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Splat 2ndJan2003,11:17
Weare(wellmeatleast)taughtthatFMradioislineofsightetcetc.

WhyisitthatIcanlistentouninterruptedFMradioinmycargoingunderbridges,betweentallbuildingsetc?

TIA&HNY

FlyingForFun 2ndJan2003,11:28
Splat,

FMradiowavescanpenetratethinwalls.Otherwiseyou'dgetnoreceptiononyourstereoindoors!

FFF

Splat 2ndJan2003,14:55
Isthatallthereistoit?Evenworksissmallunderpasses,soifthat'sthecase,mustbefairlythickwallstoo.

Justcurious.

DonDCake 2ndJan2003,16:00
Radiowavesarereflectedandrefractedbyobjectssuchasbuildingssoyoucanstillreceiveevenifyoucannot"see"
thetransmitter.Kindofthinkofitasnotbeingplungedintototaldarknessifyoudonothavedirectlineofsightofthe
sun(afteralllightisjustelectromagneticradiation).

Cardinal 3rdJan2003,02:32
I'mgonnaventureoutonalimbhere,causeIcan'treadilysupportmyanswer.Butaren'touraviation
communicationsradiosAM?Whichofcoursedoesperishundertheoverpass,atthedrivethrough,etc.

luxflyer 3rdJan2003,03:18
Cardinal,

Radiopropagationismainlyamatteroffrequency.Modulation(FM/AM)isfairlyneglectablehere.Whatwecommonly
callFMradio,arethefreqs.inthe88108MHzrange.Rememberthataviationcommunicationtakesplaceinthe
118137MHzrange,andthuswillbesubjecttosimilarpropagationconditionsthanFMradio,i.e.lineofsight.AM
broadcastradiotakesplaceinthe0.51.7MHzrange,thereforepropagationisdifferenthere.It'sjustamatterof
frequency...basically.

SomeonecorrectmeifI'mwrong,butthereasonweuseAMinaviation(Ibelieve)isthatyouneedmuchless
separationbetweenchannels.Channelspacinginaviationiscurrentlyaslowas8.33kHzusingAM,asopposedto50
kHzusedforFMbroadcast.

Inanutshell:

Highfrequencies(65+MHz)propagatenearlyin"lineofsight",FMisusedwherequalityisimportant(e.g.FMradio
broadcast),AMisusedwherequalityislessimportant,butmanychannelsareneeded(e.g.aviationcomm,AM
radio...).

Hopethatwasmoreorlesscorrect,
greetings...

Luxflyer,5amlocal)

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jtr 3rdJan2003,03:18
FMstopsat108.0mHzwhereIcomefrom,andA/CVHFstartsat118.0mHz.Sothatmakesthemalmostneighbours
(Ithink),andbothintheVHFpartofthespectrum(Ithink).

AMisaround500kHz1700kHz(0.51.7mHz),whichputsitintheMFpart.

LFMFHFVHFUHF...............InfraRedLight

Editedforanother(ithink)

411A 3rdJan2003,06:04
AmplitudemodulationisusedwithATCcommunicationsbecause...
iftwostationstransmitatthesametime,itisheardas"garbled",whereasiffrequencymodulationwasused,onlythe
strongersignalwouldbeheard.
Inshort,'tisasafetymeasure.

quixote 3rdJan2003,07:15
'AmplitudemodulationisusedwithATCcommunicationsbecause...'

Notso.
EngineerEdwinArmstronginventedFrequencyModulation(FM)in1932butcommercialdevelopmentofFMwas
strenuouslyopposedbycommercialinterestswithmajorinvestmentsinAM,includingRadioCorporationofAmerica
andtheBritishMarconiCompany.ThecorporationsknewthatpublicacceptanceofanddemandforstaticfreeFM
broadcastingwoulddestroytheirheavyinvestmentinAMtransmissionequipmentandtheypreventedFM's
widespreadusagetillthe'50s.TiredofbattlingagainstmajorcorporationsforyearstoestablishFM,Armstrong
suicidedin1954.
Bythetimethepatentandcommercialbattleshadsubsided,AmplitudeModulation(AM)waswellestablishedfor
aviationuseandthebenefitsofofinterferencefreereceptionforaviationwerenotseentooutweighthecostof
equipmentconversiontoFM.
Fortunatelythecommercialinterestsbehindinternalcombustionengineswereunabletopreventthedevelopmentof
jetengines.
Don
http://www.vietnamvetsmuseum.org/qxs.gif

FlyingForFun 3rdJan2003,08:24
Agreecompletelywiththeresponsesonthedifferencebetweenfrequencybandsandmodulationtypesit'sthe
frequencywhichdeterminesthepropogationofthewave.ThequestionwasaskingaboutFMsignalsintheVHFband,
asusedbycommercialradiostations.

BacktotheoriginalquestionofVHF(notFM)propogation,though...I'dbesurprisedifreflectionisreallyvery
significant,althoughIdon'thaveanynumberstobackthisup.IfVHFwaveswerereflectedoffbuildings,radio
reception(FMradioandaviationcomms)wouldbefullofechoesaswepickupawholeloadofreflectionsoffany
buildingsinthevicinity.

DoesanyoneactuallyhaveanynumbersonattenuationofVHFsignals,bothreflectedoffofcommonmaterialssuch
asbuildings,andpassingthroughthesematerials?

FFF

SelectZoneFive 3rdJan2003,09:34
ThewayIunderstanditisthatVHF/UHFradiowavesposessrelativelylowenergy(comparedtolight)andtherefore
arenotabsorbedbysolidobjectsbutsimplypassthroughthem.Thereisindeedsomereflectionbutnotofhigh
enoughenergytoexistforverylongandanyway,thewavesaretravellingatthespeedoflightsoany'echo'would
beinstantaneous.

