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Gasholes Forum
Open Forum => YOUR CAR => Topic started by: Morris on July 22, 2004, 10:17:19 PM

Title: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2004, 10:17:19 PM

Thanks to Jamo's advise ....KMP 259 is almost done.....

Then we have to start making the changes ....

It's got some interesting things on it.... like the coolers with fans...and brakes and
335X35X17 Rear tires....

Dropped pedal box.... hopefully Tom K will have it worked out so my big feet fit in
there and we can work the pedals quickly...

Just can't wait to get my hands on it.... I'm excited ...

I know it's old hat to you guy's .... but not to me...and Elkhart lake here we come....

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 26, 2004, 08:13:17 PM

Front Brakes..... 13" Rotors.... Wildwood GN Calipers...

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 26, 2004, 08:14:30 PM

again

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 26, 2004, 08:16:26 PM

again LR Caliper/Pads/rotor

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 26, 2004, 08:27:46 PM

David and Tom K. have done a great job ..... on all of the different things we wanted
to do.... just for Elkhart Lake...

Good team of guy's......correction.... The Best team of guy's

This KMP 259 is really starting to take shape....

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Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 29, 2004, 05:18:47 PM

Here's some photo's of the Dash....

It has gauges for the Transmission and Differential....

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 29, 2004, 05:20:08 PM

The gauges are Autometer Pro Comp.... Ultra lite...

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 29, 2004, 05:21:43 PM

Sub Dash has the Brake Bias and Fire handle and we have to install the Master
Disconnect switch...

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 29, 2004, 05:23:22 PM

Dash from Right side...

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 31, 2004, 07:56:24 PM

Hoppy

Let's get you back in shape first.... and get you where you can enjoy the great car
you have....

BTW..... I wish I had a nickle for every time I spun out.... I thought..... and I knew
what I was doing..... ;D ;D Didn't have a clue.... came up to the next corner and
didn't even know which way it went..... what a ride.... and the corner workers all got
a kick out of my first times on the track....In fact I got to know more of them than I
wanted to....

And as far as the Rehab goes.... I wish you the best.... and do it one day at a time
and before you know it.... You'll be bitchin about the Cobra not being fast enough....

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 31, 2004, 08:13:44 PM

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Today we're going to talk about the Front uprights....

One of the things I like about the KMP upright is that it uses Porsche bearings.... If
you notice the photo... the hub is mounted into the Upright and attached on the rear
of the upright. Big Nut clamps the hub and bearing into the Upright....

This means a couple of benefits to you.... one .... you don't have to repack wheel
bearings all of the time...... nice..... Two.... the Hub is secured to the upright in such
a way that the hub has no play.... why is that important.... because with regular
wheel bearings you need some tolerences and play so they spin on the spindle.... but
this causes the hub and rotor and such to move when you put a load on it....like in a
turn.... not a good thing....or could even have play in the steering....

If you drive these cars nice and easy on the street...then it doesn't matter....
however... if you go to a track and start trying to go quicker and load the
suspension....then the hubs will have some movement.... like rotors running into the
lower control arms where the lower ball joint is.... or even spindles breaking.... on
the originals the spindle is not very strong.... especially if you put better tires on the
car and get it to have better traction and grip....

Anyway .... these Front uprights are done the same way they do many Race cars
today.... Indy, Trans Am, World SC.... and others....

They are Porsche Bearings and will go many miles before you have to do anything to
them...

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 31, 2004, 08:15:17 PM

And another shot... of the upright....Nice and strong...

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 31, 2004, 08:21:21 PM

Here's a nice shot of the rear of the front Upright....


and you can see the nut that holds everything together.... it's probably torqued to
200#-250# Ft Lbs.....

No Flexing in the Hub or spindle....

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 31, 2004, 08:31:27 PM

You might be wondering why we are using the Steel lower control arm..... well since
we are using the larger rotor....13"X 1.3/8"..... the rotor comes very close to the ball
joint and we have to clearence the space between the rotor and the housing of the
ball joint.... the aluminum control arm was to thick and by the time we removed the
material needed to have the right clearence there wasn't much material left to hold
the ball joint....

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The other reason is were are going to go to Tubular Sway bars and will need to weld
different brackets on the Front lower control arms....to attach hemi joints....

Therefore steel is better in this particular application...

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 31, 2004, 09:38:44 PM

Ernie

You are right.... that's what I mean when I say I'm eager to see where the Heim
ends up....

The arms on the Upright are made based on a computer model and on the computer
they also will move everything thru a bump to see how it will steer ..... So then they
locate the arms and make the part..... and just assemble the heim in the center of
the two steering arms.....There's washers on top and bottom of the heim....

We'll build a plate and attach it to the hub and put dial indicators on the plate (front
and back) and move the suspension up and down thru it's travel and record how
much the plate (which simulates the wheel and tire) moves into toe in and toe
out..... then we'll move the washers under the heim or on top of the heim to improve
on the bump steer....

It should be close ... just not perfect.... and we need to set them to less than .015"
for 2 inches....of travel in the bump and the same in droop....

A car that is not bump steered is a scary car to drive.... You can hold the steering
wheel straight and it will change lanes when you hit a bump....

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 01, 2004, 06:24:19 AM

David

I wish I could take credit for the Car ..... but the David and Tom have worked out
most of the details and I'm just explaining the reasoning.... and why I selected KMS

There are many things we are going to change .....Add Tubular Sway Bars.....Air foil
to keep front end down..... Pumps and Coolers.... Low ground clearance clutch and
Flywheel.....and more.....and I'll keep everyone posted on what we do to get it ready
for Elkhart Lake next year....

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 07, 2004, 06:53:06 PM

Shock.... we all have them.... but we're not sure what to do with them.....

They are the dampner for the spring.... both in compression and rebound..... Bump

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and Droop.....

Many are adjustable but do you know when or why....

Well we're going to try and shed some lite on this subject....

When I finally figured out the why's and when you adjust shocks ... I really started
going fast.... and the best part of the equation...was that the car got easier to
drive.... and especially at speed..... like passing other cars in the infamous Dip at
Atlanta.... or on the outside under the bridge.... Wow.... I promised and prayed that
I'd never do anything bad again if I could just make it around this turn...... one more
time.....

We sure made alot of promises in the course of 1 lap..... but it was a great feeling
when you get the shocks right....

If you notice the Nascar boys have firgured it out so much they are taking their
shock after qualifying and will give them back before the race.... It's where the speed
is....

This is a shot of the Left front mount showing the rebound adjuster..... little slot in
Eye of Heim.... insert a small allen wrench and turn it a quarter of a turn .... or
commonly referred to as a sweep.... to the right increases rebound

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 07, 2004, 07:05:13 PM

Most of the time we just set the shocks in the middle position and leave them
alone..... not good....

Change is the only way in Racing..... or handleing on a car.... and it has to be


repeatable change.... meaning I have to change something and go faster and change
it back and go slower....

Repeatable is the most important thing there is in setting a suspension up....

There's a saying in the sport ....."Stiffen and Slide ..... Soften and Stick".......

Here's a shot of the upper shock ... notice a -4 Aeroquip line coming out of the body
of the shock.... and it goes to a reservoir (Can with a knob) where there is another
piston with shock fluid on one side and Nitrogen on the other side.....

The reservoir has a knob and Schrader valve so you can controll the bump and how
much Nitrogen pressure in the shock.....

This allows total control over the transfer of weight around the car..... especially
important on all four corners.....

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 07, 2004, 07:14:48 PM

Let's talk about what to do to the shocks and when....

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Car is tight or has Understeer..... Plowing condition.... very common in all cars......

Increase the rear Springs..... or stiffen the Rear sway bar..... tighten the rear.... but
becarful ... stiffen and slide...

Move more weight to the rear of car..... lift rear of car.

Lower Front Bump.... reduces load on tire.

Increase Rear Rebound... less transfer of weight

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 07, 2004, 07:23:35 PM

Now

What if the car is loose going into the corner.... Oversteer....

Increase front springs ..... Increase or stiffen front sway bar....

Loosen rear sway bar..... or decrease rear springs....

Move weight forward...... lift front of car.... 1/4 - 1/2"

Rebound needs to lower..... in the rear ... transfer more weight

Compression or bump needs to be more .... quicker tranfer of weight to the front....

Higher air pressure in the front....

Increase neg camber....

Increase Castor.... this helps on exit of the corner as well...

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 07, 2004, 07:33:47 PM

There are many things that affect the car in the corner.... such as

Differential.... is locked when you turn the steering wheel.... that means you are
going to have a push on entry to the corner... then it unlocks and you apply throttle
and the wheels start spinning.... power over steer....

Most of the time to get the car to rotate into the corner so you can hit the apex.....
not 6" away but dead nuts on each time.... you will use the rebound on the rear of
the shocks.... this really does make a huge difference.....

Then soften the bump on the rear so the power is absorbed by the springs and not
transfered to the wheels so fast.... this will help in the side bite coming off the
corner....

It's better to run as soft of a spring as possible on the rear... and use the sway bar to
control the sway or attitude of the car inthe corner...

Of course the Camber gains and curves have a major say in how a car handles ....

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but we can't do anything about that.... we can only work with what we have and
make it perform the best we can....

Knowing the Tire Temps and Pressures when you come off the track is the most
important thing you can do.... train someone to help in this area and have them do it
.....

You will be able to know just what to do to each corner based on the temps...

Just some thoughts on a Saturday night..

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: computerworks on August 08, 2004, 02:20:53 PM

KMP259 pics are all Provo-made....

http://kms.nfshost.com/kmp/0259race/ (http://kms.nfshost.com/kmp/0259race/)

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 08, 2004, 05:40:53 PM

The Photo's are done by Steve K. and I've probably been there most taxing
customer..... Hopefully I'll have the car in 2 weeks....

I doubt that you can say anything about Sales and leasing for the Kirkhams because
it has become a Morris/Kirkham.... and we've made many changes.... to the original
Kirkham....

But the real issue is not the photo's.... they are only there to help you guy's see the
adjustments....and mounting.... and various things we are doing.....

The information and experience I'm trying to pass on is the most important part of
what I'm doing....

I wondered ....if some of you were going to understand or even try to learn
something you might use at some point in time if you have a Cobra..... and even if
some of you would even know how to drive any car at speed.... and what it took to
get the car their.... and that is a to each his own....

Fortunately I've been lucky enough to have spent many hours in race cars ...from
Showroom Stock to GT1, GT2 and Trans Am and GTP..... and I'm just trying to give
some of the folks who do want to prepare a car to attain some high speeds the help
that I was afforded when I was younger.....

To those of you who don't like it.... I appologize for wasting your time........ For those
of you who do like the information....please feel free to add more information to the
variour topics...

And if you'd like me to move the thread .... I'll be more than happy to do so...

Now go Pound Sand..... and meet me on a Race track any time you want....I've been
know to give folks a half of track lead.....and pass them in 2 laps

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Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 09, 2004, 07:36:56 PM

TC

When we went to the 13" X 1.25" Rotors on the Front with the Big GN 6 Piston
Calipers.... we had a issue with the lower Ball joint touching the Rotor.....

We (David,Tom,Myself) agreed that the Rotor couldn't move over any more than
about .100".... (Rotor Centered up on the Caliper)..... Couldn't move the Ears on the
Up-right where the caliper was mounted..... so.....

We ended up going to the Steel Lower control arm on the front because the lower
ball joint is mounted in a Forged steel piece and it is thinner so it barely touched the
rotor when we turned and compressed the suspension....

Then we ground or clearanced the forging around the lower ball joint so it didn't
touch the Rotor in the bump position of suspension travel.....

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 09, 2004, 07:45:48 PM

The other issue was that we don't like the Sway bar set-up used on the KMP's.....
Front and no Rear

So we are going to go to the Tube type Sway bar and will have to make the sway bar
arms fit up to the lower control arms.... which meant we needed to weld some
brackets on the Lower Control arm to attach the end of the Sway Bar..... Not good to
weld on the T-7075 Billet Arms....

Also we believe the Steel lower control arms are stronger and will have less flex
when loaded in the High speed corners.... ie.... Road America.... Gateway Oval....
and others....

On the rear we'll just mount to the Lower shock mount....

Sorry for the long explaination

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 11, 2004, 07:07:19 PM

I was told that it came from Poland that way.... I think is't Chrome...I'll know
tomorrow am about 8:00am..... car will be delivered.....

Tom K can explain it better..... but the car was suppose to be a race car to begin with
.....they were going to run a race down in Mexico....

Don't know the name of it....

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Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 30, 2004, 07:06:25 PM

Hi Turk

Just out in the Garage Getting things under control..... like Brakes and suspension
and other stuff.....

Working on some ideas to use the Drive train to stiffen the chassis.....

My last GT1 car used the motor as a stressed member of the Chassis..... like a Indy
Car turned around backwards.......they said it' would break in half in the Dip at Road
Atlanta..... 186 MPH and it would pass any one anytime on the track...... kinda like a
John Deere.... BTW it was a Corvette Body.... and won and it's still out at the track
15 years later.....

I know you never should of asked....

Morris

Title: Re:KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2004, 06:56:34 AM

David

A simple "No" is so Cold......

And I like Turk.....

Yea a Simple "No" would have been better....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 07, 2004, 06:55:04 PM

Coil and MSD

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 07, 2004, 06:57:38 PM

Photos

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 07, 2004, 08:20:11 PM

TC

The photo size is only 60.2 KB....?

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 07, 2004, 08:22:34 PM

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Additional Fuse Block

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 07, 2004, 08:25:01 PM

Additional Relays .... Fuel Pumps, Trans pump and fan, Diff pump and fan

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 07, 2004, 08:27:09 PM

New style Fuel Pressure with return line on bottom and gauge connection on right

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 07, 2004, 08:31:56 PM

Thru Firewall Coil Terminal

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 08, 2004, 07:07:47 AM

Kool tool made out of a 9/16" deep well socket...for the switch retainer ring or nut

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 08, 2004, 07:10:46 AM

Master Disconnect will be mounted on Sub-Dash mounted to the 2 tubes coming


down out of the dash...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 08, 2004, 07:12:42 AM

Better photo of the wiring..... and this looks good....took 2 weeks to get it this far....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 08, 2004, 07:16:15 AM

Inside dash Firewall Feed thru for the coil wire.... also black box (Lights).....that
replaces silver box that's on the outside of the firewall of most KMP's

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 08, 2004, 07:19:57 AM

Battery cable...... Fire sys plumb.....wires for fuel and diff pumps and fans

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 08, 2004, 07:23:19 AM

Additional Fuse Block...Relays....#2 aircraft wire for battery cable.... breather for Dry
Sump

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2004, 08:24:45 AM

Bluedog

I believe Fuel Safe make the fuel cell used in Shelby CSX's.....

And I think they will bolt right in.....although the are much smaller.... 22 gals....

We will get to that at some point in time....

Just getting thru one sub-assembly at a time...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2004, 08:45:01 AM

This was my Map when doing the wiring...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2004, 08:48:23 AM

On the Firewall side of things .... it doesn't look to bad....and stays nice and clean....
the Harley conduit is the cat's meow..... especially protecting the wires....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2004, 08:52:17 AM

Here's the Trunk with the Fire Bottle and Fuel pumps and filter..... notice where they
are located.....

The fuel pick up is low in the center of the fuel cell....

We've run them here on many cars without a failure....for a long time....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Kris Kincaid on October 09, 2004, 06:28:05 PM

Morris,

I think the original street cars had a 20 gallon fuel tank. The Comp and S/C cars had
42 gallons. I have heard that the 42 gallon tank will only fit around 36 gallon in the
original car.

Fuelsafe made cells for Shelby. It was a proprietary design, but I suppopse that is
because Fuelsafe just used Shelbys drawing. If you want one, be prepared for the
typical raping Shelby gives you on prices. Fuelsafe will make you a bladder for any
tank you want. I belive you just send them the tank and they fit it. I have heard this
option is <$2000.

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kris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2004, 06:54:45 PM

Kris

That makes sense..... I called Fuel Safe and left a message regarding a fuel cell and
they never called me back..... ...

I guess we can send them the SS tank that comes with the KMP and have them do
it....but then the racing orgination wants to see it ...... not sure how they can do it....

Thanks for the help

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Kris Kincaid on October 09, 2004, 07:55:39 PM

Jamo,

I think it is $1600 to make a custom bladder to a Kirkham 42 gallon tank. Somebody


once emailed me about this, but I can't find the email to know for sure. I am not
100% sureon the pricing, so I used the "<" sign to mean less than $2k. :)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 10, 2004, 08:24:22 PM

Gary

We haven't come up with anything.... so we just left it lay..... got a set from Drew
Serb..... regular mild steel the dyno will tell us what to do....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 12, 2004, 08:51:23 PM

Scott

The 4307 unit is new to me..... and if it's new(what's the difference) and improved
go for it.... it plugs into a Autometer gauge and I believe Autometer is the only one
that this type of isolator works with....

The bottom port is the return line and the top ports are the input and output, and
pressure line ports...

The top little 3/16ths tube is a vaccum line port for more or less pressure based on
vaccum needs....

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The mounting bracket is made out of 1 1/2" angle 6061 T6.....

Hope this helps

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 17, 2004, 05:04:25 PM

For those of you that want to run a Diff Cooler..... Check this out...
Rear Diff cooler mounted under the drivers side quarter panel .... cooler with fan
attached.... no need to be in the air stream..... thermostat controlled .... turns the
fan on at 160 degrees.....

Diff pump will move oil and when it starts to get hot the fan will automatically come
on....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 08:46:02 AM

...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 08:48:02 AM

Here's how it's mounted

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 08:54:02 AM

Fuel lines ....pressure and return lines ....#2 battery cable.....fire sys line

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 08:56:04 AM

Fuel lines

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 08:59:59 AM

Return line returns to the vent in the tank.......and is tee with the vent line.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 09:17:22 AM

When you break a Dash screw in the tube...... take a punch and punch it thru and
install a nut-sert

Then you won't have to deal with broken taps or such....in stainless steel....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 09:20:24 AM

On a dash tab you are better drilling and installing a Nut Sert.... these have more
strength then just threading the metal.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 09:23:51 AM

The Nut Sert is really great because you don't have to have a nut behind the piece
you are attaching something to.....

You don't need 2 hands....just remove from the front side...like when you are
attaching Adel clamps for wires or hose....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 09:33:05 AM

Like having a nut behind the panel..... they are made for .030" sheet metal and
make attaching something to a panel or tube easy....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2004, 08:01:38 PM

We like the Teflon flexible lines.... running the Hard lines is fine just more difficult to
get them where you want them.....

Teflon will not weep or leak gas....as some of the rubber lines will....

The easy way is to lay the hose out with rubber hose and a push on hose end....then
take it to a Hydraulic hose shop and have him make the lines up.... easier and
cheaper in the long run..

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 19, 2004, 05:41:35 AM

I'm not sure what it's made of....

We just just the Extra Heavy Duty Shrink tubing ...and it has a wax type of sealant
inside so when you heat it to shrink ....it seals the hose....

And we only used it around the hot parts of the car....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 06:41:40 PM

I'm not sure I agree with this but here is where the K's ran the return line back to
the tank....it's the vent for the fuel tank .... I'm just not sure.... although it's a easy

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place to use as a return line hook up....

I perfer a separate fiting in the tank or cell away from the fuel pick-up....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 06:43:44 PM

another shot

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 06:47:34 PM

I'm sure the fuel will go both ways ..... up the vent line and into the tank.....

I'm sure we'll change this.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 06:56:02 PM

When we put in the Dry Sump tank we lost 2" in the foot box..... so in an effort to
get some room back ... we got some Optima 6 VDC (only 3.5" wide) batteries and
built a box and are wiring them in Series.... to get the cranking and voltage we
need.... it also allows us to move the seat back another 2 inches after we had Tom K.
reform the inner fender well.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 06:58:23 PM

#2 Aircraft wire is not easy to work with .... but you can't hurt it or burn it.....and
made with many strands.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 07:00:18 PM

The box is mounted on the bottom and the top when it is installed

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 07:04:29 PM

BTW it sit on the ledge that the old batteries sat on.... and it's on a angle with the
rear firewall....

And the Top will have the Connector for charging or Jump starting the motor.... Just
plug it in and go

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 07:06:42 PM

You need some very flexible wire to make this bend.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 07:09:28 PM

Don't know if we'll need this ......but if we do.... it's plug and go...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 22, 2004, 07:12:41 PM

You can see we put spacers under the connector to raise it up so it's easy to hook
up...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:26:58 PM

Some of the Cobra's use a little switch at the end of the turn signal lever to activate
the High and Low beam Headlights....

This relay is somewhat different because it's a Latching relay meaning when it's coil
recieves a ground ...it will energize and move the contacts from one point to
another..... like High Beam or Low Beam.....

The relay is a Volkswagon relay..... but we found the same relay used in GM cars
using a Power Sunroof.....seems like we can get the relay at Volkswagon or GM or
NAPA....which is where I went to get one.... like this...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:31:28 PM

GM numbers...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:33:58 PM

There are a couple of different kinds... meaning made in China,,,, or Mexico.....or


Germany....

We chose the one made in Germany....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:39:22 PM

One of the most important things that needs to be set up is the Throttle stop on the
floor...

Here you can see the hole for the Throttle stop to bolt into....

You need a positive stop on the floor for the Throttle..... when you're at speed you
will have to really force that pedal to the floor and hold it there....

With out a stop ....or trying to use the stops at the carb.... is just to vague....and you
don't know if the throttle bores are open all of the way or not.

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:42:36 PM

A washer welded to a bolt ..... turn the head of the bolt down so it registers in the
washer so it's straight.....

Here's 2 different length Throttle Stops.... 5/16" bolt with Larger 5/16 washer

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:45:48 PM

Make sure that the Throttle Stop washer hits the floor flat and even so it puts a load
across alot of the fiberglass.....

Cause you'll be Hammeren that Throttle...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:49:44 PM

You will also use this stop to establish where the end of the throttle will be and will
help you figure out where to set you height for the Heel and Toe....

Or as many of us did..... Toe and side of foot roll....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:53:22 PM

If you step back .... you can see how insignificant the Throttle stop is in the photo.....
but when you start driving.... you'll realize you're hunting for the pedal to stop and
not have all of the flex in the linkage when you hit the stops at the carb...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 07:57:00 PM

A couple of weeks ago we were running the battery cables up into the tunnel so we
could put the Master Disconnect Switch on the Sub Dash....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 08:01:34 PM

And the Sub dash is mounted on the two tubes running down to the frame
tubes...aluminium 6061 T6...Powder Coated black and Clear

The plate and lever on the Master Disconnect Switch is new in Jegs.... billet polished
and ..... worked well

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 08:04:57 PM

The Sub dash houses the Master Disconnect Switch...... Fire System Cable.....and
Brake Bias Knob

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 08:07:43 PM

Hopefully we'll be able to get the tunnel out without moving the Sub dash....

If not all you have to do is loosen the 4 bolts holding the Sub dash and slide it up so
it's out of the way...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 08:14:55 PM

The Dash covers the Sub-Dash just enough.... yet it's easy to reach and make
adjustment as needed

Another idea is that if you notice the Red Flip up safety cover ...it's a starter
switch.....so we can turn the key to the left for Accessiories and hit the Red cover
switch to spin the motor before we fire it up..... to make sure we have oil
pressure.....

Then just Turn the key to the right and start it like normal or use the toggle
switch.....with the main keyed ignition switch turned to the right.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 05, 2004, 08:20:53 PM

All of the switchs are the Headlight type of switch.... 3 position..... but we have them
wired so they only come on when in the top position....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 06, 2004, 06:30:48 AM

Chuck

That's right .... we are not going to use a pre-Lube system....BTW we are using a Dry
Sump

Here's a thought.... when you use the pre-lube system it forces oil out of a container
into the motor...... then when the engine starts up.... it fills the container back up
with oil......

When it's filling the container back up with oil..... are you bearings getting oil.....or is
the oil pressure reduced to the bearings because the pump has to fill the pre-lube
container first .....or here's what happened to us.....

Went around a corner.... pre-lube container forced oil into the bearings like it
should..... but then the oil pump tried to fill the container and supply the bearings.....
At 8000 RPM's ..... the bearings don't last long if you take away oil pressure..... went
thru 2 motors before we figured it out.....

So we just spin the motor before we start and get good oil pressure .... then we start
quickly and things are fine....

We also run a Warning light on the pressure side of the pump...... if it drops below
25-35 lbs we will have time to shut the engine off......like if a belt comes off or

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breaks.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: TC on November 06, 2004, 03:26:25 PM

Morris, Great work. Did you weld this tab where the lines run through or did the
Kirkhams do it? Nice looking welds.

(http://www.gasholes.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3232.0;id=3982;
image)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Foosh on November 06, 2004, 05:38:06 PM

Morris,

Honest dumb question here, and no humor intended. Is all the hype about Optima
batteries true? Does the spiral core design remove most (or all) of those dangers?
Some have claimed they can be mounted on their side, or even upside down.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 06, 2004, 05:53:31 PM

Chuck

Pat has a good idea buy using the top mounting bolt on the master cylinder as a stop
for the clutch......

Another Idea is to use the Bell stop they use on the brakes..... just screw it on the
master cylinder shaft that connects to the clutch pedal and use a jam nut with it ....
and adjust it to the point where it stop the pedal by contacting the mounting surface
the M/C is mounted to....... this should work out really easy to install and you have
easy flexibility to adjust it to any length needed....

And yes we are using the McCleod Hyd T/O bearing....new style.....I hope....never
know with those folks....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 07, 2004, 07:43:15 PM

Pat and Gary

Thanks for the info....I choose the 6 Volt Optima's because they were thinner and
would fit on the shelf or back ledge behind the seat well and have heard they were
good batteries....

BTW... can you use a small trickle charger on them to maintain the charge.....??

I have one that we use on the Harley's and it works great for them.... I think it only
puts out about 1or 2 amps and about 13.5 volts...???

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Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 08, 2004, 02:24:02 PM

Pat

Try this site out.... They have many different types of LED lights....

Some that will go into a 1/2" hole or Mini Lite Bars that you can mount to the dash
that put out allot of light...

www.signaldynamics.com

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 09, 2004, 07:18:05 AM

Allen

You are right...... except if you put the Alternator charge wire on the battery side of
the switch....so when you cut the power.... the alternator cannot feed the ignition or
any electric....

If you notice there is a red 8 gauge wire attached to the cut off switch.... that is
where we run the alternator charge wire back to the battery....not to the starter
solenoid like most people do.l....

Most people run the alternator charge wire back to the starter solenoid .....and when
they cut off the main power switch...the alternator keeps feeding the solenoid which
is the same as the Battery feeding the ignition....

I hope I didn't get to confusing ....When we disconnet with the switch....we


disconnect the battery and the alternator.

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 09, 2004, 09:10:27 AM

Allan

This is the only Drawing we have used and KMP 259 appears to be wired and color
coded like this diagram

http://kms.nfshost.com/information/wiring/

We also removed the Voltage Regulator and just ran another larger #8 gauge wire to
the battery via the master disconnect switch.

Morris

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 09, 2004, 09:36:49 AM

Allan

Looking at the Drawing made me realize a couple of things

One we are not using a Ammeter..... so I don't need the connection at the Ammeter
to show a charge.....

We are using a Volt meter and all we monitor is that the Volt meter is showing 14.5
volts which indicates a charge from the Alternator.

The other is Removing the Voltage Regulator and using a 1 wire Alternater allows us
to use the master disconnect switch as the feed for the Alternator instead of the
Starter Solenoid.....

Which will allow us to shut the car down when we use the master disconnect switch
because that point is the same as the positive post on the battery.

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 05:47:42 PM

Now we're moving on to the Rear End.

I've always been nevous ....even with the Race cars ...... with allot of HP and a motor
that's spinning 7500 RPM.....sitting right next to me..... only a couple of inches
away..... of course in a Race car you don't have time to think about much except will
I make it around the next turn.....

Well as I inspected the Rear End in KMP 259 ....I saw some changes we wanted to
make ....like change the Pinion Yoke and U-Joint..... re-do the oil lines to -8 lines as
opposed to -6..... and other things we needed to check....

So here we go.....

When ever you go to remove the Pinion Nut that is holding the Rear End Yoke or
Companion Flange on the Pinion.... it's always torqued to 200-220 ft lbs of torque....
so before you just put a Impact on the nut and pull the trigger ...... remember the
Nut is made of harder material than the Pinion shaft......you would screw up the
threads and then you'd be looking for another pinion.....ugh..... another set-up
process....ugh....

So here is what you do.... take a 3" cut off wheel in a die grinder and cut some slots
in the nut behind the punched marks in the nut..... this will relieve some of the
pressure that is on the threads between the pinion shaft and the nut.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 05:52:08 PM

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Once you've done that you can now put the impact on the nut and remove the nut
with worry of destroying the pinion shaft....

Then you 'll have to use a puller to pull the old Pinion Yoke off of the Pinion shaft of
the Rear End.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:02:40 PM

You might notice the New Yoke on the Pinion all ready..... the difference in the two is
that the original Pinion Yoke or Companion Flange is much smaller ..... that's because
it's made for a 1310 series u-joint.....it's only a u-joint that is 3.25" across and is
made for the stock type cars that are only making around 400 HP and only turning
6000 RPM.....

We are going to a 1350 series Spicer U-joint and therefore needed a different Pinion
Yoke on the front of the Rear End.... the 1350 is about 3.625" across the u-joint and
is allot.....alllot..... stronger....plus it's forged out of steel and not Aluminum..... But
because it's so much bigger you have to make sure there's enough room in the car to
accommodate such a large U-Joint like the 1350.... this will then allow you to use a
1350 series U-joint on the Transmission and also on the Rear End.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:07:55 PM

The larger Pinion Yoke ... because it's not only larger but it sticks out about a 1"
father ....will make the Drive shaft somewhat shorter....

But you can't help but feel allot more comfortable with that new yoke with the larger
1350 spicer u-joint in there...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:12:28 PM

wwwreiderracing.com carries the kit you need for a new nut and washer and shims
and gaskets.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:14:37 PM

Here's the kit

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:19:34 PM

So now we gently wiggle the new Pinion Yoke on the Pinion shaft to get it
started....... then we take the old nut and washer and just rachet the Yoke down on
the Pinion shaft..... then we take the old nut and washer off........then install the new

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nut and washer......

Now you have to torque the Pinion Nut down to 200-220 ft lbs of torque..... we made
up brackets for the transmission jack and it made it easy to torque

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:23:23 PM

Having the Pinion Yoke Changed ....we move on to set up the -8 return lines directed
at the Pinion bearing......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:26:11 PM

Here's the vent location with a 90 degree fitting -6

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:33:46 PM

Now what you'll notice is that we added a Earl's Fuel filter with a Stainless Steel
mesh screen for the filter in the vent line.....

This will separate the vapor from the oil much like they do on Harley's...... it works
well and we'll then run the vent line up to a catch can in the trunk

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:36:30 PM

Better shot of the filter

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:39:44 PM

Here's a good shot of the Oil out of the Rear End.... we opened it up to a 3/8" NPT by
-8 line and will remove the oil quickly when the pump is turned on....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 06:44:27 PM

Now it's ready to go back in KMP 259.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 07:02:16 PM

Now we have the Forged Spicer 1350 Pinion Yoke....... Larger return -8 lines
.....Larger drain fitting.....3/8" -8 fitting and Fuel filter installed on the Vent line.....

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The reason we make up the short lines is because there's no room in the car..... so
now we just install the Rear End and hook up the lines with union fitting....

Think about that small original flange verses the big one.....

Hope this helps someone...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 13, 2004, 07:05:36 PM

Those are some kool bracket we made up for the Transmission Jack..... makes it a
one man job ......

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2004, 07:08:44 AM

Pat

I'm going to put the diff in today....

But just so you know..... KMP 259 has a Double Roll bar so there is no interference
.....

Well lubricate the rubber pads and just slide the diff up in the car....

The beauty of the transmission jack is it can be adjusted any way for any angle ....

So I'm going to jack it up in the car and then get on a ladder to see where I'm at and
do a little at a time until I get it in position...

Thank for thinking about the front piece... ....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 21, 2004, 03:51:02 PM

Gary

The Socket head Cap screws are a grade 8 USS Course thread..... remember we are
screwing into Aluminum.....

If you want to change them stay with the Grade 8 Socket Head Screws because you
don't have much room to work with in that part of the car....

Like if you are changeing the rear end and you will need to break these bolts loose to
get the Rear End back in the car..... then you'll need to put Lock-tite (Blue) on them
......one at a time...... and then tighten everything back up...... Install the Big 5/8"

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bolts first in the frame Tabs .....then do the Socket head bolts one at a time...

Pat was the first one to realize this and he's right on the mark unless you're going to
do this all of the time an then I'd open up the frame tab holes....

Makes the job much easier....

With our set up we had the rear end up into the car and mounted with in minutes....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 21, 2004, 03:58:54 PM

Gary

By the way .... Stainless Steel bolts are not as strong as the Grade 8 bolts.....

ARP is the only place I've seen them where they advertise them to be as strong as
the Grade 8 bolts...

Also if you use SS ....please put some loctite Blue on them or Neverseze..... SS will
Gald up very fast in any metal....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 21, 2004, 04:23:39 PM

Tight... :)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 21, 2004, 04:27:16 PM

That was with a 1/2"drive rachet extension and Allen drive socket.....

Screwing into Aluminum on the Harley's .....

1/4"=9-10 ft lbs...
5/16"=12-18 ft lbs
3/8"= 20-35 ft lbs ....

depending on the material I'm screwing into...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:34:11 AM

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Well we got the Diff installed and it's time to Plumb it with Aeroquip hose....

I was hesitant to do this because I'm sure everybody know how to do this.... but ....
there maybe one or two folks that don't know how to make their own hoses and
would like to know.... so if you know all of this info about Aeroquip .... please excuse
the explaination or better yet chip in and give us some of your experiences.....

We are using -8 Aeroquip hose to plumb the diff because it will move the gear oil
much better when it's time to move it.... when the temp gets to 200 degrees then
we'll flip the switch on to cool the gear oil .... 212 degrees is where we want it to run
at....to remove any moisture that may have accummulated in the oil....

So here's the tools we start with.... you might notice the wrenches are not little....
don't use a 6 inch .... 7/8" wrench on the bigger hoses.... and always use the box
end of the wrench to grip the nut..... of the Aeroquip fitting....

Here's the tools...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:42:44 AM

Incase you didn't know all Aeroquip fittings are made for a 37* degree angle and this
will allow a better seal than the normal 45*degree angle that is on most brass fittings
found in the Hardware store....

The Aeroquip fitting does 2 things.... it mechanically seals the fitting against the hose
and at the same time it is locking or tighting the Stainless steel braid outer jacket to
the hose end...which will make it a mechicanically sound joint ..... If you've ever
tried to tear one apart without taking it apart....it is practically impossible....

First you have 2 pieces to a hose end .... not sure what Aeroquip calls them.... but
lets just say the hose female nut and..... hose male fitting....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:49:25 AM

The first thing we do is get these trick jaws for the vice ...or use a rag in the vice.....
but a vice is nice ..... I've done it at the track without a vice and we struggled to get
it done...but now that I'm older and wiser.....a vice is nice.... '

Also the aluminum brackets in the vice is a good thing because it doesn't mark the
hose end .... if you spend $23 for a hose end ...you don't want to gouge it out while
assembling it ....

First we remove the tape from the hose and quickly insert it into the hose end and
turning it to the left and pushing to get it started....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:52:03 AM

You will have some loose wires try to not go into the hose end......use a small screw
driver to push those loose wires into the fitting when you are turning it to the left or
counter clockwise....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:57:00 AM

Once you have the hose started into the fitting and all of the loose wires are inserted
....now turn the hose to the right or clockwise to push it up to the bottom of the
threaded portion of the fitting.... meaning the hose comes right up to and touches
the bottom of the threaded portion of the hose end....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:59:31 AM

Notice all of the dirt in the hose.... that's from cutting the hose....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:07:09 AM

Next we want to squirt WD 40 or a lubricant all over the hose end and the hose
where the male part of the fittting is going to go into.... also squirt the threads of the
male fitting and the nut..... use a liberal amount to put it together.....

Then insert the male fitting into the female side and make sure the tube part of the
male fitting is going inside of the hose.....lotsa of WD40..... then start turning the
male fitting right to thread it into the female fitting..... screw it as many revoloutions
as you can by hand just to make sure you haven't cross-threaded the connection....
this is always done in my hands ...not in a vice..... just to make sure we didn't cross-
thread.....

Then once you have it started .... put it back in the vice ..... and clamp down very
tight...but don't deform the female fitting....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:09:32 AM

Start it by hand....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:14:09 AM

Foot note..... many times I'll turn the nut backwards untill I feel it drop into the
treads like it's suppose to and then I'll turn it to the right or clockwise....

Now we clamp it into the vice and make sure you clamp the female hose end low in
the vice so you will have a good hold on the nut part of the fitting....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:19:10 AM

You can see the size of the wrench we are using on this fitting.....-8 .....7/8" boxend
wrench.....lotsa leverage......

Start turning it down into the hose nut end.....

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But always put your hand down by the bottom of the hose end and the hose to feel if
it is turning or coming out as you are screwing the male fitting into the hose.... if so
...start over and hold it from turning....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:23:57 AM

Next the question of how much do you turn it down.... or how far do you screw the
male fitting into the female fitting...????

The rule of thumb is .030" to .060" of an inch.... between the female bottom nut and
the top male fitting.....

Most of the time you will feel it start to get tight and just keep tightening into you get
it to the above spec....

If you look close the space between the male and female and the nut on top of the
fitting will be about the same....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:27:15 AM

This photo shows the relationship between the Fitting and the nut on top..... the
space appears to be close....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:29:22 AM

Now we need to attach the hose end to the cooler we are plumbing and lay out the
line to the rear diff....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:33:19 AM

Always let the line lay out and where ever it naturally wants to lay is where we attach
it to a bracket or frame member

Now we mark where we want to put another hose end.....if you'll notice there are
small lines on the female hose end to show you where the hose will be inside the
hose end..... this helps you when you are laying out the hose to the cooler or
whatever you are plumbing...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:36:11 AM

Now you remove the hose and go back to the vice...... and clamp and tape the
hose...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:41:08 AM

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What we do is center the tape over the mark..... then wrap the hose tightly..... and
the idea is that when you cut the hose the SS wire won't come loose and spread out
like a basket ..... then you can't get the hose into the fitting .....

Also we mark the tape in the center and most of the time we cut on the outside of
the line.... longer is better than shorter....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:46:32 AM

There are many ways to cut the hose..... Hacksaw...... to much work.... Chop
saw.....don't have one..... or Cut-off wheel in the die grinder....seems to work the
best......and give you a clean cut... which is important because you will be pushing
the hose into the female hose end fitting up against the bottom of the threads.....

Sometime you may have a few Stainless Steel wires that are to long or didn't cut
right.... use a pair of Avaition tin snips ...the ones with the short nose ...stronger are
the best ........ and trim the hose before you take the tape off..... your on the clock
when you take the tape off...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:50:16 AM

Now you see the hose installed and attached to the frame for support..... the hose
always needs to be supported....and not by the hose ends....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:53:26 AM

And to do the next hose .... you can see how we've layed out the one we just made
.....and marked the new hose for cutting.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 08:58:04 AM

When it's all done .... you have something like this......

Since we are running the cooler up in the rear fender on the drivers side..... we have
to figure out how to get the oil out of the diff ....filtered ...pumped..... check
valve.....cooler.....and back into the diff .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 09:03:04 AM

By the way.... no hose goes on the car until it's cleaned very good and checked with
air pressure for leaks..... just a good policy.....

And I can't emphasize Clean enough.....Ask TC about Clean hoses and motors....

Here hoping this helps someone...

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Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: computerworks on November 28, 2004, 09:09:00 AM

Morris... great pictorial...thanks for the work.

What do you plug the other end with when you pressure-test?

I'll answer what I am sure will be asked...

The Vise Jaw inserts can be had from Summit for ~16 bucks

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=product.asp&
p=82&searchtype=ecat

(http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/aer-fcm3661.jpg)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Chaplin on November 28, 2004, 09:11:03 AM

Morris-
Thanks, that was a big help! Â I'm gutting to be putting together some lines and
fittings pretty soon and that was a terrific how-to. Â Couple of questions. Â When
threading the male fitting into the female fitting, how do you keep the box wrench
from marring the finish on the male fitting? Â Every time I've done it, it seems to
leave a mark. Â Second, when pressure checking the lines, what type of fitting do
you need to attach the air hose? Is there a standard cap that you use on the other
end of the line? And how much pressure do you put in it? Â

Thanks again.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 09:16:15 AM

Hi Ron

We just us a standard plug for the hose size we are working with..... in this case -8
plug.....

They have a test kit in Summit as well ... but we just take a plug like we are talking
about and drill and tap it for a air line fitting (1/4" NPT) and install that .... it's easy
to hook up to the compressor...just plug it in.... I think there's uses a push on hose
and we just don't like push on hoses....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 09:24:17 AM

Chaplin

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The best thing to use is masking tape...... in our case we are using Craftsman
Professional wrenches and they are much smoother and a boxend doesen't mark the
hose end as much.....

But the alternative is to use masking tape on the wrench....like a cresent wrench
...I'll put masking tape on the jaws and then put it on the nut or hose end....

Aeroquip has plugs and Caps in all of there sizes of hose..... and you would use them
when taking a line off ....just cap or plug it so it doesn't leak oil all over the place ....

The piece we put into the plug is our standard air compressor quick disconnect fitting
.... so all you have to do is hook up your quick disconnect air compressor line to the
hose end and spray it with Windex..... if bubbles appear....then you have some
checking to do....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: computerworks on November 28, 2004, 09:27:25 AM

Quote from: huskers_fan on November 28, 2004, 09:20:20 AM


...Quick hijack, any progress reports on your kmp over the holidays???

Yup...moving along nicely...waiting for some custom alum panels to be fab'd...scored


lotsa orig parts this month.

I have been making a similar tutorial like Morris'.. but mine is sillier..."Creating an
original tail-light"

I can take some pics and contrast how we did the diff cooler.. 1965-style  :o

...back to KMP259 stuff...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 09:31:34 AM

Chaplin

When we hook up to the Air compressor.... it's set to 125# of air pressure..... if the
air can get out of the hose .... you know the oil can....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 06:12:13 PM

Scott

I must admit ....like you said....it's nice not having to be on a Tiime schedule...... like
before...... and because of that we have the time to do the little stuff and help
others....

Like a Rear Diff Oil Dip Stick..... made one today.... '

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The build is the part I enjoy the most..... but the driving has to be a kick in the
pants...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:31:43 PM

Pat and Scott

This one is for you guy's.....

Here's a Harley Road King or Ultra Classic oil Dip stick.....used to check the oil on the
bikes......

Well we took out the heat gun and did a little bending to fit into the Rear diff.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:36:55 PM

We needed something that was repeatable..... so when we pump oil up into our
cooler and lines we know how much oil to fill up the diff with.....

We put a notch on the stick to know where it is now with 3 pints in it....

This shows the bend in the stick

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:39:01 PM

Here the stick is sitting on the floor of the Diff...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:41:19 PM

And when you pull it out..... you can tell exactly where it's at....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 28, 2004, 07:45:21 PM

The mark we just filed into the stick at the right level.....

Wonder if Harley minds if we use their dip stick to chec our Diffs....

Obviously we had to much time to goof off today....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Pat on November 30, 2004, 04:44:43 PM

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Morris -

Do you still need pictures of the dry sump cut out in the left front fenderwell?

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: KMP323 on November 30, 2004, 05:51:25 PM

Pat,
I sure could use the part# of the dry sump oil tank cap.
Thanks in advance Tom

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 01, 2004, 08:17:41 AM

Hi Pat

Yes I do need some photo's of the cut out for the Dry Sump pump....

I think I have a vision of it in my head ...but a photo would be great...

Thanks
Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 05:54:36 PM

Since we are going to be going to Road America with KMP 259.... we needed to do
some work on the Fuel Tank..... all of this work will be done and then after we know
everything is working OK ...then we'll send it out to Fuel Safe and have them install a
Bladder.....

The Carousel at Road America is one of the all time best carousel's in the country.....
you are in the corner for anywhere from 4-8 seconds and it will separate the men
from the boys.......

But more importantly .... you car has to perform flawlessly or you could be a lot of
trouble....as you are in 4th gear with your foot half way to the floor and then when
you see the Kink ... you will squeeze the Throttle ever so gently and pull the right
front tire over the FIA strips...... many times we would carry the right front tire so
high with G forces that it would never touch the FIA strip and we were 2 feet inside
and over the top of the FIA strip....

Anyway this will pull all of your fuel away from your pick up and also create problems
with the Venting of the Fuel tank..... so we have to make some changes....

First we have to pull the Fuel Tank..... Get a 2' X 4' piece of Oak Laminated Plywood
(strong) have them cut 1' foot off the long end.... this will give you a 2' x 3' piece
which is perfect size for the fuel tank....and the 1' x 2' extra piece will be the shim to
lift the tank and remove the tank straps...

Be sure to counter sink the bolts so it's flat and also put a 1 1/2" piece of angle
Aluminum to prevent it from sliding off.... when you are R&R the tank.

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:03:41 PM

Put your extra piece of 3/4" Oak Plywood in the center up against the Angle bracket
and start jacking and position it up against the tank..... remove the rear nuts on the
tank straps and then loosen the front bolts and gently let down a couple of inches....

You should of removed all of the other item that were connected to the tank...such as
inlet hose ...fuel hose .... vent hose

The tank straps be it Billet or steel ...will be under a load and will want to come down
rather quick.... just unscrew the nuts until you get to the last few threads and then
push up with you hand and unscrew the rest of the way...and let down on the
board....

Then remove the 2 front 5/16" bolts on the Tank straps and slide out the strap with
the shim holding the weight of the tank....

Then let it down a bit more and remove the shim so the tank is flat on the board and
stable .... now let it down...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:10:45 PM

What you'll notice is that the Aluminum Trunk floor has a interference fit with the
Fuel tank....and the tank is made of Stainless steel and the floor of the trunk is
Aluminum ....and the Aluminum is taking a beating on the bottom side..... I'm sure it
is some of the rattleing people hear when they turn there fuel pumps on or just put
something in the trunk..... the fuel tank had no marks ...the trunk floor was very
bad....

So one of the fixes is to install some 1/16" rubber to the top of the SS tank.... now
the trunk floor can't touch the tank and beat it's self up or make any noise...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:13:24 PM

After we removed the Tank we removed the Fuel filler cap and drilled and tapped
another 1/4npt hole for another vent hose...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:19:26 PM

Then we made up two more Stainless Steel bungs and welded them into the tank....
so we had a vent on each side of the Fuel tank so it didn't matter what turn you are
in venting would not be a problem.....

Also venting when you are filling the tank isn't a problem....

Because we are running the Oil cooler lines next to the tank ....we decided to get

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some of the Thermo tec that Turk was using and insulate the Fuel tand from the hot
oil lines.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:22:26 PM

While we had the fuel cap out we decided that we needed a gasket between the filler
and the body of the car.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:25:57 PM

We also marked the two fuel lines coming out of the tank......

Mechanical is on the left and Electric is on the right.....

You can see the Electric fuel pump line is about 1/2" lower than the mechanical
pickup...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:32:40 PM

Now the tank is ready to go back in the car.....

We now have 1- Fuel return line and 2- Vent lines and rubber to prevent the floor
from banging on the fuel tank and Insulation to prevent fuel from heating up.... and
2 each fuel pick ups ....mech and elect.... and also set up the cap to run the vent
lines up to the fuel cap...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:41:35 PM

Before we put the tank back in ..... we needed to open up the vent holes in the
cap....

You have 2 vent holes in the cap and they are 180*degrees apart from each other on
different sides of the rubber sealer in the cap so you don't spill any fuel out of the
cap.....

Well sense we are running both of the vents lines into the hose connection part of the
cap .....we need to open up the holes....

Stock the vent holes are about .100"......we opened them up to .150"..... on both
sides ..... more air....more fuel.....

BTW this is a old Showroom stock trick from the endurance series we ran years
ago...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:43:36 PM

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Other side of the seal in the cap...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:46:21 PM

The oil lines are now tucked in nice and neat between the Tank and the side wall of
the trunk

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:50:45 PM

Here we have the vent line on the right (red).... return line in the middle....and the
Vent for the rear end is the bulkhead going up into the trunk and the shock lines
going to the resevoir in the trunk......this is the Drivers side of the car....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:53:53 PM

The bulkhead fitting coming up thru the floor comes up to the catch can for the rear
diff....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 06:58:40 PM

Here we have the top line (black) is the return line for the fuel.... then the vent line
going over to the fuel cap....

Then the Vent line for the Rear Diff ...... then the Oil Return for the Rear Diff..... all
on the left....

On the right we have the Electric Fuel pump line and the Mech pump line and vent on
top...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 07:01:26 PM

This is the Passenger side of the tank where the other vent line is now added

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 07:03:27 PM

Both Vent lines tuck up nice between the tank and the trunk side panel

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 07:05:50 PM

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Here's the 2 vent lines attached to the bottom of the fill hose housing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 07:10:27 PM

Scott

I'd change the pick-ups to both -8 .....

And I'm glad to here you did that with the bulkhead fitting.... makes life allot
easier....

and the -6 return is perfect...

Morris

BTW ..... any upgrade we do to the cars is what makes it unique to you ....just like
Harley's...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 05, 2004, 07:27:14 PM

Scott

The Aeroquip lines are just a thing you start doing and then you get the hang of it
and off you go.....

I've put allot of them together and they were not perfect and never had a problem
with them....

We are working with the Folks at Kirkham to enhance the cars..... and update things
....they are very open to ideas on the suspension and other things ...so I'm sure we'll
help them out as they have needs .... and see the the market changeing....

Mainly we just want to help the guy's here on Gasholes ..... good group and like
sharing idea's with them....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Rottie on December 06, 2004, 10:01:04 PM

Morris,

Where did you find the stainless bung? Should the vents be an AN-4 or an AN-6?Â
I relize the the hole in the filler neck is 1/4 NPT, does that limit the size to an
AN-6? Thank You for your post, I find the information very valuable.

peter

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 07, 2004, 08:25:16 AM

Rottie

The Stainless Steel bungs were made up by us......we had some material and turned
them out on a lathe.........you should use SS bungs to weld into SS tank.....

We tapped the SS bungs to 1/4"NPT and yes we used -6 hose from the vent hole on
the tank to the fill Cap where we installed another 1/4"npt -6 fitting in the bottom of
the cap housing

I would caution anyone working with SS bungs and SS fittings..... when you are
tighting the fitting.....it goes so far and then stops quickly..... if the fitting is pointed
in the wrong direction....you have to re-tap the bung....by taking a tap and packing it
with grease and turn it into the bung and only make new threads the 1/2 turn or
so.... you need to get the fitting pointed in the direction you need.....

