Jake Wagner, Court Docs Hearing Excerpts

STATE OF OHIO vs GEORGE WASHINGTON WAGNER IV
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·
·1· · · · · · · · IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS

· · · · · · · · · · · ·PIKE COUNTY, OHIO
·2
·3
·4· · STATE OF OHIO,
·5· · · · · · ·PLAINTIFF,
·6· · VS.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·ACTION NO.:

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 18-CR-155
·7
· · · GEORGE WASHINGTON WAGNER IV,
·8
· · · · · · · ·DEFENDANT.
·9
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· · · · · · · ·EXCERPTS - EDWARD JACOB WAGNER - VOL. 1
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13· · · · · · · · · Transcript of excerpts of the
14· · proceedings had in the trial of the above-styled
15· · action before the Honorable Randy D. Deering,
16· · Judge, on Monday, the 24th day of October, 2022.
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Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 Page 2
·1· · APPEARANCES:
·2· · · · ·ON BEHALF OF THE STATE:
·3· · · · · ·ROB JUNK, ESQ.

· · · · · · ·PIKE COUNTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY
·4· · · · · ·100 EAST SECOND STREET
· · · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
·5· · · · · ·(740) 947-4323
· · · · · · ·RobJunk@pikecounty.oh.gov
·6
·7· · · · · ·ANGELA R. CANEPA, ESQ.

· · · · · · ·SPECIAL PROSECUTING ATTORNEY
·8· · · · · ·PIKE COUNTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY
· · · · · · ·100 EAST SECOND STREET
·9· · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
· · · · · · ·pikespecial@gmail.com
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· · · · · · ·DAVID WILSON, ESQ.
11· · · · · ·SPECIAL PROSECUTING ATTORNEY
12· · · · · ·100 EAST SECOND STREET
· · · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
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14· · · · · ·RYAN SCHEIDERER, SPECIAL AGENT

· · · · · · ·OHIO BCI&I
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17· · · · ·ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
18· · · · · ·JOHN PATRICK PARKER, ESQ.

· · · · · · ·988 EAST 185TH STREET
19· · · · · ·CLEVELAND, OHIO· 44119
· · · · · · ·advocateparker@gmail.com
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· · · · · · ·RICHARD M. NASH, JR., ESQ.
21· · · · · ·526 SEVENTH STREET
· · · · · · ·PORTSMOUTH, OHIO· 45662
22· · · · · ·richardnashesq@yahoo.com
23· · · · · ·GEORGE WASHINGTON WAGNER, IV, Defendant, in

· · · · · · ·person
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·1· · October 24, 2022.

·2· · · · · · ·(Transcript of excerpts of the testimony
·3· · of Edward Jacob Wagner.)
·4· · · · · · ·(Defendant entered the courtroom.)
·5· · · · · · ·(Counsel and reporter went to the Court's
·6· · chambers.)
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are on the record in the
·8· · case of State of Ohio, plaintiff, vs. George
·9· · Washington Wagner, IV, defendant, Case Number
10· · 2018-CR-155.· We are in the judge's chambers.· In
11· · addition to the judge and the reporter and the
12· · judge's bailiff, Mr. Frazier, we have counsel for
13· · the defendant, John Parker and Richard Nash.· We
14· · have prosecuting attorney, Rob Junk, special
15· · prosecuting attorneys, Angela Canepa and Andrew
16· · Wilson.
17· · · · · · ·We've convened here, I believe, at the
18· · request of defense counsel, I think.
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Of course in the absence of
21· · the jury.
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We'll waive our client's
23· · presence.
24· · · · · · ·Judge, two things we wanted to discuss.
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·1· · · · · · ·One, obviously Jake's testifying today we

·2· · hear.
·3· · · · · · ·So -- and when we were here the other day,
·4· · there was some communication from his attorney,
·5· · Mr. Meyers, and we never --
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You did get a copy of that?
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We did.· And I saw Mr. Meyers
·8· · in the hallway downstairs.· I didn't talk to him.
·9· · I just said hello.· But we're just curious as to
10· · his role, I guess in this, because I think there
11· · was some indication in the communication that his
12· · client might want to talk to him during the
13· · testimony, and I think that's completely
14· · inappropriate.· And there's been no motion filed or
15· · anything that I'm aware of by his counsel.
16· · · · · · ·So I just wanted to kind of get a lay of
17· · the land if there's been any additional information
18· · concerning that or what --
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The Court has none.
20· · · · · · ·I am curious about that, though.· I mean,
21· · does the State anticipate that in the middle of
22· · Mr. Wagner's testimony he's going to confer with
23· · somebody.· That would seem to be --
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· We do not anticipate that,
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·1· · Your Honor.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· -- unusual and unfair,
·3· · perhaps.
·4· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Not at all.· I had that
·5· · conversation with Mr. Meyers, and he's completely
·6· · in agreement with that.
·7· · · · · · ·You know, what did he -- what term did he
·8· · use?· But, regardless, there were not to be any
·9· · breaks to consult with attorneys.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Period.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Maybe that answers one
13· · question.
14· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· But Jake did want his
15· · attorneys present in the courtroom while he
16· · testifies, which I think is appropriate.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't think defense --
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I can't object to somebody in
19· · the public courtroom.· The consultation part is
20· · what concerned us.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Secondly, we're obviously
23· · entitled to any statements Jake has made.· We've
24· · not received anything recently.· I don't know if
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·1· · the State has talked to him recently or not.· I'm

·2· · assuming not since we don't have any new
·3· · statements.
·4· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, I just talked to him
·5· · yesterday.· So -- but that's trial prep, that's not
·6· · an interview or a statement.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Well, I think any -- I think
·8· · under 16 any codefendant statement we're entitled
·9· · to.
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's not a statement.
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· So that's a concern of ours.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· You're entitled to witness
13· · statements too, but not during trial prep, and you
14· · so eloquently said it the other day when I said,
15· · Where are the recordings of your witnesses, you
16· · said, we're not required to record every meeting
17· · with our witnesses.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Right.· The defense is not,
19· · but different rules with the State.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Regardless, it was not a
21· · statement.· It was not an interview.· It was trial
22· · prep.· So --
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· There was a lengthy -- the
24· · Court's aware of hearings that we've had that there
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·1· · was a lengthy proffer.· I don't know what the

·2· · status of that is.· Is that something that's
·3· · transcribed?
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We have a copy of that.· We
·5· · have no complaints about that.
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA; it's a 12-hour proffer.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And I suppose if anything that
·8· · you discussed with him in trial prep is different
·9· · from his proffer, that you would confer with
10· · counsel about that?
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Absolutely.· If he was saying
12· · something different now than what he said during
13· · his proffer, first of all, he's going to say it
14· · different on the stand if he's saying it different
15· · now.
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Well, I guess our position is
17· · that we're entitled to any statements by a
18· · codefendant, whether they want to classify it as
19· · trial prep or not, it's an interview.· It's a
20· · statement by a codefendant.· We think we're
21· · entitled to that.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Was it recorded in any way?
23· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It was not recorded.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You're indicated that's
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·1· · nothing that differed from the proffer they already

·2· · have?
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Correct.· And it was -- I'm
·4· · going to ask you questions, they're going to ask
·5· · you questions.· If you don't understand, da, da,
·6· · da, tell the truth.· Blah blah blah.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That does raise one other
·8· · thing about understanding the questions and so
·9· · forth.· One of the things in Mr. Meyers' email --
10· · Mr. Meyers was, as counsel's aware, is that he
11· · indicated that Jake Wagner had a hearing problem or
12· · didn't hear maybe perfectly well.· I'm not sure how
13· · bad it is.· One thing that would help is if -- now,
14· · our mikes out here are not all directional mikes.
15· · They're supposed to pick up other things, but I
16· · have noticed when people depart from the microphone
17· · the level of broadcasting or amplification, I
18· · should say, goes down marketedly.· So it would help
19· · if counsel stayed close to or in front of the
20· · microphone and kept your voice level high. I
21· · notice counsel from time to time -- defense counsel
22· · -- puts the mike on the floor.· That runs the risk
23· · of the Court not being able to hear things that
24· · defense counsel's directing to the Court.· But it
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·1· · certainly would make it difficult for the witness

·2· · to hear.· So if you're going to do that, then you
·3· · need -- whenever you say anything, you need to make
·4· · sure that your voice is loud enough to be heard.
·5· · And I would suggest that a mike be in front of you
·6· · somewhere.· And the State same way.· We do want the
·7· · witness to be able to hear the questions.· We don't
·8· · want subsequently it be said that he didn't
·9· · understand what he was saying or what he was
10· · responding to.
11· · · · · · ·So that would be the only --
12· · · · · · ·The other thing I was going to mention
13· · totally off this subject matter except that it
14· · does -- it is a trial matter.· There are two
15· · pending motions here.· One was 112 and I know we
16· · need to put this on the record in the defendant's
17· · presence, but it was a motion to allow the
18· · witnesses to testify remotely.· It's the Court's
19· · understanding the defense is going to be
20· · withdrawing that?
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· That's correct, Your Honor.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Okay.
23· · · · · · ·And the other was 110, this judicial
24· · notice about the address of 3122 Union Hill Road.
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·1· · I don't know where we are with that.· It seems as

·2· · though we've had testimony from State's witness
·3· · subsequent to the filing of that that 3122 Union
·4· · Hill Road is in -- is it Adams County?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Scioto County.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· So I don't know if that
·7· · resolves that issue.· I don't know if that's a
·8· · stipulated matter at this point or whether we still
·9· · have this motion pending.· So that needs to be --
10· · we don't have to address that issue today, but I
11· · would like it addressed before we -- maybe as part
12· · of the conclusion of the State's case whether we
13· · have an agreement about that address.
14· · · · · · ·But -- okay.· So those are the things.
15· · When we go out there, I will probably raise both of
16· · those just as I've stated them here.
17· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Okay.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· That's fine.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is there anything else we need
20· · to put on this record?
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I don't think so, Judge.
22· · Thank you.
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The defendant is still
24· · upstairs, correct?
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He's here, but I would like

·2· · to use the restroom before we get started.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Sure.
·4· · · · · · ·(Counsel returned to counsel table and the
·5· · proceedings were resumed in open court as follows.)
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Good morning.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Good morning, Your Honor.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· This is another day of trial
·9· · in the State of Ohio, plaintiff, versus George
10· · Washington Wagner, IV.· Case Number 2018-CR-155.
11· · The defendant is present in court today.· He is
12· · with his attorneys, John Parker and Richard Nash.
13· · The State of Ohio is represented by prosecuting
14· · attorney Rob Junk and by special prosecuting
15· · attorneys Angela Canepa and Andrew Wilson.· Also
16· · present is Ryan Scheiderer of Ohio BCI&I.
17· · · · · · ·A couple of matters that the Court had
18· · mentioned to counsel, but felt it best to put on
19· · the record here.· They're nonjury issues at this
20· · point.
21· · · · · · ·One, there had been a motion number 112
22· · filed on October 7th requesting the defense
23· · requesting -- it's entitled "Defendant's motion to
24· · allow witness to testify remotely."· It's the
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·1· · Court's understanding that the witness involved

·2· · there that conflicts or whatever the problem was
·3· · has been resolved and that the defense is now
·4· · withdrawing defense motion 112; is that correct?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· That's correct.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The record will reflect that.
·7· · · · · · ·The other was a motion filed on
·8· · September 15th, 2022, defense motion 110, which was
·9· · entitled a motion to take judicial inside and had
10· · to do with the address of 3122 Union Hill Road,
11· · Peebles, and whether that was located outside Pike
12· · County.· We're not addressing that today, but that
13· · is an issue that the Court would like that motion
14· · addressed in some fashion before the State rests
15· · its case and we'll deal with that later.
16· · · · · · ·Is counsel for both sides ready to have
17· · the jury brought up?
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, Your Honor.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes, Your Honor.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Bring the jury up.
21· · · · · · ·(Jury returned to the courtroom.)
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Good morning, ladies and
23· · gentlemen of the jury.· It's good to see all of you
24· · here.· We begin another day of trial.
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·1· · · · · · ·Do any of you have any problems or

·2· · anything that you need to bring to the attention of
·3· · the Court at this time?
·4· · · · · · ·All right.· Hearing none, we're still on
·5· · the State's side of the case.
·6· · · · · · ·Is the State ready to proceed today?
·7· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes, Your Honor.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is the defense ready?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Does the State wish to call
11· · another witness?
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes, Your Honor.· The State
13· · would call Jake Wagner to the stand.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Before sitting down, would you
15· · raise your right hand.
16· · · · · · ·EDWARD JACOB WAGNER was thereupon called
17· · as a witness and, after having been first duly
18· · sworn, testified as follows:
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The State may examine.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Thank you, Your Honor.
21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What was that?
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He was talking to me.
23· · · · · · · · · · ·DIRECT EXAMINATION
24· · BY MS. CANEPA:
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Can you please tell us your name?

·2· · · · A.· ·Edward Jacob Wagner.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how do you spell your last
·4· · name?
·5· · · · A.· ·W-A-G-N-E-R.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, Mr. Wagner, I know you have
·7· · some difficulty hearing sometimes.
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·So if you cannot hear me, let me know and
10· · I'll speak up for you.· Okay?· Or we'll try to make
11· · other arrangements.· All right?
12· · · · A.· ·Okay.
13· · · · Q.· ·Can you please tell us how old you are?
14· · · · A.· ·29.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you currently incarcerated?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where are you incarcerated?
18· · · · A.· ·Columbus, ma'am.
19· · · · Q.· ·Columbus?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know the name of the
22· · jail that you are at?
23· · · · A.· ·I think it's CCR or FCCR1.· FCC1.
24· · · · Q.· ·Do you know the county it's in?
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·1· · · · A.· ·Franklin.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how long you
·3· · have been in the Franklin County Jail?
·4· · · · A.· ·Nearly four years now.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What was the date you were
·6· · arrested?
·7· · · · A.· ·November 13th, 2018.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was your mother, your brother,
·9· · and your father all arrested on that same date?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Prior to being arrested, can you tell us
12· · where you lived?
13· · · · A.· ·52 Havener Lane, South Webster, Ohio.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who did you live with there at
15· · that location?
16· · · · A.· ·My mother, my brother, my daughter, my
17· · nephew.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us whose home that
19· · was prior to you living there?
20· · · · A.· ·My grandfather's.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically your mother's
22· · father or your father's father?
23· · · · A.· ·My mother's.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was there a time that you lived on
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·1· · Bethel Hill Road?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us how long you lived at
·4· · Bethel Hill Road?
·5· · · · A.· ·Somewhere around 20 years.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And who lived there at Bethel Hill Road
·7· · when you lived there?
·8· · · · A.· ·My family and I.· My mom, my dad, my
·9· · brother, for a short period of time my daughter, my
10· · nephew, my brother's ex-wife, and Hanna Rhoden.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us where you lived
12· · after you left Bethel Hill Road?
13· · · · A.· ·260 Peterson Road, Peebles, Ohio.
14· · Adams County.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us who bought that
16· · home?
17· · · · A.· ·Myself and my brother.
18· · · · Q.· ·And what is your brother's name?
19· · · · A.· ·George Wagner, IV.
20· · · · Q.· ·You said IV?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is your father's name?
23· · · · A.· ·George Wagner, III.
24· · · · Q.· ·And does he go by another name?
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·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Bill.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Bill or Billy?
·3· · · · A.· ·Billy.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is your mother's name?
·5· · · · A.· ·Angela Wagner.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And does she go by Angela?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you moved to
·9· · 260 Peterson Road, did your mother also live with
10· · you?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And who else lived at that location?
13· · · · A.· ·My brother, his ex-wife Tabitha, my
14· · nephew, my daughter, and Hanna, and sometimes my
15· · father.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when your father wasn't at the
17· · 260 Peterson Road location, where was he?
18· · · · A.· ·At his mother's house.
19· · · · Q.· ·And who is his mother?
20· · · · A.· ·Fredericka Wagner.
21· · · · Q.· ·And where does his mother live?
22· · · · A.· ·On Flying W Farms, Piketon, Ohio.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
24· · · · A.· ·I don't know the street address.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us why the house at Peterson

·2· · Road was put in you and your brother's name?
·3· · · · A.· ·For insurance purposes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Explain that to me.
·5· · · · A.· ·My brother and I's credit and insurance
·6· · history was clean, so insurance would be cheaper
·7· · for us rather than my parents.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And can we just talk very quickly about
·9· · some of the reasons that was.
10· · · · · · ·Were there structures on Bethel Hill Road
11· · that burned?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, were those
14· · intentionally burned?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what structures do you recall
17· · burning or being burned on Bethel Hill Road?
18· · · · A.· ·Two houses.
19· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, the first house, do
20· · you recall when that was, approximately?
21· · · · A.· ·Somewhere around 2008.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then the second house, do you
23· · remember when that happened?
24· · · · A.· ·Somewhere in mid 2016, '17.· '13.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember when you bought the home
·2· · at Peterson?
·3· · · · A.· ·2014.· Early 2014.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so would it -- would it have
·5· · burned before or after that?
·6· · · · A.· ·Before.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And somewhat close in proximity of
·8· · time to that time?
·9· · · · · · ·Let me ask you another question.
10· · · · · · ·What did you do with the money that you
11· · got from the insurance for that second fire?
12· · · · A.· ·We purchased the Peterson farm.
13· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, was that -- did that
14· · have something to do with a fryer?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·The second?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, Mr. Wagner, did
19· · everyone in your family know that that was an
20· · intentional fire?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·You, your brother, your mother, and your
23· · father?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·And did you also plan ahead for that?· In
·2· · other words, did you take some steps prior to the
·3· · fire being set to preserve some of your property?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how you did
·6· · that?
·7· · · · A.· ·That better?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.
·9· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat the question?
10· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us how you -- what steps you
11· · took to preserve some of your property?
12· · · · A.· ·We boxed personal items of value, whether
13· · it was actual value or sentimental value, stored
14· · them in a trailer -- a pull-behind trailer and we
15· · put the trailer -- I think there was two trailers,
16· · actually.· One of them specifically was stored at
17· · Chris Rhoden's property and the other one I'm not
18· · sure.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· After the fires were set, were they
20· · turned into insurance as accidental fires?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know of any other items
23· · that were intentionally burned?· Not necessarily
24· · structures, but other items.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·On Bethel?

·2· · · · Q.· ·Anywhere.
·3· · · · A.· ·Oh.· Oh, we -- let's see.· Our semitruck.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you say "our semitruck,"
·5· · explain that to me.
·6· · · · A.· ·We had bought a semitruck, one single
·7· · semitruck, to work hauling cattle between my
·8· · brother, my father, and I.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall when that fire
10· · occurred?
11· · · · A.· ·It was earlyish 2016.
12· · · · Q.· ·And, lastly, was there a wreck in George's
13· · truck after 2016, I guess, or after April of 2016?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us why that occurred?
16· · · · A.· ·I intentionally crashed the vehicle to
17· · collect -- not collect, but to payoff the loan on
18· · the vehicle because it would have been too
19· · expensive to fix the internal engine damage -- or
20· · internal engine brokenness.· I can't think of the
21· · word.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
23· · · · A.· ·It cost too much to fix.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· This was George's truck and the
YVer1f
·1· · engine was -- needed fixed and it was going to cost

·2· · too much to fix?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Why did you -- why did you end up being
·5· · the person to wreck it?
·6· · · · A.· ·I volunteered.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, was anybody
·8· · else with you during that wreck?
·9· · · · A.· ·My uncle Chris.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did your uncle Chris know what
11· · was going to happen?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And, just for the record, what is your
14· · uncle Chris's last name?
15· · · · A.· ·Newcomb.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, he's your
17· · uncle, but is he also pretty close in age to both
18· · you and George?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And between you and George, can you tell
21· · us who the older one is?
22· · · · A.· ·George.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, Jake, growing up,
24· · what were some of the things that you and your
YVer1f
·1· · family would do together?

·2· · · · A.· ·You mean, like, hobbies?· We hunted.· We
·3· · fished.· We rode four-wheelers, played in the mud.
·4· · Went to the fairs, festivals, amusement parks, not
·5· · often.· We tinkered on engines.· I think that's
·6· · about it.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you go to school?
·8· · · · A.· ·Public school?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
10· · · · A.· ·For a very short period of time.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How short?
12· · · · A.· ·About a month.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And the remaining of your schooling
14· · was received how?
15· · · · A.· ·Homeschooled.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you -- was that true for
17· · your brother also?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And did you ever receive any other type of
20· · schooling after your homeschooling was finished?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·What schooling?
23· · · · A.· ·Both my brother and I had attended a
24· · technical education college in Lucasville for
YVer1f
·1· · diesel engineering.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You both attended?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you go at the same time?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how long was that?
·7· · · · A.· ·A year.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell me, are you close to
·9· · your brother?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And do you love your brother?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Do you believe he loves you?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Is it difficult for you to be here today?
16· · · · A.· ·Very.
17· · · · Q.· ·Is it true that you would love nothing
18· · more than for him to be able to go home?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Do you feel that way about your mother and
21· · father as well?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us, what type of jobs have
24· · you had?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Mechanic; welding; transportation, as in

·2· · truck driving.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And have some, all, or most of
·4· · those jobs been with your brother?
·5· · · · A.· ·Most.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You talked about hunting.· Can you
·7· · tell us, when you hunted, who would be hunting with
·8· · you?· Would it be just you and George, you and
·9· · George and your dad, or tell me about that.
10· · · · A.· ·A variety.· My brother and I mostly.
11· · Occasionally be my dad, uncle Chris, some members
12· · of the Rhodens, my friend James Roten and his
13· · family from Virginia, some of my uncle Chris's
14· · friends.
15· · · · Q.· ·You said some of your uncle Chris's
16· · friends?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Off the top of my head, that's about
18· · the ones that I can remember.
19· · · · · · ·Hanna a couple of times.· Uncle Chris's
20· · fiancée Randa most every time he went since their
21· · relationship started.· I think that's all.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If you had to say who went together
23· · for the greater part of the time, who would that
24· · be?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·My brother and I.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you mentioned James Roten.· And
·3· · that is with a T; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.· No relation to the Rhodens.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And they live in Virginia; is that
·6· · correct?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·So how often would they hunt with you per
·9· · year?
10· · · · A.· ·At least two weeks out of a year.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Would you say between you and
12· · George, was one of you the more avid hunter?
13· · · · A.· ·In certain aspects, I would say he.
14· · · · Q.· ·You would say he?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how do you mean that when you
17· · say "in certain aspects"?
18· · · · A.· ·Deer hunting is more of a science for him.
19· · Preparation, health and management of the herd,
20· · food plots, migration, anything that has to do with
21· · the best possible outcome for both the health of
22· · the herd and the possible harvest, he had -- I
23· · mean, he has knowledge of.· I would just go with
24· · the flow and looked to him for guidance.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Again, as another aside, did either

·2· · of you ever poach deer?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And what -- can you just tell us what does
·5· · poach mean?
·6· · · · A.· ·It can mean a majority of things, but the
·7· · most average is harvesting a deer out of harvest
·8· · season or above the quantity you're allowed or
·9· · without the legal weapon to use.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Basically outside of --
11· · · · A.· ·The law.
12· · · · Q.· ·-- hunting regulations?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes, outside of regulations.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what is
15· · spotlighting?· Is that the right term?
16· · · · A.· ·That's the accurate term.· Spotlighting is
17· · where you hunt deer after dark by shining a large
18· · flashlight towards any deer's eye so it has no
19· · chance -- well, for the most part.· At least, it's
20· · blinded so it doesn't have to see you on the other
21· · side.· It could be done on foot or in a vehicle and
22· · it can be done outside of season, but we did not do
23· · it outside of season.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us who would go
YVer1f
·1· · with you when you would do that?

·2· · · · A.· ·For the majority, it would be my brother
·3· · and I, my uncle Chris and his fiancée Randa.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You talked about various things that you
·5· · did as a family.· Would all of you go on those
·6· · family outings?
·7· · · · · · ·For instance, would it be you and your
·8· · brother and your mother and your father and your
·9· · two children?
10· · · · A.· ·For the most part, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Would you also shop together?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us some of the
14· · places that you guys would like to go shopping as a
15· · family?
16· · · · A.· ·We shopped for a majority of either
17· · Walmart, Kroger, Cabela's or Bass Pro Shop.· That's
18· · the majority.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell me a little bit
20· · about the finances in the home?
21· · · · · · ·For instance, if you were out and about
22· · and you were all at Bass Pro together and people
23· · wanted to buy things, you wanted to buy something,
24· · your mom wanted to buy something, maybe you wanted
YVer1f
·1· · to buy something for one of the children, whose

·2· · credit card would be used at Bass Pro?
·3· · · · A.· ·My own.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And why is that?
·5· · · · A.· ·It was a Bass Pro Shop credit card and it
·6· · earned rewards, points.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So even if you were making a
·8· · purchase for your brother or your father, you would
·9· · use your credit card?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was that the same for other
12· · stores?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Would you say, Jake, that you often
15· · helped each other also pay off debts?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·So, for instance, if you paid off your own
18· · debt -- you had a credit card; correct?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·The Bass Pro credit card?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·If that got paid off, would you then turn
23· · and help whoever else in the family had remaining
24· · debt on their credit cards or --
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You had various bank accounts; correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·Can you be more specific?
·4· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Did you have bank accounts -- a bank
·5· · account with your brother?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you have a bank account with your
·8· · mother?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you -- if you were not a
11· · cosigner on an account, would you still be able to
12· · use that account?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Within the family --
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·-- basically?
17· · · · · · ·Okay.· And why is that?
18· · · · A.· ·This was only at Peebles Bank, and because
19· · we knew the people personally that were employees.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· So is it fair to say
21· · that you basically would pool your resources for
22· · the common good in your home?
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· It's very
24· · leading.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll sustain that.· It's a

·2· · leading question.
·3· · BY MS. CANEPA:
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, Jake, what your
·5· · relationship with your mother was like?
·6· · · · A.· ·Close.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was your relationship like
·8· · with your brother?
·9· · · · A.· ·Closer.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was your relationship like
11· · with your father?
12· · · · A.· ·Closeish.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell me a little bit
14· · about -- did your family have family meetings?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us some of the things
17· · that you would discuss at these family meetings, or
18· · types of things?
19· · · · A.· ·I can't think of a proper word, but an
20· · example would be if we needed to build a fence,
21· · where it would go, how it would be situated.
22· · · · · · ·I reckon the best way to describe it would
23· · be -- maybe financial is not the proper word.
24· · Efficiency of the farm or other typical topics that
YVer1f
·1· · was oriented around the family.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And things like if you were
·3· · planning to maybe move or --
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I haven't heard enough
·6· · of the question.· What -- what's the --
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's leading, Judge.· He
·8· · answered the question previously.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I haven't heard the question
10· · yet, but --
12· · · · Q.· ·Were there other topics that you would
13· · discuss?
14· · · · A.· ·Generally, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At the end of the meetings, would
16· · you voice your opinion or kind of -- I don't want
17· · to say official cast of a vote, but vote on what
18· · the outcome should be?
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· It's very
20· · leading.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule that
22· · objection and let him answer it.
24· · · · Q.· ·You can answer.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Oh, I didn't know what overrule meant.

·2· · · · · · ·Can you repeat the question?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· At the end of the meetings, would
·4· · you voice your opinion or vote on what the outcome
·5· · should be of the discussion?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us where in the home those
·8· · meetings would typically take place?
·9· · · · A.· ·The kitchen.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And would you say that you took
11· · turns in who gets to decide?
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· It's a
13· · leading question.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll sustain that.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Who would typically get to decide
17· · at the end of those meetings what the outcome is?
18· · · · A.· ·It mostly depended on what the subject or
19· · topic was considering who it was for.
20· · · · · · ·How do I describe that?· For example, if
21· · it was something specifically my concern, I would
22· · have the final say or vice versa.· Something to do
23· · with family in general, such as a move, if we were
24· · all anticipating moving or something for the farm
YVer1f
·1· · specifically, it would be the type of layout to

·2· · where that would be most efficient for a certain
·3· · project or what it was being used for.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us who would
·5· · participate in those family meetings?
·6· · · · A.· ·Myself, my mother, my father, my brother.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Just going to round out some of
·8· · these background questions.
·9· · · · · · ·Did you and/or your dad and/or George ever
10· · steal things?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what sorts of things and
13· · who would be doing those things?
14· · · · A.· ·Can you be a little more specific on your
15· · question?
16· · · · Q.· ·Was there -- what things would you steal,
17· · first of all?
18· · · · A.· ·In a general aspect?
19· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
20· · · · A.· ·Fuel; lumber; appliances, I guess you
21· · could call it.· Useful things that you could use on
22· · a farm.· A wide variety.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you say useful things for use
24· · on the farm, like what kind of things are you
YVer1f
·1· · talking about?

·2· · · · A.· ·Like tools, gates, fencing, building
·3· · material, livestock.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And where would you steal those from?
·5· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure exactly how to describe it,
·6· · but, in a general aspect, in the -- the most --
·7· · most unlikely place that would hurt an individual.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Explain that answer.
·9· · · · A.· ·So if, for example -- I'll use you guys as
10· · a hypothetical example.· May I?
11· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
12· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Let's say Mr. Scheiderer was a
13· · farmer and he had a pile of fencing in his back
14· · yard that was unguarded, I would -- we would not
15· · steal his fencing.· But say if Mr. Junk was a truck
16· · driver that worked for -- has as a company and say
17· · he was hauling a load of fencing, for example, for
18· · a large company such as Lowe's, then it would have
19· · come to no cost to his personal pocket.· That's
20· · what I would or we would steal.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
22· · · · A.· ·Something that was insured.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you say "we," who would
24· · participate in those activities?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Myself and my father and brother.

·2· · · · Q.· ·When you indicated you would steal fuel,
·3· · how would you steal fuel?
·4· · · · A.· ·We set up a PTO-driven hydraulic pump
·5· · attached to our semitruck's transmission with
·6· · piping through the individual fuel tanks of the
·7· · semitruck that would transfer fuel from a company
·8· · vehicle's fuel tank to our fuel tank.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And was that during the time you were
10· · driving trucks?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Your own truck?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Is that when you had your own truck?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you also learn how to pick
17· · locks?
18· · · · A.· ·Did I do what?
19· · · · Q.· ·Learn how to pick locks.
20· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
21· · · · Q.· ·Would you say that you are a gun
22· · enthusiast?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And what about your brother or father?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Enthusiast would not be the proper word.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What would the proper word be?
·3· · · · A.· ·I mean, we all like guns, but I'm -- I
·4· · would say I'm the only enthusiast.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You owned guns and would you also
·6· · shoot them on your property?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And would your brother or father shoot on
·9· · the property?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, when you hunted,
12· · where did you hunt?
13· · · · A.· ·Can you be more specific on your question?
14· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· How about when you lived on Bethel
15· · Hill Road, where did you hunt?
16· · · · A.· ·On my grandparent's property, Flying W
17· · Farm, which is also part of Bethel Hill property.
18· · · · Q.· ·Bethel Hill is part of that property?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you lived on
21· · Peterson Road, where did you hunt?
22· · · · A.· ·As well as Peterson's property, the
23· · majority would be on the -- I guess you would call
24· · it the county roads in poaching, spotlighting.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You would do more poaching when you

·2· · lived at Peterson Road; is that fair?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And when you would fish, where would you
·5· · fish?
·6· · · · A.· ·Between a large pond on my grandparents'
·7· · property or Paint Creek Lake or spillway in
·8· · Bainbridge, Ohio.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· I'm going to refer your
10· · attention now to the Rhoden family with a D.
11· · · · · · ·What is your first memory of meeting any
12· · member of the Rhoden family?
13· · · · A.· ·I'm pretty certain my first interaction
14· · with the Rhoden family would be with Hanna.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Hanna Rhoden?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, where was the first
18· · time that you had that interaction?
19· · · · A.· ·It was at the Pike County Fair in 2010 in
20· · the 4-H barn, and Samantha Frederick had introduced
21· · me to her.
22· · · · Q.· ·And who's Samantha Frederick?
23· · · · A.· ·She's a childhood friend.
24· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if she also goes by Samantha
YVer1f
·1· · Staley?
·2· · · · A.· ·I do not.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so you met Hanna in a 4-H
·4· · building.· What do you recall from that?
·5· · · · A.· ·Say that one more time, please.
·6· · · · Q.· ·When you met Hanna in the 4-H building,
·7· · what do you recall from that meeting?
·8· · · · A.· ·I remember having just chitchat with
·9· · Samantha Frederick and Hanna had come up and she
10· · had -- Samantha had turned and said, oh, this is --
11· · I think she said something similar to this is my
12· · boyfriend's sister Hanna, and she had said hello
13· · and had -- was carrying her 4-H bunny.· It was a
14· · white, fluffy rabbit with black ears.· And she had
15· · told me -- she had asked me if I wanted to pet her
16· · bunny, and I kind of ignored it at first, started
17· · talking to Samantha again, and she was kind of
18· · pushy on the subject.· So she said it two, maybe
19· · three times.· I finally said, okay, I'll pet the
20· · bunny.· So I petted the bunny.· And somehow or
21· · another, short chitchat about the bunny or whatever
22· · and then told both of them I had to get back to the
23· · track because I was going to use my truck -- my own
24· · pickup truck in the local truck pull.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And do you know how old Hanna was at that
·2· · time?
·3· · · · A.· ·She was 13.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall how old you were at that
·5· · time in 2010?
·6· · · · A.· ·I was 17.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you see Hanna another time?
·8· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat the question?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Did you see Hanna another time after that
10· · first time?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall when or where that
13· · was?
14· · · · A.· ·It was several times.· Most were she
15· · was -- because she was a tagalong with Frankie --
16· · after I had met Hanna at the fair, I had met
17· · Frankie through Samantha, and had started hanging
18· · out with him.· And there was several times where
19· · he, Christopher, and Hanna, and I and my brother
20· · would go fishing at Paint Creek in Bainbridge.· And
21· · I think it was mostly just fishing for several
22· · times in that year.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you eventually start dating
24· · Hanna?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, where were you living
·3· · at that time?
·4· · · · A.· ·At Bethel Hill.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And did you talk to either one of her
·6· · parents before you started dating Hanna?
·7· · · · A.· ·Both.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Both of her parents?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Both Dana and Chris.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you get their permission?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me, did your father Billy
13· · also have a relationship with the Rhodens?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He at least had a relationship with
15· · Chris.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was that before or after you
17· · met Hanna in 2010?
18· · · · A.· ·I believe it was before.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you had not met Chris's
20· · children during that relationship that your dad had
21· · with Chris?
22· · · · A.· ·No.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· During those first few years that
24· · you were dating Hanna, would her parents have her
YVer1f
·1· · younger brother, Little Chris, or her older

·2· · brother, Frankie, accompany her when you would come
·3· · to your house?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And then would you do things together all
·6· · together, four-wheeling or whatever else you were
·7· · doing at that time?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Fairs, four-wheeling.· There was
·9· · several times where we were going deer hunting
10· · together.· Festivals.· Just around about stuff.
11· · Movies.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you and Hanna ultimately have a
13· · child together?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell me, do you remember how
16· · old Hanna was when she had your child?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·How old was she?
19· · · · A.· ·She was 16.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell me when your child
21· · was born?
22· · · · A.· ·Born on November 18th, 2013, at 2:30 p.m.
23· · in the afternoon.
24· · · · Q.· ·Prior to your daughter being born, did
YVer1f
·1· · Hanna live with you guys?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.· For the majority.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Prior -- before she was born or
·4· · after she was born?
·5· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· I misheard you.· I kind of
·6· · lost it there a second.
·7· · · · · · ·The question was prior, right?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Before your daughter was born, did she
·9· · live with you guys?
10· · · · A.· ·I think the correct word would be
11· · periodically.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· After your daughter was born, did
13· · she live with you more often?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was -- was that initially
16· · on Bethel Hill Road?
17· · · · A.· ·Initially means starting, right?
18· · · · Q.· ·Yep.
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did she also live with you on
21· · Peterson Road?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At some point did that change?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And tell me why.

·2· · · · A.· ·We had, I guess you would call it, a break
·3· · up, separation situation.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · A.· ·I guess you could call it that.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us approximately when
·7· · that was?
·8· · · · A.· ·February 2015.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us who initiated
10· · that break up or cut off of the relationship?
11· · · · A.· ·She did.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you want the relationship to
13· · end at that point?
14· · · · A.· ·No.
15· · · · Q.· ·Jake, I would like you to talk about a
16· · time where Hanna stated that you choked her.
17· · · · · · ·Can you tell us if you recall such an
18· · incident and what you recall about that incident?
19· · · · A.· ·I do recall the incident.· I never choked
20· · her.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you describe what you did?
22· · · · A.· ·I believe the argument was over yard work,
23· · I believe, trivial stuff.· And she had -- I'm not
24· · exactly sure of the right word.· To be blunt, I
YVer1f
·1· · guess you could say, and frank, she was lazy in her
·2· · responsibilities as she voluntarily chose to do.
·3· · And I was upset because she was making me do not
·4· · only my responsibilities but also hers.· I honestly
·5· · didn't have to, but if something doesn't get done,
·6· · I figured I needed to do it to get it done.
·7· · · · · · ·She -- in my eyes at the moment, she was
·8· · acting much like my brother's ex-wife.· Which at
·9· · the time I had not a high value of her attitude or
10· · her actions.· And she -- I don't know specifically
11· · why she was in her attitude that day.· She had an
12· · attitude.· I know she was on Facebook, and
13· · that's -- was my argument.· Basically she wanted to
14· · be on Facebook while everybody else was doing her
15· · responsibility, which was a very small
16· · responsibility.· Basically it was to mow the grass
17· · once every other week.
18· · · · · · ·And she stomped off outside.· I followed
19· · her.· And she was, I wouldn't say, yelling.
20· · Basically saying that I was always trying to have
21· · her do work that she didn't want to do.· I argued
22· · with her that she volunteered to do this work, I'm
23· · not trying to make her do.· I was just trying to
24· · tell her you need to do your job of what you said
YVer1f
·1· · you're going to do.· Because if I'm going to make

·2· · this farm work, I need you to do your part because
·3· · I'm -- basically my argument was that -- really I
·4· · guess my point was my idea was for her to do her
·5· · part so I could save enough to get a dairy calf
·6· · business going, a small dairy calf, and she was
·7· · going to be responsible for tending baby calves,
·8· · which is a lot of responsibility, time and
·9· · dedication.
10· · · · · · ·I was telling her if she can't do a single
11· · job of mowing the grass, how was she going to be
12· · able to do that to make actual money.
13· · · · · · ·And she had basically started to stomp off
14· · on the patio outside the house and was going to --
15· · saying something that she was -- she was just going
16· · to leave.· Not leave as, like, relationship or walk
17· · out of the house like that, just leave that time
18· · and go somewhere type thing.
19· · · · · · ·And I was frustrated, so I put my right
20· · hand on her -- she was facing me.· I put my right
21· · hand on her right shoulder just under her
22· · collarbone and used my forearm pressed against --
23· · under her collarbone, not on her throat, and I
24· · pressed her against the board on the patio and held
YVer1f
·1· · her there until she would stop basically -- I would

·2· · not say screaming was the word, but high-tone
·3· · argument.· And she was very mad.· So I basically
·4· · held her until she calmed down.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Approximately how long would you
·6· · say that lasted?
·7· · · · A.· ·Less than five minutes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At some point after the breakup
·9· · that you had in February of 2015, did Hanna start
10· · seeing somebody by the name of Charlie Gilley?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you aware as to whether or
13· · not Charlie is the brother of Hannah Hazel Gilley?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Yes, he is?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He's the brother.
17· · · · Q.· ·After she dated Charlie Gilley, did Hanna
18· · start seeing someone by the name of Corey Holdren?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And you became aware of that; correct?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And did you ever meet Corey Holdren?
23· · · · A.· ·Once, maybe twice.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was one of those times at your
YVer1f
·1· · daughter's birthday party at the fire station?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And did you at one point go over to his
·4· · home?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And how did you find out where he lived?
·7· · · · A.· ·I had called Andrew Carson, a friend of
·8· · mine, and he informed me where he lived.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Did Mr. Carson know him?· I mean, how did
10· · he know where he lived, I guess?
11· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure if they were, per se,
12· · friends, but I do at least know that they at least
13· · knew each other.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At some point did you ask Samantha
15· · Frederick to more or less spy on Hanna?
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm going to sustain
18· · that.· That's a leading question.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At some point did you make a
21· · request of Samantha Frederick regarding Hanna?
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.· I overruled that
24· · one.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·Oh, sorry.
·3· · · · · · ·You can answer, that means.
·4· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And what did you request of Samantha
·6· · Frederick?
·7· · · · A.· ·I'd had asked her to inform me any time
·8· · she was babysitting my daughter and if Hanna was
·9· · doing anything that she considered bad parenting.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did Samantha live close to
11· · Corey Holdren at that time?
12· · · · A.· ·Across the street.· Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, during the time
14· · that -- I guess, during 2015, did you have concerns
15· · about -- did you have concerns regarding your
16· · daughter?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And --
19· · · · A.· ·Excuse me just a second.· I'm sorry.
20· · · · · · ·Can you repeat that question?
21· · · · Q.· ·I said did you have concerns about your
22· · daughter during that year of 2015?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And what were those concerns?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I was concerned that Hanna was going to

·2· · let my daughter be molested.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you base those
·4· · concerns on?
·5· · · · A.· ·Are you wanting specifics as in the
·6· · reactions of Sophia or reactions -- or my knowledge
·7· · of people that she was just, I don't know --
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Whatever caused those concerns for
·9· · you.
10· · · · A.· ·Okay.· To my knowledge at the time, what
11· · I'd heard from several people, the -- her choice of
12· · men was some kind of drug user of various sorts,
13· · however you describe it.
14· · · · · · ·There was a time when I had been informed
15· · from Hanna's cousin -- I'm not sure -- Patricia
16· · Manley I think her last name is.· It was Patricia.
17· · I'm sure everybody knows who that is.· She had told
18· · me that -- actually texted me and told me that
19· · Hanna and Charlie -- Hanna had went to put Sophia
20· · to sleep in her room, and then her and Charlie were
21· · both in the room and locked the door and were in
22· · there for hours and not answering the door whenever
23· · she knocked.· She did not elaborate on what that
24· · meant, but I assumed she may have put Sophia to
YVer1f
·1· · sleep and possibly -- possibly may have been doing

·2· · inappropriate things with my child in the room with
·3· · them, I guess you could call it.
·4· · · · · · ·Beside that, my daughter had told me that
·5· · Corey Holdren had locked her in the bedroom and
·6· · left her there for hours while she screamed for her
·7· · mother and no would one would come to rescue her.
·8· · She told me that she had screamed for me and I
·9· · didn't come to rescue her.
10· · · · · · ·When it was time -- I need to expound.
11· · · · · · ·I kept Sophia -- our agreement with Hanna
12· · was between the two of us that while I was on the
13· · road, she would keep Sophia one week and while I
14· · was home for one week I would have Sophia for one
15· · week.· And while I was at home, Sophia would cling
16· · to me, and every time that she was -- it was time
17· · for her to go home, she would scratch and claw,
18· · however she could to hold onto my leg and scream,
19· · "Daddy, please don't make me go" with eyes that
20· · were filled with tears and, to what I could see,
21· · was a form of terror of some kind.
22· · · · · · ·I did not know what was going on, but I
23· · asked Dana Rhoden.· She said she was just being a
24· · brat.· I asked Hanna about it.· She said that
YVer1f
·1· · nothing out of the ordinary was going wrong.· And I

·2· · confronted Hanna, I said, "Hanna" -- well, I guess
·3· · I should probably say this first.
·4· · · · · · ·There's a past history in my family and
·5· · Hanna's and Tabitha's of either rape or child
·6· · molestation.· And because of those, I had a deep
·7· · fear for my own daughter when she was born.· And I
·8· · solemnly swore to her while she was in my arms that
·9· · I would never let anything happen to her, as it
10· · happened to Tabitha, as it happened to Hanna, and
11· · happened to my mother and to a couple cousins of
12· · mine.
13· · · · · · ·I confronted Hanna about all of those
14· · things and she was abrupt with me.· She said I was
15· · overreacting.· She said that Sophia was just being
16· · a brat.· It's the same opinion as Dana told me.
17· · And I told her abruptly, Hanna, what if your
18· · carelessness leads to my daughter being molested,
19· · as you was?· And she said, I guess we'll just have
20· · to deal with it.
21· · · · · · ·And those are my concerns.· And I was
22· · very -- very fearful that it was going to happen or
23· · had already happened.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anyone else in your family
YVer1f
·1· · share those concerns?

·2· · · · A.· ·To some extent, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And to some extent, who in your
·4· · family?
·5· · · · A.· ·My father, my mother, and my brother.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you trying to -- had you
·7· · obtained an attorney at some point to try to get
·8· · 50/50 parenting?
·9· · · · A.· ·I believe it's called shared parenting
10· · with equal rights, but yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us if Hanna seemed
12· · interested in signing any of the paperwork that you
13· · and your attorney had tried to get her to sign?
14· · · · A.· ·For a good period she did seem very
15· · interested.· Towards the end of 2015, it seemed
16· · more along the lines she was just stalling for some
17· · odd reasons.· I don't know what the reason.· She
18· · told me she was getting a lawyer to double-check
19· · the paperwork, which was very, very short.· And
20· · said it was Chris Rhoden Senior's legal lawyer that
21· · he used from Columbus.· I don't believe there was
22· · ever such a lawyer.
23· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me, during this time, did you
24· · also start to also record your drop-offs and pick
YVer1f
·1· · ups of Sophia with Hanna?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And would there be times where your mother
·4· · and/or George would be with you during those
·5· · drop-offs and pick ups?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·During this time period, was someone in
·8· · your family also monitoring Facebook private
·9· · messages of Tabitha and her mother?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And who was monitoring that?
12· · · · A.· ·My mother.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, specifically, who is Tabitha?
14· · · · A.· ·She is my brother's ex-wife.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And while your mother was
16· · monitoring those conversations, did she also
17· · observe a conversation that occurred between
18· · Tabitha's mother and Hanna Mae?
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You're objecting because it's
21· · leading?
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's leading, and he lacks
23· · personal knowledge on it.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll sustain the
YVer1f
·1· · objection.· There should be some foundation laid

·2· · for --
·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you become aware of a conversation
·5· · that your mother observed occurring between
·6· · Tabitha's mother and Hanna Mae?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall what the general nature
·9· · of that conversation was?
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to sustain that.· We
12· · still don't have how he became aware of it.
14· · · · Q.· ·How did you become aware of that?
15· · · · A.· ·Two forms, actually.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·The first was through my mother and the
18· · second was through Hanna herself, Hanna Rhoden.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was that -- the nature of
20· · that conversation?
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The basis?
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's hearsay.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, if we could
YVer1f
·1· · approach on this.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
·3· · · · · · ·(Counsel approached the bench and the
·4· · following proceedings were had before the Court,
·5· · out of the hearing of the jury.)
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· This is the message.· This is
·7· · the message that the Court ruled on comes into
·8· · evidence, not for the truth of the matter asserted
·9· · but because it forms the motive of them to commit
10· · these homicides.
11· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· It was for mindset.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Not judge Angela's mind set
13· · but all of them.· It --
14· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· So it's for the truth of the
15· · matter to prove motive?
16· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· No, it's not.· It's Hanna's
17· · state of mind when she makes the statement that she
18· · won't sign papers ever, they have to kill me first.
19· · And it also goes to -- it's not being for truth of
20· · the matter asserted.· Right now it's was he aware
21· · of the message, which is the linchpin to it
22· · becoming --
23· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· It's res judicata.· It's res
24· · judicata.
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It doesn't come in through

·2· · this witness.
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· So -- this is the witness
·4· · that has the primary motive.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The question is how he knows
·6· · of this conversation.· Isn't that where we are?
·7· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He already said both his
·8· · mother and Hanna.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· She's getting into the
10· · content of the message, Judge.· That's what we're
11· · objecting to at this point.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· This was raised pretrial and
13· · the Court already ruled that this comes in.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That ruling had to do, though,
15· · with whether the statement by Hanna was hearsay
16· · because an exception to telling him something.
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's that conversation that
18· · he became aware of.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Did he see it?
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I'll ask him that.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well --
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· But it's no different if I
23· · say to you, "Rick is coming after you," and then
24· · you take some action against him.· It's not for the
YVer1f
·1· · truth of the matter asserted.· It's that you heard

·2· · that and believed it and that's why you took action
·3· · against --
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Give me a little
·5· · bit more foundation about when this conversation --
·6· · how he learned it, when he learned it.
·8· · proceedings were resumed in the hearing of the jury
·9· · as follows.)
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll sustain the objection to
11· · the form of the question.
13· · · · Q.· ·Jake, do you remember when that
14· · conversation occurred?
15· · · · A.· ·Sometime late '14, early '15.· No.· My
16· · bad.· Late '15, early '16.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you ever read the message
18· · or the conversation?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what that
21· · conversation was?
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.
24· · · · · · ·You may answer.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I cannot quote, but the

·2· · conversation was between Hanna and Tabitha's
·3· · mother.· Tabitha's mother had said something along
·4· · the lines --
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.
·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Something -- something about
·8· · custody, and Hanna had said --
12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· In response to what
13· · Tabitha's mother said that -- I can't remember if
14· · she used my name specifically or a he or they.· She
15· · used one of the language of it, and stated that if
16· · he would want custody of Sophia, it would be over
17· · my dead body, or something similar to that.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was everyone in your family
20· · aware of this conversation?
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, again, I'm going to have
23· · to hear how he would know these things, I think,
24· · first.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The basis of his knowledge.
·3· · So I'll sustain the objection.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Was this discussed with anybody else in
·6· · the family other than your mother?
·7· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure, if she had told me in
·8· · private, at least I was alone with her.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Specifically why was your mother
10· · monitoring those conversations of Tabitha and
11· · Tabitha's mom?
14· · objection.· The basis of his knowledge of why
15· · somebody else would be doing something, that seems
16· · to be preceding.
18· · · · Q.· ·Did you know that your mother was
19· · monitoring the conversations of Tabitha and
20· · Tabitha's mom?
21· · · · A.· ·Not Tabitha's mom.· I know she was
22· · monitoring Tabitha's.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you know why she was doing
24· · that?
YVer1f

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll overrule that.
·3· · I'll let him answer that question.· That's a yes or
·4· · a no.· Do you know why?
·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And how did you know?
·8· · · · A.· ·My mother told me.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why was she monitoring those
10· · conversations?
14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh.· She was monitoring
15· · Tabitha's personal messages to see if she was
16· · planning on trying to seek custody again of her
17· · son, my nephew Bulvine, and to see if she was still
18· · involved of some sort of drug use or potential
19· · harmful behavior to my nephew.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, Jake, sometime
22· · after seeing that conversation that you talked
23· · about between Tabitha's mother and Hanna, were
24· · there decisions made regarding what to do about
YVer1f
·1· · your concerns?

·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.· That's a yes-or-no
·4· · question.
·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Are you asking that
·6· · specifically in response to the message?
·8· · · · Q.· ·I said sometime after that message.· So
·9· · sometime after that, whether that was late 2015 or
10· · early 2016, did you make a decision regarding your
11· · concerns about Sophia?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what you
14· · decided?
15· · · · A.· ·To be frank, I guess, to the point, I had
16· · decided I felt I had no other choice other than to
17· · kill Hanna.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how that
19· · decision progressed?· When did you first think of
20· · it?· Were you the one who first thought of it?
21· · Tell us about that.
22· · · · A.· ·I was not the first.· My father first
23· · mentioned it to me.· He had said something along
24· · the lines that if something is not done, Sophia
YVer1f
·1· · will be -- I forget the exact word he used, but, in

·2· · a general aspect, I'm going to say harmed.· And I
·3· · at first -- I can't remember exact words I used.
·4· · But my first response was I had blowed up over the
·5· · matter and told him -- telling him that that was my
·6· · daughter's mother and I still loved her and I was
·7· · not going to let that happen, and I stomped off the
·8· · door -- stomped out the door.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall where that
10· · conversation with your father occurred?
11· · · · A.· ·That was in -- it was right inside the
12· · house of the Peterson home.· Right inside the front
13· · door.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was it just you and your father
15· · was a part of that conversation?
16· · · · A.· ·I think my mother was there too.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when he said something has to
18· · be done, was he specific about what that something
19· · was?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He had said that -- again, it's not
21· · a quote.· It may have been worded differently
22· · somehow.· He said something along the lines that
23· · the only option would be to kill her or kill Hanna.
24· · It was something like that.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Kill her or kill what?

·2· · · · A.· ·Hanna.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·One of the two.· I'm not sure which word.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall approximately when that
·6· · conversation occurred?
·7· · · · A.· ·Sometime in Januaryish of 2016.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And when he first suggested this to you,
·9· · you told him basically no way?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And stomped out?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did he say anything to you after you told
14· · him no way?
15· · · · A.· ·In the same moment or after, just in
16· · general?
17· · · · Q.· ·After that.
18· · · · A.· ·He had tried to talk to me about the
19· · matter, like, later on, not that same day; like,
20· · the near future.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did he say at that time?
22· · · · A.· ·I can't exactly remember the conversation.
23· · I was still hesitant because this was before my
24· · last -- I'm going to use the word argument with
YVer1f
·1· · Hanna about the subject when she had said we would
·2· · have to deal with it, but that was my tipping
·3· · point.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so once you had that last
·5· · argument with Hanna, what did you do?
·6· · · · A.· ·Oh.· I had went to my father and I told
·7· · him we'll have to do it.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember where you were when
·9· · you had that conversation?
10· · · · A.· ·Not specifically, no.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You don't remember if it was
12· · Peterson Road or some other location?
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.· Asked and
14· · answered, Your Honor.
16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What did he say?
18· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember if it was at Peterson Road
19· · or some other location?
20· · · · A.· ·I don't think it was at Peterson.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall approximately how
22· · much time had passed between the conversation you
23· · had with your father where you said "We'll have to
24· · do it" and when he first brought it up to you?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·A month or two.· Closer to two, maybe.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· After you told your father that you
·3· · agreed to do it, what plans were made?· Was it just
·4· · going to be Hanna?
·5· · · · · · ·Tell us about that.
·6· · · · A.· ·There was -- can you ask the question a
·7· · little more specifically?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · · · ·When you tell your father that you're
10· · agreeing to do this, to kill Hanna, do you guys
11· · then start making plans immediately?· If so, what
12· · were those plans?
13· · · · A.· ·I had made a suggestion.· I'm not sure if
14· · it was immediately.· It may have been -- his
15· · response was something of sorts of "I'll think of
16· · something."· I may have made an idea at that point.
17· · It may have been later on.
18· · · · · · ·My initial suggestion was to -- to kill
19· · Hanna as a -- I'm not sure the proper word was, but
20· · to make it look like Corey had done it and then
21· · committed suicide afterwards.· So my initial idea
22· · would have been Hanna and Corey only.
23· · · · · · ·He had said but that would not have worked
24· · for -- considering the location.· And if I killed
YVer1f
·1· · Hanna, if the slightest hint of the finger would

·2· · have been pointed at me, he said that Chris and
·3· · Frankie and Kenneth would all be bearing down on me
·4· · with a sniper up on the hill or some sort.
·5· · · · · · ·He said you cannot kill Hanna without
·6· · killing them as well.· And he said as much as it
·7· · pains him to say that, it would be the only way.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And why did it pain him to say that?
·9· · · · A.· ·Because him and Chris Senior had a
10· · friendship bond of, as he described it, closer than
11· · a brother.
12· · · · Q.· ·So once your idea was rejected, what
13· · became the plan?
14· · · · A.· ·Initially it would be -- I think that's
15· · the right word, maybe not.· Maybe ultimately.
16· · Ultimately the plan would have been that we would
17· · kill Hanna, Chris Senior, Frankie, and Kenneth.
18· · Dana would be in the same household, so -- I don't
19· · know what the right word would be, but not
20· · necessarily a problem, but just as in the
21· · residence.· Gary would be the same.· Hazel would be
22· · the same, and Christopher.· Because they all lived
23· · in the houses of which each one lived.
24· · · · Q.· ·So they were not necessarily the main
YVer1f
·1· · target, but you knew they would be there and --

·2· · · · A.· ·I think the proper word would be
·3· · witness -- witnesses, I think, would be the proper
·4· · word.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Once this decision was made, can
·6· · you tell me who was going to be involved in
·7· · carrying out this and what kinds of preparations
·8· · were made?
·9· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat the question a little more
10· · specifically?
11· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· After you and your dad decided that
12· · you were, in fact, going to kill not only Hanna,
13· · but Chris and Kenneth and Frankie and then any
14· · individual that was present, what kinds of plans
15· · were made to make that happen?
16· · · · A.· ·My father had said that the timing and
17· · surrounding events of the homicide he would take
18· · care of, and I was to obtain a vehicle that was not
19· · our own and to prep firearms with silencers.
20· · · · Q.· ·He indicated that you should obtain a
21· · vehicle not your own?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was going to be the
24· · purpose of that vehicle?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Would you repeat that one more time,

·2· · please?
·3· · · · Q.· ·What was going to be the purpose of that
·4· · vehicle?
·5· · · · · · ·Why did he want you to get a vehicle not
·6· · your own?
·7· · · · A.· ·To use as our method to get from our
·8· · location to their location without it looking like
·9· · one of our own personal vehicles.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that you were
11· · also tasked with preparing firearms with silencers?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, what firearms
14· · were you supposed to use?
15· · · · A.· ·Initially I was going to use a Ruger 1022
16· · of mine, a Beretta 92 of my father's, and an SKS
17· · that belonged to my brother.
18· · · · · · ·But in my process of trial and error, I
19· · destroyed the 1022 and the Beretta was a
20· · malfunction that didn't work, so I opted at a last
21· · effort to use a 1911 that I had and a Glock .40
22· · that my father had.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you initially tried to fashion a
24· · silencer for a Ruger 1022 that belonged to you?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And you said it was destroyed.· Are you
·3· · talking about the weapon itself?
·4· · · · A.· ·The weapon itself, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did it get destroyed?
·6· · · · A.· ·Considering the weapon was -- the proper
·7· · word is blue.· Not blue, but the paint of the
·8· · firearm is black.· I did not know that the firearm
·9· · actually was made of aluminum.· And when I had
10· · pursued it to remove the barrel, I was using a very
11· · large specialty pipe wrench, per se.· I'm not sure
12· · what the proper word is.· It's like a pipe wrench.
13· · And as I was trying to use it to twist the barrel,
14· · I ended up -- instead of twisting the barrel off, I
15· · broke the action in half beyond repair.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at that time can you tell us
17· · what you were trying to make a silencer from?· What
18· · materials were you using?
19· · · · A.· ·I was trying to fashion a silencer from
20· · two different kind of flashlights.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What different kinds of flashlight?
22· · · · A.· ·The first was an off-brand that I had
23· · ordered from Amazon, I think, and the second was a
24· · Maglite.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you trying -- did you use
·2· · both of those on the Ruger 1022, or what?
·3· · · · A.· ·The first one didn't even make it to the
·4· · point of making a silencer because it was, well,
·5· · generic and it didn't get past the very first
·6· · phase, which is -- the front end was just too thin
·7· · of aluminum and it broke right off.
·8· · · · · · ·As far as the Maglite part, when I made
·9· · it -- I'm sorry.· My brain is -- I've already
10· · forgotten your question.
11· · · · · · ·Can you repeat the question one more time?
12· · · · Q.· ·Yep.· I'll kind of summarize.
13· · · · · · ·So you said that because the first
14· · flashlight was a generic one, are you talking about
15· · one of the Greatlites?
16· · · · A.· ·That sounds right.· Correct.
17· · · · Q.· ·That you ordered from Amazon?
18· · · · A.· ·They were blue; correct?· I remember it
19· · being blue.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But that did not work very well
21· · because the aluminum was very thin?
22· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· It didn't get past the -- it didn't
23· · get to be able to even start to make a silencer.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you used the Maglite, did you
YVer1f
·1· · use that on the Ruger 1022 or on the Beretta?

·2· · · · A.· ·Oh, I used it on the Beretta.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·It -- it got to the final stage of
·5· · construction to test-firing point and it
·6· · malfunctioned and shot the housing -- the housing
·7· · from the barrel of the weapon and destroyed all the
·8· · -- so it was beyond repair.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall what you did with any of
10· · these items, your -- the Ruger 1022 that broke, the
11· · initial flashlight that didn't work, the Maglite
12· · suppressor that failed?
13· · · · A.· ·All those items you just named minus the
14· · Maglite was just throwed in the dumpster.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
16· · · · A.· ·And as far as the Maglite, I had, in
17· · frustration, tossed it into our burn barrel and
18· · just -- the barrel we used to burn trash.· And
19· · after it was all burned, we put it in the dumpster.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that then you
21· · went on to a 1911 that you owned; correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall specifically what that
24· · weapon was?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·It was a Colt 1911 .22.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that there was a
·3· · .40 Glock also that belonged to your father;
·4· · correct?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And how did you obtain the .40 Glock?
·7· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.· I -- if I remember
·8· · correctly -- well, hold on.· How I obtained it?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
10· · · · A.· ·Okay.· My father brought it down to me.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And before I get away from this,
12· · the Beretta, what happened to the Beretta itself?
13· · · · A.· ·The Beretta's barrel was -- I had used to
14· · weld a fitting tube so it was beyond repair, but
15· · the firearm itself was not beyond repair.· So I had
16· · given the Beretta to my father.· And, to my
17· · knowledge, I believe he bought a new barrel for it
18· · at a future time.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you aware whether or not
20· · there were also grips purchased for that Beretta?
21· · · · A.· ·No, ma'am.
22· · · · Q.· ·So once you got the 1911 and the
23· · .40 Glock, what did you do?
24· · · · A.· ·I had decided at that point to use
YVer1f
·1· · standard oil or fuel filters for a silencer, and I

·2· · had proceeded to weld pipefitting the correct
·3· · thread pattern to the front of the barrel of the
·4· · SKS.· And I had already obtained an accessory end
·5· · for the 1911 for other reasons and had welded a
·6· · fitting to that to make the filter onto the front
·7· · of it.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And if you can just tell us, how do
·9· · you make a suppressor out of an oil or a fuel
10· · filter?
11· · · · A.· ·It initially needs no modification other
12· · than attaching it to the front of the weapon.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Basically screws on or spins on?
14· · · · A.· ·It does screw on, but because it is
15· · standard pipefitting, you would have -- you would
16· · have to modify somehow a fitting of some sort, a
17· · thread pattern to the barrel of the weapon you
18· · attached it to.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that's what you did for both
20· · the 1911 and the SKS?
21· · · · A.· ·Correct.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
23· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit HH-2 was thereupon marked
24· · for identification.)
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to hand you what's been marked
·3· · as State's Exhibit HH-2, and it will likely show up
·4· · on the screen in front of you too, if that --
·5· · · · · · ·It should be here --
·6· · · · A.· ·I can see it.
·7· · · · Q.· ·-- in front of you.
·8· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I see it.· This is just bigger.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· First of all, when
10· · looking at that list, can you tell us if you
11· · recognize that list?
12· · · · A.· ·I do.
13· · · · Q.· ·And what do you recognize that as?
14· · · · A.· ·It was a list I had composed on my cell
15· · phone of various firearms at that particular date
16· · that we owned.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall what that date
18· · was?
19· · · · A.· ·It says the last time I modified it was
20· · May 1st, 2015.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, is that 1911
22· · .22 on there listed as belonging to you?
23· · · · A.· ·It is.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is the SKS on that list listed
YVer1f
·1· · as to George?
·2· · · · A.· ·It is.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Is there a .40 Glock on there?
·4· · · · A.· ·There is not.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you aware of when your
·6· · father obtained that gun for himself at all?
·7· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But the guns listed there and --
·9· · you have each member of your family's name there
10· · with a gun or more listed underneath their name;
11· · correct?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We object to that, Judge.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm sorry?
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We object.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis is?
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Can we approach?
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
20· · · · · · ·(Counsel approached the bench and the
21· · following proceedings were had before the Court,
22· · out of the hearing of the jury.)
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, once again we're
24· · getting into weapons not used in the crime.· Under
YVer1f
·1· · Thomas, this is improper.

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· This is specifically the gun
·3· · list, the gun list that George is in recordings
·4· · referred to as a wish list and trying to convince
·5· · us that it's a wish list and not actually weapons
·6· · that were owned.· And, again, the reason he does
·7· · that is because the SKS is listed as belonging to
·8· · him, so --
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Has he said they own the guns
10· · or just a gun list at this point?
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That was my next question.
12· · He did already say, yes, they owned them.
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.· But many other weapons
14· · on this list for each family member that are not
15· · involved in this case.· So under Thomas, it's
16· · improper to bring in weapons that are not used in
17· · the crimes themselves.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What's the State's position
19· · that some of the guns were involved and that they
20· · had denied ownership?· Is that the point?
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overrule the objection.
23· · · · · · ·(Counsel returned to counsel table and the
24· · proceedings were resumed in the hearing of the jury
YVer1f
·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The objection will be
·3· · overruled.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And, again, are those weapons that are
·6· · listed there -- they were owned at that time in, I
·7· · believe you said, May of 2015 when it was last
·8· · modified; is that correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
11· · · · · · ·Jake, do you recall what items did you
12· · purchase or did you purchase any items in order to
13· · try to fashion those silencers?· Specifically the
14· · Maglite silencer or the other silencer that you
15· · tried to make out of those generic flashlights?
16· · · · A.· ·I had purchased drill bits, tap and dies.
17· · Do you need me to explain what a tap and die is?
18· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
19· · · · A.· ·A tap is sort of like a drill bit.· It's
20· · used after a hole has already been drilled, and you
21· · run a tap through the hole, which causes the tap to
22· · fit, such as would be done at a factory, but by
23· · hand.· And a die is the opposite.· So instead of
24· · through a hole, they would thread a rod.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you were familiar with those

·2· · kind of tools prior to this; is that fair?
·3· · · · A.· ·Familiar with how to use them.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · A.· ·But I've never had experience with them.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at some point, did you -- well,
·7· · do you know what a solvent catcher is?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And what is that?
10· · · · A.· ·I have seen solvent catchers, per se, on
11· · the Internet, which was basically a video how to
12· · make a solvent catcher out of a Maglite without
13· · actually calling it a silencer.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· A solvent catcher can be made into
15· · a silencer is what you're saying?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.· The only thing different would be
17· · the final hole for the port.
18· · · · Q.· ·The final hole what?
19· · · · A.· ·For the port.· The final exit hole.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · A.· ·Everything else would be the same.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us -- so you
23· · bought drill bits, a tap and die.· What else did
24· · you buy?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Are we still specifically talking about

·2· · for tooling to make the silencers?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Out of the flashlight or Maglite.
·4· · · · A.· ·Of course, I did buy the lights, the
·5· · flashlights.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·7· · · · A.· ·And the pipefitting.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And what?
·9· · · · A.· ·The pipefittings.
10· · · · Q.· ·Pipefitting?
11· · · · A.· ·To weld to the firearms.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · A.· ·Oh, wait.· No.· We're talking about the
14· · aluminum flashlight.· That's the filters.· I cannot
15· · recall anything else.
16· · · · Q.· ·You bought drill bits.· What were you
17· · drilling?
18· · · · A.· ·The hole of the -- so the bits would be
19· · the size, the diameter of the caliber of which I
20· · was using.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was there anything that was
22· · used in the middle of that for a baffle?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to sustain the

·2· · objection.· It sounds like a leading question.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Was there anything inside of the
·5· · flashlight?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And what was that?
·8· · · · A.· ·I had used freeze plugs.· I had used
·9· · freeze plugs for the baffling system.
10· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit BBB-1 was thereupon
11· · marked for identification.)
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Jake, I'm going to show you what's
14· · been marked as State's Exhibit BBB-1.
15· · · · · · ·Are you able to see that?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And referring your attention to or
18· · directing your attention to the February 26, 2016,
19· · entry, the Tactical Incorporated, Tactical
20· · Innovations.· Do you see that?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.· February 26th, yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what that is?
23· · · · A.· ·That is the barrel adapter to mount an
24· · accessory on the front of the 1911.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And then February 28th, that item in the

·2· · -- the first one on the top left?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· A freeze plug.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall making a purchase
·5· · of those at 0'Riley Auto Parts?
·6· · · · A.· ·I recall making the purchase.· I do not
·7· · recall which of the three auto parts stores I had
·8· · made the purchase at.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you did purchase them in person
10· · as opposed to online?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And was it more than one freeze plug?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And how do they come packaged?
15· · · · A.· ·You can order them.· You order them or you
16· · buy them.· If they don't have them on hand, they'll
17· · order them in.· You can buy them in a box or you
18· · can buy them individually.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know how many are in a
20· · box, approximately?
21· · · · A.· ·I really couldn't say.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· February 29th, those bottom middle
23· · two items there.
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that --

·2· · Chevy1971diesel@hotmail, is that your email account
·3· · or somebody else's?
·4· · · · A.· ·That is mine.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are those the two flashlights
·6· · that you purchased?
·7· · · · A.· ·Again, I don't remember -- I remember them
·8· · being blue, but that looks about like the ones I
·9· · had bought.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And February 29th of 2016, again,
11· · we see that Chevy1971diesel@hotmail.
12· · · · · · ·Can you tell us what those items are next
13· · to the freeze plugs on the top?
14· · · · A.· ·Those are drill bits.
15· · · · Q.· ·And are those the drill bits that you
16· · purchased?· Do you recall?
17· · · · A.· ·I do not see the size of the drill bits,
18· · but they look about like the ones I ordered.
19· · · · Q.· ·And can you describe the length of those?
20· · · · A.· ·A foot or so --
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
22· · · · A.· ·-- long.
23· · · · Q.· ·And why are they so long?· Or why do they
24· · need to be so long?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·The initial idea or, I guess, the logical

·2· · idea of it if -- in a stationary drill would be to
·3· · make a straight hole through multiple individual
·4· · layers.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And the individual layers being
·6· · what?
·7· · · · A.· ·The freeze plugs.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how do you decide what size of
·9· · drill bit you need?
10· · · · A.· ·Well, based off the circumference of the
11· · caliber that you're using.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall what size those
13· · drill bits were?
14· · · · A.· ·For the .22 was quarter inch and for the
15· · Beretta a 3/8s.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then the March 1st purchase in
17· · the upper right-hand corner?
18· · · · A.· ·That's the die.
19· · · · Q.· ·That you already told us about?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that indicated that it was a
22· · PayPal transaction with North Bay Cutting Tools.
23· · Did you make that purchase?
24· · · · A.· ·I did.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And then the last item on that page at the
·2· · bottom, also on March 1st, from a Napa Trading
·3· · Company, what is that item?
·4· · · · A.· ·That is a tap.
·5· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit BBB-2 was thereupon
·6· · marked for identification.)
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then showing you what's been
·9· · marked as State's Exhibit BBB-2.· And just
10· · directing your attention to the first two items,
11· · the one on top and the one on bottom, the one on
12· · top from Drills and Cutters order.
13· · · · A.· ·That's a drill bit.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what the size
15· · on that is?
16· · · · A.· ·A 27/64.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what would that be used for?
18· · · · A.· ·That would be -- if memory serves, I think
19· · that is the one I used as -- for the 9mm, but I
20· · thought it was a 3/8.· The 27/46 would be something
21· · similar to that size.
22· · · · Q.· ·And then on the bottom there, the
23· · March 2nd, the same date, what is -- what are
24· · those?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·That is the item of which to make a

·2· · solvent catcher or silencer out of a flashlight.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, were you able to
·4· · fashion silencers on the 1911 and the SKS using oil
·5· · filters?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were there other items that you
·8· · purchased in regards to preparing to commit these
·9· · murders?
10· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Can you repeat that question?
11· · · · Q.· ·Were there other items that were purchased
12· · in preparation for these murders?
13· · · · · · ·Well, let me back you up first.· You
14· · talked about fashioning silencers for various
15· · weapons and having a couple that failed and then
16· · what you resorted to as a result of those failures.
17· · · · · · ·You also indicated that you were
18· · instructed to get a vehicle not your own.· Can you
19· · tell us, did you, in fact, get a vehicle?
20· · · · A.· ·I did.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who did you get that vehicle
22· · from?
23· · · · A.· ·It was purchased from my great uncle Todd.
24· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us who was present when
YVer1f
·1· · you purchased that vehicle from your great uncle

·2· · Todd?
·3· · · · A.· ·Uncle Todd, I think my uncle Gus was
·4· · there, myself, and my brother.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall where you were?
·6· · · · A.· ·Just inside my driveway at Peterson.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall how much money was paid
·8· · for that vehicle?
·9· · · · A.· ·Something between 1500 and 2,000.
10· · Specifically I think he started at 2,000 and we
11· · jewed him to 1500.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What kind of vehicle was it?
13· · · · A.· ·It was an early 2000 model or late '90
14· · model Chevy pickup.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, do you recall
16· · when you purchased that in relation to the murders?
17· · · · A.· ·I think it was somewhere within the first
18· · three weeks of April.· It could have been early,
19· · like, 1st, 2nd area, or it could have been after
20· · the 14th.· I'm not sure.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In the same month as the murders;
22· · correct?
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm going to overrule
YVer1f
·1· · the objection and let him answer it.

·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Does that mean I answer it?
·4· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · A.· ·I think so.· It wasn't --
·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you know when the homicides were
·7· · committed?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And when were they?
10· · · · A.· ·Did you say when or where?
11· · · · Q.· ·When.
12· · · · A.· ·It was April 22nd, 2016.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't know -- Counsel, it's
14· · 11:30.· I don't know if you want to break now or go
15· · on for another lunch break, or how do you wish to
16· · do that?
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· We can take a break.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Can we approach, Judge?
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I personally don't
24· · care.· I think we should just ask the jury if they
YVer1f
·1· · want a break or how long.

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yeah.· If they want to go a
·3· · half hour to noon, because that will be two hours.
·4· · I mean, I don't care if you want to give the jury a
·5· · choice or keep going until noon and/or take a lunch
·6· · break and go until 12:30.· I don't know.· Whatever
·7· · your thoughts are, Your Honor.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll ask --
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· They might not be unanimous,
10· · I guess.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll ask them.· We won't have
12· · anonymity, I'm sure.
15· · as follows.)
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We have a couple of choices,
17· · ladies and gentlemen.· We could break now for lunch
18· · early or we could go on until approximately noon
19· · and break then.
20· · · · · · ·I don't know if somebody has a need right
21· · now to -- a bathroom need right now.· I'm seeing
22· · some nodding of heads, so there's some that do.
23· · · · · · ·So, in view of that, I think probably our
24· · best bet would be just to recess early for lunch.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·We will recess early for lunch.· You will

·2· · need to be back at the jury room at 12:30.· That's
·3· · an hour, a little bit more than an hour.
·4· · · · · · ·While you are on break, you're not to
·5· · discuss this case among yourselves or with anyone
·6· · else.· You're not to permit anyone to discuss this
·7· · case with you or in your presence.· You're not to
·8· · form or express an opinion concerning this case
·9· · until it's finally submitted to you for
10· · deliberation and verdict.· You are to do no
11· · research at all concerning this case either as to
12· · the facts or as to the law or any source at all.
13· · You're not to read, view, or listen to any reports
14· · or account of this case from any source at all.
15· · You're to have no contact with any of the
16· · participants in the case including parties,
17· · counsel, or witnesses.
18· · · · · · ·Does counsel for either side have anything
19· · you wish to put on the record before we recess?
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No, Judge.· Thank you.
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· No, Your Honor.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are in recess until 12:30.
23· · At that time, jurors are to assemble at the jury
24· · room to be brought up by court personnel.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·(Jury exited the courtroom.)

·2· · · · · · ·(A recess was taken, after which the
·3· · proceedings were resumed as follows.)
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is counsel for each side ready
·5· · for the jury to be brought up?
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
·8· · · · · · ·(Jury returned to the courtroom.)
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The State of Ohio may resume
10· · its questioning of the witness.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You're welcome.
14· · · · Q.· ·Hello.
15· · · · A.· ·Hi.
16· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to ask --
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Can you pull up GG-6?
18· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit GG-6 was thereupon marked
21· · · · Q.· ·Just going to follow up from a few
22· · questions from this morning.
23· · · · · · ·Okay.· On the screen in front of you is
24· · State's Exhibit GG-6.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Are you able to read that?

·2· · · · A.· ·Huh?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Are you able to read that?
·4· · · · A.· ·The whole thing?
·5· · · · Q.· ·I mean, you don't need to read it out
·6· · loud.
·7· · · · A.· ·Oh.· Oh.
·8· · · · Q.· ·But are you able to see the words clearly?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, I guess, focusing your
11· · attention to the center of that where it starts
12· · out, "that's good.· I'm glad to see you're doing
13· · good."
14· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I see.
15· · · · Q.· ·If you can just read that to yourself, and
16· · the remaining two dialogue boxes.
17· · · · A.· ·Okay.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And does that conversation look
19· · familiar to you?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that the conversation you
22· · were talking about earlier that happened sometime
23· · towards the end of 2015 or the beginning of 2016?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· We were talking about

·2· · other items that were purchased in preparation or
·3· · other things that were done in preparation of these
·4· · homicides.
·5· · · · · · ·Can you tell us, are you aware as to
·6· · whether or not a signal jammer was purchased?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And what is a signal jammer?
·9· · · · A.· ·Jams signals such as radio wave, cell
10· · phones, radios.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · A.· ·Et cetera.
13· · · · Q.· ·And whose idea was it to buy that?
14· · · · A.· ·I think it was Dad's.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know who purchased that
16· · item?
17· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure exactly who purchased it.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You did not purchase it?
19· · · · A.· ·No.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Going to show you State's
21· · Exhibit BBB-2.
22· · · · · · ·Okay.· And focusing your attention in the
23· · item in the upper right-hand corner of that page
24· · dated March 16th of 2016.· Do you recognize that
YVer1f
·1· · item?
·2· · · · A.· ·You say the upper right corner?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what do you recognize that as?
·6· · · · A.· ·A signal jammer.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, did you see
·8· · that item once it was purchased?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where did you see it?
11· · · · A.· ·I tested to make sure it worked.
12· · · · Q.· ·How did you test it to make sure it
13· · worked?
14· · · · A.· ·I turned it on to see if I could make a
15· · phone call.· I could not.
16· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall when that would have
17· · been?
18· · · · A.· ·After it was purchased; before the
19· · homicide.
20· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· And do you recall where you were
21· · when you tested that, if anybody else was with you?
22· · · · A.· ·I tested it at my -- inside my house,
23· · Peterson.· I know Dad was there, maybe -- I mean,
24· · like, inside me testing it.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Right.

·2· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure if anybody else was.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you become aware of
·4· · this item if you did not purchase it?
·5· · · · A.· ·My Dad brought it down.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Brought it down from?
·7· · · · A.· ·I mean, he was staying at my grandmother's
·8· · at the time, so I assume he brought it down from my
·9· · grandmother's.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And what was that item
11· · intended to be -- what relation did that have to
12· · the homicides, that item?
13· · · · A.· ·To prevent a possibility of an outgoing
14· · phone call to 911.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you also test -- I believe you
16· · indicated that you did not fashion a silencer for
17· · the .40 Glock; is that correct?
18· · · · · · ·Or maybe you didn't say that.· You just
19· · told us the ones you did.
20· · · · · · ·Did you fashion a silencer for the
21· · .40 Glock?
22· · · · A.· ·No, I did not.
23· · · · Q.· ·And why not?
24· · · · A.· ·It was a last-minute choice and did not
YVer1f
·1· · have an extended barrel so I could not attach any

·2· · item to the front of the barrel.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And because of that, did you do anything
·4· · to determine the volume of noise that it would
·5· · produce when fired within a structure?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do?
·8· · · · A.· ·I test-fired the .40 Glock inside our
·9· · hunting cabin on the property.· It's only 50 feet
10· · or so from the actual main structure of the house.
11· · With me inside the cabin, my father inside the door
12· · of the house, and I fired the weapon inside of the
13· · cabin to see if he could hear it, and he could not.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, were there
15· · also shoes purchased in order to use on the night
16· · of the homicides?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us who purchased those
19· · shoes?
20· · · · A.· ·My mother.
21· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us where she purchased
22· · them from?
23· · · · A.· ·Walmart.
24· · · · Q.· ·And who did she buy them for?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Myself and my brother.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Were you with her when she bought them?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And where were you?
·5· · · · A.· ·I was inside our vehicle.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So did you go into the store with
·7· · her or were you out in the car?
·8· · · · A.· ·In the car.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who else was in the car with
10· · you?
11· · · · A.· ·My daughter, my nephew, my brother.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what instruction, if any, did
13· · you give her when she bought those shoes?
14· · · · A.· ·Along the lines -- this is not a quote. I
15· · told her to buy two size 10 tennis shoes.· I think
16· · I used the word ugly tennis shoes, something of
17· · that sort.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did she buy ugly tennis shoes?
19· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that question?
20· · · · Q.· ·Did she buy ugly tennis shoes that day?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes, she did.
22· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit EEE-2 was thereupon
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And I'm going to hand you what's been

·2· · marked as EEE-2.
·3· · · · · · ·Do you recognize these shoes?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And what do you recognize those as?
·6· · · · A.· ·Slightly different in color, but those are
·7· · the shoes she had bought.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Not the shoes that she bought, but --
·9· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
10· · · · Q.· ·-- same -- similar -- same brand, same
11· · type of shoe?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If you can just make sure you're
14· · close to that mike.
15· · · · A.· ·That's -- I scooted over.· I noticed it
16· · wasn't echoing.
17· · · · Q.· ·Referring you to BBB-2 again.· In the
18· · center of that on the top is a March 3rd purchase
19· · of a home surveillance kit along with a three-year
20· · service plan.
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall that purchase?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And we heard some information about
YVer1f
·1· · potentially first George's credit card trying to be

·2· · used and then your credit card being used to
·3· · purchase that.
·4· · · · · · ·Do you have a recollection of that?
·5· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat what you just said?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Were you present for the purchase of this
·7· · item?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I personally bought it.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you initially try to use
10· · George's credit card and then use yours instead?
11· · · · A.· ·I don't recall that.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And the item immediately below
13· · that, March 16, 2016, were you aware of this
14· · purchase on that date?
15· · · · A.· ·Say that one more time.
16· · · · Q.· ·The item right below that --
17· · · · A.· ·Oh.
18· · · · Q.· ·-- surveillance system, it's indicated a
19· · personal multi bug detector purchased on March 16,
20· · 2016.
21· · · · · · ·Were you aware of that purchase on that
22· · date?
23· · · · A.· ·No, I was not.
24· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit BBB-3 was thereupon
YVer1f

·3· · · · Q.· ·And then State's Exhibit BBB-3.
·4· · · · · · ·Do you see in the upper left-hand corner
·5· · there a March 17th purchase from Amazon using your
·6· · hotmail account.
·7· · · · A.· ·The tap and die?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · A.· ·What was the question again?
10· · · · Q.· ·What is -- what was that for?
11· · · · · · ·And it does have the measurements on
12· · there, if that's helpful.
13· · · · A.· ·Oh, that is the thread pattern for the
14· · solvent catcher adapter for the Maglite.· And I had
15· · bought those to see if I could fashion -- see if I
16· · could thread the barrel on the Beretta.· They would
17· · screw directly on.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then also on that same page
19· · down at the bottom you'll see three items from
20· · April 3rd of 2016.
21· · · · A.· ·Which one?
22· · · · Q.· ·The April 3rd on the both, the middle
23· · purchase on the bottom.
24· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And can you -- do you recognize that

·2· · purchase?
·3· · · · A.· ·I recognize the net on the right-hand side
·4· · of the picture.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·6· · · · A.· ·I don't recognize the brass catcher on the
·7· · left.
·8· · · · Q.· ·So that was not an item that you
·9· · purchased?
10· · · · A.· ·No.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And it indicates that your Bass Pro
12· · Shop rewards card was used.· Again, would that be
13· · common, even if you weren't the one purchasing
14· · those items?· If something was going to be
15· · purchased from Bass Pro, would your card be used?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And then, of course, the April 7th is just
18· · the shoe purchase.· But then there's a purchase for
19· · a mask on April 9th of 2016, a Captain America
20· · winter soldier mask.
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell who that was purchased for?
23· · · · A.· ·I purchased that for my brother.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In making these plans -- well, in
YVer1f
·1· · addition to the purchases that we've seen so far,

·2· · did you, your mother, and George execute certain
·3· · documents in advance of the homicides or ahead --
·4· · before the homicides?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, specifically, were those
·7· · relating to custody of your children should
·8· · anything happen to you?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And the one regarding Hanna -- was there
11· · one that allegedly had Hanna's signature on it?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Was that, in fact, Hanna's signature?
14· · · · A.· ·No.
15· · · · Q.· ·Who signed that for her?
16· · · · A.· ·My mother.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was that document referencing
18· · custody of Sophia if something should happen to
19· · Hanna?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And did you and George sign the other two
22· · documents?· You signed yours and George signed his?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit CC-295A was thereupon

·4· · · · Q.· ·I am first going to hand you what's been
·5· · marked as CC-295A.· It is a two-page document
·6· · that's clipped together.
·7· · · · · · ·Do you recognize that document?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
10· · · · A.· ·That is the -- the custody document you
11· · were just speaking of.
12· · · · Q.· ·And that one is referenced -- that one has
13· · Hanna's signature that your mother placed on that
14· · document; correct?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit CC-295B was thereupon
19· · · · Q.· ·And then CC-295B.· Again, another two-page
20· · document.· If you could just look at that and tell
21· · me if you recognize that.
22· · · · A.· ·I do.
24· · · · A.· ·That is the other document, custody, which
YVer1f
·1· · I signed.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit CC-295C was thereupon
·6· · · · Q.· ·And then State's Exhibit CC-295C.· If you
·7· · could tell me if you recognize that.
·8· · · · A.· ·I did not actually look -- like, pick up
·9· · the document.· It does look like the one that was
10· · on the table beside mine.
11· · · · Q.· ·And do you recognize your brother's
12· · signature?
13· · · · A.· ·I do.
14· · · · Q.· ·Does that appear to be his signature?
15· · · · A.· ·It does.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you were present when he signed
17· · that; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure if I was standing there
19· · observing.· I was in the same room, though.
20· · · · Q.· ·So you were all three -- your mother, your
21· · brother and you, all three, in the same room?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember what room it was?
24· · · · A.· ·I -- the kitchen.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At Peterson Road or some other --

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Peterson Road.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, specifically, regarding
·4· · Hanna's -- the document that your mother placed the
·5· · signature of Hanna on, who does that say Sophia
·6· · would go to should anything happen to Hanna?
·7· · · · A.· ·Myself.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And regarding your document that you
·9· · signed, who would your daughter go to if something
10· · happened to you?
11· · · · A.· ·My mother.
12· · · · Q.· ·And, similarly, as far as George goes, who
13· · would Bulvine go to if something were to happen to
14· · George?
18· · · · Q.· ·You can answer that.
19· · · · A.· ·Oh.· I had trouble hearing what he said.
20· · · · · · ·Oh, I didn't know what the question was.
21· · · · · · ·Yes.· It was reference that my nephew
22· · would go to my mother.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, were those
24· · executed because of the fact that you were going to
YVer1f
·1· · be committing these homicides?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Did you also make some modifications to
·4· · the truck that you had purchased from Uncle -- from
·5· · your great uncle Todd?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what the first
·8· · modification was?
·9· · · · A.· ·I had modified the lighting to where you
10· · could turn the taillights -- taillights of the
11· · vehicle off from inside of the cabin with a toggle
12· · switch.
13· · · · Q.· ·And why did you want to do that?
14· · · · A.· ·So you would not see the lights illuminate
15· · if you hit the brake or -- and so you could have
16· · headlights on without having taillights on.
17· · · · Q.· ·And what -- was the purpose for that for
18· · the purposes of the homicides?
19· · · · A.· ·The idea would have been if, say, I had
20· · the headlights off and was driving X amount of
21· · speed, X amount of distance, and if I would have
22· · touched the brakes, then the taillights would not
23· · have illuminated for a brake if all the other
24· · lights was off.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were you trying to -- how

·2· · did you perceive that would help you in committing
·3· · these offenses?
·4· · · · A.· ·So the vehicle could be more stealth.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you keep that modification?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Why not?
·8· · · · A.· ·My dad told me that it would be a stupid
·9· · idea; it was unnecessary.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, did you and George
11· · dye your hair the week of the homicides?
12· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I think it was the week before.
13· · Mostly, yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And what color did you dye your hair?
15· · · · A.· ·Supposed to be brown.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·It turned out black.
18· · · · Q.· ·And was that true for both of you?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And you specifically, why were you -- why
21· · did you dye your hair?
22· · · · A.· ·Say it again.
23· · · · Q.· ·Why did you dye your hair?
24· · · · A.· ·My hair lightens to a dark blond in
YVer1f
·1· · summertime, so I wanted to dye it to where it was a

·2· · darker color, a dark brown, so I could have the
·3· · color and stylist of the main character in The
·4· · Walking Dead.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And who is that character?
·6· · · · A.· ·The character's named Daryl Dixon.· The
·7· · actor's name is Norman Reedus.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was your intent, to look
·9· · like him?
10· · · · A.· ·Well --
11· · · · Q.· ·Your hair look like his?
12· · · · A.· ·His hair, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Sorry.
14· · · · · · ·I talked to you about some of the plans
15· · that you made, and you indicated that your dad was
16· · taking care of kind of the planning of the event of
17· · the -- of what night it would be rather, and you
18· · were making some purchases.· And obviously your
19· · mother made some purchases as well.
20· · · · · · ·Was George also going to participate in --
21· · in that night?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us how it was decided which
24· · night this would occur?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·It was at my father's discretion, but the

·2· · little I do know had to do with the weather, such
·3· · as overcast.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So he wanted it to be on an
·5· · overcast night?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And why was that?
·8· · · · A.· ·To my knowledge, because the satellites
·9· · cannot video through an overcasted sky of some
10· · sorts.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us -- you knew
12· · that Hanna was with child; correct?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, was there some plan
15· · to wait until she had given birth to that child --
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·-- or not?· Yes?· Okay.
18· · · · · · ·And at some point during these recordings
19· · that you were making when you would drop off and
20· · pick up Sophia, you talked to Hanna about --
21· · recommended that she should get induced.
22· · · · · · ·Did that have anything to do with the
23· · homicides at all?
24· · · · A.· ·Not to my memory, no.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Speaking of her child, did you think that

·2· · the child could be yours?
·3· · · · A.· ·Did I think that --
·4· · · · Q.· ·The child that Hanna was pregnant with.
·5· · · · A.· ·Could be my biological child?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you want her to be?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, did you become
11· · aware of -- kind of what the plan was for that
12· · night as far as how you were going to get up there,
13· · who the first person was that you were going -- the
14· · first house you were going to go to and kind of
15· · what the story was as far as justifying your
16· · presence?· Maybe not yours, but your dad's.
17· · · · A.· ·On the pending of your question, can you
18· · be more specific in describing that?
19· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· And let me -- let me ask you
20· · another question first.
21· · · · · · ·Okay.· Before we get -- take that next
22· · step, did you make any other modifications to that
23· · truck that you had purchased from Uncle Todd?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us what modifications you

·2· · made?
·3· · · · A.· ·I had put a false bedcover on it.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me what you mean by a false
·5· · bedcover?
·6· · · · A.· ·I had made a plywood cover that set just
·7· · below the bed rails to stack hay or straw or
·8· · something on top of the vehicle to make it look
·9· · like the bed was fully loaded with hay.
10· · · · Q.· ·And what was the purpose of making that
11· · false bed?
12· · · · A.· ·It was to have a compartment underneath
13· · the hay to where myself and my brother could hide
14· · in it while my dad drove to Chris's property.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, first of all,
16· · where on your property -- did you make that
17· · modification at Peterson Road?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us where on the property
20· · you made that modification?
21· · · · A.· ·In our new barn.
22· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, at that time were the
23· · stalls yet built in the interior of that barn?
24· · · · A.· ·Only the posts.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · A.· ·No.· Maybe not.· Maybe the posts, maybe
·3· · not.· It may have been open.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how you built
·5· · that false bed?
·6· · · · A.· ·I used a 2x4 and plywood.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what exactly did you do with
·8· · the 2x4 and the plywood?
·9· · · · A.· ·I used the 2x4 as a rail that supports the
10· · tie-down eyelets inside the bed -- bed rail and
11· · screwed a 4x8 sheet of plywood on top of those.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did anybody help you with that,
13· · making that false bed?
14· · · · A.· ·My brother participated.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was he aware of why this false
16· · bed was being built in that truck?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us whose idea that
19· · was to build that false bed?
20· · · · A.· ·My father's.
21· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit NNN-11 was thereupon
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to show you what's been
YVer1f
·1· · marked as NNN-11, and just ask you, first of all,

·2· · do you recognize that truck?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yesish.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · A.· ·I remember it being a Chevrolet.
·6· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit NNN-13 was thereupon
·9· · · · Q.· ·I will show you NNN-13.
10· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Digital?
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· The digital number is 6258.
12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What was your question?
14· · · · Q.· ·My question is, do you -- can you tell us
15· · where those eyelets are that you're referring to?
16· · · · A.· ·The arrow -- right there in the middle the
17· · top area.· Put your arrow by the rust spot.· Up.
18· · Up.· Right there.· Yeah.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So -- I will give a close-up here
20· · of NNN-14.
21· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit NNN-14 was thereupon
23· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Digital?
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· 6259.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·And so when you say you did a 2x4 on top
·3· · of that and then screwed the plywood into it, can
·4· · you tell us if the 2x4 was --
·5· · · · A.· ·Vertical?
·6· · · · Q.· ·It was vertical?
·7· · · · A.· ·It was vertical.· 4 being vertical, 2
·8· · being down.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you said you screwed the
10· · plywood into that?
11· · · · A.· ·On the top side, yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·On the top side.· Okay.
13· · · · · · ·Just to make a larger compartment in the
14· · bed for you and your brother?
15· · · · A.· ·The addition of the 2x4?
16· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
17· · · · A.· ·No.· The vertical has more integrity for
18· · weight.
19· · · · Q.· ·Sturdier, more reliable?
20· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· So basically if it was horizontal,
21· · it may bow to weight of however much hay was on.
22· · Vertical it'd have less likelihood bowing under
23· · weight.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall when you did that
YVer1f
·1· · in relation to the homicides?

·2· · · · A.· ·Several days before.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, did you make
·4· · some effort to keep that vehicle out of sight of
·5· · other people?
·6· · · · A.· ·In a general sense, yes, but not of great
·7· · effort.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where did you keep it parked
·9· · when it was at your house?
10· · · · A.· ·In our new barn.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, how did you
12· · learn what night it was going to be?
13· · · · A.· ·My father told me.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did he tell you?
15· · · · A.· ·He came down in the earlier afternoon and
16· · said that was -- well, it may have been a few days
17· · before.· I think it was the day of.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So your recollection is he came
19· · down in the early afternoon and said that was going
20· · to be the day?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And then what did you do, if anything, in
23· · anticipation of knowing that that was going to be
24· · the day?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Is your question what did I do in final

·2· · preparation?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · A.· ·I had taken -- well, later that evening, I
·5· · had taken the firearms and equipment and put it
·6· · inside the vehicle where we needed it.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, specifically, what firearms
·8· · did you place in the -- did you place them in the
·9· · bed of the vehicle or in the --
10· · · · A.· ·In the bed of the vehicle I placed the SKS
11· · and my 1911.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who was going to have the 1911?
13· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that one more time?
14· · · · Q.· ·Who was going to have the 1911?
15· · · · A.· ·I was.
16· · · · Q.· ·And who was going to have the SKS?
17· · · · A.· ·My brother.
18· · · · Q.· ·And at that time you did not have the
19· · 40 Glock?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And where was that weapon at that time?
22· · · · A.· ·Which one?
23· · · · Q.· ·The 40 Glock.· Sorry.
24· · · · A.· ·I assume it was on my father.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You did not have it at Peterson Road at

·2· · that time?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And did you do anything else in
·5· · preparation -- I guess, what specifically were you
·6· · going to wear that night?
·7· · · · A.· ·Ski masks; gloves; and hoodies; and dark,
·8· · baggie clothes; and the shoes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And the shoes?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, specifically, what shoes are
12· · you referring to?
13· · · · A.· ·The ones my mother bought.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know what George was
15· · wearing that night?
16· · · · A.· ·Something similar.· I cannot recall
17· · specifically, but I do know he had a ski mask,
18· · gloves, and the shoes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall what size those were?
20· · · · A.· ·10 1/2 and 11.
21· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall what size shoe -- which
22· · size you wore that night?
23· · · · A.· ·10 1/2.
24· · · · Q.· ·And did George wear the other pair?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you or your dad or George
·3· · have any other weapons on your person that night?
·4· · · · A.· ·Not that I know of.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You did not?
·6· · · · A.· ·What's that?
·7· · · · Q.· ·You did not?· You personally did not?
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm sorry?
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He answered the question
11· · initially.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule that.
14· · · · Q.· ·Did you have any other weapon on your
15· · person other than the 1911 initially, I guess I
16· · should say?
17· · · · A.· ·When you say, did that include a firearm
18· · or just anything, a weapon?
19· · · · Q.· ·Oh, well, if you had other weapons, go
20· · ahead and tell us that.
21· · · · A.· ·I had a knife.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what kind of knife did you
23· · have?
24· · · · A.· ·Large hunting knife.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And did you or did your father or George

·2· · have any other weapons on them that you're aware
·3· · of?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Did your dad come back over than later in
·6· · the day, or did he come -- when he came earlier in
·7· · the day, did he stay?
·8· · · · A.· ·I believe he stayed.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, at some point
10· · during that evening did you watch a clip from the
11· · Boondock Saints movie?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall what that clip was?
14· · · · A.· ·It was a clip of the Mexican actor showing
15· · a pair of 1911s making a dingdong statement or
16· · something like that.
17· · · · Q.· ·And then afterwards do the brothers appear
18· · into that clip?
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Your Honor.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What's the basis for this?
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's leading.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That is a leading question, so
23· · I will sustain the objection.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Did anybody else appear in that video

·2· · clip?
·3· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· XX-8.
·6· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit XX-8 was thereupon marked
·7· · for identification.)
·9· · · · Q.· ·Jake, I'm going to be showing you a clip,
10· · XX-8.
11· · · · A.· ·I see something about Charlie Sheen.
12· · · · Q.· ·What did you say?
13· · · · A.· ·The one on my screen says Charlie Sheen.
14· · · · Q.· ·The information above it is what was
15· · Googled.· The Boondock Saint's II dingdong scene is
16· · what was Googled on your phone.
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· Is there a
18· · question here?
20· · objection.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
23· · · · · · ·(Video clip played as follows:)
24· · · · · · ·Dingdong mother-fuckers.· Dingdong.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·Does that look like what you were
·3· · describing as the clip that you watched that night?
·4· · · · A.· ·I remembered parts about the last section
·5· · of the Mexican guy saying dingdong.· I don't
·6· · remember that part, but that is the clip.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, specifically, do you recall
·8· · the guns that the Mexican actor had?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And just describe those.
11· · · · A.· ·Gold-plated 1911 with the Mexican flag for
12· · grip.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us where you were
14· · when you were watching that?
15· · · · A.· ·In the kitchen at the Peterson Road house.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did anybody else watch it with
17· · you?
18· · · · A.· ·My brother and mother was present.
19· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us why you chose to watch
20· · that particular clip that night?
21· · · · A.· ·In a sense -- I'm not completely sure, but
22· · I think it was due to a sense of trying to -- I
23· · think the word is to psyche myself into the
24· · gumption of doing what I was about to do.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, were you aware of
·2· · what the plan was as far as how you were going to
·3· · get up to the locations that you were traveling
·4· · that night?· How was that going to occur?
·5· · · · A.· ·Like, how I would get from point A to
·6· · point B?
·7· · · · Q.· ·Yep.
·8· · · · A.· ·In the vehicle that I had bought from my
·9· · uncle Todd.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, how were you going to
11· · be traveling in that vehicle?
12· · · · A.· ·Under the false floor cover in the bed.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where was your dad going to be
14· · traveling?
15· · · · A.· ·He would be driving.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where was George going to be
17· · traveling?
18· · · · A.· ·He would have been with me.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In the bed of the truck?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·False bed of the truck?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·After you built that platform or whatever
24· · with the 2x4 and the plywood, did you put anything
YVer1f
·1· · on top of it?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·What did you put on top of it?
·4· · · · A.· ·It was either hay or straw.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what the plan
·6· · was for once you got up -- first of all, where was
·7· · the first location you were going to go to?
·8· · · · A.· ·Chris Senior's.
10· · was for once you arrived up there with your dad
11· · driving that truck and you and George stowed away
12· · in the back?
13· · · · A.· ·What was the plan once we got there?
14· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
15· · · · A.· ·Dad was to get the attention of Chris. I
16· · think he said he was going to walk out to the
17· · garage or the grow room, and when he would come
18· · back, as he was walking, I was to -- well --
19· · first -- I'm sorry.· First he would let us out of
20· · the vehicle and, once we was in position, then he
21· · would take Chris to the barn or the grow room, and
22· · on his way back is when he was supposed to be shot
23· · or -- so he wouldn't feel anything or see anything
24· · coming.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, did you know what
·2· · the meeting was about?· Why -- what story your dad
·3· · had for going up there at that time?
·4· · · · A.· ·The information my dad had told me was he
·5· · was supposedly going to go to Chris's house because
·6· · Chris had had some kind of a -- some kind of a --
·7· · either a drug transport or drug receiving
·8· · expedition to California.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So talk to me about -- what time
10· · approximately did you leave the Peterson Road
11· · address and how had your dad gotten there to begin
12· · with to the Peterson Road address?
13· · · · A.· ·We left sometime around 9:00 o'clock in
14· · the evening.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
16· · · · A.· ·And he had come down in his own truck.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, how did you,
18· · like, leave your house?· When you walked out of the
19· · door at Peterson Road, where did you go and what
20· · did you do?
21· · · · A.· ·From the house?
22· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
23· · · · A.· ·You mean when we left?
24· · · · Q.· ·When you walked from your house -- when
YVer1f
·1· · you walked outside of your house.

·2· · · · A.· ·We walked up to the barn.· I cannot
·3· · remember specifically how Dad or George walked. I
·4· · walked barefoot, and then once I got to the barn I
·5· · had put the shoes on there.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And by "the shoes," are you
·7· · referring to the shoes that your mother bought you
·8· · and George?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where had they been prior to
11· · you putting them on?
12· · · · A.· ·The shoes?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
14· · · · A.· ·I already had them in the truck.· I can't
15· · remember where they were before that.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So this particular day you had
17· · already placed them in the truck at the same time
18· · that you placed the weapons or during that time
19· · period?
20· · · · A.· ·I would say, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you walked out barefoot.
22· · · · · · ·Why did you not put those shoes on before
23· · you walked out to the barn?
24· · · · A.· ·I figured that it was possible to track
YVer1f
·1· · soil from my property to Chris's property or the

·2· · other properties.· I didn't know if there were
·3· · different soil types in that close radius or not.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And once you were out to the barn,
·5· · you said you put on those shoes.
·6· · · · · · ·What else did you put on, if anything, or
·7· · did you change your clothes completely or -- tell
·8· · me about that.
·9· · · · A.· ·I don't remember if I clothed myself with
10· · all of the other clothing before I left the house
11· · or at the barn.· I can't remember which one.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did your brother do similar as
13· · far as went out to the barn and then -- do you
14· · recall if he put the shoes on out in the barn?
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· It's
16· · leading.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.· It's leading.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.· I'll let him
20· · answer.
22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I really can't remember
23· · where he clothed.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You don't recall if he had put any

·2· · other clothing --
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.· Asked and
·4· · answered, Your Honor.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You don't recall if you put any other
·8· · clothing or shoes out in the truck at the time that
·9· · you put your shoes out there?
10· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were all three of you together
12· · when you walked from the house to the barn?
13· · · · A.· ·I think so.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us where your
15· · mother was at that time?
16· · · · A.· ·In the house.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where were the children?
18· · · · A.· ·They were upstairs asleep.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
20· · · · A.· ·Or they may have been in my brother's
21· · bedroom.· Either way, they were asleep.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was your mother awake when you
23· · left?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did she know where you were
·2· · going?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, was there any
·5· · instruction to your mother regarding -- well, did
·6· · you guys take your phone -- your cell phones with
·7· · you that night?
·8· · · · A.· ·I did not.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And are you aware whether there was any
10· · instructions to your mother regarding your cell
11· · phones?
14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That means I can answer?
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· It's yes or no.· Do you know
16· · whether there were any instructions?
17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So overruled means I answer?
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes.
19· · · · · · ·He just doesn't know if he can answer or
20· · not.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Oh, yes.· You may answer, but
22· · it's a yes-or-no question.
23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat the question?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Yep.

·2· · · · · · ·Are you aware of whether or not there were
·3· · any instructions to your mother regarding your cell
·4· · phones?
·5· · · · A.· ·I can't answer that yes or no.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm sorry.
·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I really can't answer that
·8· · yes or no.· Can I give a little detail?
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That question is a yes-or-no
10· · question.
12· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.
13· · · · · · ·So the first question is were you aware if
14· · there were instructions to your mother?
15· · · · A.· ·From me?
16· · · · Q.· ·At all.
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Did you hear any instructions being given?
22· · · · A.· ·I told my mom to keep my phone on and
23· · browse Facebook a time or two.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was the purpose of that
YVer1f
·1· · instruction?
·2· · · · A.· ·To make it look like I was actively -- I
·3· · don't know what the word is -- Facebook present
·4· · with the GPS for my location.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall what your father
·6· · was wearing that night?
·7· · · · A.· ·I can remember him wearing a hoodie. I
·8· · don't remember him wearing anything out of the
·9· · normal.
10· · · · Q.· ·Out of the norm?
11· · · · A.· ·Ordinary.· Out of the norm.
12· · · · Q.· ·Did he have a ski mask on?
13· · · · A.· ·No.
14· · · · Q.· ·Did he have gloves on?
15· · · · A.· ·I think so.· I'm not sure.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall at all what kind
17· · of shoes or boots he was wearing?
18· · · · A.· ·I don't think he had anything other than
19· · his normal clothes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· To your knowledge -- I know you
21· · indicated that your dad said that he was closer
22· · than a brother with Chris.
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·To your knowledge, had he been to Chris's
YVer1f
·1· · house on prior occasions?

·2· · · · · · ·Before the night of the homicides had he
·3· · ever -- had your dad ever been at Chris's house?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell me a little bit about
·6· · that SKS?· Was that a gun that you liked?
·7· · · · A.· ·Not particularly.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why not?
·9· · · · A.· ·When that particular SKS was bought, a
10· · decade or so prior, it was bought in a pair.· That
11· · one particularly for my brother, the opposite for
12· · myself.· Mine misfired, misfunctioned while I was
13· · ejecting a live round and fired with just a tip of
14· · the bullet still in the barrel.
15· · · · · · ·Because of said malfunction, I distrusted
16· · all AK-style firearms.· I had tried a few
17· · afterwards with good results.· That particular SK
18· · never malfunctioned, but just because of the past
19· · experience I distrusted them in general.· They
20· · really just wasn't my style of a firearm.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I believe we've talked about you
22· · guys go out to the barn.· You and George, I believe
23· · you said, both have ski masks, darker clothing, and
24· · Jersey gloves; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· I don't
·3· · think that's the testimony.
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Say it again.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.· I don't believe
·6· · that's the exact testimony.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah, I'm not -- I'm going to
·8· · sustain the objection.· I'm not sure all of that
·9· · information is in prior answers.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did George have a ski mask on?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did he have the Jersey -- the same type of
14· · Jersey gloves that you had on?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall the color of his clothing?
17· · · · A.· ·Blackish.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did he also wear the pair of
19· · shoes that your mother had bought?
20· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· I don't -- can you repeat
21· · that?
22· · · · Q.· ·That's okay.· Was he also wearing the pair
23· · of shoes that your mother bought?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I believe you said you had on

·2· · the 10 1/2s, so that would have left the size 11
·3· · for him; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, when you got into
·6· · that truck, how did you get into it?
·7· · · · A.· ·Feet first.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And did George do the same?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So once you were in that bed of the
11· · truck, what else was in the bed of the truck with
12· · you?
13· · · · A.· ·Nothing beside the firearms.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And once you were in the truck, did
15· · the tailgate stay down or was it closed?
16· · · · A.· ·My father closed it.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So then you and George are in the
18· · back of that truck enclosed in the back of that
19· · truck; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you -- did you have any
22· · problems fitting in there with your brother?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, did your brother
YVer1f
·1· · weigh more then than he does now?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But he was still able to fit in the
·4· · bed of that truck?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you know approximately how long of a
·7· · drive it is from Peterson Road to Chris Senior's
·8· · house?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·How far is it, approximately?
11· · · · A.· ·15 miles.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so did you drive up there that
13· · night when you left Peterson Road?
14· · · · A.· ·Did I?
15· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Well, did you -- did you get up to
16· · Chris Senior's house that night?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what happened when you arrived?
19· · · · A.· ·My dad parked the vehicle out front.· And
20· · I can't quite remember if he did this immediately
21· · or maybe come back out a very, very short period of
22· · time.· I think he did immediately.· When he got
23· · out, he come to the back of the truck and said
24· · something about waiting for a signal of some kind
YVer1f
·1· · or something like that; he'd be back or something,

·2· · and then he went inside Chris's house.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at that time were you still
·4· · completely enclosed in that bed?· Was the tailgate
·5· · still closed?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us approximately
·8· · how long you remained in the back of that truck?
·9· · · · A.· ·Less than ten minutes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what happened?
11· · · · A.· ·Dad had come back out, had lowered the
12· · tailgate, had told my brother and I to get into
13· · position while he was -- once he went back in the
14· · house.· So my brother and I got out, I took the
15· · 1911.· I handed him the SKS.· I got under the front
16· · of our vehicle behind the driver's tire, under the
17· · vehicle, and my brother was to the left of me
18· · underneath of one of the vehicles that was parked
19· · there in Chris's yard, under the rear right tire
20· · area.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how far away was George from
22· · you at that point?
23· · · · A.· ·A couple feet.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So even though you're near the
YVer1f
·1· · front of your vehicle and he's near the rear of the
·2· · vehicle, they were positioned such that you were
·3· · close together?
·4· · · · A.· ·Correct.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Is that fair?
·6· · · · · · ·Okay.· And can you tell us, was there
·7· · anything else that you observed nearby, I guess?
·8· · · · A.· ·When you say "observed," do you mean what
·9· · objects was nearby?
10· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
11· · · · A.· ·Other than our vehicle and the vehicle he
12· · was under?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.
14· · · · A.· ·Are you asking in front of my line of
15· · sight or behind me or all?
16· · · · Q.· ·In front.
17· · · · A.· ·Chris's house, front porch, and the dog.
18· · I can't remember anything specific.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what position
20· · you -- you were in under your truck, the truck that
21· · you arrived in?
22· · · · A.· ·Do you mean, like, body position?
23· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Are you sitting?· Laying?· Tell us
24· · about --
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I was laying down.· Specifically, it's

·2· · called prone position.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·I was laying on my stomach.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what position
·6· · George was in?
·7· · · · A.· ·I think the same.· I wasn't really looking
·8· · at him.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And correct me if I'm wrong,
10· · because I'm not sure I heard you, but you said your
11· · father told you to get into position after he went
12· · back in the house?
13· · · · · · ·Like, is he telling you to wait until he
14· · gets back in the house to get into position?· Is
15· · that what that means?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so you and George get into
18· · position.· You have the 1911.· At that time, George
19· · has the SKS; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And do you know what signal or what are
22· · you awaiting for?
23· · · · A.· ·For?
24· · · · Q.· ·In order to -- in order for Chris to be
YVer1f
·1· · shot.
·2· · · · A.· ·When Dad took Chris out back to the grow
·3· · room area, when they came back, Dad would have been
·4· · behind and Chris would have been in front, and
·5· · Chris would have walked into that section between
·6· · the frontish part of the -- the left side of the
·7· · front entry door to the porch.· That's when he was
·8· · supposed to be shot.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did your dad do that?· Did he
10· · walk back to the grow with Chris?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Did you observe that?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was there anybody else with him
15· · at that time, or with them at that time?
16· · · · A.· ·Gary Rhoden was.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is Gary Rhoden somebody that
18· · you knew prior to this night?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you recognized him?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, you, I believe,
23· · testified earlier that you guys knew that Gary
24· · lived with Chris; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·To my knowledge, it was an off-and-on

·2· · arrangement.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So did you know for sure when you
·4· · left Peterson Road that night if Gary was going to
·5· · be at that location?
·6· · · · A.· ·I did not.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us -- you said
·8· · that George was in a prone position and had the
·9· · SKS.
10· · · · · · ·Can you tell us how that was working or
11· · how that -- you know, how he was holding the
12· · weapon, how --
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule that. I
17· · will allow the question.
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Thank you.
20· · · · Q.· ·How was he holding the weapon at that
21· · time?
22· · · · A.· ·Firing position.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
24· · · · A.· ·That might be the right word.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And did your dad and Chris and Gary return
·2· · then from the grow room?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And I guess I should ask you, where on the
·5· · property was that grow room located that you're
·6· · talking about?
·7· · · · A.· ·A few yards behind the new barn he built.
·8· · So it would be behind the house.· Looking from the
·9· · front door to the left side behind the house,
10· · probably 50 or so yards diagonal to the left behind
11· · the new structure of the barn.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you aware of any other
13· · marijuana grows on that property?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And where would those be or where would
16· · that be?
17· · · · A.· ·Other than the one we just described?
18· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
19· · · · A.· ·Above his garage in the front of his
20· · house.· His motorcycle garage.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was not the grow that
22· · you're referring to as far as where your dad and
23· · Chris and Gary went --
24· · · · A.· ·No.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·-- this particular night?· Okay.

·2· · · · · · ·When they returned to -- did they return
·3· · to the front of the house then?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Who -- what order were they walking
·6· · in?
·7· · · · A.· ·Chris, Gary, Dad.· Chris being in the
·8· · front.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At that time did either you or
10· · George shoot Chris?
11· · · · A.· ·No.
12· · · · Q.· ·What happened?
13· · · · A.· ·When Chris, Gary, and Dad come into line
14· · of sight, I suppose the line of position I seen
15· · them first is, as Chris was coming closer to the
16· · front of the door and George still had not shot, I
17· · had nudged him of some sort or said something and
18· · told him to shoot, but he didn't.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So what did you do next?
20· · · · A.· ·At that point Dad had already entered
21· · the -- well, Chris, Gary, and Dad had already
22· · entered the house, so I took -- I leaned over --
23· · after he went inside the house, I leaned over and
24· · took the SKS from him.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what happened?

·2· · · · A.· ·At some point very soon Dad came out
·3· · pretending to search for his cell phone, having
·4· · Chris pretend -- well, I guess having Chris try to
·5· · call it.· And when Chris was inside the house, Dad
·6· · walked out to the truck and leaned down and said
·7· · something like what happened or something like
·8· · that.· And I said he wouldn't shoot.· He was, like,
·9· · I'm going to give you one more chance, or something
10· · like that.
11· · · · · · ·And then he hollered back in and said,
12· · "Keep trying; I don't hear it.· Maybe it's in the
13· · house."· So he walked back inside.
14· · · · · · ·Now, this is not quoted.· That's along the
15· · lines of what he said.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So your dad makes some ruse to come
17· · out and talk to both of you to find out why he had
18· · not been shot?· Why Chris had not been shot?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And then you hear him talking about --
21· · asking somebody to try to call his phone; correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what else do you observe at
24· · that point?· You said your dad went back in.· What
YVer1f
·1· · do you observe next?

·2· · · · A.· ·Dad went back in.· I heard him talking to
·3· · Chris, say "Try again."· Chris came to the doorway.
·4· · He was standing in the doorway.· I was looking at
·5· · him.· And at that point -- prior to whenever they
·6· · was out, I had switched -- not switched, but I had
·7· · moved into the position where George was.· And from
·8· · that point, Chris stood in his doorway and I took
·9· · aim.· I was supposed to shoot one time, make it a
10· · clean headshot so he wouldn't feel a thing.
11· · · · · · ·The first shot, I suppose, missed, and I
12· · panicked and I closed my eyes, pointed in the
13· · midsection and just fired randomly.
14· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us -- you indicated that
15· · you made a silencer out of an oil filter for that
16· · SKS; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Correct.
18· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, did that affect your
19· · line of sight at all with that weapon?
20· · · · A.· ·The way I had welded it on, you could only
21· · see the top part of the silencer.· It was visible
22· · but barely, so yes, it affected the line of sight.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that the first shot
24· · missed him, you believe?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·He didn't move.· I'm assuming it missed.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then I believe you said you
·3· · closed your eyes and aimed midsection?
·4· · · · A.· ·And started shooting.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·6· · · · A.· ·I don't recall how many times I shot.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall hearing or seeing
·8· · anything else at that time?
·9· · · · A.· ·I seen -- no.· After I had shot, I heard
10· · one or two gunshots.· I think it was two.· It may
11· · have just been one.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where were those gunshots
13· · coming from?
14· · · · A.· ·Inside the house.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, when you fired
16· · at Chris where -- where was he positioned?
17· · · · A.· ·Who?
18· · · · Q.· ·Chris Senior.
19· · · · A.· ·In the doorway.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · A.· ·By the front door.
22· · · · Q.· ·And was the door open, closed, or
23· · something else?
24· · · · A.· ·It was open.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Was there more than one door?· Like, was
·2· · there a screen door and a big door, I guess?
·3· · · · A.· ·I think there was just one.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you -- you said you closed
·5· · your eyes and shot.· When you opened your eyes,
·6· · what did you see?
·7· · · · A.· ·Chris was gone.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· He was no longer standing in the
·9· · doorway?
10· · · · A.· ·He was no longer in the doorway.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, with that oil
12· · filter suppressor on that SKS, what was the nature
13· · of the sound that it made?
14· · · · A.· ·Similar to the sound of a hammer hitting
15· · wood.
16· · · · Q.· ·After you shot that weapon, what did you
17· · do?
18· · · · A.· ·I had picked up all the casings I had
19· · ejected.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us where the
21· · casings had gone?· Like, how far away were they
22· · from you, or close to you?
23· · · · A.· ·From that position, the projectiles went
24· · up into the lower quarter panel of the bed of the
YVer1f
·1· · truck I was under, which caused them to hit and

·2· · roll and fall beside my elbow.· So they was in a
·3· · pile by my arm.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do with those
·5· · casings once you picked them up?
·6· · · · A.· ·I put them in my pocket.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do with the SKS?
·8· · · · A.· ·I believe I handed it back to George.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that when you got
10· · out of that truck you had the 1911.· What did you
11· · do with that?
12· · · · A.· ·At the time I was shooting?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.
14· · · · A.· ·It was laying in the grass beside me.
15· · · · Q.· ·And after you had given the SKS back to
16· · George, what did you -- where was that weapon, the
17· · 1911?
18· · · · A.· ·In my hand.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What happened next?
20· · · · A.· ·By then Dad had come out of the house.· He
21· · was, like, in a scary, nervous, breakdown,
22· · panic-attack type emotional state, I guess you'd
23· · call it.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Nervous breakdown would be probably

·2· · accurate.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·And I had told him -- I was standing in
·5· · front of him on the concrete sidewalk, and I had
·6· · told him that he had to calm down.· Of course, it's
·7· · not a quote.· It's similar.· He had to calm down,
·8· · that it was too late to break down over something
·9· · now, something like that.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you see the 40 Glock at
11· · that time?
12· · · · A.· ·No, I don't think I did.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know -- did your dad have a
14· · holster on at all that night, or do you have any
15· · idea how he was carrying that weapon when he wasn't
16· · using it?
17· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure on that.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So how long are you outside with
19· · your father talking to him while he's having this,
20· · as you described, nervous breakdown?
21· · · · A.· ·Less than five minutes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you able to get him to calm
23· · down?
24· · · · A.· ·For the most part, I think so, yeah.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was George doing at that

·2· · time?
·3· · · · A.· ·I -- I don't know on that one.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· He was not participating in the
·5· · conversation you were having with your father?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what you did
·8· · then after this extended conversation with your
·9· · father?
11· · Characterized.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Well, extended
13· · conversation.· So I will sustain the objection.
15· · · · Q.· ·What did you do after this conversation
16· · with your father?
17· · · · A.· ·I went into Chris's house and I grabbed
18· · the keys out of Chris's pocket and then went
19· · outside to go into the grow room above the
20· · motorcycle garage to -- to get any hard drive for
21· · his security system.
22· · · · Q.· ·Hard drive what?
23· · · · A.· ·For his security system.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you know there was a
YVer1f
·1· · hard drive for the security system in the grow

·2· · room?
·3· · · · A.· ·I did not know there was a hard drive. I
·4· · just knew that there was a security system.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You just knew there was a security system?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.· I knew there was a security system.
·7· · I just did not know, in fact, that it was truly
·8· · operable.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you know there was a
10· · security system at all there?
11· · · · A.· ·Over-time interaction, anybody mentioned
12· · it.· I knew where the cameras were.· I mean, Hanna
13· · even pointed them out to me.· So I knew where the
14· · cameras were and I knew where they led, the wiring.
15· · And multiple people, including Chris, had always
16· · joked on certain aspects, "Well, I got you on
17· · camera."
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I guess I should back that up,
19· · right?
20· · · · · · ·When you were dating Hanna, did you ever
21· · go out to Chris Senior's house or any of the other
22· · properties that you went to that night?
23· · · · A.· ·Are you asking for all four properties
24· · while we was dating or are you asking --
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Let's start with just -- let's

·2· · start with Chris Senior's.
·3· · · · · · ·Had you ever been to Chris Senior's before
·4· · that night?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us why and when you would
·7· · have been there, for what reasons, and had you been
·8· · inside his home before?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes, I had.· Multiple times.· I had been
10· · there for -- in and outside the home and out back
11· · of the home and in the garage of the home for 4th
12· · of July parties, to exchange tools that we had
13· · borrowed.· I helped -- I've been to that -- in the
14· · garage to help work on several vehicles with
15· · Frankie --
16· · · · Q.· ·Frankie and what?· I'm sorry.
17· · · · A.· ·Frankie and his friend.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
19· · · · A.· ·Particularly Blake is one of them.· Pick
20· · and drop off Hanna.· Pick up Hanna and drop her
21· · off.· Multiple gathering situations.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Had you ever been in that grow
23· · above the garage?
24· · · · A.· ·Only the night of the murder.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you had seen the cameras

·2· · before?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And let's go ahead and talk about
·5· · the trailer where Frankie lived.
·6· · · · · · ·Had you ever been in that location before?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us for what occasions or
·9· · why you were in that --
10· · · · A.· ·In Frankie's trailer, during my
11· · relationship with Hanna, that is where Dana and
12· · Franklin and Christopher and Hanna lived, so I had
13· · spent multiple times in that trailer on the
14· · property.· I've stayed over dozens of times,
15· · several dozen times.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you had actually slept in that
17· · trailer before?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Where was Hanna's room in that
20· · trailer when you were dating her, or when you were
21· · there?
22· · · · A.· ·There's two bedrooms on the right side in
23· · the back of the trailer.· Anyhow, during our
24· · relationship and after, she had used both of them
YVer1f
·1· · actually at different points in time, but this one

·2· · particular time it was that one, but she had used
·3· · that both of them.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And during the time that you had
·5· · stayed over there, was there just one bedroom or
·6· · was -- or was there more than one bedroom that she
·7· · stayed in?
·8· · · · A.· ·There's three bedrooms.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Say it again.
10· · · · A.· ·There's three bedrooms.
11· · · · Q.· ·Three.· Okay.· So you had been in each of
12· · those bedrooms -- each of those three bedrooms at
13· · one point?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what about the home where
16· · Dana and Hanna and Little Chris were that night?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes, I've been there before as well.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And on what occasions had you been
19· · there before?
20· · · · A.· ·To pick up and drop off my daughter.
21· · Prior to Kylee being born, I had went over and set
22· · up the crib for her.· And a couple of other
23· · times -- there was a few other times of just
24· · scenarios of basically stop-by type stuff.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · A.· ·But all had something to do with either --
·3· · I guess, with the kids of some sort.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you say you set up the
·5· · crib for her, who's "her"?
·6· · · · A.· ·I think I said Kylee, but if I did not --
·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you?
·8· · · · A.· ·-- it was for Kylee.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where in that home did you set
10· · up the crib?
11· · · · A.· ·In the furthest back large bedroom.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know whose bedroom that
13· · was?
14· · · · A.· ·That was Hanna's.
15· · · · Q.· ·And was there also a little bed for your
16· · daughter in that room?
17· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that question?
18· · · · Q.· ·Was there also a little bed for your
19· · daughter in that room?
20· · · · A.· ·I do not remember right now.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And on one of the times that you
22· · either dropped and/or picked up Sophia, did she
23· · give you a little tour of Dana's new house?
24· · · · A.· ·Like, did Hanna give me an actual tour?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Did your daughter give you an actual tour?

·2· · Do you remember a time where Dana told Sophia to
·3· · give you a tour?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know how long they had lived
·6· · in that particular location?
·7· · · · A.· ·Not very long.· I don't know how many
·8· · months-wise, but probably less than eight months.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what about Kenneth Rhoden's
10· · property?· Had you ever been to that location?
11· · · · A.· ·The location, yes, but not when it was
12· · houseable or -- how do you say that?· Before
13· · anybody was living on it.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So what occasion did you have to be
15· · at that property before?
16· · · · A.· ·The only other time I had actually been to
17· · it -- this was only as frequently, like, pulled off
18· · and pulled back on.· I cannot remember the year.
19· · But Hanna had -- no.· This had to have been 2013.
20· · Hanna and I had taken my four-wheeler on a memorial
21· · ride for one of her friends who had passed away
22· · from cancer.· Went through the state forest park
23· · thing out towards Rarden and whatnot.· And on our
24· · way back -- on the way back, we had went -- her and
YVer1f
·1· · I went that way down Left Fork and pulled over in
·2· · that driveway from -- for some reason we had to
·3· · pull over.· Let somebody go by or flagged us down
·4· · or something, I forget.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you had not been there since
·6· · Kenneth lived on the property; is that correct?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·So you indicated that after you had that
·9· · conversation with your father, you entered into the
10· · residence of Chris Senior; correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And at that time I think you said that you
13· · got some keys from his --
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·From him?
16· · · · · · ·Where on his body were those keys?
17· · · · A.· ·In his front pocket.
18· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall what he was wearing at that
19· · time?
20· · · · A.· ·Jeans.· Maybe something black, I think.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where was he located in the
22· · house when you got those keys from him?
23· · · · A.· ·Just inside the door to the left.
24· · · · Q.· ·To the left?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that?

·2· · · · Q.· ·I was asking you, did you say to the left?
·3· · Just inside the door to the left?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, ma'am.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And did you notice any injuries -- any
·6· · specific injuries to his body at that time?
·7· · · · A.· ·I cannot remember any, no.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At that time is that all you did
·9· · was get the keys?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do once you got the keys?
12· · · · A.· ·I went outside and went to the back of the
13· · house -- or to the side of the house.· I went up
14· · the steps to the back of the garage, the motorcycle
15· · garage, and went up to the door, unlocked the door,
16· · went in, disconnected the hard drive of the
17· · security system, looked to see if there was a
18· · second, went back out the -- took the hard drive,
19· · went back out the door and locked it behind me and
20· · went back down.
21· · · · Q.· ·You said locked it?
22· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I shut the door, locked it behind
23· · me and went back downstairs.· Went back down the
24· · steps.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you have with you at
·2· · that time?
·3· · · · A.· ·His security hard drive.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do with that security
·5· · hard drive once you got back downstairs?
·6· · · · A.· ·From that point, George and Dad were
·7· · standing in the grass over by the truck, our truck,
·8· · so I went towards them and put it in the back seat
·9· · of the truck.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said your dad and brother
11· · were standing by that truck at that time?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Approximately how long would you say you
14· · were in the grow?
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do -- you said you
17· · put the security hard drive in the back seat of the
18· · vehicle that you arrived in?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what did you do?
21· · · · A.· ·After that, I went back into Chris's house
22· · and went to the bedroom and got his and Gary's cell
23· · phones out of their pocket.
24· · · · Q.· ·And where were Chris and Gary at that
YVer1f
·1· · time?
·2· · · · A.· ·In Chris's bedroom.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Is that the same location that you
·4· · had seen him earlier when you got the keys out of
·5· · of Chris --
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·-- Senior's pocket?
·8· · · · · · ·Can you tell us, did you observe anything
·9· · else at that time in the house?
10· · · · A.· ·There was blood on the floor.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · A.· ·Which I had tried to wipe-ish -- I pulled
13· · the blanket down over on Chris and Gary, and I --
14· · on my way out, I had tried to wipe the floor with
15· · the rug of some sort as I went outside.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you indicated that you -- while
17· · you were back in the bedroom, you pulled the
18· · blanket over Chris and Gary?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Where did the blanket come from?
21· · · · A.· ·His bed.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
23· · · · A.· ·Chris's bed.
24· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us why you did that?· Why
YVer1f
·1· · did you cover them?

·2· · · · A.· ·I really don't know why I did it.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And did you participate in moving the
·4· · bodies?
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Based on the appearance of the blood that
·7· · you saw, could you tell how the bodies had been
·8· · moved?
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule that.
11· · That's a yes or no.
12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What was the question again?
14· · · · Q.· ·Based on the blood that you saw, were you
15· · able to conclude how the bodies were moved?
18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were your observations?
21· · · · A.· ·There was drag marks.
22· · · · Q.· ·Did you -- did both Chris and Gary have
23· · phones?
24· · · · A.· ·I believe so.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where on their persons were the

·2· · phones?
·3· · · · A.· ·In their pockets.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, if you recall, was this the
·5· · same pocket on Chris that you had gotten the keys
·6· · from, or not?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And tell us why you got their cell
·9· · phones.
10· · · · A.· ·Honestly, I don't know.
11· · · · Q.· ·Did anybody tell you to do that, or this
12· · was just something you --
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· Asked and
14· · answered.
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's not asked --
17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What?
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I overruled it.
19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh.· No, it was my idea.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Once you retrieved the cell phones
22· · from both Chris and Gary, what did you do?
23· · · · A.· ·After I'm out of the house, right?
24· · · · · · ·Then I went back over to where George and
YVer1f
·1· · Dad was in front of our vehicle and not

·2· · initially -- what's the word?· Waited a moment or
·3· · so, a minute or so.· I forget the reason why.· And
·4· · then we walked up to Frankie's house.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, at this time
·6· · when you reunite with your dad and brother, first
·7· · of all, are they still near the truck?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And how is either your dad or your brother
10· · acting at that time?
11· · · · A.· ·I believe they was talking.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did it appear your father had
13· · calmed down from when he first come out of
14· · Chris Senior's house?
16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And do you know what they were talking
21· · about?· Did you hear anything they were saying?
22· · · · A.· ·No.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so you said you walked up to
24· · Frankie's house; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you just tell us --
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Do we wish to take a recess at
·4· · this point?· It's -- we've been at it --
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I'm sorry, Your Honor.· Yes.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· -- approximately two hours.
·7· · · · · · ·We will recess for 15 minutes.· So at 20
·8· · till the jury will reconvene in the jury room to be
·9· · brought up by court personnel.
10· · · · · · ·While we are at recess, you're not to
11· · discuss this case amongst yourselves or with anyone
12· · else.· You're not to permit anyone to discuss this
13· · case with you or in your presence.· You're not to
14· · form or express an opinion concerning the case.
15· · You're not to do any research concerning the case
16· · either as to the facts or as to the law from any
17· · source at all.· You're not to view, listen to, or
18· · read any reports or accounts of the case from any
19· · source at all.· You're to have no contact with the
20· · participants in the case including parties,
21· · counsel, or witnesses.
22· · · · · · ·Anything further from counsel for either
23· · side before we recess for our afternoon recess?
24· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are then in recess until 20

·2· · till 3:00.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Counsel for both sides ready
·7· · for the jury to be brought up?
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes, Your Honor.· Thank you.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right, Jason.· Bring them
11· · up.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Counsel for the State of Ohio
14· · may resume direct examination of the witness.
17· · · · Q.· ·I am going to put this up.· It's State's
18· · Exhibit A-544.
19· · · · · · ·Are you able to see this from where you
20· · are?
21· · · · A.· ·Sort of.
22· · · · Q.· ·Is that any better or worse?
23· · · · A.· ·That's better.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· First of all, do you recognize what
YVer1f
·1· · you're looking at there?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what are you looking at there?
·4· · · · A.· ·A topographical view of Chris Senior's
·5· · property.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And if you don't mind taking this
·7· · and --
·8· · · · A.· ·Oh, dear.· Do I need to sit or do you want
·9· · me to stand?
10· · · · Q.· ·If you maybe can stand.
11· · · · · · ·Okay.· So if you take this -- I know
12· · that's challenging.· But, first of all, if you
13· · could tell us approximately where you believe your
14· · vehicle was parked when you arrived.
15· · · · A.· ·Umm -- I'd say this spot here.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·But I don't remember that or that car
18· · being there.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
20· · · · A.· ·So it would have been somewhere around
21· · here.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Up kind of towards where there's
23· · kind of a bald spot on the ground?
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis of the objection?

·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· She's leading him to a
·3· · particular spot.
·4· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· No.· I'm asking him if that's
·5· · what he's pointing to.
·6· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· You guys have to talk a
·7· · little louder.· We can barely hear you back here.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I said she's got to talk
10· · louder.· We can't hear her.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.· We are away from the
12· · microphones now, which does make it difficult, but
13· · --· I'm not sure if your last question -- you want
14· · to ask that again, and I'll listen to the
15· · objection.
16· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I asked if he was pointing to
17· · the area where it's kind of bald, where the ground
18· · is kind of bald.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll permit that
20· · question.
21· · · · · · ·Overruled.
24· · · · A.· ·Oh.· About right here.· But I don't
YVer1f
·1· · remember that or that vehicle being there.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you said that your dad and
·3· · Chris and Gary walked back to the grow, can you
·4· · tell us where in that photo that would be?
·5· · · · A.· ·The grow room?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · A.· ·I think that is it.· I remember it being
·8· · more in this location here, but still -- where this
·9· · topographical, but I think that is it there.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when they were returning, what
11· · path did they take?
12· · · · A.· ·I could only see this section right here
13· · right about there on the trailer, so -- but they
14· · did go in that direction there and they come back
15· · in that direction.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·In this area here.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you just indicated that you
19· · went down to Frankie's house; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·After you had put the hard drive --
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·-- and gotten the cell phones; correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what path you took to

·2· · Frankie's?
·3· · · · A.· ·Here.· So -- dirt area here.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· You can sit down.
·5· · · · · · ·Okay.· And I believe you also had
·6· · indicated that you had gotten cell phones from
·7· · Chris and Gary.
·8· · · · · · ·Did you do anything with those cell phones
10· · · · A.· ·I put them in my pocket.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you went to Frankie's,
12· · were you walking or were you driving?
13· · · · A.· ·Walking.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was anybody with you?
15· · · · A.· ·My father and my brother.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And once you got to Frankie's
17· · house, what did you do?
18· · · · A.· ·We stopped at the corner by the telephone
19· · pole.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · A.· ·And Dad went to the front of the trailer
22· · and -- seeing if the door was locked or unlocked.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where were you and where was
24· · George when your dad went to the front door?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·At the telephone pole.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did your father discover?
·3· · · · A.· ·It was locked.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so what did you do then?
·5· · · · A.· ·We came back to the telephone pole and he
·6· · walked to the opposite side and seen if the back
·7· · door was locked.· I think I followed him over there
·8· · or maybe I stood at the edge.· I think I went over
·9· · with him.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you guys discover?
11· · · · A.· ·It was also locked.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so was there any conversation
13· · about that?
14· · · · A.· ·I don't know if it was exactly right then,
15· · because after that we had walked back down to where
16· · we was before, and he had -- somewhere in there,
17· · maybe at that spot, he had said that it might be --
18· · with Frankie's house, it might have to -- it might
19· · have to be a kick-the-door in situation, or
20· · something like that.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you said you went back to
22· · the previous location, are you talking about near
23· · the telephone pole or back to Chris's?
24· · · · A.· ·To Chris's.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So once you got back to Chris's,

·2· · what did you do?
·3· · · · A.· ·At that point we had gotten in Chris's
·4· · truck and went -- I think we went to Dana's house
·5· · to see if -- to see if she was home.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, when you were at
·7· · Frankie's house, did you notice any lights on
·8· · inside or any activity that you were able to
·9· · discern?
10· · · · A.· ·I did not go to the front of the house.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · A.· ·I think Dad had said something about a TV
13· · was on, but all of the lights was off.
17· · · · Q.· ·So you said all the lights were off, but a
18· · TV was on?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you indicated that you got into
21· · Chris's truck.
22· · · · · · ·What -- who made that decision?
23· · · · A.· ·Dad.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was there any conversation
YVer1f
·1· · about that?

·2· · · · A.· ·Not that I remember.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And do you know where the keys to that
·4· · vehicle were?
·5· · · · A.· ·They were in the -- the front door keys
·6· · that I had from the grow room.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And you still had those keys on your
·8· · person?
·9· · · · A.· ·I did.
10· · · · Q.· ·And you indicated you went to Dana's to
11· · see if she was home?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you find out?
14· · · · A.· ·That she was not.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you -- had you had any
16· · familiarity with her work schedule?
17· · · · A.· ·Would you repeat that?
18· · · · Q.· ·Did you have any familiarity with her work
19· · schedule?
20· · · · A.· ·Around about, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Tell me about that.
22· · · · A.· ·She worked at a nursing home thing across
23· · the street from where I lived.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Not necessarily across the street.· Across

·2· · the highway.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So did you know that she was
·4· · working that night?
·5· · · · A.· ·I don't remember if I knew that or not. I
·6· · think I did.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when you went to Dana's, tell
·8· · me, did you drive past Dana's?· Did you pull in the
·9· · driveway?· What did you do?
10· · · · A.· ·I know we had turned around, but I do not
11· · remember how we turned around.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You turned around once you were
13· · past Dana's or before Dana's?
14· · · · A.· ·Past.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what did you do?
16· · · · · · ·Well, first of all, tell me who's in the
17· · vehicle and where you guys are seated?
18· · · · A.· ·I -- I, myself, my brother, and my father
19· · are in the vehicle.· I think I was driving.· Maybe
20· · Dad was driving.· One of the two.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you all just sitting in
22· · the front of the vehicle?
23· · · · A.· ·No.· No.· George was in the back seat.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And after you went down and saw
YVer1f
·1· · that Dana was not home, where did you go?
·2· · · · A.· ·We had drove to Kenneth's to see if
·3· · Kenneth was home.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall -- so when you
·5· · went to Kenneth's, did you go back past Chris and
·6· · Frankie's homes?
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· That's
·8· · leading.
12· · · · A.· ·Oh.· Back past.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall when you got to
14· · that -- do you know what road that is that you
15· · would have gotten to them?
16· · · · A.· ·The road that Chris lives on or the road
17· · that Kenneth lives on?
18· · · · Q.· ·So what road does Chris live on?
19· · · · A.· ·Union Hill Road.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at what point did you make a
21· · turn and what road did you turn onto?
22· · · · A.· ·I mean, I know we turned onto 772 to the
23· · right.· I think we turned onto Left Fork going
24· · down, I think.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you traveled to Left Fork, and

·2· · what do you do on Left Fork Road?
·3· · · · A.· ·On -- after I'm on Left Fork?
·4· · · · Q.· ·After you're on Left Fork Road, yeah.
·5· · · · A.· ·Did he say something?
·6· · · · Q.· ·No.· I think there's just a lot of
·7· · movement.
·8· · · · A.· ·We had driven past Kenneth's.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was the purpose of driving
10· · past Kenneth's?
11· · · · A.· ·To see if he was home.
12· · · · Q.· ·And what did you discover?
13· · · · A.· ·We seen that he was home.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you stop at his place at that
15· · point?
16· · · · A.· ·No.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Where did you go then?
18· · · · A.· ·Back to Chris's.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And once you got back to Chris's,
20· · what did you do?
21· · · · A.· ·At that point we went back to Frankie's,
22· · walked back the same way, and went to the back of
23· · the house and I had tried to open the back door
24· · with the knife -- the hunting knife that I had.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · A.· ·And it broke, so the door -- the door
·3· · would not open.· And I had noticed the window was
·4· · opened under the middle bedroom.· So we -- let's
·5· · see.· So we walked past, or at least I did.· Dad
·6· · was behind me.· So we walked past the chicken
·7· · fencing, the dog -- no.· Yeah.· Past the chicken
·8· · fencing and the dogs.· And I had told Dad "hold my
·9· · gun," so he held the 1911.· I boosted myself into
10· · the home, up and down in through the open window,
11· · reached back out and had my dad hand me the gun,
12· · and then I went into the hallway, took a glance
13· · into Frankie's room.· I seen that he was at least
14· · laying there sleepish or -- he was at least in the
15· · bed.· And then turned and walked into the living
16· · room and I had noticed that his son Brentley was on
17· · the couch asleep.
18· · · · · · ·After that, I had opened the back door.
19· · Dad came in.· I went to open the back door.· I had
20· · walked back into Frankie's room.· And, as I took a
21· · step in and to the left, a couple steps into --
22· · right before -- right before I shot him, I noticed
23· · that Hannah Hazel was there too.
24· · · · · · ·So I had shot Frankie.· And after I shot
YVer1f
·1· · him, then I had shot Hannah Hazel.· Because of the

·2· · nature of the room, I did not search for cell
·3· · phones or shell casings.
·4· · · · · · ·And then after that, we had walked back
·5· · out to the living room and back outside.· I can't
·6· · remember exactly if I went out first or Dad went
·7· · out first, but, on the way out, I did lock the door
·8· · so that way when it would shut it would lock.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where was George at this time?
10· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when you opened that back door
12· · to let your dad in, do you see George or know where
13· · he is at that time?
14· · · · A.· ·No.· Because when we walked up, he was
15· · behind.· I was up front.· Dad was behind me.· He
16· · was at the back.· I don't remember seeing him when
17· · I opened the door.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So -- but he walked down -- back
19· · down to Frankie's with you and your father?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated when you first
22· · went in, you looked in that room and then opened
23· · the door and then returned to that room.
24· · · · · · ·Where was your father at that time when
YVer1f
·1· · you went back into the room?

·2· · · · A.· ·After I opened the back door?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · A.· ·I assume he was following behind me. I
·5· · didn't, like -- I opened it and then I turned and
·6· · went back.· I didn't linger.· So I assume he came
·7· · in and followed me.· Of course when I was in the
·8· · room, he was there behind me so obviously he did
·9· · come in because he was there at the door opening.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that you shot
11· · both Frankie and Hannah Hazel?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Were either of them awake at that time?
14· · · · A.· ·No.
15· · · · Q.· ·Did either of them stir at that time?
16· · · · A.· ·After I had shot Frankie, Hannah Hazel
17· · started to stir, kind of like a sluggish, moanish,
18· · like, waking up sound.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, did you notice
20· · their infant child at all?
21· · · · A.· ·Initially, no.· I did not notice that
22· · until after I had leaned into -- leaned over or so
23· · to shoot Hazel.
24· · · · Q.· ·You said you leaned over to shoot Frankie?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No.· Hazel.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Oh, sorry.· Okay.
·3· · · · · · ·And that's when you noticed their child?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall if their child was
·6· · awake or not?
·7· · · · A.· ·The baby?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated you did not try to
11· · recover any of those shell casings?
12· · · · A.· ·True.
13· · · · Q.· ·Or cell phones?
14· · · · A.· ·Correct.
15· · · · Q.· ·And you said the nature of the room.· What
16· · do you mean by that?
17· · · · A.· ·It was -- well, to be frank, it was a
18· · mess.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you also -- what was your
20· · belief about the ability of scientists or firearm
21· · experts to do ballistic comparisons on the
22· · ammunition that you used that night in your .22 --
23· · 1911 .22?
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm not sure --

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I can approach, Your Honor,
·3· · and explain.
·5· · objection.
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· You don't know what?
·8· · objection.· I'm not sure there's a foundation for
·9· · that question at this point.· I'm going to sustain
10· · the objection.
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, can we approach
12· · on this so I can explain that?
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· If what you're searching for
18· · is why did he pick up the brass or something like
19· · that, that's a question you should ask.· What his
20· · belief was about the scientific --
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's beyond that because even
22· · his selection to use that weapon, you know, because
23· · he owned it for a long time.· He shot it out at
24· · Peterson Road.· And you have to think, why did you
YVer1f
·1· · even use that weapon?

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Then the answer comes from him
·3· · rather than being suggested by the question.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Thank you, Judge.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The Court will sustain the
·9· · objection.
10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Do you want me to --
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· No.· I sustained the
12· · objection.· You can't answer that question, but she
13· · can ask a question.
14· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you made your, quote,
17· · last-minute switch to the 1911 .22 instead of the
18· · Ruger 1022, I guess, can you tell us why you chose
19· · that gun?
20· · · · A.· ·Other than the 1022?
21· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
22· · · · A.· ·It's the only other .22 pistol I had.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you want to use a .22?
24· · · · A.· ·I think it was because it's quiet. I
YVer1f
·1· · honestly don't remember what my reason was. I

·2· · believe it was because it was quiet.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you have any concerns -- well,
·4· · let me ask you this.
·5· · · · · · ·Did you ever shoot that 1911 .22 out at
·6· · Peterson Road?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How often would you say you did
·9· · that?
10· · · · A.· ·Oftenish.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you have concerns about us
12· · recovering shell casings from your home that would
13· · show up in the scenes?
15· · Objection, Your Honor.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· It's a leading question, so
17· · I'm going to sustain the objection.
19· · · · Q.· ·Did you have any concerns about that fact,
20· · that shell casings were in your driveway?
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That sounds like a leading
23· · question to me.· I'm going to sustain the
24· · objection.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·Why did you choose a gun that you had
·3· · fired at your home?
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.
·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Did somebody say objection?
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He said "objection."
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Oh, did -- he did say
·8· · objection?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Sorry, Your Honor.
10· · Objection.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Your microphone's on the
12· · floor.
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'll speak louder. I
14· · apologize.
16· · · · · · ·You may answer the question.
17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh.· What was your question
18· · again?
20· · · · Q.· ·Why did you choose a weapon that you had
21· · fired at your own home?
22· · · · A.· ·At the time I did not believe a rim-fired
23· · cartridge such as a .22, considering the firing pin
24· · specifically, was a forensicable part on those
YVer1f
·1· · particular cartridges.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · · · ·All right.· So when you exit the -- do you
·4· · exit the back door or the front door of Frankie's?
·5· · · · A.· ·The back.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And you indicated you locked it.· Can you
·7· · tell us how you did that?
·8· · · · A.· ·I just turned the lock switch, if that's
·9· · what it's called, in the doorknob to where when I
10· · would shut it, it would be locked from the inside.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that Frankie's son
12· · was asleep on the couch?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And at any time did he wake up?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·Once you left Frankie's, where did you go?
17· · · · A.· ·Just -- you mean, like, where did we go
18· · for the road or directly from his house?
19· · · · Q.· ·Directly from his house.· Where did you
20· · go?
21· · · · A.· ·Back to Chris's house.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do at that point?
23· · · · A.· ·We had gotten in Chris's truck again and
24· · went to Dana's.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall who was driving

·2· · at that point?
·3· · · · A.· ·It was either me or Dad.· I cannot
·4· · remember for sure exactly which one.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, is it one, two, or
·6· · three of you in that car?
·7· · · · A.· ·Three.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Before we go on to that location,
·9· · I'm just going to hand you, I guess --
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Why don't we go ahead and put
11· · up A-55, please.
13· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what we're looking at
14· · there?
15· · · · A.· ·Chris Senior's front porch.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you able to see in that
17· · photo where you believe Chris would have been
18· · standing at the time he was shot?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And if you could just tell us where
21· · he was.
22· · · · A.· ·Standing in the door.· Right there.
23· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit A-169 was thereupon
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.
·3· · · · · · ·I'm going to just hand you this, A-169.
·4· · · · · · ·If you could look at that and tell me if
·5· · you recognize that.
·6· · · · A.· ·I do.
·7· · · · Q.· ·What do you recognize that as?
·8· · · · A.· ·The inside of Chris Senior's house.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that how it appeared when
10· · you reentered Chris Senior's residence after having
11· · gone up into the grow room?
12· · · · A.· ·Minus the rug smear sections.
13· · · · Q.· ·So when you said there was blood on the
14· · floor, that does not -- that is not what you're
15· · describing?
16· · · · A.· ·Sorry.· I mean, the blood was on the
17· · floor, correct, yes.· But see how the rugs are on
18· · top and smeared --
19· · · · Q.· ·Um-hum.
20· · · · A.· ·-- that was from my efforts of moving
21· · them.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· Sorry.
23· · · · · · ·I'm going to hand you what's been marked,
24· · again, just for you, A-246.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Tell me if you recognize that.

