Competing Views On Germany's Immigrants

SPIEGEL ONLINE - Druckversion - Debating Integration: Co... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-747...
02/25/2011 05:12 PM
Debating Integration
Competing Views on Germany's Immigrants

Immigration is a heated topic in Germany. SPIEGEL recently sat down with two experts -- a
Turkish-born sociologist and a German-born journalist -- to explore the issue. And found
that a reasoned debate is difficult to come by.
SPIEGEL: Ms. Kelek, are you a scaremonger in the debate over the role of Islam in Germany, as Mr.
Bahners claims in his book?
Necla Kelek: I just write down what I see, I participate in this absolutely necessary debate, and I
have assumed an aggressive stance. But I'm not at all engaging in scaremongering.
Patrick Bahners: In this country, there is a degree of panic as well as a widespread -- and solidly
justified -- fear of terrorist attacks. But there is also a fear that every Muslim who lives according to
the Koran is a potential terrorist. Authors and journalists feed this unease and you, Ms. Kelek, are the
most effective one and have acquired the most authority.
Kelek: I speak and write about Islam as a political system, one in which people live and one that is
supported and controlled by people. But you, Mr. Bahners, always only focus on individual Muslims
and defend their right to live a religious life. I have no problem with people being entitled to practice
their own faith.
Bahners: The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (or BfV, Germany's domestic
intelligence agency) and a vigilant public are concerned about political Islam, which aims to do away
with Germany's constitution. But, in your criticism, you take things a bit further. You don't like the
idea that (political Islam) puts God's law above all secular agreements. But even the Bible states that
man must obey God more than other people, and there are Christians who still view this statement as
valid.
Kelek: Not all religions are the same. There are religions that have modernized and found a place for
themselves in the secular world. They adjust themselves to work for people who can calibrate their
faith according to their own needs. Their societal framework also allows them to do this. Islamic
countries don't give people this right; they have no religious freedom. Even the question of whether
or not someone is a Muslim is a political question that can bear consequences. One cannot join or
abandon this religion.
SPIEGEL: Ms. Kelek, how would Islam have to change to be more acceptable to you?
Kelek: I live Islam in the way that I think religion should be lived. After all, I'm a religious person.
SPIEGEL: What does religion mean to you in your day-to-day existence?
Kelek: When I find myself in situations without solutions from this world, I pray. When my mother
died a few months ago, we gave her a religious burial. In that situation, my faith was very important
to me. That's when I'm grateful that I can pray and that my faith can support me in a crisis. I can say
that I sent my mother to Allah, and that He will take good care of her. But then I return to my life as
a critically thinking person and re-assume my prerogative to think rationally about the Islamic
system.
SPIEGEL: In that respect, Mr. Bahners and Ms. Kelek, your positions aren't really that far apart.
1 of 6 3/2/11 3:43 PM
Bahners: We wouldn't be that far apart, Ms. Kelek, if your political criticisms were only directed
toward the pathological forms of the Islamic system that have developed in some Islamic countries
and have been imported to Germany by immigrants. But your books have a rousing and disturbing
effect on Germany's non-Muslim public, and they have an influence on how it construes this Islamic
system -- as something that was poorly designed from the start because the Koran is viewed as the
true word of God and Muhammad as His prophet. In your view, everything else follows from this
interpretation, including the complete subjugation to paternal authority. For this reason, reforming
Islam would mean throwing everything overboard. If Christians were asked to accept something
similar, most would say no.
SPIEGEL: Ms. Kelek, the Arab world has been in turmoil since the revolution started in Tunisia. Could
Islam be reformed by something like the new constitution in Egypt, which is supposedly being worked
on right now?
Kelek: I'm obviously happy these people are no longer willing to accept oppression and are trying to
get rid of the dictatorship. But I'm not so sure that Egyptians also want to liberate themselves from
Shariah Islam, that they want religious freedom, and that real equality between men and women is
on the agenda. In Egypt, they're saying that democracy is the will of the majority. But, as far as I'm
considered, that is not the only thing democracy is about; it also includes having a constitutional
state.
Bahners: I find that interesting. The world is thrilled about the events in Egypt and sharing in the
