Conversations with Classic Film Stars

James Bawden, Ron Miller

Published by The University Press of Kentucky

Bawden, J. & Miller, R..

Conversations with Classic Film Stars: Interviews from Hollywood's Golden Era.
Lexington: The University Press of Kentucky, 2016.
Project MUSE., https://muse.jhu.edu/.

For additional information about this book

https://muse.jhu.edu/book/44795

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 Cary Grant
Interview by James Bawden

If you ask movie fans to draw up a list of legendary leading men in the his-
tory of the movies, you can be sure Cary Grants name will be right near
the top of everyones list. Though he didnt collect a lot of awards in his
thirty-four years in movieshis only Academy Award was a 1969 spe-
cial Oscar for his unique mastery of the art of screen actingGrant was
the quintessential Hollywood leading man, a handsome and debonair fel-
low who was as impressive in action roles as he was in romantic love sto-
ries, as convincing in serious dramatic parts as he was in flat-out comedy
roles. And his appeal to female moviegoers seemed eternalhe was still in
demand to play romantic leads when he made his last film at the age of
sixty-two.
Cary Grant had come a long way from his days as a British-born acro-
bat named Archie Leach. He had scaled the heights of stardom in America
but was known all over the world. He had evolved into an international
symbol of style and grace.

Setting the Scene

In the last twenty years of his life, Grant seldom gave interviews, and he
never got around to writing an autobiography. Most reporters didnt even
bother to ask for a chance to talk with him since the odds were so heavy
against him ever saying yes.
Yet on August 8, 1980, at a time when I was writing about television
for the Hamilton (Ont.) Spectator, I received a surprising telephone call at
my apartment from a publicist for the Faberg perfume company, asking if
I would join Mr. Grant for high tea at 2 p.m. sharp. I knew Grant was now
a spokesman for Faberg. He was in Toronto for the grand opening of the
companys new Canadian plant and had patiently answered all questions

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Cary Grant. James Bawden collection.

the day before at a mass press conference. It didnt seem likely hed want to
do an interview, too. Well, he does and you can ask him why, the publi-
cist said as she rang off.
And so at noon I was barreling down the Queen Elizabeth highway
toward Toronto with photographer Bob Chambers. We lost our way but
luckily got there just in time. No sooner had we assembled our gear in the

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plush Faberg boardroom than Grant arrived. Hello, James, he said, Im

Cary Grant.
Y-y-yes, you are, I answered hesitantly as a gigantic silver tea tray
was wheeled in with a rich assortment of tea cakes, buns, tarts, pies, and
enough plates and saucers for an assembly of twenty or so. I was awed at
meeting one of the biggest-ever Hollywood starsand he really looked
the part in his stylish black Armani suit and a handsome blue tie, which he
said was knotted in the fashion taught him by the Duke of Windsor!
The only other person present was his publicist, Barbara.

The Interview
Bawden: I cant believe you wanted to talk to the Hamilton Spectator
separately.
Grant: Well, I do. I like to return favors. In 1923, when I was a teen-
ager appearing in vaudeville with Bob Penders acrobats, I passed through
Hamilton on the vaudeville circuit. And I got my first-ever review when
the Spectator said, Archie Leach is ever so agile. And I came back to Ham-
ilton with Pender every season through the early twenties. Wed do a week
in Toronto, then a split week of Hamilton and London [Ontario], then on
to Detroit. I was five years on that circuit. It got me used to crowds and
appearing in public. It made me. And I remember my first-ever review
came out the week before Canadian Thanksgiving, which was in October,
I believe.
Bawden: Seeing the way people behave around you, is it still fun being
Cary Grant?
Grant: I dont like to disappoint people. Because hes a completely
made-up character and Im playing a part. Its a part Ive been playing a
long time, but no way am I really Cary Grant. A friend told me once, I
always wanted to be Cary Grant. And I said, So did I. In my minds eye,
Im just a vaudevillian named Archie Leach. When somebody yells Archie
on the street Ill look up. I dont look up if somebody calls Cary. So I
think Cary Grant has done wonders for my life and I always want to give
him his due.
Bawden: But you dont always dress like this?
Grant: At home its jeans or slacks. Once, when my daughter was lit-
tle, I had to go to the chemists late at night for a prescription to be filled. It
was a rush and I was wearing jeans and the woman cashier looked at me

