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Colliding
Worlds,
Thursday
12
June
2014
Martin
Rees
&
Hans
Ulrich
Obrist
in
conversation
Video:
Duration
0:93:02
KA
=
Ken
Arnold
MR
=
Martin
Rees
HUO
=
Hans
Ulrich
Obrist
M1
=
Male
Speaker
1
etc.
F
1
=
Female
Speaker
1
etc.
s.l.
=
sounds
like
KA:
Good
evening
everybody,
my
name
is
Ken
Arnold
and
I
run
the
programming
here
at
Wellcome
Collection.
And
both
warm
welcome
to
you
here
in
the
auditorium
and
then
this
is
being
live
streamed
so
everyone
online
who
is
receiving
this,
a
very
warm
welcome
to
you
too.
Those
of
you
here
in
the
physical
venue
will
see
that
we’re
in
the
midst
of
a
redevelopment
project,
and
in
fact
we’re
in
the
sort
of
last
throws
of
the
project.
So
by
the
end
of
the
year
we
will
have
more
gallery
spaces,
we
will
have
more
events
like
tonight,
we
will
be
more
curious
than
we’ve
ever
been
before.
And
I
guess
at
the
heart
of
that
curiosity,
this
venue
seeks
to
explore
the
human
condition,
always
referring
back
to
our
core
interests
in
the
human
condition
but
also
in
medicine
and
in
health.
And
I
think
one
of
the
key
ideas
that
we
have
that
we
try
and
develop
as
we
take
that
journey
is
a
sense
of
how
much
interest
there
is
in
putting
different
perspectives
together.
I
guess
we’re
hooked
on
this
idea
that
often
it’s
the
cracks
between
established
viewpoints
where
one
can
sometimes
find
the
greatest
intensity
of
light.
Since
2007,
when
we’ve
been
open,
we
put
on
a
number
of
exhibitions,
we’ve
had
dozens
of
live
events,
and
almost
invariably
part
of
that
conversation
has
been
the
dominant
voices
of
science
and
art.
And
indeed
over
the
last
20
years
or
so
of
the
Wellcome
Trust’s
interest
in
public
engagement,
bringing
the
worlds
of
science
and
art
together
has
been
a
dominant
theme.
And
I
remember
back
in
the
early
days
of
doing
that
there
was
a
lot
of
conversation
about
the
similarities,
about
the
surprising
overlaps
of
how
the
worlds
of
science
and
art
work.
And
I’m
sure
that’s
still
true
today.
But
I
guess
gradually
for
me
over
the
last
years
of
coming
to
events
like
tonight
and
thinking
about
these
subjects,
it’s
actually
the
differences
that
I
increasingly
think
are
the
points
of
interest,
the
sense
of
the
lack
of
parallel
lines
sometimes,
and
even
occasionally
the
misunderstandings.
So
a
fantastic
insight
of
Isaac
Asimov
who
said
that
actually
the
two
words,
“That’s
strange”
are
much
more
powerful
than
the
one
word
“Eureka.”
And
that
idea
that
finding
something
odd
may
be
more
interesting
than
finding
something
settling,
something
that
confirms
what
you
already
know,
is
I
think
maybe
a
powerful
part
of
what
we
might
discover
tonight.
So
tonight’s
event
has
drawn
on
two
luminaries,
two
stars,
one
each
from
the
world
of
science
and
art.
Sir
Martin
Rees,
who
is
a
cosmologist
and
an
astrophysicist
who
was
president
of
the
Royal
Society,
has
been
a
member
of
the
House
of
Lords
since
2005,
is
in
the
pink
seat.
I
was
going
to
say
you
know,
boxing-‐wise,
and
in
the
blue
corner
[laughter]
we
have
Hans
Ulrich
Obrist,
who
is
an
art
critic,
and
art
commentator,
curator,
currently
co-‐director
of
the
Serpentine
Gallery
and
I
think
unquestionably
is
the
most
articulate
voice
we
have
today
in
1
making
us
realise
just
how
significant
the
idea
of
curation
is
for
art
but
I
think
for
the
whole
of
culture.
So
in
a
second
I
will
hand
over
to
our
two
fantastic
interlocutors.
I
think
I
have
just
four
quick
things
to
mention
to
you
before
I
do
so.
So
the
first
is
to
say
that
tonight’s
event
is
being
developed
in
the
context
of
working
with
fantastic
artist
Alice
Anderson.
We
are
very
excited
about
working
with
her
towards
an
exhibition
that
will
be
hosted
in
a
gallery
space
just
above
here
in
the
middle
of
next
year
called
Memory
Movement,
Memory
Objects
and
a
big
thank
you
to
Alice
for
helping
us
pull
this
evening
together.
And
then
I’d
also
like
to
thank
Maud
Jacquin
who
also
has
helped
co-‐
produce
tonight,
and
from
the
home
team,
Natalie
Coe
and
I
don’t
know
whether
Natalie
is
around
anywhere,
running
the
team
here
at
Wellcome.
So
thank
you
to
all
of
those
people
for
making
this
evening
possible.
Second
thing
is
just
to
remind
you
that
tonight
is
being
recorded,
it
is
being
live
transmitted
and
therefore
I
have
to
say
that
if
being
filmed
troubles
you,
you
should
probably
speak
to
a
member
of
staff
and
maybe
even
leave.
I
don’t,
hope
that
any
of
you
think
that’s
too
much
of
an
affront.
Thirdly,
a
pure
sort
of
commercial
plug:
there
are
books
by
each
of
our
speakers
tonight
that
are
on
sale
upstairs
in
the
foyer
so
do
find
your
wallet
and
make
sure
that
you
buy
at
least
one
of
each
as
you
leave
the
auditorium.
And
then
finally
just
to
say
that
by,
after
Martin
and
Hans
have
had
their
conversation
at
the
end
of
this
event,
there
will
be
an
opportunity
for
you
to
share
with
us
your
thoughts
and
to
ask
your
questions.
So
do
bear
that
in
mind
and
when
you
have
those
questions,
raise
your
hand
and
please
wait
for
the
microphone
to
arrive
and
then
speak
clearly
into
it.
And
I
think
that’s
all
I
have
to
say
except
then
to
pass
onto
Hans
and
Martin.
Thank
you
very
much.
[Applause]
HUO:
Ladies
and
Gentleman
good
evening
and
thank
you
so
very
much
and
many,
many
thanks
of
course
to
Martin
for
accepting
to
do
this
interview.
The
conversation
started
with
Maud
and
Alice
about
an
event
in
connection
to
the
exhibition,
I
mentioned
there
was
this
unrealised
project
of
doing
an
interview
with
Martin
Rees
and
it’s
wonderful
that
this
can
happen
tonight.
I’d
also
like
to
thank
John
Brockman.
Actually
John
Brockman,
the
great
impresario,
literary
agent
and
of
course
above
all,
publisher
of
Edge.org,
who
had
introduced
us
a
couple
of
years
ago
in
San
Francisco.
And
it’s
actually
on
Edge
that
I
found
a
wonderful
quote
on
Martin
Rees
by
David
Deutsch,
which
I
thought
would
be
nice
as
a
kind
of
a
preamble
to
introduce
tonight.
David
Deutsch
said,
“Cosmology
and
astrophysics
are
branches
of
physics
in
which
one
needs
an
unusual
combination
of
breadth
and
depth
to
excel.
Martin
Rees
is
arguably
the
finest
all
round
theoretical
physicist
working
today.”
And
it’s
wonderful
that
we
can
have
this
conversation.
I
thought
it
would
be
interesting
to
talk
about
the
beginnings,
to
talk
about
many
of
Martin’s
epiphanies,
then
about
the
more
recent
work,
and
of
course
also
explore
the
connection
to
the
arts
and
in
particularly
his
interest
in
science
fiction.
But
before
doing
so,
I
thought
it
would
be
great
to
begin
with
the
beginning
and
I
was
wondering
if
you
could
tell
us
a
little
bit
about
how
it
all
started.
And
I
know
from
also
Roger
Penrose,
whom
I’ve
talked
to
about
this
many
years
ago,
and
also
from
John
Brockman,
that
actually
someone
called
Dennis
Schamer
played
a
big
role
for
you
at
the
beginning
and
I
thought
maybe
we
could
start
there,
asking
you
a
little
bit
to
tell
us
about
these
beginnings.
MR:
thank
you.
Let
me
first
say,
it’s
great
to
be
here
in
front
of
this
audience
and
I
hope
there
aren’t
any
astronomers
here
because
what
I’m
going
to
say
is
not
meant
for
them,
it’s
really
for
a
general
audience
to
explain
why
astronomy
and
science
is
part
of
our
culture.
Well,
unlike
some
people,
I
didn’t
really
have
a
very
firm
vector
or
ambition
when
I
was
young.
I
was
interested
in
the
natural
world,
I
remember
being
puzzled
by
some
natural
phenomena.
2
In
fact
there
were
two
things
that
puzzled
me
as
a
kid:
one
was
a
very
trivial
one
indeed.
If
you
have
bowl
of
water,
if
you
are
doing
the
washing
up,
you
have
tea
leaves,
you
spin
the
water
and
the
tea
leaves
pile
up,
a
little
pile
at
the
centre
at
the
bottom.
I
could
never
understand
why
that
happened.
It
wasn’t
until
my
third
year
at
university
I
understood
why
that
happened.
But
I
suppose
I
was
curious
from
an
early
age.
And
the
other
thing
that
puzzled
me
from
an
early
age
was
going
to
the
seaside
and
the
tides.
I
knew
that
the
tides
were
caused
by
the
moon
but
then
I
didn’t
understand
why
they
were
different
times
at
different
places.
I
didn’t
understand
that.
Again,
I
was
puzzled,
I
would
learn
much
later.
But
apart
from
that
I
think
I,
to
be
honest,
only
decided
to
do
Maths
and
Science
at
university
because
I
was
bad
at
languages.
And
to
go
into
sixth
forth
you’ve
got
to
specialise
and
I
was
very
bad
at
languages.
And
so
I
did
science,
I
did
maths
and
then
when
I
graduated
I
wanted
to
apply
my
maths
to
something
that
was
sort
of
synthetic,
rather
than
too
logical,
and
I
thought
to
do
economics
but
I
was
lucky
in
that
I
went
into
astrophysics,
which
was
a
time
when
the
subject
was
opening
up:
the
first
evidence
for
black
holes,
the
first
evidence
of
the
Big
Bang
etc.
And
so
this
was
in
the
mid-‐1960s.
And
I
was
very
lucky
for
two
reasons.
One
was,
I
had
this
very
good
mentor,
Dennis
Sciama,
who
was
a
very
inspirational
figure
who
had
several
students,
Stephen
Hawking
was
two
years
ahead
of
me
and
Roger
Penrose
was
much
more
senior,
he’d
been
inspired.
So
there
was
a
very
good
group
of
students.
And
also
it
was
a
very
good
time
because
this
was
when
we
had
the
first
evidence
that
the
universe
started
from
a
big
bang
and
first
evidence
that
black
holes
might
exist.
And
it’s
always
very
good
to
start
work
in
a
new
subject
because
if
you
start
working
in
a
well-‐established,
stagnant
subject,
you
can
only
do
something
new
by
doing
things
that
the
old
guys
got
stuck
on.
Whereas
if
you
go
to
a
subject
where
new
things
are
happening
then
the
experience
of
the
old
guys
is
at
a
heavy
discount,
so
you
can
really
get
stated
and
be
on
an
equal
level.
So
I
was
very
lucky
to
be
in
a
subject
where
things
were
happening.
But
I
have
been
even
luckier,
and
I’m
sure
we’ll
come
onto
this
later,
that
the
subject
has
remained
equally
exciting.