·2· · · · A.· ·Sort of.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Tell me about that.
·4· · · · A.· ·I have managed to -- maybe it's
·5· · subconscious or deliberate of somehow, but I have
·6· · managed to have a memory block that does not allow
·7· · me to remember any of the images of the bodies.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If you can tell me, the blanket
·9· · that appears in that photo, is that the blanket
10· · that you placed over Chris and Gary, if you recall?
11· · · · A.· ·I really don't remember the color, but I
12· · did pull a blanket over.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then referring you --
14· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· You can go ahead and put this
15· · up.
16· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit B-24 was thereupon marked
19· · · · Q.· ·-- first to State's Exhibit B-24, which is
20· · 2308.
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· B-24.
22· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Okay.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us what we're looking
YVer1f
·1· · at there?
·2· · · · A.· ·The back door of one of their trailers.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you don't know who -- which
·4· · trailer that is?
·5· · · · A.· ·Considering the chicken coops on the
·6· · right-hand side, is that the back of Chris's?
·7· · · · Q.· ·That's my question to you.· Sorry.
·8· · · · · · ·Okay.· Let me -- let me --
·9· · · · A.· ·Is there a bigger photo?
10· · · · Q.· ·It doesn't really -- I guess, actually, if
11· · you go back to B-24, that one you were just at,
12· · 2308.· See that vent, I guess, to the left of that
13· · door?
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· See that --
19· · · · Q.· ·-- object to the left of the door?
21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The light or the venty
22· · thing?
24· · · · Q.· ·The light or the what?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Venty thing.

·2· · · · Q.· ·The venty thing.
·3· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I see it.
·4· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit B-25 was thereupon marked
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm showing you what's been marked
·8· · as State's Exhibit B-25, which is 2309.
·9· · · · A.· ·Oh, okay.· Yes, that is Frankie's house.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically this is a home
11· · that you have spent the night in, as you described,
12· · I believe, several dozens of times?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Correct?· Okay.
15· · · · · · ·And do you see the window that you entered
16· · that night?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you just describe to us
19· · where that is?· Is it the --
20· · · · A.· ·The one that is open.
21· · · · Q.· ·The one that is open.
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
YVer1f

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· And State's Exhibit B-27,
·3· · which is 2311.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And do you see the window that you entered
·6· · that night?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where in this picture is it?
·9· · · · A.· ·It's the one in the center.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· And then State's
14· · Exhibit B-28, which is 2312.
15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What's the question?
17· · · · Q.· ·Is that the same window?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us when you went
20· · in there, how you were able to get yourself in
21· · there?
22· · · · A.· ·I just -- how do I describe that?· Put my
23· · hands up on it and kind of slowly up in like a
24· · U-shape and then pulled my feet in afterwards.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·So would your body have been rubbing up

·2· · against the outside of the home?
·3· · · · A.· ·Could have been.· I don't necessarily
·4· · remember it actually rubbing except maybe on the
·5· · window seal, like the part that seals the window,
·6· · the two ridges about like that.· I remember that
·7· · part, but I don't necessarily remember touching the
·8· · outside.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· So you indicated that
10· · you went back to -- you can go ahead and put that
11· · down.· Sorry.
12· · · · · · ·You indicated that you went back to Dana's
13· · home in Chris's truck with your father and your
14· · brother.
15· · · · · · ·What did you do once you got to that
16· · location?
17· · · · A.· ·We pulled up to the -- in the driveway.
18· · By this point it was raining and thundering.· And
19· · we exited the vehicle and walked up to the front
20· · door.· I had checked to see if the door was locked;
21· · it was not.· I opened it, looked in to see if
22· · anyone was in the front room; there was not.
23· · · · · · ·I walked in and into -- as I walked in, I
24· · went into the constructioned area off to the back
YVer1f
·1· · behind the kitchen, or, I guess, off to the side of

·2· · the kitchen.· As I went in through there, there's a
·3· · hallway that connects Dana and Hanna Rhoden's
·4· · bedrooms.· It's opened; there's no door or nothing.
·5· · As I got to that point, I looked into Hanna's,
·6· · seeing she was asleep or at least laying on the
·7· · bed.· It looked like she was asleep.· I looked over
·8· · to Dana's and I seen that she was still awake on
·9· · her phone.
10· · · · · · ·At that moment I had froze; not sure for
11· · how long.· And Kylee had apparently woke up with a
12· · slight cry.· I had seen -- which jarred me out of
13· · my froze.· I'd seen Hanna kind of lean up on her
14· · shoulder or something to lean over her for the
15· · baby.· And, as I seen her do that, I was kind of in
16· · a -- I don't know how to describe my state of mind.
17· · It's shock or something.· Either way, it kind of
18· · pushed me to move.· So I moved to the left and took
19· · a couple of strides, maybe one, two, towards Dana,
20· · and, as I did that, she looked up and made a
21· · gasping noise before I shot her once or twice.
22· · · · · · ·And I immediately turned around and done
23· · the same motion, but Hanna had -- after I had shot,
24· · Hanna had rose up and turned to look at me.· As I
YVer1f
·1· · was coming towards her and before I entered the

·2· · actual bedroom, I was still in the hallway, I had
·3· · shot her.· And then I had turned around and went
·4· · back to Dana, shot her a second time, and then went
·5· · back to Hanna and shot her a second time.
·6· · · · · · ·After I did that, I kind of went back to
·7· · the door of Dana's bedroom, opened the door.· Both
·8· · my dad and brother was standing there.· My dad was
·9· · pointing his .40 in that direction, so when I had
10· · opened the door it was literally right in my face.
11· · And after that initial moment of -- I had moved
12· · past them and walked over to Christopher's room and
13· · opened Christopher's door.· He was asleep so I
14· · walked over and shot him once or twice, but he made
15· · noise, like -- I don't know.· It sounded like a
16· · grunt.· I don't know.· I panicked and I shot him a
17· · few more times.
18· · · · · · ·And then I started picking up the shell
19· · casings.· Went back to Dana and Hanna's room,
20· · picked up those shell casings.· Hanna had slightly
21· · fell off the bed, so I put her back on the bed to
22· · position her for Kylee.· And after that, we left.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when you first entered the home
24· · of Dana and Hanna and Little Chris, you said you
YVer1f
·1· · looked in the living room to see if anybody was

·2· · there.
·3· · · · · · ·Did you expect to find anybody in the
·4· · living room?
·5· · · · A.· ·Did I expect?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Expect to find anybody in the living room.
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Or did you think it was a possibility?
·9· · · · A.· ·It was a possibility.
10· · · · Q.· ·And did George and your father enter the
11· · residence as well?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And at that time you had the 1911 with
14· · you; is that correct?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And did your dad have his .40 Glock with
17· · him?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And did your brother have the SKS with
20· · him?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And you indicated you went through kind of
23· · a construction area, I think you said, or --
24· · · · A.· ·It was a house trailer, and this was an
YVer1f
·1· · area that was being added on as a living room, I

·2· · think, so it was still under construction.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you go through that
·4· · construction area, where does that take you to?
·5· · · · A.· ·To either -- it takes you to the hallway
·6· · that can go either/or bedroom.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At that point when you're in that
·8· · hallway, can you see either your brother or your
·9· · father?
10· · · · A.· ·No.
11· · · · Q.· ·And, likewise, you cannot see the room
12· · that Chris -- Little Chris is in; correct?
13· · · · A.· ·Correct.
14· · · · Q.· ·And we already discussed that you had been
15· · in that home before.
16· · · · · · ·Did you also sketch that out for your
17· · father and brother at some point?
18· · · · A.· ·I do remember doing it for my father.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was sometime before the
20· · homicides, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Not the day of?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated you were standing
YVer1f
·1· · there and could tell that Dana was on her phone; is
·2· · that correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that?
·4· · · · Q.· ·You said she was awake.· How could you
·5· · tell she was awake?
·6· · · · A.· ·She was, like, laying on -- propped up on
·7· · a pillow, like, lounging with both hands on her
·8· · phone.· Because I had taken her phone, it's -- it
·9· · revealed she was on Facebook or Facebook Messenger,
10· · one of the two.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated you also saw
12· · Hanna?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And you believed her to be asleep at that
15· · time?
16· · · · A.· ·Before I shot -- oh, when I first made --
17· · when I first come to the hallway.
18· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us how her body was
19· · positioned in the bed?
20· · · · A.· ·Hanna's?
21· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
22· · · · A.· ·Laying on her side.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
24· · · · A.· ·Or -- well, yeah, laying on her side.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that you were

·2· · kind of frozen and then Kylee started crying;
·3· · correct?
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.· This has been
·5· · asked and answered, Your Honor.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· This has been asked and
·8· · answered previously.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm going to overrule
12· · · · Q.· ·You indicated that Kylee started crying;
13· · correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And describe what you observed
16· · Hanna to do at that point.
17· · · · A.· ·She raised up, like, a forearm -- like, an
18· · elbow raising up, so as if she was laying on her
19· · side, but propped up on her elbow.· I think she was
20· · trying to breastfeed Kylee.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at that point you indicated you
22· · took a few strides into Dana's room; correct?
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Your Honor.· It's
24· · leading.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's not leading.· It's

·2· · saying what he said and then asking him a follow-up
·3· · question.
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, try to frame another
·5· · question.· I'll overrule the objection and let him
·6· · answer, but -- in order to get the context of the
·7· · next question.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that you took a few
10· · strides into Dana's room; correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Did you actually go into her room at that
13· · point?
14· · · · A.· ·When I shot, I don't think -- no.· The
15· · initial shots -- not the follow-ups, but the
16· · initial shots was both taken for Dana and Hanna
17· · inside the hallway.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you were not actually in the
19· · bedroom when you took the shots?
20· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at what point did Dana gasp?
22· · · · A.· ·When she seen me after Kylee made a noise.
23· · When she made a noise, she looked in that
24· · direction.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·This all happened in, like, a second or

·2· · two.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at that point, what are you --
·4· · what clothing do you have on at that point?
·5· · · · A.· ·The same that I had left my house with.
·6· · · · Q.· ·So you still have a mask on at that point?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us where on her body did
·9· · you shoot Dana?
10· · · · A.· ·Her head.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you indicate how many times
12· · you believe you shot that first time?
13· · · · A.· ·Once or twice.· I do remember one shot did
14· · hit her in the neck.· I don't remember if that --
15· · that may have been the initial shot.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how do you know it hit her in
17· · the neck?
18· · · · A.· ·That's -- I don't know how to describe it.
19· · I can remember the impact with, like -- I can't
20· · remember, like, a gore, but I remember a red hole,
21· · like a small hole on her neck as she fell back when
22· · I turned.· It's hard to describe.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated then you went to
24· · Hanna's room -- correct? -- or towards Hanna's
YVer1f
·1· · room?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.· And it was -- again, this all
·3· · happened within one or two seconds.· It was very
·4· · fast.· So once I had fired and Dana was, well,
·5· · thrown back, then I had spun and went the same
·6· · stride back to where I was standing before roughly
·7· · and extended my firing hand, my right hand, in the
·8· · same position basically, and Hanna had turned and
·9· · looked at me and also -- well, not a gasp.· She
10· · made more, like, an inhale gasp or, like, a sucking
11· · of air when I had fired and shot her.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where on her body did you shoot
13· · Hanna?
14· · · · A.· ·Her head.
15· · · · Q.· ·And did you immediately return to Dana's
16· · room then?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Dana, Hanna, Dana, Hanna.
18· · · · Q.· ·And where on Dana's body did you shoot her
19· · the second time?
20· · · · A.· ·On her head.
21· · · · Q.· ·And can you explain to us why you did
22· · that?
23· · · · A.· ·I was not completely sure -- not because
24· · of movement or nothing, but I was not completely
YVer1f
·1· · sure I had actually killed her.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you returned to Hanna's
·3· · room, where did you shoot her?
·4· · · · A.· ·Also in the head because I did not see an
·5· · entry wound.· So same scenario; I didn't know if
·6· · I'd actually killed her.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that she had
·8· · partially fallen off the bed, Hanna?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.· This is after my second shot.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so what did you do at that
11· · point?
12· · · · A.· ·I had put her back into the bed,
13· · repositioned her to where she was facing the
14· · position on her side as she was.
15· · · · Q.· ·As she had been when you first shot her?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And you said you did that for Kylee.· Can
18· · you explain to us what you mean by that?
19· · · · A.· ·It may not make sense, but I had done that
20· · in case the discovery of the bodies would have
21· · taken a long period of time.· I was concerned that
22· · Kylee would have starved to death.
23· · · · Q.· ·After that, I believe you indicated you
24· · went to the door by Dana's bedroom; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And that's when you opened the door and
·3· · your dad was there?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And you indicated your brother was where
·7· · · · A.· ·Standing behind my dad.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you went to Little Chris's
·9· · room; correct?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us, when you entered the room
12· · where you stood when you shot him?
13· · · · A.· ·I entered the room and walked up the left
14· · side of his bed coming into the room, and I -- I
15· · cannot remember how he was positioned, but I had
16· · shot him from the left side.· I was standing on the
17· · left side.
18· · · · Q.· ·And I believe you indicated he made a
19· · noise, and you then shot him more?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Where were you standing when you shot him
22· · those times?
23· · · · A.· ·All of the times I shot him, I was
24· · standing over him, so it was all pointblank.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what part of his body did you
·2· · shoot him in?
·3· · · · A.· ·The head.
·4· · · · Q.· ·When you entered that room, did he appear
·5· · to be sleeping?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you pick up shell casings in his room?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do with those shell
10· · casings when you picked them up?
11· · · · A.· ·I put them in my pocket.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you find or take a phone
13· · from Little Chris?
14· · · · A.· ·I believe I did.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember where it was
16· · located in the room?
17· · · · A.· ·I do not.
18· · · · Q.· ·And then after that, what did you do?
19· · · · A.· ·After that, I had went and searched for
20· · the other shell casings, and, once I had thought I
21· · retrieved them all, I think I locked the door;
22· · maybe I did not.· We left.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you all leave together?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·When you were shooting Christopher and

·2· · collecting shell casings and his phone, what were
·3· · your brother and father doing?
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll overrule the
·6· · objection.· If he knows.
·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Where did you see them?· When you
10· · exited Christopher's room, where were they?
11· · · · A.· ·I believe they were standing by the door.
12· · · · Q.· ·Christopher's door or the front door?
13· · · · A.· ·It's a small hallway.· It kind of -- that
14· · would be, like, an answer of yes to both.· So,
15· · like, if Dad's standing by the door, my brother
16· · would be standing behind him, they was -- one would
17· · be near his door, one would be near the front door.
18· · It's a very small hallway.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Okay.· And can you tell us, when
20· · your dad and George were in that area outside of
21· · Dana's door, if Little Chris had come out of the
22· · bedroom with a weapon, what would have happened?
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Sustained.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·What was their purpose of being there?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm going to sustain the
·5· · objection because I don't believe there's enough
·6· · foundation for that, but you can continue to
·7· · question in an acceptable manner.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Did you know what your father and
10· · brother's purpose was inside Dana's residence?
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That's a yes or no.
12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was that?
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll sustain the objection.
17· · I'm not sure how he knew.
19· · · · Q.· ·How did you know?
20· · · · A.· ·Assumption.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was your assumption?
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.· Or sustained to
24· · that objection.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·When you went -- or did you go back to
·3· · Hanna and Dana's rooms after you shot Little Chris?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And what was -- what did you do there?
·6· · · · A.· ·That's when I collected the shell casings.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In both Hanna and Dana's room?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And is that when you also repositioned
10· · Hanna?
11· · · · A.· ·I believe I done that when she actually
12· · fell after the second shot.· It was only a second
13· · or two to do.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you believe that you had
15· · collected all of the shell casings that you had
16· · fired?
17· · · · A.· ·I did.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you also collect their cell
19· · phones?
20· · · · A.· ·I did.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Both Hanna and Dana's?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that you were
24· · able to tell the activity that Dana had been doing
YVer1f
·1· · at the time you shot her?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how were you able to tell that?
·4· · · · A.· ·It was still on the page when I picked it
·5· · up.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What did you do with the cell
·7· · phones after you had collected them?
·8· · · · A.· ·I put them in my pocket.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, did you turn
10· · them off or did you do any -- manipulate them in
11· · any way?
12· · · · A.· ·I shut them off.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And does that same thing apply to
14· · Chris and Gary's phones when you collected their
15· · cell phones?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At any time during the evening did
18· · you -- of this night, did you turn back on any of
19· · those cell phones?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Tell me about that.
22· · · · A.· ·I turned -- I think it was Chris Senior's
23· · phone.· It was a flip phone, I think.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I turned it back on for a brief moment to

·2· · see what time it was.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember where you were or what
·4· · you were doing at that point?
·5· · · · A.· ·That was -- it was on the trip to
·6· · Kenneth's.· I cannot remember specifically if it
·7· · was the first or the second trip.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember what time it was
·9· · when you checked the time?
10· · · · A.· ·I believe it was close to 3:00 a.m.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And following up on a little
12· · questions regarding Frankie's residence.· Were
13· · there any cameras at his place?
14· · · · A.· ·Was there any cameras at Frankie Rhoden's
15· · place?
16· · · · Q.· ·Correct.
17· · · · A.· ·No.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you did not have to collect any
19· · there or seek out any security devices there?
20· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · Q.· ·Did you seek out any other security
22· · devices at Chris Senior's residence?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·And what about Dana's residence?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I believe I neglected to ask you,
·3· · when you were at Frankie's, where in Frankie's body
·4· · did you shoot him?
·5· · · · A.· ·The head.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And where in Hannah Hazel's body did you
·7· · shoot her?
·8· · · · A.· ·Also -- also the head.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And did you have your -- the phone jammer
10· · with you that night, or did any of you have the
11· · signal jammer?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know who had it?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Who had it?
16· · · · A.· ·My dad.
17· · · · Q.· ·And did you ever become aware of whether
18· · or not it was functioning properly?
19· · · · A.· ·Can you be a little more specific?
20· · · · Q.· ·Did it work the entire night?
21· · · · A.· ·No.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Tell me about that.
23· · · · A.· ·The battery had ran dead before we had
24· · left Chris Senior's house beginning.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is the room that you killed

·2· · Hanna in the same room that you had set the crib up
·3· · in earlier that week?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·When you were collecting shell casings in
·6· · Hanna's room, how did you go about doing that?· Did
·7· · you move anything?· Did you --
11· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh.
14· · · · A.· ·I did move a few items, like moving back
15· · the nightstand or something or a curtain or
16· · something in that right side to see if it -- if
17· · something had rolled under it.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You talked about the fact that you
19· · are a -- I think, a gun enthusiast is how you
20· · described yourself, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You've shot a fair amount of
23· · weapons?
24· · · · A.· ·More or less.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In your experience in shooting

·2· · weapons, can you tell us about shell casings and
·3· · where they might land?
·4· · · · A.· ·Being a semi-automatic handgun, they
·5· · usually fly at a -- up and out to the right of the
·6· · firearm, usually.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you went into Dana's room and
·8· · looked for shell casings, you already indicated you
·9· · took her phone as well.
10· · · · · · ·Did you do anything else in her room as
11· · far as covering her with any items?
12· · · · A.· ·I don't remember doing so.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when you left her, how was she?
14· · · · A.· ·I -- I'm not sure.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember her having a
16· · blanket on any part of her body at all?
17· · · · A.· ·When I seen her on her phone, I do believe
18· · she was -- I believe she was on top of the blanket,
19· · like laying on -- just on the bed.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · A.· ·I believe so.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you did not cover her at all?
23· · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I don't remember doing so.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At the time that you entered Dana's
YVer1f
·1· · residence, did you have any idea if Little Chris

·2· · had a friend staying over or not?
·5· · · · · · ·Go ahead and answer.· That's a yes or a
·6· · no.
·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Is that a yes?
·9· · · · Q.· ·You can answer the question.
10· · · · A.· ·And your question was did I know
11· · Christopher had friends over that night?
12· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Before you entered the residence,
13· · did you have any idea if he had any friends
14· · spending the night that night?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Before entering the residence, did
17· · you have any idea if Corey Holdren was in the
18· · residence that night?
19· · · · A.· ·I did not know -- I did not believe he
20· · would have been there, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you familiar with his vehicle
22· · at all?
23· · · · A.· ·I'm sure I was at one time, but I do not
24· · remember.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Try this again.

·2· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit C-436 was thereupon
·5· · · · Q.· ·I'm putting up what's been marked as
·6· · State's Exhibit C-436.
·7· · · · · · ·First of all, does this look familiar to
·8· · you?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what do you recognize that as?
11· · · · A.· ·A general blueprint of Hanna's and Dana's
12· · house.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if you could just -- if you
14· · don't mind using this again -- yeah, probably
15· · standing up is the best way.
16· · · · · · ·And if you could tell us when you first
17· · entered that residence, where did you go?
18· · · · A.· ·In the front door here.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you went into the front door.
20· · And then where did you go?
21· · · · A.· ·I went through the living room area, this
22· · opening here, which was partially blocked by
23· · sheets, and I just went through that construction
24· · area, which is what I was talking about, and stood
YVer1f
·1· · here, which is between the two bedrooms.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then when you -- when you
·3· · stated you were frozen, where would you have been
·4· · standing?
·5· · · · A.· ·In that -- between those two pillar walls,
·6· · the opening.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·8· · · · A.· ·I could see this way and barely into this
·9· · way.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
11· · · · A.· ·This really don't make a whole lot of
12· · sense.· Because I could see here, but I was
13· · standing here.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then when you shot Dana the
15· · first time, tell us where you were.
16· · · · A.· ·About here.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then when you retreated and
18· · went back towards Hanna's room, where were you when
19· · you shot her --
20· · · · A.· ·Here.
21· · · · Q.· ·-- the first time?
22· · · · A.· ·Here.
23· · · · Q.· ·And when you went back to Dana's for the
24· · second time, how -- you actually went into the
YVer1f
·1· · room?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I was here.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what in regard to Hanna?
·4· · · · A.· ·And I was here.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then when you went -- well, you
·6· · indicated then you went out a door and were greeted
·7· · by your father?
·8· · · · A.· ·That would be here.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where would he be standing and
10· · where would George have been standing at that time?
11· · · · A.· ·In that order, here and here.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then when you went into
13· · Christopher's room, can you tell us where you were
14· · standing when you shot him?
15· · · · A.· ·Here.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Thank you.
17· · · · · · ·So, sorry.· One more question regarding
18· · this diagram, C-436.
19· · · · · · ·When you came out of Christopher's room,
20· · can you tell us where your dad and George were?
21· · · · A.· ·Here.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who would -- who was the first
23· · person you saw or who was in the front at that
24· · point?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I believe it was Dad.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then where would George have
·3· · been then in relation to your dad?
·4· · · · A.· ·In the same spot.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· Thank you.
·6· · · · · · ·When you had been in that -- in Dana and
·7· · Hanna and Little Chris's residence, did you leave
·8· · any doors unlocked or anything like that while you
·9· · were in there?
10· · · · A.· ·Be more specific with your question.
11· · · · Q.· ·When you set up the crib -- you testified
12· · you set up the crib.
13· · · · A.· ·Oh, this is before the night?
14· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, before the night of the homicides.
15· · Did you attempt to leave any doors unlocked or
16· · anything like that to make reentry easier?
17· · · · A.· ·No.· The crib was just for the crib.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
19· · · · · · ·All right.· So did the three of you exit
20· · Dana's residence together?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do then?
23· · · · A.· ·I can't remember if I locked the door.
24· · But we got back to Chris's truck and we drove past
YVer1f
·1· · Chris's house.· I was driving -- no, I'm sorry.

·2· · No.· We stopped at Chris's house and George got our
·3· · truck, and then I drove first -- well, yeah. I
·4· · drove first and we went to Kenneth's.· Not down
·5· · Left Fork or -- one or both times -- there was two
·6· · times for Kenneth.· One time was coming one
·7· · direction, the other time was going the other
·8· · direction.· I think that second time was going
·9· · with -- down Left Fork with the passenger side of
10· · the truck being on the driveway side.· No.· Yes.
11· · No.· I'm not sure.
12· · · · · · ·Somehow at the point of going to
13· · Kenneth's, George had pulled off to a pull-off --
14· · technically, the end of a driveway about a mile or
15· · so from Kenneth's at the end of Left Fork while me
16· · and Dad went to Kenneth's.
17· · · · · · ·Once we pulled in, I pulled right up to
18· · the front of Kenneth's camper, left the headlights
19· · on.· Dad said to wait here.· He got out, walked up
20· · to the door, beat on the door a few times; nobody
21· · answered.· He opened the door, walked in, shut the
22· · door behind him.· I saw a muzzle flash, a second,
23· · maybe two seconds, and he walked out.· At that
24· · point I turned the headlights off.· I got out.· We
YVer1f
·1· · went over to Kenneth's grow room.· Once it was

·2· · opened, there was no security hard drive.· There
·3· · was a trail camera in one of the trees beside
·4· · looking -- looking down from a tree to the front
·5· · door of the grow room.· I had gotten that trail
·6· · camera.· Once Dad had come out of the grow room, we
·7· · got back in the truck.· And, on our way out, I had
·8· · noticed a motion detector on a tree.· I was going
·9· · to stop and get it; he said it was just a motion
10· · detector, not to worry about it, so I left it.· We
11· · went out, turned right, went down the road. I
12· · think he flashed his flashlight or something and
13· · George pulled out behind us and we went back to
14· · Chris's.· I parked his truck in the same place it
15· · was.· George and I got in the -- well, George was
16· · already in our Chevy.· He repositioned to the
17· · passenger side.· I got in the back seat.· Before I
18· · got in, I had locked Chris's door and tossed the
19· · keys inside and shut the door.· Then we got back in
20· · the Chevy.· I was in the back seat.· Dad was
21· · driving.· George in the passenger seat.· And we
22· · went home.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let me slow you down a little bit
24· · there.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·You indicated after Dana's you went back

·2· · to Chris's and at that time George got into the
·3· · truck that you had arrived in with the false bed?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And he drove that vehicle?
·6· · · · A.· ·George.
·7· · · · Q.· ·George did.· Okay.
·8· · · · · · ·And who was driving Chris's truck?
·9· · · · A.· ·I was.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall when you got to
11· · 772, which direction did you go?
14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· To the right.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated -- well, let me
17· · ask you this.· Did you go the same way that you had
18· · gone the first time?
19· · · · A.· ·I don't think so.
20· · · · Q.· ·And you just discussed the passenger side
21· · versus the driver's side of the vehicle.
22· · · · · · ·Was that the same or different on your
23· · second trip to Left Fork?
24· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· This has
YVer1f
·1· · been asked and answered.

·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· You're asking on
·4· · Left Fork; correct?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · A.· ·It was one or the other.· On 772, you can
·8· · take two different turns and go two different ways.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so my question is, when you
10· · were traveling on Left Fork, on the road that
11· · Kenneth lived, when you first went by his house,
12· · were you traveling in the same direction on that
13· · road as you were the second time you went down to
14· · his house?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So opposite directions?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated -- where was it
19· · that George pulled off?· Like, can you describe
20· · what it was?
21· · · · A.· ·I had thought it was a pull-off; it's
22· · actually a driveway.· It's about a mile at the end
23· · of Left Fork.· The far end, not the 772 side.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you indicated you were
YVer1f
·1· · driving.· And, again, this was in Chris's truck;

·2· · correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you left the headlights on and your
·5· · father got out of the vehicle and went into
·6· · Kenneth's home?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Did he appear to have to force entry into
·9· · that home?
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· This has
11· · been covered already.
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· This has already been asked
14· · and answered.
17· · · · Q.· ·You can answer the question.
18· · · · A.· ·No.
19· · · · Q.· ·And when your dad exited that home, who
20· · was it that went to the grow?
21· · · · A.· ·Dad.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, once again, did he appear to
23· · have to force entry into that grow?
24· · · · A.· ·I think he used the key.· There was no
YVer1f
·1· · forced entry.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you know it was a grow?
·3· · · · A.· ·Because I went to the door, but I did not
·4· · go in.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated there was a trail
·6· · cam in a tree.· Where was the tree in reference to
·7· · his residence?
·8· · · · A.· ·To the right.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if I'm facing the residence --
10· · · · A.· ·It would be the right of where --
11· · · · Q.· ·To the right of what?· I'm sorry.
12· · · · A.· ·To the right of the camper up the hill
13· · just a little bit behind.· It was directly in front
14· · of the grow.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how were you able to know where
16· · that was?
17· · · · A.· ·Seen it.
18· · · · Q.· ·And if you could just help me understand
19· · that.· Is it still dark out at that time?
20· · · · A.· ·No.· This is when the headlights was on.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how far up the tree was it?
22· · How did you get to it?
23· · · · A.· ·10 or so feet maybe, something like that.
24· · I can't really remember specifically how I got up
YVer1f
·1· · there to get.· There could have only been two

·2· · options.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What are those two option?
·4· · · · A.· ·One is to climb the tree, or, two, there
·5· · was a ladder nearby.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And you don't have a recollection of which
·7· · one occurred?
·8· · · · A.· ·I remember getting the camera; I just
·9· · don't remember how.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you look anywhere else on
11· · the property for any cameras or surveillance
12· · systems?
13· · · · A.· ·Other than inside the grow room, I took a
14· · quick peek in because I was looking for the camera,
15· · but I did not see any other, and Dad had indicated
16· · it was not a -- what do you call it?· Something to
17· · put a lot of effort in because I'm assuming he had
18· · been there before.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you indicated that you
20· · left that residence?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if -- did either you or your
23· · father collect any phones from that residence?
24· · · · A.· ·I did not go in.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know if there was any

·2· · shell casings collected at that residence?
·3· · · · A.· ·I don't know.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Not by you?
·5· · · · A.· ·Well, again, I didn't go in, so --
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Then you indicated you drove back
·7· · past where George had pulled off; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who was driving at that point?
10· · · · A.· ·I was.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said something, like, I
12· · don't know if he flashed his lights.· Who were you
13· · referring to?
14· · · · A.· ·I was referring to my father.· I cannot
15· · remember specifically, but I believe he did flash
16· · his flashlight out --
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis?
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Either he knows or he
20· · doesn't, Judge.
21· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· That's the way we argued it
22· · before.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·He flashed what out the window?

·2· · · · A.· ·A flashlight.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What kind of flashlight did your
·4· · dad have with him that night?
·5· · · · A.· ·I cannot remember.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you have a flashlight at all?
·7· · · · A.· ·I don't believe I did.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know if George had a
·9· · flashlight that night?
10· · · · A.· ·I don't know.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Then when you got back to
12· · Chris Senior's, where did you park the vehicle?
13· · · · A.· ·In the same spot that I had pulled it out
14· · of.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that you locked
16· · the door and put the keys inside?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Of Chris's truck?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Right?· Did you reenter his residence at
21· · that time?
22· · · · A.· ·No.
23· · · · Q.· ·And you indicated then you got in the
24· · original vehicle that you arrived in; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And who was driving at that point?
·3· · · · A.· ·My dad.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And who was in the back seat at that time?
·5· · · · A.· ·I was.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where was George?
·7· · · · A.· ·In the passenger seat.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And where did you go to from there?
·9· · · · A.· ·Back to our house at Peterson.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you have any recollection as
11· · to approximately what time it would have been then?
12· · · · A.· ·Leaving Chris Senior's or being back to
13· · our house?
14· · · · Q.· ·At the point that you got back to the
15· · Peterson Road.
16· · · · A.· ·I believe it was 4:00, 4:30ish something.
17· · · · Q.· ·4:30 a.m. or p.m.?
18· · · · A.· ·A.M.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, I think this is
21· · probably a good time to break for the day.
23· · · · · · ·We will recess until tomorrow morning at
24· · 9:00 o'clock.
·1· · · · · · ·You're going home this evening, ladies and

·2· · gentlemen, so the admonition is that you not
·3· · discuss this case among yourselves or with anyone
·4· · else; that you not permit anyone to discuss this
·5· · case with you or in your presence; that you not
·6· · form or express an opinion concerning this case;
·7· · that you do no research at all concerning this case
·8· · concerning the facts or the law of the case from
·9· · any source at all; that you not read, view, or
10· · listen to any reports or accounts of the case from
11· · any source at all, including, of course,
12· · newspapers, television or radio, but also including
13· · Facebook and any other social networking sites, any
14· · Internet sites.· You're to refrain from all of
15· · that.· And that you not have any contact with any
16· · of the participants in the case including the
17· · parties, counsel, or witnesses.
19· · further they wish to place on the record before we
20· · recess until tomorrow morning?
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, can we approach for
22· · one moment?
23· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· We don't have anything,
24· · Your Honor.
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.

·5· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I just would like the
·6· · Court to instruct there be no contact with the
·7· · witness.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No contact with the witness
10· · too.
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He's going back to
12· · Franklin County Jail.
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I don't know where he's
14· · going.
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· There be no --
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Contact by whom?
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· By the prosecutor or Jake's
18· · attorneys.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· They also will not have
20· · contact, Your Honor.
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· That's what I needed.· Thank
22· · you.
·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, of course, as the
·3· · witness remains on the stand, so -- counsel is
·4· · instructed to have no contact with the witness
·5· · until tomorrow morning when he's on the stand
·6· · again.
·7· · · · · · ·Is there anything further until we adjourn
·8· · for tomorrow morning?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.· Thank you very much.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Anything further from the
11· · State today?
13· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· We have nothing.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· We are adjourned
15· · until 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.
16· · · · · · ·Please leave your notepads on your seats.
17· · Wear your badges home and come back tomorrow
18· · morning and assemble at the jury room at
19· · 9:00 o'clock.
20· · · · · · ·(Jury exited the courtroom.)
21· · · · · · ·(Court adjourned at 4:29 p.m.)
22· · · · · · · · · · · · ·* * * * *
23
24
·2· · COUNTY OF PIKE, to wit:
·3
·4· · · · · · ·I, Jo Ann Betler, RDR, do hereby certify
·5· · that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript
·6· · of excerpts of the proceedings had in STATE OF OHIO
·7· · VS. GEORGE WASHINGTON WAGNER, IV, Action No.
·8· · 18-CR-155, on Monday, October 24, 2022, was
·9· · correctly taken by me in Stenotype and that the
10· · same was reduced to computer print by me or under
11· · my direct supervision.
12· · · · · · ·Given under my hand this 30th day of
13· · November, 2022.
14
15
16
17· · · · · · · · · · · ________________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · Jo Ann Betler, RDR
18· · · · · · · · · · · Official Stenographic Reporter
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: 0'riley..92
0 2 3
0'riley 82:5 2 114:7 3/8 85:20

2,000 87:9,10 3/8s 84:15
1
20 16:5 162:7 163:1 3122 9:24 10:3 12:10
1/2 117:20,23 2000 87:13 3:00 163:2 206:10
1/2s 133:2 2008 18:21 3rd 98:18 100:20,22
10 97:15 117:20,23 133:2 2010 38:19 40:5 41:17
220:23 4
2013 42:22 154:19
1022 69:15,19,24 71:2 72:1,10 2014 19:3 4 114:7
179:18,20
2015 44:8 47:9 49:14,22 53:15 4-H 38:20 39:3,6,13
11 117:20 133:2 62:9 75:20 78:7 92:23
40 69:21 73:3,6,23 76:3 95:17,
110 9:23 12:8 2016 18:24 21:11,13 62:10 21 96:8 116:19,23 147:10
112 9:15 11:21 12:4 64:7 81:18 83:10 88:12 92:23 191:9 192:16
93:24 99:13,20 100:20 101:19
11:30 88:14 4:00 224:16
2018 15:7
12-hour 7:6 4:30 224:17
2018-CR-155 3:10 11:10
12:30 89:6 90:2,22 4:30ish 224:16
2022 3:1 12:8
13 18:24 40:3 4th 150:11
22 73:1 75:22 84:14 177:22,23
13th 15:7 179:17,22,23 180:5 181:23 4x8 112:11
14 58:15 22nd 88:12
5
14th 87:20 2308 185:20 186:12
15 58:15,16 134:11 162:7 2309 187:8 50 96:9 140:10
1500 87:9,11 2311 188:3 50/50 53:8
15th 12:8 2312 188:14 52 15:13
16 6:8 42:19 58:16 99:13,19 24 3:1
16th 93:24 6
26 81:18
17 18:24 40:6 260 16:13 17:9,17 6258 113:11
17th 100:5 26th 81:21 6259 113:24
18th 42:22 27/46 85:20
1911 69:21 72:21 73:1,22 7
27/64 85:16
74:5,20 75:21 81:24 86:4
116:11,12,14 118:15 121:11 28th 82:1 772 172:22 217:11 218:7,23
135:15 137:18 146:10,17 29 14:14
174:9 177:23 179:17 180:5 7th 11:22 101:17
192:13 29th 82:22 83:10
1911s 119:15 2:30 42:22 9
1st 75:20 84:16 85:2 87:19 2nd 85:23 87:19

90 87:13
2x4 112:6,8,9 114:2,4,15
911 95:14
122:24
92 69:16
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: 9:00..assume
9:00 124:13 224:24 additional 4:17 anticipating 33:24
9mm 85:19 address 9:24 10:10,13 12:10 anticipation 115:23
17:24 124:11,12
9th 101:19 apologize 181:14
addressed 10:11 12:14
apparently 190:11
A addressing 12:12
appearance 159:6
advance 102:3
A-169 183:23 184:3 appeared 184:9
affect 143:18
A-246 184:24 appears 185:9
affected 143:22
A-544 163:18 appliances 34:20
afternoon 42:23 115:15,19
A-55 183:11 apply 205:13
162:23
a.m. 206:10 224:17,18 approach 56:1 76:18 88:18
age 22:17
178:2,11
ability 177:20 agreed 66:3
approached 56:3 76:20 88:20
abrupt 52:14 agreeing 66:10 178:14
abruptly 52:17 agreement 5:6 10:13 51:11 approximately 18:20 44:6
absence 3:20 47:5 64:5 65:21 82:20 89:18
ahead 20:1 102:3 118:20
124:10 134:6,10 135:7 157:13
Absolutely 7:11 151:4 183:10 185:14 189:10
162:6 164:13 224:11
210:5
acceptable 203:7 April 21:13 87:18 88:12
aim 143:9
accessory 74:4 81:24 100:20,22 101:17,19
aimed 144:3
accidental 20:20 area 87:19 113:17 135:20
air 198:11 138:3 165:17 166:17 167:3
accompany 42:2 189:24 192:23 193:1,4 202:20
AK-STYLE 131:16 211:21,24
account 30:5,7,11,12 83:2
90:14 100:6 allegedly 102:11 argued 45:21 222:21
accounts 30:2,4 162:18 allowed 27:8 argument 44:22 45:13 46:3
accurate 27:16 147:2 aluminum 70:9 71:7,21 80:14 47:3 64:24 65:5
acting 45:8 161:10 Amazon 70:23 71:17 100:5 arm 146:3
action 57:24 58:2 70:15 America 101:19 arms 52:8
actions 45:10 ammunition 177:22 arrangement 139:2
actively 130:2 amount 106:20,21 208:22 arrangements 14:11
activities 35:24 amplification 8:17 arrested 15:6,9,11
activity 169:8 204:24 amusement 23:4 arrived 123:10 134:18 136:21

157:18 164:14 217:3 223:24
actor 119:14 121:8 and/or 34:9 54:4 89:5 153:22
arrow 113:16,17
actor's 108:7 Andrew 3:15 11:15 48:7
asleep 127:18,21 174:17
actual 20:13 46:12 96:10 Angela 3:15 11:15 17:5,6 182:12 190:6,7 191:13 194:14
153:24 154:1 191:2 Angela's 56:12 aspect 34:18 35:6 63:2
Adams 10:4 16:14 anonymity 89:12 aspects 26:13,17 149:16
adapter 81:23 100:14 answering 50:22 assemble 90:23
added 193:1 answers 5:12 132:9 asserted 56:8,20 58:1
addition 3:11 102:1 114:15 anticipate 4:21,24 assume 95:8 116:24 176:4,6
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: assumed..bit
assumed 50:24 165:7 166:3,14 168:5,6,15,21, BBB-2 85:5,9 93:21 98:17
23 169:1 171:23 172:5,12
assuming 6:2 144:1 221:17 BBB-3 99:24 100:3
173:18,19,21,22,23 174:11,18,
assumption 203:20,21 19,20 175:4,5,11,16,18 176:1, BCI&I 11:16
2,6 182:4,5,21 186:2,6,11
attach 96:1 bearing 67:3
189:10,12,24 191:4,5,6,19,21
attached 36:5 74:18 197:21 198:5,6 199:12 204:2 beat 215:20
205:18 206:1 208:14 212:18,
attaching 74:12 23 214:24 216:7,13,17,19,20 bed 111:7,9,11 112:5,10,13,
217:1 222:6 223:11 224:4,9, 16,19 114:14 116:9,10 122:12,
attempt 214:15
12,14 19,21 133:10,11 134:4 135:4
attended 23:23 24:2 145:24 153:15,18 158:21,23
background 34:8 174:15 190:7 191:21 194:19
attention 13:2 38:10 81:17,18 199:8,12 200:14 209:19 217:3
85:10 92:11 93:22 123:15 bad 8:13 49:9 58:16
baffle 80:22 bedcover 111:3,5
attitude 45:9,11,12
baffling 81:9 bedroom 51:5 127:21 152:5,6
attorney 3:14 4:4 11:14 53:7, 153:11,12 157:22 158:2,17
13 baggie 117:8 174:4 191:2,7 193:6 196:19
attorneys 3:15 5:9,15 11:12, 199:24 202:22
bailiff 3:12
15
bedrooms 151:22 152:8,10,
Bainbridge 38:8 40:20
auto 82:5,7 12 190:4 212:1
bald 164:23 165:17,18
average 27:7 begin 12:24 124:11
ballistic 177:21
avid 26:12 beginning 92:23 207:24
bank 30:2,4,7,18
awaiting 137:22 behavior 61:19
barefoot 125:4,21
awake 127:22 176:13 177:6 belief 177:20 178:20
190:8 194:4,5 barely 143:22 165:7 212:8
believed 58:2 194:14
aware 4:15 6:24 8:10 47:12,20 barn 38:20 111:21,23 115:10
belonged 69:17,24 73:3
55:4,12,14 56:20 57:18 59:20 123:21 125:2,4,23 126:4,11,
73:19 76:5 93:5 95:3 99:13,21 13,14 127:12 131:22 140:7,11 belonging 75:22 77:7
110:11 112:15 119:2 122:1
barrel 70:10,13,14 72:7,17,18 bench 56:3 76:20 88:20
128:9 129:2,13 140:12 207:17
73:13,17 74:3,17 81:23 96:1,2 178:14
100:16 131:14
Beretta 69:16,19 72:1,2
B
base 50:3 73:12,16,20 84:15 100:16
B-24 185:16,19,21 186:11 based 84:10 159:6,14 Beretta's 73:13
B-25 187:4,8 basically 27:10 30:16,21 bet 89:24

45:13,16,20 46:3,13 47:1,3
B-27 187:24 188:2 Bethel 16:1,4,6,12 18:10,17
64:9 74:13 79:11 114:20
21:1 37:14,17,18 41:4 43:16
B-28 188:11,14 152:24 198:8
big 145:2
baby 46:7 177:7 190:15 basis 55:22 60:2,14 76:17
119:20 165:1 222:18 bigger 75:8 186:9
babysitting 49:8
Bass 28:17,22 29:2,5,20 Bill 17:1,2
back 35:13 39:22 86:13 90:2 101:11,15
119:5 123:12,18,22 133:18 Billy 17:2,3 41:12
134:21,23 135:1,8,11,13 bathroom 89:21
biological 110:5
137:12,14 138:2,3,10 142:11, battery 207:23
13,24 143:2 146:8,15 149:18 birth 109:15
150:10 151:23 153:11 154:18, Bay 84:22
birthday 48:1
24 156:12,14,18,19,20,23 BBB-1 81:10,14
157:5,8,17,21 158:17 160:24 bit 28:19 31:13 58:5 78:19
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: bits..cameras
84:9 85:13 90:3 131:5 216:23 bow 114:21 brown 107:15 108:2
220:13
bowing 114:22 browse 129:23
bits 78:16 79:23 80:16,18
box 82:17,20 bug 99:19
83:14,15,17 84:13
boxed 20:12 build 31:20 112:19
black 39:14 70:8 107:17
155:20 boxes 92:16 building 35:2 39:4,6
Blackish 132:17 boyfriend's 39:12 built 111:23 112:4,16 122:23
140:7
blah 8:6 brain 71:9
bullet 131:14
Blake 150:19 brake 106:15,23
Bulvine 61:17 105:13
blanket 158:13,18,20 185:8,9, brakes 106:22
12 209:16,18 bunny 39:13,16,20,21
brand 98:10
blinded 27:20 burn 72:17,18
brass 101:6 178:18
block 185:6 burned 18:11,14,17 19:5
brat 51:24 52:16
20:23 72:19
blocked 211:22
break 44:2,10 88:14,15,17
burning 18:17
blond 107:24 89:1,6,17,19 90:4 147:8
224:21 business 46:6
blood 158:10 159:6,14
184:13,16 breakdown 146:21 147:1,20 buy 28:23,24 29:1 79:24 80:4
82:16,17,18 93:13 96:24
blowed 63:4 breaks 5:9
97:15,18,20
blue 70:7 71:18,19 83:8 breakup 47:8
blueprint 211:11 breastfeed 195:20 C
blunt 44:24 Brentley 174:16
C-436 211:2,6 213:18
board 46:24 bring 12:20 13:2 77:16 163:10
Cabela's 28:17
bodies 159:4,7,15 185:7 broadcasting 8:17
199:20 cabin 96:9,11,13 106:11
broke 70:15 71:7 72:10 174:2
body 59:17 136:22 155:16 calf 46:5,6
156:6 189:1 194:18 197:8
brokenness 21:20
caliber 80:19 84:11
198:12,18 201:1 207:3,6 brother 15:8,16 16:9,17 17:13
209:16 18:5 19:22 21:8 23:17,23 24:9, California 124:8
11 25:4,10 26:1 28:2,8 29:8 call 13:10,13 34:21 37:23 44:2,
bond 67:10
30:5 31:8 34:6 36:1,24 37:8 5 51:3 94:15 95:14 142:5,21
Boondock 119:11 120:15 40:19 42:1,2 47:13,16 53:5 146:23 221:16
67:11 69:17 87:4 97:1,11
boosted 174:9 called 13:16 48:7 53:9 137:2
101:23 104:21 111:13 112:14
boots 130:17 114:14 116:17 121:18 126:12 182:9
130:22 131:11 133:22,24 calling 79:13
born 42:21,22,24 43:3,4,8,12
135:12,14,17 157:10 161:6,9
52:7 152:21 calm 147:6,7,22
167:15 171:18 189:14 191:8
borrowed 150:13 192:19 193:8,17 200:5 202:3, calmed 47:4 161:13
15
bottom 82:22 85:2,11,22 calves 46:7
100:19,23 brother's 16:10,18 18:2 45:8
54:14 104:11 127:20 203:10 cam 220:6
bought 16:15 19:1 21:6 73:17
79:23 80:16 83:9 97:2,13 98:7, brothers 119:17 camera 149:17 216:3,6 221:8,
8 99:8 100:15 117:13 122:8 14
brought 12:17 65:24 73:10
125:7 131:9,10 132:19,23 cameras 149:12,14 151:1
90:24 91:5 95:5,6,8 162:9
163:7 206:13,14 221:11
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: camper..close-up
camper 215:18 220:12 catcher 79:7,12,14 86:2 choked 44:16,19
100:14 101:6
cancer 154:22 choose 181:2,20
catchers 79:10
Canepa 3:15 4:24 5:4,11,14 chose 45:2 121:19 179:18
6:4,10,12,20 7:6,11,23 8:3 cattle 21:7
Chris 20:17 22:9,10 25:11
11:15 12:19 13:7,12,20,22,24
caused 50:8 146:1 28:3 41:9,15,21 42:1 53:20
31:3 32:11,23 33:15 48:19
67:2,9,17 68:13 123:8,15,21
49:1 55:3,13,24 56:6,12,16 CC-295A 103:1,5
124:6 130:22 134:7,16 137:24
57:3,7,12,17,20,22 58:12
59:18 60:1,4,17 61:6,20 62:7
CC-295B 103:16,19 138:2,4,5,10,24 140:1,23
141:7,10,13,15,21 142:4,5,18
65:17 75:1 77:2,11,21 78:4 CC-295C 104:3,6 143:3,8 144:16,18 145:7
81:3,12 85:7 88:3,17 89:2,9
CCR 14:23 149:15,21 150:2,3 152:16
90:21 91:7,11,13,17,20 97:24
155:10 157:24 158:5,13,18
100:2 103:3,18 104:5 105:17 cell 75:14 93:9 128:6,10 129:3 159:22 160:5,22 161:14 164:4
112:23 113:8,11,13,24 114:1 142:3 157:22 160:8,21 166:23 166:3 167:7 172:5,16,18
118:13 119:24 120:8,21 121:1 167:6,8 175:2 177:13 204:18 183:15,17 184:8,10 185:10
126:24 127:6 128:18,24 205:6,15,19 191:24 193:12 201:13 202:21
129:11,20 132:10 139:18,19
center 92:11 98:18 188:9 204:3 205:14,22 206:22
148:14 159:13,19 160:15,20
207:24 210:1 223:12 224:12
161:19 162:5 163:9,15,16 cetera 93:12
165:4,16,22 169:16 172:10 Chris's 22:14 25:13,15,19
178:2,6,11,21 179:14,15 challenging 164:12 41:19 111:14 124:5 126:1
180:18 181:1,6,19 183:10,12 chambers 3:6,10 130:24 131:3 135:2,19 136:17
184:1 185:14,18,21,23 186:15, 148:17,18 157:21 158:2,23
18,23 187:6 188:2,4,13,16 chance 27:19 142:9 168:23,24 169:1,3,21 173:18,
195:11 196:1,8 202:8 203:1,8, change 43:23 126:7 19 182:21,23 186:6 189:13
13,18 204:1 208:12 210:8 200:8 214:7,24 215:1,2
211:4 217:15 218:5 219:16 character 108:3,5 216:14,18 217:2,8 219:1
222:24 224:20 character's 108:6 223:18
Captain 101:19 Characterized 148:11 Christopher 40:19 67:22
151:12 202:1 210:11
car 97:7,8,9 164:17 183:6 Charlie 47:10,13,17 50:19,20
120:11,13 Christopher's 191:12,13
card 29:2,5,9,18,20 99:1,2,10
202:10,12 213:13,19
101:12,15 cheaper 18:6
circumference 84:10
cards 29:24 checked 189:20 206:9
classify 7:18
care 68:18 88:24 89:4 108:16 Chevrolet 113:5
claw 51:17
carelessness 52:18 Chevy 87:14 216:16,20
clean 18:6 143:10
carrying 39:13 68:7 147:15 Chevy1971diesel@hotmail
83:2,11 client 4:12
Carson 48:7,9
chicken 174:6,7 186:5 client's 3:22
cartridge 181:23
child 42:13,16,20 51:2 52:5 climb 221:4
cartridges 182:1
109:12,15 110:1,2,4,5 176:20 cling 51:15
case 3:8,9 10:12 11:10 12:15 177:3,5
13:5 77:15 90:5,7,8,11,14,16 clip 119:10,13,14,18 120:2,9,
162:11,13,14,15,18,20 199:20 childhood 38:23 23 121:3,6,20
casings 145:18,21 146:5 children 28:9 29:1 41:20 clipped 103:6
175:3 177:11 180:12,20 102:7 127:17
191:19,20 201:7,10,20 202:2
close 8:19 19:7 22:17 24:8
chitchat 39:8,21 31:6 49:10 98:14 126:3 136:3
204:6,15 208:5 209:2,8 222:2
choice 50:11 62:16 89:5 95:24 145:22 206:10
cast 32:17
choices 89:16 close-up 113:19
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: closed..crashed
closed 133:15,16 135:5 concrete 147:5 cosigner 30:11
143:12 144:3,22 145:4
confer 4:22 7:9 cost 21:23 22:1 35:19
Closeish 31:12
conflicts 12:2 couch 174:17 182:12
closer 31:9 66:1 67:10 130:21
confronted 52:2,13 counsel 3:5,12,18 4:15 7:10
141:15
8:19,21 11:4,18 12:16 56:3
connects 190:3
clothed 126:9,23 58:7 76:20 77:23 88:13,20
considered 49:9 89:13 90:17,18 91:4 162:21,22
clothes 117:8 126:7 130:19
163:6,13 178:14 179:5
construction 72:5 192:23
clothing 126:10 127:2,8
193:2,4 211:23 counsel's 8:10,24
131:23 132:16 197:4
constructioned 189:24 county 10:4,5 12:12 14:24
codefendant 6:8 7:18,20
15:3 16:14 37:24 38:19
consult 5:9
collarbone 46:22,23
couple 11:17 25:19 52:11
consultation 5:19
collect 21:17 204:18 206:18 86:15 89:16 135:23 152:22
221:23 contact 90:15 162:19 174:21 190:19
collected 204:6,15 205:7,14 content 57:10 court 3:7,20 4:6,19 5:2,10,12,

222:2 17,21 6:23 7:7,22,24 8:7,23,24
context 196:6 9:22 10:6,19,23 11:3,5,6,8,11,
collecting 202:2 208:5 17 12:6,13,20,22 13:3,8,10,14,
continue 203:6
college 23:24 19 31:1 32:5,9,21 33:14 48:17,
convened 3:17 23 54:20,24 55:11,22 56:2,4,7
color 98:6 107:14 108:2,3 57:5,13,14,19,21 58:4,10,23
132:16 185:11
conversation 5:5 54:17 55:4,
9,20 57:6,17 58:5,14,18,21 59:6,10,22 60:2,13 61:2,12
Colt 73:1 59:2,20 61:22 63:10,15 64:6, 62:3 65:15 76:15,17,19,21
22 65:9,22 92:18,21 148:5,8, 77:9,18,22 78:2 81:1 87:24
Columbus 14:18,19 53:21 88:13,19,21 89:8,11,16 90:22,
13,15 155:9 168:12 169:24
commit 56:9 86:8 24 91:4,9,12 105:16 118:9,12
conversations 54:16 60:10, 119:20,22 120:19 126:17,19
committed 66:21 88:7 19 61:10 127:5 128:13,15,21 129:6,9,19
committing 106:1 107:2 convince 77:4 132:4,7 139:14,16 148:12
159:10,17 160:16,18 161:17
common 30:22 101:13 coops 186:5 162:3,6,9 163:1,6,10,13 165:1,
communication 4:4,11 copy 4:6 7:4 8,11,19 169:15 172:9 178:1,4,
7,13,15,17 179:2,8,11 180:16,
company 35:16,18 36:7 85:3 Corey 47:18,22 49:11 51:5 22 181:7,11,15 186:17,20
66:20,22 210:17 195:6,9 196:4 202:5,24 203:4,
comparisons 177:21
corner 84:17 93:23 94:2 100:4 11,16,23 208:9 210:4 217:13
compartment 111:12 114:13 218:2 219:12,15 222:18,23
167:18
complaints 7:5 224:22
correct 8:3 9:21 10:24 12:4,5
completely 4:13 5:5 121:21 26:3,6 29:18 30:2 43:10 47:20 Court's 3:5 6:24 9:18 12:1
126:7 135:4 198:23,24 71:16,18 72:21 73:4 74:2,21 courtroom 3:4 5:15,19 12:21
76:11 78:8 87:22 95:17 103:14 91:1,8 163:3,12
composed 75:14 104:17 109:12 131:24 133:3,
concern 6:11 33:21 19 136:4 137:9,19 138:24 cousin 50:15
142:21 143:16,17 155:6,10 cousins 52:11
concerned 5:20 50:1 199:21 161:24 166:19,23 177:14
concerns 49:14,15,21,24 184:17 187:14 192:14 193:12, cover 111:6 122:12 159:1
50:4,8 52:21 53:1 62:1,11 13 194:2 195:3,13,22 196:10 209:22
180:3,11,19 197:24 199:24 200:9 206:16 covered 219:11
218:4 219:2 222:7 223:24
conclude 159:15 covering 209:11
correctly 73:8
conclusion 10:12 crashed 21:16
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: credit..directional
credit 18:5 29:2,5,9,18,20,24 190:8 191:7 195:22 196:10 defendant's 9:16 11:23
99:1,2,10 198:15,18 199:24 202:21
defense 3:18 5:17 6:18 8:21,
203:10 204:3,7,21 206:24
Creek 38:7 40:20 24 9:19 11:22 12:3,4,8 13:8
209:7,24 211:11 212:23
crib 152:22 153:5,10 208:2 214:20 217:1 deliberate 185:5
214:11,12,17
dark 27:17 107:24 108:2 117:7 deliberation 90:10
crime 76:24 220:19
denied 77:20
crimes 77:17 darker 108:2 131:23
depart 8:16
cry 190:12 Daryl 108:6
depended 33:18
crying 195:2,12 date 15:5,9 75:15,17 85:23
99:14,22
describe 31:22 33:20 35:5
curious 4:9,20 44:21 50:13 83:19 121:10
dated 47:17 93:24 187:18 188:22 190:16 195:15
curtain 208:15
197:18,22 218:19
dating 40:23 41:6,24 149:20,
custody 59:8,16 61:16 102:7, 24 151:20 describing 110:18 121:3
18 103:10,24
184:15
daughter 15:16 16:9 17:14
cut 44:10 42:24 43:8,12 49:8,16,22 50:2 destroyed 69:19 70:2,5 72:7
Cutters 85:12 51:4 52:7,18 97:11 105:9
detail 129:8
152:20 153:16,19 154:1
Cutting 84:22
daughter's 48:1 63:6 detector 99:19 216:8,10
determine 96:4
D day 4:3 6:14 11:8 12:24 45:11
64:19 97:20 115:17,20,24 devices 206:19,22
da 8:5,6 119:6,7 125:16 193:22 224:21
diagonal 140:10
dad 16:8 25:9,11 34:9 41:20 days 115:2,16
diagram 213:18
68:11 94:23 95:5 107:8 108:15 dead 59:17 108:4 207:23
111:14 118:2 119:5 122:13 dialogue 92:16
123:10,15 124:2,4,11 125:3 deal 12:15 52:20 65:2
diameter 80:19
130:21 131:3 134:19 135:11 dear 164:8
138:2,3,9 140:1,22 141:7,13, die 78:17,23 79:23 84:18
20,21 142:2,5,16,24 143:2 death 199:22 100:7
146:20 147:13 157:6,10 161:1, debt 29:18,24 dies 78:16
6,9 166:2 167:21,24 169:12,23
171:20 174:5,8,11,19 175:6, debts 29:15 diesel 24:1
12,15 183:3 191:8 192:16 decade 131:10 differed 8:1
200:3,7 202:20 207:16 213:20
214:1,3 215:16,19 216:6,20 decide 33:11,16 84:8 differently 63:21
219:19,21 221:15 223:4 224:3 decided 62:14,16 68:11 73:24 difficult 9:1 24:15 165:12
dad's 93:14 110:16 202:15 108:23
difficulty 14:7
Daddy 51:19 decision 62:10,19 68:5
169:22 digital 113:10,11,23
dairy 46:5,6
decisions 61:24 dingdong 119:15 120:15,24
damage 21:19 121:5
dedication 46:9
Dana 41:9 51:23 52:16 67:18 direct 13:23 163:14
151:11 152:16 154:2 172:1 deep 52:6
directing 8:24 81:18 85:10
190:3,19 191:4,19,24 194:1 deer 26:18 27:2,7,17 42:9
196:16,21 197:9 198:4,17 direction 166:14,15 191:9
204:24 212:14 214:6 deer's 27:18 196:24 215:7,8 217:11 218:12
Dana's 153:23 169:4 170:10 defendant 3:4,9,13 10:23 directional 8:14
171:7,8,13 182:24 189:12 11:11
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: directions..entry
directions 218:16 drag 159:21 edge 168:8
directly 100:17 182:18,19 drill 78:16,19 79:23 80:16 education 23:24
220:13 83:14,15,17 84:2,9,13 85:13
Edward 3:3 13:16 14:2
dirt 167:3 drilled 78:20
EEE-2 97:22 98:2
discern 169:9 drilling 80:17
Efficiency 31:24
disconnected 156:16 Drills 85:12
efficient 34:2
discover 168:2,10 173:12 drive 134:7,12 148:20,22
effort 69:21 115:4,7 221:17
149:1,3 156:16,18 157:3,5,17
discovery 199:20
166:21 171:8 216:2 efforts 184:20
discretion 109:1
driven 173:8 either/or 193:6
discuss 3:24 31:17 32:13
driver 35:16 ejected 145:19
90:5,6 162:11,12
driver's 135:16 217:21 ejecting 131:13
discussed 7:8 60:5 193:14
217:20 driveway 87:6 155:2 171:9 elaborate 50:23
180:20 189:17 215:10,14
discussion 33:5 elbow 146:2 195:18,19
218:22
distance 106:21 eloquently 6:14
driving 25:2 36:10 106:20
distrusted 131:15,19 122:15 123:11 167:12 171:19, else's 83:3
20 173:9 183:1 215:1 216:21
Dixon 108:6 217:8 219:1 222:9 224:2 email 8:9 83:2
document 102:17 103:5,7,10, drop 109:19 150:20 152:20 emotional 146:22
14,20,24 104:9 105:4,8
drop-offs 53:24 54:5 employees 30:19
documents 102:3,22
dropped 153:22 enclosed 133:18 135:4
dog 136:17 174:7
drove 111:14 172:2 214:24 end 22:4 32:15 33:3,17 44:13
dogs 174:8 215:3,4 217:5 222:6 53:15 71:6 74:4 92:23 215:14,
15 218:22,23
door 50:21,22 63:8,13 96:11 drug 50:12 61:18 124:7
124:19 138:7 140:9 141:16 ended 70:14
144:21,22 145:1,2 155:23 due 121:22
156:3,15,19,22 167:22,24
engine 21:19,20 22:1
duly 13:17
168:7 170:5 173:23 174:2,18, engineering 24:1
19 175:7,11,17,23 176:2,9 dumpster 72:14,19
182:4 183:22 186:2,13,19 engines 23:5
dye 107:11,14,21,23 108:1
189:20 190:4 191:7,10,13 enter 192:10
199:24 200:2 201:21 202:11,
12,15,17,21 211:18,19 213:6 E entered 3:4 141:20,22 155:9
214:23 215:20,21,22 216:5,18, 187:15 188:5 191:1,23 200:11,
19 220:3 223:16 13 201:4 209:24 210:12
earlier 92:22 115:15 119:6 211:17
doorknob 182:9 138:23 158:4 208:3
entering 210:16
doors 214:8,15 early 19:3 58:15,16 62:10
87:13,18 89:18,24 90:1 115:19 enthusiast 36:22 37:1,4
doorway 143:3,4,8 144:19 208:19
145:9,10 earlyish 21:11
entire 207:20
double-check 53:18 earned 29:6
entitled 5:23 6:8,12 7:17,21
downstairs 4:8 156:23 157:5 ears 39:14 11:23 12:9
dozen 151:15 easier 214:16 entry 81:19 138:7 199:5
dozens 151:14 187:12 echoing 98:16 219:8,23 220:1
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: equal..find
equal 53:10 extent 53:2,3 father 15:9,22 17:15,16 19:23
21:8 24:21 28:8 29:8 31:11
equipment 116:5 eye 27:18
34:6 36:1,24 37:8 41:12 53:5
error 69:18 eyelets 112:10 113:15 62:22 63:10,14 65:6,23 66:2,9
68:16 69:22 73:3,10,16 76:6
evening 116:4 119:10 124:14 eyes 45:7 51:19 143:12 144:3 96:11 115:13 116:24 119:1
205:17 145:5
130:5 133:16 137:11 147:19
event 108:16 148:5,9,16 155:9 161:12
F 167:15 168:2 171:18 175:19,
events 68:17 24 189:13 192:10 193:9,17,18
eventually 40:23 face 191:10 202:3 203:9 213:7 219:5
221:23 222:14
evidence 56:8 Facebook 45:12,14 54:8
129:23 130:3 194:9 father's 15:22 16:22 69:16
ex-wife 16:10 17:13 45:8 109:1 112:20
54:14 facing 46:20 199:13 220:9
FCC1 14:23
exact 63:1,3 132:6 fact 68:12 86:19 102:13
105:24 149:7 180:19 208:18 FCCR1 14:23
examination 13:23 163:14
factory 78:22 fear 52:7
examine 13:19
facts 90:12 162:16 fearful 52:22
exception 57:16
failed 72:12 86:15 February 44:8 47:9 81:18,21
excerpts 3:2 82:1,22 83:10
exchange 150:12 failures 86:16
feel 24:20 123:23 143:10
Excuse 49:19 fair 30:20 38:2,19 40:16 79:2
136:5 208:22 feet 96:9 133:7 135:23 188:24
execute 102:2 220:23
fairs 23:4 42:8
executed 105:24 fell 191:21 197:21 204:12
fall 146:2
Exhibit 74:23 75:3 81:10,14 felt 11:18 62:16
85:5,9 91:18,24 93:21 97:22 fallen 199:8
fence 31:20
99:24 100:3 103:1,16 104:3,6 false 111:3,4,11 112:5,13,15,
112:21 113:6,21 120:6 163:18 19 122:12,21 217:3 fencing 35:2,13,15,17 174:7,8
183:23 185:16,19 187:4,8,24 festivals 23:4 42:10
188:2,11,14 211:2,6 familiar 79:1,3 92:19 210:21
211:7 fiancée 25:20 28:3
exit 79:19 182:3,4 214:19
familiarity 170:16,18 figured 45:6 125:24
exited 91:1 163:3 189:19
202:10 219:19 family 16:8 19:19 23:1 25:13 filed 4:14 11:22 12:7
28:5,6,15 29:23 30:14 31:14,
expect 192:3,5,6 17 32:1 33:23 34:5 38:10,12, filing 10:3
expedition 124:8 14 52:4,24 53:4 54:8 59:19 filled 51:20
60:6 77:14
expensive 21:19 filter 74:6,10 143:15 145:12
family's 76:9
experience 79:5 131:19 filters 74:1 80:14 86:5
209:1 farm 19:12 31:24 33:24 34:22,
24 37:17 46:2 final 33:22 72:4 79:17,18,19
experts 177:21 116:1
farmer 35:13
explain 18:4 21:5 35:8 78:17 finally 39:19 90:9
178:3,12 198:21 199:18 Farms 17:22
finances 28:20
expound 51:10 fashion 12:14 69:23 70:19
78:13 86:4 95:16,20 100:15 financial 31:23
express 90:8 162:14 find 48:6 142:17 170:13 192:3,
fashioning 86:14
extended 96:1 148:8,12 198:7 6 201:12
fast 198:4
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: fine..gentlemen
fine 10:18 follow-ups 196:15 friendship 67:10
finger 67:1 food 26:20 front 8:19 9:5 63:12 71:6 74:3,
6,12 75:4,7 81:24 91:23 96:2
finished 23:20 foot 27:21 83:20
134:19 135:15 136:1,14,16,17
fire 19:11,20 20:3 21:9 48:1 force 219:8,23 138:4,7 140:9,19 141:3,8,16
144:21 147:5 155:17 161:1
firearm 70:8 73:15 118:17 forced 220:1 167:21,24 169:10 170:5
131:20 177:20 209:6
forearm 46:22 195:17 171:22 175:15 182:4 183:15
firearms 68:19 69:11,13 189:19,22 202:12,17 211:18,
forensicable 181:24 19 213:23 215:18 216:4
75:15 80:11 116:5,7 131:16
133:13 forest 154:22 220:13
fired 96:5,12 131:13 143:13 forget 63:1 155:4 161:3 frontish 138:6
144:15 181:3,21 198:4,11
forgotten 71:10 froze 190:10,13
204:16
Fork 155:1 172:23 173:1,2,3,4 frozen 195:2 212:3
fires 20:19,20
215:5,9,15 217:23 218:4,10,23 frustrated 46:19
firing 139:22 181:23 198:7
form 51:21 58:11 90:8 162:14 frustration 72:17
fish 38:4,5
forms 55:15 56:9 fryer 19:14
fished 23:3
foundation 55:1 58:5 178:8 fuel 34:20 36:2,3,6,7,8 74:1,9
fishing 40:20,21 203:6
fully 111:9
fit 78:22 134:3 four-wheeler 154:20
functioning 207:18
fitting 73:14 74:6,16 133:22 four-wheelers 23:3
furthest 153:11
fix 21:19,23 22:2 four-wheeling 42:6,8
future 64:20 73:18
fixed 22:1 frame 196:4
flag 121:11 frank 45:1 62:15 177:17 G
flagged 155:3 Frankie 40:15,17 42:2 67:3,17
68:13 150:15,16,17 151:5 garage 123:17 140:19,20
flash 215:22 222:15
174:24 176:11,16,24 206:14 148:20 150:11,14,23 156:14,
flashed 216:12 222:12 223:1 15
Frankie's 151:10 161:4,24
flashlight 27:18 70:21 71:14 166:19 167:2,11,16 168:18 Gary 67:21 138:16,17,23
72:11 80:3,14 81:5 86:2 169:7 172:6 173:21 174:13,20 139:4 140:1,23 141:7,13,21
216:12 222:16 223:2,3,6,9 175:19 182:4,11,16 187:9 157:24 158:13,18 159:22
206:12 207:3 160:22 166:3 167:7 185:10
flashlights 70:20 78:15 80:5
83:5 Franklin 15:1,3 151:12 Gary's 157:22 205:14
flip 205:23 Frazier 3:12 gasp 196:21 198:9,10
floor 8:22 122:12 158:10,14 Frederick 38:20,22 39:9 gasping 190:21
181:12 184:14,17 48:15,21 49:6
gates 35:2
flow 26:24 Fredericka 17:20
gathering 150:21
fluffy 39:14 freeze 81:8,9 82:3,12 83:13
84:7 general 33:23 34:18 35:6 55:8
fly 209:5 63:2 64:16 115:6 131:19
frequently 154:17 211:11
Flying 17:22 37:16
friend 25:12 38:23 48:7 Generally 32:14
focusing 92:10 93:22
150:17 210:2
follow 91:21 generic 71:5,14 78:15
friends 25:14,16 48:12 154:21
follow-up 196:2 210:11,13 gentlemen 12:23 89:17
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: George..head
George 3:8 11:9 16:19,23 grips 73:20 handgun 209:4
22:18,20,22 25:8,9 26:12 34:9
ground 164:23 165:17 hands 188:23 194:7
54:4 76:1 77:3 102:2,21,22
105:12,14 107:10 108:20 grow 123:17,21 138:2,10 hanging 40:17
117:14,24 118:2 119:1 122:16 140:2,5,21 148:19 149:1
Hanna 16:10 17:14 25:19
123:11 125:3,8 131:22 132:11 150:22 157:14 166:3,5 170:6
38:14,15 39:3,6,9,12 40:1,7,9,
133:8,17 135:21 137:6,17,18 184:11 216:1,5,6 219:20,23
16,19,24 41:6,17,24 42:12,16
139:8 141:10,16 143:7 146:8, 220:2,14 221:13
43:1 44:16 47:9,17 48:15,21
16 148:1 157:6 160:24 167:24
171:23 175:9,12 192:10
growing 22:23 49:8 50:1,19 51:11,24 52:2,10,
13,17 53:11 54:1,18 55:6,18
202:20 213:10,20 214:2 215:2, grows 140:13
57:8,15 59:2,8 61:23 62:17
13 216:13,15,21 217:2,6,7
218:19 222:7 223:8 224:6 grunt 191:16 63:23 64:2 65:1,5 66:4,10,19,
22 67:1,5,17 68:12 102:10,19
George's 21:12,24 99:1,10 guess 4:10 7:16 21:13 34:20 105:5,6 109:12,20 110:4
37:23 44:2,5 45:1 46:4 48:10
149:12,20 150:20 151:11,12
GG-6 91:17,18,24 49:14 51:3 52:2,19 62:15 84:1
152:16 153:24 154:19,20
89:10 92:10 117:5 118:15
Gilley 47:10,13,17 190:3,13,23,24 191:5,20,24
136:7 140:4 142:4 145:2
194:12 195:16 196:16 198:8,
give 58:4 89:4 97:13 113:19 146:22 149:18 153:3 179:18
13,17 199:8 204:3,7,10,21
129:8 142:9 153:23,24 154:1,3 183:9 186:10,12 190:1
208:2 213:3 214:7
glad 92:12 guidance 26:24 Hanna's 50:15 52:5 56:16
glance 174:12 gumption 121:24 102:11,13 103:13 105:4
151:19 153:14 190:5 191:19
Glock 69:21 73:3,6,23 76:3 gun 36:21 76:6,10 77:2,3,10 194:20 197:24 199:2 208:6
95:17,21 96:8 116:19,23 131:6 174:9,11 179:19 181:2 211:11 212:18
147:10 192:16 208:19
Hannah 47:13 174:23 175:1
gloves 117:7,18 130:14 guns 37:3,5 76:8 77:9,19 176:11,16 207:6
131:24 132:14 121:8
happen 22:11 52:9,22 63:7
Gold-plated 121:11 gunshots 144:10,12 68:15 102:8,18 105:6,13
good 11:6,7 12:22,23 30:22 Gus 87:3 happened 18:23 52:10,11,23
53:14 92:12,13 131:17 224:21
guy 121:5 73:12 92:22 105:10 134:18
Googled 120:15,16 135:10 141:12 142:1,7 146:19
guys 28:14 35:9 43:1,9 66:10 197:1 198:3 202:22
gore 197:20 128:6 131:22 138:23 165:6
168:10 171:17 hard 148:20,22 149:1,3
GPS 130:4 156:16,18 157:3,5,17 166:21
grabbed 148:17 197:22 216:2
H
grandfather's 15:20 harmed 63:2
grandmother's 95:7,9 hair 107:11,14,21,23,24 harmful 61:19
108:11,12
grandparent's 37:16 harvest 26:22 27:7
half 70:15 89:3
grandparents' 38:6 harvesting 27:7
hallway 4:8 174:12 190:3
grass 45:16 46:11 146:14 191:2 193:5,8 194:17 196:17 hauling 21:7 35:17
157:7 202:13,18 Havener 15:13
great 86:23 87:1 106:5 115:6 hammer 145:14 hay 111:7,9,13 114:21 123:4
greater 25:23 hand 13:15 46:20,21 75:2 Hazel 47:13 67:21 174:23
Greatlites 71:15 78:23 82:16 98:1 103:4 146:18 175:1 176:11,16,23 177:1
174:11 183:9 184:3,23 198:7
greeted 213:6 Hazel's 207:6
handed 135:15 146:8
grip 121:12 head 25:17 197:10 198:14,20
199:4 201:3 207:5,8
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: headlights..individual
headlights 106:16,20 215:18, holster 147:14 houses 18:18 67:23
24 219:4 220:20
home 15:18 16:16 19:1 24:18 housing 72:6
heads 89:22 28:20 30:22 33:7 48:4 51:14,
hunt 26:8 27:17 37:12,15,21
15,17 63:12 98:19 150:8,10,11
headshot 143:10
152:15 153:9 169:5 170:11,22 hunted 23:2 25:7 37:11
health 26:19,21 172:1,3 173:11,13 174:10
180:12 181:3,21 187:10 189:2,
hunter 26:12
hear 4:2 8:12,23 9:2,7 14:9 13 191:23 193:15 216:22 hunting 25:6,7 26:18 27:12
59:23 96:13 129:21 142:12,20
219:6,9,19 42:9 96:9 118:24 173:24
161:21 165:7,10
homes 172:6 hurt 35:7
heard 9:4 32:5,9 50:11 58:1
98:24 137:10 143:2 144:9 Homeschooled 23:15 hydraulic 36:4
hearing 8:11 13:4 14:7 56:5 homeschooling 23:20 hypothetical 35:10
58:8 76:22 77:24 88:22 89:14
homicide 68:17 94:19
105:19 144:7 178:16 179:6
I
homicides 56:10 88:6 93:4
hearings 6:24
95:12 96:16 102:3,4 106:1,18
hearsay 55:23 57:15 107:11 109:23 115:1 131:2 I's 18:5
193:20 214:14 idea 46:4 66:16,21 67:12 84:1,
held 46:24 47:4 174:9
honestly 45:4 160:10 180:1 2 93:13 106:19 107:9 112:18
helped 29:15 150:13 147:15 160:19 210:1,13,17
Honor 5:1 9:21 11:7 12:18,19
helpful 100:12 13:7,12,20 55:24 65:14 89:7 identification 74:24 81:11
herd 26:19,22 90:21 91:7,11 119:19 127:4 85:6 91:19 97:23 100:1 103:2,
162:5 163:9,15 178:2,11 17 104:4 112:22 113:7,22
hesitant 64:23 180:14,15,21 181:9 195:5,23 120:7 183:24 185:17 187:5
HH-2 74:23 75:3 224:20 188:1,12 211:3
hide 111:13 hoodie 130:7 II 120:15
high 8:20 45:9 hoodies 117:7 III 16:23
high-tone 47:2 horizontal 114:20 illuminate 106:14
highway 171:2 hotmail 100:6 illuminated 106:23
hill 9:24 10:4 12:10 16:1,4,6, hour 89:3 90:3 images 185:7
12 18:10,17 37:15,17,18 41:4 hours 50:22 51:6 89:3 162:6 immediately 66:11,14 99:12
43:16 67:4 172:19 220:12 134:20,22 190:22 198:15
house 17:18 18:1,19,22 42:3
hint 67:1 46:14,17 63:12 94:22 96:10,12 impact 197:19
history 18:6 52:4 110:14 115:9 121:15 124:5,18, improper 77:1,16
21,24 125:1 126:10 127:12,16
hit 106:15 146:1 197:14,16 131:1,3 134:8,16 135:2,14 inappropriate 4:14 51:2
hitting 145:14 136:17 137:12,14 140:8,9,20 incarcerated 14:15,17
141:3,22,23 142:5,13 144:14
hobbies 23:2 146:20 148:17 149:21 153:23 inch 84:14
hold 51:18 73:8 174:8 155:22 156:13 157:21 158:9
incident 44:18,19
160:23 161:4,14,24 166:19
holding 139:11,20 167:17 168:18 169:4,7,10 include 118:17
Holdren 47:18,22 49:11 51:5 173:23 182:18,19,21 184:8
including 90:16 149:15
210:17 187:9 192:24 197:5 207:24
162:20
211:12 215:1,2 218:11,14
hole 78:20,21,24 79:17,18,19 224:9,13 Incorporated 81:19
80:18 84:3 197:20,21
houseable 154:12 indication 4:11
hollered 142:11
household 67:18 individual 35:7 36:6 68:14
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: individually..kind
84:3,5 internal 21:19,20 62:2 76:14,23 80:24 87:23
88:18,23 90:20 105:15 118:8
individually 82:18 Internet 79:11
120:17 126:15 128:12 129:18
induced 109:21 interview 6:6,21 7:19 132:2 139:13 148:10 159:9,16
160:13 161:15 164:24 169:14
infant 176:20 introduced 38:20 172:7 177:24 179:4 186:14
inform 49:7 involved 12:1 61:18 68:6 202:4,23 203:3,15 208:8 210:3
77:15,19 217:12,24 219:10 222:17,20
information 4:17 98:24
120:14 124:4 132:9 issue 10:7,10 12:13 judge's 3:10,12
informed 48:8 50:14 issues 11:19 judicata 56:23,24
inhale 198:10 item 82:1 85:1,3 86:1 93:16,23 judicial 9:23 12:9
94:1,8 95:4,10,12 96:2 99:7,
initial 66:18,21 72:11 84:1 July 150:12
12,16 101:8
191:11 196:15,16 197:15
Junk 3:14 10:5 11:14 35:15
items 20:12,22,24 72:10,13
initially 43:15,17 67:14 69:15,
78:11,12 82:23 83:12 85:10 jurors 90:23
23 74:11 99:9 118:11,15 161:2
86:7,11 93:2 100:19 101:14
176:21 jury 3:21 12:17,20,21,23 56:5
208:14 209:11
58:8 76:22 77:24 88:22,24
initiated 44:9
IV 3:9 11:10 16:19,20 89:4,14 90:2,23 91:1,5,8 162:8
injuries 156:5,6 163:3,7,12 178:16 179:6
Innovations 81:20 J justifying 110:15

inside 12:9 63:11,12 81:4 87:6
94:22,24 96:8,11,12 97:5 Jacob 3:3 13:16 14:2 K
106:11 112:10 116:6 135:2 jail 14:22 15:3
141:23 142:5,13 144:14 150:8 Kenneth 67:3,17 68:13 154:9
155:23 156:3 169:8 182:10 Jake 5:14,23 8:11 13:13 22:23 155:6 172:3,17 215:6 218:11
184:8 196:17 203:10 216:19 29:14 31:4 44:15 58:13 61:21
221:13 223:16 78:11 81:13 120:9 Kenneth's 172:2,5 173:8,10
206:6 215:4,13,15,16,18 216:1
instance 28:7,21 29:17 Jake's 4:1 219:6
instructed 86:18 James 25:12 26:2 key 219:24
instruction 97:12 128:5 130:1 jammer 93:6,8 94:6 207:9,11 keys 148:18 155:13,16,22
instructions 128:10,16 Jams 93:9 156:9,11 158:4 160:5 170:3,5,
129:3,14,21 7 216:19 223:16
Januaryish 64:7
insurance 18:3,5,6 19:11 kick-the-door 168:19
jarred 190:12
20:20 kids 153:3
Jason 163:10
insured 35:22 kill 56:18 62:17 63:23 64:1
Jeans 155:20 66:10,18 67:5,17 68:12
integrity 114:17
Jersey 131:24 132:13,14 killed 66:24 199:1,6 208:1
intended 95:11
jewed 87:11 killing 67:6
intent 108:8
job 45:24 46:11 kind 4:16 32:16 34:24 39:16,
intentional 19:20
jobs 24:23 25:4 17 43:5 50:12 51:21 70:20
intentionally 18:14 20:23 71:12 79:2 87:12 108:16
21:16 John 3:13 11:12 110:11,14 118:22 124:6
joked 149:16 130:16 134:24 164:22,23
interaction 38:13,18 149:11
165:17,18 176:17 188:23
interested 53:12,15 judge 3:11,24 10:21 30:23 190:13,15,17 191:6 192:22
32:4,7,19 33:12 48:16,22 195:2 202:13 223:3
interior 111:23 54:19 55:10,21 56:12 57:10
58:22 59:5,9,21 60:12 61:1,11
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: kinds..longer
kinds 68:7,14 70:21 195:18 209:19 97:14 142:15
kit 98:19 layout 34:1 linger 176:6
kitchen 33:9 104:24 121:15 lazy 45:1 list 75:10,11,14,24 77:3,4,5,
190:1,2 10,14
leading 30:24 31:2 32:7,20
knew 30:19 48:13 68:1 109:11 33:13 48:18 54:21,22 81:2 listed 75:22,24 76:8,10 77:7
138:18,23 149:4,5,6,12,13,14 119:21,22 126:16,18 165:2 78:6
171:5 203:17 172:8 180:16,22 195:24 196:1
listen 90:13 162:17 165:14
knife 118:21,22,24 173:24 leads 52:18
literally 191:10
knocked 50:23 lean 190:13,14
live 15:14 17:9,21 26:5 43:1,9,
knowing 115:23 leaned 141:22,23 142:6 13,20 49:10 131:13 172:18
176:22,24
knowledge 26:23 50:6,10 lived 15:12,24 16:3,6,7,11
54:23 60:2,14 73:17 109:8 learn 36:16,19 115:12 17:12 37:14,20 38:2 48:6,8,10
130:20,24 139:1 67:22,23 138:24 151:5,12
learned 58:6
154:5 155:6 170:23 218:11
Kroger 28:17
leave 46:16,17 124:10,18
lives 172:16,17
Kylee 152:21 153:6,8 190:11 201:23 214:7,15
191:22 195:2,12,20 196:22 livestock 35:3
Leaving 224:12
199:17,22
living 15:19 41:2 154:13
led 149:14
174:15 175:5 192:1,4,6 193:1
L left 16:12 51:6 82:2 101:7 211:21
124:13,23 126:10 127:23
load 35:17
lacks 54:22 133:2 134:13 135:17 138:6
139:4 140:9,10 155:1,23,24 loaded 111:9
ladder 221:5 156:2,3 172:23 173:1,2,3,4
loan 21:17
ladies 12:22 89:17 174:21 182:16 186:12,19
190:18 191:22 197:5 200:13, local 39:24
laid 55:1 16,17 201:22 207:24 209:13
215:5,9,15,18 216:10 217:23
located 12:11 140:5 155:21
Lake 38:7 201:16
218:4,10,23 219:4 221:20
land 4:17 209:3 location 15:15 17:12,17
left-hand 100:4
Lane 15:13 65:12,19 66:24 69:8 123:7
leg 51:18 130:4 139:5 151:6 154:6,10,11
language 59:15 158:3 166:8 168:22 183:8
legal 27:9 53:20
large 27:17 35:18 38:6 70:11 189:16
118:24 153:11 length 83:19
locations 122:3
larger 114:13 lengthy 6:23 7:1
lock 175:7,8 182:8
last-minute 95:24 179:17 level 8:17,20
locked 50:21 51:5 156:19,21,
lasted 47:6 light 186:21,24 22 167:22 168:3,7,11 182:6,10
189:20 201:21 214:23 216:18
lastly 21:12 lightens 107:24
223:15
late 58:15,16 62:9 87:13 147:8 lighting 106:9
locks 36:17,19
law 27:11 90:12 162:16 lights 80:4 106:14,24 169:7,
logical 84:1
13,17 222:12
lawyer 53:18,20,22 long 15:2 16:3 24:6 47:5
likelihood 114:22
lay 4:16 83:22,23,24 89:1 134:6 135:8
likewise 193:11 147:18 154:5,7 157:13 178:23
layers 84:4,5 190:11 199:21
linchpin 56:21
laying 136:23 137:1,4 146:14 longer 145:8,10
174:14 190:6 194:6,22,24 lines 53:16 59:4 62:24 63:22
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: looked..misfunctioned
looked 26:24 156:17 175:22 111:10 112:13 119:15 memory 38:11 85:18 109:24
189:21 190:5,7,20 192:1 185:6
malfunction 69:20 131:15
196:23 198:9 209:8
men 50:12
malfunctioned 72:6 131:18
lost 43:6
mention 9:12
managed 185:4,6
lot 46:8 173:6 212:11 221:17
mentioned 11:18 26:2 62:23
management 26:19
loud 9:4 92:6 149:11
manipulate 205:10
louder 165:7,10 181:13 mess 177:18
Manley 50:16
lounging 194:7 message 56:6,7,21 57:10
manner 203:7 58:17 62:6,8
love 24:11,17
March 84:16 85:2,23 93:24 messages 54:9 61:15
loved 63:6
98:18 99:13,19 100:5
Messenger 194:9
loves 24:13
marijuana 140:13
met 39:3,6 40:16 41:17,19
Lowe's 35:18
marked 74:23 75:2 81:11,14
method 69:7
lower 145:24 85:6,9 91:18 97:23 98:2 100:1
103:2,5,17 104:4 112:22 Mexican 119:14 121:5,8,11
lowered 135:11
113:1,7,22 120:6 183:24
Meyers 4:5,7 5:5 8:10
Lucasville 23:24 184:23 185:16 187:4,7,24
188:11 211:3,5 Meyers' 8:9
lumber 34:20
marketedly 8:18 microphone 8:16,20
lunch 88:15 89:5,17,24 90:1
marks 159:21 microphone's 181:11
M mask 101:19,20 117:17 microphones 165:12
130:12 132:11 197:6
mid 18:24
mad 47:3 masks 117:7 131:23
middle 4:21 80:22 82:22
made 5:23 61:24 66:3,13,16 material 35:3 100:22 113:16 174:4
68:5,8,15 70:9 71:8 79:14 82:8
108:15,19 111:2,6,20 143:15 materials 70:18 midsection 143:13 144:3
145:13 169:22 179:16 190:20 matter 9:13,14 10:8 56:8,15, migration 26:20
191:14 194:16 196:22,23 20 58:1 63:5 64:19
198:10 200:18 mike 8:22 9:5 98:14
matters 11:17
Mae 54:18 55:6 mikes 8:14
means 43:17 49:3 128:14,17
Maglite 70:24 71:8,24 72:11, 137:15
mile 215:14 218:22
14,16 78:14 79:12 80:3 100:14 miles 134:11
meant 33:1 50:24
main 67:24 96:10 108:3 mind 56:12,17 164:6 190:16
measurements 100:11
majority 27:6 28:2,16,18 211:14
37:23 43:2 Mechanic 25:1
mindset 56:11
make 9:1,3 14:10 45:23 46:1, meet 47:22
mine 48:8 52:12 69:16 83:4
12 48:20 51:19 62:10 66:20 meeting 6:16 38:11 39:7 104:10 131:12
68:15 70:17 71:3,23 74:6,9 124:2
78:15 79:12 80:2 84:3,23 86:1 minus 72:13 184:12
94:11,12,14 98:13 106:3 meetings 31:14,17 32:15
33:3,8,17 34:5
minute 161:3
110:22 111:8,16 114:13 115:3
130:2 143:9 165:12 172:20 member 38:12 76:9 77:14 minutes 47:7 135:9 147:21
199:19 212:11 214:16 157:15 162:7
members 25:11
makes 56:17 142:16 misfired 131:12
memorial 154:20
making 29:7 45:3 66:11 71:4 misfunctioned 131:12
82:4,6 101:24 108:18 109:19
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: misheard..objection
misheard 43:5 mount 81:23 22 118:3 121:3,20 122:4 128:7
130:6 131:2 134:13,16 138:18
missed 143:11,24 144:1 move 32:3 33:23 144:1 190:18
139:4 141:1 147:14 149:22
208:7,14
moanish 176:17 150:4,24 152:16 171:4 177:22
moved 17:8 143:7 159:8,15 187:11,16 188:6 205:18
model 87:13,14
190:18 191:11 207:10,20 210:11,14,18
modification 74:11 106:8 214:13,14 223:4,9
movement 173:7 198:24
107:5 111:17,20
nightstand 208:15
movie 119:11
modifications 106:3 110:22 NNN-11 112:21 113:1
111:1 Movies 42:11
NNN-13 113:6,9
modified 75:19 78:8 106:9 moving 33:24 159:3 184:20
208:14 NNN-14 113:20,21
modify 74:16
mow 45:16 nodding 89:22
molestation 52:6
mowing 46:11 noise 96:4 190:21 191:15
molested 50:2 52:18 196:22,23 200:19
mud 23:3
mom 16:8 28:24 60:11,20,21 nonjury 11:19
129:22 multi 99:19
noon 89:3,5,18
moment 45:7 64:15 161:2 multiple 84:3 149:15 150:9,21
190:10 191:11 206:1 151:13 norm 130:10,11
money 19:10 46:12 87:7 murder 150:24 normal 130:9,19
monitoring 54:8,11,16 60:10, murders 86:9,12 87:16,21 Norman 108:7
19,22 61:9,14
muzzle 215:22 North 84:22
month 23:12 66:1 87:21
notice 8:21 9:24 156:5 169:7
months 154:8 N 176:19,21
months-wise 154:8 noticed 8:16 98:15 174:3,16,

named 72:13 108:6 22 177:3 216:8
morning 11:6,7 12:22 91:22
224:23 Napa 85:2 November 15:7 42:22
mother 15:8,16 17:9,19,21 Nash 3:13 10:17 11:12 56:11, nudged 141:17
19:22 24:20 28:8 30:8 31:5 14 222:21
number 3:9 11:10,21 113:11
34:6 51:7 52:11 53:5 54:3,9, nature 55:8,19 145:12 175:2
12,15,18 55:5,6,17 57:8 59:3, 177:15 nursing 170:22
13 60:6,9,18 61:8,23 63:6,16
96:20 102:2,16 103:13 104:20 nearby 136:7,9 221:5
O
105:4,11,22 108:19 117:13 necessarily 20:23 67:20,24
121:18 125:7 127:15,22 128:5, 171:1 189:3,7
10 129:3,14 132:19,23 object 5:18 76:14,16 186:19
neck 197:14,17,21
mother's 15:21,23 17:4,18 objecting 54:20 57:11
needed 22:1 31:20 45:6 116:6
mother-fuckers 120:24 objection 30:23 32:4,19,22
neglected 207:2 33:12 48:16,22 54:19 55:1,10,
motion 4:14 9:17 10:9 11:21, 21 58:10,22 59:5,9,21 60:3,12,
23 12:4,7,8,9,13 190:23 216:8, nephew 15:17 16:10 17:14 14 61:1,11 62:2 65:13 77:22
9 61:17,19 97:11 105:21
78:2 80:24 81:2 87:23 88:1
motions 9:15 nervous 146:21 147:1,20 105:15 118:8 119:19,23
120:17,20 126:15,18 127:3
motive 56:9,15 57:4 net 101:3 128:12 129:18 132:2,5,8
motorcycle 140:20 148:20 Newcomb 22:15 139:13,15 148:10,13 159:9,16
156:14 160:13 161:15 164:24 165:1,
night 96:15 108:17,21,24 15 169:14 172:7 177:24 178:5,
109:5 110:12 115:12 117:6,15, 8,10 179:9,12 180:14,15,17,
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: objects..participate
21,24 181:4,5,6,8,10 186:14 operable 149:8 paid 29:17,22 87:7
195:4,10,23 196:5 202:4,6,23
opinion 32:16 33:4 52:16 90:8 pain 67:8
203:3,5,15,16,22,24 208:8
162:14
210:3 217:12,24 219:10 pains 67:7
222:17 opposed 82:10
paint 38:7 40:20 70:7
objects 136:9 opposite 78:23 131:11 168:6
pair 117:24 119:15 131:10
218:16
observations 159:20 132:18,22
opted 69:20
observe 54:17 138:12 142:23 panel 145:24
143:1 158:8 option 63:23 221:3
panic-attack 146:22
observed 55:5 136:7,8 options 221:2
195:15
panicked 143:12 191:16
order 78:12 82:15,17 85:12
observing 104:19 papers 56:18
96:15 137:24 141:5 196:6
obtain 68:18,20 73:6
213:11 paperwork 53:12,19
ordered 70:23 71:17 83:18 parenting 49:9 53:8,9
obtained 53:7 73:8 74:4 76:6
ordinary 52:1 130:11 parents 18:7 41:6,8,24
occasion 154:14
oriented 32:1 park 154:22 223:12
Occasionally 25:11
original 223:24 parked 115:8 134:19 135:18
occasions 131:1 151:8
164:14 216:14
152:18 outcome 26:21 32:18 33:4,17
occur 108:24 122:4 Parker 3:13,19,22 4:7 5:18,22
outgoing 95:13
6:7,11,18 7:4,16 9:21 10:18,21
occurred 21:10,15 54:17 outings 28:6 11:1,7,12 12:5,18 13:9 30:23
58:14 63:10 64:6 221:7 32:4,7,19 33:12 48:16,22
Over-time 149:11
54:19,22 55:10,21,23 57:1,9
occurring 55:5
overcast 109:3,5 58:22 59:5,9,21 60:12 61:1,11
October 3:1 11:22 62:2 65:13 76:14,16,18,23
overcasted 109:9 77:13 80:24 87:23 88:18,23
odd 53:17
overreacting 52:15 90:20 91:6 105:15 118:8,10
off-and-on 139:1 119:19,21 120:17 126:15,18
overrule 32:21 33:1 61:2 127:3 128:12 129:18 132:2,5
off-brand 70:22 77:22 87:24 118:12 139:16 139:13,15 148:10 159:9,16
159:10 195:9 196:5 202:5 160:13 161:15 162:24 163:8
offenses 107:3
overruled 48:23 58:23 59:6, 164:24 165:2 169:14 172:7
official 32:17 177:24 179:4 180:14,21 181:4,
10 61:12 62:3 65:15 78:3
Oftenish 180:10 105:16 126:19 127:5 128:13, 9,13 186:14 195:4,7,23 202:4,
17 129:19 159:17 160:16,18 23 203:3,15,22 208:8 210:3
Ohio 3:8 11:9,13,16 15:13 217:12,24 219:10,13 222:17,
161:17 165:21 169:15 172:9
16:13 17:22 38:8 91:9 163:13 19
181:15 186:17,20 203:23
oil 74:1,9 86:4 143:15 145:11 208:9 210:4 217:13 218:2 parks 23:4
219:15 222:23
older 22:21 42:1 part 5:19 10:11 25:23 27:19
owned 37:5 72:21 75:16 77:6, 28:10 37:17,18 46:2,5 63:15
online 82:10 12 78:6 178:23 71:8 121:6 138:6 143:21
open 11:5 112:3 144:22,24 ownership 77:20 147:24 181:24 189:5,7 201:1
173:23 174:3,10,19 187:20,21 209:16
opened 145:5 174:4,18 P partially 199:8 211:22
175:11,17,22 176:2,5 189:21
190:4 191:7,10,13 200:2 participants 90:16 162:20
215:21 216:2 p.m. 42:22 224:17
participate 34:5 35:24 108:20
opening 176:9 211:22 212:6 packaged 82:14 159:3
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: participated..position
participated 112:14 Peterson 16:13 17:9,17 18:1 plan 20:1 67:13,16 98:20
19:2,12 37:21 38:2 43:21 109:14 110:11 122:2 123:5,9,
participating 148:4
63:12 65:12,18,20 87:6 94:23 13
parties 90:16 150:12 162:20 105:1,2 111:17 117:1 121:15
planning 32:3 61:16 108:16
124:10,12,19 134:7,13 139:4
parts 82:5,7 121:4 178:24 180:6 224:9,15 plans 66:3,11,12 68:14 101:24
party 48:1 Peterson's 37:22
108:14
passed 65:22 154:21 platform 122:23

petted 39:20
passenger 215:9 216:17,21 played 23:3 120:23
phase 71:6
217:20 224:7
plots 26:20
phone 75:15 94:15 95:14
past 52:4 71:5,22 131:18 120:16 128:6 129:22 142:3,21 plug 82:3,12
171:8,13,14 172:5,12 173:8,10
190:9 194:1,8 201:12 202:2
174:5,6,7 191:12 214:24 222:7
205:23 207:9 209:9,17
plugs 81:8,9 83:13 84:7
path 166:11 167:1 plywood 111:6 112:6,8,11
phones 93:10 128:6,11 129:4
114:3,10 122:24
patio 46:14,24 157:23 159:23 160:2,9,21
166:23 167:6,8 175:3 177:13 poach 27:2,5
Patricia 50:15,16 204:19 205:7,14,15,19 221:23
poaching 37:24 38:1
pattern 74:3,17 100:13 photo 166:4 183:17 185:9
186:9 pocket 35:19 146:6 148:18
pay 29:15
155:17 157:23 158:7 160:5
payoff 21:17 pick 8:15 36:16,19 53:24 54:5 167:10 201:11 205:8
104:8 109:20 150:19,20
Paypal 84:22 152:20 178:18 201:7 pockets 160:3
Peebles 12:11 16:13 30:18 picked 145:18 146:5 153:22 point 10:8 11:20 43:23 44:13
191:20 201:10 205:4 46:4 47:8 48:3,14,20 53:7
peek 221:14 57:11 62:15 65:3 66:16 71:4
pending 9:15 10:9 110:17 picking 191:18 72:5 73:24 77:10,20 79:6
109:18 119:9 122:5,6 135:22
people 8:16 28:22 30:19 50:7, pickup 39:24 87:14
141:20 142:2,24 143:5,8
11 115:5 149:15 picture 101:4 188:8 152:13 157:6 162:4 169:3
perceive 107:2 172:20 173:15,21 178:9
Pike 12:11 38:19
182:22 183:2 189:18 190:5
perfectly 8:12 Piketon 17:22 193:7,17 195:16,21 196:13,21
period 5:11 16:9 23:10 53:14 197:3,4,6 199:11 206:4 213:24
pile 35:13 146:3
54:7 125:19 134:21 199:21 215:12,24 222:9 224:2,14
pillar 212:5
periodically 43:11 pointblank 200:24
pillow 194:7
permission 41:10 pointed 67:2 143:12 149:13
pin 181:23
permit 90:6 162:12 165:19 pointing 165:5,16 191:9
pipe 70:11,12
person 22:5 82:9 110:13 points 29:6 152:1
118:3,15 170:8 213:23 pipefitting 74:2,15 80:7,10
pole 167:19 168:1,5,23
personal 20:12 35:19 54:23 pipefittings 80:9
pond 38:6
61:15 69:9 99:19 piping 36:6
pool 30:21
personally 30:19 88:23 99:8 pistol 179:22
118:7 porch 136:17 138:7 183:15
place 33:8 35:7 116:8 173:14
personnel 90:24 162:9 port 79:17,19
206:13,15 216:14
persons 160:1 position 7:16 77:18 123:20
places 28:14
135:13 136:19,22 137:2,5,11,
pet 39:15,19 plaintiff 3:8 11:9 14,18 139:8,22 141:14 143:7
145:23 191:22 198:8 199:14
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: positioned..quiet
positioned 136:2 144:16 proceedings 11:5 56:4 58:8 110:23
194:19 200:15 76:21 77:24 88:21 89:14 91:3
purchases 102:1 108:18,19
163:5 178:15 179:6
possibility 95:13 192:8,9
purchasing 101:13
process 69:18
possibly 51:1
purpose 68:24 69:3 106:17
produce 96:5
posts 111:24 112:2 111:10 129:24 173:9 203:2,10
proffer 7:1,6,9,13 8:1
potential 61:18 purposes 18:3 106:18
progressed 62:19
potentially 99:1 pursued 70:10
project 34:3
preceding 60:16 pushed 190:18
projectiles 145:23
pregnant 110:4 pushy 39:18
prone 137:2 139:8
prep 6:5,13,22 7:8,19 68:19 put 9:16 10:20 11:18 18:2
proper 31:19,23 37:1,2 66:19 20:15 46:19,20 50:19,24 72:19
preparation 26:19 86:12
68:2,3 70:6,12 90:19 111:3 113:17 116:5
93:2,3 116:2 117:5
122:24 123:3 125:5,22 126:5,
properly 207:18
preparations 68:7 6,14 127:1,7,9 146:6 157:8,17
properties 126:2 149:22,23 163:17 166:21 167:10 183:10
preparing 69:11 86:8 185:14 188:22 189:10 191:21
property 20:3,11,17 37:6,9, 199:12 201:11 205:8 221:17
presence 3:23 9:17 90:7
16,17,18,22 38:7 96:9 111:14,
110:16 162:13 223:16
16,19 126:1 140:5,13 151:14
present 5:15 11:11,16 68:14 154:10,15 155:6 164:5 221:11 puts 8:22
86:24 99:6 104:16 121:18
propped 194:6 195:19 putting 125:11 211:5
130:3
prosecuting 3:14,15 11:13,
preserve 20:3,11 Q
14
pressed 46:22,24
prove 56:15
pretend 142:4 quantity 27:8
proximity 19:7
pretending 142:3 quarter 84:14 145:24
psyche 121:23
pretrial 57:12 question 5:13 19:9 20:9 31:2
PTO-DRIVEN 36:4 32:6,8,9 33:2,13 34:15 37:13
pretty 22:17 38:13 40:8 43:7 48:18 49:20 57:5
public 5:19 23:8
58:11 61:3 62:4 66:6 68:9
prevent 95:13
pull 39:24 91:17 155:3 171:8 71:10,11 77:11 81:2 86:10
previous 168:22 185:12 97:19 100:9 105:20 110:17,20
113:12,14 116:1 118:10
previously 32:8 195:8 pull-behind 20:14
119:22 120:18 128:22,23
primary 57:4 pull-off 215:13 218:21 129:9,10,13 139:17 153:17
159:12 165:13,20 178:9,19
prior 15:11,19 20:2 42:24 pulled 154:17,18 155:1
179:3,12,13 180:16,23 181:16,
43:3,7 79:2 125:10 131:1,10 158:12,17 188:24 189:17
17 186:7 188:15 196:3,5,7
132:9 138:18 143:5 152:21 215:13,17 216:13 218:19
203:7 210:9,10 213:17 214:10
222:7 223:13
private 54:8 60:8 218:9 219:17
pump 36:4
Pro 28:17,22 29:2,5,20 101:11, questioning 91:10
15 purchase 29:8 78:12 82:4,6,
questions 8:4,5,8 9:7 34:8
8,9 84:16,23 93:18 95:4 98:18,
problem 8:11 12:2 67:20 22 99:3,6,14,21 100:5,23
91:22 206:12
problems 13:1 133:22 101:2,18 quick 221:14

proceed 13:6 purchased 19:12 73:20 78:16 quickly 18:8
83:6,16 86:8,11,23 87:1,16
proceeded 74:2 93:2,6,15,17 94:8,18 96:15,18,
quiet 179:24 180:2
21 99:19 101:9,15,22,23 106:4
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: quote..residence
quote 59:1 63:21 97:14 147:7 received 5:24 23:14 relation 26:4 87:16 95:11
179:16 115:1 214:3
receiving 124:7
quoted 142:14 relationship 25:21 31:5,7,10
recently 5:24 6:1
41:13,14,20 44:10,12 46:16
recess 89:24 90:1,19,22 91:2 151:11,24
R
162:3,7,10,23 163:1,4 224:23
reliable 114:19
rabbit 39:14 reckon 31:22
remained 135:8
radio 93:9 recognize 75:11,13 93:24
remaining 23:13 29:23 92:16
94:5 98:3,5 101:1,3,6 103:7,9,
radios 93:10 21,23 104:7,11 113:2 163:24 remember 18:23 19:1 25:18
radius 126:3 184:5,7 185:1 211:10 39:8 42:15 58:13 59:13 63:3
64:22 65:8,11,18 71:18 73:7
rail 112:9,10 recognized 138:20
83:7 104:23 113:5 121:6
rails 111:7 recollection 99:4 115:18 125:3,15 126:9,11,22 130:7,8
221:6 224:10 134:20 136:18 153:20 154:2,
raining 189:18 18 156:7 164:17 166:1,7 170:2
recommended 109:21 171:5,11 175:6,16 180:1 183:4
raise 8:7 10:15 13:15
reconvene 162:8 185:7,11 189:4,6,7 193:18
raised 57:12 195:17 197:13,14,19,20 200:15
record 3:7 6:16 9:16 10:20 201:15 206:3,6,8 209:12,15,23
raising 195:18 11:19 12:6 22:13 53:24 90:19 210:24 214:23 220:24 221:8,9
ran 207:23 recorded 7:22,23 222:15 223:5
Randa 25:20 28:3 recordings 6:15 77:3 109:18 remembered 121:4
randomly 143:13 recover 177:11 remotely 9:18 11:24
rape 52:5 recovering 180:12 remove 70:10
Rarden 154:23 red 197:20 repair 70:15 72:8 73:14,15
reached 174:11 Reedus 108:7 repeat 20:9 33:2 40:8 49:20
68:9 69:1 71:11 86:10 97:19
reactions 50:6 reenter 223:20 99:5 116:13 128:23 132:20
read 58:17 90:13 92:1,3,5,15 reentered 184:10 153:17 156:1 170:17 194:3
162:18
reentry 214:16 reporter 3:5,11
ready 12:16 13:6,8 91:4 163:6
refer 38:9 reports 90:13 162:18
rear 135:19 136:1
reference 105:21 220:6 repositioned 199:13 204:9
reason 53:17 77:6 155:2 216:16
161:3 180:1 referenced 103:12
represented 11:13
reasons 18:9 53:17 74:5 referencing 102:17
150:7
request 3:18 48:21 49:5
referred 77:4
recall 18:16,20 21:9 39:4,7 requesting 11:22,23
referring 81:17 98:17 113:15
40:4,12 44:17,18,19 55:8 63:9 117:12 125:7 140:22 185:13 required 6:16
64:5 65:21 72:9,23 75:17 222:13,14
78:11 80:15 82:4,6,7 83:16 res 56:23
84:12 87:5,7,15 94:16,20 reflect 12:6 rescue 51:7,9
98:22 99:11 114:24 117:16,19, regard 213:3
21 119:13 121:7 126:14 127:1, research 90:11 162:15
7 130:5,16 132:16 144:6,7 regulations 27:12,13 residence 67:21 155:10
155:18 160:4 172:4,13 177:5 rejected 67:12 184:10 192:11 203:10 206:12,
183:1 185:10 217:10 22,24 210:1,12,16,18 211:17
relating 102:7 214:7,20 220:7,9 221:20,23
receive 23:19
222:2 223:20
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: resolved..seal
resolved 12:3 rim-fired 181:22 run 78:21
resolves 10:7 risk 8:22 runs 8:22
resorted 86:16 road 9:24 10:4 12:10 16:1,4,6, ruse 142:16
12,13 17:9,17 18:2,10,17
resources 30:21 rust 113:17
37:15,21 38:2 43:16,21 51:13
responding 9:10 65:12,18 105:1,2 111:17 117:1 Ryan 11:16
121:15 124:10,12,19 134:7,13
response 59:12 62:6 63:4 139:4 172:14,16,18,19,21
66:15 S
173:2,4 178:24 180:6 182:18
responsibilities 45:2,4 216:11 218:10,13 224:15
Saint's 120:15
responsibility 45:15,16 46:8 roads 37:24
Saints 119:11
responsible 46:7 Rob 3:14 11:14
Samantha 38:20,22,24 39:9,
restroom 11:2 rod 78:24 10,17 40:17 48:14,21 49:5,10
rests 12:14 rode 23:3 satellites 109:8
result 86:16 role 4:10 save 46:5
results 131:17 roll 146:2 scary 146:21
resume 91:9 163:14 rolled 208:17 scenario 199:5
resumed 11:5 58:8 77:24 room 50:20,21 51:2 90:2,24 scenarios 152:24
89:14 91:3 163:5 179:6 104:19,21,23 123:17,21 138:3
140:2,5 148:19 149:2 151:19 scene 120:15
retreated 212:17 153:16,19 162:8 166:5 170:6 scenes 180:13
retrieved 160:21 201:21 174:13,16,20 175:2,5,22,23
176:1,8 177:15 184:11 189:22 schedule 170:16,19
return 140:1 141:2 198:15 191:12,19 192:1,4,6 193:1,11 Scheiderer 11:16 35:12
returned 11:4 12:21 58:7 195:22 196:10,12 197:24
77:23 89:13 91:8 141:2 163:12 198:1,16 199:3 200:9,11,13,14 school 23:7,8
175:23 179:5 199:2 201:4,7,16 202:10 204:7
schooling 23:13,20,22
208:1,2,6 209:7,10 211:21
returning 166:10 212:18 213:1,13,19 216:1,5,6 science 26:18
reunite 161:6 221:13
scientific 178:20
revealed 194:9 rooms 204:3
scientists 177:20
rewards 29:6 101:12 rose 190:24
Scioto 10:5
Rhoden 16:10 38:10,12,14,15 Roten 25:12 26:2
scooted 98:15
51:23 53:20 55:18 138:16,17 roughly 198:6
scratch 51:17
Rhoden's 20:17 154:9 190:3 round 34:7 131:13
206:14 scream 51:18
rubbing 189:1,4
Rhodens 25:12 26:4 41:13 screamed 51:6,8
rug 158:15 184:12
Richard 3:13 11:12 screaming 47:2
Ruger 69:15,24 71:2 72:1,10
Rick 57:23 screen 75:4 91:23 120:13
179:18
145:2
ride 154:21 rugs 184:17
screw 74:14 100:17
ridges 189:6 ruled 56:7 57:13
screwed 112:11 114:3,9
right-hand 84:17 93:23 101:3 rules 6:19
186:6 screws 74:13
ruling 57:14
rights 53:10 seal 189:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: seals..sleepish
seals 189:5 shell 175:3 177:11 180:12,20 sight 115:4 136:15 141:14
191:18,20 201:7,9,20 202:2 143:19,22
search 142:3 175:2
204:6,15 208:5 209:2,8 222:2
sign 53:13 56:18 102:21
searched 201:19
shining 27:17
signal 93:6,8 94:6 134:24
searching 178:17
shock 190:17 137:21 207:11
season 27:8,22,23
shoe 98:11 101:18 117:21 signals 93:9
seat 157:8,17 171:23 216:17,
shoes 96:15,19 97:13,15,16, signature 102:11,13 103:13
20,21 224:4,7
18,20 98:3,7,8 117:8,9,11,18 104:12,14 105:5
seated 171:17 125:5,6,7,12,22 126:5,14
signed 102:15,22 104:1,16
127:8,9 130:17 132:19,23
seconds 198:3 215:23 105:9
shoot 37:6,8 141:10,18 142:8
section 121:4 138:5 166:12 signing 53:12
143:9 176:23,24 180:5 197:9
sections 184:12 198:12,18 199:3 201:2 207:4,7 silencer 69:24 70:17,19 71:4,
23 74:1 78:14 79:13,15 86:2
security 148:21,23 149:1,4,5, shooting 144:4 146:12 202:1
95:16,20 143:15,21
6,10 156:17 157:3,4,17 209:1
206:19,21 216:2 silencers 68:19 69:11 78:13
shop 28:11,17 29:5 101:12
80:2 86:4,14
seek 61:16 206:19,21 shopped 28:16
similar 39:11 59:17 85:21
selection 178:22 shopping 28:14 98:10 117:16 126:12 145:14
semi-automatic 209:4 147:7
short 16:9 23:10,11 39:21
semitruck 21:3,4,6,7 36:7 53:19 134:21 similarly 105:12
semitruck's 36:5 shot 72:6 123:22 138:1,8 single 21:6 46:10
141:16 142:18 143:11,23
Senior 67:9,17 144:18 155:10 sister 39:12
144:6,9 145:5,16 174:22,24
Senior's 53:20 123:8 134:7, 175:1 176:10,16 178:23 sit 164:8 167:4
16 149:21 150:2,3 158:7 183:18 190:21,23 191:3,4,5,
14,16 194:16 196:14 197:12,
sitting 13:14 136:23 171:21
161:14 164:4 183:15 184:8,10
205:22 206:22 207:24 223:12 13,15 198:11 199:9,15 200:12, situated 31:21
224:12 16,19,21,23 204:3,12 205:1
208:22 212:14,19 213:14 situation 44:3 168:19
sense 115:6 121:21,22 199:19
shots 196:15,16,19 situations 150:21
212:12
shoulder 46:21 190:14 size 80:19 83:17 84:8,12
sentimental 20:13
85:14,21 97:15 117:19,21,22
separation 44:3 show 75:3 81:13 93:20 112:24 133:2
113:9 180:13
September 12:8 SK 131:17
showing 85:8 119:14 120:9
serves 85:18 187:7 sketch 193:16
service 98:20 shut 156:22 175:8 182:10 ski 117:7,17 130:12 131:23
205:12 215:21 216:19 132:11
set 20:3,19 36:4 56:12 111:6
152:21 153:4,9 208:2 214:11, side 13:5 27:21 90:18 91:4 SKS 69:16 74:4,20 75:24 77:7
12 101:3 114:11,12 138:6 140:9 86:4 116:10,16 131:6,9 135:15
151:22 156:13 162:23 168:6 137:19 139:9 141:24 143:16
share 53:1 145:12 146:7,15 192:19
186:6 190:1 194:22,24 195:19
shared 53:9 199:14 200:14,16,17 208:16 sky 109:9
Sheen 120:11,13 215:9,10 216:17 217:20,21
218:23 sleep 50:20 51:1
sheet 112:11 sleeping 201:5
sides 12:16 163:6
sheets 211:23 sleepish 174:14
sidewalk 147:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: slept..straight
slept 151:16 60:9 62:6 65:10 66:7 68:10 state's 10:2,12 13:5 74:23
72:23 77:2 78:13 80:1 87:10 75:3 77:18 81:10,14 85:5,9
slight 190:12
102:6 105:3 107:20 116:7 91:18,24 93:20 97:22 99:24
slightest 67:1 117:5,11,17 121:7 125:3 137:1 100:3 103:1,16 104:3,6 112:21
181:24 187:10 206:6 220:24 113:6,21 120:6 163:17 183:23
slightly 98:6 191:20 222:15 185:16,19 187:4,8,24 188:2,
slow 216:23 11,13 211:2,6
specifics 50:5
slowly 188:23 stated 10:16 44:16 59:15
speed 106:21
212:3
sluggish 176:17 spell 14:3
statement 6:6,8,10,21 7:20
small 45:15 46:6 197:21 spending 210:14 56:17 57:15 119:15
202:13,18
spent 151:13 187:11 statements 5:23 6:3,13 7:17
smear 184:12
spillway 38:7 station 48:1
smeared 184:18
spins 74:13 stationary 84:2
sniper 67:4
spot 113:17 164:15,23 165:3 status 7:2
soil 126:1,3 168:17 214:4 223:13
stay 119:7 133:15
soldier 101:20 spotlighting 27:15,16 37:24
stayed 8:19 119:8 151:14
solemnly 52:8 spun 198:5 152:5,7
solvent 79:7,10,12,14 86:2 staying 95:7 210:2
spy 48:15
100:14
stack 111:7 steal 34:10,16 35:4,15,20
son 61:17 174:16 182:11 36:2,3
stage 72:4
Sophia 50:6,19,24 51:11,13, stealth 107:4
14,15 52:15 54:1 59:16 62:11, Staley 39:1
24 102:18 105:5 109:20 step 110:22 174:21
stalling 53:16
153:22 154:2
steps 20:2,10 156:14,24
stalls 111:23 174:21
sort 61:18 67:4 74:16 78:19
97:17 141:17 153:3 158:15 stand 7:14 13:13 164:9,10 stipulated 10:8
163:21 185:2
standard 74:1,15 stir 176:15,17
sorts 34:12 50:12 66:15
standing 104:18 143:4 145:8 stomach 137:4
109:10
147:4 157:7,11 183:18,22
sound 145:13,14 176:18 191:8 193:24 198:6 200:7,16, stomp 46:13
21,24 202:11,15,16 211:15
sounded 191:15 stomped 45:18 63:7,8 64:11
212:4,13 213:9,10,14
sounds 71:16 81:2 180:22 stood 143:8 168:8 200:12
start 40:23 47:9,18 53:24
211:24
source 90:12,14 162:17,19 66:11 71:23 150:1,2
stop 47:1 173:14 216:9
South 15:13 started 11:2 25:21 39:16
40:17 41:6 46:13 87:10 144:4 stop-by 152:24
speak 14:10 181:13 176:17 191:18 195:2,12
stopped 167:18 215:2
speaking 103:11 110:1 starting 43:17
store 97:6
special 3:14 11:14 starts 92:11
stored 20:13,16
specialty 70:11 starved 199:22
stores 29:12 82:7
specific 30:3 34:14 37:13 state 3:8 4:21 6:1,19 9:6 11:9,
63:18 110:18 136:18 156:6 story 110:15 124:2
13 12:14 13:6,10,12,19 56:17
207:19 214:10
91:9 146:22 154:22 163:13 stowed 123:11
specifically 15:21 20:16 190:16
straight 84:3
33:21 34:1 45:10 54:13 59:14
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: straw..thrown
straw 111:7 123:4 sustained 179:11 202:24 technical 23:24
203:23
street 17:24 49:12 170:23 technically 215:14
171:1 switch 106:12 179:17 182:8
telephone 167:18 168:1,5,23
stride 198:6 switched 143:6
telling 46:10 57:16 63:5
strides 190:19 195:22 196:10 swore 52:8 137:13
structure 96:5,10 140:11 sworn 13:18 ten 135:9
structures 18:10,16 20:24 system 81:9 99:18 148:21,23 tending 46:7
149:1,4,5,6,10 156:17
stuff 42:10 44:23 152:24 tennis 97:15,16,18,20
systems 221:12
stupid 107:8 term 5:7 27:15,16
Sturdier 114:19 terror 51:21
T
style 131:20 test 94:12 95:15
stylist 108:3 Tabitha 17:13 52:10 54:9,13 test-fired 96:8
60:10,19
subconscious 185:5 test-firing 72:5
Tabitha's 52:5 54:18 55:6
subject 9:13 33:18 39:18 65:1 59:2,3,13 60:11,20,21,22 tested 94:11,21,22
submitted 90:9 61:15,23 testified 13:18 138:23 214:11
subsequent 10:3 table 11:4 58:7 77:23 89:13 testifies 5:16
104:10 179:5
subsequently 9:8 testify 9:18 11:24
Tactical 81:19
sucking 198:10 testifying 4:1
tagalong 40:15
suggest 9:5 testimony 3:2 4:13,22 10:2
tailgate 133:15 135:4,12 132:3,6
suggested 64:8 179:3
taillights 106:10,16,22 testing 94:24
suggestion 66:13,18
takes 193:5 texted 50:18
suicide 66:21
taking 108:16 164:6 thin 71:6,21
summarize 71:12
talk 4:8,12 18:8 41:5 44:15 thing 8:8,13 9:12 46:18 79:16
summertime 108:1 64:18 124:9 142:17 151:4 92:4 143:10 154:23 170:22
165:6,9
supports 112:9 186:22 187:1,2 205:13
suppose 7:7 141:14 143:11 talked 6:1,4 25:6 28:4 61:22 things 3:24 8:9,15,23 10:14
86:14 108:14 109:20 131:21 22:24 27:6 28:4,23 31:16,18
supposed 8:15 69:14 107:15 208:18 32:2 34:10,12,13,16,21,23,24
123:22 138:8 143:9
talking 13:22 35:1 39:17 70:3 42:5 51:2 52:14 59:23 93:3
supposedly 124:5 71:14 80:1,13 92:22 93:1 Thomas 77:1,15
140:6 142:20 143:2 147:19
suppressor 72:12 74:9 thought 62:20 85:20 201:20
161:11,20 168:22 211:24
145:12
218:21
tank 36:8
surrounding 68:17 thoughts 89:7
tanks 36:6
surveillance 98:19 99:18 thread 74:3,17 78:24 100:13,
221:11 tap 78:16,17,19,21 79:23 85:4 16
100:7
sustain 31:1 33:14 48:17 three-year 98:19
54:24 55:11 58:10 60:3,13 target 68:1
81:1 119:23 120:19 132:8 throat 46:23
148:13 178:4,7,9 179:8
tasked 69:11
throwed 72:14
180:17,23 203:4,16 tears 51:20
thrown 198:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: thundering..uncle
thundering 189:18 tooling 80:2 truck 21:13,24 25:2 35:15
36:12,14 39:23,24 106:4
tie-down 112:10 tools 35:2 79:2 84:22 150:12
110:23 112:16 113:2 122:19,
till 162:8 163:2 top 25:17 82:2 83:13 85:11,12 21 123:11 124:16 125:14,17
98:18 111:8 112:11 113:17 127:8 133:6,11,14,18,19
time 8:21 13:3 15:24 16:9 19:8
114:2,11,12 123:1,3 143:21 134:4,23 135:8 136:20 142:6
23:10 24:4 25:20,23 36:9
184:18 209:18 146:1,10 157:7,9,11 161:7
38:18 39:5 40:2,5,7,9,10 41:3
169:4,21 182:23 189:13
42:7 44:16 45:9 46:8,17 49:7, topic 33:19 214:24 215:3,10 216:7,14
11,13 50:10,14 51:10,16 53:23
topics 31:24 32:12 217:3,8 219:1 223:18
54:7 64:21 65:22 69:1 70:16
71:11 73:18 75:19 78:6 90:23 topographical 164:4 166:9 trucks 36:10
95:8 99:15 111:22 116:13,18,
tossed 72:17 216:18 true 23:16 24:17 107:18
21 117:2 124:3,9 125:17,18
177:12
127:8,15 129:23 134:22 135:3 totally 9:13
137:18 138:15 139:21 141:9 truth 8:6 56:8,14,19 58:1
143:9 144:8 146:12 147:11 touched 106:22
tube 73:14
148:2 152:1,2,4 154:2,16 touching 189:7
155:12,19 156:6,8 157:2,11 turn 29:22 106:10 172:21
158:1,9 161:5,10 167:9 175:9, tour 153:23,24 154:1,3 205:9,18
13,24 176:13,15 178:23 track 39:23 125:24
181:22 182:14 183:18 191:4,5
turned 20:20 39:10 94:14
Trading 85:2 107:17 171:10,11,12 172:22,
192:13 194:15 197:12 198:19
23 174:15 176:5 182:8 190:22,
199:21 200:6 205:1,17 206:2, trail 216:3,5 220:5 24 191:3 197:22 198:8 205:22
8,9 209:24 210:23 212:15,21,
trailer 20:14,15 151:5,10,13, 206:1 215:24 216:11
24 213:10 215:6,7,8 217:2,18
218:13 220:19 223:21 224:4, 17,20,23 166:13 167:21 186:4 turns 33:11 218:8
11,21 192:24
TV 169:12,18
times 25:19 39:19 40:14,18,22 trailers 20:15 186:2
42:9 47:24 54:3 144:6 150:9 twist 70:13
transaction 84:22
151:13,14,15 152:23 153:21 twisting 70:14
187:12 191:17 197:11 200:22, transcribed 7:3
23 215:5,6,20 two-page 103:5,19
transcript 3:2
timing 68:16 type 23:19 24:23 34:1 46:18
transfer 36:7 98:11 132:13 146:22 152:24
tinkered 23:5 transmission 36:5 types 31:18 126:3
tip 131:13 transport 124:7 typical 31:24
tipping 65:2 transportation 25:1 typically 33:8,16
tire 135:16,19 trash 72:18
today 4:1 10:10 11:11 12:12 traveled 173:1 U
13:6 24:15
traveling 122:3,11,14,17
Todd 86:23 87:2,3 106:5 U-SHAPE 188:24
218:10,12
110:23 122:9 ugly 97:16,18,20
tree 216:4,8 220:6,21 221:4
toggle 106:11 ultimately 42:12 67:15,16
trees 216:3
told 39:15,22 50:17,18 51:4,8 Um-hum 184:19
52:16,17 53:18 60:7 61:8 63:5 trial 6:5,13,21 7:8,19 9:14 11:8
64:9,13 65:6 66:2 84:19 95:19 12:24 69:18 Umm 164:15
97:15 107:8 115:13 124:4 trip 206:5,7 217:23 unanimous 89:9
129:22 135:12 137:11 141:18
147:4,6 154:2 174:8 trivial 44:23 uncle 22:9,10,14,17 25:11,13,
15,19 28:3 86:23 87:1,3 106:4,
tomorrow 224:23 trouble 105:19
5 110:23 122:9
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: underneath..word
underneath 76:10 111:12 visible 143:21 weapon 27:9 70:3,4,6 72:7,24
135:18 74:12,17 96:12 116:21 118:14,
voice 8:20 9:4 32:16 33:4
18 139:12,20 143:19 145:16
understand 8:5 9:9 220:18
volume 96:4 146:16 147:15 178:22 179:1
understanding 8:8 9:19 12:1 181:20 202:22
voluntarily 45:2
unfair 5:2 weapons 76:24 77:5,13,16
volunteered 22:6 45:22 78:5 86:15 118:3,19 119:2
unguarded 35:14 125:18 208:23 209:2
vote 32:17 33:4
Union 9:24 10:3 12:10 172:19 wear 117:6,24 132:18
unlocked 156:15 167:22 W
wearing 117:15 130:6,7,8,17
214:8,15
132:22 155:18
unnecessary 107:9 W-A-G-N-E-R 14:5
weather 109:2
unusual 5:2 Wagner 3:3,9 8:11 11:10
13:13,16 14:2,6 16:19,23 17:5, Webster 15:13
upper 84:17 93:23 94:2 100:4 20 19:18 week 45:17 51:13,14,15
ups 54:1,5 Wagner's 4:22 107:11,12 208:3
upset 45:3 wait 80:13 109:15 137:13 weeks 26:10 87:18

upstairs 10:24 127:18 215:19 weigh 134:1
user 50:12 Waited 161:2 weight 114:18,21,23
waiting 134:24 weld 73:14 74:2 80:11
V waive 3:22 welded 74:5 143:20
wake 182:14 welding 25:1
variety 25:10 34:22
waking 176:18 whatnot 154:23
vehicle 21:16,18 27:21 68:18,
21,24 69:4,5 86:18,19,21 87:1, walk 46:16 123:16 138:10 white 39:14
8,12 97:5 106:11 107:4 111:8
walked 124:18,24 125:1,2,3,4, wide 34:22
115:4 116:6,9,10 122:8,11
21,23 127:12 138:5 142:6,13
123:20 134:19 135:16,17 Wilson 3:16 11:15 56:23
161:4,23 166:3 168:6,15
136:1,2,11 157:18 161:1 113:10,23 120:5 165:6,9
173:22 174:5,6,15,20 175:4,
164:14 166:1 170:4 171:17,19, 185:22
14,18 189:19,23 191:12,14
22 189:19 210:21 217:5,21
200:13 215:19,21,23 window 174:3,10 187:15
219:5 223:12,24
walking 108:4 123:18 141:5 188:5,17 189:5 223:1
vehicle's 36:8
167:12,13 winter 101:20
vehicles 69:9 135:18 150:14
walls 212:5 wipe 158:14
vent 186:12
Walmart 28:17 96:23 wipe-ish 158:12
venty 186:21 187:1,2
wanted 3:24 4:16 28:23,24 wiring 149:14
verdict 90:10 39:15 45:13 108:1 109:4
withdrawing 9:20 12:4
versa 33:22 wanting 50:5
witnesses 6:15,17 9:18 68:3
versus 11:9 217:21 Washington 3:9 11:10 90:17 162:21
vertical 114:5,6,7,17,22 watch 119:10 121:16,19 woke 190:11
vice 33:22 watched 121:3 wood 145:15
video 79:11 109:9 120:1,23 watching 121:14 word 21:21 31:19,23 37:1,2
view 89:23 90:13 162:17 164:4 wave 93:9 43:10 44:24 47:2 63:1 64:4,24
66:19 67:15,19 68:2,4 70:7,12
Virginia 25:13 26:5 ways 218:8 97:16 121:23 130:3 139:24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·Index: worded..younger
161:2
worded 63:21
words 20:2 63:3 92:8
wore 117:22
work 21:7 44:22 45:21,22 46:2
69:20 71:20 72:11 150:14
170:16,18 207:20
worked 35:16 66:23 94:11,13
170:22
working 139:10 171:4
worry 216:10
worse 163:22
wound 199:5
wreck 21:12 22:5,8
wrench 70:11,12
wrong 52:1 137:9
XX-8 120:5,6,10
yard 35:14 44:22 135:19

yards 140:7,10
year 24:7 26:9,10 40:22 49:22
154:18
years 15:4 16:5 41:23
yelling 45:19
yes-or-no 62:3 128:22 129:9
Yesish 113:3
yesterday 6:5
younger 42:1
STATE OF OHIO vs.GEORGE WASHINGTON WAGNER IV

· · · · · · · · · · · ·PIKE COUNTY, OHIO
·2
·3
·5· · · · · · ·PLAINTIFF,
·6· · VS.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·ACTION NO.:

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 18-CR-155
·7
·8
· · · · · · · ·DEFENDANT.
·9
10
11
12
16· · Judge, on Tuesday, the 25th day of October, 2022.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
·3· · · · · ·ROB JUNK, ESQ.

· · · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
·5· · · · · ·(740) 947-4323
·6

·9· · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
10
· · · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
13

· · · · · · ·OHIO BCI&I
15
16

· · · · · · ·988 EAST 185TH STREET
19· · · · · ·CLEVELAND, OHIO· 44119
20
· · · · · · ·PORTSMOUTH, OHIO· 45662

· · · · · · ·person
24
YVer1f
·1· · October 25, 2022.

·5· · · · · · ·Today is Tuesday, October 25, 2022.· This
·6· · is another day of trial in the case of the State of
·7· · Ohio, plaintiff, vs. George Wagner, IV.
·8· · Case Number 2018-CR-155.
·9· · · · · · ·The defendant is present in the court
10· · today with his attorneys John Parker and Richard
11· · Nash.· The State of Ohio is represented by
12· · Prosecuting Attorney Rob Junk and by Special
13· · Prosecuting Attorneys Angela Canepa and Andrew
14· · Wilson.· Also present at counsel table is Ryan
15· · Scheiderer, special agent with Ohio BCI&I.
16· · · · · · ·Yesterday at the close of the day, Edward
17· · Jacob Wagner was in the witness chair being -- and
18· · direct examination was being conducted by the State
19· · of Ohio.· Mr. Wagner is back in the witness chair.
20· · · · · · ·Is the State ready to resume direct
21· · examination of the witness?
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· We are, Your Honor.
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is the defense ready?
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Are both sides ready for the

·2· · jury to be brought in then?
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Good morning, ladies and
·7· · gentlemen of the jury.· It's good to see you all
·8· · here.
·9· · · · · · ·We begin another day of trial in this
10· · case, and, as you will recall, at the close of the
11· · day yesterday the witness, Edward Jacob Wagner, was
12· · in the witness chair.· The State of Ohio -- we're
13· · still in the State's side of the case.· The
14· · prosecuting attorney was conducting direct
15· · examination of the witness.
16· · · · · · ·And is the State ready to resume direct
17· · examination of the witness?
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Mr. Wagner, this is continuous
22· · testimony, so the oath that was administered to you
23· · yesterday just before you began testifying is still
24· · in effect today.· You're still under oath to speak
YVer1f
·1· · the truth.· Do you understand that?

·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· The State may
·4· · examine.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Thank you, Your Honor.
·6· · · · · · ·EDWARD JAKE WAGNER was recalled as a
·7· · witness and, after having been previously duly
·8· · sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
·9· · · · · · · DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
11· · · · Q.· ·Good morning.
12· · · · A.· ·Morning.
13· · · · Q.· ·Yesterday when we concluded or when we
14· · ended the day, we were talking -- we had just
15· · gotten to the point where you and your brother and
16· · father had arrived back at your residence at
17· · 260 Peterson Road.
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· A couple of things that I wanted to
20· · go back to the night of the homicides itself.
21· · · · · · ·Can you tell us -- you talked about when
22· · you went into Chris Senior's residence that second
23· · time to recover the phones --
24· · · · A.· ·Um-hum.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·-- that you had noticed a lot of blood on

·2· · the floor.
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·After you exited that residence, did you
·5· · do anything to -- to your feet or your shoes
·6· · because of that blood?
·7· · · · A.· ·After I exited?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · A.· ·I don't think so.
10· · · · Q.· ·Did you do anything to remove the blood at
11· · all?
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.· I'll permit him to
14· · answer.
15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I mean --
18· · · · A.· ·Oh.· No, I don't think I did.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You talked about the phone jammer,
20· · the signal jammer.· Who had that with them on the
21· · night of the homicides?
22· · · · A.· ·My father.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us when was it
24· · decided that you would take Chris's truck to the
YVer1f
·1· · various locations?

·2· · · · A.· ·I believe it was on the spot.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you part of that
·4· · discussion or decision?
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When was it decided that George
·7· · would go to that turn around near Kenneth's home?
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection as to the
·9· · characterization.
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection to the
12· · characterization.
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Characterization of what?
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Turnaround.
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I think that's what he called
16· · it.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, all right.· I will --
18· · I'll sustain the objection.· I'm not sure he used
19· · that term, so I'll sustain the objection.
21· · · · Q.· ·Where was it that George pulled off near
22· · Kenneth's residence?
23· · · · A.· ·The head of a driveway pull-off area.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Pull-off area.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·When was it decided that he would go

·2· · there?
·3· · · · A.· ·I don't know.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were not part of that
·5· · discussion or decision?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Once you get back to
·8· · Peterson Road -- do you recall what time you said
·9· · you got back, approximately?
10· · · · A.· ·4:30ish a.m.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do once you got
12· · back there?
13· · · · A.· ·We had parked in the new barn.· No.· Yes.
14· · Yes.· Parked in the new barn.· I had un- -- after
15· · we all had gotten out, removed all of our exiting
16· · clothing, I had removed the -- all floor mats from
17· · the vehicle and I had put all of that -- I think I
18· · had put all of that at that time into a burn barrel
19· · to burn, and unburnable items I had taken -- I
20· · can't remember the order.· But I had taken the
21· · firearms that I had, used a grinder, portable
22· · grinder, to cut up into smaller pieces and then
23· · proceeded to use a cutting torch to melt the
24· · firearms.· I did not have enough material supplies
YVer1f
·1· · to finish the job, so only partially destroyed, and

·2· · I had put them into a duffel bag.· And, as this was
·3· · happening, my father had taken the Chevy truck and
·4· · he had taken it to another location; I was not
·5· · aware of where at the time.· And while he did that,
·6· · I had dug -- proceeded to dig a hole inside the
·7· · barn to bury the duffle bag for a later date.· In
·8· · that order.
·9· · · · · · ·Once we had removed our clothes, we went
10· · to the house to get redressed.· After we were
11· · redressed, that's whenever my dad had taken the
12· · truck to another location, and I had proceeded to
13· · dig the hole.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you said when you got -- first
15· · got back, you pulled into the same barn that you
16· · had originally left from?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that you removed
19· · your clothing.
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·What part of your clothing did you remove?
22· · · · A.· ·Everything but the boxers.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Shirt?· Shoes?
24· · · · A.· ·Pants.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Pants?

·2· · · · A.· ·Gloves, mask, hat.· Whatever we was
·3· · wearing.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did George and your father do
·5· · the same thing?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then where were those items
·8· · put?
·9· · · · A.· ·They were put into a -- an old feed
10· · trough, metal feed trough, that we had used as a
11· · burn pile, a burn pit.
12· · · · Q.· ·And where was that old feed trough?
13· · · · A.· ·In the barn.
14· · · · Q.· ·Was that in there normally or was that
15· · placed in there specifically for this?
16· · · · A.· ·It was in there normally.· I had decided
17· · to use it on the spot once we had returned.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what about the false bed?· Was
19· · that also disassembled?
20· · · · A.· ·Before my father had left, it was just
21· · lifted out, like, I had tossed a bale -- it was
22· · just, like, roughed them off to the side.· Tossed
23· · them -- probably would have covered out and he had
24· · left.· Eventually I disassembled it.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And at this point, who -- is anybody

·2· · helping you to disassemble that or to get it out of
·3· · the truck?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Who is helping you?
·6· · · · A.· ·My brother participated.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that after you
·8· · had your clothing off -- well, you tell me the
·9· · order.· You said you put it into the metal trough.
10· · · · · · ·Did you burn it at that time before you
11· · went into the home to get your other clothes on or
12· · did you go and get your other clothes first?
13· · · · A.· ·We went to get redressed first because it
14· · was still dark.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where were -- was your clothing
16· · in the house?
17· · · · A.· ·That we redressed with?
18· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
19· · · · A.· ·The closet.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · A.· ·Dresser.
22· · · · Q.· ·So you had not left them in any particular
23· · place; they were -- you just went to your various
24· · rooms to get clothing, or tell me about that.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I don't know what they did.· I just went

·2· · back upstairs and got in my clothing.· Put my
·3· · normal clothes on.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then once you were in your
·5· · regular clothing, what happened then?
·6· · · · A.· ·Then I had went back to the barn.· It was
·7· · still dark at that time.· So at that point is when
·8· · I had -- I think at that point is when I had
·9· · started to melt -- proceeded to try to destroy the
10· · firearms.· I think that's when I did that.· I say I
11· · think, because I don't quite remember if I did that
12· · immediately on the night before I buried them or if
13· · I buried them and then removed them later at a
14· · different date and tried to destroy them later. I
15· · think I had done it that night.· I believe it was
16· · that night that I had put it in the duffle bag
17· · and -- yeah, put it in the duffle bag because I had
18· · ran out of supplies, and then proceeded to bury the
19· · duffle bag in the barn.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And tell me about that.· How did
21· · you bury them?· Was there already a hole?· Did you
22· · dig a hole?· What happened?
23· · · · A.· ·No.· I decided to dig a hole because I had
24· · run out of the supplies; that's what it was, so I
YVer1f
·1· · could pull it out at a later date.· No.· There was

·2· · not already a hole.· I had to dig it that night or
·3· · that morning.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And could you tell us where in
·5· · the barn that would have been?· Would it be where
·6· · the -- some of the stalls are now or --
·9· · · · Q.· ·-- where --
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's leading.
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's not leading.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm going to sustain the
13· · objection.· I think the first part of the question
14· · that you had out is acceptable, though. I
15· · understand it may be a leading thing to go on.
16· · I'll sustain the objection, but the first part of
17· · the question --
19· · · · Q.· ·Where in the barn did you dig the hole?
20· · · · A.· ·In line with the stalls because the
21· · stall's not built.· I removed one of the stall
22· · support beams for the roof, dug the hole under it,
23· · and afterwards put it on top of the duffle bag to
24· · make it look like it was just a post in a hole.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And when you were doing that, when you dug
·2· · that hole, again, did you have any help digging
·3· · that hole?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And who helped you?
·6· · · · A.· ·My brother.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Just by way of explanation, were your --
·8· · you indicated that your brother was heavier at the
·9· · time of these homicides than he is currently.
10· · · · · · ·Did you have any observations or
11· · experience with how strong your brother was?
12· · · · A.· ·Prior?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And how would you describe his level of
16· · strength?
17· · · · A.· ·In metaphorical terms, I would have always
18· · described him as strong as a bull ox.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And would you say he was more or
20· · less strong than you were?
21· · · · A.· ·More.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Just in -- if you don't mind using
23· · this diagram, or this picture, I guess.
24· · · · · · ·If you can use this and just tell us the
YVer1f
·1· · path -- first of all, when you were pulling in and

·2· · out of the barn with that truck that you used that
·3· · night, can you tell us, first of all, which barn
·4· · were you in?
·5· · · · A.· ·This one.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what path would you have
·7· · taken when you left the residence and then when you
·8· · returned?
·9· · · · A.· ·The -- the dirt road -- actually, I can't
10· · remember if it was the first drive or the second
11· · drive.· It was one or the other.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · A.· ·And then back in the same -- in reverse.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you would have turned left
15· · or right out of the drive?
16· · · · A.· ·Left.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then when you walked to and
18· · from the house that night, can you tell us what
19· · path you would have walked?
20· · · · A.· ·From the back door here down this little
21· · path here to the back door.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And there are doors on either end
23· · of that barn; correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Well, this is an actual door.· The
YVer1f
·1· · backside is, I guess you'd call it, barn doors

·2· · where a vehicle or tractor could get in.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· You can sit down.
·4· · Thank you.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, for the record
·6· · that will be identified as RRR.
·7· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit RRR was thereupon marked
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you indicated that when you
11· · were -- you had put the clothing into that trough.
12· · And did you burn that that night, or that morning,
13· · I guess?
14· · · · A.· ·After it was daylight, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was there anything else that went
16· · into the trough to be burned?
17· · · · A.· ·The clothing, floor mats, and anything
18· · that was in my pockets; so the shell casings, cell
19· · phones, the DVR -- not DVR, the security modem,
20· · shoes and whatnot.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you indicated that you
22· · also tried to destroy the weapons themselves;
23· · correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And you've mentioned a grinder.· What is

·2· · that?
·3· · · · A.· ·It's a electrical cutting tool.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And, again, is that something that was
·5· · already there in the barn or is that something that
·6· · you brought into the barn for that purpose?
·7· · · · A.· ·You -- do you mean was it stored in the
·8· · barn, or did I go get it to use for the
·9· · destruction?
10· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Was it stored in the barn or did you
11· · go get it to use?
12· · · · A.· ·I don't remember if I went and got it
13· · specifically that morning or not.· It's possible it
14· · could have been in the barn already.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And why would it have already
16· · been in the barn?
17· · · · A.· ·Because the barn was being constructed.
18· · · · Q.· ·And who was constructing the barn?
19· · · · A.· ·Myself, my brother, and sometimes a couple
20· · other people that we hired to help.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so can you tell us how you used
22· · the grinder on those weapons?
23· · · · A.· ·I remember at least cutting two of them in
24· · half, possibly into thirds.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And which two do you recall doing that to?
·2· · · · A.· ·In half would be the Glock 40 and the
·3· · 1911.· I may have cut the SKS into three-thirds --
·4· · into three parts.
·5· · · · Q.· ·After you had cut them, what did you do?
·6· · · · A.· ·I had cut them with the grinder and I used
·7· · -- attempted to use a cutting torch to melt the
·8· · rest of the item down.· And once I found that it
·9· · was -- I was running out of oxygen or acetylene,
10· · the -- I had used the torch to try to at least melt
11· · the action of each of the weapons where the firing
12· · pin mechanism is and the front of the barrel was
13· · where the cartridge actually goes into.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you focus your
15· · attention on the firing pins and the barrel?
16· · · · A.· ·Specifically for -- those are the areas --
17· · I'm sorry.· I also focused on the serial number
18· · area.· But those are the areas of the firearm that
19· · can be forensicable.
20· · · · Q.· ·And can you explain to us what a cutting
21· · torch is?
22· · · · A.· ·It is a tool that mixes oxygen and
23· · acetylene gas to make a high-temperature flame to
24· · melt metal.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Was that something that you had planned to

·2· · do before you left that night to commit these
·3· · homicides?· Did you plan to destroy the weapons
·4· · that you had used?
·5· · · · A.· ·I did.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us if -- again,
·7· · same question.· Was that cutting torch something
·8· · that is normally stored in that barn or was it
·9· · placed or retrieved for that purpose?
10· · · · A.· ·I believe I'd put it there for that
11· · purpose, but it's not uncommon for it to be there.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you indicated once you ran out
13· · of the fuel or the ability to continue using the
14· · cutting torch, you focused in on those certain
15· · areas and then put it in the duffle bag and dug a
16· · hole below this post in the barn; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that after you had
19· · all changed your clothes that your dad left with
20· · the truck; correct?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And specifically which truck did he leave
23· · with?· Was it his truck or the truck that you guys
24· · used that night?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·The one we used that night.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said at the time you did
·3· · not know where he went.
·4· · · · A.· ·Correct.
·5· · · · Q.· ·At what point did you find out where he
·6· · had went?
·7· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure exactly the date, but it was
·8· · months later.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did he return that day after he had
10· · left with the truck?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you have a recollection of
13· · when that was or how he came back?
14· · · · A.· ·I was not present.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you ever see that truck again?
16· · · · A.· ·The one that he left with?
17· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
18· · · · A.· ·No.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you put everything in this truck
20· · to burn, and you tried to destroy the weapons and
21· · then ultimately buried them.· Then what did you do?
22· · · · A.· ·After I had finished burying the duffle
23· · bag, it was already daylight at that time and
24· · that's when I had burned the burn barrel with the
YVer1f
·1· · remaining clothing and whatnot in it repeatedly

·2· · until it was nothing but ash.
·3· · · · Q.· ·You said repeatedly?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you had to set more than one
·6· · fire?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.· I just kept having to add fuel to the
·8· · fire.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Once everything was burned up, what
10· · did you do with those items?
11· · · · A.· ·The remaining ash?
12· · · · Q.· ·Yes, the remaining ash.
13· · · · A.· ·I put it in the dumpster.
14· · · · Q.· ·And what dumpster are you referring to?
15· · · · A.· ·The large, green Rumpke dumpster at our
16· · gate.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· If you want to go ahead and
19· · pull up RRR again.
20· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· One second.
22· · · · Q.· ·Do you see the dumpster in that
23· · photograph?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Are you able to describe where it is

·2· · located?
·3· · · · A.· ·If you notice, you can see the white Jeep
·4· · mail vehicle in front of the gate on the road.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Oh, I think I see what you're saying, but
·6· · if you don't mind using this pointer again.
·7· · · · A.· ·Right there.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that something that is
·9· · picked up or emptied by the county or the city?
10· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure exactly how Rumpke operates,
11· · but it's a Rumpke dumpster.
12· · · · Q.· ·And Rumpke comes to your address and
13· · empties that on occasion, right?
14· · · · A.· ·Once a week, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Once a week.· Okay.
16· · · · · · ·I'm going to show you --
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· So these are RR-2.
18· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit RR-2 was thereupon marked
21· · · · Q.· ·First of all, do you recognize that?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And what is that?
24· · · · A.· ·That is a photo, among other things, of
YVer1f
·1· · our barn.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· And go ahead and show --
·4· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· RR-3.
·5· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit RR-3 was thereupon marked
·8· · · · Q.· ·And do you recognize that?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what do you recognize that as?
11· · · · A.· ·That's the early construction of the
12· · inside of our barn.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us were those
14· · stalls that you see there, the interior of that,
15· · present on the night of the homicides?
16· · · · A.· ·No.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
18· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· RR-4.
19· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit RR-4 was thereupon marked
22· · · · Q.· ·RR-4.
23· · · · · · ·And, again, same question.· Is that the
24· · inside of the same barn?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And were those structures present on the
·3· · night of the homicides?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Do you see anywhere in that photo where
·6· · you would have dug the hole for the duffle bag?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And if you can, go ahead and point to
·9· · that.
10· · · · A.· ·This view, it's about right there.· This
11· · view, would have been about right here.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that view -- that second view,
13· · is that from the -- close to the regular door that
14· · you talked about that would have been closest to
15· · the house; is that correct?
16· · · · A.· ·That's the door by the house.· This is
17· · open to the property.
18· · · · Q.· ·The barn doors that you described?
19· · · · A.· ·Correct.· The fencing gate is right there.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · · · ·One question I meant to ask you.· When you
22· · first went into your home to get dressed because
23· · you were in your boxers, was anybody in the home
24· · awake at that time?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Who was awake?
·3· · · · A.· ·My mother.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were any of the children awake?· Or
·5· · either of the children, I should say?
·6· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Would you repeat that?
·7· · · · Q.· ·Were either of your children awake, either
·8· · Sophia or Bulvine, at that time?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·And where was your mother in the home when
11· · you entered the home?
12· · · · A.· ·I think she was in the kitchen.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did you have any interaction with her at
14· · that time?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·Once you had dug the hole and put the
17· · duffle bag, where did -- do you recall where you
18· · got the duffle bag from?
19· · · · A.· ·Where did I get the duffle bag?· I may
20· · have had it.· I don't recall where I actually got
21· · it from or how I put it in the barn.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you dug the hole and you set
23· · the post back down.· Then what did you do?
24· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Can you repeat that question?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· After you -- I don't know if you and

·2· · your brother dug the hole or just your brother dug
·3· · the hole, but after you --
·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, did you and your brother dig the
·7· · hole or did just your brother dig the hole?
·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.· My brother participated
·9· · in digging the hole --
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · A.· ·-- with me.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And after that had been done and
14· · the duffle bag had been placed there, what did you
15· · do next?
16· · · · A.· ·I took the duffle bag, placed it in the
17· · hole, and I proceeded to bury the hole.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you indicated you put the
19· · post back on top of it?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I put the stall -- it wasn't much of
21· · a stall at the time, but I put it back the way it
22· · was.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you indicated once it was
24· · daylight you had burned the items in the trough and
YVer1f
·1· · put the ashes in the dumpster; correct?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Then what did you do?
·4· · · · A.· ·While I was doing all of the burying and
·5· · the burning, my brother had went to do the morning
·6· · feed routes for our livestock and gathering tools
·7· · to put in the back of his pickup.· So at the time
·8· · when I finished, I can't remember exactly what time
·9· · it was; it was in the morning.· And we had went
10· · to -- outside of Lucasville between Lucasville and
11· · Rarden to prep a -- I think you call it an
12· · Amish-built building; those portable building
13· · things, to prep it for transport.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who were you doing that for?
15· · · · A.· ·It was -- I guess the singular answer
16· · would be for my mother.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And tell me about that.
18· · · · A.· ·She had -- through my grandfather, she had
19· · found the building for sale of which she bought so
20· · she could sell it for a profit.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you said you were
22· · preparing it, for it to be moved; is that correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us approximately how long
YVer1f
·1· · did it take you to get there?

