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20 people have their own product these 20 owners have their own..

Fine theres the Mozilla bug system and whatever it does it does and it where the line of

internal external is within that is not really all that interesting And then theres the

Netscape bug system And the Netscape guys are going to be really interested in bugs that

filed the Mozilla So theres

are against bug system got to be mechanism where bugs

migrate and notices of repair migrate Right mean this is where youre going with this

Right

OK but were not real Im not maybe these guys are Im note real prejudiced on

exactly how that happens

OK urn sort of my thoughts of where first coming up with this is it seems like so we

want the external what Im gonna call the external person the external customer urn

when they create bug do we want consider or do we want do

to that always bug to

more investigation so that then becornes bug once somebodys you know- validated
it

that it is bug So do we want sort of like staging area where we have all this

information coming in and thats

its staging are people investigate it process we

have to understand of how they want to this and then convert

investigate something over

to bug or do we want to just consider everything coming in as bug..

dont care

LT dont want to the world having enter access to the bug system think people who

are ..people who..

They just...if they all submit them if everybody submits them..

LT The e-mail but..

Then the state of submitted but not blessed is just another state

LT Yeah but its the level of noise gets really high right The noise ratio can be really high

Youre saying you dont mind it

coming in to and making be able to
queue anyway it

move from that cue into useable queue..

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The noise will find channel If the noise source is out there it will turn into an e-mail if

we dont have free access to close bugs

Its lot easier to get em where you want em

LT If theyre on the system OK

And then you invalidate the
bugs

It also may look more responsive mean know we have problems with the
open calls

never turn in to hear the

that bugs ratio of calls to bugs is very high and you know

theres lots of reasons for that but for whatever the reasons are dont want anything

similar to happen to Mozilla.org

Its lot better to see oh look at that they invalidated my bug and then gave me reason

as opposed to the e-mail disappeared in to the bucket

pit

What dont get that.

Let me tell
you in one minute what dont care about and then maybe youll disagree with

me Urn one way to do that is the bugs come in to this staging area and they sit there until

somebody said yes that is bug and they put them in to the bug system different way

they do it is they come in to the bug system labeled submitted and then somebody looks at

it and says yes its bug and We have no..

it
changes in to bug

LT Which is called call right mean they call that call right

We can call it whatever we want

LT So we might as well call it..

thought calls and bugs were um separate objects that were connected rather than two

states of the same object

Theyre actually separate

Yeah think of how were doing tech support

it
say the
contracting now theres calls that

may or not be transferred into bugs was well So were thinking about doing something

similar to that..

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The numbers are not unique right you can have call with one number and bug with the

number

No bug with different number

Always bug with diffemet number

Yeah and you can cross reference from call to bug bug to bug etc

So call is just bug in different state if

you bang the thing around enough

Its not. .1 that calls could end up being one bug

though multiple

True

And single call could end up being multiple bugs

True

And thats what we want where

to get if for example theres bug out there now and it

gets reported by say thousands of customers we dont want that same one to
go right into

the bug tracking system So we want it to go to the staging area so we have someone that

manages that queue and they can say OK this this and this and they can transfer those to

bug

LT dont think youll have that with the customers

Well dont know what the numbers are

LT Yeah think youll yeah mean were were not consumer were
organization

developer organization so youll be getting bugs from developers who are looking at the

source rather than end users

Right

We have hundreds of people filing bugs against CX source and think youll have more

on the Mozilla sources than we ever had on the sources by maybe an order of

magnitude in which would make it thousands

LT OK but not lOs of thousands or..

yeah not tens of thousands..

yeah theres be hundreds and then thousands

difference really its gonna initially

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LT And calls people who are filing theres lot people filing calls right How many people

theoretically could be filing calls Ijust trying to figure out the calls

All right you mean how many customers report bugs in..

LT With the current outside systems we have like the whats it called

LT The vector file yeah

Well that system today we dont house all thecalls here we actually um source out lot

of our calls so we could get as many as...you know tens of thousands of calls in week

So its been know...so were kind of comparing that to this

LT Yeah and think its think youre gonna end up with something the scale of the count

is going to be lower already so you wont have one system

as many as having

Yeah well its safe to

say that were gonna be three or four orders of magnitude lower than

what theyre dealing with today

Do you guys have proposal it sounds like you do

Yeah

Why dont you..

