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Q. Do you have any information at all about Lamar Wilson being a gang
member?
A. None.
Q. Are you aware of any fact with like some kind of evidence we can grab
onto, a record, anything like that, that tells us that he is a gang member?
A. No.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
member?
A. Any personal knowledge? I've not dealt with him before, no.
Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge that he's a gang member, from other
people even?
A. I mean, since this there's -- I know there's been people looking into
whether -- his involvement and what -- the ABK gang group, his involvement. I didn't
Q. Same thing?
Q. Okay. What facts do you have, or what information are you aware of
A. I've seen photographs with Lamar Wilson in them with other individuals
who are displaying what appear to be gang signs. You know, in some of these
photographs are also firearms and what appear to be marijuana joints. Oftentimes
Wilson and the other individuals are dressed in similar colors. Oftentimes there's
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reference to ABK, or Any Body Killa, as a name or title for this group. In general, I am
Q. Well, that's what I'm getting at, though. I know we can reach that
conclusion, but what gets you there? That's what I'm looking for.
A. I think his association with other individuals that are also identified as
ABK is a large part of it. I think that if you look at everyone that -- the individuals that
came in to talk to us, at least the males in particular, that all or nearly all of them could
Q. Okay. Well, when you say that -- associated with other individuals that
them rapping about ABK, talking about ABK, text -- or Facebook posts with that in
there --
Q. Okay.
music, wouldn't all those things feed into that as well as promotion?
A. I suppose that they could both exist at the same time; people through a
rap production group and a highbred street gang at the same time.
A. It's possible.
Q. Does the Iowa City Police Department have what -- I don't know whether
to call it a gang unit or a group of officers that are focused on gang-related problems?
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A. I wouldn't characterize this group like that, but the street crimes action
team, I think, by even formal declaration by the police department is charged with
A. I believe in the -- like in the annual report you'll read about what SCAT
in there I think it talks about gang activity and suppression and things like that.
A. To -- A structure to what?
information on a person, and then you take that information out, and you look at it piece
by piece, what are you looking for to determine that someone is a gang member, like
operating guideline or a policy on gangs, I believe, that would detail that. I'm not familiar
with it.
information that they decide, this leads me to believe that this person is involved in a
criminal street gang, do they then -- is there a database, or is there some kind of place
where they record that information and say, I've identified this person as a gang
member?
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A. There are databases out there that probably do things like that. I'm not
aware of any database that anyone at the Iowa City Police Department uses to do stuff
like that.
Q. Okay.
Q. Okay.
A. It usually is in the form of an e-mail that says, hey, this person has been
known to have a gun, or we have information this person has a stolen gun, whatever it
may be, and then he's also allegedly a member of whatever group.
Q. Okay. And that's what I'm getting at, though. What triggers that? What
A. I think -- I'm sure there are several factors, and I'm not the best one to
Q. Okay.
posting photographs of them with others displaying gang signs with a caption, ABK, it's
pretty clear that there's something go on there. If it's something different, a different
gang, but they're identifying as a member of that gang, then that's -- I think that's
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Q. Okay. Are you aware of any specific piece of information that locks
down Lamar Wilson as a gang member that's in the possession of your department?
A. I know that we at least have one or two photographs that were taken
I think the day before the shooting that depict Lamar with several other individuals near
1102 Hollywood that show individuals holding guns and pointing guns at the camera
and other -- with individuals that we know to be associated with ABK. I'm sure there are
other things that we have in our possession. I'm just not aware of them, at least it's
Q. Okay. Is that enough to get him labeled a gang member; pictures of him
with other people that you think are gang members and a gun?
A. I don't know.
A. Not to my knowledge.
department?
A. No one individual I'm aware of. Like I said, for SCAT, if there is a
that are -- that know a lot more about gangs than others, but --
Q. It's kind of a hard expertise to have, isn't it, like what are you studying,
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where they live, where they hang out with, that sort of thing goes towards being
knowledgeable on the subject, but, yeah, it's a tough subject to formalize, I guess.
Q. Those are all conclusions that can be drawn from a variety of things,
though, right?
A. Correct.
Q. How I interpret the picture, what I think this sign is in the picture as
A. Right.
A. The study of gangs is not an exact science, I would agree with that.
Q. Are you aware of any fact that leads you believe that Lamar Wilson is a
gang member?
Q. Are you aware of any fact that leads you to believe that Lamar Wilson is
a gang member?