Stainless Steel fittings and Stainless Steel bungs will gald up if you don't have
anything on the threads..... we used never-seze to figure out where the fitting was
going to point and then once we knew we had that...then we went to Teflon liquid
sealant on the threads.

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: weekendwarrior on December 07, 2004, 08:38:55 AM

Morris,

Does your return line bung drop fuel straight into the tank or does the 90 degree
fitting have a tube welded on that extends into the tank to distribute fuel down the
tank side. Did I say that correctly?

Gary

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 07, 2004, 09:17:46 AM

Gary

The return line fitting and bung just drop fuel in the tank.....

All we want to do is keep the fuel moving so it doesn't have a chance to boil and
cause vapor lock...

Just dropping it into the tank is fine

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Rottie on December 07, 2004, 10:56:49 AM

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Mooris,

Besides cost, would it be best to use a swivel fitting so don't have a fittinf gal or bind
up?

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 07, 2004, 06:59:20 PM

Rottie

I don't think I want a swival fitting back in the Harsh environment where the corner
of the tank is and the rear tire.....

The reason we used the Stainless steel fittings (expensive) is strength and corrosion
prevention....

Also with the hoses so close to the shock.... we didn't want to give the hoses a
chance to move around...... the hoses need to stay where they are installed and not
interfer with any suspension movement.

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:00:12 PM

We got the back of the car almost where we wanted it ...so we moved to the front of
the car and for some reason I just don't like the looks of the top of the footboxes.....
White fiberglass doesn't do anything for me .... and it is not going to stop the heat
very well....

So we set out to change the tops of the footboxes.... because we just don't like them

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:01:55 PM

We didn't like the Drivers side either

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:03:59 PM

We made a template of the top of the Passenger side footbox not know just what we
were going to do...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:08:10 PM

Making a template is easy .... you just get all of the things that are bolted down out
of your way and get some Poster board from Office Max and start cutting and
drawing to to get it to size.....

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Putting bolt holes in a template is done with the hole punches that we use for
gaskets or leather or many things...

Exacto knifes work real well.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:15:53 PM

We then went out and bought some DEI material..... Thermo-Tek..... and then cut
them out and looked at them .....

And didn't like the way they looked..... also in the engine compartment .... any
material you use will have to be able to handle ....Oil, Coolant, Water, Dirt, Grease,
and anything else that can get there.....

Aluminum will oxidize rather quickly..... fiberglase will absorb water then it's not very
effective....

We wanted something that would be durable and with stand the rigors of this
enviroment and still look good..... and you don't have to change it every other year..

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:22:26 PM

So we decided to do things the way we use to do the Race cars.....cause they were
always getting dirty ...full of tire rubber and grease and oil and coolant and what
ever else that came off of a race track.....

And like most we would take them to the Car Wash and wash them down before we
would start going thru them for the next weekend....

The way we protected our selves from heat was with SS....Stainless steel...

So we went out and got some Diamond plate SS and some Sheet of Hi-Temp Silicone

The SS is .024" thick and the Hi-Temp Silicone had the adhesive already attached to
the silicone sheet...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:27:07 PM

It's nice having the templates because you can just draw around the template on the
silicone and cut with a razor knife..... and punch the holes out with hole punches .....

The Silicone already has the adhesive on the back side and I like that even though
it's a very difficult way to install the silicone

This silicone we got at McMaster Carr and it's 1/16" thick.... we are using both
1/16th and 1/8" in different places...

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:33:44 PM

Installing the Adhesive backed Hi-Temp Silicone is a pain .... but is worth it.....

You stick it down and pull it up about 5-6 times until you get it exactly where you
want it to be.....

It must have great glue on it cause we did it until I got the lines lined up and the bar
or strut going right over the top of the foot box..... and ours is bigger than the other
KMP's .... is a pain in the but trying to pull the backing paper off of the silicone and
keep it straight at the same time ....

Eventully we just pull the backing paper off and let it stick crooked and then pulled it
up and worked with it untill we got it where we want it.....

PIA..... but it needs to be right....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:39:40 PM

By the way.... One thing I forgot to tell you...... buying the Thermo-Tek or DEI
insulation cost half as much as when you go with the real stuff.... like SS and
Hi-temp Silicone...

The Drivers side was no different.... you just work with the silicone untill you got it
where you need it.....

I thought of buying the Hi-Temp Silicone with out the adhesive on the back ..... and
maybe next time I'll do that.... I'm sure if you just put some clear silicone down on
the footbox and stuck the Hi-Temp silicone to it ...it would work fine..... and infact
probably be much easier to position the silicone in the tight space we have .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:46:16 PM

The Stainless Steel we use is the Diamond design ..... the idea is that the diamonds
creat little pockets of air and don't transfer heat as well..... the Silicone then
prevents the heat from going any further....

But here's what the difference is in the real SS sheet and the DEI ..... seems like the
DEI material is trying to Imitate the real SS....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:51:22 PM

There is no doubt when you are working with the Stainless Steel .....it is Stong....and
very difficult to drill and machine....

When ever we are working with SS we will drill a hole as slow as 120 rpms.... which
is very slow and use lots of lubricant.....

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All we use is Cobalt drills and the hole saw we had to go very slow and then work
every edge over with a file and die grinder after we got done making the plate....

But it's hard to beat the real thing when it's polished..... we sent them out and had
them polished.....

Once SS is polished ....it will stay that way and is easy to take care of for the life of
the car...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 04:57:30 PM

You can get the rubber edging at Aircraft Spruce and use some Elephant
Snought.....(3M Weather Adhesive) to glue it in place....

That way you won't cut you hands on the real sharp edges of the stainless that is
already in the car.....

The SS plates are just bolted down in the places we have a bolt.... and at the end
where there's no bolt.... we just used some clear Silicone to stick the plate to the
Hi-Temp Silicone...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 05:01:30 PM

This is also a good time to Silicone the SS plate and the firewall and the strut coming
thru the fire wall....

Put a work light in the inside of the car in the footbox and go in the engine
compartment and see if you can see any light..... if so .... start caulking with Clear
Silicone.... it's much cleaner and not easy to see...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 05:05:03 PM

By the Way this doesn't eliminate the need to use some Dynmart or another insulator
inside the foot box and then put your carpet on top of the insulation....

This is the Driver side.....

This makes for a much better product and finish that will stay that way for a long
time..... plus it works....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 05:10:02 PM

Not sure what we're going to do to the firewalll.... maybe just do some fiberglass
inside the aluminum firewall....

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The over all is not to much polish and yet it's functional.....

I know some of you don't like shining things...... well I do....and it's allot easier to
clean ....plus you don't have to every be concerned with Oxidation.... and Aluminum
will so this is just one less item we will have to maintain....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: TC on December 12, 2004, 07:03:01 PM

Morris, nothing like building a car that goes right to the "line" or is the line ;D.
 Thought you might enjoy this story.

My last Cobra (an SPF) was built by Bill Parham of Southern Automotive fame. Â As
all of us car guys can relate to, any good engine builder trys to discern if the motor
will be street use, track use, especially when someone is asking for a gazillion HP.
 Somewhere, the engine builder draws a line between street and track.  Bill built a
motor for an SPF he would be using for himself  for a few years as a demo car, and
when I was looking at it, he said, "Michael, there is a line between a street motor and
a race motor, Â the motor in this car IS that line! Â ;D ;D" Â We became friends right
there and then.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 07:54:42 PM

TC

Great story....

And you're right..... the line is Titanium Valves ...... Solid Lifters...... 7500 RPM....
and 700 HP.....

Wait till I get to that part of the build....... That line and I will become very
intimate......

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 07:59:04 PM

Foosh

That was the idea...... actually .... I knew I was going to go over everthing
anyway..... never ...ever trust anyone..... when it comes to race cars or tracks......
It's your butt in the seat..... not theirs....

But I think some of the purpose of the car has changed and we want to get as much
as we can out of a original Cobra type car....

Morris

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 08:05:12 PM

Hey Scott

This is a on going chapter of KMP 259...... and hopefully it will get where it needs to
be.....

BTW we have some great chapters coming up.......

Dry Sump Tank.... disassembly and re assembly..... Oil coolers..... Sway bars front
and rear..... Nasty Nasty Motor..... TKO 600 install .....

Lot's of stuff to keep us busy....

Morris

BTW how's your car coming along.... seems like you're doing well....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 12, 2004, 08:29:23 PM

Gary

Tom and I Â have been working together on many idea's on the TKO 600 mount....

He has one that we are going to try ...... it will mount off of the back of the 4"cross
tube.... also we are working on a Mid plate and front plate for the motor....

And yes we are going to put the TKO 600 Short input shaft tranny in at first to see
how it does..... not sure....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:07:12 PM

We left off with the footbox getting finished and it turned out much nicer than I
planned on.... the next piece of KMP 259 is to get the Dry Sump Tank assembled and
installed....

Pat Buckley had a major help and influence in decideing to Dry Sump the car.... and
his guidence and working with Tom Kirkham helped me get this part of the project
done.... So Thanks Pat and Tom....

Here's where we left off... We've installed some of the Hi-Temp Silicone and Thermo
Tek to help insulate the Tank from the footbox as well as protect the tank....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:14:29 PM

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By the Way Pat has some great photo's he shared with me on how he cut up the
footbox so you wouldn't have to change the way the headers ran out the body of the
car.... That's why moving or taking out 2" out of the foot box is so important and yet
don't let it get to hot in the car .... this also brings up the point of using smaller
Batteries behind the seat so you can get the 2" back by sliding the seat back another
few inches....

So we insulated and made sure the work that Tom K and the boys did was all right
and it was.... we just add to to it as any one would

You might notice the heat shield is positioned right at the back of the Loovers in the
side of the fender

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:16:16 PM

We sent the tank out and had it Powder Coated with the Black Chrome..... and then
cleared....

Now we have to put the tank together ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:18:03 PM

If you look you can see the top baffle and middle baffle and drain plug....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:21:21 PM

Look in the hole and at the 2-3 oclock position and you'll see a tube..... that's the
tube returning the oil from the oil pump an oil pan....

It flow onto the side and back of the Dry Sump tank to attempt to get any air
bubbles out of the oil....

The baffle does the same thing.... ... the oil level will be right below the middle
baffle....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:24:38 PM

Here's the Pick-up tube and it sits right on the floor of the Tank..... the way it is
made is very good and will provide the dry sump pump with a good supply and no
possibility of air getting into the oil....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:26:57 PM

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Look at how they made the pick up tube with a nice flair so it will have good flow to
the pump.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:30:30 PM

Here's all of the pieces we have to assemble.....

I believe TC commented about blowing a motor a couple of weeks ago and one of the
things about a dry sump tank is you can take it apart and clean it as good as new....
I think in his case the oil coolers might have still had some trash in them and hurt his
good motor....

The important part here is that you get it sealed up and have no leaks.....

Everybody has their own way to do this....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:35:09 PM

Here's a good shot of the Gas Cap ....O-ring..... and Gas hose with the insert in the
hose....

We got some oil and fuel resistant hose at NAPA that was 2 1/4" ID..... and we have
to reduce it down to 2" for the Gas Cap....

So we cut some silicone that was 1/8" and used our Elephant Snot (Thanks Ron)...
3M weather adhesive and inserted into the larger hose and it worked out great...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:38:00 PM

Here's the Nut sert ring that will hold everything together....

Notice the little counter sunk allen head screws..... they hold the ring to the tank .....
then the pick-up tube plate will bolt to the nut sert ring.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:40:37 PM

The plates are the standard fuel cell plates.....4X6 12 bolt ovals......

Also you'll notice the small plastic washers..... these prevent oil from coming out of
the bolt holes....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:44:34 PM

Now we have assembled the top using the all of the parts ....nut ring.... gasket

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....plate ..... plastic washers... bolts.... Safety wire....

One note is that the bolts get torqued to 90 inch pounds.... not much....

And like on my Harleys..... I used RTV Ultra Blue on both sides of the gasket.... we
know that seals and is good in oil.... and helps with the bolts....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:47:46 PM

Also we did the same procedure to the pick up plate .....

Another note is that when you are torqueing the bolts down .... some of the gasket
will squeez out from between the plate and tank.... when it's all done .... we just
take a exacto knife and trim the excess material away so you have a clean look and
seal...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:50:51 PM

Now the tank and Cap are ready to install in the car.....

One thing when ever we use RTV.... Ultra Blue or Clear or any one of the Silicones ....
we like to leave them sit over night and seal up nice and good before we do anything
with them....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:53:33 PM

This show how the gas cap fits into the hose when it's mounted on the tank..... it's
always good to check things out before you assemble...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 03:56:57 PM

The hose fits right on top of the tank thru the fender ....

Pat or someone not sure who came up with the idea of using a O-ring around the
bottom of the cap to seal it against the fender since the fender is not flat and have a
curve to it.... works nicely....Thanks for the idea....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 04:04:06 PM

This is a Rock Shield..... we had some spare SS plate laying around and decided we
could put it to good use....

The Dry Sump tank is only made of .060" Aluminum ...and since it's that thin and the
Tank is sitting right behind the right front tire.... you need to protect it as good as

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you can.... the front SS shield does a good job ... but many small rocks will come up
off of the tires and we don't want to give one a chance to puncture the Tank.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 04:06:05 PM

Installed the Gas cap hose with T-bolt clamps.... just better....and will clamp evenly
around the cap and tank.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 04:07:42 PM

Nice clean fit with room for the headers.... and the passenger...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 04:09:17 PM

Hopefully things will stay this way.... that's why you build them with quality....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 04:11:27 PM

Did you notice .... the serial number is gone....... up on the dash...... regulator is
gone...... one wire alternater......

Makes for a nice clean footbox and Dry Sump tank.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 18, 2004, 06:30:42 PM

Thanks Guy's .... You're never sure what the response is going to be .... and it's what
drives you do better then the last one.....

We were lucky as well to have folks like Pat to help us when we first started ....and
that was very much appreciated....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 19, 2004, 06:42:24 PM

Tom

We thought about a Oil heater but decided not to go that way..... It's just a street
car...... :)

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The breather ports on the tank will be used by the valve covers and then a catch can
on the firewalll .... but not the gas can....we'll control how much air we let in....

We are hoping we can suck some what of a vacuum in the motor..... no oil
leaks....especially on the traditional rear main....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 05:36:49 PM

We're waiting for the Powder coater to get done with the Roll bar....so we deciced it's
time to get into the suspension....

We want to put some sort of alignment on the car and see where everything is at.....
this is important because it can make or break the way a car handles and you will
find out info in the begininng that you may want to change because something is just
not right....

Many folks have their own way to do this so do understand that there are many ways
to get to the same point....

Infact this is how we start ..then we will make some other tools so when the car is
done we will align the car another way ....

So some of the basic tools you'll need is.....straight edge....1.5" angle aluminum....
and 3" PVC to tighten the down on the rotor hat to keep the rotor flat with the hub
which is the wheel...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 05:45:23 PM

You have to have the wheel at ride height..... so that means remove the shock and
make a tube or in our case we just use Threaded Rod 5/8".... and pin a nut to the
end of the shaft....then we use some old spring compressor hooks that are threaded
for 5/8" and they will hook on the shock bolts that we put back in.....

Then we'll do some measuring.... like if you have a 26" tire diameter and you know
that you want 4" of ride height.....

You start at the center of the wheel or hub..... so 26"/2 equals 13" is center of hub
height....

Less 4" of ride height equals 9" between the bottom of the frame and the center of
the wheel....

So we just use a piece of square tubing coming off the bottom of the frame and
measure up to the center of the hub and then turn the threaded rod to get the wheel
and suspension to come up to ride height......(4"ride Ht.... 9" to center of hub equals
center of a 26" wheel....

Hope I didn't loose anyone....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 05:47:13 PM

And of course you need a good Camber gauge....

And one that can read tenths ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 05:48:40 PM

And of course the old Bolt and string.....to check the chassis

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 05:53:03 PM

We start by tieing a string to the chassis suspensions mounting points......

This is the Left front lower control arm mounting point.....

And you can notice we tied the string right on the bronze bushing of the control
arm.... and did the same on the right side of the car

The other point is that the string just lays right on the 4" frame rail....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 05:55:10 PM

We do the same on the Left and Right rear suspension points.....

We're just making a box that we can measure

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:09:44 PM

We're making the box so we can see if the chassis is straight or not.....

The point is that if the chassis is straight then we can do other measurement off of
the 4" frame rails....

If the chassis is not straight ...then we will have to do all measurements off of Center
line of the chassis....

So now we measure each side of the box...... and they should be the same....

Then we measure diagonal from corner to corner.....this is the measurement that will
tell us if the chassis is straight or not..... and of course they should be the same

In our case the measurements were the same so our chassis is straight..... do this
with another person or grow some longer arms.... this is important to know.....

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Now we can measure between the front two strings and mark our center line on the
cross tube on the chassis..... we like to mark center line in the front and middle and
rear of the chassis..... never know when you'll need this reference point

This will allow us to measure to the outside of the big 4" frame rails and know that
deminsion all of the time.....

It happens to be 12" from the center of the chassis to the outside of the 4" frame
rails..... now all you have to do is measure to the frame rails .....not to the center of
the chassis.... when you are measureing toe or other measurements

If you have a Kirkham or CSX and have the ladder type of chassis it make it easy to
make measurments based on the center line of the chassis....

If you had a frame like so many street cars of today.... nothing is straight..... so you
have to use a Hunter alignment machine..... but with the Cobra and the ladder type
of frame..... strings and straight edges will work fine...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:15:10 PM

I know the bolts look funny hanging down from the chassis.... but it's the string that
counts ....

Now we can install the threaded rod and make the adjustments to bring the
suspension up to ride height.....

You'll also notice that we always stick a piece of masking tape on the upper control
arm to write down what ever we are adjusting....

This threaded rod idea works great because if we have a problem anywhere along
the suspension travel... we just adjust to that point and look very close at the
suspension....

Now we have the suspension at the proper height for the 26" wheel....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:21:54 PM

BTW at the bottom of that photo you'll notice a nut on the threaded rod..... once we
have the ride height established ...we lock the nut and the threaded rod nut together
and it's stable and you can move it from side to side..... or just make two threaded
rods the right length....

On our car the rotor and hat slip over the drive pins and hub..... that's because we
are using the big GN brakes....... rather than the hat being bolted to the hub .....

Anyway... because we have a slip on rotor ...we need to clamp it to the hub and this
is done with 3" PVC pipe..... easy and just spin the spinner down on it and it squares
everything up.... this makes the rotor our wheel.... 13" btw....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:25:43 PM

Those of us with the Billet upright have a bit of advantage.....

Just take the caliper off and get the wheel going straight and you can measure
castor right off of the billet machine surface....

Much easier that going thru the 20*degrees to the right and then 20*degrees to the
left and then read....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:33:01 PM

Here's where we made the adjustment..... we moved the rear heim in one turn.....
and the front heim out one turn....

This move the castor from 4.5 degrees to 5.2 degrees..... or .7* castor with one turn
on both heims..... one in and one out.....

5.2 degrees castor is a bit much for a steet car..... it will be hard to turn ...infact
power steering is not a bad idea....depending on the size of tires....

One of the advantages of running 5 plus degrees of castor is that the steering wheel
will return when you are sliding thru a corner ....not that you want that ...but at
speed you'll never notice the high arm strength it takes to turn the wheel ......

We've always run 5 plus degrees of Castor.... and it works for us... 2-4 for the street
is fine....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:35:31 PM

That adjustment worked out great and 5.2* degrees will work

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:38:14 PM

Now we are going to move to Camber......

Here we measured the camber and it was .8 degrees positive..... ???

That's the wrong way.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:42:18 PM

Now we move both Heim into the control arm...... as much as we could ..which was 3
full turns.....

Knowing this is not enough...... that was all that we could turn the heims....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:48:14 PM

Here's the problem.....

I screwed the heims into the control arms all of the way and we could only get
-.6*degrees of negative camber..... we want to be able to go to -3*degrees of
Negative Camber..... Radial tires will love -3 degrees of camber.....

So now this is the reason you have to do these set ups and checks .... because we'll
have to take the control arms off and have them machine about 3/8" of the end of
them so we can pull that upper control arm in to get the negative camber we will
need ....

BTW we will be using 275 X 35 X 18 tires on the front with BBS wheels....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 06:55:44 PM

David . .... no the we've run as much as 7*degrees of castor before and it had no
affect on turn in....

Now understanding that we'll have to modify the upper control arms..... we'll move
on to the toe....

Just lay a straight edge across the rotor ..... and measure to the frame rail......
remember we did all of the measureing in the begining so we know the frame rails
are straight and are a good reference point....

So just measure the front of the rotor on the straight edge and the rear.... and set
you Toe-in for the steet..... a 1/16th on each wheel is fine for the front.....

If you are going to spend some time on the track ....then Toe-out would reduce the
Ackerman effect and help the Turn in of the car..... also the way you set your Bump
steer will help with the rotation of the car going into a corner....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 07:03:05 PM

The Toe we set was 1/16" difference between the front and the back of the straight
edge about where the rotor is and the frame is easy to get to ..... That will give us
1/8" total for the street

Once we get all of the bugs worked out of the suspension and we have it set where
we want.....

Then we'll make a bar that will comes off of the front jack plates and the rear jack
plates that we can just mount to the jack plates and they will stick out past the side
of the car....

Then all you have to do is run a string from one bar to another and then you know

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that the string is parallel to the center line of the car and now you can just measure
to the wheels to know where your Toe is set and change it anywhere you are..... in
the garage or at the track or anywhere.

Alignment is not a magic science....it is just making sure you know where center line
of the chassis is and working from that point

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 07:06:48 PM

Once we've got this suspension the way we want it.....

Then we'll use our Transmission Jack with the board on it ...that we used to remove
the Gas tank...... as the ground and we'll come up under a wheel and make all of the
measurements so we can input this data into a computer program so we can
evaluate all of the suspension points before we ever turn a wheel on the street...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 25, 2004, 07:10:06 PM

We don't know how many photo's we've taken ..... but I'm glad my wife just got a
new Camera.....

The camera is out in the garage with me and when I start a project I just start taking
photo's..... it' seems to work...and helps....

The technology is great....I'm not very good at Tech...but I sure like it and it helps
others

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 28, 2004, 06:45:32 PM

When we ended last time ...it was established we had to take some measurments to
input into the computer....

So we are starting the process.....

The points we have to input are measurements from Centerline to the ball joints and
suspension mounting points on the frame.....in addition we have to measure from
ground .....with the car at ride height to the ball joints and suspension mounting
points ....and then the difficult one is to measure the location of the suspension and
ball joints to the center of the Wheels or uprights.....

The idea is to give the computer the measurements so it can calculate a triangle and
go from there..... all measurements have to be as accurate as you can be..... like any
computer ....junk in = junk out... and we want to avoid any of that....so we have to

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make precise measurements....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 28, 2004, 06:48:47 PM

The first thing we do is establish a ground plane.....the board mounted on the


Transmission Jack will work great....Remember I got laminated Oak so it stays
straight and can handle any weight within reason....

So now our board is Ground and we don't have to roll around on the ground to make
measurments....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 28, 2004, 06:50:53 PM

Then we go to the other side of the car and hang a string coming off of the hub so
we can find a Center line between the front wheels...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 28, 2004, 06:54:11 PM

And like before we install our Threaded rods to bring the suspension up to ride
height.....

So now we have the frame 4" off of the ground.(Board) and the suspension
compressed like it would be at ride height sitting on the ground .....

But fortunatly its on a lift and easy to get to the suspension mounting points for
measurements...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 28, 2004, 06:58:52 PM

So here we have put a piece of tape down on the board and marded the drivers side
with a line ....

Now we have to project that line over to the center of the Passenger side wheel.....

Well we just dropped a plum bob down lined it up on the mark and then used a laser
to shoot a beam across the car

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 28, 2004, 07:04:55 PM

This is a cool photo because you can see the laser dot across the car hitting the
string hanging down from the passenger side hub......

The idea is our board doesn't go all the way across the car so it's hard to know where

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the the center line of the wheels would be unless you dropped a line and then shoot
a laser across the car and then keep the line we drew on the board aligned with the
laser and line hanging on the opposite side....

This will give us the ability to measure the suspension location in front of and behind
the Center line of the wheels....

I just got lucky when I took the photo

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 28, 2004, 07:14:04 PM

And like we were talking about you can see the plum bob on both sides of the hubs
and a line and laser going across the car.....

This goes back to the thought of making all of your measurments as accurate as you
can and leave nothing to guess work....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 29, 2004, 04:51:18 AM

Pat

Sorry for the break..... our Satelite went down and left us with out communications
last night..... right in the middle of this issue....

We just use a tape measure between the board and the frame .....set at 4".....

I maintain that measurement all of the time incase the transmission jack decides to
leak down or something like that.....

Now we know the Centerline of the front wheels and it is a Reference point to
measure from....

Now we start taking all of our measurments ..... to the Upper front control
arm....upper rear control arm.....lower front control arm....lower rear control arm.....
Upper ball joint....Lower ball joint....spring mount upper ..... spring mount lower....
steering rack tie rod ..... and spindle steering tie rod end.....

All of those point need to have a measurement from Center line of the chassis.......
Height from the ground..... and where they are in relationship to the Centerline of
the front wheels......

Each measurmenet needs to be as accurate as you can..... that's why doing it the
way we are doing it is great ..because you can easily get to all of the suspension
mounting points......

If the car was on the ground ...... ugh..... it would be very difficult at best.....to get
to the points.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 29, 2004, 04:59:09 AM

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Pat

Yes the board is level with the car..... and the tape measure is between the board
and the frame and we watch is incase something moves....

Although I will say once we got everything set up.... it's very stable and short of me
kicking it or something stupid like that it won't move ..... I think because the
transmission jack is a very good one and one that is very heavy..... good base....

I'm really eager to get the data input into the computer because then we can reallly
understand what the suspension is doing and can easily make changes to things we
can and see how it affects the suspension or car....

Of course the computer only gives you the data back..... you have to decide what is
good or what changes you would want to make...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 29, 2004, 05:08:48 AM

The Data will confirm some of the manual formula's we have already worked out
....such as Wheel Rate..... Roll bar rate..... Bump steer....Camber gains.... Roll Center
Height.... and a multitude of others calculations you need to know to make changes
to a suspension.....

And one of the most important issues is where to compromise..... because not
everything will come out exactly the way you want it....

I'm sure we need to change the front Roll Bar ....because the one that is on the car is
just to weak and doesn't control the roll.... but the computer will confirm that and
we'll go from there.....

Another issue is that the computer will only give you theory..... you have to go back
to the car and actually take measurments and do all of the things to the car you do
to the computer.....then and only then will you know you have made an improvement
to the chassis....
especially when you get it out and drive it.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:03:15 PM

This is my Christmas Present to all of you that want to enhance the Handleing of your
car....

We ended last session with Data we recorded into the computer ..... and having done
that we found out some real quick things we needed to change.....

The Wheel Rate .....= the Spring Rate times Motion Ratio is very low on the front of
these cars .... but that's not all bad..... if you have a Roll Bar to help you transfer the
weight when you get to the corners..... '

And by the way the Tire manufactures are making great tires now days that can
handle the higher spring rates..... but you have to be able to get allot of Negative
camber for these new Radial Tires.....

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So we took a look at the current Roll bar...and it calculated out to be around 132#
per inch of travel.....

Having Raced 2200#lb cars for over 20 years and using anything from 350Hp to
700Hp we found that in order to control the front of the car you need a Roll Bar on
the front that is around 400#lbs per inch.....

So we sat out to change that and here's the process that many have all ready done
..... as we have figured out we need to do.....

Here's the original.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:05:38 PM

BTW I got allot of info to show so please bear with me....

So you go have a new bar made..... Stock Car style.... only the best.... plus they
work great....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:10:57 PM

Splined Bars are good because the arms don't flex like on the existing bar..... the
effective length on a Splined bar is from inside of one arm to the inside of another
arm......

The effective length on the stangard bar is the lenght of the bar because the arms
flex.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:18:59 PM

Each one of the Bronze bushings need to be fit to the bar... with about .001
clearance....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:23:59 PM

The Roll Bar and Blocks need to have a nice fit on the bench before you get to the
car.....

When you get to the car who knows where the bolt holes are drilled so we'll have to
drill the mounting holes over size .....

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We went from 3/8"..... .375" to .400" to get the clearance......

Seems like the bolt holes are not consistant as to the space between them..... both
of ours were at different bolt centers.....

So you make the holes in the blocks to split the difference and then open up the
holes in the chassis so you have some clearance ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:31:25 PM

Here's the steel and aluminum arms..... on the steel you can see how tough and
rough the edge is to start with ....

There's different reasons for using the Steel arms and the Aluminum arms.....

We're going to make both and then we'll try different idea's we have for them....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:36:05 PM

BTW we found that the 40*degree bend actually turns out to be 41*degrees and also
you will need to fit each arm to each control arm...

Here we are Cuttng the arms down and shaping and putting a radius on the arms....
we have to cut the first .005 off flat before we start trying to put the radius on the
bar

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:38:13 PM

Here the Arms are Radiused ...... Bent...... Powder Coated.......

Turned out very nice ....we like the color.....Black Chrome.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:41:20 PM

Now we got the Pillow Blocks back from the Powder Coater and have to install the
bushings.....

The bushings are great because as they wear and get alittle loose....(that will take a
couple of years).... all you do is take to sockets and push them out and install new
ones....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:44:42 PM

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These are Thrust and Radial bushings and that will cover one side of the Pillow
Blocks..... we'll put a Thrust bushing on the other side of the Pillow block when we
install everything...

Just push the busining back into the block..... it only has about a .003" to .004"
press fit...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:46:47 PM

Now they are all Powder Coated and Bushings installed ..... and we fit them on the
bar againg just to make sure nothing changed....and it didn't....

So they are ready to go....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:51:04 PM

For those of us that have the Steel lower control arms ....we have to make a bracket
to go where the original Roll bar attached to the control arm.....

So the first thing you have to do is reduce the size of the hole because it was made
for the big rubber bushings ....ugh....

We just made some Hats....that's what I call them because they look like a hat......
wellll.....

They will seat in the large hole and not be as thick as the bracket and will clamp and
locate the new bracket

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:54:21 PM

This is not a very good photo of the Hats fitting into the existiong bracket.... but you
get the idea.....

Also for those of you that have the Aluminum billet lower control arms .... check with
Tom K or David K to find out it you can put a load on the heim that screws into the
lower control arm....if so you don't need to make these brackets ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:56:39 PM

Here's the bracket that fits up into the existing steel control arm bracket.....

Again all powder coated and tucked up into the control arm like it was made for it....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 03:59:41 PM

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Here's a side view of the bracket in the control arm..... there's no problem with
putting a 400-500#lb Roll Bar on this bracket...

It's nice and thick and also made out of 2024 again.......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:03:24 PM

OK ....Now we have the Splined Roll bar..... Blocks..... Arms.....Control Arm


brackets..... and collars made.....

We can install it and start to check things out.....

Like will the arms clear the tube next to the Roll bar mounting plate.....

Will the bar move...... do we have to shim.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:10:09 PM

Once you get it up on the mounting holes ..... and install the additional thrust
bushing....and then the locking collars.....

You can move it ....expect it to be stiff..... it will be tight..... and I'm sure not every
car has the chassis and mounting pads in the same place....

If you need to .....get some shim stock and make some shims .....

As long as it move ...even if it's tight .....it will loosen up...as time goes by....I'm sure
within a week of driving it will loosen up....

We also use never-seze on the splines and grease on the businings both inside and
on the sides then we clamp the collars to the side of the blocks....

We don't push the collars with allot of force ....just rotate them up next to the blocks
and tighten....

Notice we use collars on both sides of the blocks....thats just because we don't want
the bar to move and what's one more collar when you have plenty of room

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:12:19 PM

Install the links and center them up in the bracket

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:15:20 PM

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The link has to have special attention paid to it ....because it's linking a lower control
arm and the arm of the roll bar....

Both of which are in different Arc's..... and both going in completely different
directions....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:21:54 PM

One of the things I'm a big believer in....is running the suspension thru it's
motion..... for any reason....

You have to start at Ride Height and then center up the link and then move the
suspension up into bump .....at least 2.5"........ and then do the same in Droop
.....2.5"inches..... and make sure the link does not cause a bind..... It will move one
way in bump....then the other way in Droop....

If it does bind you'll know it....the suspension just stops and won't move..... then you
need to change some angles on the bar or mounting bracket.... or Heim

Sometimes you may have to go to a High Mis alignment Heim..... or some heims
have more angular movement then others....

Each car has it's own deal.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:25:02 PM

McMaster Carr and others sell a Drill bushing that is Harden and makes great spacers
for Heims.....

And Spacing is very important when you are dealing with heims and suspensions....

Here's a 3/8" bushing and a 1/4" bushing....we ended up with the 1/4" bushing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:26:59 PM

Here the heim is attached for the check period to see how the angles work out....

After we tried this we came up with another idea ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:32:34 PM

I don't know how many of you have ever had to change the Roll bar when the car is
on the ground .....it is a royal PITA......

So what we decided to do ...since we had the Steel Arms....

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Is to elongate the holes like they do on Formula cars..... there by only having to
loosen the bolt and just slide it where you want it and then tighten it back up....

I think it's going to work fine..... and will be very easy to adjust....don't know why
we didn't do it years ago..... trying to get the bolt out of one hole and inserting it into
another hole is a problem and many times the bolts get stuck in the hole they are
in....so you have to whack the bolt out of the hole...... ugh....

This is the hot set-up....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:35:50 PM

After we'd had the bar in and out about 10 times we finally figured out that the
blocks needed to be installed this way....

It makes it easier to get the bolts out and you don't bang your hands on the body of
the car....

So we just turned the blocks around for ease of operation.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:38:53 PM

Also if you look closely you'll see the tube I was talking about that had a interference
fit with the Roll Bar arm.....

Now the blocks are up and the arms and links are good for the Angular motion....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on December 31, 2004, 04:43:30 PM

Now you have a 400#-500#lb Roll Bar installed and ready to go..... Wew..... that was
a long one and I appologize for taking so long to get through it....

The next area we want to address is a Rear Roll bar.....and also Bump Steer.....

I hope this helps someone and is just a little Christmas present from Morris to you
guy's...

Morris
KMP 259

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: computerworks on January 01, 2005, 07:51:07 AM

Nice work Morris...


...would like to hear your counterpoint on the rear bar, which, on the originals, many
racers have removed, they say, to improve the handling.

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For a vintage perspective on the front bar...

Here is a pic of the mounts on CSX3002, the 427 proto...

(http://www.csxinfo.net/iB_htmlII/uploads/post-2-76325-swaymnt2a.jpg)

Here is a pic of CSX3104, first run of street cars...

(http://www.csxinfo.net/iB_htmlII/uploads/post-2-76008-swaymnt1.jpg)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 01, 2005, 09:03:17 AM

Ron

Those are some great Photo's.... and especially how the bars use to be made..... And
still are....

One of the thoughts that goes on in my mind is that using a bar that is bent where
the arms go back to the control arms....... reduces the effective rate of the bar.....
because the arms are flexing as well......

Which would lead me to the point that if they were getting 250# per inch of travel
then it would make sense that they had to remove the rear bar because they didn't
have as much Transfer of weight from the inside wheel to the outside wheel....

Which would make perfect sense that the fix would be to remove the rear bar to get
the Oversteer condition to go away or be better..... And they were probably reaching
the Effective Roll Couple between the front and the rear.....which means the car
started handleing better....

With the Spline type of bar ...and the effective rate of about 450# or more then the
roll couple between the front and rear of the car will change and create a Understeer
condition ..... inwhich we would then use a Rear bar to control the Front to Rear Roll
couple with a Rear Bar that will give us about 80-150#lbs per inch of movement.....

My vision of a Rear bar is going between the gas tank and the C-channel at the end
of the frame and coming forward to connect up to the lower control arm somewhere
between the Halfshaft and the control arm..... Unlike the way they did it in the past
when they were on top of the suspension.

Why would we want to go up to higher roll bar rates ??..... Because the tires of today
can handle allot more Negative Camber and allot higher Wheel rates..... so that's
what we are trying to get to .....Plus if you can control the car with Roll bars then the
Wheel Rate doesn't have to be so high....

The tires of years ago would not handle much heat...and would go away very
quickly.... in a 30 minute race we could use up a set of tires.... where as today they
are able to go allot longer on the same compound of tire......

I hope I answered the question.... By the way we are planning on using 275 X 35 X
18 inch tires.......on the front

Wheels are being made by BBS and hope to be done soon...... It's taken all most a
year to get them done the way they need to be done....

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Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: computerworks on January 01, 2005, 09:23:38 AM

Quote from: Morris on January 01, 2005, 09:03:17 AM

My vision of a Rear bar is going between the gas tank and the C-channel at the end of the frame and coming
forward to connect up to the lower control arm somewhere between the Halfshaft and the control arm.....
Unlike the way they did it in the past when they were on top of the suspension.

Morris... here's a pic from my files on how the rear bar is mounted on the CSX4000
Spec Racers...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 01, 2005, 07:37:06 PM

Ron

Thanks for the photo ....but I think we have a better and easier way to mount the
rear bar.... we've already bent 2 of them up out of conduit to see if they fit..... which
I hope will be easier to deal with if you want to change.... The photo's you have are
the best..... I can see how you are building an original and being very precise about
it..... good for you....

Jim

I don't know anybody in Germany for BBS..... just the guy's over here and that's
because we used their wheels when we were racing.....

The other reason we had to have them made was because our over hang on the
brake calipers is so large....2"...... that we needed to have wheels made to handle
that over hang caused by the big brake calipers....

We can't use a Knock off..... we'll have to use a Nut because the spokes got in the
way of the knock off....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 01, 2005, 07:46:57 PM

Ron

I did some calculations on the front bars they were using.....

Existing 3/4" front bar = 132# per inch


Old style 1" front bar = 350# per inch
New style 1" spline front bar = 450# per inch where we have it set now

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The New style ....Spline one .... will go to = 550# per inch .... if need be by sliding
the link forward one inch

This high of rate on the front will cause a need for a rear bar to balance the car
...and on the newer tires it should all balance out..... Road America will tell the tale...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 02, 2005, 08:09:48 PM

Jim

I'm planning on getting the Nuts from Accurate Machine in Torrance Ca.... I think he
makes all of the hubs for many folks..... not sure

Anyway.... I know there's a difference in all of the mfgs of hubs and knock-offs...... I
think Tom K told me about George Petrus at Accurate Machine...

He has a web site..... but I don't know the address ...call him and ask if he make the
nut for a Trigo.... .... I bet he does.... I bet him and Lynn Park go way back...

We were looking at SS Nuts....

I believe Finishline in Florida has some Aluminum nut on sale that will work..... and
are allot less dollars.... ....

Morris

You know you'll have to get a 3/4" or 1" impact to use the Nuts..... A 1/2" won't be
strong enough..... we used the nut on our GT-1 car and believe me you need at least
a 3/4"....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 02:54:10 PM

Now that we have finished the front of the car .... we need to address the rear
suspension and alignment of KMP 259.....

I'm amazed at how many folks build their car and then go to a Firestone or Goodyear
or Tire store and have their car alignment..... then they drive out and as long as the
street is smooth....everything is OK..... but then they hit a bump or get on the power
and the car get's to acting like it want to go in two different directions at one
time......

You see sitting on a Alignment rack is nice but only at that ride height....and then
when you hit a bump the Toe-in or out of the wheels moves and the car acts as if it
has a mind of it's own....

Part of the process of building a car is to do the Bump Steer and get it right.... if you
don't ...the car will change lanes on you when you do hit a bump.... that's
interesting....especially when you don't turn the wheel and the car just move over a
lane..... Oh boy....

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Well we are going to take you thru Bump Steer of the Rear suspension ....and
everything applies to both ends of the car.... meaning front or rear....

Only certain folks understand this Bump Steer thing and it's not a black magic.....

The first thing you have to have is a plate to mount to the hub so you can measure
moving the suspension up into bump or down into droop....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 02:57:45 PM

How do you know where to put the holes.... do they spin the plate and throw a dart
at it..... maybe they get out a string and do a circle and then start making marks for
the holes..... Not.....

You go to your friendly Machinist Manual and look up the factors that will give you
your X and Y measurements

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 02:59:33 PM

Here it show you the factors that you multiply times the Bolt circle and then you can
start drilling your holes

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:04:05 PM

Just so you know .... the plate came from McMasters Carr...... it's 3/8" thick and was
a 36" long by 8" wide .... we cut it down to 28" before we started.....

Find Center ....bore the center hole 3.100" ..... then 4 1/4" bolt circle .... 6 pins.....
.530" holes

You need a 3/8" plate so when your dial indicators are out at the ends it will be
stable....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:09:29 PM

Now we take a Centering bit and with slight pressure .... we drag it across the plate
in a Horizontal line from one end to another... 25.5" long

We also scribe a line going verticle in the center of the plate and also at the ends at
12.75" radius poing so we can easily see when we are doing the Bump Steer....

When it's done we'll take a fine point Sharpie and put ink into the scribed line so we
don't have to use a tape measure when we go into bump or droop...

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:12:26 PM

Here's what the plate will look like when completed ..... nice and strong and we have
it marked so we can be consistant when we do bump steer....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:17:28 PM

The lines on the side of the plate have to be in ink so your Dial indicator will move
over them without falling into a scribed line and cause and error in the readings ......

Later we added a 1/2" mark above the 2" mark on both Bump and Droop.....

Now if we are going to use Dial indicators to measure how much the hub or spindle
moves we need a good strong and heavy base to attach the dial indicators to....

This one we made out of some 2"X 2" .120 wall tube we had laying around..... cost
$12.00

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:22:41 PM

And of course you need a couple of Dial indicators.....

These we got from Enco...... $20.95...each.....

You want the 2" kind because it allows the pointer to reach the plate and also you
want to set it at the 1" mark and at depending on the hub's direction of travel will go
in or out...... so on the 1" mark we can measure the amount of movement we have
and which direction it goes....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:24:58 PM

Now we need a piece of 3" PVC pipe.... to hold the plate on the hub nice and tight.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:30:37 PM

The stand for the indicators has to be stong and stable........

But so does the stand that the Bump Steer gauge sits on ......

So we bought a Butcher Block Work bench..... 30" X 60" ....and found a Stair Mfg
locally and took it over and had it cut in Half......

Now we have a 30"X 30" work bench ..... then we wanted to add some height to it so
we put some 4'' X 4" to stablize the legs ....

This is a strong and stable table to work off of.... and the best part is I just need to

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get another pair of legs and I got another small work bench..... like for the front and
rear at the same time.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:36:48 PM

To start with we mount the plate to the hub and tighten it down.... reverse the Knock
off so it is not in your way when you put the Bump Steer stand up next to it.....

Set the table at ride height..... we do that with the lift.... 4 3/4"..... move the car so
it's 4 3/4" above the table....and level with each other....

We are running a 335 X 30 X 18" rear wheel that is 25.6" in Diameter.....

So our radius is 12.750" counting some deflection of the side wall.... so we line up
the hub with the center of our Radius

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:42:58 PM

BTW that neat Jack is one we got for the Harley's when they are on the big lift.....
but it works great for what we are doing because it is stable in both directions fore
and aft....

Set the stand up and attach the Dial indicators ..... since the hub is at ride height ....
then your lines on the plate at 0"....should line up .... if they are off alittle bit its no
big deal....

Now move the stand into the plate so you compress the dial indicators to the 1" mark
...that way the hub can go either way and you can record the data.....

This is the Analog way of doing Bump Steer...... but this way works.....

Set the pointers and then lock down with a wrench the dial indicators so they don't
move in any direction....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:45:17 PM

Here's a shot of the Dial indicator showing it centered out at Zero at the 1" mark....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 03:49:46 PM

I always like to do bump first..... don't know why just a habit.....

Start raising the hub up to the 1" mark on the plate and make sure the indicators
end up on the 1" mark on both sides of the plate....

Sometimes you will have to slightly rotate the plate one way or the other to make

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sure the indicators line up.....

Consistency is the name of the game and knowing we are going to be doing this
many times we want to be able to repeat everything we do....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:01:30 PM

Once you are at the 1" mark ..... read the indicators...... and note which way they
moved ..... meaning in towards the center of the car or out towards the outside of
the car...... very important to know which way the plate moves....easy to get
confused.....

I have to put my hands together infront of my chest with my index fingers touching
and act like my chest is the dial indicators and stand and my hands are the plate...
then I go thru the motions the make sure I understand just what is going on.....

Then you write down the amount the gauge moved ...like going into bump the hub
will move in towards the center of the car so the gauges will read lower than the 1"
setting we started at..... and what we write down is the amount the gauge moved ....
like .090 In or out ...which ever way it moved..... '

And you do the same thing on the rear gauge..... read the gauge to see if it moved in
or out and then how much..... write it down.....

We'll write it down for the 1", 2", 2.5" marks in Bump and the 1" and 2" marks in
Droop...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:05:08 PM

After we do our measuring at 1", 2", and 2.5" in Bump....... and write it down

Then we bring the hub back down to Zero and re Zero out the Dial Indicators......
they will move coming back to Zero.... so we just re calibrate the indicators and get
ready to do the same thing in Droop we just did in Bump....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:10:06 PM

Now again we do the same thing in Droop...... lower to 1" mark ...make sure the
pointers are both on the 1" lines (constency)....

Then we read the gauges again ...

First the front gauge...... did it come in or out.....and how much ......

Then do the Rear gauge and see which way it moves and how much it moves......

Then you can take a calculator and start figuring out the differences in both readings
to know how much the tire moves and look at the direction to know whether it's in

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Toe-in or Toe-out

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:17:37 PM

Now here is how we write down the readings we just took ..... both in bump and
Droop......

Also you can see which direction the plate moved..... in or out..... this will tell us
when we do the calculator ...whether to add the two numbers or subtract the two
numbers.....

The Standard that you shoot for is .015" for 1" of travel in either direction.....

This is where I believe allot of folks are off just like our suspension and think that a
Alignment at their local tire store will fix it.....Wrong..... Wrongggggg

If you look at my numbers they are not very good and when the suspension goes
into bump ...it toes in allot ..... to much.....

I bet their aren't 10 cars on this Webb sight that have ever go this far...... Well now
you know cause we are trying to teach you how to do Bump Steer and make your
suspension allot better at handling....

Enough Soap Box.....move on....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:28:54 PM

So ...Now we need to make an adjustment...... well on the front you would move the
tie rod end at the spindle or upright..... or you would move the Steering rack up or
down or in or out......

Not many people know about changing the bump steer in the rear of the car..... the
way you change it is to rotate the upright on the axil.....

And it doesn't take much..... all you are trying to do is make the two different Arc of
the upper control arm and the lower control arm work together and not try and steer
the car...... that's what the front wheels do.....

So as the notes show.... we turned the forward heim in the upper control arm IN....
one turn.....there by causeing the upright to move towards the front of the car......

Then we put everything back together and then start all over again with setting up
the Bump Steer Gauge and Plate and everything......

Then we go thru the motions of measureing the Bump as we did before....1', 2" and
2.5" in Bump and 1"and 2" in Droop....againg

And write down the numbers so we can compare......

Now you see why we spend so much time making sure our bases are stable and
strong .... that will equal Consistency

And now is time for Repeatability.....

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And you can see the numbers changed....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:41:19 PM

So we removed the top control arm on the Left Rear and again made an
adjustment.....

Turn the forward heim in 1 more Turn ......

As we turn the forward control arm heim in we are moving the top of the upright
towards the front of the car.....which is rotating the upright on the axil......

It took many years and lots of books to understand this ...but it does work.....

Now the killer is that the Billet lower control arm has the trailing arm mounted in the
middle of the lower control arm ...unlike the old style steel lower control arms where
the link is mounted below the lower control arm about 1.5"......

This change that Kirkham has made will make a big difference in Bump steer on the
rear of the car and the old style lower control arm would never get the Bump Steer
very good at all..... therefore what they did was to dial in more Toe-In to compensate
for the poor Bump Steer characteristics ......

Any way .... Look at how we ended up ..... our Bump Steer is Great .... that means
as the tire move up and down in the Wheel Well ... it is going to point in the direction
we set it when we do our alignment.....

This is very important when you are trying to make a car handle and get around a
corner of any kind..... be it at Speed or Street..... probably more important on the
street because most race tracks are somewhat smooth....

Check out these numbers.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:44:15 PM

This one is probably hard to see but it's when we started and the numbers when we
finished.....

Now it's important to say this is not something that takes 10 minutes....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:48:26 PM

Here's how many times we had to take the Upper control arm off to make an
adjustment.....

Another thing that is important to note is that you want to go past your ideal setting
and then come back to it.....

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Making it Repeatable...... know that eveything is working like it should be....

The Right Rear actually worked out better with the numbers .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 04:55:06 PM

Here's a photo of the Right Rear and I just want to make sure everyone understands
....... that we are Screwing in the front Heim which is rotating the upright forward
and allowing the two control arms to not induce any Bump Steer into the
Suspension....

Of course this is done after we have first set our Camber and checked our Camber
curve which is about 1*degree per inch of travel.....

And then set our Toe with 90*degree angle pieces ..... 1.5/16th.....Toe In...... maybe
an 1/8"th inch depending on how the motor pulls....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 05:02:07 PM

Remember when you start moving the heims..... in and out of the control arms.......
the rule........ is

11/2 times the diameter of the threaded part of the heim.....

In other words..... a 3/4" Heim is threaded at 3/4"X 16...... 1.5" long..... so you have
to keep the heim threaded into the control arm or any piece the heim is threaded
into 1.5 times ....=.... 3/4" + 3/8"...= 1 1/8" screwed into the control arm .....

That's a safety thing and strength.....

We don't want any heims or control arms breaking....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 05:09:29 PM

Guy's I have to apologize to you ..... when I start writing this stuff ....I get into a
daze much like when we were in the Race Car.....

My Brain just doesn't work right and it isn't multitasking when I start writing this
stuff......

Please don't think I'm not responding to your comment or question....I'm just trying
to get it out of my brain and my hands just don't go fast enough...... and my spelling
is not so good.... but I hope we're able to help you guy's understand what you need
to do.....

Wow.....

Thanks for the Kind words and we'll try to keep going forward..... and help as much
as we can.....

This particular Bump Steer issue is very important and you can't get it at you local

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store..... not sure where to get it.... but it needs to be done....and will take a long
time if done properly ..... but you will reap the rewards immediately and in the
future....

I'm just glad it's helping....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 05:17:25 PM

TC

You're right on the Mark..... and with the manual you can always get where you need
to be .... but .....always do like we did on the 6 pin hub drive..... make the bolt holes
at .530..... 30thousands sounds like allot of clearance.... but it's not nad the plate
slides on nice and tight.....

Morgan ....

I sell Printing Press's..... Heidelbergs.....

Pat ....

Thanks...

