Kirby - Marvel Appellate Document Record Volume 2

Case 11-3333, Document 73, 01/26/2012, 509509, Page1 of 310
CASE NO. 11-3333

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

MVL Rights, LLC,
Plaintiffs-Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
Walt Disney Company, Marvel Entertainment, Incorporated,
Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
v.
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan N. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby,
Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants.
APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME II OF X
Appeal From The United States District Court for the Southern
District of New York,
Civil Case No. 10-141 (CM) (KF), Hon. Colleen McMahon
TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

Marc Toberoff
mtoberoff@ipwla.com
22631 Pacific Coast Highway #348
Malibu, California 90265
Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
Attorneys for Defendants-Appellants,
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan M.
Kirby and Barbara J. Kirby
CASE NO. 11-3333

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

MVL Rights, LLC,
Plaintiffs-Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
Walt Disney Company, Marvel Entertainment, Incorporated,
Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
v.
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan N. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby,
Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants.
APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME II OF X
Appeal From The United States District Court for the Southern
District of New York,
Civil Case No. 10-141 (CM) (KF), Hon. Colleen McMahon

Marc Toberoff
mtoberoff@ipwla.com
Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan M.
Kirby and Barbara J. Kirby
TABLE OF CONTENTS
JA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
II 65-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 1 – Excerpts from the May 13, 226
2010 and December 8, 2010 Depositions
of Stan Lee
II 65-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the October 327
21, 2010 Deposition of John Romita
26 and October 27, 2010 Depositions of
Roy Thomas
II 65-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the January 7, 422
2011 Deposition of Lawrence Lieber
II 65-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the June 30, 448
2010 Deposition of Neal Kirby
II 65-6 2/25/2011 Exhibit 6 – Excerpts from the July 1, 497
2010 Deposition of Lisa Kirby
i
INDEX TO APPENDICES
Joint Appendix

Volume No.
I N/A 1/9/2012 Docket for Civil Case 1:10-cv-00141- 1
CM-KNF as of January 9, 2012
I 1 1/8/2010 Complaint 19
I 9 3/9/2010 Notice of Defendants’ Motion to 36
Dismiss for Lack of Personal
Jurisdiction and Failure to Join
Necessary Parties
I 10 3/9/2010 Defendants’ Memorandum of Law re: 39
Motion to Dismiss
I 11 3/9/2010 Declaration of Lisa Kirby re: Motion to 67
Dismiss
I 12 3/9/2010 Declaration of Neal Kirby re: Motion to 71
Dismiss
I 13 3/9/2010 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: Motion 75
to Dismiss
I 18 3/26/2010 Declaration of Alan Braverman re: 78
Motion to Dismiss
I 19 3/26/2010 Declaration of Eli Bard re: Motion to 80
Dismiss
I 20 3/26/2010 Declaration of James Quinn re: Motion 84
to Dismiss
I 23 4/6/2010 Reply Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 87
Motion to Dismiss
I 24 4/6/2010 Reply Declaration of Lisa Kirby re: 91
Motion to Dismiss
I 27 4/14/2010 Order Denying Defendants’ Motion to 95
Dismiss
I 30 4/28/2010 Answer to Complaint and Counterclaims 111
ii

Volume No.
I 43 10/14/2010 Order re: Deposition of Mark Evanier 140
I 50 12/6/2010 Answer to Counterclaims 142
I 60 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion for 150
Summary Judgment
I 61 2/25/2011 Plaintiffs’ Rule 56.1 Statement re: 152
Plaintiffs’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
I 62 2/25/2011 Plaintiffs’ Memorandum re: Plaintiffs’ 186
Motion for Summary Judgment
I 65 2/25/2011 Declaration of Randi Singer re: 214
Judgment
II 65-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 1 – Excerpts from the May 13, 226
2010 and December 8, 2010 Depositions
of Stan Lee
Roy Thomas
II 65-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the January 7, 422
II 65-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the June 30, 448
II 65-6 2/25/2011 Exhibit 6 – Excerpts from the July 1, 497
2010 Deposition of Lisa Kirby
III 65-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 7 – Excerpts from the October 515
25, 2010 Deposition of Susan Kirby
III 65-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 8 – Excerpts from the November 531
9, 2010 Deposition of Mark Evanier
III 65-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 9 – Excerpts from the December 553
iii

Volume No.
III 65-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 10 – Excerpts from the January 581
10, 2011 Deposition of John Morrow
III 65-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 15 – August 31, 2009 Press 599
Release from the Walt Disney Company
III 65-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 17 – May 30, 1972 Agreement 603
between Jack Kirby and Magazine
Management Co., Inc.
III 65-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 18 – 1981 Interview with Stan 609
Lee by Leonard Pitts, Jr.
III 65-28 2/25/2011 Exhibit 25 – November 1, 1998 629
Agreement between Stan Lee and
Marvel Enterprises, Inc.
III 65-29 2/25/2011 Exhibit 26 – August 6, 2007 Interview 640
with Lawrence Lieber by Daniel Best
III 65-30 2/25/2011 Exhibit 27 – January 9, 1963 Letter from 671
Stan Lee to Jerry Bails
III 65-31 2/25/2011 Exhibit 28 – Excerpt from Kirby: King 674
of Comics by Mark Evanier
III 65-32 2/25/2011 Exhibit 29 – “Stan Lee Made Up the Plot 677
… And I’d Write the Script” by Roy
Thomas
III 65-33 2/25/2011 Exhibit 30 – Two-page synopsis of The 692
Fantastic Four
III 66-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 31 – Interview with Stan Lee by 695
Dan Hagen
III 66-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 32 – Transcript of Interview with 715
Stan Lee by Eric Leguebe
III 66-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 33 – Excerpts from Origins of 724
Marvel Comics by Stan Lee
III 66-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 34 – June 11, 2007 Affidavit of 758
Stan Lee
iv

Volume No.
III 66-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 35 – March 7, 2006 Agreement 774
between Stan Lee and Marvel
Entertainment, Inc.
III 66-6 2/25/2011 Exhibit 36 – May 19, 1978 Agreement 777
between John Romita and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 37 – June 1, 1978 Agreement 779
between Roy Thomas and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 38 – April 28, 2008 Letter from 781
Gene Colan to Marvel Comics
Enterprises
III 66-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 39 – Excerpt from The Art of 784
Jack Kirby by Ray Wyman, Jr.
III 66-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 40 – January 9, 1966 Article 787
“Super-Heroes With Super Problems” by
Nat Freedland
IV 66-11 2/25/2011 Exhibit 41 – Interview with Jack Kirby 794
and 66- by Gary Groth
12
IV 66-13 2/25/2011 Exhibit 42 – Excerpt from Jack Kirby 826
Collector Fifty-Four
IV 66-14 2/25/2011 Exhibit 43 – Interview with Jack Kirby 829
by Mark Herbert
IV 66-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 44 – July 12, 1966 Affidavit of 841
Jack Kirby
IV 66-16 2/25/2011 Exhibit 45 – Renewal Copyright 853
Registrations signed by Jack Kirby
IV 66-17 2/25/2011 Exhibit 46 – March 24, 1975 Agreement 874
between Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics
Group
v

Volume No.
IV 66-18 2/25/2011 Exhibit 47 – June 16, 1986 883
Acknowledgement of Copyright
Ownership by Jack Kirby
IV 66-19 2/25/2011 Exhibit 48 – June 16, 1987 Agreement 886
between Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics
Group
IV 66-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 49 – May 12, 1987 Letter from 898
Joseph Calamari to Jack Kirby
IV 66-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 50 – October 3, 1986 Article 901
“Response: Jack Kirby replies to Marvel
Statement”
IV 66-22 2/25/2011 Exhibit 51 – November 19, 1997 Letter 904
from Stephen F. Rohde to Joseph
Calamari
IV 66-23 2/25/2011 Exhibit 52 – Interview with Stan Lee by 908
David Anthony Kraft
IV 66-24 2/25/2011 Exhibit 53 – Interview with Stan Lee by 925
Clifford Meth and Daniel Dickholtz
IV 66-26 2/25/2011 Exhibit 55 – September 22, 2009 Article 931
“Who Created Spider-Man? [Kirby
Lawsuit]” by Al Nickerson
IV 66-27 2/25/2011 Exhibit 56 – Excerpt from “The JACK 934
F.A.Q.”
IV 66-28 2/25/2011 Exhibit 57 – Excerpt from “The JACK 939
F.A.Q.”
IV 67 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude 945
the Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69 2/25/2011 Declaration of Sabrina Perelman re: 947
Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude the
Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 950
vi

Volume No.
IV 69-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the November 995
IV 69-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from November 16, 1008
1999 trial proceedings in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group Inc., et al., Case
No. 97-638-RRM, in the U.S. District
Court for the District of Delaware
IV 69-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 1014
12, 1999 Deposition of Mark Evanier in
In re Marvel Entertainment Group
IV 70 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude 1017
the Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72 2/25/2011 Declaration of David Fleischer re: 1019
Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the January 1021
IV 73 2/25/2011 Notice of Defendants’ Motion for 1077
Summary Judgment
IV 74 2/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1080
Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 74-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit A – November 4, 2010 Expert 1088
Report of Mark Evanier
V 74-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from Kirby: King 1116
of Comics by Mark Evanier
V 74-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit C – 1972 “Jack Kirby’s Gods” 1125
Portfolio
V 74-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit D – 1969-1971 Presentation 1132
Pieces by Jack Kirby
V 75 2/25/2011 Declaration of John Morrow re: 1135
Judgment
vii

Volume No.
V 75-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit A – November 4, 2010 Expert 1140
Report of John Morrow
V 75-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Fantastic Four: The Lost 1161
through Adventure #1
75-4
V 78 2/25/2011 Defendants’ Rule 56.1 Statement re: 1229
Judgment
V 82 3/25/2011 Supplement Declaration of Randi Singer 1235
re: Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 82-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit 58 – Excerpts from the October 1238
Roy Thomas
V 82-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit 60 – Excerpts from the January 1249
7, 2011 Deposition of Lawrence Lieber
V 82-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit 61 – Excerpts from the June 30, 1252
V 82-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit 63 – Excerpts from the January 1259
V 83 3/25/2011 Opposition to Local Rule 56.1 Statement 1277
re: Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 85 3/25/2011 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 1295
Testimony of John Morrow
V 85-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpts from the January 1299
viii

Volume No.
V 85-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – “Battling the Kirby Bug” by 1315
John Morrow
V 85-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Cover of Challengers of the 1317
Unknown, No. 1
V 87 3/25/2011 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 1319
V 87-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpt from Kirby: King of 1323
Comics by Mark Evanier
V 87-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – Excerpts from the December 1325
V 87-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Excerpts from the October 1342
V 87-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit G – Excerpts from the October 1348
Roy Thomas
V 88 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1356
V 89 3/25/2011 Declaration of John Morrow re: 1359
Judgment
V 90 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1364
Judgment
V 91 3/25/2011 Declaration of Richard Ayers re: 1372
Judgment
V 92 3/25/2011 Declaration of Joe Sinnott re: Plaintiffs’ 1378
VI 93 3/25/2011 Declaration of Neal Adams re: Plaintiffs’ 1384
ix

Volume No.
VI 94 3/25/2011 Declaration of James Steranko re: 1390
Judgment
VI 95 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Toberoff (Part II) 1397
re: Motions for Summary Judgment
VI 95-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit A – September 16, 2009 1408
“Fantastic Four” Termination Notice
VI 95-2 3/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the November 1424
VI 95-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpts from the December 1437
VI 95-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit D – Excerpts from the January 1477
VI 95-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – Excerpts from the January 7, 1513
VI 95-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Excerpts from the October 1532
VI 95-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit G – Excerpts from the June 30, 1559
VI 95-8 3/25/2011 Exhibit H – Excerpts from the October 1602
VI 95-9 3/25/2011 Exhibit I – Excerpts from the May 13, 1611
2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
VI 95-10 3/25/2011 Exhibit J – Excerpts from the December 1621
8, 2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
VI 95-11 3/25/2011 Exhibit K – Excerpts from the October 1653
27, 2010 Deposition of Roy Thomas
VI 95-12 3/25/2011 Exhibit L – Plaintiffs’ December 20, 1660
2011 Response to Defendants’ First Set
of Requests for Admissions
VI 95-13 3/25/2011 Exhibit M – Attached as Exhibit 17 to 1668
the Declaration of Randi Singer
x

Volume No.
VI 95-14 3/25/2011 Exhibit N – Jack Kirby Pencil Drawings 1675
of “Thor”
VII 95-15 3/25/2011 Exhibit O – Article “Kirby’s Gamma 1682
Rays: Alpha to Omega! – An Ultra-Rare
Find from 1962!”
VII 95-16 3/25/2011 Exhibit P – July 7, 2006 Agreement 1690
between Lisa Kirby and Marvel
Characters, Inc.
VII 95-17 3/25/2011 Exhibit Q – December 23, 2008 1692
Agreement between Lisa Kirby and
Marvel Characters, Inc.
VII 95-18 3/25/2011 Exhibit R – November 3, 2008 1704
Agreement between Lisa Kirby and
Marvel Characters, Inc.
VII 95-19 3/25/2011 Exhibit S – “Article “Fantastic Four 1713
#108: Jack’s Way”
VII 95-20 3/25/2011 Exhibit T – March 21, 1965 “Request for 1723
Payment” from Don Heck to Western
Printing and Lithographic
VII 95-21 3/25/2011 Exhibit U – Excerpts from “Five 1726
Fabulous Decades of the World’s
Greatest Comics: Marvel” by Les
Daniels
VII 95-22 3/25/2011 Exhibit V – Excerpts from “Alter Ego 1737
Presents: John Romita … and All that
Jazz!” by Roy Thomas and Jim Amash
VII 95-23 3/25/2011 Exhibit W – Excerpts from Jack Kirby 1746
Checklist Gold Edition
VII 95-24 3/25/2011 Exhibit X – Excerpts from The Art of 1763
Jack Kirby
VII 95-25 3/25/2011 Exhibit Y – Article “Kirby Gets 1776
Cracked”
xi

Volume No.
VII 95-26 3/25/2011 Exhibit Z – Article “The Monster of 1781
Moraggia”
VII 95-27 3/25/2011 Exhibit AA – 1974-1975 Checks to 1791
Richard Ayer
VII 95-28 3/25/2011 Exhibit BB – 1986 Check to Jack Kirby 1817
VII 95-29 3/25/2011 Exhibit CC – Article “Would You Like 1820
to See My Etchings?”
VII 95-30 3/25/2011 Exhibit DD – Attached as Exhibits 36 1828
and 37 to the Declaration of Randi
Singer
VII 95-31 3/25/2011 Exhibit EE – Draft Agreement between 1831
Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics Groups
VII 97-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit FF – Artwork by Jack Kirby 1842
VII 97-2 3/25/2011 Exhibit GG – Excerpts from Article “A 1850
Failure to Communicate: Part Two”
VII 97-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit HH – Excerpts from Article 1860
“Jack Kirby”
VII 97-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit II – Excerpts from Article “Hour 1863
Twenty-Five”
VII 97-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit JJ – Excerpts from Article “Jack 1865
Kirby Interview”
VII 97-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit KK – Excerpts from Article 1869
“Wow-What an Interview”
VII 97-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit LL – November 12, 1980 1872
Declaration of Donald S. Engel and
Exhibits C, D, E, attached thereto from
Gerber v. Cadence Industries
Corporation, et al., Case No. 80 3840
DVK, in the U.S. District Court for the
Central District of California
VII 97-8 3/25/2011 Exhibit MM – Excerpts from “Stan Lee: 1899
Conversations”
xii

Volume No.
VII 97-9 3/25/2011 Exhibit NN – Excerpts from Article 1904
“Jack Kirby A Celebration”
VII 97-10 3/25/2011 Exhibit OO –Article “Jack Kirby 1907
Interview”
VII 97-11 3/25/2011 Exhibit PP – Article “Kirby and Goliath: 1909
The Fight for Jack Kirby’s Marvel
Artwork”
VII 97-12 3/25/2011 Exhibit QQ – November 19, 1985 Letter 1917
from DC Comics to The Comics Journal
VII 97-13 3/25/2011 Exhibit RR – Handwritten Notes of Jack 1919
Kirby
VII 97-14 3/25/2011 Exhibit SS – Excerpt from Article “A 1924
Talk with Artist-Writer-Editor Jack
Kirby”
VII 97-15 3/25/2011 Exhibit TT – Article “Jack Kirby 1926
Interview”
VII 97-16 3/25/2011 Exhibit UU – Excerpts from “Superhero 1929
Women” by Stan Lee
VII 97-17 3/25/2011 Exhibit VV – Excerpts from “Interview 1933
with Stan Lee” from ign.com
VII 97-18 3/25/2011 Exhibit WW – Excerpts from “Son of 1937
Origins of Marvel Comics” by Stan Lee
VII 97-19 3/25/2011 Exhibit XX – Excerpts from “The 1942
Fantastic Four” by Stan Lee
VII 97-20 3/25/2011 Exhibit YY – Excerpts from “Alter Ego, 1946
No. 74”
VII 97-21 3/25/2011 Exhibit ZZ – Excerpts from Article 1950
“Jack Kirby – The Master of Comic
Book Art”
VII 97-22 3/25/2011 Exhibit AAA – Excerpts from Article 1953
“Stan Lee Interview – WBAI Radio NY
– August 12, 1986”
xiii

Volume No.
VII 97-23 3/25/2011 Exhibit BBB – Excerpts from “The 1956
Incredible Hulk” by Stan Lee
VII 97-24 3/25/2011 Exhibit CCC – Excerpts from Article 1959
“The Goldberg Variations”
VII 97-25 3/25/2011 Exhibit DDD – Excerpts from Article 1962
“Stan Lee Interview – WBAI Radio NY
– March 3, 1967”
VII 97-26 3/25/2011 Exhibit EEE – Article “Jack Kirby: 1965
Prisoner of Gravity”
VIII 97-27 3/25/2011 Exhibit FFF – Article “Jack Kirby: A 1968
By-the-Month Chronology”
VIII 97-28 3/25/2011 Exhibit GGG – Article “The Highs and 2006
Lows of Henry Pym”
VIII 97-29 3/25/2011 Exhibit HHH – Article “They Were 2011
Aces”
VIII 97-30 3/25/2011 Exhibit III – December 24, 1980 2014
Declaration of Stephen Gerber and
Exhibit 3, attached thereto from Gerber
v. Cadence Industries Corporation, et al.
VIII 97-31 3/25/2011 Exhibit JJJ – Excerpts from “Nimmer on 2037
Copyright” (1963)
VIII 97-32 3/25/2011 Exhibit KKK – August 5, 1986 Letter 2049
from Joe Sacco to Paul Levine and
enclosure
VIII 98 3/25/2011 Opposition to Local Rule 56.1 Statement 2056
re: Plaintiffs’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
VIII 99 3/25/2011 Redacted Declaration of Gene Colan re: 2146
Judgment
IX 108 4/8/2011 Reply to Local Rule 56.1 Statement re: 2152
Judgment
xiv

Volume No.
IX 110 4/8/2011 Reply Declaration of Sabrina Perelman 2286
re: Plaintiffs’ Motions to Exclude the
Testimony of Mark Evanier and John
Morrow
IX 110-1 4/8/2011 Exhibit 1: Excerpts from November 16, 2288
1999 trial transcript in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group
IX 114 4/8/2011 Reply Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 2292
Judgment
IX 114-1 4/8/2011 Exhibit 1: Excerpts from “Five 2296
Fabulous Decades of the World’s
Greatest Comics: Marvel” by Les
Daniels
IX 114-2 4/8/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 2302
8, 2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
IX 114-3 4/8/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the December 2313
IX 114-4 4/8/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the October 2319
IX 114-5 4/8/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 2325
Roy Thomas
IX 116 4/8/2011 Reply to Local Rule 56.1 Statement re: 2332
Judgment
IX 121 7/28/2011 Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Motion for 2367
Summary Judgment and Denying
Judgment
IX 123 8/8/2011 Judgment 2417
IX 124 8/15/2011 Notice of Appeal 2419
xv

Volume No.
X N/A Transcript for the May 13, 2010 2421
Deposition of Stan Lee (requested by the
Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on
June 6, 2011)
Confidential Appendix
CA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
I 103 3/25/2011 Declaration of Gene Colan re: Plaintiffs’ 1
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit A: March 22, 1975 Agreement 7
between Gene Colan and Marvel Comics
Group
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit B: May 30, 1978 Agreement 15
Group
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit C: April 28, 2008 Letter from 16
Gene Colan to Joe Quesada
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit D: May 31, 2008 Agreement 18
between Gene Colan and Marvel
Characters, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Confidential Declaration of Marc 28
Toberoff re: Plaintiffs’ Motion for
Summary Judgment
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 2: July 26, 2002 Agreement 33
between Stan Lee and Marvel Enterprises,
Inc
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 4: March 20, 2006 Agreement 35
between Silver Creek Pictures, Inc. and
POW! Entertainment, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 5: May 2, 2008 Agreement 39
between Silver Creek Pictures, Inc. and
POW! Entertainment, Inc.
xvi

Volume No.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 6: December 31, 2009 47
Agreement between Catalyst Investments,
LLC and POW! Entertainment, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 7: December 18, 2009 59
Agreement between Silver Creek
Pictures, Inc. and POW! Entertainment,
Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 8: June 11, 2007 Agreement 72
between Marvel Entertainment, Inc. and
Stan Lee.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 9: Excerpts from the January 7, 77
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 10: March 22, 1975 Agreement 82
Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 11: September 1, 1974 91
Agreement between Roy Thomas and
Marvel Comics Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 12: August 27, 1976 Agreement 99
between Roy Thomas and Marvel Comics
Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 13: February 24, 1978 Letter 110
between Cadence Publishing Division
and Roy Thomas, enclosing March 7,
1977 Agreement between Roy Thomas
and Marvel Comics Group
II N/A Transcript for the October 21, 2010 115
Deposition of John Romita (requested by
the Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on
July 12, 2011)
III N/A Transcript for the October 26, 2010 395
Deposition of Roy Thomas (requested by
July 12, 2011)
xvii

Volume No.
III N/A Transcript for the October 27, 2010 601
Deposition of Roy Thomas (requested by
July 12, 2011)
IV N/A Transcript for the December 8, 2010 705
Deposition of Stan Lee (requested by the
Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on June
6, 2011)
Special Appendix
SA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
I 123 8/8/2011 Judgment 1
I 121 7/28/2011 Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Motion for 3
Summary Judgment and Denying
Judgment
I 27 4/14/2010 Order Denying Defendants’ Motion to 53
Dismiss
xviii
Case 11-3333, DocumentDocument
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 73, 01/26/2012,
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1 of 101
EXHIBIT 1
JA226
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CONFIDENTIAL PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
Page 1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3
4 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., )
5 MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC. and )
6 MVL RIGHTS, LLC, )
7 PLAINTIFFS, )
8 )
9 VS. ) NO. 10-141-CMKF
10 )
11 LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, )
12 NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
13 DEFENDANTS. )
14 __________________________________)
15
16 CONFIDENTIAL PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
17 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF STAN LEE
18 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
19 MAY 13, 2010
20
21
22 REPORTED BY:
23 CHRISTY A. CANNARIATO, CSR #7954, RPR, CRR, CLR
24 JOB NO.: 30189
25
TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

JA227
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Filed 02/25/11 of 310
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Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order
Page 150
3
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., )
5 and MVL RIGHTS, LLC, )
)
6 Plaintiffs, )
)
7 vs. )Case No. 10-141-CMKF
)
8 LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. )
KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY and )
9 SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
)
10 Defendants. )
__________________________)
11
12
13
14
15 CONFIDENTIAL PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
16 VOLUME II
17 DEPOSITION OF STAN LEE
18 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
19 WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 8, 2010
20
21
22
23
REPORTED BY:
24 Alejandria E. Kate
CSR NO. 11897, HI 448, RPR, CLR
25 JOB NO.: 35197
TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
JA228
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Page 11
1 S. LEE
2 1930s, 1940s?
3 A. I think it must have been 1939 or 1940,
4 somewhere around there.
5 Q. And what was your first job responsibility at
6 Timely?
7 A. Well, I was hired by two people, Joe Simon and
8 Jack Kirby, who were producing the comics at that time for
9 this company which was called Timely Comics.
10 Q. And --
11 A. And my job was to really be an assistant. I
12 went down, and I got them their lunch sandwiches for them,
13 and I filled their -- in those days they dipped the
14 brushes in ink and used pencil sharpeners. And I
15 sharpened the pencils. I erased the pages after they were
16 finished. And I did whatever an assistant or an office
17 boy would do.
18 Q. And at that time who was running or owned
19 Timely?
20 A. The company was owned by a man named Martin
21 Goodman.
22 Q. And he was the publisher?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did Timely -- is Timely a predecessor or
25 did Timely eventually become what we now know as Marvel?

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2 Q. BY MR. QUINN: You mentioned just a few
3 minutes ago before we took our short break that you had
4 started as, I guess, an apprentice effectively at Timely
5 Marvel around 1940. Did there come a time that you were
6 -- you got a promotion?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell us about how that occurred.
9 A. Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were really the only
10 two people there producing the comics, and for some reason
11 they left, and I was the only guy left in the department.
12 So Martin asked me if I could sort of function as the
13 editor and art director and writer until he hired someone,
14 a grown up. And I said, Sure. You know, when you're 18
15 years old, what do you know? I said, Sure, I can do it.
16 And I think he forgot to hire a grownup, because I was
17 there ever since.
18 Q. Right. 60 years later they still haven't
19 hired a grownup?
20 A. I'm still waiting.
21 Q. But you had grown up.
22 Now, did you have an understanding at the time
23 or did you come to have an understanding as to why Simon
24 and Kirby were let go?
25 A. I didn't know at the time, but I have heard

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2 much later from a number of different people that it had
3 something to do with -- they were supposed to have been
4 working exclusively for Martin Goodman, and he found out
5 they had, I think, been doing some work for some other
6 company. Something like that.
7 Q. And he fired them, in effect?
8 A. I guess. Yeah.
9 Q. Now, when you became the editor, what were
10 your job responsibilities?
11 A. Well, I was writing a lot of the stories, and
12 I also would hire different artists to draw the stories,
13 artists, letterers, inkers, so forth.
14 Q. And was it your responsibility to hire the
15 writers and other artists and inkers and so forth and give
16 them assignments --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- with regard to what they were going to
19 actually be doing?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. Leading.
22 Q. And who oversaw -- tell us a little bit how
23 that assignment process worked.
24 A. Well, it was my job to dream up new characters
25 or to continue with the characters we had and to pick the

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2 best artists and the best writers unless I wrote something
3 my -- I had the privilege, which now that I think back, it
4 was rare, but I could either write stories myself or I
5 could hire writers. I couldn't write everything. And it
6 was my job to hire the artists to draw the stories. And I
7 did that for quite a number of years.
8 Q. And did you give instructions to the artists
9 as to how you wanted the story to go?
10 A. Oh, yes. That was my job as Art Director.
11 Q. So in addition to writing, you were also the
12 Art Director?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, who oversaw -- whose responsibility was
15 the creative editorial aspects of the comic books that
16 were created?
17 A. Well, the responsibility was mine, because I
18 had to answer to the publisher, Martin Goodman, and he had
19 to be happy with what I was doing.
20 Q. Did you have the ability to not only make
21 assignments but also to edit and change things that other
22 writers or artists did in connection with the comics?
23 A. Yeah. That was my job. If, for example, I
24 saw some art work, and I felt there wasn't enough action
25 on a page, or it was confusing, the reader might not know

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2 what it was, or in a script if I felt there was too much
3 dialogue or too little dialogue, it was -- it was up to me
4 to make the stories as good as I could make them.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned that you did perform
6 services not only as an editor but also as a writer.
7 A. Mm-hmm.
8 Q. Did you consider the services you performed as
9 a writer part of your duties as the editor or something
10 additional?
11 A. Well, I never thought of it that way. I was
12 the Editor. I was the Art Director. And I was also a
13 staff writer.
14 Q. And how were you paid in connection with the
15 work that you did?
16 A. How was I paid?
17 Q. How were you paid in connection with the work
18 as Editor and as a writer?
19 A. I received a salary which paid me as Editor
20 and Art Director, but I got paid on a freelance basis for
21 the stories that I wrote.
22 Q. And when you say you were paid on a freelance
23 basis, how were you paid? On what basis?
24 A. The same as every other writer. I was paid
25 per page, so much money per page of script.

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2 Q. There was a fixed amount of money --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- for each page?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was there a policy or did you have a
7 policy to pay writers and artists on that per page rate
8 whether or not the page was actually used or published?
9 A. Oh, yes. Even if we didn't publish -- if an
10 artist drew a 10-page story, and the artist rate was $20 a
11 page, I would put in a voucher for $200 for that artist.
12 Now, if -- and this happened rarely --- but if we decided
13 not to use that story, the artist would still keep the
14 money because he had done the work. It wasn't his fault.
15 So -- and that's the way it was. Everybody was paid per
16 page.
17 Q. Now, you mentioned that you had the right to
18 edit and make changes. Was there anyone else in addition
19 to you who had the right to edit and make changes --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- in the work? Who was that?
22 A. Oh, my boss, Martin Goodman, though he really
23 didn't edit. He would just call me into his office and
24 say: Jeez, Stan. I didn't think that story was good. Do
25 a better one next time. This book didn't sell so well. I

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2 think you better see what's wrong. Maybe it needs a new
3 artist or a new writer." Things like that. But I did the
4 actual detail work.
5 Q. Were there times where Mr. Goodman would tell
6 you that he didn't want something to be done a certain way
7 --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. -- and you changed?
10 A. Yes, there were. Not that often, but yes.
11 Q. But that was your understanding of how the
12 process worked?
13 A. Oh, absolutely. He was the -- he was the
14 ultimate boss.
15 Q. And did he have the final say on what was
16 published back in the 1950s and 60s?
17 A. Yes. As long as he was the publisher, he did.
18 Q. Did Mr. Goodman ever edit any of your work?
19 A. Not too often except every so often he'd say:
20 I think you're putting in too much dialogue. I don't
21 think the readers want to read that much. And I always
22 disagreed with him, so I would sneak in as much dialogue
23 as I could.
24 Q. Now, was this pretty much the practice that
25 existed at Marvel beginning when you started as Editor in

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2 the early 1940s and then up through the time that you
3 became the publisher in the late 1960s?
4 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague and ambiguous.
5 Q. You can answer.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did this process of assignment and so
8 forth come to be known as the Marvel method?
9 A. Oh, no. No. The Marvel method referred to
10 something else.
11 Q. Okay. Why don't you describe the Marvel
12 method.
13 A. There was a time when I was writing so many
14 stories that I couldn't keep up with the artists. I
15 couldn't feed them enough work. And, you see, the artists
16 were freelancers. Now, for example, if Jack was working
17 on a story, and Steve was waiting for me to give him a
18 story because he had had finished what he had been
19 doing --
20 Q. Jack being Jack Kirby?
21 A. Jack Kirby.
22 Q. And Steve Ditko?
23 A. Right. Or it could have been any of the
24 artists. But just using them as an example, if one of
25 them was waiting for a story while I was still finishing

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2 writing the story for the other one, I couldn't keep him
3 waiting because he wasn't making money. He was a
4 freelancer. He wasn't on salary.
5 So I would say: Look, Steve, I don't have
6 time to write your script for you, but this is the idea
7 for the story. I'd like this fill in, and I'd like this
8 to happen, and in the end the hero ends by doing this.
9 You go ahead and draw it any way you want to, as long as
10 you keep to that main theme. And I will keep finishing
11 Jack's story. And when you finish drawing this one, I
12 will put in all the dialogue and the captions.
13 So in that way I could keep one artist working
14 while I was finishing something for another artist. That
15 worked out so well that I began doing that with just about
16 all the artists. I would just give them an idea for a
17 story, let them draw it any way they wanted to. Because
18 no matter how they drew it, even if they didn't do it as
19 well as I might have wanted, I was conceited enough to
20 think I could fix it up by the way I put the dialogue and
21 the captions in. And I'd make sense out of it even if
22 they may have made -- have done something wrong.
23 And I was able to keep a lot of artists busy
24 at the same time by using that system. And I have never
25 given that long an explanation before.

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2 Q. Did you end up using that system -- and when
3 did this come into play? In the 1950s and 60s,
4 approximately?
5 A. Probably the 50s.
6 Q. During the time that you were the Editor?
7 A. I was always the Editor.
8 Q. Until the late 1960s when you became
9 publisher?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. And in that process, did you always maintain
12 the ability to edit and make changes or reject what the
13 other writers or artists had created?
14 A. Oh, sure.
15 Q. And did you do that on a regular basis?
16 A. If something had to be rejected, sure.
17 Q. And that would include artwork that was done
18 by, for example, Jack Kirby?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. And do you recall instances where that
21 occurred?
22 A. It's a strange thing. I didn't recall it --
23 recall those instances too well. But I was talking to
24 John Romita once. He was one of our artists. And we were
25 talking about whether I had every rejected any pages. And

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2 I said sometimes I can't remember. And he said, "Stan,
3 don't you remember? Sometimes if somebody wanted a job as
4 an inker at our place," and an inker is somebody who goes
5 over the pencil drawings with ink so that they can be
6 reproduced better at the engraver, he said, "If we wanted
7 to test an inker to see how good he'd be, we would take
8 one of the pages of Jack's that you hadn't used and ask
9 the inker to ink over them as samples."
10 And I had forgotten about that, but John
11 Romita -- we were talking about that. It was a few years
12 ago he told me that.
13 Q. And when you had that conversation with Mr.
14 Romita, did that refresh your recollection that you had
15 from time to time rejected pages from Jack Kirby?
16 A. Yeah. Actually probably less from Kirby than
17 anybody else, because he was so good. But I had -- there
18 were times when things had to be rejected for a myriad
19 reasons.
20 (Lee Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
21 Q. Let me mark as Lee Exhibit 1 an affidavit,
22 it's a document entitled "Affidavit of Stan Lee," and ask
23 you to take a look at that.
24 MR. TOBEROFF: I would like to make a standing
25 objection, if you will agree, otherwise I have to make it

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2 MR. TOBEROFF: Thank you.
3 MR. QUINN: I totally disagree given the fact
4 that you rejected over and over again our offer. But in
5 any event, let's move on and save time.
6 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Okay. Now, could you take a
7 look at the last page of the document entitled Affidavit
8 of Stan Lee. It's page 8 of the affidavit.
9 And is that your signature?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And have you had an opportunity in the last
12 day or so to review this affidavit?
13 A. I'd have to refresh my memory.
14 Q. Go ahead and refresh your recollection again.
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And having reviewed the affidavit, is there
17 anything in the affidavit as far as you know today that's
18 inaccurate or wrong?
19 A. No, I don't think so.
20 Q. It's all truthful?
21 A. Mm-hmm. Yes.
22 Q. I'm just going to ask you a couple of
23 questions --
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. -- about some of the things that's in the

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2 affidavit.
3 You just testified a little while ago about
4 the process that you utilized in connection with making
5 assignments, and so forth. And paragraphs, I guess, 3 and
6 4 of this affidavit also describe the same methodology.
7 In paragraph 4 of the affidavit it reads, and
8 I will just read it and you can follow along, it says,
9 "Timely," that would be Marvel, "however, always
10 maintained the right to direct the storylines and the
11 right to edit any aspect of the materials I submitted for
12 publication, including the characteristics of any existing
13 or new characters I utilized in the storylines."
14 Now, would that also be true with regard to
15 other writers and other artists; --
16 A. Wait.
17 Q. -- that Marvel maintained the right to direct
18 the storylines --
19 A. Oh, yes. The artists and -- it held for the
20 artists and the writers and the letterers and the inkers
21 and the colorists and everybody.
22 Q. And the next sentence says, "At that time it
23 was typical in the industry for comic book publishers to
24 own the rights to the materials that were created for them
25 for publication."

