Veneration of Mary Debate: Does the Bible Command Hyper-Dulia of

Mary?
Lane: Welcome to today's debate. Today's debate is entitled: Does the Bible Teach Veneration of Mary?
We have two debaters today: Mr. William Albrecht, who will be taking the affirmative position. He's a
Roman Catholic Apologist who runs Youtube.com/GNRHead And TurretinFan who will be taking the
negative position. He runs Youtube.com/TurretinFan and also TurretinFan.blogspot.com -- he's also a
contributor to AOmin.org. We will now begin the debate.

Mr. Albrecht you now have seven minutes for your first affirmative constructive, you may begin.

William: Today my goal is one that is quite simple. My goal is to simply see what the Bible says about
the blessed Virgin Mary and repeat it. Today my goal is not to attempt to prove any of the Marian
dogmas, but merely to show that true veneration, true honor, is due to the Mother of God and that such
can be found within the New Testament.

While it is clear that Jesus Christ definitely honored his mother, since being a faithful Jew he would have
not of broken the commandment to honor your father and your mother, we come to the question if it is
the Christian's duty to honor his mother Mary.

Today I will make an attempt to come to the Scriptures as one who merely picks up the Bible and reads
it and attempt to understand its plain meaning. There will be no hearkening to Church Fathers, Church
Councils, or Papal encyclicals, or anything of the sort. Rather we will see that no matter what
denomination you come from, that you can see the plain truth of Mary in Scripture.

Our first passage of examination is that of Luke chapter one verse twenty-eight (Luke 1:28). And the
passage reads "And coming in he said to her, hail having been graced, the Lord is with you."

What we have here is a Greek word kecharitōmenē, which is a Greek perfect passive participle.
Kecharitōmenē is from the Greek word charitoō . Mary is called having been graced, or woman who has
been graced, since the gender is that of the feminine type. Whereas we may find the usage of this term
in other places, it is only used in the titular form for Mary in all of Scripture, even including that of the
Septuagint. This is what makes its appearance in Luke chapter one verse twenty-eight so unique. The
Lord is with Mary. God is in Mary's womb.

We are told that Mary is the mother of our Messiah, our Savior, our God, in this direct address from the
angel. This is quite significant. The goal of the Holy Spirit is to show us that God has chosen Mary for this
special role in salvation history. Mary is chosen is chosen to bring our great God and Savior into the
world and it is because of this that she has been graced. She is called kecharitōmenē because God's
grace is in her. God is in her womb. She's blessed because of Christ and Christ alone. We must be quite
clear: without Jesus Christ in Mary's womb, Mary would not be called kecharitōmenē.
Our next passage of examination is commonly called Mary's "Magnificat." And we'll be examining Luke
chapter one, verse forty-six to forty-nine. Starting off with forty six. "And Mary said 'My soul glorifies the
Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me-holy
is his name.'"

It is clear the New Testament shows us that we are to honor and venerate Mary for all generations,
because, as Mary tells us, the Mighty One has done great things for her. It is because of this very reason
that we can call Mary blessed and any other Christian that the Lord has done great things for. Mary is
special, though, because she alone brought forth our Messiah and our God, Jesus Christ. We're told that
all generations will call Mary "blessed." The actual Greek word -- Greek uses the word makariousin from
makarizō , meaning just what our English translations tell us: that Mary was to be called blessed.

Of particularly interest is that even in the beatitudes -- where we can find those that are called blessed --
are the listener followers of Christ called blessed. The Greek word makarioi (from makarios) can be
found used in the Gospel of Matthew. But there is a great variance of degree when we compare those in
the beatitudes and Mary. Mary in verse forty-nine in the first chapter of Luke's Gospel tells us "for the
Mighty One has done great things for me" and it is because of these great things that have been done
for Mary, Christians are to honor and venerate her and to call her blessed for all generations.

Mary is blessed because of Christ and Christ alone. Be not mistaken: none of the grace and favor that
have fallen upon Mary came to her through her own will. Nor are we honoring Mary and Mary alone.
Our honor and respect for the Virgin Mary is because of the great things that have been done for her.
From what is clearly shown in the Scriptures it is right to show veneration to Mary. No mere human
ordained such honor or respect to be given to the blessed Virgin, but God Himself.

