Protests Demanding Mubarak’s Resignation

Grow Stronger, Despite Some Government

Concessions
Newly-appointed Egyptian vice president Omar Suleiman held talks on Sunday with opposition
groups in Cairo in an attempt to stem the anti-government protests that continue across the
country. Suleiman agreed to several major concessions, including ending the country’s decades-
old emergency laws (he did not say when), allowing a free press (even as another Al Jazeera
reporter was arrested), and creating a constitutional reform committee. The top demand of
demonstrators--the immediate removal of President Hosni Mubarak-was not addressed. Protests
continue today across Egypt, and tens of thousands of demonstrators have held their ground in
Tahrir Square amidst a heavy military presence. We go to Cairo to speak with Democracy Now!
senior producer Sharif Abdel Kouddous and Hossam Bahgat, an Egyptian human rights activist.
[includes rush transcript]

Filed under Egypt, Sharif Abdel Kouddous

Guests:

Sharif Abdel Kouddous, Democracy Now! senior producer, who is reporting from Cairo, Egypt.
Hossam Bahgat, Egyptian human rights activist and the founder and executive director of the
Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights.

AMY GOODMAN: In the latest developments in Egypt, newly appointed vice president Omar
Suleiman held talks Sunday with opposition groups in Cairo in an attempt to stem the anti-
government protests which continue across the country. While Suleiman agreed to several major
concessions, including ending the country’s decades-old emergency laws, allowing a free press,
and creating a committee to propose constitutional reforms, the number one demand of protesters
—the immediate removal of President Hosni Mubarak from power—was not addressed.
Participants at the meeting included members of secular opposition parties, members of the
business community, some youth representatives. In a move that’s been called "highly
significant," the banned Muslim Brotherhood was also included in the talks.

Speaking on Sunday, the newly appointed secretary general of the ruling NDP Party, Hossam
Badrawi, said he believed the government is being responsive to demands.

HOSSAM BADRAWI: [translated] Lifting the emergency state once the security situation is
over is the declared intention, so that the people are reassured. The release of political detainees,
especially those young people from the 25th of January Movement, I think is a strong message
that our attitude has shifted.

AMY GOODMAN: Despite government promises, protests continue today across Egypt. Tens
of thousands of demonstrators held their ground in Tahrir Square amidst a heavy military
presence.

According to the Egyptian newspaper Al-Masry Al-Youm, leaders of several youth organizations,
calling themselves the Coalition of the Angry Youth Uprising, said they would not agree to
negotiations with the regime until the primary demand of Mubarak’s resignation was met. They
also said the involvement of youth activists at the talks Sunday was not to negotiate but to
convey their list of demands.

Meanwhile, leading opposition figure and Nobel Peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei said he was
not invited to the talks, although representatives of his group, the National Association for
Change, was present. Speaking with David Gregory on NBC’s Meet the Press, ElBaradei called
the government’s intentions "opaque." He also reiterated the demand that President Mubarak step
down and said a caretaker interim government should be appointed until elections could be held.

MOHAMED ELBARADEI: There is still a huge lack of confidence between the government
and the demonstrators. There’s a good deal of fear that the government will return and then come
back, you know, again, with vengeance, if you like. The process is opaque. The regime, which he
represents, lost legitimacy, and he needs to assume political responsibility and step aside and get
the country to move on and cede power to a transitional presidential council, a caretaker
government, and have a year of transition where we can really have free and fair election,
including—which I haven’t heard from Richard—including the right to establish parties. That is
key, for people to establish parties and to take the time to go and engage. And then you will have,
you know, among other guarantees, fair and free election in a year’s time from now. Suspend the
constitution, suspend the parliament, have a provisional constitution. We cannot go through
democracy through the current constitution, which is a dictatorial one.

AMY GOODMAN: We go now to Cairo, where we’re joined by Democracy Now! senior
producer Sharif Abdel Kouddous.

Sharif, welcome to Democracy Now! We’re also joined by Hossam Bahgat, an Egyptian human
rights activist. It’s great to have you back in a studio, Sharif. It has been a remarkable 14 days.
This is day 14 of the uprising in Egypt. Before we talk about anything else, talk about what’s
happening on the ground right now, in Tahrir Square and around Cairo.

SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Well, Amy, we saw yesterday was the Sunday—what they call
the Sunday of Martyrs, and tens of thousands of people filled Tahrir Square. I was surprised to
see the level of—the number of people that showed up yesterday. And it was a very festive
atmosphere, a lot of families, a lot of children. What appeared to be fewer of the Muslim
Brotherhood were in attendance yesterday. And a lot of people were carrying pictures of the
dead, what they call the martyrs who were killed in the revolution. And they say, if this was a
revolution, then they are martyrs.