Damn my fingers are stiff from using the big wrenches on the control arms...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 07, 2005, 07:52:41 PM

Hey TC

Are you talking about the Dial indicator stand....?

And yes ....on the Motorcycle stand..... get the Handy lift ....the big one that works
with air..... and brings the motorcycle up to waist high..... same as they use in the
Harley shops.....It's worth it's weight in gold.....and can be used for many things.....

I got the small scissor jack from Drag Specialities..... in the back of the book ...tool
section.... it is a great little jack....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 11, 2005, 05:58:35 AM

TC

After giving it allot of thought ..... the Rear lower control arm trailing link has the

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problem of hanging down below the lower control arm and that puts the arc of the
trailing link in a position to push the lower control arm out or into Toe-out in
bump...... so the standard fix that allot of folks use is to Toe-In the rear to over come
the inherient Toe-out of the lower control arm trailing link..... And that's bad.....

I believe if you moved the Trailing link on top of the lower control arm in a horizontal
position instead of a verticle position you would greatly reduce the amount of Toe
-out as the rear suspension goes into bump......

All that would need to happen is a bracket welded above and horizontal to the lower
control arm where the heim is mounted now..... this would change the arc and not be
pushing the lower control arm out when it goes into bump....

Just some thoughts

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 11, 2005, 05:59:57 AM

TC

This is for those that have the Steel lower control arms..... :)

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 21, 2005, 08:34:51 AM

FYI

We are working on a Morris/NASCAR ...... Front upright with Tom and David Kirkham
right now and will go thru the install and bump steer of the front of the car as soon
as we get it finished....

Also the Rear Lower control arm needs to be changed to be able to install a rear Roll
bar so we can control the weight transfer in the rear.... that will be next after we get
the front of the car stablized...

Different rules apply when you are going to run 150-185 mph for a sustainded period
of time....

And I'm sure all of these changes will make a improvement in the future..... for the
Kirkham products

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 03:57:58 PM

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Well we got the Morris Uprights back and they turned out Great..... The Kirkhams did
exactly what we asked them to do and the uprights are ready to take on Road
America or any track and handle allot of loading from the newer style tires....

But first we have to disassemble the lower control arms to have them powder coated
and then we'll put them back together and go back into the Bump Steer mode.....
That's what got all of this going in the first place....

So here we have the Steel lower control arm(stronger) and the bushings are knocked
out with a brass drift punch.... and the lower ball joint is nothing more than a
Spherical bearing and a Taper pin to attach to the upright....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:00:34 PM

As you can see the lower ball joint is the spherical bearing and the taper pin to attach
to the upright....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:03:15 PM

This is the bottom of the Spherical bearing and the Taper Pin ....

We'll push the spherical bearing and taper pin out from the other side.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:08:44 PM

We'll put a Arbor press on top of the Taper Pin and push the spherical bearing out the
bottom of the lower control arm.....

This is easy and the Taper pin is tighter in the spherical bearing then the spherical
bearing is in the lower control arm.....

In addition ...we had to grind off some of the material to get the large rotors to clear
the lower control arm.....

The rotors are 13 X 1.25 thick and as you lift the suspension up thru it's travel and
turn the steering wheel the rotor would hit the lower control arm....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:13:43 PM

This is what the lower ball joint looks like when it's pressed out of the lower control
arm.....

It's nothing more than a spherical bearing and Taper pin .....

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When it wears out (spherical bearing) just press out the Taper pin out of the
spherical bearing and press the taper pin into a new spherical bearing....

Also notice the cover that fits over the bottom of the bearing and pin....when
attached it locates the bearing in the lower control arm so the spherical bearing will
stay in one place..... very nice set up....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:20:48 PM

Now you can see how easy it is to replace the ball joints......

The hardest part is removing the taper pin out of the upright and the way you do
that is to loosen the nut that is holding the ball joint together.....then heat the area
where the taper pin is in the upright...... then take a brass drift punch and put it on
the end of the taper pin and hit it with a large hammer..... if it doesn't come loose by
the 2nd or 3rd hit..... heat the upright some more..... remember it's going to loosen
up as the heat sinks into the aluminum..... then hit it again and it should come
out.....

Some might use a fork....but it would destroy the cover and rubber part of the ball
joint..... also it would wedge it's self into the upright and damage the upright..... no
need for that....

Just be patient and use the heat to help release the pin and the upright...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:25:58 PM

It's easy to see.....that if you wanted to replace the spherical bearing .....all you
would have to do is press out the Taper pin out of the bearing and then press it into a
new one.....

The number on the spherical bearing is a

Aurora PNB 12T...... Very good spherical bearing for Performance Racing series.....

Save the Taper Pin ..... and reuse....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:30:34 PM

You can see here how the cover fits against the spherical bearing and helps to hold it
in place when installed on the lower control arm.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:33:49 PM

Here's all of the parts for the lower control arm..... and when it returns from the
Powder coaters then we'll assemble in reverse order.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:44:35 PM

First I have to say that Tom and David K. did a great job of revisesing the upright for
us ...... even to the point of adding afew things I didn't ask for .....

How this all started was a good friend who is a Engineer for a Indy Car team here in
Chicago..... stopped by one day and we looked at the suspension and we were
considering the changes we'd make if we were going to take the car to Road America
and run it for a 100 mile race.....

Well when we got done marking up the upright and making all of the changes we
wanted to make ....I thought Tom K was going to through me out in the street......
but not so..... they took what we did and revised the upright and it turn out really
great.....

Remember this is a Hi-Performance upright..... you don't need this if you are running
on the street or if you track your car once in a while......

But if you are going to get serious and play at real speeds ...then you would be
better off using this type of a upright.....

We are fortunate to have allot of experience at high speed in GT -1 and GTO and GTP
cars..... so we are not looking to do any damage to the car or myself and are trying
to prevent any mishaps based on our experience...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:50:05 PM

Some of the changes we have made are

Gussets on the steering arms


Thicker steering arms
Webb reenforcement on in between the steering arms
Solid stength for the brake caliper mounts....
Gussets on the brake mounts

In addition..... you can easily see the size of the hubs and the bearing that support
the hubs in the upright....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 04:56:14 PM

The size of the caliper mount is important when you are using GN Brakes..... You
need stability as the big calipers clamp down on the rotor .... but you are also
clamping down on a 13" rotor and you need allot of leverage to hold the forces......

Also heat is a killer because the rotors are running at 1100* to 1200*degrees and
this heat gets transfered everywhere.....

Strength and stability are the key with large brakes..... doesn't do you any good to

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put big calipers and big rotors on and then have flexing and such when you hit the
brakes ...... could get your attention....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:00:35 PM

The steering arms are lower for the bump steer issue and we'll get into that when the
lower control arm gets back from the Powder coaters......

The thickness is important...but also look at the webb in between the steering
arms..... now the arms are one unit and if you hit a curb or go off track you don't
have to worry about breaking one of the arms ......

It's easy to say that you wouldn't break one of the arms before we modified
them...... but now we know and that build confidence in the car you are about to
drive...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:05:29 PM

As you look at the back side of the upright..... not only are you looking for
strength.... but there's another issue going on .....

Air is going to be coming into the inside of the rotor and you want it to exit out the
vanes of the rotor.....

If you look at the back of the upright it is blocking much of the area that would be
leaking air and not forcing it thru the rotor..... in the area's that we need to ...we'll
make up brackets and seal off the air so it can leave the inside of the rotor except
thru the vanes in the rotor ...which keeps the rotor heat under control.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:09:06 PM

Now you're looking at how the upper ball joint mounts to the upright.....

This is a great idea..... because you can change the height of the upper ball joint......

That means you can change the Instant Center point on the suspension......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:14:00 PM

When you change the Instant Center point of the suspension .....or if you raise or
lower the outer ball joint ....

This will change the Roll Centers of the suspension...... this is very important when
getting a car to handle thru a corner......

Also you need to be able to get the car to roll equally on the front and rear roll

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centers and this makes it possible the help that situation.....

I don't know any uprights (except formula cars) that build uprights and allow you to
change this....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:21:22 PM

In addition to changing the Instant Center points ..... it will also change the Camber
curve as well....

If you raise it .... the camber will come on much faster in bump......

When we say raise or lower the upper ball joint..... what we mean is that we will
make another piece that mounts to the upright that would be taller or shorter..... so
all we are doing is moving the upper control arm and changing the radis of the arc or
when the arc starts..... as it is attached to the upright......

The compromise is that which is better Camber or Roll Centers ...... the consensus of
opinion is that Roll Centers are the more important issue and will make the car better
to drive.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:23:17 PM

Here's the lower mount for the Lower ball joint..... no surprises here..... just
strong....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:30:43 PM

In addition to the Upright changes we made ..... the upper control arm need some
changes....

What you'll notice now is that they are solid.....

This is important because as we do the camber setting and if we need more Neg
camber..... then we can machine off another 1/4"...... which will give us another 4
turns..... which will get the static camber somewhere close to where we want it.....

Many of the new tires require as much as -3 Neg camber to start off ....and with the
camber gains we have in this car it will work out exactly the way we wanted it to....

Most of the time on the street we'll run -1 Neg camber...... and then just turn in the
Heim ends on the upper control arm to get the camber we need for the track.....

I would add that camber in the tires is dictated to by the temps of the tires and how
they are responding.... so the wheel will be adjusted after it's up to temp and we
check it.....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:33:42 PM

The upper ball joint mounts the same way the lower ball joint mounted.....

It's just a Taper pin and spherical bearing with a cover that holds everything
together....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:38:52 PM

You can see the taper pin and spherical bearing in the upper control arm....

Just remove the cover...... and use a Arbor press and press out the spherical bearing
and Taper pin.....

And then if need be..... press out the Taper pin out of the spherical bearing and
replace the spherical bearing..... and press the Taper pin and spherical bearing back
into the upper control arm.....

Very straight forward.... and strong...

The taper pin works well because you don't get any rattles down the road ..... it
always stays tight and won't loosen up as time goes on.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:44:58 PM

The upper control arms are now solid and allow us to make changes to them for
Camber and ball joint movement..... this is very good because it allows you to make
changes as you feel they are needed.....

Or better yet ....sometimes we just change things to see what happens ...... they are
not always good ...but let you know you went the wrong way...... and you will feel
the difference fairly quickly....

Driving a car on the street is going to be fun ...because we'll use the street to
test...... of course we'll stay with in the speed limit...... in the west.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 05:49:42 PM

All in all we are very excited about the changes we've made ...... and look forward to
working them out....

We'll get the lower Control arms back from the PC and then we'll assemble the
suspension and then we'll get back into the Bump Steer on the front again....

That's when we'll have to change the height of the steering rack or tie rod ends
where they attach to the upright....

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Hope we didn't get to wordy but sometimes you have to understand the foundation
before we go fast.....

Just my $.02..... and hope it helps

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 29, 2005, 08:36:22 PM

Gary

The wheel bearings are the standard ones Kirkham has been using...which are the
Porsche bearings.... no flex and last many many miles....

David

I agree .... but I'd love to add some track and see what that does...... I know it
would really make the cars work much better....especially coming off the corners...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on January 31, 2005, 07:32:37 PM

Thanks for all of the support..... And I am enjoying the work and ability to work with
a Cobra....

But I've learned as much from allot of the guy's here on Gasholes..... Many things to
finish the car that we had never thought of .....

I do hope that Tom and David K have started to learn that all of us can make the
product a better product..... and having a better product is what I would want if I
was in MFG....

The other part of the equation is that we are somewhat establishing how to do things
that we are dealing with...... Dash wiring,,,, suspension..... drivetrain.... and other
stuff as time goes on... and that will give us a reference when you have to
disassemble something we have covered....

And many of these things are very important in the build process.....

Pat is a great example of sharing his knowledge but more importantly is that.....Like
Pat......you take your time and build the car the right way so when you start
challenging yourself and the Cobra you have the confidence in yourself as well as the
car.... to have fun..... because all of us like to squeeze the throttle..... or we wouldn't
have a Cobra.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: TC on January 31, 2005, 07:56:07 PM

Morris,

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Your recent posts on the suspension pieces are really informative (as is everything in
your thread). I have a few questions.

I know you had lengthy discussions with the Kirkhams about suspension before
buying the car based on your initial posts on ClubCobra.

Q. How much of what you showed us in the last few days via pics of suspension
pieces are pieces as delivered stock via Kirkhams versus perhaps stuff you re-did?
By "re-did" (sorry Wilf)...with the billet stuff, I can't tell what they shipped, versus
what they or someone else CNC'd for you.

Q. If you used their suspension stuff, how much did you modify geometry of joint
engagements into the A-arms, upright, etc? Again, I know you had a lot of initial
thoughts on geometry, what have they now incorporated into production design from
your discovery and what "new plates" were made for the "printing press" (aka CNC
machine) of the A-Arms and uprights when you got done with them?

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 01, 2005, 04:51:11 AM

TC

The pieces I just showed (Upright..... Upper control arm.... ) were new because of
changes we made to the original pieces that they ship with the car....

We have spent allot of time studying the geometry of the suspension and decided to
start with stock measurements except for the upper control arm...which we are
making shorter for more neg camber.... and make all of the pieces stronger and
adjustable where it affects Roll centers....

The Key is to be able to raise or lower the upper ball joint and the same with the
lower ball joint..... this is what moves the Instant center point and the roll center....

Concensus of opinion is that the Roll centers are more important than camber.....
that's not to say that camber is not important.....especially with the new tires.....

The proof will be when we get the car on a track and get a chance to work out the
suspension.... and will all of this thought and work mean anything....maybe
not....maybe so....

It will take some time to work out the suspension.... and balance the car...... ahhhh
the benefits of testing with no pressure....

Tom K and I have worked together on this project and will continue as we make
changes..... and I'm sure this technology will make it's way into the cars ...how soon
really should take some time until we have a chance to do the testing ......

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 04, 2005, 06:53:32 PM

I never thought about doing a book..... just wanted to help .....

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I wouldn't have a clue how to go about doing a book ...... and not sure all of the
process....

Although it would be nice to do and involve others in the process.....

Maybe we should just do a Gasholes book ..... but I like the Ford GT idea..... ;) ;) ;)

And I've been looking for a way to get off the traveling road......

Oh well new issue coming this weekend.....Assembly of the front suspension...

Later
Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 07:50:48 AM

Well we got the Lower Control arm back from the Powder Coaters..... Black
Chrome..... Nice....

Then we had to clean up the holes for the bushings and shock bolts and where the
spherical bearing will fit into the control arm..... a 1/2" drill on the shock bolt holes
and 1"X 1" flapper wheel in a die grinder worked perfect to clean up the bushing and
spherical bearing holes....

Then we used a 1930's Arbor press to press in the spherical bearings..... take allot of
power..... the fit was tight...to get the spherical bearings seated into the lower
control arm...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 07:54:11 AM

Now we are pressing in the Bronze bushings.....

They were not that tight..... I think we could have done them in a vice..... but we
had the technology..... :)

Be especially sure you get the bushings or spherical bearing straight going into the
hole.... if not knock it out and start over....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 07:58:28 AM

Once we have the Bronze bushings in place we will use a reamer ..... 5/8" to ream
out the holes.....

In addition to the reamer we found it neccessary to go back in with a die grinder and
a worn down 1" X 1" flapper wheel to get some clearance..... the pins were just to
tight......

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 08:04:13 AM

Now when you are fitting the pin into the bushing..... there are two concerns.....

One is how does the pin fit into the bore of the bushing..... just make sure you have
enough clearance for the pin to move freely and not bind up both in a rotational and
sideways direction......

Two is how long the pin is in relationship to the bushings..... the pin needs to be
.015" longer so it will be tight and the bushings can rotate on the pin between the
tabs on the frame......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 08:09:57 AM

Just use a caliper to measure and file the outside flat of the bushing...... set it up so
you can use both hands to do the filing...... clamp control arm to a table or stable
surface....

Also put a chamfer on the bushing hole where the pin goes and on the outside edge
so when you slide the lower control arm into the tabs on the frame it fits in an out of
the frame with out having to use force....

And again make sure the pin is longer then the bushing so the arm will move
freely.....but not loose so it slides back and forth in the tabs on the frame...... no
slop....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 08:52:44 AM

One of the subjects that Tom K and I discussed was to make sure the bushing holes
are parallel to each other.... especially if you have changed or knocked out the
bushings and replaced them with others....

That is one of the reasons you use a reamer to size the hole for the pin......because it
doesn't relocate the hole....it just makes it bigger because when you press in the
bushings the tightness of the bushings will make the hole a bit smaller............. but it
is very important to put the lower control arm on the frame attachment points to
make sure the lower control arm moves thru it's travel nice and smooth with out any
binds...... which would be the case if the holes were off center.....

I suppose you could use a straight shaft to insert into the bushings and see how it
lines up with the other bushing...... slide it thru and see how the lower control arm
rotates on the shaft.....that is if it's straight.....And having a straight 7/8" rod laying
around the garage is not likely.....

The main thing is that you have no binding action on any componet of the
suspension..... this is one good reason to go to Heims rod ends..... because
mis-alignment is not an issue....

I'm sure if you wanted to send them back to Tom K ...he would be happy to use their
special tools to do this.....but if you are like me...and in the garage and wanting to

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assemble something ...then you look at other alternatives..... and our way has woked
out great..... Craftmanship that's what it's all about anyway....

So now we have the lower control arm ready to assemble

Pins fitting into the bushings........ control arm moves freely thru it's travel.....
spherical bearing seated in the lower control arm....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:00:04 AM

Now we have to make sure the nut holding the bearings and hub together is torqued
to 250#ft lbs....

By the way it's a 1 5/16" nut..... nice big one .....

I think they have since gone to a smaller one....but the big one is the one we have....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:04:21 AM

Notice that we have the Aluminum jaws straped on to my vice..... you need
that....other wise you would tear up the rotor .....and you need the leverage of the
rotor to hold the hub so it doesn't turn....

The vice by it's self is not strong enough..... because the rotor will turn.....especially
at 250#......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:14:27 AM

But now you'll have to stick a large screw driver in one of the slots of the rotor to
prevent the rotor from turning at 250#lbs of torque.....

Now was a good thing I've been in the gym..... cause when you are pulling on the
torque wrench and trying to hold the screw driver.... you will have to grunt..... and
grunt .....and grunt.....and sneek up on the 250#.....

Also it helps to have a torque wrench that you don't have to read ..... it will tell you
when you get to the determined amount of torque..... Clicker or Digital type....

The good thing is that on the other rotor the vanes are going the other way and you
can stick the screw driver down into the table and use two hands on the torque
wrench.... Yea.....no more grunting.....

One time I was pulling and pushing so hard I started passing gas........don't you just
love working in the garage alone.......all kind of funny things happen when you're out
there by yourself.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:17:46 AM

Now that you have torqued the hub nuts ..... we need to mark them so we can see if
it ever moves..... or loosens up....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:26:51 AM

Before we start assembling the upright..... thought I'd show you the better idea.....

Taper pins are great for street cars since you fit them together and they wedge them
selves together.......

But with performance cars you will want to move the lower control arm down or up
depending on what you want to do with the Instant Center point......

And changing the Instant Center point will change the Roll Centers ...which is very
important and will make a difference on Turn in ability of the car.....

So what we will do is to press out of the spherical bearing the taper pin .....and press
in a sholder bolt like this ...then we'll drill out the hole in the upright to match the
size of the shoulder bolt.... then we'll use a spacer between the upright and the
spherical bearing to move the lower control arm and change the Instant Center
location of the suspension.... 8)

The ride height of a car is very important and should be exactly like the suspension is
designed for..... and then you start at the designed height and change the Roll
Centers to make the car do what you want it to do....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:31:37 AM

Assemble the ball joint or spherical bearing......

We are going to try a rubber grommet instead of the foam washer that comes on the
car......

The foam washer just doesn't seem to get it.......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:35:18 AM

Always use Anti-seeze..... when you are mating to dis-similar metals..... and
remember Anti-seeze is not a lubricant....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:42:44 AM

Install the taper pin into the upright and slide the washer and nut on as you are

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sliding the taper pin into the upright....

There's not much room for a wrench so that is why you use a Jet Nut.... it's a
Hi-temp locking nut that is smaller in diameter and is used in jet engines...... sold at
Aircraft Spruce.....

And all we could do is use a open end wrench on the nut and tighten as much as we
could....right before the jaws of the wrench start to open and slip off..... then it's
tight....

Time will tell if we have any movement between the taper pin and the large nut
holding the hub together.... I doubt it ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:46:51 AM

Do the same with the upper control arm...... assemble and anti-seeze and insert into
the upright....install washer and Jet Nut..... and this one you have a little more room
...I could get a box end wrench on the nut....and again tighten as tight as you
can..... these taper pins are a 3/4" bolt ....and with a hand wrench you can't over
tighten them....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:48:53 AM

On the top one we are going to stay with the foam and see how it does....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 09:53:16 AM

This photo is not in focus...... but you can see the upper control arm attached to the
upright.....

But more importantly ...... you can see the piece that the upper control arm attaches
to is the piece we will change to change the Instant Center location for the top
control arm ....which will change the Roll Center.....

The art of changing the Roll Centers is very important in the scheme of things to dial
in a chassis...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 10:04:03 AM

Now that we are ready to install the suspension on the car there's a number of things
to do....

One is if the control arm slips up into the tabs and the bolt holes line up.... great......

If it doesn't ...rather than fight it.... just tap out one of the large washers..... or
both.... and slid the control arms back up into the tabs and then re-install the large

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washers.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 10:13:40 AM

The other thing you want to do is to take a die grinder with a 1"X 1" flapper wheel
and clean up all of the edges where the control arm slides into the tabs.....

Also clean up the holes themselves..... the bushings on the heims want to catch on
the edge of the hole as they are sliding in the tab....

So clean up the edges and holes especially the small hole for the bolt to go thru....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 10:20:14 AM

Install the suspension and move it thru it's travel up and down many times to make
sure you don't feel a bind....

Also install the steering arm and the washers so that you have a nice fit .... not a
force fit with the washers and not a fit where the steering heim will move up and
down in between the steering arms....

Also notice the steering arms and contor of the upright....very stong.....

In the back ground you'll see the threaded rod that establishes ride height for the
suspension..... now you can see the angles of the control arms and see where the IC
is and RC.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 10:23:21 AM

Now you can see the massive Brake mount and how it's contored into the upright ....
no flexing there....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 10:28:22 AM

This is a better photo of the upper control arm and how it attaches to the upright.....
and how we'll change the IC and RC by changing the piece that is attached to the
upper control arm.....

And this get's the suspension back in a position for us to bump steer the front....

That's when all of this started ..because the steering arms were in the wrong place
and needed to be moved.....

So we'll get started doing the Bump Steer on the front an see what all we have to do

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to get it right and then pass on the info...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 09, 2005, 08:04:49 PM

Jim

We are thinking of a couple of things......Carbon fiber chin spoiler and also a spliter in
the Air intake for the radiator....

Also louvers in the hood and maybe something in the back of the hood.....

Just not sure.... will wait untill we get to that bridge ....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 12, 2005, 06:58:00 PM

Well we got the suspension all back together and were rather excited about checking
everything out....

Set the Castor.....


Set the Camber....
Checked the Camber gain....
Set the Toe In.....

And everything looked great..... so

Now it is time to pull out the Bump Steer gauges and set it all up.....

And we did....just like before.... The plate .....The stand.....The dial indicators....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 12, 2005, 07:05:46 PM

With the suspension at 2 1/2" of bump .... I though I'd take you guy's thru the math
one more time.....

As you can see in the gauge ...you can read down to a half of Thousands if need be
and it's very repeatable.... which is very important..... because you need to know
your measurement are exact..... and it'a very good way to check your work....

Here we are reading the front gauge and it's reading about .406" to .407" thousands
of Inch from the 1" mark..... and the the word "IN" is next to the reading.....meaning
the Plate has moved in a Toe In direction by .407"of an Inch......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 12, 2005, 07:15:59 PM

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Keeping in mind that the suspension is at 2.5" of Bump and we are taking the
readings....

This is the rear gauge reading and it is reading .058" In.... meaning the plate is
going away from the dial indicator.....

With both of the readings going in you would Subtract the rear reading from the front
and you would get a total reading of .348" In .... Meaning the plate has turned
in.....or has Toe In of .348" which is allot....

Remember the standard is .030" per Inch of travel ...... but fine tuning you can get it
like we did in the rear where I think we covered 4" of travel with about .030" to .040"
total.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 12, 2005, 07:26:40 PM

So if we look at what we got for our Bump Steer on the Front ....... it's Not
acceptable......

We go from .348" In on 2.5" of bump to ....... .165" out on 2.5" of droop.......

That's .513" of movement that the wheel will steer in 5" of travel...... :o.... That's a
Half Inch of movement.....

The best way to describe this is ...... your going down a road and you hit a bump.....
and without you moving the steering wheel....the car changes lanes..... If it's a right
hand turn and you hit a bump.... you drive into the ditch..... or curb or something
stupid..... and you didn't even turn the steering wheel.....

If you've ever had this happen to you ...it will wake you up instantly....and you'll
wonder what's going on..... then you'll try it again....and it'll do it again and you'll
know something is not right with the suspension...but you won't know just what that
is.....

It can be caused by many different things....and we'll get into that later....

Here's the first set of numbers we got on the new Morris Uprights....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 12, 2005, 07:40:33 PM

So now let's look at some of the things you can change to make the bump steer
better ....

1. Move the Rack..... moving the rack will change the arc of the steering arm and
have a change on the Bump Steer. Up and down and also Fore and back....

2. Move the Steering arm Heim up or down to again change the arc of the Racks arm
and change the bump.... this is usually just a fine tune for the major changes...

3. Change the Top of the upright so that the upper control arm is in a different
position for it's arc there by changeing the steering as the upper control arm moves

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in with more camber gain....

4. Change the location of the Steering arm on the upright..... it's very important to
have the steering arm on the upright in the right location....

In this set of numbers we changed the rack and lowered it by 1/8" from spacers that
were 5/8" down to spacers that are 1/2"..... these are the spacers under the rack.....

You can see that moving the rack 1/8" made the numbers worse...... but that's a
indication of how sensitive this adjustment is.... as small move will make a large
change in suspension geometry....

Now it goes from .473" In ...... in bump ...... to .275" in droop.......

Which is almost 3/4"...... now if you hit a bump..... the car would jump over a
fence....or another car if one was next to you.....

Obviously lowering the rack is not the thing to do..... but can we raise it enough to
make it work.... ???

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 12, 2005, 07:56:49 PM

So here we are with a suspension that wants to through us off the road..... not
good.....

And making small changes won't get the Bump Steer anywhere it needs to be......

What do you do..... well a coupld of things

We need to remake the top piece of the upright to raise the upright.... but in reality
that not always a good thing to do because you are also changeing the Instant
Center point which in turn is moving or raising the Roll Center.... And remember
concensus is that the Roll Center is the most important issue when dealing or
compromising all of the suspension adjustments......

The other thing that could be done is to move the Steering arms down on the
upright..... that way you could leave the Instant Center point and Roll Centers alone
and change them when you get to a track to see if and how much they have an
affect of control of the car....like turn in... But that means re-making the upright.....

So like any project we are at a stand still as to what will be the next move..... I'm
running our own computer program and changing many varables to see what is the
best thing to do...... and much of it has come down to exactly what we thought.....

Raise the upright .....


Lower the Rack.....
Lower the Steering Arms.....

That is what are program said to do..... Tom K and I will figure this out and move on
down the road.....

It is an important reminder for us .....and that is check and double check everything
you do and what other do.... not that anything is done intentionally...... mistakes just
happen and our goal is to catch those mistakes before they catch us..... and that

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goes for everything....

In the begining I said everything would be gone thru and disassembled and checked
to make sure when we get done the car will be capable of doing anything we want it
to do....and this is no different.....

I just hope it doesn't take us a long time to resolve the issue.....

As the world turns .... so do our projects..... and the good news was that My Wheels
came in at BBS after one year.... but at least they are here in country.....

I'll keep you updated on the progress of KMP 259

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 07:59:06 PM

Well while we are waiting on the uprights to finish the front suspension....

We thought we'd get started on the Rear Anti roll bar.....

It's been debated many times about even running a rear Anti-roll bar and we believe
you should run one..... if for no other reason in that it is easier to balance the car for
understeer or oversteer.....

The Springs and the Roll bar resist the load transfer and both do the same thing
....however, changing the position on the rear Anti roll bar is much easier then
removing the shocks and changing the springs..... and much quicker and at a track
you never have enough time....

We start off with a piece of Electrical Conduit and bend it up to follow the shape of
the back end of the car.....

Where we want to mount the Anti-Roll bar is in the C-Channel frame member going
across the back at the end of the frame rails..... there's enough room and all we have
to do is move the fuel tank straps over about one hole length...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:04:02 PM

Once we get the Conduit clamped up to the bottom of the C-channel then we locate
the arms out to the lower control arms ....

Then we locate where we would want to mount the Anti-roll bar to the lower control
arm....

This is for position only ... and we know we will have to raise the conduit up into the
c-channel which will locate the conduit up on top of the lower control arm..... then
we'll have to raise the anti-roll bar up half way between the half shaft and the lower
control arm...

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:10:04 PM

Looking at the Conduit from the back show a couple of things.....

One is we need to move the fuel tank straps inboard to be able to mount a Pillow
block at the end of the C-channel frame member...... moving the straps is easy
....just move the strap over the length of the bolt holes and drill another hole..... also
at the rear of the strap you can slid the J hook over the amount you move the bolt
hole....

Another issue is now we can measure the amount of inches from the existing
clamped location of the Conduit to the center of the C-channel and that will tell us
where the anti-roll bar is going to locate in between the halfshaft and the lower
control arm....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:13:29 PM

This is a side view of the C-channel frame at the rear of the 4" frame rails.....

As you can see .....the Anti-roll bar will tuck up in there very nice and clean ...and
will be easy to remove and install once it's been all figured out....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:18:44 PM

Now you can see how we've bent the conduit to raise up over the lower control
arm.....

Since it's even with the lower control arm ....when we raise the conduit up to the
center of the C-channel we will have our 2" of height which will put the Anti roll bar
arm half way between the halfshaft and the lower control arm....

This also allows us to start figuring out where to put the heim on the bar and also on
the lower control arm

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:24:21 PM

This is another good shot to see how the Anti-roll bar will come across the back and
raise up to clear the lower control arms and then attach to the lower or upper control
arms......

If you have a bind in the travel of the Anti-roll bar then we'll have to switch from the
lower control arm to the upper control arm.....a longer link will have less angular
movement....

The only tough thing about doing this is drilling the holes in the Stainless
Steel....very hard material so you have to start with a very small bit.....3/32nd and
drill very slow with some lubricant on the drill bit...

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:31:22 PM

Now you can see the side view of the C-channel with the bend in the Anti roll bar
(conduit).... so it clears the lower control arm....

The idea of keeping the Anti-roll bar mounted low and directly to the lower control
arm is important to the amount of spring tension the bar will generate.....

We are hoping for around 150# per inch and then we'll use that to control the weight
transfer at the rear end of the car.....

One of the issues is coming off the corner and with stiff springs you'll never get off
the corner ...so using stiff springs to control roll is not a good idea because it adds to
the problems of getting out of the corner...

With the Anti-roll bar ....we can control the roll of the chassis and use some softer
springs to allow more bite to get off of the corner....

Remember stiffen and slide......soften and stick....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:38:49 PM

This show you how the Anti-roll bar is going to come up over the top of the lower
control arm an attach to the lower control arm.....

The interesting point is that we don't have to mount to the lower control arm..... we
could mount to the upper control arm ..... it will depend on the suspension
movement and if the Anti-roll bar causes any binding with a shorter link to the lower
control arm.....

The other issue is that you want the location of the heim that is attached to the
Anti-roll bar to be as short as possible....closer to the pillow blocks.......... so you
have more tension in the bar and then you add holes in the bar to reduce the lbs per
inch if need be.......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:44:04 PM

You want to look at the heim and the Anti-roll bar from as many angles as you
can.....just to see if you can remove any binding action before it gets in the
linkage......

So you move the heim around on the lower control arm where you think you are
going to mount the heim and see what angles it's at.....

Here we are just mocking up the bar so nothing is attached ...but you can see how
it's going to work out....

Obviously we are going to have to re-do the lower control arm ..because it's
machined out....and we would need a solid one to drill and attach a heim into the
arm....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:48:59 PM

Here's a view from the top and it show the way the bar will intersect the lower
control arm....

Now you can see what is going to happen when the lower control arm moves up and
down .... how much angular movement in the heims there will be.....

Everything looks good.

Half Inch Conduit is easy to work with ..... and it's about .700" OD so it simulates a
3/4" bar very closely..... which works out nicely to simulate a real bar....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 19, 2005, 08:58:17 PM

This is a good shot to show how it's going to work out once we get the bar bent.....

To me this make allot more sense then the way they originally mounted the bars
which was on top of the rear end ...right between the upper control arm pick up
mounts.....

Plus it's lower and attached to the frame at a good location.....

Now we just need to go make some Pillow blocks....for a 3/4" and 5/8" bar.... not
sure which one will work out the best..... our calculations say it will be the 3/4"
bar...because of the length of the anti-roll bar arms and the location of the
attachment points on the lower control arm....... much like figuring the wheel rate ....

We also have to get some Roll bar material..... you have many choices...... 4130 and
then have it Heat treated.....

Or you can get some 4340 Aircraft grade and all you have to do is just bend it .... not
heat treating involved ....it's all ready strong enough....and will work very good for a
Anti-roll bar.... that's what we are going to do.... order up some 4340 and start
bending it like our Conduit we used for a mock up....

We'll get that done and come back and and finish this part of the build...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: maurice19 on February 20, 2005, 05:33:30 PM

Hi Morris,

Let me introduce myself.


Maurice Lawrence, 62 year old new owner of Kirkham #318. Getting ready to install
Keith Craft Shelby in a week or two. A lot of torque involved. ha

Thanks for all your effort and teaching us with much lesser skills.

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I am thinking of changing to the larger spicer universal joints as you did.

The space at the pinion flange looks like it would be snug against the trans. tunnel.
Have you reinstalled the tunnel and if so, did it clear?

I sure like the idea of the larger joints

Thanks again,
Maurice

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 21, 2005, 06:43:09 PM

Maurice

Welcome to Gasholes...... Lot's of info is available on this board..... do take


advantage of the info....

Yes we have installed the tunnel ...and the driveshaft will fit..... there is a small
amount of opening up the way the tunnel fits on the rear bulk head...... we moved
that about a 1/2".... then we took out the driveshaft hoop...... we know the tube of
the drive shaft will be 3" ...the same as before.... and the larger 1350 series u-joint
will fit .... ..we are going to make another saftey cover that will tuck inside of the
tunnel..... that will be flat like the tunnel and mount to the frame ...... so instead of a
hoop we'll have flat 1/4" steel 4130 that will contor the inside of the tunnel so we
don't take up much space.... and will be much stronger to protect the passenger and
myself....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: maurice19 on February 21, 2005, 08:03:30 PM

Morris,

Thanks for the welcome and the quick reply.

I gather from your answer that You trimmed the bulkhead opening , probably on the
passengers side, slightly and modified the tunnel to match up.

Your idea for a more safe shaft enclosure sounds good also.

I have never owned an air tool system,of course I`m only 62 years old.
Is there a certain lbs. pressure I should buy to have the capacity to remove those
high torque bolts?

Maurice

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 21, 2005, 08:10:18 PM

Maurice

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We just use the Good one from Craftsman(Chrome housing)..... I think it has 600#
in reverse 1/2" drive.....to knock the nut off.....and works quite well.....

Got to have one or you'll never get the nut off...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 06:39:50 PM

Building one of these cars has it's ups and downs..... much like the business each
one of us is involved in.....

One day you are filled with great feelings and a job well done ........

Then there's the other days we all hate to talk about....where it seems like
everything we touch goes to the dogs...... and the only good thing is that that day
will end and you get to start another day which I choose to make it be a great
day.....

Well today was one of those Great days.... something I have been working on for
about a year came to my garage door today.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 06:46:49 PM

We started in Febuary last year making all of the measurement needed to get BBS to
make a set of Center sections for us.....

BBS was the wheel we used when we won all of our National Championships and I've
tested them many times and never had a hint of a problem.....

So getting these wheels was reminding me of some of the days from long ago.....

The sizes for the front are 9"X 18"

The sizes for the Rear are 11"X 18"......

Now before any of you Tradionalist say anything...... just remember that this car is
not a replica.... it is a Morris..... and I'm not interested in yesterday..... only in
tomorrow..... with memories of yesterday..... besides you have to make a product as
best as you can..... bar none.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 06:52:57 PM

Getting BBS to cast up some wheels for one guy was next to impossible..... but luck
was on my side.....

One of the main issues is that our Pin Circle is only 4.25" and thats small comparied
todays standards.....

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We had to give them every measurment off of the hub that there is.....

By the time we (Tom K) and myself did the drawings for BBS..... we might as well
sent them a hub......

Notice the holes ...... makes it easy to fit the wheel on quick and positive.....

See how they made the hub the same OD and the 6 pin hub ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 06:58:53 PM

Looking at the back of the wheel shows how much the center section is offset to
allow for large brakes.....

When you get to large brake calipers ..... they over hang the rotor and hub by about
2"......

So no other wheels would fit because they were all set up for smaller brake
calipers......

If you are going to go fast ..... you need big brakes...... and when you put the bigger
calipers on ...then you have this fit problem with the wheels.....

Well we figured it out and had BBS make a special center section for us.... and now
we have lots of room to run any brakes ....calipers or Rotors.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:06:02 PM

Looking at the front of the wheel the first thing you notice is that the spokes come
out to far for the knock off to go on......

Also having the spokes of the wheel out to the edge will allow us to go to a longer set
of control arms both upper and lower in the future if need be.....

Now we'll have to go to a Stainless Steel Nut from Accurate Machine Products.....
George Petrus....

They will be a 2 7/8" nut that will get torqued down to 200 ft lbs.....

We'll have to get a 1" impact wrench to take the nuts off..... it will take about 750#
to knock the Nuts loose and take them off....

But the nice part is that it will make for a clean apperance when mounted on the
car......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:09:59 PM

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Now you can see the front .....9" verses the Rear.....11".....

And how they are bolted together..... these worked out real nice because the center
section is mounted in the rear..... so you have the two halves ....Inner and Outer and
gasket then the center section is bolted in from the back side.....

Quality is second to none..... I don't know if any of you have ever experienced a 3
piece BBS wheel ..... but it is the best.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:14:02 PM

But even if you are BBS ..... we have to check the torque of all of the bolts...... and
valve stem.....

Now is the time to catch any over sight.....

It's hard to get the smile off of my face when we were torqueing the wheels.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:18:13 PM

Now we set the wheel up on the rear hub to see how it fits......

and it was nice and tight .....just what the doctor ordered.....

Then we start measuring the face of the wheel and it tucks up into the fender....

Also the depth of the nut and threads that hold it on the hub.....

And you just look at everything and see how it fits in general....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:23:06 PM

If you look real close you can see how the hub and the wheel hub match and mate
perfectly....

This is a results of all of the measuring and figuring we did a year ago.....

But it turned out exactly how we wanted it to...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:27:58 PM

Now we just see how it measures out to the fender.....

On these sizes of tires...... 315 X 30 X 18..... the side wall only stick out past the
wheel about 1/2"..... and the wheel sets inside the side wall about 1/2" ...... so from

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the edge of the wheel it sets 1" in from the fender.....

And remember we have a healthy camber gain...... .9 - 1 degree for every Inch of
travel.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:30:16 PM

Now we check the clearance inside the wheel around the fuel tank and suspension
...like the lower control arms...and upright.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:32:43 PM

The bottom of the upright has plenty of clearance.....

Another thing you don't notice is that we are using the standard Front brakes on the
Rear..... and we have plenty of room on the caliper and rotor.....

It's the front where things get alittle tight....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:35:36 PM

Here the edge of the wheel is 1.5" away from the fuel tank..... and the tire will only
take up about 1/2" ...... so we will have about an Inch of clearance....

It's great when a plan comes together.... we're not there yet but close.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:38:30 PM

Even where we contored the inner fender panel so I could get my seat back a little
further.....

Not a clearance problem there....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:41:34 PM

To me it's just a damn good looking wheel..... that's strong and light..... and will
perform like a winner....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:49:35 PM

And just to satisfy the curiosity of many of you....... ;)

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The Fronts in this size...... 9" X 18"..... list for $1410 each

The Rears in this size.......11" X 18".....List for $1508 each

The set is $5836....... and they will give 15% off which takes it down to $4960 for a
set 8)

This didn't bother me because I was not going to go on a track and take a chance
with a welded wheel.....

My satisfaction is worth the extra couple thousand dollars...... and if you've ever
been there you'd know what I mean.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 22, 2005, 07:54:44 PM

By the way ....if anyone wants to get the BBS .... do let me know and I'll help you
out with all of the drawings and back spacing..... Etc.....

They tell me that it takes about 3-4 weeks to make another set of Center sections
now that they have the forgeings.....

Like I said at the beginning..... it's been a great day and I'm excited because things
are getting done....

Morris.. ;) 8)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 23, 2005, 07:34:22 AM

Pat

The Motor..... is being done at Kinetics Racing..... Detroit..... very close to home

Three requirments were imposed on them......

FE Aluminum ....Shelby.....Edlebrock.....Victor ......normal stuff.....


Moldex.....Carrello.....Weisco....

Minimum 700 or more corrected HP......

Titanium Valves..... 8)

7500 RPM with Solid lifters.... :)

It ends up that Kinetics just built the motors for Rusty Wallace's son to win the
Snowball 500.....

And the flywheel looks like a piece of Swiss Cheese..... Yea ..... Double Plate
Strapped Clutch set-up

.720 lift on the cam..... and solids...... Nascar is running 10800 rpms...... we should
be able to do 7500.....

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Just a start... ;) ;) ;)

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 24, 2005, 06:57:05 PM

Morgan

This Techno Monster is slowly coming together..... tonight we bent up the rear
Anti-roll bars and got home and fit them up in the chassis......and we bent them
wrong........ ughhhhhhh

Got to go get some more 4340 and start over........ ughhhhhh

I have to do this stuff many times..... it's like I'm building 3 cars..... on everything
we do.....

Oh well ......off we go.... making more pieces....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 24, 2005, 07:37:15 PM

JP

That's why you run Titanium valves........ lower spring presures ..... lighter valves ....
higher reves.... no oil pump on the valve train...... and Solids...... no rollers.......
rollers are for.....

It'll take 1 hour on the Dyno to break in the motor.... to get the cam and lifters
happy with each other.....

I think it's going to do better than what we wanted in the HP department.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: TURK on February 27, 2005, 07:47:34 PM

This one is different.... Documentary in process.

I think if I get the release from Morris, I can sell this entire thread to Kirkhams for a
good price. Morris has shared more good information with good photos here in this
thread than Kirkhams have with all their customers..
That goes with ALL other manufacturers other than ERA by the way.

Did I tell you I copyright everything posted, and none of the contents of any of these
posts can be copied, transferred or used by anyone other the author and the
management of Gasholes without their consent? Without such a release one would
find themselves in the wrong side of the legal system.

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We are worse then Disney when it comes to enforcement on coprighted material..Our


attorney read everything ever posted.

Don't even THINK about it.. ;D

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:09:19 PM

Well we had to pull the Fuel tank back out to be able to get to the rear cross member
where we are going to mount the rear Anti-roll bar.....

After seeing where others have mounted the bar....we decided to mount the rear bar
low and to the rear crossmember going between the Frame rails..... it's solid and low
and will be easy to change bars....

Now that we've set up the tank for aeroquip lines it came out in about 20 minutes
taking my time and using my special transmission jack with a board mounted to it....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:12:43 PM

We start off with 4340 Military Spec...... 6 foot section in both 5/8" and 3/4" bar
stock.....

Thats a large 2" SS table that is perfectly flat...... very helpful when you are building
stuff....

And if you remember our Electrical Conduit is our guide....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:19:36 PM

Here's the bender we are using to make all of the bends.....

It bends the 3/4" bar stock very nicely and with out marking or scratching the bar....

Also the radus of the bends are allot tighter then the Electrical conduit bender......
which is allot better and looks much better....

Bending tubing or bar stock looks easy....and to bend the first side is ..... but then
when you have to match to other side and have it lay flat on the table.... different
story....

My friend Jimmy had this down to a science...... I thought we'd have to use a torch
....heat..... but he said it would take the temper out of the 4340......

So now we don't have to heat treat the bar stock......just bend it to the shape we
want and we have a anti roll bar....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:23:43 PM

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Here we have the finished bar all bent and ready to mock up into the chassis ....

We have a couple of spare bars here because we always make mistakes ....so get
some spares and the second time you do something you'll be much better at it....

They turned out great and the bends all will work where we want to mount the
bars....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:28:22 PM

Once we got the bars done..... we had to make some Pillow blocks...... mounts for
the bars to mount in....

One set for 5/8" bar and one set for 3/4" bar..... also you note how we machined the
blocks....

There's a "A" on one set of blocks and a "B" on the other set of blocks...... that
indicates a matched set ..... then look at the hole for the size....

And we'll set them up so the "A" and the "B" go the the outside of the car....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:34:51 PM

Now we have to line up the blocks in the rear Channel of the frame.....

First notice we have a piece of angle aluminum 1/8" thick going across the bottom of
the channel .....it raises the blocks so they are in the middle of the channel.....

Then we use the bar to make sure the blocks are straight across the back of the
channel.....

Then we measure the block from the end of the channel and locate them in from the
end of the channel about 3/16" from the end.... this will have the holes centered up
in the channel and you can get to the nuts on the back side to change the Anti-roll
bars....

So now we know the blocks are in line with the bar and flat on the channel and in the
middle of the channel....

We can start lining up the blocks.... to mark where the holes should be drilled.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:46:20 PM

Now you can see the angle and the bar.....

But more important..... notice we have put a dowel pin in the left on the bottom of
the block and the transfer punch in the top hole of the left block.....

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On the right side we have taken 2 each 5/16" AN bolts and cut the threads off of
them and are using them as a pin in the blocks so everything can be clamped in
place like it should be mounted when bolted up to the channel....

Then once everything is straight and the bar moves nice and smooth in the blocks.....
we take a hammer and hit the Transfer punch (the long shaft sticking out of the left
block on top).... this will put a mark on the metal exactly in the center of the hole.....

So then we pull out the bolt on the right side and insert the transfer punch and insert
the bolt into the hole where the transfer punch was...... then hit the transfer punch
agan marking the right top block....

Then do the same on the bottom hole on the right side ....take the bolt out and put it
in to the hole on top and insert the transfer punch into the right side block lower hole
and hit with a hammer again.....

Then go back to the left block and use a strong Magnet to remove the dowel pin and
insert the transfer punch and hit it with the hammer .....

Now we have all of the holes marked and the blocks haven't moved and the bar
moves nice and smooth in the blocks.....

Wow that was allot....but it works out great and everything is square and fits like it
should....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:50:25 PM

This is a close up of the Transfer punch and dowel.....

This way the dowel and transfer punch line up the blocks based on the bar going thru
the block.... and the holes must line up to mount to the channel....

Also cutting the two AN bolts and using them as a dowel is good because AN bolts
are much more prescise and closer to tolerance then a regular bolt from a hardware
store....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:57:32 PM

One of the things we noticed was that the C-Channel where we are mounting the
blocks is not flat .... they are angled a bit towards the front of the car......

With the bar mounted up in the blocks we could measure .020" on one side of the
block going from top to bottom of the block......

And this was the case on both sides of the car..... it's because the c-channel is
welded to the lower control arm supports....

So we just have to machine .020" off of one side of the blocks..... set it up in the
milling machine and have 0 on one side and .020 on the other side and cut it off....

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Then the blocks will sit flat on the channel and the bar will be pointed to the other
block..... not causing a bind in the motion of the bar...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:02:14 PM

Now that we have the Anti-Roll bar mounted .....we have to move the Tank
Straps..... or tank rails.....

So we just moved them over one hole....meaning we moved the straps over towards
the center of the tank ....

We just use the inside hole on the strap or rail as the outside hole now..... and then
drill another hole....

This moves the straps over about 1.5" inches and gets the straps out of the way of
the Anti roll bar blocks....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:04:03 PM

Now we have 3 holes where we use to only have 2 holes.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:10:07 PM

In case any of you are wondering ...... here is what it takes to drill one hole in the
Stainless Steel chassis....

We start with a 3/32" then move to a 1/8" then move to a 3/16" then move to a 1/4"
then move to a 5/16" then use a counter sink on the easy side of the hole to get to
and use this stepped drill stuck thru the hole and then we grab it in the drill by the
bit end and clean the part of the hole that you can't get the drill into....

Also with SS you have to use Cobalt bits and this magic honey....from Tap Magic.....

What a pain to deal with on the SS chassis .... but I suppose that's good....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:17:06 PM

Now once we put the Tank straps (rails) back on the car we noticed you had to
fumble around trying to put nuts on top of the strap..... right below the anti-roll
bar..... well that is not a good idea....

So we pull out our Time Sert kit and installed some Time Serts in the straps so all
you have to do is just screw the bolt in from the bottom and not deal with a nut on
top of the tank strap....

The Time sert kit is for repairing threads when they get stripped out ...... and is

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much better then a Heli-coil.....

Because it's a complete threaded unit and if you use a little lock-tight on the outside
threads ..it's in the parent material for ever and now you have steel threads..... they
come out with a easy-out....

This kit is 1/4" to 1/2" USS ..... you should use course threads in aluminum .....
cause it's stronger..... more metal to grab on to....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:19:36 PM

First you drill the hole the size for the selected hole size you want....ie...for the
3/8"time sert.... .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:21:51 PM

Then you counter bore the hole with the counter bore tool they give you in the kit....

This allows the Time Sert to be installed below the surface of the parent material....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:24:01 PM

Then you thread the hole for the threads that are on the outside of the Time Sert

Here we are tapping the hole for the 3/8" time sert.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:27:47 PM

Now you can see the Time Sert ..... they come in different lengths.....

Also you can see the tool you use to install the time sert into the parent material.....

We always use alittle blue lock tite on the outside threads and that helps lock it in the
hole....

You can also see the top of the time sert to see how it will seat down in the counter
bored hole....

Now you have steel threads and no nut on the back side to deal with....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:31:43 PM

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Now you can see the Time Sert installed in the parent material..... below the surface
of the material....

Much stronger then the heli-coil.... and locked in....

When the install tool screws the time sert in..... the time sert will seat....then you
just keep on turning the tool and as it goes thru the time sert....it will expand the
time sert into the parent material locking it into place....

Then just unscrew the install tool...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:34:46 PM

This is the top side of the Tank straps......where there use to be nuts to hold it on the
C-Channel.....

