ESTHER PEREL

The secret to desire in a long-term

relationship

00:13
So, why does good sex so often fade, even for couples who continue to love
each other as much as ever? And why does good intimacy not guarantee
good sex, contrary to popular belief? Or, the next question would be, can
we want what we already have? That's the million-dollar question,
right? And why is the forbidden so erotic? What is it about transgression
that makes desire so potent? And why does sex make babies, and babies
spell erotic disaster in couples?
00:44
(Laughter)
00:46
It's kind of the fatal erotic blow, isn't it? And when you love, how does it
feel? And when you desire, how is it different?
00:54
These are some of the questions that are at the center of my exploration
on the nature of erotic desire and its concomitant dilemmas in modern
love. So I travel the globe, and what I'm noticing is that everywhere where
romanticism has entered, there seems to be a crisis of desire. A crisis of
desire, as in owning the wanting -- desire as an expression of our
individuality, of our free choice, of our preferences, of our identity -- desire
that has become a central concept as part of modern love and individualistic
societies.
01:33
You know, this is the first time in the history of humankind where we are
trying to experience sexuality in the long term not because we want 14
children, for which we need to have even more because many of them
won't make it, and not because it is exclusively a woman's marital
duty. This is the first time that we want sex over time about pleasure and
connection that is rooted in desire.
02:04
So what sustains desire, and why is it so difficult? And at the heart of
sustaining desire in a committed relationship, I think, is the reconciliation
of two fundamental human needs. On the one hand, our need for security,

1
for predictability, for safety, for dependability, for reliability, for
permanence. All these anchoring, grounding experiences of our lives that
we call home. But we also have an equally strong need -- men and women
-- for adventure, for novelty, for mystery, for risk, for danger, for the
unknown, for the unexpected, surprise -- you get the gist. For journey, for
travel.
02:53
So reconciling our need for security and our need for adventure into one
relationship, or what we today like to call a passionate marriage, used to
be a contradiction in terms. Marriage was an economic institution in which
you were given a partnership for life in terms of children and social
status and succession and companionship. But now we want our partner to
still give us all these things, but in addition I want you to be my best
friend and my trusted confidant and my passionate lover to boot, and we
live twice as long.
03:26
(Laughter)
03:29
So we come to one person, and we basically are asking them to give us
what once an entire village used to provide. Give me belonging, give me
identity, give me continuity, but give me transcendence and mystery and
awe all in one. Give me comfort, give me edge. Give me novelty, give me
familiarity. Give me predictability, give me surprise. And we think it's a
given, and toys and lingerie are going to save us with that.
03:55
(Laughter)
03:57
(Applause)
04:01
So now we get to the existential reality of the story, right? Because I think,
in some way -- and I'll come back to that -- but the crisis of desire is often
a crisis of the imagination.
04:14
So why does good sex so often fade? What is the relationship between love
and desire? How do they relate, and how do they conflict? Because therein
lies the mystery of eroticism.
04:26
So if there is a verb, for me, that comes with love, it's "to have." And if
there is a verb that comes with desire, it is "to want." In love, we want to

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have, we want to know the beloved. We want to minimize the distance. We
want to contract that gap. We want to neutralize the tensions. We want
closeness. But in desire, we tend to not really want to go back to the places
we've already gone. Forgone conclusion does not keep our interest. In
desire, we want an Other, somebody on the other side that we can go
visit, that we can go spend some time with, that we can go see what goes
on in their red-light district. You know? In desire, we want a bridge to
cross. Or in other words, I sometimes say, fire needs air. Desire needs
space. And when it's said like that, it's often quite abstract.
05:20
But then I took a question with me. And I've gone to more than 20 countries
in the last few years with "Mating in Captivity," and I asked people, when
do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Not attracted sexually,
per Se, but most drawn. And across culture, across religion, and across
gender -- except for one -- there are a few answers that just keep coming
back.
05:42
So the first group is: I am most drawn to my partner when she is
away, when we are apart, when we reunite. Basically, when I get back in
touch with my ability to imagine myself with my partner, when my
imagination comes back in the picture, and when I can root it in absence
and in longing, which is a major component of desire.
06:11
But then the second group is even more interesting. I am most drawn to
my partner when I see him in the studio, when she is onstage, when he is
in his element, when she's doing something she's passionate about, when
I see him at a party and other people are really drawn to him, when I see
her hold court. Basically, when I look at my partner radiant and
confident. Probably the biggest turn-on across the board. Radiant, as in
self-sustaining. I look at this person -- by the way, in desire people rarely
talk about it, when we are blended into one, five centimeters from each
other. I don't know in inches how much that is.
06:50
But it's also not when the other person is that far apart that you no longer
see them. It's when I'm looking at my partner from a comfortable
distance, where this person that is already so familiar, so known, is
momentarily once again somewhat mysterious, somewhat elusive. And in
this space between me and the other lies the erotic lan, lies that
movement toward the other.Because sometimes, as Proust says, mystery
is not about traveling to new places, but it's about looking with new
eyes. And so, when I see my partner on his own or her own, doing
something in which they are enveloped, I look at this person and I

