Chief Deputy Tim Ryle Deposition Transcript

1 CAUSE NO.
20-0009-C26
2
BRIAN JOHNS, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 Plaintiff, )
)
4 VS. )
) OF WILLIAMSON COUNTY, TEXAS
5 )
WILLIAMSON COUNTY, TEXAS, )
6 Defendant. ) 26TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
7
8 ORAL DEPOSITION OF CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE
FRIDAY, MAY 29, 2020
9
10 ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE,
11 produced as a witness at the instance of the Plaintiff,
12 and duly sworn, was taken on the 29th day of May, 2020,
13 from 10:09 a.m. to 1:35 p.m. before Nancy A. Lozano, a
14 Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of
15 Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the Offices of
16 Germer, Beaman & Brown, PLLC, 301 Congress Avenue, Suite
17 1700, Austin, Texas, pursuant to the Texas Rules of
18 Civil Procedure.
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1 APPEARANCES
2 FOR THE PLAINTIFF:
3 MR. RANDALL D. MOORE
Law Offices of Randall D. Moore, PLLC
4 3701 South University Drive
Fort Worth, Texas 76109
5 817.348.9339
rmoore@randallmoorelaw.com
6
7 AND
8
MR. ROBERT M. McCABE
9 Law Office of Robert McCabe, PLLC
203 South Austin Avenue
10 Georgetown, Texas 78626
512.240.5385
11 robert@defendingtexas.com
12
13 FOR THE DEFENDANT:
14 MR. RYAN C. KRONE
Germer, PLLC
15 America Tower
2929 Allen Parkway
16 Suite 2900
Houston, Texas 77019
17 713.650.1313
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1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 Appearances ...................... 2
4 CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE
5 - Examination by Mr. Moore 4
6
7 Signature and Changes ............. 125
8 Reporter's Certificate ............ 127
9
10 EXHIBITS
11 NO. DESCRIPTION MARKED
12 Exhibit 1 ....................................... 39
TCOLE Notice of Hearing - 9/24/19
13
Exhibit 2 ....................................... 53
14 Personnel File of Det. Brian Johns
Containing Evaluations and Commendations
15
Exhibit 3 ....................................... 73
16 Memo From Hobbs to Chody Re: Complaint
of Tx Penal Code 39.02 - 6/4/19
17
Exhibit 4 ....................................... 74
18 Investigative File for Brian Johns
19 Exhibit 5 ....................................... 97
Letter From McCabe to Chody Re: Appeal
20 of Termination - 7/7/19
21 Exhibit 6 ....................................... 104
Policy 2.6 - Bates Nos. DEF 01276 - 77
22
Exhibit 7 ....................................... 106
23 Grievance Procedure Effective 4/13/20
24
25
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1 CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE,
2 being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. MOORE:
5 Q. Would you state your name, please.
6 A. Tim Ryle, R-Y-L-E.
7 Q. And your position?
8 A. I am the chief deputy at the Williamson County
9 Sheriff's Office.
10 Q. I'm going to just call you chief if that's okay
11 for today?
12 A. That would be fine.
13 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. On how many occasions?
16 A. Maybe three or four.
17 Q. What were the circumstances of those, just in
18 general?
19 A. I was a corporate rep when I was working for
20 the City of Round Rock, and then I've had my deposition
21 taken as an expert witness.
22 Q. As an expert witness?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How long ago?
25 A. Probably five years ago.
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1 Q. You understand then that the purpose of the
2 deposition today is for me to ask questions and you to
3 provide answers? Number one, for me to find out what
4 you know and what you don't know, but also to know what
5 your position is going to be if we have to take this
6 case to trial?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. So today is my day to be able to find out the
9 information that you have, and it's just as important to
10 me what information you don't have. So if you don't
11 know the answer to my question, don't guess. Just tell
12 me you don't know. Okay?
13 A. Very good.
14 Q. If you don't understand my question or if I'm
15 not speaking clearly, please ask me to rephrase, define.
16 I want you to have a clear, concise question that you
17 feel capable of answering. Fair enough?
18 A. Fair enough.
19 Q. We can take a break at any time. The only
20 thing I ask is that if there's a question pending, we
21 answer the question before we take the break. You're
22 also free to refer to any documents that you may have in
23 order to answer a question.
24 You understand then having testified
25 before that the oath that you've given today is just as
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1 solemn as if you've given that oath in front of a judge
2 and jury?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Now, how long have you been an expert witness?
5 A. Well, I'm not currently acting as an expert
6 witness, but I did that for about three years.
7 Q. Did you do that under a company or on your own?
8 A. Well, I had a -- I had a company that was just
9 me. But I worked for lawyers.
10 Q. What was the name of the company?
11 A. Ryle Consulting.
12 Q. Was it a corporation or just --
13 A. No.
14 Q. -- just a d/b/a?
15 A. Just a d/b/a.
16 Q. All right. Now, when you testified as an
17 expert, did you testify -- well, what type of cases?
18 A. I testified as an expert in used force cases,
19 law enforcement used force cases.
20 Q. Do you remember whether you testified for the
21 department or for the officer or both?
22 A. For both.
23 Q. Who were the lawyers if you remember that you
24 worked for?
25 A. I worked for Joe Tooley in the northern
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1 district. I've worked for Mike Thompson and --
2 Q. Joe Tooley is out in Dallas, right?
3 A. Rowlett.
4 Q. Rowlett. Mike Thompson. Anybody else?
5 A. His partners, I can't remember all the names
6 so ...
7 Q. All right.
8 A. As an expert that's the -- and then I also
9 worked as an expert in a state case, state criminal
10 case. And I worked for Robert McCabe.
11 Q. When was that?
12 A. That was about five years ago, six years ago.
13 Q. And what kind of case was that?
14 A. A murder case.
15 Q. What was your role in that?
16 A. I was an expert witness on the defense.
17 Q. Fair enough. Can you give me your education
18 background?
19 A. I have a bachelor's degree.
20 Q. In what?
21 A. In organizational leadership.
22 Q. From where?
23 A. Mountain State University.
24 Q. Where is that at?
25 A. In West Virginia.
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1 Q. Did you attend that in person or online?
2 A. Online.
3 Q. When did you obtain that degree?
4 A. About 10, 15 years ago.
5 Q. Have you attended any graduate or postgraduate
6 courses?
7 A. No, sir, I have not.
8 Q. Do you hold any licenses or certifications?
9 A. Well, I hold a peace officer's license.
10 Q. What level?
11 A. Master peace officer. Texas.
12 Q. How long have you had that?
13 A. Maybe twenty years, I think. I can't be exact.
14 I don't know -- a long time.
15 Q. Have you ever been licensed as a peace officer
16 in any other state?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Let's go through your -- let's go through your
19 work history. Upon graduating from high school, do you
20 remember where you went to work?
21 A. So I was -- went to work for Roy Butler, Butler
22 Lincoln Mercury here in Austin as a mechanic's
23 assistant. Sometime --
24 Q. Do you remember what -- excuse me for
25 interrupting. Do you remember what year that was?
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1 A. Actually -- I actually was working there
2 already when I was in high school as part of the
3 half-day program in high school. So that would have
4 been '76, '77 time frame.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. After that I went to work for a company called
7 Fleet Maintenance here in Austin and then also for a
8 company that I don't remember the name of, but we hauled
9 the US mail to Houston.
10 Q. Private contractor?
11 A. Yes, for the postal service.
12 Q. Was it a common carrier -- a trucking company?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. What did you do for them?
15 A. I drove. I drove an 18-wheeler to Houston, and
16 I drove a bobtail truck to San Antonio delivering the
17 mail.
18 Q. Did you have to have a CDL back then?
19 A. It wasn't called that back then, but yes.
20 Q. When did you first become a police officer?
21 A. In 1982.
22 Q. Who was that with?
23 A. The City of Luling, Texas.
24 Q. How long were you with Luling?
25 A. I was at Luling about four months.
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1 Q. Then where did you go?
2 A. I went to the City of Round Rock.
3 Q. What were your -- were you a patrol officer in
4 Luling?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What did you do in Round Rock?
7 A. I worked through the ranks in Round Rock. I
8 was patrol officer; I was patrol supervisor; I was a
9 general supervisor. I was a narcotics investigator; I
10 was a trainer; I was in administration. And I retired
11 as a chief.
12 Q. How long were you with the City of Round Rock?
13 A. Thirty-one years.
14 Q. When did you -- did you retire as chief?
15 A. I did in 2014.
16 Q. What did you do in 2014, if anything?
17 A. I moved to Lubbock and raised my youngest
18 daughter, got her through high school.
19 Q. Were you working for any police department at
20 that time?
21 A. No, sir. I worked part-time at Lowe's.
22 Q. What is the next peace officer job that you
23 held after the chief of City of Round Rock?
24 A. Williamson County Sheriff's Office.
25 Q. When did you become employed with Williamson
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1 County Sheriff's Office?
2 A. January of 2017.
3 Q. Is that when Sheriff Chody took office?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. How long have you known Sheriff Chody?
6 A. I knew him kind of on the edges. I knew him
7 while I was at Round Rock. He was a constable in the
8 precinct -- his precinct was mainly in Round Rock. So I
9 kind of knew him on the edges. I didn't really know
10 him, know him.
11 Q. When did he approach you about becoming --
12 well, let me ask you this: What positions have you held
13 at Williamson County Sheriff's Office?
14 A. Just chief deputy.
15 Q. When did Sheriff Chody approach you about
16 becoming the chief deputy?
17 A. I believe it was about August -- July or August
18 of 2016.
19 Q. And that was, I guess, when he was -- was he
20 already in an election, or was he anticipating the
21 election at that time?
22 A. He had already won the election at that time.
23 Q. So I guess the election occurred in what?
24 March?
25 A. I say -- he won the runoff -- I mean, the
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1 primary. So there was no opponent in the general.
2 Q. So he won the primary in May, I guess, and
3 then --
4 A. March or something. And then there was no --
5 there was no opponent in November. So he was the
6 effective candidate, I guess, for sheriff.
7 Q. And he ran as a republican; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Have you ever had any involvement with -- as a
10 peace officer with any other elected position? Have you
11 ever worked for a constable or any other elected peace
12 officer?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. So this is your first job working for an
15 elected peace officer?
17 Q. Now, during the time that you were a peace
18 officer -- and I'm assuming that since you went to work
19 in Luling in 1982, that's when you got your peace
20 officer's certificate?
21 A. My basics, yeah. It was in 1982.
22 Q. Since that time has your peace officer license
23 ever been revoked, modified, suspended or terminated?
24 A. No, sir, none of my licenses.
25 Q. In any of your separations, have you ever
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1 received an F5 reflecting anything other than an
2 honorable discharge?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. During your years as a police officer, were you
5 ever disciplined?
6 A. I was disciplined when I was at the City of
7 Round Rock.
8 Q. Do you know on how many occasions?
9 A. On one occasion.
10 Q. And I'm assuming by your answer, you know what
11 that -- do you remember what that was for?
12 A. Oh, absolutely.
13 Q. What was it for?
14 A. For not making the training date I was supposed
15 to make.
16 Q. And I forgot to ask this question, but other
17 than -- besides giving depositions, have you ever
18 testified in court?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Numerous times?
21 A. Numerous times.
22 Q. Have you ever been denied the ability to
23 testify as a witness for any reason?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. What are your -- have your duties while you
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1 were at -- can I just call it Wilco for short?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Is that going to work?
4 A. That's fine with me.
5 Q. It's easier than saying Williamson County
6 Sheriff's Office. What are your duties at Wilco right
7 now?
8 A. I'm responsible for all operations. So that
9 includes the law enforcement operations across the
10 county, 1,100 square miles. That includes the county
11 jail that has a capacity of 1,100 inmates and the
12 justice center and protecting all the district and
13 county courts.
14 Q. So you have the actual field operations, jail
15 administration and building security? You're over that?
16 A. Yes. Courtroom security.
17 Q. Who is responsible for overseeing the training
18 academy?
19 A. One of the commanders that's in the law
20 enforcement bureau.
21 Q. Who would that be?
22 A. Commander Bomer.
23 Q. How do you spell his name?
24 A. It's a her.
25 Q. Her name.
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1 A. Kelly, K-E-L-L-Y, Bomer, B-O-M-E-R.
2 Q. And who does Kelly Bomer report to in the chain
3 of command?
4 A. Roy Fikac. He's a drill chief.
5 Q. And who does Roy Fikac report to?
6 A. He reports to me. And Fikac is spelled
7 F-I-K-A-C.
8 Q. So in the end, you do have responsibility for
9 patrol, jail, buildings and the academy?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Okay. Now, obviously when you say "responsible
12 for all operations," that's a pretty broad description.
13 Can you give me some more detail on what all that
14 involves?
15 A. Well, clearly I have a whole chain of command
16 below me that's responsible for their different sections
17 and the performance of the different sections, but my
18 job is to -- is to make sure that operations are
19 functioning as the sheriff wishes them to function and
20 we're providing the -- we're providing the community
21 with the services that a law enforcement agency
22 provides.
23 Q. And when you say that you're responsible for
24 providing those services, obviously, you can't ensure
25 that these services are being provided with 100 percent
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1 efficiency all the time. Would that be fair to say?
2 A. Fair to say.
3 Q. And so there's a difference between being
4 responsible for your duties versus ensuring your duties
5 are done. Is that a fair statement?
6 A. I'm not sure I understand the nuance that
7 you're getting at.
8 Q. Okay. Do you as the deputy chief ensure that
9 the field operations operate flawlessly?
10 A. I attempt to.
11 Q. Right. So that's the distinction I'm making.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. You don't ensure that they --
14 A. I'm not there on every event.
15 Q. Right.
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And you can't ensure that all the operations
18 are being done in accordance with what they're
19 supposed -- with the policy. Is that fair?
20 A. Fair.
21 Q. So you as the responsible person, all you can
22 do is do what you can to make sure that they're doing
23 the best they can in these activities?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. All right. So I'm drawing a line between
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1 guaranteeing a result versus doing your job in a
2 reasonable and prudent manner.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And you understand the distinction?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. All right. So let's talk about the chain of
7 command. Who do you report to?
8 A. The sheriff.
9 Q. What are the -- I want to make sure I get this
10 right. You are responsible for all operations of the
11 Williamson County Sheriff's Office?
12 A. Office, yes, sir.
13 Q. Is that fair?
14 A. That's fair.
15 Q. What does Sheriff Chody then do if you're
16 responsible for all operations?
17 A. Sheriff Chody is the elected official that
18 gives the overall guidance to the organization. So he
19 sets the -- I guess my words would be he sets the
20 direction and the tone of the organization within the
21 parameters of a law enforcement organization.
22 Q. So, basically, he dictates what the general
23 policy is, is what you're saying? And then you are
24 responsible for making sure that policy is carried out?
25 A. So at a high level, he says that I want -- I
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1 want national -- nationally recognized policies. My job
2 is to get those -- get those policies and implement
3 them.
4 Q. How does Sheriff Chody know that you're doing
5 what he has asked you to do?
6 A. I don't --
7 Q. What type of quality assurance program, I
8 guess, is -- or accountability program is in place at
9 Wilco for the sheriff to know that you are doing what he
10 wants you to do?
11 A. So I would -- I don't know what his -- what's
12 in his mind that would be that measure for him. So I
13 can't speculate on what he would do -- what he thinks it
14 is.
15 Q. I'm not asking about what he does. I'm asking
16 what the process is. I'll ask it this way: Is there a
17 process by which the sheriff verifies that what you are
18 doing is, in fact, making sure that his policy in the
19 overall responsibility for the operations is being done?
20 A. So there are a number of feedback loops if that
21 answers your question that he has. We have policies
22 describing citizen feedback and how to do that, how to
23 file complaints from the citizen's standpoint.
24 Q. So one way the sheriff will know that you're
25 doing your job is that a citizen can come in and
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1 complain?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. And that goes all the way up to the sheriff?
4 A. No. Generally -- a couple of ways it can
5 happen. It can be handled at the supervisor level
6 depending on what the type of complaint is or it goes
7 through internal affairs, and internal affairs may
8 investigate it.
9 Q. So a citizen complaint may not go to the
10 sheriff?
11 A. Unless he receives it directly from somebody
12 over social media or something like that or somebody he
13 knows, that may happen.
14 Q. All right. So --
15 A. But the process is you have a complaint -- file
16 a complaint either online or in person, and then that's
17 worked through the process of internal affairs or the
18 chain of command.
19 Q. Okay. So what feedback route is there between
20 you and Sheriff Chody in communicating what you're doing
21 so that Chody knows you as the deputy chief are doing
22 what he wants you to do?
23 A. So he sees policies in place. He's --
24 Q. When you say, "he sees them," he reads them
25 or --
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1 A. Everybody has to read them.
2 Q. What did you mean by, "he sees them"?
3 A. That's what I mean. Everybody sees all of
4 those policies. Everybody has to read them in the whole
5 organization.
6 Q. Why?
7 A. It's a program we have. It requires you to
8 read them and sign off on them to acknowledge that
9 you've received them.
10 Q. So it doesn't just apply to the lowest patrol
11 deputy. The sheriff has to read them too?
12 A. And the civilian, every civilian. It doesn't
13 matter.
14 Q. And does Sheriff Chody expect that the policies
15 in his department are going to be followed?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that's a good thing, isn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. So now, what I want to know is the
20 details of the feedback routes between you and Chody if
21 there is one.
22 A. We have performance evaluations that occur
23 annually. So in addition to that, occasionally the
24 sheriff will ask me about some specific incident that's
25 happening out there in the county.
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1 Q. All right. I want to talk about both of those
2 before you move on.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. So the performance evaluations that are done,
5 do those go up to the sheriff?
6 A. Mine? The sheriff does mine.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. All the rest of them are kind of -- they filter
9 their way to me. That's what they do.
10 Q. Does the sheriff see anybody's performance
11 evaluation other than you?
12 A. I don't know; I don't know.
13 Q. Does he have the right to --
14 A. Sure. He has access.
15 Q. -- to view? All right. So then the next thing
16 you said is that occasionally the sheriff will ask you
17 about something. So Sheriff Chody doesn't -- when you
18 say "occasionally," that to me is different than
19 routinely. So you're saying that every now and then the
20 sheriff will ask you how things are going on something
21 specific?
22 A. If he has -- yes. So I couldn't say that was
23 every day, but occasionally.
24 Q. So how often would -- how often does Sheriff
25 Chody ask you how things are going in your overall
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1 responsibility of the operations?
2 A. I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know how often.
3 Q. No idea?
4 A. Different -- different events may trigger it.
5 So it could be multiple times in one day, or it could be
6 one time in a week. So it just depends.
7 Q. Is there any set meeting date like I'm going to
8 meet with the sheriff every Wednesday at noon to go over
9 jail and Thursday to go over patrol? Anything like
10 that?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. So the only time the sheriff communicates with
13 you to verify that things are going as they should in
14 his mind is when he occasionally will ask you about
15 something?
16 A. Or he gets feedback from someone.
17 Q. So people can go around you to get to the
18 sheriff?
19 A. The community can actually go. Yeah, anybody
20 can go around me and get to the sheriff if they want to.
21 Q. All right. So does Sheriff Chody have an
22 open-door policy in his office whereby, say, Sergeant
23 Brogden, for example, could go into Sheriff Chody's
24 office and talk to him without going to Lieutenant New
25 and Commander Haston and Chief Deputy Ryle?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. How does that type -- how does that type
3 of open-door policy coordinate with your
4 chain-of-command policy that almost all paramilitary
5 organizations have? Tell me how that works.
6 A. So I guess to describe that, it would be the
7 chain of command would be aware. But the way the
8 atmosphere is at the agency is, it is routine for people
9 to be walking into the sheriff's office or my office --
10 or anybody's office really -- just to talk about
11 whatever. All right. So it is -- that's kind of his
12 version of the open-door policy, is that he wants to be
13 able to have direct contact with all levels of the
14 organization whenever he wants to. And he routinely