Not anymore....... just screw the bolts up into the tank strap and tighten...... no
more nuts to fumble around with....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:36:35 PM

Tank Straps are ready to go ..... with Time Serts installed....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on February 27, 2005, 09:41:00 PM

Now the bars are on their way to the Powder Coater.....and the straps need to be
lengthen....by about 3/4".... and then we'll re drill the hole on the back of the tank....

Now all we are waiting for is Tom K to make the lower control arm so we can attach
the heim to the anti roll bar and the lower control arm.....

We'll let you know when the bars come back from the Powder coaters and install
them....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on March 02, 2005, 07:57:13 PM

Quote from: Morris on February 27, 2005, 08:12:43 PM

We start off with 4340 Military Spec...... 6 foot section in both 5/8" and 3/4" bar stock.....

Thats a large 2" SS table that is perfectly flat...... very helpful when you are building stuff....

And if you remember our Electrical Conduit is our guide....

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Morris,

What condition is the 4340? A? N?

Properly heat treated 4340 does not bend in the bender you have shown here.Â
Only condition "A" stuff will do that.

I think that you may wish to look into heat treating your bars.

I could be all wrong here, but every bar that I have made from 4340 needed heat
treat to work. In a "A" condition, they would take a set.

Just like what you did with the bender.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 03, 2005, 04:58:32 AM

Richard

Thanks for Noticing that..... I'll have to look at the paper work we got with the
bars..... but you're probably right.... they're probably "A"....

When we were bending the bars.... I thought it was very straight forward with no
surprises and also we over bent one of the angles and we just put it in a Press and
staighten out the bend..... ..... our offset was originally set to be 2"..... but that
ended up to be to much so we had to reduce the bends on the arms so the offset was
only 1".....

We'll find a heat treater and ask allot of questions....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 05, 2005, 06:24:46 PM

Well it was a busy week and we didn't have much of a chance to get allot done.....

But we did figure out that the Anti-Roll bars were not heat treated and they....like
Richard said ...need to be heat treated.....

So we started looking around to find a Heat Treating vendor...... not an easy task.....
and after asking many folks and making allot of phone calls ....... we came up with a
Machine shop that sent out work to a Heat treatment plant everyday......

Then we found out that the Machine shop was only a couple miles away from the
house...... Oh man ...it's amazing how problems go from impossible to easy to fix
with a little bit of cummunications......

Any way we dropped off the bars and they will heat treat them to a Rockwell "C"
40..... you have to give them a range ..... "C" 38 to C 42 is what we said....and they
will shoot for C 40....

Also we learned that you can request that they support the bars in the furnace on the

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rack so that you have minimum movement of the bends or straight sections of the
bars.....seems if they hang the bars on both ends and you heat it up to 1550
degrees....it will bend in the middle....so you have to specify the support so they
don't droop or bend or move in the heating process....

So then we went back to the mounting blocks of the bars....and took off .020" inch
off of one side of the bottom Pillow blocks because the C-channel is slightly bent
towards the mounting point of the lower control arm.....

This straightens out the bar going across the C-channel so there is not a bind in the
bar because the Pillow blocks are angled out instead of them being flat....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 05, 2005, 06:28:01 PM

Then we mounted the blocks up in the C-channel and found it very cumbersume to
deal with nuts and washers in a tight area.....

So out came the Time Sert box again and we made a Nut plate that matched the
block and would clamp on the other side of the C-channel

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 05, 2005, 06:31:36 PM

This was a great idea because it's easy to just slide it into position and thread the
bolts in and then tighten.....

No nuts or washers to deal with and especially no wrenches to deal with ...

Just screw into the Nut plate....

It's made out of 1"X .5" aluminum bar 2024 T351..... easy to work with and strong...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 05, 2005, 06:34:06 PM

Here you can see how it slides into position behind the lower control arm rear
mounting bolt and heim.....

And see how everything lines up.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 05, 2005, 06:40:48 PM

Now it's mounted and when we get a fuel tank behind it we will have plenty of room
to remove the bolts and change the Anti-roll bar when we need to .....

Also it's a very low and strong position which is where a Anti Roll bar should be
mounted ....

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And with the Tank straps mounted in Time Serts you just support the tank and drop
the straps down and them remove the bolts on the pillow blocks and out comes the
Anti roll bar.....

It's kind of like the finding the Heat treaters...... it's a difficult task until you do it
....and then it's not so tough....

Things are always moving forward just not as fast as you want them to.... we'll see if
we can push things more this week....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 03:41:35 PM

While I wait on Tom K to finish up the modified uprights ....... and I was out on the
road for a while .....

We got back in the garage and started checking the Anti-roll bars and found out after
we heat treated and powder coated them they had to be re formed again..... so off
they go to the press and we can get on with the other things we have to check
on......

Such as the Nuts we just got in from Accurate Machine Products..... George
Petrus...... I stopped by to see him while I was out in Los Angeles and spent some
time getting to know what and how he does things......

I've found it better if I can look a person in the eye and talk to them about the
product they produce to make sure we are on the same page...... sometimes you
aren't and then you just waste time.....

George and I were able to communicate and I appreciate all of the suspension pieces
he is making for the original suspensions...... good for him .....

But what I really wanted was some Stainless Steel Knock-off Nuts...... ......

And George was able to help me out..... especially since our wheels have the spokes
outward of the center hub and this is so the center spokes don't hit the Brake
Calipers.....had to have the big brakes.....

Well because the spokes are outward ....then we can't use a regular Knock-off.......
so we must go to a Nut.....

But now that we have them ....they look good with the wheels and will be easy to
pull a wheel off and on....

But we must go thru the checks to make sure they fit and will tighten properly....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 03:44:58 PM

The first thing we must do is to mark the Nuts ..... Left or Right.......

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It takes to long to look at the threads and figure out which side of the car they go
on......

Letter punches work great even in Stainless steel....

By the way ....these are some Quality Nuts....... no pun intended.....they are made
with precsion.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 03:48:29 PM

Then we face off the sides of the nut so we can drill a .050" hole for the safety
wire.....

You have to do this ... just so you can start a hole thru the corner of the nut.....

And you have to face off the side where the drill is coming out..... so the drill bit
doesn't catch one of the sides and break off in the hole......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 03:54:12 PM

Then drill the nuts....... drilling Stainless Steel is a pain ....because you never know
how things are going to go.....

If you look at the nut on the left....we didn't face it off and you can see as the drill
exits the nut the surface is on a angle.....well this angle will catch a flute of the drill
bit and snap the drill bit off in a second..... then you have a real problem......

We drilled 2 this way and broke a drill bit .....and spent the next 3 hours trying to get
the bit out.......

Then we started facing off the nut on both sides and it drilled just fine.....

Remember we are drilling into Stainless Steel with a .050" carbide drill ..... very
small and will break very easy....

Just go slow and take your time.....with lots of liquid....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 03:57:44 PM

The next thing we do is to measure the angle of the surface that will be contacting
the wheel.....

We don't want any surprises here.....

They should be the same and they are.... especially since we sent BBS one of the
Nuts in the process of building the center sections of the wheels....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:01:18 PM

Measure the angle on the wheel ......

Then fit the two together and see how they fit...... how deep does the nut go into the
wheel.....

How does it feel in the wheel.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:04:34 PM

While we have the wheel and nut on the bench......

The next thing we do is to coat the nut with Copper Anti-seize....... cause we can see
it...... silver is very difficult to see with SS and Aluminum.....

A nice even coating of Copper Anti-seize around the surface of the nut

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:08:15 PM

Then we set the nut down in the wheel and seat it with a small rotation ...

Then we rotate just a small amount and lift the nut up out of the wheel.....

This should leave a pattern on the nut and on the wheel.......

What we want is for the nut to contact the wheel with as much surface as possible
and be even around the wheel and nut....

And this patter on the nut is very good...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:10:40 PM

Now look at the wheel and see if the pattern is even around the wheel......

And it is ..... and we are getting a nice wide pattern which will clamp the wheel on
the hub with significant strength....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:14:26 PM

Clean up the nut and the wheel and then we go to the car.....

Anti-seize the threads on the hub so the nut can not gald up on the hub..... boy that
would be a disaster.....

Install the clean wheel on the pins and seat against the hub........

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:17:47 PM

Again ...coat the nut surface that will touch the wheel with Copper Anti-seize ....nice
even coating and install the nut up against the wheel.....

Tighten it hand tight

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:21:13 PM

Keep moving the wheel as you tighten the nut...... as the nut clamps down on the
wheel it will make another pattern for us to inspect.....

But you have to tighten the Nut as tight as you can by hand ..... untill you eliminate
the movement in the wheel and the nut is clamping the wheel tight....

If you don't get it tight...then the pattern will not show....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:24:06 PM

Now back off the nut and you will see a pattern on the Nut and on the wheel.....

Again you are looking for a nice even texture of Anti seize on both surfaces.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:26:58 PM

Also check out the mating surface of the wheel.....to make sure you are getting good
contact with the nut.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:30:02 PM

Here's a good photo of the nut off the car and next to a clean nut .....

Shows the pattern and the even coating around the nut...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:32:26 PM

And here's the pattern on the wheel when the wheel is removed from the car.....

Again nice and even and mating all around the wheel....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 04:41:45 PM

Once we get all of the nuts fitted to each wheel ...then we assign the nuts to those
hubs and wheels.....

It really doesn't matter if they get swithched around.... but I'm very pickey about
how things go together and have only had a few DNF's in my career and I believe it's
because we pay attention to details.....

Another thing is that we will torque these nuts to 250# ft lbs..... and when they run
for a while it will take about 500-600 ft lbs of torque to get them off .....

So that means we need to go get a 3/4" Impact gun that goes up to about 1200 ft
lbs of torque..... that should knock them off..... that is one reason we like the
Stainless steel Nuts.....

The size of the Nuts are 2.75" which is standard for the race sockets used by many of
the Race teams in all of the different racing series..... the threads and angles are not
....they are special to the Cobra hub .....

Hope this helps

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 08:41:50 PM

TC

I think you are right..... a Can Am ..... And if we can get the front end wider ...we
will have a Can Am car....

We think we will try a trick that Mike McCluskey told me about...... where you cut the
end off of the 4" frame tubing and shove a 3 3/4" tube inside the 4" tube..... Mike
said it worked just fine to stiffen the chassis......

It's just tough hammering a 10' long piece of tubing inside another piece of
tubing..... but can be done.....

We are using a 496" motor....... and peak power was at 7250 rpm..... 720 hp..... the
Titanium valves are helping the rpms and the dry sump and valves take allot of load
off the camshaft..... Mech by the way..... just like the guy's in NASCAR....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 08:45:36 PM

TC

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When we went to drill the corner of the nuts...... we had to creat a flat spot for the
drill to drill thru the corner.....

That's called facing off that small section of the nut and that is done with a End
mill...... just run a end mill in the side of the nut and you will have a flat place to
start drilling a hole.......

And we found out later that we needed to do the same on both sides of the nut.... so
the drill exits thru the nut on a flat surface so you don't break the drill bits.....
PIA.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 20, 2005, 08:54:41 PM

Foosh

We is a buddy of mine that is one of the best fabricators in the business.....


especially when you get on a Milling machine and then just fabricate stuff...... he's
one of those guy's that does work for allot of Race teams here in Chicago and
Wisconsin....

Jim Quinn, Chassis Services ....just a friend that goes way back when we raced
together many years ago....

My Idea's and drawings and his metal work.... and we do it together.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 21, 2005, 07:50:48 AM

Actually ..... I decided to not use any safety wire and my buddy Jimmy ...... took the
nuts and said he'd drill them out right now........

I'm not a big believer in the safety wire..... I know if I torque the wheel on the car it
will never come off..... torque to 250#...... because it will take a ton of power to
knock the nut off.... we have actually used a 1" torque wrench to measure the torque
to remove one of the nuts when you torque them to 250#'s.....it took 650# to loosen
the nut.....so safety wire isn't needed...... Ran for 2 years that way.....

But Jimmy wanted to drill some holes..... and then when he broke the .050" drill bit
he had second thougths.....

Pat

I'll try Anti freeze..... we've been using the special Magic Tap Honey for drilling into
the SS

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 28, 2005, 08:03:08 PM

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This something you have to do not knowing if it is needed or not.....

Clutch pedal stop...... like the Throttle pedal stop ..... you can't be deciding whether
you have pushed in the clutch pedal far enough...... you just want to push it in and
shift gears......

Well like Turk is going thru the motions of getting a master cylinder to match his TO
bearing .... once you do that then having the clutch pedal stop at the right time and
not push the TO bearing out past the seals is the opposite issue to not having enough
travel in the TO bearing......

So we have made a clutch pedal stop and this is what it looks like....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 28, 2005, 08:12:42 PM

This is a shot from the top of the pedal..... what you see first is the threads of the
bolt holding the pedal pad to the arm...... under the threaded bolt is a washer welded
to the head of a bolt.... and a locking nut

Then screwed into the pedal arm.... Mac Tilton taught me this back in the seventy's
and it has been something on every car we have built.....

In the heat of action you don't have time to think about anything but staying on the
track..... you don't even look at the gauges..... you don't have time for that.....

So we make stops so the driver just reacts and doesn't have to think....

And most race cars use a larger Master cylinder so we can move allot of volume of
fluid fast.... we don't worry about how much power it takes because it's not that
bad..... and allot of the time we are shifting with out the clutch anyway....

It's hard to get in the pedal box and take photo's ....

We have two bolts holding the pad to the arm and another bolt hole in the between
the two mounting bolts that we can screw another bolt into from the back side to be
the pedal stop....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 28, 2005, 08:16:07 PM

The first thing you do is put the pedal on the floor and figure out the angle of the
pedal arm to the flat floor....

In this case it was 20*degrees...... so that is the angle we will have to weld the
washer on the head of the bolt....

Here you can see the pedal and pedal stop and lock nut ....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on March 28, 2005, 08:19:28 PM

I never said I could take photo's and this one shows.....

But more importantly is that you see the angle of the washer is flat on the floor....

All we did was to grind the head of the bolt on a grinder to 20*degrees and then
weld a fender washer to the head of the bolt....

And I'm sorry for the photo

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 28, 2005, 08:25:27 PM

Now we have the pedals set up..... Throttle stop on the throttle

And a Clutch pedal stop on the clutch pedal.....

Also notice the Brake Bias cable coming down to the balance bar on the brakes....

Now the driver doesn't have to feel how far to push down on the throttle or
clutch......

He just slams it down to the stop and feels the pedal travel and know that when it
stops the butterfly's are open all of the way and the TO bearing has disengaged the
clutch disc.....

Just a few more tips in the build...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 28, 2005, 08:39:44 PM

Jamo

The pedal stop has to be adjusted so the clutch disc releases and then stops.....

We like to push in on the pedal and try and turn the rear wheels ....and when they
turn we then go another 3 turns on the stop and that's about another 1/8" of push
rod travel....and this prevents the TO bearing from pushing out of the housing....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on March 28, 2005, 08:47:38 PM

TC

The drop box is a great idea and was the only way I could have gotten in the car....

Like you..... we're above average in size and my 12's fit very nicely..... in fact the the

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seat has all of the padding taken out and looks like ...... but it is comfortable and the
dropped box is comfortable.... and has allot of room..... the only thing I need to
figure out is some sort of dead pedal ...and haven't done it yet but it needs to
happen....

If you look closely at the pedals..... they have many holes in them.....that's so we
can move the pads anywhere we want to .... and so we can adjust the pedal pads
sides ways or up and down and should be able to get them set exactly where we
want them for my feet to move around.... but it still will be tight so we'll have to use
some racing type of shoes..... skinny shoes if we can find some...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 07:26:09 PM

It's time to get the TKO 600 out of the box and start setting it up.....

It's only the begining when you buy the TKO 600..... then you have to get all of the
other stuff as well....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 07:29:34 PM

We know the TKO 600 should work good on the street ..... however not sure how it's
going to work on the track..... time will tell ..... and change is a way of life....

The next thing we do is to check the tag and make sure we have what we ordered....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 07:34:46 PM

Notice the tag..... Serial # 00004 ...... sure hope it works OK.....

The next thing is to check the input shaft to make sure we have the short shaft.....

The short shaft is 6.5" long and the standard Ford shaft is 7.18" Long....

The good thing about the short shaft is that you don't need any adapters between
the Tranny and bell housing..... and that's good... less things to go wrong and shorter
should be stronger.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 07:43:28 PM

Take a good look at the input shaft housing to make sure the surface where the T/O
bearing is going to seat is nice and flat and that is for the Hyd T/O bearing that is a
slip on....

The T/O bearings come both ways ...slip on and a new input shaft housing with the

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T/O bearing all ready install as part of the housing.....

Either way works fine.... we like the slip on T/O bearing because sometimes there is
some mis-alignment between the housing and the bell housing and the clutch
fingers...... so the slip on will match up better....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 07:46:38 PM

After that we tap a 1/4 NPT pipe thread hole for the vent and install a 1/4 npt X -6
fitting for the vent line of the tranny....

Not much room so you have to use a straight fitting and then the hose end will be a
90* or 45* degree hose end...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 07:50:05 PM

Then we get a 1/2"NPT X -8 fitting for the out side of the transmission..... this will go
to the pump and then to the cooler and then back....

We just screwed the fitting into the drain hole on the TKO 600..... it was 1/2"NPT

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 07:53:19 PM

And the fill hole makes a good place to put the fluid back in the transmission......

Seems like it will squirt right on the main shaft and that's good to keep things
cool.....

The fill hole is all ready 1/2" NPT ...so all we needed was a 1/2 NPT X -8 fitting for
the return line to the transmission....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 07:57:20 PM

Next we need to grind down the original tab that mounted the transmission to a
cross-member.....

And here we just use the die grinder and 60 grit disc and then backed it up with a
polish disc.....

The material goes away very fast..... so just shape it....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:03:34 PM

Next we move to install the rear mounts for the transmission.....

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I must of sent Tom K many different type of mounts to try and after working with
many different idea's ..... I must say Tom K came up with a good idea to mount on
the torque tube mounts......

This put the mount on the back side of the cross member and we didn't have to cut
the frame.....

Now all you have to do is to weld some tabs on the cross member 4" tube to support
the rear of the transmission....

The mounts are much like the mount on the front of the Differential..... Urethene
type of material with a bolt going thru them and mounting in some tabs welded on
the frame.....

Good idea Tom K....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:07:59 PM

Right above the mount is the Neutral Safety Switch..... not going to be used.....

The mount will allow some flex in the tail housing so it doesn't break or crack.....

As much as these motors move around..... you have to have some flex in the
mount...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:15:04 PM

Now if you look at the right side of the photo and see the rubber plug..... that's the
way the transmission comes ......

Pull the rubber plug out with a pair of pliers......

If you were going to use the stock speedometer sensor it's on the other side of the
tail housing and is only a two wire..... Then you would leave the rubber plug
installed...

We are going to use a Autometer Speedometer and a Autometer Sending unit that
will allow us to calibrate the Speedometer for any rear end we use..... so you don't
have to be matching up gears and changing them all of the time.... it's in the
Speedometer ...the calibration and based on a fixed 2 mile drive .....and push a
button on the Speedometer.... for start and finish....Done....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:17:09 PM

This is the box the Autometer Sending unit comes in......

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:19:43 PM

This is what you get......

A sending unit ....... and a square driveshaft ......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:23:35 PM

Then what you need to buy is the drive gear and the clips.... both are separate
purchases.....

The part number for the drive gear is ..... C1DZ-17271-A .....gear......

I don't have the part number for the clip..... just ask for the clip to go with the
gear......

We bought 2 .....always need spares..... especially when it comes to these little


parts...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:27:17 PM

Now here's everything you need....

Autometer Sending unit/ Square Driveshaft


Gear
Clip
O-ring for sending unit housing
1/4"X 20 bolt about 5/8" long

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:29:38 PM

Insert the Square Drive shaft into the Sending unit ...... long end first..... so just the
short end sticks out .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:32:21 PM

Also install the O-ring before installing the gear......

Seat the gear all of the way down on the shaft and then install the clip to prevent the
gear from coming off .....

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This set up seems to work just fine....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:35:21 PM

Here's the hole where the rubber plug was originally installed.....

Inside you'll see the gear on the main shaft that will mesh with the gear on the
sending unit.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:39:16 PM

Install the Sending unit into the transmission and use the 1/4" X 20 bolt about 3/4"
long....

The 3 wires are

Red -12vdc from Speedometer


Black - Grn
White - Signal to the Speedometer from the sending unit...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:41:37 PM

Be sure to check the clearance between the Sending unit and the Tab we ground
.......

About .100" is fine....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:43:46 PM

Now we've installed the Transmission Rear Mount.......Speedometer Sending


unit.......and Vent fitting on this side of the gearbox....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:45:58 PM

And on this side of the Gearbox we've installed the Input and ouput fitting for the
pump and cooler.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:50:08 PM

This is one of the key ingredients to this or any gearbox.....

It's a Mark Williams Billet Transmission Yoke

It's a 31 spline made for the C-6 transmission

And is set up for the 1350 series U-joint.....

We had a discussion earlier about a spinning drive shaft sitting right next to you .....
not a pretty site if it ever comes apart.....

Yes it's expensive.....about $200 ....but so is my leg.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:52:23 PM

This is Mark Williams standard billet 31 spline Transmission Yoke

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:55:16 PM

This is the Yoke installed in the transmission.....

It was tight and you have to get the splines lined up just right and then it slips
together like they were made for each other..... perfect fit....

Also notice the size of the 1350 series u-joints.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 08:57:23 PM

This is a shot of the right side of the gearbox and yoke......

Also a good shot of the rear transmission mount.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 09:00:28 PM

These are the Mark Williams u-bolts that and 12 pt nuts that will secure the
driveshaft into the diff.....

The 12 pt nuts are smaller so you can get into to them to tighten .....15-20 ft lbs.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 01, 2005, 09:04:34 PM

Now we are ready for the shifter and T/O bearing.....

Red McLeod is making up a new shifter and should be out soon and the prototype we
saw was very high quality..... might make a difference in shifting at high rpm.....

We'll fit the T/O bearing up when we are ready to mate the motor and transmission
together....

Hope this helps those that were thinking about looking into a TKO 600....

There's just not much out there in the way of practical info on the gearbox....

Later
Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: HRJ on April 09, 2005, 11:52:07 AM

Morris...been looking forward to you getting to the powertrain! Quick question going
back awhile...your Mallory bypass fuel regulator...what are you doing with that small
vacuum port - taking a small line up to the carb?

Joe

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 09, 2005, 06:11:50 PM

Hi Joe

The vacuum port we will leave open and not connect up to anything..... it's really
made to give you more fuel pressure when you are in the wide open throttle
position.... and using NOS or forced air induction....

Connecting up to the carb is OK ... but just make sure you don't get to much fuel
pressure at WOT....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: TC on April 09, 2005, 07:19:32 PM

Quote from: Morris on April 09, 2005, 06:11:50 PM


... but just make sure you don't get to much fuel pressure at WOT....

Morris,

Did you play with fuel injected turbos at all in your past? I am switching from a

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mechanical injection set up to electronic on the 930. I have not decided yet whether
full sequential or semi-batch in tuning ability (yes I know sequential is better but
this IS a street motor). But my main concern is I know the regular twin 930 fuel
pumps can make more than enough pressure (CIS mechanical needs way more
pressure than full EFI), but my 2ndary concern is flow. Is there a neat way to check
fuel pump flow under pressure? DO NOT go out of your way to respond with nuances
fro my situation, just wondering how one could flow check a pump(s) under
pressure. Figured you might have done this before.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 09, 2005, 07:41:39 PM

TC

Just got back from Germany and my head is still foggy...... no sleep....

I don't have enough experience to help you out with the FI..... wish I did ....... spent
allot of time with the new FI on Harley's and with some of the early Bosch set ups.....
but never really got them to work the way they should have......

Wish I could be of more assistance ...... maybe check with one of the GT 3 guy's ...
I'm sure there are some teams down in your part of the country....

BTW all dyno's use flow meters to determine how much fuel you're using.... maybe
one of the big dyno guy's....can shed some light on the subject... ??? ???

Just get one of the flow meters and run the pumps and plumb the lines back to the
tank....and measure the flow..... check out a Gauge company...... Fisher Scientific.....
or someone like that....

Morris ??? ???

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:02:54 PM

Well we don't have the uprights or rear lower control arms or the Steering rack......
so we'll move on

We will have the motor this week and need to prepare the front inner panels for that
part of the build...

Here we have removed the 12 rivets that hold the inner panel on..... it just slides out
when the last rivet is removed..... very easy and makes it nice to get to the inside of
the motor compartment

We've installed the panel back on with Coleco's..... just get some coleco pliars and a
bunch of coleco's and drill out the rivets and install the coleco's so you can make the
adjustments or fab up what ever you need to.....the coleco allow you to remove the
panel as many times as you need to.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:07:37 PM

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The idea is to remove the inner panel any time you want access to the motor
compartment.....

So what we'll do is install Nut serts in all of the rivet locations and then we can just
use 8-32 screws to hold it together .....

We have to weld in some tabs on the strut rod and other places ....across the top
under the fender so we can just unscrew the screws to have the access..... and a tab
under the strut tube..... then we'll weld up the holes in the strut tube....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:11:36 PM

We've also added two new tabs to the fender to support the inner fender panel where
it comes close to the fender......

We don't like the inner fender panel just loose and not attached over by the
fender......

Anything that moves will create a problem later .....just don't know when.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:14:39 PM

You can see the new tabs we added up in the right top corner .....

These will support the inner fender panel and prevent any moving around of the
panel

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:18:25 PM

This is a shot inside the fender to show the tabs ..... they are just epoxy'd to the
fenders....

We like Devcon for Aluminium or actually JB Weld.....is better because it can handle
600*degrees..... we went with the JB Weld..... and just epoxy'd them to the fender
using the inner panel and coleco's

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:21:58 PM

Now the inner fender panel has support on all sides....

There's 14 rivets now ...but we'll convert them into Nut-serts so the panel will come
out easy and allow us access to the motor compartment

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:26:49 PM

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The best part is when the inner panel comes off...... it's like the door just open up....

You can reach and get to everything you need .....and it makes life allot easier and
accessable

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:30:21 PM

Notice the tabs mounted on the top and side of the fender......

Also look how easy it is to get to the wiper motor or brake cylinders or exhaust when
we get to that point...

The only way to go to work on the car....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:35:21 PM

Good shot of the back side of the tabs mounted to the fender....

All you do is mount the panel and then drill a 1/8" hole in the tab and then hold it up
to the panel where you want it and mark the panel and then drill the panel ....then
put the tab back up and insert a coleco thru the panel and the tab...... make sure it's
in position where you want it ....then epoxy it in place using the coleco to hold it in
place ....let it sit over night then start drilling for the Nut serts.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:37:21 PM

The front panels will not need to come off as much as the rear panels .....so rivets
will work out just fine there....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:41:54 PM

The opening and access on the passenger side is important because that's where
we'll have the Dry Sump system and we'll need to modify the panel so not to interfer
with the Dry Sump pump .... so accessablity and ease with which to get to the
system is very important....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:46:33 PM

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Now once the tab is mounted we'll start doing the Nut serts.....

First thing is to establish what size you want..... we are going to use 8-32 screws...so
we'll use 8-32 nut serts....

Then the chart tell you that you need to drill a 1/4" hole for a 8-32 nut sert.....

So we drill a 1/4" hole in the tab.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:50:07 PM

We like to use the Nut sert in Sheet metal as long as it's .030" thick..... and Time
serts in Thick Aluminium....

Here we see the Nut Sert tool along with the parts that make up the tool....like the
allen wrench and the allen screw and the mounting flange..... and the nut sert ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:51:37 PM

Now we have the Allen wrench installed into the tool

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:53:13 PM

Now the Nut sert is intalled on the Allen screw and flange.......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 04:55:04 PM

Now the Allen screw is installed on the allen wrench and the nut sert is installed on
the screw....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 05:00:14 PM

Now everything is locked inside the tool ..... remember this is for a 8-32 screw....

And we now insert the nut sert into the hole we drilled in the tab....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 05:05:47 PM

Here you can see how you insert the nut sert into the tab....or parent material and
then you keep it flat and perpendicular to the parent material......

Then you start turning the tool and it will break the nut sert at the ridge and start
wedging itself into the parent material.....

Tighten it untill it's tight and then back it out ....the nut sert comes up against the
serrated edges of the flange and that keeps it from turning as you tighten the
screw.....

Pretty kool way to put some threads behind something and not have to have a nut to
install .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 05:09:48 PM

Here you can see how it's wedged itself into the parent material and become part of
it.....

And the nice thing is it now has threads .......8-32 threads....so you can screw a
screw into the nut sert instead of a rivet .......

This will allow you to remove the panel as many times as you want to ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 05:14:38 PM

This is what it looks like from the front.....

We started with a 1/8" hole in the panel and tab and then epoxy'd the tab using the
coleco holding the tab in place .....

Then we came back and drilled a 1/4" hole for the 8-32 nut sert ....

Then installed the nut sert in the tab and now all we have to do is drill out the hole in
the panel to a 3/16" to accomodate the 8-32 screw.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 05:20:05 PM

Sometimes when we have limited access.....we'll use a wrench and small 1/4" rachet
to do the same thing that the tool does......

And as you go up to larger nut serts ..... it's just easier using a rachet then the
tool....

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Holding the flange is the most important part .... cause you don't want it to allow the
nut sert to move while you are screwing the nut sert tight into the parent
material.....

When it's all done ..... it's great to be able to put threads any where you want.....
because many time you just can't get to the back side of something for a
nut.....besides it's just easier to remove the bolt or screw from the front side and
remove the part....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 10, 2005, 05:28:22 PM

Gaining accessability to the motor compartment will now be much easier and with
screws instead of rivets it will be removable anytime you want.....

Especially for maintenance or cleaning or just plane checking things out.....

One thing I didn't mention is we will use Jiffy Tite quick disconnects on the Brake
reservoirs......so we can just un-couple the Reservoirs from the brake line down to
the master cylinder..... and remove the panel and then connect them back up when
we reinstall the panel.... will make for a easy panel removal....

Hope this helps someone about to get into their motor install.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: DaveR on April 19, 2005, 09:24:28 AM

Morris,

I read your thread about making a sway bar after your response on the other
Forum. I'd like to make one. How did you bend the arms and get them spline cut?
Where did you get the bar made? What metal is used for the arms?

Dave

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 19, 2005, 07:32:44 PM

DaveR

Are you talking about the Front bar or the Rear bar?

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: DaveR on April 19, 2005, 08:16:52 PM

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The front bar.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 19, 2005, 08:36:25 PM

Dave R ....

We ordered the bar from HRP racing.... http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm

And the Arms from them as well ...then we went thru the process .... making the
blocks and bending the arms and get the other stuff from McMasters Carr.....

And it's very good with the numbers ....about 500# lbs...... so should help the front
end a lot....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:12:45 PM

While Ron and the guy's are figuring out if water conduct current.......... seems to
work in someone is standing in a tub and you throw the hair dryer in......

We thought we'd introduce you to the Chassis guy's that do a lot of fab work for
us..... this is the we I refer to many times in the post.....

Jimmy Quinn Chassis Services...Waukegan IL.....

Notice the two cans of Mountain Dew.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:16:56 PM

I made the mistake the other day about whether of not they could weld .030"
Aluminum.......

The next thing they handed me was two Mountain Dew Cans welded together.......

It all happened in less than 5 minutes.......

Actually we are going to do some real neat stuff to stiffen up the chassis and
between Jimmy and myself ..... I believe we will be able to do something that should
have been done long ago......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:19:38 PM

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Mountain Dew should appreciate the fabrication work we are doing.....

Anyway not sure how thick a MD can is ....but.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:22:58 PM

Morgan mentioned the other day about the motor and everybody here shows their
motor.....

Well ..... our is under wraps...... but will be coming out soon.....

Once the car gets in Jimmy's fab shop things will start happening real fast.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:26:00 PM

I'm not sure if you noticed yet or not...... I always save the best stuff for last ....and
it usually the good things that just slip right out.....

I'm sure you can figure out what this is a photo of ......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:30:00 PM

We bought a Twin disc and aluminum set up from Mcleod...... and if weighted in at
about 50#lbs.....

I almost could believe my eyes......

So I was out in Los Angeles and stopped by to see Red and discuss the pro's and
con's of a set up like this one.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:33:30 PM

By the way the shims control the height of the fingers of the pressure plate....for
those of you that have one of these type of clutchs....

It's a double plate ....strapped clutch.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:39:15 PM

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What we mean is that the drive plate and clutch hub is strapped to the assembly

The first drive plate is strapped to the flywheel and the other drive plate is strapped
to the clutch hub.....

The purpose is to prevent the clutch drive plates from ratteling around while the
clutch is disengaged.....

If you used just the standard racing type of clutch that is a open face clutch the drive
plates would rattle up against the clutch plates and make a lot of noise......while
rotating.....

This was the set up Red came up with for the Saleen S-7 car...... and it is suppose to
work great....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 02:45:18 PM

We'll see how good it works on our car......

One of the things you may or may not notice is that the clutch disc is a solid plate
.....no springs..... which in normal situations is taboo....

No slipping of the clutch ...which means the car goes the minute you let the clutch
out......

Well that what you want anyway...... but if you look you can see the clutch disc is
quite thick and has a lot of material and will wear so that you don't have the
problem.....

Yes it will be faster then the normal clutch you drive .....

But not like a Tilton or AP that makes the car jump the minute you start letting the
clutch out....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 03:13:38 PM

The key is controlling the speed of the clutch hub clamping down on the flywheel is
to have the clutch disc that are thick like these so they can take some slippage and
not be a issue or problem....

By the way ....Red told me that Roush will buy two of his disc and replace the triple
plates with a double and use his disc...... just cut the od down to the size they
need......

The clutch is rated for 900 ft lbs of torque...... and we'll be putting out some 660 ft
lbs of torque so it should work OK..... at least we hope so....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 03:23:41 PM

The real key to this set up is the Flywheel.....

The whole set up weighs only 15#lbs..... as compared to 50#lbs for the Street Twin
with the Aluminum flywheel.....

And like most of you know from going from the steel flywheel to the aluminum
flywheel...... we just took another step beyond the box......

The ability to get the big crankshaft (100#lbs) spinning in the FE is a major deal.....
so if you can knock some 35# - 50#lbs off of the rotating mass you have made a
major improvement....and the motor will spin up real fast......I mean real fast.....

The bell housing will be next and we'll show you some of the tricks we've done to
help out in the future...

Hope it helps

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: bmalone on April 20, 2005, 03:31:15 PM

Thanks Morris, this is the part where it gets interesting for me. I am trying to decide
between an aluminum and steel flywheel. I have seen billet units that offer some
weight reduction vs. standard and that was one option I was considering. Still seems
like aluminum is the way to go.

For me, shedding punds is important. My motor is heavy enough, already. I need a
428 externally-balanced unit.

Look forward to see what you come up with for bell housing.

I was looking to use Final Drive as the vendor in San Jose to obtain all the stuff
(clutch, flywheel, etc.). Do you have any knowledge of this vendor?

Thanks.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Jim Crilly on April 20, 2005, 03:43:29 PM

Morris,
Taking into account all the things you've done to reduce the rotating mass; What are
you going to use to keep from over revving the engine?

btw, :P :P

I may not be able to define pornography, but I know it when I see it. ;D

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Foosh on April 20, 2005, 07:03:20 PM

Morris,

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What does that clutch flywheel setup cost, and is it available or just a R&D project for
you and McLeod? Looks pretty slick, or maybe that was the wrong term.................

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 07:29:04 PM

Bill

I believe the aluminum flywheel would be the way to go...especially the street twin
from McLeod...... but this set up is going to be used on the street as well as the
track...... and when you get the clutch set up and pick up the box ..... send me a
message on how much it weighs...... it completely surprised me the first time I got
one..... and I would hate to have one that was steel.....

Don't know anything about the vendors..... as long as they know the basics it's
fine.....Red has done most of the figuring out of everything anyway....

And the Bell housing .... well we have to use a big Lakewood...... because nobody
makes a small flywheel for the FE motor....and that sucks...... so we are stuck using
the large 184 tooth flywheel......

Let us know how you make out...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 07:33:49 PM

Hey Jim....

We will use the the organ between my ears to work the rev limiter...... and a MSD
just in case I have the brain fade..... it's set at 7400 rpm's and we'll us everyone of
those horses....

And the real prono stuff is yet to come...... at least the stuff we get into....

JP

You should be writing this stuff...... you're very good at describing illusions....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 20, 2005, 07:42:21 PM

Morgan

Red and I discussed this at length and when he mentioned that Saleen was using it in
the S-7.... I thought we should give it a try...... plus it is just kool and the motor
spins up so fast..... much like a ........ smaller type of motor even though it has many
cubes.....

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Foosh

The clutch set up is in his book ....but it's under the racing clutches....like circle track
..... they just took the idea of the racing clutch and put the straps on to reduce the
noise and rattleing when its dis-engaged and it was a great idea.....not sure how
durable it will be ...time will tell .....but everything is made to be replaced so each
time we remove the motor ...we'll inspect and replace what ever it needs....

And it cost around $1600 for the clutch and flywheel something like that....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: DaveR on April 23, 2005, 08:51:09 AM

Morris,

Amazing work you're doing, thanks for sharing.

I'm getting ready to order a front sway bar and I can't determine what size you
used. On one drawing it says 1" thru hole in the blocks, so with 1\16" wall on the
inserts that would be 7/8" bar, but later you talk about 450# with a 1" inch bar.
Which size should I buy? You also talk about 450# versus 550# based on hiem
attachment point. How do I calculate or estimate this for my application? Should I
attach to the LCA as far outboard as possible in order to dampen up and down
motion in the larger arc, or at some mid-point similar to yours, in a smaller arc?

One of your pictures shows a bag with hiem joints, and looks like a complete package
with all hardware included. Where can I get this?

Thanks

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 23, 2005, 05:24:21 PM

DaveR

The bar is a 1" bar that is 26" long and I don't remember the splines...the post
says........order it from HRP...... http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm

The bushings are bronze bushings and heims and all of the stuff is stuff we figured
out and just put it in a McMasters Carr bag.....

Look at the photo's and you'll see how we did what we did... it's straight forward....

The mounting point should be as far out as you can get or to where another bar was
mounted.... we chose where another bar was mounted....

As far as the calculated spring rate of the bar ..... there are formulas in all of the
books ..... that show you how to figure the rate of a anti roll bar.... and different way
to measure them..... check it out.

The Bar will have a wheel rate calculation figured on it just like the springs..... do the
same calculation.... but substitute the length of the attachment point of the anti-roll

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bar....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: DaveR on April 26, 2005, 09:29:11 AM

Morris,

Front sway bar again. Using the following formula, I get 429 Lbs for your setup:
(1,116,000 X Dia^4)/(Bar Length X Arm Length^2), so I think I'm close.
Unfortunately, my bar length will be 31, so this formula only gets me up to 360 lbs.
Is this enough? Also, when I compare the results from this formula against the Rate
Chart posted at HRP, I consistently get a 28.5% difference between their chart and
my calculation. If their chart is correct, then I'm only getting 280 lbs. I could install
a hollow 1.25" bar in order to raise the rate, but these are all just numbers to me at
this point, I have no track testing to guide me.

As far as arm length, a 10 inch arm would intersect with a point 5 inches from the
ball joint on a 13 inch LCA, and a 12 inch arm moves the point to about 2.5 inches
from the outer end of the LCA. Even though there will be a greater range of motion
at the 2.5 inch point, force drops exponentially to arm length, as you know. But with
the 1.25 inch bar I could probably go longer on the arm.

Any advice?

Dave

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 07:30:00 AM

DaveR

The reason you get the bad number at HRP is because they use Speedway's
calculator and it doesn't go down to a 26" bar..... and actual length for measure is
about 25".......

If you figure the effective rate of the anti-roll bar......and it's mounted in about the
same place the lower shock mount is......it's about 57%.....(ball park) so if you come
up with a 450# bar and arm combination....then you are only getting 57% of the
450#...or 256# effective rate of the bar......

Add that to your Wheel rate and you have the effective wheel rate of the front
end...... at 1*degree of movement....

Until you get the car on the road .... you won't know where your bar should be
unless you sit down and calculate all of the suspension points and then add in the
effect of the Anti-roll bar..... as far as the street .... you will never know if the bar is
right or wrong...... but the minute you go on a track and turn the steering wheel
....then you know....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: DaveR on April 27, 2005, 08:57:18 AM

Morris,

I tried to test the formula against HRP's table in an "apples-to-apples" fashion by


plugging values into the formula which existed in HRP's table. I used 33" for the arm
since, as you pointed out, there is no value smaller than that. Then I plugged in
various other bar length's and arm length's, with a constantly recurring 28.5%
difference. I am assuming, right or wrong, that because this difference was exactly
the same for all parameters provided by HRP, that when I plug in values, like 26" for
your bar, and 31" for my bar, the same 28.5% difference will occur, even though I
can't verify this because these values don't exist in the table.

Based on your advice, and additional readings on the other forum, I'm getting a
general sense that 1" is borderline for this application, and I can always decrease the
effectiveness of a 1 1/4" bar by lengthening the attachment on the arms, but I can't
increase the effectiveness of a 1" bar. The added bonus is that a hollow 1 1/4" bar is
lighter.

Thanks for helping me think this through. Again, amazing work you are doing.

Dave

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 12:40:23 PM

So we finally got our Morris Lower Control arms from the David and Tom K..... and I
must admit they came out much better then we thought.....

The good thing is that we have them thinking about strength and how it applies to
the suspension....

Here we have pulled the Upright and Lower control arm off of the car.....

Just the inner bolt on the frame....the trailing link bolt and the shock bolt and the top
upright bolt....

Then the half shaft bolts.......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 12:45:22 PM

While you have the half shafts off the car ..... you might as well paint them..... they
come to you all metal....and in the mid-west it's a bit on the humid side so all metal
must be painted or plated

By the way when we pull the half shafts off the car we always replace the bolts and
nuts on the differential hub of the half shaft.....

Partly because we round off the heads or round off the corners of the Jet nuts... or
something like that.....

Once we had a half shaft come loose on the track and it did a lot of damage ....so I
guess I'm not willing to take another chance.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 12:48:44 PM

Once we get the LCA and the Upright off the car..... we can then remove the Calipers
and get them out of our way....

You'll notice we have a Forged upright and I think now they are making the uprights
out of billet Aluminum.....

The key is to notice how tight the upright an the control arm fit together......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 12:52:51 PM

Here you'll notice we have to separate the upright from the LCA.....

The easiest way is to remove the counter sunk allen screws and then force 2
screwdrivers in-between the boss where the allen screws clamp down on the
shaft.....

This will open up the housing just enough to tap the shaft out of the upright......

The upright is the only thing clamping on the shaft ......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 12:57:33 PM

Here you'll notice we have removed the zerk fittings on each end of the shaft ....

And are using a Brass drift punch to tap the shaft out of the upright.....

We are using a fairly large hammer to hit the brass drift punch and once it starts
moving it goes fast and easy....

As you do this the shims on the side of the upright will fall out from both sides of the
upright.....

The shims were about .060" on each side of the upright....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:01:07 PM

Once we get the upright and the LCA separated then we just leave the screwdrivers
in the upright.....

We did hammer them in there and it worked out great to get the shaft out....

So just leave them where they are cause you'll be back installing the new LCA very
quickly.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:04:46 PM

Before we move on to the New Morris LCA's .....

I want you to look at the existing LCA just so you can come back and reference it to
the New LCA

Because there is a huge difference between the to.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:10:29 PM

As you look at the new LCA .... you start to see some differences..... one is the way
the trailing link is attached to the LCA.....

David did this and I believe he did a good job..... if it holds the trailing link is in line
with the LCA and if you remember back when we were doing Bump Steer ...it is
important to have the trailing link inline with the LCA....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:15:49 PM

The other thing that is most obvious is that the web that connects the trailing link
side of the arm to the rear leg of the arm .....

That webbing is real massive and strong .....not allowing any twist or movement of
the control arm under power.....

Also the size of the legs of the LCA went from 1.375" to 1.5"..... but in all directions
meaning it's a cube now....

We broke lower control arms on some cars so like everything you try to prevent the
mistakes you made in the past.....and just build them better the next time....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:18:43 PM

Here's a better shot of the way the Trailing link attaches to the LCA.....

It is much stronger then before and is located so that you can get rid of the bump
steer issue in the rear of these cars.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:22:09 PM

When you look at the webbing and the over all size of the control arms you really

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notice that you can put the power down an not be concerned if you go off track and
bounce thru some grass or weeds at speed .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:29:10 PM

Here's the two best reasons for this Lower Control arm....

Look at the area where the shock is mounted..... all of the weight of the car is
mounted there and the forces are great .... just turning a corner at speed will
generate many thousands of lbs on the shocks and then transfer to the LCA..... well
look how beefed up this area is .....

Now the best part.....

This Morris Lower control arm only weighs....... 1 pound more then the original.....

The original weighs in at 5# lbs....... and the new one weighs in at 6# lbs......

For one pound ...it's worth the security that you aren't going to have an issue....

And they are still lighter then a steel arm plus you can install ways to hook up a
anti-roll bar.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:32:34 PM

Like we were saying .... we installed two Time Serts in the LCA so we can attach our
Anti-roll bar up to the arm....and also make the adjustment softer if need be.....

We are going to try 5/16" heims on the rear ..... if there's a problem then we'll go up
to 3/8" heim for strength....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:36:44 PM

Here we are ready to start assembling the Upright and LCA ....

We have an assortment of shims ....between the upright and LCA....

We have O-rings...... 3/4"OD X 5/8" ID X 3/64" thick..... there's orings on each end
of the upright shaft.....

They seal the grease in and keep the dirt out.....

And of course the shaft.....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:44:03 PM

Here we've assembled the new LCA on to the upright.....

The only issue is when you are inserting the shaft be sure you use plenty of never
seeze in the upright and grease in the bushings of the upright..... Anti-seeze is not a
good lubricant..... so you want grease where the shaft and LCA have movement and
then Anti-seeze where the shaft is held in place....

Also the shims are a little tight to get them in place..... another screwdriver helps if
you just stick it in-between the upright and LCA and then ease the shims in place and
then take a punch and stick it in the end hole to line up the shims and upright and
LCA.....

Then strike the shaft with a Dead head hammer that is rubber..... so you don't hurt
the shaft......

Remember Brass punch to knock the shaft out and rubber hammer to install....... it
goes in easy as long as the tow original screwdrivers are still in place spreading the
upright.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:46:27 PM

Now we install the LCA and upright back on the car.....

Rear lower control arm bolt goes in 1st......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:49:01 PM

Next we install the Trailing link.....

Remember don't tighten any bolts .....just get them in and started and screwed down
but not tight....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:54:01 PM

Next we install the Half-shaft...... set it up against the hub on the rear end.....and
put 4 bolts in ..... just stick them in the hole.....

Then bring the upright up to the half shaft on the outside of the car and install the
nuts..... the bolts stayed in the hub of the upright......

Then lower the Upper Control arm down and position in place in the upright..... and
slip the bolt thru....

This is all easy if you have a scissor jack under the upright to position the assembly
anywhere you want with out having to muscle it around to get the bolts to fit....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 01:59:06 PM

Then you take the spring off of the shock and then remove the spring perch......

Then drill 1/16th holes in the spring perch so you can safety wire the spring up to the
spring perch.....

This serves two purposes..... one it prevents the spring from damaging the threads
on the coil over shock..... and ....

And two ..when you want to add another turn up or down just unload the tire and
grab the spring and turn it..... rather then take the tire off and get in there
...especially if your shocks are mounted upside down.....

Speed secret 286......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 02:04:53 PM

Now you see what I mean with the LCA and where the shock mounts.....

Nice and strong..... and can handle the load...... off road..... not that we are going
off road..... but we must be prepared.....

Also another nice thing is that the shock bolt screws into the LCA.... and no nut is
back there to hold .... so it will make it easier to pull the shocks and change springs
...... and just screw the shock bolt into the LCA....

One more thing is that we use a scissor jack and it is a must when you are going to
install the bolts and line them up to the holes..... other wise you might cross thread
the hole and then that's another story....

So get some way to control the raising and lowering of the suspension as you work
on it..... just for position

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 02:09:12 PM

Now we line up the Anti-roll bar....

The bar is not perfectly straight so one side will be higher then the other....

We ended up cutting some of the heim down so we could get them to match to some
degree..... one is always longer then the other.....

Then we just install the links on the bottom first and then adjust so the bolt on top
just slides thru the heim ....that will indicate the Anti-roll bar is not loaded......

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We'll do this again with a driver in the car ...... as it should be.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 02:12:59 PM

You always need to make sure the linkage is aligned so there won't be any binds.....

The spacing needs to be the same on both the LCA and the Anti-roll bar.....

Also you need to remove the spring and move the suspension thru it's travel to make
sure there is no binds in the various arc's involved with making it work.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 02:16:34 PM

Again ...look at the linkage and how it will rotate as the LCA moves up ...... and how
will the Anti-roll bar move ....

When we were planning this out.... we tried to get the Anti-roll bar and the LCA on
the same plane so the arc's would be the same.....and the bar would do the
movement and stay below the half shaft......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 02:20:36 PM

Here the spring is held in place with the Safety Wire.....and at the other end of the
spring is a rubber bumper and that helps keep it aligned when you set the car
down.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 02:23:13 PM

Remember you want to protect the threads of the shock and you want to be able to
move the spring perch quickly.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 02:26:47 PM

Lower Control Arms are mounted ....... Rear Anti-Roll bar is mounted...... and
Springs are mounted.....

After we go to the Fab shop..... Chassis Services ...... and get the welding done.....

The rear of the car is ready to go.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 02:29:50 PM

We really like the way these Rear Lower Control arms turned out...... and for 1
pound...... it's worth every ounce......

Hope this helps

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on April 27, 2005, 04:12:11 PM

Morris,

Good looking parts.

Are you sure that you have enough misalignment capability in the rod end on the
trailing link?

It looks like they are .500 rod ends. They only give you 10>12 degrees in your
type of mounting. (Clevis type)

Might wish to check at the extremes.Â

You know, for those times when you drop a wheel on corner exit. :D

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Pat on April 27, 2005, 06:52:23 PM

Good point Richard-

On my GT40 the clevis' do not allow enough misalignment as when the suspension is
at the ends of travel...not good. They have redesigned these parts to rectify that.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 27, 2005, 07:12:32 PM

Richard

Had the suspension move thru the travel and it does not run out of travel on the
heims.....

I agree ...I thought the same....but when I went thru all of the travel there was room
for more movement in the angle of the trailing link heim.....

The real key is the top control arm...cause it locates and controls the the angle of the
lower control arm..... the trailing link just keeps it stable and prevents movement in
a fore and aft as you know....

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I'm happy and as long as the heim holds up to the power ...we doing fine....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on April 27, 2005, 08:01:25 PM

Morris,

Good. I have had some problems with misalignment in the past. Can produce
strange failures.

