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LIBRARY OF THE

UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA

GIFT OF

Robert K. Gooch
THE LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY
EDITED BY

E. CAPPS, i'h.d., LL.D. T. E. PAGE, litt.d.


W. H. D. ROUSE, utt.d.

PLATO
in
PLATO
WITH AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION

III
THE STATESMAN PHILEBUS
BY
HAROLD N. FOWLER, Ph.D.
PRoFESSoR oF GREEK, WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY

ION
BY

W. R. M. LAMB, M.A.
SoMETIME FELLoW oF TRINITY CoLLEGE, CAMHRIDGE

LONDON: WILLIAM HEINEMANN


NEW YORK: G, P. PUTNAM'S SONS
MCMXXV
PA
3W2

Prinied in Greai Briiain


PREFACE
The Greek text of the Statesman and the Philebus is
based upon the Codex Clarkianus (B) and the Codex
Venetus (T). Deviations from the text as given in
one or other of these mss. are noted in the margin at
the foot of the page. In most instances disagreement
between these two mss. and occasionally readings
found in inferior mss. or in ancient quotations, as
well as emendations offered by modern scholars, are
noted, even when they have not affected the text
chosen. The following abbreviations are employed :

B = Codex Clarkianus or Bodleianus, written a.d.


895.
T = Codex Venetus, Append. class. 4, cod. 1 ;

twelfth century.
W = Codex Vindobonensis 54, Suppl. graec. 7.
D = Codex Venetus 185.
G = Codex Venetus, Append. class. 4, cod. 54.
btw= later hands of BTW.
v
PREFACE

The brief introductions aim merely at supplying


such information as may in some measure aid the
reader to appreciate these particular dialogues.

Harold N. Fowler.

The text here given of the Ion is based on the


recension of Schanz. Two modern corrections are
adopted and noted at 533 d and 539 e. The intro
duction and notes are intended to give only
immediate help in understanding the dialogue.

W. R. M. Lamb.

vi
CONTENTS
PAGE

GENERAL INTRoDUCTIoN ix
THE STATESMAN 1

PHILEUUS . 197

IoN 401

INDEX 448

vii
GENERAL INTRODUCTION
Plato was born in 427 b.c. of Athenian parents who
could provide him with the best education of the
day, and ample means and leisure throughout his life.
He came to manhood in the dismal close of the
Peloponnesian War, when Aristophanes was at the
height of his success, and Sophocles and Euripides
had produced their last plays. As a boy he doubtless
heard the lectures of Gorgias, Protagoras, and other
sophists, and his early bent seems to have been
towards poetry. But his intelligence was too pro
gressive to rest in the agnostic position on which
the sophistic culture was based. A century before,
Heracleitus had declared knowledge to be impossible,
because the objects of sense are continually changing ;
yet now a certain Cratylus was trying to build a
theory of knowledge over the assertion of flux, by
developing some hints let fall by its oracular author
about the truth contained in names. From this
influence Plato passed into contact with Socrates,
whose character and gifts have left a singular impress
on the thought of mankind. This elfect is almost
wholly due to Plato's applications and extensions of
ix
GENERAL INTRODUCTION

his master's thought ; since, fortunately for us, the


pupil not only became a teacher in his turn, but
brought his artistic genius into play, and composed
the memorials of philosophic talk which we know
as the Dialogues. Xenophon, Antisthenes, and
Aeschines were other disciples of Socrates who drew
similar sketches of his teaching : the suggestion
" "
came from the mimes of the Syracusan Sophron,
realistic studies of conversation between ordinary
types of character. As Plato became more engrossed
in the Socratic speculations, this artistic impulse
was strengthened by the desire of recording each
definite stage of thought as a basis for new discussion
and advance.
When Plato was twenty years old, Socrates was
over sixty, and had long been notorious in Athens
for his peculiar kind of sophistry. In the Phaedo he
tells how he tried, in his youth, the current scientific
explanations of the universe, and found them full of
puzzles. He then met with the theory of Anax-
"
agoras,, that the cause of everything is mind."
This was more promising : but it led nowhere after
all, since it failed to rise above the conception of
" "
physical energy ; this mind showed no intelligent
aim. Disappointed of an assurance that the universe
works for the best, Socrates betook himself to the
" "
plan of making definitions of beautiful," good,"
"
large," and so on, as qualities observed in the several
classes of beautiful, good and large material things,
and then employing these propositions, if they
x
GENERAL INTRODUCTION

appeared to be sound, for the erection of higher


hypotheses. The point is that he made a new science
" " "
forms,"
out of a recognized theory of ideas or
which had come of reflecting on the quality predicated
"
when we say this man is good," and which postu
lates some sure reality behind the fleeting objects
" "
of sense. His hypothetical method, familiar to
mathematicians, attains its full reach and significance
in the Republic.
The Pythagoreans who appear in the intimate
scene of the Phaedo were accustomed to the theory
of ideas, and were a fit audience for the highest
reasonings of Socrates on the true nature of life and
the soul. For some years before the master's death
(399 B,c.) Plato, if not a member of their circle, was
often a spell-bound hearer of the
"
satyr." But
ordinary Athenians had other views of Socrates, which
varied according to their age and the extent of their
acquaintance with him. Aristophanes' burlesque in
the Clouds (423 b.c.) had left a common impression
not unlike what we have of the King of Laputa. Yet
the young men who had any frequent speech with
him in his later years, while they felt there was
something uncanny about him, found an irresistible
attraction in his simple manner, his humorous insight
into their ways and thoughts, and his fervent elo
quence on the principles of their actions and careers.
He kept no school, and took no fees ; he distrusted
the pretensions of the regular sophists, with whom
he was carelessly confounded ; moreover, he professed
xi
GENERAL INTRODUCTION
to have no knowledge himself, except so far as to
know that he was ignorant. The earliest Dialogues,
such as the Apology, Crito, Euihyphro, Charmides,
Laches, and Lysis, show the maimer In which he
performed his ministry. In rousing men, especially
those whose minds were fresh, to the need of knowing
themselves, he promoted the authority of the intellect,
the law of definite individual knowledge, above all
reason of state or tie of party ; and it is not sur
prising that his city, in the elfort of recovering her
political strength, decided to hush such an in
convenient voice. He must have foreseen his fate,
but he continued his work undeterred.
Though he seems, in his usual talk, to have
professed no positive doctrine, there were one or
two beliefs which he frequently declared. Virtue,
he said, is knowledge ; for each man's good is his
happiness, and once he knows it clearly, he needs
must choose to ensue it. Further, this knowledge
is innate in our minds, and we only need to have it
"
awakened and exercised by dialectic," or a system
atic course of question and answer. He also be
lieved his mission to be divinely ordained, and
asserted that his own actions were guided at times
by the prohibitions of a spiritual sign." He was
capable, as we find in the Symposium, of standing in
rapt meditation at any moment for some time, and
once for as long as twenty-four hours.
It is clear that, if he claimed no comprehensive
theory of existence, and although his ethical reliance
xii
GENERAL INTRODUCTION
on knowledge, if he never analysed it, leaves him in
a very crude stage of psychology, his logical and
mystical suggestions must have led his favourite
pupils a good way towards a new system of meta
physics. These intimates learnt, as they steeped
their minds in his, and felt the growth of a unique
alfection amid the glow of enlightenment, that
happiness may be elsewhere than in our dealings
with the material world, and that the mind has
prerogatives and duties far above the sphere of civic
life.
After the death of Socrates in 399, Plato spent
some twelve years in study and travel. For the
first part of this time he was perhaps at Megara,
where Eucleides, his fellow-student and friend, was
forming a school of dialectic. Here he may have
composed some of the six Dialogues already men
tioned as recording Socrates' activity in Athens.
Towards and probably beyond the end of this period,
in order to present the Socratic method in bolder
conflict with sophistic education, he wrote the
Protagoras, Meno, Euthydemus, and Gorgias. These
works show a much greater command of dramatic
and literary art, and a deeper interest in logic. The
last of them may well be later than S87, the year in
which, after an all but disastrous attempt to better
the mind of Dionysius of Syracuse, he returned to
Athens, and, now forty years of age, founded the
Academy ; where the memory of his master was to
be perpetuated by continuing and expanding the
xiii
GENERAL INTRODUCTION

Socratic discussions among the elect of the new


generation. The rivalry of this private college with
the professional school of Isocrates is discernible
in the subject and tone of the Gorgias. Plato
carried on the direction of the Academy till his
death, at eighty-one, in 316 ; save that half-way
through this period (367) he accepted the invitation
of his friend Dion to undertake the instruction of the
younger Dionysius at Syracuse. The elder tyrant
had been annoyed by the Socratic freedom of Plato's
talk : now it was a wayward youth who refused the
yoke of a systematic training. What that training
was like we see in the Republic, where true political
wisdom is approached by an arduous ascent through
mathematics, logic, and metaphysics. Plato returned,
with less hopes of obtaining the ideal ruler, to make
wonderful conquests in the realm of thought.
The Meno and Gorgias set forth the doctrine that
knowledge of right is latent in our minds : dialectic,
not the rhetoric of the schools, is the means of
eliciting it. The method, as Plato soon perceived,
must be long and difficult : but he felt a mystical
rapture over its certainty, which led him to picture
" "
the immutable forms as existing in a world of
their own. This feeling, and the conviction whence
it springs that knowledge is somehow possible, had
come to the front of his mind when he began to
know Socrates. Two brilliant compositions, the
Cratylus and Symposium, display the strength of the
conviction, and then, the noble fervour of the
xiv
GENERAL INTRODUCTION

feeling. In the latter of these works, the highest


powers of imaginative sympathy and eloquence are
summoned to unveil the sacred vision of absolute
beauty. The Phaedo turns the logical theory upon
the soul, which is seen to enjoy, when freed from
the body, familiar cognition of the eternal types
of being. Here Orphic dogma lends its aid to the
Socratic search for knowledge, while we behold an
inspiring picture of the philosopher in his hour of
death.
With increasing confidence in himself as the
successor of Socrates, Plato next undertook, in the
Republic, to show the master meeting his own un
satisfied queries on education and politics. We read
" "
now of a form of good to which all thought and
action aspire, and which, contemplated in itself, will
explain not merely why justice is better than in
justice, but the meaning and aim of everything.
In order that man may be fully understood, we are
" writ "
to view him large in the organization of an
ideal state. The scheme of description opens out
into many subsidiary topics, including three great
proposals already known to Greece, the abolition of
private property, the community of women and
children, and the civic equality of the sexes. But
the central subject is the preparation of the philo
sopher, through a series of ancillary sciences, for
dialectic ; so that, once possessed of the supreme
truth, he may have light for directing his fellow-men.
As in the Phaedo, the spell of mythical revelation is
XV
GENERAL INTRODUCTION

brought to enhance the discourse of reason. The


Phaedrus takes up the subject of rhetoric, to lead us
"
allegorically into the realm of ideas," and thence to
point out a new rhetoric, worthy of the well-trained
dialectician. We get also a glimpse of the philo
sopher's duty of investigating the mutual relations
of the " forms " to which his study of particular
things has led him.
A closer interest in logical method, appearing
through his delight in imaginative construction, is
one distinctive mark of this middle stage in Plato's
teaching. As he passes to the next two Dialogues,
the Theaetetus and Parmenides, he puts olf the
aesthetic rapture, and considers the ideas as cate
gories of thought which require co-ordination. The
discussion of knowledge in the former makes it
evident that the Academy was now the meeting-
place of vigorous minds, some of which were eager
to urge or hear refuted the doctrines they had
learnt from other schools of thought ; while the
arguments are conducted with a critical caution
very dilferent from the brilliant and often hasty
zeal of Socrates. The Parmenides corrects an actual
or possible misconception of the theory of ideas in
the domain of logic, showing perhaps how Aristotle,
now a youthful disciple of Plato, found fault with
the theory as he understood it. The forms are
viewed in the light of the necessities of thought :
knowledge is to be attained by a careful practice
which will raise our minds to the vision of all parti
xvi
GENERAL INTRODUCTION

culars in their rightly distinguished and connected


classes.
Plato is here at work on his own great problem :
If what we know is a single permanent law under
which a multitude of things are ranged, what is the
link between the one and the many ? The Sophist
contains some of his ripest thought on this increas
ingly urgent question his confident advance beyond
:

Socratic teaching is indicated by the literary form,


which hardly disguises the continuous exposition of
a lecture. We observe an attention to physical
science, the association of soul, motion, and existence,
and the comparative study of being and not-being.
The Politicus returns to the topic of state-government,
and carries on the process of acquiring perfect
notions of reality by the classification of things.
see in the absolute
" mean "
Perhaps we should
which is posited as the standard of all arts, business,
and conduct, a contribution from Aristotle. The
Philebus, in dealing with pleasure and knowledge,
dwells further on the correct division and classifica
tion required if our reason, as it surely must, is to
apprehend truth. The method is becoming more
thorough and more complex, and Plato's hope of
bringing it to completion is more remote. But he is
gaining a clearer insight into the problem of unity
and plurality.
The magnificent myth of the Timaeus, related
by a Pythagorean, describes the structure of the
universe, so as to show how the One manifests
xvii
GENERAL INTRODUCTION

itself as the
Many. We have here the latest
reflections of Plato on space, time, soul, and many
physical matters. In the lengthy treatise of the
Laws he addresses himself to the final duty of the
philosopher as announced in the Republic : a long
habituation to abstract thought will qualify rather
than disqualify him for the practical regulation of
public and private alfairs. Attention is fixed once
more on soul, as the energy of the world and the
vehicle of our sovereign reason.
Thus Plato maintains the fixity of the objects of
knowledge in a great variety of studies, which enlarge
the compass of Socrates' teaching till it embraces
enough material for complete systems of logic and
metaphysics. How far these systems were actually
worked out in the discussions of the Academy we can
only surmise from the Dialogues themselves and
a careful comparison of Aristotle ; whose writings,
however, have come down to us in a much less
perfect state. But it seems probable that, to the
end, Plato was too fertile in thought to rest content
with one authoritative body of doctrine. We may
be able to detect in the Timaeus a tendency to
view numbers as the real principles of things ; and
we may conjecture a late-found interest in the
physical complexion of the world. As a true artist,
with a keen sense of the beauty and stir of life,
Plato had this interest, in a notable degree, through
out ; but in speaking of his enthusiasm for science
we must regard him rather as a great inventor of
xviii
GENERAL INTRODUCTION
sciences than as what we should now call a scientist.
This is giving him a splendid name, which few men
have earned. Some of his inventions may be un
realizable, but it is hard to find one that is certainly
futile. There are flaws in his arguments : to state
them clearly and fairly is to win the privilege of
taking part in a discussion at the Academy.
W. R. M. Lamb.

[Nore. Each of the Dialogues is a self-contained whole.


The order in which they have been meniioned in this Iniroduc
tion is that which agrees best in the main with modern views
of Plato's mental progress, though the succession in some
instances is uncertain.}

xix
BIBLIOGRAPHY
The following give useful accounts of Socratic and
Platonic thought :
T. Gomperz : The Greek Thinkers, vols. ii. and iii. Murray,
1901-5.
W. Lutoslawski The : Origin and Growth of Plato's Logic.
Longmans, 1897.
R. L. Nettleship : Philosophic Lectures and Remains. 2 vols.
Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1901.
D. G. Ritchie : Plato. T. and T. Clark, 1902.
J. A. Stewart : The Myihs of Plato. Macmillan, 1905.
Pla to's Doctrine of Ideas. Clarendon Press,
1909.
A. E. Taylor : Plato. Constable, 1911.
A. M. Adam : Plaio : Moral and Political Ideals. Camb.
Univ. Press, 1913.
H. Jackson : Presocraiics, Socrates and the Minor Socratics,
Plato and the Old Academy (Cambridge Companion to
Greek Studies). Camb. Univ. Press, 1905.

The following are important editions :


J. Adam : The Republic. 2 vols. Camb. Univ. Press, 1902.
W. H. Thompson : The Phaedrus. Bell, 1868.
The Gorgias. Bell, 1871.
R. D. Archer.Hind : The Phaedo. Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1894.
The Timaeus. Macmillan, 1888.
J. Burnet: The Phaedo. Clarendon Press, 1911.
L. Campbell : The Theaetetus. Clarendon Press, 1883.
The Sophistes and Poliiicus. Clarendon Press,
1867.
E. S. Thompson : The Meno. Macmillan, 1901.

xx
THE STATESMAN
INTRODUCTION TO THE STATESMAN

The Statesman or Politiciis is in form a continuation


of The Sophist. Socrates, Theodoras, the Eleatic
Stranger, and Theaetetus meet again, and the Stranger
is ready to proceed to discuss the Statesman as he
had discussed the Sophist on the previous day.
As in the Theaetetus and The Sophist, other hearers
are supposed to he present, and one of them, the
young Socrates, now takes the place of Theaetetus
as interlocutor. But in this dialogue, as in The
Sophist, the dramatic form is hardly more than a
convention. The Stranger delivers a thinly disguised
lecture.
The process of acquiring knowledge of reality by
classification of things by means of division is carried
on here, as in The Sophist, and the importance of the
dialectic method is emphasized. The doctrine that
virtue and art find their standard in the absolute
mean appears here for the first time, foreshadowing
the teachings of Aristotle.
The subject of the dialogue, apart from its insist
ence upon method, is the State, quite as much as
the Statesman. Plato maintains that the King or
the Statesman may do good to the citizens against
their will, even by violence, at least in theory ; but
2
INTRODUCTION TO THE STATESMAN
in the world as it is, he finds three chief kinds of
government, by one ruler, by the few, and by the
many. A divine and perfect ruler might rule without
laws, but human governments can be only imitations
of the divine ; in them, therefore, laws are necessary.
The best government is found to be a monarchy
with laws ; the government of the few is inter
mediate ; but democracy has little power for good
or ill ; it is therefore the least good of lawful
governments and the least bad of governments
without law.
The long mythical tale of the reversed motion of
the world and the consequent reversal of the processes
of life contains serious teachings concerning the
relations of God to the universe and to man, but is
not an attempt to solve all the dilficulties that arise
in connexion therewith. The division of property,
as it appears in the state, into classes is original
and illuminating. This dialogue, like The Sophist,
is rather hard rending, but is an important part of
the body of Platonic doctrine.
IIOAITIK02
[h nEPI BA2IAEIA2, AOriK02]

St. II TA TOT AIAAOPOT IIPOSfillA


257
2nKPATH2, 0EOAnPO2, HEN02, 2nKPATH2 O NEnTEP02

I. 2n. TH TroXXrjv xdpiv 6cf>elXw ooi rrjs Oeairrj-


rov yvcoploecos , d> Qe68cope, dp.a wai rrjs rov evov.
0EO. Ta^a 8e, TcoKpares, 6cf>eiXrjoeis ravrrjs
co

rpiTrXaolav, eTreiSdv rov re TroXiriK6v dTrepydoa>vral


ctoi nal rov cf>iXoooifaov.
2n.TZlev ovrco rovro, d> cf>lXe Qeo8cope, cf>rjoop.ev
oiKrjKoores elvai rov Trepl Xoyiop,ovs /cai rd yecop.e-
rpiKa Kpariorov;
B EO. Hcos, d> ^d>Kpares;
2n. Tuw aVSpaiv eKaorov devros1 rrjs dias,
107j?
0" rfj rip.fj TrXeov aXXrjXcov dcf>eoraoiv rj Kara rrjv
dvaXoylav rrjv rrjs vp,erepas rexvrjs.
Eu ye rov r)p.erepov deov,
vrj

0EO.
cL

^jcoKpares,
rov "Ap.p.cova /cai Si/caico?, /cai Trdvv p.ev ovv
eivros Heindorf 0^xres BT.
1

:
4
THE STATESMAN
[or ON KINGSHIP; logical]

CHARACTERS
Socrates, Th eodorus, the Stranger, the Younger
Socrates

soc. Really I am greatly indebted to you, Theo-


dorus, for ray acquaintance with Theaetetus and with
the Stranger, too.
tiieo. Presently, Socrates, you will be three times
as much indebted, when they have worked out the
statesman and the philosopher for you.
soc. Indeed ! My dear T heodorus, can I believe
my ears ? Were those really the words of the great
calculator and geometrician ?
theo. Why, what do you mean, Socrates ?
soc. When you rated sophist, statesman, and
philosopher at the same value, though they are
farther apart in worth than your mathematical
proportion can express.
theo. By Amnion, our special divinity,1 that is a
good hit, Socrates ; evidently you haven't forgotten
1
Theodoras was from Cyrene, not far from the oasis of
Am mon.
5
PLATO

p.vrjp.oviKa>s eTreTrX^ds p.oi to Trepl tovs Xoyiop.ovs


dp.dprrjp.a. Kai oe p.ev dvrl tovtcov els avdis
fiereipif ov S' rjp.iv, eve, p,rj8ap.cos dTroKdp.rjs
co

Xapi^6p.evos, dXX' *v$> e"re tov ttoXitiKov dvSpa


C Trporepov elVe toV cf>iXooocf>ov Trpoaipel, Trpo-
eX6p,evosoieeXde.
HE. Tavr',
c5 Qeoocope, Trovrrriov, eTreinep aTra

ye1 eyKexeiprjKapev, Kal ovK dTroorariov Trplv dv


avrcov Trpos to reXos eXdcop,ev. dXXd yap Trepl
Qeairrjrov rovoe tI xprj 8pdv p,e;
0EO. Tov Tr6/31 ;
HE.AiavaTravoiOfiev avrov p.eraXajiovres avrov
tov ovyyvp.vaorrjv rovSe Sco/cparij; r) tto>s ovp.-
fiovXeveis ;
0EO.
KaddTrep siTres, p.eraXdp.ftavem veco yap
ovte paov oloerov Trdvra ttovov dvaTravop.evco .
D sn. Koi p.rjv Kivovveverov, co eve, dp.cf>co Trodev
ep.ol vyyeveiav exeiv rivd. tov p,ev ye ovv vp.els
Kara rrjv rov TrpoacoTrov cf>volv op.oiov ip.ol d>ai,veodoll
cf>are, tov 8' rjp.lv rj KXtjois 6p.d>vvp.os ovoa Kal rj
258 Trpooprjois Trape^eral riva olKeiorrjra. Sel or) tovs
ye vyyevels rjp.as del Trpodvp.cos Sid Xoycov dvayvco-
pl^eiv. Qeairr^ro> p,ev ovv avros tc ovvepua %0e?
Sia Xoya>v Kal vvv aKrjKoa dTroKpivop.evov, HcoKpd-
tovs ov8erepa. Sel 8e oKeifiaodai Kal tovtov.
oe
ep.ol p.ev ovv els avdis, ool Se vvv dTroKpiveodco.
HE. lavr eorai. cd JUcoKpares, aKoveis orj Zico-
Kparovs;
NE02 sn. Nai.
HE. Yivyxcopels oSv ols Xeyei;
NE. 2n. Hdvv p.ev ovv.
1
ye] re BT.
6
THE STATESMAN
your mathematics, and you are quite right in finding
fault with my bad arithmetic. I will get even with
you at some other time ; but now, Stranger, I turn
to you. Do not grow tired of being kind to us, but
go on and tell us about the statesman or the
philosopher, whichever you prefer to take first.
Str. That is the thing to do, Theodorus, since we
have once begun, and we must not stop until we
have finished with them. But what shall I do about
Theaetetus here ?
theo. In what respect ?
sth. Shall we give him a rest and take his school
mate here, the young Socrates, in Ins place ? What
is your advice ?
theo. Make the change as you suggest. They
are young, and if they have a chance to rest by turns,
they will bear any labour better.
soc. And besides, Stranger, it seems to me that
they are both related to me after a fashion ; one of
them anyhow, as you say, looks like me in his cast of
countenance, and the other has the same name and
appellation, which implies some sort of kinship. Of
course we ought always to be eager to get acquainted
with our relatives by debating with them. Now I
myself had an argument with Theaetetus yesterday
and have been listening to his answers just now, but
I do not know Socrates in either way and must
examine him, too. But let him reply to you now ;
my turn will come by and by.
str. Very well ; Socrates, do you hear what
Socrates says ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. And do you agree ?
y. soc. Certainly.
7
PLATO

B HE. Ov tol oa KcoXveiv cfxuverai, Sel Se locos


en rjrrov rdp.d oiaKcoAveiv. dAAd p,erd rov

8rj
oocf>iorrjv dvayKalov cos e/ioi ^aiverai, tot Tr0A1ti-

,
.,cov dvopa1 Sia^rjrelv vcx>v /ccu Trorepov
p.oi Ae'ye
rcov imorrjp.ovcov riv r)p.lv Kal rovrov dereov,

rj
TrW?;
ne. 2n. 0vro>s.
2. He. Td? iTr lorrj p.as dpa SiaX-qTrreov, cooTrep
TjvUCcl rov Trporepov eoKoTrovp.ev;
ne. sn. Td^' dv.
Kara rai'rov ye,
S1j

HE. Oi) tiev co HcjKpares,


cpalvercll cxoi rp,rjp.a.
NE. sn. Ti p.Tp>;
He. Kar' aAAo.
C

NE. 2n. "Eoi/ce' ye.


HE.Trjv ovv TroXiriKr[v drpaTrov Trfj ris dvevprj-
oei2 Sel yap avrrjv dvevpeiv, Kal xcopls dcf>eXovras
;

dTro rd>v dXXcov I8eav avrfj p.lav eTriocf>payloaodai,


Kal rai? dAAai? eKrporrals ev dXXo eloos eTn.orjp.rjva-
p,evovs Trdoas ras eTriorrjp.asovoas ovo eiorj co?
oiavorjdrjvai rrjv iftvxrjv rjp.cov Troirjoai.
NE. 2n. Tout' 1jSrj oov, olp.ai, to epyov, co
eve, dAA' ovK ep.6v ylyverai.
D Aei ye /iijv, HcoKpares, avro elvai Kal
c5

HE.
oov, orav ep.cf>aves rjp.lv yivqrai.
ne. sn.KaAco? elTres.
HE. TAp' ovv ovK dpidp,rjriKrj p,ev Kal rives erepai
ravrrj ovyyeveis rixvai ifiiXal ro>v Trpdecov eloi, to
Se yvoHvai Trapeoxovro p.ovov;
NE. 2n. "Eoriv outoo?.
Tdv TrokiriKbv W Tro\inKov tov uvdpa BT.
1

divSpa
:

dveup^aei| hv evpwv dv eiipriaei T.


2

B
:
8
THE STATESMAN
stb. There seems to be no objection on your part,
and I suppose there should be still less on mine.
Well, then, after the sophist, I think it is our next
duty to seek for the statesman ; so please tell me :
should we rank him also among those who have a
science, or not ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. Must the sciences, then, be divided as when
we were examining the sophist ?
y. soc. Perhaps.
sTR. In that case, Socrates, I think the division
will not be along the same lines.
Y. soc. How will it be ?
str. Along other lines.
y. soc. Very likely.
str. Where, then, shall we find the statesman's
path ?For we must find it, separate it from the
rest, and imprint upon it the seal of a single class ;
then we must set the mark of another single class
upon all the other paths that lead away from this,
and make our soul conceive of all sciences as of two
classes.1
y. soc. This, Stranger, is now your alfair, I think,
not mine.
str. And yet, Socrates, it must be your alfair, too,
when we have found the path.
y. soc. Quite true.
str. Are not arithmetic and certain other kindred
arts pure sciences, without regard to practical
application, which merely furnish knowledge ?

y. soc. Yes, they are.


1
i.e. one class is to be separated and then all the rest
are to be marked as one other class the familiar division
into two parts.
9
PLATO

HE. Ai Se ye Trepl teKtoviKtjv a8 Kal ovp.Traoav


xeipovpylav cboTrep ev rai? evovoav
'npdeoiv
V] ovp.cf>vrov rrjv eTriorrjp.rjv KeKrrjvrai, Kal ovvaTro-
reXovai ta yiyv6p.eva Cm' avtcov ocoj,iara Trpore-
pov ovK ovra.
ne. sn. T* p.rjv;
HE. Tavrjj tolvvv ovp.Traoas imor,np.a? Sialpel,
rr]v p.ev TrpaKriKrjv Trpooenrcov, rrjv oe p.6vov yvco-
oriKrjv.
NE. 2n. "Eorco ooi ravd' co? /iias emorrjp.rjs rrjs
oArjs eiorj ovo.
HE. Horspov ovv tov ttoXitiKov Kal BaoiXea Kal
SeoTrorrjv Kal er' oiKovop.ov drjoop,ev d>s ev Travra
ravra Trpooayopevovres, r) rooavras rexvas avras
elvai cf>cop.ev, ooaTrep ovop.ara epprfirj; plaXXov Sc
p.oi oevpo eTrov.
ne. sn. Ilrj;
259 HE. Tfjoe' el tco n? t&v orjp.ooievovrcov larpd>v
iKavos vp.fiovXeveiv loianevcov avros, ap' ovK
dvayKalov avrco Trpooayopeveodai rovvop.a rrjs
rexvrjs ravrov oTrep co ovp.jiovXevei ;
NE. 7Xi. Nai.
HE. Tl S'; ootis jiaoiXevovri xd>pas avSpi. Trap-
aiveiv oeivos ISuorrjs cov avros, ap' ov cf>rjoop.ev
exeiv avrov rrjv emorrjp,rjv rjv e'Sei tov dpxovra avrov
KeKrrjodai; %

ne. 2n. Q>rjoop.ev.


B HE. 'AAAd p.rjv ij ye dXrjdivov fiaoiXecos fiaoiXiKrj;
ne. sn. Nai'.
HE. "Tavrrjv oe 6 KeKrrjp.evos ovK, dvre dpxcov
dvre loicorrjs d>v rvyxavrj, Travrcos Kara ye rqv
rexvrjv avrrjv fiaoiXiKos opdcos Trpooprjdrjoerai ;
10
THE STATESMAN
str. But the science possessed by the arts relating
to carpentering and to handicraft in general is
inherent in their application, and with its aid they
create objects which did not previously exist.
y. soc. To be sure.
str. In this way, then, divide all science into two
parts, calling the one practical, and the other purely
intellectual.
y. soc. Let us assume that all science is one and
that these are its two forms.
str. Shall we then assume that the statesman,
king, master, and householder too, for that matter,
are all one, to be grouped under one title, or shall
we say that there are as many arts as names ? But
let me rather help you to understand in this way.
Y. soc. In what way ?
str. By this example : If anyone, though himself
in private station, is able to advise one of the public
physicians, must not his art be called by the same
name as that of the man whom he advises ?
Y. soc. Yes.
str. Well, then, if a man who is himself in private
station is wise enough to advise him who is king
of a country, shall we not say that he has the science
which the ruler himself ought to possess ?
Y. soc. We shall.
str. But certainly the science of a true king is
kingly science ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. And will not he who this science,
possesses
whether he happen to be a ruler or a private citizen,
rightly be called " kingly," when considered purely
with reference to his art ?

11
PLATO

ne. 2n. Ai/caiov yovv.


HE. Kai p.rjv oiKovop.os ye Kal SeoTrorrjs
ravrov.
ne. 2n. Tl p,rjv;
HE. Ti Si; p,eydXrjs oxrjua oiK.qoecos rj opuKpds
aS ttoXccds oyKos p.d>v ri Tr/30? u.pxW Sioloerov ;
ne. 2n. Oi5SeV.

8rj
C HE. Oi5/cow, SieoKoTrovueda, cf>avepov
6 vvv
cos eTriorrjp.rj p.la Trepi Travr' eorl ravra, ravrrjv
8e eire fiaoiXiKrjv eire TroAiri/cr)v eire oiKovop.iKrjv
tls oVo/iaei, urjSev avrcp Siacf>epd>p.eda.
NE. 2n. Ti yap;
HE.'AAAo jirjv roSe ye SrjXov, d>s fiaoiXevs
3.

aTras xepoi Kai ivuTravri tco ocop.ari op.lKp' drra


els to Karixeiv ttjv apx^v Swarai Trpos ttjv rrjs
rfivxrjs ovveoiv Kal pd>prqv.
ne. 2n. ArjXov.
8rj

HE. Trjs yvcooriKrjs uaXXov rfjs xelpo-


f)

re^vi/c^? wai oXcos TrpaKriKrjs fiovXei tov /JaoiAe'a


D

cf>couev oiKeiorepov elvai;


ne. 2n. Ti jxrjv;
HE. Twv apa TroXiriKrjv Kal ttoXitiKov Kal jiaoi-
XlKtjv Kal fiaoiXiKov els ravrov cos ev Trdvra raSra
vvdrja,op,ev
;

NE. sn. ArjXov.


HE. OvKovv Tropevolp.ed' av erjs, uera raura
el

rrjv yvcooriKyjv SiopCCplp,eda


;

ne. 2n. IlaVu ye.


tov vovv, dv apa ev aurfl riva
ST)

HE. Ilpdae^e
Sia^vTjv1 Karavorjocop.ev.
ne. 2n. Opae Trolav.
D BT erased in T).
(7
1

diacpvriv 5iai^uYV
:

12
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. At least he has a right to be.
str. And surely the householder and the master
of a family are the same.
y. soc. Yes, of course.
str. Well, so far as government is concerned, is
there any difference between the grandeur of a large
house and the majesty of a small state ?
y. soc. No.
str. Then for the point we were just discussing,
as
it is clear that all these are the objects of one
science, and whether a man calls this the art of
kingship or statesmanship or householding, let us
not quarrel with him.
y. soc. By no means.
str. But this is plain, that any king can do little
with his hands or his whole body toward holding his
position, compared with what he can do with the
sagacity and strength of his soul.
y. soc. Yes, that is plain.
str. Shall we say, then, that the king is more
akin to the intellectual than to the manual or the
practical in general ?
y. soc. Certainly.
str. Shall we, therefore, put all these together as
one the political art and the statesman, the royal
art and the king ?
y. soc. Obviously.
str. Then we should be proceeding in due order
if we should next divide intellectual science ?
y. soc. Certainly.
str. Now pay attention to see if we can perceive
any natural line of cleavage in it.
y. soc. Tell us of what sort it is.

13
PLATO

E HE. ToidVSe. Aoyiori/0j ttov tis rjp.iv rjv


rexvv
NE. 2n. Nai.
HE. Tcov yvcooriKQv ye, of/iai, TravrdTraoi re^-
vcov .

ne. 2n. Ilai? S' ov;


HE. IV0U07j Se XoyioriKrj rqv eV rois dpidp.ois
Siacf>opdv p.d>v ti ttXiov epyov Scooop.ev r) rd yvuo-
odevra Kplvai;
NE. 2n. Ti /iTJv;
HE. Kai ya./3 dpxireKrcov ye Tra? ou/c ai5rds epya-
ri/co? dAAd ipyarcov dpxcov.
ne. 2n. Nai.
HE. Ilape^d/ievd? ye' Trou yvcooiv dAA' oi) ^61/5"
oupyiW.
NE. 2n. Outco?.
yvw
8rj

260 HE.AiKalcos /iere^eiv dV Ae'yoiro rrjs


crriKrjs eVicmj/irj?.
ne. 2n. IldVu ye.
HE. ye, oi/iai, TrpoorjKei Kplvavri p.rj
Touto> Se'

reXos e^eiv /xrjS' aTrrjXXdxdai, KaddTrep Xoyio-rrjs


6

aTrrjXXaKro, Trpoordrreiv Se e/cdaroi? toov ipyarcov


to ye Trp6ocf>opov, ecos dv aTrepydoo>vrai to Trpoo-
rO)(B4v.
ne. 2n. 'Opdcos.
HE. Ou/cow yvcooriKal p.ev ai re roiavrai vfx-
Traoai /cai c5Trdoai vveTrovrai rjj XoyioriKfj, Kploei
Se /cai emraei Siacf>eperov dXXrjXoiv tovtco rdj
B

yeVTj;
ne. 2n. OaiVeooW.
TAp' ow
el

HE. ovpnrdorjs tTJs yvcooriKr)s


to p.kv imraKriKov p,epos, to Se KpiriKov Si-
14
,
THE STATESMAN
sth. Of this sort. We recognized ;i sort of art of
calculation.
y. soc. Yes.
str. It certainly one of the
is,
suppose, most

I
intellectual arts.
y. soc. Of course.
str. And shall we grant to the art of calculation,
when found out the dilference between
has
it

numbers, any further function than that of passing


judgement on them when found out?
y. soc. No, certainly not.
str. Every architect, too, ruler of workmen,
is
a
not a workman himself.
y. soc. Yes.
str. As supplying knowledge, not manual labour.
y. soc. True.
str. So he may fairly be said to participate in
intellectual science.
y. soc. Certainly.
str. But it is his business, suppose, not to puss
it I

judgement and be done with and go away, as the


calculator did, but to give each of the workmen the
proper orders, until they have finished their appointed
task.
y. soc. You are right.
str. Then all such sciences, and all those that
are in the class with calculating, are alike intellectual
sciences, but these two classes dilfer from one another
in the matter of judging and commanding. Am
right
I

Y. soc. think so.


I

str. Then we bisected intellectual science


if

as a
whole and called one part the commanding and the

15
PLATO

aipovp.evoi Trpooenroip.ev, ep.p.eXcos av cf>alp,ev Si-


rjprjodai;
NE. 2n. Kara ye rrjv ef.irjv 86av.
HE. 'AAAo p.ijv tois ye Koivfj tl Trpdrrovoiv
ayarnqrov 6p.ovoelv.
NE. sn. flcD? 8' ov;
HE. Tovtov tolvvv p.expiTrep av avrol Koivcovcop,ev ,
eareov rd ye tcov dXXcov Soao/iara xalpeiv.
ne. sn. Ti p.rjv;
C 4, 2E, Qepe 8rj, tovtoiv toiv1 rexvaiv rjpuv
tov fiaoiXiKov ev Trorepa dereov; dp' ev rfj KpiriKrj,
KaddTrep rivd dearrjv, rj p.aXXov rrjs imraKriKrjs
u'>s dvra avrov rij(vrjs drjoop.ev, oeoTro^ovrd ye;
NE. 2n. Ilul? yap ov p.aXXov ;
8rj

HE. Trjv emraKriKrjv rexvrjv TrdXiv av elrj


deareov Kal /ioi So/cei rrj8e tttj,
el

Trrj SieorrjKev.
KadaTrep rixvrj rrjs tcov avrorrcoXcov
tcov KaTrrjXiov
rj

Sicopiorai rexvrjs, Kal to fiaoiXiKov yevos eoiKea


I)

aTr6 tov tcov KrjpvKcov yevovs dcf>coplodai.


ne. sn. Ilco?;
HE. YlcoXrjdevra ttov
Trporepov epya dXXorpia
TrapaSexdp.evoi 8evrepov TrcoXovoi TrdXiv ol KaTrrjXoi.
NE. 2n. Yldvv p.ev ovv.
HE.OvKovv Kal to KrjpvKiKov cf>vXov emraxdevr'
dXXorpia2 vorjp.ara TrapaSex6p,evov avr6 Sevrepov
eTrirarr6i TraXiv irepois,
NE. 2n. 'AXrjdeorara.
HE. Ti oSv; els ravrov p.lop.ev fiaoiXiKrjv eppvq-
vevriKrj, KeXevorucrj, p.avriKfj, KrjpvKiKjj, Kal ttoX-
E

Xais irepais tovtcov rexvais ovyyeveoiv, al oVp.-


tovtoiv tolv] ravraiv ralv BT.
1

(Trirax6iv rdXX6Tpia BT.


2

16
THE STATESMAN
other the judging part, might we say we had made
a litting division ?
Y. soc. Yes, in my opinion.
str. And surely when men are doing anything in
common it is pleasant for them to agree.
y. soc. Of course it is.
str. On this point, then, so long as we ourselves
are in agreement, we need not bother about the
opinions of others.
y. soc. Of course not.
str. Now to which of these two classes is the
kingly man to be assigned ? Shall we assign him to
the art of judging, as a kind of spectator, or rather
to the art of commanding, inasmuch as he is a rider ?
y. soc. Rather to the latter, of course.
'
str. Then once more we must see whether the
art of command falls into two divisions. It seems
to me that it does, and I think there is much the
same distinction between the kingly class and the
class of heralds as between the art of men who sell
what they themselves produce and that of retail
dealers.
y, soc. How so ?
str. Retail dealers receive and sell over again the
productions of others, which have generally been
sold before.
y. soc. Certainly.
str. And in like manner heralds receive the
purposes of others in the form of orders, and then
give the orders a second time to others.
y. soc. Very true.
str. Shall we, then, join the art of the king in
the same class with the art of the interpreter, the
boatswain, the prophet, the herald, and many other
vol. in c 17
PLATO

Travai to y' emrarreiv exovoiv; T) fiovXei, KaddTrep


fjKd^op.ev vvv STj, Kal rovvop.a TrapeiKdocop,ev .
iTrei8rj Kal oxe8ov olvcovvf>lov ov rvyxdvei to tajv
aVreTrlrCLKTO>v yevoS, Kal TCiVTr] TOiVTCi BlcXLUJJ.eOa,
to p.kv tGjv ftaoiXecov yevos els rrjV avremraKriKrjv
devres, tov Se dXXov Travros dp.eXrjoavres , dvop.a
erepov avrols Trapaxcoprjoavres deodai rivd; tov
yap dpxovros eveKa rjp.lv rj p.edoSos Tp/ dXX' oi^i
261 tov ivavriov.
ne. 2n. Yldvv p.ev ovv.
5, HE. OvKovv eTreiSrj tovto p.erplcos dcf>eorrjKev
aTr' eKelvcov, dXXorpiorrjri Siopiodev Tr736? oiKeiorrjra,
tovto avro TrdXiv av Siaipelv dvayKalov, el riva
rop,rjv etl exop\ev vTreiKovoav iv tovtco;
ne. sn. Ilaro ye.
HE. Kai p.rjv cf>aivop.eda exeiv
'
dXX' eTraKo-
Xovdcov ovvrep.ve.
ne. sn. Il rj;
HE. Ildvras dv apxpvras Siavor)dcop.ev
oTrooovs
emrdei Trpooxpcop,evovs dp' oix evpr]oop,ev yeve-
B oecos tivos eveKa Trpoorarrovras ;
ne. sn. Ylcos S' ov;
HE. Kai p,rjv ra ye1 yiyvop.eva Trdvra Slxa Sia-
Xafielv ov TravraTraoi xaXeTrov.
ne. 2n. Ylfj;
HE. Td p.ev difivxa avrcov iori ttov vp.Trdvrcov,
ra S' ep.ifivxa.
ne. sn. Ncu.
HE. Tovtois 8e ye avrols to tov yvcooriKov p.epos
emraKriKov ov, elTrep jiovXop,eda rep.veiv, rep.ovp.ev.
ne. sn. Kara rl;
1
76 Stephanus : re I5T.
18
THE STATESMAN
kindred arts, all of which involve giving orders ? Or,
as we just now made a comparison of functions, shall
we now by comparison make a name also since the
class of those who issue orders of their own is virtu
ally nameless and assign kings to the science
of giving orders of one's own, disregarding all the
rest and leaving to someone else the task of naming
them ? For the object of our present quest is the
ruler, not his opposite.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. Then since a reasonable distinction between
this class and the rest has been made, by distinguish
ing the commands given as one's own or another's,
shall we again divide this class, if there is in it any
further line of section ?
y. soc. Certainly.
str. I think there is one ; please help me in
making the section.
y. soc. On what line ?
str. Take the case of all those whom we conceive
of as rulers who give commands : shall we not find
that they all issue commands for the sake of producing
something ?
y. soc. Of course.
str. Furthermore it is not at all difficult to divide
all that is produced into two classes.
y. soc. How ?
str. Of the whole class, some have life and others
have no life.
y. soc. Yes.
str. And on these same lines we may, if we like,
make a division of the part of intellectual science
which commands.
y. soc. In what way ?

19
PLATO

HE. To p.ev em rals tcov difivxcov yeveoeoiv av-


tov rdrrovres,1 to 8' em rais rcov2 ifufivxcuv
C /cai Siaipijoerai Si'^a.
Trav ovtcos rjSrj
ne. sn. YlavraTraoi ye.
HE. To p.ev tolvvv avrcov TrapaXlTrcop.ev, to S'
avaXdficop.ev , dvaXafi6vres Se p.epiocop.eda els Svo to
ovpnrav.
ne. Sn. Aeyeis S' avrolv dvaXrjTrreov elvai tto-
repov;
HE. Yldvto>s Trov ro Tr6/31 ra cSa 6Trlra/Cn/C0 v .
8rj

ov yap to ye rrjs fiaaiXiKrjs emorrjp.rjs eorl Ttote


tcov difivxcov emorarovv olov dpxireKroviKov, dXXd
,
yevvaiorepov ev tois uJoi? /cai TrepX avra ravra
rrjv Svvap.iv del KeKrtjp.evov
D

ne. sn. 'Opdcos.


HE. irjv
ye p,rjv tcov ^cocov yeveoiv /cai rpocf>rjv
trjv p.ev tis dv iSoi p.ovorpocf>lav ovoav, ttjv 8e
Koivrjv tcov ev rai? dyeXais dpep.p.arcov empLeXeiav.
ne. an. 'Opdcos.
HE. 'AAA' ov pAjv tov ye ttoXltlKov evprjoop.ev
lSiorpocf>ov cooTrep fiorjXarrjv riva
,3

iTrTroKop.ov,
rj

dXX' ITrTrocf>opftco re /cai fiowf>opjico p.aXXov Trpoo-


eoiKora.
OaiVerai ye
8rj

NE. 2n. prjdev vvv.


Ylorepov ovv rrjs trjv tcov vp-
E

HE. ^coorpocf>las
ttoXXcov Koivrjv rpocf>rjv dyeXaiorpo^lav Koivo-
rj

rpocf>iKrjv riva dvop.d^op,ev


;

ne. sn. 'OTrorepov oiv ev tco Xoyco vp.jialvrj


.
6.

HE. KaAcS? ye, co Sco/cpare?, /caV Siacf>vXd-


rdcaovrcs BT.
1

tI Tciis tCiv D, Stephanas tCiv BT.


2

eTri
e

Idiorpdipov D IdidrpoTrov BT.


3

20
THE STATESMAN
str. By assigning one part of it to the production
of lifeless, the other to that of living objects ; and
in this way the whole will be divided into two
parts.
Y. soc. Certainly.
str. Let us then leave one half and take up the
other, and then let us divide that entire half into
two parts.
y. soc. Which half shall we take up ?
str. That which issues commands relating to
living objects, assuredly. For certainly the science
of the king is not, like that of the architect, one
which supervises lifeless objects ; it is a nobler
science, since it exercises its power among living
beings and in relation to them alone.
y. soc. True.
str. Now you may notice that the breeding and
nurture of living beings is sometimes the nurture of
a single animal and sometimes the common care of
creatures in droves.
y. soc. True.
str. But we shall find that the statesman is not
one who tends a single creature, like the driver of a
single ox or the groom who tends a horse ; he has
more resemblance to a man who tends a herd of
cattle or a drove of horses.
y. soc. That seems to be true, now that you
mention it.
str. Shall we call the art of caring for many living
creatures the art of tending a herd or something like
community management ?
y. soc. Whichever we happen to say.
str. Good, Socrates ! If you preserve this attitude

',21
PLATO

rjs to p.rj oTrov8d^eiv iTrl tols 6v6p.aoi, TrXovoicore-


pos els to yrjpas dvacf>avrjoei cf>povrjoecos . vvv 8e
tovto p,ev, KaddTrep SiaKeXevei, Trovrjreov tt)v 8e
-
a.y^\a.ioTpocj>iKrjv dp' evvoeis ,nfj tls BlBujJlov a,Tro
262 4>rjvas to tyrovp.evov ev SiTrXaoloioi1 ta vvv iv
tols rjp.loeoiv els rore Troirjoei ^rjreiodai ;
ne. 2n. Ylpodvp,rjoop.ai. Kal p.oi SoKel tcov
p,ev dvdpcoTrcov erepa tls elvai, tcov Be av drjplojv
dXXrj rpocf>rj.
HE. YlavraTraol ye Trpodvp.6rara Kal av8peiorara
Sirjprjoaf p.rj p.evroi tovto ye els aSdis /cara.
Svvap.iv Traoxcop.ev .
ne. sn. To ttolov;
HE. Mij opuKpov p.6piov ev Trpos p,eydXa Kal
B TroAAd acf>aipcop.ev, p.rj8e el8ovs ^o,Pi?' d^Xd to
p,epos a/ia elSos ivirco. KoXKiotov p,ev yap oltto
tcov diXXcov evdi>s Siaxcopl^eiv to ^rjrovp.evov, dv
opdd>s exrj, KadaTrep oXlyov ov Trporepov olrjdels
e"xeiv rrjv oUllpemil eTreoTrevoas tov Xoyov, I8cov
eTr' dvdpcoTrovs tropev6p.evov dXXd yap, o> cf>iXe,
XeTrrovpyelv ovK docf>aXes, Sid p,eocov Se docf>aXe-
orepov levai rep.vovras, Kal p.aXXov I8eais av ti?
Trpoorvyxdvoi. tovto Se Sia^epei to ttdv Trpos
0 ra? ^rjrrjoeis.
ne. 2n. Ilco?, c3 eve, Xeyeis tovto;
HE. Yleipareov eri oacf>eorepov cf>pd^eiv evvola
rrjs orjs cf>voecos, co T,coKpares. ev tco p,ev ovv
TrapeorrjKori ro, vvv SrjXcooai p.rjSev evSecos dSvvaroV
emxeiprjreov 8e tl Kal op.iKpco TrXeov avro Trpoaya-
yelv els to Trpoodev oacf>rjvelas eVe/ca.

1
dnr\aaloiai] div\aaiois i) BT.
22
THE STATESMAN

[
of indifference to mere names, you will turn out
richer in wisdom when you are old. But now we
will, as you suggest, not trouble ourselves about
the name ; but do you see a way in which a man may
show that the art of herding is twofold, and may
thereby cause that which is now sought among a
double number of things to be sought among half
as many ?
y. soc. I am quite willing to try. I think one
kind is the care of men, the other that of beasts.
str. You made the division with perfect willingness
and courage. However, let us do our best not to
fall again into your error.
y. soc. What error ?
str. We must not take a single small part, and
set it off against many large ones, nor disregard
species in making our division. On the contrary,
the part must be also a species. It is a very fine
thing to separate the object of our search at once
from everything else, if the separation can be made
correctly, and so, just now, you thought you had the
right division and you hurried our discussion along,
because you saw that it was leading towards man.
Hut, my friend, it is not safe to whittle off shavings ;
it is safer to proceed by cutting through the middle,
and in that way one is more likely to find classes.
This makes all the difference in the conduct of
research.
Y. soc. What do you mean by that, Stranger ?
str. I must try to speak still more clearly,
Socrates, out of regard for your capacity. Just at
present it is impossible to make the matter entirely
plain, but I will try to lay it before you a little more
lully for the sake of clearness.
23
PLATO

Srj
NE. 2n. Yloiov ovv cf>pa^eis Siaipovp.evovs
rjp.ds ovK opdd>s dpri opdv;
loiovoe, tis rdvdpcomvov em^ei-

el
HE. oiov
D prjoas S'Xa oieXioOaiSiaipol KaddTrep oi
yevos
TroXXol tcov evdaoe Siavefiovoi, to p.kv 'EXXrjviKov
cos ev goto ttovtcov dif>aipovvres ^copi'?, ovp.Traoi Se
rols dXXois yeveoiv, dTrelpois ovoi Kal dpuKrois Kal
dovpuf>covois Trpos dXXrjXa, p.ia KXrjoei
fidpfiapov
TrpooeiTrovres avro Sid ravrrjv rrjv p.lav KXrjoiv KoX
yevos ev avro elvai TrpooSoKcooiv tov dpidp.ov

rj
tis av vop.l^oi Kar' eiSrj Svo Siaipelv p.vpidoa
dTrorep.v6p,evos dTro Travrcov, cos ev elSos dTroxco-
8rj
pl^cov, Kal to> Xolttco Travrl dep.evos ev ovop.a
E

Sid trjv KXrjoiv av Kal tovt diol yevos eKelvov


xcopls erepov ev ylyveodai.1 KdXXiov 8e ttov Kal
Kar elSrj Kal Siaipoir' dv, tov

el
p.aXXov Si'^a p.ev
dpidp.ov dprlcp Kal Trepirrcp tis rep.voi, to Se av
tcov dvdpcoTrcov yevos dppevi Kal drjXei, AvSovs Se
Qpvyas rivas erepovs Trpos aTravras rarrcov
rj
r)

aTrooxl^oi rore, rjviKa dTropol yevos dpa Kal p.epos


263 evploKeiv eKarepov tcov oxiodevrcov.
NE. 2n. 'Opdorara, dXXd yap tovto ovto,
7

coeve, tto>s av tis yevos Kal p.epos evapyeorepov


yvolrj, co? ov tovtov eorov dXX erepov dAA^Aoiv;
HE. TQ jieXriore dvopcov, ov ^avXov Trpoorarreis,
HcoKpares. rjp.eis p.ev Kal vvv p.aKporepav tov
oeovros dTro tov Trporedevros Xoyov TreTrXavrjp.eda,
orv Se eri TrXeov r)p.as KeXeveis TrXavrjdrjvai. vvv
p.ev ovv, cooTrep eiKos, eTravlcop.ev TrdXiv ravra Se
lv yiyveadai Stallbaum iyyiyveadai BT.
'

2J.
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. What is it, then, that you say we did
wrongly in making our division just now?
str. It was very much as

if,
in undertaking to
divide the human race into two parts, one should
make the division as most people in this country do

;
they separate the Hellenic race from all the rest as
one, and to all the other races, which are countless in
number and have no relation in blood or language to
"
one another, they give the single name " barbarian

;
then, because of this single name, they think a

is
it
single species. Or was as a man should think

if
it

he was dividing number into two classes by cutting


olf a myriad from all the other numbers, with the
notion that he was making one separate class, and
then should give one name to all the rest, and
because of that name should think that this also
formed one class distinct from the other. A better
division, more truly classified and more equal, would
be made by dividing number into odd and even, and
the human race into male and female as for the
;

Lydians and Phrygians and various others they could


be opposed to the rest and split off from them when
was impossible to find and separate two parts, each
it

of which formed a class.


y. soc. Very true; but that's just the trouble,
Stranger how can we get a clearer knowledge of
:

class and part, and see that they are not the same
thing, but different
?

stk. Socrates, you most excellent young man,


it
is

no small task you impose upon me. We have already


strayed away from our subject more than we ought,
and you wish us to wander still farther afield. So
for the present let us return to our subject, as
is

proper; then we will go on the trail of this other


25
PLATO

I] els avdis Kara oxoXrjv KaddTrep Ixvevovres p.erip,ev.


ov p.rjv dXXd tovto ye av TravraTraoi cf>vXaai, p,rj
Trore Trap' ep.ov 86rjs avro evapyd>s Sicopiop,evov
aKrjKoevai .
NE. sn. To Trolov;
HE. EfSo? re Kal p.epos erepov dXXrjXcov elvai.
NE. 2n. Tl p.rfpr;
HE. 'Q.s elSos p.ev orav fj rov, Kal p.epos avro
dvayKalov elvai tov Trpdyp.aros orovTrep av eiSo?
Xeyrjrar fiepos 8e eloos1 ovSep.la dvdyKr). ravrrj
p.e rj '/ceiVrj p.aXXov, d> HcoKpares, del cf>ddi Xeyeiv.
NE. 2n. Tavr' eorai.
Srj

C HE. Qpdoov p.oi to p.erd tovto.


NE. sa. Ylolov;
HE. T6 rrjs dTroTrXavrjoecos dTrodev rjp.as Sevp'
rjyayev. olp.ai p.ev yap /iaAiora, ddev epcorrjdels
ov rrjv dyeXaiorpocf>iav 0rr7j oiaipereov eiTres p.dXa
Trpodvp.cos 8v" elvai ^cocov yevrj, to p,ev dvdpamivov,
erepov Se tcov dXXcov vp.Trdvrcov drjplcov ev.
NE. sn. 'AXrjdrj.
Kai tot'
ST)

HE. ep.oiye ecf>dvrjs p.epos dcf>aipcov


rjyelodai KaraXnreiv to Xolttov av Trdvru>v yevos ev,
ori Trdoi ravrov iTrovop.d^eiv eoxes 6Vo/ia, drjpia
D

KaXeoas.
NE. sn. 'Hv Kal ravra ovtcos.
To Se ye, ttovta>v aVSpeioVare, rax' dv,
c3

HE.
ttov cf>p6vip.6v eori' ti ^coov erepov, olov SoKel to
el

tdv yepdvcov, ti toiovtov dXXo, Kara ravra


o
1j

locos Siovop.d^ei KaddTrep Kal ov, yepdvovs p.ev ev


yevos dvriridev tols dXXois ^coois Kal oep.vvvov
avro eavro, ra Se aAAa p.erd tcov dvdpcoTrcov vXXa-
ei5oi's BT.
1

elSos]
26
THE STATESMAN
matter by and by, when we have time. Only take
very good care not to imagine that you ever heard
me deelare flatly
y. soc. What ?
str. That class and part are separate from one
another.
Y. soc.But what did you say ?
str. That when there is a class of anything, it
must necessarily be a part of the thing of which it is
said to be. a class ; but there is no necessity that a
part be also a class. Please always give this, rather
than the other, as my doctrine.
y. soc. 1 will do so.
str. Then please go on to the next point.
Y. soc. What is it ?
str. That from which our present digression
started. For I think it started when you were asked
how the art of herding should be divided and said
with great readiness that there were two kinds of
living beings, the human race and a second one, a
single class, comprising all the beasts.
y. soc. True.
str. And it was clear to me at the time that you
removed a part and then thought that the remainder
was one class because you were able to call them
all by the same name of beasts.
y. soc. That is true, too.
str. But indeed, my most courageous young
friend, perhaps, if there is any other animal capable
of thought, such as the crane appears to be, or any
other like creature, and it perchance gives names,
just as you do, it might in its pride of self oppose
cranes to all other animals, and group the rest, men
included, under one head, calling them by one name,
27
PLATO

fiov els ravro ov8ev dXXo TrXrjv iocos drjpla Trpojeinoi.


Treipadcoixev ovv 1j/iei? eevXaBelodai Trdvd' oTrooa
roiaura.
B NE. Jn. llcu?;
HE. Mrj Trav to rcov ^cocov yivos oiaipovp,evoi,
Iva rjrrov aura Trao^co/iev.
NE. 2n. Oi5Sec yap Sei.
HE. Kai yap ovv /cai rore rjp.apravero ravrrj.
NE. 2n. Tl S^ ;
HE. lrjs yvojoriKrjs ooov emra/cn/cov rjp.lv p,epos
rjv ttov rod ^cporpocf>iKov yevovs, dyeXalcov p,rjv
.^cocov. rj yap;
ne. 2n. Nai.
HE.Airjprjro tolvvv rjSrj /cai tots vpnrav to i,coov
264 tai ridaocp /cai ayplcp. to p.ev yap exovra
ridaoeveodai cf>voiv rjp.epa Trpooelprjrai, ta Se p.rj
exovra dypia.
ne. sn. KaAcS?.
HE. Hv Se ye drjpevop.ev emorqp.rjv, ev roi?
rjv

rjp.epois re /cai eoriv, eVi roi? dyeAai'oi?


t^rrjrea dpep.p.aoiv.
NE. sn. Nai.
HE. Mr) tolvvv oiaipcop,eda cooTrep rore Trpos
dTravra dTroBXeifiavres, oTrevoavres, iva
Sr)

pnjoe
rfj ttoXitlKr}.
B

ra^u yevcop.eda Trpos TreTrolrjKe yap


ij/ia? /cai iw Tradelv to /caro trjv Trapoip.lav Trddos.
NE. 2n. Ilc/iov;
HE. Oi5^ rjovxovs ev Siaipovvras rjvvKevai Bpa-
Surepov.
28
THE STATESMAN
which might very well be that of beasts. Now let
us try to be on our guard against all that sort of
thing.
Y. soG How can we guard against it ?
sth. By not dividing the whole class of living
beings, that so we may avoid such errors.
y. 8oC Well, there is no need of dividing the
whole.
str. No, certainly not, for it was in that way that
we fell into our former error.
Y. spc.What do you mean ?
str. That part of intellectual science which
involves giving commands was a part of our animal-
tending class, with especial reference to animals in
herds, was it not ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. Well, even at that stage of our discussion all
animals had already been divided into tame and wild.
For if their nature admits of domestication they are
called tame ; if it does not, they are called wild.
y. soc. Excellent.
sth. But the science we are hunting for was, and
is, to be sought among tame creatures, more specifically
creatures in herds.
y. soc. Yes.
str. Let us, then, not make our division as we did
before, with a view to all, nor in a hurry, with the
idea that we may thus reach political science quickly,
for that has already brought upon us the proverbial
penalty.
Y. soc. What penalty ?
str. The penalty of having made less speed,
because we made too much haste and did not make
our division right.
29
PLATO

ne. sn. Kai KaXd>s ye, cL eve, TreTroLqKev .

8. HE. Tavr' eorco. TrdXiv S' oSv e apxrjs


rrjv Koivorpocf>iKrjv Treipd>p.eda Siaipelv ioco? yap
Kal tovto o ov Trpodvp. elSiaTrepaiv6p.evos 6 Xoyos
avros ooi KclXXiov p.rjvvoei. Kal /ioi cppd^e.
ne. 2n. Ylolov Srj;
HE. ToSe, e? tivo>v TroAAa/ci? apa SiaKrjKoas' ov
C yap Trpoorvxtfs ye avros ol8' ori yeyovas rai?
St)

eV toi NelXco ridaoelais tcov lxdvcji>v Kal rd>v ev rals

fiaoiXiKals Xlp.vais. ev p,ev yap Kprjvais rax'


locos elrjs fjodrjp,evos.
ne. Sn. Yldvv p.ev ovv Kal ravra redeap.ai
KaKelva ttoXKCjv aKrjKoa.
Kai Kal yepavoftcorias,

el
HE. p.rjv xrfvopayrlas ye
Kal p,rj TreTrXdvqoai Trepl to. QerraXiKa TreSla,
TreTrvoai yovv Kal Trioreveis elvai.
ne. 2n. Ti p.rjv;
ToCS' eveKa tol Trdvra rjpcorrjoa ravra,
D

HE.
Sicm rrjs tcov dyeXalcov rpo&r)s eori p.rjv evvopov,
eori Kal rjpojiariKov.
Se
NE. 2n. "Eorl yap ovv.
HE. TAp' oSv Kal ool vvooKei ravrrj oeiv Si^a-

^eiv rrjv Koivorpocf>iKrjv emorrjp.rjv, ecf>' eKarepoj


tovtoyv to p.epos avrrjs emvep.ovras eKarepov, to
to
S'

p,ev erepov vyporpo^iKov 6vop.d^ovras, erepov


rjporpocf>iK6v;
NE. 2n. "E/xoiye.
HE. Kai p.rjv Kal to fiaoiXiKov ovrcos ov rj-
eori rrjs t^itis"
E

rrjoop.ev oTrorepas orjXov yap1


Travri.
ov;
S'

NE. 2n. Yld>s


yap Burnet yap BT.
1

cS?j
:

30
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. And it was a good thing for us, Stranger.
str. I do not deny it. So let us begin again
and try to divide the art of tending animals in
common ; for perhaps the information you desire so
much will come to you in the ordinary course of our
conversation better than by other means. Tell me
y. soc. What?
str. Whether, as Isuppose, you have often heard
people speak of this, for 1 know you never actually
saw the preserves of lish in the Nile and in the ponds
of the Persian king. But perhaps you have noticed
the like in fountain-pools.
y. soc. Yes, I have often seen the fish in fountain-
pools and have heard many tales of those foreign
preserves.
str. And surely, even if you have not wandered
over the plains of Thessaly, you have heard of goose-
farms and crane-farms there and you believe that
they exist.
y. soc. Yes, of course.
str. The reason why I asked you all these questions
is that the rearing of flocks is in part aquatic and in
part an affair of the dry land.
y. soc. Yes, that is true.
str. Then do you agree that we ought to divide
the art of tending animals in common into corre
sponding parts, assigning one part of it to each of
these two, and calling one the art of aquatic-herding
and the other the art of land-herding ?
y. soc. Yes, I agree.
str. And surely we shall not have to ask to which
of these two arts kingship belongs, for that is clear
to everyone.
y. soc. Of course.
31
PLATO
i i a? to ye rjporpo^iKov rrjs dyeXaio-

St)
HE. p,ev
rpocf>las Sie'Aoir' aV cf>vXov.
ne. sn. Hcos;
HE. Tco Trrrjvco re Kal rreu) oiopiodp.evos,
NE. 2n. 'AXrjdeorara.
=E. Ii 06; ro
TroAltlKov Trepi ro TreL,0v

t)
^rjrrjreov; ovK oiei Kal tov d^poveorarov d>s
r)
eTr0? elTrelv oodeiv ovtcos;
ne. 2n. "Eycoye.
HE. Trjv Se Tre^ovopaKrjv KaddTrep dpriov dpidp.6v;

,
Sei rep.vop.evrjv Si'^a dTrocf>alveiv.
ne. Jn. ArJAov.
65 HE. Kai /Lir)v e^' o ye piepos copp.rjKev rjp.lv

6
Aoyo?, ert' eKeivo ovo rive Kadopdv oSco rera/aeVa
cf>aiverai, rrjv piev ddrrco, Trpos p,eya p.epos op.iKpov
Siaipovp.evrjv, rrjv Se, oTrep ev rco Trpoodev eXeyop.ev
6'n Sei pieoorop,elv d>s p.dXiora, tout' exovoav
p.aXXov, p.aKporepav ye p.rjv. eeoriv ovv orrorepav
dv fiovXrjdd>piev, ravrrpi Tropevdfjvai.
NE. 2n. Ti Se'; dp.cf>orepas dSvvarov;
6j

HE. "Ap.a davp.ao~re, ev p.epei ye p.rjv


y
,

SrjXov ori Svvarof.


ne. sn. 'Ev tolvvv
B

p,epei eycoye djuf>orepas


alpovp.ai.
HE.'PaSiov, eTreiSr) to Aoirrov fipaxv. Kar'
dpxds p.rjv Kal p.eoovoiv dp.a rrjs Tropelas xaXeTrov
to Trp6orayp.a, vvv S',
rjv

dv rjp.lv e'lreiSr) So/cei


ravrrj, ttjv p.aKporepav Trporepov2 icop.ev veaXe-
orepoi yap dvres p'aov avrrjv Tropevo6p.eda. rrjv Se
Sialpeoiv 6'pa.
ST)

ne. sn. Aeye.


Heindorf BT. Trpbrcpov] trporipav BT.
2

ibatrep
1

Trcpl
^

32
THE STATESMAN
str. Anybody could doubtless make a division of
the art of tending herds on land.
y. soc. What would the division be ?
str. Into the tending of flying and walking
animals.
y. soc. Very true.
str. And statesmanship is to be sought in con
nexion with walking animals, is it not ? Any fool,
so to speak, would believe that, don't you think ?
Y. soc. Of course.
str. And the art of tending animals that walk
must, like an even number, be divided in half.
y. soc. Evidently.
str. And now I think I see two paths leading in
that direction in which our argument has started :
the quicker way, by separating a relatively small
part and a larger, and the other way, which is more
in accord with what we said a while ago about the
need of making the division as nearly in the middle
as we can, but is longer. So we can proceed by
whichever of the two we wish.
y. soc. Can we not go by both ?
str. Not by both at once, silly boy ; but obviously
we can take them in turn.
y. soc. Then I choose both in turn.
str. That is easy enough, since we have but a
short distance to go. At the beginning, certainly,
or middle of our journey it would have been hard to
comply with your demand. But now, since this is
your wish, let us go lirst by the longer way, for we
are fresher now and shall get along on it more easily.
So attend to the division.
y. soc. Go on.

vol. m D 38
PLATO

9. HE. Ta Trea rjpuv rcov 'qp.epcov, oocnrep dye-


Xala, Sirjprjp.eva eorl cf>voei Si^a.
NE. sn. T1V1;
HE. Tai tcov p.ev rqv yiveoiv a/cepow elvai, rd>v
Se Kepaocf>6pov.
C ne. sn. OaiWrai.

S1j
HE. Tijv Tre^ovop,iKrjv SieXcov dTrooos eKarepco
rcp p.ipei Xoycp ^pco/xevo?, aV yap ovop.d^eiv aura
fiovXrjdfjs, eorai ooi TrepiTreTrXeyp,evov p.aXXov tov
Seovros'
ne. 2n. Ilai? ow ^1j Xiyeiv;
HE. T2Se. trjs Tretpvop.iKrjs eTrcorrjp.,rjs Si'^a
aipedelorjs to p.6piov ddrepov em tco Kepao^opco1
p.epei rco rrjs dyeXrjs imreraxdai, to Se erepov eTrl
ro> rrjs aKepdrov.
NE. 2n. Tai?r' ecttoo ravrrj Xex^evra, Travrcos
yap IKavcos SeSrjXcorai.
D

HE. Kai ye BaoiXei>s rjp.lv av /cara^ai^f


o

/ii^v
on KoXoBov dyeXr/v rivd Kepdrcov vop.evei.
NE. 2n. Ylds yap ov SrjXos;
HE. Tavrrjv roivvv Karadpavoavres to yiyvo-
p,evov2 avrco Treipcop.eda dTroSovvai.
ne. 2n. Ilara ye.
HE. Ildrepov ow BovXei tco ct^ioro> re /cai
KaXovp,evco p.covvxi Siaipelv avrT>v trj /coivoyovia
rj

re Kal loioyovla; p.avddveis yap ttov.


ne. 2n. To ttolov;
HE. "On to /iev taiv "ttttcov /cai owv
E

Trecf>vKev
e

dAArjAoov yevvav.
NE. 2n. Noi.
B.
T
1

Kepaacpbprp K(pocpbpip
:

yifvbfievov Cornarius BTW.


2

Kivoifievov
:

34
THE STATESMAN
str. The tame walking animals which live in herds
are divided by nature into two classes.
Y. soc. How by nature ?
str. Because one class is naturally without horns,
and the other has horns.
Y. soc. That is obvious.
str. Now divide the art of tending herds of
walking animals into two parts, assigning one to each
class of animals ; and define the parts, for if you try
to give them names, the matter will become need
lessly complicated.
y. soc. How shall I speak of them then ?
str. In this way : say that the science which
tends herds of walking animals is divided into two
parts, one of which is assigned to the horned portion
of the herd, the other to the hornless portion.
y. soc. Assume that I have said that ; for you
have made it perfectly clear.
"
str. And furthermore our " king is very clearly
the herdsman of a herd devoid of horns.
Y. soc. Of course ; that is evident.
str. Let us then try to break up this herd and
give the king the part that belongs to him.
Y. soc. Very well.
str. Shall we make our division on the basis of
having or not having cloven hoofs, or on that of
mixing or not mixing the breed ? You know what
Imean.
Y. soc. No. What is it ?

str. Why, I mean that horses and asses can breed


from each other.
y. soc. Oh yes.

35
PLATO

HE. To Se ye Xonrov eti rrjs Xeias dyeXrjs tcov


rjp.epcov d/uye? yevei Trpos dXXrjXa.
NE. 2n. Itdi? S' ov;
HE. Tc S j o TroAjxl/cos imuJnmsv *xiv 4"ll-
verai Trorepa Koivoyevovs cf>voecos 1j tivos 18i0-
yevovs;
NE. 2n. AjjAov orl rrjS' djUKrov.
rd

S1j
HE. Tairr?p Sei KaddTrep ep.Trpoodev, cos
eoiKev, 1j/ia? Slxa SiaoreAAeiv.
ne. sn. Aei yap ovv.
266 HE. Kai p.rjv to
ooov rjp,epov /cai
ye ^cpov,
dyeXalov, o^eSoV TrAr)v yevolv 8voiv Trav 1jS1j /cara-
KeKepp.ariorai. to yap tcov Kvvcov ovK eTrdiov
Karapidp,elv yevos cos ev dyeXalois dpep.p.aoiv.
ne. sn. Ov yap ovv. dXXa tivl rco Svo Si-

S1j
aipovp,ev;
HE. rQiTre0 Kal Si/caioV ye Qealrrjrov re /cai oe
8iavep,eiv, eTreiSrj /cai yecop.erplas dTrreodov.
NE. 2n. Tcp;
HE. TTj Sia/ierjoco Sr^ou /cai TraAiv 77j Trj? Sia-
p,erpov Siap.erpcp.
ne. 2n. Ylcos enres;
HE. 'H to yevos rjp.d>v tcov dvdpcoTrcov
B

cf>vois r)v
KeKrrjrai, p.cov dXXios ttcos els ttjv Tropelav Trecf>vKev
KaddTrep Sidp.erpos 8vvdp,ei SiTrovs;
rj

1j
1j

ne. 2n. OvK dXXcos.


The word " diameter
"
here denotes the diagonal of a
1

square. The early Greek mathematicians worked out


their arithmetical problems largely by geometrical methods
(r,/. Theaetetus 147 D ff.). The diagonal of the unit square
(\/2) was naturally of especial interest. It was called some
times, as here, simply didfierpos, sometimes, as just below,
ff

Siapirepos Svvdpiei Stirovs, or, more briefly, di&lierpos


17
i}

r}

36
THE STATESMAN
str. But the rest of the herd of hornless tame
animals cannot cross the breed.
y. soc. That is true, of course.
str. Well then, does the statesman appear to
have charge of a kind that mixes or of one that does
not mix the breed ?
Y. soc. Evidently of one that is unmixed.
str. So I suppose we must proceed as we have
done heretofore and divide this into two parts.
y. soc. Yes, we must.
str. And yet tame gregarious animals have all,
with the exception of about two species, been already
divided ; for dogs are not properly to be counted
among gregarious creatures.
y. soc. No, they are not. But how shall we divide
the two species ?

str. As you and Theaetetus ought by rights to


divide them, since you are interested in geometry.
y. soc. How do you mean ?
str. By the diameter, of course, and again by tbe
diameter of the square of the diameter.1
y. soc. What do you mean by that ?
str. Is the nature which our human race possesses
related to walking in any other way than as the
diameter which is the square root of two feet ? 2

y. soc. No.
5iTrous. Given a square the side of which is the unit (i.e.
one square foot), the length of the diagonal will be v'2, and
the square constructed with that diagonal as its side will
contain two square feet. The length of the diagonal of this
square will be ^/i=2 feet, and its area will be four square
feet.
2
There is here a play upon words. Man, being a two-
footed (tbrovs) animal, is compared to the diagonal of the
unit square ( didlicrpos SlTrovs).
37
PLATO

HE. Kai p.rjv Tj ye tov XoiTtov yevovs ttoXiv iori


Kara Svvap.iv av rrjs rjp,erepas 8vvdp,ecos Sidp.erpos,
e'inep 8volv ye eori ttooolv 81s Tre^vKvla.
ne. 2n. Ilcos S' ovK eori; /cai /cai oxebov

ST)
o /SouAei SrjXovv p.avddvco.
tovtols erepov av ri tcov Trpos

8rj
HE. Ylpos
yeXiora evSoKip.rjodvrcov av, co HcoKpares, apa Kad-
opcop,ev rjp.lv yeyovos ev rols Sirjprjp.evois
C

;
NE. sn. To Troiov;
HE. Tdvdpcomvov rjp.cov ap.a yevos ivveiXrjxos
/cai vvSeSpap.rjKos yevei tco tcov ovtcov yevvaiordrcp
/cai ap.a evxepeorarcp.
ne. sn. Kadopco /cai p.dX' aroTrcos1 vp.ftalvov.
HE. Ti S'; ovK ei/co? vorara dcf>iKvelodai ta
PpaSvrara
;

ne. 2n. Nai, rovro ye.


HE. TdSe Se ovK evvoovp.ev, cos eri yeXoiorepos
fiaoiXevs cf>alverai p,erd rrjs dyeXrjs vvSiadecov
6

/cai vv8pop.a TreTropevp.evos rcp tcov dv8pcov av Trpos


rov evxeprj filov dpiora yeyvp.vaop,evco;
J)

NE. 2n. HavraTraoi p,ev ovv.


HE. Nuv ydp, co HcoKpares, e/ceivd eori Kara-
craves p.aXXov to prjdev tot' ev rfj Trepl tov oocf>iorrjv
^Tjrr\oei.
ne. 2n. To TroiW;
HE. "Ori rfj roiaSe p.ed68co tcov ovre
Xoycov
oep.vorepov p.aXXov epieXrjoev p.rj, tov re op.iKpo-
r)

pid\' dr6tra>s] ixd\a to trais BT.


1

i.e. the remaining species


four-footed. Our diameter
is
1

v/2, and four the area of the square constructed on


is

is

the diagonal of the square which has ^2 as its side. All


38
THE STATESMAN
STit. And the nature of the remaining species,
again, considered from the point of view of the
square root, is the diameter of the square of our root,
if it is the nature of twice two feet.1
y. soc. Of course ; and now I think I almost
understand what you wish to make plain.
str. Socrates, do we see that besides this some
thing else has turned up in these divisions of ours
which would be a famous joke ?
y. soc. No. What is it ?
str. Our human race shares the same lot and
runs in the same heat as the most excellent and at
the same time most easy-going race of creatures.2
y. soc. Yes, I see that ; it is a very queer result.
str. Indeed ? But is it not reasonable that they
arrive last, who are the slowest ?
y. soc. Yes, that is true.
str. And do we fail to notice this further
point, that the king appears in a still more ridiculous
light, running along with the herd and paired in the
race with the man of all others who is most in
training for a life of careless ease ? 8
y. soc. Certainly he does.
str. For now, Socrates, we have shown more
clearly the truth of that which we said yesterday in
our search for the sophist.4
y. soc. What was it ?

str. That this method of argument pays no more


heed to the noble than to the ignoble, and no less
this satirizes the tendency of contemporary thinkers to play
with numbers.
2
The animal referred to is the pig. See P. Shorey,
Classical Philology, 1917, July, p. 308.
3
i.e. the swineherd, the pig belonging to yhu euxepearary.
4
See Sophist 227 B.
39
PLATO

repov ovoev rjrip.aKe Trpo tov p.eii,ovos , aei oe Kaa


avrrjv Trepalvei raXrjdeorarov.
ne. sn. "EoiKev.
HE.OvKovv jiera tovto, "vol p.rj p.e 'f&fjs1 epco-
rrjoas, ttjv ^paxvrepav 686v ^tis rore rjv iTrl tov
E tov fiaoiXecos opov, avros ooi Trporepov eXdco;
ne. sn. Hcf>68pa ye.

8rj
HE. Aeyco 8elv rore eiidvs to Tretpv rco SwroSi
Trpos to2 rerpaTrovv yevos Siavelp.ai, KariS6vra
8e ravdpcomvov eri p.6vcp tai ttttjv& vveiXrjxos ttjv
SiVoSa dyeXrjv TrdXiv rco ifiiXip Kal tco Trrepocf>vel
rep.veiv,rp.rjdeiorjs 8e aVrrjs Kal tot' r/'STj rij?
dvdpomovop.iKrjs 8rjXcodelo-qs rexvqs, cf>epovra tov
ttoXltlKov Kol jiaoiXiKov olov rjvloxov els avrrjv ev-
orrjoavra, TrapaSovvai rds tt}s TroXecos rjvlas cos
ou<elas Kal avrco ravrrjs ovoTqs rrjs emorrjp.rjs.
267 NE. xn. KaAai? Kal KadaTrepel xpeos d/jre8co-
Kas p.oi rov Xoyov, Trpoodels ttjv eKrporrrjv olov
toKov Kal dvaTrXrjpcooas avrov.
8rj

10. He. ct>epe Kal vvelpcop.ev eTraveXdovres


eTri rrjv apxrjv p.expi rrjs reXevrrjs tov Xoyov tov
oVd/xdr0? rrjs tov ttoXltiKov rexvrjs.
ne. 2n. fldvv p.ev ovv.
HE. lrjs yvcooriKr)s tolvvv emorrjp.rjs rjp.lv rjv
xar' dpxds p.epos emraKriKov tovtov Se dTreiKa-
odev to p.6piov avremraKriKov3 eppmh). ^cporpo-
8e ttoXiv avremraKriKr)s ov to op.iKporarov
B

cf>iKrj
tcov yeva>v aTreox^ero, Kal ^cporpocf>iKrjs eiSo?
av Tre^ovop.i-
S'

dyeXaiorpocf>iKov, dyeXaiorpocf>iKov
Stephanus Ficino tydris T.
B
1

fieficp8fis
n'
e

cjx8r)s
:

rb D, Stallbaum om. BT.


2

avreTrirciKriKov] avteTrlraKtov BT.


.!