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2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that was your understanding --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- at that time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that continued through the time that you
8 stopped being the editor in the late 1960s?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So that would include the period of the 1950s
11 and 60s?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And it further goes on that -- and that would
14 apply not only to things that you created but also things
15 that were created by other writers and other artists like
16 Jack Kirby?
17 A. Yes. That's right.
18 Q. And that was the understanding in the industry
19 at the time?
20 A. That was my understanding.
21 Q. And it goes on to say that "Timely," referring
22 to Marvel, "would own whatever rights existed to all of
23 the materials I created or co-created for publication."
24 That was your understanding?
25 A. Yes, it was.

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2 Q. And that was your understanding not only with
3 regard to materials you created but were created by the
4 other writers and artists who were working under your
5 direction?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you ever recollect, going back during
8 that period of time anyone, any of the other writers or
9 artists disagreeing or telling you that they didn't --
10 they didn't agree with that?
11 A. During this period of time? No.
12 Q. Now, in paragraph 11, there is a reference to
13 a Schedule A that's attached to this affidavit. And it
14 says that, "A list of some of the characters I created or
15 co-created for Timely, Marvel, appears on Schedule A."
16 And, to the best of your knowledge, is that a
17 list of some of the characters that you either created or
18 co-created?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And looking at paragraph 13 of the affidavit,
21 it states, I will read it into the record, "For years I,"
22 being you, "received checks from Timely and its successor
23 that bore a legend acknowledging that the payment was for
24 works for hire."
25 Do you recall -- that's a true statement;

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2 right?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And do you recall that that was the practice
5 at the time?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. And was that the practice not only with
8 respect to you but with all the writers and artists?
9 A. Oh, yes.
10 Q. And that would include Mr. Kirby?
11 A. Yes. Everybody.
12 Q. Do you remember a woman who worked for Marvel
13 back at the time by the name of Millie Shuriff?
14 A. There was a Millie. I think she was in the
15 Bookkeeping Department. I never knew her last name or I
16 don't remember it.
18 Q. I'm going to mark an affidavit as Lee 2. And
19 I'm just going to ask you an a couple questions about the
20 affidavit. I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to point you
21 to the paragraph 7, which is on the second page of the
22 affidavit.
23 And it says that, Miss Shuriff says that "all
24 of the writing and drawing for the comic books was done on
25 a work made for hire basis."

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2 That was your understanding?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Consistent?
5 And then it says in paragraph 8, that "The
6 work for hire language was affixed to each freelancer
7 check by way of an ink stamp."
8 Is that consistent with your recollection?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. That's all I have on that.
11 Let me go back for a second to you mentioned
12 the fact that the writers and artists during this period
13 of time were paid on a per page rate.
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And were different artists and different
16 writers paid different rates?
17 A. Oh, yes, according to how valuable we thought
18 they were.
19 Q. And did it matter -- let's take a particular
20 artist, oh, say Jack Kirby. Did it matter whether he --
21 was Mr. Kirby one who got a higher page rate?
22 A. He got the highest because I considered him
23 our best artist.
24 Q. And with regard to his page rate, he got that
25 page rate whether or not the actual drawings were

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2 ultimately published?
3 A. Oh, yes. Most of them. They were practically
4 all published, and, yeah, he always -- I made sure he got
5 the highest rate.
6 Q. Now, did it matter -- he always got -- he got
7 the highest rate, but he got the same rate, whether it was
8 for Fantastic Four or for The Hulk or for -- in other
9 words, he wasn't paid a different rate based on the
10 characters?
11 A. As far as I can remember, he wasn't paid a
12 different rate. I wouldn't swear to it, because there may
13 -- I don't remember ever giving him a different rate. Let
14 me put it that way.
15 Q. That's what I'm asking, your best
16 recollection.
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. That's your best recollection?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions,
21 general questions, about kind of creation of the comic
22 book. And perhaps nobody knows it better than you do.
23 In general terms, and let's focus on the
24 period 1950s and 60s, which is the relevant period in this
25 case. What was -- I'd like you to tell us the role of the

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2 different contributors to a comic book, the writer, the
3 artist, penciler, the inker, the colorist, the letterer.
4 What did each guy do, or woman, if there were any?
5 A. Well, somebody has to come up with the idea
6 for the script itself. Then it has to be written. So the
7 first thing that happens is you either get a script by the
8 writer, or, in my case, you'd get an outline saying what
9 the story is.
10 Then it would go to the penciler, who would
11 draw the script in pencil.
12 Then it would go to the letterer, who would
13 letter the dialogue balloons and the captions in ink over
14 the pencil drawings.
15 Q. Mm-hmm.
16 A. Then it would go to the inker, who would ink
17 the pencil drawings. So now the page had the lettering
18 and the artwork done in ink so that it could go to the
19 engraver, and he could photograph it or whatever he did
20 with it.
21 Then in those days we would get back from the
22 engraver some sheets of paper, eight by ten usually, that
23 were called silver prints. And there was a silver print
24 for each page. And they would go to the colorist, who
25 would use some kind of aniline dye paints, and they would

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2 color the pages, which were then sent back to the engraver
3 or the printer, I was never sure, but to tell that person
4 how we wanted it colored when it was printed.
5 The engraver and/or printer used those colored
6 sheets as a guide to -- so they would know how to color
7 the pages.
8 Q. Right, actually do the printing.
9 A. And that's -- I think that's all. There was
10 the writer, the penciler, the letterer, the inker, the
11 colorist. Of course we had proofreaders and sometimes we
12 would make changes. I, as the editor, would often look
13 over a page and say, I don't like this drawing, let's fix
14 it, or, let's make this a long shot, not a close up. Or,
15 you know, whatever I would do.
16 I didn't do that too much because it cost us
17 money, and it wasted time, so only when it had to be done.
18 Q. Now, were all these people working in the same
19 room?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How did that work?
22 A. No. Usually the production people were -- the
23 people who made the paste ups.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. But very often the artists worked at home. We

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2 did a lot of shipping things around. We would -- I would
3 talk on the phone or in person to the artist, giving -- or
4 I would type out an outline, depending how we worked. And
5 the artist usually went home and penciled it, bring it in
6 to me, I would approve it or not approve it, or have what
7 changes needed to be made.
8 Then I would send it to the inker. We very
9 rarely had an inker who was really on staff. At a
10 different address the inker would do it and ship it back
11 to me. And if I liked it, usually it was okay, it would
12 then go to a letterer.
13 Now, often the letterers were on staff, but we
14 also had a number of letterers who worked at home. In
15 fact, our main letterers, Sam Rosen and Artie Simick, they
16 both worked at home, so we had to ship the artwork again.
17 They would letter it, bring it back.
18 We had a colorist who worked on staff, but we
19 also had colorists who worked at home.
20 So again, it either was done on staff or we
21 shipped it. We were always moving and shipping things
22 back and forth.
23 Q. There was no FedEx back then.
24 A. No FedEx. No. It was very difficult. And we
25 had a small staff really in the office, usually one

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2 letterer who would make corrections on things. And
3 sometimes one of the people also did coloring. But mostly
4 everything was done freelance and shipped around the city.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned all the different books
6 involved, but you mentioned first somebody had to come up
7 with the idea.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Was that your role for the most part?
10 A. Pretty much. Yeah.
11 Q. And after you would come up with the idea, how
12 would you communicate that idea to the writer, or in some
13 cases you were the writer, but a different writer or the
14 artist?
15 A. Well, we would meet, and I would talk about
16 it, and I would usually have, well, often have something.
17 I'd write out a brief outline of what the idea was.
18 Q. A synopsis?
19 A. A synopsis. Or sometimes I would just talk it
20 with the artist. It really depended on how well I knew
21 the artist, how well we worked together, how familiar we
22 were with each other's style.
23 Q. Now, typically who came up with the ideas for
24 stories at Marvel during the 50s and 60s?
25 A. Well, in the 50s, in the early 50s, we were

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2 doing a lot of odd books. And very often the writers of
3 those odd books would come up with their own, although I
4 did most of them.
5 In the 60s, the ideas for the new characters
6 originated with me because that was my responsibility.
7 And what would happen is the publisher, Martin Goodman,
8 for example, with the Fantastic Four, he called me into
9 his office one day. And he said, "I understand that
10 National Comics," which later changed its name to DC, "but
11 I understand that National Comics has a book called The
12 Justice League. And it's selling very well. I want you
13 to come up with a team of superheroes. Let's do something
14 like that."
15 So it was my responsibility to come up with
16 such a team. And I dreamed up the Fantastic Four, and I
17 wrote a brief outline. And at that time, you know, I gave
18 that to Jack Kirby, who did a wonderful job on it.
19 With The Hulk and the X-Men and Iron Man, I
20 couldn't -- I wanted to use Jack for everything, but I
21 couldn't because he was just one guy. So with Iron Man I
22 gave that script to Don Heck after I came up with the
23 idea.
24 With Daredevil, I gave that to Bill Everett.
25 I think with Iron Man I still wanted Jack to

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2 do the cover, though, for it.
3 With Spider-Man, that was kind of an
4 interesting thing. I thought Spider-Man would be a good
5 strip, so I wanted Jack to do it. And I gave it to him.
6 And I said, Jack, now you always draw these characters so
7 heroically, but I don't want this guy to be too
8 heroic-looking. He's kind of a nebbishy guy.
9 Q. Would we call him a nerd today?
10 A. I would say so. Yeah.
11 Anyway, Jack, who glamorizes everything, even
12 though he tried to nerd him up, the guy looked still a
13 little bit too heroic for me. So I said: All right,
14 forget it, Jack. I will give it to somebody else.
15 Jack didn't care. He had so much to do.
16 Q. Who did you give it to?
17 A. I gave it to Steve Ditko. His style was
18 really more really what Spider-Man should have been. So
19 Steve did the Spider-Man thing. Although, again, I think
20 I had Jack sketch out a cover for it because I always had
21 a lot of confidence in Jack's covers.
22 Q. When the covers were done, were they done
23 before or after the actual work was created?
24 A. You know, I don't think there was a hard and
25 fast rule for that. I really can't remember. I think

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2 you'd have had to have done some of the work first, so in
3 doing the cover you knew what the characters looked like.
4 Q. And did you take particular interest in the
5 cover?
6 A. Oh, that was my specialty. The covers in
7 those days, the covers were the most important thing.
8 Because we didn't have fans the way we do now. Today,
9 fans go to a book store, Did the latest Fantastic Four
10 come in yet? In those days we sold according to how
11 attractive a book looked on the newsstand. A kid would
12 walk in the news stand, and whatever caught his eye he'd
13 pick up.
14 So we made sure -- and this was something that
15 my publisher Martin Goodman, he was an expert in. He
16 taught me a lot about what to do to a cover to make it
17 stand out, what kind of color schemes to use, and so
18 forth.
19 So I paid a lot of attention to covers. They
20 were very important.
21 Q. And you would make changes in covers?
22 A. Oh, sure.
23 Q. And you mentioned that you thought that Kirby
24 actually did the cover on Spider-Man. What was -- the
25 cover that he did was based on his original drawing or was

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2 it based on what Ditko had done?
3 A. Oh, it would have had to have been based, I
4 think, on what Ditko did because it would have to look
5 like the Spider-Man.
6 Q. The nerdy Spider-Man?
7 A. I would think so. Well, as Spider-Man he
8 didn't look nerdy. He looked nerdy as Peter Parker, yeah.
9 Q. Fair enough. Now, you mentioned that you
10 would have meetings from time to time, I guess, plotting
11 conferences. Do you recall -- and let me mark as -- we'll
12 mark actually two documents, although they're related, an
13 article that was written by a man by the name of Nat
14 Freedland in the New York Herald Tribune dated January
15 9th, 1966.
16 Do you recall the article? I'm going to show
17 you copies of it.
18 Let's mark this as Lee 3.
19 And Lee 4 --
22 A. I hate that article.
23 Q. I'm only going to ask you about one part of
24 it.
25 In the reprint there's a reference, and I will

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2 just read it into the record, that says that, "The
3 plotting conference at the end of this article was for
4 FF No. 55," FF would be the Fantastic Four?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. " -- No. 55 and issued just after the most
7 prolific period of new character creation on the series."
8 I want you to take a look at the end of this
9 article. Either one. Yeah, that's the one.
10 And specifically there is a paragraph that
11 begins right here, Mr. Lee (pointing), that starts.
12 Lee arrives at his plots in sort of ESP
13 sessions with the artists. He inserts the
14 dialogue after the picture layout comes in and
15 then it goes on. Here he is in action at a
16 weekly Friday morning summit meeting with Jack
17 "King" Kirby a veteran comic book artist, a man
18 who created many of the visions of your childhood
19 and mine.
20 Then it goes on for the next several
21 paragraphs just to describe the plotting conference. And
22 you can just take a quick look at that.
23 I want to just ask you whether, in fact, this
24 is consistent with your recollection of how typically
25 plotting conferences would be -- would go back in this

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2 period in the 1960s.
3 A. Well, pretty much, except this is written by
4 somebody who I don't know why but he must have taken a
5 very unfair dislike to Jack. And it is so derogatory.
6 It's just terrible the way he pictured Jack in this
7 article. I can't tell you how badly I felt.
8 At any rate, this is the way the conferences
9 went. Very often Jack would say more than "mm-hmm." You
10 know, he might contribute something or he might say,
11 "Stan, let's also do this or do that." I mean, we had
12 conversations.
13 But aside from that, yes, we would get
14 together. I would tell Jack the main idea that I wanted,
15 and then we would talk about it, and we'd come up with
16 something.
17 Q. And that was fairly typical of how a plotting
18 conference would go?
19 A. Yeah, in that sense. Yeah.
20 Q. Now, during the period of time that you've
21 been testifying about, did Marvel ever buy work that was
22 created by one of the writers or freelancers on spec as
23 opposed to having the material being part of an assignment
24 that you would give him?
25 A. Not that I remember. Excuse me. You know,

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2 they may have made deals I don't know about.
3 Q. I'm just asking --
4 A. But nothing that I remember. Right.
5 Q. -- in your recollection --
6 A. Right.
7 Q. -- having been there all that period of
8 time.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Now, when you would give out an assignment,
11 how did that work? Did you give them deadlines? How
12 did --
13 A. Yeah. Every strip had a deadline, because
14 these books had to go out every month. And it was very
15 important that the deadline be met. Because if a book was
16 late, we had already paid the printer for that press time.
17 And if the book wasn't delivered in time, we still had to
18 pay the printer. So it was a total loss to us. So the
19 deadlines were very important. And the artists always
20 knew this has to be delivered by thus-and-such a date.
21 Q. Now, in connection with the way that artists
22 and freelancers were paid, did they get paid whether or
23 not a particular book or comic was successful?
24 A. Oh, sure. They were paid before the book went
25 on sale. We didn't know how successful it would be. They

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2 were paid when they delivered the artwork.
3 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr.
4 Goodman about what his investment and his risk was in the
5 context of being the publisher?
6 A. Yeah. Once in a while -- I remember there was
7 one time some artists had wanted an increase in their page
8 rate, and they felt they weren't getting paid enough. And
9 Martin was in a pretty gloomy mood that day, and he said
10 to me.
11 You know what they don't realize? They
12 don't realize the risk that I'm taking. Because
13 if the books don't sell, it costs -- I lose a lot
14 of money. And I have no guarantee the books will
15 sell. And we have periods for month after month
16 after month where I'm losing money where the
17 books don't sell. But I don't cut their rate. I
18 don't fire them. I try to keep going as much as
19 possible.
20 And he gave me this whole thing from the
21 publisher's point of view.
22 Q. And did you understand that point of view?
23 A. Well, yeah, I could understand it from his
24 point of view. I could understand it. Yes. Just to add
25 to that, he said he was the fella taking all the risk.

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2 That's the thing that he stressed.
3 Q. Let me go back to the covers for a second.
4 Now, who typically designed the covers for the
5 comic books? How did that process work?
6 A. I usually, almost always, would say what I
7 wanted the cover to be. Sometimes I'd make a little
8 thumbnail sketch. I'm no great artist, but I would just
9 indicate where I wanted the character.
10 Because, as I said, we considered the covers
11 the most important part of the book. And I was very
12 careful about the covers. And I would say what the
13 illustration should be, where I wanted the caption, where
14 I wanted a blurb, how I wanted -- whether I wanted a
15 closeup or a long shot, whether I wanted it to be an
16 action scene or just a dramatic scene. That I spent a lot
17 of time on that.
18 Q. And after you'd give direction, were the
19 covers done before or after the pencils were complete?
20 A. It didn't -- it could have been either way.
21 Q. Either way. And did you ever reject a cover
22 and ask him to go back and redo it?
23 A. Oh, sure.
24 Q. Now, you mentioned also the practice was to
25 pay writers, artists, and the others inkers, and so forth

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2 on a per page basis. And they had different rates and so
3 forth.
4 During the period of time that you were there,
5 were writers or artists ever -- did they ever get
6 royalties from Marvel for the work they did or was it just
7 a per page?
8 A. While I was there I don't remember any
9 royalties.
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Is this a good time for a
11 break? We've been going for about an hour.
12 MR. QUINN: I think it's a very good time.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video at 10:29 a.m.
14 (Recess.)
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video at 10:38 a.m.
16 Q. BY MR. QUINN: We were discussing a number of
17 different items generally about the process that you
18 oversaw as editor back in the 50s and 60s. And now I want
19 to focus specifically on issues relating to Jack Kirby.
20 You're aware that this is a dispute with the
21 Kirby heirs?
22 A. (Nods head up and down.)
23 Q. You've got to say yes on the record.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When did you first meet Jack Kirby?

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2 A. Well, the first day that I came to work at
3 Timely Comics, which was either '39 or '40.
4 Q. And over the course of the years, what was
5 your relationship with Mr. Kirby?
6 A. Well, on my part it was very cordial. I was a
7 big fan of his from the beginning.
8 Q. Now I'm going to focus on the period of time
9 at issue in the 50s, and late 50s and early 60s. At what
10 point in time did Mr. Kirby come back to Marvel or Timely?
11 A. I don't remember the year, but there was a
12 time that he left, and he did some work for DC Comics, and
13 then he came back. Yes.
14 Q. And by the late 1950s he had returned?
15 A. The late 1950s -- 60s.
16 Q. Let me rephrase the question.
17 By 1960, he was back working at Marvel, in
18 that general area?
19 A. Maybe he left two times. Maybe he left in the
20 50s, and that's what you're referring to. He was back by
21 '60.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. That may be. Because I know there was a time
24 later in the 60s that he left and he came back, I think.
25 Q. Now focusing on the period when he was at

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2 Marvel in the 60s, what was Jack Kirby's role at Marvel?
3 A. The same as it had always -- wait a minute.
4 Did you say in the 50s?
5 Q. No, focusing on the 60s.
6 A. As far as I know, the same as it had always
7 been. He was our top artist, and I gave him what I
8 thought were our most important projects.
9 Q. And what was -- what were his job
10 responsibilities as an artist?
11 A. Well, to draw the strip as well and as excited
12 -- excitingly and grippingly as possible, and draw it in
13 such a way that the readers would want to see more, more,
14 more.
15 Q. And who had the right to direct and supervise
16 Mr. Kirby's work?
17 A. That was me.
18 Q. And who had the ability to edit and control
19 Kirby's work?
20 A. That was my job.
21 Q. And who decided which comic books and
22 characters Kirby would draw?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. And who gave him those assignments?
25 A. I did.

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2 Q. As best you can recall, did Mr. Kirby ever
3 submit work to you or to Marvel that he had done on spec?
4 A. Not that I remember.
5 Q. And you mentioned the situation with taking
6 him off the Spider-Man book. In addition to that, were
7 there other instances where you did edit Kirby's work?
8 A. Well, I edited everybody's work. I don't
9 remember taking him off anything else.
10 Q. Do you remember Mr. Kirby ever refusing to
11 make any of the edits or changes that you made?
12 A. As a matter of fact, no. Jack was really
13 great to work with.
14 Q. To your knowledge, during this period in the
15 60s, was Kirby working only for Marvel or was he doing
16 work for other comic books?
17 A. I thought he was working just for us.
18 Q. Now, typically, what was the work product
19 after you had given Kirby an assignment? What was the
20 work product that you would receive back from Kirby?
21 A. I would receive back usually, if the book was
22 20 pages long, I'd receive back 20 beautifully drawn pages
23 in pencil which told a story.
24 Q. And did Mr. Kirby ever suggest dialogue?
25 A. Not orally, but what he would do, when I would

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2 give Jack a rough idea for what the story should be, and
3 he went home and he drew it in his own way, laying it out
4 the way he thought it would be best, he would put in the
5 borders, the margins of the pages, he would put little
6 notes letting -- so I would understand what he was getting
7 at with each drawing, and he would sometimes put dialogue
8 suggestions also.
10 Q. Let me show you what I'm going to mark as I
11 believe it's Lee 5, a magazine entitled "Jack Kirby
12 Collection 54." And I just want to point you to some
13 portions of that.
14 THE REPORTER: Do you want me to put the
15 sticker actually on it?
16 MR. QUINN: Yeah, you can put it on.
17 MR. TOBEROFF: Can I have a copy, please?
18 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry.
20 Q. BY MR. QUINN: We tagged a particular section
21 that has a little blue tag on it. You can open to that.
22 See the little --
23 A. Oh, yes.
24 Q. And it's page 59 of this exhibit. And on the
25 top it talks about being fantastic penciling and the size.

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2 It says, "What would a Lee and Kirby issue be without the
3 Fantastic Four being heavily represented?" And then it
4 has a representation, I guess, of the penciling or the
5 drawing done by Kirby in the first instance.
6 Do you recognize the notes around the pages?
7 A. Well, that's Jack's handwriting. That's the
8 way he wrote them. Yes.
9 Q. And could you tell us, for example, in this
10 instance I see that there's a dialogue that's actually in
11 the different blocks. Tell us who did that dialogue. How
12 was the process done?
13 A. Well, I wrote the dialogue and the captions,
14 but Jack would give me notes. For example, in panel 4 of
15 that page, the next to the last panel --
16 Q. Right.
17 A. -- Jack wrote what he suggested the dialogue
18 might be. "I will rule. My years underground will end."
19 That was to let me know what he felt the fellow should be
20 doing or saying.
21 So I wrote, "My conquest will be complete. I,
22 the Mole Man, banished from my fellow men half a life time
23 ago, will return at last as Master of the Earth."
24 Very often I would write dialogue to fill up
25 spaces. In other words, I also indicated where the

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2 dialogue balloons and the captions should go on the
3 artwork. And I might not have written so much if he had
4 made the face bigger, but inasmuch as there was that space
5 on the upper right-hand part of the page, I put in more
6 dialogue to sort of dress up the -- balance the panel with
7 picture and dialogue. That was something else I had
8 mentioned but I concentrated very much on.
9 For example, in the panel above it, that panel
10 was an interesting panel, and I didn't want to -- I only
11 used three lines of caption. I didn't want to crowd that
12 with copy.
13 And the same with the first panel. There's so
14 much going on, that I only had a two-line caption that
15 only went part way across, because I wanted the reader to
16 enjoy looking at Jack's artwork with no interference.
17 Q. And who was it who decided where those --
18 where the dialogue would go?
19 A. I did. I always made the indications for the
20 letter -- before giving my strips to a letterer, I always
21 indicated in pencil after I typed out the dialogue where
22 the dialogue should go in the panel. And the sound
23 effects, also.
24 Q. And this was the typical way that you would
25 work with Mr. Kirby?

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2 A. With all the artists. Yeah.
3 Q. And who had the final say with regard to what
4 was going to be written in those panels?
5 A. Well, I was the editor. I did.
6 Q. So just looking at some of the other panels,
7 who -- let's go to the next page up on top in the second
8 panel.
9 A. Mm-hmm.
10 Q. Read me what Kirby had written in.
11 A. Let me see if I can make it out. "As it
12 leaves his hands, the staff's power blows and rocks" --
13 something -- back." I can't make out the word.
14 Q. Right. And what did you substitute for this?
15 A. Well, I thought it was so self-explanatory,
16 and design wise I felt a big sound effect would be good.
17 So I lettered in the word "batoom" (phonetic) for the
18 letterer. I did it in pencil so the letterer would follow
19 it, and I tried to make it part of the design of the
20 panel.
21 Q. Was that something that you typically did?
22 Let's look at another, the next page.
23 A. The next page?
24 Q. I'm sorry, two pages over which would be 62.
25 I see in the third panel --

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2 compare. Is that the same page that in Lee 6 in its final
3 version that is in --
4 A. Oh, it seems to be. Yes.
5 Q. With the same dialogue that you wrote in?
6 A. Mm-hmm.
7 Q. So this would be -- this --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Stan --
10 A. This is the way it looked printed.
11 Q. This is the way it came out to the public.
12 A. Right.
13 Q. That now includes the work of the inkers and
14 the colorists and all the other folks.
15 A. And the letterer.
16 Q. And the letterer. Now, as part of the way you
17 worked with Mr. Kirby and the assignments you gave, did
18 you ever ask Mr. Kirby to create new characters? Or did
19 he ever create new characters in the context of the work
20 and the assignment you gave him?
21 A. Well, he, in the context of the work, I would
22 give him the outline for the story. I might add, that as
23 we went on, and we had been working together for years,
24 the outlines I gave him were skimpier and skimpier. I
25 might say something like: In this story let's have Dr.

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2 Doom kidnap Sue Storm, and the Fantastic Four has to go
3 out and rescue them. And in the end, Dr. doom does this
4 and that. And that might have been all I would tell him
5 for a 20-page story.
6 Q. Dr. Doom --
7 A. Dr. Doom being the villain.
8 Q. The villain.
9 A. And Jack would just put in all the details and
10 everything. And then it was -- I enjoyed that. It was
11 like doing a crossword puzzle. I get the panels back, and
12 I have to put in the dialogue and make it all tie
13 together.
14 So we worked well together that way for years,
15 but, I'm sorry, I forgot what your question was.
16 Q. No, no, no. Whether during that period of
17 time was it part of his job to create new characters from
18 time to time?
19 A. Oh, that's why I mentioned.
20 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts. Go ahead.
21 Q. Go ahead.
22 A. That's why I mentioned that, because I might
23 give him a very skimpy outline like let Dr. Doom kidnap
24 Sue. Now, when he drew the strip, he might introduce a
25 lot of characters that he came up with in the story. He

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2 might have decide to have Dr. Doom send some giant robot
3 to get Sue Storm, and he would make up the robot. Or
4 there might be some other people. Sure, Jack would often
5 introduce a lot of new characters in the stories.
6 Q. And that was part of what his assignment was?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And did other artists do the same thing?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To your recollection, were there any
11 characters that Kirby had created before he was working
12 with you or anyone at Marvel that he brought to Marvel and
13 then were then published by Marvel?
14 A. No, I don't believe so. I don't recall any.
15 Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Captain America, for
16 God's sake. He and Joe Simon had created Captain America.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. Now, by the time in the 60s, Jack came to work
19 for us, we weren't -- there was no more Captain America.
20 We weren't publishing it because Martin Goodman thought it
21 was just a World War II character and people wouldn't be
22 interested in it anymore.
23 I always loved the character, so I decided to
24 bring it back. And I tried to write a story where he had
25 been frozen in a glacier for years, and they found him and

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2 he came back to life, and so forth. And I tried to give
3 him some personality where he always felt -- he was an
4 anachronism. He was living in our day, but yet he had the
5 values of 20 or 30 years ago. And I tried to make him a
6 little bit interesting.
7 And Jack would draw him. And Jack just drew
8 him so beautifully, and the stories worked out so well
9 that he became part of the Marvel superhero characters,
10 the one that I did not create. Yeah. And he's a great
11 character, and they'll be making movies of him soon.
12 Q. Other than Captain America, you can't remember
13 any --
14 A. No, I don't remember any others.
15 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Kirby ever shop a
16 character around to other publishers before bringing it to
17 Marvel?
18 A. Not that I know of.
19 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr.
20 Kirby as to who owned the rights to particular characters?
21 A. No. Again, not that I can recall.
22 Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Kirby was
23 aware of Marvel's policy that everything was work for
24 hire?
25 A. I took it for granted. We had never discussed

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2 it.
3 MR. TOBEROFF: Did you hear my objection?
4 THE REPORTER: No, I didn't. Sorry.
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Leading.
6 THE REPORTER: Thank you.
7 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Kirby ever try to
8 use a storyline or a character that he and you created
9 together for Marvel when he left Marvel and went to DC or
10 someplace else?
11 A. Did he take any stories we had done and use --
12 not that I know of.
13 Q. Now, we talked generally about how the
14 freelancers were paid. How was Mr. Kirby paid?
15 A. When he brought in -- like everybody else.
16 When he'd bring in his artwork, he'd hand in a voucher.
17 We had pre -- you know, pre-prepared voucher forms. And I
18 would, of course, okay the voucher, and it would go to the
19 Bookkeeping Department.
20 Q. Based on the number of pages?
21 A. Yeah, so much per page.
22 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Kirby ever receive
23 any royalties from Marvel?
24 A. Did he receive royalties?
25 Q. Royalties from Marvel.

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2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Now, you indicated that Kirby had left and
4 come back to Marvel at several different periods of time.
5 To your knowledge, when Mr. Kirby was working for other
6 comic book publishers, did he do some of his own writing?
7 A. I think so. I didn't really follow it, but I
8 think when he worked for DC that he may have written some
9 of the characters he created. But I don't know for sure.
10 Q. Do you know whether after he left Marvel he
11 had -- his characters had the same kind of success that
12 the characters that came about during the period of time
13 he was at Marvel?
14 A. Well, I don't think they became as successful
15 as the Marvel heroes, no.
16 Q. I want to focus specifically on the creation
17 of a number of the specific characters that -- we talked
18 about several, but I want to go into them in a little bit
19 more detail.
20 And let's start with the Fantastic Four. You
21 actually referenced them earlier. Tell me to the best you
22 can recall, how did the idea for the Fantastic Four come
23 about, and who they were, and what was the back story with
24 regard to the Fantastic Four.
25 A. Well, as I mentioned, Martin Goodman asked me

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2 to create a group of heroes because he found out that
3 National Comics had a group that was selling well. So I
4 went home, and I thought about it, and I -- I wanted to
5 make these different than the average comic book heroes.
6 I didn't want them to have a double -- a secret identity.
7 And I wanted to make it as realistic as
8 possible. Instead of them living in Gotham City or
9 Metropolis, I felt I will have them live in New York City.
10 And instead of the obligatory teenager Johnny Storm
11 driving a whiz bang V8, he would drive a Chevy Corvette.
12 I wanted everything real, and I wanted their
13 relationship to be real. Instead of a girl who didn't
14 know that the hero was really a superhero, not only did
15 she know who he was, but they were engaged to be married,
16 and she also had a superpower.
17 So, you know, things like that. And I thought
18 I would try that. So I wrote up a very brief synopsis
19 about that, and naturally I called Jack, because he was
20 our best artist, and I asked him if he would do it. He
21 seemed to like the idea. Took the synopsis, and he drew
22 the story and put in his own touches, which were
23 brilliant.
24 And it worked out beautifully. Books sold,
25 and that was the start of the Marvel success, you might

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2 say.
3 Q. And tell me or tell us all your thinking in
4 the creating the four different characters, Mr. Fantastic,
5 the Invisible Woman, the Human Torch, and The Thing.
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts.
7 A. I'm sorry?
9 A. Tell you what?
10 Q. Tell us what was your thinking with regard to
11 or the idea behind these specific four characters.
12 A. Well, I wanted them to be a team, but I wanted
13 them to act like real people. So they didn't always get
14 along well. I wanted one of them to be -- we called him
15 The Thing, to be kind of a very powerful ugly guy who
16 would be pathetic because -- they all got their
17 superpowers by being in a spaceship that was hit by cosmic
18 rays. And Mr. Fantastic got the ability to stretch his
19 limbs. The girl Sue Storm had the ability to become
20 invisible and surround herself with the force field. And
21 the boy Johnny Storm, her brother, was able to burst into
22 flame and fly.
23 I took that from an old Marvel book, one of
24 Timely Comics' first books called The Human Torch. I
25 always loved that character who had been an android, a

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2 robot or something. But I felt I'm going to give Johnny
3 Storm that power. He can fly and burst into flame.
4 So we had a guy who can stretch, a girl who
5 could be invisible, a man who was an ugly monster. And
6 again, to go against type, I thought I'd make the ugly
7 monster kind of a funny guy. He's pathetic, but he's also
8 the comedy relief. And he was always arguing and fighting
9 with The Human Torch, who was always trying to give him a
10 hot foot. And he was always trying to grab him and
11 throttle him.
12 They all loved each other, but they never got
13 along well. The more they fought amongst themselves, the
14 more the readers loved it. And that was the way I
15 envisioned them.
17 Q. Now I'm going to mark as Lee I believe it's 7,
18 the next exhibit.
19 A. There's no little blue thing.
20 Q. I'll get you there. It's a document that's
21 actually a magazine entitled "Alter Ego, the Comic Book
22 Artist Collection."
23 And are you familiar with the Alter Ego?
24 A. Oh, yes. It's a well known fanzine.
25 Q. And is a man by the name of Roy Thomas --

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2 A. Right.
3 Q. And then it says, Story No. 1, Introduction,
4 "Meet the Fantastic Four."
5 Is that the synopsis that you wrote back in
6 1961?
7 A. This is the original synopsis that I wrote,
8 and I gave it to Jack. And of course, after that we
9 discussed it, and we embellished it, and we made little
10 changes. But this was the beginning of it. Yeah.
11 Q. You mentioned in your note to Mr. Thomas that
12 you hadn't saved others because you didn't think anyone
13 would ever -- did you create other synopses from time to
14 time?
15 A. Oh, yeah.
16 Q. In the article on the first page, and I will
17 just read it to you, it says, Mr. Thomas writes,
18 "Actually, this wasn't the first early 60s synopsis of
19 Stan's I'd seen."
20 And it says, "See later part of the article.
21 And when I had gone to work for him in July 1965, I had
22 learned that he was increasingly dispensing with written
23 synopses with Marvel artists, often working merely from
24 brief conversations in person or over the phone."
25 A. That's right.

