NONDUALITY: A RETURN TO INNOCENCE

Dialogue with Jeff Foster,

author of “Beyond Awakening” and “Life Without A Centre”

www.lifewithoutacentre.com

Where is this “mind”, which appears to dominate our lives? Where is the
centre, where is the “me”? When we stop for a moment and really look, I
mean really look, without preconceptions, without beliefs, without memory,
without the filter of spirituality, what is actually there?

All we ever could possibly find is the looking, but nobody there who is
doing the looking. There is just the looking. And perhaps not even that.

Nobody is looking. Nobody is thinking. Nobody is hearing, smelling,

tasting, sensing. Nobody is living at all.

There is just the most profound emptiness, which is total fullness.

And that empty fullness, that full emptiness is pure aliveness. And you are
not separate from that aliveness, which is to say there is no “you” at all.
There is nothing solid there.

There is only what is, and nobody there to even name it. Only the Mystery,
always the Mystery. Beyond all understanding, beyond any possibility of
comprehension. It’s where we always are. It’s what’s happening now. It’s
Home.

So why do we never see it?

In the beginning, there was only what was happening. And then something
called “mind” appeared to happen. Out of aliveness grew something called
a personality, a separate self, an identity. Out of the ocean manifested a
single and separate wave. Or that’s the story, anyway.

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And as a wave, we tried so desperately to be something in the world, to
accumulate money and power, to succeed, to be as beautiful and true and
good as possible. And we built up knowledge, accumulated thousands of
concepts, we became full of concepts! Stuffed with them!

And that simple, exquisite presence that is our birthright was apparently
lost. Although of course it was never lost: there was only ever the ocean.

We apparently lost sight of the obvious. Presence appeared to disappear,

and we got lost in something called a world, lost in time and space, lost in
the search for something more. The simple joy of being became clouded
over by a world, a vast network of concepts, beliefs, religions, ideologies,
stories.

Presence seemed to be obscured by the seeking. But where did that

search ever get us? Did it ever make us happy? Really, truly happy? Were
we ever at peace?

Well, sometimes, perhaps. But did it ultimately satisfy? Were we ever able
to come to rest, to relax totally into this moment?

That was the dream: that there was a person, who lived a life, who made
choices and accumulated and attempted to someone special in the world.
That was the dream: that you were a separate wave.

Are you suggesting that we should give up the seeking?

We would if we could. Isn’t that the spiritual search in a nutshell? To give

up? To surrender, to relax into Being, to plunge back into the no-thing?

But here’s the point: it’s always turned into a doing, isn’t it? “I need to give
up. Why haven’t I been able to give up yet?” The mind will turn anything
into a doing. It will even turn a not-doing into a doing, and spend the rest of
its life trying to do that. Trying to do nothing in order to get nowhere. The
possibilities are endless. The mind doesn’t want to die.

Oh, the wonderful games we play, trying to save ourselves. We really don’t
want to die. And so we create all these terrifying stories about death, and
cling ever more tightly to life. Always seeking, always wanting, always
hoping. Always fleeing from an illusory past, our attention drawn towards a
made-up future.

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The wonderful secret is this: death is liberation. It’s the end of mind. And
yes, that will happen at the physical death of the body. The plunge into
Nothingness, the end of thought, the end of all suffering. The end of the
“me”. But isn’t that exactly why we see death as terrifying? Because it’s the
end of “me”, the end of my life, my story, my achievements. The end of my
world. It’s all about me, isn’t it! We don’t want to lose ourselves. We love
our little “me”!

And yet, losing ourselves, as all the great spiritual traditions throughout the
ages have taught, is the liberation that we long for more deeply than
anything. To lose your self is to lose all suffering, and to plunge into the
Nothingness that is total Fullness. Which is to say that death is to see
clearly. To be without your story, without your projections, labels,
interpretations.

Which is all you have ever seen. No wonder you don’t want to let go of
them: it’s all you know.

I’ll be brutally honest: we have never really seen this world. All we have
ever seen is mind, interpretation, projection. And our interpretations never
satisfy, do they? Because all interpretations are partial, they are fragments,
they are just thoughts. So we have only ever seen fragments. We have
seen a divided world, when all the while beyond the fragmentation this
other possibility has constantly been calling out to us. We have seen this
separate from that, me separate from you. But somewhere underneath,
this other possibility has been whispering, oh so quietly, that this
fragmented story is not the whole story. Fragments are only fragments.
Underneath the division, there is something more stunningly beautiful than
the mind could ever grasp. And it is only because of this stunning
aliveness that anything can exist at all. Everything – every apparent
separate thing – is just a manifestation of that aliveness. It’s all Oneness.

