over the holes is a
good idea though.

I think the hardest thing would be getting the barrel and holes free of the little metal pieces left over from drilling. If even one
metal piece stays in there and the bullet can't pass properly... :( .

john_smith July 23rd, 2002, 01:38 PM


It probably won't be THAT much of a problem. <a href="http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm"
target="_blank">http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm</a>, look for barrel lapping.
A link for MP5SD:<a href="http://www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm</a>

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: john_smith ]</small>

Sparky July 23rd, 2002, 06:33 PM


I remember a book I read that had directions for a fiberglass silencer
<a href="http://www.overthrow.com/books/view.asp?showCat=Hitman&showText=text20010310174753.txt"
target="_blank">http://www.overthrow.com/books/view.asp?showCat=Hitman&showText=text20010310174753.txt</a>

The book is called Hitman and has been forced out of print. Someone killed some people after reading the book and Paladin
was forced to destroy the already printed copies and stop printing the book.

Eliteforum July 23rd, 2002, 06:37 PM


That Hitman book is a farce! It has nowhere near enough information for it to be valuable, and just to point out, it was written
by a female bored house wife. One of the admin's said something about this book a while back, don't remember who it was
though.

Anthony July 23rd, 2002, 07:08 PM


It was probably NBK.

IIRC, the book was originally written as a fiction work, but paladin said they would only print it if it was in the form of a
"handbook". Change a few words around and there you go, fiction becomes how-to.

McGuyver July 23rd, 2002, 08:02 PM


John_Smith - Lapping doesn't sound like something that too many people would want to have done. Seeing how homemade
silencers are illegal and that sort of thing.

Besides that, lapping isn't possible after there are holes in the barrel :rolleyes: .

Maybe a really stiff wire brush or something along that line would do it. I would still test it remotely a few times.

john_smith July 23rd, 2002, 08:48 PM


I admit having never lapped a rifled barrel, but it doesn't seem so complicated - after all, the point is just to push something
that fits very tight through the barrel a couple of times to get the crap out, not building a $x.000 sniper rifle. The brush would
probably work, too, and if the barrel survives the first (remotely fired) shot, it'll be additionally and completely cleaned by the
bullet. Really not something to fret about.

Anthony July 23rd, 2002, 08:54 PM


I'd imagine that Fire Lapping would do the job.

McGuyver July 24th, 2002, 01:16 AM


Hey man, nobody's frettin'! I just don't want someone trying this (barrel silencer) and messing up there AK or something.
Some people care about their guns- no matter if it's a .22 or a .50 cal sniper.

Yeah I know what you mean by lapping, but I was talking about your article which defines lapping as using lead. Sure, you can
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stick something that fits nice and tight and lap the barrel. Which is what you need to do, to lap it, after holes are drilled.

Another good thing about the removable silencer is, of course, it being removable. If your walking around with a silencer fixed
on your barrel and a annoying neighbor calls the pigs on you- your screwed. With a removable one you just gotta hide it
somewhere or chuck it on the run.

Charlie Workman July 24th, 2002, 02:58 AM


There are a couple of ways to avoid, or at least reduce the burrs in your ported barrels. One is to use a new drill bit or the
sharpest you can get. Another is to fill the barrel with lead, drill the holes, then melt out the lead. I can't vouch for that last
one, but heard it from a fairly reliable source. If the ports aren't too small you can use a deburring tool to carefully scrape the
inside of the hole. If you are going to port your barrel it should be on a gun that can't be traced to you. That way if you have
to toss it, it's only a monetary loss. No gun is worth 10 years at Club Fed (US). That's why I tell people if they want to get me
something I'll really like for Christmas or my birthday, they should get me a "cold piece". I've got a couple. Otherwise, a
detachable/disposable is best. I made one from a liter oil bottle that fitted perfectly on my Ruger MKII bull barrel. I cut off the
bottom and filled it with fiberglass pipe wrapping tape, folded into a stack. The bottom was resealed with duct tape. So quiet it
was scary.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas"
-Gidget

PYRO500 July 24th, 2002, 06:08 AM


And how exactly do you plan on getting that lead out? you would have to use a torch witch would really heat up the barrel and
cause the temper (the process that makes metals harder or brittler by slowing/speeding their cooling) to be totally wasted.

<small>[ July 24, 2002, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]</small>

Anthony July 24th, 2002, 11:19 AM


I can't imagine it'd do much for the blueing either.

I think even if the bullet does get shaved slightly by a burr, it might not have *that* effect on accuracy, I guess at wordt it
would make the bullet keyhole.

Charlie Workman, what effect did the bullet passing through the fibreglass stuff have on accuracy?

zaibatsu July 24th, 2002, 03:29 PM


I thought lapping was using a lead plug covered in a cutting fluid? Anyway, I think most professional silencers mainly use a
baffle system, and I think that would be the best option, as well as making it detatchable.

Arkangel July 24th, 2002, 04:31 PM


My old man used to have a BSA Sportsman 5 .22 rifle. It was a neat little bolt action jobbie, with a thread on the end of the
barrel for it's silencer. I took the silencer apart quite a few times, and it was made very simply. It was an external metal tube
1" in diameter, with an internal thread at the barrel end, and external thread at the front end. (Naturally the barrel end had
been reduced quite a bit)

The front end cap unscrewed, and out fell a number of cup washers that fitted inside. These were made from 1.5mm steel,
and had a .25" hole in the centres (forgive my mixed imperial/metric units - I'm at that awkward age)

Altogether there were about ten of them, and a cross section looked like this: (hope it works)

I___ ___I

HEY, my first attempt at drawing something and I understood it. Let's hope you do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />

Charlie Workman July 24th, 2002, 05:04 PM


You don't have to screw up the temper when removing the lead. It melts at about 700 F (if memory serves). Just don't be too
heavy handed with the torch. I object to it myself one other grounds, such as safety. Sharp drill bits or the scraper are safer
and easier. Just thought I'd pass it along. I couldn't really test the accuracy effects on the oil bottle silencer. To fit it on the
barrel I had to unscrew and remove the front sight. It' cheap and easy enough to test and come to your own conclusions. If
you give the can a gentle squeeze after firing, it will blow tiny smoke rings out of the end. Unfortunately, it also blows
pulverized fiberglass back into the action, something I didn't discover until I was cleaning it. ACK!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas"
-Gidget

PYRO500 July 24th, 2002, 08:06 PM


lead may melt at 700 degrees but try getting it that temp without heating the barrel to atleast twice that.

Energy84 July 25th, 2002, 01:03 AM


If you take your time and heat it slowly enough, the lead will get hot enough. You could also rig up an oil bath or something
(the fluid must be stable to at least 700 degrees) and heat it to the required temperature then dip the end of the barrel into
it.
On second thought, you'd probably be better off to just use lead as your fluid. This would give you the means to fill the end of
the barrel in the first place (just heat up a large mass of lead in a steel pot and stick in the end of the barrel as you reduce
the heat). To take it out of the barrel again, the pot of lead would just be heated up again and the barrel reinserted.
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PYRO500 July 25th, 2002, 01:41 AM


Give it up with the lead barrel idea! if you did submerge the barrel in liquid lead that was just about 700 degrees you'l get all
this lead slag stuff in the barrel and not to meniton how hard it is to melt that buch lead let alone support it so it dosen't crush
it's supports

Energy84 July 25th, 2002, 01:50 AM


It's not very hard to melt lead. I've done it with a small propane torch. And it's not like I melted just a little bit, I had a whole
pot full of it.
I forgot to mention in my last post however that I do agree with you, the whole lead thing in the barrel probably wouldn't be a
good idea. There are better ways...

Harry July 25th, 2002, 10:07 AM


Somebody needs to take Remedial Electronics! A whole lot of sombodies!

Electrical solder (and sheetmetal solder, for that matter) is an alloy of tin (Sn) and lead (Pb). It is alloyed to lower the (drum
roll please) melting temp. Use the solid-core stuff.

But, if you still get noivous about heating your barrel, there's bullets available that have an abrasive coating for cleaning rust
pits in the bore, you could use ice to fill the bore before drilling (start with water, then freeze inside bore. Careful with the gas-
operated's!), anything that you can melt in and melt out should work. Lapping the bore is still the best method, though.

Harry

A-BOMB July 25th, 2002, 12:06 PM


Anybody think of just some sandpaper on a cleaning jag?

McGuyver July 25th, 2002, 12:51 PM


I don't think sandpaper would be such a good idea. Even though it would probably get the metal shavings out, it would mess
up the barrel like maybe take some of the rifling off or something like that.

I think a really stiff brush is the best option.

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: McGuyver ]</small>

pyromaniac_guy July 26th, 2002, 09:04 PM


instead of useing normal solder or even lead to fill a barrel to drill it, look for 'potting metal' i know msc sells it here in the
states... it comes in two versions, a 'high' metling point material that flows at about 150c and sells for like 20 or 30 bux a
pound, and then there is the 'good stuff' an indium gallium alloy IIRC... it metls at something like 60 centrigrade, so then all
you need is a big pot of boiling water...

Energy84 July 27th, 2002, 05:14 AM


Bad idea. The temperatures generated from simply drilling the holes will be far in excess of 60 or even 150 degrees C.
Especially on hard steel like a gun barrel, I wouldn't doubt if the temps could reach 250 or higher. You'd just need to use a
sharp bit, lots of cutting fluid and patience...

Ron McDonald August 8th, 2002, 05:11 AM


First I just want to make sure that nobody ever tries to silence a shot gun. It is really fun once, then you pick the metal out of
your skin. The desings these guys post will work fine, just make it as long as you feel comfortible with. Subsonic ammo is the
key. The silencer will only take care of the expanding gas, not the micro sonic boom from the bullet. Sub sonic ammo has less
stopping power, but the squirrels in my back yard have not complained about the difference yet. I like subsonic ammo better
than silencers, because it is legal.

rjche August 15th, 2002, 10:01 PM


To silence a 22, cut the barrel off 2 inches from the bolt face.

then put on the barrel stub a 12 inch piece of 1.5 inch brass sink drain pipe.

Use metal washers to mount the pipe on the barrel stub as close to the breech as possible, with one washer at the end of the
barrel. That washer has holes drilled in it so gas can pass back to the most rearward washer.

3 inches in front of the barrel end, another washer is soldered inside,

hole in that washer is 3/8 inch.

Every 3 inches do the same but for the end of the pipe use a rubber washer made by crazy gluing innertube rubber to the end.
NO hole yet.

when glued, trim excess off the outside of the pipe. This is a flexible orfice to avoid the pop of a projectile passing through a
rigid orfice.

To get the hole fire a shot through it, cut a 22 lead so all the round front is gone and its a flat cylinder faced lead slug.

put the end against a wood plank and shoot a hole in the rubber.
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use a red hot nail to open that hole up to about 3/8 inches.

This can silence the blast to about the same peak sound level that the bolt of a ruger 10/22 makes as it actions.

22 LR ammo leaves the muzzle at about 950 FPS. so the sound is little.

Sound goes up exponentially as you get above about 800 FPS, and at 1050 it goes up explosively to a very loud noise
indeed.

At about 950 its still not very loud, but you are getting more bullet energy, and a little less bullet drop with distance.

Good deadly to 50 yards on hard headed targets. At 100 yards it makes a several inch deep flesh wound, but not instantly
serious.

All 22 LR ammo burns about the same in a 2 inch bbl. It does not reach mach 1 till about 2.5 to 3 inches. By using 2 inches
allmost all commercial 22 ammo will not crack as it exits the silencer.

both std vel and Hi speed shoot about the same.

The short barrel cuts pressure on the powder before it has burned up, and it just stops burning, and piles up in the silencer.

Do shake it out now and then. Don't want to convert your soldered silencer into a meltdown.

Remember putting ANYTHING on the end of a rifle barrel makes it shoot more or less way off what it used to. Silencers on
snipe rifles are usually never removed for its hard to get them back exactly the same, and accuracy suffers at distance.

For emergency use, tying a pillow over the end of the barrel is ok for close up use, like 20 yards. Bolt action rifle with std
velocity ammo can be very quiet this way. The bullet shoots through the pillow for a distance of about 3 or 4 inches. Test it
before trusting it.

shooting so the barrel end is inside the car, at least a foot from the exit window, with the windown down only enough to let the
bullet out without danger of hitting the glass, greatly quietens boom, but not crack. Use std velocity ammo. Same goes for
shooting out holes in buildings, etc.

The trouble with soda pop bottle silencers is the flexible sides do not attenuate the sound much. Much better to use a rigid
bottle, or

put a sleeve of innertube rubber snug over the bottle to stop the sound exiting its sides.

bicycle innertube rubber slipped over the brass silencer tube also quietens it some.

rjche August 22nd, 2002, 09:49 PM


For long barreled rifles like marlin 39a, drill with half inch drill into barrel end for distance of 6 inches. make a plug to fit the
drilled hole for a new barrel end. Drill it with quarter inch drill.

The plug must be a tight fit so no play exists. solder it in, or use epoxy. If must be at least half inch long plug.

This will radically silence 22LR std vel. rounds, and the long bbl slows them down a tad so they very seldom crack even on cold
days.

Also it takes a skilled eye to spot the end plug if you do it well, crown it and blue it. If range persons question what ammo you
are using have some sub sonic low power stuff to show em, or say you are burning up some very old ammo that has lost lots
of its power. Better yet, don't take it to a range. The end plug must be about half to 3/4 inch long so looking into the barrel
from the front it looks normal.

Use 22LR std vel. Other subsonic stuff is very quiet with this end chamber. This silencer works best on long barrel guns. Not
recommended for 16 18 or 20 inch bbls. short bbls exit pressure is too high, and velocity exceeds mach 1 even for std vel. BBl
friction past the 16 inch distance exceeds push on the bullet, so bullets slow down in bbls past about 16 inches for 22. Also
exit pressure drops a lot in long bbls due to heat transfer and plain old volume expansion.
That's why such a low volume end chamber does so well on long bbls.

BTW in Finland mufflers are required by law on both autos and firearms. They have lots of data on silencers on a website
there.

Search silencers on Google, and search each google page of urls for one going to finland. I think they have \fi\ in their url.
lots of charts on pressure, velocity, volume, noise, etc. They also show commercial designs.

Zyklon_B August 23rd, 2002, 05:11 PM


Are there no free sources of firearm silencers? I would think so.

xoo1246 August 23rd, 2002, 05:56 PM


Specify "free source". Is that like a natural resource? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Anyhow, anyone from Finland?, is it correct that anyone can purchase silencers since they are not part of a weapon? Can
foreigner purchase them too without suspision.

zaibatsu August 23rd, 2002, 06:28 PM


Forgot to add, suppressors can also be bought freely in the UK by anyone, whether it be fullbore or air weapons.

McGuyver August 24th, 2002, 12:12 AM


rjche, did you use a drill press to do that, or just wing it? It seems like it be pretty hard to keep the drill bit straight. I guess
once you get it started you'd be okay but, if you don't- your fucked.
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Not a bad idea though, very slick. :cool:

Kdogg August 24th, 2002, 02:50 AM


"Are there no free sources of firearm silencers?"
Free? No, ive never seen a place that gives away anything that could be used as a silencer. Unless you mean like a pillow or
somthing, But I have always wondered about lawn mower mufflers, they look like they would work. (not the round ones, but
the hollow tubular ones.) I think I will expiriment with this.

Harry August 26th, 2002, 02:07 PM


Even simply drilling out the end chamber will give some benefit, without the plug. Sort of a half-baked flash suppressor effect.
Not like a .22LR has any muzzle flash, but some benefit may be reaped in terms of report heard by user. Anybody have a
.223 bull barrel they'd like to try this on?

McGuyver August 26th, 2002, 09:36 PM


Kdogg, I'm quite sure those kind of mufflers have some kind of metal baffles in them. Like pieces of sheet metal to reflect
the sound.

So if you want to use one of those you'll have to drill holes through the baffles for the bullet to pass through. It will probably
silence quite well though- good idea.

Energy84 August 26th, 2002, 11:10 PM


Uhhh, those straight lawn mower mufflers are straight through. They're like miniature dirtbike silencers. Anybody ever
inspected a dirtbike silencer? They're about a foot long, 3 inches in diameter and have a one inch hole through the middle.
Intended for *gasp* silencing! :D It'd be nice though if you could find one that has about a half inch hole instead. It'd
probably be easier to silence a rifle then. Nice and convienient too because you can get custom silencers made of pretty much
anything including steel, aluminum and titanium.

Kdogg August 27th, 2002, 12:10 AM


its not completly hollow, its got like metal disks in them that the exhaust pass around. (Mine does anyways)You would simply
have to put a small hole in those for the bullet to pass through.

McGuyver August 27th, 2002, 12:29 AM


Yeah I thought most of them had baffles. Of course there are a lot of different kinds, so I guess some could be hollow.

I'm sure the baffles will help though, since they reflect sound and pressure and also slow the escaping gas down.

Keep us posted on your progress. Also, how are you planning to attach it to your gun?

Deja_W August 27th, 2002, 02:07 AM


At this time most suppressers used in law enforcement are very similar to a barrel extension, with holes drilled in it then
around this baffles are placed, then the outer casing. The reason is that suppressers made in this fashion are more reliable,
while still retaining optimum sound reduction. Most long guns can be fitted with an internal suppressor, of this nature; this will
lower velocity of the projectile, but in most cases it will not affect accuracy too much. Most rifle barrels are made of a type of
aluminum, it has a name, but I cant think of it, but it isnt to hard to drill a hole in one, if you have a sharp drill bit, and high
speed drill. This is a proven fact. I paid the $200 tax to have a silencer professionally attached to an AR-15 upper receiver
converted to fire .22lr ammo.Yes suppressers are legal in America, but you have to pay. I was with the guy when he did it, all
he did was remove the barrel, cut it down to 10, slap it in a vise and used a dermal like tool to drill 12 holes in it. After that
he welded six disks on, and filled the spaces with layers of screen mesh, and cotton fiber. The end cap was attached to the
outer sleeve, and then could be screwed on, of off, to allow for changing or cleaning of the filler material. The sleeve also
screwed onto the rear most disk to prevent any big gas leaks. In all it cost me $700, including the tax,and a back ground
check, but it was worth it. After seeing it done I know that I could do it my self.

In the end my weapon is very silent, even with standard ammo, because of the short barrel, the bullet seldom flies over
900fps. It has accuracy problems, 12 groups at thirty yards. And Ive had two feed ramp jams, though thats not the
suppressers fault.

Shotgun suppressors are big and clumsy, but they do work quite well. There is a company that makes an 18 extension barrel
that screws in like a standard choke tube, it has holes all along its sides. It has no outer casing to cover these holes, but they
claim when using sub sonic loads it reduces the noise level significantly. What significantly means is anyones guess. Besides,
who wants to add another 18 to an all ready long gun?
:rolleyes:

Anthony August 27th, 2002, 04:05 PM


$700 for 12" groups @ 30yds??? OMFG!

A barrel may be aluminium on the outside, but it's at least going to have a steel liner. Does anyone have any experience at
drilling this, which must be pretty hard steel? I'm wondering if normal HSS bits will do, or if you need something more pricey
like carbide bits.

I'm guessing you could drill out the end of a barrel, like in rjche's idea with a handheld drill if you didn't have a drill press. The
bore would act like a pilot hole to keep the bit straight. It'd probably help to take the bore out a bit at a time, so a drill bit set
that goes up in 0.5mm or 1mm incretments would be handy.
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zaibatsu August 27th, 2002, 04:31 PM
Like Anthony says, the barrel's going to be steel underneath, every(commercial) firearm I know of has at least a steel liner.
The steel used in gun barrels is pretty tough, but I've drilled into an old fucked up one with HSS drill bits, it was tough though,
but that was with a hand-held power drill, a drill press is recommended.

And, like Anthony says, 12" groups at 30yards are shite, how could it possibly be that bad? If it isn't a typo, you got fucked
over.

jelly August 30th, 2002, 05:07 PM


@Zyklon_B
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial,
Helvetica">Are there no free sources of firearm silencers? I would think so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2"
face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">of course... take a look at the very effective "spud silencer", used by IRA terrorists for one-
shot terror tactics :D

<a href="http://jelly146.tripod.com/spud" target="_blank">Spud Silencer</a>

<small>[ August 30, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: jelly ]</small>

Deja_W August 30th, 2002, 10:04 PM


Im sorry that was a miss print, most barrels are made of stainless steel, not aluminum. Sorry about that.
After the initial shake down, Ive gotten rid of the jamming problem, and I can now get 1.5 group at 50 yards, not 30. Im told
that this will still improve, it has to clear the grooves out before itll shoot any better. But I started with a blow back conversion
unit, the wrong twist rate (1 in 9 instead of 1 in 12) and the wrong groove diameter. So what can you expect? On top of all that
the ammo I was using Im now told I shouldnt use (aquilla superhornet) the bullet is two light (20-grain or something like
that), and to fast, to be stabilized in the short barrel. So I switched to aquilla .22lr thumper rounds, the 60-grain bullet is
effectively stabilized in the barrel, and its much quieter.
The real advantage to this gun is the fact that in less then sixty seconds I can change the bolt and upper receiver and have
my old full power rifle back. Or I can just change the bolt, and I can fire sub sonic .223 out of the silenced barrel.
The guy who did the job knew what he was doing, he used hardened steel drill bits that were just sharpened, and after half the
holes were done he re sharpened the bit.
Again sorry for the confusion, this will teach me to not try to explain anything after working 19 hours straight.

Deja_W August 30th, 2002, 11:34 PM


The 1.5 is in inches, I just needed to clarify that...

------------------------
next time use the edit post function - kingspaz

<small>[ August 31, 2002, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

zeocrash October 4th, 2002, 06:18 AM


From what i have researched, you can fit a permenant silencer by drilling holes in the endo of your barrel, sticking a can full of
flame retatdent wadding over it. the silencer must be able to be removed as the wadding will burn out eventually
for a non permenant one which doesnt scratch your rifle, take your pipe desigh nad put some plasic spacers on, this will mean
that it does not scratch your gun
--------------------
Does the fact that you're dyslexic mean that you can't use a spell check? And you can't realise that you're typing KeWl ShIt? -
Zaibatsu

<small>[ October 04, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]</small>

subsonic June 2nd, 2003, 09:51 PM


Hi, this is my first post in this forum. Yes, this thread is old - but it was very useful, thanks a lot! In fact it was the reason why
I visitied this Forum the first time. Please excuse my poor english.

I want to mention that I think the 22LR is underestimated. I just shot through a 2 inch thick Phonebook as if it was butter. If
this was a humans head I think it would be pretty lethal.

The Walther "P22 target" is a very good choice for improvised supressors (for a .22). The barrel weight can be removed which
gives some nice Space to mount a Supressor on it. Ok, some Parts of that Walther are not built for eternity (some screws) and
it is also pretty expensive. But it is good when it comes to hit the target precisely. While my SIG P220 just acts like a shotgun
the walther has a very good accuracy.

I have made a supressor for it and tested it. It works very well. First I used some very slow Z-Lang Ammo, it was very silent,
but it gave me some reloading Problems due to the little gas amount (224 m/s). The ballistic Crack Table I found following a
link you provided here was VERY useful, thanks again. Then I used some Fiocci MAXAC (315m/s). The crack sound was louder,
but the suppressor was still very effective. For the future I think I will buy some Ammo that has around 290 meters per second
. BTW: the sonic crack already starts at about 290 and rises up to about 400 meters! so using 329m/s will still produce about
a 120 dezibel crack although it flies theoreticly at subsonic speed.

you really need this table:


http://guns.connect.fi/rs/bulnoise.html

I used an Alu-Tube (200*30mm) containing a big compression Chamber and 4 little chambers. The Chambers were seperated
with some "Screw-underlayers" (30*1.7mm, hole 8mm). These Metal-slices are laying on some Keybunch-rings (31mm) which
fit very thightly (have to use some brute force to reduce the spirals diameter) into the Tube. On the other side they are fixed
with some steel-repair-epoxy that I pressed into the corners/gaps. So one Seperator is a Sandwich of: Keybunch-Ring/Screw-
Underlayer/Epoxy. The sizes of the little Chambers are unregular, between 15 and 20mm. The construction is very stiff and
stabile and weights about 180 Grams.
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I also used some epoxy to fix a Metalring on the muzzleside that fits exactly on the barrel and has a Screw to fix it. While this
epoxy-part was still soft, I used a Rod in the barrel, as someone suggested, to make sure the holes are on the right place(!).
As you see, the hole is 8mm, but the .22LR is only about 5mm diameter. So there is 1.5mm Spare Space around the bullet
(or the rod). Don't worry, this spare Space does not reduce the silencers efficiency significantly.

When I tested it with the 224 m/s Ammo I shot against the ground, a piece of earth, about 10 Meters far away (sorry, I am
not familar with "feet"). The loudest Sound I heared was the impact of the bullet when it hit the ground.

All parts were bought in a supermarket but the Alu-Tube which was taken from an old vacuum cleaner / hoover.

Since Supressors are illegal where I live, i just buried it waterproof in the forest. That's ok, there won't be a kid using it to
shoot himself or someting, it's only a strange tube.

I know, building a supressor is almost trivial - anyway, I hope this was useful.

Bigfoot June 2nd, 2003, 11:40 PM


Just in case anyone need a transliteration:

screw underlayer = washer

Subsonic, for a "foot" think approximately 1/3 meter. Or, the length of your shoe. But don't worry, write your posts in metric
units, we'll all know what you're talking about.

aussie_boy August 10th, 2003, 11:50 PM


i read of a story in soldiers of fortune a couple of years ago that they legally sold silencers in kit form that was perfectly
legal(from what i can remember)and you didn't need a licience i might be wrong but i will try and find out

stickfigure August 11th, 2003, 01:05 AM


Most everything you buy in a kit can be considered legal. It becomes illegal once you assemble, manufacture, use, etc.

To clarify the legal silencer issue silencers are legal in 35 States, D.C. is considered a state in the prohibited list which is
composed of the more highly populated and liberal States.

www.advanced-armament.com has a list of states and a map that puts it into perspective pretty well.

Deja_W did you have it permenantly mounted to your barrel? I would think that a factory made detachable would have been a
better choice, cost about the same, been a lot more reliable, and accurate. The AAC M4-2000 would have cost you $625 plus
the $200 stamp-tax, also you would have got a factory warranty with it. Anyway, thats probably the one I would invest in.

On the .22lr issue, this is the prefered round in use by CIA and other Black-Ops units since WWII. Well placed shots can kill or
injure depending on what your purpose is. The .22lr is easy to suppress and commonly available. AWC makes a really nice
model based on the Ruger MKII pistol called the Amphibian II and it's made for getting wet and salty, requiring little
maintanence afterward.

Some of the ideas expressed in earlier replys are rather scary, silencers should be machined and made to exact tolerences.
Imagine what would happen if somone tried to silence a .338 Laupa Mag. with a piece of pipe, washers spot welded to the
inside and it secured with a couple of bolts drilled into the barrel? Something akin to a 360 degree washer shotgun! Try
something small at first BB gun, .22lr and invest in a really nice milling machine w/horizontal and vertical feeds and lathe. In
the long run it will be cheaper than medical bills. I know a few people who have tried stupid gun tricks. One of them involved
alcohol, a .375 H&H Magnum, a foot, and a few years of physical theropy. Oh, ya and the removal of some floating ribs for
bone replacement.:eek: We go big in Montana, Rrreeeaalll Big!!! I don't what to preach but, go if you don't know much about
guns, go small. It's a lot less painful

Charlie Workman August 12th, 2003, 03:14 AM


Stick Figure- What you say about kits is generally true, but not for silencers. At least in the US. The ATF has come down hot
and heavy on people caught with silencer kits. Any part that can be used in a silencer counts as illegal possession. Doesn't
seem right, but it has stood up in court. Back in the late 70's- early 80's, Shotgun News had dozens of ads for the kits. You
could find the tubes a couple of pages away, sold seperately. Hundred bucks or so sent to the two vendors and you had a
complete silencer. Designs and effectiveness varied, but I always felt most were overpriced for what you got. Some of the
ported barrel .22 kits were pretty sweet, though

"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"


-Gidget

matey August 12th, 2003, 07:46 AM


any links to some plans for 22 apreciated :cool:

zaibatsu August 12th, 2003, 09:11 AM


You need to learn the very basic and simple principles of silencers first, and then you can design a reasonably effective
silencer for most calibres. I'd check out some pages like this (http://guns.connect.fi/rs/Reflex.html) to give you some ideas.

ozbourne October 17th, 2003, 03:27 PM


Originally posted by CyclonitePyro
(In various dreams)
I experimented with the bottle types, I heated the end of them to make them soft and then shot a hole through it to make a
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perfectly placed hole, they work well but are not practical and are large.
I make the silencers for my Ruger 10/22, I also have a Bultler Creek folding stock in it and a scope, and some smaller
accessories like an extended mag, release, auto bolt release and bolt buffer.
Use subsonic rounds for it, their velocity is just below the speed of sound so the make no sonic boom while flying, that is
where most of your sound comes from, I buy 500rd bricks of them and they don't last long with a 50rd clip.
The silencer I use now is a piece of 1/2" PVC pipe, it slides right on the barrel and has and L shaped notch in it so it can slide
on past the sight on the end of the barrel and then you twist in so it locks in place and won't slide off. In the middle of it is a
metal washer held in place by small sloped nails and PVC glue, The inner hole of the washer is just right for a .22 bullet. On
the end are two rubber grommets held in place by nails and PVC glue. It is painted flat black and looks just like a
maufactured silencer and works great.
I built it so that neighbors wouldn't complain, and it works well for its purpose. If not for them then I really wouldn't have cared
about the noise.
It works nice for shooting animals, Cananda Geese for example, one drops, and the one next to it has no freakin idea what
happened, where if not for the silencer, the whole flock would have flew away.

------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

Can someone post some pics of this type of homemade silencer or send to my email? All the links for pics from the last two
years are dead.
Anyone form the UK want to try to send me a silencer to Canada from http://www.soundmoderators.co.uk/sak22lr.htm
Anyhow worth a try.

DBSP October 17th, 2003, 04:59 PM


Now what was the point of quoting the hole post? There are basicly no info on the contruction of the silencer itself in that post
and it is therefore worthless.

There are sufficient info in this thread to get the idea of how a silencer is improvised, I suggest you read it again. And ther is
really now idea to post a pic of a silencer, it's just a pieace of pipe. no more no less.

The inside of the pipe is whats interesting. I could have posted some pics of my silencer but since my brother got pissed and
smashed one of the ends in to tight I can't loosen it without damaging the silencer and revealing the inside of it. So no pics,
sorry.

ozbourne October 17th, 2003, 05:17 PM


Sorry about post ing his whole post but I am new at posting and didnt know any other way. yes the inside is what I needed to
see , the 2 nails holding the washer etc....Is there any steel wool or any insulator of any kind needed or is it just air that is
trapped with this type of home jobby?
I would like to make one so my neighbors wont complain about me shooting rodents on my acreage.

ozbourne October 21st, 2003, 12:57 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by CyclonitePyro
The PVC I found is called Rigid PVC, get the 1/2" It's grey instead of white, I think it's used for electrical stuff, like putting
wires through. It makes an almost perfect fit. My dream silencer is 10" long and slides over the barrel so 8" protrudes off the
barrel. And yes you're right I used the washer in the center to make two separate chambers. And the grommets go at the end
of your silencer, you don't have to use grommets, you could use washers but I found perfectly fitting grommets. And then just
make sure you find a way to make them stay in place.

------------------
I bought the 1/2 rigid pvc and it seems to fit very tight but does fit with a bit of pressure. What I need to know is what size of
washer fits in there? What hole size is a good fit for the bullet? What are grommets? Im going to get one of these to work and
this one seems the easiest.

xmarinevet October 21st, 2003, 01:45 AM


Clog busters sold at hard ware stores for about $8 make ecxellent silencers and work for about 50 shots with 22 shorts. It
knocks the muzzle blast off and the sonic crack.

ozbourne October 22nd, 2003, 10:25 PM


I got one of the PVC silencers to work. The loudest sound now comes from the clank fron the bolt buffer pin. I guess the next
thing to do is change that. I got the washers to stay in place by using 2 pvc joiners with a short piece of pvc between them. It
actually works great. I also used rubber washers and a plastic bottle cap on the end.

Garbage November 29th, 2003, 07:22 PM


I have studied silencers for a long time, after hard work I made a good one (picture below). The most difficult thing is to get
the correct alignment of the gu ns b arrel a nd the sile ncer, this is VERY important (incorre ct alignment could blow up the
silencer). After some experiments I have projected an effective silencer with PVC pipes and steel wool:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/pictures/20.jpg

The military silencers are often many sequential chambers that permit the expansion of the sound blast as the picture shows:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/Su1.1.jpg

These silencers have an excellent efficiency. The problem about make it at home, is that you will never achieve the perfect
a l i g n m e n t of the suppre ssor s b arrel with the gun without any lo ose, the hole of this silencers have the ex actly d iameter of
the projectile stamping the sound and the gas at the chambers.
I have tired to make silencers with iron and cupper pipes and I have achieved the same efficiency with PVC pipes, but the iron
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suppressor was too heavy. So I begun to use just light materials like PVC and wood.
The truth about the suppressors is that almost anything can silence the noise of a shot. You could use, for example, a
plastic bottle tied in the muzzle of the gun with tape. This silencer will work just in the first shot after that it will have a very low
efficiency and if you use this sealed silencer in a gun with strong caliber like M4 it will blow up in the first shot. You could also
put a pillow in the end of the g un s b arrel this will provide a go od efficiency, but as the first it s d ispo sable.
R e v o lvers can t be silenced because the most of the no ise escape b etween the cylinder a nd barre l. Im no t sure if a shotgun
can be silenced becau se when the projectiles leave the barrel they open an angle of tra jectory (that s why it s so destructive in
small distance).
Projectiles that travel faste r than th e sound can t be silenced too. The travel of projectile creates a loud sonic blast.

The silencer here is very simple and has a good efficiency:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/sup.htm

NickSG November 29th, 2003, 07:46 PM


Suppressor, not silencer.

Shotguns can have suppressors, but becuase of the powerful muzzle blast, coming up with materials that can withstand the
pressure but not weigh the gun down is pretty hard. The same goes with high powered rifles.

Most shotgun pellets are contained in a small plastic cup. After the cup accelerates 18-24 inches from the muzzle, the cup
breaks apart and the pellets are let loose. This makes it possible for a suppressor to be attached to the weapon.

ossassin November 30th, 2003, 12:37 AM


Well, if the individual projectiles are contained in this cup during the entire flight through the barrel, why does the choke make
such a huge difference? The projectiles must try to spread out inside of the barrel. This would mean that they would spread
out as soon as they left the barrel, which would make trying to build a supressor for a shotgun very difficult (unless you were
using slugs.) This is probably the reason reason why the military NEVER uses silencers on shotguns.

NOTE: The term "supressor" means something that lessens the overall report of the firearm. This includes flash and/or audio
supressors. The term "silencer," although inaccurate, does prevent confusion.

________________________________________________

My idea is to make one that uses the more modern design with individual chambers. http://www.geocities.com/ossassin2000/
supressor1.gif(Copy and paste.) The tubes would be either metal or PVC pipe. The outter pipe would be fairly wide, and the
inside pipe would be just wide enough to accomidate the barrel. The inside pipe would have wide grooves in it, running from
the end of the barrel to the front of the supressor. It would have the appearance of 3 or 4 thin bars. This is to allow air to flow
out of the pipe and into the chambers. The walls forming the chambers would be curved, and they would be glued on for PVC
pipe or welded for metal. The front wall of the supressor would simply be a wall like the others. The internal pipe would NOT
continue to the end; it would stop at the second to last wall. The front wall would only touch the external pipe. This is different
than the drawing.

A threaded end cap would be mounted to the barrel. The external pipe on the silencer would simply screw into it, with the end
of the barrel fitting inside of the inner pipe. This design would provide rigidity and keep the supressor from flying off when
firing.

Garbage, I suggest that you grind a little slot for your iron sights, so that once the supressor is pushed onto the rifle, it can be
twisted and locked into place.

My samply drawing is NOT to scale. I apologize for the poor quality; I didn't have any CAD programs readily available, so I
used paint. :)

NickSG November 30th, 2003, 01:23 AM


No, the pellets cannot spread until they are out of the cup. The cup prevents them from spreading until about 2 feet in flight,
in which the cup opens up freeing the pellets.

Shoot at some targets at close range. Inside of one foot you will not see any individual pellet holes becuase the cup has not
opened yet. After 2 feet is when you start to see the pellet holes. Otherwise you get one solid hole as if you fired a slug from
the gun.

ossassin November 30th, 2003, 01:39 AM


This is because the "bullets" haven't had time to spread out yet! :rolleyes: They spread out about 1 inch every 10 feet in an
18-inch barrel with an open choke. That's the standard formula for 00 buckshot; it's not exact. You never answered my
question. If they stay in the cup for so long without spreading out at all, why does the choke make such a HUGE difference???
I'm sorry, but I think your theory is flawed. (It's an interesting idea, though. You should try making a shotgun round like
that.)

I added alot to my previoius post. Go back and take a look.

NickSG November 30th, 2003, 02:09 AM


I do not have an answer about the choke, but ive seen frame by frame what a 12 guage does after its shot (with a high speed
camera). If I can find it I will post it.

"This is because the "bullets" haven't had time to spread out yet!" Even if there wasnt a cup, you would still find little half
circles around the edge of the hole. It wouldnt be a perfectly clean hole.

Garbage November 30th, 2003, 08:47 AM


That was an excellent idea ossassin, the slot works like a lock for the suppressor, it so good that the band clamp is now
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unnecessary:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/sub1.jpg

Some times is a good idea make the barrel go into the external pipe, you can make a long silencer without increase the guns
length.

ossassin November 30th, 2003, 12:54 PM


How could you make a long silencer without increasing the gun's length? It seems like you'd have to port the barrel. I've
always wondered how those integral supressors work. I haven't been able to find any sketches. Maybe they have a huge
expansion chamber that begins right after the barrel ends and extends to the breach. After that, they would have several
smaller, more standard chambers. It's just an idea.

Nick:
Maybe the reason why chokes make such a huge difference is that they control when the BB's leave the cup. A full choke would
help the cup hold its shape as it leaves the barrel, whereas an open choke would allow the cup to widen inside the barrel. Once
again, that's just a theory.

What did you guys think of my supressor design? Could it work? Should I try it?

PHAID November 30th, 2003, 01:56 PM


Ossassin a integral supressor normaly uses barrel porting of some kind and is extreamly hard to do unless you have the
proper tools to remove all burrs in the barrel.

With a little metal working you can make a small slim supressor for a .22 thats quite effective.

The overall length was 10 inches with a 1 inch tube and can keep the sound down to the point that you only hear the bolt and
bullet impact.

As for the shotgun supressors, all the designs ive viewed show them as barrel supressors so the choke and the type of ammo
used isnt a major issue.

ossassin December 3rd, 2003, 01:51 AM


I'm working on a full-sized PVC prototype, and I'm not sure what I should use for the baffles and spacers. I don't have access
to machining tools, and I'm afraid that PVC material will burn and melt if I try to shape it with a power-sander. Any
suggestions on what material I should use?

NickSG December 4th, 2003, 05:14 PM


http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-c/shotgun-shot-seq-1g.jpg

Theres some high speed photographs of a shell going off. Unfortunatly I dont know what size the shot is.

Garbage December 4th, 2003, 06:01 PM


I think that is possible make a suppressor for a shotgun, but the last end cap must have a bigger hole, because even with the
cup occur some spreading, that could destroy the suppressor. It will reduce the efficiency but could work.

ossassin December 4th, 2003, 08:04 PM


Also, keep in mind that different size shots and different length shells make a huge difference in how quickly the shot
spreads. Since the standard tactical load is usually 2 3/4" 00 shot, that's what you should design it for. Of all the possible
loads, this is probably the slowest to spread (except for slugs, of course.)

PHAID December 4th, 2003, 10:45 PM


Why the concern of the shot spread?

Just end your supressor even with the barrel, with good porting and a decent wrap to difuse the heat you will get an effective
supressor.

Garbage December 5th, 2003, 11:49 AM


Spreading of the bu llets is nt the only problem the cup could be locked in the ch ambers or in the holes of the in ternal pipe o f
the suppressor.

MP5Guy December 5th, 2003, 04:09 PM


Possession of a Threaded Tube, Baffle or distorted washer is by BATFE ruling and "Note The New E Addition" Explosives,
constitutes the possession of a Suppressor. Not MY words folks the New BATFE's and can be a pain in the buttocks.

Suppression of a firearm is nothing more than Slowing And Cooling the escaping gasses, remember this... A Can or Muzzle
Can will NEVER stop the Balistic Crack of any projectile traveling much over 1100 FPS. You first have to initially Slow the Gasses
and now cool them repeatedly to have the makings of an effective Firearms Suppressor, No Questions Asked. How do I know
this 40 plus years of trying to find the right conbination. Hey I don't know an Atom from a Bond but I do know Suppressors
and there is alot of BS contained above... PVC is an accident waiting to happen. Baffle Strikes are the BIGGEST Factor in the
manufacture of a Suppressor. They will HURT you if they happen in a Hi Velocity situation, Trust Me.

Slow,Cool this is the principle and that will never change. Keep safe my new friends, Please stay away from PVC. I know that it
is strong but pressure is stronger.
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MP

Jacks Complete December 5th, 2003, 05:25 PM


That photo sequence is very cool.

However, it does show quite clearly that the wad starts to expand quite rapidly. It is only about four wad lengths from the
muzzle, yet it is clearly already rippling back, and has definately expanded. At that stage, it isn't going to be happy hitting a
hole the same size as the barrel!

Just make the emd into a nice ramp shape, to squeeze the shot again, or make the hole at the end a bit bigger. Yes, you
lose more gas and make it louder, but hell, even commercial silenced shotguns are still audible at 300 meters, despite the
vast reduction in noise.

NickSG December 5th, 2003, 06:22 PM


MP5Guy-Supressors a made even for HV bullets, even for the AR15. Supressors are made to make shooting the gun fun, so
you can shoot without ear protection and not blow your ear drums out.

Some modern day snipers use supressors on the .308s and .223s. It doesnt get rid of the sonic crack, but it does get rid of
most of the muzzle noise. The bullet will make noise its entire journey, so it will be near impossible to tell where the shot
came from. This is especially good if your not in your own territory.

Now, for the ones that want to commit crimes with their suppressors, make sure to use PVC pipe (no thicker than 1/8 inch) and
only use it in high powered rifles. It will completely silence it and noone will know you did it. :D

MP5Guy December 5th, 2003, 08:18 PM


The sentence that contains the word NEVER in my post..... Either you have failed to read such or you are unaware of how a
suppressor functions in detail. One must Firstly have a decent Expansion Chamber and the best have Transfer Ports leading to
a Secondary Expansion Chamber. The gas blast in an efficent suppressor has to be upset on contact with the first baffle. This
upsetting is effected via the eliptic bevel cut into each secceeding baffle at an angle aprox. 27 degrees off the prior baffle.
This effect should run concurrent through the a series of at least 8 baffles. A final Expansion Chamber after the last baffle
further cools the remaining blast gas to it's effective temp determined by it's overall length. Here are a couple primers on the
subject have you the time to evaulate them. Thank You... PVC is again JUNK with regard to it's use in firearms suppressors as
is anything else intended to carry water or waste from your home. Let alone it's propensity to weaken accordingly with each
over pressurization.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/076968.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/img/076971.jpg

ossassin December 5th, 2003, 08:31 PM


MP5 Guy, wouldn't PVC work for pistol calibers? I was going to supress a .22, and it seems like PVC would be OK. Not everyone
has access to machining tools, you know. I wonder if it's possible to shape PVC material...

Garbage December 5th, 2003, 08:38 PM


MP5Guy is right, PVC is potentially dangerous when you use it in a gun with a strong caliber. After some time the pipes are
fatigued with to many explosions, (the PVC is not made to use in a gun), this also happens with many homemade guns. I
thinking about a suppre ssor made o f copper or aluminum p ipes

NickSG December 5th, 2003, 08:39 PM


Sorry to sound dumb, but what was the point of that post? I read your post, and I clearly stated that "It doesnt get rid of the
sonic crack, but it does get rid of most of the muzzle noise".

I am aware of how suppressors work and ive built a few of them for an old H&R .22 I had a few years ago. To answer the
above question, yes, you can use PVC for a .22, but you should never use any high pressure cartridges with it (in other words,
use subsonics). With iron or steel you can use any bullet you wish.

MP5Guy December 6th, 2003, 04:36 AM


Nick's Quote: "Now, for the ones that want to commit crimes with their suppressors, make sure to use PVC pipe (no thicker
than 1/8 inch) and only use it in high powered rifles. It will completely silence it and noone will know you did it".

Nick my post was not to berate you sir just to save some of your extremities from my former misconceptions throughout the
years.... Please continue with your PVC suppressors, it will save me the time in posts like this down the road. And Nick NO
Suppressor is completely silent, regardless of what you see in movies:rolleyes:

Even though I love the realm of explosives I do not play in their backyard for I would surely hurt myself... Now I'm going to
look up the major manufactures of PVC Pipe and buy some stocks...

MP:p

xyz December 6th, 2003, 09:01 AM


Didn't you get the feeling that he might have been being sarcastic?

I don't think he really reccomends the use of thin PVC silencers with high powered rifles :) .
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Jacks Complete December 6th, 2003, 12:36 PM


I too picked up a strong whiff of sarcasm in Nick's post.

I suspect that, without mod powers, it is the only way he can thin down the newbies who post stupid shit like "Use a water pipe
and a potato on your .50, its well l33t"

I have come up with a novel suppressor design for very low pressure loads, using a new type of plastic that melts at below 100
degrees. The idea is, if it is set onto a gun and used, it can then be "destroyed" before leaving, so that no-one can ask
questions.

Obviously, using it with a rifle or even decent pistol cartridge would screw it right up.

NickSG December 6th, 2003, 02:44 PM


Thank you guys, I was in fact being sarcastic with the PVC pipe thing. :)

However, I was being serious when I said some modern day snipers use suppressors on their rifles. Although you will still hear
the shot being fired, the bullet will be traveling great distances while staying supersonic, so without hearing the muzzle blast it
would be very hard locating where the shot came from.

xyz December 6th, 2003, 08:45 PM


Suppressors are also used because they greatly reduce muzzle flash and blast. They make it just about impossible to see the
muzzle flash at night as well as reducing the muzzle blast, meaning that the rifle won't kick up as much dust/leaves/whatever
when fired from the prone position.

ossassin December 6th, 2003, 09:28 PM


I'm glad that everyone is finally starting to get it. :) A silencer was not meant to allow a shooter to pick off enemies one by
one, leaving the rest entirely unaware of what is going on. They are meant for all-out combat, and they were designed to
make it hard to pinpoint the shooter's location. This is why it eliminates the muzzle blast, the muzzle flash, the dust
signature, etc. The sonic crack actually gives the shooter an advantage in most cases. Think about it: if a bullet flies right past
a target's head, and his line of sight is perpendicular to the bullet's path, he hears the sound on both sides of him. Obviously,
he will not be able to tell where the shot came from.

On a side note, a supressor is a very effective muzzle break.

7.62mikemike December 7th, 2003, 04:37 AM


There is a formula for measuring the speed of sound.The speed of sound varies greatly due to change in temperature.Break
out the 99 cent calculator. Temperature in F plus 459 = ? The Sq.root of ? X 49.06= the speed of sound

For example:Lets say it is 70 degrees F

70F + 459 = 529. The Sq. root of 529 =23 X 49.06 = 1128.38 FPS{Feet Per Second}--The Speed of Sound. The speed gets
lower as the temperature drops and higher as it rises.This formula works with any temperature.Give it a try.

xyz December 7th, 2003, 05:26 AM


There's an even easier way, if it's below 1050fps in normal conditions then it's going to be subsonic in most conditions.

The temperature of the chamber and the barrel length have much bigger effects on bullet velocity than the temperature of the
day.

Altitude also changes the speed of sound.

MP5Guy December 8th, 2003, 02:33 PM


A small degree. Change anything in these 3 factors and the SOS changes. Most calculations are based on "A Standard Day".
That being 59 Degrees F, At Sea Level,Barometric Pressure of 29.92" of Mercury. Temp is although the biggist variable with
regard to The SOS.

MP

ossassin December 9th, 2003, 12:18 AM


Why so much concern about the speed of sound? If you're going to make a supressor, It's going to be for one of two reasons:

1. You want to be hard to locate after a shot. For this, you don't need subsonic ammo. The bullet breaking the sound barrier
will make things very confusing for everyone around you. Refer to some earlier posts if you're not sure why.

2. You want it to be as quiet as possible. For this, you'll want something like a .22 with subsonic ammunition. This type of
setup would be used in situations where you probably won't be engaged in all-out combat. If anyone returns fire, your cover is
blown.

The military uses silencers for the reason #1. The combination of no muzzle blast, muzzle flash, dust signature, etc. and the
sonic crack from the bullet make it VERY hard to pinpoint the shooter or even approximate the direction that the shot came
from. Besides, it's nearly impossible to supress most military calibers, anyway.

xyz December 9th, 2003, 04:48 AM


I only posted the subsonic thing to show that it was not as simple as 7.62mike thought.
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There are some "suppressors" (not really but I can't think of another word) that are being made that don't reduce the sound
at all, they just diffuse and redirect it so that the noise appears to have come from all directions instead of just one. This
would only be good for making the shooter hard to locate though, not for stealth.

ossassin December 9th, 2003, 10:02 AM


That's basically what I was talking about before with reason #1. I'm sorry if this isn't what you mean. I'm not trying to waste
your time. :)

http://www.geocities.com/mr_tack_driver/example.gif

Instead of hearing the sound coming from the muzzle blast, where the blue line is, he would hear it coming from the bullet
path, where the green lines point. This is why supressors are still very effective on super-sonic calibers.

NOTE: You may have to right click the picture and hit "Show Picture" to get it to display.

xyz December 11th, 2003, 04:21 AM


Yeah, it wasn't what I meant, they don't silence or suppress any part of the noise and the weapon is still every bit as loud as it
was before. The difference is that the noise from the weapon is directed off in all directions instead of mostly to the front of
the shooter. This causes a kind of "rapid artificial echo" for want of a better word and makes it just about impossible to
determine where the shot came from.

Thunden December 18th, 2003, 10:44 AM


Garbage,
I built (in my drems) the silencer you posted,which is great BTW, but I used ceramic wool instead of steel wool and it worked
fine...just thought you'd like to know.

Thunden

Garbage December 22nd, 2003, 02:33 PM


I think that any material fluffy and porous could work. I have tired to make suppressors with soaker, tissue paper, wool, and
fiberglass mat. Some materials have a better efficiency than others, for me steel wool was efficient enough and was cheap.

PHAID December 22nd, 2003, 07:01 PM


Steel wool is ok for the short term but it will begin to rust and break down after you fire a couple of shots.
Fiberglass insulation works well as does aluminum or brass screen.
If your looking for a quick disposable supressor then all you need is some 1" ID PVC along with a 1" OD piece and get some
cardboard washers.
Cut the 1" OD pvc into 1/2" lengths and make enough cardboard washers to get 3 stacked between each spacer.
To get a little better performance you can make the spacers 3/4" and have rolled hardware cloth in each or use aluminum
window screen.

ossassin December 31st, 2003, 06:12 PM


Any ideas on how to attach it to the barrel? My barrel is tapered, so I'm having trouble finding some PVC pipe that will slide
onto the barrel snugly.

By the way, I'm having some computer problems, so I won't be posting as often as usual until I get it fixed.

PHAID December 31st, 2003, 07:57 PM


For the mounting you can glue in smaller diameter PVC sections on the mounting end of the supressor to get it close to size
then use electrical tape to build up the barrel to the needed diameter to hold the supressor in place.
It is a crude method and along with the baffles touching the bullet as it goes through them, Your acuracy will suffer but for
close in work its fine.

stickfigure January 1st, 2004, 04:02 PM


It sound like with all that crap stuff in your PVC pipe and it crammed on the end of you barrel you would be better off using a
potato:)

Why not take the time to learn how to use a Tap and Ream set and get some quality pipe short and make a good metal
suppressor? Geez, people have making them for years in their garages out of metal scraps and they work great. Instead of
wasting your time with cardboard and plastic, pick up a good book and read.

PHAID January 1st, 2004, 04:48 PM


The supressor that was mentioned was an effective gas trapping design that can be quite effective.
What is the point of giving descriptions for designs that you need the metal working skills/equipment that most dont have?
If you like i can give you the plans for a simple design that takes only a few parts that have to be done on a lathe.

Garbage January 1st, 2004, 05:22 PM


ossassin
If you don t have any pipe with the correct diameter of you r barrel you can put s ome s ilver tape on it. T he tape will increase
the b arrel s d iameter sufficient for the pipe. Don t use too m uch tape o r the s uppressor will stay loos e in th e barrel.
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jonesy January 2nd, 2004, 11:21 AM
Here, in australia one of the most common methods is the oilfilter supressor mention earlier. befor books such as workbench
silencers etc, this was the most commom method and depending on which parts of town u were in u might stumble across a
filter or to with a hole in the end.
Anyways most people just help the filter over the muzzle of the firearm and thus many limbs were lost over the years.
Anyways enough on the histroy, a fried of mine a few years back used a large deisel truch oil filter as a basis for his silencer,
and through trial and error tried various differant sounddending material in it (after pullingout the origional). He believed that
a combination of foam and insulatin with verysmall dash or gun oil was brilliant on his 303 lever action.
I think this sounds kinda suss, iv never herd of a liquid working in a supressor???
has any??

Try to make an effort with the spelling/grammar/punctuation, please

PHAID January 2nd, 2004, 07:52 PM


There are alot of "wet cans" made by most manufactures in the last several years.
A short list off the top of my head for the liquids used are.
lithium greese
urin
water
penut butter
bearing greese

Lithium greese is the most popular

ossassin January 2nd, 2004, 08:13 PM


What is tapping and reaming? Are you saying that I can make a metal supressor without heavy equipment?

PHAID January 2nd, 2004, 08:53 PM


You could probably farm out most of what you need to a machine shop.
The only 2 parts that could be a problem would be the endcaps.
The thread on rockets gave me an idea for the baffles that would give you a good story for having them made at a shop.
The baffles basicly look like a short rocket nozzel so you can use the excuse that you are a rocket hobbiest who makes their
own engines and want some nozzels for your new designs.
Its hard to come up with a good story for threaded endcaps though so you will have to find another way to get those made.
My material of choice is Al because it machines well and has great thermal properties alon with the light weight.
Just remember its 10 years and 100,000 fine for having one even if it doesnt work.
When i was a dealer the cost was $3,000 for 3 years on the lisence but that was several years ago.

stickfigure January 3rd, 2004, 05:52 AM


It's more correct to say a Tap and Die set, sorry. You can easily make a suppressor without heavy equipment. I have a book
called Zips, Pipes and Pens it has a picture of a submachine gun that a man made in prison that had a suppressor built into it.
One if the most effective suppressors ever made only has a Barrel tube that connects to an end cap and that of course is part
of the outer jacket. The barrel tube is drilled and has discs made of a non-flammable material that fills the space between the
barrel and jacket. The pistol is the OSS Highstandard which is still used today by US CIA and Black Ops. Suppressors don't
have to be fancy. Even if you were to buy a threaded fake supressor 80% of the work is already done just cut it open and drill
the barrel, burr it out and fill it with brass mesh filter screen. Ream the end caps and reseal it. It may take you a couple years
to learn some basic metal working skills but it will pay off in the long run.

lamar pye January 3rd, 2004, 07:44 PM


The pictures posted by MP5 guy are the only effective, longlasting and up to date design discussed here so far. What he
showed was a version of K baffels originally designed by mickey finn and they are still in use on american MP5's today. The
idea is to have a bevel on the baffel surface to redirect the gases into the space created by the cone.....this robs the gasses
of energy and reduces the sound of the shot. As far as deburring holes in a ported barrel goes.....use a 1/8 metal ball tip
grinder on a dremel tool to take down the sharp edges......And unless you want a throwaway can don't use plastic pipe, leave
the plumbing to the plumbers

ShadowAlchemist January 7th, 2004, 01:49 AM


My question is for CyclonitePyro..One thing with your method that doesnt seem right, is your silencer has no form of packing in
it. I do realize that .22 rifles dont have an abundance of muzzle energy, but i would have thought that more would be required
to muffle the 'crack'.
Most designs i have seen for silencers have some form of insulated packing to keep noise to a minimum, but on the other
hand I also have no reason to doubt what you say is true.
Therefore:
How does the suppressor cope while firing successive shots?
Can you estimate the number of shots fired through a single unit before it bit the dust; They are temporary right?
Have you had any problems with the washer shifting after continuous useage? Therefore obstructing bullet path :(
Have you observed a noticable decrease in accuracy and/or range.
Have you tried testing different types of ammo? HV, subsonic etc.
If so have you noted obvious Db level variations, accuracy comparisons and/or stopping power?
I hope you dont mind the questions, but thou who has tried and tested a device, will surely know if the device can last the test
of time :)
I also believe that mass production follows research and development. Not vice versa ;)
The PVC pipe you are referring to is called conduit and is typically used for sheilding electrical cable. Unfortunately I only have
ORANGE conduit in my possession....DOH!

xyz January 7th, 2004, 04:52 AM


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Errr... the crack that you are referring to is the noise of the bullet breaking the sound barrier and no matter how good your
silencer is you won't get rid of this.

The only way to get rid of it is to slow the bullet below the speed of sound or (the easier way) use subsonic ammunition.

This is also the reason why it is unwise to use HV ammo with a silencer if you are silencing a calibre that is almost subsonic (ie
you won't lose much energy by making it subsonic).

The purpose of a silencer is simply to slow down the speed at which the gases escape from the firearm, sure, packing helps to
do this, but packing isn't a neccessity in a silencer (think coke bottle silencer).

A lot of people here don't like it when a newbie turns up asking questions left right and centre without searching for the
answers themselves. The other thing that people don't like is being asked to perform tests on things. If you wan't those
questions answered, why not make one and do the tests yourself? Obviously, the durability etc. of the silencer is going to
depend on the materials and how well it was made.

NickSG January 7th, 2004, 12:24 PM


If any of you were to actually make a suppressor, the best load IMHO is Aguilas 60 grain LRN. It uses the same amount of
powder (but with a shortened case) as regular HV loads, but because of the heavy 60 grain bullet, the velocity out of a rifle is
about 950 FPS. Despite low velocities, this bullet has nearly 40 FPE more muzzle energy than standard subsonic loads and at
100 yards keeps 30 percent more energy than standard subsonic loads. Its high sectional density gives this load more
penitration than most of the other rounds out there. The drawback to this load is a 1:9 barrel must be used to get the bullet
to fully stablize. Its still decently accurate in my M60 however (1.5 inch five shot groups at 25 yards).

Edit: Tests show it will penitrate 23-25 inches in ballistic gel at 200 meters, close to what a .45 FMJ will get at three feet

ShadowAlchemist January 7th, 2004, 11:20 PM


This reply didnt get off to a good start. For one i somehow didnt realize that this thread had 4 pages(only read 1) and 2, I
didnt mean to offend anyone.
Xyz, Believe me i would love nothing more than to test out a suppressor on my own firearm and to record the results...the only
problem is that i dont own a firearm!
To be perfectly honest, guns are not my forte. But as you have probably noted by now, I am extremely interested in the
concept, hence the numerous questions :)

DimmuJesus January 8th, 2004, 04:44 AM


It is very true that without using subsonic ammo you cannot completely silence a firearm. But it has also been pointed out that
depending on what you are using a suppressor for, it may not be completely necessary. One use that hasn't really been
mentioned yet is that suppressors can save your hearing! They are often referred to as "a gentlemen's accessory." They can
be used to spare the ears of everyone around the fired shots. For this purpose it is not necessary to completely silence a shot.

For a shot as quiet as possible with the use of a suppressor, go subsonic. Many types of .22 subsonic ammunition have been
made mention in this thread. I myself have ordered some 22LR 60gr Aguila SSS rounds. The .22 is the most popular because
it is the easiest to silence. However there has not been as much mention about the .45 cal bullet. For more power, although
more difficult to construct a suppressor for, the .45 is the way to go. Most .45 ammunition is already subsonic to begin with. I
would like to someday own a silencer for a 1911 pistol. There are many places to get threaded barrels for them.