·2· · · · A.· ·I would say somewhere between 20 or
·3· · 30 minutes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you, in fact, prepare that
·5· · building?
·6· · · · A.· ·We had started to, but we had forgotten
·7· · our chainsaw so we had to come back to get the
·8· · chainsaw.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you have any idea of the
10· · approximate time it was at that time?
11· · · · A.· ·I do not.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anything happen on your way
13· · back to your house?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·What happened?
16· · · · A.· ·Once -- in that area, there's no signal
17· · for our cell phones, or at least for mine.· And
18· · once we'd got back on State Route 32, my mother had
19· · called me to tell me to -- as soon as possible to
20· · come home.
21· · · · Q.· ·Did she tell you why?
22· · · · A.· ·No.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You mentioned your cell phones.· At
24· · some point had you retrieved them from your home
YVer1f
·1· · after returning from committing the homicides?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall where they were?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·So your mother calls you and tells you to
·6· · come home as soon as possible.· You were already on
·7· · your way home, though; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall how much longer it took you
10· · to get home after she called you?
11· · · · A.· ·Probably 10 minutes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anything else happen on your
13· · way back?
14· · · · A.· ·No.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you receive any other calls
16· · that morning?
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He just said nothing else
20· · happened.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.· He may answer.
22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who did you get a call from?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Andrew Carson.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And Andrew Carson, the same person that
·3· · you had talked to about Corey Holdren's home --
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·-- or where he lived?
·6· · · · · · ·Okay.· And how do you know Andrew Carson?
·7· · · · A.· ·I met him through -- I met him at the
·8· · memorial four-wheeler ride I was telling about
·9· · yesterday.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what the nature
11· · of that call was?
12· · · · A.· ·He had asked me if I had heard what
13· · happened.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you respond to that?
15· · · · A.· ·I had told him that I had; that I had seen
16· · it on the news.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, when he talked
18· · to you, was he -- how was his demeanor?· Was he --
19· · did he seem to be upset or was he just calling to
20· · tell you this?
21· · · · A.· ·He had seemed shocked.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how long was that conversation,
23· · would you say?
24· · · · A.· ·A minute or two.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us your demeanor

·2· · during that phone call?
·3· · · · A.· ·I'm trying to find the word to describe.
·4· · Shockish, mournfulish, kind of blended.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You said shockish, mournfulish, and what?
·6· · · · A.· ·A blend.
·7· · · · Q.· ·A blend.
·8· · · · A.· ·Kind of a blend between the two.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.
10· · · · · · ·And do you recall anything else that you
11· · said to him during that call?
12· · · · A.· ·No.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did your brother say anything to Andrew
14· · during that time?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember where you were when
17· · you got that phone call?
18· · · · A.· ·I believe I was in the front yard or under
19· · the patio, somewhere in that area.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you -- once you guys got back
21· · to the home, where did you go and what did you do?
22· · · · A.· ·Oh.· I'm assuming you're saying from
23· · the --
24· · · · Q.· ·From trying to -- after you had forgotten
YVer1f
·1· · your chainsaw and you had returned to your

·2· · residence.
·3· · · · A.· ·Oh.· We had entered the house and watched
·4· · the news broadcast.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And who was present when you were watching
·6· · the news broadcast?
·7· · · · A.· ·Myself, my brother, my mother, my father.
·8· · · · Q.· ·At that time were either of your children
·9· · awake?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where were they and what were
12· · they doing?
13· · · · A.· ·They were watching cartoons in my
14· · brother's room.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At that time that you were watching
16· · the news, do you recall what the news was
17· · reporting?
18· · · · A.· ·It was reporting the homicides.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did they report how many people
20· · had been killed or who had been killed, or was it
21· · just that there had been some homicides that had
22· · occurred on that road?
23· · · · A.· ·I can't quite remember exactly what it was
24· · reporting.· I do remember a helicopter image of
YVer1f
·1· · Chris Senior's house.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Was it common for you guys to watch the
·3· · news or not?
·4· · · · A.· ·Myself, no.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Was there any conversation amongst you,
·6· · the four of you, at that time?
·7· · · · A.· ·I can remember bits and pieces, yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What bits and pieces do you recall?
·9· · · · A.· ·I remember --
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis?
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· Hearsay.
14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I can remember my father
15· · telling me that the news had stated homicides, and
16· · he had said something that it was of the Rhodens or
17· · had said something about the Rhodens.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Anything else that you remember at
20· · that time?
21· · · · A.· ·No.
22· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us then -- well, first of
23· · all, your daughter was present that day; correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And she had been at your home on

·2· · the night of the homicides; correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·She was not present with Hanna?
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, during that
·7· · time what was the general visitation arrangement?
·8· · · · A.· ·It was generally Saturday to Saturday,
·9· · seven weeks on, seven weeks off.· I mean, seven
10· · days.
11· · · · Q.· ·That particular week, when were you going
12· · to or when were you supposed to return her to her
13· · mother?
14· · · · A.· ·The Friday morning of the homicides around
15· · noon.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was that because you had gotten
17· · her a day early the week before?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·After you are watching the news, what do
20· · you do?
21· · · · A.· ·After that point, after I had walked
22· · outside, that's when Andrew Carson called.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you talked to him -- so I
24· · mistook that.· I thought you were still in the car.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Was anybody else around you when you were

·2· · talking to Andrew?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do after that?
·5· · · · A.· ·I had called Chelsea, Brentley's mother,
·6· · to ask what had happened and if the children was
·7· · okay.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And by children, who are you referring to?
·9· · · · A.· ·I was referring to Ruger and Kylee.
10· · · · Q.· ·And what did you learn at that time?
11· · · · A.· ·I cannot remember the whole conversation,
12· · but I had remember she had said something about
13· · that they was at the hospital, the Adams County
14· · hospital.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do as a result of
16· · that information?
17· · · · A.· ·I had went back into the house and told my
18· · mother to watch my daughter; that I was going to
19· · the hospital to check on the children.
20· · · · Q.· ·And did you do that?
21· · · · A.· ·I did.
22· · · · Q.· ·And you said it was Adams County hospital?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us if you talked
YVer1f
·1· · to anyone while you were there?

·2· · · · A.· ·I did.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Who did you talk to?
·4· · · · A.· ·I talked to at least April -- excuse me --
·5· · at least April Manley.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And what conversation did you have with
·7· · her?
·8· · · · A.· ·I can't remember in full, but it was
·9· · something along the line of what happened.· The
10· · hospital would not let me see the children or even
11· · tell me information about them, so I got the
12· · information from her.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you -- did you express an
14· · interest of possibly taking Kylee and taking care
15· · of her at that point?
16· · · · A.· ·While I was at the hospital?
17· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
18· · · · A.· ·I expressed interest, yes, but not of
19· · the -- not of custody -- not of a custody
20· · situation.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you learn?
22· · · · A.· ·If I remember correctly, I think April had
23· · told me that she had rode down with the children to
24· · the hospital and, to her knowledge, they were fine,
YVer1f
·1· · but they would not let her see her afterwards.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · A.· ·Or them.· Not let her see them.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you talk at all about Hanna or
·5· · the others with April at that time?
·6· · · · A.· ·I mentioned to April something about the
·7· · others in general.· I do remember asking her or
·8· · saying something to her about Hanna had tried to
·9· · call me the night before, but I didn't answer the
10· · phone.
11· · · · Q.· ·And was that true?
12· · · · A.· ·That is true.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How long were you there at the
14· · hospital?
15· · · · A.· ·Not very long.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do after you left
17· · the hospital?
18· · · · A.· ·I went back home.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, did anybody do
20· · a -- did anybody contact you that day to do a
21· · well-check on Sophia or any of the days following?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes, that night.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall how that was
24· · conducted?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·A woman from one of the Columbus offices

·2· · thing -- I don't remember exactly who it was; I
·3· · think it was some kind of agency.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · A.· ·Wanted to know if she was with me because,
·6· · if they -- if she was not, then she would be
·7· · reported as a missing person.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you tell her?
·9· · · · A.· ·I told her that, in fact, she was with me.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you go anywhere else on that
11· · day?
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you ever return to the
14· · Amish-built building that you were trying to
15· · prepare?
16· · · · A.· ·I did not.
17· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us, did you contact your
18· · attorney -- when's the first time you contacted
19· · your attorney regarding the fact that Hanna had
20· · died?
21· · · · A.· ·Are you talking about Bruce Daily?
22· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
23· · · · A.· ·The afternoon of the following day.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So on a Saturday?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how quickly did you file for
·3· · custody of Sophia?
·4· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure exactly how fast that went,
·5· · but I do remember telling him the situation and he
·6· · said he would take care of it.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you need to use the custody
·8· · document that you and your mother had forged?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Did you get custody of Sophia?
11· · · · A.· ·I did.
12· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us at what point did you tell
13· · Sophia what had happened to her mother?
14· · · · A.· ·About a week or two after.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you go to the funerals for any
16· · of the victims in this case?
17· · · · A.· ·I did.
18· · · · Q.· ·And what funerals did you go to?
19· · · · A.· ·I went to -- well, all of them.· There was
20· · two; one for Gary singular and one for the
21· · remainder of the Rhodens as a whole.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did anybody go with you?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Who went with you?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Both my father and my mother -- excuse me.

·2· · Both my father and my brother.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did Sophia go to any of the
·4· · funerals?
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Had you met or known Gary prior to the
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And how had you met or known him?
10· · · · A.· ·The first time I had met Gary was early in
11· · Hanna and I's relationship.· He had gone with
12· · myself, my brother, and Frankie on an early
13· · September hunting trip to his cousin's place in
14· · Kentucky.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you like Gary?
16· · · · A.· ·I did.
17· · · · Q.· ·And you had met and known all of the other
18· · victims as well; correct?
19· · · · A.· ·I did.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically your relationship
21· · with Chris Senior, how would you describe that?
22· · · · A.· ·I would describe it very well.· I had
23· · looked to him as a second father and had hoped that
24· · he would have been my father-in-law.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Had he been supportive of you even

·2· · after you and Hanna stopped seeing each other?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Why -- how did the decision come about
·5· · that Kenneth should be killed?
·6· · · · A.· ·Dad had said something along the lines
·7· · that because Kenneth was so close to Chris and his
·8· · immediate family, that if -- I think he mentioned
·9· · something that Kenneth could be a loose cannon or
10· · something like that, and if he had suspected I
11· · would have been the one that committed the crime,
12· · that he would do something of some sort to take my
13· · life as well.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, in the days that
15· · followed the homicides, did you, your brother, your
16· · father, your mother, talk about what had happened?
17· · · · A.· ·No.
18· · · · Q.· ·Why not?
19· · · · A.· ·I couldn't.
21· · · · A.· ·I could not bear to think of what I was
22· · doing at the time nor what I had done afterwards
23· · without being able to have immense guilt.
24· · · · Q.· ·And so you avoided talking about it?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I practically tried to erase the memory

·2· · completely.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did any of them try to talk to you
·4· · about it?
·5· · · · A.· ·I can remember my mother and my father
·6· · separate times both had said at one point, if you
·7· · need to talk about anything that we can talk about
·8· · it.· I told them no, I got it.· I'm bottling it up,
·9· · and don't mention it.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, did you or anyone
11· · else in the family have concerns about being
12· · listened to?
13· · · · A.· ·Being what?
14· · · · Q.· ·Being listened to by the authorities.
15· · · · A.· ·Can you ask me that in a specific time
16· · frame?
17· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Was there a time where you became
18· · concerned about that?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us when that was?
21· · · · A.· ·That was after -- after my first interview
22· · with BCI.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall when that was?
24· · How soon after the homicides was that?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I could be mistaken, but I think it was

·2· · close to September, maybe August.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But at the point that BCI wanted to
·4· · talk to you or did talk to you, that's when you
·5· · became concerned about the authorities listening to
·6· · you?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And did anybody else share those concerns?
·9· · · · A.· ·My father is the one who suggested it.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so as a result of those
11· · concerns, did you guys alter your behaviors at all?
12· · · · A.· ·No.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did you -- I mean, I guess you said you
14· · weren't having a lot of conversations.
15· · · · · · ·Did you have conversations about the
16· · homicides after that point?
17· · · · A.· ·Specifically about the homicides?
18· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
19· · · · A.· ·No.
20· · · · Q.· ·You indicated that you had dug this hole
21· · in the barn and buried the weapons that were now
22· · cut up and partially destroyed; correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us, what did you ultimately
YVer1f
·1· · do with those?

·2· · · · A.· ·I had -- well, later my father had said to
·3· · dig them back up at a later date.· And he had
·4· · suggested that we had put them in concrete,
·5· · five-gallon buckets and dispose of them -- to
·6· · dispose of them in the lake that's on my
·7· · grandmother's property.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And the lake that's on your
·9· · grandmother -- which grandmother?
10· · · · A.· ·Wagner.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is this the lake that you
12· · described that you would often fish at with the
13· · children and the family?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what that item
16· · was that he wanted you to build?
17· · · · A.· ·Say that one more time.
18· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us -- you said he wanted you
19· · to put them in concrete buckets?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell me more about
22· · that?· How -- you said you were going to put them
23· · in the lake.· How was that going to work?
24· · · · A.· ·Him and I had mixed concrete, poured it
YVer1f
·1· · into empty five-gallon buckets, placed the

·2· · remaining of the firearms inside those buckets, and
·3· · then we had placed a chain on top of those to use
·4· · as weights for a floating geese house.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is a floating geese house?
·6· · · · A.· ·It's kind of like a chicken coop that
·7· · floats for the wild geese to nest in.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And then what were you going to do with
·9· · that?
10· · · · A.· ·We was going to transport it to the lake,
11· · put it into the lake, and then place the concrete
12· · weights attached to each corner to hold it in
13· · place.
14· · · · Q.· ·And was this geese house already built or
15· · did you have to build it?
16· · · · A.· ·I constructed it.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you make the design or just
18· · build it?
19· · · · A.· ·I constructed it with my own design, yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did anybody help you with that
21· · construction?
22· · · · A.· ·Initially my brother did.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you say "initially," what
24· · do you mean by that?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·He started to with the platform and he had

·2· · done something else while I finished it.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how many of those concrete
·4· · buckets did you use to put these objects in?
·5· · · · A.· ·Three.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us over what
·7· · period of time did that occur as far as the
·8· · concrete buckets and building the geese house?· Did
·9· · it take some time for the concrete to set, or tell
10· · us about that.
11· · · · A.· ·The concrete usually takes about 24 hours
12· · to harden, so probably a day.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you making that geese
14· · house for anyone in particular?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Who?
17· · · · A.· ·For my grandfather.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, which grandfather?
19· · Your dad's dad or your mom's dad?
20· · · · A.· ·My dad's father.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So after it had been constructed
22· · and the concrete buckets had been prepared, what
23· · did you guys do?
24· · · · A.· ·Then I'd had my dad come down and we
YVer1f
·1· · transported it up to the lake.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you have your dad come
·3· · down?
·4· · · · A.· ·I -- I don't remember.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who all went that day to take
·6· · it up to the lake?
·7· · · · A.· ·We all did.
·8· · · · · · ·Wait.· Can I reanswer that first question?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Say it again?
10· · · · A.· ·Can I reanswer that first question? I
11· · think I missed -- I think I misanswered that.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · A.· ·I don't think Dad came down to get it. I
14· · think we transported it in my truck, I think.· I'm
15· · pretty sure it was in my truck.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who all went with you up to the
17· · lake then?
18· · · · A.· ·My brother, my mother, my daughter, and my
19· · nephew.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated you were giving
21· · this to your grandfather.
22· · · · · · ·Do you recall what occasion that was for
23· · or if there was an occasion for that?
24· · · · A.· ·It was either his birthday or Father's
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·1· · Day.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you have a recollection as to
·3· · the date of his birthday?
·4· · · · A.· ·Shamefully, I do not.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when you took this up there, was
·6· · he present for -- did he see the item, I guess?
·7· · · · A.· ·I remember showing it to him at his house,
·8· · but the lake is in the valley.· My grandfather
·9· · is -- was not as mobile as he used to be.· So he
10· · seen it prior to going onto the lake.· Did not
11· · actually see it at the lake that day.
12· · · · Q.· ·That day.
13· · · · · · ·Okay.· And so then after you showed it to
14· · him, what did you guys do?
15· · · · A.· ·We had gone down to the lake and put it
16· · into the lake.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember where in the
18· · lake you put it?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.· It was in the -- if you're looking
20· · at it standing from the road, it would be the right
21· · closest corner.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· To the road that is coming down
23· · from the house, is that what you're talking about,
24· · or --
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·1· · · · A.· ·The lake is in a rectangle shape.· It has

·2· · four straight sides.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yep.
·4· · · · A.· ·Only one side is on a roadside.· So the
·5· · side that's closest to the road, it would be on
·6· · that side on the right-hand side.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you get -- well, can
·8· · you tell us approximately how big that geese house
·9· · was?
10· · · · A.· ·It was 4x8.
11· · · · Q.· ·And there were also these three or four
12· · concrete buckets?
13· · · · A.· ·Four.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So how did you get that large of an
15· · object into the lake?
16· · · · A.· ·I had backed my truck over to it.· My -- I
17· · think my brother and I and my dad slid it down into
18· · the water.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you have to situate the
20· · buckets?· As far as you said, they were used as
21· · anchors basically?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·They were attached to the four corners?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I attached them to the four corners.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did they slide into the water, or

·2· · did they have to be maneuvered, I guess?
·3· · · · A.· ·I had to take them in afterwards to, like,
·4· · myself to an attachment.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how this was a
·6· · gift for your grandfather, if he wasn't able to see
·7· · it?
·8· · · · A.· ·Well, he was not able to walk mostly, but
·9· · he still drove from one side of the farm to the
10· · other.· So as he drove past the lake, he could pull
11· · -- watch the geese fly overhead or land on the
12· · lake.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was something he liked to
14· · do?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He had a -- a natural love for
16· · Canadian geese.
17· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us -- again, that was a
18· · lake that you fished at.
19· · · · · · ·Did you continue to fish there after that?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·After that had been placed.
22· · · · · · ·And, again, that was still in 2016 when
23· · you took those out there; correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, to your knowledge, did that

·2· · geese house and the anchors remain in the lake
·3· · through the time that you got arrested?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, Jake, does that
·6· · geese house continue to float in that lake?
·7· · · · A.· ·Are you asking for to my knowledge prior
·8· · to speaking with you?
·9· · · · Q.· ·To your knowledge, when you got arrested
10· · in November of 2018, was that geese house still
11· · floating on that lake?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And had you been there to that lake -- how
14· · recently had you been there prior to your arrest?
15· · · · A.· ·I think about eight to ten days.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Give me the digital number on
18· · the back.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· 6044.· PPP-1.
20· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit PPP-1 was thereupon
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us if you recognize
24· · the structure that is in that picture?
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·1· · · · A.· ·Other than the color, yes.

·3· · · · A.· ·That is the geese house that I built.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said other than the color?
·5· · · · A.· ·Well, it looks black.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was the color of it when
·7· · you -- when it was floating on top of the water?
·8· · · · A.· ·I had painted it white.
·9· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit PPP-2 was thereupon
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· State's Exhibit PPP-2, which
12· · is 6065.
14· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us if you recognize that?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · A.· ·It's one of the concrete buckets that my
18· · father and I made.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what items were
20· · placed in there?
21· · · · A.· ·In that one specifically?
22· · · · Q.· ·Not that one specifically, but just the
23· · buckets that you did use.
24· · · · A.· ·The parts of the three firearms used and
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·1· · the knife I had broke and -- can I ask a specific

·2· · question on that?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · A.· ·Are you asking what I had remembered I had
·5· · put into it at the time, or what I had learned of
·6· · afterwards?
·7· · · · Q.· ·What you remember putting in it at the
·8· · time.
·9· · · · A.· ·Okay.· I personally remember putting in
10· · the three firearms and the knife.· Not the knife.
11· · The knife that I was carrying.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall any of the shell
13· · casings or any of the parts that you used to build
14· · the silencers or anything of that nature?
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· Leading.
16· · He just said he what remembered.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll overrule it and permit
18· · him to answer it.
19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, I did not.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that you and your
22· · father did that.
23· · · · · · ·Were you present the whole time when he
24· · was putting stuff in the concrete and was he
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·1· · present the whole time you were putting stuff in

·2· · the concrete?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Him and I both was present the whole
·4· · time.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was anybody else present --
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·-- during that time?
·8· · · · A.· ·No.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, regarding Kylee,
10· · did you ultimately ask for a paternity test to be
11· · done regarding Kylee?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were the results?
14· · · · A.· ·Negative.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you learn whose child she
16· · was?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And whose child was she?
19· · · · A.· ·Charlie Gilley's.
20· · · · Q.· ·And is that who Hanna had told you was the
21· · father?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Before I move on, at some point did you
24· · start a GoFundMe account to raise money to help you
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·1· · with attorney fees?

·2· · · · A.· ·My mother did.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember when that would
·4· · have been?
·5· · · · A.· ·I think it was in 2016.· I'm not sure on
·6· · that.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You said you think it was in 2016?
·8· · · · A.· ·It may have been.· I don't remember.
·9· · · · Q.· ·But you did not create it?
10· · · · A.· ·No.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall if you guys
12· · received any money from it?
13· · · · A.· ·I believe I received a thousand dollars.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, I think this
16· · would probably be a good time for the morning
17· · break.
19· · · · · · ·It's about 10:30, so we will be in recess
20· · until 10:45, ladies and gentlemen.
21· · · · · · ·While you're at recess, the jurors are not
22· · to discuss this case among yourselves or with
23· · anyone else.· You're not to permit this case to be
24· · discussed with you or in your presence.· You're not
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·1· · to form or express an opinion concerning this case.

·2· · You're to do no research at all concerning the case
·3· · either as to the facts or as to the law from any
·4· · source at all.· You're not to read, view, or listen
·5· · to any reports or accounts of this case from any
·6· · source at all, and you're to have no contact with
·7· · the participants in the case including parties,
·8· · counsel, or witnesses.
·9· · · · · · ·Does counsel for either side have anything
10· · you wish to put on the record before we recess?
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.· Thank you.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Then we are in
13· · recess until 10:45.· The jurors are to assemble in
14· · the jury room at that time.
16· · · · · · ·(Counsel entered the Court's chambers and
17· · the following proceedings were had before the
18· · Court, out of the hearing of the jury.)
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are on the record in the
20· · matter of the State of Ohio, plaintiff, vs. George
21· · Washington Wagner, IV, Case Number 2018-CR-155.
22· · · · · · ·We are convened here in the judge's
23· · chambers.· In addition to the judge and the court
24· · reporter, the bailiff, Mr. Frazier is present.
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·1· · · · · · ·Also present is defense counsel Mr. Nash

·2· · and Mr. Parker, and prosecutors Mr. Junk,
·3· · Ms. Canepa, and Mr. Wilson.
·4· · · · · · ·The defendant is not here.· I don't know
·5· · exactly the purpose of this.
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, we obtained a waiver
·7· · of his presence for this.· I think the prosecutors
·8· · and the defense have discussed this and requested
·9· · this meeting.
11· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Yeah.
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We were just handed over the
13· · break this judgment entry from the Fourth District
14· · in 22-CA-917 that was filed today at some point.
15· · · · · · ·So we thought it would be necessary, I
16· · guess, to discuss this entry and how we're going to
17· · proceed.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I was emailed that and saw it
19· · on my computer and -- or my iPhone and, therefore,
20· · I called the attorney that's representing the judge
21· · in that case.· She indicated that there was no
22· · reason to change what we were doing at this time.
23· · She said she was going to confer with her, I don't
24· · know, partner and the person with whom she
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·1· · practices, Mr. Lambert.· Ms. Sark is who I talked

·2· · with, and she said she was going to speak with
·3· · Mr. Lambert and get back with me if that changed.
·4· · I don't -- frankly don't know if we're doing what
·5· · we're supposed to be doing or not.
·6· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· If you look at this,
·7· · Your Honor, with all due respect to the Fourth
·8· · District Court of Appeals, they haven't even
·9· · considered Superintendence Rule 12 on this.· And
10· · Mr. Myers never bothered to quote it, it didn't
11· · look like that to me.· Rule 12 is right there in
12· · black and white.
13· · · · · · ·If a witness objects, whether we want them
14· · to, don't want them to, or the public wants them to
15· · or doesn't want them to, that should be the end of
16· · it.· And if the Court -- with the Fourth District's
17· · pronouncement here, like, they're talking about you
18· · have to make the findings of fact, reasonable,
19· · substantial basis, but there's no reasonable
20· · substantial basis right there in Rule 12.· It
21· · basically says they can object, that's it.
22· · · · · · ·I'll bet -- and, again, no offense to the
23· · Court of Appeals.· I wonder how much time they
24· · spent on this, or maybe they just said, boom,
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·1· · rubber stamp we'll do this and sort it out later.

·2· · That would be my guess.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm not sure.· What's
·4· · counsel -- counsel making a suggestion here?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· We don't want -- obviously we
·6· · don't want to get you involved in any further
·7· · litigation or anything like that, but I think I
·8· · would say Rule 12 stands.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I think what -- you have
10· · counsel.· Your counsel is giving you advice to
11· · proceed.· Until you hear differently from your
12· · counsel, I think you should keep going.
13· · · · · · ·(Brief interruption.)
14· · · · · · ·MS. BREWSTER:· Greg Meyers, on behalf of
15· · Jake, they would like to be in on this whole media
16· · thing.
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, we will call them if we
18· · need them.· It's not about him specifically yet.
19· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· We're not to that point yet.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Thank you.
21· · · · · · ·(Ms. Brewster left the Court's chambers
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, that was her -- what she
23· · said.· Although, she also said she was going to
24· · talk with Randy Lambert.
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·1· · · · · · ·The problem is we're, of course, right in

·2· · not only the middle of trial, but right in the
·3· · middle of testimony.· So I don't know whether we
·4· · need to recess to give her some time to get back
·5· · with me or not.
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Clearly, we don't want you to
·7· · be in trouble.· But, simultaneously, yes, it is
·8· · highly disruptive.· You know, they ruled initially
·9· · that in order to -- if there were any exhibits we
10· · did not want published, we would have to have a
11· · hearing on that, but they left alone this recording
12· · of witnesses.· And so I don't understand why
13· · they're now -- I mean, it says "effective
14· · immediately, you cannot restrict recording of
15· · witnesses unless have you a hearing," so I don't
16· · know what the best advice is.· Maybe wait to hear
17· · from her or -- I mean --
18· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· How long do you want to give
19· · her?
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Are we going to have to have
21· · a hearing on every witness that opts out?
22· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· That's not what Rule 12 says,
23· · though, either.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I guess if we're going
YVer1f
·1· · to give her time to get with him -- of course I can

·2· · call her again, if we don't hear immediately, but I
·3· · suppose it might make some sense to adjourn until
·4· · maybe 1:00 o'clock.· That would be after -- that
·5· · would be a long lunch break.
·6· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Give her a chance to talk with
·7· · Randy.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And maybe -- I don't know
·9· · whether she can contact the Court of Appeals for
10· · any clarification or not; maybe not.· But it --
11· · I'll follow any directive I'm given.· Whether I
12· · agree with it or not, I'll follow it of course, but
13· · I'm not sure what the directive is.
14· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, I wonder if you file an
15· · appeal on this or something.· I mean --
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That's not -- I don't think
17· · that's the final writ, I don't believe.· It's
18· · called an alternative writ.· It usually replaces
19· · the summons and tells people -- gives them so long
20· · to file things, I think.
21· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Yeah, the answer shall be filed
22· · within seven days of the journalization of this
23· · judgment entry and Derek Myers can file five days
24· · after the response.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·They should have at least given you a

·2· · chance to respond to it before they issued
·3· · something, is the thing.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I guess on behalf of
·5· · the defendant, you know, we're not a party to this
·6· · case; the State is and the Court is.· So we're not
·7· · going to give any advice, but we certainly do not
·8· · object to a long lunch hour, at the very least, if
·9· · the Court and State needs to consider the best
10· · course forward.
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I mean, the only alternative
12· · is we could do a hearing, you know.· We could have
13· · a hearing.· But, you know, I'm wary of setting a
14· · precedent, obviously.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, if you we have a
16· · hearing -- which I think I mentioned this the other
17· · day when Mr. Greiner was here.· If we have a
18· · hearing, who do we notify of the hearing?
19· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Yep.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Just Mr. Greiner?
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, this is Derek Myers.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.· He was represented the
23· · last time by Mr. Greiner.· Mr. Greiner doesn't
24· · represent him on this particular filing.
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·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I think it's just Derek

·2· · Myers, I think.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· So I'm not sure if they're
·4· · telling us we need a hearing and the Court make
·5· · findings before the Court follows Rule 12(C).· If
·6· · that is what the Court is telling me, that's
·7· · binding on me, then that's what we'll do.· And if
·8· · we're going to not permit videotaping and recording
·9· · of a witness who says they don't want to be
10· · videotaped or recorded, photographed, et cetera,
11· · then we'll follow whatever it is we're being told.
12· · But what are we being told is the question.
13· · · · · · ·And, again, I did talk to Ms. Sark.· She
14· · felt like we were doing it the correct way, but was
15· · going to contact Randall Lambert.
16· · · · · · ·I think the only thing really that makes
17· · sense at this point -- although I don't really like
18· · the idea of doing it -- but is to adjourn until
19· · 1:00, and that would give me time to hear back from
20· · her.· And if not, then give me time to call her
21· · again to make sure that -- how comfortable she is
22· · with this.
23· · · · · · ·MR.· JUNK:· We have no objection to that.
24· · · · · · ·It's almost like the Court in the Fourth
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·1· · District is assuming that the part about witnesses

·2· · opting out and not testifying is coming from your
·3· · order, when it's not.· You picked up on that too.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Yeah.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yeah, it ignores the
·6· · existence of superintendence rule.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Allowing respondent to continue
·8· · enforcing the media order and underlying -- but
·9· · that's already been taken care of.· They can get up
10· · and take whatever pictures they want to and take
11· · pictures of exhibits and stuff, and that's already
12· · been -- that's already been taken care of.· It's
13· · like nobody up there even looked at Rule 12.
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I think it's about 11:15; is
15· · that correct?
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.
17· · · · · · ·I don't know if they were dealing with the
18· · idea of showing up in advance.· We had a rule that
19· · -- part of that media order was that they show up
20· · 15 minutes prior to taking up the trial.· We
21· · haven't excluded anybody is my understanding
22· · because -- as long as they were in the courtroom at
23· · the time the judge opened court.· Our rules says
24· · 15 minutes before.· We haven't really enforced
YVer1f
·1· · that, but I guess is that the question to have

·2· · them -- a deadline by which people need to be in
·3· · their seats?· Otherwise, we're going to have the
·4· · possibility of people running in at any time.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· There's --
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Then that's highly
·7· · disruptive.· And that's a normal order.· I mean,
·8· · you're allowed to control that.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· There's only so much space in
10· · the courtroom.· If you get 200 people out there,
11· · there's no way, on God's green earth, all of them
12· · can be crammed in the courtroom.· The fire marshal
13· · will get on us.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We've provided special --
15· · we've made sure that the press representatives were
16· · seated.
17· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· And even Derek Myers hasn't
18· · been thrown out or anything like that other than
19· · his shenanigans the other day.· He's not ordered
20· · away or anything.· He can't show that -- like
21· · anybody's thrown him out.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, let's -- we'll go out
23· · and I suppose we'll have to have the jury brought
24· · up to do that.
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·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I would think so.

·2· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Again, would you indicate
·3· · that it's through the fault of neither party that
·4· · the jury's being dismissed early for lunch?
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.
·6· · · · · · ·So anything further to put on this record
·7· · about this issue?
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, just so I understand
·9· · what's going to happen, are you going to bring the
10· · jury up first, dismiss for a long lunch, and then
11· · are you going to put anything on the record
12· · about -- in the courtroom about this -- this issue?
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· My intention was not to.· Was
14· · just to simply say that, you know, some matters
15· · that don't concern the jury, and that the Court is,
16· · on its own --
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· That's fine.· I just wanted
18· · to know what was going to be happen.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· -- a nonjury issue that's not
20· · the request of either party.
21· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Not to digress, but I would
22· · like to look two steps ahead.
23· · · · · · ·So if your counsel comes back and says we
24· · have to have a hearing, we probably will want to
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·1· · have a hearing with respect to Jake at least.

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Oh, yeah.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· So then we have got to look
·4· · at what does that look like, when is that going to
·5· · happen?· So we need to do that before we do any
·6· · future -- so just planning.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We have to provide reasonable
·8· · notice to the --
·9· · · · · · ·They're all sitting in the courtroom.
10· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· Mr. Myers is not here.
11· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Is he lurking around downstairs
12· · anywhere?
13· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· He's not present.
14· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Then he can't show any
15· · prejudice on this because he hasn't even tried to
16· · get in.
17· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· He's not been here for two
18· · days.
19· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· We know what he's been doing
20· · obviously, but that's why the Court should have had
21· · a chance to respond before this happened.
22· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Logistically, Your Honor, I
23· · just wanted to plant those seeds.· What I don't
24· · want to do is bring the jury back and then send
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·1· · them out again.

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I don't know that we can
·3· · avoid that.· Hopefully, she tells you to ignore
·4· · this.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, if she tells me
·6· · otherwise, that we are to -- if she tells us we're
·7· · not doing it right and we have to comply with it,
·8· · which means that we have to start recording,
·9· · photographing, videotaping regardless of the wishes
10· · unless we have a hearing, then the question becomes
11· · do we have a hearing on this witness?· And if we're
12· · going to have a hearing, notice is a part of due
13· · process, so we have to have notice to somebody, I
14· · would think, to somebody.· That was my question to
15· · Mr. Greiner, is if we have to have a hearing on a
16· · particular witness -- not just this witness, but
17· · any witness, who do we notify of that hearing?
18· · Mr. Greiner?· The last time he filed, he said he
19· · represented I forget how many news outlets, but a
20· · bunch of them.
21· · · · · · ·Now, at that time does he still represent
22· · all of those or do we separately notify all of
23· · those?· And if we notify him, what -- does he
24· · represent everybody?· Or do we have to have
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·1· · another -- I'm not sure.

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, this is the thing, this
·3· · is -- this was the pro se on the part of Derek
·4· · Myers.· This order does not say that you have to
·5· · provide notice to anyone in particular.· It says
·6· · you have to hold a hearing on it and make these
·7· · findings.· So, you know, you have to find the
·8· · potential for harm outweighs the benefits of the
·9· · public and there's no reasonable alternative to
10· · closure.
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· So until 1:00 o'clock?
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Okay.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Until 1:00 o'clock.· We'll go
16· · out and say that.· We'll bring the jury up anyway.
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Thank you, Judge.
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, I mean, it's closure of
19· · the whole courtroom.
20· · · · · · ·(Counsel returned to open court and the
21· · proceedings were resumed as follows.)
22· · · · · · ·(Defendant returned to the courtroom.)
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is counsel for each side ready
24· · for the jury?
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.

·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Ladies and gentlemen of the
·4· · jury, sometimes during the course of trial things
·5· · arise that are not for the jury's consideration;
·6· · sometimes they don't even relate to the trial
·7· · itself, but -- and this is not the request of
·8· · either party, but the Court is going to order a
·9· · recess until 1:00 o'clock this afternoon.· It will
10· · be a long lunch period for each of you.
11· · · · · · ·While you're in recess -- while we're in
12· · recess, you're not to discuss this case among
13· · yourselves or with anyone else; not to permit
14· · anyone to discuss this case with you or in your
15· · presence; not to form or express an opinion
16· · concerning the case; not do any research at all
17· · concerning the facts or the law of the case from
18· · any source at all; not to view, read, or listen to
19· · any reports or any accounts of the case from any
20· · source; and have no contact with any participants
21· · in the case, including parties, counsel, or
22· · witnesses.
23· · · · · · ·At 1:00 o'clock, you're to assemble at the
24· · jury room.· You will be brought up to the courtroom
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·1· · by an employee of the court at that time.

·2· · · · · · ·Does counsel for either party have
·3· · anything further you wish to add?
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.· Thank you, Judge.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· No, Your Honor.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· With that, we are in recess
·7· · until 1:00 o'clock.
11· · · · · · ·(Counsel retired to the Court's chambers
12· · and the following proceedings were had before the
13· · Court, out of the hearing of the jury.)
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· We're on the
15· · record now in the judge's chambers in the matter of
16· · State of Ohio, plaintiff, vs. George Washington
17· · Wagner, IV, defendant.· Case Number 2018-CR-155.
18· · · · · · ·In addition to the judge and the court
19· · reporter and the judge's bailiff, we have defense
20· · counsel John Parker and Richard Nash.· We have
21· · Prosecutors Rob Junk and special prosecutors Angela
22· · Canepa and Andrew Wilson.
23· · · · · · ·We also have counsel for a witness in the
24· · case, and that's Jacob Meyers who is -- Jacob --
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·1· · Jacob Wagner, who was also a codefendant in the

·2· · case, with Mr. Meyers and Mr. Mooney and
·3· · Ms. Roberts are all present here.
·4· · · · · · ·And we can't discuss the merits of this
·5· · matter, but counsel's aware that a complaint for
·6· · alternative writ of prohibition was filed on
·7· · October 18th by Derek Myers.· And we're going to --
·8· · we've received two requests for hearing concerning
·9· · that.· One was from Derek -- Mr. Myers himself and
10· · the other one was from Mr. Greiner, who was an
11· · attorney who represented some media outlets, and
12· · apparently still does.· And so our -- the question
13· · confronting the Court right now is this:
14· · · · · · ·We have -- we did have a motion for media
15· · access requesting the testimony of Jake and Angela
16· · Wagner be recorded.· That was filed in this case
17· · back on September 2nd.· We had a nonoral hearing on
18· · that and the Court denied that after hearing from
19· · the attorney for the media outlets that was filed
20· · on behalf of several media outlets, after hearing
21· · from them and also the attorneys in this case.
22· · · · · · ·Now we've received this request for
23· · hearing concerning whether -- I believe concerning
24· · whether we should permit the recording of all
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·1· · witnesses, at least in some fashion, even those who

·2· · object to being recorded, videotaped, et cetera.
·3· · · · · · ·So we need to have a hearing -- the Court
·4· · feels like I must have a hearing on that subject.
·5· · I'm not sure whether the matter is res judicata as
·6· · far as Jake and Angela Wagner are concerned.· The
·7· · judge's represented in that case.
·8· · · · · · ·We can't discuss the merits of the
·9· · complaint of alternative writ.· However, a hearing
10· · has been requested.· We can have the hearing.
11· · We've talked about having the hearing Friday
12· · morning.· That would leave the question of Jacob
13· · Wagner's testimony.
14· · · · · · ·Do we continue to have him testify without
15· · being videotaped, filmed, recorded, or photographed
16· · the rest of this day?· And then after our hearing
17· · tomorrow decide -- you know, I consider that issue
18· · not part of this.· And have our hearing tomorrow on
19· · the balance of the witnesses, or do we have our
20· · hearing on Friday morning in which case the
21· · question comes up -- that's the first question.· Do
22· · we have him testify and have a hearing Friday
23· · morning?· Do we have the hearing tomorrow morning,
24· · if that's acceptable with the ones requesting a
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·1· · hearing, and then do nothing with Mr. Wagner until

·2· · tomorrow morning?
·3· · · · · · ·I just wanted the input of counsel here
·4· · about the circumstances.
·5· · · · · · ·Mr. Wagner has objected to being filmed,
·6· · videotaped, photographed or recorded.
·7· · · · · · ·So does anyone have any input on -- does
·8· · anyone want to weigh in?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, if I could?
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· First, my client waves his
12· · right to be here.· Mr. Nash and I had discussed
13· · this with him right before we came in.
14· · · · · · ·Did the Court receive a motion over the
15· · lunch hour?
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We received an email.
17· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· Two emails from the
18· · attorneys.
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Can we see that?· We have not
20· · seen that.
21· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· I can show it to you on my
22· · phone or I can go print it out.
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Print it out at some point
24· · and give it to us.
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·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· They're supposed to give us

·2· · notice.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yeah.· I don't know what
·4· · they're arguing.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Did they make an argument or
·6· · just requested a hearing?
·7· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· Requested a hearing.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· On whose behalf, if I may?
·9· · They requested a hearing in general to challenge
10· · your predicate media ruling?
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I guess it's because the
12· · court of appeals in its alternate -- alternative
13· · writ indicated -- and the part that's difficult,
14· · the Court doesn't understand exactly where we are
15· · with it, is that effective immediately the trial
16· · court may not restrict public access to the
17· · proceedings, including media access and the ability
18· · to photograph or record witnesses, unless a hearing
19· · is held on the issue and the Court finds there is,
20· · one, exists a reasonable and substantial basis for
21· · believing public access will be harmed in
22· · endangering the fairness of the adjudication; two,
23· · potential outweighs the benefit of the public
24· · access; and, three, there are no reasonable
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·1· · alternatives to closure.

·2· · · · · · ·And they're citing the supreme court case
·3· · of State ex rel. Plain Dealer Publishing vs. Geauga
·4· · County.
·5· · · · · · ·So is that telling the Court here that we
·6· · cannot have Jacob Wagner testify and not be
·7· · recorded in some way without having a hearing?· If
·8· · that's what it's telling me -- now, my attorney
·9· · feels that the hearing we had on the motion for
10· · media access and the ruling made on September 9,
11· · 2022, would cover our continuing to have Mr. Wagner
12· · testify without being recorded in some way.
13· · · · · · ·I'm not sure the extent to which that's a
14· · speculation or whether that's on terra firma.· I'm
15· · not sure what the court of appeals is telling me.
16· · It doesn't mention Rule 12(C)2 I think it is.
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It also doesn't say what kind
18· · of hearing you're supposed to have, who should be
19· · involved in that hearing.· To me, if the Court has
20· · a hearing where you consider and make those
21· · findings, I don't think the media has to be
22· · involved in that hearing.· It doesn't say that you
23· · have to have a hearing where the media is involved,
24· · proper notice given to them and ability to
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·1· · participate.· They can request a hearing or

·2· · anything like that.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· If I can?
·4· · · · · · ·It's Meyers, for the record, on behalf of
·5· · Wagner in the predicate course -- Jake Wagner --
·6· · acknowledged this, that once informed of his rights
·7· · pursuant to your predicate media order that he
·8· · would be regarded as a witness and hence had the
·9· · right to ask not to be either video or audio
10· · recorded during his testimony he exercised that
11· · right.· And that's why Mr. Mooney and Ms. Roberts
12· · and I are grateful for a chance to be part of this.
13· · · · · · ·The problem -- if I could just suggest --
14· · and having quickly reviewed the documents at issue
15· · is the second paragraph of the order that includes
16· · the case citation you just referenced does talk
17· · about a time for response and further briefing to
18· · be filed and a hearing to be held.
19· · · · · · ·However, I would suggest, to the extent we
20· · have standing in this hearing, that for whatever
21· · reason the appellate court cited that case, by the
22· · very paragraph or the very section of the case they
23· · cited, which we have quickly Shepardized and
24· · realize it was rooted in a juvenile court
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·1· · proceeding and it was only cited in juvenile court

·2· · proceedings, it mandates the hearing when the
·3· · Court's going to close the courtroom.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Exactly.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· You're not closing the
·6· · courtroom.· Instead -- and astonishingly, if I may
·7· · -- I happen to know Judge Hess over the many years
·8· · long before he ascended to the bench is, as you,
·9· · Your Honor, just pointed out this brief
10· · two-paragraph page and a third entry that got time
11· · stamped today signed by Judge Hess doesn't
12· · reference Rule of Superintendence 12
13· · · · · · ·It seems to us, on Jake's behalf, Rule of
14· · Superintendence Rule 12(C)(2) is the controlling
15· · authority announced by the highest court in Ohio,
16· · obviously the Ohio Supreme Court, and you have
17· · complied with that before Jake Wagner was ever put
18· · on the stand.
19· · · · · · ·He, in per (C)(2), irrespective of that
20· · purported three-part test in that juvenile case out
21· · of Geauga County, that doesn't trump the Rule of
22· · Superintendence for two reasons, I would say.· The
23· · Rule of Superintendence is the Rule of
24· · Superintendence.· And you're not closing your
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·1· · courtroom.
·2· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Not only are you not closing
·3· · it, you're not restricting press access to it.
·4· · They're sitting in here.· They're writing their
·5· · stories.· What you're doing is following
·6· · Rule 12(C).
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.· It probably should be
·8· · made clear that the -- what we're exercising about
·9· · not permitting the videotaping, photographing,
10· · recording, or filming of witnesses who object to
11· · that is not based upon this Court's media order.
12· · It is based upon Rule 12(C) -- I believe it's
13· · Rule 12(C)(2).· The judge shall inform witnesses
14· · and inform victims of witnesses for their right to
15· · be videotaped, recorded, and photographed, and the
16· · comment to that rule which says that filming,
17· · videotaping, recording or taking of photographs of
18· · victims, witnesses that object shall not be
19· · permitted.
20· · · · · · ·So let's get back to it.· Then, I think
21· · the choices we have is having a hearing tomorrow
22· · morning -- doing nothing with Mr. Wagner this
23· · afternoon, having a hearing Friday morning.· I'm
24· · going to be gone on Thursday.· But Friday morning
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·1· · or at some later date to which the parties, who

·2· · have requested the hearing, can be available for
·3· · the hearing.· Present counsel for this case are
·4· · scheduled.· I don't know about Mr. Meyers,
·5· · Mr. Mooney and Ms. Roberts.· I don't know about
·6· · them what their schedule is.· But I do know counsel
·7· · for this case are scheduled for as long as the case
·8· · takes, so you'll be here regardless when we have
·9· · the hearing, I assume.· But I'm not sure about
10· · counsel for the rest.
11· · · · · · ·I don't know what the preference is. I
12· · don't know really what the concerns are as far as
13· · Mr. Wagner's testimony.
14· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· The preference would be to
15· · keep going, operating under Rule 12(C), under the
16· · decision you've already made with 12(C).· If you
17· · feel you need to make -- to clarify the record that
18· · you're making this your previous order, we can
19· · clarify the record that way.· But I think we would
20· · like to keep rolling along with him on the stand
21· · today.
22· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Absolutely.
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And you feel it affects the
24· · fairness of the hearing not to do that?
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Yes.· Yes.· Absolutely.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't know what the
·3· · defense's position is.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I don't think we're a
·5· · party to the writ of prohibition.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· No, you're not.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· However, obviously, our
·8· · client's a party to the trial.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, you're a party to the
10· · trial.
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· That's right.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· But if you don't have his
13· · testimony this afternoon, we don't have it maybe
14· · Friday, I don't know where that runs into fairness
15· · issue.
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yeah.· I mean, we have always
17· · taken the position since this trial started that
18· · Rule 12 of the rules of superintendence applies.
19· · And we've asked the Court from the first witness on
20· · to make sure that the witness knew of their rights.
21· · I believe the Court created a form so they could
22· · check the box that they wanted to apply to them,
23· · and then we're usually notified of their choice,
24· · and then the Court signs off on it.· And I believe
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·1· · it's made part of the record.· So as long as the

·2· · Court is following Rule 12(C), we're fine.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Right.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· And if you want to have a
·5· · hearing in your court on this, we'll be there.
·6· · Whenever it is --
·7· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· And maybe if the Court were
·8· · to go on record here soon today to emphasize you're
·9· · enforcing Superintendence Rule 12(C), you're not
10· · closing your courtroom.· In fact, you have gone the
11· · extra mile, in my experience in these high-profile
12· · cases, to accommodate the physical presence of
13· · many, many members of the media.· They're here.
14· · Indeed over the lunch hour read -- again, we're not
15· · litigants in the writ of prohibition either.· "We"
16· · being counsel for Mr. Edward Jake Wagner.· But the
17· · gravamen of the complaint seems to be a sort of an
18· · out-of-focus attempt to shift -- we know you're not
19· · closing your courtroom and we know we're in there,
20· · it just doesn't seem right that we can't put the
21· · eye of the camera as if it were the eye of the
22· · human reporter.
23· · · · · · ·Well, 20 years ago it wouldn't have been
24· · an issue.· 30 years ago it wouldn't have been an
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·1· · issue.· And the right to first amendment press

·2· · right to be in a nonclosed courtroom has been fully
·3· · vindicated in this proceeding.· And I think we can
·4· · take the liberty, should also for the record make
·5· · it clear that we, as counsel for Mr. Wagner, have
·6· · obviously honored this Court's order issued orally
·7· · late at the end of court date yesterday and have
·8· · had no contact with Jake since yesterday morning in
·9· · the presence of prosecutors and all that.· But for
10· · the separation of witness we've not had any contact
11· · with him.· Although I think I could very safely say
12· · on his behalf, at this juncture, day 2 of his
13· · testimony, it would be his interest to continue
14· · ahead.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· To do what?
16· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· To go forward.· Not to let
17· · this linger.· The anxiety, the wait, the worry.
18· · Also cognizant of another court order we agreed to,
19· · when asked by State's counsel, in order to honor
20· · the separation of witness, Jake Wagner's jail
21· · situation has been substantially restricted.· Now,
22· · granted he's always been in jail since November
23· · 13th of 2018, but now he's being held as though
24· · he's a disciplinary problem.· And we understand
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·1· · that.· Insulate anybody in the jail from -- in a

·2· · modern jail from media accounts and television
·3· · accounts.· He is held in a very, very restrictive
·4· · situation, which, quite frankly, makes his life
·5· · even more miserable.· So I'm not here to pull a
·6· · heartstring for Jake, except to say we're his
·7· · lawyers and we want it done now.
·8· · · · · · ·And, finally, it occurred to me listening,
·9· · I wonder in an argument in the alternative for the
10· · Court itself to have to wrestle with this odd
11· · order, if I could put it that way, is there a
12· · compromise where you could very strictly order
13· · current media -- they can flip on the camera and
14· · they can flip on the recorder and they can do
15· · nothing with it until further order of the Court?
16· · And if after a hearing at some distant day with the
17· · parties to the writ of prohibition, the judge says
18· · you may never broadcast that or you can let it out.
19· · Kind of like an embargoed --
20· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Let's just stay strict with
21· · Rule 12(C).· That's what we're following.
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· You've already had that
23· · hearing specific to Jake and Angela.· You already
24· · had a hearing where the media participated.
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·1· · · · · · ·Additionally, I mean, for what it's worth,

·2· · there are concerns for Jake's safety if he were to
·3· · be televised, which is the reason he opted out.· So
·4· · I mean, even though -- these additional things that
·5· · they, you know, mentioned the Court would need to
·6· · find are absolutely present, because you're not a
·7· · very popular person in prison when you've snitched
·8· · on somebody, probably especially if it's your
·9· · brother.
10· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· I should state that out loud
11· · since I'm the one speaking for Jake as his his
12· · counsel, that is his concern.· I mean, it's a
13· · high-profile case.· We all know that.· Everybody
14· · who says, quote, a snitch in the jail prison
15· · population has a tough life.· Just leave it at
16· · that.· We all know what we're talking about.
17· · · · · · ·Jake, I think, understandably realizes, of
18· · course, people in the media know he's testifying,
19· · but if five or ten years from now his face, image,
20· · audio, video of this testimony is alive in the
21· · Internet world, that will amplify exponentially the
22· · likelihood of him facing dangers of retaliation in
23· · the prison system as a snitch.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, what we need to do is to
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·1· · get -- and I'd like to do this before we go on the

·2· · record this afternoon -- is have Saundra contact
·3· · the people that are requesting a hearing and see
·4· · when we can arrange to have a hearing.· I assume
·5· · they don't want us to have a hearing today.
·6· · · · · · ·Mr. Greiner's not here today, and I assume
·7· · he would want it on another day.
·8· · · · · · ·The question would be do we have the
·9· · hearing tomorrow morning or do we have it Friday
10· · morning?· I think that's the only choice --
11· · reasonable choice we have.
12· · · · · · ·If you want to -- and let us know -- I'd
13· · rather not start this so that when we go forward
14· · without the jury here, without the jury in the box,
15· · I'm going to address the issue of our hearing, when
16· · we're going to have it.
17· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· We'll go take care of that.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And it's my understanding too
19· · before we go off the record that the State doesn't
20· · intend -- I forgot you were there.
21· · · · · · ·It's my understanding the State doesn't
22· · intend to call any additional witnesses who have
23· · objected to being videoed and recorded, et cetera,
24· · until after we've had the opportunity to have this
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·1· · hearing, if we can have it soon.· Is that correct?

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes, Your Honor.· If we have
·3· · it Friday morning, we will not be putting on any
·4· · witnesses that are opting out other than, of
·5· · course, the current one that we're in the middle
·6· · of.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.
·8· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· And to answer your question a
·9· · little more fully, yes, I do feel like we would be
10· · prejudiced to have to stop in the middle of what is
11· · arguably a pretty important witness, and, you know,
12· · to have that -- the presentation altered at this
13· · point.· And, perhaps, you know, this might cause --
14· · I mean, our hope is to have him done before the
15· · close of business tomorrow, you know.
16· · · · · · ·If there's further delay, then you have
17· · Thursday off, and I think that is just prejudicial.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I just want to make clear
19· · that we don't want this to limit our
20· · cross-examination whenever that happens.
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Right.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· No.· Well -- all right.
23· · · · · · ·So if there's nothing else to be put on
24· · this record, we will adjourn this matter and the
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·1· · Court will -- we'll go out as soon as we have a

·2· · hearing date set on the request for hearing.
·6· · proceedings were resumed in the Court's chambers as
·7· · follows.)
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Back on the record here in the
·9· · judge's chambers.· In addition to the judge and the
10· · reporter, the bailiff is here.· This is State of
11· · Ohio, plaintiff, vs. George Washington Wagner, IV,
12· · Case Number 2018-CR-155.
13· · · · · · ·We have present in the courtroom the
14· · defendant's attorneys, Mr. Parker and Mr. Nash.· We
15· · have the prosecuting attorney, Mr. Junk, and the
16· · special prosecuting attorneys, Ms. Canepa and
17· · Mr. Wilson.· Also Mr. Meyers and Mr. Mooney and
18· · Ms. Roberts are here.· They represent Jacob Wagner,
19· · who is a witness in this case.
20· · · · · · ·The Court has had the bailiff contact the
21· · people who are requesting a hearing in the matter
22· · of Derek Myers versus the judge here 2022-CA-917.
23· · It affects this case only because -- or because, I
24· · should say of the application, I guess, of
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·1· · Rule 12(C) and whether this Court's, you know,

·2· · media order restricts -- unduly restricts the
·3· · press.· And also we have the Rule 12(C), the
·4· · superintendence rule.
·5· · · · · · ·The requesters -- the ones requesting the
·6· · hearing are available tomorrow morning at 8:30.
·7· · Correct?
·8· · · · · · ·So it's the Court's intention to schedule
·9· · that hearing.· If they're ready do that, unless
10· · there's some objection here, to go ahead and
11· · schedule that for tomorrow morning at 8:30.
12· · · · · · ·Any objections to that by any counsel
13· · here?
14· · · · · · ·Now, the question is then do we proceed
15· · with Jake this afternoon?· How do we -- as a
16· · witness.
17· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Yes.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The State wishes to proceed
19· · this afternoon with him.· But we will have --
20· · before he's off the witness stand apparently we
21· · will be having this hearing about whether he may be
22· · recorded, photographed, filmed.
23· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· And by that -- for a
24· · clarification, that's Meyers for the record -- you
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·1· · mean you will have the hearing tomorrow morning

·2· · about Jake and whether the rules will change for
·3· · him or you will have it now?
·4· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· 8:30 tomorrow morning.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, the request is being
·6· · made.· Tomorrow morning, the requesters, the ones
·7· · that requested the hearing are available.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· I just wanted to make sure.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· So does the Court intend to
10· · continue testimony this afternoon?
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, that's a question. I
12· · think the State wishes to and feels like it may be
13· · prejudice if we don't.
14· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· On Mr. Edward Jake Wagner, we
15· · concur.· We also would prefer it continue to go
16· · forward today.· "It" being Jake's testimony.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We'll have a hearing on the
18· · motion.· Again, I -- is there a motion?· I'm not
19· · sure what -- but we'll be having a hearing on
20· · what -- I'm going to allow the press to raise
21· · whatever issues they feel they may raise concerning
22· · the Court's media order and/or, I suppose,
23· · Rule 12(C) and hear the merits of that tomorrow.
24· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Does the Court intend to have
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·1· · witnesses at that hearing or just arguments?

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What my intention was is to
·3· · tell the jury to appear tomorrow at probably 10:00
·4· · rather than 9:00, and that -- start this at 8:30.
·5· · · · · · ·As far as having witnesses, I don't know
·6· · whether somebody's -- the ones who requested the
·7· · hearing are going to want to call witnesses or not.
·8· · I'm not restricting that at this point.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· In theory, you could put
10· · Derek Myers on the stand and ask him what
11· · restrictions have prevented him from covering the
12· · story.· Not broadcasting it, covering it.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Our understanding is that
14· · Mr. Greiner -- didn't he tell you, Jason, that he
15· · represented --
16· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· He told Saundra.· She asked
17· · him.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That he represented Mr. Myers
19· · or that outlet as well?
20· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· Yeah.
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Which is interesting, given
22· · that he's a not a signator on the motion.
23· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Well, maybe that happened
24· · after.
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·1· · · · · · ·Is the Court -- maybe more out of

·2· · curiosity than necessity, but will Court's counsel
·3· · be there tomorrow as well?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Say it again?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Will your lawyer be there as
·6· · well tomorrow?
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, we're going to call her
·8· · and tell her about the hearing.· She may have to
·9· · appear by phone.· That's what she did last time,
10· · appear by phone.
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I do think the Court needs to
12· · probably mention on the record that we're
13· · proceeding today pursuant to the hearing or the
14· · motions and hearings in September or whatever.
15· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· And strictly complying with
16· · Rule 12(C).
17· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· And final thought, if I may,
18· · for Edward Jake Wagner, when he's back in the box
19· · before the jury's in the room, I would ask the
20· · Court to, however short, sweet, complete words come
21· · to your mind, Judge, let him know that as he
22· · continues to testify this afternoon he is not being
23· · audio or videoed recorded.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, does he even know that's
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·1· · an option?
·2· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· We haven't talked to him.
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I think that he probably
·4· · does, Your Honor.· Even -- yeah.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· What I want to guard against
·6· · it the worry that human nature being what it is
·7· · that somebody in the security detail had casually
·8· · mentioned this is going on.· And, again, I'm not
·9· · pointing any finger or blame, it's just somebody
10· · has been --
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I have been raising that in
12· · front of these --
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I know the people in the
14· · audience know.
15· · · · · · ·MS. ROBERTS:· I think the word has gotten
16· · around.
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· So, you know, because we've
18· · not permitted Mr. Meyers -- the offer was that
19· · Mr. Parker and I be present when he let's Jake know
20· · what's going on, but because we're precluding his
21· · counsel from advising him and letting him know, I
22· · don't think it's -- there's certainly no prejudice
23· · for George Wagner for the Court to tell Jake out of
24· · the hearing of the jury that, you know, we're going
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·1· · to be proceeding and for the duration of your

·2· · testimony today you will not be recorded.· Maybe
·3· · that's also a notice to the media too, I don't
·4· · know.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, we would object to
·6· · that.· I mean, as far as the witness knows, he's on
·7· · an extended lunch break.
·8· · · · · · ·MS. ROBERTS:· We don't know what he knows.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Well, there's no reason to
10· · think otherwise.· There's no reason to think
11· · otherwise.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It doesn't do any harm and it
13· · certainly doesn't prejudice your client for that
14· · reassurance in the event that he has been.
15· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Maybe on the heels of
16· · Mr. Parker's comment, maybe the Court could simply
17· · turn to Mr. Wagner and go it was a long break, did
18· · anybody give you any information as to the reason
19· · for this three hour -- it's now three hours and
20· · like seven minutes since he left the stand. I
21· · mean, I agree with Mr. Parker's comment.· I'm not
22· · claiming there's rock solid proof that somebody's
23· · whispered in Jake's ear.· I think the odds of that
24· · having happened are substantial.· But if you were
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·1· · to ask him, have you heard any explanation and he

·2· · goes, no, then fine.· We'll move on.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· And what if he says yes?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm not going any farther than
·5· · that, though.· I don't want to raise this issue
·6· · about filming to these witnesses.· We've given them
·7· · an option, they've taken it and that's the way we
·8· · deal with it.· Nor do I want it to sound like on
·9· · the record I'm defying a court order, because I
10· · don't want to do that either.
11· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Well, Mr. Mooney will
12· · represent you.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· But we do need to get -- is
14· · Sandra getting Sark on the phone?· Do you know?
15· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· I don't know.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is there anything else we need
17· · put on the record?
18· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· No.· Thank you, Judge.
19· · · · · · ·(Counsel returned to open court and the
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The Court has received a
22· · request for a hearing concerning the filming,
23· · videotaping, recording, or taking of photographs of
24· · witnesses who object to being videotaped, filmed,
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·1· · recorded, or photographed.· We've set a hearing on

·2· · that issue for tomorrow morning at 8:30 a.m.
·3· · · · · · ·We have notified, it's my understanding,
·4· · Mr. Greiner, John Greiner, who indicates he
·5· · represents several media outlets.· He indicated
·6· · that that was an acceptable time to have that.
·7· · · · · · ·The Court, as many may be aware, some may
·8· · not be aware -- but Rule 12(C) of the Ohio Rules of
·9· · Superintendence for the Courts in Ohio, (C)(2), to
10· · be exact, states "The Judge shall inform victims
11· · and witnesses of their right to object to being
12· · filmed, videotaped, recorded, or photographed."
13· · And a commentary to that rule states "The filming,
14· · videotaping, recording or taking of photographs of
15· · victims or witnesses who object shall not be
16· · permitted."
17· · · · · · ·On September 2nd, 2022, in this case, the
18· · Court received a motion.· A motion was filed that
19· · day by John -- Attorney John Greiner, indicating
20· · that he represented the Cincinnati Enquirer,
21· · Sinclair Broadcasting, WLWT, WCPO, WXIX, The Scioto
22· · Valley Guardian, Court TV, and Law and Crime TV,
23· · and -- asking for an order permitting the recording
24· · of the testimony of Jake and Angela Wagner and for
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·1· · an order permitting the audio recording of any

·2· · witness who opts out of being video-recorded, and
·3· · for the placement of a second camera to record the
·4· · lawyers interrogating the witnesses.
·5· · · · · · ·That motion was filed on September 2nd,
·6· · 2022.· The Court set a hearing on that motion for
·7· · September 9, 2022.· Directed that the State and the
·8· · defense could file responses.· The State did file a
·9· · response on September 8th indicating that --
10· · requesting that the petitioner's motion be denied.
11· · The defense filed a motion -- filed a response also
12· · on September 8th asking that that motion be denied.
13· · And the movants filed a supplemental memorandum in
14· · support of the motion on September 8th, 2022, and
15· · the Court, by journal entry of September 9, 2022,
16· · on the authority of the Supreme Court Rule of
17· · Superintendence 12(C), denied that motion; ruling
18· · that essentially that those who objected to being
19· · filmed, videotaped, recorded or photographed would
20· · not be filmed, videotaped, recorded or
21· · photographed.
22· · · · · · ·Subsequent to that, the Court has received
23· · a complaint for alternative writ of prohibition,
24· · and so we will be having a hearing.
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·1· · · · · · ·The Court wants to make it clear, the

·2· · Court's media order is not the authority for
·3· · failing -- for ordering that the filming,
·4· · videotaping, recording and taking of photographs of
·5· · those who object is not permitted.· The authority
·6· · for that is not the Court's media order, this
·7· · Court's media order; it is Rule 12(C) of the Ohio
·8· · Rules of Superintendence.
·9· · · · · · ·So at the hearing tomorrow morning,
10· · Mr. Greiner and other media outlets that aren't
11· · represented by Mr. Greiner will be -- have an
12· · opportunity to argue whether they should be
13· · permitted to film, videotape, record, or take
14· · photographs of witnesses who -- witnesses who
15· · object to it.
16· · · · · · ·Today we are going to have -- continue
17· · with the State's questioning of Mr. Wagner under
18· · the same rules that we've been operating.
19· · · · · · ·Is the State ready to have Mr. Wagner
20· · brought in?
21· · · · · · ·Is the defense ready?
22· · · · · · ·The State's indicated ready -- that
23· · they're ready.
24· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, we are ready.
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·1· · · · · · ·Just to make the record clear, we did not

·2· · receive any service of a request for a hearing
·3· · tomorrow morning, but we'll be here.
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Okay.· All right.
·5· · · · · · ·Well, this was set up, I guess we could
·6· · say, this afternoon.· The request for hearing was
·7· · made this afternoon.· I know present counsel will
·8· · be here because we're scheduled for hearing.· We
·9· · will probably be bringing the jury in a little
10· · later than usual so that we can have the hearing on
11· · this media issue.
12· · · · · · ·We need Mr. Wagner, Bailiff.· And then,
13· · following his being seated here, then we will need
14· · to have the jury brought up.
15· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· Yes, Your Honor.
16· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Can we approach?
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
21· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· The only thing that may not
22· · be 100 percent clear from that colloquy there is
23· · that the media -- he's still opting out.· That he's
24· · still not to be filmed until -- that's not clear on
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·1· · that or not.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What is it?
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Based on the Court's decision
·4· · in September.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Let's have Mr. Wagner put back
·9· · in here.
10· · · · · · ·Mr. Wagner has objected to being
11· · videotaped, filmed, photographed or recorded, and
12· · we've have proceeded this far with this testimony
13· · without that and we're proceeding in that manner
14· · until our hearing tomorrow morning at which time
15· · we'll see where we go with that.
16· · · · · · ·It's the Court's understanding that the
17· · State wishes to proceed with his testimony today;
18· · is that correct?
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That is correct, Your Honor.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And the defense --
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We don't object.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Now we can have
23· · Mr. Wagner.
24· · · · · · ·(Jake Wagner returned to the witness
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·1· · stand.)
·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We now need the jury.
·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Huh?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I was just telling the bailiff
·5· · we need the jury.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is the State ready to resume
·8· · its direct questioning of the witness?
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The State may proceed.
15· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to show you a couple of
16· · photographs of the pond, lake.· What you do you
17· · refer to that as at the Flying W?
18· · · · A.· ·Lake.
19· · · · Q.· ·Lake.
20· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit SSS-2 was thereupon
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· State's Exhibit SS-2, which
23· · is 0197.
24· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Should be SSS-2.
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·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· SSS-2.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us, does that orient you?
·4· · · · A.· ·What's that?
·5· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell what you're looking at?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, is there a
·8· · place in that picture where that geese house would
·9· · have gone?
10· · · · A.· ·Just in the center out by that blue tent
11· · thing.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · · · ·I'll have you go ahead -- it's going to be
14· · a little reach then.
15· · · · A.· ·About right there.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·Ish.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And when you said you pulled
19· · your vehicle up, would the vehicle have been -- or
20· · you backed your vehicle up, I believe, to that
21· · location.· Where would your vehicle have been in
22· · that photograph?
23· · · · A.· ·About where the blue tent thing is.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
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·1· · · · · · ·All right.· I'd like to talk to you at

·2· · this time a little bit about a person by the name
·3· · of Tabitha, once Wagner, Tabitha Claytor.
·4· · · · · · ·Can you tell me who that is?
·5· · · · A.· ·My ex-sister-in-law.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And do you have any idea when your brother
·7· · and she were married?
·8· · · · A.· ·They were married on October -- I'm
·9· · sorry -- July 1st, 2012.
10· · · · Q.· ·And do you know when that marriage ended?
11· · · · A.· ·When -- oh, November -- or whenever she
12· · left or when the actual divorce happened?
13· · · · Q.· ·When she left, I guess.
14· · · · A.· ·It would be November 10th or
15· · November 11th, 2014.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How do you remember that date?
17· · · · A.· ·Because the next day was my birthday and
18· · everybody forgot my birthday.
20· · · · · · ·Okay.· So can you tell us, regarding the
21· · night that she left, were you present that night?
22· · · · A.· ·I was.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us approximately
24· · what time the events that led up to her departure
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·1· · happened?· Was it morning?· Afternoon?· Evening?

·2· · · · A.· ·It was dark.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where were you when she left
·4· · the home?
·5· · · · A.· ·In the kitchen.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, did she get
·7· · into an argument with George?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes, she did.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you see her do anything
10· · physically to George?
11· · · · A.· ·I saw her hit him.
12· · · · Q.· ·You saw her hit him?
13· · · · A.· ·Well, you could call it that.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What would -- describe what you're
15· · talking about.
16· · · · A.· ·I don't know how to describe it, but in --
17· · how to describe that?· I don't mean this an offense
18· · because you're a woman, but when women usually get
19· · in a hysterical state, they sort of, like, start
20· · slapping you with both hands in, like, a head type
21· · thing, like an emotional craze maybe.· Similar to
22· · that.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So are you saying smacking him
24· · or --
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·1· · · · A.· ·I'm not necessarily sure if her hands were

·2· · open or fisted, but she was in a state, I'd say.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who else was present at that
·4· · time?
·5· · · · A.· ·My mother and Hanna.· Oh, and George
·6· · obviously.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where was George standing when
·8· · you were observing that happening?
·9· · · · A.· ·He was just inside the bedroom.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Whose bedroom?
11· · · · A.· ·George's.
12· · · · Q.· ·So was he in the doorway or someplace else
13· · in the --
14· · · · A.· ·The kitchen is directly across from his
15· · bedroom.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·So the doorway being open, you can see
18· · directly into from the kitchen.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what happened
20· · next?
21· · · · A.· ·Let's see here.· Myself, my mother, and
22· · Hanna was in the kitchen with Bulvine and Sophia;
23· · both were in their highchairs.· After their
24· · argument -- still ongoing argument, she had stomped
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·1· · into the kitchen and said she was leaving and tried
·2· · to yank Bulvine out of the highchair.· She -- I'm
·3· · going to use the word forcibly yanked him out of
·4· · the highchair while George was telling her she was
·5· · not going to take him.· And as she was doing that,
·6· · she had gone -- forced past my brother.· And
·7· · Bulvine was crying.· As she moved through the
·8· · kitchen door -- it has a separate door you can shut
·9· · to conceal the whole kitchen.· That door being
10· · open, it kind of sticks out into the kitchen a
11· · little bit.· And as she was forcing past, she had
12· · knocked my nephew Bulvine's head against the door
13· · frame which caused him to wail.· And my brother
14· · tried to take Bulvine from her.· And she had
15· · mumbled something of -- I don't know.· Something
16· · like I'm done, fine, something like that.· And
17· · thrust Bulvine to my brother's arms.· Practically
18· · dropped him before he even had ahold of him.· He
19· · didn't drop him, but -- and then stomped out of the
20· · door and said, I'm leaving.
21· · · · · · ·That's not necessarily a quote, but that's
22· · along the lines of what was said.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And -- but she left the residence?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what happened?

·2· · · · A.· ·Hmm.· At that point, I think -- I think
·3· · immediately or at least within 5 minutes or so,
·4· · maybe 10 minutes, I had told George that I would go
·5· · out and look for her, try to talk to her or
·6· · something.· And I had gone outside and I looked in
·7· · the barn, looked in the very front fence, looked
·8· · under my truck I was working on and I could not
·9· · find her, so I went back to the house and said I
10· · couldn't find her.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, ultimately, did you and your
12· · brother go back out and try to find her in a
13· · vehicle?
14· · · · A.· ·Ultimately, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you make further attempts there
16· · before you went away in the vehicle?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
19· · · · A.· ·Oh, wait.· You talking about me and George
20· · or just as a whole?
21· · · · Q.· ·Just anybody.
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And was anyone able to find her on the
24· · property?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so when you and George went in
·3· · a vehicle, do you recall which vehicle you took?
·4· · · · A.· ·I think it was my mother's Suburban, but
·5· · I'm not sure on that.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who was in the vehicle at that
·7· · time?
·8· · · · A.· ·Just myself and my brother.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you find Tabitha?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And where was she?
12· · · · A.· ·She was alongside the highway at the
13· · intersection of State Route 40 and 32 in Peebles.
14· · · · Q.· ·And do you have any idea approximately how
15· · far away that is from your residence on
16· · Peterson Road?
17· · · · A.· ·A mile, maybe.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you have any conversation
19· · with her at that time?
20· · · · A.· ·I did not.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did your brother have a
22· · conversation with her?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you guys do next?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·As she was -- she was on a bicycle.· She

·2· · was peddling her bicycle through the corner of the
·3· · intersection.· There's a small truck stop, gas
·4· · station.· As she was going through there, we
·5· · followed alongside of her while he was talking to
·6· · her, and she went into the gas station while we
·7· · pulled over to the side and parked.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what happened then?
·9· · · · A.· ·I had told my brother that she was
10· · probably going to call the cops and write a report,
11· · so I told him he was going to have to do it first
12· · because, rule of thumb, first one called is first
13· · one served, or right or wrong, however you would
14· · like to pronounce that.
15· · · · · · ·So I told him he would have to call and
16· · file a complaint or a charge or whatever you want
17· · to call that on Tabitha before she did on him.
18· · · · · · ·He was reluctant to do that.· I told him I
19· · can't do it for you, you'll have to do it.
20· · Practically had to -- I can't say I forced him, but
21· · practically had to severely encourage him to do it.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
23· · · · A.· ·So he was like -- do you want me to finish
24· · that?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· Sorry.

·2· · · · A.· ·So he reluctantly had to call, file a
·3· · domestic charge report, complaint thing.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So did you call 911?
·5· · · · A.· ·I didn't make the phone call, so I don't
·6· · know.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You don't -- you don't know whether
·8· · he called 911 or not?
·9· · · · A.· ·I assume.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you present when he made the
11· · phone call?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I don't remember what was said.
13· · · · Q.· ·That's fine.
14· · · · · · ·I'm just wondering if that phone call
15· · happened while you were still in the truck right
16· · near the gas station?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Had Tabitha said anything to make
19· · you believe she was going to file a police report?
20· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And had you seen George or anybody
22· · else assault her?
23· · · · A.· ·Did I see George assault her?
24· · · · Q.· ·Did you see George or anyone else assault
YVer1f
·1· · her that night?

·2· · · · A.· ·Assault Tabitha?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you hear anyone make any
·6· · threats to her?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·9· · · · A.· ·Well, to her or just said?
10· · · · Q.· ·Just said.
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And who made the statement that you're
13· · talking about?
14· · · · A.· ·My mother.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what statement was that?
16· · · · A.· ·She had said -- in her frustration, as
17· · Tabitha was going out the door, she had throwed her
18· · hands up, said, "That's it, I'm getting my gun."
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Does your mom own a gun?
20· · · · A.· ·She does.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that would have been something
22· · that Tabitha heard?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Well, where was Tabitha when that comment

·2· · was made?
·3· · · · A.· ·Walking out the door.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you encourage your brother to
·5· · call the police and file a report against Tabitha
·6· · because you were concerned she was going to call
·7· · and do the same, file a police report?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What -- do the police come?
10· · · · A.· ·They did.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, to your knowledge, was a
12· · complaint made by George against Tabitha?
13· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.· I wasn't there when they
14· · were actually talking to the police officer.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you did not talk to the police
16· · that night?
17· · · · A.· ·I think I may have initially spoke when he
18· · arrived.· I don't know what the extent of what I
19· · spoke to him about was.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · A.· ·And I cannot remember what I -- was said
22· · between me and him.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you leave that area?
24· · · · A.· ·Not out of sight, but yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did anybody else come to the

·2· · gas station at that time?
·3· · · · A.· ·At that point Hanna had showed up in her
·4· · vehicle.· That's why I was no longer at that point
·5· · because I was in the car with her.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And anybody else?· Your mother or father
·7· · or anybody else that you recall?
·8· · · · A.· ·Not that I remember, no.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know what became of that
10· · complaint?
11· · · · A.· ·I don't think anything did.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, after that was
13· · there a court proceeding regarding custody of
14· · Bulvine?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Well -- and the divorce, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.· The divorce or resolution.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you aware of -- if George
19· · had an attorney or not?
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection to all this, Judge.
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I asked if he's aware.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to let him answer
23· · that.· That's a yes or no.
24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how are you aware of that?
·3· · · · A.· ·I can remember him having appointments to
·4· · go talk to his lawyer.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·6· · · · A.· ·I was never present.· I don't know who it
·7· · was or what the extent of it was.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Did you go with him to court on the day of
·9· · his divorce?
10· · · · A.· ·I did not.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you aware or not whether or
12· · not Tabitha had an attorney?
13· · · · A.· ·I don't --
16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know the outcome of the --
19· · or what the custody order was regarding Bulvine?
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Are you aware?· I'll permit
22· · him to answer that.· That's a yes or no.
23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How are you aware?

·2· · · · A.· ·Overhear -- overheard the outcome when my
·3· · mother and George was talking about it.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us what your
·5· · understanding of the custody arrangements were?
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to sustain that
·8· · unless it's clear what he would be basing his
·9· · information on.
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And that may be objectionable
12· · or not, but I'm going to sustain the objection.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What -- did you overhear your
15· · brother and mother talking about that?
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The way the question is asked
18· · I'm going to overrule the objection, but you're not
19· · to give the information that you heard, just what
20· · was the subject matter of the discussion.
21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat that?
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What was the -- ask the
23· · question again.· Let me hear the question again.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I said, "What did you
YVer1f
·1· · overhear them saying?"

·3· · objection because that would include statements,
·4· · perhaps, that are hearsay and not admissible.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You were made aware of the outcome of the
·8· · proceedings; correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was talked about in the
11· · home in front of you, et cetera?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you and George continued to live
14· · together after that proceeding was final; correct?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, specifically, at that time you
17· · were living at Peterson Road; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Were you present anytime that Tabitha
20· · would exercise visitation rights with Bulvine?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And do you know where those occurred?
23· · · · A.· ·The times I was present, the majority was
24· · in the front yard, but some was in the house.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And front yard and house where?

·2· · · · A.· ·Peterson.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you aware of any time that she
·4· · had visitation where it wasn't at your address or
·5· · with one of you present?
·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Is your question to where
·9· · it's not on the Peterson property, or is it not
10· · with me present?
12· · · · Q.· ·Well, we can take that one at a time.
13· · · · · · ·Are you aware of any times that occurred
14· · not at Peterson Road?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of any time where one of
17· · you -- one of you, George, your dad or mom was not
18· · present?
19· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Was that an objection?
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yeah.· Can we approach?
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The microphone's on the floor.
24· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'm sorry, Judge.· I need to
YVer1f
·1· · speak up.

·2· · · · · · ·Can we approach?
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, the order that George
·8· · received from the Court was that all visits were to
·9· · be supervised.
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.· I tried to get him to
11· · say that, but you wouldn't let him.
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I know you're asking about
13· · visitations, and that would be against the Court
14· · order.· How can he testify about something that he
15· · wasn't present for?
16· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I asked him if he was aware
17· · of any visits that happened that were not
18· · supervised.
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Right.· That would be
20· · contrary to the court order, and there's no factual
21· · basis for it.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, is that the question in
23· · front of him right now?
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He already answered that
YVer1f
·1· · question.
·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That's what I thought.
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· But that is his direct
·4· · observation.· He lived in the home.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I permitted that.· Was that --
·6· · is that what you're objecting to, that answer?
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He can't observe -- it's like
·8· · she's asking him did you see something that didn't
·9· · happen?
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He's unaware that she saw him
11· · that was not supervised.· That is a fair question.
12· · You can cross him.
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Of course, I can cross him
14· · some day.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll overrule the objection.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The Court will overrule the
20· · objection.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I'm going to ask that again just
23· · so -- because I don't know what point we got
24· · interrupted.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Were you aware of any time of Tabitha

·2· · visiting with Bulvine that was not supervised by
·3· · one of you four Wagners?
·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, Jake, you talked
·9· · about the door of George's room being directly
10· · across from the kitchen.
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Is that right?· So that was on the first
13· · floor?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Was any other bedrooms on the first floor
16· · of that house?
17· · · · A.· ·No.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How many -- so that was a two-story
19· · home; is that fair?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·How many bedrooms were on the second
22· · floor?
23· · · · A.· ·Two.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And while you lived at
YVer1f
·1· · Peterson Road -- let's go after Tabitha had left --

·2· · who stayed in which bedrooms?
·3· · · · A.· ·My mother's bedroom was upstairs.· My
·4· · bedroom was upstairs, and still my brother's
·5· · bedroom was downstairs.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And while you were at Peterson,
·7· · would anybody else stay in your bedroom with you?
·8· · · · A.· ·Well, I mean, during the relationship, it
·9· · was myself and Hanna.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And after your relationship with
11· · Hanna?
12· · · · A.· ·Just me and Sophia.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did Sophia stay in there when Hanna
14· · was with you?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So it was always you and Sophia
17· · and, during the relationship, also Hanna; is that
18· · fair?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you said your mother's
21· · bedroom was also upstairs?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And who would stay in that bedroom with
24· · her?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·With her?

·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Or did anyone, I should say.
·3· · · · A.· ·The times Dad was there, he did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · A.· ·And when -- I would say mostly my nephew,
·6· · Bulvine.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if your dad was there, would
·8· · Bulvine also be in the bedroom?
·9· · · · A.· ·Sometimes.· He didn't like sharing bed
10· · space.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if your dad was there and
12· · Bulvine didn't sleep in that room, where would
13· · Bulvine sleep?
14· · · · A.· ·In George's room.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us where the
16· · stairs are in relation to George's room?
17· · · · A.· ·The outside of the wall.
18· · · · Q.· ·Outside of the wall?
19· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the stairs ran alongside the
21· · wall of his bedroom?
22· · · · A.· ·So standing in the doorway of the kitchen,
23· · you would look to -- looking through into the
24· · house, then George's bedroom would be on the bottom
YVer1f
·1· · on the right-hand side, and on that left-hand wall

·2· · would be the stairs.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· During the time that -- well, you
·4· · indicated that Tabitha and George got married in
·5· · July of 2012; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And during that time, was there ever a
·8· · time that you or anyone else in the home believed
·9· · that she had poisoned someone in the house, food
10· · poisoning or anything else?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · A.· ·I don't remember the incident very well.
14· · I do remember how Tabitha had an argument of some
15· · kind early in the week.· And after my brother had
16· · come home from the road the day before I was
17· · supposed to go out, I believe that it was discussed
18· · somehow that Tabitha was supposed to -- I can't
19· · remember it very well.· That may have faded from
20· · memory.· But somehow or another, after I went on
21· · the road, a day or so afterwards, both my mom,
22· · George, and I think -- I don't know if -- no, I
23· · don't think it was Hanna.· Maybe, maybe not.· And
24· · Bulvine all had had a -- at least symptoms such as
YVer1f
·1· · a severe stomach virus close to food poisoning or

·2· · such whatever that lasted the whole week I was
·3· · gone, but yet Tabitha did not.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And had she prepared food or
·5· · something or why was she suspicious?· Was it just
·6· · because of the fact that she did not have the
·7· · virus?
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis?
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I don't think he was present
11· · for this.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Say it again.
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He was not present; he was on
14· · the road.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, we have to have some
16· · foundation for his knowledge, so I will sustain the
17· · objection.
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.· Sure.
20· · · · Q.· ·How do you know that Tabitha was
21· · suspected?
22· · · · A.· ·My brother told me.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us if there was
24· · another time where she was suspected of stealing
YVer1f
·1· · money?
·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection to this, Judge. I
·3· · don't know what the relevance is.
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I think we're going to
·5· · have to be more specific than that, so I'm going to
·6· · sustain the objection.· Who's speculative and so
·7· · forth.· So I'm going to sustain the objection.
·8· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well -- okay.
10· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of anytime where it was
11· · suspected that Tabitha stole money?
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I think it's the same
14· · question, so I'm going to sustain --
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, can we approach
16· · on this?
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Accused or suspected is a
22· · mental process.
23· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.· I didn't realize that
24· · was the --
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· But I think it is through the

·2· · theory of the State's case.
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, Tabitha already
·4· · testified too and was available for
·5· · cross-examination.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· But to accuse somebody is a --
·7· · suspected is a process.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's a time frame.
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I can't get to that.· If I
10· · say were you aware of a time, I'll say when was
11· · that?
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· So -- all right.
13· · · · · · ·I'm going to sustain the objection to the
14· · form of the question.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The Court will sustain the
19· · objection to the form of the question.
20· · · · · · ·You may not answer that question, but you
21· · may have some more questions perhaps.
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.· Thank you, Your Honor.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Jake, are you aware of a time when Tabitha

·2· · was accused of stealing money from you guys?
·5· · · · · · ·You may answer that.
·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you educate me on
·7· · specifically the meaning of accused?
·8· · · · · · ·Does that mean, per se, I'm directly
·9· · coming to you and accusing you to your face, or if
10· · I'm telling someone else that she had -- I'm
11· · accusing someone else of telling somebody?· Which
12· · one are you saying?
14· · · · Q.· ·Either one.· Whether she was accused
15· · directly or whether she was accused in conversation
16· · with other people.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule the
19· · objection.
20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I am not aware of a time she
21· · was accused face to face, but she had been accused
22· · of stealing money, yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell me about that?
YVer1f
·1· · When was that?· What were the circumstances?

·2· · · · A.· ·I can't give great detail.· There was
·3· · multiple times.· The only details I can remember is
·4· · when -- once when Tabitha and both my mother worked
·5· · for my grandmother for her organization called
·6· · Crystal Springs Home, a home for the mentally
·7· · retarded, and my mother had went into an
·8· · appointment of some kind with one of the clients
·9· · and left her purse inside the car with Tabitha, but
10· · after she had got home that evening there was
11· · supposedly, like, 100 or $200 missing from a
12· · certain area that my mother kept hidden away in her
13· · purse.
14· · · · · · ·And several other times it happened
15· · similar to that, both in-home and out.· Not just my
16· · mom's purse, but also money that my mother and we
17· · all had kept in, like, a little coffee can inside
18· · the house.
19· · · · · · ·And even one time from -- what do you call
20· · that thing?· A woman's wallet, I guess you call it.
21· · Not a purse, but a little boxy thing women carry.
22· · Hanna had had a pink one that I had bought her and
23· · apparently had put, like, 5, 10, $15, something
24· · like that in it at one time.· It had mysteriously
YVer1f
·1· · come up missing a day or so.

·2· · · · · · ·But those -- other than that, that's the
·3· · only thing that I can detailably -- or detail
·4· · remember.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so were there -- was there
·6· · anytime when somebody observed her actually
·7· · stealing, or was it just suspicion and -- because
·8· · of the circumstances of money was there and then it
·9· · was gone?
10· · · · A.· ·I do remember some- -- I don't know if it
11· · was George or Mom.· Somebody had said they was
12· · going to -- I don't know if they said the term set
13· · a trap to see if it was actually happening.· But I
14· · don't remember if it was actually done or what the
15· · outcome was.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were aware of Tabitha's history
17· · of being molested when she was a child?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you were aware that that had never
20· · been reported to the authorities?
21· · · · A.· ·To my understanding, yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us if you were interested or
23· · not in preventing Tabitha from having visits with
24· · Bulvine unsupervised?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Specifically unsupervised?

·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Going back to the homicides.· At
·5· · some point around the one-year anniversary of the
·6· · homicides, does BCI begin to make contact with you
·7· · again?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You talked about a month or so
10· · after the homicide you were contacted and that's
11· · when you started worrying about people listening or
12· · hearing conversations.
13· · · · · · ·Was that the only time you were contacted
14· · by BCI until the one-year anniversary?
15· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure on that.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you do remember contact around
17· · the one-year anniversary?
18· · · · A.· ·I think.
19· · · · Q.· ·Let me ask it to you a different way.
20· · When did you go to Alaska?
21· · · · A.· ·May of 2017.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, before you
23· · went to Alaska, did BCI make contact with you?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall who from BCI made

·2· · contact with you?
·3· · · · A.· ·There was a few different agents.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember any of them?
·5· · · · A.· ·I believe the first one I met was an
·6· · Agent Stefonish -- Steffan or Stefon may have been
·7· · first name, last name; I'm not sure.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·9· · · · A.· ·There was a couple others I cannot
10· · remember names.· And the one I had most contact
11· · with is Agent Scheiderer, which is present.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Present here in the courtroom?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall when Agent Steffan was
15· · meeting with you, anything that he wanted from you
16· · at that time?
17· · · · A.· ·I do remember a meeting that occurred in
18· · my front yard, and he did request my cell phone.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us if you gave him
20· · your cell phone at that time?
21· · · · A.· ·I did not.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was anybody else present with
23· · you at that time?· Anyone from your family present
24· · with you in the front yard at the time?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I do not think so, no.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anybody else ask for your cell
·3· · phone after that?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Ultimately, did you have to provide
·6· · your cell phone to BCI?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall when that was?
·9· · · · A.· ·I don't remember the timing, but I do
10· · remember the event.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was that before you had gone to
12· · Alaska?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall how close in time that
15· · was to when you went to Alaska?
16· · · · A.· ·Within a couple months.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, prior to going to
18· · Alaska and even prior to the homicide, do you
19· · recall Googling places to live in Alaska on --
20· · specifically on that phone?
21· · · · A.· ·Is your question before the homicides?
22· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·You don't recall that?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No, I do not.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, had you ever been
·3· · to Alaska before May of 2017?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·When had you been to Alaska?
·6· · · · A.· ·I believe it was in August 2007.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·8· · · · A.· ·It may have been '06.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And did you have some interest in going
10· · back to Alaska?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And from when?· From the first time
13· · you went there or some time after that?
14· · · · A.· ·From the first time.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you went up to Alaska in May
16· · of '17, what was your purpose at that time?
17· · · · A.· ·In May was to secure job options or job
18· · opportunities and possibly a piece of property.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you do either one of those
20· · things while you were up there?
21· · · · A.· ·No.
22· · · · Q.· ·How long were you up there that time?
23· · · · A.· ·Less than a week.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you went there -- well, first
YVer1f
·1· · of all, did you tell BCI that you were going to go
·2· · to Alaska?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And did you also tell them approximately
·5· · when you would be returning?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·While you were on your way up to Alaska,
·8· · did you learn that BCI was conducting a search of
·9· · the Peterson Road property?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·How did you find that out?
12· · · · A.· ·I believe it was my Grandmother Wagner who
13· · had called my father.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what information did you have
15· · regarding that search as far as what kind of
16· · activities were occurring on the property?
18· · · · · · ·Objection, Your Honor.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, the basis of that
20· · objection is?
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He has no personal knowledge.
22· · He's getting it second, third-hand.
23· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, I am not offering
24· · this for the proof of the matter, but for later --
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Why are you offering it then?

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· If we could approach,
·7· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, this is for the
·8· · effect it had on his state of mind.· We're not
·9· · offering it for the truth of the matter asserted.
10· · We already had numerous BCI agents talk about the
11· · searches and what was done, but the information he
12· · has told then later shapes their, as I recall it,
13· · candid, responses basically.
14· · · · · · ·So, in other words, they knew we were out
15· · there with metal detectors and such.
16· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· It's not what they were
17· · looking for; it's what he believed they were
18· · looking for, in his mind.· Were told they were
19· · looking for.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Right.· It's not being
21· · offered for the truth of the matter asserted.
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's from his grandmother to
23· · his father to --
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· What information he was told
YVer1f
·1· · about what was happening.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· To explain his actions later
·3· · or what?
·4· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes.· Yes.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Well, I'll allow
·6· · it.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Note our objection.· Thank
·8· · you.
13· · objection.
16· · · · Q.· ·What were you told was occurring at your
17· · property?
18· · · · A.· ·I can't remember specific term, but
19· · basically that the police was searching the
20· · property.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I could not hear the
23· · last response.· I could not hear the last response.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Basically I was told that

·2· · the property we just sold was being searched.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Thank you.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us how that made you
·6· · feel?
·7· · · · A.· ·Well, to be honest, I was not nervous.
·8· · Maybe -- well, I was upset about it, but I -- I
·9· · can't exactly remember what the type emotions
10· · specifically were.· I was angry with Mr. Scheiderer
11· · because I had told him I was coming back and if he
12· · needed information or whatever, I would be happy to
13· · help him.· And at the time it kind of seemed like
14· · he was -- I'm going to use the term like toying
15· · with me a little bit.· But that's really the only
16· · emotions that I pretty much had.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was anyone else in the family
18· · concerned?
19· · · · A.· ·I believe there was -- when you use the
20· · word concerned, I believe all was concerned.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did it prompt any discussions
22· · amongst you --
23· · · · · · ·Well, I guess, were you concerned about
24· · them finding various items at Peterson Road?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you discuss, as a family, what
·3· · to say if you were questioned about the night of
·4· · the homicides?
·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Is this question directed
·8· · for after the search was made aware to us or is
·9· · this in general?
11· · · · Q.· ·In general.
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And what was that?· What were you supposed
14· · to say?
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Your Honor, the question can
18· · be put to him, but he can't speak to others.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's coconspirator,
20· · Your Honor.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, maybe it does need some
22· · more foundation about when, where and who, that
23· · kind of thing.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I will sustain the objection.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Who was involved in those discussions?
·4· · · · A.· ·I can only remember twice.· And, to my
·5· · memory, I believe all four of us was present.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were you supposed to say?
·7· · · · A.· ·The first one was to -- what's the word
·8· · I'm looking for?· Agree with an alibi.· This was
·9· · before the homicide.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
11· · · · A.· ·Which was just all at home watching TV.
12· · And after we become aware of the search, it was
13· · very brief.· I can't remember much of anything
14· · other than just remain silent, don't -- how do I
15· · say that?· I think my dad said something don't --
16· · don't fall for their games or something like that.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you were supposed to say
18· · that you were all at home watching TV, was that to
19· · say that all four of you were at home watching TV?
20· · · · A.· ·Well, specifically six, but yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Sorry.· And were you supposed to say
22· · specifically what you were watching on TV?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall what that was?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I do not now, no.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But it was a specific program or
·3· · movie or something along those lines?
·4· · · · A.· ·I believe it was a movie.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was there any discussion of what to
·6· · say about your and Hanna's custody situation?
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, your basis is?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, when?· Who was
10· · involved?
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Say that again.
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· When?· Who was involved?
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, I will ask that if he
14· · says yes.· If he says no, that'll be -- I said was
15· · there any discussion regarding custody documents?
16· · That's a yes-or-no question.· Or custody documents.
17· · Custody situation.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You're saying was there ever?
19· · I mean, I need some time frame.· I'm going to
20· · sustain the objection.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In relation to the homicides and
23· · using your term alibis, was there any discussion
24· · amongst you and any of the other three individuals
YVer1f
·1· · about what to say regarding your custody situation

·2· · with Hanna?
·3· · · · A.· ·To the BCI?
·4· · · · Q.· ·To the authorities, yes.
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·When you came back to the United States
·7· · after being in Alaska that first time -- first of
·8· · all, how did you travel to Alaska?
·9· · · · A.· ·Through Canada.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you in one vehicle?· Two
11· · vehicles?
12· · · · A.· ·In May?
13· · · · Q.· ·In May.
14· · · · A.· ·One vehicle.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who all went on that trip?
16· · · · A.· ·Myself, my brother, my mother, my father,
17· · my daughter, and my nephew.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what port of entry did you exit
19· · the United States that trip?
20· · · · A.· ·North Dakota.
21· · · · Q.· ·And when you returned, what port of entry
22· · did you return through?
23· · · · A.· ·Montana.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you stopped in Montana and
YVer1f
·1· · talked to by BCI?

·2· · · · A.· ·I wouldn't use that word, but yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· After you were done talking to BCI,
·4· · did you return to the vehicle that you had arrived
·5· · in?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at the point that you returned
·8· · to the vehicle, who was all in the vehicle?
·9· · · · A.· ·My brother, my mother, my father, my
10· · nephew.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did they release Sophia to you?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And when I say "they," I mean the people
14· · at the border, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you talk about what had
17· · happened when you got into the vehicle?
18· · · · A.· ·I think I made a few brief statements of
19· · sorts, but no.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us why you did not
21· · talk about it other than those few brief
22· · statements?
23· · · · A.· ·Because the assumption of the vehicle had
24· · been bugged.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was that assumption discussed or

·2· · you just made that assumption apparently along with
·3· · everybody else?
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, was it discussed? I
·6· · think that -- so I'll sustain the objection to the
·7· · rest of the question, but I'll permit that answer.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Was it discussed, the concern that the
10· · vehicle was bugged?
11· · · · A.· ·No.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anybody else talk about what
13· · had happened or what -- you said you did not
14· · discuss it based on the assumption that the vehicle
15· · was bugged.
16· · · · · · ·Did anybody in the car talk about what had
17· · happened?
18· · · · A.· ·I think my mom may have said something,
19· · but I can't remember for sure.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· After you left the border, where
21· · did you go?
22· · · · A.· ·The nearby hospital.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you go to the nearby
24· · hospital?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Because my nephew, Bulvine, had said that

·2· · the border patrol or whoever was of the authorities
·3· · watching them during the interrogation gave him and
·4· · -- I think he said him.· He may have said him and
·5· · Sophia -- sleepy Kool-Aid juice or something.
·6· · · · · · ·So we had taken them to the hospital to
·7· · get a urine sample to see if they had been given
·8· · any type of sedation -- sedative.· Any type of
·9· · sedative.
10· · · · Q.· ·And had he?
11· · · · A.· ·There was -- to my understanding, the test
12· · result was negative.
13· · · · Q.· ·Was there also concern that Tabitha had
14· · been at the border?
15· · · · A.· ·That kind of sounds familiar, but I
16· · don't -- I don't know.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you return to Ohio then?
18· · · · A.· ·What was that?
19· · · · Q.· ·Did you return to Ohio after you left the
20· · border or after you left the hospital?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how long did you stay back in
23· · Ohio?
24· · · · A.· ·About a month, I think.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where did you stay during that
·2· · time?
·3· · · · A.· ·A few different hotels.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then did you return to Alaska?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And, again, can you tell us how you
·7· · traveled to Alaska that time?
·8· · · · A.· ·The second time we had taken three
·9· · vehicles to Washington State; Seattle, I think.
10· · And from there we had put one of the vehicles on
11· · the ferry shipment to be shipped to Alaska by sea
12· · while my mother, father, nephew, and daughter flew
13· · from Seattle to Anchorage, Alaska, while my brother
14· · and I took two vehicles with trailers back again
15· · through Canada.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know why they opted to
17· · fly with your children instead of drive?
18· · · · A.· ·Because we didn't want to put the children
19· · through another possible scenario as they went
20· · through in Montana.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At the border?· You mean being
22· · stopped and such?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said you and your brother
YVer1f
·1· · drove a vehicle?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Separate vehicles with trailers attached?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Containing your belongings?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·While you were on your way back up to
·8· · Alaska, did you learn that BCI was back out at
·9· · Peterson Road only this time with heavy equipment,
10· · backhoes, et cetera?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And did you have conversations with your
13· · mother and father and brother about that fact?
14· · · · A.· ·I believe there may have been a few
15· · comments or so, but conversations, no.
16· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall any comments about
17· · asking which barn they were digging behind?
18· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that question again?
19· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall any comments about which
20· · barn they were digging behind?
21· · · · A.· ·I do think I did ask my neighbor which
22· · barn they was digging in, but not behind.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall why you asked
24· · that question?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I do not.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Once you got to Alaska, do you
·3· · recall there being a press release regarding you?
·4· · · · A.· ·I remember a press release.· I do not
·5· · remember if it was once we got into Alaska or if it
·6· · was before.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you do remember a press
·8· · release?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember the nature of that press
11· · release?
12· · · · A.· ·In general format, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what do you recall that being?
14· · · · A.· ·I remember the main release of being each
15· · of our passport or driver's license photos with a
16· · big wanted logo above them with fine print
17· · underneath, or fineish print, revealing that they
18· · wanted specific information about each of us in
19· · certain categories.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall what those
21· · categories were?
22· · · · A.· ·I remember two of them, but I don't
23· · remember what all of them was.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what are the two that you
YVer1f
·1· · remember?
·2· · · · A.· ·I remember one was anything to do with
·3· · buying or selling vehicles to or from my family and
·4· · I, or firearms.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you --
·6· · · · · · ·Well, let me just ask you this.· Did you
·7· · know anybody that lived in Alaska prior to you
·8· · going up to Alaska in June of '17?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And who did you know that lived there?
11· · · · A.· ·I knew several from -- several members of
12· · the Cinereski family, a few of the Barrow family,
13· · and a few odds and ends that I cannot -- friends
14· · I've met and knew before 2006 visit from Alaska. I
15· · cannot remember last names.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell me who the
17· · Cinereskis?
18· · · · A.· ·They are a Christian family that own --
19· · operate a -- pastor, rather.· Pastor a church in
20· · Seward, Alaska; Kenai, Alaska; and previously in
21· · Minford, Ohio.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said they lived in Kenai?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And where did you guys move to in Alaska
YVer1f
·1· · when you went there?

·2· · · · A.· ·The Kenai-Soldotna area.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And was that your intent when you went
·4· · back there in June of '17 was to move and live
·5· · there in Alaska?
·6· · · · A.· ·Not specifically Kenai, but yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·In Alaska, though?
·8· · · · A.· ·In that area, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, were they
10· · aware -- or do you know if they became aware of
11· · this press release?
12· · · · A.· ·They did.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you have discussions with
14· · them about that?
15· · · · A.· ·I think I did have a brief conversation
16· · with one of them, but I can't remember the
17· · contents.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And which one do you remember
19· · having conversation with?
20· · · · A.· ·Caleb.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At any time when you were talking
22· · with Caleb -- well, I guess, tell me who he is in
23· · reference to that family.
24· · · · A.· ·He is the youngest son of Pastor Kelly
YVer1f
·1· · Cinereski.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Is he also a pastor?
·3· · · · A.· ·He is.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At any time when you were living in
·5· · Alaska, did you admit to him that you had
·6· · participated in killing these eight people?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Once you had moved there, did you start
·9· · going to the church that they are a part of?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall what that church was?
12· · · · A.· ·You mean the name of it?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
14· · · · A.· ·I believe it was called Immanuel Baptist
15· · Church.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And would you say -- well, first of
17· · all, where were you living then?· Where did you end
18· · up with a house?
19· · · · A.· ·On the outside of Kenai.· North side.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you buy that home or were
21· · you renting it?
22· · · · A.· ·Renting it.
23· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us whose name that house
24· · was in?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·My brother's.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that you did attend
·3· · the church that the Cinereskis were pastors at,
·4· · right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How often would you say you went to
·7· · church while you were living in Alaska?
·8· · · · A.· ·Most every Sunday.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, did anyone
10· · else in your family go to church while you were
11· · living in Alaska?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And who amongst your family went?
14· · · · A.· ·All six of us had gone periodically.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Who would you say attended church
16· · the most?
17· · · · A.· ·I did.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
19· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· I'm sorry.· I didn't get
20· · that.
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· We were talking at the same
22· · time so the court reporter didn't hear you.
24· · · · Q.· ·I said, who amongst your family went to
YVer1f
·1· · church the most, and your response?

·2· · · · A.· ·I did.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you went to church, would
·4· · you take your daughter or anybody else with you?
·5· · · · A.· ·Every time I went, I took Sophia.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How many times would you say your
·7· · father went to church while you were in Alaska?
·8· · · · A.· ·I'd say at least a half dozen.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how many times
10· · you would say your brother George went to church
11· · while you were in Alaska?
12· · · · A.· ·Probably just a handful less than I did.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what about your mother?
14· · · · A.· ·Probably the same.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, were you
16· · present when the church -- when the pastor
17· · addressed the church regarding you as a family and
18· · this press release?
19· · · · A.· ·I don't recall that, no.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall some discussion that
21· · that was going to happen or that they were going to
22· · do that?
23· · · · A.· ·That sounds familiar, but I'm not sure.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you work while you were in
YVer1f
·1· · Alaska?
·2· · · · A.· ·I did.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Tell us where you worked.
·4· · · · A.· ·I worked at three different
·5· · establishments.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Tell us about each of those in the
·7· · order that you worked.
·8· · · · A.· ·I first worked at a garage called
·9· · Billy's -- no.· Buddy's Garage.
10· · · · Q.· ·Buddy's Garage?
11· · · · A.· ·In Soldotna.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · A.· ·From there, I worked at a place called
14· · Kenai Marine and Diesel also in Soldotna.· And from
15· · there, I went across the street to -- it was either
16· · R&L or L&R Construction also in Soldotna.
17· · · · Q.· ·Did you say construction?
18· · · · A.· ·Construction.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do when you worked
20· · at Buddy's Garage?
21· · · · A.· ·I was a mechanic.
22· · · · Q.· ·And how long did you work there?
23· · · · A.· ·From late May 2017, I think, until about
24· · September.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you stop working there?
·2· · · · A.· ·I went to Kenai Diesel -- Marine and
·3· · Diesel -- for a pay raise.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you worked at Buddy's
·5· · Garage, did anyone in your family work with you?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Who?
·8· · · · A.· ·My brother.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did he work the same time period
10· · that you worked, that May through September?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you left and went to Kenai
13· · Marine and Diesel -- is that right?· That's what it
14· · was called?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Did your brother also work there?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·At the same time?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.· We both went from one garage to
20· · another.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how long did you work at Kenai
22· · Marine and Diesel?
23· · · · A.· ·I think until late that January -- the
24· · following January.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· January of '18?

·2· · · · A.· ·I believe it was.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you stop working there?
·4· · · · A.· ·I was laid off.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do while you were
·6· · working for Kenai Marine and Diesel?
·7· · · · A.· ·Also, I was a mechanic.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did your brother do there?
·9· · · · A.· ·As well, a mechanic.
10· · · · Q.· ·And is that the same for Buddy's Garage?
11· · He was also a mechanic there?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did he get laid off as well at
14· · Kenai?
15· · · · A.· ·He did.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said you then went to
17· · L & R Construction.· Was that immediately or was
18· · there some time in between that?
19· · · · A.· ·There may have been a week or so between
20· · it.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do at
22· · L & R Construction?
23· · · · A.· ·I was their main mechanic.
24· · · · Q.· ·You said their main mechanic?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did your brother work with you
·3· · there?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did -- do you know if he worked
·6· · anyplace else?
·7· · · · A.· ·What's that?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Did he work anyplace else after Kenai
·9· · Marine and Diesel?
10· · · · A.· ·Not in Alaska, no.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did your father work while you were
12· · in Alaska?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And where did he work?
15· · · · A.· ·I do not remember the establishment's
16· · name, but he worked for a scrapping business.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, while you were in
18· · Alaska, did you or anyone else in your family steal
19· · gas or anything else?
20· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · Q.· ·How long did your dad work at that
22· · scrapping business?
23· · · · A.· ·I believe he was laid off sometime around
24· · Christmas, I think.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did your mother work while you were
·2· · in Alaska?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·While you were in Alaska, did you meet a
·5· · girl at church?
·6· · · · A.· ·I did.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And who was that girl?
·8· · · · A.· ·Can't remember her last name.· Oh, that's
·9· · retard -- shameful.· Elizabeth Freeman.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you meet her?
11· · · · A.· ·I believe I -- well, obviously she was
12· · present.· What's the right word?· She went to the
13· · church.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
15· · · · A.· ·In which I visually seen her at church. I
16· · think I -- I think I initially reached out to her
17· · on Facebook.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And after you reached out to her on
19· · Facebook, what happened?
20· · · · A.· ·We had started communicating for a small
21· · period of time, I think.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you start dating her?
23· · · · A.· ·After the small period of time
24· · communicating, I did ask her out, yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where would you communicate

·2· · when you would communicate with her?
·3· · · · A.· ·At that point?
·4· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Before you started dating.
·5· · · · A.· ·Facebook.
·6· · · · Q.· ·On Facebook.· Okay.
·7· · · · · · ·Okay.· And can you tell us what kinds of
·8· · things you would do together?
·9· · · · A.· ·On dates?
10· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
11· · · · A.· ·Mostly dinner, and usually find a place
12· · just to park and talk, but I did take her on a --
13· · probably a 30-or-so mile loop, teaching her how to
14· · drive a stick, and also went on a snowboarding trip
15· · one Saturday.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you ever have Sophia with you
17· · when you would do things with her?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And what kinds of things would you do if
20· · Sophia was with you?
21· · · · A.· ·Dinner.· And I do not recall there being a
22· · movie theater in Kenai or so, but I had -- had
23· · installed a movie player monitor screen, whatever,
24· · in my vehicle on the roof of the ceiling, so we
YVer1f
·1· · would watch a movie in that.· So kind of like a

·2· · movie theatre inside a vehicle, I guess is how you
·3· · could pronounce it, ish.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did Elizabeth and Sophia appear
·5· · to get along?
·6· · · · A.· ·To begin with, they did, yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you ultimately propose to her?
·8· · · · A.· ·I did.
·9· · · · Q.· ·How long after you had started dating did
10· · you propose to her?
11· · · · A.· ·I think somewhere around six to seven
12· · months.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall when and how you
14· · proposed to her?
15· · · · A.· ·This may have been after Christmas, it may
16· · have been before.· Hmm.· I don't know -- I think it
17· · was after Christmas.· Sometime in the fall, after
18· · Christmastime, maybe early spring, whatever.· No.
19· · I think it was still in '17.· No.· I'm not sure on
20· · the when.
21· · · · · · ·But the event, I do remember I had
22· · proposed to her on the beach.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you originally going to
24· · have a long engagement?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Did that change?
·3· · · · A.· ·It did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Why did it change?
·5· · · · A.· ·Because my parents had decided that we was
·6· · going to come back to the lower 48, and I was
·7· · concerned that a long-distance engagement would
·8· · potentially break the relationship off.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you said your family and you had
10· · decided to come back to the lower 48.
11· · · · · · ·Can you tell me how that decision came
12· · about?
13· · · · A.· ·Well, we discussed the situations.· We had
14· · not been able to secure the job opportunities we
15· · originally was supposed to get when we got up
16· · there.· My daughter Sophia and nephew Bulvine did
17· · love the snow, but they -- well, they were raised
18· · -- born and raised as farm children.· They missed
19· · the, well, farm life, which you cannot have in
20· · Alaska.
21· · · · · · ·There was very few large acreage parts of
22· · Alaska's property that was in a reasonable price
23· · range, and so we ultimately decided that we would
24· · move back into the lower 48 but to a location that
YVer1f
·1· · did have snow.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was that something that was
·3· · agreed on by everyone: you, your brother, mother
·4· · and father?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·To leave Alaska?
·7· · · · A.· ·I was reluctant at first, but yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us where the
·9· · family had decided they would go?· You said
10· · someplace in the lower 48 but one that also had
11· · snow?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·So what state did you settle on?
14· · · · A.· ·Missouri.
15· · · · Q.· ·And so because of that your marriage got
16· · pushed up?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was Elizabeth agreeable to
19· · that?
20· · · · A.· ·She was.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You got married?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember when?
24· · · · A.· ·If I'm not mistaken, I think it was
YVer1f
·1· · March 23rd or March 24th, 2018.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And did you guys have a honeymoon at all?
·3· · · · A.· ·A what?
·4· · · · Q.· ·A honeymoon.
·5· · · · A.· ·We had a wedding night.· The honeymoon was
·6· · to be scheduled for a later date.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us where you
·8· · stayed on your wedding night?
·9· · · · A.· ·At one of the hotels in Kenai.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us, before you married
11· · Elizabeth, did you become aware of the fact that
12· · she had been molested by two of her brothers?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Is that something that she shared
15· · with you?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes, it is.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you aware that those
18· · things had not been reported to the authorities?
19· · · · A.· ·I was.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, to your awareness, was that
21· · the only other time she had had any sexual
22· · experiences, was the time when her brothers
23· · molested her?
24· · · · A.· ·She had mentioned that, yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us, after your wedding night,
·2· · how much longer did you stay in Alaska before you
·3· · went to Missouri?
·4· · · · A.· ·I left that next day.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so the very day after you got
·6· · married, you left for Missouri?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · was as far as where you were going to live in
10· · Missouri, what you were going to do in Missouri,
11· · all that?
12· · · · A.· ·For the financial plan, there was two or
13· · maybe three options; I cannot remember the rest of
14· · them.· One of them was the R & L company that I
15· · worked for when I was arrested, the terminal out of
16· · Kansas City was hiring that we was to look into to
17· · find a renting -- property to rent temporarily
18· · while we was waiting on a loan to go through to buy
19· · a small farm.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who was going to work at the
21· · R & L terminal out of Kansas City?
22· · · · A.· ·My brother and I.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was there a plan as far as your
24· · father goes?· Was he going to stay with you in
YVer1f
·1· · Missouri or was he going back to Ohio?

·2· · · · A.· ·To what he had informed me is he was going
·3· · to go back to his mother's place, the Flying W
·4· · Farm, until a later date of some sort.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you said you were going to
·6· · rent until you got a loan and then going to get a
·7· · small farm, was there a particular kind of farm you
·8· · were looking for or particular type of farming you
·9· · intended to do?
10· · · · A.· ·You mean, like, type of farming as in the
11· · -- to use as crop?
12· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Were you interested in livestock or
13· · crops?· I mean, was there a plan --
14· · · · A.· ·Umm --
15· · · · Q.· ·-- for the farm that you were looking for?
16· · · · A.· ·Initially there was not much of a plan on
17· · what to use as a -- money-wise, but my brother and
18· · I both, for future -- for future planning, was both
19· · interested in both livestock and cropping.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so who was going to live on
21· · that farm?
22· · · · A.· ·Ultimately, the whole family.· All six of
23· · us.· Well, at that point seven.
24· · · · Q.· ·So while your dad said he was going to go
YVer1f
·1· · to his mother's for a time, he was intending to

·2· · come back and join you or rejoin you, rather, in
·3· · Missouri?
·4· · · · A.· ·To my understanding, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did -- well, okay.· So you ended
·6· · up -- you said you left the day after.
·7· · · · · · ·How did you travel to Missouri?
·8· · · · A.· ·Again, my mother, father, nephew, and
·9· · daughter flew back to Washington.· Which we had
10· · reshipped one of the vehicles back by ferry.· Well,
11· · they had picked that up and they had drove from
12· · Seattle to Missouri while my brother and I, again,
13· · went back through Canada to the lower 48.· And
14· · Elizabeth -- I had flown her down to one of the
15· · airports somewhere in Missouri, I think.· Close to
16· · Missouri.· Yeah, in Missouri, yes.· Missouri.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us why Elizabeth
18· · flew?
19· · · · A.· ·She was originally supposed to ride
20· · shotgun with me through Canada, but her passport,
21· · even expedited, did not arrive until like two days,
22· · three days, maybe four days or so after I had
23· · already left for Canada.· I think she misfiled it
24· · the first time at some point.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · A.· ·And we had already had the airline tickets
·3· · or so through the first trip for my mom, dad,
·4· · daughter, and nephew.· The next trip down, we just
·5· · figured, okay, I'll set it to where you will -- she
·6· · will arrive roughly the same time or so I would get
·7· · to Missouri and I could just pick her straight up
·8· · from the airport once I arrived in Missouri.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall, did you end up
10· · picking her up from the airport?
11· · · · A.· ·I did not.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Who did?
13· · · · A.· ·I believe my dad did.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Why didn't you?· Why did you not
15· · pick her up?
16· · · · A.· ·Oh, I did not arrive in Missouri on my
17· · estimated time frame due to mechanical
18· · malfunctions.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you able to find a farm in
20· · Missouri or a place to rent?· Did you stay in
21· · Missouri?
22· · · · A.· ·For a couple weeks, yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, while you were
24· · in Missouri, where did you stay?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·At a hotel.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us at the hotel
·3· · what was the -- who was sleeping where?
·4· · · · A.· ·My dad had went ahead and gone back to my
·5· · grandmother's and the rest of us piled in one room
·6· · two beds, two full size or queen size, however they
·7· · were.· That was the cheapest method.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Say that again.
·9· · · · A.· ·It was the cheapest method.
11· · · · · · ·So there were two beds in the room?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said your dad had gone back
14· · to your grandmother's?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Specifically at the Flying W?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And do you know how he got there?
19· · · · A.· ·I remember my brother took him.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then, after your brother had
21· · taken him, did he return to Missouri?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall approximately how long that
24· · took?· Like, how long he was gone for.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Somewhere near 24 hours, give or take.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And so if there were two beds
·3· · in that hotel room, who would sleep with whom?
·4· · · · A.· ·Myself, Sophia, and Elizabeth in one, and
·5· · Bulvine, my mom -- I think my brother slept in the
·6· · same bed on the other side of Bulvine.· There may
·7· · have been a cot; I'm not sure.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us when Elizabeth
·9· · first got to that hotel, did she have a reaction to
10· · the idea of everyone sleeping in the same room, if
11· · you recall?
12· · · · A.· ·Not that I can remember, no.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was there a time when she left the
14· · hotel room that you then had to go find her?
15· · · · A.· ·I vaguely remember one, yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall at all why that
17· · happened?
18· · · · A.· ·If I remember correctly it was something
19· · to do with her brother.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How long were you -- you said for a
21· · couple of weeks you were in Missouri looking for a
22· · place?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you able to -- were you
YVer1f
·1· · looking for both a job and a place or just a place

·2· · initially?
·3· · · · A.· ·Initially both.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you able to secure a job?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· With whom?
·7· · · · A.· ·The Kansas City terminal in -- I mean, the
·8· · Kansas City terminal for R & L.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Were you able to secure a place?
10· · · · A.· ·No.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Tell me about that.· Why were you
12· · not able to find a place?
13· · · · A.· ·We had submitted a loan application at a
14· · bank or two or something and I believe, ultimately,
15· · it was denied.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And whose name were you trying to
17· · put things in then, or who were the loan
18· · applications --
19· · · · A.· ·Myself and my brother's.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall whether on those loan
21· · applications you represented you would be working
22· · for the Flying W at all?
23· · · · A.· ·I did.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the loan did not go through.· So
YVer1f
·1· · what was the decision then?

·2· · · · A.· ·I did not think of it, but I believe my
·3· · brother did.· Maybe my mother thought of the idea
·4· · that we would go back to Ohio and stay in my
·5· · grandfather's house, my mom's side.· And instead of
·6· · taking the job in Kansas City terminal, we would
·7· · just switch the application and take a job at
·8· · Wilmington.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Wilmington, Ohio?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, while you guys
12· · were in Alaska, did your grandfather die?
13· · · · A.· ·He did.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And actually both of your
15· · grandfathers died; correct?
16· · · · A.· ·They did.
17· · · · Q.· ·And did you guys return to Ohio for their
18· · funerals?
19· · · · A.· ·We did not.
20· · · · Q.· ·So when you indicated that your brother or
21· · mother came up with the idea of moving back to Ohio
22· · and living in your grandfather's home, which
23· · grandfather's home are you talking about?
24· · · · A.· ·My mother's father.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And he was deceased at that time?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you in favor of that
·4· · decision?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was it discussed before you guys
·7· · ultimately started back to Ohio?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you have any concerns at
10· · that time of moving back to Ohio?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And what were your concerns?
13· · · · A.· ·Specifically of the media because of
14· · the -- what do you call it?· News broadcasting and
15· · whatnot.· We had decided to try to keep it as
16· · low-key as possible to stay out of the -- I guess
17· · the spotlight you'd call it.· Because my
18· · grandfather's house was in the middle of town and
19· · we didn't want such as, like, reporters or
20· · whatever -- what's the word?· I guess -- not that
21· · word.· Invading our privacy.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall on your way back
23· · to Ohio how you traveled?
24· · · · A.· ·We drove.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how many vehicles?

·2· · · · A.· ·Three.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who was driving which vehicles?
·4· · · · A.· ·Each their own.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You drove your own, George drove his own,
·6· · and your mom drove her own?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And where did Elizabeth ride?
·9· · · · A.· ·She rode with me.
10· · · · Q.· ·And where did Sophia and Bulvine ride?
11· · · · A.· ·Sophia rode with me and Bulvine switched
12· · in and out with my mother and my brother.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you were in Alaska, did you
14· · have any contact with BCI?
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that you were trying
17· · to keep things low-key when you returned to Ohio.
18· · · · · · ·Did you -- well, what is the address of
19· · where you ended up living?
20· · · · A.· ·Where?
21· · · · Q.· ·In -- when you returned from Missouri or
22· · when you -- yeah.· When you returned to Ohio from
23· · Missouri.
24· · · · A.· ·52 Havener Lane, South Webster.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, is that the
·2· · address you used on your driver's license?
·3· · · · A.· ·I don't think it was initially.
·4· · Eventually it became, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Initially what address did you use?
·6· · · · A.· ·I used my uncle and grandmother's property
·7· · in Oak Hill.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you also have Elizabeth use
·9· · that same address, the Oak Hill address?
10· · · · A.· ·I don't remember if she got a license or
11· · -- license switched over when we returned.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you were at 52 Havener Lane,
13· · who lived in that home?
14· · · · A.· ·Myself, my brother, my mother, my
15· · daughter, my nephew, and for a short period of time
16· · Elizabeth.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, in that home
18· · how many bedrooms were there?
19· · · · A.· ·Three.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us who stayed in
21· · which bedroom?
22· · · · A.· ·In my bedroom, my daughter and wife at the
23· · time.· My brother took the smallest one, not much
24· · bigger, take one bed.· And then the third one -- I
YVer1f
·1· · guess really the second, my mother slept in that

·2· · one, which was my nephew Bulvine's bed.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, in that home,
·4· · if you walked down the hallway towards the
·5· · bedrooms, where were those bedrooms situated?
·6· · · · A.· ·Mine was on the left.· My brother's was
·7· · the first on the right, and the end on the right
·8· · would be my mother's and Bulvine's.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you -- you said you were
10· · transferring the application from R & L to
11· · Wilmington, Ohio.
12· · · · · · ·Did you, in fact, start working for R & L?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And who worked with you?
15· · · · A.· ·My brother.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you describe what you were
17· · doing for R & L?
18· · · · A.· ·Transportation across country as a team
19· · driver.
20· · · · Q.· ·And what does that mean, as a team driver?
21· · · · A.· ·Truck driving job to where one drives
22· · while one sleeps, and the opposite sleeps while the
23· · opposite drives.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how many days a week would you
YVer1f
·1· · drive and then how many days would you be home?
·2· · · · A.· ·We had normally 5 days of driving with a
·3· · guaranteed 48 hours at home.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall when you started
·5· · that job?
·6· · · · A.· ·I believe it was May of 2018.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, by way of reference, you said
·8· · you were married March 23rd or 24th of 2018, and
·9· · then the day after you went to Missouri for a
10· · couple of weeks; correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Correct.
12· · · · Q.· ·Which would have put you into April.· And
13· · then you went to Ohio.· So does that sound right?
14· · Around May is when you would have started at R & L?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.· It was in May.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so there was a period of time
17· · when you lived at Havener Lane where you would have
18· · been home because you weren't working; correct?
19· · · · A.· ·Small period of time, yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· A few weeks, anyhow?
21· · · · A.· ·Something like that, yeah.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, Elizabeth was
23· · living with you at that time, right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And when you had married her, were there
·2· · ever discussions about, for instance, even on the
·3· · farm in Missouri, you and she and your daughter
·4· · having a separate home even if it was on the same
·5· · property?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us, was there a time
·8· · where your mother and brother got upset because you
·9· · had told Sophia that she could call Beth Ann or
10· · Elizabeth Mom?
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll overrule the --
13· · I'll overrule the objection.
14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Did you say overrule?
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You may answer.
16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Could you repeat your
17· · question?
19· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
20· · · · · · ·Was there a time that your brother and
21· · mother got upset because you had told Sophia that
22· · she could refer to Beth Ann as her mom?
23· · · · A.· ·The way you're asking that question, the
24· · answer is no.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you want to explain?

·2· · · · A.· ·I can.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·They did get upset, but they did not get
·5· · upset because I told Sophia she could refer to Beth
·6· · as mother.· They had said that I should not make
·7· · her call Beth Ann her mother.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically as it relates to
·9· · Bulvine, did they express concerns?
10· · · · A.· ·Did they express concerns about?
11· · · · Q.· ·That if Sophia was referring to --
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The basis of it is?
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's a leading question.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll sustain.
16· · · · · · ·I don't think you had the question quite
17· · asked, but just make sure it's not a leading
18· · question.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.
21· · · · Q.· ·Specifically as it relates to Bulvine, did
22· · they express concerns?
24· · Concerns about what?
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Come again.