And what they continue to stress is that even the most minimum of demands that they have
called for have not been met. The Mubarak regime continues to make these so-called
concessions. None of these concessions are things that the protesters have called for. These
negotiations that took place yesterday, members of the April 6 Youth Movement were not
represented at the table. They say they want the Mubarak regime’s ouster, and after that, then
they can look to talks. That is their number one principal demand, and that has not yet been met.

Joining me here in Cairo is Hossam Bahgat. He’s the director of the Egyptian Initiative for
Personal Rights. And Hossam, a lot of the talk right now is about constitutional changes,
dissolving parliament, and the resignation of the president. And one of the issues that people say
is that the president—if the president resigns first, then these changes cannot be implemented.
They’re trying workarounds. What is the latest?

HOSSAM BAHGAT: Look, the consensus amongst everyone is right now that the solution can
only begin with Mubarak stepping down. Now, there are some differences, technical differences,
about, you know, whether he should resign fully, immediately, or whether he should step aside by
delegating all of his powers to the vice president, like he did when he was hospitalized in 2004
and later in 2010, and then, in a couple of weeks, resign once we have ensured that we the
provisions that are necessary for a meaningful presidential election. I am of the view that if
Mubarak is to resign immediately, then it is 100 percent certain that Omar Suleiman will be
elected within 60 days as president for a full presidential term of six years. That is not a prospect
that would satisfy me as an advocate for democracy and human rights and someone who wants to
see a real end to three decades of Mubarak rule. And Omar Suleiman’s succession will
unfortunately be a continuation, in my view, of the Mubarak regime and the violations
perpetrated under Mubarak. So I am of the view that Mubarak must immediately step down by
delegating all of his authorities to his vice president, that we need within a couple of weeks to
put to a public referendum some amendments of the constitutional provisions to make sure that
we can have free and fair presidential elections.

AMY GOODMAN: Hossam—

SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: And what are these amendments to the—sorry, go ahead,
Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: Just before you get to the amendments, Sharif, I wanted to ask Hossam, as
you talk about Omar Suleiman, exactly what are your concerns with him? You are a human rights
activist. We have reported on his working closely with the U.S. CIA with extraordinary rendition.
Why don’t you lay out for us who this man is who was just chosen by Mubarak in the last week
to be his vice president?
HOSSAM BAHGAT: Sure. Look, Amy, he’s been in this position as director of the Egyptian
General Intelligence Service since 1993, but obviously we only learned about this in 2007,
because up until then, he was not a public persona. We did not know who the head of our
intelligence service was. Since 2007, he started to appear, but again, we only knew how he
looked like and we knew his name. We knew absolutely nothing about him, until, of course,
some truth started emerging about the U.S.-led so-called war on terror. And of course his name
started featuring prominently in all the books that came out, the documents that were obtained
through some of Freedom of Information requests and litigation in the United States, and that’s,
of course, when we started to find out that he was the most reliable partner in the Middle East in
the extraordinary rendition program. He oversaw the transfer and interrogation of terror suspects,
not just in Egypt but in other countries of the region.

And then, of course, there is the post-WikiLeaks era, in which we started to also read transcripts
of private meetings that he held with some U.S. officials. And in them, we started to also find out
more about his involvement in domestic affairs, not just in foreign policy issues, but also his role
in the starvation of the people of Gaza, his role in using the economic blockade that the Egyptian
government has been involved in, in order to pressure the Gazans to turn against Hamas and to
pressure Hamas, as well, to accept to sign a deal in, you know, the Egyptian-brokered
reconciliation with Fatah.

And interestingly, it is exactly this that he’s been trying also with the protesters in Tahrir now,
using economics, citing economic hardships, to turn the people against the protesters and also
trying to control, at least for a few days, until very recently, trying to prohibit people from taking
food and medical supplies and blankets into Tahrir Square for the protesters. And then, most
recently, since his appointment as a vice president, he’s given one long TV interview with state
television in which, of course, it became very clear that, you know, he accused all those that
insisted on remaining in Tahrir Square despite the violence and the shootings and the food
deprivation, he accused all of us of implementing a foreign agenda. And he, you know, used
implicit—and then, later, very explicit—threats of retaliation against us.