The Bible tells us in Galatians chapter five at verses thirteen to fourteen (Gal. 5:13-14), that we should
serve one another in love. Here we find the plural from douleuo used. A loving service is to be given to
fellow Christians. As we have examined in a previous debate, this veneration can and is used in a
religious context, when its referring to the worship of God. But in such passages as these, with a strict
order to serve your fellow Christians in Christ is given, we must also yield to the fact that such a religious
context is ever so present. We are to honor one another in love, and in Mary's case we are to honor and
call her blessed for all time.

The care and respect and love that Jesus also expressed for His mother on the cross should be emulated
by all Christians. Remember those precious words of our Lord and God, when He said in John chapter
nineteen, verses twenty-six to twenty seven (John 19:26-27). And the verses read: "When Jesus then
saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, He said to his mother, 'Woman,
behold, your son!' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!' From that hour the disciple took
her to his own household."
His words to the beloved disciple forever reverberate in the hearts of all Christians. "Behold, you
mother," he says, "Behold, your mētēr." In this particular instance, His great and deep love and care for
His mother is so tremendous that He entrusts her care to that of the beloved disciple. Shouldn't we
imitate Christ and show His mother a mere ounce of the profound love and respect that God has shown
her? I believe, as a Bible-believing Christian, that it is our obligation for all generations.

Lane: Ok, TurretinFan you now have three minutes to cross examine Mr. Albrecht. You may begin.

TurretinFan: Thanks very much.

My first question for you: You spoke about Luke 1:28, and you said that there the term that's translated
by the King James Version as "highly favored" is a titular form of that particular word, and that this is the
only place its mentioned. I wonder whether you've considered Ephesians 1:6?

William: Absolutely I have. And it is not used in the titular form in Ephesians 1:6. And just to be clear, I
wasn't saying that this kecharitōmenē only appears in Luke 1:28 -- I'm also aware that it appears in
Sirach 18:17 and, I believe, in 2 Maccabees. But I'm contending that the difference is that it is used as a
title for Mary. I understand that the verbal form that it comes from (charitoō ) can be found in other
places, but I'm contending that the difference is that it is used as a titular form for Mary.

TurretinFan: What makes you conclude that it's a titular form in Luke 1:28 and not in Ephesians 1:6?

William: I believe in Ephesians 1:6 in the way it is being used -- I don't find any usage of anybody calling
somebody "having been graced" or using it as a title, replacing it for somebody's name. And in Luke
Chapter one Verse twenty-eight (Luke 1:28) we find just that. We find the greeting, "Hail having been
graced" or we could use, "highly favored" -- I prefer "having been graced" as the translation. And as we
see, the angel comes in and he says, "Hail having been graced" "chaire kecharitōmenē" That's quite
different from the usage in Ephesians chapter one, verse six [Eph. 1:6].

TurretinFan: My second question has to do with the comment about Mary's own statement that all
generations will call her blessed. What makes you conclude that that's a command, rather than simply a
statement of fact?

William: I don't quite understand, whether its a command or a statement of fact, don't you believe that
all generations should call her blessed? Regardless, of whether its a command or statement of fact, it's
the truth of Scripture that all generations are to call Mary blessed.

TurretinFan: Well, you said you were going to prove your case from the Bible. So, I was trying to get
whether this verse actually says that it is a command or whether that was something you had sort of
imposed on the text.

William: Well, I don't think I'm imposing anything on the text. Whether it be a command -- it's a fact of
Scripture that all generations are to call Mary blessed.

TurretinFan: Ok, well, my next comment was very similar -- when it says "Behold your mother" was that
a command to John or to all Christians? In the text.

William: In the text, was it a command to John or to all Christians? I believe specifically when He says
"Behold your mother" it is a command specifically to John in that context. He is entrusting her to John's
care, therefore, I believe it would be a command to John in that context, since He calls her his mother.
He entrusts her care to the beloved disciple.

Lane: Ok, that's time. Ok, thank you for that. Turretin[Fan] you now have your negative constructive,
which consists of eight minutes.You may begin when you're ready.