Most of you already know all of this I'm sure, but this is directed to those who have mentioned they are fairly new to firearms
reading this thread. I hope this will help out those of you new to firearms as some basic working guidelines.

NickSG January 8th, 2004, 05:23 PM


DimmuJesus- Unless you have a long pistol barrel (5+ inches) 95 percent of .22LR loads wont get over subsonic speeds. The
.45 is actually pretty hard to supress, despite its slow velocities (about 830 FPS with standard pressure FMJ loads). Theres
many more times as much powder in the .45, so unless you make your supressor pretty large, it wont be near as quiet as a
.22.

xyz January 8th, 2004, 09:12 PM


Shadowalchemist, How come you now say you don't own a firearm yet in the armoured car thread you posted this?

I myself have setup a business which 'says' i professionally exterminate wild pigs and pests etc, Which means i have now
obtained my class D&H firearm licence....mwuhahaha
It also means i now own several semi-auto centrefire rfles, selfloading shotguns and many many semi pistols.Every democracy
has its loopholes

One of those two statements is obviously bullshit so you are either trying to be cool by saying you have lots of guns, or you
are being lazy and saying you don't have any so that someone else will test the silencer.

DimmuJesus January 9th, 2004, 08:26 AM


Nick-I had never actually heard that about .22 amuntion and 5+ inch barrels. I had always thought that standard .22
amunition was always supersonic. But hey, you learn something new everyday. However, quite a few .22 pistols do have 5 inch
or greater barrels. Especially since so many are made as target pistols. In my experience I've seen more long than short
(probably why I didn't notice the subsonic rule you pointed out). The .22 pistol I own (Walther P22) is only 3.5 inches, but
even it can be bought as or converted to a 5 inch barrel.

Granted the .45 is harder to suppress than the .22, but it still can be done pretty effectively. I believe it is a granted that the
suppressor will be pretty large, for it is a larger caliber gun with a larger frame. I'm going to post a link to a video clip of a
Walther P22 with a suppressor and an HK USP Tactical .45 with a suppressor. Both are being fired, and the .45 isn't a whole lot
louder than the .22. Also the suppressor on the .45 isn't really all that big, at least in my opinion.

http://www.subguns.com/ATAS/movies/ATAS45small.mpg
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ShadowAlchemist January 9th, 2004, 09:00 AM


Hehehe it seems someone has caught on to my deceitful behaviour.
Xyz, what leads you to believe that only one of those statements is bullshit?
I realize they contradict eachother, but if you were looking at it from my point of view, would that be a good thing...or a bad
thing? To answer that question you will need to understand what i have to gain from running my mouth about the guns, or
what i stand to lose?
Tis an interesting scenario which was created from un-orthadox behaviour & therefore the subject had to be put to sleep upon
re-entry. ;) Dont be mislead, I am merely thinking of the bigger picture :)

DimmuJesus January 9th, 2004, 10:06 AM


What exactly is that supposed to mean? What could you possibly have to gain by not being truthful to a group of people
you've never met, nor will you possibly ever meet? I think more importantly, what does this forum have to gain from all of
this? Or is this just your humorous way of saying "I'm busted, you got me, I'm blushing with embarassment?"

NickSG January 9th, 2004, 05:27 PM


From a 3 inch barrel, my .22LR loads gets about 950 FPS, 100 FPS less with a 2 inch barrel. From a 4 inch barrel, it gets just
over 1000 FPS, and from a 6 1/2 inch barrel it gets just over 1100. BTW the ammo used was Federals Lighting RNL
ammunition.

Chemical_burn January 31st, 2004, 01:52 AM


Anthony- I have given it a lot of thought and I am thinking of moding my .22cal air rifle to fire .22cal blanks which I will use to
push 15gr airrifle pellets or possibly even fireing .22 shorts or even .22LR's but not sure if the chamber will take the pressure
repeadily.

Does anyone have any information on the amount of pressure a .22cal breach is rated at or the adverage pressure created
buy a .22cal short,LR,and Mag.

Also does anyone have any information on converting a .22cal air rifle to a .22cal rifle.

Mines a breach load single shot non repeating rifle that is spring powered.

Im going to add a fireing pin slightly off center of the breach so it comes in contact with the rim of a .22cal round. So if anyone
has any information it would greatly be appriciated.

charger January 31st, 2004, 02:23 PM


I wouldn't try firing 22 rimfire ammo out of an airgun barrel. The barrel's diameter is 0.217- to 0.218-inch whereas a rimfire
barrel is 0.222- to 0.223-inch, not much difference, but i wouldnt want to try. I got the numbers from http://www.airgun1.com/
articles/the_22_cal.html just in case you wanted to read more on this

Ansgar January 31st, 2004, 04:01 PM


Chemical_burn

What you can do is carefully take off a projectile from a .22 round without deforming it too much. Then you insert the projectile
into the air-rifle barrel and push it trough with a cleanning rod.
I did just that with a Diana (German) air-rifle barrel. It was tight in the beginning but when the lead had forged into the rifling
the rest of the passage was very smooth. I examined the projectile closelty afterwards and found that the rifling had made
very well defined sharp markings and that the maximum diameter outside the projectile was slightly smaller than an unfired
projectile. Thus the entire projectile has been deformed a bit.

After that I made a chamber with a 1:50 honing tool just deep enough that it would accept the entire cartridge and testfired it
a few times. - Again examining both the barrel and the projectiles.
It worked just fine and since then I have fired litterally hundreds of shots of subsonics as well as high velocities. No problems
at all.

By the way - I think the max pressure in .22 weapons is rated to about 1800 bars but I'm not sure.

Take care

MP5Guy February 1st, 2004, 01:42 AM


Remember these 2 words SLOW And COOL... That is it and ALL you are trying to do. Each time you redirect the expanding
gases through one more cycle of this the more efficient your suppressor will be.

PVC,Duct Tape,Glue,Cardboard,Fluffy Insulation,Toilet Paper?? Maybe for Barbie's Playhouse...

Lamar And Stick obviously know what a Suppressor has to be constructed of to be both efficient and durable. A pillow is more
effective than any of the Junk Drawer Devices I've heard discussed here to date.

Read, get a book on suppressor design,learn how to use basic hand tools before you shoot off your mouth in a Public Forum
and inform even the most casual observer that you know nothing about the construction of an effective suppressor or even the
mere principals involved...

And by the way the 60 Gr Aguila SSS .22 RF Round will NOT stabilize using Std .22LR barrel twist rate thus making it even more
prone to baffel strikes. Don't Put Your Eye out.

NickSG February 1st, 2004, 01:52 AM


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The 60 grainers dont stabilize well, but they do not tumble. At 25 yards, the groups are less than 1 inch larger.

They work well on the local yotes, and probably as well on humans. They give deep penitration as well as tumbling (in flesh).
The only drawback to this ammo is its price and availabilty.

ossassin February 1st, 2004, 02:03 AM


Mp5 Guy, many of us have very limited resources. I don't exactly have a machine shop, you know. Is there a feasible way to
make a durable supressor without one? I haven't heard one mentioned...

Chemical_burn February 1st, 2004, 12:00 PM


Thanks for the link charger. What would you recomend on trying the blanks to achieve high FPS. Its not that I cant get a
secent .22cal rifle its just that I have some wierd fasination with converting this .22cal airrifle to one :)

Ohh well if all else fails I will just rebuild the seals in it and possibly replace the main spring with a stronger.

charger February 1st, 2004, 02:08 PM


The only pellet gun I have ever owned had a very strong barrel that would probably withstand pressure from a 22 blank from a
starter pistol, but I wouldn't recomend trying to use ramset blanks. But this would depend heavily on the quality of the gun in
general. if the gun feals cheap overall (in handling, loose pieces, etc) I would not even try a blank. But then again I am a
strong believer on the better safe than sorry rule.

MP5Guy February 1st, 2004, 02:36 PM


Surely a Quality Hacksaw is in the relm of every man as are Files and Squares. Flea Market if your really on a tight budget.
And while there one might want to look for a very modest Hand Tap Set.... Time and a will to learn are free and cost less than
a roll of Wet Toilet Paper.

The Industry Standard for .22 RF Rifling is 1:16 for a 35-40 Gr. Projectile. To stabilize a 60 Gr. Projectile you are going to need
a Twist Rate of 1:8 to 1:9.5. With the Std 1:16 Twist Rate accuracy is going to run past 2-4" Grouping at 50 Yds IF the rifling
was cut with a Sharp Broach or Button. If it was done with a Dull Broach or Button expect this grouping to open up another 1-
1.5".

In a 1:16 Twist Rate the projectile has almost completed 1 revolution before leaving the barrel. Notice I said Almost because
the chamber has stolen almost 1" in chamber length of the overall 16" in length.

Now cut the same 1:16 Twist Rate Barrel down to 2" which means that it is lucky to see 1/16 revolution with rifling cut with a
sharp tool.

It does not take a Phd to see that Stabilization will unlikely be imparted to the fired projectile and it Definately will KEYHOLE at
25Yds. With this said what do you think the chances are of a Baffle Strike in an Intergal Suppressed Ruger MKll with 2" of
effective barrel and the series of pressure differentials it goes through before leaving the end of the suppressor???

You Be The Judge I Be The One That Has Seen It.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/092822.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/092821.jpg

NickSG February 1st, 2004, 05:14 PM


Ok, but I never fired them out of a 2 inch barrel. They were from the 19 inch barrel of my Marlin 60. Sorry if I didnt point that
out.

Anyway, out of a 2 inch barrel, you can use any load you want, since they will all be subsonic. Ill stick with the 19 inch barrel in
any situation however.

ossassin February 1st, 2004, 06:55 PM


I'm not sure if MP5 Guy's mention of a hacksaw was in reply to what I said or not. Is it possible to make a durable silencer
without heavy equipment? (i.e. a machine shop) We've talked about lots of ideas using PVC, cardboard, etc. etc. It sounds
like all of the metal ones require speciality tools, though.

PHAID February 1st, 2004, 07:14 PM


Yes it is possible to make a durable silencer without a machine shop.

What you have to consider is the caliber you want to silence.


The weapon you plan to mount it to.
Also the amount you need it to silence the weapon.
And lastly how long do you need it to last.

The larger the caliber the harder it is to make and it also gets much bigger.

For your standard .22 weapons they are easy and cheap to make with simple hand tools.

MP5Guy February 2nd, 2004, 01:14 AM


Here is a given example of some NO Machine Inards that my Cat could cobble out along with some sites you might want to
research. None of which sell Duct Tape,Toilet Paper and the likes...

http://www.onlinemetals.com/
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http://www.doall.com/

http://www.engineersedge.com/

http://www.hillmans.nu/

:eek: Easy Project For Any Cat With Access To A C Cell MagLite...

http://www.hunt101.com/img/072069.jpg

Beethoven_1983 February 2nd, 2004, 04:09 AM


Excuse my ignorance...But could the noise from a 50.cal precharged pneumatic airrifle be silenced? I mean, afterall, 12 bar
become a lot of air (In volume) outside the barrel,creating a loud "WHIZZ" kind of sound. One of the rifles at pyramydair.com
got a hybrid-barrel\crossed silencer and barrel...What are this doing to the velocity at the muzzle? I could imagine that the
velocity are being greatly reduced? And would the velocity in any airrifle exceed the speed of sound? (If you're not charging
your chamber with helium,or hydrogen,hehe...or another gas with lower density than air)

Omogen February 2nd, 2004, 07:15 PM


It seems like there are a big interest in silencers here so i was thinking about uploading the "homemade and improvised
silencers" video from aquilifer publications which was recommended by some forummeber here a while ago in a post.

Its aproximately 45 minutes and covers 3 different silencers and shows the results in various tests with dB levels etc.

So if there are some interests in this one i could up it. Gotta check since its around 250 megs and was mildely expressed: "a
pain in the ass" to download from the Overnet p2p software.

I also leeched some other aquilifer publications like the homemade firearms video for example which is almost as big as the
silencer video but is lesser of interests, atleast for me since they use pretty exotic equipment in that manual which i think
most of us havent got stacked up at home.

Anyways, Show your interests and Ill start uploading.

ossassin February 2nd, 2004, 09:40 PM


Beethoven, yes, you should be able to supress it, and, no, I've never heard of an air rifle breaking the sound barrier.

That video sounds great, Omogen! Too bad some of us were refused FTP access...

DimmuJesus February 3rd, 2004, 03:57 AM


You can get ahold of both of these files and others here:
http://www.varkoume.com/shared/index.php?usr=Aquilifer88
You will need eMule, eDonkey, or Overnet to download these through P2P. As Omogen said, it can sometimes be a pain to
download. I downloaded the silencer video, however, in less than a day.

zaibatsu February 3rd, 2004, 05:26 AM


Air rifles (mostly PCPs) can break the sound barrier, although they can be innaccurate at long range, I think this is due to the
supersonic wave hitting the pellets as the decelerate.

Ansgar February 3rd, 2004, 05:41 AM


zaibatsu -
Did you actually measure muzzlevelocities from an airrifle to exceed the speed of sound ?

Because I can't understand how a gas (in this case atmospheric air) should be able to move anything, including a pellet, faster
than it can move it's own shockwave. I can understand it when you have a continous supply of energy and thus heat like in a
jet engine or in a normal firearm. But when a gas is just expanding and moving itself, either by precompression or by a spring
piston - I can't imagine that it, nor anything it touches, can move faster than the speed of the shockwave (sound).

I myself have never measured any airrifle to exceed the speed of sound. But then again, I have not had access to any of the
modern larger airrifles.

Beethoven_1983 February 3rd, 2004, 06:02 AM


But would the 50.cal projectile be bounced off-course of the supersonic wave? I heard that the microscopic mass of the 4,5 mm
pellet would be accurate until the velocity lowers to sub-sonic. (A few meters) And thats because its no use with the standard
BB-caliber\4.5 mm in supersonic muzzle-velocities...But...would the same aerodynamics interfere with the 50.cal accuracy??
(The 50.cal pellets comes upto 275 grains in weight-4.5.mm comes in 0.9-12.0-13.0 grain, I'm not sure what this is in grams)

ossassin February 3rd, 2004, 10:08 AM


Thanks, Dimmu! There is some great stuff on that site! It looks familiar. Has it always been P2P?

DimmuJesus February 3rd, 2004, 01:49 PM


Yes, most of it has always been P2P. This is the same person who authored the White Resistance Manual. Alot of his stuff
keeps popping up on P2P and FTP servers. It's been awhile since I've seen anything new from him, and slowly one by one
sites hosting his content keep disappearing. Wonder what's going on...
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zaibatsu February 3rd, 2004, 02:28 PM


I read it in a report in an airgun magazine. I don't see how they could have got a high ft/lb with avergage weight pellets other
than a high muzzle velocity, breaking the sound barrier.

NickSG February 3rd, 2004, 05:20 PM


Its true that some air rifles can break the sound barrier, although im not familar with any in PCP. The PCP ones ive seen are
usually big bore, and are meant to push heavy bullets a lot slower than the lightweights. The spring piston ones are usually
the ones that break the sound barrier.

I used to own a Gamo that got 1250 FPS with 7 grain and under pellets. I cant remember what model it was, but I clearly
remember hearing the "crack" as I shot it off. The thing isnt fun to cock though.

Despite what some people say, the thing was actually pretty damn accurate. At 25 yards I could easily get groups less than 1
inch in diameter (5 shot), but out to around 50 yards the pellets were keyholing. It could still hold 3 inch groups at 50 yards
however.

As far as I know, none of the .50 caliber airguns can get supersonic, but I could be wrong. When they do, they are less
effected but changing to subsonic becuase of their heavy weight. .177 pellets, which usually weigh 7-12 grains (about 1/2
gram) arent as heavy and arent as stable when hit by the wave. This usually cuases them to tumble and keyhole.

Jacks Complete February 5th, 2004, 06:00 PM


All bullets are affected by the change in shockwave when transitioning through the sound barrier. Either start subsonic, or keep
it supersonic. There is no other way to be accurate!

As for how can an air rifle break the speed of sound? Simple.

The speed of sound is related to the temperature and presure of the air. The temperature and pressure of the air pushing the
pellet is higher than that surrounding the gun (gas temps rise as pressure goes up) so you can do it!

charger March 21st, 2004, 08:35 PM


I was looking around and came across adapters for shotguns at http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?
chrProductSKU=881160&chrSuperSKU=&MC= and i was wondering if the centre fire adapters could be used to make a silenced
firearms, using the shotgun barrel as a silencer tube and a specially made choke tube (reduced in size to a mm or so wider
than the bullet) as the endcap. With these in place, you now have a silencer tube about 20" long. You can then add internals if
they are needed, but the mere size of the tube should significantly reduce the sound.

zaibatsu March 21st, 2004, 08:54 PM


Interesting idea, but I have to question whether such a short "barrel" could stabilize the bullet sufficiently. Problems would
occur if it couldn't as it would hit the endplug, ripping it out.

charger March 21st, 2004, 09:23 PM


One could possibly make their own adapter like this, it shouldnt be too hard to do on a metal lathe, but make it a bit longer
maybe a 5 inch barrel and rifle it by inserting a barrel liner. I think that might stabilize it enough so theres no problems with
hitting the endcap

zaibatsu March 21st, 2004, 11:18 PM


Oh, of course, you could take a commercial prechambered barrel, cut say 6" off from the chamber side and turn to fit the
dimensions of a 12g cartridge. But I figured that might change the idea of a simple silencer. However, it would make criminal
investigations a little harder, as you could use the shotgun with "silencer" and pistol calibre insert, and throw them both away
after any activity, and there would be no permenant mods to the shotgun.

Bigfoot March 23rd, 2004, 04:04 PM


Charger, Zaibatsu:

Do it right, that trick will work better than you might think. In fact, I've seen such a setup using a flare pistol as the platform.
All components were off-the-shelf: flare pistol, flare adapter, 12 ga. to .22LR or 9mm adapter. Film can on the muzzle
completes the setup. Duct tape. Copper wool for the 9mm.
Those 12 ga adapters can be had in steel. The Numrich ones are aluminum.

One adapter was modified with a hacksaw.

SWIM made it according to PMJB vol 2., added to design.

Ropik April 23rd, 2004, 07:16 AM


I am just uploading Hayduke silencer book now. I have only parts 2 and 3, but all planes are in these parts and I can figure
out that none of us should be too sad without the chapter "Some neat thing that you can do with silencer" which was basically
wrote to explain you that you can turn off the pesky street lights with silenced .22 and without chapter "You last chance to be
legal" which explains how you can legalize your silencer.

Go on and happy (quiet) shooting!

I hope that you enjoy this book. ;)


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coolbig2 April 26th, 2004, 08:18 AM
Before anyone yells, I don't want to completely anilate it, it's not possible, I just want to reduce it.If anybody can help me with
this, email me at jrcooke117@hotmail.com THANKS!!

Spotter May 8th, 2004, 10:12 AM


I have build a Zip Gun that works with cal. 6 mm long blank and 4,4 mm Airgun Pellets. I also build a Silencer. I was very
suprised when i fired the First Time. a Lot of Power and very low Noise.
But i used good Tools and a Lathe.
If anyone will see some Pictures of this thing, will will make some and show them here.

Ahm, sorry for my Bad Englisch. i came from Germany.

MFG Spotter: Signing your posts is not permitted! NBK

john_smith May 10th, 2004, 07:59 AM


A theoretical question. Would a non-concentric (in fact, more like box-shaped) suppressor work? I'm thinking a small 22 auto,
with silencer body being flush with the top of the slide (so that sights can be used) but extending back and down all the way to
trigger guard, and maybe 2-3 inches forward of the guns muzzle. Basically the goal would be a concealable silenced pistol no
more bulky than a normal 9mm service auto.
One problem I can think of would be the different rate of gas bleedoff and pressure above/below the bullets path so it may
become destabilized or knocked off course, however, a longer ported barrel reaching almost to the end cap should solve it...I
think. Are there any other reasons why it wouldn't work?

Narkar May 10th, 2004, 06:02 PM


no need for it to be box-shaped. The mother of all silenced firearms - De Lisle carbine had an off-centre silencer. It looked
like ordinary but the barrel ran near the top end so the iron sights could have used.
It might be a problem when you just make baffles, but De Lisle had ported barrel instead, baffles outside, so the ported
barrel still held the bullet on its path. Baffles were outside of it.

Bigfoot May 11th, 2004, 01:41 AM


At least one of the old commercial Maxam designs was non-concentric. Probably for the same reason.

teshilo May 14th, 2004, 08:25 AM


Book Silencers: patterns and principles vol 2(Iupload it to forum ftp) contain nice info how silence you own full auto smg;
UZI,MAC etc... As disposable silencers and for reduce noise they used baffled bags, may be this simple canvas or plastic bags
inserted one in one.This bag may used as shell trap.

john_smith May 17th, 2004, 09:39 AM


One reason for it to be box-shaped was concealability. A round can, even if it sits lower, is still kinda bulky. I thought about
making it not (much) wider than the gun itself, with most of the silencers volume and bulk being under the barrel. Or more
exactly, a short, small diameter baffle assembly forward of the muzzle like it normally would be, and an initial expansion
chamber situated below the barrel.

OTOH, the Chinese Type 67 (www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Chinese67.PDF) pistol uses a cylindrical can and is pretty small
enough, so probably it could be done the normal way as well...

zaibatsu May 17th, 2004, 12:08 PM


Mounting a supressor on a pistol in the same way that the Chinese have done in this pistol (if I'm thinking of the same one)
is going to be tricky. I guess it depends on the type of .22 you were considering, but if I was making a pistol designed to be
concealable I would start with something like a .22 version of a PPK with the recoil spring being wrapped around the barrel or
underneath, this being in contrast to something like the Ruger .22 pistol which uses a bolt I think. The reason for this is that I
think although during the firing cycle a slide will extend outwards, increasing the length, but however when concealed will have
a smaller OAL. But, with a suppressor, you would encounter sealing problems IMO trying this method, also increased heat
transferred to the barrel, as I assume the supressor would be along the majority of the length of the barrel.

Therefore I think to keep the pistol small enough to be concealed, you would have to try to work on some sort of dual-recoil
spring method, like an AK. Otherwise you'd basically have a large .22 machine pistol.

mark151 May 19th, 2004, 09:33 PM


Hey guys. Haven't posted in a while since I missplaced my last account(regular mark.) Anyway, I've been looking online for a
while and found this hillarious little .22 deringer kit. Now, I have held off on buying the thing because
a) the thing is single shot
b) it has no saftey
c) I had no logical use for it(I own a 10/22)

But now, I've got to sceaming about slapping a silencer onto the little devil, and I was wondering what yall think. Is the pistol
just to ridiculous? Would it be possible to sillence such a dimunitive firearm? Would it even be effective? Is the thing just an
accident waiting to happen? And finally, could the barrel be lengthened?

http://www.gunsnstuff.net/FAC/002.asp

Thanks, Mark
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tiac03 May 20th, 2004, 12:59 AM
I have fired .22 subsonic shorts (CB's??). All I have to say is that although you can easily hear the delay between the gun
being fired and the lead hitting the target (really slow), the upside is that the actual firing makes almost no noise. (You
actually hear the pin hitting the cartrige). Makes less noise than my air rifle does. Would be perfect for city use....

Also I had a dream once where I went to Home depot and bought a few of the standard water pipe fittings. Then connected
the puetogether (since threads on them all connect nicely).

Tools used were pretty simple: a grinder, steel wool, and a thread making set)
luckily the .22 in the dream alrady had its barrel threaded on the end... so it was just a matter of finding the right threading
tool to connect the silencer on. (used many things in it to reduce the noise, like cardboard baffles, steel wool, "great stuff"
foam, smaller tube with holes in it etc.)

Now it did reduce the noise some what, and 1 shot was almost soundless. But there were also complete failures (big loss in
accuracy, absolutely no sound reduction). So all in all it was only slightly effective. And since I don't need to be quiet when
shooting, I sort of gave up on the project.

I'd post pics of the dream but should suffice to say that it looked like a pipe bomb but with a tube running down the middle, a
hole on either end, and one end threaded to fit threads on rifle. (overall size about 6 inches. diameter slightly larger than the
diameter of a 12 gauge shell).

Findings:
.22 not worth trying to silence especially since you have all the different types of ammo for them.

#93 August 20th, 2004, 01:33 PM


I own 3 silencers two .22 integral, these bleed off gas to keep regular ammo subsonic, and one 9mm screw on can. Some
general rules of thumb on silencers are

The more volume the more noise reduction.

For 2 cans with the same amount of volume a longer can with more baffles will be quieter.
Use of an ablative quiets most. Putting some oil. Shaving cream, KY jelly near the barrel end of the can absorbs some
sound. The silencer works by taking the heat, volume, & speed away from the gasses leaving the muzzle. When an ablative is
used the gasses evaporate it using a lot of energy depleting the amount of noise. (not on centerfire rifle caliber silencers)
Baffles that are cone shaped are more effective than flat ones. The point of the cone should point at the muzzle.

My .22 cans are about an inch in diameter and 8 inches long with baffles about an inch to 1.5 inches apart but these are
professionally made, efficient silencers larger for a home build would be recommended.

As already stated use subsonic bullets. The sonic crack is nearly as loud as a .22 rifle being fired.

This is my first post, I hope it is helpful.

#93

guerrero August 23rd, 2004, 01:22 AM


I think a very good gun to combinine with a selfmade silencer is the old russian (or belgian) 7 rd 7.62 Nagant revolver. During
WW II the german secret service used such models with very good results. It is a quiet cheap gun now. The cartridge is a low
pressure one and the bullet energy is comparable to the 32 auto. The advantage in comparison to a pistol is, that there does
not exist any noise of repeating and the cases arent ejected.

john_smith August 26th, 2004, 05:59 AM


The Nagants bullet energy is actually more comparable to 32 H&R Magnum (slightly below 300J). There's also a more modern
revolver using the same principle, TOZ - something (TOZ 34 I think, but not quite sure), in both 7.62 Nagant and 32 S&W, but
its probably not much better than the original Nagant.

raptor1956 August 28th, 2004, 07:36 PM


I heard a rumour once of a shotgun using a silencer made out of a "Franz" truck oil filter. They use 2 rolls of oil soaked toilet
paper as an element, so it would have been quite big & bulky, but it apparently cut the noise level by more than half. Anyway,
it's an idea worth experimenting with.

achmeinaugen November 11th, 2004, 07:08 PM


I just found this site from a recommendation from a friend. I have been very involved with firearms for more than ten years,
and can probably lend some insight to some of you.
First I must thank MP5guy for setting the twist rates for 22s correctly.
If you want a 22 can, that is going to be quiet, there are few things that you will need.
1. You will need your barrel threaded if you ever plan on taking it apart. Most of the attachemtn systems I have seem for
improvised cans are ineffective or else loosen up and blow off the gun. Superglueing and tube connectors (the adjustable
metal rings) leave large gaps for gas to escape.
2. You will need to make the endcaps and the sleeve of the suppressor. As stated endcaps are hard to make yourself, nad
you need to be very sly to get them made from a machine shop. In most home builds these are the weakness, take your
time in making them, and make sure that fit exactly into your sleeve. The sleeve is not a problem, as most peope can order
a tube of some inner and outer diameter to their preferance. For a 22, I would suggest a tube of at least 6", and if you want
to use aluminum, get 40xx with T6 heat treatment or better.
3. Your entire assembly needs to be able to withstand at the very least 5000psi over the exiting gas pressure of the cartridge
you intend to use
4. Baffles. A sleeve of the same diameter of your host barrel is going to degrade accuracy and only give you marginal
suppression. A person can make good baffles from the washers that are intended to be put in hole in engine block (freeze
washers?) They are available in 1/2" 3/4" etc. They arleady cone with a hole that is exactly centered, you only need to ream to
the correct size. In all suppressors, the baffles are marginally bigger than the projectile, but since this is a home build, I would
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recommend a hole at least .30" clearance between your suppressor and the center of the bore of the barrel. For centering this,
one can buy a metal rod that is just undersize for you barrel and stick it in your barrels while aligning, and if so desired, get
another shorter rod about 12" and the outer diameter of the interior of you baffles, and use those as a guide. All that needs
to be done is to dremel or, if you have it, use a lathe to make them conical (about a 30 degrees or better pitch). depending
on the worksmanship, you will want between 7 and 10 of these in your suppressor. 22s do not require very elaborate baffles to
suppress effectively, like 9mm, 45, or rifle suppressors.
5. Attachemtn of the baffles to the suppressor tube. You will need at the bare minimum of a very good soldering iron, I
recommend a welder of some sort (just make sure your welder will work with the material of both metals you are welding ei. do
not use a MIG with aluminum). Yuo will want an expansion chamber of about 1" on a 22, you can decrease that if you want, I
really don't know what works best here. Then place the baffles in increasing intervals (the first one close the the secons, the
third a bit farther from the second, etc.)
There you go, you now have a very decent suppressor that has been tested. I am in IN, and paid the tax stamp to make one,
and it is good for about 25-29dB reduction. Different brands of ammo act differently with different suppressors, try different
loads to get the best of whatever you are looking for.

When i have the tiem again, I will type another post about rifle suppressors, and try to find a host for some pictures to make
what I have said more clear.

Jacks Complete January 10th, 2005, 07:28 PM


Raptor1956,
cutting the sound level by half is only a 3dB reduction, and you can do better than that with a condom over the muzzle!

achmeinaugen, you can weld aluminium, just clamp a thin bit of steel to either side, and take it easy, doing small spot-type
welds.

Man Down Under January 6th, 2008, 08:43 PM


Old thread, but the most relevant one to what I found. (I UTFSE. :))

The things I found most interesting was the use of lithium grease and .380 in a 9MM.

Formatting is original source: http://guns.connect.fi/rs/mxgraaf.html

vvvvvvvvvvvvv

Minireflex Sound Moderator is primarily a muffler of excessive noise; also known as "semi-silencer". Silencing effect is,
however, available in full extent just by use of subsonic cartridges. "Ballistic crack" or "whiplash noise" of bypassing bullet is
unavoidable evil, if flight velocity of bullet is as high as velocity of sound in air at ambient temperature (Actually must bullet
velocity be less than Mach 0.85, because development of flight noise will start along with transsonic velocity). See an image
about bullet flight noise for more information.

For extra silencing effect, Minireflex Moderators are strong enough to be used also as a "wet" suppressor, by applying about a
spoonfull of grease inside the moderator from its back and spreading it with a stick among the baffles and away from the
bullet path. Grease or liguid inside a sound moderator absorbs muzzle blast energy by its immediate vaporization. The effect
stays for 3 ... 20 shots after each refilling, depending on the properties of the absorbing substance. Ordinary lithium based
lubricating grease is one of the most easily available absorbers. See Alan C. Paulson's book Silencer History and Performance
for more details about wet suppressing techniques and noise absorbers. Caution! Do not over-fill the moderator, as it will raise
the inside pressure beyond a risk of suppressor damage!

Functioning of recoil action pistols is inherently sluggish or deficient, because of extra weight attached to recoiling barrel. A
great many pistols will eject and/or feed reliably no other loads, but those with extra heavy bullets (weight 9 g or more). A
makeshift trick is to obtain an extra recoil spring, and cut it short enough to reduce spring tension 20 to 25 per cent. This
method may, however, result in feed jams - especially when the magazine of the pistol is crammed till it's nominal capacity.
Shooting with reduced tension recoil spring and without Sound Moderator may curtail life of pistol, if powder charge of
cartridges (behind standard weight bullet) is not reduced along with spring tension (20 to 25 %). Use of heavy bullet and
reduced charge is the most advisable way to get reliable autoloading of the pistol, along with reduction of shooting noise.
Some brands of 9 x 19 mm Subsonic cartridges with heavy bullets are available factory loaded (f. ex. Lapua with 9.7 g CEPP
bullet), but any experienced handloader is able to develop and reload "subsonics". Cast bullets of lead alloy are excellent for
these loads. Recommended bullet weight is circa 9.5 g /146 grains. Bullets with round point are best, if reliable functioning of
pistol is of vital importance.

If automatic function is unnecessary, it is possible to get very good silencing effect by rather heretical use of 9 mm Browning
Short (.380 Auto; 9 x 17 mm) cartridges with 90 to 95 grains bullet, velocity ca. 265 m/s. Theoretically it is impossible to shoot
cartridges having 17 mm case length in 19 mm chamber, but in practice most 9 x 19 mm pistols are able to fire 9 mm shorts.
However, when cycling the slide manually the extractor hook of pistol will keep the cartridge in reach of firing pin. Feed from
magazine is also usually reliable, in spite of less length and diameter of cartridge. For target practising without disturbing the
neighbourhood, using 9 mm shorts is usually an economic way. Because the pistol does not "sow" spent cases all over, also
unnecessary littering of the surrounding is avoided.

vBulletin v3.7.2, Copyright 2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.


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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > single shot gun plans

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View Full Version : single shot gun plans

twinkle December 6th, 2001, 09:20 AM


Does someone have plans (drawings) for making a "simple" single shot pistol (without a magazine) ?

BoB- December 6th, 2001, 10:44 AM


If your going to make it a singleshot, why use a bullet at all?

Madog555 December 6th, 2001, 12:41 PM


this has been discussed before

------------------
"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

twinkle December 7th, 2001, 12:12 AM


it can be discussed before like you say( not as an insult) but can you then tell me where to find them ? I have never seen
plans of them .I do have some of my own but I always are interested in seeing new things if someone is interested in the one
I have let me know

nbk2000 December 7th, 2001, 02:00 AM


SEARCH OR DIE! http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon26.gif

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

twinkle December 7th, 2001, 02:33 AM


You seems to be very agressive NBK , but I only found addresses for automatic guns in which I am not realy interested ,
maybe I had to be more precise I was looking for break open barrel systems with or without a hammer and falling (rolling)
block systems like the Remington , Winchester and Stevens Sharps and so

HMTD Factory December 7th, 2001, 04:09 AM


Chill, people~

Yes there are excellent detailed drawings in the market but you will have to pay for them.
There are couple books in Brownells Catalog
(Brownells Catalog is a huge catalog for gun
parts and related stuff).

You can order them books straight from


Brownells website WWW.Brownells.com (http://WWW.Brownells.com)

In my 2001 catalog, on page 189 there are 6


single-shot rifle related books, one
dedicated to gun plans.

HMTD Factory December 7th, 2001, 04:21 AM


Well the Brownells site isn't as convenient
as I thought so I am giving you this map.

Ok, here's the walkthrough :

go to www.brownells.com (http://www.brownells.com)

click "product"

chose manufacturer "DEHASS BARRELS"

leave the "stock no." blank

click "search"

click "de HASS SINGLE SHOT BOOKS & MANUALS"

you will see four books, the second one says:

Mr. Single Shot's BOOK OF RIFLE PLANS - Frank and Mark de Haas. 83 pages. 8" x 11".

Softbound. Extremely detailed book filled with crisp, clear, cross-sectional drawings and step-by-step procedures for making
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four de Haas-designed single shot actions. Featured are two Chicopee actions, designed for small cartridges and as first-rifle
projects for the amateur gunsmith, plus Vault Lock Actions #1 and #2 which employ round breech blocks and many non-
traditional features.

twinkle December 7th, 2001, 04:40 AM


The book you describe is that of" Frank de Haas" (or Hass)? , I do have a book of this de Haas is is also soft covered but it is
from 1969 is that the same ?

FragmentedSanity December 7th, 2001, 06:02 AM


Lo all :)
Hey Twinkle I for one would be interested in the plan you have... I can probably dig up a few files as well - nothing spectacular
but enough to give you some ideas.
By the sound of things your after someting a little more technical than a zip gun (I dont blame you)
what sort of idea do you have in mind? derringer style, caliber? My preference is as always .22, Do you actually want to
machine it to look genuine - or do you want to use pipes and a better trigger system?
later all.
FS

twinkle December 7th, 2001, 07:01 AM


I like the .22 LR or WRM derringer style and I like to keep it simple and I am not a realy favourite of the zipgun while the
bullets are not "locked up " in those barrels although that can easely be solved when you have a zipgun like a pengun

HMTD Factory December 7th, 2001, 09:43 AM


I dunno if the book's the same as yours. But
if the number of pages(83p) coincides then
it could be the same. (It's Frank de Haas,
Brownells website spelt it wrong.)

If you have the book, is it good/useful?

Derringers eh? Break action is probably the


shortest action possible, barrel lock-up
mechanism has to be precise tho, or it will
give off-target accuracy and leak gas.

Anthony December 7th, 2001, 12:23 PM


Probably far simpler than you're thinking of, but here's something I knocked up in an afternoon from a 5/8" nut and bolt and
a few scraps of 15mm copper pipe:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/22.html

Everything sanded and epoxied together, the thing holding the firing pin is a piece of threaded section of the bolt. The firing
pin is a nail ground to a blade tip and is held in by a collar, which is a small drilled out nut. The hammer is a short length of
brass rod drilled and threaded onto the eye-bolt.

The thing is pretty rusted/green/manky now having spent a while outdoors.

Edit: typos

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 12-12-2001).]

twinkle December 7th, 2001, 03:23 PM


indeed very nice , simpel ,effective and fast to make with common materials

jin December 7th, 2001, 05:03 PM


has anybody read the appeal for p.a lutty author of expedient firearms.

www.jpfo.org/alert11.htm (http://www.jpfo.org/alert11.htm)

Bitter December 8th, 2001, 03:10 AM


Is Jack Straw* still the home secretary ? I thought he'd been replaced with David Blunket**.

*His son is a coke dealer and his brother is a convicted peadophile.

**He's blind, but then again, aren't they all ?

------------------
"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."

J December 8th, 2001, 04:00 AM


"Unfortunately, the photographer did not sympathize with Philip's cause, and informed the police of the whole operation."

I always wondered how he got caught.


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Full story on Straws brother:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_916000/916179.stm

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Bitter December 11th, 2001, 08:54 AM


Moral of the story : Do it yourself.

------------------
"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."

HMTD Factory December 12th, 2001, 02:18 PM


Or : Don't **** around in England.

Agent Blak December 12th, 2001, 03:03 PM


If I were inclinded to make a gun it would be as follows;
barrel length: 4" or 10cm
-Diameter: 1/2" or 1.25cm
-Material: drill rod
-bore: Smoth; drilled with 15/64" bit
Caliber: .22 for a power hammer
Projectile: made from plumbing solder
trig.mech: similiar to what is used in a cap gun.

single shot is not hard to build. Use you grey matter...

nbk2000 December 12th, 2001, 10:55 PM


RTPB #1, Trust No One!

Especially photographers you don't know to take pictures of you making guns in a country so fanatically anti-gun.

That's the british equivalent of an American hiring some photographer out of the phone book to take pictures of you making
meth in a lab. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

The guy was obviously a DIY kind of person, why couldn't he take his own fucking pictures?!

That's why I bought a digital camera, no need for developing and the attendant risk of exposure.

Manky? Is that similiar to Skanky (dirty, unclean)?

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

twinkle December 13th, 2001, 01:35 AM


Agent Blak when you are meaning blanks for using a power hammer like a Hilti hammer then when you would use the black
ones (for using with metal ) then a 1/2 " thick barrel would be tricky these are very powerfull cartridges , yelow would be okay
and I do have some drawings of .22 cal but there are always simpler ways to make things like Anthony showed which could be
of interest when making one .

Anthony December 13th, 2001, 03:56 AM


"manky" Adj. Scruffy, dirty, distasteful, disgusting.

As shown in http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/ - large dictionary of UK slang and colloquialismshttp://theforum.virtualave.net/


ubb/smilies/smile.gif

It was really dumb of Lutty to hire a photographer. Maybe he wanted a way to make the trail lead back to him and he thought
he'd win if the case went to court (lot's of publicity) and he'd have made his point. Hell of a gamble if he did.

Arkangel December 17th, 2001, 11:16 AM


Hard to believe he would trust a stranger for something like this, maybe it was the same photographer that did his wedding
pictures and he got like a discounted rate for both jobs.

Anyway Anthony, interesting to see your little single shot. Easy to break down and conceal. I'm assuming you tested it it, and
wonder what sort of accuaracy you achieved. Also, with this type of device I'd be worried about barrel life, any thoughts on how
many rounds you'd be happy to put through it?

.22 is a lot easier to get hold of in the UK than any centrefire stuff, and a machinegun based around that would be interesting.
I saw somewhere a working scale model of a vickers gun that used beltfed .22LR in a cloth belt.
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Of course with a single shot .22 you run the risk of simply irritating the target, so maybe something a little bigger would be
better. The US Army "improvised warfare devices and techniques" handbook has some interesting stuff in it, especially
vietcong weapons. In a dream, now let me see, erm yes, nineteen years ago, I built what was intended as a reloadable
thunderflash/grenade simulator for FIBUA training. It fired the 12 guage blackpowder blanks that are used by gamekeeper
tripwires. It was lathe built from two pieces of steel, had a locking breech and central firing pin with a safety pin slot and trigger
made from a bit of old hacksaw. It worked a treat, but it hadn't really occurred to me that with a shotgun shell it was a heavy
duty zip gun and some very angry and not at all understanding people removed it from me a couple of years later http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif However, if I had anything like this in mind for real, I'd sure as hell prefer a 12
guage or maybe even .410 to a short barrell .22 :D

------------------
It's easier to get forgiveness than permission

SawedOff8gaugeman December 17th, 2001, 12:46 PM


Similar devices usually stay in usable condition for at least a few hundred rounds(=enough), VERY shoddy guns a few dozen
rounds(=enough).

nbk2000 December 17th, 2001, 02:53 PM


A gatling gun isn't a complicated mechanism. Much easier to build than a vickers or maxim.

Add an electric motor, neglegible recoil, several thousand rounds per minute, and you've got a .22 man reaping scyth!

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

twinkle December 17th, 2001, 03:27 PM


cal .410 is not a good choice as making a "zip" gun of it ,the pressure build up by this shells is very high so you need very
good quality steel as a barrel and precise working then you better keep it by the 12 gauge shell ,there was said that a .22 is
not realy a thread but looking into the barrel of a gun is never a nice idea (believe me )even of a .22lr

Anthony December 17th, 2001, 03:54 PM


I did indeed test (play) with it. Accuracy: N/Ahttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I drilled the barrel with a
cordless hand drill so it wasn't very straight (about 2mm off centre at the muzzle).

Considering that the walls of the barrel are as thick as the bore, I'd put no limit on number of rounds to fire. Although parts of
the firing mechanism may fall apart after heavy use. Catastrophic failure would be very unlikely.

I really didn't make it for any purpose, just to see how easy it would be.

I'm interested in what happened over you being caught with the 12bore zip, that's if the police were involved?

A .22 gattling would be great! Imagine the amount of ammo you could carry... A .22 isn't a nasty round but 10 in a small area
should do the job!

Arkangel December 17th, 2001, 05:37 PM


.22 gatling gun! :D What a concept, even a cubscout could play at being arnie, and you sure could carry a packet of ammo.

As I mentioned, I'd dreamt of building my 12 guage device (never intended as a zip, just a reloadable grenade for training
purposes - 12 guage bp blanks $0.10 each - Thunderflashes $5.0 each) whilst in a cadet unit. Ended up taking it with me to
the hooaah's and made the mistake of leaving it somewhere stupid. Was doing the responsible thing I thought by letting my
boss know, but the shit hit the fan and I met a bunch of very unfriendly military piggies. I'm convinced the fuckers are still
playing with it somewhere - hope one of 'em lost an appendage.

I take the point about higher pressure of something like a .410, (did you also mean that a .410 would be higher pressure
than a 12 guage?) but since we're talking about a barrel of less than 5 inches, will it ever reach the peak pressure that the
load can produce. I don't see that a .410 zip would be substantially harder to build or conceal than a .22, I'd have thought
that a bigger problem would be dealing with the recoil from an essentially ergonomically fucked device. When all said and
done, something like this would be far more effective with a buckshot round than a single .22 projectile. Read "Blackhawk
Down" about the US debacle in Somalia if you want and advert for higher calibre or expanding ammunition.

Whatever the barrel, I never want to look down it Twinkle, you're right!!!!!

------------------
It's easier to get forgiveness than permission

Arkangel December 17th, 2001, 05:42 PM


Just to clarify Anthony, it never made it to the civ police, or even formal military. No, I simply became the single most popular
guy on the unit overnight by picking up every shitty duty going for the next decade.

------------------
It's easier to get forgiveness than permission

stiler December 17th, 2001, 06:06 PM


.22 gatling blueprints are avail from a web site i looked at a while back. after some correspondence with the owner of the site
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and some samples of his work he seemed to know his stuff and have good products. it is going way past "zip gun" stage but
is great reading material. the pics already posted look simple and affective to me for a quicky purpose, but if anyone wants
the url for gatling (and many others) let me know and i can dig it up again http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif as for easy barrels i found a scrap bin at a machinist which had offcuts of 4140 in varied dia/length which had great
cone shape centres cut in a few mm depth from the lathe, they made drilling 5.5 holes easy and dead straight. i havent
looked very far but i wouldnt mind finding a set of drawings for a single shot pistol which was used during ww2 by the
resistance in Europe called "the welrod" chambered in 7.65 it broke down into 2 sections and would be concealed in ones sock
with a 12"silencer integral to barrel and was apparently much better than the model before which holds the record of being the
only gun in history that took longer to load than to manufacture! the idea was to make a piece of shit that you would only pick
up if you didnt have a "real gun" but could kill an enemy with it and then take his. go figure

FragmentedSanity December 18th, 2001, 07:59 AM


Lo all :)

it sounds like your talking about the "liberator" pistol - a personal favorite. the entire conept appeals to me. And they were of
such a simple design that they can be easily improvised. Miind you Id like some detailed pics of the welrod too - they always
just looked mean.

As for the debate over caliber preferances - I personally wouldnt bother with the .410 when a 12 guage would be more
effective in an improvised piece. A .45 (ala the liberator) would of course be nice as it will make more noise (shock and fear
can be your friend) and put bigger holes in peop... I mean tin cans.
But I still hold with the theory that if you cant kill something with a .22 you shouldnt be shooting at it. .22 bullets are cheap
and easy to get, and if you want more stopping power from it flatten the tip and expand the hollow point - most impro pieces
have shitty accuracy anyway. But better than that is that if you can make a piece with one barrel its not much harder at all to
make one with a cluster of them that all fire at once or with the option of a second burst.
in reality an impro pistol is only any good to about 10-20 feet anyway and 5 or 10 .22 at that range is going to ruin anyones
day.
personally I think the best config is two groups of three clustered barrels arranged so that each group has a seperate
hammer. giving you a followup shot if need be, and the likleyhood of getting a dud bullet in each barrel is minimal.

enough of that tho - Im drooliong at the idea of .22 gatling shematics - so any info would be greatly appreciated.

later all
FS

stiler December 18th, 2001, 10:05 AM


ok FragmentedSanity the url and for anyone else it took a quick search to find it again "new hard drive no bookmarks again
blah blah" but ask and ye shall receive. http://www.jkcruise.com/index.html
like i said in my prev post we shared a few emails and i formed a personal opinion that the bloke was quite talented and a
very helpfull individual http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/cool.gif he answered my questions and sent samples of pro
cad re-draws IIRC drafted when available from original military blueprints. why am i so happy to promote his site? (feel free to
send me commish MR cruise http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif lol when i've never spent a penny buying
his seemingly excellent work? long story but in a nut shell i was impressed enough to order and post off for several models,
and felt pretty scammed when the mail came back address unknown ATT!!(NO MONEY WAS CHARGED)!! the cheque came back
as was sent. bummer no prints ill ask later what the prob was, weeks end up going by yada yada. well it was totally my screw
up i own a small business and run envelopes through the printer with our logos/details etc and guess which wally copy pasted a
completely irrelevant piece of info for the address? you guessed it "mwa" i can assume it just went with normal outgoing garb
un noticed. that was almost this time last year im hoping to get back around to it one day soon http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif he prob wouldnt remember me or the missing order by now but who knows? ok
now to find the welrod
cheers

stiler December 18th, 2001, 10:50 AM


the welrod i personally would not say falls into the bracket of being an "improvised weapon" for obvious reasons. also i was
happy to find more info about it and some better pics than i have in a couple of books. well have a squiz for yourself http://
www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Single-Shot-Pistols/Welrod.htm
well thats the good news, the bad news is it is still a clasified weapon so it may be hard to find much in the way of "usable
specs" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif but hey if i was looking for a single shot home made weapon which
is somewhat tried and tested this is the one that would really get my brain itching!http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif ok class for todays task lets reinvent the wheel and see who can come up with the best set of drawings after reverse
enginering the welrod from current info. best set of plans gets a cookie

zaibatsu December 18th, 2001, 02:44 PM


I found this link http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/the22.html by using the name the pistol (welrod) is given in one of my
books "Rifles and pistols" and it is called the Wellrod, in here is says it was produced in .32, 7.65mm as well as 9mm, and it
was a bolt action single shot. However, from the above link I found this:

The only offensive use of the .22 rimfire, in a military roll, is in the silenced pistol. These pistols, beginning with the splendid
Wellrod, of the Second World War, can be remarkably quiet. The Wellrod was a single shot pistol, with a silencer integrated
into the barrel. The Wellrods were primarily for special operations, and tended to be used for assassination, or for sentry
removal.

I guess (from the pictures) that you pull back the knob at the back of the gun to cock it, and this also ejects a spent cartridge,
like if you cycled a semi auto by hand (I think, I've never done this before). Someone (sorry, can't remember who) designed
a single shot shotgun that operated on pulling a knob at the back, maybe you could look at this, and go on from there. Oh,
and it was supposedly manufactured by Welwyn Garden.

Oh, just doing a little search while I did this

Again, all officers were introduced to and given practical training in such as the Welrod (a silent pistol firing 7.65mm
ammunition, but of such puny velocity that its only value lay in killing at extremely close range)

Taken from this page http://freespace.virgin.net/arthur.brown2/short%20history.htm


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I hope this helps you to find out some details (note: on this webpage it calls it the welrod pistol, not the wellrod, confusing eh?
)

Some more pages you may find slightly useful


http://www.geocities.com/~cthulhu_666/wodequip1.html (A welrod pistol in .45?)
http://www.rennet.org/cyber/polar/liste.htm
http://www.wingevapen.no/vapkjop.htm

Basically follow this link to find loads of links to sites, not sure how much is just info rechurned.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=welrod

------------------
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Charlie Workman December 20th, 2001, 03:48 AM


The welord was only produced in 2 calibers- .32acp and 9mm para. The .45 gun never existed (as far as anyone has been
able to find out). Each was a different gun, though they operated in the same manner. Both were simple bolt action repeaters.
I was never fond of the 9mm, too long and ungainly, but the .32 was sweet. I've often thought a good modern(?)day
replacement would be a silenced nagant revolver. Heavier bullet, higher velocity, and faster rate of fire. Only the captive piston
guns would have it beat, at least in the concealablity department.

Arkangel December 20th, 2001, 09:10 AM


Just had a look at a Nagant on the web and the seal sounds useful. I used to have an 8 round .22 snub nose revolver (sorry
about deviating from the thread a little here) that used to just piss the gas out the sides, and I'm curious how the nagant
seals effectively. (I was most annoyed because it wouldn't ignite the .22 tracer I'd bought)

It would be interesting to know how much forensic residue would be left on your hand (glove) by a nagant.

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It's easier to get forgiveness than permission

HMTD Factory December 20th, 2001, 01:25 PM


The Nagant revolver seals gas with special setup in the cylinder and cartridge.

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/nagrev.htm

nbk2000 December 21st, 2001, 01:33 AM


I was in the grocery store earlier today and saw this "gun" that had plastic cartridges that shoot out confetti or ribbons.

I copied the patent number (5423265) and checked it out at the USPTO site. It's a plastic shell with a nipple in the center,
over which is placed a red plastic percussion cap of the kind used in cap guns.

Well, this naturally brought to mind what I've read about the original gatling gun which used an exactly similar arrangement.

Anyways, these things are perfect ready made shells for loading with a powder charge and bullet. It's a .30 caliber size (didn't
get to measure it) and looks like a 1/4" steel slingshot ammo bearing would fit perfectly. The shell, if loaded with a plastic or
glass bullet, would pass through a metal detector easily.

The "gun" it's made for is useless for adaptation.

The cost was 10 shells for $1.50. Look for them! They probably won't be around long because some kid (maybe someone
here?) will turn these into weapons and get them recalled.

Anyways, I also thought that (listen to this anthony) that by adding a little extra propellant, you could replace the confetti with
tear gas powder to shoot someone in the face with it.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

Anthony December 21st, 2001, 10:54 AM


Duly noted, I'll keep an eye out for them.

J December 21st, 2001, 11:33 AM


I used to have one of these. More fun than party poppers!

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MacCleod December 22nd, 2001, 09:54 PM


They sell those at Phantom fireworks stores also.
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vehemt December 23rd, 2001, 02:46 AM


Used to shoot glass marbles out of those.

A single toy cap was able to lob a marble rather far.

twinkle December 23rd, 2001, 05:25 AM


NBK you said you looked up the patent number,
I know that there are very nice patents of single shot falling actions like this number
http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US06233860__first it was free and I have downloaded several nice things but nowadays it
is not free anymore and you have to pay so can you tell me how you look these things up ?

falling block actions are nice they are very strong and are easier to make then a bolt action gun .

(Go to http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-bool.html NBK2000)

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited December 23, 2001).]
thank nbk2000 I see the pages now but how do I save them ? it don't work when I click the right mouse button

[This message has been edited by twinkle (edited December 23, 2001).]

zaibatsu December 23rd, 2001, 06:45 AM


Anthony, here a link to a site that sells the confetti gun, it may be interesting to buy one... Here's the confetti gun (http://
www.confetti.co.uk/shopping/newshop/productview.asp?cat=94&id=W70017&Start=4) its 4, and reloads are 1 for ten, the gun
already comes with 15.

------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)

[This message has been edited by zaibatsu (edited December 23, 2001).]

vehemt December 23rd, 2001, 03:11 PM


Thats the same confetti gun I used to play with, they cost 1$CDN with 2 or 3 shells and an additional pack of 10 shells cost
1$CDN.

Madog555 December 23rd, 2001, 04:06 PM


<a href="http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-
adv.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&S1=6233860.WKU.&OS=PN/6233860&RS=PN/6233860">here</a> is the patent for the single
shot falling action

------------------
"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

Anthony December 23rd, 2001, 04:19 PM


Thanks for the link Zaibatsu:)

twinkle December 23rd, 2001, 04:32 PM


here are some other gun patents but you must look to them with the address NBK2000 gave
http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05095643__
http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn10=US04268987
http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn=US04644930__
http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05105569__
http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn=US05782025__
http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05659992__
http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn10=US04424638
http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04709617__

nbk2000 December 25th, 2001, 04:24 AM


Be careful where you point the gun at or you could end up like this guy.

http://www.lambobuilder.com/noguns.html

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

Bitter December 25th, 2001, 03:01 PM


Picking up a loaded shotgun by the trigger is never a particularly good idea, let alone leaving it loaded in the first place. What
an idiot.

------------------
"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."
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Riot December 25th, 2001, 03:28 PM


All this talk about building guns, no offence if u are building them as a hobby or its fun but i would just buy one.
I got a friend in zim who could get me a shotgun for about 1/3 pound 1/2 dollor.
And as for getting it accross the border, i smuggled a bbgun shotgun accross last time i went.

Anthony December 25th, 2001, 06:54 PM


0.50 for a shotgun? Are dealers doing that as a special offer when you buy half a pound of crack now?

"i smuggled a bbgun shotgun" - woah! You could have run the risk of that getting confiscated!

nbk2000 December 25th, 2001, 07:48 PM


"BB shotgun"?

Is that the air-soft version?

I don't think border guards are looking for 13 year olds smuggling BB guns. Now if it was a kilo of heroin or a crate of AK-47s
you'd have something to brag about.

Though, if by "zim" you meant zimbabwe, then the assertion of a gun for a few bucks is believable. War-torn 3rd world
countries are often awash with more guns than money to buy food. In liberia you can buy an AK-47 for $10.

BTW, what's it like to live in a country full of niggers? That must really suck bigtime mangy cat scrotum.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

zaibatsu December 25th, 2001, 09:38 PM


I was reading in some paper that in a country in SA (maybe cambodia?) the military will let you use some of their weapons for
a price (grenades were $20, I can't remember the rest) and, if you want, you can fire at a large live target like a cow, for $300.
Imagine this conversation:

Friend One: What did you do on holiday? I went round a few ancient markets.

Friend Two: I blew up a cow.

Riot December 26th, 2001, 04:16 PM


Im not saying smuggling a bbgun shotgun is big but it could of been an ak-47 or a kilo of heroin, they wouldn't of found
either. U just drive straight through, no checking car or anything. And also ur right the gaurds arn't looking for a 15 year old
with an Ak-47 so it works to my advantage.

Cambodia is actually in Asia, my dad went there and u are allowed to shoot the armies guns. Cows i don't know

(Just for the record my country is F***ing SHIT!!!!!!! the kaffas (ka-fas) as we call them here are everyware u look and they all
f****ing stink. They drive shit cars blasting their shit music and genrally make South Africa "suck bigtime mangy cat
scrotum")

[This message has been edited by Riot (edited December 26, 2001).]

Bitter December 27th, 2001, 07:21 AM


Is Mugabe still in power in Rhodesia ? Has he given up killing white farmers yet ? I notice the UN had done fuck all about it so
far (had it been whites killing black farmers, the UN would have gone bezerk).

------------------
"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."

Riot January 7th, 2002, 04:36 AM


(sorry for taking long i've bin away)

Yep Mugabe is still in zim, he's still milking the country for all its worth. He has given up kiling the farmers, but now that most
of the farms have been taken over there are food shortages there and the counrty is now starving. My friend who lives there
says u can't even buy sugar anymore.

As for killing, it works the same here(SA). A black kills a white, no big deal it happens all the time. A white kills a black, it's all
in the newspapers, racist crime, hate crime, apartheid, all that shit.

Bitter January 8th, 2002, 05:30 PM


Yeah and no doubt when the famines start to get serious, the stupid UN will come running to the rescue (and Blair will probably
be with them) to prop up yet another communist dictatorship. I don't know; with all this UN silence over the Taliban's attack on
the US and over the events in Rhodesia, anyone would have thought that the UN was part of some communist plot to take
over the world...

But where would anyone get a silly idea like that ? :D


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Noct January 8th, 2002, 07:38 PM


Holy shit.

$10 for an AK-47

$0.50 for a shotgun

I never would have guessed the prices were that low! Even in countries like that!

Riot January 10th, 2002, 07:01 AM


Well me friend told me a story(a true one)

This guy goes to rob these old people, he has a gun(pistil). He is holding the people up. The old guy says can i buy the gun.
The robber says ok but nothing less than 40 dollars/+- R3.50/ $.35 US.
So when the old guy has the gun he holds the robber up and says piss off and calls the cops.

But the prices are probally even lower.

Also the people who sell flowers on the side of the road also sell drugs.(cheap as well)
U can get everything u need there :)

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Riot ]</p>

Xtramad March 15th, 2002, 01:13 PM


Thank God the forum is back!
Some questions went unanswered in this discussion which I feel I can shed a little light on.
First of all, the welrod is a bolt action pistol functioning in the same way as any single shot bolt action rifle, the knob at the
rear is twisted 90 degrees to unlock the two locking lugs, then pulled backwards to extract and eject the spent cartridge, the
small notch in the cocking knob is an index mark to show when the bolt is in closed position. When the bolt is pushed forward
the firing pin is cocked.
<a href="http://elek.osemka.p.lodz.pl/~robertog/graphics/welrod.jpg" target="_blank">Welrod pistol</a>
Second, THe Nagant revolver uses special cartridges where the bullet is seated flush with the mouth of the cartridge,<a
href="http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/4064/gunimages/M1895Nagant/M1895ManCart.jpg" target="_blank">Nagant
Cartridge</a>
when the hammer is cocked the cylinder moves forward to encase the rear end of the barrel and the cartridge case forms the
gas tight seal. <a href="http://www.kmike.com/KWjpg/nagrev1.jpg" target="_blank">Nagant revolver</a>

And one question: What excatly is a zip gun? The definition given in dictionaries seems quite lose and would cover just about
any homemade pistol in any caliber, size and form.