But isn’t Oneness just another concept?

Oh yes, of course. The moment we speak of Oneness and nonduality and

liberation and so on, we are using concepts, which are always, always
dualistic. We are trying to use concepts to speak of that which is beyond all
concepts, trying to use duality to point to unity! And so words will only ever
confuse. But as I say over and over again, it’s never about the words.
Forget all the words, even these ones. Instead of these words, listen to a
bird sing, or look at a flower, or walk through the streets and feel the

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ground beneath your feet and the wind on your face. That will say more to
you than these words ever could!

But in a book, we have to use words. Of course, that’s not entirely true
either, we don’t have to do anything at all! But – what can I say - the words
come out. The mouth opens, or the pen moves over the paper, and sounds
happen, or scribbles happen, and this “Jeff” creature appears to
communicate something called nonduality. And watch how the mind
latches onto these sounds or words and tries desperately to work out what
they are pointing to.

The point is that they are pointing to nothing! Literally, no-thing! These
words, if you try to grasp them with the intellect, will only confuse. Like a
Zen koan, they will drive the mind crazy.

Until the confusion drops. And then there is only what is, only crystal clear
aliveness. And in that, the truth is revealed. Not understood, but revealed.
It’s not something that anyone could teach you.

Doesn’t that suggest some sort of process, some sort of

transformation in time?

Yes, the moment we say things like “the confusion drops” the mind will
immediately latch onto this and create some sort of process out of it. The
mind will say “right, I need to drop my confusion so I will get the crystal
clarity that Jeff is talking about”. And the mind has saved itself once again!
It has bought itself a future. But of course it has missed the point
completely.

The mind loves a future. It gives it life. Without a future - and therefore
without a past - the mind has nothing to do, absolutely nothing to do. Oh
yes, make no mistake, this message is very threatening to the mind. This
message is pointing to nothing less than the end of the mind. And,
understandably, that’s the last thing the mind wants to hear.

So it’s not a question of doing, it’s a question of seeing?

But it’s not a seeing like any other seeing. It’s not a seeing that a person
can do. It’s not a seeing that requires time.

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The moment any movement is made to do that seeing, to do what we are,
we are instantly in the world of illusion. The “I” is born, and gets an identity
(as “the one who is trying to see”).

The mind always wants something to do. But we’ve tried everything. We’ve
been doing our entire lives, and did it ever satisfy. We’ve been doing in the
material world and doing in the spiritual world our whole lives. And did it
ever lead to ultimate satisfaction?

And even if something did satisfy deeply, that too would pass. All
experiences pass and nothing stays, as the Buddhists have known for
thousands of years. Reality is like sand passing through your fingers. We
can’t capture a damn thing.

And even if we think we can capture a slice of reality, what happens when
illness and old age and death come along? What then? Death will strip
away everything: that is the fear of the separate individual. The terror of
loss rumbles beneath everything the separate individual does.

But you see, we never had anything in the first place. And when that’s
seen in absolute clarity, everything is set free.

And so this nonduality thing – and I love how the world has given a name
to this - is not another process, another way of life, another philosophy,
another belief system, another doing, although, of course, that’s the way
the mind could hear this. Perhaps that’s the only way it could hear this. To
hear it any other way might be too threatening.

It’s not a process, because there is no time. This is not going anywhere.
It’s just being itself perfectly. If we see clearly, without any story or
interpretation from the past, it’s so obvious: there is only this. The heart
beating, breathing, sounds happening over there, someone coughing,
thoughts just arising and falling away. And nobody is doing it.

Nobody is beating the heart: it’s just beating. Nobody is breathing,

breathing is just happening. The world is already free from “you”. You are
already absent.

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When you said that, a great excitement welled up. It feels like
innocence, like a burden lifted….. I don’t know.

Yes, I don’t know either! It’s the mind dying, the burden of self being seen
through for the illusion that it is. A plunge into the Unknown, the Unborn,
the Undying, which is what you already are. Yes, there can be great
excitement. And maybe fear too. But even that is still just a play of mind.
“There is excitement”. “There is fear”. Just thoughts. Just thoughts. Arising,
dissolving, perfectly. Arising, dissolving, in this clarity, this openness, this
transparency that has nothing to do with a personal “you”, yet allows it all
fully, with no exception, no exception at all.

It feels like it’s uncontaminated.

Yes. Beautiful, uncontaminated.

Pure. Innocent.

New. Always new.

Always being born for the first time.

This is pure, unconditional love. Our true nature. And yes, those are still
just concepts. Throw even those concepts away. “Pure, unconditional love”
– still a wonderful belief! What happens when even that ideology dies?