TurretinFan: My presentation today is going to be on the veneration of Mary and the Bible -- what does
it have to say about it? The Roman Catholic Church gives Mary worship in the form of hyper-dulia.
Whether or not that should be called worship is a separate debate. The question today is whether this is
Biblical. And I would tell you the answer is "no." And I'll try to explain why in three parts today. The first
part will be Mary as she is portrayed in the Bible. Number two, what the Bible says about the veneration
of Mary. And then the third section will be responding to what Mr. Albrecht has said.

So, the first part: Mary's portrayal in the Bible. She's portrayed in the Bible as a relatively minor
character. She's only mentioned by name once outside of the Gospels and that's right at the beginning
of the book of Acts. She's only mentioned once by name in the Gospel of Mark. And she's never
mentioned by name in the Gospel of John. Now, of course, she is mentioned in John, but just not by
name. And then there's no real mention of Mary by the Apostle Paul in any of his epistles. There's only
one verse of the Old Testament that clearly relates to Mary and that's a single verse prophesying that
Jesus would be born of a virgin. And so, in general Mary has a fairly minor role in Scripture.

What's her character like? She's portrayed as modest and humble. She's described as being highly
favored by God. And the way in which she is highly favored is that she is the one who gives birth to Jesus
Christ. This term means "highly favored," which is essentially how Mr. Albrecht has translated it, not
"full of grace" as the Vulgate mistranslated it.

Another aspect of Mary is that she's a witness to Jesus' earthly life at a number of critical points. For
example, at the conception, the birth, and the miracle at Cana, and the death of Christ. She's in all of
these and we see that she was interviewed by Luke in the preparation of his Gospel and possibly also by
Matthew as well. And the other sort of interconnection she has with the Apostles in addition to
appearing with the Apostles after Jesus' ascension, in that one place in Acts, is that she was cared for by
John, although John doesn't actually mention her by name anywhere in his Gospel (although, of course,
John doesn't mention himself by name in his Gospel either).

The second section that I'd like to deal with here now is now: what does the Bible actually have to say
about veneration of Mary? Since, you know, generally describing her is one thing, but what about the
issue of veneration. There's sort of three general positive areas where someone might think that there's
an inclination in that direction. The first is the angel's greeting to Mary. The second is Elizabeth's
greeting of Mary. And then the third is some general principles of love of the brethren. As for the third,
there's no call, just because there's a general love of the brethren and service to the brethren, for us to
create a special cult of Mary, or a cult of Albrecht, or a cult of Lane, or a cult of anybody in particular.
And when we talk about the veneration of Mary, we're not just talking about, you know, bringing her a
cup of water when she's thirsty. We're talking about something that's especially particular to Mary -- in
a special reverence that's shown to her -- that's different from just the ordinary reverence we show to
other people in following the law of God. The greetings are interesting, but mostly they just show
politeness. We'll come to the argument that Mr. Albrecht presented earlier from the idea that this was
some kind of titular form of the word for saying that the person is highly favored, in just a minute.

Moving on from the positives to the negatives, there are actually three of the Gospels, the synoptic
Gospels, they each relate an account that show that Mary is really nothing special in the Kingdom of
God. Those are: Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; and Luke 8:19-21. They may all be the same account,
they may be two or more accounts, but in these three accounts, which may or may not be more than
one event, the situation is someone is trying to give Mary special attention -- Mary and Jesus' brethren
special attention. And Jesus turns it around and says 'Look, anyone who believes in me, that's my
mother, that's my brethren.' He's basically saying that there's an equality within the Kingdom of God
among all the believes, such that His mother and His brethren are nobody special. That seems to be the
point that's raised in each of those; in Matthew, and Mark, and Luke -- John doesn't have that same one,
but that's fairly normal, John often doesn't include events that the synoptics include.

There's a second aspect in which we can see veneration of Mary is undone by the Scriptural evidence.
This second area is when Paul talks about the mother of us all. Now recall that there's an argument
that's made that Mary is our mother and, therefore, in some sense she's our mother, because we're in
Christ and, therefore, we need to honor her. But when Paul talks about who's our mother, he says the
mother of us all is the heavenly Jerusalem. He doesn't view it as Mary at all, but as the heavenly
Jerusalem.

And then the third aspect is this title that's sometimes given in Roman Catholicism -- "The Mother of
God" is given to Mary. But the author of Hebrews describes Jesus in this way: he says that He was
"without mother." And now, of course, that can't refer to His humanity, since Jesus was the son of Mary.
So, it must be referred to His divinity. And, so, therefore, in view of Hebrews, its inappropriate to call
Mary by such exalted titles as "The Mother of God."