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momentarily get a shift in perception, and I stay open to the mysteries that
are living right next to me.
07:39
And then, more importantly, in this description about the other or myself -
- it's the same -- what is most interesting is that there is no neediness in
desire. Nobody needs anybody. There is no caretaking in
desire. Caretaking is mightily loving. It's a powerful anti-aphrodisiac.
07:58
(Laughter)
07:59
I have yet to see somebody who is so turned on by somebody who needs
them. Wanting them is one thing. Needing them is a shot down and women
have known that forever, because anything that will bring up
parenthood will usually decrease the erotic charge.
08:13
(Laughter)
08:15
For good reasons, right?
08:16
And then the third group of answers usually would be: when I'm surprised,
when we laugh together, as somebody said to me in the office today, when
he's in his tux, so I said, you know, it's either the tux or the cowboy
boots. But basically it's when there is novelty. But novelty isn't about new
positions. It isn't a repertoire of techniques. Novelty is, what parts of you
do you bring out? What parts of you are just being seen?
08:46
Because in some way one could say sex isn't something you do, eh? Sex is
a place you go. It's a space you enter inside yourself and with another, or
others. So where do you go in sex? What parts of you do you connect
to? What do you seek to express there? Is it a place for transcendence and
spiritual union? Is it a place for naughtiness and is it a place to be safely
aggressive? Is it a place where you can finally surrender and not have to
take responsibility for everything? Is it a place where you can express your
infantile wishes? What comes out there? It's a language. It isn't just a
behavior. And it's the poetic of that language that I'm interested in, which
is why I began to explore this concept of erotic intelligence.
09:31
You know, animals have sex. It's the pivot, it's biology, it's the natural
instinct. We are the only ones who have an erotic life,which means that it's

4
sexuality transformed by the human imagination. We are the only ones who
can make love for hours,have a blissful time, multiple orgasms, and touch
nobody, just because we can imagine it. We can hint at it. We don't even
have to do it. We can experience that powerful thing called
anticipation, which is a mortar to desire. The ability to imagine it, as if it's
happening, to experience it as if it's happening, while nothing is
happening and everything is happening, at the same time.
10:15
So when I began to think about eroticism, I began to think about the
poetics of sex. And if I look at it as an intelligence, then it's something that
you cultivate. What are the ingredients? Imagination, playfulness, novelty,
curiosity, mystery. But the central agent is really that piece called the
imagination.
10:38
But more importantly, for me to begin to understand who are the couples
who have an erotic spark, what sustains desire, I had to go back to the
original definition of eroticism, the mystical definition, and I went through
it through a bifurcation by looking, actually, at trauma, which is the other
side. And I looked at it, looking at the community that I had grown up
in, which was a community in Belgium, all Holocaust survivors, and in my
community, there were two groups: those who didn't die, and those who
came back to life. And those who didn't die lived often very tethered to the
ground, could not experience pleasure, could not trust, because when
you're vigilant, worried, anxious, and insecure, you can't lift your head to
go and take off in space and be playful and safe and imaginative. Those
who came back to life were those who understood the erotic as an antidote
to death. They knew how to keep themselves alive. And when I began to
listen to the sexlessness of the couples that I work with, I sometimes would
hear people say, "I want more sex," but generally, people want better
sex, and better is to reconnect with that quality of aliveness, of vibrancy,
of renewal, of vitality, of Eros, of energy that sex used to afford them, or
that they've hoped it would afford them.
11:59
And so I began to ask a different question. "I shut myself off when ..."
began to be the question. "I turn off my desires when ..."Which is not the
same question as, "What turns me off is ..." and "You turn me off when
..." And people began to say, "I turn myself off when I feel dead inside,
when I don't like my body, when I feel old, when I haven't had time for
myself, when I haven't had a chance to even check in with you, when I
don't perform well at work, when I feel low self esteem, when I don't have
a sense of self-worth, when I don't feel like I have a right to want, to
take, to receive pleasure."
12:37

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And then I began to ask the reverse question. "I turn myself on when
..." Because most of the time, people like to ask the question, "You turn
me on, what turns me on," and I'm out of the question, you know? Now, if
you are dead inside, the other person can do a lot of things for
Valentine's. It won't make a dent. There is nobody at the reception desk.
12:55
(Laughter)
12:57
So I turn myself on when, I turn on my desires, I wake up when ...
13:03
Now, in this paradox between love and desire, what seems to be so
puzzling is that the very ingredients that nurture love --mutuality,
reciprocity, protection, worry, responsibility for the other -- are sometimes
the very ingredients that stifle desire.Because desire comes with a host of
feelings that are not always such favorites of love: jealousy,
possessiveness, aggression, power, dominance, naughtiness,
mischief. Basically most of us will get turned on at night by the very same
things that we will demonstrate against during the day. You know, the
erotic mind is not very politically correct. If everybody was fantasizing on
a bed of roses, we wouldn't be having such interesting talks about this.
13:54
(Laughter)
13:55
But no, in our mind up there are a host of things going on that we don't
always know how to bring to the person that we love,because we think love
comes with selflessness and in fact desire comes with a certain amount of
selfishness in the best sense of the word: the ability to stay connected to
one's self in the presence of another.
14:17
So I want to draw that little image for you, because this need to reconcile
these two sets of needs, we are born with that. Our need for connection,
our need for separateness, or our need for security and adventure, or our
need for togetherness and for autonomy, and if you think about the little
kid who sits on your lap and who is cozily nested here and very secure and
comfortable, and at some point all of us need to go out into the world to
discover and to explore. That's the beginning of desire, that exploratory
need, curiosity, discovery. And then at some point they turn around and
they look at you. And if you tell them, "Hey kiddo, the world's a great
place. Go for it. There's so much fun out there," then they can turn away
and they can experience connection and separateness at the same
time. They can go off in their imagination, off in their body, off in their

