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Printed From: Australian Survivalist Forum Name: Survivalist References Forum Discription: This forum is to post reviews on books and other media (fiction & non-fiction) of interest to survivalists. The emphasis is on building a survival libarary. URL: http://www.aussurvivalist.com/forum//forum_posts.asp?TID=4422 Printed Date: 06 October 2011 at 11:12am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 7.96 - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: How do I get started? Posted By: greyman Subject: How do I get started? Date Posted: 26 November 2004 at 12:25pm A beginners guide to survivalism. Okay, you're new to the forum, just joined or perhaps a guest. You're interested in survivalism or good old self sufficiency and have read a book or two about it. The trouble is you are a little daunted by it all, the amount of gear and "stuff" that people on the forum talk about getting or needing. So where do you begin? My aim is to give an intro to those new at the game with only a small to moderate amount of disposable income. Firstly, set a series of achievable goals and work towards them. One way, a method I have used, is to think about likely events, rank them from most to least likely and think of what you need to meet the perceived threat, starting with the most likely to occur. Let us begin by saying the most likely threat you think you will face is a short-term (1-5 days) loss of services. The power has gone out, water is out, that kind of thing. Stop and think of your present diet for a moment and what tinned foods you eat on a regular basis now. I'm assuming that you own a BBQ already, as many Aussie households do. Below is a list of what to get over two fortnights to cover this eventuality. FORTNIGHT 1: 2 x boxes of candles, 10 x packets of matches, 1 x spare can opener, 1 x case of tinned spaghetti (12 tins), 1 x case of tinned peaches (12 tins), 1 x tin of powdered milk, 1 x torch with batteries. FORTNIGHT 2: Refill the gas bottle for the BBQ, 1 x tarp, 1 x 1kg bag of sugar, 1 x 2kg bag of rice, 1 x packet of lollies, 2 x plastic buckets, 20 litres of drinking water.

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After 1 month you have now BASICALLY prepared yourself to meet the most common threat that you have identified. You have a tarp to patch a hole in the roof should you have suffered storm damage, you have emergency lighting, you have water, food and buckets for sanitary use. Already in your home you have bedding and clothing. Should services ever actually fail, on Day 1 use the food from the fridge exclusively, as it will spoil first. Day 2-3, fire up the BBQ and enjoy a good lunch and dinner using the food from the freezer. After Day 3 you can start using the tinned food and rice. During the first month of purchasing goods there are a couple simple steps to enhance your preparations. Methodically clean the cistern of your toilet and ensure you leave no cleaning products in it. Should services fail you can use the water held there (not the bowl!) to have another 10 litres or so of water for washing hands, etc. Do the same for your windscreen wiper reservoir in your car. Check things such as torches to make sure the batteries work. When you buy a torch make sure it takes batteries that you have in the house already, such as your TV remote. As I said, this is a basic starting point. Next time we will look at another common Aussie threat - fire. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Replies: Posted By: Pegasus Date Posted: 26 November 2004 at 7:13pm Greyman, compliments. This is the type of stuff newbies are looking for. Most of it is common sense. BUT sometimes one just needs to read such info to have the "oh yeah" effect happen. My two (now un-used) home brew barrels will henceforth be full of water! (what's that saying again........if you don't aks questions you are dumb forever, if you do, you only look dumb for one 1 minute!)

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Posted By: Twodogs Date Posted: 26 November 2004 at 7:27pm I keep a spare gas bottle for the bbq. I'm certain that if power went out for more than a few days the local bottle filler will either have run out or have a bloody long queue.

Posted By: ZULU Date Posted: 26 November 2004 at 7:32pm Ive been eyeing all those refill "swap and go" bottles that most service stations have in a cage...if it came down to it, they would make a nice addition to ZULUs heating and cooking fund...all contributions are tax deductable.

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ZULU

Posted By: Guests Date Posted: 26 November 2004 at 7:49pm What I find helpful is to always be on the lookout for a bargain... For example, today on the way home my wife asked me to stop in to Woollies and grab a couple of things. While there I saw a stand that had cans of name brand spaghetti for 50c (yes I checked the expiry, all okay), so I picked up 10 extra cans for $5.00! Taking advantage of opportunities when you see them, will add greatly to your surplus.

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 26 November 2004 at 8:29pm geezer303 wrote: My two (now un-used) home brew barrels will henceforth be full of water! Hey, no problems. If I've helped someone else on this forum better prepare themselves, then I've done my good deed for the day. If anyone else has some handy hints in relation to meeting this first scenario, such as adding a battery powered radio to the basic list, then go for it. Remember that it is aimed at being a basic guide. No need to name specific brands. If the less experienced need recommendations they can ask. I'll cover the next scenario in a couple days. I'm about to go "camping" in the back yard with my six year old son! ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: WarriorWoman Date Posted: 27 November 2004 at 8:47am Also I would add - remember sanitary products if there is a female in the house. If no shops open due to power failure etc and its that time of the month - very uncomfortable without them. WW

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Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 27 November 2004 at 9:30am Don't worry WW, that has been factored in for longer term. I'm sure most women would have enough in the house to see them through a few days of service failure. Right then, in one month we have prepared our home to meet our perceived most likely challenge. The next challenge we have identified is fire - either bushfire or house fire. Firstly make sure you have at least one smoke detector fitted and test it to make sure the battery isn't flat. You still see on the news that people die in their homes during their sleep because they did not have these to warn of a fire. So, what do we need to buy in order to counter the threat of fire? There is a little more expense than our previous preparations. Let us take a look at what we need to get over 4 fortnights, continuing on where we left off at fortnight 3. FORTNIGHT 3: 1 x fire blanket, 1 x fire extinguisher, 1 x tarp. FORTNIGHT 4: 1 x axe, 1 x blanket/person 6 x cans of tuna, 6 x rolls of toilet paper. FORTNIGHT 5: 1 x mattock (preferred) or spade, 2 x buckets, 20 litres of drinking water, 1 x case of tinned soup (12 tins), 1 x 6pack of fruit drinks. FORTNIGHT 6: 1 x first aid kit, 1 x spare garden hose, 1 x length of rope, 1 x case of creamed rice (12 tins). Now, after a further two months you have the BASICS to prevent or fight a fire, or the very basics to provide shelter should you lose the house. The fire blanket and extinguisher can be used indoors for kitchen fires, the axe and mattock/shovel can be used to clear fire breaks and remove debris. You have extra buckets to fill to throw water on hot spots and hoses (I assume you had at least one to begin with) to spray grass fires or hose off your roof with. Hopefully you avoid injury, but you have a first aid kit to treat any minor problems. A word of advice, store this gear (except fire blanket and extinguisher) outside of the house, perhaps in a garden

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shed away from the house. If you have a house fire, at least in the shed you have a tarp (shelter, if you don't use the shed itself), blankets, food and water. The rope can be used to put up the tarp and you have some toilet paper for convenience. Some other tips that you can do in the two months you are stocking up. If you have a vacuum seal bag, store 1 or 2 sets of clothes/person in the bag and place it with your fire prep stores. If you lose the house, at least you'll have more than just "the shirt on your back". Run through a fire drill with your kids, you know, the old "get down low and go, go, go", touching doors to feel for heat. Teach an older child to phone 000. Clean out the gutters on your house. Hot embers can land there and ignite the leaves. Clean up your garden, or put in a fire break around your property. Scavenge an old drum or barrel to have full of water and keep an old woolen jumper on hand. You can soak the jumper in the water and use it to beat out flames. This is a basic level of preparedness. You could add to this by purchasing knapsack sprayers and so on, but I did say that this was for lower income families. Next time we will go on with mid-term loss of services. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 27 November 2004 at 9:37am P.S. My camping trip with my oldest son went well. We tried it a year ago but he was so excited he couldn't get to sleep! This time round he was much calmer and really enjoyed it. We woke up at Sparrow's Fart this morning. So he has had his introduction to the "outdoors" (tongue in cheek), and hopefully he'll take a real shine to it! ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: WarriorWoman Date Posted: 27 November 2004 at 12:16pm Greyman You would be surprised how unprepared some women can be! WW

------------Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 27 November 2004 at 3:53pm kev65 wrote: Hey Greyman, the fire idea got me thinking, all we have is a smoke alarm!! That won't put anything out!

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Another good deed done! Ah, if only it was always this easy! Yes WW, I'm aware of what you mean. I'm married and my wife was always running out. We now have a stockpile of the "Demure" range. 9 or 10 packets of ten "overnights", 4 packets of supers and two packs of just normal liners. We'll need to stock up again soon on the normal liners, but that'll last her six months easily enough. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: WarriorWoman Date Posted: 27 November 2004 at 6:24pm Well stocked Mrs greyman! WW

------------Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

Posted By: Guests Date Posted: 27 November 2004 at 7:23pm fires - remember that synthetic fibres in clothes will melt. try to wear clothes with natural fibres. the British discovered this in the Falklands war. when thier ships where hit many sailors where burnt when their synthetic uniforms melted. if they had been wearing natural fibres they would not have been burnt so badly. synthetic clothing / webbing / uniforms where lighter. reducing overall weight of a vessel was important to give the ships better speed and manouverability, but they paid a price for this when onboard fires broke out in battlefield conditions. after the war I believe a report recommended returning uniforms to natural fibres.

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Posted By: TalktotheFist Date Posted: 27 November 2004 at 9:07pm suggestion: how about packing a box of bird seed, some pegs and string, one could practice trapping while living of the initial supplies..

Posted By: Astro Date Posted: 28 November 2004 at 10:40am .

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------------wingadingdingdingalinglinglingdedingdingdingwing

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 29 November 2004 at 2:03pm It has now taken you three months of real time to cover the scenarios mentioned above, scenarios that can happen in any Australian town in any given year. Our next installment looks at a medium term loss of services. This could be anywhere from 1-10 weeks. A recent example of this is the Longford gas explosion in Victoria. We need to spend a little more money over a longer time frame than the previous two scenarios. We start at fortnight 7. FORTNIGHT 7: 10 x packets of vegetable seeds, 6 x boxes of candles, 1 x big roll of garbage bags, 1 x 20-litre fuel jerry (filling it when fuel prices are low), 2 x 500gm iodised salt. FORTNIGHT 8: 3 x 5kg bags of rice, 4 x 500gm packets of barley, 1 x spare gas bottle for the BBQ, 1 x sewing kit. FORTNIGHT 9: Buy and install a small rainwater tank to catch roof run-off. FORTNIGHT 10: 2 x 2kg boxes of washing powder, 2 x sets of spare batteries for each torch, 24 x rolls of toilet paper, 3 months worth of female sanitary products (if there are women in your group), 1 x bucket. FORTNIGHT 11: 8 x litres of olive oil, 6 x tins of SPAM, 6 x boxes of candles, 10 x boxes of matches, 4 x packets of sultanas, 5kg of flour, 4kg of sugar. FORTNIGHT 12: 1 x portable stove, 10 x portable stove gas refills, A second first aid kit (stocked with spare medicines you currently need, ie asthma inhaler etc), 1 x case of tinned baked beans (12 tins), 3 x tins of powdered milk.

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FORTNIGHT 13: 1 x water purifier, 1 x bottle of dishwashing liquid, 1 x 50-pack of "Chuppa Chups". FORTNIGHT 14: 1 x case of tinned soup (12 tins), 1 x case of tinned tomato (12 tins), 1 x carton of long life custard, 1 x bottle of disinfectant, 6 x 500gm soup mix, 6 x tins of tuna, 6 x 1kg packets of spaghetti, 4 x assorted spices (oregano, basil, pepper, garlic?) We are now a little over half way through the year and your preps are looking good. From the food you've stocked up on, you have enough for about 100 basic meals, not including what we have stored away in the previous two scenarios. You could ration it to two meals a day, supplementing it with what can still be purchased in stores. (Society hasn't collapsed!) I prefer buying smaller units of food, as if one packet of something becomes contaminated (weavils, etc), I haven't lost it all. You have a total of 108 candles now, lighting enough to see you through about three months. You have spare gas for the BBQ and a backup in the portable stove to cook with. You have a means to store and purify water. You have hygiene products (the bare minimum) to clean the house, clean essential clothing, eating utensils and so on. With any spare cash you can add to this further to improve your situation (vitamins, toothpaste, etc). Some other tips now. When you buy the seeds ensure you get a variety of them that can be planted at different times of the year. (You don't want all your crops coming into season in Summer, leaving you with nothing if trouble struck in Winter). Put yourself to work one weekend early in your preparation schedule and dig up some of that useless lawn. Pick a sunny but sheltered position and put in a vegie patch. If the rainwater tank goes in during summer fill it with tap water so you have a supply instantly should services stop tomorrow. If you use medicines for ailments now, say Mylanta for stomach troubles, ensure you have some in your second first aid kit. The lollies are good rewards for children, or just to enjoy once in a while as a sweet treat. Some spices are important to add variety. Nobody wants to eat tasteless food for weeks on end! Next time we will look at the possibility of a terrorist attack. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 29 November 2004 at 2:07pm Incidentally, the soup mix is great for bulking up a soup. By adding a cup of soup mix (250 grams) it will fill you up considerably. Add in some potato and leeks from the garden to enhance even further. Spuds are easy to grow in freshly composted soil. They take up quite a bit of room, so be aware of that if you've never grown them before. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

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Posted By: Muad'Dib Date Posted: 30 November 2004 at 7:56am For me the #1 item is TOOLS! When things break with the tools and knowledge to fix things people will trade everything in your list to have the broken items repaired.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 30 November 2004 at 8:58am Tools come into my equation in the category of "Severe Economic Ressession", which follows tomorrow's Terrorist Attack post. I fully agree Muad'Dib (incidentally, what does that mean?) that tools are very important. The only tools that I have mentioned so far have been an axe and a mattock or a spade. I considered adding a hammer and nails to the last scenario, though I considered that many people are likely to have a hammer. (and some screwdrivers and wrenches/spanners. Most folk have some tools that would see them through a 10-week period.) I've deliberately kept this to a minimum so that cost is not a major turn-off and that people can see that a healthy degree of self-sufficiency is possible in a relatively short amount of time. Thanks for the input though. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Self-Sufficient Date Posted: 30 November 2004 at 10:45pm Muad'Dib is a SF character from Frank Herbert's Dune Novel. Basically he was an off worlder called Paul Atraides who arrived on Dune to exploit the planet, along with several other very important families, through a product called spice. The spice allowed navigation to occur through space, so who controlled the spice basically controlled the known universe. He ended up becoming the prophet for the native people and leading them to a position of power instead of being simple serfs. I actually liked children of Dune better.

Posted By: Windy Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 2:13am I am a newbie to this forum, and have really enjoyed this posting. I wanted to add my 2 cents worth about womans sanitary needs. Both are small Aussie traders offering alternatives to the supermarket stuff. http://www.radpads.com.au/ - http://www.radpads.com.au/ and http://www.keeper.com.au/moon.html - http://www.keeper.com.au/moon.html

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 8:41am Thanks for the contribution Windy. There are a few women on the forum now, certainly more now than when I first joined. Any contribution is welcome, as are you. I will try to pull my finger out today and post my next installment! ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 8:48am Also, for those still to have kids or expect to be grandparents, reusable cloth nappies - but fitted ones (trust me you want these). http://www.moonpads.com.au/Zappy_system.html - http://www.moonpads.com.au/Zappy_system.html http://cuddlybub.com.au/nappy_more_info.html - http://cuddlybub.com.au/nappy_more_info.html John M

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

Posted By: cartz Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 9:04am Hi Windy, I was going to post a link to the keeper too. My wife has used one for years and swears by it. Cheers, cartz.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 11:56am Our next installment will take up much of the remainder of the year, because there are a few big-cost items here. Terrorism can strike anywhere, but in all likelihood it will be one of our larger cities, and most likely on the East Coast. We resume at fortnight 15, and I am assuming you are the average Aussie family with 2 children.

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FORTNIGHT 15: 2 x gas masks FORTNIGHT 16: 12 x rolls of duct tape, quantity of Potassium Iodide (KI). FORTNIGHT 17: 1 x .22 calibre rifle, 1 x box of 500 .22 bullets. FORTNIGHT 18: 80 litres of water, 4 x thermal blankets, 1 x portable shower, quantity of plastic sheeting.

