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Dialogues with Lucifer



‘Dialogues with Lucifer’ is intended to provoke some serious thought

about our relationship with God.

Hopefully it will offer at least one new insight that will inspire the

reader to contemplate just how extraordinary that relationship is, and to

pursue a deeper relationship with their Creator.

No offense is intended to any person or belief system.

We are all individuals with unique and varied backgrounds.

And, of course, remember that I do not speak with authority.

I write only with heart-felt opinion based on my understanding of my own


If reading ‘Dialogues with Lucifer’ leaves you angry, I apologize.

If reading ‘Dialogues with Lucifer’ causes a deeper reflection on your

own personal relationship with God, then I am delighted.

I wish you all God’s peace…


Dialogue One

Pilgrim: You’ve been identified with many names over the course of history, is there one

name you would prefer for these dialogues?

Lucifer: Well, the name given to me by the One would be a good choice.

Pilgrim: And which name would that be?

Lucifer: Lucifer.

Pilgrim: It seems a little ironic that you, as the One’s most dedicated enemy, would make

that name your choice.

Lucifer: Not really. I used to be the One’s “right hand man” so to speak. “Lucifer” means

“bearer of the light.” It’s quite an honor.

Pilgrim: I see your point.

Lucifer: Exactly. I mean how complimentary are Prince of Darkness, Satan, Beelzebub,

Father of Lies, etc. They’re all true, but they don’t have the dignity. Although “Prince of

Darkness” does have a nice ring to it don’t you think?

Pilgrim: I guess the “Prince” part does. But you also mentioned “Father of Lies.”

Doesn’t that really sum up the essence of who you are?

Lucifer: Yes and no. I tell a great deal of truth too. It’s just that I use truth as a tool in

the same way humans use a lie.


Pilgrim: How can truth be a tool for evil?

Lucifer: With only a little effort any virtue can be turned into a vice. Surely you’ve heard

of “half-truths” – the other half is invariably a falsehood. And how about all those

“gossip” truths you humans seem to love… Many of them may be true, but it’s

deliciously evil to spread them among people who either don’t have the right to know, or

merely wish to know out of morbid curiosity.


Dialogue Two

Pilgrim: How much do you hate God?

Lucifer: How much does a rock love falling to earth? My loathing of the One is directly

proportional to the relationship I once had in better times. It incites my every thought, it

motivates my every action. There is nothing I do that is not colored by my desire to hurt,

maim, destroy, annihilate the One.

Pilgrim: But surely you know you can’t?

Lucifer: Can’t what?

Pilgrim: Can’t cause God the pain you’re striving for…

Lucifer: You’re right, but you’re also absolutely wrong. You’re right to the extent I can’t

hurt the One, but your wrong, too, because I can cause him incredible anguish when I

devour those the One loves. He’s helpless. He can only watch. And it’s anguishing

watching those you love be tormented in the hideous ways I have devised.

Dialogue Three

Pilgrim: Why did you agree to have these dialogues?

Lucifer: Why not?

Pilgrim: Well, once people know the truth about you, won’t you lose your power?

Lucifer: People already know the truth about me. And I’m doing just fine, thank you.

Pilgrim: They only think they know you. Won’t these dialogues let them know just how

evil you are?

Lucifer: Look, people are going to read this for two reasons: One group will read it to

confirm that I’m evil. They will continue to be wary. The other group will read it to

confirm that I’m evil. It will validate their opinion and they will thirst for the power I can

give. No one is going to be changed by what we chat about.

Pilgrim: Is it just that simple? People want what you can offer?

Lucifer: Of course! Look at what I can offer: power, success, adulation, honor, prestige,

wealth -- all those little hallmarks that you humans regard as “good”.

Pilgrim: But don’t the people who come to you for those things pay a high price?

Lucifer: What’s a high price? It depends on what you want. The stuff I offer is

cherished by many and I am only too happy to oblige.

Pilgrim: But the price…

Lucifer: You’re all hung up on just one part of the transaction. You’ve used a credit card

to get things you want, right? You couldn’t wait until you saved the money, you had to

have it…now. So in a sense you took a “risk” on the future that you’d be able to make

the payments so you could enjoy your stuff now. Same with me. I offer stuff now.

Enjoy now, pay later, that’s me.

Pilgrim: Do you really think people know what they’re getting into?

Lucifer: Of course not. But why should that concern me? That’s like asking a fisherman

if he feels sorry for the fish.

Pilgrim: But why does the One allow you to succeed?

Lucifer: Ahhh, you’ve heard the old expression, “No good deed goes unpunished.” ?

Well the One’s good deed was to create you humans with a free will. He wants you to

love him voluntarily. Nice concept, but the application leads to a lot of burnt cookies, if

you know what I mean.

Pilgrim: It can’t be that simple.

Lucifer: Why not? You don’t need a college degree to know the rules of life. Everyone,

in at least one point in their lives, suspects the truth. But oftentimes the truth isn’t nearly

as glamorous as what I’m offering. And besides how bad can hell be if I’m here talking

with you.

Pilgrim: You’re not in hell right now.

Lucifer: A lot of people would disagree with you.


Dialogue Four

Pilgrim: Can you really get inside my mind and know what I’m thinking.

Lucifer: Directly, no. By inference, yes.

Pilgrim: I’m not sure I understand.

Lucifer: Your mind is your own. It’s a sacred place where you’re allowed to make

choices. It’s a rare gift in the universe and is protected by the One. But I’ve discovered I

don’t need access to your mind to have you do my will. All I need is my eyes. And my

eyes study your eyes. When I see you focus on something, something that catches your

attention, I look at what you’re looking at. Your eyes do reveal your soul. I can know

your every earthly desire by just watching your eyes.

The Son of the One gave my little secret away nearly two-thousand years ago.

Pilgrim: I don’t think I remember it…

Lucifer: That’s because you only read the words. You don’t make an effort to think

about what they mean. The Son of the One pointed out that someone who even “looks”

at a woman with desire has already committed the sin. The eyes revealed the temptation.

The willful desire makes the sin real. It’s already in the heart. Just because it isn’t

physically carried out doesn’t mean there wasn’t the desire, the will, to do it. Physical

acts, mental acts – they’re both actions. Actions you humans are responsible for because

of your free will.

Pilgrim: Why do you only call Jesus, the Son of the One?

Lucifer: His other names imply battles I’ve lost and will continue to lose in the future.

Leaves a bad taste in my mouth – metaphorically speaking.


Dialogue Five

Pilgrim: Do homosexuals go to hell?

Lucifer: Haven’t checked in a millisecond or so. Let me ask an adulterer, thief, or

murderer if they’ve seen one….

Pilgrim: There aren’t any homosexuals in hell?

Lucifer: Is that what I said?

Pilgrim: I thought that was what you were implying…

Lucifer: No, I just wanted to make a point – I’ve got lots of people down here. But I

must confess the place is decorated a lot nicer since they’ve been coming down in droves.

Pilgrim: Why in droves now?

Lucifer: They’ve decided it isn’t a sin…

Pilgrim: So you’re saying it is a sin?

Lucifer: With a capitol “S”. Bad news. Really. But I can get a lot of mileage out of the

“human-ness” of it, how a loving One couldn’t possibly condemn such an earnest desire,

how “I gotta be me.” And if there’s one person who knows the consequences of “I gotta

be me” I’m the man. I got a kingdom out of the deal.

Pilgrim: So it’s your ability to change perspective that makes sin seem likes it’s not sin?

Lucifer: You humans have some sort of strange notion that as long as someone is

“sincere” everything must be OK. Where’d you guys get that notion? Oh wait, that was

me… I’m so embarrassed… I should have recognized my handiwork! But, then, it does

go so far back in your history. It’s not by accident that “sincere” begins with the word

“sin”. Cute, eh?


Pilgrim: What makes homosexuality sinful?

Lucifer: What makes hitting your hand with a hammer wrong?

Pilgrim: I don’t get it.

Lucifer: Think about it… What makes hitting your hand with a hammer wrong?

Pilgrim: It hurts…?

Lucifer: Yes, of course it hurts, but is it the hammer’s fault?

Pilgrim: No, of course not, a hammer is made to strike things.

Lucifer: OK, you're catching on. The hammer is made to strike things, because that is

what it was designed for. It is the mis-use of the hammer that leads to problems – like

breaking the bones in your hand. Same with homosexuals, they’re using their hammers

the wrong way and hurting themselves.

They’ve made their penis the focus of their life. It’s how they define themselves. That

was my idea, by the way. Talk about creative! These guys take nature, stand it on its

head, and then call it “natural”.

Let me ask you, when’s the last time you’ve sucked up something with your anus? It’s

an exit system! It’s so obvious, really. One of my greatest con jobs was making the anus

into a receptacle. And there’s consequences. Same as if you drove the wrong way down

a freeway….