6
playfulness, all the while knowing that there's somebody when they come
back.
15:16
But if on this side there is somebody who says, "I'm worried. I'm anxious.
I'm depressed. My partner hasn't taken care of me in so long. What's so
good out there? Don't we have everything you need together, you and
I?" then there are a few little reactionsthat all of us can pretty much
recognize. Some of us will come back, came back a long time ago, and that
little child who comes back is the child who will forgo a part of himself in
order not to lose the other. I will lose my freedom in order not to lose
connection. And I will learn to love in a certain way that will become
burdened with extra worry and extra responsibility and extra
protection, and I won't know how to leave you in order to go play, in order
to go experience pleasure, in order to discover, to enter inside myself.
16:10
Translate this into adult language. It starts very young. It continues into
our sex lives up to the end. Child number two comes back but looks like
that over their shoulder all the time. "Are you going to be there? Are you
going to curse me, scold me? Are you going to be angry with me?" And
they may be gone, but they're never really away. And those are often the
people that will tell you, "In the beginning, it was super hot." Because in
the beginning, the growing intimacy wasn't yet so strong that it actually led
to the decrease of desire. The more connected I became, the more
responsible I felt, the less I was able to let go in your presence. The third
child doesn't really come back.
16:56
So what happens, if you want to sustain desire, it's that real dialectic
piece. On the one hand you want the security in order to be able to go. On
the other hand if you can't go, you can't have pleasure, you can't culminate,
you don't have an orgasm, you don't get excited because you spend your
time in the body and the head of the other and not in your own.
17:18
So in this dilemma about reconciling these two sets of fundamental
needs, there are a few things that I've come to understand erotic couples
do. One, they have a lot of sexual privacy. They understand that there is
an erotic space that belongs to each of them. They also understand that
foreplay is not something you do five minutes before the real
thing. Foreplay pretty much starts at the end of the previous orgasm. They
also understand that an erotic space isn't about, you begin to stroke the
other.It's about you create a space where you leave Management
Inc., maybe where you leave the Agile program --
17:56

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(Laughter)
17:58
And you actually just enter that place where you stop being the good
citizen who is taking care of things and being responsible.
18:05
Responsibility and desire just butt heads. They don't really do well
together. Erotic couples also understand that passion waxes and
wanes. It's pretty much like the moon. It has intermittent eclipses. But
what they know is they know how to resurrect it.They know how to bring it
back. And they know how to bring it back because they have demystified
one big myth, which is the myth of spontaneity, which is that it's just going
to fall from heaven while you're folding the laundry like a deus ex
machina, and in fact they understood that whatever is going to just happen
in a long-term relationship, already has.
18:43
Committed sex is premeditated sex. It's willful. It's intentional. It's focus
and presence.
18:52
Merry Valentine's.
18:53
(Applause)

00:13
Por qu el buen sexo se desvanece tan frecuentemente aun en parejas
que continan amndose uno al otro tanto como siempre? Y por qu una
buena intimidad no garantiza buen sexo, contrario a la creencia popular? O,
la siguiente pregunta pudiera ser, podemos desear lo que ya tenemos? Es
la pregunta del milln, verdad? Y por qu lo prohibido es tan
ertico?Qu hace la transgresin que hace al deseo tan potente? Y por
qu el sexo hace bebs, y los bebs significan desastre ertico en las
parejas? Es una especie de golpe mortal al erotismo, no es as? Y cuando
amas, cmo se siente? Y cuando deseas, en qu es diferente?
00:54
Estas son algunas de la preguntas que estn en el centro de mi
exploracin de la naturaleza del deseo ertico y los dilemas concomitantes
en el amor moderno. As que he viajado por el mundo y lo que he notado

8
es que en todas partes donde el romanticismo ha entrado parece haber una
crisis del deseo. Una crisis del deseo, como en poseer lo querido. El deseo
como una expresin de nuestra individualidad, de nuestra libre eleccin, de
nuestras preferencias, de nuestra identidad; deseo que se ha convertido en
el concepto central como parte del amor moderno y las sociedades
individualistas.
01:33
Saben, es la primera vez en la historia de la humanidad en que tratamos
de experimentar la sexualidad en el largo plazo, no porque queramos 14
nios, para lo que necesitamos tener an ms porque muchos de ellos no
sobreviven, y no porque sea un deber marital exclusivo de las
mujeres. Esta es la primera vez que queremos sexo por largo tiempo por
el placer y la conexin que tiene sus races en el deseo.
02:04
Qu sostiene el deseo y por qu es tan difcil? Y en el corazn del deseo
sostenido en una relacin comprometida, creo que est la reconciliacin de
dos necesidades humanas fundamentales. Por una parte, nuestro deseo de
seguridad, predictibilidad,seguridad, dependencia, confidencialidad,
permanencia, todas anclas, polos a tierra de nuestras vidas, que llamamos
hogar.Pero tambin tenemos una necesidad igualmente fuerte hombres
y mujeres de aventura, novedad, misterio, riesgo, peligro, de lo
desconocido, lo inesperado, de sorpresa captan la idea de camino, de
viaje. As que reconciliar nuestra necesidad de seguridad y nuestra
necesidad de aventura en una relacin, o lo que hoy nos gusta llamar un
matrimonio apasionado, suele ser una contradiccin de trminos. El
matrimonio era una institucin econmica en la que te dieron un
compaero para toda la vida en trminos de nios y estatus social y
sucesin y compaerismo Pero ahora queremos que nuestro compaero
an nos d esas cosas, y adems queremos que sea nuestro mejor
amigo, sincero confidente y apasionado amante, y vivimos el
doble. (Risas) As que escojemos a una persona y bsicamente le
pedimos que nos d lo que antes toda la aldea sola dar: Dame pertenencia,
identidad, continuidad, pero dame trascendencia y misterio y asombro,
todo en uno. Dame confort, dame lmite. Dame novedad, dame
familiaridad. Dame predictibilidad, dame sorpresa. Y pensamos que est
dado, y que los juguetes y la lencera nos salvarn. (Aplausos)
04:00
As que ahora llegamos a la realidad existencial de la historia,
verdad? Porque creo, de una forma y volver sobre estoque la crisis
del deseo es frecuentemente una crisis de la imaginacin.
04:14

