Rwanda President Paul spoke to Pamella Sittoni on his

term as Chairman of the African Union, his plans as

Chairman of The East African Community and the pending
work in Rwanda.

Question: A lot has happened in Africa since you became

Chair of the African Union last year. What are you most
proud? Do you have any regrets as you prepare to hand
over the chairmanship?
Answer: To begin with I think a lot has been happening across
our continent even before I became the Chair of the African
Union, and therefore when I became Chair, some work was
easier because I was building on some of the things that were
already decided by the African leaders. For example, when it
came to the reforms that we were to carry out. It came from the
leaders when they were meeting here is 2016. I was tasked
and there was the team that supported me in this effort
— women and men drawn from different backgrounds across
our continent with credentials, Panafricanism and other
capabilities. We analysed to find out which areas needed
reforming and improvement, and we made these
suggestions. So, we've made progress in carrying out reforms,
and then building on that process to do other things that we
thought, again with the African leaders, were important to have.
For example the continental free trade area, which is really a
dream for many years. People integration, for not only countries
and people and markets especially, to be able to trade with
each other to be able to move freely across our continent.
The achievement of the continental free trade area has been
significant. Many African leaders have signed up to. Forty-nine
countries have signed up. That is followed by ratification. To put
it into effect requires 22 countries to ratify. So far we are at 18
or 19 countries, and we are hoping that the three or four
countries might have signed by the time we meet over the
weekend. But in any case even for those who have not ratified,
it isn’t because they don’t want to. They have already
shown their commitment in signing. Ratification is a process
they have to go through depending on their constitutions and
other obligations.
We have also created a unified air transport market across
Africa — opened the skies for airlines to operate from
country to country across our continent.
These are details of things that have happened, but what is
even more important for me, and I guess other people notice, is
that there is a desire by the Africans to make quick progress in
many things that we have not been able to achieve in the past
in the area of integration. To create a strong continent
working together with one voice, whether it is by regional
economic communities or all of them coming together, or two or
three and so on, but the desire is to work together and resolve
these matters that have held us back for a long time.
Question: Here in East Africa, countries have
problems implementing regional protocols. How will
they implement continental protocols?
Answer: Problems are part of all these processes. Even when
you just talk about 55 countries across our continent, you
already talking about problems because we want to create a
united continent but uniting 55 countries of all kinds of different
backgrounds, much as everyone agrees, there is a central
commonality of being Africans and many similarities in
the challenges we face, and probably similar solutions can
apply, we know there are problems. Because there are those
challenges it should not discourage us or hold us back because
there are no other ways that you are going to apply where you
will not meet challenges.
You try to advance on as much as you can and there are these
problems you talk about, but you still want to push against them
and see what progress you make. At the same time as you are
doing that you are also trying to bring the others together.
Question: What did you have to do personally to convince
the rest of the African leaders to rally behind you on this
free trade area?
Answer: Apart from applying all my personal efforts — and we
had a very good team that we were working with — matters of
trade and the African Continental Free Trade Area were the
responsibility of the President of Niger, President (Mahamadou
Issoufou). He was the champion. He did a lot. I have
been lucky in the sense that I have built on other people's
efforts so combined we find we are making very good progress.
I built on what President Issoufou was already doing but both of
us succeeded because what we were trying to do found
commitment on the part of African leaders and countries. They
already wanted it. They were asking for it. That that is what
has made it easy.
Question: You have said several times that the AU
must be seen to benefit the African people. How will
the free trade area benefit the low of the lowest in Africa?
Answer: The continental free trade area allows seamless
interactions and transactions. Ofcourse bigger companies will
benefit more, but it really starts with these small companies,
which represent the majority of our people on the ground. Every
day these ordinary people try to cross borders to trade with
each other. It is very interesting because I have this
background and I have seen with my own eyes how
these Africans are struggling to cross borders, and they are
fighting the police, they fight the Immigration people but they
still find ways. They really beat them to it. So you can imagine
having this situation where the officials, these institutions of
government are the ones standing in the way of ordinary
people who want to do business. You know even countries may
quarrel among themselves, some even have gone to war and
fought, but the ordinary people, first of all they don’t even
understand why there are these quarrels. They don’t care.
They try to survive. It is happening on either side, of whichever
border you may look at. So this free trade area in a way
answers to that problem for it touches the ordinary people who
are trying to make ends meet through businesses, small
business.
It creates a big market for even bigger companies to operate.
There's more benefit for the African continent if we are doing
business together than when we're trying to go it alone.
The numbers show what we would gain if there was this
integration, if there was this working together, how much we
would gain and how much we are losing by not doing that.
In fact you deal with the rest of the world on better terms and it
is more beneficial than when they deal with one differently from
the other.