FragmentedSanity March 16th, 2002, 10:30 AM


mmm Welrods...

but yeah - you got the right definition - a zip gun is basically any kind of homemade pistol - of varying calibers and shapes
and sizes, only slightly less sufficticated than a "saturday night special"
Zip Guns do seem to all follow the same basic design tho and characteristically use a blunted nail as a firing pin and a bent
piece of tin with some rubber bands attached as a hammer
the file from Phrack or temple of the screaming retards will give you a fair idea of what a zip gun is (and looking at where the
file comes from should tell you all you need to kow about the quality)

bUt I spse its still tru the in gun fight any gun is better than none (providing you gun doest blow up in your face) so if you
really cant come up with anything better then make a zip gun (genetic chlorine) >:)

Xtramad March 17th, 2002, 06:34 AM


I found the Phrack file and it told me more about the quality of the writer than the quality of the gun.
Making a zip gun to shoot rifle rounds just by epoxying together steel and copper pipes of the nearest possible size seems
like a suicide attempt. That text file is obviously written by someone who has no knowledge whatsoever of guns.
However, I just wanted to know if the 9mm I'm "Theoretically" making fits the definition.

tiac03 May 31st, 2004, 11:49 PM


Pre US invasion you used to be able to buy an AK for 30-50$ and grenades for 50 cents a piece. (from time magazine, before
the last afghan war.

As for the welrod, all i can say is I wish there were detailed diagrams to how it works out there. (this forum was my last hope of
finding info on it.)

Anders June 1st, 2004, 03:59 AM


Try looking at this site.
Some nice diagrams of the welrod.
http://www.timelapse.dk/Welrod/uk/

guerrero August 23rd, 2004, 02:26 AM


The recommendation to buy a weapon instead of fabricate a less efective one is good. I agree. If it is possible, well its fine.
But is it so easy in all parts of the world? And the other question is: If it is possible now, will it be possible Tomorow as well?
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Its better to know a strategy for situations without this possibility, isnt it?

Skean Dhu August 23rd, 2004, 06:23 PM


Well from what I've read its would seem that buyng an AK is easier than buying the plumbing parts to make some inaccurate
single shot zip gun. I think most of the people here are just making zip guns to prove to themselves that they can, or they
got tired of plinking at tin cans with their red ryder BB gun and wanted to step it up a notch

Hobbit Porn August 23rd, 2004, 10:24 PM


It might be easier to get an AK then assemble something else in someplaces.. however, places like Australia and England
especially, where there are very strict, tight-ass gun laws, the latter is probably more true.

but I agree with you when you say most people who make them just do so to prove to themselves they can. I know thats why
I do more then half the pointless shit I do :)

-H.Porn

raptor1956 August 24th, 2004, 06:25 PM


Luty does plans for a handy little .22 on his website. Also for a single shot 12g pistol

Third_Rail November 6th, 2004, 03:55 PM


Thanks Raptor, I didn't know that it had been updated in a long while.

Looks like I have even more things to do in machine shop. I love the fact that I can legally build semi-auto, single shot, etc.
rifles here in USA.

Third_Rail November 9th, 2004, 12:34 AM


My new single-shot pistol is coming along nicely, I should have pictures by Wednesday. I decided to do away with an external
hammer and instead go for an open bolt slamfire, since it's only .22lr.

So far I have a trigger, sear, the barrel, the receiver tube, the bolt, and the springs together. It's a matter of cutting a slot for
the trigger, for the bolt, and fitting things together.

I'll be posting pictures when I'm finished, whether that be on Wednesday or later.

goodwinone March 9th, 2008, 04:00 PM


Nice idea.
http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singleshotpistol22lric0.jpg

iHME March 11th, 2008, 12:46 PM


I originally thought that I could use a similar action in my pistol (still under construction, I need to get a second vice and some
inserts for it) but now I have opted to make it bolt action with a self-cocking hammer. Mayebe in the future I'll add a
magazine to it.

kaiserbill July 10th, 2008, 10:21 AM


Hi Guys

I know that this is a relative blast from the past, but since the forum was reorganised into the new various sub-themes, I've
decided to include the project described below. I basically wrote the information below originally to fellow forumite Killy as a PM,
but I hope it adequately describes my first attempt at gunsmithing. The end product was a perfectly servicable shotgun.
Although I do not have plans for it, it was a single shotgun design that was very easy to construct.

The shotgun was a single shot. It was quite basic. I shaped a wooden stock onto which I attached a pipe with a slot cut down
the middle which then turned 90degrees near the end (receiver). Into this I slid a standard water pipe (barrel) suitable for a
12 gauge shell. The fit was perfect.On either end of the barrel, as I cut it to the correct length, I left a small piece that I then
bent at a 90 degree angle to the barrel. This doubled as a basic front sight on one end, and a basic locking nib on the other
end. you loaded the shell into whatever end you chose, then pushed the barrel with the sight/lock all the way down the slot to
the end, then turned it 90 degrees to lock. the turning to lock moved the front sight from9 o'clock to the correct 12 o'clock
position.

I constructed a basic trigger mechanism from the various sources on the net. Once loaded, the hammer was pulled back until
cocked, then the trigger was pulled.

To reload, the reverse procedure was done, that is, the barrel turned 90 degrees, slid forward. You could even leave the
previous expended shotgun shell in the barrel and use the other side loaded with a fresh cartridge. So in effect, both ends of
the barrel were also chambers with their seperate sights/locking nib.
The firing of the following cartridge would easily expel the fired cartridge in the other side. Rates of fire with this methodology I
achieved were about 10 rounds a minute.

The above project is obviously primitive, but was designed to teach myself a few things. I put about 50 rounds through her
before destroying her. I should have a photo of her somewhere to send if I can find it. I chose a shotgun as I believe it is the
firearm most easily constructed due to low pressures, and ease of materiels use. I was intending then to manufature a break-
open double barrelled shotgun as a more advanced project, but recently have been looking at the Luty machine pistol designs
rather.
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shady mutha July 21st, 2008, 04:04 AM
If you have the round you should have no trouble making a basic gun.

I have made many a dodgy 12g. All you need is a pipe that fits the round and a hammer anything more is up to your
imagination.

What ever works is order of the day. Often I have plenty read plans for this and that, unable to aquire the exact parts I just
make my own version. Improvise the best you can.

Homemade guns are really rewarding to make and you never forget how, its like riding a bike.

amsci99 July 31st, 2008, 06:02 PM


Here's a link for the de hass book which was mentioned earlier in the thread.

http://www.zshare.net/download/1632135915987649/

amsci99 August 2nd, 2008, 06:06 PM


Received PM that link does not work. I have uploaded it to Rapidshare.
http://rapidshare.com/files/134395836/Fred_de_Hass.pdf.html

kaiserbill August 4th, 2008, 11:25 AM


Many thanks amsci99. That is certainly appreciated.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Got the .5 0 plans
from J o h n n y . 5 0

Log in
View Full Version : Got the .50 plans fromJohnny .50

Mr.50man2k2 D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 02:48 AM


I ordered the Plans for the .50 Caliber From the Johnny .50 guy, It m ight just work http://theforum .virtuala v e . n e t / u b b / s m ilies/
smile.gifI have all the Parts, all I am waiting on is the Barrel I ordered http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif , I
a m gonna start on it's constru ction soon as my barrel arrives http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/sm ile.gif. Nice project,
lots'o fun. Look for updates on my pro g r e s s , I m o p e n t o a n y s u g g e s t i o n s o r I d e a s a l l m a y h a v e .

------------------
" T h e D e a t h O f O ne Is a tragedy, the Death of a million is just a statistic" Stalin

nbk2000 D e c e m ber 25th, 2001, 07:50 PM


S c a n i n t h e p l a n s a n d p o s t t h e m for us here.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com /nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

RTC D e c e m ber 26th, 2001, 11:16 PM


I also would be intrested in these plans.

Ctrl_C D e c e m ber 27th, 2001, 09:02 PM


if yo u d o s c a n t h e m , u p l o a d t h e m to the Forum FTP

------------------
Long

Ass

Sig

shane May 29th, 2002, 04:17 AM


hey the fileis em pty can you please e-m ail m e the file on the big 50 at shaneprice@start.com.au

Mick May 29th, 2002, 11:38 AM


er...what file?

Spudkilla May 29th, 2002, 12:13 PM


S h a n e i s t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e F T P . O bviously he doesn't know that you now need an account to access anythin g. Mr.50m a n 2 k 2 ,
are the plans already a PDF? If not, you should m a k e t h e m .

Bitter May 29th, 2002, 01:48 PM


Didn't we given Mr.50m an2k2 HED ?

Spudkilla May 29th, 2002, 04:41 PM


Crap. I didn't relize this post was m a d e i n D e c e m b e r . S o m e people (SHANE!) shouldn't reply to top ics m a d e 5 m o n t h s a g o !

Azazel May 30th, 2002, 06:22 AM


LOO OOOL :mad:

zaibatsu May 30th, 2002, 02:53 PM


Topic Closed.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > barrel rifling

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View Full Version : barrel rifling

dharcast1 July 9th, 2001, 05:58 AM


I would greatly appreciate any ideas on how to rifle gun barrels as easily as possible at home.

deezs July 9th, 2001, 01:40 PM


If you have a barell, into which you could make rifling at home, it would surely explode! If there would be any easy method for this, you could find it on the net. If you need
rifled barell for your zip-gun, buy a disarmed gun, and use it's barell.

------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

[This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 09, 2001).]

Bitter July 9th, 2001, 02:30 PM


If getting hold of deactivated guns was that simple, I doubt he would be trying to make his own.

atropine July 9th, 2001, 03:17 PM


ahhh, the wonders of a metal lathe. I made my own rifling tool (4 turn) if you want any information for making your ow n then i can russle up my blue prints. You w ill need a
lathe though. Or for a small fee i could rifle a tube for you out of 1" (diameter) highspeed steel. As long as you arent going to use it and agree to a disclaimer (i dont w ant my
ass on the line)

------------------
all wize men have unwize fantasies &lt; ^ &gt;

JWD85 July 9th, 2001, 03:59 PM


atropine-

I would appreciate it if you would post the blue prints for the rifling tool you made.

Predator July 9th, 2001, 04:29 PM


In a dream I had, a drill bit worked just fine on a 1.5 inch aluminium rod with a 9mm bore.

A 9.5mm drillbit w as hammered into it, allowed to tw ist on it's way in, then pulled back out, allowing it to turn in the opposite direction.

It w orked well and didn't explode.


Not that it would have mattered, it was just a dream

zaibatsu July 9th, 2001, 04:40 PM


Gun barrels should rotate themselves, and have a stationary drill bit inserted, with a hole down the middle, with water/oil being pumped in.

However, we could forget the hole down the middle, and just bore it slowly.

viper01 July 13th, 2001, 08:04 PM


If you get a flat rectangular steel plate and cut a slot about 3mm wide across the plate diagonal.
You can then roll the plate steel around a metal bar to form a pipe w ith a slot twisting round the pipe.
You then get a piece of bar that w ill fit inside the home made pipe and drill a hole through the centre and make a 3mm-taped hole through the side for a guide screw.

You then fit a long steel rod through the hole in the centre of the bar, at one end of the rod you fit a handle preferably one that can spin on the shaft.
Now comes the hard part at the other end of the rod you have to make some sort of rifling file that is up to you.

You could make a spring-loaded filing device that can make 2 cuts 180 deg apart at the same time.
Old files can be cut up with an angle grinder for the rifling files.
If you are going to make large calibre barrel .45 or larger this system could be used w ithout too much precision of construction.

This is actually one of the ways rifling used to be done it isnt to hard to work out the angle of the twist you want and cut the slot accordingly.

If you want I can post a picture of this on this thread.

------------------
Happiness is a big bang!

[This message has been edited by viper01 (edited July 13, 2001).]

zaibatsu July 13th, 2001, 08:15 PM


A picture would be great viper, thankyou if you can!

SMAG 12B/E5 July 13th, 2001, 11:41 PM


Deezs, don't give up so easily. All the information necessary to build rifling equipment and barrels is available in the number 5 "Foxfire" series, Bill Holmes "Workshop" series and
"The Modern Riflebarrel" and other books by Harold Hoffman. There is plenty of material available axel shafts, special tubing and my favorite, one inch "suker rod" (used in oil
wells and cheap) that is made of 4140 alloy. The Hoffman series is especially good and contains information of the fabrication of reamers and related equipment.

deezs July 30th, 2001, 04:55 PM


You throw yourself to the mercy of the rules of phsics, if you use homemade guns for shooting. If you use it for self defence... You are an idiot. You never know, when it
explodes. It can happen w ith shotguns, if some sand or dirt gets into the barrel, that they explode, or earlier AK clones, in .22 caliber, that they crack, w hen contact with w ater.
You had better, to buy a gun. A rearmed model from the WWII is far better, than a homemade zip gun.
Here, in Hungary, you can buy an AK-74 under 100$. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif)
There's just one person (if you are smart no one), who knows, that you have a gun. Just the one, who sold it for you. The mag holds 30 rounds. One bullet is enough for him.

------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

Anthony July 30th, 2001, 06:44 PM


Half the fun of homemade firearms is the challenge of building them scratch, you can also be creative with the design.

Sure there's a risk using them (depends how good a gun smith you are) but there's also a risk buying illegal firearms.

Some dirt/sand in the barrel of a zip shotgun isn't going to burst the barrel...

nbk2000 July 31st, 2001, 05:17 AM


R.T.P.B. Rule #1: Trust no one. (Especially a criminal with a loaded gun. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif)
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Any half intelligent gun dealer is going to give you the gun without the firing pin. They come in a seperate bag for you to install later, after the deal has been completed.

One general store I heard of had a fully loaded Mini-14 hanging behind the counter in full sight of any potential robbers. They'd even hand it to you to look at, but you'd be
fucked if you then tried to jack the place w ith it.

Why?

Because the firing pin had been removed but there's a fully loaded sawed off double barrel under the counter. OOPPS. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif

------------------
"The know ledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

Fingerless September 3rd, 2001, 08:23 PM


The best rifle makers rifle their barrels by hand, w ith a type of ream and take very thin passes (Thousandths of an inch at a time). To make a good barrel you don't need a ton
of money, but a ton of time, and skill, and patience!

twinkle September 4th, 2001, 04:18 PM


here is a link for some nice info on rifling
http://ww w.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

zaibatsu September 4th, 2001, 05:07 PM


Or even this page... http://www.xtremeaccuracy.com/Rifle_Barrel.htm

shooter3 September 5th, 2001, 09:23 PM


"Barrels And Actions" copyright1991 by Harold Hoffman H&P Publishing 7174 Hoffman Rd. San Angelo, Tx. USA 76905. 320 pages. From barstock to completed barrel. This tech.
manual tells you everything including how to make the tools. I forget what I paid for it, but it was very reasonable.

atropine September 7th, 2001, 06:42 PM


i done a few using the single pass cut idea. But im going to use a twisted bar as opposed to filling the ready rifled. As the tw isted square bar is pulled through the square hole it
causes it to tw ist.

HMTD Factory October 1st, 2001, 03:53 PM


Electrical Discharge Machining...they produce the smoothest barrel, but only if you got electricity and timehttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Scientist September 5th, 2004, 11:26 AM


ahhh, the wonders of a metal lathe. I made my own rifling tool (4 turn) if you want any information for making your ow n then i can russle up my blue prints.
Still willing to post them?

raptor1956 September 5th, 2004, 07:07 PM


while I have researched DIY rifling with interest against the day (and it w ill come!) when we cant buy a barrel, most gunshops, even here in the people's republic of Australia,
sell second-hand barrels at a reasonable price. At this stage licences aren't required, and .22's are cheap enough to experiment to your heart's content.

MMIV September 5th, 2004, 08:46 PM


u could use the a drive sharft of a car, lathe and drill to the desired shape, but you need 2 place the steel under intense heat to soften the steel, so it easier to work w ith. also, i
had an idea of making rifling head to contain a slight angle,so that the head can twist on it's own and w ould not the factory barrel as a guide. but one w ord of advice, only
make barrel it u really need to. :)

Anthony September 6th, 2004, 02:22 PM


"Scientist", that post w as made over 3 years ago, and atropine has ceased to be a member here since then. So don't hold your breath.

Scientist September 6th, 2004, 02:46 PM


Anthony, thanks for the hint. :)

MrResearch September 4th, 2008, 10:36 AM


Electrolytic rifling is the most easy method to produce a high quality profile without any expensive tools.

See here: http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/extrude-hone/electrolytic-machining-and-rifl-ing-ecr/19736-35480-_2.html

Bugger September 5th, 2008, 06:02 AM


It should be possible to fashion an improvised rifle or pistol barrel out of high-pressure steel or stainless steel piping, with an extra-thick wall, as used for high-pressure fluid
transport in chemical process plants. Such piping is produced by extrusion at temperatures near the melting-point, through an orifice with a central mandrel make of a hard
refractory material, rather than by drilling out solid circular bars or similar. Perrys Chemical Engineers Handbook has a section dealing with standard diameters and guages (wall
thicknesses) of piping, with pressure ratings.

iHME September 5th, 2008, 09:10 AM


If the pipes pressure rating matches the cartridges (eg. is bigger) I don't see why it w ould not w ork.
Of course it would be a smoothbore w eapon if it is not rifled, but thats obvious.

festergrump September 5th, 2008, 11:04 AM


Smoothbore should be fine for a subgun, but as of now rifled barrel liners can still be had for the hobbiest which can be pressed into such seamless tubing with a hydraulic shop
press if the IS/OS diameters are consistant and compatable.

A reliable source for them can be found here. (http://www .trackofthewolf.com/(S(ldcctm451ooxyuzgh4w fty45))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID= 483).

486 September 5th, 2008, 05:19 PM


The electrolytic rifling seems to be EDM actually. When I saw the link I thought it involved coating the smooth bored blank with varnish or something, and scraping a groove in
the varnish for the rifling. then you use electrolysis [like the 5TH grade science fair electroplating thing] to "cut" the exposed metal away, If you run electrolyte through the
barrel it should "cut" it evenly [in my mind, I can't figure why it wouldn't].

MrResearch September 6th, 2008, 09:26 AM


The electrolytic rifling seems to be EDM actually.

No.

When I saw the link I thought it involved coating the smooth bored blank with varnish or something, and scraping a groove in the varnish for the rifling.

It's exactly this method, hence electrolytical rifling as an fluid electrolyte is used. I wondered which coating would work best, e.g. would be easy to apply, insulate good and be -
at the same time - easy to scratch off the barrels surface wherever the grooving is desired.
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486 September 6th, 2008, 06:12 PM


Oh, I think I understand, the electrolyte isn't conductive enough to eat away anything more than a few thousandths of an inch from the cathode. Right?
Otherw ise wouldn't it just take metal away from the w hole inside diameter of the blank?

MrResearch September 6th, 2008, 07:03 PM


Oh, I think I understand, the electrolyte isn't conductive enough to eat away anything more than a few thousandths of an inch from the cathode. Right?

No..the amount of metal can be calculated with the current over time and how much electrons are removed for the metal (iron) to become a soluable ion.

For example, you have want to remove 10g of Iron. That's about 0.178 moles. Then you need to remove 3 electrons per atom. That's 0.178*3= 0.53

The 0.53 has to be multiplied with the number of atoms per mole to get the complete amount of electrons we want to remove from the iron:

0.53 x 6.02214 x 10^23 = 3.226x10^23 = x

1 Ampere is about 6.241 x 10^18 electrons / second = y.

x/y= 51690 seconds or (51690/3600=)14.3 hours to remove 10g Iron with 1A or to be more precise, 14.3 hours to ionize 0.53m Fe to Fe(3+) ions.

Otherw ise wouldn't it just take metal away from the w hole inside diameter of the blank?

That's why the complete barrel has to be covered with somthing non-conductive - for example plastic spray or solved polystyrole. When this is done, the place where you w ant
the grooves (in this case the helix) has to be scratched inside the barrel. This is the most difficult step in the whole procedure because the helix has to be very flawless and must
not have a single spot where the plastic spray isn't properly removed.

But even w ith these difficulties it's by far more easy for amateurs compared to the other rifling methods.

Lenkers September 10th, 2008, 01:53 PM


So, our plan is :

1. Buy a SMT or SHT, because we cant drill a deep hole


2. Coat it w ith something none conductive, like epoxy glue :confused:
3. Scratch grooves in the coating
4. Put it in a tank with a conductive fluid
5. Apply current
6. Wait a few hours,
7. tadaahhh, we have a nice barrel :D

The problems are making the scratches inside the barrel and the electric part.

Any ideas on solutions?

iHME September 11th, 2008, 02:24 PM


Isn't the electrode hollow to spray electrolyte to push out the filings and stuff that gets "eaten" away?

At least the last time I read about EDM/ECM it said something like that.
But I also remember reading about it on a thread on The HomeGunsmith Forums (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi)
And it was about rifling about a barrel! So it fits our interests perfectly! :D
Someone there had also built a crude machine sometime ago but had no real prints for it and had rigged it up from scrap IIRC.

I DO have exelent pdf on EDM/ECM somewhere on my computer, but its ~00:20 here and I need to catch my sleep, so I'll upload the pdf and try to find a link to the thread
tomorrow.

I also have it printed out so if I have accidently deleted it I can scan it if nothing other helps. The pdf has some simple diagrams on the circuitry and similar stuff.
Tough my memories are a bit vague, it is something like more than 6 months after I read it and I read it at the shitter, so I had more pressing maners to pursue :o

Edit:

Okay, found the topic @ The Home Gunsmith Forums (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=2;t=21070;st= 0)

Read the thread completely, it is basically the same stuff we are after.

A site about ECM theory (http://w ww.eod.gvsu.edu/eod/manufact/manufact-281.html) A good read.

Attached the pdf I was talking on the above post below.

Lenkers September 12th, 2008, 01:34 PM


Huh? Some smart people already wrote books about home made EDMs :eek:

EDM How To Book by Ben Fleming

Build an EDM by Robert Langloi

http://ww w.build-stuff.com/EDMCompareBooks.htm

Some links I came across:

A Mini-EDM System (http://pico-systems.com/edm.html)


Homemade EDM -scroll down (http://home.earthlink.net/~a_wake/)

MrResearch September 13th, 2008, 07:58 AM


I wonder w hy we are talking about EDM :rolleyes:

It is extremely complicated to produce usable barrels with EDM, let alone the neccessary machinery.

There is a huge difference between EDM, ECM and the method I referred to, which is seemingly the only non-mechanic method an amateur could use. The method does have
nothing to do with EDM and only a bit with ECM.

486 September 18th, 2008, 11:13 PM


That's why the complete barrel has to be covered with something non-conductive - for example plastic spray or solved polystyrole [polystyrene?]. When this is done, the place
where you want the grooves (in this case the helix) has to be scratched inside the barrel. This is the most difficult step in the whole procedure because the helix has to be very
flawless and must not have a single spot w here the plastic spray isn't properly removed.

With the picture of the process it looked as if they were using the resistance of the electrolyte to cut just the grooves, with the little electrode pads on the mandrel thing, maybe
with no coating. Also you might do that to help with only "cutting" metal from where you scratched the grooves in the coating in case there was a few dots where the coating
didn't cover.

The HomeGunsmith Forums (http://w ww.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi)

I was just about to post fuzzbean's rifling machine right before I read your post! :D Too bad you need to subscribe and pay to see the "library" they have that probably has the
plans in it...

iHME September 19th, 2008, 11:55 AM


This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Too bad you need to subscribe and pay to see the "library" they have that probably has the plans in it...

So true. But even with free access they are excellent forums.
Also one can find real gems by lurking at the "New File and Information Uploads" subforum.
This week someone posted there prints for the P08 Luger, damn complicated weapon to machine tough.

jlwilliams October 7th, 2008, 10:22 PM


Many years ago I saw a simple rifling machine at a historical crafters exhibit, I think it was called the "Ozark Folk Center" in Arkansas. I wish I had pictures but I will try to
describe it.

It w as built onto a long table, twice as long as a barrel to be rifled plus some working room. The barrel was clamped down in blocks on the table, lengthwise to the table. The
cutting tool was on the end of a long rod (wooden I think) with the helix cut int the length of the rod. That rod was fed into the bore through a block on the table that had a
guide hole and a peg that rode in the helical slot making the rod turn as it was fed into the bore. Each pass cut a groove in the barrelm Multiple lands and grooves were indexed
by turning the barrel in it's blocks. A six sided barrel yielded a six land and groove rifling job. The gunsmith on sight told me that was w hy old guns of the era w ere generalu
hexagonal on the outside, to facilitate this type of early American rifling machine.

I was 15 years old at the time, and even then an avid gun nut. I hag asked the question "How did they do rifling" at the end of his scheduled presentation and was rew arded
with the long lesson that no one else stuck around to learn. Their loss.

Living here in America, I can get used or new barrels or blanks no problem. For now. Those of you living in places w here you can't buy them may well want to build a rifling
table. On the other hand, shotguns are inherently easier to make barrels for, and relatively easy to make amunition for. It may be easier to make a 410 or a 12g rifled slug
mould and just shoot a slug that stabilizes itself. Food for thought. Make an amunition to suit your barrel options.

iHME October 8th, 2008, 11:22 AM


I have plans for that kind of rifling machine!

http://rapidshare.com/files/152047050/How_to_Build_the_Antique_Rifling_Machine.pdf

It uses mainly lumber for everything and if I understood correctly, rather easy to make.

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Eliteforum July 19th, 20 02, 02:5 5 AM


Use email for stuff like that

<sm all>[ July 19, 2002, 09:45 AM: Me ssage edited by: Machiavelli ]</small>

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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 08:41 PM


DocPhelps
A new voice
Posts: 3
From: Backwoods, Kentucky
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 15, 2001 11:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone have any blueprints for the .50BMG. I've seen then on the web for around $120.00 to $175.00 but after material cost that's a little to high for me.
------------------
DocPhelps

Mmanwitgun
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 16, 2001 12:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you make a .50 gun, I can give you one peice of advice. Buy the barrel. When you are using something as powerful as that you don't want to fuck around w ith a homemade
barrel.
~Dave

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 16, 2001 01:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boo Hoo...*Sobing*
Know how am I supposed to kill Myself and make it look like an accident.

&gt;;-|&gt;

------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

DaRkDwArF
Frequent Poster
Posts: 258
From: Australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 16, 2001 07:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lol, and w here the hell do you expect to get half decent non WWII ammo for this thing?

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 16, 2001 08:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do you expect to get a .50cal barrel from?
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 64
From: Redding California
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 16, 2001 08:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want ammo for it, go to a gun shop, they sell ammo for them, they cost about 40 bucks for 10 rounds though.

DocPhelps
A new voice
Posts: 3
From: Backwoods, Kentucky
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 16, 2001 10:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bought my barrel from The Gun Parts Corp. out of NY. I paid $132.00 for a .50 cal M2HB. The ammo, I buy from Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, KY. for $1.25 a round.
I can get it in Ball, AP, & APIT. The ammo is also dated between 1974 thru 1994.
I'm working on my own design for the receiver, but the steel material is what I'm having a problem with. One shop said that I need to use 4140 or 4340 tool steel and that
Stainless wasn't strong enough. But then again LAR Grizley makes them completly out of Stainless.
[This message has been edited by DocPhelps (edited January 16, 2001).]

Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 536
From: Dizneland
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 17, 2001 03:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DOC: I want to go the Knob Creek gun/flamethrower/bang show this year. Have you ever been, what is it like.
You can but .50BMG online for $2.50 per round.

I belive NBK has an M2... or am I hallucinaing from those fumes again?

------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?

Agent Blak
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 17, 2001 04:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are "APIT" rounds?

------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Smartguy
A new voice
Posts: 11
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 17, 2001 05:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armor Piercing Incendiary Tracer
(at least, I think so..)

Checked Jane's Infantry Weapons:


APIT M20 boat tailed, pointed, steel core, 39.66 g bullet, Vo 888 m/s
is indeed armor piercing incendiary tracer.

[This message has been edited by Smartguy (edited January 17, 2001).]

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 17, 2001 06:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanx
We don't have A lot of .50cal rifles up here.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

DocPhelps
A new voice
Posts: 3
From: Backwoods, Kentucky
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 17, 2001 08:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Machine Gun shoot at Knob Creek is really something to see. Every kind of Semi or Full Auto you can think of is there. Everything from .22cal to 40mm. Flamethrowers,
nighttime tracer shoots, blowing up cars w ith dyamite. You can rent a weapon from the owner, and buy the rounds, and you can fire anything you w ant to. It's really something
to see. The next shoot is from april 5th thru the 8th. If you can make it it will be something you won't forget.
I will be there Saturday & sunday, hope to meet ya'll.

You w ere right. The APIT is an Armor Pierceing Incenerary Tracer round. It has a tip made of Thermite. When it hits the target the Thermite lights, and w ith that and the force of
impact it drives the solid Tungsten Carbide insert through. It will penetrate 3" of armor plate at 100yds.
Send an e-mail address and I will send you a RealPlayer Clip of the Marine Corps testing different .50cal rounds

smokey
A new voice
Posts: 7
From: newcastle nsw australia
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 07, 2001 02:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you may find that the stainless steel used is 440 grade or pehaps better.....have a fat time

BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 08, 2001 05:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone seen this?
<a href="http://www .birdman.org/products/jaded.htm" target="_blank">http://ww w.birdman.org/products/jaded.htm</a>
hahaha.

Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 08, 2001 05:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool, this site again! I'd lost the URL to it. Check out some of the other stuff they've got! The 300 round Uzi mag is great!

HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 08, 2001 06:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HAHA,
I think jumping off a bridge will kill oneself without spending 28 bucks.
It is guaranteed to fire "one shot" now what is that supposed to mean? I don't even think
the pipe barrel will stand the pressure. Not to mention that the gun is "breechless".
Imagine some kids place their heads right next to the exposed case head trying to align
the "1X scope", what will happen if the cartridge ruptures and sends out white hot jet? If it happened in a firearm it will ruin
the action, bear that in mind.

Where is the 300round uzi mag? I need to see


some magazine designs.

Anthony
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 08, 2001 08:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<a href="http://www .birdman.org/productlist.htm" target="_blank"> http://www .birdman.org/productlist.htm</a>

vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 09, 2001 01:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The site is a joke, good site though.
The 1x scope is a beautiful piece.

Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Dow ning Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 09, 2001 02:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone here remember when that Birdman guy posted here offering us all a discount on that KeWl gun of his ?

vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 09, 2001 03:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hahaha, w e shouldnt have flamed him away, damnit.
My airsoft glock 17 needs some homeboy night sites.

Birdman
A new voice
Posts: 9
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 14, 2001 01:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You didn't "Flame me away". I still loom here every once and a w hile. I can follow the websites where my pics are physically "linked" via the stats function on my birdman.org
website. That's how I found this w ebsite (and your thread).
I think someone must have thought I was a genuine "serious business" and jumped all over me for trying to sell all of my BWS products to fellow posters. I reciprocated with
some kind of reply like:

""Fine then! ... because you have failed to recognize my pow er and authority in the weapons community I w ill no longer allow any posters on this forum to purchase my
products!"

... just to stir it up even more.

Sorry!

This was also meant only in humor. I hope nobody w ould actually consider taking me seriously. I have too much fun with this BWS stuff to get all pissy and such.

If anyone really DOES get mad at me, then I'll have BWS's East German Engineering Specialists "Hans" come and kick their ass!

I'll check in from time to time. New products (and video clips) coming soon.

------------------
Sincerely,
Birdman
Birdman Weapons Systems, Inc
"Unfriendly Products for an Unfriendly World"
<a href="http://www .birdman.org" target="_blank"> http://www .birdman.org</a>
Email: EPROM@birdman.org

I_am_the_Black_one April 29th, 2003, 02:08 AM


I have plans for a .50 BMG rifle Id have built it by now if not for the barrel problems Does any one think that a barrel could e made i was thinking of something like this

Ok you have you home made 50 cal barrel coved with fibreglass matting and encased in maybe a few layers of pvc pipe I have a PDF from Crapden Press (Palden press) that
states that you can make a Recoilless Rocket launcher out of pvc pipe and fibre glass you simply cover you first pvc pine in fibre glass till it get to the next size up of pipe and
cover it w ith that or cut the pipe and put it over the fibre glass I think this is highly dubious as it uses "cookies" to reduce the recoil

I may start a new thread on Recoilless launchers il go search the Archives

Anthony April 29th, 2003, 03:46 PM


Don't you think that there'd be a small difference in chamber pressure between an improvised recoiless rocket launcher, and a .50BMG?!

I_am_the_Black_one April 29th, 2003, 11:51 PM


Originally posted by Anthony
Don't you think that there'd be a small difference in chamber pressure between an improvised recoiless rocket launcher, and a .50BMG?!

No I think you misunderstood me you have your home made barrel Then your fibre glass govering over that you have a pvc pipe or a aluiminum pipe this is for safty so if the
pressure is to much for the orignal barrell you dont get ahhh damaged

Mmanwitgun88 April 30th, 2003, 01:23 AM


If you can't buy an old surplus barrel, not sure how I could help. Once you get past that problem you might find this link interesting Homemade 50 (http://
action_enterprise.tripod.com/FiftyPro.htm)
~Dave

HypersonicGamer April 30th, 2003, 01:25 AM


Please don't hurt yourself and buy some proper plans...

I_am_the_Black_one April 30th, 2003, 02:49 AM


Originally posted by HypersonicGamer
Please don't hurt yourself and buy some proper plans...

I do have proper plans and Id buy a barrel but What THEY dont know can Hurt THEM :D
Although thanks for the concern

Anthony April 30th, 2003, 03:45 PM


This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
If your piece of thick walled, seamless steel tubing fails, a few w raps of GRP and a PVC pipe won't save you. Better you have tw or more tubes that fit inside on another.

A piece of seamless hydraulic tubing w ould be best, even the larger diameter sizes are rated for several tens of thousands of PSI.

HypersonicGamer April 30th, 2003, 07:39 PM


You could use a car axle.

Also, the seamless hydraulic tubing would have to be fairly thick in order to work.

xyz April 30th, 2003, 10:13 PM


Not really, if it's rated for the pressures stated by Anthony then it should be fine, smokeless powder reaches pressures of about 8000psi IIRC. Plus, the powder used in .50BMG
cartridges would probably be a reasonably slow one because of the size of the cartridge.

zaibatsu April 30th, 2003, 10:15 PM


For someone w ho can't buy 9mm brass, how do you expect to get the components for .50 BMG rounds? And what kind of protection do you think GRP w ill give you from a .50?
Make the barrel correctly, sleeving smaller diameter tubes to increase the strength may be fine for much smaller calibres, but not for something like a .50BMG. I think the steel
usually used for barrels is 4140 (correct me if I'm wrong here), get yourself a piece about 35" long by 1.5" diameter, and bore the correct hole in that. Then you've got to get a
chamber reamer etc...

I_am_the_Black_one May 1st, 2003, 03:24 AM


Ok i thought we had alredy cleared this up 9mm SMG

You can buy .50 cal rounds in aus so its no problem


I was just thinking that the fibre glass pvc covering would show down frags if a rupture ocurred. Il go see if i can buy some hydrolic tubing

If not my grand father has a very large tractor........:D

HypersonicGamer May 1st, 2003, 11:25 AM


Are you saying 9mm brass for SMGs are different? Or are you saying that you can now put together a fifty after failing to construct an SMG? :confused:

zaibatsu May 1st, 2003, 12:32 PM


9mm submachine guns fire the 9mm parabellum round. So does the browning high-power (pistol), so does the SIG-Sauer P220 (pistol), so does the Beretta 92F (pistol) so does
the CZ75 (pistol) so does the Steyr GB (pistol) so does the.....

The ammunition used in smgs is not in any w ay different to that used in pistols to my knowledge. Whether it has higher loadings or not I can't say - but that isn't to do with a
different cartridge case.

Anthony May 1st, 2003, 02:39 PM


SMGs run on bog standard pistol ammo, AFAIK.

Actually, Zaibatsu's idea is much better than the hydraulic tubing, you do have a lathe and are a machinest afterall, so it should be no problem.

xyz May 1st, 2003, 08:39 PM


Something that I have alw ays wondered, where does one find a drill bit that is 35" long so that one can drill out the barrel?

I_am_the_Black_one May 1st, 2003, 11:23 PM


Hyper sonic STFU!!! I have sevral smgs the run of the mill ammo jams them on me. Thats w hy i buy military brass and do it that w ay.....
ID machine the barrel but what I was thinking about w as added safty.You cant muck around with a 50 cal cause I know who would win the Fight:D Im on the bolt for it I have
for it The rest is done sept the barrel I think il use hydrollic Piping for it. Next problem is making a decent stock altough I could go to the gun store and telling I was making a
toy gun for my Lil brother (I dont have one!!) And con a stock that way:D It would be sinthetic tho and need alotta mods to it :rolleyes: OH the joys of making your own
firearms covertly

kingspaz May 2nd, 2003, 07:16 PM


I've had enough of this! This is why w e used to weed out the shit immidiately. It spares people from having to decypher shit like what is typed above!

Now, for the LAST time w ill you spell w ords correctly and put full stops at the end of EVERY sentence.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Having trouble understanding the plans? - Archive File

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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 08:51 PM


Azazel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From: ...
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 11:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok so most of us here would have seen or had access to plans on building firearms from scratch!
Often at times i pull out these plans, look them over once but put them away because i have trouble understanding how the trigger assembly works or how this or that works...
so why not make up a little discussion on all of this...

if you have any links or sites that you know of which have good definitions of the parts which make up a firearm [bolt, firing pin, trigger assmebly, sear, hammer] or has nice
cut away diagrams, please paste the link on here.
If you know how to rifle barrels and all the equipment needed to do this please feel free to give your opinion or explanation....
Even if you have seen somebody make one or have had any experiences please feel free to share your knowledge.
ANY INFORMATION OF SUCH NATURE TO DO WITH FABRICTION OR WORKINGS OF A FIREARM please paste it here...

im currently looking over .22 machine pistol plans... interesting but even after reading it like 4 times, i cant work out how the trigger assembly works darn it !

The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 02, 2001 11:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think I've seen good plans for a making a complete firearm. I have seen good plans though for auto sears and conversion templates.
<a href="http://www.araby-dalbo.com/users/1196/161/ruger.html" target="_blank">http://www.araby-dalbo.com/users/1196/161/ruger.html</a>
that site if remember correctly has some drawings for full auto parts for the ruger 10/22.

Conversion are much easier than building guns from scratch. I onced helped out a guy that is a Class 2 gunsmith, I observed make a few legal conversions of Ruger 10/22's, 3
AK's and 1 SKS. The SKS was the easiest, the disconnector is located on the underside of the hammer and just sheared off. A piece of metal is welded on the trigger frame to
prevent the sear from falling. In that manner the sear is engaged as long as the trigger is pulled and it the weapon keeps firing. Don't try anything with a Marlin 60, pretty hard
to figure out.

Azazel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From: ...
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 12:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanx for the help bro
any other sites people ?

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 12:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One way you could try to rifle a barrel is to place something in side the barrel with the pattern of rifling that you want. Then you heat up the steel and hit hit the outside of the
barrel. This will force it to fill the grooves and leave you with a rifling.
This just an Idea.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 07:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imagine the pressure required to do that! Isn't that how they cold form barrels nowdays? Simply squeeze trhe barrel around a "mould"?

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 09:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the person that told me about it said it was a Europian method(originally).

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
posted February 18, 2001 10:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's called "hammer forge"
A Ruger 10/22 Target model has a hammer forged barrel.(So does a CZ 75)
Hammer forge actually hammer a block of steel
into a barrel. There are multiple hammers striking at the same time. Because the barrel is pre-stressed, so there's no stress
problem in the barrel. It's also a cheaper process but it doesn't beat botton rifling.

BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 19, 2001 04:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats button rifling HMTD
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.

HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 19, 2001 01:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am glad I didn't say "bottom" rifling.

Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 19, 2001 01:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suppose you had best leave 'bottom rifling' to that Tyrone chap.

angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 281
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 19, 2001 11:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Azazel... a tip, don't start with an automatic firearm straight away...
i started to make the 9mm submachine gun that p.a luty devised. although the method is supposed to be simple it is quite hard.

i suggest you start your self from the bottom and work your way up.

i started by making my own knives, then my own swords, then worked up to a bow and arrow, then a crossbow. and now i am making a single shot shot gun. i don't know
how far i will go.

i suggest you go and find a machine shop somewhere, and ask if you could learn the basics, like welding, soldering, cutting and bending metal. i went to a furniture
manufacturer and i started to help the technicians repairing the machines, once i gained some trust they taught me all this stuff i did not know about. its brilliant.

oh yeah and by the way, look out for plans on my single shot shotgun

I_am_the_Black_one April 29th, 2003, 03:05 AM


You can rifle your own barrels with a lathe with a few improvised bits if any one is interested I Can wip up a few diagrams it also depends on the twist you have to make a few
parts to slow down the speed of the lathe this is also theroretically possable to be done with a drill press

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shootersharp July 26th, 2001, 03:04 AM


Where can i get plans for homemade weapons, submachine guns etc.??? (or where can i buy weapons without a license in
Europe?) because i live in Germany, and its very hard here to get guns! NEEDS HELP!!!

Azazel July 26th, 2001, 05:57 AM


look around for Sten MkII plans

type that in on a search engine


shouldnt be too hard to find

shootersharp July 26th, 2001, 08:04 AM


Thanks! But the search engines found not something what was real good for making a submachine gun! And normaly i would
prefere to buy a complete Gun! Is there no way????

Heavy Recoil July 26th, 2001, 11:06 AM


Have any good files of of explosives drugs or weapons, I have a few that I didnt trade to Victim, but I wont give them to
anyone for free. sten machinist plans and a homemade subgun file I am making.

------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein

shootersharp July 26th, 2001, 11:25 AM


Please send me the files! Thanks!

Victim July 26th, 2001, 08:07 PM


Sorry for the lack of books, Im on 56k like I said, and hosting a FTP with a crappy dial up just wont work, so I will wait till I
have cable modem, or will try and find somewhere that has a lot of storage space, I might use a web host and a program to
split the files into say 500kb files, so I will be able to put a few of the books on there, (as topcities only allow 150mb) hopfully
I will have some time spare soon (work..)

shootersharp July 27th, 2001, 01:43 AM


Waiting there for you...

J July 27th, 2001, 07:13 AM


Have you thought about using usenet? Just find one of the many empty binary groups, and both parties post their stuff there.
It would be simple enough to password protect the zip files in case anyone was lurking in the group. The advantage is that you
can post gigs of files in one chunk (not a good idea though, anyone who has an automatic time cut-off won't be able to
download the file).

If you don't subscribe to a news server (or your ISP's server is crap) find one at <a href='http://www.newzbot.com/'>http://
www.newzbot.com/</a> that allows posting. I think there's a free posting service (that will be listed) run by one of the major
providers, it ought to allow binaries.

If anyone is interested in doing this, I'll upload some of my stuff.

------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/
&.src=bc&.view=l)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

The_Coyote July 27th, 2001, 11:12 PM


these aren't really plans but are a good basis for designs. They are exploded views of various makes of firarms. www.urban-
armory.com/blueprints.htm (http://www.urban-armory.com/blueprints.htm)

------------------
Gun control is being able to hit your target.

[This message has been edited by The_Coyote (edited July 27, 2001).]

Ragnar July 29th, 2001, 03:35 AM


Go to www.wetworx.com (http://www.wetworx.com)

They have the complete sten mk2 machinist plans under the "conversions" link I believe.
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twinkle August 17th, 2001, 12:09 PM
go to : http://pinfire4.homestead.com/Patents5.html
http://www.derringer.de/index2.htm

the first one is of a patent for a 2mm pinfire gun which only contains of three moving parts and two coil springs and the
second one is a German site of all kind of information about derringers it has drawings as well

nbk2000 August 19th, 2001, 12:46 PM


Here's a forum dedicated to storage on the net. It's oriented to porn videos, but storage space is storage space. Read and
learn.

http://bbs.bianca.com/mforums/s/seymorebuttz/

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited August 19, 2001).]

herrbauer August 19th, 2001, 01:10 PM


Sorry, but find guns in Germany (such as Sten MkII) would be almost impossible. One alternative is to search in Tcheck
replubic or Italian border, but bring it to Germany is a hard task. The Bundesgrenzeschutz (border police) wouldn't let you
breath while in German border. Anyway, try to buy old WWII guns in personal collections and modify it so it can fire.
Aufwiedersehen.

twinkle September 3rd, 2001, 03:09 PM


Here you can find the drawings of the ppsh41 and the thomson submachine gun
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/2978/

viper01 October 1st, 2001, 08:43 AM


Is this any use to you?
I know there arent any dimensions that is for you to work out.
http://liverdyne.50megs.com/images/smg01.jpg
------------------
Happiness is a big bang!

[This message has been edited by viper01 (edited October 01, 2001).]

Scientist November 4th, 2003, 09:08 PM


Originally posted by herrbauer
Sorry, but find guns in Germany (such as Sten MkII) would be almost impossible.
No it's not impossible. I know someone who knows a (illegal) gun dealer. So it's not impossible.
If you don't know anyone you still can get in contact with people at train stations. Maybe you'll just find some guys who are
selling drugs, but for a small fee they will certainly remember someone who sells guns.
If build a gun yourself you still have the problem of getting ammunition. For this you still have to get in contact with criminal
elements.

Iknownothing November 13th, 2003, 08:47 PM


A lot of battles took place all over Germany. So research where they where. Try to find one that took place outside a small
town. Then get a metal detector, you can find guns this way I know of people who do. Once you know what gun you got rebuild
it. If you are lucky you will find one not to rusted. This is also a good way to get ammo. (if the ammo was in a box it may still
be good)

-----------------

Well sh!t

AsylumSeaker November 14th, 2003, 05:31 AM


The previous post about checking out the old battlesites with a metal detector is not as stupid as it may sound. Anything
buried in the dirt will be totaly fucked, but if you manage to find an old bunker or a weapons storage place it may have some
useful things in it. If not working weapons, then perhaps you can find spare peices to make your own weapons.
This can be done all around the world. In the vietcong tunnels in vietnam there are hundreds of unfound weapons. Even here
in australia you can find relics along the coast leftover from ww2.

steyr November 23rd, 2003, 03:58 PM


shootersharp - You can mail me, I have very short and easy drawings of:
"Slap" 12-Gauge Zipgun
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Simple Improvised 9mm (or .38 caliber) Pipe Pistol
22 LR or .22 short Improvised Pipe Pistol
Carbine (7.62 mm NATO)
Simple Improvised 12 gauge Shotgun
Improved Pipe Gun Design (bolt action)
Match Gun
Improvised Grenade Launcher
M79 Design
Mortars

It's very short so I can zip them and send to you.

FragmentedSanity November 24th, 2003, 05:49 AM


steyr - Why not upload your plans to a web page so everyone can benifit. There are lots of free file storage sites around -
then you only have to put it up once and then post us a link. Given the number of times we get asked for weapon plans its
fairly safe to assume that lots of people would like to look at them.

Garbage November 24th, 2003, 10:44 AM


Here are some books that can help you:

Zips Pipes And Pens - J. David Truby - 20 Mb

E x p e d i e n t Homema de Firearms 9mm Submachinegun 30 MB

Home Workshop Guns - 9mm Machine Pistol 34 MB

Home Workshop Prototype Firea rms 45MB

Home Workshop Firearms - Two P istol Designs 4 MB

Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol 5 MB

The .22 Machine and the two pistols designs you can download at:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/book.htm

The others were too big to put in the ftp.

These homemade guns can be very dangerous. The picture below shows an accident with a pen gun:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/accident.jpg

steyr November 24th, 2003, 11:36 AM


I can put them to ftp, but they are in two .html files, so I can upload them to my www account. I'll do it in my free time. Maybe
someone can make thread "Offering - Looking for" in the LINKS AND LITERATURE forum when we collect more offers?

Garbage, you scared me! That photo shows what happens when you didn't do a "test fire" before using zip gun. It's necessary
to shot few bullets far away from you.

kvitekrist November 24th, 2003, 12:12 PM


My shotgun was made with the simplest of tools. An angle grinder and a powerdrill did most of the work.

http://geocities.com/osteknopp/shotgun.html

here is some pictures.. blueprints wil come.

anyways.. It's 12gauge hammerfired break action :)

steyr November 24th, 2003, 01:13 PM


Yeah, preety one. What do you think about this drawings? It will work?
LINK FOR THE DRAWINGS OF SHOTGUN (http://steyrphotos.w.interia.pl/shotgundraw.gif)

McGyver November 24th, 2003, 03:54 PM


Anyone have a pdf on how to do a full-auto conversion on an AK?

Edit: Link (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=686&highlight=conversion+AK47)

steyr November 24th, 2003, 05:38 PM


What inner diameter of pipe is used for .22 rimshot? I forgot it :D I'll be grateful for centimeters.

NickSG November 24th, 2003, 06:50 PM


6mm pipe is perfect for .22LR and under.

I just got through making a tiny .22 zipgun. Its less than 3 1/2 inches long and less than 1 1/2 inches high. IOWs, it can fit
just about anywhere, and it still packs a punch. It went through a sheet of 14 gauge steel, so its far from a toy. :)
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Garbage November 24th, 2003, 08:14 PM


The truth abo ut the accidents is that even the tested gu ns can fail; this is caused by many motives no t jus t wrong test
Incorrect materials like thin pipes after a long time of use can create many fissures in the parts of the guns that receive the
tension, after some time al the system is in weariness and soon it will explode or just fail. One of most common problem in
guns is the dirty and the rust of propellant s b urn.

All these problems can be solve with a good project, appropriates test and conservation of it. Remember that every time that
you pull the trigger an explo sion h a p p e n s near of your face, if the projectile bar the barrel will certain explo de

dana_m_h November 24th, 2003, 10:08 PM


i am making a screw action 12ga shotgun similar th thae one up there but closer to the one ine the sten gun forum i will post
results

Rhadon November 25th, 2003, 03:43 AM


dana_m_h: i am making a screw action 12ga shotgun similar th thae one up there but closer to the one ine the sten gun
forum i will post results I hope that you read my email.

steyr November 25th, 2003, 11:50 AM


NICKSG: I have BB gun, it has alluminium barrel (6mm) and .22 bullet has too much free space. I thought that I can use 5,5
mm steel barrel with 3mm wall. What do you think? Are .22's powerful enough to kick? That's small bullet, so kick must be
small, isn't it?

NickSG November 25th, 2003, 06:18 PM


My .22LR combo (which weighs nearly 2 pounds, or about a kilogram) doesnt kick near as bad a standard pressure 9mm
cartridges, although you do get a recoil. The recoil is soft, but it manages to lift the muzzle about 1 inch with a firm handle.

The pipe I made my .22 zipgun with is 6mm ID. The .22LR is 5.56mm in diameter, so the fit isnt that loose. The walls must
be at least 3mm though. The .22 is a much higher pressure cartridge than most people think it is, so unless you have a
strong pipe the barrel will rupture. Always test fire it no less than 30 feet away from you before firing it in your hands. Look for
any stress marks, and if there arent any, then the pipe is strong enough.

Radiant November 25th, 2003, 07:00 PM


at http://www.varkoume.com/shared/index.php?usr=Aquilifer88 there are lot of ebooks on homemade weapons and such, free
to download. you need emule though... and i know some of the files (actually a lot of the files) there have some
"questionable" contents, but lots of the stuff is good tough.

Jacks Complete November 25th, 2003, 07:06 PM


As a way to try to keep some of you guys a little safe, how about you look at how the pros test if a gun is safe?

Look up "Proof testing" and see the accepted way that almost every gun in the UK for the past 300 years has been tested,
and try that.

Obviously, if you let your gun rust to bits, it will still fail!

xyz November 27th, 2003, 04:22 AM


To clear a few things up...

The .22LR bullet is not 5.56mm in diameter, because it is actually .223 and not .22, and therefore it is 5.66mm. The diameter
of the casing (note to newbies, casing, not rim) is even larger, being 5.71mm, so your pipe has to be at least 5.71mm to
accomodate a .22LR.

This means that .22LR definitely won't fit in a 5.5mm barrel (so don't bother trying steyr).

If you want info on cartridges then go to ammoguide, it is an excellent resource for zipgun makers. Ammoguide (http://
www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/)

NickSG November 27th, 2003, 03:11 PM


5.56 and .223 are the same. Otherwise you wouldnt be able to shoot a .223 winchester from a .5.56mm.

Ammonal November 27th, 2003, 07:09 PM


XYZ and NickSG you are both close to the truth, but not quite. The calibre of a barrel is given as the diameter of the rifling
grooves and the islands in between.
Thus a 5.56mm projectile = 5.56/25= 0.2224", and a .223= .223*25=5.575mm. This is the OD of the projectile that is the
part of the projectile that is gripped by the rifling grooves. The difference in diameter is only negligable and allows .223 to be
fired in a 5.56 and vice versa.

If you need a barrel for a .22, use piece of 20mm mild steel rod and a 15/64 drill bit to drill the chamber, and a 5.5mm drill
for the barrel. Now before you say "that is insane it is way too small" take a round chainsaw file that fits into your barrel and
put a power drill onto the end of the file and spin it with a small amount of oil on the file moving the file in and out of the
barrel. this enlarges the bore by a few thousands. once this is done. Get some steel wool, put a ball of it onto the end of a
piece of steel rod and run the wool up and down the barrel with a twisting motion. Doing so leaves lots of small scratches in a
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slightly spiral direction. Whether this helps, is unknown to me but a 3" inch barrel made in this way shoots a cluster of 8" at 20
metres.

If you do not wish to take the time and effort just get the longest 15/64 drill available and drill the hole barrel with it. It is
oversize but it works and is very quick to produce. If the barrel is made in this manner to unload you would have to poke the
empty shell out of the chamber using a piece of rod or similar.

ossassin November 27th, 2003, 07:58 PM


Yes, a .223 is 5.56mm. To my knowledge, all of the bullets that you've mentioned have the same diameter, such as a .22
short, .22, .22LR and .223. If you want your gun to be accurate enough to even be classified as a firearm, your barrel must
have a diameter that is equal to or smaller than that of the bullet. The rim at the rear of the casing is NOT designed to
actually enter the barrel. :rolleyes: In fact, it doesn't even enter the chamber.

Although it will make the project more complicated, I would definately suggest making a chamber that is seperate from the
barrel. Also, how are you planning on rifling the barrel? I hope you're not going to use a smoothbore! :eek:

One last suggestion: since the .22 is such a small caliber that generates so little pressure, how about supressing it? The
supressor itself would be much easier to make than the gun, and in modern warfare, you would probably not last long with a
homemade .22 that's not supressed (audio supressor, not flash.) That's an entirely different topic, though.

Edit:
I'm sorry for repeating all of that. You must have posted while I was typing mine, Ammonal. A tube with some steel-wool
scratches is NOT a barrel: not one that will last long, anyway. You need to grind grooves in a uniform spiral down the barrel. I
have no idea how to do this. The grooves should be fairly thin and shallow. Since the projectile is so short, the rifling would not
have to be very tight in order to stablize it. 1:12 (1 rotation for every 12 inches) or less ought to be fine.

The cartridge should fit in the chamber snugly, but should slide in easily. For reliability purposes, you might want to consider
throating the chamber.

PHAID November 27th, 2003, 09:36 PM


For the purpose of a zip gun the rifling is a nice option but not needed.

90% of shootings are at around 7 feet so for its purpose a smooth barrel will do fine.

I have made several zip guns in .22cal for testing and with a standard 1/8in pipe they work quite well up to around 30ft befor
accuracy is aa big issue.

As for silencers for them its quite easy to make simple ones that work reasonably well but if you want good sound reduction it
takes some work. (not that id try it due to the legal issues);)

ossassin November 27th, 2003, 10:02 PM


I wonder how hard it would be to integrate a silencer into the barrel design. Many models of guns do this, but I don't know how
the mechanics would work. Does anybody know anything about that?

NickSG November 27th, 2003, 10:57 PM


Rifling a zipgun barrel is pointless, although it does increase the bullets velocity (and accuracy, of course). I wouldnt bother
with it through. A 4 inch smooth barrel will easily get the bullet over 900 FPS, plenty of velocity to do some serious damage,
and from just 10 feet away you can hit a pop can 4 out of 5 times.

A couple of months ago I posted a link on how to make a simple suppressor. I dont have time to look for it right now, but it
shouldnt be too hard to find.

ossassin November 28th, 2003, 01:36 AM


Well, I guess it really depends on the intended use. Are you making this because you want a gun and can't legally purchase
one, or are you making it for a one-time-use thing where you'll have to sneak up behind someone and plug 'em? (I'm not
saying that one should do this, but I'm simply addressing the possible applications of such a "zip" gun.)

If you want a good gun that you can keep to use whenever you may need one, such as with a burgler or in a "when the shit
hits the fan" situation, you'd probably want a rifled barrel. They are more accurate and more durable. Commercial smoothbore
firearms are unheard of.

If you just need a gun to...erm...take care of someone, by all means, go with the smoothbore. It's fast, simple, cheap, and
gets the job done at close range. Ultimately, it's up to you and what the gun will have to be capable of.

Edit:

When i stated that commercial smoothbore firearms were unheard of, I meant breach-loaded firearms (not muzzleloaders.)
I'm sorry for the confusion.

xyz November 28th, 2003, 07:49 AM


NickSG, I didn't say that 5.56mm was different from .223, I just said that .22LR was .223 in diameter (not .22) and that this is
actually bigger than 5.56mm (which you said was the diameter of a .22LR).

Incidentally, the 5.56mm bullet is actually .224 in diameter and so is quite a bit bigger than 5.56mm.

Use ammoguide for gods sake.

dana_m_h November 28th, 2003, 12:59 PM


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I am not going to point fingers but many companies build and sell smooth bore... but they are blackpowder... You cant make
a rifle a smoothbore because therefore it is nolonger a rifle it is a shotgun as a figure of speech. If you really want to try to
get a rifled barel it still can be bigger than you need but it wont be accurate, to make it more accurate you can do what many
blackpowder rifles do, that is use a patch. Also your bullet's patch must be greased or the bullet could rip through the patch
and leave it in your barel, leavin you with a mess and a problem... do what you want, but there is always a downside even if it
is professionaly manufactured: pro manufactured will make you need a permit or will leave a paper trail... so youve always got
a downside

EDIT: grammer

Arkangel November 28th, 2003, 01:19 PM


5.56 and .223 are the same. Otherwise you wouldnt be able to shoot a .223 winchester from a .5.56mm.

So how does that work with interchanging .38 and .357 ammo? I always understood you could swap them - maybe it was using
the .357 in the larger barrel. Maybe it was that lead bullets are more malleable. Maybe I just don't have a clue what I'm
talking about?:p

Speaking of which dana, wtf are YOU going on about? Your downside appears when you start writing. Might I venture to
suggest that you think a little more before you post?

What size are people reaming their zip barrels? I always thought they were 5.5mm, as that's a more common ream size.

ossassin November 28th, 2003, 03:28 PM


Dana, I was not talking about muzzleloaders! Seeing as how muzzleloaders are obsolete in modern warfare, I was correct in
saying that smoothbores are obsolete. :rolleyes: A rifled barrel will be more accurate than a smoothbore, and for reasonable
accuracy, the barrel can not be larger than the bullet. A makeshift smoothbore could be larger, but since it won't have riflings,
it's going to be a piece of crap, anyway. It would work at close range, but it's definately not something I'd bet my life on.

NickSG November 28th, 2003, 04:05 PM


The .38 special is actually .357 caliber., but do not confuse the .38 special with other .38 calibers. The .38 S&W is .36, and the
.38 super is .355, I think. The .380 is also .355.

The .38 special can be shot from a .357 wheelgun, but a .357 magnum can not be shot through a .38 special. The .357
magnum is loaded to much higher pressures than the .38 special, not to mention the magnum is about 1/4 inch longer.

xyz November 28th, 2003, 08:47 PM


Arkangel, I have never tried but from the info I have, there is no way you could even get the .22LR bullet (according to
ammoguide - 5.66mm) into a 5.5mm hole, let alone the casing (which ammoguide says is 5.71mm).

And before anyone says that the casing isn't meant to fit into the barrel, this may be true with most firearms but it makes
zipguns much more simple if the casing does fit (note: I am talking about the casing, not the rim). The other advantage to
having a barrel a bit large is that your zipgun will be able to fire all .22 Rimfire calibres interchangeably (yes, even .22Mag,
because there is enough extra space for it's slighlty larger diameter case).

