From disorder to political action:

Conversations that invite collective considerations to individual experiences

of women who express concerns about eating and their bodies

by Kristina J. Lainson

Kristinas counselling work to date has been at a small community service in Aotearoa
New Zealand. She can be contacted by email: kristina.lainson@icloud.com

Abstract
This article describes an interweaving of narrative practices which has proved helpful for
a number of women experiencing concerns about eating and its effects on their bodies.
Through the stories of two young women, this paper illustrates how, by inviting collective
ideas to individual experiences, and by recognising and naming their own commitments and
agentive responses to societal expectations, the women became able to move away from
ideas of stuckness towards a sense of themselves as influential both in their own lives and
possibly in the lives of others similarly concerned.

Key words: women, eating disorders, anti-anorexia, anorexia, bulimia, collective,

political, narrative therapy

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 I work in a small community counselling service mostly with
women, many of whom are in their teens or twenties, and are
students at school or university. Describing themselves as
high achievers in academic and other realms, many hold a
variety of privileges fitting in to Western ideas of appearance,
family resources, and access to opportunities, which might
reasonably invite predictions of leading fairly robust and
successful lives according to dominant Western criteria.
Yet they all speak of experiencing pervasive and disruptive
anxiety, stress, and sadness; concerns about eating and their
bodies that have them engaging in practices that become
named anorexia and bulimia; and sometimes self-harm and/
or thoughts of hopelessness and suicide, usually relating to
some sense of personal inadequacy or possibility of imminent
failure2. In this article, I describe my conversations with two of
these women, Ruby and Natalia. The conversation style, an
interweaving of narrative practices, seems to show promise in
finding ways forward.

I would love you to write about Introducing Ruby

our conversations; word needs Ruby was 17 years old. She attended a local high school
to get out about this. and came to see me at the request of her mother, who had a
number of concerns about her daughters increasing sadness
Rosalind1 and withdrawal from her usual activities, and hoped that
counselling would help. Ruby, on the other hand, held out
no such hopes, but agreed to meet with me in an attempt
to alleviate some of her mothers concern. Ruby herself did
not see the point, and was very clear about this from our first
meeting. I enquired what she wanted us to do about that. I am
not in the habit of coercing people into counselling; so I tried
to ensure that Ruby did not feel pressured. We discussed
whether there was any point to our conversations. We agreed
that at least for one or two sessions, we would chat about life
and her mothers concerns.

In our initial conversations, by following Michael Whites

Statement of Position Maps (White, 2007), Ruby was able
to externalise and name severe depression and bad
body image3 as being problematic for her, describing their
increasing influence on her life. Severe depression, Ruby
determined, was due to a chemical imbalance in her brain,
having already been prescribed medication, but given that
she did not believe in taking medications, she held out no
hopes for any improvement whatsoever. She also told me that
she regarded bad body image as a permanent companion,
an inevitable part of not matching up to high personal
standards. But it did present a problem because it often
spoiled or excluded her from activities and social events she
might otherwise have enjoyed, persuaded her to skip meals
and was now trying to prevent her from attending school.
Severe depression often hung around at those times, too,
and supported bad body image in curtailing her activities.

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Our dilemma
I had enquired of Ruby whether she had any ideas about how
bad body image had insinuated itself into her life, inviting the
possibility that there were pressures for her to look a certain
way. As part of being transparent in my practice, I do tell the
people I work with if I have some ideas about how problems
may be constituted, but also that I do not hold a monopoly on
ideas, and although Ruby agreed these external pressures
existed, she was quite sure they did not apply in her case.
She was a photographer herself and knew a great deal about
Photoshop, critical media literacy, and the persuasive tricks of
advertisers and marketers that have girls and women feeling
inadequate about themselves and their bodies. She was
adamant that she was not taken in by this. Nor did she hold
any beliefs that she had to limit herself to prescribed ways of
looking or being as a young woman. She had evidence of this
because she found many of her female friends conversations
annoying and boring. She was very clear, however, that as a
photographer and an artist she knew what beauty was. She
said she had high standards which she had entirely set for
herself and bad body image was related to not measuring
up to this unshakeable knowing. She assured me this was
intrinsic to her and discussions of alternative positions on
beauty, or questioning its importance, were irrelevant because
these were her firmly held personal beliefs.
This was not an entirely unusual scenario for me to be faced
with, and these can be difficult conversations in which to gain
a foothold. The problem story is intelligently constructed,
well-evidenced, seamlessly articulated, and any escape
routes carefully sealed off. There was much in her world
which supported her in taking in an internal-state view of her
situation, and she was not easily convinced of any hope or
possibilities for anything being considered otherwise. Often,
when a person has come to understand an internalised and
individualised descriptor of their difficulty, it can be a relief
to them to hear alternative viewpoints. A solo parent who
is experiencing feelings of failure and being overwhelmed
might welcome a discussion about discourses of parenthood,
or a conversation about social injustices and the rising cost
of housing. It may come as a relief that the sense of failure
they are experiencing may be viewed in the light of collective
responsibility. However, in Rubys case, as with several
others like her, the societal aspect of their concerns has often
been well canvassed and discussed already, and not without
creating difficulties of its own. Ruby assured me that she
knew only too well not to take any notice of media images,
and wanting to look like models is shallow and stupid.
Saukko (2008) argues that current discourses about eating
disorders inform sufferers on how to view their experiences
and can be contradictory, pointing out how popularly-
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circulated theories can be both politically progressive
and psychologically healing while at the same time being
blatantly sexist and humiliating, because they often rest
on ideas of womens lack of autonomy and vulnerability to
beauty ideals (p. 44). The young women I work with do not
lack discernment. They often have aspirations to become
doctors, journalists, or academics. They are well aware that
their career ambitions require them to enter male-dominated
environments, and their refusal to be limited by societys
prescriptions for their femininity is a dearly held value. It is
important to tread very carefully, because any hint of me
suggesting their difficulties are due to being taken in by
fashion and appearance-based advertising, or that they have
allowed traditional discourses of womanhood to infiltrate their
thinking, is not only to add insult to injury, but would support
ideas that young women are gullible, easily distracted, and
have nothing better on their minds than to starve themselves
in a frivolous attempt to be decorative.
