2004 Debate Three: Alan Keyes and Barack Obama

~ ILLINOIS SENATE RACE 2004 ~
DEBATE THREE:
ALAN KEYES
BARACK OBAMA
2004 DEBATE THREE: ALAN KEYES AND BARACK OBAMA AlanKeyes.com
Alan Keyes and Barack Obama Debate

Sponsored by WTTW and the City Club of Chicago
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October 26, 2004
First, we go to tonight's forum for the candidates for the United States Senate. Here's Phil Ponce.
Phil?
PHIL PONCE, MODERATOR: Thanks, Bob. Here with me in Studio A are two groups of
people. First, in the audience, are members and guests of the City Club of Chicago. The City
Club is helping to underwrite tonight's forum.
With me, here at this table, are the two major-party candidates who want to be Illinois' next
United States senator. They are Republican Alan Keyes, and Democrat Barack Obama.
And, a quick note on procedure. This is not a formal debate. There are no opening or closing
statements, and answers will not be timed. The candidates will not necessarily be asked the same
questions. Our goal is to better inform our audience about the candidates and the issues. We have
a limited amount of time, so we've asked the candidates to be succinct. If they begin to make a
speech, they know I will cut them off.
Mr. Keyes, as you know, three hundred and eighty tons of powerful explosives are missing from
a weapons installation in Iraq. Senator Kerry is calling it "one of the great blunders of the war in
Iraq." You've been generally supportive of the war, but what would you say has been the greatest
blunder of the war?
ALAN KEYES, (R) ILLINOIS U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: Hmm. Well, I'm not sure, in my
opinion, there has been any egregious blundering. I think that there could have been a greater
effort, over the beginning of our efforts there, to bring in others. I would have brought others in
on the political side of the equation, to help deal with the business of putting together an Iraqi
government. I think that could still be done.
But, I think it's absolutely imperative that we keep the security dimensions of the Iraqi war under
the control of the United States, so that we can pursue what ought to be our main objectives,
which is to make sure that Iraq does not become a base for terrorist activity, that we are able to
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make sure a government does not come to power that will aid and abet terrorism, that we are able
to do what's necessary to prevent weapons of mass destruction from falling into the hands of
terrorists.
Those national security goals are the proper goals of our effort, and I think we ought to be
looking to the Iraqi people and to the international community to help deal with the political
dimensions of establishing a stable government there.
PONCE: Senator Obama, you have been critical of the decision to go to war, but what would you
grant has been the biggest success?
BARACK OBAMA, (D) ILLINOIS U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: Well, I think that the initial
military was extraordinarily successful in moving into Iraq, and I think that it exceeded all
expectations, even those of us, like myself, who expected the military to be successful, the initial
incursion into Iraq, were stunned and impressed by how efficient our military and our brave
fighting forces were in executing it.
But, going back to your previous question, I think that three hundred and eighty tons of
explosives that are now being used on roadside bombs is an enormous error, particularly when
the Bush administration had been warned by the Atomic Energy Commission.
I mean, in past debates, Ambassador Keyes has suggested that somehow I'm naïve to question
how we've gone about this war in Iraq. It strikes me that this administration has been naïve
throughout. It was naïve in terms of thinking that we'd be greeted as liberators in Iraq. It's been
naïve in thinking that somehow this would actually diminish recruitment for terrorism. In fact,
it's accelerated it. It's been naïve with respect to how difficult it's gonna be to secure the peace,
and it strikes me that, unfortunately, our troops and our taxpayers are suffering from those errors.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes, naiveté on the part of the administration, on those counts?
KEYES: Well, I think we mustn't rush to judgment, because what I'm hearing, and the media
suggests, [is] that, with respect to these tons of explosives, it's still not clear what the chain of
possession was, and whether or not it was, in fact, after the United States took possession that we
lost track of these explosives.
I also think that all Americans are gonna look at the larger picture of whether or not we have
taken steps that have effectively stopped Saddam Hussein from delivering weapons of mass
destruction to terrorists. The probability of that is zero.
Whether we have in fact established a base that allows us effectively to recruit the kind of
intelligence that we need to deal with this situation in Iran, in Syria, and elsewhere.
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Whether we have discouraged other terrorist-sponsoring states, or potentially terrorist-sponsoring