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FORTNIGHT 19: 2 x gasmasks (if you have children, otherwise use the money to take your wife/girlfriend/husband/whatever out for a really good dinner and maybe a movie for putting up with your crazy ideas this far!) FORTNIGHT 20: 1 x personal radiation counter. FORTNIGHT 21: 1 x medical kit specialising in burns. FORTNIGHT 22: disposable oversuits for each person. FORTNIGHT 23: 1 x box of latex gloves, 1 x sealable 55-litre plastic container, 1 x bottle of disinfectant, 1 x scrubbing brush, another 80 litres of water. FORTNIGHT 24: 1 x fluro lantern, 1 x set of spare batteries for the lantern. quantity of liquid soap. So, what is all this stuff for? Should there be an explosion of some sort, your family has access to disposable oversuits, gas masks and latex gloves to protect yourselves. Make sure you begin taking the KI immediately you hear of an attack, just in case some form of "dirty bomb" has been set off. Start sealing up the house using the plastic sheeting and duct tape, with one of you monitoring the personal radiation counter. At the first sign of radiation put on your protective gear. Set up the portable shower in the bathroom (Hopefully the bathroom is near the laundry entrance to the house. It will form the only way into or out of the house.) The bathroom now becomes your decontamination room. The sealable container, the 160 litres of water and scrubbing brush are kept here. The water and scrubbing brush can be used to decontaminate the oversuits, then they are put in the container. Using some cloth and soapy water, decontaminate the skin using the pinch-blotting method. Don't rub, because this will only spread the contamination. Put everything in the container afterwards. Burns are possible (think of Bali) hence the "burns medical kit". With the house sealed up avoid fires (even from candles), which will use oxygen, so use the lantern if the power is out. Monitor the radio for information. You have

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a rifle to protect your family from possible looters.

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What can you do in the time you are purchasing this equipment? At the start of fortnight 15 apply for your firearms licence and remember the 28 day cooling off period. Label each person's mask and practice putting them on and testing for leaks. Do a first aid course if you haven't already. Do a test run and seal up the house one night of a weekend. Find a bug out route should you be in the path of fallout. If you live near the centre of Syndey or Melbourne especially, consider relocating further out. This is by no means a foolproof plan, but it will certainly go some way to ensuring you have a much better chance than your neighbours of surviving a possible incident. Chemical detection paper, somewhat hard to get, NBC decontamination kits and so on are great if you can get them. With a few weeks left of your first year of preparations take the family away on a camping trip and get close to nature. Use the time to explore possible retreats. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Disordah Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 2:15pm Maybe you should write this all up in a .doc... ------------A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh?

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 10:56pm Disordah wrote: Maybe you should write this all up in a .doc... My computer skills are woeful! Wouldn't even know how to start! ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Self-Sufficient Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 11:01pm You have to learn the Marvels of cut and paste

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 02 December 2004 at 11:12pm I can cut and paste mate! Just not exactly sure what Disordah meant by writing it all up in a .doc. Does he

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mean writing up as a Word document or something? I still haven't worked out how to attach pictures on the forum, and I've been posting here for over two years!! ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Patriot Date Posted: 03 December 2004 at 12:37am Grey: I've given your post a little bit of formatting, made it into a .pdf document and emailed it to sparhawk. Over to you guys.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 03 December 2004 at 8:11am Cheers bloke! What happens to it from there? Does it go in the downloads section or something?

------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 04 December 2004 at 5:45pm We are now one year into our preparations and have the basics in place to deal with four different possibilities without going bankrupt. Carrying on from where we left off before, you have returned from an enjoyable camping trip and now aim to tackle the possibility of a severe economic recession. We start at fortnight one of our second year. FORTNIGHT 1: 3 x fruit trees, 2 x sets of batteries for torches and radio, 3 x boxes of snail pellets, 5 litres of olive oil, 10 x packets of vegetable seeds. FORTNIGHT 2: $150 worth of silver coins. FORTNIGHT 3: 1 x shovel, 1 x pick, 3 x rolls of aluminium foil, 8 x portable gas stove refills, 1kg of iodised salt. FORTNIGHT 4:

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5000 rounds of .22 calibre ammo. FORTNIGHT 5: 1 x hammer, 2kg of honey, 10kg of rice, $100 worth of silver coins. FORTNIGHT 6: 1 x roll of chicken wire, 1 x hand drill, 1 x skinning knife, 5kg of washing powder. FORTNIGHT 7: 20 litres of long-life fruit juice, 6 x packets of razor blades, 6 x boxes of candles, 3 x packets of female sanitry products. FORTIGHT 8: 10 x rabbit traps, (antique shops sell them for $4-5 each) 1 x spanner set, $100 worth of silver coins. FORTNIGHT 9: 2 new sets of sturdy work clothing/person, 1 x set of "practical" shoes/person, 1 x vacuum seal bag. FORTNIGHT 10 1 x fuel jerry (filled when petrol is cheap), 1 x 1kg bag of assorted nails, spare handles for pick, shovel and axe, 1 x bottle of linseed oil, 2 x bottles of shampoo, 2 x cans of shaving cream, 1 x case of tinned Irish stew (12 tins). FORTNIGHT 11: 1 x screwdriver set, $150 worth of silver coins. FORTNIGHT 12: 1 x cast iron cooking pot, 5kg of split yellow peas, 10kg of flour, 10kg of sugar, 1 x wind-up clock, engine oil (enough to change your car's oil at least once). FORTNIGHT 13: 1 x 12-gauge shotgun, 50 rounds of 00 buckshot, 150 rounds of No 7 shot.

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You now have a little extra food added to your stockpile, including ingredients to make damper. More importantly you have the means to grow your own vegies and fruit, or catch and skin your own rabbits by trapping them. You can shoot pidgeons or ducks for meat as an alternative. If owning a shotgun does not appeal to you and you live near the ocean, replace it with a good beach fishing rod and the necessary tackle. You have the basics to build a small chicken coup (minus the timber that you can scrounge from anywhere) to raise your own chickens. In your supplies you have an alternative means of cooking, supplemented now with more gas and a cast iron pot. You have additional hygiene products including shaving gear (presentation could still be important to finding employment). You have linseed oil to care for the wooden handles of your tools and you could use the sump oil from your car to keep the tools themselves from rusting when you change the oil. You have some clothes set aside (stored in a vacuum sealed bag) as well as shoes. For young children buy these items a couple sizes larger than they currently wear. They'll grow into them and you can always stuff newspaper into the toes of the shoes if need be. The clock can be used to avoid being late, and saving you a few dollars on electricity. Lastly you have $500 worth of silver coins to trade with after the dollar has tumbled. The coins will hold value nicely. So, what can you do in these 6 months? First, plant those fruit trees! Hold a garage sale to get rid of the crap you have that will be of no use should things go sour (Kids toys no longer used, clothing that everyone has grown out of, that spare video recorder you don't ever use, etc) Search your local area for rabbit warrens and do a little trapping (don't wipe the rabbits out, manage them!) If you don't own pushbikes, ask family to buy you each one for birthdays/Christmas (no fuel to pay for and they're quicker and easier than walking). Practice your shooting, bath the kids instead of showering them to cut down water usage, and use the water on the vegie garden or to flush the toilet. Learn to service your car, trade your car for a more fuel economical model or convert it to gas, Get any dental work done now, and have a medical checkup. That's about it for now. You are not immune from the effects of an economic recession, but you will be much more comfortable than many of those around you. I welcome other suggestions on how to save a few dollars here and there, or other useful hints.

------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 10:28pm Just for a little perspective, I have been plodding along at preparing for events for a number of years now. In the first few years I didn't really have any particular goals, just hording ammo, buying some cool gear once in a while, such as a night vision monocular, and buying up plenty of books on a wide range of subjects. A couple years ago I started buying and storing food. In the last 12-18 months I finally began prioritising my threats and found many holes. I have not been religiously buying up things on a regular basis, but I have been making inroads into it. Of the five subjects I have mentioned above, I have completed four of them, with plenty more food than what I have outlined. I still need two more gas masks, iodine tablets and a radiation counter to finish of my terrorism threat list. But I also have equipment to cater for other threats that I have not yet mentioned, such as large scale overseas war, total economic collapse and so on. So you can see that it does take a lot of time to build up your preps. If you haven't started, get cracking!!! ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Windy Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 11:28pm What's the best way to store the rice and other food stuffs that are not canned?

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Posted By: Solsys Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 12:02am Windy wrote: What's the best way to store the rice and other food stuffs that are not canned?

Looks like someone is going in the right direction Perhaps we could create a sticky topic with a list of all topics discussed here on - food (topics linked to stockpile composition, stockpile containers etc) - weapons (what weapons for which purpose, storing & maintenance, ammo) - vehicles etc etc. Windy, look up the "survival tactics and equipement" section, and use the search engine, to find the very usefull info that has accumulated here. There are also references to usefull books.

------------Vulnerant Omnes, Ultima Necat

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 8:51am Windy, there are a variety of methods, it just depends on how long you intend to store before you eat it. We (my family) buy all our non-canned goods in smaller packages than some other people might. Our reasoning for this is two-fold. If one package becomes contaminated with rodents/weavils/whatever, we have only lost a small portion of our food. The second benefit is that we have handy sized packages that we transfer to the pantry. The downside is we pay more per kilo than if we bought it in 20kg sacks. We store ours in light-proof sealable plastic trunks. In the few years we have been storing food we haven't had anything go bad on us yet. The secret is rotating your food. Write the purchase date in permanent pen on the outside of the packaging and use the oldest accordingly. Other methods of storage may include dry ice, vacuum sealing, etc. As Solsys said, have a quick look using the search facility on the forum. There is plenty of info. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Pegasus Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 7:16pm Greyman, we experienced a medium earthquake of magnitude 5.4 Sunday morning. For a region that doesn't "normally" experience anything above 2 or 3 (which you can't really feel); mother nature sure gave us a wake up call! My point? Well, thanks to your lists, I would have been better prepared IF it had been worse.... such as loss of

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electricity and water! Survival really isnt a game! ....

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 9:12pm Where abouts are you Geezer? Judging from what I've read elsewhere on the forum, you're living outside of Australia at the moment. And yes, it's not really a game, it's a life-long commitment to safeguard the welfare of you and your family against as many threats as you can. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Pegasus Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 10:51pm Greyman, near enough to the epicentre that we got the sh*ite scared out of us! I realize that others experience this magnitude quite regularly, however going back to my original point..... mother nature is no longer playing by human rules. Thus, out of the proverbial "nowhere"; we get a medium earthquake! It really is a wake up call.... it's only going to get worse! The part that pulls your heart strings is when your daughter is frightened out of her wits.... and is asking "what's happenning daddy, what's happenning" ? What do you answer? That the world has gone mad? Or just mother nature? Or both! http://www.news.ch/detail.asp?ID=197608 - http://www.news.ch/detail.asp?ID=197608

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 11:49pm So, what do you do over there then? How long have you been living there? My sister-in-law has a sister living over there. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

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Posted By: Pegasus Date Posted: 07 December 2004 at 2:09am this and that.... too long!

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Might have seen her down the "outback".... you never know. (It's the most

un-Australian "Australian" bar Iv'e ever seen..... but hey it keeps the locals happy!) -------------

Posted By: Caligula Date Posted: 07 December 2004 at 2:42am Hi , The priorities on the storage of stuff was interesting , although you have to be careful when taking notice of the recommendations of books as many of the writers have an imaginative view , which will sound good to readers until tested.. May I cover areas from above from memory ? Although I am certainly not refuting anything , I might be able to add to the general confusion. Fire is scary stuff , and any kind of bad fire will be accompanied by abnormal daily temperatures and strong winds. A garden hose is absolutely next to useless...apart from filling up the guttering. (downpipes blocked with plugs) In the event of a fire at home , close all the drapes , blinds and curtains - absolutely ensure that no window has been left open , drink lots of fluids AND WAIT IT OUT! Do not stuff round the garden spraying ineffectually. Most injuries occur when people are caught in fireblast or are asphyxiated by either smoke or lack of Oxygen. If the house catches fire , it will be from the outside , so there will be plenty of time for an orderly evacuation. If you are caught in a car , turn the lights on and leave them on. If you are surrounded by fire or the car has a vapour-lock and stalls - get kids onto floor at back seats and cover them with mats , coats , blankets - anything. Radiated heat is the killer , so anything between skin and heat is ideal. Wind windows up and get down low ! Cars do NOT explode like they do in the movies , even if the tyres start to burn. Fire will generally pass in less than 10 mins and all can last that long. If you are caught in the open - you are in the sh*t , and will have needed to plan where to shelter it out. If it is a grass fire , and flames are less than 180 cms or 6 ft then you will 'probably' be able to run back through it onto burned ground. Cover face , hold breath and close eyes if you dare.------If you are in the hills , your best position is over the crest of a hill on the side away from the fire. Fire travels approx. 16 times faster up a hill compared to down because of updraught - you will NEVER outrun it. Shelter can be found in the track ruts and drainage ditches in cuttings on bush tracks - and once in a wombat hole ( and there is a story there!) Clothing for fires should be preferably woollen , otherwise cotton. Wool shrinks from flame and will smoulder but rarely burn . Cotton will scorch and convey heat. Synthetics may melt into skin AND THEN ignite causing irreparable damage. Balaclavas , scarves , gardening gloves , sunglasses and a personal bottle of water are essential for playing with fire.

Some other considerations * choose any foodstuffs with a view to balancing the necessities. Baked beans and spaghetti are hardly the best nutrition. Some canned vegies and fruits preserve some basic vitamins even after processing. Obviously fresh food is eaten first , but there are methods of keeping unprocessed food for weeks - and in winter , months. This is not a huge consideration with healthy adults but a definite factor in planning with kids and any oldies. Remember

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too , that planning for deprivation entails you subscribe or aim at an average of 1500 calories a day for a working adult , rather than the 3,000 to 4,000 you regularly dispose of. Kids are a bit above half of that. * several Bic lighters are invaluable. They will work after being in water , and for some months each. Matches are for amateurs , losers and hobbyists. (or those with teeth caries )

* a personal knife ( if not two) is essential , ideally a fixed blade of not less than 6" and a good folder. This is a subject by itself. Sharpening is rarely accomplished without a lot of practice. Any knife should be able to be drawn across a sheet of 80gsm paper whilst held in midair , and slice multiple pieces away from it. * a personal water container should always be carried - or if working , be nearby. I have found a wine cask inner to be superlative as it will carry a mouthful to 4 -5 litres , weighs nothing except the water and folds away to negligible space. I carry mine in a small cotton bag with a sling. * a personal shelter can be made from a couple of large garbo bags. They are waterproof but will encourage body condensation so you cann expect warmth from them. They fold away into nothing. * food is important and a minimal amount can be carried. Most adults can function well for maybe 7-9 days without food but not without water. The worst is 3- 4 days when the stomach begins to contract. Our culture indulges us so much that shortages common to people in other cultures feel like a disaster to us. * firearms and ammunition need to be stored properly. Ammo will keep for years and firearms require at least 6 monthly refurbishment unless 'cosmolined'. * unfortunately , much of what you read is not within the bounds of reality. You can prepare , store and plan for years - but at the first sign of disaster , someone nastier than you are prepared to be will take it all away from you - sooo easily. All the protestations of toughness and determination will not stand up to someone who has spent a lifetime fleecing the dumbclucks.

Regards............................Caligula

------------"Necessity is the Mother of Invention"

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 07 December 2004 at 8:29am Thanks for the info, especially in regards to fire Caligula. Naturally your location will largely influence the type of fire you will encounter. The food I've mentioned is not a 100% balanced diet, but that was not my aim. The aim was for people to get the basics in place to meet certain threats on a low to moderate income. The food mentioned in most cases is a cheap way to BEGIN a program of bulk storage. If people have extra cash they can, and should, add to it. I think I mentioned that people could supplement the preps by buying vitamins somewhere back in one of my posts if they had spare money. As for garbage bags as shelter, well, that is an absolute last measure. I'm sure many have seen people sheltering under a garbage bag on a wet and windy day at the footy and seen it slowly rip and fall apart. IMO a tarp is the minimum anyone should have.