Introducing the ideas
As I contemplated this apparent impasse, I thought about how
Ruby was getting along in this situation. I wondered at how
lonely and isolating her experience seemed to be. On the face
of it, she seemed so resigned to her fate, and I certainly did
not want to abandon her there. But our dilemma remained.
How could we converse in a way that would engage her
and not be an affront, considering her well-educated and
considered position on the matter?
In his book Collective narrative practice, David Denborough
(2008) writes about Broadening the horizon (p. 177) and
recognising that a persons commitments and experiences
are not merely individualistic. In Western therapeutic culture,
we are inclined to privilege individual problems and concerns,
individual hopes and endeavours. Yet Denborough goes
beyond suggesting that we as practitioners simply consider
whether a person might relate more readily to collective
consideration, and invites us to look beyond dualistic
approaches to individualism and collectivism and see that
the two concepts can, and often do, co-exist within a single
conversation through forms of speech. Noting that all cultures
engage with both the language of the collective, by referring
to we, and that of the individual, by using I, frequently
moving fluidly between the two, Denborough describes how
it becomes possible, when we weave these two languages
together by moving in and out between collective hopes
(we) and personal experience (I), for conversations to
be held in terms of both personal and collective endeavour
(pp. 179181). I wondered if it might pique Rubys intellectual
curiosity to speak for others as well as for herself. The
following is a reconstruction of that conversation.
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Kristina: As you will know, its a long time since I was
at school and I am thinking that school life and
conversations might have changed considerably
during that time. I am trying to remember what
conversations my friends and I had, but I dont
recall discussing appearance to the extent you
have mentioned your friends discussing it. Do you
think I would notice a difference in conversations
if I was to return to school now?
Ruby: Hell, yeah! Everyone talks about it all the time.
Oh my thighs are soo fat even though they
arent. Its boring. [flops back in her seat somewhat
dramatically]
Kristina: Those conversations are happening all the time?
Ruby: All the time.
Kristina: That sounds intense.
Ruby: It is. [sighing]
Kristina: Why do you think that intensity surrounding such
matters happens?
Ruby: Social media, celebrity stuff, advertising
everyone gets taken in.
Kristina: I guess it cant be easy. I mean, were pretty
bombarded these days arent we, with advertising
and so on?
Ruby: Yup, completely bombarded.
Kristina: Where do you think the bombardment happens
most? What have you noticed?
Ruby: Oh, its everywhere. Thats why you have to
ignore it, its so dumb. [rolling her eyes]
Kristina: I read about a study a while ago which said
that even two to three minutes of appearance-
based advertising has a negative impact on
how we feel about ourselves.4 [I am introducing
these ideas as a tentative prospect for her
consideration.] I wonder if thats true. How much
of that advertising do you think we get exposed
to each day or week?
Ruby: More than two to three minutes. More like two to
three hours. [Ruby has a slight tone of disgust in
her voice.]
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Kristina: So how do young women cope, growing up
with that around them? [I ask this with genuine
curiosity.] I mean, when I was younger it would
have been bad enough but nothing like now.
Whats it like, say, for the young women at your
school, growing up with all of that around?
[This is valuable knowledge she may hold.]
Ruby: Thats why everyone is taken in by it. Thats why
everyone thinks theyre fat because they havent
got a thigh gap or whatever. Its all around us all
the time, and it doesnt help when everyone talks
about it. [She seems exasperated by the business
of everyone talking about it.]
I was not surprised by Rubys astute awareness, and am not
alone in noticing that so many of the women who are living
with that which is called anorexia (Lock, Epston & Maisel,
2004) and similar difficulties, are less overtly concerned with
issues of fashion and popularity than they are with social and
global issues (Duker & Slade, 1988). These are often young
women who care greatly about matters of social justice,
human and animal rights, and the environment. A familiar
statement is, I want to recover/get over this/get better so
I can make a difference in the world. In their book Changing
our minds, Kitzinger & Perkins (1993) argue that modernist
approaches to mental wellbeing simultaneously support
the sentiment behind this statement while actively blocking
its realisation: Psychology suggests that only after healing
yourself can you begin to heal the world (p. 189). This notion
has seeped into daily conversation, and I have lost track of
the number of times I have seen on Facebook an emotive
image overlaid with some version of :You cant love/respect
anyone else until you have learned to love/respect yourself,
invariably attracting a lot of likes. However, Kitzinger &
Perkins (1993) go on to say:
We disagree. People do not have to be perfectly
functioning, self-actualized human beings in order to
create social change The vast majority of those
we admire for their political work go on struggling for
change not because they have achieved self-fulfilment
(nor in order to attain it), but because of their ethical
and political commitments, and often in spite of their
own fears, self-doubts, personal angsts, and self-
hatreds. (p. 189)
So it surely follows that where non-eating and body regulation
are acts of conforming to oppressive and patriarchal societal
demands (Gremillion, 2003; Maisel, Epston & Borden, 2004;
Malson & Burns, 2009), then there is the possibility for taking
political action on a minute-to-minute basis (Hutton, 2008) by
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not going along with, or resisting the demands of, anorexia/
bad body image/bulimia, and so on. Kitzinger and Perkinss
challenge to how modernist ways of thinking both pathologise
individual experience and stymie action that might otherwise
be restorative to the individual had me wondering whether,
if taking political action can precede recovery, then we might
think of this differently. Rather than viewing the hope to make
a difference as an impetus for the personal work of recovery,
we could make available the possibility that actions taken
toward resisting anorexia/bad body image/bulimia may, in
fact, be at least part of the making a difference, which
would render the concept of recovery in this instance
redundant. From this perspective, it is as if modernist ways
of thinking had blocked Rubys exit route by insisting that
a perfect recovery is a pre-requisite to political action, yet
political action of this nature (that is, resisting anorexia/bad
body image/bulimia, and so on) would be the very stuff of
what is often named recovery. Importantly, this is not about
taking action in order to achieve self-fulfilment; it is simply
that nominated political actions and thus-named recovery
might, in another frame of non-dualistic reference, turn out
to be one in the same.
Narrative approaches suggest such actions would not need
to be grand. Calling on the ideas of Kaethe Weingarten
(1998) that Trumpets neednt blare. The stuff of daily life,
the small and the ordinary, can be fertile ground for the most
sophisticated concept, then perhaps we [are] searching
for the smallest shred of evidence that protest [has] been
present. We [are] searching for an exception to the dominant
plot that featured her as compliant and silent (p. 4, 7).