If
you
look
at
what’s
happened
in
the
last
few
years,
evidence
for
the
very
early
big
bang,
planets
around
other
stars,
is
there
life
out
there?
All
these
things
are
fascinating
so
it’s
been
a
wonderful
subject.
HUO:
And
you
told
me
that
it
was
an
incredibly
exciting
moment
also
because
quasars,
pulsars
and
many
different
things
offered
actually
a
testing
ground,
a
real
testing
ground,
for
Einstein’s
relativity
theory.
I
was
wondering
in
that
context
of
all
these
exciting
things
in
the
60s,
quasars
and
pulsars
and
also
the
Big
Bang,
where
would
you
say
is
the
first
paper
where
you
found
your
language,
where
you
found
your
discoveries?
MR:
Well,
I’ve
worked
in
a
rather
piecemeal
way
so
it’s
hard
to
answer
that
question.
But
since
you
mention
Einstein
I
would
like
to
say
something,
because
Einstein
is
unique
in
20th
century
science
because
his
work
had
far
more
individuality
than
that
of
most
scientists.
Of
course
the
big
contrast
between
science
and
the
arts
is
although
both
are
in
a
sense
creative,
if
you
are
an
artist,
even
a
second
rate
artists,
your
work
is
individuality,
it
may
not
last.
On
the
other
hand
if
you’re
a
scientist
then
your
work
is
durable;
you
add
one
brick
to
the
edifice
of
knowledge
as
it
were,
but
in
general
it
loses
identity:
if
A
didn’t
discover
something,
B
will
one
or
two
years
later.
Einstein
was
the
one
exception
to
this
in
that
Einstein’s
ideas
which
developed
in
1950
weren’t
motivated
by
any
real
mystery
and
it
could
have
been
20
years
later
before
anyone
came
up
with
those
because
it
was
only
in
the
1960s
that
we
observed
phenomena
where
his
theory
made
a
difference.
Newton’s
theory
was
very
good
for
everything
up
till
now.
Newton’s
theory
was
fine
but
the
concepts
of
Einstein
3
really
became
seriously
necessary
from
the
60s
onwards.
And,
just
going
back
to
creativity,
I
always
like
to
quote
in,
talk
about
the
contrast
between
science
and
the
humanities,
a
remark
by
Peter
Medawar,
a
great
scientist
and
also
a
great
writer,
and
he
pointed
out
that
a
scientist
can’t
afford
to
delay
because
they
lose
priority
but
in
contrast
when
Wagner
took
10
years
off
in
the
middle
of
the
ring
cycle
to
write
Meistersingers
and
Tristan,
he
wasn’t
worried
that
someone
would
scoop
him
[unclear
00:14:17].
That’s
the
difference
between
the
humanities,
the
creative
arts,
and
science.
HUO:
And
where
would
you
locate
your
first
paper,
where
you
felt
that…
MR:
Well
I
think
that
I
really
worked
rather
like
an
engineer
in
a
way
because
the
initial
data
was
pretty
fragmentary.
We
had
rather
fragmented
data
about
these
strange
objects
in
the
sky,
quasars
and
things
behaving
rather
oddly,
and
it’s
rather
like
being
an
engineer
where
you’re
trying
to
make
a
model
of
something
to
meet
certain
specifications
and
you’re
not
even
sure
you’ve
got
the
right
ingredients
to
put
it
together.
And
so
that’s
really
what
it’s
like
in
a
new
subject.
You’re
trying
to
make
sense
of
new
data
and
seeing
if
you
can
explain
everything
in
terms
of
the
known
laws.
And
that’s
what
we
try
and
do
in
science
but
of
course
we
have
to
be
mindful
that
when
we
consider,
observe
objects
that
are
far
beyond
everyday
experience,
tiny
things
in
the
micro
world
or
huge
this
in
the
cosmos,
we
may
have
to
jettison
our
common
sense
notions.
In
fact
I
think
it’s
rather
remarkable
that
we’ve
got
as
far
as
we
have
in
understanding
the
very
large
and
the
very
small
because
after
all
our
intuitions
evolved
I
guess,
and
they
haven’t
changed
much
since
our
ancestors
roamed
the
African
savannahs,
and
they
evolved
to
cope
with
the
everyday
world.
That’s
what
common
sense
is.
And
it’s
rather
remarkable
that
we
can,
none
the
less,
cope
with
these
counter-‐
intuitive
things
in
the
very
large
and
the
very
small,
but
that’s
what
we
were
hoping
to
do
from
the
1960s
onwards
when
we
had
evidence
for
these
very
extreme
phenomena
which
we
could
study
for
the
first
time.
HUO:
Speaking
to
Gustav
Metzger,
he
once
told
me
the
late
50s
and
early
60s,
in
so
many
different
fields,
so
many
exciting
things
happened.
But
you
mentioned
that
now
2014
is
again
a
really
good
time
to
be
a
cosmologist
because
the
last
year
or
decades
have
become,
many
things
have
become
clear
and
you
mentioned
that
we
basically
now
can
say
that
the
main
ingredients
of
the
universe
are
you
know
4%
atoms,
25%
dark
matter,
70%
mysterious,
or
71%
mysterious
dark
energy.
You
also
said
it’s
an
exciting
moment
because
we
know
the
universe
is
flat.
Can
you
tell
us
about
what
is
exciting
about
the
current
moment?
MR:
Yes.
Well,
what
is
very
exciting
is
that
many
things
which
I
thought
when
I
started
would
never
be
observed
have
been
observed
quite
precisely.
We
can
now
talk
about
the
time
since
the
Big
Bang
with
1%
precision;
we
can
talk
about
the
density
of
the
universe
and
the
main
ingredients
of
the
universe.
There’s
atoms
but
there’s
some
kind
of
other
particles
called
dark
matter
as
well.
And
we
can
also
trace
things
back
to
the
early
past
because
we
want
to
know
how
things
got
that
way.
We
look
out
and
we
see
this
panorama
of
stars
and
galaxies
and
we
understand
a
bit
about
how
they
operate
but
we
want
to
know
how
they
got
that
way,
how
did
they
form?
And
we
believe
it’s
some
sort
of
emergent
process
which
starts
off
simple
and
gets
complicated.
And
we
actually
have
an
advantage
over,
say,
geologists
in
that
we
can
actually
observe
the
past.
We
can
look
a
long
way
away
and
because
light
takes
a
long
time
to
go
a
great
distance,
we
look
back
in
time
as
we
look
far
away,
and
we
therefore
can
check
our
theories
by
not
only
seeing
if
they
match
the
present
universe
but
seeing
if
they
can
explain
what
the
universe
was
like
a
billion
years
ago,
two
billion
years
ago.
4
But
what’s
amazing
is
this:
50
years
ago
we
discovered
that
intergalactic
space
is
full
of
this
radiation,
microwaves,
and
they
have
properties
which
can’t
be
explained
other
than
saying
they’re
a
relic
of
the
hot,
dense
beginning
of
the
universe.
This
is
the
afterglow
of
creation,
as
it
were.
This
was
found
50
years
ago
and
this
allowed
us
to
go
back
and
talk
with
a
straight
face,
even
40
years
ago,
about
what
the
universe
was
like
when
it
was
a
few
seconds
old.
That’s
quite
remarkable.
And
that’s
when
everything
we
can
now
see
in
the
universe
would
be
squeezed
down
to
the
size
of
the
solar
system.
But
the,
talking
about
what’s
happened
recently,
what’s
happened
recently
is
pushing
things
far
back
further
still
because
we
understood
everything
started
in
this
hot,
dense
state,
but
we
didn’t
understand
why
the
universe
was
expanded
the
way
it
is,
why
it
had
this
mixture
of
ingredients.
The
answer
to
those
lay
far
earlier
still
and
what’s
really
amazing
is
we
can
now
talk
with
a
straight
face
about
a
much,
much
earlier
stage.
Going
back
from
the
present
time
to
when
the
universe
was
a
few
seconds
old,
that’s
going
back
17
powers
of
10.
But
we
can
now
go
back
35
powers
of
10
more
to
a
time
when
the
entire
universe
was
literally
that
big.
[Holds
hands
10-‐
15cm
apart]
And
we
have
evidence
of
that.
And
moreover,
just
before
it
got
that
big,
it
had
expanded
by
a
process
called
inflation
from
something
a
trillion
times
smaller
than
a
single
atom.
So
we
can
say
that,
we
can
trace
back
everything
we
see
out
in
the
most
distant
galaxies
to
something
which
was
smaller
than
a
single
atom.
And
this
is
not
just
science
fiction,
there
is
actually
evidence,
the
theory
worked
quite
well.
And
this
is
one
of
the
exciting
developments.
But
just
to
say
something
slightly
less
flaky
seeming,
the
other
big
development
in
astronomy,
which
we
can
perhaps
talk
about
more,
is
that
we’ve
learnt
in
the
last
few
years
that
most
of
the
stars
you
see
in
the
sky,
which
have
been
wondered
at
since
antiquity
by
people,
we
now
know
are
not
just
twinkling
points
of
light.
They’re
all
like
our
sun
and
they
are
almost
all
orbited
by
retinues
of
planets,
just
as
the
sun
is
orbited
by
the
earth
and
the
other
planets
we
all
know
about.
We’ve
learnt
just
in
the
last
10
years
that
most
stars
have
planets
orbiting
them
and
in
fact
that
means
that
in
our
Milky
Way
galaxy
there
are
probably
a
billion
planets
rather
like
the
earth.
So
that
makes
the
night
sky
far
more
interesting
when
you
think
of
all
the
complexity
lying
just
within
the
limits
of
a
single
star.
And
of
course
raises
questions
which
again
we
must
come
back
to
about
is
there
life
out
there
and
will
we
ever
go
there?
HUO:
Now
another
thing
which
created
a
lot
of
excitement
recently
are
the
gravitational
waves,
this
kind
of
news
that
the
Dark
Sector
Lab
actually
near
the
South
Pole
had
detected
this
indirect
evidence
of
gravitational
waves.
Do
you
share
that
excitement?
MR:
Well
that
was
just
some
extra
bit
of
evidence
taking
seriously
this
very,
very
early
stage
because
the
evidence
that
we
can
talk
about
at
this
very
early
stage
is
that
the
universe
contains
certain
sort
of
indications
that
quantum
effects
were
important.
And
you
probably
know
that
quantum
effects
are
normally
important
in
the
micro
world
so
if
quantum
effects
are
important
on
the
scale
of
a
galaxy
or
something
like
that,
it
must
have
been
when
the
galaxy
was
squeezed
to
a
microscopic
size.
And
so
all
these
things
that
made
all
the
hype
are
new
lines
of
evidence
that
we
should
take
seriously
at
this
early
stage.
I
should
say
that
the
announcement
two
months
ago
that
an
experiment
called
Bicep2
had
found
these
fluctuations,
I
think
they
made
a
mistake
making
such
a
huge
fuss
about
it
because
it
was
a
marginal
result
and
there
will
be
about
five
other
experiments
in
the
next
year
getting
better
data.
So
we
will
know
exactly
what
the
situation
is
quite
soon.
There’s
always
a
problem
with
scientists
dealing
with
journalists,
you
naturally
want
to
get
some
attention
but
the
risk
is
the
public
will
get
over
excited
about
things
which
are
still
at
a
tentative
stage,
and
that’s
perhaps
happened
now.
But
nonetheless
if
we
add
together,
not
just
that
experiment
but
5
all
the
others,
then
huge
progress
has
been
made
and
we
can
really
talk
seriously,
astonishingly
about
the
universe
at
that
very,
very
early
stage.
