Shirt Cutting - The Outfitter's Forum - The Cutter and Tailor

Shirt Cutting - The Outfitter's Forum - The Cutter and Tailor http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?
showtopic=990
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Shirt Cutting
Started by Sator , Feb 24 2010 12:14 AM
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Posted 24 February 2010 - 12:14 AM

Sator
This comes from a book published in 1985 by Fairchild Publications entitled "A Guide to Casual Clothes" by Edmund
B. Roberts and Gary Onishenko. It has been out of print for around 25 years now. Copies are both rare and expensive.
Unlike publications that are close to a half a century old and unlikely to ever be reprinted again, I hesitate to post
these here. However, it is likely to languish in obscurity otherwise and I hope to bring the excellent writing of the
authors to wider attention in the hope that they will publish more, or bring out a new edition of their book. If a new
version is printed I will be happy to remove this post to encourage readers to purchase the book. If Mr Roberts or
Onishenko should be out there reading this, I do beg of you to keep this in mind. Likewise, if this thread rekindles
enough interest in the book for Fairchild to run a reprint, I will promptly remove this thread.
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Shirt Cutting - The Outfitter's Forum - The Cutter and Tailor http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=990
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amateursarto
Thank you Sator,

When I first began making my own shirts I looked high and low for this publication; it's listed by DPC in his
shirtmaking book as a recommeded read (IIRC), and you can't find it anywhere. I can't tell you how much I
appreciate having this here.

posaune
This sleeve has a very nice cap. Yes, the book would be a good ressource for casual wear done by a tailor.
Lg
Posaune

Sator
The opening thread has been updated.
Edmund B. Roberts is credited in the book as being "Professor, Men's Wear Design & Marketing Department -
Fashion Institute of Technology". The FIT website do not currently list him as being on their faculty:
http://www.fitnyc.edu/6086.asp (http://www.fitnyc.edu/6086.asp)
This suggests he has either moved on or retired. I think Fairchild is also the publisher for the Cabrera book on
coatmaking, which was obviously enough of a success to have remained in print.

Sator
'posaune', on 23 Feb 2010 - 11:31 AM, said:
This sleeve has a very nice cap. Yes, the book would be a good ressource for casual wear done by a tailor.
27 of 31 5/22/17, 2:40 PM
I don't know why the title of the book is called "casual clothes" because the shirt sloper is perfectly suited to shirts of
all kinds. I suspect that the title of the book may have been forced onto the authors by the publisher.

Sator
The sections on drafting the yoke have been added. The section on drafting the collar is to follow.

MrJulius
Thank you for this resource, I wish this book was still in publication.
Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:49 PM

Dukemati
'Sator', on 25 Feb 2010 - 4:46 PM, said:
The sections on drafting the yoke have been added. The section on drafting the collar is to follow.
Dear Sator,
I was wondering if you have forgotten to post the above mentioned section on collar drafting.
Thanks in advance.

Sator
I haven't had time yet...

Sator
The opening post has been edited adding the sections on cutting shirt collars.
Posted 04 March 2010 - 02:38 AM

Dukemati
'Sator', on 03 Mar 2010 - 05:23 AM, said:
The opening post has been edited adding the sections on cutting shirt collars.
Thank you very much!

posaune
Thanks, very inspiring. Best I have seen so far

Lg
posaune
Posted 16 June 2010 - 04:59 PM

aftabjan
Dear Sator... Thank U very much for sharing such an informative post...hope for more like this one...thnak u again my
dear n God bless u
Posted 16 June 2010 - 07:03 PM

CoronarJunkee
Notes on that shirts system (I've made one using it) :
- Shoulder slope very steep. One would probably like/need to straighten it a bit.
- Very little ease in the chest (2''/5cm/half). This gives a nice narrow fit (Also a good proportion between front
width/back width/armhole diameter - the armhole could be cut a bit higher for such a close cut, though).
- BEWARE : The adjustments to the Contour Shirt or Torso line shirt - there's lots of waist suppression and he's also
28 of 31 5/22/17, 2:40 PM
taking in quite a bit on the hips. One should check back with the client's measurements because the shirt is likely
going to be too tight in these areas or just not wide enough to prevent it from riding up and outside the pants when
moving.
- It's kind of difficult to apply direct measures and not referring to the size chart since all measurements for shoulder
slope, neck width etc. are given in the chart and not calculated. There's no hint on what neck band width you're going
to turn up with in the end - it's not give in the size chart!
All in all, I was quite happy after making the alterations needed. The sleeves are nice (I went for the 4'' cap). I didn't
try the collars but used a Rundschau collar instead.
Hope that might help people who would want to use this cutting method.
Cheers
David
Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:30 AM

amateursarto
CJ,
What would you recommend (as to measurement) when straightening up the shoulder slope? In the draft the
measure given is 1 1/2" (depth) from base of neck to mid shoulder for determining the shoulder slope (front). By how
much would you (or others) recommend changing this?
Thanks...
Edited by amateursarto, 17 June 2010 - 12:31 AM.