states, like Syria, like Libya, from continuing with their activities in a way that could result in
death for Americans.
And, I also think we have to keep in mind that the kind of things we are doing in Iraq and in
Afghanistan are only part of the effort we must make against terror, which is to carry the war to
the terrorists themselves, by every means necessary, to find their cells and to wipe them out
before they hit Americans.
And I think that is part of the effort that does require both intelligence and discretion, and it is
going forward.
PONCE: Along those lines, Mr. Obama, name a key vulnerability or weakness that you see in
homeland security that you, as a senator, would address.
OBAMA: Well, I think, our inspections of ports. We are currently inspecting 3% of all incoming
cargo. We could load up a cargo container—a terrorist could load up a cargo container and drive
it straight into the middle of the Loop without significant risk of them being inspected. Our
chemical plants are still unsecured, despite the fact that we know how vulnerable they are. Our
nuclear plants remain unsecured. There are a whole host of domestic priorities that have been
neglected by this administration.
And I have to say that, going back to the issue of Iraq, it is simply not true that Saddam Hussein
was providing weapons of mass destruction to terrorists. There's been no evidence that that was
the case, and this incursion into Iraq has resulted in a situation in which terrorist recruits are up.
It's been acknowledged, now, by the Pentagon, that the estimates of how many insurgents are
active in Iraq is far higher. Terrorist attacks, worldwide, have gone up. They're the highest in
twenty years.
And, the notion that somehow we are less vulnerable in the United States as a consequence of
spending two hundred billion dollars and sacrificing thousands of lives is simply not borne out
by the facts.
PONCE: This is area that both of you have covered, throughout the course of your campaign.
Let's move on to Israel. Mr. Keyes, what role do you think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict plays
in fueling potential terrorism against the United States?
KEYES: Oh, I think that we have seen in the Middle East, unhappily, that in the context of the
ongoing Arab hostility to Israel, it has become an incubator of terrorism. But I think that was
partially because of the response that was there from the rest of the world, including some
previous administrations, the Europeans, and others, who allowed terrorists with the blood still
dripping from their hands to sit down at so-called tables of "peace negotiations," in order to
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collect the ill-gotten gains that they had achieved by going after innocent lives.
PONCE: (attempts interruption)
KEYES: I think that's a great mistake. I think the Bush administration has followed—
PONCE: (talks over) The real question was—if I may interrupt, the real question was, to what
extent is the unresolved nature of the conflict fueling potential terrorism against the United
States? That's what I meant to ask.
KEYES: No, that's not the real question. The real question is whether or not, by making
concessions to terrorists over the course of several decades, we in fact helped to create the
mentality that has then led to a widespread and global threat from terrorism.
If we had made it clear, as the Bush administration has, that we will not negotiate with those who
practice terrorism, then perhaps we wouldn't have encouraged the adoption of terrorism as a
strategic weapon on the part of some Palestinian groups, some in the Arab world, who think that
they have gotten away with it. They have reaped rewards from it. They have killed innocent lives
in Israel, on the Achille Lauro, at the Olympic Games, and at each stage, we were willing to go
forward with a process that then rewarded them for this terrorist death.
I think the real question is whether or not we shouldn't have started to say "no" to terrorism long
before we did. Then, maybe, we wouldn't have been struck on September 11.
PONCE: Mr. Obama, your thoughts on the role Israel plays in the potential motivation of
potential terrorists against the United States.
OBAMA: Well, I think that the ideology—the death cult that's perverted one of the world's great
religions—doesn't need an excuse like Israel to engage in the kind of violence that people like
bin Laden have engaged in.
I think that, obviously, to the extent that we can arrive at a peaceful settlement in the Middle
East, that would be helpful in draining some of the anti-Israeli and anti-American sentiment that
exists there.
But we've gotta take more steps than that. I mean, one of the concerns I have, for example, is that
we have not been particularly aggressive in promoting the establishment of secular schools in the
Middle East, that would be, would counteract, the madrasas that are, basically, the only
education that young, Islamic men are receiving in places like Pakistan.
So, there are a whole host of issues that, I think, we're gonna have to grapple with. This is a
battle of ideas, and not simply a military battle, that we're engaged in in the Middle East, and I
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think that one of the tragedies of the Bush administration is, they've been very neglectful of that
second leg of the battle.
PONCE: Let me ask you this, though, along those lines. Today, the Knesset voted—strong vote
of support to Prime Minister Sharon's plan to withdraw settlements from Gaza. Is that a sign that
the administration's support of Mr. Sharon is well placed?
OBAMA: Well, I think that Mr. Sharon took a enormous risk, and a appropriate risk, in that
particular circumstance, because what you've seen is a failure of the Palestinian leadership to
clamp down on the sort of terrorist activities that had been taking place.
And, for the Israeli government to take this sort of unilateral step, I think, is entirely appropriate
in terms of protecting their people.
Ultimately, what we're gonna have to see is the Arab peoples and the Palestinian people develop
the sort of legitimate political leadership that is able to negotiate in a non-violent fashion, and
have the will to clamp down on terrorism in a way that has not been done.
KEYES: (talking over) What I—
PONCE: Let's move on. Let's move on to—
KEYES: (talking over) What I find it hard to understand—
PONCE: Go ahead.
KEYES: —is, over the course of time, you have criticized the Bush administration time and
again for a so-called "failure to engage in the peace process," when, in point of fact, when they
withdrew and refused to deal with terrorist elements immediately after they had attacked and
killed innocent Israelis, they were, in fact, pursuing the very goal you claim you want to
pursue—because the way to discourage terrorist strategies is to make sure that nobody benefits
from terrorist strategies.
And that means that you have to be willing to back away from negotiations with those who are
sponsoring terrorism, aiding and abetting terrorists, refusing to condemn terrorists, and who
think that they can sit down at the negotiating table and reap the rewards of terrorism.
And if you're not willing to make those hard decisions, and stay out of the process, when it
serves the interests of the terrorists, then you're not serious—
PONCE: (talking over) Mr. Obama?
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KEYES: —in fact—
OBAMA: (talking over) Ah—
KEYES: —about changing the ways they behave.
OBAMA: I'm not clear about what Mr. Keyes is referring to. I know that when he was
ambassador in an administration that was engaged in the Middle East peace process, that his
administration, as well as every subsequent administration, has felt that the United States has an
appropriate role in seeing if it can move the process forward.
And I think that for us to suggest, somehow, that we should abdicate responsibility entirely in the
Middle East makes no sense whatsoever.
PONCE: Let's move on to a domestic question, and it's a question that anyone who has an
automobile is aware of now, and that is, the price of gasoline. With gasoline prices as high as
they are, Mr. Keyes, what would you, as a senator, do to push—would you, as a senator, push—
to require greater fuel efficiency from the auto makers?
KEYES: I think that the real question, when you have high gasoline prices, is to ask why the
prices are high.
Right this moment, I think that's kinda hard to explain, because we don't see, anywhere that I can
tell, in the world, where there is a problem with production or other things, so we'd need to
examine that.
But, over the long term? I think we need to develop proper alternative fuels. I think we need to
develop ethanol. We need to push on the research, where breakthroughs are occurring, to get
hydrogen from ethanol.
PONCE: (talking over) Are you talking about mandates from the government?
KEYES: We will be able, by pushing on that kind of research—yes, with support of government
funding, we'll be able to have a win for our farmers, in the agricultural sector, to improve the
profitability of their product. We'll be able to have a win on the environment, because hydrogen,
for instance, is more clean-burning. We'll be able to have a win on national security, because we
will stop feeding dollars to Arab states who use those dollars to fund schools where people are
taught to engage in terrorism, and use those dollars to support the cadre and infrastructure of
terrorism.
So, I think it's very important that we move ahead, and we do so vigorously and urgently, to
develop a plan that will get us away from our dependence on oil, as the primary resource, and
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move us down the road that I think is going to be the twenty-first century pattern.
PONCE: Any disagreement, Mr. Obama?
OBAMA: Well, I think one of the tragedies of this administration, after 9/11, is that we did not
move more aggressively on conservation as a strategy, in addition to developing alternative
fuels.
I think that increasing fuel efficiency standards makes sense. We could save as much, in terms of
our fuel, if we increased our CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards, fuel