HUO:
Now
another
question
which
has
become
more
urgent
recently
and
there’s
a
kind
of
passage
on
it
in
your
text
on
Edge,
is
the
question
of
the
environmental
side
of
the
subject,
sort
of
trying
to
understand
from
an
initial
big
bang
nearly
14
billion
years
ago,
the
universe
has
transformed
itself
into
this
immensely
complex
cosmos
which
surrounds
us,
and
all
these
environmental
discussions
that
causes.
MR:
Right.
Well
of
course
the
aim
of
cosmology
is
to
understand
the
very
beginning
as
far
as
we
can,
but
also
to
understand
how
the
present
universe
came
about.
And
the
present
universe
consists
of
galaxies
containing
stars
with
planets
around
them
and
on
some
planets,
on
at
least
one
planet
we
know,
a
biosphere
evolved
leading
to
creatures
like
us
able
to
ponder
the
wonder
and
the
mystery.
And
we
want
to
understand
as
much
as
we
can
of
this.
And
we’re
doing
this
by
making
much
better
observations
and
trying
to
apply
the
physics
which
we
understand
in
the
lab
to
understand
stars
and
galaxies.
We’ve
got
quite
a
long
way.
I
mean
for
instance
we
do
understand
what
makes
starts
shine,
and
another
thing
which
I
think
is
a
really
great
discovery,
was
made
by
my
predecessor
in
Cambridge,
Fred
Hoyle,
50
or
60
years
ago,
and
that’s
the
realisation
that
all
the
atoms
in
the
universe
started
off
as
simple
ones,
basically
hydrogen
or
maybe
helium.
And
the
whole
periodic
table
of
carbon,
nitrogen
and
oxygen,
the
atoms
that
we’re
made
up
of,
they
were
synthesized
inside
stars.
Stars
derive
their
energy
by
nuclear
fusion.
They
turn
hydrogen
to
helium,
the
helium
to
carbon,
up
the
periodic
table.
And
then
when
they
die
they
throw
out
this
material
into
interstellar
space
and
then
new
stars
form.
And
so
Fred
Hoyle’s
wonderful
vision
was
that
our
solar
system
formed
from
gas
which
had
already
been
processed
through
stars
and
in
that
processing
the
[pristine
00:25:00]
hydrogen
had
been
turned
into
a
lot
of
carbon
and
oxygen,
a
bit
of
uranium
and
gold.
And
every
atom
in
our
bodies
can
be
traced
back
to
before
the
solar
system
formed
and
we
can
say
that
each
of
us
has
inside
us
atoms
from
hundreds
of
different
stars
which
lived
and
died
in
different
parts
of
the
Milky
Way
galaxy
more
than
5
billion
years
ago.
And
so
we
are
intimately
linked
to
the
stars,
we
are
the
ashes
of
long
dead
stars,
or
if
you’re
less
romantic,
we
are
the
nuclear
waste
from
the
fuel
that
made
the
stars
shine.
And
this
is
a
wonderful
way
in
which
we
realise
the
unity
of
the
cosmos,
to
understand
simple
things
like
why
is
carbon
common
but
why
is
gold
rare?
We
have
to
think
about
stars
far
away
in
our
galaxy.
We’re
linked
to
that.
And
similarly
we
would
like
to
understand
how
planets
formed.
And
the
reason
it
has
been
so
exciting
to
find
these
other
planets
around
other
stars,
is
that
of
course
when
you
only
have
one
example
you
can’t
deduce
very
much
and
we
had
our
one
solar
system
with
the
planets
in
it
and
we
don’t
really
know
whether
it’s
special,
whether
it’s
generic.
It’s
like
if
you’re
doing
animal
experiments
and
you
just
had
one
rat
to
study.
You
wouldn’t
know
if
that
rat
had
hang
ups
of
its
own
that
made
it
unusual
or
whether
its
behaviour
was
the
same
as
all
rats.
Likewise
when
we
only
had
one
planetary
system
then
we
didn’t
know
which
features
of
it
were
special,
which
weren’t.
But
we
now
have
evidence
for
hundreds
of
other
planetary
systems
and
we
know
something
about
that
question.
We
find
that
some
of
them
have
planets
like
Jupiter,
very
close
to
their
star;
there
are
lots
of
planets
like
the
earth,
there
are
huge
numbers
of
planets
about
ten
times
bigger
than
the
earth.
And
so
we
now
classify
all
these
planetary
systems
and
really
understand
how
they
formed
and
what,
if
anything,
is
special
about
our
solar
system.
So
that’s
something
which
has
been
developed
from
these
new
observations.
And
I
think
I
should
put
in
a
bit
of
pre-‐emptive
modesty
and
say
that
I
am
a
theorist
myself
but
the
progress
over
the
last
50
years
has
been
95%
due
to
better
observations,
better
telescope,
and
better
6
computers.
Computers
are
very
important
because
we
can’t
do
experiments
in
space,
we
can
only
do
computer
simulations.
And
so
it’s
all
those
things
which
have
been
so
important.
Armchair
theory
wouldn’t
get
you
very
far;
we’re
no
wiser
than
Aristotle
was.
So
we’ve
made
progress
because
of
better
experiments
and
so
it’s
the
engineers
and
experimentalists
who
deserve
most
of
the
credit,
I
would
say.
HUO:
Now
on
a
completely
different
issue
yet
it
relates
to
that
environmental
aspect
is
that
in
the
last
couple
of
years
there
has
been
an
ever-‐growing
interest
among
many
artists
in
the
art
world
and
of
course
in
many
other
worlds
in
your
books
such
as
Our
Final
Century.
And
it’s
wonderful
because
we’ve
got
both
versions
here.
It’s
Our
Final
Century
and
then
in
America
it
was
translated
as
Our
Final
Hour
right?
MR:
Yes,
well
let
me
say,
I
wrote
this
book
that
I
called
Our
Final
Century?
with
a
question
mark
and
the
English
publishers
cut
out
the
question
mark,
and
the
American
publishers
changed
the
title
to
the
silly
title
Our
Final
Hour.
Americans
like
instant
gratification
and
the
reverse,
I
like
to
say.
And
what
this
book
was
about
was
the
special
dangers
we
confront
this
century,
perhaps
we
can
talk
about.
And
one
of
them
is
of
course
that
the
world
has
a
growing
population
and
each
person
in
the
world
is
more
demanding
of
resources
and
of
energy
and
impacting
more
on
the
biosphere,
so
this
is
the
first
century
in
the
history
of
the
world,
and
the
world
has
existed
for
45
million
centuries,
when
one
species,
the
human
species,
can
determine
the
future
of
the
planet.
And
this
is
something
which
is
a
huge
opportunity
but
also
there’s
a
huge
downside
if
we
get
things
wrong.
And
that
was
the
theme
of
that
book
which
I
wrote
about
10
years
ago.
And
I
think
frankly
what
I’ve
said
now
is
seeming
more
urgent
in
many
cases
today.
HUO:
Now
you
argued
that
we’re
on
the
cusp
of
developing
and
entire
arsenal
of
new
technologies
that
will
rival
nuclear
weapons
in
terms
of
their
apocalyptical
potential,
things
like
molecular
nanotechnology
and
also
advanced
artificial
intelligence.
I
was
wondering
if
you
could
tell
us
more
about
these
advances
and
the
threats
they
pose,
and
particularly
I
was
curious
which
particular
technology
you
are
most
concerned
about.
MR:
Yes.
Well,
of
course
there
are
two
classes
of
threats.
One
is
the
threat
we’re
imposing
collectively
by
our,
what
we’re
doing
to
the
climate
and
biosphere,
causing
extinction
etc.
But
the
other
thing
I’m
worried
about
is
that
technology
is
going
to
empower
individuals
far
more
than
they
were
empowered
in
the
past.
And
it’s
pretty
hard
to
make
a
hydrogen
bomb
but
it
may
be
easier
to
make
biological
weapons
and
things
like
that.
And
the
kind
of
thing
I
worry
about
is
the
downside
of
advances
in
these
technologies,
which
have
huge
benefits
of
course,
because
one
worries
that
misuse
by
error
or
terror
could
be
catastrophic
as
we
have
the
power
to
actually
modify
organisms
more.
So
I
do
worry
about
that
and
I
think
we
also
need
to
worry
about
the
fact
that
we
are
in
a
far
more
interconnected
world,
which
makes
us
more
vulnerable.
We
depend
on
just
in
time
delivery
from
all
over
the
world
and
pandemics
can
spread
at
the
speed
of
an
aircraft.
Panic
and
rumour
can
spread
at
the
speed
of
light
around
the
world
via
social
media
and
so
it’s
possible
for
single
events
to
have
a
global
resonance.
Real
world
counterparts
of
the
financial
crisis
of
2008.
And
so
we
are
vulnerable
to
these
new
threats.
And
this
is
something
which
I
think
we
need
to
worry
about
and
try
and
minimise
the
risk
of
these
if
possible.
And
bio
is
a
risk,
some
people
worry
about
advanced
machine
intelligence.
I
don’t
worry
so
much
about
that
but
it’s
possible.
But
we
do
realise
that
the
stakes
are
getting
higher
because
as
technology
gets
more
powerful
and
as
more
people
are
accomplished
in
it
then
of
course
even
one
person
can
do
a
lot
of
damage.
I
mean
the
way
I
like
to
put
is
that
the
global
village
will
have
its
village
idiots
and
they
will
have
a
global
range.
And
I
think
that
is
something
that
is
very
hard
to
7
cope
with.
Just
take
one
example:
we
know
there
are
some
extremists,
extreme
sort
of
echo
enthusiasts,
who
think
the
problem
with
the
earth
is
too
many
human
beings.
There
are
certainly
people
who
say
this.
And
it
only
takes
one
weirdo
with
that
belief,
empowered
by
the
sort
of
biotech
that
may
exist
in
20
years’
time,
which
could
be
curtains
for
many
of
us.
And
how
do
we
guard
against
that
sort
of
thing?
The
lone
wolf
is
very
hard
to
pin
down
in
advance.
So
I
think
well,
we’re
straying
away
from
astronomy
into
issues
of
politics
and
governance
but
I
think
it’s
going
to
be
very
hard
to
cope
with
these
growing
threats.
HUO:
The,
Our
Final
Century?
book
addresses
of
course
this
fragility
you
describe
but
it
also
looks
into
terror/error,
to
quote
you,
and
environmental
disaster
threaten
humankind’s
future
and
you
argue
that
we’ve
grossly
underestimated
the
potential
risks
posed
by
modern
technology
and
say
that
humanity
has
about
a
50%
chance
of
surviving
until
the
next
century.
So
the
book
was
written
almost
10
years
ago
so
I
was
kind
of
wondering
if
you
have
since
then
changed
the
50/50
odds
for
humanity’s
survival?
MR:
Well
I
think
it’s
most
unlikely
that
we’ll
wipe
ourselves
out
but
I
do
still
think
there’s
a
50%
chance
of
some
setback
as
bad
as
a
global
nuclear
war
by
the
end
of
the
century.
It
may
not
be
a
global
nuclear
war
but
it
may
be
the
downside
to
one
of
these
new
technologies.
So
I
think
we’re
going
to
have
a
bumpy
ride
through
this
century
and
we’ve
got
to
be
alert
to
this
and
I
do
feel
seriously
that
we
fret
too
much
about
minor
risks:
low
radiation
doses,
carcinogens
in
food,
plane
crashes,
train
crashes
and
things
like
that.
We
are
sort
of
far
too
safety
conscious
in
those
things
but
we’re
in
denial
about
these
other
risks
which
may
be
improbable
but
whose
consequence
would
be
so
catastrophic
that
it’s
worth
efforts
to
try
and
minimise
them.
