GE Frame 6: Change the start engine

I am investing ideas for converting a GE Frame 6B unit from a Diesel Start

Engine to an electric motor start.

By Silvio Sosa on 4 November, 2008 - 8:05 am

I am investing ideas for converting a GE Frame 6B unit from a Diesel Start

Engine to an electric motor start. Any information would be helpful.

The installations consist in a diesel (Detroit V12, 600HP) start engine, for
the start up of the gas turbine GE MS 6B. Is needed to change it for an
electrical equipment.

By CSA on 5 November, 2008 - 12:12 am

Changing the starting means is possible, not inexpensive, but possible.

You should start your investigation by looking at the electrical supply
system at your site. This is often the limiting factor when considering such
a change. How much will the 'auxiliary' electrical supply system have to be
modified to support an electric motor of the size required to replace the
diesel starting means? Again, this is usually the most costly part of the
change as most sites with diesel starting means aren't built with the
electrical supply capability to support an electric starting means.

But, I would like to understand why you want to replace the diesel starting
means. Are you experiencing problems with the diesel or the diesel
governor?

This is not a simple change-out, it can be and has been done before. But,
again, the replacement of the diesel with an electric motor is possible, but
usually the most work involved is in readying the electrical supply system
to provide the power for the electric motor.

By HGouverneur on 19 January, 2009 - 2:56 pm

>Changing the starting means is possible, not inexpensive, but possible>

we are also looking for this because of multiple problems with start up
diesels at our frame 5 gas turbine. Is there a package available? What kw
size motor do we need?

By CSA on 19 January, 2009 - 7:14 pm

Most diesel starting problems can be traced to some very simple issues.
I've seen sites where adding a block heater to the diesel and keeping the
diesel warm when the unit was not operating was all that was required
to eliminate starting problems.

I've seen older units with worn fuel racks and deteriorated hydraulic
actuators be miraculously restored to trouble-free operation simply by
having a qualified diesel mechanic in to replace the fuel rack and
hydraulic actuators.

In some cases, cleaning or replacing injectors also greatly improved

starting--at the recommendation of a knowledgeable diesel mechanic
brought in to analyze the problems and make recommendations.
At a couple of sites, the position of the gravity dampers on the
Accessory Compartment doors allowed cold air (at -5 to -15 deg C
during winter) to be drawn in from the outside across the diesel when
the turbine was running. The diesel would reliably start the turbine
when the turbine was cold and the compartment vent fans weren't
running, but if the unit tripped while running the diesel wouldn't start
because it was very cold.

The gravity dampers had originally been installed in the wrong doors
and were relocated to the proper door (actually the doors were swapped
to different locations) to prevent the cold ambient air from being drawn
in "across" the diesel and starting reliability improved dramatically. A
block heater was eventually added and all the problems of almost many
years went away.

At another site, the shut-off solenoid was mis-adjusted and caused

starting reliability problems. A simple readjustment was all that was
required.

One of my favorite recollections was the site that continually

complained over several years about diesel starting problems. During a
site visit, when the diesel failed to start one of the operators went out
and reset the air box damper (the emergency diesel stop damper that is
held in place with a latching mechanism) to the open position. The unit
started on the next attempt. The plant supervisor turned to me and said,
"We have to reset that damper almost every time we try to start the unit.
That diesel is just totally unreliable!"

After a couple of minutes of discussion, it came out that every time the
diesel failed to start if someone went out and reset the damper it always
started on the next attempt. Sometimes the diesel would start and then
suddenly stop during acceleration. Resetting the air box damper would
result in the diesel starting on the next attempt. But the solution to the
starting, and even the nuisance shutdowns, always seemed to be
resetting the air box damper.

When I asked what happened if someone checked the damper prior to

starting the unit and reset it if necessary, I was told that they had never
tried that.

We removed the filters to access the air box and emergency shut-off
damper and found the bolts holding the damper's latch were loose. We
used some thread-locking liquid on the bolts and put the same latch
back in place. In some twenty (20!) start attempts in the next couple of
days the diesel never failed to start and never shut down unexpectedly.
And the air box emergency shut-off damper was never found to be
unlatched.

But the Customer still demanded a quote for an electric starting means,
and absolutely choked when they saw the cost, and never bought the
electric starting motor. And I think GE spent about six man-weeks of
effort, including sending people to site to assess the electrical system, to
produce a quote for a completely unnecessary quote for something they
never sold. (I know most won't cry for GE's loss!)

Oh, and let's not forget the torque converter. They do degrade over time
and sometimes it's not the diesel's inability to accelerate the unit, it's the
torque converter's inability to transmit the torque from the diesel. I've
seen people complain that the diesel is operating at rated speed but not
producing sufficient torque, but the fuel rack wasn't even at 60% of
rated stroke and the problem was traced to the torque converter.
Lastly, I've seen poor quality fuel and water in the fuel cause lots of
problems for diesels. In one case, simply checking the fuel filters
revealed water in the diesel fuel, and in another case one site had never
replaced the diesel fuel- or air filters in more than 20 years of operation!

Best to get someone out and go over the diesel from stem to stern and
refurbish it to like new condition. Pay attention to the details like block
temperature and Accessory Compartment cooling air flow patterns.

If you know the HP rating of the diesel on your unit, you can
approximate the KW requirements of a starting means. The biggest
problem with converting a starting means from diesel to electric is the
electrical power supply. Be aware that most electric motors are usually
"overloaded" during starting, so the electrical supply must be adequately
sized to provide the necessary current. Usually, a new transformer has to
be added to accommodate the power requirements of the electric starting
motor. That requires a power system study and relay coordination and
lots of new electrical system work. It really is a very involved
procedure, not just simply changing the physical device that provides
the torque to accelerate the unit during starting.
I would have to believe that a full refurbishment of the diesel would be
less than 25% of the cost of converting to an electric starting motor.

By Radhakrishnan on 20 January, 2009 - 12:27 am

Currently, the general trend on the starting means is to use electric

motor (or steam turbine, if steam is available) starter. Diesel is required
on turbines with black-start capability. We had the experience of
replacing diesel starters with electric motors (350 - 400 HP) on a few
MS5002A units. The package was supplied by GE, and it was helpful.
However, the logic changes required in the Mark IV Speedtronic system
had errors.

If your unit has the older "jaw-type", starting clutch, it will be

worthwhile to have them replaced with the newer type - self
synchronizing clutch. The "jaw-type" clutches, over period of time' are
likely to give problems.

In spite of all these hiccups, still it is worth the troubles you have to
take.
 To summarize, get GE involved. With out the support from GE, it will
be extremely difficult.

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