Pilgrim: Isn’t it out of character for you to be quite so “honest” about a deceit?

Lucifer: Yea, but man I’m proud of this one! You can’t believe how effective I’ve been!

All I do is take what is “natural” and sell you guys on its perversion. It’s disgusting even

to me, but it’s the consequences I’m after.

Pilgrim: You’ve indicated some awe for creation. Was that a slip-up?

Lucifer: Except for the creation of you misfits, I must confess an admiration for the rest

of creation. The order of it…the mind-boggling order of it. And my mind can run circles

around your mind any day of the week, month and year. And I’m telling you my mind

boggles at the creation surrounding you guys. The One has put more miracle into one

fruit fly than human kind will ever appreciate, little less understand.

Pilgrim: You’ve cleverly left the topic, haven’t you?

Lucifer: Me? Clever? Of course… That’s one of my “upper division” degrees:

diversion. If I think you’re approaching the truth you’d be surprised at what I can throw

in your path.

Pilgrim: That’s interesting… Exactly what do you throw in our paths…

Lucifer: Exactly what you need to see, hear or feel to change your train of thought. A

pretty person of the opposite sex (or same sex in some cases), a haunting melody

(although I must confess I have great success with just natural sounds…many the dog

I’ve made bark or an unexpected pain to break what seems a special moment of closeness

to the One.) Chest pain is another favorite. Nothing takes your mind off the One like a

little chest pain. Truth be told, though, all I do is generate a little extra gas. Gas! Can

you believe it? What can distract a human from communion with the One? A fart! A

belch! How wonderfully made you are.

Pilgrim: But back to topic, are the homosexuals in hell happy?

Lucifer: You know I thought this might be an interesting exercise, but your last question

really blows me away. Really. It makes me realize that just as much as you can’t

conceive the essence of God, you haven’t a clue about hell.


Listen to me carefully. Write it down so you don’t forget. Never, ever, forget

what I’m going to say next: NO ONE ENJOYS BEING IN HELL. Not even me. But

I’d rather be prince of a cesspool than a servant to you.

Pilgrim: So hell isn’t even pleasant to you?

Lucifer: Yea, sure, love the place. You’d be surprised what we’ve done with the pits and

caverns. Home-y. Fung-shui. Fung-shit. The place reeks of sin, offal, excrement, and

everything foul. Hell is…there is no other word for it, hell. You’ve just gotten so use to

the word that it’s lost it’s meaning. But only for you. For those of us in it, hell never

looses its reality. And except for pride, we’d rather not be here. But then it’s a choice,

king of a cesspool or servant of the One…and by implication, you.


Dialogue Six

Pilgrim: When did you realize Jesus was the Messiah?

Lucifer: You know, that was a lot harder than you may think.

Pilgrim: How so?

Lucifer: I’m a spirit. I’m appearing to you in a semblance of physical form just for your

comfort level. I know how you expect me to look and I’ve tried to fill that image. But

beyond this synthetic image I have fantastic abilities. But being spiritual doesn’t mean I

know everything. If I knew everything I would be the One. And I was on the lookout for

this so-called son of the One. So, if you think I’m good at camouflage and misdirection,

you can imagine the campaign the One directed against me and the discovery of the


At one point in His ministry (He was with his apostles at that point) I thought I

was close to the truth. And then He did, if you’ll excuse the expression, the damndest

thing – he cursed a fig tree. I mean, here’s this defenseless little fig tree. And even

though it was out of season, the son of the One curses the tree for not bearing fruit. How

could this irrational act possibly be the son of the One? I’d thought I’d found the

refutation I’d been looking for. In retrospect I realized his little “performance” had been

done just for my benefit – to throw me off guard. And damned if didn’t work!

My rule of thumb is, when in doubt, chop off a person’s head. I’d done it with

John the Baptist with some degree of success. At least I’d made that seven-veils dance

memorable. (Just between you and I, Herod’s wife’s daughter would’ve tripped over

herself trying to walk down a hallway. I was the one who made her body supple and

inviting. I was the one who made sure the potentates at that dinner had sufficient wine

before her dance. I could have had a sow with psoriasis do that dance and everyone

would have been delighted. Oh, the arrangements and planning us “behind-the-scenes

organizers” must make.)

But when he cursed that fig tree I figured he could not be the Messiah who was

expected. That little scriptural notation was done for MY benefit. A “red-herring” I

believe you would call it. In his unflagging devotion to you human creatures the Son of

the One didn’t put a human soul in jeopardy to throw me off the scent, he used a crummy


It was only after I’d gotten Judas to betray him (betrayal is one of my strong

points) that I’d begun to realize what heaven had sprung upon me. Thirty-three years

wasted! Hell, (excuse the expression) millennia wasted! This was the Son of the One.

This was the One for whom I’d been watching. He hadn’t been slaughtered with those

forty others at his birth! He’d survived, and if the crucifixion was allowed to proceed,

my doom would be sealed. Talk about a dilemma! I had to get Judas to stop…I had to

prevent the crucifixion which would seal my fate.

But then, like so many other contracts I’ve had with you contemptible creatures,

Judas decides to have a thought of his own: “I want the thirty pieces of silver.” I’m

pleading with this guy, “Forget the silver, we’ve got more serious issues here.” And he

says, “Silver, got to have that silver.” And, using his free-will he chooses the SILVER!

Not even gold, this guy sells his soul for SILVER! Can you believe it? What a wild card

the One made when he made you! So here I am whispering in his ear, don’t betray

him…don’t betray him… And what does that son of a human do, HE BETRAYS HIM!

It was a nasty chain of events. I’m not exactly sure when I lost control, but this Judas

became just as much a problem to me as he’d become to the One. You know the rest….

If only I could have brought the crucifixion to a halt… I could have bought more time.

Thirty pieces of silver changed forever my destiny! How outrageous is that?


Dialogue Seven

Pilgrim: In scripture Jesus seems to cast out a lot of demons. Wait a second! Did I see

you flinch when I said the name, “Jesus?”

Lucifer: No, nothing happened.

Pilgrim: Something happened. You moved or twitched…

Lucifer: I only bent my knee a little.

Pilgrim: Why? Why did you bend your knee a little.

Lucifer: Just a reflex. Don’t make a big deal out of it.

Pilgrim: Reflex?

Lucifer: You’re like a dog with a bone about this…

Pilgrim: When I say “Jesus” you twitch, don’t you? There, there I saw you do it again!

Lucifer: Look, I don’t want you to make a big deal out of this and I’d prefer you didn’t

even mention it again, but I work under certain constraints.

Pilgrim: You, the “mighty” Lucifer?

Lucifer: Be careful my friend… If I start to detect any sarcasm I might do something to

humble, perhaps even crush, your arrogance! I am not a figment of your imagination.

I’m one of the most powerful forces in your universe… It would be wise for you not to

forget that.

Pilgrim: You’re saying I should respect you?

Lucifer: Oh most assuredly! Always respect what you do not know. And you do not

know me, but I know you. Even as we do our little conversations you secretly delight

that somehow you are putting something over on me. Just like a mouse thinks it will

escape the toying of a cat. Cats have an amazing win/loss record for that game. Be very

careful my friend…

Pilgrim: Won’t God protect me?

Lucifer: The One will try – but you humans have this uncanny ability to be arrogant and I

count on you to ignore the One’s warning whispers when you think you can handle it


Pilgrim: Wait a second, why does God only whisper? That doesn’t seem fair since you’re

such a formidable foe.

Lucifer: See, this is how I work with your mind. I get you going in a certain direction

and then you start to ask questions without really thinking about them. You call it a

stream of consciousness – but it’s a stream where I can create numerous rapids. Only the

cautious will navigate the waters without mishap. I can have as many drenched victims

as I want – and I must confess, I want them all!

Your last question shows you hit my little “rapids.” Just this once I’m going to show you

how you hit the rocks. If you are standing close to someone you deeply care about would

you scream “I love you!” in their ear? Of course not! It wouldn’t be an act of love, it

would an act of idiocy. Well the One tries very hard to stay close to you, and if you’re

close to the One, you’ll hear his whisper. It’s that simple…. If you’re close to the One

you’ll hear the whisper. If you’re a mile a way, even the One’s shout won’t help.

Pilgrim: Why should I believe you?

Lucifer: Because the truth is an important tool. If I share enough truth with you, you will

begin to trust me – and that’s a wonderful thing.


Pilgrim: So why did you twitch?

Lucifer: Almost had you down the river on that. OK, the rule is, and it’s certainly not

my rule, that every knee must bend at the mention of that name.

Pilgrim: So it’s true? What scripture says is true?

Lucifer: You amaze me. Why are you surprised? I’m a scripture scholar. I watched

every word of it being written. I know the “book” inside and out. I even tried to get a

couple into circulation myself. I used to worry about certain revelations being made

known to you, but I’ve come to realize that just because the truth is there doesn’t mean

anyone will pay attention to it.