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2 MR. TOBEROFF: If I could just look at Stan's.
3 MR. QUINN: I will tell you. It's Volume 2
4 No. 2, the Summer of 1998.
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Thanks.
6 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Now looking at let's turn the
7 page over to page 34. And I'm going to read a portion of
8 the article that's quoting you. Mr. Thomas writes, "In
9 answer to my earlier query, Stan sent a few comments along
10 with the synopsis."
11 And then he quotes you, "Incidentally, I
12 didn't discuss it with Jack first," referring to the
13 synopsis. "I wrote it first after telling Jack it was for
14 him because I knew he was the best guy to draw it." And
15 you go on, "PS, as you are probably aware, the biggest
16 change that was made after the synopsis was written was I
17 decided to make the thing more sympathetic than originally
18 intended."
19 A. Right.
20 Q. After giving -- "After seeing the way Jack
21 drew him, I felt it was too obvious for such a ugly
22 monstrous looking guy to act in a typically monstrous,
23 menacing way."
24 Do you recall sending that note to Mr. Thomas?
25 A. Yes.

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2 Q. And what were you referring to?
3 A. Well, I was referring to what I mentioned
4 before. I would very often give a writer a synopsis or an
5 oral synopsis what I wanted, and then later when the story
6 was penciled, I would look at it and say, well, maybe we
7 should change this or maybe make this character a little
8 more that way. And as I mentioned with The Thing, when I
9 saw the way he looked, I thought it would be dull. We got
10 a guy who looks like a monster. If he just acts like a
11 monster, a dumb monster, it would be more interesting to
12 give him a real personality. And actually the guy -- some
13 of you were too young to know him, but I thought of Jimmy
14 Durante, an old comedian.
15 Q. Sadly, I'm not too young to know him.
16 A. I tried to have the thing talk a little like
17 Jimmy Durante, have that kind of an explosive personality.
18 So...
19 Q. The article on the next page, there's several
20 numbered paragraphs. And No. 5 talks about, and I will
21 just read it into the record:
22 Re the idea of Sue remaining permanently
23 invisible and having to wear a humanoid face mask
24 to be seen, well, Stan's note at the end of that
25 paragraph indicates that he was already

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2 rethinking that bit. He asked Jack to talk with
3 him about it because "maybe we'll change this
4 gimmick somewhat." Since the writer, editor, and
5 artist probably discussed this point before Jack
6 started drawing any number of other changes,
7 including the notion of starting with a
8 multi-page action sequence may have been
9 suggested, then, as well by either man. In any
10 event, Sue gained control of her invisibility
11 almost at once.
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. What were you referring to there?
14 A. Well, I think either Jack or I or both of us,
15 I don't know, must have thought at some point that she'd
16 always be invisible, and she'd have to wear a mask or
17 something so people would see her.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. And whether it was my idea or not, as I
20 thought about it, I thought, that's a lousy idea. So we
21 decided to change it where she could look like a normal
22 person and make herself invisible at will or make herself
23 normal at will.
24 Q. And who in this process had the ultimate
25 decision to decide how that was going to come about?

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2 A. Well, I did. I was the editor.
3 Q. And turning over to the next page of the
4 article, up on the actually the crossover page 37, there's
5 another document that's recreated that says, Synopsis for
6 Fantastic -- Synopsis for Fantastic Four No. 8 "Prisoners
7 of Puppetmaster."
8 Do you recognize that as another of the
9 synopses you created in connection with Fantastic Four?
10 A. I hadn't read that for so many years, but,
11 yeah, that seems to be mine. I didn't even know this was
12 in here. Wow. Yeah. See, instead of telling him page by
13 page, I would say, Devote five pages to this, five pages
14 to that, and three pages to that. Yeah.
15 Q. That was typical of how you were working
16 utilizing the Marvel method?
17 A. Yeah. Sometimes I wouldn't even be this
18 specific. And I wouldn't have cared if Jack devoted,
19 let's say, six pages to this and he changed that to three
20 pages. Just so he got the idea what I had this mind. But
21 he was good at making his own changes, and very often he'd
22 improve them. But, yeah, this is mine.
23 Q. Let's go to another character, The Silver
24 Surfer.
25 A. Oh, yeah.

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2 Q. Could you tell us how the Silver Surfer came
3 about?
4 A. Right. I wanted to have a villain called
5 Galactus. We had so many villains who were so powerful.
6 I was looking for somebody who would be more powerful than
7 any. So I figured somebody who is a demigod who rides
8 around in space and destroys planets.
9 I told Jack about it and told him how I wanted
10 the story to go generally. And Jack went home, and he
11 drew it. And he drew a wonderful version. But when I
12 looked at the artwork, I saw there was some nutty looking
13 naked guy on a flying surfboard.
14 And I said, "Who is this?"
15 And he said -- well, I don't remember whether
16 he called him the surfer or not. He may have called him
17 the surfer. But he said, "I thought that anybody as
18 powerful as Galactus who could destroy planets should have
19 somebody who goes ahead of him, a herald who finds the
20 planets for him. And I thought it would be good to have
21 that guy on a flying surfboard."
22 I said, "That's wonderful." I loved it. And
23 I decided to call him The Silver Surfer, which I thought
24 sounded dramatic.
25 But that was all. He was supposed to be a

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2 herald to find Galactus his planets. But the way Jack
3 drew him, he looked so noble and so interesting that I
4 said, "Jack, you know, we ought to really use this guy. I
5 like him."
6 And I tried to write his copy so that he was
7 very philosophical, and he was always commenting about the
8 state of the world and: Don't you human beings realize
9 you live in a paradise. Why don't you appreciate it? Why
10 do you fight each other and hate each other? And I had
11 him talking like that all the time. And the college kids
12 started to love him. And whenever I would lecture at a
13 college, and there was a question-and-answers period, it
14 was inevitably the Silver Surfer that they would talk
15 about the most. So I was very happy with him.
16 But that's how it happened accidentally. I
17 mean, I had nothing -- I didn't think of him. Jack -- it
18 was one of the characters Jack tossed into the strip. And
19 he drew him so beautifully that I felt we have to make him
20 an important character.
21 Q. And this is -- you talked about it before that
22 artists were expected as part of their job to populate the
23 story with characters?
24 MR. TOBEROFF: Misstates testimony.

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2 A. Pardon me?
4 A. Oh. You see, if there's a story where the
5 hero goes, let's say, to a nightclub, so I would say or
6 whoever the writer is would say the hero goes to a
7 nightclub, and he talks to this person, and then there's a
8 gun fight. Well, when the artist draws it, the artist has
9 to draw other people in the nightclub. So the artist is
10 always creating new characters. I mean, the artist might
11 decide to have the character standing at the bar and draw
12 a sexy-looking bartender, a female or an interesting
13 looking bartender.
14 The artist in every strip always creates new
15 characters to flesh out the strip and to make the
16 characters living in the real world. Sure.
17 Q. Who is it up to? Who had the last word as to
18 whether or not a particular character would make it into
19 the final publication?
20 A. Well, I guess I did, and my publisher Martin,
21 who might also look at a character and say, I like him,
22 let's see more of him, although he didn't do it that
23 often.
24 Q. Did he ever say I didn't like --
25 A. Yeah.

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2 Q. -- a particular character?
3 A. Yeah, mostly in Westerns. He was big on our
4 Western books. And sometimes he wouldn't like the way a
5 character was drawn.
6 Q. Let's talk a little bit about the Spider-Man.
7 How did the idea for Spider-Man come about?
8 A. Again, I was looking for -- Martin said,
9 "We're doing pretty good. Let's get some more
10 characters." So I was trying to think of something
11 different. And I have always hated teenage sidekicks, so
12 I felt it would be fun to do a teenager who isn't a
13 sidekick but who is the real hero. So that part was easy.
14 But then you had to -- the toughest thing is
15 dreaming up a superpower. So I thought, What superpower
16 can I give him? And it finally occurred to me, a guy who
17 could stick to walls like an insect, crawl on a wall and
18 stick to a ceiling. I didn't recall ever having seen any
19 character like that before. So I thought that's what I'll
20 do. I'm going to get a teenager who can crawl on walls.
21 But then the second most important thing is a
22 title. Titles are very -- the names of the characters are
23 very important. So I went down the list. Could I call
24 him Mosquito Man? insect Man? fly Man? And I got to
25 Spider-Man. It sounded dramatic. And I remember I had

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2 read a pulp magazine when I was a kid called Spider-Man.
3 The guy didn't have a superpower. He was just a guy who
4 went around fighting bad guys. But I thought Spider-Man
5 sounds great.
6 And again, I went to Jack. I think I told you
7 this before, but --
8 Q. It's okay.
9 A. I went to Jack and asked him to draw it, and
10 he did, but he didn't make the teenager look as wimpy or
11 as nerdy as I thought he should. And I realize that
12 really isn't Jack's style. Jack mostly draws glamorous
13 heroic Captain America type. Not that he couldn't have
14 but he would have had to force himself. So I figured I
15 will get somebody that it comes easy to.
16 And nobody, Jack nor I nor anybody, thought
17 that Spider-Man was going to be a big strip, so it didn't
18 matter. So I said, "Forget it, Jack. I will give it to
19 someone else." He said okay and he went back to Fantastic
20 Four or Thor or whatever he was drawing, and I gave it to
21 Steve Ditko. And Steve had that kind of awkward feeling.
22 It was just right for Spider-Man, so I gave it to Steve.
23 And that's what happened.
24 Q. Now, did you discuss the idea that you had for
25 Spider-Man with Mr. Goodman?

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2 spiders. Secondly, you can't make him a
3 teenager. Teenagers can just be sidekicks. And
4 finally, problems? Don't you know what a
5 superhero is? They don't have problems. They're
6 superheroes.
7 So I had a feeling I hadn't hit pay dirt with
8 that one as far as Martin was concerned, but I always
9 liked the idea. So sometime later we had a magazine we
10 were going to drop. It was called Amazing Fantasy.
11 Strangely enough, Steve Ditko had drawn all the stories in
12 that one, now that I remember. Anyway, it wasn't selling
13 well, and we were going to drop it.
14 Now, when you drop a magazine, nobody cares
15 what you put in the last issue because you're dropping it
16 anyway. So just to get it out of my system, that's when I
17 asked Jack to draw it. Then I asked Steve to draw it.
18 And we did a little, I don't know, 10- or 12-page story.
19 And we threw it in Amazing Fantasy in the last issue. And
20 just for fun, I put him on the cover.
21 And the book sold fantastically. So a couple
22 months later when the sales figures were in, Martin came
23 to me and he said, "Hey Stan, you remember that Spider-Man
24 idea of yours that we both liked so much? Why don't we
25 make a series of it."

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2 MR. TOBEROFF: Okay.
3 Q. BY MR. QUINN: In any event, let me go back to
4 something you testified about a little while ago when we
5 were talking about the process of where artists sometimes
6 create characters as part of the story. And you
7 mentioned, for example, the possibility of an artist
8 creating a lady bartender.
9 Whose job or whose responsibility, if it was
10 decided that this was really an interesting character, who
11 would be the one who would make the decision to take that
12 character and make him or her a separate character for a
13 new comic?
14 A. Well, either whoever is the Editor or the
15 Publisher.
16 Q. So at this period of time it would be you or
17 Mr. Goodman?
18 A. At that period it would have been me or
19 Martin.
20 Q. So, for example, with regard to the Silver
21 Surfer, who decided to essentially take the Silver Surfer
22 and make him a separate character?
23 A. Oh. Me.
24 Q. And why?
25 A. Why?

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2 Q. Why did you decide to do that?
3 A. Because I just thought he was such an
4 interesting looking and such a unique character. We had
5 never seen a guy on a flying surfboard who could travel
6 from planet to planet.
7 Q. And it was you who gave him the name Silver
8 Surfer?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Let's go now to the Incredible Hulk.
11 And could you tell us how The Incredible Hulk came about?
12 What was your idea for him?
13 A. Well, same thing. I was trying to -- it was
14 my job to come up with new characters and to expand the
15 line as much as I could. So I was trying to think again
16 what can I do that's different. I liked the thing very
17 much, and I thought, what if I get somebody who is a real
18 monster? And I remembered I had always in the old movie
19 Frankenstein with Boris Karloff I had always thought that
20 that monster was the good guy because he didn't want to
21 hurt anybody, but those idiots with torches who were
22 always chasing him up and down the hills.
23 Q. He was a misunderstood monster.
24 A. A mis -- you said it better than I could have.
25 So I thought it would be fun to get a monster

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2 who is really good but nobody knows it, and they fight
3 him. But then the more I thought about it, I figured it
4 could be dull after awhile just having people chasing a
5 monster. And I remember Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I
6 thought, why not treat him like Jekyll and Hyde? He's
7 really a normal man who can't help turning into a monster,
8 and it would make a very interesting story if when he
9 needs his monstrous strength the most, the poor guy turns
10 back into a normal man. I could get a lot of story
11 complications. So I thought that would be good.
12 I needed a name. Years ago I remember there
13 was a comic book called The Heap, H-E-A-P. I don't
14 remember even what he was, but I always thought that was
15 some real crazy name. And somehow or other I thought I
16 will call him The Hulk. It's a little like The Heap, and
17 it has that same feeling. But I love adjectives like the
18 Fantastic Four, the Uncanny so-and-so. So I decided I'll
19 call him The Incredible Hulk. And that's what happened.
20 Q. And how come The Hulk is green?
21 A. That's a long story. When I did the Fantastic
22 Four, we started getting a lot of fan mail. And the fan
23 -- remember, I told you I didn't want them to have
24 costumes. And the fan mail said, We love the book. It's
25 great. Oh, it's the best new thing we've seen. But if

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2 you don't give them costumes, we'll never buy another
3 issue. And I realize there's something unique about the
4 comic book reader. They love -- the superhero fan. They
5 love costumes.
6 Well, I couldn't figure out a way to give a
7 monster a costume. I couldn't see a monster, The Hulk,
8 walking into a costume store or making one for himself.
9 So I figured I'll do the next best thing. I'll give him a
10 different skin color. That will always look like a
11 costume.
12 You may not know this, but originally I made
13 him gray. I thought that a gray skin would look spooky
14 and scary and dramatic. But when the book was published,
15 the printer apparently had a problem with the color gray.
16 On one page he was light gray. On one page dark gray. On
17 one page black. On one page almost white. I said, This
18 will never do. So I decided on another color. See, you
19 can do that when you're a comic book editor. You can do
20 anything.
21 So I will change the color of his skin. So I
22 looked around for a color that wasn't being used. I
23 couldn't think of any green hero. I said, I will make him
24 green. And it turned out to be a good choice, because I
25 was able to come up with little sayings like, The Jolly

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2 Green Giant, or the Green Goliath, and so forth. And
3 that's how it happened. I could have thought of pink or
4 blue or any other color.
5 Q. Now, after you came up with the character, who
6 did you ask to draw the character?
7 A. My best guy, Jack Kirby.
8 Q. And do you remember giving Kirby directions as
9 to what you wanted with regard to what he was to draw?
10 A. I remember the first thing I said to him. I
11 said, Jack, you're going to think I'm crazy, but I want
12 you to draw a sympathetic monster. And he came up with
13 The Hulk.
14 Q. And did you, as part of that direction, give
15 him a back story and a story line?
16 A. Oh, yeah. We had to figure out how The Hulk
17 would be -- how he came to be The Hulk. So I decided he's
18 a scientist named Bruce Banner. And I'm not very
19 scientific. All I know are the names of things. I don't
20 really know how they work or anything. But I had used
21 cosmic rays for the Fantastic Four to get them their
22 powers. So I heard the expression "gamma ray" somewhere.
23 So I said let's let Bruce Banner be subjected to a gamma
24 ray, and that turns him into The Hulk. But it had to be
25 in a heroic way. So I said let's get a teenage -- they're

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2 doing a test for a new kind of gamma ray bomb somewhere.
3 The military is doing that. And some idiot teenager is
4 riding his bike past the no trespassing sign onto the test
5 area. And Bruce Banner in his cubicle sees the kid, and
6 he runs out to save the kid, say, "Get out of here.
7 There's going to be a gamma ray explosion."
8 But Bruce Banner had a rival scientist who was
9 jealous of him, and when the scientist sees Bruce Banner
10 run out, he says, "Quick. Start the explosion." And the
11 gamma ray explodes, and Bruce throws himself on top of the
12 kid to save the kid, and he gets subjected to the gamma
13 ray. That's how he becomes the Hulk, and that's how we
14 know he's really a hero at heart.
15 Q. And in creating and then coming up with the
16 back story, did you --
17 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts not in evidence.
18 Q. -- as The Hulk progressed, did you follow the
19 same process that you previously testified to in terms of
20 how you directed and edited The Hulk stories?
21 A. Yeah. Well, I told Jack essentially what I
22 told you. And he just drew it any way, you know, the best
23 way he could. And it turned out great.
24 Q. Let's talk a little -- let's talk about Iron
25 Man. Tell us about how Iron Man came about, how he was

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2 created, the back story with regard to Iron Man.
3 A. I will try to make it shorter. It was the
4 same type of thing. I was looking for somebody new. And
5 I thought -- I don't know why I thought it, somebody in a
6 suit of armor. And what if it was iron armor. He would
7 be so powerful. So for some reason I have always been
8 fascinated by Howard Hughes. I thought I would get a hero
9 like Howard Hughes.
10 He's an inventor. He's a multimillionaire.
11 He's good looking. He likes the women. And but I got to
12 make something tragic about him. And then it occurred to
13 me if he -- somehow when he got his iron armor -- it's a
14 long story -- but he gets into a fight, and he gets
15 injured in his chest. And his heart is injured, and he
16 has to wear this little thing that runs the iron armor.
17 He has to wear that on his chest because it also keeps his
18 heart beating. And that would make him a tragic figure as
19 well as the most powerful guy. So I thought the readers
20 would like him even more with that little bit added to it.
21 And that was it. Then again -- oh, but wait a
22 minute. This one wasn't Jack. I called Don Heck, and I
23 asked Don Heck because I think Jack was busy with
24 something else. That must have been what it was.
25 Q. Don Heck is another artist?

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2 A. He's another artist that we had who was pretty
3 good. And he drew the first Iron Man. I think I might
4 have given the cover to Jack to do. I don't remember who
5 did the cover. I think it might have been Jack.
6 Q. And in coming up with the back story, did you
7 include a love interest?
8 A. Oh, yeah. I forgot. I made up a name called
9 -- a girl who worked for the millionaire. I figured he
10 has -- I wanted him to be a playboy, so he has this
11 gorgeous assistant secretary named Pepper Pots. And he's
12 in love with her, and she's in love with him, but he won't
13 admit he's in love with her because he figures he could
14 die any minute with his bad heart. And he loves her too
15 much to make her a widow, and so he never admits to her
16 how he feels about her, which again is a little touch of
17 pathos for the series.
18 He also has a friend named Happy hogan, and it
19 goes on and on.
20 Q. Now, in addition to Don Heck, did your brother
21 Larry Lieber have a role in Iron Man?
22 A. Oh, yeah. I came up with the idea, but when
23 the script was -- when the strip was drawn, I didn't have
24 time to put in the copy. So I asked my brother Larry to
25 write it.

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2 Q. And this happened on other occasions where --
3 A. Yeah. There were times when I would ask Larry
4 to write something. Mm-hmm.
5 Q. Now let's talk --
6 A. Excuse me one second. I may have asked Larry
7 to write it in script form and then give it to Don to
8 draw. I'm not sure. I may have done that.
9 Q. Let's talk next about Thor.
10 A. Mm-hmm.
11 Q. And how Thor was created and what was your
12 idea behind Thor.
13 A. Same thing. I was looking for something
14 different and bigger than anything else. And I figured
15 what could be bigger than a god? Well, people were pretty
16 much into the Roman and the Greek gods by then, and I
17 thought the Norse gods might be good. And I liked the
18 sound of the name Thor and Asgaard and the Twilight of the
19 Gods' Ragnarok and all of that.
20 And Jack was very much into that, more so than
21 me. So when I told Jack about that, he was really
22 thrilled. And we got together, and we did Thor the same
23 way.
24 Q. And what was the idea behind Thor? What was
25 his deal?

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2 A. I wanted him to be --
3 MR. TOBEROFF: Excuse me. Objection. Vague
4 and ambiguous.
6 A. I wanted him to be the son of Odin, who is the
7 King of the Gods, like Jupiter. And I wanted him to have
8 an evil brother, Loki. And just like the Fantastic Four
9 were always fighting Dr. Doom, and Spider-Man was usually
10 fighting the Green Goblin, I figured Loki would be the big
11 villain. He's Thor's half brother. He's jealous of Thor.
12 He has enchantment powers. So in a way he's a good foe.
13 Thor has strength, but Loki is like a magician and can do
14 all kind of things. So that seemed good to me.
15 And then Thor had a girlfriend from legend
16 called Sif, S-I-F. And I would have her involved in the
17 stories and have jealousy.
18 And then I wanted some comedy relief, so it
19 wasn't -- I don't think it was until the strip had been
20 going for a while, but I decided there were three guys. I
21 called them The Warriors 3 that I wanted to include, a
22 very fat guy named Volstag, The Voluminous Volstag, I
23 called him, who acts like a real hero. "Come on, let's go
24 get them." But when the fights start, he's cowardly and
25 always holds back.

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2 Another guy like Errol Flynn called Fandral
3 the Dashing. And a guy like Charles Bronson in Death
4 Wish. I think I called him Hogan the Grim. And the three
5 of them, Fandral the Dashing, Hogan the Grim, and Volstag
6 the Voluminous I thought they could be Thor's friends, and
7 they would provide comedy relief. And I'm happy to see
8 they're using them in the movie, I think.
9 And it was something that we both enjoyed
10 doing very much. And Jack was wonderful with the costumes
11 that he gave them. I mean, nobody could have drawn
12 costumes like he gave them.
13 Q. The character Thor, how did -- what idea did
14 you have to come up to give him his powers?
15 A. Well, he had --
16 Q. What was the back story?
18 A. Oh, yeah. He had mainly a hammer, an
19 enchanted hammer. The back story was I decided to make
20 him a guy here on Earth, Dr. -- I forgot his name. But
21 whatever his name was, he was lame and he walked with a
22 cane. And for some reason he went to Norway, and there he
23 -- I think -- the Stone-Men from Saturn or somewhere.
24 Some aliens who were stone men had landed in Norway and
25 they wanted to kill our doctor.

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2 And he rushes into a cave somewhere to hide
3 from them. And they're coming toward him, but he sees a
4 hammer in the ground, and some kind of a sign that said --
5 I don't remember the exact wording, but, Whoever is worthy
6 would be able to lift this hammer, sort of like the King
7 Arthur legend. And he grabs the hammer, and he's able to
8 lift it up.
9 And it seems that destiny had prepared that
10 for him over the centuries. The minute it lifts it up, he
11 turns into The Thunder God Thor, and wielding the hammer
12 he takes care of the Stone-Men. And then he can always
13 become Dr. Don Blake. That was his name. I believe Don
14 Blake. If he hits the hammer on the ground, it turns back
15 into the cane that he always had because he was lame. He
16 walked with a cane as Don Blake, Dr. Don Blake.
17 So he's a surgeon, who walks with a cane, but
18 when he hits the cane on the ground, he turns into the
19 mighty Thor, God of Thunder. And that was the idea.
20 Q. You have a lot of doctors. Do you have any
21 lawyers in this whole process?
22 A. Maybe next time. Next go round. We do have a
23 lawyer Daredevil.
24 Q. Daredevil. Tell me about Daredevil.
25 A. Yeah. Same thing. Oh, by the way. I think

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2 Thor also was written by my brother. After I came up with
3 the outline, I think Larry wrote the first script.
4 Now, let me see. Daredevil.
5 Q. Daredevil. I want to hear about the lawyer.
6 A. Again I'm trying to think of what can I do
7 that hasn't been done. And it occurred to me --
8 Q. Well, certainly making a lawyer a hero would
9 fall into that category. But, in any event, go ahead.
10 Tell me about Daredevil.
11 A. After this is over, I want him to write for
12 us.
13 I figure I will get a blind man and make him a
14 hero. And how you do that. So I said, what if all his
15 other senses are very acute? What if he can hear so well
16 that he can tell if you're lying to him because he hears
17 your pulse rate speed up, your heart beat. And he can
18 smell so well he can tell if a girl has been in a room.
19 He could smell her cologne even if it was two days ago.
20 You know, you get your balance through your ears.
21 So he's like an acrobat, like a circus
22 tightrope walker. He can do anything any trained athlete
23 can do. And on and on. And I figured that's kind of
24 good. Oh, and he has a radar sense and a sonar sense. So
25 when he's Daredevil, nobody knows he's blind. He is like

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2 the greatest circus acrobat.
3 However, he has a law office. His name was
4 Murdock, Matt Murdock. And he had a friend named Foggy
5 Nelson. For some reason I called him Foggy. And they
6 have a law firm called Nelson and Murdock. And I have him
7 fighting villains who weren't too super. He didn't fight
8 monsters or anything. I tried to keep the strip a little
9 more realistic. But I loved the character.
10 And Jack was busy, and Steve Ditko was busy.
11 Everybody was busy, but there's an artist named Don Heck
12 -- not Don Heck, I'm sorry -- named Bill Everett who had
13 done one of the first strips that Martin Goodman ever had
14 when he started Timely Comics. And that was the
15 Sub-Mariner. And Bill was still around, and I called
16 Bill, and I said, "How would you like to draw Daredevil?
17 And he said, "Oh, great." So I gave him what I told you
18 essentially, little more because I forget who the villain
19 was in the first story. But whatever it was, that's what
20 I told him.
21 And he drew it, and I put in the copy. And
22 it's a shame Bill was ill or something. I don't know. He
23 couldn't do too many strips. He did one or two and then
24 that was the end of it.
25 Q. Keeping with our discussion, could you tell us

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2 about the creation of X-Men? How did that come about?
3 A. Again, Martin asked me for another team
4 because the Fantastic Four had been doing well. And again
5 I wanted to try something different. And I thought what
6 -- I could think of superpowers for them, but how do they
7 get their powers? I have already had cosmic rays and
8 gamma rays and bitten by a radioactive spider. What was
9 left?
10 So I took the cowardly way out. I said I'm
11 going to just say they were born that way. They're
12 mutants. Now I don't have to figure out gamma rays or
13 anything. So I decided to have a group of young mutants.
14 And I really, the more I thought about it, the more I
15 liked it. I said, they'll go to a school. They have to
16 keep their mutant powers secret, so it will just say a
17 School for Gifted Youngsters. Nobody will know it means
18 mutants.
19 And we'll get a professor who gets them
20 together. And this guy should also have mutant powers,
21 but I will make him have mental powers. He's got a brain.
22 He can send thought waves all around, and he can send his
23 thought waves around to detect where there's a kid with
24 mutant powers, and then he'll ask that kid to enroll in
25 his school. And again, so that he isn't too powerful, I

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2 thought I would make him in a wheelchair. He's the
3 professor.
4 Q. And what was his name?
5 A. Professor Xavier.
6 And then I thought of the characters. There
7 would be a girl who can do -- called Marvel Girl, who
8 could do crazy things, and a fella called The Beast, who
9 looks a little bit apelike. So to go against type, I made
10 him the smartest and the most articulate of all of them.
11 And a guy named The Angel with wings, and so forth.
12 And when I went to tell the idea to Martin
13 Goodman, I said -- he loved it, but I said, "I want to
14 call it The Mutants."
15 He said, "That's a terrible name. Nobody
16 knows what the word "mutants" means." So I went back, and
17 I thought about it. And I thought Professor X, Xavier.
18 And the mutants have extra powers. For some reason I
19 thought I could call them the X-Men. So I went back to
20 Martin. He said, "Oh, that's a good name." And as I
21 walked out, I thought, if nobody knows what a mutant is,
22 how were they going to know what an X-Man is? But I had
23 my name, so I wasn't about to make waves.
24 Q. And you gave the -- this --
25 A. Oh, yeah, luckily --

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2 Q. -- idea to Kirby?
3 A. Luckily, Jack was free at the time. And
4 again, he did a wonderful job.
5 Q. Did you, again, with X-Men follow the same
6 pattern you testified before, using the Marvel method?
7 A. Yeah. I spoke to him. I don't even think I
8 wrote anything. I think we talked about it. And he was
9 on absolutely the same wave length. He saw it the way I
10 did. So I said, "Go on and draw it." And he did, and it
11 came out great. And I wrote the copy, and it became one
12 of our best-selling strips.
13 Q. Next Nick Fury. Tell us about Nick Fury.
14 A. Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. There was a
15 television series called The Man from U.N.C.L.E. that I
16 used to watch and I liked it. And I thought it would be
17 fun to get something like that as a comic book.
18 So I remembered we had done a war series
19 called Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos, Stories of
20 World War II. And it was quite popular. I don't really
21 like war stories, so after a few years of doing it I asked
22 Martin if we could drop the book so we could concentrate
23 on superheroes. And he said okay. But we got a lot of
24 fan mail. The kids loved the characters. And we kept
25 reprinting those books, and they sold as well as the

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2 originals.
3 So when I wanted to do the thing like The Man
4 from U.N.C.L.E., I thought why don't I take that popular
5 Sgt. fury that was years ago in World War II, why don't I
6 say he's older now and he's a colonel, and he's in charge
7 of this new outfit that I made up, S.H.I.E.L.D, which
8 stood for the Supreme Headquarters International Law
9 Enforcement Division. So I took Sgt. Fury, who now has a
10 patch over one eye, and made him in charge of this group.
11 And again, there was Jack Kirby. I said, "How
12 would you like to draw Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
13 And it was right up Jack's alley. He loves that kind of
14 stuff. And he came up with all kind of weapons and
15 things.
16 Q. And again, you had the same process of
17 overseeing and editing it?
18 A. Yeah. It was always the same process.
19 Q. Let's focus on The Avengers. How did The
20 Avengers come about? First, tell us who The Avengers are.
21 A. Well, they're anybody that we wanted to put in
22 the group of our own heroes. I don't even remember who
23 they were in the first issue. It might have been Iron
24 Man, Captain America, Thor, Daredevil. I don't even
25 remember because we kept changing the roster each month,

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2 whoever we felt like.
3 But the idea was that they were organized by
4 -- I don't remember which of our heroes organized. Oh,
5 they got together and decided to become a fighting team.
6 Again we wanted something like The Justice League that DC
7 had.
8 Q. Had you discussed the idea for The Avengers
9 with Martin Goodman?
10 A. Oh, sure. Oh, sure. I couldn't do any book
11 unless Martin approved of it. And I remember Iron Man who
12 was the rich one. I had them use Iron Man's mansion on
13 Fifth Avenue as The Avengers' headquarters, and Captain
14 America was definitely an Avenger. Iron Man. And
15 Spider-Man never joined them; he was a loaner.
16 But then I would have them -- the toughest
17 thing about The Avengers, they were also powerful that we
18 had to find very powerful villains for them to fight. And
19 again, you know, Jack drew it, and it turned out to be
20 popular. They're going to make a movie of that, too.
21 Q. You needed to have very powerful villains to
22 make it a fair fight.
23 A. Oh, sure. In fact, it's always best if the
24 villain -- if it isn't a fair fight; if the villains seem
25 even more powerful, because then you wonder how will the

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2 hero ever get out of this one.
3 Q. And who came up with the back story for The
4 Avengers?
5 A. There really wasn't much back story. I did,
6 but just the idea that they all get together and form a
7 group. Because I didn't have to create new characters.
8 We had them. I just needed an excuse for them to get
9 together. And honestly I forget what the excuse was now.
10 Q. Let's talk a little bit about one of my
11 favorites, Ant-Man. Tell us a little bit about why you
12 came up with and how you came up with Ant-Man.
14 Q. Who created Ant-Man?
15 A. What could I do that was different? I didn't
16 know of any hero that was that big (indicating). So I
17 thought, I'll go for it. Martin okayed it. And I don't
18 remember if Jack did the first one or not. Maybe he did
19 or you wouldn't be mentioning it.
20 You know, it was just -- it was not all that
21 successful. And I later realized why it wasn't that
22 successful. The interesting thing about a character who
23 is that big (indicating), would be to show him against a
24 lot of big things. But somehow no matter which artist
25 drew him, they always made him look life size. They put

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2 him in the foreground. So you didn't enjoy the contrast
3 of this little guy next to big -- you know, if they had
4 him near a cigarette in an ashtray, but they always had
5 him somehow where he didn't look like Ant-Man.
6 Anyway, I hate to give up. So at some point I
7 changed him to Giant-Man. He had the ability to become a
8 giant.
9 Q. The ant could become a giant?
10 A. Yeah. And that didn't become too popular
11 either, although he's still running somewhere in the
12 books.
13 Q. Who came up with the idea of making -- having
14 Ant Man become Giant-Man?
15 A. I'm embarrassed to say it was me.
16 MR. QUINN: Let's go off the record for a
17 second.
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video at 12:05 p.m.
19 (Recess.)
20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video at 12:06 p.m.
21 Q. Just to clarify, because we may have been
22 talking over each other. Who was it who came up with the
23 idea for Ant-Man?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Okay. One more we can talk about right now is

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2 the raw hide kid tell us about The Rawhide Kid.
3 A. I don't really know what to tell you. Martin,
4 the publisher, he loved Westerns. And we had a lot of
5 Western books, and he loved the name The Kid. We had Kid
6 called Outlaw, The Rawhide Kid, The Texas Kid. We had a
7 few others I can't remember. He loved that word. And the
8 Rawhide Kid was just one of the many Westerns we had.
9 And I, as far as I know, my brother had been
10 doing most of them. He was writing and drawing them. I
11 don't remember who started it. Maybe it was Jack that I
12 did it with first. I probably wrote the first one.
13 But it was just -- I don't even remember.
14 Maybe he was somebody wanted by the law, but he was really
15 a good guy, and nobody knew it and he just rode around The
16 West having adventures.
17 We didn't put a lot of thought into our
18 Westerns, really. They were all pretty much alike, just a
19 guy who is the fastest gun in the west, and he fights bad
20 guys.
21 Q. And with The Rawhide Kid, you followed the
22 same practice of making the assignment and then overseeing
23 it and editing it?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Switching to another subject. Do you recall

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2 that sometime back in 2002 and 2003 you had a dispute with
3 Marvel?
4 A. Oh, yes.
5 Q. And what was that dispute about?
6 A. Well, according to my contract, I was supposed
7 to get 10% of the profits of -- Marvel's profits from the
8 movies and television and things like that. And I felt I
9 hadn't been getting it.
10 Q. Did during the course of that dispute did you
11 ever say that you owned the characters and not Marvel?
12 A. No, that wasn't part of the dispute.
13 Q. And from your perspective, who did you believe
14 owned the characters?
15 A. Say that again.
16 Q. Who did you believe owned the characters?
17 A. I always felt the company did.
18 Q. Now, do you recall during the course of that
19 dispute that my nice friend, Mr. Fleischer over there,
20 took your deposition?
21 A. I don't recall it, but I take your word for
22 it. Somebody took it. I don't remember who.
23 Q. I'm going to show you a portion of that
24 deposition --
25 A. All right.