If modernist thinking tells us the struggle is a personal
and internal one, and feminism tells us it is a political one
(Hanisch, 1969) then perhaps just the very act of wrestling
with these ideas is enough to be considered an embryonic
political statement or inauguration of action.
Of course, great care must be taken not to proselytise or
to burden someone with unwelcome political tasks: There
would, indeed, be ethical concern about counsellors who set
out to politicise the counselling session in a way that was
focussed on general social change without addressing the
particular local experience of the client (Winslade, 2005,
p. 352). However, I had a sense from our conversations that
Ruby might be interested in these ideas, and that we could
address them in ways that focussed on her particular local
experience. Perhaps a carefully-constructed invitation to think
of it this way might be a useful move away from pathologising
notions and individualised interpretations. This is what I
attempt to do in the following abstract from our conversation.
Kristina: So, do young women at school ever take a stand
on this? Do they do anything to stand against or
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disagree with these pressures? [Again, I ask this
with genuine curiosity. Knowledges of this nature
would be worth their weight in gold as part of
co-research.]
Ruby: Probably not. [hesitating momentarily] Well, maybe
they disagree with it, but they dont do much
about it.
Kristina: Do you ever disagree with it?
Ruby: Oh, I think its wrong. Really wrong. [speaking
emphatically]
Kristina: Do you ever do anything about it? Like resist it or
protest against it or anything?
Ruby: Oh, Im not into protests. [looking at me as if I must
be mad for suggesting such a thing]
Kristina: Im sorry, I didnt explain myself very well. I wasnt
thinking about marching with a Love Your Body
banner or anything. Although I know those things
have been done with very good effect. I was just
wondering about much smaller things. Whether not
joining in the conversations was a sort of protest?
You know, not going along with it. Im thinking the
advertisers might love it if you got hooked in as
well, but you seem to be refusing to do that.
Ruby: Yeah, I refuse to join in those conversations.
[Rubys tone is decisive and unequivocal.]
Kristina: Refusing was my word really wasnt it. Does it fit
for you, or is there a better way to describe what
you are doing?
Ruby: Refusing works.
Kristina: So this refusing is it a kind of protest? Do you
consider the refusing that you and I have spoken
of is a kind of protest?
Ruby: [considering my question carefully and taking her
time before answering] Maybe. [She says this
slowly and slightly drawn out, but I sense an air
of curiosity.]
Kristina: So what about your friends? Or young women in
general? What if we thought about young women
across the whole of New Zealand, or even in
other countries, do you think any of them might
be refusing too, and not joining in? [I am moving
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 out very slowly here, step-by-step, focussing on a
gradually expanding panorama. My intention is to
link Ruby to others in similar situations, so once
she has sight of the link between herself and her
friends, I expand the vista to include all young
women in New Zealand, before moving beyond
to other countries in order to expose this as being
very clearly other than merely individualistic, while
not losing sight of how she personally is an integral
part of this bigger picture.]
Ruby: [She contemplates this for a moment.] Probably,
a few I guess. [nodding slightly]
Kristina: I wonder if your refusing would influence them,
if they knew about it.
Ruby: Maybe. [Rubys tone has lifted. Her saying of the
word maybe is inflected and she seems less
cautious.]
Kristina: Are there other ways young women could protest?
[I stick with the word protest for a little while, to
ensure a clear sense of the idea we are engaging
with before we develop a more varied vocabulary
later on.] Other than marching with banners,
unless that is their thing, of course but smaller
things, like refusing to join in conversations.
What could they do if they wanted to disappoint
the advertisers?
Ruby: They could eat whatever they wanted and wear
what they wanted, without wondering what it made
them look like. [Ruby is becoming very engaged
and enthusiastic. She is sitting up in her seat and
becoming more animated. She seems pleased
with her idea.]
Kristina: Wow, thats a thought, isnt it? Eating what you
want and wearing what you want as a protest?
Gosh, what do you think about eating and wearing
what you want being a protest?
Ruby: We should be able to do that anyway.
Kristina: Well, I have to say I agree with you. Do you ever
protest or rebel in that way? Or perhaps other
ways?
Ruby: Sometimes. I get so fed up of not eating that I
just eat what I want. [pausing momentarily while
she thinks] And I dont wear black all the time.
Everyone says you should wear black to look
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thinner, but I dont see why I should. People say to
me, I thought you had bad body image, why are
you wearing tight clothes? I thought you would just
wear baggy clothes. But I like tight pants, I feel
good in them.
Kristina: Were getting a bit of a list here. Would it be alright
do you think to make a list documenting some of
the protests you are making? Would that be a good
idea?
Ruby: Yup. [She seems eager.]
Kristina: Okay, so do you want to write the list? [handing her
a marker-pen and and art pad]
Ruby: Sure.
Kristina: I remember your refusing to join in conversations...
Ruby: Eating what I want not wearing black wearing
tight pants. [She writes each of these in large
letters as she speaks.]
Kristina: Maybe one day, if you chose to share it, this list
could inspire others to follow your lead ?
[We continued to list a number of actions that Ruby
sometimes took as a protest against these pressures. Ruby
later said that she would be happy for the list to be shared
with others who were similarly interested.5]
Kristina: Are you happy with the word protest? Or is
there something else you would consider better?
[It now seems possible to expand this idea beyond
what could be being limited by continued use of
protest and ensure that we are using terminology
that is meaningful to Ruby.] Some people think
of appearance pressures as a gender issue, you
know, like feminism6. They call it a political issue,
some people think of it as cultural thing or a social
pressure. Would you agree?
Ruby: Whats it got to do with Politics? [looking a little
startled, but curious]
Kristina: That would be politics with a small p. Not like
whether you vote National or Labour, but politics
like civil rights and social justice7 do you know
what I mean by that?
Ruby: So this is a political protest? [This does seem to be
piquing her intellectual curiosity.]
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Kristina: Some would say so do you think so?
Ruby: I like that. [Her back straightens a little and her
shoulders moves back slightly, as if perhaps she is
experiencing some pride or a return of dignity as a
consequence of this idea.]
Over the next couple of weeks, Ruby engaged in what
Michael White may have called investigative field work,
researching her own political protests, or political action as
she later came to name it. We devised a plan in which she
documented these actions by taking pictures with her phone8.