40
THE STATESMAN
honour to the small than to the great, hut always
goes on its own way to the most perfect truth.
y. soc. So it seems.
str. Then shall I now, without waiting for you to
ask me, guide you of my own accord along that
shorter way referred to a moment ago that leads to
the definition of the king ?
y. soc. By all means.
str. I say, then, that we ought at that time to have
divided walking animals immediately into biped and
quadruped, then seeing that the human race falls
into the same division with the feathered creatures
and no others, we must again divide the biped class
into featherless and feathered, and when that division
is made and the art of herding human beings is made
plain, we ought to take the statesmanlike and kingly
man and place him as a sort of charioteer therein,
handing over to him the reins of the state, because
that is his own proper science.
Y. soc. You have cleared up the argument finely,
and as if it were a debt you were paying, you threw
in the digression as interest and for good measure.
str. Now let us go back to the beginning and
join together the definition of the name of the
statesman's art link by link to the end.
y. soc. By all means.
str. In the first place we said that intellectual
science had a part that gives commands ; and a
portion of this was called by a comparison the part
that gives its own commands ; and again the art of
rearing living beings was singled out, which is by
no means the smallest part of the art which gives its
own commands ; and a class of rearing living beings
was herd-tending, and a part of this again the herding
41
PLATO

Kov rov Se Tre^ovop.iKov p.dXiora dTrerep.vero


re)(vrj rrjs aKepdrov cf>voecos dpeTrriKrj. ravrrjs
S' av to p.epos ovK eXarrov rpnrXovv ovpnrXeKeiv
ava.yKa.lov, av els ev tis avro ovop.a ijvvayayelv
fiov.Xrjdfj, yeveoecos dp.iKroV1 vop.evriKr)v3 emorr)-
p.rjv Trpooayopevcov. to S' dTro tovtov rp.rjp.a, em
C Trolp.vrj 8ltro8l p.epos dvdpujtrovopuKov srl Xeuf>6eV
p.ovov, tovt' avro eoriv rj8rj to fcryrqdev, dp.a
fiaoiXiKov raiirov KXrjdev Kal ttoXltiKov.
ne. XQ. HavrdTraoi p.ev ovv.
HE. TApd y HujKparres, dXrjdcos rjp.lv tovto
, u1
KaddTrep ov vvv elprjKas ovtcos sotI Kal TreTrpayp.e-
vov;
NE. 2n. To ttolov Srj;
HE. To TravraTraoiv iKavds elprjodai to Trporedev
r) tovt' avro Kal p.dXiora rj ^rrjois eXXelTrei, to
t6v Xoyov elprjodai p.ev Trcos, ov p.rjv TravraTraol
D ye reXecos dTreipydodai;
ne. sn. Hd>s ehres;
HE. 'Eydi vcov Treipdoop.ai tovt' avro o Sia-
voovp.ai vvv en p.aXXov SrjXd>oai.
ne. sn. Kiyois dv.
HE. OvKovv tcov vop.evriKcov rjp.lv TroXXa>v cf>avei-
ocov dpri rexvcov p.la tis ttoXitlKrj Kal puas
tfv
rj

tivos dyeXrjs emp.eXeia;


NE. 2n. Nai.
HE. Tavrrjv Se ye Sicopi^ev Xoyos oix "tttta>v
6

elvai rpocf>6v ovS' dXXcov drjplcov, dXX' dvdpd>Trcov


Koivorpocf>iKrjv imorqp.rjv.
ne. sn. Ovrcos.
djtlKrov Boeckh BT.
1

lUKrov
:

Heindorf BT.
2

vohevtlkt}v voixeuriKr)s
:

42
THE STATESMAN
of walking animals ; and from the herding of walking
animals the art of rearing those without horns was
divided. And of this in turn one part will have to
be treated as no less than threefold, if it is to be
called by one comprehensive name, and it will be
called (1) the science (2) of tending herds (3) which
do not cross breeds. But the only possible further
subdivision of this is the art of herding human
beings, and this is at last what we are looking for,
the single art called both kingly and statesmanlike.
Y. soc. That is perfectly true.
str. And yet, Socrates, have we truly accomplished
this, exactly as you have said ?
y. soc. Accomplished what ?
str. The perfectly satisfactory discussion of our
subject. Or is our investigation incomplete in just
this detail, that we have given a definition after a
fashion, but have not perfectly completed it ?
y. soc. What do you mean ?
str. I will try to make still plainer to us both the
thought which I now have in mind.
y. soc. Please do so.
str. We found just now that there were many
arts of herding, and one of them was the art of
statesmanship, which was the care of one particular
kind of herd, did we not ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. And our argument defined this, not as the
tending of horses or other beasts, but as the science
of tending men in common.
Y. soc. Yes, it did.
43
PLATO
E II.

8rj
He. To tcov vop.ecov Trdvrcov Sid^opov
Kal to tcov fiaoiXecov deaocop,eda.
NE. 2X1. To Ttolov;
se. EE tis tcov dXXcov toi1 rexvrjs dXXrjs ovop.a
excov Koivfj rrjs dyeXrjs vvrpocf>os elval cf>rioi Kal
TrpodTroielrai.
ne. sn. Ilco? cf>rjs;
HE.Olbv oi efiTropoi Kal yecopyol Kal oirovpyol
Trdvres, Kal Trpos tovtols yvp.vaoral Kal to tcov
larpcov yevos, olod' otl tols Trepl ra dvdpuomva
vop,evoiv, ovs ttoXltlKovs eKaXeoap,ev, TravraTraoi
68 tco Xoyuo Siap.dxoivr' av ovtol o-vp.Travres, obs

acf>els rrjs rpocf>rjs em/ieAoiWai rrjs avdpumlvqs,


ov p.6vov ayeXalcov dvdpcoTrcov, dXXd Kal rrjs tuov
apxovrcov aiircov;
ne. sn. OvKovv opdd>s av Xeyoiev;
HE. "leco?. Kal tovto p.kv emaKeifiop.eda, roSe
Se iop.ev, otl ftovKoXco ye ovSels dp.cf>iofirjrrjoei
Trepi rovtcov ovSevos, dXX' auro? rrjs ayeXrjs rpocf>6s
fiovcf>opfi6s, avros larpos, avros olov vvp.cf>evrrjs
6

Kal tovs tcov yiyvop.evcov toKovs Kal Xoxelas


B

Trepl
p.6vos emorrjp.cov rrjs p.aievriKrjs' eri tolvvv Trai-
Sia? Kal p.ovoiKrjs ec' ooov avrov rd dpep.p.ara
cf>voei p.erelXrjcf>ev, ovK dXXos Kpeirro>v Trapap,vdsl-
odai Kal KrjXd>v Trpavveiv, /xera re opydvcov /cai ifiiXco
tco o~rop.ari ttjv rrjs avrov Troip.vqs dpiora p.era-
xeipi^6p.evos p.ovoiKrjv Kal Kal tcov dXXcov
rj St)

Trepl vop.ecov avros rpoTros. ydp;


6

ne. sn. 'Opdorara.


HE. Ylcos ovv r)p.iv Aoyo? 6pd6s cf>aveirai Kal
6

aKepaios Trepl tov fiaoiXecos, orav avrov vop,ea Kal


6

rcli G t6 B.
T
1

:
:

44
THE STATESMAN
str. Let us, then, observe the point of dilference
between kings and all other herdsmen.
Y. soc. What point of dilference ?
str. Let us see whether anyone who is designated
by the name of another art says and claims that he
is fellow manager of the herd in common with any
of the other kinds of herdsmen.
y. soc. What do you mean ?

str. For instance, merchants, husbandmen, and


all who prepare grain for use, and also gymnastic
trainers and physicians would certainly all dispute
with the herdsmen of humanity, whom we have called
statesmen, and would assert that they themselves
take care of the tending of humanity, and not the
tending of the common herd only, but even that of
the rulers themselves, would they not ?
y. soc. And would they be right ?
str. Perhaps. We will examine that matter ; but
this we know, that no one will ever raise such a
contention against any neatherd, but tiie herdsman
himself tends the herd, he is their physician, he is
their matchmaker, and he alone knows the midwife's
science of aiding at the birth of their olfspring.
Moreover, so far as the nature of the creatures allows
them to enjoy sport or music, no one can enliven or
soothe them better than he ; whether with instru
ments or merely with his voice he performs the
music best suited to his own herd ; and the same
applies to the other herdsmen. Is not that the case ?
y. soc. You are quite right.
str. Then how can our discourse about the king
be right and free from error, when we pick him out
45
PLATO

C rpocf>6v dyeXrjs dvdpunrlvrjs dd>p.ev p.6vov eKKpl-


vovres p.vplcov dXXcov dp.cf>iofirjrovvru>v ;
NE. 2n. OuSa/LuSs.
HE. QvKovv opQu~>s oXlyov ep.trpoa8ev c^o/9r^#?j-
p.ev vTrortrevoavres p.rj Xeyovres p.ev ti rvyxdvoip.ev
jiaoiXiKov, ov p.rjv dTreipyaop.evoi ye elp.ev ttco
o-)(rjp.a
Si' aKpifielas rov ttoXvtlKov, ecos av tovs TrepiKexv-
p,evovs avrco Kal rrjs ovvvop.r)s avrco avrnroiov-
p,evovs TrepieXovres Kal xcoploavres dTr' eKelvcov
Kadap6v p.ovov avrov dTrocf>ifvu>p,ev ;
D ne. sn. 'Opdorara p,ev ovv.
HE. Tovto tolvvv, c3 HcoKpares, rjpXv Troirjreov,
el p.rj p.eXXop,ev1 eTrl to reXei Karaio-xyvai tov
Xoyov.
NE. sn. 'AAAa p.rjv ovSap.d>s tovto ye Spaoreov .
12. HE. IlaAiv tolvvv e dXXrjs dpxfjs Sei Kad'
irepav 686v Tropevdrjval riva.
ne. 2n. Holav 8ij;
HE.S^eSov TraiSiav eyKepaoap.evovs' ovxvd> yap
p.epei Sel p.eydXov p.vdov Trpooxprioaodai, Kal to
Xolttov S1j, KaddTrep ev tols Trpoodev, p.epos del
E p,epovs dcf>aipovp.evovs BTr aKpov dcf>iKvelodai to
^tjrovp,evov . ovKovv xprj>
ne. 2n. Ilavu p.ev oSv.
Srj

HE. 'AAAd to> p.vdco p.ov Trdvv Trp6oexe tov


vovv, KaddTrep ol TralSes' Trdvrcos ov TroXXd eK-
cf>evyeis TraiSid?2 cTtj.
NE. 2n. Aeyois dv.
HE. vH.v tolvvv Kal eri e'orai tcov TrdXai Xexdev-

lUWofiev Ast lii\\oificv BT.


'

Traidias Campbell trai8ias BT troi5ias Stephanus


2

:
:

trauWas al.
46
THE STATESMAN
alone as herdsman and tender of the human herd,
while countless others dispute his claim ?
y. soc. It cannot possibly be right.
str. We suspected a little while ago that although
we might be outlining a sort of kingly shape we had not
yet perfected an accurate portrait of the statesman,
and could not do so until, by removing those who
crowd about him and contend with him for a share
in his herdsmanship, we separated him from them
and made him stand forth alone and uncontaminated.
Was our fear justified ?
Y. soc. It
certainly was.
str. Then we must attend to that, Socrates, if
we are not to end our argument in disgrace.
y. soc. But we certainly must not do that.
str. Then we must begin again from a new
starting-point and travel by a dilferent road.
y. soc. By what road ?
str. By one which olfers us some amusement ;
for there is a famous story a great part of which it
is really our duty to insert into our discussion ; and
then after that we can proceed as before, by elimin
ating part after part, and in that way reach the
ultimate object of our search. Shall we do that ?
Y. soc. By all means.
str. Then please pay careful attention to my
story, just as if you were a child ; and anyway you
are not much too old for children's tales.
y. soc. Please tell the story.
str. Of the portents recorded in ancient tales

47
PLATO

Kal to

S1j
rcov TroXXd re aAAa Kal Trepl ttjv 'Arpecos
re Kal Qveorov Xexdeioav epiv cf>dop.a. aKrjKoas
yap ttov Kal dTrop.vrjp.oveveis cf>aoi yeveodai rore.

o
ne. 2n. To Trepl rrjs xpvcrrjs dpvos locos arjp.elov
cf>pd^eis.
269 Oi5Sa/xco?, dXXd to Trepl tr}? p,erafioXfjs
He.
Svoecos re Kal dvaroXrjs r/Ai'ou Kal rcov dXXcov
aorpcov, cLs dpa odev p,ev dvareXXei vvv, els tovtov
rore tov toTtov eSvero, dvereXXe eK tov ivavrlov,

S'
totc
S1j

piaprvprjoas dpa
Se de6s 'Arpei p.ere-

6
fiaXev avro em to vvv o^ij/ia.
Aeyerai yap ovv Kal tovto.

Sr)
NE. 2n.
HE. Kal p,rjv ad Kal rqv ye fiaoiXelav rjv T/pe
Kpovos TroXXd>v dKrjKoap.ev.
ne. sn. YlXelorcov p.ev ovv.
B

HE. Ti Se; to tovs ep.Trpoodev cf>veodai yrjyevels


Kal yevvaodai;
e

p.rj dXXtfXcov
NE. 2n. Kai tovto ev tcov TrdXai Xexdevrcov.
HE. Taura toivvv satl p.ev vp.Travra eK ravrov
Trddovs, Kal Tr/30? tovtols erepa p.vpla Kal tovtcov
eri davp.aororepa, Sia Se xpovov TrXfjdos ra p.ev
avrcov aTreofirjKe, to Se SieoTrapp.eva elprjrai ^copi?
coti ttoxti tovtois
S'

e/caora aTr' dXXrjXcov. o


airiov to Trddos oi8els elprjKev, vvv Se XeKreov
St)
C

els yap rrjv tov /JaoiAe'co? dTr68eiiv Trpeifiei pTfiev.

Hermes revenged upon the Pelopidae the death of his


1

son Myrtilus by causing a lamb with golden fleece to be


born among the flocks of Atreus. When his claim to the
succession was disputed, Atreus promised to show this
prodigy to prove that the gods were on his side. Thyestes
persuaded Aerope, the wife of Atreus, to give him the lamb,
and Atreus was in danger of losing his kingdom, had not
Zeus, who favoured his claim, made the sun and the Pleiades
48
THE STATESMAN
many did happen and will happen again. Such an
one is the portent connected with the tale of the
quarrel between Atreus and Thyestes. You have
doubtless heard of it and remember what is said
to have taken place.
y. soc. You refer, I suppose, to the token of the
golden lamb.1
str. Oh no ; I mean the change in the rising and
setting of the sun and the other heavenly bodies,
how in those times they used to set in the quarter
where they now rise, and used to rise where they
now set, but the god at the time of the quarrel, you
recall, changed all that to the present system as a
testimony in favour of Atreus.
y. soc. Yes, I've heard that, too.
str. And again we have often heard the tale of
the reign of Cronus.
y. soc. Yes, very often.
str. And how about the story that the ancient
folk were earthborn and not begotten of one another?
y. soc. That is one of the old tales, too.
str. Well, all these stories and others still more
remarkable have their source in one and the same
event, but in the lapse of ages some of them
have been lost and others are told in fragmentary
and disconnected fashion. But no one has told
the event which is the cause of them all, and so
I must tell it now ; for that will help us to make
clear the nature of the king.
return from their setting towards their rising. This is the
form of the story given in a scholium on Euripides, Oresies,
988, and Plato seems to have this form in mind, though
variants existed. The lamb was a token (a,rmeiov) of the
favour of the gods, and the changed course of the sun and
stars was a testimony (naprvpfiiras) to the right of Atreus.
VoL. ill E 49
PLATO

13. ne. 2n. KaAAior' elTres, Kal Xeye p.rj8ev


eAAeiVcov.
HE. 'AKovois av. to yap
roSe rore /iev ai5-
TrdV
tos 6 de6s vjlTroSrjyel Tropevop.evov /cai ovyKvKXel,
tots S' dv^/cev, orav ai TrepioSoi tov TrpoorjKovros
avrco p.erpov elXrjcf>cooiv rj8tj xpovov, to Se TraXiv
D avrop.arov els rdvavrla Trepidyerai, ^d>ov bv /cai
cf>p6vrjc7iv elXrjxos e/c tov ovvapixooavros avro Kolt
dpxds. tovto Se avrco to avdTraXiv ieVai Sid toS'
e dvayKrjs ep.cf>vrov yeyovev.
NE. 2n. Aid r0 TroIov S1^;
HE. To Kcira raura /cai codolvtcos exeiv a.e' Kcll
ravrov elvai toTs Trdvrcov deiorarois Trpoo^Kei
p.ovois, ocop.aros Se cf>vois ov ravrrjs rrjs raeu>?.
ov Se ovpavov /cai Koop.ov eTrcovop.dKap,ev , TtoXXa>v
p,ev /cai p.aKaplcov Trapd tov yevvrjoavros p.erelXrj-
8rj

cf>ev, arap ovv KeKoivcovrjKe ye /cai ocop.aros'


odev avrco /iera/taAij? dp.olpco ylyveodai Sid Trav-
E

tos dSvvarov, Kolto. Svvap.lv ye p.rjv oti p.dXiora ev


tco aurcp Kara raurd p.lav cf>opdv /civeirar Sio ttjv
avaKvKXrjaiv elXrjxev, oti op.iKpordrTpi rr)s avrov
Kivrjoecos TrapdXXaiv avro Se eavro orpecf>eiv
.

del o^eSoV ovSevl 8vvarov TtXtjv tco tcov Kivovp,evcov


av Trdvrcov rjyovp.evcp, Kivelv Se tovtco tots p.ev
dXXcos, aSdis Se evavrlcos ov depus. e/c Trdv-
8rj

tcov tovtcov tov Koop.ov p.rjre ainov xprj cf>dvai


orpecf>eiv eavrov del, p.rj^ av oXov del vtto deov
orpecf>eodai Sirra? /cai evavrlas Trepiaycoyds, p.rjr
'0 av Svo rive ded> cf>povovvre eavrols eVaim'a orpi-
cf>eiv avrov, dXX' dTrep dpri epprjdrj /cai p.6vov Xonrov,

50
THE STATESMAN
Y. soc. Very good ; just tell your tale and omit
nothing.
str. Listen then. During a certain period God
himself goes with the universe as guide in its revolv
ing course, but at another epoch, when the cycles
have at length reached the measure of his allotted
time, he lets it go, and of its own accord it turns
backward in the opposite direction, since it is a living
creature and is endowed with intelligence by him
who fashioned it in the beginning. Now this reversal
of its motion is an inevitable part of its nature for
the following reason.
y. soc. What reason ?
str. Absolute and perpetual immutability is a
property of only the most divine things of all, and
body does not belong to this class. Now that which
we call heaven and the universe has received from
its creator many blessed qualities, but then, too, it
partakes also of a bodily nature ; therefore it is
impossible for it to be entirely free from change ; it
moves, however, so far as it is able to do so, with a
single motion in the same place and the same
manner, and therefore it has acquired the reverse
motion in a circle, because that involves the least
deviation from its own motion. But to turn itself
for ever is hardly possible except for the power that
guides all moving things ; and that this should turn
now in one direction and now in the opposite
direction is contrary to divine law. As the result of
all this, we must not say either that the universe
turns itself always, or that it is always turned by God
in two opposite courses, or again that two divinities
opposed to one another turn it. The only remaining
alternative is what I suggested a little while ago, that
51
PLATO
rore p.ev vTr aXXrjs ovp.TroSrjyelodai delas aina?,
to Ifiv TrdXiv imKrcip.evov /cai Xap.fidvovra ddavaolav
imoKevaorrjv Tra.00. rov Srjp.iovpyov, rore S'
orav dve&fj, Sc' iavrov1 avrov ieVai, /cara Kaipov
acf>edevra toiovtov, coore dvaTraXiv Tropeveodai
TroXXds Trepi6Siov /iupiaSa? Sia St)2 to p.eyiorov
ov Kal looppoTrcorarov eTrl opuKpordrov fialvov
Tr0S6? levai.
B NE. Sn. Oaiverai yovv Kal p.dXa

ST)
ei/coVco?
elprjodai Trdvd' ooa SieXrjXvdas.
14, Aoyiodp.evoi vvvorjocop.ev to Tra-

ST)
HE.
dos eK tcuv vvv Xexdevrcov, o Trdvrcov ecf>ap,ev elvai
ra>v davjiaoTdv alriov. eori yap ovv tout' avro.

ST)
NE. 2n. To Tr0101/;
HE. T6 rrjv rov Travr0? rore p.6v icf>'

5
cf>opdv
vvv KvKXeirai cf>epeodai, rore S' em ravavrla.
NE. 2n. Ilco? Srj;
HE. Tavrqv ttjv p.erafloXrjv Tjyelodai Sei tcov Trepl
tov oipavov yiyvop.evcov rpoTrdv TiaoG>v elvai p,eyl-
o~rijv /cai
reXecorarrjv rpoTrrjv.
C

ne. sn. "Eoi/ce yovv.


HE. Meyiora? tolvvv Kal /iera/JoAd? xprj vop.l^eiv
ylyveodai tots toi? eW6? rjp.iv oiKovoiv avrov.
ne. sn. Kai tovto ei/cd?.
HE. Mera/JoAa? Se p.eydXas Kal rroAAd? /cai Trav-
roia? ovp.cf>epopievas dp' ovK iopiev rfjv td>v ^cocov
cf>voiv on ^aAeTroi? aVe^erai;
ne. 2n. ou;
S'

Ilco?
HE. O0opai tolvvv dvdyKrjs totc jU.eyicrrai
e

vp.fialvovoi toov re aAAcov ^codov, Kal /cai to tcov


ST)

^outoO Eusebius eavrbv BT.


1

Stallbaum BT.
2

5,*
M)

52
THE STATESMAN
the universe is guided at one time by an extrinsic
divine cause, acquiring the power of living again and
receiving renewed immortality from the Creator,
and at another time it is left to itself and then
moves by its own motion, being left to itself at
such a moment that it moves backwards through
countless ages, because it is immensely large and
most evenly balanced, and turns upon the smallest
pivot.
y. soc. All that account of yours appears, at any
rate, very reasonable.
str. Then, in the light of what has been said, let
us consider and gain understanding of the event
which we said was the cause of all those wonderful
portents ; for it is really just this.
y. soc. Just what ?
str. The fact that at certain periods the universe
has its present circular motion, and at other periods
it revolves in the reverse direction.
y. soc. How was this the cause ?
str. We cannot help believing that of all the
changes which take place in the heavens this reversal
is the greatest and most complete.
y. soc. It certainly seems to be so.
str. Therefore we must also believe that at the
same time the greatest changes come upon us who
dwell within the heavens.
That is likely too.
y. soc.
str. And animals cannot well endure many great
and various changes at once. That is a familiar fact,
is it not ?
y. soc. Of course.
str. Inevitably, then, there is at that time great
destruction of animals in general, and only a small
53
PLATO

D dvdpcoTrcov yevos oXlyov tL. Tre/>iAei'Trerar Trepl Se


rovrovs dXXa re Tradrjp.ara ttoXXa /cai davp.aora /cai
Kalva vp.TrlTrrei, p.eyiorov Se roSe /Cai vveTrop,evov
rfj too Travros dveiXl^ei rdre, ora^ rj rrjs vvv KaO-
eorrjKvias evavrla ylyvrjrai rpoTrrj.
ne. 2n. To ttolov;
HE. "Hv rjXiKlav eKaorov ei^e tcov ^cocov, avrrj
Trpcorov p.ev eorrj ttolvtcdv, /cai eTravoaro ttov ooov
rjv dvrjt6v eTrl to yepairepov ISeiv Tropevop.evov ,
E p.erafidXXov Se TrdXiv eVi tovvovtIov olov veanepov
/cai dTraXcorepov icf>vero, /cai tcov p,ev Trpeoftvrepcov
ai XevKal rplxes ep,eXalvovro, tcov S av yeveicovrow
ai Trapeial Xeaivop.evai TrdXiv em ttjv TrapeXdovoav
copav eKaorov Kadloraoav, tcov Se rjficovrow to.
ocop.ara Xeaiv6p,eva Kal opuKporepa KoB r/p.epav
/cai vvKra eKaorrjv yiyvop,eva TrdXiv els ttjv rod
veoyevovs TraiSd? cpvoiv dmjei, Kato. re ttjv ifivxrjv
/cai /card to ocop.a dcf>op.oiovp.eva, to S' evrevdev
rjSrj p.apaivop.eva Kop.iSfj to Trdpnrav erjcf>avl^ero .
tcov S' av fiialcos reXevrcovta>v ev tco rore xp6vco to
tov veKpov ocop.a ta avra ravra
Trdoxov Tradrjp.ara
271 Sid raxovs aSrjXov ev oXlyais rjp.epais Siecf>delpero .
ti'? tot' rjv, co eve,
S1j

15, ne. 2n. Teveois Se


/cai riVa rpoTrov
e

^cocov dXXrjXcov eyevvcovro


;

ArjXov, co Sco/cpare?, 6Vi to p.ev


e

HE. dXXijXcov
ovK rjv ev rr) tote cf>voei yevvd>p.evov, to Se yrjyeves

The tale of Atreus introduces the fanciful theory of the


1

reversal of the revolution of the heavenly bodies, and this,


especially in an age when the stars were believed to exercise
a direct influence upon mankind and other creatures, natur
ally brings with the reversal of all processes of growth.
it

This leads to a new birth of mankind, and the Stranger then


54
THE STATESMAN
part of the human race survives ; and the survivors
have many experiences wonderful and strange, the
greatest of which, a consequence of the reversal of
everything at the time when the world begins to
turn in the direction opposed to that of its present
revolution, is this.1
y. soc. What is that experience ?
str. First the age of all animals, whatever it was
at the moment, stood still, and every mortal creature
stopped growing older in appearance and then
reversed its growth and became, as it were, younger
and more tender ; the hoary locks of the old men
grew dark, and bearded cheeks grew smooth again
as their possessors reverted to their earlier ages, and
the bodies of young men grew smoother and smaller
day by day and night by night, until they became
as new-born babes, to which they were likened in
mind and body ; and then at last they wasted away
entirely and wholly disappeared. And the bodies of
those who died by violence in those times quickly
underwent the same changes, were destroyed, and
disappeared in a few days.
y. soc. But then, Stranger, how did animals come
into existence in those days ? How were they
begotten of one another ?
str. It is clear, Socrates, that being begotten of
one another was no part of the natural order of that
briefly describes the age of innocence, the fall of man and
the barbarism that follows, and the partial restoration of man
through divine interposition and the gift of the various arts
of civilization. Plato does not offer this as a real explanation
of the existing condition of the world, but it serves, like the
myths introduced in other dialogues, to present, in connexion
with accepted mythology, a theory which may account for
some of the facts of life.
55
PLATO

elval Trore yevos Xexdev tovt to /car' eKelvov

JfV
rovxpovov e'/c yrjs ttdXiv dvaorpecf>6p,evov dTrep.vrjp.o-

,
vevero Se vtto tcov rjp.erepcov Trpoyovcov tcov Trpcorcov,
oi reXev.rcoorj p,ev rrj Trporepa Trepuf>opa rov erjs
^poVov eyeirovovv, rrjob'e Se Kolt' dpxas 1cI>vovto,
J}

tovtcov yap ovroi KrjpvKes iyevovd' rjp.lv tcov Xoycov,


01 vvv vtto TtoXXcov ovK dpdcos aTriorovvrai. to yap
evrevdev, olp,ai, xprj bWVoelv. eTrop.evov1 yap
iori rco tovs Trpeofivras eTrl rrjv tov Traioos levai
cf>voiv, eK ro>v reXevrrjKora>v av, Keip.evcov Se iv yf),
TrdXiv eKel vviorap.evovs Kal dvafiicooKop,evovs

,
rfj rporrfj2 ovvavaKvKXovp.evrjs els rdvavria rrjs
8rj
yeveoecos, Kal yrjyevels Kato. tovtov tov Xoyov
dvdyKrjs cf>vop.evovs, ovtcos exelv rovvop.a Kal
e'
C

tov Xoyov, ooovs p.rj deos avrcov els dXXtjv p.olpav


eVd/uoev.
ne. 2n. Ko/LuSTJ p.ev ovv tovto ye eTrerai tol$
tov filov ov em rrjs Kpovov
Sr)

ep.Trpoodev. dXXd
cf>fjs elvai Svvdp.ecos, Trorepov ev eKelvais rjv rals
rpoTrals ev raloSe; ttjv p,ev yap tcov dorpcov re
rj

Kal rjXlov p.erafioXijv SrjXov cos ev e/care'pai?


vp.mTrrei rals rpoTrals ylyveodai.
HE. KaAcS? to> Xoyco vp.TraprjKoXovdrjKas o S'
.

rjpov Trepl tov Trdvra avr6p.ara ylyveodai tols dv-


D

dpomois, rjKiora rrjs vvv e'ori KadeorrjKvlas cf>opas,


dXX' rjv Kal tovto rrjs ep.Trpoodev. rore yap avrrjs
Stallbaum tyblievov BT.
1

eTrbficvov
:

lTreodai tr/ rpoTrfi T.


r,f)

B
2

rpoTrr)
:

This may refer to philosophers (>,/. Phatdo 82 or,


1

c)

more probably, to those who, like Menelaus, were transferred


56
THE STATESMAN
time, but the earth-born race which, according to
tradition, once existed, was the race which returned
at that time out of the earth ; and the memory of
it was preserved by our earliest ancestors, who were
born in the beginning of our period and therefore
were next neighbours to the end of the previous
period of the world's revolution, with no interval
between. For they were to us the heralds of these
stories which are nowadays unduly disbelieved by
many people. For you must, I think, consider what
would result. It is a natural consequence of the
return of the old to childhood that those who are
dead and lying in the earth take shape and come
to life again, since the process of birth is reversed
along with the reversal of the world's revolution ;
for this reason they are inevitably earth-born, and
hence arises their name and the tradition about
them, except those of them whom God removed to
some other fate.1
Y. soc. Certainly that follows from what preceded.
But was the life in the reign of Cronus, which you
mentioned, in that previous period of revolution or
in ours ? For evidently the change in the course
of the stars and the sun takes place in both
periods.
str. You have followed my account very well.
No, the life about which you ask, when all the fruits
of the earth sprang up of their own accord for men,
did not belong at all to the present period of
revolution, but this also belonged to the previous
one. For then, in the beginning, God ruled and
to the abode of the blessed, or, like Heracles, became gods.
Such individuals would be exempt from the consequences of
any subsequent reversal of the world's revolution.
57
PLATO

Trpdrov tTjs KvKXrjoecos tfpxev cTri/xcAou/ievos oXrjs 6


deos, cos S' aff1 Kara tottovs ravrov tovto vtto ded>v
dpxovrcov Travr rjv2 ra tov Koop.ov p.eprj SieiAij/L/ie-
va, /cai Kal rd oia (cara yeVTj wai dye'Aa? ocoi'

Srj
vop.rjs deloi SieiXijcf>ectav 8aip.oves, ainapKrjs els
Trdvra eKaoros eKaorois cov ols avros evep.ev, uxrre
out' dypiov rjv ovSev ovre aXXrjXoov eScoSai, TrdAe-
E

p.6s re ovK evrjv ovSe ordois to TrapdTrav dAAa

d'
ooa rrjs roiavrrjs eori KaraKoofnjoecos eTr6p.eva,
p.vpla dv elrj Xeyeiv. to

S'
ovv tcov dvdpd>Trcov
Xexdev avrop.drov Trepl filov Sid to Toi6v8e eiprjrai.
de6s evep,ev airovs avros imorara>v,
KaddTrep vvv
dvdpamoi, ^d>ov dv erepov dei6repov, aAAa yivq
cf>avXorepa avrcov vop.evovoi, vep.ovros 8e eKelvov
272 TroXirelal re ovK rjoav ovSe Krrjoeis yvvaiKcov
Kal TralScoV eK yr)s yap dvefiicooKovro Trdvres, ovSev
p,ep.vrjp,evoi tcov Trp6odev dXXd rd p,ev roiavra
aTrrjv Trdvra, KapTrovs 8e dcj>d6vovs elxov aTrd re 8ev-
8pcov Kal TroXXrjs vXrjs dXXrjs, ovx vtto yecopylas cf>vo-
p.evovs, dXX' avrop.drrjs dvaSiSovo-qs Ttjs yrjs,
yvp.vol 8e Kal dorpcoroi dvpavXovvres rd TroXXd
evep.ovro
,
to yap tcov copcov avrols dXvTrov eVeVcpa-
to, p.aXaKas 8e ewds, efyov dvacf>vop.evrjs
yrjs e/c
8rj

Trdas dcf>d6vov. tov jilov, co Yid>Kpares, aKoveis


B

p.ev tov tcov eTrl Kp6vov rovSe air Xoyos eV1


8

Ai6s elvai, tov vvvi, Trapd>v avros rjodrjoaf Kplvai


avrolv tov evSaip.oveorepov dp' dv Svvaid ts Kal
8'

edeXrjoeias
;

NE. 2n. 0vSap.d>s.


Burnet: ws'vvv BT.
5,

aO
1

ws
rt&vt' Stallbaum Travrri BT.
fy,
2

iv W BT t lis a'l.
3

a>s
:
:

58
THE STATESMAN
supervised the whole revolution, and so again, in
the same way, all the parts of the universe were
divided by regions among gods who ruled them,
and, moreover, the animals were distributed by species
and flocks among inferior deities as divine shepherds,
each of whom was in all respects the independent
guardian of the creatures under his own care, so
that no creature was wild, nor did they eat one
another, and there was no war among them, nor any
strife whatsoever. To tell all the other consequences
of such an order of the world would be an endless
task. But the reason for the story of the spontaneous
life of mankind is as follows : God himself was their
shepherd, watching over them, just as man, being
an animal of dilferent and more divine nature than
the rest, now tends the lower species of animals. And
under his care there were no states, nor did men
possess wives or children ; for they all came to life
again out of the earth, with no recollection of their
former lives. So there were no states or families,
but they had fruits in plenty from the trees and
other plants, which the earth furnished them of its
own accord, without help from agriculture. And
they lived for the most part in the open air, without
clothing or bedding ; for the climate was tempered
for their comfort, and the abundant grass that grew
up out of the earth furnished them soft couches.
That, Socrates, was the life of men in the reign of
Cronus ; but the life of the present age, which is
said to be the age of Zeus, you know by your own
experience. Would you be able and willing to
decide which of them is the more blessed ?
Y. soc. Certainly not.

59
PLATO

BouAci Srjra eyco ooi rpoTrov rivd Sia/cpiVoi;


HE.
ne. sn. IldVu p.ev ovv.
l6. He. Ei p.ev tolvvv ol rpo^ip.oi tov Kpovov,
Trapovcrqs avTols ovtco rtoXXTjs oxoXrjs /cac Svvdp.ecos
Trpos ro p.rj p.ovov dvdpo>Trols oAAo Kcll drjplois Sid
C Xoycov Svvaodai vyylyveodai, Karexpcovro tov-
tols vp.Traoiv iTrl cf>iXoooc^lav, p.era re drjplcov /cai
P^et' dXXrjXcov op.iXovvres, /cai Trvvdavop.evoi Trapd
Trdorjs cf>voecos el rivd ri? iSi'av Svvapuv exovoa
jjodero ti Sidcf>opov tcov dXXcov els ovvayvpp.ov
cf>povrjoecos, evKpirov 6Vi tcov vvv ol totc p.vpup Trpos
ev8aip.ovlav SU^epov el Se ep.Trip.TrXdp,evoi oIto>v
aSrjv /cai ttotcov SieXeyovro 'npos dXXrjXovs /cai to.
drjpla p.vdovs, oia /cai ta vvv Trepl avrcov Xeyovrai,
Sij

/cai tovto, cos ye1 /card rrjv ep.rjv 86av aTrocf>rj-


D

vaodai, /cai p.dX' evKpirov. op.cos odv ravra pev

0
dcf>cop.ev, ecos dV rjp.lv p.rjvvrrjs tis IKolvos ^avfj,
. Trorepcos ol rore rds imdvp.las ei^ov Trepl re
eTriorrjp.cov /cai rrjs tcov Xoycov xpelas' oS

S'
eW/ca
tov p.vdov rjyelpap.ev, tovto XeKreov, Iva to p.era
tovto els to Trpoodev Trepalvcop.ev eVeiSij yap
.

Trdvrcov tovtcov xpovos ereXecodrj /cai p.erafioXrjv


eSei ylyveodai /cai /cai to yrjivov rjSrj Trdv dvrjXcoro
Si)

yevos, Trdoas eKaorrjs rrjs *fivxrjs ra? yeveoeis


E

dTroSeSioKvlas, ooarjv eKaorrj Trpooraxdev rooavra}


els yrjv oTrepp.ara Treoovonqs rore tov Travros
Srj

6
,

p.ev Kvfiepvrjrrjs, olov TrrjSaXlcov oiclKos dcf>ep.evos,


els ttjv avrov TrepicoTrrjv dTreorrj, tov Se
Srj

Koop.ov
TrdXiv dveorpecf>ev re /cai vp.cf>vros
elp.app.evrj
emdvp.la. Trdvres odv ol /card tou? tottovs ovv-
BT written above the t).
G

Ciare
T
1

is

<is ye (in
7
:

Trpoaraxdiv roauvTa Eusebius TrpoaraxBivras airb. BT.


2

60
THE STATESMAN
str. Shall I, then, make some sort of a judgement
for you ?
y. soc. Do so, by all means.
str. Well, then, if the foster children of Cronus,
having all this leisure and the ability to converse not
only with human beings but also with beasts, made
full use of all these opportunities with a view to
philosophy, talking with the .animals and with one
another and learning from every creature that,
through possession of some peculiar power he may
have had in any respect beyond his lellows percep
tions tending towards an increase of wisdom, it would
be easy to decide that the people of those old times
were immeasurably happier than those of our epoch.
Or if they merely ate and drank till they were full
and gossiped with each other and the animals,
telling such stories as are even now told about
them, in that case, too, it would, in my opinion,
be very easy to reach a decision. However, let us
pass those matters by, so long as there is no one
capable of reporting to us what the desires of the
people in those days were in regard to knowledge
and the employment of speech. The reason why we
revived this legend must be told, in order that we
may get ahead afterwards. For when the time of
all those conditions was accomplished and the change
was to take place and all the earth-born race had at
length been used up, since every soul had fulfilled
all its births by falling into the earth as seed its
prescribed number of times, then the helmsman of
the universe dropped the tiller and withdrew to his
place of outlook, and fate and innate desire made
the earth turn backwards. So, too, all the gods
who share, each in his own sphere, the rule of the
6l
PLATO

dpxovres rco p.eylarcp 8alp.ovi deol, yvovres 1jSrj


to yiyvop.evov, dcf>leoav av ra p,eprj tov Koop.ov
273 rrjs avrcov eTnp,eXelas' 6 Se p.eraorpecf>6p evos /cai
vp.fidXXcov, apxrjs re /cai reXevrrjs evavriav 6pp.rjv
6pp,rjdels, oeiop.ov TroXvv ev eavrco rtoilov dXXrjv av
cf>dopdv ^cocov 'navrolcov
dTr-qpydoaro. p.erd Se
ravra TrpoeXdovros IKcivov xpovov, dopvficov re Kal
rapaxrjs rjSr/ Trav6p,evos Kal to>v oeiop.d>v yaXrjvrjs
emXafi6p.evos els re tov elcodora 8pop.ov tov
iavrov KaraKoop.ovp,evos rjei, emp.eXeiav Kal Kparos
B excov avros tcov ev avrco re Kal eavrov, tTjv tov
Srjp.iovpyov Kal Trarpos aTrop.vrjp.ovevcov SiSa^v els
Svvap.iv. /car' dpxds p,ev ouv aKpifieorepov dTrere-
Aei, reXevrcov Se ap.f}Xvrspov tovtcov 8e avrco to
ocop.aroei8es rrjs ovyKpdoecos airiov, to rrjs TrdXai
Trore cf>voecos vvrpocf>ov, otl

rjv
TroXXrjs p,erexov
dralas Trplv els tov vvv Koop.ov dcf>iKeodai. Trapa
p.kv yap tov ovvdevros Trdvra KaXd KeKrrjraf
Trapa Se rrjs ep.Trpoodev eecos, ooa xaXeTrd Kal
doiKa ev ovpavco ylyverai, raura eKelvrjs avros
e$
C

re e^ei Kal roi? 0001? evaTrepyd^erai. p.erd p,ev


ovv tov Kvjiepvrjrov ra ^coa rpecf>cov ev avrco op.iKpd
p,ev cf>Xavpa, p.eydXa Se everiKrev dyadd, xcopit,6-
p.evos Se eKelvov tov eyyvrara xpovov del rrjs
dcf>eoecos KaXXiora Trdvra Siayei, Trpoiovros Sc tov
xp6vov Kal Xrjdrjs eyyiyvop.evrjs ev avrco p.aXXov Kal
8vvaarrevei to trjs TraXaids dvapp.oo~rlas Trddos,
reXevrcovros Se eavdel tov xpavov Kal op.iKpd p,ev
D

rayadd, TroXXrjv Se ttjv tcov evavricov Kpaoiv


eTreyKepavvvp.evos eTrl Siacpdopas Klvovvov avrov re

62
THE STATESMAN
Supreme Spirit, promptly perceiving what was taking
place, let go the parts of the world which were under
their care. And as the universe was turned back
and there came the shock of collision, as the be
ginning and the end rushed in opposite directions,
it produced a great earthquake within itself and
caused a new destruction of all sorts of living creatures.
But after that, when a sulficient time had elapsed,
there was rest now from disturbance and confusion,
calm followed the earthquakes, and the world went
on its own accustomed course in orderly fashion,
exercising care and rule over itself and all within
itself, and remembering and practising the teachings
of the Creator and Father to the extent of its power,
at first more accurately and at last more carelessly ;
and the reason for this was the material element in
its composition, because this element, which was
inherent in, the primeval nature, was infected with
great disorder before the attainment of the exist
ing orderly universe. For from its Composer the
universe has received only good things ; but from its
previous condition it retains in itself and creates in
the animals all the elements of harshness and in
justice which have their origin in the heavens. Now
as long as the world was nurturing the animals
within itself under the guidance of the Pilot, it
produced little evil and great good ; but in becoming
separated from him it always got on most excellently
during the time immediately after it was let go, but
as time went on and it grew forgetful, the ancient
condition of disorder prevailed more and more and
towards the end of the time reached its height, and
the universe, mingling but little good with much of
the opposite sort, was in danger of destruction for
!
63
PLATO

dcf>iKveirai Kal tcov ev avrco. Kal tot' rjSrj

8rj
8t,6

de6s Koop.rjoas avrov, Kadopa>v ev dTroplais ovtol,

6
Krj86p,evos Iva p.rj xeip.aodels vTro rapaxrjs SiaXvdels
els rov rrjs dvojJlolorr]ros oiTreipov ovrCi Trovrov1
SvTj, TrdXiv e^e8pos avrov tcov mjSaA/cov yiyvo-
E

jxevos, ta voorjoavra Kal Xvdevra ev rrj Kold' eavrov


Trporepa Trepi68co orpeifias, Koop.el re /cai eTrav-
opdcov dddvarov avrov Kal dyrjpcov dTrepyd^erai.
Tovto ovv reXos dTrdvrcov e'iprjraf to iTrl

S'
p,ev
rrjv toG fiaoiXecos dTrooe^iv iKavov e/c tov Trpoodev
dttrop,evois tov Xoyov orpecf>devros yap av tov
Koojiov rrjv eTrl rrjv vvv yeveoiv 686v to rrjs rjXiKias
av TrdXiv loraro Kal Kaiva raVavna dTreSlSov roi?
rore. ta p.ev yap vtto opuKporrjros oXlyov 8eovra
r)cf>avlodai td>v cocov rjvdvero, rd e/c yrjs veoyevrj

S
oco/xara TroXia3 cf>vvra TrdXiv aTrodvrjoKovta els yfjv
Karrjei. Kal raXXd re Trdvra p.erefiaXXev, aTrop.ip.ov-
274 p,eva Kal vvaKoXovdovvra tco tov Travros Tradrjp.a-
ti, Kal Kal to rrjs Kvrjoecos Kal yevvqoecos Kal
8rj

rpocf>rjs p.lp.rjjxa ovveiTrero roi? Traoiv vtt' dvdyKrjs'


ov yap erjv eV ev yfj Si' erepcov ovvioravra>v
cf>veodai ^coov, dXXd KaddTrep tco Koop.co ,Trpoo-
ereraKro avroKpdropa elvai ttjs avrov uopelas,
Kara ravrd Kal tols p.epeoiv avrols
Srj

Si
ovrco
avrd>v, Kad' ooov olov r
rjv, cf>veiv re Kal yevvav
Kal rpecf>eiv Trpooerarrero vtto rrjs dp.olas dycoyrjs.
Ov Se eveKa Xoyos copp.rjKe ttds, eTr' avrco vvv
B

eop.ev rjSrj. Trepl p.ev yap tdjv dXXcov drjplcov TroXXd


av Kal p.aKpd SieeXdeiv ylyvoiro, e/caora
e

cLv
Kal Si as alrlas p,erafiefiXrjKe, Trepl Se dvdpcoTrcov
Trbvrov Simplicius, Proclus rbvov mss.
1

rtoXiA WH om. pr. W.


T

TroXiai rtoXXA
B
2

:
:
:

64
THE STATESMAN
itself and those within it. Therefore at that moment
God, who made the order of the universe, perceived
that it was in dire trouble, and fearing that it might
founder in the tempest of confusion and sink in the
boundless sea of diversity, he took again his place as
its helmsman, reversed whatever had become unsound
and unsettled in the previous period when the world
was left to itself, set the world in order, restored it
and made it immortal and ageless.
So now the whole tale is told ; but for our purpose
of exhibiting the nature of the king it will be enough
to revert to the earlier part of the story. For when
the universe was turned again into the present path
of generation, the age of individuals came again to
a stop, and that led to new processes, the reverse of
those which had gone before. For the animals which
had grown so small as almost to disappear grew
larger, and those newly born from the earth with
hoary hair died and passed below the earth again.
And all other things changed, imitating the condition
of the universe and conforming to it, and so too
pregnancy and birth and nurture necessarily imitated
and conformed to the rest ; for no living creature
could any longer come into being by the union of
other elements, but just as the universe was ordered
to be the ruler of its own course, so in the same
way the parts were ordered, so far as they could, to
grow and beget and give nourishment of themselves
under the same guidance.
And now we have come at last to the point for the
sake of which this whole discourse was begun. For
much might be said, and at great length, about the
other animals, their previous forms and the causes of
their several changes ; but about mankind there is
VoL. Ill f 65
PLATO

Ppaxvrepa /cai p.aXXov Trpoo-qKovra. rrjs yap tov


KeKrrjp,evov Kal vep.ovros rjp.as 8alp.ovos aTreprjjico-
devres emp,eXelas, tcov ttoXXa>v av drjpicov, ooa
XaXerra ,Ta? cfrvoeis fy, aTraypicodevrU>v, avrol Se
dodevels dvdpcoTroi Kal dcf>vXaKroi yeyovores SirjpTrd-
C Iflvro vtt' avrcov, Kal er' dp.rjxavoi Kal drexvoi
Kato. tovs Trpd>rovs rjoav xpovovs, are rrjs p,ev
avrop.drrjs rpocf>rjs emXeXoiTrvlas , Tropl^eodai Se
ovK emorap.evoi Trco Sid to p,rjSep.iav avrovs xpeiav
Trporepov dvayKa^eiv. e/c tovtcov Trdvrcov ev p.eyd-
ta 7raAai Xexdevra

8rj
Xais dTroplais rjoav. dd ev
Trapd ded>v Sd>pa rjp.lv SeScoprjrai p.er' dvayKalas
SiSa^ij? Kal TraiSevoecos Trvp p.ev Trapa Ylpop.rjdecos,
,

rexvai 8e '\{cf>alorov Kal rrjs ovvrixvov,


Trap'
oTrepp.ara 8e av Kal cf>vra Trap' dXXcov1, Kal Trdvd'
D

oTrooa tov dvdpcomvov jilov ovyKarevKevaKev e/c


tovtcov yiyovev, eVeiSij to piev e/c decov, oTrep
epprjdrj vvv Srj, rrjs eVi/ieAei'a? eTreXiTrev dvdpcoTrovs,
eavrcov Se eSei tr]v re oiaycoyrjv Kal rrjv em-
8i

p,eXeiav avrovs avrd>v exeiv KaddTrep oXos Koop.os,


6

vp.p,ip,ovp.evoi Kal vveTr6p,evoi tov aci xpovov


cS

vvv p,ev ovtcos, rore Se e/ceiVco? L,d>p.ev re /cai


8rj

/cai to tov p.vdov reXos exerco,


E

cf>vop.eda. p.ev
xpr]oip.ov Se avrov Troirjo6p,eda Trp6s to KariSelv
doov rjp.dprop,ev aTroxprjvdp.evoi tov jiaoiXiKov re
/cai TroAiri/c6v ev tco Trpoode X6yco.
iy. ne. 2n. Yld>s oSv Kal Ttoctov dp.dprrjp.a
cpfjs elvai yeyovos rjp.lv;
HE. Tfj p,ev fipaxvrepov rfj Se p.dXa yewalov /cai
,

ttoXXo> p.ei^ov Kal TrXeov rore.


r)

S.\\wv Stephanus Ficino aXKrj\wv BT.


1

66
THE STATESMAN
less to say and it is more to our purpose. For men,
deprived of the care of the deity who had possessed
and tended us, since most of the beasts who were
by nature unfriendly had grown fierce, and they
themselves were feeble and unprotected, were ravaged
by the beasts and were in the first ages still without
resources or skill ; the food which had formerly olfered
itself freely had failed them, and they did not yet
know how to provide for themselves, because no
necessity had hitherto compelled them. On all these
accounts they were in great straits ; and that is the
reason why the gifts of the gods that are told of in the
old traditions were given us with the needful informa
tion and instruction, fire by Prometheus, the arts by
Hephaestus and the goddess who is his fellow-artisan,
seeds and plants by other deities.1 And from these
has arisen all that constitutes human life, since, as I
said a moment ago, the care of the gods had failed
men and they had to direct their own lives and take
care of themselves, like the whole universe, which
we imitate and follow through all time, being born
and living now in our present manner and in that
other epoch in the other manner. So, then, let our
tale be finished ; but we will turn it to account for
opening our eyes to the great error wre made in the
exposition of the king and the statesman in our
earlier discussion.
y. soc. How, then, did we err, and what is the
great error you say we have committed ?
str. In one way we made a comparatively slight
error, in another a very important one, much greater
and more far-reaching than the first.
1
The fellow-artisan of Hephaestus is Athena ; seeds and
plants are the gifts of Demeter and Dionysus.
67
PLATO

NE. %n. Ucos;


HE. "Ori tov e/c rrjs vvv Trepi-
p,ev ipcorcop.evoi
cf>opas Kal yeveoecos fiaoiXea Kal ttoXitiKov tov eK
rrjs ivavrias TrepioSov Troljxeva rfjs rore dvdpcoTrlvrjs
275 dyeXrjs elTrop.ev, Kal ravra deov dvrl dvrjrov,
ravrrj p.ev Trdp.TroXv Traprjvexdrjp.ev oti Se {;vp.Trd-
orjs rrjs TroXecos dpxovra avrov dTrecf>rjvap.ev , ovriva
Se rpoTrov ov SielTrop.ev, ravrrj Se a6 to p.ev Xexdev
dXrjdes, ov p.ijv oXov ye ovSe oacf>es epprjdrj, Sio Kal
jipayyrepov fj Kolt' eKelvo rjp.aprrjKap,ev.
NE. sn. 'AXrjdrj.
HE. Aei rolvvv tov rpoTrov, d>9 eoiKe, oioploavras
rrjs dpxrjs rrjs TroXeu>s ovtco reXecos tov ttoXitiKov
,fjp.lv elprjodai TrpooSoKdv.
NE. 2n. KaXcos.
B HE. Aid ravra p.rjv Kal tov p.vdov Trapedep.eOa,
Iva evSelairo Trepl rrjs dyeXaiorpocf>ias p,rj p.6vov cos
Trdvres avrrjs dp.cf>iofirjrovoi tco ^rjrovp.evcp rd vvv,
dXXd KaKeivov avrov evapyiorepov iSoip,ev, ov
TrpoorjKei p.6vov Kara to Trapdoeiyp.a Troip.evcov re
Kal f}ovK6Xo>v rrjs1 dvdpumlvrjs emp.eXeiav exovra
rpocf>rjs rovrov p.6vov dicodrjvai rov TrOooprjp.aros.
NE. sn. 'Opdcos.
HE. Sco/cpare?, tovto piev eri
Ofyiai S' eycoye, co

C p,el^ov fj Kara fiaoiXea elvai to oxrjp.a to tov


delov vo/ie'co?, tou? S' evdd8e vvv ovras ttoXitiKovs
tols dpxop,evois op.olovs re elvai p.aXXov ttoXv rd?
cf>voeis Kal TrapaTrXrjoiairepov TraiSelas p,ereiXrj-
cf>ivai Kal rpocf>rjs.
NE. 2n. Yldvtcos Trov.
1
rT)s] rbv BT.

68
THE STATESMAN
Y. soc. How did we do that ?
str. When we were asked about the king and the
statesman of the present movement of the world and
mode of generation, we told of the shepherd of the
human flock in the time of the reverse movement,
and he was a god, not a man, besides. That was a
very great error. Then when we declared that he
was ruler of the whole state, but did not fully tell in
what manner he ruled, what we said was true, though
it was not complete nor clear, and therefore our error
was less in this case than in the other.
y. soc. True.
str. Apparently, then, we must expect a complete
description of the statesman only when we have
defined the manner of his rule over the state.
y. soc. Very good.
str. And this is why I introduced the myth, not
only in order to show that all men compete for the
care of the flock with him whom we are now seeking,
but also that we may more clearly see him who alone
ought to have the care of human beings as shepherds
and neatherds care for their flocks and herds, and
therefore alone deserves to be honoured with that
appellation.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. I think, Socrates, that the form of the divine
shepherd is greater than that of the king, whereas
the statesmen who now exist here are by nature
much more like their subjects, with whom they share
much more nearly the same breeding and education.
y. soc. Certainly.

69
PLATO

Titjrrjreoi1 ye p.rjv ovSev av elrjoav ov6" r)ttov


HE.
ovre p.aXXov, eld' ovtcos eit' eKelvcos Tre^VKaoiv .
NE. 2n. Ilai? yap ov;

S1j
BE.TjjSe4 TrdXiv iTraveXdcop,ev . yap e^a-
Ixev avreTrir0iKriKrjv p.kv elvai rexvrjv ^Tri C1?oi?'
ov p.rjv ISla ye dXXd Koivfj ttjv eTnp.eXeiav exovoav,
D

rore evdiis ayeXaiorpo^iKrjv

Srj
/cai TrpooelTrop.ev
p,ep.vrjoai yap;
ne. 2n. Nai'.
HE. Tavrrjs rolvvv tttj Sirjp.apravop,ev. tov yap
ttoXitlKov ovSap.ov crvveXdfiop.ev ovh" d>vop.doap.ev,
dXX rjp.as eXade Kara ttjv dvop.aoiav eKcf>vycov.
ne. an. Hcos;
HE. Tov ras dyeXas e/caora? rpe^eiv rols p.ev
aXXois ttov Traoi p,ereori vop.evoi, tco TtoXltlKO> Se
ov p,er6v eTrrjveyKap.ev rovvop.a, 8eov tcov Kolvcov
iTreveyKelv tl vp.Traoiv.
E

NE. 2n. 'AXrjdrj Xeyeis, elTrep ervyxave ye ov.


to ye depaTreveiv ttov Traoi
rjv
S'

HE. Ilco? ovK


Kolvov, p.rjSev Siopiodelorjs rpocf>rjs p,rjSe tivos dXXrjs
riva dyeXaioKop.iKrjv
rj3

Trpayp.areias; dXX'

r)
depaTrevriKrjv Kal riva emp,eXrjriKrjv avrrjv
rj

6vop.doaoiv cos Kara Trdvra>v erjv TrepiKaXv,nreiv


heal tov ttoXltlKov dp.a rols dXXois, eTreiSrj Selv
tovt' eo-qp.aivev Xoyos.
6

ne. 2n.
18. dXX' p.era tovto
'Opdcos. 8i-
t)

27G alpeois av riva rpoTrov eylyver' dv;


HE. Kara ravra Kad' dTrep ep.Trpoodev Sirjpovp.eda
rrjv dyeXaiorpocf>iKrjv Tre^ols re /cai d,nrrjoi, /cai
dp.iKrois re Kal aKepdrois, roi? avrols dv ttov
frfririoi Coislin. BT.
1

t}tt}t(ov
;

rj5e Stephanus tI BT.


*

de
:

70
THE STATESMAN
str. And yet they would have to be investigated
with precisely the same care, whether their nature
be like that of their subjects or like that of the
divine shepherd.
y. soc. Of course.
str. Then let us go backto this point : the art
which we said gave its own orders and had to do with
living beings, but had charge of them not singly but
in common, and which we at once called the art of
the herdsman, do you remember ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. Well, it was in connexion with that, some
where, that we made our mistake ; for we never
included or named the statesman ; unobserved by us
he slipped out of our nomenclature.
y. soc. How so ?
str. All the other herdsmen have this in common
that they feed their respective herds ; but the
statesman does not, yet we gave him the name of
herdsman, when we ought to have given him one
which is common to them all.
Y. soc. True, if there were such a name.
str. Is not caring for herds common to them all,
with no especial mention of feeding or any other
activity ? If we called it an art of tending herds or
caring for them or managing them, as all herdsmen
do, we could wrap up the statesman with the rest,
since the argument showed that we ought to do so.
Y. soc. Quite right ; but how would the next
division be made ?
str. Just as we divided the art of feeding herds
before by distinguishing between those that go on foot
and the winged, and the unmixed breeds and the
3
dXV fiXXr^ T.
71
PLATO

tovtois Siaipovp.evoi /cai rrjv dyeXaioKop.iKrjv rr\v


re vvv Kal rrjv eTrl Wpovov fiaoiXelav TrepieiXrjcpores
av rjp.ev op.olcos ev rco Xoyco.
NE. 2n. OcuWtcu m ^rjtcu Se av ti to jxera. tovto.
He. ArjXov 6Vi Xexdevros ovtco tov rrjs dyeXaio-
B Kop.iKrjs ovop.aros ovK av ttot' eyeved' rjp.lv to
rivas dp.cf>iofirjrelv cos ov8' emp,eXeia to TrapdTrav
eoriv, cooTrep rore Si/cai'cd? rjp.cf>iojirjrrjdrj p.rjoep.lav
eivai rexvrjv ev rjp.lv dlav tovtov tov dpeTrriKov
Trpooprjp.aros, el S' ovv tls ehj, TroXXols Trporepov
avrrjs Kal p.aXXov TrpoorjKeiv rj tlvl tcov fiaoiXecov.
ne. in. 'Opdcos.
HE.
'ETri/ieAeia Se ye dvdpunrlvrjs ovp.Traorjs
Koivcovlas ovoep.la dv edeXrjoeiev erepa jiaXXov Kal
Trporepa} trj? fiaoiXiKrjs cf>dvai Kal Kara Travrujv
C avdpcoTrcov dpxrjs eivai rexvrj.
ne. sn. Ae'yei? 6pdd>s.
HE. Mera raura 8e ye, co Sco/cpon.e?, dp' evvoovp.ev
oti Trpos avrco
8rj

tco reXei ovxvov av oirjp.aprd-


vero;
NE. 2Xn. T6 Trolov
;

HE.TdSe, cu? dp' ei /cai oievorjdr)p.ev oti p.dXiora


rrjs SlttoSos dyeXrjs elval riva dpemiKrjv rexvrjv,
ov8ev ti
p.aXXov rjp.ds eSei fiaoiXiKrjv avrrjv evdvs
Kai TroXiriKr]v co? aTrorereXeop,evrjv Trpooayopeveiv .
NE. 2n. Ti p.rjv;
HE. Ylpcorov o
eXeyouev, rovvop.a /xero-
p,ev,
oKevcop,fjoaodai Trpos rrjv emp.eXeiav p.aXXov Trpoo-
D

ayayovras rrjv rpocf>rjv, eTreira ravrrjv rep.veiv


rj

ov yap op.iKpds av exoi rp.rjoeis eri.


ne. sn. tlolas;
Stallbaum T.
1

Trporipa
B

Trpaorepa ,wpaoripa
:

72
THE STATESMAN
hornless, we might divide the art of tending herds
by these same distinctions, embracing in the word
both the kingship of the present time and that of
the time of Cronus.
y. soc. Evidently ; but again I wonder what the
next step is.
str. It is clear that if we had used the word
" tending " herds, we should never have met with
the contention that there is no caring for them at all
in statesmanship, though the earlier contention was
justified that there is no art in the case of human
beings that deserves the name of feeding, and if
there be such an art, it belongs much more to many
others than to the king.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. But no other art would advance a stronger
claim than that of kingship to be the art of caring
for the whole human community and ruling all
mankind.
y. soc. You are right.
str. And after all this, Socrates, do we see that
another great error was committed at the very end ?
y. soc. What was it ?
str. Why, it was this : No matter how strong our
belief that there was an art of feeding the biped
herd, we ought not to have called it kingship and
statecraft on the spot, as if it were all quite settled.
y. soc. What ought we to have done, then ?
str. In the first place, as we said, we ought to
have remodelled the name, making it denote care,
rather than feeding, and then we ought to have
divided the art, for it may still admit of not un
important divisions.
y. soc. What are they ?

73
PLATO

HE. rHi re tov delov dv ttov SieiAo/xe0a vop.ea


xcopls Kal tov dvdpcomvov imp.eXrjrrjv .
NE. 2n. 'Opdd>s.
HE. ASdis ttjv aTrovep.rjdelaav eTrip,eXrjriKrjv
Se ye
Slxa rep.veiv dvayKalov rjv.
NE. 2n. TiVi;
HE. Tco /Jiaio> re Kal eKovolcp.
NE. 2n. TV Sij;
HE. Kai ravrrj ttov to Trporepov dp.apravovres
E evTjdeorepa tov 8eovros els tovtov fiaoiXea Kal
rvpavvov vvedep.ev, dvop.oiorarovs OTTO? avrovs
re Kal tov tr)s dpxqs eKarepov rpoTrov.
NE. 2n. 'AXrjdrj.
HE. Nw Se ye ttoXlv eTravopdovp,evoi, KaddTrep
eiTrov, trjv dvdpcoTriv'qv eTrip.eXrjriKrjv Si'^a Siaipco-
p,eda, tco /Jiaico re /cai eKovolco;
ne. 2n. Iltvu /u.ev oSv.
HE. Kai tr)^ /ieV ye ttov tcov fiialcov rvpavviKrjv,
trjv Se eKovoiov Kal IKovctlcdv Sltt68cov dyeXaioKo-
pUKrjv t,cpcov TrpooeiTrovres ttoXltlKrjv, tov exovra aii
rexvrjv ravrrjv Kal emp.eXeiav ovtcds ovto fiaoiXea
Kal ttoXltlKov aTrocf>aivcop,eda;
277 19. NE, 2n. Kai Kivovvevei ye, d> eve, reXecos
dv rjp.lv ovtcos e'^eiv r) Trepl tov ttoXltlKov dTr68eiis.
HE. KaAd>? dv. co HcoKpares, rjp.lv exoi. Sel Se p.rj
ool p.6vco ravra, dXXd Kap.ol p,era oov Koivfj vv-
SoKelv. vvv Se Koto ye trjv ep.rjv ovttco cf>alverai
reXeov 6 fiaoiXevs r)p.lv o-xfjp.a e^eiv, dAAo KaddTrep
dv8piavroTroiol Kaipov evlore oTrevSovres
Trapd
TrXeluj Kal p,el^co tov 8eovros e/caora rcov epycov
B eTrep.fiaXXop,evoi fipaSvvovoi, Kal vvv rjp.els, Iva

74
THE STATESMAN
str. There is one by which we might have divided
the divine shepherd from the human caretaker.
Y. soc. Quite right.
str. And ,again it was essential that the art of
caretaking thus isolated and assigned to man be
divided into two parts.
y. soc. On what line of division ?
str. On that of compulsory and voluntary.
y. soc. Why is that ?
str. Because this was about the point at which
we made our mistake before ; we were more simple-
minded than we should have been, and we put the
king and the tyrant together, whereas they and
their respective modes of ruling are quite unlike.
y. soc. True.
str. But now shall we, as I said, correct ourselves
and divide the care of humanity into two parts, by
the criterion of the compulsory and the voluntary ?
Y. soc. By all means.
str. And if we rail the art of those who use com
pulsion tyrannical or something of the sort and the
voluntary care of voluntary bipeds political, may we
not declare that he who possesses this latter art of
caretaking is really the true king and statesman ?
y. soc. Well, Stranger, it looks as though our
account of the statesman were complete now.
str. That would be a fine thing for us, Socrates.
But not you alone must think so ; I must think so,
too, in agreement with you. As a matter of fact,
however, in my opinion our figure of the king is
not yet perfect, but like statue-makers who some
times in their misapplied enthusiasm make too
numerous and too large additions and thus delay the
completion of their several works, we too, at this
75
PLATO

rap
S1j
Trpos tco Kal p.eyaXoTrpeTrd>s 8rjXcooaip.ev
to rrjs ap.dprrjp.a SieoSov, roi /JaoiAei
ep.Trpoodev
vop.ioavres TrpeTreiv p.eydXa TrapaSelyp.ara Troiel-
odai, davp.aor6v oyKov dpdp.evoi tov p.vdov, p,eC^ovi
tov 8eovros rjvayKdodrjp,ev avrov p.epei Trpoo-
xprjoaodai, 8l6 p.aKporepav rrjv dTr68eiiv TreTroirj-
Kap,ev /cai Trdvrcos tai p.vdcp reXos ovK eTredep,ev,
dXX' drexvcbs Xoyos rjpuv cLoTrep ^coov tr)v
C

6
ecodev p.ev Trepiypacf>rjv eoiKev lKavcos %\eiv> rijv
Se olov tols cf>app.aKois Kal rfj ovyKpdoei rcov
xpcop.drcov evdpyeiav ovK dTreiXrj^evai Trco. ypacf>rjs
Se Kal ovpnrdwqs xeipovpylas ^ei Kal Xoycp
SrjXovv Trav ^coov p.aXXov TrpeTrei tols 8vvap,evois
eTreodar tols
S'

dXXois S1a ^eipoupyidiv.


ne. sn. Tovto p,ev 6pdcos' oTrrj Se rjp.iv ovTtco
^2j? iKavcos elprjodai SrjXcooov.
D He. XaAeTrdv, 8aip.6vie, TrapaSelyp.aoi
cL

p.rj
xpcop.evov iKavcos evSeiKvvodal ri tuov p,ei^6vcov.
Kiv8vvevei yap rjp.cov eKaoros olov ovap el8cos
dVavra Trdvr' av TrdXiv cooTrep vTrap dyvoelv.
ne. 2n. Ylcos tout' enres;
HE. Kai p.dX' aroTrcos eoi/ca ye ev rco Trapovri
Kwrjoas to Trepl rrjs emorrjp.rjs Trddos ev rjp.lv.
ne. 2n. Srj; Ti
IlapaSeiyp.aro?, p.aKapie, av p.oi Kal to
c3

HE.
TrapaSeiy/ia avro 8eSerjKev.
Ti
E

ne. 2n. ouv; Ae'ye p.rjSev ep.ov ye eveKa


aTroKvo>v.

the nature of example to be explained below


is

.e.
1

by means of an example. The example of the letters of


the alphabet employed also in the Theaetetus 202 ff.,
is

but the Stranger cannot properly refer to that, as he was


76
THE STATESMAN
time, wishing to make quick progress, and also to
make clear in a grand style the error of our previous
course, and, moreover, fancying that the use of great
illustrations was proper in the case of a king, have
taken up a marvellous mass of myth and have con
sequently been obliged to use a greater part of it
than we should. So we have made our discourse
too long and after all have never made an end of
the tale, but our talk, just like a picture of a living
creature, seems to have a good enough outline, but
not yet to have received the clearness that comes
from pigments and the blending of colours. And
yet it is more fitting to portray any living being
by speech and argument than by painting or any
handicraft whatsoever to persons who are able to
follow argument ; but to others it is better to do it
by means of works of craftsmanship.
y. soc. That is true ; but explain wherein you
think our exposition is still deficient.
str. It is dilficult, my dear fellow, to set forth any
of the greater ideas, except by the use of examples ;
for it would seem that each of us knows everything
that he knows as if in a dream and then again,
when he is as it were awake, knows nothing of it all.
y. soc. What do you mean by that ?
str. I seem at present in absurd fashion to have
touched upon our experience in regard to knowledge.
y. soc. In what respect ?
str. Why, my friend, the very example I employ
requires another example.1
y. soc. Indeed ? What is it ? Don't hesitate
to tell on my account.
not present at the time. Or is this a dramatic slip on
Plato's part ?
77
PLATO
20. HE. AeKreov, eTrei8rj /cai ov ye eroi/io?
aKoXovdelv . rovs yap ttov Traloas lop.ev, orav apri
ypap.p.drcov ep.Treipoi ylyvcovrai
ne. 2n. To ttolov;
HE. "Ori rcov oroixelu)v eKaorov ev rals fipaxvrd-
rais /cai pdorais r&v avXXafidv iKavd>s oiaiodd-
vovrai, /cai rdXrjdrj cf>pd^eiv Trepl eKelva 8vvarol
ylyvovr ai.
278 ne. 2n. Yldis ydp ov;
HE. Tavra 8e ye ravra ev dXXais dp.cf>iyvoovvres
TrdXiv 86Ti re ifievSovrai /cai Xoyco.
NE. 2n. Havv p.ev ovv.
HE. TAp' ovv ovx coSe paorov Kal KdXXiorov eTr-
dyeiv avroi>s eTrl ta pvrynoj yiyvcooK6p.eva ;
ne. ta. Ilcu?;
HE. 'Avdyeiv Trpd>rov eTr' eKelva, ev oi? ravrd
ravra 6pdcos dvayayovras 8e ridevai
eSoa^ov,
B Trapd ra pvryno) yiyvcooKop,eva, Kal TrapajidXXovras
evSeiKvvvai rrjv airrjv op.oiorrjra Kal cf>voiv ev
dp.cf>orepais ovoav rai? p,expnrep av
ovp.TrXoKals,
ttdoi rols dyvoovp.evois rd Soa^6p.eva dXrjdcos
Traparidep.eva Seixdfj, Seixdevra 8e, TrapaSelyp.ara
ovrco yiyvop,eva, Troirjorj tcov oroixelcov Trdvrcov
eKaorov ev Trdoais rals ovXXafials to p.ev
erepov d>s rcov dXXu>v erepov dv, to Se
C ravrov cos ravrov del Kara ravra eavrco Trpoo-
ayopeveodai.
ne. sn. IlavraVaoi p,ev odv.
HE. OvKovv rovro p.ev i/cavco? ovveiXrjcf>ap,ev , ori

There is here a play on the words Trapa-r id ifieva deixSrj,


1

Seixdivra 5c,, Trapa-Selyfiara. Placed beside, they are shown,


78
THE STATESMAN
str. I will tell, since you on your part are
prepared to listen. We know that children, when
they are just getting some knowledge of letters ,
y. soc. Well ?

str. Recognize the several letters well enough in


the short and easy syllables, and can make correct
statements about them.
Y. soc. Yes, of course.
str. And then again in other syllables they are
in doubt about those same letters, and err in opinion
and speech about them.
y. soc. Yes, certainly.
str. Would not the easiest and best way to lead
them to the letters which they do not yet know
be this ?
Y. soc. What ?
str. To lead them first to those cases in which
they had correct opinions about these same letters
and then to lead them and set them beside the
groups which they did not yet recognize and by
comparing them to show that their nature is the
same in both combinations alike, and to continue
until the letters about which their opinions are
correct have been shown in juxtaposition with all
those of which they are ignorant. Being shown in
this way they become examples and bring it about
1

that every letter is in all syllables always called by


the same name, either by dilferentiation from the
other letters, in case it is dilferent, or because it is
the same.
Y. soc. Certainly.
str. Is this, then, a satisfactory definition, that
and being shown, they become paradigms, i.e. objects of
comparison, i.e. examples.
79
PLATO

Trapaoelyp.aros y eorl rore yeveois, oTrorav ov


ravrov ev erepcp SieoTraop,evcp Soa^6p,evov opdd>s
Kal ovvaxdev Trepl eKarepov cos ovvdp.cf>co p.lav
dXrjdrj ooijav dTroreXfj;
NE. 2n. Q>alverai.
HE. Qavp.d^oip.ev av ovv, el ravrov rovro rjp.cov r)
i/lu^r) cf>voei Trepl rd rcov Trdvrcov oroixeia TreTrovdvla
D rore p,ev vtt dXrjdelas Trepl ev eKaorov ev rioi ovv-
lorarai, rore Se Trepl dTravra ev erepois av cf>eperai,
Kal rd p.ev avrcov rcov ovyKpdoecov
dp.fj ye Trrj
opdd>s Soaei, p.eraridep.eva S' els rds rcov Trpay-
p.drcov p.aKpds Kal p.rj paolovs ovXXafias ravrd
ravra TrdXiv ayvoel;
NE. 2n. Kai davp.aorov ye ov8ev.
HE. Hcos ydp, co cf>lXe, Svvairo av ris apxop.evos
aTr6 86rjs (AeuSou? em n
rrjs dXrjdelas Kal p.iKpov
E p.epos d^iKouevos Krrjoaodai cf>p6vrjoiv;
NE. 2n. X^eSov ovSap.cos.
OvKovv ravra el ravrrj Trecf>vKev, ov8ev

S1j
HE.
TrXrjp.ueXolp,ev av eyco re Kal ov Trpcorov p,ev em^ei-
prjoavres oXov Trapaoelyp.aros loeiv rrjv cf>voiv ev
opuKpcp Kara p,epos dXXip TrapaSelyp.ari,
p,erd Se
ravra p.eXXovres, eTrl r6 rov fiaoiXecos p,eyiorov ov
ravrov elSos aTr' eXarrovcov cf>epovres Trodev, Sid
Trapaoelyp.aros emxeipelv aS rrjv rcov Kara TroXiv
depaTrelav rexvrj yvcopl^eiv, iva vTrap avr' dvelparos
rjp.lv ylyvrjrai;
ne. 2n. Havv p,ev ovv opdcos.
j79 HE. HdXiv
8rj

rov ep.Trpoodev Xoyov dvaXrjTrreov,


cos eTreiSrj rcp fiaoiXiKco yevei rrjs Trepl rds TroXeis
S1j

eTriueXelas dp.cf>io0rjrovoi Sei p.vploi,


Trdvras
aTroxcopi^eiv rovrovs Kal p,6vov eKeivov XelTreiv, Kal
80
THE STATESMAN
an example is formed when that which is the same
in some second unconnected thing is rightly con
ceived and compared with the first, so that the two
together form one true idea ?
y. soc. Evidently.
str. Can we wonder, then, that our soul, whose
nature involves it in the same uncertainty about the
letters or elements of all things, is sometimes in
some cases firmly grounded in the truth about every
detail, and again in other cases is all at sea about
everything, and somehow or other has correct
opinions about some combinations, and then again is
ignorant of the same things when they are trans
ferred to the long and difficult syllables of life ?
y. soc. Surely we need not wonder at that.
str. No ; for could anyone, my friend, who
begins with false opinion, ever attain to even a small
part of truth and acquire wisdom ?
y. soc. No ; it is hardly possible.
sTn. Then if this is the case, would it be a bad
thing if you and I first tried to see in another small
and partial example the nature of example in general,
with the intention of transferring afterwards the same
figurative method from lesser things to the most
exalted eminence of the king, and trying by means
of an example to become acquainted in a scientific
way with the management of states, in order that
this may be waking knowledge for us, not dream
knowledge ?
Y. soc. That is a very good idea.
str. Then we must take up our former argument
again, and since there are countless others who con
tend that they, rather than the royal class, have the
care of states, we must accordingly remove all these
VoL. Ill g 81
PLATO

8rj
Trpos tovto TrapaSelyp.aros ecf>ap.ev Selv tivos
rjp.lv.
ne. sn. Kai p.dXa.
21. be. Ti
Srjra TrapaSeiyp.d tls dv, exov ttjv
avrqv ttoXitlKt}1 Trpayp.arelav, op.iKporarov Trapa-
to ^rjrovp,evov
B

defxevos IKolvcos Sv evpoi fiovXei

;
Aid?, ti Trp6xeipov erepov

el
Trpos HcoKpares,
co

exop.ev, dXX' ow trjv ye vcf>avriKrjv TrpoeXiLp.eda

;
Kal ravrrjv, SoKel, p.rj Traoav; aTroxprjoei yap
el

locos Trepl rd eK tcov eplcov vd>dop.ara, raxa yap


rj

av rjpuv Kal tovto to p.epos avrrjs p.aprvprjoeie


Trpoaipedev o fiovXop,eda.
NE. 2n. I1 yap ov;
HE. Tl orjra ov, KadaTrep ev tols epnrpoodev
reixvovres p.eprj p.epcov eKaorov Sifjpovp.eda, /cai
vvv Trepl vcf>avriKrjv tovtov tovto e8pdoap,ev, Kal
C

Kara Svvajiiv otl /iaAicrra Sid fipaxecov raxv Travr


eTreXdovres ,ndXiv rjXdop,ev em to vvv ^p^ai/xov;
ne. 2n. Hcos Xeyeis;
HE. Avttjv ttjv oieooov aTroKpiolv ooi Troirjoop.ai.
NE. 2n. KaAAiar' eiWc.
HE. "Eori tolvvv Trdvra rjf,uv oTrooa 0rjp.iovpyov-
p.ev Kal Krcop.eda, ra p.ev eW/ca tov Troielv ti, ta 8e
tov p.rj Trdoxeiv a/iwrijpia2, Kal tcov ap,vvrqplcov3
ta p.ev dXeuf>dpp.aKa Kal dela Kal dvdpcomva, ta
D 8e TrpofiXrjp.ara, tcov Se TrpofiXrjp.drcov ta p.ev Trpos
tov Tr6Xep.ov oTrXlop.ara, ta Se cf>pdyp.ara' Kal tcov
cf>payp.arcov to. p.ev TrapaTreraop.ara, to. Se Trpos
%eip.covas Kal Kavp.ara dXerjrrjpia' tcov 8e dXerj-

Ast BT.
1

Tro\lrlKr) Tro\irlKT)v
:

A\e^irripia BT.
2

dfivvrr}f>ia]
altwrripiwv] dXefirr/pi'wc BT.
3
THE STATESMAN
and isolate the king ; and, as we said, to accom
plish this we need an example.
y. soc. Certainly.
str. What example could we apply which is very
small, but has the same kind of activity as statesman
ship and would enable us satisfactorily to discover
that which we seek ? What do you say, Socrates, if
we have nothing else at hand, to taking at random
the art of weaving, and, if you please, not the
whole of that ? For I fancy the art of weaving wool
will be enough ; if we choose that part only it will
probably furnish us with the illustration we desire.
y. soc. Agreed.
str. Then just as we divided each subject before
by cutting olf parts from parts, why not now apply
the same process to the art of weaving and, by
going through all the steps as briefly as we possibly
can, arrive quickly at that which serves our present
purpose ?
Y. soc. What do you mean ?
str. I will answer you by actually going through
the process.
y. soc. Excellent !
str. Well, then, all things which we make or
acquire are for the sake of doing something or else
they are for defence against sulfering ; and of the
defensive class some are spells and antidotes, both
divine and human, and some are material defences ;
and of the material defences some are equipment
for war and some are protections ; and of protections
some are screens and some are defences against heat

88
PLATO

rrjplcov tol p.ev oreydop.ara, ta Se oKeTrdop.ara' Kal


to>v oKeTraop.drcov vTrorrerdop.ara p,ev dXXa, Trepi-
KaXvp.p.ara Se erepor TrepiKaXvp.p,drcov Se ra p,ev
E oAoo^ictra, ovvdera Se erepa' tcov Se o-wdirroov ra
p.ev rprjrd, ta Se dvev rprjoecos ovvSerd, /cai tcov
arprjrcov ra p.ev vevpiva c(>vtcov eK yrjs, rd Se rplxiva .
tcov Se rpixlvcov ra p,ev v8aoi Kal /coAAtitci, rd
Se auroi? owSera. toutoicti
aura tols sK

Sr)
tcov eavrols ovvSovp.evcov1 epyaodeloiv ap.vvrJjplois
Kal oKeTrdoiiaoi to p,ev ovop.a Ip.dria eKaXeoap.ev
ttjv Se tcov IpMrlcOv p.dXiora emp.eXovp.evrjv rexvrjv,
280 axTTrep rore ttjv rrjs TroXecos
ttoXitiK^v elTrop.ev,
ovtco Kal vvv ravrrjv Trpooe'nrcop,ev aV avrov tov
Trpdyp.aros Ip.ariovpyiKTp> cf>cop.ev Se Kal vcf>avri-
;

rjv
Krjv, oo~ov eTri rfj tcov [p.arlcov epyaola p.eyiorov
p.6piov, p.rjSev Siacf>epeiv TrXrjv ovop.ari raurTi? rrjs
lp.ariovpyiKrjs, KaddTrep /cd/cel rore rrjv jiaoiXiKrjv
rrj? TroXiriKrjs
;

ne. zn. ,Opd6rara ye


To /iero rovro ori trjv
Sr)

HE. ovXXoyiocop.eda,
lp.aricov vcf>avriKrjv ovtco prjdeiodv ris rax' av IKavcos
elprjodai Soeie, p.rj 8vvdp,evos gvvvoeU/ ori tcov
B

p.ev iyyvs vvepycov ovtto> Sicopiorai, TroXXd>v Se


erepcov vyyevcov dTrep.eplodrj .
ne. 2n. Holcov, etVe, vyyevo>v
;

22. HE. Oi5^ eoTrov tols Xexdeioiv, ibs ipouvef


TrdXiv ovv eoiKev hravireov dpxop,evov dTro tcAcutrJ?.
yap vvvoeis ttjv oiKeiorrjra, rrjv
el

p.ev 81erep.op,ev

eavrols avvSovliiviov] ai/rw B) avvSovlitvois BT.


