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Robin Kinross I want to start by asking you

Paul Mijksenaar:
a conversation about the relation between academic research
and a lecture and practical design. You are someone who has
done both, and tried to relate research to prac-
tice.
Paul Mijksenaar And that is the most interest-
ing thing - to use research. Most clients cannot
be interested in this, because of time and
money: they just want a solution., drawn from
their own and the designer's experience. We
Robin Kinross emphasize research., and sometimes the client is
interested and has the money to do something.
I always like to try to make a step forward.
K You have had a long connection with the
The first text printed here is industrial design department at the Delft Tech-
the lightly edited transcript of a nische Universiteit. Has this fed back into your
conversation with Paul Mijks- design work?
enaar, recorded at his office in M Yes, for example we did tests for the road-
October 1 9 9 1 . After training
side signs at Schiphol. We made slides for dif-
as a product designer, Mijks-
enaar started in 1966 to work ferent signs, and placed them electronically in
in industrial & graphic design. an existing situation. We did this - with Theo
In the 1980s he was with Total Boersema, an ergonomist and psychologist,
Design in Amsterdam. In 1986 who works at Delft. We were interested to see
he set up his own office; its
if there was a difference between the existing
principal area of work, and the
main subject of this conversa­ road-sign system and a new system, with new
tion, is the design of public colours, and in other respects different. Some
information. In 1 9 9 1 the office people were afraid that if we introduced a new
took on the job of revising the system for the airport only, then drivers would
signing at Schiphol airport.
be confused. That was tested in Delft.
Mijksenaar has written arti­
Before this, we tested the names of destina-
cles and published booklets Robin Kinross is a typographer and
and calendars about design; tions that we put on the airport signs. For exam- small publisher. He writes about the
for a time ( 1 9 7 8 - 8 8 ) he also ple, for the departures hall we tested what were theory and history of graphic design.
taught part-time at the Tech­ the best descriptive terms: 'passengers', 'depart-
Authors' addresses
nische Hogeschool (now Univ­ ing passengers', 'departing flights' - about ten
ersiteit) at Delft. In January Robin Kinross
of them. And we had to differentiate between 5 1 Grafton Road
1993, Paul Mijksenaar was
appointed professor in the visitors who are going to catch a flight, and London NW5 3DX
England
Industrial Design faculty there, those who come just to look at the aeroplanes.
Paul Mijksenaar
with special responsibility for At Heathrow they have a good solution: the Bureau Paul Mijksenaar
visual information design. His second group is called 'spectators'. We tried Dreeftoren
inaugural lecture summarized Haaksbergweg 15
to find a Dutch equivalent for that.
several current strands of 1 1 0 1 BP Amsterdam Bullewijk
interest in information design, K You tested the signs in situ? The Netherlands
and an account of it follows M N o , that was another kind of test. You
the conversation. can't show people ten signs on the same occa-

105

Information Design Journal 7:2 (1993), 105–114. DOI 10.1075/idj.7.2.02kin


ISSN 0142–5471 / E-ISSN 1569–979X © John Benjamins Publishing Company
Robin Kinross ■ Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

