Doreen Okeh

Period 2

Transcribed Interview #5

D.O.: Hello again, Dr. So, firstly, thank you so much for agreeing to speak with me. I know not
everyone's Friday afternoon is the most available but thank you so much for setting apart a piece
of your day to be able to speak with me today. Alright, so I have some questions prepared for
today's interview. And my first question is, could you please elaborate on the major differences
in treating black individuals in comparison to any other racial group?

L.E.N.: Oh, my. There's a level of expectation when you are a Black or African American
depending on how you identify .But the level of expectation is that there will be a level of
affinity with them that they feel they would not get from other people. They may be the
difference in how they see you because your level of degree and the fact that they're there for a
certain type of therapy because psychology in itself as the source we've been considered is
through white people. And that stuff that black people do when they're coming to see you has to
deal There's some questions around determining if youre with the culture, and do you really get
it and if you have a doctorate degree and what not and can really connect with me on a third
level, because part of identifying with certain groups and maintaining a certain resource that
other people may not have had the same access to challenge that means that there can be a level
of disconnect. So you have the unspoken responsibility of recognizing the duality and who you
are as well as the value you bring to the room, and that impact may have on the client. And then
as the therapist: are you more likely to be pulled towards working with this client simply because
they are black, and you feel that you can support them in a way? Honestly sometimes that's true,
especially if they're coming in there about stuff related to cultural issues. So yeah, there's a big
difference in working with a black and brown client, at least on my part, as someone who
identifies as black and working with other groups just because there are pieces of our identity of
our culture of our shared collective unconscious and our shared history that other people simply
don't have access to nature of not being black.

D.O.: And we think it's very interesting as well how you perceive these differences and how also
how you take into consideration the patient, how they feel, their preferences and what they
choose to be titled as in such such and such like that. I think it's interesting. So my next question
is, what efforts do you believe can be done to reduce the gap between religious leaders and
mental professionals in deciding the proper care for a patient?
L.E.N.: Open communication and dialogue. So that formal education and training, often misses
opportunities for people to really connect so there has to be a chance, where a lot of that structure
is taken away. And by structure I mean oh we're going to sit in the classroom in psychology and
learn about religion and its impact on the field of psychology or oh I learned that in seminary or
working towards my masters or doctorate in divinity, but to learn about the impact of the field of
psychology and how people perceive or understand religion and spirituality. I feel like there's a
better opportunity for people to actually just sit in a room together as experts within their field,
and have a dialogue about what's working and what they feel they're being challenged with what
areas they require growth. So a few of my close friends are actually ministers, one is working on
his doctorate of divinity.You know them already have their masters, or they went through
seminary, or just went through the call from their own home churches and you know just the
elbows a position, and our conversations usually happen when we get around, and share with
each other about some of the hurt that comes with being part of the black church. I can't really
speak about other things, even though I went to a Catholic school which is a whole separate
issue. But some of the hurt with black churchesfrom religion has to be above all persecute me, a
member of the LGBT community, but I'm also black, or if I have a disability or, I'm not married
and have children or if I'm getting a divorce, but I'm also black. So when religion was something
that was initially used in this country because Christianity did exist beyond, you know, gender
fluidity or the Transatlantic slave trade, but in this country it was the gate and oppressed, and
then to reclaim that and, as most black churches did use that as a means of healing and to make it
through and make it over. And then for people of color who actually had that experience of that
oppression use it to then oppress other marginalized groups and become fear, shame, guilt and
pain and embarrassment around religion that often is no conversations because they get shut
down. You don't have the same freedom and ability to really talk about a process that church hurt
or that chain that comes with feeling deeply religious or being a Christian or however they
identify with under the route of religion and being able to really break down with religious
leaders or shall we say the mothers of the church you know the older women in the church, the
deacons and feeling like they're really heard everything Oh well, you know, I can love the sinner,
but not the same way well that's limiting to and honestly I feel is bullshit. So when people find
that balance and that harmony between recognizing that religion has an issue, there has to be a
continued dialogue about it. There has been room for really tearing apart, down to the basic
level, the issues of struggles regarding religious identity. And then we can use the rest of it as a
means of facilitating growth and clean compromising.