9
As que, por qu el buen sexo a menudo se desvanece? Cul es la relacin
entre amor y deseo? Cmo se relacionan y cmo entran en
conflicto? Porque ah radica el misterio del erotismo.
04:26
Si hay un verbo, para m, que acompae a amor es "tener". Y si hay un
verbo que acompae a deseo, es "querer". En el amor, queremos tener,
queremos conocer lo amado. Queremos minimizar la distancia. Queremos
reducir la brecha. Queremos neutralizar las tensiones. Queremos
cercana. Pero al desear, tendemos a no regresar a los lugares en los que
ya hemos estado. Los resultados previsibles no mantienen nuestro
inters. Al desear, queremos un Otro, alguien del otro lado que podamos ir
a visitar, con quien podamos pasar algn tiempo, que podamos ir a ver qu
pasa en la zona roja. Al desear, queremos un puente para cruzar. En otras
palabras, a veces digo, el fuego necesita aire. El deseo necesita espacio. Y
cuando se dice as es bastante abstracto.
05:20
Pero luego tom una pregunta conmigo. Y he ido a ms de 20 pases en los
ltimos aos con "Inteligencia Ertica" y le pregunt a la gente, cundo
encuentra ms atractiva a su pareja? No atractiva sexualmente, per se,
sino ms deseable. Y a lo largo de las culturas, las religiones, el gnero
excepto por uno hubo pocas respuestas diferentes.
05:42
El primer grupo es: Es ms deseable para m cuando se va, cuando est
lejos, cuando nos reunimos. Bsicamente, cuando entro en contacto con
mi habilidad de imaginarme con mi pareja, cuando mi imaginacin regresa
al cuadro, y cuando puedo socavar en la ausencia y el anhelo, que es el
mayor componente del deseo. Pero un segundo grupo es an ms
interesante:Me es ms deseable cuando la veo en el estudio, cuando est
en escena, cuando est en su elemento, haciendo algo que le
apasiona, cuando la veo en una fiesta y con otras personas, cuando la veo
dirigiendo. Bsicamente, cuando veo a mi pareja radiante y
segura, probablemente el mayor excitante de todos. Radiante, como
autosuficiente. Veo a esa persona, por cierto, en el deseo las personas
raramente hablan de ello, cuando estamos mezclados en uno, a 5
centmetros uno de otro. No s en pulgadas cunto es. Pero tampoco es
cuando la otra persona est tan lejos que ya no puedes verla. Es cuando
veo a mi pareja a una distancia confortable, cuando esa persona que es ya
tan familiar, saben, es por momentos, misteriosa otra vez, algo elusiva. Y
en ese espacio entre yo y el otro reside el impulso ertico, reside el
movimiento hacia el otro. Porque a veces, como deca Proust, el misterio
no es viajar a nuevos lugares, sino verlos con nuevos ojos. Y as, cuando
veo mi pareja por su cuenta,haciendo algo en que est involucrada, veo a
esa persona y por momentos tengo un cambio de percepcin, y estoy
abierta a los misterios que viven justo a mi lado.

10
07:39
Y entonces, ms importante, en esta descripcin del otro o de m es lo
mismo, lo que es ms interesante es que no hay necesidad en el
deseo. Nadie necesita a nadie. No hay cuidado en el deseo. El cuidado es
muy amoroso. Es un potente antiafrodisiaco. Todava estoy por ver a
alguien que est excitado por alguien que lo necesita. Una cosa es
quererles. Necesitarlos es un freno, y las mujeres lo han sabido desde
siempre, porque cualquier cosa que lleve a la planificacingeneralmente
disminuir la carga ertica. Por buenas razones, correcto?
08:16
Y el tercer grupo de respuestas generalmente son: Cuando estoy
sorprendido, cuando remos juntos, como alguien me dijo en la oficina
hoy, cuando est de etiqueta, as que me dije, ya sabes, es o de etiqueta
o de botas de vaquero. Pero bsicamente es cuando hay novedad. Pero la
novedad no se trata de nuevas posiciones. No es un repertorio de
tcnicas. Novedad es, qu partes tuyas vas a mostrar? Qu partes de ti
casi se ven? Porque de alguna manera uno podra decir que el sexo no es
algo que uno hace, eh? El sexo es un lugar al que vas. Es un espacio al
que entras dentro de ti mismo y con otro, u otros. As que a dnde iras
en el sexo? Qu partes de ti conectas? Qu buscas expresar all? Es un
lugar para la trascendencia y unin espiritual? Es un lugar para la
travesura y es un lugar para ser agresivo con seguridad? Es un lugar
donde puedes rendirte y no tener que asumir la responsabilidad de
todo? Es un lugar donde puedes expresar tus deseos infantiles? Qu
viene por ah? Es un lenguaje. No es solo un comportamiento. Y es la
potica de ese idioma lo que me interesa, que es por lo que comenc a
explorar este concepto de inteligencia ertica.
09:31
Saben, los animales tienen sexo. Es el pivote, es biologa, es el instinto
natural. Somos los nicos que tienen una vida ertica,lo que significa que
es sexualmente transformada por la imaginacin humana. Somos los
nicos que pueden hacer el amor durante horas, pasar un rato feliz, tener
orgasmos mltiples, sin tocar a nadie, simplemente porque nos lo
imaginamos.Podemos esbozarlo. Ni siquiera tenemos que
hacerlo. Podemos experimentar esa cosa potente llamada anticipacin, que
es el mortero del deseo, la capacidad de imaginar, como si estuviera
sucediendo, para vivirlo como si estuviera sucediendo, mientras que nada
est sucediendo y todo est ocurriendo al mismo tiempo. As que cuando
empec a pensar sobre el erotismo, me puse a pensar en la potica del
sexo, y si lo veo como una inteligencia, entonces es algo que puedes
cultivar.Cules son los ingredientes? Imaginacin, alegra, novedad,
curiosidad, misterio. Pero el agente central es realmente esa pieza llamada
la imaginacin.
10:38