sion. We made words on plastic cards. Each ISO committee is thinking about a shorter pro-
expression, with about six to eight alternatives. cess. 1 Most of the symbols that we use are ISO
People were told what the goal of the message symbols. But, for example, for 'transfer passen-
was, and then they had to rank the alternatives, gers', we designed a new one, and tested it in
from least good to best. T h e important thing printed booklets with information about Schip-
was that they were not asked what they found hol - and saw how people reacted. It depends:
best, but what they thought other people would I don't think you have to test everything. Some-
find best (or what would result in the least mis- times you just have to test if people understand
takes) . This gets round the fact that, for exam- it; not if they like it, or think it's beautiful.
ple, some people may be too familiar with the K That raises another matter I wanted to ask
airport. We did this also with pictograms. It is about: what one might call 'pleasure'. How do
an indirect approach to the problem. People you regard the element, of pleasure, say, in
were also able to suggest their own solutions looking, at a sign?
too, though only a very few did this. There M Sometimes there's a tendency to be just a
were some interesting findings. Especially for functional or ergonomic designer, which is dif-
the signs about people coming to meet trav- ferent from design for pleasure. Sometimes I'm
ellers. Sometimes it seems that English is so busy with the underlying aspects - function-
more appropriate for many purposes. al, ergonomic - that I have no time to 'design'.
K On public signs? That's sometimes a problem. In this respect we
M Yes. Sometimes it's not even shorter, are completely the opposite to Gert Dumbar,
which is crazy, because, compared with Dutch, for example. Sometimes I look for more 'plea-
German, or French, English text is usually the sure', more time for 'designing'. I like a lot of
shortest in length. But, for example 'departing Gert Dumbar's work, because it has something
flights' (16 characters and a space). We would open: he is able to spend time on finding nice
call it 'vertrekvluchten' (15 characters) in just solutions. 2 We never permit ourselves that
one word. Sometimes the English is even longer time. There must be a link between these two
than this, comparatively. But I'm not a linguist. areas.
T h e n there is the problem of 'British English' or K But, what is this 'pleasure'? Can you pin
'American English'. At the moment Schiphol it down?
prefers British English, because most passen- M Sometimes you can come to a solution by
gers have that as their version of the language. just a functional approach. You narrow down
In design, I always like to get to the informa- all the possibilities systematically. There are
tion itself: to do research, to clarify the informa- perhaps two different approaches.
tion, sometimes to work with others - such as One is if, at the final stage, there is more than
the people who write the information. one way to do something, and each is function-
K Then is there another stage of testing, of ally OK, then as a designer I think 'do I like it?'
the design proposal? or 'maybe we can do something new with this?'
M Well, with pictograms, you know there is 1 Jeremy Foster: his proposal for a new ISO procedure for
an ISO standard on testing, which is very com- the development of public information symbols was pub-
plicated: a ranking test, an appropriateness test lished in IDJ 6/2, as 'Standardising public information
- two tests - and, if you do it well, you have to symbols'.
2 Gert Dumbar is a Dutch graphic designer, working with
do it in different continents. It's expensive to
Studio Dumbar in The Hague; he is one of the most wide-
do; just now the English representative on the ly noticed post-modernist designers of the 1980s.

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Robin Kinross ■ Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

or I make a visual appeal so that people are Another example is grids. They can be bor-
attracted. Like the 'AIDA' formula., used in the ing: always the same grid. Jock Kinneir3 said to
sales and marketing world: Attraction., Interest, me once that a grid - or a manual - is a tool for
Desire, Action. That's nothing to do with ergo- the designer. I've always remembered that. He
nomics as such, which then becomes just a side- meant that the designer must always be allowed
line. I think that when you are designing things to change the grid or the manual: that is only
you have to let people feel comfortable and where you start from. Within a visual identity,
happy with something, even though this is not you can make exceptions, which, in a way,
'functional'. But if people like signs - though emphasize the grid - because they don't fit it.
which madman actually likes signs? - I think it's K It sounds a bit dangerous: if you have a
because they are aware of a sign as part of a sys- large group of designers, all changing the grid
tem. They are attracted by that aspect: which is as they wish ...
a 'functional' one. But this is one way: a func- M Of course. But, take the IBM identity.
tional approach, and then you add the 'plea- There is really only one element that you are
sure' (perhaps colour, or, some other element) never allowed to change - the logo - and I'm
at the last moment. not even sure about that. IBM's strategy is to
Then you could approach 'function' from hire top-quality designers, architects, and then
another direction. For example, yesterday in a they are sure that they always have design
car park I noticed this problem: how to code the quality, and they can rely on the house style -
floors so that people can remember where they sometimes it is just winked at. For example, an
left their car, perhaps after several days. You advertisement for the company that had a row-
can do it 'functionally', by numbers, or by ing oar painted with blue and white stripes, as
colour. People who are not very familiar with the only element of the house style. That is one
design often want to do this: but it can be diffi- level of 'quality'. You cannot prescribe that.
cult, because there are so many different colour A manual serves, let's say, 80 or 90 per cent of
coding systems already in this area. And, for normal business, especially design on paper.
example, if you are in the 'red section' you may But for a sign system and how you put signs on
not be aware that there are other colours or sec- a building, or for the annual report, you need
tions, so that information has to be stated too, something more than a manual. You know the
perhaps on the ticket. They do this at Orly air- booklet that London Transport have just
port. But it can be very abstract. You see four issued?4 It's not a real manual, more a set of
colours, and one is accented, with an arrow or recommendations. There are rules and guide-
something. Many people are not aware that this lines. I like this combination.
is telling them something. They just think 'oh K Have you changed over the years in this?
that's nice'. Another approach is what they do Is this an approach that comes with learning
at Disneyland: one part is called 'Pluto', anoth- from experience?
er is 'Mickey Mouse', and so on. When you M Yes, I think so. Especially in corporate
leave, you are told to remember that your car is identity, there's been a lot of thinking and writ-
in 'Pluto', and this is repeated many times by ing over the years. We don't do much corporate
different means, perhaps even by little Plutos. 3 British graphic designer: his practice, Kinneir/Calvert,
There is no typographic or abstract coding here. was responsible for a series of major public signing systems
It's a very different approach for a designer. It in the 1960s and 1970s.
4 'How to use the London Transport corporate identity',
has to do with pleasure, and also with function.
London Transport internal document [no date; 1990/91?]