A. Fact, no. Just speculation and talk amongst the police department and
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Q. Okay. Do you have any fact that you're aware of that is determinative of
A. No.
(Intelligence memo)
A. Yes.
Q. And it's fluid? Like it doesn't get any more fluid than that, does it?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Did you know what he looked like or who he was before any of
this?
A. Yes.
Q. That day?
A. There was a photo from a social media site where Lamar Wilson was
holding a firearm.
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A. I believe there was an e-mail sent a few months back saying that Lamar
was -- just took a class, and he posted something on social media about being legal.
Q. Okay. Prior to that had you had any indication of who Lamar was or who
(Gang member)
Q. Are you aware of any fact that supports the assertion that Lamar Wilson
is a gang member?
Q. Are you aware of any fact that supports the assertion that Lamar Wilson
is a gang member?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. It was sent out throughout the police department -- to the entire police
department.
Q. Is that the one memo you were talking about that came out earlier that
day?
A. Yes.
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Q. Okay. Other than that, are you aware of any fact that identifies
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did that intelligence memo indicate that he was a gang member?
Q. Okay. And specifically it told you that he had gone and got a weapons
permit?
A. Not that e-mail. There was an e-mail prior providing us with information
related to that.
prior to this date, or why are you guys collecting data and sharing it about him?
A. I don't know. I wasn't the one who collected it. It was -- like I said, it was
A. I'm not exactly sure what they do. I just know that we receive various
Q. Okay. Did that intelligence memoranda identify any crime that Wilson
of justification?
A. Yes.
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Q. Okay. Do you have any information, any fact, that supports the assertion
A. No.
Q. Okay. Do you have any information that leads you to believe that
Q. Okay.
A. Anything specific that would pertain to that, I'm not aware of it.
Q. Okay. Something I've been asking everybody is do you have any facts
A. Facts?
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Q. Facts.
you know, we know that he's associated with a certain group of people, and through
Facebook they do a lot of hashtag ABK, which stands for Any Body Killa.
Q. Okay.
A. They also do a lot of hashtag gang gang. They use a lot of hand signals.
Q. Okay. And they're also kind of a rap group with kind of a gang theme,
right?
A. Dimione Walker?
Q. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Does he make records and stuff, though, like does he actually
sell?
Q. Okay.
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Okay. Was he --
Q. Okay.
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he was actually -- And I don't know if he was making money, but was he selling?
Q. Okay. And they've actually -- If you do look at the social media, they've
got quite a few things on social media, raps and videos and songs and stuff like that.
A. Yes.
Q. -- looked at that?
Q. Okay. So in terms of evidence that he's a gang member, it's the ABK
A. And I guess not just hashtag, but in videos and stuff that that will be said
as well.
Q. Okay. Are these music videos or just like a social media video?
A. Both.
rap-artist types to actually kind of take on that gang persona? That helps them sell,
doesn't it?
Q. Okay. Any other facts that make you think he's in a gang?
A. Well, the -- obviously the people that he's known to associate himself
with, they participate -- they are known to commit numerous criminal acts, and
typically -- or I guess not typically, but my experiences are that they're usually together
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familiar with. I would say that would be on the low end as well.
Q. Okay. And is it your testimony you think that that -- ABK is a criminal
A. Not necessarily. I know that they commit criminal acts together and
around each other, which, you know, a criminal gang in the Iowa Code is kind of defined
as a group of people, you know, that commit criminal acts together and that have a
known name or associate themselves with a known name, for instance, ABK.
Q. Okay.
Q. Who's making the determination that these guys are associating with
each other, and kind of define associating together for me. What's that --
Q. Okay. But what's that take? What's it take to say they're associating
together and -- I'm trying to figure out what the dynamic is.
A. No. I mean, definitely not having a cup of coffee together. They are a
known group of people. They are always -- And by "known group," they are always
Q. Okay.
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Q. Who are they known to, though? Like who's saying ABK is a street
A. No. I would say, including our police department, our community and the
Q. Okay.
A. I mean, it's not just -- If it's known to us, it's known to other people as
well.
Q. Yeah, but I think labels get put on people and groups maybe, and what
I'm getting at is who decides that this label goes with this person or this label goes with
this group?
Q. Okay.
A. -- which then, obviously when you associate yourselves with criminal act,
Q. I'm trying to think of a way to make this -- kind of drill it down better. It's
the association that is a stumbling block for me. Like I don't know what it takes to call it
an association. The police get involved in criminal acts and in investigating it, but that
doesn't mean they're associated with it. Do you see what I'm saying?
