Dor Bahadur Bistas Last Interview

Gunaraj Luitel
Sunday, March 2, 2014
4 Comments

On June 3, 1995, I had the opportunity to meet the much-debated sociologist Dor Bahadur Bista for an interview at his
residence in Lalitpur. Ethnic identity politics had been gaining momentum in the years following the establishment of
multiparty democracy. In a society that was slowly beginning to open up, Bista had introduced the idea of Bahunism into
the public discourse.

Different aspects of our polity were yet to open up, however. I interviewed Bista for Jana Aasthaa weekly, accompanied by
the photographer Santosh Pokhrel. While discussing social specificities, Bista put forward the claim that the ancestors of
the Shah Kings were ethnic Magars. The newspaper used this statement as the headline. Controversy ensued. Despite the
advent of democracy, the Royal Palace still resembled an island.
Bistas comments remain explosive. He articulated his academic findings in very clear terms. These were not merely his
opinions: it had been three years since he had set up the Karnali Institute in Chaudhabisa, Jumla. This interview was
scheduled during one of his visits to Kathmandu.

I still remember Bista vividly. He disappeared or perhaps, was made to disappear within days of this interview, 18 years
ago. The search for him continues. We had a long conversation on the front porch of his house. I remember thinking then
that his ideas were too advanced for us. We had agreed to continue the conversation at a later date, but it was not to be.

Communalist expressions such as pointy-nosed and flat-nosed, meaning Aryans and non-Aryans,
are becoming more common in Nepal. Whats the reason for this?
Its very natural for people to be talking about ethnic issues now. Of the two ethnicities in Nepal, the Khas and the Kirat, the
former migrated more. Khas-Arya people were nomads who raised livestock. They moved quickly through the grasslands
with fast-moving animals such as cows, horses, goats, sheep and dogs.

The Kirat, on the other hand, because they inhabited the foothills of the Himalaya, southern China, Burma and Thailand,
which were densely vegetated and received plenty of rainfall, had a more sedentary lifestyle. Therefore they kept slower-
moving animals such as buffaloes and pigs. The Kirats advance to the west was slower. When the Khas moved eastwards,
their rapid advance meant that they overran and established dominance over the smaller groups they encountered along the
way.
The slow-moving Kirat appear to have come to Kathmandu, and only moved some way into the west. Khas dominance
increased in this manner. When history doesnt teach us how certain groups progressed, when schools dont teach us, this
discourse of pointy-nosed dhoti-clad people dominating becomes prevalent.

How many people have understood your concept of Bahunism?

I am very happy that quite a few young Bahuns (Brahmins) are beginning to understand it. When I first talked about
Bahunism, it was felt that I was scolding Bahuns. The old order feared that if Bahuns were attacked, Hinduism would not
survive, and if Hindus couldnt survive, then they too would be unable to survive.

But thats not true. We should live as Nepalis. As a Nepali, follow the religion you want, eat the dal and vegetables you want,
build your house in the style you want, get married to the partner of your choice, and choose your own brand of motorcycle,
who has objected to anything?
What is Bahunism then?
Essentially, Bahunism is that which perpetuates fatalism: whatever you have now is what you have earned through your
previous lives, and your efforts now wont result in anything.

As long as we believe that our lives are determined by the Almighty and embrace this theory of fatalism, we will lack drive.
Without this, how will we ever be happy?

The idea of waiting for someone else to come and give us our bread, of holding out a begging bowl across the world, has been
perpetuated by all our governments. This is shameful, and is the result of Nepalis becoming fatalistic.

The fatalism of the Bahuns has rendered us unenterprising. This is why I call it Bahunism. Until we root out Bahunism,
the country will not move forward. The country will not progress until its citizens become dynamic.

As someone who is fluent in Sanskrit, you were probably very happy when the UML (United Marxist-
Leninist) government started broadcasting news in Sanskrit on Radio Nepal?
There was absolutely no need to broadcast news in Sanskrit. A Marxist government that was meant to be uprooting
misguided traditions ended up defending Sanskrit. Some shortsighted pundits felt, wrongly, that if Sanskrit were tagged on
somewhere it would benefit the Bahun class and protect the Hindu religion, and started the news broadcast. But Sanskrit is
not a language that needs further development.

Some people consider Sanskrit a dead language because it isnt spoken anywhere anymore. There are many important
books written in Sanskrit; what is needed is to read them and learn from them. There is no need to further develop the
language itself. Had they started a broadcast in the Chepang language instead, at least two Chepangs would have been able to
understand national affairs. Who are we trying to educate with this Sanskrit broadcast?