1

{avraiv
84
THE STATESMAN
and cold ; and such defences are either shelters or
coverings ; and coverings are either rugs to spread
under us or wrappings to wrap round us ; and
wrappings are either all of one piece or composed of
several pieces ; and of the composite garments some
are stitched and others put together without stitch
ing ; and of the unstitched some are made of the
fibres of plants and some are of hair ; and of those
made with hair some are stuck together with liquids
and cement and others are fastened without any
such extraneous matter. Now to these protective
coverings made of materials fastened without ex
traneous matter we give the name of clothes ; and
just as we called the art statecraft which was con
cerned with the state, so we shall call the art con
cerned with clothes, from the nature of its activity,
clothes-making, shall we not ? And may we say
further that weaving, in so far as the greatest part
of it is, as we saw, concerned with the making of
clothes, dilfers in name only from this art of clothes-
making, just as in the other case the royal art
dilfered from statecraft ?
y. soc. That is perfectly correct.
str. Let us next rellect that a person might
think that this description of the art of weaving was
satisfactory, because he cannot understand that it
has not yet been distinguished from the closely
co-operative arts, though it has been separated from
many other kindred arts.
y. soc. What kindred arts ?
str. You do not seem to have followed what I
have been saying ; so I think I had better go back
again and begin at the end. For if you under
stand what I mean by kinship, we distinguished
85
PLATO

cot' avrrjs vvv 8rj, tr)v td>v orpcop.drcav ovvdeoiv


TrepijioXfj xcopl^ovres Kal vTrofioXfj.
NE. 2n. Mavddvco.
C HE. Kai p.rjv rrjv eK rcov Xlvo>v Kal cnrdprcov
Kal Travrow oTrooa cf>vtcov dpri vevpa Kara Xoyov el-
Trop.ev, Srjp.iovpylav Traoav dcf>elXop.ev trjv r' av
mXrjriKrjv dcf>copiodp.eda Kal trjv rprjoei Kal pacf>fj
xpcop.evrjv ovvdeoiv,

tfs
TrXelorrj oKvrorop.iK-q

rj
.

ne. sn. Yldvv p.ev oSv.


HE. Kai tolvvv rrjv
tcov oXoot^lotcov oKeTraop.d-
ro>v depaTrelav Sepp.arovpyiKrjv Kal ra? tcov oreya-
op.dru>v, ooxu re ev oiKoSop.iKrj Kal oXrj reKroviKrj
Kal ev dXXais re^vai? pevp.drcov ore/cri/cal yly-
D

vovrai, ovp.Trdoas acf>elXop.ev, oom re1 'nepl ras


/cAorrd?2 Kal ras /Ji'a Trpdeis Sia/ccoAun/cd epya
Trapexpvrai rexvai cf>payp.aru>v Trepl re yeveoiv
,

imdrjp.arovpylas ovoai Kal rds rcov dvpcop.dro>v


aTrovep,rjdeloai p.6pca rexas'
Trrjeis, yop.cf>coriKrjs
T1jv re ottXottouKrjv aTr6rep.6p,eda, p,eydXTjs Kal
Travrolas rrjs TrpofiXqp.arovpyiKrjs rp.rjp.a ovoav
Kai rrjv p.ayevriKrjv tTjv 'nepl rd
8tj

8vvdp.ecos' Kal
dXeicf>dpp.aKa Kar' apxas evdvs Sicopiodp.eda vp.-
E

Traoav, Kal XeXolTrap.ev, d>s 86aip.ev dv, avrrjv rrjv


Z^rrjdeioav dp.vvriKrjv ^ei/xawcov, epeov TrpofiXr}p.a-
ros epyaoriKrjv, dvop.a 8e vcf>avriKrjv Xexdeioav .
ne. sn. "Eoi/ce yap ovv.
HE. 'AAA' ovK eori Trco reXeov co Tral, tovto Xe-
,

Xeyp.evov. yap ev dpxfj rr)s rd>v lp.aricov epy aolas


6

281 amop.evos tovvovtlov vcf>fj 8pav cf>alverai.


NE. 2n. Hcos;

teD: om. BT.


1

kXott&s] TrXo/cas BT.


2

86
THE STATESMAN
from clothing something akin to it a moment ago
when we separated rugs from it hy the distinction
between spreading under and wrapping round.
y. soc. I understand.
str. And we removed the entire manufacture of
cloth made from flax and broom-cords and all that we
just now called vegetable fibres ; and then, too, we
separated olf the process of felting and the kind of
joining that employs piercing and sewing, most
important of which is the shoemaker's art.
y. soc. Yes, to be sure.
str. And we separated olf the art of making
coverings of leather in single pieces and all the arts
of making shelters, which we find in house-building
and carpentering in general and in other methods
of protection against water, and all the arts which
furnish protection against theft and acts of violence,
the arts, that is to say, of making lids and constructing
doors, which are regarded as parts of the joiner's
art ; and we cut olf the armourer's art, which is a
section of tile great and various function of making
defences ; and at the very beginning we cut olf the
whole art of magic which is concerned with antidotes
and spells, and we have left, as it would seem, just
the art we were seeking, which furnishes protection
from the weather, manufactures a defence of wool,
and is called the art of weaving.
y. soc. That seems to be the case.
str. But, my boy, this is not yet completely
stated ; for the man who is engaged in the first
part of the making of clothes appears to do some
thing the opposite of weaving.
y. soc. How so ?

87
PLATO

HE. To p.ev rrjs vcf>rjs ovp.TrXoKrj rls eorl ttov.


ne. 2n. Nai.
HE. To oe ye tcov ovveorcorcov Kal ovp.TreTriXrj-
p.evcov SiaAun/oj.
ne. 2n. 16 ttolov Srj;
HE. To rrjs tov alvovros rexvrjs epyov. rj ttjv
avriKrjv roXp.rjoop,ev vcf>avriKr]v Kal tov dvrrjv d>s
ovra vcf>dvrrjv KoXelv;
NE. 2n. OuSa/idi?.
HE. Kai p.rjv rrjv ye av or"jp.ovos epyaoriKrjv /cai
KpoKrjs ei ri? vcf>avriKrjv Trpooayopevei, TrapdSoov
B re /cai ifievSos ovop.a Ae'yei.
NE. 2n. Ilcos yap ov;
HE. Ti ovprnaoav Kal ttjv d/ce-
Se; Kvacf>evtiKrjv
orriKrjv Trorepa p.rjSep.lav eTrip,eXeiav p.rfie riva
depaTrelav eodrjros dcop.ev, r) /cai ravras Trdoas cos
u^avn/cci? Xeop,ev ;
ne. sn. Oi)Sa/ico?.
HE. 'AAAd p.rjv rrjs ye depaTrelas dp.cf>io^rjr-j-
oovoiv avrai vp.Traoai Kal rrjs yeveoecos rrjs tcov
lp.aricov rfj rrjs vcf>avriKrjs Svvdp,ei, p.eyiorov fiev
p.epos eKelvrj SiSouaai, p.eydXa 8e Kal ocf>loiv
avrals aTrovep.ovoai.
C ne. 2n. Yldvv ye.
HE. Ilpo? tolvvv ravrais eri to? tcov epyaXelcov
8rjp.iovpyovs rexvas, Si' cLv dTroreXelrai to rrjs vcf>rjs
epya, So/celv xprj to ye1 ovvairias elvai TrpooTroirj-
oaodai Travros vcf>dop.aros .

ne. 2X1. 'Opdorara.


HE.Ylorepov ovv rjjuv 6 Trepl rrjs icf>avriKrjs
Xoyos, ov TrpoeiXop,eda p.epovs, iKavcos eorai Sicopi-
op.evos, edv dp' avrrjv tojv emp,eXeicov oTrooai Trepl
88
THE STATESMAN
str. The process of weaving is, I take it, a kind
of joining together.
y. soc. Yes.
str. But the first part I refer to is a separation of
what is combined and matted together.
y. soc. What do you mean ?
stu. The work of the carder's art. Or shall we
have the face to say that carding is weaving and
the carder is a weaver?
y. soc. No, certainly not.
str. And surely if we say the art of making the
warp or the woof is the art of weaving, we are
employing an irrational and false designation.
y. soc. Of course.
str. Well then, shall we say that the whole arts
of fulling and mending are no part of the care and
treatment of clothes, or shall we declare that these
also are entirely included in the art of weaving ?
y. soc. By no means.
str. But surely all these will contest the claim of
the art of weaving in the matter of the treatment and
the production of clothes ; they will grant that the
part of weaving is the most important, but will claim
that their own parts are of some importance, too.
y. soc. Yes, certainly.
str. Then we must believe that besides these the
arts which produce the tools by means of which the
works of weaving are accomplished will claim to be
collaborators in every work of weaving.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. Will our definition of the art of weaving (I
mean the part of it we selected) be satisfactory if
we say that of all the activities connected with
1
ye] te BT.
89
PLATO

rrjv epedv eodrjra, els rrjv KaXXlorrjv Kal p.eylorrjv


D Traocov ridcop.ev r) Xeyoip,ev p.ev dv tl dXrjdes, ov
firjv oacf>es ye oi)Se reXeov, Trplv dv1 /cai ravras
avrrjs Trdoas TrepieXcop.ev ;
ne. 2n. 'Op#cu?.
23. HE. OvKovv juerd ravra Troirjreov 0 Ae'yo-
jiiev, a>' icf>erjs rjpXv 6 Aoyo? irj;
ne. IlcD? S' ou;
HEtYlpa>rov p.kv tolvvv Svo rixyas ovoas Trepl
Troma rd 8pcop.eva deaocop.eda.
ne. sn. TiVa?;
HE. Trj]/ /Liev yeveoecos ovoav vvalriov, rrjv S'
avrrjv air lav.
ne. 2n. Ilco?;
HE. "Oom /iev to Trpayp.a avro p.rj Srjpu.ovpyovoi,
E rals Se Srjp.iovpyovoais opyava TrapaoKevdtflvoiv ,
cLv pvrj Trapayevop.eva>v ovK dv Trore ipyaodelrj to
Trpoorerayp.ivov eKaorrj rd>v rexvcov, ravras p.kv
vvairlovs, ras Se avro to Trpdyp.a dTrepya^opievas
aIr las.
ne. sn. "E^ei yow Aoyov.
Srj

HE. Merd touto ra? /xev Trepi re drpaKrovs


Kal KepKl8as Kal oTrooa aAAa opyava rrjs Trepl ra
dp.cf>ieop.ara yeveoecos Koivcovel} Trdoas vvairlovs
elTrcop.ev, rd? Se aura depaTrevovoas Kal Srjp.iovp-
yovoas alrlas;
ne. sn. 'Opdorara.
282 HE. Taiv airiuV TrAwri/cijv /iev Kal aKeori-
Sr)

/cr)v /cai Traoav rrjv Trepl ravra deparrevriKrjv, TroXXrjs


ovo-qs rrjs Koop.rjriKrjs, rovvravda avrrjs p.opiov
elK6s p.dXiora TrepiXap.fidveiv 6vop.d^ovras Trav rfj
rexvrj rfj Kvacf>evtiKrj.
90
THE STATESMAN
woollen clothing it is the noblest and the greatest ?
Or would that, although it contains some truth, yet
lack clearness and completeness until we separate
from weaving all these other arts ?
y. soc. You are right.
str. Then shall our next move be to do this, that
our discussion may proceed in due order ?
y. soc. Certainly.
sth. First, then, let us observe that there are two
arts involved in all production.
y. soc. What are they ?
str. The one is a contingent cause, the other
is the actual cause.
y. soc. What do you mean ?
str. Those arts which do not produce the actual
thing in question, but which supply to the arts
which do produce it the tools without which no art
could ever perform its prescribed work, may be
called contingent causes, and those which produce
the actual thing are causes.
y. soc. At any rate, that is reasonable.
str. Next, then, shall we designate all the arts
which produce spindles, shuttles, and the various
other tools that partake in the production of clothing
as contingent causes, and those which treat and
manufacture the clothing itself as causes ?
y. soc. Quite right.
str. And among the causal arts we may properly
include washing and mending and all the care of
clothing in such ways ; and, since the art of adorn
ment is a wide one, we may classify them as a part
of it under the name of fulling.

1
&x] at BT.
91
PLATO

NE. 2n. KaXcos.


HE. Kai avriKrj ye Kal vrjoriKrj1 Kal Trdvra
p.rjv
av ra

Jjs
Trepl rrjv Troiqaiv avrrjv rrjs iodrjros Xeyop.ev
p.eprj, p.la tIs cctti rexvrj tcov vrto TravTcov Xeyop.evcov
raXaoiovpyiKrj.
rj

NE. 2n. Wcos yap ov;


B

8rj
Trjs
HE. raXaoiovpyiKrjs Svo r/x^/xara lorov,
Kal tovtoiv eKarepov dp.a Svdlv Trecf>vKarov rexvalv
p.eprj.
ne. sa. Hcos;
HE. To p.ev avtlKov Kal ro rrjs KepKloriKrjs
rjpiov Kal ooa ta vyKelp,eva aTr' dXXrjXcov dcf>loTijoi,
Trav tovto d>s ev cf>pd^eiv rrjs re raXaoiovpylas
avrrjs Iorl ttov, Kal p,eydXa rive /card Trdvra rjp.lv
rjor,qv rexva, ovyKpiriKrj re Kal SiaKpiriKrj.
r)

ne. 2n. Nai.


HE. Trjs tolvvv SiaKpiriKrjs re avriKrj Kal tcl
rj

prjdevra dTravra eoriv


orj

vvv ydp ev eplois re


C

r)

Kal orrjp.ooi oiaKpiriKrj KepKiSi p.ev dXXov rpoTrov


,

yiyvop.ivrj, xepoi ^ erepw, eoxev ooa dpri'o>?


6v6p.ara epprjdrj.
ne. 2n. IldVu p,ev ovv.
orj

HE. ASdisTrdXiv orvyKpiriKrjs p.6pcov ap.a Kal


raXaoiovpylas ev avrfj yiyvop.evov Xdficop,ev ooa
ok rrjs oiaKpiriKrjs rjv, avrodc p.edicop.ev2 vpnravra,
Si'^a rep.vovres rrjv raXaoiovpylav SiaKpiriKco re
Kal ovyKpiriKo> rp.rjp.ari.
NE. 2n. Aifjprjodco.
HE. To ovyKpiriKov tolvvv av ooi Kal raXa-
Stephanus
1

^avriK^i . . . vt}cttckr} EamKi)v . vt)cjtikt)v


:

BT.
Hermann BT.
a

fie0ia>fi(v ficriwfiev
:

92
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. Good.
str. And, again, carding and spinning and all the
processes concerned with the actual fabrication of the
clothing under consideration, form collectively one
art familiar to every one the art of wool-working.
y. soc. Of course.
str. And wool-working comprises two divisions,
and each of these is a part of two arts at once.
y. soc. How is that ?
str. Carding, and one half of the use of the weaver's
rod,1 and the other crafts which separate things that
are joined all this collectively is a part of the art
of wool-working ; and in all things we found two
great arts, that of composition and that of division.
y. soc. Yes.
str. Now carding and all the other processes just
mentioned are parts of the art of division ; for the
art of division in wool and threads, exercised in one
way with the rod and in another with the hands, has
all the names just mentioned.
y. soc. Yes, certainly.
str. Then let us again take up something which
is at once a part of the arts of composition and of
wool-working. Let us put aside all that belongs to
division, making two parts of wool- working, by apply
ing the principles of division and of composition.
Y. soc. Let us make that distinction.
str. The part which belongs at once to com-
1
The weaver's rod (for the Greeks appear to have used a
rod, not a comb) was used to drive the threads of the woof
close together, and also to keep the threads of the warp and
woof distinct (cf. Craiylus 388 a). All the processes here
described, familiar as they were to the ancients, have been
done away with, or, at least, greatly modified, in Europe
and America by the modern methods of industry.
93
PLATO

D oiovpyiKov dp.a p.6piov, co EuWpare?, Siaipereov,


e'nrep iKavcos p.eXXop,ev t1jv Trpopprjdeloav vcf>avriKrjv
alprjoeiv.
ne. sn. OvKovv xprj,
HE. Xpij p.ev ovv Kal Xeycop,ev ye avrrjs to p.ev
elvai orpeTrriKov, to Se ovp.TrXeKriKov.
NE. TAp' ovv p.avddvco; SoKels yap p.oi to
Trspl rrjv rov orrjp.ovos epyaolav X4yiv orpeTrrlKov.
HE. Oi5 p.6vov ye, dXXd Kal KpoKrjs' rj yeveoiv
dorpofyov riva avrrjs evprjoop.ev;
ne. 2n. OuSa/xoi?.
Aiopioai Kal tovtoiv eKa/repov "eta? yap
Sr)

HE.
Siopiop.6s eyKaipos dv ooi yevoiro.
E
6

NE. sn. Ufj;


HE. TfjSe' rcov Trepl avriKrjv epycov p,rjKvvdev
re Kal o-xpv TrXaros Xeyop.ev elvai Karayp.d ri;
ne. sn. Nai.
HE. Tovtov to p.ev arpaKrco re orpacf>ev Kal
Sr)

orepeov vrjp.a yevop,evov orrjp.ova p.ev cf>ddi to vrjp.a,


tt)v Se aTrevdvvovoav avro rexvrjv elvai orrjp.ovovrj-
rlKrjv.
ne. sn. 'Opdcos.
HE. "Ooa Se ye ai5 tr)v p.ev ovorpo^rjv xav\rqv
Xap.jidvei, rrj Se tov orrrjp.ovos ip.TrXeei Trpos ttjv
rrjs yvdifiecos 6XKtjv ep.p.erpcos ttjv p.aXaKorTjra
logei, ravr' dpa KpoKrjv p.ev ra vrjdevra, ttjv 8e
eTrirerayp,evrjv avrols elvai re^yrjv rrjv KpoKovrjriKrjv
283 cf>cop.ev.
NE. 2n. '0pdorara.
i.e. the pull (6Xk?)) of the carder's comb was less strong
1

in the preparation of the threads of the woof than in that of


the threads of the warp.
94
THE STATESMAN
position and to wool-working, Socrates, you must
allow us to divide again, if we are to get a satisfactory
concept of the aforesaid art of weaving.
y. soc. Then we must divide it.
str. Yes, we must ; and let us call one part of it
the art of twisting threads, and the other the art of
intertwining them.
y. soc. I am not sure I understand.
By the art
of twisting I think you mean the making of the
warp.
str. Not that only, but also the making of the
woof. We shall not lind that the woof is made
without twisting, shall we ?
y. soc. No, of course not.
str. Well, just deline warp and woof ; perhaps
the delinition would serve you well at this junction.
y. soc. How shall I do it ?
str. In this way : A piece of carded wool, which is
lengthened out and is wide, is said to be a lap of
wool, is it not ?
Y. soc. Yes.
str. And if any such lap of wool is twisted
with a spindle and made into a hard thread, we call
the thread warp, and the art which governs this
process is the art of spinning the warp.
y. soc. Right.
str. And the threads, in turn, which are more
loosely twisted and have in respect to the force used
in the carding a softness adapted to the interweaving
with the warp we will call the woof, and the art
devoted to these we will call the art of preparing
the woof.1
y. soc. Quite right.

95
PLATO

HE. Kai p.rjv to ye rrjs v^avriKrjs p.epos o Trpovde-


p,eda, ttovtl ttov SrjXov rjSrj. to yap ovyKpiriKrjs
rrjs ev raXaoiovpyla p.6piov orav evdv,nXoKia KpoKrjs
Kal o~rrjp.ovo9 dWpyd^rai TrXeyp.a, to p.ev TrXexdev
ijvp.Trav iodrjra ipeav, rfjv Se Tti tovtco rexvqv
ovoav Trpooayopevop.ev vcpavriKrjv .

NE. 2n. 'Opdorara.


Eiev rl

Srj
24. HE. Trore
ovv ou/c evdiis aTr-
elvai KpoKrjs /cai orrjp.ovos
B

eKpivdp,eda TrXeKriKrjv
vcf>avriKrjv, dXXd TrepirjXdop.ev ev KvKXco Trdp.TroXXa
hiopi^6p,evoi p.arrjv;
NE. sn. OvKovv ep.oiye, co eve, p.arrjv ovSev
tojv prjdevrcov eooe prjdrjvai.
HE. Kai davp.aorov ye ovoev dXXd rax' dv, co
to voorjp.a to tolovtov,
8rj

p.aKapie, Sdeie. Trpos


dv dpa TroXXdKis vorepov emrj davp.aorov yap
ovSev Aoyov aKovaov riva TrpoorjKovra Trepl
,

Trdvru>v tcov tolovtcov prjdrjvai.


C

NE. 2n. Aeye p.6vov.


HE. Ylpcorov tolvvv lScop.ev1 Trdoav rrjv re vTrep-
fioXrjv Kal rrjv eXXeiifiiv, tva Kara Xoyov eTraivcijp.ev
Kal ifieycop.ev ta p.aKporepa rov 8eovros e/cdorore
Xeyop.eva Kal rdvavrla Trepl ra? r0idoSe Siarpi/3d?.
ne. 2n. OvKovv xpq.
toutaw avrcov Xoyos r)puv, oi/iai,
S1j

HE. Hepl
6

yiyvop.evos opdcos dv yiyvoiro.


NE. 2n. Tlvcov;
HE. MrjKovs re Trepi Kal fipaxvrrjros Kal Trdo-rjs
vTrepoxrjs3 re Kal eXXelifiecos' ydp ttov p.erprj-
D

t)

riKrj Trepl Trdvr' eorl ravra.


NE. sn. Nai.
BT.
1

ldo>lxev] eldwfiev
96
THE STATESMAN
sth. So now the part of the art of weaving which
we chose for our discussion is clear to pretty much
every understanding ; for when that part of the art of
composition which is included in the art of weaving
forms a web by the right intertwining of woof and
warp, we call the entire web a woollen garment, and
the art which directs this process we call weaving.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. Very good. Then why in the world did we
not say at once that weaving is the intertwining of
woof and warp ? Why did we beat about the bush
and make a host of futile distinctions ?
y. soc. For my part, I thought nothing that was
said was futile, Stranger.
str. And no wonder ; but perhaps you might
change your mind. Now to avoid any such malady,
in case it should, as is not unlikely, attack you
frequently hereafter, I will propose a principle of
procedure which is applicable to all cases of this sort.
Y. soc. Do so.
str. First, then, let us scrutinize the general
nature of excess and deliciency, for the sake of
obtaining a rational basis for any praise or blame we
may bestow upon excessive length or brevity in
discussions of this kind.
y. soc. Yes, that is a good thing to do.
str. Then the proper subjects for our considera
tion would, I fancy, be these.
y. soc. What ?

str. Length and excess and


shortness and
deficiency in general ; for all of them may be
regarded as the subjects of the art of measurement.
y. soc. Yes.
2
inrepoxrj?] vTrep@o\T}S BTW (virepoxri* in marg. W).
VoL. Ill H 97
PLATO

HE. AieXcop,ev tolvvv avrrjv Svo p.eprj, Sei yap


Tr/30? o vvv oTrevSouev.
Sr)
.
NE. 2n.Aeyoi? aV tr)i/ Sialpeoiv 0T771.
HE. Tj^Se, to p.ev Kara trjv vpos aAAiiAa p.eye-
fouf /r:ai op.iKporrjros Koivcovlav, to Se /cara tr)c
trJ? yeveoecos avayKaiav ovolav.
NE. 2n. Ilco? Xeyeis;
HE. TAp' ou /cara. cf>voiv SoKcl ctoi to p.ei^ov p.rj-
Sev6s Irepov 8elv p.el^ov Xeyeiv tov eXarrovos, Kal

rj
rouAarrov ai5 tou p.el^ovos eXarrov, dXXov 8e
E

p,rj8evos;
NE. 2n. "E/ioiye.
HE. Ti 8e; to ttjv tov p.erplov ^voiv vTrepfidXXov
Kal vTrepjiaXXop.evov iW avrrjs ev Adyoi? eire Kal ev
epyois dp oiiK av Xeop,ev ojs dvtcos yiyvop.evov, ev
Kal Sia^epovoi p.dXiora r)p.cov 01 re Kaicol Kal oI
u)

dyadol;
NE. sn. OaiWrai.
HE. Airra? dpa rauVa? ovoias Kal Kploeis tov
p,eydXov Kai tov opuKpov
dereov, dXX' ovx cos
ecf>ap.ev dpri Trpos aXXrjXa p.ovov Seiv, dAA' coo-nep
vvv slprjrai p.aXXov trjv pev Trpos aXXrjXa XeKreov,
av Trpos to p.erpiov ov Se eveKa, p.adelv
8'

rrjv
dp' dv fiovXolp,eda
;

NE. 2n. Ti p.rjv;


284 He. Ei' Trpos p.rjSev erepov tov
p.el^ovos edoei
tT)i>
tis cf>voiv Trpos rovXarrov, ovK eor a
Trore Trpos to
rj r)

p.erpiov yap;
NE. 2n. Ovtcos.
HE. OvKovv ras rexvas re aura? Kal rapya avrcov
vp.Travra tovtco tco Xoyco, Kal Kal
Sr)

SioXovp.ev1
Sio\ovfiev Bekker BT.
1

die\ovfiev
:

98
THE STATESMAN
sth. Let us, then, divide that art into two parts ;
that is essential for our present purpose.
y. soc. Please tell how to make the division.
str. In this way : one part is concerned with
relative greatness or sniallness, the other with the
something without which production would not be
possible.
y. soc. What do you mean ?

str. Do you not think that, by the nature of the


case, we must say that the greater is greater than
the less and than nothing else, and that the less is
less than the greater and than nothing else ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. But must we not also assert the real existence
of excess beyond the standard of the mean, and of
inferiority to the mean, whether in words or deeds,
and is not the chief dilference between good men
and bad found in such excess or deficiency ?
y. soc. That is clear.
sth. Then wo must assume that there are these
two kinds of great and small, and these two ways of
distinguishing between them ; we must not, as we
did a little while ago, say that they are relative to
one another only, but rather, as we have just said,
that one kind is relative in that way, and the other
is relative to the standard of the mean. Should we
care to learn the reason for this ?
y. soc. Of course.
str. If weassert that the greater has no relation
to anything except the less, it will never have any
relation to the standard of the mean, will it ?
y. soc. No.
str. Will not this doctrine destroy the arts and
their works one and all, and do away also with
99
PLATO

rrjv ^rjrovp,evrjv vvv TroXltlKr\v Kal rr]v prjdeloav


vcf>avriKrjv dcf>aviovp,ev ; dTraoai yap ai roiaCrai'
ttov to tov /xerpiov TrXeov /cai eXarrov ovx cos ovK
ov dAA' co? ov xaXeTrov Trepl ras Trpdeis Trapacf>vXar-
B toviji, /cai tovto> tco rpoTrcp to p.erpov oco^ovoai

Sr)
Trdvra dyadd /cai /caAd dTrepyd^ovrai.
ne. sn. Ti /x^v;
HE. rrjv TroXiriKrjv dcf>avlocop.ev, dTropos
Oi5/couV dv
rjp.lv p.era tovto eorai ^rjrqois rrjs fiaoiXiKrjs
rj

imorfjp.rjs
;

ne. 2n. Kai jU.aAa.


HE. Horepov ovv, KaddTrep ao^iorij Trpoo-
ev to>
rjvayKaoap.ev elvai to p,rj ov, eTreiSrj Kara tovto1
Siecf>vyev rjp.as Xoyos, ovtcd /cai vvv to TrXeov av
6

/cai eXarrov p,erprjra TrpooavayKaoreov yiyveodai


p.6vov dXXd /cai Trpos ttjv tov
dXXrjXa
C

p,rj Trpos
8rj

p.erplov yeveoiv; ov yap Svvarov ye ouVe ttoXl-


tlKov out' dXXov rivd tcov Trepl ras Trpdeis em-
orrip.ova dvap.cf>iofirjrrjrcos yeyovevai tovtov p.rj
vvop.oXoyrjdevros.
ne. 2n. OvKovv /cai vvv oti p.dXiora xprj ravrov
Troielv.
IlAe'ov, Y,coKpares, eVi toSto to epyov
cL

25. HE.
'Keivo, /caiVoi KaKelvov ye p,ep.vr}p.eda to p,rjKos
rj

ooov rjV dAA' vTrorldeodai p.ev to toioVSs Trepl


avra>v /cai p.dXa Si/caio^.
ne. 2n. To Trolov;
"O? Tr0rc Seijaei to> vvv Xexdevros Trpos ttjv
D

HE.
Trepl aiiro ra/cpi/Je? oTrdSeiiv. 6V1 Se Tr00s to vvv

toOto] tovtov BT.


1

Sophist 235.
1

100
THE STATESMAN
statesmanship, which we are now trying to define,
and with weaving, which we did define ? For all
these are doubtless careful about excess and
deficiency in relation to the standard of the mean ;
they regard them not as non-existent, but as real
dilficulties in actual practice, and it is in this way,
when they preserve the standard of the mean, that
all their works are good and beautiful.
Y. soc. Certainly.
str. And if we do away with the art of statesman
ship, our subsequent search for the kingly art will be
hopeless, will it not ?
Y. soc. Certainly.
str. Then just as in the case of the sophist 1
we forced the conclusion that not-being exists, since
that was the point at which we had lost our hold of
the argument, so now we must force this second
conclusion, that the greater and the less are to be
measured in relation, not only to one another, but
also to the establishment of the standard of the mean,
must we not ? For if this is not admitted, neither
the statesman nor any other man who has knowledge
of practical alfairs can be said without any doubt to
exist.
Y. soc. Then we must by all means do now the
same that we did then.
str. This, Socrates, is a still greater task than
that was ; and yet we remember how long that took
us ; but it is perfectly fair to make about them some
such assumption as this.
y. soc. As what ?
str. That sometime we shall need this principle
of the mean for the demonstration of absolute
precise truth. But our belief that the demonstration
PLATO

KaXcos Kal SeiKvvrai, SoKel p.oi fiorjdelv


iKavd>s
ueyaXoTrpeTrcos rjp.lv ovtos 6 Xoyos, d>s dpa rjyrjreov
6p.olcos ra? rexvas Trdoas elvai, p.el^6v re ap.a Kal
e\arrov p.erpelodai p.rj Trpos dXXrjXa p.6vov, aAAa
Kal Trpos rrjv tov p.erplov yeveoiv. tovtov re yap
ovtos eKelva eori, Kouceivcov ovocov eori Kai tovto,1
p,rj 8e ovtos Trorepov tovtcov ov8erepov avtcov eorai
Trore.
rl

8rj
E ne. 2n. Tovto p,ev opdcos' dXXd to p,era
tovto
;

HE. ArjXov otl 8iaipoip,ev dv rrjv p.erprjriKrjv,


ravrrj

hr
KaddTrep epprjdrj, Si'^a rep.vovres, p,ev
ridevres avrrjs p.opiov vp.Trdoas rexvas oTrooai tov
dpidp.6v Kal p.rjKrj Kal fiddrj Kal TrXarrj Kal Traxvrrj-
ras2 Trpos rovvavriov p.erpovoim to 8e erepov,
oTrooai Trpos to p,erpiov Kal to TrpeTrov Kal tov
Kaipov Kal to Seov Kal Trdvd oTrooa els to p.eoov
aTrcpKlodrj tcov eo^arcov.
ne. 2X1. Kai p,eya eKarepov rp.rjp.a siTres, Kal
y

TroXv 8iacf>epov dXXrjXoiv.


HE. "0 yap evlore, co HcoKpares olop.evoi ti
8rj
,

285 oocf>6v cf>pd^eiv TroXXol tcov Kopuficov Xeyovoiv, co?


dpa p.erptjriKrj Trepl Trdv^ ZotI to yiyvop,eva, tout'
avro to vvv Xexdev ov rvyxdvei. p.erprjoecos p.ev
8rj

yap riva rpoTrov Travd' oTrooa evrexva p.erelXrjcpe,


Sid 8e to p,rj Kar' elSrj ovveidlodai oKoTrelv Siaipov-
p,evovs ravra re tooovtov Siacf>epovra vp.fidXXovoiv
evdvs els ravrov 6/ioia vop.loavres Kal rovvavriov
,

av tovtov 8pd>oiv erepa ov /card p.eprj Siaipovvres,

ravra BT.
1

ToOro]
. Traxi'rijras et al.
T

rax^riras
B
:

102
THE STATESMAN
is for our present purpose good and sullicient is, in
my opinion, magnilicently supported by this argu
ment that we must believe that all the arts alike
exist and that the greater and the less are measured
in relation not only to one another but also to the
establishment of the standard of the mean. For if
this exists, they exist also, and if they exist, it exists
also, but neither can ever exist if the other does not.
y. soc. That is quite right. But what comes next ?
str. We should evidently divide the science of
measurement into two parts in accordance with what
has been said. One part comprises all the arts which
measure number, length, depth, breadth, and thick
ness in relation to their opposites ; the other
comprises those which measure them in relation to
the moderate, the litting, the opportune, the needful,
and all the other standards that are situated in the
mean between the extremes.
y. soc. Both of your divisions are extensive, and
there is a great dilference between them.
STR. Yes, for what many clever persons occasion
ally say, Socrates, fancying that it is a wise remark,
namely, that the science of measurement has to do
with everything, is precisely the same as what we
have just said. For in a certain way all things which
are in the province of art do partake of measurement ;
but because people are not in the habit of considering
things by dividing them into classes, they hastily put
these widely dilferent relations 1 into the same
category, thinking they are alike ; and again they do
the opposite of this when they fail to divide other
things into parts. What they ought to do is this :
1
i.e. relations to each other and relations to the standard
of tlx' mean.
103
PLATO

Se'ov, orav p.ev ttjv tcov ttoXXcov tls Trporepov aiodrj-


B rai Koivcovlav, p,rj Trpoacf>loraodai Trplv av iv avrfj
ras Siacf>opas lStj Trdoas oTrooanrep iv elSeoi Kelvrai,
Taj Be OiU TroivToBclTra.S a.vop.oiorrjras , oto.v v TrXrj-
deoiv ocf>dd>oi, p.rj 8vvoltov elvai 8vocoTrovp.evov
Traveodai, Trplv av vp.Travra ta oi/cela ivros puds
6p.oiorrjros epas yevovs rivos ovola TrepifidXrjrai.
ravra p.ev ovv re tovtcov Kal ,nepl
iKavcos Trepl
tcov eXXelifiecov Kal vTrepfioXcov elprjodw cf>vXdr-
rcop.ev Se p.ovov otl Svo yevrj ,nepl aura
C ievprjrai rrjs p.erprjriKrjs, Kal a cf>ap,ev avr' elvai
p.ep.vcop.eda .

ne. sn. Mep.vrjoop.eda. Srj


26. HE. Mera tovtov tov Xoyov erepov
TrpooSecop.eda ,nepl avrcbv re tcov ^rjrovp.evcov Kal
Trepl Trdorjs rrjs iv tols roioioSe Xoyois oiarpifirjs ,

NE. sn. To ,nolov;


HE. Ei tls
dvepoiro r)p.as trjv Trepl ypdp.p.ara ovv-
ovolav tcov p.avdavovrcov, 6,norav tis otlovv ovop.a
ipcorTrjdrj tlvcov iorl ypap.p.arcov, ,norepov avrco totc
ylyveodai ttjv ^rjrrjoiy evos eveKa p.aXXov
T)

cf>cop.ev

tov ,npofiXrjdevros tov Trepl 'ndvra ra ,npo-


rj

fiaXXop.eva ypap.p.ariKo>repcp ylyveodai;


NE. SSl. ArjXov otl tov Trepl aTravra.
Tl av vvv rjp.lv tov ttoXltiKov ^rjrrj-
S'

HE. Trepl
rj

o1s; eveKa avrov tovtov ,npofiefiXrjrai p.aXXov


r)

tov Trepl Trdvra SiaXeKriKcorepois ylyveodai


;

NE. 2n. Kal tovto SrjXov otl tov ,nepl Trdvra.


104
THE STATESMAN
when a person at first sees only the unity or common
quality of many things, he must not give up until he
sees all the dilferences in them, so far as they exist in
classes ; and conversely, when all sorts of dissimilar
ities are seen in a large number of objects he must
find it impossible to be discouraged or to stop until
he has gathered into one circle of similarity all the
things which are related to each other and has in
cluded them in some sort of class on the basis of
their essential nature. No more need be said, then,
about this or about deficiency and excess ; let us
only bear carefully in mind that two kinds of measure
ment which apply to them have been found, and
let us remember what those kinds are.
y. soc. We will remember.
str. Now that we have finished this discussion,
let us take up another which concerns the actual
objects of our inquiry and the conduct of such
discussions in general.
y. soc. What is it ?
str. Suppose we were asked the following question
about a group of pupils learning their letters: " Winn
a pupil is asked of what letters some word or other
is composed, is the question asked for the sake of
the one particular word before him or rather to make
him more learned about all words in the lesson?"
y. soc. Clearly to make him more learned about
them all.
str. And how about our own investigation of the
statesman ? Has it been undertaken for the sake of
this particular subject or rather to make us better
thinkers about all subjects?
y. soc. Clearly this also is done with a view to
them all.
I or.
PLATO

HE. TH Trov tov rrjs ye Xoyov avrrjs


vcf>avriKrjs
ravrrjs eveKa drjpeveiv ovSels av edeXr)oeie vovv epr
aAA , oi/iai, tovs TrXelorovs XeXrjdev ori tols p,ev tcov
E ovtcov paSlcos Ka.Ta.p.a.Be'iv alcrOrjTa.11 rtves" op,oio-
rrjres Trecf/vKaoiv, as ovSev ^aAeTroc SrjXovv, orav
avrcov tls fiovXrjdfj tco Xoyov alrovvri Trepl tov p.r)
p.era Trpayp.drcov dXXd xcopls Xoyov paSlcos evSel-
aodai, tols S' av p.eylorois ovoi Kal rip.icorarois
286 ovK eoriv e'lScoXov ovSkv Trpos tovs dvdpcoTrovs
elpyaop,evov evapycbs, ov Sei](divros rijv tov Trvvda-
vop,evov ifivxrjv 6 fiovXop.evos dTroTrXrjpcooai, Trpos
tcov alodrjoecov tivo. Trpooapp.orro>v, IKovo>s TrXrjpco-
oei. S16 Sel p.eXerdv Xoyov eKdorov Svvarov elvai
Sovvai Kal Seaodaf rd yap docu/iara, KdXXiora
ovra Kai p.eyiora, Xoyco p.ovov, dXXco 8e ovSevl
oacf>cx>s
SeiKvvrai, tovtuov Se eveKa Trdvr' eori rd
vvv Xey6p,eva. pdcov S ev tols eXarrooiv rj p,eXerrj
B Travros Trepi p.aXXov rj Trepl rd p,el^co.
ne. sn. KaAAior' elTres.
HE. TQ.v tolvvv \a.piv dTravd' rjp.lv raiJr' epprjdrj
Trepl tovtcov, p.vrjodcop.ev.
NE. 2X1. Tlva>v;
HE. lavrrjs re ovx 1j/ciora ainrjs eveKa rrjs 8vo-
\epelas rjv rrjv p.aKpoXoylav rrjv Trepl trtjv
Trepl
vcf>avriKrjv dTreSedp.eda 8voxepd>s, Kal rrjv Trepl
rrjv tov Travros dvelXiiv Kal rrjv2 tov oocf>iorov
Trepl rrjs tov p.rj ovtos ovolas, evvoovvres d>s eV^e
p.rjKos TrXeov , Kal eTrl tovtois
Srj

Traoiv eTreTrXrjap,ev
rjp.lv avrols, Seloavres p.rj Treplepya d/ia Kal
C

p.aKpd Xeyoip.ev. iv ovv els avdis p.rj8ev Trdoxcop,ev

aiadriral Cornariiis ruV0?jriii BT.


1

tt\v om. BT.


1

106
THE STATESMAN

str. Of course no man of sense would wish to


pursue the discussion of weaving for its own sake ;
but most people, it seems to me, fail to notice that
some things have sensible resemblances which are
easily perceived ; and it is not at all difficult to show
them when anyone wishes, in response to a request
for an explanation of some one of them, to exhibit
them easily without trouble and really without
explanation. But, on the other hand, the greatest
and noblest conceptions have no image wrought
plainly for human vision, which he who wishes to
satisfy the mind of the inquirer can apply to some
one of his senses and by mere exhibition satisfy
the mind. We must therefore endeavour by practice
to acquire the power of giving and understanding a
rational delinition of each one of them ; for immaterial
things, which are the noblest and greatest, can be
exhibited by reason only, and it is for their sake
that all we are saying is said. But it is always
easier to practise in small matters than in greater
ones.
Y. soc. Excellent.
str. Let us, then, remember the reason for all
that we have said about these matters.
y. soc. What is the reason ?
str. The reason is chiefly just that irritating
impatience which we exhibited in relation to the long
talk about weaving and the revolution of the universe
and the sophist's long talk about the existence of
not-being.1 We felt that they were too long, and
we reproached ourselves for all of them, fearing that
our talk was not only long, but irrelevant. Consider,
therefore, that the reason for what has just been said
1
See 283 b, 277, Sophisi 261.
107
PLATO

tolovtov, tovtcov eVe/ca tt&vtcov ra Trpoodev vcov


elprjodai cf>ddi.
ne. 2O. Tavr' eorai. Xeye erjs p.6vov.
HE. Aiyco tolvvv ori xpI $1 ^/Wrj/iAws ep.e
KGU cre tow viw eiprjp,evcov tov re ifioyov eKaoTore

Kal eTraivov Troielodai fipaxvrrjros ap.a Kal p.rjKovs


cLv av del Trepi Xeycop.ev, p.rj Trpos dXXrjXa tci /iTj/crj
Kplvovres, dXXd /cara. to rij? p,erprjriKrjs p,epos o
1) rore ecf>ap,ev Selv p,ep.vrjodai, Trpos to TrpeTrov.
NE. Sd. 'Opdcos.
HE.Ou toivvv ovSe 'npos tovto Trdvra. ovre yap
Trpos ttjv rjSovrjv p.rjKovs dpp.orrovros ovSev TrpooSerj
-

oop.eda, TrXrjv el Trdpepyov TV to re aiJ Trpos ttjv tov


TrpofiXrjdevros t>rjrrjoiv , cos clv paora Kal ra\iora
evpoip.ev, oevrepov dXX' ov Trpcorov 6 Xoyos dyaTrav
TrapayyeXXei, ttoXv 8e p.dXiora Kal Trpcorov ttjv
p,edoSov avrTjv rip.av tov /car' elSrj 8vvarov elvai
E Siaipeiv, Kal orj Kal Xoyov, dVre Trap.p.rjKrjs Xex@els
tov aKovoavra evperiKcorepov aTrepyd^rjrai, tovtov
oTrovod^eiv Kal tco p.rjKei p.rjSev dyavaKrelv, dvr'
av jipaxvrepos, d>oavrcos' eri S' ai> Trpos tovtois
tov Trepl reis roidoSe ovvovolas ifteyovra Xoycov
p.rjKrj Kal rd? ev KvKXio Trepi6Sovs ovK aTroSexo-
p.evov, ori xprj tov toiovtov p.rj Trdvv ra^u /irjS'
evdi>s ovtco p,edievai ifieavra p.6vov co? p.aKpd
287 ra Xexdevra, a.AAa. Kal TrpooaTrocf>alveiv oleodai Selv
co? fipaxvrepa av yevop.eva tovs ovvovras dTrrjpyd-
^ero SiaXeKriKcorepovs Kal trjs tcov ovtcov Xoycp
SrjXcooecos evperiKcorepovs, tcov Se dXXcov Kal Trpos
108
THE STATESMAN
is my wish to avoid any such impatience in the
future.
y. soc. Very well. Please go on with what you
have to say.
str. What I have to say, then, is that you and I,
remembering what has just been said, must praise
or blame the brevity or length of our several dis
cussions, not by comparing their various lengths with
one another, but with reference to that part of the
science of measurement which we said before must
be borne in mind ; I mean the standard of fitness.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. But we must not always judge of length by
fitness, either. For we shall not in the least want
a length that is fitted to
give pleasure, except,
perhaps, as a secondary consideration ; and again
reason counsels us to accept fitness for the easiest
and quickest completion of the inquiry in which we
are engaged, not as the first, but as the second thing
to be desired. By far our first and most important
object should be to exalt the method itself of ability
to divide by classes, and therefore, if a discourse, even
though it be very long, makes the hearer better able
to discover the truth, we should accept it eagerly and
should not be olfended by its length, or if it is short,
we should judge it in the same way. And, moreover,
anyone who finds fault with the length of discourses
in our discussions, or objects to roundabout methods,
must not merely find fault with the speeches for
their length and then pass them quickly and hastily
by, but he must also show that there is ground for the
belief that if they had been briefer they would have
made their hearers better dialecticians and quicker
to discover through reason the truth of realities.
10,9
PLATO

aAA' arra ifioycov Kal eTralvcov p.rjSev cf>povri^eiv


p.rjSe to TrapaTrav aKoveiv ooKelv tolovtcov tcov
Xoycov. Kal tovtcov p.ev aXis, el Kal ool ravrrj
(jvvSoKel' Trpos Se 8rj tov ttoXitlKov lcop.ev TrdXiv,
rrjs Trpopprjdelo-qs vif>avriKrjs avrco cf>epovres to
TrapdSeiyp.a.
NE. 2fl. KaAco? e1rr6?, Kal Troicop.ev a Xeyeis.
27. HE. OvKovv aTro ye tcov ttoXXcov o /Jacn-
Xevs ooai vvvop.oi, piaXXov Se dTro Traocov tcov Trepl
tols dyeXas Sia/ce^copiorar Xonral Se, cbap,ev, ai
Kara TrdAiv avrrjv tcov ts gwairiow Kai tcov airicov,
as Trpcoras aTr dXXrjXcov oiaipereov.
NE. 2n. 'Optfco?.
Olod' ovv otl xaXeTrov aura? rep,elv Si'^a;
HE.
to S' oItiov, cos olp.ai, Trpo'Covoiv ovx rjrrov eatai
Karacf>aves .

OvKovv xprj 8pav ovtcos,


NE. sn.
HE. Kara p,eXrj tolvvv aura? olov lepelov Siai-
pcop.eda, eVeiSr) oi'^a d8vvarovp.ev . Sel yap els
tov iyyvrara otl /iaAiora rep.veiv dpidp.6v del.
NE. Sn. Ylcos ovv Troicop,ev ra vvv;
HE. "Q,oTrep ep.Trpoodev, oTrooai Trapeixovro op-
yava Trepl ttjv vcf>avriKrjv, Trdoas SrjTrov1 roVe
erldep.ev cos ovvairiovs .

ne. sn. Nai.


Kai raVrov p,ev tovto, etl
8rj

HE. vvv Se p.aXXov


t6d' rjp.lv Troirjreov. ooai yap op.iKp6v p,eya tl
rj

r)

Srjpaovpyovoi Karo. ttoXlv opyavov, dereov dTrdoas


raura? cos ovoas ovvairiovs . dvev yap tovtcov ovK
dv Trore yevoiro ttoXls ovSe ttoXltlKtj, tovtcov
S'

av /SaoiAi/cij? epyov rexvrjs ovoev Trov drjoop.ev.


Trov T.
B

5ijtrou] 5^ Trov
1

10
1
THE STATESMAN
About other people and the praise or blame they direct
towards other qualities in discourse, we need not
be concerned ; we need not even appear to hear
them. But enough of this, if you feel about it as I do ;
so let us go back to the statesman and apply to him
the example of weaving that we spoke of a while ago.
y. soc. Very well ; let us do so.
str. The art of the king, then, has been separated
from most of the kindred arts, or rather from all the
arts that have to do with herds. There remain,
however, the arts that have to do with the state itself.
These are both causes and contingent causes, and
our lirst duty is to separate them from one another.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. It is not easy to divide them into halves, you
know. But I think the reason will nevertheless be
clear as we go on.
y. soc. Then we had better divide in another way.
str. Let us divide them, then, like an animal
that is sacriliced, by joints, since we cannot bisect
them ; for we must always divide into a number of
parts as near two as possible.
Y. soc. How shall we do it in the present instance ?
str. Just as in the previous case, you know, we
classed all the arts which furnished tools for weaving
as contingent causes.
y. soc. Yes.
str. So now we must do the thing, but it
same
is even more imperative. For all the arts which
furnish any implement, great or small, for the state,
must be classed .as contingent causes ; for without
them neither state nor statesmanship could ever exist,
and yet I do not suppose we shall reckon any of them
as the work of the kingly art.

Ill
PLATO

ne. 2n. Ov yap.


Kai

Srj
HE. p.ev xaXe,n6v imxeipovp.ev 8pdv dTro-
Xcopl^ovres tovto aTro to>v dXXcov to yevos' ri

o
yap ovv tc,>v ovtcov eoriv cus' evos ye tivos dpyavov
elTrovra SoKelv elprjKevai ri mdav6v. op.cos 8e ere-
pov av rcov ev TroXei Krrjp.drcov eiTro>p,ev roSe.
E

ne. 2n. To ttolov;


HE. 'ls ovK eori ravrrjv rrjv Svvap.iv exov. ov
ydp eTrl yeveoecos alrla Trrjyvvrai,2 KaddTrep opya
vov, dAA' eveKa tov Srjpu.ovpyrjdevros ocorrjplas.
ne. 2n. To ttolov
;

Touto o
S1j

HE. rjpols /cai vypols Kal ep.Trvpois


Kal dTrvpois Travro8aTrov elSos epyaodev dyyelov3
/iia KvVijoei Trpoocf>deyy6p,eda, Kal p.dXa ye cmxvov
elSos Kal rfj ^qrovp.evrj ye, cos oi/iai, TrpoofjKov
288 ovoev dre^vco? eTriorrjp.rj.
ne. 2n. Hcos ydp p#;
8rj

HE. Tovro>v rplrov erepov elSos Krrjp.arcov


TrdpnroXv KaroTrreov Tre^ov Kal evv8pov Kal TroXv-
TrXaves Kal aTrXaves Kal rlp.iov Kal drip.ov, ev 8e
ovop.a exov> Si6ti Trdv eveKa tivos ecf>e8pas eorl,
daKos del tivi yiyvop.evov .
ne. 2n. To ttolov;
HE. "Oxrjp,a avro ttov Xeyop,ev, ov Trdvv TroXiriKrjs
epyov, dXXd p.aXXov ttoXv reKroviKrjs Kal Kepap.iKrjs
Kal xaXKorvTrlKrjs .
NE. 2n. Mavddvco.
28. HE. Ti' Se reraprov; dp' erepov elvai
B

tariv Campbell iarcv Zariv tanv Her


T
B

ws
1

a>s a>s
:

:
:

mann.
airly. trr)yvvrai Bekker alrial Tr^yvvvrai BT.
2

"
dyyelov Hermann ayyelov Sr) BT.
3

S
:

112
THE STATESMAN
Y. SQC.No.
str. We shall certainly be undertaking a hard task
in separating this class from the rest ; for it might be
said that everything that exists is the instrument of
something or other, and the statement seems plausible.
But there are possessions of another kind in the
state, about which I wish to say something.
y. soc. What do you wish to say ?
str. That they do not possess this instrumental
function. For they are not, like tools or instruments,
made for the purpose of being causes of production,
but exist for the preservation of that which has been
produced.
y. soc. What is this class of possessions?
str. That very various class which is made with
dry and wet materials and such as are wrought by
fire and without fire; it is called collectively the
class of receptacles ; it is a very large class and has,
so far as I can see, nothing at all to do with the art
wc arc studying.
y. soc. No, of course not.
str. And there is a third very large class of
possessions to be noticed, dilfering from these ; it is
found on land and on water, it wanders about and
is stationary, it is honourable and without honour,
but it has one name, because the whole class is
always a seat for some one and exists to be sat upon.
Y. soc. What is it ?
str. We call it a vehicle, and it certainly is not
at all the work of statesmanship, but much rather
that of the arts of carpentry, pottery and bronze-
working.
y. soc. I
understand.
str. And is there a fourth class ? Shall we say
VoL. Ill 113
PLATO

tovtcov XeKreov, iv co rd TrXeiora iori


tcov TrdXai
prjdevrcov, eodrjs re vp.Traoa Kal tcov dttXiov to ttoXv
Kal relxrj Travra d'1 doa yqiva TrepifiXrjp.ara Kal
Xldiva, Kal p.vpla erepa; TrpoftoXrjs Se eveKa (jvp-
Trdvrcov avrcov elpyaop.ivcov SiKaiorar' av oXov
Trpooayopevoiro TrpofiXrjp.a, Kal TroXXco p.aXXov rex-
vrjs oiKoSop.iKrjs epyov Kal vcf>avriKrjs to TrXelorov
vop,l^oir' av opdorepov Tj ttoXitiKtjs ,
NE. 2n. Yldvv jxev odv.
C HE. Hep.Trrov Se dp' av edeXoip,ev to Trepl tov
Koop.ov Kal ypa^iKrjv delvai Kal doa ravrrj Trpoo-
xpcop,eva Kal p.ovoiKfj p.ip.rjp.ara reXeirai, Trpos ras
rjSovas p.6vov rjp.cov aTrsipyaop.iva, SiKalcos S' dv
ovop.ari TrepiXrj^divra evi;
NE. 2n. Yloico;
HE. Halyviov ttov ti Xeyerai.
NE. sn. Ti p,rjv;
HE. Tovro rolvvv rovroIs ev ovop.o. dTraoi Trpeiflei
Trpooayopevdev ov yap oTrovorjs ovoev avrcov xdpiv,
dXXa TraiSia? eveKa Trdvra opdrai.
D ne. sn. Kai tovto oxeSov eri p.avddvco .
HE. To Se ,naoi tovtois oxo/iara Trapexov, e ow
Kal ev ols Srjp.iovpyovoiv oTrooai td>v rexvd>v vvv
elprjvrai, TravrooaTrov elSos TroXXcov erepcov rexvdiv
eKyovov ov, dp' ovx eKrov drjoop.ev;
Srj

ne. sn. To ttolov Xeyeis;


HE. Xouctov re Kal dpyvpov Kal Trdvd' dTrooa
/ieraAAeuerai Kal doa 8pvoropuKrj Kal Kovpa vp.-
Traoa rep.vovoa Trapexei reKroviKfj Kal TrXeKriKrj,
Kal eri cf>XoioriKrj cf>vtcov re Kal ep.ifivxcov Se'p/iara
onop.dru>v Trepiaipovoa oKvrorop.iKrj, Kal ooai
E

BT.
d'
1

0']
114
THE STATESMAN
that there is one, differing from those three, one to
which most of the things we have mentioned belong
all clothing, most amis, all circuit walls of earth
or of stone, and countless other things ? And since
they are all made for defence, they may most rightly
be called by the collective name of defence, and this
may much more properly be considered for the most
part the work of the art of building or of weaving
than of statesmanship.
y. soc. Certainly.
str. And should we care to make a fifth class, of
ornamentation and painting and all the imitations
created by the use of painting and music solely for
our pleasure and properly included under one name ?
y. soc. What is its name ?
str. It is called by some such name as plaything.
y. soc. To be sure.
str. So this one name will properly be applied to
all the members of this class ; for none of them is
practised for any serious purpose, but all of them
merely for play.
Y. soc. I understand that pretty well, too.
str. And shall we not make a> sixth class of that
which furnishes to all these the materials of which
and in which all the arts we have mentioned fashion
their works, a very various class, the olfspring of
many other arts ?
y. soc. What do you mean ?
str. Gold and silver and all the products of the
mines and all the materials which tree-felling and
wood-cutting in general cut and provide for carpentry
and basket- weaving ; and then, too, the art of
stripping the bark from plants and the leather-
worker's art which takes off the skins of animals, and
115
PLATO

Trepl ta roiavra
eloiv rexvai, Kal cf>eXXcov Kal fiv-
fiXcov Kal Seop.cov epyaoriKal Tiapeoxov Srjp.iovpyelv
ovvdera eK p.rj ovvridep,evcov elSrj yevcov. ev Se
olvto Trpooayopevop.ev ,nav to Trpcoroyeves dvdpcoTrols
Krrjp.a Kal dvvderov Kai fiaoiXiKrjs eTriorrjp.rjs
ovSap.cos epyov dv.
NE. 2n. KaAcD?.
Ktr)oiv, Kal to
Srj
HE. Trjv rrjs rpocf>rjs oo-a els
ocop.a vyKarap.iyvvp,eva eavrajv aepeoi p,eprj
ocop.aros els to depaTrevoal riva Svvap.iv eiXrjxe,
289 XeKreov efiSop.ov 6vop.doavras avro vp.Trav rjp.d>v
elvai rpocf>6v, p.rj ti KdXXiov exop,ev aXXo diodw
el

yecopyiKjj Se Kal drjpevriKrj Kal yvp.vaoriKfj Kai


larpiKrj Kal p.ayeipiKrj Trav vTroridevres 6pdorepov
aTroocooop,ev rfj TroXiriKfj .
r)

ne. sn. Hcos yap ov;


29. HE. Hixeo6v rolvvv doa e^erai Krrjoecos,
ttXrjv tcov r)p.epcov ^cpcov, ev tovtois eTrra olp.ai
aKoTrei 8e,
rjv

yeveoiv elprjodai. yap Si/caioVara


p.ev dv redev /car' dp^ds to Trpcoroyeves elSos, p.era
Se tovto dpyavov, dyyelov,Sxrjp.a, Trp6fiXrjp.a,
B

ti p,rj
el

Tralyviov, dpep,p.a. d1 TrapaXelTropev 8e,


p,eya XeXrjdev, els ti tovtcov 8vvarov dpp.orreiv olov
,

tov v0p.lop.ar0s c8ea Kal ocppaylScov Kal Travros


r)

xapaKrrjpos , yevos re yap ev avrols ravra ovoev


exei p,eya vvvop.ov, dXXd rd p.ev els Koop.ov, to
Se els opyava fila p,ev, op.cos Se Trdvrco? eXKop,eva
ovp.cf>covrjoei. to Se Trepl ^cpcov Krrjoiv tcov rjp.epcov,
ttXrjv SovXcov, Trporepov dyeXaiorpocf>iKrj Siap.epi-
C

r)

odeloa Trdvra elXrjcf>via dvacpalverai .

ne. 2n. Hdvv p,ev ovv.


add. Madvig.
1

&

116
THE STATESMAN

all the other arts which have to do with such matters,


and those that make corks and paper and cords and
enable us to manufacture composite classes of things
from kinds that are not composite. We call all this,
as one class, the primary and simple possession of man,
and it is in no way the work of the kingly science.
y. soc. Good.
str. And property in food and all the things
which, mingling parts of themselves with parts of
the body, have any function of keeping it in health,
we may say is the seventh class, and we will call it
collectively our nourishment, unless we have some
better name to give it. All this we can assign to
the arts of husbandry, hunting, gymnastics, medicine,
and cooking more properly than to that of states
manship.
y. soc. Of course.
str. Now I think I have in these seven classes
mentioned nearly all kinds of property except tame
animals. See : there was the primary possession,
which ought in justice to have been placed lirst, and
after this the instrument, receptacle, vehicle, defence,
plaything, nourishment. Whatever we have omitted,
unless some important thing has been overlooked,
can find its place in one of those classes ; for instance,
the group of coins, seals, and stamps, for there is not
among these any kinship such as to form a large
class, but some of them can be made to fit into the
class of ornaments, others into that of instruments,
though the classification is somewhat forced. All
property in tame animals, except slaves, is included
in the art of herding, which has already been divided
into parts.
y. soc. Yes ; quite true.

117
PLATO

To SovXiov Kal Trdvrcov vTrrjpercov Xoi-

ST)
HE. 8e
ttov, ev ols ttov Kal p.avrevop.ai tovs Trepl avro to
TrXeyp.a dp.cf>iofirjrovvras tco /iaoiXel Karacf>avels
yevr]oeoQa.i, Ka.da.Trcp Tols vcf>a.vracs totc tovs Trepi
to vrjdeiv re Kal a[veiv Kal ooa dXXa elTrop.ev. oI
Se dXXoi Trdvres, cos ovvairioi M)(8&resr dp.a tols
prjdeloiv dvrjXiovrai Kal drrexcopi-

ST)
epyois rOW vvv
odrjoav dTro fiaoiXiKrjs re /cai ttoXltlK^s Trpaecos.
D

ne. 2n. 'Eoi'/caoi yovv.


tovs Xolttovs TrpooeXdov-
ST)

HE. "101 oKeific6p.eda


res eyyvdev, iv' avrovs elScop.ev fiefiaiorepov .

ne. 2n. OvKovv xprj,


HE. Tovs p.ev p.eylorovs vTrrjperas, cLs evdev8e
Sr)

ISelv, rovvavriov e^ovras evploKop.ev ols vttcotttev-


oap,ev emrrjSevp.a Kal Trddos.
ne. sn. TtVa?;
HE. Tovs cbvrjrovs re Kal tco rpoTrcp tovtco Ktrj-
tovs' ovs dvap.cf>iofirjrrjrcos SovXovs exop,ev ehrelv,
rjKiora fiaoiXiKrjs p.eraTroiovp.evovs tc^cti?.
E

NE. sn. Ylcos ov;


8'

HE. Ti Se; rcov eXevdepcov 0ooi tols vvv prj-


ST)

deloiv els vTrrjperiKrjv eKovres avrovs rdrrovoi, to


re yecopylas Kal ra rcov dXXiov rexvcov epya SiaKop.i-
ovre? eTr' dXXrjXovs Kai dvioovvres, ol p.ev /car'
dyopds, oI 8e TtoXiv eK TroXecos dXXdrrovres Kara
ddXarrav /cai Tre^fj, vop.iop,d re Trpos ra dXXa Kal
avro Trpos avro Siap.eljiovres ovs dpyvpap.oifiovs
,

290 re Kal ep.Tropovs Kai^vavKXrjpovs Kal KaTrrjXovs eTr-


1avop.oKap,ev, p.d>v trJ? TroXiriKrjs dpuf>iofirjrrjoovoI ti;
NE. sn. Ta^' dv locos rrjs ye rcov ep.TropevriKcov.

118
THE STATESMAN
str. There remains the class of slaves and servants
in general, and here I prophesy that we shall find
those who set up claims against the king for the very
fabric of his art, just as the spinners and carders
and the rest of whoin we spoke advanced claims
against the weavers a while ago. All the others,
whom we called contingent causes, have been
removed along with the works we just mentioned
and have been separated from the activity of the
king and the statesman.
y. soc. That seems to be the case, at least.
str. Come then, let us step up and look from
close at hand at those who are left, that so we may
know them more surely.
Y. soc. Yes, that is what we should do.
str. We shall find, then, that the greatest servants,
when seen from near at hand, are in conduct and
condition the opposite of that which we suspected.
y. soc. Who are they ?
str. The bought servants, acquired by purchase,
whom we can without question call slaves. They
make no claim to any share in the kingly art.
Y. soc. Certainly not.
str. How about those free men who put them
selves voluntarily in the position of servants of those
whom we mentioned before ? I mean the men who
carry about and distribute among one another the
productions of husbandry and the other arts, whether
in the domestic market-places or by travelling from
city to city by land or sea, exchanging money for
wares or money for money, the men whom we call
brokers, merchants, shipmasters, and peddlers ; do
they lay any claim to statesmanship ?
y. soc. Possibly to commercial statesmanship.
PLATO

HE. 'AAA' ov p,r)v, ovs ye opcouev p.iodcorovs Kal


drjras ,ndoiv eroijxorara vTrqperovvras, pvtj Trore
BaoiXiKrjs p.eraTroiovp.evovs evpcop.ev.
nx. sn. Iico? ydp;
HE. Ti Se dpa tovs ra roidoe SiaKovovvras rjp.lv
eKclctrore ;
NE. 2n. Td Kal rlvas ;
Trolo. eiTrss
B HE. rOv to KrjpuKiKov edvos , oooi re Trepl ypdp.-
p.ara oocf>ol ylyvovrai TroXXdKis vTrtjperrjoavres ,
Kal ttoXX' drra erepa Trepl ras dpxas SiaTrovelodal
rives erepoi TrdvSeivoi, ri tovtovs av Xeop.ev;
NE. 2n. "OTrep elires vvv, v,n-qperas, dAA' ou/c
airrou? ev rals TroAeaiv dpxovras.
HE. 'AAA' 01) /iip', olp.al ye, evxmviov loiov elTrov
ravrrj tovs -
Trrj cf>avrjoeodai Siacf>ep6vrcos dp.cf>iofirj
Kalroi ocf>68pa ye drorrov
rovvras rrjs TroXiriKrjs .

C av eivai ooeie to ^rjrelv tovtovs ev vTrrjperiKrj


p.oipa rIvl.
NE. 2n. Kop.iSfj p.ev ovv.
HE. "Eti orj Trpoop.lcop.ev eyyvrepov em tovs
p.,fjTrco BeBaoavcop.evovs . elol Se ol re Trepl p.avriKrjv
exovres tivos emorrjp.rjs Sia/coVou p.opiov epp,rjvev-
rai yap ttov vop.l^ovrai Trapa decov dvdpd>Trois.
NE. 2n. Nai.
HE. Kai pvqv Kal to tcov lepecov ai) yevos, cos to
v6p.ip.6v cf>rjoi, Trapd p.ev rjp.cov ocopeas deols Sid dv-
oicov emorrjp.6v eori Kara vovv eKelvois ocopelodai,
D Trapa oe eKelvcov rjp.lv evxals Krrjoiv dyadcov alrrj-
oaodai, ravra Se SiaKovov rexyrjs iorl ttov p.6pia
dp.cf>6repa.
NE. 2n. Oaiverai yovv.
30. HE. "YlSrj rolvvv p.oi SoKovp.ev olov ye tivos
120
THE STATESMAN

str. But certainly we shall never find labourers,


whom we see only too glad to serve anybody for hire,
claiming a share in the kingly art.
y. soc. Certainly not.
str. But there are people who perform services
of another kind. How about them ?
v. soc. What services and what men do you mean ?
str. The class of heralds and those who become
by long practice skilled as clerks and other clever
men who perform various services in connexion with
public ollices. What shall we call them ?
Y. soc. What you called the others, servants ;
they are not themselves rulers in the states.
stk. But surely it was no dream that made me
say we should find somewhere in this region those
who more than others lay claim to the art of states
manship ; and yet it would be utterly absurd to
look for them in any servile position.
y. soc. Certainly.
stk. But let us draw a little closer still lo those
whom we have not yet examined. There are men
who have to do with divination and possess a portion
of a certain menial science ; for they are supposed
to be interpreters of the gods to men.
y. soc. Yes.
str. And then, too, the priests, according to law
and custom, know how to give the gods, by means of
sacrifices, the gifts that please them from us and by
prayers to ask for us the gain of good things from
them ; now these are both part of a servant's art.
Y. soc. At least they seem to be so.
str. At last, then, I think we are, as it were,
12]
PLATO

"xvovs ecf>'
8 Tropev6p.eda TrpooaTrreodai. to yap
tcov Upecov oxfjp.a Kal to tcov
ST)
p.dvrecx>v ev p.dXa
Kal 86av oep.vijv Xap.fiavei
cf>povrjp.aros TrXrjpovrai
ctt to p.eycoos ta>v ey^ipr^xiarOiv cocrre Trepi jiev

,
AlyvTrrov oi)S' eeori fiaoiXea xcopi5 lepariKrjs
apxeiv, dXX' edv dpa /cai tu^ji Trporepov

i
aAAou
E

yeVon? fiiaodp.evos, vorepov avayKalov els tovto


eloreXelodai avrov to yevos' eri Se /cai tcw
'EAA^vcov TroAAa^o5 rai? /ieyiWai? dpxous ta /xe'-
yiara rcov Trepi ta roiairra dvp.ara evpoi tis av
dveiv. Kal Kal Trap' vp.lv ovx

ST)
Trpoorarrop.eva
rjKiora SrjXov o yap Xaxovri fiaoiXel
Xeyuf to>

cf>aoi rfjoe ta oep.vorara Kal p.dXiora TraVpia tcov


apxoilcov dvoicov dTroSe8oodai.
ne. 2n. Kai Travv ye.
291 HE. Tovtovs re tolvvv tovs KXtjpcotovs fiaoiXeas
ap.a Kal lepeas, Kal vrnqperas avrcov Kal riva erepov
Trdp.TroXvv oxXov aKeTrreov, os dpri KardorjXos vvv
rjp.lv yeyovev aTroxcopiodevrcov tcov ep.Trpoodev.
Tiva? avrovs Kal Xeyeis;
S'

ne. 2n.
HE. Kai p.dXa rivds drorrovs,
ne. sn. Ti ST);
HE. Yldpuf>vXov ri yevos avro>v, u\s ye apri oKo-
Trovp,evcu cf>alverai. ttoXXoI p.ev yap Xeovoi tc>jv
dv8pcov eiaoi Kal Kevravpois Kal toiovtololv ere-
pois, Trdp.TroXXoi Se Harvpois Kal rols dodeveoi
B

Kal ttoXvtpottois drjplois' ra^i) Se /xeraAAdrrouoi


rds re I8eas Kal rrjv Svvap.iv els dXXrjXovs. Kal
p,evroi p.oi vvv, Sui/cpare?, apn SoKd> Karavevorj-
o)

Kevai tovs avopas.


ne. sn. Aeyois av eoiKas yap droTrov tl Kad-
opav.
Iii2
THE STATESMAN
on the track of our quarry. For the bearing of
the priests and prophets is indeed full of pride,
and they win high esteem because of the magnitude
of their undertakings. In Egypt, for example, no
king can rule without being a priest, and if he
happens to have forced his way to the throne from
some other class, he must enroll himself in the class
of priests afterwards ; and among the Greeks, too,
you would find that in many states the performance
of the greatest public sacrifices is a duty imposed
upon the highest ollicials. Yes, among you Athenians
this is very plain, for they say the holiest and most
national of the ancient sacrifices are performed by
the man whom the lot has chosen to be the
King.*
y. soc. Yes, certainly.
str. We must, then, examine these elected kings
and priests and their assistants, and also another very
large crowd of people which has just come in sight
now that the others are out of the way.
y. soc. Who are these people ?
str. A very queer lot.
y. soc. How so ?
str. They are of very mixed race , at least they
seem so now, when I can just see them. For many
of them are like lions and centaurs and other fierce
creatures, and very many are like satyrs and the
weak and cunning beasts ; and they make quick
exchanges of forms and qualities with one another.
Ah, but now, Socrates, I think I have just made out
who they are.
y. soc. Tell me ; for you seem to have caught
sight of something strange.
1
The second in order of the nine annual archons.
123
PLATO

HE. Nar to yap aronov e dyvolas Trdoi ovjijial-


Kal yap Kal vvv avros tovto eTradov

8rj
vei.
rjficbeyvorjoa /canScuv
ealcf>vrjs tov Trepl ra row
noXecov Trpd.ypia.TCl ^opov .
C

ne. 2n. Ylolov;


HE. Tov tcov oocf>iotu>v p.eyiorov yorjra
Trdvrcov
Kai raurij? rrjs rexvrjs ep.Treiporarov ov dTro tcov
ovrcos ovtcov ttoXitiKujv Kai /JaoiAi/ccov KalTrep
TrayxdXeTrov ovra dcf>aipelv dcf>aipereov

el
p,eXXop,ev

,
iSelv ivapycos to ^rjrovp,evov .
ne. 2n. 'AAAd p.rjv tovto ye ovK dvereov.
Srj

HE. OvKovv /cara ye ttjv eurjv. /cai /.ioi ^pae


roSe.
NE. 2n. To Ttolov;
31. HE. 'Ap' oi5 p.ovapxla tcov ttoXltlKcov rjp.lv
apxcov eori pua;
D

NE. 2n. Nai.


HE. Kai
p.era p.ovapxlav elTroi tis dv, olp.ai, rrjv
vtto tcov oXlycov Svvacrrelav
.

ne. sn. Hcos ov;


S'

HE. TpiVov Se o^ij/ia TroAireia? oix tou TtATj-


1j

dovs ap^ij' SrjuoKparla roVvop.a KXvfieioa;


ne. 2n. Kai1 Travu ye.
ouoai /Licov ov Trevre rpoTrov tivo.
S'

HE. Tpels
ylyvovrai, Svo eavrcov dXXa Trpos avrais 6v6p.ara
e

riKrovoai
;

ne. 2n. Iloia


HE. Ylpos to /Ji'aiov ttov /cai eKovoiov dTrooKo-
E

Trovvres vvv Kal Trevlav Kal ttXovtov Kal vop.ov /cai


dvop.lav ev avrals yiyvop.eva SnrXfjv e/care'pav tolv
Svolv SiaipoiVref p.ovapxlav p.ev Trpooayopevovoiv
Kai B.
1

0111.

124
THE STATESMAN
str. Yes, for ignorance makes things seem strange
to everybody. That was what happened to me just
now ; when I suddenly caught sight of them I did
not recognize the troop of those who busy themselves
with the alfairs of the state.
Y. soc. What troop ?
str. That which of all the sophists is the greatest
charlatan and most practised in charlatanry. This,
although it is a hard thing to do, must be separated
from the band of really statesmanlike and kingly
men, if we are to get a clear view of the object of
our search.
y. soc. But we certainly cannot give that up.
str. No, of course not. I agree to that. And
now please answer a question.
y. soc. What is it ?
str. We agree that monarchy is one of the forms
of government, do we not ?
Y. soc. Yes.
srii. And after monarchy one might; I should suYi
mention the rule of the few.
y. soc. Yes, of course.
str. And a third form of government is the rule
of the multitude, called democracy, is it not ?
y. soc. Yes, certainly.
str. Do not these three become after a fashion
five, producing out of themselves two additional
names ?
y. soc. What names ?
str. People nowadays are likely to take into
consideration enforced subjection and voluntary
obedience, poverty and wealth, law and lawlessness
as they occur in governments, and so they divide
two of the forms we mentioned, giving to the two
125
PLATO

d>s 8vo Trapexop.evrjv elSrj 8volv 6vop.aoi, rvpavvlSi,


to Se fiaoiXiKfj .

NE. 2X>. Ti' jirjv;


He. Trjv eKaorore Kparrjdeloav
Se vtto oXlycov ye
TroXiv dpioroKparla /cai 6Xiyapxla.
ne. sn. Kai Trdvv ye.
HE. Arjp.oKparlas ye pvqv, edvr ovv /Jiai'co? edvre
292 eKovolcos rcov tos ovolas exovru>v to TrXrjdos
apxV> Kai caiTe toi)? voplovs d/cpijSco? cpvXdrrov
edvre pvij, Trdvrcos rovvop.a ouSei? avrrjs elcode
p.eraXXdrreiv .
ne. sn. 'AXrjdrj.
HE. Ti ow; olouedd riva rovrcov rcov TroXireiujv
opdrjv elvai rovrois roi? opcns opiodeioav, evl /cai
oAi'yoi? /cai TroXXols, Kal TrXovrcp /cai Trevla, Kal rcp
jSiai'o> /cai eKovolco, /cai jU.erd ypap.p.drcov Kal dvev
v6p.cov vp.fialvovoav ylyveodai ;
ne. 2n. Ti
Sr)

yap /cai /cuiAuei;


St)

HE. "EiKoTrei oaipeorepov rfjSe eTrop.evos.


B

ne. sn. TITj;


HE. Toi prjdevri Kara Trpcoras Trorepov ep.p.evovp,ev
Siacpcovrjoop.ev
rj

Sr) ;

ne. 2n. Tco Xeyeis; Troi'co


HE. Tt)v fiaoiXiKrjv apxqv rd>v eTrujrr/p.d>v elval
riva ecpap,ev, olp.ai.
ne. 2n. Nai.
HE. Kai rovrcov ye ovx aTraocov, dAAd KpiriKrjv
SrjTrov riva Kal emctrariKrjv e/c rcov dXXcov TrpoeiXo-
p.eda.
ne. 2n. Nai.
Kd/c rrjs emorariKrjs rrjv p,ev eTr difivxois
HE.
epyois, rqv Se eTrl ^c,>ois' Kal Kara rovrov rov
Sr)
C

126
THE STATESMAN

aspects of monarchy the two names tyranny and


royalty.
Y. soc. Certainly.
str. And the state that is ruled by the few is
called, as the case may be, aristocracy or oligarchy.
y. soc. To be sure.
str. In the case of democracy, however, whether
the multitude rule those who have property by
violence or with their willing consent, and whether
the laws are carefully observed or not, no one ever
habitually changes the name.
y. soc. True.
str. Now then, do we believe that any of these
forms of government which are defined by the dis
tinctions between the one, the few, and the many,
or wealth and poverty, or violence and willingness, or
written constitution and absence of laws, is a
right one ?
y. soc. I
don't see why not.
stk. Look a bit more closely along the line 1 am
going to point out.
y. soc. What is it ?
str. Shall we abide by what we said in the
beginning, or dissent from it ?
y. soc. To what do you refer ?
str. We said, 1 believe, that royal power was one
of the sciences.
y. soc. Yes.
sth. And not only a science, but we selected it
from the rest as a science of judgement and command.
Y. soc. Yes.
str. And from the science of command we dis
tinguished one part which rules inanimate works, and
one which rules living beings ; and so we have gone

127
PLATO

rpoTrov p.epl^ovres Sevp' del TrpoeXrjXvdap.ev, iTrurrq-


p.rjs ovK eTriXavdavop.evoi, to S' rjti?1 ovx iKavd>s
ttCu2 8vvdpevoi SiaKpificooaodai.
ne. 2n. Ae'yei? opdcos.
HE. Tout' avro tolvvv dp' evvoovp.ev, otl tov
opov ovK oXlyovs ovSe ttoXXovs, ouSe to IKovolov,
oi5Se to a.Kovoiov, ovSe Trevlav ovSe ttXovtov yiyve-
odai Trepl avrcov xpecov, dXXd riva eTriorrjpvrfv , elTrep
aKoXovdrjoop,ev tols Trpoodev;
]) 32, NE, 2n. 'AAAa p.rjv tovto ye dSvvarov
/xr) Troieiv.
tovto ovtco oKeTireov,
St)
HE. 'E dvdyKrjs vvv
ev tlvl ttote tovtcov lmorrjp.rj vp.fialvei ylyveodai
Trepl dvdpcuTrcov dpxrjs, oxeoov rtjs xaXeTrcorarris KclI
/ieyictrij? Krrjoaodai. Sel yap ISelv avrrjv, Iva
deaocop.eda rivas dcf>aipereov djro tov fypovlp.ov
Trpoomoiovvrai p,ev elvai ttoXltlKoI KolI
ol

fiaoiXecos,
Treidovoi ttoXXovs, eiol Se ov8ap.cos .
NE. 2n. Aci yap Troielv tovto, cbs
Sr)

Aoyo?
rjp.lv TrpoelprjKev . 6
HE. Mcov ovv SoKei ye ev TroXei raiWrjv
E

TrXrflos
rrpr eTriorrjp.rjv 8vvarov elvai Krrjoaodai
;

NE. 2n. Kai Trai?;


He. 'AAA' dpa ev ^lAidVSpco TroAei 8vvarov
eKarov rivas Kal TrevrrjKovra avr,qv iKavcos
rj

Krrjoaodai;
'Paorrj /ieW dv
y'

NE. 2n. ovtco elrj Traocov to>v


rexvcov lop.ev yap otl xiXlcdv dvopcov a/cpoi
Trerrevrai tooovtol Trpos tovs iv tols aAAd?
"EXXrjmv ovK dv yevoivro Trore, tl
St)

p.rj
jiaoiXels ye. Sei yap tov ye trjv fiaoiXiKr)v
ST)

rjv rIS T. BT Vlllff.