And
I
should
say
that
one
thing
that
I
and
some
colleagues
in
Cambridge
are
trying
to
generate
interest
in
to
see
if
we
can,
as
it
were,
expand
the
risk
register
so
as
to
decide
which
of
these
risks
we
should
worry
about
and
which
can
be
dismissed
as
science
fiction.
Because
obviously
there
are
some
of
these
things
that
you
read
about
which
are
complete
science
fiction
but
frighteningly
some
of
the
scary
prospects
may
become
real
in
20
or
30
years.
HUO:
The
other
day
I
spoke
to
Dimitar
Sasselov
who
is
the
professor
of
astronomy
at
Harvard
University
and
the
director
of
the
Harvard
Origins
of
Life
initiative
that
brings
actually
astronomy
together
with
biology.
HUO:
And
he
said
that
he
would
research
a
lot
these
extra
solar
planets
looking
for
somehow
conditions
similar
to
Earth
and
obviously
that
raises
question
of
yeah,
space
exploration,
and
I
was
kind
of
wondering
how
you
see
this
project
and
this
idea
also
of
seeking
survival
outside
Earth?
MR:
Yes,
I
was
going
to
say
that
in
Cambridge
we’ve
got
Professor
Didier
Queloz
who
was
one
of
the
discoverers
of
the
first
planets
around
other
stars
and
we
have
a
group
doing
the
same
kind
of
work,
origin
of
life
problems
as
well.
I
think
it’s
a
very
exciting
prospect
but
the
fact
is,
although
we
understand
Darwinian
evolution,
we
don’t
know
how
life
began
on
Earth.
People
are
working
on
this
now,
some
in
Cambridge.
John
Sutherland
in
Cambridge,
Jack
Szostak
at
Harvard
and
others
are
working
on
this.
We
don’t
know
what
caused
the
transition
from
complex
biochemistry
to
the
first
metabolising,
reproducing
objects
therefore
we
can’t
tell
yet
which
is
this
by
some
very
rare
fluke
that
happened
only
here,
whether
it’s
something
that
could
have
happened
on
any
planet
like
the
Earth
or
maybe
elsewhere.
And
we
also
don’t
know
whether
the
only
kind
of
life
is
DNA/RNA
based
carbon
based
etc.
or
whether
there
are
other
kinds.
So
we
don’t
know
but
it’s
certainly
one
of
the
8
most
fascinating
questions
and
it’s
one
that
one
asked
most
often
by
people,
“Is
there
life
out
there?”
And
I
think
there
are
two
stages
to
that
question:
we
want
to
know
is
there
any
simple
life
out
there,
has
this
transition
happened
in
many
other
places?
And
if
it
has,
how
likely
is
it
a
simple
life
on
some
other
planet
will
evolve
into
a
complex
biosphere
as
it
has
on
Earth,
perhaps
with
intelligent
creatures
in
it.
We
don’t
know.
People
will
take
their
bets
but
when
we’re
so
ignorant
we
shouldn’t
take
bets.
It
could
be
very
unlikely;
it
could
be
that
the
galaxy
is
teeming
with
life.
But
it’s
so
important
and
I
think
we
should
use
all
the
efforts
and
techniques
we
can
to
try
and
understand
it
better.
But
I
think
Dimitar
Sasselov
was
perhaps
thinking
about
whether
we’re
going
to
go
to
these
places?
Well
I
think
the
one
thing
we
do
know
is
that
in
our
solar
system
we
know
there
is
no
very
comfortable
place
to
go.
We
know
a
lot
about
Mars,
there’s
a
Curiosity
Rover
crawling
around
the
surface
of
Mars
now.
We
know
what
the
other
planets
are
like.
We
know
there
is
nowhere
in
our
solar
system
as
comfortable
to
live
in
as
the
South
Pole
or
the
top
of
Everest.
People
could
live
there,
and
I
do
suspect
that
100
years
from
now
there
will
be
groups
of
crazy
pioneers
living
on
Mars,
I
hope
there
are.
We
should
cheer
them
on
just
as
we
cheer
on
Sir
Ranulph
Fiennes
trudging
across
the
South
Pole
in
the
polar
winter.
But
they’re
people
of
his
cast
of
mind
rather
than
normal
people.
And
we
can’t
kid
ourselves
that
we
can
escape
from
the
Earth’s
problems
by
going
elsewhere;
there’s
nowhere
in
our
solar
system
to
be
comfortable.
Now
when
we
look
further
afield
to
the
planet
orbiting
other
stars
then
of
course
remember
they’re
a
million
times
further
away
than
planets
of
our
solar
system
so
we
can’t
get
to
them
by
any
technique
we
know
about.
But
there
may
be
some
planets
out
there
which
would
be
habitable
even
if
there’s
no
life
on
them
already.
But
I
would
say
that
is
going
to
be
a
challenge
for
post-‐humans,
not
humans.
Now
what
I
mean
by
post-‐humans.
I
want
to
make
the
important
point
that
astronomers
do
have
a
special
perspective
on
the
future.
Most
people,
as
I
said
earlier,
understand
that
we’re
the
outcome
of
4
billion
years
of
evolution
and
if
you
live
in
Kansas
or
Kentucky
or
part
of
the
Muslim
world,
you
don’t
think
that.
Most
people
here
do
think
that.
But
I
suspect
that
most
people
who
are
happy
with
that
idea
somehow
think
we
humans
are
the
culmination,
we’re
the
end
of
it
all.
But
no
astronomer
can
believe
that
because
astronomers
know
that
the
sun
is
less
than
halfway
through
its
life.
The
sun
has
been
shining
for
4½
billion
years,
45
million
centuries,
but
it
has
5
or
6
billion
years
ahead
of
it.
So
any
creatures
witnessing
the
death
of
the
sun
won’t
be
human;
they’ll
be
as
different
from
us
as
we
are
from
a
bug
because
the
time
for
future
evolution
is
just
as
much
as
the
time
that’s
led
from
simple
protozoa
to
us.
So
I
think
that
we
should
think
about
the
post-‐human
era
and
those
post-‐humans
will
have
a
technology
and
a
lifespan
which
will
make
interstellar
travel
perhaps
realistic.
The
key
question,
of
course,
is
whether
those
post
humans
are
going
to
be
organic
or
whether
machines
will
take
over
because
some
people
think
that
machines
of
human
capabilities
will
take
over
in
100
years.
There
will
certainly
be
replicators
in
the
solar
system
building
huge
constructions
in
space
in
100
years.
But
if
we
think
of
the
far
future
then
entities,
I
won’t
say
humans,
but
entities
will
go
to
these
other
planets
because
there
may
be
entities
there
already
but
if
now
then
I
think
we
should
not
think
life
is
going
to
be
limited
to
just
this
tiny
Earth,
even
if
it’s
only
started
here
because
in
the
time
ahead
life
seeded
from
the
Earth
could
spread
all
through
the
galaxy.
There’s
plenty
of
time
for
that.
So
tiny
though
the
earth
is,
it
could
be
the
most
important
place
in
the
galaxy.
And
of
course
this
gives
us
an
extra
motive
for
ensuring
we
don’t
screw
it
up
this
century
because
if
we
did
we’d
be
not
only
destroying
the
potential
for
our
immediate
descendants,
children,
grandchildren
etc.
but
foreclosing
this
future
that
could
extend
for
billions
of
years.
9
HUO:
This
idea
of
this
urgency
of
not
screwing
up
this
very
special
planet
leads
us
actually
to
a
conversation
I’ve
had
over
many
years
with
the
artist
Gustav
Metzger,
who
always
says
when
we
talk
about
ecology
no
one
really
wakes
up;
when
we
talk
about
climate
change,
no
one
really
wakes
up,
but
we
need
to
talk
about
extinction
in
order
for
people
to
wake
up.
And
actually
the
reason
we
decided
now
to
make
it
the
topic
of
this
year’s
Serpentine
Marathon,
with
Julia
Peyton-‐Jones,
Jochen
Volz,
Lucia
Pietroiusti,
Claude
Adjil
and
our
teams
and
obviously
with
Gustav
Metzger’s
inspiration.
And
I
was
wondering
if
you
could
talk
a
little
bit
about
that,
about
more
about
extinction.
MR:
Yes.
HUO:
And
also
there
is
this
book
by
Elizabeth
Kolbert
which
has
just
come
out.
MR:
The
Sixth
Extinction?
HUO:
Yeah.
MR:
Yes.
HUO:
Kolbert
says
that
over
the
last
half
billion
years
there
have
been
five
mass
extinctions
on
Earth
where
the
diversity
of
life
suddenly
contracted
and
she
says
what
could
actually
happen
now
is
the
sixth
extinction
and
that
could
be
the
most
devastating
one
since
the
asteroid
impact
destroyed
actually
the
dinosaurs.
Could
you
talk
about
extinction
and
that
sixth
extinction?
MR:
Yes.
Well,
I
mean
as
I
said
earlier
we
humans
as
one
species
are
dominating
the
planet
and
changing
the
biosphere.
I
think
it’s
true
that
40%
of
the
world’s
biomass
is
used
directly
and
indirectly
by
humans,
so
we
are
dominating
the
Earth’s
biosphere
in
a
way
that
no
single
species
has
before
and
of
course
this
domination
is
going
to
be
enhanced
as
the
population
grows
even
more
as
we
hope
the
less
developed
countries
catch
up.
So
clearly
the
impact
of
humans
on
the
biosphere
could
be
catastrophic
for
many
other
species.
And
of
course
climate
change,
which
is
going
to
be
a
certain
transition
in
the
habitats
and
vegetation
is
going
to
aggravate
all
these
problems.
And
so
indeed
already
the
extinction
rate
is
much
higher
than
the
steady
state
rate
because
of
changes
in
habitats
and
it
could
go
much
faster.
So
indeed
people
call
the
present
era
the
Anthropocene
era,
the
one
where
humans
are
affecting
the
entire
planet,
its
surface,
and
if
the
Anthropocene
goes
bad,
as
it
were,
then
of
course
there
would
be
major
extinctions.
And
of
course
there
have
been
extinctions
all
through,
99%
of
the
species
that
ever
existed
have
gone
extinct
but
this
should
be
an
unprecedented
rate
of
potential
extinctions
and
that’s
what
her
book
is
about,
isn’t
it?
It’s
a
very
compelling
book.
HUO:
There’s
also
a
lot
of
extinction
of
species
happening
all
the
time
and
A.S.Byatt
told
me
the
other
day
that
actually
there
is
a
lot
of
attention
paid
to
for
example
pandas
and
the
danger
of
pandas
disappearing
but
we
don’t
really
look
at
smaller
beings,
for
example.
She
then
asked,
“When
have
we
seen
the
last
time
a
centipede?
All
of
us
seen
the
last
time
a
centipede?”
And
obviously
a
species
which
was
extinct
that
are
the
passenger
pigeons
and
it’s
kind
of
interesting
because
one
can
clearly
say
when
that
happened.
It
was
actually
in
the
Cincinnati
Zoo
and
it
happened
around
1914,
and
[Cyril
00:44:52]
Brand
who
we
both
know
well
has
actually
now
started
a
-‐
10
R:
A
de-‐extinction,
yes.
HUO:
A
de-‐extinction.
I
wonder
what’s
your
view
on
this
idea
of
actually
bringing
these
extinct
species
back
through
de-‐extinction?
MR:
Well,
we
all
saw
Jurassic
Park
of
course
and
maybe
that’s
not
[crazy
00:45:08]
but
what
they
tried
to
do
is
to
try
and
bring
back
species
that
became
extinct
fairly
recently
so
that
the
DNA
survives
in
a
better
state
and
the
passenger
pigeon
is
one,
and
the
mammoth
of
course
is
being
talked
about.
More
controversially
people
talked
about
Neanderthals
and
that
of
course
would
raise
greater
ethical
problems.