15 goes out and solicits that himself.
16 Q. So Sheriff Chody will routinely communicate
17 directly with people within the department as opposed to
18 going through you to do so?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Is this routine communication bypassing
21 you, is it limited to certain subjects? Or is it --
22 could it be on anything?
23 A. Could be on anything. And that includes the
24 community as well.
25 Q. When would such communication in an open-door
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1 sheriff's office violate chain-of-command policy?
2 A. So if the chain of command was not aware, then
3 you could potentially violate policy.
4 Q. Why potentially and supposedly not
5 automatically?
6 A. Because every circumstance has its uniqueness.
7 So you could potentially violate policy because --
8 simply because of that.
9 Q. So is every violation of policy grounds for
10 discipline?
11 A. There's a potential.
12 Q. That's what I'm asking.
13 A. There's a potential for discipline of some
14 kind.
15 Q. I'll reask the question.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Is every violation of policy automatically
18 grounds for discipline at Wilco?
19 A. So I'm trying to understand your question.
20 When you say, "grounds for discipline," does that mean
21 the same as eligible to be disciplined?
22 Q. I'll reask. Every -- is the policy at Wilco
23 such that every violation of policy makes the violator
24 eligible for discipline?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Does every violation of policy at Wilco result
2 in discipline?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Why not?
5 A. As I said earlier, every situation is unique.
6 And so it will depend on what happened in that
7 particular situation as to whether or not discipline is
8 necessary.
9 Q. All right. So in the chain-of-command context
10 that we're talking about, if someone goes into the
11 sheriff's office and doesn't make their chain-of-command
12 aware of such, it could be a violation of policy, and it
13 might result in discipline, but not automatically?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. All right. Fair enough. So what -- so let's
16 talk about the policies. When Sheriff Chody came into
17 office, were there policies already in existence at
18 Wilco?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When Sheriff Chody came into office, did he
21 change all the policies or some of the policies or any
22 of the policies?
23 A. So we touched every policy.
24 Q. What does that mean? "Touched," what does that
25 mean?
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1 A. Well, we reviewed. Whether we made major or
2 minor changes would depend -- would depend on what that
3 old policy looked like. But essentially, when the
4 sheriff came into the office, in advance of the sheriff
5 coming into office, we had submitted an entire policy
6 manual to the organization prior to the sheriff's
7 office -- the sheriff actually taking office in January.
8 Q. So --
9 A. If that makes sense.
10 Q. When Sheriff Chody took office in January of
11 '17 --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- did he institute a brand-new policy and
14 procedure manual?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And where do these policies and procedures that
17 were instituted come from?
18 A. So the base guideline for them were a product
19 of the Texas Best Practices which comes from the Texas
20 Police Chiefs Association. So it's called Texas Best
21 Practices. So the basis for those policies and
22 guidelines came from there, and then they were touched
23 by us -- myself and the rest of the command element
24 to -- make them unique to the Williamson County
25 Sheriff's Office if needed.
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1 Q. And you said "we" and "us" touched them a
2 couple of times. Who is we and who is us?
3 A. So Chief Fikac, Chief Doyer.
4 Q. How do you spell that name?
5 A. Doyer?
6 Q. Yeah.
7 A. D-O-Y-E-R. The commanders, so Commander
8 Williams, at that time Commander Deaton, Commander
9 Watts, Commander Lloyd, Commander Carter. At that time
10 it was -- I think that's it.
11 Q. And so in this group of us and we, did it
12 include you and the sheriff as well?
13 A. Not the sheriff, but I was there.
14 Q. So the sheriff basically got the Texas Best
15 Practice manual and gave it to you, and you and the
16 chiefs and the commanders then revised the policies and
17 customized them for Williamson County. Is that fair?
18 A. The sheriff had -- when he was a constable in
19 Precinct 1 just prior to being sheriff, he had -- he had
20 been awarded accreditation by Texas Police Chiefs
21 Association under the best practices program for the
22 policy development and the processes that he implemented
23 at the Constable's Office.
24 So he had that product, and we took that
25 product, and we incorporated it into the sheriff's
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1 office for --
2 Q. So what I said, is it accurate? Basically,
3 that Sheriff Chody had the policies, gave them to you,
4 and then you and the two chiefs and the four or five
5 commanders then customized them to Williamson County?
6 A. That's accurate.
7 Q. Did Chody get the final approval?
8 A. Of course.
9 Q. Why of course would he get the final approval?
10 A. It's his agency.
11 Q. Well, does Chody have the final approval on all
12 decisions that occur within Wilco?
13 A. The Sheriff delegates some decisions. So I
14 guess the answer would be no, but he has -- ultimately
15 does because he delegates the authority.
16 Q. All right. Let's talk about that for a minute.
17 Do you agree that the sheriff as the elected official of
18 the Sheriff's Department has the right to make the final
19 decision on anything that happens within his department?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what you say -- and when I asked the
22 question of does he have the final decision-making
23 authority, you said he delegates some decisions?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Now, he didn't delegate the final decision on
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1 the policy manual, though, did he?
2 A. So he has to sign off on each policy.
3 Q. Right. My question is, though, he could have
4 given you -- he could have delegated to you the right to
5 make the final decision on whether the policy manual was
6 as he wanted it, but he didn't? He reserved that final
7 right of his own self?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that's because policies to him are
10 important?
11 A. I don't -- I don't know why he did it. He had
12 that policy manual prior to the Sheriff's Office, so it
13 could have been for other reasons.
14 Q. What other reasons can you think of other than
15 it was important to him?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. All right. So let's talk about the things that
18 Sheriff Chody doesn't have the final decision on as
19 sheriff. What things has Sheriff Chody delegated so
20 that he does not have the final decision on within
21 Wilco?
22 A. So the Sheriff does not get into whether people
23 take time off or don't take time off.
24 Q. Okay. Vacation?
25 A. With the exception of me, right, the direct
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1 reports.
2 Q. Yes, sir.
3 A. The Sheriff does not get into noncritical
4 policy changes. For example, if we are going to -- if
5 we are going to change the policy on how we park cars at
6 the Sheriff's Office, then the Sheriff is not in the
7 weeds on that kind of policy at this time.
8 The Sheriff is -- the Sheriff is not
9 involved in the hiring or firing decisions. The
10 Sheriff -- he's not into the operations on the jail, on
11 courthouse security. He's aware of all of those things,
12 but all of that operation is delegated down through the
13 chain of command to get performed.
14 Q. All right. Let's talk about each of those. So
15 the things that Sheriff Chody has chosen to not have
16 final say on as sheriff are number one, time off; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Except for me.
19 Q. All right. Excluding you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But for everybody else, the entire Sheriff's
22 Department, Sheriff Chody has chosen to not have the
23 final say on whether they take time off or not?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. He has also chosen to not have the final say in
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1 noncritical policy changes?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Sheriff Chody has also decided to not have the
4 final say in who is hired and who is fired at his
5 Sheriff's Department?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And Sheriff Chody has not -- has decided that
8 he will not have the final say in the operations of the
9 jail and the courthouse security?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Now, why has Sheriff Chody chosen to not have a
12 final say over these one, two, three, four, five things?
13 MR. KRONE: Objection, form.
14 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) You can answer.
15 A. There are probably other things that I didn't
16 mention, but I can't remember what they are. The
17 Sheriff has put together a team that he depends on to
18 function and make those operations function. So he does
19 not have to spend -- spend that time to make sure that
20 the corrections officers are monitoring themselves the
21 way they're supposed to or patrol deputies are in their
22 beats as their -- stuff like that. That's a standard
23 practice in management of law enforcement agencies.
24 Q. So how many sworn officers do you have in
25 this -- in Wilco right now?
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1 A. 223.
2 Q. So --
3 A. That's on the law enforcement side. We have
4 about 650 employees. So we have a little over 300
5 licensed jail -- jail and court personnel. I don't know
6 the exact number.
7 Q. All right. So do you know why Sheriff Chody
8 has chosen to not have the final say in hiring and
9 firing decisions, operation of the jail and in
10 courthouse security?
11 A. He has delegated that to the chiefs and bureau
12 chiefs to accomplish.
13 Q. Right. And I know that you've testified that
14 he has actually done that. What my question is, is do
15 you know why --
16 A. Oh.
17 Q. -- he has chosen to delegate that rather than
18 have the final authority in his department for those
19 things himself?
20 A. I do not know why.
21 Q. So I need to ask him, then, right? He's the
22 only one that's going to know?
23 A. He would be the only one that would know why he
24 does that.
25 Q. Okay. And, in your opinion, why would the head
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1 person of the department not want to have the final say
2 over who is hired and who is fired from his department?
3 A. So in my position -- because I also don't have
4 any final authority over who is hired. That's delegated
5 to the bureau chiefs and the process. So the Sheriff or
6 I have confidence in the process and depend on the
7 bureau chiefs to make good decisions on hiring.
8 On the firing piece, the firing piece is
9 delegated -- the discipline piece is delegated to me as
10 the chief deputy by the Sheriff. The reason that is, is
11 he wants to be available for the appeal process if there
12 is an appeal or anything. So he stays out of it until a
13 time where an appeal is filed and he accepts an appeal.
14 Q. So -- and is that the way you ran it when you
15 were the chief of Round Rock?
16 A. Pretty much. We were a civil service -- kind
17 of a civil service organization at Round Rock. So it's
18 fairly much the same.
19 Q. All right. So, basically, are you saying that
20 Sheriff Chody has elected to delegate discipline to his
21 team and to stay out of discipline so that when an
22 appeal occurs, he can look at it without a tainted or a
23 preformed opinion?
24 A. That's why I would do it. I would do it so --
25 Q. My question is why. Is that why he did it? Is
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1 that why he's doing it?
2 A. I believe --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) So does that make sense to you?
6 If the chief is going -- the chief is going to hear the
7 appeal, right?
8 A. The Sheriff.
9 Q. I'm sorry. The Sheriff is the last level of
10 the appeal; is that correct?
11 A. He is the appeal.
12 Q. All right. And so the Sheriff -- if the -- in
13 order to fairly and objectively evaluate whether or not
14 a termination or a discipline has been done by policy,
15 it's best that he not know anything about it until it
16 gets to his desk for the first time. Is that fair?
17 A. I think it's -- I think it's fair.
18 Q. And that's so that he can look at it for the
19 first time on appeal and say, "Here is what my chain of
20 command did on one side. Here is what this person that
21 I'm disciplining did on this side. And I can look at
22 both sides. And like a judge, I can make a decision
23 that's objective and not biased," true?
24 A. I would say true. True.
25 Q. All right. Now, the one thing that you said
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1 differently in these five things -- and I'm not going to
2 hold you to that that's the only five because you said
3 there were a few other things. But when we went through
4 this list of five things, when you got to operations of
5 the jail and the courthouse security, you made the point
6 of saying on those two things that he was aware of what
7 was going on. Do you remember saying that?
8 A. I think he's aware of what goes on in the whole
9 agency. Just at what level he's aware would be --
10 Q. So the sheriff --
11 A. I don't think he's aware of everything, but
12 "awareness" is kind of a catchall term.
13 Q. Right. So why did you say he was aware of
14 operations of the jail and courthouse security, but you
15 didn't say that he was aware of the hiring and firing
16 process?
17 A. He's aware of the process. He's aware of the
18 process. So he nor I take part in who -- in making a
19 decision on who gets hired, but we're fully aware of the
20 process.
21 Q. Is Sheriff Chody aware of disciplinary action
22 that is taken in his department?
23 A. He is.
24 Q. And do you think that the head elected official
25 of the Sheriff's Department should know about each
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1 disciplinary process as it's working its way through IA?
2 A. I think that he may know that an investigation
3 is underway, but as far as knowing how it's going
4 through the process, he's not aware of that stuff.
5 Q. All right. I want to -- I'm going to ask my
6 question a little bit differently. Is the Sheriff of
7 Williamson County Sheriff's Office made aware of
8 internal affairs investigations while they're pending --
9 that they are actually occurring?
10 A. Sometimes.
11 Q. And why not all the time?
12 A. For me, I'm the one that makes those
13 notifications. So for me, it's about -- it's really
14 about the gravity of the particular complaint.
15 Q. All right. So it would be a lot different --
16 A. If it's gross misconduct of a deputy or
17 something like that, something that he's going to start
18 hearing about, then I want to make sure that he's aware
19 in advance.
20 Q. Why would he --
21 A. If it's more routine stuff, then I might not
22 tell him.
23 Q. So isn't it true that in these departments that
24 no matter how tight-lipped people are rumors and gossip
25 get out?
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2 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) You've been a police officer a
3 long time. Would you agree with that?
4 A. There's a lot of gossip that gets out.
5 Q. And it's highly unlikely that an internal
6 affairs investigation would get started in Sheriff
7 Chody's department without him at least finding out
8 about it in some way. Would you agree with that?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Okay. Do you disagree with that?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. All right. Let's talk about what you said,
13 gravity. You're familiar with the F5 process, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There are presently three categories of
16 separation status, right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. One of them is honorable, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The other one is a general?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the other one is dishonorable, right?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And to be dishonorably discharged, is that a
25 bad thing?
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1 A. I think it's a bad thing for your license.
2 Q. In the scheme of being a police officer, is
3 receiving a dishonorable discharge something that could
4 negatively affect that officer's ability to get another
5 job?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And if you get two dishonorable discharges,
8 don't you lose your peace officer's license within a
9 certain period of time?
10 A. I do not know.
11 Q. Are you aware of the TCOLE rule that says if
12 you have -- you as a peace officer get two dishonorable
13 discharges within a certain period of time, that you can
14 lose your license?
15 A. What I know is that each one is subject to
16 administrative hearing. So nothing is final until that
17 administrative hearing occurs if it's asked for, and
18 then the determination is made on the license. And then
19 I'm assuming the rule you're talking about would take
20 effect at that point.
21 Q. Are you familiar with that rule?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. So what are the things that can get you
24 as a police officer dishonorably discharged?
25 A. What are the things?
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1 Q. Yes, sir.
2 A. I would have to read the exact verbiage.
3 That's what I do. Every time I sign one, I read the
4 verbiage on each one of them to see where the particular
5 offense fits in the category so ...
6 Q. I could be mistaken, but I think that the three
7 categories of things are violation of a criminal law?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Truthfulness, insubordination. Does that sound
10 right?
11 A. And which one is that for?
12 Q. Dishonorable discharge.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Does that sound right? You have to say yes or
15 no.
16 A. Yes or no. I need to read it so --
17 Q. Okay. Let's look at one.
18 A. That's what I do every time. I read it.
19 Q. Let's look at one.
20 (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 marked)
21 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Let me show you what's been
22 marked as Exhibit No. 1 and ask if you --
23 MR. MOORE: Sorry. I'm going to have the
24 same problem you had yesterday.
25 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) I'll ask if you can identify
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1 this exhibit.
2 A. So I can read what this says. This is a notice
3 of hearing -- paperwork for a notice of hearing.
4 Q. We can go ahead and skip to the very last page.
5 A. Okay. The very last page is a separation of
6 license F5 form from the Commission on Law Enforcement.
7 Q. And that's your signature below, correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And it says, "I, chief administrator or
10 designee, attest that this is a true and accurate
11 explanation of the circumstances under which this person
12 resigned or was terminated," correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. What does that mean?
15 A. That means I'm attesting that the box that I
16 check is appropriate to this particular individual --
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. -- and the actions that they took.
19 Q. And attesting, that's the same thing as
20 swearing?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So underneath here you checked dishonorably
23 discharged, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And the first one, A, says, "allegation of
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1 criminal misconduct," correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then B says, "insubordination or
4 untruthfulness."
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. All right. So the three things that I listed
7 that you could get a dishonorable discharge for are
8 violating the law -- criminal law?
9 A. Or resigning in lieu of.
10 Q. Correct. Or lying?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Untruthfulness or insubordination?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So those are all -- to you as a police officer,
15 those are all serious offenses, are they not?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. No doubt that those are serious?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. So in a -- let's talk about this.
20 What is the internal affairs process at Williamson
21 County? How does it work?
22 A. So we have an internal affairs section, and
23 they receive complaints, internal and external
24 complaints. Depending on the type of complaint, they
25 may be referred -- they may check into it themselves.
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1 They may refer it to the chain of command to look into
2 and take action on. So that's essentially the process.
3 Q. And who is over the internal affairs process?
4 A. Well, there's a sergeant and a lieutenant in
5 that section, and they report -- or this lieutenant
6 reports to me.
7 Q. So in internal affairs, the lieutenant reports
8 directly to the chief deputy?
10 Q. And in the Williamson County Sheriff's Office,
11 is it routine or policy for the sheriff to be made aware
12 of internal affairs investigations that are -- that
13 involve any of these serious actions that we just listed
14 on the F5: violation of criminal law, untruthfulness or
15 insubordination?
16 A. Your question again one more time?
17 MR. MOORE: Can you read it back?
18 (The record was read as requested.)
19 A. So the answer is no.
20 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) So Sheriff Chody could, as the
21 head official of the department, not be aware of a
22 deputy in his office that is under investigation for
23 violation of a criminal law, being untruthful or
24 insubordination?
25 A. Could be.
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1 Q. What -- when you say, "could be," why? What
2 dictates whether or not he would be notified?
3 A. So the Sheriff -- I would notify the Sheriff if
4 I was updated on a case where a deputy or a licensee of
5 any kind was a suspect in a criminal case. I would make
6 the sheriff aware of that.
7 Q. But you wouldn't notify the Sheriff to tell him
8 that one of his deputies was being investigated for
9 lying?
10 A. No, not routinely, no.
11 Q. And you couldn't tell the Sheriff that one of
12 his deputies was being investigated for insubordination?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Only if that deputy violated criminal law and
15 then maybe?
16 A. Well, there would need to be -- there would
17 need to be some evidence that a criminal law was
18 violated.
19 Q. So the first time he would find out about that
20 would be when -- in the appeal process if there was one?
21 A. At the conclusion of my actions, he would be --
22 I would tell him what my action was.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. But that would be when I would know he was
25 aware of it: When I would tell him what my final action
