Sky News Australian Agenda Sarah Hanson-Young 8 July 2012

Interview with Sarah Hanson-Young, Greens Senator. Australian Agenda program, 8 July 2012 Peter van Onselen: We're joined by Senator Sarah Hanson-Young of the Greens who joins us out of Adelaide. Senator, thanks very much for your company.

Sarah Hanson-Young: Good morning Peter, good morning Paul.

Peter van Onselen: I know that you've been in Indonesia just recently over the last few days so I'm seeking your views on a whole range of issues in relation to that but we've got to start by getting your reaction to Sam Dastyari, his likening the Greens to One Nation. He's calling them extremists. Paul Howse has chimed in today in the Sunday News Limited papers and said that you're a bunch of loonies. How do you react to that?

Sarah Hanson-Young: Oh look, if the likes of Sam Dastyari and the rest of the faceless men get their way, they'll be destroying the government and everything that they've actually delivered and that does more for Tony Abbott than anyone else. And, you know, this call for preferencing the Greens last, which obviously means then preferencing the Coalition, basically it could be handing the Coalition control of the Senate. That's bringing back Work Choices, it's
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destroying the price on carbon, it's towing boats back. So all of the things that apparently Labor is meant to stand against. Sam Dastyari did say in his interview with you that, you know, there's a difference between the Greens' values and the Labor values. And that's right. The Greens have values and the Labor Party doesn't.

Paul Kelly: There's a particular element to this criticism, Senator. What's being said is that the Greens are a Left Wing version of One Nation. Now, that language is chosen very deliberately. I'm wondering what your response to that is?

Sarah Hanson-Young: I think the Labor supporters out there expect better from the Labor Party and I don't think that that type of categorisation of the mainstream values of the Greens and Greens' supporters standing up for justice, for fairness, for a sustainable economy and looking after our environment, you know, they are not extreme values. And I think Sam Dastyari has just insulted a good swag of the people that they rely on, election in and election out. And it's - I don't think it's very smart politics from his perspective but, you know, this is this is the problem with the Labor Party at the moment. You've got people like Sam Dastyari and the rest of the faceless men running around talking about themselves, spreading the disease of the Labor Party, rather than looking at themselves and going "how do we fix this? How do we actually reflect on what our values used to be?" and try and find some principles to stand by. I think Labor voters are dismayed that the Labor Party just doesn't stand for anything any more. And it's pretty clear. They are different to the Greens. They have lost their way. They've lost their principles and who knows what their values are, rather than internal bickering.

Paul Kelly: Bob Brown once said, or in fact said on a few occasions, that he wanted, at the end of the day, the Greens to replace the Labor Party as the major party on the progressive side
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of politics. What's your view of that? Do you think that's feasible as a long-run proposition or do you think that's just daydreaming?

Sarah Hanson-Young: Well, we are the party that stands up for progressive values. That's undoubtable. And I know we are going to get on and talk about asylum seekers and refugees in a moment and that's, I guess, the clearest example at the moment. But, you know, we also went to the last election saying we needed a comprehensive plan for tackling climate change and we have been able to deliver that. But we delivered that because we stood firm on our progressive values and understood that there is a concern and a desire amongst the Australian community to have a bit more fairness, to have a bit more forward thinking and future planning for our country, because if we just stick to the daily political bickering and backstabbing that happens inside the Labor Party this country will never go forward.

Peter van Onselen: All right, let's move on to refugees, Senator. You were in Indonesia over the last few days before returning to Australia Labor - for, not Labor, for the Greens National Council in your home state there. Can you just tell me what were you in Indonesia to do, what did you see, how has it affected the Greens' position on this issue?

Sarah Hanson-Young: Well, I left earlier this week and got back yesterday. I did a number of things. I spoke to officials from the UNHCR and the IOM - that's the International Organisation of Migration that Australia actually gives something in the vicinity of $50 million per annum to run their services. They run all the detention of asylum seekers and refugees in Indonesia. I spoke with refugees themselves. I went to a number of the different facilities that they are held in, including squat camps where those refugees are simply pretty much left to their own devices. And I also spoke with supporting agencies and NGOs who are working on the ground. And the clearest message across all of those groups - the officials, the
Australian Agenda 8 July 2012 Sarah Hanson-Young

refugees, and the NGOs working on the ground - was that people don't want to have to board boats. But there is a very, very serious desperation at the moment within these camps that people feel that is the only option they have; and I think we seriously need to consider and hear those concerns, and find a safer way for people to be able to find protection. These are people who have fled torture, persecution from places right around the world but increasingly so from Afghanistan. And these people haven't got safety in Indonesia. I saw the conditions in some of these camps and they're horrendous, and I saw mothers and fathers

Peter van Onselen: Can I just interrupt, Senator? Can I just seek your reaction, because we are talking here about, you know, the sort of motive behind people boarding these boats. Now, Christopher Pyne came out during the week and mocked this idea that this was anything other than a deliberate exercise whereby people board boats and then seek assistance to help get to Australia. I just want to play some of his comments to get your reaction.

Christopher Pyne: "What's happening in terms of asylum seekers using the Navy as an NRMA in order to come into Australia is just another symptom of the government's complete failure to protect our borders since August 2008."

Peter van Onselen: What's your response to that with him sort of putting it in those terms?