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Knives, while important, can be overrated. There is no real need for a big knife. An axe or machete is better for chopping, a gun is better for defence or intimidation and a humble Stanley knife is better for fine cutting. My first choice in knives is a skinning knife, followed by a Stanley knife, then a multi tool with a blade on it. Good idea about carrying the Mylar wine cask inner. I might add one to my pocket bug out kit. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 08 December 2004 at 11:47am Having done some research, you might next decide that the threat of disease pandemic might be the next subject to tackle. This is a difficult area, and I'm sure there are people on the forum with more knowledge than I on this topic. Here are some basic things you can purchase. We resume at fortnight 14. FORTNIGHT 14: 2 x boxes of surgical masks, 3 x boxes of latex gloves, 1 x bottle of multi-vitamins, 2 x scrubbing brushes, 4 x boxes of sterilising tablets (as used for baby bottles etc.), 1 x shovel. FORTNIGHT 15: 1 spare gas mask filter/gas mask. FORTNIGHT 16: 2 x bottles of disinfectant, 1 x mop and bucket, 6 x cans of insect spray, 10 kg of flour, 1 x case of tinned fruit (12 tins). FORTNIGHT 17: A source of anti-biotics FORTNIGHT 18: 1 x case of tinned soup (12 tins), 4 x cans of powdered milk, Children's educational material, A source of pain relief medication. FORTNIGHT 19: 1 x spare water filter, 2 x board games, 20 litres of long life fruit juice, 1 x set of spare batteries for radio and torches, 1 x spare globe/torch, 1 x box of beef jerky. You now have a little extra food to add to your supply, as well as the fresh vegetables you are now growing in the garden. If needed, you have a spare filter for gas masks, spare filter to treat your water, and a supply of cleaning

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products to keep the house disinfected. Use the extra shovel exclusively for removing and burying waste. The priority as I see it is isolation. At the first sign of a pandemic take some holidays from work and get the kids out of school. Store up some annual leave each year so that you can take a month off if needed at any time. (I'm taking 5 weeks off at Christmas, leaving me with 7 weeks up my sleeve for emergencies) You will want to continue educating the kids, therefore you should have material available. The games will help alleviate boredom that comes from being confined. The adults can spend time reading from your library (you do have a library don't you!!) on how to treat illnesses, and general survival literature. Throw in some novels to lighten the reading every now and then. You could be isolated for some time! You have medicines to treat any symptoms of disease (better stock the supply if you can by whatever means. Just make sure you have some idea of proper application, dosages etc.) When venturing out into the garden make sure you wear a surgical mask as a minimum. Take turns going outside to get some sunlight as you work the vegie patch. A couple of other pointers for these couple of months of preps. Don't leave breeding grounds for mosquitoes in the yard. Mossies are notorious for spreading some diseases. Remove pools of water, such as ornamental fish ponds, open buckets etc, to stop them breeding. Make sure your flyscreens are free from holes and that the doors seal properly. Give exposed skin a quick spray if you have to venture outside near dawn or dusk especially. Begin to exercise regularly to give your body a better chance to resist some diseases/infections. Cleanliness is very important. Make sure everyone washes their hands before any food preparation or consumption. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Caligula Date Posted: 10 December 2004 at 3:48am Hi again , I have been doing some thinking on the 'stash' mentality and feel that there are a lot of holes in it that may be missed by many people. Preparation and storage in an Urban environment I feel would be generally a waste of time. If you have it and others don't it will be taken away from you in short order. You Cannot keep secrets in the street - it's like trying to keep a BBQ confidential. There are not enough of you in a house , you do not have enough of the right type of firearms , you do not have the minor tac abilities to use them and you can be burned out in short order. Now , a street-full of supporters is another question - but highly unlikely. A more Rural spot where you are not in sight of the access road and have room to do all the things envisaged is ideal. Virgin Bush is not a good option as you have none of the amenities that make life acceptable. Food storage as followed by the Americans I have met and stayed with leaves me a little cold. Processed food is fine , provided it is nutritional enough to warrant being shelved. Kilograms of Pasta and baked beans will be excreted through you readily and very little will remain. This is not a good thing ! You should aim to have appropriate percentages of all food groups representated. I have lived in very small villages in Asia and S. America. The fare is generally monotonous and basic but will not only keep you alive but allow a certain calorific expenditure for work. Generally , esoteric equipment such as electronics seemed often to be more trouble than they were worth in such environments - and caused misstrust and envy. Subsequently , I kept such possessions secret. In one village where I inadvertently meddled by debriding a large infection in a woman , I found myself treated as the local shaman and people would come from other villages with ailments both real and imagined. I had a

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comprehensive small Med kit , but not enough knowledge to use it effectively. I had some minimal Anatomical and physiological texts but without guidance impossible to use without killing people. With respect to Food , I would consider storing rice , tens of kilograms of it. Canned and dried fish will keep for years. Any vegetable and/or fruit that still has a modicum of Vitamin B Complex after preservation is essential. Flour can be kept better than grains , and is more compact for nutrition per mass unit. Some canned meats are good for years. Others degrade rapidly. Petrol does not last and loses IC efficiency after some months. Batteries have shelf-life of years but solar cell chargers are essential. Rather than a library of paper books , e-books can be stored on chips such as USB flash pens , or on metal oxide CDs and PCs can be battery powered and provided for in parts to guarantee some decades. Indeed , if one textbook with illustrations takes say , .3 MB of storage then a Floppy disc may contain 5 such books (1.44 MB) a CD (650MB) might contain some 2,000 books and a DVD ( approx 4.3 GB )might have some 12 thousand titles. The DVD fron the E-library at Project Gutenberg........ http://www.gutenberg.org/cdproject/ http://www.gutenberg.org/cdproject/ has about 10,000 books on it , I think. Include in the above the ability to use a personalized Search Engine then a small elementary PC with a few dozen DVDs could give you the equivalent of the State Library with a means to search every index. Can you 'harden' a small PC against Electronic Pulse from a fission detonation. Yes ! Survival , in an open Lexicon , depends upon not only the availability of knowledge - but the inate ability to utilise it. Regards.........................Caligula

------------"Necessity is the Mother of Invention"

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 10 December 2004 at 11:58pm In many of my other posts Caligula, I've mentioned the necessity of rotating your goods to ensure nothing sits idle for years. My family lives by this ethos. Almost anything we buy these days goes into storage and the oldest stuff in storage goes into the pantry for consumption. I tend to disagree that you can't keep secrets in the street. None of my neighbours have the slightest notion of the veritable food mountain we have stockpiled. The reason is that I've barely said 10 words to them since I moved here 11 months ago. Personally I'm not keen on electronic libraries. If power goes out and stays out, your "books" become nothing but drink coasters. Give me a real book any time. They're quicker to sift through, easier to find info and for me personally I pick up more details on a printed page than on a screen. (ever proof read a document on screen, thought it was good and printed it off only to find a dozen mistakes on the paper copy? Happens all the time Glad you're throwing out the ideas though. Keep posting. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine. )

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 21 February 2005 at 2:59pm

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Just want to add a little thank you to all the people who have thanked me in the last couple months for writing up this post. I've been surprised by the number of people that have found this info to be a good starting point, or second opinion, in their own preps. Hope it keeps you alive should we ever have to put it into practice. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: WarriorWoman Date Posted: 21 February 2005 at 3:19pm I agree greyman 100%. No-one in my street or community know that I stockpile and I ALWAYS rotate. My kids think it is fun when e.g. we need some tuna, they go to our 'store' as they call it and they know not to discuss our life choices with their friends at school. I say simply it is our business not theirs. I caught up with someone at the local supermarket last week and as we talked outside her daughter came up to their car with their shopping and said, 'mum I only got one bottle of juice is that enough?' and mum said 'of course, the store will be here tommorrow' and thats how 99.9% of people think - god help them when the store is just not there. also, give me a good book anyday - love to read and relax (actually sometimes I just make the time for a good read!) WW

------------Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

Posted By: WarriorWoman Date Posted: 21 February 2005 at 5:01pm I agree with you Enigma - it would be a death sentence to go around now telling people of your plans for WTSHTF because once it happens your home would be attacked. Thats just human nature to take what it wants. So keep the secret I feel! WW

------------Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent.

Posted By: Mr Potatoe Date Posted: 21 February 2005 at 9:05pm You think you can keep secrets but you can't

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Right now that school your kids go to will be asking all sorts of question, trying to flush out what your preps are. Sure they won't be straight out question, they be discussion about the ravages of Bushfires or the evils of climate change. Then there will be the little question to Johnny. Johnny what would you do to prepare for those storms. Now Johnny he's too dumb to know how to be stupid so, Johnny proceeds to rattle off Mummies & Daddies prep list and it looks like something out of Ruby Ridge. Bingo, you got a WAKO style answer from an eight year old. Mark that in the calendar for later shall we. I think we call it suspicious activities. But what would I know, I'm just a SPUD

------------Nuke it from Space.......It's the only way to be sure.

Posted By: Caligula Date Posted: 22 February 2005 at 12:19am Greetings to.......... Grey ,Enigmatioso and WW..... Dear Peeple , I was being problematical when I alluded to alla yore bizness bein known in the Street. If , as Grey says , little intercourse with neighbours has drawn no suspicion...........I would contend that in many streets , being purposely uncommunicative and un-neighbourly may be a prime motivator to set tongues awaggiing. Snoopy neighbours are a plague in most streets and they can be stereotyped ! I feel that being a little eccentric may also deter people from being too observant. Pissing on the letterbox or daubing dog crap on the door tends to keep people away , especially if you are cheerful and polite , whilst eyeing their letterboxes and door jambs ! Strange noises at night accompanied by foul smells , albeit not too frequently , will make people keep their distance. ( This can be accomplished by varying the speed on cassettes or vinyls AND playing it backwards at the same time. Smells are good from several eggs in shell and rotton cream left in a jar in the sun and wafted next door with aid of a small fan) Moonbathing is also good to keep close neighbours away. Little moans and chirps when you hear them near the fence also enhances the queerness. Keep snakes or pretend to do so. Ask about a lost one when you see a neighbour. Kids can enter into the fun too. One or two ten-year-olds foaming at the mouth with you assuring other Parents

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that you don't think it is contagious keeps other kids out of your backyard and sheds. Persistent kids can be allowed to discover some pickled pigs heads in big jars with kids' names plastered on them. A model Gibbet or Guillotine in the shed also works wonders. Most 'Ned Flanders' can be dissuaded from snoopiness by persistent nose picking and groin scratching........particularly effective if you are female ! Flatulance can be engineered by a lunch of cabbage boiled with Blue Vein Cheese some hours before that Street Party. If someone insists on coming in for a brew then maggots obtained down the bait shop and sprinkled around the kitchen will impress them. I like half a bottle of thick Soy Sauce in the dunny , too. To top it off - a few spoonfuls of Parmesan or grated Romano cheese with some vinegar done for 30 seconds in the microwave creates the best vomitus pong short of the real thing. Naahh , Neighbours need never really be a worry. Show the kids lots and lots of episodes of the Addams Family and reward them for the best mimicry. Pretend there is a real Uncle Fester in the Laundry ! Leaving for work in the morning ? Spend 20 minutes looking for a gear in the driveway ! Trim the nature strip with pink scissors ! Lick the neighbours' letterbox ! Look up on the roof a lot ! I bet Ole' Spud know how to do all this stuff ! He's jus ' not gunna tell ya - coz he's got even better ones !

Regards.........................Caligula

------------"Necessity is the Mother of Invention"

Posted By: Loup Date Posted: 22 February 2005 at 3:19am Cal, I gotta laugh! That last post slayed me. Certainly we don't have a streetful of neighbours out here to worry about, but a wee bit of eccentricity, like being hairy and scary and a bit scruffy/dirty in appearance, helps keep the interest down too. Your points about keeping stuff to yourself are quite correct. I've lived in villages in Africa & Asia and I agree. Walkmans & the like are just asking for trouble, basically anything that someone else doesn't have is targeted. I kept all such out of sight wherever humanly possible. Being able to help out medically is a real 2 edged sword. It's worst where there are long term problems or complications. Also the shaman label works against you, you can just as easliy wind up being accused of poisoning/enchanting some unforturnate you've never even heard of, or accused to speaking to people in their sleep. Primitive mindsets make strange connections of karmic balance. Being able to help out mechanically/ technologically is a two edged sword again. for example: I once fixed a well pump in a village only for folk to get quite stroppy with me when it broke down later through abuse (the reason it was broken when I arrived). One place had a petrol genny and wanted it fixed - so I told them no way! Its useless! - it was fine but if I'd cleaned up the air filter so that it could breathe they'd have wanted me to bankroll the fuel,and light bulbs and maybe if they could get a vehicle from the scrappy they could have a village bus and.. and.. and.. -And I'd been there before. Truth is it was useless to them. What the F do you need with electric lights in the middle of the bloody jungle. No one reads, no one works late anyway, It was purely a trophy toy. The point is mindset! People who don't have are often very jealous/envious and like to blame others. It is

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unbelievable what some people are jealous of too. It can be the tritest of trinkets that gets you into bother. People who don't understand true causes blame others and if they can't connect the two physically they assign bad influence of some sort Its a bit like the witchcraft in medieval europe. People would rather blame you for having supernatural powers than stop being lazy and wash themselves. People are generally ignorant. You can do what you would do for yourself for them but they will hold it against you for as long as they live. They resent you for doing for them what they could not, they resent you doing better than them, they resent you for doing for somebody else when you could have done for them. It can be like dealing with adult bodied 2 year-olds with guns/spears/knives/weapon of choice. In short EXPECT sheeple who have lost out to behave like this. EXPECT them to demand that they should come before anybody else, they will tell you you owe them because you had 'better luck' or some similar rubbish. If you have to live amongst people not of your choosing PSHTF then do it for as short a time as possible and let them believe you live in the same kind of squalor as them. Practical stuff. I've honestly never found much use for a big knife except as a combat weapon. A machete I'd say is an essential. I like the squared end over the round end type. Good for clearing bush, harvesting, chopping, good for clearing growth at ground level round your crop plants. Its just as good as a camp axe and kept sharp its good for butchering and cooking too. The great thing is that it is real easy to make too - at a pinch a mild steel plate offcut and a roll of insulating tape (handle) and a hammer and a stone (hammer edge then hone). The edge can be tempered with a charcoal fire, a fan (piece of ply waved vigourously by assistant will do) and a bucket of tepid water. Partner to the machete, a real swiss army knife. The basic 'Spartan' pattern has served me well over the last 25 years, although one with a little saw and a pair of scissors is a nice luxury. Realistically they are cheap for what they are. Soap for PSHTF and everyday life in the sticks. - Good old fashioned Coal Tar. Keeps away the ringworm & skin infections. And being a natural doesn't seem to suffer from the -resistant bugs- syndrome. Come to think of it you don't see much growing in tar do you? Soothes most rashes too and most sorts of lice seem to steer well clear.

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Posted By: Solsys Date Posted: 22 February 2005 at 3:34am Very interesting post, Loup. It has allowed me to figure out many things, smaler and bigger things. This overseas experience of yours is very precious for us. I think you're spot on when speaking about a genny being a trophy toy, and it's scary. This means, whole communities are going to strip you bare only to have things to show the other communities don't have. I might even suggest that if you suggest them to do something innovative, like having sunflower fields so that we can have biodiesel, they will all be against you :

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"what ? It's fine the way it is" - "You only say that to show you have more power, but we won't be your pets you know." - "Yeah, like you have a notion of how things work" (the latter being said by those who bullied you out of your preps, because they had no brains to prepare or even to know such things had to be done). Ah, humanity. Big problem, isn't it ?