That was easy

Yeah guess as sort of what we were talking about we were having like staging area

and we can call it calls situation where what we were at is some table that we
looking

were going to stage the different information for each call and thats some things that we

can talk about too what kind of information do we want Different

to try attributes So

theres gonna be series of attributes that we want each

to keep logged for call and then

from here there will be basically this where uh the Moz get involved
is will
org people

and the calls take the calls and convert those in to And
investigate bug put this into the

bugs table So this is sort of our proposal what were at So this is our
looking staging

aret and this is where whats going to be off of the external web where
coming site

anybody can come in any of these developers can come in enter the call and well have

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them put it into the table And then within the Moz org they can investigate this convert

it into bug and sort of that sort of follows pattern of what were doing now within

most of the scope Its complication

OK right on the architecture um its

gonna follow lot like what we were using for

Case Tracker We have an external Web Site so well have web server

Whats case tracker

Uh Case Tracker is for uh external customers to log calls and track their calls

What kind of customers mean

Actual um like Expert Alliance user users so these are urn people who have bought

the expert Alliance contract

High level support

High level support right So it would be people from say Chrysler or Lucent Technology

that are using our products

OK
So were going to have web server here and urn well have Im use NAS which
gonna

is the Netscape Application Server which is KEBA and have the plug-in here And well

have another actual urn its Solaris box Extreme that were currently for Case
using

Tracker And this is where youll find our Oracle database residing and this is where well

have the actually KEBA server running And the communication would be that the external

customer will come in and basically go to some URL that will feed up the page so they can

enter the call and the call will be put in to the database be it KEBA so thats pretty much

what were doing

So is that manual Turning moving the call to the database

No thats all..

IZcPj 3/
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..be right exactly Theres file. .firewall here and theres another one actually over

here too and think theres one out here too

And itll be all transactional and..

Transactional right exactly So when they do submit off the fonn theyre just

activating KEBA urn basically what they call KEBA app logic which is just Java

code its gonna take the information and put it into the database And this way we can also

provide Im not too sure what other inforrnation we want to allow these external customers

to be able to do Do we want to give them some reporting capabilities of what calls theyve

already entered if so then we need some kind of tracking of who they are Also be albe

if we want to allow thern to update existing calls that theyve put in So then then we need

to have some kind of there will probably be more than just one page here Obviously

well need some reporting capability to understand exactly.

Clink on the and then mess

you know..
link it

Eat cookie

Maybe theyll have password or you know whatever..

OK yeah those are some of the questions that wasnt sure of exactly how much

information we want to get from the customer Do we want to do that when they so the

download or do we want to do that when they enter the calls

When they enter..

OK

got to tell
you Deb Edge is gonna want all that data

Cant do it

Cant do what

Cant give Deb edge all that information on this

guy unless the guy says its OK
Yeah its privacy problem

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Im not gonna tell

you that
you cant file bug unless youre willing to give Deb Edge

your name and address and phone number and platform and E-mail address cant go

there Right

Yeah people are going to want to see guarantees about privacy right on that first page

Well dont mind if Deb Edge says please put box there saying oh and by the way its

OK to give this to Deb Edge mean...but if

you simply collect if we simply collect the

data so that we can you know know what kind of machine this guys on and few

other odds and ends

Right so we need to insure that whatever database the user information goes in is

something that we control OR that is separate from other similar databases

Well heres an alternative Its very this is

gonna get proposed If you want to file

bugs you have to be member of Deb Edge

Heres another alternative

LT Thats not bad

think its horrible

Heres another alternative if

you want to file bug youve got to enter your information in

this database which will be published Period Public

See thats gonna thats going to disenchant me from filing bugs

Yeah but so is the other one

agree didnt say like the proposal And dont want to disenchant people from filing

bugs want people to file bugs

would propose that the only information that youre required to put in this thing period

is your e-mail address which we will proof

Which we will what

Prove we will validate

Well what are we going to do with that e-mail address That e-mail address is valuable

People are going to ask for it

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One thing thats going to happen. .1 dont want want to tell these people that were not

going to give your e-mail address away

JZ But the we are Right becaseu gonna be

is the
thing bug system is publicly interrogatable

Oh thats true..