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Robin Kinross • Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

identity work, so this is more a theoretical point. there is a lack of awareness about these prob-
K You have been involved in the new PTT lems. It is always that a new building is made -
identity. 5 and there is no place to fix a sign on it. And then
M We structured the manual. I was the editor there has to be a large construction just to put a
of the design manual, and produced the con- sign on a building. But architects don't like let-
cept of the different parts, and so on. T h e inter- ters on their buildings: neither inside nor out.
esting thing is that it is not a real 'manual'. It It seems they do everything to put difficulties in
doesn't give measurements; there are hardly any the way. T h e n if the firm has letters as part of
rules in it. It is only a kind of appetizer, giving the building - which can be marvellous - they
the spirit of the house style. I like that approach. will eventually move (as with the McGraw-Hill
For anything to be designed - a business card, building in New York). It's a problem of mod-
or booklet, or building - you have to follow a ern commercial life, but architects hardly con-
kind of logistical route, by numbers, through sider it. And then there is the problem of
contact addresses. You are never allowed to do entrances. I've seen many buildings where you
things on your own. It's more like a catalogue. can't find the entrance. So you have to put a
'What do I need? How can I get it?' Well, you sign pointing to the entrance - crazy.
phone someone. K It's not changing?
K And the books were designed and produced M Yes, a little. Thanks to postmodernism,
to support this, with a lot of colour and complex you have Greek entrances. At least it is an
printing. entrance, and you don't have to put a sign to
M Yes. T h e corporate identity scheme itself show where it is.
was largely designed by Dawn Barrett, who Then in the interior there are strange things.
introduced the principle of 'levels'. A business Where corridors cross, I could in theory point
card is on the lowest level: the unique informa- out, beforehand, all the possibilities for placing
tion on it is just a person's name. At the highest signs. There are not so many: on the ceiling or
level, work must be done by qualified designers, the wall. But you never find a ceiling that can
in collaboration with a qualified advisor at the easily carry a sign, although now they are all
P T T . At that level the designer has a lot of free- designed to take lighting systems. Doors some-
dom: only the logo should be there. Just now times have a 'service panel' for lighting or tele-
we are working on a manual for brochures and phone wires, but no place for a sign. It amazes
booklets - on the first or second levels - which me! It is only when the building is finished that
really is a tool for people to make their own the architects or designers think about it, and
booklets, without a designer. For example, this then we have to find solutions. I think in their
might be a leaflet of telephone instructions. hearts they don't even like people in buildings.
K What about the relation between signs and K Yes, and they never photograph their new
architecture? It seems that all the time you have buildings with people in them.
to fight the architecture. M Nor after a year of use, when people have
M I think this is true. I have given talks about begun to modify their rooms, with holiday post-
it to interior designers and architects. I think cards stuck on the walls! I once wrote a little
article about difficult relations with architects.
5 With its privatization in 1989, a new 'corporate image'
K Can I ask you about your archive of infor-
for the Dutch postal and telecommunications service - the
PTT - was introduced. The principal designers were Studio mation design. It seems a remarkable thing.
Dumbar, for whom Dawn Barrett was working. M It's not so much an archive, more a docu-