Unlessthetunnelisparticularlylong/deepsothethickerthewallthemoretheenergyisabsorbedandthereforewe
getradioblackspotsinsometunnels.

phnuff 3rdJan2003,10:39
Thisisaninterestingdebateandonethatseemstoopenafewquestions.Thinkingintermsof'non'aviationradioIfI
drivemycarthroughtheHatfieldTunnelontheA1whichhasabendinthemiddlesoyoucantseerightthrough,I
canpickupamradiostationsallthewaythroughforexampleradio5on909Mhz.FMstationshowever(93.5Mhz)do
notworkrightthrough...butmobilephones,howeverwhichinthiscountryareFMoperatingateither900of1800
Mhzdoworkrightthroughthetunnel.Fromthis,IguesstheconclusionswouldbethatAMradioismorepenetrating
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thanlowfrequencyfm,howeverasthefrequencyofFMgetshigheritbecomesmorepenetrating(orpossiblybetter
reflected?).

Ok,thishaslittletodowithaviation(unlessyouwanttotryflyingaCessnathroughtheHatfieldTunnel),butif
anyonecanfullyexplainmyobservationinthercontextofthisdebate,Iwouldbeinterestedtohearit.

RadarContact 3rdJan2003,10:52
Mobileshaveahighersignalenergythancarradios(atthereceiver'send,thatis)

error_401 3rdJan2003,11:21
Evensimpler.

ReflectionandRefractionfrombuildingsarenearthereceiverandthereforedonotnecessarilybeshiftedintimeso
muchthattheycauseechos.

Inaviationsometimeswehavetodealwithreflectionsfromfurtherawayobstaclesthenthetimedifference
becomesnoticeable.Especiallyatlowbands.AMorFMdoesn'tmatteratall.

Radiowavesdonotpenetratetoofarintobuildingsortheground.Especiallynotinconcretebuildings.Inwooden
housesastationmaybereceivedthroughout.

Tunnelsusuallyshieldradiowaves.Butsomearereflectedfromtheroadsurfacethanfromthewallsthat'swhy
youcanreceiveastationattheentranceevenonhighfrequencies.Lowbandreflectsbetterandmightbereceived
throughoutthetunnel.
Butconsiderthis.Manytunnelsareequippedwithsendingantennasfirstforconveniencethenforsafety
transmissions!
Thesameisvalidforcellphones!

DonDCake 3rdJan2003,11:21
Reflectionofradiowavesissignificantandcancausereceptionproblemsknownas"multipath",althoughitcanalso
enablereceptionwhenoutof"lineofsight"asImentionedearlier.Mostmaterialswillreflectfairlywellbutlarge,flat
metallicobjectsarethebest(thegroundisverygoodtoo!).Treesarenotverygoodatallandwillabsorbmostofthe
signal.

WhenaRFsignalisreflecteditspolarityisinverted,itisalsoattenuatedbyatleast3dBiehalf.Theamountof
attenuationdependsonthereflectingmaterial'scompositionandsurface.Whenthedirectandreflectedsignalsarrive
atthereceivertheymaybeinphaseandadd,beoutofphaseandsubtractorbesomewhereinbetween.Ifthe
receiverismobile,thismaycausemultipathfadingifthedirectsignalisweak.ThisisusuallyonlyaproblemwithAM
receiversasFMreceiverswill"capture"thestrongestsignal.Multipathreceptionisthecauseof"ghosting"on
televisionreceiversasthevisionsignalisAM.

AgreatexampleofmultipathinterfencehasbeencausedbythebuildingofthetowersatCanaryWharfinLondon.
Theglassofthebuldingsismetallisedtomakeitlookaprettysilvercolour.Howeverthebuildingsactsasperfect
reflectorsforthetelevisionbroadcastsignalsfromCrystalPalalcemakingtelevsionreceptionforsomepeopleinthe
SouthEastimpossible.

Anexample....

TakeaPALtelevisonthathasa"ghost"imageonefifthofthescreenwidthalongfromthemainimage.

Thereare625linesataframerateof25persecond.Thatgivesalinerateof15.625kHz.Thatmeansonelineis
transmittedin64uShenceafifthofalinein1.28uS.Sothe"ghost"signalarrives1.28uSlaterthanthemainsignal.
RFtravelsat300,000,000m/Ssotheghostsignalhastravelled3.84kmfurtherthanthemainsignal.

phnuff 3rdJan2003,11:45
Justtocomplicatethings,IhavelookedontheInternetanddiscoveredthatmobilephonesuseasystemknownas
TDMA(TimedivisionmultipleAccess)whichsplitsa30khzchannelintoupto8timesliceswitheachuserworkingthe
channelbeingallocatedslotsasrequired.NowatthispointIthinkmyscenarioabouttheHatfieldTunnelandthe
abilitytouseamobilerightthroughisevenmorecomplexandatthispointIamgoingtoretiretosomewherethat
sellsheadachepills!!

411A 3rdJan2003,15:41
Quixote,
Yourhistoryismoreorlesscorrect,butyourtheoryismostdefinatelywrong.
Suggestyoufindalicensedradioengineerandhemightexplainittoyouintermsthatpossiblyyoucan
understand...)

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DonDCake 3rdJan2003,16:09
Inanutshell....

FMgoodsignaltonoiseatapenaltyofhighbandwith

AMlowbandwidthatapenaltyofpoorsignaltonoise

Youpaysyourmoney....

Bytheway,evenalousyperformancenarrowbandFMsystemusing5kHzofdeviationandapeakaudiofrequency
of3kHzstillneedsabandwidthof17.5kHznogoodfor8.33kHzspacing.

SEObyvBSEO3.6.1

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