------------Vulnerant Omnes, Ultima Necat

Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 22 February 2005 at 8:46am Loup I am a big fan of Ernesto Sirolli (Esperance, Ripples in the Zambezi) and Schumacher (Small is beautiful). I find many parralells to what we are attempting as survivalists when trying to become self-sufficient. John M

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 22 February 2005 at 9:03am Amusing post Caligula! Seriously though, I still believe it is possible to keep information hidden from neighbours. We do have some neighbours around every now and then, but none of them have ever seen our food stockpile/preps. Some people in our community know that I have a vegetable garden. The thing about this is I have inspired most of them to put in their own vege patches. (or at least consider the idea!) From all appearances our place looks like any other. Not filthy, but not spotlessly clean either. It looks like a typical home with three kids. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 22 February 2005 at 11:06am Enigma wrote: We were taken to court about our "Unsightly" side of the fence? They were probably money-hungry A-holes worried their property value would drop by a few thousand dollars because you lived next to them. ------------Boo bloody hoo...

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Posted By: Loup Date Posted: 22 February 2005 at 11:32pm Solsys, you have it. The wilful ignorance of sheeple has never ceased to astound me. Nor their willingness to do violence in the name of said stupidity. Sparhawk - I'll look out for Sirolli, I've never read him.

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Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 23 February 2005 at 9:07am Loup http://www.sustainability.dpc.wa.gov.au/Seminars/sirolli/sir olli.htm - http://www.sustainability.dpc.wa.gov.au /Seminars/sirolli/sir olli.htm http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865713979/002-1 599622-5774413 - http://www.amazon.com /exec/obidos/ASIN/0865713979/002-159962 2-5774413 http://www.newcrops.uq.edu.au/newslett/ncnl7-4.htm - http://www.newcrops.uq.edu.au/newslett/ncnl7-4.htm http://www.sirolli.com/ - http://www.sirolli.com/ John M

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

Posted By: Desert reef Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 3:23pm I have found that people can keep secrets from their friends and neighbours. But its the ego that lets them out. Be humble and not flashy ..... till you have to fight

------------Be careful of the quiet ones

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Posted By: werdna Date Posted: 01 April 2005 at 12:14pm Hi everyone, have been readying the site for a couple of day's now, the information you are providing is invaluable to me and anyone else that is interested. It is hard to find like minded people out there, keep up the good work. This thread is a great place for anyone looking for information on how to start preparing. I just hope I am not to late as I have only become really aware of what is going on in the last month or so. Thanks again Andrew

Posted By: Windy Date Posted: 03 April 2005 at 8:04pm I've just finished watching The end of suburbia. I'm now very motivated to continue my preps. How much of things like toothpaste, toothbrushes, dental floss and soap are people putting away? (is there too much?)

Posted By: Mr Potatoe Date Posted: 03 April 2005 at 8:13pm toilet paper you can never have too much bog roll! Seriously, it's one of my major prep items, and razor blades too.

------------Nuke it from Space.......It's the only way to be sure.

Posted By: Bootneck Date Posted: 04 April 2005 at 12:07pm Spuds right - especially in your BOB - nothing worse that getting into the field and finding you forgot the bog roll admitedly a bit of a luxury but it weighs nothing and has several other uses that make it justifiable - just remember to keep it in a sealable plastic bag as it's no good for anything wet! If you're just on a training/outdoor weekend with the lads, bog roll makes for very good bartering if all the other lads have forgotten theirs.....in the good old days I can't tell you how much extra chocolate and lollies I had out of the other lads rat packs in return for a few bits of 'soft and absorbant' kleenex !!!!!

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Date Posted: 04 April 2005 at 1:31pm

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Something I have been think about for a while is trying to source some of the toilet paper you find in some office toilets. Im referring to the kind that doesnt have the cardboard tube in it, but instead the roll keeps going right in to the centre. Im not sure of the cost of it, but it certainly would be an efficient use space! PQ. ------------In theory there's no difference between theory and practice - but in practice there is!

Posted By: Mr Potatoe Date Posted: 04 April 2005 at 8:57pm Hey P, I know a really good source of office toilet paper. REal cheap too ------------Nuke it from Space.......It's the only way to be sure.

Posted By: deejim Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 6:20pm Totally agree with spud, we have a big thing with our preps that we must have a major hygeine kit ready to go and also stored away. JIM

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Posted By: Dawn Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 10:11pm What type of soap has the most uses, eg washing hands, hair, clothes, dishes etc? And where can it be bought? ------------create the future you want to live today, but live today like there's no future

Posted By: Guests Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 10:24pm Dawn, I have biodegradable "Earth Choice" brand dishwashing liquid put away. I was put onto this by a mate of mine who is a tiler for washing hands. They use it on the job sites.

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I have successfully used it for the following purposes: Washing dishes Washing hands - dirt, tile grout, tarzan's grip glue, engine grease, acrylic paint, etc. Washing down kitchen surfaces and stove tops Washing clothes, towels and bedding Scrubbing canvas I haven't used it in the shower or for washing hair, but i have no doubt it would work. Detergents are a very useful "Swiss Army Knife" type of soap, especially the brand above. You can easily transfer them to a smaller container for personal use and it only takes a small squirt to do a half load of washing in a machine. I have tried cheap and nasty no-name brand detergent concentrate, but it is nowhere near as effective either in concentrate or diluted forms. Hope this helps someone after the Palmolive gold has run out and they're working out how to make their own. NSA

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Posted By: Windy Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 11:33pm If you are washing in salt water, then normal soaps won't lather.. you will need special soap. I agree with NSA re the Earth Choice. Definately need good soap - prefer one without Sulfur Laurite (spelling?) as that is a harsh commercial cleaner.

The dunny paper has gone to the top of the list :)

Posted By: Vault-Co Date Posted: 06 April 2005 at 11:13am Windy wrote: I've just finished watching The end of suburbia. I'm now very motivated to continue my preps. How much of things like toothpaste, toothbrushes, dental floss and soap are people putting away? (is there too much?)

I've been collecting this kind of stuff for a long time, in anticipation of needing it at some point. I think this kind of thing is very good for morale and all personal hygiene maintenance is a good idea even in the worst of situations. Sometimes at Crazy Clarks they have a bag of 6 cheap toothbrushes for $2.00, I got quite a few of those. They

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last a couple months of regular use.

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I have bought 5 liter bottles of shampoo and dishwashing detergent, but the plastic is likely to go off sooner than the contents. Most plastic retail containers are biodegradable and you have to rotate them every 5 years. The best all purpose soap is usually labeled "all purpose soap" and you can use it for washing just about anything including laundry. As for toilet paper and napkins, I just have stacks and stacks of it piled up all over the place. Toilet paper will always run out faster than you think, you can't have too much of it. Buy it in bulk and store it anywhere that is dry and off the floor. The best containers for personal hygiene products to keep them dry and stable are ammo boxes ($5 U.S. Avg) with the rubber seal intact. You can count on these remaining good for a couple of centuries at least.

------------Civil Defense Commander Is Finally Dead! This time around you will get the real thing! Long Live Vault-OS!

Posted By: flymaster Date Posted: 06 April 2005 at 5:56pm I had a bulk drum of shampoo a while back good stuff to everything went fine for about 2 years then the stuff started to seperate even though I had been giving it a shake every month or so. Damned if I could stop it decomposing, it ended up with 3 layers of different types of guey stuff. Bloody expensive brand too even though I got it free!

Posted By: Mr Potatoe Date Posted: 06 April 2005 at 8:40pm Shampoo, You pair of nancy boy mincers.

Oh I know what you mean, I just can't get a nail file to last

------------Nuke it from Space.......It's the only way to be sure.

Posted By: Dawn

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Date Posted: 06 April 2005 at 10:52pm Vault-Co wrote: Windy wrote:

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I have bought 5 liter bottles of shampoo and dishwashing detergent, but the plastic is likely to go off sooner than the contents. Most plastic retail containers are biodegradable and you have to rotate them every 5 years.

Does this degradation of plastic also apply to oil bought in plastic recyclable bottles? And I have to ask where do you get the ammo boxes? Never would have thought of that.

------------create the future you want to live today, but live today like there's no future

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 07 April 2005 at 10:12am Try an army surplus store near you. Just check that the rubber seal is still intact before you buy. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Vigilant Date Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:58am Talking about degradation of plastic - the other day several rubber bands I was using to secure open food packages (the big thick red/maroon variety) had a meltdown. They weren't exposed to heat of any kind. It was weird, and bloody hard to scrape off. I've since started using plastic clamps instead. Vigilant

------------Non Dicta Sed Facta - Not Words But Action

Posted By: curious

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Date Posted: 08 April 2005 at 12:28pm

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On the subject of degradation of Plastics, rubber etc, remember that any oil based product will degrade over time some faster than others depending on the amount of chemical stabilisers that were used in their manufacture. I would recommend staying away from the use of plastics and rubber for any really long term storage of foodstuffs (years) particularly because you run the risk of contamination of your food when you need it most. Glass/ceramics with a wax sealer is a good (and ancient) approach. Curious

Posted By: Vigilant Date Posted: 08 April 2005 at 3:08pm A little more in the plastic dept. I have been purchasing clear rectangular plastic boxes with lids and labelling them with texta on the lids and sides, so that no matter which way they're stacked, I can easily see/read what is inside. This has solved the problem of miles of cables/wiring, mounds of maps and other loose piles of crap lying around. I'm starting to do the same with bulk food - pasta, rice, soup/gravy/sauce packets, dried 'surprise' peans/beans /corn, tea/coffee sachet packs, flour, sugar etc. Vigilant

------------Non Dicta Sed Facta - Not Words But Action

Posted By: Loup Date Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:02pm Rubber bands are not really appropriate for long term storage as rubber is a natural biodegradable product. With time and exposure to air the rubber 'perishes' this is exacerbated by humidity. This is when it goes hard and gets a sticky layer of goo like stuff over the cracked surface. I reckon that under good conditions the rubber bands can last up to 3 years without losing the elasticity but in less than ideal conditions its not that long, about a month in direct sunlight. (UV light is very good for degrading materials - if someone is interested in the technical/chemical process details I'll provide them) If you must use bands you can try clear silicone bands which are 'biologically inert'. However all material under elastic strain (stretched) suffers from 'creep' be it steel, rubber, plastic and even rock. This is where the material particles move internally so that eventually it has no stress in it. This means it basically goes slack. Compression seals ( eg o-rings in valves, watchbacks, etc) suffer from the same problem but over a longer period.

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Posted By: Dawn Date Posted: 08 April 2005 at 10:10pm Has any one here used the Brain Garden products? I believe you can't get a hold of them here any more. One of the products they had was a biodegradable cleaner made in Australia. You could use it to wash yourself as well as the shower and anything else you can think of. I would like to find the Ozzy (Qld I think) who invented it and buy the stuff direct from him. Anyone have contacts here? ------------create the future you want to live today, but live today like there's no future

Posted By: mrcammoman Date Posted: 09 April 2005 at 7:37am Have all of our camping gear/ bug out gear in boxes that can be easily stacked and loaded into the car in a very small amount of time.Everything that is in a box is itemised on a sheet of paper , placed in a clear plastic sleeve and stuck onto the box. Makes finding the right box to look in easy,and prevents Mrs Cammoman blowing her stack in frustration. ------------"Firearms only have two enemies - rust and politicans" author unknown

Posted By: z4zachariah Date Posted: 09 April 2005 at 9:24am Down to the little practicle things. I have some vacola bottles that are decades old, but the weakness in this system may be the rings. I could store hundreds of them, but what long term use are they if my guinea pig (edible) has a longer life span than these rings. ------------History always repeats.

Posted By: Vigilant Date Posted: 09 April 2005 at 11:16am Can vaseline or similar be used to 'lube up' stored rings, for when the older rings perish? I've often wondered. Also, I'm sure it was on this forum that someone suggested storing safety pins/tacks etc in a bottle of oil to prevent rusting. Vigilant

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------------Non Dicta Sed Facta - Not Words But Action

Posted By: Dawn Date Posted: 09 April 2005 at 1:13pm Vigilant wrote: Also, I'm sure it was on this forum that someone suggested storing safety pins/tacks etc in a bottle of oil to prevent rusting. Vigilant Oiling such things as tacks I know works as my mother used to have an old hand mincer which after use would be washed, dried and my job was to rub some cooking oil on it and them wrap it in tissue paper and put in its box for storage. The mincer (she may still have) has never rusted. So the suggestion would be to rub the item with oil or perhaps buy a cheap spray on cooking oil to use rather storing in a bottle of oil.

------------create the future you want to live today, but live today like there's no future

Posted By: Vigilant Date Posted: 09 April 2005 at 3:03pm Cheers Dawn, I hadn't thought of doing that to my other kitchen appliances. My Dad oils up all of the cast iron skillets etc after they are cleaned and before they are stored away (as do I now). Works a treat. Vigilant

------------Non Dicta Sed Facta - Not Words But Action

Posted By: Twodogs Date Posted: 09 April 2005 at 8:31pm Your postman uses rubber bands to bundle the mail. More often than not, he only uses them once. They lose elacsticity very quickly. Use a band twice and it often ends up snapping and giving your finger a sharp sting. on the plus side, the postman is a good source for large quantities of rubber bands. Most of them are only only too happy to give them away.

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If anyone coming to the July hunt wants a couple bags, let me know.

Posted By: Stormarm Date Posted: 13 April 2005 at 1:39am If you can not find away to keep fowlers rings from disintergrating try finding Mason jars, I have found these last alright. (they have rubber seal fixed into the lid.)

Posted By: Stormarm Date Posted: 13 April 2005 at 1:46am Also for oil and fuel storage I store all mine in 60 litre drums. I dont leave the taps in, I only put the taps in when I need to use them. My drums were once used to store acetone. The tap usually have a long life expectancy, usally the rubber rings on the taps will go first, but the ring on the bung of the drum will fit the tap.

Posted By: Self-Sufficient Date Posted: 13 April 2005 at 10:23am The secret to preserving rubber and plastic components is to store them in the dark, and I mean totally dark. Sunlight has wavelengths that physically attack hydrocarbon and rubber compounds. In the old days before just in time ordering, garages used to have a dark room where all the tyres were stored, they used to also store the fan belts, fuel hoses and any other products that were rubber or hydrocarbon based in the dark room.

Posted By: Vigilant Date Posted: 13 April 2005 at 10:40am Self Sufficient, That's great advice - I wasn't aware sunlight had such a devastating effect on rubber. Vigilant

------------Non Dicta Sed Facta - Not Words But Action

Posted By: Loup Date Posted: 13 April 2005 at 11:25pm Don't use vasiline to lube rubber seals. The two don't go together just like they always warn you don't use vasiline with condoms!

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The two (oil based products and natural rubber) react and the rubber is ruined.

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 13 April 2005 at 11:39pm Erm, people, haven't we gone a little off topic here?? survival, not a discussion on breaking condoms!! ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine. This was supposed to be an intro to planning your future

Posted By: Dawn Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 11:08am Can we get back to rubber storage here? As in tyres. Does this mean that tyres have a limited life if exposed to sunlight? I'm thinking here of the spare tyre on my trailer which does not have a cover on it. ------------create the future you want to live today, but live today like there's no future

Posted By: curious Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 11:41am Dawn wrote: Can we get back to rubber storage here? As in tyres. Does this mean that tyres have a limited life if exposed to sunlight? I'm thinking here of the spare tyre on my trailer which does not have a cover on it.

Yep, 'fraid so. If you want your spare to last a little longer have it covered. Curious

Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 1:07pm Dawn wrote: Can we get back to rubber storage here? As in tyres. Does this mean that tyres have a limited life if

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exposed to sunlight? I'm thinking here of the spare tyre on my trailer which does not have a cover on it. Storing Tyres Manufacturers recommend unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over 6 years old and that all tyres should be replaced 10 years from the date of their manufacture. Rubber used in tires contains oil that tends to migrate into the tires undertread/casing and evaporate into the air. As this happens, the tires compound loses oil and becomes harder. Here are some tips for storing tires that will not be used continuously. Don't store a vehicle with weight on its tires for extended periods of time. DO NOT APPLY ANY TIRE DRESSINGS. Keep the tires out of direct sunlight. Place each tire in its own large, opaque, airtight plastic bag (such as lawn and garden bags) for storing. Avoid allowing any moisture and remove as much air as practical (some drivers even use a vacuum cleaner to draw out as much as possible). Close the bag tightly and tape it shut. This places the tire in its own personal mini-atmosphere to help reduce oil evaporation. Place the tires in a cool, dry location. It is better to place tires in a dry basement than outdoors or in a hot garage or attic. Keep the tires away from sources of ozone. Electric motors that use contact brushes generate ozone. Keep your tires away from the furnace, sump pump, etc. While tires will age somewhat regardless of what precautions are taken, these procedures will help slow the process compared to not doing anything.