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Robin Kinross ■ Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

mentation centre. It has current resources, like


manuals for sign systems or surveys of trade
marks. There are no Blaeu atlases. It's not a
museum, but a resource to consult while we are
designing, here in the office. It became a formal
thing, because I found I had covered some fields
rather completely - pictograms, symbols, trade
marks, cartography, typography. And for pic-
tograms, there are not just books about the sub-
ject, but specimens too - for example on pack-
aging. This is something that is not done by
many other people: to collect the real things.
Then I've always collected interesting work by
colleagues - Jan van Toorn, Wim Crouwel,
Anthon Beeke, Gert Dumbar - just as it came
to me, not looking for it especially or buying it.
All the calendars I made for Mart. Spruijt are
based on the collection.
K And it's now established as a 'Stichting',
a foundation.
M Yes, that was done to get government
funds, which we didn't get in the end. But there
are discussions about a design institute here in
the Netherlands, and where it should be estab-
lished: Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam,
Eindhoven .. . 6 But, of course, it's a matter of
money, and nothing is sure yet. T h e people I
asked about this said 'wait until the institute is
established, and then you can get your own
affiliation to that, for the documentation cen-
tre'. At the moment, I know everything that's in
the collection, but it is very difficult to make it
accessible to anyone who might want to use it.
We would have to make our own classification
system and apply it: an enormous job. So at the
moment it's a private collection: open to profes-
sional colleagues to come here and use, if they
pay for it. For students or researchers, it's free,
apart, from expenses such as photocopying.

6 In February 1993 a director for this Vormgevingsinstituut


was appointed: the British journalist and soi-disant 'cultur-
al engineer' John Thackera. In 1994 it will open officially in
Amsterdam, with a budget of three million guilders.

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Robin Kinross • Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

Paul Mijksenaar's Delft lecture in reliability the two are about equal. He sug-
gested that the openness of this way of looking
As a professor in the Faculty of Industrial at things also had the advantage of avoiding
Design at the Technische Universiteit Delft, dogma in design.
Paul Mijksenaar is preceded by two other Two instances of design dogma are now
graphic designers: R. D . E. Oxenaar and Wim being tackled in the work that Bureau
Crouwel. But where they have seen themselves Mijksenaar is doing at Schiphol airport. Text
as just 'graphic designers', Mijksenaar has for set without capital letters was one of the ideals
many years chosen to identify himself as an of the New Typography movement, which grew
information designer. He has published and lec- up in Germany in the 1920s. The idea was
tured widely on the subject, and has been an adopted in the Netherlands, and was still in
editorial advisor to IDJ since its inception. Thus vogue when in 1967 Total Design worked on
although the job at Delft involves attendance the signing for Schiphol, which does without
just one day a week, his professorship is a mat- capitals. But even at that time there was enough
ter of significance for the public recognition of evidence to support the view that initial capitals
information design. help recognition of words in signs, especially
words of importance. 7 Another dogma also had
Paul Mijksenaar's inaugural lecture at Delft,
its effect on the new Schiphol of 1967: that pic-
delivered on 20 January 1993, was a summary
tograms in signing are inferior to verbal state-
and explanation of the scope of information
ment, and lead to noise rather than commun-
design. It opened with a set of examples of the
ication. But meanwhile they have entered com-
failure of certain designed objects in everyday
mon use, especially in the instructions provided
life, which can often be seen as failures of infor-
with globally distributed consumer goods.
mation design. For example: public transport
From May 1993, signs that use initial capital
maps in Amsterdam and in New York that have
letters will be installed at Schiphol, and picto-
had to be withdrawn, because of users' inability
grams will be introduced too.
to understand them.
Mijksenaar went on to consider the issue of This brought the discussion back to the
'form and function', as it has been theorized Vitruvian conditions and to Mijksenaar's 3-B
especially by architects over many years. These adaptation of them. Referring to Donald
formulations seem continually to rehearse the Norman's The psychology of everyday things, he
three conditions of good building, as put for- attempted to sum it all up. 'Information must
ward by the Roman architect Vitruvius: 'com- be as simple, clear and unambiguous as possi-
modity, firmness, and delight'. He proposed a ble, but rich in details and preferably imparted
specifically Dutch adaptation of the triad: a '3-B in discrete parts or levels, through which each
formula' of betrouwbaarheid (reliability), bruik- user can find what they particularly want: "for
baarheid (usefulness), bevrediging (pleasure). everyone what they desire".' But then he added
This could be shown visually by a kind of three- an unfashionable qualification: 'The challenge
part thermometer, shown as an inverted Y. to researchers and students is to further eluci-
Products then receive a more complex evalua- date these basic principles of design and to
7 Around that time Mijksenaar himself wrote an article
tion than one that relies on a single-factor
about 'typography in signing: or the struggle between aes-
description. For example, in Mijksenaar's view,
thetics and the slide-rule': 'Typografie bij bewegwijzering:
the Dutch road-signs surpass the British ones in
of de strijd tussen esthetiek en rekenliniaal', Graficus
usefulness, but are noticeably less pleasurable;
Revue, vol. 53, no. 3, 1971.