Now we'll turn to the third section, which is responding specifically to the points that Albrecht has
raised. The first point he raised is this idea that the titular form of the word is used in Luke 1:28. But, on
being pressed upon this, what we see is that it's simply a statement that when the participle essentially
used as a reference to the person. In other words, this is a person who is highly favored. It's not that it's
being used as a title -- like that it has a special capital letter in Greek -- of course, they didn't have that
type of mechanism in Greek (in the original). Rather, what it is, is the fairly rare word is used only a
couple of times. It's only used, maybe, in a similar way, only two times in the New Testament -- in this
place and in Ephesians 1:6. And in Ephesians 1:6 of course its not used as a title. There's not any
particular reason to view it as a title here, except for a desire to use it as a title later. No one ever else
calls her by that title and we're not suggested in that passage to use that as a title. Let me move on to
the second argument.

The second argument is that "all generations will call her blessed." This argument, again, is actually a
statement of fact, that all generations will call her blessed -- its not a command to do so.

The third argument was an argument from Galatians, I believe it was, chapter five, verses thirteen and
fourteen (Gal. 5:13-14)... perhaps it was chapter three. In any event, the idea was that we serve one
another in love. Well, the idea is not that we shouldn't give Mary a glass of cold water if we see her and
she's thirsty. The question is whether or not we are supposed to give some kind of special cultus -- in the
terms that the Roman Catholic Church would use to describe the worship.

Then, the fourth argument was, "behold your mother," but as we brought out during the cross-
examination this is not a command for all Christians, just a command for John. And, of course, John, in
his Gospel, never commands us to worship Mary, or to venerate her in any way.

Lane: Ok, Mr. Albrecht, you now have three minutes to cross-examine TurretinFan, you may begin when
you're ready.

William: Ok, that sounds good. TurretinFan, due to the fact that the Bible tells us that, "all generations,"
and literally in the Greek, "pasai geneai," all generations will call Mary blessed, and the fact that the
Bible clearly shows us that Mary has been graced and will always continue to have that grace within her
person, even after the birth of Christ, does this not entail that there is clear Biblical proof that honor and
respect is due to Mary?

TurretinFan: There's a premise in there, that you stated, which was that the Scriptures suggest that she
continues to have some special role beyond the giving birth to Jesus. Which is a questionable premise.
And without that premise, of course, the conclusion doesn't follow -- that she has some continued
desert of being called ... or ... of being given special reverence.

William: Well, what my contention basically is, is that she will continue to have that grace within her
person even after the birth of Christ. That's all that I'm really contending. Moving on to another question
now, I'll ask, I guess, I'll try and phrase this in a different way. Since God has preordained that we are to
forever call Mary blessed, due to the fact that she is the woman who has been graced, called
kecharitōmenē by the angel of the Lord, does the Greek of Luke 1:28 then entail that we're to give her
true honor and respect, because she is continually one who is graced?

TurretinFan: No. When it says that "all generations will call her blessed" -- it just simply means that all
generations will, indeed, call her blessed. And one way in which that can be the case, is that all
generations will realize that she was given a special favor from God in that she was given the privilege of
carrying in her womb, incarnate God.

William: Alright, I suppose I'll try and continue this a little bit more with you. I guess my question is
pretty much since Luke 1:28 pretty much shows us that Mary will continue to be graced, I guess my
question was whether it was/is alright to continue showing Mary honor and respect? I understand
calling Mary blessed is not anything that we cannot call for other Christians, but wouldn't this be
different in the case of Mary, since she will continually be graced even after birthing Christ?

TurretinFan: Yes, it doesn't say that she will continually be graced even after birthing Christ. That's an
important, underlying, mistaken premise in your assertions that you're throwing at me.

William: So, the usage of kecharitōmenē in the perfect passive participle in the Greek, does not have the
connotation that Mary will continue to have grace even after the birth of Christ?

TurretinFan: The idea of a perfect passive participle, as you should know, implies a past action that has
continuing effects (William interjecting: Absolutely) at the present time, which is the time when the
angel was speaking to Mary.

William: Yes, and is there anything in the verse that shows us that since she is continually being graced
at that current present moment that the grace will cease to be after she births Christ?

