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submitted 6 days ago * by tiredlajna
< this post was submitted on 04 May 2017
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[] ReasonOnFaith 1 point 2 days ago

Submit a new text post
I think you may have replied to the wrong
comment. My comment focused on the
freespeech_ahmadiyya
veracity of beliefs. It did not discuss, mention
or berate the Ahmadiyya Muslim Khalifa. Use subreddit style

We can respect people while disagreeing with unsubscribe +shortcut+dashboard

their viewpoints, and we can do it with love 29 readers
and kindness. ~1 user here now
Show my flair on this subreddit. It looks like:
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created by ahmadiyya_2886 a community for 3 years

[] Loverofpeace95 [+1] 2 points 2 days ago

My apologies, it seems like I have. Of MODERATORS message the moderators

course we have different viewpoints. ahmadiyya_2886
Couldn't agree more, I'll post it on the about moderation team
main part. Jazakallah for the heads up
account activity
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[] ReasonOnFaith 1 point 2 days ago

No worries. Reddit can be a bit of a confusing interface when starting out, as I

have found.
One of the things I cherish about Ahmadiyyat is that even though I have left, I
can almost always have productive and civil conversations with those who are
still practicing and devout.
We can have spirited discussion about ideas, and still maintain good relations
(family, friendships) with one another.
On a side note, when I was about your age, I too had a fervor for Ahmadiyyat. I
do think there are a lot of positive benefits to community, as Ahmadiyyat has it
structured (and of course, several things I don't agree with). One thing I'd
encourage you to do, if you've not already explored it, is whether what we have
been taught since childhood, really adds up.
I came to the conclusion that it does not. And as much as I miss the community
aspect of Ahmadiyyat, following my conscience is of paramount importance.

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ReasonOnFaith comments on message from a fed up ahmadi girl https://www.reddit.com/r/freespeech_ahmadiyya/comments/69...

Ironically, this prioritization of truth over family and worldly comforts was
something instilled in me as a child from Ahmadiyyat.
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[] Loverofpeace95 [+1] 1 point 1 day ago

Personally I have seen many of the allegations against ahmadiyyat and

Islam. I've done extensive research on it for a couple of years now. But
educated ahamdis always come back with a more logical argument, every
single time. I think why some people leave ahmadiyyat is because they are
skeptics, they don't have personal experience with God, they aren't willing to
give up their own desires for God. personally I have had situations where
God has even shown me true dreams that have come true, he has spoken to
me also. He has shown me things in dreams that I have found in the Qur'an
years later. I don't have time to read every single rebuttal against Islam
because they are written by people who left the faith, who had no faith in the
beginning. I like to call these people skeptics, people who have preconceived
agenda. Yes there are things that maybe a Khalifa says I don't completely
agree with, so what, it is my belief that he is the source of wisdom in the
world. The point of Islam is remove your ego instead of questioning every
single possible thing you see. If it was something major then yes I'd
reconsider my position, but so far that hasn't happened, I know for a
certainty that the message of Islam is perfect. Actually I know a shia guy
who fake converted to ahmadiyyat to marry an ahmadi girl and coincidentally
he was one of my best friends before he met her and then he showed an
interest in ahmadiyyat because of her. Fair enough that's fine, so I took him
to jalsa and everything and he converted. I then found out later through
other means such as social media that he completely faked everything, his
dishonesty with me was devastating. So I cut off ties with him. Unfortunately
ahmadi girls are getting desperate because of an internal problem in the
jamaat, the young ahmadi men were born with weak faith in the beginning,
they weren't taught how to logically evaluate stuff. Personally I think ahmadi
girls should be able to marry outside the jamaat just because there are not
enough ahmadi men who are willing to marry within the jamaat.
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[] ReasonOnFaith 1 point 1 day ago

I think it's comforting for the believing Ahmadi to just assume that those
who no longer believe were "weak" to start with or had some
preconceived "agenda". What you don't realize is that many have left but
walk among you. Further, many have left that you never hear of, who
came from very earnest and devout practice to sincere questioning that
religious leadership in the Jama'at couldn't answer.
Regarding rebuttals, I find most Ahmadis read material from Ahmadiyyat
that includes the critique and the Ahmadi rebuttal. They don't consider
source material in its original, unfiltered context.
I'll be writing lots more in the future. In brief, this is a bit about my story:

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ReasonOnFaith comments on message from a fed up ahmadi girl https://www.reddit.com/r/freespeech_ahmadiyya/comments/69...

http://reasononfaith.org/about/.
Further, I am going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you've
never read Nuzhat Haneef's polite critique of Ahmadiyyat. She writes in a
non-combative style. She was a devout moosi prior to questioning. Most
people don't bother critiquing the Jama'at theology who could, because of
not wanting to disrupt/upset their families.
Here's Nuzhat's piece: https://www.reddit.com/r/freespeech_ahmadiyya
/comments/5tat47/nuzhat_j_haneefs_book_critiquing_mgaahmadiyyat/
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[] Loverofpeace95 [+1] 1 point 1 day ago

There are always going to be people weak in faith, it's just a fact. Yes
there are going to be ahmadis who walk among me who are hiding
the fact they don't believe a single word of anything. That's not new
to me. The only source of ultimate truth is from the Holy Qur'an.
Everything else such as the guidance in the books of the Promised
Messiah were not the word of God hence there is some weakness but
the vast majority of what is said is beneficial because it gives incite
into the truth of Islam and the Qur'an and he is the prophet of our
time who you have sadly mistaken as much less, unfortunately. You
are mistaken to think that ahmadis follow the books of the promised
messiah like the Qur'an. I read them to affirm my belief in Islam, to
increase my faith in it. Also if a mistake was made in what was said in
any of his books then there is no doubt that his intentions were in
accordance to the teachings of the Qur'an. Faith is an essential part of
the wellbeing of a human being, people without it unfortunately fall to
vice and sin more easily and are a matter of fact are more interested
in their ego and desires more than anything else. I don't have time to
read things against the jamaat because no doubt there are issues,
there have been no allegations that hold any weight. If you can find
anything against the Qur'an then I'll be interested, otherwise I'm not
interested. Unfortunately there are some ahmadis who make the
jamaat more important to them than Islam itself, but there are also
those who are more spiritual and focus on that side more. Peace be
on you brother, hope none of this upset you.
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[] ReasonOnFaith 1 point 15 hours ago

Thank you for sharing your perspectives and your kind words of
peace. I believe that as long as we talk about ideas and ideologies
(as opposed to ad hominem attacks on each other), we should be
safe from upsetting one another. Difficult subjects are still worth
having a dialog on.
You mentioned:
The only source of ultimate truth is from the Holy Qur'an.
Of course, this is the position I assumed that you held. And of

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course, I reject that premise. Why you accept it and why I reject it,
is to be sure, another discussion that could be had.
I believe (and I suspect that you may agree with me here on this
point of process), that better understanding of a person's position
comes from a coherent, cogent exposition of those ideas (be it an
essay, a formal debate opening, a video, a book, etc.). Few people
change each other's minds in threaded, textual back and forth as we
are engaging in. However, this is still useful for laying out some
preliminary ideas and for other onlookers to find resources to follow
up with.
Both you and I may not continue this thread until convergence, but I
won't take it as either of us not having more to say. It'll be more an
issue of diminishing returns. I suspect you'll get the last word, since
I'm focused on long form writing that will explain my thought
process better, minimizing the need for as much direct 1:1
discussion that repeats similar points.
Now with that out of the way, here are some final thoughts from
myself, in relation to your most recent response:
You've stated:
Everything else such as the guidance in the books of the
Promised Messiah were not the word of God hence there is some
weakness but the vast majority of what is said is beneficial
because it gives incite into the truth of Islam and the Qur'an
I don't believe this captures my critique of MGA's books. There's a
pattern of religious writings (formal scriptures as well as that of
saintly persons) writing enough ambiguous content across the board,
that one can cherry pick from it as one needs. This would be one of
my primary critiques. The book by Nuzhat Haneef illustrates this in
the section where she examines MGA's life span prophecy. It's a
short read. I'd encourage you to read that section, and then read the
generic Ahmadi defense of critiques against the life span prophecy.
In my estimation, Nuzhat makes a stronger case. Much stronger.
You can't weigh in on that specific issue unless of course, you too,
read both points of view. I'm not challenging you too--we all have
finite time. Should you be interested, this is one spot I would
suggest you investigate.
Also if a mistake was made in what was said in any of his books
then there is no doubt that his intentions were in accordance to
the teachings of the Qur'an.
I submit to you that this line of thought is circular reasoning. I
believe that you believe it. However, if either of Islam or Ahmadiyyat
specifically are false, then this perspective has no real import. That
you are expressing how you feel subjectively, I am happy to accept
as just that.