6mm sounds like the best diameter for .22 Zips, and if you really wanted a bullet that was a good fit, you could use a .243
bullet with a .22 blank behind it (make sure your gun is strong because a heavier bullet means much higher chamber
pressures).

ossassin November 29th, 2003, 07:02 PM


xyz, it was designed for a 5.56mm barrel, despite what "ammoguide" may say. It's common knowledge. Assuming that the
barrel is rifled, the bullet will deform inside of the barrel. This is what allows you to use a barrel with a smaller diameter than
that of the bullet. I don't really know what a smoothbore would do to the bullet. It might work.

xyz November 29th, 2003, 08:01 PM


Ah, OK then. Wouldn't the barrel start off as 5.66mm though and then taper down? I ask because if the barrel was 5.56mm as
soon as it started, then wouldn't you be unable to chamber the round?

And don't speak dubiously of ammoguide, it is an excellent program with the cartridge and bullet dimensions for pretty much
any commercial or wildcat round you can think of. The error was entirely on my part.

I still wouldn't want to try that with a smoothbore because of there being no "empty space" between the rifling grooves for the
bullet to squash into. I suppose that in a rifled barrel, having it 0.1mm too small would help the bullet to grip the rifling, but
there is no advantage to that with a smoothbore.

ossassin November 30th, 2003, 01:54 AM


XYZ, I just took out my trusty .30-06 to answer your question. A bullet would not fit in the muzzle end of the barrel. Also, the
bore seemed to ohave a consistent windth. From what I could tell without completely dismantling it was that a bullet would not
fit in the breach end of the barrel. The part of the chamber that holds the bullet was significantly smaller than the bore. The
force created when the rifle is fired must be strong enough to cause the bullet to instantly deform. Once some of the metal
has been pressed into the rifling grooves, so that the bullet has essentially shrunken to the width of the bore, the bullet is
spun and stablized as it travels through the barrel. I hope that helps.

Ammonal November 30th, 2003, 03:54 AM


The copy of "Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol" that I have is missing some (about 7 - 10) pages. I am quite
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disgruntled about this because it has halted my "theoretical" construction of the firearm detailed within the book. Has anyone
got a complete copy of this book(Check all the page numbers)? I would greatly appreciate this and I would love to post
pictures of the finished "theoretical" item.

ossassin November 30th, 2003, 01:03 PM


Ammonal, you should find everything you need at this site (http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/book/book.htm) . This
was originally posted by another member, though I don't remember who.

Ammonal December 1st, 2003, 02:28 AM


Ossasin: Unfortunately this is where I originally sourced the book from.
I just picked up the seamless pipe and some bright rod (harder than normal steel, 4130 I think) for the upper receiver and
bolt respectively. I have all but finished polishing the lower receiver and have just got to polish the trigger group and then if I
can get the pages on the bolt and barrel then I should be able to finish the project.

Once I again if anyone has a complete copy of "Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol", could you please direct me to
a source for it please.:confused:

Ammonal December 13th, 2003, 11:03 PM


Has anyone who has a copy of this book willing to upload it and any other books? I have just gotten 150mb of hosted space
and I personally want this book, and it seems that there is members that would appreciate some http storage for files of a
similar nature.

xyz December 14th, 2003, 07:16 AM


Ammonal, all 6 of the Home Workshop Firearms books are on the FTP, along with the Home Workshop Firearms video.

Another 9 posts and you can apply for access.

Ammonal December 14th, 2003, 08:03 AM


Thanks XYZ, I had not seen it written anywhere that there was a minimum number of 50 posts to get access to the FTP
instead only it would be considered on the contributions made on the E&W forums.

xyz December 15th, 2003, 06:01 AM


I have seen it somewhere but I can't remember where, IIRC it also said that members with less than 50 will be accepted under
special circumstances.

FragmentedSanity December 15th, 2003, 04:59 PM


From memory the 50 post minimum was a guideline set out by Ctrl_C way back when he first set up the FTP, aimed mostly at
keeping people who had just signed up from pestering him. From memory the idea was that once a newbie had survived 50
posts they probably had a fair idea of how things work here, had contributed something to the community and could
appreciate the fact that FTP access is a MAJOR privelage.
As with all else here tho - sheer volume of post was never the determining factor - just a helpful guideline. Quality
contributions is the way to go about getting access. If you feel youve contributed it cant hurt to go through the application
procedure. Its ultimatley up to Chemwarrior to decide if your found worthy. Remember you can upload to the FTP even without
an account, which is of course a nice way of contributing.

TreverSlyFox December 16th, 2003, 10:09 AM


First lets dispell a myth. Smooth bore weapons can be accurate, are accurate, have been accurate for over 500 years. Granted
a rifled barrel will be more accurate than a smooth bore if all else is equal.

The Brown Bess of 1776 was a .75 caliber smooth bore musket that was accurate to between 75 - 100 yards. This was the
weapon that armed the British Forces which at the time was the worlds Super Power and had not been defeated. All that is
really required for an accurate smooth bore is that the bullet must be a tight fit in the barrel. Thats why in a muzzel loader you
use either a "patched" round ball or an expanding base bullet.

Most smooth bore shot guns will fire a slug accurately out to 75 yards and in fact most will group in 6" at 75 yards. That's
because shot gun slugs are designed with an expanding base. If you want an accurate smooth bore .22LR Zip Gun then just
use a barrel that is 1-2 thousandths SMALLER than the bullet itself (the bullet not the cartrage). I have made several .22LR
zip guns in my misspent youth that would group 6" at 25 yards that were smooth bores. Granted that's not the 2-3" accuracy
of a modern rifled hand gun but it's well within Center-of-Mass on a man size target at 25 yards.

If you can find a rifled barrel for your zip gun fine, if not just find a smooth bore barrel that's a tight fit for the bullet and your
still good to go. Easiest way to tell if it will work is to see if you can force the bullet down the barrel with just your thumb. If it
goes in with strong thumb pressure alone and shaves a small ring of lead off the bullet it should be fine.

Just an FYI: Most Police street shootings are at less the 7 yards (21 feet) with 3 rounds fired in 6 seconds.

smokepole December 16th, 2003, 03:53 PM


I am a newbie and just want to know if anyone has built the 9mm from the Expedient homemade firearms book. It just
arrived last night (hooray!) and was wondering if there was anything I should be aware of?

Jacks Complete December 16th, 2003, 08:12 PM


smokepole,
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I have that book, bought as a vote for Luty, and against oppression.

The design is superb. I have looked carefully, and see no flaws in it.

An interesting project would be to turn it into a CAD model... Something to do if I ever get off these boards, perhaps!

thepyrolooz December 18th, 2003, 04:24 PM


Steyr would you please make the books you got to a zip file, and upload it. You could always just host it on www.tripod.com
Myself and i'm sure others also are interested in these books!

smokepole December 22nd, 2003, 12:55 AM


I hope I am not speaking out of turn here, but does anyone know where to buy a 1:50 tapered reamer that isnt a fortune? or
are there other alternatives? Thanks for listening to a newbie's rants.

steyr December 22nd, 2003, 07:35 AM


Yeah, I can, but they are... hmmm... howto's? They are very short, so they aren't books. I'm going to post it in the minutes.
EDIT:
Thing that I want to post is WHITE RESISTANCE MANUAL, and there's more survival how to's (weapons caching, poisons)

steyr December 22nd, 2003, 08:55 AM


There it is:
steyrphotos.tripod.com/index.html

Blackhawk December 22nd, 2003, 07:20 PM


Your link dosn't work for me, even when I copy/paste the shortcut in :S

steyr December 22nd, 2003, 08:13 PM


Uhhh
Please Note: You are no longer an authorized member of Tripod. You have been removed because your web site violated our
Terms of Service or you chose to self-delete.
Strange...

Ammonal December 23rd, 2003, 01:36 AM


I have a copy and can upload it in a couple of hours if anyone shows interest

jonesy January 9th, 2004, 04:50 AM


On the subject of plans of any nature i have a copy of most of the home workshop books and so forth but i am unable to print
them, due to the light scaning of the text and images, reading of the computer is a pain in the neck. iv tried to make the pdf
files more darker but have not sucedded. has anyone sucesfuly printed any of these plans???
i posted this before over a week ago but it didnt apear in the thread, so I've retried.
thanks

xyz January 9th, 2004, 10:06 PM


Ammonal, upload that please.

Any E&W related files, warez, etc. are all welcome on the FTP, pretty much anything except for porn and music.

Voyager January 10th, 2004, 12:15 AM


Steyr:

I hate be negative, but... the WRM is just crap stolen from other places, edited poorly, and cobbled together. It's crap.

And, because Aquilifer uploads it under dozens of different names, I've download that accursed document several dozen
times. It's a scourge of the P2P networks.

Ammonal January 10th, 2004, 01:49 AM


The file that steyr had on his website is just a copy of the White resistance manual V2.4 which I noticed is on the FTP, cant
remember whether it was in E&W or uploads, but either way it will end up in E&W so... I wont bother adding another copy of
something which IMO is a pretty ordinary manual and vague in most departments.

Miller January 10th, 2004, 09:07 PM


I drew up these simple plans for a wrist mounted cross bow. I hope the fact that I did them in paint won't be a stumbling block
to most people (I couldn't get acsess to a CAD program). Well I don't know how the picture shows up but if one cant figure
them out, i will try to post further details.

---------------------
Image removed. Please make it smaller and attach it again.
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Rhadon

Ammonal January 11th, 2004, 07:35 AM


Can the image in the previous post be edited so that it does not stretch the window please! It is very pleasing to see peoples
new and wonderful concepts and creations but it just isnt any good when it stretches the text off the screen and the page has
to be scrolled across to be read.

Miller January 11th, 2004, 07:48 PM


I am sorry about the size of the last image, I hope this is image works better. Like I said I will try to get my hands on a CAD
program, this more advanced drawing will include three views and all the dimensions, as well as some ideas that were
imposible to express with paint.

smokepole January 13th, 2004, 11:58 AM


I have a small .22 cal derringer that I have drawn in Visio (sorry no cad program yet) but I don't know how to post the
images? Would someone please help a newbie.

Rhadon January 13th, 2004, 12:18 PM


Click the "New Reply" button and attach the image.

akinrog January 13th, 2004, 02:06 PM


Hi,
I am a newbie and I have 2 of the homemade firearms books. But I am dire need of the other 4 books you specified. I have
made some small contributions but I don't know whether or not they are worthy of being granted access to FTP. Can someone
put it on Overnet P2P network or give me a clue to how to get them. I am living in a very oppressive and restricted country
where even having knowledge of "dangerous" information may make you a terrorist to be prosecuted. So I cannot purchase
them directly.
Any help is greatly appreciated.

Regards

smokepole January 13th, 2004, 04:19 PM


Here is a set of plans I am working on for a .22 cal derringer derrived from a German pinfire gun Its in visio, because I do not
have a cad program right now, and its a lot better than paint.

---------------------------

Sorry, but 250 kB for two visio files (which 100 people will download an 2 will be able to open) is inacceptable. You can either
upload it to your own webspace and link it or upload a (preferrably smaller) file in a more common format (like PDF, WMF,
GIF, JPEG...).

Rhadon

smokepole January 13th, 2004, 06:49 PM


Sorry about the size of the visio files here they are in wmf format until I get my site up and running.:o

Miller January 19th, 2004, 01:02 AM


Is the MAC10 a gun that would be plausible to make at home? I have only ever heard vague references to them, and they
never seem to be directly addressed. If plans of this weapon are available on the internet, I would be thankful for the URL.
Thank you.

smokepole January 19th, 2004, 07:11 PM


Miller

try www.biggerhammer.net they have a vast number of blueprints that you can download in PDF format.

smokepole January 22nd, 2004, 02:49 PM


I was wondering if any of you have seen blueprints for a Kolibri 2.7 mm miniature pistol from the 1930's?

ossassin January 23rd, 2004, 10:03 AM


The MAC-10 probably won't be too easy to make. I'd recommend something like a Sten Mk II. It should be easier to make on
your own than most guns, or you can buy a parts kit and an 80%-finished receiver.

Dave the Rave January 23rd, 2004, 10:20 AM


A Mac10 is perfectly made by home. In fact, it is the main weapon on street gangs arsenal at my Country. One time the
black & white seized about 200 guns at an clandestine factory.

Here they made it with comercial avaliable steel plates, cut and welded with an regular arc welder. Even the magazine is made
this way.
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You can find an reliable pdf blueprint at http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/survival-lib/firearms-pyro.html

look at m11 blueprints.

Miller January 23rd, 2004, 08:55 PM


Umm... I didn't see anythiny pertaining to the Mac10 or m11 blueprints. Maybe you could elaborate on where to find these
plans? And I would also be interested in hearing more about the guns that you all manufacture.

ossassin January 24th, 2004, 07:29 PM


Miller, it's called "Building the M11-9 Handbook - Pictures." I'd be very interested in building one, but I don't have that
machinery. How hard would it be to make, and would I need anything big like a lathe or a milling machine?

xyz January 24th, 2004, 07:47 PM


I would say that you would need a lathe (or access to one) to turn down the barrel and chamber it. A milling machine would
probably be needed (or accessed) for making the forming dies for bending the various sheet metal parts into shape.

If you want a simple SMG design then have a look at "Expedient Homemade Firearms - The 9mm Submachinegun" by PA
Luty. It needs only a drill, angle grinder, and simple hand tools. The downside is that it is smoothbore so accuracy isn't the
best, but from what I've heard about the Mac-10 and Mac-11, this shouldn't be a problem :p .

ossassin January 24th, 2004, 08:22 PM


Is that on the FTP? I've applied for access, and I'm still waiting for a response.

Jacks Complete January 25th, 2004, 05:13 PM


Groan,

guys, please. The two rounds, 5.56mm NATO, and .223 Remington (not Winchester!), are, effectively interchangable. However,
the military spec. 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure than the SAMMI spec for .223. This, combined with other slight
differences in the specs, means that 5.56mm NATO spec rounds will sometimes cause problems in tightly specified match .223
Win rifles. Go search around on one of the target rifle forums, and you will find reams about this.

The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers'


Institute (SAAMI) warns against using military
5.56mm NATO ammunition in sporting rifles chambered
for the .223 Remington unless the manufacturer of
the arm has been consulted. Apparently there has
been significant variations in chamber dimensions
used by some makers, and it is possible that
excessively high chamber pressures could result.
It should also be noted that the military 55-gr.
M193 Ball cartridge may not stabilize with faster
than a 1-in-9" rifling twist.

As a second, and cautionary, tale, NEVER assume that any round will be the diameter of the name! Even some modern rounds
are not the metric value of the name, and almost all imperial named cartridges are not what it said on the tin!

.38 Special and .357 Magnum are actually the same physical size of lead bullet (.357"), as is .44 (Rem) Magnum and .44
(S&W) Special. The nominal diameter of them are not the same as the name, as they are both .43"! Sometimes the distance
is taken across the lands of the rifling, sometimes from land to valley, or valley to valley, sometimes across the case outer
edge, and sometimes it is purely historical reasons! The 6mm Flobert-Rundkugeln (Flobert cap) is so named because it is
5.58mm in diameter, is nominally .22" in diameter, but, is 6mm long, but, in fact, it is 6.18mm long!!

Many examples can be found by looking on Ammoguide (http://www.ammoguide.com). The quote above shows that even
manufacturers get it wrong!! Take care, too, as Ammoguide may not be perfect either... Once you decide, go and look at
various reloading sites, as they often discuss the different types and sizes of bullets.

The good news is, as long as the bullet isn't hard (i.e. lead!) and the pressure doesn't blow your gun to bits, you can stuff
whatever size (within reason) you like down it.

A common "gangsta" twat gun here is a Brocock conversion (an air pistol, now as illegal as a machine gun!) which cuts nearly
half the bullet off as it goes from the cylinder to the barrel! Hence people catching the bullets with two hands...

flamingfrog January 25th, 2004, 06:20 PM


there are detailed sten mkII plans at this site

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instructions.pdf

xyz January 25th, 2004, 07:56 PM


Ossassin, yes, it's on the FTP under several different names. The two that I can remember are "Expedient Homemade
Firearms - The 9mm Submachinegun" and "Ehf9mmsmg".

Jack's Complete, Interesting about a .22 bullet being fired in a .177 air pistol barrel. Probably some of the pressure gets
releived as gas escapes from the gap between the cylinder and barrel.

Dave the Rave January 26th, 2004, 10:46 AM


The mac 10/11 isnt hard to build. Sure you will need an lathe and an milling machine, but you can hire an machinist to do it
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for you.

The barrels are not a problem, you can purchase it at any parts dealer, then cut it down the size you want, crown it with an
dreamell and make the adjustments needed with common tools. If you wishes to make your own barrel, then you must find
the proper shaft, cut it, take it to your machinist and ask him to drill it the proper diameter. tempering, crowning and
adjustments are accomplished at home.

I dont bore with rifling an smg barrel, it wont be much precise anyway !

About the forming dies, you have two options, make all the plain parts with steel plates, cut and welded together or ask your
machinist to make the dies, wich you will use to make smgs to all your family and friends. It wont be a problem either, cause
teh dies dont rise any supicion, even on the king of the clever machinists.

ossassin January 26th, 2004, 09:21 PM


This is pretty unrelated, but if you don't get any response after applying for FTP access twice, can you assume that you've
been rejected? Should I try again? Would someone mind posting that book someplace where I can access it? Thanks.

Blackhawk January 26th, 2004, 09:49 PM


On that note I aplied over a week ago, has my form, been lost or is chemwarrior just away/swamped atm. (sorry for being so
OT but I thought it would be better adding to this OT rather than starting yet another wartercooler thread, or modifying one of
the FTP threads)

Voyager January 26th, 2004, 11:04 PM


Anyone have reasonably good plans for a slam-fire shotgun?

I want to build one with the following limitations: It must be built only from parts available at Home Depot and utilizing no
power tools.

(Note: I have power tools and quite a few firearms, this is for a "project".)

smokepole January 29th, 2004, 07:51 PM


Here is a pdf that i pulled from the White Resistance Manual (don't agree with their ideals, but I like looking at the pretty
pictures):D

smokepole January 30th, 2004, 02:11 PM


Here is another detailed drawing of a simple .22 caliber twist barrel derringer. Sorry that I don't have any pics but I am still
gathering materials.

Beethoven_1983 February 1st, 2004, 10:29 AM


I've seen some nifty airrifles at pyramydair.com, its a precharged pneumatic airrifle...DAMN! I want one of those...If you check
it out, you'll find sniperrifles in almost every caliber known to man. I found this .50 cal. rifle there,,,*bliss* http://
pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=486

Beethoven_1983 February 1st, 2004, 10:37 AM


Does anyone feel a sudden urge to make this kind of airrifle themselves in some kind of twisted dream? I've started to make
some calculations, and the airrifle at pyramydair.com has a chamber that can keep a pressure up to 12 bar, and fire a .50
caliber slug (They got all kind of ammo too; Hollow-point, dumdum, round-nose and tip-pointed, sharp projectiles) and the
velocity of firing are close up to 12-1300 f\s.
I can imagine some of you got some ideas to share,,,hehe

Jacks Complete February 1st, 2004, 05:31 PM


xyz,

the Brococks are mostly .22, but the round goes in at an angle due to the firing pin being central, and the .22 rinfire being,
well, a rimfire. It's a revolver, so they don't always line up perfectly to begin with, either. You get shite coming out sideways,
basically!

ossassin February 4th, 2004, 08:15 AM


I just got Expedient Homemade Firearms: 9mm Submachinegun (Vol I), Home Workshop Firearms: 9mm Machine Pistol (Vol
II), More Workbench Silencers, The Silencer Cookbook: .22 Rimfire Silencers, and, of course, Mein Kampf. Are these on the
FTP? If not, I'll upload them.

EDIT:
By the way, The 9mm SMG (Vol I) does not requre machining tools. It looks pretty simple.

jelly February 4th, 2004, 12:29 PM


Are these on the FTP? If not, I'll upload them.
Yes, all books you have mentioned are on the FTP.

There are 3 main sources of all the PDF's floating around on the internet:

1. The FTP (and the forumites who have scanned in all the nice books)
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2. The old Swedish Infomania site
3. The Aquilifer site (with the "Homemade Firearms..." stuff written by Bill Holmes)

If you want to contribute books to TheForum, buy or borrow E&W related books and create your own PDF's.

ossassin February 4th, 2004, 06:30 PM


It looks like I won't be given any chances, anyway. Thanks for the info, though.

jelly February 4th, 2004, 09:29 PM


What's the problem? Since you are living in the USA, you should find all of the nice "Paladin Press" and "Loompanics
Unlimited" stuff at local bookstores.

If you don't want to buy or borrow books or if you don't have a scanner, then do this:

- grab one of the pocket-sized mini-DV camcorders with a good wide-angle lens
- go to a local bookstore and grab an interesting E&W related book
- turn on the camcorder and then leaf through the book... in a distance of about 1 feet from the lens.
This will just take 1-2 minutes per book (~ 30 books fit on a single miniDV cassette :)).
- go home and import the film into a video program like Adobe Premiere or Ulead Media Studio Pro
- export all pages of the book as .jpg files (bitmaps)
- load the bitmaps into Adobe Photoshop and rotate, scale, crop and save them
- load the bitmaps into Adobe Acrobat to create a .PDF file of the book we all are waiting for ;)

A book recorded with a camcorder (mini-DV format: NTSC resolution = 720*480, PAL resolution = 720*576)
is better than nothing.

ossassin February 5th, 2004, 06:25 PM


Is it possible to get a free copy of Photoshop? It's pretty expensive.

zaibatsu February 5th, 2004, 06:59 PM


Its very easy, just go to the warez sites.

ossassin February 10th, 2004, 01:34 AM


I felt that this was the most appropriate place for this question. Where can I get information on making my own drum
magazines? It would help if there was info. on how to adapt them to such weapons as the Expedient Homemade Firearms:
9mm Submachinegun. Thanks.

Also, how hard would it be to convert the design to fire a .45 ACP instead of a 9mm? Since the design is a smoothebore, and
therefore not very accurate, i'd rather have the punch of the .45 than the accuracy and penetration of the 9mm.

Bigfoot February 10th, 2004, 03:51 PM


Since the design is a smoothebore, and therefore not very accurate, i'd rather have the punch of the .45 than the accuracy and
penetration of the 9mm.

Dude, I hope you're not referring to the design in Home Workshop Firearms: 9mm Submachine Gun, because my reading of
the book gives me to understand the preference for a rifled barrel. Unrifled being the ultimate makeshift solution. Author even
shows a method for rifling the homemade barrel. Even I could dope out a way to adapt the method to use a drill bit for a
pattern, and pantograph-type device to amplify movement.

ossassin February 10th, 2004, 11:00 PM


From Expedient Homemade Firearms: 9mm Submachinegun
Making a rifled gun barrel would require, at the very least, a lathe and a rifling machine. Relatively few people own a lathe,
and even fewer own a barrel rifling machine-not to mention the ability to use them. On any firearm that is truly homemade,
the accuracy of the rifled barrel must be compromised for the ease of construction the smoothe-bore version offers. While the
accuracy of the handgun or rifle is important, the machine gun's inherent firepower means accuracy is of secondary
importance. Reliably getting as many bullets to the target as possible is the main consideration.
You may be thinking one of Bill Holmes' other books, the 9mm Machine Pistol.

xyz February 13th, 2004, 05:12 AM


To clear things up,

Expedient Homemade Firearms was written by PA luty, not Bill Holmes. His design is meant for ultimate simplicity and uses a
smoothbore barrel.

The Home Workshop Firearms books are written by Bill Holmes and use rifled barrels, however they require a lathe and milling
machine, unlike Luty's design.

I'm sure that you could use a rifled barrel on Luty's SMG design, but you would require access to lathe to turn the barrel down
and chamber it (And this is assuming a rifled blank is available, which is sometimes isn't).

Luty originally wrote the book for people in the UK, where barrels are a restricted item, people in the US or Australia should be
able to get hold of a rifled barrel for their SMG.

zaibatsu February 13th, 2004, 01:54 PM


This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
This may be slightly more complicated for people without access to the FTP, but there is the PDF of the minuteman SMG
floating about somewhere, which strikes me as a simple .45ACP SMG.

Bigfoot February 13th, 2004, 04:26 PM


To clear things up,

Expedient Homemade Firearms was written by PA luty, not Bill Holmes. His design is meant for ultimate simplicity and uses a
smoothbore barrel.

The Home Workshop Firearms books are written by Bill Holmes and use rifled barrels, however they require a lathe and milling
machine, unlike Luty's design.

Thanks for the correction; my error.

Haven't seen the book by Luty; have read the ones from Holmes, including the Streetsweeper book he wrote.

Thanks again for setting me straight.

An off-topic question for Britons: how much is a "stone" in weight? Pounds or Kg, I don't care.

zaibatsu February 13th, 2004, 06:34 PM


Is the streetsweeper book actually by Holmes? I got it today, and it looks pretty good, I thought it may be by him when I
recognised the photos from the Home Workshop Prototype Firearms. I'm going to upload it to the FTP, as soon as I get this
damn laptop set up.

Btw, 1 stone = 14 pounds.

ossassin February 13th, 2004, 07:40 PM


xyz, my copy says "Bill Holmes." It says that he made the gun in it, because he couldn't use his machining tools. I have the
minuteman book, but it is in pictures (.jpg's). Is there a .pdf out there?

zaibatsu February 13th, 2004, 10:11 PM


The PDF is from some magazine that I think must have published the blueprints in full, and the PDF contains improvements
to the original design. If my memory serves me correctly it was from some American mag called Firepower, or something
similar. I can't remember where I picked it up, probably from a yahoo group or similar, but I think it's on the FTP now.

PHAID February 13th, 2004, 10:16 PM


I think i have that issue, Ill look for it and scan it if you like.

zaibatsu February 14th, 2004, 08:29 AM


There's not much point to scanning that article, as it's already scanned. You could compare it to the copy you have, as yours
will be obviously more accurate, I'll check it and see if any of the diagrams are crappy and need rescanning. However, there
may be other interesting articles in that magazine, so anything around this subject would be very useful.

ossassin February 15th, 2004, 02:57 AM


Would you mind posting it? I still don't have FTP access. Thanks.

zaibatsu February 15th, 2004, 07:10 AM


I'll find some way in a couple of days.

buzzd February 17th, 2004, 03:10 AM


No it's not impossible. I know someone who knows a (illegal) gun dealer. So it's not impossible.
If you don't know anyone you still can get in contact with people at train stations. Maybe you'll just find some guys who are
selling drugs, but for a small fee they will certainly remember someone who sells guns.
If build a gun yourself you still have the problem of getting ammunition. For this you still have to get in contact with criminal
elements.

Ammo is not a problem in the United States. Nobody should have a problem with this, and if they do...

If this person you know really knows this "illegal gun dealer" [more like airsoft dealer], then you won't a have a problem
getting and shipping me a receiver? Packed w/ some metal junk/tools. Label as tool kit on customs, ship to USA. Top dollar
paid. Assuming you're not full of shi7.

Bigfoot February 20th, 2004, 02:08 PM


Btw, 1 stone = 14 pounds.

Danke.

As for authorship, word usage and sentence structure are consistent with Holmes. As are his preferred methods, editorial
comments. Either Holmes or a poser.
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zaibatsu February 20th, 2004, 10:23 PM


Yes, it's completely Bill Holmes, just had to look a little harder. Interesting he didn't think of using brass cased shotgun shells
for his shotgun, I assume they'd make extraction easier. I know .410 shotgun cartridges can be made from .303 brass, with
the neck anealed and blown out to full diameter.

xperk March 3rd, 2004, 01:08 PM


Hi,

Due to may country of residence having insane gun-laws - I have been looking at the different methods for rifling a
homemade barrel, and discovered some of the problems involved.

Judging from the Brocock conversions firing a .22 shell from a .22 airgun is at least possible (Mind you that the Brocock
conversion used hardened steel inserts to strengthen the chamber).

I have been unable to find any discussion of the airgun topic on the forum so here goes:
is it possible to take a .22 airgun barrel and use a seamless hardened steel tube on the outside of the barrel as a sleeve?
Not only would the availability of suitable tubes with sufficient wall thickness be easier than finding a 5.5 mm. tube of the right
proportions. The airgun barrel OD would be easy to downsize to fit a tube - than drilling a hole through a steel rod... both
requiring a lathe though...

I guess the wear on the airgun barrel would be higher than normal, but the availability and low pricing of airguns should partly
make up for that.

This could result in a sort of 'inverted Brocock' design, that had the benefit of a safe and precise rifled barrel.

leoncristobal March 3rd, 2004, 07:15 PM


could not locate the site at angelfire. it said check the url.
:confused:
Here are some books that can help you:

Zips Pipes And Pens - J. David Truby - 20 Mb

E x p e d i e n t Homema de Firearms 9mm Submachinegun 30 MB

Home Workshop Guns - 9mm Machine Pistol 34 MB

Home Workshop Prototype Firea rms 45MB

Home Workshop Firearms - Two P istol Designs 4 MB

Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol 5 MB

The .22 Machine and the two pistols designs you can download at:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/book.htm

The others were too big to put in the ftp.

These homemade guns can be very dangerous. The picture below shows an accident with a pen gun:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/accident.jpg

Jacks Complete March 4th, 2004, 05:24 AM


leoncristobal,

to ensure a long and happy stay here, try not to post one line with a 20 line quote!

Aside from that, welcome to the forums.

xperk March 5th, 2004, 01:21 PM


Searching a Police site (yes) I came across some interesting pictures of what appears to be a confiscated improvised keychain-
like gun.

As you can see in the pictures (ruler indication in cm. by the way) it is of quite simple construction.
Picture 1 depicts the gadget dissambled - the barrel doubles at the guns breech by sliding in place over a pair of rails. The
center button on picture 2 most likely is the locking mechanism by inserting a pin in the center hole.

As you can see in picture two each barrel has a trigger, the gun is probably cocked by the big ring connected to the pin.

Obviously the design isn't aimed at any target range i have ever encountered.
It looks like .22 short to me - but I could be wrong..

I have never seen this design before, so if anyone could enlighten me on the innovative use of laminated steel for the
barrel...

btw. smokers should probably not carry this gun and a zippo at the same time - in each instance a mistake could prove
embarrassing :-)

nbk2000 March 6th, 2004, 02:42 AM


This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Unless the site specifically says it was made of laminated steel plate, I'd think the "plates" are actually just machining marks
that haven't been polished out.

Also, it's customary here, when referring to a something found on a site somewhere else, to provide a link to it so others can
see it as well.

Leon....sloppy, sloppy, sloppy! :mad:

You simply provide the URL, not the whole post it was in, as we don't need all the rest of it to figure out that the site is 404'd,
meaning no longer around, eh?

In fact, why didn't you just say "The URL Garbage provided is 404'd". That provides all the information we needed from your
post, only in one short sentence, instead of an entire quoted post.

In double fact, that's a rule violation too, though it earns you a few days ban, rather than permanent, like I usually do,
because I'm in a good mood tonight. :)

xperk March 6th, 2004, 04:19 AM


nbk2000,

sorry for the lack of url, I have had the pics for some time, and they have now vanished from the cop site.

I am not too sure about the machining marks though - they seem to be patterned to the width of the supposed laminated stel
plate. Also the pattern seems the continue on the inside of the barrel at the same rate as the outside.

On the other hand - as previously mentioned - I don't see how they could have assembled the plates to sustain a discharge.

jelly March 6th, 2004, 10:30 AM


xperk:

The keychain gun was produced in the 90s in Bulgaria, sold for just 20 dollars and occasionally confiscated at European
airports.

xperk March 6th, 2004, 12:20 PM


jelly,

thanks, looks like you're right!


only according to this site, they didn't actually sell them at airports :-)

http://powayusd.sdcoe.k12.ca.us/online/usonline/worddoc/weapons.htm

and .32 caliber .. hmmm

jelly March 6th, 2004, 12:41 PM


xperk: Yeah, confiscated at European airports... not sold. My english isn't the best :)

quabillion March 12th, 2004, 10:12 AM


xyz

I ask because if the barrel was 5.56mm as soon as it started, then wouldn't you be unable to chamber the round?.

This is true, you would have great diffculty chambering the round. That is why commercial rifiles have what is called a "throat".
This throat is just after the chamber but before the rifileing begins. This allows the round to be easly chambered, also it is
safer because the ammount of force that would be needed to push the lead bullet into the rifileing could easly deform the rim,
causing the not quite chambered round to explode. In a zip gun application you usually would not have this as a problem,(no
rifileing) however if you are making a rifiled barrell, then you should have no problem at all putting a throat in also.

tdog49 May 29th, 2004, 04:53 PM


another option instaed of making the whole thing at home is to obtain receiver plans (biggerhammer.net or elsewhere) and
craft the reciever at home. this could be done w/ many different weapons however I like the mac 10 as it is a simple cut and
weld and heat treat job. Well it is if you know how to weld anyway... then you can buy parts kits from "Shotgun News" or on the
web at places like this...www.rpbusa.com

since the reciever is what is tracked by the BATF, you can make a smg or semiauto w/o any paperwork by doing it this way.

shadow2501 May 30th, 2004, 06:12 PM


another of those mac-10 parts selling should be http://www.ftfindustries.com ,selling all parts but the receiver,since smg are
hard to obtain in europe did anyone here could have ordered something from this site or have heard about someone that had
big troubles because of that?

guerrero August 23rd, 2004, 02:48 AM


As for weapons plans: Since a lot of time Iv benn looking vor the plans of Sardaukar Press like buckler, boltgun, cane gun
etc. I refer to scanned detailled plans with dimensions. Can I find such plans on the FTP or anywho has theese plans?
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steelhead August 23rd, 2004, 05:35 AM
Take a look on ftp://204.210.178.18/ there are some nice construction plans of a stengun there, the drawings are in autocad
format.

(DON'T INCLUDE YOUR ENTIRE PUBLIC KEY AT THE END OF EACH POST, PROVIDE A LINK INSTEAD! - KINGSPAZ)

raptor1956 August 25th, 2004, 07:54 PM


I wonder how hard it would be to integrate a silencer into the barrel design. Many models of guns do this, but I don't know how
the mechanics would work. Does anybody know anything about that?

Not all that hard, drill a series of holes down the last 1/4 or so of the barrel, re-polish the bore, & wrap it in steel wool. slide a
tube over the outside, fit some baffles, & screw on an endcap. That's it in a nutshell. Check out weapons like Delisle's
commando carbine for details.

alf August 26th, 2004, 06:30 PM


I have benn looking for Sardaukar Press' plans too.
Anybody knows about it? Their designs look very professional and well made

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > m16 dimensions? - Archive File

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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 09:03 PM


godjack
A new voice
Posts: 2
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 14, 2001 11:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
does anybody have the blueprints for an m16 or the plans to convert an ar15 to m16 specs? how much to mill? where to cut, etc..?

The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 12:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you don't have to cut anything if you have a pre-ban, post ban I'm not sure. You can purchase drop in full auto parts for AR-15's. <a href="http://www.tapco.com"
target="_blank">www.tapco.com</a> or <a href="http://www.cheaperthandirt.com" target="_blank">www.cheaperthandirt.com</a> both used to carry some parts you
could probably find the rest at a gunshow. Nothing is NFA until you possess all the parts to make the weapon full auto or have already converted it.

godjack
A new voice
Posts: 2
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 22, 2001 12:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the sear looks way too wide to possibly fit in an ar15 lower. is it just me?

Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
From: I'm everywhere.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 22, 2001 09:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just uploaded the conversion plans.
Go here: <a href="http://metalsstuff.homestead.com" target="_blank">http://metalsstuff.homestead.com</a>
I would give credit to whoever scanned it in, but I dont remember where I got it.

------------------
Knowledge Is Our Greatest Defense Against Their Ignorance

stickfigure March 19th, 2003, 09:21 AM


Three ways to convert an AR-15 are:

1.) Install all M-16 Parts which requires drilling an extra hole above the trigger group for the auto Sear. Drilling jigs are availible and easy to use.

2.) Install all M-16 Parts except auto sear and use a drop-in auto sear. Plans are on the net.

3.) Install a drop-in lightning link that requires no mods. or drilling and can be made out of scrap metal. Although it will were out overtime.

Also it is considered an NFA item if a person only has one part and an AR-15. One year, $10,000 fine, hard to remove but highly reliable. The Lightning link is easy to remove
but can become problematic and wear out. But it is easy to get rid of!

Plans are on the net for the lightning link at:


<a href="http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/ar15upgrade.htm" target="_blank">http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/ar15upgrade.htm</a>

Some good info about it, has some really good pics!:
<a href="http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html" target="_blank">http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html</a>

I think of all the options the link is the cheapest.

zaibatsu March 19th, 2003, 08:37 PM


I found a very well written document on the "Lightning Link" which I'll upload to the FTP when its back online.

I_am_the_Black_one April 7th, 2003, 02:34 AM


The other Night I had ahh Perplexing Dream

I dreamed that I lived in Australia and that any gun that dos'nt hav a cork stuffed in the end was illegal I dreamed that i wanted 2 buy a Mill and make a decent Semi/Full Auto
gun capable of combat In my dream I thought to make a m11/9 or a Sten But my dream self conceved the problem that they are only close quarters weapons And that i would
need Something with more range say a Battle rife I dreamed that i knew some one in the US that was willing to send me used cartidges

Im not sure this is the place to post my *Dream* but any help would be appreciated

Anthony April 8th, 2003, 04:20 PM


No one will send you used cartridges or anything else, anyone here could be a cop and you being a newbie makes people a lot more weary.

Plus you can get cartridges in your own country, if you think about where you need to look...

I wouldn't say this was the correct place for your post. Frankly I don't think such a poorly concieved and constructed post should have been made at all.

You really need to put more thought into your ideas.

zaibatsu April 8th, 2003, 06:52 PM


Semi/full auto MBR? Doubt you'd be able to do it - the gas systems are pretty complex really, you'd need a rifle to copy each component from, unlike simple blowback SMGs
that you can do with trial and error. Now, a falling-block rifle action, that's perfectly possible with a mill - you'd be able to make everything but the barrel. I have some plans
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(from a book I actually bought! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ) but they are very technical, and the action would require heat-treating (commercial)
for safety I think. But, having said that, all MBR actions would due to the high pressure carts. My scanner is fucked or else I'd scan it, however and UK mods who want to
volunteer...

blacktalon April 9th, 2003, 11:11 PM


:-) Why not just build yourself up a rifle? Step #1, go to a gun show and buy yourself a m16 complete parts kit. This will give you every piece you need except for a stripped
lower receiver. (The controlled piece) Then go to <a href="http://www.tanneryshop.com/" target="_blank">http://www.tanneryshop.com/</a> and order yourself an 80%
AR lower for $80. All the hard work is done for you. All you need at this point is a drilling jig and a hand drill. Then order yourself one of their jigs. <a href="http://
www.tanneryshop.com/files/drilljig1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.tanneryshop.com/files/drilljig1.jpg</a>
You can get the jig, all the bits, and the large tap you need for threading the back of the receiver for the buffer tube for around $300. <a href="http://www.tanneryshop.com/
files/MVC_010S.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.tanneryshop.com/files/MVC_010S.JPG</a> You can even get a jig with with extra "devil hole" for drilling the hole for the
auto sear which is the main difference between a semi and full auto AR. If you assemble a semi-auto ar with an m16 fire controll group, it will remain semi auto. It needs the
auto sear which requires another hole.

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: blacktalon ]</small>

zaibatsu April 10th, 2003, 10:44 AM


If you are referring to the person from AU then they cannot buy an 80% reciever, parts kit, upper etc. If only we could over here, I'd have made lots of them by now! Is there
not something against using any M16 fire-control parts in an AR15? Doesn't make sense but that seems to be what the BATFE are all about.

zaibatsu April 12th, 2003, 05:20 PM


Apologies for the wait, I've converted the document to .pdf, its about 200kb and uploaded to the SensoryStatic FTP.

Enjoy :)

I_am_the_Black_one April 14th, 2003, 01:56 PM


You guys dont know much about aus do you..

You cant get smg cases over here or anything that will fire in a auto

Also I mate of mine in the US Is sending my cases and has made a m11/9 he made the barrel from from i think HE DOM (drawn over madrel) it works fine I have lots of time
on my hands and am a profichent Machinest (Tho my spelling leaves a bit to be desired ) so I think I could perfect a gas system. The reason I was dreaming of this is that in
aus you cannot hav basicly anything but a lil gun with a cork in the end

Edit: About the barrel He did this with a small lathe and a few home made mods I any one is interested I can wip up a DIY guide to making a M11/9 in 9mm

zaibatsu April 14th, 2003, 02:23 PM


so you can't get 9mm cases? I thought you could get 9mm handguns over there. You can't get .308? or .303? or .223? They're all calibres that have been used in automatic
weapons.

If you had a CNC mill you could manufacture an AR15 upper and lower from scratch - check www.roderuscustom.tzo.com (from memory) and go onto the forums, check the
AR15 section. The problem after that would be manufacturing everything else!

I_am_the_Black_one April 15th, 2003, 03:42 AM


Your wecome to come over ti australia and ask for 9mm smg cases........

How fast can you say ASIAO

Anthony April 15th, 2003, 03:21 PM


Even in silly England we can buy the seperate components of munitions...

Paying a visit to firing ranges can get you spent cartridges. 9mm/8mm blanks can be used as-is with a projectile. Souviner ammo provides 5.56/7.62mm cases and jacketed
bullets.

Or you could even turn some up from brass stock on a lathe...

I_am_the_Black_one April 16th, 2003, 07:26 AM


You can buy Spent Brass over here or Unused but I think you would be in a jail cell if you went seeking SMG brass....

Anthony April 16th, 2003, 02:55 PM


SMGs usually use pistol ammo! 9mm, .45" etc.

I_am_the_Black_one April 22nd, 2003, 08:32 PM


Umm yes officer i was buying 45,000 rounds for........

oh and most run of the mill ammo jams in 9mm smgs unless you have a very nice one you also have to have a firearms licancce over here and i can not get one for 10 years
cause i have two accounts of assult police (I was minding my own bisness and they come up and try to charge me with break and enter no matter that i had just comeback
from holidays and could not hav possably have done it they bashed me up and charge me with Assult police!!)

excuse the spelling im in a hurry

irish April 22nd, 2003, 09:58 PM


With a licence you can buy any small arms ammo in Australia execept tracer rounds.
Without a licence you will find some gun shops will not ask to see one or you can find a shooter and get them to buy your ammo for you.

Also if you go and tell them you want SMG brass or ammo they most likely will ring ASIAO, tell them you want a 200 round case of ex-army 9mm and there will be no
problem.

I_am_the_Black_one April 24th, 2003, 10:11 PM


Ok more on topic I have finnaly located good Blue prints for the AR15/M16 any one interested email me at grantnrussell@yahoo.com.au
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zaibatsu April 25th, 2003, 06:28 AM
Those AR15/M16 blueprints are only for the lower reciever right? If you have some for the upper I'd be very interested. However, the lower prints are everywhere, including the
FTP.

I_am_the_Black_one April 25th, 2003, 08:19 AM


:D Guess what I have Upper and lower Blue prints Il upload soon as I get acess to the FTP

blacktalon April 28th, 2003, 08:25 PM


Hey black one,
Ever shot a sub gun? I have personal experience with one or two, (Mac-10 and 11, Tec-9, Thompson, Sten Mk 2 and 3, CAR-15 9mm, MP5SD and PDW, UZI, Beretta 12S, and
Glock 18's come to me off hand.) and I have never seen much of a problem firing Wolf ammo through them. (Wolf is the cheapest ammo you can buy. $100 for 1000rds of
9mm, 223 or 7.62x39. Absolutely not mil spec.)

If you don't believe that, hop a plane to the US in October and visit Knob Creek machine gun shoot in Kentucky. You can rent machine guns there and they dump cheap ammo
down range all day with few jams.

I_am_the_Black_one April 29th, 2003, 12:27 AM


I have shot a few but The ammo here is crappy thats why im trying to get smg ammo I have heard of a quick fix for ammo feeding you file a small bit of the top of the
chamber

blacktalon April 29th, 2003, 01:20 AM


Close... you file a small rounded trough off the bottom face of the chamber. This is called a feed ramp. :-) In most Mac-11 clones there is a piece of thin metal bent up to act
as one, but they don't always work very well in that they are flat and don't guide the ammo to where it needs to be and you get a lot of stove pipes. (especially in home
made versions) You might try rounding it a bit or welding a better ramp over the flat one. Even better... get yourself an old Colt 1911 barrel and cut the feed ramp off of it and
weld it to the bottom of your barrel. I know a couple of guys that have had success with this method but they had to do a little relief work on the bolt to make it work....

I_am_the_Black_one April 29th, 2003, 01:36 AM


I have always had problems with ammo feeding

That may fix it do you think you could supply a diagram?

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Sten MK III kits -
Archive File

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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 09:09 PM


Aggy
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 44
From :
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 25, 2001 07:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C o u l d a n y o n e t e l l m e if it would be possible to buy a sten mk 3 kit from the US a nd send it to the UK as i understand theres
no license required but does anyone know if this applies to the UK too? Or am i k idding m yself for just asking.

Igenx
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : No Fucking Way
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 26, 2001 12:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know if it's possible to get kits sent to the UK, but they can be bo ught at <a href="http://www.auctionarm s.com "
target="_blank">www.auctiona rm s.com </a>
I also suggest that you find a Mk. 2 instead of Mk. 3 kit. They a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e m uch easier to put toge ther. I have a Mk. 3
and I can see why- the shroud is a pain in the ass to weld to the barrel.

Aggy
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 44
From :
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 26, 2001 11:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the link.

blacktalon April 9th, 2003, 11:31 PM


It certainly could be done. It could not however, but done legally. To send firearm s parts out of the US you must ha v e a n
exporters license. Th e UK is not currently impo rting the kits, so it isn't going to happen. If you had a really good friend,
however, you m ay be able to get him to throw the parts kit in with a bunch of scrap m etal and get it through custom s like that.
It isn't worth it thought. MK IIIs aren't worth the $65 they cost. If you HAVE to get a Sten (which are all shit) get a MK-II.

Side note, it is kind o f ironic that you want to buy one in the US and ship it to the UK. They were originally m ade in the U K, and
then importe d by the US.

I_am_the_Black_one April 25th, 2003, 12:59 AM


M a c h i n e d p a r t s a m o n gst scrap m etal i highly douht that it would get through custom s

I got M11/9 parts into aus by having a friend send them one by one with a sticker on the frount Stating that they where from
"D.I.Y R obotics" witha fake ad dress So custom s cant identify the single p ieces W ell it work ed for m e:D

----------------------------------------
use punctuation. - kingspaz

blacktalon April 28th, 2003, 08:05 PM


Now let m e g et this strait. You are telling me that you sm u g g l e d a C o b r a y M a c - 1 1 9 m m in to Australia piece by piece, and
y o u w e r e a b l e t o d o s o b e c a u s e C u s t o m s c o u l d n t identify the individual pieces . N o o f f e n s e , b u t t h i s s o u n d s l i k e s e c o n d p o s t
bull shit to m e . I d o n t care how stupid you r custom s worker is, a ba r r e l l o o k s l i k e a b a r r e l . T h e u p p e r r e c e i v e r o f a M a c 1 1
look s l i k e t h e u p p e r h a l f o f a s u b g u n . T h e l o w e r h a l f l o o k s l i k e the lower half o f a s u b g u n . I t s o n ly two m ajor parts! Give
m e a break! Robotics parts dont need ejection ports.
http://www.nighthawkfirearm s.com /0d447580.jpg C ount them for yourself.
http://www.nighthawkfirearm s.com /0ffbb860.jpg
http://www.nighthawkfirearm s.com / 1 3 4 5 3 b 2 0 . j p g

Now, as for m achined pa rts p a s s ing am o n g s t s c r a p m e t a l . H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n a S t e n M K I I I ? They look lik e scrap m etal
anyway. The art to the whole ordeal is getting custom s not to rum mage around in your scrap. The original poster only wanted
a kit so there is no tell tail receiver to worry about. Just throw the other goodies in som e n i c e s h a r p o d d s a n d e n d s a n d n o
one would ever be the wiser. Another good idea is to m ake sure there is a lot of grease and other industria l s l u d g e m i x e d i n .
T h o s e l o s e r s d o n t want to get their ha n d s dirty. If all else fails, you could sm uggle it in, i n a 3 5 g a l l o n s t e e l d r u m f u l l o f u s e d
oil that is nice and black. Mak e s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s a n i c e Toxic m aterial sticker on the outsid e a n d t h e r e i s n o way they will
want to wade around in that shit. http://ebay0.ipixm edia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_f47875cb021d0b73122b81fd e5ac3864/i-1.JPG

I_am_the_Black_one April 29th, 2003, 03:14 AM


No its not second post bullshit I had all my posts stripped:(

I m ade the barrel and recivers m y self and i did forget to m ention that they where packed in grease. Lol I know that stens a re
scrap metal I was refering to m y m 11/9 the only thing that I couldent get thru is the grip cause it looks like what it is

I m a d e t h e m a g h o u s i n g , r e c i v e r s a n d e v e n m y own m agizines (It was a battle with the springs :D )


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Anthony April 29th, 2003, 03:43 PM
So why couldn't you h ave m ade all the parts from scrap?

blacktalon April 30th, 2003, 08:56 PM


Y o u m a d e t h e receiver, mag housing, barrel, springs and m a g s ? W hat did you have to "sm uggle" through then? That is 99%
of a Mac 11. All that is left is the bolt and trigger group. If you could m ake a rece iver and barrel, you m ust have everything
n e e d e d t o m ake a trigger group. (I on c e m a d e a crude SMG trigger group out of m ild steel with a grinder and a drill press...)
So, basically you m ust have only imported the bolt. Woo hoo. :rolleyes:

I_am_the_Black_one May 1st, 200 3, 03:30 AM


I got the guts of it through the mail. Minus of corse the fire limiter:D
So how did you do the trigger did you have one to copy off?

zaibatsu May 1st, 200 3, 12:17 PM


H e c o u l d h a v e d e s i g n ed the trigger m e c h a n i s m himself, they aren't difficult.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > ak-47 full auto w/out
select fire conversion

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phyrelord September 17th, 2002, 06:18 PM


I want to make an ak-47 full auto. I searched the forum and only came up with a discussion on a select fire ak but i'm looking
for ways to make an ak full auto completely w/out select fire. just full auto. Any help is greatly appreciated

Whitey September 17th, 2002, 06:29 PM


This isn't exactly what you are looking for but it is fun and legal.
Ever hear of "the bump"? Basically it is a way to simulate full auto rates with out being full auto since the trigger is depressed
for each time the weapon is fired.

Here is a page that gives instructions and a video on "the bump".


<a href="http://hometown.aol.com/bishop042/bump.html" target="_blank">http://hometown.aol.com/bishop042/
bump.html</a>

Zyklon_B September 18th, 2002, 01:14 AM


Go here: <a href="http://secession.tripod.com/southerntradingsblueprintsandreceivers/id2.html" target="_blank">http://
secession.tripod.com/southerntradingsblueprintsandreceivers/id2.html</a>

And buy this:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial,
Helvetica">
47. 60% finished AK-47 Lightning Link. All the mill work and welding is done. You simply cut out one small part with hand tools
or dremmel and fit to your receiver and drop in. Comes with bonded on template and instructions. Will fit all AK Variants. ALL
NFA rules apply! Shipping is $6.00. Price $50.00.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">After you finish the work with a dremel following
all the easy plans they give you, all you have to do is drop it in your AK and you get full-auto and safety only.

When your done you just take it out of your gun. It leaves no marks and does nothing permanent. Also can be switched from
AK to AK.

Nico September 26th, 2002, 08:48 PM


Disclaimer: If you have a friend who has an AK, make sure he never modifies his weapon in this manner. This information is
to help you identify what NOT to do, in order to keep all your friends and acquaintances on the right side of the law.

<img src="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/Nico/aktrick.gif" alt=" - " />

How the semi-auto version of the AK works (follow along with the picture):
- When cocked, the hammer is held back by the hooks on the trigger.
- Pulling the trigger swings the hooks out of the way, causing the hammer to rotate forward and hit the firing pin which stikes
the primer and you're in business (the shin bone's connected to the knee bone, and so forth) :)
- After firing, the bolt slides back, bringing the hammer with it.
- Keeping the trigger pressed keeps the hooks out of the way, but our lovely friend the disconnector remains on duty to hold
that hammer back when the bolt slides forward again.
- Letting go of the trigger releases the disconnector but raises the hooks, so the hammer is still held back, until the trigger is
pulled anew.
- If it wasn't for the disconnector, the hammer would just rotate forward by being carried along with the bolt, slamming into the
firing pin again.
- This process would continue until either a) you release the trigger, or b) you run out of ammo.
- So what to do about the pesky disconnector? Simply tie it off to the cross pin (the safety lever pivots on it) ... this keeps it
out of the way.

Problems with this:


- I have no idea if this even works, not having an AK nor any interest in going to jail.
- This information was garnered from a text file of dubious origin.
- There is no way to fire single shots, unless you are extremely quick at letting go of the trigger. This could be very
dangerous.
- You could waste a lot of ammo with this method.
- A twist-tie is pretty half-assed.
- The hammer may not have as much force being carried forward by the bolt as it would being release by the hammer spring.
Thus, light strikes may occur and rounds may not even fire at all. Perhaps it depends on the ammo, but likely the problem is
because the weapon is not made to operate in this manner.
- Stamped receivers may have trouble handling the barrage of full auto. Blackjack buffers or similar are recommended.
- ***** It's quite illegal, so don't do it. *****

<small>[ September 26, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Nico ]</small>

hodehum September 26th, 2002, 09:34 PM


I also found a way of converting an AK-47 to full auto using a twist tie, also in a text file. you can find it <a href="http://
www.hackcanada.com/ice3/misc/ak47mod.txt" target="_blank">here</a>.

Zyklon_B September 26th, 2002, 11:45 PM


If they couldn't get the caliber and the cartridge right in that above text, what are the chances of it really working?
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hodehum September 27th, 2002, 01:41 AM
Somewhere between zero and shit all

Does anyone have any plans to converting any common/well known rifle to full-auto? esp with firing mechanism similar to that
of a AK-47?

Nico September 27th, 2002, 09:00 PM


Yes, that HackCanada file is the 'file of dubious origin' that I was referring to. I drew the pic as I understood the text file to
mean. But, yes, it seem pretty sketchy.

Here is a pic of the AK-47 version of the Lightning Link:


<img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/aklink.jpg" alt=" - " />
and the associated text:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial,
Helvetica">This is the link for the AK-47, and AKS series of rifles. The curved ends catch notches at the end of the AK hammer,
and hold it back until the link is tripped by the forward movement of the bolt. It is shown approximately twice actual size, and
may be easily inserted, and removed from the weapon. The picture was taken from an add on an Internet web sight where it
was being sold; don't ask me for the address. As there is no serial number on the piece, and the seller in question is not a
class 3 dealer, I can only assume that the device in question is illegal, and being sold illegally. As may be seen, this is simply
a flat piece of spring steel which has been cut and bent to size. It can be produced easily with minimal equipment for a couple
of dollars, and yet I see these bits of prison bait selling for hundreds of dollars.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2"
face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">And here is the site it came from:
<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/semifull.html" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/
semifull.html</a>

EventHorizon September 29th, 2002, 10:23 PM


As I understand it anyone can get full auto AK parts at almost any good gun show as they are not illegal. All that is required is
drilling one hole in the AK receiver (thats what will get you 10 years) and installing the auto bolt and sear and then making an
additional notch between the "safe" position and the fire position. Very easy! The SKS is even simpler. You remove the trigger
assembly and bend a small piece of metal much like in an above post and that fits under the sear preventing it from catching.
With additional modification to make the pins come out easy you have an easy conversion that can be done in literally less
than 2 minutes. Get an SKS that accepts AK mags, whack in a 75 rnd drum and you have one nice little toy to plink with. :p

<small>[ September 29, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: EventHorizon ]</small>

phyrelord September 30th, 2002, 10:24 PM


Does anyone have plans for the lightning link for the AK-47? or can anyone explain better where it goes, or shed any light on
the subject. Does anyone have the milling plans. I would like to take a look at them, for educational purposes of course.

vir sapit qui pauca loquitur October 2nd, 2002, 11:31 AM


damn, why is it that everyone thinks that full-auto gives them an edge? Semi-auto is perfectly good enough, the US marines
have semi and burst-fire (thats what i like) But why do you need full auto on an AK of all the things? :confused: I mean the
recoil of the 7.62x 39 round _is_ lower then the 7.62 NATO (7.62x51) but its still too high to give ANY indication that the
shooter is anything more then an African monkey (they have a fondness for automatic fire)

my advise (and i'm sure that i'll get flamed for it) is that you enjoy the years that you would lose if caught with such a device.
learn to rapid fire with that AK, you can count every round with semi,
so you have full control of when (if!) you run dry.

Remember that you can own semi-auto firearms, us poor British weren't given the choice. We either handed in the hand-guns
or were branded as perverts/children killers. We could have revolted but the general public was wedged so far up blairs ass
that they don't see the future, and they only believe what the papers report on :mad: :mad:

arrggg, my blood pressure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

zaibatsu October 2nd, 2002, 01:35 PM


Full Auto may be a useless option for an assault rifle, BUT I see two reasons for having it. One, it'd be pretty fun. Two, add a
longer, heavier barrel, and a bipod, and you could have a makeshift LMG.

EventHorizon October 2nd, 2002, 02:45 PM


Full auto is fun!!!! Thats why its worth the time if caught.

BUT, as far as hitting anything, unless you've extensivly trained firing full auto, most normal people can't hit jack sh*t. I've
shot my share of fully auto weapons from subguns to a BAR. If its a 7.62NATO or larger...forget controlling it, but a 5.56 or
7.62X39 isn't to bad.

If you want to actually hit something, semi is all you need and if you're looking to inflict major damage, snipe. Read Gunny
Hathcocks book and you'll see what I mean. Its amazing how many targets are still standing after you cut loose with FA spray
and pray.

ossassin November 27th, 2003, 08:33 PM


I would not recommend converting an AK to full-auto. Rather, I would suggest converting it to select-fire. You do not want to
give up the semi-auto mode in most assault rifles. However, seeing as how the AK was designed for full-auto fire, it might not
be such a bad idea. There are better alternatives, though. A select-fire conversion would either need a receiver modification or
some part replacements; either would work.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
damn, why is it that everyone thinks that full-auto gives them an edge? Semi-auto is perfectly good enough, the US marines
have semi and burst-fire (thats what i like)

Full-auto gives one a huge advantage at close ranges. The "burst" feature was used in the M16A2, because after Vietnam,
there was a widespread concern about ammo conservation. However, the military, including the Marines, is slowly going back to
full-auto. The new M4A1's are full auto, and it is considered the standard-issue rifle.

The AK was designed for full-auto fire. It's not a very accurate rifle, but it was made to be reliable and powerful at close range.
If you want an accurate rifle that works well on semi-auto, get an AR-15.

NOTE: The exception to the full-auto rule is someone who has had years of training. Many spec-ops groups double-tap with
semi-auto instead, but most troops can not keep the necessary state of mind and do not have the reflexes.

grandyOse November 27th, 2003, 10:43 PM


I have a mechanical drawing around here somewhere for the MILLED sks autosear. Easily made with shop tools, and probably
easier than trying to bend that sheet steel just right. It I had a way to upload it I would.

I know a guy with one of these modified trigger groups. I've seen him fire off 3 to 5 round groups with pretty good accuracy at
50 yards. Also saw him open up and walk the bullet stream onto target where he could hold it for the duration of the
magazine. This guy is no marksman, either. I can see the advantage.