This is the death of all you ever knew. The death of you as you know
yourself, as you experience yourself. It’s like a rebirth, into the openness
that you always were. Into the openness, the transparency that you knew
as a child. We think we lost it, but how could we ever lose something we
never had!

Say that again – we never lost it because we never had it?

Yes, because it’s not a thing that we could ever possess. It’s the
openness, the space, the transparency, the awareness in which all
apparent “things” arise in the first place. The space in which “you” arise.
The space that holds all things, embraces all things, allows all things to be
exactly as they are. The space that is uncontaminated by what happens.
Pain comes and goes, anger comes and goes, wars come and go,
dictators die, rain and wind and snow blow through, loved ones arrive and

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leave, the clouds of life arise, stay for a little bit, and pass, and this
openness always is pure, untainted.

And is this openness separate from what arises?

No. There is never any division. It is language that has separated this from
that, awareness from its passing content.

The final truth, if you want a final truth, is that awareness and what
happens “in” awareness are not two.

Awareness is its content.

And to the mind, this seems like a complete paradox. That the space in
which the world arises is identical with that apparent world. That is
nonduality. No separation. No separate “me” who sees the world. No
separate world to see.

So here’s the shattering conclusion: there is no world.

When there is no “me” to see the world, there is no world either. And yet
it’s not a blank nothingness. Even that is just another concept.

What happens when the “me” who sees the world dissolves? And the
world along with it?

Here’s what happens:

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Did you see it? Did you see that there was nothing to see? That everything
that needs to be seen is already being seen?

There is only the simple and obvious present appearance of life. Just this.
This is the miracle we were always seeking. And yes, “miracle” is just a
world. When the person is not there, there’s not even anyone there to call
it a “miracle”. There is only the miracle, only God, only the Tao, only Life
Itself, only the One, appearing as a million things.

When the search for the extraordinary “out there” collapses, this is seen to
be quite extraordinary. And it’s utterly ordinary. And the whole
ordinary/extraordinary duality collapses on itself.

And what are we left with?

Chop wood and carry water.

Have you finished your soup? Then clean your bowl.

The absolute simplicity of this. Everyday life is the miracle. And how could
that ever be seen by a seeking mind?

In this, there are never any problems. There is not even that possibility.
Life happens, and nobody is doing it. And nobody is there to know it, to
interpret it, to criticise it, to want to escape it.

No problems. And even thoughts that claim that there are problems are not
a problem, if they were to arise. What’s the worst thing that could ever
happen? Just a thought. Nothing to fear anymore. There never was.

Nothing to fear. Not even death. Death is just a concept. I only see life.
Death is just an idea.

There is a strange peace here that I cannot name. A sense of - I don’t

know - excitement. Is it that way for you?

Life is nothing but that: the peace we cannot name. To name it is to kill it.
And yet naming goes on. We could say: this is a chair, that is a table, that

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is a lampshade. And yet it’s all a wonderful illusion. But why not say “this is
a chair”. Of course it’s not a damn chair!

Years ago, when this was first seen, there was a great excitement. Like a
wound-up coil being released. A huge release of pressure. The
seriousness of life gone. The childlike wonder and playfulness was seen to
be the natural state, the way of things. It was all so new and so very
dramatic.

These days that seeing is constant, if I had to use language to describe it!
This is just in response to your question, you see. I have no idea what
“way” it is for me, if truth be told. I know that when I speak, it’s all an
illusion, a lie in a way. The reference point, the “me”, has no meaning
anymore. That’s to say, this apparent character “Jeff” plays in emptiness,
dances in the alive space that has always held him. That’s how I might put
it in language. But language… well, it’s never true at all. It’s just a
wonderful story being told now, in response to a question, and only in
response to a question. When there is no question, there is no movement
here.

I see that now that my question was meaningless. It implies a me and

you, you know, a teacher and student.

Yes, beautiful, meaningless, but perfect in that. And also so wonderfully

meaningful, because it was asked. No problem. Questions are wonderful,
a perfect play of the Divine as they already are. There’s this wonderful
apparent play of questions and answers, and people pretending to be
people, and having conversations like this and asking dream questions to
a dream character in a dream room, and going back to their dream homes
and their dream families. We don’t need to get rid of questions, or
teachers, or families, or anything.

You speak about the dream. Isn’t that somehow devaluing life? I
mean, if it’s all a dream, then why bother, right?

Well, it may be heard that way. When I say dream, I mean this: that the
seriousness, the solidity has gone out of it. The edges have melted away.
It really is like a dream, that’s what it feels like. Dreaming and waking –
what difference?