efficiency standards, as much as we would from getting Alaska drilling going immediately. And
that's been the Bush strategy, as essentially drilling in Alaska, increasing production for oil and
gas companies, subsidizing them to the tune of twenty billion dollars, as opposed to thinking
about how, not only, we can develop alternative fuels, but also how can we conserve energy and
increase the sort of efficiencies that are available right now, but have not been invested in.
PONCE: Let's move on to something that's related, and that is the issue of the deficit. Mr. Keyes,
name one program you would cut to help shrink the deficit.
KEYES: Before I go there, one of the things that amazes me, is that folks who always talk about
how they care about jobs for people in Illinois, and then they will move down policy roads, like
CAFE standards, that would further damage the manufacturing and industrial base of our own
state.
It makes no sense to me that we are going to take this country down a road that will damage our
ability to maintain an expanding economy—without need, by the way—when, by achieving a
proper balance between what's needed to create jobs, like Anwar exploration, and what's needed
to sustain our productivity, and then put behind the kind of research that will make new
breakthroughs in the energy area, put behind that the money that will then, again, provide more
jobs and more opportunity for our people.
So, I think these are kinda contradictory. We want more government control that will restrict
expanding horizons of opportunity, and then claim that we want to have more jobs for our
people. It doesn't work.
PONCE: All right. Leads to a broader question. Mr. Obama, what do you see as the role of
government?
OBAMA: This is where we have a significant philosophical difference, I think—myself, and Mr.
Keyes.
I think that the proper role of government is to do things we can't do as well individually as we
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can do collectively And that includes protecting our environment. That includes building our
roads. That includes the national defense. And it also includes caring for people who are having
difficulty caring for themselves, and expanding opportunity for children who may be born in
situations in which they don't have opportunity.
And, as far as I can tell, Mr. Keyes has a very different philosophy. His attitude is that
government is consistently the problem. And I think that government sometimes is the problem,
but sometimes government can actually help, in terms of providing people the opportunities they
need, and can correct market failures where they occur.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes?
KEYES: Well, if I can correct the understanding—I guess I am not obsessed with government,
and that's the difference between myself and Barack Obama.
I think that the first mission of the United States wasn't government. It was self-government. It
was the ability of people to do for themselves.
And in the business, for instance, of caring for themselves, of raising strong families, of
producing businesses that will provide jobs—this is something the American people do very
well, and I think the role of government is to second their motion.
Government doesn't have an independent role of the people of this country. It is, in areas where it
can support and facilitate their activity, it should do so, in areas that involve, for instance,
opening up our frontiers and building the infrastructure that was necessary to support that
opening—makes very good sense.
Opening up scientific frontiers, such as we've been talking about with ethanol, and hydrogen—it
makes very good sense. Providing the kind of support for our infrastructure and transportation
and other areas—it makes very good sense.
But when you come in, as Barack Obama was just suggesting, and you start saying that "we can
better handle the problem of helping families that are in poverty"—it turns out government
doesn't do that better, because there's a moral dimension to that problem, where you need to give
the help without undermining the incentive of people to work, without undermining the incentive
of people to get married and stay married, which turns out to be one of the most important things
they can do to get out of poverty.
These are things that have a moral dimension that cannot easily be addressed by bureaucrats and
impersonal policies. You need to have communities. You need to have churches. You need to
have synagogues. You need to have the organizations that can—
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OBAMA: (talking over) Let me, let me, let me, let me, let me say this.
KEYES: —walk with people, on an emotional and spiritual basis.
OBAMA: You know, when a child doesn't have health insurance, they don't need a lecture; they
need health insurance.
(laughter)
OBAMA: When you have families that don't have housing, despite the fact that they're working
full-time—and there's not a single metropolitan area in the entire nation in which someone who's
working minimum wage can afford a two-bedroom apartment and put a roof over the heads of
their families—then, they need something concrete. They may have exemplary morals, and they
may be doing everything that they can to support their children, but they've hit hard times. And,
in those situations, I think government has a appropriate role in making sure that some of those
needs are met, so that people can ultimately do for themselves.
KEYES: Nobody disagrees about that, but the actual, factual record shows that the way in which
we went about providing that help laid down rules and regulations that, for instance, penalized
people when they got married and deprived them, for instance, of their welfare; drove fathers and
males out of the home so they wouldn't play their proper role.
Government did that, with stupid regulations that did not, in fact, take account of the moral
dimensions of the help we should be providing people. Sometimes—
OBAMA: (talking over) And Mr. Keyes is exactly right about that.
KEYES: If I may say so, you want to help folks, but the notion that you don't want to, quote,
"lecture" them—to act as if the moral dimension of life, the kind of things that encourage people
to meet their responsibilities to their spouses and to their children, to walk in a way that is
disciplined and self-respectful, to teach the children that they have to have respect for the
parents, and that people in a family have to work together—I know government can't do that. But
I know that churches, and people working within their spiritual communities, can.
So, if government wants to work with these problems, it should work through the institutions that
represent the moral identity and culture of the people. It should not work through the kind of
impersonal, bureaucratic approaches that have dominated the socialistic mentality of the—
(Moderator and Obama attempt to interrupt)
KEYES: —last several decades.
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OBAMA: No, I'm sorry, Phil, because I'm trying to get a little equal time here—
(laughter)
PONCE: Ladies and gentlemen, please refrain. Thank you.
OBAMA: I don't even disagree with what Mr. Keyes just said, which is why I've been
responsible, in this state, for one of the most successful welfare reform programs in the country
(we've cut the welfare rolls in half); that's why I've emphasized things like child support,
providing mechanisms to hold fathers responsible for their children.
Part of the problem, in a lot of these debates, is you've got conservatives who will paint this
boogeyman of liberalism, which dredges up every error that's been made throughout the sixties
or seventies that had been cured, significantly, over the last decade, will suggest that, somehow,
people who are interested in government providing some assistance to people who are on hard
times are, somehow, engaging in "socialism," and that is completely off-point, because what
we're talking about is not socialistic programs.
Mr. Keyes considers Social Security "socialism." He's called it a "socialistic program." I think
that Social Security is what has lifted about half of the senior citizens in our society out of
poverty, and I think that is a good investment, on the part of all of us because, when senior
citizens are in poverty, not only do they suffer, but the entire community suffers.
KEYES: I—
PONCE: (talking over) How about the issue of the responsibility, or the role of government, in
working with institutions to promote, sort of, a moral impulse?
OBAMA: Well, here's where I think we may find some agreement, and that is that some of the
most successful government programs that are taking place right now are run through
community development corporations.
I started, I came to Chicago working with churches on the far south side of Chicago, and when
those organizations set up a not-for-profit organization—and they've got a set of values that
motivate and animate what they do—then, oftentimes, they can be much more successful in
substance-abuse programs, in programs for children, in building affordable housing.
So, to the extent that we can be wise about how we use market incentives for programs, to the
extent that we're working with community-based agencies and organizations that are closer to the
ground than a distant and remote federal government, then I think that makes a lot of sense.
KEYES: Well, I think—
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PONCE: (talking over) Mr. Keyes, let's move on, please.
KEYES: (talking over) Well, I think—no, I think this is a very critical point.
PONCE: (talking over) No. No, sir. Let's move on. Sir? We're moving on. We're moving on.
United Airlines just announced that it is adding six hundred and fifty telephone reservation jobs
in India, and cutting jobs in this country. What, specifically, can you do, in the United States
Senate, to keep jobs in Illinois?
KEYES: I think the most important thing that we have to do is, deal with the results of these
unfair trade agreements that have been destroying the manufacturing base in Illinois, that have
eliminated close to 20% of the manufacturing jobs in the state since 1998.
I think that these things are the kinds of things that, with my background in international