So is there a rubric or a paradigm that you can plug certain conduct into and say, this
Q. Okay.
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Q. Okay. And if one person in this dozen commits a crime, does that make
Q. Okay.
A. It all depends.
Q. Because the Code does say they have to commit criminal acts together,
so if one or two of that dozen commit a criminal act, does that import
A. Potentially.
Q. Okay. Who in the Iowa City Police Department then decides that we're
A. Nobody specifically.
Q. Okay. And is there any definition that says, we're only going to call
people gang members if they meet this criteria? Is there any criteria like that?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
sent out in the Iowa City Police Department regarding Lamar Wilson?
Q. I'll change that to the 26th, I think it was, too. It was like before the
shooting, the day of, so -- I think the shooting was like at 1:30 in the morning. So like on
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the 26th do you know if there was an intelligence -- some kind of an intelligence memo
Q. Does the Iowa City Police Department collect intelligence data, just as a
normal course, even though there might not be a crime that they're investigating
specifically?
Q. Okay.
Q. Okay. At one point, and this was a couple years ago, and I can't even
remember who the detective was, but they were -- they had like a separate file in the
Detective Bureau that even the custodian of records for the police department couldn't
A. I have no idea.
REDIRECT-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BRUZEK:
Q. Who says all these people are ABK? Like you said it as fact. Who
says -- Where can I go and look and say, I want to see a list of people in ABK, and who
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
Q. Okay. But who decided the list? I mean, you just testified as fact that
Q. Tell me how you know that, and what can I look at to say, these are
Q. Uh-huh.
A. I don't even have -- You know, they make it easy for me.
Q. Just a second.
A. All right.
Q. You decided ABK is a street gang. How do you know that their
references to ABK aren't to their music group? I mean, you're just -- You're making
A. And I think we've kind of covered this before, but, you know, I did not
coin ABK as a street gang. Okay? The people we just mentioned did, okay, based on
their -- the subpoenas that we've done with Facebook and every video and message
and picture that they post, all the criminal acts that these people that we just mentioned
do and do together, okay, so that in itself -- you know, as the State of Iowa clearly
defines what a street -- criminal street gang is, that in itself defines those members as a
street gang.
Q. Okay. But you guys decided ABK's a street gang, and you guys decided
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
A. I mean, that's just -- that's kind of going against what I just said.
Q. Okay. But it's the conclusion you're drawing from that information, right?
Q. Well, you're fitting those facts in and saying, these apply, but that's never
actually been fleshed out, right? You're taking a set of facts, you're deciding that they're
true, and then you're applying it in order to give these guys a label. Isn't that really
Q. Okay. And you think on each one of these people you can set out
sufficient facts of crimes and association that will convince a judge that they are gang
members?
A. Without a doubt.
Q. Without a doubt?
A. Yes.
Q. I want any intelligence data that your department has. Do you keep
A. Not to my knowledge.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
Q. Okay.
Q. Okay. You understand what I'm asking about when I'm saying
intelligence data?
specific individuals that maybe you can't verify or you don't know or it might be rumor,
A. No.
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Okay. Do you guys have files on any of these people that are not related
A. Not to my knowledge.
it? Is there another name for it in your agency, and I'm just not getting the vernacular
right?
A. Well, we deal with criminal histories and the history of dealing with
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system we have all the times that we deal with people for any and all reasons, so we
have --
Q. It's in a database?
MS. ZIMMERMANN: No, it -- well -- I'm sorry. Can we go off the record
for a second.
need to call him back, but there's some information that I want to check out, and then
Q. Okay. Do you know of any fact or have any evidence that supports the
A. No.
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Q. Sure. Do you have any fact or any evidence that Lamar Wilson is a
A. Not personally.
Q. Okay. Does the Iowa City Police Department maintain any kind of
A. Not that I'm aware of. We just have our general recordkeeping system,
which includes persons, but I'm not aware of any intelligence files in a specific place or
location.
Q. Okay. On August 26th did you receive or are you aware of any kind of
A. No.
Q. Okay.
Q. Okay. I don't know how you guys' shifts work. When you guys come on,
A. For patrol?
A. Yes.
Q. Do they exchange that kind of information, what's going on, that kind of
A. Yes, they have a file that has information that they talk about during
those briefings.
Q. Okay. And that doesn't have to be just crimes that have occurred; it can
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A. It might be.
Q. Do you have any fact that supports Lamar Wilson being a gang
member?
A. Yes.
A. Social media. I've known those guys -- most of those guys since
Q. Okay.
A. The pictures and, yeah, all the posts that they make.
A. Yes.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
Q. And there's a persona that rappers take on, right, this gang member
persona?
not -- but those other people that are, I guess, affiliated with ABK, have they been in his
music videos?