4 of 11 5/10/17, 9:49 AM
ReasonOnFaith comments on message from a fed up ahmadi girl https://www.reddit.com/r/freespeech_ahmadiyya/comments/69...

Faith is an essential part of the wellbeing of a human being,

people without it unfortunately fall to vice and sin more easily and
are a matter of fact are more interested in their ego and desires
more than anything else.
I see structured moral and ethical principles a good thing too. But I
don't want them anchored to truth claims that are false, as well as
baggage that is of dubious moral value. This undermines their
power. From your perspective, Mormonism isn't true, but Mormons
can have very happy families and communities. What underpins your
religious denomination (Ahmadiyyat) and that of the Mormons to
enable them to give positive benefits to people? A couple of things
which I believe are relevant:
1. A shared sense of community
2. Structured ethics and moral teaching
Religion is good at providing these. I believe it's time for humanity to
emulate the best of religion, tossing out the claims of divinity and
questionable parts that I recall as a Muslim having to squirm about
as so damn unnecessary (read my twitter feed and microblog for
occasional references to these).
I don't have time to read things against the jamaat because no
doubt there are issues, there have been no allegations that hold
any weight.
I too, don't really focus on this. Most of it is from Muslims who are
not Ahmadi, and from my days doing tabligh to them, I'd notice a lot
of misinformation. So, I generally stay clear of that stuff, recognizing
that they may have valid points to be made, but it's difficult (and a
peripheral concern of mine) to separate fact from fiction there. As a
critic of Ahmadiyya Islamic theology, you may be surprised to read
about my views on this specific matter.
If you can find anything against the Qur'an then I'll be interested,
otherwise I'm not interested.
Fair enough. I agree that this is a wise place to start. While I tend to
visit all ends of the spectrum in critique, this is where I spend the
bulk of my energy of critique. I'm not going to give you a laundry list
of videos or books to read. I would find such directed at me with an
instinctive "don't waste my time" attitude--and you are completely
justified having the same reaction if I or another ex-Muslims
suggested long lists of random material to you too, hoping that by
through a bunch of stuff at the wall, something would "stick". I
respect everyone's time too much to engage in that.
This is because in such dialogs, we have a problem of ascertaining
quality. How do we know that the person suggesting a video or book
to us has picked out something worth our time? I think we do
this--both you and I--by looking at what is "bubbling up" to the top.

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What people are talking about and what is garnering attention as

noteworthy.
For example, when I was doing tabligh to Sunni Muslims, the one
book that I felt would make the biggest impact, one of my favorites
to this day, is MGA's "Jesus in India".
Today, and to you, I would say that if you want to spend a minimal
amount of time hearing some of the best arguments re: the Qur'an
(and I say 'best' based on what a lot of ex-Muslims credit as moving
the needle for them), I would have to say it is the work of The
Masked Arab.
He has a 4-part video series (each video is ~ 20 min on average)
on Surah Al-Kahf. Watching them in sequence is ideal, but if you
want to jump to the strongest argument he makes, then the second
video, on the sun setting in a muddy spring, is the one to watch.
I have put all four videos together in an easy to access blog post,
with all of the references inline, for easier review. Should you ever
watch that video in its entirety, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.
Here's that post:
http://reasononfaith.com/the-masked-arab-on-sura-al-
kahf-chapter-18/
Please note that if you don't respond today, tomorrow, next year or
ever, I will not construe that as "hey, he ran away!". I know we can
all have busy lives and finite time to turn over every pebble in every
dialog.
Peace.
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[] Loverofpeace95 [+1] 1 point 13 hours ago