B
1

TjriS] ?jv
2

r1S TrU>\ trWS tr011


I

128
THE STATESMAN
on dividing in this manner to the present moment,
never forgetting that it is a science, but as yet unable
to state with sufficient accuracy what science it is.
y. soc. You are right
str. Then this our understanding, that the
is
distinction between forms of government ought not
to be found in the words few or many, or voluntary
or unwilling, or wealth or poverty, but some science
must be the distinguishing feature, if we are to be
consistent with our previous statement ?
y. soc. Yes, indeed ; it cannot be otherwise.
str. Necessarily, then, our present duty is to
inquire in which, if any, of these forms of govern
ment is engendered the science of ruling men, which
is about the greatest of sciences and the most difficult
to acquire. We must discover that in order to see
what men are to be distinguished from the wise
king men, I mean, who pretend to be, and make
many believe that they are, statesmen, but are
really not such at all.
y. soc. Yes, we must do this ; that is implied in
what was said before.
str. Does,it seem at all possible that a multitude
in a state could acquire this science ?
y. soc. By no means.
str. But in a state of one thousand men could
perhaps a hundred or as many as fifty acquire it
adequately ?
y. soc. No, in that case this would be the easiest
of all the arts ; for we know that a city of a thousand
men could never produce that number of finished
draught-players in comparison with those in other
Greek cities, still less so many kings. For the man

VoL. Ill K 129


PLATO

exovra imorrjpirjv , av t dpxu Kal ^v p.rj'


293 /cara rov eparpoodev Xoyov op.cos fiaoiXiKov Trpoo-
ayopeveodai.
HE. KaXcos aTrep,vrjuovevoas . eTrop.evov Se, olp.ai,
rovrco rrjv p.ev opdrjv apxty TrefX eva rWa /cai Svo
Kal TravrdTraoiv oXlyovs Sel ^rjreiv, orav opdrj ylyvrj-
rGU.
NE. 2n. Ti p.rjv;
HE. Tou'tou? Se ye, edvre (Kovtcov edvre olKovtcov
apxcocnv, edvre Kara ypdp.p.ara edvre dvev ypap.p.d-
toov, Kal edv TrXovrovvres r) Trevop.evoi, vop.ioreov ,
cooTrep vvv rjyovp.eda, Kara rexv-ijv rjvrivovv apxrjv
B dpxovras . rovs larpovs Se ovx r^Kiora vevop.iKa-
p,ev, edvre eKovras edvre aKovras rjp.ds Icovrai,
rep.vovres Kalovres rj riva dXXrjv dXyrfiova
r)
TrpoodTrrovres, Kal edv Kara ypdp.jxara rj xcop1s
ypap.p.drcov, Kal edv Trevrjres dvres rj TrXovoioi,
Trdvrcos ovSev fjrrov larpovs cf>ap.ev, ecooTrep av eVri-
orarovvres rexvrl> Kadalpovres elre dXXcos Ioxval-
vovres elre Kal avdvovres, av p.6vov eTr' dyadco
rcp rcov ocop.dra>v , fieXrlco Troiovvres eV xeipovcov ,
C ou>coCw> ol depaTrevovres eKaoroi ra depaTrevo-
p.eva, ravrrj drjoop.ev, co? oi/iai, Kal ovK dXXjj,
rovrov opov opdov elvai p.ovov larpiKrjs Kal dXXrjs
rjcmvooovv apx^js.
NE. 2n. Ko/uSij p,ev ovv.
Srj

33. HE. 'AvayKalov Kal


TroXireiciv d>s
,

eoiKe, ravrrjv oiacf>ep6vrcos opdrjv elvai Kal p.ovrjv


TroXirelav, ev ris av evploKoi roi>s dpxovras dXrjdcos
fj

130
THE STATESMAN
who possesses the kingly science, whether he rule or
not, must be called kingly, as our previous argument
showed.
str. You did well to remind me. And in agree
ment with this, we must, I suppose, look for the
right kind of rule in one or two or very few men,
whenever such right rule occurs.
y. soc. Certainly.
str. And these men, whether they rule over
willing or unwilling subjects, with or without written
laws, and whether they are rich or poor, must,
according to our present opinion, be supposed to
exercise their rule in accordance with some art or
science. And physicians olfer a particularly good
example of this point of view. Whether they cure
us against our will or with our will, by cutting us or
burning us or causing us pain in any other way, and
whether they do it by written rules or without them,
and whether they are rich or poor, we call them
physicians just the same, so long as they exercise
authority by art or science, purging us or reducing
us in some other way, or even adding to our weight,
provided only that they who treat their patients
treat them for the benelit of their health and
preserve them by making them better than they
were. In this way and no other, in my opinion, shall
we determine this to be the only right definition
of the rule of the physician or of any other rule
whatsoever.
y. soc. Very true.
str. It is, then, a necessary consequence that
among forms of government that one is pre
eminently right and is the only real government, in
which the rulers are found to be truly possessed
18]
PLATO

emorrjp.ovas Kal ov SoKovvras p.6vov, edvre Kara


vop.ovs Idvre avev vop.cov dpxcooi, Kal eKovro>v rj
D aKovrcov, Kal Trev6p,evoi T) TrXovrovvres , rovrcov
vTroXoyioreov ovSev ovSap.cos eivai Kar' ov8ep.lav
opdorrjra.
NE. 2n. KaAai?.
HE. Kai edvre ye dTroKrivvvvres rivas r) Kal e/c-
fidXXovres Kadalpcoaiv eTr' dyadco rrjv ttoXiv, elre Kal
aTroiKias olov opirjvr) p,eXirrcov eKTrepmovres Troi
opuKporepav ttolcoalv, rj rivas eTreioayop.evol Trodev
dXXovs ecodev TroXlras Troiovvres avrrjv avcooiv,
ecooTrep dv emorrjp.rj Kal rco oiKalcp Trpoaxpcop.evoi
oco^ovres 6/c xelpovos fieXrlco Troicooi Kara Svvap.iv,
E ravrrjv rore Kal Kara rovs roiovrovs opovs rjp.lv
p.0vrjv opdrjv TroXirelav elvai prjreov doas Se dXXas
Xeyop.ev, ov yvrjolas ovb" ovrcos oiioas XeKreov, dXXd
p,ep.ip.rjp.evas ravrrjv, a? p,ev cos1 evvop.ovs Xeyop,ev,
eTrl rd KaXXlco, rds Se dXXas eTrl rd aloxlova p.ep.ip,rj-
odai.
NE. 2n. Ta p.ev aAAa,
eve, p.erplcos eoiKev
co

elprjodai, ro Se Kal avev vop.cov Seiv dpxeiv ^aAe-


Trcorepov aKoveiv epprjdrj.
HE. Hp.iKp6v ye ecf>drjs p.e epop,evos, co HcoKpares.
294 ep.eXXov yap oe Siepcorrjoeiv ravra Trorepov dTro-
Se'^ei Trdvra, rj ri Kal Svoxepalveis rcov Xexdevrcov
vvv Se rjSrj cf>avepov, dri rovro fiovXrjo6p.eda ro
Trepi rrjs rcov avev vop.cov apxovrcov opdorrjros
SieXdelv rjp.as.
NE. 2n. Il
co? yap ov;
HE. TpoTrov p.evroi rivd SrjXov ori rij? fiaoiXiKrjs
eorlv rj vop.oderiKrj, ro S' dpiorov ov rovs vop.ovs
1
As fiiv ws Stallbaura : da^vws B : aayJvws T.
132
THE STATESMAN
of science, not merely to seem to possess it, whether
they rule by law or without law, whether their
subjects are willing or unwilling, and whether they
themselves are rich or poor none of these things
can be at all taken into account on any right method.
y. soc. Excellent.
str. And whether they purge the state for its
good by killing or banishing some of the citizens,
or make it smaller by sending out colonies some
where, as bees swarm from the hive, or bring in
citizens from elsewhere to make it larger, so long as
they act in accordance with science and justice and
preserve and benefit it by making it better than it was,
so far as is possible, that must at that time and by
such characteristics be declared to be the only right
form of government. All other forms must be con
sidered not as legitimate or really existent, but as
imitating this ; those states which are said to be well
governed imitate it better, and the others worse.
Y. soc. Everything else that you have said seems
reasonable ; but that government should be carried
on without laws is a hard saying.
str. You got ahead of me a little with your
question, Socrates ; for I was just going to ask
whether you accepted all I have said, or were dis
pleased with anything. But now it is clear that we
shall have to discuss the question of the propriety
of government without laws.
y. soc. Of
course we shall.
str. In a sense, however, it is clear that law
making belongs to the science of kingship ; but the
best thing is not that the laws be in power, but that

133
PLATO

ioriv loxveiv, dXXd dv8pa tov pierd cf>povrjoeois


ftaoiXiKov . olod' 0Trrj;

8rj
NE. 2n. Ylfj Ae'yei?;
EE. "On voJios oVK oiv TroTe BvvGiiTo tO te apc-
otov Kal to Si/caidrarov d/cpi/Jai? d/ia Traoiv Trepi-
B

Xaficov to fieXriorov ettlto/tteiv ai yap aVo/i0id-


rrjres tcov re dvdpcomov Kal tcov Trpdecov Kal to1
p.rj8eTrore jirjSev, cI>s 6Tr0? LTreiv rjoV^iav dysiv

,
rcbv dvdponrlvcov ovSev ed>oiv dTrXovv ev ouSeid Trepl
aTravrcov Kal eTrl Trdvra tov xpovov dTrocf>alveodai
rexvrjv ovS' rjvrivovv. ravra

Sr)
ovyxcopovp.ev Ttou;
ne. 2n. Ti p.rjv;
HE. Tov Se ye vop.ov 6pd>p,ev o^eSdV eTr' aurd
tovto vvrelvovra, cooTrep rivd dvdpumov avdd8rj
/cai dp.adrj Kal p.rj8eva p.rjSev ed>vra Troielv Trapd ttjv
C

eavrov rdiv, /xrjS' eTrepcorav p.rj8eva, P.rjS' dv ti


veov dpa to> vp.ftalvrj fieXriov Trapd tov Xoyov ov
avros eTreraev.
NE. 2n. 'AXrjdrj, Troiei yap arc^di?, KaddTrep
elprjKas vvv, vop.os rjp.lv e/cdoroi?.
6

HE. OvKovv dSvvarov eS exeiv Trp6s rd p.rj8eTrore


dTrXa to Sid Travr0? yiyvop,evov dTrXovv;
NE. 2n. Kiv8vvevei.
Aid ti rtot' ow dvay/caiov vop.oderelv
ST^

34, HE.
,

eTreiSijTrep ou/c dpdorarov vop.os; dvevpereov


6

D tovtov rrjv alrlav.


NE. 2Xn. Ti /irjv;
HE. Ou/cow /cai eioi rive? oiai /cai
TTap' i3cuv
ev aAAai? TrdAeaii' ddpocov dvdpcoTrcov dcrKrjoeis, eire
Trpd? 8p6p.ov eire Trp6s dXXo ti, cf>iXoveiKias eW/ca;
NE. 2n. Kai Trdvv ye TroXXal.

rb] tov BT.


1

134.
THE STATESMAN
the man who is wise and of kingly nature be ruler.
Do you see why ?
y. soc. Why is it ?
str. Because law could never, by determining
exactly what is noblest and most just for one and
all, enjoin upon them that which is best ; for the
dilferences of men and of actions and the fact that
nothing, I may say, in human life is ever at rest,
forbid any science whatsoever to promulgate any
simple rule for everything and for all time. We
agree to that, I suppose ?
y. soc. Yes, of course.
str. But we see that law aims at pretty nearly
this very thing, like a stubborn and ignorant man
who allows no one to do anything contrary to his
command, or even to ask a question, not even if
something new occurs to some one, which is better
than the rule he has himself ordained.
y. soc. True ; the law treats each and all of us
exactly as you describe.
str. So that which is persistently simple is in
applicable to things which are never simple ?
y. soc. I suppose so.
str. Why in the world, then; is it necessary to
make laws, since law is not the most perfect right ?
We must ask the reason for this.
y. soc. Yes, of course.
str. Well, there are here at Athens, as in other
cities, classes for practice in athletics to prepare for
contests in running or the like, are there not?
y. soc. Yes, a great many of them.
135
PLATO

HE. Oepe vvv dvaXdficop.ev TrdXiv p.vrjp.rj rds tcov


re^vrj yvji.va^ovriov imrdeis iv rals roiavrais
dpxcus.
NE. 2n. To ttolov;
HE. "Otl XeTrrovpyelv ovK eyxcopeiv rjyovvrai Kold'
eva e/caor0v, tco od>p.ari to TrpocrrjKov sKclotco
E Trpoorarrovres , dXXd Tra^vrepov olovrai oelv cos
eTr1 r0 TroAu /Cai eTr1 TroXXovs rYjv rov XvolreXovvroS

roi? ocop.aoi Troielodai rdiv. ,


NE. 2n.KaAcS?.
Srj

HE. Aio ye /cai iobu? ttovovs vvv SiSovtc? adpo-


ois d/ia jU.ev iopp.cooiv, d/ia Se /cai /caraTrauouoi
Spop.ov /cai TrdXrjs /cai Trdvrcov tcov Kara rd od>p.ara
Trovo>v.
ne. 2n. "Eori rairra.
HE. Kai tov tolvvv rjycop.eda, rov
vop.oderrjv
raloiv dyeXais imorarrjoovra rov SiKalov Tripi /cai
295 tcov Trpos dXXrjXovs vp./ioXalcov p.rj Trod' IKolvov
,

yevrjoeodai Trdoiv ddpoois Trpoorarrovra d/cpij5d>?


eVl e/caorO> to TrpoorjKov dTroSi86vai.
NE. 2n. To yovv ei/cd?.
HE. 'AAAd to roi? ttoXXois ye, oi/iai, /cai cos em
ro TroAl) /Cai 0Vrcoctl Traxvrepo>s e/CcZctr0i? r0v
v6p.ov drjoei,1 /cai eV ypdp.p.aoiv aTroSiSovs /cai eV
dypa/i/iaroi?, Trarplois Se edeoi vop.odercov .
NE. 2n. 'Opdcos.
'0pdcos p.evroi. ttcos yap dv tis IKavos
HE.
yevoir' dv Trore, co Sco/cpare?, d/crre Sid /Jiou dei
TrapaKadrjp,evos iKdorcp Si' d/cpi/Jeia? Trpoorarreiv
B

to TrpoorjKov eVei tovt dv 8vvaros cov, cos olp.ai,


;

tcov rrjv ^aoiXiKrjv octtioovv ovtcos eTnorrip.rjv


BT.
1

8riaei] drioeiv
136
THE STATESMAN
str. Now let us recall to mind the orders given
by the professional trainers when they are in charge
of such classes.
y. soc. What do you mean ?
str. They think they cannot go into details in
individual cases and order what is best for each
person's physique ; they think they must employ
a rougher method and give a general rule which
will be good for the physique of the majority.
y. soc. Good.
str. And therefore they nowadays assign equal
exercise to whole classes ; they make them begin at
the same time and stop at the same time, whether
they run or wrestle or practise any other kind of
bodily exercise.
y. soc. That is true.
sth. And so we must believe that the law-maker
who is to watch over the herds and maintain justice
and the obligation of contracts, will never be able
by making laws for all collectively, to provide exactly
that which is proper for each individual.
y. soc. Probably not, at any rate.
str. But he will, I fancy, legislate for the majority
and in a general way only roughly for individuals,
whether he issues written laws or his enactments
follow the unwritten traditional customs.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. Yes, quite right. For how could anyone,
Socrates, sit beside each person all his life and tell
hiin exactly what is proper for him to do ? Certainly
anyone who really possessed the kingly science, if
he were able to do this, would hardly, I imagine,

137
PLATO

elXrjcf>6rcov ct^oATJ Tror' dv eavrcp delr' ep.TroSlop.ara


ypdcf>cov roiis Xexdevras rovrovs v6p.ovs.
NE. 2n. 'E/c rd>v vvv yovv, c3 (jive, elprjp.evcov.
HE. MdAAov Se ye, co fieXriore, eK rcov p,eXX6vrcov
prjdrjoeodai.
NE. 2n. TiVcov Srj;

S1j
HE. Tcov roicovSe. eiTro>p,ev yap rr/30? yc rjp.ds
auroiJj, larp6v p.eXXovra /cai nva yvp.vaoriKov dTro-
C

rj
8rjp.elv Kal dTreoeodai rcov depaTrevop.evcov ovxvov,
cos oloiro,xp6vov,p.rj p.vrjp.ovevoeiv olrjdevra raTrpoo-

raxdevra roiis yvp.va^op,evovs roiis Kap.vovras

rj

,
vTrop.vrjp.ara ypdcf>eiv dv edeXeiv avrols, Trcos;

rj
NE. 2n. Ovrcos.
Ti
S'

HE. ei1 Trapd 86av eXdrrco xpovov aTroSij-


p.rjoas eXdoi TrdXiv; dp' ovK av Trap' eKelva rd ypdp.-
p.ara roXpn)oeiev dXXa vTrodeodai,
vp.fiaiv6vrcov
dXXcov fieXri6vcov rols Kap.vovoi Sia Trvevp.ara
D

Tj
ri Kal dXXo Trapd rrjv eXTrlSa rcov eK Ai6s erepcos S'
Tra>? rcov eluodoruov ycvop.eva, Kaprepcov av rjyolro
Selv p,rj eKfialveiv rd dpxdld Trore vop.oderrjdevra
p.rjre avr6v Trpoordrrovra dXXa p.rjre r6v Kapvovra
erepa roXp.d>vra Trapa ra
ypacf>evra Spav, cbs ravra
ovra larpiKa Kal vyieivd, rd Se erepcos yiyvop.eva
voocoSrj re Kal ovK evrexva' Trdv r6 roiovrov ev
r)

ye eTn.orrjp.rj vp.fiaivov Kal dXrjdel rexvQ Trepl


dTravra TravrdTraoi yeXcos av p,eyioros ylyvoiro
E

rdv roiovrcov vop.oderrjp.drcx>v


;

NE. sn. YlavraTraoi p.ev ovv.


Tco 8e rdKal dSiKa Kal KaXd Kal
Si'/caia
ST)

HE.
al&xpa Kai dyadd Kal KaKa ypdifiavri Kal dypacf>a
vop.oderrjoavri rals rd>v dvdpcoTrcov dyeXais, orrooai
5ai B.
T
ei]
5'
1

el

5?)
:

138
THE STATESMAN
ever put obstacles in his own way by writing what
we call laws.
y. soc. No, at least not according to what has
just been said.
str. Or rather, my friend, not according to what
is going to be said.
y. soc. What is that ?

str. Something of this sort : Let


us suppose that
a physician or a gymnastic trainer is going away
and expects to be a long time absent from his
patients or pupils ; if he thinks they will not
remember his instructions, he would want to write
them down, would he not ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. What if he should come back again after a
briefer absence than he expected? Would he not
venture to substitute other rules for those written
instructions if others happened to be better for his
patients, because the winds or something else had,
by act of God, changed unexpectedly from their usual
course ? Would he persist in the opinion that no
one must transgress the old laws, neither he himself
by enacting new ones nor his patient by venturing
to do anything contrary to the written rules, under
the conviction that these laws were medicinal and
healthful and anything else was unhealthful and
unscientific ? If anything of that sort occurred in
the realm of science and true art, would not any
such regulations on any subject assuredly arouse the
greatest ridicule ?
y. soc. Most assuredly.
str. But he who has made written or unwritten
laws about the just and unjust, the honourable and
disgraceful, the good and the bad for the herds
139
PLATO
/carei TroXiv ev eKdorais vop,evovrai Kara tovs tcov
ypaifidvrcov vop.ovs, aV 6 p.era rexyqs ypdifias ij n?
ravra

8rj
erepos dp.oios dcf>lKrjrai, p.rj eeorco Trapa
296 erepa Trpoorarreiv Kal tovto to aTropprjp.a

;
r)
oiSev ?ittov dv eKelvov rrj dXrjdela yeXolov cf>alvoiro

;
NE. 2n. Ti pvqv;
35' HE. 0lod' ovv eTrl tco tolovtco Xoyov tov
Trapa row ttoXXcov Xey6p.evov

;
NE. 2n. OvK evvoco vvv

y'
ovtcos.
Kai yap Selv, tis

el
Sr)
HE. p,rjv evTrpeTrrjs. cf>aol
yiyvdjoKei Trapd tovs ta>v epnrpoodev
fieXrlovs
vop.ovs, vop.oderelv rfjv eavrov ttoXiv eKaorov Trel-
oavra, dXXcos 8e p.rj.
ne. sn. Ti ovv; ovK opdcos;
tis ftid^rjrai to
S'

HE. "Iaoo?. dv oSv (irj Treldcov


B

fieXriov, dTroKpivai, n rovvop.a rrjs /Jia? eorai; pvrj

p.evroi ttco, Trepl 8e tcov ejnrpoodev Trporepov.


ne. sn. Iloiov
S1j

Xeyeis;
HE. "Av ti? apa p.rj Treldcov rov larpevop.evov,

excov Se opdd>s ttjv rexvrjv, Trapd ta yeypap.p.eva to


fieXriov dvayKd^rj 8pdv TralSa riva dv8pa Kal
rj

r)

yvvaiKa, ri rovvop.a rrjs /Ji'a? eorai ravrrjs; dp' 01)


Trav p.aXXov to Trapa rr)v rexvrjv Xey6p.evov dp.dp-
rj

rtjua to voocoSes; Kal Trdvra dpdd>s elTrelv eori


C

Trporepov tai fiiaodevri Trepl to toiovtov, TrXrjv ori


vooco8rj Kal drexva Tre,novdev vTr6 tcov fiiaoap.evcov
larpd>v;
NE. sn. 'AXrjdeorara Xeyeis.
Ti' Se r)p.lv to Trapd ttjv TroXmKrjv rexvrjv
8rj

HE.
140
THE STATESMAN
of men that are tended in their several cities in
accordance with the laws of the law-makers, is not
to be permitted to give other laws contrary to those,
if the scientific law-maker, or another like him,
should come ! Would not such a prohibition appear
in truth as ridiculous as the other ?
y. soc. It certainly would.
str. Do you know what people in general say
about such a case ?
y. soc. I don't recall it just now olf-hand.
str. Yes, it is very plausible ; for they say that if
anyone has anything better than the old laws to
olfer, he must first persuade the state, and then he
may make his laws, but not otherwise.
y. soc. And is that not right ?
str. Perhaps. But suppose a man does not use
persuasion, but makes an improvement by force.
What is this force to be called ? Answer me or,
no, not yet ; first answer in reference to what we were
talking of before.
y. soc. What do you mean ?

str. Suppose a physician who has right knowledge


of his profession does not persuade, but forces, his
patient, whether man, woman, or child, to do the
better thing, though it be contrary to the written
precepts, what will such violence be called ? The last
name in the world to call it would be " unscientific
and baneful error," as the phrase is, would it not?
And the patient so forced might rightly say anything
else rather than that he had been treated in a
baneful or unscientific way by the physicians who
used force upon him.
y. soc. Very true.
str. But what can we call the unscientific error
141
PLATO

dp.dprrjp.a Xey6p.ev6v eoriv; dp' ov to aloxpov Kal


KolKov Kal dSiKov;
NE. 2n. YlavraTraoi ye.
fii.aodivrO>v Trapa trx yeypap.p.iva Kal

Brj
2E. Tcuv
Trdrpia 8pav erepa Si/caioVepa Kal d/ieiVca Kal
KaXXlco tcov ep.Trpoodev, cf>ipe, tov tcov toiovtcov
D

av ifioyov Trepl trj? roiavrrjs filas, dp',

el
p,eXXei p.rj
KarayeXaororaros elvai Travra>v, Trdvra avrcp p,aX-
Xov XeKreov eKaorore, TrXrjv co? aio^pd Kal dSiKa
Kal KaKa TreTrovdaoiv ol fiiaodevres vtto tcov
fiiaoap,evcov
;

NE. 2n. 'AXrjdeorara Xeyeis.


'AAA' dpa

jj,
HE. edv p,ev TrXovoios ftiaodp,evos

d
Si/caia, dv apa Trevrjs, aSi/ca rd fiiaodevra eorlv;
S'

/cav Treloas Kav p.rj Treloas tis, TrXovoios Trevrjs,


rj r)

T)
Kara ypdp,p.ara Trapd ypdp,p.ara, Spa vp.cfx>pa,1
E

r)

tovtov Sel Kal Trepl ravra tov dpov elvai tov ye dXrj-
divcorarov 6pdrjs TroXecos SioiKrjoecos, ov oocf>6s Kal
d
ayados dvrjp SioiKrjoei to tujv dpxop.evcov cooTrep

d
;
Kvfiepvqrrjs to rrjs ved>s Kal vavrojv del vp.cf>epov
297 Trapacf>vXarrcov, ov ypdp,p.ara ridels dXXd ttjv rex-
vqv v6p.ov Trapex6p,evos acoei tovs ovvvavras ovtco
,
,

Kai /card tov avrov rp6Trov tovtov Trapa tujv ovtcos


dpxeiv 8vvap.evcov dpdrj yvyvoir dv TroXirela, ttjv
rrjs rexyrjs pcopvrp/ tcov vopuov Trapexop.evcov Kpeirrco;
Kal Trdvra Troiovoi tols ep.cf>pooiv dpxovoiv ovK eoriv
dp.dprrjp.a, p.expnrep av ev p.eya cf>vXarrojoi, to
juerd vov Kal rexvrjs SiKaiorarov del Siavep.ovres
B

rols ev ttj TroXei od>^eiv re avrovs olol re cooi


Kal dp.elvovs eK xeip6vcov dTroreXelv /cara to
Svvarov;
5p vficpopa Cornarius dp$ mss.
1

ixt) vficpopa vficpopa


^
:

142
THE STATESMAN
in the field of statesmanship ? Is it not baseness
and evil and injustice ?
v. soc. Certainly.
str. Now if people are forced, contrary to the
written laws and inherited traditions, to do what is
juster and nobler and better than what they did
before, tell me, will not anyone who blames such
use of force, unless he is to be most utterly ridiculous,
always say anything or everything rather than that
those who have been so forced have sulfered base
and unjust and evil treatment at the hands of those
who forced them ?
y. soc. Very true.
str. But would the violence be just if he who
uses it is rich, and unjust if he is poor? Ory if a
man, whether rich or poor, by persuasion or by other
means, in accordance with written laws or contrary
to them, does what is for the good of the people,
must not this be the truest criterion of right govern
ment, in accordance with which the wise and good
muii will govern the alfairs of his subjects? Just
as the captain of a ship keeps watch for what is at
any moment for the good of the vessel and the sailors,
not by writing rules, but by making his science his
law, and thus preserves his fellow voyagers, so may
not a right government be established in the same
way by men who could rule by this principle, making
science more powerful than the laws ? And whatever
the wise rulers do, they can commit no error, so long
as they maintain one great principle and by always
dispensing absolute justice to them with wisdom and
science are able to preserve the citizens and make
them better than they were, so far as that is possible.
Is not this true ?
143
PLATO

NE. 2n. OvK eor' dvrenreiv Trapd ye a vvv eX-


prjrcll.
HE. Kal p.rjv Trpos eKeiva ov8e dvripprjreov .

36. NE. 2ft. Td TrOUX eltre9 ;


HE.'Q? oi5/o aV ttots TrXrjdos ovb" covtivcovovv
rrjv roiavrrjv Xafiov emorrjp.'qv olov r' dv yevoiro
C p.erd vov SioiKelv ttoXiv, dAAd Tre/n op.iKpov rl Kal
oXlyov Kal to ev ecrn ^rjrrjreov ttjv p.lav eKelvrjv
TroXnelav rqv opdrjv, ras S' aAAa? /ii/x,^uara dereov,
cooTrep Kal oXlyov Trporepov epprfirj, to? p,ev em
to /caAAiova, to? Se em ra aio^ico p.ip.ovp,evas
rain,ijv.
NE.2n. Ilco? n tout' elprjKas; ov8e yap dpri
Srjdev Karep.adov to Trepl tcov ui/xijudVcov.
HE. Kai p.rjv ov cf>avXov ye, dv Kivrjoas ris tovtov
tov Xoyov avrov KarajidXrj Kal p,rj oieXdcov eVSei'ft^TOi
D to vvv yiyvop.evov dp.dprrjp.a Trepl avro.
ne. 2n. Hoiov 8rj;
HE. ToioVSe ti SeZ ye tpqrelv, ov Trdvv vvrjdes
ovoe paSiov loeiv o/ico? p.Tp> Treipd>p.eda Xafieiv
avro. $epe yap, opdrjs rjp.iv /x0V1j? ovorjs toutTj?
rrj? TroAitci'a?, elprjKap.ev, oiod' ori to? aAAa?
r)v

Sel tois ravrrjs ovyypdp.p.aoi xpcop.evas ovrco


oco^eodai, 8pcooas to vvv eTraivovp,evov KalTrep
,

ovK opdorarov ov;


NE. 2n. To Troiov;
HE. To
Trapa rovs vop.ovs p.rj8ev p.rjSeva roA/iaV
Troieiv tcov ev rfj TroXei, tov roXp.covra Se davdrcp
Kal ttoLoi tois eoxdrois. Kal tout'
E

{,rjp.iovodai
eoriv dpOorara Kal /caAAior' <Zx0v oevrspov,
8rj

eVreiSdv to Trpcorov ris p.eradfj to vvv prjdev

144
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. There is no denying the truth of what you
have just said.
str. And those other statements cannot be denied,
either.
y. soc. What statements ?
str. That no great number of men, whoever they
may be, could ever acquire political science and be
able to administer a state with wisdom, but our one
right form of government must be sought in some
small number or one person, and all other forms are
merely, as we said before, more or less successful
imitations of that.
y. soc. What do you mean by that ? I did not
understand about the imitations a little while ago,
either.
str. And yet it is quite matter if after
a serious
stirring up this question we drop it and do not go on
and show the error which is committed in relation
to it nowadays.
y. soc. What is the error ?
STn. I will tell you what we must investigate ; it
is not at all familiar or easy to see, but let us try to
grasp it nevertheless. Tell me this Assuming that
:

the form of government we have described is the


only right form, don't you see that the other forms
must employ its written laws if they are to be pre
served by doing that which is approved of nowadays,
although it is not perfectly right ?
y. soc. What is not perfectly right ?
str. That no citizen shall dare to do anything
contrary to the laws, and that he who does shall be
punished by death and the most extreme penalties.
And this is perfectly right and good as a second
choice, as soon as you depart from the first form of
vol m l 145
PLATO

iori tovto

8rj
cp Se r/3oTrOJ yeyovos o Sevrepov
e$rjoap,ev SiaTrepavcop.eda yap;

rj
,

.
ne. 2Xn. Hdvv p,ev ovv.

S1j
37. HE. EiV to? sIKovols eTravlcop.ev TrdXiv,
als dvayKalov dTreiKa^eiv del tovs fiaoiXiKovs
dpxovras.
ne. 2n. Ylolas;
HE. Tov yevvalov Kvfiepvrjrrjv Kal tov erepcov
ttoXXcov dvraiov larpov. KanScop.ev yap orj n
oxfjp,a ev tovtols avrols TrXaodp,evoi

.
ne. 2n. Ylolov n;
ToioVSe olov Siavorj-
el
298 He. Trdvres Trepl avrcov
delp.ev, ori Seivorara vTr' avrojv Trdo)(op,ev . ov p,ev
yap av edeXrjocooiv rjp.d>v tovtcov eKarepoi ad>^eiv,
S'

oq>^ovoiv, ov av Xcofiaodai fiovXrjdcooi,


S15

o/ioi'co?
Xcofid>vrai rep.vovres Kai Kalovres Kal Trpoorarrov-
res dvaXcop.ara cf>epeiv Trap' iavroi>s olov cf>6povs,
a>v op.iKpd p,ev els tov Kap.vovra Kal ov8ev dvaXl-

oKovcrl,tols S'aAAoi? avroi re /cai oloiKerai ^pcSvrar


Kal Kal reXevrowres
Srj
B

Trapd vyyevcov Trapd


rj

tivcov xdpd>v tov Kap.vovros xprjfiara p.iod6v r)

Xap.fidvovres dTroKrivvvaoiv . ol t av Kvfiepvrjrai


p,vpla erepa roiavra epyd^ovrai, KaraXelTrovres1 re
eK tivos emBovXrjs ev rai? dvaycoyals eprjp.ovs,
Kal ocf>dXfxara Troiovvres ev tols TreXdyeoiv eKfidX-
Xovoiv els trjv ddXarrav Kal erepa KaKovpyovav.
,

orj ravra oiavorjdevres BovXevoalp.eda Trepl avrcov


el

Kara\etTrovres codd. Paris. BCH KaTaXurivres BT.


1

Cf. Homer, Iliad, xii. 51+ irirpbs yap dWjp TroWuv avrd^os
1

&X\wv. The image of the physician was used above, 293.


The image of the captain (for the Greek Kvfiepvrirris had an
146
THE STATESMAN
which we were just speaking. Now let us tell in
some detail how this which we called the second
choice comes about. Shall we do so ?
y. soc. By all means.
str. Let us return once more to the images
which we always have to use in portraying kingly
rulers.
y. soc. What images ?

str. The noble captain of a ship and the " physician


"
who is worth as much as many others.1 Let us
make a simile of them and use it to help us to
discover something.
y. soc. What is your simile ?
str. Something of this sort : Imagine that we all
thought in regard to captains and physicians : " We
are most abominably treated by them. For whomso
ever of us either of them wishes to save, he saves,
one of them just like the other, and whomsoever
he wishes to maltreat, he maltreats. They cut us
up and burn us and order us to bring them payments
of money, as if they were exacting tribute, of which
they spend little or nothing for their patients ; they
themselves and their servants use the rest. And
finally they are bribed by the patient's relatives or
enemies and actually bring about his death. And
as for the captains, the}' commit countless other
misdeeds ; they make plots and leave us deserted
ashore when they put out to sea, they bring on
mishaps at sea and so cast us into the water, and are
guilty of other wrong-doings."
Now suppose, with these thoughts in mind, we

importance commensurate with that of the captain, rather


than of the pilot, in modern times) has just been used. See
also Republic, vi. 488 a ; Laws xii. 963 n.
147
PLATO
C fiovXrjv riva, tovtcov tcov rexvcov p.rjKeri emrpeTreiv
dpxeiv avroKpdropi jxrj8erepa pvfjr ovv SovXcov p.rjr'
eXevdepcov, vXXeai Se eKKXrjolav rjjx.cov avrcov,
r) vp.rva.vTatov Sr)p.ov fj tovs TrXovcjlovs jx.6vov,
eelvai Se Kal iSicurciiv Kal tcov dXXcov Srjpiiovpyd>v
Tripl re ttXov Kal Trepl voocov yvcop.rjv vp.ftaXeodai,
Kad' o tl xprj tols cf>app.dKois rjp.ds Kal tols larpiKols
Kal

Sij
opydvois Trpos tovs Kap.vovras xprjodai, Kal
rols ttXolois re avrols Kal tols vavriKols opydvois
D

els rrjv tcov ttXoIcov xpelav Kal Trepl tovs KlvSvvovs


tovs tc Trpos avrov tov ttXovv dvep.cov Kal daXarrrjs
Trepi Kal Trpos ras tols Xrjorals ivreveis, Kal edv
vavp.axelv dpa Serj Trov p.aKpols ttXolois Trpos erepa
roiavra, to Se tco TrXrjdei 86avra Trepl tovtcov,
elre tivcov larpcov Kal KvfiepvTfrcov eir' dXXcov
ISicotcov vp.ftovXev6vrcov, ypdifiavras ev Kvpfieol
rim Kal orrjXais, to. Se Kal dypacf>a Trarpia dep.e-
E

vovs edrj, /cara. tout' Tj'Srj TrdvTa tov eTreira xpovov


vavrlXXeodai Kal rd? tcov Kap.v6vrcov depaTrelas
Troielodai.
NE. 2n. K0/x1Srj ye eiprjKas droTra.
HE. Kar'
eviavrov Se ye dpxovras Kadloraodai
tov TrXrjdovs, elre IK tcov TrXovoccov elre e/c tov
8rjp.ov Travros, os dv KXrjpovp.evos Xayxdvrf tovs
Se Karaoravras dpxovras apxeiv /card rd ypdjxp.ara
Kvfiepvcovras rd? vavs Kal tovs Kap.vovras Icop.evovs.
NE. 2n. Taur' eri xaXeTrcorepa.
Kal to /xerd ravra eTro^evov.
Sij

38. HE. Qeco


Srj

eTrei.8dv yap tcov dpxdvrow e/cdorois eviav


d

148
THE STATESMAN
deliberated about them and decided that we would
no longer allow either of these arts to rule without
control over slaves or free men, but that we would
call an assembly either of all the people or of the
rich only, and that anyone, whether he were engaged
in some other form of skilled labour or were without
any special qualifications, should be free to olfer an
opinion about navigation and diseases, how drugs
and surgical or medical instruments should be applied
to the patients, and how ships and nautical instru
ments should be used for navigation and in meeting
dangers, not only those of winds and sea that alfect
the voyage itself, but also those met in encounters
with pirates, and if battles have to be fought between
ships of war ; and that whatever the majority
decided about these matters, whether any physicians
or ship captains or merely unskilled persons took
part in the deliberations, should be inscribed upon
tablets and slabs or in some instances should be
adopted as unwritten ancestral customs, and that
henceforth forever navigation and the care of the
sick should be conducted in accordance with these
provisions.
y. soc. That is a most absurd state of things that
you. have described.
str. And suppose that rulers of the people are set
up annually, whether from the rich or from the whole
people, on the principle that whoever is chosen by
lot should rule, and that these rulers exercise their
authority in commanding the ships or treating the
sick in accordance with the written rules.
y. soc. That is still harder to imagine.
str. Now consider what comes next. When the
year of office has passed for each set of rulers, there
14.9
PLATO

tos i^eXdrj, Se^oei SiKaorrjpia Kadloavras1 dv8pcov,


299 r) t>v TrXovolcov e/c TrpoKploecos fj vpnravros av
tov SrjjJiov tovs Xaxovras, els tovtovs elodyeiv tovs
dpgavras Kal evdvveiv, Karrjyopelv Se tov /SouAd-
p.evov cos ov Kara ra ypdp,p.ara tov eviavrov eKv-
ftepvqoe rds vavs ovSe Kara rd TraXaid tcov Trpo-
yovcov edrj, rd avrd Se ravra /cai Trepl tcov tovs
Kap.vovras lcop.evcov cov S' dv Karaifirjcf>iodfj rip.av
o tl xprj Tradelv avrcov rivas rj dTroriveiv.
ne. 2n. OvKovv o y edeXcov Kal eKcov ev roi?
B toiovtois dpxeiv SiKaiorar' av otlovv Trdoxoi Kal
dTrorivoi.
HE. Kai tolvvv eri Se^aei deodai vop.ov eTrl Traoi
rovroIs, dv ris KvfiepvrjtlKrjv Kal ro vavtlKov r) ro
vyieivov Kal larpiKrjs dXrjdeiav Trepl Trvevp.ard re /cai
depp.d Kal ifivxpd tyjrcov fyalvTjrai Trapd rd ypa/i/iara
/cai oocf>i^6p,evos otiovv Trepl ra roiavra, Trpcorov
p.ev p.rjre larpiKov avrov p.rjre KvfiepvrjriKov 6vop.d-
eiv dAAd p.erecopoXoyov, dSoXeoxrjv rivd ooq^iorTjv,
eW cos Siacf>delpovra dXXovs vecorepovs /cai dva-
C Treldovra eTrirldeodai KvjiepvrjriKfj /cai larpiKjj /x1j
/card vop.ovs, dAA' avroKparopas dpxeiv tcov ttXolcov
Kal tcov vooovvtcov , ypaifidp,evov elodyeiv tov flov-
ti SiKaorrjpiov dv Se
8rj

Xopievov ols eeoriv els


Trapd tovs vop.ovs Kal ra yeypap.p,eva 86rj Treldeiv
eire veovs eire Trpeofivras, KoXd^eiv tois eoxdrois.
Ko,diaavras D Kadioravras T.
B

Kadriaavras
1

:
:

This passage obviously refers to the trial of Socrates.


1

The word p^riwpa was used by those who made all sorts of
general accusations against Socrates (see Apology, 18 b,
19 b, with its reference to the Clouds of Aristophanes), and
the reference of the words Suupdelpovra <SXXovs vewripovs to
the accusation brought against him by Miletus, Anytus,
150
THE STATESMAN
will have to be sessions of courts in which the judges
are chosen by lot either from a selected list of the
rich or from the whole people, and the rulers will
have to be brought before these courts and examined
as to their conduct in office, and anyone who pleases
can bring against the captains an accusation for
failure to command the ships during the year in
accordance with the written laws or the ancestral
customs, and similarly against the physicians for
their treatment of the sick ; and if any of them is
found guilty, the court shall decide what his punish
ment or his fine shall be.
y. soc. Surely anyone who consents voluntarily
to hold office under such conditions would richly
deserve any penalty or fine that might be imposed.
str. And then, in addition to all this, there will
have to be a law that if anyone is found to be
investigating the art of pilotage or navigation or the
subject of health and true medical doctrine about
winds and things hot and cold, contrary to the
written rules, or to be indulging in any specula
tion whatsoever on such matters, he shall in the
first place not be called a physician or a ship captain,
but a star-gazer,1 a kind of loquacious sophist,
and secondly anyone who is properly qualified may
bring an accusation against him and hale him into
court for corrupting the young and persuading them
to attack the arts of navigation and medicine in
opposition to the laws and to govern the ships and
the sick according to their own will ; and if he is
found to be so persuading either young or old
contrary to the laws and written rules, he shall sulfer
and Lycon (Apoloyy ,24 c cp,rfal y&p 5r; toi)s viovs ddiKeiv lie
diarjrBtipovra) is perfectly plain.
151
PLATO

ovoev yap oelv tcov v6p.ow elvai ooifxorepov ovSeva


yap ayvoelv to re larpiKov Kal to vyieivov ovSe
to KvfiepvrjriKov Kal vavriKov eelvai yap tco
D fiovXop.evcu p.avddveiv yeypap.p.iva Kai Trarpia edrj
ravra

8rj
Kelp.eva. Trepl re ravras ra? emorrjp.as
ylyvoiro ovtcos /cai
el

d>s Xeyop,ev, co ^.coKpares,


orparrjyiKrjs Kal vp.Trdo~qs rjorivooovv drjpevriKrjs
Kal ypacf>iKrjs vp.Trdorjs p.epos otlovv pup,rjriKrjs
r)

Kal reKroviKjjs Kal vvoXrjs oTroiaoovv oKevovpylas


Kal yecopylas Kal ttjs Trepl ta cf>vra vvoXrjs rexvqs,
r)

Kal riva ITrTrocf>opf}lav av Kara ovyypdp,p.ara


r)

deaoalp.eda yiyvop.evrjv vpuraoav dyeXaioKop.iKrjv


r)

p.avriKrjv Trdv o ti p.epos SiaKoviKrj TrepielXrjcf>ev,


rj

rj

Trerrelav vp.Traoav dpidp.rjriKr)v ifiiXrjv elre


E
r)

r)

eTrlrreSov eire iv fiddeoiv eire ev rdxeoiv1 ovodv



ttov, Trepl aTravra ravra ovtco Trparrop.eva n
ttot' av cf>avelrj, Kara ovyypdp.p.ara yiyvop.eva Kal
jirj /cara rexvrjv;
ne. 2n. ArjXov oti Trdoal re2 alrexvai TravreXios
av aTroAoivu rjp.iv, /cai ovoe eis avois yevoivr av
Trore Sia tov dTroKcoXvovra tovtov ^rjrelv vop.ov
o>ore /Ji'o?, c,>v Kal vvv xaXeTros, els tov xpovov
6

300 eKelvov dfilcoros ylyvoi^ av to TrapdTrav.


HE, Tt Sc roSe; Kara ovyypdp.p.ara
el

39'
p.ev dvayKd^oip.ev eKaorov ylyveodai td>v elprjp.evcov
Kal tols ovyypdp.p.aoiv rjp.cov eTriorarelv tov
,)(siporovrjdevra Xaxovra eK tu^Tj?, ovtos 8e p,rj8ev
rj

cppovrl^cov to>v ypap,p.arcov KepSovs eveKa3 tlvos


r)

xa.piros ISlas Trapa ravra imxeipol Spav erepa,


r)

pvq8ev yiyvcooKa>v dpa ov tov KaKov tov Trpoodev


,

p.el^ov av eri tovto yiyvoiro KaKov;


rdxeaiv] Tr&XWW al. tc om. B. cveKiv BT.
2
1

152
THE STATESMAN
the most extreme penalties. Nothing, they say,
ought to be wiser than the laws ; for no one
is ignorant of medicine and the laws of health or
of the pilot's art and navigation, since anyone who
pleases can learn the existing written rules and
ancestral customs. Now if these regulations which
I speak of were to be applied to these sciences,
Socrates, and to strategy and every part of the entire
art of hunting and to painting or every kind of
imitation and to carpentry including every kind of
utensil-making, or even to husbandry and all the
art that is concerned with plants, or if we were to
see an art of horse-breeding conducted by written
rules, or herdsmanship in general or prophecy or
everything that is included in the art of serving, or
draught-playing or the whole science of number,
whether arithmetic or plane geometry or solid
geometry or problems of motion what would you
think of carrying on all these in such a way, by
written rules and not by knowledge ?
Y. soc. Clearly all the arts would be utterly
ruined, nor could they ever rise again, through the
operation of the law prohibiting investigation ; and
so life, which is hard enough now, would then
become absolutely unendurable.
str. Here is a further point. If we ordained that
each of the aforesaid arts must be carried on by
written rules and that the observance of our written
rules be under the charge of the man who is elected
or chosen by lot, but he should disregard the written
rules and for the sake of some gain or to do a favour
to some one should try to act contrary to them,
without possessing any knowledge, would not this
be a greater evil than the former ?

153
PLATO
'
NE. 2n. AXrjdiorara ye.
B HE. Ilapd yap oi/iai roiis vop.ovs tovs eK Trelpas
TroWr)s Kcifxivovs KolL tlvcov {.vp,fZovXtov exaora
xapiivrcos $vp.fiovXevodvrcov Kal Treioavrcov deodai
to TrXrjdos, 6 Trapa ravra roXp.d>v 8pdv, dp.aprqp.a-
tos dp.dprrjp.a TroXXaTrXdoiov arrepya^6p,evos , dva-
rpeTroi Traoav dv Trpaiv en p,ei^6vcos tcov vyypap.-
p.ara>v.
NE. 2n. Ylcos 0 ov p,eXXei;
Aia ravra
8rj
HE. tols vop.ovs Kal
Trepl otovovv
vyypdp,p.ara ridep,evois Sevrepos ttXovs to Trapa
C

ravra p,rjre eva p,rjre TrXrjdos p.rj8ev p.rj8eTrore eav


8pdv p,rjS' otlovv.
NE. 2n. 'Opdcos.
HE. OvKovv p.ip.f]p.ara p.ev dv eKaorcov raura eirj
rrjs dXrjdelas, rd Trapd to>v elSorcov els Svvap.iv elvai
yeypap.p.eva;
ov;
S'

NE. 2n. Ylcos


HE. Kal p,rjv tov ye elSora tov ovtcos
ecf>ap,ev,
ttoXltlKov, Troirjoeiv rrj rexvjj TroXXd
el

p,ep.vf]p,eda,
els rrjv avrov Trpdiv tcov ypap,p.arcov ovSev cf>povri-
Qovra, oTrorav aAA avrco peArico oofrj Trapa to
D yeypap.p.eva vcf>' avrov Kal eTreoraXp.eva dTrovol
riow.
NE. 2n. yap.
"Ecf>ap.ev
HE. OvKovv dvrjp ootloovv els TrXrjdos otlovv,
rj

ols dv vop.oi Keip,evoi rvyxavcooi, Trapa raCra tl dv


d

eTrixeiprjocooi Troielv cos ficXtlov erepov ov, ravrov


/card Svvafiiv oTrep dXrjdivos eKelvos
6

S/300c71
NE. 2n. Yldvv p.kv ovv.
TAp' ovv p.ev dv eTr lotr] p,oves ovres to tolov-
el

HE.
"
See 295e!
1

154
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. Most assuredly.
str. Since the laws are made after long experience
and after commissioners of some kind have carefully
considered each detail with delicate skill and have
persuaded the people to pass them, anyone, I fancy,
who ventured to violate them would be involved in
error many times greater than the first, and would
cause even greater ruin than the written laws to
all kinds of transactions.
y. soc. Of course he would.
str. Therefore the next best course for those who
make laws or written rules about anything whatsoever
is to prohibit any violation of them whatsoever,
either by one person or by a greater number.
Y. soc. Right.
str. These laws, then, written by men who know
in so far as knowledge is possible, are imitations in
each instance of some part of truth ?
y. soc. Of course.
str. And yet wc said, if wc remember, that the
man of knowledge, the real statesman, would by his
art make many changes in his practice without
regard to his writings, when he thought another
course was better though it violated the rules he
had written and sent to his absent subjects.1
y. soc. Yes, we did say that.
str. But is it not true that any man or any
number of men whatsoever who have written laws,
if they undertake to make any change in those laws,
thinking it is an improvement, are doing, to the best
of their ability, the same thing which our true
statesman does ?
y. soc. Certainly.
str. If, then, they were to do this without science,
155
PLATO
tov to dXrjdes,
8pcoev, /Lu/iela#ai fiev av eTri^eipoSev
E /ii/ioivt' av p.evroi ttov KaKcos1' ei S' hnexvoi,
tovto oiiK cotw eri p.lp.rjjia, dXX' avro to dXrjde-
otoltov eKeivo;
ne. 2n. IlavruJs, Tr0U.
HE. Kai /iijv ye cbp.oXoyqp,evov rjp.lv
efJ.Trpoodev
Kelrai p.rj8ev TrXrjdos /LiijS' tjvtlvovv Svvcltov elvai
Xafielv rexvqv.
NE. 2n. Keirai yap ow.
HE. OvKovv el fiev eori /JaoiAi/oj tis rexyq, to
taiv ttXovoIcov TrXrjdos Kal 6 vp.Tras 8rjp.os ovK av
Trors Xdfioi rrjv TroXltlKrjv tovTqv eTrioTqp.rjv .

ne. 2n. Ilco? yap av;


8rj

HE. Aei ras roiavras ye, cbs eoiKe, TroXirelas,


p.eXXovoi KaXcos tYjv dXrjdivqv eKelvTjv rrjv tov
el

301 evos p,era rexvqs dpxovros 'noXirelav els Svvap.iv


p.ipvqoeodai, p.rjoeTrore Keip,evcov avrols rcov vopnov
p.-q8ev Troielv Trapd to yeypap.p.eva Kal Trarpia edrj.
NE. 2n. KaAAictr' elprjKas.
"Orav dpa ol TrXovoioi rav'rqv p.ip.covrai, rore
HE.
apioroKparlav KaXovp,ev rqv roiavrrjv TroXirelav
oTrorav Se tcov vop.cov p,rj cf>povrl^cooiv oXiyapxlav.
,

NE. 2n. Kiv8vvevei.


EE. Kai p.rjv oTrorav avdis els dpxrj Kato. vop.ovs,
p.ip.ovp,evos tov emctrrjp.ova, /JaoiAea KaXovp,ev, oi
B

Siopll^ovres 6v6p.ari tov p.er' emorrjp.rjs oorjs


vj

Kara vop.ovs p.ovapxovvra.


ne. 2n. liv8vvevop,ev .
HE. OvKovv Kav tis dpa eTriorrjp.cov ovtcos cov
els dpxjj, Trdvrcos to ye dvop.a tovtov ftaoiXevs Kal
ovoev erepov TrpooprjUrjoeraf oi a orj ra Trevre
'
irav KaKws] lYavKaK&s kcikajj Burnet.
T

Trav
B

TravK&Kuls
1

:
:

156
THE STATESMAN

they would be trying to imitate reality, they would,


however, imitate badly in every case ; but if they
were scientific, then it would no longer be imitation,
but the actual perfect reality of which we spoke ?
y. soc. Yes, assuredly.
str. And yet we agreed definitely a while ago
that no multitude is able to acquire any art
whatsoever.
y. soc. Yes, that is definitely agreed.
str. Then if there is a kingly 1 art, neither the
collective body of the wealthy nor the whole people
could ever acquire this science of statesmanship.
y. soc. No ; certainly not.
str. Such states, then, it seems, if they are to
imitate well, so far as possible, that true form of
government by a single ruler who rules with science
must never do anything in contravention of their
existing written laws and ancestral customs.
y. soc. You are quite right.
str. Then whenever the rich imitate this govern
ment, we call such a state an aristocracy ; and when
they disregard the laws, we call it an oligarchy.
y. soc. Yes, I think we do.
str. And again, when one man rules according to
laws and imitates the scientific ruler, we call him a
king, making no distinction in name between the
single ruler who rules by science and him who rules
by opinion if they both rule in accordance with laws.
y. soc. Yes, I thinkwe do.
str. Accordingly, if one man who is really scientific
rules, he will assuredly be called by the same name,
king, and by no other ; and so the five names of what
1
See 292 e.

6i S] dia BT.
PLATO

6v6p.ara rd>v vvv Xeyop.evcov TroXireicov ev p.ovov


yeyovev.
ne. sn. "Eoi/ce yovv.
io,
orav prjre Ka.ra vop.ovs jirjre Kara eorj
Trpdrrrj tls els dpxcov, TrpooTroirjrai 8e o>oTrep o em-
C orrjp.cov cos dpa Trapd rd yeypap.p.eva to ye /JeAn-
otov Troirjreov, rj 8e ris eTndvjila Kal dyvoia tovtov
rov iLip.rjp.aros r)yovp,evrj , llcov ov tots t6v roiovrov
eKaorov rvpavvov KXrjreov ;
ne. 2n. Ti p.rjv;
re yiyove,
Srj
40. HE. Ovrco rvpavvos cf>ap.ev,
/cai fiaoiXevs Kal 6Xiyapxla /cai dpioroKparla /cai
Srjp.oKparla, Svoxepavdvrcov rcov dvdpcoTrcov rov
eva eKelvov p.ovapxov Kal amorrjoavrcov p.rjoeva
,

rrjs roiavrrjs dpxrjs diov av yeveodai Trore, coore


edeXeiv Kal 8vvarov elvai p.era dperrjs Kal 6TriaTlj/xij?
D

dpxovra rd SiVaia /cai ooia Siavep.eiv 6pdd>s Tracn,


Xcofiaodai Se /cai aTroKrivvvvai Kal /ca/cow ov dv
fiovXiijdfj eKaorore rjp.cov eTrel yev6p.evov dv olov
y
Xeyop,ev dyaTraodal re dv /cai oiKelv oiaKvfiepvcovra
evoaip.6vcos opdrjv aKpificos p.ovov TroXirelav
.

NE. 2il. Iloi? ov;


S'

HE. Nvv 8e ye oTrore ovK eori yiyvop,evos, d>s


8rj

cf>ap.ev, ev rals TroXeoi fiaoiXevs olos ev op.rjveoiv


ep.cf>verai, to re evdvs Kal rrjv lfivxrp/
E

oxu/ia
8rj

8iacf>epcov els, Sei ovveXdovras vyypdp.p.ara


ypdcf>eiv, cos e'oi/ce, p.eradeovras rd rrjs dXrjdeordrrjs
TroXirelas 'ixvrj,
What are called five distinct forms of government are
1

resolved into one the one right form of which all others are
imitations This is to be sought in some small
c).

(297
number or one person (ibid.). We have found in the
it

really scientific monarchy, and the other so-called forms of


158
THE STATESMAN
are now called the forms of government have become
only one.1
y. soc. So it seems, at least.
str. But when a single ruler acts in accordance
with neither laws nor customs, but claims, in
imitation of the scientific ruler, that whatever is best
must be done, even though it be contrary to the
written laws, and this imitation is inspired by desire
and ignorance, is not such a ruler to be called in
every instance a tyrant ?
Y. soc. Certainly.
str. Thus, we say, the tyrant has arisen, and the
king and oligarchy and aristocracy and democracy,
because men are not contented with that one perfect
ruler, and do not believe that there could ever be
any one worthy of such power or willing and able by
ruling with virtue and knowledge to dispense justice
and equity rightly to all, but that he will harm and
kill and injure any one of us whom he chooses on any
occasion, since they admit that if such a man as we
describe should really arise, he would be welcomed
and would continue to dwell among them, directing
to their weal as sole ruler a perfectly right form of
government.
Y. soc. Certainly.
str. But, as the case now stands, since, as we
claim, no king is produced in our states who is,
like the ruler of the bees in their hives, by birth
pre-eminently fitted from the beginning in body and
mind, we are obliged, as it seems, to follow in the
track of the perfect and true form of government by
coining together and making written laws.
government, being merely imitations of this, require no
names of their own.
159
PLATO

NE. 2n. Kiv8vvevei.
HE. Qavp.d^op.ev o~rjra, <5 Hd>Kpares, ev rai? toi-
aurai? TroAirei'ai? ooa vp.fialvei ylyveodai /ca/cd /eai
ooa gvjifirjoerai, roiavrrjs rfjs KprjmSos vTroKeip.e-
vrjs avrais, rrjs Kara ypdjxp.ara Kal edrj p.rj /xerd
Trparrovorjs rds Trpdeis, irepa

fj1
eTriorrjp.rjs
302 Trpooxpcop,evrj Travrl KardSrjXos cos Trdvr' dv Si-
oXeoeie ra ravrrj yiyv6p.tva; iKelvo rjp.lv davp.a-

rj
oreov p.aXXov, cos la^ypov ri ttoXls eorl cf>voei;
Trdoxovoai yap S1j
roiavra ai TroXeis vvv xj>ovov
dTrepavrov evial rives avrcov p.ovip.oi re eloi
op.cos
,

Kal ovK dvarpeTrovrai, TroXXal pjqv evlore Kal Kad-


dTrep TrXola Karaov6p.evai SioXXvvrai Kal oioXcoXaoi
Kal eri SioXovvrai Sid rrjv rcov Kvfiepvqrd>v Kal
vavrcov p.oxdrjplav rcov Trepl ra p.eyiora p.eylorrjv
dyvoiav elXrjcf>6rcov, rd TroXiriKa /car'
B

01 Trepl
ovSev yiyvcooKovres rjyovvrai Kara Trdvra oacf>e-
orara Traod>v eTriorrjp.cov ravrrjv elXrj^evai.
NE. 2n. AXrjdeorara.
''

41. HE. Ti? ovv rd>v ovK dpdcov TroXireidjv


ST)

rovrcov rjKiora xaXeTrrj ov^rjv, Traocov xaXeTru>v


ovod>v, Kal rls fiapvrdrrj, Sei n KariSelv rjp.ds,
KalTrep Trpos ye r6 vvv Trporedev rjp.lv Trdpepyov
Xey6p.evov ov p.rjv dXX' els ye r6 oXov ioco? dTravd'
;

eveKa rov roiovrov Trdvres 8pd>p.ev xdpiv.


ne. 2n. Aci, Tre0? ov;
S'

HE. Trjv avrrjv rolvvv cf>ddi rpid>v ovod>v xaXe-


C

Trrjv Siacf>e povr cos ylyveodai /cai pdorrjv?


ne. 2n. Yld>s
HE. OvK dXXcos, TrXrjv jiovapxlav cf>rjp.l Kal oXlycov
add. Stephanus Ficino.
1

e
r)

5ia0e/>cWws dfia Kal pq.0Tqv ylyveadai T.


2

160
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. Yes, I suppose we are.
str. Can we wonder, then, Socrates, at all the
evils that arise and are destined to arise in such
kinds of government, when they are based upon
such a foundation, and must conduct their alfairs in
accordance with written laws and with customs,
without knowledge ? For every one can see that any
other art built upon such a foundation would ruin all
its works that are so produced. Ought we not rather
to wonder at the stability that inheres in the state?
For states have laboured under such conditions for
countless ages, nevertheless some of them are
lasting and are not overthrown. Many, to be sure,
like ships that founder at sea, are destroyed, have
been destroyed, and will be destroyed hereafter,
through the worthlessness of their captains and
crews who have the greatest ignorance of the greatest
things, men who have no knowledge of statesman
ship, but think they have in eveiy respect most
perfect knowledge of this above all other sciences.
Y. soc. Very true.
stk. Is it, then, our duty to see which of these
not right forms of government is the least dillicult to
live with, though all are dillicult, and which is the
most oppressive, although this is somewhat aside from
the subject we had proposed for ourselves ? On the
whole, however, perhaps all of us have some such
motive in mind in all that we are doing.
y. soc. Yes, it is our duty, of course.
str. Well then, you may say that of the three
forms, the same is both the hardest and the easiest.
y. soc. W hat do you mean ?
str. Just this : I mean that there are three forms
of government, as we said at the beginning of the
vol. m M l6l
PLATO

dpxrjv Kal ttoXXuov, elvai rpels ravras rjplv Xeyop,e-


vas tov vvv eTriKexyp.evov Xoyov /car' apxds.
NE. 3n. THaav yap oSv.
HE. Tavras tolvvv Si^a rejivovres p.lav eKaorrjv
Troicop.ev, rrjv 6pdrjv xcopls dTroKplvavres tovtcov
efiS6p.rjv.
ne. 2n. Ilco?;
D HE. 'E/c jaev trj? p.ovapxlas fiaoiXiKrjv Kal rvpav-
viKrjv, eK S' aS tuov p,rj ttoXXcov rrjv re evcovvp.ov
ecf>ap.ev elvai dpiaroKpariav Kal oXiyapxlav e/c S'
aS tcov ttoXXcov rore p.ev dTrXrjv eTrovop.d^ovres
eridep.ev orjp.oKpariav, vvv Se av Kal ravrrjv r)p.lv
dereov eorl 8nrXrjv.
ne. 2n. Iloi? 8rj; Kal tlvl Siaipovvres ravnjv ;
HE. OuSev Siacf>epovri tcov dXXuov, ouS' el tov-
vop.a rj?>rj SlttXovv eori ravrrjs' dXXd to ye /card
E vop.ovs dpxeiv Kal Trapavop.cos eori Kal ravrrj Kal
rca? dAAai?.
NE. 2n. "Ectti yap ovv.
HE. Tore p.ev tolvvv ttjv 6pdrjv ^rjtovol tovto to
rjv

T/itJ/i.a ovK xprjoifiov uos ev tols Trpoodev aTreoel-


,

S'

ap,ev eTreiSrj Se ielXop.ev eKelvrjv, tols aAAa?


ravrais to Trapdvop.ov Kal
Srj

edep,ev dvayKalas, ev
evvopov eKaorrjv Si^oro/iei tovtuov.
NE. 2n. Eoi/ce tovtov vvv prjdevros tov Xoyov.
'

HE.Movapxia tolvvv ^evxdeloa p.ev ev ypdp.p.aoiv


dyadois, ovs vop.ovs Xeyop.ev, dplortj Traod>v tcov e'
dvouos Se xaXeTrrj Kal fiapvrarrj vvoiKrjoai.

The name said to be twofold in meaning, probably


is
1

because was applied in eases in which there was a


it

regularly constituted popular government and also in cases


of mob rule.
162
THE STATESMAN
discussion which has now flowed in upon us
monarchy, the rule of the few, and the rule of the
many.
y. soc. Yes, there were those three.
str. Let us, then, by dividing each of these into
two parts, make six, and by distinguishing the right
government from these, a seventh.
y. soc. How shall we make the division ?
str. We said that monarchy comprised royalty
and tyranny, and the rule of the few comprised
aristocracy, which has a name of good omen, and
oligarchy ; but to the rule of the many we gave then
only a single name, democracy ; now, however, that
also must be divided.
y. soc. How ? On what principle shall we divide
that ?
str. On the same that we used for the others,
though the name of this form is already twofold in
meaning.1 At any rate, the distinction between
ruling according to law and without law applies alike
to this and the rest.
y. soc. Yes, it does.
str. Before, when we were in search of the right
government, this division was of no use, as we showed
at the time ; but now that we have set that apart
and have decided that the others are the only
available forms of government, the principle of
lawfulness and lawlessness bisects each of them.
Y. soc. So it seems, from what has been said.
str. Monarchy, then, when bound by good written
rules, which we call laws, is the best of all the six ;
but without law it is hard and most oppressive to
live with.

163
PLATO
D3 ne. sn. Kiv8vvevei .

HE. Trjv Se ye tcov p.rj ttoXXcov, cooTrep evos Kal


TrXrjdovs to oXlyov p,eoov, ovtcos rjyrjod>p.eda p.eorjv
iTr' dp.cf>orepa, ttjv 5' av tov TrXrj6ovs Kara Travra
aodevrj Kal p.rj8ev p.rjre dyadov p.rjre KolKov p,eya
8vvap.evrjv cLs Trpos ra? dXXas Sia to ras dpxds ev
tovttj Siavevep.rjodai Kara op.iKpd els TroXXovs.
Sio yeyove Traocov p.ev vop.lp.cov tcov TroXireicov
ovocov tovtcov xeiplorrj, Trapav6p.cov S' ovocov
B vp,Traocov /JeAri'on; Kal aKoXdoro>v p.ev Traocov
.

ovocov ev Srjp.oKparlq viKq1 ^rjv, Koop.lcov S' ovod>v


rjKiora ev ravrrj fiicoreov, ev rfj Trpcorrj 8e ttoXv
Trpcorov re Kal dpiorov, ttXtjv tTJ? efiS6p.rjs' Traocov
yap eKelvrjv ye eKKpireov , olov deov e dvdpcoTrcov,
eK tcov dXXiov TroXireicov.
NE. sn. OaiWrai tovd' ovtco ylyveodal re Kal
vp.palveiv, Kal Troirjreov fjTrep Ae'yei?.
8rj

HE. OvKovv Kal tovs Kolvcovovs tovtcov tcov


TroXireicov Traocov ttXrjv trjs emorrjp.ovos dcf>aipereov
cos ovK ovras ttoXltlKovs dXXd oraoiaoriKovs
C

,
Kal elScoXiov p.eylorcov Trpooraras ovras Kal avrovs
elvai tolovtovs, p.eylorovs Se ovras p.ip.rjras Kal
yorjras p.eylorovs ylyveodai tcov oo^iorcov oocf>i-
oras.
vIK&v T.
B
1

vIKf] vIKO.r)
:

The concentration of power in the hands of one man


1

makes monarchy most efficient, but, since no human


monarch perfect, monarchy must be regulated by laws.
is

Its efficiency makes under such conditions the best


it

government to live under. But without restraint of law



monarchy becomes tyranny the worst kind of oppression.
Oligarchy occupies a position intermediate between
164
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. I fancy it is.
sth. But just as few is intermediate between one
and a multitude, so the government of the few must
be considered intermediate, both in good and in
evil. But the government of the multitude is weak
in all respects and able to do nothing great, either
good or bad, when compared with the other forms
of government, because in this the powers of govern
ment are distributed in small shares among many
men ; therefore of all these governments when they
are lawful, this is the worst, and when they are
all lawless it is the best ; and if they are all without
restraint, life is most desirable in a democracy, but
if they are orderly, that is the worst to live in ; but
life in the first kind of state is by far the first and
best, with the exception of the seventh, for that
must be set apart from all the others, as God is set
apart from men.1
y. soc. That statement appears to be true to the
facts, and we must do as you say.
stk. Then those who participate in all those
governments with the exception of the scientific
one are to be eliminated as not being statesmen,
but partisans ; and since they preside over the
greatest counterfeits, they are themselves counter
feits, and since they are the greatest of imitators
and cheats, they are the greatest of all sophists.

monarchy and democracy less efficient than the one and


more efficient than the other, because power is distributed
among a small number of persons and is, therefore, when
lawful less good, and when lawless less bad, than monarchy.
Democracy, in turn, since power is too greatly subdivided,
is inefficient, either for good or evil, and is, therefore, when
lawful less good, and when lawless less bad, than either of
the others.
165
PLATO

NE. 2n. tovto els tovs ttoXitiKovs


KivSweuei
Xeyop.ivovs Trepieorpd^dai1 to prjp.a 6pdorara.
HE. Kiev tovto p.ev dre^rai? rjpXv djoTrep 8pap.a,
Ka.8aTrep epprjB'q vvv Srj ^.evTcivpiKov opaoOoii /cac
riva

8rj
TiarvpiKov dlaoov, Sv xcopioreov dTro
D

S'
TroXiriKrjs eirj rexvrjs' vvv ovtco Trdvv p.oyis
excopiodrj .

ne. sn. Qaiveroi.


HE. Tovtov Se erepov eri xaXeTrcorepov Aei-

y'
Trerai to> vyyeves eivai p.aXXov to> /Ja-

r'
0'
op.ov
aiAi/cai yevei /cai 8vaKarap.adrjrorepov /cai /ioi
cf>aivop.eda tols t6v xpvoov Kadalpovoi Trddos
ofjioiov TreTrovdevai.
ne. 2n. YIcos;
HE. Trjv Trov Kal XId0vs Kal TroXX' U.rra erepo.
clTroKplvovoi KoiKeivoi Trpcorov^ oi 8rjp.lovpyol

'
/iera Se raCra AeiVerai vp.p.ep.iyp.eva ra vyyevrj
E

tov xpvoov rip.ia Kal Trvpl p.6vov dcf>aipera, ^aA/co?


Kal dpyvpos, eori ore Kal dSdp.as, a3 p,era /Jaoa-
S'

vcov rai? eifirjoeoi /idyi? tov Xeyop,evov


dcf>aipedevra
aKrjparov xpvoov elaoev rjjias loelv avrov p.6vov
ecp eavrov.
ravra ovto> yi-
8rj

NE. 2n. Ae'yerai yap ovv


yveodai.
42. HE. Kara. tov avrov tolvvv Xoyov koiKe
Kal vvv rjpuv ta p.ev eVepa Kal orrooa dXXorpia /cai
ra. p.,q cf>lXa TroXiriKrjs imorrjp.rjs oVo/ce^copio^ai,
XelTreodai Se to n'/ua /cai vyyevrj. tovtcov
S'

ecm'
304 Tr0U orparrjyla /cai Si/cao-ri/c^ /cai 0c7Tj fiaoiXiKfj
Koivcovovoa prjropela Treldovoa to Si'/caiov vv-
BT.
1

Trepiearpiipdai
trpb-epw B. add. Stephanus Ficino.
3
2

e
S

166
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. This term " sophist "
seems to have come
round quite rightly to the so-called statesmen.
str. Well, this part has been exactly like a play.
Just as we remarked a moment ago,1 a festive troop
of centaurs or satyrs was coming into view, which
we had to separate from the art of statesmanship ;
and now we have succeeded in doing this, though
it has been very dillicult.
y. soc. So it seems.
st. But another group remains, which is still
more dillicult to separate, because it is more closely
akin to the kingly class and is also harder to recognize.
I think we are in somewhat the same position as
refiners of gold.
y. soc. How so ?
str. Why, the reliners first remove earth and
stones and all that sort of thing ; and after that
there remain the precious substances which are
mixed with the gold and akin to it and can be
removed only by fire copper and silver and some
times adamant.'2 These are removed by the dillicult
processes of smelting and tests, leaving before our
eyes what is called unalloyed gold in all its purity.
y. soc. Yes, that is said, at least, to be the process.
str. By the same method I think all that is
different and alien and incompatible has now been
eliminated by us from the science of statesmanship,
and what is precious and akin to it is left. Herein
are included the arts of the general and of the
judge and that kind of oratory which partakes of the
kingly art because it persuades men to justice and
1
5>91a.
2
Plato, Timaeus 59 B, defines adamant as xpvaov iifos, "a
branch of gold." It was, then, a substance akin to gold.
Platinum has been suggested.
167
rlvi

Srj
SiaKvfiepva ra? ev rals TroXeoi Trpdeis' a
rporrco paord tis yvp.vov Kai
aTrop.epl^cov Sei'ei
p.6vov eKeivov Kad' avrov tov ^rjrovp,evov vcf>' rjp.cov;
NE. 2n. ArjXov 0n rovro TrTTj 8p&v Treipclreov.
HE. Tlcipns jiev Tolvvv eW/ca cf>avep6s eorai" Sid
8e p.ovoiKrjs avrov iyxeiprjreov StjAoiCTat. KM p.oi
Ae'ye .

ne. 2n. To ttoiov;


HE. MoUCTKOj? cctri TroU rl? Ij/lIv p.ddrjols, KtU
B

oXo>s tcov Trepl xeiporexvlas eTriarqp.u>v

;
NE. 2n. "Eariv.
HE. oe too ai> touto>v Tpnivovv eire oei
1

;
1

p.avddveiv rjp.as eire p.rj, Tr6repa cf>rjoop,ev eTnorqp.Tp/


av Kai ravrrjv elval tiva Trepl avra ravra, ttcos;

rj
ne. 2n. Ovtcos, elval cf>rjoop.ev.
HE. Ol5/cow erepav 6p.oX0y1qoop,ev eKelvcov elvai
ravrrjv;
NE. 2n. Nai.
aurcos ovSep.lav dpxeiv Seiv dXXrjv
S'

HE. Ylorepa
dAAij?, eVeiW? ravrqs, ravrrjv 8elv emrpo-
C

rj
r)

Trevovoav dpxeiv vp.Traocov rcov dXXcov;


NE. 2n. Tavrrjv eKelvov.
el

HE. Trjv2 Sei p.avddveiv p,rj T,rj? p.avdavop.evrjs


r)

Kai Si8aoKovorjs dpa ov Seiv rjp.lv


y

dTrocf>alvei
dpxeiv;
NE. 2n. Hcf>68pa ye.
Kai rrjv
el

HE. Sei Treldeiv dpa p.rj rrjs 8vva-


r}

p,evrjs Treldeiv;
ov;
8'

NE. 2n. Ylcos

t65' aSAst: rd BT.


1

Se a5
S'

5e

tt)v om. BT (and give to young Socrates)


2

m>;
.
.
.

corr. Stallbaum.
168
THE STATESMAN
thereby helps to steer the ship of state. Now in
what way shall we most easily eliminate these and
show him whom we seek alone by himself and
undisguised ?
y. soc. Clearly we must do this somehow.
str. Then if it is a question of trying, he will be
shown. But I think we had better try to disclose
him by means of music. Please answer my question.
y. soc. What is it ?
str. Shall we agree that there is such a thing as
learning music and the sciences of handicraft in
general ?
y. soc. There is.
str. And how about this ? Shall we say that
there is another science connected with those, which
tells whether we ought or ought not to learn any
one of them ?
y. soc. Yes, we shall say that there is.
str. And shall we agree that this is different
from those ?
Y. soc. Yes.
str. And shall we say that none of them ought
to have control of any other, or that those sciences
should control this one, or that this should control
and rule all the others ?
y. soc. This should control those others.
str. You mean that the science which decides
whether we ought to learn or not should control the
science which is learnt or teaches ?
y. soc. Emphatically.
str. And the science which decides whether to
persuade or not should control that which can
persuade ?
y. soc. Certainly.

169
PLATO

HE. Eiey riVi to TreioriKov ovv clTroScooop.ev


emorrip.ri TrXrjdovs re /cai oxXov Sid p.vdoXoylas
D dAAd Sid SiSa^?;
ne. sn. (fravepov, olp.ai, /cai tovto prjropiKrj
Soreov ov.
HE. To S' ei're Sid Treidovs eiVe /cai Sid rivo?
/Ji'a? Sei Trparreiv Trpos rivas otiovv r) /cai to Trapd-
Trav rjovxlav1 e'^eiv, tout' av Trolq Trpoodrjoopiev im-

NE. 2n. Tfj rrjs TreioriKrjs apxovorj /cai Ae/cn/cij?.


HE. E11j Se dv oi)/c aAAij ti?, co? olp.ai, TrXrjv rj
rov TroXltlKov Svvapus .

NE. 2n. KdAAior' elprjKas.


HE. Kai tovto p.ev eoi/ce ra^ci Kexcoplodai TtoXl-
E riKrjs to prjropiKov, co? erepov eiSo? ov, vTrrjperoiiv
p.rjv ravTQ.
ne. sn. Nai.
43' HE. Ti Se Tre/3i rij? roidoS' au 8vvdp.ecos
Siavorjreov ;
NE. 2n. Iloia?;
HE. TrJ? co? TroXeprqreov e'/cdoroi? of? av TrpoeXco-
p.eda TroXep.elv, eiVe airr/jv are^vov eiVe evrexvov
epovp,ev;
NE. 2n. Kai Trco? av arexvov Siavorjdeip,ev, rjv
ye rj orparrjyiKrj /cai Trdoa r) TroXepaKrj Trpdi?
rrparrei;
HE. Tr)v S' eire TroXep.rjreov eiVe Sid ^iAia? aTraA-
XoiKreov olav r6 /cai emorrjp.ova SiafiovXevoaodai,
ravrrjs erepav vTroXdfia>p,ev r) rrjv avrrjv ravrrj;
NE. 2n. Toi? Trpoodev dvayKalov eTrop.evoioiv
erepav .
riavxiav add. Hermann.
1

170
THE STATESMAN
str. Well, then, to what science shall we assign
the power of persuading a multitude or a mob by
telling edifying stories, not bv teaching ?
y. soc. It is, I think, clear that this must be
added to rhetoric.
str. But the power of deciding whether some
action, no matter what, should be taken, cither by
persuasion or by some exercise of force, in relation
to any person, or whether to take no action at all
to what science is that to be assigned?
y. soc. To the science which controls the sciences
of persuasion and speech.
str. And that would, I think, be no other than
the function of the statesman.
y. soc. A most excellent conclusion.
str. So rhetoric also seems to have been quickly
separated from statesmanship 1
as a dilferent species,
subservient to the other.
y. soc. Yes.
str. Here is another function or power ; what
are we to think about it ?
y. soc. What is it ?
str. The power of determining how war shall be
waged against those upon whom we have declared war,
whether we are to call this a science or not a science ?
y. soc. How could we think it is not a science,
when generalship and all military activity practise it ?
str. And the power which is able and knows
how to deliberate and decide whether to make war
or peace, shall we assume that it is the same as this
or dilferent ?
y. soc.If we are consistent, we must assume that
it is dilferent.
Gf. 303 c.
1

171
PLATO

305 HE. OvKovv dpxovoav tovttjs avrrjv aTrocf>avov-


p.eda, elTrep rols epnrpoodev ye vTroXrjifiop.eda Sp.olcos;
NE. 2n. Orj/x1'.
HE. Tiv' ovv Ttote Kal eTriXelprjoop.ev ovtuj Seivfjs
Kal p.eydXrjs rexvrjs vp.Trdorjs rrjs TroXep.iKfjs SeoTro-
tiv aTrocf>aiveodai TrXrjv ye

Srj
ttjv ovtcos ovoav
jiaoiXiKrjv
;

NE. 2n. OvSep.lav dXXrjv.


HE. OvK dpa TroXlrUCqv ye drjoop,ev, vTrrjperiKrjv
ovoav, rrjv tcov orparrjycov eTriorrjp.Tjv .
NE. 2n. Oi5/c eiVd?.
Sij, Kal tT)v tcov SiKoloto>v to~>v 6pdd>s
B

HE.
SiKo^ovtcov deaocop.eda Svvap.iv.
NE. 2n. Hdvv p.ev ovv.
HE. TAp' ovv em TrXeov tl Svvarai tov Trepl to
vp.fi6Xaia, Trdvd' oTrdoa weirai vop.ip.a Trapd vop.0-
derov fiaoiXecos TrapaXafiovoa, Kplveiv els eKelva
aKoTrovoa Ta re StVaia raxdevra elvai Kal dSi/ca,
trjv avrr)s ISlav dperrjv Trapexop.evq tov p,rjd' vtto
tlvcov 8copcov p.rjd' vtto cfioficov p.rjre oXKtcov p.rjd'
vtto tivos dXXrjs exdpas /iijSe cf>iXlas rjrrrjdeloa
C

Trapa ttjv tov vop.oderov raiv edeXeiv dv rd dXXrjXcov


ey/cA^/iara Siaipelv;
NE. 2n. Ou/c, dAAd oxeSov ooov elprjKas tovttjs
eorl tt)s 8vvdp.ecos epyov.
HE. Kai rrjv tcov SiKaorcov dpa pd>p.rjv dvevploKo-
p.ev ov fiaoiXiKrjv ovoav dAAd vop.cov cf>vXaKa Kal
vTrrjpcriv iKeivrjs.
NE. 2n. "Eoi/ce' ye.
Srj

HE. To'Se Karavorjreov IBovti ovvaTrdoas ras


eTriorrjp.as at elprjvrai, oti TtoAiti/cij ye avrcov
ov8ep.la dvecf>dvrj. ttjv yap ovtcos ovoav fiaoiXiKrjv
178
THE STATESMAN
str. Shall we, then, assume that it controls the
other, if we are to agree with our views in the
former examples ?
y. soc. Yes.
str. And what other art shall we make hold to
declare is mistress of that great and terrible art, the
art of war as a whole, except the truly kingly art ?
y. soc. No other.
str. We shall, then, not call the art of the
generals statesmanship, since it is subservient.
y. soc. No; that would not be reasonable.
str. Now let us examine the function of the
righteous judges.
y. soc. Certainly.
str. Has it any power beyond that of judging
men's contracts with one another, pronouncing them
right or wrong by the standard of the existing laws
which it has received from the king and law-giver,
showing its own peculiar virtue in that it is not
so perverted by any bribes, or fears, or pity, or
enmity, or friendship, as ever to consent to decide
the lawsuits of men with each other contrary to the
enactments of the law-giver?
y. soc. No ; the business of this power is about
as you have described it.
str. Then we find that the strength of judges is
not kingly, but is guardian of laws and a servant of
the kingly power.
Y. soc. So it appears.
str. The consideration of all these arts which
have been mentioned leads to the conclusion that
none of them is the art of the statesman. For the

173
PLATO

I) ovK avrrjv SeiTrpdrreiv, dXX' apxeuv rcov 8vva-


p,evcov Trpdrreiv , yiyvcooKovoav rrjv dpxrjv re /cai
6pp,rjv tcov p,eylorcov ev rai? TroXeoiv ey/caipia? re
Trepi /cai aKaiplas, rd? S' aAAa? rd Trpooraxdivra
8pdv.
NE. 2n. 'Opdcos.
HE. Aid ravra dpa as dpri 8ieXrjXvdap,ev
p,ev
ovre dXXrjXcov ovd' avrcov dpxovoai, Trepl Se riva
iSi'av avrrjs ovoa eKaorrj ,npdiv Kara rrjv iSiorijra
tcov Trpdecov rovvop.cl Si/cai'co? eiXrjcf>ev lSiov.
E NE. 2n. Eiaoi yovv.
HE. Trjv Se Traocovre rouruw dpxovctav /cai roiv
vop.cov /cai vuTrdvrcov rujl' Kara ttoXlv eTrip,eXovp,e-
vrjv /cai Travra vvvcf>alvovoav 6pdorara, tov Kolvov
rfj /cA^aei TrepiXafiovres rrjv Svvapuv avrrjs, Trpoo-
ayopevoip.ev Si/caiora?,' dv, co? eoi/ce, rroAln/Ojv.
NE. 2n. IlavraTraai /^lev ow.
-E, Oi/cow
8rj

44, /cai /card r6 trj? vcf>avri-


Krjs TrapdSeiyp.a fiovXolp.ed' dv eTreeXdelv avrrjv
vvv, ore /cai Travra rd yevrj rd /card ttoXiv 8rjXa
rjp.lv yeyovev;
NE. 2n. Kai ocf>68pa ye.
Tijv
S1j

HE. ftaoiXiKrjv
avpurXoKrjv, d>s eoi/ce,
JOG Ae/creW, Troi'a t
eori /cai riVi rp6Trcp ovp.TrXeKovoa
Trolov rjp.lv vcf>aop.a dTroSlScooiv .
NE. 2n. ATJAov.
HE. 'H ^aAer?w eVSei'ao#ai Trpayp.a dvayKalov
dpa yeyovev, d>s cf>alverai.
NE. sn. Ildvrco? ye p,rjv prjreov.
HE. To yap dperrjs p.epos dperrjs ei'Sei Sidcf>opov

See 287-290, 303-:j(>.i.