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1 was.
2 Q. So if you terminate somebody for
3 insubordination, untruthfulness or violation of a
4 criminal law, once that termination is -- has occurred,
5 do you then tell Sheriff Chody that it has occurred?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Okay. And then what information does he get at
8 the time you tell him about that serious complaint?
9 A. So at that time, I would tell him what the
10 charge was, what the finding was and then what my action
11 was.
12 Q. And Sheriff Chody if he wanted to could
13 overrule you?
14 A. That's what the appeal process is for. So in
15 the grievance policy, you can file an appeal in order to
16 get the Sheriff to take an action.
17 Q. Okay. My question is a little bit different.
18 If Sheriff Chody got a report from you and looked at it
19 and said, "I flat disagree with this," he could, being
20 the head law enforcement officer there, disagree and
21 overrule you?
22 A. He is my boss. Yes.
23 Q. Has he ever done that? First of all, he is my
24 boss is the answer? Yes or no?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. All right. Has he ever done that?
2 A. I do not remember a case.
3 Q. Has he ever --
4 A. He may have.
5 Q. Has he ever told you, I do agree -- I mean, "I
6 don't agree with this," whether your decision was to
7 discipline or not discipline an officer?
8 A. Not that I remember.
9 Q. I'm not limiting it to just termination.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I'm just saying you charged -- internal affairs
12 charged somebody with something, and they were
13 exonerated. Would you tell the Sheriff then?
14 A. Again, it depends on the gravity of what it
15 was. If it was a case where --
16 Q. The three main categories we just talked about.
17 A. No. Of the three main categories we talked
18 about, if they were exonerated of that, I would tell him
19 about the case and tell him they were exonerated.
20 Q. And you would also tell him if they were -- if
21 the charges were sustained and they were disciplined?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then you would tell him what discipline was
24 imposed?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And under that scenario that's happened since
2 2017, has he ever disagreed with you and said, "No. I
3 think that guy needs to be convicted," or "Those charges
4 need to be sustained," or "No. I don't think he
5 deserves a suspension. I think a demotion is
6 sufficient"? Has he ever said anything like that?
7 A. So he has had appeals, and through appeals,
8 he's changed the outcomes.
9 Q. All right. How often does that happen?
11 Q. Is there -- is there any kind of document at
12 the Williamson County Sheriff's Office or gather of
13 documents that would reveal how many times a discipline
14 from IA was overruled by the Sheriff?
15 A. On the appeal process?
16 Q. Yes, sir.
17 A. I do not know. I do not know.
18 Q. Does he do it in writing by memo or anything of
19 that nature?
21 Q. How do you find out about it if --
22 A. So I'm trying to think of an occasion where
23 that's happened. I don't know if I get an email. I
24 don't know how that happens that he decides to make some
25 other -- make some other decision besides the one that I
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1 made.
2 Q. Okay. And whether he does or not, we agree
3 that he gets the final say, right?
4 A. On appeal, yes.
5 Q. All right. So tell me how the internal affairs
6 process works once the complaint is filed. I'm assuming
7 in your department like most others, a complaint can be
8 initiated within the department or by a citizen, right?
9 A. Correct, correct.
10 Q. Does the process vary once a complaint is filed
11 whether it's filed by a citizen or within the
12 department?
13 A. Vary in what way?
14 Q. In the investigation process after the
15 complaint is in internal affairs, or is it done the same
16 for both of those types of complaints?
17 A. Well, an investigation takes all kinds of
18 shapes and forms, but essentially the process is the
19 same.
20 Q. Okay. Right. And I understand each individual
21 investigation is going to vary, but I'm talking about
22 just the process now. So if I, Randy Moore, file a
23 complaint or you file a complaint against a deputy, the
24 process in internal affairs is going to be the same?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. All right. So tell me what that process is.
2 A. So essentially internal affairs will look at
3 the initial complaint. They will make a recommendation
4 as to whether or not the chain of command should handle
5 it or it should be handled by internal affairs --
6 meaning investigated by. And then based on that, either
7 the chain of command will conduct an investigation and
8 memo it out -- their recommendations out to their chain
9 of command or internal affairs will conduct an
10 investigation. At that point it will be turned over to
11 the chain of command -- turned over to me, and I turn it
12 over to the chain of command for their review and
13 recommendations.
14 Q. Who makes the decision on whether the charges
15 are sustained or not sustained?
16 A. So internal affairs will make a recommendation
17 based on the preponderance of the evidence whether or
18 not they should sustain, exonerate, not sustain or
19 unfound the case, so one of those four categories.
20 Q. And then it goes through the chain to -- do
21 y'all roundtable it, or does it go up each level?
22 A. So it comes to me, and then I push it to the
23 bureau chief. The bureau chief pushes it down to
24 whatever level in the chain of command.
25 Q. Who determines discipline?
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1 A. I ultimately determine discipline.
2 Q. Who does?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Okay. And does -- do you as the chief deputy
5 follow a progressive discipline metrics?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And what is a progressive discipline metrics?
8 A. So we have metrics in our policy that describes
9 different levels of offenses and then a progression on
10 those offenses. So it will have a recommended sanction.
11 It will have a first or second or third offense,
12 depending on the type of activity it is, the type of
13 behavior that you're trying to address.
14 Q. What does the discipline metrics say for
15 violation of criminal law?
16 A. It -- I don't have it in front of me, but it
17 likely says that it's subject to termination.
18 Q. What does it say for -- I'm not going to hold
19 you to it. But what do you believe it says as to
20 truthfulness?
21 A. Likely the same.
22 Q. And what does it say as to insubordination?
23 A. I do not know. It's probably in a category
24 like that.
25 Q. So if somebody is charged with insubordination,
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1 are you saying it can result in termination, but it
2 doesn't necessarily have to?
4 Q. All right. Are you familiar with a Brady list?
5 A. I am.
6 Q. What is the Brady list?
7 A. I read -- I actually read an article on TMPA
8 this week -- yesterday on the Brady list. So the Brady
9 list essentially is a product that prosecutors use to
10 determine whether or not a particular officer is viable
11 to testify in a criminal case -- or I guess any case.
12 Q. Do you know what will get an officer placed on
13 the Brady list in Williamson County?
14 A. I do not.
15 Q. Do you know whether Williamson County has the
16 obligation to report certain investigation findings to
17 the district attorney for the Brady list purposes?
18 A. So I know -- I know we have a process called --
19 we call it JP letters -- that we make the -- both
20 prosecutors' offices aware of when there's disciplinary
21 action on troops -- on licensees.
22 Q. And so when do you -- when does the Sheriff's
23 Office report sworn personnel to the DA's office for
24 Brady list purposes?
25 A. So that happens once the action is completed.
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1 Q. For what offenses?
2 A. Well, we now report everything, pretty much
3 everything.
4 Q. And let the DA sort it out?
5 A. One of the prosecutors' offices, the county
6 attorney or the district attorney's offices.
7 Q. So you report -- the county attorney here
8 prosecutes misdemeanors?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And the DA --
11 A. Civil and misdemeanors. Yeah.
12 Q. And then the DA will prosecute the felonies?
13 A. Correct.
14 MR. MOORE: Okay. We've been going about
15 an hour. Do you want to take a break?
16 MR. KRONE: Well --
17 MR. MOORE: I do for the court reporter.
18 MR. KRONE: Yeah. Whatever you want.
19 MR. MOORE: Let's take a break.
20 (Brief recess: 11:11 a.m. to 11:32 a.m.)
21 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) All right. I'm ready to move
22 on to the next topic, but I've got just a couple of more
23 follow-up questions on the process that we were talking
24 about. So we agreed that the Sheriff as the head
25 elected official of the department has the right to make
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1 the final decision on terminations, correct?
2 A. He delegates that to me.
3 Q. He has the right to make that decision?
4 A. Oh, sure.
5 Q. And he has delegated that decision to you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he may or may not know what goes on in an
8 internal affairs case until it gets to him, if an appeal
9 is filed; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And then if an appeal is filed, then he can
12 make the final decision?
13 A. Correct. He can overturn a decision.
14 Q. Right. So in the end, the Sheriff, if an
15 appeal is filed, has the final decision --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- on a termination?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now what I want to talk to you about now
20 is --
21 A. And an appeal has to be heard. He has to
22 accept the appeal. So you can ask for an appeal, and he
23 makes the determination of whether or not he's going to
24 hear it or not.
25 Q. Okay. And if he rejects an appeal, then he has
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1 by that decision made the decision that he's not going
2 to hear the appeal and the decision stands?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. So let's talk about Brian Johns. When
5 was the first time that you met Brian Johns?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. Do you know Brian Johns?
8 A. I do know Brian Johns, yes.
9 Q. How do you know him?
10 A. He worked at the Sheriff's Office.
11 Q. When was the first time that you can remember
12 hearing Brian Johns' name?
13 A. I guess after we -- after the Sheriff took
14 office in '17. I do not remember a specific
15 opportunity.
17 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) But you've known him at least
18 since 2017?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. So the Sheriff's Department or
21 Sheriff's Office keeps a personnel file on each of its
22 employees?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So in discovery in this case, we asked for
25 certain documents, and one of the things we asked for
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1 were the evaluations.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. And commendations of Brian Johns, and I believe
4 that Exhibit 2 is, in fact, his evaluation and
5 commendations, but I would like for you to identify
6 Exhibit 2.
7 A. This first page --
8 Q. Why don't you just look through all of them
9 first --
10 A. Oh, okay.
11 Q. -- and tell me what it is -- if I'm correct.
12 Is this commendations and evaluations?
13 A. (Witness reads document.) Okay.
14 Q. Okay. So what documents are contained within
15 Exhibit 2?
16 A. So I see letters of commendation, personal
17 commendations that occurred back in 2016. I see some
18 that were in 2014, again, letters of commendation in
19 2014. I see a performance evaluation that was done on
20 Brian Johns in October of '17.
21 Q. And what's the Bates number on that page?
22 A. Say again.
23 Q. What's the Bates on the bottom --
24 A. The Bates number? 322. I see a performance
25 evaluation that's on that page. The second page of it
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1 is -- I don't know what happened to it. When it got
2 copied, something is wrong with it. And then I see
3 another performance evaluation on Brian Johns. It looks
4 like it's a midyear performance review, but none of
5 the -- none of the categories have been filled out. So
6 I don't know why that is because on a review, you've got
7 to fill out a category. But none of them are filled out
8 for some reason.
9 Q. What's the date on that?
10 A. That is 10/1/17 to 9/30/18. It's a midyear
11 performance review, and the Bates number is 333.
12 Q. Okay. So do you know whether the Sheriff's
13 Department has evaluations for employees that were there
14 before Sheriff Chody took office?
15 A. They would be in the personnel files if they're
16 there.
17 Q. Okay. Have you looked at those on Brian Johns?
18 A. I have not.
19 Q. Were you the person who made the decision to
20 terminate Brian?
21 A. I was.
22 Q. Did you look at any of his evaluations prior to
23 terminating him?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Did you look at any of his
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1 commendations prior to terminating him?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you look at his discipline file prior to
4 terminating him?
5 A. I did not look at the file. I got an update --
6 I get an update whether there has been any discipline or
7 not. So I had no record of any discipline on him.
8 Q. All right. So at the time Brian Johns was
9 terminated, he had no prior discipline that you were
10 aware of?
11 A. The only thing that was involved is the action
12 that was taken by his chain of command, his written
13 counseling on not performing his job. And that was
14 within that last investigation.
15 Q. Right. Prior to the investigation that
16 resulted in his termination, had you seen any discipline
17 on Brian Johns prior to that time?
18 A. I had no reason to.
19 Q. Are you aware of any discipline that existed
20 prior to the instance that led to his termination in
21 2018?
22 A. I am not aware of any other than what was
23 involved in that action.
24 Q. And you heard him testify. You were at Brian's
25 deposition yesterday, correct?
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2 Q. You heard him testify he had only been
3 disciplined, I think, one time. Does that sound
4 familiar?
5 A. I don't remember what he said. I think he said
6 yes, one or two times. I don't remember so ...
7 Q. You would have no reason to dispute that?
8 A. No, no.
9 Q. All right. So let's go through this real
10 quick. What is the purpose of the evaluation process?
11 A. So performance evaluations in my world are
12 about trying to focus the employee on particular
13 objectives of the organization. So in this process,
14 it's done a couple of different ways where you have core
15 competencies of the organization which everybody has to
16 do regardless. And then you may have specialties that
17 are associated with your particular job, you know, that
18 are encompassed in a performance evaluation. And the
19 supervisor and the employee collaborate on it to move
20 the employee towards whatever his goals and objectives
21 are.
22 Q. So if there are deficiencies that exist in an
23 employee's performance, the twice-a-year evaluations are
24 designed to identify those and correct them?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. All right. So what was the page of the first
2 evaluation that you saw on here?
3 A. 322 was the first one, and that was actually
4 the second evaluation during that time frame. So the
5 one that's at the end is the first evaluation.
6 Q. And what page is it on?
7 A. 333, I think, was the page.
8 Q. Can you look at that document and tell where
9 Brian stood during this evaluation on his performance?
10 A. I cannot. As I said earlier, the -- there are
11 signatures on this midyear performance review, but none
12 of the categories are filled out --
13 Q. All right. Well, there's --
14 A. -- at all.
15 Q. Look at Page 330.
16 A. Oh, that's on the other one?
17 Q. Yeah.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. So what is the date of the evaluations that
20 we're seeing on 330?
21 A. The only date I see on this is at the bottom
22 left, and it says 10/17. I'm assuming that's the date.
23 Q. So as of 10/17, where did Brian stand in his
24 evaluations?
25 A. I don't know if that's the date of this
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1 evaluation because this was actually signed on 1/30 of
2 '18.
3 Q. So who do I need to talk to to find out how
4 Brian was evaluated in 2018? Who would be the person
5 that could interpret this for me?
6 A. I can interpret it for you.
7 Q. Tell me what it says Brian's evaluation was.
8 A. What page are you on?
9 Q. I'm looking at 330 where it says, "rating
10 average." It's got 3.0.
11 A. Yes, 3.0. It has 12 marked out, and then it
12 says 3.0.
13 Q. Yeah. What does that mean?
14 A. 3.0 is the average. If you take these numbers
15 on "exceeds, meets or needs improvement," and you
16 average them, that's the average.
17 Q. So that means he exceeds standards?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. So on page --
20 A. It actually puts him at the very top of that
21 category.
22 Q. And that's -- if we look on Page 332, can we
23 tell whether that exceeds -- let me find the word now --
24 exceeds standards applied in June of '18 or September of
25 '18?
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1 A. So I don't have 332 in my stack.
2 Q. You don't?
3 A. Mine goes from three -- oh, wait a minute. Is
4 that Page 7 of 9, by chance?
5 Q. It's 9 of 9.
6 A. Nine of nine. Okay. It is. So this was the
7 end of review period, performance review, actually
8 mid -- they're all checked for some reason. So I can't
9 really tell which one it is. But it looks like it was
10 signed on the 30th of January in '18 which tells me that
11 it was completed three months after the end of the
12 period -- of the performance period. And here --
13 Q. So what are these signatures that are dated
14 June 6, 2018 and 9/10/18? What are those for?
15 A. So those are when he actually met with his
16 chain of command, and they reviewed him. So the 6/6 is
17 probably the midyear, midyear performance review on
18 6/6/18. And then the 9/10/18 says it's physical
19 end-of-year performance review. And then on the front
20 page when it talks about forming a review plan, the date
21 on it is 1/30/2018.
22 Q. The period goes from 1/1/17 to 9/30/18.
23 A. 10/1 of '17.
24 Q. 10/1/17 to 9/30/18.
25 A. Correct.
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1 Q. So as of 9/30/18, Brian Johns exceeded
2 standards?
3 A. As of 9/10, yes.
4 Q. All right. And then do you see any evaluation
5 after that?
6 A. I do not, not in what you gave me.
7 Q. Okay. Well, this is all I have. So was Brian
8 Johns not evaluated in 2019?
9 A. He -- everybody should have been evaluated in
10 2019.
11 Q. Have you seen his 2019 evaluation?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. Have you had any interactions with
14 Brian Johns personally?
15 A. Personally? Or at work?
16 Q. At work.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Let me rephrase. Have you had any involvement
19 interaction with Brian Johns in person?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. So as the chief deputy, what would your
22 involvement with Brian Johns have been?
23 A. Goodness. I didn't have much interaction with
24 Brian Johns. I probably had some interaction with him
25 surrounding an award ceremony perhaps, first-year award
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1 ceremony; some interaction with him surrounding
2 procedures pertaining to his role in the auto theft task
3 force and our impound yard.
4 And then I may have had contact with him
5 on some other occasions. I don't know what that is, and
6 then I had another contact with him where he and I
7 talked about times when I was association president and
8 him being an association president. And, like I said,
9 there could have been other occasions. I can't remember
10 any.
11 Q. Do you have any first-hand knowledge of the
12 relationship that Brian Johns had with Sheriff Chody?
13 A. No. I was -- I don't think I've ever been in a
14 conversation with the two of them at the same time.
15 Q. Right.
16 A. I don't think I have so ...
17 Q. But you were at the deposition yesterday. And
18 you saw the exhibits where there was texting going on
19 between Sheriff Chody and Brian Johns, correct?
20 A. I didn't get to see them but --
21 Q. Well, let's look at them then.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. It was Exhibit 9 yesterday -- from yesterday's
24 deposition of Brian. And so Exhibit 9 indicates that as
25 of December of 2018, Robert Chody and Brian Johns were
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1 texting back and forth to each other, correct?
2 A. Is that when this is? 2018?
3 Q. Yes, sir. That's what the testimony was
4 yesterday.
5 A. So it would be simple to know whether December
6 10 was on Monday or not, what year it was. So I know
7 the Sheriff actually -- they're talking about the awards
8 banquet. The Sheriff actually brought the awards
9 banquet back to the Sheriff's Office when he came in and
10 actually funded it the first year. This was '18. Was
11 this '17 or '18?
12 Q. This is '18.
13 A. So this is probably the second year. I can't
14 remember if we did it the first year or the second year.
15 Q. All right. So my question is, though,
16 Exhibit 9 is one-on-one texting between Robert Chody and
17 Brian Johns, correct?
18 A. I know that this says Robert Chody. I can't
19 tell who he's talking to.
20 Q. All right. You heard the testimony yesterday,
21 though, did you not?
22 A. Oh, it says "BJ photos" at the bottom.
23 Q. Right.
24 A. So I guess that's Brian Johns' photos.
25 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of the
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1 degree and extent of the relationship and the
2 communications that occurred between Robert Chody and
3 Brian Johns?
4 A. Only -- the only familiarity I have is that I
5 would see them talking occasionally.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. Our offices are right next to each other.
8 Q. All right. So my question is very specific.
9 Do you have personal knowledge of the degree and extent
10 of the communications and relationship between Robert
11 Chody and Brian Johns?
12 A. No, I do not.
13 Q. All right. Now -- and there was questioning
14 yesterday concerning one of the last notes on there on
15 the last page of where the Sheriff is saying, "What if
16 we team up next year? We can make it successful for all
17 involved," right? On page -- it's Bates 185.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. So as of the date of these texts, the point
20 that was being made yesterday was that Sheriff Chody
21 certainly at least per these texts had no intention of
22 getting rid of Brian Johns in the immediate future?
23 A. Yeah. Well -- yes.
24 Q. And you would agree with that, correct, based
25 on what you know or don't know?
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1 A. You know, the Sheriff doesn't make that -- you
2 said, "getting rid of." I make those decisions on
3 discipline.
4 Q. Yeah. But my question was very specific.
5 Based on these texts, the sheriff, Sheriff Chody, had no
