Georgia Wowk

Student ID: 170006814

In the light of Nietzsche’s critique of Socrates (in Twilight of the Idols, “The

Problem of Socrates” §1-12) construct an imaginary defence which Socrates

himself would hold in the form of a dialogue between him, Nietzsche and Plato,

where Plato is called upon as Socrates’s primary witness. It is important to

distinguish between Socrates and Plato in order to put forward a defence

against Nietzsche’s precepts.

In the following dialogue, I attempt to create a realistic conversation between

Nietzsche, Socrates and Plato – if they were ever to meet. I aim to use Nietzsche’s

‘The Problem of Socrates’, and the main criticisms of the philosopher that arise from

this text, to hold a debate between the three. From my reading, I decided Nietzsche’s

two main criticisms were of Socrates’ use of dialectics (the Socratic method) and his

idea that ‘reason = virtue = happiness’. I wrote Socrates and Plato’s responses, as

per how Plato’s dialogues represent Socrates’ ideas – using them as counterpoints

to Nietzsche. However, I also used some of Plato’s works to represent his own

views; to show his personal philosophical assessments. As further research, I used

academic journal articles to deepen my understanding. The resulting dialogue, I

believe, is one that accurately portrays how the Greek philosophers may respond to

Nietzschean criticism.

NIETZSCHE: Socrates, do you still uphold your belief that ‘reason equals virtue

equals happiness’ (The Twilight of the Idols, p.14)?

SOCRATES: I have no doubt that this is the case.

Georgia Wowk
Student ID: 170006814

NIETZSCHE: Why is such faith put in virtue if you believe so little in life?

SOCRATES: Virtue is a kind of knowledge (Five Dialogues, Meno, p.79). I assure

you that gaining knowledge in this life will help your soul in the next.

NIETZSCHE: You speak so much of soul, Socrates. What is the soul? If we cannot

understand it, as we cannot see any afterlife, how can we let it hold so much power

over us while we are living?

SOCRATES: I did not believe you were one to put such value on life or death.

NIETZSCHE: ‘The value of life cannot be assessed’ (The Twilight of the Idols, p.13).

I believe not in life-affirmation or life-denial – both are wasted ventures. In any case,

my question is simpler: why put so much emphasis on virtue as a passage to

something better, when all you can be sure of is where you are now?

PLATO: Virtues are needed. To reach our potential as human beings, we need to

attain such excellences as wisdom, courage, moderation and justice (Republic,

p.94). It is not simply an act of forgetting we are alive; merely that death is not the

end of life. If we discuss further, I am sure our minds will meet on the matter.

NIETZSCHE: But I am not interested in dialectics. It is childish to claim one opinion

may be more right than another. One will only bully to ensure the other is discredited.
Georgia Wowk
Student ID: 170006814
However ill-conceived his ideas, the man who can put on the best show wins (The

Twilight of the Idols, p. 14).

SOCRATES: Yet you would sit here and argue with me?

NIETZSCHE: I am just trying to understand your theories.

SOCRATES: And what of yours? What of your ideas about happiness?

PLATO: I return, if I may, to my original point. Without our key virtues, how can we

be happy?

NIETZSCHE: Happiness is not a reward for morality. It is how we help ourselves. It

is an instinct of humanity – ‘happiness is the same as instinct’ (The Twilight of the

Idols, p.17). You talk as though we are indebted to a higher power. Why?

SOCRATES: Our Gods are not ones we should aspire to be like. There must be

someone else, something else, that is moral and just and good (McPherran, p.245).

NIETZSCHE: Is it not us humans who decide such things? Surely, as a society, we

say what is to be accepted and what is not.

PLATO: It is our virtues, and our recognition of them, that tell us what is right and

wrong.
Georgia Wowk
Student ID: 170006814
SOCRATES: If we teach virtue as we pass on knowledge, and live a more examined

life, (Five Dialogues, Apology, p. 41) we can all experience the good life. This is

about the maintenance of state. There is no justification for the destruction of the

state by individuals. ‘Is life worth living for us when that is ruined?’ (Five Dialogues,

Crito, p.50)

NIETZSCHE: Then what is the good life for you?