And
I
remember
hearing
a
talk
by
someone
saying,
“If
we
created
Neanderthal,
what
do
we
do
with
him?”
Do
we
put
him
in
a
zoo
or
do
we
send
him
to
Harvard?
They
didn’t
know
which.
[laughter]
And
so
that
would
be
an
ethical
question
but
again,
I
think
there
are
sort
of
some
concerns,
aren’t
there?
But
I’d
like
to
see
a
live
mammoth,
wouldn’t
you?
So
I
think
we
wish
people
good
luck
in
doing
this
and
put
it
in
a
zoo.
I’m
not
so
sure
about
Neanderthal.
HUO:
You
mentioned
that
sort
of
post-‐human
aspect
and
that
obviously
raises
issue
also
in
relation
to
knowledge.
And
when
we
met
at
Hay
about
two
weeks
ago
you
wrote
this
wonderful
sentence
for
my
Instagram
which
I’m
going
to
quote
here.
“There
are
some
things
we
will
never
understand.
They
will
have
to
wait
post-‐human
intellect.”
And
in
a
similar
way
when
you
wrote
for
‘what
scientific
idea
is
ready
for
retirement?’
you
said
there
the
same
thing.
You
said
there
are
certain
things
which
just
we
will
not
understand.
Can
you
talk
about
this
post-‐human
intellect?
MR:
Yes,
well
of
course
all
scientists
know
that
science
is
really
just
beginning
and
as
science
advances,
we
have
a
growing
consensus
but
the
periphery
gets
longer
and
new
questions
can
be
posed
that
couldn’t
have
been
posed
before.
That’s
certainly
been
the
experience
of
science
up
till
now
and
we
are
not
running
out
of
new
problems,
and
there’s
a
huge
amount
that
we
can
understand.
I
think
none
the
less
we
need
to
be
mindful
that
there
may
be
some
aspects
of
reality
which
we
may
not
even
been
aware
of
and
which
we
could
never
understand.
Because
after
all
a
chimpanzee
isn’t
aware
of
Newton’s
Laws
of
Motion
or
Einstein;
it’s
not
aware
of
them
and
couldn’t
understand
them.
There’s
no
particular
reason
that
our
human
brains,
at
this
particular
stage
of
evolution,
should
be
matched
to
understanding
all
the
deepest
level
of
reality.
As
I
said
at
the
beginning
it’s
amazing
that
we
have
made
progress
in
getting
beyond
the
intuitive
everyday
world
and
understand
the
sub-‐
atomic
world
of
the
quantum
and
the
cosmos
to
some
extent.
But
there
may
be
things
that
we
just
can
never
grasp.
And
I
think
we
need
to
accept
that.
Of
course
cyborgs,
where
we
are
link
to
computers,
that
may
help
us
a
bit
but
there
may
be
some
conceptual
limitations
for
human
beings.
But
we
mustn’t
sort
of
use
this
to
discourage
scientific
exploration
because
if
this
became
widely
believed
it
would
be
engendering
defeatism
and
that’s
not
what
we
want.
So
I
think
most
sciences
are
just
beginning
but
at
some
stage
we’ve
got
to
accept
there
may
be
some
areas
we
never
understand
and
there
may
be
some
aspects
of
reality
which
we’re
just
not
aware
of.
There’s
no
particular
reason
why
we
are
the
culmination
and
we’re
matched
to
understand
everything
in
the
natural
world.
HUO:
We
discussed
earlier
about
your
interest
in
science
fiction
and
in
literature.
And
I
thought
that
would
be
interesting
here
because
you’ve
got
a
whole
conversation
started
in
relation
to
the
question
of
your
link
also
to
art
and
to
literature
and
you
often
have
dialogues,
and
friendships
actually,
within
the
world
of
science
fiction.
Can
you
tell
us
a
little
bit
what
in
science
fiction
interests
you
most?
11
MR:
Well,
I
should
say
I’m
not
an
avid
reader
of
science
fiction.
I’ve
read
some
of
the
classics,
I
knew
Arthur
C.
Clarke
a
bit
and
of
course
Brian
Aldiss
who
was
very
excited
when
astronomers
discovered
a
planet
orbiting
a
double
start,
which
he’d
written
a
story
about
a
planet
with
two
suns
in
its
sky.
He
was
excited
they
found
that.
But
I
certainly
hugely
admire
some
of
the
classics
of
science
fiction
and
one
person,
if
you
ask
me
to
promote
a
single
science
fiction
writer,
it’s
someone
called
Olaf
Stapledon.
How
many
people
here
have
heard
of
Olaf
Stapledon?
Yes,
that’s
sadly
few
but
I’d
recommend
Olaf
Stapledon.
He
was
a
philosophy
lecturer
at
Liverpool
and
he
wrote
some
books
in
the
1930s,
in
particular
one
called
Last
and
First
Men
which
actually
did
think
about
you
know
the
future,
the
future
stretching
billions
of
years
ahead,
and
also
an
even
more
amazing
book
called
Starmaker.
Starmaker
is
a
sort
of
creator
of
universes
and
he
had
in
this
book
the
idea
of
universe
of
many
dimensions
and
the
idea
of
a
universe
exfoliating,
what
we
now
called
the
Every
Theory
of
Quantum
Mechanics
where
every
option
is
taken
and
the
universe
divides,
and
all
these
wonderful
ideas.
And
he
was
so
imaginative
and
I
think
he
ought
to
be
well
known
and
I
think
these
people
are
very
inspiring.
Incidentally
Olaf
Stapledon
inspired
Arthur
C
Clarke,
and
John
Maynard
Smith,
the
great
biologist,
and
they
both
read
the
same
copy
in
the
same
public
library
in
Devon.
The
very
same
copy
of
Last
and
First
Men.
But
Olaf
Stapledon
was
I
think
a
real
visionary
and
I
certainly
tell
my
students
they’d
do
better
to
read
first
rate
science
fiction
and
second
rate
science,
which
is
certainly
more
entertaining
and
perhaps
no
more
likely
to
be
wrong.
And,
but
I
say
that
I’m
not
a
huge
reader
of
science
fiction
because
it’s
often
not
great
literature
and
I
therefore
recommend
another
book.
It’s
a
book
called
Aliens
by
my
friends
Ian
Stewart
and
Jack
Cohen.
And
what
they
did
was
they,
in
effect,
digested
the
plots
of
about
100
scientific
books
about
Aliens
and
I
wish
there
were
more
books
like
that
so
that
you
could
actually
understand
the
concepts
without
ploughing
through
the
whole
book
because
it’s
the
ideas
which
are
so
original
and
I
think
we
can
learn
a
lot
from
the
concepts
of
science
fiction.
HUO:
Do
you
have
dialogues
with
visual
artists?
MR:
Not
so
much.
I
mean
I’m
privileged
to
know
quite
a
few
of
them,
Anthony
Gormley
and
others,
and
also
another
sculptor
I
admire
as
much
as
Anthony
Gormley,
who
ought
to
be
better
known,
Helaine
Blumenfeld
in
Cambridge
who
I
think
is
a
wonderful
sculptor.
And
I
know
some
painters,
my
wife’s
family
knew
David
Piper
very
well;
we
have
some
Piper
originals
in
our
home
so
we
have
some
interest
in
the
visual
arts.
But
I’ve
never
tried
to
paint
myself.
I
play
piano
very
badly
but
I’ve
never
really
tried
to
paint.
But
I
follow
them
and
I
was
a
trustee
of
the
British
Museum
so
I’m
interested
in
that
sort
of
area.
HUO:
I
think
I’ve
got
time
for
maybe
two
or
three
last
questions.
I’ve
got
about
100
more
questions,
I
need
to
now
edit
them
all
down.
One
of
the
things
which
I
thought
is
very
urgent
not
to
forget
and
it
kind
of
ties
in
with
science
fiction
from
before,
this
is
the
idea
of
the
multiverse.
It
was
actually
a
science
fiction
writer
who
years
ago
for
the
first
time
explained
to
me
the
multiverse,
was
Bruce
Sterling,
and
this
is
the
whole
idea
of
many
parallel
realities.
Can
you
tell
us
more
about
the
multiverse?
MR:
Yes,
well
basically
it’s
the
idea
that
there’s
a
lot
more
to
physical
reality
than
what
astronomers
normally
call
the
universe.
As
you
probably
know,
if
you
look
through
a
telescope
we
can
probably
see
literally
billions
of
galaxies,
each
like
the
Milky
Way,
the
distant
ones
looking
like
very
faint
smudges
so
we
can
see
out
to
a
huge
distance.
But
there’s
a
sort
of
horizon
to
how
far
we
can
see
which
is
set
by
the
maximum
distance
light
could
have
got
to
us
since
the
Big
Bang.
And
that’s
not
physically
real
any
more
than
if
you’re
in
the
middle
of
the
ocean,
the
horizon
around
you
isn’t
physical
real.
And
if
you’re
12
on
the
ocean
you
don’t
think
the
ocean
actually
necessarily
stops
just
beyond
your
horizon.
Likewise
the
universe
may
go
on
far,
far
further
than
the
most
distinct
galaxies
that
we
can
see.
Indeed
it
might
go
on
so
far
that
every
combinatorial
option
is
repeated
so
there’s
another
lecture
room
with
another
group
of
people
like
this
doing
the
same
as
we’re
doing.
And
so
it
might
be
some
comfort
that
far
beyond
the
horizon
we
all
may
have
an
Avatar
who
makes
the
right
decision
when
we
make
the
wrong
decision.
But
that’s
not
all.
This
is
all
the
aftermath
of
our
Big
Bang,
as
it
were.
And
the
most
remarkable
consequences
of
some
of
these
theories,
and
this
is
one
of
the
issues
that
comes
into
the
[unclear
00:54:53]
universe
is
that
our
Big
Bang
may
not
be
the
only
one.
There
may
be
other
domains
of
space
and
time
created
by
other
big
bangs
quite
separate
from
ours,
not
directly
observable
at
all.
And
the
other
question
then
is
would
these
other
Big
Bangs
be
governed
by
the
same
physics
as
our
region
of
space?
We
know
incidentally
that
all
the
parts
of
our
universe
we
can
observe
are
governed
by
the
same
laws
of
physics.
The
atoms
in
a
distant
galaxy
which
we
can
understand,
spectroscopy,
they’re
just
the
same
as
the
atoms
in
the
lab.
Gravity
is
the
same
strength
everywhere.
But
in
these
other
domains
that
we
can’t
observe
maybe
the
laws
of
physics
are
different.
Maybe
electrons
don’t
exist,
maybe
gravity
is
much
stronger
or
much
weaker
and
so
they’d
be
completely
different.
They
might
not
have
stars
in
them
etc.
And
so
one
idea
is
that
there
are
huge
numbers
of
Big
Bangs
giving
rise
to
huge
numbers
of
cosmoses
but
most
of
those
cosmoses
are
sterile
or
still
born
as
it
were
because
the
laws
of
physics
in
them
don’t
allow
complexity
to
evolve.
They
don’t
allow
anything
like
the
chain
of
events
that’s
led
from
atoms
to
starts
to
planets
to
biospheres,
here
in
our
universe.
And
so
this
is
a
grand
conception
and
so
in
this
conception
it
takes
our
Copernican
demotion
one
stage
further
as
it
were
and
it
means
that
our
view
of
physical
reality
may
be
as
incomplete
as
the
view
of
a
sort
of
a
sort
of
plankton
in
a
spoonful
of
water
is
not
aware
of
the
rest
of
the
earth.
Likewise
there
may
be
far
more
to
physical
reality.
And
that’s
certainly
a
consequence
of
some
of
these
theories,
and
of
course
science
fiction
has
lots
of
variants
on
this.