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

Posted By: Loup Date Posted: 14 April 2005 at 7:58pm I'll own to being a bit off topic - but I bet all of us remember about rubber seals and storing tyres now!

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Posted By: trains Date Posted: 26 April 2005 at 3:30pm We always add talcum powder to the new tubes and tyres we put on aircraft, and ive seen it done on cars as well however I never bothered on cars as they ran out pretty quickly ie 50 000ks or so. Any rubber item im keeping, I either add rubber grease to it, or store with talcum powder. If its the wrong thing to do, would be happy to hear why.

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Trains, never trust rubber Trains

------------Save the Whales........... Collect the whole set !

Posted By: Dawn Date Posted: 11 May 2005 at 10:58pm trains wrote: Any rubber item im keeping, I either add rubber grease to it, or store with talcum powder. showing my ignorance again but what is rubber grease and where do you get it? Also Trains, wouldn't rubber grease and talcum powder actually do the opposite of each other in other words one softens and moisturises and the other dries it out.?

------------create the future you want to live today, but live today like there's no future

Posted By: Self-Sufficient Date Posted: 13 May 2005 at 9:35pm trains wrote: We always add talcum powder to the new tubes and tyres we put on aircraft, and ive seen it done on cars as well however I never bothered on cars as they ran out pretty quickly ie 50 000ks or so. Any rubber item im keeping, I either add rubber grease to it, or store with talcum powder. If its the wrong thing to do, would be happy to hear why.

Trains, never trust rubber Trains Talcum powder is only placed in tyres with tubes. The talcum powder or other powders like graphite prevent the tube and tyre from vulcanizing (melting together) when the tyre becomes hot during usage. Without it the tube would be destroyed nearly everytime the wheel was dismantled, leaving rubber imperfections on the inside of the tyre. To use it on tubeless tyres is pointless as no tube is present and should not be used. Also on small bicycle tyres or similar wheels as they do not generate enough heat when in motion. Rubber grease is designed to be used on tyres only when placing a new tyre onto a rim, it acts as a lubricant to prevent damage to the tyre bead as it is run onto the rim, it also helps prevent the tyre from vulcanizing to the rim.

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Rubber greases vary in their types and uses and must be researched carefully to prevent damage to the rubber or plastic.

Posted By: Dawn Date Posted: 14 May 2005 at 8:35pm Thanks for clearing that up for me Self Sufficient. I feel like I don't much on this site but when I ask the simplest of questions I get answers from some one or other. That is really appreciated.

------------create the future you want to live today, but live today like there's no future

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 18 May 2005 at 10:57pm Hey, with over 3000 views of this thread, does this make it the most popular thread ever posted on the forum? Shucks, I'm all emotional here! Hopefully new forum members are still checking the thread for its original purpose, which was to give them a starting point if they were unsure how to actually begin preps. Reviewing the info I posted months ago, there are holes here and there, but I still feel it gives a good foundation for people on low incomes or small disposable income. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: DesertWind Date Posted: 20 May 2005 at 3:41pm Heres a recipie for you all. 3/4 dettol, 1/4 baby oil. Great bug repellant. Ask anyone who has been living up north for a while. ~DesertWind

Posted By: trains Date Posted: 04 June 2005 at 10:37pm Self-Sufficient wrote: trains wrote:

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We always add talcum powder to the new tubes and tyres we put on aircraft, and ive seen it done on cars as well however I never bothered on cars as they ran out pretty quickly ie 50 000ks or so. Any rubber item im keeping, I either add rubber grease to it, or store with talcum powder. If its the wrong thing to do, would be happy to hear why.

Trains, never trust rubber Trains Talcum powder is only placed in tyres with tubes. The talcum powder or other powders like graphite prevent the tube and tyre from vulcanizing (melting together) when the tyre becomes hot during usage. Without it the tube would be destroyed nearly everytime the wheel was dismantled, leaving rubber imperfections on the inside of the tyre. To use it on tubeless tyres is pointless as no tube is present and should not be used. Also on small bicycle tyres or similar wheels as they do not generate enough heat when in motion. Rubber grease is designed to be used on tyres only when placing a new tyre onto a rim, it acts as a lubricant to prevent damage to the tyre bead as it is run onto the rim, it also helps prevent the tyre from vulcanizing to the rim. Rubber greases vary in their types and uses and must be researched carefully to prevent damage to the rubber or plastic.

Ahh, thanks for that, I store rubber parts ie tubes for bycicles coated with talcum powder. but have never bothered using it when assembling the tube/ tyre, and what you have said makes alot of sence. The rubber grease I use for assembling purposes, ie brake calipers/ master cylds, pump cups etc, and for servicing rubber parts that have become dry, and require lubricant, altho ive never used it for tyres, I just used plain old dish washing detergent for fitting tyres to rims, it worked well, and the tyres didnt slip on the rim. Go to repco or your local auto shop, they will have rubber grease in tube or tub form. Sorry for the late post, had not viewed this one in some time. Trains

------------Save the Whales........... Collect the whole set !

Posted By: NugentR Date Posted: 06 July 2005 at 11:24am Where can i get Greymans Prep list in a doc form? -------------

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:39pm

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Someone was supposed to have done it up as a pdf document or something. Don't know where they've put it though. Perhaps ask Sparhawk if he has it? The only alternative I can think of is to cut and paste the relevant info. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: NugentR Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:55pm Thats what ive started doing ------------good info thanks.

Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 8:06am I think it is around somewhere . . . need to refresh my memory . . . if not I can turn it into a PDF. John M

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

Posted By: Talon Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 5:30pm Would be great if you can find the PDF file -------------

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 23 July 2005 at 9:31pm An extension to the thread... For those on tight budgets, make your way to factory sales. Today I went to the SPC/Ardmona factory near Shepparton and spent $25. Here is a list of what I got for that price: 2kg of sugar; 24 cans of 'spaggosaurus' spaghetti (good for kids); 12 cans of vegetable soup; 24 small tubs of peaches in mango puree;

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500g of fruit bars; 6-pack of fruit drinks; 1 x jar of mustard pickle relish; 1 x jar of pepper and tomato simmer sauce; 1 x tub of apricot halves; half a litre of tomato sauce; 4 x jars of infant food; 1 x packet of rice crackers; and (thrown in for free) 2 x packets of 'Smints'

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The 'spaggosaurus' was a steal at $2.50 for the entire carton. That's basically 10cents a can! Using the wheat I got for free the other week, we 'could' live on this for a week with the addition of fresh vegies from the garden. Might be a little bland, but then, it isn't the only food I have stockpiled by a long shot. If you live an hour or two from Shepparton and you haven't visited the SPC factory sales, do yourself a favour and get there! ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Vombat Date Posted: 24 July 2005 at 9:18am Greyman how often do they do the factory sales at SPC? Are they usually held on a Saturday? Was thinking it may be a good waypoint on the combined Vic/NSW meet weekend if a sale is on. ------------All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)

Posted By: Lert Date Posted: 24 July 2005 at 7:44pm I've cut and pasted it into a Rich Text File (*.rtf). If anyone wants it, either as an rtf or a pdf, pm me. Is there a file transfer mechanism on this forum, or is email the usual way? ------------Be ALERT! Your country needs LERTS!

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 24 July 2005 at 9:35pm Vombat, they have cheap stuff all the time. They have a post-stocktake sale on now, but whenever I go up there they seem to have good prices on a variety of bulk goods. You can usually pick up a carton of tinned tomatoes or fruit for about $6 for example. That's cheaper than the supermarkets by about 30% at least, maybe even 50%. If MrCammoman doesn't mind diverting there and has the room, why not? -------------

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No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 11:15pm Just doubling up here for those going to the Vic/NSW border meet. Have a look at that thread to see a sample list of the kinds of stuff they sell. I'm willing to do a pick up order for anyone going to the meet. Let me know how much you're willing to spend, the kind of stuff you'd like and I'll see what I can do. (Keep in mind I won't be doing big $$$ deals here. If you're willing to spend maybe $50-100, that should be okay provided only a few people show interest. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: something awful Date Posted: 15 August 2005 at 9:33am Hi all Im new to the forums here, I have been looking for info as presented in this list, as a lot of survivalist info seems more orientated for the US, where I was looking for something more Australian. As for water, what do people think about some sort of desalinisation equipment, either a simple still or more expensive machinery, i live on the east coast and water is getting a bit scarce at the moment, even though it still flows out of the tap, i can't help but think what would happen if I we were living in a post shtf world under the same draught conditions.

Posted By: Zach Date Posted: 15 August 2005 at 11:55am After skimming this long thread, I'm going to toss out some random comments based on my own experience. Virtually every book I've ever seen recommend storing huge stocks of matches, and they always specify the "strike anywhere" types. I've learned the hard way that the latter part of this advice is nonsense. It hardly matters what I try, these types fail. Last winter I opened a quart jar of some I'd vacuum packed, and they wouldn't strike! Electronic butane lighters are very cheap, and even cheaper are "bricks" of paper book matches. Yes, the latter is worthless in the wilderness, but few of us will end up there, no matter what. If packed in a dry box and kept out of bake-oven attics, the book matches ought to last for decades. My oldest ones are just fine. Rice has been my most successful grain so far. The inexpensive types around here are barely dry, so I finish it in a low oven for a few hours. This also kills any lurking insect eggs. US suppliers sell thin square 5 gallon cans. I believe these are the "flimsies" the Brits tried to use in WW2 to haul gasoline. Main problem besides cost: rust. New drywall buckets with tight lids will keep rice out of most trouble. No good against rats, though. Batteries: I keep mine as cool as possible, and am accumulating stocks of rechargables. In addition to the standard stuff, I have a self-contained solar recharger. I'm standardizing on LED lights. Candles are expensive and more than a little dangerous. I'm not tossing my old stocks, but neither am I buying more. Propane lamps are noisy and expensive. Ditto for the canisters of fuel. Kerosene is smelly and the combination of an open flame and a quart of liquid fuel is another recipe for disaster. My kerosene mantle lamps are silent, but very hot and very expensive to keep going. The ones I have will be the

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end of that. Speaking of fire hazards, I have two large dry powder fire extinguishers. I ought to have more, but they're getting expensive. The point about a stock of dedicated batteries for the smoke alarms is well taken. I'd suggest putting together a small "brick" of 9v cells and storing them in a ziplock in the freezer. I stock quite a few cheap sleeping bags. The idea is that if there is either no fuel or rationed, or I can no longer afford much of it, I can sleep on a normal bed with a bit of extra cover on top of the bags. Several years ago we had -20F for a full week with no power in an all-electric house, and that left marks! I doubt if it's possible to overstock on toilet paper, excepting of course for the incredible amount of space it takes. A project (when I get around to it) is to make a small "baler". Most of the stuff will compress to a third of it's volume, and a plastic wrap will hold it in that state. Ditto for paper towels. Spices: it's true nobody likes tasteless stuff. Restaurant supply stores here sell huge bottles of these for 1/3 to 1/10 the cost of tiny supermarket cans. Tools: you'll want plenty and most ought to be of top quality. Around here auction sales often have good prices. Acquiring a drawknife for making new handles ought to be considered. A lot of top grade files to sharpen the hoes and shovels and axes could be stored in a can of new motor oil. Plastic sheeting. You'll want a lot, and of a heavy thickness. A high quality hand stapler with plenty of THAT BRAND's staples. Generics don't always fit. Besides normal stuff, you might need the plastic for replacing shot out windows at home, or fixing up a ramshackle hovel at more distant points. Liquid soap. Get lots. I watch for "loss leader" sales on diswashing detergent. I dump the small bottles into new 5 gallon gas cans, and tie an empty bottle to the handle so there is no mistaking what's in that can. This stuff can also be used for washing clothes and to shampoo my very oily hair. :) Watch for sales of bar soap; you'll want a few cases. If the stuff hits the fan, I expect no early access to any fat or lye to make my own. It has been many years since I saw cans of lye for sale, and I haven't seen a live hog for years! Fruit trees - even wormy fruit can make vinegar. Vinegar you'll need in quantity for pickling, etc. With clean fruit you could make wine and/or brandy. :) Plastic containers: I try to stay away from these unless they are VERY thick. Stuff just doesn't hold up for me. Glass can break, but that's a risk I'll accept. My experience with rubber is that if it's stored in airtight containers, it'll keep well. If not, it "rots" rather quickly. Extra stocks of sugar could be important. The calories are a no brainer, but you need it (or hard to find glucose) for rehydration mixes. A mix of sugar and butter make a fine expedient wound treatment. Honey works too, but costs lots more. In WW2 it (and things like coffee) were severely rationed in the US.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 15 August 2005 at 12:52pm Thanks for sharing your information Zach. And welcome to you 'something aweful'. The info you've supplied, Zach, might help people make up their minds when it comes to deciding what form of backup lighting to have when power is gone, and possibly gone for good. Keep in mind that my aim when first writing this was to keep it affordable. Not everyone could go out and afford some of the more expensive items that

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I'd like to have, such as generator and dedicated diesel tanks for fuel supply. (Me included! advocated big expenditure though.

) Not that you've

Incidentally, just another quick little tip that may or may not have been mentioned elsewhere, when buying food from supermarkets, etc, always rummage through to find the one with the most distant used by or best before date. You'd be surprised at the difference in some products, many months in some cases! That's longer that you can keep it before using it. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Zach Date Posted: 16 August 2005 at 12:11pm Using a flat plate solar evaporation unit would be cheaper, I think. Typing in a keyphrase "solar water distiller" has this entry at the top of 1260 results. www.i4at.org/surv/sstill.htm If you have a wood stove and plenty of wood, an even simpler and cheaper method is to connect a flexible hose to the lid of a large kettle. Run that line to a "tee" silver-soldered to the side of a long (clean!) vertical metal pipe clamped to a wall. A two to four inch copper pipe would be best, although a clean iron one ought to work fine. Steam runs through the hose, hits the cooler pipe, condenses, then drips into a bucket or other vessel underneath the open end. If I were doing this, I think I'd cap tthe top end with a fine screen to keep out "critters" of all sizes. Especially if it was mounted on an outside wall opposite the sun. (I was about to type "north" before I realized the situation varies a bit between the two hemispheres :D ... )

Posted By: Covert_Ops Date Posted: 24 August 2005 at 11:44am Hello Survivalists, I have been watching and reading lots of posts for the last month or so, and have decided it is time to come out of the shadows and say hello ... This place is a mecca for information and i've learnt so much already I feel right at home here. While we are touching on the subject of Solar panels, I know there is a lot of info out there, but can anyone quote the best place to buy from or the best particular solar units to purchase?

------------Hannibal ad portas

Posted By: seano Date Posted: 24 August 2005 at 2:48pm Welcome, C_O - as you're already aware, you've come to the right place.

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For solar panels, price lists (including shipping around Aust), heaps of relevant information and even courses, you can't go past these guys - http://www.rpc.com.au/ - http://www.rpc.com.au/ - Rainbow Power Company. They've been around for ages too - my in-laws bought their first panels from them 20 years ago.

------------Shallow men believe in luck. Strong men believe in cause and effect.

Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 5:29pm CO also check what grants are going in your state to subsidise the equipment if you are going for a full system. John M

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 9:18pm Welcome to the forum Covert_Ops. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Guests Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 9:23pm Welcome C_O! Be sure to check out EBay too... there's always good bargains going for Solar Panels: http://search.ebay.com.au/Solar-Panels_W0QQfromZR40 - http://search.ebay.com.au/SolarPanels_W0QQfromZR40

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Posted By: Gcs15 Date Posted: 04 October 2005 at 9:35pm

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http://www.energex.com.au/environment/solar_solutio ;ns/solar_solutions_solar_pv_residential.html - Energex if you're in Qld Might be worth a go

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Posted By: Ferret Date Posted: 27 October 2005 at 4:09pm Cool forum, cooler thread. I loved reading this, and was thinking it's a pity it's not a "sticky" as it is really a great place to start. Oh, well, here's my contrubution to keeping it on the front page.... How to get started, and do I have enough time, is like asking how long is a piece of string. Getting the mind into gear seems to be the biggest hurdle in survival of any type, and in stable situations, keeping plans in action after the initial enthusiasm seems to be a big difficulty, as complacency has a tendency to sneak up on people. Bugger. Have to go get started... On something. Ferret

Posted By: Albert Date Posted: 05 January 2006 at 11:47pm Very good post, just would like to add how important and easy it is to rotate your survival rations . After each shopping trip I remove all the items that are in our survival store and write the date on the can or package then take all the "new" food down stairs to our survival lockers ( afew large locker I got form work ) I then stock the lockers with the new food and remove the same amount of food with the oldest date for our consumption. It is a simple and quick process that ensures my family has a fresh stock of food when we need it.

Posted By: Ferret Date Posted: 06 January 2006 at 12:28am Keep it simple, stupid... Excellent idea. Such a simple thing to do, and yet it maked everything so much easier to accomplish. Cool, thanks! Ferret

------------Between a rock and a hard place.

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 06 January 2006 at 12:35am Similar to what we do at our place Albert. We have a seperate small building for survival supplies which my family fondly refers to as the 'corner store'. Each week when we go shopping we add a few items to the corner store. (Today it was simply a can of insect spray, a roll of electrical tape and 2 kilograms of sugar.) All of our stuff is labelled with the date we bought it. When we use something from the household cupboard we add it to the shopping list for the next week's shopping, buy it, label it, place it at the back of the relevent section on the shelves in the 'corner store' and bring the oldest item into the house to replace what we used. Fairly easy to mange, though an occasional item will be forgotten about past its best before date. We still eat it anyway and have had no ill effects. Thanks for your input to this topic. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Windy Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 1:53pm grey, what sort of building is your 'corner store'? did you make it of a particular material to provide a less volitile temp range for storage of goods?

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 17 January 2006 at 12:11am It is a brick room already at the place when we moved in. The roof is insulated. It does not get the morning sun at all and only cops a few hours of sun from about 11am-3.30pm roughly. It stays much cooler inside than out on hot days, though does trap some heat if we get a few hot days strung together. I've blocked out the westerly facing window with cardboard to reduce heat which works quite well. Before doing that the heat really pumped in to the room, you could feel the heat entering through that window. We've had food stored in there for just over two years and have lost nothing at all with really what I'd say is minimum preserving. Canned goods stacked on shelves. Wheat, rice, barley, split yellow peas, pasta, salt, sugar etc in vermin-proof and light-proof metal or plastic trunks/drums. All kept pretty much in darkness unless I'm putting something in or taking something out. It's nice and dry in there and our humidity level is pretty low most of the time. The oldest cans (some 2003-early 2004 remember we rotate our goods so nothing in here is too old) have a few specks of rust on the lids, barely notice it. My army ration packs are in a separate location in light and rodent-proof plastic trunks. The oldest of these is from about 1998 and I have enough of these for the family to live on for a couple of months supplemented with fresh vegetables from the garden. (I have 5 separate plots, four of which are reasonably small - ie in one I only have two rows of silverbeet and a row of coriander, in another I have two rows of cherry tomatoes and a row of basil, the next largest has pumpkins, rock melon, a row of tomatoes, two rows of lettuce and a little row of cabbages. The fourth one has pumpkins, carrots, water melon, cabbages, peas, cherry tomatoes and capsicum. The biggest plot has onions, carrots, cauliflower, leeks, capsicum, broccoli, pumpkins, beetroot, tomatoes, beans, silverbeet and cabbages. Hopefully I haven't forgotten anything.) ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: island Date Posted: 17 January 2006 at 10:03am

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have you thought about planting a tree near the storage area to reduce the heat during the middle of the day? i have sunlight affecting my storage in the afternoon so i've bunged in three trees to keep the area shaded. -------------

smoking mirrors.blogspot

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 17 January 2006 at 10:29pm I've actually been toying with the idea of making a small shade house off the western side using shade cloth (kindly supplied to me by Zulu) to reduce heat even further. But since we will be moving from this place in 11 months I'm not sure I'll bother. The food in there has lasted well so far... ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Twodogs Date Posted: 18 January 2006 at 6:50am I have 4 twenty litre plastic drums full of either rice or pasta, which I keep under the house (it's a split level place on a hill). Keeps a lot cooler than the house proper and is quite dark. We have the same system as you, greyman, buying several items each fortnightly shop day. I try to limit it to $10 each time, to keep the wife happy, but she has realised the convenience of being able to pop downstairs if she runs out of anything, and is becoming much more accepting (perhaps even supportive) of my 'strange' ideas. Every now and again if I have some spare money I will get some extra for the store cupboard (bought 5 large tins of tuna the other day with my overtime meal allowance). As always, I follow the rule "store what you eat, eat what you store". ------------Accuracy International - Helping Muslims meet Allah Happiness is watching the third world starve to death!

Posted By: southerncross Date Posted: 19 February 2006 at 2:20am Gidday All No Potatoes growing greyman? -------------

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 19 February 2006 at 6:51pm Not at the moment. I've grown them before, but they take up a lot of room. I find them easy to grow, just

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somewhat limited for space in my present location. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

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Posted By: island Date Posted: 20 February 2006 at 9:03am a good wheelbarrow full of spuds can be grown inside a stack of tyres. keep building the stack height with good compost and adding more tyres as the tops push through. doesn't take up much room. -------------

smoking mirrors.blogspot

Posted By: southerncross Date Posted: 21 February 2006 at 2:09am Thats one my Grandfather and great Uncles used to use way back when , also used the stacks (high ones) for Zucini and Curcubits as well, had completley slipped my mind until I read your post island. Thanks for the Bump -------------

Posted By: Maree Date Posted: 21 March 2006 at 2:04pm I love this thread. Shars

------------Most powerful is he who has himself in his own power. Seneca Roman dramatist, philosopher, & politician (5 BC - 65 AD)

Posted By: DesertWind Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 12:17am About firefighting.. Sometimes its completely impractical to use fire extinguishers. There are some that eat wiring and plastics for example.

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Might want to keep a 6 pack of warm beer around. Give it a shake and crack the top slightly, the foam might smell a bit, but it puts the fire out. ~DesertWind (Good to trade later on if you dont drink beer)

Posted By: ipc59 Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 9:53am You are right about fire extinguishers. Most are unsutiable for a confined space, replacing th oxygen. If you need to use one you also need to ventilate (been a firie for 20 years)...water will put out most things used correctly but it also produces steam...same problem. Fire blankets are the best passive means of extinguishment.

Posted By: tracker Date Posted: 25 September 2006 at 8:38pm Real good info most of these threads. My spin on knives from and survival gear have come from ex trackers and spec ops trainers "Tully" far north Queensland. Use of a machette is great, especially if you have the back edge made into a saw tooth. Most would be familiar with the green plastic water bottles the army use.They can accomodate a steel kidney shaped cup which fits over the bottom of the water bottle. These can be purchased at disposal stores. These are also great for retro fitting into a muti purpose tool. This came from our friendly "chicken stranglers" or sas staff. The hinge pin which holds the handle to the steel cup can be removed and replaced with a metal flint for fire starting. The handle is essentialy split down the middle to reduce overall weight.This can be fashioned into two individual fishing barbs. The outside edges of this handle can be made razor sharp and then wrapped with pvc tape to prevent cuts to the hand. The crowning glory for more industrious survivalists is to fashion a thin steel lid to cover the cup and secure it with mini clamps either side. Install a grease nipple to this lids centre. If you attach a small length of surgical tubing to this nipple, you can now heat suspect water in a pressurised environment. Steam travels through the tubing, condenses and runs into another vessel or cup for drinking, purified. It was always impressed upon us to minimise any weight we carried for jungle warfare, therefore everything we carried had at least a twofold purpose. Good thinking for increasing the bang for your buck. Hope this gives someone a heads up /help. I would like to post a diagram of these items for anyones reference. Is this possible. Feedback welcomed.

------------cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war,happiness is a head shot at 800 metres.

Posted By: rumjungle Date Posted: 25 September 2006 at 10:15pm Thanks Tracker, great info, now you've got me thinking........ ------------No foe shall gather our harvest or sit on our stockyard rail........Dame Mary Gilmore 1940

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Posted By: island Date Posted: 26 September 2006 at 8:25am

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it wouldn't hurt to have a close look at that grease nipple when installed to ensure that it's not blocked by anything, a brake bleeder would do a similar job. -------------

smoking mirrors.blogspot

Posted By: peter14 Date Posted: 12 October 2006 at 5:56pm as for talcum powder on rubber,when I was soldiering we used to store our inflatable boats,wetsuits,fins etc etc in talc. ------------Alas,Babylon "To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk." - Thomas Edison

Posted By: Seryph Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 10:39pm >You are right about fire extinguishers. Most are unsutiable for a >confined space, replacing th oxygen. If you need to use one you >also need to ventilate (been a firie for 20 years)...water will put out >most things used correctly but it also produces steam...same >problem. Fire blankets are the best passive means of extinguishment. ipc59, sorry, I may have jumped in mid thread, yet I think that the above advise is incorrect. Sure, CO2 fire extinguishers would fill a confined space with CO2 (thus reducing the Oxygen), yet there are better and safer options then "water". CO2 is possibly the best option (due to the wide range of fires it can extinguish) yet Powder extinguishers can be good... especially if they have been rated against multiple fire sources. Powder extinguishers are good for putting out small fires... although everything will be coated in a talc like powder. Fire blankets are only good for extremely localised fires (which is why they are usually placed in kitchens... to put out saucepan fires).

Posted By: MillyWylde Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 2:04pm I've just finished reading the entire thread - it can be overwhelming wondering where to start, especially if you have already done all this and then 'gave up' and need to start again. Some wonderful information esp. (as i live on the coast) - the water distillers - water is a primary essential and you need a lot to cook all that rice and pasta!; also the tyre stack for potatoes. Info on rubber was good. I made some pyramid shaped trellises for tomatoes and held the bamboo stakes together with rubber bands. Went away for two weeks, came back and all the rubber bands broken. In those two weeks there had only been 4 days of sun.

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I've taken your advice re: fire extinguishers on board Seryph, but still would like a fire blanket. Do you know where i can buy them?

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Posted By: alpha Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 8:56am fire blankets can be picked up at most places that sell powder extinguishers. Or online http://www.firstaid.com.au/catalogue/category5856/category58 58 - http://www.firstaid.com.au/catalogue /category5856/category58 58 http://search.ebay.com.au/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2 F%2Fcgi.ebay.com.au%2Fws%2F&fkr=1& from=R8&satitle=fire+blank et&category0= - http://search.ebay.com.au/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2 F%2Fcgi.ebay.com.au%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=fire+blank et&category0= http://www.firequip.com.au/?main=%2FCatalogue%2F1B29F50A-8FD 5-4745-AEB5-09EA371445AE %2F%3Fgclid%3DCIjMnMLr1okCFQ_rYAodfE RA3Q - http://www.firequip.com.au /?main=%2FCatalogue%2F1B29F50A-8FD 5-4745-AEB5-09EA371445AE %2F%3Fgclid%3DCIjMnMLr1okCFQ_rYAodfE RA3Q ------------"Let us cross the river, and rest under the shade of the trees" Gen TJ Jackson, May 10 1863.

Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 9:12am Also try Bunnings for the Fire Blankets. John M

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 2:30pm Talking of fire blankets, my wife was heating oil for a stir fry on the gas stove a couple nights ago. It got too hot and the oil caught on fire. I came to the rescue with the fire blanket we keep near the stove. It would have been hard to put out without it. -------------

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No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

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Posted By: Bryan.H Date Posted: 24 February 2007 at 3:50pm I'm not sure if "How do i get started" is the right thread for this suggestion, but here goes! One of the ideas that keeps cropping up is the idea of "community" in the post sh*t -hits-the-fan climate. I found one good way to make contact with likeminded folk was by a site called http://www.freecycle.org www.freecycle.org , It's probably been mentioned a hundred or so times, but basically, it's a system of giving away unwanted goods, anything really, and recieving others unwanted goods, in your own locality. It ends up being a bit of a barter system..sort of, and it connects people together. Especially for suburban folk behind their 6 foot high fences, if you want to get in touch or connected with like minded people in your community, and work towards building a network of like minded folk for mutual support (I'm talking everything from bartering unwanted items, to swapping veggies or eggs etc), it's a good way to start. Also great to acquire cheap (free!) building materials etc. I thought it was worth a mention.

Posted By: MillyWylde Date Posted: 24 February 2007 at 7:08pm Thanks Bryan.H, Good link

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Posted By: blown Date Posted: 04 May 2007 at 11:31pm Good list but why so much olive oil? Me and the missus were discussing it today over lunch (I cut and pasted it into word document). We had a laugh over some stuff because neither of us like some stuff (creamed rice?) so that would get scratched off, and the first lot of toilet paper (6 rolls) wasn't enough (my wife goes "What do we do after the fourth day?) but it something to look at and think about. It's alot of stuff though, you're gonna need a fairly big space just to store some of this stuff.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 05 May 2007 at 12:06am 6 rolls of dunny paper in 4 days??? What is she doing, eating it?

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------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: cedarmoth Date Posted: 05 May 2007 at 3:05pm Thanks for that reminder of freecycle.org Bryan, i've just joined up. Yep this is a great thread. When i'm finally online at home hopefully i too will have time to read all of it instead of little bits at a time Julie

Posted By: Mute Date Posted: 11 May 2007 at 2:31am Article on the web somewhere. Has anyone seen an article which deals with the psychological aspects of TSHTF? Caligula made a point earlier in this thread about living off a food stockpile in an urban environment - this was covered in said seen but lost article... It went into depth the measures and, perhaps cruelty you might have to exercise in your decisions of what you do when you have food and no one else does - or what and how you cook to eat ... to not attract attention when there is no power and the smell of cooked food will travel (given you will appear healthy while others are starving).

Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 11 May 2007 at 7:34am Mute: Here's one thread that may help. There is another thread and an article I will try to find later. http://www.aussurvivalist.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2603 &KW=disaster+recovery+mental http://www.aussurvivalist.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2603 &KW=disaster+recovery+mental John M

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

Posted By: Mute Date Posted: 11 May 2007 at 8:02am

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John M, Thank you, its along the lines of what I am talking about. Its the part of preparedness rarely discussed, the intangible actually effects of trouble.

Posted By: Stealth Date Posted: 22 May 2007 at 11:11pm hi all, i would inclued drill bits for the hand drill on the prep lists, and a magnifing glass, good fire starter maybe a magnesium strike lighter too cheers

------------People dont plan to fail, they fail to plan

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 24 May 2007 at 11:56pm Thanks for your thoughts Stealth. When I wrote up the list I made the assumption that most people would have an electric drill (with drill bits) kicking around in the shed. The hand drill was added to the preps list incase there is no power and you need to still work using the existing drill bits. Magnesium strikers and magnifying glass would both be nice-to-haves. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Hippy Date Posted: 25 May 2007 at 8:58am Sorry a bit late, but just an idea. We do the shopping rotation too... sort of... but found some tins rust out within a few years, while others from 1999 were still OK. Had a run of peaches that let go in little pin size rust holes near the base. But typically it was the top side that got rusty.

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Solution - a cheap tin of spray-on cooking oil. Give the top of tins a quick mist (after texta the date on) and they are fine 4 years later. The oil goes slightly sticky and the texta weaps a bit, but is no problem and better than a rusty can.

------------GG&G - Guns, Gold and Groceries!