1

174
THE STATESMAN
art that is truly kingly ought not to act itself, but
should rule over the arts that have the power of
action ; it should decide upon the right or wrong
time for the initiation of the most important measures
in the state, and the other arts should perform its
behests.
y. soc. Right.
stii. Therefore those arts which we have just
described, as they control neither one another nor
themselves, but have each its own peculiar sphere
of action, are quite properly called by special names
corresponding to those special actions.
Y. soc. That appears, at least, to be the ease.
sth. But the art which holds sway over them all
and watches over the laws and all things in the
state, weaving them all most perfectly together, we
may, 1 think, by giving to its function a designation
which indicates its power over the community, with
full propriety call "statecraft."
y. soc. Most assuredly.
str. Shall we then proceed to discuss it after the
model supplied by weaving,1 now that all the classes
in the state have been made plain to us ?
Y., soc. By all means.
str. Then the kingly process of weaving must be
described, its nature, the manner in which it com
bines the threads, and the kind of web it produces.
y. soc. Evidently.
str. It has, apparently, become necessary, after
all, to explain a difficult matter.
Y. soc. But certainly the explanation must be
made.
str. It is difficult, for the assertion that one part
of virtue is in a way at variance with another sort
175
PLATO
eivai riva rpoTrov rols Trepl Xoyovs dpuf>iofirjriKols
/cai p.dX' eveTrlderov Trpos ra? rcov ttoXXcov Soa?.
NE. 2n. OvK ejladov.
he. 'AAA' coSe TraAiv. avSpeiav yap olp.aI oe
B rjyelodai p.epos IV dperrjs rjp.lv elvcu.
ne. 2Xn. IldVu ye.
HE. Kai p.rjv ococf>poovvrjv ye dv8pelas p.ev erepov,
ev S' ovv Kal tovto p.6piov r\s KdKelvo.
ne. 2n. Nai'.
8ij

HE. Tourcov Trepi davp.aorov nva Aoyov dTro-


cf>alveodai roXp,rjreov.
NE. 2n.Holov;
8rj

HE. 'O? eorov Kara riva rpoTrov ev p.dXa Trpos


dAAijAa? exdpav Kal ordoiv evavrlav exovre1 ev
TroXXols rcov ovto>v.
NE. sn. Hcos Xeyeis;
HE. Ou/c elcodora Xoyov ov8ap.d>s' Trdvra yap
ow dAArjAoi? rd ye rrjs dperrjs ^opia Xeyeral
S1j
C

ttov cf>lXia.
NE. 2n. Nai'.
Srj

HE. S/c0Trco/i6v Trpoooxovres r6v vovv eS p.dXa,


Trorepov ovrcos aTrXovv eori rovro, Travros p.aXXov
r)

avrcov exov Siacf>opdv rols vyyeveoiv es ti2;


ne. sn. Nai, Xeyois av Trfj oKeTrreov.
HE. 'Ev rols vp.Traoi xprj ^qrelv ooa KaXd p.ev
avrd rldep.ev evavrla dAAi^Acov
S'

Xeyop.ev, els Svo


eiSij.
BT corr. Stallbaum.
1

tx0vre] ^Xer0"
:

tc Campbell ion earlv fori n Heindorf.


B
T
h
1

The word avdpeia has a much wider meaning than the


1

English "courage." Like the Latin virtus embraces all


it

176
THE STATESMAN
of virtue may very easily be assailed by those who
appeal to popular opinion in contentious arguments.
y. soc. I do not understand.
stu. I will say it again in another way. I suppose
you believe that courage is one part of virtue.
1

y. soc. Certainly.
str. And, of course, that self-restraint is dilferent
from courage, but is also a part of virtue of which
courage is a part.
y. soc. Yes.
str. Now I must venture to utter a strange
doctrine about them.
y. soc. What is it ?
str. That, in a way, they are in a condition of
great hostility and opposition to each other in many
beings.
y. soc. What do you mean ?

str. Something quite unusual for, you know, all


;

the parts of virtue are usually said to be friendly to


one another.
y. soc. Yes.
str. Now shall we pay careful attention and see
whether this is so simple, or, quite the contrary, there
is in some respects a variance between them and
their kin ?
y. soc. Yes ; please tell how we shall investigate
the question.
str. Among all the parts we must look for those
which we call excellent but place in two opposite
classes.
qualities which are desirable in a perfect man, especially the
more active and positive virtues. When applied to one
particular kind of virtue it is applied to courage, but
throughout this discussion it is used in the wider sense, for
which there is no single English equivalent.
'
VoL. Ill N 177
PLATO
ne. 2n. Key' eri oacf>eorepov .

HE. '0vtrjta Kal rdxos, elre Kara oa>p.ara elre


D ev ifivxals elre Kara cf>covrjs cf>opdv, elre aircov
tovtcov elr' ev elScoXois ovrcov, ottoocl p.ovoiKi)
p.ijxovii,evrj Kal eri ypacf>iKrj p.ip,rjp.ara TrapeXerai,
tovtcov tivos iTraiverrjs elre airos TrcoTrore yeyovas
elre dXXov Trapcov eTraivovvros rjodrjoai;
ne. 2n. Tl p.rjv;
HE. TH KoX p.vrjp.rjv exeis ovriva rpoTrov airo 8pco-
oiv ev eKaorois tovtcov;
NE. 2n. Ov8ap.cos.
HE. TAp' ovv 8vvaros airo av yevoip.rjv, cooTrep
Kal Siavoovp.ai, Sid Xoycov evSelaodal ooi;
E ne. sn. Ti S' ov;
HE. 'Pdoiov eoiKas rjyelodai to toiovtov oKo-
Trcdp,eda S' ovv airo ev rols vTrevavrlois yeveoi.
8tj

tcov yap Trpdecov Kal TtoXXoKis


ev TroXXals
eKaorore rdxos Kal o^o8porrjra Kal ovrrjra Sia-
vorjoecos re Kal ocop.aros, eri Se Kal cf>covrjs, orav
dyaodcop,ev Xeyop.ev airo eTraivovvres /iia xpcop.evoi
,

Trpooprjoei rfj rrjs dvopelas.


ne. 2n. Iltu?;
HE. '0v Kal dv8pelov ttov ^ap.ev, Kal
Trpcorov
ra^i Kal av8piKov, Kal ocf>oSp6v cboavrcos' Kal
Trdvrcos emcpepovres rovvop.a Xeyco Koivov Trdoais
o

rals cf>voeoi ravrais eTraivovp,ev aura?.


ne. 2n. Nai'.
HE. Ti Se; to rrjs rjpep.alas av
yeveoecos elSos dp'
307 ov TroAAd/ci? eTnQveKap.ev ev TroXXals tcov Trpdecov;
NE. 2n. Kal ocp68pa ye.
HE. Maiv oSv ov rdvavrla Xeyovres Trepl eKel-
r)

vcov rovro cf>deyy6p.eda


;

178
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. Say more clearly what you mean.
str. Acuteness and quickness, whether in body
or'soul or vocal utterance, whether they are real or
exist in such likenesses as music and graphic art
produce in imitation of them have you never your
self praised one of them or heard them praised by
others ?
y. soc. Yes, of course.
str. And do you remember in what way they
praise them as occasion olfers ?
y. soc. Not in the least.
str. I wonder if I can express to you in words
what I have in mind.
y. soc. Why not ?
str. You seem to think that is an easy thing to
do. However, let us consider the matter as it appears
in the opposite classes. For example, when we
admire, as we frequently do in many actions, quick
ness and energy and acuteness of mind or body or
even of voice, we express our praise of them by one
word, courage.
y. soc. How so ?
str. We say acute and courageous in the first
instance, also quick and courageous, and energetic
and courageous ; and when we apply this word as a
common term applicable to all persons and actions
of this class, we praise them.
y. soc. Yes, we do.
str. But do we not also praise the gentle type of
movement in many actions ?
Y. soc. We do, decidedly.
str. And in doing so, do we not say the opposite
of what we said about the other class ?

179
PLATO

NE. sn. Hds;


HE. 'Q.s rjovxald Trov cf>ap.ev eKaorore Kai ooxf>po-
viKd, re Sidvoiav Trparrop.eva ayaodevres Kal
Trepl
Kato. rag Trpd^eis ad ftpaBea. Kal p.aXaKa, Kal kri
Trepl cf>covas yiyvop.eva Xela /cai /Japea, /cai Traoav
pvdpuK'qv Klvtjoiv Kal oXrjv p.ovoav ev Kaipco fxpaSv-
B tTjtl Trpooxpcop.evrjv , ov to rrjs dvopelas dXXd to
rrjs Koop.iorrjros ovop,a emcf>epop.ev avrols vp.Traoiv .

ne. sn. 'AMjdeorara.


HE. Kai p.rjv ottotov av ye dp.cf>6repa ylyvrp,ai
ravra rjpuv a/caipa,1 p.erafidXXovres e/cdYepa avru>v
ifieyop.ev eTrl rdvavrla TrdXiv dTrovep.ovre9 rols
ovop.aoiv.
ne. sn. Ilcos;
HE. 'Ovrepa p.ev aura yiyvop,eva tov Kaipov /cai
darrco /cai oKXrjporepa cf>ouv6p.eva? u/Jpi0Ti/cd /cai
jU.avi/ca Xeyovres, rd 8e fiapvrepa /cai fipaSvrepa
C /cai p.aXaKd>repa SeiAd /cai /JAa/ci/cd, /cai o^eSov
co? to TroAu ravrd re /cai rr)v ococf>pova cf>vaiv /cac
ttjv dvopelav rrjv tcov evavrlcov, olov TroXeulav3
SiaAa^ouoa? cndoiv iSe'a?, out' dAA^Aai? /uyvu/ieVa?
ecf>evploKop,ev ev rai? Trepi to roiavra Trpaeoiv, en
re tovs ev rals ifivxals avrds loxovras Sia^epo/ie-
vovs dAAr^Aoi? oifiop.eda edv p.eraoiujKcopiev.
45, NE. 2n. Hod orf1 Xeyeis;
Sij

HE. Ev Tracti re tovtois ols vvv enrop.ev, d>s


D eiKos re erepois ttoXXols.
eV Kara yap oluai tr/v
avrcov eKarepois vyyeveiav rd p,ev eTraivovvres d>s

&Kaipa Stephanas Ficino dKipaia BT.


1

Kal after cpacvbfiiva add. BT.


2

TroKeliiav Campbell TroKefiias BT.


3

rtov 5rj] aTrovbrji cnrovdrj T.


B
4

180
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. How is that ?
str. We are always saying " How quiet ! " and
" How restrained ! " when we are admiring the
workings of the mind, and again we speak of actions
as slow and gentle, of the voice as smooth and deep,
and of every rhythmic motion and of music in
general as having appropriate slowness ; and we
apply to them all the term which signifies, not
courage, but decorum.
Y. soc. Very true.
str. And again, on the other hand, when these
two classes seem to us out of place, we change our
attitude and blame them each in turn ; then we use
the terms in the opposite sense.
y. soc. How is that ?
str. Why, whatsoever is sharper than the occasion
warrants, or seems to be too quick or too hard, is
called violent or mad, and whatever is too heavy or
slow or gentle, is called cowardly and sluggish ;
and almost always we find that the restraint of one
class of qualities and the courage of the opposite class,
like two parties arrayed in hostility to each other,
do not mix with each other in the actions that are
concerned with such qualities. Moreover, if we
pursue the inquiry, we shall see that the men who
have these qualities in their souls are at variance
with one another.
Y. soc. In what do you mean that they are at
variance ?

str. In all those points which we just mentioned,


and probably in many others. For men who are
akin to each class, I imagine, praise some qualities as
181
PLATO
oiKela o^erepa,1 to Se rd>v Siacf>6pcov ifieyovres d>s
dXXorpia, TroXXrjv els exdpav dXXrjXois Kal ttoXXiov
Trepi Kadioravrai.
ne. 2n. KivSvvevovrnv .

HE. IlaiSia2 roivvv avrrj ye ris rj Siacf>opd rovrcov


eorlrcov elScov Trepl Se rd p.eyiora vooos vp.ftaivei
Traocov exdloTtj ylyveodai rals TroXeoiv.
NE. 2n. Hepl Troia 07j?,'

ST)
HE. Hepl oXrjv, cos ye eiKos, rrjv rov ^rjv Trapa-
E

oKewqv. oI p.ev yap

8rj
Siacf>ep6vrcos ovres KoopLioi
rov rjovxov del /Ji'ov eroip.oi ^rjv, avrol Ko.d' avrovs
/ioVoi rd ocf>erepa airo>v Trpdrrovres oiKoi re av

,
Tr/30? aTravras ovrcos 6p.iXovvres, Kal Trpos ras
ecodev TroXeis cboavrcos eroiixoi Trdvra ovres rpoTrov
riva ayeiv elprjvrjv ./cai Sia rov epcora rovrov

ST)
aKaiporepov ovra orav
fiovXovrai3 Trpdrrco-
xprj> a.
r)

olv, eXadov avrol re dTroXep.cos "oxovres Kal rovs


veovs d>oavrcos Siaridevres, ovres re del ro>v
cov ovK ev TroXXois ereoiv airoi
e

eTriridep,evcov,
308 Kal TrdlSes Kal vp.Traoa Tr0A1? dvr' eXevdepu>v
rj

TroXXdKis eXadov avrovs yevop.evoi SovXoi.


NE. sn. XaXeTr6v elTres Kal Seivov Tra#o?.
Tl ol
S'

HE. Trpos rrjv dv8pelav p.aXXov peTrovres;


dp' ovK eTrl TroXep.ov del riva ras avrcov vvrelvovres
TroXeis Sia rrjv rov roiovrov jilovrov ocf>o8porepav
Seovros emdvp.lav els exdpav ttoXXols Kal 8vvarols
Karaordvres Trdpnrav Sid>Xeoav SovXas av Kal
r)

r)

vTroxeiplovs rols exdpols vTredeoav ras avrcov Trarpl-


Sa?;
NE. 2n. "Ectti Kal ravra.
B

iripircpa] icp erepa BT. Tciifoa] Troufela BT.


2
1

BT.
*

jSoiSXwxrw
182
THE STATESMAN
their own and find fault with those of their opposites
as alien to themselves, and thus great enmity arises
between them on many grounds.
y. soc. Yes, that is likely to be the case.
str. Now this opposition of these two classes is
mere child's - play ; but when it alfects the most
important matters it becomes a most detestable
disease in the state.
y. soc. What matters does it affect ?
str. The whole course of life, in all probability.
For those who are especially decorous are read}' to
live always a quiet and retired life and to mind their
own business ; this is the manner of their intercourse
with every one at home, and they are equally ready
at all times to keep peace in some way or other with
foreign states. And because of this desire of theirs,
which is often inopportune and excessive, when they
have their own way they quite unconsciously become
unwarlike, and they make the young men unwarlike
also ; they are at the mercy of aggressors ; and thus
in a few years they and their children and the whole
state often pass by imperceptible degrees from
freedom to slavery.
y. soc. That is a hard and terrible experience.
str. But how about those who incline towards
courage ? Do they not constantly urge their
countries to war, because of their excessive desire for
a warlike life Do they not involve them in
?
hostilities with many powerful opponents and either
utterly destroy their native lands or enslave and
subject them to their foes?
y. soc. Yes, that is true, too.

183
PLATO

HE. Ylds ovv p.rj cf>cop.ev ev tovtois dp.cf>orepa


ravra rd yevrj TroXXrjv Trp6s dXXrjXa del Kal ttjv
p.eylorrjv loxeiv exdpav Kai ordoiv;
ne. 2n. (JuSa/xc3? cos ov cf>rjoop,ev.
HE. OvKovv oTrep eTreoKoTrovp.ev Kolt' dpxds dv-
rjvprjKap,ev, ori p.6pia dperr)s ov opuKpd dXXrjXois

Srj
Siacf>epeodov cf>voei Kal Kal tovs loxovras Sparov
to avro tovto;
NE. VI. Kiv8vveverov .

HE. ToSe rolvvv av Xdftcop.ev.


ne. 2n. To ttolov;
46. HE. Ei' ris
ttov tcov ovvderiKoiv emorrj-
C

p.cov Trpdyp.a oriovv tcov avrrjs epycov, Kolv to

el
cf>avXorarov eKovoa eK p.oxdrjpcov Kal ^pijoraiv
,

rivcov vvlorrjoiv Traoa emorrjp.rj Travraxov rd


1;

r)
,

rd

S'
p.ev pioxdrjpd els ovvapav arrofidXXei, emrrjSeia
Kal rd xprjord eXafiev, eK tovtcov Se Kal 6p.olcov Kal
dvop.olcov dvrcov, Trdvra els ev avrd vvdyovoa,
p.lav rivd 0vvap.iv Kal loeav Srjp.iovpyel.
NE. 2n. Ti p,rjv;
HE. Oi5S' dpa Kara cf>voiv dXrjdcos ovoa rjpZv
r)

ttoXltlKtj jirj Trore eK xprj0~rd>v Kal KaKibv dvdpcoTro>v


D

eKovoa elvai ovorrjorjrai TroXiv rivd, dXX' evSrjXov


ori TraiSia fiaoaviei, p,erd Se rrjv fidoavov
Trpcorov
av tois Svvap.evois Traioeveiv Kal vTrrjperelv Trpos
tovto avr6 TrapaScooei, Trpoordrrovoa Kal emora-
rovoa avrrj, KaddTrep vcf>avriKrj rols re alvovoi
Kal rols raXXa TrporrapaoKevd^ovoiv ooa Trpos rfjv
TrXeiv avrrjs vp.TrapaKoXovdovoa Trpoorarrei Kal
eTrurrarei, roiavra eKaorois evSeiKvvoa rd k'pya
E

dTroreXeiv ola dv emrrjSeia rjyrjrai Trpos rrjv avrrjs


,

elvai fjvpnrXoKrjv.
184
THE STATESMAN
str. Then in these examples how can we deny
that these two classes are always filled with the
greatest hostility and opposition to one another?
y. soc. We certainly cannot deny it.
str. Have we not, then, found just what we had
in view in the beginning, that important parts of
virtue are by nature at variance with one another
and also that the persons who possess them exhibit
the same opposition ?
y. soc. Yes, I suppose that is true.
str. Let us then take up another question.
y. soc. What question ?

str. Whether any constructive science voluntarily


composes any, even the most worthless, of its works
out of good and bad materials, or every science
invariably rejects the bad, so far as possible, taking
only the materials which are good and fitting, out of
which, whether they be like or unlike, it gathers all
elements together and produces one form or value.
y. soc. The latter, of course.
str. Then neither will the true natural art of
statecraft ever voluntarily compose a state of good
and bad men ; but obviously it will first test them
in play, and after the test will entrust them in turn
to those who are able to teach and help them to
attain the end in view ; it will itself give orders
and exercise supervision, just as the art of weaving
constantly commands and supervises the carders and
others who prepare the materials for its web, direct
ing each person to do the tasks which it thinks are
requisite for its fabric.
185
PLATO

tn. Udvv p.ev ovv.


NE.
HE. Tavrov uoi rovd'

S1j
BaoiXiKrj ^aiVerai

rj
Trdoi tols /cara vo/iov TraiSeurai? ^ai rpocf>evoi, ttjv
rrjs imorariKrjs avrrj Svvap.iv exovoa, ovK eTrirpe-
ifieiv aoKelv o tl pvij tis Trpos rrjv avrrjs vyKpaoiv
aTrepya^op.evos rjdos ti TrpeTrov dTroreXel, ravra Se
p.6va TrapaKeXeveodai TraiSeveiv Kal tovs uev p.rj
8vvap.evovs Koivcovelv rfiovs dv8pelov Kal oaxf>povos
doa re dXXa iori relvovra Trpos dperrjv, dXX' els
309 ddeorrjra Kal vfipiv Kal dSiKiav vtto KaKrjs Bla
cf>voecos davdrois re eKfidXXei Kal
aTrcodovp,evovs,1
cf>vyais Kal rai? p.eylorais KoXd^ovoa dri/uai?.
NE. 2n. Aeyerai yovv ttcos ovtcos.
av Kal raTreivorrjri t
S'

HE. To;>? dp.adla ev

TroXXfj KvXivSovp,evovs els to SovXiKov vTro^evyvvoi


yevos.
NE. sn. 'Opdorara.
Tou? Xolttovs tolvvv, oocov at cf>vdeis em to
HE.
yevvalov IKovoX TraiSelas rvyxdvovoai Kadloraodai
Kal Seaodai /ierd rexyrjs vp.puiv Trpos dXXrjXas,
B

tovtcov ras p,ev eTrl rrjv dv8pelav uaXXov vvreivov-


oas, olov orrjp.ovocf>ves vop.loao'2 avrcov elvai to
orepeov rjdos, rd? Se eTrl to Koop.iov Trlovl re Kal
p.aXaKcp Kal /card ttjv eiKova KpoKcoSei Siavrjp.ari3
Trpooxpco^evas evavria Se reivovoas dXXrjXais,
,

Treipdrai roiovSe rivd rpoTrov vv8elv Kal u/i-


TrXeKeiv.
NE. 2n. Holov 8rj;
HE. Ylpcorov p.ev /card to (jvyyeves to deiyeves
C

ov rrjs *fiv)(fis avrow p,epos delcp vvapixooap.evrj


htrwdov^vovs Stallbaum dTrwdov^va BT.
1

vofilaas BT corr. Heusde.


2

186
THE STATESMAN
y. soc. Certainly.
str. In the same way I
think the kingly art,
keeping for itself the function of supervision, will
not allow the duly appointed teachers and foster
fathers to give any training, unless they can thereby
produce characters suitable to the constitution it is
creating, but in these things only it exhorts them
to give instruction. And those men who have no
capacity for courage and self-restraint and the other
qualities which tend towards virtue, but by the force
of an evil nature are carried away into godlessness,
violence, and injustice, it removes by inflicting
upon them the punishments of death and exile and
deprivation of the most important civic rights.
y. soc. That is about what people say, at any rate.
sth. And those in turn who wallow in ignorance
and craven humility it places under the yoke of
slavery.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. As for the rest of the people, those whose
natures are capable, if thev get education, of being
made into something fine and noble and of uniting
with each other as art requires, the kingly art takes
those natures which tend more towards courage,
considering that their character is sturdier, like the
warp in weaving, and those which incline towards
decorum, for these, to continue the simile, are spun
thick and soft like the threads of the woof, and tries
to combine these natures of opposite tendencies and
weave them together in the following manner.
y. soc. In what manner ?
str. First it binds the eternal part of their souls
with a divine bond, to which that part is akin, and
' diavififiari Cornarius : diavdrjixari BT.
187
PLATO

Sea/iai, /iera Se to delov to ^cpoyevks avrcov avdis


avdpcoTrlvois .
NE. 2n. 0 o>? tout' 61rr6? ai5;
47, HE. Irjv tcov KaXcov Kal SiKalcov Trepi Kal
dyadcov /cai tcov tovtois evavricov ovtcos oSoav dXrjdrj
S6av nera fiefiaicooecos , ottotclv ev rai? ifivxius
eyylyvrjrai, delav cf>rjplev Sai/iovi'co ylyveodai yevei.
NE. 2n. YlpeTrei yovv ovtcos,
Sij

HE. ToV ttoXitlKov Kal tov dyadov vop.oderrjv


dp' lop.ev oti llovov Svvarov elvai rrj rij?
D

Trpoo~t)Kei
/JaaiAi/cij? p.ovorj tovto avro epvnoielv tols 6pdc7>s

fieraXafiovoi TrcuSei'a?, ovs eXeyop.ev vvv Sij;


NE. 2n. To yovv e'iKos.
dv Spav ye, co SuWpare?, dSvvarfj to
S'

HE. "O?
tolovtov, /LiijSeVore tols vvv ^rjrovp.evois ovop.aoiv
avrov Trpooayopevcop,ev .
NE. 2n. 'Opdorara.
HE. Ti dv8pela faxrj Xap.fiavop.evrj rij?
ovv;
roiauYij? dAij^ei'a? dp' ovx rjp.epovrai Kai tcov Si-
Kalcov p.dXiora ovtco Koivcovelv dv edeXrjoeiev, /xij
E

/ieraAa/Jouaa Se ano/cAiVei p.aXXov Trpos 0ijpicoSij


rivd cf>voiv;
Iloo? ov;
S'

NE. 2n.
HE. Ti Se; to rij? /cooyxia? cpvoecos dp' ov tovtcov
p.ev p.eraXafi6v tcov Socov ovtcos ococppov Kal
cf>p6vip.ov, cos ye ev TroXirela, ylyverai, /iij Koivcovrj-
oav Se cov Xeyop.ev eTrovelSiorov riva evTjdelas SiKai6-
rara Aa/i/Javei r/!>ij/iijv;
NE. 2n. Ilavu p.ev ovv.
HE. OvKovv vpurXoKrjv Kal Seop.6v tovtov tols
p,ev KaKols Tr/30? ctc/ia? auroi)? Kal tols dyadols Trpos
tovs KaKovs /iijSeVore p.6vcp.ov cf>cop.ev ylyveodai,
188
THE STATESMAN

after the divine it binds the animal part of them with


human bonds.
Y. soc. Again I ask What do you mean ?
str. I mean that really true and assured opinion
about honour, justice, goodness and their opposites
is divine, and when it arises in men's souls, it arises
in a godlike race.
y. soc. That would be litting, at any rate.
str. Do we not know, then, that the statesman
and good law-giver is the only one to whom the
power properly belongs, by the inspiration of the
kingly art, to implant this true opinion in those who
have rightly received education, those of whom we
were just now speaking ?
y. soc. Well, probably.
str. And let never, Socrates, call him who
us
has not such power by the names we are now
examining.
y. soc. Quite right.
str. Now is not a courageous soul, when it lays
hold upon such truth, made gentle, and would it not
then be most ready to partake of justice? And
without it, does it not incline more towards
brutality ?
y. soc. Yes, of course.
str. And again if the decorous nature partakes of
these opinions, does it not become truly self-restrained
and wise, so far as the state is concerned, and if it
lacks participation in such qualities, does it not very
justly receive the shameful epithet of simpleton?
Y. soc. Certainly.
str. Then can we say that such interweaving and
binding together of the bad with the bad or of the
good with the bad ever becomes enduring, or that
189
PLATO

p.rj8e riva eTrioTqp.Tpr avrco oTrov8fj Trpos tovs toiov-


tovs av ^pijoW ttote ;
ne. sn. IlcD? yap;
310 HE. Tol? 8s evyevccrc yevop.ivois tc1 e a.pX^^
rjdeoi dpecf>delol re Kara cpvoiv p.ovols Sia vop.ujv
tout' elvai tc'^vij

S1j
ep.cf>veodai, Kal eTrl tovtols
cf>dpp.aKov Kal KaddTrep elTrop.ev tovtov deiorepov
,

elvai tov vvSeop.ov dperrjs p.epd>v cf>voecos dvop.olcov


Kal im rdvavrla cf>epop.evcov .
ne. 2n. AXrjdeorara.
'

HE. Tou? p.rjv Xoittovs, ovras dvdpcoTrlvovs Se-


op.ovs, vTrdpxovros tovtov tov delov oxeSov ov8ev
xaXeTrov ovte ivvoeiv ovts evvorjoavra dTroreXelv.
ne. sn. Sij, Kal rivas;
Yld>s
B

HE Tovs rcov emyap.icov Kal TralSiov Koivcovrjoecov


.

Kal tcov Trepl ras ISlas e/cSooei? Kal ydp.ovs. ol yap


Tr0AA01 ta
Trepi raCra ovK 6pdcx>s vvSovvrai Trpos
rrjv tc,>v TralScov yivvqoiv.
NE. 2n. Sr;; Tl
HE. To piev ttXovtov Kal 8vvdp,eu>v ev tois toi-
ovtois oid>yp.ara n Kal tis dv cLs dia Xoyov aTtov-
Sd^ol p.ep.cf>6pievos
;

ne. sn. Ov8ev.


48. HE. MaAAov Se ye SiKaiov tcov Trepl ra
yevrj Troiovp.evcov eTrip.eXeiav tovtcdv Trepi Xeyeiv,
el
C

tl jfrj Kara rpoTrov Trparrovoiv.


ne. 2n. Eiwo? yap ovv.

(and ycvoliivois after apxris) T.


B
1

e
7'

re] 76
:

More or less equivalent to naturalization. It apparently


1

means the adoption into one state of children born to


190
THE STATESMAN
any science would ever seriously make use of it in
uniting such persons ?
y. soc. Of course not.
str. But we may say that in those only who were
of noble nature from their birth and have been
nurtured as befits such natures it is implanted by the
laws, and for them this is the medicine prescribed
by science, and, as we said before, this bond which
unites unlike and divergent parts of virtue is more
divine.
y. soc. Very true.
str. The remaining bonds, moreover, being human,
are not very dijlicult to devise or, after one has
devised them, to create, when once this divine bond
exists.
y. soc. How so ? And what are the bonds ?
str. Those made between states concerning
intermarriages and the sharing of children by
adoption,1 and those relating to portionings and
marriages within the state. For most people make
sucii bonds without proper regard to the procreation
of children.
y. soc. How is that ?
str. The pursuit of wealth or power in connexion
with matrimony but why should anyone ever take
the trouble to blame it, as though it were worth
arguing about ?
y. soc. There is no reason for doing so.
str. We have better cause, however, to speak our
minds about those whose chief care is the family, in
case their conduct is not what it should be.
y. soc. Yes ; very likely.

citizens of another. This was not, as a rule, practised in the


Greek city states, but Plato here seems to recommend it.
191
PLATO

8rj
Ylparrovoi ov8e

e
HE. p.ev evos opdov Xoyov,
rrjv ev tu> Trapaxprjp.a SicoKovres paorcovrjv Kal
tovs p.ev Trpooop.olovs avrols doTrd^eodai, tovs

o
dvofiolovs jtrj mepyeiv TrXeiorov tt) hvoxepeiq.

,
p.epos aTrovep.ovres .

NE. 2n. Ildi?;


HE. 01 p.ev Ttov Koop.ioi to ocf>erepov avrcov rjdos
^rjrovoi, Kal Kara Svvapuv yap.ovol re Trapd tovto>v
Kal ras e/cSiSo/ieW? Trap' avrcov els tovtovs
eKTrep.TrovctI TrdXlV o>s avtoIs ro Tr6/31 ttjv
D

S
dv8pelav yevos opa, ttjv avrov p.eraSicoKov cf>voiv,
8eov Troi(lv dpxf>orepa ta yevrj tovto>v rovvavrlov
aTrav.
NE. 2n. Ylcos, xal Sid ri;
HE. Aiori Trecf>vKev dv8pela re ev TroXXals yeve-
oeoiv ap.iKros yevvcop.evrj ooxf>povi cf>voei Kara p.ev
dpxds aKp.d^eiv pcop.rj, reXevrcooa 8e eavdelv Trav-
raTraoi /iaviai?.
NE. 2n. EiVo?.
HE. 'H
8e alSovs ye av Xlav TrXrjprjs *fivxrj Kai
aKepaoros roXp.rjs dv8pelas, em Se yeveds TroXXds
E

ovtco yevvrjdeloa, vcodeoripa cf>vectdai tov Kaipov


8rj

Kal aTroreXevrcooa TravraTraoiv dvaTrrjpovodai.


NE. 2n. Kai tovto elKos ovtco vp.fialveiv
.

Tovtovs tovs Seop.ovs eXeyov ori ^aAe-


8rj

HE.
ttov ovSev vv8elv v,ndpavros tov Trepl ta KaXd Kal
dyadd p.lav exeiv dp.cf>6repa rd yevrj Soav. tovto
yap ev Kal oXov eori p7aoiXiKrjs vvvcf>dvoecos epyov,
p.rj8eTrore eav dcf>loraodai ococf>pova aTr6 rcov dv8pel-
cov rjdrj, vyKepKl^ovra 8e 6p.oSolais Kal n/iai? Kal
ari/iiai? Kal 8oljais Kal dpvqpeicov eK8ooeoiv els
dXXrjXovs, Xeiov Kal to Xeyop.evov evrjrpiov vcf>aop.a
192
THE STATESMAN
str. The fact they act on no right theory at

is,
all they seek their ease for the moment welcoming

;
;

gladly those who are like themselves, and finding


those who are unlike them unendurable, they give
the greatest weight to their feeling of dislike.
y. soc. How so

?
str. The decorous people seek for characters like
their own so far as they can they marry wives of
;

that sort and in turn give their daughters in marriage


to men of that sort and the courageous do the same,
;

eagerly seeking natures of their own kind, whereas


both classes ought to do quite the opposite.
y. soc. How so, and why ?

str. Because in the nature of things courage,

if
propagated through many generations with no admix
ture of a self-restrained nature, though at first

it
is
strong and flourishing, in the end blossoms forth in
utter madness.
y. soc. That likely.
is

str. But the soul, on the other hand, that too


is
full of modesty and contains no alloy of courage or
boldness, after many generations of the same kind
becomes too sluggish and finally is utterly crippled.
y. soc. That also likely to happen.
is

str. It was these bonds, then, that said there


I

was no difficulty in creating, provided that both


classes have one and the same opinion about the
honourable and the good. For indeed the whole
business of the kingly weaving comprised in this
is

and this alone, in never allowing the self-restrained


characters to be separated from the courageous, but
in weaving them together by common beliefs and
honours and dishonours and opinions and interchanges
of pledges, thus making of them a smooth and, as
vol in. o 193
PLATO

311 ijvvayovra aincov, ras iv


e rals ttoXsoiv dpxds
del Koivfj tovtois imrpeTreiv.
NE. 2n. Ilco?;
HE. Ov dv ivos dpxovros ^/>eia vp.faiv?),
p,ev
tov ravra dpuf>orepa e^ovra alpovp,evov imorarrjv
ov S' dv TrXeiovcov, tovtcov p.ipos eKarepcov vp.p.iy-
vvvra. ra p.ev yap ococf>p6vcov dpxovrcov rjdrj
vcf>6Spa p.ev evXafirj /cai Si/caia /cai ocorrjpia,
8pip.vtrjros 8e (cai tivos ira/iorijro? oelas /cai
TrpaKriKrjs cVSei/rai.

S1j
ne. 2n. Ao/cei yow /cai raSe.
HE. Ta dvSpela ye av Trpos p*ev to SIKaiov
S'
B

evXafies eKelvcov imSeeorepa, to eV rai?

S'
/cai
Trpdeoi irap.ov1 Siacf>ep6vrcos io^ei. Trdvra Se
/caAco? ylyveodai ra Trepi ra? TroAeis iSi'a /cai Srjp.oolq
tovtoiv p.rj Trapayevop.evoiv dp.cf>olv dSvvarov.
ne. 2n. Ilco? yap ov;
Tovto
Srj

HE. re'Aos vcf>aop.aros evdvTrXoKiq ovp.-


TrXaKev2 ylyveodai cf>cop,ev TroXiriKrjs Trpaecos to
tcov dv8pelcov /cai ococf>p6vcov dvdpamcov Tjdos,
oTrorav 6p.ovolq /cai cf>iXIq Koivov vvayayovoa
C

avrdv tov filov fiaoiXiKrj rixvrj, Trdvrcovp,eyaXo-


rj

TrpeTreorarov vcf>aop.arcov /cai dpiorov dTroreXeoaoa3


tovs r dXXovs iv rai? TroAeai Trdvras SovXovs /cai
eXevdepovs ap.moxovoa ovvexrj tovtco tco TrXiypari,
,

/cai /caa' ooov evSalp.ovi Trpoo^Kei ylyveodai TroXei


tovtov p.rj8ap.fj p.rjSev iXXelTrovoa apxrj re /cai
eTriararfj .
NE. 2n. KdAAiora au tov fiaoiXiKov dTrereXeoas
eve, /cai tov ttoXitiKov
c1>

dv8pa rjp.lv,
.

iraniiv Ast t6 jiiv BT. T.


B

avlxirM Keiv
2
1

^I'/iirXeK^v
:

diroreX^iraira Ast dtroreX&7a<ra aicr' cZvcii Koivbv mss.


3

194
THE STATESMAN
we say, well-woven fabric, and then entrusting to
them in common for ever the ollices of the state.
Y. soc. How is that to be done ?
str. When one official is needed, by choosing a
president who possesses both qualities ; and when a
board is desired, by combining men of each class.
For the characters of self.restrained officials are
exceedingly careful and just and conservative, but
they lack keenness and a certain quick and active
boldness.
y. soc. That also seems, at least, to be true.
str. The courageous natures, on the other hand,
are deficient in justice and caution in comparison
with the former, but excel in boldness of action ;
and unless both these qualities are present it is
impossible for a state to be entirely prosperous in
public and private matters.
y. soc. Yes, certainly.
str. This, then, is the end, let us declare,of the
web of the statesman's activity, the direct inter
weaving of the characters of restrained and courageous
men, when the kingly science has drawn them
together by friendship and community of sentiment
into a common life, and having perfected the most
glorious and the best of all textures, clothes with it
all the inhabitants of the state, both slaves and
freemen, holds them together by this fabric, and
omitting nothing which ought to belong to a happy
state, rules and watches over them.
y. soc. You have given us, Stranger, a most com
plete and admirable treatment of the king and the
statesman.

195
PHILEBUS
INTRODUCTION TO THE PHILEBUS

The object of the Philebus is the determination of


"the good." Philebus, a totally unknown person
whose name serves as the title of the dialogue, is
represented as a thinker of the hedonistic school.
He has, apparently, been lecturing or taking part
in a discussion, but has withdrawn on account of
weariness. He speaks only a few short sentences
in the whole dialogue. Protarchus, son of the
wealthy Callias, serves to give the form of dialogue
to the discourse, but his personality is not even
outlined, and his remarks are as colourless as are
those of the younger Socrates in The Statesman.
Even Socrates himself, as in The Sophist, The
Statesman, and other dialogues of approximately the
same date, shows little personality : he is merely
the mouthpiece of the doctrine.
This dialogue, like The Sophist and The Statesman,
contains a preliminary illustration of method ; for
the discussion of sounds in speech (17 if.) serves the
"
same purpose as the " angler in The Sophist and
the "art of weaving" in The Statesman. The
Philebus seems to be slightly later in date than the
other two dialogues.
In opposition to the assertion ascribed to Philebus,
that pleasure is the good, Socrates seems at lirst
prepared to maintain (with Eucleides and the Cynics)
199
INTRODUCTION TO THE PHILEBUS
that knowledge is the good, but presently announces
his suspicion that some third competitor will be
awarded the first place, and that even the second
place will not be held by pleasure. It is soon agreed
that a mixture of knowledge and pleasure is necessary
for the most desirable life. The discussion is carried
on in great measure by means of classification or
division, which is here founded on the principles (de
rived from Pythagorean sources) of the Limited and
the Unlimited. Pleasure and pain, and everything
which is capable of degrees of intensity, belong to
the class of the Unlimited, whereas number, measure,
and knowledge belong to that of the Limited, which
is regarded as essentially superior.
The composition of the mixture which is necessary
for the most perfect life is discussed in detail. This
involves a description and condemnation of excess in
the most intense pleasures and an interesting analysis
of the mixture of pain and pleasure in anger, pity,
revenge, and other emotions as they alfect us in
theatrical representations or in real life. The
pleasures of scientific knowledge are said to be
absolutely pure and unmixed, therefore truer than
all mixed pleasures and preferable to them. Again,
pleasure being, according to certain hedonists, a
process or Becoming, is found to be on that account
inferior to knowledge, which is a state or Being.
The discussion of kinds of knowledge (55 c lF.) in
cludes (55 e) the distinction between scientific know
ledge, based on arithmetic, measuring, and weighing,
and such knowledge as rests upon the mere schooling
of the senses.
In the end the order in which possessions may be
called good is established as follows : (1) measure,
200
INTRODUCTION TO THE PHILEBUS
moderation, fitness, and the like ; (2) proportion,
beauty, perfection, and their kin ; (S) mind and
wisdom ; (4) sciences, arts, and true opinions ; (5)
pure pleasures.
This dialogue, though it lacks the dramatic
qualities which make many of Plato's works take
rank among the most charming products of all
literature, and in spite of certain inconsistencies and
even defects of reasoning for instance, the confusion
between goodness and a good thing (55 b) or the
insistence upon the existence of false pleasures,
"
though the epithet " false belongs really to opinion,
not to the pleasures themselves is an interesting
and instructive presentation of an important subject.
It also exhibits clearly one side, at least, of Plato's
development at a time which must be somewhat
after the middle of his career.

Annotated editions of the Vhilebut are by Charles


Badham (London, 1855 and 1878) and E. Poste
(Oxford University Press, 1860).

201
<MAHB02
[H nEPI HAONH2, H0IKO2]

! TA TOT AIAAOI'OT IlPOSfillA


1
2nKPATH2, nPOTAPXO2, *IAHB02

1. "Opa Srj, Ylpcorapxe, riva Xoyov p.eXXeis


2n.
Trapd OiAr^Sou Sexeodai vvvl Kal Trpos rlva tov1
Trap' rjpuv dp.cf>ioftrjreiv , eav pvq ooi Kara vovv
B 7? Xey6p.evos . /JouAei o-uyKecf>aXaicoocop,eda eKa-
repov;
npn. Yldvv pXv ouv.
QfiMljpos p,ev tolvvv dyadov elval cf>rjoi to
2n.
xalpeiv Trdoi ^coois Kal ttjv rjSovrjv Kal repifiiv,
Kal ooa rov yevovs eorl tovtov ovp.cf>cova, to Se
Trap' rjp.cov du^ioftrjrrjp.d eori pvq raiha, dXXd
to cf>povelv Kal to voelv Kal to p,ep.vrjodai Kal ta
tovtcov aS vyyevrj, 86av re 6pdr)v Kal dXrjdels
C Xoyiop.ovs, tr}s ye rjoovrjs dp.elvco Kal Xcoco yiyve-
odai vp.Traoiv ooaTrep avrcov Swara ueraXafielv
8vvarols Se p.eraoxeiv dxf>eXip.corarov aTrdvrcov
eivai Traox to!? ovol re Kal ioop,evois. p.cov

ovx ovto> ttcos Xeyop.ev, co QlXrjfie, e/carepoi;


*I. Hdvrcov p.ev ovv p.dXiora, co HcoKpares .
1
rhv Schleiermacher : rfix BT.
202
PHILEBUS
[or ON PLEASURE, ethical]

CHARACTERS
Sochares, Pbotahciius, Philebus

soc. Observe, then, Protarchus, what the doctrine


is which you are now to accept from Philebus, and
what our doctrine is, against which you are to argue,
if you do not agree with it. Shall we make a brief
statement of each of them ?
pro. By all means.
soc. Very well : Philebus says that to all living
beings enjoyment and pleasure and gaiety and what
ever accords with that sort of thing are a good ;
whereas our contention is that not these, but
wisdom and thought and memory and their kindred,
right opinion and true reasonings, are better and
more excellent than pleasure for all who are capable
of taking part in them, and that for all those now
existing or to come who can partake of them they
are the most advantageous of all things. Those are
pretty nearly the two doctrines we maintain, are they
not, Philebus ?
phi. Yes, Socrates, exactly.
203
PLATO

2n. Ae^ei tovtov tov vvv

c3
S17
SiS6p,evov,
Ylpcorapxe, Xoyov;
npn. 'AvdyKrj Q>lXrjfios yap rjp.lv o
Sexeodar
KaX6s anrelprjKev.

8rj
2n. Aci Trepl avra>v rpoTrcp Travri raXrjdes
tttj Trepavdrjvai

;
npn. Ael yap ovv.
D

2n. "I0i S1j, Trpos tovtols Siop.oXoyrjocop,eda


2.

Kal rdSe.
npn. To ttolov;
2n. 'Q? vvv r)p.cov eKarepos eiv ^vxrjs Kal
Siddeoiv dTro^alveiv tiva emxeiprjoei rrjv Svva-
p.evrjv dvdpcoTrois Traoi tov filov evSaip.ova Trap-
exeiv. dp' ovx ovtcos;
npn. Ovrco p,ev ovv.
2n. OvKovv vp.els p,ev rrjv tov xalpeiv> rjp.eis

S'
av rrjv tov tppovelv;
npn. "Ean ravra.
2n. Ti S', av dXXrj ri? Kpebna>v tovtcov ^avfj;
ovK, av p.ev rjhovfj1 p.aXXov cf>alvrjrai vyyevrjs,
E

p.d>v
rjrru>p,eda p.kv dpuf>orepoi tov ravra exovros
12
fiefialcos ftiov, Kparel 8e ttjs rjSovrjs tov rrjs
6

cf>povrjoecos
;

npn. Nai.
2n. *Av 8e ye cf>povrjoei, viKa p.ev ^povrjois ttjv
rjSovrjv, Se rjrrarai; ravd' ovtojs 6p.oXoyovp,evd
r)

cf>are, ttcos;
r)

npn. 'E/ioi yovv SoKel.


Ti
rl

2n. Se OiA,^/Jco cf>rjs;


;

*i. 'Ep.ol p,ev Trdvrcos viKdv rjSovrj S0/cei Kai


Sder ov 8e, Ylpcorapxe, avros yvcooei.
ijdovfi] t}dovr\ BT.
1

204
PHILEBUS

soc. And do you, Protarchus, accept this doctrine


which is now committed to you ?
pro. I must accept it ; for our handsome Philebus
has withdrawn.
soc. And must the truth about these doctrines be
attained by every possible means ?
pro. Yes, it must.
soc. Then let us further agree to this :
pro. To what ?
soc. That each of us will next try to prove clearly
that it is a condition and disposition of the soul
which can make life happy for all human beings. Is
not that what we are going to do ?
pro. It is.
soc. Then you will show that it is the condition
of pleasure, and I that it is that of wisdom ?
pro. True.
soc. What if some other life be found superior to
these two ? Then if that life is found to be more
akin to pleasure, both of us are defeated, are we
not, by the life which has lirm possession of this
superiority, but the life of pleasure is victor over
the life of wisdom.
pro. Yes.
soc. But if it is more akin to wisdom, then wisdom
is victorious and pleasure is vanquished ? Do you
agree to that ? Or what do you say ?
pro. Yes, I at least am satislied with that.
soc. But how about you, Philebus ? What do you
say ?
phi. Ithink and always shall think that pleasure
is the victor. But you, Protarchus, will make your
own decision.

205
PLATO
npn.
llapaSou?, u) Oi'Aij/Je, rjp.lv tov Xoyov
ovK av eri Kvpios eiij? rrjs Trpos HcoKpdrrj op.o-
Xoylas rj /cai tovvolvtIov.
B M. 'AXrjdrj Ae'yeis" dAAd yap dcf>ooiovp.ai /cai
p.aprvpop.ai vvv avrrjv ttjv deov.
npn. Kai rjp.eis ooi tovtcov ye auri3^ ovp.p.dp-
rvpes av elp.ev,1 cos ravra eXeyes a Ae'yei?. dAAd
ta p.era ravra eij?, co HcoKpares, o/ico? /cai
8rj

p,era OiAr^Sou iKovros ottcos av edeXrj, Treipco-

rj
p.eda Trepalveiv.
3. 2n. IleipareW, aTr' avrrjs Se "rij? deov, rjv
to

S'
6'Se AcppoOiTrjv p.ev Xeyeodal cf>rjoi, dAij^e'-
orarov avrrjs ovop.a 'Uoovrjv elvai.
npn. 'Opdorara.
2n. To
S'

c/xov Seo?, Ilpcorap^e, dei Trp6?


o)
C

ra rajv decov ovop.ara ovK eon. /car' dvdpcoTrov,


dAAd Trepa tou p.eyiorov cf>ofiov. Kal vvv ttjv
p.kv Acf>poSlrrjv, 0Trrj eKelvrj cf>lXov, ravtYj Trpoo-
ayopevco, rfjv Se rjSovrjv oiSa cos cori TtolKlXov,
Ka1 oTrep elTrov, aTr e/cetVij? rjp.as dpxop.ivovs
evdvp.elodai Sei Kal aKoTrelv rjvriva cf>voiv e^ei.
eori yap, olKovciv p,ev ovtcos dTrXcos, ev ti, p.opif>as
Se SrjTrov Travrolas elXrj^e Kal riva rpoTrov dv-
op.olovs dAAijAai?. iSe yap, ^Seodai p.iv cf>ap.ev
tov aKoXaoralvovra Kal
D

dvdpcoTrov, rjSeodai Se
tov ococf>povovvra avrcp tco
ouxf>povelv ,fjSeodai
av Kal tov dvorjralvovra Kal dvorjrcov Socov
S'

Kal av Kal tov


8'

eXTrlSa>v p.eorov, rjSeodai cf>po-


vovvra avrip tco c^poveiv2 /cai tovtcov to>v
rjSovcov eKarepas ttcos dv tis
op.olas dAA^Aai?
eivai Xeycov ovK dvorjros cf>alvoiro eVSi/co>?;
dfiev corr. Ven. 189: BT.
1

206
PHILEBUS
pro. Since you entrusted the argument to me,
Philebus, you can no longer dictate whether to make
the agreement with Socrates or not.
phi. True ; and for that reason I wash my hands
of it and now call upon the goddess 1 herself to witness
that I do so.
pro. And we also will bear witness to these words
of yours. But all the same, Socrates, Philebus may
agree or do as he likes, let us try to linish our argu
ment in due order.
soc. We must try, and let us begin with the very
goddess who Philebus says is spoken of as Aphrodite
but is most truly named Pleasure.
pro. Quite right.
soc. My awe, Protarchus, in respect to the names
of the gods is always beyond the greatest human
fear. And now I call Aphrodite by that name which
is agreeable to her ; but pleasure I know has various
aspects, and since, as I said, we are to begin with her,
wc must consider and examine what her nature is.
For, when you just simply hear her name, she is
only one thing, but surely she takes on all sorts of
shapes which are even, in a way, unlike each other.
For instance, we say that the man who lives without
restraint has pleasure, and that the self-restrained
man takes pleasure in his very self-restraint ; and
again that the fool who is full of foolish opinions and
hopes is pleased, and also that the wise man takes
pleasure in his very wisdom. And would not any
person who said these two kinds of pleasure were
like each other be rightly regarded as a fool ?
1
The goddess of Pleasure, "RSovti personified.

2
cppovovvra . . cppoveiv T: criiiippovouvra . . cjwcp'poviv 15.

207
PLATO

ITPn. Eiai p.kv ydp oltt' evavrlcov,


HcoKpares, c5
avrai Trpayp.dro>v , ov p.rjv avral ye dAA^Aai? evav-
E rlai. Trcos yap rjSovrj ye rjSovfj ovx1 opuoiorarov
dv elrj, tovto avro eavrcp, Trdvrcov xprjp.ara>v ;
2n. Kai yap ^pcD/Lia, c5 Saip.6vie, ^pcOp.r*rf
Kato. ye avro tovto ovSev Sioi'oei to xpd>p.a elvai
Trav, to ye p.fjv p,eXav rco XevKcp Trdvres yiyvco-
oKop,ev co? Trpos tco Sidcf>opov elvai Kal evavrico-
rarov rvyxavef Kal Kal oxrjp.a oxrjp.ari

8rj
ov
/card ravrov yevei p.ev eori Trav ev, rd 8e p.eprj
rois p.epeoiv avrov ta p.ev evavrid>rara dAA^Aoi?,
13 rd 8e Siacf>op6rrjra exovra p,vpiav Trov rvyxdvef
Kal TroXX' erepa ovtcos exovd' evprjoop,ev coore
tovto> ye tco Xoycp pAj Ttloreve, rcp Trdvra rd
evavricorara ev ttoiovvti. cf>ofiovp.ai 8e p.rj rivas
rjSovds rjSovals evprjoop.ev evavrlas.
npn. "Iocos" dAAd rl
rovd' rjp.cov fiXdifiei r6v
Xoyov;
sn. "Ori Trpooayopeveis avrd dvop.oia ovra
irepcp, cprjoop,ev, 6v6p.ari. Xeyeis ydp dyada
Trdvra elvai rd rjSea. to p.ev ovv p.rj ovx ^ea
elvai rd ijSe'a Xoyos ovSels dp.cf>iof}rjrei, KaKa
B

ovra avrcov ra TroMa Kai ayaua be, cos ij/iei?


cf>ap,ev, op.cos Travra ov Trpooayopeveis dyadd
avrd, op.oXoycov avop.oia elvai, rip Xoycp ei tis
tl
8rj

oe TrpooavayKa^oi. ovv ravrov ev rals


KaKais 6p.olcos Kal ev dyadais evov Trdoas Tfiovas
dyadov elvai Trpooayopeveis
;

npn. Ylcos Xeyeis, oiei ydp riva


c3

Eco/cpa/re?;
ovyxoprjoeodai, dep,evov rjSovrjv elvai rdyadov,

ovx Badham BT.


1

fit} ovx
:

208
PHILEBUS
pro. No, Socrates, for though they spring from
opposite sources, they are not in themselves opposed
to one another ; for how can pleasure help being
of all things most like pleasure, that is, like itself ?
soc. Yes, my friend, and colour is like colour ; in
so far as every one of them is a colour they will all be
the same, yet we all recognize that black is not only
dilferent from white, but is its exact opposite. And
so, too, figure is like figure ; they are all one in
kind ; but the parts of the kind are in some instances
absolutely opposed to each other, and in other cases
there is endless variety of dilference ; and we can
find many other examples of such relations. Do
not, therefore, rely upon this argument, which makes
all the most absolute opposites identical. I am
afraid we shall find some pleasures the opposites of
other pleasures.
pro. Perhaps ; but why will that injure my con
tention ?
soc. Because I shall say that, although they are
unlike, you apply to them a dilferent designation.
For you say that all pleasant things are good.
Now no argument contends that pleasant things are
not pleasant ; but whereas most of them are bad
and only some are good, as we assert, nevertheless
you call them all good, though you confess, if forced
to it by argument, that they are unlike. Now what
is the identical element which exists in the good and
bad pleasures alike and makes you call them all a
good ?
pro. What do you mean, Socrates ? Do you
suppose anyone who asserts that the good is pleasure
vol. in. p 209
PLATO

elra dveeodal oov Xeyovros ras p,ev elvai rivas


C dyadas rjSovds, ras Se rivas erepas airo>v KaKas;
2n. 'AAA' ovv dvop.olovs ye cf>rjoeis avras dAA^-
Aai? elvai Kal rivas ivavrias.
npn. Ovti Kad ooov ye rjSovai.
2n. HdXiv els r6v airov cf>epop.eda Xoyov, c3
Ylpcorapxe, oi5S' dpa rjSovrjv rjSovrjs Sidcf>opov,
dXXa Traoa? 6p.olas elvai cf>rjoop.ev, Kal rd Trapa-
Selyp.ara r)p.ds rd vvv Xexdevra ovSev rirpd>oKei,
Treio6p,eda} 8e Kal epovp.ev aTrep ol Trdvrcov cpav-
D Xorarol re Kal Trepl Xoyovs dp.a veoi.
npn. Td
8rj

Tr01a Xeyeis;
sn. Ori oe p.ip.ovp,evos e'yco /cai a/xwd/ievo?
eav roXp.co Xeyeiv co? to dvop.oiorarov eori rco
dvop.oiordrcp Travrcov op.oiorarov eco rd aura
ool Xeyeiv, Kal cf>avovp,edd ye vecorepoi rov 8eovros, ,
Kal Adyo? rjp.lv eKTreod>v olxrjoer ai. TrdXiv ovv
6

avrov dvaKpovcop.eda, Kal rax dv lovres2 els ra?


6p.oias locos dv ttcos dAAijAoi? ovyxcoprjoaip,ev .

npn.
A

eye ttcos;
E

sn. vtto oov TrdXiv


4.

'E/ie 6es epcorcop,evov,


co Ylpcorapxe.
npn. To ttolov Brj;
2n. Q>p6vrjols re Kal eTriorrjp,rj Kal vovs Kal
8rj

Travd oTrooa /car' dpxds eyd> dep,evos elTrov


dyadd, Siepcorcop.evos o ti ttot' eorlv dyadov,
dp' 01) ravrov Treloovrai rovro oTrep o6s Xoyos;
6

npn. Ilco?;
2n. IToAAai' re ai vvdTraoai eTnorrjp.ai 8oovoiv
elvai Kal dvop.oiol rives avra>v dAArjAai?, ei 8e
14 Kal evavrlai Tr7j ylyvovrai rives, dpa dios dv
Treiabfi.cda Badham Treipaabfieda T.
B
1

?reip6/ie0a
:

210
PHILEBUS
will concede, or will endure to hear you say, that
some pleasures are good and others bad ?
soc. But you will concede that they are unlike
and in some instances opposed to each other.
pro. Not in so far as they are pleasures.
soc. Here we are again at the same old argument,
Protarchus, and we shall presently assert that one
pleasure is not dilferent from another, but all pleas
ures are alike, and the examples just cited do not
alfect us at all, but we shall behave and talk just
like the most worthless and inexperienced reasoners'.
pro. In what way do you mean ?
soc Why, if I have the face to imitate you and
to defend myself by saying that the utterly unlike
is most completely like that which is most utterly
unlike it, I can say the same things you said, and
we shall prove ourselves to be excessively inexperi
enced, and our argument will be shipwrecked and
lost. Let us, then, back her out, and perhaps if we
start fair again we may come to an agreement.
pro. How ? Tell me.
soc. Assume, Protarchus, that I am questioned in
turn by you.
pro. What question do I ask ?
soc. Whether wisdom and knowledge and intellect
and all the things which I said at lirst were good,
when you asked me what is good, will not have the
same fate as this argument of yours.
pro. How is that ?
soc. It will appear that the forms of knowledge
collectively are many and some of them are unlike
each other ; but if some of them turn out to be
actually opposites, should I be fit to engage in
2
to iixm Ven. 189 : averes BT.
21 1
PLATO

elrjv tov 8iaXeyeodai vvv, el cf>ofirjdels tovto


avro p.rjSep.lavdvop.oiov cf>alrjv emorrjp.rjv em-
arrqpvrj ylyveodai, KdTreid' rjpuv ovtcos 6 Xoyos
cooTrep p.vdos clTro\6p.eyos oi^oir0, avrol 8e ocot^ol-
p.eda em tivos dXoylas;
npn. 'AAA' ov p.rjv Sel tovto yeveodai, TrXrjv
tov ocodrjvai. to ye p.rjv p.oi loov tov oov re
Kal ep.ov Xoyov dpeoKei, TroXXal p.ev rjSoval Kal
dvop.oioi yiyveodcov,1 TroXXal 8i imorrjp.ai Kal
Sidcf>opoi.
B 2n. Trjv tolvvv Siacf>op6rrjra, co Ylpcorapxe,
tov dyadov tov t ep.ov Kal tov oov p.rj dTro-
KpvTrrop,evoi, Kararidevres 8e Cis to p,eoov, toX-
p.cop,ev, dv eXeyx6p,evoi prqvvocooi, Trorepov
Tr7j
rjSovrjv rayadov 8el Xeyeiv rj cf>p6vrjou> 1j ri rDVtW
aXXol elvai. vvv yap ov 8rjTrov Tr730? ye avro
tovto2 cf>iXoveiKovp.ev , ottos dyco3 rldep.ai, tovt'
eorai to. viKcovra, T)
ravd' a ov, to> 8' dXrjdeorarcp
Sei Ttou ovp.p.axelv rjp.as dp.^co.
npn. Ael yap ovv.
5.2n. Tovrov tolvvv tov Xoyov eri p.aXXov
C Si' op.oXoylas )3efiaicoocop.eda.
npn. Tov ttolov Srj;
sn. Tov ttdoi Trapexovra dvdpdmois Trpdyp.ara
eKovol re Kal oKovoiv evlois Kal evlore.
npn. A eye oacf>eorepov .
2n. Tov vvv
ST)

TrapaTreoovra Xeyoj, cf>voei ttcos


ta
Sr)

Trecf>vKora davp.aor6v. yap ev TroAAd


elvai Kal to ev TroAAd davp.aorov Xexdev, /cai
pq8iov dp.cf>io^rjrrjoai tco tovtcov oTrorepovovv
ridep,evcu.
yiyviaQwv\ yiyveadov BT.
1

212
PHILEBUS

if,
dialectics now through fear of just that, should

I
say that no form of knowledge unlike any other,

is
and then, as a consequence, our argument should
vanish and be lost, like a tale that told, and we

is
ourselves should be saved by clinging to some irra
tional notion
?
pro. No, that must never be, except the part
about our being saved.. However, like the equal

I
treatment of your doctrine and mine. Let us grant
that pleasures are many and unlike and that the
forms of knowledge are many and dilferent.
soc. With no concealment, then, Protarchus, of
the dilference between my good and yours, but with
fair and open acknowledgement of it, let us be bold
and see perchance on examination they will tell
if

us whether we should say that pleasure the good,

is
or wisdom, or some other third principle. For surely
the object of our present controversy not to gain is
the victory for my assertions or yours, but both of
us must fight for the most perfect truth.
pro. Yes, we must.
soc. Then let us establish this principle still more
firmly by means of an agreement.
pro. What principle
?

soc. The principle which gives trouble to all men,


to some of them sometimes against their will.
pro. Speak more plainly.
soc. mean the principle which came in our way
I

just now its nature quite marvellous. For the


is
;

assertions that one is many and many are one are


marvellous, and easy to dispute with anyone
is
it

who makes either of them.

toOto corr. Coisl. tovto BT.


2

8
:

ayw] &yw 'yw T.


B
3

&
:

213
PLATO
npn. 'Ap' ovv Xeyeis, orav ris ep.e cf>fj llpcor-
D oipxov sva yeyovora cf>voei
ttoXiv ttoXXovs elvai
tovs ep.e Kal evavriovs dAAijAoi?, p.eyav Kal op.i-
Kpov TiOip.evos Kal fiapvv Kal Kovcf>ov tov avrov
Kal dXXa p.vpla;
2n. Si) p.ev, d> npcorapxe, elprjKas ra Se-
Srjp.evp.eva tcov davp.aorcov Trepl to ev Kal TroXXd,
ovyKexcoprjp.eva Se cos erios elTrelv vtto Trdvrow
rjSrj p.rj Selv tcov toiovtcov dTrreodai, TraiSapicoSij
Kal pdSia Kal otyo8pa tols Xoyois ep.Tr6Sia vtto-
Xap.fiavovro>v ylyveodai, eTrel p.rjSe ra roiaoe,
E orav tis 6wa.oroV ra p.eXrj re Kal dp.a p.eprj SieAcov
rco Xoycp, Travra ravra to ev eKelvo eivai S1-
op.oXoyrjodp.evos, eXeyxrj KarayeXcov ori repara
SirjvdyKaorai cf>dvai, to te ev co? TroAAa eori
Kal dTreipa, Kal ra TToAAd co? ev p.6vov.
npn. Su
Srj

Se HcoKpares, erepa Xeyeis,


Tr01a, co

a 111jTra1 ovyKexcoprjp.eva SeSrjp.evrai Trepl tov


avrov tovtov Xoyov;
15 sn. 'OTrorav, co Trai, to ev p,rj tcov yiyvop.evo>v
re Kal dTroXXvp.evcov ris ridrjrai, KaddTrep dprccos
rjp.els eiTrojiev. yap Kal to tolovtov
evravdol p.ev
ev, oTrep enrop.ev vvv 8rj, ovyKexcoprjrai to pvq
Selv eXeyxew orav Se tis eva dvdpomov emxelpfj
rldeodai Kal fiovv eva Kal to KaXov ev Kal to
dyadov ev, Trepl tovtcov to~>v evdScov Kal tcov
toiovtcov TroXXrj oTrovSrj p.era Siaipeoecos dp.cf>i-
rj

o^rrjois yiyverai.
npn.
II

co?;
2n. Ylpdrov rivas Sei roiavras elvai
el

p.ev
B

p.ovd8as vTroXap.fidveiv dXrjdcos ovoas' elra ttc,>s


aS ravras, p.lav eKaorrjv ovoav del rrjv avrrjv
211
PHILEBUS
pro. You mean when a person says that I, Prot-
archus, am by nature one and that there are also
many of me which are opposites of each other, assert
ing that I, the same Protarchus, am great and small
and heavy and light and countless other things ?
soc. Those wonders concerning the one and the
many which you have mentioned, Protarchus, are
common property, and almost everybody is agreed
that they ought to be disregarded because they are
childish and easy and great hindrances to specula
tion ; and this sort of thing also should be disregarded,
when a man in his discussion divides the members
and likewise the parts of anything, acknowledges
that they all collectively are that one thing, and
then mockingly refutes himself because he has been
compelled to declare miracles that the one is many
and infinite and the many only one.
pro. But what other wonders do you mean,
Socrates, in relation to this same principle, which
are not yet common property and generally acknow
ledged ?
soc. I mean, my boy, when a person postulates
unity which is not the unity of one of the things
which come into being and perish, as in the examples
we had just now. T'or in cases of a unity of that
sort, as I just said, it is agreed that refutation is
needless. But when the assertion is made that man
is one, or ox is one, or beauty is one, or the good is
one, the intense interest in these and similar unities
becomes disagreement and controversy.
pro. How is that ?
soc. The first question is whether we should be
lieve that such unities really exist ; the second, how
these unities, each of which is one, always the same,
215
PLATO

Kal p.rjre yeveoiv p.rjre


oXedpov TrpooSexop,evqv,
op.cos elvai /Je/JaidYara p.lav ravrrjv p.era Se
tout' ev tols yiyvop.evois av Kal dTrelpois eiVc
8ieoTraop,evrjv Kal TroAAd yeyovvlav dereov, eW

S1j
oXrjv avrfjv avrrjs ^copi'?, o Trdvrcov aovva-
rcorarov cf>alvoir' av, tovtov Kal ev dp.a ev evl
re Kal ttoXXois ylyveodai. ravr kori ra Trepi
ra roiavra ev Kal TroXXd, dXX' ovK eKelva, 10
Ylpcorapxe, aTrdorjs aTroplas aina p.rj KaXcos
op.oXoyrjdevra Kal evTroplas av1 KaXcos.
npn. xprj rovd' ij/ia?, co HcoKpares,
OvKovv
ev rip vvv Trpcorov oiaTrovrjoaodai

;
2n. 'O? yovv eyco ^airjv av.
npn. Kai Travras tolvvv rjp.as vTroXafie ovyxco-
pelv ooi rovooe ta roiaCra, fylXrjfiov

S'
locos
Kpariorov ev tco vvv eTrepcorcovra p.rj Kivelv eS
Keip.evov.
2n. Eiev Trodev ovv tis ravrrjs dprjrai
6.

TroXXrjs ovo-qs Kal Travrolas Trepl ta dp.^iofirj-


rovp.eva p.dxrjs; dp' evdev8e;
npn. Hodev;3
2n. cbap,ev ttov ravrov ev Kal TroXXd vtto Xoycov
yiyvop,eva Trepirpexeiv Trdvr'] Kad' eKaorov tcov
Xeyop.evcov aei Kal TrdXai Kal vvv. Kal tovto
ovre p.rj Travorjral Trore ovre rjparo vvv, dAA'
eori to tolovtov, cos ep.ol dmi.verai, tcov Xoycov
avrcov dddvarov tl Kal dyqpcov Trddos ev rjp.lv
8e Trpcorov avrov yevodp,evos e/cdorore tcov
6

vecov, rjodels cos riva oo^las evprjKcbs drjoavpov,


vcf>' rjSovrjs evdovoia re Kal Travra Kivel Xoyov
av av BT av bracketed by Badham.
1

(vBivSe Trudev assigned to Socrates BT.


2

216
PHILEBUS
and admitting neither generation nor destruction,
can nevertheless be permanently this one unity ; and
the third, how in the infinite number of things which
come into being this unity, whether we are to assume
that it is dispersed and has become many, or that
it is entirely separated from itself which would seem
to be the most impossible notion of all being the
same and one, is to be at the same time in one and
in many. These are the questions, Protarchus, about
this kind of one and many, not those others, which
cause the utmost perplexity, if ill solved, and are, if
well solved, of the greatest assistance.
pro. Then is it now, Socrates, our first duty to
thresh this matter out ?
soc. Yes, that is what I should say.
pro. You may assume, then, that we are all
willing to agree with you about that ; and perhaps
it is best not to ask Philebus any questions ; let
sleeping dogs he.
soc. Very well ; then where shall we begin this
great and vastly complicated battle about the matters
at issue ? Shall we start at this point ?
pro. At what point ?
soc. We say that one and many are identified by
reason, and always, both now and in the past, circulate
everywhere in every thought that is uttered. This
is no new thing and will never cease ; it is, in my
opinion, a quality within us which will never die or
grow old, and which belongs to reason itself as such.
And any young man, when he first has an inkling
of this, is delighted, thinking he has found a treasure
of wisdom ; his joy fills him with enthusiasm ; he joy
ously sets every possible argument in motion, some

217
PLATO

dop.evos, rore p.ev em ddrepa KvKXcov /cai ovp.cf>vpcov


els ev, tots 8e TrdXiv dveiXlrrcov /cai Siap.epl^cov,
els dTroplav avrov p,ev Trpcorov /cai p.dXiora Kara-
fiaXXcov, Sevrepov S' del rov ixop.evov, dvre ved>-
repos dvre dvre i^Ai cbv rvyxdvrj,
Trpeofivrepos
16 cf>eiS6p.evos ovre mvrpos ovre parjrp6s ovre dAAou
rd>v aKovovrcov ovSevos, oXlyov Se /cai rcov dXXo>v
cocov, ov p.ovov rcov dvdpcoTrcov, eTrel fiapfidpcov
ye ovSevos dv cf>eloairo, elTrep p.6vov epp.rjvea
Trodev e^oi.
npn. TAjo', co HcoKpares, opas rjp.cov ro
ovx
ttXr)dos, ori veoi Trdvres eop.ev, /cai ov cfaofiei p.rj
ooi p.era QiXrjjiov vvemdajp.eda, edv ij/ia? Aoi-
Sopfjs; op.cos Se p.avddvop.ev yap o Xeyeis el
tis rpoTros eori Kcu p.rjxavrj rrjv p.ev roiavrrjv
rapaxrjv rjp.lv eijco rov Xoyov evp.evcos Ttcos aTr-
B eXdelv, 686v Se riva /caAAi'co ravrrjs em rov Xoyov
dvevpelv, ov re Trpodvp.ov rovro /cai rjp.els ovv-
aKoXovdrjoop.ev els Svvap,iV ov yap op.iKpos 6
Trapd>v Xoyos, c3 Sco/cpare?.
2n. Ov yap ovv, co TralSes, co? cf>rjoiv vp.as
Trpooayopevcov OiArj/Jo?. ov p,r)v eori KaXXlcov
rjs

686s ovS' av yevoiro, eyco epaorrjs p,ev elp.i


del, TroXXdKis Se' p.e 1jSrj Siacf>vyovoa eprjp.ov /cai
dTropov Kareorrjoev .
npn. Tls avrrj; Xeyeodco p.ovov.
2n. "Hv SijAcooai p,ev ov Trdvv xaXeTr6v, xprj-
C

odai Se TrayxdXeTrov Travra yap doa rexvrjs


exop,eva dvqvpedrj1 mLTrore, Sid ravrrjs cf>avepd
yeyove. oKoTrei Se rjv Xeyco.
npn. Ae'ye p.ovov.
2n. Qecov p.ev els dvdpcoTrovs 86o1s, co? ye
218
PHILEBUS
times in one direction, rolling things up and kneading
them into one, and sometimes again unrolling and
dividing them ; he gets himself into a muddle first
and foremost, then anyone who happens to be near
him, whether he be younger or older or of his own
age ; he spares neither father nor mother nor any
other human being who can hear, and hardly even
the lower animals, for he would certainly not spare
a foreigner,1 if he could get an interpreter anywhere.
pro. Socrates, do you not see how many we are
and that we are all young men ? Are you not
afraid that we shall join with Philebus and attack
you, if you revile us ? However for we understand
your meaning if there is any way or means of
removing this confusion gently from our discussion
and finding some better road than this to bring us
towards the goal of our argument, kindly lead on,
and we will do our best to follow ; for our present
discussion, Socrates, is no trifling matter.
soc. No, it is not, boys, as Philebos culls you ;
and there certainly is no better road, nor can there
ever be, than that which I have always loved,
though it has often deserted me, leaving me lonely
and forlorn.
pro. What is the road ? Only tell us.
soc. One which is easy to point out, but very
dilficult to follow ; for through it all the inventions
of art have been brought to light. See ; this is
the road I mean.
pro. Go on ; what is it ?
soc. A gift of gods to men, as I believe, was
1
Apparently foreigners are considered among the lower
animals.
1
avTjvpe8q] dvevpedy B: olv evpedr) T.
219
PLATO

Kara^alverai ep.ol, Trodev eppl^rj Sia tivos


e'/c ded>v

Ylpop.rjdecos dp.a cf>avordrco tivI Trvpl, Kal oI p,ev


TraXawl, Kpelrroves r)p.d>v /cai eyyvrepco decov
olKovvres, ravrrjv $r)p.rjv TrapeSooav, cbs eras i(
p.ev /cai1 ttoXXcov ovtcov rcov del Xeyop.evcov
elvai, Trepas Se /cai dTreiplav ev avrols vp.cf>vrov

exovruw. Selv rjp.as tovto>v


ovv ovtco Sia/ce-
]) Koop.rjp.ivcov del p.lav lSeav Trepl Travros e'/caorore
dep,evovs ^rjrelv evprjoeiv yap evovoav
edv ovv
p,eraXdficop,ev , p.erd p,lav Svo, el ttcos eioi, ovco-
Trelv, el Se p.rf, rpels Tj riva dXXov dpidp.ov, Kal
rdv ev eKelvcov eKaorov ttoXiv cooavrcos, p,expnrep
av to Kar apxas ev p.rj ori
Kai TroAAa
ev Kai
dTreipd eori p.ovov I8rj tls, dXXd Kal oTrooa'
rTpr
Se tov dTrelpov I8eav Trpos to TrXrjdos p,rj Trpoo-
cf>epeiv Trplv av tis tov dpidp.6v avrov Travra KarlSrj
E tov p.erav tov dTrelpov re Kal tov eras" rore 8'
rjSrj to ev eKaorov ta>v Travrcov els to dTreipov
p.edevra xalpeiv eav. ol p.ev ovv deol, dTrep elTrov,
ovtcos rjp.iv TrapeSooav OKoTrelv /cai p.avddveiv
/cai SiSao/ceiv dXXrjXovs' ol Se vvv tov dvdpiLTrcov
17 oocf>ol ev p.ev, oTrcos av tu^coox, /cai TroXXd darrov
Kal fipa$vrepov ttoiovoi tov Scovtos, p.era Se to
ev aTreipa evdvs' to. Se p.eoa avrovs e/creuyei,
ols Sia/ce^co/norai to re SiaAe/Cri/cco? TrdXiv Kal
to epioriKcos rjp.ds Troieiodai Trpos d?iXrjXovs tovs
Xoyovs.
7. npn. Td /ieV ttcos, co Scu/cpare?, SoKo> oov
p.avddveiv, ta Se en oacf>eorepov Se'o/iai a Xeyeis
aKovoai.
2n. Sa^e? p,rjv, co Ylpcorapxe, eorlv ev tols
1
Kai T: Kai ik B.
220
PHILEBUS
tossed down from some divine source through the
agency of a Prometheus together with a gleaming
fire ; and the ancients, who were better than we
and lived nearer the gods, handed down the tradition
that all the things which are ever said to exist are
sprung from one and many and have inherent in
them the finite and the infinite. This being the way
in which these things are arranged, we must always
assume that there is in every case one idea of
everything and must look for it for we shall find
that it is there and if we get a grasp of this, we
must look next for two, if there be two, and if not,
for three or some other number ; and again we must
treat each of those units in the same way, until we
can see not only that the original unit is one and
many and infinite, but just how many it is. And
we must not apply the idea of infinite to plurality
until we have a view of its whole number between
infinity and one ; then, and not before, we may let
each unit of everything pass on unhindered into
infinity. The gods, then, as I said, handed down to
us this mode of investigating, learning, and teaching
one another ; but the wise men of the present day
make the one and the many too quickly or too
slowly, in haphazard fashion, and they put infinity
immediately after unity ; they disregard all that lies
between them, and this it is which distinguishes
between the dialectic and the disputatious methods
of discussion.
pro. I think I understand you in part, Socrates,
but I need a clearer statement of some things.
soc. Surely my meaning, Protarchus, is made clear

221
PLATO

ypdp.p.aoiv o Xeyco, Kal Xdp.fiave aino ev tovtols


B oioTrep Kai TreTralSevoai.
npn. Ylcos ;
2n. ct>covrj p.kv rjp.lv iori ttov p.Ca Sid rov oto-
p.aros lovoa, Kal aVeipo? av TrXrjdei, Trdvrcov re Kal
eKaorov.
npn. Ti p.rjv;
2n. Kal ovSev ye tovtcov eop.ev ttco
erepcp
ooif>ol, ovte on to aTreipov avrrjs lop.ev ovd' ori
to ev dAA' 6Vi Tr00"a t
eorl Kal ottolol, tovto eori
to ypap.p.ariKov eKaorov Troiovv rjp.cov.
npn. 'AXrjdeorara.
2n. Kai /xijv /cai to p.ovinKov o rvyxdvei ttolovv,
tout' Ictti rauroV.
npn. Ylcos;
C jn. Ocovij p.ev Ttou /cai to /ccit' eKelvrjv rfjv
rexvrjv eor} p.la ev avrfj.
npn. Ucos S' ov;
sn. Avo 8e dcop.ev fiapi> Kal ov, Kal rplrov
opiorovov. rj Trcos;
npn. Ovrcos.
2n. 'AAA' ovttco ocxf>os av elrjs rrjv p.ovoiKrjv
elSios ravra p.6va, p,rj 8e elochs cos y eTros enrelv
els ravra ovSevos agio? eoei.
npn. Ov yap ovv.
sn. 'AAA', co cf>lXe, eTreiSdv Xdfirjs tol 8iao-rrjp.ara
oTrooaeorl t6v dpidp.6v rrjs cf>covrjs ovrqros re
Trepi Kal fiapvrrjros , Kal oTrola, Kal tovs opovs
D rcov Siaorrjp.drcov , Kal ta e'/c tovtcov ooa o-u-
orrjp.ara yeyovev, a /canSovre? ol Trpoodev Trap-
eoooav rjp.lv tols eVo/ieVois e/ceiVoi? KaXelv avrd
PHILEBUS

in the letters of the alphabet, which you were taught


as a child ; so learn it from them.
pro. How ?
soc. Sound, which passes out through the mouth
of each and all of us, is one, and yet again it is
infinite in number.
pro. Yes, to be sure.
soc. And one of us is no wiser than the other
merely for knowing that it is infinite or that it is
one ; but that which makes each of us a grammarian
is the knowledge of the number and nature of
sounds.
pro. Very true.
soc. And it is this same knowledge which makes
the musician.
pro. How is that ?

soc. Sound is one in the art of music also, so far as


that art is concerned.
pro. Of course.
soc. And we may say that there are two sounds,
low and high, and a third, which is the intermediate,
may we not ?
pro. Yes.
soc. But knowledge of these facts would not sulfice
to make you a musician, although ignorance of them
would make you, if I may say so, quite worthless in
respect to music.
pro. Certainly.
soc. But, my friend, when you have grasped the
number and quality of the intervals of the voice in
respect to high and low pitch, and the limits of the
intervals, and all the combinations derived from them,
which the men of former times discovered and handed
down to us, their successors, with the traditional
223
PLATO

app.ovias, ev re rai? Kivqoeoiv av rov ocop.aros

8rj
erepa roiavra evovra Trddrj yiyvop.eva, a

Si
dpidp.cov p.erprjdevra Seiv av cf>aol pvdp.ovs /cai
p.erpa eTrovop.d^eiv, Kal a/ia ivvoeiv cLs ovrco
evos /cai ttoXXajv oKoTrelv' orav
Sei 'nepl ttolvtos
yap avrd1 re Xdfirjs ovrco, rore iyevov oocf>6s,
orav re dXXo rcov ovroJv ev2 oriovv ravrrj oKottov-
p,evos eXrjs, ovrcos ep.cf>pcov Trepl rovro yeyovas'
to dTreipov oe e/caorcov Kal ev eKaorois TrXrjdos
S'

aTreipov eKaorore Troiei rov cf>povelv Kal ovK


eXXoyip.ov ovS' evdpidp.ov, dr' ovK els dpidp.ov
ovSeva ev ovSevl TrcoTrore dmSovra.
npn. KaAAiora, Oi'Aij/Je, e/ioiye ra vvv
8.

c5

Xey6p.eva elprjKevai cf>alverai Sco/cparij?.


*I. Kai ip.ol ravrd ye avrd, dXXd ri

S1j
Trore
Trpos rjp.as Xoyos ovros vvv eiprjrai Kal rl Trore
6

fiovXojxevos
;

2n. 'Opdcos /ieWoi ravd' rjp.as, co Ylpcorapxe,


rjpcorrjKe Oi'Arj/Jo?.
npn. Hdvv Kal dTroKpivov ye avrco.
p.ev ovv,
sn. Apdoco ravra SieXdtbv ap.iKpov eri Trepi
avrcov rovrcov. cooTrep yap ev oriovv ei rls
more Xdfioi, rovrov, cos cf>ap.ev, ovK eTr aTrelpov
cpvoiv Sei fiXeTreiv evdvs dXX' eTtl riva apidp.ov,
ovrco Kal to evavrlov orav ris to aTreipov avayKa-
odfj Trpcorov Xap.fidveiv, p.rj eTrl to ev evdvs dAA'3
dpidp.6v av riva TrXrjdos eKaorov exovrd ri /cara-
voeiv, reXevrav re e'/c Trdvrow els ev. TrdXiv 8e ev
rois ypdp.p.aoi to vvv Xeyop.evov Xdficop.ev.

aura TG ravrd BT.


