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Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion Joint

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someshwar ganti
Posted : Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject : Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion Joint
SEFI Regulars
Hello Everybody,

Joined : 06 Feb 2010 I am having a large building of size 140 x 140 m with 14 floors , and
Posts : 23

spacing of columns is 11.6 m in both directions

all floors are having flat slabs,

I have to design this building WITHOUT expansion joint

can anybody help in this

thanks in advance
somesh

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bijay sarkar
Posted : Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:42 pm Post subject :
SEFI Stars
Dear Er Ganti,

Joined : 14 Dec 2009 i think the constraints in providing an expansion joint in such a structure may be explained for better
Posts : 217
understanding.

thanking you

regards,

bijay sarkar

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someshwar ganti
Posted : Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:14 pm Post subject :
SEFI Regulars
to put it plain and simple ,
the architecture is already approved and perhaps without consultation with the structural engineers
Joined : 06 Feb 2010 involved
Posts : 23

bijay sarkar wrote:

Dear Er Ganti ,

i think the constraints in providing an expansion joint in such a structure may be explained for better
understanding.

thanking you

regards,

bijay sarkar

<Session>

<Session>

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7981 21/04/2012 12:05:17

www.sefindia.org :: View topic - Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion Joint Page 2

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sakumar 79 Posted : Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:05 am Post subject :

SEFI Stars
1. I think you can provide the expansion joint without affecting the architecture too much unless the
building is too irregular. Even then, it is our duty to advise the client to provide the expansion joint by
Joined : 18 Apr 2008 changing the geometry if needed . Otherwise, later on, the building will experience problems and only
Posts : 262 the engineers will be blamed...

2. You can model temperature effects in the structure and design for stresses induced by it ... However,
even in this case, it should be noted that other components like Brick walls, etc . will not have the
necessary mechanisms for allowing thermal stresses and there will be cracks in the brick walls...

3. In such large building, are you not considering earthquake forces? In this case, the expansion joint
will have to be designed with necessary gap to take into account the possibility of pounding effect
between the two blocks. And each block should have shear walls in perpendicular direction, provided
roughly symmetrically so that earthquake loads are taken care of by them. Flat slabs are ineffective/
inefficient in lateral loads.

Hence, ideally it would be best if you can convince the owner and architect to reconsider the project
with the necessary multiple expansion joints .

Arun

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vikram .jeet Posted : Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject : Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion
E -Conference Moderator Joint
Provision of expansion joints to relieve the structure of thermal stresses
Joined : 26 Jan 2003 due to temp variations is a structural requirement and limit of 45m prescribed
Posts : 1887
by the IS 456 for RCC structures may be adhered . Otherwise structure components
need to be designed for the additional stresses due to thermal variations.

Kindly take cognizance of some earlier sefi postings during April 2010 on topic
Expansion Joints and posting of Sh KN Seth is reproduced herein below.

regards

vikramjeet

Dear Engineers

Based on the guidelines provided in Variyani Sir's book H/B of LS Design of RCC Structure.
I have designed several RCC structures with Length of building upto 70m without Exp. Jt.

I have guided a dissertation to study the critical length for which temp stress will be critical. The
observation is : Earlier days design was mainly for vertical loads for low rise buildings. Now that even
single storey buildings are also with space frame model, The column/bm moment induced due to temp
strains is not critical even upto 70m or higher. Hence expansion joint criteria can be relaxed.

The designer should see that architectural facade should be discontious to avoid unsightly cracking in

For very long buildings without expansion joints, refer guidelines by Fintel 's H/B of Concrete Strcutres.