6 intention of Brian not being with the Sheriff's
7 Department as of December 2018?
8 A. I have no knowledge of him not -- is that kind
9 of what you're saying?
10 Q. Do you agree with what I'm saying?
11 A. Yeah. Sounds good.
12 Q. All right. And the -- Brian Johns had been
13 with the department for -- I believe he testified
14 yesterday that he had been there since -- hang on. I
15 need to find my notes where I wrote when he started.
16 Oh, here it is. Brian Johns had been with
17 the Sheriff's Department continuously since December 4,
18 2007, correct?
20 Q. Well, did you hear him testify that he had been
21 with the Sheriff's Department since December 4, 2007,
22 and he had been in CID since 2009?
23 A. I don't remember -- I don't remember that
24 testimony, but I accept that.
25 Q. All right. You don't have any reason to
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1 disagree with that?
2 A. No. And I know there is an evaluation in here
3 dated -- or a commendation dated 2014. So he was at
4 least there at that time.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. But I don't have any knowledge.
7 Q. There was also questioning yesterday about
8 Brian's involvement in the police association, correct?
9 A. Say that again.
10 Q. Do you remember the testimony yesterday about
11 Brian being involved in the police officers'
12 association?
13 A. I know that Brian testified that he was the
14 president of the police officers' association -- or
15 before the deputies' association.
16 Q. Do you think that you are the person at the
17 Sheriff's Department that has the most knowledge of
18 Brian's termination?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was Brian Johns terminated because of his
21 involvement in the police association?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And you understand that Brian Johns would have
24 the right under the Second Amendment, maybe the First
25 Amendment too to -- freedom of association and freedom
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1 of speech and all of those things? I was horrible in
2 constitutional, by the way.
3 A. I'm not a lawyer so ...
4 Q. I'll rephrase. You understand Brian Johns,
5 regardless of whether he's a peace officer or not, has
6 constitutional rights to be involved in a police
7 association?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And in no form or fashion did Williamson County
10 Sheriff's Office retaliate or adversely treat Brian
11 Johns due to his role in the police association; is that
12 true?
13 A. No, we did not.
14 Q. You agree with what I'm saying? It's a very
15 important question. I'll rephrase.
16 A. Rephrase, please.
17 Q. Do you agree that Brian Johns was not
18 retaliated against and was not adversely treated in any
19 form or fashion by Williamson County Sheriff's
20 Department due to his role in the police officer
21 association?
22 A. I agree. He was not.
23 Q. All right. Now, I want to talk about the UTV
24 thing. And by UTV we're talking about Sheriff Chody's
25 Polaris Ranger. Are you familiar with whether or not
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1 Sheriff Chody owns a Polaris Ranger that has his name or
2 the Sheriff's Department logo on it?
3 A. I'm familiar the sheriff has a UTV. I don't
4 know what kind it is. It is a UTV with his name on
5 it -- with the Williamson County Sheriff's Office on it.
6 Q. And it's -- it's his personal vehicle?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. So do you know what the law is
9 regarding whether or not you could take your personal
10 pickup truck into the county and get it worked on?
11 A. I do not.
12 Q. Okay. Do you think that that's against the
13 law?
15 Q. Would you question that?
16 A. I would ask.
17 Q. All right. Would you personally take your
18 vehicle into the county yard and say, "I need my battery
19 replaced. Would you please put a county battery in
20 here"?
21 A. I think if I had received permission to use my
22 personal pickup -- I don't even know if he had a
23 pickup -- but my personal pickup to do work for the
24 county for some extended amount of time or something
25 like that, maybe that would be okay. We get all of that
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1 kind of stuff approved through the auditor's office. So
2 there really are checks and balance on that. So we ask.
3 Q. All right. So do you believe it's lawful
4 without some kind of requisition or authority to have
5 county time and county resources applied to your
6 personal vehicle?
7 A. Again, the same thing. We would get permission
8 from the auditor's office to put --
9 Q. My question was qualified on that. Do you
10 agree with that: Without permission, it would be
11 unlawful for you as a county employee to go get your
12 personal vehicle worked on by county personnel using
13 county property?
14 A. Potentially. Potentially.
15 Q. Is it something you would do without authority
16 or approval?
17 A. I would not do that unless I had the feeling
18 that it was okay to do, right -- or I had been told by
19 somebody that it was okay to do.
20 Q. So you wouldn't necessarily request approval to
21 do it?
22 A. So I would -- with everything, we run it by the
23 auditor.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. And then the auditor signs off or says, "No.
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1 You have to pay for that yourself."
2 Q. So my question was very specific. Would you
3 personally without authority or permission go have your
4 personal vehicle worked on by county personnel with
5 county property?
6 A. I would not.
7 Q. Why?
8 A. I wouldn't even bring my personal vehicle to
9 work for the county.
10 Q. Why?
11 A. Because it's my personal vehicle.
12 Q. What about --
13 A. I don't have an ATV. The Sheriff's Office
14 doesn't have a use for my pickup. I wouldn't bring it.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. The Sheriff's Office has pickups.
17 Q. Well, do you believe that it's appropriate for
18 sheriff office personnel to use sheriff's office
19 property to run personal errands on?
20 A. Repeat that one.
21 Q. Yeah. If you've got a deputy that's got a car,
22 do you think it's appropriate for that deputy to drive
23 50 miles to pick up something and come back on a
24 personal basis?
25 A. So there are times where that's allowed. The
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1 deputies are issued -- are issued take-home vehicles.
2 So there is some latitude on how they're used. That's
3 true.
4 Q. All right. So do all deputies have take-home
5 vehicles?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So it's just policy in the Williamson County
8 Sheriff's Office that sheriff personnel can use Sheriff
9 Department property for personal matters?
10 A. Well, the premise is that all of these
11 troops -- and these are deputies of whatever rank; they
12 are commissioned peace officers -- are subject to recall
13 for a lot of different reasons. And based on that
14 premise, there are occasions where they need to have
15 their vehicle available to them. And if -- so, for
16 example, if a canine team is on call, and they need to
17 run an errand, then they can run that errand using their
18 county vehicle because they are --
19 Q. Let's take a different example then. Let's
20 take a jailer. Is it appropriate for a jailer to go
21 out, get in a county vehicle on county time and run a
22 personal errand?
23 A. Like go to lunch?
24 Q. No. Not go to lunch. Run a personal errand.
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1 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Other than lunch?
2 A. It would depend on the circumstance.
3 Q. Can they use a county vehicle to go, say,
4 20 miles away to pick up an off-duty paycheck?
5 A. If it's within the county, if they were
6 using -- you used the jailer example. The only ones
7 that would be using a county vehicle are transportation
8 folks in the jail. So it would depend on the
9 circumstance whether that was going to be okay or not.
10 Q. It could be inappropriate, though, right?
11 A. It could be.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. It could be. So with most things, if you seek
14 some kind of permission, it's usually the best avenue to
15 take.
16 Q. When was -- when was the first time that you
17 were aware that somebody had reported to the Texas
18 Rangers or county attorney improprieties involving
19 Sheriff Chody's UTV?
20 A. I think I was first aware of that happening
21 when I read Robert McCabe's letter. I think that's when
22 I first became aware.
23 Q. What letter are you referring to?
24 A. It was the letter of appeal on the discipline
25 that I had given Brian Johns.
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1 Q. All right. Let me mark this document to see if
2 we're talking about the same document.
4 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) This is not the right document.
5 I'm going to go ahead and mark it anyway. What is
6 Exhibit 3?
7 A. So Exhibit No. 3 is a letter to the sheriff,
8 Robert Chody, from Dee Hobbs, the county attorney, in
9 regards to a complaint alleging a violation of the Penal
10 Code Section 39.02.
11 Q. And when -- it's dated June 4?
12 A. June 4, 2019.
13 Q. And that's on Bates-stamped 63 and 64. And
14 then you'll see a letter to Robert McCabe dated the same
15 day on Page 65 and then running through Page 68,
16 correct?
17 A. Looks like, yes.
18 Q. All right. Have you seen both of these
19 letters?
20 A. I have. I have seen these letters.
21 Q. And when did you see these?
22 A. I've probably seen them several times.
23 Q. When was the first time you saw them?
24 A. I don't remember the first time I saw them. So
25 I don't remember when the first time I had seen them.
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1 Q. Was it before or after Brian Johns was
2 terminated?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. When was Brian Johns terminated?
5 A. In July of 2019. I think that's correct.
6 Q. So do you know whether Robert Chody saw this
7 letter in June of 2019 or not?
8 A. I don't know. I'm assuming. It was addressed
9 to him.
10 Q. And why are you assuming that just because it
11 was addressed to him that he saw it?
12 A. It doesn't mean he saw it. That's true.
13 Q. Does Sheriff Chody normally see the things that
14 come to the office that are addressed to him?
16 Q. He's the only person that would know that?
17 A. I think maybe his secretarial staff would know
18 that because if things come in via the mail, somebody
19 handles the mail, and then they put the mail in his
20 mailbox so ...
21 Q. So I have a packet of documents. I'm going to
22 mark this. These are documents that were produced by
23 the County.
25 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) I can't tell what it is. It's
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1 a rather thick packet of documents, but can you just
2 kind of skim through that and tell me if that is a file
3 or if that is just random documents that were produced?
4 A. (Witness reads document.) This looks like the
5 investigative file that was submitted as a portion of
6 the investigation that led to Brian Johns -- to me
7 terminating Brian Johns.
8 Q. So did you review this file prior --
9 A. I did.
10 Q. -- to making a decision to terminate Brian
11 Johns?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. And did you -- what information did you review
14 prior to making the decision to terminate Brian Johns?
15 A. So I looked at all of these items that were
16 submitted by his chain of command. His chain of command
17 had conducted an investigation and counseled Brian Johns
18 on his failure to perform, failure to obey their orders,
19 failure to investigate cases, him not treating the
20 citizens appropriately, him not following the direction
21 of a sergeant and how he was to supplement cases and to
22 follow up on cases.
23 Q. Let me ask you this --
24 A. So all of this is kind of components of that.
25 Q. In reviewing Exhibit 5 and in considering the
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1 charges that you just said were brought against Brian
2 Johns, does that seem to be totally inconsistent with
3 his behavior the previous five, ten years while a deputy
4 at Williamson County?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Let's talk then from January 1, '17. Based
7 upon your review of Brian's file and all of the things
8 that you knew in that file, did the actions that began
9 in April of 2019 seem totally inconsistent with his
10 actions that he had displayed since you and Sheriff
11 Chody became sheriff and deputy chief?
12 A. So I'm not aware of his performance on
13 investigating cases back prior to this. So his
14 supervisors, his sergeant and lieutenant that he was
15 assigned to during this time period -- it looks like
16 March -- maybe February, March, April of that year --
17 had a consistent problem with him just not doing his
18 job. And they could not seem to get him to do it for
19 some reason.
20 Q. All right. So --
21 A. So I don't know what caused that behavioral
22 change in him if there was -- or maybe he was always
23 like that. I don't know.
24 Q. Well, let's do it this way. Prior to this time
25 period that we're looking at, spring of 2019, did you
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1 have any indication that during the previous 12 years of
2 Brian being a CID that he had had any performance issues
3 like this?
4 A. I'm not aware at all.
5 Q. And in any of the documents that you've
6 reviewed, do you see any documentation in his
7 evaluations or any of his -- any of the other documents
8 that illustrate that he had a problem like this prior to
9 spring of 2019?
10 A. Not in the documents that you gave me, no.
11 Q. I'll ask it this way: Do you have any evidence
12 that Brian Johns was not following orders and doing his
13 job prior to the spring of 2019?
14 A. Not that I can remember, no.
15 Q. Okay. All right.
16 A. You said number five. This is actually number
17 four.
18 Q. I'm sorry. Number four. Exhibit No. 4, just
19 to clarify the record, is the internal affairs file on
20 Brian Johns, correct?
21 A. For this particular case.
22 Q. And this is the internal affairs investigation
23 that resulted in his termination?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. And it is Exhibit 4?
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1 A. Exhibit 4, yes.
2 Q. All right. Now, yesterday during the
3 deposition, there were some documents brought up; and
4 I'm going to show you Exhibit 4, Exhibit 5, Exhibit 6,
5 Exhibit 7. You can look at those. Those exhibits that
6 I just gave you, which are four, five, six and seven,
7 these were all documents that were used by the county's
8 lawyer to question Brian concerning this behavioral
9 change that occurred in February, March or April 2019.
10 Do you recall that?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And if we look at the dates on these documents,
13 when is the very first time that anybody said anything
14 to Brian Johns about his performance?
15 A. So it looks like the first memo that was
16 generated that went to the lieutenant from the sergeant
17 in reference to Brian Johns and his work on his -- his
18 work performance --
19 Q. That memo is dated?
20 A. May 2, 2019.
21 Q. Well, look at Exhibit 4. What is Exhibit 4?
22 A. So Exhibit 4 looks like it's an email from
23 Lieutenant New to Sergeant Brogden dated April 29 of
24 2019. And it shows that it has documents attached to
25 it.
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1 Q. And so behind that, Bates 1540, is -- looks
2 like a memo from Haston -- or from New to Haston. And
3 it basically documents some performance issue with
4 Detective Johns, correct?
5 A. Okay. Yes.
6 Q. And that date -- that memo is dated April 29,
7 correct?
8 A. Correct -- or the email is.
9 Q. So this memo that Lieutenant New sent to
10 Commander Haston doesn't say the date that he had a
11 conversation with Detective Johns, but can we assume
12 that it was probably sometime in the April time frame?
14 A. I don't know. I'm sure there's something in
15 here that talks about when -- they're talking about
16 March.
17 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Where?
18 A. In this memo dated 5/3, they're talking
19 about --
20 Q. Let me get to it. Hang on a second.
21 What are you looking at that says he was
22 talked to in March?
23 A. So what I'm looking at is the dates that
24 they're talking about these cases.
25 Q. Well, this just says that these were cases that
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1 were assigned to Detective Johns on March 28.
2 A. Right.
3 Q. His first supplement was April 1. So they
4 couldn't have talked to him about a case that he was
5 assigned on March 28 before March 28, could they?
6 A. Roger that. I agree.
7 Q. So can we agree that whatever performance
8 issues were first discussed with Brian Johns had to have
9 occurred sometime in April of 2019?
11 A. It looks --
12 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Would you agree with that,
13 Chief?
14 A. So I think that during that -- during the first
15 half of the year of 2019, no question. I have dates
16 from January 14 of 2019 all the way through May. So the
17 review was of his performance during that time, during
18 that first six months of the calendar year.
19 Q. Okay. But he couldn't have been talked to
20 about a March 28 report until after the March 28 report,
21 correct?
22 A. Correct, absolutely.
23 Q. So even if we go back to January -- and this
24 memo is dated May 3 -- and we look at this Exhibit 4,
25 isn't it most likely that Brian Johns was first talked
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1 to about his performance problems in April of 2019?
3 A. I can't make that assumption.
4 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Well, tell me when he was first
5 talked to.
6 A. I think that if we will look at Sergeant
7 Brogden's information, you can see that they started
8 reviewing his cases all the way back to January, like I
9 said, January of that year. And somewhere along that
10 way, he was talked to about his performance. Sergeant
11 Brogden became his direct supervisor in May -- in May of
12 2019. So Sergeant Brogden was reviewing his performance
13 and his adherence to the rules during that time going
14 all the way back. So I guess he went back and reviewed
15 these cases.
16 Q. So that would have happened in May, right?
17 A. Yes. This memo is dated in May.
18 Q. All right. So the earliest documentation we
19 have that Brian Johns was talked to about a performance
20 issue is this April 29 email attaching an undated memo
21 from New to Haston?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And apparently they reviewed documents from
24 January to May, but there's no documentation that
25 anybody talked to Brian Johns until the April or May
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1 time period?
2 A. Right, not in this.
3 Q. Do you agree with me?
4 A. I agree.
5 Q. All right. Now, and then some of these -- one
6 of these documents say that they -- I mean, is there
7 anything in here that documents a date that somebody sat
8 down and talked to Brian Johns?
9 Okay. Here is one. Look at Exhibit 6.
10 Now let's go to Page 1452.
11 A. So two-thirds of the way down there, you could
12 see where they talked about having a conversation with
13 him on the 26th of April.
14 Q. Right. And then they had another one on the
15 29th, right, of April?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. So that would coincide with that
18 April 29 email?
19 A. The time frame.
20 Q. So based upon the documentation that we have,
21 it appears that the earliest it's documented that Brian
22 Johns was talked to was April 26?
24 A. Based on this, I would agree.
25 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Based on the documentation that
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1 we've been provided -- or that you've been provided?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know of anytime prior to April 26 that
4 Brian's sergeant sat down and talked to him about his
5 performance?
6 A. I do not.
7 Q. And Sergeant Brogden did not become Brian's
8 sergeant until May of 2019?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. So he would not have sat down with Brian prior
11 to May of 2019?
12 A. Wasn't assigned to the same area probably.
13 Q. So the earliest Brogden could have talked to
14 him as his sergeant would have been May of 2019, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. According to this.
18 Q. Now -- and are you aware of any other documents
19 in the Sheriff's Department files that document any
20 counseling history with Brian Johns other than the ones
21 that we've seen here today?
22 A. I'm not aware of any.
23 Q. And would that have come up during the internal
24 affairs investigation?
25 A. It would have. It would have.
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1 Q. It should have, right --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- if it was a thorough investigation, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So any counseling history that Brian Johns had
6 should be in that packet marked as Exhibit No. 4?
7 A. If this is complete, yes.
8 Q. If it's complete. And you wouldn't terminate
9 somebody on an incomplete internal affairs
10 investigation, would you?
11 A. I would not.
12 Q. Sir?
13 A. I would not.
14 Q. All right. Now, let's talk about the
15 disposition of stolen vehicle issue. When did you
16 decide that there were going to be no more hearings for
17 disposition of stolen vehicles?
18 A. I don't believe I ever made that decision.
19 Q. Who made that decision?
20 A. I don't think it was made.
21 Q. All right. Why was -- why would Brian Johns be
22 under the impression that he was told there would be no
23 more disposition of stolen vehicle hearings?
24 A. I have no idea why he would say that.
25 Q. That would -- you don't agree with that?
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1 A. I don't know why he would make that kind of
2 blanket statement.
3 Q. All right. Do you believe that it's the -- the
4 law requires for the Sheriff's Department to have
5 hearings to dispose of recovered stolen property?
6 A. We do it all the time.
7 Q. Yeah. But my question is, do you believe the
8 law requires it?
9 A. So if we're going to dispose of any evidence,
10 any property that we come into possession of, we have to
11 have a hearing.
12 Q. By law?
13 A. By law.
14 Q. Is that the code of criminal procedure?
15 A. I'd have to find it. It's in the property code
16 somewhere. So I'd have to find it.
17 Q. So it would be an illegal order if somebody --
18 hypothetically, if somebody ordered Brian Johns to not
19 have disposition hearings on getting rid of any
20 evidence?
21 A. Well, no. I would not agree with that. So it
22 would be -- it would be an illegal order if we did not
23 conduct proper hearings as required by the law. It
24 doesn't matter -- it doesn't necessarily matter who does
25 them. Well, it does matter who does them. It doesn't
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1 matter who gets assigned to them.
2 Q. Well, I'm not being that specific. It would be
3 an illegal order if somebody from the Sheriff's
4 Department ordered Brian to dispose of recovered stolen
5 vehicles without a hearing?
6 A. Absolutely -- or anybody else, not just Brian.
7 Q. Well, I know, but I'm talking about Brian.
8 A. Okay. And we're talking about property that