relations and my background in multilateral affairs, I know exactly why we're not getting good
results—because the multilateral fora are biased against our interests, because other countries
can gang up on the United States, with some of the most privileged and better-performing ones
hiding behind the less-developed ones, to get deals at the multilateral table that they could never
get at the bilateral table, get concessions from us we wouldn't otherwise make, refuse to make
concessions, in the multilateral environment, we would otherwise get.
So, I think it's gonna be very important to have somebody representing Illinois who will step into
the United States Senate from Day One, with the background and experience, already, to
command the respect of his colleagues, as he addresses this underlying problem which has to do
with how we are approaching this complex issue of international affairs, but doing it in a way
that's based on actual experience, and hands-on understanding of what some of the failings are
with, for instance, the whole concept of free trade.
Barack Obama went to the Chicago Development Council and said he thought free trade was a
good idea. I don't think it is. I don't think it's a good thing, because it's a false notion which is
based on having Americans, who have to build into the price of their products the price of
freedom, of union organization, of representative government where you can get safety and
health regulations—
PONCE: All right, let's get Mr. Obama in this.
KEYES: We're competing with slave labor from China, and it's just not right.
PONCE: Mr. Obama, beat on your position on jobs for Illinois.
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OBAMA: There are a couple of things that we can do. I think that we do need to enforce our
trade agreements more effectively. When China devalues its currency by 40%, that has to be
challenged within the World Trade Organization. It's not something that's being done. Right
now, we have a tendency for our federal government to negotiate our trade agreements on behalf
of multinational corporations, and not on behalf of workers and communities that are getting
hard hit.
The second thing is, we have to change our tax code. We've got a tax code right now that
provides tax incentives to companies that are moving overseas. We need to close those loopholes
and give tax breaks to companies that are investing here at home.
We have to invest in infrastructure, because part of the problem that we have right now is that,
not only are jobs moving overseas because those countries are getting more skilled, but they're
also getting improved infrastructure.
For example, in Brazil, you've got locks and dams that have been invested in that are far superior
to what we've got here in Illinois. That doesn't make sense, and we've got to invest there.
And, finally, we've got to invest in human capital, which is critical. Our children have to improve
their performance in math and science for us to keep jobs here.
But there's one point that I've got to make, and that is that Mr. Keyes' basic suggestion is tariffs,
as a solution to this—building a moat around America. I don't think that's an effective strategy. I
think that, Number One, globalism is here to stay. Number Two, I think that we have enormous
export reliance, here within the state of Illinois. We are the second-leading exporter of
agricultural products, of all the fifty states, and we would suffer tremendously from the sort of
tariff wars that, I think, Mr. Keyes would be proposing.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes, a quick response.
KEYES: Nobody has ever suggested tariff wars. We have certain—
OBAMA: (interrupting) You've suggested tariffs.
KEYES: Of course I have, because under the GATT agreement, for instance—
OBAMA: (talking over) Well, there you go.
KEYES: —certain kinds of tariffs are quite allowable, in order to achieve greater balance of
trade.
We need to creatively use the tools that are available to us. Saying we should rely on these
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multilateral organizations, where the deck is stacked against us, which can circumvent what
ought to be the proper judgment of our own legislators whom we elect, responsible to us, and we
should rely on their judgment to be fair to us, when we've seen what they do to the United States
in other respects?
I think we have to keep sovereign control of our own economic destiny. And "globalism" should
not imply that we are going to dilute the sovereignty of the United States when it comes to
defending our manufacturing base, and when it comes, by the way, to winning a better deal for
our farmers. The notion that they have been getting something wonderful out of this "free trade"
nonsense is absurd.
Oh, sure. The other countries—Japan, and so forth—they've crack the door a little bit, but guess
what? They haven't stuck their heads out, yet. And our farmers aren't yet getting access to the
rich markets that they ought to have fair access to as a result of these agreements, and it's time
we started to ask why, and stopped kowtowing to these multilateral mechanisms our fundamental
interests for workers and farmers alike.
PONCE: Thank you. Let's move to the question of education. Mr. Obama, you've said that you
consider education as the most important civil rights issue facing America today. Currently, your
children are in private schools. If you're elected to the Senate, will you send them to public
schools?
OBAMA: Well, my children currently go to the lab school at the University of Chicago where I
teach, and my wife works, and we get a good deal for it. But, so—
(laughter, applause)
OBAMA: —it depends on whether we move or not. And that, obviously, hinges on the election
and what's gonna happen. We're gonna choose the best possible education for our children, as I
suspect all parents are gonna try to do. And that's part of the reason why, consistently when I've
been in the state legislature, I've tried to promote those kinds of reforms that would improve
what I think is an inadequate performance by too many public schools, all across the state.
PONCE: But you're against vouchers, as a senator.
OBAMA: I am.
PONCE: You have the means, to have a choice—
OBAMA: Absolutely.
PONCE: —for your children. What about the families that don't have the means? Is it fair for
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them—
OBAMA: What they—no—
PONCE: —not to have a choice?
OBAMA: —what they need is more money in their pockets.
And that's why I've supported programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit, that provides tax
relief to low-income families, so that they can use that money any way that they want, including
sending their kids into private schools.
PONCE: Is that enough of a help, Mr. Keyes?
KEYES: I'm sorry, y'all—I do not see the day when every American family is going to be
employed by the University of Chicago so they, too, can have a choice.
(laughter)
KEYES: I think that we had better get there a little sooner than that. And I think that the way we
get there sooner than that, is to let the money we spend on education follow the choice of the
parents, so every family in Illinois—whether they are rich or poor—will be able to have the same
scope to do what they think is best for their children.
I do not understand why we should believe it right to imprison the parents of people with less
means in failing public schools, when, and then—oh! "I'll let them have a little more money, so
they can go on paying twice for education"? Paying with the taxes, and paying as well with
money they have to dig into their pocket to earn?
One of the most touching things [that] happened to me when I got to Illinois, was talking to a
father who had worked hard to send his daughter to a private school—he was a worker over at
Ford, the Ford plant—and we were sitting there in the restaurant talking about this, and in the
middle of it, he tells me that his son had died in a drive-by shooting. And I'm looking at this man,
whose heart was utterly broken, and thinking to myself that, for all that, he was still willing to
make the extra effort, to make sure that his daughter got the best.
I don't think it should be that hard. I don't think it should be that hard. We have the wherewithal
and, in addition to everything else, if we adopted a proper voucher program, we would equalize
the scandalous inequities in education that occur in Illinois because of the funding mechanism
that leaves some kids stuck in poor districts.
Give every parent the same amount that they'll be able to spend on their child, and you can bet,
~ 15 ~
in faith schools and parochial schools and other, non-government schools, they'll be able to get
better results for less money than we're getting right now.
PONCE: Thank you. A real quick response, before we move on—and we have to.
OBAMA: Right now, 90% of our school children go to public schools. Some of those schools
are doing a good job. Some of them are not. It is absolutely critical that as we move, for
example, in charter schools and encourage competition in public schools, that we don't blow up
the public school system—which, essentially, is what Mr. Keyes advocates.
I mean, he has talked about eliminating all federal aid to public schools, the Department of
Education. That is a 10% to 12% reduction in our school systems. Eighty percent of our schools,
right now, are in deficit spending. Eighty percent. And, the kinds of proposals Mr. Keyes
suggests would essentially, over time, drain money from the public school system, without any
commitment that we would, in fact, create the kind of private school system on a parallel track,
that would enable the children that he talks about from actually getting a better education.
We need to lift all boats. The public schools were fine, for most of the people in this audience,
and worked very well. And, the notion that, somehow, the public schools can't work today, I
think is erroneous. I haven't given up on the public schools.
PONCE: Gentlemen, I have, I have—
KEYES: (attempts to interrupt)
PONCE: Gentlemen. No, gentlemen—
KEYES: He made a false statement. I have not advocated eliminating all public monies for
education, never did, never have—