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2 Q. And when Mr. Kirby said in that interview we
3 just heard that "The editor always has the last word on
4 that," is that -- you agree with that?
5 A. Was he referring to the question, Would
6 success spoiled Spider-Man?
7 Q. No, he was referring to whether Captain
8 America was going to be sent to Viet Nam.
9 A. I didn't hear that. Well, yes. I -- if
10 Captain America had been in this country, and one of the
11 writers decided, hey, I think I'd like to send him to Viet
12 Nam and let him be part of the Vietnamese war or whatever,
13 then I would have had to say okay. Or I might have said
14 to the writer, no, I'd rather keep him here.
15 Q. So you agree with Mr. Kirby that the editor
16 always has the last word on that?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. TOBEROFF: Counsel, are you going to be
19 providing me at this deposition with a copy of these
20 excerpts?
21 MR. QUINN: You have a copy of the excerpts in
22 your hand.
23 MR. TOBEROFF: They're all --
24 MR. QUINN: We're going to listen to them all
25 together.

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2 placed and where the captions go. And then the
3 script goes to the inker. It's lettered, of
4 course. And I have it proofread and that's it.
5 I proofread it myself really if it's my own
6 story.
7
8 THE WITNESS: Wow.
9 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Is that consistent -- that's
10 your voice, isn't it?
11 A. What I could hear sounded right, the dialogue
12 and the captions. And it goes to the -- yeah, that was
13 me.
14 Q. And that was the method you used?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Let's go to the next excerpt, this one from
17 the archives is marked as NYU-TV and dated March 16th,
18 1972.
19 (Audio recording playing. Reported as
20 follows:)
21
22 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Good morning. I
23 wonder if you could tell us who you are and what
24 you do, for people that don't know.
25 STAN LEE: My name is Stan Lee, and I

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2 produce comic books. There are 50 million
3 reasons why we change artists. Sometimes we do
4 it because the book isn't selling well to hype up
5 sales. Sometimes we do it because an artist is
6 simply tired of the job. He says, if you don't
7 take me off this thing, I will go out of my
8 skull, and I want to do something else.
9 Sometimes we do it it's like falling
10 dominos. An artist is late or is sick, and his
11 book is late, so we have to take an artist off
12 this strip to do that book quickly to make the
13 printing date. So we have to take another artist
14 off this book to do this book which this artist
15 came off. Now we have to take an artist off this
16 book to do this book, and it goes right down the
17 line.
18
19 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Again, is that your voice we
20 just heard?
21 A. Yeah, that was definitely me.
22 Q. And is that consistent with your recollection
23 as to how you dealt with artists during that period of
24 time?
25 A. Well, I caught the falling dominos part. I

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2 really couldn't understand what came ahead of it, but the
3 falling dominos was correct.
4 Q. And what do you recollect about the falling
5 dominos?
6 A. Well, it was like if an artist couldn't do one
7 book, you had to take another artist and give him that
8 book, but then that artist had to be replaced on his book
9 by another artist. And you had to keep shuffling them
10 around.
11 Q. And who was in charge of shuffling them
12 around?
13 A. Well, I was.
14 Q. Now we have a video. This one is dated --
15 A. That might be easier to hear.
16 Q. We can hope. This one is dated from January
17 12th, 2000. And according to the archives in Wyoming,
18 University of Wyoming, it is an interview video that was
19 done and distributed by the, I guess, Disney Feature
20 Animation.
21 Why don't we play this one.
22 (Video recording playing. Reported as
23 follows:)
24
25 STAN LEE: Years later, Jack came back. I

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2 Q. Those three you have no clear recollection
3 of --
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. -- one way or the other?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. The question I have for you really is very
8 simple. You testified at some length over the last few
9 hours about the manner in which characters were created at
10 Marvel.
11 A. Mm-hmm.
12 Q. And was that same method used in connection
13 with the creation of the characters that are set forth on
14 Schedule A?
15 A. I'm sorry, would you say the last part of
16 that?
17 Q. Was the same method used in the creation of
18 the characters that are set forth on Schedule A?
19 A. Oh, yeah. Sure.
20 Q. It was the same kind of method?
21 A. Right.
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Are you referring to the Marvel
23 method?
24 MR. QUINN: The methodology that he's
25 testified to over the last several hours is what I'm

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1 So I tried to write these -- knowing Jack
2 would read them, I tried to write them to make it look
3 as if he and I were just doing everything together, to
4 make him feel good. And we were doing it together.
5 But with something like Galactus, it was me
6 who said, "I want to do a demigod. I want to call him
7 Galactus."
8 Jack said it was a great idea, and he drew a
9 wonderful one and he did a great job on it. But in
10 writing the book, I wanted to make it look as if we did
11 it together. So I said we were both thinking about it,
12 and we came up with Galactus.
13 I didn't know it would be a subject of a court
14 case later and that everything had to be precise. But
15 I've written a lot of things, that you do it for the
16 image. Everything I did was for image. I didn't lie,
17 but I tried to make the artists look good. I tried to
18 make the inkers look good.
19 Whenever I wrote about them, I wrote that they
20 were the great -- one great example is the bullpen. We
21 didn't have a bullpen. We had one lousy big room with
22 a production person and two letterers in my office next
23 to it.
24 But in my columns, I said, "You should see the
25 Marvel bullpen. There's Jack and there's John Romita."
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1 A. Oh, no. That sounds like me.
2 Q. And when did Jack leave Marvel?
3 A. I don't know. I don't know the year. I'm
4 sure it's easy to find out. I just don't know.
5 Q. And why did Jack leave Marvel?
6 A. I think he was dissatisfied with something or
7 thought he'd make more money somewhere else or felt he
8 wasn't getting enough credit. I don't know.
9 Q. You don't know what he was dissatisfied with?
10 A. Not really. He never told me. He may have
11 just been tired of having his name always linked with
12 mine. Because when he went to DC, he did things on his
13 own. He wrote and he illustrated his own books. So
14 that may have been what he wanted to do.
15 MR. QUINN: Again, don't speculate. If you
16 don't know, you don't know.
17 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
18 MR. TOBEROFF: I'd like to mark as Exhibit 44
19 excerpts from David Anthony Kraft's Comics Interview,
20 Magazine Number 85, which is published in 1990.
21 (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit Number
22 LEE 44 was marked for identification.)
23 BY MR. TOBEROFF:
24 Q. Please turn to Page 83, and go to the first
25 column on Page 83, about halfway down the page -- a
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1 little more than halfway down the page.
2 You're quoted as saying, "You know, very
3 often, in fact, most of the time after we got started,
4 the artist did most of the plotting. I would just give
5 him a one-liner, like, 'Let's feature Dr. Doom and he
6 goes back in time' or something. And whoever the
7 artist was, he'd practically do the whole story. But
8 when I would get the artwork back, and I had to put the
9 copy in, very often there were things that I thought
10 didn't work or were foolish or didn't make sense or
11 something.
12 "Instead of having the artist redraw and go
13 through a lot of trouble, the thing that was the most
14 fun for me was to find out how I could take that
15 discordant element in the story and make it seem as if
16 we purposefully did that to embellish the story. You
17 know what I mean? And turn it into a good story point.
18 It was like doing a crossword puzzle."
19 Do you have any reason to believe you didn't
20 say that?
21 A. No. I'm proud of that. That was pretty
22 clever.
23 Q. And does that accurately describe a successful
24 Marvel method?
25 A. Yes. With some artists. Some artists I had
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1 EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. QUINN:
3 Q. You recall that Mr. Toberoff asked you some
4 questions in connection with Spider-Man, and there was
5 some testimony that you gave regarding the fact that
6 you -- the original pages that Kirby had drawn --
7 Mr. Kirby had drawn with regard to Spider-Man, that you
8 had rejected them?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And you decided to use Ditko, Steve Ditko,
11 instead?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Did Mr. Kirby get paid for those rejected
14 pages?
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. And did you have a practice at that time with
17 regard to paying artists even when the pages were
18 rejected by you or required large changes?
19 A. Any artists that drew anything that I had
20 asked him or her to draw at my behest, I paid them for
21 it. If it wasn't good, we wouldn't use it. But I
22 asked them to draw it, so I did pay them.
23 Q. I'm going to jump around a little bit.
24 A. You have some filing system.
25 Q. I do.
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1 You embellished on that already, so I don't
2 need that. You can save that one.
3 You were asked some questions about an
4 interview you gave, which is recorded in Lee
5 Exhibit 37. And specifically you had stated in that
6 interview with regard to Kirby that "he was incredibly
7 imaginative and he did his most important writing with
8 his drawing. When I say that, I mean that if -- that
9 if I gave Jack a very brief idea of what I wanted for a
10 story, he would run with it"?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And was there ever a circumstance where Jack,
13 on his own, came up with a character, or was it always
14 a circumstance that, however brief your discussion with
15 him was, it came before he actually drew anything?
16 A. Oh, no. In the process of drawing the strip,
17 issue after issue after issue, he would occasionally
18 come up with a new character. Sure. All the artists
19 did.
20 Q. With regard to the creation of the characters
21 in question here which you testified about, did the
22 ideas come from Mr. Kirby, or were you the one who came
23 up with the ideas for these characters?
24 A. You mean --
25 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. Leading.
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1 BY MR. QUINN:
3 A. Positions are reversed.
4 Yes, I was referring -- when -- I forgot the
5 question. I'm sorry.
6 MR. QUINN: Okay. Read the question back.
7 Q. Listen to it carefully.
8 A. Okay.
9 (Record read as follows:
10 "Q With regard to the creation of the
11 characters in question here which you
12 testified about, did the ideas come from
13 Mr. Kirby, or were you the one who came up
14 with the ideas for these characters?")
15 MR. TOBEROFF: Well. Objection as to form.
16 THE WITNESS: I came up with the original
17 concept of the character, and then I would discuss it
18 with Kirby or Ditko or whoever it was.
19 BY MR. QUINN:
20 Q. So that would be true of The Mighty Thor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And Spider-Man?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So if Mr. Kirby were to say, or somebody on
25 his behalf were to say, that he created the idea of
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1 Spider-Man and came to you with it, would that be right
2 or wrong?
3 A. No. That's wrong.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Toberoff showed you an interview from
5 WBIA radio in March of 1967 in which he showed you an
6 excerpt from what some of the -- one thing you said,
7 but he didn't show you what followed directly after
8 that. And let me read to you what followed directly
9 after that in Stan Lee Number 36.
10 This is the questioner, and this time it is
11 JK, that would be Jack Kirby, talking. And this is in
12 the context of Thor.
13 He says, "Well, not homework in the sense I
14 went home one night and I really concentrated on it.
15 All through the years, certainly, I've had a kind of
16 affection for any mythological type of character and my
17 conception of what they should look like."
18 And then he says, "And here, Stan gave me the
19 opportunity to draw one."
20 Stan would be you?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. And then he says, "And I wasn't going to draw
23 back from letting myself go."
24 Is that consistent with your recollection that
25 it was you who gave Mr. Kirby the opportunity to draw
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1 Q. So that's not a reference to the creation of
2 the characters?
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 BY MR. QUINN:
6 Q. And looking at Lee Number 34, "Son of
7 Origins," that you wrote, Mr. Toberoff asked you some
8 questions about something you wrote on Page 14, but he
9 left out this part, where you wrote, speaking of, I
10 believe, the X-Men, "No sooner did I discuss the basic
11 premise with Jack, than we were off and running."
12 Is that consistent with your recollection that
13 before Jack did any drawing, you gave him the basic
14 premise?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 BY MR. QUINN:
18 Q. Did Mr. Kirby ever begin work on a book
19 published by Marvel before you had assigned him that
20 work?
21 A. No.
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague.
25 THE WITNESS: At least mine are one-word
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1 answers now.
2 BY MR. QUINN:
3 Q. By the way, I think you -- there was some
4 questioning about a man by the name of Sal Brodsky.
5 Do you remember Mr. Brodsky?
6 A. Yes.
7 (Reporter clarification.)
8 MR. QUINN: Brodsky, B-R-O-D-S-K-Y. Sal.
9 BY MR. QUINN:
10 Q. Did Sal Brodsky decide either whether or how
11 much people were going to get paid -- people being
12 artists were going to get paid?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Whose job was it to decide whether they would
15 be paid and how much?
16 A. Mine. And, of course, Martin Goodman's,
17 whenever he bothered.
18 Q. Did Mr. Kirby bring you sketches of The
19 Fantastic Four before you and he had talked about doing
20 The Fantastic Four?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And was part of your job at Marvel, when you
23 were editor in chief, to set deadlines for the artists?
24 A. Always.
25 Q. How did that work?
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1 A. Oh, I received a schedule from somebody in the
2 company whose job that was, who worked with the
3 printer, when the printer would need each book.
4 Then it was up to me to figure out who should
5 write it, who should draw it and give them enough time
6 so that I would get the completed book in time to send
7 it to the printer.
8 So, for example, if I had a book that was due
9 quickly, I would give it to Jack, who was very fast. I
10 wouldn't give it to another artist who was slower. And
11 it was always a matter of production and deadlines.
12 Q. I'm not going to go over testimony you've
13 given in the prior deposition, but I do have one
14 question.
15 To your knowledge, was anything in The
16 Fantastic Four based on a previous work by Kirby called
17 "Challenges of the Unknown"?
18 A. No. I had never -- to this day I've never
19 read "Challenges of the Unknown," and I really know
20 nothing about it, except that there is or was a book of
21 that title.
22 Q. And to your knowledge, was the idea for
23 Spider-Man something that Kirby brought to you based on
24 his previous work on something called "The Fly"?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Now, when you -- when you were serving as an
2 editor at Marvel, in the period 1958 to 1963, you were
3 paid a salary as an editor?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And how were you paid for your work as a
6 writer on the comics?
7 A. I was paid on a freelance basis, like any
8 freelance writer.
9 Q. And does that mean you were paid by the page?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And was it your belief that because Marvel had
12 bought that work from you, that they owned all right,
13 title and interest in the work?
14 A. Yes, I did believe that.
15 MR. TOBEROFF: I'm done.
16 MR. QUINN: Okay. I have nothing further.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: You may leave, Mr. Lee.
18 THE COURT REPORTER: No stipulation, then?
19 It's Code?
20 MR. TOBEROFF: In California, we do a
21 stipulation.
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Mr. Lee, leave. We're
23 finished.
24 MR. FLEISHCHER: Why don't we go off the
25 record, Marc, and tell us what stipulation you want to
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4

MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC. and )
) No. 10-141-CMKF
7 Plaintiffs, )
)
8 vs. )
)
KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY and )
10 SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
)
11 Defendants. )
-----------------------------)
12
13
14
15
16
17 CONFIDENTIAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