Ruby thought there were already enough selfies in the world,
so these pictures were artistic representations of the stands
she was taking in her life that spoke of her actions and her
commitments. Stored on her phone, these pictures acted as
a living document of her daily acts of resistance, the political
actions as she referred to them, that she was taking in her
life. These included photographs of her imperfect dinner
surrounded by a smart table setting as a direct contrast
to those frequently posted on Facebook and Instagram,
outfits she put together and laid out on her bed that she said
would annoy the fashion police and an open book lying on
her unmade bed suggesting a preferred way to spend her
free time to constant exercise. She said these photographs
and this way of thinking helped her feel less like there was
something wrong with her. The last time we met, Ruby spoke
of how bad body image was no longer always getting the
last word, and of how she was a lot more hopeful about
possibilities for getting on with her life.
The four elements
I had not altogether expected this turn of events at the
beginning of our conversations, and so reflected a good
deal on how it had come about. It seemed to distil down to
four elements, all existing practices within the narrative field,
working together. These were,
keeping it small and close
moving between we and I refusing would influence them, if they knew about it?), thus
naming political action
recognising agency.
I wish to discuss each of these briefly in turn as, on reflecting
on our conversations, they were crucial to our work together.
I think they also have much to offer in my other work.
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Keeping it small and close
There is nothing new in small and close conversations.
A fundamental part of narrative practice, experience-near
questioning maintains relevance and connection to personal
experience. Generalisations and abstractions can create
theoretical conversations that bear little relevance to personal
experience and therefore are less likely to resonate or
impact on daily life. My sense was that talking about close,
immediate, and intimate contexts such as school friends,
as well as discerning small actions and micro-practices
embedded in Rubys everyday experience, such as refusing
certain conversations, would more likely draw her in and be
meaningful to her in ways that create change. Winslade,
Crocket and Monk (1997) speak of how experience-near
exchanges help a person redefine experience in ways that
alter its trajectories (p. 69). My question Gosh, what do
you think about eating and wearing what you want being
a protest? which spoke to the minutiae of Rubys daily life
being under political scrutiny elicited both her strong position
(We should be able to do that anyway) and a detailing of
actions (I get so fed up of not eating that I just eat what
I want, and I dont wear black all the time), which, in turn,
led to an ongoing interest in her own resistances an interest
which may have slipped by us had we merely engaged with
broader theorising.
Moving between we and I
By moving between collective and individual experiences
through the use of the language of we and I, it became
more possible for Ruby to envision the connections between
her own personal experience and that of others who shared
similar contexts, and she became able to speak not just for
herself, but for others too. Her concerns therefore became
visible as both individual and collective endeavours. It seems
important that we moved in and out, between we and I,
between the collective or societal and the individual or
personal, reinforcing those connections by keeping the links
between the realms tight (Do you think any of them might
be refusing too, and not joining in? and I wonder if your
making the connections increasingly visible. The we was
chosen carefully and needed to be a we that Ruby identified
with. Had I simply introduced the concept of women in general
as being the we, she may not have seen the relevance to
herself, nor might she have felt able to speak for the diversity
of people under the umbrella of women. We spoke of her
classmates and other school environments, big enough to be
a collective interest, but no so big that sight of herself within
it became lost, gently widening the vista before drawing her
eyes back in to her own actions.
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In some ways this back-and-forth movement and creation of
an experience is resonant of Johnella Birds (2000) work on
relational languaging, in which ideas are acknowledged as
both external to the person and yet of the person, connected
to them but not them, by using language that moves between
the particular and the general, that allows perspective of that
relationship. Perhaps we are doing something similar here.
When the conversation focussed on we, Rubys vision was
turned outward to others who experience life similarly (So do
young women at school ever take a stand on this? Do they do
anything to stand against or disagree with these pressures?),
exposing how these powerful influences permeate the culture
and context in which she resides. And by moving back to
the I (Do you ever disagree with it?, and, I wonder if your
refusing would influence them, if they knew about it?), she
experienced how their lives were linked to hers, how these
broader influences infiltrated her daily circumstances too.
Na ming political action
By naming Rubys decisions to act differently as political
action (So this refusing is it a kind of protest?), we were
moving distinctly away from internalised notions of the
problem. This is not action which is taken through the inward
direction of self-help or self-improvement, or managing ones
genetic predispositions or personality traits, but outwardly
towards an external context. Of course, the word political
may never arise. In a different conversation, it might be called
social action, counter-cultural choice, a decision to do
things differently than is expected of me, being prepared
to have an opinion, or some other term that is of interest to
the particular person we are speaking with. There is scope
for developing and using a rich vocabulary around this, and
we can collect ideas from the people we work with. But by
identifying and naming the political nature of Rubys actions,
we both moved away from the psychology/pathology/
self-help paradigm that often has people stuck, to one of
purposive action in unjust circumstances, while also allowing
for her commitments not to be entirely individualistic, by
broadening the horizon of identity (Denborough, 2008,
p. 187).
Recognising agency
Recognising and naming agency might, in some measure,
be seen as the outcome of the first three elements. It is
through naming of action as political that we are able to
see it for what it is, agentive and meaningful, not passive
or submissive. Agentive practices which stand outside
conformity to social norms often make their first appearance
framed as failure (failure to fit in, failure to measure up) but,
when viewed through the lens of political action, become
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more discernible as personal agency. It is also significant to
point out that our task is a naming of existing actions, not
an inviting of new action, at least not in the first instance.
We were speaking of how Ruby was already acting against
the pressures, even if that action was simply a wrestling
with ideas or wanting something different (Heath, 2012). By
identifying that she was against these pressures and acting
accordingly, while simultaneously bringing into focus how
pervasive the complicity of social institutions is (White, 2011,
p. 89), and revealing the extent of these discourses and their
influence, we were able to bring both her circumstances and
her resistance into focus in a way which strengthened, not
diminished, her. To focus only on what she hadnt noticed
or identified as influential in her life may have depleted her
sense of herself, but because we brought this into focus in
the context of her own resistance, we better maintained and
upheld her position as an agent in her own life, and perhaps
influential in the lives of others.
It is important to note that, while I have described these as
four discrete elements in a linear progression, in practice they
operate more as threads which are being continually pulled
together and woven to create particular experience. I intend to
illustrate this in the following conversation with Natalia.