K. N. Sheth
--

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rowingengineer
Posted : Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject :
SEFI Member
While I believe the design will be better with control/ expansion joints, it may be possible to
design without these joints in the slab. The cost will be higher and you will need to spend
Joined : 04 Aug 2009 some time getting specialised help . <xml ><o></ o>
Posts : 6
Location : Australia
Thinking outside the box:<o></o>
Maybe a slab posttensioned, with construction joints at 30m in each direction lapping the
ducts at each joint or similar would work. However there would need to be a few details
attended too.<o></ o>
<o> </o>
1. Shrinkage- I would use an expanding concrete mix, and limit the restraining elements to
a minimum and try to place as best as possible to reduce forces with slip joints to any walls
bar the core . All resisting elements would need to be near the C of G, this would also mean
that all load bearing element for lateral load should be here too . <o></o>

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7981 21/04/2012 12:05:17

www.sefindia.org :: View topic - Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion Joint Page 3

2. Thermal- I would again try to remove as many restraining elements as possible, and also
provide slip joints to any walls bar the core. You would also need to insulate the slab as much
as possible from outside thermal changes, and ensure that the buildings aircon is on all the
time.<o></ o>
3. Cracking, expect cracking to occur and provide extra reinforcement to control, this is in
both walls , slabs and cores. <o></ o>
4. Column moments to ensure columns are able to be flexible I would use large amounts of
steel and minimise cross-section.<o></ o>
5. The ground floor to 1’st would need special details. <o></o>
6. The roof would have to be steel not concrete and insulated to reduce movement. <o></
o>
7. Spend lots of time on all details and ensure all tiles, coverings and walls have the ability
to move with the structure. <o></ o>
8. Get help from experts in the game. <o></o>
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someshwar ganti Posted : Sat Jul 24, 2010 3 :18 pm Post subject :
SEFI Regulars
Hi

Joined : 06 Feb 2010 I would like to now whether there is any expansion joint free building construction technology available,
Posts : 23 if so please give me literature on that.

Thanks in advance

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vijaya _vittal Posted : Sat Jul 24, 2010 6 :22 pm Post subject : Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion Joint
Wise Person
It is always better to follow the standard practice. Hence the expansion joints are required one in each
direction ie. making blocks of 70x70 m . Designing the building without expansion joint only therotical.
Joined : 26 Jan 2003 In the end the building have cracks by any other reasons then the blame is on the structural engineer
Posts : 69
for not providing the e.j.

Regards.
H.N.Vijaya Vittal
--- On Fri, 7/23/10, someshwar ganti <forum@ sefindia.org > wrote:
Quote:

From: someshwar ganti < forum@sefindia.org>

Subject: [SEFI] Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion Joint
To: general @sefindia.org
Date: Friday , July 23 , 2010, 7:46 PM

Hello Everybody,

I am having a large building of size 140 x 140 m with 14 floors, and

spacing of columns is 11.6 m in both directions

all floors are having flat slabs ,

I have to design this building WITHOUT expansion joint

can anybody help in this

thanks in advance
somesh

Posted via Email

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rahul. leslie Posted : Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject :
SEFI Stars
How exactly is the "additional stresses due to thermal variations" estimated for desgn?

Rahul Leslie

Joined : 01 Apr 2008

Posts : 300
Location : Trivandrum

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http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7981 21/04/2012 12:05:17

www.sefindia.org :: View topic - Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion Joint Page 4

knsheth 123 Posted : Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:35 pm Post subject : Design a Large Building WITHOUT expansion
Wise Person Joint
Dear Engineers,

Joined : 26 Jan 2003

Posts : 73
Pl refer the concept from Shri Variyani Sir's H/B. Provision of additional joint moments induced due to
temp. stresses are mainly at the First Floor Level.

For an 11 storey building with Flat slabs you might have Shear walls as primary load resisting members.
If you can use Beam Supported Slabs for the First Floor Level only, this will assist distributing addl.
moments induced in columns. And the load combination with Temp. Loads will not be the governing
load combination.

The building w/o exp. jt will be more EQ . resistant one.

You need to care for the facade elements if they are continuous. Ref. may be made to the H/B of Conc.
Engg. by Mark Fintel. You will find few more examples of Long Buildings w/o exp. joints.

Till now we have come across 5 storey building 80m length without exp. joint. The Facade should be
discontinuous.

I recall the discussion we had few years back in a school conducted by IIT-K at A'bad. It was discussed
that instead of having Brides with simple Supports Rigidly connected Brides must be investigated , They
will be more EQ resistant.

K. N. Sheth

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