18 JOHN V. ROMITA
19 Garden City, New York
20 Thursday, October 21, 2010
21
22
23 Reported by:
24 KRISTIN KOCH, RPR, RMR, CRR, CLR
25 JOB NO. 34124
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1 Romita - Confidential
2 A. Freelancer. No -- flying without a
3 parachute. Absolutely no security. No
4 unemployment insurance, because I didn't have a
5 job. No perks, no medical insurance, no
6 nothing. Every year I would save 2- or $300
7 and then the government would raise the
8 unemployed -- the -- I forget what the tax was.
9 There was a tax that was applicable to
10 freelance people, and that tax went up just
11 about whatever I had saved, so I generally
12 broke even every year.
13 Q. And how were you paid? What was the
14 basis for your compensation?
15 A. I would do a certain amount of pages
16 at a certain rate, $25 a page, $30 a page. I
17 would do ten pages, $300. I would sign a
18 voucher for $300 worth of work and they would
19 pay me two weeks later or something. And I
20 would be responsible for the taxes. I don't
21 believe they took the taxes out. I'm not sure.
22 Q. Where did you do your work? Did you
23 do it in the Marvel office?
24 A. No. I worked home.
25 Q. Did you ever go into the Marvel
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2 offices?
3 A. Only to deliver the work, and
4 occasionally have to stay in the bullpen where
5 there was tables, other people doing production
6 work, I would do corrections that Stan would
7 demand. If he didn't like a certain look or a
8 certain line, I would change things. That was
9 common.
10 Q. How -- can you describe briefly what
11 the process was for creating a comic book in
12 the 1950s?
13 A. It was a shooting script similar to
14 a film shooting script. It was a script with a
15 title and a certain amount of pages allocated
16 and they would say page 1, panel 1, the man
17 walks through the door of the building and
18 tells people "good morning everyone," that kind
19 of thing. There are three people in the room.
20 They give you -- they gave you directions on
21 what is appearing. Then they had a caption at
22 the top nine times out of ten which said "early
23 one morning," something like that, "next day,"
24 and then there were balloons to the characters.
25 So I would have to decide on the size of the
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2 panels, depending on what was going on, where
3 to place the captions and the balloons to the
4 people, the dialogue balloons, and allocate the
5 space for the illustration to explain what was
6 happening in the story, to describe it.
7 Q. Do you know who wrote those scripts?
8 A. There was maybe a half a dozen
9 writers working for Stan at the time. There
10 were western writers, there were mystery
11 writers, there were war stories, romance. So I
12 remember three or four names vaguely.
13 Bernstein and -- I don't remember most of them.
14 Most of the stories I did Stan Lee would write.
15 Q. Who decided which artist got which
16 scripts?
17 A. Stan Lee. He was the editor in
18 chief. He was the editor and only writer on
19 staff. The rest were -- all these other
20 writers were freelancers, like myself. They
21 were home working, Connecticut, Carolina,
22 California, wherever they were. So everybody
23 was working at home except for Stan and a
24 production manager, which was Sol Brodsky at
25 the time, and his secretary. It was a very
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2 small operation up at Timely. Very small.
3 Q. After you did your drawings from the
4 script, then what happened?
5 A. I would turn in the pencils so that
6 they could have them lettered in ink, and then
7 if I were inking it, I would get the pages back
8 and I would ink them. After a while,
9 especially when I was working at DC, I would
10 pencil and ink them and leave space for a
11 letterer to do the balloons, because I had
12 become so familiar with the exact allocation of
13 space, so it saved time. I didn't have to go
14 back and pick up the pages again.
15 Q. Did you ever do that while you were
16 at Marvel in the 1950s?
17 A. I think I probably did occasionally
18 towards the end of the '70s -- the first seven
19 years when I got so familiar and Stan trusted
20 me, I think I -- he would say "don't bother
21 bringing it in to be lettered, just ink it up
22 and we will have it lettered." It was just a
23 matter of expediency and saving time.
24 Q. Do you know who came up with the
25 ideas for the stories?
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2 A. I think -- my memory is that the
3 writers would submit a synopsis, like a
4 half-a-page synopsis saying this is going to be
5 a story about a cattle baron and rustlers and
6 Indians and Stan would say "I like that story,
7 add a pretty girl," that kind of stuff, and
8 then they would write the story. Stan probably
9 did all the selection. He might have -- he
10 might have even written some synopses himself
11 and handed them out to writers to do this.
12 Stan's brother was a young writer and he would
13 do the same thing. He would give his younger
14 brother a synopsis and the younger brother
15 would do the script.
16 Q. Do you know his brother's name?
17 A. Larry Leiber. Lawrence Leiber, I
18 guess.
19 Q. What would happen to the script when
20 you brought it back after it was inked and
21 penciled, penciled and inked?
22 A. Well, that's interesting. I assume
23 they just destroyed it. I'm not sure. Maybe
24 he just saved it for future use. I do remember
25 after six or seven years that I would get
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2 eerily similar story lines. If I would do a
3 western, I'd say to Stan, "you know, I could
4 swear I did this story before." They would
5 change the names -- some writer would change
6 the names and give -- or maybe it's just a
7 coincidence that they had the same idea five
8 years later, but I did remember doing a lot of
9 duplication. It was a sausage factory kind of
10 thing, just churning them out. Very hard to
11 keep tabs on things. Mostly memory.
12 Q. When you would bring the pencils
13 back to the office, would anybody look at them?
14 A. Stan Lee.
15 Q. And what would he do?
16 A. He would tell me if there was
17 anything that needed to be corrected. He would
18 tell me "don't do this too much in the future,
19 do more of this, do more of that." I remember
20 one time I -- for some reason I was doing a
21 documentary type of thing or a science fiction
22 type of thing and I did a little bit more
23 elaborate rendering on the inking, which was a
24 terrible mistake, because Stan Lee said "I love
25 that technique" and I said "oh, my God," and he
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2 adventures in the west, love stories and war
3 stories. So it was rather generic.
4 Q. Okay. So can you give me an example
5 during that time period of a correction that
6 Stan might have asked for?
7 A. He would ask for sometimes a smile
8 on a face instead of a frown. In other words,
9 if an artist is not thinking, sometimes he
10 doesn't read every little subtlety in the
11 description or in the dialogue. He might just
12 do an automatic expression or no expression and
13 he would say "you need more expression." Stan
14 was always very good. Most editors were not as
15 careful. They would take your work and never
16 say -- they would grunt and take it and you
17 don't know if you were right or wrong. Stan
18 would always make sure you knew if you were
19 right and when you were wrong, he told you,
20 which was how I learned. Practically
21 everything I learned was because of that extra
22 attention he gave to things. He used to say
23 "it's okay now, but don't do this in the
24 future," that kind of stuff, which was always
25 good instructions.
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2 Q. Was that also the case when you were
3 at Marvel in the 1950s, that if you got -- if
4 you did the work, you would be paid for it?
5 A. Oh, yes.
6 Q. Even if they didn't use it?
7 A. Well, unless it was a very
8 badly-done job, I don't -- I don't remember
9 ever seeing that. I think Alex Toth, one of
10 the best artists in the world, once submitted a
11 story to Roy Thomas and it was so different
12 than Roy had asked for that he never used the
13 story. I don't know if he paid him or not. I
14 think he did, but that would have been an
15 occasion when, I think, the editor or the
16 writer would have had a right to say, "well,
17 listen, you did this so absolutely contrary to
18 what we wanted, we can't use it." He may have
19 just thrown it back at him. I don't know.
20 Because Alex Toth was one of those
21 individualists who didn't believe in listening
22 to anybody else.
23 Q. That would have been later, that
24 wouldn't have been in the 1950s?
25 A. No. I think that was in the '60 --
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2 other, going up the West Side Highway. I would
3 have never done it, but Jack Kirby does it and
4 Stan Lee accepted it. And I ended up doing the
5 drawing and made it work and they loved the
6 story.
7 Q. Now, why was it necessary to have a
8 pacing guide?
9 A. Because I was not familiar with the
10 way Stan wanted the stuff done and I had not --
11 I had not seen the books. See, I never -- I
12 never knew what was making them tick, the same
13 way as DC didn't think -- didn't know.
14 Q. Did you get a script when you were
15 back -- this is 1965 -- at Marvel?
16 A. No. It was a plot. Wait a second.
17 I'm not sure. I think it was a plot.
18 Q. And what do you mean by a plot?
19 A. A plot is either a written
20 description of what the story is saying. At
21 the beginning, there will be a fight for five
22 pages, Daredevil will end up wounded, will go
23 limping to his girlfriend's house and she will
24 dress his wounds. Just a general sequence of
25 events. Generally a page long, maybe a page
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2 and a half. Or like I foolishly did, a verbal
3 plot. We would get together and trade ideas.
4 Q. Who would get together?
5 A. Stan and I would get together in a
6 room and say, okay, the villain is going to be
7 The Lizard and The Lizard is going to turn into
8 The Lizard on page 3. He is a doctor, a
9 one-armed doctor, and he turns into The Lizard
10 and his family is kidnapped and he is now
11 tearing up the city trying to find his family.
12 That's about all we would get. And then I
13 would have to do the nuts and bolts sequential
14 between every episode -- every little thing
15 that happens you have to tie them together and
16 make them sensible, so the artist's problem --
17 I was terrified because I had always worked
18 with a script. This was the first time I was
19 deciding what was going to go on the splash,
20 what was going to go on page 2, what was going
21 to go on page 3. It was very difficult for me,
22 very hard, but it turned out to be the greatest
23 thing for the industry and for me, because the
24 comic -- the comic medium had been a script
25 first and visual second and this made it visual
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2 first and script second, which was probably the
3 greatest innovation, completely done for
4 expediency sake. Had nothing to do with
5 anything except expedience. They didn't -- he
6 didn't have time to write the scripts. So he
7 was feeding plots to artists to keep them busy
8 temporarily. At first he used to say "I will
9 send you a script in two days, so start the
10 story," and it ended up being the entire story
11 would be verbally dictated over the phone or in
12 a personal interview with the artist.
13 Q. Why would he switch from scripts to
14 plots?
15 A. Only expedience. Because he was
16 doing seven or eight major titles all by
17 himself.
18 Q. And "he" is Stan?
19 A. He used to split -- Stan Lee. Stan
20 Lee would split the week sometimes and work two
21 days home, three days in the office, sometimes
22 two days in the office and three days at home,
23 whatever it was. He would write four scripts
24 in one day, bring them in the next day, and
25 then the following day he would then stay home
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2 and do four or five more scripts. But when he
3 was behind, when he couldn't keep up with the
4 artists and he did not want the artists to stay
5 idle, because the deadlines were looming, he
6 would give them a descriptive verbal or
7 written -- quickly-written synopsis of what to
8 do. And that's how the plot first and script
9 second, script third came about, which was
10 called the Marvel method, which I believe made
11 the comic industry what it is today. I believe
12 there would be no comic industry if it weren't
13 for that.
14 Q. Was that how all of the comic books
15 at Marvel were done in the mid '60s?
16 A. I think so. There were some
17 scripted. Rawhide Kid was still being written
18 by Larry Leiber. Some of the other second
19 line -- teenage romance books were still done,
20 I think, by script. I'm pretty sure. I'm not
21 too sure -- I'm not a hundred percent sure on
22 that, but I believe that's the way it was --
23 the ones that Stan had to write were generally
24 plot -- plot first, plot, pencils, script.
25 Q. And when you say "script" in that
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2 the writer and it took a little bit of hard
3 work from pencilers to do it, but it ended up
4 being good for a penciler too, because it
5 stretched his muscles and stretched his
6 capabilities and his results.
7 MS. SINGER: How are we doing on the
8 tape?
9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have 24
10 minutes left.
11 MS. SINGER: Do you need a break?
12 THE WITNESS: No, not yet. If
13 anybody else wants a break, I will wait.
14 BY MS. SINGER:
15 Q. So when you got back to Marvel in
16 the mid '60s, Stan asked you to do Daredevil.
17 How long did you stay on Daredevil?
18 A. I did twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
19 fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen -- I
20 think I did from twelve to eighteen. Nineteen
21 I was off the book and on Spider-Man.
22 Q. And why did you switch to
23 Spider-Man?
24 A. He and the Spider-Man artist
25 disagreed on almost everything.
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2 Q. "He" is?
3 A. Steve Ditko.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Steve Ditko had started Spider-Mad
6 with him --
7 Q. With --
8 A. With Stan. I'm sorry.
9 Q. That's okay.
10 A. Stan and Steve Ditko were doing
11 Spider-Man for 38 issues plus annuals, 40-plus
12 issues, and it was the second most -- second
13 best selling book in the Marvel stable. Stan
14 asked me to use Spider-Man as a guest star in
15 Daredevil for two issues, number 16 and number
16 17, I believe, and I put Spider-Man in and drew
17 him as well as I could and it turned out that
18 he was feeling me out as a possible
19 replacement. I didn't know that he and Ditko
20 were at odds so extremely, but they ended up
21 not being able to work together because they
22 disagreed on almost everything, cultural,
23 social, historically, everything, they
24 disagreed on characters, so he asked me "do you
25 think you could do the book?" I assumed
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2 foolishly that Ditko would not stay away too
3 long, because if I would have had a hit series
4 that was three years and growing in audience, I
5 would have never left it, so I attributed the
6 same kind of sense to him, which turns out he
7 had no intention of coming back. I thought I
8 was going to do a short couple of months fill
9 in and I'd go back on Daredevil, once again
10 showing I don't know what I am talking about.
11 And I ended up doing seven straight years and
12 maybe fifteen years on and off on Spider-Man.
13 Q. How did it go when you first started
14 drawing Spider-Man?
15 A. It was very difficult, because
16 Ditko's -- I felt obliged -- I felt the reader
17 needs not to have a jarring change on a hit
18 book. If you are a Spider-Man fan and you are
19 buying it for three years, I don't think you
20 would like to see a different style and a
21 different approach. I felt the obligation of
22 all artists who replace another artist to
23 simulate and use the same style, at least
24 temporarily, at least for a while, and I didn't
25 expect I would have to stay on it long enough,
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2 needed what we call the indoctrination, meaning
3 the Stan Lee approach to comics and how to
4 handle it, how to approach the story, the
5 excitement level and the dynamics of the story,
6 and I used to be able to slowly -- slowly but
7 surely I got used to every instruction Stan
8 gave and I would start to do it whenever he
9 wasn't around, so I became a de facto art
10 director without pay, without portfolio,
11 without anything. And --
12 Q. What were your responsibilities as
13 the de facto art director?
14 A. Well, they were nothing written out.
15 I just ended up doing some of the things that
16 Stan would do if he were in the office.
17 Whenever he was not in the office, they would
18 come to me and ask me "tell this guy what Stan
19 would like," and so young artists used to come
20 to me and it led to eventually an apprentice
21 program which I supervised later on after Stan
22 Lee level.
23 Q. So when Stan was there you mentioned
24 that one of your duties was a correction
25 artist. What was a correction artist?
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2 A. Sometimes artists would bring in the
3 story and leave out something or put in
4 something that he objected to and he would ask
5 me to make a change.
6 Q. Stan would?
7 A. Stan Lee would ask me to --
8 sometimes he didn't like a girl's face, some
9 artists are very good at girls, at drawing
10 girls, and some are not so good. So if a guy
11 did a girl that he thought was not as glamorous
12 or not as effective as it should be, he would
13 ask me to make the changes. I used to change a
14 lot of people's faces for which I got a
15 reputation of being an egomanic. They thought
16 I was initiating it. I was just following
17 orders like a Nazi guard. And so I -- whenever
18 somebody's costume was wrong or whenever the
19 setting was wrong or if it was a nighttime
20 scene and it should have been a daytime scene,
21 all of these little things fell into my lap to
22 the point where we would then hire some people
23 to be around to help out. More than one person
24 was hired to help me out with that. I also was
25 given the assignment of doing cover sketches.
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2 done, then you can -- then you know what
3 costume to put on the person and what situation
4 to do because it has not been done until the
5 penciling gets done.
6 Q. You mentioned villains. Who had the
7 idea for what villains were? How did villains
8 come about?
9 A. Stan Lee or whoever was writing the
10 story. Eventually other editors and writers
11 would be on staff. So whoever was writing a
12 story and introducing a character would come to
13 me and say "we would like a character called
14 The Rhino" or "we would like a character called
15 The Shocker." Sometimes they came and said "we
16 have a character we would like to have, he is a
17 vigilante, we want to call him The Grim
18 Reaper." He turned out to be The Punisher.
19 They would just come in with a name. Some
20 editors later on -- Stan would just give me a
21 name. Very seldom had any visual to offer me.
22 He would give me a name and say "The Rhino" and
23 I would do -- devise some kind of a costume
24 that showed rhino elements and a villain
25 element. Nine times out of ten he accepted my
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2 drawing. Occasionally he would say, "no, that
3 doesn't look right, add a little this, put a
4 cloak on him, don't put a cloak on him, put a
5 mask on him, don't put a mask on him." So it
6 was give and take, but invariably most of my
7 ideas were accepted.
8 Q. And in the 1960s, the late 1960s,
9 would anybody other than Stan have been giving
10 you the ideas?
11 A. It's hard to tell when Roy started
12 to make requests. Probably before 1970 Roy was
13 asking for things too and we used to work
14 together with cover ideas. Sometimes we would
15 work out sketches in a very rough way and give
16 them out to artists, each artist that needed a
17 cover idea. 90 percent of the time it was Stan
18 in the '60s. Once the '70s came Stan was not
19 always in the office and always very busy
20 probably as each conglomerate that took over
21 the company -- Marvel would have different
22 demands on him and give him a different
23 position. He would go from editor in chief to
24 president of the company in some instances, so
25 his duties changed and whoever was left with
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2 editor in chief assignment I would then be at
3 his mercy and at his beck and call.
4 Q. At Marvel in the 1960s who was
5 responsible for deciding which artists would
6 draw which stories?
7 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection to 1960s
8 as -- do you mean after 1965 when he worked
9 there?
10 MS. SINGER: You can answer the
11 question.
12 A. Stan Lee decided. As far as I
13 remember, in the '60s Stan Lee would decide.
14 Later on when Stan was not in the office as
15 much sometimes the production manager would
16 make a decision like that, because he was
17 keeping tabs on who was available and who had
18 time, who was fast, who was slow. So other
19 people did make that decision later on.
20 Q. Were there any other artists who
21 were working in the offices full-time?
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Same objection.
23 Vague as to time.
25 question.
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2 couldn't take those weeks where I couldn't
3 produce enough to pay my bills. So it was all
4 rather casual. The same thing -- Marie went
5 from being a production person and a colorist
6 to a penciler in a gradual circuitous way.
7 Larry Leiber suddenly wanted to become an
8 artist and he started -- he gave up his writing
9 assignments and became an artist. Herb Trimpe
10 worked there. And we had all of the look of a
11 bullpen, but it sort of like grew like a
12 fungus. It didn't -- it wasn't ever planned.
13 It just happened. Things just occurred.
14 Q. What was the mechanism for payment
15 for your freelance work?
16 A. Whatever pages I did outside the
17 office I would vouch for.
18 Q. What was the process of vouching for
19 them?
20 A. If I did ten pages on a weekend, I
21 would vouch ten pages of Spider-Man and -- I
22 don't know how they did the bookkeeping,
23 because some of it was done on staff and some
24 of it was done on freelance. God knows what
25 mayhem we caused in the --
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2 Q. Was there a form that you filled out
3 or was there a voucher?
4 A. It was a voucher, an actual small
5 slip with the name of the book, the number and
6 month of the book, how many pages, your rate,
7 and you sign it.
8 Q. And then what would happen after you
9 filled out the voucher?
10 A. I would submit it to the editor and
11 the editor would process it through the
12 bookkeeping department and they would send me a
13 check. Checks used to be like every two weeks
14 or something, once a month. I'm not even sure.
15 It varied. Especially with different
16 incarnations of conglomerates.
17 Q. Do you recall would there be
18 anything printed on the check?
19 A. There was a disclaimer on the back.
20 No disclaimer.
21 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to time.
23 question.
24 A. It was -- it was fairly clear. It
25 was saying that we were giving up the rights to
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2 anything that was done in the books, the future
3 rights to them, so we -- I wanted to cash the
4 check, so I signed it.
5 Q. I am going to show you something
6 that, for the record, has already been marked
7 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 at the deposition of
8 Stan Lee on May 13, 2010.
9 Mr. Romita, don't worry about the
10 front of this. I just would like you to turn
11 to the last page of Plaintiff's Exhibit 2.
12 A. The back of the old checks.
13 Q. Okay. I know this isn't your
14 signature. It's a little hard to read.
15 A. No, that's John D'Agostino.
16 MR. TOBEROFF: I would like to
17 object to this exhibit because the --
18 despite the inferences in the affidavit,
19 which I find somewhat misleading, the check
20 is actually, I believe, a 1987 check. If
21 you look at the markings on the back of the
22 check, it says City National, JE-87, so
23 it's a 1987 check we are talking about.
24 Q. So, Mr. Romita, I know it's a little
25 hard to read, so, for the record, of the back
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2 of the check, we are looking at Plaintiff's
3 Exhibit 2, says: "By acceptance and
4 endorsement of this check, payee acknowledges,
5 (a) full payment for payee's employment by
6 Marvel Entertainment Group, Inc., (b) that all
7 payee's work has been within the scope of that
8 employment, and (c) that all payee's works are
9 and shall be considered as works made for hire,
10 the property of Marvel Entertainment Group,
11 Inc." Do you see that?
12 A. Yes. I read it many times.
13 Q. And is that similar to what you
14 recall being on the backs of your checks?
15 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. Vague.
16 "Similar."
17 A. Basically it's the same. Same -- it
18 always went over the same territory and to the
19 point where some of my colleagues were
20 threatening not to cash the checks.
21 Q. Do you recall approximately when it
22 was that your colleagues were threatening not
23 to --
24 A. I think somewhere in the late '70s.
25 They would threaten, but, of course, they would
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2 cash the checks eventually. Barry Windsor
3 Smith thought it was unreal. I don't know what
4 he was creating, what he felt he was creating,
5 but the point is they tried it. I never -- it
6 never occurred to me not to sign the check.
7 Q. In the '60s when you were drawing
8 Spider-Man and Daredevil, who did you think
9 owned the rights to Spider-Man and Daredevil?
10 A. Marvel Comics.
11 MR. TOBEROFF: I am just going to
12 make a running objection so I don't have to
13 interrupt the flow of this. When you say
14 "in the '60s," my objection is we are
15 really talking about after 1965, so I am
16 going to have a running objection.
17 Whenever you say "in the '60s," my
18 objection is it's vague as to time.
19 MS. SINGER: Okay. You can have a
20 standing objection to that.
21 MR. TOBEROFF: Thanks.
22 Q. Mr. Romita, did Stan ever reassign a
23 book or a character that you were working on to
24 somebody else?
25 A. Yeah. He would have replacements
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2 for me, substitutes, guest artists do
3 Spider-Man if he needed me on another book.
4 Occasionally Captain America and then at one
5 time Fantastic Four obviously needed to be done
6 and he would ask me to do them and someone
7 would fill in on Spider-Man for me during those
8 periods. I sometimes did three, four or five
9 months on Captain America and I did four
10 issues, I believe, on Fantastic Four.
11 Spider-Man was done by John Buscema and Gil
12 Kane in those instances.
13 Q. Do you know why he would reassign
14 books or have artists do different things?
15 A. I never questioned it. I assumed it
16 was because Captain America needed help and he
17 didn't have a proper artist to do Captain
18 America to his liking and he liked the way I
19 did Captain America, so he would -- he used to
20 use me like a bullpen pitcher. I would come in
21 and relieve. Whatever he felt was a bad
22 situation, I would do the book and revive it
23 and sometimes he used me to do -- to establish
24 a certain style and direction in the book and
25 then he would give it to somebody like Jim
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2 Steranko or somebody else to carry it on after
3 I would go back on Spider-Man.
4 Q. We talked about this a little bit,
5 but who would write the dialogue?
6 A. The person who wrote the script,
7 Stan Lee in his cases, Roy Thomas in his cases.
8 They wrote all the dialogue.
9 Q. Did artists ever write dialogue?
10 A. The only thing we used to do,
11 because we worked from a plot, we used to write
12 notes above and below the artwork and sometimes
13 in the margins to -- we would make notes and
14 say -- to remind him what we had talked about
15 in the plot and this is my response to it and
16 this is how I'm building up to it. So yes,
17 remember that this is -- we are now going into
18 the fight phase and such and such, on the next
19 page we would go to -- so there were
20 instructions by the artists as a reminder to
21 the writer what we plotted, or if we were
22 deviating from it slightly. Say I needed to
23 add a panel here because we forgot how he was
24 going to get from the east side to the west
25 side in thirty seconds. You know, that kind of
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2 stuff. So a lot of writers disregarded those
3 things, and when you do the artwork, you are
4 faced with the reality of actual bridges and
5 connections. You can't just make believe --
6 Spider-Man used to swing to Manhattan from
7 Queens, go on the rooftop, take an elevator
8 down and come out as Peter Parker, and I used
9 to tell Stan -- and I was such a fanatic for
10 believability and sense, common sense, I said,
11 "Stan, what did he do, how did he -- where is
12 his costume?" He said, "it's underneath." And
13 then he would forget. Sometimes he would have
14 him go into a doctor's office and take off his
15 shirt and be examined and I would say, "Stan,
16 he has got the costume on underneath." He
17 never thought of those things. I had him so
18 browbeat with my reality check that he once
19 made me for a year take off Peter Parker's
20 shoes and I had to put them on -- tie the
21 shoelaces and put them around his neck so that
22 as Peter Parker he could walk up a wall,
23 because somebody told him -- after all the
24 times I had tried to make him think
25 realistically, somebody told him, "well, how
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2 can he walk up the walls when he has got shoes
3 on?" His spider abilities doesn't -- he should
4 have even taken his socks off. The point is I
5 had to do the damn shoes for at least a year or
6 six months. That's the -- I also created a web
7 pack where Peter Parker would take his clothes
8 and put them in a web sack and put them around
9 on his back like a knapsack so that when he got
10 to New York he could take his clothes out of
11 the web sack, put them on and leave his -- and
12 go downstairs, you know. In other words, now
13 at least you know he could put his clothes on.
14 Where the hell were his clothes all the time?
15 You know. So I was a realist and Stan was
16 always -- "it's not important. The reader
17 doesn't think of those things." Well, I think
18 of them. I can't stand it that way. So that's
19 the kind of stuff we used to have. That's
20 where all of the changes come from.
21 Q. So what would Stan do with notes or
22 the dialogue in the margins?
23 A. I used to write notes that I thought
24 were clever. I'd say "maybe he should say
25 'what's up'," you know, something like that.
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2 They sounded clever to me while I was doing the
3 drawing. 3 in the morning everything sounds
4 clever. He invariably would not use them, and
5 I asked him once "why wouldn't you use -- why
6 wouldn't you let him" -- he said something
7 similar. He said, "because I can't speak in
8 somebody else's vernacular." He says, "when I
9 am writing my characters, I am writing in Peter
10 Parker's personality and Aunt May's personality
11 and I write the captions in my personality. If
12 I start putting your personality in there, I am
13 going to confuse the reader." So he used to --
14 he told me -- he invariably did not use
15 anything that was in the margins that was
16 cleverly suggested by the artists, because he
17 said he did not want to stray from his normal
18 approach. He had a dialogue going with the
19 reader. Saying "dear reader, this is your
20 editor speaking right now." He used to do
21 that. It used to drive me crazy. I used to
22 tell him "you are puncturing the illusion."
23 It's like opening a door in the theater and
24 letting the sunlight in and everybody realizes
25 they are watching a movie now. I said "you are
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2 ruining" -- he said, "it doesn't matter. I am
3 talking to my readers."
4 Q. Do you know whether it was just your
5 dialogue he wouldn't use? Would he use anybody
6 else's dialogue in the margins?
7 A. I don't think so.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for
9 speculation.
10 A. I don't think so. I don't think he
11 ever -- I think he -- more than once I've heard
12 him saying he avoided anybody else's
13 expressions in the scripts.
14 Q. Who had the final say on what the
15 dialogue would be, what the characters would
16 say?
17 A. Stan.
19 A. Stan edited the book until the
20 minute it was yanked out of his hands to take
21 to the publisher and nobody had anything to say
22 after that.
23 Q. When did you first meet Jack Kirby?
24 A. Shortly after -- between July of '65
25 and January of '66 I brought some artwork in
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2 and Jack was sitting doing a correction the way
3 I eventually would do all the corrections on a
4 Steve Ditko cover, Jack was making a change,
5 and I was introduced to Jack Kirby, who ten
6 years earlier, twelve years earlier had been my
7 idol when I was a kid and Captain America came
8 out. It was like meeting, you know, the
9 president of the United States.
10 Q. Why would Jack Kirby have been
11 making changes to a Steve Ditko cover?
12 A. Because of Stan's long-honored
13 tradition. Whoever was caught in the office
14 when he needed a change was subject to the
15 assignment. If you came in, you had to have a
16 pencil with you. If you didn't have a pencil
17 with you, you were out of luck. But Jack was
18 amenable to making the change. Stan didn't
19 like something Ditko had done on the cover and
20 Jack changed it. Whenever I -- even in the
21 first seven years before Marvel Comics existed
22 I would go in and deliver a mystery story, four
23 pages, and hope for another script. Stan would
24 say, "while you are here, can you do me a favor
25 and change -- this is Arthur Peddy's romance
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2 story here. Would you change this expression,
3 would you change this figure, would you add a
4 car in this scene." He did it all the time.
5 No pay. "Just do me a favor." You know, and
6 the inference was you want a script, do me some
7 corrections.
8 Q. Did you ever make any changes to any
9 of Jack Kirby's work?
10 A. Yes. And it was hard for me,
11 because I idolized the man's stuff. I used to
12 change occasionally girl's faces. Now, Jack
13 used to do girls that I loved. I loved his
14 girls. But Stan used to find sometimes
15 something that he didn't like, an expression,
16 two wide a face, too narrow a face, mostly too
17 wide, and he would ask me to adjust it. He
18 liked the way I did one of the female
19 characters in Captain America better than the
20 way Jack did it, so I would occasionally change
21 the faces. Much to my chagrin, people accused
22 me of being an egomaniac, again, because they
23 thought I was the one changing it. Since I was
24 a de facto art director, they said, "look this
25 Romita, he is changing everybody's work."
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2 Barry Smith almost put a contract out on me
3 because I changed somebody -- a girl's face on
4 a Conan cover. To this day I still don't know
5 why he is talking to me. We are friends, but I
6 know he wanted to kill me then.
7 Q. Whose idea were those changes? Were
8 they ever yours?
9 A. Uh-uh, never. I would never change
10 anybody -- I had to change Jack Kirby's work,
11 Gene Colan's work, John Buscema's work. I
12 idolized all of these guys. I would -- it
13 violated me to have to do it. I cringed. And
14 I will tell you, the worst thing is initially
15 we didn't have the equipment or the technology
16 to do it less obtrusively, because originally
17 we didn't have photostats and xeroxes to work
18 with. I erased things. To this minute I --
19 the hair on the back of my neck stands up when
20 I am thinking I am erasing a Jack Kirby face
21 and putting my face in there. That, to me, is
22 a criminal act. I did it because I had no
23 choice. Stan asked me to change it. We had no
24 technology. As soon as I was art director and
25 Stan was on the west coast and we had the
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2 technology to have a photostat, I devised a
3 system with iodine to erase things on a
4 photostat with iodine and I would get a clean
5 photostat, perfect surface, and eliminate a
6 face. So I would take a photostat of a page or
7 a panel, I would iodine the face out, I would
8 put in the face that stand wanted or the
9 editor -- Roy Thomas or whoever was the editor
10 then, and we would paste that over the artwork.
11 At least I could say to myself when the art
12 goes back to the guy I idolized, he could peel
13 it off and you could see his original art.
14 Then I felt better. But until we had the
15 technology, I used to actually deface artwork
16 that I idolized. And it was not fun, but I did
17 my duty as I was instructed.
18 Q. Did it ever occur to you not to do
19 it if Stan asked you to?
20 A. It occurred to me, but I never
21 figured it was worth it. You know, one thing I
22 gotta constantly remind people of. I did not
23 envision a world where anyone would not only
24 care or even remember that there was a comic
25 industry. From the '50s on I assumed the comic
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2 Stan were buddies. Every time he visited, "I
3 want to give him a daily, I want to give him a
4 Sunday." I would take one of my Sunday pieces
5 of art and sign it "to Andre, John Romita." He
6 would sign it, and we would give it to him. I
7 gave away artwork that is now selling for
8 $50,000. I gave them away in the office.
9 That's my -- that was my -- my take on the
10 future of comics and the future worth of the
11 artwork was absolutely who is gonna give a damn
12 about this. In five years nobody will even
13 remember we lived here. So help me. That was
14 my take. So as much as I cringed changing it,
15 I never felt serious guilt because I thought
16 who is gonna care. That's my defense. I mean,
17 maybe I would still get convicted of a crime.
18 I don't know. That would be my defense.
19 Q. Do you know whether Jack Kirby was
20 working from -- do you know how he would get
21 his stories in the 1960s?
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for -- vague as
23 to time and calls --
24 A. No, no, he was plotting them the
25 same as I was. With Stan.
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2 MS. SINGER: Let him say his peace
3 and then --
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
5 MS. SINGER: That's okay.
6 MR. TOBEROFF: It's not my peace. I
7 make certain objections as to form in a
8 deposition, so I am just objecting to the
9 form of the question and then after I
10 object, you can answer, but I have to get
11 my -- sorry to interrupt. I have to get my
12 objection in before you answer.
13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry I
14 interrupted you.
15 MR. TOBEROFF: So my objection is
16 vague as to time. Calls for speculation.
17 Calls for opinion testimony.
18 A. I was present at at least two
19 plotting sessions of John -- Jack and Stan Lee.
20 They were the same as my plotting sessions and
21 the same as Gene Colan's and Herb Trimpe's and
22 John Buscema. John Buscema actually did his
23 plotting by phone, because he lived two hours
24 away from the city. But anybody else who went
25 in, Colan would come in, Jack Kirby would come
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2 in, I was at the office, we would plot in
3 Stan's office, and with Stan and Jack, most of
4 the time -- some of the times Jack would --
5 Stan would drive both of us home on a Friday
6 night or whatever night he was in plotting.
7 They would finish or almost finish and then
8 Stan would say, "come on, I will drive you guys
9 home." He would drop me off first and then he
10 would take Jack, who lived about twenty minutes
11 past me in the same general area of Long
12 Island. So I was in the back seat of Stan's
13 Cadillac on two occasions that I remember
14 distinctly, maybe more, where they were
15 continuing what they had not finished in the
16 office, continued plotting. I remember one
17 particular Fantastic Four plot about the birth
18 of the son of the two major characters in the
19 Fantastic Four. Mr. Fantastic and
20 The Invisible Girl were having a baby and it
21 was a boy and they were discussing whether the
22 boy would be gifted, a mutant like they were
23 and gifted with powers and talents, or whether
24 he would be a normal boy, and I remember the
25 reference -- I even referred to them and said
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2 it's like the Munsters. There was -- in the
3 Munsters television show they were all bizarre
4 mutated people except for the little boy who
5 was raised -- or there was a girl. I think
6 there was a girl. She was the only normal
7 person. So I said you could make the kid a
8 normal guy in a family of mutants. And then
9 they said they considered that, and then said,
10 "well, I don't know" -- and I was thinking to
11 myself, wow, wouldn't it be great if they had
12 him and you never know if the kid has powers
13 and slowly but surely he would exhibit -- for
14 instance, he would levitate a glass or
15 something. And so I am thinking all these
16 things while they are talking and I remember
17 them talking. One guy would make a suggestion,
18 Jack would say, "that's not a bad idea, but
19 what if we did it this way," and then Stan
20 would say, "okay, but only if we did it that
21 way" and "only if we did it this way." They
22 were both talking different plots and it's --
23 and the reason I know it is because when Stan
24 and I would plot, I foolishly did it from
25 memory. I never recorded it. Gene Colan was
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2 his setting, I would do everything he would ask
3 for, but I had to do the nuts and bolts of the
4 story. When it comes to characters, he would
5 ask me "give me a character called The
6 Shocker." I would create -- he would tell
7 me the -- he has the powers to shock people
8 with electric bolts from his wrists. So he
9 shocks people.
10 Q. Stan would tell you that?
11 A. Yeah, he would say that's what
12 The Shocker is. So I would create a costume
13 for it. I didn't create the name. I didn't
14 create anything else. I didn't create the
15 powers. I just created the costume. I put him
16 in a quilted outfit, believe it or not. I
17 thought it was going to be laughed at. Stan
18 accepted. He was quilted so he could absorb
19 his own shocks. The next time it would be
20 The Rhino. He is a man in a rhino skin. He
21 could drive himself through a wall. Just butt
22 head right through a wall. I just did a guy in
23 a rhino skin with his face showing through the
24 open mouth of the rhino. Brilliant. Stan
25 accepted it. And then he would take the
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2 character and make him valid. He would make
3 him valid by his behavior, by his dialogue, by
4 his -- the results of what he does, the mayhem
5 he caused, and he would give the guy a
6 personality. That's all it was.
7 Q. Who owned those characters?
8 A. Marvel Comics.
9 MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for a legal
10 opinion.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
12 MR. TOBEROFF: It's okay.
13 Q. What was your understanding of who
14 owns those characters?
16 opinion.
17 MS. SINGER: You can answer.
18 A. I assumed Marvel Comics owned them.
19 I know Stan didn't own them and I didn't own
20 them.
21 Q. When Jack Kirby would bring his
22 pages in when you were working in the office,
23 what would happen to Jack's pages?
25 A. I remember one thing about them. As
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2 back of a costume. I remember one pirate shot
3 he did was glorious. It was on the back of the
4 page. I am sure -- I haven't seen all of the
5 Kirby collectors magazines and oversized books,
6 reprints. I'm sure some of those are in there,
7 some of the glorious drawings. John Buscema
8 used to do works of art on the backs of his
9 pages just to loosen up his wrist before he
10 started to pencil. He would do beautiful
11 animals, beautiful girls. People used to copy
12 the front of the page with Buscema and the back
13 of the page. That's all I could tell you.
14 That's my memory of seeing those pages. Until
15 I had to make changes on them.
16 Q. Did Jack know that you were making
17 changes to his artwork?
18 A. You know, I never asked him.
20 A. I never asked him. I assumed he
21 did, because I assumed he would look at the
22 book and see things were changed, although,
23 frankly, I think Jack probably never even
24 bothered to look.
25 Q. Why do you think that?
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2 scratch his nose. He will lose an eye. So I
3 said all right, make them retractable. They
4 retract. Like a cat puts its claws out and
5 retracts them, right? Make them retractable
6 into his forearm. That's all I said. So I
7 created that part of him. But I didn't create
8 the name. I just created the costume. And I
9 never considered that I created him. I always
10 tell people I created the costume. But I
11 didn't name him and I did not give him a
12 personality.
13 Q. Who would give characters
14 personality?
15 A. The writer.
17 A. I mean, the writer is the one who
18 gives him his dialogue and his history. The
19 history of a -- we used to have a series of
20 books called the Marvel -- I can't remember the
21 name of it, but it was the history of every
22 character, the look of it and how it was
23 devised and what his history was, and that was
24 written by the editor or the writer. It could
25 have been the editor, it could have been the
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2 writer. The editor sometimes tells the writer
3 to give him a history of the character. So the
4 personality of the character is done by the
5 writer and the editor. The look of the
6 character is done by the artist.
7 Q. Did Jack Kirby have anything to do
8 with Wolverine?
9 A. I don't think so. No. In fact,
10 Wolverine was not a member of the original
11 X-Men. It came -- it was in a Hulk book the
12 first time. He was a character -- a Canadian
13 villain out of Canada. That's another part of
14 the history that was created that I didn't
15 create. He was a Canadian and he appeared in
16 the Hulk. He had nothing to do with the X-Men.
17 He was added to the X-Men when the X-Men was
18 being done by Cockrum. Dave Cockrum was doing
19 the artwork and Len Wein was writing it. They
20 created the new X-Men and they included
21 Wolverine in the X-Men. That's all.
22 Q. How about Kingpin, how did Kingpin
23 come about?
24 A. Again, like The Rhino and
25 The Shocker, he would say "next month I want
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2 Mr. Amash that there was something inaccurate
3 about his quotes of your statements in this
4 interview?
5 A. Not that I remember.
6 Q. Turn to page, please, 428. In the
7 first column of the interview it says, if you
8 look at the second full paragraph on the left
9 side: "Timely publisher Martin Goodman used to
10 close shop at the drop of a hat. If expenses
11 got too high, he'd say "the hell with it," and
12 close shop. Nobody had any protection because
13 there were no pensions, no severance pay or
14 insurance plans, or saving plans. Everyone who
15 worked in comics were flying by the seat of
16 their pants."
17 A. True.
18 Q. Is that a true statement?
19 A. That was my impression.
20 Q. That's your understanding?
21 A. That was my impression of the way
22 the industry -- the way he ran his company. I
23 wasn't very bright.
24 Q. Does what you said about Marvel also
25 apply to your experience at DC after you left
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2 Q. But did you usually work from a
3 script during the period you worked in the
4 '50s?
5 A. I always worked from a script at
6 that time.
7 Q. And that's when -- that's -- the
8 period you spoke about was more of a kind of I
9 think you used the term sausage factory?
10 A. Yeah, they were turning them out.
11 The scripts were repetitious and similar and
12 the artwork was somewhat the same. Most of us
13 were just trying to make a dollar.
14 Q. And do you recall how much in the
15 '50s they would pay you for your work?
16 A. It ranged from the mid 20s to the
17 mid 40s. There were weeks -- there were years
18 where we had terrible times and there were good
19 years and there were bad years. Two good
20 years, one bad year. Two bad years, one good
21 year. In comics -- in those fifteen years
22 there was nothing you could count on. I could
23 make $6,000 one year, I could make $8,000 the
24 next year and I could make $5,000 the third
25 year, because the ebb and flow was always
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2 questionable. Martin Goodman would decide he
3 wasn't going to publish as many books. Then he
4 would decide to publish 25 more books. So it
5 was very erratic, very hard -- very difficult
6 to plan a life when you didn't know where the
7 money was coming from. It was a dumb way to
8 live.
9 Q. When you worked in this freelance
10 fashion, they always bought your work by the
11 page?
12 A. By the page.
13 Q. You referred to your working at some
14 point at Marvel as a correction artist. I
15 believe it was after you started working as a
16 full-time employee.
17 Can you try and pin down for me the
18 date or approximate date when you started
19 working as a correction artist on staff at
20 Marvel?
21 A. I don't believe there was any actual
22 date. It sort of -- it sort of creeped into
23 the process. It preceded my eight years at DC,
24 by the way. By the way, I also did corrections
25 at DC sometimes. Whenever I was in there, they
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2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 MS. SINGER: I have just a couple,
4 I'm sorry, and then we will get you out of
5 here.
6 MR. TOBEROFF: In that case I might
7 have more questions.
8 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY
9 MS. SINGER:
10 Q. A couple of things. When you were
11 talking with Mr. Toberoff, you mentioned that
12 the Fantastic Four was a trademark book of
13 Jack's.
14 When you used the word "trademark,"
15 were you using that in a legal sense?
16 A. No. It was -- he was associated
17 with it as a successful title. That's what I
18 meant. He had started it with Stan and they
19 were riding the crest of a wave of success.
20 Q. Do you know whether Jack owned any
21 of the characters or any of the works for
22 Fantastic Four?
23 A. I don't believe so.
24 Q. You were talking about the legends
25 on the back of the check.
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2 When you were at Marvel in the 1950s
3 before you left in '57 or '58, when you would
4 get checks from Marvel or Timely or whoever it
5 was for your page rate, do you recall whether
6 there was a legend on the back of the check?
7 A. I believe there was. I think they
8 wouldn't have -- well, I'm assuming there was.
9 I think I vaguely remember there was.
10 Sometimes a shorter paragraph, sometimes a
11 longer paragraph.
12 MS. SINGER: Okay. I have no
13 further questions.
14 MR. TOBEROFF: I will let you off
15 the hook. I have no further questions.
16 MS. SINGER: Before we go off the
17 record, I just want to clarify, Marc, that
18 Mr. Romita has appeared today both in
19 response to our subpoena, in response to
20 your subpoena, you have cross-examined him,
21 he has fully answered all your questions on
22 your subpoena and he is done. Are you in
23 agreement on that? You have had your
24 opportunity to question him.
25 MR. TOBEROFF: I am not -- I think
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EXHIBIT 3
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1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
Civil Action No. 10-141 (CM) (KF)
3
4
MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., )

5 MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., )
and MVL RIGHTS, LLC., )
6 )
Plaintiffs, )
7 )
vs. )
8 )
LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. )
9 KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY and )
SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
10 )
Defendants. )
11 )
)
12
13
VOLUME I
14
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
15
ROY THOMAS
16
17 October 26, 2010
18 10:06 a.m.
19
Holiday Inn Express

20 Orangeburg, South Carolina
21
ANNIE O'HARA, CCR-B-2340, SC Notary

22
23
24
25
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3 Case No. 10-141-CMKF
4
5 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC.,

6 MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., and
7 MVL RIGHTS, LLC,
8 Plaintiffs,
9 VS.
10 LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY,
11 NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY,
12 Defendants.
13
14
15 Volume II
16 Videotape Deposition of:
17 Roy Thomas
18 Wednesday, October 27, 2010
19 Orangeburg, South Carolina
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 Thomas
2 editorial-type responsibilities that you -- you were
3 doing during this time you were paid a salary?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then you were paid on top of that a
6 per-page rate for freelance writing work that you
7 did?
8 A. Yes. Yes. That actually began at the
9 very beginning, because the day I met Stan on a
10 Friday he gave me a story to dialogue, as we call
11 it, over the weekend. And that was counted as
12 freelance. So I received money -- or earned money a
13 week or so later as a freelance writer before I
14 freelanced, before I actually went on staff the next
15 morning.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. So they sort of -- they overlapped from
18 the very beginning.
19 Q. Who did you report to when you were a
20 staff writer?
21 A. The only real person I reported to
22 officially would have been Stan Lee, but as a matter
23 of practical fact, Stan gave out many of his
24 directives or communications through the production
25 manager, Sol Brodski. So while he wasn't exactly
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1 Thomas
2 technically my superior, he was a person that gave
3 me a lot of Stan's, you know, marching orders or
4 whatever and was very, very -- informal would be the
5 polite way to describe operations in the 1960s.
6 Q. Did there come a time that your title
7 changed from staff writer to something else?
8 A. Well, I just stopped being a staff writer
9 at that point, a month or two in. And we never
10 talked much about titles, but I guess I was like the
11 assistant editor or editorial assistant. I was
12 never told that. That's what I assumed I was. I
13 never had an official title until I was called
14 associate editor.
15 Q. When was that?
16 A. Around the end of 1966 or beginning of '67
17 Stan told me and the new assistant editor, who was a
18 friend of mine. He said: Well, we have got to have
19 some titles around here, he told me one day. He
20 said: I'm the editor, so I guess that makes you the
21 associate editor; and Gary, my friend, was the
22 assistant editor. From that time on, about a year
23 and a half or so after I worked there, I was the
24 associate editor until what? Middle or late 1972,
25 when I became editor-in-chief.
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1 Thomas
2 11:13 a.m.
3 BY MS. KLEINICK:
4 Q. Mr. Thomas, can you describe for us when
5 you arrived in Marvel in the 1960s what the first
6 step was in the process of creating a comic book
7 issue?
8 A. The first step was for the designated
9 writer to come up with a plot idea.
10 Q. How did the designated writer become
11 designated?
12 A. That was Stan Lee's decision. Of course,
13 it was often him designating himself, but then it
14 became me or someone else.
15 (Discussion off the record.)
16 BY MS. KLEINICK:
17 Q. What happens after the designated writer
18 comes up with a plot idea?
19 A. The writer would either write out the plot
20 or synopsis. We used those terms interchangeably or
21 he might -- in some cases, but usually it was
22 written -- might verbally -- one way or the other we
23 would give it to the -- the pencil artist. We would
24 often call the person the artist, but it was really
25 the pencil artist, who might or might not be the
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2 inker.
3 Q. How did the pencil artist become
4 designated to do the particular issue?
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Leading; lacks foundation.
6 BY MS. KLEINICK:
8 A. He -- that was Stan Lee's decision.
9 Q. When in the process was the writer and the
10 artist for a particular issue selected? When in the
11 process?
12 A. Well, I guess I would say more at the
13 beginning. I mean, right away -- when in the
14 process -- I mean, the writer -- either one of them
15 might have been put on first, because the artist
16 might be continuing, while it might be a new writer
17 or visa versa. I'm not sure if I understood the
18 question exactly.
19 Q. What would happen after the writer
20 provides either a plot or synopsis to the artist?
21 A. The artist would go and draw or pencil the
22 story.
23 Q. And what would the artist do after the
24 artist drew or penciled the story?
25 A. It would then be mailed or brought
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2 physically into the -- the office so Stan Lee could
3 review it. Of course, he was the writer. He would
4 also be writing them.
5 Q. And after Stan Lee reviewed the artwork,
6 what would happen next?
7 A. Well, if there were no corrections, it
8 would then be written by the writer, which would
9 either be Stan Lee or perhaps someone else.
10 Usually, Stan at that stage, when I first arrived.
11 Q. And when you say "written," what do you
12 mean?
13 A. Well, yes, what I really meant there is
14 the term that -- what we later came to use the verb
15 "dialogue for," which means to write the dialogue,
16 which includes, actually, the dialogue and the
17 so-called captions. And while doing that to
18 indicate those -- where those captions and balloons
19 come on the page, generally writing it on the
20 original artwork -- not the copy, but indicating the
21 shape of the balloons and the captions and writing a
22 separate script.
23 Q. And after the writer wrote the dialogue
24 and captions, what would happen next?
25 A. Well, if it was Stan or his brother Larry
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2 Lieber at that stage, it would be sent to the inking
3 the inker, we call it, the artist who applied the
4 ink, who usually was not the same artist who
5 penciled it; although, it was -- it could be but it
6 usually was not. If it was a new writer like me,
7 Stan would go over the -- the scripts first for the
8 first few months before it would be sent out.
9 Q. And where would it go after Stan would
10 review the scripts?
11 A. It then goes to a letterer. It would be
12 sent out -- I'm sorry. I said the inking art. I'm
13 sorry, it has to go to the letterer first. I'm
14 sorry. My mistake.
15 Q. What does the letterer do?
16 A. The letterer was the person who would
17 letter the actual dialogue and captions as well as
18 their shapes onto the page in ink.
19 Q. What is the difference between a letterer
20 and the inker?
21 A. The inker was the person who would apply
22 the ink to the drawing portion of the page, go over
23 to and amend and add to what the penciller had --
24 had drawn.
25 Q. So it goes from the letterer to the inker?
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2 A. Yes. Sometimes, it would come back
3 through the office to be rerouted, but often it was
4 just sent -- Stan, generally, did not review things
5 between the stages of lettering and inking, so quite
6 often the letterer was asked to just mail it
7 directly on to the -- to the inker. Or, you know,
8 the inker might even some days come by and pick it
9 up. There were many, many different little ways it
10 could work.
11 Q. What happens after the inker goes over the
12 pencils?
13 A. After the book is inked, the inker would
14 either mail or bring it into the office, either
15 turning it directly to Stan or to the production
16 manager, depending on whether Stan wanted to see him
17 or not.
18 Q. What would happen to it when it got to
19 either Stan or the production manager?
20 A. Stan would go over the story and proofread
21 it, asking for any changes he wanted on either the
22 copy or even at that stage, even still on the art if
23 he saw something that didn't quite work out.
24 Q. At what point does the issue get colored?
25 A. Well, at the time that the -- generally --
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2 pretty much as soon as the inking would come into
3 the office or very soon thereafter, it would be
4 Photostatted and reduced to a smaller size, about
5 the size of a comic page or so.
6 And those Photostats would be given to
7 what we call the colorist who is the person who
8 actually applied water colors to that to indicate
9 what the colors should be and also would write in
10 notations to clarify so that the colors would be
11 matched in the final book by the people who actually
12 did the physical coloring that got reproduced.
13 These were actually called color guides, what the
14 colorist did.
15 Q. Were the letterer, inker, and the colorist
16 all paid?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How were they paid, do you know?
19 A. By the page, according to whatever rate,
20 you know, varying rates they -- they had.
21 Q. At what point in the process does the
22 cover page -- did the cover page for the issue get
23 put together?
24 A. Well, it could be at any time. Usually,
25 it was after the story had been at least penciled.
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2 from time to time new villains or new supporting
3 characters.
4 Q. Did artists ever come up with ideas for
5 new characters?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was it your understanding that part of the
8 writer's assignment was to introduce new characters
9 into a comic book series?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was it your understanding that part of the
12 artist's assignment was to introduce new characters
13 into a comic book series?
14 A. Yes, anything that would be -- would
15 further the plot.
16 Q. How -- how did the artists know what to
17 draw?
18 MR. TOBEROFF: Leading; vague.
19 THE WITNESS: The artists were given a
20 story line, which might be anything from a few
21 sentences to in quite a few cases two or three
22 pages or so of a -- a sort of a --a general plot
23 line. It wasn't the exact dialogue, you know,
24 in movie script form. It was more a short story
25 synopsis of the scene. And that would tell the
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2 artist what the story was. Then it was his job
3 to turn that into pictures.
4 BY MS. KLEINICK:
5 Q. When you arrived at Marvel in 1965, did
6 you ever see Stan interacting with other writers or
7 artists?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you ever see Stan give a plot or
10 describe a plot to an artist?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. To your knowledge did artists start
13 working on pages before discussing the plot or
14 synopsis with Stan or the writer?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Who decided which writer and artist would
17 work on a particular comic book or issue?
18 A. Stan.
19 Q. Were the assignments to writers given
20 orally or in writing?
21 A. Generally, orally.
22 Q. Are you aware of how assignments were
23 given to artists?
24 A. Well, orally. Sometimes Stan would be
25 talking to the person directly. Just as often or
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2 more often Sol Brodski as the production manager
3 would later report -- would call that person up and
4 tell them. But, of course, they were always
5 understood to be speaking for Stan, and they were.
6 Q. And just so we're clear, I just want you
7 understand, when I'm saying "assignment," I mean the
8 assignment to do a particular issue.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Is that how you understood my question?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you aware of any instance where a
13 writer began to work on a new series or title or
14 comic book without first being assigned to it by
15 Stan?
16 A. People might come up with an idea for a
17 new series at some stage. Not -- not in the -- this
18 -- this wouldn't have happened before at least
19 about, you know, the early '70s or so. Once or
20 twice -- generally speaking, the ideas were
21 generated, you know, by someone in the office, by
22 Stan or sometimes later by me; but we were open to
23 somebody else coming in, but it wasn't anything we
24 were going around looking for or asking for.
25 Q. In the 1960s -- from 1965 to 1970, are you
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2 aware of any instance where a writer came in and