Egyptians' excitement. But here you in Germany are telling the Egyptians: "You aren't democrats yet.
You've only arrived at the point of view of (Austro-British philosopher) Karl Popper, and I cannot
accept you as democrats."
Kelek: I didn't say that. But what sort of a country would it be if the Muslim Brotherhood won a
majority and introduced Shariah -- the Islamic legal system that is already one of the foundations of
Egypt's current legal system -- complete with its draconian penalties and misogyny? If that
happened, women in Egypt would be required to wear headscarves. In places where Islamists are
strong, women also have to wear veils. Shariah means living in accordance with God's laws. If things
keep going in this direction, I wouldn't consider it a democracy.
A Difference of Facts and Opinions
SPIEGEL: Mr. Bahners, is this about a collapse of dictatorships? Do you see what's happening in the
Arab world now as the same thing that happened in Europe in 1989?
Bahners: That's the great hope. It that happens, people could live under civil conditions with things
such as legal protections for people of other faiths. If people there invoke Shariah, it could also mean
they want a government that makes laws in keeping with God's commandments. Of course, these
laws must develop as part of a political decision-making process. Tareq el-Bishri, the legal philosopher
who was appointed chairman of the commission tasked with revising Egypt's constitution, argues that
religious freedom is an Islamic tradition in need of rediscovery. An Islamic democracy doesn't have to
be viewed as something impossible.
Kelek: That's an empty hope. When I look at the situation of women in Egypt, I'm worried: They
may have put oppression under Mubarak behind them, but they might now face oppression under
Shariah Islam. Of course, I hope that young people will finally choose a different path, and we should
support them in that endeavor. But I am paying very close attention to what the Muslim Brothers are
doing -- and I insist on having the right to criticize the social model that the Egyptians ultimately
choose.
Bahners: But you've already compared Islam with fascism in the past.
Kelek: If people decide on a system and feel comfortable with it -- whether it's Islam or fascism --
then I'm entitled to criticize that system. Why shouldn't I have that right, Mr. Bahners?
2 of 6 3/2/11 3:43 PM
Bahners: Of course you have the right to criticize -- even in very hurtful and incisive terms. What I
take issue with is the effect you have on the public.
SPIEGEL: Late last summer, Necla Kelek wasn't the one to have the greatest effect. Instead, that
prize went to Thilo Sarrazin, the then-member of the board of Germany's central bank, with his
controversial book "Germany Is Doing Itself Away." Why is it that you're more upset about Ms.
Kelek's ideas than his?
Bahners: As far as Sarrazin is concerned, I agree with (Chancellor Angela Merkel's comment that)
this book is "not helpful." And when it comes to his criticisms of Muslim immigrants, he embraces Ms.
Kelek's ideas. Ms. Kelek stirred up the broader public with her book "The Foreign Bride" -- and rightly
so because, in it, she sharply criticizes customs such as forced marriages and honor killings. However,
large segments of the public -- including many politicians -- have accepted the greatly exaggerated
notion that these barbaric and deplorable customs derive from the religious tenets of Islam. Ms. Kelek
has made a considerable contribution to furthering this phantom conception.
Kelek: What you call a "phantom" actually helped lead then-Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble to
convene the Islam Conference (in 2006) to address these issues. Laws have been changed, and the
public has begun talking about schools with large populations of immigrant students. We have
achieved a lot. This isn't a "phantom;" it's a reality, an Islamic reality.
Bahners: But you manipulate the public…
Kelek: …and you accuse it of being racist.
Bahners: No!
Kelek: I play a role in making sure that certain problems are finally taken seriously. We have young
people who are lost because their parents are praying for the afterlife rather than taking care of their
children. These parents would rather send their children to a Koran school than ensure that they live
active lives in and become a part of German society. As a sociologist, I analyze what I see in addition
to what I've experienced in person. I'm trying to find clear answers, but you claim that I incite
resentment -- and that's because you have no faith in German civil society.
Bahners: You emphasize authoritarian control. I have a lot of faith in civil society, and that's why I
hope that this phantom conception -- these dark myths about the Islamic system that every Muslim
supposedly carries in his DNA -- will vanish as quickly as it arose.