Posted By: l33thun3 Date Posted: 30 June 2007 at 11:16pm Thanks for the lists greyman. I've converted it a word document and added tick boxes next to each and printed it out for me and my family (of whom I've convinced it would be wise to atleast have the first two sections stored)in total 4 households. We've prepared an evacuation plan, have agreed on meeting locations and where to leave messages on our status should we get seperated or have to split up. I have only a few suggestions to add: 1 - a billycan &/or camp kettle. Most homes don't have one and while water can be boiled in pots and pans. A camp kettle will go along way to alliveating the stress & fear for most. A bit of normalcy in a wierd situation if you will. It will help to get your family to use it every now and then so that it becomes more familiar too. They can be found most anyplace infact I found one in woolies (tho i bought mine complete with camping frypans and plates etc at a surplus store) and are relatively cheap. 2 - I don't know where you got the idea that a family that doesn't have alot of cash left over after the essentials can afford what you've reccommended each fortnight. From my encounters each fortnights is more like a month. Mind - some fortnights can be just squeezed. Specials help - but aren''t always on when u need them. 3 - There was no mention of bug out bags. Perhaps between the first and second list should be a "bug out bag list". It's all well and good to have all these things stored at home - but it's not going to help at all if there is a flood and we have to abandon the place! A simple backpack with a change of clothes (3 sets of underwear and socks) and 3 days of home made MREs can make an amazing difference. Oh and that leads me to... 4 - Home made MRE's. Most would agree that MRE's are expensive and fairly tasteless. Making your own from home can be fairly simple and can be simply lifesaving if your car breaks down and your toddler starts demanding "num nums". Stored properly along with your spare tyre, drinking water, tools and a simple "in car activity", should be a couple of MRE's. The best thing about home made MRE's is that they can be made to suit individual tastes. For example a 2 year old is not likely going to drink coffee (for that matter neither will some adults) - but a milo sachet will be most welcome and full of wonderful calories. There are alot of sites out there that have suggestions on how and what to pack your home madre MRE's with and most can end up being cheaper, lighter and smaller than traditional MRE's. That being said. I still think that this thread is a fabulous idea and greysmans reccommendations are a fantastic jumping of point. See you on the other side. Good luck.

------------Being prepared is not being negative - its allowing our subconcious to rest free from worries about the future. You

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have a supperannuation fund don't you?

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Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 06 July 2007 at 10:16pm Thanks for your comments l33thun3. In my car and my wife's car we have army ration packs and a couple litres of water, along with a blanket and first aid kit for the exact reason you mentioned above. The lists are only a guide and people are strongly encouraged to add to them to suit their own family needs. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: BOHICA6 Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:46pm

Love this topic Allow a Yank to contribute After Katrina a friend recommended two books to me, dont know if you can get them but "Basic Prepardness" from http://www.thesurvivalcenter.com - www.thesurvivalcenter.com This book is like Prepairdness 101 "No Such Thing As Doomsday" from http://www.yellowrivertraiding.com - www.yellowrivertraiding.com

Posted By: brolga Date Posted: 09 October 2007 at 9:41am This is a truly excellent thread. Simple, down to earth and easy to understand. Thanks guys.

------------Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Unknown

Posted By: Zalalzabob Date Posted: 20 October 2007 at 12:01pm

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I just raid the local store for my supplies and disapear into the desert haha joking food very nice lol....

... Very good info, I like caned

------------"Its time to Rape, Pillage and Plunder the Village." http://www.newmastersgallery.com/ArtistsT/TsengNew-Rework-Mo ngolian%20Warrior%20Shooting-16x20.jpg

Posted By: Fussy Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 1:36am I am new to this site and have just started prepairing. As i live in a rual place i already have a full rain water tank and bore water, large water cooler for rain water inside, septic tank, wood bbq and very large supply of fire wood. I already have some tin/packet food but i am looking at increasing that on a weekly basis. I have 2 tents, swag and some camping gear (looking at increasing that). I have just finished doing up a bob. Where i live is very close (walking distance) to good fishing/crabing/prawns area and also alot of bush land surrounds my very small town with lots of wildlife if it was needed. I also own 3 soon to be 4 horses (as one is pregant) so if fuel disappears i do have transport for around the area. plus there accessorys (5 bridles, 3 sadles, 4 sadle rugs, ect). I am a single mum so all this concerns me as i want myself and my son to be as safe as possible, with the nessary items to handle everything. I am also looking into getting a gun licence and gun. I have always had an interst in hunting and have gone out shooting with friends and enjoyed it. I look forward to getting to know you all

Posted By: Fussy Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 1:53am Oh i also forgot to add to my list, i have a good first aid kit, pain meds, prescription meds, first aid books, bush tucker books and a large selection of knives (i collect them as a hobbie) and i have done a good self defense corse... oh and i have 3 cars (2 currently running and one soon to be running again one of the running ones is my 4wd). Plenty of tools, fencing wire, fruit trees growing already and a good guard dog (bull arab cross great dane)

Posted By: sparhawk5 Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 8:35am Fussy, welcome. John M

------------Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD) Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming (1900 - 1993)

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Posted By: Maree Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 8:58am

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Welcome Fussy. With the fruit trees a Vacola outfit would be handy. These outfits pop up from time to time at garage sales and op shops. Maree

------------Most powerful is he who has himself in his own power. Seneca Roman dramatist, philosopher, & politician (5 BC - 65 AD)

Posted By: Cheeser Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 12:53pm And a dehydrator as well. Welcome aboard Fussy

Posted By: wombat Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 7:38pm Welcome Fussy You have come to the right place to learn As for just starting to prepare... you have a better start than most of us Enjoy your time here Brett

Posted By: Fussy Date Posted: 07 November 2007 at 11:23pm Thank you for your kind welcomes. I am already learning so much from this site and i am suprised by how closed my eyes were... big eye opener for me which is good. :) thanks again

Posted By: fatti Date Posted: 08 November 2007 at 1:07pm Fussy wrote: (bull arab cross great dane) Dont worry about the 4wd. Stick a saddle on that.

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Posted By: Fussy Date Posted: 09 November 2007 at 12:14am He is only 11 months old and is still growing, so far he is the bull arab height but hasnt grown into his feet yet so i am not sure how much bigger he is going to get. He is a rescue case from rspca and doesnt like any strangers.

Posted By: fatti Date Posted: 09 November 2007 at 3:12pm Fussy wrote: doesnt like any strangers. Thats ok, either do I. I like him already.

Posted By: DesertWind Date Posted: 09 November 2007 at 6:24pm Fussy wrote: He is a rescue case from rspca and doesnt like any strangers.

You might want to watch him. Many people think their dogs are being protective for one reason or another when it is truly fear based aggression. There is a simple test. Tie the dog up in a relatively unfamiliar area, leave it alone for a good 15 mins where it cant see you. Have someone the dog has never met (with you hidden and watching) creep around suspiciously within the dogs field of vision, creeping back and forth and getting closer to the dog (make sure the dog is tethered tightly!). The dog will either stand its ground and bark, not care, or back away as much as it can and genuinely appear petrified, it may bark or act in a variety of ways. I would get the owner up to the dog pretty quickly to calm the dog down. It goes without saying that the dog, if scared, is quite dangerous at this time and only a trusted person should approach the dog.

Posted By: Windy Date Posted: 09 November 2007 at 6:28pm You could add a solar cooker to your list of preps. I've tried the Vacola preserving kits and I much prefer living off the freshstuff.

Posted By: Fussy Date Posted: 09 November 2007 at 10:04pm

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I had him chained on my back verandah and a friend went around the back (i was out of site) and as soon as my dog seen him he went off barking and growling and stood his ground (went to the end of his chain). His tail was not down either, he showed no fear to the stranger. Once someone has been introduced to him a few times, he is fine with them as long as they dont try to hurt me or my son. He is also great with me and my son, very relaxed around us and shows no aggression at all and is not tense in anyway around us.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 13 November 2007 at 3:22am Even though I started this thread a couple years ago and some info may not be 100% up-to-date, I'm glad that people are still finding it to be a good starting point on the road to self-sufficiency/survivalism. Welcome to all our new forum members, and please add any good suggestions. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: Lucid Date Posted: 13 November 2007 at 12:03pm I used to read power meters in a rough gold mining town. Even when there were 2 rottys and a 10 foot cyclone fence I got my reading. It's just a matter of 2 stepladders to get over the fence and a little dog psychology. Dogs are so easy to make friends with. That's why I have no respect for them as a guard by themselves. If there's an owner there to tell them who to bite then they are more of a problem unless you have no compunction not to thump them. ------------"Someone has to starve in the collapse, make sure it isnt you." Boxcutter 2010

Posted By: Spoon Date Posted: 13 November 2007 at 1:33pm Lucid wrote: I used to read power meters Just the man, is it illegal to padlock your meter box even if you leave instructions to enable the meter man to gain access?? Im not sure if your dog physcology would work on my 3 dogs, my friends have to push their food bowls to them with long sticks whenever we're away but when we're at home and my mates are around my dogs act like little sooks??

------------"Human beings cannot tolerate much reality." - Carl Jung

Posted By: DesertWind

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Date Posted: 13 November 2007 at 1:36pm

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Most guard dogs are useless. If they are genuinely aggressive they can usually be subdued by a handful of sausages, or if they want to eat them then bite you, toss some mincemeat around. They will spend their time searching for more meat. Any dog wearing the collar below should be treated like a rusty loaded gun. They are registered as a dangerous dog, be it for attacking someone or because they are trained to attack, you wouldnt know.. Not worth finding out the hard way.

Posted By: Spoon Date Posted: 13 November 2007 at 2:27pm Another thing about other peoples dogs, dont trust'em, my 'mates' rotty went for my throat last year, one of its bottom k9s punctured my lower jaw as it lunged towards me while on its chain, blood pissed down my neck, it was like someone kneeing me under the chin, I walked past its kennel going for a leak in the bush, i was very drunk at the time. They buy calf collars for it because normal dog collars only last a few weeks .

I didnt make a big deal about it at the time, im just afraid someones kid may be next thats now got me worried. Interesting fact about the dangerous dog collars DW, never knew it.

------------"Human beings cannot tolerate much reality." - Carl Jung

Posted By: Lucid Date Posted: 13 November 2007 at 2:42pm Spoon, To lock your meterbox it will first need a window in it so's the meter can be read without opening it and also it'll need to be fitted with a lock from a locksmith that's keyed to suit the standard set of keys that the meter reader's carry.

------------"Someone has to starve in the collapse, make sure it isnt you." Boxcutter 2010

Posted By: Spoon Date Posted: 13 November 2007 at 3:37pm

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Thanks for that Lucy ------------"Human beings cannot tolerate much reality." - Carl Jung

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Posted By: Johnny66 Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 8:23pm Hi everyone, This is my first post after stumbling upon the Forum after reading some pseudo-'Survivalist' books. As many have stated, some of the material is so overwhelming (and, worse, encourages easy purchase of 'Quick Fix' survival items rather than measured practical consideration) that one can quickly become disheartened. This thread is a fantastic introductory guide for the beginner - with a much needed Australian flavour! Greyman many, many thanks for the information, lists and tips contained herein, and to all others who contributed. I now feel I have a solid place to start, and can begin immediately to make even the smallest of differences to my state of 'readiness'. Again, many thanks.

Posted By: Lucid Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 9:39pm Welcome Johnny66, Glad we can help, Plenty to read here. Don't miss Legion's Notebook in Tactics.

------------"Someone has to starve in the collapse, make sure it isnt you." Boxcutter 2010

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 9:41pm Johnny66, it's with people like yourself in mind that I took the time to start this thread. I'm just happy that you and others new to the forum find it a useful starting point. Of course everything can be altered to match your personal circumstances, and I stress that this is a "bare bones" set of instructions for people without a huge bucket of cash to hopefully see you through some of the more likely scenarios. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 6:36pm

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Foodwise we carry and use exactly what we would need in a survival situation. This food supply has a regular turn over so it is always in date. Even if we have to leave, we still have all the right foods on hand.

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 6:58pm Best survival books I have reviewed are by John and Geri McPherson. These skills and methods really work, and are not just copied from other survival books as so many others are. I have written a survival book but have not printed it. My book Primitive Fire Lighting-Flint and Steel is good, info not published elswhere as far as I know. I have written a second Primitive Fire Lighting book The Fire-Bow, but it too is only in manuscript form at this stage. Happy to answere questions though. I can make fire with a fire-bow in about 2 minutes or less once the parts themselves are made. I developed this method because (1) it can be made with primitive tools, and (2) because I have RSI in both arms, so making something work quickly and as easily as possible became a necessity. If there is enough interest in this book I will consider printing it, but so far little interest has been shown in my first book. Regards, KeithB

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 7:13pm All of the Australian wild food books I have seen are based on the Territory, because that is where the most wild foods are to be found. Does anyone know of a wild food book that covers more southern parts? Regards, KeithB

Posted By: Yacker Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 8:54pm I bought the Flint and Steel book and I'll buy the Fire Bow book too when it's released. And probably anything else you publish because this sort of material -- properly researched and TESTED -- is as rare as hen's teeth.

Posted By: Yacker Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 9:06pm KeithB wrote: Does anyone know of a wild food book that covers more southern parts?

The Tim Low book "Bush Tucker" contains many of the southern food plants, but the organisation of the book is strange and there is no locality guide given for many of the plants. Still, most of the plants are from Qld & NT.

Posted By: island mk2 Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 9:07pm

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KeithB wrote: All of the Australian wild food books I have seen are based on the Territory, because that is where the most wild foods are to be found. Does anyone know of a wild food book that covers more southern parts

neither Wild Food by A.B & J.W Cribb, or Wild Food Plants of Australia by Tim Low are focussed on the territory, a quick scan through both copies shows food plants widely distributed through all states.

-------------

Posted By: oldfox Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 9:24am Wild Food Plants of Australia by Tim Low is bloody good book. Thanks to Island put me onto it recently. Like KiethB I was also a little frustrated with other books focus on the top end/tropics. Spent a while going through this book and was pretty bloody happy to find lots of foods in my current area (NW NSW) that I literally walk over daily... no, not cat heads :P -------------

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 11:42am Thanks Yacca, I will let you know about other books. The original idea was to see how well the first book sold, and to use to money from sales to help print the next one. Unfortunately many of the people who I wrote the book for seem to think they know all about it already, which many of them don't. The book I have almost finished(3rd) is called The New World Woodsman 1700-1760, his clothing, arms and equipment. This book covers everything you would need in a survival situation, it worked 250 years ago and it still works now. Also covers foods. All it is waiting on is for the pics to be added and the cash to print it!

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 11:47am Thanks, I will check those books out. Regards, KeithB

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 12:28pm Yacker, just incase you did not recieve this update:

Supplement to Primitive Fire Lighting-Flint and Steel.

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Read Mace. Also known in Australia as Broad-leaved Cumbungi, and Bulrush. Piptoporus Cretaceus. Other similar bracket fungi: Laetiporus portentosus; Fomes fomentarius; Piptoporus betulinus. The Laetiporus looks very similar to the Piptoporus, and at one time was called by that name. Light Kindling: Outer bark of the Stringybark Tree. More information at: http://www.anbg.gov.au/fungi/aboriginal.html - www.anbg.gov.au/fungi /aboriginal.html

Regards, KeithB

Posted By: BushDoc Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 9:05pm Moreton Bay chestnuts are nice, easy to prepare if you're patient. Kind of like roast spuds with a barley taste. Beware of 2 things: 1. Must be soaked (at least a few days) to get rid of toxins. 2. Resulting mailto:f@rts - f@rts are bad enough to make the dog leave the room.

Posted By: z4zachariah Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:46pm Lows books good, but I'm looking more towards introduced plants. A few accidents, but a lot of exotics were brought to Oz to be used. Around Tas along the roads and in yards I've seen sorrel, fennel, apples, yarrow, dandelions, potato, all growing wild. There's likely to be lots more that I don't yet recognise. ------------History always repeats.

Posted By: greyman Date Posted: 16 November 2008 at 11:39pm Canned food storage tip Food items with a high acid content like tinned tomatoes will corrode/rust much quicker than other canned foods like creamed rice. As a result, you'll need to rotate such canned goods on a more frequent basis. We are consuming our 2005/06 canned goods now. An alternative is to by canned goods that have that slightly yellowishcoloured annodising to them, as none of them show any signs of rust after 3-4 years of storage. ------------No sword shall harm you, lest it be mine.

