Richard Long: Lines of Thought a Conversation with Nick Stewart

Author(s): Richard Long and Nick Stewart

Source: Circa, No. 19 (Nov. - Dec., 1984), pp. 8-13
Published by: Circa Art Magazine
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25556921
Accessed: 25-10-2016 01:51 UTC

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CIRCA 8

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Richard Long, 'A line with tracks and a storm,' Bolivia 1981.

RICHARD LONG
LINES OF THOUGHT
A Conversation with Nick Stewart

Since the mid 1970's Richard Long's artwork has increasingly been
surrounded by extremes of critical appraisal. Claims for his "mystical kinship
with the landscape"1stand in stark contrast to accusations concerning the
"unquestionable right of the white man to be anywhere and everywhere in
the world".2 Eitherway, Long remains a singularly influential and enigmatic
figure in recent British art history. His work, though primarily centred on the
activity of walking, extends through; map works, photographs, indoor and
outdoor sculptures, books, word pieces, and mud 'drawings'. This apparently
pluralist mix of media is, however, founded upon a singleminded modernist
vision. Long pursues his art with a truly zealous faith. From Bristol to Bolivia,
from Dartmoor to Death Valley, the primeval world is sought out, scrutinised,
and finally 'framed' by the Artworld via his books, sculptures, and
photographs. The work is an exquisite refinement of formalist aesthetics:
the epitome of modernist certainties. As the 80's unfold it is just these very
certainties that are being questioned. For Long, and many other artists holding
similar beliefs, the next decade will prove to be a particularly testing time.
The erosion of traditional modernist values and the growing awareness of
the need to deal with the dichotomy of art ? the creative process ? and
society at large, will inevitably lead to a shift in the understanding and
application of the contemporary arts within society.