CoronarJunkee
I've made a small draft of the concerned areas/original and modified version to see in numbers what I would change.
The modification is an example and relates to draft in size 38 but could be applied to any size.
Here they are :
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NOTE : very strange is the fact that the front neckhole moves up from size 40 upwards (due to the fact that the back
length stays the same but the "front neck level" value continues to increase).
So what I would change is

- to raise the back shoulder pitch line by 3/8'' (Amateursarto : actually the back shoulder pitch isn't 1 1/2'' but that
PLUS the back neck raise that lies between 3/4'' and 1 1/8''!!! And the front shoulder slope is even much steeper!).
- to raise the front shoulder pitch by 7/8'' (that's actually the point where there's a real problem with this draft in my
opinion - the shoulder notch is located very much towards the front and once the sleeve is set in, both the sleeve and
the back pull the front shoulder backwards)
- to raise the scye level by at least 3/4'' to maintain the scye circumference. But as I said, I think it can really be
smaller/shallower than in the draft.
Actually, what I usually do when I'm unsure with a shoulder slope, is to draft a shoulder slope 1:3 (as shown in my
modifications). I experienced that this slope works quite well for many people. I use it for shirts but also for coats
without shoulder pads (or I add height) and all the historical stuff I'm drafting. Then, if I want to shift the shoulder
seam backwards, I simply cut away from the back and add it to the front, as you'd do for a yoke - I also place approx.
half of the back shoulder ease in a dart located in the modified back seam towards the armscye since the seam has
moved closer to the shoulder blades.
That also works for a crooked cut if you don't use the construction lines to define the shoulder slope but the new CF
line (armhole would then be stretched during making and CF is straight again).
Anyways.
To see if a pattern could work out right if it seems strange, I draw a 1:3 shoulder slope for comparison with the one
from the draft. I can then better judge if it's merely styling of would change the posture or if I just couldn't get the
man into the garment.
Hope that helps.

Maybe someone else has some other input concerning this.
Cheers
David (who is happy because he just got a new sewing machine on ebay... finally something to rely on for the
reeeeeally thick fabrics!)
Edited by CoronarJunkee, 17 June 2010 - 02:37 AM.

jcsprowls
Actually, the neckline grade is different than what you've drafted. The back neckline does not get deeper. The front of
the yoke and the front body do get longer.
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As far as calculating the shoulder slope, I think it's much easier to triangulate off the back waist and the back neck.
These incline measures are too time consuming to try to codify.
Attached Files
(http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=196)
NecklineGrade.jpg (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&
section=attach&attach_id=196) 141.25KB 326 downloads

CoronarJunkee
'jcsprowls', on 16 Jun 2010 - 12:36 PM, said:
Actually, the neckline grade is different than what you've drafted. The back neckline does not get deeper. The front of the yoke and
the front body do get longer.
As far as calculating the shoulder slope, I think it's much easier to triangulate off the back waist and the back neck. These incline
measures are too time consuming to try to codify.
Actually, on the right side, it's just applying the data from the Onishenko shirt block measures. In the draft, you do
create the yoke yourself by laying front and back together (see top of the page).
I drafted the different sizes not for grading purposes but to see how the given numbers make the draft evolve through
the sizes.
For the shoulder slope, I find it quite strange to measure down to the waist and then back up to the shoulder point.
They do that in a french cutting system (Ladevze-Darroux) I use, too but I usually have to adjust the shoulder to
make it fit properly. I prefer the Rundschau method of squaring off the CB at the back neck base and then moving
down at back width 2cm or so. I usually do what I did on the left drawing, a 1:3 slope from front neck or back neck
point.
Your "triangulation"-method, is it like applying direct measures - half shoulder width (from one shoulder point to the
other) applied from CB neck and over shoulder measure from CB waist to CF waist? Did I get that right?
If so, do you use standard measurement charts for that (I've never seen these measurements included) or do you talk
of bespoke work where you'd measure those yourself?
If that's not what you meant by "triangulating", then what is the method you use?
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Posted 24 February 2010 - 12:14 AM

Posted 24 February 2010 - 03:27 AM

Thank you Sator,

Posted 24 February 2010 - 04:31 AM

Posted 24 February 2010 - 09:39 AM

The opening thread has been updated.

Posted 24 February 2010 - 09:46 AM

'posaune', on 23 Feb 2010 - 11:31 AM, said:

Posted 26 February 2010 - 09:46 AM

Posted 26 February 2010 - 11:36 AM

Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:49 PM

'Sator', on 25 Feb 2010 - 4:46 PM, said:

Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:51 PM

I haven't had time yet...

Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:23 PM

Posted 04 March 2010 - 02:38 AM

'Sator', on 03 Mar 2010 - 05:23 AM, said:

Thank you very much!

Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:35 PM

Thanks, very inspiring. Best I have seen so far

Posted 16 June 2010 - 04:59 PM

Posted 16 June 2010 - 07:03 PM

Notes on that shirts system (I've made one using it) :

Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:30 AM

Edited by amateursarto, 17 June 2010 - 12:31 AM.

Posted 17 June 2010 - 02:32 AM

Here they are :

So what I would change is

Hope that helps.

Edited by CoronarJunkee, 17 June 2010 - 02:37 AM.

Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:36 AM

Posted 17 June 2010 - 06:33 AM

'jcsprowls', on 16 Jun 2010 - 12:36 PM, said:

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