If those rod ends are .5 X .5, then the ultimate static radial load is around 16k lbs.Â
If they are .5 X .625 like I use on the JBL then the USRL is in the 31k area.

I kind of like the .5 X .625 for your application. You have lots of power and sticky
big tires. The shock loadings can be quite high in that particular type of design.

One other thing from a prep standpoint. I would drop the bolt for the link in from
the top. That way if the nut comes off, you have a better then even chance that the
bolt will stay in.Â

(Don't ask how I figured this one out.)

Pat,

Have you tried to set the toe steer on the rear end yet? That offset trailing arm
design is a real bear to get correct. (and keep the wheelbase equal on both
sides.)Â

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Pat on April 27, 2005, 08:49:39 PM

Richard -

No I haven't...I should have the engine running this week- end, after that I will be
buttoning up the interior - then an alignment.

Do you have any suggestions?

Pat

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on April 27, 2005, 10:17:54 PM

Pat,

I think that Morris did a whole thing on rear toe steer.Â

And if I remember correctly, it was pretty good and applies to the trailing arm type of
layout.Â

That write-up should give you more information than I can.

It just takes me a lot of time and the adjustments are not logical. It is frustrating

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for me to set up that type of suspension.

There are just too many planes that you are trying to sort out relative to the dynamic
results of the settings.

And I just get confused. ;)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on April 28, 2005, 11:03:21 AM

Richard

Just landed in Boston...... Work...... Get's in our way sometimes......

Good idea on the bolt..... and I'm sure there's a reason for those words of
wisdom...... it's amazing how we get that wisdom......

Infact maybe we'll just buy a bolt with the holes in it and safety wire everything.......

The heim .... I don't know what size it is..... but it is a good idea to do what you said
and it's a no brainer......

Infact Aurora is in my back yard..... and I found the Heim you were talking about....

The suspension seems to be moving thru the up and down movement with out any
bind......and I'm lifting it with both hands so I can feel any bind it might make..... it's
like curling the weights in the gym......

I know if this idea works out ...then this control arm is very good ...but we'll weight
untill I get back and do the bump steer on it...... actually the last control arm
bumped steered quite good..... We'll see .....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 07:22:07 PM

Well like Morgan said....we have to do the Alignment and check the bump steer again
because we have changed the Lower Control Arms.....

So we start with the Camber gauge and go off of the Rotor after we have removed
the lower shock bolt and set the suspension at ride height.....

Then we set our Camber gauge on the rotor and read it.....

Here it reads -1*degree Neg Camber and that's where we are going to start.....

If you need to change the camber it is easy by just removing the bolt at the top of
the upright and screw the top heim in the upright in or out to get the camber you
want.....

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In our case 1 turn on this heim will change the camber by .3 tenths of a degree....

Very straight forward thinking....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 07:26:11 PM

After we adjust and set the camber ..... we move on to the Toe.....

Here we are using straight edges to do the measuring.....

If you go back in this thread ...you will see how we made sure and did all of the
measureing to make sure the chassis is Square..... once we know that then we can
measure off of the frame rails....

So we just extend a straight edge out in front of the rotor and take a measurement
at the rotor and then up in front of the rotor to make sure the rotor/ wheel is parallel
to the chassis with some toe In...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 07:31:52 PM

Here you can see the measurement at the rotor is at 13 1/2" from the frame rail.....

By the way ...if you notice the scissor jack we are using ...it is great and makes the
job so much easier.....

Especially when you're working with the suspension.... cause you can easily lift the
suspension to install the shock bolt and it helps with the bump steer which we'll be
doing in a minute.... it's the only way to go....

So now we made the measurement at the rotor....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 07:36:51 PM

And now you'll see at the end of the straight edge the measurement is at 13 7/16"
inch..... which is giving us a Toe-in of 1/16"...... on the Left Rear.....

Most Cobra rear ends need about 1/4" to 3/8" toe in to help with the rear end bump
steer...... but we don't have that problem ...so we can set it from 1/16" to 1/8" toe in
and it should perform just fine....

This is because the way the Trailing Link is mounted into the Lower Control arm.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 07:42:12 PM

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So we've set the Camber ......Neg -1*degree in the left rear......

Set the toe....to 1/16" Toe-In....on the left rear .....

Now it's time to go to the Bump Steer......

You can go back in the Thread where we discussed Bump steer and how we made
these tools just so we could check these issues on the suspension as we need to or
as we made changes.....

So we mounted up the Plate and set up the Dial indicators and set up to run the
suspension thru it's travel in bump and droop.....

And we did

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 07:49:17 PM

And if you look at the numbers .....the LR came out just fine which is good.....

Repeatability is very important and it is working out just like it's suspose to ....

The numbers look quite good ...especially for the rear of a Cobra.... anytime you can
get these numbers it's great...

We really concern our selves with the first 2"inches of bump and rebound.... because
that's where the suspension will be operating most of the time ....

And if you can be .024" in bump and /022" in droop ..... your rear wheel is not going
to be pushing the car in different directions.....

It will also be very stable....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 07:54:53 PM

Now that the LR is done.....we move to the RR and go thru the same motions....

Set the Camber at Neg -1*degree..... sometimes you will set the top heim of the
upright and sometimes we will move the heims on the top inner control arm.....
depending on how much the heims are extended.....

We like to keep the heims screwed into the control arm as much as we can.....

Then we set the Toe to the same spec as the LR..... 1/16" toe-in.....

Once we get that done we go back to setting up our Bump steer gauge again and
start checking the bump steer so we know where we are....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 08:02:10 PM

After going thru the motions again .... running thru the bump steer we found out the
RR was off more then we would like to see ....meaning that .067"inch is off to much
and will cause the RR to want to push the car in an unstable condition.....

So we removed the upper control arm and screwed in the front upper control arm
heim.....

This will rotate the top of the upright to the front of the car and change the bump
steer.....

Remember rotating the upright is what will change the bump steer of the rear
suspension.... everytime you do this it is a guess as to which way you
go.....fortunately I kept good notes and could review the notes to know which way to
go before we made the adjustment....

So 1 turn in for the front heim on the upper control arm....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 08:08:21 PM

These are my notes on the RR bump steer....

As you can see the static condition showed .067"inch in bump at the beginning.....

And then we removed the upper control arm and turned the top front heim in 1 turn
....moving the top of the upright towards the front of the car..... rotation it.... and the
bump steer came down to .025" inch in 2.5" of travel....which is very good..... but
like I said you're really only concerned with the 2" of bump and 2" of droop.... That's
your main operating area....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 08:15:11 PM

Now when you look at the LR and the RR alignment and Bump Steer numbers it' all
makes sense...and looks great .....

This is a good starting place and the Tires will tell us what to do next to the
suspension.....

The good thing is the Rear Bump steer worked out great and the rear end should
plant it'self and allow you to drive the car out of the corner instead of having to do
power slides or over steer the car to get it to turn in....

You might notice we don't concern our selves with Castor on the rear.....that's
because bump steer is much more important and will allow the car to be driven....

Within 4" of travel the rear tires are in a couple of thousands of each other.....

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This is what makes some cars better then others....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 01, 2005, 08:17:58 PM

Once we got the Alignment and Bump Steer done on the rear of the car .....

Now we can put the Wheels on and get ready to go to the Chassis Services Shop to
do the welding and install the motor and tranny....

Hope this helps some of you out

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Dominik Buss on May 03, 2005, 01:18:32 AM

Morris,

I am understanding more and more now of the rear suspension.

is the trailing arm / track rod / radius rod alone responsible for the anti-squat -
turning of the upright clockwise in bump (looking from the side)?

because using rod ends at the chassis side of the upper control arm (UCA) defies the
object of the 3.30' of the rear pedestals pointing up, if the UCA is responsible for the
castor change.

if I am not mistaken.

unless this 3,30' deg are to offset the drive shaft angle of 1.5 deg.
but then we also could use zero deg for the rear pedestal.

If the 3.30 deg of the upper pedestal is the clue to anti-squat (maybe even in
combination with the trailing arm), that means the trailing arm and the UCA need to
be "synchronized"?

the rod ends for the UCA may now travel 3.30 deg off center, actually deleting the
reason for the upper pedestal beeing tilted? (well, I am not sure, that's why I write
here)

I also see you mount the trailing arm straight now.


what change did now occur talking about castor change in bump (droop)?

or is the anti-squat actually minor, because of less wheel travel in bump in


comparison to a 60s 427 (street)?
like on the JBL, who left anti-squat alone as far as I know.

I also believe that in the 60s FORD was battling for a forgiving rear suspension,
considering the car ran on 205 tires.

or was the chassis MADE for racing and just used on the streets.

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did you monitor your castor change?

your next homework?? ;-)

cheers,

dominik

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 03, 2005, 07:10:53 PM

Morgan

The settings will not change..... when you set the suspension .... everything is set of
of ride heigth..... or what we call Instant center points.....

So as long as you set the ride height to the right position then the Instant centers
are correct and then the roll centers are correct......

That's why ride height is so important .....and why you want to set the ride height
based on the design of the suspension......

Not where you think the tire look good in the wheel well...... ::) ::)

And that's regardless if you have a motor and tranny installed or not.... the added
weight of the motor and tranny will just bring the chassis down an you just set the
ride height back to where it's suppose to be....

When ever people change their ride height to make the car look good..... it could be
making the handleing go off by changeing the IC and Roll centers...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 03, 2005, 07:27:48 PM

Dominik

The angle of the Lower control arm and trailing link establish the Anti-squat.....

The upper heims on the upper control arm control the upper control arm in an in and
out position and an fore and aft position at the end of the upper control
arm........there by locating the upper upright...... so you have the ability to control
camber (in and out) of the upper control arm and fore and aft of the upper control
arm tip to control bump steer.... by rotating the upright around the axis of the
axil.......

Castor means nothing on the rear suspension.... only bump steer..... besides the rear
upright is moving at a angle going towards the rear of the car as it compresses in to
bump.... Which means the wheel base of the car is actually changing as the
suspension move up and down..... but it doesn't mean or do anything to affect the
handleing....

The trailing link mount on the lower control arm (in the center of the control

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arm).....In line with the control arm...instead of hanging down and inch or two from
the lower control arm....... creates a different arc and one that has less bump steer
induced because it is closer to the arc of the rear heim of the lower control arm.....
and that's a big advantage..... no bump steer.... when you are on the power....

All in all ...I'm expecting the car to handle quite well....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 02:20:32 PM

Well we spoke to soon......

We forgot that we needed to remove the shocks and put the wheels on and move the
wheel and tire up thru the verticle travel of the suspension.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 02:31:11 PM

We should of known...... the rear wheels fit just fine..... and thats all we had ever put
on the car....

When we put the front wheels on.... they didn't fit..... the center of the wheel was
not thick enough.....

When we tightened the nut down on the wheel it bottomed out and there was
another 1/4" to go for the wheel to be tight......

Would you know.... BBS had made the center section to thin...... infact they made all
of the centers like the rear center and never looked at the drawings for the front
centers.....

So off to get BBS on the phone and correct the mistake and like a professional shop
they did....

They are making new centers for the front that are 6mm thicker where the wheel nut
tightens up on the wheel.....

What we found out is that we made some spacers.....3/8"spacers and put them
behind the wheel and the offset worked out perfectly...... especially using a
275X35X18 PS-2 tire..... and the Porsche Cup tires will be 285X35X18...... so the
spacer will be a better way to go....

Then we needed to call David K. at Kirkhams and get them to make some longer
drive pins ...which he was great about helping us out..... we will need 1 3/4" long
pins.....and the wheels have a 1 3/4" hole where the drive pin goes....so it was like
planned...... :P :P :P

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 02:34:45 PM

Now that we got the wheels attached to the hub...... we can check to see how the
wheel fits up in the fender....

Remove the shock and install the wheel and tire and put a jack under the tire.....
then set it at ride height and then start jacking the wheel/tire up into the wheel
well.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 02:39:24 PM

Jack the wheel/tire up into the fender the amout your suspension will go into
bump.....

in our case it was 3".....into bump .....

Then look at how the tire fits in the fender..... check all around the tire and see how
much clearance you have ....

In our case we want to know cause we can change the wheels to have any offset we
want....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 02:51:33 PM

In this case ...we could get a 3/4" tape measure between the tire and the fender......
at 3" of bump.

And that's with a 3/8" wheel spacer........ perfect.....

Because that means we can go up to a 345 X 30 X 18 Porsche Cup Michellin tire......

That will give us about 13 1/2" of rubber on the ground..... and that is good..... the
345 is 1 1/2" wider then the 315 we have on the car.....and that means we can have
3/4" on the front of the wheel and 3/4" on the rear of the wheel..... we'll probably
add 1/2" to the front of the rim so we'll have 11 1/2" rims on the rear.....

It will help the grip plus they are taller and will give us the top speed we are looking
for......and look great from the back..... much like a steam roller....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 02:57:06 PM

While you have the wheel/tire up in the fender under the worst bump conditions.....

Check the suspension for any binds or interference with any of the body or frame

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members....

Also check the inside of the tire and how close it will come to the fuel tank and inner
fender panels..... especially nuts that stick out...... we turned all of our bolts around
so the head of the bolt was in the inner fender area....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 03:01:20 PM

And check the top of the suspension for the upper control arm and how close it
comes to the inner fender panel.....

also look at the half shaft in the other photo to see how mis aligned it is to the rear
diff.....

Bad things happen when you bottom out the suspension......

That's why we check everything out before it happens....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 03:10:24 PM

Now we know we can go off roading or off track and not worry about the suspension
or wheel and tire coming up and destroying the suspension or the body.....

This is a lot of trouble to go thru ....but is mandatory when you are building a car
that will be run on a track.... and the street as well.....

There's a lot of pot holes and ditches out there in our world.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 03:14:15 PM

Go thru the same checks on the front of the car as you did on the rear of the car....

We just check everything in the straight ahead position....

Seems to work that way....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 03:36:16 PM

The front was much closer.... we could only get a 1/2" space between the tire and
the fender..... in the bump condition....

What we are doing is using the width of the rulers to get the measurement.....

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The rear was a 3/4" tape that would fit inbetween the tire and the fender..... and the
front we could use a 1/2" ruler to fit between the tire and the fender.....

On the front this is a 275X35X18 PS-2 tire....and the back spacing is perfect because
we moved the suspension and tire right and left to see if the tire was going to have
any interference with the sway bar or control arms.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 03:41:16 PM

Once you see the tire up in the fender well .... you will be able to check everything
out and know what adjustments that need to be made....

Here on the front the offset is good with the 3/8" spacer behind the wheel and won't
hurt the scrub radius to much....

We will leave the spacer on the front and rear and just change the drive pins to
engage the wheel much better...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 03:45:29 PM

Now that we know everything is going to fit and work out.....

Down it comes and off the lift for the first time since June of last year......

I guess it take awhile when you have to check and make adjustments along the
way....

Now it's off to Chassis Services ....my Fab guy's that do a great job...... especially
welding SS and doing the other things we want to add to the chassis....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 03:50:36 PM

Well that didn't last long..... I like the way they cover the car up when they are not
working on it.....

We are getting all of the items together to build our Honeycomb plates for the
bottom of the car.....

Yes we have come up with a way to stiffen the chassis by using some Aerospace
technology...... Honeycomb.....

It's light and very strong..... Richard and I got into this and he has got me started in
going with the Honeycomb panels across the bottom of the car.....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 03:53:35 PM

Here we are drawing out how we want to do the Honeycomb panels.....

We have to make some side channels .....then get some inserts...... then the right
Epoxy.....

Then put holes every two inches.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 04:00:23 PM

Here you can see the 4 panels of Honeycomb......

We had them made much stiffer then they use in the Aerospace industry.....

We used .050" panels on top and bottom......normally .020".....

Then we used Aluminum 1/4" honeycomb inbetween the panel....normally they use
1/2" or bigger.....

The panels are made into a 4'X8' sheet first and then we had them cut down to 2'X4'
panels.....

They are 1" thick ......and are strong and light.....will add about 40lbs to the car but
will stiffen the chassis by many times......infact we will run some chassis test when
we get done.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 04:07:17 PM

If you think of a Rack of shelves....standing up.....much like a ladder frame...... you


will add diagonal braces or a flat back to keep the book shelf from swaying or
twisting......

The Cobra chassis is strong enough in the Longitudial way ...it's the torsional
direction that the chassis is weak.....

Installing the honeycomb panels 1" thick is like adding a 1" thick plate to the
chassis..... this will helpa and control the torsional movement of the chassis......

I got the idea from one of my friends in racing ..... and Richard has steered me
towards the Honeycomb.....and for the strength verses the weight ....it's a great
idea...... expensive ....but good torsional strength.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 04:10:45 PM

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We'll keep you posted as we go along and work with the Honeycomb.....

Here's another trick we figured out the other day.....

Because there's some many issues with the lines on the Hyd T/O bearing.....

We cut a 2"X 2" hole in the bellhousing so we can get a wrench up in there to remove
the lines.....

You can remove the bottom line and then spin the T/O bearing over and remove the
top line.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 04:12:58 PM

;)

Can't remember everything....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 04:17:31 PM

As you can see ....you have just enough room to get a wrench up into the
bellhousing and change the lines....

Also we'll cut a slot in the bell housing so we can get a feeler gauge up between the
clutch disc and drive plates...... just another thing to make like easier....

The block is an old FE block that well use to mount everything up to....

Hope this helps out

And we'll keep you posted as we get thru this chassis stiffening...... like door bars
and trying to tie the structure together....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 17, 2005, 06:40:45 PM

Sideways

Ride height is determined by the Instant Center of the front suspension which
determines the Roll Center of the front of the car.....

The Ride height is built into the suspension and should be set based on the design of
the suspension and the height of the tires.....

The suspension is built from the Tire in...... then upright.... control arms..... frame

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mounting points....etc....

So based on height of the tire you have at 28" and mine at 25.5".... our car would be
lower...... and the suspensions could be set at the same angles ...but my Roll center
would be lower to the ground and that may be good or bad..... These cars need a
higher roll center then most cars of today....

The Aero package is another topic and discussion in itself.....

When it comes to suspensions....there are no easy answers....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: muz on May 18, 2005, 03:48:23 AM

Morris, what is the spline plunge on half shafts droop to bump. Is this going to knot
up your lovely suspension geometry in a bump under power? Might need a 935 type
inner joint. AWESOME BUILD Cheers muz.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 18, 2005, 06:29:59 AM

muz

If you look at this photo ...it shows the halfshaft at full bump .......

We painted the halfshafts fully compressed so we could tell how much movement we
had in bump and droop....

At full bump we have about 1/2" before we bottom out in bump and it is about 3/4"
in full droop.....

Although I will agree that the CV joints are the way to go ...and at some point in time
we will switch to them.... That's what we ran on the Corvette....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Jamo on May 18, 2005, 10:46:33 AM

Yo Mo

Since that thing ain't gonna qualify as a scattershield anymore with the holes, are
you gonna use a blanket for the track?

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 18, 2005, 06:53:33 PM

Jamo

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That's a good question......

But I would ask why it doesn't qualify for the track..... ????

In the old Z cars.... we just installed a 1/4" plate around the gas pedal area on the
inside of the tunnel....and that was good enough for Tech......

And here we have a 1/4" Bell housing surrounding the Clutch except for the hole
going down to the ground and the hole where the fork arm would go.....

And you would know..... does this not meet the GCR...... ???

And what if we put a plate over the hole..... on the bottom..... does that work..... ???

Rules......ugh......Rules.....help us out here ..... you are the most informed of the
bunch....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Jamo on May 18, 2005, 08:51:48 PM

I'll answer it like a lawyer. Hmmm...difficult question. I will have have to research
the issue in depth, tracing the rule of law back to the Magna Carta, and maybe even
further back. I wil require, of course, a retainer of say...$25,000 ought to do for a
few weeks, and then I will ask for more.

The rules for SFI and most sanctioning bodies is that if you touch a scattershield, it
no longer be a scattershield. Now, if it happens to scrape flat on the bottom due to
low clearance, that can be overlooked. Cut a hole in it, and you've arguably taken
away from its containment ability. We've had this issue pop up regularly in the
SCCA Safety Steward newsletters. A plate doesn't cure it...arguably adds more
shrapnel, but it would likely make it less noticeable to lazy techies.Â

If you're simply going to be open tracking and running in non-competitive historic


venues, shouldn't be a problem unless the track itself requires containment at certain
speed levels. Nothing a blanket couldn't cure anyway. They'd catch your ass at an
NHRA or IHRA strip, but I doubt you'd go there or run more than bracket racing
anyway.

The way you're building this beast, I would not have put it past you lining up next to
Fellows or Said ;D, so I thought I'd ask.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 19, 2005, 08:24:38 AM

Jamo

Thanks for the insight..... we won't be on a Drag strip...... just road courses.....

And just some Vintage races and track days where we can......

And covering the hole is to keep stuff from gettting in.....Built for the ease of the
Technician....

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As TC called it " it's a track car on the street" ..... or ...."it's a street car on the
track"...... not sure....

Just having fun building it....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on May 19, 2005, 10:51:25 AM

Jamo,

The GCR states:

17.24. SCATTERSHIELDS/CHAIN GUARDS

1. The installation of scattershields or explosion-proof bell housings


shall be required on all cars (except Showroom Stock, Touring
and Improved Touring) where the failure of the clutch or flywheel
could create a hazard to the driver.

2. Chain drive cars shall be fitted with a protective case/shield to


retain the chain in case of failure.

Minimum material specifications are:

.125 inch SAE 4130 alloy steel


.250 inch mild steel plate
.250 inch aluminum alloy
NHRA or SFI approved flexible shields.

I take the above to mean that a fabricated bell housing is allowed if one uses at least
the minimum material specification. I do not see any reference to a requirement for
SFI certification except in the case of flexible units.

Therefore, In Morris's situation, I think that one could argue that a plate properly
secured to withstand the forces involved from a pressure plate or flywheel failure
does not impinge on the structural integrity or functionality of the overall unit.Â

Of course one would have to argue this point with stewards who may or may not
have a structural engineering background.

Browell bell housings which meet SFI 1.1 & 1.2 & 1.3 & 1.4, 1.6 etc. have bolt on
covers over adjustment holes.

One could always submit the unit to SFI for recertification. They want it done on
these units every five years anyway.Â

Also, I would point to the clutch arm hole as it is certainly a problem from
structural standpoint. It greatly diminishes the hoop strenght of the unit and that is
what really matters as you are trying to contain a flywheel that has come loose or
apart.Â

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Yet it still has a SFI certification.Â

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Jamo on May 20, 2005, 01:37:42 AM

Richard

Impressive structural enginners can certainly show up on race day and present
impressive structual engineering arguments for fabricated scattershields without the
Good Housekeeping Seal, and I'll invite them to submit their impressive structural
engineering arguments in writing when they appeal any decision of mine they might
not happen to like, and then I'll move on to the next car and/or issue and get the
cars that passed tech on grid and ready to race.Â

If someone feels they've built a better mousetrap, we invite them to demonstrate


how wonderfully they kill them critters before race day.

I agree with you about the clutch arm hole...especially since it faces the driver.Â
Shrapnel, like water, follows the path of least resistence. I happen to believe in
blankets.

Arguing with stewards is like arguing what the law should be with a cop. Just
pisses the cop off. :P

Trust me, I could write a book on inconsistent crap we are told to enforce. ::)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on May 20, 2005, 08:50:01 AM

Jamo,

I understand your point. I have had to discuss legalities of many items with various
stewards with many different levels of experience.Â

It can be a very frustrating ordeal for both parties.Â

However, the GCR rule does not require a SFI rating on a bell housing. (AT least the
2002 book does not.)

Therefore I would have to argue that you cannot disallow a vehicle from competition
because the bellhousing does not have a SFI rating.

Admittedly, it is generally a good idea for the competitor to use certified units. As
most amateur competitors do not have the resources available to design and
manufacture a proper unit.

Now, were I manufacturing a bellhousing for SCCA competition, I would have it


homologated prior to presentation at a tech line. This process can also be
extremely frustrating. (I could write a book on this as well.)Â

But as you said, "Arguing with stewards is like arguing what the law should be with a
cop. Just pisses the cop off."

The inconsistencies that you speak of are manifold. Interpretation of the GCR is
like interpretation of the bible.

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Few agree about anything, but the devout are always correct in their own opinions.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on May 20, 2005, 07:08:06 PM

Jamo,

Must of been the special 42 handrubbed coats of primer that drew all of the
attention. 8)

And I know you are kidding, The JBL was just a teaser for the GT.

Sorry that I could not get to the Bash.Â

(I was told that showing up in a 928 would have been risking my life with certain
factions of the Gashole community and I take such warnings to heart.)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 04:53:31 PM

We knew the motor is making good strong HP and with that comes heat.....

The existing oil cooler is not enough of a cooler to last any amount of time on a
track..... Infact the existing oil cooler is put together with epoxy and that makes me
nervous because when you are in the heat of concentration ...you don't have time to
worry about an oil cooling issue.....

So we are installing a larger oil cooler..... it's a Fluidyne Sportsman 500 single
pass..... we like it because it's all welded construction and solid as a rock.....and it's
3 3/4" thick and close to the same dimensions as the other cooler...... and would fit
with the least amount of modifications......

It's much like the old Stewart Warner Cooler used on Helicopters and we used them
for years.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 04:57:53 PM

The first thing we did was to cut the existing flanges off .....because it was made to
mount flat against a panel......... then we made a over hang plate and welded it to
the top of the cooler so it could be attached on the top of the cross bar......

The next thing we did was to make some bungs to support the cooler on the sides
with the existing side brackets......

Notice each side of the cooler has two ports......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:01:19 PM

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Here you can see the over hang and how it will lay on the top of the crossbar....

Having both ports on each side of the cooler makes it very flexible for the oil line
routeing

BTW the cooler is much heavier then the original and that is why we are mounting it
the way we are....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:05:01 PM

Next we welded bungs to both sides of the cooler.....

These will stablize the cooler on the sides and also help support the weight....

It will be attached at the top with 3ea 1/4" bolts in nutserts and the sides will have
1/4" bolts attaching into the side brackets.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:07:43 PM

You need bungs on both sides of the cooler.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:12:08 PM

The brackets needed to be modified to accomodate the fittings from the cooler.....
and holes for the bungs to attach to the side brackets.....

This Sportsman 500 cooler should handle the amount of heat the motor will
generate..... and especially if you get behind someone...... and have no air flow.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:16:05 PM

Notice that we come into the cooler on the passenger side and we come into the low
port on that side.....

Then we'll go out of the cooler on the High port on the drivers side......

This will allow the oil to build up and cross the cooler and exit when it has been
cooled the most.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:19:22 PM

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Now you can see how the over hang is attached to the crossbar..... and is supporting
most of the weight....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:21:08 PM

And the bungs will support the cooler from the sides

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:24:15 PM

Now we mount up the fittings and plugs and see how everything is going to fit.....

Grinding the Clearance in the side brackets takes the most time..... just getting them
right and in the right place....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:26:46 PM

Now the cooler is mounted.......and we have to make the shroud......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:30:03 PM

The shroud is looking real good because it will pack in the air for the Oil cooler ......

And it will deflect some of the incoming air up to the top of the radiator shroud......

And we are going to try and pull some air for the carb from the front of the car.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:32:51 PM

As you can see the cooler and shroud must blend together and not have any abrupt
blockage of the air flow....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:35:12 PM

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View from the top and the shroud covered the Oil cooler just right......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:40:55 PM

From the front you'll never know we have put a fairly large oil cooler in the air
stream.....

What we really like about this set up is that the oil line will come from the oil filter
mounted on the passenger side of the car and go thru a panel between the radiator
and frame....and pass down to the oil cooler.....

Then come out of the cooler and go up to a opening in the panel between the
radiator and the frame and the oil lines are not hung out there with their weight
being supported by the fittings on the oil cooler ..... these will be attached to the
panels coming down the the cooler......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:43:52 PM

Now for the Trick Tool of the Day......

Insert this tool when you are pulling the motor..... or transmission

It supports the motor while you are removing the Transmission and you don't have to
have a jack supporting the motor....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:46:24 PM

The weight of the motor sits on the existing bolt attaching the oil pan to the block.....

And the allen head screws are adjustable to work with any motor....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on May 31, 2005, 05:50:30 PM

Lift up the motor and rotate into position and set the motor back down.....

No jack needed under the car .....getting in the way..... and slowly leaking down.....

I hope all this helps some of you out....

We are slowly getting to the Honeycomb and the motor install.... just take time.....

Morris

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: roger on June 02, 2005, 05:35:05 AM

The engine centerline is offset 1/2" to the right and the diff stub axles are centered.
Diff input is offset 1"+ to the right.

What is the tilt-back of the engine/trans?

How does it match the tilt of the diff?

Ford designed the FE for some "ideal tilt back", but I've never seen an actual
document that descirbes this.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 02, 2005, 06:40:47 AM

roger

Interesting you should ask that question..... Tom K. and I were talking about that
yesterday......

We thought the drivetrain would work out to be somewhere between 0*-3*degree's


......for the motor and transmission and that would be based on the angle of the
driveshaft.....

Now you see why our little tool will be needed ...... once we set the motor and tranny
in the chassis..... we'll measure everything before we weld the tabs on for the
transmission...... we are using a TKO 600 tranny..... so the tabs will weld on the rear
of the cross member.....

As Tom K said ....the diff will want to lift up when power is applied so we want to
consider that in the angle of the driveshaft as well .....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 07:09:25 PM

Now we start getting into getting the motor ready to accept the Transmission

So we start with the making the motor plate fit flat up against the block.....

There was interference between the motor plate and the rear cam plug...... so rather
then mess with the plug and take a chance not sealing it up again..... we just cut a
hole in the motor plate ....

Now the plate can sit flat up against the block and not have any rubbing of any
parts....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 07:13:44 PM

Now we remove the old Dowel pins that locate the bell housing and install new offset
dowel pin that will move .007" of an inch so we can move the bell housing to line it
up with the crank....

Also we found that the bell housing was hitting the rear of the Intake manifold ....not
good....

So we had to get the grinder out and shave off some of the Intake manifold so they
did not interfer with each other.....

When we got done we had about .100" clearance between the intake and the bell
housing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 07:18:24 PM

Now we sanded the hole where the indicator was going to ride against so it would be
a smooth reading on the dial indicator.....

Then we mounted the Dial indicator on the crank and set it so it was touch the bell
housing around the hole....

It's easy to be off here because the indicator only has so much travel ....so we make
sure it touches at all point in the rotation of the crank....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 07:32:43 PM

And you will Foosh....

Now we take a piece of paper and draw a circle on it...... then we mark North ......
South .....East.....West......

Then we set the indicator up at Zero at the North pole and then we start rotating the
crank..... (take the plugs out ...much easier)..... and record your readings at the
West mark and then the South mark and finally the East mark....... You may have to
do this many times to get it right.....

This will tell you how much your bell housing is out of alignment with the crank
center line.....

Move the dowels in the same direction and line both of the screwdriver slots on the
dowels up so they are going in the same direction in the block..... That way the offset
is going in the same direction

We were able to get our readings like this

North - .000
West - .007
South - .007

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East - .000

So our Center line of the hole of the bell housing was only off center in the
Southwest quadrant by .0035" thousands of an inch...... the tolerance is .005" ......
That was good ....

You only use half of the measurement you are reading...... because you are reading
the diameter and half would be the radius or center of the transmission and that is
what we are concerned with....

But it took us a while moving the dowels around to get it lined up like we did.....

This is a very important step in the bell housing fitment process....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 07:40:50 PM

By the way ...when we were making the adjustments of the Dowel pins ....we only
loosened the bolts on the bell housing and made a movement in the dowel pins
....then tightened the bell housing bolts back down.....

Just to make sure we have the dowel pins in the right place ...we removed the bell
housing from the block .... then reinstalled the bell housing and tightened down the
bell housing bolts and re installed the dial indicator and did our measurements
again......North ....West.....South.....East......

And the readings came out the same..... then we knew we had the dowel where we
wanted them.....

So now so they wouldn't move ....we drilled into the block and into the dowel
pins...... about half way thru the dowel pin....... and threaded it...... 8-32 thread
.......

And we got some 8-32 allen head screws and installed them for now.... to hold
everything in place.....

Later we will get some 8-32 set screws and install them down into the holes......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 07:47:03 PM

Here's the dowel pin on the passenger side .....

Again these are just temporary screws holding the dowel pins in place until we get
some set screws....

Caution .... when tapping 8-32 screws ..... be very careful not to break the tap.....
we found that we just go slow and use allot of Marvel Mystery Oil..... and don't get in
a hurry.....

Also when you get to the steel dowel ...the tap will act like it wants to stop
turning..... just go slow and you'll get it tapped.....tapp it to the bottom of the

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hole....

The beauty of the set screw...is once you do this ....the dowels and bell housing are
set for a long time until something changes.... so you can take the tranny in and out
and not have to be concerned with it's location....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 07:50:26 PM

Again drilling the dowel was easy .... it's the tap that will require some soft touch.....

You can see how the dowel pin is set in the block.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 07:57:26 PM

Now we have to address the Crank and input shaft of the transmission.

We are running a TKO 600 transmission and with a Short input shaft.......

That means the input shaft is only 6 1/2" long .....from the transmission case to the
tip of the Input shaft......

After careful measurements ..we found that the input shaft was only in the crank
about 3/8"inch..... not enough...... so the bushing will have to come out of the crank
about 3/8"inch to support the input shaft the way it needs to be supported......

The Bushing will have to be made like a Flange bushing with the small end going into
the crank and the large flange end of the bushing sticking out of the crank about
another 3/8"inch....

And especially if you are running a multi plate clutch..... you will need as much
support on the crank end as possible.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:02:46 PM

Here we bought 2 bars of Oil impregnated bronze bushing stock...... McMaster


Carr.....

Both are 6 1/2" long and one is a solid piece and the other has a 1/2" hole all ready
drilled thru it.....

Bushing stock is much better for road racing because roller bearings will fail at the
wrong time..... Oilite bronze bushing stock is much more durable and will last a lot
longer....

Been using in RR for years.... and when you find somethng that works .....don't
change it.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:09:17 PM

The bushing will go into the hole and then come out of the crank about .400" inch ....

That means the input shaft (short one) will only go into the crank about 3/8"inch.....
and the flange part of the bushing will stick out of the crank 3/8".....and the polished
part of the input shaft is only 7/8"inch long....

So we'll have about 3/4" of bushing on the polished part of the input shaft and that
will support the shaft and also not allow the bushing a chance to go anywhere if it
should decided to try and come out of the crank.....

By the way the part of the bushing that is stuck in the crank is only over size by
about .0005"....not much and it still took a good tap with the hammer to get it into
the crank....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:13:47 PM

Now we index the flywheel on the crank..... we just keep moving it in a circle until
the bolt holes line up.....

Once we can see the holes line up we took some ARP Pro series Flywheel bolts and
installed them.....

Work your way around the flywheel tightening the bolts..... criss cross.....

You are pulling the flywheel on the crank and you will back out the bolts once they
are all tightened down and the flywheel is flat against the crank hub.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:17:16 PM

The bolts will seem tight to get them to pull the flywheel down against the crank hub
......

Just keep the bolts started into the crank and work slowly to ease the flywheel down
......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:26:33 PM

BTW you do not use any washer under the flywheel bolts......

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Now we back out all of the bolts to the last couple of threads...... then have you
torque wrench and locktite ready.....

Pull out the bolts one at a time and use a couple of drops of Red Loctite..... 271 on
the threads of the bolts....

Put the bolt back in and screw it in as far as you can by hand.....

Do the same for all of the bolts......6 each....

Then put a socket on them and start tightening them down in a criss cross pattern so
you can get the bolts pulled down on the flywheel.....

Then we get the torque wrench out and go about to half of the torque you need on
the first tightening sequence of the bolts ...again criss cross pattern.....

In the case of these bolts we are going to torque them down to 90 foot lbs...of
torque......

Once you have torqued them alll....... go over them again......and check...... some of
the bolts we noticed needed to be touched up......

Do this as quickly as you can so the locktite doesn't set up......


'
Once they set up with the Red Locktite.... then it will take a impact gun to knock
them out when you need to remove them .....and you will be replacing them
anyway.....

Never use flywheel bolts more then once....... then throw them away....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:30:25 PM

Next we check the shims on the studs of the flywheel..... these shims control the
height of the fingers of the diaphram.......

So as the clutch plates wear...... and the fingers start raising up...... you can add or
subtract shims to reposition the diaphram fingers so they are level with the cover
plate.....

We check to make sure there are six (6 each) shim washers on each post.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:34:28 PM

Check on the bushing ....and it's coming along fine......

Always check these bushings when they are done...... on the first one we found a
crack in the bushing..... had to start all over again...... now you see why I had 2 bars
of Oil impregnated bronze stock...... both were a little different....and the second
time the bushing turned out the way it was suppose to....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:38:01 PM

Now we have the bushing installed and the clutch is installed with blue locktite 242
and the 3/8"inch bolts were torqued down to 25#foot lbs.....

Red locktite on the Flywheel bolts and blue when you are threading into
Aluminum.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:41:42 PM

By the way when installing a multi disc clutch .....it's always better to use a Input
shaft instead of the plastic shafts......

Yes it cost a bit to find a Input shaft ....but well worth every penny when you are
trying to line the transmission up and slide it into the clutch plates.......

Now we know how the input shaft on the transmission is going to fit .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:44:46 PM

Notice the blue mark at the 6:00 position on the flywheel.....

That mark is on the flywheel..... floater plate..... and diaphram cover......

When they balanced the assembly ...they marked it..... and also they marked the
disc so you know which way they go.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:49:49 PM

Now you can see the straps that attach the floater plate to the flywheel.....

This will keep the clutch from rattleing around when when it is disengaged......

This is a Race clutch that can be driven on the street and the straps just control the
floater plate instead of letting it be loose inbetween two clutch disc.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:53:07 PM

Flywheel is torqued to 90 ft lbs...... clutch is torqued to 25 ft lbs.....Input shaft is


installed and bushing is supporting the input shaft like it should now....... instead of

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just 3/8" in the crank.....

Now we can install the bell housing to measure for the T/O bearing......

Then send the B/H out to the powder coaters....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 08:55:17 PM

Since we are using a Hyd Throw out bearing...... we install the spacer and then the
T/O bearing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 09:00:12 PM

This is a side shot of the spacer and T/O bear ..... this is know as a Slip on Hyd T/O
bearing.....

You start with the spacer and then measure the height of the t/o bearing to the
surface of the transmission..... then you measure the bell housing to the fingers of
the diaphram clutch.....

Subtract the two and that tell you the clearance you have.....

We shoot for about .230"inch....... between the fingers of the clutch and the T/O
bearing...... that way as the clutch plates wear down and the fingers of the diaphram
raise up you will still have plenty of clearance between the fingers and the t/o
bearing......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 09:05:03 PM

After we did all of our measureing..... we didn't need the spacer ..... so we removed
it and will adjust the height of the T/O bearing by unscrewing the collar inside of the
T/O bearing.....

I like the slip on T/O bearings because not always are the diaphram fingers and the
T/O bearing in alignment..... so a little movement is fine .....

Our final clearance between the T/O bearing and the fingers of the Diaphram are
.239"inch ...close enough.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 09:08:19 PM

Tool tip ...... notice the engine stand...... we cut the rear leg off and moved it to

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mount on the back side of the motor.....

this allow you to mount your bell housing and do all of the other measurements and
put the bell housing on as many times as you want and not interfer with the engine
stand.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 09:13:15 PM

This shot also shows the 8-32 set screw we used to lock the dowel pin into place.....

And the engine stand on the other side of the motor.....

Hope this helps some of you out.....

Again....my brain moves faster then my fingers can type ...so I'm sure there are
many misspelled words.....

But bear with me.... It's the information I'm trying to get across.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 06, 2005, 09:15:27 PM

Closer shot.... of set screw....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 06:42:36 PM

Well after we Got the Pilot Bushing made and at the right height..... and then
installed the Flywheel and clutch.......

Then we got the T/O bearing set up on the front of the transmission.....(TKO 600.....
Ford Short Shaft)....

And we cut the nose of the Input shaft housing (Candle stick).....

Now we can finish the Bell housing and get everything ready to go....

Here's the bottom cover plate on the bottom of the Bell housing ...... this will allow
us to change the T/O bearing -4 lines without removing the transmission.....

And will save us a lot of time once everything is assembled....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 06:46:47 PM

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You can see how we machined the bottom of the bell housing for ground
clearance......

BTW we are using ARP short 3/8" bolts to hold the cover plate on the bottom on the
bell housing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 06:49:46 PM

This is a good shot of how we did the side of the bell housing to clear the frame
rail.....

Ours is a little different then the others because we are going to be putting some
gusset tubes in the chassis.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 06:54:56 PM

Here you see the normal hole the Lakewood bell housing has in it......

Not liking the size of the hole because it could let a lot of fragments out should a
clutch ever decide to destroy it's self...... we came up with a better idea......

The hole is great to measure the clearance between the clutch and drive plates..... (
.040")...... and to exit the lines for the T/O bearing ....but it's just to big.....

Notice the 2 holes that are drilled and tapped for 3/8" X 16 thread above and below
the Clutch fork hole....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 06:58:19 PM

Here we start making the cover plate for the Clutch Fork hole......

It's not flat ...has a bend in it which makes it even stronger.....

It's Chromolly 3/16"..... with tabs to mount to the bell housing.....

These bell housings are very tough to drill and especially tap a threaded hole.....

But thats good ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:01:17 PM

Now we have both holes covered and when they are Powder Coated ...you won't

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notice them and I'm sure the Tech inspectors will appreciate what we have done....

The little short 1/2" ARP bolts are great in this application

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:05:42 PM

Now you can see we have added a L bracket to the cover plate.....

We made the cover plate in 2 sections because of the compound bend in the plate to
match the bell housing ....

And now we want a L-tab welded on the the cover plate so we can clamp the -4 T/O
bearing lines back away from the clutch......

This is very important as the clutch and flywheel are a violent enviroment and we
want to keep control of these lines with mechanical fastners instead of cable ties or
some sort of temporary device.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:11:26 PM

It's hard to see ...but the cover plate now has a function ....and that is keep the lines
away from the spinning clutch by drilling a 3/16" hole in the L tab we can use some
Adel clamps and attach the lines to the tab and not be concerned how the lines are
runing in the bell housing

The real nice part about this is that you stick the lines thru the bell housing hole and
out the clutch fork hole and then attach the cover and attach the lines out side the
bell housing ..... all of this when you are installing the transmission.....

Clean and easy.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:21:37 PM

Now let's look inside the bell housing......

You can see how the lines are going to be run and will stay flat against the back
surface of the bell housing.....

Also you'll notice the lines are not straight up and down.......

That's because we had to take the Candle stick (Input shaft Housing) off and drill a
hole in it at the 7:00 oclock position......

The idea here is to prevent the T/O bearing housing from turning and ripping the
lines out......

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I know they say it won't happen...... well ..just in case it wants to try ..... we
mounted a bolt in the Input shaft housing and the bolt goes thru the T/O bearing and
is lock-tited Blue ...into the candle stick but we did not drill all of the way thru the
candle stick...... or we would have had a leak at some point in time.... just in about
2/3rds of the way..... bottom tap.....

Now the bolt is a stop for the housing of the T/O bearing and will controll the housing
and prevent it from turning......

BTW it's a 5/16" bolts and stick up above the T/O bearing housing by about
.100"inch....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:26:08 PM

By the way..... one thing you might not notice but should.......

Is with the Short Shaft (6.5"Long) .... Ford TKO 600 transmission .....

We have cut the Input Shaft Housing back 5/8" so it does not interfer with the clutch
plate hubs...... and the splines have room for the double plate clutch......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:30:22 PM

Again the hose containment out side of the bell housing works out good because we
made the L tab at the right length to hold the hoses back against the bell housing....

And we are covering the large hole that use to be right at our foot box.......

Not that anything is ever going to happen.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:33:42 PM

I'm a big believer in Adel clamps...... we use them for everything we want to tie
down....

From electrical to mechanical to hoses..... they are the best way to tie something
down and not have to be concerned about it ever coming loose....

A 3/16" hole and bolt and the lines are done

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:37:16 PM

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Good containment of the hose lines .....

Also our cover plates will keep dirt and oil out of the bell housing......

And contain any fragments if a problem should develop inside the bell housing...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:40:15 PM

Now we have the Bell housing fitted to the transmission..... ....

And we have fitted the Bell housing to the motor.....

Now we are ready to mount the Bell housing to the Motor ....'

Then mount the Transmission to the Bell housing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:45:27 PM

Here we used the Long bolt trick..... 2each 4 1/2" long 7/16" bolts and cut the heads
off.... grind the end to a taper........... and then screw them into the bottom
transmission mounting bolt holes......

They will act as a guide to help you slide the transmission into the clutch plates......

Especially when you are using a Double plate clutch....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:54:51 PM

The transmission requires a lot of wiggleing of the tail shaft to get it started and
when the input shaft goes in to the clutch plates..... it will slide in up to the OD
(outside Diameter) of the Candle stick or input shaft housing.....

Now is when you put the bolts in the transmission to bell housing holes and remove
the studs you made to help you guide the input shaft into the clutch.....

You'll notice the tranny just doesn't go any farther..... and with you moving the tail
housing around in many directions ....it just doesn't go all of the way ...... start
tightening the trany to B/H bolts and work you way around the transmission ..... a
couple of turns on each bolt ...until it starts to pull down..... and mate up with the
Bell housing.....

We used Grade 8 bolts with AN washers and smaller size washer ......like a 3/8"
washer on a 7/16" bolt..... fits nice and tight ...much like the AN washer...and
spreads out the load a little farther then the AN washer..... That's because it's a

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Aluminum ear on the Aluminum transmission....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 07:58:55 PM

We sent the cover plates out to the powder coater and will have them back in a week
.... then all we have to do is mount them to the bell housing and mount the lines......

BTW ...we torqued the Bell housing to the Aluminum block and used Blue locktite....

And the same for the Transmission to Bell housing bolts..... Blue Locktite....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 08:02:22 PM

Now we'll move on the the chassis and try and re-enforce the Ladder Frame rails with
this 1 1/2" SS 316 by .120 wall ....

We'll use it as Triangulation and Gussets in the frame to stiffen it for the future.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 17, 2005, 08:08:47 PM

We had some Honeycomb panels made up and were going to use them to strength
the chassis.....

But they wouldn't fit..... Not good very expensive mis calculation.....

But we have an alternative game plan and that will be to put in the extra tubes and
gussets .....

Then make some Titanium plates to cover the bottom of the chassis ...... much
thinner and about the same weight as the Honeycomb.....

The way we will mount it will require a lot of welding down the side of the ladder
frame.....

But it will stiffen the chassis and make for a better working Suspension....

Hope this helps someone out in their efforts to build their Dream car....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 18, 2005, 08:18:39 PM

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Hi Guy's .....

Just got back from Road America helping my old Corvette get dialed in today.... what
a great time..... and yep we still got it..... and got a great compliment when one of
the competitors came by and said that old 88 Corvette is Damn Fast...... Felt good....

Turk

You are the best....a one of the quickest minds of all time....

Allen

You are right and we will do exactly what you said.....

We just need to find some Titanium at a reasonable cost..... and the strong stuff
about 3/8" thick....

This is a great site and a great bunch of guy's...

And we just thought we were building a car that was consistant with today's
standards...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 04:53:46 PM

Thought you guy's would get a kick out of this photo....

At Chassis Services ...... John Quinn is welding some triangulation and gussets into
the frame.....

The best part about it is.......

John is laying on his back and welding in front of his face about 6 inches away from
the torch......

And welding Stainless Steel on top of that..... BTW he's ASME certified to weld tubing
up to 10,000 #.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 04:55:48 PM

I know we all know guy's that can do this..... but it is amazing to me to be able to do
this.....

Just a Talent I admire......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 04:59:22 PM

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Anyway we are starting to make some head way......

The braces and extra tubing is added in to start the chassis re-enforcement......

We'll weld in gussets and tubing to strengthen the chassis and then at the end we'll
install a Titanium plate on the bottom of the main tubing to help in strength and Aero
on the bottom of the car....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:01:43 PM

Here's the gussets we are adding to the chassis.....

Doesn't look like much ...but wait until we get the bottom plate mounted....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:04:18 PM

Here we have mounted the tabs on the Shock mounts so we can transfer the loading
and forces from one shock tower to another.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:06:58 PM

We mounted the tabs so the Vin# will be under the Cross bar......

And the way we are welding it ...the number is just fine.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:09:37 PM

At 5:00 tonight we had to grab John by the legs and pull him out.....

He did a good job today..... and upside down and with a mirror in some
places......which is welding backwards......

Wow..... 8)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:14:10 PM

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Motor is going in for the Final time ....I hope.....we've had it in and out many
.....many times.....

But I think now we are there .....just a little trimming on one of the tabs and all is
well....

BTW ...... putting a motor in with a Fork Lift is the only way to go...... extra long fork
and this kool hook.....and it goes in quick.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:18:59 PM

The only hook was the motor mount plates in the car......

We elongated them some ...about 1/2".....then we locktided the mount on the


Drivers side on to the block.....

Then we left the passenger side off and waited untill the motor got low enough to
insert the mount in to the mount on the frame and we could put the bolts in the
block at the same time....doing everything loose....and then letting the motor
down......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:26:46 PM

Motor is in and missed all of the cross braces and Gussets......

When I first heard of someone using a fork lift to install a motor ...I thought it was
crazy......

But now I'm a big believer..... the fork can very gently put the motor anywhere you
want it..... I was impressed and we've changed a lot of motors over the years.....

Anyway our little stand we made for the back of the oil pan to support the motor had
to be modified ....because now we have the actual oil pan in place ..... we ended up
cutting off the allen head bolts and just letting the pan sit down on the small post
sticking up..... still a good idea.... and will hold everything in place as we install the
transmission and weld up the tabs....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:30:04 PM

Here's a shot of the gussets at the rear of the motor and the stand and the bell
housing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:34:33 PM

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This is a good shot to show what we did to the motor mounts.....

We drilled 5/16" holes ..... 2 each in each motor mount

Then we installed to 5/16" bolts with lock nuts

Then we only tightened them down till the nuts just touch the washers.....

There is some movement but not much of any.....

This is also a good thing incase the motor mount should ever come apart....

Don't expect it to...but .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 20, 2005, 05:40:57 PM

This is the mount on the passenger side....

We locked down the mount on the driver side....and now we tighten the mount on
the passenger side.....

Then we put a Smart gauge on the frame and measure the angle of the
frame.....down to the tenth of an inch.....

Then we move the motor until we have it sitting in the frame at the same angle.....
because the floor is not flat....if the floor was flat ...then we would set everything
level......

I will add a bubble works just fine....but a Smart gauge like the one we use for
camber and castor readings is much more accurate down to the tenth.....