Sarah Hanson-Young: Oh look, I think Christopher Pyne is the last person that any of us should be going to for advice on refugee law and what to do in terms of this humanitarian issue. And the fact that the Liberal Party have come out with a policy to remove petrol from boats, I mean, that's basically sabotage. The idea that that is somehow a safe option for people who
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have fled persecution and torture, take away their petrol and hope, fingers crossed, that they will reach some land and not sink. And this is the crudeness of where this debate has got to: that the Coalition simply doesn't care. They're happy to take petrol out of people's boats, turn boats around without even thinking not just how that impacts on our relationship with Indonesia but on the actual very real danger of those people's lives. And then you have got the Labor Party who have totally sold out their values, have not stood by the things that they espouse to believe in, which is fairness and justice, and simply saying: "Well, we don't want these refugees here, anywhere but here. Anywhere but here, but not in Australia". And it's not about saving lives. This is a total myth, and it's very deceitful of the Labor Party, and of course the Coalition, that this debate is in any way about saving people's lives. It's not. It's about a race to the bottom.

Paul Kelly: Now, just on that point, Senator, the Greens have said we should take more refugees from Indonesia. Now, Labor, in response to that, says it's completely naive and it's a complete myth to think that that will stop the boats. Now, what's your response to that proposition?

Sarah Hanson-Young: Well, that's - Paul, I'm glad you asked that because that's exactly what I went to Indonesia to look at. And I was told very clearly from the people on the ground, UNHCR, IOM officers and others, that when Australia has at times increased the resettlement numbers for a short period of time, it has automatically correlated in a drop of people boarding boats. And when I spoke to refugees in the refugee camps, they said "I do not want to have to take my family on a boat". They were pleading not to have to take that option. The problem is there is an assessment happening on the ground in Indonesia, but it's not happening fast enough. It's a very slow process. And then even once you have been found to be a genuine refugee there is no real prospect of being resettled. So that's why people get desperate. And they've fled some pretty awful circumstances. One
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mother said to me "Well, I had to flee from the Taliban and I've been running with my three children for the last 10 years. I've got to Indonesia. If I have to board a boat to secure safety and that's my only option, then I'm going to have to take it". We have to be giving people a safer option. One of the things - just let me - I just want to make one point. One of the things about the situation in Indonesia is because people have no legal rights in Indonesia they are left there stranded. So even though they are having the assessment, their kids can't go to school, they can't access the medical clinics, they can't go to the hospital, they can't work. So it all compounds this issue of desperation and they will take whatever option is available. These are patients looking for safety for their kids and, as a parent, as I know you are Paul, and many, many people out there understand that you do what you can to secure freedom and protection for your children.

Paul Kelly: But just on that point though, just on that point Senator, if we create incentives and we take more refugees direct from Indonesia doesn't that simply encourage more people to go to follow that avenue of access to Australia?

Sarah Hanson-Young: Well, there are people there in these camps, there's about two and a half thousand people that and figure stays pretty steady from what the figures that the UNHCR have been giving me. And these aren't people who have gone to Indonesia for a picnic. They have fled persecution and torture. And while the Taliban continue to torture Hazaras in Afghanistan, those people are going to continue to flee.

Peter van Onselen: Can I just ask

Sarah Hanson-Young: So there's no silver bullet to this problem. This is a humanitarian issue. And this is the
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point: don't be fooled that somehow dumping people out of sight, out of mind in Malaysia or locking them up in Nauru or giving temporary protection visas is somehow going to stop desperate refugees from needing protection. It won't. It won't stop people boarding boats. And in fact more people will take further boat journeys to places like New Zealand, which is even more dangerous, putting more lives at risk. This issue of deterrent has been proven to fail over and over again. Mandatory detention was put up and we were told it would deter people. It didn't. Temporary protection visas were put up and we were told that was - we needed them because it would deter people. They didn't. It actually cost people's lives. The Pacific Solution was put up. And then we saw the Siev X sink with 353 lives. Deterrents don't work.

Peter van Onselen: Can I just ask you about the Pacific Solution just as a final question, if I can. Now, what is wrong with a compromise that involves using Nauru? Now that they have signed on to the relevant UN treaties, they would be under Australian control in a detention facility in Nauru. In terms of the spirit of compromise to try to find some solution before parliament broke, given that Tony Abbott took temporary protection visas, at least so far as a compromise goes, off the table, what other than the fact that they would be housed on Nauru rather than Australia, is wrong with the Greens supporting that?

Sarah Hanson-Young: Because, Peter, it doesn't stop people coming by boat. The people who would be sent to Nauru are only those people who arrive in Australian waters to then be expelled to that particular detention centre. What we need to be doing is stopping people from boarding the boats in the first place, and you give them an incentive not to board boats by giving them some hope where they are, and that is at the moment in refugee camps in Indonesia and in Malaysia. This idea that we have to set up another Christmas Island, which is basically what Nauru would be, out of sight, out of mind, further away and that's going to stop boats, just isn't realistic. And it's a myth. This idea that all of these policies
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are going to stop desperate refugees from being refugees is simply not true, and it's deceitful.

Peter van Onselen: All right, Senator Hanson-Young, we appreciate you joining on this edition of Australian Agenda. Thanks very much for your company.

Sarah Hanson-Young: Thank you.

Australian Agenda

8 July 2012

Sarah Hanson-Young