OBAMA: (talking over) Mr. Keyes, that's not true.
KEYES: —don't believe it, and—
OBAMA: You're on record as saying it.
KEYES: I am not.
OBAMA: Yes, you are. We'll show you—
KEYES: And the truth of the matter—
~ 16 ~
OBAMA: (attempts interruption)
KEYES: The truth of the matter is, it's not a matter of whether we spend as a public, but whether
we spend cost-effectively. And the notion that this drains money from public schools—
PONCE: All right. Thank you.
KEYES: —is not true. If you examine the case in Wisconsin and elsewhere, the more general the
voucher program, the more general the choice was, the better the performance we got out of—
OBAMA: That is simply—that, that—
PONCE: Gentlemen? Gentlemen?
OBAMA: (talking over) That is not the case.
PONCE: I now want to get to a section which, for want of a better term, I call the "quick hit"
section. "Yes" or "no" answers, only. Partial privatization of Social Security for younger
workers—yes or no?
OBAMA: No.
KEYES: Yes.
PONCE: Casino gambling in Chicago? Yes or no?
OBAMA: No.
KEYES: No.
PONCE: Drilling in the Alaskan wilderness?
OBAMA: Yes.
KEYES: Yes.
PONCE: "Yes?"
OBAMA: Oh, I'm sorry. Pardon me.
(laughter and applause)
~ 17 ~
OBAMA: I appreciate that, Phil. We had already talked about that. You were going a little too
fast.
PONCE: (laughs)
OBAMA: You were going too fast.
PONCE: I thought we were about to make news here, Mr. Obama.
OBAMA: Almost. No!
PONCE: (laughs) All right. Fine. The answer withdrawn. Cars, that your family owns?
OBAMA. Chrysler. Is that right?
(laughter)
OBAMA: Don't remember what it's called.
PONCE: One Chrysler?
OBAMA: One Chrysler.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes?
KEYES: Lincoln and Ford.
PONCE: Reinstatement of the draft? Yes or no?
OBAMA: No.
KEYES: Universal service, also including non-military alternatives, yes.
PONCE: OK. Let's move on to a political question, for want of a better term. The U.S. Senate is
a deliberative body, Mr. Keyes. Can you give an example, in your public life, of where you've
compromised for the greater good?
KEYES: Oh, I think I have done it all the time. I think one of the things I've changed my mind
on in a major way was free trade. I was once a big advocate of free trade, as most conservatives
are, but I found that the facts were simply against me.
PONCE: (talking over) I'm not talking about a change of mind. I'm talking about a compromise.
~ 18 ~
KEYES: Well, I think that, in the course of my negotiations in the United Nations, I had to
compromise all the time, in order to produce agreements with other countries. In the context of
the north-south dialogue, I had to compromise on language, for instance, where they didn't want
us to include a reference to the private sector in resolutions in the United Nations. They'd never
done it, before I got there. Isn't that amazing?
And so we compromised, and allowed them to mention "public, private, social, cooperative, or
mixed." We got a list of about five different things, but I got "private sector" in there.
So, those kinds of compromises were quite commonplace, where you insist, at the end of the day,
that you want to push your point, so that people will know that it's there, but you're also open to
allowing others to express their views.
PONCE: Mr. Obama, as a senator, what would your first piece of legislation be, that you would
propose?
OBAMA: You know, what I'd like to see is a continuing expansion of the children's health
insurance programs—something I'm very proud we expanded here in the state of Illinois. Twenty
thousand children have health insurance they didn't have. I think we can make sure that every
child in America that doesn't have health insurance, has basic care.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes, because of your deep commitment to Christianity, what do you say to
citizens of Illinois who are of other faiths, who might be concerned about your ability to
represent them?
KEYES: Oh, I don't think there's need for such concern. I take very seriously the great American
principles that we all have in common, starting with the Declaration of Independence, which says
we are, all of us, created equal and endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights.
If folks listen carefully—and that means you can't do it with the newspapers; you have to
actually listen to what I say—to the arguments I make on public policy issues, they will find that,
in every case, I reach my conclusions based on the civic principles that are the common ground
of American self-government.
Yes, they are compatible and in harmony with my faith because, in point of fact, if I had to take a
position that was contrary to my conscience, I wouldn't be able to be a politician. These people
who say, "Well, I think abortion is wrong, but I've got to stand for a public policy that pursues
it," are people who would say, I don't know, "Sex outside of marriage is wrong, but I'm going to
be a porno star."
You can't have it both ways. You can't engage in activities that are contrary to your conscience if
~ 19 ~
you're a Christian, so I advocate the positions that are in harmony with my conscience, but I
argue for those positions on the basis of American principles that I have carefully studied, and
that I apply in every case.
I can make that case with abortion. I do make that case with traditional marriage. I think that you
can make such civic arguments, based on the common principles that we all share as Americans,
in order to make clear—because we have a moral identity as a people. There are moral principles
involved in the foundations of American government, and we can reason from them to proper
moral conclusions.
PONCE: Mr. Obama, you've said that your religious faiths, your religious faith, dictates that
marriage should be between a man and a woman. Would you elaborate on that?
OBAMA: Well, what I believe is that marriage is between a man and a woman, but what I also
believe is that we have an obligation to make sure that gays and lesbians have the rights of
citizenship that afford them visitations to hospitals, that allow them to be, to transfer property
between partners, to make certain that they're not discriminated on the job. I think that bundle of
rights are absolutely critical.
PONCE: (talking over) Excuse me, but as far as, why? What in your religious faith calls you to
be against gay marriage?
OBAMA: Well, what I believe, in my faith, is that a man and a woman, when they get married,
are performing something before God, and it's not simply the two persons who are meeting.
But that doesn't mean that that necessarily translates into a position on public policy or with
respect to civil unions. What it does mean is that we have a set of traditions in place that, I think,
need to be preserved, but I also think we need to make sure that gays and lesbians have the same
set of basic rights that are in place.
And I was glad to see, for example, that the president today apparently stated that he was in favor
of civil unions. This may be a reversal of his position but I think it's a healthy one. I think, on
this, President Bush and I disagree, apparently, with Mr. Keyes on this, because I think that that
kind of basic ethic of regard towards all people, regardless of sexual orientation, is a valuable
thing.
PONCE: (talking over) Let me ask you, let me interrupt and ask you a very quick follow-up
question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?
OBAMA: (sighs) No. I don't. I—I—I—
PONCE: You think it's innate.
~ 20 ~
OBAMA: I think that, for the most part, it is innate. I think that, obviously, it may vary in certain
circumstances, but I think that it is something that is a part of their identity. Now—but—
PONCE: (talking over) That being the case, Mr. Obama—that being the case, if something is not
a choice, if something is innate, then why isn't it a civil right, and why isn't your support of—
OBAMA: (talking over) Well, I think that—
PONCE: (talking over) —civil unions, as opposed to marriage—
OBAMA: (talking over) —I think that—
PONCE: (talking over) —does that amount to "separate, but equal"?
OBAMA: No. I think there are a whole host of things that are civil rights, and then there are
other things—such as traditional marriage—that, I think, express a community's concern and
regard for a particular institution.
PONCE: So, marriage is not a civil right, as far as you're concerned.
OBAMA: I don't think marriage is a civil right, but I think that being able—
PONCE: (talking over) Is it a human right?
OBAMA: (talking over) But I think that being able to transfer property is a civil right. I think not
being—
PONCE: Do you think marriage is a human right?
OBAMA: I think that not being able to, not being discriminated against is a civil right. I think
making sure that we don't engage in the sort of gay-bashing that, I think, has unfortunately
dominated this campaign—not just here in Illinois, but across the country—I think, is
unfortunate, and I think that that kind of mean-spirited attacks on homosexuals is something that
the people of Illinois generally have rejected.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes, on the Channel 7 debate last Thursday night, you said, and I'm quoting you,
"Where procreation is, in principle, impossible, marriage is irrelevant." You went on to say it
was irrelevant, and not needed. What about marriage between people that are well beyond their
child-bearing age? "Irrelevant"? "Not needed"?
KEYES: No, it's simply a misunderstanding. The word "in principle" means, "relating to the
~ 21 ~
definition of." Not, "relating to particular circumstances." So, if an apple has a worm in it, the
worm is not part of the definition of the apple. It doesn't change what the apple is, in principle.
So, the fact—
PONCE: (talking over) It retains its "appleness."
KEYES: Can I—can I—
(audience laughs)
KEYES: It pertains, it retains—no. To act as if concepts are laughable means that you want to be
irrational. Human beings are—
PONCE: (talking over) No, I'm asking you, sir. You said—
KEYES: (talking over) Excuse me. Let me finish.
PONCE: (talking over) You said, you said it was "not needed."
KEYES: (talking over) Human beings reason by means of concepts and definitions. We also
make laws by means of definitions. And if you don't know how to operate with respect for those