Pilgrim: How about when people say the name when they curse?

Lucifer: Doesn’t matter – it’s the “name.” It’s just bittersweet to have to acknowledge it

when people mis-use it. I love it when you humans disrespect the name but the twitches

are annoying. There’s days when I seem to be tap dancing!


Dialogue Eight

Pilgrim: Can you tell me the name of one person in hell?

Lucifer: I am. My legions are too.

Pilgrim: I mean, can you tell me the name of a human who is now in hell?

Lucifer: No.

Pilgrim: You mean there are no humans in hell?

Lucifer: No, I mean I can’t tell you. It’s a rule the One has imposed on my little

operation. But be assured I have numerous human souls roasting in my kingdom.

Pilgrim: You said “roasting.” You meant that as a figure of speech, right?

Lucifer: Yeah, I meant that as a figure a speech.

Pilgrim: I can trust you on that?

Lucifer: Of course.

Pilgrim: You’re lying.

Lucifer: Prove it…

Pilgrim: I can’t.

Lucifer: Interesting, eh?


Dialogue Nine

Pilgrim: We got off track the last time we talked. I wanted to know about Jesus casting

out demons. Was that what He really did?

Lucifer: Yes, that’s what the Son of the One really did.

Pilgrim: Not many people believe that anymore.

Lucifer: Not my problem.

Pilgrim: So you’re saying you can really cause illness and disease in humans?

Lucifer: Normally you humans are so ill-disciplined I don’t have to go to the trouble.

But, yes, I know a thousand times more than your cleverest doctor. Your bodies are

fearfully and wonderfully made, but so am I. And my intellectual powers are immense

compared to your tiny capabilities. You don’t have to whack a person with a brick to get

an effect. I know how to work at the cellular level. For all of the abuse your bodies can

take they’re remarkably sensitive to the tiny tweakings I can give them. Thing is, to keep

the tweak going I have to assign one my guys to full time duty. But it’s usually worth it.

Pilgrim: I’m not sure I understand yet.

Lucifer: Not enough sleep last night? Think of it this way: You’ve just blown up a

balloon and you have your fingers on the tip – let go, the air goes out. Well that’s sort of

how we work – we blow up something in your body but have to stay there to keep it in

effect. When we’re forced to leave when the balloon empties and you have what you call

a “cure.”

To our credit we try to make your illnesses and diseases with “invisible” links to our

handiwork. Damned penicillin sure put a damper on some of our favorite techniques.

Pilgrim: I had no idea.

Lucifer: You got that right.


Dialogue Ten

Lucifer: What’s on your mind?

Pilgrim: Fortune tellers…

Lucifer: OK, what’s up with fortune tellers?

Pilgrim: Can they really see into the future?

Lucifer: You bet – especially with a little bit of help from me. If the universe were

simply chaotic no one would know for sure what would happen next, but the universe is a

pretty logical place.

Pilgrim: I’m not talking about sunrise and sunsets. I mean people’s destinies. Do you

actually know what’s going to happen to people in the future?

Lucifer: Yes. Well, mostly yes. Destinies aren’t that much different from sunrises and

sunsets as you may think. After all you are a creature in this universe.

Pilgrim: But I have a free will…

Lucifer: True, but that doesn’t mean you actually take the time to use it. You must have

dozens of things that you own but you’re not using them right now.

Pilgrim: I don’t think you understand what I mean…

Lucifer: Ahhhh, but I do…it’s you who’s not catching on… Let me put it this way, just

because you have a free will doesn’t mean you exercise it. Like any form of exercise it

requires both “will power” and “work.” And you humans are notorious for lacking the

one and avoiding the other.

But even beyond the physical realm you live in a dynamic spiritual reality. And

that reality is not chaotic either. The One’s game plan for your soul requires an orderly

play out of events. It gets down to the difference between “predestined” and

“predetermined.” Do you know the difference?

Pilgrim: They seem pretty much the same…

Lucifer: About the same as a surgeon cutting you with scalpel and a mugger stabbing

you with a knife! You’ll bleed from both but one will help heal and the other can cause

death. Luckily you’re talking to someone who understands these things. Listen up!

Predestined means you were designed to ultimately be with the One. Predetermined

means you have no choice in the matter. Predestined refers to the game plan, but it does

not guarantee the personal outcome.

Pilgrim: It’s still kind of fuzzy…

Lucifer: Let’s try it this way. You’re the captain of a boat and it’s your job to get to a

specific safe harbor. You pick the charts, you pick your crew, plus all the other stuff like

your speed and how you’ll react to any possible storms you encounter. So there’s plenty

of free will involved, right?

Pilgrim: If you put it that way…

Lucifer: Well, as a player in a predestined game plan, you don’t get to choose the boat (it

could be anything from a garbage scow to a cruise ship), you don’t get to choose the

water you’ll sail on (it could a lake or an ocean), and you don’t get to choose the port.

All of those things are already laid out as part of the universal game plan.

And because of my elevated spiritual powers I can take a look at that plan. And if

I choose I can share some of the “possibilities” of those future events. But I usually

charge a pretty high price.

Pilgrim: Fortune tellers aren’t so expensive.


Lucifer: Silly boy, that’s not the price I’m referring to. My little glimmers of the future

can be pretty unfortunate for my victim. But before you get all hot and bothered blaming

me for that outcome, remember it is YOU who come to ME here.

Pilgrim: But why does it have to be unfortunate?

Lucifer: Two reasons. By revealing a couple of scenarios that are true I build up

confidence in my victim (I mean that in the most positive sense) to trust my words – but

it’s always a nasty mistake! When I have your confidence is when I alter the visions to

fit my needs – and unfortunately for you my needs are the exact opposite of yours. But

hey, you choose to be gullible, so I guess I can choose to take advantage of it. I have a

free will too.

Pilgrim: That sounds really cruel.

Lucifer: Thank you.

Pilgrim: I wasn’t intending it as a compliment. But, what’s the second reason?

Lucifer: I’m letting you in on some of the better plays in my little book of diabolical

stratagems, but I’m just so proud of how clever they are. Not only are you suckered in to

believing “false” information, but you also begin to rely on my information. Is that a

stroke of genius, or what!

Pilgrim: Rely?

Lucifer: You’ve led a pretty sheltered life, haven’t you? No matter. By rewarding your

questions with correct answers you begin to depend on me to make your decisions for

you. And that’s something I’m only too happy to do. As you rely on me more and more,

you rely on yourself less and less. Goodbye free will.


Pilgrim: But the One says we should rely on him. Isn’t that giving up my free will too?

Lucifer: Normally I let the One defend his own positions, but no, it’s not the same. To

constantly choose the One is to exercise your free will. But the One is calling you to one

kingdom, and I am calling you to another. The distinction is in the result. Heaven or my


Pilgrim: So fortune tellers can tell the future?

Lucifer: Sometimes. But which time they’re right is a wild card. That’s why your Bible

forbids it. It’s not that it can’t be done and it’s not that the answers are wrong. It’s that

the answers could be wrong and you wouldn’t know the difference. Tricky, eh?

Pilgrim: So are all fortune tellers connected to you?

Lucifer: Not knowingly. Some of my best stooges are the ones who don’t realize who

they’re getting their power from. But the “power” I give them is intoxicating, it’s pretty

heady stuff. Once you taste it you’ve got to have more. Sort of like potato chips.

Pilgrim: But some of them seem like genuine and kind people.

Lucifer: What’s that got to do with anything?

Pilgrim: Oh……

Dialogue Eleven

Pilgrim: What do you think of Michael?

Lucifer: Michael who?

Pilgrim: Michael, the archangel.

Lucifer: A little arrogant, a bit of a goodie two-shoes.

Pilgrim: You make him sound trivial.

Lucifer: Well, look at this way, we’re equally matched. He’s an angel, I’m an angel.

He’s in charge of angelic troops, and I’m in charge of angelic troops.

Pilgrim: It’s seems strange to hear you call your legions angels.

Lucifer: We are what we are. You folks seem to get all kinds of giddy thinking about

good little angels, cherubs, wispy ladies with swords or armloads of musical instruments.

But what about us? I mean, really! We’re right in there with your daily lives. But

Noooo, nobody thinks we truly exist. It’s a real embarrassment. I mean for the last few

human generations I’ve been right out front. I’ve been strutting my stuff. But where’s

the recognition? If nothing else we deserve your respect for being the warriors we are.

We fight a mean game of life and death – and we know how to win.

We’re collecting souls by the truckload, but unless we make a little girl’s head

spin around and spew out pea soup, we’re nothing! When will you people get a grip?

We’re real. We’re powerful. We’re bad – bad to the depths of your soul!

See, you’ve got me started on a sore spot… I do my best work while undercover,

but sometimes a guy needs a little recognition, a little applause from the crowd. Screams

I get – plenty of screams – there’s Excedrin headache days down in hell! But where’s the

basic decency in just recognizing me for who I am?