The idea is to have the frame level and the motor mounted in the frame level.....

Hope this helps... and a big Thank you to my man John Q..... for his Talent......

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on June 21, 2005, 07:04:59 AM

TC

Here's a good shot...... laying on his back with the torch about 4" away from his
face....

And feeding the wire.... and SS.....

He's welding in the Triangulation under the seat area where the car is the
weakest.....

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We will spend a lot of time working on that area to stiffen up the chassis....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 01, 2005, 06:51:00 PM

Many pages back we talked about changing the Pinion Yoke from the yoke that
comes on the Rear end that only handles a 1310 series U-Joint to a Yoke that can use
a 1350 series U-Joint....

Well here the yoke is installed and we have no interference issues with this
modification.....

Again ....if the drive shaft is only inches away from your legs .... why would you even
think of using the 1310 and 1330 series U-Joint....... when you can switch the yokes
on the Rear end and Tranny and use 1350 series u-joints...... Safety is number
one....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 01, 2005, 06:54:29 PM

So as we removed the floors and side panels under the doors ...... we started
re-enforcing the weak link under the drivers compartment.....

Here you can see the Triangulation we have welded in to strengthen the box of the
frame......

And as you can see we'll also use the triangulation bars to mount the bar for the
transmission mount as well.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 01, 2005, 06:57:38 PM

We even installed tubes in the center box of the frame to help give it some
strength....

If you stand back and look the X-frame goes from one box of the frame into the
other box of the frame.....

This is important to help the chassis from torsional twist.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 01, 2005, 07:04:21 PM

This is the beginning of the Door bars...... but more importantly ..it's the beginning
of how we are going to make the Drivers compartment more structurally sound.....

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The most important issue is building a bridge from the rear suspension to the front
suspension.....

This will not only help the structure of the frame ....but help the suspension work as
well.... because you want to tie the suspension points on the front ....to the
suspension points on the rear...... and that way you will transfer weight quicker and
more consistantly....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 01, 2005, 07:10:20 PM

Here the door bar is coming up under the rear fender and bending into the rear
frame structure of the chassis....

And yes the door closes on the tube and you won't even notice it's there......

An additional asset is that as we build the door bars ...we'll build them down and tie
them into the frame rail under the car...... this will help in the strength of the
compartment .

Another benefit is that you will have some protection..... and any is more then we
have right now.....

So strength and safety are the goals we have here....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 04:47:11 AM

This is a good shot of the Door bars...... but as you can see..... we are going to tie
them into the Dash hoop bar and they will extend back to the rear square frame
structure..... BTW the Dash hoop all ready has tubes going to the front suspension
...most of them are 3/4" square tubing..... ours has been changed to 1" square
tubing....

Then we tie the square frame structure into the Main hoop by welding the square
tubing to the main hoop tubing....... then we run a tube across the main hoop and
back to the door bar and then back to the Dash Hoop....

This U shape that we make will be re-enforced down to the main frame and back to
the rear suspension support tubes......

Once completed we will have the front suspension tied to the rear suspension and
have the structure working and much stronger for us.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 04:53:17 AM

BTW all of the tubing we are using is 316 Stainless Steel that is 1 1/4" OD X .120"
wall thickness.....

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Here is how we will tie into the rear structure of the square tubing..... on the top
....we'll also have a bar in the middle or bottom ...not sure as of yet.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 04:59:47 AM

This shot gives you the idea of tieing the dash hoop to the door bars to the rear
square tubing to the Main hoop and to the cross bar on the main hoop.....

It will be one big U shape and start to tie the front suspension to the rear..... very
important....

The stainless steel we are using has all been purchased at McMaster Carr..... in 6' ft
sections..... and well be using 1 1/4" X .120 wall thickness and 1 1/2" X .120 wall
thickness....316 SS.......

The fact that we are just more knowledgeable today verses many years ago on
Suspensions and Chassis.... is why we are doing this......

Some may choose to be just like the originals....... we choose to be better and
safer.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 05:05:45 AM

We picked up our Covers for the bell housing and they were done by the same
powder coater so they will match the bell housing ......

I'm sure tech will not have a problem with the way we did this......

Also the drive shaft is made ..... 11 1/2" long and balanced to 7 grams...... much
better then most.....

And it has the Mark Williams Steel Billet Transmission yoke on it using a 1350 series
u-joint......This is one area of the car we don't want to consider anything but the
best....

Also the Kirkham mount for the TKO 600 transmission....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 05:11:15 AM

So now we measure the angle of the Pinion in the rear end.......

And it's pointing up 2*degrees.......(88*degrees from 90*degrees is up


2*degrees)......

This is important to get the angle right on the drive shaft u-joints.....

No angle and the rollers on the u-joint will not turn or roll and will go bad quickly.....
so you need some angle in the u-joint.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 05:22:16 AM

Now we set the Smart gauge on the Harmonic Dampner pulley to read what angle
the crank center line is on.....

And it's on a 1.2*degree angle going down towards the rear end...... ( 88.8*degrees
minus 90*degrees is 1.2*degees angle down) ..... look at the arrows to tell which
way to go to get to verticle.....

So the Rear end is pointed up at a 2*degree angle and the motor & tranny is pointed
down at a 1.2*degree angle and that will give us the 1*degree to 3*degree angle the
u-joint mfg wants on each end of the driveshaft...... this is a very important spec......
and must be right.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 05:27:18 AM

Now we can install the transmission into the clutch and bell housing......

And mount it in the rear using the Kirkham mount on the transmission and the
mount we installed on our triangular braces .....

We turned the Kirkham mount around in our case to work the way we wanted it
to..... we'd rather mount to the braces then the main chassis tubing..... just our own
way.....

By the way the TKO 600 fits in the chassis very nice and looks like it's made for it.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 05:38:46 AM

Then we installed the driveshaft.....

The tranny is a 31 spline Ford...... and the Yoke is a Mark Williams Billet Steel yoke
for a 1350 series u-joint.....

And the Yoke on the Rear end is made for the Spicer 1350 u-joint......and the original
is a 1310 u-joint.....

It might not be a bad idea to go back and read at the bottom of page 17 regarding
how we changed the Companion Flange or Pinion yoke .....

Also notice you have no interference with the tunnel.....and the best part is that
security of mind ......

One other thing needs to be noted here..... the motor and transmission is move over
1/2" to the passenger side...... and getting the rear transmission mounts right is very
important.

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 05:45:59 AM

This is a good Top view of the driveshaft and how it's offset to the passenger side
1/2".....

Also shows the room you when you increase up to the large u-joints

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 05:51:49 AM

The TKO 600 fits nicely over the Chassis Cross member tube...... looks like it's made
for it....

Yes you could use the tabs that comes with the Transmission mount that Kirkham
Motorsports makes....

But we were interested in re-enforcing the chassis as well as mounting the rear of
the transmission....

It was very nice of Tremec to put those ears on the tail housing for mounting
purposes of this gear box....

Works great...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 05:57:55 AM

The Drive train is looking like it was made for this chassis and fits like a glove in
between the tubes of the frame........

Also the oil line fittings on the transmission will have plenty of room for the fittings
and oil filter and return line.....as well as the vent line up on the top of the
transmission..... we had to change the vent to a 90*degree so we had more room to
get the transmission in the chassis....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 06:04:33 AM

This is a good shot of the transmission being move over 1/2" towards the passenger
side..... this is standard on all Shelby and Kirkham chassis.....

Also you can see the X braces we are using on the frame rails to stiffen up the
chassis any way we can.... (the triangulation tubes).....

Hope this helps in your build process

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Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 06:13:09 AM

Jim

You are exactly right about the Lakewood verses a Magnesium bell housing.....

A couple of issues..... one we don't like cutting holes in magnesium.... for the T/O
bearing and the lines coming out of the bellhousing....

Also Magnesium doesn't stand up well to weather and moisture..... not that we are
going to be parking the car outside.....

But the Magnesium plates we cast and made for our Corvette were very light but not
as strong as we thought they would be......

So in the end we decided to go the standard way with the Lakewood and now I'm
glad because it is durable and we could weld and fabricate on it with out much
thought....

Of course the last issue is strength especially with this big motor and light
flywheel..... after cutting and drilling and tapping on this bell housing ....it is very
strong...... more then we realized....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Sole English Gashole on July 02, 2005, 04:26:00 PM

Morris - I am sure I would be called out if I did not ask you this, since I gave some of
the guys a lot of grief about it on their cars a long time back.

There sure is a lot of slip yoke hanging out of the back of that gearbox. I know that
from an engineering perspective, a diameter and a half of spline engagement is fine
for transmitting torque, but I don't like to see that much slip yoke sticking out of the
back of a gearbox - the temptation for the front part of the UJ to set up a "whirling"
movement must be great.

I hardly like to mention this, since I bow to your greater knowledge in so many
areas, but I had my own drive shaft remade because of this.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 02, 2005, 07:07:53 PM

Wilf

Thank you for your observation...... it's always good to have other opinions on the
way we do things.....

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I questioned this myself and the Transmission yoke does have 2 times the diameter
of the shaft installed into the shaft..... but it sure does look like a lot.....

I'm use to a tighter fit on the D-shaft as well but there's an extra 1/2" of space there
to remove it out of the u-joint on the rear end.......and unlike the standard u-joint
where you have a companion flange mating to another companion flange you would
have a tighter fitting yoke on the transmission.....

When you have a u-joint that set into the pinion flange like we are using with the
Spicer 1350 series ..... that is the difference you need more space to remove the
u-joint out of the flange

That's what you are seeing....at least that is what I hope you are seeing.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 12:34:44 PM

I'm liking this TKO 600...... transmission......

We put a seat in the car and I bolted a straight piece of tubing to the gear shift stub
and low and behold it was to close to me.....

Being big and long arms..... my elbows were coming back to the rear firewall.... not
good..... especially if you get in a hurry and beat yourself up.....

So we started looking at things to change.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 12:40:21 PM

The first thing that came to mind was to remove the shifter plate and see what was
under the plate.....

We had heard there were many different place you could put the shifting lever on
these TKO 600.....

Just take the 6 bolts out and use a knife to break the seal between the red plate and
the lower housing......

BTW they were 5/16" bolts ...not metric like I expected them to be......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 12:45:20 PM

And Under the shifter plate was the shifting rod...... and a extra position so all you
had to do is turn the plate around and re-insert the shift lever ball into the shifting
rod.......

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Now you have moved the shifting lever 2 1/4" forward..... what a great deal..... and
easy to do.....

These things usually don't happen this way.... and nice of some engineer to think of
this versatility with the TKO....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 12:51:40 PM

On top of having the ability to move the shifter forward a couple of inches........

You also have a spare nylon bushing in the other shift rod housing.....

That will get changed anyway .... we'll make one out of bronze bushing material
anyway..... will last longer then the nylon..... especially if you start being aggresive
with the gearbox..... and you'll have a more positive shift.....

But nice of them to give us a spare....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 01:01:17 PM

I don't know this to be a fact ....but was told that Hurst had something to do with
this shifting assembly.....

I also saw a shifting assembly that Red at McLeod was making up and it was a very
nice piece ...so I'm sure as these gearboxes get out into the market additional
accessories will be available.....

Anyway, the ball end and lever assembly feel like they will work just fine..... so the
only part that needs to be remade is the bushing in the shifter rail housing.... but if
you don't want to do that just use the spare nylon bushing when you need it....

BTW the shifter lever has a nice rubber grommet to prevent any oil coming up thru
the shifting assembly....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 01:06:17 PM

Also note that the shifter stub is serrated on both sides of the stub ...... so you can
mount the shifting lever on either side .....

Hurst makes many shift levers that will match this serration and they have many
different bends and lengths .....

We ordered one that is straight and we'll mount it on the passenger side of the stub
and think it will work out just fine....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 01:11:54 PM

So now we clean all of the RTV off of the plate and re-apply some new RTV and turn
the plate around .....

But first we put some grease in the nylon bushing...... but not to much ....cause it
won't let the lever go all of the way down into position...... you need the grease on
the sides of the ball not on the bottom or top.....

Then we install the lever into the bushing..... and slightly push it down until the
anodized plate contacts the housing of the transmission......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 01:21:45 PM

And now we have the shifting lever moved forward by 2" .....

The part I really like about this moving of the lever forward is that you are not using
a bent gear shift lever.....

And In all of the years we played with cars... I liked a straight gear shift lever and
one that will click into gear and out.... not sure of the last part ...but the TKO 600 is
working out very good so far.....

We may kill it once we get on a track or on the street ....but for now ...it's working
out great for the build......

All of the bolts get Blue locktite and torqued to 20#lbs....

The Tunnel will have to get looked at ...and I'm sure the hole won't be in the right
place.... but we cross that bridge when we get there.... that's an easy one.....

Hope this helps out is some small way....

We're slowly getting this car done..... and will eventually win the battle.....

Our feeling of urgency is much higher then the rest of the world.... but that's OK.....
we have to learn to live with it....

And build our house ....one brick at a time......Ugh....and building it right is better
then quick.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Foosh on July 05, 2005, 02:33:48 PM

Morris,

Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but isn't that effectively what Shelby did on the
toploaders by turning the Mustang shifter handle around so it was facing forward?

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 05, 2005, 05:06:41 PM

Foosh.....

You bet he did that ......and then installed a Mustang shift lever or Hurst shift lever
bent towards the dash....... At least that's the way I understood it......

Odd shifting position...... we prefer a straight lever and pushing forward and pulling
back..... not rotation around the bent shifter.....

Especially when you are treating the transmission like a delicate watch.... even
though you are going fast....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 05:22:16 PM

I'd like to Thank Wilf ....for making me look deeper into the Transmission Yoke issue

As I called a few of my friends and we discussed the issue of how far the yoke should
go into the transmission .....we got some good responses that I hadn't really thought
about.....

The standard response was to insert the Transmission Yoke all of the way ..... back it
out 3/4" and then measure center of u-joint to center of u-joint for the length of the
Drive shaft.......

Well the consense of opinion was to make sure the yoke is in the transmission far
enough to get to the end of the bushing in the tale housing ...an that means the
bushing riding against the yoke in the tail houshing..... ......

Of course the movement of the rear end comes into play here..... but with our IRS on
the Cobra..... it can be engaged more if need be.....

So when we checked to see how much we were engaged with the bushing in the tail
housing ...it was only 2 1/2"inches..... and when we measured the bushing in the tail
housing it was 3"inches...... our yoke was not getting to the end of the bushing in the
tail housing.....

So we sent the drive shaft back out and had it re-made 1/2" longer...... now in most
cases ....this would not be neccessary.... but this is KMP 259 and we must make sure
everything is right.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 05:30:35 PM

The output shaft is a 1 1/4" 31 spline on the transmission ....

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So having the yoke in the transmission 2 1/2"inches was fine...... but when we
re-made the driveshaft and it barely fit ..... very tight to get it in now...... We have 3
inches in the output shaft and that goes to the end of the bushing in the tail
housing.....

Mark Williams whoses done a lot of axles and rear ends and Yokes is the one that
told us about the yoke and the bushing..... and now since we have a output shaft at
1 1/4" inches and a coupling of the yoke at 3" we will have no issues regarding the
oil leaking out of the transmission or strength of the billet yoke and the output
shaft....

Again Thanks to Wilf for making us get into it deeper.....

Now the really neat stuff....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 05:37:19 PM

Jim was just commenting to JP regarding the stick attached to the transmission.....

Well this is the stick ....Hurst attached to the TKO 600 and moved up like we did
makes it a perfect position....

We got in the car and it feels very natural....and when we get a knob on the stick
...it's feel like it's suppose to .....

When you shift into 3rd gear ...I was concerned it would be to close to the dash......
not at all....

We have about 4-5"inches before we hit the dash...... plenty of room.....

And my arm is not back to far either..... it's sitting naturally right by my side.....
these are the things you work out now instead when it's all done.....

Very happy with the location and feel of the lever from hurst....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 05:42:30 PM

This set up with the dropped floor for my feet and the shifter and door bars makes
this a very good driving position....

We are unsure if we are going to use Aluminum or Delrin for the Shifter knob.....

Both work well ....and both will do the job that we need.....

The Hurst arm is 7 1/2"inches tall and straight and chrome...... we like chrome.....

The tunnel will have to be modified..... but thats an easy issue....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 05:53:08 PM

Now you are about to see why KMP 259 is going to be the best of the best Cobra's
out in the market place....

This car has gone thru many changes but none as good as what we are doing to the
chassis....

Most folks won't even realize what they are looking at and to that I have no
comment.....

These chassis changes we are doing are going to make this chassis the strongest and
best we can make ....

What you are looking at are the door bars ...... but more importantly the top bar ties
the cowl hoop to the rear frame and the bottom bar ties the cowl hoop to the rear
frame ...... and then they are tied together to the main frame rails.....

The quality of the fabraication is absolutely the best and the guy's at the Fab shop
should be commended.....

We all had input on how to tie the chassis together and this is what we came up
with..... then they sat down and built it.....

The best part is when you sit inside the car you have a structure that will protect you
and you have something to lean or brace yourself against.....

And it's all inside the skin.....

All Top shelf fabrication and Top Secret info....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 05:59:12 PM

The Tubing is all 1 1/4" inch ....... .120" wall 316 SS......

And when you look at the way it now is making a big cage or big u around the drivers
compartment...... is strengthing the weakest part of the chassis.....

Plus I don't have to tell anyone about the Safety issue..... .060" of aluminum is not
much protection for anything.....

We have some more tubing to install to tie all of the drivers compartment together to
the front suspension and the rear suspension.....

Building a bridge from the front suspension to the rear is what we are doing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 06:05:25 PM

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Here's how we are tieing the lower bar from the Cowl hoop under the dash to the
rear frame work .....

We'll put one more tube in to tie to the rear suspension.....

You can see how the tubes all strengthen the weak area of the cockpit..... both from
the side and bottom and at the frame level......

Once done we add a diagonal brace or Petty bar to close everything up...... Neat stuff

I've see some week attempts to do this type of stuff....but never anything like we are
doing....

Now you're seeing why this car is going to have to sell for a lot more then any other
.....

If we ever decide to sell it.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 06:10:46 PM

Here if you look forward .....you can see how all of the tubing is tied together and is
going to help in the chassis strength in a longitudual and the torsional part will come
later.....

Plus it's all Stainless Steel...... I really like it..... I don't care what anybody says....it's
kool stuff.....

And I'm sure you can tell we get a Woody just working this stuff out......

It's the same if we were building a new Trans Am or GT 1 car...... just not as
fast.....but steetable......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 06:15:17 PM

This just shows how the tubes go to the front Cowling hoop (Dash hoop)...... and
come back to the rear structure....

Plus getting in the car will be easy and no more exhaust pipe burns...... lift up and sit
on bar and out of the car....

With the tubing on the floor it will be easy to slide up and out.... even for us big
guy's.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 06:19:01 PM

When I was sitting in the car today....the door bars aren't even noticed .....

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We'll put some tubular padding and have a great place to brace our leg..... especially
since you don't have a place for a Dead pedal in these cars.....

Normally you would use a Dead pedal to brace your self..... not now..... this will work
just fine......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 06:23:14 PM

Here's a shot looking down at the headers and the Dry Sump tank....

Thank you Tom Kirkham..... he figured this out and made it work with room to
spare.....

The exhaust bend right around the DS tank and will exit the body.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 06:28:22 PM

Looking at the front shows us we'll have to put some more insulation on the top half
of the Dry Sump tank....

When the motor is working right..... the headers will be cherry red..... so we want to
make sure the DS Tank is protected.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 06:32:33 PM

Remember the front tube going from the Cowl hoop to the front suspension was
increased in size......to 1".....

Well check it out.... we'll have to modify the exhaust tube..... it's a little close....

It's the normal situation.... if you change one thing..... 47 other things change that
you didn't think of.....

Nothing a torch can fix......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 08, 2005, 06:41:15 PM

Here's what we'll be working on next week.....

As you all have known ...we were not happy with the bump steer on the front of

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these original Cobra's.....

It is impossible with the MGB steering rack to get the bump steer where it needs to
be.....

So the fix is to go to a rack that you can specify the length you want and then you
have to figure out how to mount it in a location that will give you the bump steer you
want......

Which is less then .015"inch per inch of bump or droop.....

We had this rack made up specially for us and will work with it to get the bump steer
on the front of these cars where it needs to be ...... for many reasons....

I know some of you think we are a little to passionate about what we are
doing.....and it's for sure we are spending way to much money.....

But in the end ...we have the best piece we can build and we've always built our cars
that way .....

So please bear with me as we start getting into the really neat stuff that makes a
chassis and car work.....

Hope this all helps some one out

And as usual please forgive the spelling mistakes..... :)

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 21, 2005, 07:45:42 PM

Brent

Thanks ..... what does FTF mean?????

XLR8OR

The u-joints we are using are the Spicer 1350 series ..... on both the Rear end
companion flange and the Transmission Yoke......

The Half Shafts that come with the car are fine in high horse power applications
...and work quite well on the street.....

The CV Joints that Tom is using work great.... we were using them many years ago
on the Corvettes we built..... the real advantage is when you use them with a good
Differential...... like a Quaife or Torsen....... the idea is that the car will turn in to the
corner much better and allow the suspension to work and not be overpowered by the
standard rear ends like locked up or spools....

This gives you the abiltiy to balance the suspension front and rear......so you get
rotation on the car the minute you turn the steering wheel..... instead of a locked
rear end pushing the car into a understeer condition...

Morris

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 04:11:15 PM

Well I like that...... FTF........

Anyway ..... we finally got the Petty bar installed where we wanted it.......

Tacked it in twice ...... but it's welded in now........

This is a good shot of how much work we have done on the chassis to make it
stronger in the Drivers compartment area.......

Which is good for Safety as well as Handling...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 04:19:38 PM

This is how we fabricated up the Petty bar...... it's made to come out if you want
to....

So rather then slide a tube over a tube....... which we can't anyway..... everything is
welded in......

We made half moon pieces on each side and then welded spuds into one side and
then bushings in the other side and then we just installed Allen head bolts...... so you
don't have anything sticking out like a bolt.....

Once it's all polished up it will look just fine...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 04:24:02 PM

We did the same thing on the floor..... and it ties into the main frame rail and the
dash cowl hoop.....

This Petty bar does the perfect job of putting a diagonal thru our box which is the
drivers compartment.....

And doing the bar the way we did ....it can be removed if you want to or not.....

My wife just said it gives her something to hold on to....and that's a good point .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 04:32:22 PM

The idea of the Petty bar is seen on many Cobra's and it's a good thing.....

But what you notice is that it usually comes from a Single roll bar over the drivers
head......

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Which makes it difficult because it's in the way of your shifting arm and it's at a angle
going into the floor that causes the removal of the tunnel to be very difficult.....

As you can see here we have it tied into the main rail and cowl hoop on the back side
or the passenger compartment side of the cowl hoop ..... it was to difficult to move
the gusset on the other side of the cowl hoop .... so we elected to put the gusset and
Petty bar on the back side .....

This way the angle around the tunnel is no issue and the tunnel will go in and out of
the car with ease...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 04:39:24 PM

This is a good shot of how we did the main hoop....

First we installed the cross bar just above the body .....this makes the box and give
us a 10*degree angle of seat belts coming over our shoulder...... anything more then
10*-20*degrees will cause your shoulders to get tired and ache..... in a short period
of time.....

Then we put the diagonals in from the lower side of the hoop to the top of the main
hoop leaving enough room to put the Petty bar in .....

Now it all comes together to make a very stong Main Hoop ....and is going to tie the
top of the hoop to the main frame rails.....

So should the frame try to flex in the longitudal or length wise way.... this should end
any thoughts of the chassis flexing in the drivers compartment....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 04:45:09 PM

You can see how we did the top of the main hoop.....

When we get done the bottom of the main hoop will be welded to the small square
tubing going to the back of the chassis......

This will make the back of the chassis twice as strong as it was...... if you look at a
frame ... there's nothing really going back to the chassis...... just this small square
tubing supporting the body and not doing anything for the chassis.....

Again this is part of the process to strengthen the chassis....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 04:54:00 PM

Now when you see the main hoop with it's braces going back to the back end of the
chassis and the diagonals going to the side of the main hoop and the Petty bar going
down to the main rails..... and the Main hoop going down to the chassis..... it is

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starting to come together.....

And I'd like to emphasize that this is just not for chassis flex and handleing..... but
Safety as well ..... not that the car won't take a hit from the side..... but now it's
stronger then before and in my mind that what really counts....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 04:59:01 PM

BTW that's the Battery box ....it encloses the batteries and we just have a plug on
top to jump or charge the batteries......

2 ea 6 volt Optima Red top batteries.....

We had to set it in there to see how we wanted to weld in the gussets from the main
hoop to the square tubing running along side of the main hoop .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 05:03:06 PM

Here's the tip of the day.....

We took the Mid shift plate off of the TKO 600 transmission and welded a bung to
it......

A bung is a 1/2npt pipe thread tube so we can put a pipe thread plug in the bung.....

This is to fill the transmission..... from the top ......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 05:07:09 PM

Since we have our tunnel made so that the top of the tunnel comes off...... without
removing the seats.....that's a Tom K. idea......

We thought it would be nice if we could fill the transmission from the top as well.....

Especially since we'll be using a cooler and filter and pump to get the fluid out and
cooled and back in the transmission .....

This will make it easy and clean to fill the tranny from the top.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 05:14:12 PM

We needed a knob for the Hurst shift lever ...... and we found one at Steeda......

They had a plain billet aluminum knob........ just what we were looking for.....

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The only problem is that it was threaded for a Mustang....... 12mm X 1.75
thread...... Metric....... FTF......

I'm not using anything metric on this car....if I have anything to do about it......

So we had to drill and re thread it with one of our Time-Serts..... 3/8" X 16.... and
the ring below the knob is threaded like the lock nut....so we cut a Time-Sert in half
and used Red Loctite to lock the Time sert into the thin aluminum ring below the
know.....

Turned out very good....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 05:17:13 PM

In fact the knob fit's right on the Hurst shift lever and we turned it down as tight as
we could .....

The Red loctite is a good thing when you want to lock the time-sert into the
aluminum ..... and it didn't turn one bit when when we started cranking on the knob
to get it tight....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 05:22:00 PM

With the tunnel being a 3 piece tunnel ...meaning sides and top......

Then what we'll do is make the top into 3 pieces so we can easily get to the shifter
and fill plug without having to dismantle the car....or at least remove the seat......

I know it's not hard to remove the seats....... it's just easier to take the top off of the
tunnel....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 05:30:23 PM

All in All ...it was a good week..... We got the Petty bar in and mounted the way we
wanted it.... the gussets and braces and crossbars are just about finished and the
chassis it getting to where we invisioned it 2 months ago....

I'm always disappointed when we don't make as much progress as we would like to
....but it is a slow process .... at least to us it is....I travel most of the time and we all
like to put our heads together to come up with ways to do things..... and as you
know 2 heads are better then 1 and 3 or 4 heads are much better then one...... and
the idea's flow out and get tossed around until we decide what we want to do.....

In the end we'll have a nice piece and one that will handle anything we want to throw

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at it..... whether it's on the street or on a race track.....

Hope this helps someone ....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: computerworks on July 22, 2005, 07:37:26 PM

Quote from: Morris on July 22, 2005, 05:30:23 PM

All in All ...it was a good week..... We got the Petty bar [/B]in and mounted the way we wanted it....

I had to go look it up, so I thought I would share:

The so-called Petty bar.


It provides an additional rollcage support.
It was made mandatory after Petty’s horrendous crash in the 1988 Daytona 500.
A so called "Petty Bar" must run from center of cage to upper right front halo.

...not to be confused with:

The so-called Earnhardt bar.


It became mandated after Dale Earnhardt almost had a tire end up in his lap during a
race.
The bar became standard in the rollcage in 1996.
It is the final thing that’s added to a chassis after the body is hung.
The Earnhardt bar is located across the middle of the windshield keeps the roof of the
car from collapsing.
The bar came about after a crash at Talladega when the roof of Earnhardt’s car caved
in after the car slid across the track upside-down.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 22, 2005, 08:10:51 PM

Hey Pat ....

Hope all is well with your recovery...... and yes we keep getting deeper and deeper
into this Cobra..... not sure it's the right thing to do....but it's fun anyway....

Ron

I didn't know what to call the bar we put in ...... and it looked like the Petty bar of
past...... so we did ..... call it a Petty bar......

Guess I could of called it a Morris Bar......or a Wife Bar......... Maybe just a Redneck
Bar......

Morris

Morris

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: HRJ on July 23, 2005, 09:02:25 AM

Don't forget the "oh $hit" handles for the passenger!

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 01:16:56 PM

Well we are trying to finish up the chassis .....it seem like it never ends.......

Here we have installed a Cross bar from the Left Front suspension to the Right front
suspension.....

The ideal situation is to link all of the suspension corners together......

Since we don't have a full cage like a Trans Am or GT-1 Car ....we don't have a
roof...... and we want to still retain the look of the original body.....

We have to find a way to link all of the corners together..... that is why we are doing
so much work on the back of the Cobra.....

So here we just installed a bar that will serve 2 purposes.....

One to link the front suspension......

Two to provide a bar to mount our Oil Filter on and our Oil Thermostat......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 01:21:55 PM

We decided to bolt the bar in at first and see how it works......

Welding is easy and then it's there for ever......

Well it's in a location that if we decide to weld it in at a later date ....it will be easy.....

The benefit of bolting it in........ is when we get the Oil filter and Oil Thermostat
mounted and plumbed ........we may want to get those things out of our way when
we pull a motor.....

With 2 bolts it will be fast and easy....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 01:27:29 PM

Notice how nice the fit is on this bar...... all of the tubes fit good before they weld
them...... and all of the tubes are cut on a Bridgeport for the right angle and
fish-mouth cut..... before it goes on.....

Another issue is that we are hiding the serial number under the drivers side

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brace...... we made sure we welded next to the number and not on it......

Lift the bar up and KMP 259 is under it.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 01:36:37 PM

I never understood why they didn't tie the main Hoop into the chassis......

I guess so they can remove the Roll bar .....or Main Hoop as we call it..... we've
never had a car where you can remove the main hoop..... so guess what.....

We started welding that Main hoop in.....the advantage is that the hole rear of the
car should be tied to the Main hoop.....

With us welding and tieing the square tube into the main hoop the strength will go up
many times.....

And especially as we do it on the bottom and how we did the main hoop triangulation
on the top.....

We are now bringing everything together...... Front Cowl hoop tied to the main hoop
...main hoop tied to the frame and rear suspension

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 01:47:02 PM

So now that we tied the Main hoop to the square tubing..... the Main hoop has
become the structure..... and not the small square tubing that supports the body.....

The idea is to prevent the chassis from Longitude and Torsional movement...... and
building around the main hoop as is done in all race chassis is the standard to make
the chassis work.....

If you don't do this work to a chassis ....it will be like riding a bicycle or motorcycle
over a grated bridge..... where the back wheel doesn't follow the front wheel.......
and that is a wierd feeling and lets you know about flex in a frame......

So now both sides of the Main hoop are tied to the chassis and the chassis strength
is going in all directions....

Remember we are dealing with a convertible here..... no structure up top....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 01:56:57 PM

Now here is a real piece of workmanship.....

Here we have tied the bottom of the Main hoop to the Main frame rail.......and to the

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tubing coming from the front Cowl hoop...... Also look how they have stengthened
the bottom of the main hoop ......

That corner of the chassis has just been tied into the main frame rails by the link
going back to the main frame rail.....

Remember a box is not strong...... put a diagonial accross it and it becomes very
strong.....and that is all we are doing....

So our Front Cowl hoop can now transfer energy along the tube under the rocker
panel to the corner and feed into the Main hoop and Main frame at the same
time......

And if the Trailing link ever hits the tubing .......we have other problems......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 02:04:58 PM

Here you can see how the tube going to the Main Frame rail is tied to the bottom of
the Main Hoop as well as the square tubing next to the Main hoop.....

This idea came from Donnie at Chassis Services and was a excellant idea to tie
everything back to the Main Frame Rail......

4 heads are better then one and Jimmey, Jon, Donnie, and Myself have had input on
how we can make the chassis stronger ......

This is some nice work and in a very hard place to get to.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 02:17:42 PM

The last welding was done....by Donnie.....

Donnie did this ......Left Handed..... With a mirror...... on his Back.......

I feel like the announcer for Michael Jordan and Larry Bird when they were shooting
baskets for McDonalds......

Anyway.... this show the other side and you can see how the tube coming back from
the front cowl hoop attaches to the tube under the inner fender panel which attaches
to the square tubing and the tube going to the Main frame.....

It's difficult when there is nothing there...... but when someone thinks of the
idea....... and how to do something and does it .....then everybody says they knew
that....... Wrong......

Well this idea took almost 2 weeks to think out and figure out..... but the guy's did
good.... and it works and doesn't get in the way.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 02:30:02 PM

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Now you see how we tied the door bar into the corner of the square tubing ...which is
attached to the Main Hoop..... which is the way the door bar is suppose to be.....

I can't tell you the amount of hours that went into thinking all of this out before one
piece of tubing was bent or cut....

The other part that is good is that the Door bar is tieing the Cowl hoop to the Main
hoop on the top side and is providing some safety and protection as well as strength
to the chassis......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 02:41:21 PM

Here you can see the Door bar next to the existing body tubing......

We tied the two together .......

But more importantly.......look at the difference in the size of the tubing......

That is what is in a normal Cobra...... and we just didn't want to drive on a Track with
out some sort of protection....

Anyway tieing the two tubes together helps both...... and re-enforces both tubes....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 02:47:22 PM

Now the Door bar attaches to the Square tubing which attaches to the Main hoop
......

This has be a labor of intense thought and you never know if you have it right ......

But it doesn't stop you ..... you just have to build it better..... Faster...... Stronger.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 28, 2005, 02:54:14 PM

So now when you look and see the Door Bar....... you'll know what kind of process it
took to install just a door bar.....

Although I will say ...many folks will not go to the degree of building something as
good as we have because you have to be able to understand all of the energy and
forces applied to a chassis......

This last part of tieing the rear section to the Main hoop and using the front cowl
hoop to tie to the Main hoop has made the Drivers compartment stronger in both
directions ....in a longitudal and Torsional direction.....

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Hope this helps someone

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 29, 2005, 06:32:46 PM

Thanks to Ron CW....... Kris Kincaid.....and Turk ..... for these photo's.....

They show you what a stock CSX or Kirkham look like ......

You can really see all of the re-enforcement and structural changes we did to the
chassis ....just in the rear of the car.....

Now with the main hoop tied in you can see how all of it works together.....

You think anybody know's how many tubes we put in..... :o :o and Gusset plates....
::) ::)...

And we have a few more to do ..... but up to this point we've installed..... ??? ???

Maybe we can get Turk to give away a years free susbscription to Gasholes...... or a
Sweat shirt or a Hat....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 29, 2005, 06:35:59 PM

And this one...CSX

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 29, 2005, 06:49:39 PM

CSX 4221

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: TURK on July 30, 2005, 05:07:40 AM

Morris,
What's that thing weigh now? 4200 lbs or so? ;D

TURK

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 30, 2005, 06:14:53 AM

Turk

We've added 30 tubes and 17 Gusset plates and a whole lot of Protection and

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Strength.....

Just look at the photo's.......In addition if you look at some of the other things on the
photo's..... like the skinny small driveshaft........ and suspension......

We figure we've added about 150# lbs...... which should put us around 2400#lbs......
which is 100#lbs under what we were shooting for...... I figure we can go to about
2500#lbs before we have to start cutting things....GT-1 and Trans-Am cars are
weighting in at about 2600#lbs with about 650Hp...... and we have more HP....

And the best part of the weight we have put on is it's all below the center of
gravity....in fact it's as low as we can go....and the Stength is beyond what we
expected..... in both directions....

And if we ever get into a situation ....we'll have the best Cobra ever built to
withstand the situation....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 30, 2005, 06:22:44 AM

Sideways

Interesting you should remind me ...... of the date...... the work began...... July 22,
2004...... the day the passion bug bit me.....

I guess Development work always takes longer then we all expect..... The car has
changed and we along with Tom and David K have done all of the development work
to take these car into the future.....

To most folks this stuff doesn't matter..... but to some of us .... it has become a
Passion and will not rest until we are complete ......

Which I hope is in the next 6 months and we'll be able to enjoy the fruits of our labor
next year.....

Testing will be the next phase and the one I like the best......Then we'll prove many
of the reasons we have done all of the modifications we have done....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 30, 2005, 06:26:10 AM

Turk .....

I just saw the 4200#lbs...... ??? ??? ???

You are Da Man..... well a little secret...... I had to build it this way......

Especially when you are as big as we are..... it needed a lot of HP to keep up with
you guy's and needed a lot of strength to carry Big Guy's around......

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This is the Big and Tall Morris/Kirkham......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on July 30, 2005, 06:42:45 PM

Jim

All of those tubes we've installed are to distribute the load ....... :P..... evenly over
the chassis...... :) :)

And I wish I was down to your playing weight...... I'd be skinny.....

Sideways

Dropping the Scoop???

Just don't get in a hurry.... It kills me but we have to do it right....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:13:06 PM

If you look back on page 36 where we started doing bump steer.... you'll notice that I
didn't discuss the front bump steer.....

That's because the MGB rack they put in the original CSX's and Kirkhams have to
much bump steer..... and that's because they are to long.... They are approx 25"
long.... and this will cause the car to have terrible bump steer....

I think the best we could get was about .375"thousandths of an inch...... in 4" of
travel ..... 2"bump and 2" of droop......

That means when you hit a bump the steering wheel will not move but the car will
change lanes cause the wheels are steering the car 3/8" In or out.....

What a night mare if you are going to try and go fast with one of these cars.....

So Tom K and I started working our computer programs and comparing notes on how
to correct the inherent problem built into the cars from the beginning of time.....

As we worked on the problem.... we noticed anything we did to the MGB rack just
didn't work......

The issue was to get bump steer down to 015" per inch of travel..... in droop and
bump.....

As we kept comparing our notes we both came to the conclusion that the MGB was
not going to work..... it was just to long..... 25" is just to long....

And when you are laying out a suspension and steering..... you want the rack pivot
point to be in line with the frame pick-up points on the upper and lower control

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arms..... if possible at all.....

So this meant we need to optimize our programs and see what they would tell us in
regards to the optimum length of the steering rack...... and it came back at 23.4"
inches......

Well that meant we needed to have a rack and pinion made....and so we called
Appleton Rack and Pinion and talked to the people and they were very nice and
inquired about having a rack made to 23.4"inches....

They are one of the few Mfg that can make a rack that is 23.4"inches long .....most
of the other can not because they don't have the equipment to do this.....

Then we went to KMP 259 and cut out the old rack mounting brackets and started
over......

There's a lot of theory and number crunching and just basic knowledge before you go
cutting out your rack and pinion brackets...... leave this one to the pro's.....

So here is where we started....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:19:35 PM

Starting with a clean sheet is good ..... because it goes with the Morris Uprights that
have the long steering arms..... and this will come into play when we talk about
Ackermann...

A couple of objectives were to be able to improve our Bump steer to industry


standards......015" per inch of travel....

Provide a clean and simple way to accompolish mounting a new rack ....

Build in some Ackermann......

And be able to get the lower radiator hose to the motor.....

If we could do this ....then we have improved KMP 259 by many times it's original
design....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:28:34 PM

The first thing we did was to mount the rack to a 3/16"inch piece of Stainless
Steel......

We need to make sure the rack is stable and will not move with any side load from
the big tires we are going to be using ..... 275X35X18......they create more stress on
the rack and pinion....

And in addition ...if we hit something ...we wanted the rack to stay put and the tie
rods to bend....and we will do that by using tubing for the tie rods....instead of the
hex stock we are mocking things up with.....

The Appleton rack is a good product and we are using a off the shelf manual rack

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that has a 2.5 ratio and has 5" of travel...... this will be a little quicker then the
original MGB rack ... but not so fast that it is hard to turn....

The only thing we changed is the length of the rack and the heim bolt holes are set
at 23.4" apart and are a 5/8 X 18 thread.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:35:15 PM

The idea was to weld the bottom tabs to the frame rails and add gussets to them .....

Then use a block to elevate the rack to the height we needed..... which was 3.7
inches...... at the center of the heim.....

Then machine the blocks so the pinion could be rotated back towards the firewall so
we could mount a u-joint to the pinion and make up new steering shafts.

The beauty of this is that this gets the rack up high enough to get a radiator hose
under it and over the frame cross member.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:43:07 PM

So now we have the rack and pinion sitting on the blocks and the tabs on the bottom
.....

This is good because when we start to bump steer the rack..... we'll be able to put
shims under the blocks to raise the pivot point or spacers under the heim to lower
the pivot of the rack.....

We need to have flexibility because you never know if the computers are right and if
you build it will everything work out to the right deminision.....

It always looks ease afterwards..... not when you are looking at the clean bare
frame..... being the pacesetter is always the hardest.... and many times we make
mistakes.... but they are always built to change cause change is good....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:49:08 PM

Now we'll weld the bottom tabs to the Frame rails..... and we'll make the gussets
later

You can see the way we used 1/4" spacers between the rack and the frame tubes.....

This is to allow the rack to be positioned as close to the tubes as possible and have
the heims clear the tubing when they are moving back and forth....

This is a real issue and we'll talk about this later .... but we are doing this to
introduce Ackermann into the steering..... and that is a good thing.... not a lot just a
little....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:53:19 PM

You can see how we machined the blocks so we can get the pinion at the correct
angle when it goes in between the X-brace in the middle.....

A couple of things .... one is it has to be in the middle so we can be able to bump
steer and move it up or down as the case may be.....

Second is it needs to point to the firewall so we can get a u-joint on it and pointed in
the right direction.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:57:59 PM

This is a good shot to show that we are going to make a gusset and weld in the
middle of the tabs that are welded to the frame rails..... that way the bolts will be on
each side of the gusset.

The tab is made of 1/4" Stainless Steel .... it is very strong on it's own ...but when
we but the gusset in ....it will be part of the frame rail..... and will not move....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 07:01:25 PM

And as you can see the pinion came out in the right place to start with.....

Not sure where it'll end up.....the bump steer will tell us that....

And we have room for the u-joint....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 07:17:37 PM

Now that we have the rack and pinion mounted ..... we need to make some changes
to the rack....

The Heim out on the Steering arm of the upright.... has a High miss alignment heim
and it's a 7/16" inch ball and since it's a High mis-alignment heim ....it has a shank
or threaded end that is 1/2"X 20 thread pitch.....

Well we have to use a High mis-alignment heim on the rack ... and the threaded
hole is a 5/8"X 18 threads per inch in the existing rack......... and that's OK ....but
the shank or threaded part of the High mis-alignment heim is 3/4"X 16 threads per
inch..... on a 5/8" Heim......

So if you make a tie rod that has 1/2"X 20 on one end......and 3/4"X 16 on the other
end ..... you have a problem..... it will lock up at some point because the threads
don't match close enough.......

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To solve that problem we bored out the rack and inserted a Hat or bushing with
1/2"X 20 threads per inch....

And got a High mis-alignment heim that is 1/2" ball or hole .....and it has a shank or
threaded end that is 5/8"X 18 threads per inch......which will screw into the tie
rod.....

This will put the threads close enough that we won't have a lock up condition when
adjusting the tie rod in or out for the Toe settings..... ... 1/2'X 20 on one end and
5/8"X 18 on the other end of the tie rod.....

Also remember the heim on the rack is right hand threads and the heim on the
upright is a left hand thread.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 07:21:48 PM

And of course on the other side of the rack ....or the bottom side of the rack..... we
machine the bushing and rack flat..... in fact we ended up taking off .050" off to raise
the heim up to the 3.7"inch height we wanted....

The bushing is made like a hat so it won't pull thru when we tighten the bolt ..... and
we welded it so that it would not turn.....when we tighten the bolt...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 07:28:15 PM

Now you can see another Gusset we welded to the bottom of the Rack mounting
plate.....

This has two purposes....

One is to make the 3/16" Stainless Steel plate we mounted the rack to stronger and
not move in an up or down movement....

Second was that you can notice the side of the gusset is resting against the blocks
the rack plate is mounted to.... this will stop the rack from any sideways
movement.... and make sure the rack stays where you want it in both directions ...up
and down or side to side ..... no movement is good....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 07:31:38 PM

You can see on the other side we did the samething.....

And when you are dealing and making everything out of Stainless Steel 316..... it is a
difficult task and taxes your tool and equipment....

Stainless is just difficult to work with .....

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But when done.....boy is it nice looking....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 07:38:34 PM

On the front of the rack we cut a u-shape in the plate and welded in the step
spacer...... that means we cut a step in the spacer so the plate and spacer over
lapped and then we welded them together....

This makes both pieces much stronger....

The reason the plate is not wider is because we wanted to keep the rack mounting
plate and tabs we welded on the frame rails as narrow as possible because of the
space issue of the radiator hose....it all sits in there very tight....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 07:41:53 PM

Now the Rack is set up 1/4" away from the frame tube the suspensions mounts to
.....

And the pinion exits in the X-Brace like it should....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 07:54:58 PM

This is one very important issue...... secret...... must if you are building a car to get
around a corner.....

Look closely at the tie rod.....and the rack......

From the Steering arm on the upright to the heim on the rack and pinion...... you
have to have a

10*degree angle..... this is very important if you want your car to get around a
corner.....

Let's say you have the 10*degree angle and this has to come as a package because
the steering arm has to be longer so you can accompolish this angle.....

Anyway ..... when you align the front wheel and let's say they are straight......

And if you measured the toe and it was set at 0 Zero......

Now as you turn the wheels and the loaded tire becomes the tire that is steering the
car..... the inside tire will turn a sharper radius.....

So the inside wheel is helping the car get around the corner.....

Let's say your track is 48" straight ahead.....when turned to either direction lock....
the track will be 48.5"......

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Meaning the inside wheel is turning more then the loaded wheel.....

This is the way we build Ackerman and just a small amount into the steering of a
rack and pinion steering in front of the axils.....

This is a must ....and if you can't get 10*degrees..... 8*degrees will work just fine.....
just get as much as you can up to 10*degrees....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: computerworks on August 06, 2005, 07:56:54 PM

Quote from: Morris on August 06, 2005, 06:19:35 PM

...A couple of objectives ....Build in some Ackermann......

Morris always makes me go to the textbooks.... bless his heart....when I see terms
that I have heard, but am unfamiliar with... Â :-*

Quote from: Jamo on August 06, 2005, 07:45:39 PM


Phuk Akermann.

Ackermann is your friend... Â 8)

Terms -

Ackermann Steering -
A double-pivoting steering system where the outer ends of the steering arms are
bent slightly inward
so that when the vehicle is making a turn, the inside wheel will turn more sharply
than the outer wheel.
This is done to compensate for the greater distance the outside wheel must travel.

Ackermann Angle -
The toe-out or toe-in of a vehicle with Ackermann steering when the wheels
are positioned straight ahead.

Fundamental concept at work here....

Ackermann steering geometry is a geometric arrangement of linkages in the


steering of a car
or other vehicle designed to solve the problem of wheels on the inside and
outside of a turn
needing to trace out circles of different radii.

This engineering solution is attributable to Langensperger in 1816, but was patented


by arrangement in London,
in 1817, by someone called Ackermann whose name stuck to it.
The same idea was also developed in France in the late 1870s, by Bollee and
Jeantaud.

When a vehicle is steered, it follows a path which is part of the circumference of its
turning circle,
which will have a center point somewhere along a line extending from the axis of the
fixed axle.

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The steered wheels must be angled so that they are both at 90 degrees to a line
drawn from the circle
center through the center of the wheel. Since the wheel on the outside of the turn
will trace a larger
circle than the wheel on the inside, the wheels need to be set at different angles.

The Ackermann steering geometry arranges this automatically by moving the


steering pivot points inward
so as to lie on a line drawn between the steering kingpins and the center of the rear
axle.
The steering pivot points are joined by a rigid bar, the tie rod, which can also be part
of the,
for example, rack and pinion steering mechanism. This arrangement ensures that at
any angle of steering,
the center point of all of the circles traced by all wheels will lie at a common point.

===

The Ackermann Steering Geometry

Ackermann steering geometry was patented by Rudolph Ackermann in 1817.


The wheels in this system pivot on a rotating member.
The pivot point of the rotating member is attached to the end of the axle,
while the end of the arm is attached to a translating linkage directly, or through
another linkage.
When the vehicle is moving in a straight line, the attachment points of the rotating
member to the other points
is parallel to the direction of travel. As the translating member moves toward one
side,
the wheels each pivot about the axle point, causing the car to turn.
This system was improved by Charles Jeantaud in 1878. The original geometry had
failed to solve
for the problem that in turns the wheels turned at the same angle causing scrubbing
of the wheels over the ground.
In the modified Ackermann geometry, when the vehicle is moving in a straight line,
the lines formed by the pivot points of the rotating member converge to a point at
or between the front and rear axles. The result is that when turning,
the wheel on the inside of the turn rotates at a greater angle then the outside wheel.
In these systems the location of the translating member could be in front of or
behind the front axle.
The illustration below shows the improved Ackermann geometry with the convergent
point at the rear axle
and its translating member behind the axle.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 08:00:37 PM

Here's another shot from the other side.....

And notice how close we have the rack to the frame tubing..... 1/4" and that's to get
the rack back enough to get the 10*degrees from the steering arm on the upright....

This is a big deal.....

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 08:04:01 PM

Locating the heim on the bottom raises the rack up so we can get the radiator hose
underneath the rack....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 08:06:11 PM

You can see how the radiator hose will follow the rack and go on the underside
.....next to the gusset....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 08:08:47 PM

This is where we started .....

With a idea and a will to change....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 08:11:14 PM

And this is where we finished......

We got an easy way to mount the rack and pinion.....

We got the Ackermann we wanted .....

And we have room for the radiator hose.....

And of course the Bump Steer.... should be a lot closer....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 08:14:05 PM

And now we need to make the Steering shaft.....

And get the steering up to the steering wheel connected....

Hope this helps

And thanks to Ron....CW for the Ackermann Theory....

Just my $.02....

Morris

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 06, 2005, 08:25:36 PM

Ron

That is a great illustration of the Ackermann theory...... but that is on a Rear Steer
car.....

Where the steering arms are behind the spindle.......

The secret is what do you do when you have a rack in front of the spindles.....

You can't move the steering arms into the wheels...... so you just don't have any
Ackermann..... At best the steering arms point straight ahead....

And many race cars like having No Ackermann.......

But GT cars...... like Ackermann...... not a lot....... just enough.....

And everytime we put Ackermann in the car it always handled better and took away
under steer.....

That is why you don't want to run Toe-out....... When they run toe-out they are
trying to do the same thing as Ackermann....but it doesn't work because it's not
stable going straight at high speed....the car wanders.....

With this Ackermann built into the steering ...you have the best of both worlds......
stability and turn-in...at speed....