JZ And anyone can go and get list of all bugs And harvest the...just like you know mean

they can they do that today when you post to news and theyll do that with our bug

system

We could put an office gate on it

Yeah

LT We dont have to
say who it was filed by mean we made that externally it doesnt tell

you who filed the bug

You registered you get dealt your ID and thats the only ID the bug system has and people

can send mail to that ID or not

Do you guys have this problem now Are calls out externally queryable

Only for ones that they have existing contacts

break

Putting together marketing presentation for people who are about to go out and do

what here in the next week or so

Well whats happening is becaseu of the source code release weve made some revision to our

client strategy So were preparing to

go out and visit the field and educate them on what our new

strategy is and what does source code mean for our branded products and how do we move

forward in developing those products

Whats it like when you go out and talk to your customers

ti

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Its both Laughs So were hitting we have 12 field offices across North America so theres 11

the U.S and one in Canada And weve divided the into three teams and three sets of
country

cities and so were doing were all doing the or cities in week span And at each visit were

spending the entire morning with the field sales team in that office them on whats going
briefing

on And being little more candid and truthful and sharing some things that are for internal use

only And then we spend the afternoon with Key Customers that they want us to see and brief

them on heres what out strategy is and heres what source code means And at both stages you

have to be prepared for those kind of hot potato questions and know how to answer them And

thats of the material that and answer

part they got this morning was heres our rude questions

sheet So if you get asked this question heres the answer

What have been some of the toughest or most interesting on 331

responses

Um well got an interesting did briefing for customer last week and was actually

surprised that they had been reading so much about what we were doing with Source Code and

started to present OK heres the benefits we see for you as an enterprise customer and and their

eyes started to glaze over And was like do you not believe us what are there concerns can

address and they said no we believe it were bought in we totally that we see lots of
agree

benefits for us even though we dont want to develop on the course code So that kind of

surprised me because lot of the customers Ive talked to theyve read the press releases but they

dont know about

enough product development and source code to really understand the impact

So most of the reactions are more educating them on what the is and making them feel
process

better that theyre still

gonna get branded products that are supported by us and delivered us

Have you encountered any skepticism

Right theres been some skepticism and think lot of it comes from not having
just enough

information or really understanding what it is were doing And Ive been surprised that once you

educate them on heres and heres

the
process the vision we have for it and yeah this is new

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territory that were charting and were little uncertain ourselves how successful or not successful

it
might end up being but the reaction has been pretty positive its been very positive

how hard have you been working

Yeah the work has been lot harder than normal would say the last two months or so Ever

since we made the public announcement beca1 weve been under strict deadline to really it
get

out on March 31 as we promised and its also caused lot of ripple effects in other projects that

were going on BecaAI now that youre doing source code and youre living your life in fish

tank it it really changes the processes that you do in the

way that
you start approaching how you

then promote your products

Whats your typical day like now

Laughs9t typical day starts around 830 inthe morningpittits filled with lot of

meetings about Jmy roll is more outwardly focused so there have been lot of meetings about

launching future product versions how do we manage whats going on with the source at the same

time that were to announce our own branded

trying products jim putting together lot of these

field visits and coordinating with the field and answering their So the typical
questions day for

the last month or ends around

so or at night

So you feel like this not what face

is
you all the time but it sounds like its not

atypical of life at growth company

Right it would say that the last month has been in terms of the amount of work
pretty atypical

and the things that were becaseu were

just doing essentially investing new business model here

and were trying to feel our way through it But think

at high growth company its in some

ways not so atypical

Are you enjoyinjmyself

$7 fc o7_
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love it love it

What do you enjoy the most these days

Well the fact that were really pioneering new ground and thats pretty exciting becLyou you

dont have lot of precedent to go by and say well this is what this company did and where we

can do it better its heres where this And and think thats
company failed at it its challenge

very exciting And think it will be interesting two or three years down the road to look back and

say look at the hindsight

When you when people talk about internet time describe what the meaning of

internet time is

Well think internet time just means that product cycles have have gotten shorter And we can

deliver products in to months where before typical software projects would take multiple

years So think internet time to me just means that now we can deliver at faster
products pace

in more of an interative than as in the past

process

Is this does
interative process it sort of mean there is this kind of constant

development

Right but also think that part of the interative

process is
sharing earlier in cycle the
your product

things that youre doing and the directions that youre taking as saw in the customer council
you

yesterday and what were doing with the field And that that even
getting process early enough

when you say heres the product weve defined you make your changes accordingly as they come

in

When you started as in the work world did you anticipate that you would be

doing work like this

/tt t3

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Oh would say jim always anticipated would be working in the high tech industry and

kind

could
of had that

foresee
anticipation

that was going

where

to
was

be doing
at technical

work like
undergraduate

this becaseu like

school

were
But_ph

inventing
never

new
w2
business model and thats that brings about work that nobodys ever thougIof before

Great appreciate it

Youre welcome

break

off camera whispering

TH love this phone it fits in

your pocket

It fits everywhere

TH It fits everywhere Did tell

you the story about the Ti
Is he going to be there for time or..
long

Yeah so wait OK

TH .1
got it back today they fixed it

The story that heard was up to...it was the battery

just

TH Yeah and well we verified that So..