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But it’s not a cold detachment. The paradox is this: when it’s all seen as a
dream, it’s all so incredibly intimate. Because all barriers between “me”
and “you” fall away. And in that unknowable space, I see you for the first
time, every time. And every time I see you, it’s a new you. And in that
space, there is love. We always meet in love. Every meeting is a meeting
in love.

And if I think I have a problem with you, it’s really just a problem with what I
take to be myself. And if I am at war with you, I feel it as war with myself.
Because there is not two, there has never been two, there has only ever
been One. One appearing as two, as a million things.

The “me and you” division is just an idea, just a creation of thought.

You say it’s just a thought. But it goes so deep.

Yes, yes it does. As children, it begins to be drummed into us! “You are
you, and you have a name, and I am me, and I have a name, and there
are millions of others like you out there in the world”. And there the
violence begins. I’m a Christian, you’re a Jew, he’s a Hindu, she’s a
Buddhist. I support one team, one God, one religion, one corporation, one
branch of academic knowledge, you support another. My beliefs against
yours, her feelings in opposition to his. Division, fragmentation, violence.
And there’s no end to it.

But what a wonderful illusion it all is. And the end of the illusion, which is a
seeing-through simpler than the mind could ever imagine, there is the end
of violence. And then I truly see the one in front of me, with fresh eyes.
And know that the one in front of me is really myself. Just a projection. And
no, it’s not a cold detachment, it’s unconditional love, it’s exquisitely
intimate. But yes, the illusion of individuality appears to go deep.

And that’s just a thought too?

Of course, ultimately it is just another wonderful thought, because nothing

could possibly go any deeper than the surface. Nothing can go any deeper
than this play of appearances. Something that goes deep, it’s just a
thought happening in this appearance. When that thought is believed,
when there is mesmerisation with that story, it really feels like something
that goes deep! Experience always reflects belief, and belief always
mirrors experience, perfectly. Thought creates world. Thought is the world.

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And so when thought goes, the world goes with it. And when even that
thought goes, well.... I can’t even speak of that. It could never be spoken
of. It’s…. grace.

And so, this apparent world goes on. There is still light and colour and
sound and apparent people having apparent conversations. But
underneath, oh, there is this… clarity. This spaciousness. Vast, infinite.

Right now, the story could go… we are two people talking together… but
you see, even that story arises in the Vastness.

You see, we cannot “reach” liberation. If you believe you are a person in
this room, who can reach liberation, that’s exactly the thought and
therefore experience that’s clouding the liberation that is always here,
always, forever, perfectly.

And yet, nothing could possibly cloud liberation. That thought – well, it too
is a perfect expression. And this is where nonduality gets really… exciting,
really encompassing, as vast as the universe. Everything, literally
everything, is Oneness. And even the confusion, even the “not getting it
yet”, even that is Oneness. The absolute collapse of all duality, of better
and worse, and right and wrong, of enlightened and unenlightened. The
collapse of it all.

And yet, those polar opposites still dance and play, and yes it really is a
play, that’s what it feels like. A play, with no purpose or meaning outside of
the play. Nothing outside of itself. Everything perfectly itself, timelessly,
forever. And yet no separate things at all. Perfection. Perfection in the last
place we’d ever look – right, exactly where we are.

Yes, even the confusion, even the suffering is perfect in itself, because
even the most intense suffering is just a thought. “I’m suffering” is a
thought. It can be a powerful thought, and yes it’s a thought that can
appear go “deep” as you said, but ultimately it’s just a thought, because
ultimately everything is just a thought. And even “nonduality” is just a
thought.

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Do we hang on to suffering to keep our identity?

Yes, but it’s not something we do. There’s no choice in it. Would we really
choose to suffer, if we had the choice? Of course not. It appears to be
involuntary. That’s why it’s called suffering. Suffering means “something
bad happened to me”.

With “suffering” arises the identity as “sufferer”. They arise together and
die together. To let go of suffering is to let go of the one who suffers. So
letting go of suffering is terrifying to the mind. The mind projects a void into
the absence of the sufferer, the mind is terrified to go into that void, into the
Unknown. It’s very much like death. What would be left if I lost my identity
as the one who suffers?

Well, the answer is freedom. In the absence of all identity, pure,

unadulterated freedom. Freedom to be anything. Freedom to not be
anything. No difference. This is why the Buddha spoke of suffering as the
great illusion. When I think I am suffering, that is exactly what I experience.
And I try desperately to end my suffering. I think this will take time. And in
this attempt to end suffering, I create a future.