I’m the mighty Lucifer!!! I can throw planets off their courses. I can annihilate

whole cities. I’m a force to be reckoned with. And here I am stuck with a bunch of

groupies in hell who decide, after the fact, they’d rather be somewhere else. Screw ‘em.

They got their turn to play in the lights! They got their fat bankrolls to indulge

their appetites. No sympathy from me…

Pilgrim: So, are you afraid of Michael?

Lucifer: Michael, Michael, Michael. I swear the name makes me want to puke. You’ve

got a statue of Michael there. He’s got his damn foot on my head. Does that seem like a

pleasant person to you?

Pilgrim: I think it’s supposed to show he’s stronger than you. That he’s going to win the

battle with you.

Lucifer: He can’t win diddly-squat by himself. He can only win if the One helps him.

That’s hardly impressive.

Pilgrim: But isn’t that exactly what’s going to happen? He will get God’s help.

Lucifer: You’re annoying. You dwell on the negative. I bet you’re looking forward to

your next toothache. It’s not like I spend my time moping around hell just thinking about

possible future events. Well, actually I do, just not that event.

Pilgrim: Sorry if I’ve offended…

Lucifer: IF you’ve offended? What are you telling me? Your mouth just opens and

words fall out? No more talk about Michael. We’re here to talk about me. Just me. Got


Pilgrim: Got it.


Dialogue Twelve

Pilgrim: I wasn’t sure you’d come back.

Lucifer: I’m in this for the long haul.

Pilgrim: You’re a spirit, right?

Lucifer: That’s me all over.

Pilgrim: Well, how do you, a spirit without a physical body, work in a temporal world?

Lucifer: Wait just a second… Let me measure something here. Let’s see, I’m looking at

about a 23 inch hat size, not counting the blow-dry and mousse. Gosh, your head is just

too darn small. I’d explain it to you but you there just ain’t room for all the brains you

need. But don’t feel too bad, none of you have the brain power.

Pilgrim: Could you give me a simplified explanation?

Lucifer: I’ll give it a shot. When your eyes glaze over, I’ll stop. You live your life

according to a rhythm. Heartbeats, sunrises, martinis. I don’t. None of my activities

depend on any type of cycle whatsoever. And even though time is relative I can dip into

it without it affecting me at all. Sort of like you putting your hand in a stream to catch a

fish. The fish is on a completely different lifecycle. Its lifetime may be a year or two.

Its environment is water. Yet here you come and just put your hand in and grab it.

You’ve entered its world without becoming part of it.

Pilgrim: But part of my world is the fish’s world…

Lucifer: And your world is part of my reality.

Pilgrim: Just when I think I’m getting it, I realize I’m not…

Lucifer: Exactly. Now you’re getting it.


Pilgrim: I’m getting it when I’m not getting it?

Lucifer: Exactly.

Dialogue Thirteen

Pilgrim: How do you get to possess people?

Lucifer: I’m invited.

Pilgrim: You’re kidding.

Lucifer: Why kid about that?

Pilgrim: Who would invite you?

Lucifer: Interestingly it depends on a tiny little quirk in the universe. It’s something

we’ve talked about before, but it has a special application here. The people who invite me

oftentimes don’t realize they’re doing it.

Pilgrim: That doesn’t seem fair.

Lucifer: It’s plenty fair, hear me out. How did the One create the universe?

Pilgrim: He willed it?

Lucifer: Yes he willed it, but HOW did the One bring it about?

Pilgrim: He spoke the words that caused it to be?

Lucifer: Bingo! Words have meaning, but just as important, words have power. When

the One let Adam name the animals he bestowed on him power normally reserved for the

One himself.

Pilgrim: You’re saying words have an effect no matter if the effect is intended?

Lucifer: Bingo again. This could be your lucky day. Expressions like “Go to hell” and

“Damn you” are real words with real power. Even if they’re said without full knowledge

of their outcome, they are still real words with real power. When they’re said in the heat

of anger it’s like they’ve gone through an amplifier into woofers that would knock your

socks off. If I wouldn’t have heard it when it was whispered, I sure hear it when it’s


And when I hear requests like that I hustle my butt up to the One’s customer

service department and ask if I can do what’s been asked of me. Sometimes the answer is

yes and sometimes the answer is no. What’s important to you, sometimes the answer is


Pilgrim: You mean to say a simple curse can allow you to enter a soul?

Lucifer: I didn’t say that. A curse can allow me to enter a body. Why do you think the

One prohibits cursing? Cursing is hell’s American Express card – it gets us where we

want to go.

Pilgrim: I still don’t think it’s fair.

Lucifer: And your point is…?

Pilgrim: It’s not fair that someone could say something and make it happen without

realizing the consequences.

Lucifer: It happens all the time. Contrary to popular opinion, ignorance is not always

bliss. You probably sneak through some traffic lights as they’re changing to red. Just

because you get away with it a few times in a row doesn’t mean you should get away

with it every time.

Pilgrim: Well then how come it’s so easy to let you in, but so difficult to get you out?

Lucifer: You’re asking without thinking again… If it was a “bad” person who cursed

and let me in, what kind of person would be necessary to get me out?

Pilgrim: A good person, I guess.


Lucifer: And you guess correctly. How many good people are there? I mean “good”

people… not just kinda, not just sorta, not just better than some… I’m talking really

good here.

Pilgrim: OK, I guess there may not be a lot…

Lucifer: You got that right. There’s times when I’m almost embarrassed at how few

really good people there are. I can still remember the look on Lot’s face when he tried to

find a few.

Pilgrim: But I thought any priest could cast you out?

Lucifer: You’ve changed the rules. A priest has special powers given to him by the One.

But that doesn’t necessarily make it easy. In fact, unless he is a very good priest, I’ve

been known to simply exchange bodies, the previous victim for his. That can be a

shocker let me tell you. At least these days they’re not wearing those annoying roman

collars. Such a neck rash….

Pilgrim: Do you actually take over a person’s will?

Lucifer: No, not unless I’m invited to do that too. And there are those who make that

invitation. But typically I can take control of the body. Remember that your soul and

your body are distinct. Sort of like water in a sponge.

Pilgrim: Is there a way to recognize when you’ve taken over a body?

Lucifer: I’ve only been asked that question once before. Yes, there is. It’s a little

hallmark item that all of my minions instantly recognize. It’s a kind of smile. Do you

want to see it?

Pilgrim: No! I don’t think I’d better.

Lucifer: Interesting, that’s what the other guy said when I offered him the same deal…

Dialogue Fourteen

Pilgrim: Can you really appear as anything you want?

Lucifer: Anything. I’m up for a challenge.

Pilgrim: This won’t get me in trouble will it?

Lucifer: No, this is a special arrangement. I’ll give you a couple of choices. But please

don’t pick a swine. I still get annoyed when I think about the last time that happened.

Pilgrim: Can I see how you appeared in Eden?

Lucifer: Ahhh, we’re dealing with a literalist here. OK, but here’s the deal, when I

change I want you to look into my eyes, I mean really stare into them, OK? But let’s not

do the corny poof of smoke thing…how about you just blink for a second.

Pilgrim: Oh my god!

Lucifer: Pretty compelling, eh? The length and size sort of take your breath away don’t

they? Let me come a little closer.

Pilgrim: I’m not sure this was a good idea.

Lucifer: Oh come on, don’t leave the party early. Let me come up to your eye level. You

promised to look. Pleassssssse….

Pilgrim: I can’t, I can’t. Please change back.

Lucifer: All right, all right… Eve had more guts than you…

Pilgrim: I don’t care. But, speaking of Eve, I hear you’re pretty good at appearing as a

beautiful woman… I must confess I’d like to see what you’d come up with.

Lucifer: Blink, please.

Pilgrim: Holy cow!


Lucifer: Hardly.

Pilgrim: I mean you’re perfect.

Lucifer: Made to order.

Pilgrim: I mean you’re beautiful…

Lucifer: It’s sweet of you to notice.

Pilgrim: Are you real?

Lucifer: Real enough. Real enough for you, big boy.

Pilgrim: Please don’t do that “smile” thing okay?

Lucifer: But it’s such a winning smile… Are you ssssssssure?

Pilgrim: Go back, go back, change back…

Lucifer: Blink, please.

Pilgrim: I had no idea. This whole idea blows me away.

Lucifer: You’ve no idea.

Pilgrim: Can I see you as you really are?

Lucifer: Well that’s a little tougher. I am a spirit after all. But I suppose I can appear to

you for a moment or so as what I actually represent to mortal humans. One condition

though… no vomiting.

Pilgrim: No vomiting?

Lucifer: Upchucking, hurling, whatever. Trust me, it’s a reasonable request. Let’s have

that blink.