9 doesn't belong to the county?
10 Q. Correct.
11 Do you remember signing a verification
12 page for answers to interrogatories?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You know what interrogatories are?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. And so I've got some that were sent to me
17 recently on May 27. It looks like that you swore to
18 these in front of Stala H. Hall?
19 A. Starla.
20 Q. Who is that?
21 A. One of our admin clerks.
22 Q. On May 27?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. I have a couple of questions about those.
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. In these interrogatories -- and you know these
2 are under oath just like we are here today, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Interrogatory No. 1 says, "Please state each
5 and every reason you terminated plaintiff." That would
6 be Brian Johns.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Do you understand that question?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Is there anything about that question that is
11 overly broad, vague or general?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you believe there's anything in that
14 question that is a fishing expedition?
15 MR. KRONE: Objection, form. You can
16 answer.
17 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Let me ask it this way. Is it
18 clear to you what I'm asking when I say, "Please tell me
19 every reason you terminated Brian Johns"?
20 A. I think it is, yes.
21 Q. And you wouldn't say, "What do you mean by
22 that," would you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. Let's go through your answer.
25 "Plaintiff was terminated for failing to obey orders
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1 from his supervisor in violation of Williamson County
2 office policy and willfully neglecting his duties in
3 violation of Williamson County office policy." Is that
4 accurate?
5 A. That's accurate.
6 Q. All right. So what orders did Brian Johns fail
7 to obey?
8 A. All through this stack, he failed to obey his
9 orders to supplement reports timely, failed to obey
10 orders to follow up on investigations during cases. He
11 failed to go and pick up items that his sergeant told
12 him to go and do. So there's a series of events that
13 happened in that first six months of that year where
14 Brian Johns failed to obey -- failed to do his job and
15 failed to obey those orders by his supervisor.
16 Q. Okay. So what I want to know is, are you
17 saying here that Brian Johns failed to follow a direct
18 order from a supervisor or he failed to follow policies
19 that direct him to do things or both?
20 A. Both.
21 Q. All right. What specific order from a
22 supervisor did he fail to follow?
23 A. His supervisor told him to supplement reports.
24 He failed to accomplish that. This is --
25 Q. All right. Let's talk about that.
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. We agreed earlier that 100 percent compliance
3 with policies was not practical, did we not?
4 A. Give me the context of that.
5 Q. Well, the context in which I asked it.
6 A. Okay. What was that?
7 Q. Is it possible to comply with every policy on
8 every occasion? And you said, "No," I think.
9 I said, "Does the Sheriff's Department
10 expect 100 percent compliance at all times with the
11 policies?" And your response was?
12 A. We absolutely expect it, yes.
13 Q. But it's not realistic, is it?
14 A. Sometimes it's -- sometimes it's difficult.
15 Q. All right. It's not -- is it possible to
16 follow every policy in that policy manual every day that
17 every officer works?
18 A. I think it is, yes.
19 Q. So basically anytime -- there's no reason for a
20 policy to be violated under any circumstances?
21 A. I would not agree with that.
22 Q. Well, how do those things -- how do you
23 reconcile those two statements?
24 A. So when you apply -- when you apply the
25 practical application of the policy, there are going to
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1 be circumstances that may be beyond your control that
2 would cause you to not fall within the parameters of the
3 policy.
4 Q. Okay. So it's -- it may be the goal to have
5 every policy followed 100 percent of the time, but
6 that's not a realistic expectation?
7 A. No, it's the policy. It's the policy.
8 Now, if you don't do it, there may -- the
9 ramifications of that are going to vary.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. But you've got to do it. It's policy.
12 Q. Let me make sure I understand. Sheriff Chody
13 expects 100 percent absolute compliance with his
14 policies at all times?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And -- but there may be times that policy can't
17 be followed because of the circumstances?
18 A. Could be.
20 A. Could be, yes.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. They still have to be followed, though.
23 Q. Sorry?
24 A. If you don't follow them, there are
25 consequences.
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1 Q. All right. I think that's fair. Does it apply
2 to everybody or just patrol officers?
3 A. Everybody.
4 Q. It applies to you too?
5 A. It does.
6 Q. And the Sheriff?
7 A. And the Sheriff.
8 Q. The Sheriff has to follow his policies?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. 100 percent of the time expected?
11 A. Expected, yes.
12 Q. All right. So can you give me today as we sit
13 here the specific orders from his supervisor that he
14 failed to follow?
15 A. I would have to research and look at it. I can
16 look through this. So his -- he failed to supplement
17 the --
18 Q. You said he failed to supplement his reports?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did you take into account the number of
21 cases he had and the time and resources?
22 A. So when you say, "did I," when I reviewed this
23 case that came to me? Is that when you're talking
24 about?
25 Q. Yeah.
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1 A. Or when they actually talked to him about that?
2 Q. No. You fired him, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you take into account --
5 A. I did.
6 Q. Caseload doesn't tell the whole story, does it,
7 about how much work a deputy has and CID?
8 A. It is a management tool.
9 Q. Because some cases can be solved in five
10 minutes, and some may never be solved. Each case has
11 its own degree of complexity and need for certain
12 resources. Fair?
13 A. Fair.
14 Q. So you could have five cases and take up all
15 your time, or you could have 25 cases and have room to
16 do more depending on the case?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. That's the supervisor's responsibility to know
20 that, know the caseloads of the different detectives and
21 to allocate those caseloads according to that kind of
22 complexity that you're talking about.
23 Q. And did you evaluate that on Brian Johns' case?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So what was it about his caseload that didn't
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1 justify the 30-day supplementation rule having an
2 exception?
3 A. So there was no justification for not
4 supplementing reports.
5 Q. What justification could there have been?
6 A. There was none.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. So I don't -- so what could there have been,
9 would -- I'd have to speculate on something.
10 Q. Well, let me ask you this --
11 A. It could have been --
12 Q. How many hours is he expected to work a day?
13 A. They work -- they work 2,080 hours a year. So
14 I don't know what shift he was working. I don't know if
15 he was on a ten-hour shift. I don't know. But
16 essentially, they work during the day during the week,
17 and then they're on call after that.
18 Q. Can you envision a scenario where Brian Johns
19 had too many cases or too many cases with complexity to
20 get all of his work done in his allotted time per day?
21 Can you even envision that?
22 A. So I cannot envision a -- not just Brian
23 Johns -- any detective not being able to accomplish the
24 requirements of working the case and keeping it
25 supplemented as required by the rules.
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1 Q. So there would be no defense to that
2 allegation?
3 A. No. I mean, it could be that they got sick;
4 they went home. There would be those kind of defenses,
5 but if you were there at work, you were required to do a
6 supplement within a specific amount of time on whatever
7 caseload you had. Then unless there was a unique event
8 that happened, then there would be no reason why that
9 would be okay.
10 Q. And whose job was it --
11 A. That's for every detective.
12 Q. In Brian's case, whose job was it to determine
13 his caseload and whether or not he had a reasonable
14 opportunity to meet the expectations of the department?
15 A. His immediate chain.
16 Q. Who would that be?
17 A. Sergeant Brogden, Lieutenant New and ultimately
18 Commander Haston.
19 Q. Are they still at the Sheriff's Department?
20 A. Sergeant Brogden retired. The others are all
21 there.
22 Q. All right. Do you know where he lives?
23 A. I do not.
24 Q. All right. The next interrogatory said,
25 "Please state who made the decision to terminate
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1 plaintiff from employment with you." You understand
2 that question, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Who made the decision to terminate
5 Brian Johns from employment with Williamson County
6 Sheriff's Office?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Well, what your answer says is "The decision to
9 take action on the behavior of an employee including
10 plaintiff is a process that involves a review and
11 recommendation from the employee's chain of command and
12 forwarded it up through the chain to the chief deputy.
13 The chief deputy has authority from the sheriff to take
14 action on all violations that put the safety of the
15 public or the integrity of the organization and criminal
16 investigations at risk."
18 Q. Do you agree with that?
19 A. I do agree with that.
20 Q. So if the Sheriff has the ultimate right to
21 make the decision and he's delegated that to you, you
22 are in effect making that decision on his behalf; isn't
23 that true?
24 A. I'm -- that's my responsibility so ...
25 Q. By and through the sheriff?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you know the allegations in this case from
3 our perspective are that Brian reported a couple of
4 allegations to the Texas Rangers involving what he
5 considered to be a violation of law of the Sheriff and
6 that he was terminated for those reasons? You
7 understand those are our allegations?
8 A. I understand that's what you're saying, yes.
9 Q. All right. And you know that Robert McCabe
10 acting as counsel for plaintiff approached the first
11 assistant county attorney, Brandon Dakroub, and
12 indicated that he had a complaint against the Sheriff.
13 You know that, right?
14 A. I read that.
15 Q. Where did you read that?
16 A. On one of these things or maybe it was -- I
17 can't remember where I read this. But that name, I
18 don't know how to pronounce that name either. I read
19 that name somewhere.
20 Q. Do you have -- well, do you know when the first
21 time is that you learned or read that Brian Johns or his
22 attorney had made a complaint to a law enforcement
23 agency that Sheriff Chody had violated the law?
24 A. When Robert McCabe made that statement.
25 Q. And when was that?
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1 A. There's a letter somewhere. I don't know what
2 the date is, but there's a letter somewhere that Robert
3 McCabe wrote.
4 Q. Let me mark -- let me mark as Exhibit 5 a
5 letter from Robert McCabe and see if this is the letter
6 that you're referring to.
8 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) This consists of -- this has
9 been produced. It looks like it is Defendant's Bates 69
10 through 72. Have you seen that letter before?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that the letter you were referring to?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that the first time that you had heard any
15 allegation that Brian Johns had reported Sheriff Chody
16 to law enforcement?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. So what's the date of that letter?
19 A. July 7, 2019.
20 Q. And where is that in the stage of things of
21 Brian's termination?
22 A. Brian was terminated on July 3 of 2019.
23 Q. And what is the purpose of this letter?
24 A. This letter references appeal termination of
25 Detective Brian Johns imposed July 3, 2019, and it has
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1 an LPS number. LPS is our internal affairs number.
2 Q. Who is it addressed to?
3 A. Sheriff Robert Chody from Robert McCabe.
4 Q. Do you know whether Sheriff Chody ever saw that
5 letter?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. If it was addressed to him and mailed to him,
8 should he have seen that letter?
9 A. This was -- this would be emailed to his
10 assistant Kathy Meyer and him. So he saw -- so it came
11 in to his email. So he should have seen it, yes.
12 Q. All right. So he was aware of all of the
13 circumstances that are outlined in that letter at least
14 according to what the email says?
16 A. He's aware of this letter?
17 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Let me rephrase. If Sheriff
18 Chody read the email to him, then he would be -- he
19 would have been aware of the things that are contained
20 within Robert McCabe's letter?
21 A. That makes sense, yes.
22 Q. And this letter was sent after you terminated
23 Brian Johns in an attempt to invoke the appeal process
24 that we talked about earlier?
25 A. Yes. It's titled "appeal -- appeal of
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1 termination."
2 Q. What was the response of Sheriff Chody to that
3 appeal?
4 A. I don't see a response here.
5 Q. What does that mean?
6 A. It means I don't see a response.
7 Q. Do you know whether he -- do you know whether
8 he made any decision on the appeal or not?
9 A. So the Sheriff decides whether or not he's
10 going to hear an appeal according to policy. He makes
11 the decision whether or not he'll hear that. And then
12 if he decides to hear an appeal, then an appeal happens.
13 If not, it doesn't happen.
14 Q. Okay. So what happened -- what happens by
15 process and what happened in this case is Brian Johns
16 was terminated. His lawyer sent an appeal letter to the
17 Sheriff. The Sheriff made a decision that he was not
18 going to hear the appeal, and the appeal wasn't heard?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Is that fair?
21 A. Sounds fair.
22 Q. So in order for him to make a decision about
23 whether or not he's going to hear an appeal or not, he
24 would have to at least see the appeal?
25 A. He would have to know -- he would have to
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1 know -- well, he saw -- I'm assuming that he saw this
2 letter, right, that we talked about -- that Robert
3 McCabe sent. And then he would have to know that the
4 appeal was within the policy on whether it was an appeal
5 or not. And he would make that decision based on policy
6 whether or not he would hear an appeal. And so I'm --
7 that would be the logical sequence of events.
8 Q. Do you know why he did not hear this appeal?
9 A. I assume that it's --
10 Q. No, no, no. My question is, do you have
11 personal knowledge?
12 A. I do not; I do not.
13 Q. Let me ask a complete question. Do you have
14 personal knowledge of why Sheriff Chody chose not to
15 hear the appeal of Brian Johns?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And if the process was followed and if Sheriff
18 Chody had heard the appeal of Brian Johns, then he had
19 the right to overrule your decision?
20 A. If -- if he decided to go outside of policy, if
21 the Sheriff decided to go outside of policy and hear an
22 appeal on a termination, then he clearly -- your
23 question was did he have the authority to overturn my
24 decision?
25 Q. Yeah.
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1 A. Yes. If he decided to go outside of policy and
2 hear an appeal on termination, then clearly he has the
3 right to also overturn my decision.
4 Q. All right. So you're saying that Sheriff Chody
5 would have violated policy if he had heard this appeal?
6 A. He would have had to make a decision to go away
7 from policy, his policy in order to hear this appeal on
8 a termination.
9 Q. What policy says that the sheriff -- I thought
10 you said earlier that it was part of the policy for the
11 IA to happen, you to make the decision and the affected
12 employee to appeal to the sheriff?
13 A. Within the grievance policy, yes.
14 Q. Yeah. Okay. So --
15 A. So if it's not and it is grievable, then they
16 can file an appeal, and the sheriff can terminate
17 whether or not that he's going to hear that appeal or
18 not.
19 Q. Is a termination grievable?
20 A. It is not.
21 Q. What policy says that?
22 A. The grievance policy.
23 Q. Do you know what policy that is?
24 A. I may be able to pull it up. Do you want me to
25 try?
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1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. Okay. It's going to be a little slow on my
3 phone here.
4 Q. Is it called --
5 A. You look at the grievance policy.
6 Q. Is it called "disposition of a serious
7 complaint"? Is that part of the grievance policy?
8 A. It should be the grievance policy.
9 It's not working. I can access our
10 policies normally on my phone, but I can't access it.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Our policy specifically says that terminations
13 are not grievable.
14 Q. Terminations are not appealable?
15 A. Grievable, yes.
16 Q. Grievable. Are they appealable?
17 A. With a grievance, you have to file the
18 grievance policy to submit an appeal.
19 Q. Okay. So are terminations appealable?
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right. I'm looking at defendant's
22 Bates-stamped 1276.
23 MR. MOORE: Can you get us a clean copy of
24 that so he can look at it? because mine has notes on it.
25 MR. KRONE: A copy of what?
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1 MR. MOORE: Your Bates-stamped No. 12 --
2 there are 12 -- it's 1276 and 1277.
3 MR. KRONE: May I see the page?
4 MR. MOORE: Do you want to take a break?
5 MR. KRONE: We can. I can see if I can
6 pull it up.
7 MR. MOORE: I know somebody in this big
8 downtown office building with all of these people that
9 can pull up a --
10 MR. KRONE: We have different servers.
11 I'm in the --
12 MR. MOORE: The old different server
13 story.
14 MR. KRONE: If you wanted to use that as
15 an exhibit, you could have brought it with you. It
16 would have made it easier, wouldn't it?
17 MR. MOORE: Yeah. It would have, but I
18 thought he was going to admit that the policy that I see
19 existed. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised of stuff
20 I learn.
21 MR. KRONE: So is this the policy you
22 want?
23 MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
24 MR. KRONE: But you have it right here.
25 Is this not -- I'm confused on what you're asking.
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1 MR. McCABE: I've written on it. I have
2 written a number on the margin. I just wrote 2.6 on it.
3 You can mark it out.
4 MR. MOORE: Can we use that, Robert?
5 MR. McCABE: It's got literally one word
6 highlighted. It doesn't have any handwriting on it.
7 MR. KRONE: That's fine.
8 MR. MOORE: Let me see that then.
9 All right. We're going to mark this as
10 Exhibit 6.
12 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Do you know what Exhibit 6 is?
13 A. It looks like Exhibit 6 is a portion of a
14 policy.
15 Q. Have you ever seen that policy before? It
16 looks like it's number 2.6 at the bottom of the page.
17 A. That's what it looks like.
18 Q. And if we look at Page 1276, it says on part G,
19 "Terminations may be made in cases of rule violations,"
20 and then it says, "Employees may appeal a dismissal
21 within five days of receipt of notice and may appeal in
22 accordance with the procedure outlined under Policy
23 4.7." So this policy --
24 A. So where are you reading that exactly? Say
25 that again.
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1 Q. Do you see Page 1276?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Do you see the Letter G?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Do you see why it says "termination"?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Read with me. Number one, "Terminations may be
8 made in cases of rule violations." Number two,
9 "Employees may appeal a dismissal within five calendar
10 days of receipt of notice and may appeal in accordance
11 with the procedures outlined under policy 4.7."
12 A. Right. So let's go to Policy 4.7.
13 Q. Okay. Where is it? I don't have it.
14 A. I can see if somebody will send it to me. So
15 every --
16 Q. Well, we can assume the policy was followed or
17 we cannot assume. It doesn't matter, but the bottom
18 line is terminations are appealable?
19 A. Not by policy.
20 Q. Does that not say terminations are appealable?
21 A. It says follow Policy 4.7.
22 Q. Yeah. But does this document not say
23 terminations are appealable?
24 A. That's what it says: "May appeal in accordance
25 with the procedure outlined in Policy 4.7."
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1 Q. So what that says is you can appeal a
2 termination. You just have to follow the procedure
3 that's set out in 4.7?
4 A. So 4.7 is where we go to next to look at what
5 next to do.
6 MR. MOORE: Then let's take a break
7 because I can pull that up, but it's going to take me a
8 while to do that.
9 (Brief recess: 12:48 p.m. to 1:09 p.m.)
11 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) All right. So let me show you
12 what's been marked as 4.7. And what I want you to do
13 is, I want you to look at Page 2 of 3. Do you see that
14 section down there, Roman Numeral VI, that's entitled
15 "procedures"?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. All right. So if we look at the -- in the
18 policy manual, which, by the way these are the Texas
19 Best Practices, right?
20 A. Right, correct.
21 Q. That's what these are based off of?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And so there is a specific section for
24 discipline, and then there's another section for
25 grievances, right?
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Do you agree with that?
3 A. I have to look at them.
4 Q. Well, because this one is 2.6, and grievance is
5 4.7.
6 A. Nowadays, none of them have numbers on them.
7 Go ahead.
8 Q. But you would agree with that, right?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. That they're separate?
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. So if we look at what I showed you previously
13 in Exhibit 6, that says on the third page -- sorry.
14 It's Page 5, but it's Bates 1276. It says, "Employees
15 may appeal a dismissal within five calendar days of
16 receipt of notice and may appeal in accordance with the
17 procedures outlined in 4.7," correct?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. So this document right here, this 2.6 says
20 terminations may be appealed, correct?
21 A. Is this the one you handed me?
22 Q. Yes, sir. On the last page -- or second to the
23 last page.
24 A. Did you say second to the last page? Where do
25 you see that?
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1 Q. I'll show it to you. I'll find it for you.