definitions, you can't make the law.
An individual who is impotent, or another who is infertile, does not change the definition of
marriage in principle, because between a man and a woman in principle, procreation is always
possible, and it is that possibility which gave rise to the institution of marriage in the first place
as a matter of law—
PONCE: (talking over) To eighty-year-olds, it's still possible, "in principle."
KEYES: But when it is impossible in principle, as between two males or two females, you're not
talking about something that's just incidentally impossible. It's impossible in principle.
And that means that, if you say that that's a marriage, you are saying marriage can be understood,
in principle, apart from procreation. You have changed its definition in such a way as, in fact, to
destroy the necessity for the institution, since the only reason it has existed in human societies
and civilizations was to regulate, from a social point of view, the obligations and responsibilities
attendant upon procreation.
So, when you start playing games in this way, you are actually acting as if the institution has no
basis, independent of your own arbitrary whim. And, if you don't mind my saying so, that's what
we just heard.
~ 22 ~
We heard something that wasn't based on reasoning. It wasn't based on logic. It was based on
vague feelings—
PONCE: (talking over) Sir? It was based on your quote last Thursday night.
KEYES: (talking over) No, no. I don't mean that. I'm not talking about me.
(laughter)
PONCE: Oh, I see.
KEYES: I am talking about what Senator Obama just went through—
PONCE: (interrupting) Got it.
KEYES: —in terms of explaining his position.
My position is based upon an effort, as conscientiously as I can, to reason through the challenge
that we face, when dealing with the most important, fundamental institution of our social life and
civilization. We can't afford—for instance, in civil unions—
PONCE: (talking over) We've got to move on. We've got to move on.
OBAMA: But, hold on, Phil—
PONCE: All right.
OBAMA: —because he suggests that my position is illogical. Now, this is somebody who, just
last week, suggested that the fact that gays and lesbians adopted children would inevitably lead
to incest. There's no logic involved in that. That's pure vicious attack against homosexuals. It
applies no more to gays and lesbians who've adopted children than it does to heterosexuals
who've adopted children.
And then Mr. Keyes will then back off, and say, "Well, you didn't quite catch the comma there,
and the qualifier here, and the coda there," but the fact of the matter is, is that it was a mean-
spirited attack, intended to suggest that there is some connection between homosexuality and
incest. There was no logical basis for that. That was simply an assertion, on his part.
KEYES: Would you mind? Can I do that?
PONCE: Please. Go right ahead.
~ 23 ~
KEYES: Because it's actually very simple. I have, over here, two females—you know, I didn't
talk about adoption—those two females are intent on having, quote, "having" a child, which they
cannot have, obviously, unless you involve a male.
The procedures that are used now, by many lesbian couples, are procedures that mask the
identity of the father, so it will not be known. OK? So it will not, and cannot, be known, who is
the father of that child.
PONCE: (talking over) Isn't that true, in many adoptions?
KEYES: No, no—excuse me. I just said that a conscious, willful effort was made so that you
could not know who was the biological father.
Once you have made that effort, you produce a child who cannot know who its father is. Cannot
know that.
Now, if you don't know, and have no way of ascertaining, who your father is, then you can't
know who your sisters and brothers are, obviously. And if you can't know who your sisters and
brothers are, there is no way you could avoid having sexual relations with them. So, logically
speaking—
PONCE: And—
OBAMA: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
(laughter)
KEYES: Excuse me. Excuse me. I know that Senator Obama sometimes has a hard time getting
from A to B, but from A to B is a simple, logical step, which I believe most people in the state of
Illinois have the common sense to see.
In order to make an informed judgment, you must have the knowledge needed to avoid the
consequence, and in that particular case, the knowledge is not available.
PONCE: (talking over) Quick response, Mr. Obama.
KEYES: It is quite logical.
OBAMA: I mean, according to Mr. Keyes, then, that would be true of any adoptions, where they
often don't know who their parents are. It would be true any time an infertile couple gets a sperm
donor to help them have a child. I think your logic wasn't that complicated. It was just wrong.
~ 24 ~
(laughter)
KEYES: Well, see—
PONCE: Ladies and gentlemen, please.
KEYES: The wonderful thing that one learns, when one deals actually with logic and
philosophy, is that, when I have a point proven over here, the fact that that same point applies in
an entirely different circumstance does not prove the error of my logic. It simply proves—
OBAMA: (talking over) It does prove it when you say that it's inevitable that they're gonna have
(inaudible), which is what you said.
KEYES: It simply proves—excuse me. It simply proves that that logic may or may not exist
elsewhere. If I have ascertained that a mistake is made over here, telling me that the same
mistake may also be made over here, doesn't invalidate the logic which identified the mistake.
And that's where you're having a problem.
OBAMA: (talking over) No, because you said it was inevitable, and that was entirely wrong.
PONCE: Mr. Obama, tell us about a time in your life when you experienced racism, and what
you learned from it.
OBAMA: Well, I think there are multiple circumstances. I think that any child growing up in this
country who is an African American at some point has been called racial epithets. I think there
have been frequent situations where I've been in settings in which it was assumed I was "the
help." I remember, actually, when I first got out of law school, and was being recruited by a
major law firm here in Chicago, and had been invited to a fancy dinner, and as I'm walking by,
wearing what I thought was a pretty nice suit, anyway—
(laughter)
OBAMA: —somebody turns to me and says, "Can I have more tea?"
You know, I think every African American has some experiences like that, but I think those
experiences have slowly and gradually diminished over time, thanks to the enormous efforts of
parents and grandparents and others who made sacrifices in this society, and I am entirely
optimistic that my children will experience an America that is less conscious of race, and is less
focused on the sort of discriminatory activity that's taken place in the past.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes, you've said that you and Mr. Obama are from the same race, but not from
~ 25 ~
the same heritage. Do you feel that you are more personally in touch with African Americans
than he, because you are a descendant of slaves?
KEYES: I simply observed a fact. I didn't make any conclusions from that fact. I wouldn't do so.
And I thought it was rather strange, in the last debate that we had, that, when I talked about the
effect of my heritage on my outlook—for instance, in dealing with the issue of abortion, one of
the reasons I'm so intensely interested is because there's a disproportionate impact of abortion on
the black community, that threatens to reduce the numbers of black people in a way that will be
quite demographically drastic, over the course of the twenty-first century.
I did misspeak a little last time, because I had said more black babies were being aborted than
were being born. In fact, I think the ratio is 55% live births, 45% abortions—but you know, that's
still pretty bad, and it leads to a situation, over time, that's gonna be awful for the black
community.
So, I think that it has an effect on one's outlook, because you look back to a heritage where
things like the Declaration of Independence were critically important to making progress in the
battle against slavery and in the battle for civil rights.
The thought that we would discard it—that we would, for the sake of, I don't know, sexual
license and other things, be talking about the world as if the Declaration didn't apply to our
babies in the womb—strikes me as a devastating loss, because I know how important it was to
the progress of justice, in the course of our history.
So, that's simply a matter of how that heritage influences what I have focused on in life, what I
consider to be terribly, critically important questions of justice, how I look at the present
situation, in terms of the plight of the black community. I do look at the larger picture,
sometimes, because I think it's well and good that we concentrate on helping people get jobs, and
education, and do the things that are needed to meet the challenges of the present time, but if
something's going on that's gonna, overall, lead to genocide—
PONCE: (talking over) Thank you, Mr. Keyes.
KEYES: —against the community in the long term, we'd better deal with that, too.
PONCE: Gentlemen, at this point, I'd like to ask you to give me one or two sentence answers on
the following questions. Mr. Obama, do you support either amnesty for undocumented workers,
or a form of a guest-worker program? Do you support either of those?
OBAMA: Not in its current form. I think we have to secure our borders. We have to have
employer sanctions in place, and if we had those two things in place, then I think setting up a
~ 26 ~
pathway or regularized status for undocumented workers is appropriate.
PONCE: One or two sentences on that.
KEYES: I want to make very clear, we need to have guarded borders. We need to make clear
that the states and localities are not gonna extend privileges to aliens. We need to change our
basis for citizenship, because I think (inaudible), as it's called, where you're a citizen just because
you're born here, is something that is contributing to this problem, and needs to be changed. And
I think, if we take all those steps, in order to make sure we're enforcing strictly and can enforce
our immigration laws, so that we've applied to both borders what's necessary for immigration and