Natalia
Natalia was 15 and recently discharged from a public mental
health service. After being treated for anorexia nervosa
under a medical model, and achieving her goal weight, she
was referred to me for what were named by the referring
agency as her ongoing body image issues. Our early
conversations using Michael Whites Statement of Position
Maps (White, 2007) provided us with a rich externalised
description of anorexias ongoing influence and its effects
on her life and on those around her, and I had introduced
ideas of anti-anorexia (Maisel, Epston & Borden, 2004) and
the Archive of Resistance.9 Natalia became very interested
in spotting anorexias activities, particularly its hypocrisy in
telling her it was concerned for her health and wellbeing while
insisting that if she was not hospitalised, she had not tried
hard enough; however, she felt convinced that it was her
personality traits that would never allow her to leave anorexia
behind entirely. Medical and psychological discourses
have privileged ideas of personality traits (Moorey, 1991),
distorted cognitions (Treasure & Schmidt, 2013), and genetic
predisposition (Kaye, Wierenga & Bischoff-Grethe, 2013) in
relation to eating disorders. Hospital staff had also spoken to
Natalia of societal influences as barely consequential, or as if
it was somehow Natalias responsibility to manage or ignore
despite her predispositions, making this a very internal,
personal, and isolating experience for her. The following is an
abridged reconstruction of one of our conversations.
www.dulwichcentre.com.au 8
Kristina: You said that anorexia has a louder voice nearer
exams, or when assignments are due. Do you have
any thoughts or ideas about why that might be?
Natalia: Its because I set myself really high standards.
At the hospital, they said its because Im a
perfectionist and that I need to learn not to worry if
I just get merit. But I cant not worry. [She throws
her hands up as if to express the ridiculousness
of a perfectionist being told to not worry. They
certainly have her in a bind with these opposing
ideas.] Im never happy unless I get excellence.
Kristina: Is there something important about getting
excellence?
Natalia: Partly, its because I know you have to get really
high grades to get into medical school, and I want
to be a doctor, so I have to get high marks.
Kristina: Yes, the entry requirements are tough, arent they.
Do you think that puts a lot of pressure on young
people? [Here I am inviting the language of we.]
Natalia: Only if they want to do something like medicine.
There are lots of choices, but Ive chosen medicine.
[Natalia says this decisively but with an air of
resignation.]
Kristina: You said that was partly the reason. Are there
some other parts to this?
Natalia: Well, you have to be good at something. Everyone
else is good at something. I mean really good,
not just average or quite good. They all have a
thing that kind of defines them. [She relays this
philosophy with a conviction that suggests it is
something she has given a good deal of thought,
and on which she has taken a considered position.]
Kristina: Do you mind me asking who you mean by
everyone? [keeping it small and close]
Natalia: All my friends at school. [She is speaking
animatedly, but with a furrowed brow, suggesting
this concerns her greatly and causes her some
distress.] They all have something, either art or
dance, or the way they dress, or whatever. Its a
thing they have that makes them the best at that
special. I havent got anything, so I have to have
excellent grades so I have something too.
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Kristina: It sounds like theres an importance to having
something which defines you and makes you
special.
Natalia: Yes, its important, otherwise you are just
replaceable, you could just not be there one day
and someone would replace you and nobody would
notice. [This reply trips off her tongue with such
ease and certainty that suggests she has thought
about these ideas before.]
Kristina: You mentioned earlier that people have used the
word perfectionist. But this sounds like it might be
a bit different.
Natalia: Well, its just the way I am. [She seems resigned to
her fate.]
Kristina: Only, Im just wondering I hope you dont
mind but Im trying to make sense of this. It
sounds like the word perfectionist would describe
something that you are, something fixed about
your personality.
Natalia: About grades, yes.
Kristina: Do other people feel this pressure to get good
grades and have something special about them
too? [Inviting the language of we, introducing the
idea that she may not be alone in this.]
Natalia: It might be grades, or it might be something else.
If you have a special talent then youre lucky,
you wouldnt need grades so much to define you.
[This seems like quite a thought-through philosophy
she holds.]
Kristina: This idea of the importance of having something
special how do people know about it? [using the
language of we] What do you see around you
[following quickly with the language of I] that is
letting people know having something special that
defines them is important?
Natalia: [She thinks for a moment or two.] School lets you
know.
Kristina: Your school, or all schools? [I am wanting to create
a link between her immediate environment and the
wider context.]
Natalia: Probably all schools [pondering for a moment,
then emphatically] but definitely my school.
www.dulwichcentre.com.au 9
Kristina: How does your school let you know that being
special is important? [keeping it small and
close, wanting to build initially on her very local
experience asking after the micro-practices that
support these ideas]
Natalia: Well, there are the certificates they hand out for
achievement or effort, you know, at assemblies. But
its only for the best ones. The highest achievers,
the most effort. So its like if you dont get the best
marks, or you havent tried harder than everyone
else, you may as well not even be there. Youre
nothing. [She waves her hand in a dismissive
gesture.]
Kristina: Wow! Thats a thought isnt it. Best or nothing.
And the ways that school celebrates success
encourages that idea? Do you think they realise
this?
Natalia: They mean well and I am happy for the people
who get the certificates. [Natalias tone is soft and
generous.]
Kristina: Im sure you are, and I guess schools have the best
intentions. But perhaps you know some things that
they dont. Things about what its like to be in that
environment. [Here I am using the language of I,
bringing forth her individual experience, her insider-
knowledge of the consequences of this system.]
Natalia: It makes you feel invisible, irrelevant.
Kristina: Do you think other people feel like that too? You
know, the students sitting around you in assembly.
Do you think some of them might have that feeling
of being invisible or irrelevant too? [Inviting the
language of we, using the same language of
invisible and irrelevant to link their experience
with hers.]
Natalia: Maybe. [nodding gently with her eyebrows a little
raised as if this is not an unwelcome possibility]
Kristina: But you dont ever talk about it?
Natalia: [mulling over this question for some seconds] No,
because then you would have to admit it and they
might not feel the same. [She meets my eyes and
holds my gaze for a moment before dropping her
head and staring at down her hands, which rest in
her lap.]
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Kristina: [speaking gently] I can see that. So, if other
students in the assembly were feeling the same,
and also not wanting to admit it in case they were
the only one what could they do? Do they just
put up with it? Could they do anything? [using the
language of we and the same language of not
wanting to admit it to expose possible links and
similarities between her experience and that
of others]
Natalia: Tell the school, but then they would be admitting it,
and it wouldnt change anything. [She shrugs.]