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That's what --
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Concerns about what?
·4· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That's what I tried to say
·5· · just a minute ago.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, ask it again.
·8· · · · Q.· ·In reference to Beth Ann potentially -- or
·9· · Sophia potentially calling Beth Ann Mom, did your
10· · brother and mother discuss concerns about how that
11· · affected Bulvine?
12· · · · A.· ·No.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How did Bulvine view your mother?
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm going to sustain --
16· · I'll sustain the objection.
18· · · · Q.· ·Did he consider her a grandmother figure
19· · or a mother figure?
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll sustain the objection. I
22· · think it's got a -- he can state what he observed,
23· · but I don't know he can state how someone else felt
24· · about something.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Based on your observations, what was the
·4· · relationship between Bulvine and your mother?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Your Honor.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll going to overrule the
·7· · objection; let him answer.
·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Umm.
10· · · · Q.· ·What did you say?
11· · · · A.· ·I said, "Umm."
12· · · · Q.· ·Oh, I'm sorry.
13· · · · A.· ·It my observations, Bulvine looked to my
14· · mother as a mother figure.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· During this time that you started
16· · working at R & L, did BCI become active in your
17· · lives again?
18· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure I understand the question.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you become aware of BCI
20· · conducting investigation -- more investigative
21· · activities regarding you and your family?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Regarding Elizabeth, was there a
24· · time where you obtained some of her personal
YVer1f
·1· · information from her, her social security number,

·2· · her password?
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection as to leading,
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What is it?
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection as to leading.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule the
·8· · objection and let you ask the question.· Complete
·9· · your question.
11· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Was there a time when Elizabeth was
12· · staying with you that you obtained her personal
13· · information?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what items did you obtain?
16· · · · A.· ·Her and I had shared practically all -- at
17· · least all knowing, forms of -- what do you call
18· · those things?· Passwords for various sites,
19· · driver's license, phone numbers, social security,
20· · passport, all of those stuff.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was there also a time when you
22· · synced your phones?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Did you also express an opinion to
YVer1f
·1· · Beth Ann as to whether or not she should have

·2· · contact with her family?
·3· · · · A.· ·How you worded the question, the answer is
·4· · yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you also make a request of
·6· · her regarding whether she should let her family
·7· · know where she was living with you?
·8· · · · A.· ·I think I have to answer that, but could
·9· · you repeat the question so I can make sure?
10· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Did you ever tell her to not let her
11· · family know where you were living together?
12· · · · A.· ·Hmm.· Could you -- well, the way you asked
13· · that question, I'm going to go with a no.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you make any other requests of
15· · her regarding her family?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was that request?
18· · · · A.· ·I had told her that I did not want the
19· · family members of her family who had sexually
20· · abused her to know where we lived.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· While Elizabeth was staying with
22· · you and when your -- you would be on the road with
23· · your brother, where would Sophia sleep?
24· · · · A.· ·With my mother.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, while

·2· · Elizabeth was living with you, did someone accuse
·3· · her of food poisoning?
·4· · · · A.· ·Accuse Beth Ann of food poisoning?
·5· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · A.· ·Not that I'm aware of.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you ever aware of someone
·8· · saying that she stole money?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· While she was living with you, was
11· · there a journal that was discovered by your mother
12· · that Beth Ann -- that Elizabeth wrote?
13· · · · A.· ·Well, how you asked the question, the
14· · answer's yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember the general
16· · gist of that writing?
17· · · · A.· ·Hmm.· In a general format, I could
18· · categorize it, but I could not remember the actual
19· · wordings of it.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I don't expect you to be able to
21· · quote exactly what it said, but what, in general,
22· · did it say?
23· · · · A.· ·I mean, there was several things in the
24· · journal.· Things concerning her childhood, multiple
YVer1f
·1· · things about poetry.· There was several places that

·2· · had -- where she had penned her thoughts about my
·3· · relationship between myself and Sophia and myself
·4· · and my mother.· There was a couple of sections
·5· · where she had basically penned that she was going
·6· · to have to be in a competition of some sort to win
·7· · my attention or something of that sort, and various
·8· · odds and ends about different topics.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So do you recall it being in the
10· · format of she was writing to her grandfather who
11· · was deceased?
12· · · · A.· ·I don't remember that.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall your mother taking a
14· · picture of the writing and sending it to you and
15· · George, texting it to you?
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Overruled.· I'll let him
18· · answer.
19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do remember -- hmm.· Well,
20· · that's -- I remember taking -- my mother taking a
21· · photo of a page of something in one of her -- it
22· · was either a journal or a paper that she had --
23· · actually my grandmother had found.· I remember she
24· · did, in fact, send a copy or a photo through text
YVer1f
·1· · to our lawyer at the time.· I cannot necessarily

·2· · remember if she actually sent it to me.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you became aware of the fact
·5· · that she had taken a picture of it?
·6· · · · A.· ·If it is, in fact, the same one we're
·7· · talking about, then yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, ultimately, did you confront
·9· · her about that?· Did you or anyone else?
10· · · · A.· ·I did, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall what you had her
12· · do with that?
13· · · · A.· ·Do with what?
14· · · · Q.· ·Do with the writings.
15· · · · A.· ·I know that Bruce Baily, our lawyer --
16· · sorry.· Wrong lawyer.· John Clark, our lawyer, had
17· · gotten a digital copy, but I'm --
18· · · · Q.· ·Was the writing kept or destroyed?
19· · · · A.· ·I remember -- I do remember burning
20· · papers, but I can't say for certain that was what I
21· · was burning.· I had done this a couple of times.
22· · Maybe.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you remember burning papers, but
24· · you're not sure it was this particular time?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At some point did your mother tell
·3· · you that Sophia had alleged that Beth Ann had
·4· · touched her?
·5· · · · A.· ·She did.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where were you -- were you
·7· · present when the touching allegedly occurred?
·8· · · · A.· ·No.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What did you do upon -- well, where
10· · were you?
11· · · · A.· ·I was on the road.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What did you do upon hearing this
13· · information from your mother?
14· · · · A.· ·I guess the word would be a sort of
15· · covertly presented a series of questions and I
16· · guess the word prying for information over a period
17· · of a few weeks to Elizabeth without asking her if
18· · it -- if what my daughter had said was true or not.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did her -- did you lay out any
20· · rules of -- as to whether or not or how she
21· · interacted with Sophia in that time period?
22· · · · A.· ·Before I confronted her?
23· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Before you confronted her.
24· · · · A.· ·Not openly, no.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You said not openly.· Was there

·2· · another way that you had some rules about how
·3· · Beth Ann interacted with Sophia?
·4· · · · A.· ·I presented the rules to my mother, but I
·5· · did not tell Beth that's what they were for.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were those rules?
·7· · · · A.· ·I don't necessarily remember all of them,
·8· · but I did set one that she was not to be out of the
·9· · line of sight alone with Beth Ann.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you ultimately confront her?
11· · · · A.· ·I did.
12· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us where you were when
13· · you confronted her?
14· · · · A.· ·In our kitchen.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was anybody else present in the
16· · kitchen with you?
17· · · · A.· ·My mother.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you confront her?
19· · · · A.· ·Well, I basically bluntly and frankly
20· · asked her.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did she say?
22· · · · A.· ·She denied it.
23· · · · Q.· ·Did you believe her?
24· · · · A.· ·I mean, obviously that is a serious and
YVer1f
·1· · touchy accusation.· I cannot say I did believe her

·2· · but I can say I wanted to believe her, but I was
·3· · very concerned on the sensitivity of the situation.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you tell her what would happen
·5· · if you ever found out that she had done such a
·6· · thing to your daughter?
·7· · · · A.· ·Can I answer that question with detail?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · A.· ·I did not tell her what I would do to her
10· · if such a thing I found out happened.· I told her
11· · specifically that if I found anybody in the act of
12· · molesting my daughter what I would do to any
13· · individual, no matter who it was.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you say you would do
15· · if you caught somebody in the act?
16· · · · A.· ·In brief, I would -- I said along the
17· · lines that I would physically beat the person to
18· · death with my own hands.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, after that
20· · conversation, did anything happen with Elizabeth?
21· · · · A.· ·She had called the friend of hers in
22· · Alaska which she was staying with when I met her
23· · and discussed the situation with him.
24· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who that person was or is?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·That was Pastor Dwayne Noel.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you know that she
·3· · called him?
·4· · · · A.· ·She had went out of the house to the back
·5· · yard and made the call while I was talking to
·6· · Sophia, and she had come back over shortly after
·7· · and had asked me -- well, told me that Mr. Noel
·8· · wanted to talk to me.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you talk to Mr. Noel?
10· · · · A.· ·I did.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you tell him?
12· · · · A.· ·I told him the situation.· I told him the
13· · accusation.· I told him what I had said.· And he --
14· · he had told me what Beth Ann's concerns were, what
15· · she had told him.· And we was practically on a
16· · mutual agreement understanding of where each person
17· · was coming from, and he had suggested -- which I
18· · agreed with and was already on that same page that
19· · I should not jump to conclusions but find a way to
20· · see exactly if the accusation had foundation or
21· · grounds or -- I guess, in a sensitive way, he was
22· · basically telling me to make sure that Sophia was
23· · not lying about the situation.
24· · · · · · ·He had advised me that the only way I
·1· · could truly find out was to pray and ask God to
·2· · reveal the answer to that question.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Did he also -- did he then speak to
·4· · Elizabeth?
·5· · · · A.· ·He did, yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· After he talked to you.
·7· · · · · · ·And did you hear anything that he said to
·8· · her?
·9· · · · A.· ·I can't remember if he was on speaker
10· · phone or if she relayed what -- what he had said,
11· · what he had told her.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you take his advice and
13· · pray about it?
14· · · · A.· ·I guess I wasn't clear on that, when I
15· · said we was on the same page, so the answer is yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you feel that you ever came
17· · to a conclusion about whether or not these things
18· · had happened?
19· · · · A.· ·I did.
20· · · · Q.· ·And tell us what that was?
21· · · · A.· ·After I had prayed for two or three weeks
22· · or so -- well, I guess the conclusion I come to is
23· · the only way I could find a way to actually believe
24· · that it did not happen was if, all on her own, if
·1· · Sophia would say that she had said that Beth Ann
·2· · had touched her for a different reason or so
·3· · without prompting, and two or three weeks or so
·4· · later that's exactly what she did.
·5· · · · · · ·She had relayed that she felt that
·6· · Beth Ann was stealing her daddy from her and she
·7· · just wanted her to leave.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, can we approach?
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· As much as I want to push on,
14· · we've been going for two hours.· I don't know if
15· · the Court wants to break, bring them back for
16· · 45 minutes, or if you want to break for the day.
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Break for the day.· I assume
18· · we're switching subjects.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Break for the day.
20· · · · · · ·I'll probably instruct the jury to come in
21· · at 10:00.
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Do you think we'll need an
23· · hour and a half?
24· · · · · · ·I would prefer 9:30, but it's up to the
·1· · Court.
·2· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· We're starting at 8:30.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· If it goes for a while -- I'll
·4· · just tell them 10:00.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Ladies and gentlemen, we're
·9· · going to recess for the day.
10· · · · · · ·A special instruction to the jury about
11· · tomorrow morning.· Come in at 10:00 o'clock rather
12· · than 9:00.· Report to the jury room at 10:00
13· · tomorrow rather than 9:00.
14· · · · · · ·Report to the jury room at 10:00 tomorrow
15· · rather than 9:00.
16· · · · · · ·Now, we're recessing for the day.· You're
17· · going home.· Do not discuss this case among
18· · yourselves or with anyone else.· Do not permit
19· · anyone to discuss this case with you or in your
20· · presence.· Do not form or express an opinion
21· · concerning this case until it's finally submitted
22· · to you for deliberation of verdict.· Do no research
23· · of any kind concerning this case from any source at
24· · all either as to the facts or as to the law.· Do
·1· · not read, view, or listen to any reports or

·2· · accounts of the case from any source at all, and
·3· · that would include, of course, television, radio,
·4· · or newspapers.· It would also include Facebook, any
·5· · social media sites, anything on the Internet.· So
·6· · refrain from any source at all, reading, viewing,
·7· · or listening to any reports or accounts.· And have
·8· · no contact with the participants in the trial,
·9· · parties, counsel, or witnesses.
10· · · · · · ·Now, does counsel for either side have
11· · anything further at this time before we adjourn for
12· · the evening?
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Please leave your notepads on
16· · your seats and wear your badges home and tomorrow,
17· · and assemble at 10:00 o'clock tomorrow at the jury
18· · room.
19· · · · · · ·With that, we are recessed until.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Now, that the jurors are gone,
22· · let me remind everybody we are having a hearing
23· · without the jury present at 8:30 tomorrow morning
24· · concerning the issues of recording, videotaping,
·1· · et cetera, witnesses who -- who object to that

·2· · pursuant to Superintendence Rule 12(C).
·3· · · · · · ·All right.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are in recess.
·6· · · · · · ·You're welcome.
·7· · · · · · ·(Court adjourned.)
·8· · · · · · · · · · · · ·* * * * *
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·8· · 18-CR-155, on Tuesday, October 25, 2022, was
13· · November, 2022.
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17· · · · · · · · · · · ________________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · Jo Ann Betler, RDR
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Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: $15..accusing
$ 2 5
$15 356:23 2 311:12 5 335:3 356:23 403:2

$200 356:11 20 256:2 310:23 52 400:24 401:12
200 293:10
( 6
2006 376:14
(C)(2) 306:19 324:9 2007 361:6 6044 279:19
2012 331:9 351:5 6065 280:12
0 2014 331:15
2016 278:22 283:5,7 8
0197 329:23
06 361:8 2017 358:21 361:3 381:23 8:30 317:6,11 318:4 319:4
2018 279:10 311:23 390:1 324:2
1 403:6,8 8th 325:9,12,14
2018-CR-155 231:8 284:21
10 257:11 335:4 356:23 299:17 316:12 9
100 327:22 356:11 2022 231:1,5 304:11 324:17
325:6,7,14,15 9 304:10 325:7,15
10:00 319:3
2022-CA-917 316:22 911 338:4,8
10:30 283:19
22-CA-917 285:14 9:00 319:4
10:45 283:20 284:13
23rd 390:1 403:8
10th 331:14
A
24 274:11 396:1
11:15 292:14
24th 390:1 403:8 a.m. 236:10 324:2
11th 331:15
25 231:1,5 ability 247:13 303:17 304:24
12 286:9,11,20 287:8 288:22
292:13 306:12 309:18 260 233:17 absolutely 308:22 309:1
12(C) 291:5 307:6,12 308:15, 2nd 300:17 324:17 325:5 313:6
16 310:2,9 312:21 317:1,3 abused 409:20
318:23 320:16 324:8 325:17
3 acceptable 241:14 301:24
326:7
324:6
12(C)(2) 306:14 307:13 30 256:3 310:24
access 300:15 303:16,17,21,
12(C)2 304:16 30-or-so 386:13 24 304:10 307:3
13th 311:23 32 256:18 336:13 accommodate 310:12
15 292:20,24 account 282:24
17 361:16 376:8 377:4 387:19 4
accounts 284:5 298:19 312:2,
18 383:1 3
40 246:2 336:13
18th 300:7 accusation 415:1 416:13,20
48 388:6,10,24 389:10 393:13
1911 246:3 403:3 accuse 354:6 410:2,4
1:00 289:4 291:19 297:12,15 4:30ish 236:10 accused 353:21 355:2,7,14,

298:9,23 299:7 15,21
4x8 277:10
1st 331:9 accusing 355:9,11
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: acetylene..arguably
acetylene 246:9,23 agreement 416:16 Angela 231:13 299:21 300:15
301:6 312:23 324:24
acknowledged 305:6 ahead 249:18 251:3 252:8
294:22 311:14 317:10 330:13 angry 365:10
acreage 388:21
395:4
Ann 404:9,22 405:7 406:8,9
act 415:11,15
ahold 334:18 409:1 410:4,12 413:3 414:3,9
action 246:11
airline 394:2 Ann's 416:14
actions 364:2
airport 394:8,10 anniversary 358:5,14,17
active 407:16
airports 393:15 announced 306:15
activities 362:16 407:21
Alaska 358:20,23 360:12,15, answer's 410:14
actual 243:24 331:12 410:18 18,19 361:3,5,10,15 362:2,7
anxiety 311:17
369:7,8 373:4,7,11,13 374:8
Adams 263:13,22 375:2,5 376:7,8,14,20,24 anybody's 293:21
add 249:7 299:3 377:5,7 378:5 379:7,11 380:7,
11 381:1 384:10,12,18 385:2,4
anyplace 384:6,8
addition 284:23 299:18 316:9 388:20 389:6 391:2 398:12 anytime 344:19 353:10 357:6
additional 313:4 314:22 400:13 415:22
apparently 300:12 317:20
Additionally 313:1 Alaska's 388:22 356:23 371:2
address 250:12 314:15 345:4 alibi 367:8 appeal 289:15

400:18 401:2,5,9 alibis 368:23 appeals 286:8,23 289:9
addressed 380:17 alive 313:20 303:12 304:15
adjourn 289:3 291:18 315:24 alleged 413:3 appellate 305:21
adjudication 303:22 allegedly 413:7 application 316:24 397:13
398:7 402:10
administered 232:22 allowed 293:8
applications 397:18,21
admissible 344:4 Allowing 292:7
applies 309:18
admit 378:5 alongside 336:12 337:5
350:20
apply 309:22
advance 292:18
alter 271:11 appointment 356:8
advice 287:10 288:16 290:7
altered 315:12 appointments 342:3
advised 416:24
alternate 303:12 approach 327:16 345:22
advising 321:21 346:2 353:15 363:2
affected 406:11 alternative 289:18 290:11
297:9 300:6 301:9 303:12
approached 327:18 346:4
affects 308:23 316:23 353:18 363:4
312:9 325:23
afternoon 266:23 298:9 alternatives 304:1 approximate 256:10
307:23 309:13 314:2 317:15,
amendment 311:1 approximately 236:9 255:24
19 318:10 320:22 327:6,7
277:8 331:23 336:14 362:4
332:1 Amish-built 255:12 266:14 395:23
agency 266:3 amplify 313:21 April 264:4,5,22 265:5,6
agent 231:15 359:6,11,14 403:12
Anchorage 373:13
agents 359:3 363:10 area 235:23,24 246:18 256:16
anchors 277:21 279:2
259:19 340:23 356:12 377:2,8
agree 289:12 322:21 367:8 and/or 318:22
areas 246:16,18 247:15
agreeable 389:18 Andrew 231:13 258:1,2,6
arguably 315:11
agreed 311:18 389:3 416:18 259:13 262:22 263:2 299:22
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: argue..behalf
argue 326:12 attorneys 231:10,13 300:21 Baily 412:15
302:18 316:14,16
arguing 303:4 balance 301:19
audience 321:14
argument 303:5 312:9 332:7 bale 238:21
333:24 351:14 audio 305:9 313:20 320:23
bank 397:14
325:1
arguments 319:1
Baptist 378:14
August 271:2 361:6
arise 298:5
barn 236:13,14 237:7,15
authorities 270:14 271:5
arms 334:17 238:13 240:6,19 241:5,19
357:20 369:4 372:2 390:18
243:2,3,23 244:1 245:5,6,8,10,
arrange 314:4
authority 306:15 325:16 14,16,17,18 247:8,16 251:1,
arrangement 262:7 326:2,5 12,24 252:18 253:21 271:21
335:7 374:17,20,22
arrangements 343:5 avoid 296:3
barrel 236:18 246:12,15
arrest 279:14 avoided 269:24
248:24
arrested 279:3,9 391:15 awake 252:24 253:2,4,7 260:9
Barrow 376:12
arrive 393:21 394:6,16 aware 237:5 300:5 324:7,8
based 307:11,12 328:3 371:14
341:18,21 342:2,11,21 343:1
arrived 233:16 340:18 370:4 407:3
344:7 345:3,13,16 346:16
394:8
348:1 353:10 354:10 355:1,20 basically 277:21 286:21
ascended 306:8 357:16,19 366:8 367:12 363:13 364:19 365:1 411:5
377:10 390:11,17 407:19 414:19 416:22
ash 249:2,11,12 410:6,7 412:4
basing 343:8
ashes 255:1 awareness 390:20
basis 257:18 261:11 286:19,
assault 338:22,23,24 339:2 20 303:20 346:21 352:9
assemble 284:13 298:23 B 362:19 366:16 368:8 405:13
asserted 363:9,21 BCI 270:22 271:3 358:6,14,23

back 231:19 233:16,20 236:7, 359:1 360:6 362:1,8 363:10
assume 308:9 314:4,6 338:9 9,12 237:15 240:2,6 243:13, 369:3 370:1,3 374:8 400:14
20,21 248:13 253:23 254:19, 407:16,19
assuming 259:22 292:1
21 255:7 256:7,13,18 257:13
assumption 370:23 371:1,2, 259:20 263:17 265:18 272:3 BCI&I 231:15
14 279:18 286:3 288:4 291:19 beach 387:22
294:23 295:24 300:17 307:20
astonishingly 306:6 beams 241:22
316:8 320:18 328:8 335:9,12
attached 273:12 277:23,24 358:4 361:10 365:11 369:6 bear 269:21
374:3 372:22 373:14 374:7,8 377:4
388:6,10,24 392:1,3 393:2,9, beat 415:17
attachment 278:4 10,13 395:4,13 398:4,21
bed 238:18 350:9 396:6
attempt 310:18 399:7,10,22 416:4,6
401:24 402:2
attempted 246:7 backed 277:16 330:20 bedroom 333:9,10,15 349:3,
attempts 335:15 backhoes 374:10 4,5,7,21,23 350:8,21,24
401:21,22
attend 379:2 backside 244:1
bedrooms 348:15,21 349:2
attended 379:15 bag 237:2,7 240:16,17,19 401:18 402:5
241:23 247:15 248:23 252:6
attention 246:15 411:7 253:17,18,19 254:14,16 beds 395:6,11 396:2
attorney 231:12 232:14 bailiff 284:24 295:10,13,17 began 232:23
266:18,19 283:1 285:20 299:19 302:17,21 303:7
300:11,19 304:8 316:15 begin 232:9 358:6 387:6
314:17 316:10,20 319:16,20
324:19 341:19 342:12 323:15 327:12,15 329:4 behalf 287:14 290:4 300:20
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: behaviors..Canepa
303:8 305:4 306:13 311:12 boxers 237:22 252:23 Bulvine 253:8 333:22 334:2,7,
14,17 341:14 342:19 344:20
behaviors 271:11 boxy 356:21
348:2 350:6,8,12,13 351:24
believed 351:8 363:17 break 283:17 285:13 289:5 357:24 372:1 388:16 396:5,6
322:7,17 388:8 400:10,11 405:9,21 406:11,13
believing 303:21 407:4,13
Brentley's 263:5
belongings 374:5 Bulvine's 334:12 402:2,8
Brewster 287:14,21
bench 306:8 327:18 346:4 bunch 296:20
353:18 363:4 briefing 305:17
buried 240:12,13 248:21
benefit 303:23 bring 294:9 295:24 297:16 271:21
benefits 297:8 bringing 327:9 burn 236:18,19 238:11 239:10
bet 286:22 broadcast 260:4,6 312:18 244:12 248:20,24
Beth 404:9,22 405:5,7 406:8,9 broadcasting 319:12 324:21 burned 244:16 248:24 249:9
409:1 410:4,12 413:3 414:3,5, 399:14 254:24
9 416:14
broke 281:1 burning 255:5 412:19,21,23
bicycle 337:1,2
brother 233:15 239:6 242:6,8, bury 237:7 240:18,21 254:17
big 277:8 375:16 11 245:19 254:2,6,7,8 255:5
burying 248:22 255:4
259:13 260:7 268:2,12 269:15
bigger 401:24
273:22 275:18 277:17 313:9 business 315:15 384:16,22
Billy's 381:9 331:6 334:6,13 335:12 336:8,
buy 378:20 391:18
21 337:9 340:4 343:15 351:15
binding 291:7 352:22 369:16 370:9 373:13, buying 376:3
birthday 275:24 276:3 24 374:13 380:10 382:8,16
331:17,18 383:8 384:2 389:3 391:22
C
392:17 393:12 395:19,20
bit 331:2 334:11 365:15 396:5,19 398:3,20 400:12
bits 261:7,8 401:14,23 402:15 404:8,20 Caleb 377:20,22
406:10 409:23 call 244:1 255:11 257:24
black 280:5 286:12
brother's 260:14 334:17 258:11 259:2,11,17 265:9
blame 321:9 349:4 379:1 397:19 402:6 287:17 289:2 291:20 314:22
319:7 320:7 332:13 337:10,15,
blend 259:6,7,8 brothers 390:12,22 17 338:2,4,5,11,14 340:5,6
blended 259:4 brought 232:2 245:6 293:23 356:19,20 399:14,17 404:9
298:24 326:20 327:14 405:7 408:17 416:5
blood 234:1,6,10
Bruce 266:21 412:15 called 235:15 256:19 257:10
blue 330:10,23
262:22 263:5 285:20 289:18
bluntly 414:19 buckets 272:5,19 273:1,2 337:12 338:8 356:5 362:13
274:4,8,22 277:12,20 280:17, 378:14 381:8,13 382:14
boom 286:24 23 415:21 416:3
border 370:14 371:20 372:2, Buddy's 381:9,10,20 382:4 calling 258:19 406:9
14,20 373:21 383:10
calls 257:5,15
born 388:18 bugged 370:24 371:10,15
camera 310:21 312:13 325:3
bothered 286:10 build 272:16 273:15,18 281:13
Canada 369:9 373:15 393:13,
bottling 270:8 building 255:12,19 256:5 20,23
bottom 350:24 266:14 274:8
Canadian 278:16
bought 255:19 356:22 built 241:21 273:14 280:3
candid 363:13
box 309:22 314:14 320:18 bull 242:18
Canepa 231:13,22 232:4,18
233:5,10 234:16 235:13,15,20
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: cannon..comfortable
241:8,11,18 244:5,9 249:18,21 cell 244:18 256:17,23 359:18, Cinereski 376:12 378:1
250:17,20 251:3,7,21 254:5,10 20 360:2,6
Cinereskis 376:17 379:3
257:23 261:18 279:19,22
center 330:10
280:11,13 281:20 283:15 circumstances 302:4 356:1
285:3 287:17,20 288:6,20 cetera 291:10 301:2 314:23 357:8
289:14 290:11,21 291:1 292:5 344:11 374:10
293:6 294:1 295:2 296:2
citation 305:16
297:2,18 299:5,22 303:1
chain 273:3
cited 305:21,23 306:1
304:17 312:22 315:2,8,21 chainsaw 256:7,8 260:1
316:4,16 319:21 320:11 321:3, citing 304:2
13,17 322:12 328:3,19 329:9, chair 231:17,19 232:12
city 250:9 391:16,21 397:7,8
13,14,22 330:1,2 339:24 challenge 303:9 398:6
341:21 342:1,17,24 343:10,13,
24 344:5,6 345:11 346:10,16, chambers 284:16,23 287:21 claiming 322:22
24 347:3,10,21 348:7 352:18, 299:11,15 316:6,9
clarification 289:10 317:24
19 353:8,9,15,23 354:3,9,22, chance 289:6 290:2 295:21
24 355:13,23 362:23 363:2,7, clarify 308:17,19
305:12
20,24 364:4,14,15 365:4 Clark 412:16
366:10,19,24 367:2 368:13,21 change 285:22 318:2 388:2,4
371:8 379:21,23 404:18 Claytor 331:3
changed 247:19 286:3
405:19,20 406:2,4,7,17 407:1, clear 307:8 311:5 315:18
2,9 408:10 412:3 characterization 235:9,12,13
326:1 327:1,22,24 343:8
cannon 269:9 charge 337:16 338:3
client 302:11 322:13
car 262:24 341:5 356:9 371:16 Charlie 282:19
client's 309:8
care 264:14 267:6 292:9,12 cheapest 395:7,9
clients 356:8
314:17 check 263:19 309:22
close 231:16 232:10 252:13
carry 356:21 Chelsea 263:5 269:7 271:2 306:3 315:15
carrying 281:11 352:1 360:14 393:15
Chevy 237:3
Carson 258:1,2,6 262:22 closest 252:14 276:21 277:5
chicken 273:6
cartoons 260:13 closet 239:19
child 282:15,18 357:17
cartridge 246:13 closing 306:5,24 307:2
childhood 410:24
310:10,19
case 231:6,8 232:10,13 children 253:4,5,7 260:8
267:16 283:22,23 284:1,2,5,7, closure 297:10,18 304:1
263:6,8,19 264:10,23 272:13
21 285:21 290:6 298:12,14,16, 373:17,18 388:18 clothes 237:9 239:11,12
17,19,21 299:17,24 300:2,16, 240:3 247:19
21 301:7,20 304:2 305:16,21, choice 309:23 314:10,11
22 306:20 308:3,7 313:13 clothing 236:16 237:19,21
choices 307:21
316:12,19,23 324:17 354:2 239:8,15,24 240:2,5 244:11,17
Chris 233:22 261:1 268:21 249:1
cases 310:12 269:7
coconspirator 366:19
casings 244:18 281:13 Chris's 234:24
codefendant 300:1
casually 321:7 Christian 376:18
coffee 356:17
categories 375:19,21 Christmas 384:24 387:15,17
cognizant 311:18
categorize 410:18 Christmastime 387:18
colloquy 327:22
caught 415:15 church 376:19 378:9,11,15
color 280:1,4,6
caused 334:13 379:3,7,10,15 380:1,3,7,10,16,
17 385:5,13,15 Columbus 266:1
ceiling 386:24
Cincinnati 324:20 comfortable 291:21
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: comment..court
comment 307:16 322:16,21 confer 285:23 257:7 261:23 262:2 268:18
340:1 271:22 278:23 291:14 292:15
confront 412:8 414:10,18
315:1 317:7 328:18,19 344:8,
commentary 324:13
confronted 413:22,23 414:13 14,17 351:5 398:15 403:10,11,
comments 374:15,16,19 18
confronting 300:13
commit 247:2 correctly 264:22 396:18
consideration 298:5
committed 269:11 cot 396:7
considered 286:9
committing 257:1 counsel 231:14 284:8,9,16
constructed 245:17 273:16, 285:1 287:4,10,12 294:23
common 261:2 19 274:21
297:20,23 298:21 299:2,11,20,
communicate 386:1,2 constructing 245:18 23 302:3 308:3,6,10 310:16
311:5,19 313:12 317:12 320:2
communicating 385:20,24 construction 251:11 273:21 321:21 323:19 327:7,18 328:6
381:16,17,18 383:17,22 346:4 347:16 353:18 354:15
company 391:14
contact 265:20 266:17 284:6 363:4 364:9
competition 411:6
289:9 291:15 298:20 311:8,10 counsel's 300:5
complaint 300:5 301:9 314:2 316:20 358:6,16,23
310:17 325:23 337:16 338:3 359:2,10 400:14 409:2 country 402:18
340:12 341:10 county 250:9 263:13,22 304:4
contacted 266:18 358:10,13
complete 320:20 408:8 306:21
contents 377:17
completely 270:2 couple 233:19 245:19 329:15
continue 247:13 278:19 279:6 359:9 360:16 394:22 396:21
complied 306:17 292:7 301:14 311:13 318:10, 403:10 411:4 412:21
15 326:16
comply 296:7 court 231:4,9,23 232:1,6,19,
continued 233:9 344:13 21 233:3 234:13 235:10,17
complying 320:15
continues 320:22 241:12 257:18,21 261:11,13
compromise 312:12 281:17 283:18 284:12,18,19,
continuing 304:11 23 285:10,18 286:8,16,23
computer 285:19
continuous 232:21 287:3,22 288:24 289:8,9,16
conceal 334:9 290:6,9,15,20,22 291:3,4,5,6,
contrary 346:20 24 292:16,23 293:14,22 294:5,
concern 294:15 313:12 371:9
372:13 control 293:8 13,15,19 295:7,20 296:5
297:11,13,15,20,23 298:3,8
concerned 270:18 271:5 controlling 306:14 299:1,6,13,14,18 300:13,18
301:6 340:6 365:18,20,23 301:3 302:10,14,16 303:5,11,
convened 284:22
388:7 415:3 12,14,16,19 304:2,5,15,19
conversation 258:22 261:5 305:21,24 306:1,15,16 307:7
concerns 270:11 271:8,11
263:11 264:6 336:18,22 308:23 309:2,6,9,12,19,21,24
308:12 313:2 399:9,12 405:9,
355:15 377:15,19 415:20 310:2,3,5,7 311:7,15,18
10,22,24 406:3,10 416:14
conversations 271:14,15 312:10,15 313:5,24 314:18
concluded 233:13 315:7,22 316:1,8,20 317:18
358:12 374:12,15
conclusions 416:19 318:5,9,11,17,24 319:2,13,18
coop 273:6 320:1,4,7,11,20,24 321:11,23
concrete 272:4,19,24 273:11 322:16 323:4,9,13,16,19,21
cops 337:10
274:3,8,9,11,22 277:12 280:17 324:7,18,22 325:6,15,16,22
281:24 282:2 copy 411:24 412:17 326:1 327:4,17,19 328:2,5,8,
20,22 329:2,4,7,10,12 341:13,
concur 318:15 Corey 258:3
22 342:8,15,21 343:7,11,17,22
conducted 231:18 265:24 corner 273:12 276:21 337:2 344:2 345:7,21,23 346:3,5,8,
13,20,22 347:2,5,15,19 348:5
conducting 232:14 362:8 corners 277:23,24
352:9,12,15 353:4,13,17,19,21
407:20
correct 243:23 244:23 247:16, 354:1,6,12,18,23 355:4,18
20 248:4 252:15,19 255:1,22 362:19 363:1,5 364:2,5,12,24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: Court's..dig
366:6,16,21 367:1 368:8,11,18 decision 235:4 236:5 269:4
371:5 379:22 404:12,15 D 308:16 328:3 388:11 398:1
405:13,15 406:1,6,15,21 407:6 399:4
408:5,7 411:17 dad 237:11 247:19 269:6 defendant 231:9 285:4 290:5
Court's 284:16 287:21 299:11 274:19,24 275:2,13 277:17 297:22 299:17
306:3 307:11 311:6 316:6 345:17 350:3,7,11 367:15
384:21 392:24 394:3,13 395:4, defendant's 316:14
317:1,8 318:22 320:2 326:2,6,
7 328:3,16 13 defense 231:23 232:19 285:1,
dad's 274:19,20 8 299:19 325:8,11 326:21
courtroom 232:5 284:15
328:20 329:10
292:22 293:10,12 294:12 Daily 266:21
295:9 297:19,22 298:2,24 defense's 309:3
299:8 306:3,6 307:1 310:10,19 Dakota 369:20
311:2 316:13 329:6 359:12
defying 323:9
dangers 313:22
Courts 324:9 delay 315:16
dark 239:14 240:7 332:2
cousin's 268:13 demeanor 258:18 259:1
date 237:7 240:14 241:1 248:7
cover 304:11 272:3 276:3 308:1 311:7 316:2 denied 300:18 325:10,12,17
331:16 390:6 392:4 397:15 414:22
covered 238:23
dates 386:9 departure 331:24
covering 319:11,12
dating 385:22 386:4 387:9 Derek 289:23 290:21 291:1
covertly 413:15 293:17 297:3 300:7,9 316:22
daughter 261:23 263:18 319:10
crammed 293:12 275:18 369:17 373:12 380:4
388:16 393:9 394:4 401:15,22 describe 242:15 250:1 259:3
craze 332:21
404:3 413:18 415:6,12 268:21,22 332:14,16,17
create 283:9 402:16
day 231:6,16 232:9,11 233:14
created 309:21 248:9 261:23 262:17 265:20 design 273:17,19
crime 269:11 324:22 266:11,23 274:12 275:5 276:1, destroy 240:9,14 244:22
11,12 290:17 293:19 301:16 247:3 248:20
crop 392:11 311:12 312:16 314:7 324:19
331:17 342:8 347:14 351:16, destroyed 237:1 271:22
cropping 392:19
21 357:1 391:4,5 393:6 403:9 412:18
crops 392:13
daylight 244:14 248:23 destruction 245:9
cross 347:12,13 254:24 detail 321:7 356:2 357:3 415:7
cross-examination 315:20 days 262:10 265:21 269:14 detailably 357:3
354:5 279:15 289:22,23 295:18
393:21,22 402:24 403:1,2 details 356:3
crying 334:7
deadline 293:2 detectors 363:15
Crystal 356:6
deal 323:8 diagram 242:23
curiosity 320:2
Dealer 304:3 die 398:12
current 312:13 315:5
dealing 292:17 died 266:20 398:15
custody 264:19 267:3,7,10
341:13 342:19 343:5 368:6,15, death 415:18 Diesel 381:14 382:2,3,13,22
16,17 369:1 383:6 384:9
deceased 399:1 411:11
cut 236:22 246:3,5,6 271:22 differently 287:11
decide 301:17
cutting 236:23 245:3,23 difficult 303:13
246:7,20 247:7,14 decided 234:24 235:6 236:1
238:16 240:23 388:5,10,23 dig 237:6,13 240:22,23 241:2,
389:9 399:15 19 254:6,7 272:3
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: digging..establishment's
digging 242:2 254:9 374:17, 348:9 Edward 231:3,16 232:11
20,22 233:6 310:16 318:14 320:18
doors 243:22 244:1 252:18
digital 279:17 412:17 effect 232:24 363:8
doorway 333:12,17 350:22
digress 294:21 effective 288:13 303:15
downstairs 295:11 349:5
dinner 386:11,21 electrical 245:3
dozen 380:8
direct 231:18,20 232:14,16 Elizabeth 385:9 387:4 389:18
dressed 252:22
233:9 329:8 347:3 390:11 393:14,17 396:4,8
Dresser 239:21 400:8 401:8,16 403:22 404:10
directed 325:7 366:7
407:23 408:11 409:21 410:2,
drive 243:10,11,15 373:17
directive 289:11,13 12 413:17 415:20
386:14 403:1
directly 333:14,18 348:9 email 302:16
driver 402:19,20
355:8,15
emailed 285:18
driver's 375:15 401:2 408:19
dirt 243:9
emails 302:17
drives 402:21,23
disassemble 239:2
embargoed 312:19
driveway 235:23
disassembled 238:19,24
emotional 332:21
driving 400:3 402:21 403:2
disciplinary 311:24
emotions 365:9,16
drop 334:19
discovered 410:11
emphasize 310:8
dropped 334:18
discuss 283:22 285:16
employee 299:1
298:12,14 300:4 301:8 366:2 drove 278:9,10 374:1 393:11
371:14 406:10 399:24 400:5,6 emptied 250:9
discussed 283:24 285:8 due 286:7 296:12 394:17 empties 250:13
302:12 351:17 371:1,5,9
duffel 237:2 empty 273:1
388:13 399:6 415:23
duffle 237:7 240:16,17,19 encourage 337:21 340:4
discussion 235:4 236:5
241:23 247:15 248:22 252:6
343:20 368:5,15,23 380:20 end 243:22 286:15 311:7
253:17,18,19 254:14,16
378:17 394:9 402:7
discussions 365:21 367:3
dug 237:6 241:22 242:1
377:13 404:2 endangering 303:22
247:15 252:6 253:16,22 254:2
dismiss 294:10 271:20 ended 233:14 331:10 393:5
400:19
dismissed 294:4 duly 233:7
ends 376:13 411:8
dispose 272:5,6 dumpster 249:13,14,15,22
250:11 255:1 enforced 292:24
disruptive 288:8 293:7
duration 322:1 enforcing 292:8 310:9
distant 312:16
DVR 244:19 engagement 387:24 388:7
District 285:13 286:8 292:1
Dwayne 416:1 Enquirer 324:20
District's 286:16
entered 253:11 260:3 284:16
divorce 331:12 341:16,17
E
342:9 entry 285:13,16 289:23
306:10 325:15 369:18,21
document 267:8 ear 322:23
equipment 374:9
documents 305:14 368:15,16 early 251:11 262:17 268:10,12
294:4 351:15 387:18 erase 270:1
dollars 283:13
earth 293:11 essentially 325:18
domestic 338:3
educate 355:6 establishment's 384:15
door 243:20,21,24 252:13,16
334:8,9,12,20 339:17 340:3
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: establishments..fineish
establishments 381:5 342:7 father-in-law 268:24
estimated 394:17 extra 310:11 fault 294:3
evening 332:1 356:10 eye 310:21 favor 399:3
event 322:14 360:10 387:21 feed 238:9,10,12 255:6
F
events 331:24 feel 308:17,23 315:9 318:21
365:6
Eventually 238:24 401:4 face 313:19 355:9,21
feels 301:4 304:9 318:12
ex-sister-in-law 331:5 Facebook 385:17,19 386:5,6
fees 283:1
exact 324:10 facing 313:22
feet 234:5
examination 231:18,21 fact 256:4 266:9,19 286:18
232:15,17 233:9 310:10 352:6 374:13 390:11 felt 291:14 406:23
examine 233:4 402:12 411:24 412:4,6 fence 335:7
examined 233:8 facts 284:3 298:17 fencing 252:19
excerpts 231:2 factual 346:20 ferry 373:11 393:10
excluded 292:21 faded 351:19 figure 406:18,19 407:14
excuse 264:4 268:1 failing 326:3 figured 394:5
exercise 344:20 fair 347:11 348:19 349:18 file 267:2 289:14,20,23 325:8
fairness 303:22 308:24 337:16 338:2,19 340:5,7
exercised 305:10
309:14 filed 285:14 289:21 296:18
exercising 307:8
fall 367:16 387:17 300:6,16,19 305:18 324:18
Exhibit 244:7 250:18 251:5,19 325:5,11,13
279:20 280:9,11 329:20,22 false 238:18
filing 290:24
exhibits 288:9 292:11 familiar 372:15 380:23
film 326:13
existence 292:6 family 269:8 270:11 272:13
359:23 365:17 366:2 376:3,12, filmed 301:15 302:5 317:22
exists 303:20 18 377:23 379:10,13,24 323:24 324:12 325:19,20
380:17 382:5 384:18 388:9 327:24 328:11
exit 369:18
389:9 392:22 407:21 409:2,6, filming 307:10,16 323:6,22
exited 234:4,7 284:15 299:8 11,15,19 324:13 326:3
exiting 236:15 farm 278:9 388:18,19 391:19 final 289:17 320:17 344:14
392:4,7,15,21 394:19 404:3
expect 410:20 finally 312:8
expedited 393:21 farming 392:8,10
financial 391:12
farther 323:4
experience 242:11 310:11 find 248:5 259:3 297:7 313:6
experiences 390:22 fashion 301:1 335:9,10,12,23 336:9 362:11
fast 267:4 386:11 391:17 394:19 396:14
explain 246:20 364:2 405:1 397:12 416:19
explanation 242:7 323:1 father 233:16 234:22 237:3
238:4,20 260:7 261:14 268:1, finding 365:24
exponentially 313:21 2,23 269:16 270:5 271:9 272:2 findings 286:18 291:5 297:7
274:20 280:18 281:22 282:21 304:21
express 264:13 284:1 298:15
341:6 362:13 363:23 369:16
405:9,10,22 408:24 finds 303:19
370:9 373:12 374:13 380:7
expressed 264:18 384:11 389:4 391:24 393:8 fine 264:24 294:17 310:2
398:24 323:2 334:16 338:13 375:16
extended 322:7
Father's 275:24 fineish 375:17
extent 304:13 305:19 340:18
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: finger..grandfather's
finger 321:9 354:14,19 gate 249:16 250:4 252:19
finish 237:1 337:23 format 375:12 410:17 411:10 gathering 255:6
finished 248:22 255:8 274:2 forms 408:17 gave 359:19 372:3
fire 249:6,8 293:12 forward 290:10 311:16 314:13 Geauga 304:3 306:21
318:16
firearm 246:18 geese 273:4,5,7,14 274:8,13
found 246:8 255:19 411:23 277:8 278:11,16 279:2,6,10
firearms 236:21,24 240:10
415:5,10,11 280:3 330:8
273:2 280:24 281:10 376:4
foundation 352:16 366:22 general 262:7 265:7 303:9
firing 246:11,15
416:20 366:9,11 375:12 410:15,17,21
firma 304:14
four-wheeler 258:8 generally 262:8
fish 272:12 278:19
Fourth 285:13 286:7,16 gentlemen 232:7 283:20
fished 278:18 291:24 298:3
fisted 333:2 frame 270:16 334:13 354:8 George 231:7 235:6,21 238:4
368:19 394:17 284:20 299:16 316:11 321:23
five-gallon 272:5 273:1 332:7,10 333:5,7 334:4 335:4,
Frankie 268:12
flame 246:23 19 336:2 338:21,23,24 340:12
frankly 286:4 312:4 414:19 341:18 343:3 344:13 345:17
flew 373:12 393:9,18 346:7 351:4,22 357:11 380:10
Frazier 284:24 400:5 411:15
flip 312:13,14
Freeman 385:9 George's 333:11 348:9
float 279:6
Friday 262:14 301:11,20,22 350:14,16,24
floating 273:4,5 279:11 280:7 307:23,24 309:14 314:9 315:3
get along 387:5
floats 273:7 friend 415:21 gift 278:6
floor 234:2 236:16 244:17 friends 376:13 Gilley's 282:19
345:23 348:13,15,22
front 246:12 250:4 259:18 girl 385:5,7
flown 393:14 321:12 335:7 344:11,24 345:1
fly 278:11 373:17 346:23 359:18,24 gist 410:16
Flying 329:17 392:3 395:16 frustration 339:16 give 279:17 288:4,18 289:1,6
397:22 290:7 291:19,20 302:24 303:1
fuel 247:13 249:7 322:18 343:19 356:2 396:1
focus 246:14 full 264:8 395:6 giving 275:20 287:10
focused 246:17 247:14 fully 311:2 315:9 Glock 246:2
follow 289:11,12 291:11 funerals 267:15,18 268:4 Gloves 238:2
food 351:9 352:1,4 410:3,4 398:18
God's 293:11
forced 334:6 337:20 future 295:6 392:18
Gofundme 282:24
forcibly 334:3
G good 231:4 232:6,7 233:11
forcing 334:11 283:16
forensicable 246:19 games 367:16 Googling 360:19
forged 267:8 garage 381:8,9,10,20 382:5, grandfather 255:18 274:17,
19 383:10 18 275:21 276:8 278:6 398:12
forget 296:19
Gary 267:20 268:6,10,15 411:10
forgot 314:20 331:18
gas 246:23 337:3,6 338:16 grandfather's 398:5,22,23
forgotten 256:6 259:24 399:18
341:2 384:19
form 284:1 298:15 309:21
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: grandfathers..homicide
grandfathers 398:15 Hanna 262:4 265:4,8 266:19 hearsay 261:12 344:4
268:11 269:2 282:20 333:5,22
grandmother 272:9 356:5 heartstring 312:6
341:3 349:9,11,13,17 351:23
362:12 363:22 406:18 411:23
356:22 369:2 heavier 242:8
grandmother's 272:7 395:5,
Hanna's 368:6 heavy 374:9
14 401:6
happen 256:12 257:12 294:9, heels 322:15
granted 311:22
18 295:5 306:7 347:9 380:21
held 303:19 305:18 311:23
grateful 305:12 415:4,20
312:3
gravamen 310:17 happened 240:5,22 256:15
257:20 258:13 263:6 264:9
helicopter 260:24
great 356:2 267:13 269:16 295:21 319:23 helped 242:5
green 249:15 293:11 322:24 331:12 332:1 333:19
335:1 337:8 338:15 346:17 helping 239:2,5
Greg 287:14 356:14 370:17 371:13,17 Hess 306:7,11
Greiner 290:17,20,23 296:15, 385:19 396:17 415:10
hidden 356:12
18 300:10 319:14 324:4,19 happening 237:3 333:8
326:10,11 357:13 364:1 high-profile 310:11 313:13
Greiner's 314:6 happy 365:12 high-temperature 246:23
grinder 236:21,22 245:1,22 harden 274:12 highchair 334:2,4
246:6
harm 297:8 322:12 highchairs 333:23
grounds 416:21
harmed 303:21 highest 306:15
guaranteed 403:3
hat 238:2 highly 288:8 293:6
guard 321:5
Havener 400:24 401:12 highway 336:12
Guardian 324:22 403:17 Hill 401:7,9
guess 242:23 244:1,13 255:15 head 235:23 332:20 334:12
271:13 276:6 278:2 285:16
hired 245:20
287:2 288:24 290:4 293:1 hear 287:11 288:16 289:2 hiring 391:16
303:11 316:24 327:5 331:13 291:19 318:23 339:5 343:23
356:20 365:23 377:22 387:2 364:22,23 379:22 history 357:16
399:16,20 402:1 413:14,16 hit 332:11,12
heard 258:12 323:1 339:22
416:21
343:19 hmm 335:2 387:16 409:12
guilt 269:23 hearing 284:18 288:11,15,21 410:17 411:19
gun 339:18,19 290:12,13,16,18 291:4 294:24 hold 273:12 297:6
295:1 296:10,11,12,15,17
guys 247:23 259:20 261:2 297:6 299:13 300:8,17,18,20, Holdren's 258:3
271:11 274:23 276:14 283:11 23 301:3,4,9,10,11,16,18,20,
336:24 355:2 376:24 390:2 hole 237:6,13 240:21,22,23
22,23 302:1 303:6,7,9,18 241:2,19,22,24 242:2,3 247:16
398:11,17 399:6 304:7,9,18,19,20,22,23 305:1, 252:6 253:16,22 254:2,3,7,9,
18,20 306:2 307:21,23 308:2, 17 271:20
H 3,9,24 310:5 312:16,23,24
314:3,4,5,9,15 315:1 316:2,21 home 235:7 239:11 252:22,23
317:6,9,21 318:1,7,17,19 253:10,11 256:20,24 257:6,7,
half 245:24 246:2 380:8
319:1,7 320:8,13 321:24 10 258:3 259:21 262:1 265:18
hallway 402:4 323:22 324:1 325:6,24 326:9 332:4 344:11 347:4 348:19
327:2,6,8,10,20 328:14 346:6 351:8,16 356:6,10 367:11,18,
handed 285:12 19 378:20 398:22,23 401:13,
347:17 353:20 354:16 358:12
handful 380:12 363:6 364:10 413:12 17 402:3 403:1,3,18 404:4
hands 332:20 333:1 339:18 hearings 320:14 homicide 358:10 360:18

415:18 367:9
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: homicides..jake
homicides 233:20 234:21 251:6,20 279:21 280:10 interacted 413:21 414:3
242:9 247:3 251:15 252:3 329:21
interaction 253:13
257:1 260:18,21 261:15 262:2,
identified 244:6
14 268:7 269:15 270:24 interest 264:14,18 311:13
271:16,17 358:4,6 360:21 ignore 296:3 361:9
366:4 368:22
ignores 292:5 interested 357:22 392:12,19
honest 365:7
image 260:24 313:19 interesting 319:21
honeymoon 390:2,4,5
Immanuel 378:14 interior 251:14
honor 231:22,24 232:4,18
233:5 244:5 283:15 286:7
immediately 240:12 288:14 Internet 313:21
289:2 303:15 335:3 383:17
295:22 299:5 306:9 311:19 interrogating 325:4
315:2 316:4 321:4 327:15 immense 269:23
328:19 329:9,11,13 353:15 interrogation 372:3
354:22 362:18,23 363:3,7 important 315:11
interrupted 347:24
364:14 366:17,20 405:23 in-home 356:15
407:5 408:4 interruption 287:13
incident 351:13
honored 311:6 intersection 336:13 337:3
include 344:3
hope 315:14 interview 270:21
includes 305:15
hoped 268:23 Invading 399:21
including 284:7 298:21
hospital 263:13,14,19,22 investigation 407:20
303:17
264:10,16,24 265:14,17 investigative 407:20
371:22,24 372:6,20 indicating 324:19 325:9
involved 287:6 304:19,22,23
hotel 395:1,2 396:3,9,14 individual 415:13
367:3 368:10,12
hotels 373:3 390:9 individuals 368:24
iphone 285:19
hour 290:8 302:15 310:14 inform 307:13,14 324:10
irrespective 306:19
322:19 information 263:16 264:11,
ish 330:17 387:3
hours 274:11 322:19 396:1 12 322:18 343:9,19 362:14
403:3 363:11,24 365:12 375:18 issue 294:7,12,19 301:17
408:1,13 413:13,16 303:19 305:14 309:15 310:24
house 237:10 239:16 243:18 311:1 314:15 323:5 324:2
252:15,16 256:13 260:3 261:1 informed 305:6 392:2
327:11
263:17 273:4,5,14 274:8,14 initially 273:22,23 288:8
276:7,23 277:8 279:2,6,10 issued 290:2 311:6
340:17 385:16 392:16 397:2,3
280:3 330:8 335:9 344:24 401:3,5 issues 318:21
345:1 348:16 350:24 351:9
356:18 378:18,23 398:5 input 302:3,7 item 246:8 272:15 276:6
399:18 416:4 inside 237:6 251:12,24 273:2 items 236:19 238:7 249:10
human 310:22 321:6 333:9 356:9,17 387:2 254:24 280:19 365:24 408:15
hunting 268:13 installed 386:23 IV 231:7 284:21 299:17 316:11
hysterical 332:19 instance 404:2

J
Insulate 312:1
I intend 314:20,22 318:9,24 Jacob 231:3,17 232:11 299:24
intended 392:9 300:1 301:12 304:6 316:18
I's 268:11
intending 393:1 jail 311:20,22 312:1,2 313:14
idea 256:9 291:18 292:18
331:6 336:14 396:10 398:3,21 intent 377:3 jake 233:6 279:5 287:15 295:1
300:15 301:6 305:5 306:17
identification 244:8 250:19 intention 294:13 317:8 319:2 310:16 311:8,20 312:6,23
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: Jake's..life
313:11,17 317:15 318:2,14 jury 232:2,5,7 284:14,15,18 ladies 232:6 283:20 298:3
320:18 321:19,23 324:24 293:23 294:10,15 295:24
laid 383:4,13 384:23
328:24 348:8 355:1 297:16,24 298:2,4,24 299:8,13
314:14 319:3 321:24 327:9,14, lake 272:6,8,11,23 273:10,11
Jake's 306:13 313:2 318:16
20 329:2,5,6 346:6 347:17 275:1,6,17 276:8,10,11,15,16,
322:23
353:20 354:16 363:6 364:10 18 277:1,15 278:10,12,18
jammer 234:19,20 279:2,6,11,13 329:16,18,19
jury's 294:4 298:5 320:19
January 382:23,24 383:1 Lambert 286:1,3 287:24
juvenile 305:24 306:1,20
291:15
Jason 319:14
land 278:11
Jeep 250:3 K
Lane 400:24 401:12 403:17
job 237:1 361:17 388:14
397:1,4 398:6,7 402:21 403:5 Kansas 391:16,21 397:7,8 large 249:15 277:14 388:21
398:6
John 231:10 299:20 324:4,19 lasted 352:2
412:16 Kelly 377:24
late 311:7 381:23 382:23
join 393:2 Kenai 376:20,22 377:6 378:19
381:14 382:2,12,21 383:6,14 law 284:3 298:17 324:22
journal 325:15 410:11,24 384:8 386:22 390:9 lawyer 320:5 342:4 412:1,15,
411:22
Kenai-soldotna 377:2 16
journalization 289:22
Kenneth 269:5,7,9 lawyers 312:7 325:4
judge 234:12 241:7 254:4
Kenneth's 235:7,22 lay 413:19
257:17 261:12 281:15 284:23
285:6,20 290:4 292:23 294:8 Kentucky 268:14 leading 241:10,11,15 281:15
297:17 299:4,18 302:9 306:7, 405:14,17 408:3,6
11 307:13 309:4 312:17 316:3, killed 260:20 269:5
9,22 320:21 322:5 323:18
learn 263:10 264:21 282:15
killing 378:6 362:8 374:8
324:10 326:24 339:23 341:20
342:14,20 343:6 345:6,20,24 kind 259:4,8 266:3 273:6 learned 281:5
346:7 348:4 352:8 353:2,12 304:17 312:19 334:10 351:15
355:17 362:17 364:22 366:5, 356:8 362:15 365:13 366:23 leave 247:22 301:12 313:15
15 368:7,9 371:4 404:11 372:15 387:1 392:7 340:23 389:6
405:12 406:14 411:16 kinds 386:7,19 leaving 334:1,20
judge's 284:22 299:15,19 kitchen 253:12 332:5 333:14, led 331:24
301:7 316:9 18,22 334:1,8,9,10 348:10 left 237:16 238:20,24 239:22
judgment 285:13 289:23 350:22 414:14,16 243:7,14,16 247:2,19 248:10,
judicata 301:5 knew 309:20 363:14 376:11, 16 265:16 287:21 288:11
14 322:20 331:12,13,21 332:3
juice 372:5 334:23 349:1 356:9 371:20
knife 281:1,10,11 372:19,20 382:12 391:4,6
July 331:9 351:5
knocked 334:12 393:6,23 396:13 402:6
jump 416:19
knowing 408:17 left-hand 351:1
juncture 311:12
knowledge 264:24 279:1,7,9 letting 321:21
June 376:8 377:4 340:11 352:16 362:21 level 242:15
Junk 231:12 285:2,11 286:6 Kool-aid 372:5
287:5 288:18,22 289:6,21
liberty 311:4
290:19 291:23 292:7 293:5,9, Kylee 263:9 264:14 282:9,11 license 375:15 401:2,10,11
17 295:11,14,19 299:21 306:4 408:19
308:22 316:15 317:17 L life 269:13 312:4 313:15
jurors 283:21 284:13 388:19
L&r 381:16
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: lifted..metal
lifted 238:21 lot 234:1 271:14 married 331:7,8 351:4 389:21
390:10 391:6 403:8 404:1
likelihood 313:22 loud 313:10
marshal 293:12
limit 315:19 love 278:15 388:17
mask 238:2
lines 269:6 334:22 368:3 low-key 399:16 400:17
415:17 material 236:24
lower 388:6,10,24 389:10
linger 311:17 393:13 mats 236:16 244:17
listen 284:4 298:18 Lucasville 255:10 matter 284:20 299:15 300:5
301:5 315:24 316:21 343:20
listened 270:12,14 lunch 289:5 290:8 294:4,10
362:24 363:9,21 415:13
298:10 302:15 310:14 322:7
listening 271:5 312:8 358:11
matters 294:14
lurking 295:11
litigants 310:15
meaning 355:7
lying 416:23
litigation 287:7
means 296:8
live 344:13 360:19 377:4 391:9
M meant 252:21
392:20
mechanic 381:21 383:7,9,11,
lived 258:5 347:4 348:24 made 280:18 293:15 304:10 23,24
376:7,10,22 401:13 403:17 307:8 308:16 310:1 318:6
409:20 327:7 338:10 339:12 340:2,12 mechanical 394:17
lives 407:17 344:7 359:1 365:5 366:8 mechanism 246:12
370:18 371:2 416:5
livestock 255:6 392:12,19 media 287:15 292:8,19
mail 250:4 300:11,14,19,20 303:10,17
living 344:17 378:4,17 379:7,
main 375:14 383:23,24 304:10,21,23 305:7 307:11
11 398:22 400:19 403:23
310:13 312:2,13,24 313:18
409:7,11 410:2,10 majority 344:23 317:2 318:22 322:3 324:5
loan 391:18 392:6 397:13,17, make 241:24 246:23 273:17 326:2,6,7,10 327:11,23 399:13
20,24 286:18 289:3 291:4,21 297:6 meet 385:4,10
located 250:2 303:5 304:20 308:17 309:20
311:4 315:18 318:8 326:1 meeting 285:9 359:15,17
location 237:4,12 330:21 327:1 335:15 338:5,18 339:5 melt 236:23 240:9 246:7,10,24
388:24 358:6,23 405:6,17 409:5,9,14
416:22 members 310:13 376:11
locations 235:1
409:19
Logistically 295:22 makes 291:16 312:4
memorandum 325:13
logo 375:16 making 274:13 287:4 308:18
memorial 258:8
long 255:24 258:22 265:13,15 malfunctions 394:18
memory 270:1 351:20 367:5
288:18 289:5,19 290:8 292:22 mandates 306:2
294:10 298:10 306:8 308:7 mental 353:22
310:1 322:17 361:22 372:22 maneuvered 278:2
mentally 356:6
381:22 382:21 384:21 387:9, Manley 264:5
24 395:23,24 396:20 mention 270:9 304:16 320:12
manner 328:13
long-distance 388:7 mentioned 245:1 256:23
March 390:1 403:8 265:6 269:8 290:16 313:5
longer 257:9 341:4 391:2
Marine 381:14 382:2,13,22 321:8 390:24
looked 268:23 292:13 335:6,7 383:6 384:9 merits 300:4 301:8 318:23
407:13
marked 244:7 250:18 251:5, met 258:7 268:6,9,10,17 359:5
loop 386:13 19 279:21 280:10 329:21 376:14 415:22
loose 269:9 marriage 331:10 389:15 metal 238:10 239:9 246:24
363:15
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: metaphorical..North
metaphorical 242:17 money 282:24 283:12 353:1, mutual 416:16
11 355:2,22 356:16 357:8
method 395:7,9 Myers 286:10 289:23 290:21
410:8
291:2 293:17 295:10 297:4
Meyers 287:14 299:24 300:2
money-wise 392:17 300:7,9 316:22 319:10,18
303:8 305:3,4 306:5 308:4
310:7 311:16 313:10 316:17 monitor 386:23 mysteriously 356:24
317:23,24 318:8,14 319:23
Montana 369:23,24 373:20
320:5,17 321:2,5,18 322:15
N
323:11,18 month 358:9 372:24
microphone's 345:23 months 248:8 360:16 387:12 names 359:10 376:15
middle 288:2,3 315:5,10 Mooney 300:2 305:11 308:5 Nash 231:11 285:1 292:4
399:18 316:17 323:11 299:20 302:12 316:14
mile 310:11 336:17 386:13 morning 231:4 232:6 233:11, natural 278:15
12 241:3 244:12 245:13 255:5,
mind 242:22 250:6 320:21 nature 258:10 281:14 321:6
9 257:16 262:14 283:16
363:8,18 375:10
301:12,20,23 302:2 307:22,23,
mine 256:17 402:6 24 311:8 314:9,10 315:3 nearby 371:22,23
317:6,11 318:1,4,6 324:2
Minford 376:21 necessarily 333:1 334:21
326:9 327:3 328:14 332:1
minute 258:24 406:5 412:1 414:7
mother 253:3,10 255:16
minutes 256:3 257:11 292:20, 256:18 257:5 260:7 262:13 necessity 320:2
24 322:20 335:3,4 263:5,18 267:8,13 268:1 needed 365:12
269:16 270:5 275:18 283:2
misanswered 275:11 333:5,21 339:14 341:6 343:3, negative 282:14 372:12
miserable 312:5 15 356:4,7,12,16 369:16 370:9 neighbor 374:21
373:12 374:13 380:13 385:1
misfiled 393:23 389:3 393:8 398:3,21 400:12 nephew 275:19 334:12 350:5
missed 275:11 388:18 401:14 402:1 404:8,21 405:6,7 369:17 370:10 372:1 373:12
406:10,13,19 407:4,14 409:24 388:16 393:8 394:4 401:15
missing 266:7 356:11 357:1 410:11 411:4,13,20 413:2,13 402:2
Missouri 389:14 391:3,6,10 414:4,17 nervous 365:7
392:1 393:3,7,12,15,16 394:7, mother's 336:4 349:3,20
8,16,20,21,24 395:21 396:21 nest 273:7
392:3 393:1 398:24 402:8
400:21,23 403:9 404:3 news 258:16 260:4,6,16
motion 300:14 302:14 304:9 261:3,15 262:19 296:19
mistaken 271:1 389:24 318:18 319:22 324:18 325:5,6, 399:14
mistook 262:24 10,11,12,14,17
night 233:20 234:21 240:12,
mixed 272:24 motions 320:14 15,16 241:2 243:3,18 244:12
mixes 246:22 mournfulish 259:4,5 247:2,24 248:1 251:15 252:3
262:2 265:9,22 268:7 331:21
mobile 276:9 movants 325:13 339:1 340:16 366:3 390:5,8
modem 244:19 move 282:23 323:2 376:24 391:1
377:4 388:24 Noel 416:1,7,9
modern 312:2
moved 255:22 334:7 378:8 nonclosed 311:2
molested 357:17 390:12,23
movie 368:3,4 386:22,23 nonjury 294:19
molesting 415:12 387:1,2
mom 339:19 345:17 351:21 nonoral 300:17
moving 398:21 399:10
357:11 371:18 394:3 396:5 noon 262:15
400:6 404:10,22 406:9 multiple 356:3 410:24
normal 240:3 293:7
mom's 274:19 356:16 398:5 mumbled 334:15
North 369:20 378:19
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: Note..parents
Note 364:7 obtain 408:15 opts 288:21 325:2
notice 250:3 295:8 296:12,13 obtained 285:6 407:24 408:12 orally 311:6
297:5 303:2 304:24 322:3
occasion 250:13 275:22,23 order 236:20 237:8 239:9
noticed 234:1 288:9 292:3,8,19 293:7 297:4
occur 274:7
298:8 305:7,15 307:11 308:18
notified 309:23 324:3
occurred 260:22 312:8 311:6,18,19 312:11,12,15
notify 290:18 296:17,22,23 344:22 345:13 359:17 413:7 317:2 318:22 323:9 324:23
325:1 326:2,6,7 342:19 346:7,
November 279:10 311:22 occurring 362:16 364:16 14,20 381:7
331:11,14,15
October 231:1,5 300:7 331:8 ordered 293:19
number 231:8 246:17 279:17
odd 312:10 ordering 326:3
284:21 299:17 316:12 408:1
odds 322:23 376:13 411:8 organization 356:5
numbers 408:19
offense 286:22 332:17 orient 330:3
numerous 363:10
offer 321:18 originally 237:16 387:23
O offered 363:21 388:15 393:19
offering 362:23 363:1,9 out-of-focus 310:18

Oak 401:7,9
officer 340:14 outcome 342:18 343:2 344:7
oath 232:22,24 357:15
offices 266:1
object 277:15 286:21 290:8 outlet 319:19
301:2 307:10,18 322:5 323:24 Ohio 231:7,11,15,19 232:12
324:11,15 326:5,15 328:21 284:20 299:16 306:15,16 outlets 296:19 300:11,19,20
316:11 324:8,9 326:7 372:17, 324:5 326:10
objected 302:5 314:23 325:18 19,23 376:21 392:1 398:4,9,
328:10 outweighs 297:8 303:23
17,21 399:7,10,23 400:17,22
objecting 347:6 402:11 403:13 overhead 278:11
objection 234:12 235:8,11, one-year 358:5,14,17 overhear 343:2,14 344:1

18,19 241:7,13,16 254:4 ongoing 333:24 overheard 343:2
257:17 261:10,12 281:15
291:23 317:10 339:23 341:20 open 252:17 297:20 323:19 overrule 281:17 343:18
342:14,20 343:6,12,16,18 333:2,17 334:10 347:15,19 355:18 364:12
344:3 345:6,20,21 347:15,20 404:12,13,14 407:6 408:7
opened 292:23
348:4 352:8,17 353:2,6,7,12 Overruled 234:13 257:21
354:13,19 355:3,17,19 362:17, openly 413:24 414:1 261:13 342:15 345:7 348:5
18,20 364:7,13 366:5,15 367:1 355:4 366:6 411:17
operate 376:19
368:7,20 371:4,6 404:11,13
405:12,23 406:14,16,20,21 operates 250:10 ox 242:18
407:5,7 408:3,6,8 411:16 oxygen 246:9,22
operating 308:15 326:18
objectionable 343:11
opinion 284:1 298:15 408:24
objections 317:12 P
opportunities 361:18 388:14
objects 274:4 286:13
opportunity 314:24 326:12 painted 280:8
observation 347:4
opposite 402:22,23 Pants 237:24 238:1
observations 242:10 407:3,
opted 313:3 373:16 paper 411:22
13
opting 292:2 315:4 327:23 papers 412:20,23
observe 347:7
option 321:1 323:7 paragraph 305:15,22
observed 357:6 406:22
options 361:17 391:13 parents 388:5
observing 333:8
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: park..pockets
park 386:12 paternity 282:10 301:15 302:6 307:15 317:22
324:1,12 325:19,21 328:11
parked 236:13,14 337:7 path 243:1,6,19,21
photographing 296:9 307:9
Parker 231:10,24 232:3,20 patio 259:19
234:12 235:8,11,14 241:7,10 photographs 307:17 323:23
patrol 372:2
254:4 257:17,19 261:10,12 324:14 326:4,14 329:16
281:15 284:11 285:2,6,12 pay 382:3
photos 375:15
290:4 292:14 294:8,17 297:12,
peddling 337:2
14,17 298:1 299:4,20 302:9, physical 310:12
11,19,23 303:3 309:4,7,11,16 Peebles 336:13
310:4 315:18 316:3,14 318:9,
physically 332:10 415:17
24 321:19 322:5,9 323:3 penned 411:2,5
pick 394:7,15
326:24 328:21 329:11 339:23 people 245:20 260:19 289:19
341:20 342:14,20 343:6,16 picked 250:9 292:3 393:11
293:2,4,10 313:18 314:3
345:6,20,22,24 346:7,12,19 316:21 321:13 355:16 358:11 picking 394:10
347:7,13 348:4 352:8,10,13 370:13 378:6
353:2,12 354:8 355:3,17 pickup 255:7
362:17,21 363:22 364:7,22 percent 327:22
picture 242:23 279:24 330:8
365:3 366:5,15,17 368:7,9,12 period 274:7 298:10 382:9 411:14 412:5
371:4 404:11 405:12,14,23 385:21,23 401:15 403:16,19
406:3,14,20 407:5 408:3,6 pictures 292:10,11
413:16,21
411:16 piece 361:18
periodically 379:14
Parker's 322:16,21 pieces 236:22 261:7,8
permit 234:13 281:17 283:23
part 235:3 236:4 237:21 291:8 298:13 300:24 342:21 pile 238:11
241:13,16 292:1,19 296:12 371:7
297:3 301:18 303:13 305:12 piled 395:5
310:1 378:9 permitted 307:19 321:18
324:16 326:5,13 347:5
pin 246:12
partially 237:1 271:22 pink 356:22
permitting 307:9 324:23
participants 284:7 298:20 325:1 pins 246:15
participate 305:1 person 258:2 266:7 285:24 pit 238:11
participated 239:6 254:8 313:7 331:2 415:17,24 416:16
place 239:23 268:13 273:11,
312:24 378:6 personal 362:21 407:24 13 330:8 381:13 386:11 392:3
parties 284:7 298:21 308:1 408:12 394:20 396:22 397:1,9,12
312:17 personally 281:9 placement 325:3
partner 285:24 Peterson 233:17 236:8 places 360:19 411:1
parts 246:4 280:24 281:13 336:16 344:17 345:2,9,14
349:1,6 362:9 365:24 374:9 Plain 304:3
388:21
petitioner's 325:10 plaintiff 231:7 284:20 299:16
party 290:5 294:3,20 298:8 316:11
299:2 309:5,8,9 phone 234:19 259:2,17
265:10 302:22 320:9,10 plan 247:3 391:8,12,23
passport 375:15 393:20 392:13,16
408:20 323:14 338:5,11,14 359:18,20
360:3,6,20 408:19 planned 247:1
password 408:2
phones 233:23 244:19 planning 295:6 392:18
Passwords 408:18 256:17,23 408:22
plant 295:23
past 278:10 334:6,11 photo 250:24 252:5 411:21,24
platform 274:1
pastor 376:19 377:24 378:2 photograph 249:23 303:18
380:16 416:1 330:22 player 386:23
pastors 379:3 photographed 291:10 pockets 244:18
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: poetry..purported
poetry 411:1 prejudice 295:15 318:13 proceeding 306:1 311:3
321:22 322:13 320:13 322:1 328:13 341:13
point 233:15 239:1 240:7,8
344:14
248:5 252:8 256:24 262:21 prejudiced 315:10
264:15 267:12 270:6 271:3,16 proceedings 284:17 297:21
prejudicial 315:17
282:23 285:14 287:19 291:17 299:10,12 303:17 306:2 316:6
302:23 315:13 319:8 335:2 prep 255:11,13 323:20 327:19 328:7 344:8
341:3,4 347:23 358:5 370:7 346:5 347:17 353:19 354:16
386:3 392:23 393:24 413:2
prepare 256:4 266:15 363:5 364:10
pointed 306:9 prepared 274:22 352:4 process 296:13 353:22 354:7
pointer 250:6 preparing 255:22 profit 255:20
pointing 321:9 presence 283:24 285:7 program 368:2
298:15 310:12 311:9
poisoned 351:9 prohibition 300:6 309:5
present 231:9,14 248:14 310:15 312:17 325:23
poisoning 351:10 352:1 251:15 252:2 260:5 261:23
410:3,4 262:4 276:6 281:23 282:1,3,5 prompt 365:21
284:24 285:1 295:13 300:3
police 338:19 340:5,7,9,14,15 pronounce 337:14 387:3
308:3 313:6 316:13 321:19
364:19
327:7 331:21 333:3 338:10 pronouncement 286:17
pond 329:16 342:6 344:19,23 345:5,10,18
proof 322:22 362:24
346:15 352:10,13 359:11,12,
popular 313:7
22,23 367:5 380:16 385:12 proper 304:24
population 313:15 413:7 414:15
property 252:17 272:7 335:24
port 369:18,21 presentation 315:12 345:9 361:18 362:9,16 364:17,
20 365:2 388:22 391:17 401:6
portable 236:21 255:12 presented 413:15 414:4
404:5
position 309:3,17 press 293:15 307:3 311:1
propose 387:7,10
317:3 318:20 375:3,4,7,10
possibility 293:4 377:11 380:18 proposed 387:14,22
possibly 245:24 264:14 pretty 275:15 315:11 365:16 prosecuting 231:12,13
361:18
232:14 316:15,16
prevented 319:11
post 241:24 247:16 253:23
prosecutors 285:2,7 299:21
254:19 preventing 357:23
311:9
potential 297:8 303:23 previous 308:18
provide 295:7 297:5 360:5
potentially 388:8 406:8,9 previously 233:7 376:20
provided 293:14
poured 272:24 price 388:22
prying 413:16
PPP-1 279:19,20 print 302:22,23 375:16,17
public 286:14 297:9 303:16,
PPP-2 280:9,11 prior 242:12 268:6 276:10 21,23
279:7,14 292:20 360:17,18
practically 270:1 334:17 published 288:10
376:7
337:20,21 408:16 416:15
Publishing 304:3
prison 313:7,14,23
practices 286:1
pull 241:1 249:19 278:10
privacy 399:21
precedent 290:14 312:5
pro 297:3
precluding 321:20 pull-off 235:23,24
problem 288:1 305:13 311:24
predicate 303:10 305:5,7 pulled 235:21 237:15 330:18
proceed 285:17 287:11 337:7
prefer 318:15 317:14,18 328:17 329:12
pulling 243:1
preference 308:11,14 proceeded 236:23 237:6,12
purported 306:20
240:9,18 254:17 328:12
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: purpose..remainder
purpose 245:6 247:9,11 ran 240:18 247:12 350:20 recollection 248:12 276:2
285:5 361:16
Randall 291:15 record 244:5 284:10,19 294:6,
purse 356:9,13,16,21 11 299:15 303:18 305:4
Randy 287:24 289:7
308:17,19 310:1,8 311:4
pursuant 305:7 320:13
range 388:23 314:2,19 315:24 316:8 317:24
pushed 389:16 320:12 323:9,17 325:3 326:13
Rarden 255:11 327:1
put 236:17,18 237:2 238:8,9
reach 330:14 recorded 291:10 300:16
239:9 240:2,16,17 241:23
244:11 247:10,15 248:19 reached 385:16,18 301:2,15 302:6 304:7,12
249:13 253:16,21 254:18,20, 305:10 307:15 314:23 317:22
reaction 396:9 320:23 322:2 324:1,12 325:19,
21 255:1,7 272:4,19,22 273:11
274:4 276:15,18 281:5 284:10 read 284:4 298:18 310:14 20 328:11
294:6,11 306:17 310:20
ready 231:20,23 232:1,16,19 recorder 312:14
312:11 315:23 319:9 323:17
328:8 356:23 366:18 373:10, 297:23 317:9 326:19,21,22,23, recording 288:11,14 291:8
18 397:17 403:12 24 329:7,10 296:8 300:24 307:10,17
realize 305:24 353:23 323:23 324:14,23 325:1 326:4
putting 281:7,9,24 282:1
315:3 realizes 313:17 recover 233:23
reanswer 275:8,10 rectangle 277:1
Q
reason 285:22 305:21 313:3 redressed 237:10,11 239:13,
322:9,10,18 17
queen 395:6
reasonable 286:18,19 295:7 refer 329:17 404:22 405:5
question 241:13,17 247:7 297:9 303:20,24 314:11
251:23 252:21 253:24 275:8, reference 306:12 377:23
388:22 403:7 406:8
10 281:2 291:12 293:1 296:10,
14 300:12 301:12,21 314:8 reasons 306:22 referenced 305:16
315:8 317:14 318:11 343:17,
reassurance 322:14 referring 249:14 263:8,9
23 345:8 346:22 347:1,11
353:14 354:14,19,20 360:21 recall 232:10 236:8 246:1 405:11
366:7,17 368:16 371:7 374:18, 253:17,20 257:3,9 259:10 regarded 305:8
24 404:17,23 405:14,16,18 260:16 261:8 265:23 270:23
407:18 408:8,9 409:3,9,13 275:22 281:12 283:11 336:3 regular 240:5 252:13
410:13 415:7 341:7 359:1,14 360:8,14,19,24
rejoin 393:2
363:12 367:24 374:16,19,23
questioned 366:3
375:3,13,20 378:11 380:19,20 rel 304:3
questioning 326:17 329:8 386:21 387:13 394:9 395:23
relate 298:6
396:11,16 397:20 399:22
questions 354:21 413:15 403:4 411:9,13 412:11 relates 405:8,21
quickly 267:2 305:14,23 recalled 233:6 relation 350:16 368:22
quote 286:10 313:14 334:21 receive 257:15 302:14 327:2 relationship 268:11,20 349:8,
410:21
10,17 388:8 407:4 411:3
received 283:12,13 300:8,22
302:16 323:21 324:18 325:22 release 370:11 375:3,4,8,11,
R
346:8 14 377:11 380:18
R&l 381:16 recently 279:14 relevance 353:3
raise 282:24 318:20,21 323:5 recess 283:19,21 284:10,13 reluctant 337:18 389:7
382:3 288:4 298:9,11,12 299:6,9
reluctantly 338:2
316:5
raised 388:17,18 remain 279:2 367:14
recognize 250:21 251:8,10
raising 321:11 279:23 280:2,14,16 remainder 267:21
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: remaining..RR-3
remaining 249:1,11,12 273:2 327:2,6 359:18 409:5,17 return 248:9 262:12 266:13
369:22 370:4 372:17,19 373:4
remember 236:20 240:11 requested 285:8 301:10
395:21 398:17
243:10 245:12,23 255:8 303:6,7,9 308:2 318:7 319:6
259:16 260:23,24 261:7,9,14, returned 232:5 238:17 243:8
requesters 317:5 318:6
19 263:11,12 264:8,22 265:7 260:1 297:20,22 298:2 323:19
266:2 267:5 270:5 275:4 requesting 300:15 301:24 328:6,24 329:6 347:16 354:15
276:7,17 281:7,9 283:3,8 314:3 316:21 317:5 325:10 364:9 369:21 370:7 400:17,21,
331:16 338:12 340:21 341:8 22 401:11
342:3 351:13,14,19 356:3
requests 300:8 409:14
returning 257:1 362:5
357:4,10,14 358:16 359:4,10, res 301:5
17 360:9,10 364:18 365:9 revealing 375:17
367:4,13 371:19 375:4,5,7,10, research 284:2 298:16
14,22,23 376:1,2,15 377:16,18
reverse 243:13
reshipped 393:10
384:15 385:8 387:21 389:23 reviewed 305:14
391:13 395:19 396:12,15,18 residence 233:16,22 234:4
401:10 410:15,18 411:12,19, 235:22 243:7 260:2 334:23 Rhodens 261:16,17 267:21
20,23 412:2,19,23 414:7 336:15
Richard 231:10 299:20
remembered 281:4,16 resolution 341:17
ride 258:8 393:19 400:8,10
remove 234:10 237:21 respect 286:7 295:1
right-hand 277:6 351:1
removed 236:15,16 237:9,18 respond 258:14 290:2 295:21
rights 305:6 309:20 344:20
240:13 241:21 respondent 292:7
road 233:17 236:8 243:9 250:4
rent 391:17 392:6 394:20 response 289:24 305:17 260:22 276:20,22 277:5
renting 378:21,22 391:17 325:9,11 364:23 380:1 336:16 344:17 345:14 349:1
351:16,21 352:14 362:9
repeat 253:6,24 343:21 responses 325:8 363:13 365:24 374:9 409:22 413:11
374:18 404:16 409:9 rest 246:8 301:16 308:10 roadside 277:4
repeatedly 249:1,3 371:7 391:13 395:5
Rob 231:12 299:21
replaces 289:18 restrict 288:14 303:16
Roberts 300:3 305:11 308:5
report 260:19 337:10 338:3,19 restricted 311:21 316:18 321:15 322:8
340:5,7 restricting 307:3 319:8 rock 322:22
reported 266:7 357:20 390:18 restrictions 319:11 rode 264:23 400:9,11
reporter 284:24 299:19 restrictive 312:3
310:22 316:10 379:19,22 rolling 308:20
restricts 317:2
reporters 399:19 roof 241:22 386:24
result 263:15 271:10 372:12 room 260:14 284:14 298:24
reporting 260:17,18,24
results 282:13 320:19 348:9 350:12,14,16
reports 284:5 298:19 395:5,11 396:3,10,14
resume 231:20 232:16 329:7
represent 290:24 296:21,24 rooms 239:24
316:18 323:12 resumed 297:21 299:10 316:6
323:20 328:7 347:17 354:16 rooted 305:24
representatives 293:15 364:10
roughed 238:22
represented 231:11 290:22 retaliation 313:22
296:19 300:11 301:7 319:15, roughly 394:6
18 324:20 326:11 397:21 retard 385:9 Route 256:18 336:13
representing 285:20 retarded 356:7 routes 255:6
represents 324:5 retired 299:11 RR-2 250:17,18
request 294:20 298:7 300:22 retrieved 247:9 256:24 RR-3 251:4,5
305:1 316:2 318:5 323:22
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: RR-4..side
RR-4 251:18,19,22 screen 386:23 set 249:5 253:22 274:9 316:2
324:1 325:6 327:5 357:12
RRR 244:6,7 249:19 sea 373:11
394:5 414:8
rubber 287:1 search 362:8,15 366:8 367:12
setting 290:13
Ruger 263:9 searched 365:2
settle 389:13
rule 286:9,11,20 287:8 288:22 searches 363:11
severe 352:1
291:5 292:6,13,18 304:16
searching 364:19
306:12,13,14,21,23 307:6,12, severely 337:21
13,16 308:15 309:18 310:2,9 seated 293:16 327:13
Seward 376:20
312:21 317:1,3,4 318:23
seats 293:3
320:16 324:8,13 325:16 326:7 sexual 390:21
337:12 Seattle 373:9,13 393:12
sexually 409:19
ruled 288:8 section 305:22
shameful 385:9
rules 292:23 309:18 318:2 sections 411:4
324:8 326:8,18 413:20 414:2,
Shamefully 276:4
4,6 secure 361:17 388:14 397:4,9
shape 277:1
ruling 303:10 304:10 325:17 security 244:19 321:7 408:1,
shapes 363:12
19
Rumpke 249:15 250:10,11,12 share 271:8
sedation 372:8
run 240:24 shared 390:14 408:16
sedative 372:8,9
running 246:9 293:4 sharing 350:9
seeds 295:23
runs 309:14 shell 244:18 281:12
sell 255:20
Ryan 231:14 shenanigans 293:19
selling 376:3
Shepardized 305:23
S send 295:24 411:24
shift 310:18
sending 411:14
safely 311:11 shipment 373:11
Senior 268:21
safety 313:2 shipped 373:11
Senior's 233:22 261:1
sale 255:19 Shirt 237:23
sense 289:3 291:17
sample 372:7 shocked 258:21
sensitive 416:21
Sandra 323:14 shockish 259:4,5
sensitivity 415:3
Sark 286:1 291:13 323:14 shoes 234:5 237:23 244:20
separate 270:6 334:8 374:3
Saturday 262:8 266:24 404:4 short 320:20 401:15
386:15
separately 296:22 shortly 416:6
Saundra 314:2 319:16 separation 311:10,20 shotgun 393:20
scenario 373:19 September 268:13 271:2 show 250:16 251:3 292:19
schedule 308:6 317:8,11 300:17 304:10 320:14 324:17 293:20 295:14 302:21 329:15
325:5,7,9,12,14,15 328:4
scheduled 308:4,7 327:8 showed 276:13 341:3
381:24 382:10
390:6
showing 276:7 292:18
serial 246:17
Scheiderer 231:15 359:11 shut 334:8
365:10 series 413:15
side 232:13 238:22 277:4,5,6
Scioto 324:21 served 337:13
278:9 284:9 297:23 337:7
scrapping 384:16,22 service 327:2 351:1 378:19 396:6 398:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: sides..stay
sides 232:1 277:2 snitched 313:7 spoke 340:17,19
sight 340:24 414:9 snow 388:17 389:1,11 spot 235:2 238:17
signal 234:20 256:16 snowboarding 386:14 spotlight 399:17
signator 319:22 social 408:1,19 spring 387:18
signed 306:11 sold 365:2 Springs 356:6
signs 309:24 Soldotna 381:11,14,16 SS-2 329:22
silencers 281:14 solid 322:22 SSS-2 329:20,24 330:1
silent 367:14 some- 357:10 stairs 350:16,20 351:2
similar 332:21 356:15 somebody's 319:6 322:22 stall 241:21 254:20,21
simply 294:14 322:16 someplace 333:12 389:10 stall's 241:21
simultaneously 288:7 son 377:24 stalls 241:6,20 251:14
Sinclair 324:21 Sophia 253:8 265:21 267:3, stamp 287:1
10,13 268:3 333:22 349:12,13,
singular 255:15 267:20 stamped 306:11
16 370:11 372:5 380:5 386:16,
sit 244:3 20 387:4 388:16 396:4 400:10, stand 306:18 308:20 317:20
11 404:9,21 405:5,11 406:9 319:10 322:20 329:1
sites 408:18 409:23 411:3 413:3,21 414:3
416:6,22
standing 276:20 305:20 333:7
sitting 295:9 307:4
350:22
situate 277:19 sort 269:12 287:1 310:17
332:19 392:4 411:6,7 413:14
stands 287:8
situated 402:5
sorts 370:19 start 282:24 296:8 314:13
situation 264:20 267:5 311:21 319:4 332:19 378:8 385:22
312:4 368:6,17 369:1 415:3,23 sound 323:8 403:13 402:12
416:12,23
sounds 372:15 380:23 started 240:9 256:6 274:1
situations 388:13 source 284:4,6 298:18,20
309:17 358:11 385:20 386:4
387:9 399:7 403:4,14 407:15
size 395:6 South 400:24
state 231:6,11,18,20 232:12,
SKS 246:3 space 293:9 350:10 16 233:3 256:18 284:20 290:6,
slapping 332:20 9 299:16 304:3 313:10 314:19,
speak 232:24 286:2 346:1
21 316:10 317:18 318:12
sleep 350:12,13 396:3 409:23 366:18
325:7,8 326:19 328:17 329:7,
sleeping 395:3 396:10 speaking 279:8 313:11 12 332:19 333:2 336:13 363:8
373:9 389:13 406:22,23
sleeps 402:22 special 231:12,15 293:14
299:21 316:16 state's 232:13 244:7 250:18
sleepy 372:5 251:5,19 279:20 280:9,11
specific 270:15 281:1 312:23 311:19 326:17,22 329:20,22
slept 396:5 402:1 353:5 364:18 368:2 375:18
354:2
slid 277:17 specifically 238:15 245:13 stated 261:15
slide 278:1 246:16 247:22 268:20 271:17
280:21,22 287:18 344:16 statement 339:12,15
smacking 332:23 355:7 358:1 360:20 365:10
statements 344:3 370:18,22
small 337:3 385:20,23 391:19 367:20,22 377:6 395:16
392:7 403:19 399:13 405:8,21 415:11 states 324:10,13 369:6,19
smaller 236:22 speculation 304:14 station 337:4,6 338:16 341:2
smallest 401:23 speculative 353:6 stay 312:20 349:7,13,23
372:22 373:1 391:2,24 394:20,
snitch 313:14,23 spent 286:24
24 398:4 399:16
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: stayed..testify
stayed 349:2 390:8 401:20 416:17 354:3 355:1 356:4,9 357:23
372:13
staying 408:12 409:21 415:22 suggestion 287:4
Tabitha's 357:16
steal 384:18 summons 289:19
table 231:14 328:6 347:16
stealing 352:24 355:2,22 Sunday 379:8
354:15 364:9
357:7
superintendence 286:9
takes 274:11 308:8
Steffan 359:6,14 292:6 306:12,14,22,23,24
309:18 310:9 317:4 324:9 taking 264:14 292:20 307:17
Stefon 359:6
325:17 326:8 323:23 324:14 326:4 398:6
Stefonish 359:6 411:13,20
supervised 346:9,18 347:11
steps 294:22 348:2 talk 264:3 265:4 269:16 270:3,
7 271:4 287:24 289:6 291:13
stick 386:14 supplemental 325:13
305:16 331:1 335:5 340:15
sticks 334:10 supplies 236:24 240:18,24 342:4 363:10 370:16,21
371:12,16 386:12 416:8,9
stole 353:11 410:8 support 241:22 325:14
talked 233:21 234:19 252:14
stomach 352:1 supportive 269:1 258:3,17 262:23 263:24 264:4
stomped 333:24 334:19 suppose 289:3 293:23 318:22 286:1 301:11 321:2 344:10
348:8 358:9 370:1
stop 315:10 337:3 382:1 383:3 supposed 262:12 286:5
303:1 304:18 351:17,18 talking 233:14 263:2 266:21
stopped 269:2 369:24 373:22 269:24 276:23 286:17 313:16
366:13 367:6,17,21 388:15
stored 245:7,10 247:8 393:19 332:15 335:19 337:5 339:13
340:14 343:3,15 370:3 377:21
stories 307:5 supposedly 356:11 379:21 398:23 412:7 416:5
story 319:12 supreme 304:2 306:16 325:16 teaching 386:13
straight 277:2 394:7 suspected 269:10 352:21,24 team 402:18,20
353:11,21 354:7
street 381:15 televised 313:3
suspicion 357:7
strength 242:16 television 312:2
suspicious 352:5
strict 312:20 telling 258:8 261:15 267:5
sustain 235:18,19 241:12,16 291:4,6 304:5,8,15 329:4
strictly 312:12 320:15 343:7,12 344:2 352:16 353:6, 334:4 355:10,11 416:22
strong 242:11,18,20 7,14 354:13,18 367:1 368:20
371:6 405:15 406:15,16,21 tells 257:5 289:19 296:3,5,6
structure 279:24
sweet 320:20 temporarily 391:17
structures 252:2
switch 398:7 ten 279:15 313:19
stuff 281:24 282:1 292:11
408:20 switched 400:11 401:11 tent 330:10,23
subject 301:4 343:20 sworn 233:8 term 235:19 357:12 364:18

365:14 368:23
submitted 397:13 symptoms 351:24
terminal 391:15,21 397:7,8
Subsequent 325:22 synced 408:22 398:6
substantial 286:19,20 303:20 system 313:23 terms 242:17
322:24
terra 304:14
substantially 311:21 T
test 282:10 306:20 372:11
Suburban 336:4
Tabitha 331:3 336:9 337:17 testified 233:8 354:4
suggest 305:13,19 338:18 339:2,17,22 340:1,5,12
342:12 344:19 348:1 349:1 testify 301:14,22 304:6,12
suggested 271:9 272:4 320:22 346:14
351:4,14,18 352:3,20 353:11
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: testifying..ultimately
testifying 232:23 292:2 266:18 268:10 269:22 270:15, tough 313:15
313:18 17 272:17 274:7,9 279:3
town 399:18
281:5,8,23 282:1,4,7 283:16
testimony 231:2 232:22
284:14 285:22 286:23 288:4 toying 365:14
288:3 300:15 301:13 305:10
289:1 290:23 291:19,20
308:13 309:13 311:13 313:20 tractor 244:2
292:23 293:4 296:18,21 299:1
318:10,16 322:2 324:24
305:17 306:10 320:9 324:6 trailers 373:14 374:3
328:12,17
328:14 331:2,24 333:4 336:7,
text 411:24 19 341:2 344:16 345:3,12,16 transcript 231:2
348:1 351:3,7,8 352:24 354:8, transferring 402:10
texting 411:15 10 355:1,20 356:19,24 358:13
359:16,20,23,24 360:14 transport 255:13 273:10
that'll 368:14
361:12,13,14,16,22 365:13 Transportation 402:18
theater 386:22 368:19 369:7 373:2,7,8 374:9
theatre 387:2 377:21 378:4 379:22 380:5 transported 275:1,14
382:9,18 383:18 385:21,23 trap 357:13
theory 319:9 354:2 390:21,22 393:1,24 394:6,17
thing 238:5 241:15 266:2 396:13 399:1,10 401:15,23 travel 369:8 393:7
287:16 290:3 291:16 297:2 403:16,19,23 404:7,20 407:15, traveled 373:7 399:23
327:21 330:11,23 332:21 24 408:11,21 412:1,24 413:21
338:3 356:20,21 357:3 366:23 trial 231:6 232:9 288:2 292:20
times 270:6 344:23 345:13 298:4,6 303:15 309:8,10,17
415:6,10 350:3 356:3,14 380:6,9 412:21
things 233:19 250:24 255:13 trip 268:13 369:15,19 386:14
timing 360:9 394:3,4
289:20 298:4 313:4 361:20
386:8,17,19 390:18 397:17 today 231:5,10 232:24 285:14 trouble 288:7
400:17 408:18 410:23,24 306:11 308:21 310:8 314:5,6
411:1 318:16 320:13 322:2 326:16 trough 238:10,12 239:9
328:17 244:11,16 254:24
third-hand 362:22
told 258:15 263:17 264:23 truck 234:24 237:3,12 239:3
thirds 245:24 266:9 270:8 282:20 291:11,12 243:2 247:20,22,23 248:10,15,
thought 262:24 285:15 319:16 335:4 337:9,11,15,18 19 275:14,15 277:16 335:8
320:17 347:2 398:3 352:22 363:12,18,24 364:16 337:3 338:15 402:21
365:1,11 404:9,21 405:5 true 265:11,12 413:18
thoughts 411:2 409:18 415:10 416:7,12,13,14,
thousand 283:13 15 trump 306:21
threats 339:6 tomorrow 301:17,18,23 302:2 truth 233:1 363:9,21

307:21 314:9 315:15 317:6,11 Tuesday 231:5
three-part 306:20 318:1,4,6,23 319:3 320:3,6
three-thirds 246:3 324:2 326:9 327:3 328:14 turn 235:7 322:17
throwed 339:17 tool 245:3 246:22 Turnaround 235:14
thrown 293:18,21 tools 255:6 turned 243:14
thrust 334:17 top 241:23 254:19 273:3 280:7 TV 324:22 367:11,18,19,22
thumb 337:12 topics 411:8 two-paragraph 306:10
Thursday 307:24 315:17 torch 236:23 246:7,10,21 two-story 348:18

247:7,14
tickets 394:2 type 332:20 365:9 372:8
tossed 238:21,22 392:8,10
time 233:23 236:8,18 237:5
239:10 240:7 242:9 248:2,23 touched 413:4
252:24 253:8,14 254:21 255:7,
U
touching 413:7
8 256:10 259:14 260:8,15
261:6,20 262:7 263:10 265:5 touchy 415:1 ultimately 248:21 271:24
282:10 335:11,14 360:5 387:7
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: Um-hum..witnesses
388:23 392:22 397:14 399:7 video 305:9 313:20 wary 290:13
412:8 414:10
video-recorded 325:2 Washington 284:21 299:16
Um-hum 233:24 316:11 373:9 393:9
videoed 314:23 320:23
Umm 392:14 407:8,11 watch 261:2 263:18 278:11
videotape 326:13
387:1
un- 236:14
view 252:10,11,12 284:4
watched 260:3
unaware 347:10 298:18 406:13
watching 260:5,13,15 262:19
unburnable 236:19 vindicated 311:3
367:11,18,19,22 372:3
uncle 401:6 virus 352:1,7
water 277:18 278:1 280:7
uncommon 247:11 visit 376:14
waves 302:11
underlying 292:8 visitation 262:7 344:20 345:4
WCPO 324:21
underneath 375:17 visitations 346:13
weapons 244:22 245:22
understand 233:1 241:15 visiting 348:2 246:11 247:3 248:20 271:21
288:12 294:8 303:14 311:24
visits 346:8,17 357:23 wearing 238:3
407:18
visually 385:15 Webster 400:24
understandably 313:17
wedding 390:5,8 391:1
understanding 292:21
W
314:18,21 319:13 324:3 week 250:14,15 262:11,17
328:16 343:5 357:21 372:11 267:14 351:15 352:2 361:23
393:4 416:16 Wagner 231:3,7,17,19 232:11, 383:19 402:24
21 233:6 272:10 284:21
unduly 317:2 299:17 300:1,16 301:6 302:1,5 weeks 262:9 394:22 396:21
304:6,11 305:5 306:17 307:22 403:10,20 413:17
United 369:6,19
310:16 311:5 316:11,18 weigh 302:8
unsupervised 357:24 358:1 318:14 320:18 321:23 322:17
324:24 326:17,19 327:12 weights 273:4,12
upset 258:19 365:8 404:8,21
405:4,5 328:8,10,23,24 331:3 362:12 well-check 265:21
upstairs 240:2 349:3,4,21 Wagner's 301:13 308:13 whatnot 244:20 249:1 399:15
311:20
urine 372:7 when's 266:18
Wagners 348:3
usual 327:10 whispered 322:23
wail 334:13
white 250:3 280:8 286:12
V wait 275:8 288:16 311:17
335:19 wife 401:22
vaguely 396:15 waiting 391:18 wild 273:7
valley 276:8 324:22 waiver 285:6 Wilmington 398:8,9 402:11
vehicle 236:17 244:2 250:4 walk 278:8 Wilson 231:14 249:20 251:4,
330:19,20,21 335:13,16 336:3, 18 279:17 285:3 287:9,19
walked 243:17,19 262:21 294:2,21 295:3,22 299:22
6 341:4 369:10,14 370:4,8,17,
402:4 307:2 308:14 309:1 312:20
23 371:10,14 374:1 386:24
387:2 Walking 340:3 316:17 318:4 319:9 320:15
327:16,21 329:24 363:16
vehicles 369:11 373:9,10,14 wall 350:17,18,21 351:1
374:3 376:3 393:10 400:1,3 win 411:6
wallet 356:20
versus 316:22 wishes 296:9 317:18 318:12
wanted 233:19 266:5 271:3 328:17
victims 267:16 268:18 272:16,18 294:17 295:23
307:14,18 324:10,15 302:3 309:22 318:8 359:15 witnesses 284:8 288:12,15
375:16,18 415:2 416:8 292:1 298:22 301:1,19 303:18
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 2· 10/25/2022 ·Index: WLWT..youngest
307:10,13,14,18 314:22 315:4 yard 259:18 344:24 345:1
319:1,5,7 323:6,24 324:11,15 359:18,24 416:5
325:4 326:14
years 306:7 310:23,24 313:19
WLWT 324:21
yes-or-no 368:16
woman 266:1 332:18
yesterday 231:16 232:11,23
woman's 356:20 233:13 258:9 311:7,8
women 332:18 356:21 youngest 377:24
wondering 338:14
word 259:3 321:15 334:3
365:20 367:7 370:2 385:12
399:20,21 413:14,16
worded 409:3
wordings 410:19
words 320:20 363:14
work 272:23 380:24 381:22
382:5,9,16,21 384:2,8,11,14,
21 385:1 391:20
worked 356:4 381:3,4,7,8,13,
19 382:4,10 384:5,16 391:15
402:14
working 335:8 382:1 383:3,6
397:21 402:12 403:18 407:16
world 313:21
worry 311:17 321:6
worrying 358:11
worth 313:1
wrestle 312:10
writ 289:17,18 300:6 301:9
303:13 309:5 310:15 312:17
325:23
write 337:10
writing 307:4 410:16 411:10,
14 412:18
writings 412:14
wrong 337:13 412:16
wrote 410:12
WXIX 324:21
yank 334:2
yanked 334:3

· · · · · · · · · · · ·PIKE COUNTY, OHIO
·2
·3
·5· · · · · · ·PLAINTIFF,
·6· · VS.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·ACTION NO.:

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 18-CR-155
·7
·8
· · · · · · · ·DEFENDANT.
·9
10
11
12
16· · Judge, on Wednesday, the 26th day of October, 2022.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
·3· · · · · ·ROB JUNK, ESQ.

· · · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
·5· · · · · ·(740) 947-4323
·6

·9· · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
10
· · · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
13

· · · · · · ·OHIO BCI&I
15
16

· · · · · · ·988 EAST 185TH STREET
19· · · · · ·CLEVELAND, OHIO· 44119
20
· · · · · · ·PORTSMOUTH, OHIO· 45662

· · · · · · ·person
24
YVer1f
·1· · October 26, 2022.

·5· · · · · · ·This is an action -- or a hearing in an
·6· · action entitled State of Ohio, plaintiff, versus
·7· · George Washington Wagner, defendant, that's Case
·8· · Number 2018-CR-155.· The hearing also involves an
·9· · order of the Fourth District Court of Appeals in
10· · Case Number 22-CA-917 dated -- that order dated
11· · October 25, 2022.
12· · · · · · ·We have present in court today John Parker
13· · and Richard Nash, who are counsel for the
14· · defendant.· The defendant is not present.
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, Judge, if I could
16· · address that.
17· · · · · · ·I discussed this with my client -- our
18· · client -- this morning, and he'll waive his
19· · appearance at this hearing.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Also present is the
21· · prosecuting attorney Rob Junk and special
22· · prosecuting attorneys Angela Canepa and Andrew
23· · Wilson.· Present also is Ryan Scheiderer, special
24· · agent with Ohio BCI&I.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Also present is John Greiner, attorney --

·2· · I believe representing, if I leave anyone out or
·3· · add somebody, Mr. Greiner, let me know, but
·4· · previously you represented the Cincinnati Enquirer,
·5· · Sinclair Broadcasting, WOW-TV, WCPO, WXIX, the
·6· · Scioto Valley Guardian, Court TV and Law & Crime
·7· · TV.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· Correct, Your Honor.
10· · · · · · ·And also present are Mr. Mooney and
11· · Mr. Meyers, who represent a witness in this case,
12· · Edward Jacob Wagner.· And Ms. Roberts may be here
13· · too.· Ms. Roberts is here too.
14· · · · · · ·I just want to give a little brief
15· · background and then we need to get into what we're
16· · -- what the issues are before the Court today.
17· · · · · · ·The Court has been informing each witness
18· · prior to the witness taking the witness stand of
19· · the witness's right to object to being filmed,
20· · videotaped, recorded or photographed based upon my
21· · reading and understanding of the supreme court
22· · Rule 12(C)(2).· If the witness objected -- objects
23· · to any of those things -- being filmed, videotaped,
24· · recorded or photographed -- then the Court has not
YVer1f
·1· · permitted that to be done.· Again, that's pursuant

·2· · to my reading of Superintendence Rule 12(C)(2).
·3· · · · · · ·We did have on September 2nd a motion
·4· · filed -- motion for media access.· Mr. Greiner,
·5· · representing the news outlets that we mentioned,
·6· · filed that motion.· The Court set that for nonoral
·7· · hearing on September 9, giving counsel for the
·8· · State, counsel for the defense, directing them to
·9· · file a response.· Each did file a timely response,
10· · each requesting that the motion be denied.
11· · · · · · ·There was a supplemental memorandum filed
12· · by Mr. Greiner on behalf of those news outlets, and
13· · the Court issued an order denying the motion by
14· · authority of supreme court -- or of Superintendence
15· · Rule 12(C)(2).
16· · · · · · ·Now, the Court received yesterday a
17· · judgment entry in Case Number 22-CA-917 of the
18· · Fourth District Court of Appeals and that contained
19· · language -- I won't read it all, but it contained
20· · this language.
21· · · · · · ·Effective immediately, the trial court may
22· · not restrict public access to the proceedings,
23· · including media access and the ability to
24· · photograph or record witnesses unless a hearing is
YVer1f
·1· · held on the issue and the Court finds that:

·2· · · · · · ·1, there exists a reasonable and
·3· · substantial basis for for believing that public
·4· · access could harm or endanger the fairness of the
·5· · adjudication.
·6· · · · · · ·2, the potential for harm outweighs the
·7· · benefits of public access.
·8· · · · · · ·And, 3, there are no reasonable
·9· · alternatives to closure.
10· · · · · · ·The case cited as authority for that in
11· · the court of appeals judgment entry is State,
12· · ex rel, Plain Dealer Publishing Company vs. Geauga
13· · County Court of Common Pleas, 90 Ohio State 3rd 79.
14· · The Court has read that.· I'm familiar with that
15· · case and have read it.
16· · · · · · ·That case originated out of a juvenile
17· · court closing the courtroom.· It basically changed
18· · the approach to juvenile law by opening juvenile
19· · courts unless a court held a hearing and made those
20· · findings closing the court.
21· · · · · · ·Now, as counsel's aware, we've had
22· · reporters in every day in this case.· We haven't
23· · closed the courtroom.· The Court has been following
24· · my understanding of the supreme court's decision in
YVer1f
·1· · State, ex rel, National Broadcasting Company vs.

·2· · Court of Common Pleas, 1990 case, 52 Ohio State 3rd
·3· · 104, in which the supreme court denied a writ of
·4· · prohibition of -- denied the writ of prohibition
·5· · that was sought against the judge asking that he
·6· · not be -- the judge not be permitted to enforce and
·7· · order that the witness -- that a witness may not be
·8· · photographed if the witness objected thereto.· In
·9· · fact that court, I believe, in the same case
10· · directed a judge to follow at that time the
11· · Superintendence number -- the Rule number was
12· · 11(C)(2).· It's now 12(C)(2).· So the Court's been
13· · following that and my reading, which I thought was
14· · the plain language of the Rule 12(C)(2).
15· · · · · · ·However -- and so we have the order of the
16· · court of appeals.
17· · · · · · ·Now, whether or not this court agrees with
18· · the court of appeals' order, I believe that I'm
19· · bound by the court of appeals' order unless and
20· · until the court of appeals decides the merits of
21· · the petition and -- and decides something else when
22· · it decides the merits of the petition, which it has
23· · not done.· It's issued an alternative writ.· Or a
24· · court of jurisdiction superior to the court of
YVer1f
·1· · appeals issues another type order reversing the

·2· · court of appeals.
·3· · · · · · ·I don't think I -- this Court -- I don't
·4· · want to get in a situation of violating the Rules
·5· · of Superintendence 12(C)(2).· I'm bound to follow
·6· · those, but I don't believe that the court of
·7· · appeals would intentionally order me to violate a
·8· · Rule of Superintendence.· I don't believe they
·9· · would intentionally do that.
10· · · · · · ·So I have to assume that the court of
11· · appeals reads into Superintendence Rule 12(C)(2) a
12· · hearing requirement.
13· · · · · · ·I have not previously seen it in there.
14· · I -- but whether or not I agree with that order,
15· · it's an order of a court of jurisdiction superior
16· · to this court and I feel that I have to follow
17· · that.
18· · · · · · ·Well, I think my attorney -- my attorney
19· · is on the phone and I need to get her on here, I
20· · guess.
21· · · · · · ·Hello.
22· · · · · · ·Maybe not.
23· · · · · · ·MS. SARK:· Yes, Judge, I'm here.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I was introducing this I
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·1· · probably should have had you on here.· I was just

·2· · informing the body here that the court intends to
·3· · follow the order of the court of superior
·4· · jurisdiction, the court of appeals, and have a
·5· · hearing on the issue of whether or not the present
·6· · witness is Jacob -- Edward Jacob Wagner, and the
·7· · court intends to have a hearing on his choice.
·8· · He's objected to being filmed, videotaped, recorded
·9· · or photographed.· We're going to have a hearing on
10· · it.· His attorneys are here.
11· · · · · · ·I'm not -- I'm not sure I can expand that
12· · to consider the applicability of 12(C)(2) to any
13· · other witnesses.· I can't anticipate who those
14· · witnesses will be.· I can't anticipate whether they
15· · will decide that they do not object or do object to
16· · being filmed, videotaped, recorded or photographed.
17· · And even if they did or I would guess what they
18· · were going to do, I feel like the circumstances may
19· · differ with respect to different witnesses.· So I
20· · don't know.· That's something we need to get into
21· · is where do we go from this point forward with
22· · respect to any other witnesses.
23· · · · · · ·But I do intend to have a hearing
24· · concerning the present witness, Edward Jacob
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·1· · Wagner.
·2· · · · · · ·Now, I'm not sure whether that's all --
·3· · there may be other issues.· But, Mr. Greiner, you
·4· · requested a hearing.· I believe you've now
·5· · indicated you represent the petitioner and maybe
·6· · not in that case, but you represent the Scioto
·7· · Valley Guardian or -- is that the name of it --
·8· · Scioto Valley Guardian, Mr. Myers.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· Yes, Your Honor.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And so I'm going to let you
11· · speak and tell me what issues that you would like
12· · heard today in addition to what I have addressed
13· · there.
14· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· The other issue, Your Honor,
15· · is that the prohibition on coming and going during
16· · the proceeding has impacted the ability of the
17· · media to cover particularly when we get into
18· · opt-out situations.· If someone comes in and opts
19· · out, the media here who are present in the room,
20· · can't get down to the room where it's being
21· · streamed and it does kind of impact their ability
22· · to cover.· I understand the need for decorum in the
23· · courtroom, but I think, again, we need to be
24· · thinking about less restrictive means.· And I think
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·1· · there certainly could be a way where, you know,

·2· · perhaps requiring the media to sit in the last row.
·3· · And if it gets out of hand -- but I think that that
·4· · would be the only other issue, I think today on the
·5· · docket.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· I appreciate your
·7· · input.
·8· · · · · · ·Let me say, first of all, too, there has
·9· · been a part of the Court's media order -- I want to
10· · make sure that it's understood the Court in
11· · applying this rule against filming, videotaped,
12· · recording or photographing of witnesses who object
13· · to it, the Court hasn't been applying a local order
14· · of the court.· I have been applying my reading --
15· · and it may be determined to have been not a good
16· · reading, I don't know.· At least the court of
17· · appeals indicates that it maybe disagrees with
18· · that, but my reading of 12(C)(2).
19· · · · · · ·So -- but we do have a local order.· And
20· · one thing that was raised was the fact that
21· · everyone had to be in the courtroom and seated 15
22· · minutes before a hearing started.· I'm informed by
23· · my bailiff that that's never been enforced.· And I,
24· · in fact, at times can see through my cameras here
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·1· · that people have come in moments before the judge

·2· · assumes the bench.· And as long as they're in here
·3· · when we open court, my -- I'm informed that we
·4· · haven't excluded anybody.
·5· · · · · · ·And you've pointed out, the whole purpose
·6· · of this media decorum order is just to prevent
·7· · there from being too much activity in the courtroom
·8· · when we're trying to try a case.· I don't want the
·9· · jury distracted by people coming in and going out,
10· · whether it's media or anyone else.
11· · · · · · ·I did -- I never intended for anybody not
12· · to be able to leave the courtroom.· I think there
13· · was, though, the intention that if they needed to
14· · leave the courtroom to do downstairs, they could go
15· · but then not reenter until we reopen court again.
16· · After we have a recess, then they could come back
17· · in and have a seat in the courtroom.
18· · · · · · ·Now, I don't know if you're requesting
19· · more than that or not.· Leaving the courtroom is
20· · fine.· We have people that have biological needs
21· · and they need to leave the courtroom.· But what we
22· · have tried to do is if they leave the courtroom
23· · during a session of a hearing, that they not
24· · reenter the courtroom until we have recessed -- and
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·1· · usually they're at least 15-minute recesses -- and

·2· · then we open court again.· They can come in during
·3· · the recess and have a seat in the courtroom again.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· Well, I think -- I'm sorry,
·5· · I didn't mean to interrupt.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· That's fine.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· I think I may have
·8· · misspoken, I think that's where we maybe get into
·9· · an issue.· If they've left, they can't get back in,
10· · a witness comes in, opts out, and now they can't
11· · watch it, as I understand it, on the stream and
12· · they're sort of shut out.· So I -- and I don't know
13· · how often that's happened, but I think it has
14· · happened on a couple of occasions.· I don't know --
15· · I'm not sure what the answer is to that to be
16· · honest, but it would be nice to -- I mean, that's a
17· · bit of a problem.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The difficulty in not having
19· · any rule at all is that if -- and I've always
20· · thought this way.· If we allow one to do it, we
21· · have to allow everybody to do it.· And then we've
22· · got just a flow of people in and out, in and out.
23· · We haven't really -- I haven't detected, maybe some
24· · of the members of the media feel they have been
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·1· · improperly dealt with, I don't know.· But I

·2· · haven't -- with one exception, I haven't detected
·3· · any problems with the media.· They've taken -- you
·4· · know, they've been cooperative.· They've been here
·5· · every day some of them in the front row.· A lot of
·6· · them have been here every single day, and I haven't
·7· · seen a problem and haven't had one.· Maybe they
·8· · have had a problem with us, but I haven't heard
·9· · many.
10· · · · · · ·The thing that you mentioned about sitting
11· · in the back row, and if they haven't -- might be
12· · the answer to those who have to go downstairs or
13· · feel that they need to.· Now the reporting media
14· · here, the writing media, sits in the front row.· We
15· · provided them with a front row seat so they could
16· · hear and see everything that's possible to hear and
17· · see.
18· · · · · · ·Sitting in the back row and slipping
19· · out -- now, I don't know if you anticipate somebody
20· · being -- having to go out, come back in, go back
21· · out --
22· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· No, I don't think that. I
23· · don't think we're talking about that.· I think the
24· · problem is if a -- if a witness opts out and
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·1· · somebody has been down watching the stream -- you

·2· · know, of course there's a prohibition of tweeting
·3· · from the courtroom obviously.· So in terms of
·4· · somebody being in the room watching the streaming,
·5· · a witness opts out, you know, they're shut out then
·6· · at that point.· If there could at least be perhaps
·7· · with an opt-out witness just a couple of minutes to
·8· · allow anybody -- I mean, all they've got to do is
·9· · come upstairs.· If there could be a pause for a few
10· · minutes and let, you know, the media who are down
11· · in the streaming room come in, I think that would
12· · solve the problem.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· For press only?
14· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· Yes.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I think that sounds
16· · reasonable.· I think that's reasonable.
17· · · · · · ·Jason, you can talk that over with the
18· · others.· But I think that's reasonable.
19· · Somebody that's -- if they're downstairs and
20· · somebody opts out so the screen gets shut off, then
21· · they can come back.
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, if I may, just
23· · for the record -- it's my understanding when
24· · they're opting out and Jason gets that information
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·1· · in advance of when they come in here, well in

·2· · advance -- well in advance of when George is
·3· · brought down here, well in advance of when the jury
·4· · is brought up here, so there's more like 10 or
·5· · 15 minutes notice to the media and it's not been a
·6· · problem.
·7· · · · · · ·I also am not sure why we're talking about
·8· · this issue.· I wasn't notified that this was going
·9· · to be an issue discussed for today's hearing and
10· · the requirements are that we be notified and served
11· · with that and then a hearing be scheduled.· It's my
12· · understanding we're here solely for the recording
13· · of witnesses, and we've got a jury coming at 10:00.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, be that as it may, I
15· · don't have a problem dealing with that issue.
16· · · · · · ·The whole idea, I think, is having -- is
17· · allowing the press to do their job without
18· · disrupting the proceedings.· Now, as long as we
19· · don't have somebody that, you know, sees the need
20· · to be walking in and out just -- and it is
21· · distractive to come in late and walk completely to
22· · the front.· That's distractive.· And we have had
23· · that a couple of times.
24· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· I understand.
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·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· But if they're going to sit in

·2· · the back, slip in, I don't have a problem with that
·3· · as long as it's media, Jason.
·4· · · · · · ·And, you know -- and you can bring it to
·5· · my attention if it happens.· I might see it, but I
·6· · might not.· My attention is usually over here.· If
·7· · you think it's being abused in some way, bring it
·8· · to my attention and I'll try to deal with it on an
·9· · individual basis.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· So that's that issue.
12· · · · · · ·Now, the idea -- the hearing on the
13· · witness.· I'm going to deal with this -- I'm not
14· · sure.· I will listen to what anybody else has to
15· · argue, but I don't think I can -- that I want to
16· · get into a blanket order involving each -- and I'm
17· · interested in somebody explaining to me how this
18· · should work if we have a witness opt out, so to
19· · speak, to use the term that's been used in some of
20· · the filings.
21· · · · · · ·What kind of a -- what does the hearing
22· · look like?· Who do we notify?· Where do we have the
23· · hearing?· That kind of thing.· That's -- to me, I'm
24· · trying to get -- wrap my mind around how we're
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·1· · going to have a trial and have multiple hearings on

·2· · witnesses who don't wish to be videotaped,
·3· · et cetera.· I don't know -- my experience has not
·4· · included that.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· Nor mine, Your Honor.
·6· · · · · · ·You know, I think that ideally there be
·7· · some notice.· Obviously if a person opts in,
·8· · there's no need for a hearing.· So I think that,
·9· · you know, one would hope that the prosecution --
10· · and I don't know what the defense will be doing in
11· · terms of presentation of evidence -- but that there
12· · be a little bit of notice that a witness who is
13· · scheduled would prefer to opt out.· I think that if
14· · there could be some announcement of that.· And then
15· · I think it would be incumbent on -- if someone from
16· · the public or if someone representing the media
17· · wants to object -- and I don't think in every case
18· · there would be an objection.· I think, for example,
19· · if there's undercover law enforcement or something
20· · like that, I don't see any kind of objection in
21· · that circumstance.
22· · · · · · ·I think, you know, there's great interest
23· · in the trial.· It's obvious from the presence of
24· · the public here.· And there's more -- there's more
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·1· · interest in certain witnesses than in others. I

·2· · think in many cases if they -- a rather relatively
·3· · minor witness chooses to opt out or if again
·4· · someone who is undercover has a need to protect
·5· · identity, I don't see any reasonable person trying
·6· · to object to that.· If there is an objection, you
·7· · know, I think the Court would have to somehow
·8· · accommodate some sort of hearing on that, and --
·9· · you know, given travel concerns, if interested
10· · parties could participate by telephone, I think the
11· · hearing could take place fairly expeditiously.
12· · · · · · ·I understand -- I mean, I have tried
13· · cases, so I understand what these lawyers are going
14· · through.· It's arduous and it's a tough experience
15· · and we're not their chief concern, nor should we
16· · be, but the public access is an important concern
17· · for this court and there has to be some sort of --
18· · some sort of accommodation.· But I think it could
19· · be done relatively expeditiously and I think, you
20· · know, again, if there's some ability to use
21· · telephone, it wouldn't have to necessarily delay
22· · the trial to an inordinate degree.· So I appreciate
23· · the need to move this forward as well.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah, I appreciate your input.
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·1· · · · · · ·But if the witness opts out, as you put

·2· · it, objects to being filmed, photographed,
·3· · videotaped and recorded, the way I'm reading this
·4· · paragraph is I must have a hearing.· I -- I don't
·5· · know who could say we waive our hearing.· I mean, I
·6· · don't know if you could say that for the press
·7· · international or --
·8· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· No, I can't.· I can't, Your
·9· · Honor.· But I suppose that, you know, the
10· · interested press is present.· And I would -- I
11· · would -- I guess I could foresee, you know, the
12· · witness wishing to not be recorded.· You're giving
13· · that witness an opportunity to explain why.· You're
14· · giving opportunity for anybody who feels otherwise
15· · a chance to be heard, and then you make your
16· · decision.· I mean, I think, you know -- again, my
17· · problem is just a two-hour travel time.· But,
18· · again, if there's some ability -- I think I will be
19· · alerted at least on behalf of the interested press,
20· · you know, and I'll -- I'll do my best to be
21· · available.· I've got a colleague who can cover for
22· · me if I'm not available.· So that's how I would see
23· · it going.
24· · · · · · ·And it may -- again, it may not be -- it
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·1· · may not come up that often.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· I do intend to
·3· · have a hearing today on Mr. Wagner, because he's
·4· · indicated he does object.· And I'm going to let his
·5· · attorneys speak for him here in a moment or two, if
·6· · they're willing to do that.· But let's hear maybe
·7· · from the State just generally about what we're
·8· · talking about how -- what are we going to do going
·9· · forward?· One of the problems we've had, of course,
10· · and the State and the defense has mentioned it a
11· · few times is we don't know who the witnesses are
12· · sometimes before the day they're called.· So I
13· · mean, when we don't know, you know, but nobody else
14· · knows.· So that's going to make it difficult to
15· · determine whether a person opts out or opts in
16· · unless we're aware -- I don't know if there's
17· · reason for that or a necessity for it, I guess is
18· · what I'm trying to say, that we not know the
19· · witnesses before the State calls them.
20· · · · · · ·I'm not going to tell you how to try your
21· · case, but you can understand it makes it harder for
22· · us to have any notice to get a hearing, if we don't
23· · know who the person is.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, just in general,
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·1· · I guess, the -- actually the Court needs to seek

·2· · clarification from the district court of appeals
·3· · because there is nothing instructive in that order
·4· · that suggests who should be involved in the
·5· · hearing.· It doesn't even say that the media needs
·6· · to be notified of the hearing or be involved in the
·7· · hearing.· Some of the cases we rely on says that
·8· · the Court after hearing evidence and making certain
·9· · findings -- I mean, you don't need anybody else
10· · present to hear that evidence and make that
11· · finding.
12· · · · · · ·So, you know, again, the idea that, you
13· · know, the media becomes involved in every witness
14· · that either the State or the defense calls,
15· · obviously who we're going to call changes when we
16· · have four-hour delays like this.
17· · · · · · ·So, you know -- but we do have the system
18· · in process where your bailiff asks the witnesses.
19· · Obviously we agree with the Court that the
20· · controlling authority is the Rules of
21· · Superintendence in this matter, and I think the
22· · Court has been applying it appropriately and
23· · there's nowhere that it suggests that you have a
24· · hearing in that situation.
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·1· · · · · · ·I certainly don't object if we have a

·2· · hearing necessarily again as regarding to Jake
·3· · Wagner, although the Court did hear arguments and
·4· · -- written arguments and made a decision on Jake
·5· · Wagner and Angela Wagner specifically back in
·6· · September.· So, you know, I would suggest seeking a
·7· · clarifying order from the district court of appeals
·8· · because there's nothing in there telling us how we
·9· · go forward.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We may get that at some point.
11· · We did have a hearing.· It was nonoral, but we did
12· · have a hearing before on Jacob Wagner and Angela
13· · Wagner, I didn't make the findings.· And the reason
14· · I didn't make the findings was I felt that my best
15· · reading of what I felt was required of me by the
16· · Superintendence Rule 12(C).· But regardless of
17· · whether I feel that way today or not, I'm being
18· · directed by a court of superior jurisdiction to do
19· · this.
20· · · · · · ·I frankly don't want to violate the Rules
21· · of Superintendence, nor do I want to violate an
22· · order of the Fourth District Court of Appeals.
23· · · · · · ·I'm comparing this to a situation where I
24· · have made some kind of an order that somebody do
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·1· · that and I'm reversed by the court of appeals. I

·2· · can't then enforce the order that I make them do
·3· · something, whether I agree with it or not, if I've
·4· · been reversed by the court of appeals.· The court
·5· · of appeals has issued this order -- it may not be
·6· · their final order, but it's in effect right now.
·7· · It says it is.· So I feel like I need to follow it
·8· · until -- until I'm advised otherwise by that court
·9· · or court of superior jurisdiction to that court.
10· · · · · · ·So that would be the Court's position on
11· · that.
12· · · · · · ·On behalf of the defendant, do you wish to
13· · make some kind of an argument concerning the issues
14· · that we've got here?
16· · · · · · ·You know, our concern is the fairness of
17· · the trial to Mr. Wagner.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I understand that.· That's my
19· · main concern too.
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· And we have stated our
21· · position previously in the memorandum you directed
22· · us to file with the various laws and facts.· You
23· · know, this was a process that was agreed to by the
24· · parties.· It was put into writing.· The Court
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·1· · agreed with it and now it's come up again.· It

·2· · seems like the media just wants to record certain
·3· · witnesses and not others.· But they've never been
·4· · denied access to any of the witnesses.· And we
·5· · believe you should continue to follow Rule 12, as
·6· · you outlined, because that's what we agreed to and
·7· · the rule's very clear.· And we think the Court has
·8· · great discretion in how it runs its courtroom, and
·9· · it's been running it fairly so far.· And I think it
10· · would be a real burden on a witness to have to
11· · explain in open court why they object.· I don't
12· · believe their reasons why are -- they could be
13· · relevant, but they may not be relevant.· But they
14· · have that right anyway under the rule.· And to
15· · require a witness, especially a lay witness, to
16· · explain why they don't want to be recorded, I think
17· · is an unnecessary burden that the rule does not
18· · contemplate.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, the next time -- by the
20· · time we have any other witness who may -- who may
21· · object, maybe we can have some clarification from
22· · the court of appeals.· But right now, taking in
23· · everything that I can take in, I have to assume the
24· · court of appeals is familiar with 12(C)(2), and
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·1· · that the court of appeals feels there's a hearing

·2· · requirement in there somewhere, and that's their
·3· · interpretation of it and their interpretation
·4· · trumps my interpretation.· So that's where we are.
·5· · · · · · ·Now, on behalf of -- on behalf of the
·6· · witness who we have before the court now -- he's
·7· · not in the courtroom now of course, but his counsel
·8· · is here.· Do you wish to make an argument as to
·9· · these -- these three factors that -- and you've
10· · seen a copy of the --
11· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· I have, Your Honor.
13· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Yes, on behalf of Mr. Wagner,
14· · I want to acknowledge first for this record that I
15· · feel confident in representing Jake's interest as
16· · he initially expressed them when he signed off on
17· · this Court's routine form exercising his 12(C)(2)
18· · right not to be either video- or audio-recorded.
19· · But I lay that down as the predicate because as a
20· · function of this Court's ruling late in the end of
21· · the court day on Monday, we have since that moment
22· · in time have had no contact with Jake Wagner, which
23· · I'm not complaining about it, but it's important to
24· · put it in the record.· Certainly based on what Jake
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·1· · has said to us regarding his exercise of that

·2· · right, I have no reason to think he's changed his
·3· · mind differently.· Indeed, I indicated on the
·4· · record we were aware almost a week before he took
·5· · the stand that that would be his position because
·6· · we talked to him about it in the Franklin County
·7· · Jail.
·8· · · · · · ·So we would support the fundamental
·9· · position that 12(C)(2) trumps the appellate court's
10· · order.· That said, we're extremely deferential to
11· · it and fully recognize this Court's explanation of
12· · the predicament, if I can use that word.· You have
13· · a superior court who has relied on a supreme court
14· · decision that regarded juvenile court proceedings,
15· · fundamentally different, that regarded the closure,
16· · the complete closure of those proceedings,
17· · fundamentally different, but they still put the
18· · order down.
19· · · · · · ·So on behalf of Mr. Wagner, if indeed as
20· · this court has just now said a few times this
21· · morning the court wants to proceed the case with
22· · some sort of evidentiary hearing, we would ask
23· · first for a modification of the Court's late
24· · afternoon order of October 24th, permit us to have
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·1· · some brief contact with Mr. Wagner, solely on the

·2· · scope of this issue regarding -- this issue being
·3· · what the obvious issue is, is the Court's order
·4· · going to change?· Is Jake going to now from hence
·5· · forth to finish his testimony going to be recorded
·6· · and broadcast?
·7· · · · · · ·We would like for a few minutes to
·8· · interact with him.· I don't think it would take
·9· · long.· I think I know the answer to that question.
10· · And if needed, we will put him on the stand as if
11· · it was a suppression hearing for the very, very
12· · limited purpose of expressing his ongoing desire to
13· · maintain his 12(C)(2) rights and a brief
14· · explanation as to why.
15· · · · · · ·I have had the chance in chambers
16· · yesterday on the record with this court and all
17· · other counsel for the two parties present to
18· · express a couple of foundational reasons as to why
19· · Mr. Wagner wants to exercise 12(C)(2).· Some of
20· · those I believe are common sense knowledge to all
21· · of us involved, broadly stated, in the criminal
22· · justice system as relates to safety issues of
23· · inmates incarcerated after they have cooperated as
24· · State's witnesses especially when that cooperation
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·1· · includes testifying against codefendants, and then

·2· · in this unique situation when it includes
·3· · testifying against family member codefendants.
·4· · · · · · ·We have contended, at least in oral
·5· · argument on the record yesterday, that that
·6· · portends a safety issue.· And that common sense
·7· · teaches us that even though when and if Jake
·8· · Wagner's underlying plea negotiation is perfected
·9· · with a final sentencing order and he goes into
10· · prison for the rest of his natural born days, there
11· · will be those in that prison system who will be
12· · obviously aware of the situation.· But those aware
13· · will be far fewer -- I'll say almost as a matter of
14· · judicial notice -- than if his recorded broadcast
15· · testimony is in perpetuity available on the
16· · Internet.
17· · · · · · ·I think we also all know generally those
18· · of us involved in the criminal justice system, this
19· · isn't just Meyers talking.· We all know -- I know.
20· · I can represent -- and I think I'm not the only one
21· · in the room that knows -- that when an inmate
22· · enters the department of rehabilitation and
23· · corrections and is classified for a parent
24· · institution, among the variables that control
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·1· · classification are the notoriety of the case, the

·2· · severity of the case and any other situations that
·3· · may raise safety concerns regarding that individual
·4· · inmate.
·5· · · · · · ·Therefore, in addition, if this Court
·6· · proceeds with an evidentiary hearing, in addition
·7· · to adducing some evidence from Mr. Wagner, if all
·8· · counsel present on this media issue are not
·9· · prepared to join in a stipulation that roughly
10· · tracks these matters I've just outlined, then we
11· · would ask the Court call as a witness one of the
12· · DRC security staff members who are conveying George
13· · Wagner, IV, back and forth.· And I would anticipate
14· · that anyone in the DRC system, especially the
15· · security staff coming back and forth with
16· · Mr. Wagner daily from, I guess, the Scioto County
17· · Jail, they can say under oath what I have just
18· · outlined with regard to the potential additional
19· · peril that could be posed to Mr. Wagner -- Jake
20· · Wagner's safety in the future if his testimony is
21· · broadcast.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Do you feel that there's a
23· · possibility that the -- his knowledge of that or
24· · his belief of that danger may affect his openness
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·1· · and willingness to testify truthfully?

·2· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· I mean, to state the obvious
·3· · on his behalf because I want him to fulfill the
·4· · conditions of his plea bargain, I would hope not.
·5· · But on a very human nature, a very human level,
·6· · yes.
·7· · · · · · ·I think it could -- you know, a fancy
·8· · legal phrase, rattle his chain.· It could
·9· · needlessly make him more nervous.· I don't think
10· · anything is going to shake Jake's desire to tell
11· · the truth.· But we all know the pressures of being
12· · under oath on that witness stand for anybody are
13· · significant.· And to the extent that those
14· · pressures are enhanced, I think that that could be
15· · a problem.· Not only for Jake but for the parties
16· · involved that have to contend with the testimony
17· · from their respective conditions.
18· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Your Honor, can I make a
19· · point as well?
20· · · · · · ·With the spot that we're at in Jake's
21· · testimony, I think from a fundamental fairness
22· · point of view, the defense hasn't had a chance to
23· · cross him.· And now if we change the context in
24· · which he's testifying by allowing him to be
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·1· · recorded, does that somehow affect the fairness of

·2· · their ability to cross-examine the witness.· What
·3· · Mr. Meyers just said, with any potential chilling
·4· · or anything like that.
·5· · · · · · ·So at least, with respect to this witness,
·6· · I would be hesitant looking at the big picture of
·7· · fairness for all parties to change what we've been
·8· · doing.· Going forward, we can look at each witness
·9· · and go forward.· But, again, I think that all of
10· · those issues that Mr. Meyers just stated with
11· · respect to chilling effect and potential altering
12· · that it could have with this witness, eventually
13· · could affect the cross-examining.· We don't even
14· · want to take that chance.· We don't even want to
15· · make that an issue at this point.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· So you're indicating that you
17· · feel that then there's -- that changing the rule
18· · here with Mr. Wagner, allowing videotaping,
19· · recording, photographing, and filming would --
20· · there's a reasonable possibility it would affect
21· · the fairness of this proceeding?
22· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Midstream.· He's been on the
23· · stand for two days.· I don't think we should inject
24· · something into the record with respect to this
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·1· · trial and what we're here to do that ultimately

·2· · could become an issue that's raised later on that
·3· · it created a fairness issue because we changed the
·4· · way that he was testifying or we changed the way
·5· · that he was being recorded.· I think at this point
·6· · for the overall integrity of his testimony, from a
·7· · contextual point of view and for the record, we
·8· · should probably keep everything exactly the same so
·9· · that fairness issue can't even be raised down the
10· · road.
12· · · · · · ·And how about Mr. Meyers argument -- let's
13· · say we're not talking about a witness who has
14· · already been on the stand for a day and a half or
15· · whatever it has been, but just any defendant who is
16· · testifying against a codefendant, do you agree with
17· · Mr. Meyers that that may affect?
18· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· So I've been a prosecutor
19· · for -- well, I was in the prosecutor's office for
20· · 16 years.· I was elected prosecutor for 8 years.
21· · Whenever you have a cooperating defendant or a
22· · cooperating witness, excuse me, the security issues
23· · with respect to that witness are definitely
24· · heightened.
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·1· · · · · · ·Now I work for the governor's office. I

·2· · work directly with the department of rehabilitation
·3· · and corrections from a policy issue.· I know
·4· · firsthand the security issues that come with
·5· · cooperating witnesses and what can happen to them,
·6· · how they're viewed by other inmates, the security
·7· · risks that goes with that.· What Mr. Meyers is
·8· · saying is, again, generally and well-known by all
·9· · participants in the criminal justice system.
10· · Because of my unique position with the governor's
11· · office and with DRC, again, I get to see at the
12· · strategic level how that plays out.
13· · · · · · ·So, yes, I actually called DRC
14· · headquarters this morning, talked about this issue
15· · with them.· And I've had an opportunity to talk
16· · with some of the STAR team members this morning.
17· · And it's without dispute that witnesses,
18· · codefendants who testify against their other
19· · codefendants, there is a risk to those
20· · codefendants.
21· · · · · · ·And Ms. Canepa and I were talking this
22· · morning about the Lucasville riots.· And, again,
23· · the inmates who were targeted in the Lucasville
24· · riots were basically categorized as cooperators or
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·1· · snitches.
·2· · · · · · ·So it is a very real threat to individuals
·3· · who come into court and testify as part of criminal
·4· · process against a codefendant.
·6· · · · · · ·On behalf of the defendant, either
·7· · Mr. Parker or Mr. Nash, do you want to argue
·8· · concerning what your position is about whether we
·9· · film, videotape, photograph or record Mr. Wagner,
10· · that that could somehow affect or may affect the
11· · fairness of the case?
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I think, you know --
13· · · · · · ·MS. SARK:· Judge, I hate to interrupt.
14· · Can we take a five-minute recess?
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
16· · · · · · ·All right.· Yes, we can do that.
17· · · · · · ·So we'll come back in just a moment, but
18· · we're in recess for five minutes.· Thank you.
19· · · · · · ·(A recess was taken, after which the
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I apologize for the
22· · interruption.
23· · · · · · ·Mr. Parker, you were, I think addressing
24· · the issue.
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·1· · · · · · ·Let me ask you too, before you go forward.

·2· · It's my understanding you oppose Mr. Meyers
·3· · speaking with the witness; is that correct?
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Absolutely, Judge.
·5· · · · · · ·To make that clear, we do object to a
·6· · witness who is in the middle of his testimony
·7· · consulting with his attorney, not about -- not out
·8· · of any disrespect to counsel, but just -- it's not
·9· · the normal course of doing things.· Of course while
10· · counsel may be sincere in his desire to represent
11· · his client's interest, we don't know what the
12· · client is going to say to Mr. Meyers, and it could
13· · open up a whole can of worms we don't think that
14· · should be opened.
15· · · · · · ·So, you know, with respect to the fairness
16· · of the trial, I would say, once again, everybody
17· · agreed to this in advance.· We believe
18· · Rule 12(C)(2) is the proper rule to apply.· You
19· · know, the defense does intend to call witnesses.
20· · We have obviously consulted with them under one set
21· · of rules.· If the Court changes the rules, I can't
22· · predict the impact it will have on our witnesses.
24· · · · · · ·Now, I'm sorry --
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Could I briefly address

·2· · Mr. Parker's most recent statement?
·3· · · · · · ·Standing here, as I do today, as counsel
·4· · for a witness in a capital case who himself
·5· · theoretically still has a potential capital
·6· · liability, I fully understand and appreciate
·7· · Mr. Parker's position that he doesn't want any
·8· · modification of this Court's order of 10/24
·9· · regarding out contact with out client.· That's all
10· · the more reason, if this Court's not going to
11· · modify it, not to change the rules of the game
12· · midstream for Jake Wagner.
13· · · · · · ·If the dynamic is different for Angela
14· · Wagner or any other witness, well, that's not my
15· · job to worry about that.· But I can't possibly
16· · imagine standing here -- well, first, I trust
17· · Mr. Wagner come out on that witness stand to
18· · express under oath the reasons he exercised
19· · 12(C)(2), you know, would trust that this Court, no
20· · matter any defense objection, would allow me as
21· · counsel to ask questions.· But imagine how odd that
22· · is.· I mean, this is a unique situation.· No doubt.
23· · It's rendered unique by the media's, you know,
24· · somewhat understandable interest.· They've
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·1· · indicated their constitutional right, but I also

·2· · want to add to Mr. Wagner's argument, Jake Wagner,
·3· · that I believe this whole proceeding for his
·4· · interest under 12(C)(2) also has constitutional
·5· · protections, and my contention is that flows
·6· · fundamentally from a variety of US Supreme Court
·7· · cases.· One of which is -- one of the central ones
·8· · is the Evitts v. Lucey from 1985.· The fundamental
·9· · principal of Evitts, its progeny, the handful of
10· · cases from the supreme court that it cites is the
11· · following.
12· · · · · · ·Even if the government and any particular
13· · state is not obligated to create a right, once that
14· · right is created, it has to be administered by its
15· · fundamental due process at the constitutional
16· · level.· So not to make Mr. Greiner's argument for
17· · him, no doubt media stands in his shoes with both
18· · the 1st and the 6th amendment on his side.· Jake
19· · has due process rights.· He exercised the rights
20· · under 12(C)(2).· That's what he did.
21· · · · · · ·As far as I know right now wherever Jake
22· · is, he's not in this room, he's operating under the
23· · assumption that the rights he exercised under the
24· · Rules of Superintendence will continue to be
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·1· · honored.
·2· · · · · · ·Finally, I want to bring to the Court's
·3· · attention the case of -- State, ex rel, Dispatch
·4· · against Judge Geer, at the time a Franklin County
·5· · juvenile judge.· The decision is 2007 Ohio 4643,
·6· · and at paragraphs 14, 18, 19, 20, fundamentally
·7· · what Geer does is modifying the Plain Dealer case
·8· · that is quoted by the appellate order filed
·9· · yesterday.
10· · · · · · ·It's applying that Plain Dealer case to a
11· · juvenile proceeding where complete closure was not
12· · an issue.· The judge had allowed photographers in
13· · that room.· And then as the proceeding began, the
14· · parents of the juvenile who was in a plea hearing
15· · said stop, please, we don't -- we don't want our
16· · son's face photographed.
17· · · · · · ·So like here, this room has been in my
18· · time -- in the short time I've been here full of
19· · media.· You have not, to state the obvious, closed
20· · this court.· So the fundamental constitutional
21· · interests have been vindicated.
22· · · · · · ·You have then complied with 12(C)(2)
23· · allowed witnesses like Jake Wagner to say no
24· · broadcast.· And what Geer did to Plain Dealer is it
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·1· · said among those three fundamental tests -- it said

·2· · this court does have to determine if there's a
·3· · reasonable and substantial basis to believe that
·4· · photographing -- in that case, the son's face, the
·5· · juvenile -- could harm him or endanger the fairness
·6· · of the adjudication.
·7· · · · · · ·That, to me, is critical.· Because on the
·8· · face of the Plain Dealer case the only concern was
·9· · the fairness of the proceeding in general.· What
10· · Geer acknowledges is you now and should also
11· · consider any harm to Jake Wagner.· And I think that
12· · ties in everything else I said a moment ago about
13· · my concern if the rules of the game are changed
14· · midstream.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Since you raised Geer, let me
16· · say I've read that case too.· I think they stepped
17· · out of the 12(C)(2).· The judge stepped out of that
18· · in ruling that they could not photograph the
19· · juvenile's face anywhere in a courtroom.· Not just
20· · when he was a witness.
21· · · · · · ·And when we step out of the language of
22· · 12(C)(2), my reading has always been this.· When
23· · you step out of that, then you get into the
24· · necessity of a hearing and so forth.
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·1· · · · · · ·Now, that has been my reading.· Right now,

·2· · the Fourth District Court of Appeals has this
·3· · order, and I think I'm bound by it, so that's what
·4· · we're doing.· But my reading has been that we get
·5· · into this if we're not in a 12(C)(2) situation.
·6· · · · · · ·But that -- that decision is on down the
·7· · line somewhere, either when they decide the
·8· · petition on the merits or the supreme court decides
·9· · it, I guess.
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, if I could just add
11· · one other comment.
12· · · · · · ·In our previous motion and memorandum of
13· · law we cite the clear case law that the media has
14· · no constitutional right to electronically record or
15· · broadcast proceedings.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· And the law is clear on that.
18· · · · · · ·In federal courts, for example, it just
19· · doesn't happen because there's no constitutional
20· · right to it.· So, you know, Ohio has directed this
21· · special rule to enforce -- the rule makers believe
22· · it is a fair process, so we just ask the Court to
23· · continue with that.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, for purposes of
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·1· · the record, I would request that Mr. Wilson be able

·2· · to put on one of the members of the STAR team just
·3· · so there is evidence in the hearing.· I suppose the
·4· · Court could take judicial notice of the things that
·5· · have been said here as far as people that cooperate
·6· · with the State are not popular in prisons.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· There's evidence that you wish
·8· · to put on?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· If the Court needs to hear
10· · testimony to make its decision.· Again, I think we
11· · can stand by what Mr. Meyers said with what we've
12· · said up to this point, that the fact that switching
13· · midstream again creates a potential confrontation
14· · issue that we don't want to a deal with on appeal.
15· · · · · · ·So we could stand by that.· I think if the
16· · Court would like to bolster the record, we
17· · certainly could call a witness.· We need a second
18· · to make sure that they're allowed to testify
19· · through their headquarters, but --
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, let me ask, Mr. Greiner,
21· · do you have anything else you wish to put on today?
22· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· Do I have evidence?
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Anything else you wish to put
24· · on today?
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· I would just like to

·2· · respond.
·3· · · · · · ·Your Honor, I think, you know, clearly, as
·4· · you've said, you're bound by this order.· So I've
·5· · heard some argument, I feel like that goes to the
·6· · order itself.· The order gives respondent -- you
·7· · know, I suppose other interested parties to
·8· · respond.· But the fact of the matter is we're not
·9· · here to argue the merits of this order.· This order
10· · stands, and as you say you're bound by it.
11· · · · · · ·So, you know, right, wrong, or
12· · indifferent, the order is in place.
13· · · · · · ·One of the -- and this order provides that
14· · there are -- as you know, the three factors that go
15· · into it.· Witness safety, inmate safety is not one
16· · of those factors.· Now, you've taken that and said,
17· · yeah, but how does the inmate's safety affect the
18· · fairness of the trial?· But, again, what we've
19· · really heard is at most speculation about that.
20· · Prosecution has said, let's just not even take the
21· · chance.· Well, that's not -- that's not a
22· · reasonable and substantial basis for believing the
23· · public access could harm.
24· · · · · · ·He's also indicated that there is
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·1· · heightened danger whenever a witness cooperates.

·2· · So the inmates, you know, whoever he's going to be
·3· · a danger with, they know he cooperated.· They know
·4· · he testified.· Recording it and allowing the public
·5· · to see and be a part of this process, which is why
·6· · Rule 12 exists, does not change that.· There's no
·7· · indication that there's more marginal danger if
·8· · it's recorded in some form or fashion.
·9· · · · · · ·In terms of, you know, will the witness's
10· · nervousness affect him?· The witness takes an oath
11· · like every witness takes an oath that they will
12· · tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
13· · the truth, and that oath applies whether that
14· · testimony is recorded or not recorded.· Trials are
15· · recorded and broadcast throughout the state of Ohio
16· · every day and there's simply no indication -- no
17· · evidence that recording a witness's testimony
18· · somehow impacts the fairness of the trial.· We've
19· · heard speculation to that effect this morning.
20· · We've heard no evidence.
21· · · · · · ·Thank you, Your Honor.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Mr. Wilson, is --
23· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes, Your Honor.· I would
24· · request to put on one of the members of the
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·1· · employees of the ODRC to provide testimony just for

·2· · purposes of the record, and I would suggest to the
·3· · Court also that there's a vast difference between
·4· · somebody's name being out in public and their face
·5· · being out in public.· Again, videos that they can
·6· · watch, you know, in perpetuity, frankly.
·7· · · · · · ·And obviously there's some chilling effect
·8· · on the witness's testimony otherwise we would not
·9· · have witnesses opt out, right?· There's obviously
10· · some level of discomfort and it's not speculation
11· · to suggest that that would affect their testimony.
12· · And certainly again the previous argument that
13· · changing midstream would raise an issue of right of
14· · confrontation.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I will permit the witness to
16· · testify if there's somebody to testify.
17· · · · · · ·Who are you calling here?
18· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Yes, this is Robert Horton.
19· · · · · · ·ROBERT HORTON was thereupon called as a
20· · witness and, after having been first duly sworn,
21· · testified as follows:
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Mr. Wilson, you may examine.
23· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Thank you, Your Honor.
24· · · · · · · · · · ·DIRECT EXAMINATION
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·1· · BY MR. WILSON:

·2· · · · Q.· ·Can you give the judge your name, please.
·3· · · · A.· ·Robert Horton, H-O-R-T-O-N.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Horton, where do you work?
·5· · · · A.· ·Chillicothe Correctional Institution.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And how long have you worked at
·7· · Chillicothe?
·8· · · · A.· ·19 years.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you -- if you could, take the
10· · judge through when you first got hired on at DRC,
11· · was there a training process or training period
12· · that you had to go through?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Tell the judge very briefly about that,
15· · please.
16· · · · A.· ·It's quite extensive.· Classroom.· At the
17· · time there was physical fitness.· All of the legal
18· · aspects, rules infractions for the offenders, and
19· · your firearms qualifications.
20· · · · Q.· ·As part of that initial training, do you
21· · learn about security concerns with respect to
22· · inmates who are housed at DRC facilities?
23· · · · A.· ·Absolutely.
24· · · · Q.· ·Not only security concerns with respect to
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·1· · the staff, but do you learn about potential

·2· · security concerns with respect to the inmates
·3· · themselves, what may make them a target for certain
·4· · things?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And did you successfully complete all of
·7· · your training there at DRC?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Once you successfully completed that what
10· · was your first assignment with DRC?
11· · · · A.· ·As a correctional officer at Chillicothe
12· · Correctional.
13· · · · Q.· ·Very briefly, can you tell the judge what
14· · your duties were as a corrections officer?· What
15· · kind of stuff did you do there at Chillicothe when
16· · you first were assigned?
17· · · · A.· ·Standard assignments in housing units,
18· · making security rounds, performing searches of
19· · inmate property, searching for major/minor
20· · contraband, and ensuring the safety and well-being
21· · of the offenders as well as staffing.
22· · · · Q.· ·And, again, in your duties there as a
23· · correctional officer with respect to ensuring the
24· · safety of inmates, was one of the things that you
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·1· · were looking out for at all times potential threats

·2· · to those inmates?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In your time there at DRC as a
·5· · correctional officer at Chillicothe working in the
·6· · unit, were there times where you saw inmates
·7· · attacked?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And were there times where you saw inmates
10· · threatened?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And were there times where you saw inmates
13· · injured?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·In your time there at DRC, have you seen
16· · inmates threatened, attacked and injured because
17· · they testified against other inmates?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Is that a common reason why fights or
20· · attacks happen with respect to inmates at DRC?
21· · · · A.· ·It can be.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Is the fact that a witness or --
23· · excuse me -- that a witness testified as a witness
24· · against another inmate or another defendant or in a
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·1· · case, is that a factor that is considered in the

·2· · security assessment with respect to an inmate?
·3· · · · A.· ·Absolutely.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Have you in your time there at DRC gone on
·5· · to other types of duties or specialty duties?
·6· · · · A.· ·Special operations with the special
·7· · response team and the STAR team.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell the judge briefly what the
·9· · special operations team is and what kind of stuff
10· · you do?
11· · · · A.· ·With the SRT, their primary function is to
12· · respond to disturbances within an institution, or
13· · if there has been an influx of violence or major
14· · contraband found in various areas of the prison, we
15· · will go in, conduct a clearout and attempt to get
16· · the major contraband and/or homemade weapons,
17· · weapon from that unit for the safety and security
18· · of the staff as well as the offenders.
19· · · · Q.· ·In your 19 years at DRC and in your time
20· · on special operations responding to some of those
21· · violent incidents, did you learn or did you come to
22· · learn that some of those incidents or acts of
23· · violence were retaliation for an inmate testifying
24· · in a criminal case against a defendant or another
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·1· · inmate?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·In your time there at DRC have you learned
·4· · through observation, training, your general
·5· · knowledge and experience, have you become
·6· · accustomed with the culture of inmates within the
·7· · facility, how inmates view each other, how they
·8· · interact with each other and the general culture of
·9· · the different, I would say, pods or institutions
10· · themselves?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell the judge with respect to the
13· · culture of prison at DRC institutions how are
14· · inmates who testify against either codefendants or
15· · other defendants in a criminal case, how are they
16· · looked at by other inmates in general?
17· · · · A.· ·It would be an uncommon term of
18· · tattletale.· Testifying against a codefendant, it's
19· · not looked at well upon the other offenders, in
20· · general.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that -- is that expanded
22· · even further than just the inmate that they -- or
23· · just the defendant that they testified against?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Does -- based on your knowledge, your

·2· · training, and your experience, when somebody
·3· · testifies in a criminal case against another
·4· · defendant or another inmate, does that word make
·5· · its way against the inmates?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, it does.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And again, does that the fact that that
·8· · information is spread throughout the prison, does
·9· · that create security concerns for that inmate,
10· · staff and other folks at the prison?
12· · · · Q.· ·In your time there at DRC, have you heard
13· · inmates who testified about other inmates referred
14· · to as snitches?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·It's unprofessional, but, however, I have
18· · heard it.
19· · · · Q.· ·And, again, are snitches or people who are
20· · labeled snitches within the prison system at risk
21· · for violence or are they a security concern?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Have you heard terms amongst inmates or
24· · amongst the prison culture, have you heard the
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·1· · phrase snitches get stitches?

·2· · · · A.· ·I have heard that term.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Again, does that refer to retaliation
·4· · against inmates who testify against codefendants
·5· · and other people?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.· And/or other offenders going to
·7· · security staff about other offenders.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· With respect to inmates who have
·9· · family members in the prison system, the fact that
10· · you have inmates who have other -- have other
11· · family members who are also in prison, does that
12· · create security issues that DRC has to address?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And what measures do you take with respect
15· · to that?
16· · · · A.· ·If there are codefendants, the department
17· · makes its highest priority in separating those
18· · family members or codefendants in other
19· · institutions around the state.
20· · · · Q.· ·Based on your knowledge, your training,
21· · your experience, 19 years in this business, is it
22· · your opinion that an inmate who testifies against
23· · their brother in a criminal case would be at a
24· · higher security risk and potentially subject to
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·1· · violence for doing that or retaliation for doing

·2· · that?
·3· · · · A.· ·Absolutely.
·4· · · · Q.· ·In addition, just -- to just the inmate
·5· · being at risk, would it put DRC staff at risk for
·6· · having to deal with it?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I have nothing further.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Let me ask
10· · defense, do you wish to ask any questions of the
11· · witness, cross-examine?
12· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· No, Judge.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Mr. Greiner, do you wish to
14· · cross-examine the witness.
15· · · · · · · · · · ·CROSS-EXAMINATION
16· · BY MR. GREINER:
17· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Horton, are you familiar with Jake
18· · Wagner?· Are you familiar that Jake Wagner entered
19· · a plea in this proceeding?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
21· · · · Q.· ·And when was that?
22· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure of the date.
23· · · · Q.· ·Months ago?
24· · · · A.· ·Perhaps.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·And it's been publicized that part of that

·2· · plea agreement was that he would be testifying
·3· · against his brother, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
·5· · · · Q.· ·So that's been well-known, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Is the DRC's efforts typically effective
·8· · in dealing with enhanced security risks?· I mean,
·9· · you guys know what you're doing, don't you?
11· · · · Q.· ·Thank you.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Any redirect?
13· · · · · · · · · · REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14· · BY MR. WILSON:
15· · · · Q.· ·In spite of your best efforts and the
16· · security that you have in DRC, do inmates still get
17· · injured and killed as a result of retaliation for
18· · this type of stuff?
19· · · · A.· ·They can.
20· · · · Q.· ·And staff as well?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Nothing further.
24· · · · · · ·Any further questions, Mr. Greiner?
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· No, Your Honor.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Any further questions from the
·3· · defense?
·4· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.· Thank you.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Anything else to be submitted
·6· · in this matter?
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Mr. Greiner, anything further?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· No, Your Honor.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to find that with
11· · respect to Jacob Edward Wagner -- Edward Jacob
12· · Wagner only that there does exist a reasonable
13· · substantial basis for believing that public access
14· · could harm or endanger the fairness of the
15· · adjudication, that the potential for harm outweighs
16· · the benefits of public access and that there's no
17· · reasonable alternative to restricting the filming,
18· · videotaping, recording and photographing of that
19· · witness while he is a witness, while he is
20· · testifying, and therefore will order that that not
21· · be done.
22· · · · · · ·I'm not making that a general order with
23· · respect to all witnesses who choose not to be
24· · filmed, videotaped, recorded or photographed.
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·1· · We'll take that on a witness-by-witness basis,

·2· · unless we hear otherwise from either the court of
·3· · appeals or supreme court concerning this issue.
·4· · · · · · ·I'm also going to just put in an order
·5· · that anyone who is in the courtroom prior to the
·6· · court opening a court session, that would just not
·7· · be at the start of the day but the start of each
·8· · recess, after each recess, anybody that's in the
·9· · courtroom will be permitted to stay as long as they
10· · are seated at that time and when the court opens
11· · the courtroom or immediately do become seated after
12· · they've complied with the directive to please
13· · stand, then they must be seated.· And if they're in
14· · here, they will be allowed to stay.· I think that's
15· · what we've been doing anyway, but that was an issue
16· · that somebody had mentioned at some point.
17· · · · · · ·Also, if media -- and this applies to
18· · media only -- need to leave the courtroom in order
19· · to respond to some -- something that's directly
20· · related to their -- to their job, it was mentioned
21· · if we are not videotaping, recording, photographing
22· · or filming, if they need to leave for -- or come
23· · back in, I guess I should say, for that reason it's
24· · not being filmed, et cetera, then they will be
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·1· · permitted to do that as long as they will be seated

·2· · in the back so that we're not -- and they're not
·3· · distracting the jury.· And we will have to regulate
·4· · that sort of on an incident-by-incident basis, if
·5· · there should be no general rule that they be
·6· · excluded.
·7· · · · · · ·However, my bailiff here and other people
·8· · that work for the court as bailiffs are able to
·9· · inform me, if I don't see it myself, of people who
10· · are abusing the privilege by coming in, going out,
11· · coming in, going out -- I don't think that's going
12· · to happen, I don't anticipate it, I haven't seen it
13· · yet, but if it should happen then we may have to on
14· · an incident-by-incident basis exclude someone. I
15· · don't want that to happen, but we're dealing with
16· · professional people here.· They should be able to
17· · understand the appropriate behavior.· I haven't
18· · seen -- with one exception, I haven't seen
19· · inappropriate behavior out of the media, so I don't
20· · expect it.· I don't know if that addresses
21· · everything you mentioned.
22· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· That's fine, Your Honor.
23· · · · · · ·With respect to the ruling about
24· · Mr. Wagner, I guess I would ask because the third
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·1· · factor is no less restrictive means, I would ask

·2· · could there be audio only of his testimony as a
·3· · less restrictive means?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm not going to order
·5· · that in his case.· I think that, as somebody points
·6· · out, that's changing the rules midstream.· And,
·7· · frankly, fairness of the proceeding and having a
·8· · fair trial for both sides is a paramount duty of
·9· · the Court.· And I am concerned at this point he's
10· · been advised that he wouldn't be videotaped,
11· · et cetera, and I think in fairness if we change
12· · that, we would have to notify him in some way,
13· · shape or form and I'm just concerned that could
14· · affect the testimony in some way.· And I know that
15· · counsel for the defense is very sensitive to that
16· · issue and therefore I'm just not going to order it.
17· · In his case solely, he's not to be filmed,
18· · videotaped, recorded or photographed.
19· · · · · · ·Now, is there anything further we need to
20· · put on this record?
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, just -- we've
22· · been informed again today that there's recording
23· · happening while we're not on the record.· So before
24· · the court opens session and not on breaks.· I know
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·1· · the court has advised the media previously not to

·2· · do that.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Are you talking about the
·4· · camera in the back?
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes.· Audio too.
·7· · · · · · ·That is part -- I think that's fairly
·8· · standard.· That is a part of the Court's rule.
·9· · There are people discussing matters.· They may be
10· · court-related matters, they may be not
11· · court-related matters, but the thing I would assume
12· · that what the media is interested in is what
13· · happens in our court hearings, not -- and not
14· · otherwise.· I don't know, Mr. Greiner, if you want
15· · to be heard on that or not.· I think it's just a
16· · situation where the camera's turned on early and
17· · it's not turned off during a break or something of
18· · that sometimes.· I don't know how often it happens,
19· · but it has been brought to the Court's attention.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yeah, Your Honor, I would
21· · just say that, you know, counsel needs to be able
22· · to have private conversations, and this is not a
23· · situation where somebody in the audience can hear
24· · it.
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·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I understand the importance of

·2· · it.· I just wanted to know if Mr. Greiner --
·3· · · · · · ·MR. GREINER:· I don't have anything to
·4· · add, Judge.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· And so -- and we
·6· · just try to remind -- and I would remind counsel
·7· · here, and the bailiff and everybody else, that we
·8· · need to make sure that the one operating the camera
·9· · is aware of that rule every day.· And although it
10· · gets -- you've heard me admonish the jury every
11· · single day of the same thing to the point where
12· · they can probably recite it back to me.· Well, we
13· · need to just inform the camera person every day,
14· · the new camera person, just tell them what the rule
15· · is.· I don't think we'll have any trouble with
16· · that, as long as they understand what the rule is.
17· · · · · · ·So let's do that.· And if somebody
18· · would --
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· -- intentionally not do what
21· · they're supposed to do, bring it to the Court's
22· · attention.
23· · · · · · ·I would say so media the same thing.· If
24· · there's something that you feel is being applied
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·1· · unfairly to you, bring it to the attention of the

·2· · court.· And the court will try to deal with it. I
·3· · don't -- I don't anticipate that, but that's the
·4· · quick way of dealing with it is to bring it to the
·5· · Court's attention not during a hearing.· Bring it
·6· · the Court's attention through the proper people
·7· · through recesses and breaks.· But no standing up
·8· · and reciting objections on the court record while
·9· · we are having a trial.
10· · · · · · ·Is there anything further for this
11· · hearing?
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.· Thank you, Judge.
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· No.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Then we are adjourned.
15· · · · · · ·You're welcome.
18· · · · · · ·(Defendant entered the courtroom.)
19· · · · · · ·(Witness returned to the witness stand.)
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Good morning, again.
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Morning.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We begin another day of trial.
23· · The case is State of Ohio, plaintiff, versus George
24· · Washington Wagner, IV.· Case Number 2018-CR-155.
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·1· · · · · · ·The defendant is present in court with his

·2· · attorneys John Parker and Richard Nash.· The State
·3· · is represented by prosecuting attorney Rob Junk, by
·4· · special prosecuting attorneys Angela Canepa and
·5· · Andrew Wilson.· And Ryan Scheiderer of Ohio BCI&I
·6· · is also present.
·7· · · · · · ·The State is conducting direct examination
·8· · of Edward Jacob Wagner, who is present also and in
·9· · the witness chair.
10· · · · · · ·Are both sides ready to have the jury
11· · brought up?
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, Judge.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You may be seated.
16· · · · · · ·Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.· Good
17· · to see you all here.
18· · · · · · ·You will recall that when we adjourned
19· · yesterday evening that Edward Jacob Wagner was in
20· · the witness chair.· The State was conducting direct
21· · examination of the witness.
22· · · · · · ·Is the State ready to proceed with --
23· · resume your direct examination?
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·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, Your Honor.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Mr. Wagner, I just remind you
·4· · that this is continuous testimony so that the oath
·5· · that was administered to you on Monday is still in
·6· · effect today.· All right?
·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· All right.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You're still under oath.· You
·9· · understand that; correct?
10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The State may examine.
13· · · · · · · · DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
15· · · · Q.· ·Good morning.
16· · · · A.· ·Morning.
17· · · · Q.· ·Jake, I'm going to -- can I remind you
18· · where we left off yesterday?
19· · · · · · ·We were talking about at some point it was
20· · brought to your attention that Sophia had
21· · reportedly made some allegations regarding your
22· · then wife, and you had talked to us about
23· · conversation you had with her, and then you had
24· · prayed for a sign.· And then I think you said that
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·1· · Sophia came forward and said on her own

·2· · spontaneously that she basically had made that up
·3· · because she wanted -- she felt Beth Ann was
·4· · dominating your attention, something along those
·5· · lines.· Is that fair?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· As a result of the allegations that
·8· · your mom had indicated that Sophia had made, did
·9· · your brother voice an opinion about whether
10· · Beth Ann should remain in the house or not?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was his opinion?
13· · · · A.· ·That she shouldn't be living in the same
14· · house as my daughter and nephew.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And based on that or I guess did he
16· · apply pressure on you to have Beth Ann move out?
17· · · · A.· ·I wouldn't call it pressure.· Suggestion
18· · or encouragement, probably.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· As a result of those conversations
20· · with your brother, et cetera, did you start to talk
21· · to Beth Ann about her moving out?
22· · · · A.· ·When you say as a result of -- as in
23· · because of his encouragement, suggestion
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·I said that along with other things.