national security, we can then move forward.
PONCE: Quick hits, yes or no. Federal funding to research new lines of embryonic stem cells,
Mr. Obama?
OBAMA: Yes.
KEYES: No.
PONCE: Should the display of the Ten Commandments be allowed in government buildings, yes
or no?
OBAMA: I think it depends. I think it depends on whether or not it's a historical building, in
which case, there's not a clear message of religion sent, or if it's one of these new, large signs that
are being erected in front of the courts, like what happened in Alabama, which Mr. Keyes
supports.
PONCE: All right. Mr. Keyes? Quick answer.
KEYES: Of course—because the federal government, through the judges or anybody else, has
absolutely no constitutional authority whatsoever to interfere with the states in this matter, and
it's provable on the basis of the clear, plain, non-interpreted language of the Constitution. The
idea that it requires separation of church and state, that can be imposed on the states, is simply a
lie.
OBAMA: This is something that I do have to address, because Mr. Keyes repeats this all the
time. You know, he suggests that the separation of church and state is, somehow, an argument
that he's having with liberal judges out here. He's not having an argument with liberal judges.
He's having an argument with Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Thomas Jefferson coined
the term, "a wall of separation." Now, what he'll fall back on is suggesting that, even if there was
a wall of separation, it would only apply to the federal government—but the fact of the matter is,
we've incorporated the Bill of Rights into, to apply to the states through the Fourteenth
~ 27 ~
Amendment. That's the reason that the states can't ban this program, any more than the federal
government can.
PONCE: All right.
KEYES: No, no, no. You're not going—
PONCE: (talking over) Yes.
KEYES: (talking over) You're not going to leave that on the table.
PONCE: (talking over) Yes, yes I am. Yes, I am.
KEYES: First of all—
PONCE: Mr. Keyes, quick hit.
KEYES: I'll do it quickly. I'll do it quickly—
PONCE: All right.
KEYES: —but it's not fair that he should imply something entirely untrue. "Congress shall make
no law establishing religion" applies to the federal government. The Tenth Amendment says,
"All those powers not delegated to the United States or prohibited by it to the states, are reserved
to the states, respectively, and to the people."
By the articles of the Bill of Rights, therefore, it is one of the privileges and immunities of
citizens of the United States to be free from federal interference on this issue of religious
establishment. That's plain—
PONCE: (talking over) OK. That's enough. That's enough.
KEYES: —from the text of the documents.
PONCE: Yes or no, eliminate the electoral college?
OBAMA: Yes.
PONCE: Yes?
KEYES: (talking over) No.
~ 28 ~
OBAMA: I think, at this point, this is breaking down.
PONCE: All right. Thank you. Mr. Keyes, a few weeks ago, in this very studio, you told an
audience of High School students that, no matter the outcome, you planned to live in Illinois
after the campaign. What, specifically, do you plan to do here?
KEYES: I don't understand. I'm concentrating on my campaign, and I'm not worried about what I
do in the event that I lose the election. What I plan to do is get a house, represent the people of
this state to the best of my ability in the United States Senate, and make sure the voice of their
heart and conscience is, once again, felt in the counsels of America as they were in the past, in
such a way as to uphold the Declaration, defend innocent life, and promote the real interests of
our workers and farmers through effective, competent representation.
PONCE: Mr. Obama, where would you have your primary residence?
OBAMA: You know, we haven't decided yet. First, I've got to win an election. And, after that,
my priority is gonna be making sure I've got as much time as possible with my wife and children.
PONCE: Speaking of that, how does one balance the demands of something that is going to be,
should you win, as consuming as the Senate, with that of a young father, to young children?
OBAMA: It's an extraordinarily difficult thing. It's like, the hardest thing about politics and, the
main way I manage it is just having an extraordinary wife who carries more than her load. And,
part of my task is just making sure I'm providing her support, as well as spending as much time
when I'm not working, with my children, as possible.
PONCE: How does campaigning affect your family, Mr. Keyes? You left Maryland.
KEYES: I think the most important thing is that my wife and I do have a strong bond, and that
we share a common faith. We know that, at the end of the day, if we are walking the walk that
God wants us to walk, and if we prayerfully consider what we're doing, He will provide us with
the strength, and the aid, and the wisdom, and the discernment, to deal with our children and our
family in a way that will not damage them for the future, and will help us to do the work He
wants us to do.
And we're also supported and have been, throughout our lives, by a lot of people who are
interested in what we do, support the kind of things we are working for, who understand what it
does to the family, and who pray for us intensely. And we feel, and are thankful for, those
prayers every day of our lives.
PONCE: Mr. Obama, last Thursday night on WLS, you said that, if elected, you would be
independent of the mayor. The United States Attorney, Patrick Fitzgerald, has been involved in
~ 29 ~
major investigations of corruption at City Hall. Are you willing to take a pledge that, if the
circumstances arose where you would have a voice in the matter, you would fight to keep the
current U.S. Attorney?
OBAMA: Yes. I think that Patrick Fitzgerald has done a good job. I think that's one of the better
decisions that Peter Fitzgerald made when he was in office. I think we could have found an
independent U.S. Attorney from Illinois, as well, but I think the person he selected has done an
excellent job, and I think he deserves reappointment.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes, you've run for the U.S. Senate twice before. You've run for the presidency
twice, and have never come close to being elected. At what point does it cease to become a
useful exercise?
KEYES: I think that what you're doing when you stand before your fellow citizens to run for
office is not about power, and it's not about office. It's simply about standing, with integrity, for
the truth that will best serve the people, the country, and your own children in the future of
America. And I believe that's all that I'm about.
And when I am running for office, even as now, I don't get up every day thinking about what's
going to serve my ambition, and what serves some useful purpose, in that cynical way. If I have
presented to people, as honestly as I can, things that I believe will help them to improve their
understanding of the foundations of our way of life, to improve the way in which we maintain
our liberty and our free institutions, to improve the way we apply those principles in order to
secure our prosperity for the future and our strength and security in the world, then everything I
do, at every stage of my public life—win, lose, or draw—makes a good contribution to the life of
my country.
And that's all I care about. Because, along the way, as they say, you can do a lot of good—and
it's up to God, at the end of the day, to decide in what way He is going to bless the effort.
But I am sure of one thing—as long as I walk the walk that He outlines and the path He wants
me to go down, I will do good, and I will be happy with the result, because the only thing I really
care about is whether or not, at the end of the day, I win the one judgment that matters most to
me in the world, and that is when He admits me home to the kingdom, and the place that He
prepares for all those who have faith in His Son.
PONCE: Mr. Keyes, among other things, at times in our history, the United States Senate has
been known for great statesmanship. I know this has been a contentious campaign, but I'd like
each of you to take, to talk something about, to tell us something you admire about your
opponent. You can take a minute, if you can fill up a minute.
(laughter)
~ 30 ~
KEYES: Well, I think he has proven to be someone who has been able to make a strong and
favorable impression, on a personal level, on folks. I think that he did so in his speech at the
Democratic National Convention, and I think that he's also, obviously, made a powerful
impression on the media elites in Illinois, and in other places.
(laughter)
KEYES: I think that that is, obviously, something that required talents and abilities. I also think
that, during the course of the debates we've had, he's shown himself to be both courteous and
somebody who, as I've watched other debates around the country, is able to engage substantively
on the issues—at a level that, I think, has been helpful in clarifying the differences between us.
PONCE: And let's hear from Mr. Obama.
OBAMA: Well, I think that Mr. Keyes is extraordinarily intelligent, and passionate in presenting
his views. And no one doubts that. He also, by the way, has a nice singing voice, which—
(laughter)
OBAMA: —we've heard on a couple of occasions. But I have enormous respect, I think, for Mr.
Keyes in the consistency with which he presents his views and what is obviously the heartfelt
passion of those views. I disagree with some of them, but there aren't many people who are
better, who can better articulate those particular positions.
PONCE: And that will have to be the final word. Alan Keyes, Barack Obama, thank you for
being here.
And again, our thanks to the City Club of Chicago for helping to make this forum possible. For
our Chicago-area viewers, please stay tuned with us for an extended edition of Chicago Tonight,
including post-debate analysis, and live coverage of the press conferences the candidates are
about to have in a different part of the building. Bob Sirott and Elizabeth Brackett will be
keeping an eye on all of that. But for now, I'm Phil Ponce. Thank you for watching. And now, a
round of applause for our two candidates.
(applause)
~ 31 ~