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This interview was given by Long on the
occasion of the opening of the
exhibition, 'River Avon Mud Works', at
The Orchard Gallery, Derry, on the 21st
September 1984.
NS In your work how do you deal with
the imposition of precise formal
elements on an informal landscape. For
example, when you draw a circle on a
map, how religiously do you follow that
circle in the actual landscape?
RL Well, like a lot of my work, it's very
ritualised. It's about a geometry of time
and distance, like the walked lines and
circles are about geometry and this
show, here at The Orchard Gallery is
about geometry. In the particular works
you're referring to the area is chosen
very carefully. That's why I use the
relatively open moorland of Dartmoor
for a lot of my works. One thing about
my work is that it is extremely practical,
there are no technical complications.
Often one of the easiest ways to walk
across a moor is to go in a straight line
by following a compass. It's actually the
most practical way to do it. The area is
chosen very carefully before hand, so I
have a general idea what the type of
country is and whether or not it is
practically possible to walk in a perfect
circle in that part of the country. I once
did a walk in Scotland; the idea was to
walk in a straight line for twelve hours
and the piece was called, As The Crow
Flies. I had tried to read the map as well
Richard Long, River Avon Mud Works', Installations! view at the Orchard Gallery, Derry, 1984.
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CIRCA 9
as I could before doing the work, but, pieces' for about four or five years. The
there was just one place where there first mud piece similar to the splash
was a small cliff in the middle of the here, I think was done at the beginning
walk. If you look very carefully, on the of this year. I see this work as very much
finished artwork there is a little notch in about water it's just that it happens to
the line on the map where the cliff is. have some mud mixed in with it. The
show here is part of a continuing
NS Looking at this work in The Orchard interest in rivers in general and the river
Gallery, why do you feel the need to Avon in particular. All the mud in the
maintain the geometric rigidity in the show comes from the Avon.
sense that you rule lines and draw
circles with compasses. Could you not NS Are these works for sale? If
actually work directly onto the wall someone wants to buy a mud 'drawing'
intuitively and build it up until it feels can they do that?
right?
RL Yes, if it was convenient I could do
RL It's typical of my work; a such a work in someone's house. There
combination of the natural energy and are works like these in quite a few
the abstract idea ? the human collections in different parts of the
dimension. So if I do a walk in a circle, world.
the circle is a perfect idea but the actual
walking of it is up and down and full of NS That's interesting because I've read
the same kind of energy as in the mudthat with the stone works, when
in these pieces. My work has alwayssomeone buys one you give them a
been this balance between the energy
pamphlet with instructions on how to
and shape of nature and the formality ofrebuild the piece. That throws up
human ideas. interesting questions about how
arbitrary they are and whether or not
NS Your circle is very different from, say,other people can create them and why
something like the Zen enso. should someone buy one of your
sculptures and not go out and do it
RL Well, I think the splash piece is verythemselves . . . Questions of
close to that ... authorship?
NS Yes, it seems almost iconoclastic forRL I suppose, theoretically, anyone
you. It's separate from the other pieces.could make works like the ones in the
Is it a very different piece for you? show. The fact is no-one ever does
except the artist who makes it. It's the
RL I've been doing 'pouring waterold chestnut of modern art, "anyone
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 CIRCA 10
could do it". In fact when it comes
down to it, it's only the artists who do
it. But with the sculptures, as you say,
each work has a kind of certificate that
gives a general procedure that you have
to follow in making it. If you follow that
procedure, which includes the diameter,
the density of stone and how they are
placed, ... well in fact the whole idea is
that each time the work is made it is
made in a new way because each stone
is in a different place. Nevertheless, the
work looks almost identical each time.
It's the idea of renewal of the Japanese
rock garden that's raked every morning.
It's the same place but it's a new place
every time.
NS How particular are you when you
select stones for a sculpture?
RL Each one individually is not precious.
If I'm making a sculpture for a gallery
space I always choose stones that I like
the look of, that I have some interest in.
Often I make a work and I don't know
what type of stone I'm using until much
later when someone might tell me.
Often in a very practical way I'll use
stones which are close to the place that
I'm working So if I'm in Tokyo I'll use
local stones. When I was in Dublin
recently for the ROSC show I used
stones from a nearby quarry. I use
stones because they are the common
material of the world. So I can be an
artist and make sculpture anywhere.
NS Being a well known artist allows you
to do a lot of things you wouldn't be able
to do if you were relatively unknown and
without resources.
RL I was the same kind of artist when
I was unknown! I think that I could be
an artist even if I had no resources at all.
The fact that now I can afford to go to
the Himalayas or the Andes has just
changed the location but it hasn't
changed my work in any way. I don't
need a million dollars to make a work of
art, I don't have to buy the land. I still feel
that the American land artists' work is
very different from my philosophy about
life and art. I'm not a political person but
to me something like American land art
is completely capitalist art, because you
can't be that type of artist unless you
have a million pounds or you own the
land. It's about possession. I think my
work is much more about a freedom to
be light on my feet and to leave invisible
art or, to leave traces. My work is very
simple and anyone can do it. It's just
about walking and materials to hand,
but no one else really does it. I think that
that is nothing to do with the market, it's
just that maybe no one else is interested
enough to do it in that particular way.
We are all unique people, so the art is
rare.
NS The implications of it are, however,
very different from the implications of
something like the works of
Michelangelo in terms of the amount of
talent or skill someone has to have.
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RL I think this whole idea of the skill and
craftsmanship that set Michelangelo
aside, made him unique ... I accept that
there is no craft, no technique in the
same way but I think there is the
originality of ideas which is actually at
NS Do you ever wish for a more social
the heart of a lot of contemporary art.
form and context for your work, to be
It's the meaning of it, not how it's done.
So anyone could actually do my work more directly involved with people?
but no one would have the particular
ideas for doing it, the same motivation.
NS The problem in contemporary art is NS Do you ever feel very isolated and
where the meaning of ideas stops. The alienated when you're on one of your
ideas are often only relevant within the
contemporary art world.
RL I think that art belongs in a very pure
way on its own. Art for me, is never
interesting when it is overtly political.
Art anyway is very political because it
expands the imagination. It has the
RAILWAY LINE
A PAIR OF BUZZARDS
THISTLES
IRISHMAN'S WALL
WHITEHORSE HILL
STATTS HOUSE
WINNEY'S DOWN
EAST DART RIVER
SANDY HOLE PASS
A DEAD SHEEP
BROAD DOWN
SHEEP BONES
COTTON GRASS
CLAPPER BRIDGE
MIDDAY
GORSE
GRANITE BOULDERS
SECOND FOX
SMALL WOOD
WEST DART RIVER
NAKER'S HILL
FOX
OLD CHINA CLAY WORKINGS
RED LAKE
PONIES
FIRST SUN
CAIRN
BRACKEN
STONE ROW
A STRAIGHT NORTHWARD WALK ACROSS DARTMOOR 1979
Richard Long, A Straight Northward Walk Across Dartmoor,'
1979.
power to make peoples lives better and
happier, but, at the same time it's a kind
of antidote to all the political things that
people have in their minds.
NS The work is not, therefore, intended
to refer people to a social reality outside,
but is, rather, more to encourage
introspection and reflection?
RL Yes, if you have to define ... I actually
never think about those things. I think
it's presumptious to try and guess how
people should look at it. The intention
is just to do it and to put it into the world.
I think all good art has to somehow find
its own level. I think that if it's true that
certain artists have a reputation it's only
due to the fact that over the years the
art that they've put out into the world
people have found interesting. If it
wasn't interesting then it would have
just fallen by the wayside. I think that's
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all there is to it really. You can never do
anything artificially or against human
nature. If an artist's work or life has got
some particular worth then people are
going to be interested.