Barcy November 28th, 2003, 02:04 AM


grandyOse. I am sure there would be a number of parties most interested in the milled sks autosear, if you could find a way
to upload it in the future. Not that us poor Aussies are allowed to own such semi auto firearms anymore. Your discription of its
efficiency beats the demonstration I witnessed many years ago, when a boasting friend insisted he could make his ak/sks full
auto. Without testing them action manually, in went a full magazine and he pulled the trigger. Unfortunitely when he released
the trigger the thing kept firing. Not only did he risk his life and his spectators when he almost dropped it in panic, he did not
hit the body sized target at 25metres once.
So although always interested in learning new things (knowledge is power), if anyone was thinking on how they could modify a
semi to an auto. I am sure they would also be thinking on doing a manual check of the action, by using a firearm with no
magazine or bullets in the chamber pulling back the cocking lever and letting it slide forward on to an empty chamber and
than pull the trigger to see if the firing action clicks forward. Now moving the cocking lever back and forwards hold the trigger in
and listen and/or feel for the click of the firing action. I would personally try these two steps a few times. Once you feel
confident with this I would only load a few rounds into a magazine to test it. If the auto fire seems OK load a few more rounds
till you are certain the auto action responds to the release of the trigger. Test fire by trying to make short burst with your
trigger control.
Not being a wimp when it comes to firearms, but a runaway full auto in another persons hands has already scared the hell out
of me once.

grandyOse November 28th, 2003, 03:38 PM


Barcy, it sounds like the guy turned his firing pin around, or found some other way to make it slamfire. slamfiring is unwise.
Not only can it result in runaway FA as you described, it is hard on the bolt and who knows what else, because the round is
firing before the bolt is fully engaged. You have made a most excellent suggestion about dry firing to make sure the
conversion is working properly.

grandyOse November 28th, 2003, 04:53 PM


I hope this works, I'm not real wonderful at ascii drawing

............................................ NOT TO SCALE


....1/16...I--3/16---I .......... ALL DIMENSIONS INCHES

aprox..../=======I
.14deg./=======I 1/16
.........../========I======================I
........../===============================I......1/16
......../======/=========================I.
....../======/.......1/8
...../======/

....I-- 1/8 - - I--1/8 -I ---------------- 5/8 --------------I

....I----------------------- 7/8 ---------------------------I

...........I=================================I
..1/8...I=================================I
...........I====================I============I
..1/8...........CUT OUT.............7/16.....I============I
...........I====================I============I
..1/8...I=================================I
...........I=================================I

................CODE:

----------------- horizontal measuremnt

I......................................=========== ============
I.....vertical edge...........=========solid steel======
I......................................=========== ============
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..../
.../ slant edge
../

iI've edited several times. I guess that's as good as I can do. Just line up the vertical sides and it should look alright.
everything is right angles except for the steeply angled front (left) side.

grandyOse November 28th, 2003, 06:03 PM


I hate doing stuff half-assed. Let me try again. Mods; delete post counts if you want, I'm not rying to be a whore.

==================================
============.1/8.===================
==================================
.................................=================
............7/16...cut.......=======.1/8.=======...........3/8...width
.................................=================
===================================
============.1/8.====================
===================================
I---------------------.7/8.-------------------------I

I--1/16--I----3/16----I----------5/8----------I.....length.......

.............../////////////////I
..............//////////////////I.........1/16
.............///////////////////I
............///////////////////////////////////////////////////////I
.........../////////////////////////////1/16//////////////////////I
........../////////////////////////////////////////////////////////I.........1/4..depth..
.........//////////////
........//////////////
.......//////////////.............1/8
......//////////////
.....//////////////
....//////////////

...I---1/8---I----1/8----I------------5/8------------I

hope that's better

Voyager January 9th, 2004, 11:13 PM


Screw the AK-47.

The best firarm plans on the net are the AR-15 CAD plans at http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/cad/

http://www.geocities.com/elmgrove1765/project6/project6.html is an excellent description of building an AR-15 receiver.

Mike76251 January 10th, 2004, 02:55 AM


There are a few notes in this thread about using a twist-tie or a nylon zip-tie on a AK's "trigger hook" to render it full auto.
I just took the top cover off one and can see no way for this to work. The claw-like hooks these ties would hold back don't
even hold the trigger. The disconector does in the one I just looked at.
Even if it did work...........the hammer would just follow the bolt and not have near enough energy to activate the primer.
On another important note, never modify a semi into a full auto if the weapon was not designed for it in the first
place............aka SKS...........you can get away with a AK conversion because the weapon was designed for it in the first place.
A SKS can blow it's top cover too easy when rock-n-rolling and it always comes off straight back (with great force) right into
your face.

jackhammer January 10th, 2004, 01:14 PM


A 7.62 round has enough kick WITHOUT the full-auto.Full-auto gives one a huge advantage at close ranges. The "burst"
feature was used in the M16A2, because after Vietnam, there was a widespread concern about ammo conservation. However,
the military, including the Marines, is slowly going back to full-auto. The new M4A1's are full auto, and it is considered the
standard-issue rifle. The Colt Commando (or M4), is chambered for the 5.56 NATO. I've fired fully auto shotguns easier to
control than the AK-47, (although I never got the chance to use the Jackhammer, mostly because it was never really
released), and they are far more deadly at close range. Why not simply use the ak-74, or, as voyager said, convert something
like the AR-15?

ibuprofen January 10th, 2004, 06:46 PM


The method described in Nico's post is dangerous. It may work due to the inertia if you timed it right, but it would be a very
bad idea. What would happen is the bolt would slam the hammer back, and if it worked the bolt would lock closed again
before the hammer made it back to hit the firing pin. If it worked wrong, the hammer could hit the firing pin before the bolt
was closed, firing the cartridge partially out of its chamber (slam-fire) and possibly blowing up the gun, some or all the carts in
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
the loaded magazine, and ruining at least the gun if not your face (a few inches away). Please don't do it. I don't know
enough about the AK to suggest a way that works but I have heard the lightning link works.

lamar pye January 10th, 2004, 10:26 PM


What you guys are talking about is slam firing conversion......its dangerous and it doesnt work. If you pull out the bolt carrier
on your AK have a look at the triangular shaped piece at the back of the carrier, this is what keeps the hammer from hitting
the firing pin when the bolt is out of battery. This piece of metal is probably the only thing keeping you from blowing your
faces off. The proper way to convert any weapon is to build an auto sear that trips the hammer when the bolt is closed and the
carrier is about 3/32 from closing. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is!

tubes February 2nd, 2005, 07:32 PM


I hope this works, I'm not real wonderful at ascii drawing

Hello Forum,

grandyOse, is that ASCII art you posted for an AK-47 auto sear?

Neoknite February 3rd, 2005, 08:38 PM


Alright i am staring at my ak right now and Lamar Pye has a valid point. When the hammer hits the firing pin with the slam fire
conversion the bolt is at the max 1/4 in secure (closed). And this might not be exact cuz i didnt measure it just estimating.
But if you where to weld an additional piece to end of the bolt carrier you would be able to allow the firing pin to be hit later.
This causes 2 problems that i noticed. The hammer might hit the carrier before fully cambering a round losing inertia and
might not fire the round when it is chambered. And this part when the weapon is cocked hits the back of the return spring, so
recoil would be added but probably not enough to notice and it would cause a lot of stress on the weld and might break off.
But this if it does hold should allow a safer slam fire conversion.

ossassin February 6th, 2005, 02:02 AM


The easiest and most secret way to do a full-auto-only conversion seems to be a lightning link. There seems to be a little
confusion regarding the operating principles behind them, so here are a few resources.
http://www.friendshuh.com/llink.html
http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html

Plans for different types of AR-15 LL's are easy to find, the that picture that was posted earlier on this thread was the first I've
ever seen of an AK LL. Does anyone have any information on them at all?

lowjack February 7th, 2005, 08:31 PM


I've never seen anything other than that two pronged AK47 lightning link. I'm almost positive that they were never patented
and sold by any companies as legal RLL's.
Not to say they dont work or that it's not worth a try. But I know quarterbones website helped to turn my AR15 into an M16
easy as pie. The AR lightning link works by tugging the disconnecter back as the bolt closes by a 1/16 of an inch or so. How
does the AK47 incorporate that lightning link? I'm afraid that if that thing worked as well as the AR15's does that it'd be alot
more popular and someone somewhere would have put some info on it on the internet or published a how-to manual, right?

I think buying a drill jig, the full-auto parts and your AK probably already has a FA bolt carrier, and doing it right is the safest
way to rock and roll. But drilling that hole for the autosear is permanent and highly illegal. But hell, it's not like your gonna
offer to let any punk ass cop who might be unfortunate enough to encounter you with your FA AK to come and inspect it now
are you? Better just unload into his patrol car and beat feet while he's sitting there reciting the lords prayer atop a pile of his
now soiled pig pants. Chances are if the cop is caught off gaurd he'll fumble the persuit by trying to get his now freyed nerves
under control. Full-auto 7.62x39 fire isnt something anyone gets over quickly when it's aimed in your direction. Heck neither
are 223's.

tomu March 13th, 2005, 02:55 PM


Lot's of free information about building your own AK receiver from scratch by bending sheet metal and riveting as well as a
receiver template as PDF can be found at:

http://www.akparts.com/

This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK.

I have no ties nor I'm in anyway affiliated with this company.

tomu March 13th, 2005, 02:55 PM


Lot's of free information about building your own AK receiver from scratch by bending sheet metal and riveting as well as a
receiver template as PDF can be found at:

http://www.akparts.com/

This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK.

I have no ties nor I'm in anyway affiliated with this company.

tomu March 13th, 2005, 02:55 PM


Lot's of free information about building your own AK receiver from scratch by bending sheet metal and riveting as well as a
receiver template as PDF can be found at:
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
http://www.akparts.com/

This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK.

I have no ties nor I'm in anyway affiliated with this company.

Jacks Complete March 13th, 2005, 08:16 PM


lowjack, that is called the law of unintended consequences.

You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being
caught, since both carry a five to ten year term!

Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be
out in seven!

Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder,
wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be
able to get a jury trial!

Jacks Complete March 13th, 2005, 08:16 PM


lowjack, that is called the law of unintended consequences.

You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being
caught, since both carry a five to ten year term!

Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be
out in seven!

Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder,
wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be
able to get a jury trial!

Jacks Complete March 13th, 2005, 08:16 PM


lowjack, that is called the law of unintended consequences.

You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being
caught, since both carry a five to ten year term!

Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be
out in seven!

Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder,
wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be
able to get a jury trial!

Storm on the Horizon July 9th, 2006, 03:41 AM


Yes, that HackCanada file is the 'file of dubious origin' that I was referring to....And here is the site it came from:
<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/semifull.html" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/
semifull.html</a>

I know this is an old post, but saw this and thought I should make a correction. The "Lightning Link" and photo of it posted for
the AK does work - very well for that matter.... only one problem. It will not work in an AK47. It was miss-identitified. The
photo is an SKS autosear. I uploaded two versions of this autosear for everyones viewing pleasure.

http://rapidshare.de/files/25343680/SKS_Auto_Sear_Plans.pdf.html

and

http://rapidshare.de/files/25343753/SKS_Drop-In_Full_Auto_Sear.pdf.html

Enjoy.

Do NOT quote whole posts!

furdog July 23rd, 2006, 03:19 PM


Actually instead of the 10 years and all the bull that comes along with special triggers ect... you can take parts of the
romainian full auto parts kit and do the exact same thing without the sear in the front this way its a double pull when you let
off the trigger it fires when you pull it fires and with a little bit of filing on the trip and selector notch that holds the rear sear
catch you can almost fire 80rds a min trust me its a lot better than going to jail, if ya like i can try and take some pics of the
inside my guns and post them. I have about 60 AK47s and 74s and from A to Z on the brands. I also do Custom wood stocks
and handles for about anything. I also do have a Class 2 FFL with a SOG stamp . but even i do like idea of 3rd bursts to full
auto when you burn up around 14,000 rds in a open field for the love of hearing the sound of a automatic.

festergrump July 23rd, 2006, 06:59 PM


Furdog,

Yes, please do try to post some pictures of your FCG in this configuration.
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I had given some thought on how to do this very thing (Georgia state law states a weapon is declared full auto only if more
than 6 shots are fired with one trigger action) but assumed this would involve removing the disconnector spring and welding
the disconnector in just the right position in relation to the front trigger hook(s). When the trigger is pulled, the hammer is
released, recoil of the bolt carrier allows the diconnector to engage the hammer and hold it until the trigger is released, thus
allowing a second shot... lather, rinse, repeat... :) I wasn't positive this would work and didn't feel like messing up a perfectly
good FCG to try it.

From the way you describe your method in your post is leads me to assume it involves a FA disconnector and selector
relationship? Just interested in the process. (IMHO, a select fire is the way to go if you're willing to risk the 10 years fed time
or bump firing if not. M. Kashnikov made it all too easy on us home-brewers, though! Add FA sear and a rate reducer...
BINGO! Rock-n-roll :D ).

NOTE: It should be worthy of a mention that most Romanian kits (especially that of the Romy G type, most popular right now)
are now coming without a disconnector at all and will need to be purchased seperately in either the FA or semi-auto variety.
Always ask before you buy a kit just to be sure you have everything you need to complete a working rifle (since disconnectors
are under $10) and you won't have to pay twice for shipping and handling charges (usually around another $10 no matter how
small the part).

Kudos on your massive AKM collection! I'd love to see a pic of them all lined up and ready for duty, too, if thats possible (gun
porn spank material! ;) )...

P.S. Also, please be more careful with i/I when refering to yourself in the future. It's the leading cause of death among
newbies around here. Just a friendly reminder.

BulletSmith July 24th, 2006, 06:28 PM


I have heard of a trick where you tie a string to the trigger, loop it around the buttstock and then tie it to the charging handle.
When you release the bolt, it goes forward and after it locks up it pulls the triger itself. You could maybe make it more
functional by adding a bunjee cord to the mix.

The other cool thing is that you can do it to any open bolt semi auto. I'm afraid to do it to my M-1 Garand. :p

++++++++++++

The other thing you could do is learn to put together a decent sentence that doesn't require Daddy ;) to correct it for you. :p

NBK

furdog July 24th, 2006, 08:34 PM


Festergrump, I will try and do some pics of the configuration sometime soon and your right about the rate reducer it is needed
but thats it no other parts!!! Simple as the Ultimate trigger system but without all the extras.

Here is the pics of the AK's. This is just some of them, the 2 in the middle have custom wood stocks I made! http://
Badcompanyfiishing.Com/IMG_2266.JPG

Oh, and thanks for the heads up on the reminder but actually I am within my limits, And as far as the snacks, LOL, they're
after hours and she works for the agency you specified!

++++++

You too.

NBK

Cobalt.45 July 26th, 2006, 10:31 AM


NOTE: It should be worthy of a mention that most Romanian kits (especially that of the Romy G type, most popular right now)
are now coming without a disconnector at all and will need to be purchased seperately in either the FA or semi-auto variety.

Very good point. This is getting to be one of those "If I had a nickle for every..." type of thing. Keep one on hand for this
reason. If you're not sure, ask.

Numrich, among others, have component kits for the Romanian variant for < $120.00. Contains all except receiver, stock and
mag.

Panzerfaust29a July 30th, 2006, 02:52 PM


you can take parts of the romainian full auto parts kit and do the exact same thing without the sear in the front this way its a
double pull when you let off the trigger it fires when you pull it fires and with a little bit of filing on the trip and selector notch
that holds the rear sear catch you can almost fire 80rds a min trust me its a lot better than going to jail

That actually sounds pretty interesting (and I have heard of it), I am not sure I understand how such a modification works is
there a document or diagram that explains it?

furdog July 31st, 2006, 09:40 PM


If there is I have never seen one. Your simply using the trigger from the full auto parts kit. When I have the time to make
you some pics of the inside of my gun for a example.

Hammer of God August 2nd, 2006, 12:56 PM


There is a full-auto AK conversion that requires no reciever modification and is safer than tying back the disconnector. It uses
a trip bolted to the safety which pushes the disconnector back upon the bolt's closing, releasing the hammer.
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I will upload the plans on rapidshare ASAP.

Genocyde August 3rd, 2006, 04:37 AM


Here you go, ghetto full auto at its best. LOL

+++++++++++

Your attachment is unapproved as being both unoriginal and undetailed.

Go back to 4chan if that's the best you can do.

NBK

Ok, sorry.. The photo was simply meant as an illustration to BulletSmith's comment above.

I have heard of a trick where you tie a string to the trigger, loop it around the buttstock and then tie it to the charging handle.
When you release the bolt, it goes forward and after it locks up it pulls the triger itself. You could maybe make it more
functional by adding a bunjee cord to the mix.

Sorry it's not original. The picture isn't mine, and I wasn't claiming that it was. I should have quoted BulletSmith to begin with
though.

P.S. Until a Google search a few minutes ago, I had no idea what 4chan is.

Hammer of God August 3rd, 2006, 12:50 PM


Here are the plans for the AK conversion on rapidshare.

http://rapidshare.de/files/28048409/AK_DIAS.rar.html

+++++++

Always capitalize acronyms (AK, not ak).

NBK

c4550 August 5th, 2006, 01:43 AM


Slam fires will not blow up an AK. I build them as a hobby. If it fires out of battery, the bolt is nearly fully locked in the
trunnion when that occurs and will not harm you (likely, no promises).

Slam firing is no good for a combat weapon. First, it lacks select fire capability. Second, the hammer follows the carrier on it's
way into battery. It frequently lacks the striking strength to set off hard milspec primers. In other words, don't trust your life to
a gun that may not go bang.

The AK series weapons (AK47,AKM,AK74) are readily converted back to their select fire capability by purchasing a perfectly
legal, full auto, fire control group. The FCG has an autosear and rate reducer(sometimes called an anti-bounce device). This is
where the drilling of the dreaded third hole comes into play.

You drill that hole and get caught, 10 years club fed.

You also have to notch one of the lower rails so that the autosear sticks up and can be tripped by the bolt/carrier to release
the hammer. This way the hammer gets a full strength drop on the firing pin for those hard milspec primers.

The parts are easily obtained online for about $25. You would need a template (sorry, don't have one) to correctly drill the
third axis pin hole. 5mm on one side, 7mm bit for the other.

To have a gun worthy of trusting your life with, it needs to be in it's original configuration. DIAS, shoestrings, bump firing are
all fun but have little combat value. One setup as a SAW might be of some value if used properly with support. The SKS would
be my choice if I were to make a SAW.

If you want to learn how to build your own AK there is a ton of home builders that post in the "Build it yourself" section here
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=77

So, how did I do for my first post? Acceptable or garbage?

macgyver6868 September 7th, 2006, 09:53 PM


If you can find the company, Autowerkes sells the plans for a secondary trigger the mounts below the trigger guard.When
pulled, it is supposed to deliver full auto fire from any position.

I believe there is a link to the website at Mac10.net

festergrump September 30th, 2006, 02:35 PM


There's some discussion HERE (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15755) about the two shot trigger (AKA Dead
Man's Trigger). Check out Kernel Krink's idea of using a double disconnector system which can be controlled via the selector/
safety lever.

Very interesting...
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Devnull December 20th, 2006, 02:47 AM
There are several sites out there which have the FA parts for the AK-47.

Theoretically you can get the tax stamp to allow you to build your own reciever that is full auto.

If you don't like meeting bubba and you live in a state where personal property laws are completely eroded it may be worth
it.$200 fee/tax, fingerprints and a background check and they should approve it.

Since a home made AK-47 is technically not an AK you can get it approved as a USA made device. (Or so I have been told
from a lawyer friend of mine...)

But hey, your not gonna take that bad boy to the shooting range anyway, are you? Who's gonna know?

Just search on the internet for full auto ak-47 for dummies. Good instructions are out there!

DrugRunR December 31st, 2006, 11:28 PM


No you can't
As a private individual (non 007 sot) you can not make a machine gun.
That stopped in 1986

For a $200 tax stamp (each) you can build silencers, Short Barrel rifles, and Short barrel shotguns. But you can't build machine
guns.

ShadowMyGeekSpace January 29th, 2007, 11:11 AM


You can manufacture an automatic weapon, because the GCA regulates manufacturing and the like through interstate
commerce... although I believe you need a manufacturing FFL (class 3?) to do it.

Defendu January 29th, 2007, 11:37 AM


because the GCA regulates manufacturing and the like through interstate commerce

I believe DrugRunR meant the machine gun and ballistic knife ban of '86, which was attached to the Firearm Owner's
Protection Act.

festergrump January 29th, 2007, 11:45 AM


So far as legalities in the USA are concerned, DrugRunR is correct about the needing a class 7 SOT, and even then it must be
a sample submitted for LEO's agency demonstration and approval for future acquisition. Red tape and lots of paperwork apply.

Anyone who has or can obtain the correct NFA approved papers can have a preban transferred to them legally (with taxes
applied also), but no more manufacturing going on for private use.

Check the cost of preban autos and it will reflect what I'm saying is true. There are only so many prebans out there and
available for purchase, so the cost is astronomical...

ShadowMyGeekSpace January 29th, 2007, 11:49 AM


Ahhhhh, my bad. I retract my previous post.

festergrump January 29th, 2007, 01:22 PM


Just for clarification, the class 3 FFL is for manufacturing a weapon with the intent to sell it. This in no way involves anything
which allows a weapon to fire more than one projectile per operation of the trigger mechanism (read: semi-auto, bolt, single
shot, and other NON- FA actions).

The receiver of the manufactured firearm for sale must include the name and address of the manufacturer imprinted or
engraved upon it to even a certain size and depth. :rolleyes:

You do not require such a license to make a _______-action (insert legally acceptable action here) firearm for your own
personal use in the USA nor does it require any such name or address to be inscribed upon it, however, were one to make
several "personal weapons" then find his/herself in dire finacial straights and need to sell them all... it might attract the kind
of attentions you'd certianly want to avoid, depending on the quantity sold.

Just an observation I made as I do pay close attention to such laws and restrictions for safety sake. :) (me so law-abiding! We
need a halo emote just for me... :D)

defiant January 29th, 2007, 10:50 PM


I keep getting conflicting reports as to whether its legal to manufacture a full auto for personal use, and need to take the time
to research the matter for myself. Towards this end, here's a link to the Firearm Owners' Protection Act, Title 18, Chapter 44
"Firearms", 921 et seq.:

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C44.txt

Legal issues aside, except for the dangers of slam firing a weapon, a lot of the preceeding information on AK full autos/
conversions is incorrect or misleading. Slamfiring risks a bolt not being fully engaged, which can result in a cartridge rupturing
and dispelling gases and fragments back at the shooter. Safe operation of a firearm requires that the headspace, the distance
between the rear of a chambered cartridge and the front face of a locked bolt be within set parameters. Insufficient headspace
prevents the bolt from locking, while too much headspace allows the cartridge to stretch rearward when its fired - which
increases the likelihood that the cartridge will rupture and/or blow back gas and fragments at the shooter. The difference
between acceptable and non-acceptable headspace is measured in the thousands of an inch, so slam firing has risks
associated with it.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
With regards to Romanian full autos, they did come out with a model with a full auto assembly that mounts forward of the
trigger - but that assembly is for three round bursts. A full auto sear and disconnector are required, so its not a self contained
full auto mechanism forward of the trigger. A diagram of the Romanian setup follows:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/361/3shotburstaktriggerdiagbp7.gif

Anyway, the full auto trigger group will still result in slam firing. A full auto AK also includes full auto rails, full auto bolt, full
auto bolt carrier, and a full auto safety/selector switch.

I'm no expert on full autos, but as I understand it the full autobolt and/or full auto carrier disengages the auto sear in a timed
manner to ensure that the bolt is closed or has a chance to fully close prior to the hammer being released. In all likelihood
the safety/selector switch disengages the disconnector. I have no clue what the notch in the full auto rail does.

One of the projects on my list is to build a cutaway full auto receiver. If I ever get around to it I'll post pics or a vid.

festergrump January 30th, 2007, 10:59 AM


I have no clue what the notch in the full auto rail does.

I tried to use as much of the illustration you provided as I could to show the notch or slot in the right lower rail and how it's
needed for the the full auto sear to work.

Everything else you mentioned is pretty much correct, the FA disconnector differs from the semi-auto one in that it has a "tail"
that the selector/safety uses to disengage it, whereas the semi does not (this lack of a tail will in and of itself render an
otherwise FA AKM into a semi-auto only one, but is not enough for the BATFE to recognise as a legal semi-auto only rifle).

From this doctored picture I hope you can get a better idea of how simple the design really is.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/FASearRelationship.jpg

When the Bolt carrier brings the bolt to lock within the front trunion it passes over the portion of the FA sear sticking up above
the slot in the lower rail, throwing the sear forward, thus tripping the hammer and firing the round.

You are correct in how the selector/safety holds the disconnector out of operation, so as long as the trigger is held... the bolt
carrier will continue to move freely back and forth, first resetting the hammer to horizontal position (caught again by the notch
in the front of the hammer by the auto sear on it's rearward motion, then travelling forward under spring pressure to strip the
next round from the magazine and carry it to chamber, tripping the auto sear again once bolt is locked into battery to release
the hammer... repeats itself until trigger is released and front hook of trigger interupts the cycle by holding the hammer back
despite auto sear already being tripped for next shot.

I hope this makes sense...

The illustration you provided showing the three-round burst mechanism is more than likely of Polish manufacture, as they were
the first to incorperate this into an AKM derivative they designed called the TANTAL, chambering the 5.45 X 39. Now, I believe
Russia also uses it on there AK-100+ series, IIRC.

Disclaimer: Having an AKM with a receiver which has the holes drilled for the Auto Sear pivot pin AND/OR the slot in the Lower
Right rail for the Auto Sear is considered by the BATFE as being in possession of a FULLY AUTOMATIC rifle, whether all the
other FA parts are present or not...

http://www.bsg-dornier.de/schiessen/filme/filme.htm[/url]

Without an auto sear or disconnector, the hammer would simply ride the bolt carrier back into battery without enough inertia to
fire the round. This especially being true due to the bump on the rear of the FA bolt carrier, which is only a safety feature the
FA bolt carrier has (and the semi-auto only bolt carrier has not) to eliminate the risk of possible slam-fires.

defiant January 30th, 2007, 08:24 PM


The drawing/illustration is of a Romanian Tantal. But as you correctly point out, the Polish Tantal and the Russian AK 100 has
3 round burst as well.

Your taking the time on the illustrations and explanation is acknowledged and appreciated, but there are still alot of missing
pieces to the puzzle.

First, the notch I was talking about is not the one in the drawing - but the notch in the ejector port rail (left side of receiver):

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3614/akreceiverrailannotatedtf7.jpg

The semi auto doesn't have this notch.

The right side receiver rail is pictured below:

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3715/picturejf7.jpg

The cutout notch you refer to can be seen in its correct orientation (below the slide, in front of the rivet). I'll bear your advice in
mind, but that would position the full auto sear over the magazine well and some distance forward of the hammer.

The receiver in the photographs is a DCI "Premium" receiver. The "Premium" designation includes a receiver with full auto
rails.

If anyone's got illustrations or photographs of full auto trigger group installed in a receiver - a post or link would be greatly
appreciated. The "Full Auto Conversion" book on the AK is essentially useless. It doesn't even show an isnstalled trigger group
(I'd have been ripped off if I paid money for it).

festergrump January 31st, 2007, 11:10 AM


This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
There does seem to be alot of needless confusion regarding the workings of a select-fire AKM. Gleaning info from an AKM
forum is also a difficult task, as most will not cater to people who are not legally capable of owning a class 3 weapon...

My only experiences with a select-fire AKM are from handling one a friend had and brought over to show me. A lot of things
clicked in my head once I saw how it was all put together and worked the action slowly, by hand, in each firing mode.

Aside from the lower right rail there is no need for a notch or cutout on the ejector (left lower rail) unless this has something to
do with the tri-burst parts, which I doubt, but am not sure of entirely. The tri-burst mechanisms I have never had in my
possession to fiddle with.

The cutout notch you refer to can be seen in its correct orientation (below the slide, in front of the rivet).

This is an easily made mistake. The right lower rail you show does not have the notch for the auto sear, which it DOES need to
be an auto, or it is too dark of a picture to be seen.

Look more carefully at the rail from the picture then at the rail in the DCI receiver. The rail in the photo does not appear to
have a slotted place for the Auto sear to poke up through whereas the one in the drawing does. The curl on the underside of
the LR rail (just atop the mag dimple) is for magazine stability and nothing more (in fact, I have had to grind these down
some on Tapco rails to get the mag to fit correctly without canting when building my own semi-auto model. Grind not enough
off and the mag will cant and sometimes not feed correctly from the left side of the mag... too much and it will feed correctly
but have some irritating magazine wobble).

Bear also in mind that in order for DCI to be able to sell a receiver with a slot on the LR rail for an auto sear it would be a class
3 item, as the receiver is the weapon according to BATFE. The slot makes it a "machinegun" as opposed to a semi-auto
whether the auto sear pivot-pin holes are drilled yet or not. (man, I know it sucks).

Just look very carefully at the rail in your DCI and compare it to the one in the drawing. If there's a difference it should be
apparent by paying close attention to the integrity of the topmost side of the rail (the part which will be in contact with the
bolt). If it has a cutout about 5/8" x 1/8" on the receiver wall side it's full auto, if it is consistant in it's width the entire length
of the rail it is not FA.

Here's a picture of a semi-auto rail I have on hand. It's from Tapco. Highlighted are the areas which would need to be
removed before it will accept the auto sear:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/example01.jpg

Alternatively, since the rails are already spotwelded in place on the DCI receiver, you could cut out the entire section with a
Dremel-tool and use it like that. The space removed is about 5/8" and the section of bolt which rides on this rail is also about
5/8"... SWIM tells me you shouldn't have much problem since the bolt will pass over this entirely too quickly for the bolt to
drop into, so long as the frontmost section remains on the same level as the rearmost (ie: not bent up or down)... :)

Here is a picture I just took of how the FA fire control group goes together:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/example02.jpg

A) FCG axis pin


B) Trigger
C) FA Disconnector
D) Rate Reducer spring
E) Rate Reducer
*) FA "tail" on disconnector for selector lever to disengage disconnector when in FA mode

Note: Yes, I do have some FA parts left over from a kit or two. No, I do not ever use them in any of my semi-auto builds. I
prefer to replace the entire FCG with US made parts to be 922r compliant, leaving out the rate reducer and it's spring.

Hope that helps!

nbk2000 January 31st, 2007, 12:52 PM


I've attached a color corrected version of the picture of the right rail that defiant posted.

festergrump January 31st, 2007, 03:47 PM


Thanks for the color correction, NBK. :)

Now I can see that DCI might have played the 'confusion card' to their advantage... :mad:

I'll bear your advice in mind, but that would position the full auto sear over the magazine well and some distance forward of
the hammer.

Actually, the armature of the auto sear which contacts the bolt carrier rides beside the magazine in the space allowed (about 1/
8") by the magazine dimple and LR rail curl and rests just in front of the center support. The auto sear pivot axis is just
behind the magazine well, does not interfere with the magazine at all, yet it is barely behind (and somewhat) below the center
support. It IS in front of the hammer pivot, though. (it is confusing when explaining it, I know, but so simple when you just
see it. My template is in .DXF format and I cannot provide a picture since my printer is out of ink and I cannot print it then
scan it full size. I'll post it to Rapidshare in .DXF format if anyone needs it, though).

I have a Tapco flat and I think I have some thin cardboard handy. If needed, I could cut out a cardboard flat, bend and
maybe somehow glue it into shape, and take some better pictures.

If this is needed or asked of me, it will better illustrate how it all fits, and I'll be happy to give it a shot. I will NOT brave the
cold to to bend the flat, however (BRRR!), and will DEFINITELY not make a select fire receiver... sorry! :o

defiant February 1st, 2007, 12:30 AM


DCI receivers are available at http://www.nodakspud.com/page2.htm. The receiver seems ok, but I haven't had time to test fit
the trunnions or other parts yet. The Nodakspud add says that the premium receiver includes "top rail step-down" - and further
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
down the page, "only really needed on full-auto guns"... So they don't say anything about the full auto sear cutout, just the
step down which is evidently the "notch" in the left rail (w/the red arrow in the picture above).

Semi-auto AK's don't have this left rail notch. I don't know what that notch is for, but sooner or later that will be figured out.

As for the cutout notch on the right rail, you appear to be absolutely correct. Courtesy of a full auto kit, photos of the right rail
follow:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7837/rail1oy8.jpg

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7939/rail2se7.jpg

So if I'm not misinterpreting anything, the auto sear relationship to the right rail would look something like this:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9402/wautosearhg3.jpg

And aligning the spring as shown below, with the bent end of the spring fit into the small hole in the auto sear and the coiled
hole in the spring lined up with the larger retainer pin hole in the auto sear:

http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/9089/searwspringmz8.jpg

http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/6328/searwspring2hk7.jpg

I haven't figured out what the free end of the spring goes, so any help in this regard would be appreciated ... :rolleyes:

I have a Tapco flat and I think I have some thin cardboard handy. If needed, I could cut out a cardboard flat, bend and
maybe somehow glue it into shape, and take some better pictures.

You're explaining yourself fine without the model. Yesterday this was impossible:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4518/triggergrouplm6.jpg

Now for the legal disclaimer: I fully intend to build a full auto ak - but only after researching and complying with the legal
requirements. Thus far my research leads me to believe that Class III weapons are legal to own in my home state of Florida,
but an individual needs to have a chief law enforcement officer "sign off" that the individual is law abiding, and not a risk to
society or the established order. Or something like that. The problem is, reportedly, that law enforcement won't sign the
required form. The alternative may be to register the Class III weapon to a corporation - as corporations aren't required to
have a chief law enforcement officer sign off. This applies to ownership of silencers, but I'm not positive it applies to full autos
or full autos manufactured after 1986. Will post a legal treatise after researching the matter thoroughly.

festergrump February 1st, 2007, 01:06 AM


I haven't figured out what the free end of the spring goes, so any help in this regard would be appreciated ...

Simple. It goes under the Hammer pin and over the FCG pin. This negates the need for a "shepherds hook" or E-clips to hold
all the pins in... :D (M. Kalashnikov is my fricken HERO!).

Looks like you've got it licked! (that is... except for the legal battle. :eek: ).

Marxist August 11th, 2008, 10:40 AM


Ive found this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OMIIC_MIxMA) on youtube , its not exactly drop-in , but might help...

Springfield August 20th, 2008, 01:43 PM


^ You beat me to it.

And, I don't know how safe it would be, but I believe it's possible to go straight full auto by just removing the disconnecter
altogether.

Plus that's gives you denyability, because you can say you must have forgotten that step upon reassembling your rifle ;)

festergrump August 21st, 2008, 11:06 AM


No, that won't work. If you remove the disconnector the hammer will ride the bolt carrier back and not fire the weapon. Even if
you ground the safety bump off the rear of the FA bolt carrier, the most you could hope for is a slam fire, but that won't be
reliable at all nor in any way safe. Slamfires are DANGEROUS!

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Gun plans

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View Full Version : Gun plans

SawedOff8gaugeman August 12th, 2001, 12:41 PM


There's a topic "weapon plans" but I don't consider it the same(if you disagree just look at some posts in ithttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif)...

So if you have some links to (preferably pdf) gun plans, you are pushed to post them here. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

I already have those exploded drawings of Urban-Armory, Gunsworld etc... the same collection btw seems to be in a variety of web sites. And they are not plans, exactly.

The Sten mk II plans: Someone mentioned in an other topic that www.wetworx.com (http://www.wetworx.com) has a link on the "conversions" section. Well, they don't have
a link, but they have <a href="http://www.wetworx.com/sten.pdf">the pdf</a> as www.wetworx.com/sten.pdf (http://www.wetworx.com/sten.pdf) !!(Found that while
searching for gun plans. The only set of plans I found http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif)

[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited August 15, 2001).]

ogi August 17th, 2001, 09:37 AM


secret to your answer is dont look to hard on
on a specific site if your keen enough youll find all your answers on a few different sites

try for instance glock


there are a few reputable armoures who put in in nick nacks that others dont
try finding the armoures manual and go from there

plus to do it youll nearly need to be an engineer

b00mslang October 14th, 2004, 01:17 PM


I seem to have located dozens of copies of MK2 and MKV (Sten) templates for download off of various sites but nothing for the MK3.

azzogat October 15th, 2004, 04:28 PM


I don't think this thread is apropiate here (don't shoot me if I'm wrong).You only need to dig a little deeper into the Literature thread and you'll discover dozens of firearm
plans.So basicly this thread is useless because anybody that finds something of interest (ex: gun plans) will post it in the above mentioned thread.Then again I might be
wrong.

shootersharp November 4th, 2004, 11:30 AM


Someone already found a plan for the sten mk3?

ajt November 9th, 2004, 02:15 PM


Hello, from what I remember the differences between the sten model designations is of little significance, mostly different barrel assemblies and butt stock differences,though
the trigger group on the later models was the forerunner to the Sterling(or so I am lead to beleive).Para versions had foregrip over the barrel/fully moderated barrels etc...
Appart from a few minor size differences(tighter tollerances etc) they are(receiver,bolt & trigger group) of basicaly the same simple construction.
aj

Bigfoot November 12th, 2004, 01:05 AM


I'm seeking plans for double shotgun, SxS or O/U. SxS pref with external hammers. This is to be scaled up to 26.5 mm bore, to replicate functionality of Bundewehr issued
double launcher, vintage WWII. Example held @ museum in UK, when sold stateside, very costly. If anyone should happen upon plans, I will appreciate being informed.

guerrero December 23rd, 2004, 11:46 AM


Im seeking detailled plans (blueprints with dimensions) of some "toys" like boltgun, canegun and buckler of Richard Sardaukar (Sardaukar press). Do somebody know where I
can get these?

Joeychemist December 23rd, 2004, 12:01 PM


You can find everything you need on our ftp, just search. ;)

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > m g42 project

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herrbauer August 19th, 2001, 12:49 PM


I'm looking for a conversion p roject for a germ a n M G 4 2 m a c h i n e g u n . T h e firing system is dam a g e d . I f s o m e o n e c o u l d h e l p ,
would be great.

AR-15 Man August 19th, 2001, 06:51 PM


Is that it? Dang you are in real good luck. Try to buy som e parts from the US. How bad is it dam a g e d .

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > C onverting SAR 1 AK-47
to Full-Auto or Select-Fire

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View Full Version : Converting SAR 1 AK-47 to Full-Auto or Select-Fire

Teck May 25th, 2001, 04:02 AM


D o e s a n y o n e h a v e a n l i t e r a t u r e o r a n y p a m phlets on how to conver AK-47s to full or select fire?

------------------
-------------------------
I d e a s a r e m ore powerful than guns. W e would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ide a s ?
--Joseph Stalin
(and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)

AR-15 Man May 25th, 2001, 03:25 PM


W ell it isn't easy. You will need to buy a new bolt and trigger parts. You will also have to m odify the receiver for the 3rd sear
hole . I d o n ' t h a v e a n y b o o k s b u t I a m g o i n g t o a g u n s h o w a n d i f I s e e a cheap o ne I m ig ht pick it up. But full auto in a
combat rifle is high erratic. You can't hit shit. Learning to use the rifle in sem i is much better. You will rack up more kills. If you
are wanting to just blast away learn the bump method or buy a trigger device. Either way you will benefit.

HMTD Factory May 25th, 2001, 09:52 PM


I a m waiting for a bunch of conversion/blueprin ts to hit m y door, once I got them I'll try to go to a scanner.

Teck May 26th, 2001, 05:39 AM


HTMDFactory: Im looking forward for you on po sting that.
Also I know where you can buy the whole kit for select-fire with the auto sear the trigger group and the sele ctor lever and som e
other parts wich i dont know where the hell they go all for $70 but I need the directions first just to see what all the parts I
need.

------------------
-------------------------
I d e a s a r e m ore powerful than guns. W e would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ide a s ?
--Joseph Stalin
(and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)

HMTD Factory May 26th, 2001, 05:55 AM


The auto-kit can be found in Shotgun News,
notice auto-conv. parts or kit gun without
a receiver.

Teck May 30th, 2001, 03:05 AM


Most of those advertism ents are m a d e b y g o v e r n m ent agents to catch the people that are stupid enough to actually by kits.
Its a Fellony and 10 years in jail for an unregistered full-auto we a p o n .
http://plauder-sm ilies.de/rough/fal.gif

[This message has been edited by Teck (edited May 30, 2001).]

AR-15 Man May 30th, 2001, 03:03 PM


Teck is very correct. Most of the adds are sting operations. Especially the one that say's le gal AR-1 5 auto sear. If you look a t
the address it is PO Box near Arlington, Virginia. I wonder what's there oh yea just FBI, and ATF he adquarters. You can try
s o m e of the bigger com p a n i e s l i k e T e n n e s s e e g u n s , P r o g r e s s i v e A r m s, AA-OK, ect. They are very legit. I should know I live in
T e n n e s s e e a n d h a v e b o u g h t p a r t s f r o m T e n n e s s e e g u n s. But sorry AK's aren't ea sy to convert. AR's on the other hand can be
done using a lighting link, dro p in parts, and other methods. Anyways is you want a lot of legal full auto just the Class II
m anufature license when you get old enough.

Teck May 31st, 20 01, 11:0 0 PM


Ill be orderin g s o m e parts from www.aa-ok.com (http://www.aa-ok.com )

Check out some of this stuff.

http://www.sksparts.com /howwilltheyconficateyo urguns.htm l

http://www.sksparts.com /whattodowhenthepolicecom e . h t m l
http://plauder-sm ilies.de/rough/com e a n d g e t s o m e . g i f

http://www.sksparts.com /arm edrevolutionpossibleandnotsodifficult.htm l

http://www.ak-47.net/legal/sear1.txt

AR-15 Man June 1st, 2001, 11:41 AM


Teck, you ha ve m ade a good choice by going with AA-OK for your parts. I agree with a lot of the links above about the
government's plan to take guns. It will happen. Those of you with the ab ility to be future guerillas need to train. Train hard.
Assaultweb.n et is a good resource for patriots. But please if you go to their forum s d o n ' t t a l k a b o u t m a n u f a c t u r e o f e x p l o s i v e s .
They don't like that. They prefer to keep their black activities secret.

boomfreak June 15th, 2001, 08:51 AM


This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Hey guys, go to www.catco.net (http://www.catco.net) they've got a DETAILED video on ak and ar conversion (call them, it's not
on their site).
They don't sell them anym ore but if you look h a r d e n o u g h y o u c a n f i n d a m e t a l t e m plate that will locate the auto-sear holes
for you. Try the m ach ine shop s in the shotgun news. It's also a good place to pick up the parts you'll need

Teck June 17th, 2001, 03:54 AM


Thanks all for info.

SawedOff8gaugeman July 14th, 20 01, 11:2 4 AM


Do you know any place on the internet where ak-47 select-fire conversion kits could be ordered in Europe by mail?

(of course such perso n which sends or orders such item s h a s t o b e b a s e d o n a c o u n t r y w h e r e p o s s e s s i n g t h ese parts is legal,
otherwise he's insane ) http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

J u s t a s k i n g b e c a u s e i n m y country possessing any gun part is le gal, unless it is a barrel, bolt or receiver, or other part with
sim ilar function(think about break action and bolt http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif). Installing such parts
and making full-auto modifications is another story, but that's som ething I wouldn't do http://theforum.virtualave.n e t / u b b /
smilies/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited July 14, 2001).]

SawedOff8gaugeman July 14th, 20 01, 11:3 0 AM


If I get to know a way to get those parts, I will get som e excuse for the piggery a n d b u y a n a v t o m a t k a l a s h n i k o v h t t p : / /
theforum.virtualave.n et/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

C h i n e s e o n e s c o s t a b out 350-400 in $ here. Would you consider that a g ood price ?

<a href="http://practical.hyperm art.net/ase.html">Finnish ones</a> cost about $2000(they are the best ak's in the world but I
won't pay that m uch), and tha t's quite a m o n e y f o r a k a l a s h n i k o v .

They are also very advanced from the original ak-47 so I'm not sure if they could b e c o n v e r t e d i n e x a c t l y t h e s a m e m e a n s
than regular ak's http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif

[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y S a w e d O f f 8 g a u g e m a n ( e d i t e d J u l y 1 4 , 2 0 0 1 ) . O roginal. http://theforum .virtualave.net/ub b/


smilies/biggrin.gif I m ust have been drunk or smt http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/tong ue.gif]

[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited July 16, 2001).]

AR-15 Man July 14th, 20 01, 03:0 7 PM


SawedOff8gaugeman, depends on your country and how rare it is. In the US 350 to 400 is a good price on a post 89 sporter
MAC -90 which is a bastardized chinense Type 5 6. As for Valm ets which are related to AK's but much supieror it can be anywhere
depending on what it has calibre, how m any m ags, spare parts ect. As for converting valmets it depends on what country you
are from b e c a u s e e a c h o n e d o e s d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s t o m a k e t h e m semi. If you are in the US I can tell you what you should pay.

SawedOff8gaugeman July 14th, 20 01, 04:1 1 PM


W ell, I live in Finland, the home of Valmets http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/sm ile.gif As you m aybe already know,
Valm e t s e m i a u t o a k w a s d i s c o n t i n u e d a n d a n o t h e r m o d el, Sako M92 S was produ ced for some years. It was discontinued too
because it was too expensive ---> was not sold e n o u g h .

I f s o m e o n e ' s i n t e r e s t e d ( I g u e s s n o t h t t p : / / t h e f o r u m .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/wink.gif) <a href="http://www.saunalahti.fi/


~asetalo/htm l/hinnasto00.htm " > h e r e < / a > i s a n e x a m p le of how som e com mon guns are priced in Finland. I guess the prices
a r e t h e s a m e or higher than in U.S, depending of the gun's origin etc., of course. And now I'm talking about legal g uns
purchased from an authorized dealer, of course.

AR-15 Man July 14th, 20 01, 11:3 9 PM


How hard is it to have full auto in Finland? I hear it is pretty easy. And very little wait. If I was you and was gonna use the
7.62x39 round go with the Chinese AK because the better design of the valm et won't help the accuracy of that round. As for
.223, .308, then go for a Valm et. Unless you can get AK-74's cham bered in either .223 or 5.45x39 . Or you might be able to in
Finland get the Russian AK-100 series. That wo u l d b e a b l e s s i n g . Or what about Galil's they are still made. That is alm o s t o n
par with a Va lm et.

SawedOff8gaugeman July 16th, 20 01, 01:2 9 PM


Nope, it is not easy. It is practically impossible. Only an authorized firearm s collector has the possibility to possess full-auto
weapons legally.

T h e t i m e y o u h a v e t o wait to get a gun is not u sually a problem a n d i t d e p e n d s o n where you live and how lazy people you
h a p p e n t o m eet.

For a gun-owner, Finland is alm ost a nightm are.

HMTD Factory August 22nd, 2001, 11:01 PM


U.S. now has it's own "dom estic" semi AK-47's
that uses U.S. m ade receiver and foreign parts...to com ply with assualt weapon import ban.

will36 February 3rd, 2007, 09:36 PM


Hey guys, go to...

John Norrell sells them he is a class3 man. and the inventor of the norrell 10/22 trigger pack. (the 9,000 dollar ones)
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++++++++++

Don't quote whole posts. NBK

blackice February 26th, 2007, 10:43 AM


http://nw0.in fo/

E-books, firearm s full-auto conversions, plus m any others.

macgyver6868 March 11th, 2007, 06:19 PM


W ithout gram m ar:

just look on gunbroker.comor ftfindustries.com.both have drill jigs that you use as a temp late for the autosear hole.ftf has a
very fast shipping tim e and i have yet to hear the feds at m y do orstep.

W ith gramm ar:

Just look on www.gunbroker.com or www.ftfindustries.com.

Both have drill jigs that you can use as a tem plate for the autosear hole. FTF has a very fast shipp ing time and I have yet to
hear the feds at my doorstep.

O n e p o s t l o o ks like shit, the other doesn't. See the difference good gram m ar ma kes? Use it.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Turn som ething into a
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HMTD Factory October 26th , 2001, 03:55 AM


This should go into the archive so it ca n be found in a search.

The trickier part of making a survival .22 or a disguised .22 at hom e is the barrel and rifling. The stuff here gives solution and
answer for th o s e w h o a s k e d " W here ca n I find a .22 barrel" or "How do I put rifling in my .22 barrel"

.22 Barrel Liner-

A thin tube(25" or 32" in length) of chrome moly steel with internal dimension(.223) and rifling(1-16 twist or 1-20 twist) to fit a
.22 rim fire bullet.

W hy people use it and how to install it:

W hy:

.22 Barrel liners are for converting bigger rifles into shooting .22s or re-boring worn out .22 barrels. O r people(you) want to turn
s o m ething into a .22 barrel without the works.

How:

First a barrel blank(aka "a ste el rod that is thick enough") is drilled to fit the liner. As the liner inserts into the drilled hole,
soldering compound or Acraglas is add ed to fill the gap between liner and original barrel. The Acraglas will glue them together
or hot solder do the job. Last, cut the new barrel precisely and a chamber ream ing job. Now you ha ve a .22 barrel.

The liner will stand pressure of a .22LR or anything less than that(no .22 Hornet or .223 R em, sorry!)

The liners can be found in Bro wnells Catalog,


but m o s t g u n s m i t h e s h a v e s o m e liners as .22 lining is a popular dem a n d .

Brownells website
W W W .Brownells.com (http://W W W.Bro wnells.com)

It's quite a coincidence that this post added m y total post number to 222...

[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y H M T D F a c t o ry (edited October 26, 2001).]

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > re-activating de-
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megalomania May 24th, 2003, 03:00 PM


king s p a z
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 347
From : U K
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 05:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm hoping this is the right pla ce for this topic.
anyways i was wondering whether the deactivated military guns that are sold to military enthusiasts can be reactivated so they
work again. has anybody here been successful in doing this?
any replies will be appreciated .

skunkdude
New Mem ber
Posts: 30
From :
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
posted 04-19-2001 05:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hat type of gun?

Aggy
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 44
From :
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 05:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ' v e b e e n a s k i n g t h e s a m e question for about a year never get m uch of a respon se. You basically have to replace or drill do wn
the barrel an d install certain p arts like firing pins extractors etc.

king s p a z
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 347
From : U K
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for th e replies guys
i'm thinking it would need quite a bit o f work to fix it up again because they weld the barrel aswell as rem oving parts. i think it
c o u l d b e d o n e if you had like a diagram or plans for the gun because you could see whats m issing . does anybody know where
you could get such plans?

jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 111
From : u k
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 06:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there was som eone called antony micthell who reactivated mac10s and sold them to crim e g a n g s . b u t h e w a s a q u a l i f i e d
engineer who reactivated them by fitting a new barrel and breech block.

zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 07:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also you have to take into account the fact that you will also have to be able to get am m o for this gun, which you m ost likely
won't if you live in the uk.

YTS
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 61
From :
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
posted 04-20-2001 05:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a m m o i s n t a p r o b l e m just buy inert am m o and it would it would be easy to make live the hard bit would be reactivating a de -
act ive got old spec de-acts and the least you would need is a decent lathe revolvers would be easier as you can sle e v e t h e m
to a lower calibre that would be quite simple?

zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
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From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-20-2001 05:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H o w a r e y o u g o i n g t o m a k e i n ert am m o live? Sure you can use m atch he ad powder for the prim ers, but what about the
propellant? What are you going to use for that? You can't use BP in sem i-autos, I doubt it would cycle properally. However, you
could use it in a revolver. You could however make your own gun cotton, but how reliable do you think it would be? I'm a s k i n g
this because of a long-term project I'm dream ing up.
------------------
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AR-15 Man
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 180
From :
Registered: OC T 2000
posted 04-20-2001 05:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you were in the US it would be so m uch easier to buy a STEN kit and get the receiver tem plates. It also d e p e n d s o n w h a t y o u
are wanting to reactivate.

jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 111
From : u k
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-20-2001 06:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you can get 9m m para blanks in the uk which contain sm o k e l e s s p o w d e r a n d a r e t h e s a m e c a l i b e r a s s o m e s u b m a c h i n e g u n s
and pistols.

Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-20-2001 09:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ' v e b e e n l o o k i n g a t s o m e 9m m b l a n k s a n d I s e e m t o h a v e a c h o i c e o f r e g u l a r s a n d A u t o . Are the auto's tapered for use in
automatic loading weapons? I'd also think they're filled with sm okeless powder so that they don't foul the mechanism if they're
i n t e n d e d f o r a u t o m atics.

Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 04:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e b i g g e s t p r o b l e m I have had is finding prim er cups/anvils. W h e r e d o y o u g e t t h o s e m atches with the white tips from in the
UK ? I have never seen any.

Aggy
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 44
From :
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 09:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK you can buy primers, cases ,bullets and the m achine to put them together with out a license but you need a license
for the blackpowder.

Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 09:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you absoloutely sure about the prim ers etc ? It's an awful shame about needing a lice nce for black/sm okeless powder, but
I reckon buying prim ers would be great (just think of the fun you could have after extracting the LS/MF out of them ).

zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 12:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitter, are yo u serious? I guess you just want to know where to find the strike-anywhere m atches, for use in impro p rimers? All
the strike-an ywhere matches in the UK have red heads, ie: Swan Vestas, Cooks Matches, they are all strike anywhere m atches.
I'm pretty su re the white-tip m atches are just the same as the strike-anywhere m atches we have h ere. Just look for m atches
with a strip of glass paper on the side of the box and these will be the right ones.

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Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 01:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hat I was talking about were those m atches with a white tip. I thought the com mon pink strike-anywhere m atches were a
m ixture of the white 'igniter' p art m ixed with the red 'fuel' part, rather than them b e i n g s e p e r a t e . T h e s e s t r i k e - a n y w h e r e
m atches don 't seem to be anywhere near as sensitive as anyone claim s, so I assumed they were different...

zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 01:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, i know what you mean, but I'm positive it'd work, they ignite from being shot out of a pellet gun (ok, a little bit more
powerful than a ham mer) or you could use the toy caps from cap guns, just dissolve that in aceton e/whatever, and pput that in
the prim ers, i'm sure that they'd be pretty sensitive then. Maybe a little too sensitive thou gh. Check your m ail bitter.

zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 01:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, i know what you mean, but I'm positive it'd work, they ignite from being shot out of a pellet gun (ok, a little bit more
powerful than a ham mer) or you could use the toy caps from cap guns, just dissolve that in aceton e/whatever, and pput that in
the prim ers, i'm sure that they'd be pretty sensitive then. Maybe a little too sensitive thou gh. Check your m ail bitter.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > 12 Gague Flare gun
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megalomania May 24th, 2003, 03:01 PM


DaRkDwArF
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 258
From : Austra lia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-22-2001 08:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
o k I w a s t a k i n g a l o o k o n f i r e q u e s t . c o m and I noticed a 12ga flare gun, it looks very plastic like but I'm wo ndering if it could
hold the pressure of a real shotgun shell, also wonderin g how much of it is plastic...
any help will be greatly appreciated

PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From : s o m ewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-22-2001 09:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hell no! those things are flim sy as hell and flares put out wuss p ressure, that wou l d e x p l o d e i n y o u r h a n d I u s e d t o h a v e o n e
a n d t h e t h i n g b r o k e o n m e, (after a couple of shots) yo u could theoreticly load a shell by cutting off the narrow tip of the flare
gun but all I'd shoot is a blank a weak one at that. plus flares dont get that hot for that long so you'd be e ndangering your
gun as it might m elt. plus how are you going to deal with the recoil?
if I was gonn a g e t a h a n d h e l d shotgun I'd get a revolver .410 like the one in three kings. I think it is called a thunder 5

Agent Blak
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 766
From : S k . C a n a d a
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-22-2001 10:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not just fire flares. I bet you that shit would hurt plus you ca n get capsism ( O C ) r o u n d s f o r t h e m .

PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From : s o m ewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-22-2001 10:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont think a flare would hurt someon e that bad unless it hit them in the face, they are just little light card b o a r d b a l l s a n d
they dont go that fast they'd probably bounce off of you. I'd con s i d e r b e a r b a n g e r s o r c a p s a c i s u m r o u n d s b u t I ' d g e t a h o m e
m ade wad shooting g un with a brass flare gun the wads travel around 400 fps witch is 100 fps faster than p a i n t b a l l g u n s a n d
pepper spray can backfire majorly

Mad Dog
New Mem ber
Posts: 32
From :
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-22-2001 11:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was hit by a flare once from 50-60m away, the only result was slight pain and a burn patch on m y jacket.
------------------
If you kill som e o n e a nd it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?

SofaKing
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 399
From : YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-23-2001 05:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I tend to ag ree with the others who have alrea dy poste d, you could saftly test fire the gun by going to a secluded
spot strapping the fla regun to a tree with a string attached to the trigger and get bethind a DIFFERENT tree and pull. I doubt
that that would accom plish m ore than a wasted flare gun but know you know.
------------------
W ith Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom

DaRkDwArF
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 258
From : Austra lia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-24-2001 06:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hm m m perhaps OC rounds are the best best, deal with a group instead of using flares on individuals.
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what about replacing the barrel?
would it be able to stand one of NBK's shotgun grenades?
[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited April 24, 2001).]

EP
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 108
From : U SA
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-27-2001 01:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yu can buy "bird bom bs" specially m ade for 12 gauge flare guns that are for scaring birds. They are basically an m 80 that
shoots from a flare gun. Im sure a flare gun would blow apart with a real shell.

Bigfoot May 27th, 2003, 02:34 PM


I checked with firequest a while back--the frame and breech face are steel, the barrel is plastic.

www.guns2u.com sells an all-steel 12 ga flare gun as a self-defense pistol. If you can get one of those thru a friend in Europe,
m ore power to you.

T h e r e ' s a d u d e i n F L s e l l i n g a . 4 1 0 a d a p t e r f o r 2 5 m m flare guns, price is about USD$120.

P M J B v o l 2 h a s a q u i c k i e a b o u t m a k i n g a m ini .22 pistol using a 25m m f l a r e g u n , a n d a c o u p l e o f a d a p t e r s . I h a v e s e e n s u c h


a device tested. My own inclination is to use one of the sturdier steel flare guns from Russia, and adapters to fire 9m m P a r a or
.45 ACP. Testing is scheduled for July this year.

A bloke with access to a m illing m achine could probably duplicate the plastic flare barrel in s t e e l , t h e n u s e h o t l o a d s .
Ergo nomics will suck. Better to m ake zip gun with 3/4" pipe, lumber.

Edited to correct the link - Zaibatsu

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megalomania June 26th, 2003, 03:34 PM


The_Coyote
A new voice
Posts: 18
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 25, 2001 08:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone have plans for a homemade pistol to shoot .22 caliber amunition? Preferably .22 birdshot? I want to clear my feild of some rabbits, but there are some new
homes in a development across the street and I find birdshot to be the most silent ammo.
------------------
Gun control is being able to hit your target.

PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 25, 2001 08:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the most silent ammo you can get is subsonic, download angelo's files, I think there is a 4 winds shotgun in there, just make a sleeve for the 22 bullet or a small 4 winds
shotgun , beware zip guns arent the safest things in the world to hold in your hands

Crux
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 25, 2001 09:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the "Birdshots" are the one's i'm thinking of you will have a hard time killing a rabbit with them.
we had some and I was trying to shoot some crows with them. I must have been only 10m away and it wouldn't kill them..

BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 12:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
22 bird shot sucks period.
They use such small shot, that they have no power beyond about 10 feet!
At about 15 feet... they wont even puncture an empty soda can. The only use i have seen for them... is for against snakes. From the range of your hand.. to your feet
(keeping in mind not to shoot your feet) they do a lot of damage. Thats about all they are good for. If you are mowing the lawn, or fishing, hiking, etc.. they are good for
snakes.
Any other uses however.... forget it.

------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.

burugle
A new voice
Posts: 2
From: oslo,norway
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 26, 2001 03:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't use the .22 birdshot... It won't penetrate unless you get really close. If possible use a silenced .22 rifle, if not ordineary .22 ammo don't make mutch noice, so noone will
take any notice. Or you could try setting some snares. Works great on rabbits, rodents, neighbours cats ect.
-Good Luck!

BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 11:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, if you dont have any kids, I would recomend some non-explosive traps
But hey, shooting them is more fun, theres a few active topics about silencers.

just...remember where your traps are

richl261
Frequent Poster
Posts: 134
From: uk
Registered: MAR 2001
posted March 26, 2001 12:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not buy a .22 pistol? unless ure in england where every thing is illegal just buy an air gun to kill the rabbbits..

The_Coyote
A new voice
Posts: 18
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
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posted March 26, 2001 07:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can not buy them. I live in ontario where you can't get anything. Also I am 16 so I can not get one until I am 18. Also where I live no stores will sell them with out a shit load
of paper work... I don't know why though. It's a pellet gun for christ's sake!!!! And a .22 I can not get anywhere with all the licensing you have to go through, and you also
need to be 18. I might try my recurve or crossbow on them, but I can't aim worth shit.
------------------
Gun control is being able to hit your target.