The life span prophesy allegation I've seen it before. Give me

something more resounding. Don't waste your time with these
long flowery pieces of linguistic mastery. I'm sorry but I've
read into the thing about the Promised Messiah's lifespan
allegation. I've literally read about every single allegation
(perhaps not every single one but the majority). May I ask you
what do you believe now? Are you an atheist? I'm not going to
watch anything that insults the Prophet Muhammad (saw). I
know for certainty that he was true. The truth always prevails,
morality prevails. You don't understand what faith is I
suppose.
I'm not compelled to enter into dialogue at this very moment,
since I have a lot of stuff going on, something quite terrible in
my life has just happened. I think textual communication is
just too time consuming. I respect that you have different
views, but unfortunately I just feel like you are wasting your

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time. I just had a skim through the link you posted.... Straight
away I see there is an agenda at play "This is the truth", a scare
tactic. Let me ask you this? Did you have a reason to challenge
your original faith? Did you see something in the Jamaal you
didn't like? Were there certain things you neglected in Islam? Did
you feel guilty? Did you then decide that you'd find a way out of
the jamaat? At one point you might have thought it was the
truth, what was the trigger to leave? There always is something.
Anyway that's not really relevant. Don't take anything I say
personally, peace be with you.
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[] ReasonOnFaith 1 point 21 minutes ago

What follows are your statements (the quoted parts)

interspersed with my responses and commentary...
Let's begin.
The life span prophesy allegation I've seen it before.
Give me something more resounding.
Well now, I could use the same argument for your
"scientific miracles" in the Qur'an claim. I personally read
rebuttals from Ahmadiyyat to other critiques of the life
span prophecy, and found they did not address the level
of argument found in Nuzhat's critique. If you feel you are
exhausted from weaker critiques of this prophecy, your
choosing not to investigate further is your prerogative, of
course.
Don't waste your time with these long flowery pieces
of linguistic mastery.
So my taking time to write to you thoughtfully and
preemptively give you an out from further dialog if you
don't have time, is somehow a waste of time and not one
of empathy and initiative to build bridges of
understanding? Alright. I get it now.
May I ask you what do you believe now? Are you an
atheist?
I'll be writing more about this in my next major essay on
ReasonOnFaith.org. Stay tuned. Short version: I identify
as an agnostic deist. I have no issues with deist positions.
I have issues with unsubstantiated religious claims.
I'm not going to watch anything that insults the
Prophet Muhammad (saw).
Well then, you've just ensured that you don't get to hear
the other side of the argument. Yet you claim to have
made objective, rational decisions to arrive at your

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position. It sounds to me like you've just succumbed to

indoctrination and do not have the emotional maturity to set
aside the thorny discomfort of evaluating opposing
arguments.
If the concept of insults being a detractor from considering
an argument was a universal one, then why should anyone
read the Qur'an? It insults people who disbelieve in it and
threatens them with hellfire over and over again. I could
say that this is a disgusting and insulting book. See how
that would get us nowhere?
Side note: for those interested, this video from The
Masked Arab exposes the double standards regarding
insults and respect that many Muslims espouse.
I know for certainty that he was true.
Yes, you know this by only being willing to read things that
make him look good which you can find at the Jalsa
bookstall. Congratulations on coming to conclusions by
having limited yourself to material that re-enforces your
childhood indoctrination and social conditioning. Bravo.
You don't understand what faith is I suppose.
Right, because you must be God to ascertain that anyone
who now rejects religion, must never have been a devout
Muslim before. I must never have had sincere intentions and
sincerely sought to make Islam make sense to me. I must
be imagining senior Jama'at leadership (i.e. senior
missionaries) telling me that they had no responses to my
queries.
I'm not compelled to enter into dialogue at this very
moment, since I have a lot of stuff going on, something
quite terrible in my life has just happened. I think textual
communication is just too time consuming. I respect that
you have different views, but unfortunately I just feel like
you are wasting your time.
Fair enough. This is what I spent time writing about
preemptively, so that you wouldn't need to feel obliged to
write back. I can fully accept that discussions on social
media can be excessively time consuming. I myself prefer to
focus on writing content many can access, instead of narrow
conversations that likely, only a few will see. I'm sorry to
hear that you are going through difficult times.
I just had a skim through the link you posted.... Straight
away I see there is an agenda at play "This is the truth",
a scare tactic.