3 actually started working on a new series before Stan
4 said: Go ahead and write the series?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Are you aware of any instances where an
7 artist began work on a comic book issue before
8 getting the assignment to do the issue from Stan?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did writers or artists have any authority
11 to assign themselves to do an issue without prior
12 approval from Stan or Sol?
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. Are you aware of any instances where an
15 artist submitted artwork for an issue that he hadn't
16 been assigned to, like on spec?
17 A. Only new artists who were turning in
18 samples, not an established artist, not one that was
19 already -- was already doing work for Marvel.
20 Q. To your knowledge during this time period,
21 1965 to 1972, did Marvel ever buy any work created
22 on spec by freelance artists?
23 A. No. No.
24 Q. Were writers or artists ever during this
25 time period taken off a comic book issue for an
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2 ongoing series?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Whose decision was that?
5 A. Stan.
6 Q. And who had the final say on which comic
7 book stories each artist would be assigned to?
8 A. Stan Lee. He could have been technically
9 overruled by publisher Martin Goodman, if Martin
10 Goodman found there was some artist or someone he
11 really didn't like or he did like or something. But
12 as a practical matter, Goodman did not concern
13 himself with anything like that, except at sometimes
14 there were certain artists whose covers he didn't
15 think were clear enough.
16 He didn't like if Stan assigned that
17 person to do a cover. Occasionally, they had a
18 little problem about that. And, of course,
19 Goodman's word was final. But as a matter of
20 practical fact, 90-plus percent of the time it was
21 Stan's decision.
22 Q. Was there a set production schedule for
23 the Marvel comic titles back in the 1960s to early
24 '70s?
25 A. Yes.
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2 Q. When the writers were given an assignment,
3 were they also given a deadline to submit the --
4 let's start with the artist. When the artists were
5 given an assignment, were they given a deadline by
6 which they had to submit the finished pencils?
7 A. Yes. Either the exact date or as fast as
8 you could do it. But, yes. They were doing a
9 deadline.
10 Q. And then when the artwork went to the
11 writers, were the writers also given deadlines by
12 which they had to submit the scripts?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The dialogue?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who set those deadlines?
17 A. They were worked out by the production
18 manager.
19 Q. That was Sol Brodski?
20 A. Yes. Through '70 or so when he quit.
21 After that by John Berpoorten.
22 Q. And who ultimately decided which books
23 were published and which books weren't published?
24 A. Well, during that period and through about
25 sometime in about '72, it was generally Martin
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2 Goodman. For a short period of time in the early
3 '70s it was his son Chip Goodman who had -- who was
4 -- had become publisher.
5 Q. Was the assignment process the same for
6 freelancers as it was for staff writers and artists?
8 THE WITNESS: I was going ask, just to --
9 if you could clarify that, just I make sure --
10 I'm sure I understand it.
11 BY MS. KLEINICK:
12 Q. Did staff artists get their assignments
13 the same way, from Stan or from Sol Brodski?
14 A. Oh, yes.
15 MR. TOBEROFF: Compound.
16 BY MS. KLEINICK:
17 Q. How did staff artists get their
18 assignments?
19 A. They were told either directly by Stan or
20 quite often by Sol Brodski in his capacity to do
21 them. Of course, if Sol assigned an artist, it was
22 because Stan wanted that artist assigned to it.
23 They would confer on it and say: Is this artist
24 available. Things of this sort.
25 Sol was the practical one who had to tell
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2 Stan that, you know, this artist can't do it or can
3 do it, or it will cause problems if this artist was
4 taken off something else to do this and that. They
5 worked very closely on that.
6 Q. So after the artist submitted pencil
7 drawings, you testified that Stan would review the
8 artist's work; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was that the case for all of the Marvel
11 artists, that Stan reviewed their work?
12 A. Yes. He paid a little less attention,
13 perhaps, to some of the, you know, lesser books --
14 he probably went -- you know, like the westerns and
15 so forth that were kind of dying out. But he
16 reviewed everything.
17 Q. Were artists ever asked to make changes to
18 the materials they submitted for publication?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who did those requests come from?
21 A. They either came directly from Stan or,
22 again, were delivered by Sol Brodski on Stan's
23 behalf, or even I might eventually be asked to tell
24 someone. But, again, it was always on behalf of
25 Stan. In the early days I wouldn't have made any
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2 independent judgments of that sort.
3 Q. Did Stan or any of the other Marvel
4 editors, including yourself, ever revise the work
5 that had been submitted by an artist?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What kind of direction or feedback did
8 artists typically get from either Stan or another
9 editor in the 1960s to early '70s?
10 MR. TOBEROFF: Lacks foundation; leading.
11 THE WITNESS: He would give them an
12 impression of whether he generally liked the
13 work or not and things he particularly liked and
14 perhaps things he didn't like or that they
15 should watch it and perhaps do it a little
16 differently in the future. That's something he
17 might let go this time, but he would like them
18 to get more excitement or do this or do that.
19 BY MS. KLEINICK:
20 Q. Did you hear Stan communicating this to
21 artists?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were changes ever made by Stan or any of
24 the other Marvel editors or production people
25 without first consulting the artist?
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2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you testified that when the writer
4 brought in the completed assignment, the dialogue,
5 that if it was a writer other than Stan, that Stan
6 would review that work product; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were writers ever asked to make changes to
9 their work?
10 A. Yes. Sometimes the writer was asked to
11 make the changes, or sometimes Stan would just make
12 it himself, make the change himself.
13 Q. And when Stan made the changes himself,
14 did he consult with the writer?
15 A. No. He might tell us what he was going to
16 do or what he had already done, but it was a case of
17 telling us, not consulting and asking for our extra
18 input or anything like that. He would let us know
19 and he would try to tell us why he did it.
20 Q. When you were either assistant editor or
21 associate editor or editor-in-chief -- in any of
22 those editorial capacities -- did you have authority
23 to make changes to materials that were submitted for
24 publication if you believed that changes were
25 appropriate?
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2 A. Yes. In the, you know, very earliest days
3 I wouldn't have done that; but gradually Stan let me
4 know as time went on that, you know, that I should
5 -- that I could take, you know, some of this, you
6 know, burden off. And so it was a practical fact if
7 I was sure that it was something that Stan would
8 want or at least I thought that Stan would want --
9 but I would tend for much of that time, most of that
10 time, until I was at least editor-in-chief to try to
11 check it with him if I could.
12 Q. Did -- did Stan ever -- if Stan decided.
13 Was it your understanding that Marvel had
14 the ability to use characters that were introduced
15 into its story lines by a writer and artist into a
16 different comic book story line being drawn and
17 written by a different artist and writer?
18 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection; compound;
19 leading; vague.
20 BY MS. KLEINICK:
23 THE WITNESS: If by the ability you mean
24 the right to do it, and the -- yes.
25 BY MS. KLEINICK:
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2 Q. Was that done -- was that done in the '60s
3 after you got there, where characters that had been
4 introduced into one comic book line title were used
5 in other comic book lines or titles?
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Same objections.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 BY MS. KLEINICK:
9 Q. You testified that the writer was
10 responsible for writing the dialogue in the comic
11 books; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did artists ever suggest or submit
14 dialogue with their drawings?
15 A. Yes, the artists wrote what we call margin
16 notes in pencil that was supposed to sort of tell
17 Stan what they were thinking when they did the
18 story, since they were working on his story. And in
19 some of those notes, besides saying: This blows up
20 or something, sometimes the artist wrote either what
21 we call direct or indirect, you know, quotations.
22 Either suggested exact dialogue or approximate
23 dialogue.
24 Q. Who had the final say on what the dialogue
25 would be for the story?
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2 A. Well, the writer, subject to Stan.
3 Q. If a character that one -- that a writer
4 and artist first introduced into a Marvel story line
5 was going to be used in a different story line that
6 was being written by a different writer and artist,
7 did anyone have to go back and consult with the
8 original writer and artist to use that character?
9 MR. TOBEROFF: Incomplete hypothetical.
10 THE WITNESS: The person who made all
11 those decisions was Stan. You didn't have to
12 consult with the other person. As a matter of,
13 you know, courtesy or information, you might do
14 it; but it was not required.
15 BY MS. KLEINICK:
16 Q. Who decided which artist would do a cover
17 for a particular issue?
18 A. Stan.
19 Q. Were the covers reviewed by anyone before
20 they were published?
21 A. Well, they were reviewed by Stan, because
22 after they were drawn he wrote the cover copy and
23 then looked it over again after -- after the cover
24 was inked, either by the same artist or a different
25 one.
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2 Then it was -- then they were reviewed --
3 they were all reviewed eventually by Martin Goodman
4 as publisher, and very briefly as I said by Chip
5 Goodman, and, of course, from '72 to '74 by Stan
6 himself as publisher.
7 Q. From the time you arrived at Marvel from
8 '65 to '72 were changes ever made to the covers that
9 had been submitted by artists?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who would make those changes?
12 A. That depended upon circumstances. If the
13 original artist was there or if there was time to
14 either have him come in or to mail it or send it to
15 him, he might be asked to make the changes.
16 Sometimes, either if it was a minor change or if the
17 deadline needs were great or for any other reason,
18 Stan -- especially in consulting with the production
19 manager who had the responsibility with the schedule
20 -- would decide, you know, that it should be done by
21 a staff artist or perhaps a visiting freelance
22 artist who just came in. It really depended on what
23 the change was and what the time was.
24 Q. And if an artist's work -- if an artist's
25 work required that changes be made, would the artist
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2 have been paid for the original work that they
3 submitted?
4 MR. TOBEROFF: Incomplete hypothetical.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, the artist would have
6 been paid.
7 BY MS. KLEINICK:
8 Q. Between '65 and at least '72 you were paid
9 both a salary and for your editorial work and a page
10 rate for your the freelance writing that you did?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. How often were you paid?
13 A. That's something I am a little vague
14 about. I know that the salary checks were more
15 frequent than the freelance checks, but I'm -- they
16 both came on Fridays but not always at the same
17 time. I'm just not certain if we were paid -- I --
18 I feel we were probably paid salary checks every
19 week, and maybe the freelance was every other week;
20 but I'm not 100 percent sure of that. It all kind
21 of fades together after a while.
22 Q. Who decided what the page rates for
23 freelance writers and artists would be?
24 A. Well, Stan had the individual
25 responsibility; but, of course, it was subject to
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2 Q. Do you recall whether or not there was any
3 legend or stamp on the checks that were issued by
4 Marvel to you for your freelance work at the time
5 you first started working for Marvel in the 1960s?
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Leading; assumes facts.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, there were stamped
8 legends or paragraphs on the back of the checks.
9 I cannot remember offhand if they were on both
10 the freelance and the staff checks. I know they
11 were on the freelance checks, but I don't recall
12 whether they were on the others. Because I
13 never -- you know, after a while you just stop
14 paying attention to those. You just sign the
15 check and that was it.
16 BY MS. KLEINICK:
17 Q. Do you recall whether the first freelance
18 checks you received from Marvel had a legend or
19 stamp on the check?
20 A. I know that all the ones I remember did.
21 And I remember back pretty early, but, you know, I
22 couldn't swear the very first one did; but it, you
23 know -- you know, it seemed like it was an ongoing
24 policy.
25 Q. Do you recall what the legend said?
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2 A. Only in a general sense. I, of course,
3 read it; but, basically, it was saying that the
4 company had -- owned all the -- the copyrights and
5 all of the rights to the material for which I was
6 being -- material or work for which I was being
7 paid.
8 Q. And was that the same type of language
9 that you recall seeing on all of the checks that had
10 the legends on them?
11 A. Whenever I read it -- the exact wording
12 may have changed slightly from time, but it was
13 always, you know, words to that effect.
14 Q. Do you know whether the checks that were
15 given to other writers or freelance artists also had
16 a legend or a stamp on them?
17 A. I know that they did. I didn't see
18 everyone's checks, of course; but -- and it was my
19 understanding that they did.
20 Q. Did you ever discuss the check legends
21 with any of the other freelance writers or artists?
22 A. I don't recall specific, you know,
23 conversations in detail. But I know that from time
24 to time we would discuss them, because at first I
25 was a little puzzled seeing all this on here. You
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2 have been about two weeks or so.
3 Q. You testified that there was a script that
4 you wrote, I think it was on an Ironman script that
5 Stan didn't like and revised significantly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is that right?
8 A. Yes. He rewrote about 50 percent of it.
9 Q. Were you paid for the pages that you
10 submitted for that script?
11 A. That was one of the ones that I was doing
12 as part of the staff writer thing during those first
13 few weeks, so I wasn't paid separately. It was
14 counted as part of my staff writer salary, so I was
15 paid in that sense, for that and the Dr. Strange.
16 But I think -- I think those. I know Ironman was
17 and I think Dr. Strange's were all part of the
18 staff's salary.
19 Q. Were there any materials that you
20 submitted in your freelance capacity that were
21 modified by Stan?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you still paid for the pages that you
24 submitted?
25 A. Yes.
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3 THE WITNESS: I don't really know anything
4 about that, because I wasn't involved with it.
5 MS. KLEINICK: I'm about to get into a new
6 area so maybe we can take a five-minute break.
7 We have been going for about an hour.
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the end of
9 video number one of the deposition of Roy
10 Thomas. We are off the record at 12:06 p.m.
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is a continuation
12 of the deposition of Mr. Roy Thomas. This is
13 video number two. We're on the record at 12:18
14 p.m.
15 BY MS. KLEINICK:
16 Q. Mr. Thomas, when you first joined Marvel
17 in the 1960s, was it your understanding that the
18 copyrights to the materials you submitted for
19 publication would be owned by Marvel?
20 MR. TOBEROFF: Leading; assumes facts.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I assumed Marvel owned
22 the copyrights to whatever I wrote for them.
23 BY MS. KLEINICK:
24 Q. Was it your understanding throughout the
25 1960s and 1970s that the -- that Marvel would own
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2 the copyright to the materials that you submitted
3 for publication?
4 MR. TOBEROFF: Same objection.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was.
6 BY MS. KLEINICK:
7 Q. And is that true of the freelance
8 materials that you submitted for publication and the
9 materials that you submitted while in your editorial
10 capacity?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did Marvel have a policy to your knowledge
13 in the 1960s and early '70s that it owned the rights
14 to all of the materials that were submitted for
15 publication by either employees or freelancers?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understood it and
18 considered that -- considered it's always owning
19 the copyrights, yes.
20 BY MS. KLEINICK:
21 Q. Was that policy generally understood in
22 the comics industry in the 1960s and early '70s?
23 MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for speculation.
24 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge,
25 based on people I talked to over the years, it
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2 was generally known.
3 BY MS. KLEINICK:
4 Q. When you say "based on people I talked to
5 over the years," my question was: Was the policy
6 generally understood in the '60s and early '70s?
7 MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for speculation;
8 vague.
9 BY MS. KLEINICK:
10 Q. To your knowledge?
11 A. The artists and writers in the field --
12 those were the people I was talking about that I --
13 when I spoke to -- they knew that that is what the
14 -- what the company considered -- that it was
15 considered that -- and it was generally accepted
16 with some -- you know, some unhappiness about --
17 about the facts, perhaps; but it was accepted that
18 that was the conditions under which they were
19 working.
20 Q. Are you aware that there were certain
21 creator-owned comic lines established in the early
22 1970s?
23 A. Well, I'm aware of the fact that the
24 underground comics, for example, the -- which were
25 done by the youth counterculture and so forth, that
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2 A. I was not aware of any work he was doing
3 for any other publisher or whatever, except that
4 from time to time someone who was doing an article
5 -- a magazine or someone -- something that was doing
6 an article on Marvel might commission him to do a
7 drawing, like Esquire magazine did at one stage, and
8 perhaps some newspaper might have asked him to do it
9 separately, but using Marvel characters. I'm not
10 aware of anything he was doing that wasn't at least
11 Marvel related.
12 Q. In the 1960s to early '70s who decided
13 which books or series Kirby would work on?
14 A. Stan Lee.
15 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection to 1960s again.
16 We have a standing objection. 1960s means --
17 MS. KLEINICK: It's a standing objection.
18 MR. TOBEROFF: -- after July 1965; is that
19 correct?
20 THE WITNESS: I always meant it to be.
21 MS. KLEINICK: You made the standing
22 objection.
23 MR. TOBEROFF: I understand, but I don't
24 want the record to look like he's talking about
25 the early 1960s when he wasn't there.
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2 MS. KLEINICK: You made your objection.
3 THE WITNESS: I understand it as being
4 from '65 on, because I wouldn't know anything
5 about an earlier period. I wouldn't have been
6 paying as much attention.
7 BY MS. KLEINICK:
8 Q. Did Kirby receive assignments for
9 particular issues or titles?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who did he get those assignments from?
12 MR. TOBEROFF: Asked and answered.
13 THE WITNESS: He got the assignment from
14 Stan. It might come through Sol Brodski or
15 someone, but it was always from Stan. It was an
16 ongoing, you know, kind of thing. But it had to
17 be renewed every month.
18 BY MS. KLEINICK:
19 Q. Are you aware of any instance where Jack
20 Kirby submitted artwork for an issue for a series
21 that Stan or Sol had not already assigned him to?
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 BY MS. KLEINICK:
25 Q. And I think you testified that artists
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2 were -- artists submitted their finished pencils to
3 either Stan or to Sol for approval; is that right?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. He turned it in
6 directly to Stan or Sol Brodski, with the idea
7 that Sol would show them to Stan.
8 BY MS. KLEINICK:
9 Q. Did -- did artwork that was submitted by
10 freelance artists from the time that you got there
11 in 1965 through the early '70s need to be approved
12 by Stan or Sol before it got published?
13 A. Yes, it had to be approved by Stan. Sol
14 didn't really have the authority to approve anything
15 unless he felt that Stan -- he was always acting on
16 Stan's authority, but he wouldn't have approved
17 anything on his own authority.
18 Q. Was Jack Kirby required during this time
19 period to submit his artwork to Stan for approval?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was turned in to
22 Stan for -- for him as editor, to look at, to do
23 whatever he wanted to do.
24 BY MS. KLEINICK:
25 Q. Did Stan or any other editor ever make
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2 changes to the artwork that Kirby submitted for
3 publication?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did Stan or any other editor ever ask
6 Kirby to redo anything that he had submitted to your
7 knowledge?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. They did. It was not
10 a usual occurrence, but from time to time
11 something had to be redone.
12 BY MS. KLEINICK:
13 Q. In the instances where changes -- where
14 Stan determined that changes should be made to the
15 artwork that Kirby had submitted for publication by
16 Marvel, would Stan typically have Kirby make the
17 changes or --
18 A. Are you finished with the question?
19 Q. Would Stan typically have Kirby make the
20 changes?
21 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts; leading;
22 compound.
23 THE WITNESS: He would -- he might have
24 Jack make the change, if Jack were there and
25 available or if there was plenty of time. He
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2 might also -- especially, if it was a fairly
3 simple change or something that he felt could
4 easily be handled. At the office he might have
5 one of the staff artists or production people
6 make it -- whether it be Sol Brodski, the
7 production manager, John Romita, who was an
8 artist on staff, or one of the other staff
9 artists.
10 BY MS. KLEINICK:
11 Q. Do you recall specific instances where
12 artwork that had been submitted by -- withdrawn.
13 Do you recall specific instances where
14 Stan determined that artwork that Jack had submitted
15 for publication should be changed?
16 A. I don't recall early instances. I'd have
17 to go over -- looking over covers and maybe
18 something would occur to me. I do know that in the
19 late 1969 or '70 period there were a couple of
20 instances where Jack's artwork for one Thor issue
21 and one Fantastic Four issue that was turned in just
22 as he left the company were altered considerably.
23 Q. Are you aware of any instances where Stan
24 either made changes or directed that changes be made
25 to any of the covers that Kirby submitted for
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2 publications?
3 A. I know changes were made from time to
4 time. I would have to go over a lot of covers to
5 begin to remember specific instances. I know that
6 changes would be made. It might just be a hand or a
7 background detail, something like that. Or it might
8 be a little more substantial. I know they were done
9 but I don't recall the specific instances.
10 But that was done as a standard on any
11 artist's work, if Stan decided there was a change to
12 be made, he just had it made.
13 MS. KLEINICK: I think probably now is a
14 good time to take a break for lunch. It's 1:15,
15 if that works for everybody.
16 THE WITNESS: It works for me. I don't
17 need over 15 minutes or something. You work out
18 whatever you want between you.
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at
20 1:15 p.m.
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 2:12 p.m.
22 BY MS. KLEINICK:
23 Q. Mr. Thomas, when you started working for
24 Marvel in 1965 through 1972, did you see the -- any
25 of the finished artwork -- finished pencils that
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2 Jack Kirby submitted on any of the stories that he
3 was working on?
4 A. On many of them.
5 Q. Do you ever recall seeing any notes or
6 suggested dialogue that Mr. Kirby included on the
7 artwork pages he turned in?
8 A. Yes. Pretty invariably, some sort of
9 notes -- whether some of it suggested dialogue, some
10 of it was other comments or plot things.
11 Q. And do you know on the issues where Stan
12 was the writer whether he -- what he would do with
13 the notes and dialogue that Kirby put in the
14 margins?
15 A. He would utilize them to make sure that he
16 understood fully what -- what was going on based on
17 Jack's expansion of the plot. And then he would --
18 as far as the dialogue, he would utilize little
19 snippets of it, or he would make up his own, as far
20 as I could tell when I was examining it and when I
21 was proofreading and marks were often still there.
22 He used very little of the exact wording.
23 Q. I would like to mark as Thomas Exhibit --
24 I guess we are up to 15 -- a document bearing
25 production number Marvel 15988 through 16125.
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2 the beginning; whether that was verbal -- or as
3 it was in so many cases -- written.
4 That kind of was part of the
5 writing, and it's part of the payment.
6 Q. What is the -- have you ever heard
7 of the term Marvel Method?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is -- when you came to Marvel
10 in July of 1965, was the Marvel Method in use
11 at that time?
12 MS. KLEINICK: Objection.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What is the Marvel Method?
15 A. The Marvel Method -- sometimes also
16 called the Stan Lee Method -- but it didn't
17 totally originated with him, but mostly arose
18 in the -- I'm not really quite sure -- but it
19 was in place by the time I got there.
20 Because Stan became too busy to
21 write full scripts; and Larry Lieber, who had
22 been writing the scripts from his plots, you
23 know, was either too busy or was doing his
24 westerns and things and somewhat withdrawing
25 from doing the superheros.
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2 Stan was -- became -- would come up
3 with the idea for the plots, I guess, adapting
4 from the way he had originally done plots that
5 Larry would turn in the scripts.
6 And he simply would give those plots
7 to the artists, who would then draw the story,
8 break them down into pictures, expanding them,
9 whatever needed to be done to break them down
10 into pictures.
11 They would then turn them in, and he
12 would then add the -- he would dialogue it,
13 which means the dialogue and captions -- he
14 would add it later -- instead of writing what
15 we call script in advance, which is the more
16 usual method of writing comic books beforehand.
17 Q. Are you aware that Stan Lee has been
18 interviewed numerous times in which he has
19 described the Marvel Method?
20 A. I'm sure he has, yes. I'm aware of
21 that.
22 Q. Are you aware that Stan Lee, in
23 interviews, has stated that in 1960s, under the
24 Marvel Method, that artists were expected to
25 plot stories?
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2 MS. KLEINICK: Objection; states
3 facts not in evidence.
4 A. I haven't any knowledge of that.
5 It would have, you know, surprised
6 me; but if he did, he probably misspoke.
7 Q. Is it your understanding that at
8 Marvel, artists were -- part of their duties
9 were to plot the stories through the -- through
10 their artwork and through notes in the margins
11 and suggested dialogue?
13 A. We didn't use that, you know, think
14 about that much or use that term then.
15 But as I look back on it, and over
16 the years and analyze it, I realize they
17 were -- I would say co-plotting the stories. I
18 would not say plotting.
19 When you are given a story idea,
20 even if it is a few sentence, quite often, and
21 certainly if it was more, as it was in many
22 cases, you're certainly not plotting the story,
23 you were co-plotting.
24 Q. Starting at the time you started --
25 well, whether or not they were co-plotting or
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2 plotting -- is it correct that artists were, at
3 the time you got to Marvel in 1965, artists
4 were expected to plot stories?
6 A. They were expected to co-plot the
7 stories.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. As they -- to do whatever is
10 necessary to tell the story; that involved
11 adding elements for the plot.
12 So, I call it co-plotting.
13 Q. And in your testimony yesterday, you
14 spoke about artists being supplied with a story
15 either in a synopsis or verbally.
16 Which was more common during the
17 time you were working at Marvel?
18 A. Do you mean what I know of Stan
19 Lee?
20 Or what I know of, say, myself and
21 other writers who came along?
22 Q. I'm talking about Marvel as a whole.
24 A. Well, it would depend on the time.
25 And Marvel, as a whole, when I came
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2 work at Marvel; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know for certain, whether in
5 19 -- mid-1965, when you started work at
6 Marvel, that there was legend on the back of
7 your checks?
8 A. I, you know, I don't have a picture
9 in my mind of the very first check, but I do
10 know that -- from probably the beginning, and
11 certainly about the beginning; so, therefore, I
12 can only, you know, figure it must have been on
13 all of them that the legend was there.
14 I just probably, you know, I don't
15 remember this first check as such; but every
16 check I remember in those day, had that legend.
17 Q. But do you have a recollection of
18 checks in 1965 having that legend?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You have a specific recollection of
24 that?
25 A. Yes.
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EXHIBIT 4
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Contains Confidential Portions
Page 1
1
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., )
5 and MVL RIGHTS, LLC, )
)
6 Plaintiffs, )
) Case No.
7 vs. ) 10-141-CMKF
)
KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY, and )
9 SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
)
10 Defendants. )
----------------------------)
11 **REVISED**
12 PARTIALLY CONFIDENTIAL
13 PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
14 (Pages 66 through 70)
15 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LAWRENCE LIEBER
16 New York, New York
17 January 7, 2011
18
19
20
21
22
23 Reported by:
24 KATHY S. KLEPFER, RMR, RPR, CRR, CLR
25 JOB NO. 35338
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2 remember.
3 I -- I know I was doing, sometime
4 back, I did The Hulk newspaper strip. That
5 started out with my brother writing it and me
6 drawing it, penciling it, and it didn't do well
7 and he finally said I could write it, and I
8 wrote that for a while. But it didn't last too
9 long and but I don't remember when these things
10 were.
11 Q. Okay. We're going to focus today on
12 the period from 1958 to 1965, so that's fine.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. I think you mentioned that you started
15 working at Marvel in about 1958?
16 A. I could tell you, yeah, it was -- it
17 was -- well, I remember the date. This I happen
18 to remember. June, the end of June.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. About then, yeah. '58.
21 Q. And how did you come to work for
22 Marvel?
23 A. Stan offered me -- I had to earn a
24 living. I had been living with relatives and I
25 was going to the Art Students League studying
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2 Journey Into Mystery.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. They had about three stories in the
5 magazine, drawn by different people.
6 Q. And when you say you were writing the
7 stories, what exactly were you writing? I mean,
8 what would you -- what would you turn in? What
9 was the form it came in?
10 A. Oh, I would turn in the script.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. A script.
13 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what did a
14 script look like?
15 A. What did a script look like? Well, if
16 it was seven-page story, I would have each page
17 what was on the page. Usually, there were six
18 panels on a page and I would describe the action
19 in the first -- in the first panel. I would
20 have to -- I would have to describe the action
21 to the artist in the first panel, and then if
22 there was a caption like so and so entered, you
23 know, here or a monster was coming to town or
24 something, I would have to write the caption and
25 then I would have to write the dialogue.
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2 I also, you know, I also, in doing
3 this, I had to use the sense of the visual.
4 Comics are different from novels in that it's a
5 visual medium, so you have to be -- know that.
6 And it's also sequential, so the artist has to
7 have a sense of sequence and story. But both
8 are doing them, you know, about playing a part.
9 But a page of script would have panel
10 one, panel two, panel three. Didn't have to
11 have six panels. Sometimes if there was a lot
12 of action, you might play up that panel and only
13 have five, let's say, one panel across.
14 Q. Okay. So it wouldn't look like -- it
15 wouldn't just be a short story, it would be --
16 it would describe the --
17 A. Oh, no. It would be panel by panel.
18 No. No.
19 Q. And where would -- how would you get
20 the idea for the story? How would you know what
21 to write about?
22 A. Well, my brother made up the plot and
23 gave me a synopsis.
24 Q. And your brother is?
25 A. Stan Lee. I'm sorry.
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2 Q. And did all of the ideas for stories
3 come from Stan Lee or was there any other way
4 you would get ideas?
5 A. No, they all came from Stan Lee.
6 Q. Did you ever work on -- did you ever
7 get artwork that you would then write the
8 dialogue for, or did you always write the script
9 first?
10 A. I always wrote the script first,
11 except later on, I --
12 Q. We don't have to worry about -- I'm
13 focusing you, I'm sorry, I'm focusing you on the
14 period 1958 to 1965.
15 A. I would think during that period I
16 always did, but there was a time -- but I don't
17 know when it was, that's why I started to say
18 that -- when I once or twice did it differently.
19 But I always wrote a script here.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I always wrote the script.
22 Q. Who came up with the ideas for the
23 characters that would be in the story?
24 A. Stan. Well, wait a minute. You say
25 the characters?
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2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Stan. Yes. Yes. Stan, yes. Yes,
4 sure.
5 Q. Who was responsible for giving you the
6 assignment to write a particular script or a
7 particular --
8 A. Stan.
9 Q. When he would give you an assignment,
10 did you have a deadline or something that you
11 had to get it back by a certain time?
12 A. I remember -- well, I knew I had to do
13 it fast, and the only thing I remember a little
14 more vividly is with I think it was Jack Kirby
15 where he would say Jack needs work and he was
16 concerned about getting it to him. He said,
17 "Write this," and, you know, sometimes I would
18 write, and if it was weekend, I wouldn't wait
19 until Monday to bring it into the office to give
20 it to Stan, but I remember going over to the
21 West Side, the main post office at night and
22 mailing it.
23 And I was learning to write in the
24 early years so I wasn't too fast, and Jack was
25 very fast and a wonderful, wonderful artist. So
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2 I used to think, gee, well, you know, he draws
3 faster than I can write, but I -- I wrote and
4 mailed it to him.
5 Q. When you say you were learning to
6 write, what do you mean by that?
7 A. Well, when I started, as I said, Stan
8 said to me, you know, I said I'm not a writer.
9 When he's giving me this, I never thought of
10 writing. He said, and I repeat, he said, "I
11 read your letters and I can teach you what you
12 need." So he did. For the first year or two,
13 you know, I was learning. He would go over my
14 work and, you know, do things. After a while, I
15 did better and I -- and I enjoyed it.
16 Q. Did he ever make changes to your
17 stories or the scripts you would turn in?
18 A. In those days, yes. Changes in not in
19 the basic story or anything, because I knew how
20 to tell a story as well as anybody, I think, in
21 terms of sequentially and what to draw, what to
22 tell the artist. That was one area because I'm
23 wanting to be an artist myself, and I thought I
24 had a very good sense of the drama and what to
25 put down, what to draw.
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2 But writing was a little different.
3 Stan had his own way of writing and his own --
4 using as few words as possible, making them
5 count, and he -- he was a good editor. So I
6 learned from him. I learned well enough that I
7 was able to give a course some years later for
8 him.
9 Q. You mentioned that Stan would give you
10 the synopsis or the plot. How? How would he
11 give that to you? Would he --
12 A. As far as I remember, it was -- you
13 mean written. He would give it written to me.
14 Q. And then after you did the assignment
15 and you -- what would happen? Then you would
16 bring it to the office?
17 A. I would grow to the office with it.
18 Yeah, I would bring it to the office.
19 Q. And what would happen next?
20 A. He would go over it and, as I said, if
21 it were in the early years, he might correct or
22 change a line or two. But he always used it.
23 He, he -- I never had to, you know, go home and
24 do it again. He was very easy, he was showing
25 me. He said, "Oh, you could have said this.
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2 You could have done that," and he'd make some
3 little corrections. And as time went on, he had
4 fewer to make.
5 Q. Do you know what would happen to the
6 script after Stan went over it and made whatever
7 changes?
8 A. Yeah. It would be sent to the artist,
9 I would guess.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Whether it was, you know, the various
12 artists, yeah.
13 Q. Did you ever -- did you have any
14 contact with the story after you turned it in
15 and made whatever changes?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever have discussions with
18 artists about the stories or the scripts?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned Jack Kirby. Did you
21 ever have any interactions with Jack Kirby when
22 he was drawing scripts that you had done?
24 A. What's that?
25 Q. Let me take a step back then.
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2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know the story behind the
4 creation of Thor?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know who came up with the idea
7 for Thor?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you ever work on the comic Thor?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was your involvement?
12 A. I got the synopsis, the plot from
13 Stan, and I wrote the first script of Thor.
14 That was it.
15 Q. And when you say "the script," that's
16 what we were talking about before that told
17 panel by panel?
18 A. Panel by panel and description of it,
19 yes.
20 Q. Did you see any artwork on Thor before
21 you wrote the script?
22 A. I don't recall seeing any. I don't
23 know.
24 Q. Do you know who, after you turned in
25 the script, do you know who the artist was that
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2 drew Thor?
3 A. I believe it was Jack Kirby.
4 Q. Did you have any conversations or any
5 interactions with Jack Kirby about the Thor
6 book?
7 A. No, not that I recall.
8 Q. Did you come up with any of the names
9 in Thor?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did you come up with?
12 A. The civilian name of Don Blake I made
13 up. And I also came up with his hammer. I made
14 that, which people know about. My Uru hammer, I
15 created that.
16 Q. And where did you get the name Uru
17 hammer?
18 A. I just made it up, as far as I know.
19 I might have read it. I used to -- Stan liked
20 the way I made up names, civilian names, and I
21 used to, from my years of doing these, what do
22 you call it, these fantasy books, monster books,
23 and I used to look at the back of dictionary,
24 Miriam Webster had biographical names and
25 geographical, so I would look in towns and if I
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2 liked the town, I might put it. And it was kind
3 of fun and he liked what I did.
4 Now, I don't know if I found "Uru"
5 someplace or I just made it up or whatever. I
6 know I made it short because I felt that Thor
7 might be around a while and I was always
8 worrying about the letterer or somebody. I was
9 worrying about somebody else's feeling, and I
10 figured, well, if I make it U-R-U, there's not
11 that much to letter. And since nobody knows the
12 name of it, I'll make it a short name. So
13 that's why I did that.
14 And Don Blake I just thought sounded
15 like a doctor and, you know, to fit the
16 personality. I tried to get names that fit
17 the -- the person.
18 Q. Who came up with the name Thor, the
19 hero name?
20 A. Not me. I don't know. Stan, I guess.
21 But I don't -- yeah, yeah, Stan.
22 Q. And just to follow up on something you
23 said, you mentioned a letterer, what was the job
24 of the letterer?
25 A. Well, when the -- when the -- I give a
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2 and I made it up." He looked a little surprised
3 and walked away, and then I stopped writing it
4 and he would -- I don't know if he was writing
5 it or somebody else, but they gave it another
6 name, which I believe was the authentic name
7 from Bulfinch's Mythology. So ...
8 Q. Was it the usual practice that you
9 would write a book for a few issues and then you
10 would move on to something else?
11 A. It seems that way. You know, I don't
12 remember. I -- I've been looking at the books
13 and it seems with a few of them I did. I -- I
14 wrote a few books, the first issue or the first
15 couple issues, yes. I don't, yeah, I don't know
16 how it came about that way and why I moved on.
17 I don't recall.
18 Q. Who would make the decision about who
19 was going to write the scripts for a book?
20 A. It would be Stan, I'm sure, as the
21 editor.
22 Q. Are you familiar with a comic called
23 Iron Man?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what was your involvement with
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2 Iron Man?
3 A. I wrote the first script for Iron Man
4 also.
5 Q. And who asked you to write the first
6 script for Iron Man?
7 A. Stan. Stan Lee.
8 Q. Stan Lee. And what -- what did he
9 provide you with or what did he ask you to do?
11 A. I'm sorry, I --
12 Q. If you understand the question, you
13 can --
14 MR. TOBEROFF: That's okay. I'm just
15 objecting for the record.
16 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
17 MS. SINGER: Lawyer stuff.
18 A. What was the question, if I may?
19 Q. Fair enough. How, how did you come to
20 write the first script for Iron Man?
21 A. He made up a character and he
22 wanted -- and he asked me to write it. And he
23 told me the plot, you know, somehow I got
24 synopsis, and I -- and I wrote it. And again, I
25 made up the civilian name.
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2 Q. And the "he" there is Stan Lee?
3 A. Thank me for Anthony Stark.
4 I'm sorry, what?
5 Q. I'm sorry, the "he" in that was Stan
6 Lee?
7 A. Yes, Stan Lee.
8 Q. So you came up with the name Anthony
9 Stark?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And where did you come up with that
12 name?
13 A. I don't know, but I guess I -- I had
14 been writing so many. Again, either I just made
15 it up or I felt it was a name that would fit a
16 guy who was very, very rich and a lady -- you
17 know, I wanted -- I thought it sounded
18 distinguished and wealthy or something. Anthony
19 Stark.
20 Q. I agree. I like it.
21 After you wrote the first -- strike
22 that. I'm sorry. And the script that you wrote
23 for Iron Man, was that a full script with the
24 panel breakdown?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
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2 Q. Okay. After you finished writing the
3 first script for Iron Man, what happened? What
4 did you do next with the script?
5 A. I sent it to the artist who -- yeah.
6 Or else I -- I either brought it to the office
7 and handed it to Stan, who must have sent it, or
8 else I sent it. I don't know.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Probably I brought it to the office, I
11 would say.
12 Q. Do you know who the artist was who
13 drew the first Iron Man?
14 A. You know, I don't remember. It was
15 either Jack or Don Heck, I think. Other people
16 know, and if I had the book, I could tell you.
17 I think it might have been Don Heck, but I'm not
18 sure.
19 Q. Did you ever look at the penciled
20 drawings after or look at the inked drawings or
21 look at the final book after you had turned in
22 the script? Did you look at a book again?
23 A. No, I would say I don't recall looking
24 at the book. I don't recall anything until the
25 book came out and I got a copy of it and saw.
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2 There would be no reason for me to look at it.
3 Q. Okay. Do you know whether -- strike
4 that. I'm sorry.
5 Did you come up with any of the other
6 elements of Iron Man?
7 A. You mean the -- in the story parts? I
8 don't recall.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I really don't.
11 Q. Let's talk about Ant-Man.
12 A. That was another one I wrote, and I
13 came up with his name too.
14 Q. What was Ant-Man's name?
15 A. Henry Pym, P-Y-M.
16 Q. And how did you come up with his name?
17 A. I think I probably -- in the back of
18 Miriam Webster somewhere there was somebody Pym.
19 And I thought "Henry" sounded like a scientist
20 and "Pym" made it catching and different and
21 exotic. So I came up with that.
22 Q. How -- what was your involvement,
23 besides coming up with the name Henry Pym, what
24 was your involvement?
25 A. I think I wrote the first -- the first
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2 script. I think I did. I believe I did.
3 Q. And how did you come to write the
4 first script?
5 A. The same way as the other. Stan had
6 said he had an idea for a character, he wanted
7 to write the story and for one of the books and
8 told me or gave me, you know, a synopsis and I
9 went home and wrote it.
10 Q. Do you remember what the plot was for
11 the first Ant-Man?
12 A. No. No. I'm sorry, I don't.
13 Q. What did you do after you finished
14 writing the script for the first Ant-Man?
15 A. Well, either I sent it to the person.
16 I think the Ant-Man, I think it was Jack Kirby
17 who drew it, so I would have either sent it to
18 him, if it was late, or I would have brought it
19 to the office and then handed it to Stan.
20 Q. And just to be clear, the -- when you
21 wrote the script for Ant-Man, that was also with
22 the full breakdown of the panels?
23 A. I believe so.
24 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection to form.
25 Q. That's fine. He just didn't like my
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2 you missed Milly when she was handing out the
3 checks, then you went to bookkeeping and went
4 over to Milly and she opened her drawer and
5 said, "Here's your check." But if you didn't
6 come into the office, I don't remember if they
7 sent them to you. Maybe they then sent them to
8 you at home. I -- I don't recall getting it at
9 home. I know I got paid.
10 Q. That was my next question. Did you
11 get paid for all the work you did for Marvel?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection.
14 Q. Do you know what Milly's last name
15 was? Do you remember?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. No.
19 Q. When you received -- were you always
20 paid by check from Marvel?
21 A. You mean as opposed to cash?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. No. It was always check. Always
24 check.
25 Q. Do you recall --
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2 MR. TOBEROFF: Just a second. Could
3 you do me a favor and just pause before
4 answering a question so I have room to
5 object before? I'm supposed to object
6 before you answer.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: I'm supposed to object
9 before you answer.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 MR. TOBEROFF: Sometimes if you answer
12 too rapidly, I would be talking over you. I
13 don't want to do that.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 BY MS. SINGER:
17 Q. When you would receive a check from
18 Marvel, was there anything printed on the check
19 besides, you know, your name and the amount?
20 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection.
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Go ahead.
24 A. I paused.
25 Q. Good work.
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2 Was there anything, just to be clear
3 so for the record --
4 A. Yes, there was something printed on
5 the back.
6 Q. And what was printed on the back of
7 the check?
8 A. I don't recall the exact words, but
9 the gist of it was that I was giving up all
10 rights to it, that the work, you know, now is
11 with the company and -- and I don't remember the
12 exact wording, but I think it was something
13 "giving up your rights" or "all rights." That
14 was the way I interpreted it anyway. I didn't
15 think much about it because I felt the only
16 reason I was doing it was to get paid, you know.
17 Q. And do you recall that those words or
18 something to that effect being on the back of
19 every check you got from Marvel for that period
20 from 1958 to '65?
21 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection as to form.
22 A. I don't know the year, you know, all
23 the years and I don't know if it was. I
24 remember in the early years seeing it.
25 Afterwards, I had been so used to it that I
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2 wouldn't have noticed if it was still there or
3 not. I didn't think anything of it, so I don't
4 remember if it lasted until '65 or when it
5 stopped or occasionally or whatever.
6 Q. Do you have any recollection that it
7 stopped at some point?
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. Let's talk about The Rawhide Kid. Did
10 you have any involvement in The Rawhide Kid?
11 A. Oh, yes. Yes. I wrote The Rawhide
12 Kid and I drew it. It had been written, yeah,
13 before me by Stan and Jack Kirby.
14 Q. So did you write the first issue of
15 The Rawhide Kid?
16 A. No. No. No. No, I -- I, no, it --
17 it came when Jack moved on to doing
18 super-heroes.
19 Q. What -- how did you come to work on
20 Rawhide Kid?
21 A. I don't remember whether I initiated
22 it or Stan offered it to me. I -- I liked -- it
23 was an opportunity for me to write and draw the
24 same strip, and that appealed to me. I felt I
25 would have more control over it. And at that
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2 MS. SINGER: 19 out of 20 -- 19 out of
3 30, I'm sorry. The very last line on page
4 19.
5 MR. TOBEROFF: "Getting back to the
6 writing aspect"?
7 MS. SINGER: Yes, carrying over.
8 Q. And you say, "They were full scripts
9 and I didn't think of Jack when I wrote it at
10 all. All I thought of was will Stan like this
11 or will he tell me, 'Larry, this isn't good, you
12 can't do this.' I didn't want to hear something
13 like that."
14 Is that consistent with your
15 recollection?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. There's a reference here to "Marvel
18 style." Do you know what that is?
19 A. I believe so. You want me --
20 Q. What's your understanding of what
21 Marvel style was?
22 A. The Marvel style is what Stan did, or
23 I think I said in the interview it began around
24 the time of the super-heroes and with Jack
25 Kirby, perhaps with others, I don't know. Jack
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2 might have been -- I think Jack was the first.
3 And where he would discuss a story or a plot
4 with the artist and the artist would write it --
5 not write, I'm sorry. The artist would lay it
6 out and draw it with enough knowledge about what
7 the story is and leave room for dialogue to come
8 later.
9 Q. And the "he" there was Stan Lee?
10 A. I'm sorry?
11 Q. The "he" when you said "he"?
12 A. Stan Lee. It would be Stan Lee and
13 the artist.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Yeah, that would be -- and I think
16 that was called the Marvel style.
17 Q. The way -- when we talked about the
18 first script for Iron Man and the first script
19 for Thor and the first script for Ant-Man, were
20 those Marvel style?
21 A. No.
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection to form.
23 Q. Was the first scripts for Marvel --
24 strike that. Let me start again.
25 Were the scripts that you wrote for
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2 Iron Man, Ant-Man and Thor, were those Marvel
3 style?
4 A. No.
5 MS. SINGER: Can we take just go off
6 the record for just two minutes?
7 MR. TOBEROFF: Sure.
8 MS. SINGER: Because I might be done.
9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:07
10 P.M. We're now off the record.
11 (Pause in the proceedings.)
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
13 12:07 -- I'm sorry, 12:08 P.M. We're now on
14 the record.
15 MS. SINGER: Mr. Lieber, I have no
16 further questions. So now it is Mr.
17 Toberoff's turn.
18 MR. TOBEROFF: Why don't we take a
19 five-minute break to organize some of the
20 exhibits.
21 MS. SINGER: Okay.
22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes tape
23 number 1. The time is 12:08 P.M. We are
24 now off the record.
25 (Recess.)
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EXHIBIT 5
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3