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 770
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 10:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you live in Canada the is a store called Canadian Tire they sell so not bad stuff you only have to be 18(get you buddy or brother).

SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 26, 2001 11:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you end up improvising, and don't need a long barrel, check out the automotive shop scrap bins. There are some "push rods" used in some V-8 (Chrysler???) that are 22 cal
in ID. Use caution.

c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 27, 2001 12:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The push rods could be a good solution, provided they'll chamber a .22 cartridge. They're hardened, so the ball ends will have to be ground (not sawed) off. The interiors often
are encrusted with engine residues that can be quite tough to remove - try to find the cleanest ones and insure the bores are smooth before firing live rounds.
The strength should be more than okay. We used to use sections of auto antenna (brass and about .25 internal), and a .22 LR fit so loosely it had to be held in with scotch
tape. When these "weapons" were fired the shell case would expand to the larger diameter so tightly it would have to be hammered out using a ramrod. Accuracy was of
course nonexistent, but I never heard of any blowing up when properly constructed.

Very simple (disposable) guns can be made by taping the barrel(s) to a piece of wood and using a door "slidebolt" for the firing mechanism. A few heavy duty rubber bands
provide the "spring", and the bolt is drawn back and "cocked" in the slide notch. Just push the handle up out of the notch to fire. Multiple barrels are possible using this method,
provided they're aligned so the bolt hits a portion of all (firing is simultaneous). Not fancy, but effective and cheap.

[This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited March 27, 2001).]

PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 27, 2001 03:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you could buy a bang stick, I dont think they need a licence, then you solder a metal tube to the back of the part that screws onto the bullet, then to fire you slam hard on the
handle going through the tube withck you are holding. you might need to make a support for this though and they are wildly in accuarate

NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 27, 2001 03:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a quite nice improvised .22 gun.
It is made from a 6mm blank cartridge revolver using a 5,5mm steel pipe as barrel and a homemade silencer attached. It's not too accurate but it does the job.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Gun Plans - Archive File

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megalomania June 26th, 2003, 03:37 PM


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 13, 2001 05:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's some drawings from Will, one o f our resident lurkers. They m ay be factory diagram s and include the Germ a n P P S H 4 1
s u b m a c h i n e g u n a n d t h e T h o m s o n s u b m achine gun.
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza /2978/

Thanks Will

ossassin Novem ber 27th, 2003, 09:25 PM


The PPSH41 is actually Russia n . T h e s e a r e g o o d plans, but I wish they were in .pdf form at. How hard do you think it would be
to m ake the receiver for this thing? Maybe I should stick with guns that have sim ple receivers, like the Sten.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Homemade AR-7 type rifle

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A-BOMB July 16th, 2003, 10:41 AM


Well Its been awhile since I've posted anything about the guns I make, and this gun is going to be a good one so heres some specifics about it. I'm still waiting for some of the
parts. Well I'm going to buy the barrel/s from HERE (http://www .e-gunparts.com/featureproduct.asp?chrProductSKU=878300&Super=N&MC=YJ) Numrich has more gun parts
than God. And if you ask why about the rusty barrels it because I'm cheap and 5 for $19 you cant beat that.
And I'll be buying the metal tubes for the receiver/barrel block/bolt from here ww w.onlinemetals.com. I'll post my diagram in a minute right now I have to get some stuff out of
the drier before it rinkes.

knowledgehungry July 16th, 2003, 12:44 PM


Very nice site, thanks for posting it. What type of action is your gun going to be? bolt action? semi auto? full auto:D ? Sorry but im not familiar with AR7's.

A-BOMB July 16th, 2003, 01:57 PM


Its going to be a semi-auto in .22lr caliber but its to hard to explain right now I need to scan in my diagrams I'll get around to posting them later, it depents if I can finish this
damn VB course work.

Here is a picture of the parts I have currently aquired they are ontop of some of my schematics for the gun I'll scan them or take pictures of them soon.

HERE (ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/A-BOMB/Pcdv00054.JPG)

zaibatsu July 16th, 2003, 07:00 PM


Is it going to be blowback? Open or closed bolt? Are you making it so that you can dissemble/stow it aw ay in the stock like the AR7? AR7s look like fun rifles, I think you can
also buy them over here.

A-BOMB July 16th, 2003, 10:17 PM


Its going to be a closed bolt, blow back, semi-auto, Its going to be AR-7 like but will not be able to be disassabled its going to have a strong center pin on which the action and
barrel will fold on like a door hinge. I pull out the bolt that hold it in place and fold it back into a slot cut in the stock. I'm thinking of useing a mak-90 or AK thumb hole stock
because there big and look cool and real cheap like $16. And ya I could buy a AR-7 at a gun show or from there website but they offen have big problems, metal shaving left in
the chamber, bent parts, screw holes stripped, massive feed problems. I'm not saying that mine wont have these at first but in mine I'll have know I've built it myself, and it I'll
be cheaper too.

Charlie Workman July 18th, 2003, 03:31 AM


Sounds cool A-bomb. Love to see it when you're done. Personally, I hate the AR-7. Owned both the pistol and rifle versions and neither were reliable for shit. Most people I
talked to really like them, so maybe I got the bad ones. Had a manual on full-auto conversion for it, which I always thought was a giggle, since I could never get them to fire
more than two rounds on semi before they jammed.

"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"


-Gidget

A-BOMB August 4th, 2003, 10:02 PM


I just ordered the barrel, stock, receiver tube, bolt metal, springs, and other part that I didn't have. Since the barrels I w as going to order is out of stock I have to order this one
HERE (http://www .e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU= 586860). But the rest of the parts w ere in. Here is the metals I am going to use the .75"(ID) tube if for the rifle
and the .875"(ID) is for the SMG version which will need a heavier bolt to contain the recoil of the shorter length bolt that is needed in the SMG version. The SMG version is
going to be P-90'ish that it is going to be a bullpup unit w ith the mag over the barrel. Its even going to have bullets that are similar, .125" TI rod in a 5.45mm semi- dicarding
teflon sabot.
I should have the parts by Saturday or Sunday Monday the latest. But first I have to find a .375"(3/8") metal drill and get a new belt for my drill press.

https://ww w.onlinemetals.com/check_order_status.cfm?id=49500&step= 2

A-BOMB August 6th, 2003, 11:49 PM


Well I got the barrel and stock to day, and all I can say about the barrel is I HATE cosloimine grease it is the anti-christ lord of no come-offyness and stickyness it doesn't want
to come off! I used a couple of quarts of kerosen taking that shit off. And the stock has some dinks and nicks, and I'm happy with the files I got too, thought I did forget some
things one the order, I'll get the sight rail/scope rings later.

Here is a pic of the blue print because my scanner just bit the dust (I cracked the glass plate) perminatly so heres a pic.

angelo August 7th, 2003, 03:44 AM


A-BOMB have you ever used shellite. Its more expensive than kerosene but it does the job alot better.

Arkangel August 7th, 2003, 08:55 AM


I've not found any lubricant that acetone w on't dissolve in a jiffy

A-BOMB August 7th, 2003, 08:59 AM


Angelo, do you think this 'Shellite' it avalible in the US? And if it were, where do you think I w ould be able to find it,?

Well I got $18 dollars left on my prepayed credit card to use up any ideas, I borrowed the drill bits I'll need and the locking pins and cutoff w heels for my dremel tool. Oh that
reminds me I bought every thing w ith one of those new prepayed credit cards I got a CVS I think this thing is great you pay a $9 dollar one time fee and then can put any
amount from 20 to 500 on it. To recharge you just buy a recharge card for $4 and then put more money on it. Though you do have to call in and give them information on were
to send the card w ith you name/exp date/pin.

So anybody have any idea on what I could buy with it item+ shipping for $18 ?

GibboNet August 8th, 2003, 05:28 AM


Shellite is a spirit like metho, used for old style camping stoves. You'll find it at most camping / hardw are stores.

Also, w ould you mind explaining the pre-paid credit card ?

A-BOMB August 8th, 2003, 11:00 AM


Sure, I was a CVS( a chain drugstore over here in the US) picking up some candy and cold-packs, w hile I was at the counter getting rung up I saw the prepaid credit card. So I
bought one it has a $9.95 activation fee then I could put as much money on it as I w anted($20-$500) so I bought it for $90 dollars gave the man at the counter his money and
he activated the card and it temporary pin. I got home and opened up the papers that came with it I went to the website and read/accepted the end user aggrement. Entered in
my information address,phone,birthday etc etc etc. Then I called the number on the form, gave them the info again and then they gave me the new real pin number, exp date,
and security number and then they asked me if I wanted to upgrade etc etc etc and other shit, then said I'd get the real card w ith the data on it in 7 to 10 days and that I could
use that temporary card online till the real card comes, that will allow me to use it in a real store(the temp card has a one time use magnetic strip).

It w as a bit of a hassle but hell its easies than sending a check, to recharge the card you just buy a recharge card for $4 and then add more money to the account, and there is
a $4 monthly service charge but aleast I'm not paying intrest anymore+ the monthly charge so I works for me for how little I use it.

check out www .mymccard.com to see more

angelo August 9th, 2003, 06:02 AM


Well I know shell produces it. I do believe its proper name is x-55 petroleum spirit. But I'd have to check for you. We recently bought a 200 litre drum of it at work.
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I don't think acetone would be very safe. Sure it will dissolve anything, but that includes your hands. Be careful Arkangel.

A-BOMB August 12th, 2003, 11:30 PM


The metal tube for the reciever was suppost to come today but the the UPS guy got lost and called me for directions, he said that me address must not exist because he could
not find it. Then he reads me the address and its the right address and I tell him its right, and he said I was wrong about that. Then I tell him if my address doesn't exist then
how am I on the phone w ith you from it now. Then he asks me for directions, so he can deliver it the next day because his shift is over. :mad: I'm thinking of killing him and
taking his truck tommarrow , I wonder how much goodies would be inside?

chemwarrior August 13th, 2003, 04:25 AM


Hehe, A-Bomb.. killing him might be a little extreme... but tying him up and leaving him in the w oods.....

Also, I have one of those pre-paid credit cards too.. They work w onders when your under 18:)

A-BOMB August 13th, 2003, 03:54 PM


The metal Tubes just came! Let the production begin! But there is one thing wrong with my order when I talked to the guy from the store I he told me the tube would be
seamless, well its welded seam tube I will just take me some time to grind it out with a file. I should be able to start it this evening right now I got to sleep, I've been up for the
last 23 hours clearing the w ater and shit (real shit) out this house I was rentovating the main sew age line broke,up in a wall on the second floor and it ran down throught the
walls dow n into the basement.

A-BOMB August 14th, 2003, 11:03 PM


I just cut the 12 gauge plate steel for the low er receiver and bent in the flanges for w elding, have ground the seams out of the pipe and have started adding metal to the
outside of the barrel with my MIG, as the barrel is sightly less than .75" on the outside so I have to add more metal then grind it aw ay to make it fit in perfectly. I should have
the bolt started soon and the extractors, firing pin, and sear finished soon too.

A-BOMB October 17th, 2003, 09:04 PM


I haven't updated my progress in a long while so here it goes I have finish milling out the trigger group and drilled the respective holes in the lower and have finished the bolt
and have gotten it hand cycling shell semi-reliably just need final polishing. Soon I w ill have to take all the parts over my budies metal shop to have them heat treated, harden
and blued then comes fire testing.

NickSG October 17th, 2003, 11:48 PM


Cant w ait to hear the results. Make sure to get some good pictures too! :)

A-BOMB December 4th, 2003, 01:44 PM


Well here is a update I have to make a new trigger group and alot of other stuff now , I got it out to the range and terror strikes, I load a shell up and it fires so far so good, I
load up 2 shell and they fire once with each pull of the string then I load up the whole clip of 21 this is w hen the bad happens, It seems that the sear slowly falls down after
holding the striker for awhile, I get up and go over to the bench w ere I got the gun bolted to and I look through my spotting scope at the target to see were I hit it and the gun
just goes full auto on me. One of the shells mis-chambers and fires in the action blow ing out the rear receiver plug, springs, striker and bolt out the rear of the receiver into me
as I'm over the gun looking through the scope. Well the damage is bad I need to cut off the chamber section of the barrel and rechamber it. Grind out the gouges out of the
face and sides of the bolt, grind out the cuts out of the receiver then I'll need to see if I need to make a new receiver or if this one can be salvaged. And redesign the trigger
group and make a new set and harden them. So after this I find the internals and servey the damage and packup everything to get home as I'm driving home I see this estate
sale so I stop by, and god I wish I got there earlier, I mean this guy w ould have be a perfect member, he had so much stuff guns, paintball markers, rockets, RC cars/planes/
boats, a big lab room with every thing we would ever want electronics, chem equipment, metal w orking equipment, and a shit load of military surplus. I wish I could of bought it
all. I wish I could of bought the entire house! But there is never enough money w hen you need it :mad: I only was able to get this box with all this paintball stuff and a bunch
of electronic and a military gear harness set kind of think and a bunch of D rocket motors. But I may be able to use some of the paintball gun stuff especialy this E-trigger that
what is the box. If I can get it to work and fit I will have a semi,3rd burst, and full-auto functions.

Jacks Complete December 5th, 2003, 04:58 PM


Oh, shit!

Lucky for you you hadn't gone forward to change the target!

Did you get hit by anything?

A-BOMB December 5th, 2003, 11:06 PM


I got a finger nail torn off and some metal fragments from the case in my right hand right now so I'm typing lefty, I'll dig out my surgical kit later and dig them out some time
right now it just give me an excuse to not be at work. The most damage was to the rifle I'll heal quicker than the rifle will.

xyz December 5th, 2003, 11:46 PM


Very sorry to hear that A-BOMB, looking forward to seeing the AR-7 w henever you eventually get round to finishing it.

Next time a newbie posts a stupid thread about how they want to make a homemade firearm, give them the link to this post so that they can see what .22LR can do to an
experienced member.

That should make them think twice about wanting to make a .308 or a .50BMG...

A-BOMB December 8th, 2003, 11:26 AM


Well I thought about it and I'm going to rebuild the rifle into a bullpup design like in this draw ing, I have looked at the e-trigger and it is lacking in sear strength so it is out but
one of the other triggers will w ork so i'll use that. the lower draw ing is was the gun looked like before the upper one is what the gun will look like after I'm done rebuilding.

Jacks Complete December 8th, 2003, 01:11 PM


A-BOMB,

are you going to list the notations? It would help! :)

Nice idea.

A-BOMB December 8th, 2003, 01:36 PM


Sorry about that forgot

A: Barrel
B: Trigger/trigger guard
C: Stock
D: Clip
E: Clip relese
F: Stock again
G: Buttplate relese
H: trigger group
I: Buttplate
J: Receiver/recoil and firing pin springs
K: Firing pin/extractor
L: Bolt

I got the idea for remaking it a bullpup from the fact that the stock is now gouged out were the receiver was before I would looke neater as a bullpup, So I'm going to put the
stock on my bandsaw and cut it in tw o then I will hollow out the sections of each side to acommindate the receiver and mechinisms

Ammonal December 9th, 2003, 07:43 AM


Just throw ing ideas around A-BOMB, I am working on Bill Holmes .22 Machine pistol at the moment and I have had to improvise a couple of things because I lack a mill. I like
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your idea of converting to bullpup, but I have one concern with bullpup firearms (yes I have experience w ith the Steyr AUG, and the only thing besides that the weapon is made
out of plastic) is that the action is right beside your face. Because of this I am making double of each part for the machine pistol in the hope that once I get the standard layout
working w ell, I would like to try a bullpup version. The only difference is that I have made all of the upper reciever alot heavier (3mm wall DOM seamless) and the endcap is
12mm thick with a 6mm pin holding it into the end of the upper reciever.
Earlier in this thread you spoke about making a P90'ish model, and as I am lacking in high capacity magazines and they are extremely difficult to come by, I was wondering if
you had any information or diagrams of the magazine system used in the P90

A-BOMB December 9th, 2003, 11:33 AM


The P-90 uses a horizontal double stack maginzine with a rotating section on the rear to line the bullets up w ith the barrel. The P-90ish unit is on the shelf for right now (to much
stuff to do) but the clip I made w as just a of rectangular tube that the case of the shell (minus case rim) fit into then another tube that the first could fit in, I cut the rear off of
the tubes so they could fit inside each other then I spaced them apart so the rim of the .22 fit then I drilled and put in the pin in the end so It folds open for loading after the
spring follower is pulled back and locked, (look at the drawing. One thing you see is the curved part on the end of the clip that part turns the shell to be inline with the barrel.
But there is one thing that I couldn't draw effectively and that is the spring steel ends on the clip they keep the shells out of the turning section of the clip till it is inserted into
the weapon there two metal rod push back the springs and allow the shells into the turning section and the weapn.

A: pin
B: Spring
C: Spring Follower

Ammonal December 9th, 2003, 05:58 PM


Thanks A-BOMB that looks so much easier than trying to backwards engineer a picture of a P90 magazine! I have a day off so I'll try making one today (i have a pile of RHS
tubing which should be handy). One other thing w hat do you use for your magazine springs, do you use the normal music w ire DIY springs or have you got another method for
them? I have just had the suggestion made to me by a good friend of mine to use clock spring that is the flat strips of spring steel and fold them into a long ?/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\| 'W' spring. I tried this and it worked extremely well in a 15 round .22 magazine. You just get your clock spring, heat it and let it cool, fold into shape (some
smooth mouth pliers w ork well) and the retemper it by heating it to cherry red and dunking in oil, then sand a small section til it is shiny and reheat the spring to the straw
colour and dunk it in oil again and it is ready for use. I have covered some old ground there about the tempering, but the information on the spring was just worth sharing.

A-BOMB December 10th, 2003, 11:46 AM


I went out to my local DIY store and got some long springs ment as replacement for the long springs in the clips on a staple gun. If you got the time and equipment you can
make a helical mag by taking to pieces of round tube one smaller than the other and cutting a sloped spiral slot into it (list a screw) and then cutting a piece of sheet metal into
a spiral that can fit around the smaller pipe to line up with the slot then mig weld it in place. Then mill out a block that has a curve on the bottom to match the angle of the
sheet steel now take a piece of round rod stock that fits inside of the smaller pipe and drill and tap a hole in it to fit a bolt inbetw een the curved block and the round block
insided the smaller pipe, now take a long strongish spring and put in inside of the smaller pipe so it pushes the blocks up along the spiral shell ramp. Now put the w hole asembly
into the larger pipe and seal off the one end with a end cap or something else that is removeable. Now is a much harder part you got to make the end shell ramp by cutting and
welding together sheet steel, this is one alot harder then w hat I have now so I scrapped this idea, but if you want you could try it and see how it goes.

DimmuJesus January 8th, 2004, 02:08 AM


By the time you have this finished, how much do you think it will have cost you total to build? This sounds like it may turn out to be quite a gun! If this works out, are you
considering using a similar design for larger calibers? With the select-fire function, what do you anticipate the rate of fire being? And one final question, will this only take mags
made for the AR-7?

Jacks Complete January 8th, 2004, 02:50 PM


A-BOMB,
I think you got B & C reversed on the mag diagram.

How does the P-90 magazine feed the last round? It doesn't seem like it would w ork with the follower you have drawn, as there are no more rounds to push it beyond the
mouth of the stack. Do you get rounds falling out when you take off a full mag? How do the two pins re-engage?

A-BOMB January 8th, 2004, 06:21 PM


I didn't notice that simstake before, Well the mag in the draw ing is for my smg that I was making but right now the smg is shelfed, Now on to the clip the pins have sheet steel
springs on them to put the pins back in place. I never finished the smg but right now , when you load a mag 3 rounds are inside the receiver(2 in the mag w ell and one in
chamber) to keep mag in place the are 2 ball bearing locks they are in the chamber just enough to hold the 3 shell in and gravity draws them into them chamber. So if I put a
full mag of 28 rounds in and i remove it w ithout firing I w ill have 25 round left in the clip.

U.S.M.C-Man March 7th, 2004, 02:31 PM


This might help you with this (see link below). I think a scratch-built AR 7 scaled up to 9mm would be awsome.

http://ww w.roderuscustom.tzo.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s= 404b5fa503f0ffff;act=ST;f= 23;t=92 .

- U.S.M.C-Man

A-BOMB April 1st, 2004, 01:56 PM


As of now my AR-7 prototype is dead, I'll be w orking on a new model soon but my first is just a lost cause, Its going to the shelf of forever putoff projects and the SMG version
maybe coming back from the dead. I found out that my prototype could not work reliably for any period of time before a case w ould rupture in the chamber, because of my
design. So I am now working on a new type of action which I call a semi-bolt. The new design w ill use a hexagonal receiver, w hich will mate w ith my barrel better allowing for
more accurcy(sp). The action utillizes a closed locking bolt, w here a bending bolt handle/dust cover folds forw ard and locks into the ejection port on the receiver after the bolt is
released. Locking the bolt inplace till the bolt handle is gripped and pulled back unfolding the dust cover/bolt handle and unlocking the bolt from the receiver. Once the bolt is
drawn to the end the empty case is ejected and hammer recocked. The bolt handle is released and the return spring rams the bolt forward putting another shell in the chamber
and relocking the bolt unit inplace. I will be posting a diagram once I'm done drawing it to explain the princible.

Nico April 6th, 2004, 01:54 PM


For those of you who have had trouble with 'genuine' AR-7's working properly, here is an article by someone who was able to w ork out the kinks: http://
w w w.alpharubicon.com/leo/ar7gm32.htm

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > How to m a k e a
silencer?

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f8l3rr0r S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 05:21 PM


How to m a k e a c u s t o m m a d e s i l e n c e r f o r a R e m i n g t o n 7 1 0 M o d e l . 3 0 - 0 6 rifle?

A-BOMB S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 05:28 PM


T h i s h a s b e e n d i s c u s e d s o m any tim e its not funny, you should of searched and you would of prob ably found what you were
look ing for. And neve r post a topic on first post bye-bye.

Mr Cool S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 06:26 PM


http://www.boom s p e e d . c o m /m rcool/O h_god.jpg

nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 2 6th, 2003, 02:10 AM


Lyrics for the NBK rem ix of "Bullet in your head" by Rage against the Machine"

This tim e the bullet cold rocked ya


A Nazi admin saluting the swastika
Nothing proper about the ZOG propaganda
k3wlz, read the rules when a mod comm a n d s y a

The Forum stays blue


when your blood is shed
That's how you got a bullet blasted through your HED

Blasted through your HED


Blasted through your HED

I give a shit about the now-be-HED

Stood and watched as your account de-atomize d


"BANNED!" on your screen
You was m e s m e r i s e d

Am e r i c a O n l i n e s o u n d i n ' a d e a t h t o n e
Adm in's turned ya to stone before ya realised

He loads the clip in "all colors"


Said "they waste our tim e, I waste them in no tim e"
H e ' s p a s s i n g g a s , h i s h o m e was like Alcatraz
A n d m u t h a f u cker's lost his m ind

Another victim of the in-house drive-by


I say jum p, you'd best say how high
Yeah
Just a victim o f a n i n - h o u s e d r i v e - b y
I say banned, you go bye-bye
Run bitch!

(Guitar solo)

Just a victim of the in -house drive-by


I say jum p, you'd best say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
I say banned, they go bye-bye

Check-a, check-a, check it out


NBK loads the clip in "all color"
Says "they waste our time, I waste them in no tim e "
H e ' s p a s s i n g g a s , h i s h o m e was like Alcatraz
A n d m u t h a f u cker's lost his m ind

No k3wlz escape from Ned's ass-rape


Play it again Mega and then rewind the tape
And then play it again and again and again
Until the fools m ind is locked in

Believin' all the lies TO TSE's tellin' ya


Buyin' all the stories that they're sellin' ya
T h e y s a y " b o m b z " a n d ya say how |-|!@H
Ya brain-dea d
Ya gotta fuckin' bullet in ya HED

Another victim of the in-house drive-by


I say jum p, you'd best say how high
Yeah
Just a victim o f a n i n - h o u s e d r i v e - b y
I say banned, they go bye-bye

Uggh! Yeah! Yea!

2 weeks in line
Passing the tim e
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Ya waited, to o b a d
Ya gotta a bullet in ya HED

A bullet in ya HED (8 tim es, building to a shout)


A bullet in ya HED (7 tim e s , s h o u t e d / s c r e a m e d )
Ya gotta bullet in ya fuckin' HED!
Yeah!
PUNK! (Sustained to end of drum roll)

:D

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > I need a receiver diagram!

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xmarinevet October 25th, 2003, 12:24 AM


I was wondering if anyone could help in finding a receiver diagram for a sten sub. I've found like twenty that look like they were drawn by a twelve year old kid and the ones
n the pmjb book series suck. I want something that I can print out and paste on a piece of tube, cut with a torch, drill holes, sand, and put on my parts kit. If any body has
any links to any cheap homemade subguns that would be helpful too. I have the one by luty and metrel, I hope to atempt them soon. Thanks

irish October 25th, 2003, 12:49 AM


Mod's,
is it ok to post a link to a gunsmithing forum here ? I remember NBK going through someone for posting links to other forums.

xyz October 25th, 2003, 02:19 AM


I beleive there are receiver diagrams for all kinds of pistols, rifles, and SMGs on the FTP.

Irish, I think NBK was only doing that because they were advertising the other forum and their post was solely for that purpose. You should be OK posting a link for the purpose
of spreading information.

Ammonal October 25th, 2003, 06:36 AM


Hey xmarinevet, I had these plans on my hard drive, they look like it would be feasible to make a sten from them. I might one day but I got no 9mm ammo so...

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instructions.pdf

xyz October 25th, 2003, 07:27 AM


IIRC even if you do have access to 9mm ammo (unlikely in Australia) there is a very slight difference between the 9mm ammo for pistols and the 9mm ammo for SMGs.

Before anyone starts an argument, I know that pistols and subs both fire the 9mm parabellum round but I have heard on this forum that 9mm pistol ammo will cause jams in
SMGs and I have also seen a handgun manufacturers website where there were specific safety instructions not to fire 9mm SMG ammo in that manufacturer's handguns.

The only way that I can think of for you to get 9mm SMG ammo in Australia is for you to buy once fired SMG brass from the military or someone else, then reload the ammo
yourself.

I know that to buy 9mm ammo you have to have a license with a 9mm weapon recorded on it but do you need this for buying 9mm reloading components? You would need a
license for buying the reloading components of course but I am not sure if you need a license with a 9mm recorded on it.

You could always buy a rifle chambered for any small pistol round so that you can buy primers and powder, buy once fired brass, and cast your own bullets.

zaibatsu October 25th, 2003, 07:36 AM


Check www.roderuscustom.tzo.com I think this is probably the group Irish is referring to, it's very good although I don't have enough time for it at the moment.

blacktalon October 25th, 2003, 07:15 PM


I have heard people talking about SMG ammo a lot. The difference is the powder used. Long barreled SMG's can make better use of a slower burning powder. Pistols and short
barreled SMG's need to have as much powder burned in a very short time however, so they require a faster burning powder. (duh) There is no real difference in jamming
however. If you have a Jam-O-Matic like a Mac-10, it will jam with pistol or SMG ammo.
Now to the origional topic. Why do you need precision blueprints for a Sten? It is a crude gun. Your precision blueprints would be about the only precision part of the firearm.
They were made in bike shops during WWII. Most people make their Stens with a Dremal and they work fine. Why put the extra effort into it?

xyz October 25th, 2003, 10:36 PM


blacktalon, yes, the SMG in question was a MAC-11:)

So you should be alright with using 9mm pistol ammo in a sten then, especially if you were to shorten the barrel.

xmarinevet October 25th, 2003, 11:31 PM


Yeah I have to agree stens are pretty crude but I have enough parts kits that I can make some serious dough if I can make some impressive guns. SMG's just arent the type of
thing that you see around here everyday and I've had some pretty good offers made by some local yokals. If anybody knows any better recievers for cheap parts kits I would
really appreciate it. I've heard an AK is about the simplest buy I cant find blueprints.

xyz October 25th, 2003, 11:55 PM


There are several sets of AK blueprints on the FTP along with a detailed guide on assembling AK and RPK weapons.

xmarinevet October 26th, 2003, 12:07 AM


I tried to get on the ftp but i put the wrong user number or something and told i was denied for lieing.

JDAM October 26th, 2003, 01:02 AM


I hope that you are actually ignorant of the federal law against making machine guns without being a licensed manufacturer, even then anything made after 1986 is not legal
for pvt ownership...Its not like us legal gun owners need people making it tougher to keep the feds and shit off our backs. It only takes one dumb MFer to open his trap or go
flashing it and there it is on the news and in the paper with anti's spewing how we need confiscation and registration. Not to mention anything done illegally with said weapons
would also make you involved in additional charges.

JDAM

irish October 26th, 2003, 01:53 AM


zaibatsu, that is the forum I was referring too they have some very good info on there.
As for reloading components, in Australia you don't need a licence to buy them but some places may be a bit funny about selling powder and primers, there are no records kept
for anything exept for gun's so you will be ok buying components or live ammo with or without a licence (if you can find somewhere that will sell to you without one) you will
not go on record as having got a lot of 9mm ammo :) .

xyz October 26th, 2003, 01:21 AM


Irish, from a what a friend wtih a firearm license tells me, you not only need to have a license for buying ammo, you also need to own a licensed weapon of that calibre (all
the weapons you own are recorded on your license).
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But I think that all you need to buy reloading components is a firearm license of any kind.

But all this may only be for my state of course.

If what you say is true about ammo without a license, you may be able to order your ammo online from somewhere else in the country.

xmarinevet October 26th, 2003, 01:35 AM


Send me a money order and a list and I'll mail the ammo to you. Or the powder, primers, and lead. It must really suck living in a place with gun control that strict.

Ammonal October 26th, 2003, 09:29 AM


In 7 days time there is a local sports store / gunshop that is closing. Because of this they have excellent discounts on ammo and reloading equipment and are not "in the
mood" for asking lots of questions. I can see myself not running short on ammo in the short term if I jump at the opportunity ;)...

xyz October 26th, 2003, 09:35 AM


xmarinevet, no thanks. Trying to post 9mm ammo or components to Australia is just asking for trouble. A form is needed for importing ammo or ANY components of it (be it
primers, powder, cases, or projectiles, even airpellets) and you also have to seek approval from the firearms branch of the police.

I am willing to bet 10Kg of RDX that the recipient of the ammo would have ASIO, customs, and the local cuntstabulary bashing their door down in a matter of days.

irish October 26th, 2003, 05:28 PM


xyz, Sorry I didn't make it very clear what I was saying (big night saturday night :D , what your friend told you is correct but to buy ammo you only have to show them your
licence to prove you have one they don't make any sort of record as to who bought what etc.
They may not sell pistol ammo if you only have a A or B licence though some of them are a bit suss about that.

Components you don't need a licence for, if you do reload go to a pistol range and get a bag of once fired 9mm shells (single flash hole only) they will cost next to nothing also
get a good reloading manuel don't improvise with powder loads til you know what you are doing as far as pressure goes.
You will be able to improvise everything exept for the powder measures (unless you weigh every load one at a time)

xyz October 26th, 2003, 07:09 PM


irish, I am not the one who was wanting 9mm ammo anyway, I was suggesting ways of obtaining it to Ammonal.

There is plenty of good reloading data available online at powder manufacturers websites. Go to www.adi-limited.com for loading data for ADI powders, which should be
available almost everywhere is Australia.

If you want to buy pistol ammo with an A or B license, just get a lever action cowboy rifle or a TC contender chambered for pistol calibres (you can have a contender with
multiple barrels chambered for multiple pistol calibres).

Spartin13 October 26th, 2003, 07:36 PM


Hi please forgive me for asking this question (I'm new to this board and have tried to watch to learn) I was wondering what is FTP that has been refered to in this thread?
Thank You

xyz October 27th, 2003, 05:12 AM


The FTP is a service provided to some forum members that is now hosted by chemwarrior (it used to be hosted by Ctrl_C), where members can upload, share, and download
books and information about explosives and weapons.

There is a form to apply for an FTP account that can be filled out on the main roge science page, but you have to have been a member for a while and proven your worth
before you will be granted access.

xmarinevet October 28th, 2003, 02:51 AM


Thanks to everyone who contributed. The damn things do jam. I even half loading the magizine but after 5 or 6 shots it usually jammed. I say piss on it. Any body got any
idea how to make one semi auto. If I can figure out how I guess I'll just sell the parts or make a bolt action or something.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Needin m 79 blueprints!

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xmarinevet October 27th , 2003, 03:20 AM


Any body got any idea where to find blueprints for a m7 9. I'm considering it for a next project.

sammy October 27th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 2 : 5 6 P M


you can purchace blueprints / schem atics of the m -79 40m m grenade lancher at
http://www.e-gunparts.com /schem atics.asp hope this helps..........

xmarinevet October 28th , 2003, 02:44 AM


Thanks but why buy what you can find for free. rodderscustom s has a section in their forum where you can freely download p df
blue prints or what ever. I found som e 203 blue prints and I'm gonna see what I can do to im provise to m 79. I like the m 7 0
look whole lot better. Anybody interested in the finished prints let m e know.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > eMachineShop

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bipolar S e p t e m b e r 1 3th, 2004, 10:54 PM


I found a pretty cool thing I thought a lot of yall might be interested in for improvised weapons. It's an online m a c h i n e s h o p
with a very easy to use CAD program of its own. You just design anything and the y have C NC m achines of all types to do what
ever you want. http://www.em a c h i n e s h o p . c o m

You design it, it autom atically gives yo u a quote, you put in credit card info and it ships th e exact part you designed right to
your door. I think it is kind of expensive though. But yo u could concievably get a whole machine gun built this way. Like one of
Bill Bill holm es guns or you could use this for som e harder parts or whatever. You could probably easily get ar-15 m-16
receivers made this way. Just use the blueprints on biggerham m er.net

I was putting in the upper receiver of the .22 m achine p istol but i decided that would be pretty easy to do m y s e l f , b e c a u s e I
a m getting a m illing m a c h i n e s o o n . I t o o k p a r t o f a m a c h i n e s h o p c l a s s a t t h e l o c a l c o m m unity college. I a m t a k i n g a n
Autodesk Inventor 6(which I h ave a copy of) co urse next week. On inventor you can actually set mechanical assem blies in
m otion to test them out virtually and design in 3D.

ninja42 S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2004, 06:16 AM


You really think they will m ake any part of a firearm?
I usually have a lot of trouble thinking of an inconspicuous use of parts that I
let a m a c h i n e s h o p m a k e .
A barrel or a framepa rt is easily disguised as an engine part but ham mers,grips and bolts are usually well known to an
experienced machinist.

I think parts aren't shipped worldwide.

ninja.

nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2004, 06:22 PM


You could use it for som e t h i n g .

Parts for a biological agent disperser? Nozzles for HV rockets? There's always som ething. :)

Jacks Complete January 17th , 2005, 11:41 AM


J u s t a s a s m a l l u p d a t e . I d o w n l o a d e d t h e d e m o program , and it is a very neat little program for doing 3D CAD, and working
out what type of processes, etc. you will need.

However, the prices! $450 was about as low as I could g et for a sim ple steel "barrel" m achined from c h e a p m i l d s t e e l b a r , a n d
turned down. It wasn't even funny. It was a large bore, and a short length (10cm ), so would have taken anyone with a lathe
five minutes to bore and then another ten to polish. I g ave up at that point. I didn't waste m y tim e trying to see if there was a
way to rifle the barrel. U nless it is going to be a m ajor investm ent, it seem s that the costs for a on e-off are too high, and the
set-up charges are quite vast.

bipolar January 18th , 2005, 11:29 AM


Yeah, I also noticed that the prices were outrageous. you'd definently be better off going to a local m achine shop or finding
o n e o n l i n e a n d g e t t i n g to know the guy who works there or som e t h i n g . a n d j u s t u s e a n o n y m o u s e m ail,tracphone, or som eth ing
to contact him and pay with cash or m oney order and don't tell him your real nam e.

usually the m achine shop types at least in m y area are all gun owner, hunting types. I took part of a m achine shop class at
the local com munity college and all of them were wearing cam o p a n t s a n d f r o m out in the country.

Jacks Complete January 18th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 2 : 3 0 P M


Hehehe. Probably because they are the only people who have room for two lathes, a wood lathe, a m illing m a c h i n e , p e d a s t a l
grinder and two welders, and then actu ally get in the room !

For the prices eMachine charge, I kid you not, you could buy a sm all lathe and use it for two parts. You would have saved a
little m oney, and still have a good little lathe.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > My expedient smg

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xload September 18th, 2004, 12:18 PM


I bought "expedient 9mm sumbachine gun" book by P.A Luty and I'm making this smg.
My webpage is http://es.geocities.com/subfusil_asalto/
Please send me ideas or comments.
thanks

tdog49 September 19th, 2004, 09:21 PM


I was wondering when you'd come back...
I am really looking forward to pics and possibly a movie showing it firing when you finish the smg. till then good luck and keep
us posted.

aikon September 20th, 2004, 03:47 AM


Nice to see that you're back xload. I check your page regularly to see if there's any progress. Good Luck.

Trigger Mike September 20th, 2004, 07:15 AM


Is there any chance of being able to scan the book and make it availlable for download?Is it on the FTP already?I'd be
interested in reading it and following your project to see how it turns out,xload.Good luck.

aikon September 20th, 2004, 08:23 AM


To Trigger Mike: The book can be found on the FTP in the Weapon's folder. Its about 33MB.

xload September 20th, 2004, 11:54 AM


I read a lof ot books about homemade weapons, but Luty books are really a homemade weapon, luty weapons are very easy
to make.
I only needed a lathe for a few pieces, beacuse i can't found some pieces in Spain and to make the barrel (I bought a blank
rifled barrel in Ebay, arround $ 30 us)
I'm making some parts to the bolt, beacuse it's the most important piece (with the barrel) and i'm making it carefully.
I will put at my webpage and roguesci ftp the test firing video beacuse i can't found any videos or pictures of this improvised
weapon.

MMIV September 22nd, 2004, 05:05 AM


I was thinking of making the smg in .22 instead of 9mm, cuz the ammo in the Oz would b hard 2 get and attract attention cuz
they r 4 handgun, which u need a license.

On the other hand i thought of making cases from metal/brass rod in lathe.

tdog49 September 22nd, 2004, 11:38 AM


trigger,
1. You can also purchase the book here:
http://www.paladin-press.com/
2. And there is a .32/.380 version here:
http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/bookadvert.html
3. bonus! #2 link has plans for single shot silenced .22lr and single shot 12ga pistol for free.

MMIV,
1. Bill Holmes has a .22lr book that can be found on the ftp or at the 1st link above.
2. wont say that making your own cases is a bad idea,but.... it is TMW.
Too Much Work..... Your looking at CNC type tolerances that you'll have to keep too. If you can afford CNC machinery, you can
afford 9mm brass.....(licensed or not)

xload September 22nd, 2004, 02:48 PM


trigger,
1. You can also purchase the book here:
http://www.paladin-press.com/
2. And there is a .32/.380 version here:
http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/bookadvert.html
3. bonus! #2 link has plans for single shot silenced .22lr and single shot 12ga pistol for free.

MMIV,
1. Bill Holmes has a .22lr book that can be found on the ftp or at the 1st link above.
2. wont say that making your own cases is a bad idea,but.... it is TMW.
Too Much Work..... Your looking at CNC type tolerances that you'll have to keep too. If you can afford CNC machinery, you can
afford 9mm brass.....(licensed or not)

Bill Homes weapons are very very difficult to make (you need a milling machine, a lathe, a lot of patient and time)
P.A luty guns are really expedient guns.

I live in spain (here it's ilegal buy or sell weapons or ammo) but i bought some army bullets (friends or firends of firneds ;)
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arroun $6 50 box )

shadow2501 September 23rd, 2004, 05:34 AM


i agree with MMIV a .22 is more useful in many countries it's the only ammo that should be legally bought by thousands
without attracting attention but isn't there instructions at the end of book for making other caliber barrels?

MMIV September 23rd, 2004, 11:20 PM


isn't there instructions at the end of book for making other caliber barrels?

yes there is but you would need to do modifications to the mag,spring and the the upper and lower receiver so they feed
correctly. Which this is no probelms and this modification will make the smg more useful intead of being a paper weight.

THAT Dude September 28th, 2004, 02:26 PM


If you want to by a barrel you should go to http://www.centerfiresystems.com/index.htm
They sell parts kits for many different guns(calibers) with good rifled barrels.
I bot a sten gun parts kit to make into a blank fireing submachine gun.
Then when it got to me I relised that I just mail ordered a rifled barrel no questions asked. :p It had never doned me be for
how easy it is to order a chambered barrel. ;) (sten gun parts kit are no longer listed but you can still order them #64STEN ...
$39.97) Hope this is of use to someone.

raptor1956 October 1st, 2004, 06:58 PM


I was thinking of making the smg in .22 instead of 9mm

I agree with rounds being hard to get in Oz but they are about if you look. The problem with building Luty's weapon in .22
would be eliminating hang-ups with the .22LR case during feeding. Bill Holmes claims to have eliminated this with his bolt
design, but then you are getting right away from Luty's concept for a truly homemade smg and starting to add lathe and
milling proceedures to the project.

ozboy August 3rd, 2006, 09:50 AM


If you have a cat B licence in OZ, you should probably look at making it to fire .38 special ammo.

This shouldn't arouse suspision because there are leaver action rifles which fire .357 magnum / .38 special ammo.

If you have a cat A, or no licence, consider yourself stuffed, or if you're not a prohibited person, go and get a cat B licence.

Then you can buy as much ammo as you want, just tell them your going on a long hunting trip up north and need to stock up.

Jacks Complete August 3rd, 2006, 10:40 AM


Sadly, the .38/.357 and .44 are/is a rimmed cartridge, same as the .22, so the feeding issues remain. This is why they are in
use for U/L rifles, rather than semi.s. 9mm or .45 on the other hand might be available, either from military or police ranges.

ozboy August 4th, 2006, 08:37 AM


Jacks Complete is right about the feeding problem issue, especially in full auto. You might be able to get away with it in a
semi-auto.

To add to the problem of trying to make P.A. Luttys desing into .22 rimfire, you would have to use a different (lighter) spring
and breech block.

festergrump August 4th, 2006, 10:02 AM


The only problem I can foresee with the problem of rimmed ammo for a full auto would be finding high capacity magazines,
especially in the calibers mentioned above (and possibly extending the feed ramp to make it less obtuse of an angle?).

The 7.62 X 54R is rimmed and was employed by the Ruskies in FA applications for quite some time, IIRC. If not FA, then
definitely semi-auto, but not much difference when bump firing, something which has been done with rimmed rounds very
often.

Care still needed to be taken when loading these to ensure the rim of the top round was not behind that of the cartridge
beneath it or a jam would be inevitable.

Making your own mags could be troublesome to the DIYer, but not out of the question entirely. A much tighter radius would be
needed for the mag, I think, giving it more of a 'banana' look in design. I'm seeing that the Ruger 10-22 FA conversion has
been working well for many for a long time, and while it employs a funky rotary wheel at the top of the magazine it can easily
be found in hicap models. Seems possible, at least.

Joining of two or more magazines to increase ammo capacity via MIG or TIG welding is something that has often been
accomplished in the past, too. Smooth insides and much longer custom spring are a must, but the original follower can be
used. [EDIT: No longer speaking of Ruger 10-22 mags here... They're made of plastic. Many others arent, though.

My whole point is that .22LR FA or other rimmed round FA is very do-able, you just need to think outside the box a little bit
and not need to rely on following Mr. Luty's designs exactly. Modification and experimentation are devine... neccesity is the
mother of invention, ect, ect... You can see examples of invention overcoming caliber obstacles in these three links (though
sadly no examples of rimmed rounds):
1 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13385&highlight=9mm), 2 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/
showthread.php?t=13861), 3 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14401)]

Just some thoughts...


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ozboy August 4th, 2006, 08:06 PM


Would the banana magazine work with the rounds stacked or would they have to be on top of each other?

The Bren .303 Mark IV Light Machine Gun uses .303. British rimed ammo, but I dont know how the ammo sits in the mag.
(I'm assuming its stacked).

Has anyone seen inside one of these mags?

They also use 100 round drum. This could be another option.

Dank$taVegas August 5th, 2006, 09:48 PM


I will put at my webpage and roguesci ftp the test firing video beacuse i can't found any videos or pictures of this improvised
weapon.
Well it's been more than a year and there seems to be no updates here, and the site posted doesn't seem to contain any
information on the build or your so called gun. :confused:

Is xload still a member here, and if so have you actually made any progress on your so called gun build up, would be nice to
see & hear of your progress if any was made.

Has anyone on this site attempted or completed any of P A Luty's plans?

akinrog August 6th, 2006, 04:33 PM


Well it's been more than a year and there seems to be no updates here, and the site posted doesn't seem to contain any
information on the build or your so called gun. :confused:

Is xload still a member here, and if so have you actually made any progress on your so called gun build up, would be nice to
see & hear of your progress if any was made.

Has anyone on this site attempted or completed any of P A Luty's plans?

I'm occassionally in contact with him. He completed his SMG even reactivated a deactivated catme (sp?) machine gun. However
AFAIK he is in the school busy. HTH.

Dank$taVegas August 6th, 2006, 04:48 PM


He completed his SMG even reactivated a deactivated catme (sp?) machine gun. However AFAIK he is in the school busy.

Well that sucks for us here. Would have been nice to hear from him or anyone else about the details involved in building this
gun, see some test fires/pictures and find out other information he would have to offer us here at the forums.

nbk2000 August 7th, 2006, 01:57 AM


Wouldn't that be CETME, the spanish predecessor to the HK91?

neo-crossbow August 7th, 2006, 04:19 AM


Would the banana magazine work with the rounds stacked or would they have to be on top of each other?

Since your in Oz you can pick up 25 round butler creek clear plastic mags with steel lips from Cleaver Fire-arms at margate in
qld for $60. They are for the 10/22 ruger.

I mail ordered a couple and built a project to find that they are cheap as chips and feed .22lr cleanly into a blowback operated
thingo....

I did find however that I had to move my ejector a little closer then in the plans I had seen to ensure propper ejection, but
this could be because of the ejection port, placement of mag well, stroke of bolt or any other varying factor in my hand tool
skills.

akinrog August 7th, 2006, 05:32 AM


Wouldn't that be CETME, the spanish predecessor to the HK91?

Yes it's CETME. He even sent me pictures, however I cannot dig out the picture from these several file stashes.

He actually deviated from the Luty's design and purchased a blank barrel and have it chambered by one of his friends and
install it on the SMG.

Actually I must contact him to encourage him to report here.

ozboy August 7th, 2006, 07:03 AM


Thanks for the tip neo-crossbow.

Do you know if you need a cat "c" licence to buy these mags, since the are semi-auto.? Or NO licence at all?

Dank$taVegas August 7th, 2006, 03:17 PM


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He actually deviated from the Luty's design and purchased a blank barrel and have it chambered by one of his friends and
install it on the SMG.
If I remember correctly in some of P A Luty's books, he suggest that the reader purchases a barrel with rifling as an
alternative to making your own out of steel tubing & steel collars. This would increase the accuracy of the SMG to a degree,
and stop the tumbling of the bullet in flight making the gun design much better. But with a SMG slinging lead downrange,
accuracy is not as important as a reliable gun tossing as much lead at the desired target as possible. This will definitely make
up for the lack of accuracy in the long run.

But when building a project like this, if you have access to purchase a barrel with rifling (which is fairly easy & cheap in most
countries) or have the means to make your own barrel why not build the project to the best of your abilities, and improve upon
the gun where it can be improved upon. The gun will be that much better.

Actually I must contact him to encourage him to report here.


That would be nice if he dropped in once in a while to spread some of his knowledge about the projects he has completed, it
would be very beneficial to people here on the forums who may be interested in attempting a project like this, or just wanted
to learn more about P A Luty's plans being put into action. But most of us know how time consuming school can be.

neo-crossbow August 9th, 2006, 12:48 AM


Thanks for the tip neo-crossbow.

Do you know if you need a cat "c" licence to buy these mags, since the are semi-auto.? Or NO licence at all?

As they aren't considered a part you need no liscence at all, nor will they ask for one. They also fit onto lever action rugers
that are cat (a) anyway. BTW it would take a cat (c) semi auto rimfire to a cat (d) because of the capacity

You will get them without any paper work, just give them a call and ask them what they would like for postage.

Call: (07) 3883 1733 and tell them you are afer a butler creek clear 25 round 10/22 mag and they will know what your on
about.

good luck and hope to see the results oneday online

1petmonster September 17th, 2006, 02:19 AM


If you have any shooters licence reguardless of state etc, you can purchase high capacity magazines in QLD without worry!
They also have a large selection of Owen,Sten,Thommy etc on hand.

Also Sterling M20 magazines work great on rocker, and if you had a Gevarm (befor you handed it in) they worked great on the
select conversion.

Arisaka September 25th, 2006, 07:15 PM


I only needed a lathe for a few pieces, beacuse i can't found some pieces in Spain and to make the barrel (I bought a blank
rifled barrel in Ebay, arround $ 30

Ever thought of using a .22 air rifle barrel?


These are legal to have in most if not all european countries.

inventorgp October 16th, 2006, 12:27 AM


Inventorgps Magna Carta gun

To all the so called gun licence experts (in Queensland);

First of all:

Category A weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category A weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable
(a) a miniature cannon under 120cm in barrel length that is
a black powder and muzzle loading cannon, depicting a
scale model of an historical artillery piece or naval gun;
(b) an air rifle;
(c) a blank-fire firearm at least 75cm in length;
(d) a rimfire rifle (other than a self-loading rimfire rifle);
(e) a single or double barrel shotgun;
(f) a powerhead.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category A weapon.
(3) In this section
conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is
capable of being used for converting a category A weapon
that is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre.

Category B weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category B weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable
(a) a muzzle-loading firearm;
(b) a single shot centre fire rifle;
(c) a double barrel centre fire rifle;
(d) a repeating centre fire rifle;
(e) a break action shotgun and rifle combination.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category B weapon.
(3) In this section
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conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is
capable of being used for converting a category B weapon that
is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre.

Category C weapons
Each of the following is a category C weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable
(a) a semiautomatic rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity
no greater than 10 rounds;
(b) a semiautomatic shotgun with a magazine capacity no
greater than 5 rounds;
(c) a pump action shotgun with a magazine capacity no
greater than 5 rounds.

Category D weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category D weapon
(a) a self-loading centre fire rifle designed or adapted for
military purposes or a firearm that substantially
duplicates a rifle of that type in design, function or
appearance;
(b) a non-military style self-loading centre fire rifle with
either an integral or detachable magazine;
(c) a self-loading shotgun with either an integral or
detachable magazine with a capacity of more than 5
rounds and a pump action shotgun with a capacity of
more than 5 rounds;
(d) a self-loading rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity of
more than 10 rounds.
(2) Subsection (1) applies to a weapon mentioned in the
subsection even if the weapon is permanently inoperable.

Category E weapons
A bulletproof vest or protective body vest or body armour designed to
prevent the penetration of small arms projectiles is a category E weapon.

Category H weapons
(1) A firearm, including an air pistol and a blank-fire firearm, under
75 cm in length, other than a powerhead, is a category H weapon, regardless
of whether it has been rendered permanently inoperable.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category H weapon.
(3) This section does not apply to a powerhead or category C, D or
R weapon.
(4) In this section
conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is capable of being
used for converting a category H weapon that is a firearm from one
calibre to another calibre.

Category H weapon classes


For schedule 22 of the Act, each of the following comprises a class of
category H weapon
(a) an air pistol;
(b) a centre-fire pistol with a calibre of not more than .38 inch or a
black-powder pistol;
(c) a centre-fire pistol with a calibre of more than .38 inch but not
more than .45 inch;
(d) a rim-fire pistol.

Category M weapons
Each of the following is a category M weapon
(a) any clothing, apparel, accessory or article designed to disguise any
weapon or other cutting or piercing instrument capable of causing
bodily harm;
(b) any of the following that is primarily designed for the control of
native or feral animals
(i) an antipersonnel gas of a corrosive, noxious or irritant nature
or that is capable of causing bodily harm and any weapon
capable of discharging the gas by any means;
(ii) an antipersonnel substance of a corrosive, noxious or irritant
nature or that is capable of causing bodily harm and any
weapon capable of discharging the substance by any means;
(c) any knife so designed or constructed so as to be used as a weapon
that while the knife is held in 1 hand, the blade may be released by
that hand;
(d) any clothing, apparel, adornment or accessory designed for use as
a weapon or a cutting or piercing instrument capable of causing
bodily harm;
(e) any incendiary or inflammable device containing any substance
capable of causing bodily harm or damage to property that is
primarily designed for vegetation management;
(f) any pistol crossbow designed to be discharged by the use of
1 hand (that is not a toy pistol crossbow) that when discharged is
capable of causing damage or injury to property or capable of
causing bodily harm;
(g) any crossbow designed to be discharged by the use of 2 hands
that, when discharged, is capable of causing damage or injury to
property or capable of causing bodily harm;
(h) a chinese throwing iron that is a hard non-flexible plate having
3 or more radiating points with 1 or more sharp edges in the shape
of a polygon, trefoil, cross, star, diamond or geometric shape and
constructed or designed to be thrown as a weapon;
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(i) a flail or similar device constructed and designed as a weapon
consisting of in part a striking head and which, if used offensively
against a person, is capable of causing bodily harm;
(j) a device known as a manrikiguisari or kusari, consisting of a
length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a
geometrically shaped weight or handgrip and constructed or
designed for use as a weapon;
(k) a device known as a knuckleduster or any device made or
adapted for use as a knuckleduster and which, if used offensively
against a person, is capable of causing bodily harm;
(l) a weighted glove designed or constructed to be used as a weapon;
(m) a mace or any similar article (other than a ceremonial mace made
for and used solely as a symbol of authority on ceremonial
occasions);
(n) any device, not a toy, constructed or designed as a telescopic
baton, the extension of which is actuated by the operation of a
mechanical trigger.

Category R weapons
Each of the following is a category R weapon
(a) a machine gun or submachine gun that is fully automatic in its
operation and actuated by energy developed when it is being fired
or has multiple revolving barrels, and any replica or facsimile of a
machine gun or submachine gun that is not a toy;
(b) a unit or device that is capable of being used for converting any
firearm to a weapon mentioned in paragraph (a);
(c) a firearm capable of firing 50 calibre BMG cartridge ammunition;
(d) an antipersonnel gas, and an antipersonnel substance, of a
corrosive, noxious or irritant nature or that is capable of causing
bodily harm, and any weapon capable of discharging the gas or
substance by any means, other than a gas or substance and any
weapon capable of discharging the gas or substance that is
primarily designed for the control of native or feral animals;
(e) an acoustical antipersonnel device of an intensity that is capable of
causing bodily harm;
(f) an electrical antipersonnel device of an intensity that is capable of
causing bodily harm;
(g) a hand grenade, other than an inert hand grenade, and an
antipersonnel mine;

(h) a silencer or other device or contrivance made or used, or capable


of being used or intended to be used, for reducing the sound
caused by discharging a firearm;
(i) a rocket launcher, recoilless rifle, antitank rifle, a bazooka or a
rocket propelled grenade type launcher;
(j) a mortar, all artillery and any incendiary or inflammable device
containing any substance capable of causing bodily harm or
damage to property, other than an incendiary or inflammable
device primarily designed for vegetation management.

Restricted items (Act, s 67)


The following items are restricted items for section 673 of the Act
(a) handcuffs, thumbcuffs or other similar restraints;
(b) nunchaku or kung-fu sticks or any similar device which consists
of 2 hard non-flexible sticks, clubs, pipes or rods connected by a
length of rope, cord, wire or chain constructed or designed to be
used in connection with the practice of a system of self-defence
and which if used offensively against a person is or are capable of
causing bodily harm;
(c) a billy club, a baton or any device constructed or designed as a
telescopic baton, not being a toy or a category M weapon, that if
used is capable of causing bodily harm;
(d) any studded glove which if used offensively against a person is
capable of causing bodily harm.

Firearms licencecategory C rifle and category C


shotgun for occupational rural purpose on rural land
(1) A person who, in the conduct of the persons business or
employment on rural land, has a need for 1 category C rifle or
1 category C shotgun, or both, for a rural purpose, may apply
for a firearms licence with an endorsement for 1 category C
rifle or 1 category C shotgun or both.
(2) A person who, in the conduct of the persons business or
employment on rural land, has a need for more than 1
category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun for a rural purpose,
may apply for a firearms licence with an endorsement for
more than 1 category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun.
(3) However, a person may apply under subsection (2) only if the
need arises because of the area or location of the land
involved.
(4) An authorised officer may issue a licence endorsed under
subsection (1) or (2) only if the authorised officer is satisfied
the applicants need for the firearm can not be satisfied in
another way.
(5) A licence endorsed under subsection (1) authorises the
licensee to possess and use
(a) 1 category C rifle; or
(b) 1 category C shotgun; or
(c) 1 category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun;
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stated on the licence, but only to satisfy the need stated on the
licence.
(6) For subsection (2), an authorised officer may endorse the
licence with the number of category C rifles or shotguns the
authorised officer decides is reasonably necessary to satisfy
the applicants need.
(7) A licence endorsed under subsection (2) authorises the
licensee to possess and use the number of category C rifles
and category C shotguns endorsed on the licence, but only to
satisfy the need stated on the licence.

Firearms licence1 category C weapon for occupational


fisher
(1) A person who, in the conduct of the persons business as, or
employment by, a commercial fisher, has a need on a
particular vessel, for 1 category C weapon may apply for a
firearms licence with an endorsement for the weapon.
(2) An authorised officer may issue a licence endorsed under
subsection (1) only if the authorised officer is satisfied the
applicants need for the firearm can not be satisfied in another
way.
(3) A licence endorsed under subsection (1) authorises the
licensee to possess and use the single category C weapon
stated on the licence, but only to satisfy the need stated on the
licence.
(4) In this section
commercial fisher means the holder of a commercial fisher
licence under the Fisheries Act 1994.

Firearms licence1 category D firearm for occupational


culling of animals
(1) A person who, in the conduct of the persons business or
employment (whether or not in primary production), has a
need for a category D weapon to cull animals may apply for a
firearms licence with an endorsement for 1 category D
weapon.
(2) The licence authorises the licensee to possess and use 1
category D weapon, but only to satisfy the need stated on the
licence.
(3) The licence must state the area where the weapon may be
used.

Second of all;

How to obtain a Licence

The following steps will guide you through the process;


Rifle Licence Category A & B

Step 1.
You will need a genuine reason to obtain a Category A & B Firearms Licence. If you become a Member of S.S.A.A. you can
then list your genuine reason as Sports & Target Shooting and Recreation & Hunting, as we are an approved body
prescribed under the law. Anyone who is already a member can help you or contact your local S.S.A.A. Branch.

Step 2.
Contact your nearest S.S.A.A. Branch Safety Course Instructor, and book in for a 30195QLD Weapons Act Safety Course.
(The State Office can also assist you to contact a S.S.A.A. Safety Course Instructor in your area.)
All S.S.A.A. (QLD) Inc. Instructors have attained the Certificate 4 in Workplace Training and Assessment.
As it takes time for your Membership Card to arrive, and you need proof of Membership of an Association to apply for a
license, we suggest you Join Now.

Step 3.
When you have completed your Safety Course we will post to you a 'Statement of Attainment' this is your proof that you have
successfully completed the Safety Course. A copy of this will be needed when you apply for your licence. While you are waiting
for this to arrive go to your nearest photo shop and have 2 passport size photos taken, as these will have to be supplied with
your application.

Step 4.
When you have everything you need go to the Police Station nearest you and ask for an 'Application for a License' Form 1 and
a 'Proof of Identity' Form 30, or download them from the Queensland Police Service Website. Fill these in and pay the fees,
the police station will then send them to Weapons Licensing Branch where they will be processed. Have patience, as they will
only be processed after 28 days.

Step 5.
When your licence arrives, you can then decide which firearm best suits your needs. Different types (we call them Disciplines)
of shooting require different types of firearms, so try all the Disciplines that your Branch has, then decide on the firearm you
want - don't make a hasty decision. When you have decided what you need, visit or call Your Gun Shop.