TurretinFan: Oh, no, I'm not trying to make an argument from silence. I was leaving that up to your side,
which was asserting that, in fact, it was continuing on -- which, of course, you could never get from that
particular verb.

Lane: Ok, that's time. Ok, Mr. Albrecht you now have your first affirmative rebuttal. You have four
minutes for it. You may begin when you're ready.

William: Alright, great. I think we can clearly see that the Scriptures are far from muddled when it comes
to the subject of the Virgin Mary. Is honor and respect due to the Virgin Mary? We can clearly see that
the answer is yes. Mary's "Magnificat" is the precious song of God's blessings bestowed upon a human
being. When the earth was created, when the heavens were created, when the first human beings were
created, never was such grace known to be given to a creature of the Lord. Yet we can clearly see that
Mary was one who was found to have favor from God. Such favor that all generations are to forever
recognize what God has done for her. All generations are to forever recognize the mighty things that
God has done for her. The Scripture shows us that it is because of God, and God alone, that we are to
give honor to Mary. God is the one that Mary tells us has done great things for her. Holy Writ shows us
that God, being one who has given her the grace and blessings, then entails that we offer true honor
and respect to Mary.
Examining the Bible clearer we can see in Luke chapter eleven verses twenty-seven to twenty-eight
[Luke 11:27-28]. We read: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the
company lifted up her voice, and said to them, Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps which
thou hast sucked. But He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." To
be clear, Christ says "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." In the Greek,
Christ responds with "menounge makarioi." "Indeed blessed," He says, "are those who hear the word of
God and keep it." With this comment He isn't saying that Mary is not blessed and that those who hear
the word are instead. Instead He answers in the affirmative that Mary's very body was blessed and then
reinforces that which is of greater blessedness is that His word be heard and obeyed and kept. Mary did
hear the word of God and did obey it. And actually bore the Word incarnate in her womb.

TurretinFan says he would not like to argue from silence, yet his mere assertion that kecharitōmenē is
not special is fallacious on its very face. We are shown that Mary has been graced in the past and that its
effects continue and never are we told that it ceases; rather we have indications that it doesn't. The very
fact that Mary is forever to be called blessed is an indication of her enduring grace and favor in the eyes
of God. And as a Christian we should honor and we should respect that.

Lane: Ok, TurretinFan, you can now set forth your negative rebuttal. You may begin when you're ready.

TurretinFan: Thanks very much. It's been a pleasure to debate today. I'd like to thank Mr. Albrecht for
his participation and for bearing with my questions and answers.

Now I'd like to sort of summarize the debate. The debate was over the question of whether or not the
Bible promotes the veneration of Mary, and although we saw that Mary is praised in the Scriptures --
she's called blessed -- she's described as having been highly favored -- she's described as a modest and
humble woman, and (as Mr. Albrecht pointed out) she was greatly privileged to have the incarnate Son
of God at her breast. Nevertheless, there's nothing in Scripture that commands any Christian to give her
any special reverence or honor. And so the Roman Catholic view of hyper-dulia is completely unbiblical,
as we've discovered.

Remember, the first section that we talked was the fact that Mary's portrayal in Scripture relatively
minor. She's only mentioned once outside of the Gospels by name. And only mentioned once by name
in Mark, never by name in John, and never by Paul. In fact, as we discussed in the second section, when
Paul talks about who's the mother of us all, he doesn't point, as many might expect, to Mary, but,
instead, he points to the heavenly Jerusalem. She doesn't have a specific role that is taught by Scripture,
as far as having any maternal relationship to us, such that the Fifth Commandment, that we should
honor our father and mother, would apply in some sense, so that we would have to honor her using that
sort of maternal honor, which would still not be hyper-dulia. But lets continue on.

We also saw that the Scriptures describe her as a witness to Jesus' life and that, as well as a great
privilege that we can't experience because we're not around during Jesus' earthly ministry; and that she
was cared for by the beloved disciple John, and interviewed by Luke, who was in the process of
preparing the Gospel of Luke. All these things said, we also saw that there are three passages which may
all be the same event, in which, far from suggesting that Mary is to be specially praised, it's suggested
that she's simply just the same as any other believer. And Mr. Albrecht himself brought this out in his
last speech, when he pointed out, pointed to the verse, which says, that, 'indeed, truly is blessed the
person who believes.' See, all believers are equally blessed with Mary -- there's nothing particularly
special about her and that's really the point to those verses.

