The Smithy: Bonaventure on the Distinction between Person and Nature http://lyfaber.blogspot.com/2008/09/bonaventure-on-distinction-between...

A mediaevalist trying to be a philosopher and a philosopher trying to be a mediaevalist w

philosophy, scholarship, books, the middle ages, and especially the life, times, and thou
the Blessed John Duns Scotus.

Sunday, September 21, 2008

In III Sententiarum d.5 a.2 q.2:

"In hunc autem errorem pessimum decidit Nestorius, ut dicit Boethius, pro eo quod nescivit
distinguere inter personam et naturam. Pro eo enim quod vidit in Christo duplicem esse
naturam, intellexit duplicem esse personam. Eutyches vero ex eadem causa erravit, sed non
eodem modo. Quia enim nescivit discernere inter personam et naturam et vidit quod in Christo
non poterat esse nisi una persona, ex hoc compulsus est ponere quod in Christo non est nisi
una natura. Et ideo sicut duo fuerunt errores in divinis, scilicet Arii et Sabellii, pro eo quod
nesciverunt distinguere inter naturam et personam, sic duo fuerunt errores circa incarnationem
verba sun
Christi, videlicet Eutychis et Nestorii. Catholica vero Ecclesia per medium istorum errorum
multa in d
pertransiit, dicens in deitate plures esse personas et unam naturam, et in Christo plures
habentia v
naturas et unam personam. Et ideo simpliciter concedit personam assumsisse naturam et
negat personam assumsisse personam, sicut Magister dicit in littera."
Links
Nestorius fell into this worst error, as Boethius says, becuase he did not know to distinguish
Absolute
between person and nature. For because of the fact that he saw in Christ a double nature, he Christ
understood there to be a double person. Eutyches erred for the same reason, but not in the
Adam Wo
same way; for because he did not know to distinguish between nature and person and saw Critical E
that in Christ there could only be one person he was compelled to claim that in Christ there Project
was only one nature. And therefore just as tehre were two errors in divine matters, namely of Albertus
Arius and Sabellius, because they did not know to distinguish between nature and person, so Institut
there were two errors about the incarnation of Christ, namely of Eutychis and Nestorius. But Analytic B
the Catholic Church passes through the middle of those errors saying that there are many of online
persons and one nature in deity, and in Christ manynatures and one person. And therefore she texts
grants unqualifiedly that a person has assumed a nature and denies that a person has Centro S
assumed a person, just as the Master says in the text. Francesc
d'Appign

Posted by Lee Faber Centro st

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The Smithy: Bonaventure on the Distinction between Person and Nature http://lyfaber.blogspot.com/2008/09/bonaventure-on-distinction-between...

Labels: Bonaventure, Incarnation personal

"Giovann
Scoto"
Commiss
Commiss
Michael said... Scotistica

I remember throwing this passage at the E.P.'s a couple of years ago. No response. Corpus T

September 22, 2008 at 7:48 PM Electroni

Grossete
Francisca
energeticprocession said... 13th-18th
Catalogu
That because it doesn't deal with the problem. It's just a restatement of John of Progress
Damascus or similar. It's almost verbatim what John says in the Exact Exposition
Francisca
Chapter III.
Intellectu