Question: The other two initiatives, the open skies

initiative and the African passport — the whole idea of
having a visa free Africa — are supposed to be supporting
the free trade area. How have these gone?
Answer: I think there is progress. If you look at the East African
region, we have already made some progress using an identity
card to travel instead of being required to carry a passport or
have visas. These have been waived progressively, which is a
good thing. In West Africa ECOWAS that has more or less
been happening. Then in other regions as well. There is no way
we are going to have the real integration unless we allow
freedom of movement of people, goods, services. So there is
good progress on that. There is more to do. It takes time for the
very reasons you said. Sometimes you cannot even explain
because in the challenges we face, we are also able to see the
opportunities imbedded there that we are actually missing a lot
from. You wonder why people cannot move swiftly, faster than
we are, and say, in pursuit of those benefits, why don’t we do
what we are supposed to do? But we are all human beings, we
have these weaknesses. Some of the things we can’t explain,
really.
Question: Do you have a vision the AU as strong as the
European Union, for example?
Answer: It is possible. The European Union is just 27 or 28
countries, the African continent has 55, so it is going to be more
difficult to bring 55 together than than 27 or 28 countries, but
there are many forms in which we can do it. For example if you
took these regional communities, the closer they come
together, the easier it becomes to draw them together, and
therefore bring the whole continent together in the end. So it is
taking it step by step, as practically possible.
Question: Another issue you have always advocated is
that the AU must have some self-financing mechanism.
But some countries are reluctant to make a contribution
from the imports levy you proposed. What is the way
forward?

Answer: the way forward is to begin with the principle itself. I

don’t think we have seen many arguing against that self-
financing principle. What people may have an argument about
is the way to do it. But I have reminded people that we have
had many suggestions from different efforts. The question this
time around has been that we can’t keep shelving everything,
unless we are not serious about dealing with these problems.
We have to find a way of making progress. This is the formula
can we apply. It as a principle to achieve the end result — self-
financing, which means independence, which means getting rid
of these people who finance everything for us and then come
up with a whole list of demands that really go counter to the
very principles we stand for or believe in.
I can say everybody agrees with the principle that we should be
self-financing or making huge contributions ourselves so that it
is ours. These different people who give us all kinds of things,
the Chinese give us a building as the AU, the Germans gave us
another one next to it in Addis, at the headquarters, then others
say we can do this for you, and we say “thank you”, then after
that everyone comes with their demands. We are better than
this. Africans we should be better than this. There is what you
give, there is what you take, it’s a balanced principle, but you
cannot be there just surrendering everything and you have
nothing.

