Analysis of MKULTRA, 1977 Joint Hearing (Part 7)

by Dr. Jeffrey Russell, PhD

[First Round of Questioning by Senator Huddleston]

Huddleston: Admiral Turner, you stated that you believe there was no attempt to conceal the new materials.
Did you question the individual involved in those searches before your judgement?
Turner: Yes; I haven’t questioned everyone, but I have questioned Mr. Laubinger here at my left who is the
best authority on this.
Huddleston: But you have inquired sufficiently to assure yourself there was no attempt to conceal
information?
Turner: I am persuaded of that by my questioning and by the methods in which the data was filed. I also
need to point out that these were not the official files. The new files we have are copies of working files
stored in another location. Besides, these files are not that damning compared with the overall material
that was provided.
Huddleston: Is this the kind of operation that if it were continuing now or anything similar to it, you would be
compelled to report to the Select Committee on Intelligence?
Turner: Yes, sir. You mean, if I discovered that something like this were going on without my knowledge?
Yes, I would fee absolutely the requirement to—
Huddleston: But if it were going on with your knowledge, would you report it to the committee? I assume
you would.
Turner: Yes.
Huddleston: What suggestions would you have as we devise charters for the various intelligence agencies?
What provision would you suggest to prohibit this kind of activity from taking place? Would you suggest it
be specifically outlined in a statutory charter setting parameters of permissible operations of the agencies?
Turner: I think we need to consider that. I am not opposed to it. I think we need to be precise with the
wording in delineating restraints and curbs on intelligence activities.
Huddleston: In case of sensitive type operations, which this certainly was, which might be going on today,
is the oversight activity of the agency more intensive now than it was at that time?
Turner: Much more so. I have briefed you and the committee on our sensitive operations. We have the
Intelligence Oversight Board. We have a procedure in the NSC for approval of very sensitive operations.
The spotlight focused on these activities is many times more intense than it was 12 to 24 years ago.
Huddleston: How about the record keeping?
Turner: Yes; I can’t imagine anyone having the gall to destroy records today with all the attention focused
on it. [Note: Today, we can give him a long list of people and agencies who seem to be doing this very
thing.]
Huddleston: Admiral, I am interested in the activity at the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital at Lexington,
KY in which Dr. Isbell conducted experiments on patients there. According to the New York Times, he was
corresponding with the Agency through a man named Ray. Have you identified this person?
Turner: Sir, I find myself in a difficult position here with respect to the Privacy Act.
Huddleston: I’m just asking if you have identified this person referred to as Ray.
Turner: No. Was that W-r-a-y or R-a-y?
Huddleston: In the article, it is R-a-y.
Turner: No, sir. We have not identified him.
Huddleston: So you have no knowledge if he is still connected to the Agency in any way. Have you
attempted to identify him?
Turner: Senator, we have a former employee with first name Ray who may be connected to these activities.
Huddleston: You suspect that but have not verified it at this time?
Turner: That is correct.
Huddleston: Thank you.
[End of First Round of Questioning by Senator Huddleston]