1

Wohlrab
tv ivrwv T.
B

bvrwv
2

Iv
:

dX\' Liebhold dXV iv' BT.


3

224
PHILEBUS
name of harmonies, and also the corresponding effects
in the movements of the body, which they say are
measured by numbers and must be called rhythms
and measures and they say that we must also
understand that every one and many should be
considered in this way when you have thus grasped
the facts, you have become a musician, and when by
considering it in this way you have obtained a grasp
of any other unity of all those which exist, you have
become wise in respect to that unity. But the
infinite number of individuals and the infinite number
in each of them makes you in every instance indefinite
in thought and of no account and not to be considered
among the wise, so long as you have never fixed your
eye upon any definite number in anything.
pro. I think, Philebus, that what Socrates has said
is excellent.
phi. So do I ; it is excellent in itself, but why
has he said it now to us, and what purpose is there
in it ?
woe. Proturclius, that is a very proper question
which Philebus has asked us.
pro. Certainly it is, so please answer it.
soc. I will, when I have said a little more on just
this subject. For if a person begins with some
unity or other, he must, as I was saying, not turn
immediately to infinity, but to some definite number ;
now just so, conversely, when he has to take the
infinite first, he must not turn immediately to the
one, but must think of some number which possesses
in each case some plurality, and must end by passing
from all to one. Let us revert to the letters of the
alphabet to illustrate this.

vol. in Q 225
PLATO
npn. Hcos;
sn.
'ETreiSij cf>covrjv dTreipov Karevorjoev elre
ti? 0eo? elre Kal delos dvdpunros, cos Xoyos ev
AlyvTrrcp (F)evd riva tovtov yeveodai Xeycov, os
Trpcoros ra cf>covrjevra iv rcp aTreipco Karevorjoev
ovx ev ovra dXXd TrXelco, Kal TraXiv erepa cf>covrjs
C p.ev oil, cf>doyyov 8e p.erexovrd tivos, dpidp.ov
Se twa Kal tovtcov elvai, rplrov Se elSos ypap.-
p.drcov 8ieorrjoaro ta vvv Xey6p,eva dcf>cova rjp.lv
to p.era rovro Snjpei ra re dcf>doyya Kal dcf>cova
p.expi evos eKaorov, Kal ra cf>covrjevra Kal ra
p,eoa Kara rov avrov rpoTrov, ecos dpidp.6v avrcov
Xaficov evl re eKaorco Kal vp.Traoi oroixelov
eTrcuv6p.aoe, Kadopcov Se cos ovSels rjp.cov ovS' av
evavro Kad' avro dvev Travrcov avrcov p.ddoi,
tovtov rov 8eop.6v av Xoyiodp.evos cos ovra eva Kal
D Trdvra ravra1 ev ttcos Troiovvra p.lav eTr' avrols cos
ovoav ypap.p.ariKr]v rexvrjv eTrecf>deyaro Trpooenrcov .

*I. Tavr' eri oacf>eorepov eKelvcov avrd ye


to avro
S'
cT>

Trpos dXXrjXa, Ylpcorapxe, ep.adov


p.oi rov Xoyov vvv re Kal opuKpov epurpoodev
eXXenrerai
.

2n. Mcov, cb Oi'Aij/Je, to t'l Trp6s eTros av ravr'


eorlv;
*i. Nai, tout' eoriv o TrdXai ^rjrovp.ev eycL re
Kal Ylpcorapxos.
2Xn. 'H p,r)v eTr avrco ye rj8rj yeyovores ^rjrelre,
TraAai;
E

co? cf>rjs,
*i. Ilco?;
rjv

Ap ov Trepl cfipovrjoecos Kal r)Sovrjs


9.

2n.
Xoyos, oTrorepov avrolv alpereov;
e

rjp.lv dpxrjs
6

travra ravra] Tvavra ra ravra ravra rrdvra T.


B
1

226
PHILEBUS
pro. How ?

soc. When some one, whether god or godlike man,


there is an Egyptian story that his name was
Theuth observed that sound was infinite, he was
the first to notice that the vowel sounds in that
infinity were not one, but many, and again that
there were other elements which were not vowels
but did have a sonant quality, and that these also
had a definite number ; and he distinguished a third
kind of letters which we now call mutes. Then he
divided the mutes until he distinguished each in
dividual one, and he treated the vowels and semi
vowels in the same way, until he knew the number
of them and gave to each and all the name of letters.
Perceiving, however, that none of us could learn
any one of them alone by itself without learning
them all, and considering that this was a common
bond which made them in a way all one, he assigned
to them all a single science and called it grammar.
phi. I understand that more clearly than the
earlier statement, Protarchus, so far as the reciprocal
relations of the one and the many are concerned,
but I still feel the same lack as a little while ago.
soc. Do you mean, Philebus, that you do not see
what this has to do with the question ?
phi. Yes ; that is what Protarchus and I have
been trying to discover for a long time.
soc. Really, have you been trying, as you say, for
a long time to discover it, when it was close to you
all the while ?
phi. How is that ?
soc. Was not our discussion from the beginning
about wisdom and pleasure and which of them is
preferable ?
227
PLATO

*I. Hcos yap ov;


2n. Kai p.rjv ev ye eKarepov avrolv elval cf>afxev.
*i. Yldvv jiev ovv.
2n. Tour' avro toIvvv rjf>ia.s o
Aoyo?
TrpooOev
GOTairei, ecmv ev
TrxD? /cai TvoAAa aurcuv eKarepov,
Kal Trcos p.rj S/neipa evdvs, dXXd rivd Trore apidp.6v
eKarepov ejlTrpoodev KeKrrjrai rov aTreipa avruiv1
eKaora yeyovevai;
npn. OvK els ye epcorrjp.a, co QlXrjfie,
cf>avXov
ovK oiS' ovriva rpoTrov KvKXco tto>s Trepiayaycov
rjp.as e/i/Je/JAij/ce ^coKparrjs. Kal oKoTrei orj,
Trorepos rjp.cov aTroKpivelrai to vvv epaircop.evov .
8rj

locos yeXolov to efie rod Xoyov SiaSo^ov Trav-


reXcos vTroordvra Sid to p.r] Svvaodai to vvv
epcorrjdev dTroKplvaodai ool TrdXiv tovto Trpoo-
rarrew yeXoiorepov olp.ai TtoXv to pvnoerepov
S'

r)p.cov Svvaodai. oKoTrei Srj, rl 8pdoojiev. ei'Sij


yap p.oi SoKei vvv epcordv rjSovrjs rjp.as HcoKpd-
rrjs, eir' eoriv e'iVe p.rj, Kal oTrooa coti Kal oVoicr
rrjs r av cf>povrjoecos Trepi Kara raura cooavrcos .
sn. 'AXrjdeorara Xeyeis, Tral KaAAi'oir p.rj
ai

yap 8vvdp.evoi tovto Kara Travros evos Kal op.olov


Kal ravrov 8pav Kal rov evavrlov, d>s TrapeXdcov
6

Xoyos ep.rjvvoev, ovSels els ov8ev ovoevos av


rjp.cov ovSeTrore yevoiro dios.
npn.
S^eSdv eoiKev ovtcos, HcoKpares, exeiv.
d>

dXXd KaXov p.ev to vp.Travra yiyvcooKeiv tco


eivai ttXovs SoKel p.rj Xav-
S'

ococf>povi, Sevrepos
ddveiv avrov avrov. ri tovto elprjrai rd
8rj

p.oi
vvv, eyco ooi cf>paoco. ov rrjvoe rjfxlv rrjv ovv-
ovolav, HcoKpares, eTreocoKas Trdoi Kal oeavrov
c3

avrov T: avrbv B.
1

228
PHILEBUS
phi. Yes, of course.
soc. And surely we say that each of them is one.
phi. Certainly.
soc. This, then, is precisely the question which
the previous discussion puts to us : How is each of
them one and many, and how is it that they are not
immediately infinite, but each possesses a definite
number, before the individual phenomena become
infinite ?
pro. Philebus, somehow or other Socrates has led
us round and plunged us into a serious question.
Consider which of us shall answer it. Perhaps it is
ridiculous that I, after taking your place in entire
charge of the argument, should ask you to come back
and answer this question because I cannot do so,
but I think it would be still more ridiculous if neither
of us could answer. Consider, then, what we are to
do. For I think Socrates is asking us whether there
are or are not kinds of pleasure, how many kinds
there are, and what their nature is, and the same of
wisdom.
soc. You are quite right, son of Callias ; for, as
our previous discussion showed, unless we can do
this in the case of every unity, every like, every
same, and their opposites, none of us can ever be of
any use in anything.
pro. That, Socrates, seems pretty likely to be true.
However, it is splendid for the wise man to know
everything, but the next best thing, it seems, is not
to be ignorant of himself. I will tell you why I say
that at this moment. You, Socrates, have granted
to all of us this conversation and your co-operation

229
PLATO

Trpos to SieXeodai tl
tcov dvdpomlvcov Krrjp.drcov
dpiorov. OiAr^Sou yap elTrovros rjoovrjv Kal rep-
iftiv Kal ,xapav Kal Trdvd' dTrdoa roiavr' eorl, ov
Trpos avra a.vTelTres cl>s ov ravra dAA eKelva
D icmv, d TroXXdKis rjp.as avroi>s dvap.ip.vrjoKop,ev
eKovres, 6pdd>s 8po>vres, lv' ev p.vrjp.rj TrapaKelp,eva
eKarepa ftaoavl^rjrai. cf>fjs d>? eoiKe, ov
to Trpooprjdrjo6p.evov dpdcos dp.eivov rjSovrjs ye
dyadov elvai vovv, emo-rqp.rjv, ovveoiv, rexvtjv
Kal Trdvra av rd tovtcov vyyevrj, a1 KtdoB 'ai
Selv, dAA' 01/^1 eKelva. tovtcov orj p.er' dpuf>i-
ofirjrrjoecos eKarepcov Xexdivrcov rjp.els ooi p.era
TraiSid? rjTreiXrjoap.ev d>s ovK dcf>rjoop.ev oiKdoe oe
E Trplv av tovtcov rcov Xoycov Trepas IKovov yevqral
ti Siopiodevrcov. ov Se ovvexcoprjoas Kal eocoKas
cis ravd' rjp.lv oavrov, rjp.els Se

Sr)
Xeyop.ev,
KaddTrep ol TralSes, on tcov 6pdcos Sodevrcov
acf>aipeois ovK eorr Travoai rov rpoTrov
ST)

rjp.lv
dTravrd>v tovtov em rd vvv Xeyop.eva.
sn. TiVa Xeyeis;
20 npn. Ei? dTroplav ep.fidXXcov Kal dvepcorcov cov
pvq Svvalp,ed av iKavrjv dTroKpioiv ev to> Trapovri
SiSovai ooi. p.rj yap olcop.eda reXos rjp.lv elvai
vvv rrjv
el

rd>v ttovta>v rjp.cov dTroplav, dAA' opav


rovd' rjp.els dSvvarovp.ev, ool 8paoreov vTreoxov
Tr/36? ravra
Srj

yap. fiovXevov avros Trorepov


rjSovrjs elSrj ooi Kal imorrjp.rjs Siaipereov Kal
r)

eareov, Kad' riva rpoTrov ol6s r


el

Trrj erepov
Kal fiovXei dXXcos rd vvv dp.cf>ioftrj-
el

8rjXd>oal ttcos
rovp.eva Trap' rjp.lv.
Aeivov tolvvv eri TrpooooKav ovoev
B

2Xi. p,ev
ei tov ep.e, eTreiorj tovu ovtcos enres' to yap
230
PHILEBUS
for the purpose of determining what is the best of
human possessions. For when Philebus said it was
pleasure and gaiety and enjoyment and all that sort
of thing, you objected and said it was not those
things, but another sort, and we very properly keep
reminding ourselves voluntarily of this, in order that
both claims may be present in our memory for ex
amination. You, as it appears, assert that the good
which is rightly to be called better than pleasure is
mind, knowledge, intelligence, art, and all their kin ;
you say we ought to acquire these, not that other
sort. When those two claims were made and an
argument arose, we playfully threatened that we
would not let you go home until the discussion was
brought to some satisfactory conclusion. You agreed
and put yourself at our disposal for that purpose.
Now, we say that, as children put it, you cannot take
back a gift once fairly given. So cease this way of
meeting all that we say.
soc. What way do you moan ?
pro. I mean puzzling us and asking questions to
which we cannot at the moment give a satisfactory
answer. Let us not imagine that the end of our
present discussion is a mere puzzling of us all, but
if we cannot answer, you must do so ; for you gave
us a promise. Consider, therefore, whether you
yourself must distinguish the kinds of pleasure and
knowledge or will let that go, in case you are able
and willing to make clear in some other way the
matters now at issue among us.
soc. I need no longer anticipate anything terrible,
"
since you put it in that way ; for the words in

1
ft Ven. 189: om. BT. 2
5ec rQl>] Sclrov BT.
231
PLATO

el fiovXei prjdev Xvei Trdvra cf>6fiov eKaorcov Trepi.


Trpos Se av tovtois1 p.vrjp,rjv rivd SoKel ris p.oi
SeSco/ceVai decov rjplv.
npn. II co? Kal tlvcov;

Srj
10. 2n. Koycov Trori tlvcov TrdXai aKovoas
ovap Kal eyprjyopcos vvv re rjSovrjs
evvod) Trepl
r)

Kal cf>povrjoecos, cos oi8erepov avrolv eorl rdyadov,


dXX' aAAo ti rplrov,
erepov p.ev tovtodv, ap,eivov
Se dp.cf>olv. Kolltoi rovro ye av2 evapycos rjpuv
C

cfxlvfj vvv, drr^AAa/Crai p.ev rjSovrj rod viKav to


yap dyad6v ovK av en ravrov avrfj ylyvoiro.

rj
ttcos;
npn. Ovrcos.
2n. Tcov Se ye els rrjv Sialpeoiv elSd>v rjSovrjs
ovSev eri TrpooSerjo6p,eda /car' ep.rjv 86av. Trpo'Cov
en
S'

oacf>eorepov 8elei.
npn. KaAAior' elTrcbv ovrco Kal SiaTrepaive.
2n. S/itVp' drra rolvvv epnrpoodev eri Siop.oXo-
yrjocop,eda .

npn. Ta Trola;
sn. Ttjv rdyadov p.olpav Trorepov dvdyKrj re-
D Xeov p,rj reXeov elvai,
rj

npn. Wdvrow SrjTrov reXecorarov, d> Y,d>Kpares


.

2n. Ti 8e; iKavov rdyadov;


npn. Ilo>? yap ov; Kal Trdvrcov ye els tovto
Siacf>epeiv rd>v ovrcov.
TdSe ye p.rjv, d>s olp.ai, Trepl avrov dvay-
2n.
Kaiorarov elvai Xeyeiv, co? Trav to yiyvcooKov avro
drjpevei Kal ecbieral fiovXop.evov eXelv Kal Trepl

tovtois av roh avroh T.


B

aD
1

:
:

Kahoi rof t6 ye in Badham Kal towvto ye Kai


B
2

&v
:
:

tol ovta> ye av in margin B2 Kairoi toCto iav T.


:

232
PHILEBUS
"
case you are willing relieve me of all fear. And
besides, I think some god has given me a vague
recollection.
pro. How is that, and what is the recollection
about ?

soc. I
remember now having heard long ago in a
dream, or perhaps when I was awake, some talk
about pleasure and wisdom to the elfect that neither
of the two is the good, but some third thing, dilferent
from them and better than both. However, if this
be now clearly proved to us, pleasure is deprived of
victory ; for the good would no longer be identical
with it. Is not that true ?
pro. is. It
soc. And we shall have, in my opinion, no longer
any need of distinguishing the kinds of pleasure.
But the progress of the discussion will make that still
clearer.
mo. Kxccllent Just go on as you have begun.
!

soc. First, then, let us agree on some further small


points.
pro. What are they ?
soc. Is the nature of the good necessarily perfect
or imperfect ?
pro. The most perfect of all things, surely,
Socrates.
soc. Well, and is the good sulficient ?
pro. Of course ; so that it surpasses all other
things in sufliciency.
soc. And nothing, I should say, is more certain
about it than that every intelligent being pursues it,
desires it, wishes to catch and get possession of it,

i>33
PLATO

avro1 Krrjoaodai, Kal rcov aXXcov ov8ev ^povrl^ei


ttXtjv td>v d'noreXovp.evcov ap.a dyadols.
npn. OvK eori tovtols dvrenrelv,

Sij
2n. ~LKoTrcop.ev Kal Kplvcop.ev tov re rjSovrjs
Kal tov cf>povrjoecos /Ji'ov I86vres xcopls.
npn. Ylcos enres;
sn. Mrjre ev rrjs rjSovrjs ivearco cf>p6vrjois
p.rjr ev tTjs
^povrjoecos rjSovq.
to> Sel yap,
eiVep Trorepov avrcov eorl rdyadov, p.rjoev p.rjSev6s
eri TrpooSelodai' oeop.evov

S'
av cf>avfj Trorepov,
ovK eori ttov tovt' etl to ovtcos rjp.1v dyadov .
npn. Ilai? yap av;
2n. OvKovv ev ool Treipcop,eda fiaoavl^ovres
ravra;
npn. Ildvv p.ev ovv.
2n. 'ATroKplvov Srj.
npn. A eye.
Aeoi'2 av, Ylpoirapxe, ov L,rjv
2n. tov filov
aTravra rjS6p,evos rjSovds tcls /ieyiora?;
npn. Ti ou;
S'

2n. TAp' ovv eVi tivos av ooi Trpoooelv rjyolo,


tovt
el

e^ei? TravreXcos;
npn. Oi5Sa/iok.
2n. "Opa 8rj, tov cf>povelv Kal tov voelv Kal
Xoyl^eodai ta 8eovra, Kal ooa tovtcov dSeXcf>d,
p.cov p.rj 8eoi av3 ri;
npn. Kai ri; Trdvra yap e'^oi/i' av ttov to
xalpeiv excov.
2n. OvKovv ovtco ^ajv del p,ev Sia /Si'ou rai?
/ieyiarai? rjoovals xaipol's av>
avrb] aiirb BT. 5e'ijai BT vulg.
1

Wfol'] Se^aio
:

5^oi' &v Klitsch ii.rjdi bpav BT.


3

/i?)
:

234
PHILEBUS
and has no interest in anything in which the good is
not included.
pro. There is no denying that.
soc. Let us, then, look at the life of pleasure and
the life of wisdom separately and consider and judge
them.
pro. How do you mean ?
soc. Let there be no wisdom in the life of pleasure
and no pleasure in the life of wisdom. For if either
of them is the good, it cannot have need of anything
else, and if either be found to need anything, we can
no longer regard it as our true good.
pro. No, of course not.
soc. Shall we then undertake to test them through
you ?
pro. By all means.
soc. Then answer.
pro. Ask.
soc. Would you, Protarchus, be willing to live
your whole life in the enjoyment of the greatest
pleasures ?
pro. Of course I should.
soc. Would you think you needed anything
further, if you were in complete possession of that
enjoyment ?
pro. Certainly not.
soc. But consider whether you would not have
some need of wisdom and intelligence and power of
calculating your wants and the like.
pro. Why should I ? If I have enjoyment, I have
everything.
soc. Then living thus you would enjoy the greatest
pleasures all your life ?

235
PLATO
npn. li o ov;
Now Se ye Kal pwqprqv Kal iTrurrrjp.rjv /cai
Soav /it) KeKrrjjievos dXrjdrj, Trpcorov p.ev tovto
avro, el ^ai'pei? rj p.r] ^aipei?, dvdyKrj SrjTrov oe
dyvoelv, Kevov ye 6Vra Trdarjs cf>povrjoecos ;
npn. 'Avay/cij.
C 2n. Kai /irjv d>oavrcos p.vrjp.rjv p.rj KeKrrjp.evov
Srj

dvdyKrj ttov p.rjS' 6Vi Trore exaipes p,ep.vrjodai,


rrjs tco Trapaxprjp.a rjSovrjs Trpoo-nnrrova-qs
t'

ev
av

S'
p.rj8' rjvrivovv pwqp.rjv vTrop.eveiv 86av
p.rj KeKrrjpievov dXrjdrj p.rj Sodeiv ^aipeiv ^ai'-
povra, Xoyiop.ov Se orepop.evov p.rj8' els tov
eVeira xpovov xaiprjoeis 8vvarov elvai Xoyl-
ea0ai, Se oi5/c dvdpcoTrov jilov, dXXd tlvos
TrXevp.ovos td>v daXdrria p.er' dorpetvcov
0oa
r)

e'cri eori ravra,


D

ep.ifivxd ocop.drcov. Trapa

r)
ravra exop.ev dXXios ttcos Siavorjdrjvai
;
npn. Kai
ttcos;
2n. TAp' ovv alperos rjp.lv /Ji'o? toiovtos;
6

npn. Ei? dcf>aolav TravraTraol p.e,


c5

HcoKpares,
ovtos Xoyos ep.fiefiXrjKe ta iw.
6

2n. MrjTrco tolvvv p.aXdaKi^cop.eda, tov Se tov


vov p.eraXafiovres av filov 'I8cop.ev.
npn. Tov1 ttolov
8rj

11. Ae'yei?;
2n. Ei ri? Se'an.' dv a# rjp.cov cf>povrjoiv
p.ev Kal vovv Kal eTriorrjp.rjv Kal p.vrjp.rjv Traoav
Trdvruov rjSovrjs Se p.erexcov p.rp,e
E

KeKrrjp.evos,
p.eya p.rfe opuKpov, p.rj8' ai5 XvTnqs, dXXd to
Trapdfnav dTradrjs Trdvru>v tcov tolovtcov.
npn. OvSerepos /Ji'o?, co Sco/cpare?, ep.oiye tov-
6

tcov alperos, ovS' dXXco p.rj ttote, o>s iyd>p.ai, cf>avfj.


T: om. B.
1

rt>v
236
PHILEBUS
pno. Yes ; why not ?
soc. But if you did not possess mind or memory
or knowledge or true opinion, in the first place, you
would not know whether you were enjoying your
pleasures or not. That must be true, since you are
utterly devoid of intellect, most it not ?
pro. Yes, it must.
soc. And likewise, if you had no memory you
could not even remember that you ever did enjoy
pleasure, and no recollection whatever of present
pleasure could remain with you ; if you had no true
opinion you could not think you were enjoying
pleasure at the time when you were enjoying it,
and if you were without power of calculation you
would not be able to calculate that you would enjoy
it in the future ; your life would not be that of a
man, but of a mollusc or some other shell-fish like
the oyster. Is that true, or can we imagine any other
result ?
pro. We certainly cannot.
soc. And can we choose such a life ?
pro. This argument, Socrates, has made me
utterly speechless for the present.
soc. Well, let us not give in yet. Let us take up
the life of mind and scrutinize that in turn.
pro. What sort of life do you mean ?
soc. I ask whether anyone would be willing to
live possessing wisdom and mind and knowledge and
perfect memory of all things, but having no share,
great or small, in pleasure, or in pain, for that matter,
but being utterly unalfected by everything of that sort.
pro. Neither of the two lives can ever appear
desirable to me, Socrates, or, I think, to anyone else.

237
PLATO

22 2Q. Tl S' 6
vvap.^orepos , co Ylpcorapxe , e
dp.cf>olv au/iiu^ei? Koivos yevop.evos;
npn. 'HS0vij? Xeyeis Kal vov Kal cbpovrjoecos ;
Qvto> Kal taiv ToIOVT<Hv Xeya> eycoye.1
npn. llas, tovtov ye alprjoerai Trpore-
pov rj 'Kelvcov 6Trorepovovv , Kal Trpos tovtols ovx
f / t v
0 /xl>, o 0 oU.
sn. Mavddvop,ev ovv o ri vvv rjp.lv eorl to
vp.fialvov ev tols Trapovoi Xoyois;
npn. Yldvv p.ev ovv, or i ye rpels p.ev
/Jioi Trpov-
B redrjoav, tolv 8volv S' ouSeVepo? iKavos ouSe
alperos ovre dvdpcoTrcov ovre ^cocov ovSevl.
2n. Mcov ovv ovK 1jSrj tovtcov ye Trepi SrjXov

rjv
cos oiSerepos avrcov elxe rdyadov; yap dv
iKavos Kal reXeos Kal Traoi cf>vrols Kal uJoi?
aiperos, oioTrep 8vvarov r)v ovrcos del Sid jilov
tis
dXXa fjpeW rjp.cov, Trapd cbvoiv dv
el

QfjV' Se
rrjv tov dXrjdcos

e
alperov eXdp./iavev aKcov
dyvolas tlvos dvdyKrjs ovK evoalp.ovos.
rj

npn. "Eoi/ce yovv ravd' ovrcos


e^eiv.
2n. 'ls p.ev tolvvv rrjv ye OiAT^Sou deov ov
G

Sei oiavoelodai ravrov Kal rdyadov, IKovo>s


elprjodal p.oi So/cei.
*I. Oi5Se yap o6s vovs, co HicoKpares, eori
6

rayadov, aXX' eei ttov ravra ey/cAij/iara.


2n. Ta^' dv, QlXrjjie, o
cb

e/io?' 011 p,e\rroi


y

tov ye dXrjdiv6v d/ia Kal delov 01/iai vovv,


aXX dXXios ttcos exeiv. tcov p.ev ovv viKTyrqplcov
Trpos rov KoIvov filov ovK dp.cf>lo-Brjro> TrLO vTrkp
Sevrepelcov opav Kal oKoTrelv xprj
Srj

vov, tcov Se
rl
opdoop.ev. ra^a yap dv tov Koivov tovtov
D

Trepi
lywye om. BT: add. in marg. T.
1

238
PHILEBUS

soc. How about the combined life, Protarchus,


made up by a union of the two ?
pro. You mean a union of pleasure with mind or
wisdom ?
soc. Yes, I mean a union of such elements.
pro. Every one will prefer this life to either of
the two others yes, every single person without
exception.
soc. Then do we understand the consequences of
what we are now saying ?
pro. Certainly. Three lives have been proposed,
and of two of them neither is sulficient or desirable
for man or any other living being.
soc. Then is it not already clear that neither of
these two contained the good ? For if it did contain
the good, it would be sufficient and perfect, and
such as to be chosen by all living creatures which
would be able to live thus all their lives ; and if any
of us chose anything else, he would be choosing
contrary to the nature of .the truly desirable, not of
his own free will, but from ignorance or some un
fortunate necessity.
pro. That seems at any rate to be true.
soc. And so I think we have sufficiently proved
that Philebus's divinity is not to be considered
identical with the good.
phi. But neither is your " mind " the good,
Socrates ; it will be open to the same objections.
soc. My mind, perhaps, Philebus ; but not so, I
believe, the true mind, which is also divine ; that
is different. I do not as yet claim for mind the
victory over the combined life, but we must look
and see what is to be done about the second
place ; for each of us might perhaps put forward a
PLATO

filov alricpp.ed' dv eKarepos 6 p.ev tov vovv alriov,


6 S' rjSovrjv elvai, Kal ovtco to p.ev dyadov tovtcov
dp.cborepcov av elrj, ra^a S' av aiVioV
ovSerepov
ris VTro\ci^oc TrOTepov clvtcov gIvoli. tovtov &rj
Trepi Kal p.aXXov en Trpos QlXrjfiov Siapiaxolp.rjv
av cos ev tco p.iKrco tovtco filco, d n ttot eori
tovto filos oStos yeyovev alperos a/ia
o Xaficov 6
Kal dyad6s, ovx rjSovrj dXXd vovs tovtco vy-
yeveorepov Kal oLioiorepov ecm, Kal /cara tovtov
E tov Xoyov ovt av tcov Trpcoreicov oih" av tcov
Sevrepelcov rjSovfj p,erov dXrjdcos av Trore Xeyoiro,
Troppcorepco Se eori tcov rpirelcov, ei ti tco ip.co
vcp Sei moreveiv rjp.as ta vvv.
npn. 'AAAd p,rjv, co HcoKpares, ep.oiye SoKel
vvv p,ev rjSovrj noi TreTrrcoKevai KadaTrepei ttXtj-
yeioa vtto tcov vvv Xoycov tcov yap viKtjrtjplcov
ST)

23
Tre/3i p.axop,evq /ceirai. tov Se vovv, cos eoiKe,
XeKreov o>s ep.cf>povo>s ovK dvreTroieiro ro>v vlKrj-
toyap auro UTradev av. tcov Se

ST)
,rriplcov
Sevrepelcov oreprjdeloa rjSovrj TravraTraoiv av riva
Kal drip.iav oxolrj Trpos tcov avrrjs epaorcov ovSe
yap e/ceiVoi? er dv 6p.olcos cf>alvoiro KaXrj.
2n. Ti ovv ovK dp.eivov avrrjv e'dV rJSTj Kal
;

p.rjrrjv dKpifieorarrjv avrrj Trpoocf>epovra fidoavov


Kal ieXiyxovra XvTreiv
;

npn. OvSev Xeyeis, co HcoKpares.


2n. TAp' ori to dSwar0v elTrov, XvTrelv rjSovqv;
B

npn. Ov p.6vov ye, dXX' otl Kal dyvoels cos


ovSels Trcb oe rjp.cov p.edrjoei Trplv dv ei? reXos
eTreeXdrjs tovtcov tco Xoycp.
sn. Ba/Jai apa, co Upcorapxe, on>xvov p,ev

240
PHILEBUS
claim, one that mind is the cause of this combined
life, the other that pleasure is the cause ; and thus
neither of these two would be the good, but one or
the other of them might be regarded as the cause
of the good. On this point I might keep up the
fight all the more against Philebus and contend that
in this mixed life it is mind that is more akin and
more similar than pleasure to that, whatever it may
be, which makes it both desirable and good ; and
from this point of view pleasure could advance no
true claim to the first or even the second place. It
is farther behind than the third place, if my mind is
at all to be trusted at present.
pro. Certainly, Socrates, it seems to me that
pleasure has fought for the victory and has fallen
in this bout, knocked down by your words. And
we can only say, as it seems, that mind was wise
in not laying claim to the victory ; for it would
have mot with tho same fate. Now pleasure, if she
were to lose the second prize, would be deeply
humiliated in the eyes of her lovers ; for she would
no longer appear even to them so lovely as before.
soc. Well, then, is it not better to leave her now
and not to pain her by testing her to the utmost and
proving her in the wrong ?
pro. Nonsense, Socrates !
soc. Nonsense because I spoke of paining pleasure,
and that is impossible ?
pro. Not only that, but because you do not un
derstand that not one of us will let you go yet until
you have finished the argument about these matters.
soc. Whew, Protarchus ! Then we have a long

vol. in R 241
PLATO

Xoyov rov Xolttov, oxe86v Se oi5Se paSlov trdvv


ti vvv. Kal yap

8rj
cfxiiverai Selv dXXrjs p.rjxavrjs
eTrl ta Sevrepela vTrep vov Tropevop.evov, oiov
j3eXrj e%eiv erepa tcov ep.Trpoodev Xoyojv con Be
locos evia Kal ravrd.1 ovKovv xprj!
npn. Ylcos ydp ov;
12. sn. Trjv 8e ye dpxrjv o,vtov SievXafieiodai
ridep.evoi.
C

Treipcop,eda
npn.
8rj
Ylolav Xeyeis;
2n. Yldvra rd vvv ovra ev rco Travrl oixfj Sia-
p.aXXov 8', rpixfj.
el
Xdftcop.ev, ftovXei,
npn. Ka#' o ti, cf>pd^ois dv.
drra

8rj
2n. Adficop,ev rcov vvv Xoycov.
npn. Iloia;
2n. Tov deoveXeyop.ev Ttov to p,ev aTreipov
Selai rcov ovto>v, to 8e Trepas;
npn. Yldvv p.ev ovv.
ta
Srj

2n. Tovto>2 tcov el8cov Svo ridcop,eda,


to rpirov tovtolv ti
e

8e ap.cpolv ev ovp.puoyo-
eoiKev, yeXolos ti?
D

p,evov. elp.1 cbs eyco


dvdpcoTros3 Kar' el8rj Suora? Kal ovvapidpiovp,evos .

npn. Ti vns, coyade;


2n. Teraprov p.oi yevovs av ,npooSeiv cpalverai.
npn.
A

eye tlvos.
2n. Trjs vp.p.lecos tovto>v Trp6s dXXrjXa tT)v
aWlav dpa, Kal rldei p.oi Trpos rpiolv e/cetVoi?
reraprov rovro.
npn. Mcov ovv ool Kal Trepnrrov TrpooSerjoei
SiaKpioiv tivos 8vvap.evov;
2n. Ta^' av ov p.rjv olp.al ye ev rcp vvv eav
ravra BT. tovtw Stallbaum tovtwv BT.
1

tis &v9punros Badham tcs imras tis havws T.


B
3

242
PHILEBUS
discussion before us, and not an easy one, either,
this time. For in going ahead to fight mind's battle
for the second place, I think I need a new con
trivance other weapons, as it were, than those of
our previous discussion, though perhaps some of the
old ones will serve. Must I then go on ?
pro. Of course you must.
soc. Then let us try to be careful in making our
beginning.
pro. What kind of a beginning do you mean ?
soc. Let us divide all things that now exist in the
universe into two, or rather, if you please, three
classes.
pro. Please tell us on what principle you would
divide them.
soc. Let us take some of the subjects of our
present discussion.
pro. What subjects ?
soc. We said that God revealed in the universe
two elements, the infinite and the finite, did we not ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Let us, then, assume these as two of our
classes, and a third, made by combining these two.
But I cut a ridiculous figure, it seems, when I
attempt a division into classes and an enumeration.
pro. What do you mean, my friend ?
soc. I think we need a fourth class besides.
pro. Tell us what it is.
soc. Note the cause of the combination of those
two and assume that as the fourth in addition to the
previous three.
pro. And then will you not need a fifth, which has
the power of separation ?
soc. Perhaps ; but not at present, I think. How

243
PLATO

E Se ti 8erj, ovyyvcooei ttov p.oi ov p,eraSid>Kovri


1rejxTrrov }
nPn. Ti p.rfv;
rdv ra rpla

Srj
2n. ilpdirov p.ev rerrdpo>v
SieXop,evoi, tol Svo tovtcov Treipd>p,eda, TroXXd
eKarepov eoxiop.evov Kal Siecnraop.evov lS6vres,
els ev ttoXlv eKarepov ovvayayovres vorjoai Trfj

,
Trote rjv avtcOv ev Kal TroXXd eKclrepov.
npn. Ei p.oi oacf>eorepov eri Trepl avrcov elTroK,
rax" av eTrolpaqv.
24 2n. Aeyco rolvvv ra Svo a Trporldep.ai ravr'
elvai dTrep vvv 8rj, to p.ev dTreipov, to Se Trepas
exov otl 8k rpoTrov riva to dTreipov TroXXd eori,
Treipdoop.ai cf>pd^eiv to Se Trepas exov rjp.as
Trepip,everco.
npn. MeVei.
2n. S/ce'i/rai Srj. xaXeTrov p,ev yap Kal dp.cf>iofirj-
Tqoip.ov o KeXevco oe oKoTrelv, op.cos Se oKoTrei.
depp.oripov Kal ifivxporepov Trepi Trpcbrov dpa
Trore ri vorjoais dv, to p,aXXov re Kal
el

Trepas
r)

rjttov ev avrols oiKovvre2 tols yeveoiv, ecooTrep


dv ivoiKrjrov reXos ovK dv emrpeifialrrjv ylyve-
B

odai, yevop,evqs yap reXevrrjs Kal avrd> rereXev-


rrjKarov.
npn. 'AXrjdeorara Xeyeis.
2n. 'Ael re rco depp.orepcp Kal
Se ye, cf>ap.ev, ev
ifivxporepcp to p.aXXov re Kal rjrrov evi.
npn. Kai p.dXa.
2n. 'Aci tolvvv Aoyo? rjp.lv 0-qp.alvei tod'to>
6

ovre SrjTrov TravraTraoiv


S'

p.rj reXos exeiv dreXrj


dTrelpix> ylyveodov .
npn. Kai ocf>68pa ye, d> HcoKpares.
244
PHILEBUS

ever, if we do need a fifth, you will pardon me for


going after it.
pro. Of course.
soc. First, then, let us take three of the four and,
as we see that two of these are split up and scattered
each one into many, let us try, by collecting each
of them again into one, to learn how each of them
was both one and many.
pro. If you could tell me more clearly about
them, I might be able to follow you.
soc. I mean, then, that the two which I select
are the same which I mentioned before, the infinite
and the finite. I will try to show that the infinite
is, in a certain sense, many ; the finite can wait.
pro. Yes.
soc. Consider then. What I ask you to consider
is dilficult and debatable ; but consider it all the
same. In the first place, take hotter and colder
and see whether you can conceive any limit of them,
or whether the more and less which dwell in their
very nature do not, so long as they continue to
dwell therein, preclude the possibility of any end ;
for if there were any end of them, the more and less
would themselves be ended.
pro. Very true.
soc. But always, we alfirm, in the hotter and colder
there is the more and less.
pro. Certainly.
soc. Always, then, the argument shows that these
two have no end ; and being endless, they are of
course infinite.
pro. Most emphatically, Socrates.

fiiov BT : fUm> bracketed by Schanz.


1
TriliTvrov
2
oIkovvtc sec. Coisl. : oiKovv BT.
245
PLATO

2n. 'AAA' ev ye, co cf>lXe Ylpcorapxe, vTreXafies


C Kai dvep.vrjoas otl KoI to ocf>6Spa tovto, o oil vvv
ecf>deyco, Kal to ye r)pep.a rijv avrrjv Svvajxiv
ey^erov tcu p.a.XX6v re /cai t^ttov. ortov yap dv
evrjrov, ovK edrov elvai ttooov eKaorov, dAA'
del ocf>ooporepov rjovxairepov Kal rovvavrlov e/ca-
orais Trpdeoiv epnroiovvre to TrXeov Kal to eXarrov
aTrepyd^eodov, to Se ttooov dcf>avl^erov . o yap
eXexdrj vvv Srj, p.rj dcf>avloavre to ttooov, dXX'
edoavre at/ro re Kal to p.erpiov ev rrj tov p.aXXov
I) Kal rjrrov Kal ocf>6opa Kal rjpep.a eopa eyyeveodai,
avrd eppei raura e/c rrjs avrcov xcopas ev fj ivrjv.
ov yap eri depp.orepov ovoe ifivxporepov efnw1
dv Xafiovre to ttooov Trpoxcopel yap Kal ov
p.evei to re depp.orepov del Kal to ifivxporepov
cooavrcos, to Se ttooov eorrj Kal Trpoiov eTravoaro'
Kara
8tj

tovtov tov Xoyov dTreipov ylyvoir dv to


depp.orepov Kal tovvovtlov a/ia.
npn. Oaiverai yovv, d> SaJ/cpares" eori S',
oTrep eiTres, ov pdSia ravra ovveTreodai, to Se
ei? avdls re Kal avdis locos Xexdevra tov re epco-
E

r&vra Kal tov epuncop.evov iKavcos dv vp.cf>co-


vovvras aTrocf>rjvaiev
.

2n. 'AAA' ev p,ev Xeyeis, Kal Treipareov ovto>


Troielv. vvv p,evroi ddpei rrjs tov dTrelpov cf>voecos
tovto oe6p,eda orjp.elov, iva p.rj Trdvr eTre-
el

ioVre? p,rjKvvcop.ev.
npn. To Trolov orj Xeyeis;
2n. 'Ottoo' dv rjpuv cf>alvrjrai p.aXXov re Kal
t^ttov yiyvop,eva Kal to ocf>68pa Kal r)pep.a Se^d-
25 p,eva /cai to Xlav /cai ooa roiaura Trdvra, els to
Iijrriv rijt)v vulg.
B
T
1

ei'rT/v
:

246
PHILEBUS

soc. I am glad you responded, my dear Protarchus,


" "
and reminded me that the word emphatically
which you have just used, and the word
" "
gently
" " "
have the same force as more and less." For
wherever they are present, they do not allow any
definite quantity to exist ; they always introduce in
every instance a comparison more emphatic than
that which is quieter, or vice versa and thus they
create the relation of more and less, thereby doing
away with fixed quantity. For, as I said just now,
if they did not abolish quantity, but allowed it and
measure to make their appearance in the abode of
the more and less, the emphatically and gently,
those latter would be banished from their own proper
place. When once they had accepted definite
quantity, they would no longer be hotter or colder ;
for hotter and colder are always progressing and
never stationary ; but quantity is at rest and does
not progress. By this reasoning hotter and its
opposite are shown to be infinite.
pro. That appears to be the case, Socrates ; but,
as you said, these subjects are not easy to follow.
Perhaps, however, continued repetition might lead
to a satisfactory agreement between the questioner
and him who is questioned.
soc. That is a good suggestion, and I must try to
carry it out. However, to avoid waste of time in
discussing all the individual examples, see if we can
accept this as a designation of the infinite.
pro. Accept what ?
soc. All things which appear to us to become more
or less, or to admit of emphatic and gentle and
excessive and the like, are to be put in the class of

247
PLATO

rov dTrelpov yevos cbs els ev Sei Trdvra ravra


ridevai, Kara rov epnrpoodev Xoyov dv ecf>ap.ev
doa SUcnraorai Kal oieo~xj.orai ovvayayovras xprj-
vac Kara Svva.p.iv ixlav eVcaTj/xaiVeo^ai riva cf>voiv,
el piep.vrjoou. .
npn. Mep.vrjp.ai.
sn. OvKovv rd Se^o/ieva ravra, rovruov
p.rj
Se rd evavrla Trdvra Sex6p,eva, Trpuorov p,ev to
low Kai lo6rrjra, p.erd Se r6 loov r6 8iTrXdoiov
Kal Trav driTrep dv Trp6s dpidp.6v dpidp.6s r) p,erpov
B fj Trp6s p.erpov, ravra vp.Travra els ro Trepas
dTroXoyi^dp.evoi KaXuos dv SoKolp,ev 8pdv rovro.
or, cf>Jjs ;
r) ttcos
npn. KaAAiord ye, cb HcoKpares.
13. 2n. Eiev to Se rplrov r6 p.iKr6v IK rov-
roiv dp.cf>olv rlva lSeav cf>rjoop,ev exeiv;
npn. Soi/cai e/ioi cf>pdoeis, cos oi/iai.
2n. Qeos p,ev ovv, dvTrep ye ep.als eu^ol? eTnj-
Koos ylyvqral ris deuov.
npn. Kal oKoTrei.
Sr)

Eu'^ou
2n. YiKoTrcxi, Kal p.oi So/cei r1?, uo Ylpuorap,^e,
Srj

avrcov cf>lXos rjp.lv vvv yeyovevai.


npn. FIoo? Aeyeis rovro Kal rlvi reKpvrjplco xpfj
C

>

2n. Qpdouo SrjXov 6Vi. ov Se p.oi ovvaKo-


Xovdrjoov rip Adyco.
npn.
A

eye p.6vov.
ri
8rj

2n. Qepp.6repov ecf>deyy6p,eda vvv Trov


Kal ifivxp6repov. ydp;
rj

npn. Nai.
8rj

2n. Hp6odes Kal vyp6repov avrols


rjp6repov
Kal TrXeov Kal eXarrov Kal ddrrov Kal fipaSvrepov
Kal p.el^ov Kal op.iKp6repov Kal dTr6oa ev rco
248
PHILEBUS
the infinite as their unity, in accordance with what
we said a while ago, if you remember, that we ought
to collect all things that are scattered and split up
and impress upon them to the best of our ability the
seal of some single nature.
pro. I remember.
soc. And the things which do not admit of more
and less and the like, but do admit of all that is
opposed to, them first equality and the equal, then
the double, and anything which is a definite number
or measure in relation to such a number or measure
all these might properly be assigned to the class
of the finite. What do you say to that ?
pro. Excellent, Socrates.
soc. Well, what shall we say is the nature of the
third class, made by combining these two ?
pro. You will tell me, I fancy, by answering your
own question.
soc. Nay, a god will do so, if any god will give
ear to my prayers.
pro. Pray, then, and watch.
soc. I am watching ; and I think, Protarchus, one
of the gods has this moment been gracious unto me.
pro. What do you mean, and what evidence have
you ?
soc. I will tell you, of course. Just follow what
I say.
pro. Say on.
soc. We spoke just now of hotter and colder, did
we not ?
pro. Yes.
soc. Add to them drier and wetter, more and less,
quicker and slower, greater and smaller, and all that

249
PLATO
Trpoodev trjs to fiaXXov re /cai t^ttov Sex0p.evrjs
eride^ev els ev cf>voecos.
D npn. Trjs tov dTrelpov Xeyeis;
sn. Nai'. ovp.p.lyvv Se ye ei? avrrjv to p.era
ravra rrjv av tov1 Treparos yevvav.
npn. Yloiav;
2n. Hv /cai iw
Srj, 8eov rjp.as KaddTrep ttjv
tov dTrelpov ovvrjydyofxev els ev, ovtco Kal ttjv
tov TreparoelSovs ovvayayelv, ov ovvrjydyop.ev.
aXX' locos Kal vvv ravrov 8pdoei, el2 tovtcov
dpuf>0repcov ovvayop.evcov Karacf>avrjs KaKelvrj ye-
vqoerai.
npn. Ylolav Kal Trcos Xeyeis;
2n. Trjv tov loov Kal SnrXaolov, Kal orroorj
E Travel Trpos dXXrjXa ravavria Siacf>6pcos exovra,
ovp.p.erpa 8e Kal ovp.cf>cova evdeioa dpidp.ov dTr-
epyd^erai.
npn. Mavdavco, cpalvei ydp p.oi Xeyeiv, puyvvs
ravra yeveoeis rivds ecf>'
e/caorow atncov au/i/Jai-
veiv.
2n. 'Opdcos yap cf>alvop.ai.
npn. Aeye tolvvv.
sn. TAp' ovK ev p.ev vooois rj tovtcov 6pdrj
Koivcovla ttjv vyielas cf>voiv iyevvrjoev;
26 npn. YlavraTraoi /.iev ovv.
2n. 'Ev Se 6el Kal fiapel Kal raxel Kal fipaSel,
aTrelpois ovoiv, dp' ov ravra iyyiyvop.eva ravra
dp.a Trepas re dTreipydoaro Kal p.ovoiKrjv vp.Traoav
reXecorara vveorrqoaro ;
npn. KaAAiora ye.
2n. Kai jxrjv ev ye xeipicooi Kal Trvlyeoiv iy-
yev6p.eva3 to p.ev TroXv Xlav Kal dTreipov dcf>
250
PHILEBUS
we assigned before to the class which unites more
and less.
pro. You mean the class of the infinite ?
soc. Yes. Mix with that the second class, the
olfspring of the limit.
pro. What class do you mean ?
soc. The class of the finite, which we ought just
now to have reduced to unity, as we did that of the
infinite. We have not done that, but perhaps we
shall even now accomplish the same end, if these
two are both unified and then the third class is
revealed.
pro. What third class, and what do you mean ?
soc. The class of the equal and double and every
thing which puts an end to the dilferences between
opposites and makes them commensurable and
harmonious by the introduction of number.
pro. I understand. I think you mean that by
mixture of these elements certain results are pro
duced in each instance.
soc. Yes, you are right.
PRo. Go on.
soc. In cases of illness, does not the proper com
bination of these elements produce health ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And in the acute and the grave, the quick and
the slow, which are unlimited, the addition of these
same elements creates a limit and establishes the
whole art of music in all its perfection, does it not ?
pro. Excellent.
soc. And again in the case of cold and hot weather,
the introduction of these elements removes the excess
1
a0 rod Coisl. : aiVoO BT. 2
dpdae c el Vahlen : dpdaei BT.
3
iyyevbfieva B : zyyevoficvri TG.
251
PLATO

elXero, to Se ep.p.erpov Kal dp.a ovp.p.erpov


aTreipyaoaro .
npn. Ti p.rjv ;
2H. OvKoVv K TovTCUv cLpal r Kal oCFO. KoiXCL
B Travra rjalv yeyove, rd>v re d,nelpcov Kal rd>v
Trepas exovrcov ovp.p.ixdevrcov ;
npn. Ilco? S' ov;
2n. Kai aAAa ye

Srj
p.vpla emXelTrco Xeycov,
olov ued' vyielas KdXXos Kal loxvv, Kal ev ifivxals
av Trdp.TroXXa erepa Kal TrdyKaXa. vfipiv yap ttov
Kal vp.Traoav Trdvru>v Trovrjplav avrrj KariSovoa
deos, co KaXe Oi'Aij/Je, Trepas ovre rjSovd>v
rj

ovSev ovre TrXrjop.ovd>v evov ev avrols, vop.ov Kal


rdiv Trepas exovr'1 edero, Kal oil p,ev aTro-
Kvaloai cf>rjs2 avrrjv, eyco Se rovvavrlov aTroocooai
C

Aeyco. ool 8e, cb Ylpd>rapxe, ttcos cf>alverai;


npn. Kai p.dXa, HcoKpares, e/ioiye Kara vovv.
d>

rd p,ev rpla ravra elprjKa,


Srj

sn. OvKovv

el
vvvoels.
npn. 'AAA' olp.ai Karavoelv ev p,ev yap p.oi
SoKels to aTreipov Xeyeiv, ev Se Kal Sevrepov to
ev rols ouoi
,
Trepas rplrov Se ov ocf>68pa Karexco
rl fiovXei cf>pd^eiv.
sn. To yap TrXrjdos oe, davp.doie, eeTrXrje
d>

rrjs rov rplrov yeveoecos' Kalroi TroXXd ye Kal to


D

S'

dTreipov Trapeoxero yevrj, oucos eTno^payiodevra


rco rov p.aXXov KoI evavrlov yevei ev ecpavrj.
i,xovt B.
T
1

ixtvrwv
:

dTroKvaiaai Kidd. misc. Porson, p. 265 artokvols tcprjs BT.


2

cpijs
;

This goddess may be tllovaiKri (in which case iyyevonevq,


1

the reading of and G, would be preferable to eyyevSficva


T

above), not music in the restricted modern sense, but the


252
PHILEBUS
and indefiniteness and creates moderation and har
mony.
pro. Assuredly.
soc. And thence arise the seasons and all the
beauties of our world, by mixture of the infinite
with the finite ?
pro. Of course.
soc. There are countless other things which I
pass over, such as health, beauty, and strength of
the body and the many glorious beauties of the
soul. For this goddess,1 my fair Philebus, beholding
the violence and universal wickedness which pre
vailed, since there was no limit of pleasures or of
indulgence in them, established law and order, which
contain a limit. You say she did harm ; I say, on
the contrary, she brought salvation. What do you
think, Protarchus ?
pro. What you say, Socrates, pleases me greatly.
soc. I have spoken of these three classes, you
observe.
pro. Yes, I believe I understand ; 1 think you
mean that the infinite is one class and the finite is
another class among existing things ; but what you
wish to designate as the third class, I do not com
prehend very well.
soc. No, because the multitude which springs up
in the third class overpowers you ; and yet the
infinite also comprised many classes, nevertheless,
since they were sealed with the seal of the more
and less, they were seen to be of one class.
spirit of numbers and measure which underlies all music,
and all the beauties of the world ; or the goddess may be
mentioned here in reference (and opposition) to the goddess
Pleasure (12 b) ; she is the nameless deity who makes
Pleasure and all others conform to her rules.
258
PLATO
npn. 'AXrjdrj.
2n. Kal p.rjv to ye Trepas ovre TroXXd elxev,
ovt' eSvoKoXau'op,ev

rjv
d>s ovK ev cf>voei.
nvn. Ylcos ydp S.v

;
2n. OvSa^cos. dXXd rplrov cf>ddi p,e Xeyeiv,
tv tovto ridevra to tovtcov eKyovov dTrav, yeveoiv
els ovolav e/c rcov p.erd rov Treparos d'neipya-
op,evcov p.erpojv.
npn. "E/m0ov .
ti
S1j
2n. 'AAAd rpiol reraprov
E

14. Trpos
rore

S'
elvai yevos oKeTrreov Koivrj

ij
ecf>ap.ev
opa yap, ooi S0/m dvayKalov elvai
el

oKeifiis.
Trdvra rd yiyvop.eva Sia riva alrlav ylyveodai.
npn. "E/ioiye, ttcos ydp dv ^copi? tovtov
ylyvoiro
;

2n. OvKovv rov ttoiovvtos cf>vois ovSev TrXrjv


rj

dvopiari rrjs alrlas Siacf>epei, to Se ttoiovv /cai to


oXtlov 6pdcos dv eirj Xey6p,evov ev;
npn. 'Opdcos.
27 sn. Kal p.rjv to ye Troiovp.evov av Kal to yiyvo-
p.evov ov8ev ttXTjv 6v6p.ari, KaddTrep to vvv S^,
Siacf>epov evpTqoop.ev. ttcos;
r)

npn. Ovtcos.
2n. Ap' ovp rjyeirai p,ev to ttoiovv del Kara
cf>voiv, to Se Troiovp.evov eTraKoXovdel yiyvop.evov
eKelvcp
;

npn. Yldvv ye.


2n. AAAo apa /cai ov ravrov aina t eori Kai
to SovXevov els yeveoiv alrla.
npn. Tt p.rjv;

254
PHILEBUS
pro. True.
soc. And the finite, again, did not contain many
classes, nor were we disturbed about its natural unity.
pro. Of course not.
soc. No, not at all. And as to the third class,
understand that I mean every olfspring of these
two which comes into being as a result of the measures
created by the co-operation of the finite.
pro. I understand.
soc. But we said there was, in addition to three
classes, a fourth to be investigated. Let us do that
together. See whether you think that everything
which comes into being must necessarily come into
being through a cause.
pro. Yes, I do ; for how could it come into being
apart from a cause ?
soc. Does not the nature of that which makes or
creates dilfer only in name from the cause, and may
not the creative agent and the cause be properly
considered one ?
pro. Yes.
soc. And, again, we shall find that, on the same
principle, that which is made or created dilfers in
name only from that which comes into being, shall
we not ?
pro. We shall.
soc. And the creative agent always naturally leads,
and that which is created follows after it as it comes
into being ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Then the cause and that which is the servant
of the cause for the purpose of generation are not
the same.
pro. Of course not.
255
PLATO

2n. OvKovv ra p,ev yiyvop,eva Kal e cov ylyverai


Travra ra rpla Trapeoxero r)p.lv yevrj;
npn. Kai p.dXa.
To ravra Srjp.iovpyovv Ae-

Brj
B sn. Se Ttolvtci.
yop,ev reraprov, tt)v alrlav, d>s IKolvcos erepov
eKelvcov SeSrjXcop,evov

;
npn. "Erepov yap ovv.
2n. 'Opdajs p.r]v e'^ei' Sicopiop.evcov rcov rer-
rdpcov ivos eKaorov p.vrjp.rjs eveKa ecf>erjs avra
Karapidp.rjoaodai .
npn. Ti p.rjv
;

2n. Ylpcorov p,ev tolvvv dTrei,pov Xeyco, oevrepov Se


Trepas, eTreir eK tovtcov rplrov p.iKrrjv Kal yeyevrj-
p.evqv ovolav rrjv Se rrjs p.lecos alrlav Kal yeveoecos
rerdprrjv Xeycov apa p.rj TrXrjp.p.eXolrjv dv ti;
C

npn. Kai Ttcos;


2n. Oe'pe Srj, to p.era rovd' r)p.lv rls Xoyos,

6
Kai rl Trore fiovXrjdevres els ravra dcf>iK6p.eda

;
dp' ov roSe rjv; Sevrepela i^rjrovp.ev Trorepov
r)Sovrjs ylyvoir dv cf>povrjoecos .
ovx ovtcos rjv;
rj

npn. Ovtco p.kv ovv.


sn. TAp' ovv locos1 vvv, eTreiSrj ravra ovrco
8ieiXopieda, KdXXiov Kal rrjv Kploiv imreXe-
dv
Srj

oalp.eda Trpcorov Tripi Kal Sevrepov, Trepl cLv


to Trpcorov rjp.cf>iof}rjrrjoap.ev
;

npn. "locos.
2n. "Wi Srj,
viKcovra p.ev edep.iv ttov rov p.i-
D

rjv

Ktov filov r)8ovrjs re Kal cf>povrjoecos . ovrcos;


npn. 'Hv.
sn. OvKovv rovrov p,ev rov filov opcop.ev ttov
rls re eori Kai oTtolov yevovs;
i'irws Stallbaum BT.
1

ws
:

256
PH1LEBUS

soc. Did not the things which come into being


and the things out of which they come into being
furnish us all the three classes ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And that which produces all these, the cause,
we call the fourth, as it has been satisfactorily shown
to be distinct from the others ?
pro. Yes, it is distinct.
soc. It is, then, proper, now that we have dis
tinguished the four, to make sure that we remember
them separately by enumerating them in order.
pro. Yes, certainly.
soc. The first, then, I call infinite, the second
limit or finite, and the third something generated
by a mixture of these two. And should I be making
any mistake if I called the cause of this mixture and
creation the fourth ?
pro. Certainly not.
soc. Now what is the next step in our argument,
and what was our purpose in coming to the point
we have reached ? Was it not this ? We were
trying to find out whether the second place belonged
to pleasure or to wisdom, were we not ?
pro. Yes, we were.
soc. And may we not, perhaps, now that we have
finished with these points, be better able to come to
a decision about the first and second places, which
was the original subject of our discussion ?
pro. Perhaps.
soc. Well then ; we decided that the mixed life
of pleasure and wisdom was the victor, did we not ?
pro. Yes.
soc. And do we not see what kind of life this is,
and to what class it belongs ?

vol. in s 257
PLATO
npn. Hcos ydp ov;
sn. Kal p.epos y avrov cf>rjoop,ev elvai tov
rplrov, oi/iai, yevovs' ov yap Svolv tivolv eori
p.iKTov eKelvo* ciAAd ^vp.Trdvra)v Tcbv dTreCpcov
vtto tov Treparos SeSe p.evcov, coore opdcos 6 viKtj-
cf>6pos ovros /Ji'o? p.epos eKelvov ylyvoir av.
npn. 'Opdorara p.kv ovv.
E 15. 2n. Eiev rl Se 6 oos, co Oi'Aij/Je, rjSvs
Kal ap.iKros cov; ev tlvi yevei tcov elprjp,evcov
Xey6p.evos opdcos av ttote Xeyoiro; cSSe S' dTro-
Kpival p.oi Trplv dTrocf>rjvaodai.
*I. A eye p.6vov.
2n. 'Moovrj Kal Xvtttj Tre pas exer0v> r) tcov to
p.aXXov re Kal rjrrov Se^o/xeVcov eoroV;
*i. Nai, tcov to piaXXov, co SaWpares" ov yap
av rjSovrj ttdv ayadov rjv, el p.rj aTreipov ervyxave
Trecf>vK6s Kal TrXrjdei Kal raj p.aXXov.
28 2n. Oi5Se' y av, co Oi'Aij/Je, XvTrq Trav KaKov
cSot' d'AAo ti vcov ctKeTrreov r) rrjv tov aTreipov
cf>voiv, d>s Trapexeral ti p.epos rals rjSovals ayadov.
Srj

tovtco2 aoi tcov dTrepdvrcov ye yevovs eorcov*


cf>povrjoiv Se Kal eTriorrjp,rjv Kal vovv els rl ttots
tcov Trpoeiprjp,evcov, Ylpcorapxe re Kal Oi'Aij/Je,
d>

vvv devres ovK av doefioip.ev ov yap p.oi SoKel


;

opuKpos rjpuv elvai Klv8vvos Karopdcooaoi Kal


6

p,rj Trepl to vvv epcorcop.evov .

*i. Hep.vvveis yap, tov oeavrov


P>

d> Soo/cpare?,
deov.
2n. Kai yap ov, eYaipe, ttjv oavrov, to
S'

co

epcorcop.evov dp.cos rjpuv XeKreov.


ijiiKrhv iKelvoSchiitz /uikr6s iKeivos BT om. Jackson.
1

roirw Burnet: toutwv BT: tovto Ven. 189.


2

258
PHILEBUS
pro. Of course we do.
soc. We shall say that it belongs to the third class ;
for that class is not formed by mixture of any two
things, but of all the things which belong to the
infinite, bound by the finite ; and therefore this
victorious life would rightly be considered a part of
this class.
pro. Quite rightly.
soc. Well then, what of your life, Philebus, of
unmixed pleasure ? In which of the aforesaid classes
may it properly be said to belong ? But before you
tell me, please answer this question.
phi. Ask your question.
soc. Have pleasure and pain a limit, or are they
among the things which admit of more and less ?
phi. Yes, they are among those which admit of
the more,Socrates ; for pleasure would not be
absqlute good if it were not infinite in number and
degree.
soc. Nor would pain, Philebus, be absolute evil ;
so it is not the inlinite whicli supplies any element
of good in pleasure ; we must look for something
else. Well, I grant you that pleasure and pain are
in the class of the infinite ; but to which of the
aforesaid classes, Protarchus and Philebus, can we
now without irreverence assign wisdom, knowledge,
and mind ? I think we must find the right answer
to this question, for our danger is great if we
fail.
phi. Oh Socrates, you exalt your own god.
soc. And you your goddess, my friend. But the
question calls for an answer, all the same.

3
ye yivovs Iotwv Burnet : 7e,yec6s (cttw BT.
259
PLATO
npn. 'Opdcos roi Xeyei Ho>Kparrjs , co Oi'Aij/Je,
Kal atircp Treioreov.
*i. OvKovv vTrep ep.ov ov, Ylpcorapxe, Trporjprjoai
Xeyeiv ;
npn. Yldvv ye- vvv jievroi oxeS6v dTropco, Kal
8eop.al ye, co HcoKpares , avrov oe rjpuv yeveodai
Trpo^rjrrjv , Iva p.rj8ev r)p,els ooi Trepl rov aycovi-
orrjv eap.aprdvovres Trapd /ie'Aos cf>deycop.edd ri.
C 2n. Yleioreov, co Ylpcdrapy^e, ovSe yip ^aAenw
ovSev emrdrreis' dAA'
ovrcos oe eyco, KaddTrep
elTre QlXrjfios, oep.vvvcov ev tco Tral^eiv edopvfirjoa,
vovv Kal eTm.orrjp.tjv epop.evos oTrolovy evovs elev;
npn. YlavrdTraol ye, co TcoKpares.
2n. 'AAAd p.rjv paoiov. Trdvres yap ovp.cf>co-
vovoiv ol oocf>ol, eavrovs ovrcos oep.vvvovres , cos
vovs eorl fiamXevs rjp.lv ovpavov re Kal yrjs. Kal
locos ev Xeyovoi. 8id p.aKporepcov 8', el fiovXei,
rrjv oKeifiiv avrov rov yevovs Troirjocdp,eda.
D npn. Aey' ottcos fiovXei, p.rj8ev p.rjKos rjp.lv
vTroXoyi^op.evos, co HcoKpares, cos ovK aTrexdrjo6-
p.evos.
16. 2n. KaAai? elTres. dpcop.eda 8e Trcos cLSe
eTravepcorcovres .

npn. Hcos;
2n. Ylorepov, co Ylpd>rapxe, rd vp.Travra Kal
r6Se to KaXovp.evov oXov emrpoTreveiv cf>cop.ev

rrjv rov dXoyov Kal eiKrj Svvap.iv Kal to oTrrj


ervxev, T) rdvavrla, KaddTrep oi Trpoodev rjp.cov
eXeyov, vovv Kal cf>povrjolv riva davp.aorrjv ovv-
rdrrovoav SiaKvfiepvav ;
E npn. 0vSev rcov avrcov, co davp.doie HcoKpares.
o p.ev yap ov vvv Xeyeis, ovS ooiov elval p.oi
260
PHILEBUS
pro. Socrates is right, Philebus ; you ought to do
as he asks.
phi. Did you not, Protarchus, elect to reply in my
place ?
pro. Yes ; but now I am somewhat at a loss, and
I ask you, Socrates, to be our spokesman yourself,
that we may not select the wrong representative and
so say something improper.
soc. I
must do as you ask, Protarchus ; and it is
not difficult. But did I really, as Philebus said,
embarrass you by playfully exalting my god, when
I asked to what class mind and knowledge should
be assigned ?
pro. You certainly did, Socrates.
soc. Yet the answer is easy ; for all philosophers
agree whereby they really exalt themselves that
mind is king of heaven and earth. Perhaps they are
right. But let us, if you please, investigate the
question of its class more at length.
pho. Speak just as you like, Socrates. Do not
consider length, so far as we are concerned ; you
cannot bore us.
soc. Good. Then let us begin by asking a ques
tion.
pro. What is the question ?
soc. Shall we say, Protarchus, that all things and
this which is called the universe are governed by
an irrational and fortuitous power and mere chance,
or, on the contrary, as our forefathers said, are
ordered and directed by mind and a marvellous
wisdom ?
pro. The two points of view have nothing in
common, my wonderful Socrates. For what you
are now saying seems to me actually impious. But

2fil
PLATO

cf>alveraf to Se vovv Trdvra 8iaKoop,elv avrd


cf>dvai Kal rrjs oipecos tov Koop.ov Kal r)Xlov Kal
oeXrjvrjs Kal dorepcov Kal Trdcrqs trj? Trepi^opas
aijiov, Kal ovK dXXios eycoy' av Trore Trepl avrcbv
eiTroipu ovo av oogaoaip.i .

sn. BouAei 8rjra ti Kal r)p.els roi? ep.Trpoodev


6p.oXoyovp,evov vp.cf>rjocop,ev, cos ravd' ovrcos cYcl>
29 Kal p.rj p.6vov olcLp.eda Selv raXXorpia dvev Kivov-
vov Xeyeiv, dXXd Kal crvyKiv8vvevcop,ev Kal p.er-
excop,ev tov ifioyov, orav dvrjp oeivos cf>r}
ravra
p.r] ovtcos dXX' draKrcos e^eiv;
npn. Ylcos yap ovK dv fiovXolp.rjv ;
2n. S^ , tov imovra Trepl tovtcov vvv rjp.lv
Xoyov ddpec.
npn. A eye p.6vov.
2n. Ta rrjv tcov ocop.arcov cpvoiv dTrdvrcov
Trepl
tcov ^cpcov, Trvp Kal v8cop Kal Trvevp.a Kadopcop.iv
ttov Kai yrjv, KaddTrep ol xeip.a^6p,evol cf>aoiv,
1! evovra iv rfj ovoraoei.
npn. Kai p.dXa, ,xeip.a^6p.eda yap ovtcos vtt
dTroplas iv tols vvv Xoyois.
2n. orj, Trepl eKaorov tcov Trap' r)p.lv
Q>epe

Xafie to roiovSe.
npn. Ylolov ;
2n. "On op.iKpov ts tovtcov eKaorov Trap' r)p.lv
eveori Kal cf>avXov Kal ovoap.fj ovSap.d>s elXiKpives
ov Kal ttjv ovvap.iv ovK dlav rrjs cf>voecos exov
ev evl Se Xajicov Trepl Trdvrcov voei ravrov. olov
Trvp eori p.ev ttov Trap' rjp.lv, ecrri 8' ev tco Travri.
npn. Ti p.rjv ;
C sn. OvKovv op.iKpov p.ev ti to Trap' r)p.lv Kal
aodeves Kal cpavXov, to 8' ev tco Travrl TrXrjdei re
262
PHILEBUS
the assertion that mind orders all things is worthy
of the aspect of the world, of sun, moon, stars, and
. the whole revolving universe ; I can never say or
think any thing else about it.
soc. Do you, then, think we should assent to this
and agree in the doctrine of our predecessors, not
merely intending to repeat the words of others, with
no risk to ourselves, but ready to share with them in
the risk and the blame, if any clever man declares
that this world is not thus ordered, but is without
order ?
pro. Yes, of course I do.
soc. Then observe the argument that now comes
against us.
pro. Go on.
soc. We see the elements which belong to the
natures of all living beings, fire, water, air, and
earth or, as the storm-tossed mariners say, land
in sight in the constitution of the universe.
pro. Certainly ; and we are truly storm-tossed
in the puzzling cross-currents of this discussion.
soc. Well, here is a point for you to consider in
relation to each of these elements as it exists in us.
pro. What is the point ?
soc. Each element in us is small and poor and in
no way pure at all or endowed with the power which
is worthy of its nature. Take one example and
apply it to all. Fire, for instance, exists in us and
also in the universe.
pro. Of course.
soc. And that which is in us is small, weak, and
poor, but that which is in the universe is marvellous
263
PLATO

davp.aorov Kal KdXXei Kal Trdcrrj Svvdp,ei rfj Trepl


ro Trvp ovorj.
npn. Kai p.dXa dXrjdes o Xeyeis.
2n. Tc Se; Tpecj>TcXi Kal ylyveTCli c/c tovtov
Kal apxerai to tou ttovtos Trvp tov Trap'
vtto
rjpilv Trvpos, fj rovvavriov vTr' eKeivov ro r ip.ov Kal
to oov Kal to to>v dXXcov ^cbo>v aTravr' io^ei ravra;
npn. Touto p,ev ovS' dTroKploecos aiov epcords.
D 2n. '0pdcos, ravrd yap epels, oi/iai, Trepi re
trj? - roi? oooi? yij? tTJ? ivdaSe Kal rrjs ev to>
ttovrl, Kal

Srj
tcov aXXcov Trdvrcov oocov rjpcorrjoa
oXlyov epvnpoodev ovtcos aTroKpivei.
npn. Ti? yap aTroKpiv6p.evos dXXcos vyialvcov
dv Trore cf>avelrj;
2n. ocmo'oM', aAAd to tovto
S^eSov 01)S' /xera
e,nov. Travra yap rjp,els raura ra w

S1j
efjs
Xexdevra dp' ovK els ev ovyKelp.eva I86vtcs eTrcovo-
p.doap,ev ocop.a;
npn. Ti pvfjv;
8rj

sn. Tavrov Xafie Kal Trepl rouSe ov Koop.ov


E

Xeyop.ev tov1 avrov yap rpoTrov dv elrj ttov


ocop.a, ovvderov ov eK to>v avrcov.
npn. 'Opdorara Xeyeis.
2n. Ylorepov ovv eK tovtov tov ocop.aros oXcos
to Trap' rjplv ocop.a eK tov Trap' rjp.lv tovto
T)

8rj

rpecf>eral tc Kal ooa vvv Trepl avrcov eiTrop.ev


re Kal exei;
eZXrjcf>e
npn. Kai rovd' erepov, co HcoKpares, ovK
aiov epcorrjoecos .
30 sn. Ti Se; roSe apa aiov; ttcos epels;
rj

npn. Aeye to ttolov.


tov Badham 5id tov BT.
1

2(i4,
PHILEBUS
in quantity, beauty, and every power which belongs
to fire.
pro. What you say is very true.
soc. Well, is the fire of the universe nourished,
originated, and ruled by the fire within us, or, on
the contrary, does my fire, and yours, and that of
all living beings derive nourishment and all that
from the universal fire ?
pro. That question does not even deserve an
answer.
soc. True ; and you will, I fancy, say the same
of the earth which is in us living creatures and that
which is in the universe, and concerning all the
other elements about which I asked a moment ago
your answer will be the same.
pro. Yes. Who could answer otherwise without
being called a lunatic ?
soc. Nobody, I fancy. Now follow the next step.
When we see that all the aforesaid elements are
gathered together into a unit, do we not call
them a body ?
pro. Of course.
soc. Apply the same line of thought to that which
we call the universe. It would likewise be a body,
being composed of the same elements.
pro. Quite right.
soc. Does our body derive, obtain, and possess
from that body, or that body from ours, nourishment
and everything else that we mentioned just now ?
pro. That, Socrates, is another question not worth
asking.
soc. Well, is this next one worth asking ? What
will you say to it ?
pro. What is it ?

265
PLATO

2Xi. To Trap' r)puv ocbp.a dp' ov lf/vxr)v cfirjoop.ev

npn. ArjXov 6n cf>rjoop,ev .

2n. YloOev, ch cf>lXe Xafidv, elTrep


YlptoTapxe,
p.rj to ye rov Tr0ivros oo>p.a ep.ifivxov ov ervyxave,
ravrd ye exov tovtco KolI eri Travrrj KaXXlova;
npn. AijAov u>? ovoap.6dev dXXodev, d> SuWpare?.
2n. Oi5 yap Ttod SoKovp.ev ye, co Ylpchrapxe,
rd rerrapa eKelva, Kal dTreipov Kal Koivov
Trepas
B Kal to rrjs alrlas yevos ev dTraoi reraprov evov,
tovto ev p,ev roi? Trap' rjp.lv ifivxrjv re Trapexov
Kal ocop.aoKiavl ep.Troiovv Kal Trraloavros 0x6-
p.aros larpiKrjv Kal ev dXXois dXXa ovvridev Kal
aKovp.evov Trdoav Kal Travroiav oocf>iav eTriKaXei-
odai, rcov S' avro>v tovtcov ovtcov ev oXip re
ovpavco Kal Kara p.eydXa p.eprj, Kal Trpooeri KaXd>v
Kal elXiKpivcov, iv tovtois S' ovK dpa p.ep,rjxavrjodai
rrjv tcov KaXXlorcov Kal rip.icordrcov cf>voiv.
C npn. 'AAA' ovSap.cos tovto y av Xoyov exoi,
2n. OvKovv el p.rj tovto, /xer' eKelvov tov
Xoyov dv eTrop,evoi fieXriov Xeyoip.ev d>s eoriv,
a TroXXdKis elprjKap.ev, dTreipov re ev to> Travrl
ttoXv, Kal Trepas iKavov, Kal tis eTr' avrois ain'a
ov cf>avXrj, Koop.ovod re Kal owrarrovcta eviav-
tovs re Kai copa? Kal p.rjvas, oocf>ia Kal vovs Xeyo-
p.evrj Si/caidrar dv.
npn. Ai/caiorara Sijra.
2n. So^i'a p.rjv Kal vovs dvev ifivxrjs ovK dv
Trore yevoiodrjv.
npn. Oi) yap ovv.
2n. OvKovv ev p,ev tj\ tov Ai6s epels cf>voei
D jiaoiXiKr]v p.ev lfivxrjv, fiaoiXiKov Se vovv eyyl
266
PHILEBUS
soc. Shall we not say that our body has a soul ?
pro. Clearly we shall.
soc. Where did it get it, Protarchus, unless the
body of the universe had a soul, since that body has the
same elements as ours, only in every way superior ?
pro. Clearly it could get it from no other source.
soc. No ; for we surely do not believe, Protarchus,
that of those four elements, the finite, the infinite,
the combination, and the element of cause which
exists in all things, this last, which gives to our
bodies souls and the art of physical exercise and
medical treatment when the body is ill, and which
is in general a composing and healing power, is called
the sum of all wisdom, and yet, while these same
elements exist in the entire heaven and in great
parts thereof, and are, moreover, fair and pure, there
is no means of including among them that nature
which is the fairest and most precious of all.
pro. Certainly there would be no sense in that.
soc. Then if that is not the case, it would be
better to follow the other line of thought and say,
as we have often said, that there is in the universe
a plentiful infinite and a sulficient limit, and in
addition a by no means feeble cause which orders
and arranges years and seasons and months, and may
most justly be called wisdom and mind.
pro. Yes, most justly.
soc. Surely reason and mind could never come
into being without soul.
pho. No, never.
soc. Then in the nature of Zeus you would say
that a kingly soul and a kingly mind were implanted

owfiaaKiav Kustathius : irai/ta aKiav BT.


267
PLATO

yveodai Sia tT)v rrjs alrlas Svvap.iv, ev 8e dXXois


dXXa KaXd, Kad' o ri cf>lXov e/caoroi? Xeyeodai.
npn. MaAa ye.
2n. Tovtov tov Xoyov rjp.as ri

ST)
p.rj p.drrjv
86rjs, Ylpcorapxe, elprjKevai, dAA'
cL
fiev TrdXai dTroc^rjvap.evois cos del tov Ttovtos vovs
dpxei vp.p.axos eKelvois.
npn. "Eetti yap ovv.
2n. Tfjye ep.fj ^rjrrjoei Tre,nopiKcos aTrd-
8e
Kpioiv, ori vovs eorl yevovs1 tov Travrcov alrlov
E

Xexdevros tcov rerrdpcov cSv2 rjpuv ev tovto.3


exeis yap 8rjttov vvv rjp.cov t)8ij rrjv dTroKpiaiv.
npn. "Exco Kal p.dXa iKavcos' Kalroi p.e aTro-
Kpivdp.evos eXades.
2n. 'AvdTravXa yap, co Ylpcorapxe, rrjs oTrovSrjs
ylyverai evlore TraiSia.
rj

npn. KaAco?4 elTres.


2n. Novs SrjTrovf iralpe, ov iikv
d>

yevovs
31 eorl Kal rlva Trore Svvap.iv KeKrrjrai, a^eSw
emeiKcos rjp.lv rd vvv SeS^Acorai.
npn. Yldvv p.ev ovv.
2f1. Kai p.rjv rjSovrjs ye d>oavrcos TrdXai to
yevos ecf>dvq.
npn. Kai
p.dXa.
Kal ravra
Srj

2n. Mep.vcop,eda Trepl apuf>olv,


ori vovs p.ev a1ri'a? vyyevr)s Kal tovtov o^eSov
W
tov yevovs, rjSovrj 8e aTreipos re avrrj Kal tov
p.rjre apxrjv p.rjre p.eoa p.rjre reXos ev aurai dcf>'
iavrov exovros p.rjSe eovros ttotc yevovs.

yivovs Bekker: yevovs rrjs BT.


1

om. BT add. in marg. T.


2

Hi>

rcrriipoiv tovto bracketed by Badham.


3

.
.