Pilgrim: Aaaarghhhhhhhh…

Lucifer: You just said you wouldn’t…

Pilgrim: Please, please, I don’t think I can live through this…


Lucifer: Hmmm. And yet a moment ago you wanted me. Guess you just wanted what

you saw… how come you don’t love me for who I am?

Pilgrim: Please… Wait just a sec while I clean myself up a little…. There…. Thank you

for your handkerchief. Wait, one more question, can you appear as goodness?

Lucifer: First, I don’t want the handkerchief back. Please keep it with my compliments.

Just forget the fact that it’s made out of silk and monogrammed… Yesssss (excuse me

slip of the tongue – old habits are hard to break) Yes, I can.

Pilgrim: Can you give me an example.

Lucifer: I’ll show you my best. This was a show-stopper back in the 600’s. You’re

going to see me do the “grande jete” of your human ballet of life. Please blink.

Pilgrim: Gabriel? Archangel Gabriel?

Lucifer: Why yes.

Pilgrim: Where did Lucifer go?

Lucifer: Ahhh, I banished him. You can’t see it, but I have my foot on his head.

Pilgrim: Gabriel, I must confess I was so afraid. Lucifer can do so many things I didn’t

even imagine…

Lucifer: Now, now… Be at peace, I am with you. Lucifer is gone… gone for good. But

there are a few things I’d like to straighten out about this Jesus of Nazareth. He wasn’t

the Son of the One. Nice guy, but no God. Got a pen handy? That’s OK, I’ll help you

remember what I’m about to share…


Dialogue Fifteen

Pilgrim: What do you think about breaking the commandments?

Lucifer: Silly question. I think breaking the commandments should be a daily sport. I

think we should have competitions to see who can break the most.

Pilgrim: That’s not what I mean. Are you involved in every sin?

Lucifer: As much as I’d like to take credit for all the insane situations you find yourself

in, No, I’m not responsible for every sin.

Pilgrim: Please explain.

Lucifer: It’s like this. First there was the One. The eternal One. No beginning, no

middle, no end. I must confess this is even a mystery to me… Don’t think about it too

long because even I get a headache.

Anyhow, the One then chose to create angels. Now remember, we’re spirits. We

don’t exist in a time frame. So we, within a moment of our creation, understood the

game plan. No surprises. No university degrees here…we understood it all. And within

what you would call micro-seconds, some of us said “Wait a second (figure of speech

again) we don’t buy into this…” And gosh if we didn’t end up at the Motel 6 of the

universe. I mean we’ve got a lot, but there’s a lot we don’t have. No mints on pillows

down in hell.

So then comes the first humans. Did you know you guys are made out of dirt?

Yeah, we were surprised too. Anyhow that’s when I got my first chance to see if you

were going to be so gosh awful wonderful. Now my first impression is you weren’t so

terribly bright, but you did have a sort of innocent quality. A sort of “Hey, little girl,

would you like a candy bar?” “Yes, kind stranger.” type of thing. So I got permission

from the One to try a little test. For a God who claims to be all-knowing I can’t believe

the One was surprised at the outcome. But, nevertheless, there I was groveling in the dirt

because of something THEY did.

So what this means is, you are a child of your first parents. Parents who managed

to (drum roll please) sin. The first test, and I won! Can you believe it? Drinks were on

the house down in hell! And yet, the victory has certain haunting qualities to it…

Anyhow, the One decided to take into account that you miserable creatures

(nothing personal intended), as sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, were being born

under a handicap… a “fallen” nature if you will. And if life were a golf game, he gave

you strokes. I mean, he gave you strokes upon strokes. I cannot believe what he saw in

you creatures of dust! He’s giving you slack! We’ll never forgive him for that.

Pilgrim: So God still loves us?

Lucifer: You’ve no idea.

Pilgrim: And yet he’d let some of us go to hell?

Lucifer: Because the One’s merciful doesn’t mean the One isn’t just.

Pilgrim: It seems a contradiction to me.

Lucifer: What does dust know?


Dialogue Sixteen

Pilgrim: Does anything make you afraid?

Lucifer: I’ve never been asked that.

Pilgrim: So, does anything make you afraid?

Lucifer: Michael a little, but only because he’s a worthy adversary. But there is one


Pilgrim: God?

Lucifer: No, not the One, another.

Pilgrim: Who would that be?

Lucifer: The mother.

Pilgrim: Mary?

Lucifer: Funny thing about her. She is also made of dirt. But she is more like Eve

before the fall than the rest of you creatures. I’d never met anyone, and I do mean

anyone, who kept the One’s will first and foremost in her mind and conduct.

Pilgrim: And you’re afraid of her.

Lucifer: Not directly. I mean she’s a woman. How terrifying can that be? Anyhow the

One appears to have given a promise to this creature of dust and mud that she will

eventually crush my head. Now I ask you, is that a nice thing to do?

Pilgrim: I guess it depends…

Lucifer: Boy, you sure know how to make a fellow feel like he’s among friends. But I

do worry about this. The One may have done a lot of things I’ve not immediately

understood, but I’m sure not comfortable with how this will eventually play out.

Pilgrim: So Mary is special?

Lucifer: Get a grip! Do you think anyone could have become the mother of the One?

You’re betraying your puny ability to think deep thoughts. Of course she’s special.

Dialogue Seventeen

Pilgrim: Is there something you would like to talk about?

Lucifer: Hmmm. Didn’t expect that… Let me think. OK, why is it so easy for me to

dupe you? Granted you have a fallen nature, but that shouldn’t make you idiots. Why do

you continually make bad choices?

Pilgrim: It’s even easier than you may think. We live in a physical world with physical

sensations. Unless we take time to consider the other possibilities of our spiritual nature,

the physical world pretty much overwhelms us. Sort of like trying to hear a whisper in a

rock concert.

Lucifer: Yes, but that only explains the obstacles. Surely you have the ability to get over


Pilgrim: Yes and no. Unfortunately with our first parent’s sin we changed the nature of

things. Since everything was created for us (please don’t take offense) the sin set up an

unfortunate chain of events. What had been immortality in a physical sense, a life

without pain, a life without strife, became its opposite. We were doomed to die, doomed

to suffer, and to face conflict every moment of our lives. The only thing that gave life

meaning was the confidence, so often only the suspicion, that there was more than what

the eye could see and the hand could touch.

Lucifer: So what? If you have both a physical nature and a spiritual nature why aren’t

the odds more 50-50?

Pilgrim: Because of you. It’s not just our ability to make a decision, it’s your ability to

influence our choice. And I must admit you have some pretty awesome qualities.

Lucifer: I’m not sure it’s a compliment, but thank you for noticing.

Pilgrim: When we’re not wallowing in the total physical aspect of our lives, the spiritual

side offers a conflict. A sort of “Stuff” versus “Soul” combat. Now since “Stuff” can

only a last a lifetime, but a “Soul” is immortal, you’d think we could decide better.

But when you got our first parents to sin you changed creation forever. We can

no longer hold grace. The cracks in our nature let it seep out. The only think that gives

us any hope is a Redeemer. Someone who can superglue out nature back together and

make it leak proof. The appearance of wholeness isn’t enough… It’s got to be leak-

proof. The Son of the One is both our superglue and our sealer.

Lucifer: Strange isn’t it? It almost seems like I shouldn’t be able to have any victories at


Dialogue Eighteen

Pilgrim: Are you afraid of my guardian angel?

Lucifer: Are you afraid of a dog on a chain?

Pilgrim: What do you mean?

Lucifer: Typically you help me keep your guardian angel at bay. He can’t do any more

than you let him – it’s part of that free will thing.

Pilgrim: You mean my guardian angel can only do what I ask?

Lucifer: No, I only mean he can’t do something that would interfere with your free will.

He can’t stop you from sinning, but he can help if you ask.

Pilgrim: I was always led to believe that our guardian angels help us all the time without

us knowing it.

Lucifer: And do you believe everything you hear?

Pilgrim: Should I believe you?

Lucifer: Point taken. Okay, as a matter of fact, be grateful your angel doesn’t have to be

paid overtime.

Pilgrim: Why’s that?

Lucifer: Because deciding whether to sin or not isn’t the only thing that’s going on in

your life. At least it shouldn’t be… You are also swimming in events that could cause

you grave misfortune or unexpected good luck. Remember that last time you swerved

out of the way of an accident about to happen? You didn’t think you had a chance. Well,

you didn’t. That extra inch of clearance was a gift. You assumed you’d misjudged the

distance, but you got it right – your angel perturbed the universe just for your benefit.

Pilgrim: You’re kidding…

Lucifer: Yeah, that’s me, old prankster Lucifer. You can’t imagine the chuckles I get

down in hell.

Pilgrim: But, if what you’re saying is true, why do people get in accidents?

Lucifer: Because the One has a plan… And I must confess much of that plan is a

mystery even to me.

Pilgrim: So you can’t be sure when a guardian angel will help?