It is a good thing....but very few folks know how to induce Ackermann into a front
steer car...... rack in front of the spindles....

And now you guy's know..... it is a big speed secret .....even in NASCAR..... when
they let them run a rack and pinion....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: roger on August 07, 2005, 12:23:49 PM

23.4"... is this the centerline to centerline of the inner pivot points on each side of
the new rack?

I can see why placing these pivot points ON the line between the upper and lower
A-arm inner hinge points would cause the tie rod to follow the arc of the wheel and
thus not induce any toe-in or toe-out. In this case the upper and lower A-arm inner
pivot points are 24.5" apart. The MGB rack is spec'ed as 24.9" between pivot points
and its certainly obvious that this would induce a problem.

It seems 24.5" is the correct answer?

What is the 23.4" about?

Thanks,
Roger

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 07, 2005, 06:49:00 PM

Roger

24.5" is the distance between the verticle lines drawn from the upper control arm
pick up point and the lower control arm pickup point...... So if you could extend the
steering arm out to the Instant Center point of the control arms then you would
know where to set the height of the rack and the length of the rack....of which the
rack would be 24.5"long ..... and the height would be the intersection of the steering
arm line to the Instant Center point and the verticle line from the two pick up
points.....

This would put the rack way to high in the chassis an interfer with various other
componets.......and cause other issues like instabiltity in side to side movement and
also finding a way to get the pinion pointed correctly in the direction of the steering
linkage......

When you look at what we did ....we lowered the rack to get the pinion located where
we wanted it.......... and moved the rack back towards the firewall and this created a
diffferent arc based on the suspension Instant center location..... causing a different
length needed for the rack....

Once you do that ... you need to re-calculate the difference needed on the rack to
get back to the same bump steer parameters.....

I guess I could have done it manually.... but it's much easier doing it with a computer
program that will allow you to optimize the length of the rack and maintain the
height and distance the rack is from the centerline of the front axils and the distance
the rack is from the steering arm pivot point .....

I'm sure when we get the dial indicators on the hubs and do the Bump Steer .... we
will see that the rack will need to move up or down to get....... or even better...... the
Bump Steer numbers you have now.... but not by very much..... I'm expecting only
thousands of an inch....

Of Course each mfg design is different and so that is why I only refer to CSX and
Kirkham cars..... the others are different..... but Bump Steer is not and should be
achieved as best as it can....

The real issue is getting the right amount of Ackermann built into the car to help in
the handling of the car....to much is bad and to little is not enough.....

All of this ties together to develop a good front end suspension on any car....

Hope this helps

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 07, 2005, 06:50:56 PM

Roger

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BTW you might want to tell us a little about yourself...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on August 07, 2005, 08:18:52 PM

Morris,

Now, You know that you are going to have to explain about intentional toe steer and
ackermann/anti-ackermann effects at various roll conditions.

And now that you have started this dissertation, you really need to explain IC's and
their relationship to the CG and the jacking effects they create.Â

I guess what we all really need here is a explanation of how the Roll axis effects
weight transfer and its true Zen meaning to the rest of us that are geometry
challenged. ;) ;) ;) ;)

Later,

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 07, 2005, 08:39:32 PM

Richard

Maybe we should suggest that others take the time to read the books we have spent
a lot of our waking hours reading....and for the last 30 years..... ;) ;) ;)

And then when they don't know how to make their cars any faster..... bring it to us
and let us cut it up and put it back together.....but we don't do paint...... ;D ;D ;D

And I really like the roll axis and how it affects weight transfer..... but that will be in
the next book that Richard and I are going to write.....

It'll be on your book store shelves in Jan 06..... 8) 8)....$54.95......

Now we'll see how many want to know..... ::) ::)

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: computerworks on August 07, 2005, 09:32:35 PM

By definition, roll is vehicle motion around its longitudinal roll axis resulting from the
centrifugal developed at the Cg and the vertically offset centripetal force generated
by the tires during cornering. Swaybars and springs determine roll resistance which
controls the amount of roll permitted. Roll does not affect weight transfer
(other than the minuscule influence of the change in Cg location during roll), but it
does have an important effect on camber.Â

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I'll shut up now. 8)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on August 07, 2005, 10:32:51 PM

Ron,

You are absolutely correct.

Roll does not affect weight transfer.

It is the basis of transfer.

It is the result of the moment-arm from CG to roll axis.

There is little that I can add to your statement.

Vehicle dynamics are a very interesting study.

Someday I hope to begin to understand them.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 08, 2005, 07:09:56 AM

Richard

You always bring something to the table..... and that is great.....

Keep stopping by to recharge the discussions....

And improve on any of the idea's we have...

Morris

Not all idea's work....... but the few that do ...... will make the difference.......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 06:49:59 AM

Been traveling a lot and just got back and finished up the mounts for the Rack and
Pinion....

Here's the bottom of the mounting plate we welded to the main rails......

This will make the rack very strong and we expect no movement side to side or front
to back......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 06:55:54 AM

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What we really have done here is establish a platform for any kind of rack to be
installed.....

And we have given the the steering some Ackermann and been able to control the
heigth of the rack with the Aluminum blocks....

The other thing that is nice is we can get a socket up in there to tighten the bolts......

All of the welding residue will polish up and look nice and polished when we get
done....

By the way the 1" tubing is .120"wall thick..... very strong....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 07:03:12 AM

Now you can see the Bridge the rack sits on and how we attached the rack to the
plate then the plate to the blocks and then the blocks to the pads on the frame.....

The top plate the rack sits on is positioned with a brace on the bottom side (photo) to
prevent the rack from any side to side movement.....

Also the rack is Centered in the chassis and is a 2.5 to 1 ratio....meaning it moves 5"
total and it takes 2 turns to go from lock to lock....

We are not sure if this is good or bad...... meaning is it to hard to turn the steering
wheel or not.....

If it is ....then we can change the pinion to a different ratio and get more turns from
lock to lock..... making the steering easier.....

I'm sure that will be one of the changes we make after we test.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 07:10:26 AM

We come out of the foot box with a 7/8" SS shaft turned down to 3/4"

Then we have a DD or Double D end on the shaft ...... this means the end of the
shaft looks like two Capital D's back to back......

It's easy to machine on a Bridgeport..... instead of splines..... splines are difficult to


make in a shop..... without the right equipment......

The end of the rack is 3/4" X 48 splines ...so we had to order a U-joint from
Borgesen......

Since we had a 7/8" shaft for the steering column ..... we just used it to extend on
down to the rack..... and machined it down to a 3/4" OD when we need to put a
u-joint on....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 07:15:32 AM

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At first we put the steering shaft in and it fit all the way to the rack and didn't
interfer with the motor or headers....

But the more we though about the shaft.....it would be in the way if we wanted to go
to power steering.....

And that might be a real possibility.....

So after we did this ....we cut the shaft and made a short shaft coming out of the
rack so we can move the steering shaft over next to the inner panel.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 07:21:06 AM

This is a good position shot to show how much room we have to move the rack up or
down based on the Bump steer needs....

Infact if Kirkham Motorsports were to use a rack like this ....I would recommend that
they get one that has the pinion moved over to the drivers side 1"..... this would
open up even more room for the pinion to be positioned where you might need it.....
but you'd have to buy more then one rack to get the rack and pinion people to make
a housing that way....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 07:27:21 AM

On the other end of the steering shaft..... we welded a Sweet Splined Quick release
tube.......

This will allow us to remove the steering wheel with a Sweet Quick release adapter
attached to the barrel of the steering wheel.....

The Sweet Quick release fits perfectly in the barrel and you can cut two u shaped
notches in the barrel to get your fingers in to release the steering wheel.....

This will also make it easy to remove the dash as well as get into the car.....

The only issue is that we'll have to move the turn signals an Headlight dip switch to
switches on the dash....

And that shouldn't be a big deal....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 07:30:43 AM

As you can see .....before we cut the steering shaft...... to make room for the power

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steering shaft.....

The Steering shaft fit in the chassis quite well..... and only the water hose was close
to the shaft.....

Even missed the headers.....and this is a 7/8" shaft.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 07:35:47 AM

And in this shot you can see how much the steering shaft moved over to the center
of the chassis......

And yes we did have to remove the motor and transmission again .....

Had to finish up some welding inside the chassis.....

Now that we cut the steering shaft and are moving it back over to the side of the
chassis.....

We'll need to put the motor back in and install the headers and see where we are and
position the heim that will support the steering shaft and make some sort of bracket
to support the heim rod end.....

Hopefully we'll get that done in the next few days...

Hope this update helps...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 02:26:19 PM

This is what I was referring to earlier when I said we needed to cut the steering shaft
and put a short shaft down on the rack and mount a heim up on the suspension
down tube to support the heim and steering shaft coming out of the foot box.....

This will get the steering out of the way and allow more room for everything else
including the power steering pump and hoses and other misc item that will be
needed....

The U-joint towards the footbox is a Double D on both ends.....and the u-joint on the
rack is a Double D on one end and a 3/4" X 48 spline on the other end that mounts
to the pinion....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 02:31:14 PM

Now we go to the other end of the steering shaft where we welded the Sweet spline
tube on to the steering shaft.....

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Here you see the Sweet Quick Release mounted in the Barrel hub for the Mota
Steering wheel....

Notice how nice it tucks inside the barrel and it's like it was made for it.....

You can also see the female splines and release notches and locks.....

By the way this is the only Quick Release for steering that is SFI approved.....
however as in past discussions..... we are not concerned with SFI.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 02:36:02 PM

You can see the Sweet Quick Release mounted to the hub of the Mota Steering
wheel....

Notice that the Sweet doesn't stick out to far at the end ....... just enough....

And the U shaped Notches we cut out of the Barrel Hub so you can get your fingers
in there to compress the Sweet Quick release mechanism to release the Steering
wheel....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 02:40:06 PM

We indexed the Sweet Quick release into the Barrel Hub.....

And then counter bored holes for the allen screw heads...... Bridgeport is nice ....

Once all of this is done we'll send this barrel and collar out to be powder coated.....

We will have to polish the steering wheel again....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 02:48:16 PM

If you look real close you'll see the steering shaft spline tube sticking into the Sweet
Quick release mechanism.....

Once we saw how nice everything fit......

I might add one of the reasons we went with the Sweet unit is because we knew that
the splines were a tighter fit and you would not get any excessive play of slop in
between the steering shaft splines and the Quick release assembly.....

Sweet does make good stuff....

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Welding the spline tube on the steering shaft can be done at the bottom of the spline
tube.... we welded both bottom and top ...then we had to work over the splines with
valve grinding compound to get the Quick release to fit.....

Sometimes we get carried away.....

Saftey then Speed.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 02:54:08 PM

The Collar is mounted on the same collar for the steering shaft ....or the same collar
the turn signals were originally mounted on.....

We started with a block and turned it down to fit the barrel and be about 1/4" short
for any clearance we needed getting to the quick release ring .....

On the end of the collar where it meets the dash ....we had to cut the collar on a
angle ....... about a quarter of a inch off of one side.....

Because the steering is not flat ....or perpendicular to the dash...... so cut it on a
angle then it fits up to the dash much closer and then you can put in some allen
screws to lock the collar in place..... 2 of the lock screws will hold it very good....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 02:59:42 PM

Now you can see how the collar and Barrel hub and Sweet Quick release all fit
together assembled on the shaft.....

Making the collar a 1/4" shorter is helpful so you can get your fingers in there to
remove the steering wheel...... especially if you have gloves on..... and you are in a
hurry for some reason or not.....

Other wise it looks nice enough to be on any car ....once it's cleaned up and powder
coated.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 03:07:34 PM

Notice the collar and how it fits up to the dash...... the angle was what I was talking
about......

My steering is pushed up as high as we can get it..... so that is why we had to cut a
angle on the collar ...... it not perpendicular at all....

Some cases it may be lower and then a more square collar will be fine.....

And by the way there is no play in this set up....it is nice and tight..... and still slides
on ....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 03:13:31 PM

And when it's done the finished product is fine......

One thing to keep in mind ....is the Motolita steering wheel only goes on the barrel
hub one way...... bummer.....

We didn't realize that until we got it all done and noticed we couldn't get the notches
to the side of the steering wheel......

Then we realized the issue of marking the barrel hub which way is up and down or
.....north and south..... so when you cut the notches for your fingers they are at the
3 and 9 o'clock position....

We'll get another barrel hub and remake the hub......

They always say the second and third time you make something .....you get much
better at it....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 03:24:43 PM

A while back when we were measuring the drive shaft...... and then Wilf got me to
make the drive shaft longer...... well it's cause and affect......

One of the things we didn't realize was that when we made the driveshaft longer it
was a tight tolerance getting it out of the tunnel area......

Well I forgot that the Battery box sits right above the tunnel on the ledge the normal
batteries sit on.....

We just made a box to enclose the batteries.....

We are using two 6 VDC Optima Red top batteries...... and it is in all of the rule
books that you need to enclose the batteries in a box.....

So we did that .....and guess what..... now we have to remove the battery box to
take out the drive shaft.....

And thats not a big deal.... but more of a additional task that shouldn't have to
be......

So I changed the way we are doing our Battery box.....

What we are going to do is use the Quick Disconnects we use for jump starting the
car...... to hook up our voltage.....

Meaning we are going to put a Quick Disconnect on the actual Battery cables..... and
just set the battery box in the car and plug in the battery cables.....

That way when we have to take it out ....we just un-plug the battery cables and
remove the batteries.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 03:28:08 PM

With the Battery box positioned behind the passenger seat an next to the Main hoop
.....

The Quick Disconnect will be pointed down meeting up with the battery cables
coming from under the chassis running along the frame rails.....

We'll just put a Quick Disconnect on the cables on the car and then plug the battery
box into the car.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on August 18, 2005, 03:32:07 PM

Foosh,

That QC is a bit pricey.

JBL has these for quite a bit less. (Of course we never tell anyone that they are
available.)

http://www.jblmotor.com/ProdS/Steering.htm

Morris,

Coming along nicely. I always use a at least a two piece steering shaft and put a
angle in it that will allow for deformation of the total column in a frontal impact.Â
Glad you added that bit.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 03:34:09 PM

So now we have the Quick Disconnect on top of the Battery Box ....which will be
sticking out behind the passenger seat..... which will be for any battery charging or
jump starting we want to do .....

And we'll have the Quick Disconnect mounted on the bottom of the Battery Box to
connect up to the Battery cables in the car.....

That way it is easy to remove the Batteries and do any maintenance or R&R with out
disconnecting cables......

Plug and play....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 03:41:02 PM

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You can see the lugs inside of the Quick Disconnects...... we just solder the battery
cable in them with Rosin core solder..... and then use Heat shrink .....on the lug and
wire....

When you push them into the Quick Disconnect .... they lock very ....very good.....
and it is a difficult job at best to get them out.....

Another thing is these Quick Disconnects are made to handle 175 Amps and thats
more then we'll be using in this car...... Unless it climbs a Power Pole....

All in all this modification is going to work out good ...... cause we can change the
batteries very quickly......

I know.....I know..... why would you need to change the batteries quickly......

Because we can.....

Hope this helps

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 03:54:21 PM

Foosh

Like Richard said.....we paid about $90 for the Sweet Quick Disconnect and mating
splined tube.....

And I thing about 1.5 hours of machine time for the machine work to mate
everything together.....

@ $65.00/hr.... machine time and parts ..... about $200.......

The main thing is that it has to be tight or the slop will drive you crazy....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 03:58:09 PM

Richard

Yes ..... as we were standing there looking at the long steering shaft...... that
thought came up.....

And then the other reasons came up and then ......well you know ..... go get the
Cut-off wheel..... things are going to change......

And especially with a 7/8"inch shaft..... that thing could go thru me in a heart

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beat..... and we even tapered down to 3/4" on the ends..... It was a nice Spear......
Stainless Steel at that.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morgan on August 18, 2005, 06:17:02 PM

Morris,

Will be installing the master disconnect in my Cobra this weekend. When you
installed yours did you go off of the negative side or the positive side? Is one way
beter than the other. I sure its a silly question but I am throwing it out there
anyway. The batter box design like the rest of the car is really slick.

Morgan

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 18, 2005, 07:09:43 PM

Morgan

We have always installed the Master Disconnect on the positive side of the battery.....

The key to doing this is that you have to have the alternator wire that supplies the
battery with a charge ..... be on the battery side of the switch and not the starter
solenoid side of the Switch.....

That way when you Disconnect the power ....both the battery and Alternator is
disconnected from the cars electrical system.....

If you look at one of the pages I did a while back .... you'll see we have the Master
Disconnect switch just above the tunnel and it's wired with the battery and alternator
on one side of the switch and the other side of the switch goes to the starter solenoid
to provide power to the electrical system.....

There are many ways to do this .... but this way keeps a load on the alternator when
you disconnect the power because it's still feeding the battery.

Hope this helps

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 03:17:23 PM

When we left off with the chassis we weren't done yet..... this is how we left it .....
and sometimes you just have to walk away from welding and let it lay..... especially if
you want it to look and be excellant.....

Well that is what the guy's do once in a while and I understand..... when it's humid
out and they get Zapped a time or two and then they stick the tungston in there leg

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or hand..... not a nice thing.....

So we thought about the way we had the door bars and didn't like it and came up
with another idea.....

Someday we have to stop coming up with idea's

But the new idea was important....cause the door bars right now could spread apart
if we hit something.....

So here's where we started from....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 03:21:23 PM

So we decided we needed to address the door bars so they couldn't spread


apart.......

So we added one between the two verticle bars..... and then one to the front corner
of the Cowl hoop and then one to the Rear Corner we have worked over to make it
super strong....

This combination of tubes really make the cage and chassis complete.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 03:26:55 PM

And this is the Drivers side ......

The real thing I want to show you is that the quality of Craftmanship in how they did
the bars and tied the bars to the chassis.....

Look at the rear bar going down to the corner of the chassis ....and how they made
the diagonal coming into that corner curve to match the curved bar they already
installed......

It is Quality at it's finest.....and my Hat is off to Jim, Donnie, and Jon....at Chassis
Services....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 03:31:23 PM

This is what I mean .... how the rear diagonal curves and meets up with the tube
going to the rear of the chassis......

Plus it stays out of the way of the seat and is strong for another point I'll bring up in
a moment....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 03:37:57 PM

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If you look at the previous photo and this photo .....you will see just how strong we
have made this part of the chassis....

We have the main tube running from the Cowl hoop to the rear tied into this corner
....

Then we tied the tube that goes to the Main Hoop into this corner ....

Then we tied the Door Bars into this corner......

Now we are getting somewhere.....

But see how all of the tubes come together......

BTW this is looking down on the drivers side.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 03:44:13 PM

Now Let's look at the front.....

You can see how we did the same thing when we tied the Main tube running from the
Cowl hoop to the rear corner..... then we put in the Diagonial to the main frame
rail.....

Then we put in the door bar Diagonal down to the corner of the Cowl hoop

This will make this corner strong like the rear....so we completed the cage and
strengthened the weakest part of the chassis.....

And it's the most important part of the chassis..... where the driver and passenger
sit.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 03:53:24 PM

And this is the Passenger side......

There were 3 issues when I thought about this part of the door bars.....

1. Making the door bars stronger and so they couldn't split apart.....

2. Giving us a Jacking point under the car...... and this Cowl Hoop is exactly in the
center of the car.... it's 45" from the Cowl hoop to the center of the rear axle.....
Wheel base is 90"..... so we'll just put a short tube coming down from the Cowl hoop
about 2" or so and we be able to come up under the exhaust muffler and pick up on
a tube that is stick down at the corner of the Cowl hoop where we have tied all of
the tubing together.....

3. Giving us a jacking point at the rear of the car under the corner we have made so
strong and is now part of the chassis..... we'll be able to lift on that corner and the
weight will transfer up to the door bars ..... and this will allow us to change or do
something on the rear tire area if need be.....

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All of these issues were addressed when we put these last tubes in the door bars....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 03:57:56 PM

This is the Driver side and you have to admit it doesn't look bad on the entry to the
car.....

Infact with the removalable steering wheel .... it should be easy getting in and out of
the car using the door bar as a brace to assist you ......

But the better part is that it is safe ......

And the even better benefit is that now we can jack the car right there at the cowl
hoop.... right in front of the door.....

Don't you just love it when a plan comes together...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 04:02:36 PM

And on the Passenger side with the Petty bar and the door bars ..... it should be even
easier getting in and out of the car.....

And again looking at the front of the door we'll probably get some arrows and put on
the body to indicate where the jacking point is under the exhaust....

At least the passenger has something to hold on to.....

This is going to be fun .... when they strap in and hang on and be quite...... can't
hear them anyway....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 04:08:16 PM

By the way here is how we tied the bottom of the Main Hoop into the chassis with
tabs and a large gusset tied to the crossbar on the bottom half of the Main Hoop .....

The Gusset and crossbar are both position so we can put a bracket from the back of
the seat to the crossbar....

This will keep the seats in place and never give them a chance to move in any
situation.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 04:11:51 PM

And on the passenger side the gusset comes down but does not interfer with the

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Battery Box....

The Gussets are 1/4"inch thick and add a lot of strength to the lower half of the Main
Hoop.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 20, 2005, 04:19:26 PM

All in all ...now you can see the gusseting on the Main Hoop and how the plan is
coming together....

Battery cables need to have the Quick Disconnet added to them.....

And the Beauty of it all ....is it's all done in Stainless Steel.....

When polished ...it will look great..... so we can have a good looking car...that is
fast.....

Another issue is if you look at where we have added all of the weight ....it has been
low and all of it is below the Center of Gravity......

The only part of the Main Hoop where the Petty Bar attaches .....is above the Center
of Gravity....

So the strength and weight has been put on selectively.....and mostly in the Rear of
the car....

So we should have some real good numbers on our scales when we finally get this
Kat done...... to coin a term David used....

Weight strong and low is fine.....

Hope this helps someone out....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: plissken on August 23, 2005, 04:36:59 PM

Hi Morris,

I hate to back up in your build thread (fantastic info and modifications by the way)
but where can I get a set of engine mounts like yours? (I like your modifications to
restrict movement)

(http://www.gasholes.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3232.0;id=7887;
image)

Part number and source?

Thanks,
Steve Blackmon
Southern California

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on August 23, 2005, 08:06:53 PM

Steve

These Motor mounts came from Kirkham Motorsports...... when I got the car.....

I'm sure if you call them ..they can help you out....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 01:00:37 PM

We are getting thru this build process slowly and methodically..... sometimes it kills
me ...but it's necessary to do the job right ....rather than waste time on doing a job
that will have to be redone at a later date.....

When we finished the Rack and Pinion we decided that we needed to make the
steering shaft in two pieces..... for safety and to get the steering shaft out of the way
of the lower radiator hose.....

So we started here with the short steering shaft mounted on the Rack Pinion.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 01:05:51 PM

We wanted to make a Mount for a 3/4" Heim...... Stainless Steel with PFTE Lined
...good style that won't rust.....

We wanted it to be clean and out of the way ......

And we wanted it to be simple and easy.....

This is what we came up with ....and where we mounted it..... Remember it's always
easy after you see someone else do something..... well we had to think about this
one for a while ....

But then we came up with the location and then the bracket....

And it fulfilled all of our requirements....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 01:10:45 PM

The bracket needed to be strong for both up and down as well as side to side loads
that would be applied to it from the Rack and Pinion.... that's why we put the gusset
on the bracket.

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Also you are concerned with the angle of the u-joints so they don't have any
interference between the couplers....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 01:16:20 PM

This view shows the gusset and how strong the bracket is once the gusset is welded
in....

Also the Heim is positioned right at the point that the two shafts are in there center
position in the arc they are making together..... once they are tied together then you
can move them thru the arc and feel where they are tight or centered ...

Also the u-joints center up in relationship to the shaft lengths..... as well as check
the phasing of the u-joints.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 01:51:14 PM

This view show how we were able to move the steering shaft over in order to get the
lower radiator hose in to the water pump and have plenty of space around the
hose....

Also you can see the water pump inlet at the bottom of the photo and see how we
have maximum room for the hose.....

The angle on the u-joint is just fine..... but when you are cutting the shafts to fit .....
a small amount goes along way with u-joints.....

What we did was to set the length of the upper shaft and then size the short lower
shaft to get the position of the Heim and bracket.....

You need extra hands when doing this as it's like trying to stand a piece of string up
in the air....

Also notice the welding ..... I must say ...these guy's are the best welders I've ever
worked with....

They lay down some of the nicest and cleanest welds you could ask for.....and since
the chassis is Stainless Steel all we'll do is polish up the tubes and joints that
show.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 01:58:36 PM

This view shows how we were trying to keep the upper steering shaft parallel to the
strut tubing coming from the cowl.....

And again locating the Heim is very important here.....

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Also the upper u-joint will determine how much play you have in the steering
shaft....meaning when you pull on the steering wheel ...how far will it move towards
you..... how much play will it have .....

So we set the u-joint close to the spherical bearing in the foot box so we had very
minimum play in and out of the steering shaft....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 02:03:50 PM

Here you can see the side view of the steering shaft between the foot box and the
Heim.....

Also you can see that we will have to remake the #5 exhaust header tube......

The old header tube went over the top of the steering shaft and that was an issue.....
just couldn't locate the Heim where we wanted to .....

So we will re make the exhaust tube and get the steering right......

It's nice working on the engine compartment with out the inner fender panels......

That is one change we will make...when we are done.... make the inner fender panel
easy to take in and out...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 02:09:53 PM

Now we'll go back to the chassis ......

As you know I'm very concerned and have always been concerned with safety.....

Look at this Driveshaft Hoop..... it's made out of 1 1/2"X 3/16" Stainless Steel and
will get welded in at the edge of the seat brackets..... then the holes where the seat
goes will include the addition of the metal bracket that is running under the seat
mounting bracket .......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 02:15:50 PM

Not only have we used Spicer 1350 U-joints ....but we have a Billet Yoke in the
Transmission and a Spicer yoke on the Differential......

And on top of that we had the Driveshaft made locally just so we could see that they
balanced it to 3 grams...... most only balance a D-shaft to 7 grams......

Now we have made the Driveshaft Hoop strong enough that a failure could happen
...but it will not come out of the tunnel to hurt anything or person......

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Remember we will have the bottom of the car enclosed so it really has no where to
go.....

And we want to make sure of that....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 02:30:14 PM

You can see how with the right tools you can do just about anything....

The Stainless Steel is 316L and it's 1 1/2" wide and 3/16" inch thick..... tough to
work with.....

We just rolled it into two half round sections and then welded it together..... that
created the hoop and then made the brackets and bolted them to the seat holes and
will weld them to the edge of the seat brackets.....

The stainless is strong enough to drill and tap so you are not using nuts on the back
side of the hoop..... that way you have plenty of clearance for the drive shaft.....

And we drilled and tapped a hole in some spare SS pieces we had and then inserted
a bolt....... then we started torqueing the bolt until it stripped the threads in the hole
or broke the bolt......

It broke the bolt before the threads stripped..... so we know we are using good
strong SS and will hold up if you should have a failure....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 02:35:40 PM

Good view of how much room we have between the hoop and the driveshaft.....

This is important because the Differential will move up and down ...... and we want
to make sure there is enough room for the driveshaft to move and not interfer with
the Driveshaft Hoop....

We took the rear of the driveshaft out of the Rear end yoke and moved it up 1" and
we had no interference with the hoop.....

You can so see the bolts threaded in to the hoop....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 02:41:31 PM

This is a good clean installation and better idea of containing the driveshaft.....

Running the Horsepower we are running today and making the Drive line stronger
will cause you to make sure you have all of the safety and protection in the
Driveshaft area ....

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By the way ...all we do to remove the hoop is unbolt the two bolts on each side and
the hoop comes out with the drive shaft......

Ease and Clean and Strong..

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 02:47:33 PM

Once we got the Driveshaft hoop installed ...then we needed to see how the tunnel
was going to fit.....

Remember we are using a TKO 600 and we turned the shifter plate around
180*degrees so the shifter is now forward of where it use to be by about
2"-3"inches......

That way we could use a straight stick shifter......

So we found center of the shifter and put another hole in the tunnel.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 02:54:55 PM

The original hole is for the Top Loader and you can see how much the hole has to be
moved if you choose to move the shifter forward like we did....

We did this to see how it all fits......

Since our tunnel has a top plate and it held together on the top with screws...... then
we'll just cut the top part of the tunnel behind the old shifter hole and then over lap
another piece of aluminum to cover the shifter and front of the tunnel.....

This is good because when we want to add any fluid to the gear box ...we'll just
remove a few screws.... remove the top plate of the tunnel...... and use the pipe
plug fitting we welded into the top plate on the transmission....

Should work out fine...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 03:01:55 PM

I know many of you were thinking about where you would locate the shifter if you
went to a TKO 600.....

Well this gives you a idea .....and that is if the shifter is moved.....

And it would be easy to take an old tunnel ...cut it like ours and then use 2 plates to
cover the top so it's easy to get to the transmission without removing the seats.....

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This is good if you want to add fluids or check things out..... especially if we are
going to have the bottom covered up....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 03:04:58 PM

Or you could make the cover plate into a cup holder or a plack of some sort.....

I think the plate is OK.... but we need to change it ..... for more access.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 03:10:40 PM

This view shows you how much you could move the shifter back and still use the old
hole and just get a larger boot to cover everything.....

It is nice when you are shifting a straight lever....

Cause we have been know to miss a gear once in a while when you down shift from
5th to 3rd..... or 5th to 2nd......

Turn 5 at Road America.... Turn 2 at Hallett....... Turn 7 Road Atlanta.......just to


name a few.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on August 31, 2005, 03:13:43 PM

All in All ....KMP 259 is starting to come together...... as it should ...we've been
working on it for a long time.....

And you can see the Shifter and gauge placement and light placement for
warnings.......

Yep I like it .....

Hope this helps some of the folks...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 01:24:05 PM

This is where we left off...... Because we raised the steering shaft to follow the strut
tube ......

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We needed to re-make the #5 Exhaust header..... before it went over the steering
shaft...... I've heard that some go over and some go under..... ours was over the top
of the steering shaft and when we raised it on up ....well that just left us very little
room to work with....

So we had to cut the old header and save part of the tube and then clean up the
header flange....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 01:28:43 PM

So Jimmy started cleaning up the old header flange..... he's very good on a
Bridgeport.....

Cleaned up the old flange and it looked as new as a new flange would look.... then
mounted some new 2" tubing into the flange and started working on the new #5
header tube......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 01:31:50 PM

First he had to go down out of the head .....then under the Steering shaft and strut
tube.....

This #5 Header is made with only 3 pieces welded together.....and actually we only
tacked it together until we put the collector tubes on ........to make sure everything
fits.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 01:35:13 PM

We also wanted to make sure we had adequate clearance above the steering shaft
and strut tube.....

As always the motor moves around quite a bit so you want to make sure you have
plenty of clearance....

And it looks good and has nice flowing bends in the tubes.........

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 01:41:28 PM

And under the steering shaft..... we are looking for not only clearance .....but how
does everything fit and is there plenty of room to move around......and there is ....

It would be nice if we could just isolate the exhaust system so the heat stayed in the
tube instead of the surrounding space...... and you can some what with the Ceramic
coatings and wrapping the pipes.... but I think we'll add another louver like we have
on the side fender ......

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But put the additional louver up in the hood to help evacuate the heat build up under
the hood.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 01:47:38 PM

Now you can see how it came together...... it's called cause and effect..... we
changed the rack and pinion .... which made us change the steering shaft.... which
made us change the #5 Header tube......

But when it's all Ceramic Coated and looking good ..... and working the way it should
be..... I know I'm being very optimistic...... nothing works out of the box like you
want it to.....

Not this winter ....but next winter..... we'll redo the exhaust system and do it in
Inconel or 321 Stainless.... but a thicker gauge metal.....

But we need to get this Cobra on the road first then we'll see about modifications we
need to make....

Now we can move on to the tunnel and finish it up....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 01:52:46 PM

Again ...this is where we left off the other day and I didn't like the way this turned
out......

So we came up with a Great idea..... and one that will really be useful......

Actually Tom K. and I talked about this idea many days ago..... and it is an excellant
idea.....

So this is where we started .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 01:59:55 PM

Since our Tunnel is a 3 piece Tunnel...... we took the top plate off and cut it about 6"
from where the gear shift hole would be.....

Now this works out great..... because we'll have 2 pieces making up the top plate of
the tunnel.....

The Rear plate will cover the Driveshaft and u-joints....... and the Front plate will
cover the Transmission and Shifter assembly......

That way when you want to fill the Transmission with fluid .... just pull the Front plate
off ..... 10 screws ....and remember we installed a Pipe plug in the top plate of the
Transmission.....pour the fluid in the hole ..... install the plug ...... then install the
Front Top Plate of the tunnel ....and you are finished......

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And the best part is I didn't have to pull the Seats to get the tunnel out...... Great
Idea.....

So this is where we are with the back plate installed back on top of the tunnel.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:06:04 PM

Then we pulled out the Sheet metal working tools......

Rawhide mallets....and spoons...... And this started a good lesson in how to form
Sheet metal......

And I hate to keep mentioning Jimmy's name .... but this guy is a Wizard..... and if I
can't do something ....then I know he can..... and together we have made a great
team.....

But this is where we started....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:11:57 PM

So we took our sheet of 6061 T-6 Aluminum and layed it out ..... then layed the old
plate we cut out on top of the new aluminum plate and had our deminisions.....

Then we needed to round the sides to lay over the top of the tunnel..... plus bending
in the top sides gives this .060" piece of Aluminum some real strength.....

Bending the Straight edge ...which is the Drivers side of the tunnel is easy....... just
bend it in the sheet metal brake with the dolly and you have the rounded edge......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:18:08 PM

It's the Compound Bend on the Passenger side that makes the top of the tunnel plate
so difficult.....

Can't put it in the brake ....cause it will bend down the whole side of the plate.....

So we had to get out the dollys and torch and mallets......and start working on the
panel.....

Remember the plate is 6061 T6...... which means it tough and doesn't want to
bend......

So we anneal the side we want to work with and then when you hammer .....it
regains it's strength...... and after you do this many times you can get the Aluminum
to look like anything you want it to......

We had to do this for both side of the Compound Bend and then weld the two sides

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back together......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:24:07 PM

This is what it looked like when Jimmey got done working his magic on the piece of
Aluminum....

And like I said ...the one side is easy.....the other side is a Double Compound side
and was a different story....

The other curve at the large end of the panel meets up with the sheet metal and
carpet that is in the car and the bend is obvious now ....but once powder coated it
will blend in with the carpet...... and other flange...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:27:48 PM

And this is what it looks like when we flip it over and look at the top......

One really nice feature about rolling the edges in the sides ....... if you get it right.....
it fits really snug...and even pops down on the tunnel......

But it is very difficult to get that dimension right....because you are rolling the
edge...not just a straight 90*degree bend..... big difference.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:36:59 PM

Before we put the panel on the Tunnel ..... we wanted to make sure the Rear Tunnel
Cover worked when we had the Battery Box installed .....

And it did..... this is nice because the Battery Box goes over the Tunnel and you
can just remove the top screws in the tunnel and slide the top of the Rear Tunnel out
and inspect the Driveshaft or u-joints or Transmission cooler.....

And again.... not having to remove any major pieces like the Seats or Battery Box to
look at thing before you dis-assemble the car...... saves a lot of time.

Remember we are going to have a Plate on the bottom of the car ...so you won't be
able to see much from the bottom of the car.........

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:45:01 PM

Then we set the Front Top Tunnel panel on the tunnel.....for the millionth time.......

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And went under the car and took a 12" X 1/8" Drill bit....... because there's a lot of
things up in that tunnel.....

And drilled thru all of the mounting holes in the tunnel...... thru to the top plate.....
then came back and drilled a hole large enough for a 10 X 32 screw.....

We knew where to cut the large hole for the transmission shifter.....From the old
panel...... good pattern for us.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:48:06 PM

Then we marked the shifter boot ...and this is the one that came with the car......

So we marked the holes for the shifter boot and will install Nut-serts in the Panel.....

10 X 32 Pan head screws are the best and will work well to hold the boot on the
panel.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 02:55:05 PM

Now we have turned the 3 piece Tunnel ....into a 4 piece Tunnel......and should be
very easy to get to things .....

Like Fill the Transmission..... install the vent Aeroquip hose..... and get to the side of
the Transmission where the hoses are leading out and back into the transmission
from the cooler we still have to mount....
hopefully we'll be able to mount the cooler under the driveshaft...... pump is
mounted on the passenger side footbox...... and filter and temp probe will be along
side of the transmission....

A lot of items down in that Tunnel....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 02, 2005, 03:02:21 PM

Now the Tunnel is done and we can send out the plate and steering column collar and
the steering wheel barrel to the Powder Coater......

Satin Black...... should work out just fine......

And we might just get a Plaque made up to go on the Front Tunnel Panel......

Not sure what it would say..... but we could sign it Morris like Carroll signs all of his
cars..... just dreaming.....

Anyway hope this helps some of you out in your endeavors to build you cars...

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Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 06:22:24 PM

As we start trying to keep the chassis from twisting ...... we started with all of the
tubular work in the drivers compartment and that was strength as well as safety.....

We felt that the front frame rails still had some twist in them..... so we decided to
combine two idea's into one.....

1. First we wanted to stop the front frame rails from racking or twisting with input
from the suspension......

2. We wanted to add some Aerodynamics features to the car.....

If you stand a book case up without the back panel or bracing..... you'll notice that
the box of the book case is very unstable and moves and twist in many different
directions.....

Well I believe our frames do the same thing.....

So we thought we'd add a 1/4" plate of 6061 T-6 Aluminum to the bottom of the
car..... and this would stop some of the flexing going on from the input of the
suspension points..... also it would stop the racking when one frame rail would try to
lift up or twist over the other frame rail.....

The Plate mounted properly would enclose the box of the 4" frame rail tubes there by
making the box stonger.....

And we needed to do this all the way across the bottom of the car....to box in all of
the 4" frame

In addition ...making the bottom of the car flat will serve the purpose of cleaning up
the air that is traveling under the car and we will be able to put a diffuser at the rear
of the car to assist in down force at the rear of the vehicle right over the rear
axle.....this is very good. and works quite well....

So we start here with a photo of the tabs we made to support the bottom plates.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 06:36:46 PM

What you see is the brackets we needed to make to attach the bottom plates to the
frame rails....

The brackets are 1 1/2" X 3/16" welded to the frame rail .....then gussets are added
to each end of the tab to enclose the bracket to make it very strong.....

Before we welded them to the frame we drilled and tapped them for 1/4" X 28
screws......

The holes are 3" apart and the metal is 316 Stainless Steel ..... if you remember we

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discussed in another section that we drilled and tapped a hole and inserted a grade 8
bolt and torqued it until the hole in the stainless steel stripped out or the bolt
broke...... in our case the bolt broke ....so we felt the threads in the 3/16" SS was
strong enough for mounting the plate to .....

Here you can see the bracket welded in .....and the back side of the plate is coated
with blue dykem so we could see where the holes were needed ....... we would screw
threaded studs into the holes and the studs had transfer points on the end of
them....... position the plate where you want it and hit the plate with a hammer and
it leaves a punch mark where the hole has to go...... then drill the hole .....

We only had 4 of the transfer punch studs ....so it was a long time and laborious
task......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 06:41:37 PM

Here you can see the one bracket mounted on the frame rail ...... SS metal tab and
gussets ...... blue dykem ......and threaded screw holes.....

The entire frame will be covered with the plates ...... it took two plates to cover the
bottom of the car.....

The plates are 48" long and 24" wide ...... allowing for the saw cut.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 06:46:44 PM

Since we went to great lengths to cut a hole in the bell housing for the Throw out
bearing..... we needed to do the same in the plate ..... we wanted to be able to look
at the clutch and T/O bearing as needed....

We need to machine a little more off of the passenger side so we can get to the one
bolt on that side ......

We'll make a plate for this hole ....just like we did for the Bell housing and cover up
the hole so the bottom of the chassis stays smooth....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 06:50:47 PM

We also cut a hole out for the oil pan....... even though we are Dry Sumped ..... we
may need to drain the oil pan for some reason......

Again we'll make a plate for this hole as well to keep the bottom smooth......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 06:54:52 PM

Here you can see the front of the plate and where the holes are......

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Also you can see how we have the over hang of the plate on the frame so we can
attach another sheet of aluminum to cover the area over to the body of the car.....

This plate really does make a difference and we'll measure it once we get everything
all done and finished....

You can also see another tube we added from the Cowl hoop under the dash forward
to the main rail......

At the corner of the Cowl hoop is where we'll be adding a jacking point to lift the car
from the side...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 07:03:44 PM

Here you can see the front of the plate ..... all of the holes are for bolts we need to
install.....

Also we'll make a plate that goes from the plate to the front lower valance under the
oil cooler and radiator....

The frame rails are on a 20" center so the tab are off center so the plate lays against
the frame rails....

The plate is 24" wide so we have a plate that is as wide as the frame rails on the
outside of the rail.....

This gives us room for the other sheet metal panels outside of the frame rails....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 07:07:14 PM

This is where we'll put another panel of lighter weight aluminum .....050" to
completely cover the bottom of the car....

After we get everything put together....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 07:12:29 PM

Here is the front corner ..and this is where we tie into the front of the lower valance
under the radiator and oil cooler....

Also we'll be able to help some of the air that passes thru the radiator exit out the
wheel well by opening up the sheet metal from the radiator to the wheel well....

The wheel wells will exit some of the hot air under the hood....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 07:17:30 PM

You can see how the Lower Valance and Lower bottom plate will tie together.....

And the Bottom plate is a bit lower then the Valance...... which means we'll have to
have some sort of spoiler to deflect the air from getting under the car.....

The good thing is that the lower bottom plate will make a good attachment point to
have a splitter coming forward under the spoiler......

This is going to work out like we planned it....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 07:21:32 PM

This is looking from the front of the chassis......

The Lower bottom plate is now part of the structure of the frame ..... but can be
removed as needed .....

You just have to support the car by the spindles and drop the plates .... 2 each ....
then pick the chassis back up by the frame rails.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 07:26:28 PM

This is looking at the chassis from the rear......

And right about where it ends is where we start the Diffuser......

We still have to put all of the bolts in ..... Button head allen head grade 8 bolts.....

Makes a nice skid plate as well ..... off road should allow us to slide a long way.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 16, 2005, 07:30:23 PM

Just looking to see if it's possible to get any of this cool air to the carb......

And yes we did paint the radiator with 259 ...... I like the way Pat's looked ....good
idea on his part......

Hope this helps someone out in their build....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259

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Post by: Morris on September 20, 2005, 02:11:04 PM

David

The ground clearance will be 4.25"inches from the frame rail to the ground .....

Or 4"inches from the plate to the ground on the front and 5"inches from the rail to
the ground or 4.75"inches from the plate to the ground....

This is calculated based on the suspension Instant Center points and Roll Center....

Chuck

The fans work exactly like you said ....but there's not enough room under the
driveshaft when we get everything mounted..... the plate will just get some slots cut
into it for now, and then we'll change it as we see how the temps are in the
transmission.... we'll have a Temp probe in the filter of the transmission line....that
more then anything will tell us what we need to do.....

That's why we set both the Transmission and Differential up for filters, temp probes
and cooler from the start.... as long as you maintain the temps ...it doesn't matter
how much air you have around them.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Richard Hudgins on September 20, 2005, 07:46:24 PM

Guys,

I was going to post a great long technical bit about why a flat bottom is the proper
thing for these type of cars.

But, I have had enough Makers Mark to know that anything I would say would be
gobbledygook.

Therefore, trust me. Unless Morris gets the car sideways at over 170, he does not
have a problem. (And at that speed it really does not matter what the bottom is
like when you show that much plan-form to the air.)

Also, you will not produce a positive down force with a flat bottom and a diffuser on
the Cobra type body. (I mean that you will not produce a lift component greater than
the dynamic lift of the vehicle form.)

But you will reduce the lift.

Which will make you go faster.

The Mercedes/BMW thing was all about pitch moments and front splitters.  That
design problem has been fixed in current ALMS cars.Â

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 21, 2005, 12:54:03 PM

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Well continuing on with the bottom plates......

This shows the tabs welded on to the inside of the 4" frame rail tubes and the 4"
cross member up front....

This is the right front corner attachment point of the plate........

So the sides of the box is the 4" frame rails and the bottom plate is the structure
strength..... along with the gussets ......

It has to be making the frame rails torsionally stronger .....cause the 1/4"inch plate
is very strong just in it's self.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 21, 2005, 01:00:20 PM

The mounting tabs that we attach the plates to are running down the length of the
frame rails and are out of the way of any maintenance issues ......

Attaching the plates will have to be done when the car is supported out at the hubs
so you can get to the plates......

Then once the plates are off you can lift the chassis from the frame rails..... our lift
has rubber pads where it contacts the chassis.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 21, 2005, 01:09:32 PM

Now you can see another cross tube we've added at the very front of the frame
rails.....

This tube will serve two purposes .....

It give us another attachment point for the plate in front of the 4" crossmember.....so
we know the plate is part of the chassis tubing .....and won't twist......

And the cross tube supports the plate and body work going forward.... like the Air
Dam or Slitter or what ever else we come up with to attach to the front end of the
body.....

What ever you come up with on the front end ...needs to be triangulated with the
body and frame...... so the air dam has strength.....and doesn't flex or come off with
just the occasional off road excursion every now an then.....

So we can tie to the Lower Valance and now back to the bottom plate for stength
going forward....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 21, 2005, 01:16:10 PM

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If you look close ..... you can see the attachment holes in the plate to the tab on the
back side of the cross member tube ......

And the attachment holes in the plate for the square tube in front of the cross
member tube .....

I really appreciate the way the chassis is coming together......

It's working out much better than we expected.... And I believe much stronger....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 21, 2005, 01:22:07 PM

We made a plate to cover the hole under the Bell Housing where we'll get to the T/O
bearing......

We just made a plate 1" larger all of the way around the hole .....then we machined
down the 1" area so the plate counter sunk into the hole and only left a edge of 1/8"
around the hole..... then drilled and threaded.....

Now we can look at what we want to with out removeing the plates......

Also we decided to put a NACA duct in on the back plate to get air into the
transmission cooler..... should work out just fine......

Found some NACA ducts made out of Carbon Fiber.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 21, 2005, 01:26:29 PM

On the driver side of the car you can see the Dropped Foot Box......

And you can see how it's going to line up perfectly with the bottom plates.....

Infact we won't have much to do on the drivers side with plates out to the body......
cause of the foot box.....

By the way ...the dropped foot box amazes me how much more room we had in the
cockpit...... I was surprised at the leg room it gave us.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 21, 2005, 01:30:22 PM

This shot is for Bret..... it was Pat's idea and I like it ......

Although we will have a grille in front of the opening ......and you won't be able to
see it.....

It still looks kool....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 21, 2005, 01:34:56 PM

And this shot from a distance..... if you didn't have the front opening blocked like we
will ...... I think it looks great.....and gives the car some character.....

Hope this helps out in your build

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 01:28:19 PM

Now we had to make the brackets for the oil cooler to sit on......

Very straight forward..... 3/16" X 1 1/2" welded up under the Gusset tubes and we
are ready to go.....

Then we will use some rubber Isolators to position the cooler over the plate at the
right height.....

We like the rubber Isolators on these type of coolers...... they are not that strong and
it doesn't take much to tweak one into leaking..... with the Isolators .... it can flex
and you will not hurt the cooler.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 01:31:56 PM

And with the oil cooler sitting on the Rubber Isolators the height is just right.....

Also the cooler is out of the way of the Drive shaft and Drive shaft Hoop ......

But as is normal ....everything is compacted in the small space we have to work


with.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 01:37:03 PM

Here we have the plate sitting on some old barrels after we had to mark and cut the
hole for the Transmission Oil Cooler.....

We also counter sunk a 1/2" portion around the hole so we could drop in a shield
...like a screen plate to protect the cooler .....

That's important...... cause we will from time to time ...go off course and surely don't
want to damage the Transmission oil cooler......

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That's why we'll raise the cooler up about 1/4"inch so nothing can get to it.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 01:42:37 PM

The screen is installed from the top and held in with 6 each 6 X 32 Pan head
screws..... larger head screw.....

It's really going to be interesting to see which way the air flows with the cooler
mounted in this position....

Some think it's going to flow from the tunnel area thru the cooler.... to the bottom of
the car.......

And others believe it's going to flow from the bottom of the car up into the tunnel
area.....

I'm not sure but a Manometer will tell us and also the temperature gauge will tell
us....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 01:47:16 PM

By the way.....this is how we counter sunk the cover plate under the Bell Housing T/O
Bearing.....

That way it is only lower then the plate by 1/8"inch..... not much

And we can install the cover to the plate in either direction..... ;) ;) ;)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 01:53:09 PM

The SS bar with Dykem on it is a 1"X 1" bar and it gets welded in to the main rails
and tabs.....

This the rear cross member for the Front and Rear Plate.... so each plate only has
1/2" to work with.....

The plates will be completely boxed in to the frame rails....making the frame a box
instead of to rails.....

At some point in time we'll get a chance to measure the torsional twist.... but not
now ...we want to get KMP 259 done....

So once we weld the bar into the chassis we have to install the plate and mark it....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 01:56:45 PM

How Jimmey and Donnie mark the plate is with transfer threaded punches.....

The threaded holes in the crossbar has threaded punches screwed into each hole.....

Then they install the plate into position .....

Then you hit the plate where the holes are and the punch makes a mark on the
plate..... '

Blue Dykem helps to see what you are doing....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:01:12 PM

Plate is in place and marked..... by hitting it with a leather mallet...... not


hammer...... my mistake.....

Now we have to drop the plate, set it up in the Bridgeport, and drill the holes....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:04:25 PM

As you can see ....the punch marks in the Blue Dykem ......

Thats where we'll drill holes so the plate is mounted in the rear.....

Also we have to go thru the same procedure on the rear plate....

Now to the Bridgeport...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:07:57 PM

Now we set up the plate in the Bridgeport ......

Set up two guides ....and bring the plate up to the stop guides.....then clamp the
plate down and then support the back of the plate....

Us a center drill guide to locate the 1st hole .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:14:03 PM

As you can see we have drilled many holes in the plates...... all with the bridgeport

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...all on 3" centers....

What's really good about the guy's doing this is that they made the tabs and gussets
....then welded them into the chassis....(4" tubes) ...then made the plates ..... and
drilled the holes to match the tabs.....

And the largest hole was only drilled over size by .007" of an inch ..... on a 8' ft.
frame rail..... on both sides.....

I'm good at some things...... but for sure not at welding and this kind of work...... it's
just to perfect .....

My compliments to my guy's Jimmey, and Donnie....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:17:32 PM

Now we do the same thing to the rear plate to finish up the bolts and holes in the
crossmember......

By the way .... here is a photo of the tabs and gussets the plates are bolted to .....