Kristina: So if telling the school felt too difficult and it
wouldnt change anything anyway, could they do
something small? Do they have to just go along
with it? [continuing to use the language of we]
Natalia: When they are clapping for the person getting the
certificate, they could decide to clap for everyone
else who tried too.
Kristina: So the clapping would be for everyone who tried
not just for the one who did the best in the
teachers judgement?
Natalia: I think it would be a nicer thing to do, and I would
feel better about it.
Kristina: So you would do it? [Natalia has already moved
from the language of we to I and so I follow her
lead by questioning her about this.]
Natalia: I sort of do it anyway. [She looks at me as if
wanting to check out my reaction.] I think, Im
happy for you getting that certificate, but others
have tried too.
Kristina: So you are already doing it? [highlighting her
agency] You know, some people would call that
taking a stand against something they dont
agree with. Would you call it something like that?
[introducing the element of naming it as political
action]
Natalia: Im not doing what Im expected to do. [her naming
of this action]
Kristina: Not doing what youre expected to do. [I repeat her
words so the not doing is identified as agentive,
not merely an omission. This particular philosophy
that she is both immersed in and yet breaking from
is often invisible, making escape difficult.] What are
you doing?
www.dulwichcentre.com.au 10
Natalia: Im being more caring to everyone. [Natalia states
this with certitude.]
Kristina: Do you do other things youre not expected to
do sometimes, perhaps other ways of being
more caring? [inviting recognition of agency and
engaging with the language of I]
Natalia: I dont talk about grades when we get tests back.
Kristina: Why is that? [It sounds like there is something
important in not talking about grades.]
Natalia: It could be hurtful if someone else is feeling bad, or
I could be upset if everyone else did better.
Kristina: So this is a concern for others and a caring for
yourself?
Natalia: It makes it nicer. [Natalias resolute manner and
definitive tone suggest she is taking a position
on this.]
Kristina: So here you are immersed in this school
environment which celebrates being special
and you are quietly getting on with celebrating
everyone and doing what youre not expected to
do? [keeping it small and close, maintaining the
language of I, claiming her agency and naming
it as political action]
Natalia: Yes. [smiling]
Kristina: Do you think it influences others in any way; might
they do the same?10 [moving outwardly to the
language of we, linking her action and agency with
others experiences]
Natalia: When I act in more caring ways, I think it gives
people more confidence to do the same. I think it
makes it nicer for everyone.
Natalia subsequently became increasingly interested in
catching herself doing things that were not expected of
her. She said a particularly transformative example of this
was reconnecting with the Latin American culture of her
mother, a community she found less competitive, friendlier,
and that had placed greater emphasis on connections than
comparisons which, in turn, supported her in enjoying eating
and being happier in her own body, because those matters
were also thought of differently. Natalia began to realise these
commitments to connection and caring had long influenced
her doing of things that were not expected of her by how she
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interacted with others, in ways she could be proud of. She
observed that she had always invited otherwise-excluded
people into conversations rather than sticking with a clique;
she asked people where they had been if they were absent
from school so they knew their presence or absence was
noticed, with the intention of creating a sense of group
belonging; and she initiated conversation when everyone
else was on their phones in a determined effort to keep the
group more connected. Natalia said that realising she was
not doing what was expected of her supported her in not
doing what anorexia and perfectionism expected of her too.
She still worked hard for good grades, but more to become a
doctor and help people than to be special a profound move
towards her escape from ideas of elitism.
Natalia decided to invite her mother to an impromptu outsider-
witness ceremony (White, 2007), telling of these ways of
being, and acknowledging how she had learned many of
these skills, practices, and commitments from watching her
mothers expressions of connection and caring with her
friends, that seemed to have their roots in a shared cultural
background. I also took the liberty of preparing a Care-
tificate which acknowledged All young people and students,
including Natalia, who share a common delight in recognising
everyones efforts, and are linked by the diverse threads of
an appreciation of caring and connection11. Natalia agreed
that Care-tificates were a much more inclusive way of
appreciating effort.
The effects
I observed what seemed to be four distinct effects in the
conversations with Ruby and Natalia:
Traction: where earlier there had been a sense of stuckness
in our conversations, both Ruby and Natalia became engaged
with ideas and there began to be movement or change.
Reclaiming of dignity: a lessening in the idea that there
was something intrinsically wrong with them, and more that
they saw themselves as being located in difficult or unjust
circumstances.
External critique: a recognition of, and critical engagement
with, their social circumstances, and a growing awareness
of self alongside others responding to unjust circumstances,
rather than accepting internalised notions of a faulty self.
Interest in and enjoyment of the conversation: an active
awareness of an existing participation in their own
resistances, as well as growing interest in taking further
action in their lives and those of others.
www.dulwichcentre.com.au 11
Perhaps there is something about how we moved in and out
between the collective and the personal, the we and the
I, that supported dignity. To be singled out as different or
putting pressure on oneself can be a shaming experience,
a position of deficit, one which is freely offered by modernist
approaches to mental health and wellbeing. The young
women I have spoken with usually come well-resourced with
a host of explanations and descriptions of their personal
deficits and pathologies. I am rarely the first person they have
spoken to about their difficulties; often having engaged with
mental health services, they will list personality traits, genetic
predispositions, and biological brain disorders (Bulik, 2013;
F.E.A.S.T., 2014; Kaye, Bailer, Klabunde & Brown, 2010;
Lock, 2013) among the problems they have (or, one might
argue, are). While I hear that these have been spoken of
kindly in professional circles, and well-intentioned strategies
have been offered to overcome or manage these inherent
ways of being (Lock & Le Grange, 2005), they actually seem
to me to offer little by way of dignity.
Instead, by externalising and introducing ideas of the
collective, we can open space for women to take up a very
different position. Perhaps it was in the keeping it small and
close that we enabled both engagement and enjoyment?
Experience-near descriptions of womens context and
responses ensure these are tangible and therefore easier to
engage with. Nor does the concept of action seem distant
or unachievable. These are local experiences against which
small stands become eminently possible.
Further, naming actions as political with Natalia invited an
external critique, as opposed to an internal critique. The latter
would have had her vision turning inwards, seeking changes
she should make to herself or of her ways of being in the
world. But here her vision was directed outwards towards
considering what was operating in her environment and on
her, the institutions she engaged with, and societal practices
which supported limited and limiting ideas of a successful
personhood, shrinking the space which she may inhabit.