RL No, Not at all, no.
walks?
RL No, because you're in a different kind
of reality. In a way this world of galleries
and a lot of the stuff we've been talking
about seems very unimportant. When
you're up in the mountains it's a
different kind of reality.
NS But you are there because of that
"unimportant" reality. You're not a real
vagabond. When you're there, there are
people in Tokyo or New York, or
wherever, waiting to see what you bring
back. If you were a real tramp out there
it might be different.
RL Obviously it's different for a
wandering nomad or hippy or what have
you ... they have their own reality of
travelling. All I'm saying is that I use the
world as it is. It seems a very simple
thing to realise that the world exists of
the Australian outback or the mountains
of Kashmir. It seems completely
legitimate to go and make art and be an
artist in those places. The world is just
as much about those places as it is
about Derry or Tokyo or New York.
Obviously it's true that I do connect to
the art ghettoes of New York and
London because, as you say, that is
where my art is seen. But I've never
made any claims for my work, that it has
to change the market. If anything has
changed it's just the nature of the work;
that people in the art world realise that
there is all this other art out in places
they'll never see; that it's not just in
galleries but can be anywhere. Plus
there's the other side of the coin, that,
occasionally up in the places where I
make my works the local people will see
them.
NS Have you ever had a direct response
from people like that?
RL Occasionally someone has walked
past when I've been making a water
drawing or something and they've
actually taken a look at what I'm doing,
but haven't recognised it as art. I can say
I've no idea what they do think if they
see one of my pieces. One of the works
that I made in Nepal during the last trip
there was to brush the footpath of
sticks and stones. The footpath went
through the forest and for just maybe
fifty yards there was a sort of white trail
of cleaned dust. So obviously people
would walk along the very line of my
Richard Long, 'Stones in Ladakh', Parkachik La, Northern
India, 1984.
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 CIRCA 12
work. The idea was that it was along the
very line of human movement.
NS Do you take lots of photographs
when you are on these trips?
RL No I don't. I usually just take one or
two of each work. In other words it's not
recording the process of people walking
along the path that's important because
that's taken for granted. The title of the
work was, A Brushed Path, so if people
are interested enough in it to think about
what it means they'll understand that
local people actually walk over the
work.
NS You go out into the world, and the
world is a very unpredictable place. It's
a fluid flux of political, social, and
environmental energy. Does it ever
happen that it totally 'blows you away'
to the extent that you just can't achieve
what you set out to do?
RL Oh yes, often. The way I work you
have to be extremely flexible. Quite
often I might go to a place with a
preconceived idea and as you say it gets
'blown' away by local conditions.
NS In a lot of your photographs nature
seems to be controlled. The feeling is
that you're in control even though you're
in a wild place. It feels just, still, at the
moment you take the photograph. Have
you ever done work where the feeling is
that you are just holding it together and
no more? What if a flock of birds
alighted on the sculpture just as you
photographed it, would that bother you?
RL No, not at all. It's just that it rarely
happens! I suppose I'm attracted to
quiet contemplative art. I hope that is
the feeling of this show. It's also the
feeling that I have in the big empty
landscapes where I make the landscape
work. The photographs too, as art,
should echo that same quality.
NS Do you ever feel frustrated with
photographs in the sense of what they
can't communicate?
RL I accept photographs for what they
are. They make accessible to a large
public things they won't see themselves
or art that may disappear. So they do a
job. I would hate to be an artist that
relied totally on photographs. It's
important for me to have the freedom to
make a show like this that has a much
more immediate reality, or that I can
publish books. It's important to have
these different forms of making art,
which are all complementary.
NS In a traditional culture the idea of
something like the stone or wood circles
would have been functional and
meaningful for generations. InNS I'd agree they are pure and empty,
contemporary art what people are doingbut I don't know about being neutral...
is much more immediate. Compared to
traditional forms it's a void. RL I think that art is only an elite system
Contemporary art is something because there are very few artists in the
world. I think that what is wrong with
'becoming' where as traditional culture
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is what it is. ... our life is the political and social reality,
I don't think there is much wrong with
art. I think that all the kinds of ills that
RL. One idea of contemporary art is that
we have ... all the things we are talking
you are inventing new meanings. I don't
about are not the artists fault. We've
think it can ever be compared to ancient
ethnic cultures. When I go say, to thebeen fucked up by politicians. The real
Himalayas, and enter the world ofobscenities
a in life are nuclear power, or
unemployment, or mismanaged
Buddhist culture, or if I go to North
America I might come into the influenceeconomies, or the corruption of
of the Plains Indians ... I'm very muchpoliticians. Art leads its own path
aware that you can't pretend to be separate
a to all that.
Buddhist, neither am I a Red Indian. I
choose to make my work from my own NS The reason I'm asking so much
culture, from my own contemporary about this is because of the paradoxical
situation ? as always in art ? when
viewpoint. I have, though, noticed that
you
Buddhists make sculptures of hands, look at a show like this it
they actually use mud, and in the same
automatically calls to mind its opposite,
way the Red Indians didn't have a sense
which is maybe some of the things
of ownership, everything they did waswe've been talking about. I feel it is
quite temporary ... I think there areperfectly natural for people in a world
fantastic universal connections but like
I this to ask, well, how does this
think you always have to be true to relate to my political and social reality?
yourself and even though I'm in these
places with incredibly long cultural RL I think it relates to it in that it's so
histories I'm still making contemporary
different from it. Hopefully a show like
art. My meanings reside now. My art isthis will make people's lives better not
worse. That's all you can hope for.
a contemporary parallel with all these
other cultures, just one more layer in the
history. NS You said in one of your statements
f^^^fftf^ff %<? %&g$;&&im ^x*?gm& $,& $> fppff fiff:: "the source of my work is nature".
When you say nature do you mean an
internal creative source or an external
environmental reality... if I can separate
them like that?
RL Taking my inspiration from the
natural world and natural materials.
NS When you are choosing a site is it a
feeling inside you that determines the
site or is it the appearance of the
landscape?
RL Any particular landscape sculpture
is made in a place that I've intuitively
stopped at. Quite often it's a place on a
walk where I've sat down to have a
rest. At those moments you actually
look at the place longer than if you were
just walking through. It's quite often at
a resting place that a sculpture is made.
Richard Long, 'Throwing Muddy Water', Orchard Gallery,
Derry, 1984
NS In the statement Words After the
NS There is a strong desire manifest in Fact you made in 1982, you said that
much contemporary art to break out of particularly clearly; "a walk moves
an enclosed system into something through life, it is physical but afterwards
more involved with the world that invisible. A sculpture is still, a stopping
ninety nine per cent of people inhabit. place, visible."
RL The system is not at the centre of art. RL What I was referring to there was the
The real heart of the art world is the dimension of time, I make art out of
work itself. I think it's quite important to time, like a walk say of a hundred tors
make the distinction. A contemporary in a hundred hours. Or I make art out of
art gallery can be as beautiful as a Zen objects that are somehow outside time
garden. There is no reason why people because they stay there.
shouldn't have the chance to buy art or
that an artist can't live off his or her art. NS With this work here at the Orchard
I don't see the problem of art being in Gallery are you moving more away from
the market place or of galleries existing the walks?
as very pure, empty, neutral spaces in a
chaotic world. RL No, it's just that this show takes this
form. I continue all the strands of my
work fairly simultaneously. This work
here is made with my hands, so it's the
physical gestures of my hands, but a
walk is exactly the same except that it's
the physical gestures of my feet. It's
just as physically energetic to make a
All use subject to http://about.jstor.org/terms