This is the way it's suppose to be done.... and unless aluminum streches .... it is not
going to move....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:21:55 PM

Now the plate is bolted back in and we can do the rear plate.....

We needed the front plate installed so we could butt the rear plate up to it so we
could locate the bolt holes in the plate....

When completed.... it will be flush from front to the back.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:27:53 PM

We can set the Transmission cooler in place and then make sure the holes line up and
that both fit.....

When we started and did the gusset work on the frame....now you see how
everything is working together...

And it will ..... but sometimes we have to compromise..... and that issue is
coming..... on another subject....

But at least here in the passenger compartment of the car.... the work has come
together and we've accompolished all of our goals of stength, hoops and coolers and
safety.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:34:54 PM

One of the really nice features about mounting the cooler the way we did is .....

That the cooler is the lowest point of the transmission..... so filling the fluid will be
easy .....just fill the transmission and turn the pump on and fill the cooler and
lines.....

Then just fill the transmission up to the normal fill hole...... then hook up the
lines.....

And remember we added a fill hole in the top of the transmission so it will be easy to
fill the transmission.....

And if it starts to get hot ..... 200*-220*degrees we will just flip the switch on and
pump the cool fluid up into the transmission.....

So it doesn't really matter if there's air going around it or not.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:38:50 PM

Now we just set our height so the cooler doesn't touch anything..... that's done with
spacers under the rubber isolators....

And we'll plumb it later with 45*degree -8 hose ends.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:41:31 PM

And this is how it'll look from the bottom of the chassis.......

We need to raise it another 1/8"inch.....

But then it's a done deal....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:47:46 PM

And this is how it'll look from the bottom of the chassis.... when you have a screen
attached.

Also it'll be able to go Off Roading now..... we can make a mistake.....and we make
many .....

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And feel comfortable that we are not going to hurt anything..... With the cooler
raised up another 1/8" and the screen cover bolted to the hole ....the cooler is
protected quite well .... and still moves air thru it.....

So Off Roading is no big deal....

If you look close there is 6 screws holding the screen to the plate in the counter sunk
area we cut around the hole....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 02:53:35 PM

So this is what the bottom of the chassis will look like.....

We still have to put some screws in the rear of the front plate..... that's what you see
..is the edge of the front plate hanging down ..... when we add the screws it will pull
up and be flat with the rear plate.....

Very clean and smooth..... and Flat.....

If you look at these cars ..... there's lots of stuff in a small places ...creating all kind
of havoc underneath the chassis...

Not now....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 03:01:57 PM

Mission accompolished ..... we started with 2 issues we wanted to fix.....

One was to make the chassis much stronger and the way the plates are installed is
the best.....and all of the holes were only drilled .007 larger and fit the chassis..... we
made the box stronger ....

And the second one was the cleaner Aero look for the under side of the chassis.....
this should make major improvements to the way the car goes thru the air at speed
.....

We'll need to build the Diffuser on the Fuel cell and will when that comes.....

Hope this helps out those folk in their build process....

Only Time will tell if KMP 259 is going down the right road...... Knowing it is .... only
keeps me going stronger

And once on the track ..given some time to work out the details .... we will have high
expectations ......

Morris

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on September 23, 2005, 03:24:22 PM

Bret

If we can come in under 2500# lbs..... that would be great .....

GT-1 cars weigh in at 2600# to 2800#lbs...... depending on the motor you are
using....

Time will tell...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 08, 2005, 08:22:23 PM

Thought you guy's would like to see a very cool angle measuring tool the machinest
use.....

When we started doing the exhaust ...we wanted to double check the motor in the
chassis...to make sure the motor is level with the chassis.....

We tried the Smart level device and it just wasn't accurate enough.....

So out came the trick angle measuring device.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 06:12:01 AM

If you look at the scale .... you read it like a old verneer dial caliper..... or a slide
rule....

The black arrow on the left indicates the degree's and the minutes are indicated by
lining up the lines on the top scale and the bottom scale......

Looks like the motor is off 23 minutes in the chassis and the chassis is supported by
the suspension......

We'll take this reading and then take a reading on the frame rails and compare the
two and that will give us our angle that the motor is off in relationship to the
chassis....

BTW the computer went down last night..... sorry for the delay....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 06:18:30 AM

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Now we are measuring the Chassis .....and it is reading 11 minutes......

So we take the difference ......23 minutes on the motor and 11 minutes on the
chassis.... and are motor is off by 12 minutes....... in relationship to the chassis......

12 minutes of a degree when a degree has 60 minutes is nothing and not anything
we need to be concerned with...... especially with the car sitting on the floor on the
suspension..... we have the jack stands under the wheel hubs so we could get to the
aluminum plates on the frame.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 06:23:53 AM

We measured off of the Valve covers for this exercise....but the best place to
measure off of is the carb plate....

The valve covers are cast and have gasket material under them and could be off to
some degree.....

In our case when we compared the valve covers to the carb plate the measurement
was very close ....but that is not always the case.....

The good thing is that now that we confirmed the motor is in the chassis straight and
not on a angle ..... we can get to work on the exhaust system.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 06:27:29 AM

This is the tool Jim had that we used to hold up the exhaust system while we did our
measuring.....

Simple by effective......

You'll notice that we are using the V-band clamps on the exhaust so we can make
changes as needed.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 06:31:36 AM

As you can see .....a tee base and a verticle tube attached to the base.........

Then a piece of tubing you can slide over the verticle tube as the adjuster........

Easy to hold moch-ups in place to position them for welding or bolting brackets
together ....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 06:36:08 AM

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The adjuster is just a piece of tubing that is just large enough to go over the verticle
tube.....

And then we welded another tube sticking straight out so we could support the pipe
...

Then we welded a nut on the adjustable tube and use a bolt to tighten the adjustable
tube in the position we need.....

Works very good for many uses and especially good on the exhaust pipes....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 06:42:32 AM

By the way .... The V-band clamp holds the collector and the muffler together....it
also allows you to rotate the the two pieces......

But what's really nice is that if you don't like the sound of one set of mufflers ...then
get another set and weld on the V-band ring that fits into the V-band clamp and then
you are back in business....

This is a set of Burns Stainless Steel Hi flow mufflers and they feed into a 4"
Stainless steel tail pipe....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 06:49:05 AM

This is the V-band clamp up close .... one of the things you do when you are welding
the ends on the collector ....is that you slide the ring back on the collector about 1/4"
so the collector is stick out of the ring ....and will insert into the muffler.....

This makes for a better seal...... the rings are just a flange that fits up into the
V-band clamp and as the clamp tightens down on the outside diameter of the flange
it pulls it together with the flange from the muffler......

This is used on many of the diesel trucks and has been used on race cars for years
cause it makes it easy to remove and replace ......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 09, 2005, 07:00:26 AM

On the tail pipe you'll see the support bracket...... it will just slide up into the
C-channel support on the under side of the car and we'll drill 2 holes and weld in
spacers in the square tubing and support the exhaust system with two bolts under
the car.....

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And we'll cut the ring into about 1/3 of it's diameter and use t-bolt clamps to hold the
exhaust system to the 1/3 moon shaped bracket that is bolted under the car in the
c-channel......

That way everything is adjustable for different mufflers......

This set of mufflers will be for the track and street if possible ....and we have another
set of mufflers that came with the headers that are much quieter...... but kill the
power...... that will get run on the street if need be.....

Hope some of these idea's help out your build

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 10, 2005, 06:20:27 PM

I guess I was dating myself...... Slide Rule.....should of known better

But now you can read the gauge..... ;) ;) ;)

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 12:46:12 PM

Well we'll start here at the headers...... not much different then any other header ....
very straight forward as to which tube went where....and we'll be using the Mr
Gasket solid copper exhaust gasket..... never sure if these headers seal up very well
....but this seem to work the best.....

And when you take the cooper gasket off ....just anneal them and use them
again......

So mounting of the header tubes has been done many different ways....... some
tighten them down and then bend and pry to get the collectors on.....

Some will mount them loose and then get the collector mounted and then tighten the
header bolts......

It doesn't matter to us as long as you get them mounted on the motor and they
don't leak......

I'm sure you'll have to try different methods to see which way works best for your
application....

When we get to mounting them for the last time we'll use the ARP SS bolts that we
can safety wire ...in an attempt to keep them some what tight..... I'm sure you'll
have to check the tightness many times before they stay tight......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 12:52:07 PM

I don't know why ....or the reason they (Drew Serb) does it .... but the numbers on
the header tubes are numbered backwards..... ??? just don't understand.....

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But we ground the numbers off and put our own Cylinder numbers on each header
tube.....

That way we don't have to think about it..and we'll have these on and off many times
before final assembly....

Just grind the surface and stamp the right number in the tube.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 01:16:39 PM

Mounting the collectors makes you feel like you need 6 hands..... 2 to hold the
collector and 3 to get the header tubes to line up and another hand to jostle all of the
tubes to slide together......

Sometimes we were able to walk up and they would go right together in 2 seconds
...... sometimes we were there for 10 minutes shaking and moving the tubes and
trying to get them to fit together.....

Anyway when they do slide together ....then you start checking how close they come
together and how close the collector and muffler comes to the body.....

Another thing that is very important....is the ride height of the mufflers and tail
pipe..... This is controlled by where you cut the header tubes and allow the collector
to come up and in towards the body..... we ended up cutting the header tubes about
1/2" shorter just to get the mufflers and collector positioned properly....

We have noticed a lot of Cobra's with exhaust systems that are below the bottom of
the body......

That is not a good idea if you are going to put your car on a race track..... Many
times we will steer the car right over the FIA curbs and carry the inside front wheel
and tire over the curb...... but if the exhaust is to low ....well the lower two tubes will
get hit by the curb and close up the tube...... not good.....

So our application called for us to mount the mufflers and collectors so they are even
with or a little above the bottom of the body ...... So we don't damage the exhaust
system if we do go over some curbs or off the track......

Also I'm not sure but we only wanted to mount the tabs at the top just so the
exhaust system had some give to it and could move if bottomed out ....... the bottom
tubes could slide out and in with the movement of the mufflers.........

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 01:26:53 PM

Here you can see how close the lower rear header tube comes to the body.....

We just kept trimming the body back until we got the collector and muffler located
where we wanted them..... about 3/4" away from the body and up above the bottom
of the body.....

Once we got the collectors located then we cleaned up all of the edges of the body

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and made the exhaust hole in the body have some clearance to allow the headers to
move around a bit......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 01:32:50 PM

Here's a good photo of how we did some clearance work on the bottom of the
body.... and you can see how close the lower rear tube comes to the body.....

In our case that lower rear tube is close to the Dry Sump tank as well.....fortunately
we could form the heat shield down in that corner area so we would have some room
between the header tube and the Dry Sump tank shield......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 01:39:40 PM

Now you can see what the muffler support bracket is going to look like ......

We have a ring of tubing and and welded a 3/4" piece of tubing to the ring....

Then we'll cut the ring so it's only about 1/3 of the circumference ...... and this ring
is 2" wide ..... so we'll be able to have it support the exhaust system at the rear in
the tail pipe area......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 02:18:07 PM

We had to make a bracket that would accompolish two different issues....

1 It had to support the muffler and collector, and keep them even with the bottom of
the body....

2 The bracket needed to be flexible because the motor is moving and the chassis is
moving and many times in two different directions......

Jimmy had the idea on how to get this done......

He took the 3/4" tubing and drilled some holes in it and then put sleeves in the
tubing and then the 3/4" tubing would fit up into the u-channel that originally
supported the exhaust system.....

However now we are going to support them by using some Die Compression
springs...... which will allow the bracket to move in a up or down motion...... this is
very important because on a race track you will run over the FIA curbs and you don't
want to destroy the exhaust system because it's to low or won't move .....

Also bolting it into the u-channel is the strong way to support the exhaust system
when using these Die Compression springs....they are made to take a lot of
punishment in a punch press.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 02:27:08 PM

You can see where we cut off the old method of supporting the exhaust system.....

And inserted the 3/4" tube.

The springs are 3/4" OD and 3/8" ID....so they fit perfect on the 3/4" tubing and the
3/8" bolt will locate the spring on the tubing......

Then just stick a 3/8" bolt up thru the spring an into the tubing and into the
u-channel brace......

By the way these springs vary in tension....from 50# up to 1000's of lbs...... so you
can get them dialed into the right strength to carry the load and yet be flexible
enough to move with the motor....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 02:32:33 PM

These Die Compression Springs are 1" tall and when we get them compressed
....they will only be 1" below the tube they are supporting.....

So they are made just right for the bolt to locate them and not have any sideways
movement....cause the ID is 3/8" and that is the size of bolt we are using to support
the exhaust system.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 02:37:10 PM

Here's the saddle for the Tail pipe to sit in and support the system.....

Everything is made out of Stainless Steel on this car...... and that is good ...except
it's very difficult to work with.....

It will get polished up later....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 02:44:05 PM

Now that it's done .....we were able to support the exhaust system up above the
body and added flexability to the support backet to allow the exhaust system to
move when necessary....

All of this bracketery is up inside the frame work and we will eventually have a floor
pan that will cover all of this stuff....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 02:49:34 PM

Then we welded the V-Band flange to the collector......

This is a great way to go...... because you just undo the V-Band clamp and
everything comes apart very easy.....

And especially if we are using a saddle to support the rear of the muffler/tail pipe.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 02:57:31 PM

Then welded the flange to the muffler.......

By the way theser are Burns Stainless Steel mufflers...... they are 3 1/2" ID and 4
1/2" OD..... and we had a 4" Tail pipe added on the end of the muffler so we could
prevent some of the reversion trying to comback up the exhaust pipe......

Muffler is 3 1/2" exit ID hole.....and tail pipe is 4" ID so we have a 1/4" over size
joint at the muffler and tail pipe..... and any reversion trying to go back up the
exhaust system is why you step up the tail pipe size to prevent that action from
happening....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 03:02:54 PM

These are the V-Band clamps we are talking about......

You can see as you clamp them together it is a Vee and the clamp pulls the two
flanges together nice and tight.....

We used them years ago on the race cars ...but I think they have been using them
on Diesel trucks for many years...... and make a whole lot of since....

Also makes life easier.....especially when you are dealing with exhaust systems....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 03:07:24 PM

Since I have the Burns mufflers and the standard Muffler that comes on most
Cobra's...... thought we'd do a little comparing.....

The Burns SS muffler is much shorter so we made up the difference with the tail
pipe.....but that was good because it was enlarged up to a 4" tail pipe......

The standard muffler is only 3 1/2" OD and is longer.......

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 03:10:11 PM

And when you look at the tail pipe ..... you can easily see the difference in the
two.....

The Burns is 4" and the standard is 3 1/2".......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 03:18:04 PM

But here's the photo that really tells the story.....

The standard is only 2" on the ID......

When we had the motor on the Dyno ....these mufflers reduced the Horse Power by
45-50 HP......

We just couldn't get them to work......

When we put the Burns mufflers on the Dyno..... we got back our 45-50 and then
added another 40 HP to the motor.......

And yes the Burns were louder then the Standard mufflers...... but like Jamo said ....
just turn them down at the ground and the noise goes down to the same sound of
the standards........

And in case you didn't know who Burns is ..... they are some of the best at exhaust
system in the country.... and yes these are made for this motor we have......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 03:22:44 PM

The Burns mufflers do have baffeliing and screens to reduce the sound......

But when you are 75% bigger .... you are just going to flow more air......

And flowing air is the secret to making HP......

I also can't say enough good about the way Burns handles their customers and they
do very nice work.....

It is the old story ...you do get what you pay for.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 03:26:14 PM

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When we get it all together ..... this is how they will fit up to the car.....

We will have the Headers and Collector Ceramic coated to a Semi-Black...... an then
polish the muffler and tail pipe......

It will be the only Tu-Tone color coded exhaust system made.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 18, 2005, 03:31:44 PM

And By the Way...... a big Thank you goes out to Pat Buckley and Tom Kirkham.....

Because the Dry sump tank worked out with .100" of an inch to spare......

PPP ....... Perfect Planning Pays.......

Thanks guy's for the help and assistance....

Hope this helps your build out....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 26, 2005, 02:10:13 PM

Dominik

We do have a job ...in fact you caught me in Virginia and will travel tomorrow back to
Chicago..... We sell Heidelberg Printing Presses.....

We work on the car for a week or two and then post up some of the items we
addressed...... that's why you don't hear from me for a while and then we post like
mad.....

When we get the build done and it hits the ground ..... that is when we will put this
into somesort of CD or book format...... and yes we need to give it a index so there's
some sort of organization to this mess.....

Then we'll start the next book regarding how to balance out the suspension and get it
to stick to the track....

Ron (CW) and I have talked about it and think we can clean it up and make it
available to help others....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on October 26, 2005, 02:22:10 PM

DB

My hope is that the exhaust will come in at the 105 DB loudness for the tracks we go

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to.....

I'm sure we'll have to point the outlets down towards the ground.......

Then for the street we'll turn them back out and see what happens......

I'm sure we'll have to keep our foot out of it when we see any of Illinois's finest.......

We are going to have the smaller mufflers Ceramic Coated in case we have to use
them on the street.......and max HP is not neseccary.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 05:50:45 PM

Well we wrapped up the exhaust system and sent it out to the Ceramic Coaters.....

We'll have the headers and collector Coated Semi-black and then the mufflers and
tail pipe will be polished as it's Stainless steel..... should turn out fine..... And the
smaller mufflers will get the Semi-black treatment and I hope we never have to use
them....

So we moved on .....and went out and got Steve Sunshine to make a seat for us......

His quality is second to none.....

We asked him to make the biggest seat he could make and have it fit in KMP
259........

Not that I'm a man of girth...... but we are ..... and I must tell you the Ken Miles seat
gave us another 1 1/2"inches of leg room .....

The car is starting to feel very comfortable..... and that is important for you driving
ability.....

Infact when we were done I have plenty of room....and I'm 6'2" and 300#lbs and fit
very nicely into KMP 259..... we've all gone to extremes to get us big guy's room and
it's worked out....

So here's Steve's seat in aluminum and foam....... and very well built

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 05:54:46 PM

I'm not big on the originality of these cars ......and we are spending all of our time
making KMP 259 more of a Morris Cobra then a Shelby Cobra.....

But I tought this was a nice touch that Steve Sunshine does to the seats.....

A Ken Miles Serial number ...... 033..... good number.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:00:33 PM

As you can see looking at the bottom of the seat......

We require a 20*degree recline in the back of our seat..... So we had to build up the
front of the seat and leave the rear of the seat sitting flat on the floor.....

We are only using 3 mounting points on the bottom of the seat..... thats because
things get real tight in the rear next to the tunnel...... and we will have the back of
the seat mounted as well....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:05:29 PM

Here's the pedestal on the right side next to the tunnel...... also shows how the seat
fits next to the tunnel.....

And yes under the floor is a SS square piece of tubing welded to the main rails for
support of the seat....

All of the mounting points had SS welded into the frame so you are sitting on the
frame and not the aluminum floor....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:10:56 PM

Also you'll notice we used Nut-serts mounted in the Pedestal ......

That way all we have to do is insert the bolt in from the bottom or under the car and
screw it into the nut sert and that locks the seat down.....

Also you can see how close the seat came to the side of the door bars we added.....

We did have to massage the seat a small amount to fit..... but nothing major.....

With the seat mounted with 5/16" bolts and into the Stainless Steel supports ...it's
not going anywhere...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:16:59 PM

All of the Racing Assn's have some sort of rule regarding the back of the seat has to
be mounted to the main frame or main hoop.....

And I might add it is a good rule..... you can't have a seat moving around when you
go around a corner..... we had it happen to us once when we worked all night to
repair some damage to a car..... and forgot to check the seat..... when I went out to
test the repair work we did...... and went into the first corner..... my kool racing seat

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did a 90*degree turn on me and boy were we surprised..... the seat belts will hold
you but not you and the seat...... needless to say we didn't stay out to long ..... and
then we got in and fixed the seat....

So we just welded a tab on the back of the seat....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:33:42 PM

This doesn't look like much ...... but this bracket took 3 of us 2 weeks of thinking to
come up with the idea.....

As I said before ...it's easy to copy someone else ....it's hard to figure it out in the
beginning......

It's like following someone around a race track is easy....... try and lead .... it is the
most difficult part of racing and you have to be ready mentally and physically ...... it
is very hard to lead a race especially a championship race of any kind.......

The problem was not the tab where we mount the back of the seat to the main hoop
.....

It's above the bolt hole.... it's the bracket that you attach the shoulder harness
to....... the way these roll bars are mounted and centered in the car..... the shoulder
harness would be pulling on you from the side...... and that is not right....

First we looked at many different types of bracket we could make and weld to the roll
bar..... but none of them worked because we would have to go outside the roll bar to
make the bracket for the outside shoulder harness.......

We just wanted to leave the roll bar clean and neat and not be welding a bracket on
it.....

So since the roll bar was about in the middle of my back..... we could make a bracket
that came off of the main hoop and the mounting point is with in the 20*degree
angle you are allowed to attach a Shoulder harness to .....this bracket worked out
great..... but like I said ..it took many weeks thinking about it before we did any
welding.....

Another thing in this photo that shows the quality of guy's we are working with is.....

Look where there use to be a Farrell..... a support for the side windows......

Donnie cut the Farrell off of the frame right next to where the door and rear body
meet..... and then he welded in a piece of aluminum into the hole left by removing
the farrell........ then massaged it to blend it into the body..... it would normally be
under my arm and would poke me in the side..... so Donnie removed it.....

And you can't tell where the farrell was ever mounted on the frame.........

It is great to be working with guy's that are talented and craftmen .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:42:43 PM

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And of course we did the same thing on the passenger side......

As you can see we can hook up two clip on shoulder harness belts into this bracket
and they have room too move and yet they attach to one point behind and lower
then the shoulder by 20*degrees....

By the way ....in the previous photo ...notice the inner fender panel... how it was
shaped to allow the seat to move back...... and we reshaped it some more to get the
Steve Sunshine seat to fit and move rearward another 1 1/2"......

With the dropped peddal box and this seat..... there is plenty of leg room and now
hip room as well.....

One other thing we will do is go see our local Harley seat maker and have him put in
a Jell Pack on the bottom of the seat and that will make it much more comfortable....

The Seat is a very important part of the car that many folks don't pay attention to.....
and they should.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:48:53 PM

Here we are showing how the seat attaches to the main hoop with one bolt ..... we
made a nut and welded into the tab on the other side .....

So all you have to do is insert the bolt and screw it into the tab.....

Also you can see how the shoulder harness will latch into the bracket and be
centered up on the body.....

With the three mounts on the bottom of the seat and the mount in the rear of the
seat..... it will not move and is part of the chassis now..... and that is the way it is
suppose to be....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:53:59 PM

A couple of things about the seat..... if you notice the seat is fairly short on the
bottom.....

This allows you more leg room and movement of your legs.....

The other standard seat is long and extends out towards your knees and will restrict
your leg movement....

Also it has just enough side lateral support and doesn't try to wrap all the way
around you ....

And the cover Steve sends with the seat is very nice and fits nice and snug .... all in
all we are very happy with the seat .... it gave us more room and stability and with a
Jell Pack mounted in the bottom ...it will be as comfortable as a normal seat....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 06:59:56 PM

Moving on ..... as you noticed we have installed door bars ...and of course that
meant we had to modify the door latch....

We just took the latch apart and removed the lever..... and bent it backwards so it
would clear the door bars.....

Another trick we did....was to remove the ball on the lever ....actually it fell of in our
hands when we got it out of the latch.....

But we drilled the ball in the lathe....and threaded it ...and then used a screw to
attach the ball back to the lever.....

I've been told these balls fall of quite often..... so now you have a fix that won't come
off again....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:03:51 PM

Now back to the neat stuff...... while Donnie and I were working on the Seat and
floor plates........ Jimmy was working on cleaning up the Aerodynamics on the
bottom of the car.....

This is working out better then we expected.....

Here we are closing up the gap between the lower valance and the frame or
aluminum plate mounted to the frame rails.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:10:45 PM

The sheet metal that goes between the lower valance and the bottom plate has a
rolled groove in it ....and it goes around the rolled lip at the bottom of the
valance...... then the sheet metal has 3 nut serts in it so all you have to do is screw
in 3 screw from the valence to attach the plate on the lead edge.....

This sheet metal has two purposes.....

One is to smooth out the air coming at the front of the car...... And the transition is
smooth and flat.....

Two is that we want to keep the air coming into the radiator from going under the
car..... we will have better ways of evacuating the air that comes in thru the radiator
and oil cooler........

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:17:41 PM

At the rear of the sheet metal...... Jimmy just drilled and threaded the frame plates
and attached the sheet metal to the frame plate....

This separates the air flow coming at the car...... some will go under the car.... and
some will go in the radiator and into the engine compartment.....

Allowing that air to escape that is under the hood will be done by a couple of
ways.....

One we'll open up the side aluminum panels to allow air out into the wheel well
area.....and will move air out past the wheel .....

Two is we'll cut some nice holes in the hood and vent the air out in front of the hood
scoop..... closer to the front of the hood.....

With the plates attached to the frame ....air coming into the radiator has to go out
the hood area...... because there's nowhere else to go..... and that is not a
problem.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:21:57 PM

Now the bottom of the chassis is starting to look very clean and when we get the
side panels on ...... it will be very clean on the bottom and allow the car to get thru
the air much better......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:26:45 PM

Here I caught Jimmy laying on his back cutting card board templates......

Jim is a very talented person and one of the best machinist and fabricators I've ever
been involved with....

And this project has allow both of us to have some fun with KMP 259....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:32:27 PM

The Purist among us are going to have a heart attack...... especially when they see
this photo....

Cause we have removed the Fangs of KMP 259....... for many reasons....

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One..... they are not for lifting the car......

Two..... they are not Aerodynamic in any way.....

Three....They have bit me many times in the head and in the legs and just about
everywhere on my body.....

Those Fangs needed to come off......

So in the rules they require that you have a Tow Hoop on the front and rear of the
car so they can easily hook on to the car and pull it out of a bad situtation.....

So now we have Tow Hoops in the front on both sides.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:38:42 PM

We took some Polished Stainless Steel 1/2" bar stock and bent it to match the
mounting holes.....

Then we welded to 3/8" X 3 1/2" grade 8 bolts to the ends of the u shaped SS bar
stock.....

And now they are much better Aerodynamicaly...... won't bite me in the head or
anywhere......

And don't look half bad.......

Although the Purist will have a field day with them...... but I didn't take the sting out
of KMP 259.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:41:59 PM

Turk is right...... but which one is upside down..... ??? ??? ???

Actually when we tightened them up ....I was surprised how strong they were.... and
to pull on them will be fine .....

Lifting is not there cup of tea....and for our purpose .... it will be great.....

And I like them and that's the most important thing...

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 02, 2005, 07:45:22 PM

And when you look at the front end .....it is cleaning up very nice......

Yes we have many more things to do to make sure it doesn't fly..... but they will
come in time....

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Right now the project is moving right along....

Hope this helps someone out in there build process

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:05:12 PM

Well continuing from where we left off...... in the last session we made the tow hooks
for the front of KMP 259....

Now we are making the tow hooks for the rear of the car......

These are only for the rules and if we should have to use them ...... I'm sure we'll be
in a lot of trouble.....

I'm surprised at how strong they are when we get done........

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:13:02 PM

We took some 1/2" Stainless Steel polished bar stock and cut it at 12"inches......

Then Jimmy went to see the Spring company and they make u-bolts to mount leaf
springs to axle's and had them bend the bar stock to a 2 1/4" diameter......

Then we put them in a vice and made sure they fit the holes in the original lifting
bracket......

Then we put the 3/8"inch bolts in the original bracket and welded the Stainless Steel
bar stock to the head of the bolts...... that way we knew when we welded the bar to
the bolts it would stay at the same 2 1/4"inch dimension......

Hit the polisher again and then mount on the car.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:16:28 PM

When we got done.... they mounted up very strong and I wouldn't hesitate to know if
I was stuck in a tire barrier ....that you could hook on to these hooks and pull me
out....

Also I was looking thru the Pegasus catalog on line and they have new decals for tow
hooks.......

We won't use them to tie the car down..... only when needed on the track....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:20:22 PM

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We decided to mount the Scavenge Filter close to the pump so we could get to it and
check the filter for any particles coming out of the oil pan.....

So we mounted it to the out rigger below the exhaust system..... things are a bit
tight in this area of the motor compartment.....

This way we'll Scavenge the pan and pump the oil to the filter then back up into the
Dry Sump Tank.

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:28:21 PM

You'll notice on this end of the filter we have installed a sending unit......

Autometer has come out with a new line of electric gauges that have a 270*degree
sweep and are very accurate.....

So I called them and got another connector and ordered another sending unit from
Summit Racing......

That way we can install 2 sending units on the oil lines.....

One on the Scavenge side of the pump reading the oil temp as it comes out of the
pan .....

And one on the pressure side of the oil lines just before it goes back into the
block...... after the cooler.....

Then we'll get a real good switch and be able to toggle between the two sending
units and read the oil temp in either location.....

And as you look at the sending unit ..... the oil on this filter is pouring right on the
temp probe.....

We'll have to cut the old gauge out of the dash and firewall.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:36:30 PM

Here's a good shot of the Dry Sump Pump mounted on the motor.....

The rear top fitting is the pressure side of the pump.....

The front top fitting is the Scavenge side of the pump.....

We''ll have to insulate the oil lines in this area to prevent the headers from having
any affect on the oil lines or the fittings....

When I want to pre-oil the motor we just spin the pump ..... or we'll just use the
start button with out ignition....

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The reason Dry Sumps are so good is because the tank has a high level of oil in it
and when you go around a corner the oil will not go away from the pick up so you
have constant pressure....

Another issue is that the Dry Sump pump will keep the Windage of oil down away
from the crank while it's turning......

We've always used them and the dry sump just eliminates another issue you might
have to be concerned with....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:43:14 PM

Here's a nice idea...... if you look closely you'll see a drain petcock......

Well since we had to re-make the lower SS radiator hose because the rack and
pinion.....

We put a dip in the pipe right between the bottom flat structure plate and the front
valance......

The lower radiator tube will always stay in the car..... so to drain the cooling system
we just drain it and don't have to remove panels or other parts.....

Also since we will leave the SS tubing in the car you just cut the short segment of
hose mating the SShose to the radiator and then take the Radiator or motor out of
the car.....

We are constantly trying to stay ahead of and re think everything we do....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:47:52 PM

Here's another nice idea..... how many times have you wished you could jack you car
up from the side of the car.......

Well ...we installed some side jacking points......

If you measure the wheel base ...the half way point is at the cowl tube ...... so that is
the place to install a jacking point....

Because the weight will be close to 50/50......

Well we have the dropped foot box ...so we had to move the jacking points back a
inch or so to be able to get the jack in and lift on the jacking point and not the foot
box....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:51:40 PM

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This is the Drivers side where the lowered foot box is ......

With all of the tubes we have added to the back of the chassis..... our jacking points
moved back an inch or so will be balanced fine.....

And with the low pad height jacks on the market ...this will make it easy to jack the
car and get it up on jack stands .......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 11, 2005, 07:56:38 PM

This is a shot from the front side on the passenger side of the jacking point and you
can see the muffler hanging bracket as well....

When we get the floors made to cover the bottom of the car ...the jacking points
should just stick thru the floors and we'll be able to come up under the muffler and
catch the jacking point and lift the car.....

I hope some of these idea's help out in your build project or mods to your current
car....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 12, 2005, 03:22:59 PM

JP

KMP 259 has bigger brakes then the Viper, ZO6, so stopping we should be able to
stop faster.....

It will have more HP then either...... so like you said straight line speed should be
better....

Weight will be around 2600# lbs..... so it should be lighter then ZO6 or Viper....

We've designed the suspension to handle the power and side forces generated in
cornering.....and we've added 18"wheels and are using 275 fronts and 335 rears.....
so should be able to out handle the other cars.....

Aerodynamics we are working on right now and if they work .... never sure .... we
should be able to run as fast or equal to both cars......

So like JP said .... I've addressed all of the short comings of the standard Cobra we
should be able to have some real fun with this vehicle....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 12, 2005, 08:01:36 PM

JP

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KMP 259 will be much faster then the cars you mentioned..... it is a insult to KMP 259
to even think those cars are in the same league with KMP 259

Infact KMP 259 will be much faster then the ZO6 or Viper......

The fact that KMP 259 has 500#lbs of less weight and and 200 more HP has a great
deal of meaning..... and a 3.7 HP/weight ratio is down there with our GT-1 cars......
The fact that 100#lbs of weight is equal to 1 second on a race track...... and I don't
know what an additional 200 HP will do ..... but I do know that the Trans-Am and
GT-1 cars are running about the same HP....

I'm actually surprised you haven't realized what you have been watching us
build....because it's beyond any Cobra I've seen built by anybody......

What you guy's don't understand is that with the chassis we have built..... and the
strength we have put into it..... it is 2nd to none.... ..... there isn't a steet car that
can run with it ....

All I have to do is work out the suspension..... Roll Centers and Shock valveing and
then .......

Well ..... the torsional ridgity of KMP 259 is stronger then the ZO6 or Viper..... and
that is what makes a chassis fast.....

So I'm sorry you guy's haven't understood what we have been building ...... but I will
tell you that there is no Porsch GT 2 or 3 car going to compete or Corvette or Viper
that is a street able car that will be able to compete with KMP 259...... the straight
aways are mine....and the corners will be developed.....

KMP 259 will be the fastest Corbra developed and built on a Cobra frame that has
ever come along..... and I'll be glad to play with the other Cobra's that have tried
Aerodynamic body work ...... but not any of them were street cars.....

And it will be easy to establish because like I said before...... Track Times don't
lie...... and we have all of the times at Road America or Any track we want to go
to.....

I sure you can tell I get fired up about KMP 259 ..... but the development work we
have done is like having a baby and I can't wait to get it on a track and start the
development work.....

Wow .... that felt good ..... JP.... keep me fired up ..... That's when we do our best
work....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 12, 2005, 08:38:59 PM

John

We have always used the nutserts that are aluminum..... these type of nutserts are
the stronger of the various types.....

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Infact they can handle more torque then any of the other types of nutserts......

You are right the material range is about .030"inch and up for these types of nut
serts

We get them from Aircraft Spruce ..... same as Wicks.....

And we use these nutserts in everything .... steel ....aluminum .....

The only thing we have to be aware of ...is when you are using the 8-32 or 10-32
nutserts..... get some extra Allen screws to install them with..... cause we will round
out the head of the allen screw..... especially when we over tighten them...... and we
haven't stripped any of them yet....but we've rounded the head of the allen
screws......

And JP will learn......

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 12, 2005, 08:52:15 PM

Scott

It's the ratio of Track to Wheelbase..... as long as that wheel base is right then the
Tuning is the same regardless of the wheelbase.....

Wheelbase on Porsche is short...... and they go very quick.....

Also Transition from power to suspension is very important..... most folks don't know
the difference from oversteer or power oversteer.....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 12, 2005, 09:05:32 PM

Here..... just a peek ...... there will be more coming when we get closer to our
idea's....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 12, 2005, 09:43:21 PM

Foosh

You bet the items you mentioned are things we are addressing...... we don't want to
lay out to much about the things we are doing until they get done.....

But we will address the large opening and how we'll divided the air up for other

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needs ..... and the Windshield makes the head on image to large ...... and the
cockpit opening is very large .....

But the best part is the bottom side of the car..... and the down force we'll be able to
generate.....

I do think we'll be stable at speed..... just getting there will be the interesting part....

"Knowing what you are doing ....at the time you are doing it"....... is one of the most
important key ingredients

And like Mark Donahue said ..... "many times we should of looked further into why
the car was doing something"....

Morris

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Sole English Gashole on November 14, 2005, 05:32:14 AM

Morris - one area that always concerns me when I indulge in a little high speed fun in
the Cobra is the windscreen (sorry, windshield).

Held in place only by 3 or so tiny little machine screws at each end, I worry about the
effects that windblast at 150mph or so has on that assembly.

Many racing Cobras I see have the little individual "eyebrow" shields only, not a full
'screen - apart from the aerodynamic advantages, I wonder if that is also because
others share my concern about the strength of that windshield assembly?

What do you think?

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 08:37:06 AM

Wilf

I agree with everything you said and was concerned about the Wind shield as
well.......

So we decided to cut it down to 7" tall on the sides and that will put it at 4 1/2" in
the middle.....

but more importantly we'll lean it back a few more degree's ..... that will make the
silhouette frontal view much smaller and less air to push.....

Also it will act as a deflector to deflect the wind up just enough to get over our
head...... ....

The reason we want the windshield going all the way across the car is because the
aerodynamic's needs to be consistant across the car and not on one side ..... and the
silhouette from the front will be just enough to dump the air into the passenger

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compartment.....which will need some sort of tonneau cover.......to start to smooth


out the air flow again.....

I think that cutting the windshield down and leaning it back will give the car a great
Aero look as well.....

Google city though..... Like riding the Harley..... or open cockpit racing......

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 06:52:23 PM

Well here's where we start...... we cut some cardboard out until we get something
that will work the way we want it to.....

We want to control the air in front of the Cobra .... and the air going under the car as
well.....

Here we are trying to get some idea of the shape of the beginning air dam and then
go from there....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 06:55:47 PM

And we did the same on the Drivers side......

The idea is to see how the curves of the nose affect the cardboard and is it going to
be possible to bend and attach something to the nose of the car......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 07:01:57 PM

Then we step back and look at what we've done to evaluate ......

Working with Cardboard makes it easy to make changes.....

Right now we are just looking at the curves and not the bottom yet..... just how does
it work.....and do we still retain the look of the Cobra.....

Also on the sides of the air dam the wheels will still stick out some what..... and we
may have to use a winglet to aid the air flow over the tire.....

But I like the Vee shape of the nose of the Cobra....so we are trying to retain some of
that....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 07:07:18 PM

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Then we walk around and look at the front end from many different angles.....

There's actually not much room to work with on the Cobra......

We are going to make the two support pieces first and run them into the oil cooler
hole .....

Then we'll make a lower piece that will attach across the bottom of the support
pieces and tie the Valance in the center to the outer support pieces.....

Then once we have that lower piece we put a splitter on the bottom....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 07:13:18 PM

Then we start looking at the bottom of the car and at the plates on the bottom.....

We start looking at how much lower the frame of the chassis is below the lower
valance......

Looking at this makes you think no wonder people have such a hard time with these
cars...... the Lower Valance just acts like a boat and air goes right under it and hits
the chassis and starts to lift it.....

The Valance is at least 1 1/2"inches higher then the frame rails...... not good....

So now we start figuring out where we want to stop the support pieces and attach to
the body and then make a piece that will go across the lower valance ..... the air dam
is what we are talking about......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 07:23:22 PM

Here you can see the square tubing we welded in to support the lower frame rail
plate......

So it's easy to see that air could lift these cars very easy and there is no control of
how to re direct the flow of air at the nose of the car.....

We do have a panel that goes between the lower valance and the lower frame rail
plate.... but when we are done we'll also have a panel that will go from the air dam
and splitter back to the lower frame rail plate ....

And if the frame ride height is 4 1/2"inches .... that will mean we'll have to bring the
air dam down from the valance about 3 1/2"inches....... 1 1/2"inches to get the
valance equal to the frame rails..... and another 2" below the frame rails ....and that
dimension also has to include the splitter.....

Also if you figure that we'll have about 2" of bump in our shocks..... that will give us
room so we don't knock the splitter off when we go in the bump condition..... around
a corner or off track or Banked oval.....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

Here we are looking at the inside of the fender to see how we can curve the splitter
up towards the tire and create some down force as well....

The Cobra just doesn't have much room to really do this sort of stuff ...but we'll
figure something out....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 14, 2005, 07:34:09 PM

We just keep looking at the shape and how we believe the air will go around the nose
and under it and over it.....

Yes there are many more things we'll be doing to the air intake and the hood and
other stuff....

But this gets us started.....

Now we have to go get some Gutter Flashing..... the aluminum that they use to
make gutters..... because its easy to work with.

Aluminum is different then Cardboard ....so we have to make some more templates
out of Aluminum and the Flashing works great.... it will tell us how it bends and
shapes to the nose and that's what's important now....

Then we'll start all over again making new templates..... and see what kind of
changes we need to make.....

Hope this helps some folks out...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 18, 2005, 07:22:30 PM

So now we start figuring out how the splitter is going to attach and at what height we
want to make it.....

We take our splitter (flat sheet metal on the bottom....and figure out how we will
attach it to the car....

Setting the height of the slitter is very important so we control the air going under
the chassis and create some down force with it....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 18, 2005, 07:29:06 PM

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We attach the splitter in the rear to the frame rail plate ...... then make up some
cross members to support the plate while we construct the front panels.....

We have lowered the splitter by one inch...... by using the channel braces to clamp
everything to.....

The amazing observation is that the frame of the car is a lot lower then the body ....

It is amazing these cars don't fly every time they get up to any speed.....

We will try to make sure that we control the air under the car in both the front as
well as the back .....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 18, 2005, 07:33:07 PM

Here Jimmy is fitting one of the front panels we use between the splitter and the
body.....

We have made our templates....and flashing aluminum..... and now we are making
panels out of 6061..... not the best to be bending...... but that's what we have.....

We also have to anneal the aluminum to bend a flange on the edge to mate the panel
to the body ......

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 18, 2005, 07:35:19 PM

Here we got the passenger side panel cut out and will start trimming it and bending
the surface so we get the fit we need.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 18, 2005, 07:39:28 PM

And this is on the drivers side......

You can also see the bends in the surface we have to make and then bend a flange in
the top 3/4"inch to mount it to the body.....

We may have to get some 5052 Aluminum because it bends better.....

The reason we are using 6061 now is because we may have to weld some flanges to
it....so we thought we'd start with the 6061 first and see how it goes.....

Nothing is easy and it just take time to get this stuff done....

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 18, 2005, 07:45:43 PM

Now we have both panels cut and trimmed and now we just shape them..... or
remake more ..... not sure which way it will work out....

The splitter is to low to run on the street ....so we end up cutting the front panels
just below the oil cooler opening and run that for the street .....

Then we'll put the splitter and lower front panels on for the track.....

We need the lower dam and splitter..... to control the air..... at speed....

We'll get some more done this week and hopefully get it close to plumbing and final
wiring...

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 05:50:41 AM

Well as you can see we started drilling holes in the body......

Once you drill the first hole the rest are easy..... besides .... Donnie cut the Farrell off
over by the door and welded a piece of Aluminum back in place over the Stainless
Steel frame and sanded it and you can't tell there was ever a Farrell there.....

If we didn't like what we were doing ....then we would weld up the holes and grind
and sand them back to the normal look......

Here Jimmy is marking the splitter to see where and if we want to cut it....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 05:58:43 AM

We have different idea's on what we want to do to the shape of the front Air Dam
and Splitter.....

So we build it over size and then draw the other lines as to where we would cut it
and then look everything over to see if there is something we have missed....

You might have noticed in the other photo we use Coffee cans for radius marks.....
they seem to work the best.... or if we have to ....we have the guides with all of the
different hole sizes..... but it's easier to just grab a coffee can....

Now Jim is drawing a line that is following the fender down from the Air Dam and on
to the Splitter..... it's on a bit of a angle and we are not sure if we want to follow this
pattern....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:07:34 AM

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When you look at this Air Dam fitted up to the nose of the car...... and you look at all
of the Coleco's sticking out of it......

You really don't realize how much work it took to get to this point......

Establish a base....the splitter....figure it out...... then cut cardboard and flashing to


see if the idea will work..... then use the pattern to cut out the Air Dam.....then start
shaping the Air Dam to fit the nose of the car......in a vertical fit first ....then a
horizontal fit next ...... then how to do the flange..... where you are going to put the
rivets..... cause it's bent in many different directions......

I must say ...it is not a job for the weak minded.......and therefore I let Jimmy do the
fitting..... and drilling....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:12:40 AM

One item to notice is you'll see some vertical lines drawn on the Air Dam..... that is
just to locate where the Air Dam and body don't lay as flat as we'd like them to.....
so we'll have to dolly them down......

Also the blue Dykem is on the Air Dam so we could draw a line where we'll cut the Air
Dam so it only comes to the bottom of the oil cooler housing.....

Then we'll make the Splitter and lower Air Dam mount up to the Air Dam that is
mounted on the car.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:17:51 AM

Here's a better shot of the vertical lines drawn on the Air Dam.....

In the previous photo .... you got a good shot of how the air is going to go down and
hit the splitter and create down force...

In this photo ... you can really see how many angles the Air Dam Flange bends to
meet the body of the car..... fitting this part is a very time consuming task and my
compliments to Jim for having the patients to fit the two pieces together....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:23:18 AM

And as you can see we do the same procedure on the drivers side of the car.....

Again you can see the vertical lines where we need to fit the Air Dam and body closer
together.....

You can also see the radius and cut lines drawn on the splitter......

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Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:26:52 AM

Again this is a good shot if you were the wind and going down to hit the splitter.....

Now you see why a splitter is so important in making the nose stay on the ground
....instead of trying to fly ......

Our lines are just to look at and see what we will do once we get it all together.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:30:29 AM

With the exception of Cleco #8 where the body and the Air Dam don't fit ..... as tight
as we'd like.....

The drivers side looks very good....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:34:57 AM

When you see everything together....it starts looking like it's suppose to......

Now we start looking at how and where all of the metal and line drawings meet.

Remember we are after stopping the air from getting under the car .......and making
an easy way for the air to slide off to the sides of the car......

Also we want to have the air go around the tire ......at least as much as we can.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:44:13 AM

This is where a Camera comes in handy...... we take many more photo's then you
guy's see...... and we analyze them from many different angles...... then we figure
out just what and why we do what we are doing..... these digital camera's are
great......

This is the photo that change the way we were looking at the front end......

We were originally trying to keep the Vee shape of the fenders and front end..... and
those were the lines you saw that we put on the splitter......

But once we looked at this photo.....and remembering our objectives..... we could


easily see that we needed to run the Air Dam out to the sides of the splitter......

If we cut the angles on the Air Dam and Splitter we were going to do.... we would of
lost a lot of air into the front tires and under the car......and that's not the thing to
do....

You want the air to go around the front tires.......

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So now we'll just have the Air Dam meet the side of the splitter and not cut any of
the Air Dam or Splitter ....

Looking head on ..on the front (Frontal view) .... the splitter is barely seen ....... but
when the air rolls down .... it's function comes into play to create down force....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:47:53 AM

And here you can see what I mean..... the Air Dam will get bent on the edge back at
a 90*degree angle and meet the splitter......

This will make the Air Dam very strong out on the edge ..... and it will cover the tire
more and allow the air to slide off of the front end.....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 06:58:19 AM

What we've learned over the years ....and in the last few months ....is that air flows
over the front end of the car..... and yes you want the air going over the front
end......

But more importantly ...you want the air to slide past the sides of the front end......
much like a boat thru water......

So air will go both ways when it hits the front of the car..... the more we can get the
air to flow off to the sides of the car the better it is because it will create more of a
downforce by creating more evacuation of air out of the wheel well area..... creating
a low pressure under the hood..... creating down force......

So on these Cobra's ..... you can't get the nose smaller other then the grille effect
and we will do that..... so we want the air to try and slide off to the sides of the car
and help pull out the air from the wheel well and there by creating a low pressure in
the wheel well area and then you have to open up the area between the wheel well
area and the back side of the radiator..... so it will suck out the air coming thru the
radiator.....

That's why the fit of the tire around the wheel well area is so important.....

Also look again at the splitter ...... you can hardly see it...... you can see the bracing
we are using under the splitter ... but when we get done.... the splitter will work out
like it should

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 07:09:15 AM

The more we looked at the photo's we saw exactly what we were looking for......

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meaning we are stopping the air from getting under the car.....and also at the same
time we are getting the air to slide past the front end .......

And we'll put some vents up in the hood (should of known ...if we'd drill holes in the
front of the body.....the hood will get holes as well)....... to help get the air out of the
front of the car....

Now we have to mount the splitter in the rear....and trim up the splitter..... the cut
the air dam on our line..... then mount it all together with Dzus's....

Slowly by surely we are getting there..... One brick a day builds a house....and that
is what we are doing.... one brick a day...

Hope this helps someone out in their build

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Randy on November 24, 2005, 07:48:51 AM

Really sweet Morris 8) How will you attach the air dam to the body? What happens
below the oil cooler? I love this air managment stuff and remember how much
fooling around with it effected the high speed handling on my little EP car.

Randy

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 08:16:05 AM

Randy

I bet you really noticed the Aero..... in the Dip at Road Atlanta...... my kinda
track.....

We will cut the air dam on our line about 1" below the oil cooler...... then we'll make
a plate that goes between the two air dams...... now they will be connected......

Then we'll come up with a plate behind the air dam that matches all of the curves of
the air dam and Dzus fasten it to the air dam on the car..... and weld it to the air
dam on the splitter...... then join the two together......that's the plan.....

Things change......as you know..... when you are doing it.....

When did you run the EP Car :) :)... we use to help some of the guy's running 1600
Datsun Roadsters...I think they were EP cars as well....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 24, 2005, 12:45:09 PM

Pat

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You are so right..... we haven't calculated how much down force we will have as of
yet...... but I agree with you ....

Infact Hoppy(Terry) is getting us some 3/16" 5052 Aluminum to make the spliter
thicker and stronger ....

We'll probably put some small 90*degree angles under it to re-enforce the splitter
and deflect some of the air that does get under it.... especially out by the wheels....

Morris

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 30, 2005, 02:52:06 PM

While Jimmy is working on the splitter and Air Dam......

Jon got the rest of the floors finished up..... he decided that we could tap into the
tubing that has the body rivited to it..... and it would be strong enough.....

And once you bend the aluminum it becomes real stong real fast......

So the panels on the out board side are .040" 6061 and once they get bolted up to
the main plate and the body tubing ...they get very sturdy and will with stand the air
pressure we expect to get..... which we are hoping is negative under the car..... but
time will tell.....and testing will tell....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 30, 2005, 03:02:06 PM

The side of the body and the panels meet for a nice smooth flow of air.....

Actually Richard H. and I had some discussion about how the air will flow over the
sides of the body......

On most cars the air wants to flow over the side of the body and go down around the
door and head under the body...... and then under the car......

Two things come to mind..... one is that the exhaust pipes will block most of that air
headed under the car..... but the air that does get by the exhaust system .... will flow
under the car ...and that's what we will want.....

Because we will build a Diffuser at the rear of the car and that should help us with
our Down force at the rear of the car .....and we will need some air to have the
diffuser work.......

It's like a controlled air flow that will help with down force.... but the balance
between the front and the rear is a balance we will need to figure out and get it
right....

Title: Re: KMP 259


Post by: Morris on November 30, 2005, 03:08:09 PM

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So as the air is controlled some what coming under the car.... the need for us to
manage this Aero balance..... and that will be done by making the splitter adjustable
and some how we will need t