It was definitely just the battery

TH It was just the

battery

Oh thats so cool

TH Thats very cool Of course Im looking at the weather and its

getting ugly in the Santa

Cruz mountains..

Yeah but its not supposed to rain today is it

TH Well you know Id hate like hell to be half way over and have it start dumping on me

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heard its supposed to rain tomorrow which means some time in 48 hours of Saturday

morning on either side laughter

TH So Im not gonna stay too late think is the uh..

Oh are you biking there

TH am on the bike The bikes been here since Tuesday

have to remember to run over to..

So the Honda dealer.. /ccc

TH Yeah bunch of people are supposed to show up and call for me at 1030 on Monday

morning

So urn lets do this So uh we have build instructions on all platforms

TH Build instructions of all platforms of varying levels or quality...

MT Um weve verified LINUX in Mac has anyone successfully built windows who isnt a..

TH Yes

MT OK

TH It was...Bob Moss team has been doing tons of work for us

MT Yeah when had talked to Bob...Bob Loss...Bob Moss last night he had build Mac and

LINUX but hadnt yet built Windows

TH Urn we found problem Ed claimed that we could be built that we dont need..

laughter

TH had thought...its gone...laughter thoughts gone...no NSPR had claimed that the

make vanilla version of 0-make for Windows would work and we couldnt get it to

work and so in instead of spending lots of time figuring out whats going on there

were just saying you must...

break

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TH .version and got the source from Al and theyre bringing me Im gonna run test JB

to make sure that were doing the right thing as far as the GPL and redistribution of source

for modified whatever and was gonna thats what we

log bug against you saying that

were gonna do havent done that yet though

Whats with the GPL

TH So we the NSPR team..

Ml No they have hacked version of G-make that

you need in order to build it

TH And actually DYM uses it is using the same version also

MI And it wont build without it and..

TH Well DVM may or may not build we dont know but..

MT All right thats good

TH We have hacked version of G-make and so becaseu it and SFS thing we have to release

source and do the right things by..

Ml You just have to make the source available for anybody that
you give the binary to

TH Right

Ml In essence

TH OK Ijust dont want Richard Stallman coming in like

yelling at us cause of the wrong

thing

Mt Yeah it will be bad at this time it will be bad at all times

TH Did you see the link he has on the GNU page

MT No

TH Netscape is freeing source and then you click on it and it

gives this long discourse about

whether or not were do the And we too much

gonna right thing if attach potential source

of revenue to this then were not really in the free software community Its this whole

huge. .whatever

All right well at least were making an impact

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Urn did last couple days ago you were coming around uh about with the idea that in

NSPR none of the files themselves were actually tagged with the source license Did that

actually get fixed or..

Its an open bug

TH Its an open bug its actually checked the branch has been created and it has been NPLd

to the best of my knowledge did he not close it out should touch base with him if he

didnt close the bug out

Ml The last saw the bug was still

open

TH OK will find out whether or not Doug can be closed out

MT Im not actually connected to the network at this time..

Is that bug list youre going over or is it the Michael checklist

TH Its the Michael checklist

MT Thats the Michael checklist phone rings Hello Achilles Did you uh laughs did you

guys come to any conclusion about what licenses Mozilla.org accepts

Yeah was actually gonna talk to you about that

MT OK No just...OK Do you have any clue ..God worked on that so long this is
very

confusing issue And worked so long to try and make it clear OK perfect is Lloyd

coming All right all right then Ill wait for Lloyd OK well do you want me to give you

the brief thing or are you busy All right all right thats fine Ill come get you

afterwards Oh cool yes

Off camera conversation

Youve not filming this

Thats what we heard

TH Actually were not meeting were not really here this is all bad dream

Im already this the binary so its done right Downloaded it..