2 Oh, it's on the first page of this one. Sorry. It's
3 right there under Subpart G. Do you see G?
4 A. So "Employees may appeal a dismissal within
5 five calendar days of receipt of notice and may appeal
6 in accordance with the procedure outlined in Policy
7 4.7."
8 Q. You see that, right?
9 A. Yes. I see it.
10 Q. So let's dissect that.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Number one, this document, Exhibit 6 is a
13 policy of the Sheriff's Department dealing with
14 discipline, 2.6, right?
15 A. Okay.
17 A. This is a piece of the policy.
18 Q. For discipline?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. And under discipline, it talks
21 about termination; and under Subpart G, it says,
22 "Employees may appeal a dismissal within five calendar
23 days of receipt of notice."
24 A. "In accordance with the procedure outlined in
25 policy 4.7."
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1 Q. Right. We're going to dissect it, though.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Number one, there is a policy for termination,
4 correct?
5 A. So it says -- are you talking about here?
6 Q. There's a policy for disciplinary termination,
7 right? A specific policy for disciplinary termination.
8 A. Yeah. One of the disciplinary actions can be
9 termination.
10 Q. Right. Do you agree with me?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then when we go to one of the possible
13 disciplinary actions, which is termination --
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. -- it says that when terminations --
16 "terminations may be made in cases of rule violations,"
17 right?
18 A. Okay. Yes. That's what it says.
19 Q. And then it says that an employee may appeal a
20 dismissal, right?
21 A. Uh-huh. In accordance with the policy.
22 Q. Hang on. I want you to just go with me here.
23 Does it say -- I'm going to break it down. Does it say
24 employees may appeal a dismissal?
25 A. In accordance with the policy.
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2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That appeal must occur -- of a dismissal must
4 occur within five calendar days of the receipt of
5 notice?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the appeal has to happen in accordance with
10 the procedure outlined in 4.7?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So if we go to 4.7 which is Exhibit 7 --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- there is a specific procedure that applies
15 to grievances?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that procedure says how the physical
18 process of the appeal occurs, correct?
19 A. It does.
20 Q. All right. So if we look at these policies, do
21 you agree that an employee has a right to appeal a
22 disciplinary termination?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And why not?
25 A. Because if you go to the same policy under
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1 grievances, it says what is grievable. And it says, "A
2 grievance is a complaint or a dispute" -- I'm sorry.
3 THE REPORTER: Please speak up.
4 A. I'm sorry. "A grievance is a complaint or
5 dispute from an employee related to employment including
6 but not limited to the following: Disciplinary actions
7 other than termination, whether resulting from formal
8 discipline, unsatisfactory job performance or any other
9 involuntarily separation, demotions and suspensions."
10 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) All right.
11 A. So it says, "other than terminations whether
12 resulting from formal discipline, unsatisfactory job
13 performance or any other involuntary separation." So
14 that is under what's grievable.
15 Q. All right. So doesn't that say that if you're
16 going to -- that you can't grieve a termination but you
17 can appeal a termination?
18 A. It's semantics.
19 Q. Well, do you agree that's what it says? You
20 can't grieve a termination under the grievance policy,
21 but you can appeal a termination under the discipline
22 policy?
23 A. So --
24 Q. You just have to follow the grievance
25 procedures? Doesn't that make sense?
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1 A. It does.
2 Q. All right. And didn't you testify earlier that
3 the Sheriff has the final decision on appeals?
4 A. Based on the policy. Now he can choose to
5 disregard policy if he likes, but based on the policy --
6 he would have to choose to disregard the policy in order
7 to hear an appeal on a termination.
8 MR. MOORE: Nonresponsive.
9 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Did you say earlier, quote, the
10 Sheriff has the right -- if an appeal is filed, the
11 employee has -- the Sheriff has the final decision?
12 A. I'd have to go back and see.
13 Q. Do you disagree with that?
14 A. Say that one more time.
15 Q. If an appeal is filed, the Sheriff has the
16 final decision. Do you disagree with that now?
17 A. If an appeal is filed within policy, then the
18 Sheriff makes the final decision on whether to hear an
19 appeal.
20 Q. Okay. And you're saying that no employee of
21 Williamson County Sheriff's Office has a right to appeal
22 a termination?
23 A. That's correct. The grievance procedure does
24 not allow an appeal. A termination is not grievable.
25 The Sheriff can make a decision on whether or not he's
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1 going to hear an appeal and deviate from the policy or
2 not.
3 Q. And that's his ultimate decision, right?
4 A. Whether he's going to hear an appeal?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. It's his decision, yes, whether he's going to
7 deviate from policy.
8 Q. So Sheriff Chody could -- under your testimony
9 could grant the appeal, deviate from policy or not do
10 so?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And -- okay. So that's his sole decision,
13 whether he does that or not?
14 A. Every policy is his decision.
15 Q. All right. And is there anything in writing
16 that says why Sheriff Chody chose not to hear the appeal
17 of Brian Johns?
19 Q. I guess we'll have to ask Sheriff Chody then.
20 I do have a couple of other questions. We
21 are getting close to being done.
22 Do you know of any other deputies who are
23 having their caseload and their files audited like was
24 happening to Brian Johns?
25 MR. KRONE: Objection, form. Go ahead.
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1 A. All detectives get their caseloads monitored
2 regularly by their chain of command.
3 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) Do you know why Brian Johns'
4 supervisor was changed in May of 2019?
5 A. I do not.
6 Q. Who made that decision?
7 A. Somebody in his chain of command.
8 Q. You don't know who?
9 A. I do not.
10 Q. Does Sheriff Chody have the final say on who is
11 staffed at which sergeant position?
12 A. No. He doesn't get involved in that.
13 Q. No. Does he have the final say?
14 A. No, he doesn't get involved.
15 Q. Does he have the authority to have the final
16 say?
17 A. He's the sheriff.
18 Q. Do you know whether Sheriff Chody had anything
19 to do with Sergeant Brogden being assigned as Brian
20 Johns' supervisor?
22 Q. Since Brian Johns has departed from Williamson
23 County Sheriff's Office, have you had any conversation
24 with anybody in any other police agency about him?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Who have you talked to?
2 A. Greg Minton.
3 Q. Who is Greg Minton?
4 A. He's the chief of police at Leander PD.
5 Q. And when did this conversation occur?
6 A. Sometime earlier this year.
7 Q. What -- okay. It's May, end of May. When do
8 you think it may have been?
9 A. I do not know.
10 Q. But it's between January and May?
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. And what was said in this conversation?
13 A. So I asked if he -- if they were considering
14 hiring Brian Johns, and he said yes, that he was in the
15 process. And I asked if they had conducted -- if they
16 had reviewed his internal affairs files. And he said
17 his background investigators were checking into it, and
18 they would make a recommendation to him based off of
19 that.
20 Q. Did you say anything to Chief Minton that was
21 negative of Brian Johns?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you --
24 A. Other than he needed to check his background.
25 Q. Why would you say that?
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1 A. Because he needs to check his background. It's
2 actually a TCOLE requirement.
3 Q. For you as his former chief to tell the other
4 chief to do his job is a TCOLE requirement?
5 A. No. To check the background is a TCOLE
6 requirement.
7 Q. Did you have any indication that Leander PD was
8 going to violate TCOLE regulations and not check
9 Brian --
10 A. I did not.
11 Q. Hang on. And not check Brian Johns' personal
12 background?
13 A. I did not.
14 Q. But you took it upon yourself to go tell the
15 Leander chief that he needed to make sure he checked
16 Brian Johns' background?
17 A. Exactly.
18 Q. And the intent of that was to have this chief
19 question whether he should hire Brian Johns; isn't that
20 true?
21 A. The intent was for him to have a thorough
22 knowledge of everybody.
23 Q. Was your intent in telling him that so that he
24 would see negative things and not hire Brian Johns?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You didn't have an opinion one way or the
2 other --
3 A. No.
4 Q. Hang on -- whether he should or should not hire
5 Brian Johns?
6 A. No, I don't have an opinion. It's his agency.
7 Q. And you weren't trying to influence him in any
8 way by talking to him?
9 A. No. He's a friend of mine. So it's very
10 common for us to call each other about employees.
11 Q. You and Greg Minton are friends?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And if I ask Greg Minton about that
14 conversation -- or if I have asked him, do you think he
15 would have said the same thing?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The IA packet that we have marked as Exhibit 4,
18 did you personally handle that IA on Brian Johns?
19 A. I did.
20 Q. Why did you personally handle the internal
21 affairs investigation on him instead of letting the
22 sergeant or lieutenant do it?
23 A. I don't remember exactly on this one. I think
24 that -- what I know is that we've had transition in
25 internal affairs. We had people leave; we had new
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1 people come in, new investigators. So occasionally, I
2 will have to take care of a case, and I'm assuming
3 that's part of the reason I got this one.
4 Q. Okay. So who was the sergeant and lieutenant
5 in internal affairs at that time?
6 A. I'm not sure we had a sergeant. Well, no. I
7 think David Lothorp was the sergeant at that time. He
8 later got promoted to lieutenant.
9 Q. How long had he been in IA?
10 A. Not long.
11 Q. Was he not competent to do the investigation
12 himself?
13 A. He had been through the training. He had done
14 some investigations. I don't know if he was here. I
15 really don't know the reason I got it.
16 Q. Well, I want to make sure that the reason you
17 did it wasn't because the people that were in there
18 weren't qualified to do it. Were the people you had --
19 A. Oh, they're --
20 Q. Hang on. Were the people that Sheriff Chody
21 had running the internal affairs department during Brian
22 Johns' IA investigation competent to do their job?
23 A. They were.
24 Q. So that wasn't why you did it, was because they
25 were incompetent?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. All right. So you did it for some other
3 reason?
4 A. So I don't recall what the reason was, but yes,
5 some reason. Some reason I got it.
6 Q. It had nothing to do with Brian Johns'
7 reporting Sheriff Chody to the DA or the Texas Rangers?
8 A. I wasn't even aware of it.
9 Q. All right. Who is Dee Hobbs?
10 A. He is the county attorney.
11 Q. Is it a he?
12 A. It is a he. Yes.
13 Q. All right. So do you know Dee Hobbs?
14 A. I know him.
15 Q. Do you talk to him?
16 A. Occasionally.
17 Q. Do you know if he and Robert Chody are friends?
19 Q. Do you know what the degree and extent of their
20 professional relationship is?
21 A. I would say it's probably similar to me and
22 many chiefs around. You know, it's a professional
23 relationship. We call ourselves friends probably, but I
24 mean, it's not like we share Thanksgiving dinners.
25 Q. All right. How did you become aware that there
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1 was an IA -- an internal affairs investigation on Brian
2 Johns?
3 A. So what happened was the complaint came up
4 through the chain of command.
5 Q. From who? Who initiated the complaint?
6 A. His sergeant initiated the complaint to the
7 lieutenant. It made it all the way through the chain to
8 the commander, and then it came to me.
9 Q. And did you assign yourself to do the --
10 A. I'm assuming I did. I don't --
11 Q. Do you know for sure?
12 A. I don't remember. It would have been me
13 assigning myself for one of those reasons I described
14 earlier.
15 Q. Could it have been Robert Chody assigned you to
16 do the internal affairs?
17 A. He doesn't do assignments like that. So he --
18 Q. Hang on. That's not even possible? It's not
19 even a possibility that the sheriff told you to
20 personally handle Brian Johns' internal affairs?
21 A. No, it's not. So the Sheriff delegated that
22 responsibility to me some time back. Generally, I will
23 take over an internal affairs case if it involves a
24 commander because there's only lieutenant level in
25 internal affairs or if one of the internal affairs'
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1 people is not available during the time frame or for
2 whatever reason so ...
3 Q. How long did this internal affairs
4 investigation take?
5 A. This -- the work that the chain of command had
6 done was pretty significant. Right off the bat, Brian
7 Johns had admitted that he hadn't followed the orders.
8 So the investigation was pretty straightforward. The
9 allegation was there. He admitted he did it, and so
10 there wasn't much else to do.
11 MR. MOORE: Nonresponsive.
12 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) My question was, how long did
13 this internal affairs investigation take?
14 A. I guess about a month and a half or two months
15 when they started on this. And then I had it for a
16 couple of days.
17 Q. And during the -- internal affairs -- we talked
18 about this earlier. Refresh my memory. The internal
19 affairs sergeant reports to the lieutenant. The
20 lieutenant reports directly to the sheriff?
21 A. To me. Directly to me.
22 Q. I thought you said -- for some reason I thought
23 that the internal affairs -- the internal affairs
24 reported directly to the sheriff. Is that not right?
25 A. Huh-uh. Reports strictly to me.
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1 Q. All right. So do you recall the lieutenant or
2 the sergeant in internal affairs during the month and a
3 half before it got to you ever mentioning the
4 investigation to you?
5 A. No. At that time it was at the chain of
6 command level within that same division.
7 Q. My question --
8 A. It wasn't even at internal affairs.
9 Q. Okay. So did you have any knowledge that Brian
10 Johns was being investigated by his chain of command or
11 internal affairs before it came to your desk?
12 A. I don't know if I had been given a heads-up on
13 it or not.
14 Q. What do you think probably happened?
15 A. I don't know. You know, it just depends on how
16 busy things are whether or not I get briefed on --
17 things happen where it doesn't get to me unless it's
18 ready.
19 Q. And did you have any conversations with Sheriff
20 Chody about Brian Johns at any time between the date
21 that he was terminated and January 1 of '19?
22 MR. KRONE: You mean January 1, 2020? He
23 was terminated July of '19.
24 Q. (BY MR. MOORE) No. January of '19. So he was
25 fired in July of '19. During that time period, did
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1 you --
2 A. Between January and July?
3 Q. Yeah. Did you --
4 A. Repeat the question.
5 Q. Did you talk to Sheriff Chody about Brian Johns
6 at any time between January of 2019 and the date he was
7 fired?
8 A. I have no idea.
9 Q. Could have happened?
10 A. Only in reference to this, or in reference to
11 just --
12 Q. Anything.
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. In reference to the internal affairs?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You -- you're positive?
17 A. I am positive. We purposely do not have those
18 conversations.
19 Q. And why is that?
20 A. So if he decides to hear an appeal, then he can
21 hear that appeal objectively like we talked about.
22 Q. Right. So if he in his discretion decided to
23 hear an appeal, he would want to make sure that he was
24 not biased at that time?
25 A. Yes.
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1 MR. MOORE: Let's take a break and give me
2 just a few minutes, and then I think we're just about
3 done.
4 (Brief recess: 1:30 p.m. to 1:35 p.m.)
5 MR. MOORE: No further questions.
6 MR. KRONE: Reserve for trial.
7 (Deposition concluded at 1:35 p.m.)
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1 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE
2 WITNESS NAME: CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE
3 DATE OF DEPOSITION: Friday, May 29, 2020
4 PAGE LINE CHANGE OR CORRECTION REASON
5 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
6 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
7 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
8 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
9 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
10 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
11 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
12 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
13 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
14 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
15 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
16 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
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18 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
19 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
20 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
21 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
22 ____ -____-________________________- _________________
23 I, CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE, have read the
24 foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature that
25 same is true and correct, except as noted above.
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1
2 ____________________
CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE
3
4 THE STATE OF _________ )
5 COUNTY OF ____________ )
6
7 Before me, __________________, on this day
8 personally appeared CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE, known to me
9 (or proved to me under oath or through ___________)
10 (description of identity card or other document) to
11 be the person whose name is subscribed to the
12 foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that
13 they executed the same for the purposes and
14 consideration therein expressed.
15 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND and seal of office this
16 ______ day of ___________, 2020.
17
18
19 ______________________
Notary Public in and
20 for the State of ________
21
22
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1 CAUSE NO. 20-0009-C26
2
BRIAN JOHNS, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 Plaintiff, )
)
4 VS. )
) OF WILLIAMSON COUNTY, TEXAS
5 )
WILLIAMSON COUNTY, TEXAS, )
6 Defendant. ) 26TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
7
8
9 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
10 ORAL DEPOSITION OF CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE
11 FRIDAY, MAY 29, 2020
12 ____________________________________________
13 I, Nancy A. Lozano, Certified Shorthand
14 Reporter for the State of Texas, do hereby certify to
15 the following:
16 That the witness, CHIEF DEPUTY TIM RYLE, was
17 duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript of the
18 oral deposition is a true record of the testimony given
19 by the witness;
20 That the deposition transcript was submitted
21 on _____________ to the witness or to the attorney for
22 the witness for examination, signature and returned to
23 me by ________________.
24 That the amount of time used by each party at
25 the deposition is as follows:
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1
2 Mr. Randall Moore - 2 Hours, 39 Minutes
4 That pursuant to information given to the
5 deposition officer at the time said testimony was taken,
6 the following includes counsel for all parties of
7 record:
8 MR. ROBERT McCABE, attorney for Plaintiff
9 MR. RANDALL MOORE, attorney for Plaintiff
10 MR. ROBERT KRONE, attorney for Defendant
11
12 I further certify that I am neither counsel
13 for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties or
14 attorneys in this action in which this proceeding was
15 taken, and further that I am not financially or
16 otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
17
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1 Further certification requirements pursuant
2 to Rule 203 of TRCP will be certified to after they have
3 occurred.
4
5 CERTIFIED to by me this the 5th day
6 of June, 2020.
7
8
9 <%12606,Signature%>
Nancy A. Lozano, CSR 4051
10 Expiration Date: 4/30/22
Firm Registration No. 571
11 Veritext Solutions
300 Throckmorton Street, Suite 1600
12 Fort Worth, Texas 76102
817.336.3042
13
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1 FURTHER CERTIFICATION UNDER RULE 203 TRCP
2 The original deposition was/was not returned to the
3 deposition officer on _________________, 2020.
4 If returned, the attached corrections and signature
5 page contains any changes and the reasons therefor;
6 If returned, the original deposition was delivered
7 to Mr. Randall Moore, Custodial Attorney;
8 That $___________ is the deposition officer's
9 charge to the Attorney for Plaintiff for preparing the
10 original deposition transcript and any copies of
11 exhibits;
12 That the deposition was delivered in accordance
13 with Rule 203.3, and that a copy of this certificate was
14 served on all parties shown herein and filed with the
15 Clerk.
16 Certified to by me this _________ day of
17 _____________ 2020.
18
19
20 <%12606,Signature%>
Nancy A. Lozano, CSR 4051
21 Expiration Date: 4/30/22
Firm Registration No. 571
22 Veritext Solutions
300 Throckmorton Street, Suite 1600
23 Fort Worth, Texas 76102
817.336.3042
24
25
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1 rkrone@germer.com>
2 June 5, 2020
3 RE: Johns, Brian v. Williamson County, Texas
4 DEPOSITION OF: Chief Deputy Tim Ryle (# 4117792)
5 The above-referenced witness transcript is
6 available for read and sign.
7 Within the applicable timeframe, the witness
8 should read the testimony to verify its accuracy. If
9 there are any changes, the witness should note those
10 on the attached Errata Sheet.
11 The witness should sign and notarize the
12 attached Errata pages and return to Veritext at
13 errata-tx@veritext.com.
14 According to applicable rules or agreements, if
15 the witness fails to do so within the time allotted,
16 a certified copy of the transcript may be used as if
17 signed.
18 Yours,
19 Veritext Legal Solutions
20
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[& - 650]
& 1600 129:11 2020 1:8,12 122:22 4