·2· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us -- well, also did he
·4· · have an opinion about who you were putting first
·5· · between your daughter and your wife?
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, opinion.
·8· · · · · · ·I'm going to sustain the objection.· He
·9· · can say what he observed.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did he tell you whether he felt --
12· · who he felt you were putting first between your
13· · daughter and your wife?
16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who did he think you were
19· · putting first?
22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· He had told me that he
23· · thought that I was putting my wife at the time
24· · before my daughter.
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·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What kind of a plan did you and
·3· · Beth Ann come up with regarding her leaving the
·4· · home on 52 Havener Lane?
·5· · · · A.· ·Hmm.· So by the time that I had made a
·6· · personal decision about -- about my wife at that
·7· · time, I had -- well, actually her and I had come to
·8· · an agreement on a plan, although basically it was
·9· · the same, just hidden from both, I would say,
10· · parties.· I had told -- well, we had agreed that
11· · she would move in with her friend in Nashville,
12· · that we would get a fake divorce so that she could
13· · get the grants provided from the state to go to med
14· · school.· And while she was in college in Nashville,
15· · we would pursue our relationship periodically
16· · throughout the week because my route as a truck
17· · driver went through Nashville twice a week.· And we
18· · would do that until each of us would get to know
19· · each other better and Sophia would have been
20· · more -- well, older for one and more accustomed to
21· · me having a relationship.· But my actual plan was
22· · because of the potential possibilities, because
23· · even though Sophia did basically do what I had
24· · prayed that she would do, I was still suspicious on
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·1· · multiple things of my wife at the time, and I just

·2· · didn't want to deal with the situation on just what
·3· · if.· So my actual motive or actual plan was that
·4· · the fake divorce would in fact be a real divorce
·5· · and once she had gone to Nashville, I would have
·6· · played it that we did continue a relationship for a
·7· · month or so and just ultimately break it off.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you later learn that your wife
·9· · had a similar interest in getting out permanently
10· · as opposed to temporarily?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·But neither one of you were sharing that
13· · with each other at the time?
14· · · · A.· ·No.
15· · · · Q.· ·After she had left, did you guys have any
16· · communications?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what kind of communication?
19· · · · A.· ·I received, I think, two, maybe three
20· · emails and later one phone call.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you come to learn that that
22· · phone call was at the suggestion or request of BCI?
23· · · · A.· ·I did.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you know that at the time?
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·1· · · · A.· ·For a fact, no.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you suspect it at the time?
·3· · · · A.· ·I did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You already mentioned that BCI was
·5· · active in your lives during the time that Beth Ann
·6· · was living with you and when you guys were working
·7· · for R & L.
·8· · · · · · ·And again, by active in your lives, I mean
·9· · talking to your friends and family, et cetera;
10· · correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you now know that conversations
13· · between you and your brother while you were driving
14· · the truck for R & L were being listened to;
15· · correct?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Did you also have suspicions while you
18· · were driving the truck that it -- conversations
19· · were being recorded?
20· · · · A.· ·I did.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And in fact at least on one
22· · occasion you or your brother made the comment that
23· · I know you're listening to us, Ryan?
24· · · · A.· ·I believe I may have said that.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· As a result of believing that you

·2· · were being listened to, did that affect the
·3· · conversations that you had with your brother while
·4· · you were working in that truck?
·5· · · · A.· ·Are you asking that question specifically
·6· · in the direction of working for R & L?
·7· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · A.· ·That was the reason why that caused me to
·9· · be suspicious on that?
10· · · · Q.· ·No.· Did that change the kind of
11· · conversations you had with your brother?· In other
12· · words, you tried to avoid saying anything
13· · incriminating while you were driving the truck?
14· · · · A.· ·I mean, I done that as a whole, so it
15· · wasn't necessarily because of the truck.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So even prior to believing you were
17· · recorded, you tried to avoid saying anything
18· · incriminating?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And just in general, even before these
21· · homicides, were you raised to believe that
22· · conversations are recorded and if desired the
23· · government could go backwards and listen to
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·1· · · · A.· ·You mean phone calls?

·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · A.· ·I was under the assumption that -- well,
·4· · yes.· Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Can I see counsel up here for
·7· · just a minute?
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Someone reported to the fire
12· · department that we have too many people in the
13· · room.
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I need a vacation, Judge.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· This came in.
16· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· How many people are allowed
17· · in the courtroom?
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't know.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I think --
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· But what I need to do is
21· · speak --
22· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· Waverly Fire Department. I
23· · don't know the name.· Deputy Ball is downstairs as
24· · well.
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·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Okay.

·2· · · · · · ·THE BAILIFF:· Have to clear out while they
·3· · do their walk through?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Let me see them in chambers.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I need to take care of a
·9· · matter in chambers.· Probably if everybody will
10· · just remain here for now and I'll be right back
11· · out.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We need the witness back on
15· · the witness chair.
16· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Your Honor, can we approach?
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The situation is that at one
22· · point Mr. Myer said we had too many people in the
23· · courtroom and a fire hazard.· The fire department
24· · responded.· They need to enter the back room and
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·1· · stand and look and determine whether they feel

·2· · there's any fire hazard.· If they find it -- and
·3· · they probably will -- then Jason will remove enough
·4· · people to satisfy.· If they don't find an immediate
·5· · fire hazard, then they're going to come in at our
·6· · lunch break and give us a number of people we're
·7· · allowed to have in here and restrict it to that.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· (Inaudible.)
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't know.
10· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· I can't hear.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Just using the law.
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I just ask whatever
13· · inspections be done be done outside of the presence
14· · of the jury.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· They're not -- they're just
16· · looking.
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I think this needs to be
18· · dealt with.· I think Derek Myers need to be dealt
19· · with.· I think it's a contempt of court.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Let's go ahead and question
21· · this witness and give the Court's attention to
22· · what --
23· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Also, it's my understanding
24· · that the court of appeals has reversed its ruling.
YVer1f
·1· · So we don't have -- it's my understanding the court

·2· · is -- you don't have to have hearings anymore.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We have no notice of
·4· · anything.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· You may resume
·9· · your questioning.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I think we were discussing being
13· · recorded in the truck that you and your brother
14· · were driving, and that at one point you even made
15· · the comment while you were in the truck that you
16· · knew we were listening or knew Ryan was listening;
17· · correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· During this time, did you also
20· · become aware that we had talked to Chris Newcomb,
21· · Randa Hughes, and Rita Newcomb?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did they share what we talked
24· · to them about with you?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·More or less, yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you tell them that they
·3· · didn't have to talk to us?· Or to not talk to us?
·4· · · · A.· ·I did, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was there a time when you learned
·6· · that BCI was confronting Rita with the documents
·7· · that you and your mother and brother had forged?
·8· · · · A.· ·I believe so, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
10· · · · · · ·And at some point did you guys ask her to
11· · say that she had been the one that had notarized
12· · those documents?
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I think it's calling for
16· · speculation.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, that's a yes-or-no
18· · question.
19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What was the question again?
21· · · · Q.· ·At some point did you guys ask Rita to say
22· · that she had been the one that notarized those
23· · documents?
24· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection as to "you guys,"
YVer1f
·1· · Judge.
·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, yeah, probably should be
·3· · more definite about who, so I'm going to sustain
·4· · that objection.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I guess, Your Honor, I was
·6· · going to -- if he said yes, I was going to ask that
·7· · question.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, you guys, though, so.
10· · · · Q.· ·Did anyone in your family ask her to say
11· · that she had notarized those documents?
12· · · · A.· ·I know I did not.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · A.· ·I am not a hundred percent sure on who or
15· · if anyone else had.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · · · ·Do you remember talking about it in the
18· · truck when were you driving with your brother?
19· · · · A.· ·No.· No.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember talking about it
21· · with your brother and mother at any time?
22· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure on that one.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you become aware that she was
24· · going to say that she notarized those documents
YVer1f
·1· · even though she did not?

·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· What is the basis?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The basis of your objection is
·5· · that it is --
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He doesn't have any personal
·7· · knowledge about what she intended.
·8· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I'm asking if he had an
·9· · awareness.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm going to permit him
11· · to answer that.· That's a yes or no, though.
12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you become aware of
15· · that?
16· · · · A.· ·How do I say that?· I had heard -- my
17· · mother had mentioned something about it, but I'm
18· · not sure of the specifics of how like your question
19· · is specifically on that matter.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when you say your mother had
21· · mentioned something about it -- again, I'm not
22· · looking for exact quotes, but tell me what you were
23· · told about that.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, yeah, I'm going to

·2· · sustain the objection.· I think we're going to have
·3· · to have more where and how and circumstances of any
·4· · discussions.· Unless we have that, I'm going to
·5· · have -- then it's going to be stricken about what
·6· · he's heard because we --
·8· · · · Q.· ·During this time, when you were back in
·9· · Ohio after living in Alaska, you already indicated
10· · you became aware that we confronted your
11· · grandmother about those custody documents; correct?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And she did not notarize those documents;
14· · correct?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Did you know that your mother and your
17· · grandmother were required to go to the sheriff's
18· · office and give a handwriting sample?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us when your mother talked to
21· · you about your grandmother being the handwriting in
22· · relation to that -- those events?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when would that have been?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I do not know the date.· Obviously after

·2· · the hearing.· And that was at my grandmother
·3· · Wagner's house.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were you told at that
·5· · time?
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well --
·8· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, if we could
·9· · approach on this?
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I mean, this is conspirator
12· · covering up the crime.
14· · · · · · ·Can we approach?
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I don't think it's
20· · appropriate to discuss a legal basis in front of
21· · the jury, especially talk about coconspirators.
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· What is the basis for your
23· · objection?· What is your objection, legitimate
24· · basis?
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Simply hearsay.

·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's not simply hearsay.
·3· · This is a coconspirator talking about how she has a
·4· · witness covering the fact they forged the
·5· · documents.· I've now established the time it
·6· · happened and where it happened.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We have the time period.· Who
·8· · was present?· I mean --
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He's saying his mother told
10· · him.· I mean, why does it matter who was present?
11· · He's simply going to say what she told him. I
12· · don't understand how this is any different than --
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We don't want to know who was
14· · present?
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, I mean I can get that
16· · out of him, but I don't think that's a predicate
17· · for him to be able to say what somebody told him.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll permit him to answer the
19· · last question.
24· · objection.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · · · ·Jake, that means you can answer the
·4· · question.· I can tell you the question again.
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes, please.
·6· · · · Q.· ·What were you told regarding your
·7· · grandmother and the handwriting?
·8· · · · A.· ·I was told -- basically outlined what
·9· · the -- what the subpoenaed hearing was for, and the
10· · things that was required of both my mother and
11· · grandmother to do and to submit to the court, and I
12· · think there was some talk of some sort about
13· · questions or so on the supposed original documents.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you informed of what your
15· · grandmother was going to say regarding those
16· · documents?
17· · · · A.· ·I believe I was informed.· I wasn't like
18· · directly informed.· I was there, but I was not the
19· · one being spoken to.· But I can't remember
20· · specifically the words that were used or the
21· · contents of them.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You said you were at your
23· · grandmother.· Which grandmother's?
24· · · · A.· ·My Grandmother Wagner.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically, the grandmother

·2· · that we're talking about is Rita Newcomb as far as
·3· · the handwriting goes; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Were you aware as to whether she was going
·6· · to say that she was the one that notarized those
·7· · documents?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was she going to say that?
10· · · · A.· ·I believe so, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you guys pay for an attorney
12· · for her initially?
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection as to "you guys."
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll sustain that
15· · because of the pronoun.· I'm not sure who you're
16· · referring to.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anyone in your family pay for
19· · Ms. Newcomb's -- Rita's attorney initially?
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who do you believe did that?
22· · · · A.· ·This might not -- I believe it come out of
23· · my -- I think my mother did.· I'm not sure.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you don't know which one of you,
YVer1f
·1· · but you believe it was one of you?

·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you and your father and brother
·7· · have to go and give fingerprints and palm prints
·8· · and get your feet measured as well?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·During that kind of same time period?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When Beth Ann was still living with
13· · you, did you have conversations in front of her
14· · regarding the fact that you always wore boots and
15· · you would never wear such ugly shoes?
16· · · · A.· ·Is -- are you talking specifically about
17· · regards to the subpoena that I was a part of?
18· · · · Q.· ·Specifically you guys being accused of
19· · wearing these shoes that your mother bought.
20· · · · A.· ·Oh.· No, I don't remember making a comment
21· · along those grounds.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were shown a gun list that had
23· · been extracted from your phone; correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is it true that you would have

·2· · conversations with George in the truck, and you
·3· · guys would refer to that as a, quote, wish list?
·4· · · · A.· ·I do remember that, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was not true; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Yes, it was not true?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes, you're correct.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you also remember receiving a
10· · photograph of you holding that Colt 1911 .22?
11· · · · · · ·I can be more specific.· Did you or your
12· · brother receive a text message from BCI that
13· · contained that picture?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And also you were sent a picture of a Colt
16· · 1911 with a homemade Maglite suppressor attached to
17· · it; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·I think so, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall where you were
20· · when you guys received that picture?
21· · · · A.· ·We were -- we were in the semi which --
22· · R & L.
23· · · · Q.· ·You were in the semi?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And in fact did you guys call your
·2· · company and tell them that you had a family
·3· · emergency and had to cut your trip short?
·4· · · · A.· ·I did use those words, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall your brother also
·6· · using those words prior to you making the call?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You don't recall that?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us when you saw
11· · that photograph what effect that had on you?
12· · · · A.· ·Well, let's see.· I would say -- I reckon
13· · you want me to give like how I -- effect, you mean
14· · by the reaction?· What was I thinking, that type of
15· · thing?
16· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
17· · · · A.· ·Okay.· So when I received it, I don't
18· · actually think I'm the one that received that
19· · photo.· I think that was specifically George.
20· · Maybe.· Maybe.
21· · · · · · ·I did see that it was the same make/model
22· · of a handgun I owned prior, the one I had used for
23· · the homicide, but my thoughts was not that, per se,
24· · BCI had recovered it for the fact that I knew they
YVer1f
·1· · had not recovered it.· But my concerns were because

·2· · BCI had reached directly through my cell phone,
·3· · contacted me directly or my brother, I was feeling
·4· · or at least self-assumption that BCI had broken
·5· · some kind of regulation because we were then in
·6· · fact represented from my attorney.· We figured that
·7· · he would have had gone through our attorney rather
·8· · than directly through us.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how does that make it a family
10· · emergency that you have to stop work and drive back
11· · to Ohio?
12· · · · A.· ·Well, it doesn't.
13· · · · Q.· ·You said it doesn't?
14· · · · A.· ·No.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At that point you knew that BCI at
16· · least knew the type of weapon -- one of the types
17· · of weapons that was used in the crime; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to hand you a photograph
20· · that has been removed from the envelope marked
21· · ZZ-1.
22· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit ZZ-1 was marked for
23· · identification.)
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell me, do you recognize that
·2· · photograph?
·3· · · · A.· ·I do.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And what do you recognize that as?
·5· · · · A.· ·That is the Colt 1911 that I had bought
·6· · and owned and committed homicide with it.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that also -- so that is your
·8· · hand holding that gun?
·9· · · · A.· ·It is.
10· · · · Q.· ·And is that also the photograph that was
11· · sent either to you or to your brother's phone by
12· · BCI?
13· · · · A.· ·Uh --
14· · · · Q.· ·Or one of the photos, I should say?
15· · · · A.· ·I don't necessarily remember which photo
16· · it was.· I just remember that it was a photo of a
17· · 1911.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You did at some point see a photo
19· · of your hand holding the gun because there was lots
20· · of discussion about whether or not that was your
21· · hand; correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically one of the stories
24· · or whatever that was told by you and others is that
YVer1f
·1· · there was a picture taken of you in Alaska holding

·2· · a fish and maybe we took that fish away and put
·3· · this gun in your hand.· Do you remember that?
·4· · · · A.· ·No, I don't remember that.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did somebody take a picture of you
·6· · in Alaska holding a fish?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes, they did.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you later think that that
·9· · might have been a BCI person?· Or at the time?
10· · · · A.· ·I did.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall -- I should have
12· · asked you.· When you were out at Grandma Wagner's
13· · home and discussing the handwriting stuff, who was
14· · all present during that discussion?
15· · · · A.· ·Myself, my mother, father, my brother, and
16· · my grandmother Rita --
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
18· · · · A.· ·-- Newcomb.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall a time when that
20· · photograph that was just up of you holding that gun
21· · was shown to your wife and asked -- and she was
22· · asked what that looked like or whose hand that
23· · looked like?
24· · · · A.· ·No.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You don't ever recall that discussion?

·2· · · · A.· ·You asked me if I -- can you repeat the
·3· · question again, please?
·4· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · · · ·Specifically at your grandmother Wagner's,
·6· · were you present when that photograph was shown to
·7· · Beth Ann, and she was asked what that looked like?
·8· · · · A.· ·I don't recall that, no.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did she ever see that photograph,
10· · to your knowledge?
11· · · · A.· ·I may have showed it to her, but I don't
12· · think -- I'm not sure on that.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you or anyone else in your
14· · family ever tell her that she needed to be careful
15· · about what she was saying because the home might be
16· · bugged, the phones might be bugged, et cetera?
17· · · · A.· ·I believe I did tell her that the
18· · communications and whatnot could be bugged and
19· · whatnot.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at some point you also told her
21· · that it was dangerous for her to go outside because
22· · BCI could come up and talk to her or the media
23· · could come up and talk to her?
YVer1f
·1· · leading.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's a leading question.
·5· · it.
·6· · · · · · ·You may answer.
·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't believe I ever told
·8· · her in that manner of your question, no.
10· · · · Q.· ·Did you ever share your concerns with your
11· · wife about the media trying to talk to you guys,
12· · BCI trying to talk to you guys?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was there a time where BCI
15· · executed a search warrant on your home at Havener
16· · Lane?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And your wife was still living there;
19· · correct?
20· · · · A.· ·I don't think she was at the time.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was there a time when she -- when
22· · BCI showed up to talk to Chris, Rita, and Randa and
23· · she was living with you at the time?
24· · · · A.· ·I do remember my uncle Chris telling me
YVer1f
·1· · that BCI had showed up to talk to him, but I don't

·2· · remember -- I believe that was after my wife at the
·3· · time had left.· I don't think she was there.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you ever recall a conversation
·5· · that occurred in the truck, in the R & L truck,
·6· · about whether or not Beth Ann saw BCI when they
·7· · came to your house?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Were you guys also concerned that your
10· · grandmother Wagner's home might be bugged?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us again were there times
13· · especially in the truck where your brother would
14· · make threats about harming various BCI agents and
15· · then Attorney General DeWine?
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Say it again.
20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I cannot say per se threats,
21· · but I had heard what I called vented frustration.
22· · So I guess the answer would be yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when you say vented frustration,
YVer1f
·1· · specifically he talked about physical harm that he

·2· · would like to do to those people?
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· It's
·4· · leading.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule that,
·6· · let him answer it.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You can answer.
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· During those times would you try to
11· · calm him down and tell him not to say those things
12· · in the truck?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us -- speaking of the way you
15· · were raised, I guess, even before the homicides,
16· · were you -- talk to me about your upbringing as far
17· · as guarding against people overhearing
18· · conversations or getting away with the various
19· · crimes that you guys did commit.
20· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry, I was listening, but I don't --
21· · can you repeat the whole thing, please?
22· · · · Q.· ·Yep.· Yep.
23· · · · · · ·Just describing your upbringing, were you
24· · taught anything about evading law enforcement when
YVer1f
·1· · you -- when you would commit your various crimes?

·2· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And tell me some of the things that
·4· · you were taught in that light.
·5· · · · A.· ·I was taught to -- hmm, how to explain
·6· · that.· To always be respectful and agreeing,
·7· · compliant with authorities.· To always act as if
·8· · one was being listened to, always be observant of
·9· · your surroundings.· Always act as if you belonged
10· · in the place you was.· And if I was to hide
11· · something, to hide it in plain sight.
12· · · · Q.· ·And all of these things were meant to
13· · avoid apprehension and being held accountable for
14· · any of the crimes that you committed?
15· · · · A.· ·Among other things, yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· To that end, can you tell us was
17· · your dad upset that you had bought some of the
18· · stuff to build the silencers online?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes, he was.
20· · · · Q.· ·Was he also upset with you and George for
21· · dying your hair that week?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes, he was.
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Object to the last question,
24· · Your Honor.
YVer1f

·3· · · · Q.· ·At some point did you learn that Chris
·4· · Newcomb was talking to other relatives about the
·5· · guns that you guys had owned and sold -- that you
·6· · had previously owned and sold?
·7· · · · A.· ·Just so I understand the question, can you
·8· · repeat that one more time?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Did you learn that Chris Newcomb was
10· · being asked by some relatives about the guns that
11· · you and your family had owned and sold?
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· One, a time.· What time frame
15· · are we talking about?· What relatives are we
16· · talking about, et cetera?
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah, I think you're going to
18· · have to break that down a little bit, so I'm going
19· · to sustain the objection.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
22· · · · · · ·During the time that you were driving for
23· · R & L truck, did you learn that Chris had been
24· · talking to other relatives of yours about guns you
YVer1f
·1· · had owned and sold?

·4· · · · · · ·You may answer.
·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·When you went to Alaska the first time
·8· · to -- for that short trip, where did you keep your
·9· · weapons?
10· · · · A.· ·I left them at my grandmother Wagner's
11· · house.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically whose room did you
13· · leave those guns in?
14· · · · A.· ·They were left in the closet of my Aunt
15· · Robin.
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Note our objection, Judge.
17· · · · · · ·Note our objection.· Can we approach for a
18· · moment?
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Objection?
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Can we approach for just a
21· · moment?
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.
YVer1f

·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, once again we're
·3· · getting into weapons that are not involved in the
·4· · murders here.· This is a Thomas issue.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That was the extent of my
·6· · conversation.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I understand.· It's still
·8· · improper.
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· We already had testimony
10· · about the weapons.
11· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· We didn't go through specific
12· · weapons.· And the majority of those weapons that
13· · were recovered we painstakingly linked to the list
14· · that they testified to.
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Our continuing objection.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The objection to the last
21· · question is overruled.
24· · · · Q.· ·And, Jake, were those specifically just
YVer1f
·1· · weapons that belonged to you or were they weapons

·2· · that belonged to other people in your family?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I am going to sustain
·5· · the objection.
·6· · · · · · ·Are these weapons that you're asking
·7· · questions about related to this case somehow?· And
·8· · if so, if I can hear that, I can -- maybe it's not
·9· · objectionable.· I think the way it's put right now
10· · it's an objectionable question.
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes, Your Honor, regarding
12· · the gun list.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I haven't heard anything
14· · about a gun list from this --
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He said that he got the gun
16· · list and that it was not a wish list, it was an
17· · actual list of guns they owned.· He's already
18· · testified to that.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I haven't heard the
20· · relation to the questions you're asking him right
21· · now.· I haven't heard those related to a list or
22· · somehow related to the case, so I'm sustaining the
23· · objection.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·During the time that you were driving with
·3· · your brother in the truck and we were listening to
·4· · your conversations, did your brother tell you that
·5· · you should have gotten rid of the laptop that we
·6· · confiscated at the border?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall him telling you that
·9· · you should have smashed your phone instead of
10· · giving it to us?
11· · · · A.· ·I do remember somebody telling me in that
12· · time frame that I should have smashed my phone, but
13· · I cannot remember where, when, or who.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall him telling you that
15· · your honesty always gets you guys in trouble?
16· · · · A.· ·Did you ask -- the first part of the
17· · question, did you ask he or I?
18· · · · Q.· ·Did George say to you that your honesty
19· · has always gotten the two of you in trouble?
20· · · · A.· ·I remember something like that, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Would you say that your plans
22· · leading up to committing these homicides were not
23· · just to accomplish the killing of the individuals,
24· · but also to get away with it or not be detected?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·I think you talked about this perhaps
·3· · yesterday, but how much did you talk about the
·4· · homicides?· For instance, with your brother after
·5· · you guys had returned home?
·6· · · · A.· ·None.
·7· · · · Q.· ·How often did you talk about the homicides
·8· · with your mother after you had come back home?
·9· · · · A.· ·It maybe wasn't clear yesterday, but none.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Sorry.
11· · · · · · ·Was there ever a time that your father
12· · talked to you about the homicides after you had
13· · come home?
14· · · · A.· ·There was a time when he made one comment.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was that comment?
16· · · · A.· ·I believe this was after Gary's funeral,
17· · and I remember him saying something about the dog,
18· · Brownie, was owned by Kenneth was in the camper,
19· · but it didn't move.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know what prompted him
21· · to say that?
22· · · · A.· ·I remember he was talking to Uncle Dave at
23· · Gary's funeral, and I think that Brownie was a
24· · topic of that conversation.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us -- speaking of

·2· · dogs, did your dad have a tie to any of Chris's
·3· · dogs, Chris Senior's dogs?
·4· · · · A.· ·I don't think I understand your question.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you guys own any dogs that were
·6· · related in any way to any of the dogs that
·7· · Chris Senior had?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what dog was that?
10· · · · A.· ·My father owns a pup out of Chris Senior's
11· · dog, Chance, and a female dog.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When I asked you specifically if
13· · you talked about the homicides themselves after you
14· · came back home, that's separate from you talking
15· · about the BCI investigation; correct?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·You did have a lot of conversations about
18· · the investigation?
19· · · · A.· ·Umm --
20· · · · Q.· ·And let me make that specific.
21· · · · · · ·In particular during that time that you
22· · were driving the truck with your brother and BCI
23· · was active again.
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Later was there ever a time that

·2· · you had a conversation with your father about the
·3· · homicides in general and any regrets you had?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell me what that conversation
·6· · was?
·7· · · · A.· ·I can't remember a quote.· It was very
·8· · brief.· He was frustrated with me because of what
·9· · he had per se been made to do because of me, and
10· · asked if I regretted doing the homicides.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you say to him?
12· · · · A.· ·I had told him that I did not.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was that true?
14· · · · A.· ·It was not.
15· · · · Q.· ·Why did you say that to him?
16· · · · A.· ·To make him feel better.
18· · · · A.· ·I assumed the proper way to say that would
19· · be I felt that if I told him that I believed that
20· · it could have gone differently, that it could have
21· · caused him to have more immense grief over what he
22· · had done to have possibly -- I guess, the sense of
23· · doing something that would be not worth it per se
24· · could have led him to suicide.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Prior to your arrest, did you as a

·2· · family discuss what would happen if one or more of
·3· · you were arrested?
·4· · · · A.· ·There was a discussion about that, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Before I go to that, I want to just
·6· · talk about a few miscellaneous things.
·7· · · · · · ·Did your dad ever have a problem with
·8· · abusing pills, to your knowledge?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And tell me about that.
11· · · · A.· ·I can only tell you what I personally
12· · seen.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · A.· ·The rest is not personal knowledge.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
16· · · · A.· ·From the time that he had become a truck
17· · driver, I had -- and of course me being involved in
18· · that business, I had witnessed several times of my
19· · dad using various pain medications or other
20· · substance pill medications to so -- well, actually
21· · for two reasons.· One for his body pain, which was
22· · immense.· He's broken almost all of his bones.
23· · Two, to keep him awake so he could drive forever
24· · and longer.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And are you aware how he would obtain

·2· · those pills?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anyone in your family ever get
·5· · weight loss pills or medication?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Who?
·8· · · · A.· ·My father, mother, brother, uncle. I
·9· · guess I should say Uncle Chris, his fiancée Randa.
10· · I believe that's all.· There may be more, I don't
11· · know.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And where would you go to get those
13· · weight loss pills or would they go?
14· · · · A.· ·I believe I had -- was present -- not in
15· · the doctor's office specifically, but I think I was
16· · present in the parking lot someplace over in
17· · Kentucky, across the river somewhere.· I'm not sure
18· · where.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anyone else in the family have
20· · a problem with pills specifically?
21· · · · A.· ·Not to my knowledge, no.
22· · · · Q.· ·Did anybody else in your family use any
23· · type of drug?
24· · · · A.· ·I can't remember a time when I witnessed
YVer1f
·1· · anyone other than my father.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · A.· ·Maybe -- maybe my uncle, maybe.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Are you aware as to whether or not
·5· · George specifically used marijuana?
·6· · · · A.· ·I have heard that he had.
·9· · objection and order the jury to disregard that
10· · response because it sounds like hearsay.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You never observed it yourself, is
13· · that what you're saying?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Are you aware as to whether anybody
16· · in the family was prescribed any antidepressants or
17· · antianxiety medicine?
18· · · · A.· ·Not that I know of, no.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that you were
20· · familiar with where the -- the two grows on
21· · Chris Senior's property was.· Was there -- would
22· · you say that your dad was involved in any of that
23· · with Chris?
24· · · · A.· ·Can you be a little bit more specific?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Was your dad aware of the grows on Chris's

·2· · property?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes, he was.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was there ever a time that your
·5· · dad also grew marijuana?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And where and when was that?
·8· · · · A.· ·The timeline I'm not sure of.· It would
·9· · have been before Sophia was born.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
11· · · · A.· ·Actually before Bulvine was born.· And
12· · Chris had -- Chris Senior had tried to, I guess,
13· · the word would be teach or educate my dad in how to
14· · work the system as he did on two occasions on the
15· · Bethel Hill property.
16· · · · Q.· ·When you say, "work the system," what do
17· · you mean?
18· · · · A.· ·The method on how Chris Senior grew
19· · marijuana.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so where on your property were
21· · those two attempts made?
22· · · · A.· ·One was in a pull-behind house camper in
23· · our pine trees and the second was in our basement
24· · of our new house.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And were they successful?

·2· · · · A.· ·No.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us who would have
·4· · been aware of those?
·5· · · · A.· ·Well, Chris Senior, my father, myself, my
·6· · brother, my mother, Frankie, Hanna, Kenneth. I
·7· · think Gary.· I'm not a hundred percent sure on
·8· · that.· And to my knowledge, that's it.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· To your knowledge, did your dad
10· · ever attempt any grows after that?
11· · · · A.· ·No.
12· · · · Q.· ·Were you aware of an incident that
13· · happened to your mother while she was serving in
14· · the military?
15· · · · A.· ·If you're referring to what I think you're
16· · referring to, yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically a sexual assault?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you aware as to whether or
20· · not that was ever reported to the authorities?
21· · · · A.· ·I do not know.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You already indicated that you were
23· · arrested on November 13th of 2018; correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Did you say 13th?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·13th.

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at that time was your
·4· · grandmother also charged for forgery regarding
·5· · those custody documents?
·6· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure if I was specifically told
·7· · the exact charges, but I assume that's -- I
·8· · think that -- yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At some point did you learn that
10· · she had decided to cooperate with the prosecution?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how you learned
13· · that?
14· · · · A.· ·My lawyers told me.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically what did you learn
16· · as to why she had done that?
17· · · · A.· ·Something along the lines of -- which I
18· · don't quote -- she had something about the
19· · reasoning was she couldn't lie anymore or lying was
20· · not the Christian thing to do or something similar
21· · to that.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how that
23· · affected you?
24· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection to this, Judge.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis of this?

·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's improper bolstering.
·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The question --
·6· · · · Q.· ·How did that affect you when you found out
·7· · that your grandmother had stood up and said that
·8· · she couldn't lie anymore that that was not the
·9· · Christian thing to do?
10· · · · A.· ·To me it felt like it was the answer I was
11· · looking for -- looking for at the time for, I
12· · suppose you could call it an answer from God.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So can you tell us what
14· · specifically you had prayed for?
15· · · · A.· ·On whether or not to -- well, I had prayed
16· · for -- well, a lot of things.· But specifically
17· · lying to my lawyers or specifically about the whole
18· · thing was, I guess, weighing or getting to me or
19· · something I was struggling with, however you would
20· · describe that, and I had felt that was God telling
21· · me that, well, there's your answer.
22· · · · Q.· ·As a result of believing that you had
23· · gotten your answer, what did you do?
24· · · · A.· ·I had -- I guess you call it, I guess the
YVer1f
·1· · word would be confessed, but I had told my lawyers

·2· · the truth of the matter.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And at that time, was your intent
·4· · to turn State's evidence or cooperate with the
·5· · State in any way?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically did you still
·8· · intend to have a trial in your case?
·9· · · · A.· ·I did.
10· · · · Q.· ·So the purpose of telling your attorneys
11· · the truth was what at that time?
12· · · · A.· ·To basically, I guess one form would be
13· · to -- the word get it off your chest type thing,
14· · but specifically to give him the basics as to why I
15· · would not testify for myself.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why wouldn't you testify for
17· · yourself?
18· · · · A.· ·Because I would have to lie.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If Rita's plea was in December of
20· · 2019, can you tell us how -- how long after that
21· · did you confess to your attorneys?
22· · · · A.· ·Shortly after that.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Within weeks?· Within a month?· If
24· · you have a recollection.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I don't really have a specific -- it could

·2· · have been late December, maybe early to mid
·3· · January.· It wasn't very long.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you tell them everything
·5· · that happened?
·6· · · · A.· ·Ultimately, yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically did you tell them
·8· · everything about your role and your involvement in
·9· · the homicides?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·The people that you shot?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And the homes that you entered?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you also tell them about your
16· · dad's involvement?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And the extent of your mother's
19· · involvement?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And the extent of your brother's
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At some point were there
YVer1f
·1· · discussions about potentially resolving your case

·2· · with a plea?
·3· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that one more time?
·4· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· At some point were there discussions
·5· · about possibly resolving your case with a plea?
·6· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you have a recollection of
·8· · when that was?
·9· · · · A.· ·I think that was March or April of '21, I
10· · think.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So basically over a year
12· · later?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And as part of those plea
15· · negotiations, did you agree to sit down with the
16· · prosecutors in this case and tell us everything
17· · that had happened?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And in exchange for sitting down
20· · with us and telling us everything that happened and
21· · also showing us where the weapons that had been
22· · used that night were, did the State agree to
23· · dismiss the death specifications against you?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you also want other concessions

·2· · by the State regarding your family?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And what did you want regarding your
·5· · family?
·6· · · · A.· ·Well, there was a lot that I wanted.
·7· · · · · · ·I think the -- what's the word I'm looking
·8· · for?· Ultimately was agreed upon was to dismiss the
·9· · death specifications to all the family.
10· · · · Q.· ·Against your brother?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Against your mother?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And against your father?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were you required to do as
17· · a part of that agreement?
18· · · · A.· ·To testify against any of the -- of my
19· · family who went to trial.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically to provide
21· · truthful, complete and accurate testimony; correct?
23· · leading.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So is it fair to say that your
·4· · appearance today and the previous two days is in
·5· · part due to that agreement?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Is what you have told us today and over
·8· · the past few days true and complete and accurate
·9· · testimony?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And is it consistent with what you also
12· · told your attorneys more than a year before coming
13· · forward to us?
15· · Objection.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I beg your pardon?
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Can we approach?
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· One, it's an improper prior
23· · consistent statement.· Okay.· Can't testify about a
24· · prior consistent statement.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Two, he's made his attorneys witnesses now

·2· · and we're entitled to all the materials they have
·3· · concerning their interviews with him to see if this
·4· · is true or not, to see if we can call them as a
·5· · witness.· This opened up a whole can of worms,
·6· · Judge.
·7· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, first of all, he hasn't
·8· · answered the question.· And, second of all, I
·9· · disagree that he can describe whether or not he --
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to sustain the
11· · objection.
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, to be clear, we still
13· · think he's opened up this can of worms to his
14· · attorneys and entitled to their notes and
15· · interviews they had because he waived his
16· · attorney-client privilege.
17· · · · · · ·Yes, he did.· He did previously when he
18· · said after Rita --
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, he said he told them
20· · what happened.
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· That's exactly.· He said he
22· · told them what happened and it's the truth, so now
23· · we're entitled to their notes and discovery.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That is not.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Waived his attorney-client

·2· · privilege and he's opened up everything to us now.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm sustaining the
·4· · objections.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The objection is sustained as
·9· · to the last question.
11· · · · Q.· ·Did you, in fact, sit down with the State
12· · in this case and tell us what happened?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall how many days you
15· · met with us that first time?
16· · · · A.· ·Two or three.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall if you also told
18· · us where the weapons were that you had used in the
19· · offense?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And did you also tell us the vehicle that
22· · was used the night of the homicides?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And one of the two days prior that you
YVer1f
·1· · testified you indicated that you did not know

·2· · initially where your dad took that truck, that you
·3· · found out later; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·At what point did you find out where that
·6· · truck was?
·7· · · · A.· ·Several months maybe, possibly close to a
·8· · year.· It was -- it was a while past.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you find that out?
10· · · · A.· ·My uncle had made a comment.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Which uncle?
12· · · · A.· ·My Uncle Bobby Wagner.
13· · · · Q.· ·And who is Bobby?
14· · · · A.· ·My dad's brother.
15· · · · Q.· ·And where does your dad's brother live?
16· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry?
17· · · · Q.· ·Where does he live, your dad's brother?
18· · · · A.· ·Oh, he lives in Athens, Ohio.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what comment did he make that
20· · led you to believe that that truck was with him?
23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· He had -- while I was
24· · working on his truck, he had made comment how nice
YVer1f
·1· · it was that my dad had given my cousin Katy, his

·2· · daughter, a pickup truck.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And so did you let us know that
·5· · information when we sat down with you?
·6· · · · A.· ·I did.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And you told us exactly where to find the
·8· · buckets of concrete that you had placed in the pond
·9· · or laid out at the Flying W; correct?
10· · · · A.· ·I did.
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-3.· It's recovered items
12· · 1.
13· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit PPP-3 was marked for
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, Jake, can you tell us, do you
17· · recognize any of those objects that's in that
18· · photograph?
19· · · · A.· ·I do.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what do you recognize those as?
21· · · · A.· ·The contents of a bucket.· Concrete.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And starting with that lower
23· · left-hand corner, the gun there, can you tell us
24· · specifically if you recognize that?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·That was my 1911.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And it appears to be in how many
·3· · different pieces?
·4· · · · A.· ·Three.· Well, if you count the small
·5· · pieces, it's multiple.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us immediately
·7· · above that weapon what do you see?
·8· · · · A.· ·A flashlight.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you referenced your dad having
10· · a flashlight.· Is this the flashlight that your dad
11· · had or is this some other flashlight?
12· · · · A.· ·I specifically referenced I thought he had
13· · a flashlight and I do believe that is it.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then immediately above that,
15· · what item is that, or items?
16· · · · A.· ·That's better.· Thank you.
17· · · · · · ·That is the barrel assemblies of the --
18· · assembly of the 1911.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then above that?
20· · · · A.· ·I am not sure on that one.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Then going over to the other side,
22· · first of all, there is a black object in the middle
23· · there, which is vertical.
24· · · · A.· ·That is a magazine to a Glock.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then the items there on that

·2· · white plastic thing on the lower right-hand corner,
·3· · what are those items?
·4· · · · A.· ·Those look like 7.62x39 ammunition.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then the other cartridge cases
·6· · that are above -- or cartridges that are above
·7· · that?
·8· · · · A.· ·I believe those are .40 caliber.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then in the upper right-hand
10· · corner there?
11· · · · A.· ·Those are .22 caliber.
12· · · · Q.· ·And these are items that you placed in the
13· · buckets, the concrete buckets; is that correct?
14· · · · A.· ·I don't remember the ammunition, but yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
16· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· If you could focus in on the
17· · barrel construction, above the flashlight.
19· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what each of those
20· · individual items are?
21· · · · A.· ·The large piece?
22· · · · Q.· ·Yep.
23· · · · A.· ·That is a pipe fitting.
24· · · · Q.· ·A what?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Pipe fittings.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Tell us about that.
·3· · · · A.· ·Those are the pipe fittings specifically
·4· · called reducers or adapters, one thread size to the
·5· · next which I had used for the oil filter.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that something that you had
·7· · placed on that barrel?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was the 1911?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-26.
13· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Same bucket?· Different
14· · bucket?
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Bucket 4.
19· · · · Q.· ·Do you recognize that item?
20· · · · A.· ·I mean, I know what it is.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What is it?
22· · · · A.· ·It is a magazine for an AK or SK style
23· · assault rifle.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall placing that in one
YVer1f
·1· · of those buckets?

·2· · · · A.· ·I do not.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-28, which is filter 3.
·5· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit PPP-28 was marked for
·6· · identification.)
·8· · · · Q.· ·Do you recognize that item?
·9· · · · A.· ·Again, I know what it is.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is it?
11· · · · A.· ·It is an oil filter.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall placing that item
13· · in the bucket?
14· · · · A.· ·I do not.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'm sorry, I couldn't hear
17· · the last answer, Judge.
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I could not hear the last
20· · answer.
21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I did not, no.
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Thank you.
24· · · · Q.· ·And refresh my recollection.· Yesterday
YVer1f
·1· · you indicated that you believed that you put items
·2· · in three of the four buckets; is that correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·4· · · · Q.· ·But there were four -- sorry?
·5· · · · A.· ·Go ahead, I can hear you.
·6· · · · Q.· ·There were four total buckets created?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-22.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us what that is?
13· · · · A.· ·That is the action of the SKS.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall putting that in
15· · the bucket?
16· · · · A.· ·I do.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was the SKS that belonged
18· · to your brother; correct?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-23, which is Glock 2244.
24· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell us what that item is or
YVer1f
·1· · items are?

·2· · · · A.· ·That is a -- the Glock 40 that I put in
·3· · there.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you did put those items in the
·5· · bucket?
·6· · · · A.· ·I did.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And did you also cut them or put them in
·8· · the pieces that we see them in?
·9· · · · A.· ·I do remember cutting it.· I don't
10· · remember cutting those shapes, but yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-30.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell us what that is?
17· · · · A.· ·That is a glob of several things.· Which
18· · one are you referring to?
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Why don't you go ahead and tell us
20· · everything that we're looking at.
21· · · · A.· ·Well, it looks like a -- I think that's a
22· · Glock magazine in the back.· I see a couple 7.62x39
23· · cartridges.· An AK or SK magazine, a green hunting
24· · knife, and I think that is part of a barrel for the
YVer1f
·1· · SK.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And whose knife is that?
·3· · · · A.· ·That is mine.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us, is that the
·5· · knife that you used to try to pry open the door at
·6· · Frankie's house?
·7· · · · A.· ·It is.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you had indicated to us --
·9· · well, I guess, let's go to PPP-31.
13· · · · Q.· ·And is that the same knife?
14· · · · A.· ·It is.
15· · · · Q.· ·And does it appear to have the tip broken
16· · off there?
17· · · · A.· ·It does not.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you believed the tip to have
19· · been broken when you were trying to pry open that
20· · door?
21· · · · A.· ·I specifically remember it breaking, yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Okay.
23· · · · · · ·So showing you what's been marked as
24· · State's Exhibit B-188.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me if the damage that we see

·2· · there at that door, is that something that you
·3· · caused with that knife that night?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-32, which is --
10· · · · Q.· ·Again, can you tell us what we're looking
11· · at there?
12· · · · A.· ·That looks like an SK or AK style
13· · magazine.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· And PPP-33.
20· · · · A.· ·That looks like -- well, it is -- it's a
21· · handgun magazine, two handgun magazines.· I'm not
22· · sure exactly what that's for, though.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· State's Exhibit PPP-34, which
YVer1f
·1· · is item 4.5 and then it's got a 1.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what that is?
·6· · · · A.· ·That is a magazine for a Glock.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And did you put that in the buckets?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-35.
14· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what we're looking at
15· · there?
16· · · · A.· ·I believe those are .40 caliber and
17· · 9 mm caliber.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis is.
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· The 9 mm, Judge.
22· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· They were found in the bucket
23· · in the pond.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll overrule the
YVer1f
·1· · objection.
·3· · · · Q.· ·State's Exhibit PPP-36.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Same argument.· Same
·8· · argument.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah, I'm overruling the
10· · objection.· You can answer it.
12· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what those are?
13· · · · A.· ·9 mm ammunition.
14· · · · Q.· ·And how are those related to the
15· · homicides?
16· · · · A.· ·Are you asking about the ammunition
18· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
19· · · · A.· ·I'm assuming it's probably the ammo.
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge, as to
21· · assumptions.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.· I'll sustain the
23· · objection because of the way he started his answer,
24· · but the question, I don't think was -- I'm not
YVer1f
·1· · finding the question objectionable, but if he has

·2· · knowledge.
·4· · · · Q.· ·How were those related -- were those
·5· · involved in any of your preparations?
·6· · · · A.· ·I believe so.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how so?
·8· · · · A.· ·If in fact those are the ones that I had
·9· · on hand, they would have been for the Beretta I had
10· · tried to prepare and failed to prepare originally
11· · for the homicide.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I believe you indicated that
13· · that came from your father, correct, the Beretta?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes, it belonged to my father.
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-38.
21· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what those are?
22· · · · A.· ·Those look to be .40 caliber ammunition.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· And PPP-39, which is number
YVer1f
·1· · 5.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us what those are?
·6· · · · A.· ·.40 caliber ammunition.
·7· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-41, which is --
12· · · · A.· ·Looks to be part of the barrel of the SKS.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, is this -- was the SKS
14· · one of the weapons that you attempted to destroy or
15· · cut up?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And did you put that in the buckets?
18· · · · A.· ·I did.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· PPP-42.
23· · · · Q.· ·Do you recognize that?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f

·2· · · · A.· ·That is the same item, which you had just
·3· · showed, but cleaner.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, to your knowledge, did all
·5· · parts and pieces of the SKS go into those buckets?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·What about the stock?
·8· · · · A.· ·I believe I cut it all up and put it all
·9· · in.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Are you going to be much
12· · longer with this witness?· I'm just looking at the
13· · time.· It's 12:35.
14· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It would be a good time for a
15· · break, Your Honor.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· My watch says 12:31.· We will
17· · be in recess until a quarter until 2:00.· Well,
18· · about an hour and 15 minutes, ladies and gentlemen.
19· · · · · · ·While you're on break you're not to
20· · discuss the case among yourselves or with anyone
21· · else.· You're not to permit this case to be
22· · discussed with you by anyone or in your presence by
23· · anyone.· You're not to form or express an opinion
24· · concerning the case until it's finally submitted to
YVer1f
·1· · you for deliberation and verdict.· You're to do no

·2· · research at all concerning the facts or the law of
·3· · the case from any source at all.· You're not to
·4· · read, view, or listen to any reports or accounts of
·5· · the case from any source at all and to have no
·6· · contacts at all with any of the participants in the
·7· · case including parties, counsel, or witnesses.
·8· · · · · · ·Does counsel for either side have anything
·9· · further at this time before we recess for our
10· · recess?
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No, Your Honor.· Thank you.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are in recess then until 15
13· · until 2:00.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Counsel for both sides ready
17· · for the jury?
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We're ready, Jason.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is the State ready to resume
23· · questioning of the witness?
YVer1f

·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The State may question.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Jake, I'm going to show you two different
·7· · items.· The first one is -- has been previously
·8· · marked as State's Exhibit C-288B.
·9· · · · · · ·If you could, just look at that and tell
10· · me if you recognize that.
11· · · · A.· ·I do.
13· · · · A.· ·That is the -- this is the first -- well,
14· · really only paperwork I had typed out for me and
15· · Hanna's custody paperwork for Sophia.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was that something you
17· · personally typed or somebody else typed it?
18· · · · A.· ·I did.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· And then State's Exhibit UUU.
21· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit UUU was marked for
24· · · · Q.· ·If you can tell me if you recognize that
YVer1f
·1· · photo?
·2· · · · A.· ·I do.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us where that is taken?
·4· · · · A.· ·At the Peterson house.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know when that was
·6· · taken?
·7· · · · A.· ·Considering the length of my hair, I would
·8· · say sometime after the homicides.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is there anything else on your
10· · body that makes you know that that was after the
11· · homicides, that you can see in that picture?
12· · · · A.· ·My tattoo.
13· · · · Q.· ·And that was something you got after the
14· · homicides?
15· · · · A.· ·I got the -- I got that tattoo in three
16· · parts.· At least one part of it was after the
17· · homicide, yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So as it appears in that picture?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Is that correct?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·But that's when you were -- after the
23· · homicides but at Peterson but before you went to
24· · Alaska; is that fair?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And since I did not show that to
·3· · the jury, can you tell us who all was in that
·4· · picture?
·5· · · · A.· ·Did you say something?
·6· · · · Q.· ·No.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Was there an objection?
·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm hearing things.
·9· · · · · · ·My father, my mother, my brother, myself,
10· · my daughter and my nephew.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us how old your
13· · daughter was at the time of the homicides?
14· · · · A.· ·About two and a half.
15· · · · Q.· ·And I think you alluded to this yesterday,
16· · but was there a time when you had asked for Hanna
17· · to spy on Tabitha or provide you information about
18· · Tabitha?
19· · · · A.· ·I don't believe you asked that yesterday.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · A.· ·But, yes, I did.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically what kind of
23· · information were you hoping to get regarding
24· · Tabitha?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I think you could -- well, I think I could

·2· · have described it as incriminating or at least
·3· · endangering.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you want
·5· · incriminating -- any incriminating information that
·6· · you had about Tabitha?
·7· · · · A.· ·I had asked her to provide -- if she could
·8· · provide or obtain, whatever word you want to use,
·9· · the incriminating or endangering behavior type
10· · information so that she would have a less likely
11· · chance at court if she had decided to seek full
12· · custody of Bulvine.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· We talked about the fact that you
14· · sat down with the State and told us what happened,
15· · and what the agreement was as far as what would
16· · happen to your charges, and then also what would
17· · happen to the charges against your family members
18· · should you decide to appear and testify in their
19· · cases; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to show you what has been
22· · marked as TTT-1.
23· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit TTT-1 was marked for
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·And first of all, just, if you could, look
·3· · at that and see if -- tell me if you recognize that
·4· · and if you see your signature on that document?
·5· · · · A.· ·Well, yes, this is my -- what do you call
·6· · it?· Indictment charges.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If you could, tell us what the
·8· · title of the document is.
·9· · · · A.· ·Oh, I'm sorry.· This is my plea agreement,
10· · yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And specifically, what type of plea?
12· · · · A.· ·Guilty.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I'm going to refer you to --
14· · well, you tell me first what is your understanding
15· · of what sentence you are going to receive in this
16· · case?
17· · · · A.· ·I cannot remember the total number, but
18· · something like eight life sentences of some sort.
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'm sorry, Judge, I couldn't
20· · hear the answer.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What is that?
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I couldn't hear the answer.
23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It was something of the sort
24· · of eight life sentences.
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I'm going to refer you to this
·3· · paragraph on page 3.· If you could, just read that
·4· · and tell us what --
·5· · · · A.· ·Are you talking about the bottom or the --
·6· · which one are you referring to?· This whole thing?
·7· · · · Q.· ·This paragraph here.
·8· · · · A.· ·You want me to read this out loud?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Yes, please.
10· · · · A.· ·The document states:· I understand that
11· · the above-stated sentences could be run coherent or
12· · consecutive to one another such that the maximum
13· · penalty could be a maximum basis -- basic sentence
14· · -- sorry -- basic prison term of eight consecutive
15· · sentences of life without possibility of parole,
16· · plus an additional maximum prison sentence of
17· · 66 years plus 91 -- 192 months totaling 82 years
18· · for underlying offenses, plus a potential
19· · additional mandatory prison term of 78 years the
20· · firearm suppressor specifications of -- for a grand
21· · total of maximum eight consecutive sentences with
22· · life without parole plus an additional maximum of
23· · 144 years plus 192 months of 160 years in prison of
24· · which life without parole sentences, plus 78 years
YVer1f
·1· · of mandatory -- during which I am not eligible for

·2· · judicial release or community control.· The maximum
·3· · potential fine possible is $370,000 restitution and
·4· · other financial costs such as court costs are
·5· · possible in my case.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·7· · · · · · ·So bottom line is eight consecutive life
·8· · without parole sentences; correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And then an additional 160 years, 78 of
11· · which are mandatory?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And I believe at the time of your plea in
14· · court did the judge ask of you if you understood
15· · that this meant that you will die in prison?
16· · · · A.· ·With the assumption, yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Life without parole means you cannot get
18· · out of prison?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And did you enter pleas in this case to
21· · all eight counts of the aggravated murder?
22· · · · A.· ·I did.
23· · · · Q.· ·And did you enter pleas of guilt to all
24· · four counts of aggravated burglary?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I did.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And did you plead guilty to the conspiracy
·3· · count?
·4· · · · A.· ·I did.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And did you plead guilty to the unlawful
·6· · possession of dangerous ordinance in regard to the
·7· · silencer?
·8· · · · A.· ·I did.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And did you plead guilty of three counts
10· · to tampering with evidence?
11· · · · A.· ·I did.
12· · · · Q.· ·Did you plead guilty to forgery?
13· · · · A.· ·I did.
14· · · · Q.· ·And also to unauthorized use of property?
15· · · · A.· ·I did.
16· · · · Q.· ·And also to interception of wire, oral, or
17· · electronic communications?
18· · · · A.· ·I did.
19· · · · Q.· ·And also to obstructing justice?
20· · · · A.· ·I also did.
21· · · · Q.· ·And also to engaging in a pattern of
22· · corrupt activity?
23· · · · A.· ·I did.
24· · · · Q.· ·And also to unlawful sexual conduct with a
YVer1f
·1· · minor?
·2· · · · A.· ·I did.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So basically you pled guilty to all
·4· · of the counts in the indictment, the only thing
·5· · that was dismissed were the death specifications;
·6· · correct?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And just by way of clarification,
·9· · you pled guilty to all eight aggravated murders,
10· · even though you indicated that you only personally
11· · killed five of those eight individuals; correct?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you also pled guilty to all four of
14· · the aggravated burglaries even though you did not
15· · enter into Kenneth's property; correct?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, for instance, the interception
18· · of wire, oral or electronic communications is in
19· · reference to the hacking of the Facebook account of
20· · Tabitha and her mother.· Did you personally do
21· · that?
22· · · · A.· ·I believe I monitored once or twice, yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And in regard to the conspiracy, did that
24· · count include conspiring with your brother, father,
YVer1f
·1· · and mother in regard to the murders?

·2· · · · A.· ·As I understood it, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And same question for the engaging
·4· · in the pattern of corrupt activity.· Was that also
·5· · with your mother, father, and brother?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Was there also a document that you signed
·8· · at the time you sat down with the State and before
·9· · you gave us your statement?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · · · ·(State's Exhibit TTT-2 was thereupon
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to hand you what has been
15· · marked as TTT-2, an eight-page document.
16· · · · · · ·And if you could go ahead and look through
17· · that and let me know if your signature appears on
18· · the final page of that document.
19· · · · A.· ·Your question was about signature;
20· · correct?
21· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· First, do you recognize that
22· · document?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And does your signature appear on the last
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·1· · page of that document?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And is this the agreement that you signed
·4· · with the State, specifically myself, Mr. Junk, and
·5· · Mr. Wilson, along with your attorneys at that time,
·6· · Mr. Meyers and Mr. Mooney?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And referring you to page 1 of that,
·9· · paragraph 1 -- do you see where I'm at?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Part of that paragraph says "It is the
12· · intent of the parties to bring finality to these
13· · matters by way of the defendant accepting
14· · responsibility for the homicides at issue."
15· · · · · · ·Do you see where it says that?
16· · · · A.· ·Oh, I see it.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then on page 2, the very bottom
18· · of that page, paragraph 5 --
19· · · · A.· ·Yep.
20· · · · Q.· ·-- it says the defendant agrees to provide
21· · truthful, complete, and accurate information during
22· · the investigation and prosecution of any criminal
23· · offenses of which he has relevant information,
24· · including, but not limited to, a full account of
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·1· · the events leading up to and including the

·2· · commission of the homicides of Chris Rhoden Senior,
·3· · Gary Rhoden, Clarence Frankie Rhoden, Hannah
·4· · Gilley, Dana Rhoden, Hanna Rhoden, Christopher
·5· · Rhoden Junior on or about April 22nd of 2016, and
·6· · providing the State and the Bureau of Criminal
·7· · Identification and Investigation the location of
·8· · any remaining physical or other evidence which is
·9· · capable of being recovered.
10· · · · · · ·Do you recall agreeing to that?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And did you, in fact, lead us to remaining
13· · physical and other evidence?
14· · · · A.· ·I did.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Paragraph 6 says the defendant
16· · agrees to testify truthfully, completely, and
17· · accurately in any legal proceeding related to the
18· · Rhoden family homicides that he is called to
19· · testify as a witness, including, but not limited
20· · to, any juvenile proceeding, grand jury or trial,
21· · whether civil or criminal in nature.
22· · · · · · ·Do you remember agreeing to that?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And then paragraph 7 goes on to say that
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·1· · specifically, in addition to what has already been

·2· · stated in this agreement the defendant agrees to
·3· · testify truthfully in any and all trials concerning
·4· · the homicides of the Rhoden family, which we had
·5· · earlier identified as those eight names that I
·6· · listed, on or about April 22, 2016, including, but
·7· · not limited to, trial currently pending against the
·8· · following individuals, and then your brother,
·9· · George Washington Wagner IV; your mother, Angela Jo
10· · Wagner; and your father, George Washington
11· · Wagner, III.
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then paragraph 8 indicates that
15· · in exchange for and in consideration of the
16· · aforementioned cooperation, the State of Ohio
17· · agrees to resolve the defendant's pending case in
18· · the following manner; that we would dismiss the
19· · death penalty specification from the eight
20· · aggravated murder charges and that you would admit
21· · guilt and enter a plea of guilt to all of the
22· · remaining counts and specifications in the
23· · indictment, specifically Counts 1 through 23 of the
24· · indictment, and all of the remaining specifications
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·1· · to those counts.

·2· · · · · · ·Do you remember that?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· It goes on to say that the
·5· · defendant further agrees to a recommendation of
·6· · sentences of life without parole to be served
·7· · consecutively as to the first eight counts in the
·8· · indictment; to wit, eight counts of aggravated
·9· · murder.
10· · · · · · ·Do you remember agreeing to that?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Paragraph 9 says in addition to the
13· · above and in consideration of the defendant's
14· · agreement to provide truthful testimony in the
15· · trials of each of his codefendants, specifically
16· · George Washington Wagner, IV; Angela Jo Wagner; and
17· · George Washington Wagner, III, the State also
18· · agrees to dismiss the death penalty specification
19· · for each of those defendants, and then it lists the
20· · specification numbers which correspond to the death
21· · specification.
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Paragraph 10 says the defendant further
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·1· · states that he has been promised nothing in

·2· · addition to that which is stated herein and that
·3· · this document fully incorporates the complete
·4· · understanding of the parties.
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then the document goes on to
·7· · say in paragraph 11 that should you -- if you
·8· · testify falsely or intentionally give false,
·9· · misleading, or incomplete information or testimony,
10· · compromise your value as a witness, or other ways
11· · violate any terms of the agreement, then all of the
12· · original charges that were initially pending
13· · against you would be reinstated and that we could
14· · admit the contents of your statement to us against
15· · you in a trial.
16· · · · · · ·I just paraphrased that.
17· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·But do you recall agreeing to that?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, additionally, that the death
21· · specifications against your family members would
22· · also be reinstated if you failed to appear and
23· · provide truthful testimony?
24· · · · A.· ·Right.· Yes.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Paragraph 19, which is on page 7 --

·2· · · · A.· ·Which paragraph?
·3· · · · Q.· ·19.
·4· · · · A.· ·19.· Okay.
·5· · · · Q.· ·-- indicates that you are entering this
·6· · agreement knowingly, intelligently, and voluntarily
·7· · and are doing so after consulting with and
·8· · accepting the advice of your undersigned attorneys,
·9· · and that you further acknowledge that you are
10· · satisfied with the representation and advice that
11· · you received from your attorneys.
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you agree with that
14· · statement?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you tell us -- if you don't
17· · remember, on page 8 it's indicated -- what date did
18· · you sign that agreement?
19· · · · A.· ·It's April 17th, 2021.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you sat down with the State in
21· · this case, do you recall asking if we were going to
22· · record your statement?
23· · · · A.· ·I did.
24· · · · Q.· ·And did you want us to record your
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·1· · statement?
·2· · · · A.· ·I did.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And why did you want us to record your
·4· · statement?
·5· · · · A.· ·Well, for a couple reasons, actually.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·7· · · · A.· ·One was so you couldn't say I said
·8· · something I didn't, and, two, was so eventually it
·9· · could be given to my codefendants.
10· · · · Q.· ·And your codefendants specifically being
11· · who?
12· · · · A.· ·My mother, father, and brother.
13· · · · Q.· ·And why did you want them to have your
14· · recorded statement?
15· · · · A.· ·I wanted them to know the reasons why I
16· · was cooperating with you.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you explain during the time
18· · you sat down with us why you had come forward?
19· · · · A.· ·I did.
20· · · · Q.· ·And did you tell us then about the things
21· · you already said as far as Rita pleading and then
22· · you had prayed to God and wanted a sign, and
23· · considered her plea a sign?
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·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis is?

·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Prior consistent statement,
·5· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Can we approach?
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, once again, they're
11· · trying to get into prior consistent statement,
12· · which is improper and the evidence --
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I was just asking why he
14· · wanted them to.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Why?· But it also sounds like
16· · you were leading him to say something.· I'll
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Okay.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The objection to the last
23· · question will be sustained.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·In addition to the -- some of the things

·2· · that we've talked about there in the -- that's
·3· · written in the agreement, did you also ask of the
·4· · State one other thing regarding your codefendants?
·5· · · · A.· ·I did.
·7· · · · A.· ·I had told you that in addition to the
·8· · plea agreement, if at all possible, I wanted a,
·9· · per se, one last family moment, X amount of time
10· · together with my mother, father and -- mother,
11· · father and brother, if they were convicted.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And before you went to prison?
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· A little
14· · bit leading.
16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Jake, when you and your father and
19· · brother went up to Union Hill Road that night and
20· · then out to Left Fork Road, did all four of you --
21· · your mother, father, brother and yourself -- know
22· · what was going to happen?
23· · · · · · ·Let me ask that differently.
24· · · · A.· ·Okay.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·Did all four of you know that the intent
·2· · was to kill Chris, Dana, Frankie, Hanna, and
·3· · Kenneth, and then anybody else who was present?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And had all four of you, in one way
·6· · or another, helped in preparation leading up to the
·8· · · · A.· ·To certain extents, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And all of you, except for your
10· · mother, went up to Union Hill Road that night and
11· · Left Fork Road; correct?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And your children stayed back with your
14· · mother at Peterson Road; correct?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And, afterwards, did all four of you
17· · participate in covering up the crimes?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.· To a certain extent, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, you pled guilty to all
20· · eight counts of aggravated murder, even though,
21· · again, you did not personally kill all eight.
22· · · · · · ·Why did you plead guilty to all of them?
23· · · · A.· ·Well, I guess the easiest way to say that
24· · would be I just -- what's the word?· I just took it
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·1· · all, I reckon, is a good word to use it.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You participated in one way or
·3· · another in regards to the other three individuals;
·4· · is that fair to say?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And same thing for the aggravated
·7· · burglary?· You drove to Kenneth's, you just didn't
·8· · enter the residence; correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Jake, we've been talking about your
11· · brother.· And if you could just tell us, is your
12· · brother George Wagner present in the courtroom?
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We'll stipulate he can
14· · identify his brother, Your Honor.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· The -- you're
16· · stipulating that the witness here has identified
17· · the defendant as his brother George Washington
18· · Wagner, IV?· Is that what you're doing?
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· The Court -- the
21· · jury shall accept that stipulation as fully as if
22· · it -- as a matter of fact, as fully as if it had
23· · been established through testimony here in the
24· · courtroom.
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·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I have no other questions,

·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The defense may cross-examine.
·5· · · · · · · · · · ·CROSS-EXAMINATION
·6· · BY MR. PARKER:
·7· · · · Q.· ·Good afternoon, Mr. Wagner.· How are you?
·8· · · · A.· ·I'm doing fine.· How are you today?
·9· · · · Q.· ·I'm good.· Thank you.
10· · · · · · ·My name's John Parker.· I'm one of the
11· · attorneys for your brother George.
12· · · · · · ·I don't believe we've met before, have we?
13· · · · A.· ·No.· I actually thought you was Mr. Nash.
14· · · · Q.· ·No.· I'm John Parker.· Mr. Nash is the
15· · good-looking guy at the table.
16· · · · A.· ·My apologies.· I had you mixed up.
17· · · · Q.· ·That's why we ask questions.· We don't
18· · want any confusion.
19· · · · · · ·So I want to ask you a few questions.· If
20· · you don't understand something, please say so and I
21· · will try to clarify.
22· · · · · · ·If you do not hear me, please say so.
23· · I'll speak in a louder voice.
24· · · · · · ·As I understand it, you have problems
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·1· · hearing; is that right?

·2· · · · A.· ·I do.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And you're wearing glasses today.
·4· · · · · · ·Do you have problems seeing?
·5· · · · A.· ·Without the glasses, I do.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Without the glasses.· That's why you're
·7· · wearing them, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Correct.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Do you have any other health
10· · issues?
11· · · · A.· ·That would affect the communication?
12· · · · Q.· ·Let me start there.
13· · · · · · ·Do you have any health issues that would
14· · affect your communication?
15· · · · A.· ·No.· Other than that, no.
16· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any other health issues in
17· · general?
18· · · · A.· ·Would you --
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, I would object as
20· · to relevance.· It doesn't affect his ability to
21· · testify.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll overrule the
23· · objection.
24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Do you mean in general or
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·1· · full sway?· What exactly are you wanting to know?

·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any mental health problems?
·4· · · · A.· ·I believe ADD qualifies, correct?
·5· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by ADD?
·6· · · · A.· ·Attention deficit disorder.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You have that?
·8· · · · A.· ·Not diagnosed.· Self-diagnosed.· Some of
·9· · the health people at the jail say I do.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
11· · · · A.· ·It's not been diagnosed yet.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Are you on any medication?
13· · · · A.· ·For that or for general?
14· · · · Q.· ·Well, let's start with that.
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Are you on other types of
17· · medication?
18· · · · A.· ·I am.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Do you mind telling us?
20· · · · A.· ·I'm not completely sure of the names of
21· · some of them, but I can tell you what they're for.
22· · · · Q.· ·That's fine.
23· · · · A.· ·Currently I'm on two allergy medications,
24· · one multivitamin, something for my thyroid and an
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·1· · antidepressant antianxiety.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you've been diagnosed with
·3· · depression?
·4· · · · A.· ·Not necessarily.· Mostly insomnia.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Mostly insomnia.
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· If I could approach, Judge,
·7· · and get these documents.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Jake, you just testified about this
11· · document.· Let's talk about it.· It's State's
12· · Exhibit TTT -- I can't tell if that's a 2 or 7 --
13· · but it's your plea agreement and sentencing
14· · agreement; correct?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And this was negotiated on your behalf by
17· · your attorneys; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Do you realize you just got
20· · the greatest plea bargain in the history of Ohio?
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Objection.
22· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· False statement.
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Mr. Parker's opinion.

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, all right.· It sounds
·3· · like -- well, I'm going to sustain the objection.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Well, let's talk about your plea bargain
·6· · there, Jake.
·7· · · · · · ·You pled guilty to killing the mother of
·8· · your child; correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And you snuck into her house in the middle
11· · of the night; correct?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·You went into the bedroom and shot her in
14· · the back of the head twice?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·You did not?
17· · · · A.· ·No, I did not.
18· · · · Q.· ·What did you do?
19· · · · A.· ·I went in her room and shot her in the
20· · front of the head.
21· · · · Q.· ·In the front of the head.· Okay.
22· · · · · · ·And then you also, in the same house, shot
23· · her mother as she laid in bed looking at Facebook;
24· · is that right?
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·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And you shot her in the head multiple
·3· · times; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·I remember once in the neck and once in
·5· · the head.
·6· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then you went across the
·7· · home and went into Little Chris's room, which was
·8· · Dana's son, Hanna's brother, and you shot him in
·9· · the back of the head multiple times as he lay
10· · asleep in his bed?· You did that?
11· · · · A.· ·No.
12· · · · Q.· ·You did not?
13· · · · A.· ·Not how you described it, no.
14· · · · Q.· ·How would you describe it?
15· · · · A.· ·Everything you said is correct, but it was
16· · not the back of the head; it was the side of the
17· · head.
18· · · · Q.· ·The side of the head.· Okay.
19· · · · · · ·And before you had done that, you had been
20· · in Frankie's house down Union Hill Road, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you crawled through the
23· · window -- I think you told the State you slithered
24· · through the window.· Do you remember that?
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·1· · · · A.· ·I think I did use that word, yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You slithered through the back open window
·3· · into his home, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·In the middle of the night?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And you walked into his bedroom and you
·8· · found him laying in bed sleeping with his
·9· · girlfriend Hannah Hazel Gilley; correct?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And then you leaned over with your .22
12· · with the silencer and shot him multiple times in
13· · the head; correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And you did the same thing with Hannah
16· · Hazel Gilley, right?· You shot her right in the
17· · eye?
18· · · · A.· ·I don't remember that part.
19· · · · Q.· ·You don't remember that part.
20· · · · · · ·And they had a little baby laying right
21· · between them, but you didn't notice the baby,
22· · right?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·And before that, you had prepared for this
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·1· · murder spree by taking this truck -- you and your

·2· · father, you took this truck up to Union Hill Road
·3· · and you laid underneath it like a sniper -- is that
·4· · what you're telling us? -- with the SKS rifle and
·5· · you shot Chris Senior?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you shot him with that
·8· · high-powered rifle as he stood in his doorway,
·9· · right?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And your intention was to kill him, right?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you considered him a second father; is
14· · that correct?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And that's how you treated your second
17· · father?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And previously that's how you considered
20· · Dana, a mother figure to you, did you not?
22· · · · Q.· ·For the most part.
23· · · · · · ·And you shot her in the head up the road
24· · here, right?
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·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And you shot the mother of your only
·3· · child, as you described, in the front of the head,
·4· · right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And after you shot Chris with that
·7· · high-powered rifle, you went into that house and
·8· · you shot Gary too with the .40; is that right?
·9· · · · A.· ·I did not, no.
10· · · · Q.· ·You did not.
11· · · · · · ·Your father shot the .40?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And he was hysterical, I think
14· · you said?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And so what did you do to calm him down?
17· · · · A.· ·I can't remember the specific words and
18· · quote, but I basically told him that it was too
19· · late to back out, similar words of such a sort.
20· · · · Q.· ·How many shots did you hear him fire?
21· · · · A.· ·Two.
22· · · · Q.· ·Two shots.
23· · · · · · ·Did you know that Gary had multiple
24· · .40-shot wounds in his head?
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·1· · · · · · ·Did you know that?

·2· · · · A.· ·I have been informed, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Your lawyers went over all this
·4· · evidence with you, didn't they?
·5· · · · A.· ·That particular information was provided
·6· · to me through the State.
·7· · · · Q.· ·The State provided that information to
·8· · you.
·9· · · · · · ·Did the State also tell you that Chris was
10· · not only shot with that high-powered rifle that you
11· · fired, but he also had multiple .40-shot wounds to
12· · the head?
13· · · · · · ·Did you know that?
14· · · · A.· ·I was informed that there was other
15· · gunshot wounds besides the .30 caliber, but I
16· · was -- but if I was informed on the multiple, I
17· · don't remember.
18· · · · Q.· ·You don't remember?
19· · · · · · ·But you only heard two shots, other than
20· · the ones you fired from the SKS; is that right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And I suppose it was just a coincidence
23· · that Gary was shot multiple times in the head,
24· · Chris was shot multiple times in the head, Frankie
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·1· · was shot multiple times in the head, Hannah Hazel

·2· · Gilley was shot multiple times in the head, Dana
·3· · was shot multiple times in the head, Little Chris
·4· · was shot multiple times in the head, Hanna was shot
·5· · twice in the head?
·6· · · · · · ·That's just a coincidence?
·7· · · · A.· ·I cannot explain that.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You can't explain it, but you did all of
·9· · those killings, didn't you?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·You don't -- and you also went to Ken's
12· · and shot hit right in the eye; isn't that true?
13· · · · A.· ·I did not, no.
14· · · · Q.· ·So it's just a coincidence that he was
15· · shot right in the eye, just like Hannah Hazel
16· · Gilley was shot right in the eye?
17· · · · · · ·That's a coincidence?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And it's also a coincidence that Frankie
20· · was shot just below the eye?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And you are not facing the death penalty.
23· · You don't consider that the greatest plea bargain
24· · in the history of Ohio?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I was not aware of the greatest plea

·2· · bargain in the history of the Ohio, no.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Well, you certainly got a good one, didn't
·4· · you?
·5· · · · A.· ·I have been told, yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, you know that, right?
·7· · · · · · ·You don't need to be told; you know that
·8· · you were facing the death penalty for killing eight
·9· · absolutely innocent people after sneaking in their
10· · homes in the middle of the night, and, yet, you're
11· · not facing the death, but your brother is.
12· · · · · · ·He didn't fire a shot, did he?
13· · · · A.· ·No.
14· · · · Q.· ·Now, part of your agreement is to tell the
15· · truth, right?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·To give complete answers; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you sat down with the prosecutors
20· · sitting here at the table, your lawyers, back in
21· · April of '21; correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·You signed these documents to tell
24· · everything like it was; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember telling them none of us
·3· · wanted to do it; I felt we had to do it?
·4· · · · A.· ·I did.
·5· · · · Q.· ·I had to talk George and Mom sort of into
·6· · it, but not -- they never agreed reluctantly -- or
·7· · what's the word I'm looking for?· They never agreed
·8· · to do it, but I guess the way I'm saying is it's
·9· · not like I say George or Mom at different times or
10· · whatnot that I'm going to go up there and me and
11· · Dad's going to kill Hanna and X amount of people,
12· · whatnot.· It's not like they're going to say no,
13· · you're not and call 911 and say we've got to
14· · prevent this murder.
15· · · · · · ·Do you remember that?
16· · · · A.· ·I do.
17· · · · Q.· ·It's they tried to talk me out of it.· Mom
18· · tried to talk me out of it.· George didn't like the
19· · idea whatsoever.· He thought of Hanna as a sister
20· · and he did not want any part of it at all.
22· · · · A.· ·I do.
23· · · · Q.· ·He said he didn't want me to do it.· It
24· · was a bad idea.· Don't trust Dad.· Similar stuff
YVer1f
·1· · like that.

·3· · · · A.· ·I do.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And that's why he wasn't going to go in
·5· · the first place.
·7· · · · A.· ·I do.
·8· · · · Q.· ·But then he decided to go because he
·9· · was -- he was thinking that Dad was trying to set
10· · me up.
11· · · · · · ·Do you remember -- do you remember that?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
13· · · · Q.· ·And, of course, I didn't think that people
14· · wasn't going to die, but somehow or another it's
15· · possible that everybody was going to die, including
16· · me and Dad somehow, so I don't know.
18· · · · A.· ·I do.
19· · · · Q.· ·But that was the notion as to why George
20· · went.
22· · · · A.· ·I do.
23· · · · Q.· ·So George went to protect you from your
24· · father; is that true?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·It is.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And he never intended to kill anybody;
·3· · isn't that true?
·4· · · · A.· ·That is -- well, I mean, I can't speak for
·5· · him, but, to my understanding, that is true.
·6· · · · Q.· ·He thought at the end of the murder spree
·7· · that you and your dad planned --
·8· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, I'm going --
10· · · · Q.· ·-- you --
11· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· -- to object.
12· · BY MR. PARKER:
13· · · · Q.· ·-- thought you were going to be killed by
14· · your father?
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I'm going to object to what
16· · George thought.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll sustain that
18· · objection.· You can say what he observed or what
19· · the other parties said or something like that, but
20· · not what he was thinking.
22· · · · Q.· ·It was your understanding that you feared
23· · for your life from your father at the end of this;
24· · correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·That I feared?

·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· You thought your father might kill
·3· · you at the end of this murder spree?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You did not think that?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·But you and your father planned this
·8· · alone; correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·Not entirely, no.
10· · · · Q.· ·Well, your father came with you -- I'm
11· · sorry -- came to you with the idea to kill Hanna?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Is that right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And at first you said no; is that right?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Because you didn't like that idea, did
18· · you?
19· · · · A.· ·I did not.
20· · · · Q.· ·And he wanted -- do you know why he wanted
21· · you to kill Hanna?
22· · · · A.· ·Sorry.· Can you say that again?
23· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Do you know why your dad wanted you
24· · to kill Hanna?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Why?· Why did he want you --
·3· · · · A.· ·Because he feared for my daughter in the
·4· · same way I did.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And that was for her safety; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You thought that your daughter was going
·8· · to be sexually molested by Hanna or somebody in her
·9· · family; is that correct?
10· · · · A.· ·Not Hanna.
11· · · · Q.· ·Not Hanna herself, but someone in her
12· · family?
13· · · · A.· ·Not necessarily in family, but somebody.
14· · · · Q.· ·Well, one of her boyfriends?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·You were -- she -- Hanna liked to party a
17· · little bit; is that fair to say?
18· · · · A.· ·I learned of such behavior, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·You didn't approve of such behavior;
20· · correct?
21· · · · A.· ·For the most part, no.
22· · · · Q.· ·You were a good Christian, right?
23· · · · A.· ·I thought I was.
24· · · · Q.· ·You thought you were.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·But it was when you confronted Hanna, with

·2· · your fear of your daughter being sexually molested,
·3· · that's when you decided to kill her; is that right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Because of her response, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Because of her response to your concern.
·6· · What was her response?
·7· · · · A.· ·She had said if it happened, we would just
·8· · have to deal with it.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And for you that meant what?
10· · · · A.· ·That meant she would not take the
11· · appropriate cautions that a parent should take
12· · between protecting their child.
13· · · · Q.· ·So you decided because you feared that she
14· · wasn't going to be a good enough parent that she
15· · needed to be killed?
16· · · · A.· ·I feared that I had -- considering my
17· · lifestyle and her knowledge, I didn't have another
18· · option.
19· · · · Q.· ·You didn't have another option?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Could you have filed for full custody,
22· · explaining to a judge that you feared your daughter
23· · was going to be molested, and gotten full custody
24· · that way?
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Could you have done that?

·2· · · · A.· ·I could have done that.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Instead of killing her.
·4· · · · A.· ·I could have.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Could you have gone to her father, your
·6· · second father, and explained to him what your fears
·7· · were?
·8· · · · · · ·Could you have done that?
·9· · · · A.· ·I believe my own father made that clear to
10· · him.
11· · · · Q.· ·Well, could you have gone and talked to
12· · him?
13· · · · · · ·You and Chris were -- you were friendly
14· · towards each other, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Um-hum.· Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·You had worked together, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·You'd spent time at his house up on Union
19· · Hill Road, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·You helped him build that big new barn on
22· · his property, right?
23· · · · A.· ·To a small extent, yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You had worked with him
YVer1f
·1· · rehabbing a house somewhere, maybe in Piketon or

·2· · somewhere like that, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·I did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·So you could go and talk to him about his
·5· · daughter's raising of your child.· You felt
·6· · comfortable enough to broach that topic, didn't
·7· · you?
·8· · · · A.· ·I could have.
·9· · · · Q.· ·So you couldn't do that.· You couldn't
10· · file in court.
11· · · · · · ·Could you maybe have talked to Dana about
12· · the situation?
13· · · · A.· ·At that time Dana had a poor opinion of
14· · me.
15· · · · Q.· ·Had?
16· · · · A.· ·A poor opinion of me.
17· · · · Q.· ·So because of her poor opinion of you, you
18· · didn't feel you could talk to her?
19· · · · A.· ·I knew I could talk to her, but I did not
20· · feel she would listen to me.
21· · · · Q.· ·Would she fear for the safety of her
22· · granddaughter?
23· · · · A.· ·Again, considering -- how do I put this?
24· · By making the suggestion, I would not have gotten a
YVer1f
·1· · good response.

·2· · · · Q.· ·So you killed her?· That's your response.
·3· · · · A.· ·Again, I felt I had no other option.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You had no other option.
·5· · · · · · ·Now, when your dad first came to you and
·6· · said that Hanna had to be killed, you had a
·7· · different plan in mind -- correct? -- other than
·8· · the one you carried out?
·9· · · · A.· ·I did.
10· · · · Q.· ·And that plan was to strangle Hanna; is
11· · that right?
12· · · · A.· ·I can't remember exactly what I suggested,
13· · but along the lines of something similar, yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And to blame it on her boyfriend at the
15· · time, Corey; is that right?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And then kill Corey to make it look like
18· · Corey killed her and then committed suicide?
19· · · · · · ·That was your brilliant plan; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And your dad said no to that?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·But that was your original plan?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·So your plan B was to kill Hanna and all
·2· · the other victims?
·3· · · · A.· ·Technically, that was his suggestion, but
·4· · yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You went along with it, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You're the one that pulled the trigger,
·8· · right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Let's talk about a few other things, Jake.
11· · · · · · ·May I call you Jake?
12· · · · A.· ·You may.
13· · · · Q.· ·There's been some testimony, including
14· · yours, about how you dyed your hair sometime before
15· · the murders; correct?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·That had nothing to do with the murders
18· · themselves, did it?
19· · · · A.· ·Correct.
20· · · · Q.· ·And you told the State that when you
21· · talked to them last year; correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Several times.
23· · · · Q.· ·And there's been some talk about The
24· · Walking Dead movie, and you were a fan of The
YVer1f
·1· · Walking Dead, right?

·2· · · · A.· ·I was.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And that had nothing to do with these
·4· · murders; is that right?
·5· · · · A.· ·That's true.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And you told the State that last year; is
·7· · that right?
·8· · · · A.· ·I did.
·9· · · · Q.· ·In talking about options other than
10· · killing all these people, you told the State that
11· · you thought about taking Sophia and going to Mexico
12· · and disappearing into the jungle with her.· Is that
13· · one of the things you talked about?
14· · · · A.· ·I did.
15· · · · Q.· ·Now, you'd talked to a lawyer on more than
16· · one occasion about your various problems concerning
17· · Sophia; is that right?
18· · · · A.· ·I did.
19· · · · Q.· ·You didn't think about going back to the
20· · lawyer and explaining what your concerns were and
21· · trying to use the legal process at all?
22· · · · A.· ·The possibility crossed my mind, but --
23· · · · Q.· ·Killing them was a better option?
24· · · · A.· ·I wouldn't say a better option.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·That's the option you chose?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And you have described your mother as an
·4· · angel; is that right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Is that your opinion of her today?
·7· · · · A.· ·It is.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And she loved Hanna, didn't she?
·9· · · · A.· ·Very.
10· · · · Q.· ·Yet she helped carry out these murders;
11· · isn't that true?
12· · · · A.· ·The way you just said that, "helped carry
13· · out," can you be more specific on that?
14· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
15· · · · · · ·You told your mom to go buy those shoes at
16· · Walmart, didn't you?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you told her, knowing that you were
19· · going to use them in the murders; is that right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And did your mom know that they were going
22· · to be used in the murder?
23· · · · A.· ·I assumed, yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·That's being part of the murder, isn't it?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·But she tried to talk you out of doing
·3· · these murders; is that right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Because, as you say, she was trying to
·6· · protect you; is that right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And she has always tried to protect you;
·9· · is that right?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And the original plan that you started
12· · with was that you and your dad were going to go in
13· · and out, I think you said.· You and your dad were
14· · going to go in and out and kill these people; is
15· · that right?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And you told the State back last year that
18· · your mother lied to the authorities to cover for
19· · you; is that right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And that your mother was monitoring Tabby,
22· · and that had nothing to do with the murders; is
23· · that right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And your mom wanted to protect Bulvine

·2· · from Tabby's mom and the lifestyle she led; is that
·3· · right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Because you knew and your mom knew that
·6· · Tabby had a very rough childhood, right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·That was not a secret; that was discussed
·9· · in the family, right?
10· · · · A.· ·It was.
11· · · · Q.· ·And there was concern that Bulvine would
12· · be exposed to that type of lifestyle; correct?
13· · · · A.· ·I -- I would use a heavier word than
14· · concern, but yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What word would you use?
16· · · · A.· ·Surely.
17· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?
18· · · · A.· ·Surely.
19· · · · Q.· ·Surely.
20· · · · · · ·You thought he would surely be exposed to
21· · that lifestyle?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And you knew that Tabby had mental health
24· · problems; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·She was bipolar; correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·I did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And what does that mean to you?
·5· · · · A.· ·I'm not -- I'm not sure if my
·6· · understanding of bipolar or however you call it is
·7· · correct, but, to my understanding, it leads to
·8· · irrational impulses for decision-making and split
·9· · personality of some sort.
10· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Is that what you observed with
11· · Tabby as you knew her over the years?
12· · · · A.· ·Among other things, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Now, when Hanna was pregnant with Kylee,
14· · did you know or not that Kylee was not your child?
15· · · · A.· ·I did know.
16· · · · Q.· ·You did know?
17· · · · A.· ·I did know she was not my child.
18· · · · Q.· ·But you acted like you wanted her anyway
19· · as your child; is that correct?
20· · · · A.· ·I did.
21· · · · Q.· ·In fact, you went as far as going to court
22· · and having a DNA test, right?
23· · · · A.· ·I did.
24· · · · Q.· ·So that was nothing but a fraud, wasn't
YVer1f
·1· · it?
·2· · · · A.· ·It was.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And right after the murders, I think it
·4· · was within a week of the murders, you went to
·5· · juvenile court to get custody of Sophia -- right?
·6· · -- with a lawyer, Bruce Daily?
·7· · · · A.· ·I remember going to court.· I remember the
·8· · day after I did call him to tell him about it. I
·9· · do not specifically remember the actual date of
10· · when.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But shortly after the murders,
12· · Bruce Daily was your lawyer; correct?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And you used his legal knowledge and
15· · skills to get custody of Sophia immediately after
16· · the murders; within a week or two after the
17· · murders?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And he had you sign an affidavit about
20· · different things involving Sophia.· Do you remember
21· · that?
22· · · · A.· ·I remember signing various papers, yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·But the bottom line is you went in front
24· · of a juvenile court judge here in Pike County and
YVer1f
·1· · you never disclosed that you had killed Sophia's

·2· · mother and her entire family.
·3· · · · · · ·You never disclosed that, did you?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·That's a little dishonest, isn't it?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to show you some pictures, if I
·8· · can.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· These are the State's
10· · exhibits, the first at least.
11· · · · · · ·NNN-1, just so you know.
13· · · · Q.· ·I'll have you look through this set of
14· · exhibits, Jake, if you would take a moment.
15· · · · · · ·Have you had a chance to look through
16· · those?
17· · · · A.· ·Oh.· I thought you was going to --
18· · · · Q.· ·Do you recognize what's in that set of
19· · photos?
20· · · · A.· ·The first one, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let's take them one at a time, and
22· · if I could move up there because I know you have a
23· · hard time handling things.
24· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·So I'll set them up here so we can both

·2· · see them.
·3· · · · · · ·NNN-1, what do you recognize in that?
·4· · · · A.· ·The vehicle that I had purchased from my
·5· · uncle Todd.
·6· · · · Q.· ·All right.· That's the vehicle that you
·7· · used the night of the murders; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And NNN-2, NNN-3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, those are
10· · all various angles of the same vehicle.· Pictures
11· · of the same vehicle from various angles; correct?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And are you telling the jury
14· · that you constructed a piece of plywood to place
15· · over the bed of that pickup truck for the night of
16· · the murders?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you placed it down inside to where the
19· · eyelets are; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And then you put bales or bundles of hay
22· · on top?
23· · · · A.· ·Bales, yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·How many bales of hay would you say?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Can you give me an estimate?
·3· · · · A.· ·A dozen or so.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you laid in the back of this
·5· · contraption when you left Peterson Road; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And what's it take?· 15, maybe 20 minutes
·8· · to get up to Union Hill Road from Peterson?
·9· · · · A.· ·Roughly, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·So you laid in the back of the truck for
11· · that period of time; correct?
12· · · · A.· ·I'm unsure of the time.
13· · · · Q.· ·Well, the time it takes to get from
14· · Peterson to Union Hill Road, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·You didn't stop along the way or anything,
17· · did you?
18· · · · A.· ·Once, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·You did stop somewhere?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Where did you stop?
22· · · · A.· ·There is a pull-off -- I think that's what
23· · it was.· It was a pull-off.· And my dad stopped one
24· · time and he came back to the tailgate and asked me
YVer1f
·1· · if I was sure I wanted to do this, if now -- if I

·2· · wanted to back out, now's the time to say.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And then you continued up to Union
·4· · Hill Road, right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And do you know what time you left
·7· · Peterson, approximately?
·8· · · · A.· ·Somewhere 9:00-something.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Somewhere around 9:00 o'clock at night?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.· P.M.
11· · · · Q.· ·And then you arrived up at Union Hill.
12· · How long do you remain in the back of that truck
13· · until you get out, approximately?
14· · · · A.· ·10, 15, 20 minutes, something -- something
15· · like that.
16· · · · Q.· ·So what was the total amount of time you
17· · were underneath that piece of plywood with the hay
18· · on top and gate up?
19· · · · · · ·How long were you in there, would you say?
20· · · · A.· ·You're asking total from Peterson when I
21· · got in to the time I got out at Chris Senior's
22· · place?
23· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
24· · · · A.· ·Maybe close to an hour, maybe.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Close to an hour.

·2· · · · · · ·So when you got out of the vehicle at
·3· · Chris's, you had the gun; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·I did.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And is it your testimony you went
·6· · underneath this truck in NNN-1?
·7· · · · A.· ·I did.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And when you went out of the tailgate, did
·9· · you go immediately under?
10· · · · A.· ·No.
11· · · · Q.· ·Did you go to the side?
12· · · · A.· ·To the driver's door, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·To the driver's door.
14· · · · · · ·And then you went underneath?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And so you fired the SKS from underneath
17· · that truck?
18· · · · A.· ·No.
19· · · · Q.· ·Where did you fire the SKS?
20· · · · A.· ·From under the truck parked beside that
21· · one.
22· · · · Q.· ·So you rolled out or -- what did you do?
23· · Did you roll out to the next truck?
24· · · · A.· ·I moved back a little from the tire
YVer1f
·1· · because I was, you know, snuggled up, you know.

·2· · Like, I go under and scoot forward.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·So I scooted back and then I -- then I
·5· · basically went out the same way I went in and then
·6· · rolled over to the other truck.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So which other truck did
·8· · you -- were you under when you fired the SKS?
·9· · · · A.· ·The other vehicle.· The vehicle we was
10· · parked beside at Chris Senior's.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Let's pull up the photos.
13· · State's Exhibit 544.
15· · · · Q.· ·I believe you used this --
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'm going to try to set up
17· · this tripod so the jury can see.
19· · · · Q.· ·State's Exhibit A-544, previously marked.
20· · You recognize this, don't you?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·You looked at this yesterday or the day
23· · before; correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You've probably seen it before then too;

·2· · correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·I'm sure this is one of the pictures your
·5· · lawyers went over with you, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·I think that's one, yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·They went over a lot of evidence with you,
·8· · right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·That's their job, right?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·To understand what you're up against,
13· · right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And, in fact, your lawyers told you you
16· · didn't stand a chance in this case and that's why
17· · you needed to enter --
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor --
20· · · · Q.· ·-- a guilty plea?
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· -- I'm going to object to
22· · anything that his attorneys told him.· That's
24· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Hearsay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, can we approach on

·2· · that?
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· This is -- he said this in
·8· · his proffer as well.· He's waived any
·9· · attorney-client privilege as far as their
10· · communications based on his testimony earlier
11· · today.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That is false.· One question
13· · that he does not answer does not waive his
14· · attorney-client privilege.· It does not matter if
15· · he said that in the proffer, he was still under
16· · attorney-client --
17· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· (Inaudible.)
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· You show me where he said
19· · that.
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We'll move on to another
21· · subject.· We'll deal with this.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· So you want to withdraw that?

·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· If we can reapproach,
·4· · · · · · ·I can rephrase, Judge.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· We'll discuss it further with
·6· · the judge before --
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I can withdraw the
·8· · question and move on.
11· · · · Q.· ·I think we were talking about these
12· · photos; correct?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And this diagram up here, let me return to
15· · that.
16· · · · · · ·Now, this is the A-544, aerial photograph.
17· · · · · · ·You identified this as Chris's place right
18· · here in the middle; correct?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Where did the truck that you
21· · identified in NNN-1, where did that pull up on
22· · this?
23· · · · · · ·Here you can use my pen.· If you need to
24· · step down, I can give you a hand.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·(Indicating.)

·2· · · · Q.· ·Oh, what you're saying -- maybe you can
·3· · resume your seat.· Okay?
·4· · · · · · ·So you're saying that you pulled up --
·5· · there's a red car and another vehicle here.· You
·6· · pulled between those; is that right?
·7· · · · A.· ·I don't remember the two vehicles being
·8· · there.
·9· · · · Q.· ·You don't remember these two vehicles
10· · being there?
11· · · · A.· ·No.
12· · · · Q.· ·But you think that's where you were.
13· · · · · · ·What truck were you laying under or
14· · vehicle were you laying under when you shot the
15· · SKS?
16· · · · A.· ·The silver truck.· Yes, that one.
17· · · · Q.· ·Right here?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·So you were laying under there.
20· · · · · · ·And were you at the front, the middle, the
21· · back?· Where were you?
22· · · · A.· ·I was under the back.
23· · · · Q.· ·You were under the back.
24· · · · · · ·And that's where you fired the gun?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry.· The SKS.
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you hit Chris up here standing in his
·5· · doorway?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·What did you do then?
·8· · · · A.· ·After I -- trying to follow you.· After I
·9· · had shot Chris, I had given the SKS back to George
10· · and then I went inside.· No.· Then I -- that's when
11· · Dad come out and I had calmed him down.
12· · · · Q.· ·So your dad was inside when you fired the
13· · SKS?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·You could have hit your dad?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·You're smiling.· Why are you smiling?
18· · · · A.· ·I have a terrible problem smiling in the
19· · worst situations.· It's got nothing to do with
20· · emotion.
21· · · · Q.· ·Nothing to do with emotion?
22· · · · A.· ·No.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you could have hit your dad,
24· · right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·But you didn't?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·But he was hysterical?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did you do anything between --
·7· · · · · · ·Well, let me ask you this.· Between firing
·8· · the SKS and going into the -- into Chris's home,
·9· · how much time went by about?
10· · · · A.· ·A minute or two.· Two.
11· · · · Q.· ·A minute or two.
12· · · · · · ·So what did you do in that minute or two
13· · time?
14· · · · A.· ·I'm not following.· Can you --
15· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Let me --
16· · · · A.· ·-- explain to me a little plainer?
17· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
18· · · · · · ·I'll try to make it as plain as I can.
19· · · · A.· ·Yes, please.
20· · · · Q.· ·You fired the SKS; correct?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that was the first shot
23· · fired this night; correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·All right.· At what point did you hear

·2· · shots inside?
·3· · · · A.· ·When I fired?
·4· · · · Q.· ·After you shot the SKS.
·5· · · · A.· ·After I was finished firing?
·6· · · · Q.· ·After you were finished?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·That's when you heard shots inside?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·How many?
11· · · · A.· ·Two.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Was there a chair sitting in
13· · the doorway there?
14· · · · A.· ·In the doorway?
15· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Inside the trailer.
16· · · · A.· ·Back against the wall, yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was there someone in that chair?
18· · · · A.· ·Are you asking me if I could see it from
19· · outside or after when I entered?
20· · · · Q.· ·When you entered.· Let's go there.
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes, there was.
22· · · · Q.· ·Who was in the chair?
23· · · · A.· ·Gary Rhoden.
24· · · · Q.· ·He was in the recliner-type chair?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And had he been shot?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And was it you that shot him
·5· · or your dad?
·6· · · · A.· ·I mean, Dad, but I did not see him. I
·7· · could only see Chris when I fired.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But when you go in, you see Gary in
·9· · the chair and he's dead?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And he'd been shot?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·You're clear on that?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And how much time went by
16· · between when you fired the last shot from the SKS
17· · and when you saw Gary in the chair?
18· · · · A.· ·Just a few minutes.
19· · · · Q.· ·A few minutes?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· So from the point of getting up, Dad
21· · had come out, calming him down, and I walk in.
22· · Just -- just a few minutes, yeah.
23· · · · Q.· ·So you had to calm him down before you
24· · went in?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that's what took the
·3· · minute or two or three or four?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And describe how he was acting.
·6· · · · A.· ·I mean, hysterical was the word I used
·7· · before.
·8· · · · · · ·Are you asking me, like, to explain the
·9· · motion, body language?· What are you asking me to
10· · describe?
11· · · · Q.· ·Describe your father's condition the best
12· · you can.
13· · · · A.· ·He had come out, like -- like, a look of
14· · shock on his face.· His hands was on his head, kind
15· · of like -- like if you'd walk into a place and see
16· · a horror.· An "Oh, my God" type thing,
17· · hands-on-your-head type thing.· I can remember him,
18· · like, half turned and look back forward walking
19· · down the concrete walkway to where I was.· And I
20· · had confronted -- at that time I had walked forward
21· · to that area, met him pretty much halfway.· And I
22· · had -- I think I either grabbed his wrist or the
23· · side of each of his shoulders.· Something along the
24· · lines of basically telling Dad that he had to calm
YVer1f
·1· · down.· It's too late to back out.· Get it together

·2· · type stuff.· I'm not sure of the words I used, but
·3· · something along the lines.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So you were calm, cool, and
·5· · collected?
·6· · · · A.· ·I'm not going to that I was calm, cool,
·7· · and collected, but I would -- I think the word I
·8· · would use that I shield myself with resolve
·9· · throughout my shock.
10· · · · Q.· ·And so where was your dad's 40 at that
11· · point?
12· · · · A.· ·I assume on his person.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did you see it?
14· · · · A.· ·No.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· It was not in either hand?
16· · · · A.· ·No.
17· · · · Q.· ·Is that when you went inside and dragged
18· · the bodies back into the back bedroom?
19· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Are you asking from when I stood
20· · from them --
21· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
22· · · · A.· ·-- to the point I -- that's when I
23· · entered.· I seen Gary, is that what you're asking?
24· · · · Q.· ·Let me rephrase.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Please do.

·2· · · · Q.· ·If you don't understand, just say so.
·3· · · · A.· ·That's why I'm trying to follow you.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You're doing a good job.
·5· · · · · · ·So after you calm your dad down --
·6· · · · A.· ·Okay.
·7· · · · Q.· ·-- that's what you did; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·I went inside of the house trailer, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You went inside and you found
10· · Chris laying on the floor; correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And you found Gary laying in the chair
13· · dead; correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then you took the bodies
16· · and put them in the backroom, is that what you did?
17· · · · A.· ·No, I did not.
18· · · · Q.· ·You did not do that?
19· · · · A.· ·No.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What did you do?
21· · · · A.· ·I searched Chris's pockets, took the keys.
22· · He had a big -- a large cluster of keys.· So I
23· · could go out and into his grow room above his
24· · motorcycle garage to collect the hard drive to his
YVer1f
·1· · camera.
·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that's what you did;
·3· · correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And you went, you got his keys.· A lot of
·6· · keys on that key ring?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Was there a key to Dana's
·9· · place on there?
10· · · · A.· ·I -- now I think about it, yes, I assume
11· · that there was.
12· · · · Q.· ·And so you took those keys.· You walked
13· · back outside through the grass; correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Over here -- let's look at the chart.· I'm
16· · sorry.· The photo.
17· · · · · · ·You walked where?· Outside the front door?
18· · · · · · ·Can you show us how you walked?· Point out
19· · where you walked.
20· · · · A.· ·Down this ramp and back caddy-corner
21· · through the grass to --
22· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Wait.· I'm having trouble
23· · hearing.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You've got to keep your voice up so

·2· · this woman over here can hear you.
·3· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Take your time.
·5· · · · A.· ·Can you hear me now?
·6· · · · · · ·I come out the front door, down the ramp
·7· · at an angle through the grass to the back of this
·8· · building and up the stairs.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And you went in the grow room; correct?
10· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Say that again.
11· · · · Q.· ·You went inside the grow room?
12· · · · A.· ·I did.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you used the key to unlock it?
14· · · · A.· ·I did.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you found the DVR;
16· · correct?
17· · · · A.· ·I did.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you unhooked it and you took it;
19· · correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·How long were you up there, about?
22· · · · A.· ·Just a few minutes.
23· · · · Q.· ·At this point when you're up in the grow
24· · room, what is the total amount of time you'd been
YVer1f
·1· · at Chris's, do you think?

·2· · · · A.· ·Including the time I was under the bed.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · A.· ·Inside the bed in the hay?
·5· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · A.· ·Maybe -- maybe an hour.
·7· · · · Q.· ·So an hour from when you arrived to when
·8· · you got up to the grow room?
·9· · · · A.· ·Give or take, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Give or take.
11· · · · · · ·And you arrived at Chris's at about what
12· · time?
13· · · · A.· ·Close to 10:00ish, maybe.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you're in the grow room?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·You find the DVR; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Had you been in that grow room
19· · previously?
20· · · · A.· ·I had not, no.
21· · · · Q.· ·So did you have any problem finding the
22· · DVR?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·So you come down out of there; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · You come down the steps?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·3· · · · Q.· ·You're up at the grow room, you come down
·4· · the steps.
·5· · · · A.· ·I exited the grow room, shut the door and
·6· · went down, yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·What did you do with the DVR?
·8· · · · A.· ·I put it in the back seat of our truck.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And this is the truck here, NNN-1, that
10· · you identified earlier?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And you had a .22 on you at that time
13· · throughout all of this; is that right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But you'd taken the SKS from
16· · George and shot Chris with it, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·What did you do after you shot Chris with
19· · the SK?
20· · · · A.· ·I'd given it back to George.
21· · · · Q.· ·Do you know what he did with it?
22· · · · A.· ·No.
23· · · · Q.· ·And then when you come down out of that
24· · grow room -- let me back up.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·The SKS, that was a gun that was kept in

·2· · the gun safe at the home on Peterson Road, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you and your brother and your father
·5· · and your mother had access to this gun safe, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that was a gun -- that SKS
·8· · was a gun that you had had for years; is that
·9· · right?
10· · · · A.· ·More than a decade, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·More than a decade.
12· · · · · · ·And you'd used that gun on other
13· · occasions; is that correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And I think your words, when you talked to
16· · the prosecutors last year, was you commandeered
17· · that gun; is that right?
18· · · · A.· ·That's the word I used, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that?
20· · · · A.· ·For sake of the audience and the jurors,
21· · if they don't understand what the word commandeer
22· · means, it's a, well, to my understanding, a pirate
23· · term where you take something that's not yours.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you had -- you used that gun
YVer1f
·1· · whenever you wanted, right?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· It was as much your gun as
·4· · anybody else's, right?
·5· · · · A.· ·In a sense, yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·So you give it back to George.
·7· · · · · · ·You come down the steps of the grow room.
·8· · · · · · ·Well, before I go there.· How many shots
·9· · did you fire from that SKS?
10· · · · A.· ·A lot.
11· · · · Q.· ·A lot.· Did you empty it?
13· · · · Q.· ·Do you think there were still bullets in
14· · there?
15· · · · A.· ·Maybe.· I'm not sure.
16· · · · Q.· ·You're not sure.
17· · · · · · ·But you picked up the casings, you said,
18· · right?
19· · · · A.· ·I did.
20· · · · Q.· ·Later on?
21· · · · A.· ·Immediately after I fired.
22· · · · Q.· ·Immediately after you fired, you picked up
23· · the casings, you put them in your pocket?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You gave the gun back to George?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And then you go inside.
·4· · · · · · ·Well, you calm your dad down?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And then you go inside?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Find Gary in the chair, right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Chris is laying dead on the floor?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you go into Chris's pocket
13· · and get the keys, go out through the grass, go up
14· · to the grow room, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·You come of the grow room, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·What do you see next?
19· · · · A.· ·My father and my brother was standing at
20· · the edge of the grass near the concrete where
21· · Chris Senior's silver truck was parked.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Let's go back to the photo.
23· · · · · · ·I need you to you point out where they
24· · were standing.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·About right here.

·2· · · · Q.· ·So that's not where you fired the shots
·3· · from; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·Correct.
·5· · · · Q.· ·So you're over --
·6· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Wait.· Wait.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Oh, I'm sorry.
·8· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· I didn't get his answer.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Maybe put that mike --
10· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· So that's not where you
11· · fired the shots from, correct?
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Just hold on.· If you could
13· · read the question back.
14· · · · · · ·(The question referred to was read back by
15· · the court reporter.)
16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
17· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Thank you.
18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· You're welcome.
20· · · · Q.· ·So once again, point on the photo where
21· · your dad and George were allegedly standing.
22· · · · A.· ·Here.· Here.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So that -- there's a car right
24· · there; is that right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And what color is that?
·3· · · · A.· ·Silver.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And this is the concrete pad
·5· · you're referencing?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And this truck right here, is that a
·8· · silver truck too?
·9· · · · A.· ·That's a silver truck, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whose truck that is?
11· · · · A.· ·That's Chris Senior's truck.
12· · · · Q.· ·So Chris had two trucks?
13· · · · A.· ·He had multiple vehicles.
14· · · · Q.· ·Multiple vehicles.
15· · · · · · ·But he had two trucks that basically
16· · looked alike; is that right?
17· · · · A.· ·Actually he did, yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· This one right here that you
19· · just pointed out, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He had one almost identical to that.
21· · · · Q.· ·And then this one over here where you
22· · fired underneath; correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Well, the question -- that would be in
24· · third.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·That would be a third.

·2· · · · · · ·So where's -- why don't you point out
·3· · Chris's vehicles.
·4· · · · A.· ·And I'm --
·5· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· I can't hear him.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Keep your voice up.
·8· · · · A.· ·I don't know what you want me to say.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Let me ask the question.
10· · · · A.· ·Yeah, please.
11· · · · Q.· ·Can you point out Chris's trucks to us?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.· This is the one I was describing
13· · that George and my dad was standing in front of,
14· · which was in this area here.· And this is the one
15· · I'm describing as I had been underneath of and shot
16· · from.
17· · · · Q.· ·And which one did you later drive to the
18· · various crime scenes?
19· · · · A.· ·This one.
20· · · · Q.· ·So the one closest to Union Hill Road?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You can sit back down.
23· · · · · · ·And what did you do when you came down and
24· · found your father and brother allegedly talking
YVer1f
·1· · where you just indicated?

·2· · · · · · ·What did you do?
·3· · · · A.· ·I went back into Chris's house to retrieve
·4· · Gary and Chris's cell phones.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And where were they?
·6· · · · A.· ·They were in Chris's bedroom.
·7· · · · Q.· ·They were dead; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And you have no idea how they got back
10· · there, do you?
11· · · · A.· ·I mean, they were drug, but I don't know
12· · who drug them, no.
13· · · · Q.· ·You don't know who.· It wasn't you, right?
14· · · · A.· ·It was not me.
15· · · · Q.· ·And did you walk through the hallway,
16· · through the kitchen -- I'm sorry.· Let me start
17· · over.· You walked through the front door; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Go to your left?
20· · · · A.· ·I did.
21· · · · Q.· ·You saw a lot of blood there?
22· · · · A.· ·There was.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You walked through the kitchen
24· · area?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Go back that little hallway
·3· · towards the bedroom?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· There's a lot of blood there;
·6· · correct?
·7· · · · A.· ·I don't have a good memory of blood being
·8· · there, no.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you went into the bedroom;
10· · correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And what did you find in the bedroom?
13· · · · A.· ·Chris and Gary's bodies.
14· · · · Q.· ·I'm showing you what's previously been
15· · marked as State's Exhibit A-443.
16· · · · · · ·Does this look familiar?
17· · · · A.· ·I mean, I remember it inverted, but yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean you remember it inverted?
19· · · · A.· ·That's coming into the bedroom; correct?
20· · Standing at the bedroom door?
21· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· You were there; I wasn't.· So you
22· · tell me.
23· · · · A.· ·So to what the photo looks like, if you're
24· · standing in the doorway, the gun safe is there on
YVer1f
·1· · the left, the bed's on the right.· I remember the

·2· · feet being towards the door.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So this is not how the bodies were
·4· · positioned when you went in there?
·5· · · · A.· ·Well, I'm not saying that.· I'm saying
·6· · that's not how my memory shows it.· I see it
·7· · inverted.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You see it inverted.· Fair enough.
·9· · · · · · ·I'll show you A-444, A triple 4.· Does
10· · that help your memory at all?
11· · · · A.· ·I mean, again, it's, like, I'm telling
12· · you, the image is -- yes, it's familiar.· I'm just
13· · saying I -- just invertedly is how I remember it.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that where Chris's body was
15· · when you took the keys from him?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And then you walked out through that
18· · narrow hallway and basically retraced your steps
19· · out the front door; is that right?
20· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· I was -- I was thinking.
21· · · · · · ·Can you repeat that?
22· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· Take your time.
23· · · · · · ·Once you got the keys from Chris, right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry.· The cell phones.

·2· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Yes.· Cell phones.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Because now you've already had the keys?
·4· · · · A.· ·I've already got the keys.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Now you're looking for their cell phones?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And how many cell phones did you take?
·8· · · · A.· ·I think there was three, but it may have
·9· · been two.· I know Chris usually has two cell
10· · phones.
11· · · · Q.· ·Did you take a cell phone from Gary?
12· · · · A.· ·I believe I did.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then once you got those
14· · cell phones, did you retrace your steps out of the
15· · bedroom, down the hall, across the kitchen, and out
16· · the front door?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·What did you do once you went back
19· · outside?
20· · · · A.· ·I went back over -- I went to where George
21· · and Dad was standing in the grass.
22· · · · Q.· ·Were they standing in the same place?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes, I believe so.
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And what did you do once you
YVer1f
·1· · got over to them?

·2· · · · A.· ·We had walked up to Frankie's house.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And how long did that take?· Not very
·4· · long, right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Wait.· The walk?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · A.· ·Less than a minute.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Less than a minute.
·9· · · · · · ·And approximately what time was it at that
10· · point, would you say?
11· · · · A.· ·I -- I'm not sure.· I didn't have a watch
12· · or a way to tell time.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Approximately how long had you
14· · been at Chris's in total at that point in time,
15· · approximately?
16· · · · A.· ·Maybe -- maybe an hour and 15 minutes, an
17· · hour and 20 minutes, something like that, total.
18· · · · Q.· ·So if you arrived let's say at 9:30 --
19· · okay? -- and it was an hour-plus later, it would
20· · have been before 11:00 o'clock when you walked up
21· · to Frankie's; is that right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And Frankie -- you were very
24· · familiar with that home; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I was.

·2· · · · Q.· ·That's where Hanna used to live with her
·3· · mom, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And Little Chris?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You had spent the night there
·8· · several times, right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Been there many other times; correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So you were also familiar this
13· · particular night that Frankie had a bunch of dogs
14· · behind his trailer, right?
15· · · · A.· ·He did.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· He had a lot of chickens and
17· · other things around; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·He did.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did those dogs bark when you
20· · walked up there?
21· · · · A.· ·They did.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Were they -- can you describe,
23· · were they barking loudly?
24· · · · A.· ·Well, for the most part, I believe they
YVer1f
·1· · were coonhounds and, yes, they were very loud.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Coonhounds tend to be very loud dogs,
·3· · don't they?
·4· · · · A.· ·They are, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Were they barking before you got up there?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·So they were barking in response to you
·8· · coming up there, is that your understanding?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And this was before 11:00 o'clock --
11· · right? -- approximately?
12· · · · A.· ·If not, I mean, it'd be close, but yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Around 11:00 o'clock?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And so at that point it's your
16· · dad that goes and tries to get in the front door?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But he was unsuccessful?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then is it your dad or you
21· · that goes around the back?
22· · · · A.· ·Dad.
23· · · · Q.· ·Dad goes around back where the dogs are?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And he tries the back door?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And those are the only two doors to that
·4· · home; correct?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And those dogs are barking, wailing coon
·7· · dogs, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And there was no response from inside that
10· · home?
11· · · · A.· ·No.
12· · · · Q.· ·And your dad comes out and says it's all
13· · locked up, let's go to the next stop?
14· · · · A.· ·He had said something along the lines that
15· · we'll do this one later because it may be a
16· · bust-and-go type thing of sorts.· He said something
17· · similar to that.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So you leave there.
19· · · · · · ·How long were you at Frankie's in total,
20· · would you say?
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And so you retrace your steps
23· · back down to Chris's; is that right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And at that point do you get

·2· · into Chris's truck?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And who's driving?
·5· · · · A.· ·I am.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Was it your idea to get into his truck?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Was it your dad's?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And at that point you leave there;
11· · correct?
12· · · · A.· ·We're still at the point of getting into
13· · Chris's truck and leaving, right?
14· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· You get into the truck and then you
15· · leave, right?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you come out of this
18· · driveway right here; correct?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Which way do you go?· To my right or to my
21· · left?
22· · · · A.· ·To your left.
23· · · · Q.· ·You go this way to the left.· And where do
24· · you go?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·We drove to where Dana's house would be.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Dana's new house?
·3· · · · A.· ·Dana Rhoden.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Dana Rhoden's new house?
·5· · · · A.· ·Oh, I thought you said who.
·6· · · · · · ·Yes, Dana's new house.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· She'd only lived there about a
·8· · month or so?
·9· · · · A.· ·I think it was longer than that, but it
10· · was a very short time.
11· · · · Q.· ·Very short time.· But you had been there
12· · previously?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·You knew where it was?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And did you know she was working that day?
17· · · · A.· ·I assumed she was; I wasn't sure.
18· · · · Q.· ·You weren't sure.
19· · · · · · ·And the purpose of going up there was for
20· · you to kill those three people in her home;
21· · correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Well, at that point I believe it was to
23· · see if Dana was home.
24· · · · Q.· ·But you were -- if she was home, you were
YVer1f
·1· · going to go in and kill her; correct?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·That was your plan with your dad?
·4· · · · A.· ·That was the plan.· Yes, that was the
·5· · plan.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And so you go up there and you were
·7· · surprised when her vehicle wasn't sitting in front
·8· · of her place; is that right?
·9· · · · A.· ·I don't think the word surprised is
10· · correct, but, I mean, we seen that the vehicle was
11· · not there, so --
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Were you expecting her to be
13· · there?
14· · · · A.· ·Again, I don't think expecting is the
15· · right word, no.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you hoping her vehicle was
17· · there?
18· · · · A.· ·I mean -- I went to see if she was there.
19· · I don't think that -- there was nothing hope about
20· · the whole night.
21· · · · Q.· ·Well, let me put it this way.· If her
22· · vehicle was there, that meant she was there;
23· · correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·All right.· When her vehicle's not there,

·2· · you decided to come back later?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·So you see that her vehicle's not there,
·5· · you turn around someplace, and go back down by
·6· · Chris's, right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And do you stop at Chris's?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Do you stop at Frankie's?
11· · · · A.· ·No.
12· · · · Q.· ·You keep driving?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And where do you go?
15· · · · A.· ·To drive past Ken's house.
16· · · · Q.· ·And why -- why did you -- Ken was on your
17· · list of people to kill, right?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·So now you're going to go kill Ken?
20· · · · A.· ·I believe it was the same scenario; to see
21· · if he was home.
22· · · · Q.· ·Right.· And you went down there and he was
23· · home?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And that's when you pulled in and killed

·2· · him, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Why not?
·5· · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I don't know.· Dad said
·6· · keep going.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Well, Ken -- if I understand
·8· · this correctly, Ken was very protective of his
·9· · family, right?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Your dad had had some experience with
12· · that; correct?
13· · · · A.· ·Can you describe experience or --
14· · · · Q.· ·Well, your dad knew Ken, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And he knew Ken was protective, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And he certainly were concerned that if
19· · Ken found out about the murders, there would be
20· · retaliation, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And that's why Ken was on the list, right?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Not that he would get custody
YVer1f
·1· · of Sophia, right?

·2· · · · A.· ·Correct.
·3· · · · Q.· ·He was there because you feared that he
·4· · would figure out that you or your father was
·5· · involved and he would kill you; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Well, specifically me, but yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Specifically you.
·8· · · · · · ·And so this was kind of a proactive let's
·9· · kill him before he kills me?
10· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure I understand the correct
11· · word.· Can you use another word?
12· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· So the idea of killing Ken was that
13· · he might retaliate against you for killing the
14· · other family members; correct?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So the idea was to kill Ken
17· · before he could kill you?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you drive to his home and
20· · you said he was there, but you didn't kill him?
21· · · · A.· ·Correct.
22· · · · Q.· ·And it had nothing to do with custody,
23· · right?
24· · · · A.· ·Correct.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·So you return up to Chris's at that point;

·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·How long would you say it took you to get
·5· · from when you passed Chris's house going down to
·6· · Ken and then back up to Frankie's house?
·7· · · · · · ·How long would that take, would you say?
·8· · · · A.· ·A half hour, maybe.
·9· · · · Q.· ·So now it's -- approximately what time
10· · would you say that you returned to Chris's?
11· · · · A.· ·Midnightish.
12· · · · Q.· ·Around midnight.· And what did you do once
13· · you returned?
14· · · · A.· ·We got back out and went back up to
15· · Frankie's.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you walked the same path
17· · you walked before?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·So it took about a minute or so to get up
20· · there?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And, as you approached, was it quiet once
23· · again?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did the coonhounds start

·2· · wailing away?
·3· · · · A.· ·They did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you try the front door again?
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·You went to the back; is that right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you had previously crawled
·9· · through the same window that you entered that
10· · night; isn't that right?
11· · · · A.· ·I'm confused now.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I don't want to confuse you.
13· · · · A.· ·So you're asking if I had previously
14· · crawled through the window I crawled through that
15· · night but not on that night?
16· · · · Q.· ·Not on that night.· On other days a long
17· · time before this, you had been through that window?
18· · · · A.· ·That specific window?
19· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
20· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · Q.· ·One of the other windows?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that's when Hanna lived
24· · there, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Because you were dating her at the time;
·3· · correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And sometimes you would go
·6· · through the window to get into her bedroom, right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Not on how that sounds, but yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did you go through her bedroom
·9· · window?
10· · · · A.· ·I did.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So you -- even if it wasn't
12· · that window, you'd previously crawled through
13· · another window in that house?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So this night, you go to the
16· · back and you see the window is open; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Well, first I tried to open a door.
18· · · · Q.· ·Right.· You had that knife, right?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And so you tried to pry your way in,
21· · right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And the dogs are howling, I'm sure.
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·But that didn't work, right?

·2· · · · A.· ·No.
·3· · · · Q.· ·So you noticed the window was open?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·How open was it?
·6· · · · A.· ·It was fully open, I think.
·7· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?
·8· · · · A.· ·Fully open, I believe.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Fully open.
10· · · · · · ·You've seen the photo of it that you saw
11· · earlier?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Was it that open, or did you have to raise
14· · it?
15· · · · A.· ·No.· It was that open.
16· · · · Q.· ·It was that open.
17· · · · · · ·And so you go over and -- I think you said
18· · you slithered, right?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·You went in and you killed Frankie and
21· · killed Hannah Hazel Gilley; correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Well, first, I went and opened the back
23· · door.
24· · · · Q.· ·You went and opened the back door, but
YVer1f
·1· · then you went in and killed Frankie and Hannah

·2· · Hazel Gilley, then you came out, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And how long were you in that home,
·5· · approximately?
·6· · · · A.· ·Three, four minutes maybe.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Pretty quick.· In and out, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·It was pretty -- yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·In and out?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·What did you do then?
12· · · · A.· ·After that, we walked back down to Chris's
13· · and got back in his silver truck and then drove to
14· · Dana's.
15· · · · Q.· ·You drove up to Dana's for the second
16· · time?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· How long does it take to get
19· · to Dana's about?
20· · · · A.· ·A minute or two.
21· · · · Q.· ·A minute or two.
22· · · · · · ·It's not too far, right?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·When you go up to Dana's, what do you
YVer1f
·1· · find?
·2· · · · A.· ·Dana was there.
·3· · · · Q.· ·You see her car?
·4· · · · A.· ·Her car was there.
·5· · · · Q.· ·So you think she's home?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·So you walk in; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·Well, first I pull in.
·9· · · · Q.· ·First you pull in.
10· · · · · · ·Let me back up.· I want to back up just a
11· · minute.
12· · · · · · ·You're at Frankie's?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·How many shots did you fire into Frankie?
15· · · · A.· ·I shot, I think, one or two and -- for
16· · Frankie, and then I had shot Hanna Hazel, I think,
17· · once.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And how many shots -- I'm
19· · sorry.· How many bullets does your 1911 hold?
20· · · · A.· ·Thirteen with one in the chamber.
21· · · · Q.· ·Thirteen with one in the chamber?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·So 12 in the clip and then 1 in the
24· · chamber makes 13?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·So you fired those shots.· You leave.· You
·3· · get in the truck and you go up to Dana's and you
·4· · see her car there; correct?
·5· · · · A.· ·Well, after I had fired the shots, then I
·6· · had -- well, attempted to at least -- at least try
·7· · to have a quick look around for shell casings or
·8· · cell phones.· It was very brief because it was -- -
·9· · it was a mess, so I gave up like almost nearly.
10· · While I was doing that, I did hand my dad the 1911
11· · to hold while I was searching, and I believe he
12· · shot Frankie a couple more times or something.
13· · · · Q.· ·Your dad shot Frankie?
14· · · · A.· ·This was after he was dead.
15· · · · Q.· ·After he was dead?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Did you ever tell that to the State last
18· · April?
19· · · · A.· ·I did.· I remember it, yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·So you -- it will be in the transcript
21· · that your dad shot Frankie?
22· · · · A.· ·You mean my proffer?
23· · · · Q.· ·Your proffer.· The recorded proffer.
24· · · · A.· ·No, it will not.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·It will not be there?

·2· · · · A.· ·No.
·3· · · · Q.· ·When did you tell the State that your dad
·4· · shot Frankie?
·5· · · · A.· ·A few months ago.
·6· · · · Q.· ·A few months ago?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·So was that in 2022?
·9· · · · · · ·I mean, right now we're in October, I
10· · think?
11· · · · A.· ·2022.· Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·So when in 2022 did you tell them that
13· · your dad shot Frankie?
14· · · · A.· ·I -- this may have been, like, Julyish.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did they come and see you at the
16· · jail where you were being held?
17· · · · A.· ·I mean, not in the jail specifically, but
18· · you know, in the facilities they have.
19· · · · Q.· ·In the facility?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·In Columbus?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·So your dad shot Frankie.
24· · · · · · ·Did your dad shoot Hannah Hazel Gilley?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then you left out of there
·3· · -- correct? -- and got down to Chris's truck?
·4· · · · A.· ·Well, first I took the gun back from him,
·5· · yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·You took the gun back from him.
·7· · · · · · ·You went down to where Chris's truck was
·8· · parked, right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you got in that; correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then you go up to Dana's
13· · for the second time; correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you notice her car is
16· · there?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So what did you do then?
19· · · · A.· ·So I pulled into the driveway.
20· · · · Q.· ·And?
21· · · · A.· ·And from there, we got out and walked up
22· · to the front porch.
23· · · · Q.· ·And you were leading the way; is that
24· · right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you got up to her front
·3· · door and it was unlocked?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You didn't use a key from Chris's key
·6· · ring?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.· It was unlocked.
·8· · · · Q.· ·It was unlocked.· But you had the key ring
·9· · on you?
10· · · · A.· ·I did.
11· · · · Q.· ·But you didn't need it?
12· · · · A.· ·No.
13· · · · Q.· ·You thought you might, but you didn't?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So her front door is unlocked.
16· · · · · · ·And about what time is this?
17· · · · A.· ·12:30ish, maybe.
18· · · · Q.· ·And how long total do you think you were
19· · in Dana's home?
20· · · · A.· ·I would say the longest was in Dana's.
21· · · · · · ·Wait.· Did you say room or home?
22· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry.· Let me be clear.· Okay.
23· · · · · · ·So you walk up to her front door, it's
24· · unlocked and you entered; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·How long were you inside her mobile home?
·3· · · · A.· ·Oh, okay.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Approximately.
·5· · · · A.· ·10, maybe 15 minutes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·So longer than Frankie's?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Not as long as at Chris's?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·10 or 15 minutes.
11· · · · A.· ·I would say closer to 10, but give or
12· · take.
13· · · · Q.· ·Give or take.· About 10, maybe 15.
14· · · · · · ·And in that amount of time, you killed
15· · those three people; is that right?
16· · · · A.· ·Well, I -- yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And when you first went in, did you know
18· · which bedroom was Little Chris's?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And that one was to the right, am I
21· · correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then you knew where
24· · your -- the mother of your child, you knew where
YVer1f
·1· · her bedroom was because you had set up a crib there
·2· · previously, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did you set up the crib that
·5· · was in her bedroom?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So you knew exactly where her
·8· · room was, right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And Kylee was only about four days old; is
11· · that right?
12· · · · A.· ·I think it was five, but yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Five days.· Okay.
14· · · · · · ·So you knew where her room was.· Did you
15· · know where Dana's room was?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Were there any other bedrooms
18· · in that home?
20· · · · Q.· ·So you knew where each person's bedroom
21· · was when you walked through the front door;
22· · correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Did you go to the right and check on
YVer1f
·1· · Little Chris first?

·2· · · · A.· ·No.
·3· · · · Q.· ·You went straight back to Hanna's bedroom;
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And you saw her asleep in bed?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And you stood in that hallway between her
·9· · bedroom and Dana's bedroom; is that right?
10· · · · A.· ·Not directly in the hallway, but on the
11· · edge, yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·On the edge.
13· · · · · · ·So you go through the front door -- if I
14· · have this correct -- if I say anything wrong, tell
15· · me.
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·You go through the front door and make a
18· · beeline for Hanna's room, right?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Because that's who you were going to kill?
21· · That was the whole reason you went on this murder
22· · spree was to kill Hanna?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·So you made a beeline back to her bedroom.
YVer1f
·1· · You saw she was asleep, or you thought so.

·2· · · · A.· ·No.· I -- I mean, it looked like she was
·3· · asleep.
·4· · · · Q.· ·It looked like she was asleep.
·5· · · · · · ·So then you pivot and you check on her
·6· · mother; correct?
·7· · · · A.· ·Did you say pivot?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· You pivot from her room, go up the
·9· · hallway and look into her mother's bedroom.
10· · · · A.· ·I didn't move from the spot, but, yes, I
11· · pivoted.
12· · · · Q.· ·You pivoted, but you didn't have -- you
13· · didn't take a step?
14· · · · A.· ·No.
15· · · · Q.· ·So you could see them both from the same
16· · spot?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you saw that Dana actually
19· · wasn't asleep yet; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Correct.
21· · · · Q.· ·She was on her phone; laying in bed in her
22· · nightclothes on her phone?
23· · · · A.· ·Take that back.· Actually, I -- the first
24· · time I knew she was awake on the phone.· I had
YVer1f
·1· · first gone to Dana's doors that was shut and

·2· · locked, and I looked under the door and seen that
·3· · she was on her phone.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You looked under the door?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·How did you look under the door?
·7· · · · A.· ·I looked down and put my eye against it.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You got down on the floor?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And peered underneath the door?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And you saw Dana was laying in bed?
13· · · · A.· ·Well, I seen her feet and the edge of her
14· · phone, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you picked yourself up off
16· · the floor?
17· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I stood back up and then moved to
18· · the pivoting point.
19· · · · Q.· ·Then moved the pivoting point?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·What did you do next?
22· · · · A.· ·I froze.
23· · · · Q.· ·You froze?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·For how long?

·2· · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I froze for -- I mean, it
·3· · seemed like a long time, but it could have been a
·4· · minute.· I'm not sure how long.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You weren't there more than 10 or
·6· · 15 minutes, right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And certainly Dana never
·9· · discovered you when you were in this frozen state;
10· · correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I mean, correct.
12· · · · Q.· ·So is that when you hear Kylee crying?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·That brought you out of your frozen
15· · moment?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And at that point, what did you do?
18· · · · A.· ·I immediately looked at -- towards Hanna,
19· · and I seen her raise up on her shoulder or elbow
20· · and then I basically -- I don't know what the
21· · word -- it's, like, a now or never moment.· So I
22· · took a couple strides to the left with my arm out
23· · stretched and -- towards Dana.· When I did that
24· · motion, she had noticed me and made a gasp and
YVer1f
·1· · that's when I shot her.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You shot her from the hallway?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you hit her where?· Do you know?
·5· · · · A.· ·I do remember the first shot was, I think,
·6· · in the neck.· I may have shot twice, but I may have
·7· · shot once.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And then what did you do after that?
·9· · · · A.· ·I immediately spun and took a couple more
10· · strides, still in the hallway, because -- now, at
11· · that point I guess from maybe the clack noise or
12· · the gasp, Hanna had turned and looked at me and
13· · made a, gasping, like, inhale sound looking at me,
14· · then I -- I still outside the bedroom, I shot her.
15· · · · Q.· ·Still outside the bedroom?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·You shot her in the front of the head, I
18· · think you said?
19· · · · A.· ·Like, forehead area, yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·The forehead area.
21· · · · · · ·All right.· From the hall?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And what were the lighting conditions?· It
24· · was dark in there, wasn't it?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No.· The lights was on.