Yesterday, with the round of negotiations, or so-called dialogue, that he had with some
representatives of political forces, again, it became very clear that he does not enter these
negotiations on an equal footing with representatives of the protesters. He sent everyone home
and then decided to deliver a statement of what he called a consensus that resulted from these
consultations. And later, we had a number of political—of representatives of political forces,
most importantly the Muslim Brotherhood, saying, "That is not true. You know, we did not agree
to these things. This was only a protocol session. It is the first session of this dialogue. Each one
of us expressed their views, and then we were told that we will be invited back. And suddenly,
we were surprised to see Suleiman announcing the understandings or agreements, as he called
them, to Egyptian television." And, of course, in this announcement that Suleiman made, he said,
"No, the president is not going to resign. No, the president is not going to delegate his powers to
his vice president. And no, we’re not going to lift the state of emergency immediately; we’re
only going to do this when there is no longer a security threat," which, of course, the government
of Egypt says has been since 1981.

AMY GOODMAN: Hossam Bahgat, we are going to break. Sharif, we’re going to come back to
this discussion after the break. Hossam Bahgat is an Egyptian human rights activist, founder and
executive director of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. He is in Cairo with Democracy
Now! senior producer Sharif Abdel Kouddous. We’ll hear more from them in a moment.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: We are covering the uprising in Egypt. It is the 14th day. Schools are
closed, stock exchange closed. Thousands of protesters remain in Tahrir Square. We are joined in
Cairo by Democracy Now! senior producer Sharif Abdel Kouddous, as well as Hossam Bahgat,
the Egyptian human rights activist, founder and executive director of the Egyptian Initiative for
Personal Rights, who just was talking about the record of the newly appointed vice president,
Omar Suleiuman, who, by the way, was trained at the U.S. Special Warfare School at Fort Bragg.

Sharif, why don’t you continue the discussion?

SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Well, Hossam, after President Mubarak gave this so-called
concession speech last Tuesday, promising not to run again, what we saw was a crackdown and a
crackdown on Tahrir Square, with the attack by the baltaguia, which you were there on
Wednesday. On Thursday, we saw a roundup of human rights lawyers, human rights activists.
Talk about the reaction of the government after that point.

HOSSAM BAHGAT: Sure. Look, Sharif, I’ve been monitoring the human rights violations in
Egypt for 10 years now. And so, you know, it came as no surprise to anyone that Mubarak broke
yet another promise. I mean, his rule—throughout his rule, he has been repeatedly breaking his
promises, especially when it comes to human rights and civil liberties. What did come as a shock
to many Egyptians was, of course, the fact that this also extended to the Vice President. Since he
was appointed, of course, the violations did not stop, in terms of people being arrested, in terms
of the use of violence against protesters, and then, suddenly, the use of snipers even shooting and
killing protesters as they stood in Tahrir Square, and later, the harassment of foreign journalists
and breaking into the offices of a human rights organization, arresting everyone, etc.

Another turning point, unfortunately, was yesterday when the army arrested a journalist for the
first time, working for Al Jazeera. That was the first time that—

SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: That was Ayman Mohyeldin.

HOSSAM BAHGAT: Exactly. That was the first time that we had received any report of the
army itself detaining someone solely for being a journalist. And they perfectly knew that this was
Ayman Mohyeldin from Al Jazeera English. A few days before, last Thursday, as you mentioned,
it was the military police. So it was, again, army officers that raided the offices the Hisham
Mubarak Law Center, which has been providing legal aid to protesters but also, of course, acting
as a liaison office for all of us who have been volunteering for the Front to Defend Egypt
Protesters. Everyone inside was detained, including representatives from Amnesty International
and Human Rights Watch, and then they were released two days later.

So, you know, of course, these are—I mean, when I answered Amy’s question about the record
of Omar Suleiman and why the majority of not just the human rights community, but also people
who are advocating for change and advocating for reform, see Omar Suleiman as Mubarak the
second. It is not just because of his, you know, long record or even more recent record, but it’s
also because he oversaw these violations, or at least he knew about them. And, you know, on
perhaps a less significant or less dramatic but equally significant level, he has so far failed to
even express condolences to the families of the hundreds that have been murdered by the regime.
I mean, we’re not talking about an apology or prosecution; he has not even said, you know, "We
express condolences to the families." And again, that would be a very significant shift. But
everything that we’re hearing now reminds us of Mubarak, and that terrifies us.