268
PHILEBUS

through the power of the cause, and in other deities


other noble qualities from which they derive their
favourite epithets.
pro. Certainly.
soc. Now do not imagine, Protarchus, that this is
mere idle talk of mine ; it conlirms the utterances
of those who declared of old 1 that mind always rules
the universe.
pro. Yes, certainly.
soc. And to my question it has furnished the reply
that mind belongs to that one of our four classes
which was called the cause of all. Now, you see, you
have at last my answer.
pro. Yes, and a very sufficient one ; and yet you
answered without my knowing it.
soc. Yes, Protarchus, for sometimes a joke is a
restful change from serious talk.
pro. You are right.
soc. We have now, then, my friend, pretty clearly
shown to what class mind belongs and what power
it possesses.
pro. Certainly.
soc. And likewise the class of pleasure was made
clear some time ago.
pro. Yes, it was.
soc. Let us, then, remember concerning both of
them that mind was akin to cause and belonged
more or less to that class, and that pleasure was
itself infinite and belonged to the class which, in
and by itself, has not and never will have either
beginning or middle or end.
1
Anaxagoras and probably some now unknown precursors.
* KaXais T: Kai KaXws B.
6
vovs St)rtov Bekker: vvv 5r)rtou T: vvv 5rj vovs B.
269
PLATO

B npn. Mep.vrjoop.eda, ttcos yap ov;


to p.era tovto, ev

8rj
Ael
2n. re ecmv

iS
17.
eKarepov avrolv Kal Sid

rl
Trddos ylyveodov oTrorav
yCyvqodov I8elv rjp.ds' Trpcorov rrp> r700KJ7V' cooTrep
to yevos avrrjs Trporepov efiaoavloap.ev ovtco

,
Kal ravra av xcopls rrjv

S'
Trporepa. XvTrrjs
^oovrjv ovK av Trore 8vvalp,eda IKavcos pcujtwurai.
npn. 'AAA' ravrrj xpij Tropeveodai, ravrrj
Tropevcop.eda. el
2n. TAp' ovv ool KaddTrep ep.ol cf>alverai rrjs
yeveoecos avrcov Trepi;
npn. To ttoiov;
C

2n. 'Ev rco Koivo> p.oi yevei a/ia cf>alveodov


Xvtttj re Kal rjSovrj ylyveodai Kato. cf>voiv.
npn. Koiv6v 8e ye, d> Sco/cpare?, vtto-
cf>lXe
rl

p.lp.vrjoKe rjp.as Trore ta>v Trpoeiprjp,evcov fiovXei


SrjXovv.
2n. "Eorai ravr' els ovvap.iv, co davp.doie.
npn. KaXcos elTres.
tcov rer-
Srj
Koivov tolvvv vTraKovcop,ev o
2n.
rdpcov rpirov eXe'yop,ev.
npn. "O p.erd to dTreipov Kal Trepas eXeyes, ev
Kal vyleiav, olp.ai 8e Kal app.ovlav, erldeoo;
u)

2n. KoAAior' e1Tr6?. rov vovv Se 6Vi iiaAicrr'


D

rjSrj Trpooexe .
npn.
A

eye p.6vov.
2n. Aeyco rolvvv rrjs dpp.ovlas p.ev Xvop.evrjs
rjp.lv ev tols o>oi? d/ia Xvoiv rrjs cf>voecos Kal
yeveoiv dXyrj86vcov ev to> rore ylyveodai xpwQ'
npn. Yldvv Xeyeis ei/cd?.
2n. IlaAiv Se dpp.orrop.evqs re /cai els Trjv
avrrjs cf>voiv drnovcrqs rjSovqv ylyveodai XeKreov,
270
PHILEBUS
pro. We will remember that, of course.
soc. Our next task is to see in what and by means
of what feeling each of them comes into being when
ever they do come into being. We will take pleasure
first and discuss these questions in relation to
pleasure, as we examined its class first. But we
cannot examine pleasure successfully apart from pain.
pro. If that is our proper path, let us follow it.
soc. Do you agree with us about the origin of
pleasure ?
pro. What do you think it is ?
soc. I think pain and pleasure naturally originate
in the combined class.
pro. Please, my dear Socrates, remind us which
of the aforesaid classes you mean by the combined
class.
soc. I will do so, as well as I can, my brilliant
friend.
pro. Thank you.
soc. By combined class, then, let us understand
that which we said was the third of the four.
pro. The one yoo mentioned after the infinite
and the finite, and in which you put health and also,
I believe, harmony ?
soc. You are quite right. Now please pay very
close attention.
pro. I will. Say on.
soc. I say, then, that when, in us living beings,
harmony is broken up, a disruption of nature and a
generation of pain also take place at the same
moment.
pro. What you say is very likely.
soc. But if harmony is recomposed and returns to
its own nature, then I say that pleasure is generated,
271
PLATO

61 Sei Si oXlycov Trepl p,eylora>v ori ra^iora


prjdrjvai.
E , npn. Olp.ai p,ev oe 6pdcos Xeyeiv, co SuWpare?i
/
I
fJ.cpO.vecTTpov
\wti
0e TClVTCl

TClVTCl
f
TrelpoJp.eUO.
\

Xeyeiv.
2n. OvKovv ta 8rjp.6oid ttov Kal Trepicf>avrj
paorov cruvvoelv;
npn. Hola;
2n. IleiVij /xeV ttov Xvois Kal Xvtttj;
npn. Nai.
2n. 'ESo>Sr^ Se, TrXrjpcoois yiyvop,evrj TrdXiv,
rjSovrj ;
npn. Nai.
2n. Aii/ro? S' ai5 cf>dopa Kal XvTrrj,1 rj Se toU
32 vypov TrdXiv to rjpavdev TrXrjpovoa Svvap.is rjSovrj'
SiaKpiois 8e y av Kal SidXvois rj Trapa cf>voiv,
tov Trviyovs Trddrj, Xvtttj, Kara cf>voiv Se2 TrdXiv
dTr68oois re Kal ifivis r)SovTj.
npn. Yldvv p.kv ovv.
2n. Kai plyovs rj p.ev Trapa cf>voiv tov ^cpov
rrjs vyporrjros Trrjis Xvttrj, TrdXiv S' els raVrov
dmovrcov Kal SiaKpivop.evci>v rj /caro cf>voiv 686s
rjSovrj. Kal evi Xoycp oKoTrei ei ooi p.erpios
6 Xoyos os av cf>f} to eK tov3 aTrelpov Kal Triparos
B /card cf>voiv ep.ifivxov yeyovos elSos, oTrep eXeyov
ev to> orav p.ev tovto cf>delprjrai, rqv
Trpoodev,
p,ev cf>dopdvX vTrrjv eivai, tTjv S' els ttjv avru>v
ovolav 686v, ravrrjv S' av TrdXiv ttjv dvaxd>prjoiv
.Trdvrcov rjSovrjv.
npn. "Eorw So/cei yap p.oi tvttov ye riva exeiv.
\iTrri Kal Mas (\vcris B) BT Stobaeus bracketed by
1
:

Schleiermacher.
272
PHILEBUS
if I may speak in the fewest and briefest words
about matters of the highest import.
pro. I think you are right, Socrates ; but let us
try to be more explicit.
soc. It is easiest to understand common and
obvious examples, is it not ?
pro. What examples ?
soc. Is hunger a kind of breaking up and a pain ?
pro. Yes.
soc. And eating, which is a filling up again, is a
pleasure ?
pro. Yes.
soc. Thirst again is a destruction and a pain, but
the filling with moisture of that which was dried up
is a pleasure. Then, too, the unnatural dissolution
and disintegration we experience through heat are
a pain, but the natural restoration and cooling are
a pleasure.
pro. Certainly.
soc. And the unnatural hardening of the moisture
in an animal through cold is pain ; but the natural
course of the elements returning to their place and
separating is a pleasure. See, in short, if you think
it is a reasonable statement that whenever in the
class of living beings, which, as I said before, arises
out of the natural union of the infinite and the finite,
that union is destroyed, the destruction is pain, and
the passage and return of all things to their own
nature is pleasure.
pro. Let us accept that ; for it seems to me to
be true in its general lines.

Stobaeus BT Heusde.
54j

2
5'

5e :
:

tov Stallbaum BT.


3

tv}s
:

vol. m t 273
PLATO

2n. Tovro p.ev tolvvv ev eiSos ridcop,eda XvTrrjs


re Kal rjSovrjs ev tovtois tols Trddeoiv eKaripots ;
npn. Kelodo>.
18. in. Tldci ifiuxfjs Kara
toIvvv avTrjs T,rjs
to tovtcov tcov Tradrjp.arcov Trpoo86Krjp.a to p.ev
Trp6 tcov rjSecov eXTri^op.evov rjSv Kal dappaXeov,
ro Se Trp6 row Kal dXyeivov.
XvTrrjpcov cf>ofiepov
npn. "Eori yap ovv tovd' rjSovrjs Kai XvTrrjs
erepov elSos, to ^copis tov ocop.aros clvtrjs rr)s
faxrjs TrpoaOoKUis yvyvop,evov.
sn. 'Opdcos vTreXafies . iv yap tovtols oi/iai,
/cara ye ttjv ip.rjv 86av, eiAi/cpive'ai re e/carepoi?
yiyvop.evois, cos So/cei, Kal a/Lu'/ctoi? XvTrrjs re Kal
rjSovrjs, ep.cf>aves eoeodai to Trepl ttjv rjSovrjv,
Trorepov oXov eorl to yevos doTraorov , rj tovto
p,ev erepcp rivl tcov
Trpoeiprjp.ivcov Soreov rjpuv
yevcov, rjSovfj Se Kal XvTrrj, KaddTrep depp.co Kal
ifivxpcp Kal TrrXct1 rois roIovroIs, rore p,ev do-rra-
areov avra, rore Se ovK aoTraoreov , cos dyadd
p.ev ovK dvra, evlore Se Kal evia 8ex6p.eva ttjv
tcov dyadcov eoriv ore cf>voiv.
npn. 'Opdorara Xeyeis, otl ravrrj Trrj Sel Sia-
drjpevdrjvai1 to vvv p,eraSicoKop,evov .
2n. Ylpcorov p,ev tolvvv roSe
vvl8cop,ev cos
elTrep ovtcos eori to Xey6p,evov, Sia^deipop.evcov
p,ev avrcov dXyrjScov, avaoco^op.evcov Se rjSovrj,
row p.rjre Siacf>deipop.evcov pope dvaocotDop.evcov
evvorjocop,ev Trepi, riva Trore eiv Sei rore ev
eKaorois elvai tois ojoi?, otov ovtcos loxU'
ocf>68pa Se Trpooexcov tov vovv elTre' dpa ov Traoa
1
diadTjpevdrji'ai Stephanus : dionropci)dT)vai BT : diaTropridijvai
Solomon.
274
PHILEBUS
soc. Then may assume this as one kind of
we
pain and pleasure arising severally under the con
ditions I have described ?
pro. Let that be assumed.
soc. Now assume within the soul itself the anticipa
tion of these conditions, the sweet and cheering hope
of pleasant things to come, the fearful and woful
expectation of painful things to come.
pro. Yes, indeed, this is another kind of pleasure
and pain, which belongs to the soul itself, apart
from the body, and arises through expectation.
soc. You are right. I think that in these two
kinds, both of which are, in my opinion, pure, and
not formed by mixture of pain and pleasure, the
truth about pleasure will be made manifest, whether
the entire class is to be desired or such desirability
is rather to be attributed to some other class among
those we have mentioned, whereas pleasure and
pain, like heat, cold, and other such things, are
sometimes desirable and sometimes undesirable, be
cause they are not good in themselves, though some
of them sometimes admit on occasion the nature of
the good.
pro. You are quite right in saying that we must
track our quarry on this trail.
soc. First, then, let us agree on this point : If it
is true, as we said, that destruction is pain and
restoration is pleasure, let us consider the case of
living beings in which neither destruction nor restora
tion is going on, and what their state is under such
conditions. Fix your mind on my question : Must
275
PLATO

dvdyKrj Trav iv tco rore xpovco ^coov p.rjre ti


XvTrelodai p.tjre rjSeodai p.Tjre p.eya p.rjre opuKpov;
npn.
r\'*w
'AvdyKrj
yJVKoVv
p.ev ovv.
e<TTl tiff
/
TpiTTj
i ~
rjp.cov
r
r] ToiCLVTtj
/

33 8iddeois Trapd re rrjv tov xalpovros Kal Trapd ttjv


rov XvTrovp.evov ;
npn. TI p.rjv;

S1j
Sn. "Aye tolvvv, ravrrjs Trpodvp.ov p.ep.vrj-
odai. Trpos yap ttjv tt)s r)Sovrjs xploiv ov opuKpov
p.ep.vrjodai ravrqv eod' rjpuv pvrj. /Jpa^u Se

r)
ti avrrjs,
el

Trepl fiovXei, SiaTrepdvcop.ev .


rrpn.
A

eye ttolov.
2n. Tov1 tov cf>povelv /Ji'ov2 olod' cos tovtov
tov rpoTrov ovSev dTroKcoXvei tfiv.
npn. Tov tov p.rj ^aipeiv p.rj8e XvTreiodai Xeyeis;
B

Sn. 'ILpprjdrj ydp ttov tots iv rjj


TrapafioXfj tcov
/Ji'ow p.rj8ev Seiv p.Tjre p.eya p.rjre opuKpov xalpeiv
rcp tov tov voelv Kal cf>poveiv filov eXop.evco.
npn. Kai
p.dXa ovtcos ippTfirj.
2n. OvKovv ovtcos dv eVeiVco ye vTrdpxof Kal
locos ovSev otottov, tcov /Ji'cov eori
el

Trdvrcov
deioraros.
npn. OvKovv cIKos ye ovre xalpeiv deovs ovre
to ivavriov.
sn. Yldvv p.ev ovv ovK cIKos' do^p.ov Yovv
8rj

avrcov eKarepov yiyvop.evov eoriv. dXXd tovto


p.ev en Kal els avdis imoKeificop.eda, iav Trpos
C

ti
Kal tco vco Trpos ra Sevrepela, edv
fj,

Xoyov
p.rj Trpos ra Trpcorela 8vvcLp.eda Trpoodelvai, Trpoo-
drjoop.ev.
npn. 'Opdorara Xeyeis.
rhv Badham: ti} t6v BT.
1

276
PHILEBUS
not every living being under those conditions neces
sarily be devoid of any feeling of pain or pleasure,
great or small ?
pro. Yes, necessarily.
soc. Have we, then, a third condition,' besides
those of feeling pleasure and pain ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Well then, do your best to bear it in mind ;
for remembering or forgetting it will make a great
dilference in our judgement of pleasure. And I
should like, if you do not object, to speak briefly
about it.
pro. Pray do so.
soc. You know that there is nothing to hinder a
man from living the life of wisdom in this manner.
pro. You mean without feeling pleasure or pain ?
soc. Yes, for it was said, you know, in our com
parison of the lives that he who chose the life of
mind and wisdom was to have no feeling of pleasure,
great or small.
pro. Yes, surely, that was said.
soc. Such a man, then, would have such a life ;
and perhaps it is not unreasonable, if that is the
most divine of lives.
pro. Certainly it is not likely that gods feel either
joy or its opposite.
soc. No, it is very unlikely ; for either is unseemly
for them. But let us reserve the discussion of that
point for another time, if it is appropriate, and we
will give mind credit for it in contending for the
second place, if we cannot count it for the first.
pro. Quite right.
2
Badham : thonivcp fiiov
jSiov BT. Probably inserted
here from the passage just below.
277
PLATO

19. 2n. Kai p.rjv to ye 'erepov elSos tcov


rjSovcov, 8 rrjs *fivxrjs avrrjs ecf>ap.ev eivai, Sid
p.vrjp.rjs Trav eorl yeyovos.
npn. rIcDs;
2n. Nlvrjp.rjv, cos eoiKev, o tl ttot earn Trporepov
dvaXrjTrreov , Kal Kiv8vvevei TrdXiv eri Trporepov
alodrjoiv p.vqp.rjs, el p.eXXei ro Trepl ravd' r)puv
Kara rpoTrov cf>avepd Trrj yevrjoeodai.
D npn. Ilco? ^rjs;
2n. 0e? ta>v Trepl to od>p.a rjp.d>v eKaorore
Tradrjjxarow ta p.ev ev to> ocop.ari Karaofiev-
vvp.eva Trplv em ttjv i/a^v SieeXdelv dTradrj
eKelvqv edoavra, tol 8e 8l dp.cf>olv Iovtol Kal tiva
cLoTrep oeiop.ov evridevra 'I8iov re Kal Kolvov
e/carepco.
npn. Kelodco. .

Ta lovra edv rrjv


Srj

Si

Sn. piev p.rj djxcf>olv


iftvxrjv r)p.d>v cf>cop.ev Xavddveiv, to. 8e Si' dp.cf>olv
p.rj Xavddveiv, dp' opdorara ipuvp.ev;
npn. Hcos yap oii;
E

2Xn. To tolvvv
XeXrjdevai p.rj8ap.cos vTroXdfirjs
d>s Xeyco Xrjdrjs evravdd ttov yeveoiv eori yap
S'

Xrjdrj p.vrjp.rjs eoSos, ev tco Xeyop.evco vvv


rj
8rj

ovTto> yeyove, tov p.rjre ovtos p.rjre yeyovoros


ttco1 ylyveodai cf>dvai riva dTrofioXrjv droTrov. yap;
rj

npn. Ti pvrjv;
2n. Ta tolvvv ovop.ara p.erafiaXe p.6vov.
npn.
Il

co?;
2n. 'AvtI p,ev tov XeXrjdevai ttjv ifivxrjv, 6'rav
dTradrjs avrrj ylyvrjrai tcov oeiop.cov tcov tov
34 oco/xaro?, rjv vvv Xrjdrjv KaXels, dvaiodrjolav eTr-
ovop.aoov .
278
PHILEBUS
soc. Now the other class of pleasure, which we
said was an alfair of the soul alone, originates
entirely in memory.
pro. How is that ?
soc. We must, apparently, first take up memory,
and perception even before memory, if these matters
are to be made clear to us properly.
pro. What do you mean ?
soc. Assume that some of the alfections of our
body are extinguished in the body before they reach
the soul, leaving the soul unalfected, and that other
alfections permeate both body and soul and cause
a vibration in both conjointly and in each individually.
pro. Let that.
us assume
soc. Shall we be right in saying that the soul
forgets those which do not permeate both, and does
not forget those which do ?
pro. Yes, certainly.
soc. Do not in the least imagine that when I
speak of forgetting I mean that forgetfulness arises
in this case ; for forgetfulness is the departure of
memory, and in the case under consideration memory
has not yet come into being ; now it is absurd to
speak of the loss of that which does not exist and
has not yet come into being, is it not ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Then just change the terms.
pro. How ?
soc. Instead of saying that the soul forgets, when
it is unalfected by the vibrations of the body, apply
the term want of perception to that which you are
now calling forgetfulness.

1
trw Stobaeus : Trws 15 : irws T.
279
PLATO
npn. "JLpiadov.
2n. To S' iv evl Trddei ttjv >/ivxrjv Kal to ocop.a
Koivfj yiyvop,evov Koivfj Kal Kivelodai, ravrTpi S'
av rrjv Kivrjoiv ovop.d^cov ouodrjoiv ovK oltto rpdTrov
cf>deyyoi av.
npn. 'AXrjdeorara Xeyeis.
2n. OvKovv rj0rj p.avddvop.ev o p1ovXop.eda Ka-
Xelv ttjv aiodrjoiv;
npn. Ti p.rjv;
2n. Hcorrjplav rolvvv alodrjoecos ttjv p.vrjp.rjv
Xeycov opdcos av tis Xeyoi Kara ye ttjv ip.rjv Soav.
B npn. 'Opdcos ydp ovv.
2n. Mvrjp.rjs Se dvdp.vrjoiv dp' ov oiacf>epovoav
Xeyop,ev;
npn. "locos.
2n. 'Ap' ovv ov r68e;
npn. To ttoiov;
2n. "Orav a p.erd rov ocop.aros vaaxiviv ttod'
*fivxri, ravr dvev rov ocop.aros avrrj iv iavrfj
r)1

ori p.dXiora dvaXap.fiavrj rore dvap.ipwQoKeodal


,

ttov Xeyop,ev. ydp;


i)

npn. Havv p,ev ovv.


2n. Kai p.rjv Kal orav aTroXeoaoa p.vrjp.rjv e"ire
alodijoeu>s eir av p.adrjp.aros avdis ravrrjv dv-
eavrfj, Kal ravra vp.Travra
iv
C

aTroXrjorj TrdXiv avrr)


avap.vrjoeis2 ttov Xeyop,ev.
npn. 'Op#o>? Xeyeis.
x.plv dTravr elprjrai ravra, eori
8tj

2n. O5
rdSe.
npn. To ttoiov
;

2n. "lva Tj'ST/3 trjv rrjs *fivxrjs rjSovrjv ^iopi?


ocop.aros ori p.dXiora Kal ivapyeorara Xdfioip,ev,
280
PHILEBUS
pro. I understand.
soc. And the union of soul and body in one
common affection and one common motion you may
properly call perception.
pro. Very true.
soc. Then do we now understand what we mean
by perception ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. I think, then, that memory may rightly be
defined as the preservation of perception.
pro. Quite rightly.
soc. But do we not say that memory differs from
recollection ?
pro. Perhaps.
soc. And is this the difference ?
pro. What ?
soc. When the soul alone by itself, apart from the
body, recalls completely any experience it has had
in company with the body, we say that it recollects
do we not ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And again when the soul has lost the memory
of a perception or of something it has learned and
then alone by itself regains this, we call everything
of that kind recollection.
pro. You are right.
soc. Now my reason for saying all this is
pro. What ?
soc. That henceforth we may comprehend as
completely and clearly as possible the pleasure of

1
tr60' ii T:
Trddri B.
avanv rjaeis Kal fivrj/nas BT : Kai fiv^fias bracketed by Gloel.
3
?55ij Hermann : /iij BT : Trf) Schiitz.
281
PLATO

/cai dp.a emdvfxuw Sia yap rovrcov ttcds ravra


dp.cf>6repa eoi/ce 8rjXovodai.
20. npn. Aeycop.ev rolvvv, c5 Sco/cpare?, rfSij
to p.era ravra.
2n. IloAAa ye Trepl yeveoiv rjSovrj? /cai Traoav
D rijv p.opcf>rjv airrjs aVay/caiov, d>s eoi/ce, Xiyovras
oKoTrelv. /cai yap vvv Trporepov eri cf>alverai
XrqTrreov eTridvp.lav eivai, n wot' eori /cai Ttou
yiypenu.
npn. HKoTrcop.ev tolvvv ovSev yap dTroXovp.ev.
2n. 'ATroXovpiev p,ev ovv, /cai ravrd ye, cS
Ilpuirap^e, eupcWe? o iw
^Tjrovp,ev, aTroXovp,ev1
rrjv Trepl avra ravra dTroplav.
npn. 'Opdcos r)p.vvco, to S' eferjs rovrois
Treipd>p,eda Xeyeiv.
2n. Ou/cow vw
S1j

Trelvrpr re /cai Slifios /cai


Tr0AA' erepa roiavra elval rivas emdvp.las;
E

ecf>ap.ev
npn. Hcf>68pa ye.
2n. Ilpo? ri Trore dpa raurov fiXeifiavres ovrco
ttoXv Siacf>epovra ravd' evl Trpooayopevop,ev 0V0-
p.ari;
npn. Mo Ai" ov paSiov locos ehrelv, co co-
Kpares, dXX' op.cos XeKreov.
Srj

2n. 'E/cei^ev e'/c rcov avrcov TrdXiv dvaXd-


ftcop.ev.
npn. Ilotev 8rj;
2n. An/riJ Trou Xeyop,ev eKaorore ri;
npn. Ilai? ou;
S'

2n. ToOto 8e iari Kevovrai;


y

npn. Ti p.rjv;
2n. TAp' ouV to 8lif>os eorlv eTridvp.la;
npn. Nai, Trd>p.aros ye.
282
PHILEBUS
the soul, and likewise its desire, apart from the
body ; for both of these appear to be made plain by
what has been said about memory and recollection.
pro. Let us, then, Socrates, discuss the next point.
soc. We must, it seems, consider many things in
relation to the origin and general aspect of pleasure ;
but now I think our first task is to take up the nature
and origin of desire.
pro. Then let us examine that ; for we shall not
lose anything.
soc. Oh yes, Protarchus, we shall lose a great deal !
When we find what we are seeking we shall lose our
perplexity about these very questions.
pro. That is a fair counter ; but let us try to
take up the next point.
soc. Did we not say just now that hunger, thirst,
and the like were desires ?
pro. They are, decidedly.
soc. What sort of identity have we in view when
wc call these, which are so different, by erne name ?
pro. By Zeus, Socrates, that question may not be
easy to answer, yet it must be answered.
soc. Let us, then, begin again at that point with
the same examples.
pro. At what point ?
soc. We say of a thing on any particular occasion,
"
it's thirsty," do we not ?
pro. Of course.
soc. And that means being empty ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And is thirst, then, a desire ?
pro. Yes, of drink.

1
atroXoD/iev B : om. T.
PLATO

35 2n. Ylcop.aros, r) TrXrjpcooecos Trcop.aros;


npn. Olp.ai p.ev TrXrjpcooecos.
2Q. 'O Kevovp.evos rjp.cov dpa, cos em-
eoiKev,
Qvp.el tcov evavricov r) Trdoxef Kevovp.evos yap
epa TrXrjpovodai.
npn.
Sa^earam ye.
2n. Ti ovv; 6 to Trpcorov Kevovp.evos eorriv
orrodev eir' alodrjoei TrXrjpcooecos ecf>dmoir dv
elre p.vrjp.rj, tovtov o p.rjr' ev tco vvv xpovco ttioxei
p.rjr' ev tco Trpoode ttcottot eTradev;
npn. Kai ttcos;
B 2n. 'AAAd pvqv o y emdvp.cov tivos emdvp.el,
cf>ap.ev.
npn. Ylcos yap ov;
2n. Ou/c dpa d ye Trdoxei, tovtov emdvp.el. S11/7j
yap, tovto oe Kevcoois, 6 Se eTudvp.el TrXrjpcooecos.
npn. Nai.
2n. YlXrjpcooecos y dpa ti tcov tov Suficovros
dv ecf>aTrroiro .
''
npn. AvayKalov .

2n. To p.kv dSvvarov Kevovrai yap ttov.


Srj

ocop.a
npn. Nai.
2n. Trjv ^vxifv dpa .Tijs TrXrjpcooecos e^dmeodai
Xolttov, rfj p.vrjp.rj 8rjXov orf rco yap av er dXXco
C

ecf>difiairo
;

npn.
S^eSov ovoevl.
21. 2n. M.avddvop.ev ovv 0 ovp.fie/irjx rjp.lv
eK tovtcov tcov Xoycov
;

npn. To ttolov;
2n. Hcop.aros imdvp.lav ov rjp.lv ovros
6

cf>rjoiv
Xoyos ylyveodai.
npn. co?;
Il

284
PHILEBUS
soc. Of drink, or of being filled with drink ?
pro. Of being filled, I suppose.
soc. The man, then, who is empty desires, as it
appears, the opposite of what he feels ; for, being
empty, he longs to be filled.
pro. That is very plain.
soc. Well then, is there any source from which a
man who is empty at first can gain a comprehension,
whether by perception or by memory, of fulness,
a thing which he does not feel at the time and has
never felt before ?
pro. It cannot be done.
soc. And yet he who desires, desires something,
we say.
pro. Of course.
soc. And he does not desire that which he feels ;
for he is thirsty, and that is emptiness, but he desires
fulness.
pro. Yes.
soc. Then somehow some part of him who is
thirsty can apprehend fulness.
pro. Yes, obviously.
soc. But it cannot be the body, for that is empty.
pro. True.
soc. The only remaining possibility is that the
soul apprehends it, which it must do by means of
memory ; for what other means could it employ ?
pro. No other, I should say.
soc. And do we understand the consequences of
this argument ?
pro. What are the consequences ?
soc. This argument declares that we have no
bodily desire.
pro. How so ?
285
PLATO

2n. "Ori rols eKelvov Tradrjp.aoiv evavrlav del


Travros coou p,rjvvei rrjv eTrixelprjoiv .
npn. Kai p.dXa.
2n. 'II
8' opp.rj ye eVi rowairiov ayouoa r7 rd
Tradrjp.ara SijAoi Tr011 p.vrjp.rjv ovoav rcov rois ttoBtj-
f>iaoiv evavrlcov.
npn. Ilavu ye.
D 2n. Trjv dpa eTrdyovoav em rd imdvp.ovp,eva
dTroSelas p.vrjpvrjv 6 Xoyos ^i^fty? vp.mxoav trjv re
6pp.rjv Kal emdvp.lav Kal trjv dp\rjv rov Vou ttovtos
aTrecf>rjvev .
npn. 'Opdorara.
2n. Aiifirjv dpa rjp.cov to oo>p.a rj Treivrjv rj ti
tcov toiovtcov Trdoxeiv ov8ap.fj 6 Xoyos alpel.
npn. 'AXrjdeorara.
2n. "Eri /cai roSe Trepl ravrd ravra /cara-
Sr)

vorjocop.ev. jilov yap eiSd? n /xoi ^aiVerai fiovXe-


odai SrjXovv Xoyos rjp.iv ev tovtols avrols,
6

npn. 'Ev rioi /cai ttolov Trepl


E

filov cf>pd^eis;
2n. 'Ev tco TrXrjpovodai Kal Kevovodai /cai Trdaiv
ooa Tre/3i ocorrjplav re eari rcuv ^cocov /cai tr)c cf>dopdv,
/cai ei ri? tovtcov ev eKarepcp yiyvop.evos rjp.cov
dAyei, rore1 Se ^aipei /card rd? p.erajioXds.
npn. "Eori raw,a.
Ti orav
S'

2n. ev p.eoco rovrcov ylyvryrai;


npn. Ilcos ev p,eoco;
2n. Aid /xev to Trddos dXyfj, p.ep.vrjrai Se rdV
rj8ecov, cov2 yevop.evcov Travoir dv rr]s dAyriSoVo?,

rort Stallbaum rare BT.


1

lix add. corr. Ven. 189 om. BT.


2

286
PHILEBUS
soc. Because it shows that the endeavour of every
living being is always towards the opposite of the
actual conditions of the body.
pro. Yes, certainly.
soc. And the impulse which leads towards the
opposite of those conditions shows that there is a
memory of the opposite of the conditions.
pro. Certainly.
soc. And the argument, by showing that memory
is that which leads us towards the objects of desire,
has proved that all the impulse, the desire, and
the ruling principle in every living being are of
the soul.
pro. Quite right.
soc. So the argument denies utterly that the body
hungers or thirsts or has any such affection.
pro. Very true.
soc. Let us consider a further point in connexion
with those very alfections. For I think the purpose
of the argument is to point out to us a state of life
existing in them.
pro. Of what sort of life are you speaking, and
in what alfections does it exist ?
soc. In the alfections of fulness and emptiness and
all which pertain to the preservation and destruction
of living beings, and I am thinking that if we fall
into one of these we feel pain, which is followed by
joy when we change to the other.
pro. That is true.
soc. And what if a man is between the two ?
pro. How between them ?
soc. Because of his condition, he is suffering, but
he remembers the pleasures the coming of which
would bring him an end of his pain ; as yet, however,
287
PLATO

TrXrjpd>rai 8e pvrprw n rore; cf>d>p.ev rj p.rj cf>u>p.ev


36 avrov iv p.eocp ro>v Tradrjp.drcov elvai;
npn. Q>cop,ev p.ev ovv.
2n. Ilorepov dXyovvd' oAoiy T) xaCpovra;
npn. Ma A", dAAd S1TrArj nvi Awtj Aiwou-
p.evov, Kara p.ev to od>p.a ev rco Tradrfp.ari, Kara Se
rrjv ifivxrjv TrpoofioKlas rivi Trodip.
2n. Hcos, co Ilpcirap^e, to SnrAow rrj? Xvtttjs
enres; dp' ovK eori p.ev ore ris rjp.cxjv Kevovp.evos
B eV eXmSi cf>avepa rov TrXqpcodrjoeodai KadeorrjKe,
rore rovvavrlov dveXTrlorcos e'^ei>
npn. Kai p.aAa ye.
2n.Moiv ofo ovxl eXm^u>v p.ev TrXrjpcodrjoeodai
tco p.ep.vrjodai So/cel ooi xalpeiv, a./ia Se Kevovp.evos
ev rovrois rols ^poVois dAyeiv;
npn. 'AvdyKrj.
2n. Tot' apa dvdpumos Ka1 raAAa aia XvTrelral
re a/ia. /cai xaipei.
npn. KivSweuei.
2n. Ti S' 0rav Kevovp.evos
dveATriara>? e^rj
reveodai TrXrjpcooecos ; dp' ov rore r6 SlttXovv
ylyvoir dv Trepi ras XvTras Trddos, o ov vvv STj
/cariScbv cprjdrjs dTrXcos elvai SnrXovv;
C

npn. 'AXrjdeorara, HcoKpares.


c5
8rj

2n. Tavrrj rfj oKeiftei rovrcov rcov Tradrjpidro>v


r68e xprjcrcop,eda.
npn. To Trdlov;
2n.Ylorepov dXrjdels ravras rds XvTras re Kal
rjSovds ifievSels elvai Xeop.ev; rds p.ev rivas
rj
T)

dXrjdels, rds ov;


S'

npn. Yld>s S', co HcoKpares, dv eiev


ifievSeis
rjSoval Xihrai;
rj

288
PHILEBUS
he does not possess them. Well then, shall we say
that he is between the affections, or not ?
pro. Let us say so.
soc. Shall we say that he is wholly pained or
wholly pleased ?
pro. No, by Zeus, but he is afflicted with a twofold
pain ; he suffers in body from his sensation, and in
soul from expectation and longing.
soc. How could you, Protarchus, speak of twofold
pain ? Is not an empty man sometimes possessed
of a sure hope of being filled, and sometimes, on the
contrary, quite hopeless ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And do you not think that when he has a
hope of being filled he takes pleasure in his memory,
and yet at the same time, since he is at the moment
empty, suffers pain ?
pro. It cannot be otherwise.
soc. At such a time, then, a man, or any other
animal, has both pain and pleasure at once.
pro. Yes, I suppose so.
soc. And when an empty man is without hope of
being filled, what then ? Is not that the time when
the twofold feeling of pain would arise, which you
just now observed and thought the pain simply was
twofold ?
pro. Very true, Socrates.
soc. Let us make use of our examination of those
affections for a particular purpose.
pro. For what purpose ?
soc. Shall we say that those pleasures and pains are
true or false, or that some are true and others not so ?
pro. But, Socrates, how can there be false plea
sures or pains ?
VoL. Ill u 289
PLATO

2n. Ilco? 8e, Ylpd>rapxe, cf>ofioi dv dXrjdels tj


co

ifiievSels, r) TrpooSoKiai dXrjdels rj p.rj, rj Soai dXrjdels


rj ^leuSel?;
D npn. A6as p.ev eycoy' dv ttov ovy)(ix>poirjv, to
S' erepa ravr' ovK dv.
2n. Ild>? cf>jjs; Xoyov /ieVroi rivd Kiv8vvevop,ev
ov Trdvv op.iKpov eTreyelpeiv .
npn. 'AXrjdrj Xeyeis.
sn. 'AAA' el
TrapeXrjXvdora,
Trpos co ra Trai
'Kelvov rdvSpos, TrpoorjKovra, tovto oKeTrreov.
npn. "loco? tovto ye.
2n. Xaipeiv tolvvv Sei Xeyeiv tols aAAoi? p.rjKeoiv
rj Kal otcoovv tcov Trapa to TrpoorjKov Xeyop.evcov .

npn. 'Opdcos.
2n. A eye
Srj

E /ior davp.a ydp e/ie' exei Sid

y
reXovs del Trepl rd aura. iw S1j
Trpovdep.eda aTro-
d

prjp.ara.
upn. Ylcos
8rj

cf>rjs;
YeuSer?, al dXrjdels ovK elolv r)Soval;
S'

2n.
upn. Ilco? ydp dv;
S1j

2n. Oure ovap ovd' map, co? ^H?,1 out' eV


p.avlais out' eV Trapacppoovvais2 ouSel? eo#' 6'oris
Ttot6 So/cei ^.ev xalpeiv, xalpei 8e ouSa/ico?, ouS'
S'

au So/cei /icV XvTrelodai, AuTrerrea ou.


npn. Ylavd' outco tout',
o)

Sco/cpa/re?, exeiv
Trdvres vTreiXrjcf>ap.ev .
sn. ^Ap' ovv 6pdcos; oKemeov ei.V 6pdcos eLVe
r)

rauYa Xeyerai;
22. npn. S/ceTrreov, co? Aair>v dv.
3

y
7

eyd>

Stallbaum 0jjs, ^tiv BT.


1

cprjs
:

B, from trdacus Trdcais


2

Trapaippoauvais d0poc7i.Vciis acppo.


:

avvais T.
2.90
PHILEBUS
soc. But, Protarchus, how can there be true and
false fears, or true and false expectations, or true
and false opinions ?
pro. Opinions I would grant you, but not the rest.
soc. What ? I am afraid we are starting a very
considerable discussion.
pro. You are right.
soc. And yet we must consider, thou son of that
man,1 whether the discussion is relevant to what has
gone before.
pro. Yes, no doubt.
soc. We must dismiss everything else, tedious or
otherwise, that is irrelevant.
pro. Right.
soc. Now tell me ; for I am always utterly amazed
by the same questions we were just proposing.
pro. What do you mean ?
soc. Are not some pleasures false and others true ?
pro. How could that be ?
soc. Then, as you maintain, nobody, either sleep
ing or waking or insane or deranged, ever thinks he
feels pleasure when he does not feel it, and never,
on the other hand, thinks he sulfers pain when he
does not sulfer it ?
pro. We have, Socrates, always believed that all
this is as you suggest.
soc. But is the belief correct ? Shall we consider
whether it is so or not ?
pro. I should say we ought to consider that.
1 " Son of that man " may mean " son of Philebus,"
in so far as Protarchus is a pupil of Philebus, or (so Bury)
" son of Gorgias," the orator and teacher 58 b), or the
(c/.
father of Protarchus may be referred to by the pronoun,
possibly because Socrates does not at the moment recall his
name or because he wishes to imply that he was a man of mark.
291
PLATO

2n. Aiopiocop,eda orj oacf>eorepov eti to vvv orj


Xeyop.evov rjSovrjs re Trepi Kal 86rjs. eori yap
ttov ri ood^eiv rjp.lv;
tip n. Nai.
2n. Kai rj8eodai;
npn. Nai.
2n. Kai Kai ro
p.rjv Sot;a^6piev6v eorl ri;
npn. Iluj? S' ov;
sn. Kai ro ye co ro Tjoop,evov rjoerai;
npn. Kai Travv ye.
2n. OvKovv ro Sod^ov, avre 6pdcos avre p.rj
opdcos ood^rj, ro ye ood^eiv ovrcos ovoeTror' dTroX-
Xvoiv.
B npn. Il cos
yap dv;
2n. OvKovv Kal ro rj86pievov, avre opdcos avre
p.rj opdcos rjSrjrai, ro ye ovrcos rjSeodai 8rjXov cos
ovoeTrore dTroXel.
npn. Nai, Kal rovd' oircos ^xel,
8rj

2n. "Otco1 Trore ovv rpoTrcp S6a if>ev8rjs re Kal


dXrjdrjs rjp.iv cf>iXel ylyveodai, ro Se rrjs rjSovrjs
ovrcos Kal ^alpeiv
S'

p.6vov dXrjdes, Sod^eiv dp.cf>6-


repa 6p.olcos elXrjxev2 oKeTrreov.3
npn. HiKeTrreov.
2n. TAp' ori 86rj p.ev emylyveodov ifievoos re
Kal dXrjdes, Kal eyevero ov p.6vov Sda Sid. ravra
3

dXXd Kal Troid ris eKarepa, oKeTrreov cf>fjs rovr'


elvai;
npn. Nai.
sn. rovrois, Kal ro
el

Ylpos Se ye TrapdTrav

6tV BT: tQ vulg.


1

Stallbaum: d\,riQiv BT.


2

et\r}xe
incewriw add. Baiter.
3

292
PHILEBUS
soc. Then let us analyse still more clearly what
we were just now saying about pleasure and opinion.
There is a faculty of having an opinion, is there not ?
pro. Yes.
soc. And of feeling pleasure ?
pro. Yes.
soc. And there is an object of opinion ?

pro. Of course.
soc. And something by which that which feels
pleasure is pleased ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And that which has opinion, whether right
or wrong, never loses its function of really having
opinion ?
pro. Of course not.
soc. And that which feels pleasure, whether
rightly or wrongly, will clearly never lose its function
of really feeling pleasure ?
pro. Yes, that is true, too.
soc. Then we must consider how it is that opinion
is both true and false and pleasure only true, though
the holding of opinion and the feeling of pleasure are
equally real.
pro. Yes, so we must.
soc. You mean that we must consider this ques
tion because falsehood and truth are added as
attributes to opinion, and thereby it becomes not
merely opinion, but opinion of a certain quality in
each instance ?
pro. Yes.
soc. And furthermore,we must reach an agree
ment on the question whether, even if some things

293
PLATO

rjjiiv ta p.ev eori ttol drra, rjSovrj Se Kal XvTrrj p.6vov


dTrep eorl, ttoux> rive1 Se ov ylyveodov , Kal ravd' rjp.lv
Siop.oXoyqreov.
npn. ArjXov.
2n. 'AAA' ovb'ev tovto ye xaAeTrov ISelv, ori
Kal ttolo> rive. TrdXai yap enrop.ev ori fieydXai re
Kal opuKpal Kal ocf>6opa eKarepai ylyvovrai, XvTral
D re Kal rjSovai.
npn. YlavrdTraoi /u.ee aw.
2n. *Av Se ye Trovrjpia rovrcov, co Ylpcorapxe,
Trpooyiyvryral rivi, Trovrjpdv p.ev cf>rjoop.ev ovrco ylyve-
odai 86av, Trovrjpdv 8e Kal rjSovrjv;
npn. 'AAAd n p.rjv, cb Ho>Kpares ;
2n. Tl
S', av opdorrjs rj rovvavrlov 6pdorrjri
rivl rovro>v Trpooylyvrjrai; p.cx>v ovK opdrjv p,ev
86av epovp.ev, av opdorrjra ioXH> raiirov Se rjSovrjv;
npn. 'AvayKalov.
E sn. *Av Se' ye dp.apravop.evov to Soal^op.evov
rrjv Soav rore ap.aprdvovodv ye ovK opdr/v
fj,

op-oXoyrjreov ovS' opdcos Sod^ovoav


;

npn. Ylcos yap av;


2n. Tl S', av av XvTrrjv riva rjSovrjv Trepl to
rj

XvTrelrai rovvavrlov dp.aprdvovoav ecf>-


o)

r)

ecf>'

opcop.ev, dpdrjv xprjorqv ri rdiv KaXcov 6vop.drcov


rj

rj

avrfj Trpoodrjoop.ev
;

npn. 'AAA ovx oiov re, elTrep dp.aprrjoeral ye


rjSovrj.
2n. Kai p.rjv eoiKe
ye rjSovrj TroAAd/ci? ov p,erd
86rjs opdrjs dXXd /xerd ifievSovs rjp.lv ylyveodai.
npn. Ild>? yap ov; Kal rrjv p.ev 86av ye, co
38 Ho>Kpares, ev rco roiovrco Kal tore Xeyop.ev2 ifievSrj,
airrjv ovSels av Trore TrpoaelTroi ifievSrj.
S'

r,qv rjSovqv
294
PHILEBUS
have qualities, pleasure and pain are not merely
what they are, without qualities or attributes.
pro. Evidently we must.
soc. But it is easy enough to see that they have
qualities. For we said a long time ago that both
pains and pleasures are great and small and intense.
pro. Yes, certainly.
soc. And if badness becomes an attribute of any
of these, Protarchus, shall we say that the opinion
or the pleasure thereby becomes bad ?
pro. Why certainly, Socrates.
soc. And what if Tightness or its opposite becomes
an attribute of one of them ? Shall we not say that
the opinion is right, if it has Tightness, and the
pleasure likewise ?
pro. Obviously.
soc. And if that which is opined is mistaken,
must we not agree that the opinion, since it is at
the moment making a mistake, is not right or rightly
opining ?
pro. Of course.
soc. And what if we see a pain or a pleasure
making a mistake in respect of that by which the
pain or pleasure is caused ? Shall we give it the
attribute of right or good or any of the words which
denote excellence ?
pro. That is impossible if the pleasure is mistaken.
soc. And certainly pleasure often seems to come
to us in connexion with false, not true, opinion.
pro. Of course it does ; and in such a case,
Socrates, we call the opinion false ; but nobody
would ever call the actual pleasure false.
1
Troiib rive t : Troiuv rive T : rtoioiv rive B.
2
\iyoixev Stallbaum : {\iyofiev BT.
295
PLATO

2n. 'AAAd Trpodvp.cos dp,vveis tco rrjs rjSovrjs, co


Ylpcorapxe, Xoycp ra vvv.
npn. Ov8ev ye, aW dTrep olKovco Xeyco.
so. Aiacf>epei 8' rjp.iv ovSev, d> iralpe, rj p.era
86rjs tc opdrjs Kal p,er' emorrjp.rjs rjSovrj rrjs p,erd
tov ifievSovs Kal dyvolas1 TroXXdKis eKaorois rjp.d>v
iyyiyvop.evrjs ;
B npn. Ei/cd? yovv p.rj op.iKpov Siacf>epeiv.
23. 2n. Trjs Sia^o/>a? ST)
cwtoi>/ eTrl decoplav
eXdcop,ev.
npn. "Aye 0Tr7j "oi ^aiv6tCU.
S1j

2n. TjjSe ayco.


npn. Iitj;
2n. Ada, cf>ap.ev, rjp.lv eori p.ev ifievStfs, eori
Se /cai dXrjdrjs; .
npn. "Ecrnv.
2n. "ETrerai /rf)v raurai?, o iw
S1j
eXeyop.ev,
rjSovrj Kal XvTrrj ttoXXclKls, dXrjdel Kal ifievSel S07j
Xeyco.
npn. Havv ye.
2n. Ou/cow IK
re Kal alodrjoecos Sda
p.vrjp.rjs
rjp.lv Kal to SiaSoae' eyxeipelv ylyved'2 eKaorore
C

;
npn. Kai p.dXa.
2n. TA/' ouv rjp.ds cSSe Tre/n ravra dvayKalov
rjyovp,eda loxeiv;
npn. co?
1
1

2n. YloXXdKis Ioovti rivl Troppcodev p.rj Trdvv


oacf>cos to Kadopcop,eva vp.fialveiv fiovXeodai Kpl-
veiv cf>alrjs dv ravd' dTrep opa;
npn. Oairjv dv.
2n. OvKovv to p.era tovto avros avrov ovtos
dvepoir' dv c5Se;
296
PHILEBUS
soc. You are an eager advocate of the case of
pleasure just now, Protarchus.
pro. Oh no, I merely say what I hear.
soc. Is there no difference, my friend, between
the pleasure which is connected with right opinion
and knowledge and that which often comes to each
of us with falsehood and ignorance ?
pro. There is likely to be a great difference.
soc. Then let us proceed to the contemplation of
the difference between them.
pro. Lead on as you think best.
soc. Then this is the way I lead.
pro. What way ?
soc. r_)o we agree that there is such a thing as
false opinion and also as true opinion ?
pro. There is.
soc. And, as we were saying just now, pleasure
and pain often follow them I mean true and false
opinion.
pro. Certainly.
soc. And do not opinion and the power of forming
an opinion always come to us from memory and
perception ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Do we, then, believe that our relation to these
faculties is somewhat as follows ?
pro. How ?
soc. Would you say that often when a man sees
things at a distance and not very clearly, he wishes
to distinguish between the things which he sees ?
pro. Yes, I should say so.
soc. Next, then, would he not ask himself
1
Cornarius : avoia.s BT.
dycoi'as
2
yiyved' Vat. : yiyvead' B : yiyvcrai T.
297
PLATO
npn. II cos ;
2n. Ti Trore apa eori to Trapd ttjv Trerpav tovd'
D eordvai cf>avra^6p.evov vtto
oevopcp; tivi ravr'
enrelv av tls Trpos COWTW So/cec ooi,1 toiclvtol ana
/cariScov cf>avraodevra avrco ttotI;
npn. Ti p.Tp>;
2n. 'Ap' ow /iera ravra 6 toiovtos cbs dTro-
Kpiv6p,evos av Trpos avrov eiVoi tovto, oj? eoriv
avdpcoTros, imrvxd>s elruLv ;
npn. Kai Trdvv ye.
2n. Kai Trapevexdels y av ra^' av cos cori rivaiv
Troijxevcov epyov to Kadopcop.evov dyaXp.a TrpooeiTroi.
npn.
MaAa ye.
E 2n. Kav /xeV tis y' avrco Trapfj, ra re Trpo?
avrov prjdevra evreivas els cf>o>vrjv Trpos tov Trapovra
avrd ravr' av TrdXiv cf>deyairo, /cai Adyo?

S1j
yeyovev ovtcos rore 86av eKaXovp,ev
o

;
npn. Ti pvi\v;
"Av tovto toVtov
S'

2n. apa
p.ovos Trp6s
fj

avrov2 Siavoovp.evos, evlore /cai TrXelco xpovov


excov ev avrcu Tropeverai.
npn. Ilavu p,ev oSv.
2n. Ti ovv; apa ool ^aiVerai to Trepl tovtcov
yiyvop,evov oTrep ip.ol;
npn. To ttolov;
2n. Ao/cei /ioi rore rjp.cov f/ru^1? /Ji/JAi'co nvi
r)

Trpooeoi/ceVai.
npn. co?;
Il

39 2n. 'H p.vrjp.rj rai? alodrjoeoi vp.mTrrovoa els


ravrov KaKelva a Trepi tovto eori ta Tradrjp.ara cf>al-
vovrai p.oi oxeoov olov ypdcf>eiv rjp.ajv ev rals i/ru^ai?
rore Xoyovs' /cai otov p.ev dXrjdrj ypdifirj tovto to
298
PHILEBUS
pro. What ?
"
soc. What
is that which is visible standing beside
"
the rock under a tree ? Do you not think a man
might ask himself such a question if he saw such
objects presented to his view ?
pro. To be sure.
soc. And after that our gazer might reply to
" "
himself correctly It is a man ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Or, again, perhaps he might be misled into
the belief that it was a work of some shepherds, and
then he would call the thing which he saw an image.
pro. Yes, indeed.
soc. And if some one is with him, he might
repeat aloud to his companion what he had said to
himself, and thus that which we called an opinion
now becomes a statement ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. But if he is alone when he has this thought,
he sometimes carries it about in his mind for a long
time.
pro. Undoubtedly.
soc. Well, is your view about what takes place in
such cases the same as mine ?
pro. What is yours ?
soc. I think the soul at such a time is like a book.
pro. How is that ?
soc. Memory unites with the senses, and they and
the feelings which are connected with them seem to
me almost to write words in our souls ; and when
the feeling in question writes the truth, true opinions

doKe? aoi Coisl. Sokij aoi T : Sukt)o,oi


: B.
2
aindv] avrdv T : avrb B.

299
PLATO

Trddrjp.a, 86a re dXrjdrjs Kal Xoyoi aTr' avrov vfx-


fialvovrnv dXrjdels ev rjp.lv yiyvop.evof ifievSrj S'
orav 6 roiovros Trap' rjp.lv ypap.p.arevs ypdifirj,
rdvavrla rols dXrjdeoiv dTrefirj.
B npn. Yldvv p.ev ovv SoKel p.oi, Ka IdrroSexop.ai
rd prjdevra ovtcos.
'

8rj
2n. ATroSixov Kal erepov 8rjp.iovpy6v rjp.cov
ev rais ifivxais ev rco rore xpovco yiyv6p,evov .

npn. TiVa;
sn.Zcoypdcf>ov, os p-erd r6v ypap.p.ariorrjv rd>v
Xeyop,evcov ei/coVa? ev rfj ^Xti rovrcov ypdcf>ei.
npn. Ilol?
S1j

rovrov aS Kal Trore Xeyop,ev;


2n. "Orav dTr oifiecos rivos dXXrjs alodrjoecos
rj

rd rore Soa^6p,eva Kal Xey6p.eva dTrayaycov n? rds


ro>v Soaodevrcov Kal Xexdevrcov eiKovas ev avrco
dpa ttcos. rovro ovK eori yiyvop.evov Trap' rjp.lv;
C

rj

npn. Hcf>68pa p,ev ovv.


2n.OvKovv al p.ev row dXrjdcov 8ocov Kai Xo-
ycov eiKoves dXrjdels, al 8e row ifievScov ifievSels;
npn. YlavraTraoiv.
Ei ravr
8rj

2n. opdcos elprjKap.ev, eri Kal r6Se


eTri rovrois oKeificop,eda.
npn. To Trolov;
2n. Ei Trepi p.ev rdv ovrow Kal ro>vyeyovorcov
raura rjp.lv ovrco Trdo-xeiv dvayKalov, Trepl Se rcov
p.eXXovrcov ov;
npn. Ylepl dTravro>v p,ev ovv rcov xp6vcov cooavrcos.
2n. OvKovv ai ye Sid rrjs rfivxrjs avrrjs rjSoval
D

Kal XvTrai eXex@rjo-av ev r01? Trpoodev cos Trp6 rd>v


Sid rov ocop.aros rjSovcbv Kal XvTrobv Trpoylyvoivr1 dv,
cood' rjp.lv vp.jialvei r6 Trpoxalpeiv re Kal TrpoXv-
Trelodai Trepl rov p.eXXovra xpovov elvai yiyvop,evov
;

300
PHILEBUS
and true statements are produced in us ; but when
the writer within us writes falsehoods, the resulting
opinions and statements are the opposite of true.
pro. That is my view completely, and I accept it
as stated.
soc. Then accept also the presence of another
workman in our souls at such a time.
pro. What workman ?
soc. A painter, who paints in our souls pictures to
illustrate the words which the writer has written.
pro. But how do we say he does this, and when ?
soc. When a man receives from sight or some
other sense the opinions and utterances of the
moment and afterwards beholds in his own mind the
images of those opinions and utterances. That
happens to us often enough, does it not ?
pro. It certainly does.
soc. And the images of the true opinions are
true, and those of the false are false ?
pro. Assuredly.
soc. Then if we are right about that, let us con
sider a further question.
pro. What is it ?
soc. Whether this is an inevitable experience in
relation to the present and the past, but not in
relation to the future.
pro. It is in the same relation to all kinds of time.
soc. Was it not said a while ago that the pleasures
and pains which belong to the soul alone might come
before the pleasures and pains of the body, so that
we have the pleasure and pain of anticipation, which
relate to the future ?

Trpeylyvmvr recc. : Trpoytyvoir BT.


301
PLATO
'
npn. AXrjdeorara.
Ylorepov ovv to. ypap.p.ara re /cai ^coypacf>^-
2n.
/xara, a op.iKpcp aporepov erldep.ev ev rjplv yl-
yveoOai, Trepl p.ev tov yeyovora /cai tov Trapovra
E xpovov icrrl, Trepl Se rov p.eXXovra ovK eoriv;
npn. S^oSpa ye.
2n. 'Apa ocf>6Spa Ae'yei?, 6Vi Travr' eori ravra
eAm'Se? els tov eVreira ^poVov owai, rjp,els S' ai5
Sid Travr6? tou /?iou dei yip.op,ev eXTrlScov;
npn. IlavrdVaox ow. /xev
24. sn. "Aye Srj, Trpd? roi? w elprjp.evois
/cai roSe aTroKpivai.
npn. To Trolov;
2n.
Ai'/caio? dvijp /cai evoefiqs /cai dya0d? TrdV-
rco? dp' oi5 deo^iXrjs ioriv ;
npn. Ti p.ijv;
2n. Ti Se'; dSi/cd? re /cai Travtomaoi /ca/cd? dp'
40 oi5 r0wavri'ov e'/ceiVcp;
npn. Il co? S' ou;
2n. IloAAcov py^v eXTrlScov, co? eXeyop,ev apri,
Tras avdpcoTros yep,ei;
npn. Ti S' ou;
2n. Adyoi p.rjv eloiv ev e/cdoroi? rjp.cov, d? eA-
mSa? 6vop.d^op,ev ;
npn. Nai.
Kai rd cf>avraop.ara
S1j

2n. /cai e^coypacf>rjp,eva'


/cai ri? opa TroAAd/ci? xpvo6v yiyvop.evov
eavrcp
acf>dovov /cai eTr' aura) TroAAd? rjSovds' /cai
S1j

/cai
ive^coypacf>rjp.evov avrov icf>' avrco ^ai'povra o^dSpa
/ca0opa.
npn. Ti ov;
S'
B

2n. Toutow ow Trorepa cf>cop,ev rols p,ev dyadols


302
PHILEBUS
pro. Very true.
soc. Do the writings and pictures, then, which we
imagined a little while ago to exist within us, relate
to the past and present, but not to the future ?
pro. To the future especially.
" "
soc. Do you say to the future especially be
cause they are all hopes relating to the future and
we are always filled with hopes all our lives ?
pro. Precisely.
soc. Well, here is a further question for you to
answer.
pro. What is it ?
soc. A just, pious, and good man is surely a friend
of the gods, is he not ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And an unjust and thoroughly bad man is the
reverse ?
pro. Of course.
soc. But, as we were just now saying, every man
is full of many hopes ?
pro. Yes, to be sure.
soc. And there are in all of us written words
which we call hopes ?

pro. Yes.
soc. And also the images painted there ; and
often a man sees an abundance of gold coming into
his possession, and in its train many pleasures ; and
he even sees a picture of himself enjoying himself
immensely.
pro. Yes, certainly.
soc. Shall we or shall we not say that of these
303
PLATO

co?to ttoXv ta yeypap.p.eva Traparideadai dXrjdrj Sid


to deocf>iXels elvai, tols 8e KolKols co? av to1 ttoXv
rovvavriov, r) p.rj cf>cop,ev;
npn. Kai p.d\a cf>a.Teov.
2n. OvKovv Kal rols KctKols rjSoval ye ov8ev
,t^ttov Trdpeioiv e^coypacf>rjp.evai, ifievSels 8e avral
ttov.
npn. Ti pvrjv;
C sn. dpa rjSovais tol TroXXd ol ttovrj-
^Vev8eoiv
pol xalpovoiv, ol S' dyadol tCjv dvdpumcov dXrjdeoiv.
npn. ' AvayKouorara Xeyeis.
2n. Eiox /card tou? vvv Xoyovs ifievSels iv
Sr)

rals tcov ifivxals rjSoval, p.ep.ip.rjp,evai


dvdpoyncov
p.evroi rd? dXrjdels em rd yeXoiorepa, Kal XdTrai
Be d>oavrcos.
npn. EioxV.
2n. Oi5/cow rjv Soaeiv p.ev ovtcos del tco to
TrapaTrav ooga^ovri, p.rj eTr ovoi oe p.rjoe em
yeyovooi2 p.rfi' eTr' eoop.evois2 evlore.
npn. IIdVy ye.
J) 2n. Kai rauraye r/v, oi/iai, to dTrepya^op.eva
86av ifiev8rj rore /cai to ifiev8cos Sodeiv. yap;
rj

npn. Nai.
2n. Ti ovv; ovK dvraTroooreov rals XvTrais
re Kal rjSovals ttjv tovtcov dvrlorpocf>ov eiv ev
eKelvois;
npn. Ylcos
rjv ;

2n. 'Q.s p.ev ^ai'peiv oVtoo? del tco to Trapd-


Trav omooovv Kal elnfj xalpovri, p.rj p.evroi em tols
ovoi /ir/S' em tols yeyovooiv evlore, TroXXdKis 8e
at at BT.
Stallbaum
1

<t6>
:

BT read iTrouai, eTn.yeyovbai, and eireaolitvon.


2

SO*
PHILEBUS

pictures those are for the most part true which are
presented to the good, because they are friends of
the gods, whereas those presented to the bad are for
the most part false ?
pro. Surely we must say that.
soc. Then the bad also, no less than the good,
have pleasures painted in their souls, but they .are
false pleasures.
pro. Yes, surely.
soc. Then the bad rejoice for the most part in
the false, and the good in true pleasures.
pro. That is inevitably true.
soc. According to our present view, then, there
are false pleasures in the souls of men, imitations or
caricatures of the true pleasures ; and pains likewise.
pro. There are.
soc. We saw, you remember, that he who had an
opinion at all always really had an opinion, but it
was sometimes not based upon realities, whether
present, past, or future.
pro. Certainly.
soc. And this it was, I
believe, which created false
opinion and the holding of false opinions, was it not ?
pro. Yes.
soc. Very well, must we not also grant that
pleasure and pain stand in the same relation to
realities ?
pro. What do you mean ?
soc. I mean that he who feels pleasure at all in
any way or manner always really feels pleasure, but
it is sometimes not based upon realities, whether
present or past, and often, perhaps most frequently,
VOL. Ill x 305
PLATO

/fai locos TrAeiora/ci? em rois p.rjSe p.eXXovol ttotc


yevrjoeodai.
E npn. Kal ravd' ovtcos dvayKalov, co Sco/cpa-
res, exeiv,
2n.OvKovv 6 avros Xoyos dv el'rj Trepl cf>6ficov
re Kal dvp.cov Kal Travrcov tcov tolovtcov, cos eori
Kal ifievSrj Travra to roiaura evlore;
npn. Yldvv p.ev ovv.
2n. Ti Se; Trovqpas Soa? /cai ^oijord?1 dXXios
r) ifievoels yiyvop,evas e^o/iev sITreiv;
npn. Oi5w aAAco?.
2n. Oi5S' ijSovd? y , 01/xai, Karavoovp.ev cos dXXov
41 nm rpoTrov elol Trovrjpal TrXrjv rip ifievoels elvai.
npn. Yldvv p.ev ovv tovvovtIov, co HcoKpares,
elprjKas. oxeoov yap tco ifievSei p,ev ov Trdvv
Trovqpds dv tis Xvttos re Kal rjSovds deirj, p,eydXrj
Se dXXrj Kal TroXXfj ovp.rnTrrovoas Trovrjpla.
2n. Tds p.ev tolvvv Trovrjpds rjSovds Kal Sid
Trovrjplav ovoas roiavras oXlyov vorepov epovp.ev,
dv eri SoKt} vcpv ras Se ifiev8els Kar' dXXov rpoTrov
ev rjp.lv TroXXds Kal TroXXdKis evovoas re Kal eyyiyvo -
B p.evas XeKreov. tovtco yap locos xprjoop.eda Trpos
ras Kploeis.
npn. Ylcos yap ovK; elTrep ye elolv.
2n. 'AAA', Ylpcorapxe, elol Kara ye rrjv ep.rjv.
co

tovto Se to 86yp.a ecos dv Kerjrai Trap' rjp.lv, dSvva-


tov dveXeyKrov SrjTrov ylyveodac
npn.
KaAoo?.
2n. Ylepuorcop.eda2
Sr)

25. KaddTrep ddXrjral


Trpos rovrov av tov Xoyov.

/col xpw&s BT formerly bracketed by Stallbaum


1

Kdxpriarovs Apelt.
306
PHILEBUS

upon things which will never even be realities in the


future.
pro. This also, Socrates, must inevitably be the
case.
soc. And the same may be said of fear and anger
and all that sort of thing that they are all sometimes
false ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Well, can we say that opinions become bad
or good except as they become false ?
pro. No.
soc. And we understand, I believe, that pleasures
also are not bad except by being false.
pro. No ; you have said quite the reverse of the
truth, Socrates ; for no one would be at all likely
to call pains and pleasures bad because they are
false, but because they are involved in another great
and manifold evil.
soc. Then of the evil pleasures which are such
because of evil we will speak a little later, if we
still care to do so ; but of the false pleasures we
must prove in another way that they exist and come
into existence in us often and in great numbers ;
for this may help us to reach our decisions.
pro. Yes, of course ; that is, if such pleasures
exist.
soc. But they do exist, Protarchus, in my opinion ;
however, until we have established the truth of this
opinion, it cannot be unquestioned.
pro. Good.
soc. Then let us, like athletes, approach and
grapple with this new argument.

307
PLATO
npn. "lcop.ev.
2n. 'AAAd p.rjv enrop.ev, elTrep p,ep.vqp.eda, oXlyov
C ev rdls Trpoodev, cLs orav al Xeyop.evai imdvulat
ev rjjuv ci>oi, oixa a.pa tots to ocoj/.a /cai j^co/di? rrjg
tfivxrjs roi? Tradrjp.aoi Si.elXrjTrrai.
npn. Mep.vrjp.eda, /cai Trpoepprjdrj ravra.
OvKovv to /iev emdvfiovv rjv rj ifiv)(rj taov
2n.
tov ocop.aros ivavricov eecov, to 8e rrjv dXyrj86va rj
riva Sid Trados rjSovrjv to ocop.a Tpr to Trapexpp.evov ;
npn. THv yap ovv.
to yiyvop.evov ev tovtois,
8tj
2n. HvXXoyl^ov
npn. Ae'ye.
2n. Tlyverai tolvvv, ottotov raura, d/ia
D

rj
TrapaKelodai XvTras re Kal r)Sovds, /cai tovtcov
alodrjoeis d/ia Trap' dAArjAa? evavricov ovocov
8rj

ylyveodai, o Kal vvv ecpavrj.


npn. OaiVeTai yoiV.
2n. OvKovv Kal roSe elprjrai Kal ovvcop.oXoyrj-
p.evov rjp.lv ep.Trpoodev /ceirai;
npn. To ttolov;
2n. O? to /iaAAoV re /cai ^ttov dp.cf>co tovtco
8exeodov, XvTrrj re Kal rjSovq, Kal 6Vi tcov dTrel-
pcov eirrjv.
npn. Eipijrai. ri p.rjv;
2n. Tis ow p.rjxavrj ravr opdcos Kplveodai;
npn. Hfj
8rj

Kal ttcos;
E

2n. Ei to fiovXrjp.a rjp.lv rrjs Kploecos tovtcov


iv toiovtois riai oiayvcovai ftovXerai e/cdor0re ri?
tovtcov Trpos dAA^Aa? p.elt,cov Kal rls eXcvrrcov Kal
.ns p.aXXov Kal ri? ocf>oSporepa, XvTrq re Trpo?
rjSovrjv Kal XvTrtj Trpos XvTrrjv Kal rjSovrj Trpos
rjSovr)v.
308
PHILEBUS
pro. Let us do so.
soc. We said, you may remember, a little while
ago, that when desires, as they are called, exist in
us, the soul is apart from the body and separate from
it in feelings.
pro. Iremember ; that was said.
soc. And was not the soul that which desired the
opposites of the conditions of the body and the body
that which caused pleasure or pain because of feeling ?
pro. Yes, that was the case.
soc. Then draw the conclusion as to what takes
place in these circumstances.
pro. Go on.
soc. What takes place is this : in these circum
stances pleasures and pains exist at the same time
and the sensations of opposite pleasures and pains
are present side by side simultaneously, as was made
clear just now.
pro. Yes, that is clear.
soc. And have we not also said and agreed and
settled something further ?
pro. What ?
soc. That both pleasure and pain admit of the
more and less and are of the class of the infinite.
pro. Yes, we have said that, certainly.
soc. Then what means is there of judging rightly
of this?
pro. How and in what way do you mean ?
soc. I mean to ask whether the purpose of our
judgement of these matters in such circumstances is
to recognize in each instance which of these elements
is greater or smaller or more intense, comparing pain
with pleasure, pain with pain, and pleasure with
pleasure.
309
PLATO
npn. 'AAA' eori ravrd re roiavra Kal rj fiov-
Xrjois rrjs Kploecos avrrj.
sn. Tl ovv; ev p,ev d*jiei to Troppcodev Kal
42 eyyvdev dpav ta p.eyedrj rrjv dXrjdeiav dr^avl^ei Kal
ifievSrj Troiel Sod^eiv, ev XvTrais S' dpa Kal rjSovals
ovK ecrn ravrov tovto yiyvop.evov ;
npn. IloAu p.ev ovv p.aXXov, c3 HcoKpares.
2n. 'Evavriov to vvv tco op.iKp6v epnrpoodev
8rj
yeyovev.
npn. To wolov Xeyeis;
2n. Tore p,ev al Soai ifievSels re Kal dXrjdels
aSrai yiyvop.evai ras XvTras re Kal rjSovds dp.a tov
Trap' aural?1 Tradrjp.aros dveTrlp.TrXaoav .

npn. 'AXrjdeorara.
B

2n. Nw 8e ye avral2 Sid to Troppcodev tc Kal


eyyvdev eKaorore p.erafiaXXop,evai decopeiodai, Kal
a/ia ridep.evai Trap' dAA^Aa?, ai p,ev rjooval Trapa to
XvTrrjp6v p.el^ovs cf>alvovrai Kal ofooporepai, XvTrai
aS Sia to Trap' rjSovds rovvavriov e/ceiVai?.
S'

npn. 'AvdyKrj ylyveodai to. roiaura Sid ravra.


2n. OvKovv doco p.el^ovs tcov ovocov eKarepai
Kal eXarrovs cf>alvovrai, tovto dTrorep.op.evos e/care-
pu>v3 to cf>aivop.evov dXX' ovK dv ovtc avro 6pdd>s
,

cf>aiv6p.evov epels, ovo av Trore to em tovtco1 p.ipos


C

rrjs rjSovrjs Kal Xvtttjs yiyvop.evov opdov re Kal


dXrjdes roXp.rjoeis Xeyeiv.
npn. Ov yap ovv.
2n. Tovtcov rolvvv cfrjs 6*fi6p.eda edv rrjoe

otvtoiis BT aurovs Coisl.


1

ai'Tai] adrai BT.


2

cKaripwv Schleiermacher BT.


3

eKarepov
:

tovrltl BT tovto Vulg.


4

310
PHILEBUS
pro. Certainly there are such dilferences, and that
is the purpose of our judgement.
soc. Well then, in the case of sight, seeing things
from too near at hand or from too great a distance
obscures their real sizes and causes us to have false
opinions ; and does not this same thing happen in
the case of pains and pleasures ?
pro. Yes, Socrates, even much more than in the
case of sight.
soc. Then our present conclusion is the opposite
of what we said a little while ago.
pro. To what do you refer ?
soc. A while ago these opinions, being false or
true, imbued the pains and pleasures with their own
condition of truth or falsehood.
pro. Very true.
soc. But now, because they are seen at various
and changing distances and are compared with one
another, the pleasures themselves appear greater
and more intense by comparison with the pains, and
the pains in turn, through comparison with the
pleasures, vary inversely as they.
pro. That is inevitable for the reasons you have
given.
soc. They both, then, appear greater and less
than the reality. Now if you abstract from both of
them this apparent, but unreal, excess or inferiority,
you cannot say that its appearance is true, nor again
can you have the face to alfirm that the part of
pleasure or pain which corresponds to this is true or
real.
pro. No, I cannot.
soc. Next, then, we will see whether we may not

.'511
PLATO

dTravrcop.evrjSovas Kal Xmras ifievSels eri p.aXXov t}

ravras cf>aivop,evas re /cai ovoas ev rois ti>ois,.


npn. Ild'a?

St)
/cai Trai? Ae'yei?;
26. 2n. Eipijrai ttov ttoXXdKis oti tt)? cf>v-
oecos eKaarcov Siacf>deipop,evrjs p,ev ovyKploeoi /cai
D Sia/cpi'aeoi /cai TrXrjpcooeoi Kal Kevcooeoi /cai rioiv
au^ai? /cai cf>dloeoi XvTral re /cai dXyq86ves Kal 6Sv-
vai Kal Trdvd' oTrooa roiavr' ovop.ar' e^ei u/x/Jaivei
yiyvop,eva.
npn. Nai, raura elprjrai TroXXdKis,
2n. Ei? 8e ye rrpr avrcov cf>voiv orav /ca#iort)-
rai, ravrTpi av rrjv /caraoraoiv rjSovrjv aTreSedp.eda
Trap' rjp.cov avrcov.
npn. '0pdd>s.
2n. Ti S', orav Trepl to ocop.a p.rjSev tovtcov
ij;

yiyvop.evov rjp.cov
npn. Ilore Se tout' av yevoiro, co HcoKpares;
2n. OvSev Trpos Xoyov o
c5

eo~rlv, Ylpd>rapxe,
E

ov vvv rjpov to epi,irrjp.a.


npn. Ti Sr);
2n. Aiori n^v e/xr)v ipcorrjoiv ov /ccoAuei? p,e1
Si,epeodai oe TrdXiv.
npn. Iloiav;
Ei
S'

2n. ovv p,rj ylyvoiro, io Ylpix>rapxe, cprjoco,


to tolovtov, ri Trore dvayKalov
ei;

avrov ou/i/Jai-
veiv rjp.lv;
npn. Kivovp,evov rov od>p.aros e/ca-
Mr) icf>'
Tepa cf>r}s;
2n. Outoos,.
npn. AijAov touto ye,
Sr)

c3

Sco/cpare?, co?
outc r)Son) ylyvoir av ev rco tolovtco Trore ovt' av
rIs XvTrT].
312
PHILEBUS
in another direction come upon pleasures and pains
still more false than these appearing and existing in
living beings.
pro. What pleasures and what method do you
mean ?
soc. It has been said many times that pains and
woes and aches and everything that is called by
names of that sort are caused when nature in any
instance is corrupted through combinations and dis
solutions, fillings and emptyings, increases and
diminutions.
pro. Yes, that has been said many times.
soc. And we agreed that when things are restored
to their natural condition, that restoration is pleasure.
pro. Right.
soc. But when neither of these changes takes place
in the body, what then ?
pro. When could that be the case, Socrates ?
soc. That question of yours is not to the point,
Protarchus.
pro. Why not ?
soc. Because you do not prevent my asking my
own question again.
pro. What question ?
soc. Why, Protarchus, I may say, granting that
such a condition does not arise, what would be the
necessary result if it did ?
pro. You mean if the body is not changed in
either direction ?
soc. Yes.
pro. It is clear, Socrates, that in that case there
would never be either pleasure or pain.

1
KtfXtfeis lie Burnet : KuXuec e/ii B: Kw\vaeis /ie T.
313
PLATO

2n. KaAAiar' elTres. dXXd yap, olp.ai, roSe


Xeyeis, cos del ri rovrcov dvayKalov rjpXv vp.jial-
veiv, cos ol oocf>ol cf>aoiv del yap dTravra dvco re Kal
Karco pel.
npn. Aeyovoi yap ovv, Kal SoKovol ye ov cf>av-
Xcos Xeyeuv.
2n. Ylcos yap av p.rj ovres; dXXd yap
cf>avXol ye
vTreKarrjvai tov Xoyov emcf>ep6p,evov tovtov /Jou-
Xop.ai. trj8' ovv Siavoovfxai cf>evyeiv, Kal ov p.oi
vp.cf>evye .

npn. Aeye 0TT7j.


sn. Tavra p.ev tolvvv outoj? eorco, cf>cop.ev Trpos
tovtovs. av S' dTroKpivai, Trorepov del Travra,
oTrooa Trdoxei n tcov ep.*fivxcov , tout' aloddverai to
Trdo)(ov, Kal ovt avavop.evoi Xavddvop.ev rjp.as
ainovs ovre ri tcov toiovtcov ov8ev Trdcrxovres, r)
ttdv rovvavrlov ;
npn. "ATrav SrjTrov rovvavrlov.1 oXlyov yap rd
ye roiavra XeXrjde Trdvd' ij/ia?.2
2n. Ov tolvvv KaXcos rjp2v elprjrai to vvv

ST)
prfiev, cos al p.eraftoXal Karco re Kal dvco yiyvo-
p.evai XvTras re Kal rjSovas dTrepyd^ovrai.
npn. Ti p..fjv;
sn. TQ.h" eorai KdXXiov Kal dveTriXrjTrrorepov
to Xey6p,evov.
npn. Ildi?;
2n. 'Q? al p.ev p.eydXai p.erajioXal XvTras re Kal
rjSovas Troiovoiv rjp.lv, al ai5 p.erpial re Kal
S'

opuKpal to TrapdTrav ov8erepa tovtcov.


npn. 'Opdorepov ovtcos Kelvcos, co Yio>Kpares
rj

awav SrjTrov robvarrlov add. in marg. om. BT.


T
1

rums add. vulg.


2

314
PHILEBUS
soc. Excellent. But you believe, I fancy, that
some such change must always be taking place in
us, as the philosophers1 say ; for all things are always
flowing and shifting.
pro. Yes, that is what they say, and I think their
theory is important.
soc. Of course it is, in view of their own import
ance. But I should like to avoid this argument
which is rushing at us. I am going to run away ;
come along and escape with me.
pro. What is your way of escape ?
" "
soc. We grant you all this let us say to them.
But answer me this, Protarchus, are we and all
other living beings always conscious of everything
that happens to us of our growth and all that sort
of thing or is the truth quite the reverse of that ?
pro. Quite the reverse, surely ; for we are almost
entirely unconscious oT everything of that sort.
soc. Then we were not right in saying just now
that the fluctuations and changes cause pains and
pleasures.
pro. No, certainly not.
soc. A better and more unassailable statement
would be this.
pro. What ?
soc. That the great changes cause pains and
pleasures in us, but the moderate and small ones
cause no pains or pleasures at all.
pro. That is more correct than the other state
ment, Socrates.
1
Heracleitus and his followers.
315
PLATO

ravra ovtco,

Srj
sn. OvKovv el tt&Xiv 6 vvv
prjdels filos av tjKoi.
npn. Holos;
2n. "Ov dXvTrov re /cai dvev Xapp.ovuv ecf>ap,ev
elvai.
npn. 'AXrjdeo~rara Xeyeis.

Sij
sn. 'E/c tovtcov ridcop.ev rpwrovs rjp.lv /Ji'ou?,
D eva p.ev rjovv, tov o av AvTrrjpov, tov o eva p.rj0-
erepa. ttcos dv cf>alrjs ov Trepl tovtcov;
r)

npn. OvK dXXcos eymye ravrrj, rpels elvai

r)
tovs filovs.
2n. OvKovv ovK av elrj to p.rj Xwelodal vore
ravrov to> ^ai'peiv;
npn. Hcos yap av;
2n. 'OTrorav ovv aKovcrrjs cos rjoiorov Travrc,>v
eor}v dXvTrcos SiareXelv rov filov aTravra, rl rod' vtto-
Xap.fidveis Xeyeiv tov toiovtov;
npn. 'HSu Xeyeiv cf>alverai ep.oiye ovros to p.rj
XvTreiodai.
2n. Tpicov ovtcov ovv rjpuv, cLvrivcov fiovXei,
rldei, KaXXlooiv iva 6v6p.aoi ;^>oj/xe#a, to p.ev xpv-
E

oov, to dpyvpov, rplrov Se to1 p.rjoerepa tovtcov.


S'

npn. Keirai.
To
Srj

2n. p.rjSerepa tovtcov Hod" rjpuv otta>s


daripa yivoir av, xpvaos dpyvpos;
t)

npn. Kai ttcos dv;


2n. Oi5S' apa p.eoos
filos rjSi>s XvTrrjpos
6

r)

Xeyop.evos opdcos av ttots ovt' Soaoi tis, Soa-


el

oito, ovt' Xeyoi, Xexdelrj, /cara ye tov opdov


el

Xoyov.
npn. Hcos yap dv;
t6 T: om. B.
1

316
PHILEBUS
soc. But if that
is the case, the life of which we
spoke just now would come back again.
pro. What life ?
soc. The life which we said was painless and
without joys.
pro. Very true.
soc. Let us, therefore,
assume three lives, one
pleasant, one painful, and one neither of the two ;
or do you disagree ?
pro. No, I agree to this, that there are the three
lives.
soc. Then freedom from pain would not be iden
tical with pleasure ?
pro. Certainly not.
soc. When you hear anyone say that the pleas-
antest of all things is to live all one's life without
pain, what do you understand him to mean ?
pro. I think he means that freedom from pain is
pleasure.
soc. Now let us assume that we have three things ;
no matter what they are, but let us use fine names
and call one gold, another silver, and the third neither
of the two.
pro. Agreed.
soc. Now can that which is neither become either
gold or silver ?
pro. Certainly not.
soc. Neither can that middle life of which we
spoke ever be rightly considered in opinion or called
in speech pleasant or painful, at any rate by those
who reason correctly.
pro. No, certainly not.

317
PLATO

2n. 'AAAd p.rjv, co croupe, Xeyovrcov ye ravra


44 Kal Soa^6vrcov alodavop.eda.
npn. Kal p.dXa.
2n. Horepov oSv Kal y^alpeiv oiovrai tote otolv
p.ij XvTrcovrai;
npn. tJ>acH yovv.
2n. OvKovv olovrai rore xalpew ov yap av
eXeyov ttov.
npn. Kiv8vvevei.
2n. ^FeuSrJ Sod^ovoi Trepl tov xalpeiv,
ye
elTrep xcopls roC p.rj XvTrelodai Kal tov xalpeiv rj
^vois eKarepov.
npn. Kai p.rjv xcopfe ye rjv.
2n. Ylorepov ovv atpcop.eda Trap" rjpuv ravr'
B elvai, KaddTrep dpri, rpla, fj Svo p.6va, Xvrttjv p,ev
KaKov tols dvdpd>Trois, ttjv S' dTraXXayrjv rcov Xvttcov,
avro tovto dyadov ov, rjoii Trpooayopeveodai;
npn. Iloi? vvv tovto, co Scowpare?,
S1j

27.
epcorcop,eda icf>' rjp.cov avrcov; ov yap p.avddvco,
2n. "Ovtcos yap rovs TroXep.lovs QiXrjftov rovSe,
co Ylpcorapxe, ov p.avdaveK.
npn. Aeyeis 8e avrovs rivas;
2n. Kal p.dXa Seivovs Xeyop.evovs ra Trepl cf>voiv,
01 to TrapdTrav rjSovas ov cf>aoiv elvai.
npn. Ti p.rjv;
2n. Avttcov ravras elvai 'ndoas a?
C

aTrocf>vyds,
vvv oI Trepl c$>lXrjfiov rjoovas iTrovop.d^ovoiv.
npn. Tovtols ovv rjp.as Trorepa Treldeodai vp.-
fiovXeveis, HcoKpares
ttcos, co
rj

sn. OvK, dXX' cooTrep p.dvreoi Trpooxprjodai tiai,


p.avrevop.evois oi rexvrj dXXd rivi ovoxepelq ^voecos
ovK ayevvovs Xlav p.ejliorjKorcov trjv rrjs rjSovrjs 8lf-
318
PHILEBUS
soc. But surely, my friend, we are aware of persons
who call it and consider it so.
pro. Certainly.
soc. Uo they, then, think they feel pleasure when
ever they are not in pain ?
pro. That is what they say.
soc. Then they do think they feel pleasure at
such times ; for otherwise they would not say so.
pro. Most likely.
soc. Certainly, then, they have a false opinion
about pleasure, if there is an essential dilference
between feeling pleasure and not feeling pain.
pro. And we certainly found that dilference.
soc. Then shall we adopt the view that there are,
as we said just now, three states, or that there are
only two pain, which is an evil to mankind, and
freedom from pain, which is of itself a good and is
called pleasure ?
pro. Why do we ask ourselves that question now,
Socrates ? I do not understand.
soc. No, Protarchus, for you certainly do not
understand about the enemies of our friend Philebus.
pro. Whom do you mean ?
soc. Certain men who are said to be master
thinkers about nature, and who deny the existence
of pleasures altogether.
pro. Is it possible ?
soc. They say that what Philebus and his school
call pleasures are all merely refuges from pain.
pro. Do you recommend that we adopt their
view, Socrates ?
soc. No, but that we make use of them as seers
who divine the truth, not by acquired skill, but by
some innate and not ignoble repugnance which makes

819
PLATO

vafxiv Kal vevopiiKorcov ovSev vyies, coore /cai avro


tovto avrrjs to iTraycoyov yorjrevp.a, dXX' ovx 1jS0-
D vrjv,1 elvai. tovtols p.ev oSv ravra av Trpooxprjoaio,
OKeifidp.evos eri Kal ta dXXa avTcov Svoxepdop.ara,
p.erd Se ravra ai ye /xoi SoKovoiv r)Soval dXrjdels
elvai Trevoei, va e dp.cpolv tolv Xoyoiv oKei\sdp.evoi
rrjv Svvap.iv avTrjs Trapadcop.eda Trpos rrjv Kploiv.
npn. 'Opdcos Xeyeis.
tovtovs, cooTrep vp.p.d-

8rj
2n. MeraSico/cai/iev
x0vs, Kara to rrjs oW^epeia? avrcov i^vo?. olp.ai
ydp roioVSe ri Xeyeiv aurou'?, dpxop,evovs Trodev
fiovXrjdelp,ev otovovv elSovs rrjv
el

dvcodev, cos
E

cpvoiv iSelv, olov t?jv tov oKXrjpov, Trorepov els rO.


oKXqporara dTrofiXeTrovres ovtcos av p.aXXov ovvvorj-
Trpos rd TroXXoord oKXrjporrjri;

Srj
oaip,ev Sei
r)

oe, ui Ilpd>rajO^e, KaddTrep e/ioi, Kal tovtols tols


8voxepeoiv dTroKplveodai.
npn. Ilovu p,ev ovv, /cai Xeyco ye avrols oti
Trpos rd Trpd>ra p.eyedei.
sn. OvKovv Kal to rrjs rjSovrjs yevos ISelv
el

rjvrivd ttote exei cpvoiv fiovXrjdelp.ev, ovK els ra?