·2· · · · Q.· ·The lights were on.
·3· · · · A.· ·In those two bedrooms, the lights were on.
·4· · · · Q.· ·So Hannah was sleeping with the light on?
·5· · · · A.· ·I mean, yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Is it, like, an overhead light or a
·7· · lamp?
·8· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.· It was very lighted.
·9· · · · Q.· ·It was bright enough for you to see?
10· · · · A.· ·It was as light in this room here.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so you shot from the hallway
12· · and hit her in the forehead?
13· · · · A.· ·I assume.· I mean, she was looking
14· · directly -- like how you're looking at me right
15· · now.
16· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
17· · · · A.· ·That's the way direction of -- upon --
18· · after I shot the first time, she --
19· · · · Q.· ·I'm talking about the first shot.
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· The first shot hit her, her head
21· · jarred back, and she fell back down.
22· · · · Q.· ·And you thought you hit her in the
23· · forehead?
24· · · · A.· ·At that time, I thought I hit her in the
YVer1f
·1· · forehead.
·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Then what did you do next?
·3· · · · A.· ·I turned around and went back to Dana and
·4· · I shot her once, maybe twice more.
·5· · · · Q.· ·In the head?
·6· · · · A.· ·In the head.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And did you approach her bed or did you do
·8· · it, again, from the hallway?
·9· · · · A.· ·Now.· I approached her bed.
10· · · · Q.· ·And did you get right up beside her?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I was standing beside the bed.
12· · · · Q.· ·And she was laying on her back?
13· · · · A.· ·She was on her back, yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·All right.· In her nightgown,
15· · nightclothes?
16· · · · A.· ·I can't exactly remember what she was
17· · wearing.· But yes, she was laying down.· She was
18· · clothed, I know that.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that's when you shot how many
20· · times into her head?
21· · · · A.· ·Once, maybe twice.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then did you cover her
23· · with the blanket at that point?
24· · · · A.· ·I do not remember covering her with the
YVer1f
·1· · blanket.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Well, your lawyer showed you the photos.
·3· · She was covered up with the blanket, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember doing that?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Gary and Chris were covered with a blanket
·8· · too, weren't they?
·9· · · · A.· ·I don't know.
10· · · · Q.· ·You don't know.
11· · · · · · ·You saw the photos earlier, right?
12· · · · A.· ·Wait.· Are you talking about Big Chris or
13· · -- Chris Senior?
14· · · · Q.· ·Chris Senior.· I'm sorry.
15· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.· Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Chris Senior and Gary, they were covered
17· · with a blanket too?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And so was Dana, right?
20· · · · A.· ·I do remember covering Chris, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·You covered up Chris?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Senior?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·So after -- after you shoot Dana, did you
·2· · say once or twice more?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What did you do then?
·5· · · · A.· ·Then I returned to Hanna's room and I shot
·6· · her once more because I could not see a visible
·7· · wound so I thought maybe it hit in the hairline, so
·8· · I shot her again once more.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And where were you standing when you did
10· · that?
11· · · · A.· ·Over top of her.
12· · · · Q.· ·Over top of her?
13· · · · A.· ·Like, standing beside the bed.
14· · · · Q.· ·And then what did you do?
15· · · · · · ·Do you go across over to Little Chris's
16· · room?
17· · · · A.· ·Well, no.· She -- when I did that, she had
18· · kind of half fallen out of the bed.
19· · · · Q.· ·Oh, yes.· So you gently placed her back up
20· · on the bed so little Kylee wouldn't starve to
21· · death?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·You're smiling.
24· · · · A.· ·This is not a -- please discard the smile.
YVer1f
·1· · It's not -- I don't think it's a laughing matter,

·2· · nothing funny about it.· It's just-- you ask
·3· · anybody about, this is me.· I smile in the worst
·4· · time.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And then you go to Little Chris's room?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And you find him lying in bed underneath
·8· · the blanket?
·9· · · · A.· ·I believe he was under a blanket, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do then?
11· · · · A.· ·I -- well, I walked up beside the bed and
12· · I shot him.
13· · · · Q.· ·Were you on the far side of the bed or the
14· · side where his head was?
15· · · · A.· ·I remember him -- I think he was on his --
16· · sleeping on his left shoulder on the -- if you walk
17· · into the bedroom on his left side of the bed, so I
18· · was on the left side of where that is.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you shot him how many times?
20· · · · A.· ·A lot.
21· · · · Q.· ·A lot.· You don't know how many?
22· · · · A.· ·I do not.
23· · · · Q.· ·And so you did all of this within 10 or
24· · 15 minutes?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And then you exited out, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Well, before I exited, I picked up the
·4· · shell casings.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Right.· You had to get the shell casings?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And you had to find their cell phones,
·8· · too?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I did get the cell phones, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·So after all three were dead is when you
11· · picked up the shell casings, or at least most of
12· · them?
13· · · · A.· ·I believe I left one, yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·You didn't know that at the time, right?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·Or you wouldn't have left it; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Correct.
18· · · · Q.· ·So you pick up the shell casings and you
19· · find their cell phones?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And you -- did you turn them -- were they
22· · on?
23· · · · A.· ·They were on.
24· · · · Q.· ·So you turned them off?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Put them in your pocket?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you walk out the front door that you
·5· · came in?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you lock the door behind you?
·8· · · · A.· ·I don't remember.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you walk out and get back into
10· · Chris's truck?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And are you driving at this point?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And where do you go?
15· · · · A.· ·We went back to Chris Senior's house.
16· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do there?
17· · · · A.· ·George got out and got in the truck we
18· · came in.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Now, why did you stop down at
20· · Chris Senior's instead of going straight to Ken's?
21· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But you go and drive to Ken's,
23· · right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Your dad's with you?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And I believe your testimony
·4· · is you pull in the driveway.· He's still home.· You
·5· · wait in the car, your dad gets out and pounds on
·6· · the door; correct?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes, I pulled in.· The headlights were
·8· · still on.· He gets out.· He walks up to the door,
·9· · beat on the door a few times, and then he opened
10· · the door.· I think he looked left and right, but he
11· · walked in, shut the door behind him.
12· · · · Q.· ·It wasn't locked, right?
13· · · · A.· ·No.
14· · · · Q.· ·Go on.
15· · · · A.· ·Then he -- I assume he turned right.· Shut
16· · the door behind him.
17· · · · Q.· ·Had you been in that camper before?
18· · · · A.· ·No.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Go ahead.
20· · · · A.· ·And I seen a flash.· Maybe about a second
21· · or two, maybe five seconds maybe, then he walked
22· · back out.
23· · · · Q.· ·So how long was your dad inside that
24· · camper, would you say?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Less than 30 second maybe.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Less than 30 seconds.
·3· · · · · · ·And he shot Ken right in the eye; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·I wasn't there; I don't know.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Well, you've seen the evidence, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.· He answered the
·8· · question.· He doesn't have personal knowledge.
10· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· He answered the question.· He
11· · doesn't have personal knowledge.· He's just making
12· · an argument at this point.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'm going to allow the
14· · question.· I'll overrule the objection.
16· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen the evidence from Ken's
17· · murder?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen his body?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You know, from looking at that
22· · photograph, that he was shot right in the eye?
23· · · · A.· ·Well, I tried not to focus on the wounds
24· · of the photos that were showed, but I did notice,
YVer1f
·1· · yes.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Why would you not want to focus on the
·3· · wound?
·4· · · · A.· ·Because I have no memory of the gruesome
·5· · parts of the crime, and I don't want to have a
·6· · memory of it.
·7· · · · Q.· ·That's pretty convenient, isn't it?
·8· · · · A.· ·Humm?
·9· · · · Q.· ·That's convenient?
10· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure how to answer that.
11· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.· Argumentative.
13· · objection.· He didn't answer it anyway.
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, can we approach for a
15· · moment?
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· All right.· I can go into
21· · another area, but it's 10 after 4:00.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We can do a couple of things,
23· · take a break and go back and come back about 25. I
24· · can't -- tomorrow's a day off.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Right.· I would prefer

·2· · stopping at this point because I'm going to go into
·3· · a totally different subject matter.
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Okay.· That's what --
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Ladies and Gentlemen, we're
·9· · recessing for the day.
10· · · · · · ·I told you earlier in the week that
11· · Thursday is a day off.· You're not coming in
12· · tomorrow, but you will be back here on Friday at
13· · 9:00 o'clock.· Or you could probably come in
14· · tomorrow, but nobody else will be here so you
15· · probably don't want to do that.
16· · · · · · ·The -- it is a day off tomorrow.
17· · · · · · ·While you are away from the court until we
18· · convene again on Friday at 9:00, you're not to
19· · discuss this case among yourselves or with anyone
20· · else.· You're not to permit anyone to discuss this
21· · case with you or in your presence.· You're not to
22· · form or express an opinion concerning this case
23· · until it's finally submitted to you for
24· · deliberation and verdict.· You're not to do any
·1· · research concerning the facts or the law of this

·2· · case from any source at all, and you're not to
·3· · read, view, or listen to any reports or accounts of
·4· · the case from any source at all including
·5· · newspaper, radio, and television, but also
·6· · including Facebook and other Internet sources or
·7· · social media sources.· Refrain from all of that.
·8· · And you're, of course, to have no contact with the
·9· · participants in the trial, including parties,
10· · counsel, and witnesses.
11· · · · · · ·You'll be leaving your notepads on your
12· · seats, wearing your badges home and back here on
13· · Friday morning at 9:00.
14· · · · · · ·At 9:00 o'clock on Friday, you're to
15· · assemble at the jury room, as you've been doing, to
16· · be brought up here by court personnel.
17· · · · · · ·Is there anything from counsel -- that
18· · counsel for either side wishes to place on the
19· · record before we recess until Friday morning at
20· · 9:00?
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.· Thank you, Judge.
24· · · · · · ·Then we are in recess until Friday morning
·1· · at 9:00.
·3· · · · · · · · · · · · ·* * * * *
·4
·5
·6
·7
·8
·9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
·3
·8· · 18-CR-155, on Wednesday, October 26, 2022, was
13· · November, 2022.
14
15
16
17· · · · · · · · · · · ________________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · Jo Ann Betler, RDR
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: $370,000..9:00
19 461:6 468:8 471:19 474:21
$ 568:1,3,4 4
1911 505:10,16 508:5,17
$370,000 559:3 539:1,18 541:9 648:19 649:10 4 541:15 603:9 631:9
192 558:17,23 4.5 547:1

1
1985 460:8 40 540:8 544:2 547:16 549:22
550:6 582:8,11 617:10
1 428:2 538:12 547:1 563:8,9 1990 429:2
565:23 648:23 40-shot 582:24 583:11
1st 460:18
10 438:4 566:24 605:14 653:5, 4643 461:5
10,11,13 658:5 664:23 669:21 4:00 669:21
2
10/24 459:8
104 429:3 2 428:6 563:17 577:12 5
10:00 438:13 20 461:6 604:7 605:14 633:17
5 550:1 563:18 603:9
10:00ish 621:13 2007 461:5
52 429:2 488:4
11 567:7 2016 564:5 565:6
544 607:13
11(C)(2) 429:12 2018 527:23
11:00 633:20 635:10,13 2018-CR-155 425:8 483:24 6
12 447:5 466:6 648:23 2019 530:20
6 564:15 603:9
12(C) 445:16 2021 568:19
66 558:17
12(C)(2) 426:22 427:2,15 2022 425:1,11 650:8,11,12
429:12,14 430:5,11 431:12 6th 460:18
21 532:9 585:21
433:18 447:24 448:17 449:9
450:13,19 458:18 459:19 22 505:10 540:11 565:6 580:11 7
460:4,20 461:22 462:17,22 622:12
463:5 22-CA-917 425:10 427:17 7 564:24 568:1 577:12 603:9
12:30ish 652:17 2244 543:20 7.62x39 540:4 544:22
12:31 551:16 22nd 564:5 78 558:19,24 559:10
12:35 551:13 23 565:23 79 428:13
13 648:24 24th 449:24
13th 527:23,24 528:1 8
25 425:11 669:23
14 461:6 26 425:1 8 455:20 565:14 568:17 603:9
144 558:23 2:00 551:17 552:13 82 558:17
15 433:21 438:5 551:18 552:12 2nd 427:3
604:7 605:14 633:16 653:5,10,
13 658:6 664:24 9
3
15-minute 435:1 9 427:7 547:17,21 548:13
16 455:20 3 428:8 542:4 558:3 566:12
160 558:23 559:10 30 583:15 668:1,2 90 428:13

17th 568:19 3rd 428:13 429:2 91 558:17
18 461:6 911 586:13
9:00 605:9 670:13,18
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: 9:00-something..angle
9:00-something 605:8 acts 471:22 agreed 446:23 447:1,6 458:17
488:10 533:8 586:6,7
9:30 633:18 actual 488:21 489:3 518:17
601:9 agreeing 514:6 564:10,22
565:12 566:10,22 567:18
A adapters 541:4
agreement 476:2 488:8
add 426:3 460:2 463:10 482:4
A-443 630:15 533:17 534:5 556:15 557:9
576:4,5
563:3 565:2 566:14 567:11
A-444 631:9 addition 432:12 452:5,6 475:4 568:6,18 571:3,8 577:13,14
A-544 607:19 610:16 565:1 566:12 567:2 571:1,7 585:14
ability 427:23 432:16,21 additional 452:18 558:16,19, agrees 429:17 563:20 564:16
441:20 442:18 454:2 575:20 22 559:10 565:2,17 566:5,18
above-stated 558:11 additionally 567:20 ahead 494:20 543:5 544:19

562:16 667:19
absolutely 458:4 468:23 address 425:16 459:1 474:12
471:3 473:11 475:3 476:10 AK 541:22 544:23 546:12
addressed 432:12
585:9 Alaska 499:9 509:1,6 516:7
addresses 479:20 554:24
abused 439:7
addressing 457:23 alerted 442:19
abusing 479:10 523:8
adducing 452:7 alike 627:16
accept 573:21
adjourned 483:14 484:18 allegations 485:21 486:7
accepting 563:13 568:8
adjudication 428:5 462:6 allegedly 626:21 628:24
access 427:4,22,23 428:4,7 477:15
441:16 447:4 465:23 477:13, allergy 576:23
16 623:5 administered 460:14 485:5
allowed 461:12,23 464:18
accommodate 441:8 admit 565:20 567:14 478:14 492:16 494:7
accommodation 441:18 admonish 482:10 allowing 438:17 453:24
accomplish 519:23 advance 438:1,2,3 458:17 454:18 466:4
account 561:19 563:24 advice 568:8,10 alluded 555:15
accountable 514:13 advised 446:8 480:10 481:1 altering 454:11
accounts 552:4 aerial 610:16 alternative 429:23 477:17
accurate 533:21 534:8 563:21 affect 452:24 454:1,13,20 alternatives 428:9

455:17 457:10 465:17 466:10
accurately 564:17 amendment 460:18
467:11 480:14 491:2 529:6
accused 504:18 575:11,14,20 ammo 548:19
accustomed 472:6 488:20 affected 528:23 ammunition 540:4,14 548:13,

16 549:22 550:6
acknowledge 448:14 568:9 affidavit 601:19
amount 571:9 586:11 605:16
acknowledges 462:10 aforementioned 565:16 620:24 653:14
act 514:7,9 afternoon 449:24 574:7 and/or 471:16 474:6
acted 600:18 agent 425:24 Andrew 425:22 484:5
acting 616:5 agents 512:14 angel 597:4
action 425:5,6 543:13 aggravated 559:21,24 561:9, Angela 425:22 445:5,12
14 565:20 566:8 572:20 573:6
active 490:5,8 521:23 459:13 484:4 565:9 566:16
agree 430:14 444:19 446:3 angle 620:7
activity 434:7 560:22 562:4 455:16 532:15,22 568:13
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: angles..back
angles 603:10,11 April 532:9 564:5 565:6 attacked 470:7,16
568:19 585:21 649:18
Ann 486:3,10,16,21 488:3 attacks 470:20
490:5 504:12 510:7 512:6 arduous 441:14
attempt 471:15 527:10
announcement 440:14 area 616:21 628:14 629:24
attempted 550:14 649:6
659:19,20 669:21
answers 585:17
attempts 526:21
areas 471:14
antianxiety 525:17 577:1
attention 439:5,6,8 461:3
argue 439:15 457:7 465:9
anticipate 431:13,14 436:19 481:19 482:22 483:1,5,6
452:13 479:12 483:3 argument 446:13 448:8 451:5 485:20 486:4 494:21 576:6
455:12 460:2,16 465:5 467:12
antidepressant 577:1 attorney 425:21 426:1 430:18
548:7,8 668:12
458:7 484:3 503:11,19 507:6,7
antidepressants 525:16
Argumentative 669:11 512:15
anymore 495:2 528:19 529:8
arguments 445:3,4 attorney-client 535:16 536:1
apologies 574:16 608:23 609:9,14,16
arm 658:22
apologize 457:21 attorneys 425:22 431:10
arrest 523:1
443:5 484:2,4 530:10,21
appeal 464:14
arrested 523:3 527:23 534:12 535:1,14 563:5 568:8,
appeals 425:9 427:18 428:11 11 574:11 577:17 608:22
arrived 605:11 621:7,11
429:16,20 430:1,2,7,11 431:4
633:18 audience 481:23 623:20
433:17 444:2 445:7,22 446:1,
4,5 447:22,24 448:1 463:2 asks 444:18 audio 480:2 481:5
478:3 494:24
asleep 579:10 655:6 656:1,3, audio-recorded 448:18
appeals' 429:18,19 4,19
Aunt 516:14
appearance 425:19 534:4 aspects 468:18
authorities 514:7 527:20
appears 539:2 554:18 562:17 assault 527:17 541:23 598:18
appellate 449:9 461:8 assemblies 539:17 authority 427:14 428:10

444:20
applicability 431:12 assembly 539:18
avoid 491:12,17 514:13
applied 482:24 assessment 471:2
awake 523:23 656:24
applies 466:13 478:17 assigned 469:16
aware 428:21 443:16 449:4
apply 458:18 486:16 assignment 469:10 451:12 482:9 495:20 497:23
applying 433:11,13,14 444:22 assignments 469:17 498:14 499:10 503:5 524:1
461:10 525:4,15 526:1 527:4,12,19
assume 430:10 447:23 585:1
apprehension 514:13 481:11 528:7 617:12 619:10
660:13 667:15 awareness 498:9
approach 428:18 493:16
500:9,14 516:17,20 534:17 assumed 522:18 597:23
570:5 577:6 609:1 661:7 638:17 B
669:14
assumes 434:2
approached 492:8 493:18 B-188 545:24
assuming 548:19
500:16 516:23 534:19 570:7 baby 580:20,21
609:4 643:22 661:9 669:17 assumption 460:23 492:3
559:16 back 434:16 435:9 436:11,18,
appropriately 444:22 20 437:21 439:2 445:5 452:13,
assumptions 548:21 15 457:17 478:23 479:2 481:4
approve 590:19
482:12 493:10,14,24 499:8
Athens 537:18
approximately 605:7,13 507:10 520:8 521:14 544:22
633:9,13,15 635:11 643:9 attached 505:16 572:13 578:14 579:9,16 580:2
647:5 653:4 582:19 585:20 596:19 598:17
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: background..broken
604:4,10,24 605:2,12 606:24 14,22 512:1,6,14 521:15,22 black 539:22
607:4 611:21,22,23 612:9
BCI&I 425:24 484:5 blame 594:14
614:16 616:18 617:1,18
619:13,20 620:7 622:8,20,24 beat 667:9 blanket 439:16 661:23 662:1,
624:6 625:1,22 626:13,14 3,7,17 664:8,9
bed 578:23 579:10 580:8
628:22 629:3,9 630:2 632:18,
20 635:21,23 636:1,23 640:2,5
603:15 621:2,4 655:6 656:21 blood 629:21 630:5,7
657:12 661:7,9,11 663:13,18,
643:6,14 644:6 645:16 646:22, Bobby 537:12,13
20 664:7,11,13,17
24 647:12,13 648:10 651:4,6
655:3,24 656:23 657:17 bodies 617:18 618:15 630:13
bed's 631:1
660:21 661:3,12,13 663:19 631:3
666:9,15 667:22 669:23 bedroom 578:13 580:7
body 431:2 523:21 554:10
670:12 617:18 629:6 630:3,9,12,19,20
616:9 631:14 668:19
632:15 645:6,8 653:18 654:1,
background 426:15 5,20 655:3,9,24 656:9 659:14, bolster 464:16
15 664:17
backroom 618:16 bolstering 529:2
backwards 491:23 bedrooms 654:17 660:3
bones 523:22
bad 586:24 beeline 655:18,24
boots 504:14
bailiff 433:23 439:10 444:18 beg 534:16
border 519:6
479:7 482:7,19 492:22 493:2 began 461:13
born 451:10 526:9,11
bailiffs 479:8 begin 483:22
bottom 558:5 559:7 563:17
bales 603:21,23,24 behalf 427:12 442:19 446:12 601:23
448:5,13 449:19 453:3 457:6
Ball 492:23 bought 504:19 508:5 514:17
577:16
bargain 453:4 577:20 578:5 bound 429:19 430:5 463:3
584:23 585:2
behavior 479:17,19 556:9
465:4,10
590:18,19
bark 634:19 boyfriend 594:14
belief 452:24
barking 634:23 635:5,7 636:6 boyfriends 590:14
believed 522:19 543:1 545:18
barn 592:21 break 481:17 489:7 494:6
believing 428:3 465:22
barrel 539:17 540:17 541:7 515:18 551:15,19 669:23
477:13 491:1,16 529:22
544:24 550:12 breaking 545:21
belonged 514:9 518:1,2
based 426:20 448:24 473:1 543:17 549:14 breaks 480:24 483:7
474:20 486:15 609:10
bench 434:2 492:8 493:18 briefly 459:1 468:14 469:13
basement 526:23 500:16 516:23 534:19 570:7 471:8
609:4 669:17
basic 558:13,14 bright 660:9
benefits 428:7 477:16
basically 428:17 456:24 brilliant 594:19
486:2 488:8,23 502:8 530:12 Beretta 549:9,13
532:11 561:3 582:18 607:5 bring 439:4,7 461:2 482:21
616:24 627:15 631:18 658:20
Beth 486:3,10,16,21 488:3 483:1,4,5 563:12
490:5 504:12 510:7 512:6
basics 530:14 broach 593:6
Bethel 526:15
basis 428:3 439:9 462:3 broadcast 450:6 451:14
big 454:6 592:21 618:22 452:21 461:24 463:15 466:15
465:22 477:13 478:1 479:4,14
662:12
496:14 498:3,4 500:20,22,24 Broadcasting 426:5 429:1
515:13 529:1 547:20 558:13 biological 434:20
570:1 577:23 broadly 450:21
bipolar 600:2,6
BCI 489:22 490:4 496:6 broken 507:4 523:22 545:15,
505:12 506:24 507:2,4,15 bit 435:17 440:12 515:18 19
508:12 509:9 510:22 511:12, 525:24 571:14 590:17
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: brother..charges
brother 474:23 476:3 486:9, 506:1,6 529:12,24 535:4 557:5 carry 597:10,12
20 490:13,22 491:3,11 495:13 586:13 595:11 600:6 601:8
cartridge 540:5
496:7 497:18,21 504:6 505:12
called 443:12 456:13 467:19
506:5 507:3 509:15 512:13 cartridges 540:6 544:23
512:21 541:4 564:18
519:3,4 520:4 521:22 524:8
case 425:7,10 426:11 427:17
527:6 533:10 537:14,15,17 calling 467:17 496:15
428:10,15,16,22 429:2,9 432:6
543:18 555:9 561:24 562:5
565:8 569:12 571:11,19,21
calls 443:19 444:14 492:1 434:8 440:17 443:21 449:21
452:1,2 457:11 459:4 461:3,7,
573:11,12,14,17 574:11 579:8 calm 513:11 582:16 615:23
10 462:4,8,16 463:13 471:1,24
585:11 623:4 625:19 628:24 616:24 617:4,6 618:5 625:4
472:15 473:3 474:23 480:5,17
brother's 508:11 531:21 calmed 612:11 483:23,24 518:7,22 530:8
532:1,5,16 536:12 551:20,21,
brought 438:3,4 481:19 calming 615:21 24 552:3,5,7 557:16 559:5,20
484:11 485:20 658:14
camera 481:4 482:8,13,14 565:17 568:21 608:16 670:19,
Brownie 520:18,23 619:1 21,22
Bruce 601:6,12 camera's 481:16 cases 441:2,13 444:7 460:7,
10 540:5 556:19
bucket 538:21 541:13,14,15 cameras 433:24
542:13 543:15 544:5 547:22 casings 624:17,23 649:7
camper 520:18 526:22 665:4,5,11,18
buckets 538:8 540:13 542:1 667:17,24
543:2,6 547:7 550:17 551:5 categorized 456:24
Canepa 425:22 437:22 443:24
bugged 510:16,18 512:10 456:21 463:24 466:23 477:7 caused 491:8 522:21 546:3
480:21 481:5,20 483:13 484:4,
build 514:18 592:21 cautions 591:11
13,24 485:12,14 487:10,17
building 620:8 488:1 492:16,19 494:17,23 cell 507:2 629:4 632:1,2,5,7,9,
495:10,11 496:20 497:5,9 11,14 649:8 665:7,9,19
bullets 624:13 648:19
498:3,8,13 499:7 500:8,11,22
central 460:7
Bulvine 526:11 556:12 599:1, 501:2,9,15 502:1 503:17 504:5
11 507:24 511:9 512:23 513:7 cetera 440:3 478:24 480:11
515:2,20 516:6 517:5,9,22,23 486:20 490:9 510:16 515:16
bunch 634:13
518:11,15,24 519:1 525:11
chain 453:8
bundles 603:21 529:5 534:2 535:7,19,24
536:10 538:3,11,15 540:16,18 chair 484:9,20 493:15 614:12,
burden 447:10,17 541:12,15,18 542:4,7,23 17,22,24 615:9,17 618:12
Bureau 564:6 543:8,11,20,23 544:12,15 625:8
545:12 546:6,9,15,18,24
burglaries 561:14 547:4,10,13 548:2,11 549:3,
chamber 648:20,21,24
burglary 559:24 573:7 17,20,24 550:4,7,10,19,22 chambers 450:15 493:4,9
551:14 552:18,24 553:4,5,20,
business 474:21 523:18 23 555:11 557:1 558:1 562:13 chance 442:15 450:15 453:22
570:13,18,24 571:17 574:1 454:14 465:21 521:11 556:11
bust-and-go 636:16 602:15 608:16
575:19 577:21,24 578:4 588:8,
buy 597:15 11,15 608:18,21 609:12,18 change 450:4 453:23 454:7
610:5 459:11 466:6 480:11 491:10
C capable 564:9 changed 428:17 449:2 455:3,
capital 459:4,5 4 462:13
C-288B 553:8
car 611:5 626:23 648:3,4 changing 454:17 467:13
caddy-corner 619:20 480:6
649:4 651:15 667:5
caliber 540:8,11 547:16,17 charged 528:4
549:22 550:6 583:15
care 493:8
careful 510:14 charges 528:7 556:16,17
call 444:15 452:11 458:19 557:6 565:20 567:12
464:17 486:17 489:20,22 carried 594:8
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: chart..concerned
chart 619:15 civil 564:21 collect 618:24
check 654:24 656:5 clack 659:11 collected 617:5,7
chest 530:13 Clarence 564:3 college 488:14
chickens 634:16 clarification 444:2 447:21 color 627:2
561:8
chief 441:15 Colt 505:10,15 508:5
clarify 574:21
child 578:8 582:3 591:12 Columbus 650:21
593:5 600:14,17,19 653:24 clarifying 445:7
comfortable 593:6
childhood 599:6 classification 452:1
commandeer 623:21
children 572:13 classified 451:23
commandeered 623:16
Chillicothe 468:5,7 469:11,15 Classroom 468:16
comment 463:11 490:22
470:5
cleaner 551:3 495:15 504:20 520:14,15
chilling 454:3,11 467:7 537:10,19,24
clear 447:7 458:5 463:13,17
choice 431:7 493:2 520:9 535:12 592:9 commission 564:2
615:13 652:22
choose 477:23 commit 513:19 514:1
clearout 471:15
chooses 441:3 committed 508:6 514:14
client 425:17,18 458:12 459:9 594:18
chose 597:1
client's 458:11 committing 519:22
Chris 495:20 511:22,24 515:3,
9,23 521:3,7,10 524:9 525:21, clip 648:23 common 428:13 429:2 450:20
23 526:12,18 527:5 564:2 451:6 470:19
close 537:7 605:24 606:1
572:2 581:5 582:6 583:9,24
621:13 635:12 communication 489:18
584:3 592:13 605:21 607:10
575:11,14
612:4,9 615:7 618:10 622:16, closed 428:23 461:19
18 625:10,21 627:11,12 communications 489:16
630:13 631:23 632:9 634:5
closer 653:11
510:18 560:17 561:18 609:10
655:1 662:7,12,13,14,16,20,21 closest 628:20
666:15,20
community 559:2
closet 516:14
Chris's 521:2 526:1 579:7 company 428:12 429:1 506:2
606:3 610:17 613:8 618:21 closing 428:17,20
comparing 445:23
621:1,11 625:12 628:3,11 closure 428:9 449:15,16
629:3,4,6 631:14 633:14 complaining 448:23
461:11
636:23 637:2,13 640:6,8 complete 449:16 461:11
643:1,5,10 647:12 651:3,7 clothed 661:18
469:6 533:21 534:8 563:21
652:5 653:8,18 663:15 664:5 cluster 618:22 567:3 585:17
666:10
coconspirator 501:3 completed 469:9
Christian 528:20 529:9
590:22 coconspirators 500:21 completely 438:21 564:16
576:20
Christopher 564:4 codefendant 455:16 457:4
472:18 compliant 514:7
Cincinnati 426:4
codefendants 451:1,3 complied 461:22 478:12
circumstance 440:21 456:18,19,20 472:14 474:4,16,
compromise 567:10
circumstances 431:18 499:3 18 566:15 569:9,10 571:4
concern 441:15,16 446:16,19
cite 463:13 coherent 558:11
462:8,13 473:21 591:5 599:11,
cited 428:10 coincidence 583:22 584:6, 14
14,17,19
cites 460:10 concerned 480:9,13 512:9
colleague 442:21 641:18
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: concerns..counsel
concerns 441:9 452:3 contacted 507:3 cooperating 455:21,22 456:5
468:21,24 469:2 473:9 507:1 569:16
contacts 552:6
511:10 596:20
cooperation 450:24 565:16
contained 427:18,19 505:13
concessions 533:1
cooperative 436:4
contemplate 447:18
concrete 538:8,21 540:13
cooperators 456:24
616:19 625:20 627:4 contempt 494:19
copy 448:10
condition 616:11 contend 453:16
Corey 594:15,17,18
conditions 453:4,17 659:23 contended 451:4
corner 538:23 540:2,10
conduct 471:15 560:24 contention 460:5
correct 426:8 458:3 485:9
conducting 484:7,20 contents 502:21 538:21
490:10,15 495:17 499:11,14
567:14
confess 530:21 503:3 504:23 505:5,8,17
context 453:23 507:17 508:21 511:19 521:15
confessed 530:1
527:23 533:21 537:3 538:9
contextual 455:7
confident 448:15 540:13 543:2,3,18 549:13
continue 447:5 460:24 463:23 554:20 556:19 559:8 561:6,11,
confiscated 519:6 15 562:20 572:11,14 573:8
489:6
confrontation 464:13 467:14 575:8 576:4 577:14,17 578:8,
continued 485:13 605:3 11 579:3,15 580:9,13 581:14
confronted 499:10 591:1 585:17,21,24 588:24 589:8
continuing 517:15
616:20 590:5,9,20 594:7,19 595:15,
continuous 485:4 19,21 599:12,24 600:2,7,19
confronting 496:6
contraband 469:20 471:14, 601:12 603:7,11,19 604:5,11
confuse 644:12 606:3 607:23 608:2 610:12,18
16
confused 644:11 613:20,23 618:7,10,13 619:3,
contraption 604:5 13 620:9,16,19 621:16,24
confusion 574:18 623:13 626:3,4,11 627:22
control 451:24 559:2
consecutive 558:12,14,21 629:7,17 630:6,10,19 633:24
controlling 444:20 634:10,17 636:4 637:11,18
559:7
convene 670:18 638:21 639:1,10,23 641:12
consecutively 566:7 642:2,5,10,14,21,24 645:3,16
convenient 669:7,9 646:21 648:7 649:4 651:3,10,
consideration 565:15 566:13
conversation 485:23 512:4 13 652:24 653:21 654:22
considered 471:1 569:23 655:14 656:6,19,20 658:10,11
517:6 520:24 522:2,5
581:13,19 665:16,17 667:6 668:3
conversations 481:22
consistent 534:11,23,24 correctional 468:5 469:11,
486:19 490:12,18 491:3,11,22,
570:2,11 12,23 470:5
24 504:13 505:2 513:18 519:4
conspiracy 560:2 561:23 521:17 corrections 451:23 456:3
conspirator 500:11 conveying 452:12 469:14
conspiring 561:24 convicted 571:11 correctly 641:8
constitutional 460:1,4,15 cool 617:4,6 correspond 566:20

461:20 463:14,19 corrupt 560:22 562:4
coon 636:6
constructed 603:14 costs 559:4
coonhounds 635:1,2 644:1
construction 540:17 counsel 425:13 427:7,8 448:7
cooperate 464:5 528:10
consulted 458:20 530:4 450:17 452:8 458:8,10 459:3,
21 480:15 481:21 482:6 492:6,
consulting 458:7 568:7 cooperated 450:23 466:3 8 493:5,18 495:5 500:16
contact 448:22 450:1 459:9 cooperates 466:1 501:20 516:23 517:17 534:19
536:5 552:7,8,16 570:7,19
609:4,22 669:17 670:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: counsel's..days
counsel's 428:21 450:3 459:8,10 461:2 481:8,19 cut 506:3 544:7 550:15 551:8
482:21 483:5,6 494:21
count 539:4 560:3 561:24 cutting 544:9,10
court-related 481:10,11
counts 559:21,24 560:9 561:4
565:22,23 566:1,7,8 572:20 courtroom 428:17,23 432:23 D
433:21 434:7,12,14,17,19,21,
County 428:13 449:6 452:16
22,24 435:3 437:3 447:8 448:7 dad 514:17 521:2 523:7,19
461:4 601:24
462:19 478:5,9,11,18 483:18 525:22 526:1,5,13 527:9 537:2
couple 435:14 437:7 438:23 484:14 492:17 493:23 552:21 538:1 539:9,10 586:24 587:9,
450:18 544:22 569:5 649:12 573:12,24 16 588:7 589:23 594:5,21
658:22 659:9 669:22 598:12,13 604:23 612:11,12,
courts 428:19 463:18
court 425:4,9,12,20 426:6,9, 15,23 615:5,6,20 616:24 618:5
cousin 538:1 625:4 626:21 628:13 632:21
16,17,21,24 427:6,13,14,16,
18,21 428:1,11,13,14,17,19, cover 432:17,22 442:21 635:16,20,22,23 636:12 639:3
20,23 429:2,3,9,16,17,18,19, 598:18 661:22 641:5,11,14 649:10,13,21
20,24 430:2,3,6,10,15,16,24 650:3,13,23,24 667:5,23
covered 662:3,7,16,21
431:2,3,4,7 432:10 433:6,10, dad's 531:16 537:14,15,17
13,14,16 434:3,15 435:2,6,18 covering 500:12 501:4 572:17 586:11 617:10 637:8 667:1
437:13,15 438:14 439:1,11 661:24 662:20
441:7,17,24 443:2 444:1,2,8, daily 452:16 601:6,12
19,22 445:3,7,10,18,22 446:1,
crawled 579:22 644:8,14
645:12 damage 546:1
4,8,9,18,24 447:7,11,19,22,24
448:1,6,12,21 449:13,14,20,21 create 460:13 473:9 474:12 Dana 564:4 572:2 581:20
450:16 452:5,11,22 454:16 584:2 593:11,13 638:3,4,23
455:11 457:3,5,15,21 458:21, created 455:3 460:14 543:6 648:2 656:18 657:12 658:8,23
23 459:19 460:6,10 461:20 creates 464:13 661:3 662:19 663:1
462:2,15 463:2,8,16,22 464:4, Dana's 579:8 619:8 638:1,2,6
7,9,16,20,23 466:22 467:3,15, crib 654:1,4
647:14,15,19,24 649:3 651:12
22 475:9,13 476:12,23 477:2, crime 426:6 500:12 507:17 652:19,20 654:15 655:9 657:1
5,8,10 478:2,3,6,10 479:8 628:18 669:5
480:4,9,24 481:1,3,6,13 482:1, danger 452:24 466:1,3,7
5,20 483:2,8,14,20,22 484:1, crimes 513:19 514:1,14
572:17 dangerous 510:21 560:6
15 485:1,3,8,11 487:7,15,21
492:6,9,11,15,18,20 493:1,4,8, criminal 450:21 451:18 456:9 dark 659:24
14,17,19,21 494:9,11,15,19, 457:3 471:24 472:15 473:3 date 475:22 500:1 568:17
20,24 495:1,8 496:14,17 474:23 563:22 564:6,21 601:9
497:2,8 498:4,10 499:1 500:7,
10,15,17 501:7,13,18,23 critical 462:7 dated 425:10
502:11 503:14 504:3 511:2,4 cross 453:23 dating 645:2
512:17,19 513:5 515:1,13,17
516:3,19,22,24 517:16,20 CROSS-EXAMINATION daughter 486:14 487:5,13,24
518:4,13,19 525:8 529:1,3 475:15 574:5 538:2 555:10,13 590:3,7
533:24 534:16,18,20 535:10 cross-examine 454:2 591:2,22
536:3,8 537:22 542:18 547:20, 475:11,14 574:3 daughter's 593:5
24 548:9,22 549:16 551:11,16
552:12,16,20,22 553:1,3 555:7 cross-examining 454:13 Dave 520:22
556:11 557:21 559:4,14 570:1, crossed 596:22 day 428:22 436:5,6 443:12
4,6,8,15,22 571:15 573:15,20
crying 658:12 448:21 455:14 466:16 478:7
574:3 575:22 577:8,23 578:2
482:9,11,13 483:22 601:8
588:17 593:10 600:21 601:5,7,
culture 472:6,8,13 473:24 607:22 638:16 669:24 670:9,
24 609:3,5 610:1,9 626:9,15
11,16
668:9,13 669:12,16,18,22 custody 499:11 528:5 553:15
670:4,8,17 556:12 591:21,23 601:5,15 days 451:10 454:23 534:4,8
641:24 642:22 536:14,24 644:16 654:10,13
court's 428:24 429:12 433:9
446:10 448:17,20 449:9,11,23
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: dead..documents
dead 595:24 596:1 615:9 denied 427:10 429:3,4 447:4 discard 663:24
618:13 625:10 629:7 649:14,
denying 427:13 disclosed 602:1,3
15 665:10
department 451:22 456:2 discomfort 467:10
deal 439:8,13 464:14 475:6
474:16 492:12,22 493:23
483:2 489:2 591:8 609:21 discovered 658:9
depression 577:3
Dealer 428:12 461:7,10,24 discovery 535:23
462:8 Deputy 492:23
discretion 447:8
dealing 438:15 476:8 479:15 Derek 494:18
483:4
discuss 500:20 523:2 551:20
describe 529:20 535:9 579:14 610:5 670:19,20
dealt 436:1 494:18 616:5,10,11 634:22 641:13
discussed 425:17 438:9
death 532:23 533:9 561:5 describing 513:23 628:12,15 551:22 599:8
565:19 566:18,20 567:20
584:22 585:8,11 663:21
desire 450:12 453:10 458:10 discussing 481:9 495:12
509:13
decade 623:10,11 desired 491:22
discussion 508:20 509:14
December 530:19 531:2 destroy 550:14
510:1 523:4
decide 431:15 463:7 556:18 detected 435:23 436:2 519:24
discussions 499:4 532:1,4
decided 528:10 556:11 587:8 determine 443:15 462:2
dishonest 602:5
494:1
591:3,13 640:2
dismiss 532:23 533:8 565:18
decides 429:20,21,22 463:8 determined 433:15
566:18
decision 428:24 442:16 445:4 Dewine 512:15
dismissed 561:5
449:14 461:5 463:6 464:10 diagnosed 576:8,11 577:2
disorder 576:6
488:6
diagram 610:14
decision-making 600:8 Dispatch 461:3
die 559:15 587:14,15
dispute 456:17
decorum 432:22 434:6
differ 431:19
defendant 425:7,14 446:12 disregard 525:9
455:15,21 457:6 470:24 difference 467:3
disrespect 458:8
471:24 472:23 473:4 483:18 differently 449:3 522:20
484:1 563:13,20 564:15 565:2 disrupting 438:18
571:23
566:5,24 573:17 distracted 434:9
difficult 443:14
defendant's 565:17 566:13 distracting 479:3
difficulty 435:18
defendants 472:15 566:19 distractive 438:21,22
direct 467:24 484:7,20,23
defense 427:8 440:10 443:10 485:13 district 425:9 427:18 444:2
444:14 453:22 458:19 459:20 445:7,22 463:2
475:10 477:3 480:15 485:1 directed 429:10 445:18
553:1 574:3 446:21 463:20 disturbances 471:12
deferential 449:10 directing 427:8 divorce 488:12 489:4
deficit 576:6 direction 491:6 660:17 DNA 600:22
definite 497:3 directive 478:12 docket 433:5
degree 441:22 directly 456:2 478:19 502:18 doctor's 524:15

507:2,3,8 655:10 660:14
delay 441:21 document 557:4,8 558:10
disagree 535:9 562:7,15,18,22 563:1 567:3,6
delays 444:16 577:11
disagrees 433:17
deliberation 552:1 670:24 documents 496:6,12,23
disappearing 596:12
497:11,24 499:11,13 501:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: dog..exercised
502:13,16 503:7 528:5 577:7 dyed 595:14 enhanced 453:14 476:8
585:23
dying 514:21 Enquirer 426:4
dog 520:17 521:9,11
dynamic 459:13 ensuring 469:20,23
dogs 521:2,3,5,6 634:13,19
enter 493:24 559:20,23
635:2,23 636:6,7 645:23
E 561:15 565:21 573:8 608:17
dominating 486:4
entered 475:18 483:18 531:13
door 545:5,20 546:2 606:12, earlier 565:5 609:10 622:10 614:19,20 617:23 644:9
13 619:17 620:6 622:5 629:17 646:11 662:11 670:10 652:24
630:20 631:2,19 632:16 early 481:16 531:2 entering 568:5
635:16 636:1 644:4 645:17
646:23,24 652:3,15,23 654:21 easiest 572:23 enters 451:22
655:13,17 657:2,4,6,10 666:4, edge 625:20 655:11,12 657:13
7 667:6,8,9,10,11,16
entire 602:2
educate 526:13 entitled 425:6 535:2,14,23
doors 636:3 657:1
Edward 425:3 426:12 431:6, entry 427:17 428:11
doorway 581:8 612:5 614:13, 24 477:11 484:8,19
14 630:24 envelope 507:20
effect 446:6 454:11 466:19
doubt 459:22 460:17 467:7 485:6 506:11,13 established 501:5 573:23
downstairs 434:14 436:12 effective 427:21 476:7 estimate 604:2
437:19 492:23
efforts 476:7,15 evading 513:24
dozen 604:3
eight-page 562:15 evening 484:19
dragged 617:17
elbow 658:19 events 499:22 564:1
DRC 452:12,14 456:11,13
468:10,22 469:7,10 470:4,15, elected 455:20 eventually 454:12 569:8
20 471:4,19 472:3,13 473:12 electronic 560:17 561:18 evidence 440:11 444:8,10
474:12 475:5 476:16 452:7 464:3,7,22 466:17,20
electronically 463:14 530:4 560:10 564:8,13 570:12
DRC's 476:7
eligible 559:1 583:4 608:7 668:5,16
drive 507:10 523:23 618:24
628:17 640:15 642:19 666:22 else's 624:4 evidentiary 449:22 452:6
driver 488:17 523:17 emails 489:20 Evitts 460:8,9
driver's 606:12,13 emergency 506:3 507:10 exact 498:22 528:7
driveway 637:18 651:19 emotion 612:20,21 examination 467:24 476:13

667:4 484:7,21,23 485:13
employees 467:1
driving 490:13,18 491:13 examine 467:22 485:11
empty 624:11
495:14 497:18 515:22 519:2 exception 436:2 479:18
521:22 637:4 640:12 666:12 encouragement 486:18,23
excerpts 425:2
drove 573:7 638:1 647:13,15 end 448:20 514:16 588:6,23
589:3 exchange 532:19 565:15
drug 524:23 629:11,12
endanger 428:4 462:5 477:14 exclude 479:14
due 460:15,19 534:5
endangering 556:3,9 excluded 434:4 479:6
duly 467:20
enforce 429:6 446:2 463:21 excuse 455:22 470:23
duties 469:14,22 471:5
enforced 433:23 executed 511:15
duty 480:8
enforcement 440:19 513:24 exercise 449:1 450:19
DVR 620:15 621:16,22 622:7
engaging 560:21 562:3 exercised 459:18 460:19,23
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: exercising..finality
exercising 448:17 521:10 522:2 524:8 525:1
F 527:5 533:14 549:13,14 555:9
Exhibit 507:22 538:13 541:16
561:24 562:5 565:10 569:12
542:5 543:9,21 544:13 545:10,
face 461:16 462:4,8,19 467:4 571:10,11,18,21 581:2,13,17
24 546:7,16,24 547:2,11
616:14 582:11 587:24 588:14,23
548:3,4 549:18 550:2,8,20
589:2,7,10 592:5,6,9 623:4
553:8,20,21 556:23 562:11 Facebook 561:19 578:23 625:19 628:24 642:4
577:12 607:13,19 630:15
facilities 468:22 650:18 father's 616:11
exhibits 602:10,14
facility 472:7 650:19 fear 591:2 593:21
exist 477:12
facing 584:22 585:8,11 feared 588:22 589:1 590:3
exists 428:2 466:6
fact 429:9 433:20,24 464:12 591:13,16,22 642:3
exited 622:5 665:2,3 465:8 470:22 473:7 474:9 fears 592:6
expand 431:11 489:4 490:1,21 501:4 504:14
506:1,24 507:6 536:11 549:8 federal 463:18
expanded 472:21 556:13 564:12 573:22 600:21 feel 430:16 431:18 435:24
expect 479:20 608:15 436:13 445:17 446:7 448:15
factor 471:1 480:1 452:22 454:17 465:5 482:24
expecting 639:12,14 494:1 522:16 593:18,20
expeditiously 441:11,19 factors 448:9 465:14,16
feeling 507:3
experience 440:3 441:14 facts 446:22 552:2
feels 442:14 448:1
472:5 473:2 474:21 641:11,13 failed 549:10 567:22
feet 504:8 631:2 657:13
explain 442:13 447:11,16 fair 463:22 480:8 486:5 534:3
514:5 569:17 584:7,8 613:16 554:24 573:4 590:17 631:8 fell 660:21
616:8
fairly 441:11 447:9 481:7 felt 445:14,15 486:3 487:11,12
explained 592:6 522:19 529:10,20 586:3 593:5
fairness 428:4 446:16 453:21 594:3
explaining 439:17 591:22 454:1,7,21 455:3,9 457:11
596:20 458:15 462:5,9 465:18 466:18 female 521:11
explanation 449:11 450:14 477:14 480:7,11 fewer 451:13
exposed 599:12,20 fake 488:12 489:4 fiancée 524:9
express 450:18 459:18 fallen 663:18 fights 470:19
551:23 670:22 false 567:8 577:24 609:12 figure 581:20 642:4
expressed 448:16 falsely 567:8 figured 507:6
expressing 450:12 familiar 428:14 447:24 file 427:9 446:22 593:10
extensive 468:16 475:17,18 525:20 630:16
631:12 633:24 634:12 filed 427:4,6,11 461:8 591:21
extent 453:13 517:5 531:18,
family 451:3 474:9,11,18 filings 439:20
21 572:18 592:23
490:9 497:10 503:18 506:2 film 457:9
extents 572:8 507:9 510:14 515:11 518:2
523:2 524:4,19,22 525:16 filmed 426:19,23 431:8,16
extracted 504:23
533:2,5,9,19 556:17 564:18 442:2 477:24 478:24 480:17
extremely 449:10 565:4 567:21 571:9 590:9,12, filming 433:11 454:19 477:17
13 599:9 602:2 641:9 642:14
eye 580:17 584:12,15,16,20 478:22
657:7 668:3,22 fan 595:24 filter 541:5 542:4,11
eyelets 603:19 fancy 453:7 final 446:6 451:9 562:18
fashion 466:8 finality 563:12
father 504:6 509:15 520:11
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: finally..George
finally 461:2 551:24 670:23 forehead 659:19,20 660:12, frozen 658:9,14
23 661:1
financial 559:4 frustrated 522:8
foresee 442:11
find 477:10 494:2,4 537:5,9 frustration 512:21,24
538:7 621:16 625:8 630:12 forever 523:23
fulfill 453:3
648:1 664:7 665:7,19
forged 496:7 501:4
full 461:18 556:11 563:24
finding 444:11 549:1 621:21
forgery 528:4 560:12 576:1 591:21,23
findings 428:20 444:9 445:13,
Fork 571:20 572:11 fully 449:11 459:6 567:3
14
573:21,22 646:6,8,9
form 448:17 466:8 480:13
finds 428:1
530:12 551:23 670:22 function 448:20 471:11
fine 434:20 435:6 479:22
forward 431:21 441:23 443:9 fundamental 449:8 453:21
559:3 574:8 576:22
445:9 454:8,9 458:1 486:1 460:8,15 461:20 462:1
fingerprints 504:7 534:13 569:18 607:2 616:18,
fundamentally 449:15,17
20
finish 450:5 460:6 461:6
found 471:14 529:6 537:3
finished 614:5,6 funeral 520:16,23
547:22 580:8 618:9,12 620:15
fire 492:11,22 493:23 494:2,5 628:24 641:19 funny 664:2
582:20 585:12 606:19 624:9
foundational 450:18 future 452:20
648:14
four-hour 444:16
firearm 558:20
G
Fourth 425:9 427:18 445:22
firearms 468:19
463:2
fired 583:11,20 606:16 607:8 game 459:11 462:13
frame 515:14 519:12
611:24 612:12 613:20,23 garage 618:24
614:3 615:7,16 624:21,22 Frankie 527:6 564:3 572:2
626:2,11 627:22 649:2,5 583:24 584:19 633:23 634:13 Gary 527:7 564:3 582:8,23
646:20 647:1 648:14,16 583:23 614:23 615:8,17
firing 613:7 614:5 617:23 618:12 625:8 629:4
649:12,13,21 650:4,13,23
firsthand 456:4 632:11 662:7,16
Frankie's 545:6 579:20 633:2,
fish 509:2,6 21 636:19 640:10 643:6,15 Gary's 520:16,23 630:13
648:12 653:6 gasp 658:24 659:12
fitness 468:17
Franklin 449:6 461:4 gasping 659:13
fitting 540:23
frankly 445:20 467:6 480:7 gate 605:18
fittings 541:1,3
fraud 600:24 gave 562:9 625:1 649:9
five-minute 457:14
Friday 670:12,18 Geauga 428:12
flash 667:20
friend 488:11 Geer 461:4,7,24 462:10,15
flashlight 539:8,10,11,13
540:17 friendly 592:13 general 443:24 462:9 472:4,8,
floor 618:10 625:10 657:8,16 friends 490:9 16,20 477:22 479:5 491:20
512:15 522:3 575:17,24
flow 435:22 front 436:5,14,15 438:22 576:13
500:20 504:13 578:20,21
flows 460:5 582:3 601:23 611:20 619:17 generally 443:7 451:17 456:8
Flying 538:9 620:6 628:13 629:17 631:19 gentlemen 484:16 551:18
632:16 635:16 639:7 644:4 670:8
focus 540:16 668:23 669:2 651:22 652:2,15,23 654:21
folks 473:10 655:13,17 659:17 666:4 gently 663:19
follow 429:10 430:5,16 431:3 froze 657:22,23 658:2 George 425:7 438:2 452:12
446:7 447:5 612:8 618:3 483:23 505:2 506:19 514:20
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: Gilley..Havener
519:18 525:5 565:9,10 566:16, 437:14 438:24 440:5 442:8 hairline 663:7
17 573:12,17 574:11 586:5,9, 464:20,22 465:1 475:13,16
half 455:14 555:14 616:18
18 587:19,23 588:16 612:9 476:24 477:1,8,9 479:22
643:8 663:18
622:16,20 624:6 625:1 626:21 481:14 482:2,3
628:13 632:20 666:17 halfway 616:21
Greiner's 460:16
Gilley 564:4 580:9,16 584:2, hall 632:15 659:21
grew 526:5,18
16 646:21 647:2 650:24
hallway 629:15 630:2 631:18
grief 522:21
girlfriend 580:9 655:8,10 656:9 659:2,10
grounds 504:21 660:11 661:8
give 426:14 468:2 494:6,21
499:18 504:7 506:13 530:14 grow 618:23 620:9,11,23 hand 433:3 507:19 508:8,19,
567:8 585:17 604:2 610:24 621:8,14,18 622:3,5,24 624:7 21 509:3,22 549:9 562:14
621:9,10 624:6 653:11,13 625:14,16 610:24 617:15 649:10
giving 427:7 442:12,14 grows 525:20 526:1 527:10 handful 460:9
519:10
gruesome 669:4 handgun 506:22 546:21
glasses 575:3,5,6
Guardian 426:6 432:7,8 handling 602:23
glob 544:17
guarding 513:17 hands 616:14
Glock 539:24 543:20 544:2,22
547:6
guess 430:20 431:17 442:11 hands-on-your-head 616:17
443:17 444:1 452:16 463:9
God 529:12,20 569:22 616:16 handwriting 499:18,21 502:7
478:23 479:24 486:15 497:5
503:3 509:13
512:22 513:15 522:22 524:9
good 425:4 433:15 483:20
484:16 485:15 551:14 573:1
526:12 529:18,24 530:12 Hanna 527:6 555:16 564:4
545:9 572:23 586:8 659:11 572:2 584:4 586:11,19 589:11,
574:7,9 585:3 590:22 591:14
21,24 590:8,10,11,16 591:1
594:1 618:4 630:7 guilt 559:23 565:21
594:6,10 595:1 597:8 600:13
good-looking 574:15 guilty 557:12 560:2,5,9,12 634:2 644:23 648:16 655:22
561:3,9,13 572:19,22 578:7 658:18 659:12
government 460:12 491:23
608:20
Hanna's 553:15 579:8 655:3,
governor's 456:1,10
gun 504:22 508:8,19 509:3,20 18 663:5
grabbed 616:22 518:12,14,15 538:23 606:3
Hannah 564:3 580:9,15 584:1,
611:24 623:1,2,5,7,8,12,17,24
grand 558:20 564:20 15 646:21 647:1 650:24 660:4
624:3 625:1 630:24 651:4,6
granddaughter 593:22 happen 456:5 463:19 470:20
guns 515:5,10,24 516:13
479:12,13,15 523:2 556:16,17
Grandma 509:12 518:17
571:22
grandmother 499:11,17,21 gunshot 583:15
happened 435:13,14 501:6
500:2 502:7,11,15,23,24 503:1
guy 574:15 527:13 531:5 532:17,20
509:16 510:5 512:10 516:10
535:20,22 536:12 556:14
528:4 529:7 guys 476:9 489:15 490:6
591:7
496:10,21,24 497:8 503:11,13
grandmother's 502:23
504:18 505:3,20 506:1 511:11, happening 480:23
grants 488:13 12 512:9 513:19 515:5 519:15
hard 602:23 618:24
520:5 521:5
grass 619:13,21 620:7 625:13,
harder 443:21
20 632:21
H harm 428:4,6 462:5,11 465:23
great 440:22 447:8
477:14,15 513:1
greatest 577:20 584:23 585:1 H-O-R-T-O-N 468:3 harming 512:14
green 544:23 hacking 561:19 hate 457:13
Greiner 426:1,3,8 427:4,12 hair 514:21 554:7 595:14 Havener 488:4 511:15
432:3,9,14 435:4,7 436:22
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: hay..image
hay 603:21,24 605:17 621:4 hide 514:10,11 hope 440:9 453:4 639:19
hazard 493:23 494:2,5 high-powered 581:8 582:7 hoping 555:23 639:16
583:10
Hazel 580:9,16 584:1,15 horror 616:16
646:21 647:2 648:16 650:24 higher 474:24
Horton 467:18,19 468:3,4
he'll 425:18 highest 474:17 475:17
head 578:14,20,21 579:2,5,9, Hill 526:15 571:19 572:10 hour 551:18 605:24 606:1
16,17,18 580:13 581:23 582:3, 579:20 581:2 592:19 604:8,14 621:6,7 633:16,17 643:8
24 583:12,23,24 584:1,2,3,4,5 605:4,11 628:20
hour-plus 633:19
616:14 659:17 660:20 661:5,6,
hired 468:10
20 664:14 house 486:10,14 500:3 512:7
history 577:20 584:24 585:2 516:11 526:22,24 545:6 554:4
headlights 667:7
578:10,22 579:20 582:7
hit 584:12 612:4,15,23 659:4
headquarters 456:14 464:19 592:18 593:1 618:8 629:3
660:12,20,22,24 663:7
633:2 638:1,2,4,6 640:15
health 575:9,13,16 576:3,9
hmm 488:5 514:5 643:5,6 645:13 666:15
599:23
hold 626:12 648:19 649:11 housed 468:22
hear 436:16 443:6 444:10
445:3 464:9 478:2 481:23 holding 505:10 508:8,19 housing 469:17
494:10 518:8 542:16,19 543:5 509:1,6,20
howling 645:23
557:20,22 574:22 582:20
home 488:4 509:13 510:15
614:1 620:2,5 628:5 658:12 Hughes 495:21
511:15 512:10 520:5,8,13
heard 432:12 436:8 442:15 521:14 579:7 580:3 613:8 human 453:5
465:5,19 466:19,20 473:12,18, 623:2 633:24 636:4,10 638:20,
Humm 669:8
23,24 474:2 481:15 482:10 23,24 640:21,23 642:19 647:4
498:16 499:6 512:21 518:13, 648:5 652:19,21 653:2 654:18 hundred 497:14 527:7
19,21 525:6 583:19 614:8 667:4
hunting 544:23
hearing 425:5,8,19 427:7,24 homemade 471:16 505:16
428:19 430:12 431:5,7,9,23 hysterical 582:13 613:4 616:6
432:4 433:22 434:23 438:9,11
homes 531:13 585:10
439:12,21,23 440:8 441:8,11 homicide 506:23 508:6 I
442:4,5 443:3,22 444:5,6,7,8, 549:11 554:17
24 445:2,11,12 448:1 449:22 idea 438:16 439:12 444:12
450:11 452:6 461:14 462:24 homicides 491:21 513:15
519:22 520:4,7,12 521:13 586:19,24 589:11,17 629:9
464:3 483:5,11 492:10 493:6, 637:6 642:12,16
20 495:6 500:2,18 501:21 522:3,10 531:9 536:22 548:15
502:9 517:1,18 534:21 536:6 554:8,11,14,23 555:13 563:14 ideally 440:6
555:8 570:9,20 575:1 609:6,23 564:2,18 565:4 572:7
identical 627:20
619:23 669:19 670:6 honest 435:16
identification 507:23 538:14
hearings 440:1 481:13 495:2 honesty 519:15,18 541:17 542:6 543:10,22
hearsay 501:1,2 525:10 Honor 426:8 432:9,14 437:22 544:14 545:11 546:8,17 547:3,
608:24 439:10 440:5 442:9 443:24 12 548:5 549:19 550:3,9,21
448:11 453:18 463:24 465:3 553:22 556:24 562:12 564:7
heavier 599:13
466:21,23 467:23 477:1,7,9 identified 565:5 573:16
heightened 455:24 466:1 479:22 480:21 481:20 482:19 610:17,21 622:10
484:13,24 485:2,12 493:16
held 428:1,19 514:13 650:16 identify 573:14
495:10 497:5 500:8 514:24
helped 572:6 592:21 597:10, 517:22 518:11 534:14 551:15 identity 441:5
12 552:11,18,24 553:4 570:3
573:14 574:2 575:19 588:8 III 565:11 566:17
hesitant 454:6
608:18 610:3 image 631:12
hidden 488:9
honored 461:1
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: imagine..issues
imagine 459:16,21 influx 471:13 intended 434:11 498:7 588:2
immediately 427:21 478:11 inform 479:9 482:13 intends 431:2,7
539:6,14 601:15 606:9 624:21,
information 437:24 473:8 intent 530:3 563:12 572:1
22 658:18 659:9
538:5 555:17,23 556:5,10
intention 434:13 581:11
immense 522:21 523:22 563:21,23 567:9 583:5,7
intentionally 430:7,9 482:20
impact 432:21 458:22 informed 433:22 434:3
567:8
480:22 502:14,17,18 583:2,14,
impacted 432:16
16 interact 450:8 472:8
impacts 466:18
informing 426:17 431:2 interception 560:16 561:17
importance 482:1
infractions 468:18 interest 440:22 441:1 448:15
important 441:16 448:23 458:11 459:24 460:4 489:9
inhale 659:13
improper 517:8 529:2 534:22 interested 439:17 441:9
initial 468:20
570:12 442:10,19 465:7 481:12
initially 448:16 503:12,19
improperly 436:1 interests 461:21
537:2 567:12
impulses 600:8 international 442:7
inject 454:23
inappropriate 479:19 Internet 451:16
injured 470:13,16 476:17
Inaudible 494:8 609:17 interpretation 448:3,4
inmate 451:21 452:4 465:15
incarcerated 450:23 469:19 470:24 471:2,23 472:1, interrupt 435:5 457:13
22 473:4,9 474:22 475:4
incident 527:12 interruption 457:22
inmate's 465:17
incident-by-incident 479:4, interviews 535:3,15
14 inmates 450:23 456:6,23
introducing 430:24
466:2 468:22 469:2,24 470:2,
incidents 471:21,22 6,9,12,16,17,20 472:6,7,14,16 inverted 630:17,18 631:7,8
include 561:24 473:5,13,23 474:4,8,10 476:16
invertedly 631:13
included 440:4 innocent 585:9
investigation 521:15,18
includes 451:1,2 inordinate 441:22 563:22 564:7
including 427:23 552:7 input 433:7 441:24 involved 444:4,6,13 450:21
563:24 564:1,19 565:6 587:15 451:18 453:16 517:3 523:17
inside 603:18 612:10,12
595:13 621:2 525:22 549:5 642:5
614:2,8,15 617:17 618:8,9
incomplete 567:9 620:11 621:4 625:3,6 636:9 involvement 531:8,16,19,22
653:2 667:23
incorporates 567:3 involves 425:8
insomnia 577:4,5
incriminating 491:13,18 involving 439:16 601:20
556:2,5,9 inspections 494:13
irrational 600:8
incumbent 440:15 instance 520:4 561:17
issue 428:1 431:5 432:14
indicating 454:16 611:1 institution 451:24 468:5 433:4 435:9 438:8,9,15 439:11
471:12 450:2,3 451:6 452:8 454:15
indication 466:7,16
455:2,3,9 456:3,14 457:24
institutions 472:9,13 474:19
indictment 557:6 561:4 461:12 464:14 467:13 478:3,
565:23,24 566:8 instructive 444:3 15 480:16 517:4 563:14
indifferent 465:12 integrity 455:6 issued 427:13 429:23 446:5

individual 439:9 452:3 540:20 intelligently 568:6 issues 426:16 430:1 432:3,11
446:13 450:22 454:10 455:22
individuals 457:2 519:23 intend 431:23 443:2 458:19
456:4 474:12 575:10,13,16
561:11 565:8 573:3 530:8
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: item..laughing
item 539:15 541:19 542:8,12 judgment 427:17 428:11 killed 476:17 561:11 588:13
543:24 547:1 551:2 591:15 594:2,6,18 602:1 641:1
judicial 451:14 464:4 559:2
646:20,21 647:1 653:14
items 538:11 539:15 540:1,3,
Julyish 650:14
12,20 543:1 544:1,4 553:7 killing 519:23 578:7 585:8
jungle 596:12 592:3 596:10,23 642:12,13
IV 452:13 483:24 565:9 566:16
573:18 Junior 564:5 killings 584:9
Junk 425:21 484:3 563:4 kills 642:9
J 608:24
kind 432:21 439:21,23 440:20
jurisdiction 429:24 430:15 445:24 446:13 469:15 471:9
Jacob 425:3 426:12 431:6,24 431:4 445:18 446:9 488:2 489:18 491:10 504:10
445:12 477:11 484:8,19 507:5 555:22 616:14 642:8
jurors 623:20 663:18
jail 449:7 452:17 576:9 650:16,
17 jury 434:9 438:3,13 479:3 kitchen 629:16,23 632:15
482:10 484:10,14 492:10
Jake 445:2,4 448:22,24 450:4 493:6,20 494:14 495:6 500:18, knew 495:16 506:24 507:15,
451:7 452:19 453:15 459:12 21 501:21 517:1,18 525:9 16 593:19 599:5,23 600:11
460:2,18,21 461:23 462:11 534:21 536:6 552:17,21 555:3 638:14 641:14,16 653:23,24
475:17,18 485:17 502:3 564:20 570:9,20 573:21 654:7,14,20 656:24
517:24 538:16 553:6 571:18 603:13 607:17 609:6,23
573:10 577:10 578:6 595:10, knife 544:24 545:2,5,13 546:3
669:19 670:6
11 602:14 645:18
just-- 664:2
Jake's 448:15 453:10,20 knowing 597:18
justice 450:22 451:18 456:9
January 531:3 knowingly 568:6
560:19
jarred 660:21 knowledge 450:20 452:23
juvenile 428:16,18 449:14
472:5 473:1 474:20 498:7
Jason 437:17,24 439:3 494:3 461:5,11,14 462:5 564:20
510:10 523:8,14 524:21 527:8,
552:20 601:5,24
9 549:2 551:4 591:17 601:14
Jo 565:9 566:16 juvenile's 462:19 668:8,11
job 438:17 459:15 478:20 Kylee 600:13,14 654:10

608:10 618:4 K 658:12 663:20
John 425:12 426:1 484:2

Katy 538:1 L
574:10,14
Ken 640:16,19 641:7,8,14,16,
join 452:9
19,22 642:12,16 643:6 668:3 labeled 473:20
judge 425:15 429:5,6,10
Ken's 584:11 640:15 666:20, ladies 484:16 551:18 670:8
430:23 434:1 446:15 457:12,
22 668:16
13 458:4 461:4,5,12 462:17 laid 538:9 578:23 581:3 604:4,
463:10 468:2,10,14 469:13 Kenneth 520:18 527:6 572:3 10
471:8 472:12 475:12 482:4
Kenneth's 561:15 573:7 lamp 660:7
483:12 484:12 487:6,14,20
492:14 494:12 496:13 497:1 Kentucky 524:17 Lane 488:4 511:16
498:2,24 500:6,19 504:2
510:24 512:16 513:3 515:12 key 619:6,8 620:13 652:5,8 language 427:19,20 429:14
462:21 616:9
516:16 517:2 518:3 525:7 keys 618:21,22 619:5,6,12
528:24 533:22 535:6,12 625:13 631:15,23 632:3,4 laptop 519:5
537:21 542:17 547:19,21
548:6,20 549:15 557:19 kill 572:2,21 581:11 586:11 large 540:21 618:22
559:14 569:24 570:10 571:13 588:2 589:2,11,21,24 591:3
late 438:21 448:20 449:23
574:4 577:6 591:22 601:24 594:17 595:1 598:14 638:20
531:2 582:19 617:1
609:1 610:4,6,7 669:14 639:1 640:17,19 642:5,9,16,
17,20 655:20,22 laughing 664:1
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: law..make/model
law 426:6 428:18 440:19 life 557:18,24 558:15,22,24 510:7 607:22 627:16 656:2,4
463:13,17 494:11 513:24 559:7,17 566:6 588:23 657:2,4,7 658:18 659:12
552:2 667:10
lifestyle 591:17 599:2,12,21
laws 446:22 loss 524:5,13
light 514:4 660:4,6,10
lawyer 596:15,20 601:6,12 lot 436:5 521:17 524:16
lighted 660:8
662:2 529:16 533:6 608:7 619:5
lighting 659:23 624:10,11 629:21 630:5
lawyers 441:13 528:14 529:17
634:16 664:20,21
530:1 583:3 585:20 608:5,15 lights 660:1,2,3
lots 508:19
lay 447:15 448:19 579:9 limited 450:12 563:24 564:19
565:7 loud 558:8 635:1,2
laying 580:8,20 611:13,14,19
618:10,12 625:10 656:21 lines 486:5 528:17 594:13 louder 574:23
657:12 661:12,17 616:24 617:3 636:14
loudly 634:23
lead 564:12 linked 517:13
loved 597:8
leading 511:1,3 513:4 519:22 list 504:22 505:3 517:13
lower 538:22 540:2
533:23 564:1 570:16 571:14 518:12,14,16,17,21 640:17
572:6 651:23 641:22 Lucasville 456:22,23
leads 600:7 listed 565:6 Lucey 460:8
leaned 580:11 listen 439:14 491:23 552:4 lunch 494:6
593:20
learn 468:21 469:1 471:21,22 lying 528:19 529:17 664:7
489:8,21 515:3,9,23 528:9,15 listened 490:14 491:2 514:8
learned 472:3 496:5 528:12 listening 490:23 495:16 M
590:18 513:20 519:3
leave 426:2 434:12,14,21,22 lists 566:19 made 428:19 445:4,24 485:21
478:18,22 516:13 636:18 486:2,8 488:5 490:22 495:14
637:10,15 649:2
live 537:15,17 634:2 520:14 522:9 526:21 535:1
lived 638:7 644:23 537:10,24 592:9 655:24
leaving 434:19 488:3 637:13 658:24 659:13
led 522:24 537:20 599:2 lives 490:5,8 537:18
magazine 539:24 541:22
left 435:9 485:18 489:15 512:3 living 486:13 490:6 499:9 544:22,23 546:13,21 547:6
504:12 511:18,23
516:10,14 571:20 572:11 magazines 546:21
604:5 605:6 629:19 631:1 local 433:13,19
637:21,22,23 651:2 658:22 Maglite 505:16
664:16,17,18 665:13,16 location 564:7
main 446:19
667:10 lock 666:7
maintain 450:13
left-hand 538:23 locked 636:13 657:2 667:12
major 471:13,16
legal 453:8 468:17 500:20 long 434:2 438:18 439:3 450:9
564:17 596:21 601:14 468:6 478:9 479:1 482:16 major/minor 469:19
legitimate 500:23 530:20 531:3 605:12,19 majority 517:12
620:21 633:3,4,13 636:19
length 554:7 643:4,7 644:16 647:4,18 make 433:10 442:15 443:14
652:18 653:2,8 658:1,3,4 444:10 445:13,14 446:2,13
level 453:5 456:12 460:16 448:8 453:9,18 454:15 458:5
667:23
467:10 460:16 464:10,18 469:3 473:4
liability 459:6 longer 523:24 551:12 638:9 482:8 507:9 512:14 521:20
653:6 522:16 537:19 594:17 613:18
lie 528:19 529:8 530:18 655:17
longest 652:20
lied 598:18 make/model 506:21
looked 472:16,19 509:22,23
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: makers..move
makers 463:21 member 451:3 miscellaneous 523:6
makes 443:21 474:17 554:10 members 435:24 452:12 misleading 567:9
648:24 456:16 464:2 466:24 474:9,11,
misspoken 435:8
18 556:17 567:21 642:14
making 444:8 469:18 477:22
mixed 574:16
504:20 506:6 593:24 668:11 memorandum 427:11 446:21
463:12 mm 547:17,21 548:13
mandatory 558:19 559:1,11
memory 630:7 631:6,10 mobile 653:2
manner 511:8 565:18
669:4,6
modification 449:23 459:8
March 532:9
mental 576:3 599:23
modify 459:11
marginal 466:7
mentioned 427:5 436:10
modifying 461:7
marijuana 525:5 526:5,19 443:10 478:16,20 479:21
490:4 498:17,21 molested 590:8 591:2,23
marked 507:20,22 538:13
541:16 542:5 543:9,21 544:13 merits 429:20,22 463:8 465:9 mom 486:8 586:5,9,17 597:15,
545:10,23 546:7,16 547:2,11 21 599:1,2,5 634:3
mess 649:9
548:4 549:18 550:2,8,20
553:8,21 556:22,23 562:12,15 message 505:12 moment 443:5 448:21 457:17
462:12 516:18,21 571:9
607:19 630:15
met 536:15 574:12 616:21 602:14 658:15,21 669:15
materials 535:2
method 526:18 moments 434:1
matter 444:21 451:13 459:20
Mexico 596:11 Monday 448:21 485:5
465:8 477:6 493:9 498:19
501:10 530:2 573:22 609:14 Meyers 426:11 448:11,13 monitored 561:22
664:1 670:3 451:19 453:2 454:3,10 455:12,
17 456:7 458:2,12 459:1
monitoring 598:21
matters 452:10 481:9,10,11
464:11 563:6 month 489:7 530:23 638:8
563:13
mid 531:2 months 475:23 537:7 558:17,
maximum 558:12,13,16,21,22
23 650:5,6
559:2 middle 458:6 539:22 578:10
580:5 585:10 610:18 611:20 Mooney 426:10 563:6
means 432:24 480:1,3 502:3
559:17 623:22 midnight 643:12 morning 425:4,18 449:21
meant 514:12 559:15 591:9, 456:14,16,22 466:19 483:20,
Midnightish 643:11
10 639:22 21 484:16 485:15,16
midstream 454:22 459:12
measured 504:8 462:14 464:13 467:13 480:6
mother 496:7 497:21 498:17,
20 499:16,20 501:9 502:10
measures 474:14 mike 626:9 503:23 504:19 509:15 520:8
524:8 527:6,13 533:12 555:9
med 488:13 military 527:14
561:20 562:1,5 565:9 569:12
media 427:4,23 432:17,19 mind 439:24 449:3 576:19 571:10,21 572:10,14 578:7,23
433:2,9 434:6,10 435:24 594:7 596:22 581:20 582:2 597:3 598:18,21
436:3,13,14 437:10 438:5 602:2 623:5 653:24 656:6
439:3 440:16 444:5,13 447:2
mine 440:5 545:3
452:8 460:17 461:19 463:13
mother's 531:18 656:9
minor 441:3 561:1
478:17,18 479:19 481:1,12 motion 427:3,4,6,10,13
482:23 510:22 511:11 minute 492:7 613:10,11,12
463:12 616:9 658:24
616:3 633:7,8 643:19 647:20,
media's 459:23 21 648:11 658:4 motive 489:3
medication 524:5 576:12,17 minutes 433:22 437:7,10 motorcycle 618:24
438:5 450:7 457:18 551:18
medications 523:19,20 move 441:23 486:16 488:11
604:7 605:14 615:18,19,22
576:23 520:19 602:22 609:20 610:8
620:22 633:16,17 636:21
656:10
medicine 525:17 647:6 653:5,10 658:6 664:24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: moved..ODRC
moved 606:24 657:17,19 nervousness 466:10
O
movie 595:24 Newcomb 495:20,21 503:2
509:18 515:4,9
moving 486:21 oath 452:17 453:12 459:18
Newcomb's 503:19 466:10,11,13 485:4,8
multiple 440:1 489:1 539:5
579:2,9 580:12 582:23 583:11, news 427:5,12 object 426:19 431:15 433:12
16,23,24 584:1,2,3,4 627:13, 440:17 441:6 443:4 445:1
nice 435:16 537:24
14 447:11,21 458:5 514:23
night 532:22 536:22 546:3 539:22 575:19 588:11,15
multivitamin 576:24
571:19 572:7,10 578:11 580:5 608:21
murder 559:21 565:20 566:9 585:10 603:7,15 605:9 613:23
572:20 581:1 586:14 588:6 634:7,13 639:20 644:10,15,16 objected 426:22 429:8 431:8
589:3 597:22,24 655:21 645:15 objection 440:18,20 441:6
668:17 459:20 487:6,8,14,20 496:13,
nightclothes 656:22 661:15
murders 517:4 561:9 562:1 24 497:4 498:2,4,24 499:2
nightgown 661:14 500:6,13,23 501:24 503:13
595:15,17 596:4 597:10,19
598:3,22 601:3,4,11,16,17 NNN-1 602:11 603:3 606:6 504:2 510:24 512:16,18 513:3
603:7,16 641:19 610:21 622:9 515:12,19 516:2,16,17,19
517:15,20 518:3,5,23 525:7,9
Myer 493:22 NNN-2 603:9 528:24 533:22 534:14,15
Myers 432:8 494:18 535:11 536:8 537:21 547:19
NNN-3 603:9
548:1,6,10,20,23 549:15 555:7
noise 659:11 569:24 570:17,22 571:13
N 575:23 577:21,22 578:3
nonoral 427:6 445:11
588:18 668:7,14 669:11,13
name's 574:10 normal 458:9
objectionable 518:9,10
names 565:5 576:20 notarize 499:13 549:1
narrow 631:18 notarized 496:11,22 497:11, objections 483:8 536:4

24 503:6
Nash 425:13 457:7 475:12 objects 426:22 442:2 538:17
484:2 574:13,14 609:17 Note 516:16,17 547:19 549:15
obligated 460:13
Nashville 488:11,14,17 489:5 notes 535:14,23
observant 514:8
National 429:1 notice 438:5 440:7,12 443:22
observation 472:4
451:14 464:4 495:3 580:21
natural 451:10 651:15 668:24 observed 487:9 525:12
nature 453:5 564:21 588:18 600:10
noticed 646:3 658:24
necessarily 441:21 445:2 obstructing 560:19
notified 438:8,10 444:6
491:15 508:15 577:4 590:13 obtain 524:1 556:8
notify 439:22 480:12
necessity 443:17 462:24 obvious 440:23 450:3 453:2
notion 587:19
neck 579:4 659:6 461:19
notoriety 452:1
needed 434:13 450:10 510:14 occasion 490:22 596:16
591:15 608:17 November 527:23
occasions 435:14 526:14
needlessly 453:9 now's 605:2 623:13
negotiated 577:16 number 425:8,10 427:17 occurred 512:5

429:11 483:24 494:6 549:24
negotiation 451:8 October 425:1,11 449:24
557:17
650:9
negotiations 532:15 numbers 566:20
odd 459:21
nephew 486:14 555:10
ODRC 467:1
nervous 453:9
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: offenders..passed
offenders 468:18 469:21 order 425:9,10 427:13 429:7, paramount 480:8
471:18 472:19 474:6,7 15,18,19 430:1,7,14,15 431:3
paraphrased 567:16
433:9,13,19 434:6 439:16
offense 536:19
444:3 445:7,22,24 446:2,5,6 pardon 534:16
offenses 558:18 563:23 449:10,18,24 450:3 451:9
parent 451:23 591:11,14
459:8 461:8 463:3 465:4,6,9,
office 455:19 456:1,11 499:18 12,13 477:20,22 478:4,18 parents 461:14
524:15
480:4,16 525:9
parked 606:20 607:10 625:21
officer 469:11,14,23 470:5 ordinance 560:6 651:8
Ohio 425:6,24 428:13 429:2 original 502:13 567:12 594:23 Parker 425:12,15 446:15,20
461:5 463:20 466:15 483:23
598:11 457:7,12,23 458:4 463:10,17
484:5 499:9 507:11 537:18
477:4 483:12,21 484:2,12
565:16 577:20 584:24 585:2 originally 549:10
485:2 487:6,14,20 492:14
oil 541:5 542:11 originated 428:16 494:12 495:3 496:13,15,24
498:2,6,24 500:6,13,19 501:1
older 488:20 outlets 427:5,12
503:13 504:2 510:24 511:3
ongoing 450:12 outlined 447:6 452:10,18 512:16,18 513:3 514:23
502:8 515:12,14 516:2,16,20 517:2,
online 514:18 7,15 518:3 525:7 528:24 529:2
outweighs 428:6 477:15
open 434:3 435:2 447:11 533:22 534:14,17,22 535:12,
458:13 545:5,19 580:2 645:16, overhead 660:6 21 536:1 537:21 542:16,19,22
17 646:3,5,6,8,9,13,15,16 547:19,21 548:6,20 549:15
overhearing 513:17 552:11,19 553:2 557:19,22
opened 458:14 535:5,13 569:24 570:2,5,10 571:13
overrule 501:23 511:4 513:5
536:2 646:22,24 667:9 573:13,19 574:4,6,10,14 576:2
547:24 575:22 668:14
opening 428:18 478:6 577:6,9 588:9,12,21 602:9,12
overruled 487:15,21 504:3 607:12,14,16,18 608:19 609:1,
openness 452:24 512:19 515:1 516:3 517:21 7,20 610:2,7,10 619:24 626:7,
529:3 533:24 537:22 549:16 12,19 628:6 668:15 669:14,20
opens 478:10 480:24 571:15 670:1
operating 460:22 482:8 overruling 548:9 Parker's 459:2,7 578:1
operations 471:6,9,20 owned 506:22 508:6 515:5,6, parking 524:16
opinion 474:22 486:9,12 11 516:1 518:17 520:18
487:4,7 551:23 578:1 593:13, parole 558:15,22,24 559:8,17
owns 521:10 566:6
16,17 597:6 670:22
opportunity 442:13,14 part 433:9 457:3 466:5 468:20
P 476:1 481:7,8 504:17 519:16
456:15
532:14 533:17 534:5 544:24
oppose 458:2 P.M. 605:10 550:12 554:16 563:11 580:18,
opposed 489:10 pad 627:4 19 581:21,22 585:14 586:20
590:21 597:24 634:24
opt 439:18 440:13 441:3 467:9 pain 523:19,21
participants 456:9 552:6
opt-out 432:18 437:7 painstakingly 517:13
participate 441:10 572:17
opting 437:24 palm 504:7
participated 573:2
option 591:18,19 594:3,4 papers 601:22
596:23,24 597:1 parties 441:10 446:24 450:17
paperwork 553:14,15 453:15 454:7 465:7 488:10
options 596:9 552:7 563:12 567:4 588:19
paragraph 442:4 558:3,7
opts 432:18 435:10 436:24 563:9,11,18 564:15,24 565:14 parts 551:5 554:16 669:5
437:5,20 440:7 442:1 443:15 566:12,24 567:7 568:1,2
party 590:16
oral 451:4 560:16 561:18 paragraphs 461:6
passed 643:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: past..point
past 534:8 537:8 640:15 petitioner 432:5 pivoted 656:11,12
path 643:16 phone 430:19 489:20,22 pivoting 657:18,19
492:1 504:23 507:2 508:11
pattern 560:21 562:4 place 441:11 465:12 514:10
519:9,12 632:11 656:21,22,24
587:5 603:14 605:22 610:17
pause 437:9 657:3,14
616:15 619:9 632:22 639:8
pay 503:11,18 phones 510:16 629:4 632:1,2,
placing 541:24 542:12
5,7,10,14 649:8 665:7,9,19
peered 657:10
plain 428:12 429:14 461:7,10,
photo 506:19 508:15,16,18
pen 610:23 554:1 619:16 625:22 626:20
24 462:8 514:11 613:18
penalty 558:13 565:19 566:18 630:23 646:10 plainer 613:16
584:22 585:8
photograph 427:24 457:9 plaintiff 425:6 483:23
pending 565:7,17 567:12 462:18 505:10 506:11 507:19
508:2,10 509:20 510:6,9
plan 488:2,8,21 489:3 594:7,
people 434:1,9,20 435:22 538:18 610:16 668:22
10,19,23 595:1 598:11 639:3,
464:5 473:19 474:5 479:7,9,16 4,5
481:9 483:6 492:12,16 493:22 photographed 426:20,24
planned 588:7 589:7
494:4,6 513:2,17 518:2 531:11 429:8 431:9,16 442:2 461:16
576:9 585:9 586:11 587:13 477:24 480:18 plans 519:21
596:10 598:14 638:20 640:17
photographers 461:12 plastic 540:2
653:15
photographing 433:12 played 489:6
percent 497:14 527:7 454:19 462:4 477:18 478:21
plays 456:12
perfected 451:8 photos 508:14 602:19 607:12
610:12 662:2,11 668:24 plea 451:8 453:4 461:14
performing 469:18
475:19 476:2 530:19 532:2,5,
peril 452:19 phrase 453:8 474:1 14 557:9,11 559:13 565:21
569:23 571:8 577:13,20 578:5
period 468:11 501:7 504:10 physical 468:17 513:1 564:8,
584:23 585:1 608:20
604:11 13
pick 665:18 plead 560:2,5,9,12 572:22
periodically 488:15
picked 624:17,22 657:15 pleading 569:21
permanently 489:9
665:3,11 pleas 428:13 429:2 559:20,23
permit 449:24 467:15 498:10
501:18 551:21 670:20 pickup 538:2 603:15 pled 561:3,9,13 572:19 578:7
permitted 427:1 429:6 478:9 picture 454:6 505:13,15,20 plywood 603:14 605:17
479:1 509:1,5 554:11,18 555:4
pocket 624:23 625:12 666:2
perpetuity 451:15 467:6 pictures 602:7 603:10 608:4
pockets 618:21
person 440:7 441:5 443:15,23 piece 540:21 603:14 605:17
pods 472:9
482:13,14 509:9 617:12
pieces 539:3,5 544:8 551:5
point 431:21 437:6 445:10
person's 654:20 Pike 601:24 453:19,22 454:15 455:5,7
personal 488:6 498:6 523:14 Piketon 593:1 464:12 478:16 480:9 482:11
668:8,11 485:19 493:22 495:14 496:10,
pill 523:20 21 507:15 508:18 510:20
personality 600:9
515:3 528:9 531:24 532:4
pills 523:8 524:2,5,13,20
personally 523:11 553:17 537:5 614:1 615:20 617:11,22
561:10,20 572:21 pine 526:23 619:18 620:23 625:23 626:20
628:2,11 633:10,14 635:15
Peterson 554:4,23 572:14 pipe 540:23 541:1,3
637:1,10,12 638:22 643:1
604:5,8,14 605:7,20 623:2
pirate 623:22 657:18,19 658:17 659:11
petition 429:21,22 463:8 661:23 666:12 668:12 670:2
pivot 656:5,7,8
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: pointed..prosecution
pointed 434:5 627:19 PPP-42 550:19,20 11 558:14,16,19,23 559:15,18
571:12
points 480:5 prayed 485:24 488:24 529:14,
15 569:22 prisons 464:6
policy 456:3
predicament 449:12 private 481:22
pond 538:8 547:23
predicate 448:19 501:16 privilege 479:10 535:16 536:2
poor 593:13,16,17
608:23 609:9,14
predict 458:22
popular 464:6
proactive 642:8
prefer 440:13 670:1
porch 651:22
problem 435:17 436:7,8,24
pregnant 600:13
portends 451:6 437:12 438:6,15 439:2 442:17
preparation 572:6 453:15 523:7 524:20 612:18
posed 452:19 621:21
preparations 549:5
position 446:10,21 449:5,9 problems 436:3 443:9 574:24
456:10 457:8 459:7 prepare 549:10 575:4 576:3 596:16 599:24
positioned 631:4 prepared 452:9 580:24 proceed 449:21 484:22
possession 560:6 prescribed 525:16 proceeding 432:16 454:21
possibilities 488:22 presence 440:23 494:13 460:3 461:11,13 462:9 475:19
551:22 670:21 480:7 564:17,20
possibility 452:23 454:20
558:15 596:22 present 425:12,14,20,23 proceedings 427:22 438:18
426:1,10 431:5,24 432:19 449:14,16 457:20 463:15
possibly 459:15 522:22 532:5 483:17 492:9 493:6,13,19
442:10 444:10 450:17 452:8
537:7 495:6 500:17 501:21 516:24
484:1,6,8 501:8,10,14 509:14
potential 428:6 452:18 454:3, 510:6 524:14,16 572:3 573:12 517:18 534:20 536:6 552:15
11 459:5 464:13 469:1 470:1 570:8,20 609:5,23 669:18
presentation 440:11 670:6
477:15 488:22 558:18 559:3
press 437:13 438:17 442:6,10, proceeds 452:6
potentially 474:24 532:1
19
pounds 667:5 process 444:18 446:23 457:4
pressure 486:16,17 460:15,19 463:22 466:5
PPP-22 543:8,9 468:11 596:21
pressures 453:11,14
PPP-23 543:20,21 professional 479:16
pretty 616:21 647:7,8 669:7
PPP-26 541:12,16 proffer 609:8,15 649:22,23
prevent 434:6 586:14
PPP-28 542:4,5 progeny 460:9
previous 463:12 467:12 534:4
PPP-3 538:11,13 prohibition 429:4 432:15
previously 426:4 430:13
PPP-30 544:12,13 446:21 481:1 515:6 535:17 437:2
553:7 581:19 607:19 621:19 promised 567:1
PPP-31 545:9,10 630:14 638:12 644:8,13
PPP-32 546:6,7 645:12 654:2 prompted 520:20
PPP-33 546:15,16 primary 471:11 pronoun 503:15
PPP-34 546:24 547:2 principal 460:9 proper 458:18 483:6 522:18
PPP-35 547:10,11 prints 504:7 property 469:19 525:21
526:2,15,20 560:14 561:15
PPP-36 548:3,4 prior 426:18 478:5 491:16 592:22
506:6,22 523:1 534:22,24
PPP-38 549:17,18 536:24 570:2,11 prosecuting 425:21,22
PPP-39 549:24 550:2 484:3,4
priority 474:17
PPP-41 550:7,8 prosecution 440:9 465:20
prison 451:10,11 471:14 528:10 563:22
472:13 473:8,10,20,24 474:9,
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: prosecutor..record
prosecutor 455:18,20 ready 484:10,22 485:1 552:16,
Q 20,22 553:1
prosecutor's 455:19
real 447:10 457:2 489:4
prosecutors 532:16 585:19 qualifications 468:19
623:16 realize 577:19
qualifies 576:4
protect 441:4 587:23 598:6,8 reapproach 610:2
599:1 quarter 551:17
reason 443:17 445:13 449:2
protecting 591:12 question 450:9 491:5 494:20 459:10 470:19 478:23 491:8
496:18,19 497:7 498:18 655:21
protections 460:5 501:19 502:4 510:3 511:3,8
514:23 515:7 517:21 518:10 reasonable 428:2,8 437:16,
protective 641:8,16
519:17 521:4 529:4 535:8 18 441:5 454:20 462:3 465:22
provide 467:1 533:20 555:17 536:9 548:24 549:1 553:3 477:12,17
556:7,8 563:20 566:14 567:23 562:3,19 570:23 609:12 610:8 reasoning 528:19
provided 436:15 488:13 626:13,14 627:23 628:9 668:8,
10,14 reasons 447:12 450:18
583:5,7
459:18 523:21 569:5,15
providing 564:6 questioning 495:9 552:23
recall 484:18 505:19 506:5,8
pry 545:5,19 645:20 questions 459:21 475:10 509:11,19 510:1,8 512:4,8
476:24 477:2 502:13 518:7,20 519:7,8,14 536:14,17 541:24
public 427:22 428:3,7 440:16, 574:1,17,19 542:12 543:14 564:10 565:12
24 441:16 465:23 466:4 467:4,
quick 483:4 647:7 649:7 566:22 567:18 568:21
5 477:13,16
quiet 643:22 receive 505:12 557:15
publicized 476:1
quote 505:3 522:7 528:18 received 427:16 489:19
Publishing 428:12 505:20 506:17,18 568:11
582:18
pull 607:12 610:21 648:8,9 receiving 505:9
667:4 quoted 461:8
quotes 498:22 recent 459:2
pull-behind 526:22
recess 434:16 435:3 457:14,
pull-off 604:22,23 18,19 478:8 483:16 493:12
R
pulled 595:7 611:4,6 641:1 551:17 552:9,10,12,14
651:19 667:7 raise 452:3 467:13 646:13 recessed 434:24
pup 521:10 658:19
recesses 435:1 483:7
purchased 603:4 raised 433:20 455:2,9 462:15
491:21 513:15 recessing 670:9
purpose 434:5 450:12 530:10 recite 482:12
638:19 raising 593:5
ramp 619:20 620:6 reciting 483:8
purposes 463:24 467:2
Randa 495:21 511:22 524:9 reckon 506:12 573:1
pursuant 427:1
rattle 453:8 recliner-type 614:24
pursue 488:15
reached 507:2 recognize 449:11 508:1,4
put 442:1 446:24 448:24 538:17,20,24 541:19 542:8
449:17 450:10 464:2,8,21,23 reaction 506:14 550:23 553:10,12,24 557:3
466:24 475:5 478:4 480:20
562:21 602:18 603:3 607:20
509:2 518:9 543:1 544:2,4,7 read 427:19 428:14,15 462:16
547:7 550:17 551:8 593:23 552:4 558:3,8 626:13,14 recollection 530:24 532:7
603:21 618:16 622:8 624:23 542:24
reading 426:21 427:2 429:13
626:9 639:21 657:7 666:2 433:14,16,18 442:3 445:15 recommendation 566:5
putting 487:4,12,19,23 543:14 462:22 463:1,4
record 427:24 437:23 447:2
reads 430:11 448:14,24 449:4 450:16 451:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: recorded..resume
454:24 455:7 457:9 463:14 relationship 488:15,21 489:6 represented 426:4 484:3
464:1,16 467:2 480:20,23 507:6
relatives 515:4,10,15,24
483:8 568:22,24 569:3
representing 426:2 427:5
release 559:2
recorded 426:20,24 431:8,16 440:16 448:15
442:3,12 447:16 450:5 451:14 relevance 575:20
request 464:1 466:24 489:22
454:1 455:5 466:8,14,15
relevant 447:13 563:23
477:24 480:18 490:19 491:17, requested 432:4
22 495:13 569:14 649:23 relied 449:13
requesting 427:10 434:18
recording 433:12 438:12 reluctantly 586:6
454:19 466:4,17 477:18
require 447:15
478:21 480:22 rely 444:7
required 445:15 499:17
recovered 506:24 507:1 remain 486:10 493:10 605:12 502:10 533:16
517:13 538:11 564:9 remaining 564:8,12 565:22, requirement 430:12 448:2
red 611:5 24
requirements 438:10
redirect 476:12,13 remember 497:17,20 502:19
requiring 433:2
504:20 505:4,9 508:15,16
reducers 541:4 509:3,4 511:24 512:2 519:11, research 552:2
13,20 520:17,22 522:7 524:24
reenter 434:15,24 residence 573:8
540:14 544:9,10 545:21
refer 474:3 505:3 557:13 557:17 564:22 566:2,10 resolve 565:17 617:8
558:2 568:17 579:4,24 580:18,19
582:17 583:17,18 586:2,15,21
resolving 532:1,5
reference 561:19
587:2,6,11,17,21 594:12 respect 431:19,22 454:5,11,
referenced 539:9,12 601:7,9,20,22 611:7,9 616:17 24 455:23 458:15 468:21,24
630:17,18 631:1,13 649:19 469:2,23 470:20 471:2 472:12
referencing 627:5
659:5 661:16,24 662:5,20 474:8,14 477:11,23 479:23
referred 473:13 626:14 664:15 666:8
respectful 514:6
referring 503:16 527:15,16 remind 482:6 485:3,17
544:18 558:6 563:8
respective 453:17
remove 494:3
respond 465:2,8 471:12
refresh 542:24
removed 507:20 478:19
regard 452:18 560:6 561:23
rendered 459:23 responded 493:24
562:1
reopen 434:15 respondent 465:6
regarded 449:14,15
repeat 510:2 513:21 515:8 responding 471:20
regrets 522:3
532:3 631:21
regretted 522:10 response 427:9 471:7 525:10
rephrase 610:4 617:24 591:4,5,6 594:1,2 635:7 636:9
regulate 479:3
reported 492:11 527:20 responsibility 563:14
regulation 507:5
reportedly 485:21 rest 451:10 523:14
rehabbing 593:1
reporter 494:10 619:22 626:6, restitution 559:3
rehabilitation 451:22 456:2 8,10,15,17 628:5
restrict 427:22 494:7
reinstated 567:13,22 reporters 428:22
restricting 477:17
rel 428:12 429:1 461:3 reporting 436:13
restrictive 432:24 480:1,3
related 478:20 518:7,21,22 reports 552:4
521:6 548:14 549:4 564:17
result 476:17 486:7,19,22
represent 426:11 432:5,6 491:1 529:22
relates 450:22 451:20 458:10
resume 484:23 495:8 552:22
relation 499:22 518:20 representation 568:10 611:3
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: resumed..Senior's
resumed 457:20 483:17 Robin 516:15 SARK 430:23 457:13
493:6,13 495:6 501:21 517:18
role 531:8 sat 538:5 556:14 562:8 568:20
536:6 552:15 570:20 609:23
569:18 585:19
670:6 roll 606:23
satisfied 568:10
retaliate 642:13 rolled 606:22 607:6
satisfy 494:4
retaliation 471:23 474:3 room 432:19,20 437:4,11
475:1 476:17 641:20 451:21 460:22 461:13,17 scenario 640:20
492:13 493:24 516:12 578:19
retrace 632:14 636:22 scenes 628:18
579:7 618:23 620:9,11,24
retraced 631:18 621:8,14,18 622:3,5,24 624:7 scheduled 438:11 440:13
625:14,16 652:21 654:8,14,15
retrieve 629:3 Scheiderer 425:23 484:5
655:18 656:8 660:10 663:5,16
return 610:14 643:1 664:5 school 488:14
returned 483:19 484:14 493:5 rough 599:6 Scioto 426:6 432:6,8 452:16
495:5 501:20 517:17 520:5
roughly 452:9 604:9 scoot 607:2
536:5 552:21 570:19 609:22
643:10,13 663:5 670:5 rounds 469:18 scooted 607:4
reversed 446:1,4 494:24 route 488:16 scope 450:2
reversing 430:1 routine 448:17 screen 437:20
Rhoden 564:2,3,4,5,18 565:4 row 433:2 436:5,11,14,15,18 search 511:15
614:23 638:3
rule 426:22 427:2,15 429:11, searched 618:21
Rhoden's 638:4 14 430:8,11 433:11 435:19
445:16 447:5,14,17 454:17 searches 469:18
Richard 425:13 484:2
458:18 463:21 466:6 479:5 searching 469:19 649:11
rid 519:5 481:8 482:9,14,16
seat 434:17 435:3 436:15
rifle 541:23 581:4,8 582:7 rule's 447:7 611:3 622:8
583:10
rules 430:4 444:20 445:20 seated 433:21 478:10,11,13
right-hand 540:2,9 458:21 459:11 460:24 462:13 479:1 484:15
468:18 480:6
rights 450:13 460:19,23 seconds 667:21 668:2
ruling 448:20 462:18 479:23
ring 619:6 652:6,8 494:24 secret 599:8
riots 456:22,24 run 558:11 security 452:12,15 455:22
456:4,6 468:21,24 469:2,18
risk 456:19 473:20 474:24 running 447:9 471:2,17 473:9,21 474:7,12,24
475:5
runs 447:8 476:8,16
risks 456:7 476:8
Ryan 425:23 484:5 490:23 seek 444:1 556:11
Rita 495:21 496:6,21 503:2 495:16
509:16 511:22 535:18 569:21
seeking 445:6
Rita's 503:19 530:19 sees 438:19

S
river 524:17 self-assumption 507:4
road 455:10 571:19,20 572:10, safe 623:2,5 630:24 Self-diagnosed 576:8

11,14 579:20 581:2,23 592:19 safety 450:22 451:6 452:3,20 semi 505:21,23
604:5,8,14 605:4 623:2 628:20 465:15,17 469:20,24 471:17
Senior 521:7 526:12,18 527:5
Rob 425:21 484:3 590:5 593:21
564:2 581:5 662:13,14,16,23
Robert 467:18,19 468:3 sake 623:20
Senior's 521:3,10 525:21
Roberts 426:12,13 sample 499:18 605:21 607:10 625:21 627:11
666:15,20
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: sense..son
sense 450:20 451:6 522:22 628:15 648:15,16 649:12,13, sister 586:19
624:5 21 650:4,13,23 659:1,2,5,6,7,
sit 433:2 439:1 532:15 536:11
14,17 660:11,18,19,20 661:4,
sensitive 480:15 628:22
19 663:5,8 664:12,19 668:3,22
sentence 557:15 558:13,16 sits 436:14
shots 582:20,22 583:19 614:2,
sentences 557:18,24 558:11, 8 624:8 626:2,11 648:14,18 sitting 436:10,18 532:19
15,21,24 559:8 566:6 649:2,5 585:20 614:12 639:7
sentencing 451:9 577:13 shoulder 658:19 664:16 situation 430:4 444:24 445:23
451:2,12 459:22 463:5 481:16,
separate 521:14 shoulders 616:23
23 489:2 493:21 593:12
separating 474:17 show 553:6 555:2 556:21
situations 432:18 452:2
602:7 609:18 619:18 631:9
September 427:3,7 445:6 612:19
showed 510:11 511:22 512:1
served 438:10 566:6 size 541:4
551:3 662:2 668:24
serving 527:13 SK 541:22 544:23 545:1
showing 532:21 545:23
546:12 622:19
session 434:23 478:6 480:24 630:14
skills 601:15
set 427:6 458:20 587:9 shown 504:22 509:21 510:6
602:13,18 603:1 607:16 654:1, SKS 543:13,17 550:12,13
shows 631:6
4 551:5 581:4 583:20 606:16,19
shut 435:12 437:5,20 622:5 607:8 611:15 612:2,9,13
severity 452:2 657:1 667:11,15 613:8,20 614:4 615:16 622:15
sexual 527:17 560:24 623:1,7 624:9
side 460:18 539:21 552:8
sexually 590:8 591:2 579:16,18 606:11 616:23 sleeping 580:8 660:4 664:16
664:13,14,17,18
shake 453:10 slip 439:2
sides 480:8 484:10 552:16
shape 480:13 slipping 436:18
sight 514:11
shapes 544:10 slithered 579:23 580:2 646:18
sign 485:24 568:18 569:22,23
share 495:23 511:10 small 539:4 592:23
601:19
sharing 489:12 smashed 519:9,12
signature 557:4 562:17,19,24
She'd 638:7 smile 663:24 664:3
signed 448:16 562:7 563:3
shell 649:7 665:4,5,11,18 585:23 smiling 612:17,18 663:23
sheriff's 499:17 significant 453:13 sneaking 585:9
shield 617:8 signing 601:22 sniper 581:3
shock 616:14 617:9 silencer 560:7 580:12 snitches 457:1 473:14,19,20
474:1
shoes 460:17 504:15,19 silencers 514:18
597:15 snuck 578:10
silver 611:16 625:21 627:3,8,9
shoot 650:24 663:1 647:13 snuggled 607:1
short 461:18 506:3 516:8 similar 489:9 528:20 582:19 sold 515:5,6,11 516:1
638:10,11 586:24 594:13 636:17
solely 438:12 450:1 480:17
shortly 530:22 601:11 simply 466:16 501:1,2,11
solve 437:12
shot 531:11 578:13,19,22 sincere 458:10
somebody's 467:4
579:2,8 580:12,16 581:5,7,23 Sinclair 426:5
582:2,6,8,11 583:10,23,24 someplace 524:16 640:5
584:1,2,3,4,12,15,16,20 single 436:6 482:11
son 579:8
585:12 611:14 612:9 613:22
sir 475:20 476:4
614:4 615:2,4,11,16 622:16,18
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: son's..style
son's 461:16 462:4 spoken 502:19 562:11 577:11 602:9 607:13,
19 630:15
Sophia 485:20 486:1,8 spontaneously 486:2
488:19,23 526:9 553:15 stated 446:20 450:21 454:10
spot 453:20 656:10,16
596:11,17 601:5,15,20 642:1 565:2 567:2
spread 473:8
Sophia's 602:1 statement 459:2 534:23,24
spree 581:1 588:6 589:3 562:9 567:14 568:14,22 569:1,
sort 435:12 441:8,17,18
655:22 4,14 570:2,11 577:24
449:22 479:4 502:12 557:18,
23 582:19 586:5 600:9 spun 659:9 states 558:10 567:1
sorts 636:16 spy 555:17 stay 478:9,14
sought 429:5 SRT 471:11 stayed 572:13
sound 659:13 staff 452:12,15 469:1 471:18 step 462:21,23 610:24 656:13
473:10 474:7 475:5 476:20
sounds 437:15 525:10 570:15 stepped 462:16,17
578:2 645:7 staffing 469:21
steps 622:1,4 624:7 631:18
source 552:3,5 stairs 620:8 632:14 636:22
speak 432:11 439:19 443:5 stand 426:18 449:5 450:10 stipulate 573:13
492:21 574:23 588:4 453:12 454:23 455:14 459:17
stipulating 573:16
464:11,15 478:13 483:19
speaking 458:3 513:14 521:1
494:1 608:16 stipulation 452:9 573:21
special 425:21,23 463:21
standard 469:17 481:8 stitches 474:1
471:6,9,20 484:4
standing 459:3,16 483:7 stock 551:7
specialty 471:5
612:4 625:19,24 626:21
stood 529:7 581:8 617:19
specific 505:11 517:11 628:13 630:20,24 632:21,22
655:8 657:17
521:20 525:24 531:1 582:17 661:11 663:9,13
597:13 644:18 stop 461:15 507:10 604:16,19,
stands 460:17 465:10
21 636:13 640:8,10 666:19
specifically 445:5 486:24
STAR 456:16 464:2 471:7
491:5 498:19 502:20 503:1 stopped 604:23
504:16,18 506:19 508:23 start 478:7 486:20 575:12
510:5 513:1 516:12 517:24
stopping 670:2
576:14 629:16 644:1
521:12 524:15,20 525:5 stories 508:23
527:17 528:6,15 529:14,16,17
started 433:22 548:23 598:11
530:7,14 531:7 533:20 538:24 straight 655:3 666:20
starting 538:22
539:12 541:3 545:21 548:17 strangle 594:10
555:22 557:11 563:4 565:1,23 starve 663:20
566:15 569:10 601:9 642:6,7 strategic 456:12
state 425:6 427:8 428:11,13
650:17 429:1,2 443:7,10,19 444:14 stream 435:11 437:1
specification 565:19 566:18, 453:2 460:13 461:3,19 464:6
466:15 474:19 483:23 484:2,7,
streamed 432:21
20,21
20,22 485:11 488:13 530:5 streaming 437:4,11
specifications 532:23 533:9 532:22 533:2 536:11 552:22
558:20 561:5 565:22,24 553:3 556:14 562:8 563:4 stretched 658:23
567:21 564:6 565:16 566:17 568:20 stricken 499:5
571:4 579:23 583:6,7,9 595:20
specifics 498:18 strides 658:22 659:10
596:6,10 598:17 649:17 650:3
speculation 465:19 466:19 658:9 struggling 529:19
467:10 496:16
state's 450:24 507:22 530:4 stuff 469:15 471:9 476:18
spent 592:18 634:7 538:13 541:16 542:5 543:9,21 509:13 514:18 586:24 617:2
544:13 545:10,24 546:7,16,24
spite 476:15 style 541:22 546:12
547:2,11 548:3,4 549:18
split 600:8 550:2,8,20 553:8,20,21 556:23
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: subject..thereto
subject 474:24 609:21 670:3 588:17 669:12 tattletale 472:18
submit 502:11 sustained 536:8 570:23 tattoo 554:12,15
submitted 477:5 551:24 sustaining 518:22 536:3 taught 513:24 514:4,5
670:23
sway 576:1 teach 526:13
subpoena 504:17
switching 464:12 teaches 451:7
subpoenaed 502:9
sworn 467:20 team 456:16 464:2 471:7,9
substance 523:20
system 444:17 450:22 Technically 595:3
substantial 428:3 462:3 451:11,18 452:14 456:9
telephone 441:10,21
465:22 477:13 473:20 474:9 526:14,16
telling 445:8 511:24 519:8,11,
successful 527:1
14 529:20 530:10 532:20
T
successfully 469:6,9 576:19 581:4 586:2 603:13
616:24 631:11
suggest 445:6 467:2,11 Tabby 598:21 599:6,23
600:11 temporarily 489:10
suggested 594:12
Tabby's 599:2 tend 635:2
suggestion 486:17,23 489:22
593:24 595:3 Tabitha 555:17,18,24 556:6 term 439:19 472:17 474:2
561:20 558:14,19 623:23
suggests 444:4,23
table 493:5 495:5 501:20 terms 437:3 440:11 466:9
suicide 522:24 594:18
517:17 536:5 570:19 574:15 473:23 567:11
Superintendence 427:2,14 585:20 609:22 670:5 terrible 612:18
429:11 430:5,8,11 444:21
445:16,21 460:24 tailgate 604:24 606:8 test 600:22
superior 429:24 430:15 431:3 takes 466:10,11 604:13 testified 466:4 467:21 470:17,
445:18 446:9 449:13 taking 426:18 447:22 581:1 23 472:23 473:13 517:14
596:11 518:18 537:1 577:10
supplemental 427:11
talk 437:17 456:15 486:20 testifies 473:3 474:22
support 449:8
496:3 500:21 502:12 510:22, testify 453:1 456:18 457:3
suppose 442:9 464:3 465:7 23 511:11,12,22 512:1 513:16 464:18 467:16 472:14 474:4
529:12 583:22 520:3,7 523:6 577:11 578:5 530:15,16 533:18 534:23
supposed 482:21 502:13 586:5,17,18 593:4,18,19 556:18 564:16,19 565:3 567:8
595:10,23 598:2 575:21
suppression 450:11
talked 449:6 456:14 485:22 testifying 451:1,3 453:24
suppressor 505:16 558:20 495:20,23 499:20 513:1 520:2, 455:4,16 471:23 472:18 476:2
12 521:13 556:13 571:2 477:20
supreme 426:21 427:14
592:11 593:11 595:21 596:13,
428:24 429:3 449:13 460:6,10
15 623:15 testimony 425:2 450:5
463:8 478:3
451:15 452:20 453:16,21
talking 436:23 438:7 443:8 455:6 458:6 464:10 466:14,17
surely 599:16,18,19,20
451:19 455:13 456:21 481:3 467:1,8,11 480:2,14 485:4
surprised 639:7,9 485:19 490:9 497:17,20 501:3 517:9 533:21 534:9 566:14
503:2 504:16 515:4,15,16,24 567:9,23 573:23 595:13 606:5
surroundings 514:9
520:22 521:14 558:5 573:10 609:10 667:3
suspect 490:2 596:9 610:11 628:24 660:19
662:12 tests 462:1
suspicions 490:17
tampering 560:10 text 505:12
suspicious 488:24 491:9
target 469:3 theoretically 459:5
sustain 487:8 497:3 499:2
503:14 515:19 518:4 525:8 targeted 456:23 thereto 429:8
535:10 548:22 570:17 578:3
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: thing..TV
thing 433:20 436:10 439:23 638:10,11 643:9 644:17 645:2 transcript 425:2 649:20
481:11 482:11,23 506:15 647:16 651:13 652:16 653:14
travel 441:9 442:17
513:21 528:20 529:9,18 656:24 658:3 660:18,24 664:4
530:13 540:2 558:6 561:4 665:14 treated 581:16
571:4 573:6 580:15 616:16,17
timeline 526:8 trees 526:23
636:16
timely 427:9 trial 427:21 440:1,23 441:22
things 426:23 458:9 464:4
446:17 455:1 458:16 465:18
469:4,24 487:1 489:1 502:10 times 433:24 438:23 443:11
466:18 480:8 483:9,22 530:8
513:11 514:3,12,15 523:6 449:20 470:1,6,9,12 512:12
533:19 564:20 565:7 567:15
529:16 544:17 555:8 569:20 513:10 523:18 579:3,9 580:12
571:1 595:10 596:13 600:12 583:23,24 584:1,2,3,4 586:9 trials 466:14 565:3 566:15
601:20 602:23 634:17 669:22 595:22 634:8,10 649:12
661:20 664:19 667:9
trigger 595:7
thinking 432:24 506:14 587:9
588:20 631:20 tip 545:15,18 trip 506:3 516:8
Thirteen 648:20,21 tire 606:24 triple 631:9
Thomas 517:4 title 557:8 tripod 607:17
thought 429:13 435:20 today 425:12 426:16 432:12 trouble 482:15 519:15,19
487:23 539:12 574:13 586:19 619:22
433:4 443:3 445:17 459:3
588:6,13,16 589:2 590:7,23,24 464:21,24 480:22 485:6 534:4, truck 488:16 490:14,18 491:4,
596:11 599:20 602:17 638:5 7 574:8 575:3 597:6 609:11 13,15 495:13,15 497:18 505:2
652:13 656:1 660:22,24 663:7 512:5,13 513:12 515:23 519:3
today's 438:9
thoughts 506:23 521:22 523:16 537:2,6,20,24
Todd 603:5 538:2 581:1,2 603:15 604:10
thread 541:4 605:12 606:6,17,20,23 607:6,7
told 487:22 488:10 498:23
610:20 611:13,16 622:8,9
threat 457:2 500:4 501:9,11,17 502:6,8
625:21 627:7,8,9,10,11 637:2,
508:24 510:20 511:7 522:12,
threatened 470:10,16 6,13,14 647:13 649:3 651:3,7
19 528:6,14 530:1 534:7,12
666:10,17
threats 470:1 512:14,20 535:19,22 536:17 538:7
556:14 571:7 579:23 582:18 trucks 627:12,15 628:11
Thursday 670:11
585:5,7 595:20 596:6,10
true 505:1,5,7 522:13 534:8
thyroid 576:24 597:15,18 598:17 608:15,22
535:4 584:12 587:24 588:3,5
670:10
tie 521:2 596:5 597:11
tomorrow 670:12,14,16
ties 462:12 trumps 448:4 449:9
tomorrow's 669:24
time 429:10 442:17 447:19,20 trust 459:16,19 586:24
448:22 461:4,18 468:17 470:4, top 603:22 605:18 663:11,12
truth 453:11 466:12,13 530:2,
15 471:4,19 472:3 473:12
topic 520:24 593:6 11 535:22 585:15
478:10 487:23 488:5,7 489:1,
13,24 490:2,5 495:19 496:5 total 543:6 557:17 558:21 truthful 533:21 563:21 566:14
497:21 499:8 500:5 501:5,7 605:16,20 620:24 633:14,17 567:23
504:10 509:9,19 511:14,20,21, 636:19 652:18
truthfully 453:1 564:16 565:3
23 512:3 515:8,14,22 516:7
totaling 558:17
519:2,12 520:11,14 521:21 TTT 577:12
522:1 523:16 524:24 526:4 totally 670:3
528:3 529:11 530:3,11 532:3 TTT-1 556:22,23
tough 441:14
536:15 551:13,14 552:9 TTT-2 562:11,15
555:13,16 559:13 562:8 563:5 tracks 452:10
569:17 571:9 592:18 593:13 turn 530:4 640:5 665:21
594:15 602:21,23 604:11,12, trailer 614:15 618:8 634:14
turned 481:16,17 616:18
13,24 605:2,6,16,21 613:9,13 training 468:11,20 469:7 659:12 661:3 665:24 667:15
615:15 616:20 620:4,24 621:2, 472:4 473:2 474:20
12 622:12 631:22 633:9,12,14 TV 426:6,7
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: tweeting..walking
tweeting 437:2 Union 571:19 572:10 579:20 videotape 457:9
581:2 592:18 604:8,14 605:3,
two-hour 442:17 view 453:22 455:7 472:7 552:4
11 628:20
type 430:1 476:18 506:14 viewed 456:6
unique 451:2 456:10 459:22,
507:16 524:23 530:13 556:9
23 vindicated 461:21
557:11 599:12 616:16,17
617:2 636:16 unit 470:6 471:17 violate 430:7 445:20,21
567:11
typed 553:14,17 units 469:17
violating 430:4
types 471:5 507:16 576:16 unlawful 560:5,24
violence 471:13,23 473:21
typically 476:7 unlock 620:13
475:1
unlocked 652:3,7,8,15,24
violent 471:21
U
unnecessary 447:17
visible 663:6
ugly 504:15 unprofessional 473:17
voice 486:9 574:23 620:1
ultimately 455:1 489:7 531:6 unsuccessful 635:18 628:7
533:8 unsure 604:12 voluntarily 568:6
Um-hum 592:15 upbringing 513:16,23
Umm 521:19 W
upper 540:9
unauthorized 560:14 upset 514:17,20 Wagner 425:3,7 426:12 431:6
uncle 511:24 520:22 524:8,9 upstairs 437:9 432:1 443:3 445:3,5,12,13
525:3 537:10,11,12 603:5 446:17 448:13,22 449:19
UUU 553:20,21 450:1,19 452:7,13,16,19
uncommon 472:17
454:18 457:9 459:12,14,17
undercover 440:19 441:4 V 460:2 461:23 462:11 475:18
477:11,12 479:24 483:24
underlying 451:8 558:18 484:8,19 485:3 502:24 537:12
vacation 492:14 565:9,10,11 566:16,17 573:12,
underneath 581:3 605:17
606:6,14,16 627:22 628:15 Valley 426:6 432:7,8 18 574:7
657:10 664:7
variables 451:24 Wagner's 451:8 452:20 460:2
undersigned 568:8 500:3 509:12 510:5 512:10
variety 460:6 516:10
understand 432:22 435:11
438:24 441:12,13 443:21
vast 467:3 wailing 636:6 644:2
446:18 459:6 479:17 482:1,16 vehicle 536:21 603:4,6,10,11 wait 619:22 626:6 633:5
485:9 501:12 515:7 517:7 606:2 607:9 611:5,14 639:7, 652:21 662:12 667:5
521:4 558:10 574:20,24 10,16,22
608:12 618:2 623:21 641:7 waive 425:18 442:5 609:13
642:10 vehicle's 640:1,4
waived 535:15 536:1 609:8
understandable 459:24 vehicles 611:7,9 627:13,14
628:3 walk 438:21 493:3 615:21
understanding 426:21 616:15 629:15 633:5 648:7
428:24 437:23 438:12 458:2 vented 512:21,24 652:23 664:16 666:4,9
494:23 495:1 557:14 567:4 verdict 552:1 670:24 walked 580:7 616:20 619:12,
588:5,22 600:6,7 623:22 635:8
versus 425:6 483:23 17,18,19 629:17,23 631:17
understood 433:10 559:14 633:2,20 634:20 643:16,17
562:2 vertical 539:23 647:12 651:21 654:21 664:11
victims 595:2 667:11,21
unfairly 483:1
video- 448:18 walking 438:20 595:24 596:1
unhooked 620:18 616:18
videos 467:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 3· 10/26/2022 ·Index: walks..ZZ-1
walks 667:8 22,23 468:1 475:8 476:14,22 WOW-TV 426:5
484:5 493:16 494:8 517:11
walkway 616:19 wrap 439:24
541:13 547:22 548:7 563:5
wall 614:16 577:22 578:1 668:7,10 669:11 wrist 616:22
Walmart 597:16 window 579:23,24 580:2 writ 429:3,4,23
644:9,14,17,18 645:6,9,12,13,
wanted 482:2 486:3 533:6 16 646:3
writing 436:14 446:24
569:15,22 570:14 571:8 586:3
windows 644:21 written 445:4 571:3
589:20,23 599:1 600:18 605:1,
2 624:1
wire 560:16 561:18 wrong 465:11 655:14
wanting 576:1 WXIX 426:5
wishing 442:12
warrant 511:15
wit 566:8
Y
Washington 425:7 483:24
withdraw 610:1,7
565:9,10 566:16,17 573:17
witness's 426:19 466:9,17 year 532:11 534:12 537:8
watch 435:11 467:6 551:16 595:21 596:6 598:17 623:16
467:8
633:11
witness-by-witness 478:1 years 455:20 468:8 471:19
watching 437:1,4 474:21 558:17,19,23,24
witnessed 523:18 524:24 559:10 600:11 623:8
Waverly 492:22
witnesses 427:24 431:13,14, yes-or-no 496:17
ways 567:10
19,22 433:12 438:13 440:2
WCPO 426:5 441:1 443:11,19 444:18 447:3, yesterday 427:16 450:16
4 450:24 456:5,17 458:19,22 451:5 461:9 484:19 485:18
weapon 471:17 507:16 539:7 461:23 467:9 477:23 535:1 520:3,9 542:24 555:15,19
weapons 471:16 507:17 552:7 607:22
516:9 517:3,10,12 518:1,6
woman 620:2
532:21 536:18 550:14 Z
word 449:12 473:4 526:13
wear 504:15 530:1,13 533:7 556:8 572:24
ZZ-1 507:21,22
wearing 504:19 575:3,7 573:1 580:1 586:7 599:13,15
661:17 616:6 617:7 623:18,21 639:9,
15 642:11 658:21
week 449:4 488:16,17 514:21
601:4,16 670:10 words 491:12 502:20 506:4,6
582:17,19 617:2 623:15
weeks 530:23
wore 504:14
weighing 529:18
work 439:18 456:1,2 468:4
weight 524:5,13 479:8 507:10 526:14,16 646:1
well-being 469:20 worked 468:6 592:16,24
well-known 456:8 476:5 working 470:5 490:6 491:4,6
whatnot 510:18,19 586:10,12 537:24 638:16
whatsoever 586:19 worms 458:13 535:5,13

white 540:2 worry 459:15
wife 485:22 487:5,13,23 488:6 worst 612:19 664:3
489:1,8 509:21 511:11,18 worth 522:23
512:2
wound 663:7 669:3
willingness 453:1
wounds 582:24 583:11,15
Wilson 425:23 453:18 454:22 668:23
455:18 464:1,9 466:22 467:18,

· · · · · · · · · · · ·PIKE COUNTY, OHIO
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·5· · · · · · ·PLAINTIFF,
·6· · VS.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·ACTION NO.:

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 18-CR-155
·7
·8
· · · · · · · ·DEFENDANT.
·9
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16· · Judge, on Friday, the 28th day of October, 2022.
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·3· · · · · ·ROB JUNK, ESQ.

· · · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
·5· · · · · ·(740) 947-4323
·6

·9· · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
10
· · · · · · ·WAVERLY, OHIO· 45690
13

· · · · · · ·OHIO BCI&I
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· · · · · · ·988 EAST 185TH STREET
19· · · · · ·CLEVELAND, OHIO· 44119
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· · · · · · ·PORTSMOUTH, OHIO· 45662

· · · · · · ·person
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·1· · October 28, 2022.

·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are on the record in the
·5· · judge's chambers.
·6· · · · · · ·In addition to the Judge and the reporter,
·7· · the people who are here are John Parker and
·8· · Mr. Nash, counsel for the defendant; Rob Junk,
·9· · prosecuting attorney; Angela Canepa and Andrew
10· · Wilson, special prosecutors, all representing the
11· · State of Ohio is also here.
12· · · · · · ·The defendant is -- is the defendant
13· · waiving his appearance?
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, I spoke to him this
15· · morning.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm not sure of the subject
17· · matter today.· This was requested by somebody back
18· · here.
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, thanks, Judge.· I think
20· · I requested this.
21· · · · · · ·Judge, today's Friday, right?
22· · · · · · ·At the end of the day Wednesday, when Jake
23· · was on direct examination, he answered some
24· · questions in a way that we -- the defense --
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·1· · believes that he waived his attorney-client

·2· · privilege on what he told his lawyers about the
·3· · conduct of himself, my client, and the other
·4· · codefendants in the case.
·5· · · · · · ·We believe the questions asked by the
·6· · State and the answers given by Jake where he
·7· · testified that he truthfully told his lawyers what
·8· · happened in preparation, during and after the
·9· · crimes, which led to his guilty plea, constituted
10· · an attorney-client waiver -- privilege waiver.
11· · · · · · ·So, as a result of that, we late
12· · Thursday -- Wednesday, I'm sorry.· Late Wednesday,
13· · served Mr. Meyers, one of his lawyers, with a
14· · subpoena duces tecum for interview notes from Jake.
15· · · · · · ·Mr. Meyers is here along with Mr. Mooney,
16· · his other attorney from the Ohio Public Defender's
17· · Office.· And we subpoenaed duces tecum the notes
18· · for this morning because that was our next day in
19· · court, and it gave them yesterday to think about
20· · how they want to deal with it.
21· · · · · · ·I spoke to them this morning, and I
22· · believe they're going to accept the service of the
23· · subpoena, and they want to fight the issue, is my
24· · understanding.· I'm not speaking for them, but
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·1· · that's my understanding.· They may be filing a

·2· · motion to quash.
·3· · · · · · ·But it's also, further, my understanding
·4· · that they need until Monday morning to get the
·5· · notes together.· You know, depending on your
·6· · ruling, obviously, you may tell them to turn them
·7· · over to us, and we may look at them and decide to
·8· · use them or not use them.· But if we decide to use
·9· · information in them, then we would need Jake on
10· · cross.· And I don't know if we're going to finish
11· · with Jake today or not, but -- and then if you deny
12· · our request for the documents, obviously we're
13· · going to need those documents placed under seal for
14· · appellate review later on, if there is a later on.
15· · · · · · ·So, you know, I think they're going to
16· · need to be produced either way, whether you give
17· · them to us now or not.· But I wanted to bring this
18· · issue to your attention.· And I'm not sure how you
19· · want to deal with it or the timing of dealing with
20· · it, but I wanted to bring the issue to your
21· · attention.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, if we need to have a
23· · hearing before continuing with Jake Wagner's
24· · testimony, then obviously we're going to have to
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·1· · have a hearing.· If we're going to have to have a

·2· · hearing, we're going to have to delay our at least
·3· · start -- I don't know how long that hearing would
·4· · take, but we're going to have to delay the start in
·5· · front of the jury.
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, I have not spoken
·7· · to Mr. Meyers today, but I was under the impression
·8· · that, A, he might not have any notes anyhow; B, he
·9· · was going to file a motion to quash.· And his
10· · position is that Jake did not waive any
11· · attorney-client privilege.· Nothing was explained
12· · and he didn't knowingly, intelligently and
13· · voluntarily waive anything.
14· · · · · · ·I asked a question.· He did not respond.
15· · Asking the question, he popped up and objected and
16· · we approached the bench and that was the end of it.
17· · · · · · ·So my asking a question does not equate to
18· · a waiver on the part of Jake Wagner of his
20· · · · · · ·So now he tried to ask him some things
21· · that his attorney had told him, and I believe I
22· · objected at that time.· But, again, you know, a
23· · question that's posited does not equate to him
24· · knowing that he has a right to not waive
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·1· · attorney-client privilege and deciding that he

·2· · wants to waive that and answer stuff.· So we would
·3· · ask -- again, I'll speak to Mr. Meyers -- but that
·4· · we handle this issue now before we resume cross so
·5· · that -- you know, obviously if it's resolved in a
·6· · manner that they do not have to produce these
·7· · notes, then we can resume and, you know, hopefully
·8· · get Jake done today as opposed to --
·9· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Can I ask just a process
10· · question?· Could we start with Jake this morning,
11· · give these guys some time to figure out what
12· · they're going to do, and then address the issue
13· · after lunch -- right after lunch, so that we don't
14· · have the jury sitting around waiting for us to
15· · resolve the issue?
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, that would be
17· · preferable, as far as the Court's concerned.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I don't have a problem
19· · beginning our cross-examination.· All right?· But
20· · before we finish the cross-examination, I think
21· · we're going to need --
22· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I think our position is we
23· · would like that issue resolved today.
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Absolutely.
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·1· · · · · · ·This has already resulted in -- no fault

·2· · of the Court, you know, or counsel, quite frankly,
·3· · but with the whole media stuff, this has just gone
·4· · on long enough.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· So I think what
·6· · I'm hearing is that the defense is acceptable with
·7· · the defense to go ahead and continue
·8· · cross-examination of Jacob.· If that takes -- that
·9· · cross-examination takes up until we could have a
10· · noon recess -- and we've recessed as early as 11:30
11· · before for noon.· That if we make that an hour and
12· · a half, I suppose, lunchtime, then we can use some
13· · of that time to argue this motion, the Court make
14· · some kind of ruling on it.· But it sounds like
15· · maybe there's two issues.· One is, first of all,
16· · whether he -- Jacob Wagner has waived his
17· · attorney-client privilege.· The second one is
18· · whether or not the Court quashes the subpoena to
19· · the notes.
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I think that's fair to say.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And that won't be decided
22· · probably until they file a motion to quash, which
23· · will probably be Monday, but we can at least do
24· · that cross-examination.· If that's acceptable with
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·1· · both sides, that's preferable to me simply because

·2· · it doesn't leave our jury down there cooling its
·3· · heels while we're arguing something that's not a
·4· · jury issue.
·5· · · · · · ·Is that acceptable to the defense to do it
·6· · that way?
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yeah, we don't have a problem
·8· · dealing with this over the lunch hour.· I just
·9· · wanted to bring it to your attention.· I believe
10· · the public defender's office may have a motion with
11· · them to quash.· I don't know if they've actually
12· · filed it or not.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Okay.· Well, maybe we can
14· · argue that issue too then today over the lunch
15· · hour.· I don't know if we should have them step in.
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I have no problem with that,
17· · Judge.
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yeah, I mean, I would like to
19· · talk to them.
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· If you want to talk to them
21· · first, I don't have a problem with that.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, do you want to do that
23· · now?
24· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Sure.· And have them come
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·1· · back in?

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
·3· · · · · · ·We can go off the record for a few moments
·4· · here.
·8· · · · · · ·We're back on the record now.· In addition
·9· · to counsel for the defense and counsel for the
10· · State of Ohio that the Court's already mentioned
11· · and the judge and the reporter, we have Mr. Meyers,
12· · Mr. Mooney, and Ms. Roberts are here.· They
13· · represented Edward Jacob Wagner, who is a witness
14· · in this case, and the issue has arisen here whether
15· · Mr. Wagner has waived his attorney-client privilege
16· · and whether, therefore, the defense in this case
17· · can subpoena -- and, in fact, I think they have
18· · subpoenaed at least a copy of the counsel's notes
19· · concerning Mr. Wagner, or Mr. Edward Jacob Wagner.
20· · · · · · ·And so we'll be deciding about how to hear
21· · this issue and what -- I suppose, first of all, for
22· · -- counsel for Edward Jacob Wagner, what your
23· · position on it is, and then we'll decide where and
24· · how we're going to hear it.
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·1· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Thanks, Judge.

·2· · · · · · ·The first position we have is to
·3· · acknowledge and recognize here on the record that
·4· · we got a piece of paper.· We got a piece of paper
·5· · on Wednesday afternoon here in the courtroom and
·6· · another one by email yesterday purported to be a
·7· · subpoena duces tecum for records related to the
·8· · issue you just outlined and others, which I think
·9· · are way too broad, but I'm not fighting the
10· · overbreadth yet.
11· · · · · · ·After more -- so, just to be honest, for
12· · the record and for Jake's interest, my first was
13· · just play tough and go, You haven't perfected
14· · service.· Tough.· I'm not under subpoena.· However,
15· · they can perfect it, so that is sort of a monkey
16· · thing, why bother?
17· · · · · · ·So, now, here on the record I'll
18· · officially acknowledge I have been served.
19· · · · · · ·With that in mind, we stand ready to file
20· · a brief motion to quash, which we ginned up
21· · lickety-split yet.· And the motion to quash is
22· · probably obvious.· It just simply fundamentally
23· · says there's no waiver.· Jake, obviously, has not
24· · affirmatively waived.· So that's what we stand on.
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·1· · We say there is no waiver.

·2· · · · · · ·Now, we're not stupid.· We can anticipate
·3· · there is a battle of implied waiver.· But in the
·4· · document -- do you still have it?· What happened to
·5· · the motion?· Is it out there?· Would you go find
·6· · it, please?· Thanks.
·7· · · · · · ·So I didn't bet against myself by try to
·8· · preemptively digest and discuss waiver.· That's --
·9· · the monkey's on your back.· That's the fight you
10· · want it pick, come on at, and we'll reply as
11· · appropriate.
12· · · · · · ·But our fundamental position is it's not
13· · waived.· And I don't know if you folks happen to
14· · already know, but due to the kindness of our court
15· · reporter, I got my hands on the 11 pages of that
16· · transcript last night around 9:30.· We ordered that
17· · out.
18· · · · · · ·So, I mean, if I didn't get it, somebody's
19· · going to get it.· We sat in the courtroom and heard
20· · it.· We didn't hear what was at sidebar.· We now
21· · know what happened at the sidebar.
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I mean, I think the
23· · Court has to deal with the issue.· We're willing to
24· · commence our cross-examination, if you want to deal
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·1· · with this over the lunch hour.· I know our position
·2· · is whether you grant us our request and have the
·3· · State -- I'm sorry -- have the public defender turn
·4· · over their notes, whether we get them today or not,
·5· · they're going to have to be produced for -- so we
·6· · can look at them and use them if you decide in our
·7· · favor.· If you decide against us, they need to be
·8· · sealed and made part of the record for appellate
·9· · review.· Obviously there would be more time for
10· · that.· But if we get access to them, then we're
11· · going to need a chance to look at them and decide
12· · whether there is anything in there to use or not.
13· · If there's not, that's the end of the issue.· If
14· · there is something in there, when we'll be able to
15· · question Jake on cross-examination -- thank you --
16· · with access to that material.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Okay.· So --
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I don't necessarily agree
19· · that they would then -- if the Court grants a
20· · motion to quash, I don't necessarily agree that
21· · they have to then produce them anyhow.· I mean --
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· So is that an acceptable way
23· · to deal with it as far as Mr. Jacob Wagner's
24· · counsel too, is to deal with the motion to quash as
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·1· · well and the waiver issue at noon today or over the
·2· · lunch today?
·3· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Yes.
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· So is there anything else we
·5· · need to put on this record then?
·6· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· We have another matter that
·7· · doesn't involve Mr. Meyers and Mr. Mooney.· I don't
·8· · mind if they stay, but if you want me -- go ahead.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Let me make one more comment,
10· · and then we'll get out of here for the other
11· · things.· Obviously, we're not party for that.
12· · · · · · ·Just to flag for now and wrestle with it,
13· · if need be, around the noon hour, depending on how
14· · these rulings play out, we may be in a position to
15· · renew our request that you modify your order of
16· · late Monday, the 24th, to permit us to inform
17· · Mr. Jake Wagner what's going on here.· I can
18· · absolutely guarantee, for the record, he does not
19· · want to waive attorney-client privilege for the
20· · purposes of these proceedings.· This issue had been
21· · in the offing and we've already addressed with him
22· · long before we were ordered to quit talking to him.
23· · · · · · ·Thank you.
24· · · · · · ·(Attorneys for Edward Jacob Wagner left
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·1· · the Court's chambers.)

·2· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Thank you, Judge.
·3· · · · · · ·So the record is clear, I think we all
·4· · understand, but I'll just say it for the record.
·5· · Jake Wagner opted to tell the prosecution his
·6· · version of events in April of 2021, and we've been
·7· · provided with a transcript of that audio recording
·8· · as well as -- well, the transcript and then the
·9· · audio recording, which we have reviewed.
10· · · · · · ·It came to our attention Monday morning
11· · that he would be testifying Monday morning of this
12· · week, and we asked -- we inquired about whether or
13· · not the State had any other statements, and we
14· · asked for those statements pursuant to our
15· · discovery request, and the prosecution had argued,
16· · well, we don't have to hand that over because that
17· · was trial preparation.· And I think the Court
18· · decided that the issue was really moot because the
19· · Court had asked, Well, did Jake say anything
20· · inconsistent than what he said in April of 2021?
21· · And of course we weren't there.· The only person, I
22· · believe, there was Ms. Canepa in her interview with
23· · Jake on Sunday, and she said, no, it was all
24· · consistent.
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·1· · · · · · ·So much to our surprise on Wednesday, Jake

·2· · testified that when he went into Frankie's house
·3· · that, in his original proffer, he said that his
·4· · father stayed in the living room or the kitchen
·5· · area.· But then we were surprised to hear that his
·6· · father not only left the kitchen area, but went to
·7· · Frankie's room and shot Frankie.· That's the first
·8· · time we had ever heard that.
·9· · · · · · ·And so Jake's testimony is critical in
10· · this case and the finding of guilt or not guilt on
11· · George turns, I think, largely whether or not Jake
12· · is believed or not.· His credibility is at stake.
13· · · · · · ·So we've asked -- in fact, we've asked
14· · numerous times for any supplemental statements by
15· · Jake, and we've been told no interviews had
16· · occurred at all until Monday and we were told,
17· · well, there was an interview Sunday.
18· · · · · · ·So going back to what we heard on
19· · Wednesday through Jake Wagner, under oath, that he
20· · had given at least one other statement to the
21· · prosecution in July, and what we were able to, I
22· · mean, stumble into through cross-examination is he
23· · said, yeah, my father and I -- you know, my father
24· · shot Frankie, I told this to the prosecutors back
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·1· · in July.
·2· · · · · · ·So we think that all of that -- all of
·3· · those statements should be provided to us.· He's a
·4· · codefendant.· It comes in under Rule 16.
·5· · · · · · ·But even if it doesn't come in under
·6· · Rule 16, what's happened is the State has gained
·7· · information that their witness has given
·8· · inconsistent answers and they have not given us
·9· · that material.· Brady dictates that that
10· · information should be given to us, any evidence
11· · that's favorable to the accused, and that is
12· · favorable.· And especially considering that Jake's
13· · credibility is at stake here as to -- that's what
14· · this case is all about.· And so we're asking that
15· · any other statements be provided to us.
16· · · · · · ·The thing is we found out -- and it was
17· · just by luck, by questioning blindly, we found out.
18· · We don't know what else is out there that Jake has
19· · given inconsistent answers in comparison with his
20· · proffer from 2021.
21· · · · · · ·So we're seeking an order to have those
22· · statements given to us.· That's pursuant to Brady.
23· · · · · · ·We also filed a motion, and it was on
24· · July 3rd of '19.· That was Motion Number 9 for
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·1· · disclosure of exculpatory and impeachment material;

·2· · motion 84, which was filed January 19th of this
·3· · year to compel Brady material.· And so we'd just
·4· · like to bring that to the Court's attention that we
·5· · feel that -- we have now identified an
·6· · inconsistency that should have been given to us.
·7· · And so we're renewing those motions to ask that --
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What motion number did you
·9· · just mention?
10· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Number 9 and number 84.· The
11· · first is disclosure of exculpatory and impeachment
12· · evidence, and then number 84 is compelling Brady
13· · material.· Both of those motions cite Brady.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· On behalf of the State?
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yes, Your Honor, again, this
16· · is not a recorded statement.· This is trial
17· · preparation where we meet with our witness, and,
18· · you know, refresh all of our recollections as to
19· · what's going on.· I certainly did not consider that
20· · or do not consider that inconsistent.· It's
21· · additional supplemental thing.· The way he phrased
22· · it to us was that he thought that that was what had
23· · happened and he didn't know why his dad did it, but
24· · it does not involve George.· It's not like he
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·1· · initially said George did something and then he

·2· · backtracked it or he was now saying George did
·3· · something that he hadn't said before.
·4· · · · · · ·So --
·5· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· If I may, Your Honor.· This
·6· · isn't about George.· It's about Jake's credibility
·7· · and he's given inconsistent answers.· And whether
·8· · or not the information was given during trial
·9· · preparation or whether it was not recorded does not
10· · excuse the State from their obligation under Brady.
11· · If they come into information, whether it was
12· · recorded or not or whether it was during trial
13· · preparation or not, Brady still applies.
14· · · · · · ·Luckily we found that.· We don't know what
15· · else is out there that we don't know.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I don't know how many
17· · statements Mr. Edward Jacob Wagner has made.
18· · That's one of the problems the Court has here is I
19· · don't know how many times he's been talked to, how
20· · many times -- statements he has made.· I know that
21· · he made a 12-hour, 14-hour -- I think it was called
22· · 14, another 12, maybe, hour proffer.· I know I have
23· · been informed about.· I haven't seen it, but I
24· · understand he made a proffer.· But he was talked
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·1· · to, I'm sure, several times.· Well, maybe not. I

·2· · don't know.· But wasn't he talked to before that?
·3· · Well, he was.· He was interviewed early, because I
·4· · think --
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· At the Montana border he was
·6· · interviewed.· And prior to that he was interviewed.
·7· · They have all of that.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We have these interviews.· And
·9· · then subsequent to the proffer, he's been
10· · interviewed, it sounds like a time or two.· Now, I
11· · don't know what the State's position is that if a
12· · statement is made, the car was red on his proffer
13· · and later on he says the car was blue when he's
14· · interviewed for trial prep, whether the State
15· · doesn't consider that something you need to turn
16· · over.· I remember a case several years ago -- it's
17· · not precedent for anything, where -- and Mr. Junk
18· · may remember it concerning a shooting incident,
19· · whether a shot came from the back or came from the
20· · front.· And I know you turned that over when you
21· · found out that it -- your witness was saying it
22· · came from a different direction.
23· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Right.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't know -- that's not
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·1· · really precedent possibly for this case, but the

·2· · point of it is if it does -- if it is inconsistent.
·3· · But whether it's inconsistent or not I think
·4· · depends on exactly what he was asked and what he
·5· · said in his prior interview, which I'm not privy
·6· · to.· So I don't know whether it's inconsistent or
·7· · not.· But I do feel -- I mean, my position has
·8· · always been that if the prosecutor comes into
·9· · information that is inconsistent in trial
10· · preparation, it needs to be turned over.· It's
11· · unfortunate that it would be inconsistent -- a
12· · witness would say something inconsistent.· But
13· · whether he has said something inconsistent in this
14· · case -- that's Jacob Wagner -- I don't know. I
15· · know what was said out there, that he did indicate
16· · about his father shooting -- was it Frankie, I
17· · think?· But then did he say he did -- his father
18· · didn't shoot Frankie before?· I don't know.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He never -- that's the point
20· · I was trying to make.· This is in addition.· This
21· · is supplementing his thing.· He is not saying he
22· · didn't shoot Frankie and Hazel.· He previously said
23· · I shot Frankie and Hazel and then looked for their
24· · cell phones or something.· But this is in addition
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·1· · to that.· Not only did he do it, but also his dad
·2· · did.
·3· · · · · · ·And, again, as this Court knows and
·4· · probably their expert is going to say, you know,
·5· · when you have incidents like this, you know, you
·6· · don't remember all of the details.
·7· · · · · · ·Yeah, we spent 12 hours with him, but we
·8· · did not ask him every single question that can be
·9· · asked on the planet.· So we did not see this as
10· · inconsistent.· We certainly did not perceive this
11· · as helpful in any way to their client.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· If what he's saying now
13· · directly contradict something on the proffer, you
14· · have the proffer?
15· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Yes.· And what it contradicts
16· · is the direct question of what did your father do?
17· · And his answer was he stood in the kitchen.· That's
18· · a direct contradiction.· It's nothing in addition.
19· · I mean, what we heard was his father left the
20· · kitchen, picked up a gun, and shot this guy in the
21· · face.
22· · · · · · ·Well, that's because the direct question
23· · on the proffer many times was now only what did
24· · George do, but what did Billy do?· And that was the
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·1· · answer.· That he stood there in the kitchen and

·2· · essentially just waited there.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, one other thing is
·4· · omissions can be inconsistencies.· If you omit
·5· · something, that could be --
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· He wasn't purposely hiding
·7· · anything.· He was just providing us additional
·8· · details.· Again, I never said, did your dad shoot
·9· · Frankie or Hazel in that thing, and he said no,
10· · never did.
11· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· But you asked what did he do?
12· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· That's a broad question.
13· · That gets followed up later.· Well, after this what
14· · happened?· After that what happened?· That's how
15· · you talk to witnesses.· You start broad.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, let me back up.· The
17· · statements being made in response to trial
18· · preparation by the State, interviewing the witness
19· · in July, I assume, and then you said on Sunday
20· · of -- this prior Monday of this week?
21· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· And that came out as we sat
22· · here Monday.· We asked for any statements that he
23· · had given.· And I'll point out at that time nothing
24· · was mentioned about July.· The only thing that was
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·1· · mentioned was I talked to Jake yesterday.· That

·2· · came from Ms. Canepa.· And the Court said, well,
·3· · did anything inconsistent come out of the
·4· · interview, and the answer was no.· So since the
·5· · answer was no, then it appeared the issue was moot.
·6· · But I'm not sure consistent with what he said in
·7· · July, consistent with what he said last year.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Are those recorded, either
·9· · July or --
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· We did not record them,
11· · Your Honor, because it was just us trial prepping a
12· · witness.
13· · · · · · ·Again, because we had not talked to him
14· · for so long and it was a 12-hour interview and, you
15· · know, you've got to check -- I do it with all of my
16· · witnesses.· I check in with them because it's been
17· · forever.· Some of them we prepared in 2020 in
18· · anticipation for Jake's trial and then had to
19· · re-trial prep them so we talked to those witnesses
20· · a couple of times.
21· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· We may have been able to
22· · uncover this, not that it would absolve the State
23· · from their responsibility to give this to us, had
24· · we been granted permission to interview Jake.· His
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·1· · attorney said no, you can't speak with him.· And
·2· · that's up to them.· That's not a problem.· That's
·3· · nothing that we can ask this court to remedy.· But,
·4· · I mean, had we been permitted to speak to him, we
·5· · may have been able to uncover that.· Instead, we
·6· · were stonewalled.· Meanwhile the State can continue
·7· · to interview him and withhold what I'm saying is
·8· · what is inconsistent information.
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, you now have uncovered
10· · a statement that you claim is inconsistent with
11· · what he said before.
12· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Yeah.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, to the extent that
14· · Mr. Wagner's statements, interviews with the State
15· · in trial preparation provided any inconsistent
16· · information, or I would say significant
17· · supplemental information, I feel that it should be
18· · turned over to the defense.
19· · · · · · ·Now, to the extent that it just reiterates
20· · what he said in his proffer, then I think the way
21· · the State could turn that over is just say that it
22· · was consistent with the proffer.· But I -- not
23· · knowing what he -- if there are no recording or
24· · notes of those interviews, then I think it just has
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·1· · to be based on the prosecutor's recollection of

·2· · what was said.· I don't know what else we could
·3· · base it on.
·4· · · · · · ·But I do feel that even supplemental
·5· · information, if it's significant in any way to a
·6· · defense, I think has to be turned over.· I mean --
·7· · oh, yeah, this person was also there, which would
·8· · be supplemental.· It wouldn't be contradicting, but
·9· · it would be something that the defense would be
10· · entitled, I think, to know.· But with 14 hours of
11· · proffer, it would seem to me that most of this
12· · stuff should have been covered.· I haven't seen, it
13· · but in the proffer -- of course you're free to ask
14· · him whether he, in fact -- why did he not tell
15· · this, you know, you didn't say that, did you?· I'm
16· · sure you probably ask some of those questions.
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· They already did.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· And he may say he did.· His
19· · recollection may be I told them, I believe, and you
20· · know he didn't.· So I don't know what's in the
21· · proffer.
22· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Our problem is we don't know
23· · what we don't know.· We lucked into that.· What
24· · else is out there that we may miss?· So I think --
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·1· · you know, maybe one approach, as the State reviews

·2· · their notes, you know, if there's a question
·3· · whether they should hand it over, at least bring it
·4· · to the Court's attention for review and then a
·5· · decision then be made as to whether or not we get
·6· · it.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't know what notes exist.
·8· · I do think it's an important enough issue that it
·9· · needs to be gone through.· If there is supplemental
10· · information that would be -- you know, if it would
11· · be significant to the other side's preparation,
12· · whether it contradicts anything he said directly or
13· · not, is additional and would be of interest to a
14· · defense attorney, I think it needs to be turned
15· · over.· I think that's what the discovery process is
16· · all about.· So that's kind of where we are.
17· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· One other thing, Judge.
18· · · · · · ·I just wanted to let the Court know that
19· · we have obtained airfare for our out-of-state
20· · witnesses to get started on that on November
21· · the 7th.· And so I had sent an email to the
22· · prosecution to, you know, see where they're at with
23· · their lineup.· I don't know if -- how they feel if
24· · they will be able to complete by Friday.· If not,
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·1· · should we modify our schedule next week somewhat to

·2· · fit all of it in?· I don't know.· And it's kind of
·3· · like we don't know.· But I just wanted to let the
·4· · Court know in our witnesses these would be
·5· · witnesses coming from Alaska.· We wanted to get
·6· · them in and out.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· If I understood correctly, the
·8· · last I heard was the State felt like it would take
·9· · all of next week, but felt like they could probably
10· · conclude next week.· Was that the understanding?
11· · So I don't know where we are.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That was when I thought that
13· · Jake was two days.· That's when I thought he would
14· · be Monday and Tuesday.· I did say in response to
15· · them that if we finished with Jake today and maybe
16· · got on a witness or two -- they're short witnesses
17· · that we do have prepared to testify later today --
18· · that I thought we could still make it.
19· · · · · · ·Now, obviously if we go into Monday with
20· · Jake, that's going to, I think probably --
21· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Maybe calling -- maybe putting
22· · on our case just out of order, that's an option. I
23· · didn't want to put this on your lap on Monday
24· · morning.
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·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You have a proffer, you've had

·2· · interviews.· Again, just so it's clear, I feel like
·3· · significant -- I mean, information that is in
·4· · addition to that could in any way relate to
·5· · something the defense counsel should be interested
·6· · in with their defense, I think needs to be turned
·7· · over, even if it's not directly contradictory.· If
·8· · it is contradictory for sure, I mean, that should
·9· · be obvious it needs to be turned over.
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Sure.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Now, what -- whether it is --
12· · whether there is stuff said that was contradictory
13· · or supplementary, I can't know, because there's
14· · 14 hours of -- I don't know how many pages of
15· · transcript that is.
16· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· It's 712 pages, maybe.· We'll
17· · need to make that transcript part of the record
18· · under seal.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I think I've made that clear.
20· · I don't know if that shakes loose anything that you
21· · need to be telling defense counsel or not.· But --
22· · all right.
23· · · · · · ·So we know how we're going to handle the
24· · issue of waiver of the attorney-client.· We do that
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·1· · at noon.
·2· · · · · · ·Is there anything else we need to --
·3· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Nothing.· Thank you.
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What I'm hearing from the
·5· · State is that other than this one statement that
·6· · was made on cross about -- about what activities
·7· · that Jacob's father did in shooting Frankie, but
·8· · there's nothing else that's -- we're not going to
·9· · have any surprises or supplemental or --
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We'll attempt to bring out
11· · inconsistencies in our cross.
12· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, that's your job. I
13· · mean, I'm not saying that's your job and we don't
14· · have an obligation to turn over anything that is
15· · Brady material.· I'm just saying, I would
16· · anticipate that you're going to try to make him
17· · look like a liar.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· We can only make
19· · inconsistencies when we know what he said before,
20· · if you understand what I'm saying.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't know if that affects
22· · the idea that one shot -- Dad also shot Frankie is
23· · somehow relevant to the autopsy stuff that you have
24· · or not, but that's something else I'm going to have
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·1· · -- that you people will have to consider.· Okay?

·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Understood.
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It's still with the same
·4· · weapon.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The weapon isn't charged.· The
·6· · person is.
·7· · · · · · ·All right.· So do we need to put anything
·8· · else on this record?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.
10· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· No.· Thank you, Judge.
12· · proceedings were resumed out of the hearing of the
13· · jury as follows.)
14· · · · · · ·(Defendant entered the courtroom.)
15· · · · · · ·(Jacob Wagner entered the courtroom and
16· · took the witness stand.)
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Thank you, good morning.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Good morning.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· This is another day of trial.
20· · It's Friday, October 28, 2022.· The case of State
21· · of Ohio, plaintiff, versus George Washington
22· · Wagner, IV, Case Number 2018-CR-155.
23· · · · · · ·The defendant is present in court with
24· · John Parker and Richard Nash, his attorneys.
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·1· · · · · · ·The State of Ohio is represented by the

·2· · prosecuting attorney Rob Junk, by special
·3· · prosecuting attorneys Angela Canepa and Andrew
·4· · Wilson.· Also present is Ryan Scheiderer, special
·5· · agent with Ohio BCI&I.
·6· · · · · · ·The witness, Edward Jacob Wagner, is in
·7· · the witness chair.
·8· · · · · · ·Is counsel for each side ready to have the
·9· · jury brought up?
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, Judge.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Bring the jury up, please.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Good morning.
15· · · · · · ·Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the
16· · jury.· It's good to see you all here.
17· · · · · · ·As you're aware, when we recessed on
18· · Wednesday afternoon, Edward Jacob Wagner was in the
19· · witness chair.· The defense was conducting
20· · cross-examination.
21· · · · · · ·Mr. Wagner, I will remind you that there
22· · was an oath administered to you on Monday of this
23· · week.· This is continuous testimony, so that oath
24· · is still in effect.· You're still under oath to
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·1· · tell the truth.· Do you understand that?

·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, sir.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Is the defense
·4· · ready to resume cross-examination?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, Judge.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is the State ready?
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You may resume
·9· · cross-examination.
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Thank you.
11· · · · · · · ·CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
13· · · · Q.· ·Good morning, Jake.· How are you?
14· · · · A.· ·I'm fine.· How are you?
15· · · · Q.· ·I'm good.· I'm John Parker again, not
16· · Mr. Nash.· Let's get this straight.· Okay?
17· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I got you.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Good.
19· · · · · · ·Once again, you know the rules I'm sure by
20· · now?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· If you don't understand what
23· · I'm saying, please say so.· If you don't hear me,
24· · say so.· If you need a clarification, say so.
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·1· · · · A.· ·I will.

·2· · · · Q.· ·If you need time to think, please say so.
·3· · If you need a break, please say so.· Is that --
·4· · · · A.· ·I've got you.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You got me.· Okay.
·6· · · · · · ·Now, let's start with some basics here.
·7· · · · · · ·You talked to the prosecutors for the
·8· · first time when you gave what's called a proffer
·9· · back in April of last year; is that correct?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And, as I understand it, you
12· · wanted that recorded?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And it was recorded, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes, it was.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that actually took place over
17· · two different days; is that right?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then it was a very short
20· · time later, a matter of days, when you entered your
21· · guilty plea; is that right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you mentioned the other
24· · day that you talked to the prosecutors Julyish, I
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·1· · think is what you said, of this year; is that

·2· · right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And I believe you talked to
·5· · them this past Sunday as well; is that correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Were there other times that
·8· · you have talked to the prosecutors?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us when, approximately?
11· · · · A.· ·There was maybe a few times after the
12· · proffer in that year, last year.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · A.· ·I think maybe -- I think only once this
15· · year in July; it may have been two, but somewhere
16· · in there.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were all of these meetings at
18· · the jail where you're being held?
19· · · · A.· ·I think it's part of the jail.· I think
20· · it's -- it might be a separate building, but
21· · it's --
22· · · · Q.· ·It's part of the jail system there?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·It wasn't outside of that jail system?
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·1· · · · A.· ·I mean, they -- I went from -- they

·2· · transferred me from the jail I'm in, around the
·3· · corner.· So, like, I got in a van and went around a
·4· · block or two and went back into another -- I don't
·5· · know if it's the same building, but it's in there
·6· · somewhere.
·7· · · · Q.· ·That same complex?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But nowhere else?
10· · · · A.· ·No.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how many times in 2021 after
12· · April, if you recall, or the month, if you know?
13· · · · A.· ·I think it's two or three.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
15· · · · A.· ·Something like that.
16· · · · Q.· ·In 2021?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall what months they
19· · were?
20· · · · A.· ·I believe it was towards fall.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Fair enough.
22· · · · · · ·Do you know how long each meeting was,
23· · approximately?· Was it one hour or a full day or
24· · how would you say?
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·1· · · · A.· ·At least five hours per time.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was three different times
·3· · after April?· Two or three, is that what you said?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then this year, I believe you
·6· · said Julyish?
·7· · · · A.· ·It was somewhere around July, yeah.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And was that once or twice?
·9· · · · A.· ·Once.
10· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Now, I want to have you look
11· · at some photographs and exhibits.
12· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· That's all stuff that has
13· · already been used.
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· They've already been marked?
15· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·I'm showing you what's been marked as
18· · Wagner Exhibit 29.
19· · · · · · ·You recognize that, don't you?
20· · · · A.· ·Umm.
21· · · · Q.· ·Who is that?
22· · · · A.· ·I mean, that's my brother.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· That's George, right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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·1· · · · Q.· ·And Wagner Exhibit 21, who's in this one?

·2· · · · A.· ·My brother and my nephew.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you know where that photo's taken?· Can
·4· · you tell from that photo?
·5· · · · A.· ·It's in the kitchen of our Peterson farm.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recognize Wagner
·7· · Exhibit 38?
·8· · · · · · ·(Wagner Exhibit 38 was thereupon marked
10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do.
12· · · · Q.· ·What is that?
13· · · · A.· ·That is a lock pick set.
14· · · · Q.· ·Whose lock pick set?
15· · · · A.· ·I think that's my father's.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you have your own?
17· · · · A.· ·Not in that scale, but yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I think you testified earlier that
19· · you were pretty good -- pretty good at picking
20· · locks; is that right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· How did you learn to pick a
23· · lock?
24· · · · A.· ·My father taught me.· Well, he -- he gave
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·1· · me the basics.· I proceeded the rest on trial,

·2· · error, YouTube.· Self-taught, basically.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But when you were very young,
·4· · didn't he, like, sit you down and try to teach you
·5· · how to pick a lock?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· How old were you about, would
·8· · you say?
·9· · · · A.· ·11.· 10, 11, 12, somewhere in there.
10· · · · Q.· ·And you became pretty good at picking
11· · locks, right?
12· · · · A.· ·I was, not to boast, but very good, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·You were very good, right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And you would carry around -- what do you
16· · call it?· A pick?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes, I carried a pick.
18· · · · Q.· ·You carried a pick with you all the time,
19· · right?
20· · · · A.· ·I had a basic in my wallet at all times,
21· · yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Just in case you needed to
23· · pick a lock, you had it?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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·4· · · · Q.· ·And this Wagner Exhibit 37 -- you know who
·5· · that is, don't you?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Who is that?
·8· · · · A.· ·That's my father.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Do you have any idea where
10· · that photo was taken or when?
11· · · · A.· ·That is also in our kitchen at Peterson.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And your father taught you at
13· · a young age to use that lock-pick skills that you
14· · developed to steal trucks at times; is that
15· · correct?
16· · · · A.· ·I was taught how to steal a truck, yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Using your lock-pick skills?
18· · · · A.· ·The most part, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And why would you do that?
20· · Why would your father have you do that?
21· · · · A.· ·Well, it was a few different reasons.· One
22· · of the reasons was for particular or potential --
23· · if you ever had to use it, for example, like, say
24· · when I was young, if I was kidnaped or something
YVer1f
·1· · like that, ever stranded and you need to get a

·2· · vehicle or something, and also if I need to steal a
·3· · vehicle.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So your father taught you what
·5· · he considered to be survival skills; is that right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What other skills did he teach
·8· · you?
·9· · · · A.· ·Well, survival skills.· He taught me how
10· · to evade detection; how to shoot a gun; how to
11· · steal a vehicle or enter a house or a building,
12· · whether it's through a lock pick or other means.
13· · He taught me how to locate security surveillance.
14· · Various other skills of survivaling.
15· · · · · · ·How to survive on natural substances you
16· · find in the woods like roots, mushrooms, plants,
17· · survival stuff.
18· · · · Q.· ·Your dad was into that survivalist
19· · activity, wasn't he?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·In fact, you lived up on Bethel Hill.
22· · That's probably where you spent most of your life,
23· · isn't it?
24· · · · A.· ·It is.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you were -- is that where

·2· · you were born, more or less?· I mean, you were born
·3· · in the hospital I assume, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·But you grew up from a young age up there
·6· · on Bethel Hill?
·7· · · · A.· ·For the most part.· I'm not -- I think
·8· · there were a few other locations in my early early
·9· · childhood, but from at least -- at least two years
10· · old I was there, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you know that your dad actually
12· · took, like, a bread truck or something and had it
13· · buried in the ground as part of his survivalist
14· · activities; is that right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He was prepared for the -- what was
16· · that thing called in 2002?· K something.
17· · · · Q.· ·Like, when the year turned to be 2000?
18· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· What was that called?
19· · · · Q.· ·You tell me.
20· · · · A.· ·I think that was called 2KO.· I forget
21· · what it's called.· It's kind of like the apocalypse
22· · thing in 2012, but that never happened.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But he was preparing for that?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And he kept preparing for the end of the

·2· · world, so to speak, even after that; is that right?
·3· · · · A.· ·For the most part, yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What did he do with this bread
·5· · truck?
·6· · · · A.· ·I vaguely remember the bread truck.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Tell me what you remember.
·8· · · · A.· ·I do remember that he had buried it
·9· · somewhere on the Bethel Hill farm.· I can't
10· · remember where he put it, but later on he did bury
11· · a C container once we -- this was probably about
12· · 2003ish, '04ish.· Partially buried kind of like an
13· · open basement.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What was the purpose?
15· · · · A.· ·Storage for dry goods, kind of like a root
16· · cellar, to -- and a possible -- I guess you would
17· · call it a potential bomb shelter-type thing.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was food and water put in there?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· It was storage in case there
21· · was some end of the world or some disaster that
22· · would help out the family?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And with respect to your
YVer1f
·1· · stealing, he taught you how to steal; is that

·2· · right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And tell us about that.
·5· · · · A.· ·You just want me to go, like, all, or can
·6· · you give me a baseline?
·7· · · · Q.· ·Start at the beginning and tell me what he
·8· · taught you.
·9· · · · · · ·Take your time.
10· · · · A.· ·Well, the -- I think the first time he
11· · mentioned that actual stealing part for those
12· · reasons, I believe I was probably 12 or 13.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · A.· ·And he had told me that he did not want me
15· · to find out from other sources that -- like,
16· · potentially someone come up to you and say, hey,
17· · your father's a thief, yada, yada, yada.· So he
18· · said I'm just going to tell it to you straight.
19· · This is what I've done, this is what I do.· My
20· · purpose is so that I do all this so you would never
21· · have to.
22· · · · · · ·Funny how that works because, logically, I
23· · had the same scenario later on.· I'll do this,
24· · these crimes or whatever, so later on my own child
YVer1f
·1· · would not have to.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · A.· ·Strange how that works.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · A.· ·But at that time -- let's see.· He started
·6· · to teach me for the most part, at the beginning
·7· · early on, would be how to break into vending
·8· · machines.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.
10· · · · A.· ·Like at hotels or places that had vending
11· · machines, you know, that had stored coins and
12· · whatever else in secluded areas in hotel corners or
13· · laundry rooms or whatever.
14· · · · · · ·From that moved on to a little bit of
15· · shoplifting like.· And from that, went to showing
16· · me how to steal a vehicle.
17· · · · · · ·Now, personally I have never stolen a
18· · vehicle, but I've served as, like, a lookout or
19· · prep or disassembling at the end of it, like --
20· · kind of like a chop-shop kind of thing.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
22· · · · A.· ·And I think the first one that I had
23· · disassembled when I was probably -- probably 14,
24· · maybe 15.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·And after that, it went -- well, actually

·2· · about the same time, he had taught me how to steal
·3· · fuel using a semitruck.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Explain that.
·5· · · · A.· ·Now, again, I personally never stole fuel
·6· · myself, but I've been the lookout, prep, prepare,
·7· · and utilizing the assist of transfer or -- from
·8· · tank to tank or whatnot, but I've actually never
·9· · been the person to actually stick the hose in
10· · someone else's tank or tanks or whatever and
11· · actually pulled fuel out myself.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · A.· ·But basically taught me how you to use
14· · either trailers, pull behind a pickup truck where
15· · we have a tank inside with, like, little bristles,
16· · curtains that most trailers have --
17· · · · Q.· ·Right.
18· · · · A.· ·-- kind of covers so you can't see under
19· · them.
20· · · · Q.· ·Right.
21· · · · A.· ·To that extent, or carpet with a hole cut
22· · into the center of the floor of the trailer to
23· · where you would pull over at a tank at a gas
24· · station.· If you pull the lid off, get a pair of
YVer1f
·1· · bolt cutters, cut the lock, open it.· You would
·2· · stick a hose down in it with a 12-volt system pump
·3· · that you can buy at, like, Tractor Supply or
·4· · whatever and decipher the fuel from those tanks
·5· · into another tank inside the trailer and move on.
·6· · · · · · ·You progress from that to a larger scale
·7· · to where it's PTO driven straight from the
·8· · transmission of our semi to where it would
·9· · automatically pump the fuel from either ground
10· · tanks or company vehicles, other semis, from those
11· · tanks into our own tank, and then move down the
12· · line and transfer that fuel into the tanks that was
13· · in our trailer.
14· · · · · · ·And from that, we had progressed to
15· · stealing -- like, actually steal, like, truck and
16· · trailer with load on it.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Talk about that.
18· · · · A.· ·I personally did not -- was not personally
19· · present at this particular set or type of stealing
20· · except one time.· And we had stolen one trailer
21· · that was -- turned out to be abandoned, full of,
22· · well, basically junk.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Yeah.· Your dad had spotted a
24· · trailer somewhere and believed --
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·It had gold or something inside, yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Right.
·3· · · · A.· ·And -- well, so it had a really big
·4· · pinlock.· I mean, the pinlock itself was probably a
·5· · hundred dollars, so it seemed valuable.· And, yeah,
·6· · so we basically went into it, cut the lock off, got
·7· · the trailer, brought it home, and it was filled
·8· · with miscellaneous junk.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Right.· But your dad also would -- and I
10· · believe you were part of this.· Correct me if I'm
11· · wrong, but I believe your dad was part of taking
12· · truck trailers filled with different types of
13· · metal, and stealing those; is that right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He had stolen copper, aluminum,
15· · zinc, large quantities.· Like, you know, a
16· · trailer -- a truck trailer and cargo limits without
17· · a permit is 80,000 pounds.· Cargo is usually
18· · somewhere around 40,000 pounds.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you would help him with that, wouldn't
20· · you?
21· · · · A.· ·I would help on the scouting part.· Help
22· · find the trailers.
23· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
24· · · · A.· ·Crawl into the back of them and test to
YVer1f
·1· · see what kind of metal it was.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And how old were you when this started?
·3· · · · A.· ·Maybe 15, 16.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Go on.· I didn't mean to interrupt.
·5· · · · A.· ·But I had never actually participated in
·6· · stealing one of those type of loads.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But you were part of it?
·8· · · · A.· ·I was part of it, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you would -- you could pick the
10· · lock of a semitruck and start it up; isn't that
11· · right?
12· · · · A.· ·I could, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you did that?
14· · · · A.· ·I don't remember actually starting one to
15· · steal.· I have started them once they were stolen,
16· · though.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what would your dad do with
18· · those loads?
19· · · · A.· ·He would take truck, trailer and cargo to
20· · Mexico.
21· · · · Q.· ·Mexico.· Why Mexico?
22· · · · A.· ·I'm not quite sure.· I know that he had --
23· · he and somebody else had a link or a contact or
24· · whatever you call it, somebody would buy the whole
YVer1f
·1· · thing once you crossed the border for a large sum,
·2· · and then basically he would drive another vehicle
·3· · home, not a stolen vehicle.· I think somebody would
·4· · follow him or something.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·6· · · · A.· ·I wasn't there or participate, so I'm not
·7· · sure how he got across the border or whatever
·8· · happened there.
·9· · · · Q.· ·But you knew about it?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·You knew it before it happened, right?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you knew it once he came home, right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And he would have a large amount of cash
16· · with him; is that right?
17· · · · A.· ·I remember one time he had a briefcase
18· · with a hundred thousand dollars in it, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And did you have any dealings with that
20· · briefcase after he brought it home?
21· · · · A.· ·I mean, I held the money.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
23· · · · A.· ·And he also bought me a truck out of the
24· · money.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And you counted the money, right?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes, I counted the money.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· More than one occasion?
·4· · · · A.· ·I can only remember one.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did your dad -- did your dad have a
·6· · pension plan, so to speak?
·7· · · · A.· ·When you say "pension plan," do you mean
·8· · like a -- like a fund set up for my future or his
·9· · future?
10· · · · Q.· ·Let's talk about his future.
11· · · · · · ·Did he have a way of saving money that
12· · you're aware of?
13· · · · · · ·Didn't he like to bury his money?
14· · · · A.· ·I mean, we did bury money for a long
15· · period of time in Mason jars.
16· · · · Q.· ·Right.· And didn't he tell you that he had
17· · money throughout the West and South in case he
18· · needed it?
19· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure on that one.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did he bury money at
21· · Peterson Road at that address, or at Bethel Hill?
22· · · · A.· ·Bethel Hill, yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
24· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure on Peterson.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So go on.· What else?