And perhaps that is the main reason why people in my organization and other organizations are
saying, please don’t hold presidential elections now, because only Suleiman is going to win in
these presidential elections. We have to change the rules governing these elections. We have to
open up the process so that people like ElBaradei and Amr Moussa and also representatives of
these young people who planned and led this revolution can stand in the presidential elections.
We need to make sure that the millions of Egyptians living abroad, at least six million, get to
vote for the first time. Right now they’re not allowed to vote. We need to make sure that the
elections are conducted under full judicial supervision with full involvement of both Egyptian
and international civil society monitors. And we need to make sure that any elected president is
only allowed to serve for no more than two terms. Before we can introduce these changes, an
immediate resignation of Mubarak and presidential elections are going to be a disaster for at least
a full presidential term of six years.

AMY GOODMAN: In a move that suggests that Egypt might be in new political territory, the
banned Muslim Brotherhood participated in the talks Sunday. For years, the Egyptian
government has labeled the group a terrorist organization. While the Muslim Brotherhood didn’t
participate in the organizing of the first demonstrations on January 25th, the group is the largest
and most well-organized opposition in Egypt. Speaking on Sunday after the talks, a
spokesperson for the Muslim Brotherhood said they have no demands other than the demands of
the people.

ISSAM ERYAN: [translated] We have declared clearly that we do not have a private agenda and
that since the regime implicated itself in shedding blood and killing people and trying to evade
consequence, it does not have any choice but to respond to the call of the people for the president
to step down, to annul the parliament, and to eliminate emergency laws and liberate the judiciary.
Today we held a meeting after which we declared that we accepted the call to dialogue, so that
we can find out the intention of the regime and if they are able to get the country out of the crisis
they got the country into themselves. We do not have any other demands besides the demands of
the people.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Issam Eryan, spokesperson for the Muslim Brotherhood. Hossam,
your response? Also, all of the criticism that you are talking about, also shared by the
Brotherhood and others after these talks, saying that no agreement was arrived at. And they’re
saying they don’t trust the Egyptian government.

HOSSAM BAHGAT: Right. Look, Amy, as a campaigner for civil liberties, for full equality, for
the rights of religious minorities and the rights of women, of course, I disagree with the Muslim
Brotherhood on many issues. But the Brothers have been our partners in this revolution. This has
been a revolution by all Egyptians for all Egyptians. And, I mean, we all—you know, Amy,
remember the last time we spoke, or I called your show, we were about to witness what looked
like it was going to be a massacre in Tahrir Square. It was on Thursday. There was a lineup of
ambulance cars. They were evacuating the foreign journalists. They were raiding the offices of
human rights groups. They were cutting the transmission of all cameras from Tahrir Square.
There were all the signs that we were about to witness a Chinese-style massacre of everyone that
dared to remain in the square after the brutal violence the day before. And in fact, we owe our
lives now in a large part to the courage shown by many of the members of the Muslim Brothers
that actually confronted the military tanks and, you know, lost many of them. And many of the
martyrs are actually members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

But as Sharif said earlier, I mean, we are now seeing everyone come back to the square, as well. I
mean, it’s the middle class, it’s women, it’s children, it’s artists and directors and filmmakers and
actors—everyone. And the mood is very festive again. And we don’t have a single report of the
Muslim Brotherhood members trying to impose any restrictions on any of the participants or, you
know, any inconvenience even anyone. And so, and the fact that the protesters are back on the
square now and, if you want, were all feeling exuberant again in the square is, I think, due to a
large extent to the perseverance of thousands and thousands of members of the Muslim Brothers
that actually protected literally this physical space for us over the weekend.

We, of course, welcome the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood were included in this ongoing
political process. I mean, they agree with us that a solution could only start with Mubarak
stepping aside or stepping down. And this is, like I said—I mean, there seems to be a unanimous
agreement on this right now. But the fact they were invited by the Vice President, who is, you
know, their worst enemy, of course, as we know from WikiLeaks, again, within the government
—the fact that they were invited makes sure that not only they exercise the right in being part of
the political process, participate in public life, express and organize themselves, but also it is
another loss to the regime. Of course, we know, primarily from U.S. media, that they were
included in this process in part under pressure from the United States, because they want to see
them included in the process so that the risk of them taking over, which is a fear that is
widespread in the West, is minimized. But nonetheless, it is very significant.

They came out of these consultations, and not only Mr. Eryan, but Mr. Katatni, who is the former
head of the parliamentary bloc, and other senior leaders actually said, you know, "We did not
agree to anything that falls short of meeting the full demands of the protesters, starting with
Mubarak stepping aside. There is not going to be a solution of this crisis without Mubarak’s
departure."

AMY GOODMAN: Also, according to Al-Masry Al-Youm, the Muslim Brotherhood’s youth
wing boycotted the talks.