Information design journal 7/2 (1993) 105-114

110
Robin Kinross . Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

Signing at
Schipol airport
before Bureau
Mijksenaar's
redesign.

Schipol in July
1993, with the
new signing
and informa­
tion system in
operation.

Configuration
of a public
information
display screen:
text under the
headings alter­
nates between
Dutch and
English.

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Robin Kinross ■ Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

investigate the possibilities of a social., collective Examples of the first are size and tone-value;
grammar for conveying information through examples of the second are colour and form.
image and text'. Then there are supporting elements that serve
T h e next part of the lecture resumed the his- to accentuate or help bring order: for example,
tory of visual information or data graphics, from lines or rules, areas of colour, overall frame-
Nicolas Oresme through Descartes, William works. Differences both in importance and in
Playfair, Charles Joseph Minard, and Otto kind can be expressed by these means too. This
Neurath: unknown perhaps to students of division of visual elements allows and encour-
industrial design, but familiar territory to read- ages an analysis of the content of whatever is
ers of IDJ. T o this history Mijksenaar appended being designed. One would start with a matrix
graphic representations of the disaster at analysis of content or function, which also
Amsterdam Bijlmermeer in October 1992, includes the possible appearing elements in an
when an El Al aircraft crashed into a council artefact. Interactive media allow the testing of
housing block. He showed a computer anima- items in development: he gave an example of a
tion reconstructing the events, and also an photocopier control panel.
'infographic' shown on television news. In its The ergonomic approach to design, especially
conjunction of different kinds of information to to typography, can be salutary. For example, it
build a total picture, the latter recalled Minard's suggests that priority lies with the large factors
celebrated diagram of Napoleon's retreat from of intelligibility, of spatial sequence and direc-
Moscow. This led Mijksenaar to consider the tion. Type size and line-length follow. Less
factors in chosing the means of graphic presen- important still is typeface design. And yet
tation - drawing or photography, abstraction or choice of typeface is where many designers
realism - and to conclude that pragmatic and start, sometimes even adding a new one to the
contextual considerations would always be 60,000 or so that already exist. In Mijksenaar's
decisive. Nevertheless, as against purely verbal ergonomically influenced view, 'time' is the
or textual means, 'images allow an alternative most important element. This is well known to
perception and they motivate the user'. architects, exhibition designers and film direc-
This discussion of images was then taken fur- tors; but graphic designers often don't recog-
ther by Mijksenaar. Jacques Bertin in his Sémi- nize it. With a book or a screen, 'time' means
ologie graphique (1967) had proposed a taxono- the sequence and also the direction of reading
my of 'graphic variables': size, tone, texture, or use. Although the visionary New Typograph-
direction, colour and form. Although taken up ers of the 1920s spoke of the 'bioscopic book',
by some cartographers, the theory remains graphic designers have forgotten this. They may
unknown to graphic designers: and even if they use devices such as transparent paper, emboss-
have heard of it, it doesn't lend itself to practical ing, or fold-outs on booklets, but for no pur-
application. pose: it just seems false.
Over the years, Mijksenaar has tried to make Turning away from contemplation of all this
a variant taxonomy that would be more man- designerism, Paul Mijksenaar took up a
ageable and practically relevant. He outlined favourite theme: homage to the everyday. The
this as follows. First one can make a two-part traditional assumption that design is a branch of
division between those variables that make a the visual arts needs to be questioned. Certainly
difference in importance or hierarchy, from oth- designers can also find rich inspiration in music,
ers that make a difference in kind or category. nature or technics. And the everyday world is a