We also saw as well, and this wasn't disputed at all by Mr. Albrecht, that when the author of Hebrew
describes Jesus, he calls Him "without mother." And really, this undermines this special title, among
many exalted titles, that the Roman Catholic Church uses. This title "Mother of God" is not only
unbiblical, it's contrary to the Bible, in that it falls afoul of Hebrews 7:3, which describes Jesus as being
like Melchizedek -- being without father or mother: "without father" as to His humanity, "without
mother" as to His Divinity.

Then, when we investigated the arguments that Mr. Albrecht made, we didn't hear what you would
expect -- we didn't hear any verses where there was a command to honor Mary or an example even of
someone giving special honor, or special reverence, to Mary. Aside from the greeting of the angel and
the greeting of Elizabeth, that we already talked about, there's no examples of anyone giving her special
attention; and the one case where we saw something close to giving her special attention is the point
where Jesus took the opportunity to say, 'Oh, no, no, she's nothing special, she's just the same as all the
other believers.'

Mr. Albrecht tries to make an argument from silence on Luke 1:28. He says 'well, she was given this
privilege in the past and it had a continuing effect at the time the angel spoke to her and there's nothing
that ever tells us it stopped.' Well, indeed, there's nothing that tells us whether it stopped or it
continued -- and it's just simply an argument from silence on that point.

He makes a point about something being in a titular form only in Luke 1:28, but it's hardly ever used
throughout Scripture. The word itself is hardly ever used throughout Scripture -- and its not particularly
rare to have people described in terms of characteristics; and in this case the characteristic that was
salient was the fact that she had been privileged with having the Son of God come and be in her womb.

The next argument that we heard was one about all generations calling her blessed, which Mr. Albrecht
continually seemed to try to convert from a simple statement of fact, that all generations will, indeed,
call her blessed, to a command that we must -- as though this were an order: you must call her blessed.
It doesn't say that. I think we tried to bring that out in the cross-examination. And, instead, we got a:
'well, but... shouldn't we?' You know, that... It's not in the text. It doesn't say that we are to do so -- it
just says that people will call her blessed. And the reason why we call her blessed, of course, is that she
received an enormous blessing from God. Its quite true, it was an immense privilege for her to be the
mother of Jesus, to have the incarnate Son of God in her womb. It was an extraordinary blessing. And
she is blessed. And we call her blessed. But that's a far cry from giving her hyper-dulia.
The next argument was one from Galatians -- about how we serve one another in love. But, of course,
again, that's not hyper-dulia. That's not veneration in the sense of a cultus, and the sense of what we
talk about religious veneration in theology, we're not talking simply about obeying the second table of
the Law.

The fourth argument was this argument from, "Behold your mother," but, as we discovered, that was
specifically made to John and there's no where in Scripture that suggests, or implies, or states that this is
to have any broader application than John. Of course, John himself, while he did care for Mary, he never
mentions her by name in his Gospel (although, of course, he does mention her without using her name).

We hear from Mr. Albrecht that Scriptures are very clear on this issue. He started his initial speech with
that, he mentioned in his last one, and I wouldn't be surprised if he mentions it in his final speech. But,
what they're clearly here, is clearly silent. They never give any examples of people venerating Mary in
any special way, without Jesus coming and saying, 'Wait a minute, she's just the same as anyone else.'
And, we never have any commands, or instructions, or exhortations, to venerate Mary in any particular
way.

And, instead of that, and instead of those commands, instead of those instructions, we have a relegation
of Mary essentially to the Gospels -- with a brief mention at the very beginning of Acts. No mention
throughout Paul's epistles. She's not this central figure next to Jesus. She's not described as the "Queen
of Heaven" or any of these other exalted titles that are given in Roman Catholicism today. In short, what
we see is that the entire cult of Mary, the entire worship in the form of hyper-dulia of Mary that we see
in Roman Catholicism today -- is unbiblical.

And consequently, when Christians are seeking to follow the Bible and to follow what the Apostles
taught, which we know through Scriptures -- we are not to worship Mary, we're not to give her special
reverence, special attention, and we're not to treat her any different from any other believer -- although
she was greatly privileged and although she was given great favor from God.