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askance and said, Oh, Mr. Granthow could you? I got her message. Id
disappointed her and I guess I apologized.
Bawden: Do you remember your reply when Encyclopaedia Britan-
nica telegraphed you for information?
Grant: The telegram read, How old Cary Grant? And I telegraphed
back, Old Cary Grant fine. How you? My last batch of movies, I was
being reviewed for how old I looked instead of how good or bad the movie
was.
Bawden: I understand you gave William Holden terse information
when he was starting in movies.
Grant: Bill was twenty-two and we were introduced on the set of
Only Angels Have Wings [1939]. He was visiting and had just signed with
Columbia. And he asked for career [advice], so I told him, Get a good
tan. Hes been thanking me ever since.
Bawden: Youre as famous for the movies you didnt make as for the
movies you made.
Grant: Strangest-ever request came from old C. B. DeMille, who
asked me if I wanted to test for Samson in Samson and Delilah [1949]. And
I said, Only if I could wear my dinner jacket. Billy Wilder was serious
when he asked me to do Sabrina [1954], and I turned him down. Id heard
he didnt like actors very much and Id already worked with enough of
those kind of directors to last a lifetime. Humphrey Bogart did the picture
and he looks very unhappy all the way through.
I dithered about playing Norman Maine in A Star Is Born [1954]. It
was a part I think I could have done. But Freddie March had aced the part
in the original [1937] version, and Judy Garland had the key part and she
seemed difficult to work with and I couldnt make up my mind. Jimmy
Mason did a grand job and said how hard a chore it was waiting day after
day to see if Judy would appear.
Its true I turned down Bridge on the River Kwai [1957] for The Pride
and the Passion [1957]. I did it to work with Marlon Brando and then he
quit just before we started and was replaced by Frank Sinatra. I think I
could have done Kwai, although not perhaps quite as brilliantly as Alec
Guinness.
Bawden: You also turned down My Fair Lady [1964].
Grant: It was Rex Harrisons part. Hed done it on Broadway. And I
was sorely tempted. Jack Warner offered me $1 million plus a piece of the
action. And the costars were to be Audrey Hepburn and Jimmy Cagney.

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When Jimmy refused to come out of retirement, I had my reason for not
signing. I knew there would be a backlash, and Audrey felt it [because she
took the part Julie Andrews had played opposite Harrison on Broadway.]
I told Jack, Not only will I not do it, but if you dont use Rex I even wont
go to see it.
Bawden: What was your life like in vaudeville?
Grant: As tough as anything. Wed work up to six performances a day
and go on the all-night train to the next destination. Had to sleep in the
coach car. Three or four of us would bunk in a single room. Meals were
cans of beans heated on radiators. Youd wash clothes in the bathtub. I was
a stilt walker. That was my specialty. But I also performed in comedy skits.
When the troupe returned to England, I decided to stay [behind]. There
was more promise of jobs in the U.S. and Canada.
Bawden: It was a lonely life?
Grant: On the night trains, Id look into the windows of the houses
along the way and see people living ordinary lives. That was my goal. To
live in my own home.
Bawden: How did you support yourself later on?
Grant: I painted and sold neckties with a young chap who became
the designer Orry Kelly. I was a bogus mind reader in another vaudeville
act. All the time I was auditioning for legitimate plays and finally I was
scouted and signed by Arthur Hammerstein for Oscar Hammerstein IIs
operetta Golden Dawn [1937]. It opened on Broadway the same night as
another musical, a little something called Show Boat. I made friends with
George Brent, who was a chorus boy in it.
And then I had another singing part in Boom Boom [1929], which
starred a lovely newcomerJeanette MacDonald. We both got Paramount
screen tests. She was hired right away and I was told, Your neck is too
thick. It ruined my image of myself for a long time.
Bawden: You wanted to be a Broadway star at the time?
Grant: Thats it. I sang operetta in St. Louis after that and then had a
drama part in a play starring Fay Wray called Nikki [1931]. My characters
name was Cary Lockwood. But I was still billed as Archie Leach.
Bawden: Why did you then go to L.A.?
Grant: Fay suggested it. Broadway was dead because of the Depres-
sion. At first the only work I could get was helping young actresses get
through their screen tests. Then the director Marion Gering saw meor
rather the back of my headand gave me another test. Paramount reluc-