The fact is that your tradition is inconsistent. That's the claim. What he says here is Francisco
perfectly Orthodox, but it isn't consistent with belief in the Lyon and Florence filioque Digitalisie
kt
doctrine. Two persons share a property that the other doesn't have.
Glossa o
Too bad Bonaventure doesn't follow this out in every aspect of theology including most
Guide to
importantly Triadology. Century T
September 23, 2008 at 11:32 AM Henrici d
Opera O
In medias
Anthony said... (Robert P
"Two persons share a property that the other doesn't have." Internet G
John Dun
You know, this is addressed in ST, I, Q. 36, Art. 4 (http://www.newadvent.org/summa
Medieval
/1036.htm#article4). I don't know if I find Aquinas' reply particularly convincing, but Philosop
surely the scholastics were aware that this was a potential difficulty.
Medieval
and Theo
I offer this not as a rebuttal, which I leave to the more learned, but merely a rhetorical
correction of what I feel is the insinuation that the scholastics (Bonaventure among Peter Au
them) weren't even aware of this and similar issues, about which the scholastics are Homepag
frequently accused of being "inconsistent." In any case, "inconsistent" is an easy Peter Kin
charge to make, probably impossible to prove. Webpage
September 23, 2008 at 3:49 PM Peter of C
Project
Philpape
Michael said...
Provision
" What he says here is perfectly Orthodox, but it isn't consistent with belief in the Lyon Librorum
and Florence filioque doctrine." Scholast
Quodliba
Yes, that's certainly the claim, but the claim is false. You have yet to demonstrate an
adequate grasp of Bonaventure's or Scotus' (merely to speak of the scholastics we Revue
philosoph
here know the best) triadology such as to enable you to make the claim with any force.
Louvain

Bonaventure echoes Damascene as he echoes all the Fathers--because he shares the Richard R
same faith with them. Cornwall

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September 23, 2008 at 11:57 PM Scotus B

at SBU
Scotus P
energeticprocession said...
SIEPM E
"You have yet to demonstrate an adequate grasp of Bonaventure's or Scotus' (merely Resource
to speak of the scholastics we here know the best) triadology such as to enable you to
Sydney P
make the claim with any force."
The Logi
I know what the Latins of Florence taught. I know the arguments put forward by the
Thomas
interlocutors in the original. Last time I checked there is only one filioque doctrine that Scotus p
was established. If you think they have something to pur forward that is different then
Tobias H
those interlocutors, then you'll have to produce it.
Bibliogra

Damascene knows nothing of the Latin filioque, and in fact argues against the idea.

Anthony,
Funda
Thomas says in that context, "Therefore, as the Father and the Son are one God, by Positi
reason of the unity of the form that is signified by this word "God"; so they are one Duns
principle of the Holy Ghost by reason of the unity of the property that is signified in this
word "principle." Divine Si
the Form
If the Father and Son are one God, by having the One Essence, then they are the one Distinctio
principle because of that One _____ ? Divine Si
the Form
The same answers have given over and over and over since the 9th century. We're told Distinctio
the divine essence isn't the one principle, but yet when pressed it looks very much like Divine Si
this is the case. The same stuff was put forward at Florence. We're not convinced, so
Divine Si
the same critiques as Sts. Photios and Mark of Ephesus apply.
Divine At
September 24, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Divine Si
Univocity
Formal D
Anthony said...
Immortal
Mr. Jones,
Soul

Well, that's pretty much what I got out of that passage, too. It does seem like a silly Intuitive a
mistake by Aquinas if that's all there is to it, which is why I'm reluctant to interpret it Abstracti
Cognition
along those lines, and also reluctant to accuse him or the other medieval Western
theologians of inconsistency or confusing nature and person. But I'm still learning, and I Natural K
find both the filioque and its absence somewhat problematic. of God
Transcen
I'm also still skeptical if Aquinas' theory really was adopted wholesale at Florence,
Unitive C
whatever the literal wording is. What about the Franciscans of the time? It would be
nice is there were accessible translations of Scotus's writings on The Trinity (i.e.,
disparate relations).
Biblio
--Anthony Roberts Scotis
September 24, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Benedict
Scotus
Boyvin, P
energeticprocession said... Scoti, Eth

3 of 20 3/21/2018, 1:13 PM
The Smithy: Bonaventure on the Distinction between Person and Nature http://lyfaber.blogspot.com/2008/09/bonaventure-on-distinction-between...