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Robin Kinross . Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

source of richness, even those objects consid-


ered banal, ordinary, ugly. The study of such
things [like those shown on this page] for inspi-
ration rather than imitation, can encourage
fresh and surprising work. 8
Between the worlds of research and practice,
there is a gap. In Mijksenaar's own words, it is
as follows. 'On the one hand, the results of sci-
entific research are overwhelming; on the other
hand, it is distressing to see how little research
finds its way back into the design of visual infor-
mation. For this we must first blame the
researchers. The average research report is
absolutely inaccessible to lay people. And with
its conclusions and recommendations - which is
what all the talk is about - the practically mind-
ed designer is almost made ill by the many
'reservations', which would not be out of place
in the small print of an insurance policy. So
designers find other priorities. Self-expression,
creativity, experiment, and 'boundary-breaking'
are what motivate them. All this is to the detri-
ment of their profession, and of any under-
standing of the communicative task of a
product: usefulness and reliability. T h e perpe-
trators or victims of this distorted view are
becoming teachers now. So it will take time and
struggle before some balance can be restored
between content and form, a balance that
allows recognition for 'pleasurable function'.
T h e application of microelectronics is making
products ever more multi-functioning. Instruct-
ional manuals get ever thicker, control panels
more complex. The time has come to reverse
the usual priorities: to start the design process
8 Among the calendars that Mijksenaar compiled and
designed for the printer Mart. Spruijt, two were devoted to
this idea. 'Gebruiksaanwijzingen' ('Instructions for use'), 1. Need the biggest (or the smallest) drive
of 1981/82, showed greatly enlarged details of visual r i v e t s made? Southco h a s them on the shefl
Plus plenty in between . . . f r o m ⅛", to ½"
instructions for a razor, a tooth-brush, toys, etc. In 'Nooit diameter. Only Southco stocks a l l of these
bij stil gestaan...'. ('Never thought about it...') of 1985/86,
everyday items - spoon, sugar-lump, coat-hanger, etc -
were shown in detail-revealing black & white photographs.
(See the illustration on page 109.)

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Robin Kinross ■ Paul Mijksenaar: a conversation and a lecture

with the control panel, the manual, the captions


or the sign-system. We should take our bearings
from users, their limits and possibilities. And
only then design the product. For example,
we could pick up the work that the industrial
designer Henry Dreyfuss carried out in his
Symbol sourcebook (1972), which in turn carried
on previous work by Otto Neurath and others.
A particular instance, now being affected by
new means of communication, is the safety
instructions given to air passengers. In place of
the familiar plan-with-illustrations, could one
do better with photographs or videos? Or
should the life-belts first be redesigned?
Paul Mijksenaar closed his lecture with
another quotation about form and function.
T h e debate over design theory has been domi-
nated by the sayings of American and German
architects, but we could do better with a credo
formulated in around 1873 by a great Dutch
writer, Multatuli. 'Seek - through very diligent
work, you experts in art! - to empower content.
T h e n form will be delivered to you.'

Bertin, J. 1967. Sémiologie graphique, Paris: Mouton.


Dreyfuss, H. 1972. Symbol source book, New York:
McGraw-Hill
Norman, D. 1988 The psychology of everyday things, New
York: Basic Books.

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