When you took the chairmanship, the theme of the AU was

‘fighting corruption together’. Do you think Africa has
made any progress in the last one year? What can African
countries learn from Rwanda?
I would not be correct to say that you cannot find corruption in
Rwanda and there is no situation which is corruption-free,
because corruption is a complicated animal. But you can
reduce it. You can create an environment where corruption is
not practiced with impunity, if anybody is corrupt and brings it
into the public service, you have to create an understanding
that this person will be held responsible. That is extremely
important.
That is what we have tried to do. We have created an
environment that tells us you are not free to get involved in
corruption, and if you are caught — and you should be caught
— then, accountability. That mindset is important and what
follows is the practice of holding people accountable. Everyday
we are holding people accountable and, it doesn’t matter at
what level. That is also very important, because you should not
just go for ordinary people, who in the end what they are paying
goes up to some extent.
At the continental level, former president of South Africa Thabo
Mbeki led a process to find out what is going on in this area,
what Africa is losing in these illicit activities. It was huge,
amounting to tens of billions of dollars.
The other thing is that corruption will always benefit the minority
while the majority absorb the cost. We have to be on the side of
the majority, of our people, so that they shouldn’t be absorbing
this huge cost of corruption. That is why we have put the rule of
law, accountability measures and institutions. But sometimes
some of these institutions are the ones practicing it. It is a
vicious circle, it is not easy and it is not uniquely African, it is
global but there is more tolerance in Africa and people get
away with it without accountability. This is the struggle we have
decided to undertake.
You won’t find places where people praise corruption.
Everyone hates it, and says they are going to fight. But, it is a
good story that everyone says they are going to fight it. So you
take people on that and say, “if you agree, what do we do?
Let’s do it.” So across Africa the same story is being told, and it
is enlisting more people than ever before. People are saying we
must fight corruption because it kills businesses, or slows down
investments and the majority again bears the burden.
At the AU President Buhari of Nigeria was entrusted with the
responsibility to lead that process, and he has been trying to do
that. Another time when he was president he fought corruption.
He is a man of integrity. He championed that, like President
Issoufou championed the ACFTA. These issues being
championed tell the story of where Africa wants to go.

Do you think the Africa Peer Review Mechanism would

have helped Africa to fight corruption if it had received the
support of all the leaders?
Yes, the peer review mechanism needed and still needs
reinforcing, because there is sharing best practice, which is a
good thing. There no question about it. The peer review
mechanism is a good thing that still needs to be reinforced.

You have talked about corruption and how it affects

investments. How has Africa fared in attracting
investments?
Africa hasn’t got sufficient investment money flowing to the
continent, we should be having much more than we are getting.
There’s a couple of things here, some of it is reality. Sometimes
the investors will say there are issues of conflict, the corruption
we are talking about, or governance generally not being
conducive. In some cases, that is true. In other areas it is
exaggerated, or there are double standards. People just pick
and choose for convenience; they want to go where they can
put in a lot of money, make a killing and disappear. In other
cases, the investors benefit from corruption. They exploit the
weaknesses in the situation, pay a few people, make a kill and
go. Then they will create a wrong perception.
So it is a mixed story. It also serves a good purpose if we deny
these people excuses, like governance and insecurity,
sometimes they use these things as pretext. We have to do
some of the things ourselves as African to eliminate these
excuses. We also have to do the right things in terms of
governance, create a conducive environment for investments
and direct investments where they are going to have impact on
the people’s lives, not just to invest where there is
oil. Sometimes, people in Africa just read about what they have
like minerals in the papers but they don’t see any benefit at all.
So we have to put in place good governance that will enable
the continent to benefit from investments.
Question: Countries are taking more of debt than
investments, and it is becoming a big problem for many
African countries. What is your view on Africa and the debt
question?
There is nothing wrong with taking debt, it is part of the whole
equation. But like everything else, it must be debt you can
accommodate. Don’t take too much debt and then you end up
wasting the money that came through debt. Some of it is just
accumulation of debt and you and you don’t see what came
from that borrowing. But if you are borrowing for productive
purposes, where you gain and you are also able to make the
payments, then it is a good thing. But you can’t just keep on
borrowing. In the end you choke on death and it really kills you.
Otherwise for me there is no problem with debt, but the
problem is too much debt that in the end impoverishes you.
You can’t just borrow to pay back. You borrow to remain with
something and also be able to pay back.