2004 Debate Three: Alan Keyes and Barack Obama

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2004 Debate Three: Alan Keyes and Barack Obama

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~ ILLINOIS SENATE RACE 2004 ~

Alan Keyes and Barack Obama Debate

Whether we have discouraged other terrorist-sponsoring states, or potentially terrorist-sponsoring

PONCE: (attempts interruption)

KEYES: (talking over) What I—

PONCE: Let's move on. Let's move on to—

KEYES: (talking over) What I find it hard to understand—

PONCE: (talking over) Mr. Obama?

KEYES: —in fact—

OBAMA: (talking over) Ah—

KEYES: —about changing the ways they behave.

PONCE: Any disagreement, Mr. Obama?

PONCE: Mr. Keyes?

KEYES: —walk with people, on an emotional and spiritual basis.

(Moderator and Obama attempt to interrupt)

KEYES: —last several decades.

PONCE: Ladies and gentlemen, please refrain. Thank you.

KEYES: Well, I think—

PONCE: (talking over) Mr. Keyes, let's move on, please.

PONCE: All right, let's get Mr. Obama in this.

PONCE: Mr. Obama, beat on your position on jobs for Illinois.

PONCE: Mr. Keyes, a quick response.

KEYES: Nobody has ever suggested tariff wars. We have certain—

OBAMA: (interrupting) You've suggested tariffs.

OBAMA: (talking over) Well, there you go.

PONCE: But you're against vouchers, as a senator.

PONCE: You have the means, to have a choice—

OBAMA: What they—no—

PONCE: —not to have a choice?

OBAMA: —what they need is more money in their pockets.

PONCE: Is that enough of a help, Mr. Keyes?

PONCE: Gentlemen, I have, I have—

KEYES: (attempts to interrupt)

PONCE: Gentlemen. No, gentlemen—

OBAMA: (talking over) Mr. Keyes, that's not true.

KEYES: —don't believe it, and—

OBAMA: You're on record as saying it.

OBAMA: Yes, you are. We'll show you—

KEYES: And the truth of the matter—

OBAMA: (attempts interruption)

PONCE: All right. Thank you.

OBAMA: That is simply—that, that—

PONCE: Gentlemen? Gentlemen?

OBAMA: (talking over) That is not the case.

PONCE: Casino gambling in Chicago? Yes or no?

PONCE: Drilling in the Alaskan wilderness?

OBAMA: Oh, I'm sorry. Pardon me.

(laughter and applause)

OBAMA: You were going too fast.

PONCE: I thought we were about to make news here, Mr. Obama.

OBAMA: Almost. No!

OBAMA. Chrysler. Is that right?

OBAMA: Don't remember what it's called.

PONCE: One Chrysler?

OBAMA: One Chrysler.

PONCE: Mr. Keyes?

KEYES: Lincoln and Ford.

PONCE: Reinstatement of the draft? Yes or no?

KEYES: Universal service, also including non-military alternatives, yes.

OBAMA: (sighs) No. I don't. I—I—I—

PONCE: You think it's innate.

OBAMA: (talking over) Well, I think that—

PONCE: (talking over) —civil unions, as opposed to marriage—

OBAMA: (talking over) —I think that—