Perhaps the careful scaffolding (White, 2007) also created
this sense of traction, allowing Natalia to see herself in a
different light in a wider context, with the identifying and
naming of agency highlighting what she was already doing,
and making change seem more possible. Perhaps, too, it was
the small, close questioning and the ability to engage in ways
which dignified, not depleted; but there is no doubt in my mind
that the nature of our conversations changed dramatically
once these four elements were being employed.
This might, however, seem a rather simplistic breakdown
of element and effect, and maybe there is something a little
more going on. This is a delicate approach to addressing
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the politics of experience, an invitation to include collective
considerations in discussions about individual experience
and perhaps the elements, in being pulled together and
interwoven, create something stronger and more complex.
Perhaps the key is in the continuous interweaving of all four
elements, their interplay creating the effects the gentle
back-and-forth between we and I, the close attention to
the details of local context, the naming of action as political,
and the recognising of her agentive engagement both in her
life, and that of others. Each element acts as warp and weft,
in and out, crossing one another, supporting and reinforcing
each other, gradually weaving a rich counter-story that has
resonance and validity one that both strengthens and
dignifies, one which moves beyond the stymying nature of
pathological descriptions of personal problems, or neoliberal
definitions of personal growth and individual responsibility
(Sugarman, 2015; Verhaeghe, 2014), and into the dignified
realms of collective experience, collective responsibility, and
the potential for social movement.
Ethics/power/privilege
When I met Ruby, she had no interest in counselling. Age,
education, and professional status afford me considerable
privilege, and the young women I work with are often very
skilled in meeting the expectations that others place on them.
Consequently, I hold a level of power that needs attending
to lest I unintentionally impose counselling conversations
on people who do not wish them, and which privilege my
voice over theirs. So I spoke directly to this power imbalance
between Ruby and I to make it more visible, pointing out that
sometimes when young people come to see me, it can seem
that because I am old enough to be their parent or teacher,
and because I have the title of counsellor, it means they
are obliged to answer my questions. I explained that I would
not want to engage anyone in an unwelcome conversation,
nor would I be at all offended if she chose to spend the time
in some other way, offering a number of alternative options
such as an art activity, or simply hooking her phone into the
available free wifi until her mum came for her. Ruby decided it
would be okay for us to chat, choosing the option of getting to
know one another, and that is how we spent our first meeting.
During that conversation, I asked if it can seem that
counsellors have all the answers, the right solutions or
special knowledges about how to live, and Ruby agreed it did.
However, she also said it made sense when I explained that
I actually believe people are best placed to know what is right
in their own lives, but that I can bring some knowledges and
understandings that might be helpful (Tarragona, 2012) as
part of a collaborative effort. It was in part drawing attention to
her insider-knowledges and my secondhand understandings
www.dulwichcentre.com.au 12
of her world that I asked, Its a long time since I was at
school do you think I would notice a difference if I was to
return to school now?, inviting her into her position as the
more knowledgeable of the two of us about how do young
women cope, growing up with that around them? These were
questions asked from a stance of genuine curiosity Morgan
(2000), to which I did not have an answer, but hoped she may.
I am also aware that questions are influential, informed in
particular ways. We need to monitor and expose our influence
in order to work in transparent and responsible ways.
Kitzinger & Perkins (1993) say, We need to be careful about
allowing psychological thinking to obscure the causes of our
problems, and the full range of different solutions to them
(p.10) and, given the relentless, invisible, and unregulated
way in which modernist psychological ideas spread through
the operations of power and privilege in institutions, through
media, and socially-sanctioned ways of being I do not
want to operate in similarly subversive ways. I believe my
offering of alternative perspectives for consideration is not
only ethical practice, and that to not offer these considerations
would be unethical indeed, but to do so ethically there must
be a transparency of values on my part (Lobovits, Maisel
& Freeman, 1995, p. 235). So, I tell clients I have some
thoughts and ideas about problems, as I did with Ruby when
I initially invited ideas that she may experience pressures to
look a certain way. I wanted to check to see if these ideas
fitted for her, and said so. Perhaps it was because I also
explained that I by no means hold a monopoly on ideas, and
different practitioners, like different people, are informed by
a wide variety of philosophies and world-views, that she felt
able to let me know that she held another position on the
problem, viewing bad body image as intrinsic to her.
It was also important to ensure as I proceeded that I was not
unwittingly engaging in subtle coercion, or recruiting Ruby
and Natalia into a position in line with my own ideas. To allow
for this possibility, it was important that our conversations
brought forward values and positions they already held.
And, by speaking of existing actions, rather than inviting
new ones and interjecting my questioning with what do
you think?, do you agree?, is that how it is for you, or is it
something different?, and are you already doing this? that
I conscientiously took a de-centred position, without entirely
relinquishing influence. I offered possibilities and listened
carefully for Ruby and Natalia to speak of alternatives,
focussing on holding their beliefs and values central.
This particular work has been greatly influenced by Kitzinger
& Perkinss (1993) claim that the very idea of therapy is
wrong and that it is in and of itself a fundamentally unethical
enterprise (p. 104) because it privatises pain and severs
connections between us (p. 86). While their writing was
THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF NARRATIVE THERAPY AND COMMUNITY WORK | 2016 | No.2
in relation to lesbians engaging with psychological and
psychotherapeutic practices available more than twenty years
ago, we must still consider these significant concerns if we
are to engage in ways which do not serve to pathologise,
isolate, or harm our clients. Freedman & Combs (1996)
argue that the unique character of [narrative] therapeutic
relationships has to do with the ethical practices that shape
their construction (p. 265) and, as such, the very practices
of externalising problems, linking people around similar
concerns, and identifying unique outcomes and absent but
implicit commitments, refute these internalised pathologies
which can render a person stuck.
It is these concerns about internalising and individualising
problems that I attempted to address in this work through
my use of specific practices, including joining people in
their experience of the world (Freedman & Combs, 1996, p.