HUO:
Now
you’ve
written
I
think
more
than
500
papers,
you’ve
told
us
tonight
so
many
wonderful
things
about
the
books
you’ve
written.
I
was
wondering
are
there
any
unrealised
projects
of
Martin
Rees?
I
mean
Doris
Lessing
once
told
me
there
are
the
things
one
didn’t
dare
to
do
but
then
there
are
obviously
the
things
one
so
far
hasn’t
had
the
time
to
do,
there
are
things
which
are
atopic,
the
impossible
projects.
What
are
your
unrealised
projects?
MR:
Well,
I
would
hope
my
best
work
is
just,
is
still
to
come
but
realistically
I
think
it’s
unlikely
given
my
age.
But
I
certainly
am
continuing
to
work
on
trying
to
understand
not
only
the
multiverse
but
more
mundane,
in
a
sense,
questions
about
how
the
very
first
stars
first,
how
the
galaxies
formed
etc.
being
encouraged
by
the
fact
that
there
are
new
telescopes
being
built
that
are
going
to
give
us
a
far
clearer
picture
of
these
very
early
stages
when
the
embryonic
structures
that
our
universe
consists
of,
are
being
formed.
I’m
very
lucky
to
be
in
a
large
institute
in
Cambridge
where
we
have
people
making
observations
by
all
techniques,
space
and
radio
and
optical
and
x-‐ray
and
all
that,
trying
to
make
sense
of
it
all.
And
the
other
thing
that’s
happening,
as
I
mentioned
briefly,
computers
are
very
much
more
powerful
now
and
we
can’t
of
course
do
experiments
on
galaxies
but
we
can
do
experiments
in
the
virtual
world
of
a
computer.
We
can
ask
what
would
happen
if
two
stars
crashed
together,
what
happens
if
a
planet
crashes
into
the
Earth,
what
happens
if
stars
explode
etc.
And
so
we
can
develop
our
intuition
by
doing
these
experiments
in
our
computer
and
that’s
very
valuable.
I
should
say
that
I
myself
feel
a
bit
of
an
academic
dinosaur
because
I
did
lots
of
my
own
work
before
computers
were
good
enough
to
really
help
very
much.
I
did
sort
of
simple
models
etc.
but
in
the
last
10
years
computer
models
have
got
so
realistic
that
I
tell
students
they’ve
got
to
be
advised
by
someone
who
is
more
adept
than
I
would
ever
be
at
13
coding
computers
to
make
use
of
the
huge
computer
power
because
this
is
wonderful
and,
as
you
know,
computers
are
now
used
to
replace
wind
tunnels
when
[unclear
00:59:19]
want
to
test
wing
shapes.
And
we
have
no
option
but
to
use
computers
to
study
things
in
the
cosmos
but
it’s
amazing
how
much
we
can
do.
And
so
I
hope
that
I
can
at
least
work
with
other
people
and
try
to
understand
these
things
better.
HUO:
And
one
thing
in
relation
to
unrealised
projects:
often
when
I
ask
scientists
about
unrealised
projects
they
mention
actually
that
they
have
exhibition
projects
and
obviously
as
this
whole
conversation
started
out
of
a
conversation
related
to
an
exhibition,
I
was
very
curious
to
know
if
you
had
any
exhibition
projects,
any
curatorial
projects
you
wanted
to
do?
MR:
Well
of
course
the
one
thing
about
astronomy
as
it
is,
it’s
objects
of
study
are
sort
of
very
photogenic
because
you
see
everyone’s
seen
pictures
of
the
Hubble
Telescope
and
if
you
come
to
our
institute
you
find
the
walls
are
covered
with
all
these
wonderful
pictures
and
of
course
computer
graphic
movies
are
now
very
educational
but
also
aesthetically
attractive.
And
I
think
it’s
wonderful
that
the
new
discoveries
in
astronomy
are
as
aesthetic
as
the
old
ones,
and
of
course
everyone’s
looked
up
at
the
stars
and
I’d
like
to
say
that
astronomy
is
one
of
the
oldest
sciences
and
it’s
the
most
universally
environmental
science
because
the
starry
sky
is
the
one
feature
of
our
environment
that’s
been
shared
by
all
humans
throughout
history
and
we
can
now
still
look
up
and
wonder
at
the
mystery
of
it,
but
we
can
now
use
modern
knowledge
to
realise
it’s
far
more
wonderful
than
the
ancients
thought
it
was.
And
we
can
understand
it
and
get
close
up
pics
of
the
things
in
it
but
it’s
still
got
a
beauty
which
can
be
appreciated
by
even
those
who
aren’t
expert
in
it.
And
I
would
certainly
myself
find
my
professional
work
less
satisfying
if
I
could
only
talk
to
a
few
fellow
specialists.
I
think
it’s
very
gratifying
that
a
wide
public
is
interested
in
what’s
up
there,
is
there
life
out
there
etc.
And
it
is
part
of
our
culture
and
of
course
it’s
the
most
universal
culture
because
everyone,
irrespective
of
their
nation
or
their
faith,
looks
up
at
the
same
sky
and
wonders
about
it.
And
there’s
far
more
we
can
tell
them
now
than
ever
in
the
past
and
10
or
30
years
from
now
it
will
be
more
wonderful
still.
HUO:
There
could
not
be
a
better
moment
to
open
it
up,
Martin.
Thank
you
very,
very
much.
[Applause]
So
now
is
your
time
to
ask
questions
and
actually
so
I
think
the
way
to
do
is
that
best
you
raise
your
hand
and
then
we
can
have
one
of
the
team
members
bring
the
microphone.
So
please
wait
for
the
microphone
before
asking
the
question.
We
also
have
actually
questions
I
think
from
the
live
broadcast
so
both
are
parallel
realities.
So
what
are
questions
for
Martin?
MR:
Yes,
there’s
someone
at
the
back
there.
HUO:
There’s
one
here.
M1:
Thank
you
very
much
for
an
illuminating
talk.
I
have
a
question
about
the
relationship
between
science
and
morality.
You
gave
us
a
very
strong
picture
of
science
advancing
factually
and
being
the
bearer
of
progress
but
clearly
by
some
of
the
scenarios,
the
more
problematic
scenarios
you
paint
in
your
books
that
science
has
also
possibly
got
some
things
wrong
or
has
contributed
to
the
possibility
of
things
going
very
wrong.
And
I
wondered
if
I
could
ask
you
to
reflect
a
little
more
on
that
relationship
between
science
and
morality?
MR:
Yes.
Well
most
scientific
discoveries
of
course
can
be
used
for
human
benefit
or
the
reverse
and
when
that
discovery
is
made
those
that
make
the
discovery
normally
don’t
know
what
it’s
going
to
be
used
for.
I
mean
to
take
an
example,
those
that
invented
laser
used
ideas
of
14
Einstein
40
years
earlier,
they
didn’t
know
it
would
be
used
for
DVDs
or
for
eye
surgery
etc.
And
so
I
think
when
scientists
may
do
experiments
or
make
discoveries
they
are
motivated
by
a
search
for
knowledge
and
they
can’t
foresee
the
implications.
But
of
course
I
think
scientists
do
have
a
special
obligation
to
engage
with
the
public
when
their
work
is
being
applied.
If
their
work
has
a
dangerous
downside
I
think
they
have
an
obligation
to
alert
the
public
to
that
and
to
engage.
But
they
should
do
this
bearing
in
mind
that
they
have
no
special
credentials
when
they
get
outside
their
speciality.
And
I
think
it’s
very
important,
and
this
is
important
in
the
case
of,
say,
nuclear
power,
climate
change
and
all
these
other
areas
to
keep
clear
water
between
science
on
the
one
hand
and
the
policy
or
applications
on
the
other.
Scientists
should
try
and
give
a,
present
what
it
a
consensus,
what’s
still
uncertain
in
the
science
itself.
They
can
perhaps
present
politicians
with
a
set
of
policy
options
but
as
between
those
policy
options
they
should
have
no
more
say
than
anyone
else.
They
have
a
special
obligation
I
think
to
engage
but
not
otherwise.
In
fact
I
had
the
privilege
of
knowing,
when
I
was
younger,
some
of
the
great
scientists
who
worked
on
the
Manhattan
Project,
Hans
Bethe,
Jo
Rotblat
and
people
like
that.
And
these
people
returned
to
civilian
life
but
they
felt
an
obligation
to
try
and
harness
and
tame
the
powers
they
had
helped
unleash
and
they
devoted
their
time
to
arms
control.
And
I
think
that’s
their
responsibility
because
the
other
way
to
put
it
is
that
scientists
have
ideas
and
your
ideas
are
like
your
children
and
even
though
you
may
not
have
much
control
about
your
teenage
kids,
you’re
a
poor
parent
if
you
don’t
care
what
happens
to
them.
Similarly,
if
you’re
a
scientist
you
may
not
be
able
to
control
how
your
ideas
are
used
but
you
ought
to
care
about
it.
I
don’t
know
if
that
answered
your
question?
I
don’t
know.
HUO:
Two
questions
here
on
the
left.
One
in
the
middle
and
one
behind.
F1:
Could
you
say
anything
about
how
the
inventions
and
advances
in
photography
have
contributed
to
our
understanding
of
the
universe?
MR:
Sorry?
F1:
How
the
inventions
and
advances
in
photography
have
contributed
to
our
understanding
of
the
universe?
MR:
What
inventions
have
contributed?
HUO:
In
photography.
MR:
Sorry?
HUO:
In
photography.
MR:
In
photograph?
Yes,
well
I
mean
photography
was
crucial
in
the
early
stages
because
if
you
look
through
a
telescope
at
say
the
Andromeda
galaxy
you’re
always
very
disappointed
because
it
looks
a
very
faint
blur.
And
of
course
the
images
which
you
see
in
books
are
long
exposures
to
photography
is
important.
But
there
was
another
leap
forward
in
the
1980s
where
photographic
plates
were
replaced
by
solid
state
detectors,
which
are
nearly
100
times
more
sensitive.
The
quantum
efficiency
of
photographic
plates
are
about
1%,
solid
state
detectors
are
80%.
So
that
immediately
made
telescopes
nearly
100
times
more
sensitive.
And
that
meant
for
instance
that
an
amateur
now
with
a
10
inch
amateur
mirror,
small
telescope,
could
do
the
kind
of
things
which
could
be
done
with
100
inch
telescope
on
Mount
Wilson,
which
was
the
world’s
biggest
telescope
in
the
1930s.
So
it’s
the
technology
15
which
has
advanced
and
being
able
to
detect
faint
objects
has
been
crucially
enhanced
by
replacing
photography
by
more
sensitive
methods.
HUO:
It’s
also
interesting
that
actually
many
photographers,
Wolfgang
Tillmans
for
example,
as
teenagers
want
to
become
astronomers
and
then
go
into
photography,
and
maybe
vice
versa?
MR:
Yes,
yes.
HUO:
There
is
a
question
here
in
the
middle,
and
then
we
have
a
question
in
the
last
row
here.
A
question
in
the
middle
here
on
the
left.
M2:
Thank
you
very
much.
Two
questions:
do
scientists
know
what
started
the
Big
Bang.
Have
they
any
idea
what
actually
started
it?
And
secondly,
do
you
think
scientists
will
ever
know
what
was
before.
Was
there
a
universe
before
or
what?
MR:
Well
those
are
really
linked
questions.
I
think
the
answer
is
we
don’t
yet
know.
I
think
the
amazing
thing
is
that
we
can
trace
the
causal
chain
back
to
this
immensely
compact,
dense
state.
But
the
problem
is
that
the
conditions
there
are
so
extreme
that
the
physics
is
very
uncertain.
The
physics
is
far
beyond
anything
that
ever
simulates
on
Earth
in
the
lab.