11
Pero lo ms importante, para yo comenzar a entender cules son las
parejas que tienen una chispa ertica, lo que mantiene el deseo, tuve que
volver a la definicin original de erotismo, la definicin mstica, y me fui a
travs de ella a travs de una bifurcacin mirando realmente al
trauma, que es la otra cara, y mirarla, mirando a la comunidad en que
haba crecido, que era una comunidad en Blgica, todos sobrevivientes del
Holocausto, y en mi comunidad haba dos grupos: los que no murieron y
los que volvieron a la vida. Y los que no murieron vivieron a menudo muy
atados a la tierra, no podra experimentar placer, no poda confiar, porque
cuando ests atento, preocupado, ansioso, e inseguro, no puedes levantar
la cabeza e ir y despegar al espacio y ser juguetn y seguro e
imaginativo. Los que regresaron a la vida fueron aquellos que entendieron
lo ertico como un antdoto a la muerte. Supieron cmo mantenerse
vivos. Y cuando comenc a escuchar de la asexualidad de las parejas con
las que trabajo, a veces les oigo decir, "Quiero ms sexo", pero por lo
general lo que la gente quiere es mejor sexo, y lo mejor es volver a
conectar con esa cualidad de estar vivo, de resonancia, de renovacin, de
vitalidad, de eros, de energa que el sexo sola darles o que haban
esperado les diera.
11:59
Y as empec a hacer una pregunta diferente. "Me apago cuando..." empez
a ser la pregunta. "Se me acaba el deseo cuando..." que no es la misma
pregunta, "Lo que me apaga es..." y "Me apagas el deseo cuando..." Y la
gente comenz a decir, "No tengo deseo cuando me siento muerto dentro,
cuando no me gusta mi cuerpo, cuando me siento viejo, cuando no he
tenido tiempo para m, cuando no he tenido oportunidad ni siquiera de
presentarme, cuando no lo hago bien en el trabajo,cuando siento baja
autoestima, cuando no tengo un sentido de ser valioso, cuando no me
siento como que tengo el derecho a querer, de recibir placer".
12:36
Y entonces empec a hacer la pregunta inversa. "Me excito cuando..."
Porque la mayora de las veces, a la gente le gusta hacer pregunta, "Me
excito, lo que me excita", y estoy fuera de la pregunta. Saben? Ahora, si
ests muerto dentro, la otra persona puede hacer muchas cosas por San
Valentn. No har mella. No hay nadie en la recepcin. (Risas) As que me
excito cuando, dirijo a mis deseos, me avivo cuando...
13:03
Ahora, en esta paradoja entre el amor y el deseo, lo que parece ser tan
desconcertante es que los propios ingredientes que nutren el amor
mutualismo, reciprocidad, proteccin, preocupacin, responsabilidad por el
otro son a veces los mismos ingredientes que sofocan el deseo. Porque
el deseo viene con una serie de sentimientos que no siempre favorecen el
amor:celos, posesividad, agresin, poder, dominacin, malicia,
travesuras. Bsicamente la mayora de nosotros no excitamos en la

12
noche por las mismas cosas contra la que protestamos durante el
da. Saben, la mente ertica no es muy polticamente correcta. Si todo el
mundo fantasea en un lecho de rosas, no tendramos esas conversaciones
interesantes sobre esto. Pero no, en nuestra mente hay una multitud de
cosas sucediendo que no siempre sabemos cmo llevar a la persona que
amamos,porque pensamos que el amor viene con abnegacin, y de hecho
el deseo viene con una cierta cantidad de egosmo en el mejor sentido de
la palabra: la capacidad de estar conectado al propio yo en presencia de
otro.
14:16
As que quiero traer esa pequea imagen hacia Uds., debido a esta
necesidad de conciliar estos dos grupos de necesidadescon las que
nacemos. Nuestra necesidad de conexin, nuestra necesidad de
separacin, o nuestra necesidad de seguridad y aventura, o nuestra
necesidad de estar juntos y de autonoma, y si piensan en el nio que est
sentado en su regazo y que es acunado all, muy seguro y cmodo, y en
algn momento todos debemos salir al mundo para descubrir y
explorar. Eso es el principio del deseo, necesidades exploratorias,
curiosidad, descubrimiento. En algn momento dan vuelta y miran y si les
dices: "Nio, el mundo es un gran lugar. Ve por l. Hay mucha diversin
all", entonces pueden dar vuelta y experimentarconexin y separacin al
mismo tiempo. Pueden ir en su imaginacin, en su cuerpo, disfrutando su
alegra, sabiendo todo el tiempo que habr alguien cuando regresen.
15:16
Pero si en este lado hay alguien que dice: "Me preocupa. Estoy ansioso.
Estoy deprimido. Mi pareja no ha cuidado de m en tanto tiempo. Qu hay
tan bueno all afuera? No tenemos todo lo que necesitamos juntos, t y
yo?", entonces hay algunas pocas reacciones que todos nosotros podemos
reconocer bien. Algunos de nosotros volveremos, regresar a hace mucho
tiempo y a ese nio que regresa es el nio que va renunciar a una parte de
s mismo para no perder el otro. Perder mi libertad para no perder la
conexin. Y aprender a amar de una cierta manera que vendr cargada
de preocupacin extra,responsabilidad y proteccin adicionales, y no s
cmo dejarte para jugar, para experimentar placer, con el fin de descubrir,
de entrar dentro de m. Traduzcan esto al lenguaje adulto. Empieza muy
joven. Contina en nuestra vida sexual hasta el final. El nio nmero dos
regresa pero pareciera que sobre sus hombros todo el tiempo. "Vas a
estar all? Vas a maldecirme? Vas a regaarme? Vas a estar enojada
conmigo?" Y se ha ido, pero nunca estn muy lejos, y son a menudo las
personas que les dirn, al principio era supercaliente. Porque en un
principio, la intimidad creciente no era an tan fuerte que realmente llevara
a la disminucin del deseo. Cuanto ms conectado estoy, ms responsable
me siento, menos soy capaz de irme de tu presencia. El tercer nio
realmente no regresa.
16:56