277). While creating ill-thought-through connections between
those experiencing eating concerns is documented as having
hazardous potential (Lavis, 2011; Osgood, 2013) by evoking
hypothetical audience (Lobovitz, Maisel & Freeman, 1995,
p. 229), I was able to link Ruby and Natalias experiences to
school friends and other young women. I also invited them
to share their ideas and knowledges about problems and
protests, partly to help me understand more of their world so
that I might become better at assisting others (I was careful
to inform them of this project), while also attending to the
indisputable fact that their knowledges and ideas could act as
a direct and invaluable contribution to the lives of others.
With regard to race, culture, and socioeconomic status, there
is rarely an imbalance in the room when I am working with
young women in the realms of eating concerns. Engagement
with competitive educational environments, cultural
commitments, and expectations placed upon us have often
been very similar. However, shared values and beliefs can
have their effects invisibilised, allowing an acceptance of the
status quo. Mary Heath (2012) argues, I believe it is possible
to reflect upon ones own cultural location but it is not possible
to speak from outside it (p. 18), and so ethical engagement
for me involves self-knowledge through reflection, discussions
with others in the field (both narratively informed and not), and
ensuring I am well-read, both from narrative and non-narrative
perspectives, to gain a sense of what others working in these
realms are noticing, while bearing in mind that many who
have reached a position of professionalism have also been
committed to ideas of individualism, achievement, and the
predictable practices embedded in educational institutions.
Freedman and Combs (1996) describe how White and
Epston place emphasis on effects of practices so that what
therapists do is not evaluated by how well their actions follow
rules but by the actual effects of those actions on peoples
www.dulwichcentre.com.au 13
lives (Freedman & Combs, 1996, p. 269). So I asked Ruby
and Natalia what was more or less useful, in the belief
that client-informed feedback is both beneficial and ethical
practice (Duncan, 2014). This is how I discovered that they
experienced our conversations in ways that had them thinking
less that there was something wrong with them, and more
focused on their own responses to unjust circumstances
which impacted on others as well as them, and that this
was helpful in countering the problems that tried to disrupt
their lives.
Notes
1.
With appreciation for all the women who have generously shared
their stories and made this project possible. While not specifically
documented in this paper, conversations with Rosalind and others
contributed significantly to this project.
2.
 ere I refer to the particular women I worked with in this context.
H In so doing, she becomes conscious of her participation in the
It is important to note that there are many people experiencing
similar difficulties who would not identify with this description.
3.
This was how Ruby named these concerns.
4.
I am referring to Hamilton, Mintz, & Kashubeck-West (2007).
5.

Thoughts of sharing Rubys list with others who are similarly
affected by these concerns came from ideas of Enabling
contribution (Denborough, 2008, p. 3) and the restorative
possibilities which come when suffering is recognised as having
not been for nothing (Myerhoff, 1982, as cited in Denborough,
2008, p. 3).
6.
This question was informed by the idea that not addressing
issues of gender within the problem (of anorexia) would, as
David Epston is prone to state act to co-produce the problem.
(Madigan, 1996, paragraph 35).
7.
I chose these examples (and feminism above) because they are
included in the New Zealand high school curriculum and I believed
Ruby was likely to have some knowledge of them, but also as
part of introducing familiar concepts where peoples individual
experiences of daily life have been visibly impacted by political
agenda, eras, and social movements, and where individual
contributions have made considerable differences to the lives of
others and created historical change.
References
Bird, J. (2000). The hearts narrative: Therapy and navigating lifes
contradictions. Auckland, New Zealand: Edge Press.
Bulik, C. (2013). Midlife eating disorders: Your journey to recovery.
New York, NY: Walker & Co.
Denborough, D. (2008). Collective narrative practice: Responding
to individuals, groups, and communities who have experienced
trauma. Adelaide, Australia: Dulwich Centre Publications.
Duker, M., & Slade, R. (1988). Anorexia nervosa and bulimia: How to
help. Milton Keynes, UK: Open University Press.
THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF NARRATIVE THERAPY AND COMMUNITY WORK | 2016 | No.2
Looking back
In this paper, I hope to have shown that by enabling women
to identify and speak of themselves as part of a wider social
group impacted by appearance-based and/or academic
pressures which invite ideas of comparison or measuring
up, they became able to engage in an external critique of
societal and institutional expectations, rather than turning to
an internal critique, or to ideas of needing self-improvement.
And that it was through the naming of their commitments
and actions as being something beyond just themselves that
notions of individual disorder were replaced by thoughts of
political action in support of change.
8.
This practice was informed by White & Epston (1990): There
are also those documents that are significantly authored by the
person who is their subject. In these documents, the subject plays
a central role in contributing to the specification of her own self.
constitution of her own life. This can lead to a profound sense
of personal responsibility, as well as a sense of possessing the
capacity to intervene in the shaping of ones life and relationships
(p. 191).
9.
The Archive of Resistance is a valuable and ever-growing anti-
anorexia/anti-bulimia resource comprising of personal stories,
scholarship, essays, poetry, and conversations, contributed to
widely and maintained by David Epston and others. It is freely
available at www.narrativeapproaches.com
10.
My drawing of Natalias attention to the potential for her actions
and commitments influencing others in this way was informed
by ideas of narrative practices contributing to social movement
(Denborough, 2008, p. 178) and how, without imposing agendas,
we can support an increased sense of agency that enables
creative possibilities for both contribution and change.
11.
This was inspired by White & Epstons (1990) use of alternative
documents as a counter to rituals of exclusion (p. 190), such as
the school award ceremonies of which Natalia spoke.
Duncan, B. L. (2014). On becoming a better therapist: Evidence-
based practice one client at a time. Washington, DC: American
Psychological Association.
F.E.A.S.T. (Families Empowered and Supporting Treatment of Eating
Disorders.) (2014). Causes of eating disorders. Retrieved from
http://www.feast-ed.org/?page=Causes
Freedman, J., & Combs, G. (1996). Relationships and ethics.
In J. Freedman & G. Combs, Narrative therapy: The social
construction of preferred realities (pp. 264288). New York, NY:
W. W. Norton.
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Gremillion, H. (2003). Feeding anorexia: Gender and power at a
treatment center. Durham, NC: Duke University Press.
Hamilton, E., Mintz, L. B., & Kashubeck-West, S. K. (2007).
Predictors of media effects on body dissatisfaction in European
American women. Sex Roles: A journal of research, 56,
397402. doi:10.1007/s11199-006-9178-9
Hanisch, C. (1969). The personal is political. Retrieved from http://
www.carolhanisch.org/CHwritings/PIP.html
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