Linked to that is the whole China question. We have seen

some reports, some are exaggerated but some true of
China about to auction some countries. What do you think
about China’s relationship with Africa?
I am not an advocate of China, but I think people don’t need to
attribute so many negatives to China that it doesn’t deserve.
Now, if I keep borrowing from you, and you keep giving money,
you know why you’re giving me the money. But how do I blame
you and not the one taking the money? Why do you I keep
borrowing from you if in the end I am going to collapse under
the weight of this debt? Is it really a Chinese problem? or it also
my problem that I keep taking money from the Chinese and in
the end I am drowned in the debt? I think people need to look
at it carefully. Some mistakes have been made, but I don’t think
this debt problem should be blamed on the Chinese. Then
there’s the other side, which is exaggerated. The main
accusers of China are on another side. They say China gives
money to Africa without asking questions, and so on. But that
means the ones accusing China don’t realise that China is very
present in Africa because the Chinese are meeting needs that
the others are not. What are they doing? If they were busy
trying to invest in infrastructure, the story of Chinese
overwhelming the continent with debt should not arise. They
say we are going to give you aid, but you are not like us, you
are not doing this, you are not following our rules and in the end
they give you so little. But when somebody else comes and
asks you what you want. If you want a bridge or a power plant
they give it to you. You can see China is talking of something of
importance to Africa like power plant and there is no way of
getting. These guys are not giving me a power plant of 200
megawatts through aid, they are not even giving me through
investments, but the Chinese comes and say I will give you
support to build a power plant. That is a big deal to any African
country. The problem is when we enter a bad deal.
Question: There has been talk that the African Union still
needs you, and there have been suggestions that you
should stay on in a special role. Is it something you have
been thinking about, are you likely to stay on?
Answer: No one has raised it with, me and it is not something I
am thinking about. But there are things that are happening that
will have me stay on in some role. One, the reform process still
goes on independently. Two, we have something called Troika,
where the incoming chair, the outgoing chair, who is me and
the previous Alpha Conte, we are supposed to be working
together. The outgoing chair must be supportive the incoming
one.

Question: You have just taken over the chairmanship of

the East African Community. What are your plans for the
region?
Answer: The plans are already there, so I am not creating
anything new. The EAC exists and we want to strengthen it.
My job is to work with other leaders. The last time we met in
Arusha there was emphasis that we really need to take the
ideals of the EAC to the people. They need to buy in, they need
to understand it and own it, so that it is not just leaders talking
about it. Sometimes the East Africans don’t understand some
things we talk about because they don’t experience it. EAC is
about the feelings and experiences people get when they travel
to other countries. It can’t just be on paper but practice. People
want to do business, they have families in all these countries
and if you stand in their way, it defeats the purpose.

Question: You are taking over at a time when the issue of

Non-tariff-barriers is a frustration for the business
community; the Economic Partnership Agreement with the
European Union is still pending. Do you have any
deliberate plans to address these issues and rest them
within your tenure?
Yes, we need to press hard. This is a matter that took a lot of
time when we met in Arusha. We need to find a way around it
where everybody is comfortable. You can’t be complaining
about something and then you don’t want to discuss it. Then
the problem is something else. It calls for engagement at
different level, government, business and citizens, we need to
have conversations. I don’t think there is any problem that we
can’t address. The approach is important and if you have a
problem, you have to discuss it.

