Talk Show Assignment

ENG 111

Grace: Hello, and welcome to The New Intellect. Im your host, Grace Shaw, and today we are
continuing our study on education, and how certain requirements and methods of teaching
might be hindering a students ability to be a critical thinker. Last week we had freedom
philosopher Paulo Friere on the show, who shared his thought provoking theory of education
replicating a banking concept. To continue the conversation and comment on Freires ideas,
we have our featured guests of Mike Rose and Jack Mezirow.

*Rose and Mezirow enter room*

Grace: Mr. Rose and Mr. Mezirow, would you two please introduce yourselves and let our
audience know what makes you credible to speak on this subject? Mr. Rose, why dont you
start for us.

Rose: Thanks for having me here today. My name is Mike Rose, and I have teaching experience
from everywhere in and between kindergarten, job training, and adult literacy programs. I have
also written multiple famous books on education, including my most popular one Lives on the
Boundary: The Struggles and Achievements of Americas Underprepared. I have also recently
been elected to the National Academy of Education.

Grace: You definitely have some impressive credentials, and we are glad to have you. Mr.
Mezirow, would you mind introducing yourself?

Mezirow: I am excited to be joining in on the discussion today. I am both a sociologist and a

past Emeritus Professor at Teachers College in Columbia University. I have developed a theory
that adult learners who struggle with education have the ability to turn around their bad habits,
and make the best out of their education. I developed that theory further into my book
Transformative Learning: Theory to Practice.

Grace: Great to have you both. Lets start the conversation off with where Freire and I left off
on the last show. Freire brought up a quote from his book Pedagogy of the Oppressed, The
solution is not to integrate themselves into the structure of oppression, but to transform that
structure so that they can become beings for themselves. Would either of you care to
comment on that thought?

Mezirow: Considering that the word transform is used in his quote in regard to learning, I am
in complete agreeance with Mr. Freire. In order to transform our educations structure from
oppressing to encouraging autonomy, the teacher must help the students to alter the structure
to fit their frame of reference. For example, the teacher must avoid a teaching method that
only connects with a small of amount of the class. Instead, they should strive to draw
connections to each students frame of reference. Frame of reference is the structure of an
assumption through which we understand our experiences. Freire is saying we as teachers
should be transforming the structure of our teaching to fit the students structure of their
frame of reference. Whether that is drawing connections to their discourses or interests, or
simply breaking it down to a simpler level for them to understand, we must be making an effort
to letting the students commit to their own ideas instead of what we think should be their
ideas.

Grace: Interesting connection. Rose, I know you talk tremendously about teacher effort as well,
would you care to share your thoughts?

Rose: Of course, Grace. I have taught many different types of students, but there is one that
comes to mind when speaking on the subject of teacher effort. I once met with a student
named James, who explained to me why he was upset that he got a C- on his English paper. The
paper was supposed to be a critical analysis of a academic writing, and James only summarized
the writing instead of analyzing it. However, even after I tried to explain that to him, he just got
offended and said, I am not a C- student. This really opened my eyes to how his past
curriculum, and the ones teaching it, missed the mark on educating James to critically analyze.
They did not address his weaknesses, or nurture his strengths. Instead, they focused more on
test scores and tallying the wrong answers on assignments. They were trying to cover up the
symptoms instead of diagnosing the problem. This was a total failure on their part, and the C-
was not Jamess fault.

Grace: How sad that our secondary school education system is becoming so one track minded.
It is definitely handicapping our youth of today. Mr. Rose, both Mr. Freire and Mr. Mezirow
both agree that the more discourse integrated into education the better. I know you have
shared with me an occasion with a different past student of yours that relates to this idea of
discourse in the classroom, would you care to share that?

Rose: Sure. Regarding Mr. Mezirows comment on discourse, I once met with a student named
Lucia who was having troubles in her psychology class. She was taking abnormal psychology,
and was told to analyze The Myth of Mental Illness by Thomas Szasz. This book is known to
being extremely controversial, and Lucia could definitely see why. Szasz stated in his book that
mental illness was nothing but a hoax. For Lucia, who had a brother with a severe mental
illness, this was completely against her views. Lucia also did not agree with some of Szaszs
statements regarding religion, and his reference of Sigmund Freud as God, considering her
catholic faith. Not only did these things make it harder for her to find his theories possible, but
it also inhibited her to ability to even read or understand the words of his writing. Discourse can
help with education on some superficial levels, such as giving examples, but they can also
seriously hinder a students ability to think critically. When they hold on to their views so tightly
that no other concept can come into their mind, they resemble a horse with blinders.

Mezirow: Mike, not all students with strong views are doomed to remaining close minded
individuals. In a situation like Lucias, her abnormal psychology teacher should have helped her
reach outside her habit of mind. Habit of mind is very similar to point of view. It may seem
impossible for some students to break free from certain habits of mind, but this is definitely not
the case. A student should be encouraged not to change their views completely, but to simply
practice looking at the idea from a different perspective. What Lucia is in need of is some
communicative learning. This is based on at least two persons striving to reach an
understanding of the meaning of an interpretation or the justification for a belief. In this case, it
would be beneficial for Lucia to speak one-on-one with her professor on how to interpret this
writing by Szasz outside of her habit of mind, since she is obviously struggling to reach the
consensus on her own. This might include finding the problem that is holding Lucia back from
going beyond her own point of view.

Grace: Your comment on problem solving, Mr. Mezirow, reminds me of a point Freire brought
up last week. Freire theorized that a problem-posing method of education is much more
effective when teaching, compared to the widely used banking concept of education. He
mentions that students feel increasingly challenged, and even obligated, to respond to the
challenges they face, and this includes their schoolwork or education. Would either one of you
care to comment on that?

Mezirow: I often say that transformative learning is not an add-on. You cant simply think of
integrating transformative learning into your education, you must base your education around
it. One way of doing this is through educational interventions. Whether this is between
students and the instructor, a tutor, or a peer, it allows a student to develop both skills and the
motivation to meet their challenges. When you are in conversation with another person, and
both parties (in most cases the professor and the student) are treated with the same level of
worth, they can have a respectful debate on their ideas. This is problem-posing, and eventually
leads to a spark inside the student to succeed. When a student practices breaking down their
points of views from feedback from another party, they start to understand the problem they
are facing in their learning. After all, points of view are more accessible to awareness and to the
feedback from others. When the feedback is present, and the professor poses problems in the
students logic they that expect the student to solve, that is where true transformative learning
takes place.

Rose: Freire makes a great point on problem posing. In my book Lives on the Boundary, I state
that it is a source of exasperation to many freshmen that the university is so predisposed to
question past solutions, to seek counter explanations, and to continually turn something nice
and clean and clear into a problem. Problem posing is so foreign of a concept to students, that
the very idea of it and how much effort it demands out of them is exhausting. If students were
introduced to this type of teaching early on in their education, students of mine like Lucia and
James would most likely not be struggling with the things they are struggling with.

Grace: You both bring up such interesting thoughts, and I am afraid we are out of time for
today. Big thanks to our two guests Jack Mezirow and Mike Rose, and we hope you watch us
next week when our next guest, the extremely outspoken Gerald Graff, joins us to add his
contribution to the conversation. Have a great night, and keep striving to better yourselves.