)
6 PLAINTIFFS, )
)
7 vs. ) No. 10-141-CMKF
)
NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
9 )
DEFENDANTS. )
10 ___________________________________)
11
12
13
14 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF NEAL KIRBY

15 Los Angeles, California
16 Wednesday, June 30, 2010
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 Reported by:
24 SUSAN A. SULLIVAN, CSR #3522, RPR, CRR
25 JOB NO. 31595
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1 A That's correct.
2 Q Would you state their full names and birth
3 dates for me if you can.
4 A My oldest sister is Susan. Her birth date
5 is December 6, 1945. My sister who is slightly
6 younger than me is Barbara. Her birthday is I
7 believe November 26th and I think that -- I think she
8 was born in '53. And my youngest sister is Lisa and
9 I believe her birthday, I'm going with September 6th
10 on this one.
11 Q September 6th?
12 A If I recall right. Well, let's see. She
13 is about 13 years younger than I am so that would
14 be -- she was probably born in '61, I guess.
15 Q Somewhere I had a note that Barbara was
16 born in '52. Is that possible?
17 A It is possible, yes.
18 Q And what is your birth date?
19 A My birthday is May 25th, '48.
20 Q Do you have any children?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q How many?
23 A I have two children by my first marriage
24 and one with my current wife.
25 Q And would you just give me the names of
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1 MR. TOBEROFF: Let's take a short break.
2 MR. FLEISCHER: Let's go off the record.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the end of
4 DVD Number 1. Off video at 11:42 a.m.
5 (Recess)
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video at 11:51
7 a.m. This marks the beginning of DVD Number 2
8 of the video deposition of Neal Kirby.
9 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
10 Q Mr. Kirby, have you ever discussed the
11 termination notices which are the subject of this
12 lawsuit with Mr. Evanier?
13 A No, not with Mr. Evanier.
14 Q Have you ever discussed the termination
15 notices with anyone other than Mr. Toberoff or a
16 member of his law firm?
17 A Not that I can recall, no.
18 Q Did you ever attend any meetings between
19 Mr. -- you are Mr. Kirby -- between Jack Kirby and
20 anyone at Marvel at the time Mr. Kirby was working
21 for Marvel?
22 A No, I was not -- if I went into the office,
23 I wasn't party to any meeting.
24 Q I'm sorry, you said you went with him to
25 the office but you didn't attend any meetings?
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1 A Yes, as a child, as a kid occasionally my
2 parents were nice enough to let me play hooky once in
3 awhile and I would go sit in with my father if he had
4 to go and bring in artwork and go up to Marvel's
5 office and just kind of sit and wait for him; a
6 little bit later go to the zoo or something.
7 Q Did you have an understanding at that time
8 about who your father was meeting with when he went
9 to the offices of Marvel?
10 A I would just assume he would be meeting
11 with Stan Lee or some other person in charge, I
12 guess.
13 Q Do you have any recollection of discussing
14 with your father any of the meetings he had had with
15 Stan Lee?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q Was it your father's practice to talk with
18 you about the subject of those meetings or not?
19 A No, not really. I don't recall right now.
20 Q Did you have an understanding of the
21 purpose of the meetings your father was having with
22 Mr. Lee or anyone else who might have been behind
23 that closed door?
24 A Well, I suppose you might say as a kid it
25 was my understanding he was bringing his artwork to
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1 New York, gave it to them; they looked at it, they
2 bought it or didn't and on he went.
3 Q Did you have any understanding at the time
4 that part of the function of the meetings was to
5 discuss future assignments or work?
7 A No, I didn't.
8 Q Am I correct then that you have no
9 knowledge whatsoever of any discussions between your
10 father and Stan Lee concerning your father's work for
11 Marvel?
12 A I was never a party to any discussion.
13 Q Did your father ever tell you anything Mr.
14 Lee had said to him?
15 A He never -- I don't recall. I don't recall
16 anything specific where my father said something like
17 Stan said this or anything, no.
18 Q Do you have any recollection of your father
19 bringing in artwork that Marvel did not pay for?
20 A Yes, I do because, I know from time to time
21 it was kind of a topic of discussion at the dinner
22 table where my father would be upset, he might have
23 brought in some pages and whatever might have been
24 something that they didn't like with the pages and
25 they had to redo them and I would know he and my
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1 don't recollect specifically, only that it was at
2 dinner so I would assume that Susan and Barbara might
3 have been there.
4 Q Are there any documents or drawings or
5 articles that you could refer to to refresh your
6 recollection of which you are aware about the
7 specifics of the discussions that you were privy to
8 between your mother and father?
9 A I'm not aware of any, no.
10 Q Did you have an understanding one way or
11 another as to whether the work your father presented
12 to Marvel was being done as a result of a request by
13 Marvel that your father do the work?
14 A I don't recall as a child, you know,
15 knowing that, knowing the circumstances under which
16 he did the work, only that he did do the work and
17 occasionally brought into New York City. Like I
18 said, it was my understanding at the time, he would
19 bring it in, they would look at it, they would buy it
20 or they didn't.
21 Q Apart from this one Thor drawing, can you
22 recall any instance that you witnessed that your
23 father brought in work that he did not -- that he
24 returned home with?
25 A Not when I was with him, no.
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1 co-created for other publishers.
2 A I believe characters such as Fighting
3 American, there were some horror comics that he did,
4 Black Magic and Young Romance during the late
5 forties, early fifties, some -- honestly I don't know
6 if it was the Marvel or pre-Marvel entity in terms of
7 the characters but Challengers of the Unknown, The
8 Fly which he did with Joe Simon. Oh, I'm sorry, am I
9 not -- I'm moving out of the way there.
10 He did, let's see, Ant-Man.
11 Q Ant-Man, did you say?
12 A I believe it was called Ant-Man, yes.
13 Q A-n-t?
14 A A-n-t, yes.
15 Q Do you know whether Ant-Man was published
16 by Marvel?
17 A No, I don't. I don't know who the
18 publisher is.
19 Q Okay. Any others come to mind?
20 A Not that I -- I'm sure that there are many
21 more. I can't recall any at this particular moment.
22 Q Do you have any firsthand knowledge of your
23 father working on any character or story which is the
24 subject of one of the termination notices here before
25 being asked by Stan Lee or someone else at Marvel to
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1 Q But my question is do you know whether any
2 of those characters was created -- do you have
3 knowledge one way or the other as to whether those
4 characters were created pursuant to specific
5 assignments or commissions by Marvel?
6 A No, I don't.
7 Q Forgive me if I've asked this before, it is
8 not my intention to repeat questions, but did your
9 father ever discuss with you or in your presence any
10 assignments he had received from Marvel or Stan Lee?
11 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts not in
12 evidence.
13 A Not that I can recollect right now.
14 Q Do you know how your father was paid for
15 the work he did and was published by Marvel?
16 A Well, like I said previously, he would
17 bring the work when I was there, anyway, he would
18 bring the work to New York, bring in the pages, and I
19 believe he got paid by check in the mail.
20 Q Do you know the basis for the payments that
21 he received for the work?
22 A He got paid by the page that they bought.
23 Q And was that something that you knew at the
24 time or something that you have learned since?
25 A No, I knew that at the time.
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1 Q Did you have an understanding at the time
2 that that was consistent with the way other comic
3 book artists were paid?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q And how did you come by that understanding?
6 A In just by kind of, you know, discussion.
7 I could not tell you the specific time or instance
8 but I know from time to time, you know, he said
9 that's how he got paid, by the page.
10 Q Did you have an understanding at the time
11 how much he was being paid by the page?
12 A No, I didn't.
13 Q Did he ever discuss financial matters in
14 your presence?
15 A No.
16 MR. TOBEROFF: Excuse me. Give me time to
17 object to the question before you answer.
18 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
19 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague and ambiguous as to
20 "financial matters."
21 A If you are referring to how much he got
22 paid, no.
23 Q Did he ever discuss how much he got paid in
24 relation to other comic book artists?
25 A No.
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1 in front of me, if that's what you are referring to.
2 Q You indicated that you weren't privy to the
3 conversations that occurred between your father and
4 Stan Lee or others at Marvel even when you were at
5 the offices.
6 A That's correct.
7 Q But when he came home or when he left the
8 Marvel office and you were together did he ever
9 indicate that he had been asked to make changes in
10 pages?
11 A I don't recall him like at any particular
12 time when I was watching him draw, I don't recall him
13 at any particular time going, "Oh, I need to make
14 this change because they asked me to," no.
15 Q Is it possible that your father had
16 delivered work to Marvel and was asked to make
17 changes and, in fact, took the work home and did make
18 changes and resubmitted it?
20 A I would have no way of knowing that.
21 MR. FLEISCHER: Marc, your objections are
22 speaking objections and I have not taken issue
23 with it but the objection that you are supposed
24 to make is objection to form. You are not
25 supposed to say assumes facts, you are not
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1 A Yes. Because he had either created or
2 co-created most of their characters, if not all of
3 their characters during that timeframe. If it wasn't
4 for him the company might have and probably would
5 have gone down the tubes. And he put all of his
6 heart and work and effort, even 16, hours a day, I
7 remember that, doing all this work and got paid by
8 the page and Marvel and other people at Marvel got
9 very wealthy.
10 Q Was she referring to anyone in particular
11 when she said Marvel and other people at Marvel got
12 wealthy?
13 A Well, in particular Stan Lee and, you know,
14 Marvel as a corporate entity, yes. And I should say,
15 I would like to say it wasn't so much the matter of
16 the wealth, that was probably a poor choice of words
17 on my part. I think the genuine really cause for her
18 upset is that he never really got due credit for what
19 he did.
20 Q Did she ever indicate to you that he had
21 been treated differently than other talented comic
22 book creators during the time that he was working for
23 Marvel and other publishers?
24 A Treated differently in what respect?
25 Q Either in terms of payment or credit or any
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1 other aspect of the work.
3 A I don't recall ever discussing with my
4 mother how much my father was paid by the page in
5 relation to any other artist, no.
6 Q Did you have an understanding that your
7 father -- withdrawn.
8 Did you have an understanding that other
9 comic book artists were paid by the page during the
10 time that your father worked in the industry?
11 A Yes. I guess it was you might say common
12 knowledge that that's how comic book artists were
13 paid.
14 Q And was it your understanding that the
15 writers of comic books were also paid by the page?
16 A That I had no knowledge of.
17 Q Do you recall ever having a discussion with
18 your father with respect to the contribution, if any,
19 that Stan Lee or other writers at Marvel had to the
20 stories that he was working on?
21 A I know my father was -- there were times
22 when he was visibly upset if Stan Lee, say, would
23 take credit for something my father was done or
24 didn't get due credit for something that my father
25 had done.
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1 the course of, I don't know from, maybe when I was
2 eight years old onward, maybe even younger, up until
3 I left for college it was kind of my daily habit. I
4 would come home from school, go downstairs, you know,
5 say hi to my father, see what he was working on, you
6 know. He would kind of tell me what he was drawing,
7 what he was doing.
8 I would go upstairs, get a snack, get my
9 books and I would go back down in the basement to do
10 my homework because I kind of liked being in
11 proximity. And I was doing homework, go into the
12 studio and watch, go back out and do homework. And
13 eventually we would get my homework done and we would
14 watch T.V. together. At least I watched T.V. while
15 he worked.
16 Q Now did your father ever discuss with you
17 any deadlines he had in connection with the work that
18 he was doing for Marvel?
19 A He would occasionally say that, you know,
20 that he had to get a certain story in by a certain
21 day or something to that effect.
22 Q And I think you said that at certain points
23 in time your father often worked into the -- worked
24 16- to 18-hour days.
25 A Yes.
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1 Q If I recall your testimony earlier.
2 A Uh-huh.
3 Q Do you know why he worked those long hours?
4 A He worked those long hours because he was
5 getting paid by the page. The more pages he could
6 do, the more money he earned.
7 Q Do you recall whether those hours had
8 anything to do with his effort to meet specific
9 deadlines?
10 A Specifically, I couldn't say. Those long
11 hours were consistent over the years. It wasn't like
12 a deadline coming up, I'm going to work long hours.
13 Those were his consistent hours.
14 Q Would you say those were his consistent
15 hours between 1958 and 1963?
16 A I would say at least in the period of my
17 good memory, if you wanted to do that, at least in
18 the -- through, say, early sixties through when I
19 went off to college, yes.
20 Q Just to set the context for how old you
21 were at the time, in 1958 you would have been 10,
22 correct?
23 A 10, yes.
24 Q And when would you put the point at which
25 your recollection is its best with regard to the
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1 events concerning your father's work?
2 A Probably from that point to when I went,
3 left for college in September of '66, and my
4 recollection during those years was that he always
5 kept very long work hours. He would start working
6 around lunchtime usually and would work until usually
7 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. Sometimes -- sometimes
8 he had to start earlier and sometimes he would go
9 later. But always put in a lot of hours, usually
10 six, seven days a week. There wasn't any weekend he
11 didn't work.
12 Q Did you have any sense at the time, at any
13 point between the time that you were 10 and you went
14 off to college as to where in the spectrum of comic
15 book artists' compensation your father stood?
16 A At that time, no.
17 Q Did you later come to have an understanding
18 about where he stood in the spectrum from low to high
19 of compensation during those years?
20 A I never had an understanding or I never
21 knew where he stood let's say in relation to a
22 specific artist and I never knew exactly how much he
23 got paid for, you know, per page. I mean, however,
24 obviously I -- they had a house and we all ate every
25 day so I assume he made enough money.
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1 your father confided work-related issues in the
2 fifties or sixties at any time?
3 A No, I'm not aware of any. There might have
4 been but not that I can recall.
5 Q You were never present at a conversation
6 where you heard your father discussing work issues
7 with another non-family member; is that correct?
8 A Correct. That would be correct.
9 Q I want to go through a few specifics with
10 regard to some of the characters that are the subject
11 of the termination notices at issue in this and let
12 me start with Spider-Man.
13 Do you have any information with regard to
14 the circumstances under which the Spider-Man
15 character was created?
16 A I'm not -- I'm not aware of any specific
17 information as to the creation of Spider-Man.
18 Q Do you know if your father created the
19 Spider-Man character or co-created the Spider-Man
20 character?
21 A I'm aware that he had a hand in the
22 beginnings of the character and in the design of the
23 character. You know, again, as to meetings that
24 might have taken place, I wouldn't have been privy to
25 that.
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1 Spider-Man was created with your sister Lisa?
2 A No, I haven't, that I can recall.
3 Q How about with Barbara or Susan?
4 A No, I don't recall discussing that with
5 them.
6 Q Do you have any specific information with
7 regard to your father's contribution, if any, to the
8 actual creation of the character other than penciling
9 the cover for the first issue?
10 A That's -- he may have done more. I don't
11 have, that I can recall, any other specific
12 information.
13 Q Were you ever told by your father that he
14 had been assigned to draw the first Spider-Man and
15 that his style of drawing was ultimately determined
16 by Stan Lee to be too heroic for the character?
18 A If I recall at the time Spider-Man was
19 being created and the script started, I know he did
20 mention that because of all the other strips that he
21 was doing, FF and Thor and so on, that he was too
22 busy to do Spider-Man.
23 Q And did he tell you that at the time?
24 A I believe it did come up. Again, I
25 couldn't recall a specific date or time or how the
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1 he would get upset when Spider-Man was brought up, so
2 to speak, you know, that, again, he and others
3 involved basically didn't get any credit.
4 Q Of your own firsthand knowledge do you know
5 whether the concept for the Spider-Man character and
6 the basic powers of a Spider-Man character were
7 conceptualized initially by Stan Lee or someone else?
8 A Well, I would say my firsthand knowledge,
9 my first guess would be my father just because of
10 his -- just his knowledge of science, his use of
11 science fiction in stories, just in his if you want
12 to call it pattern, for lack of a better word, of how
13 do you get a human to have super powers, you know,
14 without direct intervention from God. Well, the best
15 way to do it was somehow altering DNA which was the
16 big thing at the time with the Cold War going on and
17 so on.
18 Q Now is it true that what you just described
19 is your own speculation and, in fact, is not based on
20 your knowledge of how the idea was first floated?
21 A Well, I'd say it is based on my knowledge
22 of how my father worked and his knowledge and in my
23 personal discussions with him at the time I certainly
24 felt that way.
25 Q Well, leaving aside how you felt, can you
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1 testify as a matter of fact that Stan Lee didn't come
2 to your father initially with the idea of the
3 Spider-Man character?
4 A Well, I can't -- I can't say what might or
5 might not have been discussed between my father and
6 Stan Lee or Stan Lee and anybody else given that I
7 was a teenager and not privy to those discussions.
8 MR. FLEISCHER: Would you mark this as
9 Kirby 2.
11 (Neal Kirby Exhibit 2, a document, marked
12 for identification, as of this date.)
13 Q Mr. Kirby, I place before you an article
14 marked for identification as Neal Kirby Exhibit 2.
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Have you ever seen the story reflected in
17 this exhibit?
18 A I will let you know as soon as I read it.
19 MR. TOBEROFF: It is hard to tell looking
20 at the exhibit what it is. Can you tell me what
21 this is? Or I should say this looks like a blog
22 entry.
23 MR. FLEISCHER: Apart from what it appears
24 to be on the face of it, I can't offer you any
25 information about it.
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1 Q Have you ever seen the interview your
2 father appears to have given to The Spirit creator
3 Will Eisner concerning the Spider-Man character?
5 evidence.
6 A No, I haven't seen that interview.
7 Q What information, if any, Mr. Kirby, do you
8 have concerning the circumstances of the creation of
9 the Iron Man character?
10 A I'm trying to recall. At this time I don't
11 have any recollection of Iron Man specifically, how
12 that came about.
13 Q Do you know what contribution, if any, your
14 father made to the Iron Man character?
15 A Again, I believe at the very least, I
16 believe he designed the costume. As to the initial
17 idea and creation of the character, I'm sure at the
18 very least he probably contributed to that.
19 Q Is that just shear speculation on your
20 part?
21 A Well, I wouldn't call it speculation, I
22 would call it based on -- based on the knowledge of
23 that he pretty much had a hand in everything Marvel
24 did and based on my knowledge of his creativity.
25 Q Well, was he the artist assigned to draw
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1 the initial issue of Iron Man?
2 A That I do not know.
3 Q Do you have any basis to contradict Mr.
4 Lee's testimony that the concept for the Iron Man
5 character was his?
6 A Do I have any basis for that? I have the
7 basis that I know my father's creativity versus Mr.
8 Lee's creativity and Mr. Lee was an excellent
9 marketer, he was an excellent manager, excellent
10 self-promoter. I honestly don't believe he had any
11 creative ability.
12 Q You've never met Mr. Lee, have you?
13 A When I was younger, yes, I met him several
14 times.
15 Q And is it on the basis of your assessment
16 of him as a teenager that you make that statement
17 that he wasn't creative?
18 A It is on that basis. It is on the basis
19 of, you know, having seen and read some of his
20 interviews and so on.
21 Q Am I correct that you have no firsthand
22 knowledge about whose idea the Iron Man character
23 was; is that correct?
24 A I cannot recall at this moment.
25 Q Do you recall being aware that Don Hecht
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1 was the artist who drew the first issue of Iron Man?
2 A He may have been. You know, I'm not aware
3 of who drew the first issue.
4 Q Do you know whether the cover for the Iron
5 Man book that your father did was created before or
6 after the panels for the first publication were
7 created?
8 A I don't have any recollection of that.
9 Q Are you saying -- when you say you don't
10 have any recollection, do you believe at one point
11 you knew and have forgotten or are you saying that
12 you never knew?
13 A No, I'm saying that I don't remember. I
14 may have at one point in the past. Right at this
15 moment I don't recall.
16 Q Is there anything of which you are aware
17 that would refresh your recollection about that
18 subject?
19 A Well, I don't know. I suppose we can get a
20 Psychology 101 book and get out all the standard
21 memory refreshers. But it is possible something
22 could pop up in the future that might refresh my
23 memory, I don't know.
24 Q You are not aware of any document or
25 drawing or anything that currently exists of which
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1 you are aware that could refresh your recollection;
2 is that correct?
3 A I have not seen anything recently that I
4 would say would, can refresh my memory.
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Before you go on to a new
6 character, there was a name you mentioned in
7 connection with Exhibit 2 and I just wanted
8 to -- rather than having her go back to the
9 record can you tell me that name.
10 MR. FLEISCHER: Will Eisner?
11 MR. TOBEROFF: No, the person who --
12 MR. FLEISCHER: Al Nickerson?
13 MR. TOBEROFF: Yeah.
14 MR. FLEISCHER: It is in the article
15 itself.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have to change tapes
17 in about five minutes.
18 MR. TOBEROFF: I'm sorry, I didn't see it.
19 Q Mr. Kirby, a minute ago you said something
20 to the effect that your father had a hand in
21 everything that Marvel did. During what period of
22 time were you referring?
23 A Referring to the time late fifties to early
24 sixties.
25 Q And how do you know for a fact that that
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1 was the case?
2 A Just my, again, my understanding of the
3 way -- the way my father operated and contributed
4 ideas and came up with and created ideas.
5 Q Anything else on which you make that
6 statement?
7 A And, again, based on the fact I don't know
8 what other creative forces at Marvel existed other
9 than my father at that period of time.
10 Q Well, not being aware of what other
11 creative forces existed, how can you make that
12 statement?
13 MR. TOBEROFF: Argumentative.
14 A Again, just my -- just my knowledge and
15 basis of, you know, having been around my father and
16 at the time that the things were, at Marvel things
17 were happening. I don't know another way of wording
18 it.
19 Q Well, you are suggesting that there was no
20 other creative force at Marvel other than your
21 father. Do you have a basis for that understanding?
22 A Well, in terms of -- I think if you look at
23 Marvel after my father left I'm not sure, and, again,
24 I'm not sure that anything new came out of Marvel
25 after he left the company so you could look at it in
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1 that aspect.
2 Q Does that as a scientist speak to what
3 happened while your father was there?
5 A Well, as a scientist I'm not sure how we
6 apply scientific method to this but, no, it just goes
7 on the basis of what I have known and just my
8 discussions with my father.
9 Q Did your father ever tell you that he was
10 the sole creative force at Marvel during his tenure
11 there?
12 A I don't recall him using -- again, my
13 father would have been too humble a person to even
14 word anything like that but I know in discussions it
15 just, to me, he certainly seemed that way.
16 Q It seemed that way because you were aware
17 of what else was going on at Marvel other than what
18 you saw your father do?
19 A Well, yes. We got all the comic books and
20 pretty much knew what was going on at Marvel at the
21 time as children.
22 Q And was it your view at the time that Mr.
23 Hecht who was a Marvel artist at the time was not a
24 significant creative force at Marvel?
25 A I couldn't say one way or the other. I
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1 never met Mr. Hecht.
2 Q Are you aware of the work of Bill Everett?
3 A I know his name.
4 Q Is it your view that Mr. Everett was not a
5 creative force at Marvel in the fifties and sixties?
6 A Again, I never met Mr. Everett and I'm not
7 totally familiar with his work so I wouldn't
8 conjecture on that one way or the other.
9 Q So my question is how can you say that your
10 father was effectively the sole creative force at
11 Marvel during the fifties or sixties.
12 A Again, that's come just from my discussions
13 with my father and my perception of the situation at
14 the time.
15 Q Do you know who the editor and chief at
16 Marvel was during the fifties and sixties?
17 A I would guess that would have been Stan
18 Lee.
19 Q Do you know if it was part of the work that
20 your father did on Marvel's behalf to review and
21 direct Marvel publications other than the ones that
22 he was working on as an artist?
23 A Are you staying it was Stan Lee's job?
24 Q No, your father's job.
25 A To edit other artists' work? I'm not quite
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1 A He never mentioned to me that he worked off
2 a synopsis and usually he was penciling stories in
3 the margins of the comics. He usually, if I could
4 jump in there, he usually started, he always started
5 in the middle of a story and then he went back to the
6 beginning and then he would finish up and do the end,
7 that was just the way he worked. I would think if
8 you are working off a story or a synopsis that you
9 don't need to do that but --
10 Q As you have indicated, though, you don't
11 know what conversations may have occurred between
12 Stan and your father before you saw him working on a
13 drawing, correct?
14 A I wouldn't have been privy to those
15 conversations.
16 Q Right. And you don't know whether or not
17 your father had been given a synopsis or a script
18 before he began working on a particular story; is
19 that correct?
20 MR. TOBEROFF: Asked and answered.
21 A Yes. I never saw a script or synopsis by
22 his drawing board.
23 Q What information, if any, do you have
24 concerning the creation of The Fantastic Four?
25 A In discussions with my father The Fantastic
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1 Four basically was a derivative of the, from what he
2 told me, basically he came up with the idea just as a
3 derivative from the Challengers of the Unknown that
4 he had done several years earlier.
5 Q So your father told you that The Fantastic
6 Four was his idea?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did your father ever tell you about any
9 discussions that he had with Stan Lee concerning The
10 Fantastic Four?
11 A Any specific discussions, not that I can
12 recall.
13 Q Did your father ever discuss with you any
14 synopsis that Stan Lee had given to your father?
15 A No, he never discussed that with me and as
16 I said previously, I never saw him work on a
17 synopsis.
18 (Neal Kirby Exhibit 3, a document, Bates
19 Nos. MARVEL0014587 to MARVEL0014588, marked
21 MR. FLEISCHER: Would you mark that as
22 three, please.
23 MR. TOBEROFF: I just want to clarify, any
24 document that you produce in this action will
25 have Bates stamps and if it is a document like
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1 work on The Fantastic Four?
2 A Again, I can only say what I said before.
3 I had never seen him work from a synopsis, he never
4 had a synopsis or a story on his drawing table or
5 anywhere near his drawing table that I could see when
6 he was working, and in none of our discussions did he
7 ever mention to me working off of any kind of
8 synopsis by Stan Lee.
9 Q Apart from those observations you made as a
10 young man or teenager, do you have any reason to
11 doubt the veracity of Stan Lee's testimony to the
12 effect that this is a synopsis he created and gave to
13 your father for the purposes of assisting his work as
14 the artist on The Fantastic Four?
15 A Do I have reason to disbelieve him?
16 Q Yes.
17 A Yes, I do have reason to disbelieve him.
18 Q And what is the basis for your disbelief?
19 A The basis for my disbelieve is that I
20 believe Stan Lee, and I'm trying not to be
21 mean-spirited here at all or anything like that, who
22 was brought up to be respected by my elders and at my
23 age it is nice to call someone else an elder, but I
24 believe Stan Lee is -- he is basically a self-
25 promoter so I believe, you know, I believe he is
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1 narcissistic and I believe he is a self-promoter and
2 I believe he will do whatever needs to be done to
3 carry on the myth that he was the creator of
4 everything at Marvel.
5 Q Did your father ever tell you that he
6 created the names of The Fantastic Four characters?
7 A They came up in discussion, yes, that my
8 father was joining them, this is so is so, this is so
9 and so.
10 Q Do you know if those were the names he gave
11 to the characters or the names that Stan Lee had
12 given to the characters or someone else had given to
13 the characters?
15 A It was my understanding from our discussion
16 that he had given the names to the characters.
17 Q He had told you that he had given the names
18 to The Fantastic Four characters?
19 A I believe so, yes.
20 Q Did he tell you that when the initial issue
21 of Fantastic Four was on the drawing board or some
22 other time?
23 A If I recall, it was -- it was -- I don't
24 recall honestly if it was while he was still drawing
25 it or if it was before the actual published book
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1 And then the next opportunity for a war book being
2 the Combat book which was just really a compilation
3 of stories.
4 Q Now do you -- and the basis for your
5 statement that your father created the name Sergeant
6 Fury or Nick Fury, whichever is appropriate --
7 A Sergeant Nick Fury.
8 Q Sergeant Nick Fury is what?
9 A That he told me.
10 Q Any other information concerning the name
11 of that character that you have?
12 A Not that I can recall.
13 Q And am I correct that you have no knowledge
14 with regard to conversations that occurred between
15 your father and Stan Lee concerning Sergeant Nick
16 Fury prior to the introduction of that character? Is
17 that correct?
18 A It is correct in saying that my father
19 didn't -- in my discussions with my father that did
20 not come up.
21 Q And you weren't present at any
22 conversations as you have indicated between your
23 father and Stan Lee.
24 A That would be correct.
25 Q Do you recall who was the assigned writer
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1 to the Thor comic book at the time of its first
2 issue?
3 A No, I don't recall that.
4 Q Do you know what contribution the assigned
5 writer of Thor made to that character?
6 A I don't recall right now. No, I don't
7 recall what that might have been.
8 Q Do you recall what discussions took place
9 between Stan Lee and your father prior to your father
10 beginning work on the Thor comic book?
11 A I have no knowledge of what their
12 discussions might have been. Same thing. My
13 discussions with my father were about basically
14 creating, you know, a book around Norse mythology.
15 Q Do you know if Stan Lee asked your father
16 to create a book based on Norse mythology?
17 A I have no recollection or knowledge of
18 that.
19 Q Was it your understanding your father would
20 begin working on a book without any discussion with
21 Stan before doing so?
22 A I would say it was my understanding if my
23 father had an idea for a book or a character to
24 create he could bring it up and get a yea or nay.
25 Q Was it your understanding that he would
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1 begin working; that is, drawing panels prior to
2 getting a go ahead from Marvel or Stan Lee?
3 A I don't believe -- that is not my
4 understanding. My father didn't do work on spec, he
5 was getting paid by the page.
6 Q Let's talk about Ant-Man for a minute.
7 A If I could just interject here, if he was
8 to do something on spec like that and do a whole 20-
9 page story which would take him hours and hours and
10 hours to do and bring that into New York and oh,
11 sorry, you know, idea but not now let's wait a couple
12 of years, he doesn't get paid for it so that wouldn't
13 have been the way my father would operate.
14 Q Okay. What information, if any, do you
15 have about the circumstances surrounding the creation
16 of Ant-Man?
17 A I really don't recall that. Ant-Man would
18 have been when I was really young.
19 Q You read, as you said, Mr. Lee's deposition
20 testimony, correct?
21 A Uh-huh.
22 Q And he described the circumstances of his
23 idea about Ant-Man to your father. Do you remember
24 reading that testimony?
25 A Actually, no, I don't. I did read through
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1 going on and him explaining the characters. Usually
2 he would say something to the effect of this is a new
3 story I've come up with, what do you think of this
4 and here is where I'm going with this. That's how
5 our discussions would go.
6 Q Specifically with regard to the X-Men did
7 your father say the concept and basic story of the
8 X-Men universe was solely his creation?
9 A I do recall him saying again along those
10 same lines this is the new characters and story, you
11 know, I've come up with.
12 Q You read Mr. Lee's testimony concerning the
13 creation of X-Men, correct?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q And Mr. Lee testified under oath that the
16 concept was his and that he assigned the book to your
17 father, correct?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q Do you have any reason to believe that that
20 testimony was not correct?
21 A Again, as I stated before, my reasons for
22 not believing Mr. Lee is that, you know, I have no
23 reason not to disbelieve my father and pretty much
24 every reason to disbelieve Mr. Lee. I just don't
25 believe in his deposition he was telling the truth or
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1 maybe he just didn't recall the truth properly. I
2 will try to be somewhat respectful.
3 Q Are there -- apart from your own
4 recollections of what your father told you that you
5 have testified about with respect to X-Men, are you
6 aware of any evidence to corroborate your belief that
7 the X-Men story was a creation solely of your
8 father's?
9 A I am not aware if you are referring to like
10 some kind of written evidence or -- I'm not quite
11 sure exactly what you are referring to.
12 Q Any -- any evidence, whether it is written
13 or something you observed.
14 A Well, I observed him drawing X-Men, Number
15 1, and talking -- and talking to the -- talking about
16 the story with me so, again, that's where it is
17 coming from. I have no knowledge, I cannot recall
18 anything about there being any other type of written
19 evidence that might exist.
20 Q Well, if your father had been assigned the
21 story by Mr. Lee who had suggest an outline for the
22 story or a synopsis, whether verbally or in writing,
23 you would have still observed your father drawing the
24 first issue of X-Men, correct?
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1 Galactus, he is going to be a planet eater, planet
2 destroyer, went into the concept of the Silver Surfer
3 of being his scout or herald, as he called it.
4 Q Did he indicate in front of anyone else
5 that he had created the names Galactus and the Silver
6 Surfer?
7 A He might have.
8 Q Do you have a recollection of him having
9 done so?
10 A I don't recall him saying that in front of
11 me and someone else.
12 Q Are you aware of your father ever giving an
13 interview in which he claimed credit for naming the
14 Silver Surfer?
15 A He may have. Again, I have no recollection
16 of one in specific.
17 Q Are you familiar with a character called
18 Rawhide Kid?
19 A Yes, I am.
20 Q And do you have any information concerning
21 the circumstances under which that character was
22 created?
23 A Rawhide Kid I don't. I don't recall. I
24 believe the Rawhide Kid was one of the first things
25 that he did when he went -- at that time with Marvel.
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1 MR. TOBEROFF: You can answer that as long
2 as your answer does not implicate the substance
3 of conversations with me.
4 A My role would have been in helping to
5 identify the characters that I was aware of.
6 Q Rawhide Kid is a character that is the
7 subject of the notice, correct?
8 A I believe recall all 45 them off the top of
9 my head.
10 Q What information did you have about the
11 creation of Rawhide Kid that was pertinent to the
12 notices?
13 A I don't recall at this time.
14 Q The notices pertain to characters that
15 appeared in publications that were made between 1958
16 and 1963, correct?
17 A I believe so.
18 Q And can you tell me what characters which
19 are the subject of those notices you and your sisters
20 contend were created solely by your father as opposed
21 to co-creations?
22 A As opposed to co-creations.
24 conclusion.
25 A You know, again, I could only go on the
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1 A No, I don't.
2 Q Do you have any information concerning the
3 circumstances of the creation of The Incredible Hulk?
4 A That honestly I don't recall. I recall my
5 father again working on the first issue and obviously
6 subsequent issues and going over the storyline with
7 me about how he becomes the Hulk and so on, Bruce
8 Banner and all that. I cannot recall right now
9 discussions about creation, creation of that
10 character.
11 Q Are you aware of any documents that would
12 assist you in refreshing your recollection?
13 A No, I'm not aware of anything that I can
14 think of.
15 Q Do you contend that The Incredible Hulk was
16 the sole creation of your father?
17 A Again, my personal knowledge is after it
18 had been released he had a major part in the creation
19 of it.
20 Q Would it be correct to say you don't know
21 one way or the other as to whether there were others
22 who made a significant contribution to The Incredible
23 Hulk?
24 A I would say my personal knowledge is there
25 may have been. I don't know how significant it might
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1 have been.
2 Q Did you review Stan Lee's testimony
3 concerning the concept for The Incredible Hulk
4 character?
5 A I did read it. I don't recall all of it.
6 Q Do you have any reason to believe that the
7 idea for the character was not a creation of Stan
8 Lee's?
9 A I could only say, as I said before,
10 according to Stan Lee's deposition he created
11 everything solely. Again, trying to be somewhat
12 respectful, you know, but to say that would seem
13 highly unlikely. You know, honestly I just think Mr.
14 Lee is again propping up his own ego with whatever he
15 sees fit at this point. What's the expression, he
16 has the benefit of being the last man standing, so to
17 speak.
18 Q Do you feel that Mr. Lee's testimony in
19 some way diminished the contribution that your father
20 made to the various characters that he worked on at
21 Marvel?
22 A Diminished I think is -- I think diminished
23 is the least of it. I think Stan Lee is kind of
24 rewriting history but --
25 Q You know, with respect to the creation of a
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1 you know, met with somebody else saying gee, I have
2 this good idea for a character, you know, would you
3 like to go for it, that he would have done it, you
4 know. Definitely I would consider that coming up
5 with an idea and speculation. There's no -- there's
6 no guarantee if you are going to come up with an idea
7 that they're going to say yea, nay or otherwise. I'm
8 sorry.
9 MR. TOBEROFF: Feel free to finish your
10 answer.
11 A In terms of would he, maybe this was a
12 little confusing before, what I was trying to get at.
13 In terms of would he sit down and spend
14 three days, four days, however long, actually
15 doing -- I don't recall how long comic books were at
16 the time, I think they were 22 pages, something like
17 that, would he sit down and do a 22-page comic book
18 and then bring that in to -- bring that in to Stan
19 Lee or anyone else and go, "Would you like to buy
20 this," probably not. Because if they said no he is
21 out five days worth of work and all those pages. So
22 in regards to just to clarify my statement as to, you
23 know, as to on spec.
24 Q So if I understand what you are saying, you
25 believe that he never sat down to draw a story until
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1 being given an okay by someone on the editorial staff
2 at Marvel?
3 A I'm saying that he wouldn't draw, I don't
4 believe that he would draw a brand new out-of-his-
5 head idea story, actual set it pencil to paper,
6 without knowing in advance that it would be
7 purchased.
8 Q And do you have any information one way or
9 the other as to whether any of the stories that he
10 worked on as an artist for Marvel were the result of
11 the collaboration on the story idea between your
12 father and Stan Lee?
13 A I'm sorry, could you just repeat the
14 question, please?
15 Q Sure.
16 (Record read)
17 A I would have no information that I can
18 think of right now for that.
19 Q Do you believe that Marvel had the right to
20 exercise creative control with respect to the
21 contributions your father submitted to Marvel?
23 conclusion.
24 A It was my understanding that they were
25 purchasing their artwork. As to what legal rights
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1 that entitled them to, I don't have the knowledge to
2 answer that question.
3 Q Well, you have indicated that you think
4 that there were pages that your father had brought to
5 Marvel that were rejected.
6 A Correct.
7 Q And I think your testimony was that you
8 don't recall whether there were instances in which
9 your father brought artwork to Marvel and corrections
10 were requested but would you agree that that could
11 have happened?
12 A That corrections --
14 Q That your father brought in work and then
15 Marvel may have asked that corrections be made or
16 changes be made.
17 A The only thing that I can say, I don't know
18 what Marvel may or may not do or what they may or may
19 not have requested my father to do. I do know that
20 he never mentioned to me in any of our discussions
21 look, I'm making a change on a page because so and so
22 asked me to do so.
23 Q Given your knowledge of the industry as
24 you've suggested you have earlier, isn't it
25 commonplace for art directors and editors to make
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1 changes or request changes by artists and writers in
2 connection with the stories?
3 A My limited knowledge of the industry is,
4 you know, that might take place.
5 Might I add something that -- oh, I'm
6 sorry.
7 Q There's no pending question.
8 In Paragraph 10, I will read the first
9 sentence.
10 "Any contributions made by Kirby to the
11 Works were done at the expense of the Marvel
12 Entities."
13 And that allegation, as well as the second
14 sentence that is part of Paragraph 10, is denied.
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q What is the factual basis for the denial
17 that the contributions made by your father to the
18 comic books he worked on for Marvel were made at
19 Marvel's expense?
21 conclusion.
22 A To the best of my knowledge, as we
23 discussed previously, my parents paid for all their
24 own supplies, obviously his studio was in the house,
25 that was at their expense, and to the best of my
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1 knowledge they were not reimbursed for those
2 expenses.
3 Q I thought you testified earlier that you
4 had no knowledge one way or the other as to whether
5 or not they were reimbursed.
6 A I can't recall exactly what I said but,
7 however, there would be -- if my mother or if my
8 parents were getting reimbursed for their expenses
9 there would have been no reason for them to complain
10 about them or to even bring that up since it would be
11 a net wash.
12 Q Do you have an understanding of the
13 earliest date on which any of the 45 termination
14 notices becomes effective?
15 A If I recall right, it is somewhere around
16 2014, I believe, somewhere in that area. I don't
17 recall specifically.
18 Q I think you are correct.
19 A I don't recall which character.
20 Q And in respect to the characters which are
21 the subject of the termination notices, are you aware
22 of any limitations on Marvel's rights to exploit the
23 copyrights associated with those characters prior to
24 the effective date of the termination notices?
25 A I can't say that -- you know, I can't say
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1 to be worded, that's not my area of expertise.
2 Q You were willing to suggest that the credit
3 that was given to your father on the Hulk film was
4 inappropriate in some fashion.
5 A Yes. Because I would have preferred the
6 word "created" in it as I mentioned before.
7 Q Are you aware that Wolverine's first
8 appearance was in 1974 well after your father had
9 stopped work on X-Men?
11 evidence.
12 A No, I was not aware of that. No. I don't
13 recall that.
14 Q Did you do any research to determine
15 whether any of the characters that were the subject
16 of your notices were in fact created by your father
17 or co-created by him?
18 A I did some.
19 Q What research did you do?
20 A Oh, just some with books that I have or a
21 little talking with my sister and so on.
22 Q Which sister?
23 A Lisa.
24 Q And what books?
25 A Oh, just the coffee table history of comic
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1 kind of books.
2 Q Can you be more specific? Are these books
3 that you have in your home?
4 A Yes, they are.
5 Q And do you still have them in your home?
6 A I do, yes.
7 Q And do you recall specifically what titles
8 and what authors?
9 A No, I can't at the moment. There's one
10 book by Mark Evanier which I guess is the newest
11 book. I think it is just titled "Jack Kirby, King of
12 Comics," I believe.
13 Q Did you ever inquire of Mr. Evanier as to
14 whether he had any direct knowledge of the
15 circumstances of the creation of the characters that
16 your father drew for Marvel?
17 A No, I haven't had any conversations with
18 Mark Evanier.
19 Q Do you know if Mark Evanier was privy to
20 any of the meetings or discussions at Marvel between
21 your father and Stan Lee?
22 A Mark Evanier, as far as I know, would not
23 have been around at that time.
24 Q Do you know what the basis for Mr.
25 Evanier's statements in the book that you relied on
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1 litigation was commenced?
2 A No.
3 I'm mean, I'm sorry, yes, you are correct
4 in that.
5 Q Are you aware of any significance these
6 pages have to the issue of the circumstances of the
7 creation of any of the characters depicted in these
8 pages?
9 A That I honestly cannot say that I'm aware
10 of that.
11 Q Now a lot of the pages have either captions
12 or other handwritten notations other than the ones
13 that appear to be actually printed. Do you see that?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q Let's take an example, K 10. Can you
16 identify the handwriting at the foot of the pages
17 saying "Hunters say"?
18 A That would appear to be my father's.
19 Q And do you know what that notation was
20 intended to represent or be?
21 A My father used to add comments in the
22 margins. If sometimes he did not write dialogue
23 directly, from what I understand, he would add those
24 comments to guide the person adding the dialogue in
25 the balloons.
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1 Q And do you know if the comments that your
2 father would make in the margins were ever used
3 verbatim in the final version of the story?
4 A That I would really -- I don't know, I
5 couldn't tell you.
6 Q Was it your understanding that those
7 marginal notations that your father put on the
8 drawings were subject to the inclusion or not
9 inclusion at the discretion of the editor or art
10 director?
11 A I couldn't say at the time if I had any
12 knowledge of that, if that was going it happen or
13 not. I do know that, you know, that my father was
14 adding to guide the story and sometimes he would do
15 the work because I know he mentioned the letterer
16 will go over these at a later date, something to that
17 effect.
18 Q The notations that you are talking about
19 were not notations that were intended to be going
20 over by the letterer, were they?
21 A Not the ones in the margins, no.
22 Q Was it your father's custom, do you know,
23 to actually put in captions or balloons on the
24 drawings themselves?
25 A I can't say if he did it every time. I
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EXHIBIT 6
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3