Question: The last EAC summit had a rich agenda, but the
communique did not give the impression that you had
resolved them. What did you agree on issues like the
plastics ban and the importation of textile?
Answer: We got a sense of direction on many of them and how
to address them. People were given tasks to do a number of
things, either to investigate, put the information together and
when we have the next sitting we will deal with them. For
instance there is a study going on about plastics and the
implications of doing some things and not others.
Question: Sometimes it is about optics and the
relationship between leaders and countries. Do you think
your chairmanship will be affected by the relationship
between Rwanda and Burundi or Uganda?
Answer: Well, I don’t think so. If that is to be said of bad
relations between Uganda and Rwanda, how then was it
affecting Uganda’s chairmanship? You could start from there. If
Uganda’s chairmanship was not being affected, then my
chairmanship will not be affected. But, seriously, whatever not-
so-good relations between countries of the East African
Community, there have been and there should continue to be
efforts, to try and find out how to resolve whatever it is, so that
this stops being in the way of good progress of the East African
Community. I cannot give you a formula but, in my mind, even
before I became the chair, and even more so that I am, it’s on
my mind — and I hope it’s also on the minds of other leaders —
that, whatever it is, it is not necessary and it is not good for us.
We need to figure out how we can resolve those issues. And at
the same time not allowing them to stand in the way of the
progress we should be making as East Africans. Surely there
has to be a way of dealing with that. I’m sure the other leaders
are thinking about. I’m thinking about it for sure. We’re better
than this. I think we can do better.
Do you think things are getting worse or improving
between Uganda and Rwanda? I thought the two countries’
history would prevent such tensions?
Yes, there is a good foundation from which we should be
building a very good relationship. There is no question about it.
Therefore, it is very intriguing, to find that, even with that history
and a good foundation we have something like this going on.
And it goes on everyday, even as we speak. It is hard to just
put it in one word, or even a few words. All I can say is that it’s
a matter that can be resolved. That must be resolved. Because
the alternative is not something that we should even be thinking
about, or entertaining, that we can stand in the way of our own
progress or the progress of all East Africans. Because we have
made so many pronunciations, we’ve made statements. When
it comes to optics, to the microphones, we are saying the best
things and the right things. But we should make an effort to do
those things, not just say them. It doesn’t hurt anyone to keep
on trying. What hurts is keeping quiet. And of course things are
not improving because of that. Because we’re not doing much.
We have had discussions over this for two years, we can
resolve them whether it is egos or just wishing that things
should be bad.
Would you say the same of Burundi?
The same thing. Actually for Burundi, the situation is simpler
and clearer. For example, when Burundi has publicly stated
that Rwanda is its only problem. People make their own
judgment. Let’s imagine that Rwanda does not exist, is true
Burundi would not be having problems? So many times, there
are people charged with responsibilities for Burundi, President
Mkapa as facilitator, and President Museveni as the mediator,
and then other East Africans have not come up with much
success to help Burundi solve their problems. They could have
said that they have found out that Burundi does not have any
problems and that problem comes from outside.

….But President Nkurunziza said as much in his letter?

Yes, that Nkurunziza, but for me I am trying to put the fact out
there, and not defending Rwanda. I will not refer to what
Nkurunziza has said, but those in charge of solving the Burundi
problems have not said that the problem is Rwanda. If there are
any problems coming from Rwanda, then they are not the main
problem and those ones can also be solved separately.