D.O.: Excuse me for interrupting, I just had a follow up question. And this reproach it you
mentioned about people feeling chatter sized or judged or limited at the church and feeling as if
it's a place of criticism, do you believe that it can discourage young people from joining the
church or involving their, their future families or themselves in the church?
L.E.N.: Part of what I do with my friends who the past I've known this person for maybe 15
years. So this was long before he was even close to the ministry and I was even close to thinking
about the fact. We were just joking about how we grew up in the church but as adults we have
chosen not to go. And that's honestly the same conversation that I can say is this is the truth for
most of my friends, we either were those that went to every Sunday church every meeting Bible
study were in church groups and organizations and now it's more like, all right, well then we all
may go during the big three- you know Mother's Day, Christmas and New Year. Or should I say,
and then the rest of us don’t enjoy going to church. I mean, no saying it against people who do,
but it's just not my thing anymore. But a lot of that is there more antiquated or traditional quote
unquote thing church and religious, and they don't fit in line with the growth and expectation.
Although that feels weird to say but I guess younger generations are more prone to work toward,
and not everybody in the age gap that I'm in. We are more likely to push for inclusive city and
diversity, and for people to be accountable for their actions, and part of those actions is dealing
with that, church or not.

D.O.: Okay, thank you so much that that answered my question. So, I have another question and
it's talking about other factors of African Americans and their history and how they can feed into
mental health. So the African American community is currently in the midst of many demanding
issues such as the continuous battle against police brutality and the Black Lives Matter
movement. So do you believe that these issues can take away from the needed attention and
discussion regarding mental health?

L.E.N.: Absolutely. Now I think if anything there should be a bridge of the two so you can talk
about police brutality and the need for the Black Lives movement without talking about post
traumatic stress disorder that people of color often feel by nature of their blackness in this
country. And, like I was saying I think I said earlier, something about the collective unconscious,
of how black people have a shared experience there, color, and their identity. And a lot of that is
needed how we see traditional system education system and literally any other type of system
that has a direct impact on who we are as people. So now I don't think it takes away, but I think
people often miss opportunities where they shouldn't. There's a book that I love it. My favorite
book is by Dr. Joy DeGruy, Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome. And it really talks about the
interconnectedness of what it means to be a black person in this country and dealing with that
have been historically oppressive like the judicial system. And then how people work so hard to
tease apart, the psychology of it.The actual structure of what it is just so that they can say that,
you know, they really don't have an impact I don't understand why people are still complaining
or claiming that Black Lives Matter and opposite, but now we should be bridging the gap
between the two. I would think that people may feel that it's a lot to deal with all that, and they
try to categorize where we look at the psychological and long term or short term impact that
being in hearing about violence and brutality has on black minds and black black black psyche,
and how that impacts the need for issues like the Black Lives Matter movement.

D.O.: So, finally, what do you believe is the most important factor for mental health
professionals such as yourself to consider why treating African American patients?

L.E.N.: Trauma and that hurt that may bring itself into the room, whether they speak about it or
not, whether that's the reason they came into therapy or not. And even though that may not be
something that directly needs to come up, we should be aware of it and be keeping it in the back
of your mind on some of the other things that we talked about, I would say for black and brown
people, it okay to feel a level of affinity for your black and brown patients that you may not have
for your white patients by nature of being black just because you likely know what it took for
them to come in. The second point is also don't assume too much. So just be mindful of those
people they're still a person and they're an individual

D.O.: Those are all my questions prepared for you, Dr. Nelson. Thank you so much for helping
me with my research and providing all this knowledge

L.E.N.: Anytime, Doreen. Good luck with your research.

Reflection-I conducted an interview with a mental health professional over the phone. Her name
is Dr. Leila Ellis-Nelson and she is a certified psychologist of Changing Perspectives stationed in
Chicago, Illinois. She provided information about the religious aspect of mental illness, and
elaborated on why religious leaders and mental health professionals must work together to help
the public. Dr. Ellis-Nelson also elaborated on why some individuals stray from the church as
they grow, since feelings of resentment may arise because of the friction between mental illness
acceptance and the clergy. She states the need for refinement within the clergy and their
acceptance of others.