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Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 17 November 2008 at 7:22am Johnny66 wrote: Hi everyone, This is my first post after stumbling upon the Forum after reading some pseudo-'Survivalist' books. As many have stated, some of the material is so overwhelming (and, worse, encourages easy purchase of 'Quick Fix' survival items rather than measured practical consideration) that one can quickly become disheartened. This thread is a fantastic introductory guide for the beginner - with a much needed Australian flavour! Greyman - many, many thanks for the information, lists and tips contained herein, and to all others who contributed. I now feel I have a solid place to start, and can begin immediately to make even the smallest of differences to my state of 'readiness'. Again, many thanks. Not sure if I have posted this here before, but in case it is of any interest to you:

New Book for living historians & historical trekkers. Dear Sir/Madam, This is to inform you that my new book is now available, Primitive Fire Lighting-Flint and Steel. By Keith H. Burgess. This book was written for living historians, historical trekkers and survivalists. There is information in this book that I have not as yet seen published in the USA. Plant tinders, preparation, wet weather fire lighting, emergency fire lighting methods, reading glass fire lighting, and more. If you are serious about authenticity, then you should get this book, it will improve on your fire lighting skills in general and especially with flint and steel, and it will add to your knowledge. The cost is $11 Aust plus $2.50 P&P Aust, and $5.50 overseas. You can view the book index and purchase details on blog: http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/ - http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com Email: mailto:historicaltrekker@gmail.com - historicaltrekker@gmail.com Mail: Keith H. Burgess, Wychwood Forest, MSF 2007, Armidale NSW 2350, Australia. Regards to all, Keith H. Burgess. New England Colonial Living History Group.
All the information in this book is specifically for Australia, but in the info on wild tinder plants, I have cross referenced for same or similar plants in other countries. Regards, Keith.

------------I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately,to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teachhttp://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com

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Posted By: BlackKnight Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 5:56pm

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Wow, long thread but very informative thanks Grey. Just a generic query, i'll be moving overseas soon into a situation where food storage is not a real possibility (as I see it - sharing housing with strangers in Indonesia :s) but the idea of a BOB seems quite logical recommendations re content? The other thing that has me most curious is skills, what skills should we endeavor to develop and how do we go abt learning them (courses, classes, practical lessons/books, etc). I have a huge electronic collection of books and vidz but at the end of the day I don't really practice the skillset so its just books and not skills (if that makes sense)...so skills such as: cooking without all the conveniences, survival courses, tracking, hunting, combat (armed, unarmed, ranged), riding a motorbike, horse. Archery - in Sydney you can learn at Homebush Olympic Park - http://www.archerycentre.com.au/ Combat - martial arts i guess (but again from xp i've found that studying it (going to classes once or twice a week) doesn't help that much when you get surprised as it isn't a practiced skill)

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 5:48am Black Knight. Moving to another country & living under the conditions you describe makes it more difficult to advise. What you need is a BOB and skills that suit your present enviroment, eg the one you are in when TSHTF. Think about the enviroment you are going to be in, think about what you would like to try and do if something goes wrong, and construct your BOB accordingly. If you were here in Australia, in the city, then you would probably want to go bush and survive out of harms way. In which case you need: Fire lighting skills (see my post above on my book. Postage has gone up since post), primitive trap construction, general trekking and camping skills, stalking and hunting, fishing, foraging, primitive shelter construction, gun repair and use, archery, bow & arrow making, cordage making, and the list goes on. In our group, we learn and practice all this stuff as part of our normal activities in 18th century Historical Trekking. Regards, Keith.

------------I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately,to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teachhttp://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com

Posted By: z4zachariah Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 2:09pm Anyone know of any good books with indepth knowledge on cordage making? ------------History always repeats.

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Posted By: nifty Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 4:34pm Blackknight, For combat related defence and lethal simplicity i reckon you cant go past "The essential Ray Floro DVD's" http://www.rayfloro.com/ .Ray has trained Korean special forces, SAS, State protection and any other protection group you would care to name here and overseas. His specialty is knife and stick defence which can be readily adapted to unarmed defence. Easy to learn and replicate under pressure. I trained for four years in Modern arnis/kali/escrima (stick and knife fighting) and got bogged down with to many complicated moves that only worked if someone was standing still with their arm outstretched and their eyes closed. It looked good when the chicks were watching . After taking some private lessons with ray i gave up training kali and concentrated on the half dozen or so moves ray taught me. He now has that training on his two dvd's. I dont have any shares or interest in ray's stuff. He's just a down to earth guy who teaches stuff that works. I've had to wade through a lot of sh*t over the last twenty years to find something that works. Others may have different views Just my two cents.

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 4:55pm z4zachariah wrote: Anyone know of any good books with indepth knowledge on cordage making? Yes, me. But it is part of my Fire-bow fire lighting book, as yet still a mauscript. If you want I can explain the process here, and maybe even post some pics of the process ? Regards, Keith.

------------I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately,to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teachhttp://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com

Posted By: DoggyDaddy Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 5:54pm

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Z4Z...... wrote [His specialty is knife and stick defence which can be readily adapted to unarmed defence.] I carry a walking stick & not because I need to on account of any physical incapacity or affliction. No one is going to arrest me for carrying a concealed, or an unconcealed weapon for that matter I have a selection, one or two are weighed. I spend 15-30 minutes each day working with a stick & find the exercise envigorating. I've been in to this form of exercise, martial art form, for a number of years & am pretty adept. Even had some occasions to put some rascals to flight, albeit with limps. If anyone happens to be interested in what I'm talking about, google H G Lang or Barton Wright & you'll understand what I'm on about. Sticks include Blackthorns & some home made pieces. ------------Hunt pigs & pussy! "Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live." ADOLF HITLER

Posted By: z4zachariah Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 10:00pm nifty wrote: Blackknight,For combat related defence and lethal simplicity i reckon you cant go past "The essential Ray Floro DVD's" http://www.rayfloro.com/ .

Have them, as well as scientific fighting congress of Aust. knife dvds, silat mubai' knife curriculum, etc, but find them all too 'duel' oriented. Will probably give Floro another going over, but am starting to pay more attention to old war manuals, books written by ex-prisoners (e.g. Don Pentecost and Harold Jenks), and just cos I like the style (even if they are duelling) Dwight McLemores books on bowie/big knife and tomahawks. If you are interested in old manuals, the following site has pdfs: http://www.safeism.com/blog/index.php/texts/ - http://www.safeism.com/blog/index.php/texts/ The Use Of The Broadsword - T. Page - 1746 Self Defence The Art Of Boxing - Ned Donnelly - 1881 Physical Culture and Self Defense - Robert Fitzsimmons - 1901 Sabre And Bayonet - AC Cunningham - 1906 The Cane As A Weapon - AC Cunningham - 1912 Ju-Jitsu Self Defence - W Bruce Sutherland - 1913 Practical Self Defence - Jacomb - 1918 Tricks of Self-Defence - WH Collingridge - 1920 Jiu Jitsu Wrestling Defence Against A Violent Attack - The Stillman Association - 1922 How To Become Handy With Your Fists - Percy Longhurst - 1922 Master At Arms Badge For Boy Scouts - Anon - 1925 Scout Wall Chart - The Scout - 1925? Combat Sans Armes - Anon - 1941 Disarming and Hand to Hand Combat - Training Bulletin GT-10 - 1942

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Shooting To Live - WE Fairnairn and EA Sykes - 1942 Unarmed Action - Micky Wood - 1942 Self Defense or Jiu Jitsu - Dewey Mitchell - 1942 Self Defence For Women - WE Fairbairn - 1942 Get Tough - WE Fairbairn - 1942 Stick Play - Yerkow - 1942 Combat Without Weapons - E Hartley Leather - 1942 Martells Simplified Ju Jutsu Offense and Defense - Jules Martell - 1942 Commando Jiu Jitsu - Irvin Cahn - 1943 Combat Conditioning Manual Jiu Jitsu - RE Hanley - 1943 American Art of Self Protection - Samuel B Cummings - 1943 Kill Or Get Killed - Rex Applegate - 1943 Combato - Bill Underwood - 1943 Do Or Die - AJD Biddle - 1944 How To Use Jiu Jitsu - IC King - 1944 American Combat Judo - Bernard J Cosneck - 1944 Judo 41 Lessons In The New Science of Jiu-Jitsu - T Shozo Kuwashima and Ashbel R Welch - 1944 Protect Yourself, The Secrets Of Unarmed Defense - Brooks Mendell - 1944 Abwehr Englischer Gangster-Methoden - Anon - 1945? Your HardsSecret Weapons! - Brooks Mendell - 1946 Ju-Jitsu And Other Methods Of Defence Simplified - Tommy Turner - 1948 How to Use The Yawara Stick - Prof. Matsuyama - 1948 Championship Fighting - Jack Dempsey - 1950 Marine Bowie - John Styers - 1950s? Cold Steel - John Styers - 1952 Lightning Ju-Jitsu - Harry Lord - 1950s? Modern Self Defense - RH Sigward - 1958 Canon Of Judo - K Mifune - 1958 Special Judo Self-Defense Course - Joe Weider - 1959 Handbook Of Self Defense In Pictures and Text - John Martone - 1962 Police Ju Jitsu - James M Moynahan - 1962 Pencak Silat - Alexander, Chambers & Draeger - 1972 Close Combat - US Marine Corps - 1999 Discussion on Fairbairn, Applegate and Knife Design - William Cassidy - 1999 Le Catch As Catch Can - Bontemps, Miquet and Arnaud - Unknown The Fine Art Of JuJutsu - Unknown - Unknown and http://stores.lulu.com/lawson - http://stores.lulu.com/lawson has a number of pdf texts as well. ------------History always repeats.

Posted By: z4zachariah Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 10:05pm KeithB wrote: Yes, me. But it is part of my Fire-bow fire lighting book, as yet still a mauscript. If you want I can explain

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the process here, and maybe even post some pics of the process ?

Regards, Keith.

Up for that action of course, but just as happy to acquire a copy of the manuscript. Any idea when it might get released in book form? ------------History always repeats.

Posted By: z4zachariah Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 10:07pm DoggyDaddy wrote: google H G Lang or Barton Wright & you'll understand what I'm on about. Sticks include Blackthorns & some home made pieces.

Will be doing that. Thanks. ------------History always repeats.

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 08 May 2009 at 6:18am z4zachariah wrote: KeithB wrote: Yes, me. But it is part of my Fire-bow fire lighting book, as yet still a mauscript. If you want I can explain the process here, and maybe even post some pics of the process ?

Regards, Keith.

Up for that action of course, but just as happy to acquire a copy of the manuscript. Any idea when it might get released in book form? I was planning on combining the flint & steel fire lighting book with this Fire-bow book. Still looking for the best way to publish it. Keith.

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http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firebowbook008.jpg"> Start learning with a narrow strip of cotton cloth. Fold the strip so one half is longer than the other. Hold it in your teeth so the two halves hang down. Take a half in between the thumb and forefinger of each hand. Twist both halves at the same time to your left. When you have twisted a small length on each side, cross them over each other to the right, and continue. When you get near to the shorter end, split it into a fork. Get another length of cotton and split its end into a fork. Place one fork into the other fork, and continue twisting. And yes, I did once cordage my beard when instructing a group!

http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firebowbook111.jpg">

http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firebowbook110.jpg"> If this is not clear, let me know and I will copy the text from my book. Regards, Keith.

------------I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately,to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teachhttp://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com

Posted By: z4zachariah

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Date Posted: 08 May 2009 at 8:44am Thankyou muchly. Looking forward to your books ------------History always repeats.

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Posted By: BushDoc Date Posted: 09 May 2009 at 2:10pm Australian Bushcraft by Richard Graves. Has a whole chapter on cordage.

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 09 May 2009 at 5:29pm There are several ways of making cordage, but when using bark etc I prefere the method I describe above, especially when making fine line for fishing. Natives make a two strand cordage on their leg. I use another method for cording linen thread. When making long lengths of cordage for tugs/ties, I move from mouth when it gains some length and place it under my foot and work backward. Keith.

------------I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately,to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teachhttp://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com

Posted By: gremlin Date Posted: 02 October 2009 at 8:51pm Went to botanical gardens the other day, very good display of aboriginal cordage and carry bags made in this manner.

Posted By: 2012ready Date Posted: 04 November 2009 at 3:03pm bump ------------Better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it.

Posted By: 2012ready

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Date Posted: 04 November 2009 at 3:04pm Hey Greyman any more to add

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------------Better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it.

Posted By: Bryan.H Date Posted: 05 November 2009 at 11:26pm z4zachariah wrote: Anyone know of any good books with indepth knowledge on cordage making? A new reply to an old post! I found the Koa Windsong DVD's useful to get the basic technique of twisting fibres into cordage. The primitiveways website has a few really useful cordage articles (well illustrated) also, and a section on basket weaving. (By basket-weaving I don't mean occupational therapy! )

------------The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time. Jack London

Posted By: BlackKnight Date Posted: 09 November 2009 at 9:06am Yeah have met Ray, and had several sessions with him, if he wasn't so expensive I would love to do more, the training is definitely good, and simple and at the end of a training session I actually feell like i've learnt something, the best part is the sparring like aspect. His 1hr session is solid with training and practice - so was really productive and his techniques are quite simple, definitely something I want to go back to with more funds :)

Posted By: AKM. Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 10:05pm Bump. For the new members. Start at page 1. ------------...Strangers have the best lollies......

Posted By: Kaii Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 11:04am Question, if well sealed what is the maximum shelf life of rice? I know its a damn stupid question but i want to double check that its pretty much indeffinit right?

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Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 11:40am Not so stupid Kaii, I have seen other grains that I have stored in their original packaging, and after a month or so they had some form of strands linking the grains, like some form of bug was in it. I have not seen this in rice though, but it would pay to keep an eye on it. Check it out occasionally. We actually use rice, so what we do is rotate it. We store some and every time we open a pack we purchase a new one, and work our way through it. woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com - Regards, Keith. Armidale NSW.

------------I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately,to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teachhttp://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com

Posted By: Bryan.H Date Posted: 01 June 2010 at 8:39pm These sites are worth a look, nothing new here for the oldtimers on the forum, but for people starting out, or as a refresher, there's solid, basic info... http://www.redcross.org.au/ourservices_acrossaustralia_emerg encyservices_prepare.htm http://www.redcross.org.au/ourservices_acrossaustralia_emerg encyservices_prepare.htm and.. http://www.pantrylist.com.au/ - http://www.pantrylist.com.au/

------------The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time. Jack London

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 02 June 2010 at 7:22am Bryan.H wrote: These sites are worth a look, nothing new here for the oldtimers on the forum, but for people starting out, or as a refresher, there's solid, basic info...

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http://www.redcross.org.au/ourservices_acrossaustralia_emerg encyservices_prepare.htm http://www.redcross.org.au/ourservices_acrossaustralia_emerg encyservices_prepare.htm and.. http://www.pantrylist.com.au/ - http://www.pantrylist.com.au/

Thanks Bryan, still useful even to us oldtimers. I sent these links to my sons as a reminder!

------------I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately,to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teachhttp://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com

Posted By: Volcano Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 10:38am Being a yank.. I love to read about all the things happening in Oz. Gotta be one of my fave places on the earth. That being said, I dont see much mention of how you might cook all the food, heat up the water that you have and sanitize. My experience -and what brought me to my current job - was that during any natural disaster that I have experienced (1 Hurricane, I earthquake) Right after the food is gone is the stores.. There is NO Fuel -of any kind. Propane cant be pumped because there is no electricity, all the small containers are gone (Your Anaconda store would be wrecked) and, if you have some stove that uses a proprietary bottle.. Impossible to get. I suggest adding some fuel to your storage needs Even a modest storage of charcoal briquettes will allow you to cook some meals. (I keep about 300 lbs in a bbl. The bbl is sealed and I put O2 eaters in it to keep the charcoal dry.) I love the tips Ive read so far and hope to be a contributor over time.

------------Mr. Volcano www.volcanogrills.com mark@volcanogrills.com

Posted By: KeithB Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 10:54am We cook on a wood burning stove, always have done. Both houses are equiped with heating fires and wood burning stoves, they also heat the water for showers etc. ------------I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately,to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teachhttp://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com

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Posted By: AKM. Date Posted: 24 February 2011 at 11:35pm Bumped for the Noobs. Start at page 1. Good relevant stuff.

------------...Strangers have the best lollies......

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