Question: Did you recluse yourself from taking over from

President Museveni as the mediator of the intra-Burundi
talks?
Answer: Yes, it is still President Museveni doing it. For that
matter I said the problems should remain in the hands where it
has been. I didn’t want this Burundi issue to stand in the way of
anything, not even in the way of trying to resolve the problems
of Burundi. Because, being conscious of what Burundi is using
as pretext, then I don’t have to play in the hands of those using
the pretext. Let the people handling it continue handling it
because East African matters a lot more than Burundi’s
problem.
Question: How is Rwanda’s relationship with South Africa
now? Rwandans are still unable to get visas to go to South
Africa.
Answer: With South Africa generally, the relationship is good
at country level. When it comes to individual government
officers, then you might find things here and there. The
president of South Africa is managing different opinions, but as
far as Rwanda is concerned, there is no divided opinions on
how we should relate to South Africa. Whatever we are asked
to clarify, we do so publicly, openly and we also provide
evidence. We respect the opinions of some South Africans
even if we don’t agree with them. It is even said in a manner
that either some of these people making these statement would
prefer dealing with the Rwandese living in South Africa than
with the government of Rwanda.
Question: Is there a direct link between a Rwandan group
in South Africa, the relations with Uganda, the relations
with DRC. Do you see a web of conspiracy?
With DR Congo we have no problem. But between South
Africa and ourselves, there are these matters that go around in
the media. Let me say this. Some of the things that are said to
be believed by Uganda about us, are coming from these
individuals living in South Africa. Even logically, you try to
understand it these individuals in South Africa plotting all kinds
of things against us are the ones giving information to Uganda
in a way to solicit support from Uganda against us. Whether
accurate or not, the information is designed to create that
problem from which they benefit. If Uganda believes in some of
these things, it is because they have made a choice to believe
them. We have raised these matters with Uganda, that when
they are given information, it is because those people want to
buy Uganda’s support.
Question: Since you have many regional and continental
issues to deal with, here in Rwanda, what keeps you
awake?
Answer: I usually have no problem with my sleep. I am only
struggling to find time to sleep because the burden of work, but
I try to find good sleep and I get it. What keeps me awake is the
whole history of the struggle for a purpose, a country we can
build and advance. Out of the struggle, the fight and struggling,
we have left that behind us. What keeps me awake is: How do
we develop? how do we build our country? With the kind of
ambitions we have to develop as fast as possible, takes a lot a
lot of thinking and doing.
Question: How many hours do you sleep in night? Your
officers stay awake because they expect a call anytime of
the night.
On average I make it six, sometimes I make five and, I rarely,
but sometimes try to make it eight. It is true that sometimes I
make calls when I wake up even in the middle of the night,
depending on the urgency of the matter. We have targets, like
personally about how much time I can find some rest. I have
also found that flexibility is the only way, if I cannot make it five,
I can do with four. Our situation is still so demanding, it is unlike
in other countries where systems are working and you can
relax. Where we came from it was purely fire-fighting, when
something is happening you put on your boots and you rush
there. You know if you don’t get involved, things will go very
wrong. You have to juggle these. Personally I’m struggling to
find family time and sometimes I find it difficult to divide myself
within the 24 hours, I wish a day had 36 hours.
Question: Do you think you could groom somebody to
assist?
Answer: It is not I don’t want to be assisted, but there are
realities of the matter. Before I talk about the difference
between Rwanda and some advanced economies and
democracies. I will say, even between Rwanda and Kenya.
Kenya’s history and the things that have happened, people
trained to do this, establishment in this or that area, we operate
differently. Imagine moving from total destruction just 25 years
ago. Kenya has a lot of resources to call upon – human,
institutional, financial — established over the years. Ours, there
was nothing. But even with that, we think even more from the
angle of how to sustain the continued growth. We are thinking
about institutions, resources and leadership structures whether
they are sufficiently in place. Some of the things we do here are
dictated by our history. It has been a journey of, from nothing to
something.
Question: It is now 25 years since the genocide against the
Tutsi. How would you sum up the journey?
Answer: It has been extremely challenging. But also extremely
rewarding. In the sense that I cannot see in the 25 years any
wasted effort. I can only say something has come out of it,
probably more than we ever expected so the word all the time
is that can we keep going. Every year brings new challenges
not only from within but also from the world that we are part of.
It changes so fast and we must cope with the changes.

Question: Does the history explain the political system you

have adopted here in Rwanda?
Answer: Yes. Of course. The question putting women at the
centre of politics and economy and the politics of consensus
trying to bring everybody in. Okay you have your own freedom
and thinking and action, but remember we need to build for a
common goal or else we fall apart like we did last time.

Question: But critics say this system stifles democracy,

stifles competition?
Answer: I don’t know what type of lives these critics live. They
have aright to their lives, and their systems and I have no
quarrel with that. I have to deal with my life; my situation.
Absolutely. And, by the way, we criticise ourselves in search of
solutions, and this is how we arrive to some of these things we
do here. If I waited to listen to outsiders, I don’t know what they
do and for what reason. I don’t want to be like them, maybe
they should be like me. I have no quarrel with coming under
scrutiny more than anyone. We are not insensitive to remarks
made about us. At the end of the day it is our thing. When we
start falling apart like we did, the same critics only gave a hand
in retrospection. It is our struggle even though we still have to
relate to others and listen. Pay for your mistakes and gain from
your efforts.
What do you do for leisure?
I play tennis, interact with people from Rwanda and outside. I
have walked into restaurants and hotels to have a meal. I have
fun like most people do.