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Yeah Go home

MT We actually shipped it week ago laughter

This is smoke screen

Mt Well it seems by pretending to be busy we can like screw off all thy Md you think were

like really busy so

Have one meeting action items laughter

And then immediately afterwards go back to that Pod Super Mario Brothers

OK gotta go uh Ill come back in little bit

MT Thats good becaseu Paquin and Lloyd are coming over here so there will be more..

Lloyds back

TH Lloyds back

MT yes

In fact had breakfast with him this morning hes all nice and sun burned

Lets create some fake disaster scare laughter

Does he look like Paquin did two weeks ago

TH Not that bad

MT All right

TH Allright

Ml OK license license what do we have...forget anything about the source tree lets just

pretend that were Mozilla.org and uh we have source tree and our job is to be the center

of the universe for free software development around the Navigator code base

Right

MT If someone gives us code that is not under the NPL or MPL what do we do with that

code

For the most part we should be able code

to use that if as long as its not under the

mean see the only problem GPL says you mix this with
is that
specifically anything else

that other stuffs got to be under GPL too

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MT All right so here

And we cant live in that world

MT All right So heres...Mitchells

The GPL taints us but theres possibility the NPL taints other people right Which is

why the NPL is there

Ml There is no NPL Well no were saying someone give us brand new code Here is

brand new file that make the navigator purple And its under Freds license OK The

rest of the Navigator is all NPL pretend OK And so what do we do with that code If

we believe that code is good and needs to be part of the free community da da da da da

were going this trouble make were

right and then
all to this tainting
through license

gonna take Freds code and not taint it so that people are free to make modifications and

not contribute changes back to us Right cause that Freds license doesnt require changes

back

LT Pre-existing conditions though right mean..

MT No but we could say Im sorry when you want to give me that code under MPL or NPL
then will
accept it otherwise Im Mozill.org and cant take that source code

You cant give code to Richard Stallman thats not GPL

LT Right

Well you can give it to him but hell..

Why are you bringing up this now though

But think that what were trying to do with the MPL with the Mozilla Public License is

to say we think that the direction that weve taken with the Netscape public License is the

right direction We understand that there are lots of problems that lots of you have with

granting Netscape specific rights or extra ordinary rights and we think that OK youre

right you should have problems with that But we think that that direction for license is

the right now. So if

you want to heres the Mozilla Public License use it be happy with

Pagel7
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Netscape Documentary
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it We think thats the best But if someone else contributes code say under BSD urn it

doesnt see like theres anything that prevents Mozilla from accepting that code

Mi Except Mozillas belief that tainting license creates more vital free source community

than non-tainting license..

Right so thats question of how political does Mozilla want to be

Ml Its not political its do you believe in tainting licenses as way to make free source code

right Otherwise Adobe pulls the source tree makes great version of the purple Navigator

file and keeps it to themselves for the from now to the end of eternity

The could do that anyways..

LT Well they can do that

anyway right

MT No they cant

yes the can

LT Well the they can say that we didnt theres portions of it that are under NPL right

Right so if they modify..

Cause youre about new code cannon

talking they they cannot modify our code they

cannot modify..

MT Our code is not in this

picture our code is in one file that file is entirely NPL

Theyre contributing new stuff

1tT Right brand new file

then they can do whatever they want with it They can keep it
proprietary if they want

Ml no no no when someone contributes it want this to be Mozilla.org

LT Then they contribute it under the NPL right

MT Op thats the question What license what license requirements does Mozilla.org have on

code that comes back

LT NPL doesnt it

MT Well no Im getting adamantly not and Ijust dont understand that universe

LT Whos saying adamantly not

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Jamie

MT Michael Laguardia says well take it under any license except GPL becaseu that would

destroy the tree

Im saying that my understanding has been that NPL is is

suggestion is

recommendation as what we think is the best thing Now dont know if Mozilla if

Mozilla.org has taken the extra step of saying its its good thing and thats the only

thing that were going to accept

LT Well certainly anything thats checked into file that got the NPL reference at the top..

MT Right is NPL theres no question about that

Right its NPL or is MPL anything thats got either one of those references up at the top

has to line
say in that

MI Um went out and just totally down to the last detail figured out what the matrix is of

how you get source code out of the building with Mitchell And when did that it because

clear that source code out of the building and

getting getting source code in form that

Mozilla.org wants are not the same possibly not the same And so now want to
really

know exactly what Mozilla.org wants

5/ /7c

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