And what the mind could never see is this: it’s the search for the end of
suffering that is maintaining the suffering. And, see if you can see this: it’s
the search for the end of suffering that is actually creating suffering in the
first place.

So, in looking for peace I’m keeping the suffering going?

And that’s something the mind could never accept. You see, the mind
wants to suffer, because in suffering it keeps itself going, makes itself
stronger and stronger, keeps itself alive. And the open space, the
vastness, the transparency that is your true nature, well, in that there is no
need for suffering, no place for it. And yet, out of love, even suffering is
allowed. The open space does not deny anything.

And this is not to deny suffering, this is not a cold hearted denial of
anything, not at all. That would be to miss the point of this entirely. No, it’s
just to say this: suffering only happens for a person. And let’s not deny
that. Let’s try to help people if they are suffering, let’s not just say “there’s
no individual suffering… so I don’t need to help anyone!” That’s really
missing the point. What I’m saying is that for a person, yes, there is

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suffering, but in the absence of the person, in the space that you are, in the
presence, the unconditional love that embraces everything, where is the
suffering? Where is the one who suffers? Where is anything at all?
Nowhere. It’s all seen to be a dream, an illusion, a trick of thought. And yet
the play of apparent suffering goes on, until it doesn’t. And when it doesn’t,
it’s seen that the suffering was never there in the first place. Only the story
of suffering, the story of a person.

Is anything real?

Yes and no. It’s all the dream of waking life, the dream of a person, the
dream of suffering and seeking. And when it’s not seen as a dream, when
there is contraction and mesmerisation, it seems so terribly solid, so
terribly concrete, so real and so serious. But when all that falls away, it’s
and it’s seen to be a play, a fleeting, fragile, beautifully impermanent show,
it’s so unreal, so light, so innocent. It’s like a movie. And it’s not a movie
that you are sitting back and watching. It’s a movie that you’re totally at
one with. And it’s simply because you are no longer there, that you are
fully there. When you are not there, you are fully there, because there is
nothing to separate you from it. There is only the “it”, which is to say, there
is nothing at all.

Nothing is happening here. There is only total stillness.

But things appear to move, don’t they?

Yes, and the key word there is “appear”. It’s all a wonderful appearance. A
play of appearances, for nobody. Arising out of the barest emptiness, and
yet appearing as total fullness, as full as full can be. Nothing to separate
anymore. The end of war.

In the absence of what you call “you”, there is a fullness that you could
never imagine. And because it’s all so utterly illusory and impermanent, it
all takes on a solidity and a “rightness” that the isolated individual self
could never hope to see.

I see that it’s always here. I see that I’ve been driving myself mad in
vain. There’s a kind of sadness here, but a strange sense of joy too.

Yes, the sadness… ah, my friend, you were innocent, throughout that
whole struggle. The sadness is the loss of that struggle, the death of it, and

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the innocence of it all, and the joy, well, that is the openness being allowed
to breathe again. The openness that you are, that you always were,
throughout it all. It’s all unfolding perfectly. The sadness and the joy, and
the struggle, all equal in this. All perfectly appropriate, all accepted, all
allowed.

This is not a “state” that some people have attained. It’s not something that
“Jeff” or anyone else has found. This is just a description of the utterly
obvious, so obvious that a newborn baby could see it: there is no separate
self. Life has no centre, and never did. This character “Jeff” was never real.

And yet, “Jeff” is apparently talking right now. What a wonderful paradox
this all is, to a mind. And I could say this… that I just sit back and watch
Jeff as he talks here. But even to say that, it sounds like there is an entity
that sees Jeff! No, that’s the illusion, and it’s inevitable that language will
just fuel that illusion. There is no “Jeff” who sees “Jeff”.

Here’s what it’s like: Jeff is seen. And Jeff does what he does. And this
open space, this transparency is always unaffected, but loves it all, loves it
totally, loves it without reservation because the openness is not separate
from any of it. And Jeff dances his little dance, sings his little song, and
lives his dream life, and one day he will lie down and die and say goodbye
to this dream world, and there’s no problem with it, none at all, not even
the possibility of that.

Only Presence, only Oneness, only Love. And all is allowed, and all is
myself, and really there is nothing called “myself” at all. This will never be
understood by the mind.

But somewhere beyond the mind, ah,….that’s where the miracle happens.
And this is where we meet today, this is where we always meet. And it all
unfolds perfectly. No problems, apart from thinking, and really thinking
could never be a problem, because thoughts are just thoughts, they are
harmless. And the spiritual search, the search of a lifetime, that’s all just a
thought too.

Harmless, all harmless, all benevolent.

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 Jeff Foster's website:

www.lifewithoutacentre.com

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