A. Yes.
Q. And Delmargo -- King Dough -- he's actually had some success, hasn't
he?
talks --
Q. Okay.
Q. Okay. But is he opening for major acts in like Miami and Minneapolis
A. I believe so.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't know.
Q. I guess put it this way, it's more of a real deal than the guy standing on
the corner?
A. He's trying --
Q. Okay.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
Q. Okay. Who do you think the best rapper is out of all these guys?
Q. You don't think so, because he's in the lead right now with you guys?
A. Really?
Q. Yeah.
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay.
A. He doesn't count?
Q. Okay. SCO?
A. Yeah.
Q. See, now, Mercer was just the opposite. I asked him that flat out, who's
A. It's SCO.
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
Delmargo --
A. Dimione --
A. Dimione -- Yeah.
Q. Okay.
A. I mean, he's always with those guys. I mean, they're all -- He's definitely
A. No.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
Q. Okay. What's your approach after these guys come around the corner
and Linn, which is right where Formosa is or the Iowa City library.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. During that time Officer Graves said that the suspects were running
towards the library, so as I was approaching, I approached the intersection, got out of
my patrol car and started to evaluate the situation, at which point I recognized a group
of males that were running out, at which point I ordered them to stop.
A. A combination, yes --
Q. Okay.
or something of that sort, but then I had also seen that group probably about an hour
and a half earlier crossing the intersection of Washington and Dubuque Street.
Q. Okay. And you said that was like an intelligence memo or something --
A. Yes.
Q. -- earlier?
A. Yes.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
A. It's put out by our street crimes unit every now and then. It's become
more of a frequent thing. I think with the new chief, he's kind of urging to make sure that
(Gang member)
Q. Are you aware of any fact or evidence that Lamar Wilson is a gang
member?
A. I believe some of the intel, he's been seen associating with a gang called
ABK.
A. No, other than I've seen numerous photos with him holding a firearm.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you know?
A. That's my understanding.
A. Yes.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
Q. Okay. Are you aware of any fact that Lamar Wilson is a gang member or
Q. Okay. Do you have any fact that supports Lamar Wilson being a gang
member?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. Do you have any fact, something that's fact that you know of, that
Q. And do you have any information, a fact, some piece of evidence that
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
LEFT OPEN)
Q. Okay. Who is going to be the point person for the gang participation
charge? Like who's looking into the gang participation, because I haven't found a
Q. Uh-huh.
Q. Uh-huh.
were turned over to the prosecutor's office to take a look at that, that information.
Q. Okay.
Q. Yeah. Well, they told me Detective Wood isn't going to be called now
A. Okay.
Q. -- because that's who I thought was the point person on that stuff --
A. Okay.
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
A. Okay.
Q. Okay. What fact, what information do you have that Lamar Wilson is a
gang member?
A. What decision?
A. Well, I think the State of Iowa, under the Code, would make that
decision --
Q. Okay.
A. -- if you're looking for a -- you know, a statute saying this is what it takes
A. Okay.
Q. -- but who's the person who fits that rubric? Like who's the person who
says, Lamar Wilson did this, so he's a gang member? Like the statute doesn't have a
conscious; it can't like declare someone a gang member. It takes a person to evaluate
Q. Okay. As a group?
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E-FILED 2017 DEC 28 8:36 PM JOHNSON - CLERK OF DISTRICT COURT
Q. Does the Iowa City Police Department maintain any kind of intelligence
records on individuals?
A. No.
Q. As far as --
Q. Okay.
A. So it's not like I keep an intel folder, but I know the law allows it, so
I'm not going to say everybody -- I know what everybody else is doing in that
department.
A. We don't have --
Q. -- a couple of the patrolmen talk about getting intel from the -- Is it the
A. Yes.
Q. And then when I get like Murphy or those guys in here, they deny that
there is such a thing. But my understanding is there was an intel memo that went out
on the 26th about Lamar Wilson, and I haven't seen that. Do you know anything about
that?
A. I don't -- I don't know anything about the 26th. I can't testify to seeing
Q. Okay.
A. What I can do -- What I can say is that once I became involved in this
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ABK and members of ABK and who had weapons when they were stopped, and that's
Q. Okay.
to be a gang member?
Q. Okay.
A. I don't believe so. I don't recall that. I think it just talks about who we
Q. Okay. I believe what prompted that was that he had gone and got a
concealed weapons permit. Does the Johnson County sheriff normally send you some
kind of information about who's come and applied and received a concealed weapons
permit?
A. No.
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