Handgun Licence Category H

Step 1.
Obtaining a handgun licence is different to the steps you need to get a rifle licence. Just being a member of S.S.A.A. is not
enough, you need to be a member of a 'Pistol Section' of a S.S.A.A. Branch, or an 'Approved Club', most S.S.A.A. Branches
have a pistol section. To join this 'Approved Club' you have to go to the Police Station and ask for a 'Pre Approval' application
form, Form Q515. You fill this in and lodge it at the Police Station. Weapons Licensing Branch will process the form and send
you back a letter authorising you to join a Club.
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Step 2.
When the letter comes back, you can then join the Pistol Section of a Branch. The Branch will advise you on what is required to
join. You are now on probation for 6 months. During that time you have to attend a minimum of 3 Branch Competition Shoots,
these shoots will be recorded on your Participation Record Card that the Branch will issue you when you join. At any time within
the 6 months you can do a 30195QLD Weapons Act Safety Pistol Course, then when your 6 months are up you can apply for
your licence.

Step 3.
After you have sent your application form in, it will be processed after 28 days. So have patience.

Step 4.
Enjoy your sport.

And lastly - my say:

Cat C licence is dumb because:


1 You are only allowed one semi auto rifle if you are a farmer of fisher.
2 Most rimfire semi automatic rifles are chambered in .22S,L,LR.
3 You do not usually use a .22LR for anything larger than a fox.
4 A fisherman with a semi auto with 10 rounds of .22LR versus multiple pirates with 9mm sub machine guns.

Cat D licence is dumb because:


1 If you are culling different animals you need different calibres.

Cat R notes:
1 There is nothing about flash hiders
2 Nothing of electro-mechanical weapons or motorised/hand cranked machine guns.

I have experimented with a trigger mechanism one of Luty's designs. If I get time I'll upload a picture.

.22LR's are a good idea because 525 rounds of Federal are Au$25-30.

@ Neo
Neo I'd think it would be a bit risky buying a mag. And do they have a web site or email?

This is the largest post I've wrote!!

BeerWolf October 16th, 2006, 01:32 AM


Inventorgp s M a g n a Carta gu n

To all the so called gun licence experts (in Queensland);

WOW! I think that list just shouts out to me, "get the heck OUT of this country!"

Move somewhere that the gov't allows you at least a pointy stick to defend yourself.

inventorgp October 16th, 2006, 02:24 AM


Impressive Very impressive. -Darth Vader
BeerWolf I agree. Well I live on acreage so I can make a bit of noise.

Oh and do forget sound suppressors (silencer).

ap_gruffud October 16th, 2006, 05:03 AM


Those licencing laws are a load of crap - Australia's (rifle) licence system goes:
A: Blank firing guns, Pellet guns, paintball guns, Air rifles, break action shotguns and non self-loading rimfire rifles
B: Single shot centerfire rifles, Muzzleloading arms, Combination guns, Double Rifles
C: Non self-loading centerfire rifles
D: Pump/Auto shotguns with magazine capacity no greater than 5, semi-automatic rifles with magazine capacity no greater
than 20
R: Inoperable Fully-automatic display arms

RPI (Remote primary industries): Semi-automatic centerfire rifles, fully automatic rifles/submachine guns with magazine
capacity no greater than 30, arms chambered for .50 BMG, .55 BOYS or 10.5 Soviet

and that is Queensland standard - there is no restricions on body armour, and even inert grenades/bazookas and crap like
that are strictly illegal.

nbk2000 October 16th, 2006, 07:04 AM


and that is Queensland standard - there is no restricions {sic} on body armour, and even inert grenades/bazookas and crap
like that are strictly illegal.

This is where good grammar is so important.

Does this mean what it implies...that there are NO restrictions on body armour, meaning that anyone can own it?

Or did you mean to say that there are no restrictions on body armour because it's in the same class as inert grenades (which
are strictly illegal), thus unownable by anyone?

Hobbit Porn October 17th, 2006, 03:27 AM


With regards to Qld/Australian laws, I read through the previous couple of posts, but didn't see any mention of paintball guns
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at all. Are they considered to be air-rifles or fall into one of the other categories?

It was my understanding that you needed to hold some sort of firearms license to own one. Is this correct or is it just a very
common misconception?

inventorgp October 17th, 2006, 06:31 AM


You cannot own body armour, bomb suites, NBC masks, gasmasks etc.
So if the government turns on its people...

As to paintball guns I'm not quite sure, especially when you require a cat A licence for a airsoft rifle, keep in mind that it has
to be a bolt action sniper only.

And another reason why Cat C is ridiculous; pump action shotguns are the same class as semi auto shotguns. But what about
lever action? Hmm...

A bikey gang on the Gold Coast had full auto Glock 18 (model?), Uzi's, and M72 LAW's.

And if you want a fifty cal - .510 DTC Europ, if the cops let you have one.

What lame is that our next door neighbour, New Zealand is lucky they can have semi auto military style rifles, snipers, and
also gun turrets of warships. Although I'm not sure how hard it is to obtain a licence.

ap_gruffud October 19th, 2006, 09:15 AM


Sorry if my licencing stuff is a bit out - I was regurgitating what I've been reading of an old poster in my local cop shop for
quite a few years now.

As for body armor - a standard kevlar-ceramic vest is available for anyone who can prove thier job involves a risk of high
speed projectiles of any kind - I could buy one with a rural firefighters ticket.

And lastly - my dad had two inert grenades confiscated at the range when the police members showed up.

So - I apoligise for seeming offensive - I was just following longstanding beliefs.

ps: usually when I say 50 cal I mean 50BMG.

++++++++++

I added the punctuation marks to the end of your sentences for you. You know, the . ! ? marks that show that you are done
with a sentence?

Be sure to use some in the future.

Oh, and paragraph breaks...and spellcheck. ;)

NBK

inventorgp October 22nd, 2006, 03:56 AM


What??? Confiscated inert grenades? They cant do that - theyre inert. Well it depending on what state you live in.
Check this site out: Collectors Armoury (http://www.collectorsarmoury.com.au)

Yes, usually - if not most of the time .50 cal means .50BMG.

About those mags, does anyone know of any rifles/models that would use/fit one.

If I were to purchase a couple of blank .22LR (and 9mm) rifle barrels, can any one suggest length, twist, grade etc. for a SMG
and a rifle.

I wonder if "used" (date) bullet proof jackets can be acquired?

inventorgp October 22nd, 2006, 06:13 AM


I found this site: Not expedient, but anyway... CNC Gunsmithing (http://www.cncgunsmithing.com)
You can download some schematics from this site.

neo-crossbow November 16th, 2006, 02:36 AM


About those mags, does anyone know of any rifles/models that would use/fit one.

If I were to purchase a couple of blank .22LR (and 9mm) rifle barrels, can any one suggest length, twist, grade etc. for a SMG
and a rifle.

I wonder if "used" (date) bullet proof jackets can be acquired?

If you want barrels then go to Margate and see tony cleaver at cleaver firearms.

If your after magazines then go to shooters warehouse in ashmore (gold coast) and anyone there can help you.

If your on the coast, you can pick up level II vests, cash no questions asked if you know where, and who to ask.

Pm me
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MarkIX November 17th, 2006, 04:57 PM


The .22LR is pretty anemic round even .22WMR while better isn't great, you might be better buying 9mm in component form
(which is legal) some bullet presses can be had for a fairly low cost. The only alternative I see is to engineer for a truly a rapid
rate of fire like the A( or Am)-180 but that requires machining not really in accordance with expedient design.

On a side note Mr Metral in his book "Do-It-Yourself Submachine Gun" suggests two groove rifling is sufficient accuracy for a
sub-machine gun. Early big game rifles used two grooves with a belted bullet and were deemed accurate enough for that kind
of dangerous work.

ozboy November 28th, 2006, 06:47 AM


As to paintball guns I'm not quite sure, especially when you require a cat A licence for a airsoft rifle, keep in mind that it has
to be a bolt action sniper only.

And another reason why Cat C is ridiculous; pump action shotguns are the same class as semi auto shotguns. But what about
lever action? Hmm...
In answer to your questions, BOTH are cat A!:D

mike-hunt December 9th, 2007, 07:39 AM


I am considering building a 22 machine pistol from a John Holmes book . I apparently most of the parts are designed to not
look like gun parts . My plan was to have the parts requiring lathe or mill work made professionally at several different
machine shops with the story that they are one off pieces from an old machine or for prototype of my own design what ever lye
fits the peace . Maybe getting several of each part machined at once . I am interested in hearing from anyone who has
completed any of J Holmes guns .

Heres a utube link of his 22 machine pistol being fired

neetje December 25th, 2007, 04:13 PM


Is there any chance of being able to scan the book and make it availlable for download?Is it on the FTP already?I'd be
interested in reading it and following your project to see how it turns out,xload.Good luck.

It has already been scanned, along with all his other books that went for sale.

here's the link:

http://rapidshare.com/files/22780652/Wpnarch3LUTY.rar.html

I hope you enjoy them. I have other ebooks as well, including Holmes' books, but I'll upload those later because my hard
drive is a bit disorganized atm...

Killy December 26th, 2007, 01:07 PM


Heh, everybody is talking about planning to build some SMG stuff like Lutys, or Holmes (including me), they request books,
but actually we are starving of info (pics, descriptions) from ones who managed to build the SMG or at least any part of it...

neetje December 29th, 2007, 06:20 AM


I think the problem is that they are pretty illegal to build in many countries. I've already ordered the parts for mine, but I'm
not sure if I'm going to put some pictures or video's of it online...

Charlie Workman January 4th, 2008, 03:54 AM


I think the problem is that they are pretty illegal to build in many countries. I've already ordered the parts for mine, but I'm
not sure if I'm going to put some pictures or video's of it online...

I love the people who post this stuff on U-tube. I call it "Thank you for sharing your felony". particularly those whiz kids who
show their faces.

Charles Owlen Picket January 4th, 2008, 10:14 AM


I love the people who post this stuff...

+1 This is really an important issue...


If you enjoy this forum and the discussions herein, don't EVER throw stuff up that endangers it. Please use your fucking head
when dealing with energetics, firearms, or even pranks. The discussions of "how it may be done" is vastly different than "look
at this".

To spell it out very clearly, a drawing is different than a picture of a metallic item. A picture of some crystalline substance is
different than a explosion and your car or whatever in the background. A mathematical model is different than a blown up
mailbox, etc, etc. We are talking about self preservation. I'm not getting on anyone's back, so don't get all defensive - just
treat the last two posts like you would signs at a shooting range.
If you think about it, this forum is on the edge of censorship and has already been attacked by iDefense to the extent of
loosing it's ISP. Please use common sense. :rolleyes:

I understand that the longer one participates in these discussions, the more "comfortable" one gets in the general discussion.
But every once in awhile pretend that you are talking through a bullhorn to the public on the street. :eek:

neetje January 4th, 2008, 01:08 PM


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I love the people who post this stuff on U-tube. I call it "Thank you for sharing your felony". particularly those whiz kids who
show their faces.

That polish guy Focusofdarkness on youtube has removed every one of his vids. I think that's better for him, but worse for us
since his design was a perfect open bolt SMG. He even showed how he made his munitions by using a hilti nail gun cartridge...
:cool:

btw, in some countries there's no problem in building your own firearms. MOST countries are so afraid of armed civilians they
ban everything resembling a gun just to give the IMPRESSION of safety on the streets. I capitalize that word because criminals
aren't bound by law so they can't be disarmed...

I know that in my country I can't even buy an Airsoft, wich didn't stop me from having an airsoft resembling a M4 carbine :D

Even worse, I bought it in America and went on a flight back home with the thing in my backpack... :eek:

megalomania January 6th, 2008, 03:41 PM


There are also legal ways of actually detonating explosives and building/firing exotic weapons. Many things that are illegal to
most citizens are perfectly legal once the necessary forms are filled out, licenses obtained, and safety requirements met.
Pictures and videos of legal activity are perfectly acceptable.

Man Down Under January 6th, 2008, 05:19 PM


Surely someone here must have saved those Youtube! videos?

As regards legality, if I was a cop and looking for an easy bust, I'd go for the Youtuber's showing their faces, and get Youtube!
to give me the IP and get the ISP to give me the user. No warrant needed either. :)

Doesn't matter if there's ever a conviction. Simply arresting them and letting them go through the hell of the court system is
almost certain to get a guilty plea, rather than risk the absurd sentences a 'bomb' charge would get them, after showing the
video 'this dangerous psychopath made to glorify himself on the Internet' to the jury. :p

neetje January 6th, 2008, 05:40 PM


There are also legal ways of actually detonating explosives and building/firing exotic weapons. Many things that are illegal to
most citizens are perfectly legal once the necessary forms are filled out, licenses obtained, and safety requirements met.
Pictures and videos of legal activity are perfectly acceptable.

I'm wondering... Do you live in America?

Because I live in the Netherlands and I'm not allowed to build my own guns or own them.

The only legal way would be for me to obtain a gun smithing license, which would cost me 5 years in education. And then I
would have to be hired by someone already manufacturing them since my government has chosen not to expand it's gun
production ability (which means they won't give you a license for starting your own gun company)...

BlackFalcoN January 6th, 2008, 05:52 PM


Surely someone here must have saved those Youtube! videos?

You can recover YouTube movies from your browser cache. Simply rename them as .flv files and you can open them with any
video player that supports FLV files.

If somebody still has them, please upload them to rapidshare and/or the FTP so we can still benefit from them.

Man Down Under January 6th, 2008, 08:00 PM


One thing I figured out was saving videos from shockwave'd sites.

Use a downloader to get the SWF file. Rename from .SWF to .TXT. Open it, search for '.flv', and copy the filepath into your
browser after the top-level name of the site where the video is located. Voila! :)

Killy January 14th, 2008, 02:48 PM


Here is the only reproduction of Luty project on the net that I found.
It is from page
http://www.geocities.com/homemadefirepower/
that is blank right now (and would stay probably forever)

The interesting thing is authors description and modifications :


"This book by P. A. Luty published by Paladin Press available from Amazon will explain in great detail how to make your own
9mm submachine gun with common off the shelf parts in the privacy of your own home."

"I was able to build the gun in about 60 hours with only some basic hand tools, and the only power tool was a handheld drill. A
drill press and angle grinder would make it easier and go faster but at the time I did not have such things. Many parts
described in the book I could not find anywhere. Parts that I could not find include the wag well, 3 inch roll pin, barrel, barrel
sleeve, steel collars of the right size. I have worked out many of the problems and this page should help you on your build."

"For the barrel I used a pre-owned UZI barrel purchased from www.auctionarms.com for half the price of a chamber reamer.
This barrel is 10 inches lo ng, one inch lo nger tha n the tube called for in the bo ok but d on t cut it shorter. The barrel co m e s
chambered and rifled making it more accurate and is a huge time saver. It needs a sleeve to fit into the steel collars. The
sleeve has the dimensions of 0.75" x 0.035" x 0.68" and will slide onto the UZI barrel with ease but not sloppy. It is a tap
tight fit into the 3/4 inch collars. The set screws on the collars hold it in place against the barrel."
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"Close up of sleeve on barrel in collars. I could not find collars with the right outer diameter, only ones with a smaller 1.25 OD.
These will not fit into the upper receiver. To fix the problem buy a 1.375" x 0.065" x 1.25" tube and cut it up and put it over
the collars to get the right size. It might be a little too large and need to be filed down where it makes contact with the upper
receiver to fit in."

"For the breech block I used 0.625" x 0.12" x 0.39" and 0.75" x 0.065" x 0.62 tubes for the center of it. The inside tube is too
large and needs to be filed down all around to slide inside the larger one. JB weld is used to secure them together along with
the tight fit. Over this goes the steel collars and over those go the 1.375" x 0.065" x 1.25" slices also held on strong by JB
weld."

"I could not find the 3 inch roll pin called for in the book. I used a 0.5" x 0.095" x 0.31" tube cut with 2 hacksaw blades on
one saw and opened up with files to cut the slot for the ejector. In the center went a round steel rod held in with JB weld and
two roll pins."

"The Firing pin is part of a drill bit shank; it was too long at first and was ground down and at an angle to keep from getting
caught on the end of the cartridge. It too is glued in with JB weld."

"At the end of the upper receiver is the recoil shield and guide rod. The guide rod is made from a thick metal coat hanger
stuck into a steel round with that inside of a collar and that collar inside of the large collar used in the rest of the weapon. This
is JB welded together. The end cover is made from scrap left over from making the lower receiver."

Killy January 14th, 2008, 03:00 PM


Part 2.
"The recoil spring is poorly made. I could not make the spring winding device described in the book. Instead I wrapped the
wire around a long thin screw driver with one end clamped down and the wire held on with vice-grips. It does cycle with weapon
but will need to be replaced along with the guide rod at some point."

"Trigger is cut and filed from scrap left over from lower receiver."

"Sear is made the same as it is in the book, but mine would bind on the side of the upper receiver to fix this I used some
nuts to keep it strait."

"The Magazine is made from a tube that is about the size of the magazine well described in the book and is a tight fit into the
lower receiver. The lips were bent in a vise and tapped with a hammer."

"Lips let cartridge protrude enough to allow breach block to catch it."

"I finished the lower receiver with the oil and torch method from the book, it works very well, wipe down the parts that can rust
with oil. Many of the parts are made with stainless steel or aluminum, these parts I painted with a semi flat black spray paint.
If your breach b lock doe sn t line up quite right with yo ur chambe r file the parts of th e block that mak e contact with the receiver
walls to point it in the right direction. Silicone spray does a fantastic job of making the breach block and magazine operate
smoothly if you are having friction problems."

"I enjoyed building this weapon, though at times it was frustrating and time consuming. It will go faster and your results will be
better if you have better tools, drill press, grinders, welder, and of course some skill with the tools. Don't be discouraged if
your parts don't look as nice as the ones in the book, isn't easy to shape everything just right but if you make everything line
up on yours it should work. I have only fired one shot from this, and it worked. At some point I will be able to do a full test fire
and will update this site when that happens. I expect to be able to do that this summer."

Picture of his artwork :


http://i6.tinypic.com/8f4yuqx.jpg

iHME January 15th, 2008, 12:33 PM


It's a shame that his site is down :( It is suprisingly rare to see a luty smg made real, considering its simple machanism and
need for only some regular hand tools.

If one wants to make a real one that would be legal in most parts of the world one could just make it fire 8mm or 9mmPA
blanks. Also, if the barrel is plugged and ported it would not fire anything. Around here one can buy blank firing replicas and
ammo for them without license. But theres a catch, the barrel must be plugged and the gases from the blanks have to be
vented in some other direction then to the front of the gun. One thing that could hinder American builders is the (or so I'm led
to belive) that BATF considers the reciver to be the gun, so even if the gun only fires blanks and the barrel is plugged it is
considered a fully automatic short barreled carbine/smg. If you drill or some other way take the cap of the barrel it is
considered as manufacture of illeagal weapon, after that the gun is from legal point of view the same with any normal weapon
loaded with blanks. As long as the cap stays in the barrel the gun is considered to bee something similar to a childs capgun.

One of the technical problems in building the luty smg to fire 8mm blanks is the fact that the blanks don't feed well even in
their real counterparts, give that you would use a weapon that allready has problems potential with feeding (luty smg). The
blanks feed reasonably well from a pistol magazine, but from a curved or rectangular smg magazine they don't feed well. It is
said that the blanks ressemble the wadcutter rounds in their feeding.
Also in Lutys book "Improvised HANDGUN ammunition" he uses 8mm blansk for primers in proces of making the ammo, so if
you make a live fire and need to improvise the ammunition one could already have the blanks.

Some pictures for added information:

A fullauto mp5k blankfirerer,mark the strange magazine:


http://dekoase.com/page/pics/blowmp52.jpg

8mm blanks:
http://dekoase.com/page/pics/8mmpamf.jpg

neetje January 15th, 2008, 04:16 PM


If you get yourself a reloading press you might get the cases tapered, solving a lot of feeding problems.
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I'm currently trying to fix something for a .32 acp, build on Luty's design. Not very powerful, but using the right springs and the
right size breech block, this can be a bit easier than one might imagine...

I used to reload ammo, using a reloading press to resize the used cartridges to their original size. I don't know how well this
works on brass tubing, but if it is able to resize it, this is the ideal solution.

I haven't tried this before, so I'm just making suggestions. I wonder if anyone has already tried this...

Ubermensch January 15th, 2008, 06:03 PM


You can recover YouTube movies from your browser cache. Simply rename them as .flv files and you can open them with any
video player that supports FLV files.

If somebody still has them, please upload them to rapidshare and/or the FTP so we can still benefit from them.

Hey, use Cache View to find it in your cache, it makes Firefox cache file extraction 100 times easier, and assuming you don't
have it wiped everyitme you close your browser, it may still be there.

http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~timj/cv/

neetje January 27th, 2008, 05:22 PM


I found 2 of the video's back in my realplayer download folder. Here are the links:

http://rapidshare.com/files/87122667/YouTube_-_Homemade_gun_part_1.flv.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/87123195/YouTube_-_Homemade_gun_part_4_8mm_ammo.flv.html

I think these are useful vids:


- the first shows a reasonably detailed part of his gun
- in the second he shows how you make ammo by using yellow (medium powered) hilti 6,8/18 mm blanks (.27 long)

iHME February 1st, 2008, 01:36 PM


using a reloading press to resize the used cartridges to their original size. I don't know how well this works on brass tubing, but
if it is able to resize it, this is the ideal solution.

This reminds me of my idea about making a simple reloading press and necking 8mm or 9mm blanks down to .22 or .177 so
that i could use air rifle barrels.

Once again some youtube links:

Basic construction of a improvised pistol that necks 9mm blanks down to .177:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=O3OVDSycsx8

The maker shooting his creation, at the start you can see him inserting a .177 pellet in to the tip of the blank:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kbj4UPBrV64

Killy February 1st, 2008, 10:49 PM


I think he is using 5.5 mm air rifle part, since he is shooting steel bb-s.
(or maybe 4.5 is he using, but 5.5 would be better to use, since its bigger/stronger)

One type of modification would be that you take normal blank firing revolver, cut the barrel and weld that 5.5mm air rifle
barrel,
or drill through/remove the barrel and insert air rifle barrel (or some barrel to fire normal ammo even, thats one possible
modification for blank fireing revolvers to become useful)

But, beside that, I think that posts about modified blank firing ammo, or ramset "ammo" dont belong to this homemade SMG
thread, and should be moved to Rameset or some similar or
maybe even new thread for improvised firearm ammo only (this is not a bad idea).

Neetje, what are you fixing for .32, what you have in mind ?

neetje February 2nd, 2008, 03:57 PM


I was thinking about an open-bolt smg, by luty's design (exp firearms vol. 2) with a twin stack magazine. Since I do not have
a lot of tools, I might make it even more simplistic than Luty's, because watching the youtube vids have given me several
ideas:

- Luty uses shaft lock collars (bolt and barrel). I can't seem to find them, so I'll drill a hole in a aluminum block, fit in my
barrel and maybe file it a bit for ease of feeding. This block will be fitted in a U-profile tube.
- No guidance rod. My bolt will be a steel rod, drilled out in front. In this hole I will fit my firing pin. Using 2 pins I wil let the
bolt slide.
- No barrel rifling. I don't have a lathe, rifling machine or whatever you need to make these. Where I live you can only order a
gun barrel if you own a gun, so this is not an option for me. I have bought a 14x3mm seamless tube, which I will use as a
barrel.

I will be using hilti cartridges (.27 short or long, whatever suits me best) as primer and propellant for my 8mm bullet (.32 acp
can be a possibility, using .27 short). :cool:

The gun itself will be made mostly from aluminum tubing and aluminum blocks, except for the bolt, sear and, of course, the
barrel. These parts need to be strong, because they will get heavy blows and lots of pressure.

If I'm forgetting anything, please tell me :rolleyes:


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Killy February 5th, 2008, 01:57 PM


I suggest first you try more to find real 9mm ammo, and not mess with this ramset improvised type.

Second, try to find as more "genuine" parts from Lutys design, like collars, and pipe sizes.

I was fucking amazed when I found some company who had in their catalogue all sizes that I need, it even had 3 sizes I can
choose for barrel and barrel sleeve, and all would do the job
(that werent Luty sizes like 15.88, but "round" sizes in mm like 18 x 4.5mm, which would be maybe even better than his
sizes)
I was particulary happy with that barrel size, since it is pretty heavy, and with sleeve probably wouldnt make problems like
exploading.
Other "alternate" barrel sizes were 16x3.5mm and 15x3mm.
The last size is maybe not the best option, since in that case barrel sleeve would have bigger walls than barrel itself.

But to my great dissapointment, when I called and asked about it, I found out that they have none of my needs !
(why they promote it in a catalogue, I dont know, bastards)

I was so pissed, but Its like that in life, if you want something, you will never get it easy way ( and tubing sizes listed in that
catalogue were way too easy!)

I continue my search, and thus, modifications of tube sizes, primary needed by tubes available.
Same suggestions to you, dont try to find exact tubes, find some that will be near his sizes, and could be easy assembled and
put together inside one another.

The most important parts of construction are shaft lock collars and magazine.

Shaft lock collar outside diameter determines size of tube, and inside diameter determines size of barrel sleeve and barrel.
Magazine determines size of magazine well and size of lower tube.

For 9mm Luger caliber,magazine size of 35x15x2 mm is the best possible option, since in this rounds will fit nicely.
Sizes like 35x20 or bigger could maybe be good ( then magazine would be more like two stacked), but that needs more
tubing size adjustment in magazine well and so.

Sizes bigger than 35x2 mm (height of 9mm round is about 30mm)


would be fucked up, (like 40x20x2mm tube)
just like idea of "bolding" the magazine walls with additional metal strips glued inside so that the inside space is not 36 x 16
mm (rounds in this "mag" size wouldnt fit loose).
But, who knows, maybe in some desperation I end up with that size & type mag.

Making your own parts like collars out of aluminum block is good idea, or that could be made from steel block with height of
14-20 mm.Of course it should be very precise, so it could fit in tube, and barrels could fit in it.

iHME February 5th, 2008, 03:24 PM


That sounds like a good idea. I have been thinking about getting some of the needed materials for the luty smg from my
local hardware store, they seem to have some of the needed tube sizes. Though I'll try to finnish my other project some time
this month. It is a bolt action .22lr pistol made form, ehh, bolts. I have designed it to be adaptable to some other calibers but
without real locking lugs highpresure round are a big no-no. All I need is just steel pipe with 20mm id (the bolts used are
20mm diameter.

But now back to the subject when I get some more money I'l get some materials from the hardware store for the luty smg and
a shotgun project. My time and motivation are not unlimited and I also do have to concentrate on my studies.

neetje February 6th, 2008, 12:46 PM


I suggest first you try more to find real 9mm ammo, and not mess with this ramset improvised type.

Mate, I can't get it legally. The trick to making your own firearms is using whatever you have, or are able to get.

I can buy all the tubes, no problem, the ammo I can't. So I'll have to improvise that too. It's no problem for me to buy the
nail gun blanks, so it's a good alternative. I've already tested the blanks I'm going to use, they are more powerful than a
.22lr.

The most important parts of construction are shaft lock collars and magazine.

Shaft lock collar outside diameter determines size of tube, and inside diameter determines size of barrel sleeve and barrel.
Magazine determines size of magazine well and size of lower tube.

I don't agree with the shaft lock collars. He uses this to fasten his barrel, give the bolt the needed weight and to make the
recoil shield. These can all be replaced with other things. The barrel can be fastened using an aluminum block with a hole in it,
the recoil shield can be made the same way and the bolt can be made heavy with a steel rod and round tubing in which this
rod will fit.

It's just like Luty says in all his books, this is an example of building your own improvised smg with a limited amount of tools.
His designs are not the only way of making a smg.

kaiserbill February 7th, 2008, 09:46 AM


I too have started looking around for the materials for a Luty SMG. As a lot of you gentlemen state above, I'm having
difficulty locating some of the specified tubes. I certainly am struggling to find SHT or SMT with a 9mm inside diameter. It
looks as if I will have to look at a different approach to the barrel, perhaps machined.

As for the magazine, I'm playing with the idea of making up a Sten - type mag, the construction method of which is described
nicely by Bill Holmes in his SMG book. The reason for this is that I'm struggling to find the correct tube type once more, and
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seeing as I'm probably going to have to modify the project already, I might as well carry on. I do not want to make too many
changes though, as I'm afraid that this will complicate the project unneccessarily. But, as neetje said above, There are ways
and reasons to modify the original Luty design.

This thread would be a fantastic topic or repository for ideas relating to help or modifications to the basic Luty design. All
purely theoretical of course.......

Killy February 7th, 2008, 03:13 PM


Neetje, most stuff here on this forum is not legal,
so dont whine if you cant legally buy ammo, I cant either, but you can try to find somebody who can buy for you, or buy from
him.

This improvised ammo is hardcore to the fullest,


but since you dont know ballistics from that nail gun "ammo",and quality of it, combine that with non rifled barrel,
to my opinion you would get something more lika a toy than a real lethal weapon, it would shoot "something", but on what
range would it be useful or lethal nobody knows.

Kaiserbill you should search, and, just like I said, modify the plans to fit things you could found.
Too many changes arent bad, if everything works as planned, at the end.
That sten type mag, in which book from Bill Holmes is that mentioned, and could you describe it shortly ?
This topic will hopefully one day be place you can read about real Luty SMG somebody made, not just theoretical masturbation
around his books.If my memory serves me well, something like that is said on mainpage, here we want real knowledge, not
hypothetical geek shit.

Some more pics of somebody trying to make .380 SMG, this is everything I found:
No additional pics, no more info about materials, procedure etc.

http://i32.tinypic.com/116n8yh.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/3310eac.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/246kqit.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/2qm15ya.jpg

neetje February 7th, 2008, 09:15 PM


Killy, I understand your point, but the way I see, it is like this:

I indeed know people who can buy me some 9mm ammo. But if they (or me) get caught, they lose their licenses, and I hate
to have that on me. If I (for self-defense or whatever) decide to use the gun against someone, they will be guilty too.

However, I have a reasonable amount of time, about enough tubing to build 8 smgs, and I like working in my garage. When I
started thinking about building this gun I was already thinking of trail and error, and spending a reasonable amount of time in
fine tuning the gun. :rolleyes:

The blanks are nowhere near 9mm ammo ballistics, so if I use spring, bolt etc from luty's design and just downgrade the
spring strength and bolt weight in steps, I will get it to work ;)

Anyways, this will be my project for the next couple of weeks. When it's finished, I'll make a couple of pics/vids so everybody
can see.

btw, the pics: Nice lower receiver, but I wonder where the rest of the gun is :D

kaiserbill February 8th, 2008, 08:10 AM


Nice pictures Killy.

I'm going away for the week-end, but I'll give a description of the sten type mag when I return on Monday. I have most of
Luty's books as well as a couple from Bill Holmes. My original intention was to build the basic Luty design quite closely. Then
move through his designs: For example 9mm MP Mk1, Mk2, and 9mm BSP, with design improvements progressively built in.
I'd like to end off with the Holmes 9mm MP, but we are talking a timeline over a few years. My family and work commitments
ensure this.

iHME February 9th, 2008, 03:34 PM


Did some sopping at the hardware store today.
Bought some of the pipes need to make the luty smg reciver, I left out the parts for magwell as I'm not sure what caliber I'll
be making it.

A image says more than thousand words (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/?


action=view&current=IMG_5394_.jpg)

I also started making my boltaction pistol, whem I get more done I'll make a separate thread for it. I'll also try to write up
some plans for the pistol.

I made some basic drawings on my laptop before starting the project, unfortunately it is a very old laptop, it does not have a
usb or netconnection.
So I can only show you a picture of the pipe thats going to be the reciver.
Pic (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/?action=view&current=IMG_5398.jpg)

Oh also one thing, the pipes cost me 8,57eur and I cut them to length with the shops bandsaw.

DiablerieBane February 18th, 2008, 02:15 AM


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Ive bought a book thats almost identical. Its built for 9mm luger rounds. And requires a metal lathe and a machining
machine.. Whatever one calls it. I have neither, so I've been contacting machine shops to machine the parts for mine. If you
are all interested in such things, paladin press is a brilliant publisher. Ive also got a book on combat knife throwing. The
books are cheap, so they've got my recommendation as well as xloads, Im sure

kaiserbill February 21st, 2008, 10:04 AM


Sorry Killy, been very busy at work. I haven't forgotten the description of the magazine for you. I'll get that sorted out shortly.

DiablerieBane, what is the title of that book of yours?

Killy February 21st, 2008, 08:30 PM


Ive seen the procedure, but only shortly, I havent researched it,
if you want to write something about it, some general things so that we get the picture in short words.
Ive tried "bolding" the 40x20 pipe to create space for 9mm round,
but the results arent good.

DiablerieBane, do you think we are retarded ?

DiablerieBane February 23rd, 2008, 06:22 PM


Its called A Do It Yourself SubMachine Gun. All drawings are to scale and ready to be taken to the shop. Its really cool because
it compares in almost everyway to an uzi, as far as firing rate, muzzle velocity and magazine capacity goes.

iHME February 24th, 2008, 10:38 AM


Its called A Do It Yourself SubMachine Gun

Who wrote it (Gerard Metral?) and even better, it looks that you have it. So could you upload it if it's a e-book or scan it if it is
a traditional book. It would greatly help people understand you if they saw the same than you.

Killy February 24th, 2008, 12:31 PM


I never saw that book from that Gerard, and Im sceptic if it is real homemade stuff, or you have to own machines like lathe,
like from B.Holmes books.

Compared to Uzi and stuff like that means nothing if you cant made it at home.

iHME February 24th, 2008, 04:50 PM


What I have read (at amazon you could browse some pages of the book) says that it needs machining. The designer said
that his goal was to create a smg comparable to mp5 and uzi.
Those two need precision work so it is not that surprising that it would need machining. Of course nearly all machining can be
made by hand tools, it is all about it if you can file some piece of metal for a year. Bill Holmes said that he made one of his
smgs without real machines, as his shop had just burned to ground. I would not personally waste my time filing, I'd rather
make my own machines from scratch and waste my time on it.

kaiserbill February 25th, 2008, 10:40 AM


So, is it the Gerard Metral book? Be nice to have a peek at it....

akinrog February 28th, 2008, 05:58 AM


So, is it the Gerard Metral book? Be nice to have a peek at it....

It's been floating around on P2P networks and I remember even seeing it on FTP.

Charlie Workman February 29th, 2008, 01:59 AM


It is a machined weapon, but he has some parts simplified for easier production. He's a Swiss army officer and wanted
something comparable to what he was used to using. A good book, but not something to be built using hacksaws and files.

iHME February 29th, 2008, 01:22 PM


So would some one upload it to rapidshare, mihd or megaupload? I realy would like to read that book.

a3990918 February 29th, 2008, 06:26 PM


So would some one upload it to rapidshare, mihd or megaupload? I realy would like to read that book.

My scanner bit the "Big Red One":mad: a couple of days ago. As soon as I get a new one. I'll be more than happy to scan
and upload for the forum...

mike-hunt March 1st, 2008, 11:58 AM


I am interested in herring from any one who owns a deactivated assault riffle especially in Australia . How is the barrel blocked
? Can a short peace be salvaged ? And are the magazines altered in any way ? I am interested as this could be a possible
souse of parts for constructing a S.M.G from Lutty or Bill Holme's plans.
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iHME March 1st, 2008, 12:45 PM
Around here the rifles bolt's face must bee milled to less then 75% of the original thus making it impossible to fire. In some
countries it is only needed to cast a lead slug in to the barrel. But considering australias strict gun-laws it is propably welded
shut as it is here.

a3990918 March 7th, 2008, 04:55 PM


My scanner bit the "Big Red One":mad: a couple of days ago. As soon as I get a new one. I'll be more than happy to scan
and upload for the forum...
It's going to be a while before I get another scanner,:mad: but on the good side, I found a scan had already been posted on
the FTP.:) I copied and uploaded to RS for those who don't have FTP access. It's a poor quality scan :(but I think you can
glean enough info from it to determine if you want to progress with the build(this is one of the more complicated DIY SMG
builds I've seen). Hopefully by the time you decide to build or not I'll have a better scan available...

Do it Yourself Submachine Gun by Gerald Metral

http://rapidshare.com/files/97648225/diy_SUB.rar.html
8.1mb
pass. roguesci.org

iHME March 9th, 2008, 07:11 PM


Thank you. Damn I HATE the new rapidshare captcha it just blows my mind. They just love to put the animals so that you
newer know if it is a Q or a O.

a3990918 March 9th, 2008, 11:21 PM


Thank you. Damn I HATE the new rapidshare captcha it just blows my mind. They just love to put the animals so that you
newer know if it is a Q or a O.

No problem. If you ever come across some of those Gingery books, on my list in the request section, I would appreciate your
letting me know.

I think RapidShit does that just to infuriate:mad: you enough to buy a Premium account.

Killy March 10th, 2008, 01:23 AM


Thanx for the book, indeed its a very bad scan,
and some pages are so blurred (on purpose ?) that you cannont read it,
I dont know why are you so enthusiastic with the book,
since this book will be for 99% of people only good study, and nothing near build.

I suggest sticking to Luty plans


(more plans I see like Holmes or this Metrals, more I think of Lutys like real genious),
and first building his creations, and than maybe try to modify it to be more advanced.
As Luty said "Im often sent design improvements by would-be gun designers",
seems like there are lot of "wise" guys that didnt build a gun and wont, but have always bunch of ideas in their pocket,
probably about everything in life.

Im working on it for few months,


by now just testing some stuff, and acquiring materials, it goes slowly, but eventually I know, something would turn up.

a3990918 March 10th, 2008, 03:53 AM


Yes, Luty's designs are by far the easiest and simplest to construct but they serve a different purpose than do the Holmes and
Metral designs. Luty's SMG is designed to be made quickly and cheaply with a minimal amount of tooling, parts and/or ability/
knowledge. While this makes for fast production it also equates to a less reliable/durable firearm. Also, since this design is
more or less handmade, parts interchangability would be almost nil.(Not to mention that you would need to manufacture
several magazines for each weapon) You could always take the time to hold tolerences close but then you would be defeating
the purpose of an expedient SMG.

Conversely, Holmes & Metral's weapons are of a more complicated design, costlier, not as quick to produce and require some
machine tools and knowledge to manufacture. However they do make use of off the shelf mags: The Metral and both of
Holmes 9mm Sub-guns use Sten mags while Holmes .22 machine pistol uses a universal mag for the Thompson .22 guns.
Using basic machine tools equipped with a DRO or better yet CNC capability, a high degree of repeatability can be acheived
thus giving greater parts interchange between weapons.

iHME March 10th, 2008, 04:14 AM


Thats completely true, the Luty smg is a expedient smg for people to fight "tyranny". The Metral and Holmes are more for
organized manufacturing. I'm still thinking about adopting a luty smg for sten or suomi mags some day. Sten for high
availability, Suomi for high capacity
doesn't the idea about a 70 round drum mag is just plain awesome. Also you could use suomi stick mags also.

And a3990918, I'll look around if I can acquire some of the publications on your list.

ChippedHammer March 10th, 2008, 05:08 AM


Thinking about making a Luty, most likely will modify it to chamber .22LR as its cheap as chips - not to mention that fact that
I could fashion a drum mag with a stupidly high capacity.

Its officially on my list of things to do :)


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neetje March 10th, 2008, 08:08 AM


I'm hearing a lot of people talking about making a Luty smg on .22lr, but I'm wondering if anybody has already build one. I
want to know how they made their magazines. .22lr is a rimmed cartridge, so it's nearly impossible to make a straight
magazine. I'd like to see how somebody improvised that ;)

a3990918 March 10th, 2008, 08:50 AM


I'm hearing a lot of people talking about making a Luty smg on .22lr, but I'm wondering if anybody has already build one. I
want to know how they made their magazines. .22lr is a rimmed cartridge, so it's nearly impossible to make a straight
magazine. I'd like to see how somebody improvised that ;)
A lot of people have talked about it, but I haven't seen anybody yet who has backed up their words. As far as the mag, I
would think an off the shelf piece would be the way to go, unless you want a really low cap mag.:(

neetje March 10th, 2008, 06:16 PM


thx for the info. I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. technically it would be called a 8x40mm.
I 'accidentally' found out a way to improvise a primer. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I saw a vid on
metacafe where somebody made a contact explosive using match heads as explosive and a cap and a nail as primer. I think
this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime).

I've bought everything I need to build the smg, I've got all the tools needed (8mm 1:50 tapered pin reamer was the hardest
to get), now I need some time to build the device... I'll update my design when I'm finished and have tried the gun :cool:

a3990918 March 10th, 2008, 07:29 PM


thx for the info. I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. technically it would be called a 8x40mm.
I 'accidentally' found out a way to improvise a primer. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I saw a vid on
metacafe where somebody made a contact explosive using match heads as explosive and a cap and a nail as primer. I think
this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime).

I've bought everything I need to build the smg, I've got all the tools needed (8mm 1:50 tapered pin reamer was the hardest
to get), now I need some time to build the device... I'll update my design when I'm finished and have tried the gun :cool:

There are different types of caps for play guns. When I was 7-8 yrs old my grandmother bought me a Musket & Pistol set (she
didn't know my dad had already given me a .22 single-shot) :eek:that shot, yes actually shot, hard cork balls. You rammed a
ball down the barrel(the guns came with ramrods), half cocked the hammer, placed a yellow plastic percussion cap on the
nipple, full cock and fire. Made a bang like a .22, from an 8yr olds view the ball flew a country mile, actually more like 30-40
feet .
These caps came in packs of 20, all fit together with legs like in a model car. Don't know if regular "Bang" caps would ignite
your charge, but these surely would. Have no idea where to get or if you can even get these caps anymore

My thoughts on a Luty gun in something other than 9mm would lean towards 7.62x39. Easy with the mags, use an SKS barrel
already chambered or make use of the thousands of .30 barrel available and chamber to fit.

I look at the Luty design as more of a guideline than a verbatim set of directions, open to everyones own interpolation and
design criteria.

neetje March 10th, 2008, 08:07 PM


There are different types of caps for play guns. When I was 7-8 yrs old my grandmother bought me a Musket & Pistol set (she
didn't know my dad had already given me a .22 single-shot) :eek:that shot, yes actually shot, hard cork balls. You rammed a
ball down the barrel(the guns came with ramrods), half cocked the hammer, placed a yellow plastic percussion cap on the
nipple, full cock and fire. Made a bang like a .22, from an 8yr olds view the ball flew a country mile, actually more like 30-40
feet .
These caps came in packs of 20, all fit together with legs like in a model car. Don't know if regular "Bang" caps would ignite
your charge, but these surely would. Have no idea where to get or if you can even get these caps anymore

My thoughts on a Luty gun in something other than 9mm would lean towards 7.62x39. Easy with the mags, use an SKS barrel
already chambered or make use of the thousands of .30 barrel available and chamber to fit.

I look at the Luty design as more of a guideline than a verbatim set of directions, open to everyones own interpolation and
design criteria.

I found an online toy store which sells to Holland (where I live). They don't sell to other countries, I guess because they are
essentially explosives packed in a little pack. I remember I used to put them under my shoes and try to set them one roll at
a time using friction :D

They cost about 3,- for a pack of 20 rolls of 8 or 12 cap rolls. It's not the ball shooter you are talking about, but more the
blank fire type (red caps).

And Luty's design is indeed a guideline. He even says so in his books. I'm taking a little bit of 'freedom' in building the smg
;)

a3990918 March 10th, 2008, 10:05 PM


Hey guys, Guess what I found?? Yes, a drastically better copy of Me'tral's book.:D Enjoy

http://rapidshare.com/files/98583841/DIY_SUB_2.rar.html

5.43mb
Pass: ROGUESCI.ORG

And Luty's design is indeed a guideline. He even says so in his books. I'm taking a little bit of 'freedom' in building the smg
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;)

Nothing like a little "Artistic Licence" to spice things up.:p

Killy March 11th, 2008, 11:52 AM


a399018, well this version is worth of better look, interesting, its smaller than the fucked up one.

7.62x39 would be like fuckin assault rifle !

Making something like that in Luty style would be insane, since Ive never seen assault rifle with open bolt conception and
open bolt with 7.62x39 cartridges !

Some kind of single shot rifle maybe, but automatic homemade rifle in that caliber, impossible for making in home.

iHME March 11th, 2008, 12:25 PM


7.62x39 would need a very heavy bolt and a sickening spring and it might still blow up. Smg's should use pistol rounds. On
the home gunsmith forums was a thread about design a assault rifle that could be made in a typical garage. It was never
finished, they ware unable to decide the locking mechanism the only one that got close was a rotating bolt (too hard for
average Joe) and retarding blowback (too unreliable). If some one wants I'll post a link to the thread(s). But let me remind
you NO RIFLE CARTRIDGE WITH NORMAL BLOWBACK IT WILL JUST BLOW UP! Blowback is not even suitable for hot pistol
loads, unless the gun is designed solely for the particular cartridge.

neetje March 11th, 2008, 02:48 PM


That it is a somewhat more dangerous gun to operate, I agree. But I'm not saying it's impossible. It has been done before.
Just look at the M60 or the M1918 BAR:

M60 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun)
M1918 BAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1918_Browning_Automatic_Rifle)

Both are open-bolt machine guns chambered for powerful bullets. No they are not Luty style, but for more power you need
more experience in building this and I guess a little bit more powerful construction materials (seamless tubing for receiver
instead of the welded tubing, for instance)

I don't think it's impossible to build something similar using a SKS/SVD barrel or similar. In fact, I think this is what we should
be doing, improvising assault weapons/high powered rifles ;)

That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us :D

If I were to emigrate to America or Switzerland or whatever, I would try to make an assault rifle like the M60, chambered in the
Russian 7.62x54R cartridge. :rolleyes:

Overpowered is what I like :cool:

iHME March 11th, 2008, 06:28 PM


But ain't the M60 gas-operated? It is true that they both fire from open bolt, but this does not make them blowback operated.
There has existed a rather heavy caliber blowback weapon, a mater of fact it was more a machine cannon then a traditional
rifle, it vas made as a anti-aircraft weapon. It used some strange type of ammunition and a overly long chamber, so that the
cartridge could be mowing backward but would still be supported by the chamber walls. There is a modern caliber of this type
made. It never really kicked of an if I recall correctly had something to do with the H&K G11 rifle (I might remember wrong).
I'll post a link to the weapon and cartridge ASAP, if I find the link or site anymore.

neetje March 11th, 2008, 06:43 PM


that's true. That's why I said it's not a luty style gun ;)

But if I'm not mistaken the barrel of a SVD (for example) has the extra piping needed above it already in place when bought.
So if you are able to buy it, it should be possible to improvise an assault weapon ;)

btw, the H&K G11, wasn't that the experimental caseless ammo assault rifle?

a3990918 March 11th, 2008, 08:30 PM


I didn't realize my comment about the 7.62x39 Luty gun would be taken so seriously. It was an inside joke for another
member.:rolleyes: Sorry for stirring up the contraversy. If I were seriously considering an upgrade on the Luty would scale up
for .45acp. The .357 Sig or .40 S&W would be worth looking at, but ammo prices perclude this...:(

shrub March 12th, 2008, 04:51 AM


I read PA lutys plan for Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-Vol-II .32/.380 machine pistol and 9mm BSP_SMG are they the same?
Is there a book for a .22 machine pistol? What would I need to change for it be able to fire .22

neetje March 12th, 2008, 01:34 PM


I didn't realize my comment about the 7.62x39 Luty gun would be taken so seriously. It was an inside joke for another
member.:rolleyes: Sorry for stirring up the contraversy. If I were seriously considering an upgrade on the Luty would scale up
for .45acp. The .357 Sig or .40 S&W would be worth looking at, but ammo prices perclude this...:(

Well even though it was a joke, trying to make one for real would be quite an accomplishment. .45 acp would be my logical
upscale choice. I've fired both 9mm and .45 and I like them both. I've never fired the .357 sig and the .40 S&W, so I'm not
going to comment on those :D
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I read PA lutys plan for Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-Vol-II .32/.380 machine pistol and 9mm BSP_SMG are they the same?

The fact that you're asking tells me you've not read them both, or were asleep while reading them. They are not the same,
even though they are similar open-bolt type smg's.

Is there a book for a .22 machine pistol? What would I need to change for it be able to fire .22

You can try Bil Holmes' "Home Workshop Guns for Defense and Resistance - Volume 3 - The .22 Machine Pistol". It can be
found on rapidshare and on the FTP. This requires a workshop to build!!!

Changing a Luty into a .22lr machine gun you would have to change:
- the bolt size and weight
- spring strength
- barrel size
- magazine and magazine well

So just about every functional part of the gun.


It's not as simple as it looks ;)

Killy March 12th, 2008, 01:55 PM


Neetje, what are you talking about, homemade M 60 or BAR ?!?

M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ???

Homemade assault rifle ???

"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade

Dont post links for G11 because this thread is not about homemade G11, or something like it.

SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ???


.45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working.

Boys, stop fantasizing, and get to real work and results, this forum is not about intellectual masturbation and philosophic
thoughts, we need some damn results and useful thoughts.

Shrub, you should read EHF Vol.I 9mm SMG, its similar to .32 (and vice-versa).

There isnt a book for .22,


but to build that, SMG size like .32/.380 could be OK,
and modifications should be made in barrel, magazine and probably firing pin

neetje March 12th, 2008, 07:13 PM


Neetje, what are you talking about, homemade M 60 or BAR ?!?

M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ???

Homemade assault rifle ???

"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade

SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ???


.45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working.

Killy I was trying to make a point. I wasn't talking about creating it, I was just saying it's possible if you have the right
experience (which I don't have, sorry to say ;) ). I know neither one of BAR or the M60 uses russian ammo, and I know the
M60 is used for suppressive fire instead of actual assaults, but it started with somebody talking about SKS barrels, 7.62x39
ammo, and open bolt smgs. The M60 is an open bolt machinegun that uses rifle ammo and the SVD rifle is one of my
favorites, so I brought it up.

And smgs in .40 S&W, .45 ACP or in 357 SIG are possible, the cartridges are reasonably small (compared to rifle ammo), just
check out this pic:

9mm/7,62/357sig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:9mm_7%2C62mm_357sig_10mm_45SW_45GAP_50AE_002 .jpg)

As you can see, the .357 SIG and .40S&W aren't much bigger then a 9mm parabellum and are still considered pistol
cartridges.

a3990918 March 12th, 2008, 07:43 PM


M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ???

Homemade assault rifle ???

"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade

Dont post links for G11 because this thread is not about homemade G11, or something like it.

SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ???


.45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working.
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Boys, stop fantasizing, and get to real work and results, this forum is not about intellectual masturbation and philosophic
thoughts, we need some damn results and useful thoughts.

Dang Killy, No disrespect but what put the burr in your butt?? This forum is FOR "philosphic thoughts" and such.
Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification
This section is for discussion about building or modifying commercial firearms, firearm repair, full-auto conversion, and
resources for DIY gunsmiths.

Please note: "Discussion About" not "Bragging,Showing Off or Stating" what you have built.
As for me, that is all you will get, is my discussion and hypotheticals. I do not look forward to a mandatory prison
sentence:mad: because I was stupid enough to get on here and brag about building illegal firearms and/or the production of
explosives.

If people only discussed things that they had actually done, then there would be a significant reduction in the number of
posts.:( The banter back and forth between members will lead to new ideas in improvised gunsmithing. Most original thought
is the result of a persons dreams or fantasies brought to fruition. If you are building something such as this you should listen
and partake in the discussions, perhaps you will glean some insight on your own projects from someone else's "Bench
Smithing".

And why not post a link to the H&K G11? This thread is discussing a blow-back operated, open bolt weapon, which according to
IMHE is what the G11 is. Studing this weapon might lead to new ideas and improvements in Luty's design or even the
production of an entirely new style of improvised weapon.

How's this for a hypothetical improvision on the Luty design. Suppose in what ever part of the world somebody lives, that
factory load rounds or brass for the .45ACP are unavailable or hard to procure. Possibly .308 blanks are not covered under the
law. Obtain some blank brass, cut it down and make something akin to low pressure .44 Auto Mag? Could be scaled back to
the performance of a .45 or slightly better, be made on the kitchen table, bandoliers of .308 blanks are cheap and readily
available, this is a rim-less round so feeding and mag. construction should not be a problem. Any ideas??

iHME March 13th, 2008, 09:06 AM


Finally found the site. The cartridge is a experimental rifle cartridge 2030, not the G11 caseless as I stated at my last post.

The cartridge (http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html) was experimental and never fielded. But I personally believe that it
will some day in the future be the cartridge of choice for militaries and law enforcement world wide. But by all means lets get
back to discussing the idea about a smg. We can make a separate thread for the assault rifle.

Also even if .357 SIG and .40 are smaller than 9mm, they are considerably more hotter in terms of the load, they also have a
more powerful recoil. Even if .45 is physically larger than 9mm it is lower pressure and thus it could be actually safer and easier
to make a improvised smg in .45 than 9mm. The .45 of cource costs more than 9mm and is bigger. So the capacity of the
small easily built single stack mags would be even more reduced. And wasn't the "minute man smg" made in .45?

a3990918 March 15th, 2008, 06:48 PM


I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I think
this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime):cool:

Saw this link in a post in the BP section. Thought it might work as a way to expedite your cartridge production.:)

http://www.lockstock.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FRTC1000

neetje March 16th, 2008, 04:49 PM


I think that proves my idea of using toy caps as primers :)

Killy June 30th, 2008, 01:54 AM


Anyone has/or could
find more info on this ?

http://yarchive.net/gun/homemade_smg.html

Video of that documentary/scene with gun testing would be very useful,


folks on this forum from UK/Ireland/Ulster
could maybe know more about that documentary or get it.

kaiserbill June 30th, 2008, 10:25 AM


Hi Killy

I too have been interested in the various "home" or "shop" made SMG's used by both sides in Northern Ireland over the
years. There is very little information on the various models made. I do know that the IRA manufactured straight copies of the
Sten. I have seen pictures of them, and they look identical to the British "factory" model. I'm not sure whether the barrels
were rifled or not.

As for the Avenger and other esoteric models, I have been looking for a while myself. Anybody else got any info?

iHME July 7th, 2008, 05:22 PM


If some one would be able to get even pictures or rough drawings of those Irish smg's it would be interesting to look at.

But now a question.


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Should I make a Luty mk1 or Luty mk2 smg lower first.
I'm still looking for 30x30 square pipe with 2,0mm wall thickness in my area.
But as I have two 300mm lengths of 30x30 pipe with 1,5mm wall thickness I have decided to make lowers for both the luty
mk1 and mk2.
And when I can get the 2,0mm pipe I can make the uppers too.

I have been thinking about making them in either 8mm or 9mm blanks.
The 8mm ones are cheaper, but with the 9mm ones I might be able to use the same bolt for blank and real cartridges.

And if I make, port and plug the barrel in a correct way it should be completely legal here.

And if I'm going to use blanks I'd have to make a reloading press style press with a crimping die to make the blanks feed
properly.

Any way it is time to reread both Lutys books on the mk1 and mk2.

kaiserbill July 8th, 2008, 05:06 AM


Hi iHME

I am probably at a similar stage to you. I have gathered some of the basic materiels and have sourced almost all the rest. I
think it is important to do this as I've found that if you are not in the UK as P Luty is, you will most likely find that not all the
exact tube sizes are available. An example of this is in my country. I legally own a 9mm pistol, so ammunition is no problem.
However, there are no SMT/SHT tubes with the correct 9mm bore available here. I have access to a friend who runs an
engineering shop who will bore and polish a suitable barrel out of steel for me though, so I'm lucky in that regard.

I should be able to commence with my build in about a month or so, time permitting. I have only basic tools in my garage,
but do have access to a small lathe and then obviously my engineer friend has all the equipment needed. I would prefer to
use him only when absolutely essential though. I intend building Lutys' 9mm Machine Pistol with the magazine body made
from a single piece of rectangular tubing. I intend following the design as faithfully as possible as part of my learning process.
Any major modifications or improvements will be limited to a possible follow on construction.

Good luck on your project, and please let me know how you are progressing.

iHME July 8th, 2008, 09:26 AM


I'm currently trying to force my self to finally make a pistol of my own design before the luty smg.
Why? Well with the .22lr and the style of the design there is practically zero possibility of explosive failure. It also permits me
to experiment with barrels and suppressors in a wery easy manner. If design the firing pin correctly I should be able to convert
it from .22lr to 6.8 HILTI by simply changing the barrel.
Down sides are that it would be a pain in the ass to reload in a hurry.
As a clue I'll say that it includes 16mm bolts and nuts with 21,3mm pipe with 16mm id. :rolleyes:
I'll make a separate thread for the pistol of mine when I finnish the first prototype.

On the luty smg, I'll make the mk1 lower first and later the mk2 lower.
I don't have a friend with a lathe, so I have to make with the tools I have and that I can make or improvise.
Thank god that I have a angle and a bench grinder along with my semi-improvised drill press.

jolly_roger187 August 24th, 2008, 08:10 PM


To my recollection, Phill Luty designed his first firearm in '97-'98 -The infamous 'Expedient Homemade Firearms, The 9mm
Submachine gun'. In which he paid dearly for.

We all agree?

Right, now after more than 10 years of his 'fictional' crude contraptions, along with various books, diagrams and so-called
blueprints, how many of us have actually seen a fully functioning article- of any of his devices?

Not a single Luty de sign has e ver reportedly been produced , that s a fact, although m any attempts have been m ade.

A classic example of theory being just that- Nothing more.

I could add lots of pictures of the 380/.32 EHF Vol.2 parts that I have made and assembled, and also list the reasons of why
in practice, that this gun would not functio n but I d rather you find out for yourselves.

Following this, is a link to a British site where you can acquire most of the material for this build.

http://www.hublebas.co.uk/

I would like someone to prove me wrong I really would, but after so much time and effort I have put into his work, just too
may modifications would have to be made, rendering his work merely a blank canvas!

kaiserbill August 25th, 2008, 11:49 AM


Here is an update of my project. I've just started the 9mm Luty machine pistol vol 3.

I was intending to use a steering shaft for my barrel. A friend donated one to me, and a second friend who owns an
engineering concern was going to bore it out for me. Unfortunately, the shaft has not proved suitable due to it already having
a bore of slightly larger than 9mm diameter. I only found this out once it was in my posession and after a little cutting. I have
now resorted to sawing a piece of a defective air rifle barrel off and will hand this over to be bored and polished to the correct
9mm diameter. The barrel outside diameter is 15mm and is therefor identical to the tubing Mr Luty used.

I have access to a lathe at night, so on Friday night I will machine the bolt from roundstock. I will have help on this as I've
never worked as a metalworker or machinest. I'm hoping my little project will educate me a little more in this field. I've found
that not all the tubing in my country is identical to that in the book, but I intend to match them as closely as possible and
adjust where necessary. I hope to post some pictures in the next week or 2.
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neetje August 29th, 2008, 07:39 AM
Not a single Luty de sign has e ver reportedly been produced , that s a fact, although m any attempts have been m ade.

You're wrong, somebody has already made it. Check this post from killy:

Here is the only reproduction of Luty project on the net that I found.
It is from page
http://www.geocities.com/homemadefirepower/
that is blank right now (and would stay probably forever)

Although the link is dead now, it did show a complete build of the luty smg. The author remarked he hadn't fired it in full auto,
but had fired several single shots with it. I hope the link comes up once again, but I doubt it.

I can look up some of the pictures that were on the site, but I'd have to check my old computer. Send me a pm if you want
these pics ;)

kaiserbill August 29th, 2008, 09:18 AM


Correct neetje. I remember that site when it was up.

Jolly-roger, have you considered that the type of person making a Luty machine pistol is most likely going to be living in a
country where ownership of those types of weapon is frowned upon? Otherwise, he would just go out and buy a factory
produced SMG. Therefore it stands to reason that it is hardly likely that people would advertise a complete weapon...

I must admit I'm still debating whether to post any pictures of my project once I finish it.

This of course is not to deny that there will most likely have to be a fair amount of modification and "hand-fitting" of any
completed project. This I always expected. I'm also finding that different countries have different tube sizes, so a fair amount
of improvisation will have to be done even before the first hole is drilled. I will most likely find it necessary to modify quite a
bit during my construction....