45 TroAAoord? r)Sovds aTrofiXeTrreov dXX' els rds d/cpo-
,

rdra? /cai ocpo8poraras Xeyop.evas.


npn. Ila? dv ooi ravrrj ovyxcopolrj. rd vvv.
2n. TAp' ovv, ai Trpoxeipol ye alTrep /cai p,eyi-
orai tajv rjSovcov, o Xeyop.ev TroXXdKis, ai Trepl to
ocop.d eloiv avrai;
npn. Ylcos ydp ov;
2n. Ylorepov ovv Kal3 p.el^ovs elol Kal yiyvovrai
Trepl roi>s Kap.vovras iv rals voools Trepl tovs
r)

recc. riSovq BT.


1

r}$ovj}v
:

Kal om. B.
T
2

320
PHILEBUS
them hate the power of pleasure and think it so
utterly unsound that its very attractiveness is mere
trickery, not pleasure. You may make use of them
in this way, considering also their other expressions
of dislike ; and after that you shall learn of the
pleasures which seem to me to be true, in order that
we may consider the power of pleasure from both
points of view and form our judgement by comparing
them.
pro. You are right.
soc. Let us, then, consider these men as allies
and follow them in the track of their dislike. I
fancy their method would be to begin somewhere
further back and ask whether, if we wished to
discover the nature of any class take the hard, for
instance we should be more likely to learn it by
looking at the hardest things or at the least hard.
Now you, Protarchus, must reply to them as you
have been replying to me.
pro. By all means, and I say to them that we
should look at the greatest things.
soc. Then if we wished to discover what the
nature of pleasure is, we should look, not at the
smallest pleasures, but at those which are considered
most extreme and intense.
pro. Every one would agree to that now.
soc. And the commonest and greatest pleasures
are, as we have often said, those connected with the
body, are they not ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Are they greater, then, and do they become
greater in those who are ill or in those who are in
vol. hi y 321
PLATO

vyialvovras ; evXafirjdcop.ev 8e, p.rj TrpoTrercos aTro-


Kpivop.evoi ,malocop.ev tt,q. ra^a ydp ieco? cf>alp.ev
B av Trepl vyiaivovras .
npn. Ei/co? ye.
2n. Ti S'; ovx aurai tcov rjSovcov vTrepjidXXov-
oiv, cov av Kal emdvp.lai p.eyiorai Trpoylyvu>vrai1 ;
npn. Tovto p.kv dXrjdes.
2n. 'AAA' oix ol Trvperrovres Kal ev tolovtois
voorjp.aoiv exop.evoi p.aXXov Siificooi Kal p'iyovoi /cai
Travra, oTrooa Sid tov ocop.aros elcodaoi Trdoxeiv,
/xaXXov t
eVSeia vyylyvovrai Kal aTrorrXrjpovp.evcov
p.el^ovs rjoovas lcrxovoiv; r) tovto ov cf>rjoop.ev
dXrjdes elvai;
C npn. Havv p.ev ovv vvv prjdev cpaiverai.
sn. Ti ovv; 6pdcos av cf>aivolp.eda Xeyovres d>?
el ri? rd? p.eyloras rjSovas Ioelv fiovXoiro, ovK els
vyleiav dAA' ei? vooov lovras Sei oKoTrelv ; dpa 8e,
p.rj p.e r)yff Siavoovp.evov epcordv oe ei TrXelco
xalpovoiv ol ocf>68pa vooovvres tcov vyiaivovrcov ,
dAA' olov p.eyedos p.e t^relv rjSovrjs, Kal to ocf>6opa
Trepl tov toiovtov Trov Trore ylyverai e/cdorore.
vorjoai yap Selv cf>ap.ev tfvriva cfivoiv e^ei /cai riVa
D Xeyovoiv ol cf>doKovres p.rjS' elvai to Trapamav avrrjv.
npn. 'AAAd oxeSov eTrop.ai tco Xoycp oov.
28. 2n. Td^a, c5 Ylpcorapxe, oxix Tynov Sei'ei?.
aTro/c/3ivai3 yap, ev vfipei p.el^ovs rjoovds ov
TrXelovs Xeyco, tco ocf>68pa Se /cai tco p.aAXov vTrep-

exovoas opas rj ev tco od>cf>povi /Ji'co; Ae'ye Se
Trpooexcov tov vovv.
1
Trpoylyvcovroii Stephanus : TrpoayLyvovrai BT.
a
riyy] riyet BT.
*
dTri/cpicai Schleiermacher : dTroKpivci BT.
322
PHILEBUS
health ? Let us take care not to answer hastily and
fall into error. Perhaps we might say they are
greater in those who are in health.
pro. That is reasonable.
soc. Yes, but are not those pleasures the greatest
which gratify the greatest desires ?
pro. That is true.
soc. But do not people who are in a fever, or in
similar diseases, feel more intensely thirst and cold and
other bodily sulferings which they usually have ; and do
they not feel greater want, followed by greater pleasure
when their want is satisfied ? Is this true, or not ?
pro. Now that you have said it, it certainly appears
to be true.
soc. Then should we appear to be right in saying
that if we wished to discover the greatest pleasures
we should have to look, not at health, but at disease ?
Now do not imagine that I mean to ask you whether
those who are very ill have more pleasures than those
who are well, but assume that I am asking about
the greatness of pleasure, and where the greatest
intensity of such feeling normally occurs. For we
say that it is our task to discover the nature of
pleasure and what those who deny its existence
altogether say that it is.1
pro. I think I understand you.
soc. Presently, Protarchus, you will show that
more clearly, for I want you to answer a question.
Do you see greater pleasures I do not mean greater
in number, but greater in intensity and degree in
riotous living or in a life of self-restraint ? Be careful
about your reply.
This paradox means
" what those say it is who
1
deny
that it is really pleasure."
323
PLATO
npn. 'AAA' ep.adov o Xeyeis, Kal ttoXv to Sia-
cf>epov 6pco. tovs p,ev yap ooxf>povds ttov Kai 6
Trapoip.ia^6p.evos e/caorore, d to
emoxei Xoyos
E " prjSev ayav
"
Tra.paKeXev6p.evos, cS TrelOovrai' to

S6 rUv 0.cf>p6vcx>v tc K0u vfipiCrridv /xe^pi p.avias rj


ocf>oSpd r)8ovrj Karexovoa Trepifiorjrovs dTrepyd^erai.
sn. KaAcos" Kal el ye ravd' ovruos exei, 8fjXov
cos ev tivi Trovrjplq *fivxrjs Kal tov ocop.aros, dXX' ovK
ev dperrj p.eyiarai p.ev rjSoval, p.eyiorai 8e Kal XvTrai
ylyvovrai.
npn. Havv p,ev ovv.
2n. OvKovv rovrcnv rivas TrpoeXop,evov Sel oKo-
Trelodai rlva ttoti rpoTrov exovoas eXeyop,ev aura?
elvai p.eyloras.
46 npn. 'AvayKrj.
ras tcov roicovSe voorjp.drcov r)80-
8rj

2n. YiKoTrei
vds, riva Trore exovoi rporrov.
npn. Iloi'aw;
2n. Tas tcov doxrjp.6vcov, as ovs elTrop.ev 8vo-
xepels p.ioovoi TravreXcos.
npn. Holas;
sn. Olov ras rrjs ificopas laoeis rip rplfieiv, Kal
ooa roiavra, ovK dXXrjs Seop.eva cf>app.decos' tovto
to Trddos r)p.lv, Trpos ded>v, rl Trore cf>cop.ev
8rj

6j

yap
iyylyveodai Trorepov rjSovrjv XvTrrjv;
;

r)

npn. Hvp.puKrov tovto dp co HcoKpares, eoiKe


y

ylyveodal tl KaKov.
8rj

2n. Ov p,ev OiAr^Sou ye eveKa Trapedep.rjv


B

tov Adyov dAA' dvev tovtcov, Ylpcorapxe, tcov


d>

r)Sovdjv Kal tcov ravrais eTrop.ivcov, av pvtj Kar-


oif>dcooi, crxeS6v ovK av Trore 8vvalp.eda SiaKplvaodai
to vvv ^rjrovp.evov.
324
PHILEBUS
pro. I
understand you, and I see that there is a
great dilference. For the self-restrained are always
held in check by the advice of the proverbial ex
"
pression nothing too much," which guides their
actions ; but intense pleasure holds sway over the
foolish and dissolute even to the point of madness
and makes them notorious.
soc. Good ; and if that is true, it is clear that the
greatest pleasures and the greatest pains originate
in some depravity of soul and body, not in virtue.
pro. Certainly.
soc. Then we must select some of these pleasures
and see what there is about them which made us
say that they are the greatest.
pro. Yes, we must.
soc. Now see what there is about the pleasures
which are related to certain diseases.
pro. What diseases ?

soc. Repulsive diseases which the philosophers of


dislike whom we mentioned utterly abominate.
pro. What are the pleasures ?
soc. For instance, the relief of the itch and the
like by scratching, no other treatment being required.
For in Heaven's name what shall we say the feeling
is which we have in this case ? Is it pleasure or
pain ?
pro. I think, Socrates, it is a mixed evil.
soc. I did not introduce this question on Philebus'
account ; but unless we consider these pleasures and
those that follow in their train, Protarchus, we can
probably never settle the point at issue.
325
PLATO
Xipn.OvKovv Ireov em rds rovrcov vyyevels "
sn. Tds ev rfj p.lei Kouvcovovoas Xeyeis;
npn. Yldvv p.ev oSv.
zn. EiVi toCvvv p.lgeis al p,ev Kara to ocop.a iv
avrols rols ocop.aoiv, al S' avrr)s rrjs ifivxrjs *v rfj
C faxfj' rds S' av rrjs *fivxt}s Kal tov ocop.aros dv-
evprjoop,ev XvTras rjSovals pUxdeloas rore p.ev rjSovds
rd vvap.fyorepa, tots Se XvTras imKaXovp.evas .

npn. Hcos;
sn. 'OTrorav iv rfj Karaordoei ris r) rfj oiacf>dopa
rdvavrla ap.a Trddrj TrdoxHi Trore piyd>v deprjrai Kal
depp.aiv6p,ev0s ivlore ifivxrjrai, ^ryrGw, olp.ai, to p,ev
tov dTraAAdrreo#ai, to
S'

S19
exeiv, Xeyop.evov
TriKpcp yXvKv p,ep.iyp,evov, p.era 8voaTraXXaKrlas
D rrapov, dyavaKrrjoiv Kai vorepov ovvraoiv dyplav
Troiel.
npn. Kai to vvv Xeyop.evov.
p.dX' dXrjdes
2n. OvKovv al roiavrai p.lc;eis al p.ev locov

e
eloi re Kal rjSovoiv, al
S'

Xvttcov 4K tcov erepcov


TrXeiovcov
;

npn. Ylcos yap ov;


S1j

rds p,ev, orav TrXelovs XvTrai rcov


A

2n. eye

rjSovcov ylyvo>vrai rd? rr)s ifio>pas Xeyop.evas vvv
ravras elvai Kal rds rd>v yapyaXiop.d>v ottotov
8rj

eWo? to ^eov Kal to cf>Xeyp.alvov, rfj rpliftei Se /cai


fj

rfj Kvrjoei1 p.rj icf>iKvr)ral ris, rd imTroXrjs p.6vov


E

Siaxerj, tote cf>ipovres els Trvp avrd Kal els rovvav-


rlov, dTroplais p.eraftdXXovres evlore dp.rjxdvovs
,fjSovds, rore Se roivavrlov rols ivros Trpos rd rcov2
eco Ximas rjSovals vyKepaodeloas, els dTr6rep av

Heusde BT.
1

Kvilaei Kcvriaec
:

rdv Wohlntb Trpoararruv ras tuv T.


'2

tr/>6s Ta Trpbs
:

326
PHILEBUS
pro. Then we must attack this family of pleasures.
soc. You mean those which are mixed ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. Some mixtures are concerned with the body
and are in the body only, and some belong only to
the soul and are in the soul ; and we shall also find
some mingled pains and pleasures belonging both to
the soul and to the body, and these are sometimes
called pleasures, sometimes pains.
pro. How so ?
soc. Whenever, in the process of restoration or
destruction, anyone has two opposite feelings, as
we sometimes are cold, but are growing warm, or
are hot, but are growing cold, the desire of having
the one and being free from the other, the mixture
of bitter and sweet, as they say, joined with the
difficulty in getting rid of the bitter, produces im
patience and, later, wild excitement.
pro. What you say is perfectly true.
soc. And such mixtures sometimes consist of equal
pains and pleasures and sometimes contain more of
one or the other, do they not ?
pro. Of course.
soc. In the case of the mixtures in which the pains
are more than the pleasures say the itch, which
we mentioned just now, or tickling when the burn
ing inflammation is within and is not reached by the
rubbing and scratching, which separate only such
mixtures as are on the surface, sometimes by bringing
the affected parts to the fire or to something cold
we change from wretchedness to inexpressible
pleasures, and sometimes the opposition between the
internal and the external produces a mixture of pains
and pleasures, whichever happens to preponderate ;
327
PLATO

peifijj, Trapeoxovro to> ta


ot/y/ce/cpiiieVa /Ji'a Sia^eiV
47 rj ra Sia/ce/cpiixeVa ovyxelv /cai 6p.ov XvTras rjSovals
Traparidevai.
npn. 'AArjdeorara.
2n. OvKovv ortotolv ai) TrXeicov rjSovrj Kara ta1
roiaura Travra vp.p.ixdfj , to p.ev vTrop.ep.iyp.evov ttjs
Xvtttjs yapyaXl^ei re /cai r)pep.a dyavaKrelv Troiel, to
S' av trj? rjSovrjs ttoXv TrXeov eyKexvp.evov ovvrelvei
re /cai evlore Trrj8av Troiel, /cai Travrola /xev xpd>'
p,ara, Travrola 8e o^/iara, Travrola Se vvevp.ara
aTrepya^6p.evov2 Trdoav eKTrX,qiv /cai /Jod? /ict'
acf>poovvrjs evepyd^erai;
B npn. MaAa ye.
2n. Kai Ae'yeiv re, co croupe, avrov re Trepl
eavrov Troiel /cai a'AAov raurai? rai? r)Sovals
u>?

oiov dTrodvrjoKef /cai raura? ye

Srj
repTr6p.evos
Travro/naoiv del iieraSico/cei rooovrcp p.aXXov ooco
dv aKoXaororepos re /cai dcf>poveorepos d)v rvyxdvjj,
/ieyi'ora? ravras, /cai tov ev avrals
Srj

/cai KaXel
0ri /iaAictr aei3 dWa evSaip.oveorarov Kolt-
api#/ieirai.
npn. FlaWa, HcoKpares, rd ovp.fialvovra Trpos
c3

raiv ttoXXcovdvdpanrcov els 86av SieTrepavas.


C

2n. Ilepi ye rcov rjSovcov, Ylpcorapxe, tcov ev


cb

tols Koivols Tradrjp.aoiv avrov tov ocop.aros rcbv


emTroXrjs r6 /cai evr6s Kepaodevrcov Trepl 8e ow4
y

ifivxrf 0,cop.ari ravavrla vp.fidXXercu, XvTrTpi re


a/ia Trpos r)Sovrjv /cai rjSovrjv Trpos XvTrrjv, coor' els
p.lav dp.cf>orepa Kpdoiv levai, ravra ep.Trpoodev p,ev
SirjXdop,ev, d>s, orrorav* Kevcorai, TrXrjpcooecos
rd add. Par. 1809: om. BT.
1

Buttmann BT.
2

dTrepya^blxevov aTrepyabficva
:

328
PHILEBUS
this is the result of the forcible separation of com
bined elements, or the combination of those that
were separate, and the concomitant juxtaposition of
pains and pleasures.
pro. Very true. m
soc. And when the pleasure is the predominant
element in the mixture, the slight tincture of pain
tickles a man and makes him mildly impatient, or
again an excessive proportion of pleasure excites
him and sometimes even makes him leap for joy ;
it produces in him all sorts of colours, attitudes, and
pantings, and even causes great amazement and
foolish shouting, does it not ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And it makes him say of himself, and others
say of him, that he is pleased to death with these
delights, and the more unrestrained and foolish he
is, the more he always gives himself up to the pursuit
of these pleasures ; he calls them the greatest of all
tilings and coiints that man the happiest who lives
most entirely in the enjoyment of them.
pro. Socrates, you have described admirably what
happens in the case of most people.
soc. That may be, Protarchus, so far as concerns
purely bodily pleasures in which internal and external
sensations unite ; but concerning the pleasures in
which the soul and the body contribute opposite
elements, each adding pain or pleasure to the other's
pleasure or pain, so that both unite in a single
mixture concerning these I said before that when
a man is empty he desires to be filled, and rejoices

lid\iar' alel T
3
: fia\iara el B.
1
y Siv Badham ; BT. 6
^vxh Burnet : iv BT.
6
brrarav Wohlrab : ortotolv aC BT.
329
PLATO

imdvp.el, /cai eXm^cov uev xalpei, Kevovuevos Se


dXyel, ravra Se rore p.ev ovK ep.aprvpaueda, vvv 8e
D Xeyop.ev cos ifivxvs Trpos od>ua Sia^epouivrjs ev
Traoi rovrois TrXTfiei durjxdvois oScn /iii? /ua
re /cai rjSovrjs i^vp.TrLmei yevop,evrj .
XvTrrjs
npn. KivSweuei? opdorara Xeyeiv.
29. 2n. "En tolvvv rjpZv rcov ulecov XvTrrjs
re /cai rjSovrjs Xonrij iua.
npn. Iloi'a, cf>rjs;
sn. "Hv avrrjv rrjv ifivxrjv avrfj TroXXdKis Aa/i/Jd-
veiv ovyKpaoiv ecf>ap.ev.
npn. Ylcos oSv tout' auro Xeyouev;
8rj
&

2n. 'Opyr)v /cai cf>6fiov /cai Trodov /cai dprjvov


/cai epcora /cai ^Aov /cai cf>dovov /cai oua roiavra,
dp' ovK avrrjs trj? lf'vxrjs rldeoai ravras Xv,nas
rivds;
npn. "Eycoye.
2n. Oi5/cow ajJrac; rjSovuiv p.eords evprjoop.ev
a/xt^dVcov; Se6p.eda vTropuuvrjoKeodai to
r)

os t'1 icf>erjKe TroXvcf>povd Tr6/3 ^aAeTrijl"ai,2


6V re3 TtoAu yAu/ciow p.eXiros KaraXeifiouevoio,

48 /cai ra? roi? dprjvois /cai


6>
eV rrd^oi?4 ijSovd?
Aurrai? ovoas dvap,euiyp,evas;
npn. Ou/c, dAA' ourco ravrd ye /cai ou/c dAAco?
aV u/i/JaiVoi yiyvdcieva.
2n. Kai uijv /cai to? ye rpayi/cd? decoprjoeis,
orav dua xalpovres /cAdcooi, ueuvrjaai
;

npn. Ti ou;
S' S'

2n. Tijv rai?


KcoucpSlais Siddeaiv rjucov
rrjs ifivxrjs, dp' olod' cos eorn /cdV tovtols /ilis
XvTrrjs re /cai rjSovrjs;
330
PHILEBUS
in his expectation, but is pained by his emptiness,
and now I add, what I did not say at that time,
that in all these cases, which are innumerable, of
opposition between soul and body, there is one single
mixture of pain and pleasure.
pro. I believe you are quite right.
soc. One further mixture of pain and pleasure is left.
pro. What is it ?
soc. That mixture of its own feelings which we
said the soul often experiences.
pro. And what do we call this ?
soc. Do you not regard anger, fear, yearning,
mourning, love, jealousy, envy, and the like as pains
of the soul and the soul only ?
pro. I do.
soc. And shall we not find them full of ineffable
pleasures ? Or must I remind you of the anger
Which stirs a man, though very wise, to wrath,
And sweeter is than honey from the comb,

and of the pleasures mixed with pains, which we lind


in mournings and longings ?
pro. No, you need not remind me ; those things
occur just as you suggest.
soc. And you remember, too, how people enjoy
weeping at tragedies ?
pro. Yes, certainly.
soc. And are you aware of the condition of the
soul at comedies, how there also we have a mixture
of pain and pleasure ?

1
Ss t Homer {Iliad xviii. 109): ware BT.
2
t6 (bar icpil}Kev toU dup.ol$ koii rciis opyais rb Ttokvtypova
Trep x^^W^ BT : tois . . rb del. Fischer.
6s re Homer (Iliad xviii. 1 10) : ware BT.
3

4
tro0ocs Par. 1812 in marg. : tt6tois BT.
331
PLATO
npn. Karavoco.
Oi5 Trdvv
B 2n. YlavraTraoi yap ov pdSiov, co Ylpcorapxe,
ev tovtco vvvoelv to tolovtov eKaorore Trddos.
npn. (JvKovv cos y eoiKev e/ioi.
2n. Aa/Jco/iev ye p,rjv avro toctovtco p.dXXov,
oocp oKoreivorepov eoriv, Xva /cai ev dXXois paov
Karap.adelv tis oio? r ij pliv XvTrrjs re Kal rjSovrjs.
npn. Ae'yoi? av.
2n. To roi >w
Sr)
prjdev ovop.a cf>dovov Trorepa
Xvttrjv riva *fivxrjs drjoeis, ttcos;

rj
npn. Otfrco?.
2n. 'AAAd /iijv o cf>dovcov ye em KaKols tols
tcov TreXas rj86p.evos dvacf>avf)oerai.
npn. ye.
C

Hcf>6Spa
2n. KaKov pvfjv dyvoia1 /cai rjv

Sr)
Xeyop.ev
dfieXrepav eiv.
npn. T1 p.rjv;
2n. 'E/c tovtcov lSe to yeAoIov rjvriva
Sr)

cf>v-
oiv exei.
npn.
A

eye p.6vov.
2n. "Eoti Trovrjpia p.ev tis to Kecf>dXaiov,
Sr/

S'

eecos tivos eTriKXrjv Xeyop.evrf rrjs au Trdorjs


Trovqplas eorl rovvavriov Trddos ^xov ro Aeyo-
rj

p.evov vtto tcov ev AeXcf>ols ypap.p.drcov.


npn. To " yvcodi oavrov " Xeyeis, co HcoKpares
;

2n. "Eycoye. rovvavrlov p.rjv eKelvcp SrjXov oti


D

to pvrj8ap.fl yiyvd>oKeiv avrov Xey6p,evov vTro tov


ypdp.p.aros dv elrj.
npn. Ti pvqv;
sn. T2 Ylpcorapxe, Treipco Se avro tovto rpixfj
rep.veiv.
dyvma Cornarius avoia. BT.
1

332
PHILEBUS
pro. I do not quite understand.
soc. Indeed it is by no means easy, Protarchus,
to understand such a condition under those circum
stances.
pro. No ; at least I do not find it so.
soc. Well, then, let us take this under considera
tion, all the more because of its obscurity ; then
we can more readily understand the mixture of pain
and pleasure in other cases.
pro. Please go on.
soc. Would you say that envy, which was men
tioned just now, was a pain of the soul, or not ?
pro. I say it is.
soc. But certainly we see the envious man re
joicing in the misfortunes of his neighbours.
pro. Yes, very much so.
soc. Surely ignorance is an evil, as is also what
we call stupidity.
pro. Surely.
soc. Next, then, consider the nature of the ridicu
lous.
pro. Please proceed.
soc. The ridiculous is in its main aspect a kind of
vice which gives its name to a condition ; and it is
that part of vice in general which involves the
opposite of the condition mentioned in the inscription
at Delphi.
pro. You mean " Know thyself," Socrates ?
soc. Yes ; and the opposite of that, in the lan
guage of the inscription, would evidently be not to
know oneself at all.
pro. Of course.
soc. Protarchus, try to divide this into three.

333
PLATO
npn. Hfj cf>rjs; ov yap pirj Svvar6s cS.
Selv ep.e rovro oieXeodai ra vvv;

S1j
2n. Aeyeis
npn. Aeyco, Kal 8eop.ai ye Trpos rco Xeyeiv.
sn. TA.p' oSv ov tujv dyvoovvrcov avrovs Kara
tpla avdyKrj rovro to Trddos Trdorxeiv eKaorov;
npn. Il co?;
2n. Ylpcorov p.ev Kara xprjp.ara, Sod^eiv elvai
/cara rrjv avrcov ovolav.
E

TrXovoicorepov r)
npn. IloAAoi yovv elol to roiovrov Trddos evwre?.
2n. YlXelovs Se ye 01 p.el^ovs Kal /caAAiou?
aurou? Soaouoi, /cai Trdvra ooa Kara to ocop.a
elvai Siacf>ep6vro>s rrjs ovo~qs avrols dXrjdelas.
npn. Ilavu ye.
2n. IloAu Se TrXelorol ye, oip.ai, Trepl ro rpirov
elSos to rcov ev rals ifivxals1 Sirjp.aprrjKaoiv, dperrjv2
ood^ovres jieXrlovs eavrovs, ovK ovres.
npn. lLcf>68pa p.ev oSv.
ro
S'

49 2n. Toi^ dpercov dp' ov oocj>las Trepi


TrXrjdos Trdvrcos dvrexop.evov p,earov eplScov Kal
Soooocf>las eor ifievSovs3;
S' i

npn. Hcos ov;


8rj

2n. Ka/coV p,ev Trav dv ris ro roiovrov


elTrcov dpdcos dv enrol Trddos.
npn. Hcf>68pa ye.
2n. Touro rolvvv eri Siaipereov, co Ylpcorapxe,
olxa, p.eXXop,ev rov TraioiKov loovres cf>d6vov dro-
el

Trov rjSovrjs Kal XvTrrjs oifieodai puiv. Trcos ovv


tA rwv iv rah Badham rovrwv iv rah ^pv%ah
B
1

i/<vxcus
:

Stobaeus ev rah \pv\ah tovtwv T.


:

aperriv various sources dperf)s BT apery Stobaeus.


2

BT.
3

\pevdovs] ipevdovs

334
PHILEBUS
pro. How do you mean ? I am afraid I can never
do it.
soc. Then you say that I must now make the
division ?
pro. Yes, I say so, and I beg you to do so, besides.
soc. Must not all those who do not know them
selves be affected by their condition in one of three
ways ?
pro. How is that ?
soc. First in regard to wealth ; such a man thinks
he is richer than he is.
pro. Certainly a good many are affected in that
way.
soc. And there are still more who think they are
taller and handsomer than they are and that they
possess better physical qualities in general than is
the case.
pro. Certainly.
soc. But by far the greatest number, I fancy, err
in the third way, about the qualities of the soul,
thinking that they excel in virtue when they do not.
pro. Yes, most decidedly.
soc. And of all the virtues, is not wisdom the one
to which people in general lay claim, thereby filling
themselves with strife and false conceit of wisdom ?
pro. Yes, to be sure.
soc. And we should surely be right in calling all
that an evil condition.
pro. Very much so.
soc. Then this must further be divided into two
parts, if we are to gain insight into childish envy
"
with its absurd mixture of pleasure and pain. How
335
PLATO

rep.vop,ev Si^a, Xeyeis;1 Trdvres3 oTrooot, ravrrjv


B 86av Trepi caurcov avoijrco? Sod^ovoi,
Tr}v ifiev8rj
KaddTrep dTrdvrcov dvdpcoTrcov, Kal rovrcov dvayKaio-
rarov eTreoOai rols p,ev pd>p.rp> cLvtlov KoX Bvvap.iv,
toI? Se, 01/iai, rovvavrlov .
npn. 'AvdyKrj.
2n. Taurrj tolvvv SleXe, /cai ocroi /iev aurcov
eioi /xer' dodevelas roiovroi Kal dSvvaroi KarayeXd>-
p.evoi rip.copelodai, yeXoiovs rovrovs cf>doKcov elvai
rdXrjdrj cf>deyei, rovs Se 8vvarovs rip.copeiodai Kal
Icrxvpovs cf>ofiepovs3 Kal exdpovs Trpooayopeva>v
C opuorclrov rovrcov oavrco Xoyov dTro8cooeis. dyvoia*
yap rj p,ev rcov loxvpcov exdpd re Kal aloxpd ,
ffXafiepd yap Kal roi? TreXas avrrf re Kal oom
eiKoves avrrjs eloiv rj S' dodevrjs rjplv rrjv rcov
yeXolcov elXrjxe rdiv re6 Kal1 cfavoiv.
npn. 'Opdorara Ae'yei?. dAAd yap rj rcov rjSo-
vcovKal Xvttcov puis ev rovroIs ovTrco p.01. Karacf>avrjs .

2n. Trjv tolvvv rov cf>dovov Xafie Svvap.iv


Trpcorov.
npn. A eye p.6vov.
D 2n. Avtttj ris dSiKos eorl ttov Kal rjSovrj;
npn. Tovro p,ev dvayKrj.
2n. OvKovv eVl p.ev roi? row exdpow KaKois
ovt aSiKov ovre cf>dovepov eari to xalpeiv;
npn. Ti p.rjv;
2n. Ta 8e ye rcov cf>lXcov opcovraseoriv ore
KaKa ym Ximelodai, xalpeiv Se, dp' ovK d8iKov eoriv;
npn. Hcos S' ov;
1
xfis . . \iyeis ; given to Socrates T (after t adds val
above the line) : to Protarchus B.
2
travres kL to Socrates Stallbaura : to Protarchus BT.
3
hxvpovs 0o/?epous Vahlen :
0o/3e/>oi>s Kal laxvpobs BT.
336
PHILEBUS
shall we divide it," do you say ? All who have this
false and foolish conceit of themselves fall, like the
rest of mankind, into two classes : some necessarily
have strength and power, others, as I believe, the
reverse.
pro. Yes, necessarily.
soc. Make the division, then, on that principle ;
those of them who have this false conceit and are
weak and unable to revenge themselves when they
are laughed at you may truly call ridiculous, but
those who are strong and able to revenge them
selves you will define most correctly to yourself by
calling them powerful, terrible, and hateful, for
ignorance in the powerful is hateful and infamous
since whether real or feigned it injures their neigh
bours but ignorance in the weak appears to us as
naturally ridiculous.
pro. Quite right. But the mixture of pleasure
and pain in all this is not yet clear to me.
soc. First, then, take up the nature of envy.
pro. Go on.
soc. Is envy a kind of unrighteous pain and also
a pleasure ?
pro. Undoubtedly.
soc. But it is neither wrong nor envious to rejoice
in the misfortunes of our enemies, is it ?
pro. No, of course not.
soc. But when people sometimes see the mis
fortunes of their friends and rejoice instead of
grieving, is not that wrong ?
pro. Of course it is.
1
dyvoia Cornarius : &voia BT.
avrri Heusde : aiirri BT.
6

6
Te] ye B. r
ra^iv . . Kal om. T.
vol. in z 337
PLATO

2n. OvKovv rrjv ayvoiav1 eiTrop.ev ori KolKov


Trdoiv;
npn. 'Op#co?.
2n. Trjv ovv tcov cf>lXcov Soooocf>lav Kal 8oo-

Srj
E KaXlav /cai ooa vvv SirjXdofxev, ev rpiol Xeyovres
eiSeoi ylyveodai, yeXola p.ev oTrdoa dodevrj, p.iorjra
S'

orrooa eppcop.eva, cf>cop.ev2 /irj cf>d>p.ev dTrep el'nov

r)
apri, rrjv ro>v cf>lXcOv eiv rclvtrjv orav exrj ris rrjv
afiXafi toI? dXXois yeXolav elvai;
rj

npn. Havv ye.


2n. KolKov
S'

ovx 6p.oXoyovp,ev avrrjv ayvoiav1


ye ovoav elvai;
npn. Sc^oSpa ye.
2n. Xai'po/iev Se Xvnovp.eda, orav eTr' avrfj
T)

yeXd>p.ev;
50
2n. 'HSovr)v Se em rois" tcov cf>lXiov KaKois, ov
ovov ecf>ap.ev elvai tov tovto dTrepya^op,evov

;
npn. 'AvdyKrj.
2n. TeXcovras dpa rjp.as em roi? ruiv cf>lXcov
yeXolois cf>rjolv Xoyos, Kepavvvvras rjSovrjv aS
6

cf>d6vco, XvTrrj rrjv rjSovrjv vyKepavvvvai, tov yap


ovov cbp.oXoyrjodai Xvtttjv rrjs rfivxrjs rjpXv TrdXai,
to Se yeXdv rjSovrjv, ap.a ylyveodai Se tovtco3 ev
tovtois rols xpov0is,
npn. 'AXrjdrj.
8rj

2n. Mrjvvei
B

vvv Xoyos rjp.iv ev dprjvois


6

re Kal ev rpaycp8iais Kai Kcop.cpSiais p.rj tols


,4

Ayvoiav Cornarius avoiav BT.


1

- cpCiinevcorr. Ven. 189 0111. BT.


:

tovtwBadham tovto BT.


3

Kal KUliwdiais add. Hermann.


4

338
PHILEBUS

soc. And we said that ignorance was an evil to


every one, did we not ?
pro. True.
soc. Then the false conceits of our friends con
cerning their wisdom, their beauty, and their other
qualities which we mentioned just now, saying that
they belong to three classes, are ridiculous when they
are weak, but hateful when they are powerful.
Shall we, or shall we not, affirm that, as I said just
now, this state of mind when possessed in its harmless
form by any of our friends, is ridiculous in the eyes
of others ?
pro. Certainly it is ridiculous.
soc. And do we not agree that ignorance is in
itself a misfortune ?
pro. Yes, a great one.
soc. And do we feel pleasure or pain when we
laugh at it ?
pro. Pleasure, evidently.
soc. Did we not say that pleasure in the mis
fortunes of friends was caused by envy ?
pro. There can be no other cause.
soc. Then our argument declares that when we
laugh at the ridiculous qualities of our friends, we
mix pleasure with pain, since we mix it with envy ;
for we have agreed all along that envy is a pain of
the soul, and that laughter is a pleasure, yet these
two are present at the same time on such occasions.
pro. True.
soc. So now our argument shows that in mourn
ings and tragedies and comedies, not merely on the
339
PLATO

8pdp.aoi p.6vov dXXd /cai rfj rov jilov u/iTro,07j


rpaycoSia /cai Kcop.coola, XvTras rjoovals dcia Ke-
pdvvvodai, /cai iv aAAoi?

S1j
p,vpiois.
npn. 'A8vvarov p.rj op.oXoyelv ravra,

a)
Sco/cjoa-
res, /cai ris rdvavrla.
el

cf>iXoveiKol Trdvv Trpos


30. 2n. 'Opyrjv p.rjv /cai Trodov /cai dprjvov
/cai cf>ofiov /cai epcora /cai ^Aov /cai cf>d6vov Trpovde-
cie(?a /cai 0Tr00x1 roiaCra, ev evprjoeiv
C

01? ecf>ap.ev

p.iyvvp.eva rd vvv TroAAd/ci? Aeyd/ieva. yap;

rj
npn. Nai.
2n. Mav0dVo/iev ow ori dprjvov Trepi /cai r^>#d-
vou /cai dpy/j? Trdvra iorl rd vvv

St)
SiaTrepavdevra

;
npn. Hcos yap ov p.avddvop.ev
;
2n. OvKovv TroAAd eri rd Aowa;
npn. Kai TrdVu ye.
Aid rl
St)

2n. p.dXiod' vTroXafifidveis /ie Selai


croi rrjv iv rfj Kcop.coola puiv; dp' ov Trlorecos ^dpiv,
ori r1jv ye iv roi? ^o/Soi? /cai epcooi /cai roi? dAAoi?
D

pdSiov Kpaoiv eViSeiar Xafiovra Se rovro Trapd


oavrco /ie 11rj/ceri eV e/ceiva idVra Seiv /x1j-
dcf>elvai
/cweiv tou? Adyou?, dAA aTrAai? Xafielv rovro, ori
/cai ocop.a dvev ^ivx^s /cai i/w^T) dveu ocop.aros /cai
Koivfj iier' dXXrjXiov eV roi? Tradrjp.aoi p.eord iori
ovyKeKpap,evrjs rjSovrjs XvTrais; vvv ovv Xeye, Trorepa
d^lrjs /ie /ieoa? Tronqoeis vvKras elTrcov 8e
rj

op.iKpd oi/iai' /ie" rovrcov


oov reveodai p,edeival
yap dTrdvrcov avpiov edeXrfoco ooi Xoyov Sovvai, rd
E

340
PHILEBUS

stage, but in all the tragedy and comedy of life,


and in countless other ways, pain is mixed with
pleasure.
pro. It is impossible not to agree with that,
Socrates, even though one be most eager to main
tain the opposite opinion.
soc. Again we mentioned anger, yearning, mourn
ing, love, jealousy, envy, and the like, as conditions
in which we should find a mixture of the two elements
we have now often named, did we not ?
pro. Yes.
soc. And we understand that all the details I
have been describing just now are concerned only
with sorrow and envy and anger ?
pro. Of course we understand that.
soc. Then there are still many others of those
conditions left for us to discuss.
pro. Yes, very many.
soc. Now why do you particularly suppose I
pointed out to you the mixture of pain and pleasure
in comedy ? Was it not for the sake of convincing
you, because it is easy to show the mixture in love
and fear and the rest, and because I thought that
when you had made this example your own, you would
relieve me from the necessity of discussing those
other conditions in detail, and would simply accept
the fact that in the alfections of the body apart
from the soul, of the soul apart from the body, and
of the two in common, there are plentiful mixtures
of pain and pleasure ? So tell me ; will you let me
olf, or will you keep on till midnight ? But I think
I need say only a few words to induce you to let
me olf. I will agree to give you an account of all
these matters to-morrow, but now I wish to steer
341
PLATO
vvv Se em rd Xoltta j}ovXop.ai oreAAeo^ai Tr/30? tT)v
Kploiv rjv OiAri/Jo? emrarrei.
npn. KaAco? elTres, d> HcoKpares' dAA' doa
AoiTrd rjj>.lv SieijeXde 0TTr7 col cf>iXov.
31. 2n. Kara rolvvv p.erd ras pnxdeloas
cf>voiv
rjSovas vtto S^ tivo? dvay/oj? em rd? dp.iKrovs
Tropevolp.ed' av ev toi /iepei.
npn. KaAAior' enres.
sn. 'Eyco
Sr)
Treipdoop.ai p.erafiaXcov orjp.alveiv
rjpuv avrds. roi? yap cf>doKovoi Xvttcov elvai
TravXav Trdoas rd? t1Sovd? oi5 TrdVu Tre0? TreWop.ai,
dAA' oVep 61Tr0v, /cara^pcu/iai Trpo? to
p.dprvoi
rivd? ijSovd? eivai SoKovctos, ovoas

S'
ovoap.d>s,
Kal p.eydXas irepas rivds d/ia wai TroAAd? cf>avra-
odeloas, eivai
S'

aura? ovp.Trecf>vpp.evas 6p.ov XvTrais


re /cai dvaTra!Jct6oiv oSuvd>v rolv p.eylorcov Trepl re
ocop.aros Kal i/ru^^S' aTroplas.
npn. ai5 rlvas, co UcoKpares, vtto-
S'

'AAr)0ei?
Xap.fidvcov opdd>s tls oiavooir' dv;
2n. Td? Trepi re rd KaXd Xey6p,eva xpcop.ara
Kal Trepl rd oxjjl^ara Kal tcov oop.d>v rd? TrXeioras
Kal ra? ruV cf>doyycov Kal ooa ras eVSei'a? dvaiodrj-
rovs exovra Kal dXvTrovs rds TrXrjpdxteis alodrjrds
Kai rjoeias Kadapds Xvtto>v TrapaSiScoow.
npn. ravra, av Xiyop,ev
ST)

Ylcos co Soo/cpare?,
ovtcos;
2n. Yldvv p,ev ovv oiiK evdvs SrjXd ioriv a
Xeyco, Treipariov p.rjv SrjXovv. ct^ij/iarcov re yap
KdXXos1 ovx orrep dv vTroXdfioiev ol tto?^Xoi TreipoijU.ai
vvv Xeyeiv, olov2 ^cocov tivcdv coypa^rriidrow, aXX
rj

vulg.
T

KaXXos /caXiSs K&KhovS


1

olov T: B.
f)

342
PHILEBUS
that are
my bark towards the remaining points
demands.
needful for the judgement which Philebus
pro. Good, Socrates ; just finish what remains in
any way you please.
we should
soc. Then after the mixed pleasures
in turn to
naturally and almost of necessity proceed
the unmixed.
pro. Very good.
soc. So I will turn to them
and try to explain
for I do not in the least agree with
those
them ;
surcease from
who say that all pleasures are merely
pain, but, as I said, I use them
as witnesses to prove
not in any
that some pleasures are apparent, but
others which appear
way real, and that there are
are really mixed
to be both great and numerous, but
cessations of the greatest
up with pains and with
and soul.
pains and distresses of body
pro. But what pleasures, Socrates, may rightly
be considered true ?
are called beaotifol
soc. Those arising from what
colours, or from forms, most of those that arise from
all those the want of
odours and sounds, in short
the satisfaction
which is unfelt and painless, whereas
the senses, pleasant,
furnished by them is felt by
and unmixed with pain.
pro. Once more, Socrates, what do you mean by
this ?
not clear at the
soc. My meaning is certainly
make it so. For
first glance, and I must try to
form, I am trying to express,
when I say beauty of
understand by the
not what most people would
of paintings,
words, such as the beauty of animals or
343
PLATO

evdv n Xeyco, cf>rjolv 6 Xoyos, /cai Trepuf>epes /cai aTr6


rd re rols ropvois yiyvop,eva eTrweSa re

S1j
tovtcov
oreped /cai rd rols Kavooi /cai ycovlais,

el
/cai p.ov
[lCivddveiS. raura y6p ovK elvai rrpos ti kCLXol
Xeyco, KadaTrep dXXa, dXX ael /caAo Kad aura
Trecf>vKevai /cai rivas rjSovds oiKelas ^xeiv> ovSev
rai? to>v Kvrjoecov1 Trpoocf>epels' /cai xpcop.ara

8rj
tovtov tov tvTrov exovra KaXd /cai rjSovds. dAA'
apa p.avddvop.ev, Trcos;
rj
npn. Heipcop.ai p,ev, co Sco/cpares" Treipddrjri Se
/ca1 ov oacf>eorepov en Xeyeiv.
8rj

2n. Aeyco ij^a?2 tcov cf>doyycov rds Xelas /cai


Xap.Trpds rds ev ri Kadapov leloas3 p.eXos, ov Trpos
erepov KaXds dXX' avrds Kad' avrds eivai, /cai tov
tcov vp.cf>vrovs rjSovds eTrop.evas.
npn. "Eon ydp ovv /cai tovto.
2n. To ras 6op.ds tjttov p,ev tovtcov
Se Tre/Di
delov yevos rjSovcov to 8e p.r\ ovp,p,ep.l'xdai ev
avrals^dvayKalovs XvTras, /cai 0TtTj toCto /cai eV
otoo rvyxdvei yeyovos rjp.iv, tout' e/ceiVoi? rldrjui
dvrlorpocf>ov dTrav. dXX' Karavoels, ravra
el
,

elSrj Svo cov Xeyop.ev1 rjSovcov.


npn. Karavoco.
"Eti rolvvv tovtols Trpoodcop.ev
Srj

2n. ras
to p.adrjp.ara rjSovds, apa SoKovolv
el

Trepl rjp.lv
aural Trelvas p.ev p.rj exeiv tov p.avddveiv p.rjSe Sia.
e

p.adrjp.arcov Treivrw dXyrj86vas dpxrjs yiyvop,evas.


npn. 'AAA' ovtco tjvvSoKel.

Kvrjaeuiv Heusde BT.


1

Kivriaewv
:

rjxis Bury rds BT.


2

Ulaas (sic) lovaas (sic) B.


T
3

&v \iyo^v Jackson: \eyo^vuv BT.


4

344
PHILEBUS
but I mean, says the argument, the straight line
and the circle and the plane and solid figures formed
from these by turning-lathes and rulers and patterns
of angles ; perhaps you understand. For I assert
that the beauty of these is not relative, like that of
other things, but they are always absolutely beautiful
by nature and have peculiar pleasures in no way
subject to comparison with the pleasures of scratch
ing ; and there are colours which possess beauty
and pleasures of this character. Do you understand ?
pro. I am trying to do so, Socrates ; and I hope
you also will try to make your meaning still clearer.
soc. I mean that those sounds which are smooth
and clear and send forth a single pure note are
beautiful, not relatively, but absolutely, and that
there are pleasures which pertain to these by nature
and result from them.
pro. Yes, that also is true.
soc. The pleasures of smell are a less divine class ;
but they have no necessary pains mixed with them,
and wherever and in whatever we find this freedom
from pain, I regard it always as a mark of similarity
to those other pleasures. These, then, are two
classes of the pleasures of which I am speaking. Do
you understand me ?
pro. I understand.
soc. And further let us add to these the pleasures
of knowledge, if they appear to us not to have
hunger for knowledge or pangs of such hunger as
their source.
pro. I agree to that
345
PLATO

2n. Ti Se; p.adrjp.drcov TrXrjpcodeloiv1 edv vorepov


dTrojioXal Sid rrjs Xrjdrjs ylyvcovrai, Kadopas tlvos ev
avrals dXyqSovas;
npn. Ou ti
cf>voei ye, dXX kv riol Xoyiap.ois rov
B Tradrjjiaros,2 orav ris oreprjdels XvTrrjdfj Sid rrjv
xpelav.
Sn. Kai p.rjv, co p.aKapie, vvv ye rjp.els avrd rd
rrjs cpvoecos p.6vov Tradrjp.ara xcopis rov Xoyiap.ov
8iaTrepalvop,ev.
npn. 'AXrjdrj tolvvv Xeyeis ori ^copi? XvTrrjs
rjp.lv Xrjdrj ylyverai eKaorore ev rols p.adrjp.aoiv.
2n. Tavras rolvvv rds rcov p.adrjp.drcov rfiovds
dp.iKrovs re elvai XvTrais pTjreov Kal ov8ap.cos rcov
ttoXXcov dvdpcoTrcov dXXd rcov ocf>68pa oXlycov.
npn. Il co?
yap ov prjreov;
C 32. 2n. OvKovv ore p,erplcos 1jS1j SiaKeKplp,eda
xcopls rds re Kadapds rjSovas Kal rd? cr^eSov
aKaddprovs opdcos av Xexdeioas, Trpoodcop,ev rco
Xoyco rals p,ev o^o8pals rjSovals dp,erplav, rais Se
p.r> rovvavrlov ep.p,erplav Kal rd?3 to p,eya Kal to

ocf>oSp6v av Se^o|ieva?4 Kal TroXXdKis Kal 6XiyaKis


yiyvop,evas roiavras5 tov dTrelpov ye eKelvov /cai
rjrrov Kal p.aXXov Sid re ocop.aros Kal ^\rjs cf>epo-
jy p,evov dcop.eve avras7 elvai yivovs, rds 8e p.rj rcov
ep,p,erpcov.
npn. 'Opd6rara Xeyeis, co HcoKpares.
2n. "Eti rolvvv Trp6s rovrois p,erd ravra r68e
avrcov Siadeareov.s
npn. To ttolov;

1
Tr\,i}pw8elaiv Schiitz: Tr\,r}pwdcia(ov BT.
Tradr}fiaroS Gt liadrjfiaros BT.
2
:
3
Tds add. Stallbaum.
346
PHILEBUS

soc. Well, if men are full of knowledge and then


lose it through forgetfulness, do you see any pains
in the losses ?
pro. Not by their inherent nature, but sometimes
there is pain in reflecting on the event, when a man
who has lost knowledge is pained by the lack of it.
soc. True, my dear fellow, but just at present we
are recounting natural feelings only, not reflection.
pro. Then you are right in saying that we feel
no pain in the loss of knowledge.
soc. Then we may say that these pleasures of
knowledge are unmixed with pain and are felt not
by the many but only by very few.
pro. Yes, certainly.
soc. And now that we have fairly well separated
the pure pleasures and those which may be pretty
correctly called impure, let us add the further state
ment that the intense pleasures are without measure
and those of the opposite sort have measure ; those
which admit of greatness and intensity and are often
or seldom great or intense we shall assign to the
class of the infinite, which circulates more or' less
freely through the body and soul alike, and the others
we shall assign to the class of the limited.
pro. Quite right, Socrates.
soc. There is still another question about them to
be considered.
pro. What is it ?

5exo^xas add. Stallbaum (Ficinus).


4

6
roiavras r?js BT : xf/s bracketed by Stallbaum (Ste.
phanus).
0
d>na> Stallbaum : Trpoaddu.ev BT.
T
auras corr. Veil. 189 : aurais BT.
8
diaBeariov corr. Ven. 159 : dcaderiov BT.
347
PLATO

2n. Tl ttotc xprj cf>avai Trpos dXrjdeiav eivai; to


Kadapov re Kal elXiKpives r) to ocf>68pa re Kal to
ttoXv Kal to /ie'ya Kal to iKavov;
npn. Ti Ttot' dpa, co TiuoKpares, ipcor&s fiovXo-
p.evos;
2n.MijSeV, co Ylpd>rapxe, emXelTreiv eXeyxcov
E rjSovrjs r6 Kal eTriorij/iij?, ei to p.ev dp' avrcov e/ca-
repov Kadapov iori, to S' ou Kadapov, lva Kadapov
eKarepov lov els trjv Kploiv e/ioi Kal ool Kal vvdTraoi
roloSe pacu Trapexrj ttjv Kpioiv.
npn. 'Opdorara.
2n. "Mi Srj, Trepl Trdvrcov ooa Kadapd yevrj
Xeyop.ev, ovtcooI Siavorjdcop.ev TrpoeXop.evoi Trpcorov
avrcov ev ti oKoTrcop,ev .
53 npn. Tl ovv TrpoeXcop.eda;
2X1. To XkvKov iv tois Trpcorov, el fiovXei, dea-
od>p.eda yevos.
npn. Hdvv p.ev oSv.
XQ. Ilai? ovv dv XevKov Kal tls Kadaporrjs rjpM>
Trorepa to p.iyiorov re Kal TrXelorov r) to d/cpa-
reorarov, ev cb xpdop.aros p.rjSep.la p.olpa dXXrj p.rjSe-
vos ivelrj;
npn. ArjXov ori to p.dXiora elXiKpives ov.
2n. 'Opdcos. dp' ovv ov tovto dXrjdeorarov, co
KdXXiorov tcov XevKujv
S1j

Ylpcorapxe, Kal dp.a


Trdvrcov drjoop.ev, dXX ov to TrXelorov ov8e to
J5

p,eyiarov;
npn. 'Opdorara ye.
2n. /ii/cpov dpa Kadapov XevKov p.ep.iyp.evov
ttoXXov XevKov XevKorepov dp.a Kal KdXXiov Kal dXrj-
diorepov edv cf>uop,ev ylyveodai, TravraTraoiv epovp,ev
opdcos.
348
PHILEBUS
soc. What kind of thing is most closely related to
truth ? The pure and unadulterated, or the violent,
the widespread, the great, and the sulficient ?
pro. What is your object, Socrates, in asking that
question ?
soc. My object, Protarchus, is to leave no gap in
my test of pleasure and knowledge, if some part of
each of them is pure and some part impure, in order
that each of them may olfer itself for judgement in
a condition of purity, and thus make the judgement
easier for you and me and all our audience.
pro. Quite right.
soc. Very well, let us adopt that point of view
towards all the classes which we call pure. First let
us select one of them and examine it.
pro. Which shall we select ?
soc. Let us first, if agreeable to you, consider
whiteness.
pro. By all means.
soc. How can we have purity in whiteness, and
what purity ? Is it the greatest and most wide
spread, or the most unmixed, that in which there is
no trace of any other colour ?
pro. Clearly it is the most unadulterated.
soc. Right. Shall we not, then, Protarchus, de
clare that this, and not the most numerous or the
greatest, is both the truest and the most beautiful
of all whitenesses ?
pro. Quite right.
soc. Then we shall be perfectly right in saying
that a little pure white is whiter and more beautiful
and truer than a great deal of mixed white.

349
PLATO
npn. 'Opdorara jxev oSv.
Tl

Srj
2n. ovv ; ov ttov ttoXXcov 8erjo6p,eda Trapa-
Seiy/idVcov tolovtcov em tov rrjs rjSovrjs Trepi Xoyov,
dXX dp/cei voelv rjjilv avrodev cos dpa /cai vp.Traoa
rjSovrj op.iKpd p.eydXrjs Kal oXiyrj TroXXrjs, Kadapd
Q

XvTnqs, rjSlcov Kal dXrjdeorepa Kal KaXXlcov ylyvoir'


dv.
npn. Sc^oSpa .jxev ovv, Kai to ye TrapdSeiy/xa
iKavov.
2n. Ti Se to roioVSe; dpa Trepi rjSovrjs oVK
aKrjKoap.ev cos del yeveoIs ioriv, ovola Se oVK eori
to TrapdTrav rjSovrjs; Kopufiol yap rives av tovtov

8rj
rov Adyov eVi^eipouai p.rjvveiv rjpuv, ols Sei xdpiv
fyeiv.
npn. Ti
Srj;
2n. Aiarrepavoyiai' ooi rovr avro eTravepcorcov,
J) co Hpcorapxe cf>lXe.
npn. Ae'ye /cai epcLra p.6vov.
'EoroV
2n. rive Svo, to avro
S^

33. p.ev
Kad' avro, to Se del ecf>i,ep.evov dXXov.
npn. Ile0? toutco Kal rlve Xeyeis;
To p.ev oep.vorarov del TrecbvKos, to
S'
2n.
eXXnres e/ceiVou.
npn.Ae'y' eVi oacf>eorepov .
2n. IlaiSi/cd ttov KaXd Kal dyadd redecoprjKap.ev
ap.a /cai epaoras av8peiovs avru>v.
npn. Hcbo8pa ye.
2n. ToirToi? rolvvv eoiKora Svolv ovol Sif dAAa
^rei Kara Trdvd' ooa Xeyop.ev eivai.
E

npn. To rpirov er epd>;1 Xeye oa^beorepov


c3
,

Sco/cpare?, ti Ae'yei?.
o

350
PHILEBUS
pro. Perfectly right.
soc. Well then, we shall have no need of many
such examples in our discussion of pleasure ; we
see well enough from this one that any pleasure,
however small or infrequent, if uncontaminated with
pain, is pleasanter and more beautiful than a great or
often repeated pleasure without purity.
pro. Most certainly ; and the example is sufficient.
soc. Here is another point. Have we not often
heard it said of pleasure that it is always a process
or generation and that there is no state or existence
of pleasure ? There are some clever people who try
to prove this theory to us, and we ought to be grateful
to them.
pro. Well, what then ?
soc. I will explain this whole matter, Protarchus,
by asking questions.
pro. Go on ; ask your questions.
soc. There are two parts of existence, the one
seli-existent, the other always desiring something
else.
pro. What do you mean ? What are these two ?
soc. The one is by nature more imposing, the
other inferior.
pro. Speak still more plainly.
soc. We have seen beloved boys who are fair and
good, and brave lovers of them.
pro. Yes, no doubt of it.
soc. Try to find another pair like these in all the
relations we are speaking of.
pro. Must I say it a third time ? Please tell your
meaning more plainly, Socrates.
1
to rpirov 'ct ipCi ; Hadhara : to rpWov cripip BT, giving
the words to Socrates.
351
PLATO

2n. Oi5SeV ri ttoiKlXov, 6j Hpcorapxe' dAA' d


Adyo? epeoxrjXel jaw, Ae'yei S' 6'ti to /xev eveKa rov
row dvrcov eor del, to S' ov xdpiv eKaorore to nvo?
eveKa yiyvouevov del ylyverai.
npn. jVldyi? eaadov Si to TroAAa/fis Ae^0ijvai.
2n. TeE^a S' iaoo?, o) Trai, p.aXXov p.adrjoop.eda
54 TrpoeXdovros rov Xoyov.
npn. Ti' yap ou;
2n. Auo
Srj

raSe erepa Ad/Jco/xev.


npn. IToia;
2n. "Ev /xeV ri yiveoiv ttovta>v, rTpr Se oucti'av
erepov ev.
npn. Auo aTrooexop.al oov ravra, ovolav /cai
yeveoiv.
2n. 'Opdorara. Trorepov ovv rovrcov eveKa
Trorepov, rrjv yeveoiv ovalas eveKa cf>djp.ev rrjv

rj
ovolav elvai yeveoecos eveKa;
npn. ToCto o Trpooayopever ai ovola
el
yeveoecos
eveKa rovr eoriv oTrep eorl, vvv Trvvddvei;
2n. OaiVo/xai.
npn. Ylpos decov roidvSe2
B

ap'1 eTravepcoras p.e


ri; Ae'y', c33 Ylpcorapxe, jwl, Trorepa ttXoIcov vav-
Trrjylav eveKa cf>rjs ylyveodai p.aXXov TrXola eveKa
rj

vavTrrjylas, Kai Trdvd' oTrooa roiavr' eorl;2


2n. Ae'yco rovr' avro,
d>

Ylpcorapxe.
npn. Ti ovv ovK avros dTreKplvco oavrco, Sco-
c3

Kpares;
2n. Oi5Sev o ri ov, oii
/ieVroi rov Adyou ovp.-
p.erexe.

Badham: Hp hv BT.
1

Hp'
roibvbe . . imiv given to Protarchus Badham to
2

Socrates BT.
352
PHILEBUS
soc. It is
no riddle, Protarchus ; the talk is merely
jesting with us and means that one part of existences
always exists for the sake of something, and the
other part is that for the sake of which the former
is always coming into being.
pho. I can hardly understand after all your re
petition.
soc. Perhaps, my boy, you will understand better
as the discussion proceeds.
pro. I hope so.
soc. Let us take another pair.
pro. What are they ?
soc. One is the generation of all things (the
process of coming into being), the other is existence
or being.
pro. Iaccept your two, generation and being.
soc. Quite right. Now which of these shall we
say is for the sake of the other, generation for the
sake of being, or being for the sake of generation ?
pro. You are now asking whether that which is
called being is what it is for the sake of generation ?
soc. Yes, plainly.
pro. For Heaven's sake, is this the kind of ques
"
tion you keep asking me, Tell me, Protarchus,
whether you think shipbuilding is for the sake of
ships, or ships for the sake of shipbuilding," and all
that sort of thing ?

soc. Yes, that is just what mean, Protarchus. I


pro. Then why did you not answer it yourself,
Socrates ?
soc. There is no reason why I should not ; but I
want you to take part in the discussion.

3
\iy' & Badham : \iya i> BT.
vol. in 2 A 353
PLATO
npn. Yldvv p.ev ovv.

Srj
2n. Oij/u yeveoecos jxev eveKa cfxipp.aKa re
Kal Trdvra dpyava Kal Traoav vXrjv Traparldeodai
C

ovolas tivos
TtCLolv, iKclcjTrjv Se yeveoiv aXKrjv aXhrjs
eKdcrrrjs eveKa ylyveodai, vpnraoav 8e yeveoiv ovolas
eveKa ylyveod ai ijvpnrdo-rjs ,
npn.
lLacf>eorara p.ev ovv.
2n. OvKovv rjSovq ye, elTrep yeveols eoriv,
eveKa twos ovolas dvdyKrjs ylyvoir dv.

e
npn. Ti p.rjv;
2n. To ye p.rjv ov eveKa to eveKa tov yiyvo-
p.evov del ylyvoir' dv, ev rjj tov dyadov p.olpa eKeivo
eori, to Se tivos eveKa yiyvop.evov els dXXrjv, co

dpiore, p.olpav dereov.


npn.
D

'AvayKaiorarov.
2n. TAp' ovv rjSovrj ye elTrep yeveols eoriv, els
a XXrjv ttjv tov dyadov p.olpav avr,qv ridevres
rj

6p6d>s drjoop.ev;
npn. 'Opdorara p,ev ovv.
2n. OvKovv oTrep dpxop,evos elTrov tovtov tov
Xoyov, tco p.rjvvoavri rrjs rjSovrjs Trepi to yeveoiv p,ev,
ovolav Se p.rj8' rjvrivovv airrjs elvai, xa.piv exelv oel'
SrjXov yap cm. ovtos tcov cf>aoKovtcov rjSovqv dyadov
elvai KarayeXa.
npn. Hcf>68pa ye.
2n. Kai p.rjv ainos ovtos eKaorore Kal tcov
o1

ev rals yeveoeoiv dTroreXovp,evow KarayeXdoerai.


E

npn. lIai? Kal ttoIcov Xeyeis;


8rj

2n. Taiv oooi eicop.evoi Trelvqv Slifiav ti


fj

rj

r}

td>v toiovtasv ooa yeveois eidrai, xalpovoi Sid rrjv


,

add. Bekker.
1

354
PHILEBUS
pro. Certainly.
soc. I say that drugs and all sorts of instruments
and materials are always employed for the sake of
production or generation, but that every instance of
generation is for the sake of some being or other,
and generation in general is for the sake of being in
general.
pro. That is very clear.
soc. Then pleasure, if it is of generation,
a form
would be generated for the sake of some form of
being.
pro. Of course.
soc. Now surely that for the sake of which any
thing is generated is in the class of the good, and
that which is generated for the sake of something
else, my friend, must be placed in another class.
pro. Most undeniably.
soc. Then if pleasure is a form of generation, we
shall be right in placing it in a class other than that
of the good, shall we not ?
pro. Quite right.
soc. Then, as I said when we began to discuss
this point, we ought to be grateful to him who
pointed out that there is only a generation, but no
existence, of pleasure ; for he is clearly making a
laughing-stock of those who assert that pleasure is
a good.
pro. Yes, most emphatically.
soc. And he will also surely make a laughing
stock of all those who find their highest end in forms
of generation.
pro. How is that, and to whom do you refer ?
soc. To those who, when cured of hunger or thirst
or any of the troubles which are cured by generation,
355
PLATO

yeveoiv are rjSovrjs ovorjs avrrjs, Kal ovK cf>aoi ^rjv


av 8eaodai p.rj 0lAflowres re /cai Treivcovres /cai rdAAa
a tis av elTroi Travra to. iTrop.eva rols toiovtols
Tra.9VljlcXcTl jfrj TrCLCr^OvTS.
55 npn. 'E01/coax yovv.
2n. OvKovv rO> yiyveodal ye tovvclvtlov dTravres
to cf>delpeodai cf>alp,ev av;
npn. 'AvayKalov.
cf>dopav /cai yeveoiv aipolx' av ti?
Srj

sn. Trjv
tovd' alpovp.evos dXX' ov tov rplrov eKelvov filov,
,

tov ev co p.rjre ^ai'peiv p.rjre XvTrelodai, cf>povelv

rjv
S'
8vvarov cos olov re Kadapcorara.
npn. Il0AArj ti?, cos eoi/cev, cb Sco/cpare?, dXoyla
ovpifialvei yiyveouai, edv tis ttjv rjSovqv cos dyadov
rjpuv ridrjrai.
sn. HoXXrj, eVei /cai rfjSe eri Xeycop.ev.
npn. Ylfj;
2n. Ilco? ovK aXoyov ecm dyadov elvai
B

p.rjSev
p.rj8e KaX6v p.rjre ev od>p.aoi urjr' ev ttoXXois aAAoi?
TrXrjv ev ifivxfj, /cai ivravda rjSovrjv p.6vov, dv8pelav
8e ouxf>poovvrjv vovv ti tcov dXXcov ooa dyada
rj
rj

rj

elXrjxe ^xh' i^fiev tolovtov elvai; Trpos tovtols Se


eri tov xaipovra, dXyovvra Se, dvayKa^eodai
p.rj
cf>dvai KaKov elvai rore orav dXyfj, /caV dpioros
Trdvrow, /cai tov xalpovra av, oocp p.aXXov ^ai'pei,
rore orav xalprj, tooovtco Sia^e'peiv Trpos dperfjv
C

npn. ndVr' ean raCra, co UcoKpares, cos 8vva-


tov dXoycorara.
34. 2n. M17 tolvvv rjSovrjs p.ev Trdvrcos eeraoiv
Traoav eTrixeipcop.ev Troirjoaodai, vov Se /cai im-
orrjp.rj9 olov cf>eiS6p,evoi ocf>68pa cf>avcop.ev yevvalcos
Se', ei rr1j n oadpov e'^ei, Trav TrepiKpovcop.ev cos1 ori
,

356
PHILEBUS

are pleased because of the generation, as if it were


pleasure, and say that they would not wish to live
without thirst and hunger and the like, if they could
not experience the feelings which follow after them.
pro. That seems to be their view.
soc. We should all agree that the opposite of
generation is destruction, should we not ?
pro. Inevitably.
soc. And he who chooses as they do would be
choosing destruction and generation, not that third
life in which there was neither pleasure nor pain,
but only the purest possible thought.
pro. It is a great absurdity, as it appears, Socrates,
to tell us that pleasure is a good.
soc. Yes, a great absurdity, and let us go still
further.
pro. How ?
soc. Is it not absurd to say that there is nothing
good in the body or many other things, but only in
the soul, und that in the soul the only good is
pleasure, and that courage and self-restraint and
understanding and all the other good things of the
soul are nothing of the sort ; and beyond all this
to be obliged to say that he who is not feeling
pleasure, and is feeling pain, is bad when he feels
pain, though he be the best of men, and that he who
feels pleasure is, when he feels pleasure, the more
excellent in virtue the greater the pleasure he feels ?
pro. All that, Socrates, is the height of absurdity.
soc. Now let us not undertake to subject pleasure
to every possible test and then be found to give
mind and knowledge very gentle treatment. Let
us rather strike them boldly everywhere to see if
1
ws Apelt : i'ws BT.
357
PLATO

Kadapoyrarov eor' avrcov cf>voei, rovro Kari86vres


els rrjv Kploiv xpcop.eda rrjv Koivrjv tois re1 tovtcov
Kal rols rrjs rjSovrjs p.ipeoiv dXrjdeorarois.
npn. 'Opdcos.
D 2n. OVKovv rjplv ro p.ev, ol/xai, Srjp.lovpyiKov
eori rrjs Trepl rd p.adrjp.ara emorrjp.rjs , to 8e Trepl
TraiSelav Kal rpocf>rjv. r) ttcos;
npn. Our co ?.
8rj

sn. 'Ev rals xeip0rexviKais Sua>otficouev


to p.ev emorrjp.rjs avrcov p.aXXov e'^diie-
el

Trpcora
vov, to 8e t)ttov evi, Kal Sei rd p.ev cos Kadapcorara
rd
S'

vop.i^eiv, aKadaprorepa.
cos
npn. Ou/cow xpq.
2n. Td? rolvvv rjyep.oviKa.s oiaXrjTrreov eKaorcov
avrcov ^copi?;
npn. Yloias Kal rral?;
2n. Olov Traocov ttov rexvcov av tls dpidp.rj-
E

riKrjv xcopl^rj Kal p.erprjriKr)v Kal orariKrjv, d>s trros


elTrelv, cf>avXov to KaraXenrop.evov eKaorrjs av
ylyvoiro.
npn. OaCAov p,ev Srj.
2n. To yovv p.erd ravr Xenroir av
elKd^eiv
Kal to\s alodrjoeis Karap,eXerav ep.Treiplq Kal tivl
rpififj, rals rrjs oroxaoriKrjs Trpooxpcop,evovs 8vvd-
56 p.eoiv as ttoXXoI rexvas eTrovop.d^ovoi, pieXerrj /cai
ttovco rrjv pcop.rjv dTreipyaop.evas
.

npn. 'AvayKaiorara Xeyeis.


sn. OvKovv peorrj p,ev ttov p.ovoiKrj Trpcorov, to
vp.cf>covov app.orrovoa ov p,erpco dXXd p.eXerrjs
oroxaop.c,>' Kal vp.Traoa avrrjs auArjri/Cij, to p.erpov
eKaorrjs \opSrjs rc? crroxd^eodai cf>epop.evrjs drj-
rois tc tj)s Te BT.
1

t
:

358
PHILEBUS
their metal rings unsound at any point ; so we shall
find out what is by nature purest in them, and then
we can make use of the truest elements of these and
of pleasure to form our judgement of both.
pro. Right.
soc. Well, then, one part of knowledge is pro
ductive, the other has to do with education and
support. Is that true ?
pro. It is.
soc. Let us first consider whether in the manual
arts one part is more allied to knowledge, and the
other less, and the one should be regarded as purest,
the other as less pure.
pro. Yes, we ought to consider that.
soc. And should the ruling elements of each of
them be separated and distinguished from the
rest ?
pro. What are they, and how can they be separ
ated ?
soc. For example, if
arithmetic and the sciences
of measurement and weighing were taken away
from all arts, what was left of any of them would
be, so to speak, pretty worthless.
pro. Yes, pretty worthless.
soc. All that would be left for us would be to
conjecture and to drill the perceptions by practice
and experience, with the additional use of the powers
of guessing, which are commonly called arts and
acquire their elficacy by practice and toil.
pro. That is undeniable.
soc. Take music first ; it is full of this ; it attains
harmony by guesswork based on practice, not by
measurement ; and flute music throughout tries to
find the pitch of each note as it is produced by guess,
359
PLATO

pevovoa, wore TtoXv p.ep.iyp,evov e^eiv r0 p.rj oa^es,


op.iKpov Se to fiefiaiov.
npn. 'AXrjdeorara.
B Jn. Kai larpiKrjv re Kal yeo>pylav Kal
KvfiepvqriKrjv Kal orparrjyiKrjv dxjavrcos evprjoop.ev
e^ouoa?.
npn. Kai TrdVu ye.
2n. TeKroviK,qv 8e ye, oip.ai, TrXelorois p.erpois
re Kal opydvois xpcojxevrjv ta ttoXXtjv aKpifieiav avrfj
TropiCftvra rexviKcorepav rcov TroXXcov emcrrrjp.cov
Trapexerai.
npn. Ilrj;
2n. Kara re vavnrjylav Kal /car' oiKoSop.iav Kal
ev ttoXXois aAAoi? rrjs vXovpy iKr)s. Kovovi yap,
oip.ai, Kal ropvco xprjrai Kal Siafiijrrj Kal oradp,rj
C /ccu tivi Trpooaycoyicp1 KeKop.ifievp,evcp.
npn. Keu Trdvv ye, cb Ho>Kpares, opdcos Ae'yei?.
2n. rolvvv Sixfj ras Xeyop,evas rexvas,
Qcop,ev
ras p,ev p.ovoiKfj vveTrop,evas ev rols epyois
eXarrovos aKpifielas p.erioxovoas , ras Se reKroviKjj
TrXelovos.
npn. Keiodco.
2n. Tovtcov Se rauVa? aKpifieordras eivai rexvas,
8rj

a? vvv Trpcoras elTrop.ev.


npn. ApidpirjriKrjv Kal ooas
cf>alvei p.oi Xeyeiv
p,era ravrrjs rexvas ecf>deyco vvv Srj.
2n. Ilavu p,ev ovv.
D

dXX' Ylpcorapxe, dp'


c5
,

ov Sirra? av Kal ravras XeKreov; ttcx>s;


r)

npn. lIoia?
S1j

Ae'yei?;
2n. Apidp.rjriKrjv Trpcorov dp' ovK dXXrjv p.ev
riva rrjv rcov ttoXXcov cfiareov, dXXrjv av rrjv rdv
S'

cf>iXooocf>ovvrcov
;

860
PHILEBUS
so that the amount of uncertainty mixed up in it is
great, and the amount of certainty small.
pro. Very true.
soc. And we shall find that medicine and agri
culture and piloting and generalship are all in the
same case.
pro. Certainly.
soc. But the art of building, I believe, employs
the greatest number of measures and instruments
which give it great accuracy and make it more
scientific than most arts.
pro. In what way ?
soc. In shipbuilding and house-building, and
many other branches of wood-working. For the
artisan uses a rule, I imagine, a lathe, compasses,
a chalk-line, and an ingenious instrument called a
vice.
pro. Certainly, Socrates ; you are right.
soc. Let us, then, divide the arts, as they are
called, inlo two kinds, those which resemble music,
and have less accuracy in their works, and those
which, like building, are more exact.
pro. Agreed.
soc. And of these the most exact are the arts
which I just now mentioned first.
pro. I think you mean arithmetic and the other
arts you mentioned with it just now.
soc. Certainly. But, Protarchus, ought not these
to be divided into two kinds ? What do you say ?
pro. What kinds ?
soc. Are there not two kinds of arithmetic, that
of the people and that of philosophers ?
1
Trpoaayuyiil! roc. t Hesychius Suidas : Trpoaaywydif B :

trpoaywyiip T.
361
PLATO
npn. Il rj
Trork Siopiodpievos ovv dXXrjv, ttjv 8e
dXXrjv delrj ti? av dpidp.TjriKrjv ;
2n. Ou oiiiKpo? opos, co Ylpcorapxe. ol p.ev
yap ttov p.ovd8as dvloovs Karapidp.ovvrai tcov Trepl
E apidp.6v, olov orparorre8a Svo Kal /Jou? Svo /cai Svo
rd op.iKporara r) /cai rd Trdvrcov p.eyiora' oi S' ovK
dv ttots avrols ovvaKoXovdrjoeiav, el p.rj p.ovd8a
p,ovdSos eKdorrjs tcov p.vplcov p,rjSep.lav dXXrjv dXXrjs
Siacf>epovodv tis drjoei.
npn. Kai
p.dXa eS Xeyeis ov opuKpav Sia-
cf>opdv tcov Trepl dpidp.ov revratJwrcov , coore Xoyov

exeiv Svo avrds elvai.


2n. Ti Se; XoyioriKrj Kal p.erprjriKrj Kara

rj1
reKroviKrjv Kal /car' ip.TropiKrjv rrjs Kara cfciXo-
57 oocf>lav yecop.erplas re Kal Xoyiop.cov Karap.eXerco-
p,evcov
Trorepov cos p.ia eKarepa XeKreov Svo

rj
ridcop,ev;
npn. Trj Trpoodev eTrop.evos eycoy dv Svo Kara
ttjv ep.rjv ifirjcf>ov ridelrjv eKarepav tovtcov.
eveKa ravra TrporjveyKdp.eda
8'

2n.'Opdcos. ov
els to p,eoov, apa evvoels;
npn. "loco?, dXXd oe fiovXolp.rjv dv dTrocf>fjvaodai
to vvv epcorcop.evov .

2n.Ao/cei tolvvv ep.oiye ovtos Xoyos, ovx


d

rjrrov ore Xeyeiv avrov rjpxop.eda, rals rjSovals


rj

^rjrcbv dvricrrpocf>ov evravda TrpofiefiXrjKevai, oKo-


B

Trcov dpd eori tls erepas dXXrj Kadapcorepa emo~rrj-

p.rjs eTriorrjp.rj, KaddTrep rjSovrjs r)Sovq.


npn. Kai p.dXa oacpes tovto ye, otl ravd'
eveKa tovtcov emKexelprjKev.
35. 2n. Ti ovv; dp' ovK ev p.ev tols ep.Trpo-
add. corr. Ven. 189 om. BT.
1

36i>
PHILEBUS
pro. How can one kind of arithmetic be distin
guished from the other ?
soc. The distinction is no small one, Protarchus.
For some arithmeticians reckon unequal units, for
instance, two armies and two oxen and two very
small or incomparably large units ; whereas others
refuse to agree with them unless each of countless
units is declared to dilfer not at all from each and
every other unit.
pro. You are certainly quite right in saying that
there is a great dilference between the devotees of
arithmetic, so it is reasonable to assume that it is
of two kinds.
soc. And how about the arts of reckoning and
measuring as they are used in building and in trade
when compared with philosophical geometry and
elaborate computations shall we speak of each of
these as one or as two ?
pro. On the analogy of the previous example, I
should say ihat cuch of tlicm was two.
soc. Right. But do you understand why I intro
duced this subject ?
pro. Perhaps ; but I wish you would give the
answer to your question.
soc. This discussion of ours is now, I think, no
less than when we began it, seeking a counterpart
of pleasure, and therefore it has introduced the
present subject and is considering whether there is
one kind of knowledge purer than another, as one
pleasure is purer than another.
pro. That is very clear ; it was evidently intro
duced with that object.
soc. Well, had not the discussion already found

363
PLATO

odev dXXois dXXrjv rexvtjv ovoav dvrjvprjKeiv1


eTr

oacf>eore'pav Kal aoa^eorepav dXXrjv dXXrjs;


npn. IldVu piev ovv.
3n. 'Ev tovtols Se dp' ov riva rexvrjv cos op.co-
vvp.ov ct>deydp.evos, els S6av Karaorrjoas cos p.ias,
C TrdXiv d>s 8voiv enavepcora tovtolv aiirolv to oathes
Kal to Kadapov Trepl raCra Trorepov rj tcov cf>iXo-
oocf>ovvrcov r) p.rj cf>iXooocf>ovvrcov aKpifieorepov e^ei;
npn. Kai p.dXa SoKel p.oi tovto Siepcor&v.
2n. Tlv' ovv, co Ylpcorapxe, avrcp SlSop.ev lxtto-
Kpioiv;
npn. T0 HcoKpares, els davp.aorov Siacbopas
p.eyedos els oachTfveiav TrpoeXrjXvdapev emorrjjldiv.
2n. OvKovv clTroKpivovp.eda paov ;
npn. Ti p.rjv ; Kal elpnqodco ye ori ttoXv piev
avrcu tcov dXXcov rexvcov oiacf>epovoi, tovtcov S
D avrcov al Trepl rTpi tcov ovto>s cf>iXooocf>ovvrcov
opp.rjv dp.'fjxavov aKpifiela re Kal dXrjdeia Trepi p.erpa
re Kal dpidp.ovs 8iacf>epovoiv.
sn. "Eoroi raura /card cre, Kal ool morevovres
St)

dappovvres aTroKpiv6p.eda tols Seivols Trepl Xoycov


6XKtjv
npn. To Tr0iov
;

sn. 'Qs elol Svo dpidp.rjriKal Kal Svo p.erprjriKal


Kal raUrai?2 dXXai roiaurai ovveTrouevai ovxval, ttjv
Si8vp.orrjra exovoai ravrrjv, 6v6p.aros 8e evos KeKoi-
vcop.evai.
npn. AiScop.ev
tv"xTI ayadfj tovtois ovs cf>fjs Sei-
E

vovs elvai ravrtjv ttjv aTroKpioiv cb Sco/cpare?.


,

Burnet corr. Veil. 189) avcvplaKuv


1

dvrfvp^Kav (dvrjv\yfiKei
:

BT.
ravrais Kai rairrcus T.
B

/cai
2

dOo iXerprjriKaX
:

364
PHILEBUS
in what preceded that the various arts had various
purposes and various degrees of exactness ?
pro. Certainly.
soc. And after having given an art a single name
in what has preceded, thereby making us think that
it was a single art, does not the discussion now assume
that the same art is two and ask whether the art of
the philosophers or that of the non-philosophers
possesses the higher degree of clearness and purity ?
pro. Yes, I think that is just the question it asks.
soc. Then what reply shall we make, Protarchus ?
pro. Socrates, we have found a marvellously great
dilference in the clearness of dilferent kinds of
knowledge.
soc. That will make the reply easier, will it not ?
pro. Yes, to be sure ; and let our reply be this,
that the arithmetical and metrical arts far surpass the
others and that of these the arts which are stirred by
the impulse of the true philosophers are immeasurably
superior in accuracy and truth about measures and
numbers.
soc. We accept that as our judgement, and relying
upon you we make this confident reply to those who
are clever in straining arguments
pro. What reply ?
soc. That there are two arts of arithmetic and two
of measuring, and many other arts which, like these,
are twofold in this way, but possess a single name
in common.
pro. Let us give this answer, Socrates, to those
who you say are clever ; I hope we shall have luck
with it.
365
PLATO

sn. Tavras ovv Xeyop,ev emorrjp.as aKpifiels p.d-


Xiora elvou;
npn. IldVu p.ev oSv.
2n. 'AAA' r)p.as, co Ylpcorapxe, dvalvocr' av ij
tov SiaXeyeodai Svvap.is, el riva Trpo avrrjs dXXrjv
Kplvaip.ev.
58 npn. TiVa Se ravrqv aS Sei Xeyeiv;
2n.ArjXov orirj1 Tra? dv2 rrjv ye vvv Xeyop,evrjv
yvolrj.rrjv yap Trepl to ov /cai to ovtcos Koli to
Kara ravrov del Trecf>vKos Trdvrcos eycoye oi/iai
rjyelodai vp.Travras ooois vov Kal opaKpov Trpoo-
rjprrjrai p.aKpco dXrjdeorarrjv elvai yvcoow ov Se
ri; Trcos tovto, co Upcorapxe, ouu<pivois dv;
npn. "HKovov p,ev eycoye, co YicoKpares, e'/ca-
ctrore ropyiou TroXXaKis cos rj tov Treldeiv ttoXv
Sia^epoi Traocov rexvcov ,ndvra yap vcj>' avrfj
B SoCAa Si' IKovtcov aAA' ov Sia. /Ji'a? Troioiro, /cai
/ia/cpoi dplorrj Traocov elrj tcov rexvcov vvv S'
8rj

ovre ool ovre e/ceiVcO fiovXolp.rjv dv evavrla


rldeodai.