Youve started defining the Khas as janjati, an ethnicity. What is the rationale behind this?
I dont think any other group in Nepal is as oppressed, poor and marginalized as the Khas. It is the largest ethnic group. The
modern Nepali language (Khas Kura), being mixed with many other languages, is very different from the ancient Khas
language. Whom do we call janjati if not a group like the Khas, with its own language, its own geographical territory, its own
traditions, which does not worship gods and goddesses, and does not employ Bahun priests?
One of the things I am doing in Jumla is to identify the Khas as janjati. Intellectuals such as Dr. Prapannacharya and Pandit
Chhabi Lal Pokhrel have started the trend of converting Kirat into janai-wearing Bahuns. The challenge we face today is in
preparing the janjati for the future. But people are running after a 200-rupee janai. If this is the situation today, what must
have it been like to be a Bahun six centuries ago?
When the nobles of the great Khas empire were told that they were Thakuris and given the janai, they felt honoured. The
remaining Khas were told they were Shudras. The janai-wearing Khas started thinking of their own Khas brothers as lower
caste. I have gone there to correct this deception by the ancestors.
You have been working in Chaudhabisa, Jumla to test ideas from your book Fatalism and Development.
How successful has the experiment been?
Bahuns never said anything progressive. They only spread the falsehood that giving alms to Bahuns would guarantee a place
in heaven. If the Bahuns really believed in heaven, they would have been the first to go there. Because of fatalism we became
unenterprising. Bahunism constrained peoples talents. And no such constrained group lost as much as the Khas did.

Therefore it became very difficult for the Khas to rise again. I had initially thought about going to the east after I
wrote Fatalism and Development. But theres already a stirring among the Kirat there. So I headed to the Khas region. Yogi
Naraharinath is also a Khas. He goes around as a Bahun. But he hasnt said the things that I have said about the Khas. Yogi
Naraharinath too has the weakness of seeing things through the lens of Hindu caste hierarchy.
Naraharinath has considered the decline of the Khas only in a political context, not from the point of view of history. I have
looked at why the Khas have been kept underfoot from the point of view of society, economy and culture. Until the Khas
themselves realize that they need to rise up, theres no hope for Nepals future, not on your life. Instead, Nepal will suffer
from the politics of ethnic identity. My intentions are not communalistic they are to establish the Khas as a janjati group.
Recently, theres been a big controversy over the issue of beef-eating. What do you think?
Its a non-issue. Padma Ratna Tuladhars initial stance and subsequent apology are both political statements. The truth is
that Nepal has been a beef-eating nation since ancient times. To this day we see people eating beef they do. It is not as
though we dont have the tradition of slaughtering cows. Only when Nepal became a Hindu kingdom did cow slaughter
become a punishable crime, and the practice was pushed underground.

Cow slaughtering went underground just like politics during the Rana regime or the proponents of multiparty politics under
the Panchayat regime. This is not really about cows, its about targeting Padma Ratna for talking about this, for communal
reasons.

Meanwhile people tired of eating beef clandestinely have also started making trouble. There are reports of cow-slaughter in
Syangja and Dolakha; these people were not incited by Padma Ratnas speech, theyve always been eating beef. Its just an
excuse to pick a fight. If it were not the issue of cow slaughter, it would have been something else.

Yogi Naraharinath has made a very big issue out of the incidents of cow slaughter. How do you view this?
I would not have made such a big deal of it. To make such a big fuss about anything is to incite riot. Such riots can take a
violent turn. One should engage with the long term. One should not be invested in such fickle issues.

What advice would you give to the Bahun youth?

I tell the sons of purohits the older generation will not change. So instead of collecting alms, learn to live off your own hard
work and enterprise. Rather than reciting the purana and lying to people by telling them, Give us alms, you will fly to
heaven, engage in productive work.
Youve repeatedly asserted that the Shah Kings are of Magar stock. What evidence is there for this?
The assertion that the king who unified Nepal must have been a Kshatriya was made by ignorant Bahuns. A king has to
defend his kingdom, no matter what his title is. I look into the history of development; I am not interested in the history of
rulers and the changing dynamics of their power.
Among our kings ancestors there were individuals named Micha and Khhancha. People have taken these to be Muslim
names. But in the Magar language, micha means eldest and khhancha means youngest. With Muslim influence
names such as Singh and Khan appeared. If indeed the ancestors of our kings had fled here from Chittorgarh, why would
a Hindustani Rajput have to call his sons eldest (micha) and youngest (khhancha)? Prithvi Narayan Shahs maternal
uncle, Digbandhan Sen, was a Magar. His mother was also a Magar.

There are three main Devi temples in Nepal Lasarga Devi in Palpa, and Gorakhkali and Manakamana in Gorkha. Only
Magar priests can officiate at these temples. In fact, sacrificing pigs and offering liquor are common in Palpas Lasarga Devi.
Now they sacrifice boars instead of pigs.

We are given lame assertions regarding the notion of people coming to Nepal and becoming kings. Would someone whos
fled their kingdom be told by the locals Oh, youre here! Be our king? Theres no evidence anywhere that they defeated the
existing rulers. Thats why Ive said that the ancestors of our kings are Magars. I have not said anything new.

This interview, originally published in Jana Aasthaa, appeared in the Annapurna Post on 18 January 2014.