& 1:16 130:22 125:3 126:16 4 3:5,17 65:17,21
17 26:11 53:14 127:11 129:6 73:11,12 74:24
0
54:20 60:23 63:11 130:3,17 131:2 77:18,25 78:1,4,21
01276 3:21 76:6 203 2:9 129:2 78:21,22 80:24
1 1700 1:17 130:1 84:6 117:17
1 3:12 27:19 39:20 18 9:15 59:2,24,25 203.3 130:13 4.7 106:3,4 107:17
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basically 17:22 boss 44:22,24 121:6 122:9,20 capable 5:17

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ceremony 61:25 check 40:16 41:25 101:4 113:8,16,19 come 18:25 26:17
62:1 115:24 116:1,5,8 114:10,18 118:20 70:23 74:14,18
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community 15:20 consequences corporation 6:12 74:23 76:4 86:9
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confidence 33:6 copy 102:23,25 68:19,24 69:5,5,11
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daughter 10:18 2:13 127:6 128:10 depend 25:6 26:2 det 3:14
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121:14 head 32:25 35:24 horrible 67:1 includes 14:9,10

guidance 17:18 42:21 44:20 51:24 hour 51:15 93:15 23:23 128:6
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interaction 61:19 investigative 3:18 57:17 76:18 77:13 129:6 131:2