PLATO: Socrates believes in curbing our own stubbornness; our own desires and
excesses. ‘Good fortune is something largely within the control of the wise person’
(Jones, p.9).

NIETZSCHE: You seem to do a lot to appease something that may not exist. You

perpetuate the idea that life has meaning only to bring us something after it is over;

putting all faith in the soul instead.

SOCRATES: I have no doubt that the soul exists.

NIETZSCHE: And what of you, Plato?

PLATO: Yes, there is a soul. We just cannot comprehend it in this world.

SOCRATES: You know my position on virtue, what other charges to do you lay at

my feet?

NIETZSCHE: What I said earlier, about dialectics. I want to return to that.

Georgia Wowk
Student ID: 170006814

SOCRATES: You find debate frivolous?

NIETZSCHE: It is not debate that I take issue with. What is problematic for me is that

the Socratic method allows any number of unrefined ideas to become accepted. It is

not necessarily the best thinkers, but the ones who can command popularity, whose

ideas develop into widespread belief. As well we know, reputation alone cannot be

an indicator of a person’s true talent for philosophy. ‘A noble taste is thereby

defeated’ (The Twilight of the Idols, p.14).

SOCRATES: Have you an example?

NIETZSCHE: Perhaps you. You, and I mean no offence, are of a lower class

amongst the Athenians. Yet, despite this, you have commanded such an almighty

respect. You have used what others would find a barrier to forge an identity for

yourself. If everyone blindly agrees with your theories because of your reputation,

then that is an obstruction to new, better philosophical theories.

PLATO: I take it you have read the dialogues?

NIETZSCHE: Of course.

PLATO: Were you not, then, impressed by Socrates’ level of reasoning? There were

many times he questioned what he and others knew. Socrates says it is better ‘if we

believe that one must search for the things one does not know, rather than if we
Georgia Wowk
Student ID: 170006814
believe that it is not possible to find out what we don’t know’ (Five Dialogues, Meno,

p.78). His ideas may have become widespread, but they weren’t without total

consideration.

SOCRATES: It is true that my reputation as a gadfly is not one earned without

cause. The method lends itself to discussion, and finding a right answer.

NIETZSCHE: What if there is no right answer? It’s unlikely that one man will ever be

completely correct.

PLATO: Is that not the point of philosophy – to explore what could be right? I learned

from Socrates’ teachings, yet I theorised separately as well. When I passed on my

knowledge at the Academy, other philosophers like Aristotle adopted different

beliefs.

SOCRATES: If you truly believe God is dead, and I do not, it would seem a wise

decision to have a dialectic discussion; to know the truth.

NIETZSCHE: Socrates, Plato – I fear we may never agree. I understand that you feel

obliged to care less for wealth and reputation, and more for the things that make us,

in your view, morally righteous. I understand, too, that this leads to happiness. I,

however, do not believe the universe works in such ways – for instinct is happiness,

and reason stands in opposition to both. As for dialectics, I believe it gives more

consideration to what may otherwise be rightfully ignored. Still, I understand that you

may think it helps us reach the most correct conclusion.

Georgia Wowk
Student ID: 170006814

BIBLIOGRAPHY

1. Nietzsche, F., Polt, R. (1997) Twilight of the Idols. Indianapolis: Hackett

Publishing Company, Inc., pp.12-17

2. Plato, Grube, G.M.A., Cooper, J.M. (2002) Five Dialogues: Euthyphro,

Apology, Crito, Meno, Phaedo. 2nd ed. Indianapolis: Hackett Publishing

Company, Inc. pp. 21-44 (Apology), pp. 45-57 (Crito), pp. 58-92 (Meno)

3. Plato, Grube, G.M.A., Reeve, C.D.C. (1992) Republic. Indianapolis: Hackett

Publishing Company, Inc. pp.94 -121 (Book IV)

4. McPherran, M. (1994) Socrates on Teleological and Moral Theology, Ancient

Philosophy, 14(2), pp. 245-262

5. Jones, R.E. (2013) Wisdom and Happiness in Euthydemus, Philosophers’

Imprint, 13(14), pp. 1-20

6. Hyland, D.A. (2015) Nietzsche’s “Love” for Socrates, Humanities, 4(3), pp. 3-

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