"It does seem like a silly mistake by Aquinas if that's all there is to it, which is why I'm Boyvin, P
reluctant to interpret it along those lines, and also reluctant to accuse him or the other Scoti, Lo
medieval Western theologians of inconsistency or confusing nature and person."
Boyvin, P
Scoti, Me
I wouldn't say he's making a silly mistake. I'm saying the man is stuck, forced to deny
what he implicitly affirms. He's put in a bad position defending a tradition that is foisted Boyvin, P
Scoti, Ph
on the west by the germans in the 8th/9th century.
C. Nielse
Photios
Duns Sco
September 24, 2008 at 4:52 PM Omnia, W
Vives ed
Dupasqu
Lee Faber said... philosoph
Scotistica
Anthony,
Michael and I discussed the relation between Thomas and Florence in the combox Dupasqu
philosoph
several posts ago. I did translate Scotus' filioque question, in which he rejects the
Scotistica
dominant western argument for the filioque but holds it anyway on the authority of the Metaphys
Church (which is probably worse to the easterners. Here is a "truthy" comment of his
that while it will not make them happy, is good to bear in mind: Franciscu
Macedo,
doctrinae
"But perhaps, if two wise ones – one Greek and the other Latin – each a true lover of et Scoti,
truth and not of his own manner of speaking [propriae dictionis], insofar as it is his own,
Franciscu
should investigate about this seeming contradiction, it would appear to each at last that
Mayronis
that contradiction is not truely real, just as it is in speech; otherwise either those Greeks Prologus
or we Latins truly are heretics. But will anyone dare to claim that these authors, namely,
blessed Basil, Gregory the Theologian and Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril, and all other Greek Franciscu
Mayronis
fathers are heretics? Likewise, who indeed would dare to call Jerome, Augustine,
quatuor s
Hilary, and the other Latin doctors heretics?" naturae
September 24, 2008 at 7:37 PM Kieriae, E
Encomio
Scoto
Anthony said... Lampen,
Mr. Jones wrote: Scotus e
Sedes
"He's put in a bad position defending a tradition that is foisted on the west by the Mayer de
germans in the 8th/9th century." Heliotrop
Philosop
So goes the claim. But I have seen little evidence that the Latin filioque Maximus the Peter Sim
Confessor defended was radically different from the post-Franks, or post-schism, Scotus (a
filioque. Translatio
Petrus de
Mr. Faber: Super I S
Petrus de
Thank you for the translated commment by Scotus. I have read the combox exchange
Super II S
you refer to and it is part of what has gotten me thinking about Florence and Aquinas.
Petrus de
Super III
There is still much I am ignorant about.
Sent.

--Anthony Roberts Petrus de

Formalita
September 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Petrus Th

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de esse i
energeticprocession said... Petrus Th
"But I have seen little evidence that the Latin filioque Maximus the Confessor defended de modis
distinctio
was radically different from the post-Franks, or post-schism, filioque."
Petrus Th
The evidence is in a dissertation written by a Roman Catholic scholar: Dr. Edward Quaestio
Siecienski. distinctio
praedica

http://fordham.bepress.com/dissertations/AAI3201137/ Pseudo-F
de Mayro
Photios Tractatus
formalitat
September 24, 2008 at 10:31 PM
Scotism
(Encyclo
Philosop
Anthony said...
Sullivan,
"The evidence is in a dissertation written by a Roman Catholic scholar: Dr. Edward Over Spi
Siecienski." in the Lat
Century
Heh. I wonder how I'd justify that $34 to my wife -- I am not, after all, one of those rich Thomas
grad students. I also question the recommendation of someone's PhD. dissertation in Erfordien
this context, but thanks anyway. Gramma
speculati
September 25, 2008 at 6:38 AM
Vos, Anto
Philosop
Scotus
Michael said...
E.P. seems to be claiming here that the problem is the Filioque, but Faber's point is
rather that Bonaventure (and the scholastic tradition in general) does not suffer from Contr
that confusion between person and nature which E.P. so often claims.
Lee F
"That because it doesn't deal with the problem."
Micha