walk. The energy here is just a bit more
recognisable. But for anyone really
thinking about the walking pieces, the
energy there is also quite obvious.
Going back to all the earlier stuff... you
can't preach through art, you can only
do it in the most pure way you can and
people take it or leave it. All good art has
something to do with social reality
because it's something done by one
human being for other human beings. I
think that the very fact that my work is
very simple, that it is shapes and forms
which are not my own, circles and lines
belong to everyone, anyone can
understand them. I would have thought
that that made the work more York. But I can't earn my living even by
understandable rather than being a selling works in England let alone just
NS In contemporary art it is very hard to
find a niche in a small local world in
which you can continue to make your
work. You are almost forced to play the
game in the market place ... the big
change will be the shift back to a locally
based activity. Many artists just want a
modest living in their home
environment. But a lot of changes will
have to happen before that comes
about.
RL The crux of what you're saying is the
way you earn your living. I come from
Bristol which is the equivalent in size of
Derry, and I can live quite happily there,
I don't need to live in London or New
CIRCA 13
people to actually buy it.
NS What do you surround yourself with
when you are at home? What do you like
to live with in your own personal space?
RL There's a lot of answers to that! I like
to live with just a very few of my own
works or even maybe some tiny little
sculptures that my children have made.
Basically I live surrounded by all the
domestic pandemonium of any normal
household. I have a tiny little studio,
which I cycle to every day, in the
country, it has nothing in it at all, just an
empty room where I work. I don't really
collect work. I don't have a big collection
of ethnic objects from all over the world.
I never feel like a tourist.