13
Entonces pasa que, si quieres sostener el deseo, es este pedazo de real
dialctica. Por un lado deseas la seguridad para poder ir. Por otra si no
puedes irte, no tienes placer, no puedes culminar, no tienes un
orgasmo, que no te excitas porque gastas tu tiempo en el cuerpo y la
cabeza del otro y no en el tuyo propio.
17:18
En este dilema sobre reconciliacin de estos dos grupos de necesidades
fundamentales, hay algunas pocas cosas que me han llevado a comprender
lo que hacen esas parejas erticas. Uno, tienen mucha intimidad
sexual. Entienden que hay un espacio ertico que pertenece a cada uno de
ellos. Tambin entienden que la estimulacin ertica no es algo que
haces cinco minutos antes de la cosa real. El juego ertico inicia al final del
anterior orgasmo. Tambin entienden que un espacio ertico no es sobre
comenzar a tocar al otro. Es sobre crear un espacio donde dejas el Directivo
S.A. tal vez donde dejas el programa 'Agile',(Risas) y realmente solo debes
entrar a ese lugar donde dejas de ser el buen ciudadano que cuida de las
cosas y es responsable. Responsabilidad y deseo solo pelean. Realmente
no lo hacen bien juntos. Las parejas erticas tambin entiendan que la
pasin aumenta y disminuye. Es bastante parecida a la Luna. Tiene eclipses
intermitentes. Pero lo que saben es que saben cmo resucitarla. Saben
cmo hacerla regresar, y saben cmo hacerla regresar porque han
desmitificado un gran mito,que es el mito de la espontaneidad, que es que
vas a caer del cielo mientras t ests doblando la ropa como un deus ex
machina, y de hecho entendieron que todo lo que va a pasar, solo pasa en
una relacin de largo plazo que ya se tiene.
18:43
Sexo comprometido es sexo premeditado. Es con voluntad. Es
intencional. Es foco y presencia.
18:51
Feliz San Valentn.
18:53
(Aplausos)

14
Mark MatousekEthical Wisdom

Unlocking Erotic Intelligence: Advice

from Esther Perel
How can couples keep the home fires burning?
Posted Mar 29, 2013

Esther Perel is a triple threat. Visionary, beautiful, and ferociously

intelligent, the Belgian-born psychotherapist and author best known for
Mating In Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence, a landmark book that
introduced millions of couples to the conflict between intimacy and sex, and
how to be married and hot at the same time. Perels TED talk in February
attracted more than a million hits in the first month.
In a nutshell, her thesis is this: intimacy in relationships is frequently and
inexplicably the enemy of sex. The intimacy Perels referring to is the
romantic ideal of semi-conjoined couples who believe that love means
quashing mystery in favor of sweet companionship. In order for couples to
remain interested in one another, they require distance, transgression,
surprise, and play. We must be able to stand back from our partners, to
view them as separate, mysterious people, for them to remain objects of
our desire.
Desire is fueled by the unknown, Perel insists when we meet in her high
rise New York City office. Shes formidable, intense; when she looks at you
or rather through you -- the experience is unnerving (Perels jungle cat
eyes dont help).
MM: I want to start off by talking about the the relationship
between erotic life and survival.
EP: I have always been interested in the story of survival and revival. But
I did not originally connect it to eroticism. I made the connection one day
when I was talking to my husband, Jack Saul, who is the director of
International Trauma Studies Program at Drexel. He was one of the
cofounders of the Center for Victims of Torture. I said to him, "When do
you know that a torture victim comes back to life? When do you know that
they are once again in the world? What does it take for a person to