Kelek: Mr. Bahner, how can you ignore the fact that Muslim girls are not allowed to take part in
swimming lessons, that they are not allowed to make friends with German girls, and that they have
to be guarded by their brothers instead of being able to learn things in school that will help them
make a future for themselves in Germany?
Bahners: Those are extremely sweeping generalizations because the so-called "facts" in your books,
Ms. Kelek, consist of anecdotes, which are then exaggerated through your radical criticism of religion.
For years, you've claimed that there is a growing number of lawsuits over whether Muslim girls
should have to take part in swimming lessons. This is completely made up; it's simply not true. In
reality, the number of these kinds of lawsuits is extremely small. In most cases, the problems are
resolved in face-to-face meetings with the parents.
Kelek: How many Muslims do you know? What gives you the right to say I don't know anything
about real life?
Bahners: In 2006, at the behest of the Islam Conference, you submitted an expert opinion on the
problem of girls being removed from physical-education and swimming classes. It turned out that it
was based on rumors rather than on solid data.
Kelek: Did you ask about this at any schools?
3 of 6 3/2/11 3:43 PM
Bahners: Fellow journalist Martin Spiewak from (the center-left weekly newspaper) Die Zeit made
inquiries at the schools and found evidence contradicting your account. The (state) education
ministries are unanimous in their view that the problem is not significant. Instead of empirical
evidence, you offer conspiracy theories holding that a select group of do-gooders is making sure
we're not allowed to talk about the problems.
SPIEGEL: Ms. Kelek, are your "facts" anything more than mere impressions?
Kelek: While composing my expert opinion, I went to several schools and discovered that they no
longer even offered swimming classes. The teachers told me the girls didn't come to class even when
they were held. Mr. Bahners, I accuse you of never having spoken with Muslims. You have never
gotten in touch with me once. I have been writing for the features section of the (center-right daily)
Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung for five years. Even though you're the editor of that section, you've
avoided all contact with me.
Bahners: That's completely untrue. I have not avoided any discussions with you. Please don't spread
a rumor that I've refused to shake your hand!
Kelek: Well, I'm talking about something else. You've been trying to find out what reasons I have for
strongly criticizing Islam. In your book, you analyze me and conclude that I want to do away with
Islam because I had a problem with my father for abandoning my family. That's just armchair
psychology. Even after having known me for years as a journalist, you accused me of something this
banal. That was very hurtful. In this country, people try too often to find some private information
they can discredit someone with.
Bahners: You yourself make your life story a subject in your books; you use it to substantiate your
theories. In your book "The Foreign Bride," you describe your father as a secular Muslim through and
through and as a great admirer of (Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the secular founder of modern Turkey).
But when he goes to Germany, the violence of the Islamic system erupts from within him. In your
book, your father is your star witness for this violence within Islam, which continues to overcome
even those who have liberated themselves from it. Given these facts, it seemed natural to assume
that the happiness and freedom you felt after your father left the family -- and which you describe so
enthusiastically -- was being used as a literary trope for what you desire for all other Muslims.
Kelek: I am who I am. My name is Necla Kelek. I report from my own life, and I use it to illustrate
what I have to say about a system. I am not a member of any party or association. I maintain the
right to state my opinion, as I am permitted to do in this country. There are no cliques, no networks,
no unwritten agreements.
Who's the One Sowing Panic?
Bahners: In your work, there are strong similarities with those of other scaremongers, such as
(regular SPIEGEL ONLINE commentator) Henryk Broder and Thilo Sarrazin, in terms of how you think
and express yourself.
Kelek: They incite resentment. But who else contributes to the debate over Islam? If I and others
hadn't voiced any critical opinions, would this debate even exist? No, it wouldn't.
SPIEGEL: It's true that the ideas espoused by you and your colleagues strike a major chord. You are
popular; people applaud you at lectures and round-table discussions; and audiences occasionally
respond to your critics with loud booing. Why do you that's the case?
Kelek: The people coming to these events don't feel that politicians are taking them seriously.