I have now all Luty's plans, Bill Holmes 3 machine pistol plans, as well as Metrals' design. I believe that solutions can be
found to any submachine gun design, given the fact that an SMG is quite a basic weapon....

iHME August 29th, 2008, 12:34 PM


Be sure to post the pic's. Just say that while you ware searching info on home built smg's you stumbled upon this
site...blah...blah. Or something similar.
My Luty project is on hold. I simply don't have enough time for it.
And I'm concentrating my efforts in .22lr ones, safer and cheaper.
First single shot pistol then single shot bolt action pistol, semi-auto compact smg eating 10/22 mags and looking similar to
Holmes .22 smg.
The main idea is to make them so easy to make that no machining is required. Why? I don't have anything fancier than a
angle grinder and a table grinder.

Setharier October 19th, 2008, 06:42 PM


Hi people,

I didn't want to make new thread since we're discussing about smg's anyway. I have been offered deactivated UZI smg which I
think I could be able to reactivate. I am still to ask how it has been destroyed. Most likely there is metal plug in the barrel and
the bolt has been destroyed, but the parts in general are all moving. Does anybody know more of deactivated guns like this
and how feasible they are to reactivate with post drill, welding machine and a sanding/grinding machine? I wouldnt't like to
purchase it only to see it has been fully cut apart due to high price(nearly 2 grands).

festergrump October 19th, 2008, 09:02 PM


For $2000 you could do SO much better. I'd pass on that deal with no more info about it, to be completely honest.

Is it a blank firer?

I'm not savvy to UZ1s in general, but in most other demilled, non-firing replicas they use a plastic or aluminum receiver and a
totally non-funtioning bolt. (it's just outwardly appearing to be cosmetically correct. Besides the barrel drilling, if needed or at
all possible, you'd be in need of many more hard to obtain parts to make it function at all, IMHO. If the barrel is plugged
somehow, they pretty much make sure it's beyond repair in those cases. Drilling the weld or plug could mess it up entirely if
welded from the breech, especially.

If in the case of a blank-firing replica made from original parts, however, you may just need a new barrel, but I cannot swear
to that, to be completely honest with you.

Might try some people who have a serious love for Israeli weapons, though. Try http://www.uzitalk.com for a better grasp on
your prospective purchase...

Link to the ad or seller would maybe help, too.

Setharier October 20th, 2008, 07:23 AM


The UZI is real 9mill, not a replica. Blank firers use to blow up after couple of shots. The salesman answered it has been
deactivated by drilling the bolt head to disable the striker and a pin drilled and welded through the chamber. Completely
disassemblable, no other parts welded nor stolen. And trust me, at the site there's no any info about the gun, just a pic from
the left side and a price tag - secondly, the language would be something nobody really understands :cool:

The pin through chamber worries me most. It can somehwat easily be reinforced by drilling a bit from the sides and welding a
couple of mills but there still might be danger of blowing or ripping apart the chamber when firing. The pin is made of
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hardened steel but you say it, tungsten carbide drills, even diamond drills can be bought from hardware store.

For 2 grands, if I just dare to ask you, how could one obtain compact durable genral calibre full-auto? In europe one can not
just purchase a working semi-auto gun and saw it pieces and turn to full-auto. :rolleyes:

kaiserbill October 20th, 2008, 10:36 AM


Setharier, there have been different methods to de-activate firearms used. Certainly in the UK, the de-activation process has
been made much more stringent in the last 15 years or so.

Generally speaking, firearms de-activated before this period/new legislation have proved to be relatively easier to re-activate,
and therefor command much higher prices. Perhaps your Uzi is one of these, although "2 grand" seems a very steep asking
price! Many of the Yardie gangster hits have been carried out by such weapons.

This is in the UK though, so I'm not too sure how it is in the rest of Europe.

Killy October 23rd, 2008, 09:10 PM


Searching for any info on "Avenger" sub-machine gun (for info scroll few pages back on thread)
I found this, its a picture of few "terrorists" from North Ireland, which maybe show that smg:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3861/uff1ck3.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uff1ck3.jpg)http://
img20.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Well, here we have 3 creations, the left one looks even like its one of Luty designs ("smg vol.3"),
the right is fitted with some kind of silencer, and in the center even looks like something not home-made.

Antoher pic. I found, Its another home-made smg that mi5 acquired investigating on North Ireland loyalist groups in 1995 :

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9086/mi51995uvffa2.th.gif (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=mi51995uvffa2.gif)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Its a small and bad picture, but grip looks like from revolver !

It would be higly appreciated if we have anybody on forum thats from Ireland and have some more info on subject.

sbovisjb1 October 23rd, 2008, 09:49 PM


@Killy: You mentioned you had started this project, how far are you into it?

Killy October 24th, 2008, 08:25 PM


@Killy: You mentioned you had started this project, how far are you into it?

Gears still turning, time will tell :)

sbovisjb1 October 24th, 2008, 09:28 PM


How far? Do you have any pictures of the progress?

somtec October 25th, 2008, 03:26 PM


Hi Killy
If you are interested in homemade weapons used in N. Ireland then I can recommend getting a copy of Small Arms Review
March 2007. Its got 10 pages of info and many photos of improvised guns used including the avenger smg, mainly made by
loyalist forces as the IRA had more funding and better contacts.

Aborted Fetus October 31st, 2008, 08:01 PM


Searching for any info on "Avenger" sub-machine gun (for info scroll few pages back on thread)
I found this, its a picture of few "terrorists" from North Ireland, which maybe show that smg:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3861/uff1ck3.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uff1ck3.jpg)http://
img20.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

The SMG in the center is a Danish Madsen M-50


http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg60-e.htm

Killy November 2nd, 2008, 10:35 PM


Good eye Fetus, its really Madsen.

(note : pictures are pretty big)

It seems like his lefty and righty lads have notorious "Avenger" (manufactured about 10 years ago)
finaly got info on them from good friend :

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7771/avengerqx7.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=avengerqx7.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7518/avenger2io7.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
image=avenger2io7.jpg)http://img219.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

30 years ago, this rectangular design was popular :


Here is video, unfortunately not of machine gun in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBQxKQo2cE

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8314/avengswernr0.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=avengswernr0.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Pretty heavy barrel on these square section smg.
Since no bolts are visible on side of barrel shroud end, I guess the barrel is pinned in place by welding or soldering.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4205/rectangularsidecf8.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=rectangularsidecf8.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Another design, this is made from round tubing, first one with magazine on side, second has magazine under :
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7328/round1jf7.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=round1jf7.jpg)http://img221.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8739/round2pr0.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=round2pr0.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Apparently, those rectanglar and round designs look like they are based on smg from the book
"improvised weapons of american underground",
another info for that is from magazine Firepower, article (1984)
called ".45 minuteman SMG", its available on net, but horrible scan, maybe somebody could find better.

Bugger November 3rd, 2008, 12:37 AM


(cut)Apparently, those rectanglar and round designs look like they are based on smg from the book "improvised weapons of
american underground", another info for that is from magazine Firepower, article (1984) called ".45 minuteman SMG", its
available on net, but horrible scan, maybe somebody could find better.
http://fileshunt.com/?q=minuteman , second-to-last item on page - links to a rapidshare download.

kaiserbill November 3rd, 2008, 04:30 AM


Excellent work sourcing those pictures Killy.

As is apparent, the SMG can be quite a basic weapon, whilst the magazines seem always to be sourced from existing designs.

I have just read your PM, but I've been busy with work commitments and a work related trip, but I hope to inform of my
progress so far, which has not been as much as I hoped. Perhaps the Christmas holidays will provide some of the time I
need...

Good work on those drawings Killy. I think it's the first time the Avenger SMG has been posted on the internet. I certainly have
never been able to find much.

iHME November 3rd, 2008, 10:41 AM


Now I'm suprised how much they resemble the luty creations. Maybe loty gor some of his inspiration from here?
Anyway a good look, hi-res pics of improvised weapons are rather few and far between.

somtec November 3rd, 2008, 06:35 PM


Back in the good old days when we could have handguns here in the UK I used to shoot IPSC practical pistol and there used to
be a bunch of RUC guys who would come over and shoot on the mainland. During a conversation with one of them he stated
that homemade guns were quite common but most were based on existing magazines be it sten, sterling whatever and that
they commanded a high price as all sides struggled to get enough good magazines.
Most jams are usually magazine related in some way so it can be the most difficult part to make and function as it should
therefore an existing magazine is probably the best way to go but the magwell etc would of course need to be redesigned to
suit.

somtec November 6th, 2008, 04:58 PM


Not sure if you have seen this video or what you think of it. Yes I know its only a replica made of thin guage steel etc but I can
see definate potential in the way its made for other purposes being discussed in this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjv6jkd9-3E

iHME November 8th, 2008, 08:59 AM


That Thompson replica is just SWEET I want one!

jlwilliams November 9th, 2008, 08:57 AM


One could build a TSMG type gun using the types of materials and techniques shown in the youtube film. The original
Thompsons were over built to a near absurd point. Many of the real SMGs I have handled were made of fairly light material.
The Sten is obviously a good example. The MP5 (first full auto I fired) is also made of more elaborately stamped metel, but
still just stamped metal and plastic. The Mac series of subguns are well known for their ruggedness, being among the most
popular for machine gun competitions here in the US, and they are no more than bent metal sheet about .080 thick. My
personal SMG (legallly owned) is a Stemple 76-45 and it's no more elaborate than a Sten and it works well and safely. Point
being if you had all the Thompson parts like the lower assembly, barrel, mags and the like that the guy in the youtube clip
had, you could fabricate a steel tube and bent and welded sheet steel gun that would work quite effectively.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Full auto conversio n of
t h e B a i k a l D r o z d C O 2 gun.

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View Full Version : Full auto conversion of the Baikal Drozd CO2 gun.

Macgyver Novem ber 11th, 2004, 01:40 AM


Thought this might be interesting to lo ok at, at least for us people in Europe that get the single shot version only when we b uy
a Drozd.

http://www.flopped.org/~m ykrowyre/drozd/

Have tried th is m od myself, works real good...

Jacks Complete Novem ber 15th, 2004, 09:04 PM


I f a n y o n e k n ows where to buy one of these Drozd from in the UK, post details!

Macgyver Novem ber 16th, 2004, 02:09 AM


Try York guns, I got m ine from there.

http://www.yorkguns.co.uk

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > R emington 1100 full-
auto ???

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View Full Version : Remington 1100 full-auto ???

DroppinLead January 9th, 2005, 10:25 PM


Yeah yeah, I seen the Fully auto 12 gauge thread.

But a lot peo ple were referring to the amazon or loom panics book sales links in which I'd have to fork over an undisclosed
a m ount of cash for a conversion book that for the m ost part , wont be easily acco mplished or even work for that m atter.

C a n t s o m e o n e t h a t h a s s a i d e x o t i c w e a p o n s s y s t e m b o o k o n t h e r e m ington 1100 m a k e i t a v a i l a b l e o n l i n e a s h a v e s o m a n y
other conversions like the SKS to Full auto , or the Semi to Full-auto AK47 select fire conversion?
I m ean damnit jim! I'm no tig ht ass, but for what my ru ger 10/2 2 exotic weapons system b o o k g o t m e a n d m y open bolt 10/
2 2 b o o k d i d t o o , I ' l l b e d a m ned if I get ripped off again.

I've got a few different files I can contribute , b u t I ' m g o n n a h a v e t o m a k e s u r e y o u g u y s a r e n t 1 0 s t e p s a h e a d o f m e o n


recieving them . : c o n f u s e d :

billybobobrain May 18th, 2008, 01:39 AM


I ' v e h a d m ildly good luck with the rugger 10/22 conversion.

I screwed up several parts at first. Plus you have to be able to figgure out that so me of th e " T e m p lates" are not the right
scale, m esure them and convert them .

It works after about 60 m an h ours of cutting and filing.

by the way this is not a good project for a Drem el tool.

Also the aternate trip mechanism, which there are no tem plates for is the best set up.

MorrisOK May 22nd, 2008, 08:36 PM


I'm sure that there is nobody on this site who is foolish enough to think that they are anonym ous online, b ut just in case I feel
the need to post in this thread regarding the previous two posts.

The way the last post reads, it sounds like billybobobrain was already attem pted an illegal conversion, and has basically
a d m itted it in a public forum. I'm sure this is not the case, and it is merely that there is a misunderstanding of som e sort, b ut
care should be used with how things are worded here. This particular site happens to be on a lot of watch lists.

All o f the information I have collected, shared, or viewed is used for ente rtainm ent and education only. I would never attem p t
an actual project based on information such as what you are discussing. As I'm sure nobody else here would. One m ight say
that the information they received from one of these books was worthless intellectually, but I wouldn't word it to sou nd like I
had tried it a nd failed.

It doesn't take much for FEDs to get search warrants for things like illega l weapons. An adm ission of guilt in a public online
forum m ight be enough for the BATFE to drop in for a visit.

I didn't m ean to write such a large, nagging, post. My m ain poin t is just to be careful how you word things online. I would hate
t o f i n d o u t t h a t s o m e k i d g o t r a i d e d a n d a r r e s t e d o n s o m e bullshit charge because of a m isinterpreted post.

Sampson1986 A ugus t 6t h, 2008, 09: 31 PM


I'm sure that there is nobody on this site who is foolish enough to think that they are anonym ous online, b ut just in case I feel
the need to post in this thread regarding the previous two posts.

The way the last post reads, it sounds like billybobobrain was already attem pted an illegal conversion, and has basically
a d m itted it in a public forum. I'm sure this is not the case, and it is merely that there is a misunderstanding of som e sort, b ut
care should be used with how things are worded here. This particular site happens to be on a lot of watch lists.

All o f the information I have collected, shared, or viewed is used for ente rtainm ent and education only. I would never attem p t
an actual project based on information such as what you are discussing. As I'm sure nobody else here would. One m ight say
that the information they received from one of these books was worthless intellectually, but I wouldn't word it to sou nd like I
had tried it a nd failed.

It doesn't take much for FEDs to get search warrants for things like illega l weapons. An adm ission of guilt in a public online
forum m ight be enough for the BATFE to drop in for a visit.

I didn't m ean to write such a large, nagging, post. My m ain poin t is just to be careful how you word things online. I would hate
t o f i n d o u t t h a t s o m e k i d g o t r a i d e d a n d a r r e s t e d o n s o m e bullshit charge because of a m isinterpreted post.

Excellent advice. As far as I know, BATFE officia ls investigate every alleged NFA violation.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Great .22 suppressor design

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View Full Version : Great .22 suppressor design

DaedalusX January 23rd, 2005, 09:47 PM


http://ww w.happynanoq.dk/silencer/

Looks very professional compared to the 'homeshop' or 'homebench' silencer made from pvc pipes and coke cans.

Third_Rail February 22nd, 2005, 07:54 PM


I hadn't seen that webpage before, thanks for sharing.

I wouldn't have thought of using a maglight body, but thinking about it more it seems like the perfect item to start w ith.

Gedi February 23rd, 2005, 10:08 AM


Looking at the suppressor design, looks like it could easily be made. One question, I have a 1/2 unf 28tpi die set from dynasystems, but does anyone know where to get a 1/2
unf 28tpi tap? Thanks

skier4life99 February 23rd, 2005, 04:15 PM


I must agree with Third_Rail, a maglight body would be a perfect item to use; I had done a bunch of research at the US Patent and Trademark Office (http://w ww.uspto.gov/)
and found several interesting designs, but this one seems to surpass them all in ingenuity.

I do have one question though... How did you make/acquire the "nylon / delrin rod" that you used for the central baffling? Was it a solid piece that you carved and drilled?
Thanks in advance for answering...

Anthony February 24th, 2005, 02:50 PM


Anyone else getting a server error when trying that link?

tomu February 24th, 2005, 03:14 PM


Anyone else getting a server error when trying that link?

Yes, same with me, couldn't find server.

As to using a Maglite body as a supressor tube, w ell this seems a bit expensive to me. Why doesn't he use a normal Al-tube? Al-tubes are available in any imaginable size at
reasonable prices, certainly much cheaper than a Maglite.

skier4life99 February 24th, 2005, 04:39 PM


If you get the page to load, you will see that he makes good use out of the internals of the maglight body, including the threading, the battery cap, and the spring. Plus it's
'prettier' than a standard piece of AL Tubing and has 'built-in' grip for tightening and loosening it...

DaedalusX February 24th, 2005, 04:41 PM


Here is the google cache: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:B4nooZznmJgJ:www.happynanoq.dk/silencer/+&hl= en&client=firefox-a

btw delrin seems pretty expensive ...

Right now I'm trying to do it on a M4/AR15, I don't know if the aluminium body will be enough for the pressure of a 223 round. Most 223 silencers are 300 series stainless
steels.
http://ww w.advanced-armament.com/products/rifles/ranger.asp
http://ww w.gem-tech.com/m4-96d.html
http://ww w.impactguns.com/store/knights_m4qd_silencer.html

Gedi February 24th, 2005, 09:00 PM


The delrin rod can be bought from several places. Be sure to measure the inner diameter of the maglight and then order one a little smaller. I used the diameter of a d-cell
which is about 32.3~34.2mm which is about 1 5/16 inch.

Just do a google search for delrin. Also, w hen you order, there is minimum cost, so be sure to add extra feet to the length. I ended up getting 3 feet for the same as a foot, just
because of the minimum cost.

cyclonite4 February 24th, 2005, 09:37 PM


I had a similar problem viewing the link, it timed out.

I remember searching google a few months ago on silencer designs, and reached a w ebsite w hich involved making silencers from maglite torch casings, this may be the same
one, or a different site, running on the same idea.

They looked quite impressive, and could be dissasembled for cleaning by unscrewing the battery cover.

Is this the same thing?

And IIRC, the guy was trying to sell them from his website.

cyclonite4 February 24th, 2005, 09:39 PM


As to using a Maglite body as a supressor tube, w ell this seems a bit expensive to me. Why doesn't he use a normal Al-tube? Al-tubes are available in any imaginable size at
reasonable prices, certainly much cheaper than a Maglite.

Maybe the maglite could be reassembled later to disguise the silencer, they are illegal in a lot of countries aren't they?

Bert February 25th, 2005, 11:12 AM


Maybe the maglite could be reassembled later to disguise the silencer, they are illegal in a lot of countries aren't they?

That maglite w ill never be re-assembeled again- He's used a lathe to cut away the end w ith the switch button and permanently affixed the barrel end bushing w here it once
was.

Nice design making use of OTC product- and maglites come up to 6-"D" cell.

BTW, link w orked fine for me.

tomu February 25th, 2005, 05:24 PM


The most interesting thing is the delrin part. But yes if I had too small a brain and too much money I would use a very heavy Al-Tube from a Maglite to make a supressor for a
.22 l.r. Btw. this strenght of Al-tubing would be allright for the .223 Remington.

Buying a knurling tool would probably be cheaper and he could make more nice looking supressors for all his other rifles as well.

My guess is any Al-tubing is pretty much OTC, well maybe not the Al-tubes used in gasultracentrifuges.

doggie February 25th, 2005, 05:52 PM


This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
I dont see why it couldnt be made to look like the regular maglite. Concealment is handy in any case.

just use a led and button batteries to give the illusion that the maglite was still just an operational flashlight (illustration below)

<a href="http://img115.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img115&image=silenceedit0jx.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img115.exs.cx/img115/5702/silenceedit0jx.th.jpg"


border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www .ImageShack.us" /> < / a >

malzraa February 28th, 2005, 08:19 PM


If the delrin rod won't hold the pressure of a 5.56mm NATO round, w hy not use a piece of aluminum or stainless steel and just lathe it out?

horadrim March 1st, 2005, 10:10 AM


Tw o years ago I made a supressor for my Remington 597 .22LR out of a 3 D-cell Maglite that w as gathering dust. I spent about six months designing it to perform as w ell or
better than what w as on the market.

The common link I found in all the designs I looked at was the ratio between the gas volume generated by the pow der charge, the bore volume, and the internal volume of the
supressor. This ratio (w ich I call the expansion factor) ranged from 13 - 17. My design has an internal volume of 11.19 in3 across 13 baffles, giving it an EF of 13.

The baffles were made from aircraft aluminum stock and the spacers were turned and bored from stock PVC pipe. The muzzle adapter w as made from the same aluminum as
the baffles and was tapped w ith 1/2-28 UNF threads. The rifle muzzle was CNC machined to ensure less than .005" TIR runout.

I still have the Excel spreadsheet and Solidworks files if anyone is interested.

Even though the 597 is a semi-auto, this supressor preforms extremely w ell w et or dry. All that you hear is the hammer and the round impact when using Dynamit Nobel
subsonic .22LR ammo. At 100 yards without the supressor, groups average .75". With the supressor, groups average .5".

This HappyNanoq doesn't seem to be utilising the maglites internal volume to its full potential and the more baffled chambers there are, the more effective it w ill be.

skier4life99 March 1st, 2005, 04:18 PM


I've been thinking quite a bit on this design and I have to agree w ith Doggie... though it would not be pretty while on the w eapon... if a bushing could be made that would fit
INSIDE of the Al-Tubing, it could be placed distal to the rubber of the switch. This way w hen removed from the w eapon, it could have the head of the light screwed back on and
a rubber plug placed in the battery cap exit-hole, and voila, a maglite that appears operational but is really a silencer.

BTW, Gedi, thanks for the note about googling for Delrin...since DaedalusX w as from Eur, I thought it was a product from there, as I didn't recognize the name...

bigbadgrinch August 28th, 2005, 11:37 PM


can find the new site at :rolleyes:

http://ww w.happynanoq.dk/22lrsilencer/

dragginbody365 June 25th, 2006, 11:10 PM


What's a good place to buy a 1/2x28 tap for such a project?

Also, since everything has to be perfect, when threading the hole, what do you guys reccomend to ensure a perfect perpendicular tapped hole?

Third_Rail June 27th, 2006, 05:33 PM


Use a lathe, if you have one.

nbk2000 June 27th, 2006, 10:11 PM


Or chuck the tap in a drill press and use that as a support for turning straight threads.

Jaxxxom June 27th, 2006, 11:58 PM


I'd love to build this suppressor, but I'm hung up! After actually seeing the finished one as well as the various parts, I think I could do it. I'm just hung up on the "bushing" that
was used. If someone has a picture or even the plans for this design that shows the bushing, I'd really apperciate it!

pdphill August 28th, 2006, 10:45 PM


Jaxxxom:
I believe I understand the concept of the stainless steel bushing, however, the brass "washer" that attaches to the front of the bushing prior to the nylon tube is a puzzle,
although I can imagine several versions. If you understand how that is built to allow for a chamber between the brass w asher and the bushing, I'll trade info.

In reviewing old US Patent Office files on firearm suppressors (Patent #4,530,417) it appears that cooling of the combustion gases assists the reduction in sound. Has anyone
tried placing aluminum, brass or copper w ool (similar to steel wool) in the voids to absorb heat and sound?

FU TI August 29th, 2006, 02:30 PM


pdphill I didn't read that patent file but I think that if they mention cooling of the combustion gases didn't think along the lines you have proposed. They probably meant
adiabatic cooling caused by rapid expansion of gases. Maybe fine wool you proposed or find in the patent can play a venting role on side ports of the suppressor(permit uniform
passage of gas flow from high pressure to atmospheric but after some specific onset point/pressure). Couple different meshes to compensate for pressure drop through
suppressor and I believe you w ould get fine result. But that design will be too fragile due to materials used.

DorikinGTSt September 18th, 2006, 08:59 AM


w w w.silencertests.com has a great forum.

++ ++++ =

If you're going to provide a link, please be bothered to make it complete, eh? ;) NBK

hot04wrx February 17th, 2007, 11:08 PM


So far, the best place on the web to find a 1/2 x 28 tpi tap is McMaster -Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/) industrial supply company. I ordered one and it was at my house in
48 hours after I ordered it. I found another site which is slightly cheaper but will have to dig through my pc to find the link. Hope this helps guys.

SecondAmendmentINC January 27th, 2008, 11:37 AM


After reading pdphill's comment regular window screen or steel wool can help on absorbing the heat that is generated, roll it around a wooden dowel or similar item. You should
also smear white lithium grease on the screen or steel wool to further reduce the heat generated by the shot. In turn it reduces the sound.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > SKS full auto conversion w/pics

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View Full Version : SKS full auto conversion w/pics

lowjack February 14th, 2005, 09:15 PM


After seeing a members ASCII art outlining the SKS auto conversion sears, I figured maybe someone might as well see the real deal and not rely on those outstandingly
erronious diagrams.. Step by step...Here is the SKS F/A conversion...
Enjoy!

Taken from sks Full-auto .pdf:

Neil Sherman, PSC, Ed/AmAnon Press


1929 McGhee Road, New Market, TN 37820
Phone 615-475-4311 or 615-475-4696
EIN: 62-1172451 SSN: 408-25-7730
FFL's: 01-3K-19402, 03-3K-20249, 06-3K-20250

THE DOWN-N-DIRTY FULL-AUTO SKS (And Sumthin' Extra)

I don't know whether this 'conversion' meets original Mil' Spec'


or not. Haven't checked into it. I do know it works.

The *.PCX Files, Sear1, Sear2, and Sear3, should help you out
much more than these notes. If you can't view *.PCX files, let me
know, I can supply *.TIF, *.MSP, *.IMG, *.CUT, & *.GX1 formats.
The reason I didn't include them is simply to keep the file
package smaller, hopefully increasing your incentive to get it.

The Graphics Files were all drawn BY ME, in PC Paintbrush, using


my own scanner to capture rough 'tracings' made from my own gun.
I did NOT copy anyone elses stuff. There is no Copyright Problem
since I did all the work - In other words, feel free to spread
'em around - and put the full "blame" on me.

The first thing you gotta do, before you even consider making the
conversion, is KNOW HOW TO DISASSEMBLE YOUR TRIGGER GROUP (Not
just take it out, but strip it down to it's major components). If
you don't know how to do that, even after studying the thing for
twenty minutes, then forget it!

Once you get your trigger group out, you must first remove the
Hammer. The hammer has a 'nub' at the bottom which acts as a
SECONDARY Disconnect. Cut that 'nub' off.

Now look at the underside of the hammer. The 'raised' portion, in


front of the Mainspring Shaft, is the Hammer's Sear. You'll need
to cut a channel where the 'nub' used to be, about as wide as the
'nub, to about 3/32 of an inch from the edge of that sear (where
the Mainspring Shaft is).

So long as you leave that little bit of a 'wall' on that end of


the Hammer's Sear, the Full-Auto Trip will 'catch' and hold the
hammer back until the Bolt/Carrier is in Battery. If you cut all
the way through that wall, your gun will be unreliable at best
but will probably NOT fire full since the Hammer will merely
"ride" the bolt all the way closed and never deliver a definite
and independent impact to the firing pin. In any case, Once
you've cut that channel, the Hammer work is done.

In the Trigger Group, under the Hammer, you will find the PRIMARY
Disconnect. When you force the hammer BACK, you will notice the
bottom of the Hammer pushes down on two tits of THIS Disconnect
(One on either side, though it's a single 'folded' unit). You
only have to remove as much metal from these tits as it takes to
prevent the Hammer from contacting them. Once you've got that
done, the Disconnect work is finished.

Next comes the Primary Sear. This is the "Block" located at the
forward end of the trigger group. It is pushed backward by a
Spring that fits between this Sear and the Magazine Catch.

There's an Inspection Hole on the Left side of the Trigger Group


for you to view this Primary Sear Engagement. Take Note of the
ANGLE of Engagement. What you need to do is IMPROVE THAT
ENGAGEMENT to prevent it from becoming dislodged during recoil.

With the Primary Sear Block removed, cut a "shelf" onto it that
you will be able to see through the Inspection Hole. Here too,
you want this "shelf" to be about 3/32 of an inch thick. You
won't need it more than 3/32 of an inch deep either. Once you've
got this "shelf" done, you move on to the Trigger Sear.

The Trigger Sear is a "T"-Shaped Bar you can see best only by
pulling up on the Full Auto Trip (The big, angled thing that
sticks up out front of the Hammer). If you haven't removed the
Primary Disconnect (discussed a little ways back) then do so now
or you won't be able to finish the job! The front end of the
Trigger Sear only needs to be reshaped to fit securely on the
Shelf you cut into the Sear Block.

Once you've got the Trigger Sear reshaped, reassemble the Trigger
Group and put it back in the gun and have a field day.

If you want to 'dry fire' the thing, go ahead. It will be quite


informative to those of us who do not know how a Closed-Bolt
Machine Gun functions. With the Trigger pulled back, hang on to
the Carrier Handle and slowly let the bolt slide forward, toward
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Battery. If you did it right, the Bolt will STOP JUST SHORT of
Full Battery position. The breach will still be slightly open.

This is the point at which the Full Auto Sear is 'critical'. Any
movement forward, from here, pushes the Full Auto Trip Down,
disengaging the Full Auto Sear and letting the Hammer Drop.
Because there is some distance, now, between the Hammer and the
Firing Pin, there is a time-lag between when the Bolt Shuts and
when the Hammer hits home. In a Closed-Bolt system, this timing
is basically the only thing that ensures the gun will go off!

I've had to rework enough guns, already, however, to know that


just because all works well during a Dry Fire test, does not mean
it will work with live rounds. All such 'failures' had one thing
in common, though - The Trigger Sear disengaged under Recoil.
Once a Definite and undeniable 'notch', or 'shelf' is put in
place to engage the Trigger Sear to the Sear Block, the gun
functioned Full-Auto. Simply improving the angle of the
engagement proved wholly unreliable.

BUT - An Improved Angle is the only way to get Select-Fire. In


which case, you simply place a Spring (Arched, 'Hair Pin', or
Coil) under the Trigger Sear, inside the trigger group. This
spring keeps upward pressure on the Trigger Sear. You also need a

flat piece of Sheet Steel about a half inch wide. You'll then
need to 'bend' this piece of sheet steel to fit around the
outside of the trigger group, starting at the point between the
Hammer and the Primary Disconnect, to fill in the "gap" you made
by relieving the Primary Disconnect as described earlier, and
wrapping around the Trigger Group clear to the same place on the
opposite side. This little gizmo, if made right, will 'slide'
back and forth. Full Auto will have it fully to the rear, Semi-
will be had by pushing it forward, jamming it between the Hammer
and the Disconnect. It's more of a Pain in the ass than it's
worth, though, since you can actually shoot Double-taps within
the first ten rounds you ever load - And you should find yourself
shooting singles within the first twenty.

Here's a Bonus. Save yourself $20 or so and KEEP YOUR BAYONET


USEFUL. Cut your own "Muzzle Brake"/"Compensator". All it takes
is a Hacksaw and a pocket knife or screw-driver. Look at your
front sight. You'll see it's a got an 'integral sleeve' on it.
Lay your Hacksaw on that sleeve, about 3/16 of an inch from the
BACK (Your on the Sleeve NOT The Barrel) - Angle the saw at about
45 Degrees (The Top of the Saw angled toward the Receiver) and
begin cutting.

First you'll cut through the sleeve, and then through the barrel.
Cut a little shy of the half-way mark (You want SOME Barrel
there, and you want the gas to go more "up" than "out"). Move the
blade about two blade widths forward (Toward the Sight base), and
cut another slot. You have room for about 5 slots if you done it
right. If you done it wrong, Hell! Just file out all the middle
'vents', leaving you a big gaping hole (I did that to mine as a
way to clear mud - I carry the gun over the Shoulder, muzzle down
- Sometimes when you sit down....uh....well, you know)

When you're done with the saw, use a pocket knife or screw-driver
to 'pick out' the burrs the saw left behind. When you fire the
gun, you will notice a 'difference' in the recoil. It's not less,
it's not more, it's just 'different'. But you will notice a BIG
Difference in your shot-string! All things being equal, the gun
wants to shoot in circles, instead of vertically!

Now you have a Comp' withOUT Sacrificing your Bayonet!

Mounting a Supressor is just a matter of using one of those "Slip


On"/'Turn-n-Lock' Muzzle Brakes first - This will seal the
Integral Brake you cut in, and it gives you a 'Mounting Point' by
allowing you to thread the full length of the External Brake.

A Supressor is really nothing more than a couple of tubes, one


smaller than the other, some steel wool or fiberglass batting, a
3/8" dowel, a couple of Toilet "Flapper Valves", and two end caps
to fit the larger of your tubes.

Place the dowel in the smaller tube (1 inch I.D. Schedule 80


PVC Pipe is good, so is the heavier Electrical Conduit. Schedule
40 Steel Pipe is the best, but it's a Blue-Whale to hold when

finished). Fill the tube, around the dowel, with Steel Wool or
fiberglass (Fiberglass is the Quietest - But Always use SOME
steel wool at the gun's muzzle-end anyway - Helps prevent the
Fiberglass from blowing back into the action). Keep the Dowel as
close to the middle of the pipe as you can - This will be the
Bullet Path when you take the dowel out.

Now put one of the Toilet "Flapper Valves" at one end of the
larger (Inch and a Half Inner Diamater) tube. You'll notice the
'Flapper' is Hollow - With an opening at the bottom of it's Cone
Shaped 'Skirt' - This opening faces INTO the Tube - The Outside
Solid Wall of the Flaper faces the OUTSIDE End of the Tube. It's
not necessary, but it's 'good luck' to cut an "X" in the middle
of the Flapper's Solid Wall - This eliminates any danger of any
real pressure build-up.

Now take your other Flapper and cut a hole in it's Solid Wall the
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same size as your threaded Muzzle Brake. Take the dowel out of
your smaller tube and insert this tube into the larger one. Place
the other Flapper at this end where your gun muzzle will fit.

Put a 3/8ths inch hole in one Cap and put that cap on the FAR End
where the bullet will be leaving the supressor.

Drill and Tap a hole in the other cap to fit the threads you cut
into your muzzle brake. Place this cap on the opposite end of
your now completed Supressor.

Your rifle now sounds like a weirded-out sound effect! Nothing at


all like in the movies - Quieter as far as Muzzle Blast is
concerned, but it still hurts your ears right through your eyes!

I Cut the one I had down to about 9 inches and placed it on a


Ruger MK 1 22 Semi-Auto where it has remained to this day. This
works much better than trying to hush the Mach II velocities of
Centerfire Rifle Ammo.

If the demand is there, I'll make up an Addendum for the AK.


Since that Conversion can only be made by installing a Parts Kit,
though, I doubt it will ever be very necessary. But who knows.

Since SK's are running at about $100, even an AK owner may think
twice about investing in a Parts Kit since you can have a Full
Auto SK for the same (actually less) money!

Hope this was of some value.

Neil :rolleyes:
Here's a few sks sears required to convert to Full-auto.

Sear 1:
http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear1.jpg
Sear 2:
http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear2.jpg
Sear 3:
http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear3.jpg

lowjack February 19th, 2005, 08:57 PM


grandyOse. I am sure there would be a number of parties most interested in the milled sks autosear, if you could find a way to upload it in the future.

Well I'm sure not too many of you are interested in the milled sks autosear, because here it is and not a "cool, or a right on" from anyone.

Not that i crave anyones praise, but I just was hoping to help someone out with the 3 sear pics and the step-by-step in converting it in a way that wont blow your face off
when it fires out of battery.

tdog49 February 20th, 2005, 01:18 AM


Easy there big guy.......
It takes a lot to get a "Cool" from most of the people here. Not that they aren't interested or snobbish, it's just that "we" have seen a whole lot. The ftp is crammed w/full
auto conversions, manuals, blueprints etc... Not to mention the "brainy" stuff on how to make all sorts of chemical thingys. Makes my brain hurt just to look at it let alone read
it.

Now having said that, Welcome to the forum. I for one appreciate your willingness to share. Hang out, chill, enjoy the ride and learn all you can about all you can before it
disappears.

oh yeah,
And never assume someone hasn't benefitted from your contribution. Some of us will talk, but others (like me) would never tell anyone about actually having performed (or
thinking about performing) anything illegal........

lowjack February 20th, 2005, 10:41 PM


My bad..... I'm just trying to find anything worthy of contributing to the forum that isnt already been posted on or as you said,"In the FTP'.

With all the kick ass shit here on this forum it seems like I'm never gonna get a glance at that FTP site. Well maybe a glance, but as for having access to it.... it seems
impossible..

herminiano February 21st, 2005, 06:43 AM


People, check the new file in the ftp site called "SKS Adaptation to take AK47 mags - Little how to manual". I putted this file today. I am sure you find it usefull

see you

herminiano

Third_Rail February 22nd, 2005, 12:39 AM


Nice, I haven't seen anything this detailed before.

Good work!

lowjack February 22nd, 2005, 09:32 PM


Thanks, maybe I do have something worth uploading to the fTP site. I also have the sks to ak mag modification.pdf, but I just assumed it's already be there.
Is there a way I can browse the titles of the FTP files to see what I can contribute?

tdog49 February 22nd, 2005, 10:58 PM


yes,
anyone can log in and view the content of the index. It just wont let you download w/o a personal account

Silentnite February 23rd, 2005, 12:38 AM


Mega also has a thread over in FTP and P2P detailing what's in the FTP server.

lowjack February 24th, 2005, 01:18 AM


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I would love to have the ability to download several titles in this boards FTP server.
To add files to it I need something like bulletproof FTP, or a similar FTP program , right?

I know XP thinks it has an accaptable FTP function, but it dont. Not for Uploading or Downloading.

Silentnite February 24th, 2005, 01:31 AM


FireFox has a decent Extension to download called FireFTP do a goodle and you should be able to find it. Otherwise, yeah.. Bulletproof or CuteFTP will all work. I really like
CuteFTP.

XP has no useful functions :p

Back on topic though. :cool:

Illuminaughty April 7th, 2008, 04:44 PM


SKS modifications to AK mags not done by the factory are typically NOT reliable.

I'd suggest at very least purchasing an SKS-D or an SKS-M made from the factory and insuring it's reliability before tinkering it to full auto.

On another note, I cannot imagine wanting a regular SKS in full auto.

BeerWolf April 17th, 2008, 01:34 PM


I would wonder about the utility of a FA with a 10 round magazine. Adding a ak type mag or drum changes the picture considerably for the better, so I would start with an AK
mag fed type to begin with.

FWIW a friend once owned a factory built FN49 FA rifle with a 10 round clip fed magazine in 8mm.

It would make what sounded like one BIG bang, with the rounds stringing about 8 feet vertically at 50 yards. Impressive,turned a lot of heads at the local range, but basically
useless in combat.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Home Workshop Guns
For Defense & Resistance, Vol. II

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View Full Version : Home Workshop Guns For Defense & Resistance, Vol. II

skatastamoutra March 23rd, 2005, 10:23 AM


I a m looking for sche m a t i c s b u i l d i n g a s e m i a u to pistol from this book.
I have searched everywhere (and this forum ) and i can't find som ething similar, only full auto and single shot desig ns. Forgive
m e m y english is not that good and i have trouble searching.
Anyone got this book or or anything else that could help?

thanks.

skatastamoutra March 23rd, 2005, 10:23 AM


I a m looking for sche m a t i c s b u i l d i n g a s e m i a u to pistol from this book.
I have searched everywhere (and this forum ) and i can't find som ething similar, only full auto and single shot desig ns. Forgive
m e m y english is not that good and i have trouble searching.
Anyone got this book or or anything else that could help?

thanks.

skatastamoutra March 23rd, 2005, 10:23 AM


I a m looking for sche m a t i c s b u i l d i n g a s e m i a u to pistol from this book.
I have searched everywhere (and this forum ) and i can't find som ething similar, only full auto and single shot desig ns. Forgive
m e m y english is not that good and i have trouble searching.
Anyone got this book or or anything else that could help?

thanks.

MaHem87 August 27th, 2006, 01:45 AM


I believe what your lo oking for m a y b e b e f o u n d h e r e ( h t t p : / / n w 0 . i n f o / i n d e x . p h p ? p = e B o o k s % 2 0 a n d % 2 0 A u d i o % 2 0 B o o k s / ) i n
the Banned_books section. :rolleyes:

5_seven S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2006, 07:32 PM


Here's a website (http://www.thehom e g u n s m i t h .com/) that you might find educational

chevellessls6 S e p t e m b e r 2 6th, 2006, 01:31 AM


:) I believe what your looking for m aybe be found here (http://nw0.info/index.php?p=eBo o k s % 2 0 a n d % 2 0 A u d i o % 2 0 B o o k s / ) i n
the Banned_books section. :rolleyes:

That is an awesome link with lots of good info, for noob s without chem istry backgrounds a t least!

AFLINED October 31st, 2006, 10:09 AM


I believe what your lo oking for m a y b e b e f o u n d h e r e ( h t t p : / / n w 0 . i n f o / i n d e x . p h p ? p = e B o o k s % 2 0 a n d % 2 0 A u d i o % 2 0 B o o k s / ) i n
the Banned_books section. :rolleyes:
L o o k s t o m e t h e r e a r e s o m e p r e t t y g o o d b o o k s o n t h a t l i n k b u t I f a c e t h e p r o b l e m that when I try to open them all I get is
s o m e gibbisch that doesn't make sense to m e.

C o u l d y o u t e l l m e w h a t I n e e d t o h a v e i n s t a l l e d o r e w h a t l a n g u a g e I n e e d t o e n a b l e t o b e able of actually vieuwing these


books?

Chris The Great October 31st, 2006, 09:11 PM


Right click and "save as" will get you the files. I'm not sure why you get the weird gibberish with that site.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > full auto conversions

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FrankCastle August 1st, 2005, 04:29 PM


Anyone got any books (in digital form at) of how to convert rifles to full auto? I've seen the paper versions for sale all over, but
who wants the FBI watching them just for educa t i o n a l a n d e n t e r t a i n m e n t p u r p o s e s ?

Third_Rail A ugus t 4t h, 2005, 05: 16 PM


N o n e o f t h e b o o k s I ' v e r e a d d escribe easy ways to convert to FA safely. Do you have a m achine sh op?

FrankCastle A ugus t 4t h, 2005, 05: 53 PM


Nope, sure don't. :(

But I do have some basic powertools, like a drill press, stone griding wheel, and couple of dremel tools.... plus everthing you
would find a wood shop.

FrankCastle A ugus t 4t h, 2005, 05: 54 PM


W ait, why would that m atter? I only want to know for the sake of knowing. Not to actually do it.

bigbadgrinch A ugus t 9t h, 2005, 07: 58 PM


There are plenty of resources for this stuff, and I believe this ha s been covered e nough. www.fullautoglock.net used to sell a
kit for glock firearm s, until the owner was arrested. see http://www.clarin.com /diario/2004/10/01/policiales/g-05702.htm
use bablefish for tran slation. this inform ation is all over the place for all types of firearms, I sugge st you google.

Mr Science S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2007, 01:59 AM


Here is a torrent I just made on that very subject, without the bother of having to purchase them . :)
http://www.dem o n o i d . c o m / f i l e s / d e t a i l s / 1 3 4 4 0 0 5 /

Gimlet S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2007, 02:06 PM


Here is a torrent I just made on that very subject, without the bother of having to purchase them . :)
http://www.dem o n o i d . c o m / f i l e s / d e t a i l s / 1 3 4 4 0 0 5 /

Just downloaded it and it is a very interesting a nd informative set of m a n u a l s . T h a n k s .

Unfortunately the other torrents you link to on silencers etc. cannot be downloade d without a Dem onoid account as they are too
old, and accounts are presently closed.

Charles Owlen Picket S e p t e m b e r 1 2th, 2007, 03:53 AM


IF you pay close attention to a video (I believe on the FTP) that deals w/ this issue the concept of a "fixed firing pin" concep t is
e x p l o r e d . T h e b o l t o n a 1 0 / 2 2 ( j u s t f o r e x a m ple) is VER Y easily modified via a piece of music wire to return and continue to
process of th e "open bolt" auto concept.
T h i s i s t h e s a m e issue [conceptually] that plagued the owners of certain SKS rifles when the firing pin staye d o p e n f r o m lack of
a (firing pin) return spring & dirt or other material in the firing-pin hole.

T h e n e e d e d m odification would be very easy to accomplish. The problem aside from legality would be that the auto-firing
m echanism would be uncontrollable. The bolt-slap continual firin g would m aintain itself un til amm o was exhausted. But from a
m echanical stand-point it is VERY easy to produce this effect.

indymuaddib April 21st, 2008, 04:53 PM


m ost FA conversion are difficult to do because they require extensive mo dification of parts and ma nufacture of new parts.

the simplest conversion would be a M1 carbine to M2, requires the purchase of a hand full of non regulated parts and no
m odification to existing parts.

second easiest would be the AK but it requires that the triparm and bolt scallop be properly timed, difficult to perform without
knowledge of the systems design and function.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > The Home Gunsmith

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k_semler August 8th, 2005, 01:55 AM


There is a lot of very useful and very valuble information here. I don't know if you have seen this site before, but here it is:

http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/

Use this information at your own discression.

guerrero May 18th, 2006, 12:08 PM


Yes, Ive seen this very interesting page, too and I downloaded serveral information. But now, since the last week (or longer, I dont know), unfurtunatelly the access is
impossible. Does anybody know something abbout the reasons?

TheAdversary911 May 19th, 2006, 11:01 AM


Damn, it says they're offline due to police harrassment!

S510 May 19th, 2006, 01:16 PM


Does anybody know something abbout the reasons?

From the site;


"This site is currently off-line. The homegunsmith.com is still around but is temporarily suspended due to police harrassment."

:(

tdog49 May 21st, 2006, 02:25 AM


In the mean time.....

Head over here---www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi

Lots of guys building lots of different types of weapons.

Mortars, pistols, rifles, etc.....

TheAdversary911 May 21st, 2006, 02:47 AM


I like that site, but stay the hell out of the soapbox podium forum. They are a bunch of retards outside of gunsmithing.

tdog49 May 22nd, 2006, 02:13 AM


Does anybody know something abbout the reasons?

Well,
Let's see ......

1. He was convicted of illegally manufacturing a full auto firearm. And to be completely fair---- he did do it. He admits it and there is photographic proof of him constructing it
as well. All politics aside he is/was guilty. No further questions or arguments for (or from) either side.

2. Now that he is out of prison, he continues to publish information on constructing the same type of weapons and also now is into ammunition construction as well. Technically
this is not illegal since all he is doing is disseminating information. As of yet there is no evidence of any recent illicit happenings.

3. HOWEVER! and this is the point of contention (I am sure) If you are convicted of a crime and then try and teach others how to commit the same crime, you are going to
continue to attract the attention of the authorities.....for a long time......a very LONG time.

In short he has broken the 1st and possibly 2nd rule of any one who does not want this kind of attention.
1. Leave no witnesses.
2. Leave no trace.

Now having said that ( I know, you weren't expecting a lecture were you?)
I hope this is only a temporary setback... the world needs more people like P.A. Luty

S510 May 27th, 2006, 07:56 AM


Just to let you know, It's back up for me.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > R eactivating a Glock 17

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Super0071 January 31st, 2006, 01:53 PM


How would you go about reactivating a deactiva ted Glock 17?
Inform ation about the Glock 17 is the Glock 17 was dea ctivated before 1995. The deactivated firearm has, fully working gun
m ovements and is fully strippable it is also cap able of dry firing.

Now, say if I got my hands onto the co mplete uppers section of a Glock 17 brand new, this would include a barrel top slide
a n d a l l c o m p o n e n t s I t h a t slide and t h e Recoil Rod. And let s s a y I g o t m y h a n d s o n t o a complete receiver part replacem e n t
kit. (All parts in side the receiver).

Now I would have thought from that it would have been possible to reactivate the Glock 17. The on ly thing that I am concern e d
about is that, the barrel in the Glock 17 might not be re m o v a b l e i.e. welded in place which will m ake it difficult.

For am munition I would have though if I got some INER T a m m u nition I would be able to convert this into live amm unition is
this possible?

This post is of course theoretically speaking and I am n ot going to build the firearm a n d g o r o b a b a n k l o l : e e k :

nbk2000 January 31st, 2006, 08:43 PM


Before we can tell you how to reactivate the gun, we must first know how it was de activated.

I'm a s s u m ing the barrel has been plugged and welded into place, with the slide rails cut to weaken them ?

Also, have you searched for previous discussion threads here ab out reactivation of DEWAT ' s a n d p r o p g u n s ?

Super0071 February 1st, 2006, 1 0:48 AM


Im not sure exactly h ow the firearm was deactivated, as i have not actually purchaced the item yet. But i was worried if the
barrel was welded on that will cause problems. would it be easy to remove, keeping the base of wh ere the barrel is conected in
tact so m y orginal replacm ent glock barrel will fit perfectly. The slide can also be replaced as i have all orginal parts of a glock
17 except the reciver.

tomu February 2nd, 2006, 12:03 PM


Find out if the Glock can be disassem b l e d . I f i t c a n b e d i s a s s e m bled the barrel is not fixed to the receiver. Change the
deactivated barrel and the slide and the Glock will be alive again.

If it can't be diassembled, try to get your hands on a LEP-Glock (it's a real Glock m odified to an air gun, I forget the english
Brandname for this type of gu n). with this type of modification only the b arrel and the slide is mod ified. Reactivating see
above.

Illuminaughty April 7th, 2008, 04:42 PM


Deactivated Glock cannot be reactivate d u n l e s s y o u h a v e a g o o d w a y o f f u s i n g s m all, precision metal parts to the polym er
fram e.

Good luck with that.

Also, the only "deactivated" glocks I've seen are cutawa ys. W ould be interested to know about other m ethods of deactivation,
and used by whom.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Plans of Sardauker
Press

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guerrero March 8th, 2006, 12:11 PM


Since a quite long tim e I try to get plans of "Sardauker Press" referring to the construction of concealable weapons like
"can egun", "buckler", "boltgun" and "p engun". Does anywhoe know where can I find theese plans. I refer to com p l e t e p l a n s
with dim ensions in printed or digital form.

Third_Rail March 15th, 2006, 01:23 PM


I, to o, am quite interested in the plans. I spent a long while searching, whether to buy or download I didn't care. I couldn't find
anything eve n resembling plans; I think they m ay be lost for go od.

tomu March 15th, 2006, 05:14 PM


Hi there,

have a look at:

http://rapidshare.de/files/155 98534/Sarpen.zip.htm l

It's a ZIP-File of the Sardaukar Pengun-Plans.

Third_Rail March 17th, 2006, 04:12 PM


Thank you.

One down, m any to g o.

tomu March 18th, 2006, 12:25 PM


http://rapidshare.de/files/158 19519/sarzapper.zip.htm l

It's the Sardaukar Zapper, a modified Zippo lig hter to fire .22 short.

bipolar March 19th, 2006, 12:32 AM


W O W , thanks tom u . I s e a r c h e d o u t t h o s e p l a n s l o n g a g o a n d g a v e u p .

I even bought that zips pens and pipes book to look at the scaled down diagrams of each of the plans, which is useless after
s e e i n g t h e s e especiallty.

Y o u d o n ' t h a p p e n t o h a v e t h e b e l t b u c k l e g u n o r t h e b o lt gun would you?

tomu March 20th, 2006, 02:04 PM


Your Download-Link: http://rapidshare.de/files/15993421/sarbuckler.zip.htm l

There are the plans for the Buckler Belt Buckel Gun. The Plans for the Bo lt Gun will follow soon.

charger March 20th, 2006, 07:47 PM


I just had a look at the Buckler - W O W ! I just wanted to thank you for your efforts. Looking forward to the next installm ent.
Not trying to sound greedy, but do you b y a n y c h a n c e h a v e t h e c a n e g u n p l a n s ?

tomu March 23rd, 2006, 04:58 PM


Your Download-Link: http://rapidshare.de/files/16251798/sarbolt.zip.htm l
Your Download-Link: http://rapidshare.de/files/16251158/sarcane.zip.htm l

The next two plans are ready for downloading.

charger March 24th, 2006, 08:11 AM


Thanks for the latest installm ent of Sa rdauker Press.

Third_Rail March 24th, 2006, 06:28 PM


Fantastic! These are prints I've been looking to get for ages.

Ropik March 25th, 2006, 07:29 AM


Good work, tom u. Thank you very m uch. I was interested in these plans since reading Zips, pipes and pens. You don't have
Fogger plans, do you?
Once again, thanks.

Third_Rail March 26th, 2006, 12:38 AM


I just cleaned up the cane gun pictures, m a d e a P D F a n d u p l o a d e d i t t o t h e F T P a s " S a r d a u k a r C a n e G u n . p df".
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
It's all set for printing out in 1 1x17, for those of you who are interested, like m yself.

I'll be doing the rest tomorrow, most likely.

Panzerfaust29a July 1st, 2006, 12:22 PM


D o e s a n y o n e h a v e t h e " R o c k e r " A R - 7 p l a n s f r o m Sardaukar Press? I have been looking for them for a while. Also if anyone is
interested in selling the original Sardaukar Press "Rocker" AR-7 plans or knows where I can purchased them let m e know.

Thanks.

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Brocock revolver conversion to live firing

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View Full Version : Brocock revolver conversion to live firing

tomu April 5th, 2006, 12:37 PM


It is easily possible to fire .22 long rifle cartridges with a Brocock revolver of this caliber. I know of at least three calibres .177 (4,5 mm) .22 (5,5 mm) and ,25 (6,35 mm sometimes designated as 6,5 mm) in
which Brocock revolvers are available, obviously it's only possible with the .22 (5,5 mm) to fire real .22 lr cartridges with the help of a special adapter cartridge.

This adapter consists of a round steel body which is turned to the outer shape and dimensions of the Brocock air cartridge. It is much easier to use a thickwalled tube with a 5 mm or 5,5 mm bore and turn it to the proper
outside dimensions and after that drill and ream the inside holes. If a metal lathe is not available a tube can be dressed to the proper shape if chucked in a electrical drill and by using a file (lots of skill is required by that way an
it s lots of work).

The adapter is drilled and reamed all way through the middle with a hole of the size of the .22 lr cartridge, if a chamber reamer (Brownells) is availble great, if not a suitable drill and a normal reamer will suffice.
The second larger hole is drilled and reamed only partly through, this hole holds the hammer.

The hammer is a piece of small round steel or brass stock with a small firing pin, which is fixed off-center to hit the .22 lr cartridge rim. There two ways to make the hammer. First way would be to drill a small hole off-center
in the hammer face and solder/epoxy a short piece of 1 1,5 mm diameter piano wire in it, it should protrude not more than 1,5 mm and the striker face should be slightly rounded. The next ways is to cut a slot at the side of the
hammer and solder/epoxy in a flat piece of spring steel, see diagrams

Dimensions of the .22 long rifle cartridge and chamber might come in handy for making the adapter. The first number is the maximum dimension of the cartridge, the second number in brackets is the minimum
dimension of the chamber, all dimensions are in millimeters (mm).

Lenght of the shell body (L3): 15,57 (16,33), Thickness of cartridge rim (R): 1,09 (1,09),
Diameter of cartridge base (R1): 7,06 (7,32), Diameter of shell body at the base (P1): 5,74 (5,76), Diameter of the shell body at the cartridge throat (H2): 5,72 (5,72).

Different types of adapters can be made. One as described above for firing a .22 lr cartridge, thos adapter can also be used to load .22 blanks with separate bullets if access to .22 long rifle cartridges is regulated
by gun laws.An adapter can be made which could use blank firing center firing cartridges and be loaded with a separate bullet also adapters can be made to load a air gun pellet ( BB or Diabolo) and use a center fire
primer ( shotgun shell primer or any other type of Boxer primer) for propulsion (see diagrams).

Proper tools, especially drills and reamers can be bought at any tools shop which supplies metal working shops. Drills and reamers are available at 0,1 mm steppings. A very good source for gun smithing tools,
like chamber reamers and properly sized drills, is Brownells (www.brownells.com/).

TreverSlyFox April 6th, 2006, 09:43 AM


Interesting, never heard of the Brocock Cartrage System so I did a little research on it. From the looks of the system your "Conversion" looks quite possible. Off the top of my head I can only think of two or three
"possible" problems with it.

1. Chamber Pressure: Your "conversion" cartrages had better be pretty strong of quality steel. A "Target" .22LR, 40gr bullet at 1080 fps developes 26,500 psi chamber pressure and a "Full Blown" .22LR 38gr bullet
Super/Hyper Velocity up to 1750 fps has to be pushing at least 30,000 psi chamber pressure. I'm not sure what the Maximum SAMMI listed chamber pressure for a .22LR is.

2. Barrrel throat wear: All pistol barrels have a "Forcing Cone" at the start of the barrel that A. Starts the bullet into the rifeling and B. Compensates for slightly with Out-of-Time cylinders (the cylinder chambers
don't exactly line up with the bore). The barrel is made for a .22 cal soft lead pellet expelled at about 410 fps by a "cold" gas. A regular .22LR cartrage bullet is expelled by a "Very Hot" gas at 3-4 times the velocity
that the pistols barrel isn't made to take and may well fail in a very short time. It will depend on the steel used by the manufacture of the barrel.

3. Recoil Shock: The frame of the pistol could well be cheap "Pot" metal as a CO2 pellet at 410fps isn't going to produce much recoil. A .22LR may produce a lot more recoil shock to the frame than it's made to
withstand. Again it comes down to what steel the maufacturer used to make the frame from.

I think from a safety stand point #1 is your biggest problem to overcome. #2 is much less of a problem other than accuracy over a period of time though that time could be very short. I think #3 falls somewhere in
between #1 and #2 but "may" be avoided by just making sure you buy a good quality pistol in the first place to make the conversion with.

tomu April 6th, 2006, 12:44 PM


Brocock and other Air cartridge type guns are quite popular in Europe, in the UK you will need a licence for them nowadays, but in Germany they can be bought by anyone over 18 years old.

There are two types of this guns, first are real guns converted to Brocock Air Cartridge System and ones which are originaly produced for this Brocock system. In Germany they are called LEP (Luft Energie
Patrone). There are also pistols available, but this conversion only works with revolvers because the cartridge shells of the pistol ammo is to small/short to take the .22 lr cartridge and the special striker/
hammer. Also the firing pin of Brocock Pistols is flatened so it will not fire a primer or a blank cartridge.

The conversion is certainly not only feasible ,it works. Did it, tested it with several types of Brocock revolvers. With this type of adapter it certainly does not make sense to go to a shooting competition, but for
self defence it's ok.

To #1: I'm european so I use the metric system, sorry. A .22 lr cartridge develops a maximum pressure (CIP) of 1800 bar which translates to 180 Newton per square millimeter. Even the softest steel has a
tensile strenght of about 330 - 380 N/mm2 and even the more interesting yield strenght for dynamic stresses is over 220 N/mm2. No pressure problem at all with .22 long rifle ammo. So, I would not advice to use
high velocity ammo, with short barrled revolvers it wouldn't make sense anyway.

The steel adapter takes all the pressure and distributes it over it's large outside area to the cylinder walls, it's just a few Newtons. The adapter could even be fired without being in the cylinder from a pressure point
of view.

to #2: The barrel liners used in Brocock revolvers are genuine .22 barrel liners made of steel and like in all revolvers (and in any other gun as well) the barrel has a forcing cone.

to #3: What recoil? Have you ever shot a .22 lr? The recoil of a .22 lr is so weak, even plastic can stand it. Many commercial .22 lr guns also have a frame of what you call "pot-metal", I know of at least one .38
Special revolver which also has a die cast zinc alloy frame and it doesn't cause it any problems.

The high velocity hot powder gases can and will cause errossion of the frame around and above where the barrel is fixed to it, but with a .22 lr it's not a real problem.

BTW. I made the first prototype of the adapter out of brass because I had the brass round stock at hand and it worked.

bobo April 6th, 2006, 03:31 PM


One question about .22 caliber though. For my pistol I have different ammo than for my rifle, both are cheapass .22. The gundealer said it was NOT a good idea to use rifle ammo in pistol and vice versa, because
the barrel would not withstand it or something. I assume this is what you mean to say about high velocity ammo?

By the way, this conversion has been known for some time by the police, have the brockocks remained the same in the mean time?

Jacks Complete April 6th, 2006, 05:05 PM


These pistols are a red herring in the UK. After a few were found to have been converted, they were all confiscated, or put on Section 1 or 5, and are now treated the same as a real pistol. You might as well get
yourself a Glock 9mm or a Buckmark .22, as the 5 year minimum prison sentence is the same for having a Brocock air pistol, or having an UZI. :-(

tomu April 6th, 2006, 08:22 PM


To BoBo: Automatic Pistols can be picky about the type of ammo you fire, high velocity ammo shouldn't be fired out of them. It will but more stress on the gun and the gun is likely to jam because of feeding
problems.

It's not about the pressure, the maximum pressure of a cartridge is regulated by SAAMI in the USA and by CIP in most other countries, and a gun must be constructed so it will withstand the maximum pressure
of the calibre it is made for.

It's a question of bullet weight and velocity or to make it short it's