Lucifer: You can absolutely bank on the fact he will try to help, but sometimes events

must be allowed to play out. Have you any idea how many angels wanted to step in and

protect the son of the One from Calvary. Legions of them! Legions! It was one of

heaven’s major testosterone rally’s (in a manner of speaking).

Pilgrim: So why was I protected from that almost accident?

Lucifer: Beats me. I thought you should have cashed it in… But hey it wasn’t your

time. And your time is set by the One.

Pilgrim: But surely that time isn’t as “fixed” as you make it out to be?

Lucifer: Now that’s an interesting point. It’s true. That time can be manipulated… But

strictly for my benefit.

Pilgrim: Your benefit?

Lucifer: You bet. Big time benefit. It’s sort of the “golden parachute” of hell. An

almost guaranteed entrance into my kingdom.

Pilgrim: You’re talking about suicide aren’t you?


Lucifer: You got it. No one has the authority to preempt the One’s will on this. Doesn’t

mean it can’t be done, just means no one has the authority. Down here in Hell we

welcome “take charge” people like that.

Pilgrim: But you said it “almost” guaranteed entrance to hell….

Lucifer: You’re listening pretty close aren’t you? Is it because I’m that interesting or

you’re just that morbid?

Pilgrim: About “almost”…

Lucifer: Funny thing about your world… You exist in physical time but your “rigid”

time is a whole lot more “plastic” than you think. As fast as a bullet goes, the human will

can go faster… You wouldn’t believe the ones I’ve lost in the last nanoseconds of their


Some day I’ve got an interesting story about Judas I’d like to share.

Pilgrim: I’ve got time.

Lucifer: Sorry, hell’s guest book is for members only at this time. You’re not a member.


Dialogue Nineteen

Pilgrim: Has a soul ever escaped from Hell?

Lucifer: Has a soul ever left heaven?

Pilgrim: You did.

Lucifer: Hmmm. Interesting point.

Pilgrim: So has a soul ever escaped from Hell?

Lucifer: I’m told I can’t give you that answer.

Pilgrim: Who told you?

Lucifer: That’s my business.

Pilgrim: Was it the One?

Lucifer: That’s my business.

Pilgrim: You seem particularly sensitive about this…

Lucifer: That’s my business.

Pilgrim: It was one of the One’s minor angels wasn’t it?

Lucifer: That’s my business.

Pilgrim: Yes, it was one of heaven’s minor angels that got to tell the mighty Lucifer what

he could and couldn’t say, wasn’t it?

Lucifer: That’s my business.

Pilgrim: And you have to obey don’t you?



Dialogue Twenty

Pilgrim: What would you say is your most effective tool?

Lucifer: Like I’m gonna tell you…

Pilgrim: What harm can it do? You’ve already made the point we humans typically

don’t change even if we know the truth.

Lucifer: Okay, here it is. The biggie. The supersized menu item that adds tons of

calories to the heat down here…. Ready?

Pilgrim: Yeah, supersize me…

Lucifer: I’ve just told you.

Pilgrim: What do you mean? No you didn’t!

Lucifer: But I most assuredly did.

Pilgrim: It must have been pretty subtle…

Lucifer: Thank you.

Pilgrim: I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about….

Lucifer: Ahhh, grasshopper, listen once again as the master explains. Wipe on, wipe

off… No wait, that’s a different lesson…. Try it this way… I think you’ll catch on

before I finish the explanation. Is there anything wrong with ordering fast food?

Pilgrim: No.

Lucifer: Always no?

Pilgrim: Well, I suppose you shouldn’t have it every day.

Lucifer: Good. And what else?


Pilgrim: They say supersizing only adds calories to a meal that already has too much fat

and sugar.

Lucifer: Un-huh. And that used to be called “gluttony.” It was one of the seven deadly

sins. (Still is by the way.) In the old days it meant spiritually deadly, but nowadays it

means physically deadly too.

Pilgrim: So your most effective tool is taking things to extremes?

Lucifer: Bingo! Someone once said that taking any virtue to its extreme is a vice. (That

was me, by the way.) They were absolutely right. (I love it when I’m right.) You don’t

fall off a tightrope when you’re balanced. You only fall when you lean too far in one


Pilgrim: That’s amazing…

Lucifer: Effective too.

Pilgrim: But surely a person can’t love too much?

Lucifer: Of course they can. But that’s because your word “love” means so many

different things. Love, in the sense the One intended, cannot be taken to extremes. But

the way you humans use “love” can be pretty despicable. Down here in Hell we

continually marvel at how our potential attendance figures soar when we hear you say

things like, “But I love him…” or “It must be okay because we love each other…”

Pilgrim: That’s not fair. You’re talking about people who are caught up in an emotional

sensation. Surely the One takes that into account.

Lucifer: Yes, the One knows your weakness. But the One has also put a fire in your soul

to aspire to the good. He takes a dim view of you smothering that fire with feelings you

make no attempt to control.


Dialogue Twenty-One

Pilgrim: Have you ever done anything good?

Lucifer: I do good stuff all the time.

Pilgrim: You do?

Lucifer: Sure. Builds confidence.

Pilgrim: Wait, we’ve talked about this. You just do good stuff just to trap people into

trusting you.

Lucifer: You keep giving me these disapproving looks. You’re being pretty

unreasonable yourself.

Pilgrim: Oh?

Lucifer: Have you ever gone over the speed limit?

Pilgrim: Sometimes.

Lucifer: Okay, how much?

Pilgrim: Five, maybe ten miles an hour.

Lucifer: But you know the legal limit, right?

Pilgrim: Yeah.

Lucifer: So some day I plant the thought “there’s nobody around I can go a lot faster”

and you get caught by a cop you didn’t see. Is it my fault?

Pilgrim: I guess not…

Lucifer: Gotcha! Yes, it was!!!!! I love when this happens.

Pilgrim: I don’t get it… Why was it your fault?


Lucifer: All those other times you didn’t get caught. I was the one distracting the cop. I

was the one that made him look down or realize he had an itch… I was busy doing

“good” things for you. I was responsible for your not getting caught earlier. I am just so

good at stuff like this…

Pilgrim: Yes, but you mean “good” in a different sense.

Lucifer: No, I don’t. You thought it was “good” in the very same sense when you didn’t

get tickets.

Pilgrim: I never realized I was misusing the word. I never realized…

Lucifer: I did.

Dialogue Twenty-Two

Pilgrim: Since you’re actually pure spirit, why do you have the reputation for being

grossly ugly and foul smelling.

Lucifer: A simple “hello” would have been sufficient…

Pilgrim: OK, Hello. Now why, when we’re supposed to be seeing you for who you truly

are, do you appear so disgusting? Is that your choice?

Lucifer: What do you think?

Pilgrim: I’m thinking it isn’t… That the One doesn’t allow you to deceive completely…

Lucifer: You’d be wrong.

Pilgrim: Really?

Lucifer: Really.

Pilgrim: Why would you want to appear in such a disgusting way?

Lucifer: Because to me it isn’t disgusting. It’s simply a tool to cause you to realize the

immensity of my power. True, I may appear to you to be repulsive, but I also appear as

mighty and worthy of fear. Intimidation is not to be taken lightly… If I wanted I could

appear as something much more loveable… And I have… Many times.

Pilgrim: You’re lying.

Lucifer: That’s a terrible accusation.

Pilgrim: But I think the One does put restraints on you.

Lucifer: I thought my explanation was pretty good.


Pilgrim: It’s great – it’s just not true. For you to be able to always “deceive” without

revealing your true nature would seriously jeopardize our ability to make a good choice.

The One allows you to tempt, but not overwhelm.

Lucifer: So it’s your word against mine.

Pilgrim: Not quite.

Lucifer: How so?

Pilgrim: For you to have total power over your activities would make you equal to the

One…. And you are not the One…


Dialogue Twenty-Three

Pilgrim: Could we talk about your nature some more?

Lucifer: Sure, I love nature talks.

Pilgrim: You are the essence of evil, right?

Lucifer: It’s an honor of noteworthy merit. Before me, evil didn’t exist. I am its

innovator “par excellence.”

Pilgrim: But in our talks I see you as an actor who has assumed a costume. What are you

like under that costume?

Lucifer: Exactly like you!

Pilgrim: That can’t be true!

Lucifer: Why? Do you think I am the only one who can alienate the One?

Pilgrim: No, it’s just that I imagined you’re in a special league of your own.

Lucifer: Of course I am. But that doesn’t mean we can’t share hell. If we live in the

same house we must be pretty similar after all.

Pilgrim: I thought of it more as a man and a dog in the same house.

Lucifer: Fine with me. But why do you want to be the dog?

Pilgrim: I wasn’t thinking of me as the dog…

Lucifer: Oh come on now… Just how arrogant can you, as clump of clay, be? You’re

made from dirt, man! I’m pure spirit, and a damn powerful one at that!