8 of 11 5/10/17, 9:49 AM
ReasonOnFaith comments on message from a fed up ahmadi girl https://www.reddit.com/r/freespeech_ahmadiyya/comments/69...

Let me get this straight. You're against scare tactics, but

okay with the Qur'an telling people who disbelieve that they
will have their skins roasted and boiling liquid poured down
their throats? Every viewpoint is going to claim it
represents truth or a closer approximation to it than the
counter viewpoint. That's implicit. You're somehow scared by
that being an explicit statement of confidence, before the
real argument has even been laid out?
Further, I think you've conveniently and completely
mis-characterized what I've written as a preamble to The
Masked Arab's videos. Let's take a look at the only
paragraph from that post that contains the word "truth" in it:
"I know its not easy. This journey doesnt promise you easy;
this journey offers you compelling evidence. Remember: all
were offering is the truth. I know. Thats a big word and its
a word that is often abused and overused. So you get to
decide. After all, this is your journey."
That's pretty gentle. And it's putting control back with you,
the reader, as the one who decides. For fans of the movie
"The Matrix", you'll see this as an homage to what Morpheus
said to Neo.
Further, it is acknowledging how heavy a word 'truth' is, and
how it is often misused. Even as a believing Ahmadi Muslim
in my youth, when I would go to a Jalsa and see banners of
Ahmadiyyat being "The True Islam", I would get
uncomfortable. It sounded really arrogant. So does the True
Islam campaign that the Jama'at runs today.
Surely my usage, couched in qualifiers here, is far less
problematic. Unless that is, you're looking for an excuse not
to engage with content that will challenge the very core of
your comforting indoctrination.
Let me ask you this? Did you have a reason to challenge
your original faith?
Yes, to believe in it for reasons greater than, "I was born
into it and being a religious Ahmadi makes my parents
happy.". Didn't you find a reason to question your beliefs
and verify they held up to scrutiny, especially if you were
born into Ahmadiyyat?
Did you see something in the Jamaal [sic] you didn't like?
Were there certain things you neglected in Islam? Did
you feel guilty? Did you then decide that you'd find a way
out of the jamaat?
Alright, so here comes the psycho-analysis. This angle won't
work on me. I was active in tabligh and researching hot

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topics to be better at tabligh. I then came across arguments

I could not answer, and nor could the murrabis when I had
dialogs with them. Their non-answers were my answer. I
have since found way more at issue with both Islam
generally and Ahmadiyyat specifically, although I focus more
on the former.
Did you feel guilty? Did you then decide that you'd find a
way out of the jamaat?
No, I have always lived a pretty austere life in comparison to
most. More so than peers my age who were far less
religious, had far more to feel guilty about, and have since
taken leadership levels in local and national levels of the
Jama'at in the countries in which they now live.
I left to follow my conscience, not for an easy life. Given my
social standing (friends, family, acquaintances,
opportunities) I gave up a hell of a lot disappearing from the
Jama'at. The easy thing to do would have been to stay
involved and milk it for all the social benefits. But that would
be wrong and difficult to pull off. You'll hear more of that
when I tell more of my story, later this year.
At one point you might have thought it was the truth,
what was the trigger to leave?
Yes, I was a very committed young mubaligh. The trigger
was non-universal teachings in the Qur'an. Problematic
verses even missionaries in private conversations conceded
were tough to explain and which they were trying to boldly
re-interpret themselves.
Don't take anything I say personally, peace be with you.
Likewise. I hope you can understand that we have to let go
of our inherited biases and as much as is humanly possible,
strive to be objective. This requires exposing ourselves to
viewpoints that we may initially find uncomfortable.
I hope things improve on the personal front for you, as you
work through this difficult time. Peace.
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message from a fed up ahmadi girl (self.freespeech_ahmadiyya)

Submitted 6 days ago by tiredlajna

11 of 11 5/10/17, 9:49 AM