·2· · · · A.· ·Let's see here.· There was a time where we
·3· · was -- actually he started this and then -- with
·4· · somebody else and then probably when I was about 16
·5· · or so we would also -- well, I wouldn't.· I would
·6· · use the lock pick.· Couldn't use lock picks so we
·7· · used bolt cutters.· We would open trailers in the
·8· · back of truck stops and take whatever was in the
·9· · trailers, such as, like, washers and dryers, the
10· · fancy kind; the fancy kind of furniture; TV;
11· · computers; whatever was there; food at one point.
12· · And one time -- I was not part of this one, but one
13· · time there was a whole trailer of hot tubs.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
15· · · · A.· ·There was also a -- I was also not part of
16· · the actual stealing.· There was a trailer load of
17· · shoes.
18· · · · · · ·And let's see here.· There at last we was
19· · stealing cattle.
20· · · · Q.· ·Stealing cattle?
21· · · · A.· ·We took our trailer and would go to
22· · different stockyards, mostly in Kentucky or
23· · Illinois, or even some in Indiana, and we would
24· · wait until the sale had ended, and specifically
YVer1f
·1· · knowing which cows would have been in there bought

·2· · by somebody we actually worked with -- as a broker,
·3· · he would buy the cows for the company for slaughter
·4· · houses, big companies like Cargill.· And after the
·5· · sale was done, we would know those cows, we would
·6· · go in and -- in the middle of the night and
·7· · basically load those cows up into our trailer and
·8· · then take them to another location and resell them.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Anything else?
10· · · · A.· ·Not off the top of my head, I can't
11· · remember, no.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Let's move on to another
13· · topic.
14· · · · · · ·Now, when you grew -- you grew up there on
15· · Bethel Hill.· Pretty isolated, you would agree,
16· · right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·You probably didn't have too many friends
19· · growing up that were the same age.
20· · · · A.· ·Not many.· Not many to actually consider
21· · an actual friend.
22· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Because you didn't go to a public
23· · school or a private school or anything like that?
24· · · · A.· ·No.· I went to public school for a month,
YVer1f
·1· · but after that it -- just didn't like the

·2· · surroundings, environment.· So it's not like I
·3· · had -- what do you call it?· Environment to have a
·4· · day-to-day basis friends.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Right.· And your mom homeschooled you,
·6· · right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And she homeschooled you through a
·9· · company -- explain how that worked.
10· · · · A.· ·Through elementary school I think up until
11· · the eighth or ninth grade, she used a mail-in order
12· · type company called Calvert.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · A.· ·And once we -- once I was done with that,
15· · I finished through high school.· Same situation;
16· · you did stuff, whatever, mail it in, mail it back
17· · and forth, communicate with teachers through a
18· · company called American Homeschooling in Lansing,
19· · Illinois.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · A.· ·Once I finished that, then I had done a
22· · diesel technical -- technician program at -- shoot.
23· · The tech college down in Lucasville.
24· · · · Q.· ·Let's talk about the homeschooling for a
YVer1f
·1· · minute.
·2· · · · A.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Now, your mom would sit you down and go
·4· · through the lesson plans or whatever, and she would
·5· · be your teacher?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then she would give you
·8· · the tests?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yep.
10· · · · Q.· ·And then you would send them in and find
11· · out the results?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And was there a point in time
14· · where you actually stopped taking that and your mom
15· · kind of did it for you?
16· · · · A.· ·For the topic or, I guess, subjects -- the
17· · subjects that I did not feel I would ever need,
18· · yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What subjects were those?· Do
20· · you remember any of them?
21· · · · A.· ·Social studies, English.· A lot of -- for
22· · the most part history and psychology.
23· · · · Q.· ·So your mom would do some of it and send
24· · it in as if you had done it?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I basically told her I wasn't doing

·2· · that crap and I didn't need it.· So I got math. I
·3· · done a little bit of science and so forth and so
·4· · on.· I was either going to be a mechanic, a truck
·5· · driver or a farmer so I didn't need those things
·6· · and I wasn't going to fool with it.
·7· · · · Q.· ·She did it for you?
·8· · · · A.· ·She wanted to make sure we graduated, so
·9· · yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·So she fraudulently sent that information
11· · in that you had done when, in fact, you had not
12· · done it?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Now, when you were growing up on Bethel
15· · Hill there, what kind of hobbies did you have?
16· · · · A.· ·Well, I hunted.· I fished.· I rode
17· · four-wheelers.· Are you talking about -- that's
18· · considered a hobby, isn't it?
19· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· If you consider it a hobby, I
20· · consider it a hobby.
21· · · · A.· ·Okay.· I tinkered a little around with
22· · gunsmithing; didn't get very far.
23· · · · · · ·Let's see here.· I done archery.· Let's
24· · see here.· I done truck pulls, kind of like a
YVer1f
·1· · demolition derby that you sort of do at county

·2· · fairs.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
·4· · · · A.· ·Let's see here.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Did you like video games?
·6· · · · A.· ·I did.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Most young people like video games,
·8· · right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I mean --
10· · · · Q.· ·You had video games at your house there on
11· · Bethel Hill?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Were there any particular video games you
14· · liked in particular?
15· · · · A.· ·I tried various sorts.· Let's see. I
16· · mostly -- I would say my top three would have been
17· · the Resident Evil series, Call of Duty, Halo would
18· · be the top three.· But, I mean, played other ones.
19· · Especially Medal of Honor, other science fiction
20· · first-person shooters, like Gears of War, Fallout,
21· · stuff like that.· The James Bond stuff, the Hitman
22· · stuff, zombie games.
23· · · · Q.· ·You spent quite a bit of time on the
24· · video -- playing videos, didn't you?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I mean, I spent my fair share.· But, of

·2· · course, I lived on a farm and you're outdoors and
·3· · so --
·4· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
·5· · · · A.· ·I wouldn't consider myself a gamer
·6· · considering what a gamer's time frame screen would
·7· · actually be, but I did my fair amount of time, yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Right.· I mean, you had a lot of free time
·9· · when you were young, right?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And so you would do a lot of gaming on the
12· · various games that you talked about?
13· · · · A.· ·I did.
14· · · · Q.· ·Would you say those influenced you in any
15· · way?
16· · · · · · ·You enjoyed them, right?
17· · · · A.· ·I did.· And I would say, to an extent,
18· · yeah, they was probably influencing.
19· · · · Q.· ·And when you were growing up, as I
20· · understand it, your father didn't really believe in
21· · going to the doctor much.
22· · · · A.· ·That is true.
23· · · · Q.· ·And so you didn't really go to the doctor
24· · much when you were young if you needed to, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Only if it was severe enough that you

·2· · needed to, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Right.· It would have to be pretty severe.
·4· · He wanted you to be able to take pain, right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And he would stitch you up, if necessary?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yep.· I've been stitched up, yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And duct tape might have been one of his
·9· · favorite tools?
10· · · · A.· ·Oh, yeah.· Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·If you got injured or cut or something,
12· · the duct tape would come out and you'd be wrapped
13· · up, right?
14· · · · A.· ·Or black electrical tape.
15· · · · Q.· ·Or black electrical tape?
16· · · · A.· ·Either one worked for a bandage, yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And so there was one time when you were
18· · young, as I understand it, that you were hit in the
19· · head with a grappling hook.
20· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember that?
22· · · · A.· ·Well, I remember three parts of it.
23· · · · Q.· ·Tell us what you remember.
24· · · · A.· ·I remembered the initial moment of when I
YVer1f
·1· · was hit in the head with a grappling hook.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Tell us how that happened or how old you
·3· · were.
·4· · · · A.· ·I was about 7, 8, or 9, somewhere in
·5· · there.· I think it was 8ish or 9ish.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·7· · · · A.· ·I can remember that at the time we -- and
·8· · this is after the time we had operated a -- kind of
·9· · like a practice motocross track.· Insurance was too
10· · high or something, so my parents stopped doing it.
11· · But we had a ton of semi tires and whatever
12· · outlining the tracks, just laying in the field.
13· · And at the time my mother had decided that she
14· · wanted to use those tires for a different purpose
15· · by making, like, flower beds and whatever.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·So my brother and I had -- I thought I had
18· · busted four-wheeler, so we took that four-wheeler
19· · with a grappling hook.· It's apparently guaranteed
20· · not to bend, yada, yada, yada.· We decided that we
21· · would basically play cowboys and Indians as we was
22· · doing our work, you know.· Swinging around, lasso
23· · and rope the little tin cow and drag it on home.
24· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I can remember to where he was driving.

·2· · · · Q.· ·When you say he --
·3· · · · A.· ·George.· George was driving the
·4· · four-wheeler.· I was on the back.· And I remember I
·5· · lassoed this tire, this big 'ol semi tire, and
·6· · after I lassoed it and it hooked, there was slack
·7· · in the rope obviously.· And I think I had told him
·8· · I had got it or something.· He kept going.· There
·9· · was, like, a -- like, it pulled taut and -- like a
10· · bungee cord and this grappling hook bent.· Now, I
11· · can't say I have an actual memory of it bending,
12· · but I remember seeing it.
13· · · · · · ·I had turned back to look towards the
14· · grappling hook, and, like a rocket, I just felt
15· · this big 'ol smack right in my forehead.
16· · · · · · ·You can see the scar if you look real
17· · careful.· Basically the whole forehead right here,
18· · it peeled my skin all the way to the skull, just
19· · big 'ol gash in my head.
20· · · · Q.· ·Must have been pretty painful.
21· · · · A.· ·I don't remember the pain.· Like I said, I
22· · remember the impact.· I don't remember the point of
23· · when the impact back to the house, but I can
24· · remember my dad standing there.· And I got my
YVer1f
·1· · hands -- my hands covering my face, and he had said

·2· · something like let me see or something.· And I
·3· · remember opening my hands and blood squirting.· He
·4· · said, "Oh, God, please don't.· Put it back, put it
·5· · back."
·6· · · · · · ·From that point I remember nothing until I
·7· · was in the hospital room with an intern stitching
·8· · my head.
·9· · · · Q.· ·He did take you to the hospital for that?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I did go to the hospital for that.
11· · But I only remember the intern doing the stitch
12· · work -- it kept breaking or whatever.· I can
13· · remember my dad standing over me and -- after he
14· · broke the stitches like the sixth time or something
15· · like that, half a dozen times, I can remember my
16· · dad looking at the intern and telling him, boy, if
17· · you break that stitch again I'll break your neck.
18· · Basically he was prolonging or whatever.
19· · · · · · ·Well, granted, you know, he didn't break a
20· · stitch afterwards.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
22· · · · A.· ·That's all I can remember about that.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, you also had a -- at least one
24· · heatstroke as a young child, didn't you?
YVer1f

·2· · · · A.· ·It was self-diagnosed, yes.· It may have
·3· · even been slightly concussionized.
·4· · · · · · ·What happened was I was probably about 13
·5· · and I was helping my dad build a barn.· At one
·6· · point in the day, I had taken a spud bar -- are you
·7· · familiar with what a spud bar is?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Tell me about it.
·9· · · · A.· ·A long steel, solid steel rod probably
10· · about seven feet long.· It's got, like, a chisel in
11· · the one side.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · A.· ·And the other side has a -- like, a hockey
14· · puck shaped piece of steel on the other side.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
16· · · · A.· ·It's used to tamp the dirt back around a
17· · fence post or something.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
19· · · · A.· ·Very heavy.· And I can remember stabbing
20· · it in the ground and then wiping the sweat from my
21· · forehead, and I can remember the thing had come
22· · down -- I guess I hadn't stuck it in the ground
23· · long enough, and it whacked me right up the side of
24· · my temple on my right side.· Like, right the side
YVer1f
·1· · temple.· About just laid me flat out, like right

·2· · down to the ground.
·3· · · · · · ·Dizzy, whatever.· Got back up.· And I'm
·4· · not quite sure how I got back to the house.
·5· · It's -- it's probably a quarter -- maybe a half
·6· · mile from the house.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Were you by yourself out there?
·8· · · · A.· ·I think I was.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Go on.
10· · · · A.· ·Maybe.· I'm not sure.· I know we was all
11· · working at that point building a barn, but I can
12· · only remember myself being there.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · A.· ·Not much I remember about the whole thing,
15· · but I do remember I was sick for a week. I
16· · couldn't walk more than 20 feet without falling
17· · over.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.
19· · · · A.· ·Constantly vomiting, couldn't eat,
20· · nothing.· My mom had said it was a heatstroke, but
21· · considering the hit on the head, my dad had said
22· · something that it was like a concussion or
23· · something, or possibly concussion, heatstroke,
24· · something similar.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But you never went to see a

·2· · doctor for that?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Was there another occasion that you had a
·5· · so-called heatstroke or whatever?
·6· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Your Honor, can we approach?
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
11· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· We're okay with wide
12· · cross-examination; that's fine.· But I would like
13· · some element of relevance to heatstrokes and
14· · medical conditions with respect to the role in the
15· · crime.
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It goes to his memory and
17· · fundamental -- at this point, especially as a
18· · child.· It's all relevant especially --
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Are we going to have a
20· · diagnosis?
21· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Well, it's the impact on him
22· · and the fact his father wouldn't take him to a
23· · doctor.· I'm almost finished with this.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Try wrapping it up.· We have a
YVer1f
·1· · diagnosis, but what happened.· How can anybody say

·2· · at this point?
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Well, how it affected him is
·4· · within common knowledge, the way he describes how
·5· · he suffered.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Common knowledge.· But I'll
·7· · let you continue questioning for a while.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'll move on to another
·9· · subject.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You may continue.
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Thank you, Your Honor.
17· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Was there another instance of
18· · a heatstroke?
19· · · · A.· ·I can't remember a second heatstroke, no.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let's talk about your mother.
21· · · · · · ·You were very tight with your mother
22· · Angela, correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And you and George, I believe, are about
YVer1f
·1· · one year, and one month and --

·2· · · · A.· ·Six days.
·3· · · · Q.· ·-- six days apart, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·So you were close in age?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You were the youngest, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And would you agree with me that you might
10· · have be the favorite of your mom?
11· · · · A.· ·I've been accused of being the favorite.
12· · · · Q.· ·And your mom didn't work outside the home,
13· · as I understand it, right?
14· · · · A.· ·The majority, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Well, she didn't, like, go someplace to
16· · work.
17· · · · A.· ·She -- I mean, early in my childhood there
18· · was a point that I can remember she did work at
19· · Walmart.
20· · · · Q.· ·Oh, okay.
21· · · · A.· ·For a small period of time.
22· · · · Q.· ·For a small period of time.
23· · · · A.· ·I can't remember how long it was.· And she
24· · worked for my grandmother's mentally-retarded home.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·That's right.· She worked up on Bethel

·2· · Hill, right?· Well, the Flying W.
·3· · · · A.· ·It's on the farm, but technically it's
·4· · deeded off as a government-property thing.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Let's explain that to make sure
·6· · everybody understands it.
·7· · · · · · ·Up at the Flying W, your grandmother
·8· · Wagner has a group home; is that right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And she runs a group home for people with
11· · disabilities?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·So is that where your mother worked for a
14· · short time?
15· · · · A.· ·She worked there I'm thinking it was for a
16· · few years of my childhood and also for a year or so
17· · prior and just after my brother's marriage.· So,
18· · like, 2011ish to, like, 2013ish, something like
19· · that.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So she did have those jobs?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·But she also, up on Bethel Hill -- let's
23· · talk about that first.
24· · · · · · ·Up on Bethel Hill she also had what some
YVer1f
·1· · people call hobby farming; is that right?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Where she raised dogs?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· She had a kennel.· We've -- we
·5· · raised Heritage pigs and little various things,
·6· · different hobby farm stuff.· Biggest thing was her
·7· · kennel, but yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Tell me about her kennel.
·9· · · · A.· ·She raised -- well, started a kennel and
10· · raised various breeds.· I think she started with
11· · English Bulldogs.· I think that's when her kennel
12· · started.· And I was maybe 9ish, 10ish, somewhere in
13· · that age.· And went from that progressing up to,
14· · like, when the whole Labradoddle fad came in.
16· · · · A.· ·If I remember correctly, I think at the
17· · time the Labradoodles was introduced, like, some
18· · place in Georgia or Alabama or something like that.
19· · And there was no breeders on this side of the
20· · Mississippi, or something similar like that. I
21· · remember she had gone into a business, bought a big
22· · standard Poodle and used a couple of the female
23· · Labs we used to have and started the Labradoodles
24· · and eventually Goldendoodles and so forth and so on
YVer1f
·1· · to Snooddles and any other kind of oodle dog that

·2· · was breedable at that time.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So this was a way she tried to
·4· · make money, right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·She would advertise online; is that right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And did you consider that to have been a
·9· · successful business?
10· · · · A.· ·It was successful, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Was she always on the
12· · up-and-up with how she bred her dogs?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Oh, wait.· What do you mean by
14· · up-and-up?
15· · · · Q.· ·Well, was she always truthful?
16· · · · A.· ·No.
17· · · · Q.· ·Tell us about that.
18· · · · A.· ·We started out as being up-and-up, as you
19· · call it, but when the market became booming, we
20· · could not keep up with the waiting list, per se, so
21· · we had started going to pounds or wherever we could
22· · find, flea markets, and we would buy whatever dog,
23· · puppy rather, we could find that looked like a
24· · doodle of sorts, whatever you could pass off as a
YVer1f
·1· · doodle for, like, 10, 15, $50, something like that,
·2· · and then we would basically sell it as what it
·3· · was -- what it was not.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You would sell it as a purebred when it
·5· · was not?
·6· · · · A.· ·Right.· We would basically say okay -- say
·7· · our dog had a litter of eight puppies.· And the
·8· · waiting list, we needed, say, 30 puppies.· Well, we
·9· · would use the same mother that was on the pup that
10· · just had the litter -- we'd present that as the
11· · mother.· We would show the father for the regular
12· · eight puppies.· We would just present it as the
13· · other 22 puppies came from this other dog and this
14· · father dog, and it was a purebred Labradoddle or
15· · whatever breed, but it was actually just a mutt
16· · from the pound.
17· · · · Q.· ·And how many dogs would your mom have at a
18· · time up on Bethel Hill?
19· · · · · · ·Was this a pretty big operation?· A pretty
20· · small operation?· How would you describe it?
21· · · · A.· ·I mean, towards the end we probably had 30
22· · to 40 dogs.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.
24· · · · A.· ·Maybe a little more.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Breeding dogs?· Or does that include

·2· · puppies?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.· That was breeding.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Those are --
·5· · · · A.· ·Those are just the breeders.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then puppies out of those?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Puppies would be the product or
·8· · however maybe products -- puppies you had would be
·9· · what was sold.
10· · · · Q.· ·So you kind of learned from this business,
11· · right?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
13· · · · Q.· ·And when you lived up on Bethel Hill,
14· · there were numerous arsons, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And let's talk about those for a minute.
17· · · · A.· ·Okay.
18· · · · Q.· ·Your mom would burn down a house for
19· · money; isn't that right?
20· · · · A.· ·I mean, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And when -- about how old were
22· · you the first time this happened?
23· · · · A.· ·Well, the first time I don't remember
24· · being aware of the situation.· No.· Wait.· Hold on.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·The first time the house caught on fire, I

·2· · witnessed that and it didn't burn all the way. I
·3· · think I was probably eight or so.· I truly believe
·4· · that was accidental.
·5· · · · · · ·The second time -- actually, I may have
·6· · forgot that one.· I believe that there was three
·7· · total.
·8· · · · · · ·I believe the first time I was probably --
·9· · let's see.· 2000- -- I was probably around 10 or
10· · 11.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · A.· ·Somewhere in there.
13· · · · Q.· ·What about the second one?
14· · · · A.· ·Now, the first time I don't believe I was,
15· · like, fully aware of exactly what was going on,
16· · just that the house was being burned and if the
17· · police ask, you don't come clean up or something
18· · like that.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Go on.
20· · · · A.· ·The second time actually -- the second
21· · time was actually our garage, which I burned down.
22· · Well, I was coached to how to burn it down.
23· · · · · · ·And the third would be the house.
24· · · · Q.· ·How old -- about how old were you with the
YVer1f
·1· · garage?
·2· · · · A.· ·I think I was about 13 or 14.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then the third one?
·4· · · · A.· ·The third would be the house.
·5· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry.· The second?
·6· · · · A.· ·The second house.· Third time, second
·7· · house.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·9· · · · A.· ·I think I was about 16, because I remember
10· · during the construction of the new house I had just
11· · gotten my tonsils cutout, so I thought I --
12· · · · Q.· ·Was that the Kentucky Wonder Mansion?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.· And we burned it down for the most
14· · part because it was -- had a lot of black mold
15· · underneath of it.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·So we decided to burn it down and use the
18· · money to build another house, so we burned that one
19· · down.· And I guess I was -- how my dad called it,
20· · fed me to the wolves.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
22· · · · A.· ·Let's see here.· Because that was when I
23· · spoke to the fire chief and all that.
24· · · · · · ·And the second time, again, this was
YVer1f
·1· · probably a month or so after my nephew was born, so

·2· · this would have been late 2013 before my daughter
·3· · was born, and so that would be, like, around
·4· · August, August of 2013.
·5· · · · · · ·And at the time it was assumed that my
·6· · grandmother was selling our side of the farm, which
·7· · was about 600 acres, divided by a road.
·8· · · · Q.· ·The Bethel Hill property?
·9· · · · A.· ·Right.· Bethel Hill runs between the
10· · property.
11· · · · Q.· ·Right.
12· · · · A.· ·And she was going to sell it.
13· · · · Q.· ·Your grandmother was going to sell it?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.· My grandparents was going to sell
15· · it.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
17· · · · A.· ·And apparently we wouldn't have been
18· · compensated for the house we just built.
19· · · · Q.· ·That was a big house, right?
20· · · · A.· ·It was a big, nice house, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· How much do you think it was worth?
22· · · · A.· ·Well, it did not cost us much to build it
23· · because we had used materials that we had stolen,
24· · so a lot of the materials was free.· But we still
YVer1f
·1· · had over -- probably had about $200,000 in it.

·2· · · · Q.· ·It was a big, nice house?
·3· · · · A.· ·It was.· It could probably have cost
·4· · somewhere around the 4-, 450 if somebody else had
·5· · built it with all the materials.
·6· · · · Q.· ·You did a lot of labor?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you helped build the
·9· · marijuana grow room in the basement of that house,
10· · didn't you?
11· · · · A.· ·I participated, yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·You participated.
13· · · · · · ·And that was the last place you burned,
14· · right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And you actually did the burning; is that
17· · right?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I -- the only people that was home
19· · was myself, my brother, Chris Senior.· And I had
20· · set it up to where I had a big crock pot, like,
21· · thing, big metal pot on our propane stove to where
22· · it was filled with some kind of oil, vegetable oil,
23· · olive oil, whatever, and I had taken a chicken with
24· · the open flame on the stove and basically I left it
YVer1f
·1· · to where it would overflow when I put the chicken

·2· · in.· And I dropped the chicken in, it splashed,
·3· · caught the flame, got on the -- caught the drapes,
·4· · which was right next to the sink, on fire.· And
·5· · then I taken the squirt gun thing from the sink and
·6· · I hosed the stove down, which only spreads oil
·7· · fires.· I claimed at the time I did not know that.
·8· · I just spread the fire, you know.
·9· · · · · · ·Used Chris as a witness.· He was standing
10· · in the kitchen -- the doorway of the house to see
11· · the whole thing and all that.· And once I caught it
12· · on fire, he placed the 911 call.
13· · · · Q.· ·And it was your mom's idea to do this?
14· · · · A.· ·Umm.· I think it may have been her and Dad
15· · both, but I'm not sure on that.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But she was -- is it fair to
17· · say she was upset that this part of the farm was
18· · going to be sold and you and the family were going
19· · to have to go somewhere else?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And you weren't going to be compensated in
22· · any way once the property was sold?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.· That was the understanding, yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·So this was your mom's way of getting the
YVer1f
·1· · insurance money to buy a new place?

·2· · · · A.· ·Basically I would describe it as it was a
·3· · way of being compensated for all of the time and
·4· · hard work we put into the house, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Understood.
·6· · · · · · ·All right.· Now, also up on Bethel Hill --
·7· · I mean, that house, that last house you just talked
·8· · about had a concrete basement, right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And there was a large marijuana grow room,
11· · right?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.· When the basement was being poured,
13· · Dad designed off one section of it to look like it
14· · wasn't part of the basement so he could use it to
15· · perform this attempted grow room with Chris.
16· · · · Q.· ·Right.· He and Chris were in the marijuana
17· · growing business; is that right?· That was
18· · something they did together?
19· · · · A.· ·Chris was teaching Dad how to do it.· He
20· · was getting into helping and whatnot, yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Also on Bethel Hill, out in the pine
22· · trees, I think you said there was a camper?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·With a marijuana grow room there?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And was there also, like, an outdoor plot
·3· · in the pine trees?· Do you remember that?
·4· · · · A.· ·Now that you mention it, there was several
·5· · spots -- not like a plot.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·7· · · · A.· ·There was several areas in the pine trees
·8· · that they had planted several plants, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Okay.
10· · · · · · ·Let's talk about your dad for a minute.
11· · · · · · ·Well, before I go on, let's -- a few more
12· · questions about your mom.
13· · · · · · ·Once you went over to Peterson Road, she
14· · continued her so-called hobby farming over there;
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And dog breeding?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.· We done pompadoodles at that time.
19· · · · Q.· ·And was it the same type of activity she'd
20· · had at Bethel Hill as far as not being on the
21· · up-and-up all the time?
22· · · · A.· ·For the most part.· Now, the Beagle part,
23· · we didn't go to, like, pounds or whatever to buy
24· · Beagles.· I mean, our Beagles were slightly
YVer1f
·1· · smaller, but -- if someone wanted -- whenever we

·2· · had to show a parent, then we would pick the
·3· · smallest one we possibly had.· Usually wasn't even
·4· · the parent.· But for the most part we would present
·5· · a dog that was not actually the right dog.
·6· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And how many dogs were there
·7· · over on Peterson, approximately?
·8· · · · A.· ·Somewhere between a dozen and 15.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And you had a lot of pigs or hogs?· What's
10· · the proper term?
11· · · · A.· ·We call them pigs.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· She was breeding a lot of pigs
13· · over there as well; is that right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And showing you State's Exhibit RRR.
16· · · · · · ·Do you recognize this?
17· · · · A.· ·I do.
18· · · · Q.· ·What is that?
19· · · · A.· ·That's our Peterson farm.
20· · · · Q.· ·That's an aerial view of your Peterson
21· · farm; is that right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And the house is red right here in the
24· · middle, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Where would the pigs be?
·3· · · · A.· ·So --
·4· · · · Q.· ·You can just describe it here.
·5· · · · A.· ·The darker section here where this is at.
·6· · · · Q.· ·All right.
·7· · · · A.· ·So this would have been one pig lot, this
·8· · would have been another one, and further back this
·9· · way there would have been two more.
10· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So how many pigs,
11· · approximately, were you raising over there?
12· · · · A.· ·I would say we probably had at least 20.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· A lot of work?
14· · · · A.· ·It was a lot of work, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Did your dad help you with that work?
16· · · · A.· ·Some.
17· · · · Q.· ·Some.· Mainly you and your brother, right?
18· · · · A.· ·Mainly me and my brother, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·You had the responsibility for taking care
20· · of the animals, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Your dad didn't like that type of physical
23· · work; is that fair to say?
24· · · · A.· ·That's fair to say, yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Now, speaking about your dad, did he ever

·2· · work outside the home in a legitimate job, as far
·3· · as you know?
·4· · · · · · ·Let's talk about Bethel Hill -- when he
·5· · lived on Bethel Hill.
·6· · · · A.· ·I mean, he done truck driving jobs.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Right.· That's kind of how you wanted and
·8· · learned to become a truck driver was through him,
·9· · right?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Would he work all year or would he work
12· · for a few months and take a few months off?· How
13· · did that work?
14· · · · A.· ·It would mostly be how you described it, a
15· · month or so and months on.· It wasn't, like,
16· · actually -- what do you call it?· Routine.· It was
17· · more, like, periodically.· It was basically he
18· · would work about legitimately until he was bored,
19· · take a break, get unbored, and then go back again.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And so that's what kind of
21· · inspired you to become a truck driver, right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He inspired me to be a truck driver.
23· · · · Q.· ·And he became friends with a lot of other
24· · truck drivers in the area; is that fair to say?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I mean, I wouldn't say friends on their

·2· · side.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·But, I mean, obviously everybody has their
·5· · own terminology what a friend is.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·7· · · · A.· ·But, yeah, Dad would have various friends
·8· · and -- well, try to imitate whoever he was friends
·9· · with.
10· · · · Q.· ·Right.· He liked to find people and learn
11· · from them?
12· · · · A.· ·He did that, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And when he got with this group of truck
14· · drivers, I mean, as I understand it -- you tell me
15· · if I'm wrong -- is at least there was a group of
16· · truck drivers that he was part of, they sometimes
17· · are called super truckers.
18· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Did you ever hear that?
20· · · · A.· ·We -- yes, we pertained to the super
21· · trucker terminology, yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·What's a super trucker?
23· · · · A.· ·A super trucker is, in our lingo --
24· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·-- is basically a driver who, well, drives

·2· · superly.· So, like, for example, a normal legal
·3· · truck driver goes -- well, is allowed to drive
·4· · 11 hours a day or 11 hours and most -- you know,
·5· · off time, a total on on-duty like 15 hours.· Super
·6· · truckers will push past those limits, forge and
·7· · have as many as three different logbooks and drive,
·8· · drive, drive and drive some more until basically
·9· · they just can't drive no more.· Days without sleep
10· · to -- well, basically just keep on driving.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And to perform as a super
12· · trucker, it was not uncommon for these super
13· · truckers to take pills, right?
14· · · · A.· ·That is true.
15· · · · Q.· ·To keep them awake, right?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Because driving a big truck all over the
18· · country can be very tiresome, right?
19· · · · A.· ·It is.
20· · · · Q.· ·A lot of responsibility, heavy loads,
21· · you've got to get from point A to point B.
22· · · · A.· ·And be alert.
23· · · · Q.· ·And be alert.· So super truckers and --
24· · your dad was a super trucker, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·-- would take illegal pills to keep them
·3· · awake?
·4· · · · A.· ·He did, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And when did he start doing this, if you
·6· · can recall?
·7· · · · A.· ·The earliest memory, I would say I was
·8· · probably -- I was probably about 13 or 14, probably
·9· · closer to 13.· So that would have been somewhere
10· · near 2004.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did your dad's behavior change
12· · when he got on these pills?
13· · · · A.· ·It did.
14· · · · Q.· ·Explain that.
15· · · · A.· ·He was more irritable.· I would say more
16· · angry.· Let's see here.· Unrational, or I guess the
17· · word is irrational.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
19· · · · A.· ·And, I guess, just more -- more ready for,
20· · I guess, to where there would be violence.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, at some point --- we've all
22· · heard that your family went to Alaska, right?
23· · · · A.· ·Right.
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Tell us about the first time
YVer1f
·1· · your family went to Alaska.

·2· · · · · · ·About how old were you?
·3· · · · A.· ·I think I was 14.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that was kind of a
·5· · vacation?
·6· · · · A.· ·It was.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.
·8· · · · A.· ·Well, kind of like a vacation visit.· Our
·9· · friends, the Cinereskis --
10· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
11· · · · A.· ·-- they used to live in Minford --
12· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
13· · · · A.· ·-- just over by the Lucasville prison.
14· · And they pastored a church over there so -- they
15· · were originally from Alaska.
16· · · · · · ·I think it was 2006 they moved back to
17· · Alaska, so -- I think it was a year after, so it
18· · would have been 2007, I think, they invited us up
19· · so we decided to go for a week or two-week
20· · vacation.· We stayed at their place and viewed the
21· · lower part of Alaska in that area.
22· · · · Q.· ·Very enjoyable trip, right?
23· · · · A.· ·It was, yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Did you drive up as a family?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No.· We flew.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You flew up as a family.· All right.
·3· · · · · · ·And so you were a teenager at the time?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And did you enjoy the trip?
·6· · · · A.· ·I did very much.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Was there talk of staying in
·8· · Alaska?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Actually my parents actually had to
10· · make me get back on the plane because I was going
11· · to stay and have them go back.· Hey, you can grab
12· · all of the stuff and move back, I'm staying here.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And the same for George,
14· · right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·But you were teenagers.· Your parents won
17· · the day, so to speak, and everybody moved back to
18· · Ohio, right?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And so when you -- when was the next time
21· · you went back up?
22· · · · A.· ·The next time was in May of 2017.
23· · · · Q.· ·Right.· About a -- a little more than a
24· · year after these murders?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And what was the purpose of going up at
·3· · that time?
·4· · · · A.· ·To -- basically to confirm job
·5· · opportunities and potential property to live on and
·6· · to hopefully build a B&B business.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You wanted to get away from all of this
·8· · noise, so to speak, down here in Ohio about this
·9· · case, right?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes, that was -- well, in detail, I
11· · thought that, one, I didn't -- like, all of the
12· · rumors and all the -- how do you describe it?
13· · Maybe publicity maybe or -- however you call it.
14· · But it's like every time I would go to a store or
15· · whatever, people knew me and knew I was involved
16· · with Hanna.· They would basically bring up
17· · conversation about the homicides.· And as soon as I
18· · went practically everywhere with Sophia with me, it
19· · was hard for me to get people not talk about it
20· · or -- I mean, they were respectful.· Okay, yeah,
21· · don't talk about that, for the most part, if she
22· · was standing there, but it's something I always had
23· · to remind them of.
24· · · · · · ·So I had -- in order to get away from all
YVer1f
·1· · that so specifically Sophia wouldn't live under a

·2· · shadow and be, like, known as the girl whose
·3· · parents had been -- family was basically murdered.
·4· · And I had thought that God had basically showed me
·5· · sign after sign, you know, I was supposed to go to
·6· · Alaska.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Your family before this -- before the
·8· · murders, your family had talked about moving to
·9· · Alaska at various times, right?
10· · · · A.· ·Several times, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So this just, okay, now there's too
12· · much going on here, now's the time?
13· · · · A.· ·I think the words we actually focused on
14· · our discussions was, well, at this point, we really
15· · don't have no ties, so we can move.· There's
16· · nothing holding us here.· So, I mean, at the time I
17· · did have no ties, per se.· George didn't have no
18· · ties.· I mean, yeah, both, you know, parents'
19· · family on my mom and dad's side were still alive,
20· · but for the most part we could move without any
21· · ties.
22· · · · · · ·We actually discussed that, you know, in
23· · five years if it doesn't work, we could always come
24· · back.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Well, so you go up there in May of

·2· · 2017.· You stay for how long, about?
·3· · · · A.· ·In May?
·4· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · A.· ·I think we planned on staying for a couple
·6· · weeks, but because of the news broadcast
·7· · thingamajig, we shortened the trip, basically do
·8· · what we had to do and then come back.· Because our
·9· · potential jobs, which was basically secure upon
10· · appearance, basically fell through just like that.
11· · So there was no sense in actually pursuing that
12· · because it was a dead end.
13· · · · · · ·So we did look at a couple different
14· · little properties or whatever, but it was under --
15· · what's the word I'm looking for?· We did it just so
16· · we could actually, like, get a look at the land
17· · kind of thing, curiosity.· You know, we done a
18· · little bit of whitewater rafting-type stuff and
19· · little -- what do you call it?· Little rafting
20· · tours, a couple little things to get a little
21· · vacation like, and then hurried back to Ohio to
22· · take care of that situation.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And you'd sold the
24· · property over at Peterson at this point, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And most of your property was back here in
·3· · Ohio?
·4· · · · A.· ·Do what?
·5· · · · Q.· ·Most of your property, personal property.
·6· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Most of your personal property was back
·8· · here in Ohio, right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And you had stored it in these trailers
11· · over on Bernie Brown's property on Route 41, right?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·So you had to come back to get your stuff?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And so the reason you came
16· · back was to get your stuff and then return back up
17· · to Alaska?
18· · · · A.· ·I mean, that would still have taken place,
19· · but the reason to come back so shortly was
20· · specifically because the BCI part, but, yes, the --
21· · it would have still been within a couple of weeks
22· · we would have been back to get out stuff from
23· · Bernie Brown, yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Then once you got your stuff at
YVer1f
·1· · Bernie Brown's, you made arrangements and moved to

·2· · Alaska?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Now, with respect to
·5· · preparing -- preparing those trailers and getting
·6· · them over to Bernie Brown, you were actually
·7· · packing up the trailers at Peterson when BCI agents
·8· · came to visit you over at Peterson Road; isn't that
·9· · right?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And they talked to you, I believe, around
12· · the anniversary of these murders, so that would
13· · have been April of 2017.
14· · · · · · ·Was there a visit then?
15· · · · A.· ·Somewhere near there, yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And there was a second visit in May when
17· · you were actually packing up; is that right?
19· · · · A.· ·I think there was -- it may have been --
20· · this may have happened on the April one too, but I
21· · remember at least two visits when we was
22· · doing packing and -- because it took a while to
23· · pack.
24· · · · Q.· ·You had a lot of stuff?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·For the most, yes.· We would pack -- let's

·2· · see -- one, two, three, four trailers.· No.· Wait.
·3· · Three trailers.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But BCI agents were talking to you
·5· · about the murders on these visits, right?· That was
·6· · their purpose?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And they were asking you if
·9· · you knew who did it, if you could give them any
10· · clues, that type of information; isn't that true?
11· · · · A.· ·They did, yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And what did you say in response?
13· · · · A.· ·This isn't a quote because I don't
14· · remember every --
15· · · · Q.· ·In general.
16· · · · A.· ·I basically told them that I didn't have
17· · any knowledge of anything that would have could
18· · have or dealings.· I didn't tell them I knew about
19· · the grow ops or any of the businesses that Chris
20· · was doing.· Basically told them I had no idea.
21· · · · Q.· ·You lied to them?
22· · · · A.· ·Well, yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·More than once?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Repeatedly?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that was in April, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then they came back in
·6· · May, right?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And it was the same thing, right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·They were asking you for help in solving
11· · the murders, and you lied to them repeatedly?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·But you did tell them you were going to
14· · Alaska?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And they knew that, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you told them, I believe, that you
19· · were taking that -- those trailers with your
20· · personal belongings over to Route 41 and you're
21· · storing them over there while you were gone; is
22· · that right?
23· · · · A.· ·I did.
24· · · · Q.· ·And then as your family is heading up to
YVer1f
·1· · Alaska, you find out that BCI's over on Route 41

·2· · searching your property, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Well, it's prolonged.· They didn't start
·4· · searching until after we was in a dead zone in
·5· · Canada.· There were a few days we was in the dark.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Right.· There were a few days -- explain
·7· · why you were in the dark.
·8· · · · A.· ·Well, in a dead zone, there's no cell
·9· · phone service.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You're driving through Canada,
11· · western Canada?
12· · · · A.· ·I think we was outside Alberta and maybe
13· · coming into British Columbia, but yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You had no cell reception, so you
15· · didn't know what was going on.· But at some point
16· · you got cell reception?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I think we was in Yukon.· I think
18· · there's a town up there called White Horse.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
20· · · · A.· ·I think we was in White Horse, Yukon, when
21· · we finally got a phone call from -- I think it was
22· · my grandmother Wagner, and she informed my dad of
23· · what was going on.
24· · · · Q.· ·Right.· And your mother was upset, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·We was all upset.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You were upset, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you couldn't understand why BCI wanted
·5· · to search that property, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And so -- now, did your mother have a
·8· · habit of following this case on Facebook and Topix?
·9· · Was she always on Facebook and Topix wanting to
10· · know what was going on?
11· · · · A.· ·She did.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And she would tell you
13· · information she learned?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I mean, I personally done the same
15· · thing, so --
16· · · · Q.· ·That was my next question.· You kind of
17· · did the same thing?
18· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And explain that.
20· · · · A.· ·I mean, there was several sites on Topix,
21· · websites and several group discussions about the
22· · homicides.· There was several pages on Facebook
23· · where there was multiple people talking about
24· · scenarios.· A lot of them were outlandish rumors.
YVer1f
·1· · Some talking about different things, like people

·2· · had known them, people that didn't know them,
·3· · people thought they knew something or put across
·4· · their opinions or theories.· All news broadcasting
·5· · was put on there.· Multiple things like that.
·6· · · · Q.· ·So you and your mom were kind of keeping
·7· · tabs on what was going on back home?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· And there was a point whenever I
·9· · had tried to go on under someone else's name. I
10· · made a fake profile and I'd actually committed on a
11· · bunch of the stuff.
12· · · · Q.· ·On these murders?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Under a fake name?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·What was your fake name?
17· · · · A.· ·I think it was Josh something.· No.· Maybe
18· · drew something.· I can't remember what the name
19· · was.
20· · · · Q.· ·How did you come up with it?
21· · · · A.· ·I guess you call it stole.· Stole a photo
22· · of one of my friend Caleb Cinereski's friend from
23· · Alaska, went to his profile, went through his
24· · friends, found another photo of his friend, took
YVer1f
·1· · that photo and made me a profile that I lived in

·2· · Circleville, worked at Dupont and blah, blah, blah.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Put some effort into this?
·4· · · · A.· ·I did put some effort into it, yes.
·5· · · · · · ·But, now, granted, I started that profile
·6· · in -- kind of like as a fake profile to reconnect
·7· · with Hanna, to kind of see if she was open to a
·8· · relationship.· This was -- I started before the
·9· · homicides.
10· · · · Q.· ·You started this before the homicides?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But you continued it after the
13· · homicides?
14· · · · A.· ·I used it when I needed purposes to use
15· · it, yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Now, when you moved up to
17· · Alaska, you got a job, right?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·You talked about that earlier.· And you
20· · met Beth at the Cinereski church; is that right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·You were the type that liked to go to
23· · church?
24· · · · A.· ·I did like to go to church, yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·All right.· How many days a week would you
·2· · go to church?
·3· · · · A.· ·I started doing every day, but I ended up
·4· · doing Wednesday and twice on Sunday.· I started
·5· · that.· I only done that, like, maybe two weeks.
·6· · Ultimately I ended up going every Sunday morning.
·7· · Well, not every.· For the most part, almost every
·8· · Sunday.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And would you stay for the day
10· · or just for the service or how did that work?
11· · · · A.· ·I stayed for the service and maybe about
12· · 15 or so minutes later chitchatting with Caleb
13· · Cinereski, whatever else had a little topic or
14· · something, do a small chitchat with Sophia's Sunday
15· · schoolteacher.· Just little chitchat stuff, and
16· · then basically leave.
17· · · · Q.· ·And that's where you met Beth?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And how did you meet Beth there?
20· · · · A.· ·I mean, I seen her there.· And then I did
21· · tell her maybe, like, a couple hi, how are you
22· · doing as we were going through the door, type
23· · thing.· Good morning type thing.· Never actually
24· · talked to her.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·And other than -- like after that, I kind

·2· · of tried snooping on Facebook to see if I could
·3· · find anything out about her.
·4· · · · · · ·I really couldn't find much about her at
·5· · all, so I ended up just sending a message.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And what happened?
·7· · · · A.· ·She replied to my message.· She was
·8· · different.· Most people respond to a message once
·9· · you see it.· I don't think she responded right
10· · away.· I think it was a few days.· She maybe three
11· · or four days or so responded to it.· I think I said
12· · hello or howdy or something.· Maybe I just sent a
13· · wave.· I don't remember exactly what I sent.
14· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But that was kind of you
15· · reaching out, and then you developed a
16· · relationship; is that --
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.· That was my initial reach out to try
18· · to initiate a relationship, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And so you developed that relationship
20· · over a period of time, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·You introduced her to your little girl,
23· · right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And you would do various activities?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·What kind of activities would you do
·4· · there?
·5· · · · A.· ·With me and her, or with me and my
·6· · daughter and her?
·7· · · · Q.· ·Well, one at a time.
·8· · · · · · ·Let's say you and her to start with.· You
·9· · and Beth.
10· · · · A.· ·We started with dinner and talking.
11· · Basically we would just go to dinner, and then we
12· · would park in, like, the Fred Meyer's parking lot
13· · or any other -- like, a coffee shop parking lot,
14· · any other parking lot.· We'd just kind of talk for
15· · hours or so, get to know each other.
16· · · · · · ·I think I mentioned this the other day, it
17· · was time for our date, we had plans for dinner. I
18· · took her on the loop and taught her how to drive a
19· · stick shift.
20· · · · Q.· ·Right.
21· · · · A.· ·Which really that day's plan was supposed
22· · to be ice skating, but they weren't open so I went
23· · to plan B.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·And then there was a Saturday trip that we

·2· · had went to Mount Aleyska for snowboarding.· So we
·3· · went snowboarding together.· And I think those are
·4· · the only things that -- activities we had done
·5· · together, just me and her.· And then I introduced
·6· · her to Sophia and -- my plan or basically my idea
·7· · was if I was going to propose or marry her or
·8· · something, I would want to make sure Sophia was
·9· · okay with her first.· So I started taking her with
10· · me on the dates and we would go to dinner, and they
11· · would interact.· We would watch movies on the TV in
12· · my truck in the back seat.· And, again they would
13· · interact.· We went to a little Christmas light show
14· · as a family, the Christmas parade as a family.· Not
15· · that -- I say as a family.· I mean, like, my mom,
16· · brother, and Bulvine was there too.· So just
17· · various things like that.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And how long had you known her
19· · before you proposed?
20· · · · A.· ·I think I met her in October of 2017
21· · and -- well, no.· I think our first date was
22· · October.· So I probably met her sometime in
23· · September, I think; maybe August.· It might have
24· · been September.· If I'm not mistaken, I think our
YVer1f
·1· · total -- I can't remember exactly when I proposed,

·2· · but I do believe we'd known each other, from
·3· · start-to-finish type thing, about seven months
·4· · before we got married.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Seven months before you got married?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And you were kind of looking for a wife to
·8· · be a mother figure towards Sophia, fair enough?
·9· · · · A.· ·I was.
10· · · · Q.· ·You had killed her other mother?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·You're looking for a good Christian woman
13· · to help you raise Sophia?
14· · · · A.· ·I was.
15· · · · Q.· ·And you considered Beth to be that person?
16· · · · A.· ·I thought she was, yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Did you later learn that she wasn't?
18· · · · A.· ·I later, through my observation, seen that
19· · she was not who I thought she was.· While we was in
20· · Alaska, of course she lived with a pair of --
21· · family of missionaries.· She participated in all of
22· · the church outings, all of the church preparations.
23· · She worked in the nursery.
24· · · · · · ·When they went to support the fire
YVer1f
·1· · department or the police on certain days, they'd

·2· · bring cookies and supporting stuff and all of the
·3· · charity stuff, mission stuff, prayed, sang, Bible
·4· · studies, all of those things.· And, to me, it
·5· · seemed like, yeah, she was an ideal Christian
·6· · woman.· Didn't think she was, well, a liar or
·7· · whatever else.· And periodically after our marriage
·8· · I found out differently.
·9· · · · Q.· ·What did you find out differently?
10· · · · A.· ·Well, she lied to me on our wedding night.
11· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean?
12· · · · A.· ·So basically -- okay.· I guess detail. I
13· · am an anime fan.· Anime is basically more older
14· · cartoons in Japan.· They translate them into
15· · English and air them on late-night Cartoon Network
16· · or whatever else.· In some population it's very
17· · popular.
18· · · · · · ·So, anyway, at the time, the last episode
19· · was supposed to air, my wedding night.· So probably
20· · around -- well, late on our wedding night, I had
21· · told her -- I left my phone with Sophia so she
22· · would have something to play on while I was gone
23· · that night.· So I asked her if she could use her
24· · phone to watch the final episode.· I said she could
YVer1f
·1· · watch it with me.· She agreed with that.· So she

·2· · did.· And I went on her phone -- when I went to the
·3· · YouTube whatever to type in the episode --
·4· · · · Q.· ·Right.
·5· · · · A.· ·-- you know how recent history will pop
·6· · up?
·7· · · · Q.· ·Right.
·8· · · · A.· ·A whole list of how to become a white
·9· · witch, witch spells, spells of love, all this kind
10· · of witchcraft stuff popped up.
11· · · · Q.· ·What was your reaction to that?
12· · · · A.· ·Very shocking, because, you know,
13· · naturally nobody wants to marry a witch.· I mean,
14· · it's pretty serious stuff.
15· · · · · · ·So I asked.· I'm like, what the heck is
16· · this?· Well, she said, oh, it must be a search
17· · suggestion.· Well, I knew it wasn't a search
18· · suggestion, but, nonetheless, I let it go.
19· · · · · · ·So after that, as I was going through
20· · Canada on my way back down to Ohio, I had -- well,
21· · she had called me and told me something along the
22· · lines of if her brother calls her or whatever not
23· · to answer it -- calls me, not to answer the phone,
24· · yada -- some situation or whatever.· Apparently he
YVer1f
·1· · was stalking one of the Noels' daughters or making

·2· · passes at her.· She's underage and all that stuff.
·3· · Basically being a creep, pedophile-type thing. I
·4· · don't know.· I was like, okay.· Well, if he does, I
·5· · won't -- I'll just ignore me.· Which he did text --
·6· · call me, and I never answered the phone.· She told
·7· · me not to.
·8· · · · · · ·But basically she had told me before I
·9· · left that she was having doubts in her faith.· Is
10· · the Bible true?· Is God real?· The same as -- is
11· · there a God, or basically the Bible and all that
12· · stuff.· So it was in that time frame I was praying
13· · for a lot.
14· · · · · · ·Anyway, so I get back to the lower 48 and
15· · the -- once I get to the hotel down, it was down in
16· · Missouri, my dad picked her up, we're all there,
17· · she -- she decided that -- you know, we're all in
18· · that room all together and basically the suggestion
19· · come up, you know, I asked the question -- kind of
20· · like a 21-question game; you ask the question, I
21· · ask the question.· Kind of how to get to know
22· · everybody.· And somehow or another the question got
23· · asked of something -- she described something about
24· · she was part of a cult or something, various cults
YVer1f
·1· · when she was younger and a teenager in Texas.

·2· · Apparently big cult things.· Which she had not told
·3· · me.· And it was just strange.· So I felt like she
·4· · was hiding something from me.
·5· · · · · · ·And once we got back to Ohio, her -- her
·6· · whole lifestyle just basically changed.· She wasn't
·7· · wanting to do any of the things that she had done
·8· · with the Noels in Alaska.· She was -- it was
·9· · strange.· It was basically as if I had been
10· · deceived or something.· I mean --
11· · · · Q.· ·Now, as I understand it, you got married
12· · in Alaska, right?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you and the rest of your
15· · family left for Missouri, was it?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And Beth had to stay behind and fly in
18· · later?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I think it was about three days.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So on your wedding night, did you
21· · consummate the marriage?
22· · · · A.· ·I'm assuming that means what normally
23· · happens on a wedding night.
24· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And that was perfectly average and normal
·3· · and expected, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You didn't force her in any way?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I don't know if you
·8· · want to take a break or if we should continue on.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Why don't we continue for a
10· · little bit.
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Okay.· That's fine.
13· · · · Q.· ·Let's talk about your daughter Sophia for
14· · a moment.
15· · · · A.· ·Okay.
16· · · · Q.· ·Obviously you very much love her and very
17· · close to her?
18· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Say it again.
19· · · · Q.· ·You very much love her and you're very
20· · close to her?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I would describe -- we have a very
22· · special bond.
23· · · · Q.· ·And what were your plans for Sophia?
24· · · · · · ·I mean, everybody has plans for their
YVer1f
·1· · children, right?

·2· · · · A.· ·Are you talking about future plans?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Future plans for Sophia.
·4· · · · · · ·What were your hopes and aspirations and
·5· · dreams for her?
·6· · · · A.· ·Well, obviously, I want her to grow up as
·7· · a, you know, good Christian.· I want her to pursue
·8· · college.· She had told me -- when she was old
·9· · enough to actually talk and whatever, she'd always
10· · said something along the lines of always wanting to
11· · be a baby doctor.· So I hope that she would grow up
12· · and, you know, pursue a successful career.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · A.· ·So, of course, you know, children's minds
15· · change, so she wanted to be a baby doctor, I wanted
16· · to support that.· I wanted to be able to have the
17· · money to support that.
18· · · · · · ·I want her to grow up to where she would
19· · not have an abusive relationship.· I want her to
20· · have a good man for a husband, have lots of babies,
21· · lots of grand babies.
22· · · · · · ·I just wanted a good, you know -- a good
23· · life for her.
24· · · · Q.· ·Did you think Hanna would be the proper
YVer1f
·1· · mom for her?

·2· · · · A.· ·Can I answer that in detail?· It's not a
·3· · yes-or-no question.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Take your time.
·5· · · · A.· ·I love Hanna.· And it was not love at
·6· · first sight.· She grew on me.· When her and I had
·7· · talked about babies, which was after I proposed to
·8· · her, which was before Sophia was conceived.· So I
·9· · did not ask her to marry me because she got
10· · pregnant.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
12· · · · A.· ·She -- she wanted babies.· She said,
13· · Everybody's having babies but me.· Tabitha's having
14· · a baby, her friends was having babies, Chelsea had
15· · a baby.· Everybody was having babies.
16· · · · · · ·The biggest thing was she wanted to have a
17· · baby.· She wanted to be the first one to have a
18· · grandbaby for my mom.· It was too late.· Now
19· · Bulvine was already conceived.· At first I was
20· · resistant on that.· I felt she needed to finish
21· · school, you know, get a little older, myself be
22· · older, more situated, own house, that type thing,
23· · but she was firm on the subject.
24· · · · · · ·Matter of fact, she's actually the one
YVer1f
·1· · that -- I can't say forced because you can't force

·2· · the willing.· But the night Sophia was conceived,
·3· · that was all her.· I had one arm defenseless; that
·4· · was all her.
·5· · · · · · ·But once that happened, we had talked
·6· · about babies, all kinds of stuff.· We had sat down
·7· · and we had talked about what we wanted for our
·8· · children in order and how close in age they would
·9· · have been, how many we wanted, the type of parents
10· · we would be.
11· · · · · · ·She wanted to be a better mother than her
12· · own mother.· I wanted to be a better father than my
13· · father.· There was several things we talked about.
14· · We didn't want them to be -- it depends how many
15· · children there was going to be.
16· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
17· · · · A.· ·We didn't want them to be in certain
18· · environments.· We didn't want them to be subjected
19· · to certain types of lifestyles.· Our biggest thing
20· · was protection.
21· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by lifestyles and
22· · protection?
23· · · · A.· ·We didn't want either -- any of our
24· · children to be -- I don't want to offend anybody.
YVer1f
·1· · But the word that we had invented as teenagers was

·2· · dudtards.· We didn't want our children to be
·3· · dudtards.
·4· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that?
·5· · · · A.· ·You know what a dud is, right?
·6· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?
·7· · · · A.· ·A dud?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · A.· ·Okay.
10· · · · Q.· ·You tell me what it is so there's no
11· · misunderstanding.
12· · · · A.· ·Let's say if I shot a gun and it went
13· · click but there's no bang, it's a dud.
14· · · · Q.· ·Right.
15· · · · A.· ·It's good for nothing.· So it's supposed
16· · to do something, but it failed.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
18· · · · A.· ·It's a dud.· And obviously tard is the
19· · last word of retard.· Again, I don't want to offend
20· · anyone because I -- I known retarded people and I
21· · love them to death.· I have no problem.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
23· · · · A.· ·So I don't want to sound racist.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·But obviously a mental retarded person is

·2· · not all there.· You know, they don't have the
·3· · ability to perform like a normal person.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Go on.
·5· · · · A.· ·So we made the word dudtard.· Basically
·6· · means good-for-nothing person that would never
·7· · prosper.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·9· · · · A.· ·So we didn't want our children to be
10· · dudtards.· We wanted them to pursue a lifestyle of,
11· · well, successful.· You know, go to college, pick a
12· · job, you know.· Even if it was farming or whatever,
13· · we still wanted them to go to college and be a
14· · successful honor roll student type thing.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
16· · · · A.· ·I didn't want our children to go to public
17· · school because our public school system -- well,
18· · for what I had seen and witnessed in people, they
19· · just -- not all, but many, they didn't -- they were
20· · subject and presented bad influence.· That's one of
21· · the reasons why myself and my brother was not going
22· · to public school.· A lot of drug use in the public
23· · school system.· My parents didn't want to be
24· · subject to that.· Neither do I.· I didn't want my
YVer1f
·1· · children subject to drug use or even premarital

·2· · sex, you know, possibly getting pregnant as a
·3· · teenager and all that stuff.
·4· · · · · · ·Now, granted I -- you know, that kind of
·5· · happened to me anyway, but it -- I was subject to
·6· · peer pressure and all other kinds of things for
·7· · various things.
·8· · · · · · ·So that was one thing.· We didn't want our
·9· · children to be subject to those types of things.
10· · · · · · ·She was fine with all these things.· She
11· · put tons of things on parenting that we -- well, I
12· · stuck to.· I'm not trying to -- I don't want to
13· · talk bad about her.· I don't want people to have a
14· · bad image of her.· But after she left me, she --
15· · it's like she gave up our parenting standards and
16· · just kept going down and down and down.
17· · · · · · ·There was various times she accused me of
18· · trying to be the better parent and I tried to make
19· · her look bad.· I told her I was absolutely not
20· · trying to make her look bad.· We had a standard;
21· · I'm staying to it.· You can't blame me for trying
22· · to be super dad when you're supposed to be super
23· · mom.· I held to my standard.· I'm being super dad.
24· · I'm not trying to make you look bad; you're just
YVer1f
·1· · not doing what you said you was going to do.
·2· · · · · · ·She always got mad at me for that.· She
·3· · got mad at me because she said Sophia liked me
·4· · better than her.· I'm, like, that's not true.
·5· · Yeah, I mean, she wants to be with me and, you
·6· · know, all of the things that I do with her and all
·7· · that.· It's not my fault, but she's going to have
·8· · to have a relationship.
·9· · · · · · ·As a matter of fact, since she was a baby,
10· · every time -- there were various people in both
11· · sides of the family, you know, they do the -- I
12· · don't know how to state this.· You know, they do
13· · the "who do you want" test.· Hold the baby up and
14· · then both parents side by side, which one does the
15· · baby go for.· And she always went to me.· Sophia
16· · always went to me.· I didn't try to do that; she
17· · just did.
18· · · · · · ·And after our breakup, she -- I don't
19· · know.· She started doing -- I don't know.· She
20· · started smoking again.· I did not know initially
21· · that she was sleeping around and I don't want to
22· · believe that she actually cheated on me, at least
23· · sexually.· I was told by various people that she
24· · did.· I don't believe it, not even to this day. I
YVer1f
·1· · do think she was talking to other people.

·2· · · · · · ·There was a couple of times that I had --
·3· · I don't know.· I think she did start talking to
·4· · Charlie Gilley before our breakup, but I don't
·5· · believe to this day that she cheated on me.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, you know that she had a baby, Kylee,
·7· · right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you know you're not the
10· · father of Kylee?
11· · · · A.· ·I know that.
12· · · · Q.· ·And I believe it's Charlie Gilley; isn't
13· · that right?
14· · · · A.· ·It is.
15· · · · Q.· ·And she was seeing another young man named
16· · Corey, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you knew Corey?
19· · · · A.· ·I had met him, yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·You met him while they were dating, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·You were quite jealous of her and her
23· · relationships?
24· · · · A.· ·I mean --
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You wanted her back, right?

·2· · · · A.· ·I did want her -- I guess you could say I
·3· · was jealous, yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You were very jealous?
·5· · · · A.· ·I mean, maybe I'm deceiving myself, but, I
·6· · mean, I was jealous to an extent, yes, I was.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And you were concerned that the type of
·8· · people she was hanging around would abuse your
·9· · daughter, right?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·That was consuming you at that time?· That
12· · was on your mind all of the time; isn't that fair?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Now, of course, this happened --
14· · now, I had basic concern from, you know, when she
15· · started telling me she had a boyfriend and
16· · whatever.· But the consuming part -- I guess that
17· · is a good word -- that didn't happen until after
18· · Sophia started having reactions of how she would
19· · basically cling to me and scream and cry and just
20· · have that terror look in her eyes, not going home,
21· · after she had told me that Corey had locked her in
22· · the bedroom and that kind of thing.· That's when --
23· · you used the word consuming.· That's a good word.
24· · I would say I was -- overcome in fear would be more
YVer1f
·1· · along -- I guess consuming would work.· That'd

·2· · work.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Now, when you and Hanna were together and
·4· · you found out she was pregnant, do you remember
·5· · that?
·6· · · · A.· ·I do.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And there was at some point
·8· · you realized that she was going to have a little
·9· · girl, right?
10· · · · · · ·You knew that in advance of her birth?
11· · · · A.· ·I mean -- yes.· Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And it's my understanding that certain
13· · things went through your head as soon as you found
14· · out you were going to have a little girl.
16· · · · A.· ·I mean, there's various points.· When she
17· · told me she was pregnant and I told her -- asked
18· · her, rather, if she thought -- I guess, actually
19· · played.· I do not know she did not know the
20· · possibility was not possible for me to be the
21· · father, but apparently she didn't know.
22· · · · · · ·But I had told her that if Charlie was the
23· · father, not to even tell him about it and just --
24· · if she'd come back, I would take care of the baby
YVer1f
·1· · if it was mine or not.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· We'll get to that.· I guess maybe
·3· · my question wasn't clear.· Let me try rephrase it.
·4· · · · A.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · Q.· ·When you found out that she was pregnant
·6· · with Sophia --
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·-- all right? -- you found out in advance
·9· · you were going to have a little girl?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you had some concerns
12· · immediately upon finding out you were going to have
13· · a little girl; is that right?
14· · · · A.· ·When you say "concerns," do you mean like
15· · ideas and certain fears of what could possibly
16· · happen?
17· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Tell us about that.
20· · · · A.· ·I think I touched on the subject the other
21· · day, but when I learned I was going to be a father
22· · to a baby girl, and even at the time when my
23· · daughter was born and I held her, I basically
24· · had -- what do you call it?· Flash forwards, maybe.
YVer1f
·1· · You know what a flashback is?

·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · A.· ·So I guess it would be flash forward of
·4· · basically potentially people hurting my daughter.
·5· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that?
·6· · · · A.· ·Well, I mean, it's not a secret of today
·7· · that there are many rapes and child molesting,
·8· · child abuse, all kinds of things happening
·9· · everywhere, and most usually in the most uncommon
10· · and unexpected ways.· So I had fears of flash
11· · forwards of these potential events happening to my
12· · daughter.
13· · · · Q.· ·And that's from the moment you learned you
14· · were having a little girl?
15· · · · A.· ·Well, I wouldn't say the moment as.· The
16· · first thing I feel was joy, you know.· Going to be
17· · a little girl.· It's kind of, like, oh, you get a
18· · birthday present.· You open the present and you're
19· · all excited, and, oh, I got socks.· So, you know, I
20· · got joy and then came the fears.· So it was like
21· · a --
22· · · · Q.· ·And was that -- what was that fear based
23· · on?
24· · · · A.· ·Well, past experience with people I knew.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean?

·2· · · · A.· ·Well, I mean, I -- Hanna had told me she
·3· · that had been abused.· She was raped.· I think she
·4· · said she was 11.· My ex-sister-in-law, Tabitha, she
·5· · had been abused since she was, like, seven.· I have
·6· · a cousin that was abused.
·7· · · · · · ·My mother.· I'm not -- I don't know the
·8· · statistics or the exact stuff, just what my dad
·9· · told me but apparently my mother was sexually
10· · assaulted is -- I think is the word Canepa used --
11· · when she was in the military.· I don't know all of
12· · the details on that.
13· · · · · · ·But these various things caused me to be
14· · very protective of a child's innocence,
15· · specifically my child.
16· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Now, when you went to Missouri
17· · from Alaska -- you had been laid off in Alaska?
18· · · · A.· ·I had.· And it was at -- my last job I
19· · wasn't laid off.· I actually quit that one so I
20· · could to move back.
21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· George had been laid off from
22· · his job, right?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And your mom didn't have a job up there,
YVer1f
·1· · right?
·2· · · · A.· ·That's right.
·3· · · · Q.· ·So money wasn't coming in.· It was a
·4· · hardship, right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.· It was tight.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And Alaska's a very expensive place to
·7· · live, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·It is.
·9· · · · Q.· ·So there was a decision that you need to
10· · find a better job somewhere?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·You found one with this trucking company
13· · called R & L, right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And you had a job in Missouri, and that
16· · was one of the reasons why you went to Missouri was
17· · to work this job for R & L; is that right?
18· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Well, see, we called -- we called
19· · about the positions, and interviews was set up.
20· · Basically with what we had told the hiring person,
21· · it was safe to say we had a job, yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And so that was in Missouri
23· · through R & L?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And when you got there and you
·2· · did the interviews, you found out the job wasn't
·3· · exactly what you expected; is that right?
·4· · · · · · ·It didn't pay as much as you thought?
·5· · · · A.· ·I mean, there was a little
·6· · miscommunication on how they described the pay, so,
·7· · I mean -- it ended up being half of what it was
·8· · supposed to be, what it was described to be,
·9· · anyway.
10· · · · Q.· ·Right.· But you also found out that R & L
11· · had the higher paying job in Ohio?
12· · · · A.· ·Oh.· I mean, the one we was talking about
13· · in Kansas City was single driver; so basically home
14· · every night.
15· · · · Q.· ·Right.
16· · · · A.· ·The one that was in Wilmington was team
17· · driving; so basically gone five days a week.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you make more money?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes, you make more money.
20· · · · Q.· ·A lot more money?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And George wanted to come back
23· · and take the job in Ohio because it paid a lot more
24· · money, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·He did.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And you wanted to stay in Missouri?
·3· · · · A.· ·I did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And he said I'm going back to Ohio with or
·5· · without you, I'm going for that high paying job,
·6· · I'll find somebody to team with me; is that right?
·7· · · · A.· ·He did say that.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And you wanted to stay in Missouri; your
·9· · mother wanted to stay in Missouri?· And your dad
10· · was already back?
11· · · · A.· ·Dad was already back.· I did want to stay
12· · in Missouri.· I think Mom -- I think she was kind
13· · of like on the fence.· I can't remember her
14· · actually saying she wanted to stay or not, but I do
15· · remember she was looking hard for a way to stay.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So George basically said, I'm
17· · leaving with Bulvine, I'm going back to Ohio, I'm
18· · getting this higher paying job?
19· · · · A.· ·Not in those words, but yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·He was insistent?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He was insistent.
22· · · · Q.· ·Now, as I understand it, you -- talking at
23· · the time of the murders, which let's use that as
24· · the date.· We can talk before and after, but let's
YVer1f
·1· · use that as the date.

·2· · · · · · ·At the time of the murders you considered
·3· · yourself a pretty religious person; is that fair to
·4· · say?
·5· · · · A.· ·At the time I did.
·6· · · · Q.· ·You attended church?
·7· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Say that --
·8· · · · Q.· ·You attended church?
·9· · · · A.· ·I think the word would be occasionally,
10· · but it was more along the lines of about once a
11· · year at that time.
12· · · · Q.· ·Not as much?
13· · · · A.· ·No.
14· · · · Q.· ·But you read the Bible?
15· · · · A.· ·Bits and places, yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you had opinions about
17· · what a good Christian was?
18· · · · A.· ·I did.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you were one that would share those
20· · opinions with others; isn't that right?
21· · · · A.· ·I did.
22· · · · Q.· ·And even if somebody didn't want to hear
23· · it, if they were living a lifestyle or doing
24· · something you didn't think was the Christian way,
YVer1f
·1· · you were one to tell them right to their face, were
·2· · you not?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you did that all the time
·5· · with George, did you not?
·6· · · · A.· ·Wait.· To George?· Like, talking to George
·7· · or others?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Talking to George.
·9· · · · A.· ·Oh, a lot of times, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·You told him he was going to hell.
11· · · · A.· ·I think I said that a couple of times.
12· · · · Q.· ·More than a couple of times, isn't it?
13· · Probably every day.
14· · · · A.· ·Maybe not every day.
15· · · · Q.· ·But almost every day, if not every day?
16· · · · A.· ·I criticized him a lot, yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·In fact, you used the phrase George,
18· · you're going to hell if you don't change your ways?
19· · · · A.· ·I may have said it that way once or twice.
20· · · · Q.· ·And you would do that to other people too,
21· · right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
23· · · · Q.· ·You were known to voice your opinion about
24· · whether someone had a lifestyle you approved of or
YVer1f
·1· · a lifestyle you didn't approve of?

·2· · · · A.· ·Among several other things, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that would cause you
·4· · problems, right?· Some people didn't like that?
·5· · · · A.· ·No, because I -- I spoke my mind and
·6· · people would label me as an A-hole for that.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Right.· And that would cause you problems,
·8· · sometimes maybe even a fight or an argument?
·9· · · · A.· ·I mean, yeah.· Physically, I've only been
10· · in a few fights, but, yes, that's why they were
11· · caused.
12· · · · Q.· ·And that's how you got that nickname,
13· · right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yep.
15· · · · Q.· ·Do you ever remember a trip with George on
16· · R & L --
17· · · · · · ·Well, let me ask you this.· Eventually you
18· · came to Ohio and you and George became team drivers
19· · for R & L, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·You were gone five days a week together,
22· · right?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·You'd go all over the country doing your
YVer1f
·1· · job?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·You had a big sleeper cab on the back of
·4· · the truck, right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·So that's where one would sleep or hang
·7· · out back there while the other one drove, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And you were on the road practically
10· · 24 hours a day; is that fair to say?
11· · · · A.· ·Four or five days a week.· Sometimes, you
12· · know, if we went over, we had guaranteed two days
13· · home.· So sometimes we would go in a little late or
14· · whatever to make up the 48 hours, but yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·So -- but you would take shifts driving,
16· · right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And your shift was during the daylight
19· · hours, generally speaking; is that right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And George's was at nighttime?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And, in fact, George drove a
24· · little bit more than you because sometimes it was
YVer1f
·1· · more dark than light depending on the time of year?

·2· · · · A.· ·Even if it was my turn to drive, yes, he
·3· · drove at night.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· And, I mean, you had poor eyesight;
·5· · isn't that right?
·6· · · · A.· ·I still have poor -- worse poor eyesight.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Your eyesight's gone downhill, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Well, let's put it this way.· I've always
·9· · had -- well, until recently, excellent eyesight in
10· · the day, but I've always had poor night sight.
11· · · · Q.· ·And that's why George would drive during
12· · the day?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Or drive at night and you would drive the
15· · day?
16· · · · A.· ·He always said basically if he let me
17· · drive at night, I would get him killed.
18· · · · Q.· ·In fact, you had an accident with R & L,
19· · didn't you?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us about that?
22· · · · A.· ·As he describes it, I run over the short
23· · bus.
24· · · · Q.· ·Well, you tell us.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·This would have been in Oklahoma City, and

·2· · it was about 4:00 or so o'clock in the morning.· It
·3· · was dark.· And a short school bus pulled out in
·4· · front of me.· I did not see it.· I had -- well, I
·5· · looked to the left and then back.· It was only for
·6· · a second.· I don't know how I didn't see the thing
·7· · coming out or even there at the stop sign.· It come
·8· · out and I -- I did stop, but basically our two
·9· · vehicles collided and the front passenger side of
10· · the vehicle that I was driving into the rear
11· · driver's side of the short bus.
12· · · · Q.· ·Nobody got hurt seriously, is that what
13· · you're saying?
14· · · · A.· ·Well, thank God there was -- the bus only
15· · had the driver on it.· It was before the children
16· · got on the bus.· So, yeah, nobody was hurt.· Well,
17· · I mean --
18· · · · Q.· ·That was an example of you either not
19· · paying attention or not having good eyesight?
20· · · · A.· ·A little of both.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
22· · · · · · ·Now, as you were growing up, your father
23· · would teach you to be very observant, right?
24· · · · A.· ·He did.· Now, he taught me to be very
YVer1f
·1· · observant, yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Explain that a little, please.
·3· · · · A.· ·He taught me how to look straight ahead,
·4· · like, say if I was driving, but observe my
·5· · surrounding through peripheral vision.· He taught
·6· · me to -- how to have a -- when entering a room to
·7· · instantly search corners, you know, areas where
·8· · cameras would be, pay attention to road signs,
·9· · always pay attention to shadows.· Various elements
10· · to if someone was hiding in or a camera or if a
11· · vehicle could pull up.
12· · · · · · ·Now, this was not only just for, you know,
13· · sneaky stuff, illegal stuff; it was also for
14· · self-protection and even good driving habits.
15· · Basically to keep yourself from wrecking.· Because
16· · even if the light was green, for example, there
17· · could always be somebody running their red light.
18· · That type of stuff.
19· · · · Q.· ·And your father always thought that
20· · somebody was listening or could listen in on
21· · conversations; is that right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.· That was hardwired into my childhood
23· · to basically -- no matter where you was, pretend as
24· · if someone was -- not pretend.· Basically assume
YVer1f
·1· · that someone was listening or whatever.· Basically

·2· · he would talk as if something was -- what's the
·3· · word I'm looking for?· As if someone was listening
·4· · to something you didn't want them to know.
·5· · · · Q.· ·He didn't like talking in front of, like,
·6· · a television, did he?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes, he did not.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Because he thought somebody could listen
·9· · or would see through the television?
10· · · · A.· ·He did.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And other things like what?
12· · · · A.· ·Cell phones, television.· Yeah, anything
13· · of the sort, yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·So it was not unusual that he didn't want
15· · people talking in front of those types of devices
16· · where somebody could hear?
17· · · · A.· ·That is -- you say is not uncommon?
18· · · · Q.· ·Was not uncommon with you growing up.
19· · · · A.· ·True.· Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And after the murders, your mother was
21· · especially vigilant or on the lookout for different
22· · things as well; is that right?
23· · · · A.· ·When you say "vigilant," you mean like
24· · fervently?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Explain that.
·4· · · · A.· ·I mean, she -- she more monitored, like,
·5· · you know, the websites I told you about earlier,
·6· · the Topix and stuff like that.
·7· · · · · · ·She monitored -- well, not monitored, but
·8· · basically, you know, keeping an eye out to see what
·9· · kind of vehicles drive by the house, that kind of
10· · thing.
11· · · · · · ·Which -- at some point, I mean, there is
12· · reason behind some of that because one of the
13· · nights -- I believe this was after the murders.
14· · Yeah, it was.· That we was spotlighting.· Some dude
15· · showed up at our house at, like, 10:00 or
16· · 11:00 o'clock at night claiming to -- I forget what
17· · he claimed he was looking for.· He was looking for
18· · something or somebody; I forget.· Anyway, it really
19· · freaked Mom out.· We canceled our hunting trip for
20· · that moment.· I went back to stay home while
21· · everybody else continued on their poaching trip.
22· · · · · · ·So especially situations after that, she
23· · was very observant on people or electronically --
24· · various situations, but yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·She was a little paranoid; is that fair to

·2· · say?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And to the point where she was concerned
·5· · about a sniper shooting you or her or another
·6· · family member over on Peterson Road, right?
·7· · · · · · ·Do you remember anything about that?
·8· · · · A.· ·Well, specifically -- are you saying that,
·9· · like, we being on Peterson Road and being shot, or
10· · being shot from Peterson Road?
11· · · · Q.· ·Well, if you were at Peterson Road, that
12· · someone in revenge for the murders might shoot you?
13· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.· And, actually, I had started
14· · wearing a gun after that, so -- but the potential
15· · place was across the creek.
16· · · · Q.· ·Across the creek?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·That's like across Peterson Road?
19· · · · A.· ·You cross our cornfield --
20· · · · Q.· ·Cross the cornfield.
21· · · · A.· ·There's the creek and then you've got the
22· · road.· Then there's, like, a hill that goes up to,
23· · like, a power tower.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you were concerned about a
YVer1f
·1· · sniper from up there?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And your mother was concerned too?
·4· · · · A.· ·She was.· So was my father.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And your father.
·6· · · · · · ·Now, let me just make sure I have your
·7· · interviews down pat.
·8· · · · · · ·You were interviewed by BCI after the
·9· · murders, around August or September the same year
10· · of the murders; is that right?
11· · · · A.· ·Give or take, yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then around the anniversary in
13· · April, late April; is that right?
14· · · · A.· ·There was one at that point, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And then another one in May that you
16· · talked about a little while ago, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And then there was the one in Montana?
19· · · · A.· ·Well, that was more interrogation, but
20· · yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·That was an interrogation.
22· · · · · · ·That lasted how many hours, would you say?
23· · · · A.· ·Six, I think.
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And at that interrogation in
YVer1f
·1· · Montana, that's when you were coming back through

·2· · Canada towards the lower 48, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·That would have been in what year?
·5· · · · A.· ·2017.
·6· · · · Q.· ·2017.· So just a little more than a year
·7· · after the murder, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·A short time after those other interviews
10· · you just mentioned?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·April, May, and then another -- this
13· · interrogation in Montana?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And how many hours did that interrogation
16· · last?
17· · · · A.· ·About six.
18· · · · Q.· ·About six hours.
19· · · · · · ·And the BCI agents, there were two of
20· · them, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·They interrogated you pretty aggressively
23· · would you agree with me?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And they said, We've got you, Jake.· This
·2· · is not a quote.· But more or less, they said, we've
·3· · got you, Jake, now's your time to come clean and
·4· · help us out.
·5· · · · · · ·Isn't that what they said, more or less?
·6· · · · A.· ·I believe they may have used words like
·7· · that.· I remember a phrase smoking gun and you
·8· · going to prison.· I mean, I specifically remember
·9· · one of them specifically telling me that I was
10· · going to go to prison.
11· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Your Honor, we're going to
12· · object.· Can we approach?
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
17· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· The BCI agents questions are
18· · hearsay.
19· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· The effect upon him.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Not only that, but he can't
21· · get into his statement to the BCI agents because
22· · that's a codefendant statement.
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's in furtherance of the
24· · conspiracy.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· If you want to say did you

·2· · lie or did you -- we won't object to that.· But to
·3· · talk about the details of the conversation, that's
·4· · the codefendants conspiracy statement, and you
·5· · cannot put it.
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's in furtherance of the
·7· · conspiracy.· They showed him evidence.· He denied,
·8· · denied, denied.
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· You can ask him if he denied.
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I can't ask him if he denied
11· · unless I can lay the foundation as to what he
12· · denied.
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, then you can't do
14· · anything because the rule is you can't put the
15· · statement in.
16· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· You can say isn't it true you
17· · lied to them.
18· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Hasn't there already been
19· · testimony he was interviewed in Montana.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I did not go into the
21· · content.· I asked what order they went out.· That's
22· · it.· That an interview occurred does not open it up
23· · to content.· I did.
24· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Do other witnesses open that
YVer1f
·1· · door?
·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· No.· Never said anything
·3· · about the content, specifically stayed away from
·4· · it.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· You didn't get to the content
·6· · but the nevertheless --
·7· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Didn't get the content.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What is it we're going to ask
·9· · him?· That I'm still --
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, what I would like to
11· · ask him is how they showed him the evidence,
12· · including the shoes and including the bloody photos
13· · and told him this was his chance to come clean and
14· · he denied he had any part in the crimes.
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That's content.
16· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· It's an inconsistent statement.
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· That does not matter.· You
18· · still cannot put it into evidence because it is a
19· · codefendant's statement.
20· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He denied -- he lied to them.
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It didn't matter he lied.
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· But I got to say what he lied
23· · about.
24· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Even for impeachment, it's not
YVer1f
·1· · substantive.
·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You're saying they can't ask
·3· · him if he lied to the authorities?
·4· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· If he wants to ask that
·5· · limited question, did you lie to them, we would
·6· · agree to that limited thing.· But to go into the
·7· · content of the interview is putting his statement
·8· · in and they cannot do it.· It's that rule that we
·9· · talked about already, the hearsay 801.
11· · · · · · ·I'll permit you to ask him whether he
12· · lied.
13· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· It's not offered for the
14· · substance; it's for impeachment.
15· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· It does matter, because you
16· · cannot put it in for any --
17· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· The impeachment is complete
18· · if he says he lied.
19· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· There has to be some context
20· · to it.
21· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· The real rule is you can't
22· · ask it at all.· We are conceding in saying we won't
23· · object if you just simply say he lied for the six
24· · hours or five hours or however long it was.· That,
YVer1f
·1· · you cannot get into context and that's more than
·2· · what you should be permitted to do is what we were
·3· · saying.· It's like saying, you know, being in parts
·4· · of George's statement.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Another matter.· It's 11:50. I
·6· · don't know what we -- schedule or thinking --
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, all right.· So maybe
·8· · we'll just recess for lunch now.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I can wrap this up, this
10· · particular topic.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What's that?
12· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I can ask a couple more
13· · questions and wrap this up.
14· · · · · · ·I think you're sustaining that objection.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I will sustain it, but you can
16· · ask whether he lied.
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· All right.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· You may proceed.
22· · · · · · ·The Court will sustain the last objection,
23· · but will permit you to continue on the subject
24· · matter.
YVer1f

·3· · · · Q.· ·Jake, at Montana, you lied to the agents
·4· · repeatedly about what happened here; isn't that
·5· · fair to say?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And at the end of that five-hour
·8· · interview, was it?
·9· · · · A.· ·Six or so.
10· · · · Q.· ·Six or so.· At the end of that interview,
11· · they let you go, right?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And they were not happy that you did not
14· · admit; is that right?
17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, I did.
18· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I think this would be
19· · a good time for lunch.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Let's take a lunch recess.
21· · · · · · ·We're going to recess until 1:30, ladies
22· · and gentlemen.
23· · · · · · ·While you're at recess, do not discuss
24· · this case among yourselves or with anyone else.· Do
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·1· · not permit this case to be discussed with you or in

·2· · your presence by anyone.· Do not form or express an
·3· · opinion concerning the case until it's finally
·4· · submitted to you for deliberation and verdict.· Do
·5· · not do any research at all concerning the case,
·6· · either as to the facts or as to the law from any
·7· · source at all.· Do not read, view, or listen to any
·8· · reports or accounts of the case from any source at
·9· · all, and have no contact with the participants in
10· · the case including parties, counsel, or witnesses.
12· · you wish to put on the record before we recess
13· · until 1:30?
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are in recess until 1:30.
17· · Assemble in the jury room at that time to be
18· · brought up by court personnel.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Now, that the jurors are
21· · gone --
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor --
23· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· They're right in the doorway,
24· · Your Honor.
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·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Now that the jurors are gone,

·2· · we have non-jury issues to be argued.
·3· · · · · · ·Do we want to do that now or do you want
·4· · to come back in about, oh, 45 minutes or so?
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Why don't we come back,
·6· · Your Honor, if that's okay.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· So counsel will be
·8· · back -- counsel and the defendant should be here at
·9· · a quarter till 1:00, and we will hear arguments
10· · concerning issues that do not concern the jury.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· We are on the record in State
15· · of Ohio vs. George Washington Wagner, IV.
16· · 2018-CR-155 is the case number.· The defendant is
17· · present with his attorneys, Mr. Parker and
18· · Mr. Nash.· The State is represented by Mr. Junk,
19· · Ms. Canepa and Mr. Wilson, and Mr. Scheiderer is
20· · also present.
21· · · · · · ·One issue that we need to take up without
22· · the jury's presence is -- I want to procedurally
23· · state this correctly.· So if I don't, somebody
24· · speak up.· But I believe the defense has asked the
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·1· · Court for -- I suppose the best expression of it

·2· · would be an in limine order that the defense is --
·3· · be permitted to cross-examine the witness, who is
·4· · just in the witness chair, and still there
·5· · actually -- he's not there now, but he will be back
·6· · to resume testimony -- Jake Wagner -- Jacob Wagner
·7· · concerning conversations that he had or statements
·8· · that he made to his attorneys.· So -- an in limine
·9· · consideration of that.· And Mr. Wagner's attorneys
10· · have filed a motion to -- and I will also say the
11· · defense counsel has subpoenaed -- let's see.
12· · Specifically subpoenaed Gregory Meyers, one of the
13· · attorneys for the defendant, to bring with him a
14· · copy of his file, or bring with him his file and
15· · interview notes of Edward Wagner concerning
16· · involvement of him and his codefendants in the
17· · homicides in case number 2018-CR-154.
18· · · · · · ·And Mr. Meyers has filed -- and the other
19· · attorneys involved here -- it also lists Kirk and
20· · McWay and Candra Roberts -- have filed a motion to
21· · quash that subpoena.
22· · · · · · ·Again, a request for an in limine order
23· · permitting questioning about that, about the -- and
24· · questioning about the file, and questioning about
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·1· · statements he may have made to his lawyers, and

·2· · then, on the State's side, the motion to quash --
·3· · or Mr. Wagner's side, a motion to quash those
·4· · subpoenas.· It's my understanding the State also
·5· · opposes the request of the defense counsel.
·6· · · · · · ·So I suppose, procedurally, Mr. Parker,
·7· · Mr. Nash, you wish to argue your position on this
·8· · that there's been a waiver of attorney-client
·9· · privilege, is that what you wish to do at this
10· · time?· Are prepared to do that?
11· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Thank you, Your Honor.
12· · · · · · ·As the Court's aware and has recited a
13· · subpoena was issued, and it was specifically for
14· · notes involving an interview in regard to -- well,
15· · let me refer to the testimony.· The testimony from
16· · Jake was that, following the plea of Rita Newcomb,
17· · he decided to tell his attorneys about his
18· · involvement, and he also specified the involvement
19· · of his mother, his father, and his brother.· And so
20· · we have asked for those notes pertaining to that.
21· · · · · · ·The premise behind it is -- and I
22· · understand the -- Jake's attorneys have an argument
23· · that that request is overbroad and that we're
24· · asking for other parts of the file.
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·1· · · · · · ·We'll limit it to just the notes in regard

·2· · to that notice or that communication that he gave
·3· · his attorneys.
·4· · · · · · ·First off, I think it's important to note
·5· · that Jake is here voluntarily whether a subpoena
·6· · was issued for him or not, but it's his own
·7· · voluntary -- he has volunteered to enter a plea.
·8· · He has volunteered to come in here and testify.
·9· · That's an agreement that he made with the State
10· · back on April 21st of last year.
11· · · · · · ·And so all we're asking for is those notes
12· · and -- so he waived -- you know, normally a client
13· · is going to have and enjoy a privilege regarding
14· · communications with his counsel unless the
15· · substance of those communications have been
16· · released or spoken about to a third party.· And
17· · that's exactly what Jake did here.· There was
18· · questioning designed to elicit what he had told his
19· · attorneys, and all we're trying to do is find out
20· · what it is that he has said.
21· · · · · · ·And so we would ask the Court to look at
22· · 2317.02, which is privileged communications, and
23· · subsection (A)(1) that provides for when there's a
24· · waiver of those communications.· And I'll read the
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·1· · pertinent part.

·2· · · · · · ·If the client voluntarily revealed the
·3· · substance of attorney-client communications in a
·4· · non-privileged context.
·5· · · · · · ·This is non-privileged context.
·6· · · · · · ·Where it's deemed by -- this is a
·7· · different section of the Ohio Revised Code -- to
·8· · have waived any testimony on privilege under this
·9· · provision, the attorney may be compelled to testify
10· · on the same subject.
11· · · · · · ·We're not asking for the attorney's
12· · testimony; we're just asking for his notes.
13· · · · · · ·So our request is for those notes. I
14· · understand that there is an argument against this,
15· · that this is privileged communications.· However,
16· · it doesn't meet the exception on 2317.02.
17· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· On behalf of the State of
18· · Ohio.
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, we oppose this,
20· · as we argued at the bench yesterday.· I asked a
21· · question as to whether or not that statement was
22· · consistent.· Mr. Parker objected, and Jake did not
23· · answer that.· So it wasn't even an affirmative yes,
24· · it's consistent.
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·1· · · · · · ·But, that said, if he said that after

·2· · Rita's plea he came forward and told his attorneys
·3· · about these various levels of involvement of the
·4· · other individuals, that doesn't say what he said.
·5· · It does not waive that privilege.
·6· · · · · · ·The fact that you had a conversation with
·7· · your attorney about custody -- we talked about
·8· · that -- or, you know, various different topics
·9· · doesn't waive that privilege.
10· · · · · · ·I mean, certainly I would hope -- I agreed
11· · with the motion to quash that was filed by the
12· · attorneys for Jake Wagner, that, you know, this is
13· · a very sacrosanct doctrine in the law that the
15· · · · · · ·So because of a question that I asked that
16· · never got answered, I certainly don't think that
17· · amounts to a waiver.· The Court did not inquire if
18· · he wanted to waive a privilege.· And Mr. Meyers
19· · also said that he had a conversation with Jake
20· · recently, and specifically asked if that was
21· · something that he wanted to do, and Jake answered
22· · that he did not.· So certainly I do not think that
23· · anything that happened on the stand where he is
24· · under State subpoena equates to a waiver of that
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·1· · privilege.
·2· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· This goes beyond the question
·3· · that was asked.· Specifically it's page 107 of the
·4· · transcript.
·5· · · · · · ·And did you tell them everything that
·6· · happened.
·7· · · · · · ·Answer:· Ultimately, yes.
·8· · · · · · ·Question:· Okay.· And specifically did you
·9· · tell them everything about your role and your
10· · involvement in the homicides?
11· · · · · · ·Yes.
12· · · · · · ·The people that you shot?
13· · · · · · ·Yes.
14· · · · · · ·And the homes that you entered?
15· · · · · · ·Yes.
16· · · · · · ·And it goes on to talk about the
17· · involvement --
18· · · · · · ·And the extent of your mother's
20· · · · · · ·Yes.
21· · · · · · ·And the extent of your brother's
23· · · · · · ·Yes.
24· · · · · · ·This is more than just asking a question.
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·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Yeah.· But he didn't say -- I

·2· · didn't say what did you tell them about your
·3· · mother's involvement?· What was her involvement?
·4· · What was George's involvement?· What was your
·5· · involvement?· Which home did you enter?· Who did
·6· · you shoot?
·7· · · · · · ·None of those questions were asked.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Mr. Meyers, you're here and
·9· · you filed a motion to quash the subpoena.· Do you
10· · wish to come up and argue that?
11· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· I do.
13· · · · · · ·Greg Meyers appearing on behalf of Greg
14· · Meyers.
15· · · · · · ·Seriously, Judge, we have filed a
16· · predicate outlined motion to quash.· The purpose of
17· · it, I think, square on the face teaches we dispute
18· · the issue.· There was no affirmative issue.
19· · · · · · ·As I had a chance to comment in chambers
20· · on this issue on the record, there was no surprise
21· · that having -- it's like, you know, pass the ball
22· · to George Wagner's lawyers.· Well, where's the
23· · waiver?· You can't -- there's no such thing in Ohio
24· · as a client that presumes a waiver.· There has to
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·1· · be a waiver.
·2· · · · · · ·So we knew it was coming.· We have
·3· · begun -- what I haven't done in the motion to quash
·4· · today was sort of bet against Jake Wagner's
·5· · interest by taking a preemptive argument against
·6· · being suggested, as Mr. Nash has just advanced,
·7· · that the four corners of Jake Wagner's testimony on
·8· · Wednesday operate to waive his privilege.
·9· · · · · · ·We think there's case law to the contrary.
10· · We contend that the word "voluntarily" in
11· · 2317.02(a)(1) is -- his testimony today is not
12· · voluntary, as that has been interpreted in other
13· · situations roughly similar.· We haven't found
14· · anything on all fours to this.
15· · · · · · ·So that it -- no matter what he said in
16· · his interaction with either State's counsel or
17· · defense counsel, none of that operates as a
18· · voluntary waiver for several reasons, not the least
19· · of which is to cast, as Mr. Nash has just said, his
20· · presence today as a voluntary witness for the State
21· · of Ohio portends two critical points that
22· · distinguish his case -- his situation, vis-à-vis
23· · the subpoena, from other potentially parallels.· He
24· · is not a party to this action.· So no question
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·1· · there is case law that says what a party to the

·2· · action, civil or criminal, that he -- if it were
·3· · Jake Wagner's trial and he said what he said, this
·4· · would be a different argument.· But he is a
·5· · witness.· He is not a direct party.· He is
·6· · testifying because when there became an opportunity
·7· · to negotiate his case, that included ultimately the
·8· · terms of that plea bargain -- the document itself,
·9· · as I understand, got marked as an exhibit already.
10· · There is a paragraph in there, a portion of which
11· · was not read during his direct exam or his cross
12· · yet, where that plea agreements vets the State of
13· · Ohio with the sole power and discretion to
14· · determine whether he is testifying truthfully.
15· · · · · · ·And if they reached the conclusion that he
16· · did not, he's back to square one.· He's facing full
17· · capital trial; death remains on the table for his
18· · brother and his dad and his mom.
19· · · · · · ·So as a witness being cross-examined -- or
20· · being direct examined by the prosecuting witness
21· · trying to convict his own brother, that is -- I
22· · don't know how else to say it, but just one more
23· · time, that's a night/day, apple/orange difference
24· · than the kind of voluntary testimony that has been
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·1· · deemed to have been waived.

·2· · · · · · ·In fact, there's a case out of from I
·3· · think 2020 out of the Eighth District Court of
·4· · Appeals, State V. Brunson, 2020, Ohio 5078, where a
·5· · multi defendant at a murder case -- it was a case
·6· · in pretrial litigation.· One of the codefendants
·7· · turned State's evidence and testified at a
·8· · suppression hearing against another codefendant; so
·9· · he's a State witness.
10· · · · · · ·During that testimony, among other things,
11· · he goes, yeah, I told my lawyers what I was going
12· · to tell the police.· Now, again, we're doing
13· · rocket-docket rapid fire here; right?· For whatever
14· · it's worth, I was on the road with two other
15· · clients yesterday and have not done the kind of
16· · deep research that may or may not eventually be
17· · needed here.
18· · · · · · ·But in Brunson, the witness who -- the
19· · codefendant who testified making the comment, I
20· · told my lawyers what I'm going to tell the police,
21· · so I think he must have proffered up with them, and
22· · I named the other people involved.· He says that
23· · under questioning at a suppression hearing,
24· · obviously not being questioned by his own lawyer
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·1· · but being questioned by State.· And that is not a

·2· · waiver.· That battle erupted akin to the one we're
·3· · in now.· And the Eighth District said no, that did
·4· · not operate as a waiver.
·5· · · · · · ·By contrast, there's an old case from '71
·6· · out of the seventh district, State v. Chrisman,
·7· · where it was found to be a waiver by a defendant
·8· · testifying in his own behalf.
·9· · · · · · ·There is another case that had to be
10· · civil.· I can get these formal cites later.· I ran
11· · into a computer problem earlier.· I apologize.
12· · · · · · ·Tandon, T-A-N-D-O-N, v. Tandon, Civil, 99
13· · Jefferson County district appeal, where testimony
14· · on cross was not deemed voluntary for purposes of
15· · waiver.
16· · · · · · ·So, again, on the one hand, there's sort
17· · of a textbook finality to the simple point that
18· · Ms. Canepa had to take Jake Wagner on direct exam
19· · as a State witness, but under the circumstances
20· · that control and characterize his testimony in this
21· · case, we contend it is not voluntary, as that word
22· · is meant to apply in 2317.02(a)(1).
23· · · · · · ·Final point.· I alluded to this in the
24· · chamber chat on record.· Myself, along with the
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·1· · team of lawyers who have been representing Jake

·2· · Wagner over the -- well, since November of 2018 --
·3· · when this case came close to the date and time when
·4· · he would have to testify against his brother
·5· · George, there, of course, had to be some additional
·6· · interaction with Jake just to -- you know, this is
·7· · not an everyday event.· There's a lot of emotions
·8· · and a lot of pressure.
·9· · · · · · ·I had anticipated that this could come up.
10· · Somehow or other it could come to pass that
11· · somebody's going to make an argument about what I
12· · call short-handed implied waiver.
13· · · · · · ·My cocounsel, Ms. Roberts, keeps reminding
14· · me there's no implied waiver in Ohio.· It's either
15· · on or off.· It's either waived or it ain't waived
16· · by operation of testimony.
17· · · · · · ·So I took the liberty of interacting with
18· · Mr. Wagner, and I said, you know, very open-ended,
19· · I didn't want to interfere with his plea bargain in
20· · any way, shape or form.· I taught him, if I could
21· · put it that way, what attorney-client privilege in
22· · this type of context would mean.· I explained to
23· · him how it might come up, and I said do you want to
24· · waive?· What's it like for you sitting there
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·1· · thinking about whether Mr. Mooney or I may wind up

·2· · on the stand?· He goes, I don't want that.· I do
·3· · not want to waive.
·4· · · · · · ·So I can guarantee you for this precise
·5· · issue he doesn't want to waive.· And in some ways
·6· · I'm glad I had the foresight to ask him that before
·7· · this trial started because I haven't talked to Jake
·8· · Wagner since early Monday morning.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Thank you.
10· · · · · · ·Any further argument from the defense?
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, if I could just add.
12· · You know, the factual predicate for our request
13· · came during his direct testimony, as Mr. Nash
14· · recited, and it's more than just identifying
15· · George.· He claims he told in detail his lawyers
16· · about the different activities of the codefendants.
17· · So we're entitled to see if there are inconsistent
18· · statements in what he told his lawyers and what
19· · he's told the State on numerous occasions evidently
20· · and what he said in the courtroom.
21· · · · · · ·So the purpose is to see if there's any
22· · inconsistent statements from what he's told his
23· · lawyers to what he's told the prosecutors and to
24· · what he said in court.
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·1· · · · · · ·So we think we're entitled to search the

·2· · notes to see if there are any inconsistent
·3· · statements.· If there are, we'll make a decision
·4· · once we see what it is, if it's material or not.
·5· · But certainly he's opened the door by talking about
·6· · the contents of his -- that he told the truth, I
·7· · think was his phrase or the question -- his answer
·8· · to the question, that he told the lawyers the truth
·9· · about George and the other defendants.
10· · · · · · ·And that's what really triggered this.
11· · And so we need those notes.· If the Court doesn't
12· · think we're entitled to them, then we are asking
13· · the Court to do an inspection to see if there are
14· · any inconsistencies.· And if the Court refuses to
15· · do -- either give them to us or to do that
16· · inspection, then we have to ask that they be placed
17· · under seal for appellate reasons, should that
18· · become necessary.
20· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The Court's -- I'm going to
21· · find and determine that there has been no waiver or
22· · relinquishment of the attorney-client privilege.
23· · · · · · ·In fact, to imply a waiver under the
24· · circumstances of this particular case and this
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·1· · particular witness, I think would undermine the

·2· · purposes for which the attorney-client privilege
·3· · exists, and I -- I don't know how we would ever
·4· · have a situation where we could have a codefendant
·5· · testifying if by subjecting themselves to
·6· · cross-examination that would be considered to be a
·7· · waiver.
·8· · · · · · ·And I didn't hear any factual statements
·9· · by this defendant other than he discussed the
10· · involvement of other people with his attorney.· But
11· · what he said, I didn't hear anything that
12· · specifically referenced what he said.
13· · · · · · ·So I'm going to find there's been no
14· · waiver, and I will also -- so I will deny the
15· · request or in limine order that there has been a
16· · waiver and the defendant be permitted to be
17· · cross-examined concerning what he told his
18· · attorneys, to the extent that that's what the
19· · defense is asking.· And I will also grant the -- on
20· · behalf of the attorneys for Edward Jacob Wagner,
21· · grant the motion to quash.
22· · · · · · ·So at this point are we ready to proceed
23· · with the jury?
24· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Yes, Judge.· Thank you.
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·1· · · · · · ·Will we be making those notes as part of

·2· · the record to be placed under seal for appellate --
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm granting the motion to
·4· · quash, so that would mean that they're not required
·5· · to bring them.
·6· · · · · · ·Now, if both sides are ready for the jury.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes, Judge.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Bring the jury in.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is the defense ready to resume
12· · cross-examination of the witness?
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Is the State ready?
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· The defense may
17· · resume questioning.
20· · · · Q.· ·Jake, I want to go over a couple more
21· · exhibits with you, if I could.
22· · · · · · ·Before I do that -- Andrew Carson.
23· · · · A.· ·What was your question about him?
24· · · · Q.· ·Andrew Carson.· You know him, do you not?
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·1· · · · A.· ·I do.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Who is Andrew Carson?
·3· · · · A.· ·He's a friend of mine.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And he called you shortly after the bodies
·5· · were discovered; is that right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·He called you on your cell phone?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you were driving in your
10· · truck, coming from Lucasville back to
11· · Peterson Road, if I understand; is that right?
12· · · · A.· ·When he called?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
14· · · · A.· ·No.· No.· This was after -- this was after
15· · I was already home.
16· · · · Q.· ·So you made it home?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·You were out -- you and George were out to
19· · tear down a building, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Forgot a chainsaw?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·So you had to come back and get that
24· · chainsaw?
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·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You had already arrived when he called
·3· · you?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And he told you what?
·6· · · · A.· ·He had told me that -- actually, I
·7· · remember -- I think he did use the word that
·8· · they're all dead, or something similar to that.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And what was your reaction to that?
10· · · · A.· ·I mean, of course, I already knew that
11· · happened.· I basically acted shocked.· I think -- I
12· · think the first thing I done was silence, like
13· · processing what he had said or something like that.
14· · · · Q.· ·But you acted surprised?
15· · · · A.· ·I did.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In effect, you lied to him?
17· · · · A.· ·I did.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you have lied to the
19· · Cinereskis, the preacher up in Alaska about this,
20· · have you not?
21· · · · A.· ·I did.
22· · · · Q.· ·You lied to the Rhodens, have you not?
23· · · · A.· ·I did.
24· · · · Q.· ·You lied to the Manleys?
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·1· · · · A.· ·I did.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You've lied to the Gilleys?
·3· · · · A.· ·I did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You've lied to BCI?
·5· · · · A.· ·I did.
·6· · · · Q.· ·You lied to Beth, your wife?
·7· · · · A.· ·I did.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You lied to your lawyers?
·9· · · · A.· ·I did.
10· · · · Q.· ·You lied to everybody until you got a deal
11· · here, didn't you?
12· · · · A.· ·What was the last question?
13· · · · Q.· ·You lied to everybody until you got your
14· · plea bargain; isn't that true?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And the lies continue, don't they?
17· · · · A.· ·Normally.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you, sir, are a cold-blooded killer,
19· · are you not?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And a liar?
22· · · · A.· ·I was.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.
24· · · · · · ·I want to show you a couple of exhibits,
YVer1f
·1· · if I could.
·2· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Wagner 33 and 34.
·3· · · · · · ·(Wagner Exhibit 33 and 34 were thereupon
·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you know what these are, sir?
·7· · · · · · ·Take a moment.
·8· · · · A.· ·That is the GoFundMe account thing.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And was that your idea?
10· · · · A.· ·No.
11· · · · Q.· ·That was your mother's idea?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·You went along with it?
14· · · · A.· ·I did.
15· · · · Q.· ·And you got some money out of it?
16· · · · A.· ·I did.
17· · · · Q.· ·Did you write what's in that account?
18· · · · · · ·The story that's on the Wagner Exhibit 34,
19· · this one here, did you write that?
20· · · · A.· ·I edited it.
21· · · · Q.· ·You did edit it.
22· · · · · · ·Can you read it to us, please?· Take your
23· · time.
24· · · · A.· ·This is our story.· My daughter Sophia
YVer1f
·1· · Wagner, she is also the daughter of Hanna Rhoden.

·2· · Unfortunately Hanna Rhoden was one of the victims
·3· · of the Rhoden family in Pike County, Ohio, where
·4· · eight members of the same family were murdered.
·5· · · · · · ·Before the death of Sophia's mom, I only
·6· · had my daughter's -- sorry.· I only had my daughter
·7· · half of the time.· I wish I could have had her
·8· · more, but Hanna and I were separated.
·9· · · · · · ·Now I need help financially with all of
10· · the attorney fees and expenses and extras to help
11· · her cope with the loss of her mommy and to acquire
12· · full custody of her.· She is only two-and-a-half
13· · years old.· These were not expenses I was supposed
14· · to have.· I have -- I'm sorry.· I was just supposed
15· · to be able to spend time with her and give her a
16· · happy childhood, now I have to work extra hours and
17· · do not get to see her much.· She is asleep when I
18· · leave for work and usually asleep when I get home.
19· · Weekends are all we have basically.
20· · · · · · ·Sophia and I are just asking enough to
21· · settle fees that we acquired due to horrific
22· · tragedy of her mommy.· We want to get our lives
23· · back and I hate seeing my daughter cry.
24· · · · Q.· ·Now, you looked at many photos on
YVer1f
·1· · Facebook, right?

·2· · · · · · ·You like to use Facebook?
·3· · · · A.· ·For certain reasons, yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did you ever see any images,
·5· · any photographs, of Hanna and Corey on Facebook?
·6· · · · A.· ·I have.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And do you think you might remember some
·8· · of those images?
·9· · · · A.· ·You mean describe them without showing me
10· · or recognize them?
11· · · · Q.· ·Recognize them.
12· · · · A.· ·I could probably recognize them, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·I'm showing you Wagner Exhibit 30.
14· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Which was from discovery.
15· · · · · · ·(Wagner Exhibit 30 was thereupon marked
18· · · · Q.· ·This is marked Wagner Exhibit 30.
19· · · · · · ·Do you recognize that one?
20· · · · · · ·Do you know who's in that photograph?
21· · · · A.· ·I do.
22· · · · Q.· ·Who's in that photograph?
23· · · · A.· ·Hanna and Corey.
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What are they doing?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·It looks like sleeping beside each other.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Had you seen that before?
·3· · · · A.· ·I have.
·4· · · · Q.· ·I'll show you Wagner Exhibit 31.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Who's that, please?
·9· · · · A.· ·That is Hanna and Corey.
10· · · · Q.· ·What are they doing?
11· · · · A.· ·Kissing.
12· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen that image before?
13· · · · A.· ·I have.
14· · · · Q.· ·I show you Wagner Exhibit 32.
15· · · · · · ·This will be the final one.
16· · · · · · ·(Wagner Exhibit 32 was thereupon marked
19· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen this image before?
20· · · · A.· ·I have not seen that one, no.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What did you think when you saw
22· · those images?
23· · · · A.· ·Just now or --
24· · · · Q.· ·No.· When you first saw them.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I mean, they brought memories back.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Were you jealous of Hanna and Corey?
·3· · · · A.· ·I mean, to an extent, yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Changing topics a little bit here.
·5· · · · · · ·I do want to show you a couple more
·6· · photographs.· I'm sure you would recognize the
·7· · person in Wagner Exhibit 33 and 34.
·8· · · · · · ·(Wagner Exhibits 33 and 34 were thereupon
11· · · · Q.· ·Who's in 33?
12· · · · A.· ·Excuse me?
13· · · · Q.· ·Who is in -- do you know who that is?
14· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· That's my father.
15· · · · Q.· ·Likewise, 34?· Is that --
16· · · · A.· ·Also my father.
17· · · · Q.· ·All right.
18· · · · · · ·Are you familiar with swap days or trade
19· · days it's sometimes called?
20· · · · A.· ·I am.
21· · · · Q.· ·What is that?
22· · · · A.· ·It is a flea market.
23· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?
24· · · · A.· ·A flea market.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know where it's held?

·2· · · · A.· ·It used to be held generally in Lucasville
·3· · fairgrounds, and later it moved to the Chillicothe
·4· · fairgrounds.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You've been there many times,
·6· · haven't you?
·7· · · · A.· ·I have.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Do you know how it works?
·9· · · · A.· ·I do.
10· · · · Q.· ·How does it work, generally speaking?
11· · · · A.· ·Generally speaking?
12· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Generally speaking.
13· · · · A.· ·You buy a spot to set up previous -- prior
14· · to the event.· You take a lot number; you go to
15· · your assigned location; set up whatever you need, a
16· · fence, a table, whatever and lay your items that
17· · you're selling out on your table with the prices or
18· · so; and sit and advertise and sell your property.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· It's a very popular event,
20· · right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes, it is.
22· · · · Q.· ·You've been there many times?
23· · · · A.· ·I've been there -- well, it used to be
24· · held three times a year in Lucasville.· I think
YVer1f
·1· · only twice in Chillicothe a year.· And up until

·2· · about -- well, until I was probably 21 or so, I had
·3· · gone each time it was open.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And did your mom and dad have
·5· · a booth there or something at one point?
·6· · · · A.· ·They -- to my understanding, they did have
·7· · a booth there at one point, yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But among the items that
·9· · people sell, they also trade items; is that right?
10· · · · A.· ·Buy, sell, trade.
11· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Whatever.
12· · · · A.· ·Barter.
13· · · · Q.· ·Barter.· And some of the items that are
14· · popular there, as I understand it, please tell me
15· · if you know or don't, are guns?
16· · · · A.· ·Very.
17· · · · Q.· ·They're very popular, aren't they?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Fair to say there's thousands of guns at
20· · the swap days or trade days?
21· · · · A.· ·That's a good number, yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And people will just walk around and if
23· · they see a gun they like, they could buy it, right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.· People can either advertise it on
YVer1f
·1· · the lot on the table, some take a buggy with them
·2· · and advertise signs hanging off it as they're
·3· · walking.· Others actually wear the guns, like, in
·4· · holsters or shoulder straps.· Same situation, so,
·5· · yeah, you would be walking up to somebody walking
·6· · in line, or even in line of a concession stand,
·7· · hey, is that for sale?· You could buy it right then
·8· · and there.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Right.· You would swap them out?· You
10· · could pay cash?· Whatever you can work out?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And that happens all the time, right?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Now, did you ever sell a chicken at one of
15· · these swap days?
16· · · · A.· ·I did.
17· · · · Q.· ·Was there a well-known story in your
18· · family about that chicken?
19· · · · A.· ·There is.
20· · · · Q.· ·Why don't you share it.
21· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Your Honor, I'm going object
22· · to the relevance of this.
23· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's absolutely relevant,
24· · Judge.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Can we approach?

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, I want him to tell the
·7· · story because it shows what a con artist he is.
·8· · The story basically he is sold a pregnant chicken
·9· · to that somebody.· Yeah, chickens don't -- but it's
10· · an example of how deceitful.
11· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Wide latitude of
12· · cross-examination.
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I want him to tell the story,
14· · and I'll move on.
19· · objection and allow the question.
21· · · · Q.· ·Jake, why don't you briefly tell us the
22· · story.
23· · · · A.· ·I bragged about selling a person,
24· · physically a lady, a chicken that was pregnant.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And obviously chickens aren't pregnant,

·2· · right?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.· Chickens are not pregnant.· They lay
·4· · eggs.· Now, granted I'm not sure if that story is
·5· · actually true.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, you represented to a woman --
·7· · · · A.· ·My point I'm -- I've told that story so
·8· · much, I'm not sure if it actually happened. I
·9· · think it did.
10· · · · Q.· ·Do you have memory problems, Jake?
11· · · · A.· ·I mean, yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·What memory problems do you have?
13· · · · A.· ·I mean, I have trouble remembering things.
14· · · · Q.· ·How long have you had this problem?
15· · · · A.· ·A long time.
16· · · · Q.· ·Do you get confused sometimes?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Memories aren't always accurate; is that
19· · fair to say?
20· · · · A.· ·I mean, I would say my memory is kind of
21· · like a jigsaw puzzle with extra pieces sometimes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What do you mean by that?
23· · · · A.· ·Huh?
24· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Sometimes I remember things that didn't

·2· · happen that way or didn't happen, per se.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Let me ask you this.· I think
·4· · you've testified previously, but I just want to
·5· · make sure I understand.
·6· · · · · · ·Your dad and Chris Senior were very close,
·7· · right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Right.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And they met through Vance Walls; is that
10· · right?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And with respect to Tabby, that's your
13· · brother's ex-wife?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·You knew her very well, right?
16· · · · A.· ·I did.
17· · · · Q.· ·And you knew she had mental health issues?
18· · · · A.· ·I did.
19· · · · Q.· ·I think they were called bipolar by the
20· · family; is that right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if her behavior was
23· · sometimes affected by that?
24· · · · A.· ·When you say affected, you mean, like,
YVer1f
·1· · her -- because of the bipolarism how she behaved?

·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And can you give us an example?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection, Your Honor.
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, I object. I
·7· · don't think it matters.
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'll withdraw that, Judge.
·9· · I'll withdraw it.
11· · · · Q.· ·When's the last time you saw your
12· · daughter, Jake?
13· · · · A.· ·The day I was arrested.
14· · · · Q.· ·The day you were arrested.
15· · · · · · ·You mentioned in your direct examination
16· · that you wanted more things during your plea
17· · bargaining with the State that you did not receive;
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·What things did you want that you did not
21· · receive?
22· · · · A.· ·Are you asking me what I had asked for
23· · generally and -- like, offers?· Like plea offer
24· · stuff or --
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Well, you wanted the death penalty removed

·2· · from your case, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I mean, what I'm asking -- so is
·4· · your question everything I've asked for or just
·5· · what -- what --
·6· · · · Q.· ·Let me --
·7· · · · A.· ·I'm confused.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· I'll try to rephrase it.
·9· · · · · · ·You asked for the death penalty to be
10· · removed from your case?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And the State gave that to
13· · you?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And then you asked for the death penalty
16· · be removed from George's case, your mom's case, and
17· · your dad's case as well?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And they gave that to you?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And that's if they're satisfied with how
22· · you perform in court; is that right?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·So you have to satisfy them to get what
YVer1f
·1· · you want?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·But there were other things you wanted
·4· · that they did not give you?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·What were those things?
·7· · · · A.· ·Well, as Canepa said yesterday, talking
·8· · about the family reunion thing, I did ask for that
·9· · to include my daughter and nephew.· They said that
10· · was not on -- in their afford.· And I understood
11· · that.
12· · · · · · ·Prior to that, I had asked that -- well,
13· · I'd asked for my brother and mother's charges to be
14· · dropped, but apparently that wasn't optionable.
15· · · · · · ·I also asked for a parole date, and that
16· · was also denied.
17· · · · · · ·So I asked for a lot.
18· · · · Q.· ·But they agreed to spare your life, in
19· · spite of all of the things that you did?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Now, do you remember during the proffer
22· · back in April of last year that you told BCI when
23· · you were driving Chris's truck around on the night
24· · of the murders that you struck a deer?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I did.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Did that deer cause any damage to the
·3· · truck?
·4· · · · A.· ·I don't know.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Where were you when you struck a deer?
·6· · · · A.· ·On 772.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Was it a large deer?
·8· · · · A.· ·I think it -- I think it may have been a
·9· · doe, but, I mean, at least -- at least 200 pounds,
10· · I'd say.
11· · · · Q.· ·When you were doing that proffer back in
12· · April of last year, that took place over two days;
13· · correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Your lawyers were with you and
16· · that was recorded; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And your lawyers were there for your
19· · benefit, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And before you went into that proffer,
22· · they had discussed, I'm sure, in great detail the
23· · evidence the State had accumulated against you;
24· · isn't that true?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·So you knew what you were facing if you
·3· · decided to go to trial?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And that figured into your decision to
·6· · cooperate, fair to say?
·7· · · · A.· ·It was part of the reason, yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· I mean, you didn't want to
·9· · die -- right? -- Jake?
10· · · · A.· ·No.
11· · · · Q.· ·Do you think prison is punishment?
12· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.· Objection.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The basis is?
14· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· The relevance of whether or
15· · not he thinks prison is punishment.
17· · and let him answer.
18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What was your question
19· · again?
21· · · · Q.· ·Do you think going to prison for the rest
22· · of your life is punishment?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·And what do you expect when you get to
YVer1f
·1· · prison?
·2· · · · A.· ·What -- what do you mean by that?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Well, you've never been to prison before;
·4· · correct?
·5· · · · A.· ·Correct.
·6· · · · Q.· ·All right.
·7· · · · · · ·So do you know what it's going to be like
·8· · in prison for you?
·9· · · · A.· ·I mean, I've asked questions from COs,
10· · other inmates.· I mean, I've got an idea of it,
11· · yeah.
12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What do you think is awaiting
13· · you?
14· · · · A.· ·What?
15· · · · Q.· ·What do you think is waiting for you once
16· · you get to prison?
17· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Your Honor, I'm going to
18· · object.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.· I'm going to sustain
22· · · · Q.· ·Do you think you're going to have an easy
23· · life in prison, Jake?
24· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I object.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Sustained.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you think there's going to be a workout
·4· · room for you?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I object.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You've talked about this on the telephone,
·9· · haven't you?
10· · · · A.· ·I have.
11· · · · Q.· ·You know those phone calls are recorded,
12· · right?
13· · · · A.· ·I do.
14· · · · Q.· ·And haven't you said on some of those
15· · phone calls --
16· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.· It's hearsay.
17· · We've talked about this multiple times.
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.· I'm going to sustain
21· · · · Q.· ·Let's move on to a different subject,
22· · Jake.
23· · · · · · ·The night of the murders, you returned to
24· · Peterson Road; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And I believe it's true, isn't it, that
·3· · you burned all of the clothing that was used in the
·4· · murders, either that night or at some later date;
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·So all of it was burned?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Including the masks?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Now, at one point in time, you purchased a
12· · security camera system for the house at
13· · Peterson Road, right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And you installed that, right?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And eventually you took it down, right?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And that had nothing to do with these
20· · murders; isn't that true?
21· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
22· · · · Q.· ·And there was one of the interviews BCI
23· · made with you at Peterson Road before you went to
24· · Montana -- okay?· Before you went to Montana --
YVer1f
·1· · where your brother sent a text to your father.

·2· · · · · · ·Are you aware of that?
·3· · · · A.· ·If we're thinking of the same thing, yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What was that about?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.· He doesn't have
·6· · personal knowledge of the text.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen the text?
10· · · · A.· ·I have.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Do you know it went from your
12· · brother to your dad?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Do you know why he sent that?
15· · · · A.· ·I do.
16· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Objection, Your Honor.
18· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Ask to approach.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Sustained.· I'm going to
22· · · · Q.· ·Well, you talked about that in your
23· · proffer, didn't you?
24· · · · A.· ·I did.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You told them it had nothing to do --

·2· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.· Objection.
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Objection, Your Honor.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware that when you lived over on
·7· · Bethel Hill that your mom and dad did pill runs to
·8· · Florida?
·9· · · · · · ·Are you aware of that?
10· · · · A.· ·I am.
11· · · · Q.· ·How old were you about that time?
12· · · · A.· ·I was under 16.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You stayed home on Bethel
14· · Hill?
15· · · · A.· ·Sometimes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Did you go with them sometimes?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And they made these pill runs
19· · to Florida on whose behalf, if you know?
20· · · · A.· ·I think there was a third party.· I'm not
21· · sure if it was him or not.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So these pill runs, to be clear,
23· · they went to Florida, your mom and your dad --
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·-- to buy -- do you know what kind of

·2· · pills they were?
·3· · · · A.· ·I think it was Percocet.· I'm not
·4· · 100 percent sure on that.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And they went there to buy them and bring
·6· · them back, kind of trafficking in Percocets; is
·7· · that right?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And when your mom was monitoring Tabby's
10· · Facebook, that had nothing to do with these
11· · murders, did it?
12· · · · A.· ·No.
13· · · · Q.· ·When you told various people that you
14· · thought you were Kylee's father, that was a lie,
15· · wasn't it?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And the oil filters that you used as
18· · silencers on the .22 and the SKS, those were oil
19· · filters, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And those were from items that
22· · your dad had accumulated or stolen over the years,
23· · right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·That's where you got those oil filters?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And the truck which has been identified
·4· · earlier, I think it's NNN-1 -- you remember that,
·5· · right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·That truck was purchased from your great
·8· · uncle to be a work truck at Peterson, right?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Well, that's what you told them when you
11· · talked to them during your proffer, isn't it?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·So that was a lie?
14· · · · A.· ·Not necessarily, no.
15· · · · Q.· ·Well, was it a work truck?· Was it about
16· · to be a work truck, or no?
17· · · · A.· ·No.
18· · · · Q.· ·But you admit that you told the State
19· · during your proffer that it was purchased to be a
20· · work truck?
21· · · · A.· ·Well, I mean, at the time, that's what I
22· · had thought, yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·I want to make sure I understand your
24· · testimony, and there's some parts of it I don't
YVer1f
·1· · understand.
·2· · · · · · ·When you fired that SKS rifle at Chris and
·3· · hit him, were you under this truck, NNN-1 --
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·-- when you fired?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You were at a truck next to it?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Were you underneath that truck?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·What did you do with the SKS after you
12· · fired it?
13· · · · A.· ·Umm --
14· · · · Q.· ·Did you put it in this truck, NNN-1, once
15· · you were done with it?
16· · · · A.· ·Umm.· Umm.· I don't think so, no.
17· · · · Q.· ·You don't think so.
18· · · · · · ·Was it empty?· Did you empty the gun of
19· · the bullets when you fired it?
20· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.
21· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember telling -- do you remember
22· · telling in your proffer that you emptied the gun
23· · and placed it in that truck?
24· · · · A.· ·I do.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Objection, Your Honor.

·2· · That's not what he said.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you --
·6· · the objection.· I think we've had question and
·7· · answer, so I -- redirect on this.
·9· · · · Q.· ·I think you said the other day that your
10· · Colt 1911 held 12 bullets in the magazine and then
11· · you could have 1 in the chamber for a total of 13;
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Do you know how many .22 shots you fired
15· · the night of the murders into the various victims?
16· · · · A.· ·I don't know the total, no.
17· · · · Q.· ·It was more than 13, would you agree with
18· · that?
19· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.· No, I don't know.
20· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember reloading it?
21· · · · A.· ·I do.
22· · · · Q.· ·Where did you reload it?
23· · · · A.· ·I reloaded it after I left Frankie's.
24· · · · Q.· ·Now, you're a gun person, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You like guns?
·3· · · · A.· ·I do.
·4· · · · Q.· ·What's the difference between an SKS and
·5· · an AK?
·6· · · · A.· ·Well --
·7· · · · Q.· ·They're two different guns, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·They are both two different guns, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Both high-powered rifles, right?
10· · · · A.· ·They're both Eastern assault rifles, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And the magazine from one will not fit
12· · into the other one, would you agree with that?
14· · · · Q.· ·During your relationship with Beth, you
15· · thought she was working for BCI; is that right?
16· · · · A.· ·I did.· Well, I assumed.· Suspicion.
17· · · · Q.· ·The custody papers that have been
18· · identified here, that was your idea; is that right?
19· · · · A.· ·It was.
20· · · · Q.· ·Did you expect a shootout this night?
21· · · · A.· ·No.
22· · · · Q.· ·That was in case you got arrested?
23· · · · A.· ·Well, actually, it was in case they -- the
24· · State or whatever wouldn't -- how do I say that?
YVer1f
·1· · In case children services wouldn't give me custody.

·2· · · · Q.· ·This all really started because you didn't
·3· · want Sophia to be molested, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·That's true.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You testified earlier about taking the
·6· · clothes and putting them in a -- taking some items
·7· · from the murder and putting them in a duffle bag;
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·That was the gun and the different things
11· · found in the barrels?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you buried that in the so-called new
14· · barn, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And you're the one that dug the hole,
17· · right?
18· · · · A.· ·What's that?
19· · · · Q.· ·You're the one that dug the hole.
20· · · · A.· ·I mean, George participated, yes.· He
21· · helped me dig the hole.
22· · · · Q.· ·You didn't tell BC- -- you didn't tell the
23· · State that during your proffer, did you?
24· · · · A.· ·I think I did.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You think you told them?

·2· · · · A.· ·I think so.
·3· · · · Q.· ·About George?
·4· · · · · · ·Could you be mistaken on that?
·5· · · · A.· ·Maybe.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Didn't you tell the State during the
·7· · proffer that when you came home, George went
·8· · directly to tend to the animals?
·9· · · · A.· ·I don't know if I worded it like that.
10· · This happened after I was burying the -- after the
11· · hole was dug and I was burying the duffle bag.
12· · · · Q.· ·Well, you helped build that barn, right?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And that's a pretty strong barn, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·It's made of oak; is that right.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· A very strong type of wood,
19· · right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And the outer posts around the outside of
22· · the barn, are they in concrete?
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· They're down pretty deep,
YVer1f
·1· · right?
·2· · · · A.· ·I think they're about two feet, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And the posts inside the barn
·4· · they're not support beams, right?· They don't hold
·5· · the weight of the barn?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· It's the outer posts that hold
·8· · the trusses and the weight of the barn?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·So those inside posts are there for what
11· · purpose?
12· · · · A.· ·Those are the initial -- I don't know what
13· · the word I'm looking for.· They're to make the
14· · stalls.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· To make the stalls?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·So you have those exterior posts, and then
18· · you design the stalls around those?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And is it a support beam on
21· · the outside or one of those interior posts that you
22· · claim you put the duffle bag underneath -- that you
23· · had to move to place the duffle bag into the
24· · ground?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·So you're asking did I move one of the

·2· · posts to dig the hole?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Let me ask the -- let me start
·4· · there.· It wasn't a very good question.· Let me try
·5· · to make it simpler.
·6· · · · · · ·As I understand it, you dug a hole in the
·7· · barn to put that duffle bag in?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Where did you place it?
10· · · · A.· ·Where did I put it?
11· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
12· · · · A.· ·The hole?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
14· · · · A.· ·Right where the -- from the big open
15· · section of the barn where you can drive a tractor
16· · in.
17· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
18· · · · A.· ·The first post on the left side for the
19· · first stall.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did you remove that post?
22· · · · Q.· ·By yourself?
23· · · · A.· ·I mean, it's not hard to do.
24· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Was the stall up at that
YVer1f
·1· · point?
·2· · · · A.· ·No.
·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· How deep was that post?
·4· · · · A.· ·Maybe 16 inches or so.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· That's pretty deep, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And that's where you put the bag?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·The duffle bag?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And then did you put the post back up?
12· · · · A.· ·I did.
13· · · · Q.· ·And how long did that duffle bag stay
14· · there?
15· · · · A.· ·I think I pulled it up about the same time
16· · when I was going to build the duck house, so I
17· · think that was Father's Day.· So what is that?
18· · June.
19· · · · Q.· ·You tell me.
20· · · · A.· ·Father's Day is in June, right?
21· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· As far as I know it's in June.
22· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I believe it's in June.
23· · · · Q.· ·So you called it a duck box.· It's been
24· · called a goose box.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· I did --

·2· · · · Q.· ·It's the same thing, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·I misspoke.· It's a goose house, yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And that was for your grandfather Wagner?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And that was your dad's idea?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And he gave you the design to build?
·9· · · · A.· ·Well, not the design; just basically told
10· · me to build it.
11· · · · Q.· ·He just told you to build it.· It was up
12· · to you to come up with the design?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And wasn't that for your grandfather's
15· · birthday?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And your grandfather's birthday is, like,
18· · January, February, something like that?
19· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure exactly.
20· · · · Q.· ·All right.· But you built the goose box,
21· · right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And didn't you put that in the lake out at
24· · the Flying W?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I did.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And originally it had, like,
·3· · these heavy metal anchors when you put it in the
·4· · lake; isn't that true?
·5· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· What was that?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Didn't the goose box originally have heavy
·7· · metal anchors of some sort instead of these buckets
·8· · of concrete when you first put it in for your
·9· · grandfather's birthday?
11· · · · Q.· ·You don't think so?
12· · · · A.· ·Huh-uh.· No, I don't think so, no.
13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· When did you take these
14· · concrete buckets out and put them on the goose box?
15· · · · A.· ·I think it was the same day when I put it
16· · in the lake.
17· · · · Q.· ·Could you be mistaken on that?
18· · · · A.· ·Umm.· I don't think so, no.
19· · · · Q.· ·You don't think so?
20· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · Q.· ·Are you sure?
22· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Objection, Your Honor.· He's
23· · asked and answered this now several times.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.· I'm going to overrule
YVer1f
·1· · that last question.· I'll sustain the objection to

·2· · the last question.· I'm sorry.
·4· · · · Q.· ·The contents of those buckets, you put
·5· · that in there; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And your dad?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He was there.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And let me talk for a moment about when
10· · there was the Wagner trucking company, right?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·What was that?
13· · · · A.· ·That was our truck driving business
14· · hauling cattle.
15· · · · Q.· ·Right.· That was a family operation,
16· · right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And, as I understand it, your dad and you
19· · at times would go off and do that business, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·At other times your dad and George would
22· · go off and do that business?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And do you know how long that operation
YVer1f
·1· · was in effect?

·2· · · · · · ·How long did that -- what time frame are
·3· · we talking about?
·4· · · · A.· ·I believe we started it in 2013 and
·5· · stopped in 2016.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you know when in 2016?· Before or after
·7· · the murders?
·8· · · · A.· ·It was before.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you know how much before the murders?
10· · I mean, the murders were in April of 2016.
11· · · · A.· ·I think it would be maybe January.
12· · February maybe.
13· · · · Q.· ·Was it fair to say that you did a lot of
14· · the planning for these murders while George was out
15· · in the truck with your dad doing the cattle
16· · business?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And that cattle business -- you guys were
19· · doing pretty good in that business, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·You had quite a few contracts; you were
22· · staying busy?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And you hauled cattle and other animals
YVer1f
·1· · too, or was it just cattle?

·2· · · · A.· ·We hauled hogs a few times, but mostly it
·3· · was cattle.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Mostly cattle, some hogs.· But you hauled
·5· · them all over the United States, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You would pick them up and take them to a
·8· · butcher; is that fair?
·9· · · · A.· ·Actually -- well, I mean, sort of.· We
10· · hauled to Wyalusing, Pennsylvania, to Cargill's
11· · kill plant.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
13· · · · A.· ·And we hauled to feed lots out in Kansas,
14· · Colorado, Texas, and other locations out west, but
15· · not to an actual butcher, no.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm glad you straightened that out.
17· · · · · · ·Now, during that time when your dad and
18· · you and George had this business, that's who had
19· · it, right?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Your dad was always on one of these trips?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Well, there was two times not.· I'm
23· · sorry.· There was -- yeah, two times that he was
24· · not.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Two times.· But almost all of the times he

·2· · was one of the persons in the truck?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And he would be either with you or with
·5· · your brother?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And whoever wasn't there out of the three
·8· · stayed home?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So that was a good business,
11· · right?
12· · · · A.· ·It was.
13· · · · Q.· ·You guys were making money?
14· · · · A.· ·We was.
15· · · · Q.· ·And that's a job you and your brother
16· · enjoyed; is that right?
17· · · · A.· ·Oh, I loved it; I did.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And there became problems with
19· · the business, right?· You started losing contracts?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And why you would lose contracts?· Because
22· · you couldn't deliver things on time; is that right?
23· · · · A.· ·That was one of the reasons.· It was more
24· · along the lines of -- well, there was several
YVer1f
·1· · occasions where we could not or the route we had --

·2· · the route -- or rather my dad actually had promised
·3· · a time frame and did not meet the time frame.
·4· · Like, say you're going to load and then -- well, he
·5· · had a problem of saying I'm on my way, and then we
·6· · would actually even not be on our way.· Have to go
·7· · start the truck.
·8· · · · · · ·And there's been occasions where he had
·9· · said that, and then the truck was frozen and would
10· · not start and could not even make the load.
11· · · · · · ·So basically we lost contractors
12· · because -- well, it made us look like liars.
13· · · · Q.· ·Right.
14· · · · · · ·And there was another problem in the
15· · business, and that your dad wanted to steal fuel
16· · from other truckers?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Instead of going to a fueling station or a
19· · gas station, like most people do, your dad wanted
20· · to steal fuel from other truckers at rest stops?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And that takes time, right?
23· · · · A.· ·It does.
24· · · · Q.· ·It slows down the process?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·It does.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And that was a big problem and one of the
·3· · reasons why that business went under?
·4· · · · A.· ·It is.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And your brother George was
·6· · pretty upset with that; is that true?
·7· · · · A.· ·Actually, we both were.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You both were.
·9· · · · · · ·He didn't like the fact that this business
10· · was going under because your dad wanted to steal
11· · fuel instead of paying for it like everybody else?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Well, for the most part the idea was
13· · to steal the fuel to make more money, but it
14· · actually hindered us to where it was not making
15· · money.
16· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Now, these crimes -- these
17· · terrible crimes took place on a Thursday night,
18· · Friday morning; is that right?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·Just the Sunday before that, do you
21· · remember seeing Frankie?
22· · · · A.· ·It may have been Sunday; it may have been
23· · Saturday.
24· · · · Q.· ·At swap days, perhaps?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You saw him there, and his little boy,
·3· · right?
·4· · · · A.· ·It was Frankie, Hazel, Brentley -- no. I
·5· · think it was just Ruger.· Brentley may have been
·6· · there.· I believe it was Ruger.
·7· · · · · · ·And I seen Hanna, Dana.· I don't think I
·8· · seen Little Chris.· Yeah.
·9· · · · Q.· ·So just the Sunday before, you saw all
10· · these people you were planning to kill?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·What was going through your mind when you
13· · saw them?
14· · · · A.· ·Honestly, just normal things.
15· · · · Q.· ·And when you got to Dana's, didn't you
16· · say, in your proffer, that it was all dark inside?
17· · · · A.· ·I don't remember that, no.
18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Well, let me see if I can help
19· · you.· Because you don't have a very good memory,
20· · right?
21· · · · A.· ·True.
22· · · · Q.· ·Let me show you a transcript concerning
23· · that.· Page -- the top of 278, bottom of 277.
24· · · · · · ·It's your statement.· Maybe this will
YVer1f
·1· · refresh your memory.

·2· · · · · · ·Well, I just kind of like, you know,
·3· · opened the door because it was unlocked.· Just kind
·4· · of peeked it open.
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And Ms. Canepa says okay.
·8· · · · · · ·And then you said "very slowly."· Do you
·9· · remember that?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And then I believe
12· · Agent Scheiderer here said "Lights on?· Dark?"
13· · · · · · ·You said, "All dark.· All the lights was
14· · out.· I could see a light coming faintly back in
15· · the back area, like, where Dana's room was because
16· · her light was on."
17· · · · · · ·Does that refresh your memory.
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·That's what you told them back in April of
20· · last year?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·You said something different the other
23· · day, didn't you?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You didn't say it was as light as this

·2· · room here?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I was talking about Hanna's room and
·4· · Dana's room.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So was it light or was it dark?
·6· · · · A.· ·In Hanna's room it was light, yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Like this?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And when you were first describing this to
10· · the State during your proffer back in April of last
11· · year, you described Chris Senior's, what we call
12· · scene one -- you described what happened there,
13· · right?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And then you described what happened at
16· · scene two, at Frankie's, right?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And then you decided what -- I'm sorry.
19· · You discussed what happened at scene three, which
20· · was Dana's, right?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·And then didn't you tell them you went
23· · back to Chris's, locked up his truck and threw the
24· · keys inside?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I mean, that happened after Kenneth's.

·2· · · · Q.· ·That happened after Kenneth's.
·3· · · · · · ·But when you told them about it last year
·4· · in April, you left out Kenneth's to the point where
·5· · your lawyer had to say you missed one.
·6· · · · · · ·Do you remember that?· Let me help you.
·7· · · · A.· ·Are you sure?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Well, I want to be sure.
·9· · · · · · ·I don't want to say anything incorrect.
10· · · · · · ·Page 293, 294.· At the top of 293 you say
11· · you drive back to Chris's and you park in the exact
12· · same spot.· You see in that photo.· I locked the
13· · doors, throw the keys in.
14· · · · · · ·Ms. Canepa asks, well, which door?
15· · · · A.· ·What did she ask?
16· · · · Q.· ·Unlock which door, was the question.
17· · · · · · ·Mr. Wilson jumped in with locked.
18· · · · A.· ·You said not unlocked.· Locked.· And then
19· · you said the truck doors.
20· · · · · · ·Locked the truck doors because this is
21· · after everybody gets out.· Locked the truck doors,
22· · throw the keys in it.
23· · · · · · ·Ms. Canepa says, can I stop you for a
24· · second?
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Do you remember this now?

·2· · · · · · ·You said what?
·3· · · · · · ·Did you guys lock up Chris's house,
·4· · Chris Senior's house, or did you, I guess, should I
·5· · ask --
·6· · · · · · ·You said maybe, maybe not.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Can we approach on something?
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.
12· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I'm okay with refreshing his
13· · recollection if we do it the right way.· Hand it to
14· · him.
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'll do that.
20· · · · Q.· ·I'll rephrase my questions.· All right?
21· · · · A.· ·Okay.
22· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to hand you a copy of the
23· · transcript and I'll ask you to read it to yourself.
24· · · · A.· ·Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·See if that refreshes your memory.

·2· · · · A.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · Q.· ·I want you to take your time.
·4· · · · · · ·I'm handing you pages 239, 294.
·5· · · · · · ·Take your time.· It's a two-sided
·6· · document.· Okay?
·7· · · · A.· ·You want me to read the whole thing?
·8· · · · Q.· ·To yourself.
·9· · · · A.· ·Okay.
10· · · · Q.· ·Does that refresh your memory as to what
11· · was said?
12· · · · A.· ·Not specifically, but bits and pieces,
13· · yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Well, your lawyer's name --
15· · one of your lawyer's name is Mr. Meyers; correct?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And didn't he tell you that you missed one
18· · of the events?
19· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I object.
20· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, I object.· He
21· · refreshed his recollection and he said not really,
22· · so --
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Does that refresh your memory as to what

·2· · your lawyer said?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · A.· ·He said I missed one.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Meaning you forgot to tell them about
·7· · Kenneth's?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Now, what was your email address around
10· · the time of these murders?
11· · · · A.· ·It was either chevy1971 or
12· · 1971chevydiesel@hotmail.com.
13· · · · Q.· ·And why was it 1971 diesel or diesel 1971?
14· · · · A.· ·The 1971 model Chevy pickup is my favorite
15· · year pickup.
16· · · · Q.· ·And that was the first one you had when
17· · you were growing up; is that right?
18· · · · A.· ·It is.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you were maybe -- what? -- 15 years
20· · old or so when you got that?
21· · · · A.· ·I was 14.
22· · · · Q.· ·14.· Before you could even be a licensed
23· · driver, right?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·And you happened to see that on a family

·2· · outing in Kentucky; is that right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you were driving down the -- somebody
·5· · was driving down the road.· I assume it wasn't you.
·6· · · · A.· ·No.· It was my father.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Your father was driving, and you spotted
·8· · that truck?
·9· · · · A.· ·I did.
10· · · · Q.· ·And you desperately wanted that truck?
11· · · · A.· ·Well, specifically, I -- I seen it.· It
12· · was a custom-made vehicle.· They don't make them
13· · like that.
14· · · · Q.· ·Right.· That's why you liked it, right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.· And prior -- I mean, about that time
16· · we had started talking about, you know,
17· · first-trucks type thing.
18· · · · Q.· ·Right.· George wanted a truck, too, right?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·He was a little bit older than you, a year
21· · and a month or so?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·A little bit older.· He was -- wanted a
24· · truck, right?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Found one that he wanted as a gift, right?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·That was the discussion in the family,
·5· · right?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And he couldn't get the one he wanted,
·8· · right?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·But you saw this one and your dad bought
11· · it for you?
12· · · · A.· ·Well, this one was special.
13· · · · Q.· ·This one was special.
14· · · · A.· ·So it's -- the one he described is -- you
15· · could find them everyday.· This one was custom
16· · built.· It's that one or nothing.
17· · · · Q.· ·Right.· But it was an expensive truck?
18· · · · A.· ·I think he paid 16,000 for it, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Right.· And you were 14 years old?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And your dad bought you that truck?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And then George got his $2,500 truck
24· · later?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Now, George's birthday is in October and
·3· · yours in is November; is that right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And when the family celebrated George's
·6· · birthday, you got a gift too; isn't that right?
·7· · · · A.· ·I did.
·8· · · · Q.· ·But when your family celebrated your
·9· · birthday, George didn't get a gift, right?
10· · · · A.· ·No.· I remember him getting one too.
11· · · · Q.· ·Oh, you think he -- he got one on your
12· · birthday?
13· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· It was a practice my mom had done.
14· · Of course, it wasn't a big gift; just something to
15· · make the other person feel not left out of the
16· · childhood.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Didn't your mom have a saying that
18· · she always used to make to George, "Why can't you
19· · be like Jake"?
20· · · · A.· ·I believe I heard her say that once or
21· · twice.
22· · · · Q.· ·Once or twice?
23· · · · A.· ·Maybe.· Maybe more.· Maybe.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you were -- when you were
YVer1f
·1· · under the age of 10, you had some strong religious
·2· · beliefs, fair to say?
·3· · · · A.· ·I did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·From a young age?
·5· · · · A.· ·I did.
·6· · · · Q.· ·As a child, you were terrified about going
·7· · to hell?· That was part of your upbringing, right?
·8· · · · A.· ·I mean, I was raised Baptist, so hell was
·9· · a big teaching.
10· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· Your parents wanted to teach you
11· · right from wrong?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you were terrified of going to hell if
14· · you did something wrong?
15· · · · A.· ·Yeah, a little bit.
16· · · · Q.· ·Now, since you've been arrested, you have,
17· · is it fair to say, become more religious or spent
18· · more time thinking about your religion or your
19· · beliefs?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·You've read the Bible many times?
22· · · · A.· ·I have.
23· · · · Q.· ·Front to back?
24· · · · A.· ·I have.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·How many would you say?· How many times,
·2· · approximately?
·3· · · · A.· ·Nearly 23.· Nearly 23.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you kind of have a nickname within the
·5· · jail where you're held concerning that, don't you?
·6· · · · A.· ·I do.
·7· · · · Q.· ·What's that?
·8· · · · A.· ·Pastor Jake or Pastor Wagner.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Or Pastor Hero?
10· · · · A.· ·Huh?
11· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever been called Pastor Hero?
15· · · · Q.· ·Have you tried to write a couple of books
16· · or intend to write books while you're incarcerated?
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll sustain that.
20· · · · Q.· ·You've tried to save souls while you're in
21· · jail; is that right?
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm sorry.· I -- tried to?
24· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Do you want me to repeat the
YVer1f
·1· · question?
·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yes.· Rephrase.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You try to save souls while you're in
·5· · jail?
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Your objection to this?
·7· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Relevance.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Yeah.· I'll sustain the
·9· · objection.
11· · · · Q.· ·Do you think -- do you believe, I should
12· · say.· Do you believe you think logically?
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Objection, Your Honor.
14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· I'm sorry?
16· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Do you believe you think
17· · logically?
19· · · · Q.· ·Are you a logical thinker?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll overrule that.· If that's
22· · the question, I'll overrule the objection.
24· · · · Q.· ·Have you expressed an interest in what's
YVer1f
·1· · going on in Cambodia?

·2· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Counsel wish to
·4· · approach here just a minute?
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I don't see what is happening
·9· · in Cambodia -- I have to have more than that.
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Judge, the relevance goes to
11· · a state of mind.· He wants to send to or fans in
12· · Cambodia animals here to eat as food.
13· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· How is that relevant?
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· State of mind.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Objection's sustained.
21· · · · Q.· ·Do you have particular parts of the Bible
22· · that you -- that speak to you more clearly than
23· · others?· Favorite sections?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·What are those?