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tantly signed me to a five-year deal, but I had a boardroom meeting about

my name. I took Cary from the play Id been in and the studio took
Grant after the U.S. president. Right then the rage was for short names:
George Brent, Bette Davis. A Richard Barthelmess was the kind of name to
be avoided.
Bawden: How did you get your first break?
Grant: The brass quickly put me into This Is the Night [1932] with
Roland Young and gave me a pay raise to $450 a week. I watched the initial
rushes and sank in fear. My face was as white as a ghost. All the actors wore
tons of thick makeup and even had lipstick. I was petrified. I was twenty-
eight and didnt know who I was. So I pretended to be Nol Coward for
years after.
Bawden: Do you recognize yourself watching these movies today?
Grant: Not at all. I was desperate to succeed. But I couldnt act at all.
But the Paramount publicity machine blasted into high gear. I got all the
parts Gary Cooper turned down. I even was in a Coop picture called The
Devil and the Deep [1932]. I have a few lines at a bar.
Bawden: You got top billing in Hot Saturday [1932], which I just saw,
but you had only a few scenes.
Grant: The leading lady was Nancy Carroll, but she was fading fast.
So they promoted me to billing above her, which was embarrassing. A
feisty Irish girl, she always brawled with management. But everybody
brawled with management. Clara Bow walked out around that time. Fred-
ric March left as soon as he could and so did Cooper. The stance of the
studio was to keep one working at any cost. Id get a new script and if I
balked Id instantly be on suspension, which meant I wasnt being paid
anything.
Bawden: But Mae West says she spotted you on the back lot and gave
you your first big break.
Grant: She Done Him Wrong [1933] was my eighth picture. And the
exposure was tremendous. When I first met her, I was astonished how tiny
she was, barely five feet. And not at all svelte. She had a flabby belly which
always wiggled when she walked. She talked badly. Not dirty. I mean when
she was called to set shed yell, I aint ready! That kind of bad. She was
actually a prude. Innuendo was her game and not explicitness.
Bawden: She stacked her movies with handsome young men.
Grant: Right. I was window dressing. Gilbert Roland was in it and
she ogled him all the time. But everyone saw it. The movie was my first

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smash and later that year I made a second film with her [1933s Im No
Angel], which I think is better. But when strict censorship came in, her day
was over. What she said needed that touch of suggestiveness.
Bawden: Did you have any choice over films?
Grant: No. Paramount was determined to build me up as a rather
serious young man. Who was I to object? Only a few of those movies are
watchable. In Blonde Venus [1932] I was the cad after Marlene Dietrich.
The director, Josef von Sternberg, yelled at her all the time. I was a male
mannequin. Thirty-Day Princess [1934] starred Sylvia Sidney and is quite
lovely. The same idea was used in Roman Holiday [1953], you know. But
Born to Be Bad [1934], which I made on loan to Fox, was sheer awfulness.
I was a pig farmer and Loretta Young a hard-boiled single mother. Jean
Harlow just refused to do it. None of these could be called a Cary Grant
film.
Wings in the Dark [1935] was a challenge because I was a blind flyer,
but it was a Myrna Loy vehicle most of all. Friends told me that Last Out-
post [1935] wasnt that bad, but it was. Paramount took all the outtakes
from Lives of a Bengal Lancer [1935] and used these for the action
sequences.
Bawden: Then you made the film that changed your life.
Grant: It was Sylvia Scarlett [1935] and RKO bought my rights for
seven weeks. [Director] George Cukor said he saw something behind my
smoothness. I had a Cockney accent and was a real character, not a lounge
lizard at all. I loved the part and George helped me unwind. It was a Kate
Hepburn vehicle, but I got noticed. I wasnt just a nice young man with
good teeth any longer.
Bawden: So you gave your notice?
Grant: I turned down $1 million for a contract renewal from Para-
mount. I looked around and made deals with Columbia and RKO, which
were smaller studios. I figured I could squeeze one picture out of each stu-
dio every year and be able to pick and choose my roles. I was one of the
very first to freelance. Others saw what I was doing and tried to copy it.
Bawden: It seems only a few directors were able to create the Cary
Grant character for you.
Grant: Right. George Cukor with Sylvia Scarlett, Holiday [1938], and
The Philadelphia Story [1940]. Then Leo McCarey with The Awful Truth
[1937] and My Favorite Wife [1940]. Then Howard Hawks with Bringing
Up Baby [1939], Only Angels Have Wings, and His Girl Friday [1940]. Then

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Cary Grant with Katharine Hepburn in The Philadelphia Story (1940). Courtesy
of MGM and TV station KTVU of Oakland, CA.