It doesn't if the problem is the consistency of the Filioque, but it certainly does if the
problem is the distinction between person and nature, such that E.P. is still arguing as
of the past few days that Latin doctrine implies a multiplication of persons in Christ Blog A
and/or a unicity of persons in the Godhead.
► 2018

I posted this there today, but since they have been known to be very free in deleting ► 2017
comments in the past, I preserve it here also:
► 2016
Photios: ". . . If essence is prescriptive and entails having person, then Christ who has ► 2015
two natures, must also have two person’s that are prescriptive of those two essences
(that’s logical order of his thinking). The union must be conjunctive." ► 2014

► 2013
Me: "Your logic is bad. Consider the following argument:
► 2012
Having an eye entails having a head. ► 2011
Bob has two eyes.
Therefore Bob has two heads. ► 2010

► 2009
Having a personal nature entails being a personal supposit. This says nothing either
▼ 2008

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The Smithy: Bonaventure on the Distinction between Person and Nature http://lyfaber.blogspot.com/2008/09/bonaventure-on-distinction-between...

way about the possibility of there being many persons in one nature or many natures in ► De
one person.
► No
We do not identify persons with natures. Consider the quote from Bonaventure on my ► Oc
blog:
▼ Se
“Nestorius fell into this worst error, as Boethius says, becuase he did not know to (12)
distinguish between person and nature. For because of the fact that he saw in Christ a Her
double nature, he understood there to be a double person. Eutyches erred for the same E
reason, but not in the same way; for because he did not know to distinguish between St T
nature and person and saw that in Christ there could only be one person he was E
compelled to claim that in Christ there was only one nature. And therefore just as tehre s
were two errors in divine matters, namely of Arius and Sabellius, because they did not I
know to distinguish between nature and person, so there were two errors about the
Fei
incarnation of Christ, namely of Eutychis and Nestorius. But the Catholic Church E
passes through the middle of those errors saying that there are many persons and one
nature in deity, and in Christ manynatures and one person. And therefore she grants The
unqualifiedly that a person has assumed a nature and denies that a person has A
assumed a person, just as the Master says in the text.” The
o
As pointed out there, I showed this passage to you over two years ago and you ignored (
it, continuing to insist that the West does not have this distinction. Instead of admitting M
the fact you claimed that it was irrelevant and turned it into an argument about the Bon
Filioque. Whatever." o
September 25, 2008 at 10:14 AM D
b
P
.
Colonix said...
In h
this is such a wonderful,well-written post! I havent been able to enjoy a post like that in I
a very long time! This is definitely genius. 'Bonaventure was one of a group of Parisian D
theologians, including the Dominicans Albert and Thomas, who attempted to set up
Uh-
Christian theology as an Aristotelian science. He therefore approached the issue of the
existence of God with a sharp distinction between principles and conclusions in mind. Bon
The question he asks is not “Does God exist?” but “Is the divine being so true that it o
cannot be thought not to be?” This Anslemian formulation offers two options: God's D
b
existence is either a principle or a demonstrated conclusion. Philosophers are inclined
N
to pick one route to God and reject all others, but Bonaventure had learned from E
Francis, the poor man of Assisi, that the world is filled with signs of God that even the
simplest peasant can grasp. Bonaventure's response to the problem of the existence of Bon
God was therefore most unusual. He pursued all three routes to God; and he even P
ranked them: Illumination arguments make us “certain” of God's existence; aitiological Sco
arguments give us “more certain” knowledge of God's existence; while ontological F
arguments show that God's existence is “a truth that is most certain in itself, in as far as
it is the first and most immediate truth' AG
S
M
Cheers, F
Genevieve C
dr natura
September 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM ► Au

► Jul

► Jun

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► Ma
Michael said...
► Ap
That might be the weirdest spam I've ever seen.
► Ma
September 25, 2008 at 8:43 PM
► Fe
Post a Comment
► Jan

► 2007

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