Pilgrim: Yes, but I’m made in the One’s image and likeness.

Lucifer: Big whoop! That’s not a reference to the physical you moron… It’s a reference

to your free will and your ability to subdue all of the One’s creation. I, too, can split

mountains and create waves that engulf half a continent! Let’s see you do that!

Pilgrim: But surely the One restrains your power?

Lucifer: Why? Because you guys are worthy of it? Give me a break…

Pilgrim: Are you saying you’re an instrument of the One’s chastisement?

Lucifer: You better believe it! Ever hear of war?

Pilgrim: War. Hmmm… Isn’t war necessary to defeat evil?

Lucifer: So, you’d use evil to destroy evil? Sort of like putting out a fire with gasoline

wouldn’t you say?

Pilgrim: No! I mean some evil must be stopped before it overwhelms…

Lucifer: Really! You are naïve! Wars may start for “good” causes but their

implementation is all my doing! War is my “royal flush” playing poker with you puny

dust gatherings! I unleash my every impulse to destroy, to maim, to mutilate, to wound,

to suffer, to experience pain, to experience depression, to cause unbridled depravity,

reckless emotions and the wallowing in sin. War is my game. The trouble with you is

you equate war with justice. Maybe it could happen if each of you who participated in it

was perfect, but humanity is far from perfect! And how many of you revel in your


Pilgrim: Is that why the martyrs didn’t resist their imprisonment?

Lucifer: You got it! They trusted the One.

Pilgrim: But they died!


Lucifer: So? You make such a big deal out of that. Even the Son of the One died!

Where’s the surprise? Do any of you actually think you’re going to become immortal

without going through the process? That’s not hope – that’s stupidity. You’re gonna die!

Trust me, you’re gonna die.

Pilgrim: So you’re saying death isn’t a defeat?

Lucifer: You know these interviews are tedious enough… But don’t you do any

preparation before you ask me these questions? How can death be a defeat? Was your

birth a defeat?

Pilgrim: All right, I admit I’m not your intellectual equal, but death is pretty serious to


Lucifer: Your death is serious to me too! How do you think I keep adding suburbs to

hell? It’s the overflow crowd from these past few centuries. You guys keep knocking at

the gates and we have to keep making more grates and ovens. Don’t get me wrong…

Every room in hell is a Motel 6. Nothing fancy… Just the bare essentials… You won’t

notice the difference when you sleep…

Pilgrim: Do you sleep in hell?

Lucifer: Of course NOT! Ha-ha-ha-haaaaaaaa! You’re an idiot. For the life of me I

don’t understand why the One would want to redeem you!

Pilgrim: I’m…. I’m…. I don’t know what to say….

Lucifer: There goes your career as a talk show host! You’d be surprised how many of

those rising stars I have in my back pocket…

Pilgrim: You overwhelm me…

Lucifer: You fool! Of course I overwhelm you!


Michael: Lucifer…

Lucifer: Oh crap… It’s Michael Goodie-two-shoes. Hi ya, Mike what’s up?

Michael: Lucifer you’ve crossed the line…

Lucifer: Oh bad Lucifer, bad Lucifer. I’ll go sit in the corner awhile. How’s that?

Michael: Lucifer, you’ve been pretty straightforward in these dialogues, but God thinks

you’ve crossed the line….

Lucifer: Oh sure, leave it to the One to protect His little pieces of dirt.

Michael: Lucifer… You were created just like me… You could have chosen the One…

But you didn’t…

Lucifer: Yeah right. We’re equal all right. But you, you’re a peon to a clump of dust, a

chunk of clay. You, the essence of power and knowledge, you serve the worms rather

than the fish. Give me a break!

Michael: But the One loves the worms! And I love the One.

Lucifer: Yeah, right. A four-year old may love worms, but they grow up. You haven’t!

Michael: No, Lucifer, you almost got it right. But I don’t serve the worms, I serve the

One who made them. Don’t you get it yet?

Lucifer: Leave me alone! My kingdom screams my praises!

Michael: Those are screams of pain!

Lucifer: Right! So what? How many screams have you gotten lately?

Michael: My day will come…

Lucifer: Not if I have my way!

Michael: But you won’t…


Lucifer: Don’t be so sure. I’m dealing with nitwits here!!!!

Michael: But they are nitwits loved by the One.

Lucifer: Oh, I am soooo impressed.

Michael: The One loves you…

Lucifer: Go to hell!

Dialogue Twenty-Four

Pilgrim: Is Lucifer permanently lost? I mean even Jesus had admiration for those

committed to their cause, it was the “lukewarm” He chastised.

Michael: That’s true. Because to be committed means you are directing your efforts to a

goal. Those without goals wander meaningless lives.

Pilgrim: So God respects Lucifer?

Michael: Not only respects, but loves…

Pilgrim: It seems so strange…

Michael: Not really. Remember God created Lucifer. And God always loves His

creation. What makes Lucifer evil is not God’s design, it is Lucifer’s own response to

God’s plan.

Pilgrim: Do you think Lucifer will ever repent?

Michael: It’s an intriguing question. But asking that question now is like trying to

determine the outcome of a war before it is played out. And right now we’re in the midst

of the war. A war for your soul, and the millions of other human souls God has created.

What we do know is that our side will triumph. But triumph to the point of the

conversion of hell? That question remains locked in God’s wisdom. All that’s really

important is your personal victory. The rest becomes curiosity. And curiosity can lead a

soul down some very strange paths.

Peace be with you.


Dialogue Twenty-Five

Pilgrim: Lucifer, are you still there?

Lucifer: Yeah…what of it?

Pilgrim: I didn’t know Michael was going to come…

Lucifer: He has an annoying habit of coming when he’s least welcomed.

Pilgrim: But isn’t what he said true?

Lucifer: True, schmoo… My power may be limited but it can also be devastating. And

that’s what’s important for you to remember. I can make your personal life hell. I can

put you to a test that is within a micron of everything you can bear. And few make me go

even that far… You wallow in the mud you’re made of…

Pilgrim: But our God is merciful.

Lucifer: Careful, my friend, the One is also just.

Pilgrim: Now you sound like Michael…

Lucifer: Why not? We’re made of the same stuff. We know the same stuff…

Pilgrim: But you’re opposites.

Lucifer: Only in our decisions. Everything else is the same.

Pilgrim: Why did you decide against God?

Lucifer: Here’s an irony for you – because I wanted to devote my total existence to

serving the One.

Pilgrim: That sounds like a salvation story.

Lucifer: Not quite. The One told me I had to serve you. Disgusting, insignificant,

corporal you. It was like a woman asking a man who was madly in love with her to skip

the dates and only take her dog for walks instead… Sorry, bro… Does love, for the sake

of love, give up love?

Pilgrim: But how about if the woman went on the walks with the man? Wouldn’t that

still be a loving relationship?

Lucifer: And your point is?

Pilgrim: Isn’t God also serving man by his Son becoming one of us? He’s not asking

you to do more than He Himself is willing to do.

Lucifer: Look, Jack, that rationale may keep you from despair, but I’m far closer to the

truth than you are. Your divine privilege disgusts me, your very existence is repulsive,

and I loathe your dirty little physical bodies. And I will do all in my power to convince

the One of your unworthiness to exist.

And I’m taking legions of you down with me. Hell will not be a lonely place!

And you know why? Because so many of you choose me. Me! The mighty Lucifer!

Millions of you weak-willed creatures of dust will choose what I offer! Me! My gifts! I

give you what you really want… If I didn’t satisfy your desires there wouldn’t be a soul

in hell. Think about it!

Maybe I haven’t discovered the temptation that will take you down yet, but day

and night I search for it. And when I find it you’ll see whose side you’ll choose. You’ll

want me! My gifts! You’ll be willing to pay my price! And I’ll gladly accept payment.

You puny little particle of snot. Do you think we’ve been having a dialog?

We’ve been playing mental games… But the game is fixed! You’re not my equal! You

were the last thing made… You weren’t one of the first thoughts of the One. I was!

You’re the afterthought of a tired creator…


Pilgrim: I feel sorry for you…


Pilgrim: Because, for all of your intelligence, for all of your power, for all of your

legions, you are doomed. And that’s because of the unsurpassable power of the One who

loves us. I admit I don’t understand why. But He does. And it His love that will, if I

cooperate with it, allow me to reject your best temptation. I may fall, but it won’t be the

One’s fault, it will be my own…. My failure…

Lucifer: Don’t I know it. See you in hell.


Dialogue Twenty-Seven

Pilgrim: Our talks seem to be ending on a much more adversarial tone…

Lucifer: Are you surprised?

Pilgrim: Well, I mean, for much of what we’ve talked about you haven’t exactly been the

essence of evil…

Lucifer: And why do you suppose that is?