George Stevens with Gunga Din [1939] and Talk of the Town [1942]. I
signed for Gunga Din because Hawks was going to direct it and then RKO
fired him after Baby lost money. George Stevens was even slower and it
wound up costing over $2 millionand lost money the first time out. And
five years after leaving Paramount I was up to $200,000 a picture.
Bawden: I felt you should have killed Joan Fontaine in Suspicion
[1941]. She was such a complaining person.
Grant: That was the intention. We shot the whole picture that way.
Then the RKO president saw the rough cut and came running onto the
soundstage claiming, You cant have Cary Grant as a killer! So he forced
Hitch [director Alfred Hitchcock] to film an alternate ending. Originally, I
post the letter shes written to her parents after killing her. And she tells
them her suspicions, so I dont get off. But Joan won the Oscar anyway,
although she never thanked me for helping her.
Bawden: Favorite leading ladies?
Grant: Four with Hepburn, but only the last, The Philadelphia Story,
was successful at all. A real character. Shell try anything. I taught her acro-

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batics and she even does a turn in Holiday. She was always standing on my
shoulders and heaving into a rolling fall. In Bringing Up Baby, we had the
sweetest leopard to work with, very adorable, always purring when petted.
When they substituted the nasty leopard, Kate got scratched up. So in the
scene when shes dragging the leopard into the police station, they double-
printed the leopard in later. Look closely and youll see the strands of rope
dont match.
In the final scene, we had one chance at doing it on top of the dinosaur
skeleton or somebody could get hurt. I trained Kate myself. She was fear-
less. There was no mattress on the floor. I had her let me grab her, not by
her hands because her arms would pop out of the sockets. I grabbed her by
her wrists and were up there tossing back and forth as the skeleton crashes.
Scariest thing Id ever done, but Kate said it was wonderful and talked
about deserting acting for acrobatics!
I tried to get out of Philadelphia Story because my part was small. So
in the movie version Hepburn doesnt have a brother. I got all those lines.
But it still didnt flow. On the last day of shooting, Cukor came up with
the visual gag that opens the movie: Dexter is moving out and she comes
behind him and breaks all his golf clubs over her knee. Then I push her
violently backwards, using her face to push her away. Of course, there
was a mattress out of camera range, but most big stars would have hol-
lered. On the second take Kate merely said, Push harder, if you like.
Of the four starsHepburn, Jimmy Stewart, Ruth Hussey all got
Oscar nominations and Jimmy won. How do you think that made me feel?
Bawden: How about Jean Arthur?
Grant: We just never got along. In Only Angels Have Wings, she gave
Hawks a real rough ride. Resisted all directing hints, claimed I was mug-
ging. In Talk of the Town, it was more of the same, including hysterics
when I thought she was overdoing it in one big scene. When [director
Frank] Capra offered us A Woman of Distinction [in 1950], Jean said,
With anybody but Cary. She only made one more movie [Shane, 1953]
and then it just got too much for her. [Capra never made the film, but it
was made by another director without Grant or Jean Arthur.]
Bawden: Irene Dunne?
Grant: Three pictures. Wish wed done ten more. In Penny Serenade
[1941], that was the last time I took second billing. For the first and only
time I cried on camera and when Irene saw it in the morning rushes next
day she said, Thats your Oscar. Well, I did get my first nomination.

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Cary Grant and Ingrid Bergman in Alfred Hitchcocks Notorious (1946). Cour-
tesy of Selznick International and Viacom TV.

On The Awful Truth we just clicked. Shed been a weepie star and com-
edy was strange to her. Shed do a bit and whisper to me, Funny? She was
the sweetest smelling of my leading ladies and such a lady. If one of the
crew cussed, shed blush. She claims she was out shopping at Bullocks for
a present for her husband and the saleslady said, I dont think Mr. Grant
would like that. In the minds of the public, we were married. Reunions
became impossible because we both liked first billing. Its ladies first in
rowboats but not in movies, Im afraid. But I still see her at the races and
she still smells wonderful, although its not Faberg.
Bawden: Carole Lombard?
Grant: Three pictures with her and nary a comedy. I just think thats
strange. We were always meaning to reunite and then she was gone from
our midst. Claudette Colbert was also at Paramount but I wasnt consid-
ered big enough to be paired with her. Shes the one who got away.
Bawden: Marilyn Monroe?
Grant: Hawks says its wonderful we knew and worked with Marilyn

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Cary Grant with Deborah Kerr in An Affair to Remember (1957). Courtesy of

20th Century-Fox.