Whether it's in schools, unemployment offices or hospitals, they see that there is no integration. They
see that immigrant girls are not allowed to do the same things their daughters can. Those girls are
watched closely by their brothers; they are not allowed to go on to university; and they are married
off. Should we simply accept this? These citizens feel neglected, so they buy books in which the
4 of 6 3/2/11 3:43 PM
problems and their growing fears are taken seriously instead of ones that just say this is all just
racism pure and simple.
SPIEGEL: German President Christian Wulff has said that " Islam belongs in Germany." Mr. Bahners,
is that a sentiment you can back?
Bahners: Yes, because you can't say that the Muslims are part of Germany if you also say that Islam
will always remain something foreign. In the same way that the church belongs to Christians, the
mosque belongs to Muslims, as does an association of several mosques banding together.
Kelek: The president is ignoring the debate we launched about Islam five years ago. That could
partially be my fault. We have to be able to ask the people in the Muslim associations where their
money comes from as well as which worldview and image of humanity they support. Based on my
experiences as part of the Islam Conference, with the exception of the Alevis, all of the associations
represented there clearly stated that they will not allow the Germans to tell them how to live their
Islam. They are not willing to engage in a critical debate over this religion.
Bahners: As a citizen, it's now my duty to defend the president. From that one sentence, you cannot
infer that what he really meant to say was: "Muslim associations, we will no longer criticize you or
demand that you open yourselves up to democratic society." With your inferences, all you do is inject
more fear into an already anxious German public.
SPIEGEL: Mr. Bahners, do you believe that the fear of Islam is playing into the hands of a new
nationalism?
Bahners: Yes, because you now hear radical slogans that, a few years ago, were only popular within
the extreme right-wing fringe. These slogans state that the Germans should finally show some
self-confidence again and that it is only a sense of guilt regarding their history that keeps them in
bondage. These kinds of slogans are expounded by people who want to found a party after the model
of Geert Wilders. But the same formulations are also used by more mainstream critics of Islam.
Kelek: You know what, Mr. Bahners? Now you are the one sowing panic.
SPIEGEL: Ms. Kelek, Mr. Bahners, thank you for speaking with us.
Interview conducted by Susanne Beyer and Gerhard Spörl
URL:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,747239,00.html
RELATED SPIEGEL ONLINE LINKS:
Where the Germans Speak Gibberish: A Comic Take on the Immigrant Experience
(02/16/2011)
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,745880,00.html
Veiled Debate Arrives in Germany: State Prohibits Burqas at Work for Public
Employees (02/03/2011)
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,743340,00.html
German Rapper on Integration Debate: 'It Is Insulting that Sarrazin Labels Us all Lazy
Muslims' (01/27/2011)
'Well, I Want You to Integrate': Germany's Integration Provocateur Goes English
(01/20/2011)
Riding the Wave of Islamophobia: The German Geert Wilders (01/06/2011)
5 of 6 3/2/11 3:43 PM
Finger Pointing or Tough Talk?: Politician Urges German Muslims To 'Keep an Eye out
for Fanatics' (11/25/2010)
The World from Berlin: 'Should Muslims Be Treated on an Equal Footing?' (10/08
/2010)
Sarrazin's Truths: Political Correctness Is Silencing an Important Debate (09/10
/2010)
SPIEGEL 360: Our Coverage of Muslims in Europe
http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/muslims_in_europe/
© SPIEGEL ONLINE 2011

All Rights Reserved
Reproduction only allowed with the permission of SPIEGELnet GmbH
6 of 6 3/2/11 3:43 PM

Competing Views On Germany's Immigrants - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Transféré par

Informations du document

Description originale:

Titre original

Copyright

Formats disponibles

Partager ce document

Partager ou intégrer le document

Options de partage

Avez-vous trouvé ce document utile ?

Ce contenu est-il inapproprié ?

Droits d'auteur :

Formats disponibles

Competing Views On Germany's Immigrants - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Transféré par

Droits d'auteur :

Formats disponibles

SPIEGEL ONLINE - Druckversion - Debating Integration: Co... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-747...

SPIEGEL: What does religion mean to you in your day-to-day existence?

A Difference of Facts and Opinions

Bahners: But you manipulate the public…

Kelek: …and you accuse it of being racist.

Kelek: Did you ask about this at any schools?

Who's the One Sowing Panic?

Interview conducted by Susanne Beyer and Gerhard Spörl

RELATED SPIEGEL ONLINE LINKS:

© SPIEGEL ONLINE 2011

Vous aimerez peut-être aussi