So
it’s
very
uncertain.
And
that’s
why
all
this
very
early
universe,
before
the
first
second,
is
uncertain.
But
I
think
we
will
make
progress.
But
the
other
point
is
that
one
of
the
things
that
may
happen
is
that
we
have
to
jettison
more
of
our
common
sense
concepts.
You’re
used
to
the
idea
that
when
we
divide
this
table
up
eventually
we
get
down
to
individual
atoms
and
we
can’t
divide
it
up
more.
We
may
find
that
we
can’t
divide
up
space
and
time
into
infinitely
small
quantities.
We
may
get
down
to
some
bedrock
structure
where
space
and
time
get
very
complicated
and
then
the
whole
idea
of
three
dimensions
of
space
and
one
of
time
may
break
down,
and
so
the
idea
of
before
and
after
is
not
clear
cut.
But
the
main
answer
to
your
question
is
we’ve
pushed
things
back
a
long
way
and
we’ve
got
a
lot
further
to
go.
But
whether
our
Big
Bang
will
prove
to
be
the
only
one
or
not
we
don’t
know.
But
the
whole
idea
before
and
after
of
course
only
makes
sense
if
you
have
a
clock
ticking
away
and
that
concept
may
have
to
be
abandoned.
But
we
can
ask
the
question
‘how
much
more
is
it
a
physical
than
the
part
we
can
observe?’
HUO:
A
question
here
in
the
second
row
on
the
left.
M3:
It
seems
like
an
odd
question
but
we
use
the
word
beauty
a
great
deal,
say
look
up
there
and
you
see
the
beautiful,
you
know…
it
reminds
me
I
saw
a
dramatization
of
the
discovery
of
the
double
helix,
Crick
and
so
on.
MR:
Right.
M3:
And
during
the
film
what
struck
me,
it
must
have
been
20
years
ago,
was
that
Crick,
oh
what’s
the
other
one’s
name?
MR:
[unclear
01:11:27].
Yes,
it
was
a
wonderful
TV
documentary,
wasn’t
it?
M3:
And
he
came
in
and
they’d
made
a
model
of
the
structure
and
he
came
in
and
said,
“It
can’t
be
right”
but
the
technicians
and
so
on
said,
“It
must
be
right,
you
know,
the
mathematics
is
correct.”
He
said,
“It
can’t
be
right;
it’s
ugly.”
And
when
they
did
make
the
final
model
of
16
the
double
helix
it
was
beautiful.
Now
what
strikes
me
is
what
constitutes
for
you
the
idea
of
beauty?
MR:
Well,
I
mean,
I
think
well
obviously
there’s
two
levels.
One
is
that
everyone
can
appreciate
the
beauty
of
the
sky
and
nebulae
just
as
everyone
can
appreciate
the
beauty
of
a
rainforest
or
something
and
then
you
appreciate
it
at
a
deeper
level
if
you
understand
the
details.
But
I
think
what
you’re
saying
really
is
that
concepts
have
an
austere
beauty
if
they
are
surprisingly
simple
and
unify
previously
unrelated
concepts,
so
if
we
think
of
the
double
helix
as
an
example
which
was
a
wonderful
idea.
Everyone
can
understand
how
it
leads
to
replication.
Einstein’s
theory
is
a
fine
example
of
something
which
gives
a
new
insight
into
space,
time
and
gravity
which
is
a
wonderful
idea
and
the
idea
of
plate
tectonics
and
continental
drift,
that’s
another
unifying
idea
which
tied
together
lots
of
unrelated
facts.
So
I
think
the
great
advances
in
science
are
the
unifying
ideas
which
link
together
previously
unrelated
facts
and
they
have
a
sort
of
beauty
and
you
really
see
how
the
jigsaw
fits
together.
HUO:
It’s
fascinating,
this
lovely
letter,
actually
Francis
Crick
who
co-‐discovered
the
double
helix,
he
wrote
this
letter
to
his
son
and
it
was
before
the
results
were
published
and
he
very
excitedly
tells
his
son
-‐
MR:
Yes,
that’s
a
remarkable
letter,
yes.
HUO:
And
how
beautiful
it
is;
it’s
all
about
beauty.
I’ve
got
a
question
in
the
last
row
on
the
right.
M4:
Thank
you
very
much.
I’m
Dr
Bali
da
Silva,
originally
from
Ceylon
and
it
so
happens
that
I
was
a
friend
of
Sir
Arthur
C
Clarke
about
23
years
ago.
So
I
thought
you
might
be
curious
about
that.
Of
course
I
also,
as
a
kid,
I
set
up
the
first
Space
Club
in
Ceylon
about,
what
50
years
ago,
right,
60?
And
of
course
the
Buddha
endorsed
that
there
are
billions
of
galaxies
or
universes,
in
Buddha’s
own
words
which
is
documented,
well
known,
endorsed
by
Einstein
as
well.
Okay,
so
this
is
very
interesting,
this
whole
area.
And
the
question
is:
do
we
space
travel
via
our
cycle
of
[free
birds
01:14:40]?
It
would
be
very
interesting
to
explore
this;
I’d
be
very
happy
to
be
a
party
to
it.
MR:
Well,
I
think
unless
we
have
a
sort
of
time
warp
we’ve
got
to
wait
until
there’s
a
species
that
live
much
longer
before
we
can
actually
explore
the
universe
ourselves.
But
I
had
lots
of
emails
from
Arthur
C.
Clarke
and
I
remember
he,
when
jets
were
discovered,
looking
like
a
jet
coming
out
of
the
centre
of
a
galaxy,
he
wondered
could
they
be
some
advanced
civilisation.
We
don’t
think
so
but
I
remember
corresponding
with
him
about
that.
HUO:
Ken?
KA:
I
was
very
struck
by
your
extraordinary
comments
of
modesty
where
you
said
that
basically
it
was
the
observational
side
of
astronomy
that
you
thought
had
propelled
our
understanding
so
much
and
you
know
so
you
diminished
your
role
as
a
theorist.
MR:
Well,
it’s
a
symbiosis,
I
suppose.
KA:
I
suppose
it’s
exactly
that
relationship
I’m
interested
in.
So
crudely
I
suppose
one
could
say
that
you
know
it
ties
into
this
question
of
beauty,
doesn’t
it,
that
it’s
your
theories
that
have
given
the
observational
astronomers
the
instructions
of
what
to
look
for,
and
I’m
sure
you
17
might
think
that’s
too
simplistic.
But
I’m
interested
in
how
you
relate
to
that
looking
versus
thinking
aspect
of
astronomy?
MR:
Yes.
Well
I
think
there
are
some
cases
when
the
theory
does
suggest
and
experiment.
I
mean
well,
Mr
Higgs
and
his
particle
were
one
example
where
to
complete
the
jigsaw
that
particle
had
to
exist
and
it
took
nearly
50
years
before
it
was
detected
because
it
needed
that
huge
experiment.
And
similarly
some
of
the
ideas
about
the
early
universe
were
developed
theoretically
before
the
experiments
were
able
to
detect
them.
But
on
the
other
hand
there
are
a
lot
of
surprises.
For
instance
no
one
really
had
any
idea
what
these
planetary
systems
would
look
like.
It
was
a
big
surprise
to
find
planets
like
Jupiter
orbiting
stars
so
that
the
year
was
only
four
days
very
close
in
and
to
find
all
kinds
of
things
quite
different
from
anything
in
our
solar
system.
So
that’s
a
case
when
the
theories
didn’t
make
any
correct
predications.
So
sometimes
the
theories
can
help,
other
times
they’re
just
wondering
at
what’s
out
there
and
trying
to
make
sense
of
it.
HUO:
Now
we’ve
got
a
couple
of
questions
actually
from
our
online
participants.
One
question
is:
have
you
ever
had
a
moment
in
your
research
when
you
discovered
something
that’s
truly
surprised
you?
MR:
I
think
quite
often,
yes.
You
find
there’s
some
effect
which
you
thought
was
trivial
but
may
in
fact
be
quite
important
but
I’m
certainly,
as
have
all
astronomers,
been
surprised
by
many
discoveries,
many
of
the
kinds
of
objects
that
I
think
about,
pulsars,
gamma
ray
bursts
and
all
these
extraordinary
phenomena.
No
one
predicted
them
really
and
so
I
think
it’s
the
observations
which
have
been
more
of
a
surprise
than
the
theories.
HUO:
Then
another
online
question:
in
a
parallel
universe
what
career
would
you
have
followed?
[laughter]
MR:
Okay,
well
I
suppose
I
should
say
I’d
like
to
be
a
painter
but
I
wouldn’t
be
much
good
at
that.
I
think
I’ve
been
very
lucky
with
my
career
but
I
think
I
could
have
been
happy
as
an
engineer,
I
think.
Actually
making
things,
again
as
I
said,
trying
to
put
things
together,
synthesize
ideas.
Or
I
did
think
I’d
be
an
economist
actually
when
I
was
young
because
that’s
another
synthetic
approach,
so
perhaps
I’d
be
an
economist
or
an
engineer.
HUO:
The
third
online
question:
why
do
you
think
people
are
so
fascinated
by
the
cosmos?
MR:
Well,
it
is
interesting
actually.
I
find
it
very
gratifying
that
there
is
so
much
interest.
We’re
told
that
the
public
is
not
interested
in
science
etc.
but
I’m
amazed
that
there’s
so
much
interest
in
scientific
issues
so
far
from
everyday
concerns.
Young
people
are
more
fascinated
by
dinosaurs
than
anything
else;
nothing
is
more
irrelevant
that
dinosaurs
to
young
people.
And
people
are
interested
in
the
origin
of
life,
is
there
life
in
space,
is
space
infinite
etc.?
You
know
every
taxi
driver
asks
me
this
question
if
I
say
I’m
an
astronomer.
[laughter]
So
there
is
a
fascination
in
fundamental
questions
and
I
think
that’s
why,
if
you
look
at
popular
books,
they’re
about
the
big
questions,
origin
of
life,
origin
of
consciousness,
and
origin
of
the
universe.
And
the
public
I
think
is
fascinated
and
this
is
something
I
think
we
share
with
our
remotest
ancestors,
wanting
to
understand
what’s
out
there.
And
of
course
as
compared
to
our
ancestors
we
understand
a
lot
more,
we
are
freer
of
irrational
dread
than
our
predecessors
were
because
we
can
understand
more.
But
still
we
have
the
wonder.
And
I
think
most
people
do.
In
fact
juts
going
back
to
education,
I
think
what
is
very
sad
is
that
the
enthusiasm
all
young
people
have
for
dinosaurs
and
space
and
tadpoles
etc.
is
often
lost
at
the
secondary
school
stage
and
this
is
one
of
the
problems
of
course
that
one
18
wants
to
instead
build
on
that
to
get
people
interested
in
a
wider
range
of
science
but
that
isn’t
happening
and
this
is
something
which,
professionally
of
course,
people
like
myself
are
very
concerned
about.
But
I
think
there
is
a
fascination
in
these
fundamental
questions.
HUO:
I
think
we
have
time
for
two
more
questions.
I
see
a
question
here
in
the
middle,
on
the
left.
M5:
Hello.
You
said
something
very
interesting
and
very
true
I
think
inasmuch
that
throughout
human
civilisation
we’ve
always
had
the
stars
to
look
up
to.
Very
recently
we
passed
the
point
in
human
civilisation
where
most
people
are
now
living
in
cities,
over
50%
of
people
are
now
living
in
cities.
And
living
here
in
London
coming
from
a
more
rural
area
I
noticed
I
can’t
see
the
stars.
And
you
talk
also
like
the
enthusiasm
for
tadpoles.
I
can’t
find
tadpoles
here
too
well.
