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ARCHIVES | 1972

Fosse Discusses Creation of ‘Pippin’

By LAURIE JOHNSTON NOV. 7, 1972

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This is a digitized version of an article from The Times’s print archive,
before the start of online publication in 1996. To preserve these articles as
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Who gave “Pippin’ a bed to romp on and

Irene Ryan a bouncing ball to singalong
with, and changed ‘War Is a Science”
from a Gilbert and Sullivan‐style song
into a minstrel show and invented
outright a role with “a Pirandello aspect”
for Ben Vereen?

Bob Fosse, the director and

choreographer, takes both credit and
responsibility for “an incredible amount
of change” in the new musical comedy
about Charlemagne's son. The book is by
Roger O. Hirson, with music and lyrics by
Stephen Schwartz.

VIEW PAGE IN TIMESMACHINE

“I don't think you would recognize the
original material that Stuart Ostrow [the
November 7, 1972, Page 26
producer] brought me a year ago,” Mr.
The New York Times Archives
Fosse said yesterday.

The triple‐medium man, who has also

directed the film “Cabaret” and the Liza
Minnelli television special, takes, also, a certain amount of umbrage at even
the friendliest of the generally friendly critics when they rate “Pippin” a
triumph of his own razzle‐dazzle over substance. What he has clone, he
insists, is to take “malleable material” and turn it into his “personal
statement” that — at least on the subjects of war and the family—is “pretty
profound.”

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/11/07/archives/fosse-discusses-creation-of-pippin.html[2/13/2019 4:26:23 PM]

Fosse Discusses Creation of ‘Pippin’ - The New York Times

A Jolting Message

“Besides,” he said a bit testily, “I don't think the book is all that weak for the
purpose. The ‘Man of La Mancha’ or ‘Fiddler’ form doesn't interest me.”
In the Fosse office, posters and other memorabilia deliver a jolting message:
It was in 1954, with “Pajama Game,” that the 26‐year‐old Hollywood
dancer‐actor hit Broadway as a choreographer and won the first of his five
Tony Awards. His shows staged here have since rolled on to nine, including
four hits starring Gwen Verdon: “Damn Yankees” (1955), “New Girl in
Town” (1957), “Redhead” (1959) and “Sweet Charity” (1966), which he later
directed as a movie with Shirley MacLaine.

He and Miss Verdon were married in 1960 and have been separated, he
said, for a year and a half, a state that obviously has not produced joy in Mr.
Fosse. But he was looking forward to the prospect of a Thanksgiving
weekend trip to Disneyland with their 9‐year‐old daughter, Nicole
Providence.

He doesn't suggest an exdancer—or a Dobie Gillis as in the movie role he

once played—though he is slimhipped and quick and even his bearded,
balding head and glasses make him look less like a 45‐year‐old than like a
boy made up as one.

“The statement of the show is that life is pretty crumby but, in the end,
there stands the family—pretty ugly, stripped of costumes and magic, but
holding hands,” he said, all but wiping away a tear.

Started Out as Hoofer

The show and the roles of Pippin, played by Broadway newcomer John
Rubinstein, and of the Leading Player, performed by the black actordancer
Ben Vereen, have reminded viewers of Candide, Peer Gynt, Pilgrim's
Progress and the Bluebird‐of‐Happiness ‐in ‐your‐own‐backyard, not to
mention the Master of Ceremonies in “Cabaret” (Mr. Fosse directed the
movie version), a comic black lago, God—and the devil that made Flip
Wilson do it.

“I don't hesitate to lift from every form of American show business,” said
Mr. Fosse, who started out as a hoofer at 13 in Chicago. “I love the old
minstrel shows. I was raised on vaudeville, burlesque, striptease and cheap
nightclubs. I put them all in ‘Pippin,’ along with operetta, soap opera with
organ music and a few things I learned doing movies and TV.”

“Great freedom” was given him by Mr. Hirson, as well as by Mr. Ostrow,
who was also “just marvelously supportive,” he said.

“They did pull back when I put in that bed, which wasn't in the script,” he
said with a small grin. “And they were aghast when I suggested the two
dancers"—who comically dance out the initial coital fiasco of Pippin and
Catherine (the widow who sets her cap for Pippin)—"but after they saw it,
the word was ‘Go ahead."’

When he first read the book and lyrics he was “frightened by the naiveté of
the concept, a boy seeking fulfillment,” Mr. Fosse said.

“I said the boy must be tempted by suicide—I'm fascinated by suicide,” he

said, hunching momentarily in gloom. “When the men went to war, they
mainly just sang a song and went. There was no sex, really, so I added all
the possible variations I thought were theatrically allowable.

“I warned everybody to be ready for a lot of changes but I haven't got the
kind of mind to say ahead of time, ‘It's going to be this way when we're

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/11/07/archives/fosse-discusses-creation-of-pippin.html[2/13/2019 4:26:23 PM]

Fosse Discusses Creation of ‘Pippin’ - The New York Times

finished.” I get involved in the material and the people. And I never enjoyed
rehearsals so much or had such a great cast—they really swung with me.”

He enjoyed the “closest collaboration” with Tony Walton and Patricia

Zipprodt, designers of the ele gantly simple, imaginative and flexible
scenery and costumes. “After I emphasized the basic needs for lots of
movement,” Mr. Fosse recalled, “I just said, ‘Let's make it a magic‐show—
let's make things appear and disappear.’ “

Tries for Simplicity

Of the choreography, he said thoughtfully, “I used to be more involved in

patterns and complex steps. Now I try for the simplest thing that will say
what I want to say.”

Of the music he would say only that Stephen Schwartz, the 24‐year‐old
composer, “wrote most of it a long time ago.”

“I had trouble with Schwartz—we fought all the way,” he said, almost gently.
“He's said he'd never work with me again. Let's just say I wouldn't be eager.
I think he's very talented. But not as talented as he thinks he is. When I was
two years older than Schwartz, I was getting $100 a week as choreographer
for ‘Pajama Game.’ “

For “Pippin” he is getting 5 per cent of the weekly boxoffice receipts plus
subsidiary rights. There will be road companies “if it's as big a hit as we
hear,” and Mr. Fosse thinks he “could see it as a Fellini‐like movie.”

“I've been swinging, very free in the last year and a half, and it can be a
dangerous way to work. But I'm no longer as afraid. Maybe it comes out of
desperation. Maybe I owe it all to anger —at myself, at my marriage falling
apart, at a bruised ego when others are called great choreographers.”

But what can the critics do to me now?” he asked, wearily. “Sometimes I'm
creative, sometimes I'm a hack. People have two sides—and if you're always
told to be safe, you'll only work that way.”

A version of this archives appears in print on November 7, 1972, on Page 26 of the New York edition with the
headline: Fosse Discusses Creation of ‘Pippin’. Order Reprints | Today's Paper | Subscribe

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