Ill

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Richard Long, Kilkenny Circle', Butler Gallery, Kilkenny,1984.

mystification. The procedure, thearound Bristol. You do have to depend NS Are you an optimist not just for the
technique, and the whole way it's made on this rarified ... what artists do is very art world but for the social realities you
and the materials it's made with, they perverse and eccentric and maybe there see when you travel? Generally are you
are simple and common. It should be are only 25 people in the world who are optimistic that in a few years you'll be
very accessible. crazy enough to actually buy your work able to travel wherever you wish?
and if those people are scattered all
NS / don't think people look in that around the world then that's how it RL I'm not that optimistic about the
innocent way because we don't live in looks like you have this international world. I think we live in pretty desperate
that kind of innocent world. clique. But in my experience at the best times. It's the first time in the history of
level the people who do buy art are the world where you doubt the
RL Yes but, I think art should be made extremely nice people. Most people permanence of the human condition.
in that innocent way ... there is no don't realise that there are people in the That's the desperate fear that everyone
reason for art not to be made in that world who are born to be collectors, lives with. On a more personal level, I
innocent way. they're not born with money, they start feel that if the politics of the world did
their collections very young, just like change somehow and that maybe I
NS Yes, but it's such a specialist thing, artists start making their art very young. could only work within a radius of 15
it's like a science, the gallery is like aThey make their money from their miles around Bristol, I'd still feel that I
laboratory. collection. They love art passionately. could be an artist. I think, whatever my
For them money is not important, they fears for the world are, art should always
RL I still think my work is accessible to actually are interested in the art. be made in an optimistic spirit, it's
a lot of people that a lot of modern art always more interesting if it's made in
wouldn't be. You have to believe in art NS Are they interested in art or the art an optimistic spirit. It's like saying that
and I totally accept that. I completely object? I think there is a difference. people prefer love songs to songs of
believe in the work in this show. If I want despair or hate. When it comes down to
to make a straight ten mile walk across RL They are fascinated by the whole it art is a celebration of lifa It's the way
Exmoor I would never have done it historical pattern of art and are you have of being a human being to the
unless I had complete faith that what I interested in new ideas. I don't think it's best of your ability. D
was doing was a very interesting thing so important what the art looks like. For NOTES
to da Exactly why it's interesting, that's some people it's just being caught up in 1Gabrielle Jepson, Richard Long, Fog
the kind of mysterious thing about art. this changing world of ideas. The point Art Museum, Boston, 1980.
For me it's a question of faith and I do about art anyway is that it's seen and 2Rasheed Araeen, letter to Art Monthl
believe in what I'm doing. known. It's only necessary for a very few September 1983.

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