Do
you
think
there’s
just
going
to
be
any
change
in
perspective
once
you
have
people
who
aren’t
as
intimately
connected
or
experienced
with
nature
growing
up?
MR:
I
do.
I
think
it
is
very
say
for
both
the
natural
world
and
the
cosmos.
In
fact
in
my
role
as
Astronomer
Royal
I
joined
forces
with
the
Council
for
the
Preservation
of
Royal
England
in
supporting
a
dark
skies
campaign.
And
the
point
I
made
there
was
clearly
astronomers
want
dark
skies
but
it’s
not
just
the
astronomer.
For
example,
I’m
not
an
ornithologist
but
I’d
miss
it
if
there
were
no
song
birds
in
my
garden.
And
likewise
most
people,
even
if
not
astronomers,
miss
not
seeing
a
dark
night
sky.
And
so
I
think
it
is
an
important
degradation
of
everyone’s
environment
that
may
people
grow
up
never
seeing
a
dark
sky;
you’ve
got
to
go
to
a
remote
part
of
Scotland
to
actually
see
one.
And
I
think
that
is
a
problem.
And
of
course
it
reduces
one
of
the
stimuli
for
young
people
to
do
science.
And
incidentally
perhaps
as
a
peripheral
point
I’d
make
another
thing
which
has
changed:
when
I
was
young
kids
could
take
apart
motor
bike
engines,
put
them
together
again,
simple
radio
sets
etc.
whereas
the
technology
that
young
people
are
involved
in
now,
mobile
phones
and
things
like
that,
are
so
complicated
that
they’re
just
magic.
And
so
there’s
no,
there’s
a
big
gap
between
the
technology
that
pervades
people’s
everyday
lives
today
and
the
technology
they
can
understand.
And
that
was
not
the
case
50
years
ago
and
at
any
earlier
time.
And
I
think
that
is
also
something
which
perhaps
makes
people
lose
a
sort
of
interest
in
mechanical
things
and
engineering
and
the
physical
world
which
they
naturally
had
when
they
were
more
in
touch,
not
just
with
nature,
as
you
said,
but
also
with
machines
which
they
could
actually
understand.
HUO:
I’ll
take
the
two
last
questions.
There
was
one
question
here
in
the
middle
on
the
left.
M6:
Hi.
Do
you
think
in
recent
years
sci-‐fi
has
begun
to
guide
the
direction
that
technology
is
taking
in
terms
of,
well
everything,
but
mainly
space
travel
and
things?
Since
sort
of
you
can
imagine
Star
Wars
films
and
sort
of
books
in
that
area.
Loads
of
money
is
being
thrown
at
getting
technology
in
that
direction
when
it
could
be,
the
answer
to
travelling
the
stars
could
be
in
a
completely
opposite
direction
in
forms
of
travel
that
we
just
haven’t
thought
of?
MR:
Well
I
think
in
some
senses
the
films
are
sort
of
conservative
because
the
aliens
always
look
like
humans,
don’t
they,
and
they
may
not
do.
Of
course
people
interested
in
space
travel
by
humans
they
are
all
disappointed
because
I
mean
I’m,
perhaps
this
audience
is
old
enough
to
remember
when
men
walked
on
the
moon?
Neil
Armstrong’s
one
small
step,
whereas
to
the
young
people
here
it’s
ancient
history,
long
before
you
were
born.
And
that’s
a
big
contrast
between
people
of
my
generation
who
grow
up
thinking
of
it
futuristic
and
young
people
for
whom
it’s
a
past
event.
So
a
manned
space
flight
is
an
example
of
a
technology
which
has
sort
of
stagnated
and
so
I
think
most
people
are
disappointed
that
that
hasn’t
happened.
I
think
that
there
will
be
people
going
into
space
but
I
think
they
19
won’t
be
going
in
the
NASA
style
way,
which
is
very
expensive.
They’ll
be
crazy
pioneers,
as
I
said
like
Sir
Ranulph
Fiennes,
taking
very
risks
and
great
discomfort
and
going
to
some
other
planet.
And
I
think
there
will
be
people
who
will
go
to
Mars
but
the
first
people
to
go
to
Mars
will
go
with
one
way
tickets
and
they’ll
just
live
there.
And
in
fact
Elon
Mosk,
the
guy
behind
the
Tesla
electric
car
and
the
most
successful
private
space
company
called
SpaceX,
I
think
he’s
enthusiastic
and
he
has
said
that
he
himself
hopes
to
die
on
Mars
but
not
on
impact.
[laughter]
And
I
think
he’s
about
40
years
old
so
he
may
achieve
it.
HUO:
The
question
here.
We
can
take
two
last
questions.
The
question
here
and
then
the
question
there.
M7:
You
have
so
much
more
knowledge
of
the
universe
than
the
average
person
in
the
street.
Do
you
feel
your
capacity
for
awe
at
the
universe
is
overstretched
by
your
knowledge?
MR:
Well,
I
think
I’m
probably
muddled
at
a
higher
level
than
most
people
because
I’ve
thought
more
about
it
but
I
think
the
capacity
for
wonder
is
not
diminished
because
in
fact
just
as
if
you’re
a
biologist
you
can
still
appreciate
the
flower
in
the
way
the
everyday
person
does
but
you
have
a
deeper
insight
into
it.
Then
similarly
when
I
look
at
the
sky
I
can
still
appreciate
it
the
way
everyone
else
does,
and
the
way
our
ancestors
did,
but
also
it
seems
more
wonderful
the
more
you
know
about
it.
So
I
think
understanding
something,
whether
it’s
something
in
the
cosmos
or
something
in
the
biological
world,
gives
you
a
sort
of
extra
dimension
of
wonder
apart
from
the
one
we
all
share.
HUO:
And
there’s
the
question
here
on
the
right.
M8:
Hello,
hi.
I
really
enjoyed
your
conversation
tonight.
It
was
brilliant
and
entertaining
and
illuminating.
I
was
going
to
ask
two
questions,
one
to
Hans:
my
question
to
Hans
in,
how
do
you
think
Martin’s
interpretation
of
the
cosmos
or
juts
what
he
said
tonight,
changes
your
perspective
of
curating?
And
to
Martin,
my
question
is
to
you,
you
spoke
very
calmly
about
a
lot
of
these
different
things
which
to
myself
or
maybe
to
other
people
would
be
terrifying,
you
know,
thinking
about
the
sun
fading
five
billion
years
from
now,
or
what
we
can
do
between
now
and
then.
But
how
did
you
come
to
terms
with
that
and
is
there
anything
that
still
scares
you
about
this?
MR:
You
first?
[laughs]
HUO:
To
answer
your
question
about
curating,
I
mean
there
are
so
many
dimensions,
you
know
it’s
almost
like
in
Superstring
theory,
how
many
dimensions?
Eleven.
So
there’s
at
least
11
inspirations
coming
from
that.
But
maybe
to
give
you
a
few
examples,
one
thing
of
course
curating
this
research
and
you
know
this
project
on
extinction
it’s
incredibly
wonderful
to
learn
so
much.
I
would
say
more
in
terms,
my
question
about
the
exhibition
which
I
asked
you,
I
do
believe
that
there
is
an
incredible
potential
in
big
parts
still
unrealised
for
more
collaborations
between
astronomy
and
art,
and
it
came
to
my
mind
really
when
Wolfgang
Tillmans
actually
many
years
ago
told
me
this
story
of
him
having
been
an
astronomer
when
he
was
a
teenager
and
he
went
to
every
astronomy
conference
in
the
world
he
could,
his
parents
had
to
accompany
him
at
the
beginning
and
he
went
on
his
own
and
he
started
to
make
his
research,
and
in
some
kind
of
way
I
do
believe
that
there
is
a
great
potential
of
what
artists
and
astronomers
could
do
together.
And
you
know
that’s
maybe
something
for
the
future
to
explore.
20
MR:
Well,
thinking
about
these
I
mean
I
don’t
have
agoraphobia
as
it
were
about
the
cosmos
but
I
think
scientific
understanding
does
reassure
you
because
it
removes
irrational
dread,
which
our
ancestors
had,
to
actually
understand
more.
But
on
the
other
hand
I
think
it
makes
you
worry
more
about
different
things.
I
mean
the
things
I
worry
about,
which
I
mentioned,
are
the
misuse
of
powerful
technology
but
I
think
my
astronomy
does
make
me
reassured.
But
the
one
thing
I
should
say
is
that
having
lived
my
life
among
astronomers
I
have
to
tell
you
that
they’re
not
any
more
surreal
or
relaxed
about
everyday
affairs
than
anyone
else.
They
still
fret
and
worry
about
what’s
going
to
happen
tomorrow.
And
I’m
the
same,
I’m
afraid.
So
it
doesn’t
make
us
any
more
relaxed
about
everyday
affairs.
HUO:
I’ve
got
a
very,
very
last
question,
Martin,
for
you
which
is
a
question
recurrent
in
all
my
interviews
is
that
Rainer
Maria
Rilke
wrote
this
wonderful
little
book
which
is
Advice
to
a
Young
Poet.
And
I
wanted
to
ask
you
what
in
2014
would
be
your
advice
to
a
young
scientist?
MR:
My
advice?
Well,
I
would
advise
you
to
be
broad
in
what
you
learn,
learn
how
to
use
computers
and
pick
a
subject
where
new
things
are
happening
because,
as
I
said,
you’ll
then
want
to,
you’ll
be
able
to
do
new
projects
that
the
previous
generation
didn’t
have
a
chance
to
work
on.
So
you
want
to
do
a
subject
where
new
things
are
happening
or
where
you
have
new,
much
better
equipment
than
the
earlier
generation
had.
And
also,
another
piece
of
advice
I
give
to
my
students,
is
don’t
necessarily
work
on
what
you
think
is
the
most
important
problem.
There
are,
in
my
view,
too
many
people
working
on
string
theory,
which
is
one
of
the
greatest
challenges
in
science
at
the
moment.
But
what
you
ought
to
do
is
not
work
on
the
most
important
problem
necessarily
but
multiple
the
importance
of
the
problem
by
the
probability
that
you
will
solve
it
and
maximise
the
product.
And
if
you
do
it
that
way
then
you
might
choose
some
other
problem
where
you
will
be
able
to
make
progress
and
achieve
something
in
your
first
few
years
of
research
and
that
will
be
a
better
way
of
spreading
scientific
effort
around
the
very
long
frontier
which
now
exists.
But
don’t
feel
you’ve
got
to
solve
the
most
important
problem
because
you’ll
just
be
frustrated,
but
take
a
piecemeal
problem.
It’s
only
geniuses
and
cranks
that
can
solve
the
big
problems
all
in
one
go.
The
rest
of
us
have
to
work
in
a
fairly
piecemeal
way.
HUO:
I
wanted
to
thank
again
everybody
who
made
the
talk
tonight
possible.
Thank
of
course
Alice
who
is
here,
and
mention
again
that
it
is
actually
in
anticipation
of
an
exhibition
the
Wellcome
is
organising
of
hers
called
Memory
Movement,
Memory
Objects,
which
will
happen
in
2015.
So
I
hope
of
course
many
times
before
but
that
you’ll
be
back
here
in
2015
for
that.
I
hope
you’ll
also
all
be
back
at
the
Serpentine
in
October
for
the
Extinction
Marathon.
I
would
like
to
thank
all
you
who
are
present
in
the
room
for
being
present
tonight
for
the
wonderful
questions.
I’d
like
to
thank
everybody
who
was
online
again
for
being
present
and
the
wonderful
questions.
I’d
like
to
thank
again
and
again,
Martin.
Thank
you
so
much.
MR:
Thank
you
very
much,
thank
you.
[END
OF
TRANSCRIPT]
21