15
reconnect?" It turns out that people (come back to life when they) are able
to reconnect with creativity, vitality, and with the opposite of vigilance. You
cant play when youre vigilant. You cant play when youre anxious. You
cant play when youre fearful. You cant play when you dont trust. Thats
when I made the connection. There were two groups in the community of
Holocaust survivors that I grew up in Antwerp. There were the houses that
just had survived, but you felt deadness in them: from the curtains being
down, to the heaviness, anti-hedonism, and the inability to experience
pleasure of being alive. And then you had the houses of people who had
really experienced eroticism as an antidote to death and knew how to keep
themselves alive; to stay connected to vitality and vibrancy and exuberance
and joy and force.
Thats when I looked at the couples who complain about the listlessness of
their sex lives and realized there were two groups of couples: Couples who
are not dead and couples who are alive. I see couples who want more sex
(certainly) but mainly want to connect with the quality of renewal and
liveness and playfulness that sex used to afford them. When I work
with sexuality in couples, I rarely work on helping them having more sex.
You can have sex and feel nothing. Women have done this for centuries. I
work on the poetics of sex. I work on how they connect to their own erotic
self. Basically I work at how they beat back deadness, which I think is the
prime reason for affairs.
MM: To come back to life?
EP: Yes. That is the one thing that everyone worldwide tells me they feel
when they have an affair. That they feel alive. Many times it isnt so much
that you want to leave your partner, as you want to leave who you have
become. And it isnt so much that youre looking for another person as that
youre looking for another self. (You want) to reconnect with lost parts of
you or to discover new parts of you.
article continues after advertisement
MM: You mention that curiosity is an important aspect of
erotic happiness in couples.
EP: Yes. You want to make (your partner) someone that youre curious
about... I actually believe that people never fully know the other if they
stay curious. I have too many people in this office who realize that they
didnt know their partner when they discovered that they cheated. Why
wait until then to find out that you dont really know your partner? Its not
that you create mystery. Its that its right there, if you can tolerate it in
your midst. Some of us get anxious and want to close it down, and some
of us remain open and curious about the persistent mystery of the person
next to us.
MM: We need to see our partner as a completely separate entity?

16
EP: I took this question worldwide: When are you most drawn to your
partner? When I see my partner passionate about something, when I see
my partner in his element, when I see my partner on stage, when I see my
partner talking to other people, when I see other people attracted to her or
to him, when he plays with the kids... when she makes me laugh, when he
surprises me, when hes vulnerable, or when shes vulnerable. [Its when]
you see their wholeness. You see them as not needy and you see them
radiating. So they are emanating somethinggenerosity, kindness, joy,
force, influence, persuasionwhatever it is. But you emanate something,
you put something out there into the world when you radiate.
MM: But arent they also illuminated because of your shift in
awareness? I mean youre seeing them differently.
EP: Yes. Its when you look at them as a separate unit. [One that is]
already so familiar and so known but that is momentarily illusive and
mysterious... So theres still something to discover, so that you remain
fundamentally interested in the other person. To want to have sex with
them over the long haul, to want to enter them, is to also remain interested
in them.
MM: Let me ask you, I love what you say about some of Americas
best features resulted in boring sex. Can you elaborate a little
bit? What about America specifically?
EP: I think that some of the most powerful aspects of American culture that
bode amazingly well in some areas dont necessarily bode as well in
others. One of them is American pragmatism. So pragmatism
organization skills, efficiency, to the point, dont beat around the bush,
blatant directnessit doesnt really go that well with the suggestiveness,
the mystery, the playfulness, the seductiveness and the delayed
gratification, the connection between frustration and excitement [in sex].
MM: Americans want it now, right?
EP: Yes. Americans dont flirtthey score. Flirting is playing with the tip of
the sword. It comes from the French word meaning teasing. Its about
playing with possibility. Its not about making it happen. Its not
achievement. Americans are achievement oriented, not dream
oriented. Or they want to achieve the dream but the achievement is the
piece. Much of the complexities of love and desire are a lot more murky
and ambiguous. It isnt black and white. Black and white helps you get a
lot of things done and this society likes to get things done.
MM: What youre describing sounds patriarchal. You feel that
womenthat American womanare as goal-oriented, as pragmatic?
EP: Yes, I think the culture is bigger here than gender. I mean, I work with
people from all over the world. And its remarkable how... they will all say
the same thing about American women. And the women about American
men. You begin to see that if all foreign people see the same thing, even

17
though they may come from multiple different cultures, then they are
seeing something that is unique to this culture. You know, I think America
likes transparency. Americans really believe that honesty is a confessional
cure, and intimacy means wholesale sharing. But maybe intimacy is the
actual ability to keep things for yourself. Many other cultures do not
necessarily equate intimacy with transparency.
MM: Why do we?
EP: I think it has to do with the level of individualism and isolation [in this
culture]. Theres not many other places in the world where people are as
alone as they are in this country.
MM: And thats why we require inmediate connection?
EP: Yes. In a culture where people are so alone, [theres] the need for
(quick) connection, the need for transparency, the need for this blatant
wholesale sharingno holding back because you only have one person you
talk to so you have to tell everything to this one person. A lot of people
here dont have anyone else besides their partner.
MM: When you talk about "neutralizing each others complexity"
is that a survival tactic in long-term relationships?
EP: I think that sometimes for the purposes of securing love people want
to neutralize the complexities of the other. The whole problem with the
intimacy thing is, Tell me everything but dont tell me anything that I cant
handle. Really reckoning with the otherness of this partner and to
fundamentally accept them with all of what is frustrating about them and
all the loss that you have to incur. The mourning for what you will never
have by virtue of being with that particular person.
MM: And they wonder where their sex lives go.
EP: For me there is a connection between remaining curious and... having
a certain kind of sexuality. It doesnt mean having sex. Its about having
a certain sexualization in the relationship. Its about a certain gaze. People
can have sex once a monthwho cares? Its how they look at each other,
its how they feel in the presence of each other, its how connected they
feel to that part of themselves.
MM: You talk about the poetics of sexualityits not just about the
mechanics.
EP: The question I ask is not: Do you have sex? Its: What does sex mean
for you? Where do you go? What parts of you do you connect with
there? What parts of you get expressed there?
MM: And that brings up a lot of shame I would imagine for some
people
EP: For some people, yeah.