61:23,24 62:1 75:5 88:14 94:10,12 jury 6:2
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march 11:24 12:4 48:8 78:15,19 4:4 31:14 34:5 needed 26:25
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titled 98:25 truthfulness 39:9 untruthful 42:23 violating 41:8

tmpa 50:7 49:20 untruthfulness violation 24:9,17
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Texas Rules of Civil Procedure
Part II, Section 9, Evidence and Discovery
Rule 203
203.1 Signature and Changes.
(a) Deposition transcript to be provided to
witness. The deposition officer must provide the
original deposition transcript to the witness for
examination and signature. If the witness is
represented by an attorney at the deposition, the
deposition officer must provide the transcript to
the attorney instead of the witness.
(b) Changes by witness; signature. The witness may
change responses as reflected in the deposition
transcript by indicating the desired changes, in
writing, on a separate sheet of paper, together
with a statement of the reasons for making the
changes. No erasures or obliterations of any kind
may be made to the original deposition transcript.
The witness must then sign the transcript under
oath and return it to the deposition officer. If
the witness does not return the transcript to the
deposition officer within 20 days of the date the
transcript was provided to the witness or the

witness's attorney, the witness may be deemed to
have waived the right to make the changes.
(c) Exceptions. The requirements of presentation
and signature under this subdivision do not apply:
(1) if the witness and all parties waive the
signature requirement;
(2) to depositions on written questions; or
(3) to non-stenographic recordings of oral
depositions.
DISCLAIMER: THE FOREGOING CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES
ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF APRIL 1,
201. PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE STATE RULES
OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION.

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Chief Deputy Tim Ryle Deposition Transcript

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Chief Deputy Tim Ryle Deposition Transcript

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1 CAUSE NO.

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2 being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

5 Q. Would you state your name, please.

6 A. Tim Ryle, R-Y-L-E.

7 Q. And your position?

8 A. I am the chief deputy at the Williamson County

10 Q. I'm going to just call you chief if that's okay

12 A. That would be fine.

13 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before?

15 Q. On how many occasions?

16 A. Maybe three or four.

17 Q. What were the circumstances of those, just in

19 A. I was a corporate rep when I was working for

20 the City of Round Rock, and then I've had my deposition

21 taken as an expert witness.

24 Q. How long ago?

25 A. Probably five years ago.

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2 deposition today is for me to ask questions and you to

3 provide answers? Number one, for me to find out what

5 your position is going to be if we have to take this

8 Q. So today is my day to be able to find out the

9 information that you have, and it's just as important to

10 me what information you don't have. So if you don't

11 know the answer to my question, don't guess. Just tell

12 me you don't know. Okay?

14 Q. If you don't understand my question or if I'm

15 not speaking clearly, please ask me to rephrase, define.

16 I want you to have a clear, concise question that you

17 feel capable of answering. Fair enough?

19 Q. We can take a break at any time. The only

20 thing I ask is that if there's a question pending, we

21 answer the question before we take the break. You're

22 also free to refer to any documents that you may have in

23 order to answer a question.

24 You understand then having testified

25 before that the oath that you've given today is just as

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4 Q. Now, how long have you been an expert witness?

5 A. Well, I'm not currently acting as an expert

6 witness, but I did that for about three years.

7 Q. Did you do that under a company or on your own?

8 A. Well, I had a -- I had a company that was just

9 me. But I worked for lawyers.

10 Q. What was the name of the company?

12 Q. Was it a corporation or just --

16 Q. All right. Now, when you testified as an

17 expert, did you testify -- well, what type of cases?

18 A. I testified as an expert in used force cases,

19 law enforcement used force cases.

20 Q. Do you remember whether you testified for the

21 department or for the officer or both?

23 Q. Who were the lawyers if you remember that you

25 A. I worked for Joe Tooley in the northern

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3 Q. When did you obtain that degree?

4 A. About 10, 15 years ago.

5 Q. Have you attended any graduate or postgraduate

7 A. No, sir, I have not.

8 Q. Do you hold any licenses or certifications?