)
6 PLAINTIFFS, )
)
7 vs. ) No. 10-141-CMKF
)
NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
9 )
DEFENDANTS. )
10 ___________________________________)
11
12
13
14 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LISA KIRBY

15 Los Angeles, California
16 Thursday, July 1, 2010
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 Reported by:
24 SUSAN A. SULLIVAN, CSR #3522, RPR, CRR
25 JOB NO. 31596
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1 A I'm his youngest daughter.
2 Q What is your birth date?
3 A 9/7/1960.
4 Q Did you have occasion to speak with your
5 brother Neal within the last 24 hours?
6 A No, I have not.
7 Q When was the last time you spoke to Neal?
8 A I'd say a week ago. About a week ago.
9 Q Did you discuss this lawsuit with your
10 brother at that time?
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer.
13 A No, I'm -- I don't recall what we spoke
14 about at that time.
15 Q Have you ever spoken with your brother
16 about this lawsuit?
17 A Occasionally.
18 Q And have you ever spoken with him about
19 this lawsuit outside the presence of Mr. Toberoff or
20 some member of his law firm?
21 A Yes, I have. Yes, I have.
22 Q When is the first time --
23 MR. TOBEROFF: Speak a little louder.
24 A I'm sorry.
25 Q When for the first time do you have a
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1 house?
2 A At first I think a lot of people came over
3 to our house. He was a fan and wanted to meet my
4 father. I believe that's probably what started their
5 friendship.
6 Q Did there come a time when he was paid by
7 your father?
8 A I recall him doing work for my father. As
9 far as payment, I would not be able to give you
10 specifics on that, I don't recall that. I was young
11 at the time so --
12 Q Do you know what work he was doing for your
13 father?
14 A I would not recall that, no.
15 Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Evanier any
16 work that he did in cataloguing any of the artwork
17 that your father owned and possessed prior to his
18 death?
19 A I do not recall speaking with Mark about
20 that.
21 Q When was the last time that you spoke to
22 Mark Evanier? Evanier, excuse me.
23 A I think possibly before the last comic
24 convention. Usually I speak to him then. I would
25 say it was almost a year ago. Probably eight months
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1 other than what you have testified about?
2 A Not at this time, no, not specifically.
3 Q Are you aware of something that would
4 refresh your recollection about the substance of what
5 was said?
6 A Can you clarify that for me, I'm sorry?
7 Q Did you make any notes of the conversation,
8 was there any followup correspondence between the two
9 of you?
10 A From what I remember, I might have -- I
11 remember speaking to his daughter one time
12 afterwards.
13 Q What was the subject of that discussion?
14 A Again, I was thanking her for talking to
15 her father and just went over again what we discussed
16 about his support in helping my father receiving
17 credit for his work.
18 Q Was there some aspect of your father's work
19 that he had not received adequate credit as far as
20 you were concerned that triggered your discussion
21 with Mr. Adams?
22 A I feel my father did not receive enough
23 credit for his work, yes.
24 Q And was there any specific instance that
25 triggered your discussion with Mr. Adams?
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1 A Specific instance. I would have to say not
2 a specific instance, it was just general knowledge.
3 Q General knowledge about what?
4 A About my father not receiving proper credit
5 for the work that he has done.
6 Q And why did you contact Neal Adams?
8 You can answer.
9 A The family, we had heard that he was a big
10 supporter of my father's legacy and that he would be,
11 you know, a good person for us to talk to.
12 Q And how many times have you spoken with Mr.
13 Adams?
14 A From what I recall, I believe I met him, I
15 spoke to him at one time in San Diego. That's from
16 my recollection.
17 Q That was several years ago?
18 A It was, yeah.
19 Q And you haven't spoken with him since?
20 A Not since. Not that I can recall at this
21 moment, no.
22 Q Have you corresponded with him since?
24 Q Do you know John Remedas, Sr.?
25 A I do not know him, no.
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1 or interviewers?
3 A About my father's rights to the characters.
4 Can you clarify? I mean, specifically --
5 Q I will break it down for you.
6 A Okay. I'd appreciate that.
7 Q Do you have any information from your
8 firsthand observations about the circumstances of any
9 characters your father created for Marvel?
10 A I don't believe I spoke, did any interviews
11 as far as, you know, specific, as far as his rights
12 to specific characters were concerned.
13 Q I don't think you listened to my question.
14 A Okay, sir.
15 Q My question was do you have any information
16 from your firsthand observations about the
17 circumstances of any characters your father created
18 for Marvel.
19 A No, I don't recall that, no. I don't know
20 if I even understand your question, I'm sorry.
21 Q Then you should ask me.
22 A I'm sorry, I'm a little nervous, I
23 apologize.
24 Q Did you see your father at work --
25 A On occasion.
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1 Q -- on any characters that you understood
2 were being drawn for Marvel?
3 A Oh, my father's work at home. Yes, I have
4 seen my father work.
5 Q Did you see him work on characters
6 published by Marvel?
7 A I was very young at the time, during this
8 timeframe, and I would go into his studio from time
9 to time so I can't recall like specifically yes, I
10 saw him working on -- because I was a young person so
11 it is hard to recall that.
12 Q So is your answer that you don't have any
13 recollection of being able to distinguish between
14 what characters your father was working on when you
15 observed him at work?
16 A I have recollection of my father working in
17 general.
18 Q But sitting here today is it fair to say
19 that you don't recall specific characters that your
20 father was working on at the time you saw him at
21 work?
22 A It is too far back to remember, I'm going
23 to say, I'm going to stick to I remember my father
24 working at home. I cannot remember him specifically
25 working on --
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1 Q Any particular characters.
2 A -- particular characters, yes, at this
3 time.
4 Q Are you aware of any documents that might
5 refresh your recollection with regard to what you
6 observed when your father was at work?
7 A That would refresh my memory?
8 Q Yes.
9 A I can't recall, you know, sitting here at
10 this time.
11 Q Do you recall having any discussions with
12 your father at the time he was at work drawing
13 characters about what he was doing?
14 A I would discuss, yes, I would go in there
15 and speak with my dad.
16 Q Let's break down the time.
17 A Okay.
18 Q Do you have a recollection of witnessing
19 your father at work on Long Island in East Williston?
20 A I was very young at the time so I do have
21 some recollection. It would be vague but I do
22 remember a little bit.
23 Q Do you remember any discussions you had
24 with your father while he was working in East
25 Williston?
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1 A In East Williston? It is a long time ago.
2 This is before I was eight years old so I'm trying to
3 think.
4 Q If you don't have a recollection it
5 wouldn't be surprising for a child of that age.
6 A Okay.
7 Q But if you do, I want to hear it.
8 A I remember him working in his studio but
9 not on what he was specifically working on.
10 Q Do you recall having any discussions with
11 your father at that time about what he was working
12 on?
13 A No, sir, I don't recall.
14 Q Do you recall any recollection of your
15 father discussing his work for Marvel when you were
16 living in East Williston with him?
17 A Oh, I don't recall, no.
18 Q Did you and your father have any
19 discussions with his work for Marvel in later years
20 when you became a little bit older?
21 A I would discuss my father's work with him,
22 yes, later on.
23 Q What do you recall your father and you
24 discussing as far as characters he created for
25 Marvel?
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1 A I would go into his studio and talk
2 about -- he would describe to me how he worked and --
3 Q Do you recall any discussions specifically
4 that related to drawings your father did that were
5 published by Marvel?
6 A We had a discussion on, that I can recall,
7 we talked about characters, of Fantastic Four, you
8 know, Galactus, that type of --
9 Q What do you remember your father saying
10 about either the Fantastic Four or Galactus?
11 A Well, he would describe to me his stories,
12 the storyline, and you know, what the characters were
13 doing and more that type thing.
14 Q Did your father ever talk to you about any
15 meetings that he had had or discussions he had with
16 Stan Lee or anyone at Marvel about the work that he
17 did with Marvel?
18 A Oh, no, not that I can recall.
19 Q Did your father ever discuss with you the
20 process by which works he drew that were published by
21 Marvel came about?
23 A I -- he described to me his process, you
24 know, on how he worked on characters.
25 Q And when did he do that?
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1 Q I think you testified that the last time
2 you recall meeting with Mr. Evanier was about a year
3 ago, correct?
4 A Correct, yes. He is not someone I see on a
5 regular basis.
6 Q Do you have any specific recollection of
7 any discussions you had with Mr. Evanier concerning
8 your father's work?
9 MR. TOBEROFF: Didn't we already go through
10 all of this? Asked and answered.
11 A I don't recall at this point, just what I
12 previously explained.
13 Q Do you know the names of any characters
14 your father created or co-created after 1970?
15 A After 1970? I can't give you specific
16 characters he created during the seventies, I can't
17 recall --
18 MR. TOBEROFF: The question is after the
19 1970s, not during the seventies.
20 A Oh, after 1970s, I can, you know, I recall
21 him creating like the Topps characters and Captain
22 Victory. When I was younger I don't have a
23 recollection of exactly what he was creating.
24 MR. TOBEROFF: He is not asking you when
25 you were younger, he is saying just -- just slow
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1 aware of why he left?
2 A I don't recall that at the time, no.
3 Q Do you have a recollection of your father
4 leaving Marvel?
5 A I have a slight recollection, yeah.
6 Q Do you remember having any discussions with
7 him or your mother at that time?
8 A At that time, no.
9 Q Later did you have any discussions --
10 A I don't recall discussions.
11 Q -- with either your father or mother?
12 A I don't recall at this time.
13 Q Do you have any knowledge of the
14 circumstances under which the Spider-Man character
15 was created?
17 You can answer.
18 A I know a little bit about Spider-Man but I
19 don't know a lot of general history about the
20 character itself.
21 Q Did your father or mother ever discuss the
22 Spider-Man character with you?
23 A Not that I can recall, no.
24 Q Did you ever hear your -- do you have an
25 understanding of whether or not your father made any
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1 contribution to the Spider-Man character?
2 A From what I understand, I believe he worked
3 on some pages and a cover, an idea, concept,
4 possibly, you know. I don't have any real specific
5 information on the Spider-Man character.
6 Q How did you obtain the information that
7 you've just described concerning Spider-Man?
8 A From what I read, interviews and whatnot.
9 Q Did you ever hear your mother disclaim your
10 father's involvement in the creation of the
11 Spider-Man character?
12 A I don't recall my mother speaking to me
13 about Spider-Man.
14 Q Do you recall ever giving a statement to a
15 reporter concerning your mother's disclaimer of your
16 father's contribution to Spider-Man?
17 A I really don't recall speaking to anyone
18 about Spider-Man.
19 MR. FLEISCHER: Let me mark for
20 identification Kirby Exhibit 2.
21 (Lisa Kirby Exhibit 2, a document, marked
23 MR. FLEISCHER: Marc, do you have the
24 exhibits? We marked this yesterday. Maybe we
25 didn't. Here is a copy. There's a notation I
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1 to answer the question.
2 A Okay.
3 MR. TOBEROFF: He is not asking you in
4 general about Spider-Man, he is asking you about
5 a specific question.
6 A Okay.
7 Q The specific question is do you have any
8 basis for believe that the statement attributed to
9 you was inaccurate.
10 A I do not at this time feel that this is
11 accurate.
12 Q And what is the basis for your feeling that
13 it is not accurate?
14 A Because I don't recall having discussions
15 about Spider-Man with my parents. I don't recall
16 that at this moment.
17 Q Do you recall ever discussing the origins
18 of Spider-Man with any reporter or anyone in 2009?
19 A I can't recall that at this time, no.
20 Q Do you have any knowledge concerning the
21 creation of The Incredible Hulk character?
22 A I do not have knowledge of The Incredible
23 Hulk that I can recall right now.
24 Q Do you have any recollection of your father
25 discussing that character with you?
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1 A I don't have recollection of my father
2 discussing the Hulk with me, no.
3 Q Do you have any knowledge about the Thor
4 character?
6 A I have knowledge of the Thor character.
7 Q Do you have any knowledge about the
8 creation of the Thor character as published by
9 Marvel?
10 A I have some, you know, vague understanding
11 of the Thor character.
12 Q How did you come by that understanding?
13 A Just by how my father worked and what he
14 was working on, reading the story, and how he --
15 Q Do you have a recollection of discussing
16 the Thor character's creation with your father?
17 A No, I did not discuss the Thor character.
18 I don't recall discussing it with my father, the
19 creation of Thor.
20 Q I take it you have no recollection of
21 witnessing your father drawing the Thor character in
22 East Williston.
23 A I would not have recollection of that.
24 Q Do you have any knowledge concerning the
25 creation of the Ant-Man character?
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1 A I really -- I do not have knowledge.
2 Q Did your father ever discuss that character
3 with you?
5 Q Do you have any knowledge or information
6 concerning the creation of any XMen characters?
7 A Not that I can recall my father discussing
8 with me.
9 Are you asking if he discussed the
10 characters with me, are we still --
11 Q Yes.
12 A He did not discuss the character of XMen
13 with me.
14 Q And you have no recollection of your father
15 drawing any XMen characters in East Williston?
16 A I don't, no, sir.
17 Q Do you recall discussing or do you have any
18 information concerning the creation of The Fantastic
19 Four characters?
20 A I do have some recollection of my father
21 talking about the characters of Fantastic Four.
22 Q What do you recall your father saying about
23 that?
24 A We discussed, you know, The Thing, you
25 know, because at the time he -- it was kind of a
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1 with your husband?
2 A Yes, possibly, possibly.
3 Q Did he ever discuss with you the Nick Fury
4 character?
5 A I don't recall him discussing Nick Fury
6 with me.
7 Q Are you familiar with that character?
8 A Very vaguely.
9 Q Did he ever discuss with you Wolverine?
10 A I don't remember him ever discussing
11 Wolverine with me.
12 Q Did he ever discuss Professor Xavier?
13 A I don't recall him discussing that.
14 Q Are you familiar with a character called
15 Rawhide Kid?
16 A I am familiar with Rawhide Kid.
17 Q Do you have any knowledge or information
18 concerning circumstances under which that character
19 was created?
20 A I can't, no, I don't recall.
21 Q Did your father ever talk to you about
22 Rawhide Kid?
23 A I don't recall my father discussing Rawhide
24 Kid with me.
25 Q Do you have an understanding of the claims
JA514
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
The undersigned hereby certifies that the foregoing Special Appendix/ Joint
Appendix were served electronically by the Court’s ECF system and by priority
mail on those parties not registered for ECF pursuant to the rules of this court.
Pursuant to Local Rules 25.3 and 30.1, six paper copies of the Joint Appendix and
Special Appendix have been mailed to the Court on the date this brief was
electronically filed.
Dated: January 13, 2011 /s/ Marc Toberoff

Malibu, California Marc Toberoff (MT 4862)

Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
mtoberoff@ipwla.com

Lisa R. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby, Neal L.
Kirby and Susan M. Kirby

Kirby - Marvel Appellate Document Record Volume 2

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Case 11-3333, Document 73, 01/26/2012, 509509, Page1 of 310

CASE NO. 11-3333

Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME II OF X

TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

CASE NO. 11-3333

Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME II OF X

TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

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TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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