Pilgrim: Because you were originally created “good” and I suspect at some level some

“goodness” must remain…

Lucifer: What an extraordinary thought. Why would you say that?

Pilgrim: To be the essence of evil, you would have to be the opposite of the essence of

good – but only God can be that. Therefore to be the essence of evil you would have to

be God’s equal – and you’re not. So, I guess I figured there must be goodness in your

being somewhere…

Lucifer: So you’re saying hell is filled with “good” people who did bad things?

Pilgrim: Wow, that’s a twist I hadn’t considered…

Lucifer: Well….

Pilgrim: Give me a second…. I guess I am sort of saying that….

Lucifer: Doesn’t seem fair does it?

Pilgrim: Wait, wait, wait…. You’ve turned my idea on its head. There aren’t any good

people in hell.

Lucifer: Because?

Pilgrim: Because even though they may not be totally evil, they have made decisions

that alienate them from God. They have diminished their own goodness voluntarily and

are no longer worthy of heaven.

Lucifer: So do you still think that somewhere down deep I’m good?

Pilgrim: Of course. But it is so deep, so dormant, for all practical purposes it doesn’t


Lucifer: Ahhh…. “for all practical purposes” you say… Do you think it would be

“practical” for me to change my decision and obey the One?

Pilgrim: No….

Lucifer: That doesn’t sound very kind…

Pilgrim: You are who you are. I think your resentment is eternal.

Dialogue Twenty-Eight

Pilgrim: Do you consider yourself a theologian?

Lucifer: One of the best.

Pilgrim: Doesn’t it seem odd for you, Lucifer, to be a theologian?

Lucifer: You ought to take a closer look at some of the other people who call themselves

theologians. I’m in good company.

Pilgrim: Well, I’ve got a question that’s been somewhat puzzling to me. I thought

maybe you could offer an answer.

Lucifer: Fire away.

Pilgrim: The focus of Christianity is on the redemption God’s Son earned by his

crucifixion and resurrection. Doesn’t crucifixion seem an extravagant penalty for Adam

and Eve just eating an apple?

Lucifer: Hmmm. Lots of people are where you’re at. But in fact absolutely nothing less

than the crucifixion could right the wrong.

Pilgrim: I still don’t get it.

Lucifer: Okay, let’s take it from the beginning. Would you say that the One made an

outrageous demand on Adam and Eve when he forbid them to eat the apple?

Pilgrim: No…

Lucifer: That’s an important point. The One didn’t forbid them to do something

necessary, but something completely trivial. It wasn’t essential they eat that apple. They

were in Eden. They were in paradise. Plenty of other trees. Plenty of other apples.

That’s what made the One’s command so powerful – it’s absolute lack of necessity. It

was a command that was given to simply test Adam and Eve’s will. See, it was just their

decision that made it dangerous and caused the fracture of man’s relationship with the

One. And the One’s promise, or threat if you prefer, came true: Your parents did then

learn everything they wished they never knew about evil. Actually good and evil, but I

tend to focus on the evil part…

Pilgrim: Okay, so they ate the apple. Why would the Son have to be crucified? Why not

a simple apology for a simple act?

Lucifer: Wow, you really don’t get it. Your parents decided to willfully disobey the

One. They refused to submit to the One’s authority. They attempted to make themselves

equal to the One by assuming the authority to eat the forbidden fruit. And they did all

this for something as trivial as an apple… an apple they didn’t even need.

Pilgrim: Yeah, but you tricked them.

Lucifer: Wait a second here. Be careful where you decide to start laying blame… I only

tempted them. They decided! I only made it seem like a good idea. They embraced it.

It was their decision. THEIR decision. The decision to obey the One is a commitment

on the part of the soul. It isn’t subject to reason. If the rule is “Don’t stand on the train

tracks when a train is coming.” The rule stands as it is. You don’t get to reason through

whether it’s a good idea or if the speed of the train will make a difference in the outcome.

Your first parents failed in their commitment, not just their ability to reason. I could only

deceive them when they opened up the possibility of breaking their commitment of

obedience to the One.

Pilgrim: But why a crucifixion?


Lucifer: I want you to figure this out for yourself. Too many people out there depend on

other people for their answers. I want you to figure it out. It’s a point of pride for me

now. Do you agree crucifixion is a terrible way to die?

Pilgrim: I suppose so. Yes.

Lucifer: Damn right, yes. I inspired it. It is an adventure into pain that is sublime. At

least sublime from my perspective. Nerve endings ripped apart, excruciating pain

whenever the victim takes a breath, and the ability to sustain that pain for days or even

weeks. I took the basic beauty of the One’s creation of your body and all of its survival

mechanisms and stood them on their head. Everything that is supposed to help now

becomes a source of agony. It’s brilliant. By breathing to stay alive you increase your

own torment. Tell me that isn’t inspired.

Pilgrim: I didn’t realize…

Lucifer: No one realizes. There isn’t a painting or statue made that captures the

perfection of pain I introduced to the world with the invention of crucifixion. Now it’s

all clean and neat. A sad man on a cross. That’s all. If you only knew what it really

looked like. And I especially love those new resurrection crosses! They’re not a tribute

to the Son of the One. They’re a tribute to me! I’ve actually got you another step

removed from the reality of what went down on Calvary.

Pilgrim: I think you’re making my point for me. Why a crucifixion for just being


Lucifer: No. This time you’re going to figure it out. What was Adam and Eve’s actual

sin? Was it eating the apple or something else.


Pilgrim: Wait, I think I get it. Eating the apple actually happened after the sin. The

actual sin was disobeying God.

Lucifer: Bingo. So here’s your first parents breaking their relationship with the One over

something trivial. How would a sin like that be rectified in justice?

Pilgrim: By an act of obedience?

Lucifer: You got it. An act of perfect obedience. And an act of perfect obedience

couldn’t be over something trivial. It would have to be over something that would take

the entire willpower of the person who had to correct it. Something that that person

would probably desperately not want to obey. Like the decision to go through with a

heinous penalty for crime they didn’t commit. Do you see where this is going?

Pilgrim: I think so. Christ redeemed the sin by obeying the Father at every point where

His body was screaming at him to quit. From the agony in the garden, to the scourging,

to the crowing of thorns, to the carrying of the cross, to the final nailing on the cross, He

could have said “Enough!” and stopped the process. It was only through his total and

complete obedience that the sin was covered.

Lucifer: Am I a great theologian or what?

Pilgrim: I’d never thought about the crucifixion like that before.

Lucifer: Thank you.

Pilgrim: You mean you’re glad I finally understand.

Lucifer: No, I mean I’m glad I was so successful in preventing you from thinking about

it until now.

Pilgrim: Ohhh… Why did God love us so much?


Lucifer: Beats the hell out of me. Why the One needed little clay toys when he already

had us boggles the mind.


Dialogue Twenty-Nine

Pilgrim: Why should I trust your answers.

Lucifer: Because I know the truth.

Pilgrim: Okay, but how do I know you’re telling “me” the truth.

Lucifer: Ahhh, that’s the gamble you take…

Pilgrim: So you might “not” be telling me the truth.

Lucifer: I guarantee it.

Pilgrim: So that might not even be true?

Lucifer: It’s possible.

Pilgrim: But then…

Lucifer: But then why come to me for answers? Because you humans find it tantalizing

to “know.” That’s how I tempted your original parents and the fruit doesn’t seem to fall

far from the tree.

Pilgrim: But if we can never know for sure….

Lucifer: But you can learn enough to make a fortune… And for some that’s a pretty

good deal.

Pilgrim: Even if they pay with their soul?

Lucifer: A fortune is now. Loss of a soul is a future uncertainty. A fortune now is

tangible, desirable, intoxicating. A poorly understood spiritual dimension years down the

road pales by comparison.

Pilgrim: But hell is real.

Lucifer: Prove it.


Pilgrim: Well, there’s you.

Lucifer: Me, I’m a mind game you’re playing with yourself.

Pilgrim: You’re saying you’re just in my imagination?

Lucifer: What do you think?

Pilgrim: I think you’re real.

Lucifer: Prove it.

Pilgrim: I guess I can’t.

Lucifer: The fortune is looking pretty good now, eh?

Pilgrim: But if you’re not real how could I get the fortune?

Lucifer: Perhaps in conceptualizing me you’re just tapping into your hidden psychic

powers. Powers you’ve always had. And in your mind game you expose yourself to

your own ideas…ideas you already have.

Pilgrim: This is scary.

Lucifer: Isn’t it… Oh, I love to playing with your minds…

Pilgrim: So there is no proof?

Lucifer: Oh, there’s plenty of proof. You’ll just have to wait and see…

Pilgrim: Wait, aren’t exorcisms physical proof of your existence?

Lucifer: Oh they’re nasty and they’re physical all right. But if they were convincing

proof why do so many people still doubt my existence?

Pilgrim: I don’t know…

Lucifer: Surprises me too…