18
MM: So... lets say the partner disapproves of what the other person
is intois that a workable situation?
EP: Im going to give you [an] example. So, you dont like it when your
partner sits on the floor when they watch TV. So, what youre asking is
what to do when the other person doesnt particularly care for what you
want. You cant judge it... Thats the first thing. The second thing is that
sometimes people might not even ask for it. If youre going to accept me,
I want you to accept me. If youre going to know me, I want you to know
me with that part of me. If you are grossed out by that part of me, or
judgmental about it or shut it down or make fun of itthen its just going
to go underground. Im just going to disappear. Im just never going to
tell you. Our desires are going to have a perfectly good censorship around
it, if need be. You dont want to hear about it, I will never tell you about
it. And I will find other outlets. [Because] it doesnt die.
MM: You have written that when we trade passion for security, are
we trading one fantasy for another? What did you mean?
EP: I mean that in the search for permanence, we have a storyboard in
terms of romantic relationships that says passion is in the
beginning. Passion is a temporary state of insanity that is bound to be
replaced by something more tame and more long-lasting, called mature
love. Mature love comes from knowing your partner and all of these
things. And if you want to still find passion you are often not willing to
grow up or settle down or mature... There are very few comments about
passion being something good. Except in art. Everybody sucks it up in
novels and movies looking at people who are destroying themselves in
passion, but who wants to live like that in real life? There is no
permanence. And what is truth, or reality, is the fact that everything
changes. There is no real knowledge of something that is static. [So] if
reality is one fiction... now passion is another. And if youre trading passion
for reality, youre trading one fiction for another. Neither is more real. Or
more true. Or more permanent.
MM: I wasnt sure what you meant by passion being a fantasy.
EP: Passion is a fantasy. But I think reality is often a fantasy too. Or a
fiction anyway. Its a story. I dont think reality is anymore real. I think
once you love, you have to deal with the fact that you can lose that
love. Its the unbearable truthyou can lose the person to death, to illness,
and to them loving someone else. I think that is the fundamental piece.
MM: The unbearable anticipation of being replaced.
EP: That youre replaceable, that youre disposable, that youre not
unique. That somebody else can take your place.
MM: But its the discomfort of that keeps the desire going, isnt it?

19
EP: Its the discomfort of knowing that reality. If you know that reality,
you are often more likely to try to continue to present yourself at your
best. Whereas in many couples, people do not necessarily present
themselves at their best. Quite the contrary.
MM: I'd like to ask you about the men and aggression in erotic life.
This is a slippery slope and confusing for some of us.
EP: This is a huge topic. When a woman wants a man to ravish her, what
she is actually after is two things that are crucial to experiencing excitement
and pleasure. One is her narcissistic affirmation that she is irresistibleand
his persistence is a proof of that. His force with which he wants to grab her
has nothing to do with his aggressionit has to do with how irresistible she
is. Thats the turn on. The turn-on is how it makes her feel. Thats the
narcissistic affirmation.
Second is that it makes [men] not be needy. If you are aggressive that
means you are confident... In erotic terms. It means you know what you
want. And youre going after it and it is me. Therefore, you are not
fragile. You are not needy... which means you dont require care-
taking. Care-taking is the most powerful anti-aphrodisiac for women. If I
am in care-taking mode, I am in mothering mode, not lovemaking mode. I
am in taking-care-of-others mode. If care-taking is the biggest
impediment in women, the predatory fear is the biggest fear in men.
MM: Meaning?
EP: That [his] aggression is hurtful. That [his] aggression is
predatory. That I am dirty, that I want too much, that there is something
wrong with what I want. What does every woman in porn convey to
him? [She] wants it too. More so. I like it. You dont have to worry. I
am not going to reject you. You are not going to feel inadequate. You dont
have to worry about pleasing me. The three most important relational
factors in male sexuality are the fear of rejection, the fear of performance
incompetence, and the fear [of] whether she likes it or not. That you can
never really know. Youre always left with a doubt on thateven when
youre not... The more sexualized the woman, the more safe his predatory
urges are. This is definitely true between two men as well, but between
two men it is much more easy. He conveys to you that he likes it. And on
top of that men dont lie [about that].
MM: Women lie more?... You mean faking it?
EP: Yes. You will never know if she is truly liking it or not. Men dont have
the capacity to lie.
MM: That can be difficult at times. (laughs)
EP: For many men its a very reassuring thing. I think its a thing that gay
men dont have to live with. They know if the partner is into it or not. They
can trust it... I think your question is a question of Western men. And

20
Western men are in a more politically correct environment in which male
aggression has been seen as really negative, because of the abuses of
power that come with male aggression that are rampant in much of the
world. But you cant take aggression out of sex... you just dont want it to
be hurtful aggression... And thats how it becomes [the woman wanting]
both. She wants him tender and soft one moment and she wants him
lustful, aggressive and ruthless the next.
MM: Men find this very confusing.
EP: Some do. But on the other hand... men [could] see it as an invitation,
that they can have multiple parts of themselves in a relationship toothat
they dont have to choose one or the other. They are the nice guy or they
are the bad boy. That actually gives men the possibility to inhabit many
different roles in the relationship and in one person. So instead of seeing
it as a bind, they can see it as an invitation to multiplicity.
MM: So the trick is to somehow bring it to the same person?
EP: If you can. Not every relationship can and not every man can. But we
have a model where we think we should. We dont necessarily conceive of
a more segmented view of relationships at this point. Even the
polyamorous dont think that one relationship should be sexual and the
other should be love. Typically, I think there are multiples of love and
relationships.
MM: And different qualities
EP: I think that in that sense, gay couples have the most to teach. A lot of
gay couples, especially when you have an older person and a younger
person, its very clear that the older person says to the younger, You go
on. I receive your presence, your loyalty, your friendship, your
companionship. And in return for that, you get the possibility of being with
other sexual partners. And I think we have everything to learn from gay
couples on that front.
MM: Thats not a pain free model either.
EP: I dont know a single one that is pain free. (laughs) We're talking about
real life!

21