Lane: Ok, Mr. Albrecht, you now have four minutes for your second affirmative rebuttal. You may begin
when you're ready.

William: I think that anyone that comes to the Scriptures without any pre-conceived notions or bias will
find that Mary was special, because of God and God alone. They will find that Mary is called 'forever
blessed' and 'the one who has been graced'. We find a mighty angel of the Lord even greeting her with a
unique title that no other creature in all the Scripture is addressed with.

If anyone has noticed, they will see that I came to this debate with one goal -- not to appeal to any
doctrines, not to appeal to the authority of any church, any denomination, or any church council. I didn't
quote an Catholic scholars, Protestant scholars, Church Fathers, or even Protestant Reformers for that
matter. I presented passages from the Bible and put them forth and examined their relevant portions in
the Greek. I didn't attempt to yank any doctrines from the Scriptures. My goal was to merely present
that the mother of Christ, the mother of our Savior, the Mother of our God (a term which TurretinFan is
clearly confused about) was due religious veneration and that such a fact was present in the New
Testament.

The religious veneration of Mary clearly differs from that of other creatures. Only Mary had the favor to
carry God in her womb and to bring God the Second Person of the Trinity into this world. With that clear
examination of Scripture we find that only Mary has been graced with this type of gratia from God.
Mary's "Magnificat" is evidence enough for those that are faithful to the word of God, that it is right and
good to call her blessed forever. The very word of God, which Christians should cherish as inerrant, tells
us that her grace is enduring and shows us a precious and loving image of our Lord giving His mother
into the care of the disciple whom He loved dearly.

The Scripture continues to show us Mary's special role in Luke chapter one, verses forty-one to forty-
four (Luke 1:41-44). Upon reading this, we see that Elizabeth has recognized that Mary is carrying her
Lord, and her Messiah, and her God, in her womb. After that, being filled with the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth
says that Mary is blessed among women and blessed is the Messiah that she carries in her womb. And,
indeed, Mary was more blessed than any other woman and more special than any other woman that we
see in the Bible, because of the love and grace of God.

TurretinFan further says that the Apostle Paul doesn't point to Mary as mother of us all, yet his usage,
Paul's usage, in the passage of Jerusalem is not in a maternal connotation. Furthermore, this isn't a
debate about Mary's heavenly motherhood, but rather a debate about veneration that is due to Mary.

TurretinFan also points to some verses in which it is argued that Jesus replaces His biological family for
His spiritual family. This argument holds no water at all. If Jesus were replacing His family for His spiritual
family, then we would have to exclude His family from what Jesus says. Jesus says, "Whoever does God's
will is my brother, and sister, and mother." And we know that Mary did, indeed, do God's will. Her very
"Magnificat" shows us that her soul rejoices in her Lord, because of the great things God has done for
her. Jesus never has the intention to remove His familial bond from His mother or he wouldn't have his
continual care for His mother shown in the Scripture.

Furthermore, we are told that Mary is portrayed as a minor character in the New Testament, in the
Bible. Yet if we examine the Old Testament (we'll relegate ourselves to the Old Testament), there is no
explicit, notice how I say explicit, description of the Trinity; yet, we wouldn't claim that the Trinity plays
a minor role at all. Arguments from silence are quite weak.

Furthermore, TurretinFan also says the Vulgate mistranslates by saying, "full of grace," in Luke 1:28.
Brother Jerome's usage of, "full of grace," is a viable translation. If we realize that the gratia that Mary
has been given to her is by God and God alone, Mary is, indeed, full of grace, since Christ is in her womb
and has bestowed this grace on her. Just as we can call Mary, 'highly favored,' -- yet the 'favoring' is not
intrinsic in the text, but, rather, the grace is. And, as the Greek title kecharitōmenē shows us, Mary's
grace endures forever, because all generations will called her blessed, all generations will recognize her
grace and her favor, and as such we should honor and respect and venerate the Mother of our God.

Lane: Ok, that now concludes our debate. Mr. Albrecht your contact information is:
http://www.youtube.com/gnrhead and TurretinFan has turretinfan.blogspot.com and
youtube.com/turretinfan.

Thank you both for being with us at today's debate and thank you everyone for listening.