before she got difficult. Because she was so winning and adorable in Mon-
key Business [1952]. When I drink that youth serum and Im acting like a
teenager, Marilyn really got into it. Im diving off the high board and shes
giggling and waving me on. Years later she asked me to costar in some-
thing called The Billionaire. It was a comedy and she said her husband
Arthur Miller was reworking it. Arthur Miller a comedy writer? I ran away
and so did Greg Peck, and the completed film, Lets Make Love [1960],
showed shed become all blurry and distant. It was sad.
Bawden: You retired for several years.
Grant: In the early fifties my films were dull: Crisis [1950], People
Will Talk [1951], Dream Wife [1953]. I just gave up for awhile. Nobody
wanted me. It was all Method actors. And I dont look right in a torn
T-shirt. They asked that wonderful actor Basil Rathbone why he wasnt
working anymore and he said, I blame it all on that Marlon Brando. And
thats the way I felt, too. Then Hitch phones and offers me To Catch a Thief
[1955] with Grace Kelly and things started looking up.

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Bawden: You had your biggest-ever hit with An Affair to Remember

[1957].
Grant: It still makes money. I know because I have a percentage and
the checks keep arriving every six months.
The only time I played myself was in None but the Lonely Heart [1944],
and nobody wanted to see the real me. So I put Archie Leach away and
went back to being Cary Grant.
Bawden: With Hitchcock, you made my favorite Cary Grant movie,
North by Northwest [1959].
Grant: The writer, Ernie Lehman, did it as a tribute to all the Hitch
films. There was the mysterious blonde. After Grace [Kelly] retired, we got
Eva Marie Saint, who is perfect. Theres the chase, the McGuffin, the suave
stranger played by James Mason. Hitch shot all the Mt. Rushmore close-
ups in a gigantic MGM soundstage. He has such a sense of humor. There
we were dangling up there and he calls a tea break! And he wanted me to
cower inside Lincolns nose and then sneeze. The crop-dusting scene took
only a day to complete because it was so meticulously planned. The pilot
had radio contact with Hitch and it went so smoothly. It was my most
physical scene since Gunga Din.
My mother in that movie was Jessie Royce Landis. She was Graces
mother in To Catch a Thief. She was a year older than me. When somebody
later asked her why she no longer made movies, she said, I guess Cary
Grant no longer needs a mother.
Bawden: You once said you wanted total control over your pictures.
Grant: And I got it when I started my own company with Stanley
Donen. All these films made big profits and still bring in money today. On
Indiscreet [1958], we got Ingrid Bergman after her Oscar win. It was her
first-ever comedy and she just glows. The story is about two mature people
falling in love, nothing more. But by the time of Charade [1963], I felt at
fifty-nine I was too old to chase the girl any longer. So Stanley fixed the
script and Audrey Hepburn chases me. Ingrid saw it and said Audrey was
too old for me. She suggested Jane Fonda would be my next costar, but that
never happened.
Bawden: Do you consider yourself retired these days?
Grant: Well, its true I dont act anymore. Havent since Walk, Dont
Run [1966]. For years afterward I kept offices at Universal but nothing
interested me. Then I quietly disbanded the team and went home. Im on
the board of directors of Faberg and MGM. I have a company that looks

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after the movies I own. I do exercise every day, but its mild stretching. I
gave up stilt walking a long time ago. No nicotine and no caffeine keep me
feeling young. In the afternoon, if Im home, Ill slip out to the back patio
to catch the last rays of sunshine in the afternoon. Tan from a bottle looks
awful.
People keep telling me Ive had such an interesting time of it. But I
remember all those stomach disturbances that afflicted me every time I
started a new picture. I was an idiot until I was forty, all wrapped up in my
own ego. I loosened up somewhat when I took LSD under controlled con-
ditions. I do try to keep in contact with the people I worked with.
And, speaking as Archie Leach, Im not ungrateful for all that being
Cary Grant has done for me.

Afterword
Cary Grant was married five times: to actress Virginia Cherrill, Charlie
Chaplins leading lady in City Lights, from 1934 to 1936; to heiress Barbara
Hutton from 1943 to 1945; to actress Betsy Drake from 1949 to 1962; to
actress Dyan Cannon, the mother of his only child, daughter Jennifer,
from 1965 to 1968; and to publicist Barbara Harris from 1981 until his
death.
Grant died in Davenport, Iowa, on November 29, 1986, aged eighty-
two, as he was preparing another appearance in the one-man show An
Evening with Cary Grant.

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