·2· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· I'm going to object again.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to sustain that
·4· · objection.· I'm going to have to see some relevance
·5· · in this line of questioning.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Well, have you ever been told have you a
·8· · smart mouth and that you're too confrontational?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Your Honor, objection.
11· · · · · · ·Again, what is the relevance of being a
12· · smart mouth?
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, have you ever been told
14· · that?· I'm going to sustain that and order the jury
15· · to disregard.· I'm not sure where, when, why.· I'm
16· · not --
18· · · · Q.· ·Since you've been incarcerated.
21· · · · Q.· ·Since you've been incarcerated, have you
22· · been told that?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to sustain the
YVer1f
·1· · objection.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any future plans to meet with
·4· · your daughter?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Objection.
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Objection.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Well, you have hopes of meeting your
10· · daughter in the future; is that right?
11· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Objection.
13· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Not relevant.
15· · · · Q.· ·Do you think you'll be able to pick up a
16· · guitar again and practice --
17· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Objection.
18· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Objection.
21· · · · Q.· ·I'm showing you what's previously been
22· · marked as Wagner 35.
23· · · · · · ·(Wagner Exhibit Number 35 was marked for
YVer1f

·2· · · · Q.· ·Do you recognize this photo?
·3· · · · A.· ·Vaguely.
·5· · · · A.· ·It's a holster.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Is that -- the top here, does that appear
·7· · to be your name?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Is this, like, your Facebook or something?
10· · · · A.· ·It's a photo I shared on Facebook, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is the photo of?· Can you
12· · describe it?
13· · · · A.· ·It's a photo of a 1911 holster with
14· · Deadpool riding a unicorn.
15· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?· Riding a what?
16· · · · A.· ·With -- the Marvel character Deadpool
17· · riding a unicorn.
18· · · · Q.· ·So this is a cartoon character?
19· · · · A.· ·Comic book car- -- yeah, pretty much.
20· · Yeah.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that a Pink Pony?
22· · · · A.· ·Supposed to be a unicorn, yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Supposed to be a unicorn.· Okay.· Oh, I
24· · see.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·A pink unicorn?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And that's the holster to a 1911?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And you comment "I want this"?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
·7· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· If I could have just a few
·8· · moments, Judge.
10· · · · Q.· ·A couple more questions, Jake.
11· · · · · · ·Do you remember a time after the murders
12· · when you and your mother took Sophia to see Kylee
13· · either at Miranda Gilley's house or Chelsea's
14· · house?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·What was the point of that?
17· · · · A.· ·I believe Chelsea called me to inform me
18· · that they had gotten Kylee from the foster parents,
19· · I think, where she was, and I had took Sophia to
20· · see her sister.
21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So you went -- who was present
22· · for that?· Who was in the house for that?
23· · · · A.· ·Chelsea, Miranda.· I think Charlie and
24· · some other person showed up later.· Kylee.· I think
YVer1f
·1· · Brentley may have been there, but I'm not sure.
·2· · · · Q.· ·And how long did you stay there, give or
·3· · take?
·4· · · · A.· ·Maybe a half hour.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And how long after the murders was this?
·6· · · · A.· ·Close to a year, I think.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Were you thinking you got away with the
·8· · murders and Sophia should just get to know Kylee
·9· · and just -- you killed both their mothers?
10· · · · A.· ·I mean, Kylee was unapproachable up until
11· · that time.· But, I mean, I wanted to involve Sophia
12· · with her sister.
13· · · · Q.· ·What about your activity, your crime
14· · against Miranda's sister -- do I have that right?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And the other -- what was going through
17· · your mind there?· You were trying to -- you were
18· · acting like you were wanting -- like you did
19· · nothing.
20· · · · A.· ·That was --
21· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Your Honor.
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll overrule the objection.
23· · You may answer.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?

·2· · · · A.· ·That's what I tried to do.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And you did it, right?
·4· · · · A.· ·I -- I believe -- I was almost at least
·5· · partly successful in finish wiping my memory of
·6· · doing this.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Changing topics.
·8· · · · · · ·When you and George worked for R & L and
·9· · you were doing those cross-country driving, there
10· · was a time when a text to the 1911 was sent, I
11· · think on George's phone, but you saw it, right?
12· · · · A.· ·Yep.
13· · · · Q.· ·And you said something to your company
14· · about you had a family emergency; is that right?
15· · · · A.· ·I did.
16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you used the phrase
17· · "family emergency" because that's what the company
18· · required to interrupt a trip; is that right?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And George would argue with you at various
21· · times about how overly protective you were of
22· · Sophia; is that right?
23· · · · A.· ·He did.
24· · · · Q.· ·You've testified -- if I say anything
YVer1f
·1· · wrong, please correct me.

·2· · · · A.· ·Say it one more time, please.
·3· · · · Q.· ·If I say anything wrong, please correct
·4· · me.
·5· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·But you have testified --
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·-- that you and your dad planned this?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·That your mom bought the shoes?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·That you prepared the guns?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·That George wasn't supposed to go along?
15· · · · A.· ·That's -- yeah.· I believe he was part of
16· · the original plan, but the -- then shortly after
17· · that was decided not to go, yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·He didn't want this to happen?
20· · · · Q.· ·He wasn't supposed to go with you and your
21· · dad that night?
22· · · · A.· ·Correct.
23· · · · Q.· ·But went along at the last second?
24· · · · A.· ·That is true.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·To protect you?

·2· · · · A.· ·That is also true.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And he didn't fire a shot?
·4· · · · A.· ·True.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And to get your plea deal, you have to
·6· · make the State of Ohio happy, correct?
·7· · · · · · ·They decide whether you get your plea
·8· · deal?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And you have to involve everybody from
11· · your family in your testimony or you don't get the
12· · plea deal, right?
13· · · · A.· ·I mean, that's not necessarily how I'd
14· · describe it, no.
15· · · · Q.· ·That's not true?
16· · · · A.· ·I mean, I've got to tell the truth, yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·You've got to tell the truth, but they
18· · determine what the truth is?
19· · · · A.· ·I mean, no.· No.· I do.
20· · · · Q.· ·You have to convince them that you're
21· · telling the truth?
22· · · · A.· ·Well, yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·All right.· You have to convince the State
24· · of Ohio you're telling the truth?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I mean, yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· If I could have a moment,
·4· · Judge.
·5· · · · · · ·Thank you, Judge.
·6· · · · · · ·No further questions.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Let's recess until 5 after
·8· · 3:00; that will be a 15-minute recess.
·9· · · · · · ·While you're on recess, ladies and
10· · gentlemen of the jury, you're not to discuss this
11· · case among yourselves or with anyone else.· Do not
12· · permit this case to be discussed with you or in
13· · your presence.· Do not form or express an opinion
14· · concerning the case.· Do no research as to the
15· · facts or the law of the case from any source at
16· · all.· Do not read, listen to, or watch, view any
17· · reports or accounts of the case from any source at
18· · all, and have no contact with the participants in
19· · the case, including parties, counsel, or witnesses.
21· · before we recess for 15 minutes?
22· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· No, Your Honor.
23· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Then we are in recess until 5
24· · after 3:00.
YVer1f

·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Counsel for each side ready
·4· · for the jury?
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Yes.
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Go ahead and bring them up,
·8· · Jason.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Counsel for the State may
11· · redirect.
15· · · · Q.· ·Hi.
16· · · · A.· ·Hello.
17· · · · Q.· ·Just a couple of things I wanted to clear
18· · up immediately.
19· · · · · · ·You were asked if -- if George criticized
20· · you for being overly protective?
21· · · · A.· ·At points, yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were there also points where he
23· · criticized you for being under protective?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, specifically, in regards to

·2· · Beth Ann and the allegations that she had touched
·3· · Sophia, and his perception that you weren't -- that
·4· · you were choosing or putting your wife before your
·5· · daughter?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I think you already testified about
·8· · the length of your -- the time you sat down with
·9· · the State and your attorneys.· Do you know how long
10· · that was?
11· · · · A.· ·Like 12ish hours or something.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall that initially
13· · you just told us what happened, and then we went
14· · back and asked you specific questions or more
15· · specific questions?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm just going to -- you were just
18· · handed this page 294 where you'll recall kind of --
19· · see there at the top Mr. Meyers says, well, you
20· · missed one.
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Regarding Kenneth?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm just going to hand you --
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I walked away without all of
·4· · the papers.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Judge, are these exhibits or
·6· · are we refreshing his recollection?
·8· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· We would object to this. I
·9· · don't know if these -- are these exhibits or are
10· · these --
12· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall telling us earlier in the
13· · interview before that part about going to Kenneth's
14· · and what happened there?
15· · · · A.· ·Maybe.· I mean, I'm sure it's on paper,
16· · right?
17· · · · Q.· ·Would it refresh your recollection to look
18· · at a part from earlier in the interview?
19· · · · A.· ·I mean, it would help.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
21· · · · · · ·It starts at the bottom of page 104 and
22· · then goes a little bit into 105.· Right there where
23· · it starts "Umm."
24· · · · · · ·You don't need to read it out loud, but
YVer1f
·1· · read it to yourself and just let me know if that

·2· · refreshes your recollection.
·3· · · · · · ·You can stop whenever you want.
·4· · · · A.· ·So what was your question again?
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, first of all, the pages of
·6· · those are -- the numbers on those pages are 104 and
·7· · 105; is that correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Does that refresh your recollection
10· · as to whether or not you had already told us about
11· · going to Kenneth's at the point that -- the part in
12· · the interview that Mr. Parker showed you?
13· · · · A.· ·I mean, I can only remember bits and
14· · pieces.· Was -- this happened before that, right?
15· · · · Q.· ·Well, it's page 100, and the other one is
16· · 294, correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.· Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, again, do you have a
19· · recollection that we asked you to tell us what
20· · happened and then we went back and asked you more
21· · specific questions?
22· · · · A.· ·I mean, I only remember bits and pieces,
23· · like, through the proffer, but --
24· · · · Q.· ·Of the interview; sure.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I just wanted to touch a little bit
·3· · on -- you were asked, oh, a lot of questions about
·4· · the things that you were taught growing up, various
·5· · survival skills, as you called them.
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Which kind of sounds to the common person
·8· · as a lot of criminal behavior, would you agree with
·9· · that?
10· · · · A.· ·I mean, it can only be criminal behavior
11· · if you use it for that method, but it could be,
12· · yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So obviously eating roots from the
14· · woods is not criminal?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·But there were certain things that --
17· · well, you were taught a lot of different skills
18· · that could be used for criminal behavior?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And were just you taught that or was your
21· · brother also taught that?
22· · · · A.· ·Both of us were.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you also were asked about
24· · stealing fuel.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·I think you indicated that you never

·2· · actually were the one that stole it, but you would
·3· · act as the lookout or prepare -- help prepare it?
·4· · · · A.· ·I mean -- yeah.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were asked about a trailer that
·6· · was -- your dad thought there was gold in it?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you know about that?
·9· · · · A.· ·That's what dad said it was in it.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you with him when he stole
11· · that?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was anybody else with you when he
14· · stole that?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Who else was with you?
17· · · · A.· ·Myself, father, my mother, my brother, and
18· · my uncle.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And which uncle specifically?
20· · · · A.· ·Uncle Chris Newcomb.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And would you agree
22· · with me that that was not one of the things that
23· · you told us about during your proffer?
24· · · · A.· ·I don't think I mentioned that, no.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Additionally, this whole would take

·2· · the truck or cargo to Mexico and one time came back
·3· · with a briefcase with $100,000 in it, that was not
·4· · something you had mentioned to us, correct?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Objection to leading.
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I'm just -- it's his
·7· · testimony.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule the
·9· · objection.
10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't think I mentioned
11· · that.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, you've said you got to
14· · hold the money.· I imagine that's perhaps the most
15· · amount of money you've seen in one place, or not?
16· · · · A.· ·I think that was.· I mean, yeah, I think.
17· · · · Q.· ·And where were you when you got to hold
18· · that?
19· · · · A.· ·At my house.· Our house.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was this during the time you
21· · lived at Bethel or Peterson?
22· · · · A.· ·Bethel.
23· · · · Q.· ·Bethel.· Okay.
24· · · · · · ·And did anybody else see that money or get
YVer1f
·1· · to hold it as well?

·2· · · · A.· ·I mean, I only remember one memory of it
·3· · and I believe just me and dad was in the room, but
·4· · I'm not sure of that.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But, again, that was not something
·6· · you shared with us in the proffer?
·7· · · · A.· ·No, I don't think so.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you talked about stealing
·9· · cattle too?
10· · · · A.· ·I did.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who else would know about that?
12· · · · A.· ·My father and myself, my mother and my
13· · brother.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, was that anything that
15· · you told us when we sat down with you?
16· · · · A.· ·I think I did mention cattle to you, but
17· · I'm not certain on that.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· The whole your mother would take
19· · your courses, was that when you were -- I didn't
20· · understand that testimony.
21· · · · · · ·Was that when you were going to school to
22· · be a diesel technician or when you were doing your
23· · American Homeschooling?
24· · · · A.· ·Did you say courses?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·The courses that your mother would

·2· · apparently complete for you.
·3· · · · A.· ·Oh.· Schooling.· Yeah, that was high
·4· · school.
·5· · · · Q.· ·The American Homeschooling?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did she do that for your
·8· · brother as well?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you were asked if you were the
11· · favorite child.
12· · · · · · ·Did your mother have a favorite
13· · grandchild?
14· · · · A.· ·I mean, I think we -- we didn't go over
15· · that.· I mean, I accused of, but -- maybe.
16· · · · Q.· ·And what did you accuse her of?
17· · · · A.· ·I mean, I accused her of Bulvine being the
18· · favorite grandchild.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I think you already told us,
20· · however many days ago when I was asking you
21· · questions, that you were close to your mother but
22· · closer to your brother; correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall how you described your
YVer1f
·1· · relationship with your brother to us when you sat

·2· · down with us?
·3· · · · A.· ·I think I used the word -- I think I said
·4· · two peas in a pod, maybe for the most part.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that a fair description?
·6· · · · A.· ·For the most part, yeah.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And, again, the conversation about your
·8· · mother, the purebreds and how you would get
·9· · basically puppies from the pill mill -- pill mill.
10· · From the puppy mill or other locations and pass
11· · them off as purebred.· Again, was your brother,
12· · your father, your mother, and yourself all aware of
13· · that?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And the same thing with the arsons?
16· · I believe you already told us that your entire
17· · family -- mother, brother, father, and yourself --
18· · knew that they were intentional fires that were set
19· · in order to get insurance money; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Same thing with the marijuana grows?· All
22· · four of you knew about those as well; correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you went on these runs
YVer1f
·1· · down to Florida for pills, was your brother also

·2· · present for those?
·3· · · · A.· ·I mean, I wasn't even present for some,
·4· · but whenever I was, yes, he was.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that would have been when you
·6· · were about how old?
·7· · · · A.· ·16, maybe.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then what would you -- what
·9· · would happen with the Percocets that were picked up
10· · from Florida?· Would those be sold or were they
11· · maintained for personal use?
12· · · · A.· ·I believe they were sold.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you were asked about your work
14· · schedule.· Did you guys stop with your trucking
15· · business after the semi burned or was totaled?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·So if I told you that was in January of
18· · 2016, does that sound --
19· · · · A.· ·Ish.· Yeah.· I mean, that doesn't
20· · necessarily sound that's when it was.· It was
21· · before the murders.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you indicated that your dad was
23· · meeting with Chris that night for this drug deal
24· · that was supposed to be taking place at some point
YVer1f
·1· · in the future; correct?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·To your knowledge, was there -- did Chris
·4· · have any money that was stolen from him that night?
·5· · · · A.· ·Not that I know of, no.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And you were asked about these super
·7· · truckers, where people just basically drive beyond
·8· · the legal limits, right?
·9· · · · · · ·There's rules and regulations that you're
10· · supposed to follow for safety, right?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And it's true that when you and
13· · your brother drove for R & L, you would also break
14· · those legal limits?
15· · · · A.· ·Not in -- I mean, a little.
16· · · · Q.· ·A little.
17· · · · A.· ·I can't say the same methods or the same
18· · ways.· Just if you're -- a little.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, do you have any idea,
20· · these pills that were taken, did those come from
21· · the weight loss clinics, to your knowledge?
22· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry?· Where --
23· · · · Q.· ·Like, the speed or the other -- the other
24· · kinds of pills that your dad would take to stay
YVer1f
·1· · awake while he drove for long periods of time?

·2· · · · A.· ·I'm confused.· Are you talking about from
·3· · Florida or -- what are you talking about?
·4· · · · Q.· ·No, not from Florida.· Just, in general,
·5· · when he would drive.· I think you said he would use
·6· · a pain pill and then something that kept him awake.
·7· · · · A.· ·I mean, I don't know all of the things he
·8· · used, but he used several things, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I believe you said your mother,
10· · father, and brother all at one point or another
11· · went down to the weight loss clinic in Kentucky;
12· · correct?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you have any concerns if you
15· · went to court for custody that some of these
16· · illegal behaviors might come out?
17· · · · · · ·I mean, did you feel that Hanna had enough
18· · information on those?
19· · · · A.· ·You're talking about why I didn't take her
20· · to court for custody?
21· · · · Q.· ·No.· I'm asking you if that was what --
22· · was that a concern of yours?
23· · · · A.· ·I'm confused.· So --
24· · · · Q.· ·Did you worry that she might disclose some
YVer1f
·1· · of the criminal behavior that she knew you engaged

·2· · in?
·3· · · · A.· ·Well, my question is -- I want -- make
·4· · sure I understand this.· Are you asking that is --
·5· · was that one of my concerns if I took her to court
·6· · for custody?
·7· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that you went to
10· · Alaska because you felt that God was giving you
11· · signs that suggested or, you know -- that suggested
12· · Alaska was the place to go; correct?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you also said that you focused
15· · your discussions on whether or not you guys had
16· · ties.· And who was involved in those discussions
17· · about whether to go to Alaska or not?
18· · · · A.· ·So your question is who was involved in
19· · discussions to go to Alaska?
20· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
21· · · · A.· ·My brother, my mother, my father, and
22· · myself.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated you had no ties,
24· · obviously, because Hanna was no longer alive.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·Okay.· Tabby was still living in Ohio at

·2· · that time; correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Who is Josey?
·5· · · · A.· ·Who?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Who is Josey?
·7· · · · A.· ·Josey?
·8· · · · Q.· ·Did your brother have a girl that he
·9· · talked to?
10· · · · A.· ·Oh.· In Alaska?
11· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
12· · · · A.· ·That would be an old friend from Minford,
13· · Ohio.
14· · · · Q.· ·And did she have children?
15· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure if she had any biological
16· · children.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But did she have custody and care
18· · of children?
19· · · · A.· ·If I'm not mistaken, I believe she was
20· · trying to get custody of a child, but I'm not sure
21· · if she had custody of the child.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was there discussions that she
23· · might come and live with you guys with that -- at
24· · least that one child?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I don't remember any discussion about

·2· · Josey moving to Ohio, no.
·3· · · · Q.· ·You indicated that Beth Ann turned out not
·4· · to be who you had hoped her to be, apparently, as
·5· · far as her faith goes, but I believe you indicated
·6· · previously that you also did not go to church once
·7· · you were back in Ohio after you had left Alaska; is
·8· · that correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·That is correct.
10· · · · Q.· ·And she would read Bible verses to you and
11· · you guys would discuss those while you were driving
12· · the truck; is that correct?
13· · · · A.· ·I mean, I had her read them, yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·You indicated that -- or you were asked if
15· · you felt that -- you felt concerns for Sophia's
16· · safety.· And you indicated that basically from the
17· · moment she was born you felt protective of her in
18· · regards to making sure she was never a victim of
19· · molestation; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And is it fair to say that your whole
22· · family shared similar concerns, not just as regards
23· · to Sophia but to any child?
24· · · · A.· ·I mean, I would say -- I mean, yeah.
YVer1f
·1· · Yeah.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Your mother?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Your brother?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Your father?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, in fact, when your father
·9· · first approaches you to kill Hanna, that's --
10· · that's the reason he gave you, right?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Is that it could happen?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Right?· Okay.
15· · · · · · ·And I believe you told us that at that
16· · point you did not believe anything had happened,
17· · but just that the conditions were such, especially
18· · based on some of the things your dad was telling
19· · you about people that would be up there when Sophia
20· · was there?
21· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that question, please?
22· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
23· · · · · · ·It was not that you had any information
24· · that something had already happened; it was that
YVer1f
·1· · you did not want to wait for something to happen

·2· · before you took action?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And there was talk about how the
·5· · R & L job back in Ohio paid more than the one in
·6· · Missouri; correct?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Also, your loans did not go through;
·9· · correct?
10· · · · A.· ·That is also true, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And also the information that was provided
12· · on those loans was not 100 percent honest, would
13· · you agree with that?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you were asked if George said
16· · basically giving up this Missouri dream, I'm
17· · heading back to Ohio, you can come with me or not,
18· · basically?
19· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
20· · · · Q.· ·And you indicated, was it both you and
21· · your mother wanted to stay in Missouri, or just one
22· · of you or neither of you?
23· · · · A.· ·I think Mom wanted to stay there too. I
24· · wanted to stay.· But then once the -- I had -- the
YVer1f
·1· · idea of staying at my grandfather's house had

·2· · slipped my mind completely, and the idea of
·3· · utilizing that house while waiting for enough
·4· · financial history and whatnot for loans, then it
·5· · appealed to me, yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you changed your position based
·7· · on discussions with your mother and George in that
·8· · regard?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you were asked if you ever told
11· · George that he was going to go to hell.
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were there times when you were
14· · driving the truck together, the R & L truck
15· · together, that George would basically mock God and
16· · your faith?
17· · · · A.· ·I cannot say he mocked God.· There was
18· · times when he mocked certain beliefs of mine, yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were asked that you basically
20· · grew up with the -- being taught to assume that
21· · somebody was always listening to your
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And, therefore, to guard your
YVer1f
·1· · conversations?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So even before these homicides that
·4· · was true?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you were asked if you had
·7· · a fear of somebody shooting you while you were
·8· · still living at Peterson Road; correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall who was the first person
11· · to suggest that that might happen?
12· · · · A.· ·I think it was my father.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, in fact, when you were
14· · discussing with him who amongst the Rhoden family
15· · needed to be killed, it was -- some of them were
16· · based on the fact that they would know who did it
17· · and would potentially kill you; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Well, assume who did it, and yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated when you got that
20· · call from Andrew Carson, I believe you had
21· · testified about this on direct too, but that was
22· · after you were already back from trying to -- after
23· · you'd forgotten the circular saw and had returned
24· · back to Peterson Road; correct?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And I believe you indicated you stepped
·3· · outside to take that phone call?
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was anybody around you when you
·6· · had that phone call?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You were asked if you have lied basically
·9· · from the time of these homicides until you finally
10· · came forward.· Would you say that is true?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You never admitted to doing these
13· · until you indicated that your grandmother pled
14· · guilty; correct?
15· · · · A.· ·It was after that, but yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Approximately a month later is what you
17· · said, I believe; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Which, again, was more than a year before
20· · you or your attorneys approached us regarding a
21· · plea; correct?
22· · · · A.· ·I mean, I believe you indicated something
23· · first, but yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Well, so if her plea was in December of
YVer1f
·1· · 2019, when do you believe that you had a

·2· · conversation with your attorneys for the first
·3· · time?
·4· · · · A.· ·Januaryish.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·6· · · · A.· ·Maybe.
·7· · · · Q.· ·So January of 2020; correct?
·9· · · · Q.· ·And it was April of 2021 that you entered
10· · your plea?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, again, more than a year later;
13· · correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you were asked about basically
16· · telling the State what they want to hear, more or
17· · less; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I think you indicated that
20· · you're the one that determines what the truth is?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, in fact, you knew that we
23· · believed your mother had a bigger role in this;
24· · correct?
YVer1f

·2· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis is?
·3· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Prosecutor's asking Jake what
·4· · the prosecutor thought or knew.
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Sustain the
·6· · objection.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Did you have an understanding of what the
·9· · State's theory was regarding your mother's role?
12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I -- maybe.· I can't -- I'm
13· · not sure.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you -- what was your
16· · understanding of the State's theory regarding your
17· · brother's role?
20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· If I'm not mistaken, I think
21· · it was presented that him and I was the shooters.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
YVer1f
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Okay.· Overruled.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And is that what you told us?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were asked about your memory.
·6· · You obviously were able to tell us a lot of things
·7· · that happened to you as a child and various
·8· · different events that happened in your childhood;
·9· · correct?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember the things you have told
12· · us about the night of the homicides and the events
13· · leading up to them?
14· · · · A.· ·Are you asking me if I remember what I
15· · told you or do I remember the events?
16· · · · Q.· ·What you have testified to here.
17· · · · A.· ·I mean, for the most part.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember that your brother
19· · went up there with you and your father?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember that he helped you build
22· · that false bed for the truck that you used?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes, he did.· Because -- yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember that he wore a ski
YVer1f
·1· · mask that night?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember that he wore a pair of
·4· · those shoes that your mother had bought for you?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember that he was the first one
·7· · to have that SKS and aimed at Chris Senior but did
·8· · not take a shot?
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Basis?
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· It's assuming facts not in
12· · the record.
13· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, overruled.
15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, I mean, I'm not sure
16· · if he actually took aim.· I mean, he was pointing
17· · that direction, but yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall getting the keys
20· · from Chris Senior and going up to the grow?
21· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat the first part of that?
22· · · · Q.· ·Getting the keys from Chris Senior and
23· · going up to the grow.· Do you remember that?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember later going in and noting

·2· · that the bodies of Chris and Gary had been moved
·3· · and appeared to have been drug?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall getting the phone and
·6· · putting a blanket over Chris and Gary?
·7· · · · A.· ·I don't remember moving the blanket, but
·8· · yes the phone.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall then going over
10· · to Frankie's?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall driving past Dana's
13· · house?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·With your father and brother?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall driving past Kenneth's house
18· · the first time to see if he was home with your
19· · brother and your father?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall going back to
22· · Frankie's house and going in that window?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And then opening the door?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.· Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·For your father and --
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·-- brother?
·5· · · · · · ·And do you recall then going to Dana's
·6· · house?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And entering that residence with your
·9· · father and brother?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And shooting Dana and Hanna?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·And then Little Chris?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall then going down to
16· · Kenneth's house?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·That time in two separate vehicles;
19· · correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·With your brother following?
YVer1f

·3· · · · Q.· ·With your brother following?
·4· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·In the truck that you had arrived in;
·6· · correct?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· The pill runs that you talked
·9· · about, the Florida thing, is that also something
10· · that you did not tell us about when we sat down
11· · with you?
12· · · · A.· ·Did you say the Florida pill runs?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
14· · · · A.· ·I don't think so, no.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were asked about --
16· · · · · · ·Well, I'll just ask you.· Did George help
17· · you dig the hole for those weapons in the barn?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes, he helped me dig it.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I believe in response to
20· · Mr. Parker, you said that he went to do the feeding
21· · after you buried or you were in the process of
22· · burying the duffle bag in that hole; is that
23· · correct?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.· He done the feeding and gathering
YVer1f
·1· · tools while I buried.· He didn't participate in the

·2· · burying.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were asked about swap days the
·4· · Sunday before these homicides; correct?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And Frankie and Hanna Hazel and Ruger were
·7· · there; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·And maybe Brentley.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And maybe Brentley?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And did you hold Ruger that day?
12· · · · A.· ·I did.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did you put him on a pony?
14· · · · A.· ·Actually it was a saddle.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Who else was with you?
16· · · · A.· ·Like, at that moment or just that day?
17· · · · Q.· ·That day.
18· · · · A.· ·My brother, my mother, my daughter, and my
19· · nephew, my uncle, my grandmother -- well, I guess
20· · to be more specific.· My grandmother Rita, my uncle
21· · Chris, his fianceé Randa, and various good friends.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did any of them also see
23· · Frankie and Hazel and Hanna?· Hanna Rhoden.
24· · · · A.· ·Oh, wait.· What was your question again?
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Did any of them see Frankie and Hannah

·2· · Hazel?· Let's start there.
·3· · · · A.· ·I don't think -- Chris, Randa, and my
·4· · grandmother Rita may have, I think.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was Hanna Rhoden also there?
·6· · · · A.· ·She had -- she and Dana had come by.
·7· · Maybe Christopher had come by shortly after that,
·8· · yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Going back to some questions you
10· · were asked yesterday.· Mr. Parker asked you about
11· · your father coming out of Chris Senior's after he
12· · had shot Chris and Gary with the 40 Glock.
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And you described him as having a nervous
15· · breakdown.· And I know you described that to me as
16· · well.
17· · · · · · ·What kinds of things was he saying?
18· · · · A.· ·I can only remember a few words.· I think
19· · he -- he may have said "Oh, God" a couple of times.
20· · I'm not sure.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did he want you to do anything to
22· · him?
23· · · · A.· ·Oh.· He -- he had asked me to shoot him,
24· · too, yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did he talk then or ever about

·2· · Chris looking at him after he was shot?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· What?
·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think he did.· Yes, he
·8· · did, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·And what do you recall about that?
13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think he said something
14· · along the lines of he looked at me with a "Why?"
15· · expression.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Mr. Parker asked you how many shots
18· · you had heard inside of that house after you had
19· · stopped shooting.
20· · · · · · ·Do you have any idea if your father could
21· · have been shooting the 40 Glock while you were
22· · shooting the SKS?
23· · · · A.· ·I mean, he could have.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Either way, did you shoot either
YVer1f
·1· · Gary or Chris with a 40 Glock?

·2· · · · A.· ·No.
·3· · · · Q.· ·The only weapon that you fired at that
·4· · particular location was the SKS; correct?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if anybody else went up to the
·7· · grow at Chris's?
·8· · · · A.· ·No.· I mean -- I mean -- how do you say
·9· · it?· Yes, I know nobody went, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know what your dad and
11· · brother were doing when you went back inside of
12· · Chris Senior's house when you were retrieving his
13· · phone -- the phones?
14· · · · A.· ·Wait.· So are you asking me what they were
15· · doing when I went in?
16· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Can you say what they were doing
17· · when you went in?
18· · · · A.· ·They were still standing over by the
19· · concrete in front of Chris's truck.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you went in, and then when you
21· · came back out as well?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you part of the conversation
24· · where -- well, was it decided before you arrived at
YVer1f
·1· · Union Hill Road that you were going to take Chris's
·2· · truck to the rest of the locations?
·3· · · · A.· ·Not that I can remember, no.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you part of the
·5· · conversation or that decision?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And your testimony is you did not cover
·8· · Dana at all; correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·I don't remember doing so, no.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you did not cover Christopher;
11· · correct?
12· · · · A.· ·No.· I think he was already covered.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Nor did you cover Hanna Mae;
14· · correct?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·Did you cover Frankie or Hannah Hazel?
17· · · · A.· ·No.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you indicated you picked up the SKS
19· · rounds; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
21· · · · Q.· ·And you also picked up the .22 rounds that
22· · you found at Dana's house; correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And indicated that you would have at
YVer1f
·1· · Frankie and Hannah Hazel's, but there was too much
·2· · clutter in the room and you decided it was not
·3· · worth the effort?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·More or less.· I'm paraphrasing obviously.
·6· · · · · · ·And, again, you already testified that you
·7· · had a belief we could not do ballistics on the
·8· · rimfire ammunition; correct?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·There was a discussion about how the
11· · victims were all shot in the head?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Chris Senior was also shot in the arm;
14· · correct?
15· · · · A.· ·I was informed that, yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And Dana was also shot in the neck;
17· · correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you shot the five individuals
20· · that you shot, with the exception of Chris, which
21· · would make six, but you shot at him with the SKS;
22· · correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·When you shot the other five individuals
YVer1f
·1· · with your .22, 1911 .22, did you intentionally

·2· · target the head?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Why?
·5· · · · A.· ·What was that?
·6· · · · Q.· ·Why?
·7· · · · A.· ·So it would be painless.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What makes you feel that that would
·9· · be painless?
10· · · · A.· ·It's instant.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Had your dad expressed any concerns
12· · prior to that night about the .22 caliber being
13· · able to penetrate the skull?
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· The basis would be?
16· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· What relevance does that
17· · have?
18· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'm going to overrule it.
19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Repeat the question, please.
21· · · · Q.· ·Had your dad expressed concerns about the
22· · .22 caliber being able to penetrate a skull?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you have a conversation
YVer1f
·1· · with him about that?

·2· · · · A.· ·I can't remember the conversation, but I
·3· · assured him that it could, yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And your dad had instructed that he
·5· · wanted Chris shot in the head as well; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Parker had asked you about a part in
·8· · your proffer where you told us none of you wanted
·9· · to do it, you were all reluctant, and at some point
10· · your mother and brother tried to talk you out of
11· · it; correct?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did you also tell us that you did not want
14· · to do it and even your dad did not want to because
15· · you all loved Hanna?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·And you also told us in that same proffer
18· · that George was always the SKS guy, you were the
19· · .22 guy, and your dad was the .40 guy?
20· · · · A.· ·This is in the proffer?
21· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
22· · · · A.· ·I don't remember specifically making that
23· · quote.· If -- do you have a --
24· · · · Q.· ·Do you want me to -- would it refresh your
YVer1f
·1· · recollection to review the transcript?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes, please.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · · · ·That question and that answer.· Do you see
·5· · that?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I'm sorry, I just refreshed my -- I
·7· · don't believe I was -- how do I say that?· I don't
·8· · think I understood your question when I said that.
·9· · When you had asked if he was always the SKS guy, I
10· · had the .22 and my father had the .40, I thought
11· · you was talking about specifically that moment
12· · whenever I shot Chris.
13· · · · Q.· ·Right.
14· · · · A.· ·Right.
15· · · · Q.· ·Right.· So -- well, I guess the question
16· · was, when you went up there that night, George had
17· · the SKS, you had a .22 and your dad had a .40.· You
18· · ultimately took the SKS from your brother and shot
19· · Chris; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· But are you asking me specifically
21· · from the get-go of the plan?· Is -- that's how it
22· · sounds.
23· · · · Q.· ·Well, I guess on the night that you went
24· · up.
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·But the whole plan.· Because, I mean,

·2· · originally I was supposed to be the one shooting
·3· · Chris in the first part of the plan.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · A.· ·I'm a little confused here.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'll ask you another question.
·7· · · · · · ·Do you recall saying that a couple of days
·8· · before the homicides that your dad didn't want to
·9· · be the one to shoot Chris, he wanted George to
10· · shoot him from a distance so that Chris never knew
11· · what hit him?
12· · · · A.· ·Umm.· That -- I think so.
13· · · · Q.· ·Let me back up.
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.· I think so, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Your mother bought those shoes for
16· · both you and George; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And we already determined that was
19· · approximately two weeks prior to the homicides;
20· · correct?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated previously that
23· · after you were done shooting that SKS, you gave it
24· · back to George before you went into the home to get
YVer1f
·1· · the keys from Chris?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that when you were in Dana's
·4· · house, that your dad had the .40 and your brother
·5· · had the SKS; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You also indicated that at some point you
·8· · actually thought your dad was going to shoot
·9· · everybody?
10· · · · A.· ·I did, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, when Mr. Parker was
12· · questioning you yesterday, he was talking about you
13· · building a false bed, you getting into the back of
14· · the truck, you going up to the hill, et cetera.
15· · But, again, your brother was with you in the bed of
16· · that truck; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And when your dad pulled over and said
19· · last chance -- I mean, he said basically if you
20· · want to turn around now, we can turn around now,
21· · basically?
23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·What did he say when he pulled over on the

·2· · way to Chris Senior's house?
·3· · · · A.· ·He said it was the last chance out.
·4· · · · · · ·It sounded like you didn't finish the
·5· · question.· Can you repeat the question, please.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.
·7· · · · · · ·When he pulled over, did he open the gate,
·8· · the tailgate, to talk to you or did he talk to you
·9· · through the tailgate?
10· · · · A.· ·No.· He dropped the tailgate, yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And he said last chance to call it
12· · off, or whatever?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.· He asked me that, yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you say?
15· · · · A.· ·I said -- I said something along the lines
16· · of something like -- this isn't a quote.· It may be
17· · worded a little differently.· I said something
18· · along the lines of no, this is for Sophia, or I got
19· · to protect Sophia, or something like that.
20· · Something -- I forget the exact words I used.
21· · · · Q.· ·You offered a reason why you needed to
22· · continue on?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You did not get out of the vehicle
YVer1f

·2· · · · A.· ·I did not.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Did your brother get out of the vehicle at
·4· · that time?
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And, again, you all went into Dana's house
·7· · that night; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And you told us that George would have
10· · shot Little Chris if he had come out of the room --
13· · · · Q.· ·-- that night?
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well --
15· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Leading questions, Judge.
17· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· One leading question after
18· · another.
19· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· I'll sustain the
20· · objection.· It is leading.
22· · · · Q.· ·And regarding the decision to -- when
23· · George got in that truck and drove behind you and
24· · your father on the way to Kenneth's that last time,
YVer1f
·1· · did you know ahead of time that he was going to

·2· · pull off at that pull-off?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·So that decision was not made by you?
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Or in your presence?
·7· · · · A.· ·No.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that your father
·9· · signaled to your brother --
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection to the leading
11· · nature of the questions, Your Honor.· These have
12· · been asked and answered.
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, again, Your Honor, the
14· · point is when Mr. Parker asked Jake, he left George
15· · out of the story altogether.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I haven't heard the whole
17· · question yet.· Why don't you ask the question, so I
18· · can --
20· · · · Q.· ·The question was, your father signaled to
21· · your brother and then he followed you back up to
22· · Chris Senior's?
24· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, that sounds like a
YVer1f
·1· · leading question, so I'll sustain that just as to

·2· · the form of that question.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Did your father signal to your brother?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.· It's been asked
·6· · and answered.
·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· If I'm not mistaken, I think
·9· · we already touched on this subject.· But I think he
10· · did, but I'm not sure.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did he signal with?
13· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection, Judge.· He said he
14· · wasn't sure.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, he said he was not sure
16· · about whether there was a signal, so I'll sustain
17· · the objection to that question.· Although the
18· · subject matter is acceptable, but that question is
19· · not.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what happened after you passed
22· · the location where George's truck was?
23· · · · A.· ·He followed behind us.
24· · · · Q.· ·And once you got back to
YVer1f
·1· · 260 Peterson Road, you all took off your clothing
·2· · and put them in the hog trough where you later
·3· · burned them; correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And you and your brother took apart the
·6· · false bed and your dad left with the truck;
·7· · correct?
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.· Leading.· It's
·9· · been asked.· It's been answered.
10· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, it is a leading
11· · question, so I'm going to sustain the objection.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You were asked about you getting
14· · back to 260 Peterson Road and disassembling that
15· · false bed.
16· · · · · · ·Did somebody else help you disassemble
17· · that false bed?
18· · · · A.· ·I think we've touched on this.· I don't
19· · know -- I can't remember if it was disassembled
20· · that night or later on.· I can't remember if I done
21· · it then or not.· I don't think it was disassembled
22· · directly.· I think it was later on.
23· · · · Q.· ·Later on that day before your dad took it
24· · away?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·No.· Later on, like, months.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall testifying earlier
·3· · this week that when you got home, you and George
·4· · took apart that false bed?
·6· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I'm asking if he remembers
·7· · it.
·8· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll overrule the
·9· · objection.· Let him answer if he can.
10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Are you asking me if we took
11· · it off the truck or disassembled the --
13· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry.· Took it off the truck?
14· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.· Yes, we did.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who did?
16· · · · A.· ·My brother and I.
17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And later when your dad comes up
18· · with the idea of this goose house -- I was unclear.
19· · I believe you indicated initially it was for
20· · Father's Day and then you were asked about your
21· · grandfather's birthday.
22· · · · · · ·Do you recall, was it -- what the weather
23· · was like at the time that you built and delivered
24· · that goose bed?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·It was warm out.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you have any recollection as
·3· · to how long after the homicides that happened?
·4· · · · A.· ·I'm not -- it was months.· I'm not sure.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated -- well, okay.
·6· · · · · · ·You also -- you told us about where to
·7· · find the weapons; correct?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·That was not something we knew prior to
10· · talking to you; correct?
11· · · · A.· ·Correct.
12· · · · Q.· ·And you told us about the truck that you
13· · had gotten from your uncle Silas; correct?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·And you were asked about the dyeing of --
16· · your brother and you dyeing your hair; correct?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you indicated that that had nothing to
19· · do with the homicides; correct?
20· · · · A.· ·Correct.
21· · · · Q.· ·And you told us that when you sat down
22· · with us; correct?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And did we believe you?
YVer1f

·3· · objection.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall if we had a
·6· · conversation about whether or not we believed you?
·8· · Irrelevant.
·9· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, it is relevant.
11· · the objection and let him answer it if he can.
12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I mean, I had to convince
13· · you.· I mean, initially you did not.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you change your story and say
16· · what we wanted you to say about the dyeing of the
17· · hair?
18· · · · A.· ·No.
19· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Parker asked you a lot about what time
20· · you did certain things that night.
21· · · · · · ·Did you have a watch or a phone with you
22· · that night?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·I believe you indicated you turned on
YVer1f
·1· · Chris Senior's phone at one point?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Other than that, did you ever -- were you
·4· · aware of the time prior to returning to
·5· · Peterson Road?
·6· · · · A.· ·No.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember talking about whether or
·8· · not you were honest with each other in your family?
·9· · · · A.· ·For the most part, yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that's something that was
11· · emphasized to you, in addition to all of these
12· · other things that you were taught when you were
13· · growing up; is that a fair statement?
14· · · · A.· ·I mean, I was taught that, yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when we talked to you, did we
16· · tell you that we just wanted you to tell us the
17· · truth?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And do you recall telling us that you were
20· · not coming forward because you were afraid to go to
21· · trial?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And that you were coming forward because
24· · you're a Christian and you were sincerely repentant
YVer1f
·1· · and you had prayed, and then your grandmother pled
·2· · guilty and you considered that a sign?
·3· · · · A.· ·I did.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And that initially you were just going to
·5· · go to trial and not testify; correct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·But then you felt that God was
·8· · telling you --
11· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Objection.· Very leading.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well, I'll sustain that.
14· · · · Q.· ·So what ultimately made you come forward?
15· · · · A.· ·So is your question what made me --
16· · · · Q.· ·Come forward to -- and tell us what had
17· · happened.
18· · · · A.· ·Bear with me a second.
19· · · · · · ·So your question is what made me come to
20· · you initially for the plea deal or what led me to
21· · take the plea deal?
22· · · · Q.· ·What made you come forward initially, I
23· · guess.
24· · · · A.· ·That was curiosity.· I was wondering what
YVer1f
·1· · you was presenting to the table.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you also at that time
·3· · praying about it?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were there particular Bible
·6· · verses that were important to you at that time?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And what were those?
·9· · · · A.· ·Well, I'm not good with verse numbers, but
10· · there was three.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were those?
12· · · · A.· ·You want me to describe?
13· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
14· · · · A.· ·The first one was in Jonah, which said
15· · those who observe vanities forsake their own mercy.
16· · · · · · ·The second was in Second Kings.· Might
17· · have been Second Chronicles.· I think it was Second
18· · Chronicles, actually.· And it was this passage that
19· · described going -- well, two kings of Israel and
20· · Judah going to battle -- what's that place?· One of
21· · the valleys.· I forget off the top of my head.
22· · · · · · ·What was that?
23· · · · · · ·I think they were battling the kings of
24· · Mahan.· Ultimately, they -- what's the word?· They
YVer1f
·1· · inquire of an X amount of false prophets that told

·2· · them they would be prosperous if they go to battle.
·3· · And then they inquire of one of the true prophets
·4· · -- at the time true prophet of the Lord, which told
·5· · them basically if they did go up to battle that
·6· · they would die.
·7· · · · · · ·And then the third verse was in the New
·8· · Testament.· I think it was in Matthews.· And it's
·9· · where Jesus says the parable that to meet your
10· · adversary in the way and let the adversary take you
11· · to the officer and the officer to the judge.· The
12· · judge cast you in prison, you will never come out.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was part of the deal that you --
14· · your attorneys negotiated was your hope to help
15· · your mother, help your brother, and help your
16· · father?
17· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure I understand the question.
18· · Can you repeat -- say it one more time?
19· · · · Q.· ·Well, you requested that the death
20· · specifications be removed from your mother, your
21· · father, and your brother; correct?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I believe you already testified
24· · that you did that because you wanted to help them?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·I mean, I wanted them to be able to go to

·2· · trial without the fear of death, yes.
·3· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· I have no other questions,
·5· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Any further cross?
·6· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Just a couple of questions.
·7· · · · · · · · · · RECROSS-EXAMINATION
·9· · · · Q.· ·Jake, you're a stone cold killer of eight
10· · people, aren't you?
11· · · · A.· ·I was.
12· · · · Q.· ·You are?
13· · · · A.· ·Well, I did.
14· · · · Q.· ·You did kill eight people?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And you're lying all the time, aren't you?
17· · · · A.· ·I did.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you sold your testimony to save your
19· · own life?
20· · · · A.· ·Wait.· Will you say that again?
21· · · · Q.· ·You sold your testimony to the State of
22· · Ohio to save your life?
23· · · · A.· ·I mean, I provided truthful testimony for
24· · exchange for my life -- a life, yes.
YVer1f
·1· · · · Q.· ·You're hoping they believe you because

·2· · that would save your life?
·3· · · · A.· ·I mean --
·4· · · · Q.· ·That's the price you demanded.· You didn't
·5· · come forward and throw yourself on the mercy of the
·6· · court with death specifications and let the judge
·7· · decide whether you lived or died.· You sold that
·8· · deal to the State of Ohio.
·9· · · · A.· ·I mean, that's one way to look at it.
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Thank you.· No further
11· · questions.
12· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Any further direct?
16· · · · Q.· ·Again, you personally killed five of the
17· · eight individuals; correct?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Obviously you were complicit in the
20· · other three?· You aided and abetted in the other
21· · three?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You have taken responsibility for
24· · that?· You have pled guilty?
YVer1f
·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, your understanding of
·3· · the deal was that you provide truthful testimony;
·4· · correct?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that what you have done?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· No further questions.
·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Any further from the defense?
10· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· Take him away, Judge.· We've
11· · got nothing else.
13· · · · · · ·MR. WILSON:· Objection.· Objection.
14· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· You may step down.
15· · · · · · ·We are going to recess for the day -- for
16· · the week, I guess.
17· · · · · · ·You'll will be going home for the weekend,
18· · ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
19· · · · · · ·You need to be back here at 9:00 o'clock
20· · on Monday morning.
21· · · · · · ·Again, the admonition is that you not
22· · discuss this case among yourselves or with anyone
23· · else; that you not permit anyone to discuss this
24· · case with you or in your presence; that you not
·1· · form or express an opinion concerning this case

·2· · until it's finally submitted to you for
·3· · deliberation and verdict; that you not do any
·4· · research at all concerning the facts or the law of
·5· · the case from any source at all; that you not read,
·6· · view, or listen to any reports or accounts of the
·7· · case from any source at all, including television,
·8· · radio, newspapers or any of the Internet sources.
·9· · Refrain from all of that.· And that you have no
10· · contact with the participants in the trial,
11· · including parties, counsel, or witnesses.
12· · · · · · ·You'll be leaving your notepads on your
13· · seat, wearing your badges home and wearing them
14· · back Monday morning at 9:00 o'clock.
15· · · · · · ·You'll be brought up from the jury room
16· · Monday morning at 9:00 o'clock.· So that's where
17· · you will report to, as you've been doing.
18· · · · · · ·Does counsel for the State or counsel for
19· · the defense have anything further at this time
20· · before we recess until Monday morning at 9:00?
21· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Just one thing.· This can be
22· · done outside of the jury.
·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Anything further from the

·2· · State?
·4· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Then we are in recess until
·5· · 9:00 o'clock Monday morning.
·6· · · · · · ·(Jury exited the courtroom at 4:34 p.m. )
·7· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· Was there
·8· · something you wished to put on the record now that
·9· · the jury is gone?
10· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Pursuant to the plea agreement
11· · with Jake Wagner, we now move to dismiss the death
12· · specification against George Wagner.
13· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Wait.
14· · · · · · ·MR. JUNK:· Your Honor, that's not the
15· · defense's position to even request that.
16· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Does the State have some idea
17· · at what point we're going to be deciding whether we
18· · still have death specs in this case?
19· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· Well, yes.· I think we would
20· · like to discuss that, Your Honor, and not in a
21· · public forum --
22· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Well --
23· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· -- at this point.· But we
24· · are, Your Honor, asking that he be released as a
·1· · witness.· Jake Wagner to be released as a witness

·2· · so that his attorneys can now talk to him.
·3· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· All right.· So you are through
·4· · with him?
·5· · · · · · ·MS. CANEPA:· We are through with him.
·6· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Does defense have any
·7· · objections to his being returned to jail?
·8· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He's not a witness any
·9· · longer.
10· · · · · · ·MR. MEYERS:· Thank you, Your Honor.
12· · · · · · ·All right.· So Monday morning at 9:00.
13· · · · · · ·MR. NASH:· Thank you, Judge.
15· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· Have a good weekend.
16· · · · · · · · · · · · ·* * * * *
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
·3
·8· · 18-CR-155, on Friday, October 28, 2022, was
13· · November, 2022.
14
15
16
17· · · · · · · · · · · ________________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · Jo Ann Betler, RDR
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: $100,000..3rd
15 718:24 722:3 744:1 753:8 2021 688:6,20 690:20 709:11,
$ 757:5 772:12 882:19 898:21 16 920:9
15-minute 898:8 2022 676:1 704:20
$100,000 905:3
16 690:4,6 722:3 725:4 747:9 21 711:1 843:2
$2,500 884:23 857:12 867:4 909:7
21-question 779:20
$200,000 749:1 16,000 884:18
21st 820:10
$50 744:1 19 690:24
22 744:13 858:18 861:14
1911 861:10 892:13 893:3 931:21 933:1,12,22 934:19
( 895:10 933:1 935:10,17
(A)(1) 820:23 1971 882:13,14 23 887:3

1971chevydiesel@hotmail. 2317.02 820:22 821:16
0 com 882:12 2317.02(a)(1) 825:11 828:22
19th 691:2 239 881:4
04ish 716:12
1:00 817:9 24 801:10
1:30 815:21 816:13,16 24th 687:16
1
260 942:1,14
1 861:11 2
277 876:23
10 712:9 744:1 746:9 886:1
20 737:16 754:12 278 876:23
100 858:4 902:15 916:12
200 851:9 28 676:1 704:20
104 901:21 902:6
2000 715:17 29 710:18
105 901:22 902:7
2000- 746:9 293 879:10
107 823:3
2002 715:16 294 879:10 881:4 900:18
10:00 806:15 902:16
2003ish 716:12
10ish 742:12 2KO 715:20
2004 758:10
11 685:15 712:9 746:10 757:4
2006 759:16
794:4 3
2007 759:18
11:00 806:16
2011ish 741:18 30 744:8,21 839:13,15,18
11:30 681:10
2012 715:22 31 840:4,5
11:50 814:5
2013 748:2,4 871:4 32 840:14,16
12 692:22 695:7 712:9 717:12
861:10 2013ish 741:18 33 837:2,3 841:7,8,11
12-hour 692:21 697:14 2016 871:5,6,10 909:18 34 837:2,3,18 841:7,8,15
12-volt 720:2 2017 760:22 763:2 765:13 35 891:22,23
775:20 809:5,6
12ish 900:11 37 713:1,4
2018 829:2 38 711:7,8
13 717:12 736:4 747:2 758:8,9
861:11,17 2018-CR-154 818:17 3:00 898:8,24
14 692:22 699:10 702:14 2018-CR-155 704:22 817:16 3rd 690:24
718:23 747:2 758:8 759:3
2019 920:1
882:21,22 884:19
2020 697:17 827:3,4 920:7
14-hour 692:21
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: 4-..agreed
99 828:12 3 775:4 830:16
4
9:00 952:19 activity 714:19 752:19 894:13
4- 749:4 9:30 685:16 actual 717:11 725:16 726:21
734:11 872:15
40 744:22 928:12 929:21 930:1 9ish 733:5 742:12
934:19 935:10,17 937:4 add 830:11
40,000 721:18 A addition 676:6 683:8 694:20,
24 695:18 702:4 946:11
41 764:11 767:20 768:1
A-HOLE 800:6 additional 691:21 696:7
45 817:4 700:13 829:5
abandoned 720:21
450 749:4 Additionally 905:1
abetted 951:20
48 779:14 801:14 809:2 address 680:12 724:21 882:9
ability 786:3
4:00 803:2 addressed 687:21
absolutely 680:24 687:18
787:19 844:23 administered 705:22
5
absolve 697:22 admit 815:14 859:18
5 898:7,23 abuse 790:8 793:8 admitted 919:12
5078 827:4 abused 794:3,5,6 admonition 952:21
abusive 782:19 advance 791:10 792:8
6 accept 677:22 advanced 825:6
600 748:7 acceptable 681:6,24 682:5 adversary 949:10
686:22 941:18
advertise 743:6 842:18
7 access 686:10,16 843:24 844:2
accident 802:18 aerial 753:20
7 733:4 accidental 746:4 affected 739:3 847:23,24
71 828:5 account 837:8,17 affects 703:21
712 702:16 accounts 816:8 898:17 affirmative 821:23 824:18
772 851:6 accumulated 851:23 858:22 affirmatively 684:24
7th 700:21 accurate 846:18 afford 850:10
accuse 907:16 afraid 946:20
8
accused 690:11 740:11 afternoon 684:5 705:18
8 733:4 787:17 907:15,17
age 713:13 715:5 726:19
80,000 721:17 acknowledge 684:3,18 740:5 742:13 784:8 886:1,4
801 813:9 acquire 838:11 agent 705:5 877:12
84 691:2,10,12 acquired 838:21 agents 765:7 766:4 809:19
acres 748:7 810:17,21 815:3
8ish 733:5
act 904:3 aggressively 809:22
9 acted 835:11,14 agree 686:18,20 726:15 740:9
809:23 813:6 861:17 862:12
acting 894:18 903:8 904:21 916:13
9 690:24 691:10 733:4
action 825:24 826:2 916:2 agreed 778:1 822:10 850:18
911 750:12
activities 703:6 715:14 774:1,
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: agreement..attention
agreement 820:9 889:12 archery 729:23
agreements 826:12 anime 777:13 area 689:5,6 755:24 759:21
877:15
ahead 681:7 687:8 804:3 Ann 900:2 914:3
899:7 940:1 areas 718:12 752:7 804:7
anniversary 765:12 808:12
aided 951:20 argue 681:13 682:14 819:7
answers 677:6 690:8,19
824:10 895:20
aim 923:16 692:7
argued 688:15 817:2 821:20
aimed 923:7 anticipate 685:2 703:16
arguing 682:3
air 777:15,19 anticipated 829:9
argument 800:8 819:22
airfare 700:19 anticipation 697:18
821:14 825:5 826:4 829:11
AK 862:5 apocalypse 715:21 830:10
akin 828:2 apologize 828:11 arguments 817:9

Alabama 742:18 apparently 733:19 748:17 arisen 683:14
778:24 780:2 791:21 794:9
Alaska 701:5 758:22 759:1, arm 784:3 932:13
850:14 907:2 914:4
15,17,21 760:8 762:6,9 764:17
arrangements 765:1
765:2 767:14 768:1 770:23 appeal 828:13
771:17 776:20 780:8,12 arrested 848:13,14 862:22
appealed 917:5
794:17 835:19 912:10,12,17, 886:16
19 913:10 914:7 Appeals 827:4
arrived 835:2 926:5 930:24
Alaska's 795:6 appearance 676:13 763:10
arsons 745:14 908:15
Alberta 768:12 appeared 697:5 924:3
artist 845:7
alert 757:22,23 appearing 824:13
asks 879:14
Aleyska 775:2 appellate 678:14 686:8
asleep 838:17,18
831:17 833:2
alive 762:19 912:24
aspirations 782:4
apple/orange 826:23
allegations 900:2
assault 862:10
applies 692:13
allowed 757:3
assaulted 794:10
apply 828:22
alluded 828:23
Assemble 816:17
approach 700:1 738:6 810:12
altogether 940:15
845:1 856:18 880:7 889:4 assigned 842:15
aluminum 721:14
approached 679:16 738:8 assist 719:7
American 727:18 906:23 810:14 845:3 880:9 889:5
assume 696:19 715:3 804:24
907:5 919:20
883:5 917:20 918:18
ammunition 932:8 approaches 915:9
assumed 748:5 862:16
amount 723:15 731:7 905:15 approve 800:1
assuming 780:22 923:11
949:1
approved 799:24
assured 934:3
amounts 822:17
approximately 708:10
attempt 703:10
anchors 869:3,7 709:23 753:7 754:11 887:2
919:16 936:19 attempted 751:15
Andrew 676:9 705:3 833:22,
24 834:2 918:20 April 688:6,20 707:9 709:12 attended 798:6,8
710:3 765:13,20 767:3 808:13
Angela 676:9 705:3 739:22 attention 678:18,21 682:9
809:12 820:10 850:22 851:12
688:10 691:4 700:4 803:19
angry 758:16 871:10 877:19 878:10 879:4
804:8,9
920:9
animals 754:20 864:8 871:24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: attorney..bend
attorney 676:9 677:16 679:21 841:1 850:22 851:11 858:6 920:15 937:19,21 949:5
698:1 700:14 705:2 821:9 867:11 877:14,15,19 878:10,
basics 707:6 712:1
822:7 832:10 838:10 23 879:11 886:23 900:14
902:20 905:2 914:7 916:5,17 basis 727:4 852:13 921:2
attorney's 821:11
918:22,24 924:21 928:9 923:10 933:15
attorney-client 677:1,10 930:11,21 936:13,24 937:13
940:21 941:24 942:14 952:19
battle 685:3 828:2 948:20
679:11,19 680:1 681:17
949:2,5
683:15 687:19 702:24 819:8
backtracked 692:2
821:3 822:14 829:21 831:22 battling 948:23
832:2 bad 786:20 787:13,14,19,20,
24
BC- 863:22
attorneys 687:24 704:24
705:3 817:17 818:8,9,13,19 bag 863:7 864:11 865:22,23 BCI 764:20 765:7 766:4 769:4
808:8 809:19 810:17,21 836:4
819:17,22 820:3,19 822:2,12 866:7 867:7,9,13 926:22
850:22 855:22 862:15
832:18,20 900:9 919:20 920:2
ball 824:21
949:14 BCI&I 705:5
ballistics 932:7
audio 688:7,9 BCI's 768:1
bandage 732:16
August 748:4 775:23 808:9 Beagle 752:22
bang 785:13
authorities 813:3 Beagles 752:24
Baptist 886:8
automatically 720:9 beam 865:20
bar 736:6,7
autopsy 703:23 beams 865:4
bargain 826:8 829:19 836:14
average 781:2 Bear 947:18
bargaining 848:17
awaiting 853:12 bed 922:22 937:13,15 942:6,
barn 736:5 737:11 863:14 15,17 943:4,24
awake 757:15 758:3 911:1,6
864:12,14,22 865:3,5,8 866:7,
aware 705:17 724:12 745:24 15 926:17
bedroom 790:22
746:15 819:12 856:2 857:6,9 beds 733:15
barrels 863:11
908:12 946:4
Barter 843:12,13 beginning 680:19 717:7
718:6
B base 699:3
begun 825:3
based 699:1 793:22 915:18
B&b 761:6 behalf 691:14 821:17 824:13
917:6 918:16
828:8 832:20 857:19
babies 782:20,21 783:7,12,13, baseline 717:6
14,15 784:6 behaved 848:1
basement 716:13 749:9
baby 782:11,15 783:14,15,17 751:8,12,14
behavior 758:11 847:22
788:9,13,15 789:6 791:24 903:8,10,18 912:1
792:22 basic 712:20 790:14
behaviors 911:16
back 676:17 683:1,8 685:9 basically 712:2 719:13
belief 932:7
689:18,24 693:19 696:16 720:22 721:6 723:2 726:7
707:9 709:4 721:24 725:8 729:1 733:21 734:17 735:18 beliefs 886:2,19 917:18
727:16 734:4,13,23 735:4,5 744:2,6 749:24 751:2 755:17
757:1,8,10 761:4,16 762:3,4 believed 689:12 720:24
736:16 737:3,4 754:8 755:19
763:7,9,10 766:16,20 772:16 920:23 945:6
759:16 760:10,11,12,17,21
762:24 763:8,21 764:2,7,13, 774:11 775:6 777:12,13 779:3, believes 677:1
16,19,22 767:5 770:7 775:12 8,11,18 780:6,9 786:5 790:19
792:23 793:4 795:20 796:13, belongings 767:20
778:20 779:14 780:5 790:1
791:24 794:20 796:22 797:4, 17 797:16 802:16 803:8 bench 679:16 738:8 810:14
10,11,17 801:3,7 803:5 806:20 804:15,23,24 805:1 806:8 821:20 845:3 880:9 889:5
809:1 817:4,5,8 818:5 820:10 835:11 838:19 845:8 868:9
826:16 834:10,23 838:23 874:11 908:9 910:7 914:16 bend 733:20
916:16,18 917:15,19 919:8
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: bending..built
bending 734:11 bloody 812:12 breeds 742:10
benefit 851:19 blue 693:13 Brentley 876:4,5 894:1 927:8,
9
bent 734:10 boast 712:12
briefcase 723:17,20 905:3
Bernie 764:11,23 765:1,6 bodies 834:4 924:2
briefly 845:21
bet 685:7 825:4 bolt 720:1 725:7
bring 678:17,20 682:9 691:4
Beth 771:20 772:17,19 774:9 bomb 716:17
700:3 703:10 705:12 761:16
776:15 780:17 836:6 862:14
bond 730:21 781:22 777:2 818:13,14 833:5,9 858:5
900:2 914:3
899:7
book 892:19
Bethel 714:21 715:6 716:9
bristles 719:15
724:21,22 726:15 729:14 books 887:15,16
730:11 741:1,22,24 744:18 British 768:13
745:13 748:8,9 751:6,21
booming 743:19
broad 684:9 696:12,15
752:20 755:4,5 857:7,13 booth 843:5,7
905:21,22,23 broadcast 763:6
border 693:5 723:1,7
Bible 777:3 779:10,11 798:14 broadcasting 770:4
886:21 889:21 914:10 948:5 bored 755:18
broke 735:14
big 721:3 726:4 734:5,15,19 born 715:2 748:1,3 792:23
742:21 744:19 748:19,20 914:17 broker 726:2
749:2,20,21 757:17 780:2 bother 684:16 brother 710:22 711:2 733:17
801:3 866:14 875:2 885:14 749:19 754:17,18 775:16
886:9 bottom 876:23 901:21 778:22 786:21 819:19 826:18,
bought 723:23 726:1 742:21 21 829:4 850:13 856:1,12
bigger 920:23
884:10,21 896:10 923:4 873:5,15 875:5 903:21 904:17
biggest 742:6 783:16 784:19 936:15 906:13 907:8,22 908:1,11,17
909:1 910:13 911:10 912:21
Billy 695:24 box 867:23,24 868:20 869:6, 913:8 915:4 922:18 924:15,19
biological 913:15 14 925:4,9,23 926:3 927:18
boy 735:16 876:2 930:11 934:10 935:18 937:4,
bipolar 847:19
15 939:3 940:9,21 941:4 942:5
bipolarism 848:1 boyfriend 790:15 943:16 944:16 949:15,21
birth 791:10 Brady 690:9,22 691:3,12,13 brother's 741:17 823:21

692:10,13 703:15 847:13 921:17
birthday 793:18 868:15,17
869:9 885:2,6,9,12 943:21 bragged 845:23 brought 705:9 721:7 723:20
bread 715:12 716:4,6 816:18 841:1
bit 718:14 729:3 730:23
763:18 781:10 801:24 841:4 break 707:3 718:7 735:17,19 Brown 764:23 765:6
883:20,23 886:15 901:22 755:19 781:8 910:13 Brown's 764:11 765:1
903:2
breakdown 928:15 Brunson 827:4,18
bits 798:15 881:12 902:13,22
breaking 735:12 buckets 869:7,14 870:4
black 732:14,15 747:14
breakup 788:18 789:4 buggy 844:1
blah 771:2
bred 743:12 build 736:5 747:18 748:22
blame 787:21
breed 744:15 749:8 761:6 864:12 867:16
blanket 924:6,7 868:8,10,11 922:21
breedable 743:2
blindly 690:17 building 708:20 709:5 714:11
breeders 742:19 745:5 737:11 834:19 937:13
block 709:4
breeding 745:1,3 752:17 built 748:18 749:5 868:20
blood 735:3 753:12 884:16 943:23
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: Bulldogs..charged
Bulldogs 742:11 847:19 867:23,24 887:11 carry 712:15
893:17 903:5
bullets 860:19 861:10 Carson 833:22,24 834:2
calling 701:21 918:20
Bulvine 775:16 783:19 797:17
907:17 calls 778:22,23 854:11,15 cartoon 777:15 892:18
bunch 770:11 Calvert 727:12 cartoons 777:14
bungee 734:10 Cambodia 889:1,9,12 case 677:4 683:14,16 689:10
690:14 693:16 694:1,14
buried 715:13 716:8,12 camera 804:10 855:12
701:22 704:20,22 712:22
863:13 926:21 927:1
cameras 804:8 716:20 724:17 761:9 769:8
burn 745:18 746:2,22 747:17 815:24 816:1,3,5,8,10 817:16
camper 751:22 818:17 825:9,22 826:1,7
burned 746:16,21 747:13,18 827:2,5 828:5,9,21 829:3
Canada 768:5,10,11 778:20
749:13 855:3,7 909:15 942:3
809:2 831:24 849:2,10,16,17 862:22,
burning 749:16 23 863:1 898:11,12,14,15,17,
canceled 806:19 19 952:22,24
bury 716:10 724:13,14,20
Candra 818:20 cash 723:15 844:10
burying 864:10,11 926:22
Canepa 676:9 679:6 680:24 cast 825:19 949:12
927:2
682:18,24 686:18 688:22
bus 802:23 803:3,11,14,16 691:15 693:5 694:19 696:6 cattle 725:19,20 870:14
697:2,10 698:9 699:17 701:12 871:15,18,24 872:1,3,4 906:9,
business 742:21 743:9 16
702:10 703:12 704:3 705:3,11
745:10 751:17 761:6 870:13,
706:7 794:10 810:20 811:1,9,
19,22 871:16,18,19 872:18 caught 746:1 750:3,11
13,20 812:2,7,15,17,21 813:4,
873:10,19 874:15 875:3,9
15,21 816:14,22 817:5,19 caused 794:13 800:11
909:15
821:19 824:1 828:18 833:7,15
celebrated 885:5,8
businesses 766:19 848:6 850:7 856:16,18 857:3
861:1 869:22 877:7 879:14,23 cell 694:24 768:8,14,16 805:12
busted 733:18 881:20 888:13,16 890:10 834:7
busy 871:22 891:6,17 899:5,12,14 901:3,11
cellar 716:16
905:6,12 921:7,14,22 922:2
butcher 872:8,15 923:18 925:22 926:2 929:9,16 center 719:22
buy 720:3 722:24 726:3 933:20 937:24 939:12,21
940:13,19 941:3,11,20 942:12
cetera 937:14
743:22 751:1 752:23 842:13
843:10,23 844:7 858:1,5 943:6,12 945:4,9,14 947:13 chainsaw 834:21,24
950:3 951:13,15 952:8
chair 705:7,19 818:4
C capital 826:17
chamber 828:24 861:11
car 693:12,13
cab 801:3 chambers 676:5 688:1
car- 892:19 824:19
Caleb 770:22 772:12
care 754:19 763:22 791:24 chance 686:11 812:13 824:19
caliber 933:12,22 913:17 937:19 938:3,11
call 712:16 716:17 722:24 career 782:12 change 758:11 782:15 799:18
727:3 730:17 742:1 743:19 945:15
750:12 753:11 755:16 761:13 careful 734:17
763:19 768:21 770:21 779:6 Cargill 726:4 changed 780:6 917:6
792:24 829:12 878:11 918:20 Changing 841:4 895:7
919:3,6 938:11 Cargill's 872:10
cargo 721:16,17 722:19 905:2 character 892:16,18
called 692:21 707:8 715:16,
18,20,21 727:12,18 747:19 carpet 719:21 characterize 828:20
756:17 768:18 778:21 795:13, charged 704:5
18 834:4,7,12 835:2 841:19 carried 712:17,18
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: charges..compensated
charges 850:13 Chrisman 828:6 clues 766:10
charity 777:3 Christian 776:12 777:5 782:7 clutter 932:2
798:17,24 946:24
Charlie 789:4,12 791:22 coached 746:22
893:23 Christmas 775:13,14
cocounsel 829:13
chat 828:24 Christopher 928:7 931:10
Code 821:7
cheated 788:22 789:5 Chronicles 948:17,18
codefendant 690:4 810:22
check 697:15,16 church 759:14 771:20,23,24 827:8,19 832:4
772:2 776:22 798:6,8 914:6
Chelsea 783:14 893:17,23 codefendant's 812:19
Cinereski 771:20 772:13
Chelsea's 893:13 codefendants 677:4 811:4
Cinereski's 770:22 818:16 827:6 830:16
Chevy 882:14
Cinereskis 759:9 835:19 coffee 774:13
chevy1971 882:11
Circleville 771:2 coins 718:11
chicken 749:23 750:1,2
844:14,18 845:8,24 circular 918:23 cold 950:9
chickens 845:9 846:1,3 circumstances 828:19 cold-blooded 836:18
831:24
chief 747:23 college 727:23 782:8 786:11,
cite 691:13 13
child 717:24 735:24 738:18
793:7,8 794:15 886:6 907:11 cites 828:10 collided 803:9
913:20,21,24 914:23 922:7
City 796:13 803:1 Colorado 872:14
child's 794:14
civil 826:2 828:10,12 Colt 861:10
childhood 715:9 740:17
claim 698:10 865:22 Columbia 768:13
741:16 804:22 838:16 885:16
922:8 claimed 750:7 806:17 Comic 892:19
children 782:1 784:8,15,24 claiming 806:16 commence 685:24
785:2 786:9,16 787:1,9 803:15
863:1 913:14,16,18
claims 830:15 comment 687:9 824:19
827:19 893:5
children's 782:14 clarification 706:24
committed 770:10
Chillicothe 842:3 843:1 clean 746:17 810:3 812:13
common 739:4,6 903:7
chisel 736:10 clear 688:3 702:2,19 792:3
857:22 899:17 communicate 727:17
chitchat 772:14,15
click 785:13 communication 820:2
chitchatting 772:12
client 677:3 695:11 820:12 communications 820:14,15,
choosing 900:4 821:2 824:24 22,24 821:3,15
chop-shop 718:20 clients 827:15 companies 726:4
Chris 749:19 750:9 751:15,16, cling 790:19 company 720:10 726:3 727:9,
19 766:19 847:6 860:2 876:8 12,18 795:12 870:10 895:13,
878:11 880:4 904:20 909:23
clinic 911:11
17
910:3 923:7,20,22 924:2,6 clinics 910:21
925:13 927:21 928:3,11,12
comparison 690:19
929:2 930:1,12 932:13,20 close 740:5 781:17,20 784:8
compel 691:3
934:5 935:12,19 936:3,9,10 829:3 847:6 894:6 907:21
937:1 938:2 939:10 940:22 compelled 821:9
closer 758:9 907:22
946:1 compelling 691:12
clothes 863:6
Chris's 850:23 878:23 879:11 compensated 748:18 750:21
880:3 930:7,19 931:1 clothing 855:3 942:1
751:3
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: complete..court
complete 700:24 813:17 consuming 790:11,16,23 copy 683:18 818:14 880:22
907:2 791:1
cord 734:10
completely 917:2 consummate 780:21
Corey 789:16,18 790:21
complex 709:7 contact 722:23 816:9 898:18 839:5,23 840:9 841:2
complicit 951:19 container 716:11 corner 709:3
computer 828:11 contend 825:10 828:21 corners 718:12 804:7 825:7
computers 725:11 content 811:21,23 812:3,5,7, cornfield 807:19,20
15 813:7
con 845:7 correct 707:9 708:5 713:15
contents 831:6 870:4 721:10 739:22 851:13,16
conceding 813:22
853:4,5 854:24 855:21 862:13
context 813:19 814:1 821:4,5
conceived 783:8,19 784:2 870:5 881:15 896:1,3,19,22
829:22
897:6 900:24 902:7,16 905:4
concern 790:14 817:10
continue 681:7 698:6 739:7, 907:22 908:19,22 910:1
911:22
14 781:8,9 814:23 836:16 911:12 912:12 913:2 914:8,9,
concerned 680:17 790:7 938:22 12,19 916:6,9 918:8,17,24
807:4,24 808:3 919:14,17,21 920:7,13,17,24
continued 706:11 752:14 922:9 925:19 926:6,23 927:4,7
concerns 792:11,14 911:14 771:12 806:21
930:4 931:8,11,14,19,22
912:5 914:15,22 933:11,21 932:8,14,17,22 934:5,11
continuing 678:23
concession 844:6 935:19 936:16,20 937:5,16
continuous 705:23 939:7 942:3,7 944:7,10,11,13,
conclude 701:10 16,19,20,22 947:5 949:21
contractors 874:11
conclusion 826:15 951:17 952:4
contracts 871:21 873:19,21
concrete 751:8 864:22 869:8, correctly 701:7 742:16
contradict 695:13 817:23
14 930:19
contradicting 699:8 COS 853:9
concussion 737:22,23
contradiction 695:18 cost 748:22 749:3
concussionized 736:3
contradictory 702:7,8,12 counsel 676:8 681:2 683:9,22
conditions 738:14 915:17
contradicts 695:15 700:12 686:24 702:5,21 704:11 705:8
conduct 677:3 738:8 739:11 810:14 814:18
contrary 825:9 816:10,11 817:7,8 818:11
conducting 705:19
contrast 828:5 819:5 820:14 825:16,17 845:3,
confirm 761:4 15 880:9,16 889:3,5,16
control 828:20 898:19,20 899:3,10
confrontational 890:8
conversation 761:17 811:3 counsel's 683:18
confused 846:16 849:7
822:6,19 908:7 920:2 930:23
911:2,23 936:5 counted 724:1,2
931:5 933:24 934:2 945:6
consideration 818:9 country 757:18 800:24
conversations 804:21 818:7
considered 714:5 729:18 917:22 918:1 county 730:1 828:13 838:3
776:15 798:2 832:6 947:2
convict 826:21 couple 697:20 742:22 763:5,
consistent 688:24 697:6,7 13,20 764:21 772:21 789:2
convince 897:20,23 945:12
698:22 821:22,24 799:11,12 814:12 833:20
cookies 777:2 836:24 841:5 887:15 893:10
conspiracy 810:24 811:4,7
cooling 682:2 899:17 928:19 936:7 950:6
Constantly 737:19
cooperate 852:6 courses 906:19,24 907:1
constituted 677:9
cope 838:11 court 676:4,16 677:19 678:22
construction 747:10 680:16 681:2,5,13,18,21
copper 721:14 682:13,22 683:2,7 685:14,23
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: Court's..dead
686:17,19,22 687:4 688:17,19 crimes 677:9 717:24 812:14 858:22 870:7,18,21 871:15
691:8,14 692:16,18 693:8,24 875:16,17 872:17,21 874:2,15,19 875:10
695:3,12 696:16 697:2,8 884:10,21 896:8,21 904:6,9
criminal 826:2 903:8,10,14,18
698:3,13 699:18 700:7,18 906:3 909:22 910:24 915:18
912:1
701:4,7 702:1,11,19 703:4,21 930:10 933:11,21 934:4,14,19
704:5,17,19,23 705:12,14 critical 689:9 825:21 935:17 936:8 937:4,8,18
706:3,6,8 738:7,9,19,24 739:6, 942:6,23 943:17
10,14 781:9 810:13,15 812:8
criticized 799:16 899:19,23
dad's 758:11 762:19 849:17
813:2,10 814:7,11,15,21,22 crock 749:20 868:6
815:16,20 816:16,18,20 817:1,
7,14 818:1 820:21 821:17 cross 678:10 680:4 703:6,11 damage 851:2
822:17 824:8 827:3 830:9,24 807:19,20 826:11 828:14
831:11,13,14,20 833:3,9,11, 950:5 Dana 876:7 925:11 928:6
931:8 932:16
14,16 845:2,4,11,18 849:22 cross-country 895:9
852:13,16 853:19 854:1,6,18 Dana's 876:15 877:15 878:4,
856:7,19 857:4 861:5 869:24 cross-examination 680:19, 20 924:12 925:5 931:22 937:3
880:8,10 881:23 887:13,18,23 20 681:8,9,24 685:24 686:15
939:6
888:2,6,8,21 889:3,6,8,14,19 689:22 705:20 706:4,9,11
890:3,13,24 891:7,12,19 738:12 832:6 833:12 845:12 dark 768:5,7 802:1 803:3
894:22 898:7,23 899:3,7,10 876:16 877:12,13 878:5
cross-examine 818:3
901:7 905:8 911:15,20 912:5 darker 754:5
921:2,5,11,19 922:1 923:10,13 cross-examined 826:19
926:1 929:4,6,12 933:15,18 832:17 date 774:17 775:21 797:24
939:14,16,19 940:16,24 941:7, 798:1 829:3 850:15 855:4
crossed 723:1
15 942:10 943:8 945:2,10 dates 775:10
947:10,12 950:5 951:6,12 cry 790:19 838:23
952:9,12,14 dating 789:20
cult 779:24 780:2
Court's 680:17 683:10 688:1 daughter 748:2 774:6 781:13
cults 779:24 790:9 792:23 793:4,12 837:24
691:4 700:4 819:12 831:20
curiosity 763:17 947:24 838:1,6,23 848:12 850:9
courtroom 684:5 685:19 891:4,10 900:5 927:18
704:14,15 705:13 816:19 curtains 719:16
830:20 833:10 899:9 daughter's 838:6
custody 822:7 838:12 862:17
cousin 794:6 863:1 911:15,20 912:6 913:17, daughters 779:1
20,21
cover 931:7,10,13,16 day 676:22 677:18 704:19
custom 884:15 707:24 709:23 736:6 757:4
covered 699:12 931:12 760:17 772:3,9 774:16 788:24
custom-made 883:12 789:5 792:21 799:13,14,15
covering 735:1
cut 719:21 720:1 721:6 732:11 801:10 802:10,12,15 848:13,
covers 719:18 14 861:9 867:17,20 869:15
cutout 747:11 877:23 927:11,16,17 942:23
cow 733:23
cutters 720:1 725:7 943:20 952:15
cowboys 733:21
day's 774:21
cows 726:1,3,5,7 D day-to-day 727:4
crap 729:2
dad 691:23 695:1 696:8 daylight 801:18
Crawl 721:24
703:22 714:18 715:11 720:23 days 701:13 707:17,20 740:2,
credibility 689:12 690:13 721:9,11 722:17 724:5 734:24 3 757:9 768:5,6 772:1 773:10,
692:6 735:13,16 736:5 737:21 11 777:1 780:19 796:17
747:19 750:14 751:13,19 800:21 801:11,12 841:18,19
creek 807:15,16,21 752:10 754:15,22 755:1 756:7 843:20 844:15 851:12 875:24
creep 779:3 757:24 768:22 779:16 787:22, 907:20 927:3 936:7
23 794:8 797:9,11 826:18
crime 738:15 894:13 843:4 847:6 856:12 857:7,23 dead 763:12 768:4,8 835:8
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: Deadpool..doctor
Deadpool 892:14,16 deliver 873:22 dig 863:21 866:2 926:17,18
deal 677:20 678:19 685:23,24 delivered 943:23 digest 685:8
686:23,24 836:10 897:5,8,12
demanded 951:4 dinner 774:10,11,17 775:10
909:23 947:20,21 949:13
951:8 952:3 demolition 730:1 direct 676:23 695:16,18,22
826:5,11,20 828:18 830:13
dealing 678:19 682:8 denied 811:7,8,9,10,12
848:15 918:21 951:12
812:14,20 850:16
dealings 723:19 766:18
direction 693:22 923:17
deny 678:11 832:14
death 785:21 826:17 838:5
directly 695:13 700:12 702:7
849:1,9,15 949:19 950:2 951:6 department 777:1
864:8 942:22
deceitful 845:10 depending 678:5 687:13
dirt 736:16
802:1
deceived 780:10
disabilities 741:11
depends 694:4 784:14
deceiving 790:5
disassemble 942:16
derby 730:1
December 919:24
disassembled 718:23
describe 744:20 751:2 754:4
decide 678:7,8 683:23 686:6, 942:19,21 943:11
761:12 781:21 839:9 892:12
7,11 897:7 951:7
897:14 948:12 disassembling 718:19
decided 681:21 688:18 942:14
describes 739:4 802:22
733:13,20 747:17 759:19
disaster 716:21
779:17 819:17 852:3 878:18 describing 878:9
896:17 930:24 932:2 disclose 911:24
description 908:5
deciding 680:1 683:20 disclosure 691:1,11
design 865:18 868:8,9,12
decipher 720:4 discovered 834:5
designed 751:13 820:18
decision 700:5 795:9 831:3 discovery 688:15 700:15
852:5 931:5 939:22 940:4
desperately 883:10
839:14
deeded 741:4 detail 761:10 777:12 783:2
discretion 826:13
830:15 851:22
deemed 821:6 827:1 828:14 discuss 685:8 815:23 898:10
details 695:6 696:8 794:12
914:11 952:22,23
deep 827:16 864:24 867:3,5 811:3
discussed 762:22 816:1
deer 850:24 851:2,5,7 detection 714:10
832:9 851:22 878:19 898:12
defendant 676:8,12 704:14, determine 826:14 831:21
discussing 918:14
23 817:8,16 818:13 827:5 897:18
828:7 832:9,16 discussion 884:4 914:1
determined 936:18
932:10
defendants 831:9
determines 920:20
discussions 762:14 769:21
defender 686:3
developed 713:14 773:15,19 912:15,16,19 913:22 917:7
defender's 677:16 682:10
devices 805:15 dispute 824:17
defense 676:24 681:6,7 682:5
diagnosis 738:20 739:1 disregard 890:15
683:9,16 698:18 699:6,9
700:14 702:5,6,21 705:19 dictates 690:9 distance 936:10
706:3 817:24 818:2,11 819:5
825:17 830:10 832:19 833:11, die 852:9 949:6 distinguish 825:22
16 952:9 died 951:7 district 827:3 828:3,6,13
defenseless 784:3 diesel 727:22 882:13 906:22 divided 748:7
delay 679:2,4 difference 826:23 862:4 Dizzy 737:3
deliberation 816:4 differently 777:8,9 938:17 doctor 731:21,23 738:2,23
782:11,15
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: doctrine..essentially
doctrine 822:13 924:3 electrical 732:14,15
document 685:4 826:8 881:6 dry 716:15 electronically 806:23
documents 678:12,13 dryers 725:9 element 738:13
doe 851:9 duces 677:14,17 684:7 elementary 727:10
dog 743:1,22 744:7,13,14 duck 867:16,23 elements 804:9
752:17 753:5
duct 732:8,12 elicit 820:18
dogs 742:3 743:12 744:17,22
dud 785:5,7,13,18 else's 719:10 770:9
745:1 753:6
dude 806:14 email 684:6 700:21 882:9
dollars 721:5 723:18
dudtard 786:5 emergency 895:14,17
doodle 743:24 744:1
dudtards 785:2,3 786:10 emotions 829:7
door 772:22 812:1 831:5
877:3 879:14,16 924:24 due 685:14 838:21 emphasized 946:11
doors 879:13,19,20,21 duffle 863:7 864:11 865:22,23 emptied 860:22
866:7 867:9,13 926:22
doorway 750:10 816:23 empty 860:18
dug 863:16,19 864:11 866:6
doubts 779:9 end 676:22 679:16 686:13
Dupont 771:2 716:1,21 718:19 744:21
downhill 802:7
763:12 815:7,10
Duty 730:17
dozen 735:15 753:8
ended 725:24 772:3,6 773:5
dyeing 944:15,16 945:16
drag 733:23 796:7
drapes 750:3 engaged 912:1
E
dream 916:16 English 728:21 742:11 777:15
dreams 782:5 earlier 711:18 771:19 806:5 enjoy 760:5 820:13
828:11 859:4 863:5 901:12,18
drew 770:18 943:2 enjoyable 759:22
drive 723:2 757:3,7,8,9 759:24 earliest 758:7 enjoyed 731:16 873:16
774:18 802:2,11,14,17 806:9
early 681:10 693:3 715:8 enter 714:11 820:7 824:5
866:15 879:11 910:7 911:5
718:7 740:17 830:8 entered 704:14,15 707:20
driven 720:7
Eastern 862:10 823:14 920:9
driver 729:5 755:8,21,22
easy 853:22 entering 804:6 925:8
757:1,3 796:13 803:15 882:23
eat 737:19 889:12 entire 908:16
driver's 803:11
eating 903:13 entitled 699:10 830:17 831:1,
drivers 755:24 756:14,16
12
800:18 edit 837:21
environment 727:2,3
drives 757:1 edited 837:20
environments 784:18
driving 734:1,3 755:6 757:10, Edward 676:3 683:13,19,22
17 768:10 796:17 801:15 687:24 692:17 705:6,18 episode 777:18,24 778:3
803:10 804:4,14 834:9 850:23 818:15 832:20
870:13 883:4,5,7 895:9 914:11
equate 679:17,23
917:14 924:12,17 effect 705:24 810:19 835:16 equates 822:24
871:1
dropped 750:2 850:14 938:10 error 712:2
effort 771:3,4 932:3
drove 801:7,23 802:3 910:13 erupted 828:2
911:1 939:23 eggs 846:4
essentially 696:2
drug 786:22 787:1 909:23 eighth 727:11 827:3 828:3
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: evade..favorite
evade 714:10 experience 793:24 fairgrounds 842:3,4
event 829:7 842:14,19 expert 695:4 fairs 730:2
events 688:6 793:11 881:18 explain 719:4 727:9 741:5 faith 779:9 914:5 917:16
922:8,12,15 758:14 768:6 769:19 804:2
fake 770:10,14,16 771:6
806:3
eventually 742:24 800:17
fall 709:20
827:16 855:17 explained 679:11 829:22
falling 737:16
Everybody's 783:13 express 816:2 898:13
Fallout 730:20
everyday 829:7 884:15 expressed 888:24 933:11,21
false 922:22 937:13 942:6,15,
evidence 690:10 691:12 expression 818:1 929:15
17 943:4 949:1
811:7 812:11,18 827:7 851:23
extent 698:13,19 719:21
familiar 736:7 841:18
evidently 830:19 731:17 790:6 823:18,21
832:18 841:3 family 716:22 750:18 758:22
Evil 730:17
759:1,24 760:2 762:3,7,8,19
exterior 865:17
ex-sister-in-law 794:4 767:24 775:14,15 776:21
extra 838:16 846:21 780:15 788:11 807:6 838:3,4
ex-wife 847:13
844:18 847:20 850:8 870:15
extras 838:10
exact 794:8 879:11 938:20 883:1 884:4 885:5,8 895:14,17
eye 806:8 897:11 908:17 914:22 918:14
exam 826:11 828:18 946:8
eyes 790:20
examination 676:23 848:15 fan 777:13
899:13 951:14 eyesight 802:4,6,9 803:19
fancy 725:10
examined 826:20 eyesight's 802:7
fans 889:11
excellent 802:9
F farm 711:5 716:9 731:2 741:3
exception 821:16 932:20 742:6 748:6 750:17 753:19,21
excerpts 676:2 face 695:21 735:1 799:1 farmer 729:5
exchange 950:24 824:17
farming 742:1 752:14 786:12
excited 793:19 Facebook 769:8,9,22 773:2
839:1,2,5 858:10 892:9,10 father 689:4,6,23 694:16,17
exculpatory 691:1,11 695:16,19 703:7 711:24 713:8,
facing 826:16 852:2 12,20 714:4 731:20 738:22
excuse 692:10 841:12 744:11,14 784:12,13 789:10
fact 683:17 689:13 699:14
exhibit 710:18 711:1,7,8 714:21 729:11 738:22 783:24 791:21,23 792:21 803:22
713:1,4 753:15 826:9 837:3,18 788:9 799:17 801:23 802:18 804:19 808:4,5 819:19 841:14,
839:13,15,18 840:4,5,14,16 822:6 827:2 831:23 875:9 16 856:1 858:14 883:6,7
841:7 891:23 915:8 918:13,16 920:22 904:17 906:12 908:12,17
911:10 912:21 915:6,8 918:12
exhibits 710:11 833:21 facts 816:6 898:15 923:11 922:19 924:15,19 925:2,9
836:24 841:8 901:5,9 928:11 929:20 935:10 939:24
factual 830:12 832:8
exist 700:7 940:8,20 941:4 949:16,21
fad 742:14
exists 832:3 father's 711:15 717:17
failed 785:16 867:17,20 943:20
exited 816:19
faintly 877:14 fault 681:1 788:7
expect 852:24 862:20
fair 681:20 709:21 731:1,7 favor 686:7
expected 781:3 796:3 750:16 754:23,24 755:24
776:8 790:12 798:3 801:10 favorable 690:11,12
expenses 838:10,13
807:1 815:5 843:19 846:19 favorite 732:9 740:10,11
expensive 795:6 884:17 852:6 871:13 872:8 886:2,17 882:14 889:23 907:11,12,18
908:5 914:21 946:13
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: fear..free
fear 790:24 793:22 918:7 find 685:5 714:16 717:15 fool 729:6
950:2 721:22 728:10 743:22,23
force 781:5 784:1
756:10 768:1 773:3,4 777:9
fears 792:15 793:10,20
795:10 797:6 820:19 831:21 forced 784:1
February 868:18 871:12 832:13 884:15 944:7
forehead 734:15,17 736:21
fed 747:20 finding 689:10 792:12
foresight 830:6
feed 872:13 fine 706:14 738:12 781:11
787:10
forever 697:17
feeding 926:20,24
finish 678:10 680:20 783:20 forge 757:6
feel 691:5 694:7 698:17 699:4 895:5 938:4 forget 715:20 806:16,18
700:23 702:2 728:17 793:16
938:20 948:21
885:15 911:17 933:8 finished 701:15 727:15,21
738:23 forgot 746:6 834:21 882:6
fees 838:10,21
fire 746:1 747:23 750:4,8,12 forgotten 918:23
feet 736:10 737:16 865:2 776:24 827:13 897:3
form 816:2 829:20 898:13
fell 763:10 fired 860:2,5,12,19 861:14 941:2
felt 701:8,9 734:14 780:3 930:3
formal 828:10
783:20 912:10 914:15,17
fires 750:7 908:18
947:7 forsake 948:15
firm 783:23
female 742:22 forward 793:3 822:2 919:10
first-person 730:20 946:20,23 947:14,16,22 951:5
fence 736:17 797:13 842:16
first-trucks 883:17 forwards 792:24 793:11
fervently 805:24
fished 729:16 foster 893:18
fianceé 927:21
fit 701:2 862:11 found 690:16,17 692:14
fiction 730:19
693:21 770:24 777:8 791:4,13
five-hour 815:7
field 733:12 792:5,8 795:12 796:2,10
flag 687:12 825:13 828:7 863:11 884:2
fight 677:23 685:9 800:8
931:22
flame 749:24 750:3
fighting 684:9
foundation 811:11
flash 792:24 793:3,10
fights 800:10
four-wheeler 733:18 734:4
flashback 793:1
figure 680:11 776:8
four-wheelers 729:17
flat 737:1
figured 852:5
fours 825:14
flea 743:22 841:22,24
file 679:9 681:22 684:19
frame 731:6 779:12 871:2
818:14,24 819:24 flew 760:1,2
874:3
filed 682:12 690:23 691:2 floor 719:22
Frankie 689:7,24 694:16,18,
818:10,18,20 822:11 824:9,15
Florida 857:8,19,23 909:1,10 22,23 696:9 703:7,22 875:21
filing 678:1 911:3,4 926:9,12 876:4 927:6,23 928:1 931:16
932:1
filled 721:7,12 749:22 flower 733:15
Frankie's 689:2,7 861:23
filters 858:17,19 859:1 fly 780:17
878:16 924:10,22
final 777:24 828:23 840:15 Flying 741:2,7 868:24
frankly 681:2
finality 828:17 focused 762:13 912:14
fraudulently 729:10
finally 768:21 816:3 919:9 folks 685:13
freaked 806:19
financial 917:4 follow 723:4 910:10
Fred 774:12
financially 838:9 food 716:18 725:11 889:12
free 699:13 731:8 748:24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: Friday..ground
Friday 676:21 700:24 704:20 787:15 820:2 849:12,19 868:8 Goldendoodles 742:24
875:18 915:10 936:23
good 704:17,18 705:14,15,16
friend 726:21 756:5 770:22,24 Gears 730:20 706:13,15,18 711:19 712:10,
834:3 913:12 12,13 772:23 776:12 782:7,20,
general 766:15 911:4
22 785:15 790:17,23 798:17
friends 726:18 727:4 755:23
generally 801:19 842:2,10,11, 803:19 804:14 815:19 843:21
756:1,7,8 759:9 770:24 783:14
12 848:23 866:4 871:19 873:10 876:19
927:21
927:21 948:9
gentlemen 705:15 815:22
front 679:5 693:20 803:4,9
898:10 952:18 good-for-nothing 786:6
805:5,15 886:23 930:19
George 689:11 691:24 692:1, goods 716:15
frozen 874:9
2,6 695:24 704:21 710:23
goose 867:24 868:3,20 869:6,
fuel 719:3,5,11 720:4,9,12 734:3 739:24 760:13 762:17
14 943:18,24
874:15,20 875:11,13 903:24 794:21 796:22 797:16 799:5,6,
8,17 800:15,18 801:23 802:11 government-property 741:4
fueling 874:18
817:15 824:22 829:5 830:15
grab 760:11
full 709:23 720:21 826:16 831:9 834:18 863:20 864:3,7
838:12 870:21 871:14 872:18 875:5 grade 727:11
883:18 884:23 885:9,18 895:8,
fully 746:15 20 896:14 899:19 916:15
graduated 729:8
fund 724:8 917:7,11,15 926:16 934:18 grand 782:21
935:16 936:9,16,24 939:9,23
fundamental 685:12 738:17 940:14 943:3 grandbaby 783:18
fundamentally 684:22 George's 801:21 814:4 824:4 grandchild 907:13,18
Funny 717:22 849:16 885:2,5 895:11 941:22 grandfather 868:4
furniture 725:10 Georgia 742:18 grandfather's 868:14,17
get-go 935:21 869:9 917:1 943:21
furtherance 810:23 811:6
gift 884:2 885:6,9,14 grandmother 741:7 748:6,13
future 724:8,9,10 782:2,3
768:22 919:13 927:19,20
891:3,10 910:1 Gilley 789:4,12 928:4 947:1
Gilley's 893:13 grandmother's 740:24
G
Gilleys 836:2 grandparents 748:14
gained 690:6 ginned 684:20 grant 686:2 832:19,21
game 779:20 girl 762:2 773:22 791:9,14 granted 697:24 735:19 771:5
gamer 731:5 792:9,13,22 793:14,17 913:8 787:4 846:4
gamer's 731:6 give 678:16 680:11 697:23 granting 833:3

717:6 728:7 766:9 808:11
games 730:5,7,10,13,22 831:15 838:15 848:4 850:4 grants 686:19
731:12 863:1 894:2 grappling 732:19 733:1,19
gaming 731:11 giving 912:10 916:16 734:10,14
garage 746:21 747:1 glad 830:6 872:16 great 851:22 859:7
Gary 924:2,6 928:12 930:1 Glock 928:12 929:21 930:1 green 804:16
gas 719:23 874:19 God 735:4 762:4 779:10,11 Greg 824:13
gash 734:19 803:14 912:10 917:15,17 Gregory 818:12

928:19 947:7
gate 938:7 grew 715:5 726:14 783:6
Gofundme 837:8 917:20
gathering 926:24
gold 721:1 904:6 ground 715:13 720:9 736:20,
gave 677:19 707:8 711:24 22 737:2 865:24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: group..history
group 741:8,10 756:13,15 handing 881:4 817:9 832:8,11 920:16
769:21
handle 680:4 702:23 heard 685:19 689:8,18 695:19
grow 749:9 751:10,15,24 701:8 758:22 885:20 929:18
hands 685:15 735:1,3
766:19 782:6,11,18 923:20,23 940:16
930:7 hang 801:6
hearing 678:23 679:1,2,3
growing 726:19 729:14 hanging 790:8 844:2 681:6 703:4 704:12 738:10
731:19 751:17 803:22 805:18 739:12 810:16 814:19 827:8,
882:17 903:4 946:13
Hanna 761:16 771:7 782:24 23 845:5,16 880:11,17 889:7,
783:5 791:3 794:2 838:1,2,8
17
grows 908:21 839:5,23 840:9 841:2 876:7
911:17 912:24 915:9 925:11 hearsay 810:18 813:9 854:16
guarantee 687:18 830:4
927:6,23 928:5 931:13 934:15
heatstroke 735:24 737:20,23
guaranteed 733:19 801:12
Hanna's 878:3,6 738:5 739:18,19
guard 917:24
Hannah 928:1 931:16 932:1 heatstrokes 738:13
guess 716:16 728:16 736:22
happen 685:13 790:17 792:16 heavy 736:19 757:20 869:3,6
747:19 758:16,19,20 770:21
847:2 896:18 909:9 915:12
777:12 790:2,16 791:1,18 heck 778:15
916:1 918:11
792:2 793:3 880:4 927:19
heels 682:3
935:15,23 947:23 952:16 happened 677:8 685:4,21
690:6 691:23 696:14 715:22 held 708:18 723:21 787:23
guilt 689:10
723:8,11 733:2 736:4 739:1 792:23 842:1,2,24 861:10
guilty 677:9 707:21 919:14 745:22 765:20 773:6 784:5 887:5
947:2 951:24 787:5 790:13 815:4 822:23
hell 799:10,18 886:7,8,13
823:6 835:11 846:8 864:10
guitar 891:16 917:11
878:12,15,19 879:1,2 883:1
gun 695:20 714:10 750:5 900:13 901:14 902:14,20 helped 749:8 863:21 864:12
785:12 807:14 810:7 843:23 915:16,24 922:7,8 941:21 922:21 926:18
860:18,22 861:24 863:10 944:3 947:17
helpful 695:11
guns 843:15,19 844:3 862:2,7, happening 793:8,11 889:8
helping 736:5 751:20
8 896:12
happy 815:13 838:16 897:6
Heritage 742:5
gunsmithing 729:22
hard 751:4 761:19 797:15
Hero 887:9,11
guy 695:20 934:18,19 935:9 866:23
hardship 795:4 hey 717:16 760:11 844:7
guys 680:11 871:18 873:13
880:3 909:14 912:15 913:23
hardwired 804:22 hiding 696:6 780:4 804:10
914:11
hate 838:23 high 727:15 733:10 797:5
907:3
H hauled 871:24 872:2,4,10,13
high-powered 862:9
hauling 870:14
habit 769:8 higher 796:11 797:18
Hazel 694:22,23 696:9 876:4
habits 804:14 927:6,23 928:2 931:16
hill 714:21 715:6 716:9
724:21,22 726:15 729:15
hair 944:16 945:17 Hazel's 932:1 730:11 741:2,22,24 744:18
half 681:12 735:15 737:5 745:13 748:8,9 751:6,21
head 726:10 732:19 733:1
796:7 838:7 894:4 752:20 755:4,5 807:22 857:7,
734:19 735:8 737:21 791:13
14 931:1 937:14
Halo 730:17 932:11 933:2 934:5 948:21
hindered 875:14
hand 688:16 700:3 828:16 heading 767:24 916:17
880:13,22 901:2 hiring 795:20
health 847:17
handed 900:18 history 728:22 778:5 917:4
hear 683:20,24 685:20 689:5
706:23 756:19 798:22 805:16
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: hit..inconsistencies
hit 732:18 733:1 737:21 860:3 hooked 734:6
936:11 I
hope 782:11 822:10 949:14
Hitman 730:21
hoped 914:4 ice 774:22
hobbies 729:15
hopes 782:4 891:9 idea 703:22 713:9 750:13
hobby 729:18,19,20 742:1,6 766:20 775:6 837:9,11 853:10
hoping 951:1
752:14 862:18 868:6 875:12 910:19
horrific 838:21 917:1,2 929:20 943:18
hockey 736:13
Horse 768:18,20 ideal 777:5
hog 942:2
hose 719:9 720:2 ideas 792:15
hogs 753:9 872:2,4
hosed 750:6 identification 711:9 713:2
hold 745:24 788:13 865:4,7
905:14,17 906:1 927:11 hospital 715:3 735:7,9,10 837:4 839:16 840:6,17 841:9
891:24
holding 762:16 hot 725:13
identified 691:5 859:3 862:18
hole 719:21 863:16,19,21 hotel 718:12 779:15
864:11 866:2,6,12 926:17,22 identifying 830:14
hotels 718:10
holster 892:5,13 893:3 ignore 779:5
hour 681:11 682:8,15 686:1
holsters 844:4 687:13 692:22 709:23 894:4 illegal 758:2 804:13 911:16
home 721:7 723:3,13,20 hours 695:7 699:10 702:14 Illinois 725:23 727:19
733:23 740:12,24 741:8,10 710:1 757:4,5 774:15 801:10, image 787:14 840:12,19
749:18 755:2 770:7 790:20 14,19 808:22 809:15,18
796:13 801:13 806:20 824:5 813:24 838:16 900:11 images 839:4,8 840:22
834:15,16 838:18 857:13 imagine 905:14
864:7 873:8 924:18 936:24
house 689:2 714:11 730:10
734:23 737:4,6 745:18 746:1, imitate 756:8
943:3 952:17
16,23 747:4,6,7,10,18 748:18,
homes 823:14 19,20 749:2,9 750:10 751:4,7 immediately 792:12 899:18
753:23 783:22 806:9,15 impact 734:22,23 738:21
homeschooled 727:5,8
855:12 867:16 868:3 880:3,4
homeschooling 727:18,24 893:13,14,22 905:19 917:1,3 impeachment 691:1,11
906:23 907:5 924:13,17,22 925:6,16 929:18 812:24 813:14,17
930:12 931:22 937:4 938:2 implied 685:3 829:12,14
homicides 761:17 769:22
939:6 943:18
771:9,10,13 818:17 823:10 imply 831:23
918:3 919:9 922:12 927:4 houses 726:4
936:8,19 944:3,19 important 700:8 820:4 948:6
howdy 773:12
honest 684:11 916:12 946:8 impression 679:7
Huh-uh 869:12
Honestly 876:14 incarcerated 887:16 890:18,
hundred 721:5 723:18 21
honor 679:6 691:15 692:5
hunted 729:16 inches 867:4
697:11 705:11 706:7 730:19
738:6 739:15 786:14 810:11 hunting 806:19 incident 693:18
816:14,22,24 817:6 819:11
821:19 824:12 831:19 833:7,
hurried 763:21 incidents 695:5
13,15,18 844:21 848:5,6 hurt 803:12,16 include 745:1 850:9
853:17 856:16 857:3 861:1
869:22 881:20 888:13 890:10 hurting 793:4 included 826:7
894:21 898:22 899:5,12 husband 782:20 including 812:12 816:10
940:11,13 950:4 951:13
855:9 898:19
hook 732:19 733:1,19 734:10, inconsistencies 696:4
14
703:11,19 831:14
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: inconsistency..January
inconsistency 691:6 insurance 733:9 751:1 involving 819:14
908:19
inconsistent 688:20 690:8,19 irrational 758:17
691:20 692:7 694:2,3,6,9,11, intelligently 679:12
Irrelevant 945:8
12,13 695:10 697:3 698:8,10,
intend 887:16
15 812:16 830:17,22 831:2 irritable 758:15
intentional 908:18
incorrect 879:9 Ish 909:19
intentionally 933:1
Indiana 725:23 isolated 726:15
interact 775:11,13
Indians 733:21 Israel 948:19
interacting 829:17
individuals 822:4 932:19,24 issue 677:23 678:18,20 680:4,
951:17 interaction 825:16 829:6 12,15,23 682:4,14 683:14,21
684:8 685:23 686:13 687:1,20
influence 786:20 interest 684:12 700:13 825:5
688:18 697:5 700:8 702:24
888:24
influenced 731:14 817:21 824:18,20 830:5
interested 702:5
influencing 731:18 issued 819:13 820:6
interfere 829:19
inform 687:16 893:17 issues 681:15 817:2,10
interior 865:21 847:17
information 678:9 690:7,10
692:8,11 694:9 698:8,16,17 intern 735:7,11,16 items 842:16 843:8,9,13
699:5 700:10 702:3 729:10 858:21 863:6
interpreted 825:12
766:10 769:13 911:18 915:23
IV 704:22 817:15
916:11 interrogated 809:22
informed 692:23 768:22 interrogation 808:19,21,24 J
932:15 809:13,15
initial 732:24 773:17 865:12 interrupt 722:4 895:18 jacob 676:3 681:8,16 683:13,
initially 692:1 788:20 900:12 interview 677:14 688:22 19,22 686:23 687:24 692:17
943:19 945:13 947:4,20,22 689:17 694:5 697:4,14,24 694:14 704:15 705:6,18 818:6
698:7 811:22 813:7 815:8,10 832:20
initiate 773:18
818:15 819:14 901:13,18 Jacob's 703:7
injured 732:11 902:12,24
jail 708:18,19,22,24 709:2
inmates 853:10 interviewed 693:3,6,10,14 887:5,21 888:5
808:8 811:19
innocence 794:14 Jake 676:22 677:6,14 678:9,
interviewing 696:18 11,23 679:10,18 680:8,10
inquire 822:17 949:1,3
interviews 689:15 693:8 684:23 686:15 687:17 688:5,
inquired 688:12 19,23 689:1,11,15,19 690:18
698:14,24 702:2 795:19 796:2
inside 719:15 720:5 721:1 808:7 809:9 855:22 697:1,24 701:13,15,20 706:13
865:3,10 876:16 878:24 810:1,3 815:3 818:6 819:16
introduced 742:17 773:22 820:5,17 821:22 822:12,19,21
929:18 930:11
775:5 825:4,7 826:3 828:18 829:1,6
insistent 797:20,21 830:7 833:20 845:21 846:10
invented 785:1
848:12 852:9 853:23 854:22
inspection 831:13,16
invited 759:18 885:19 887:8 893:10 921:3
inspired 755:21,22 940:14 950:9
involve 687:7 691:24 894:11
installed 855:15 897:10 Jake's 684:12 689:9 690:12
692:6 697:18 819:22
instance 739:17 involved 761:15 818:19
827:22 912:16,18 James 730:21
instant 933:10
involvement 818:16 819:18 January 691:2 868:18 871:11
instantly 804:7
822:3 823:10,17,19,22 824:3, 909:17 920:7
instructed 934:4 4,5 832:10
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: Januaryish..laundry
Januaryish 920:4 704:13 705:9,12,13,16 738:10 knew 723:9,11,13 761:15
739:12 810:16 814:19 816:17, 766:9,18 767:16 770:3 778:17
Japan 777:14
19 817:10 832:23 833:6,9,10 789:18 791:10 793:24 825:2
jars 724:15 845:5,16 880:11,17 889:7,17 835:10 847:15,17 852:2
890:14 898:10 899:4,9 952:18 908:18,22 912:1 920:22 921:4
Jason 899:8 936:10 944:9
jury's 817:22
jealous 789:22 790:3,4,6 knowing 679:24 698:23 726:1
841:2
K knowingly 679:12
Jefferson 828:13
knowledge 739:4,6 766:17
Jesus 949:9 Kansas 796:13 872:13 856:6 910:3,21
jigsaw 846:21 keeping 770:6 806:8 Kylee 789:6,10 893:12,18,24
job 703:12,13 755:2 761:4 kennel 742:4,7,8,9,11 894:8,10
771:17 786:12 794:18,22,24
Kenneth 900:22 Kylee's 858:14
795:10,15,17,21 796:2,11,23
797:5,18 801:1 873:15 916:5 Kenneth's 879:1,2,4 882:7
901:13 902:11 924:17 925:16 L
jobs 741:20 755:6 763:9
939:24
John 676:7 704:24 706:15 label 800:6
Kentucky 725:22 747:12
Jonah 948:14 883:2 911:11 labor 749:6
Josey 913:4,6,7 914:2 keys 878:24 879:13,22 Labradoddle 742:14 744:14
Josh 770:17 923:19,22 937:1
Labradoodles 742:17,23
joy 793:16,20 kidnaped 713:24
Labs 742:23
Judah 948:20 kill 872:11 876:10 915:9
ladies 705:15 815:21 898:9
918:17 950:14
judge 676:6,19,21 682:17 952:18
683:11 684:1 685:22 688:2 killed 776:10 802:17 894:9
lady 845:24
696:3 700:17 704:10 705:10 918:15 951:16
706:5 781:7 812:10 815:1,18 laid 737:1 794:17,19,21
killer 836:18 950:9
817:11 824:15 830:11 832:24 lake 868:23 869:4,16
833:8 844:24 845:6 848:8 kind 681:14 700:16 701:2
889:10 893:8 898:4,5 901:5 715:21 716:12,15 718:20 land 763:16
921:1,10,18,24 923:9 925:21 719:18 722:1 725:10 728:15
729:15,24 733:8 743:1 745:10
Lansing 727:18
929:3,11 933:14 937:22
939:15 940:23 941:13 943:5 749:22 755:7,20 759:4,8 lap 701:23
945:1,7 947:9 949:11,12 951:6 763:17 769:16 770:6 771:6,7
773:1,14 774:3,14 776:7 778:9 large 721:15 723:1,15 751:10
952:10 851:7
779:19,21 787:4 790:22
judge's 676:5 793:17 797:12 806:9 826:24 largely 689:11
July 689:21 690:1,24 696:19, 827:15 846:20 858:1,6 877:2,3
887:4 900:18 903:7 larger 720:6
24 697:7,9 708:15 710:7
kindness 685:14 lasso 733:22
Julyish 707:24 710:6
kinds 784:6 787:6 793:8 lassoed 734:5,6
jumped 879:17
910:24 928:17 lasted 808:22
June 867:18,20,21,22
kings 948:16,19,23 late 677:11,12 687:16 748:2
junk 676:8 693:17,23 705:2 777:20 783:18 801:13 808:13
720:22 721:8 816:23 817:18 Kirk 818:19
891:5,11,13,18 Kissing 840:11 late-night 777:15
jurors 816:20 817:1 kitchen 689:4,6 695:17,20 latitude 845:11
jury 679:5 680:14 682:2,4 696:1 711:5 713:11 750:10 laundry 718:13
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: law..love
law 816:6 822:13 825:9 826:1 lies 836:16 location 726:8 842:15 930:4
898:15 941:22
life 714:22 782:23 850:18
lawyer 827:24 879:5 882:2 852:22 853:23 950:19,22,24 locations 715:8 872:14
951:2 908:10 931:2
lawyer's 881:14,15
lifestyle 780:6 786:10 798:23 lock 711:13,14,23 712:5,23
lawyers 677:2,7,13 819:1
799:24 800:1 714:12 720:1 721:6 722:10
824:22 827:11,20 829:1
725:6 880:3
830:15,18,23 831:8 836:8 lifestyles 784:19,21
851:15,18 lock-pick 713:13,17
light 775:13 802:1 804:16,17
lay 811:11 842:16 846:3 877:14,16 878:1,5,6 locked 790:21 878:23 879:12,
17,18,20,21
laying 733:12 lights 877:12,13
locks 711:20 712:11
leading 905:5 922:13 939:15, Likewise 841:15
17,20 940:10 941:1 942:8,10 logbooks 757:7
limine 818:2,8,22 832:15
947:11
logical 888:19
limit 820:1
learn 711:22 756:10 776:17
logically 717:22 888:12,17
limited 813:5,6
learned 745:10 755:8 769:13
long 679:3 681:4 687:22
792:21 793:13 limits 721:16 757:6 910:8,14
697:14 709:22 724:14 736:9,
leave 682:2 772:16 838:18 lines 778:22 782:10 798:10 10,23 740:23 763:2 775:18
873:24 929:14 938:15,18 813:24 846:14,15 867:13
leaving 797:17
870:24 871:2 894:2,5 900:9
lineup 700:23
led 677:9 947:20 911:1 944:3
lingo 756:23 longer 912:24
left 687:24 689:6 695:19
749:24 777:21 779:9 780:15 link 722:23 looked 694:23 743:23 803:5
787:14 803:5 861:23 866:18
list 743:20 744:8 778:8 838:24 929:14
879:4 885:15 914:7 940:14
942:6 listen 804:20 805:8 816:7 lookout 718:18 719:6 805:21
898:16 904:3
legal 757:2 910:8,14
listening 804:20 805:1,3 loop 774:18
legitimate 755:2
917:21
loose 702:20
legitimately 755:18
lists 818:19 Lord 949:4
length 900:8
litigation 827:6 lose 873:21
lesson 728:4
litter 744:7,10 losing 873:19
levels 822:3
live 759:11 761:5 762:1 795:7 loss 838:11 910:21 911:11
liar 703:17 777:6 836:21 913:23
lost 874:11
liars 874:12 lived 714:21 731:2 745:13
755:5 771:1 776:20 857:6 lot 728:21 731:8,11 747:14
liberty 829:17
905:21 951:7 748:24 749:6 753:9,12 754:7,
licensed 882:22 13,14 755:23 757:20 765:24
lives 838:22 769:24 774:12,13,14 779:13
lickety-split 684:21 786:22 796:20,23 799:9,16
living 689:4 798:23 913:1
lid 719:24 918:8 829:7,8 842:14 844:1 850:17
871:13 903:3,8,17 922:6
lie 811:2 813:5 858:14 859:13 load 720:16 725:16 726:7 945:19
874:4,10
lied 766:21 767:11 777:10 lots 782:20,21 872:13
811:17 812:20,21,22 813:3,12, loads 722:6,18 757:20
18,23 814:16 815:3 835:16,18, loud 901:24
loans 916:8,12 917:4
22,24 836:2,4,6,8,10,13 919:8
love 778:9 781:16,19 783:5
locate 714:13 785:21
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: loved..Miranda
loved 873:17 934:15 manner 680:6 members 838:4
lower 759:21 779:14 809:2 Mansion 747:12 memories 841:1 846:18
Lucasville 727:23 759:13 marijuana 749:9 751:10,16, memory 734:11 738:16 758:7
834:10 842:2,24 24 908:21 846:10,12,20 876:19 877:1,17
881:1,10 882:1 895:5 906:2
luck 690:17 marked 710:14,17 711:8
922:5
713:1 826:9 837:4 839:15,18
lucked 699:23
840:5,16 841:9 891:22,23 mental 786:1 847:17
Luckily 692:14
market 743:19 841:22,24 mentally-retarded 740:24
lunch 680:13 682:8,14 686:1
markets 743:22 mention 691:9 752:4 906:16
687:2 814:8 815:19,20
marriage 741:17 777:7 mentioned 683:10 696:24
lunchtime 681:12
780:21 697:1 707:23 717:11 774:16
lying 950:16 809:10 848:15 904:24 905:4,
married 776:4,5 780:11
10
marry 775:7 778:13 783:9
M mercy 948:15 951:5
Marvel 892:16
message 773:5,7,8
machines 718:8,11 mask 923:1
met 771:20 772:17 775:20,22
mad 788:2,3 masks 855:9 789:19,20 847:9
made 686:8 692:17,20,21,24 Mason 724:15 metal 721:13 722:1 749:21
693:12 696:17 700:5 702:19 869:3,7
703:6 765:1 770:10 771:1 material 686:16 690:9 691:1,
786:5 818:8 819:1 820:9 3,13 703:15 831:4 method 903:11
834:16 855:23 857:18 864:16 materials 748:23,24 749:5 methods 910:17
874:12 940:4 947:14,15,19,22
math 729:2 Mexico 722:20,21 905:2
Mae 931:13
matter 676:17 687:6 707:20 Meyer's 774:12
magazine 861:10 862:11 783:24 788:9 804:23 812:17,
Meyers 677:13,15 679:7
Mahan 948:24 21 813:15 814:5,24 825:15
680:3 683:11 684:1 687:3,7,9
941:18
mail 727:16 818:12,18 822:18 824:8,11,13,
matters 848:7 14 881:15 900:19
mail-in 727:11
Matthews 949:8 middle 726:6 753:24
maintained 909:11
Mcway 818:20 mile 737:6
majority 740:14
Meaning 882:6 military 794:11
make 681:11,13 687:9 694:20
701:18 702:17 703:16,18 means 714:12 780:22 786:6 mill 908:9,10
729:8 741:5 743:4 760:10 meant 828:22 mind 684:19 687:8 790:12
775:8 787:18,20,24 796:18,19 800:5 876:12 889:11,15
801:14 808:6 829:11 831:3 mechanic 729:4 894:17 917:2
847:5 859:23 865:13,15 866:5 Medal 730:19
874:10 875:13 883:12 885:15, minds 782:14
18 897:6 912:3 932:21 media 681:3 mine 792:1 834:3 917:18
makes 933:8 medical 738:14 Minford 759:11 913:12
making 733:15 779:1 827:19 meet 691:17 772:19 821:16 minute 728:1 745:16 752:10
833:1 873:13 875:14 914:18 874:3 891:3 949:9
889:4
934:22
meeting 709:22 891:9 909:23 minutes 772:12 817:4 898:21
man 782:20 789:15 meetings 708:17 Miranda 893:13,23
Manleys 835:24 member 807:6
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: Miranda's..nervous
Miranda's 894:14 796:18,19,20,24 837:15 moved 718:14 759:16 760:17
873:13 875:13,15 905:14,15, 765:1 771:16 842:3 924:2
miscellaneous 721:8
24 908:19 910:4
movies 775:11
miscommunication 796:6
monitored 806:4,7
moving 762:8 914:2 924:7
missed 879:5 881:17 882:5
monitoring 858:9
900:20 multi 827:5
monkey 684:15
mission 777:3 multiple 769:23 770:5 854:17
monkey's 685:9
missionaries 776:21 murder 809:7 827:5 863:7
Montana 693:5 808:18 809:1,
Mississippi 742:20 murdered 762:3 838:4
13 811:19 815:3 855:24
Missouri 779:16 780:15 murders 760:24 762:8 765:12
month 709:12 726:24 740:1
794:16 795:15,16,22 797:2,8, 766:5 767:11 770:12 797:23
748:1 755:15 883:21 919:16
9,12 916:6,16,21 798:2 805:20 806:13 807:12
months 709:18 755:12,15 808:9,10 850:24 854:23 855:4,
misspoke 868:3
776:3,5 943:1 944:4 20 858:11 861:15 871:7,9,10,
mistaken 775:24 864:4 14 882:10 893:11 894:5,8
Mooney 677:15 683:12 687:7
869:17 913:19 921:20 941:8 909:21
830:1
misunderstanding 785:11 mushrooms 714:16
moot 688:18 697:5
mock 917:15 mutt 744:15
morning 676:15 677:18,21
mocked 917:17,18 678:4 680:10 688:10,11
701:24 704:17,18 705:14,15 N
model 882:14 706:13 772:6,23 803:2 830:8
modify 687:15 701:1 875:18 952:20 named 789:15 827:22
mold 747:14 mother 733:13 739:20,21 Nash 676:8 687:6 688:2
741:13 744:9,11 768:24 769:7 691:10 692:5 695:15 696:11,
molestation 914:19 776:8,10 784:11,12 794:7,9 21 697:21 698:12 699:22
molested 863:3 797:9 805:20 808:3 819:19 700:17 701:21 702:16 703:3
893:12 904:17 906:12,18 704:10,24 706:16 810:19
molesting 793:7 907:1,12,21 908:8,12,17 911:9 811:18,24 812:5,16,24 813:13
mom 727:5 728:3,14,23 912:21 915:2 916:21 917:7 814:5 817:18 819:7,11 823:2
737:20 740:10,12 744:17 920:23 923:4 927:18 934:10 825:6,19 830:13 832:24 901:5,
745:18 752:12 762:19 770:6 936:15 949:15,20 8 905:5
775:15 783:1,18 787:23 mother's 823:18 824:3
794:24 797:12 806:19 826:18
natural 714:15
837:11 850:13 921:9
838:5 843:4 857:7,23 858:9 naturally 778:13
885:13,17 896:10 916:23 mothers 894:9
nature 940:11
mom's 750:13,24 849:16 motion 678:2 679:9 681:13,22
682:10 684:20,21 685:5 necessarily 686:18,20
moment 732:24 781:14 686:20,24 690:23,24 691:2,8 859:14 897:13 909:20
793:13,15 806:20 837:7 870:9 818:10,20 819:2,3 822:11
898:3 914:17 927:16 935:11 neck 735:17 932:16
824:9,16 825:3 832:21 833:3
moments 683:3 893:8 needed 712:22 724:18 731:24
motions 691:7,13 732:2 744:8 771:14 783:20
mommy 838:11,22 motocross 733:9 827:17 918:15 938:21
Monday 678:4 681:23 687:16 Mount 775:2 negotiate 826:7
688:10,11 689:16 696:20,22
701:14,19,23 705:22 830:8 mouth 890:8,12 negotiated 949:14
952:20 move 720:5,11 726:12 739:8 nephew 711:2 748:1 850:9
money 723:21,24 724:1,2,11, 760:12 762:15,20 794:20 927:19
13,14,17,20 743:4 745:19 845:14 854:21 865:23 866:1 nervous 928:14
747:18 751:1 782:17 795:3
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: Network..opposed
Network 777:15 numerous 689:14 745:14 officer 949:11
830:19
Newcomb 819:16 904:20 officially 684:18
nursery 776:23
news 763:6 770:4 offing 687:21
nice 748:20 749:2 Ohio 676:11 677:16 683:10
O
704:21 705:1,5 760:18 761:8
nickname 800:12 887:4
763:21 764:3,8 778:20 780:5
night 685:16 726:6 777:10,19, oak 864:16 796:11,23 797:4,17 800:18
20,23 780:20,23 784:2 796:14 oath 689:19 705:22,23,24 817:15 821:7,18 824:23
802:3,10,14,17 806:16 850:23 825:21 826:13 827:4 829:14
854:23 855:4 861:15 862:20 object 810:12 811:2 813:23 838:3 897:6,24 913:1,13
875:17 896:21 909:23 910:4 844:21 848:6 853:18,24 854:5 914:2,7 916:5,17 950:22 951:8
922:12 923:1 933:12 935:16, 881:19,20 890:2 901:8
oil 749:22,23 750:6 858:17,18
23 939:7,13 942:20 945:20,22 objected 679:15,22 821:22 859:1
night/day 826:23 objection 814:14,22 815:15 Oklahoma 803:1
nights 806:13 845:19 848:5 852:12 853:20
854:16,19 856:5,16,17,20 ol 734:5,15,19
nighttime 801:21 857:2,3 861:1,6 869:22 870:1 older 777:13 783:21,22
ninth 727:11 887:12,13,17,22 888:6,9,13,22 883:20,23
889:2,14 890:4,10,19 891:1,5,
NNN-1 859:4 860:3,14 6,11,17,18 894:22 905:5,9 olive 749:23
921:1,6,10,18,24 923:9 omissions 696:4
Noels 780:8
925:21,24 929:3,5,11 933:14
Noels' 779:1 937:22 939:11,20 940:10,23 omit 696:4
941:5,13,17 942:8,11 943:5,9 on-duty 757:5
noise 761:8
945:1,3,7,11 947:9,11 952:13
non-jury 817:2 online 743:6
Objection's 889:19
non-privileged 821:4,5 oodle 743:1
obligation 692:10 703:14
nonetheless 778:18 open 716:13 720:1 725:7
observant 803:23 804:1 749:24 771:7 774:22 793:18
noon 681:10,11 687:1,13 806:23 811:22,24 843:3 866:14 877:4
703:1
observation 776:18 938:7
normal 757:2 781:2 786:3
observe 804:4 948:15 open-ended 829:18
876:14
obtained 700:19 opened 831:5 877:3
note 820:4 921:24
obvious 684:22 702:9 opening 735:3 924:24
notes 677:14,17 678:5 679:8
680:7 681:19 683:18 686:4 occasion 724:3 738:4 operate 825:8 828:4
698:24 700:2,7 818:15 819:14,
occasionally 798:9 operated 733:8
20 820:1,11 821:12,13 831:2,
11 833:1 occasions 830:19 874:1,8 operates 825:17
notice 820:2 occurred 689:16 811:22 operation 744:19,20 829:16
870:15,24
noting 924:1 October 676:1 704:20 775:20,
22 885:2 opinion 799:23 816:3 898:13
November 700:20 829:2
885:3 offend 784:24 785:19 opinions 770:4 798:16,20
now's 762:12 810:3 offer 848:23 opportunities 761:5
number 690:24 691:8,10,12 offered 813:13 938:21 opportunity 826:6
704:22 817:16 818:17 842:14
offers 848:23 oppose 821:19
843:21 891:23
office 677:17 682:10 opposed 680:8
numbers 902:6 948:9
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: opposes..peeled
opposes 819:5 pain 732:4 734:21 911:6 parole 850:15
ops 766:19 painful 734:20 part 679:18 686:8 702:17
708:19,22 713:18 715:7,13
opted 688:5 painless 933:7,9
716:3 717:11 718:6 721:10,11,
option 701:22 pair 719:24 776:20 923:3 21 722:7,8 725:12,15 728:22
747:14 750:17 751:14 752:22
optionable 850:14 paper 684:4 901:15 753:4 756:16 759:21 761:21
order 687:15 690:21 701:22 papers 862:17 901:4 762:20 764:20 772:7 779:24
727:11 761:24 784:8 811:21 790:16 812:14 821:1 833:1
parable 949:9 852:7 864:17 875:12 886:7
818:2,22 832:15 890:14
908:19 parade 775:14 896:15 901:13,18 902:11
908:4,6 922:17 923:21 930:23
ordered 685:16 687:22 paragraph 826:10 931:4 934:7 936:3 946:9
original 689:3 896:16 parallels 825:23 949:13
originally 759:15 869:2,6 paranoid 807:1 Partially 716:12

936:2 participants 816:9 898:18
paraphrasing 932:5
out-of-state 700:19 participate 723:6 927:1
parent 753:2,4 787:18
outdoor 752:2 participated 722:5 749:11,12
parenting 787:11,15
outdoors 731:2 776:21 863:20
parents 733:10 760:9,16
outer 864:21 865:7 762:3 784:9 786:23 788:14 parties 816:10 898:19
886:10 893:18 partly 895:5
outing 883:2
parents' 762:18 parts 732:22 814:3 819:24
outings 776:22
park 774:12 879:11 859:24 889:21
outlandish 769:24
Parker 676:7,14,19 680:18 party 687:11 820:16 825:24
outlined 684:8 824:16 826:1,5 857:20
681:20 682:7,16,20 685:22
outlining 733:12 696:3 703:10,18 704:2,9,18,24 pass 743:24 824:21 829:10
705:10 706:5,10,12,15 710:14, 908:10
overbreadth 684:10
16 711:11 713:3 738:16,21
overbroad 819:23 739:3,8,15,16 781:7,11,12 passage 948:18
810:23 811:6,10 812:10,20,22 passed 941:21
overcome 790:24 813:19 814:9,12,17 815:1,2,18
overflow 750:1 816:15 817:11,17 819:6 passenger 803:9
821:22 830:11 833:8,13,18,19
overly 895:21 899:20 passes 779:2
837:2,5 839:14,17 840:7,18
overrule 845:18 852:16 861:5 841:10 844:23 845:6,13,20 past 708:5 757:6 793:24
869:24 888:21,22 894:22 848:8,10 852:20 853:21 854:2, 924:12,17
905:8 933:18 943:8 945:10 7,20 856:8,21 857:5 861:3,8
Pastor 887:8,9,11
870:3 880:15,19 881:24
overruled 815:16 921:11,19 887:14,19,24 888:3,10,15,18, pastored 759:14
922:1 923:13 926:1 929:6,12 23 889:10,15,20 890:6,17,20
941:7 pat 808:7
891:2,8,14,20 892:1 893:7,9
894:24 898:3,22 899:6 902:12 pay 796:4,6 804:8,9 844:10
P 921:1,3,10,18,24 923:9,11
925:21,24 926:20 928:10
paying 796:11 797:5,18
803:19 875:11
929:3,5,11,17 933:14,16 934:7
pack 765:23 766:1
937:11,22 939:11,15,17 peas 908:4
packing 765:7,17,22 940:10,14,23 941:5,13 942:8
943:5 945:1,7,19 947:9,11 pedophile-type 779:3
pages 685:15 702:14,16
950:6,8 951:10 952:10 peeked 877:4
769:22 881:4 902:5,6
parking 774:12,13,14 peeled 734:18
paid 796:23 884:18 916:5
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: peer..pod
peer 787:6 personally 718:17 719:5 pig 754:7
720:18 769:14 951:16
penalty 849:1,9,15 pigs 742:5 753:9,11,12 754:2,
personnel 816:18 10
penetrate 933:13,22
persons 873:2 Pike 838:3
Pennsylvania 872:10
pertained 756:20 pill 857:7,18,22 908:9 911:6
pension 724:6,7
926:8,12
pertaining 819:20
people 676:7 704:1 730:7
pills 757:13 758:2,12 858:2
741:10 742:1 749:18 756:10 pertinent 821:1
909:1 910:20,24
761:15,19 769:23 770:1,2,3
Peterson 711:5 713:11
773:8 785:20 786:18 787:13 pine 751:21 752:3,7
724:21,24 752:13 753:7,19,20
788:10,23 789:1 790:8 793:4,
763:24 765:7,8 807:6,9,10,11, pink 892:21 893:1
24 799:20 800:4,6 805:15
18 834:11 854:24 855:13,23
806:23 823:12 827:22 832:10 pinlock 721:4
859:8 905:21 918:8,24 942:1,
843:9,22,24 858:13 874:19
876:10 910:7 915:19 950:10,
14 946:5 place 707:16 742:18 749:13
751:1 759:20 764:18 795:6
14 phone 768:9,21 777:21,24
807:15 851:12 865:23 866:9
778:2,23 779:6 834:7 854:11,
perceive 695:10 875:17 905:15 909:24 912:12
15 895:11 919:3,6 924:5,8
948:20
percent 858:4 916:12 930:13 945:21 946:1
places 718:10 798:15
perception 900:3 phones 694:24 805:12 930:13
plaintiff 704:21
Percocet 858:3 photo 711:4 713:10 770:21,24
771:1 879:12 892:2,10,11,13 plan 724:6,7 774:21,23 775:6
Percocets 858:6 909:9
896:16 935:21 936:1,3
photo's 711:3
perfect 684:15
plane 760:10
photograph 839:20,22
perfected 684:13
planet 695:9
photographs 710:11 839:5
perfectly 781:2
841:6 planned 763:5 896:8
perform 751:15 757:11 786:3
photos 812:12 838:24 planning 871:14 876:10
849:22
phrase 799:17 810:7 831:7 plans 728:4 774:17 781:23,24
period 724:15 740:21,22
895:16 782:2,3 891:3
773:20
phrased 691:21 plant 872:11
periodically 755:17 777:7
physical 754:22 planted 752:8
periods 911:1
physically 800:9 845:24 plants 714:16 752:8
peripheral 804:5
pick 685:10 711:13,14,22 play 684:13 687:14 733:21
permission 697:24
712:5,16,17,18,23 714:12 777:22
permit 687:16 721:17 813:11 722:9 725:6 753:2 786:11
872:7 891:15
played 730:18 791:19
814:23 816:1 898:12 952:23
picked 695:20 779:16 909:9 playing 730:24
permitted 698:4 814:2 818:3
832:16 931:18,21 plea 677:9 707:21 819:16
820:7 822:2 826:8,12 829:19
permitting 818:23 picking 711:19 712:10
836:14 848:16,23 897:5,7,12
person 688:21 699:7 704:6 picks 725:6 919:21,24 920:10 947:20,21
719:9 776:15 786:1,3,6 795:20
pickup 719:14 882:14,15 pled 919:13 947:1 951:24
798:3 841:7 845:23 861:24
885:15 893:24 903:7 918:10 piece 684:4 736:14 plot 752:2,5
personal 764:5,7 767:20 pieces 846:21 881:12 902:14, poaching 806:21
856:6 909:11 22
pod 908:4
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: point..product
point 694:2,19 696:23 725:11 pound 744:16 pretend 804:23,24
728:13 734:22 735:6 736:6
pounds 721:17,18 743:21 pretrial 827:6
737:11 738:17 739:2 740:18
752:23 851:9
757:21 758:21 762:14 763:24 pretty 711:19 712:10 726:15
768:15 770:8 791:7 806:11 poured 751:12 732:3 734:20 744:19 778:14
807:4 808:14 828:17,23 798:3 809:22 864:14,24 867:5
832:22 843:5,7 846:7 855:11
power 807:23 826:13
871:19 875:6 892:19
867:1 879:4 893:16 902:11 practically 761:18 801:9
909:24 911:10 915:16 934:9
previous 842:13
937:7 940:14 946:1 practice 733:9 885:13 891:16
previously 694:22 847:4
pointing 923:16 prayed 777:3 947:1 891:21 914:6 936:22
points 791:16 825:21 899:21, praying 779:12 948:3 price 951:4

22 preacher 835:19 prices 842:17
police 746:17 777:1 827:12,20 precedent 693:17 694:1 prior 693:6 694:5 696:20
741:17 842:13 850:12 883:15
pompadoodles 752:18 precise 830:4 933:12 936:19 944:9 946:4
pony 892:21 927:13 predicate 824:16 830:12 prison 759:13 810:8,10
Poodle 742:22 preemptive 825:5 852:11,15,21 853:1,3,8,16,23
949:12
poor 802:4,6,10 preemptively 685:8
private 726:23
pop 778:5 preferable 680:17 682:1
privilege 677:2,10 679:11,19
popped 679:15 778:10 pregnant 783:10 787:2 791:4, 680:1 681:17 683:15 687:19
popular 777:17 842:19 17 792:5 845:8,24 846:1,3 819:9 820:13 821:8 822:5,9,
843:14,17 premarital 787:1 14,18 823:1 825:8 829:21
831:22 832:2
population 777:16 premise 819:21
privileged 820:22 821:15
portends 825:21 prep 693:14 697:19 718:19
719:6 privy 694:5
portion 826:10
preparation 677:8 688:17 problem 680:18 682:7,16,21
posited 679:23
691:17 692:9,13 694:10 698:2 699:22 785:21 828:11
position 679:10 680:22 696:18 698:15 700:11 846:14 874:5,14 875:2
683:23 684:2 685:12 686:1
preparations 776:22 problems 692:18 800:4,7
687:14 693:11 694:7 819:7
846:10,12 873:18
917:6 prepare 719:6 904:3
procedurally 817:22 819:6
positions 795:19 prepared 697:17 701:17
715:15 819:10 896:12 proceed 814:21 832:22
possibility 791:20
preparing 715:23 716:1 765:5 proceeded 712:1
possibly 694:1 737:23 753:3
787:2 792:15 prepping 697:11 proceedings 683:6 687:20
704:12 738:9 739:12 810:15
post 736:17 866:18,20 867:3, presence 816:2 817:22 814:19 817:13 845:4,16
11 825:20 898:13 940:6 952:24 880:10,17 889:6,17 899:2
posts 864:21 865:3,7,10,17,21 present 704:23 705:4 720:19 process 680:9 700:15 874:24
866:2 744:10,12 753:4 793:18 926:21
pot 749:20,21 817:17,20 893:21 909:2,3
processing 835:13
potential 713:22 716:17 761:5 presented 786:20 921:21
produce 680:6 686:21
763:9 793:11 807:14 presenting 948:1
produced 678:16 686:5
potentially 717:16 793:4 pressure 787:6 829:8
825:23 918:17 product 745:7
presumes 824:24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: products..racist
products 745:8 899:20,23 914:17 770:3,5 771:3,4 787:11 802:8
811:5,14 812:18 813:16
proffer 689:3 690:20 692:22, provide 952:3
816:12 829:21 860:14 865:22
24 693:9,12 695:13,14,23
provided 688:7 690:3,15 866:7,10 867:7,11 868:23
698:20,22 699:11,13,21 702:1
698:15 916:11 950:23 869:3,8,14,15 870:4 927:13
707:8 708:12 850:21 851:11,
942:2
21 856:23 859:11,19 860:22 providing 696:7
863:23 864:7 876:16 878:10 putting 701:21 813:7 863:6,7
902:23 904:23 906:6 934:8,17,
provision 821:9 900:4 924:6
20 psychology 728:22 puzzle 846:21
proffered 827:21 PTO 720:7
profile 770:10,23 771:1,5,6 public 677:16 682:10 686:3 Q
726:22,24 786:16,17,22
program 727:22
publicity 761:13 quantities 721:15
progress 720:6
puck 736:14 quarter 737:5 817:9
progressed 720:14
pull 719:14,23,24 804:11 quash 678:2 679:9 681:22
progressing 742:13 682:11 684:20,21 686:20,24
940:2
prolonged 768:3 818:21 819:2,3 822:11 824:9,
pull-off 940:2 16 825:3 832:21 833:4
prolonging 735:18
pulled 719:11 734:9 803:3 quashes 681:18
promised 874:2 867:15 937:18 938:1,7
question 679:14,15,17,23
propane 749:21 pulls 729:24 680:10 686:15 695:8,16,22
proper 753:10 782:24 696:12 700:2 769:16 779:19,
pump 720:2,9
20,21,22 783:3 792:3 813:5
properties 763:14 punishment 852:11,15,22 821:21 822:15 823:2,8,24
825:24 831:7,8 833:23 836:12
property 748:8,10 750:22 pup 744:9
845:19 849:4 852:18 861:6
761:5 763:24 764:2,5,7,11
puppies 744:7,8,12,13 745:2, 866:4 870:1,2 879:16 888:1,22
768:2 769:5 842:18
6,7,8 908:9 902:4 912:3,18 915:21 927:24
prophet 949:4 933:19 935:4,8,15 936:6 938:5
puppy 743:23 908:10
939:17 940:17,20 941:1,2,17,
prophets 949:1,3
purchased 855:11 859:7,19 18 942:11 947:15,19 949:17
propose 775:7
purebred 744:4,14 908:11 questioned 827:24 828:1
proposed 775:19 776:1 783:7
purebreds 908:8 questioning 690:17 739:7
prosecuting 676:9 705:2,3 818:23,24 820:18 827:23
purported 684:6 833:17 890:5 937:12
826:20
prosecution 688:5,15 689:21 purpose 716:14 717:20 questions 676:24 677:5
733:14 761:2 766:6 824:16
700:22 699:16 752:12 810:17 814:13
830:21 865:11
824:7 853:9 880:20 893:10
prosecutor 694:8 921:4
purposely 696:6 898:6 900:14,15 902:21 903:3
prosecutor's 699:1 921:3 907:21 928:9 939:15 940:11
purposes 687:20 771:14 950:3,6 951:11 952:8
prosecutors 676:10 689:24 828:14 832:2
707:7,24 708:8 830:23 quit 687:22 794:19
pursuant 688:14 690:22
prosper 786:7 quote 766:13 810:2 934:23
pursue 782:7,12 786:10 938:16
prosperous 949:2
pursuing 763:11
protect 897:1 938:19 R
push 757:6
protection 784:20,22
put 687:5 701:23 704:7
protective 794:14 895:21 racist 785:23
716:10,18 735:4 750:1 751:4
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: rafting..removed
rafting 763:19 815:20,21,23 816:12,16 related 684:7
817:12 898:7,8,9,21,23 899:1
rafting-type 763:18 relationship 771:8 773:16,18,
952:15
19 782:19 788:8 862:14 908:1
raise 776:13
recessed 681:10 705:17
relationships 789:23
raised 742:3,5,9,10 886:8
recited 819:12 830:14
released 820:16
raising 754:11
recognize 684:3 710:19 711:6
relevance 738:13 844:22
ran 828:10 753:16 839:10,11,12,19 841:6
852:14 888:7 889:10 890:4,11
892:2
Randa 927:21 928:3 933:16
recollection 699:1,19 880:13
raped 794:3 relevant 703:23 738:18
881:21 901:6,17 902:2,9,19
844:23 889:13 891:13 945:9
rapes 793:7 935:1 944:2
religion 886:18
rapid 827:13 recollections 691:18
religious 798:3 886:1,17
re-trial 697:19 reconnect 771:6
relinquishment 831:22
reach 773:17 record 676:4 683:3,8 684:3,
12,17 686:8 687:5,18 688:3,4 reload 861:22
reached 826:15 697:10 702:17 704:8 816:12
817:14 824:20 828:24 833:2
reloaded 861:23
reaching 773:15
923:12 reloading 861:20
reaction 778:11 835:9
recorded 691:16 692:9,12 reluctant 934:9
reactions 790:18 697:8 707:12,14 851:16
854:11 remains 826:17
read 798:14 816:7 820:24
826:11 837:22 880:23 881:7 recording 688:7,9 698:23 remedy 698:3
886:21 898:16 901:24 902:1
records 684:7 remember 693:16,18 695:6
914:10,13
716:6,7,8,10 722:14 723:17
ready 684:19 705:8 706:4,6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 724:4 726:11 728:20 732:21,
758:19 832:22 833:6,11,14 950:7 22,23 733:7 734:1,4,12,21,22,
899:3 24 735:3,6,11,13,15,22 736:1,
red 693:12 753:23 804:17
19,21 737:12,14,15 739:19
real 734:16 779:10 813:21 redirect 861:7 899:11,13 740:18,23 742:16,21 745:23
realized 791:8 951:14 747:9 752:3 765:18,21 766:14
770:18 773:13 776:1 791:4,15
rear 803:10 refer 819:15
797:13,15 800:15 807:7 810:7,
reason 764:15,19 806:12 referenced 832:12 8 835:7 839:7 847:1 850:21
852:7 915:10 938:21 859:4 860:21 861:20 875:21
refresh 691:18 877:1,17
876:17 877:5,9 879:6 880:1
reasons 713:21,22 717:12 881:10 882:1 901:17 902:9
885:10 893:11 902:13,22
786:21 795:16 825:18 831:17 934:24
906:2 914:1 922:11,14,15,18,
839:3 873:23 875:3 refreshed 881:21 935:6 21,24 923:3,6,23 924:1,7
recall 709:12,18 758:6 900:12, 928:18 931:3,9 934:2,22
refreshes 881:1 902:2 942:19,20 946:7
18 901:12 907:24 918:10
923:19 924:5,9,12,17,21 refreshing 880:12 901:6 remembered 732:24
925:5,15 929:10 936:7 943:2,
refuses 831:14 remembering 846:13
22 945:5 946:19
regard 819:14 820:1 917:8 remembers 943:6
receive 848:17,21
regular 744:11 remind 705:21 761:23
recent 778:5
regulations 910:9 reminding 829:13
recently 802:9 822:20
reiterates 698:19 remove 866:20
reception 768:14,16
relate 702:4 removed 849:1,10,16 949:20
recess 681:10 683:5 814:8
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: renew..sale
renew 687:15 results 728:11 rocket 734:14
renewing 691:7 resume 680:4,7 706:4,8 818:6 rocket-docket 827:13
833:11,17
repeat 887:24 915:21 923:21 rod 736:9
933:19 938:5 949:18 resumed 683:6 704:12 739:12
rode 729:16
814:19 817:13 845:16 880:17
repeatedly 767:1,11 815:4
889:17 899:2 role 738:14 823:9 920:23
repentant 946:24 921:9,17
retard 785:19
rephrase 792:3 849:8 880:20 roll 786:14
retarded 785:20 786:1
888:2
room 689:4,7 735:7 749:9
retrieving 930:12
replied 773:7 751:10,15,24 779:18 804:6
return 764:16 816:17 854:4 877:15 878:2,3,
reply 685:10
4,6 906:3 932:2 939:10
returned 704:11 705:13
reporter 676:6 683:11 685:15
739:11 814:18 833:10 845:15 rooms 718:13
reports 816:8 898:17 854:23 880:16 889:16 899:9
root 716:15
918:23
represented 683:13 705:1
roots 714:16 903:13
817:18 846:6 returning 946:4
rope 733:23 734:7
representing 676:10 829:1 reunion 850:8
roughly 825:13
request 678:12 686:2 687:15 revealed 821:2
688:15 818:22 819:5,23 rounds 931:19,21
revenge 807:12
821:13 830:12 832:15
route 764:11 767:20 768:1
review 678:14 686:9 700:4
requested 676:17,20 949:19 874:1,2
935:1
required 833:4 895:18 Routine 755:16
reviewed 688:9
research 816:5 827:16 898:14 RRR 753:15
reviews 700:1
resell 726:8 Ruger 876:5,6 927:6,11
Revised 821:7
residence 925:8 rule 690:4,6 811:14 813:8,21
Rhoden 838:1,2,3 918:14
Resident 730:17 927:23 928:5 rules 706:19 910:9
resistant 783:20 Rhodens 835:22 ruling 678:6 681:14
resolve 680:15 Richard 704:24 rulings 687:14
resolved 680:5,23 riding 892:14,15,17 rumors 761:12 769:24
respect 716:24 738:14 765:4 rifle 860:2 run 802:22
847:12
rifles 862:9,10 running 804:17
respectful 761:20
rimfire 932:8 runs 741:10 748:9 857:7,18,22
respond 679:14 773:8 908:24 926:8,12
Rita 819:16 927:20 928:4
responded 773:9,11 Ryan 705:4
Rita's 822:2
response 696:17 701:14
road 724:21 748:7 752:13
766:12 926:19 S
765:8 801:9 804:8 807:6,9,10,
responsibility 697:23 754:19 11,18,22 827:14 834:11
757:20 951:23 854:24 855:13,23 883:5 918:8, sacrosanct 822:13
24 931:1 942:1,14 946:5 saddle 927:14
rest 712:1 780:14 852:21
874:20 931:2 Rob 676:8 705:2 safe 795:21
result 677:11 Roberts 683:12 818:20 safety 910:10 914:16
829:13
resulted 681:1 sale 725:24 726:5 844:7
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: sang..shows
sang 777:3 security 714:13 855:12 shaped 736:14
sat 685:19 696:21 784:6 900:8 seeking 690:21 share 731:1 798:19 844:20
906:15 908:1 926:10 944:21
self-diagnosed 736:2 shared 892:10 906:6 914:22
satisfied 849:21
self-protection 804:14 she'd 752:19 782:9 791:24
satisfy 849:24
Self-taught 712:2 shelter-type 716:17
Saturday 775:1 875:23
sell 744:2,4 748:12,13,14 shift 774:19 801:18
save 887:20 888:4 950:18,22 842:18 843:9,10 844:14
shifts 801:15
951:2
selling 748:6 842:17 845:23
shocked 835:11
saving 724:11
semi 720:8 733:11 734:5
shocking 778:12
scale 711:17 720:6 909:15
shoes 725:17 812:12 896:10
scar 734:16 semis 720:10
923:4 936:15
scenario 717:23 semitruck 719:3 722:10
shoot 694:18,22 696:8 714:10
scenarios 769:24 send 728:10,23 889:11 727:22 807:12 824:6 928:23
929:24 936:9,10 937:8
scene 878:12,16,19 sending 773:5
shooters 730:20 921:21
schedule 701:1 814:6 909:14 Senior 749:19 847:6 923:7,20,
22 932:13 shooting 693:18 694:16
Scheiderer 705:4 817:19
703:7 807:5 918:7 925:11
877:12 Senior's 878:11 880:4 928:11
929:19,21,22 936:2,23
930:12 938:2 940:22 946:1
school 726:23,24 727:10,15
shootout 862:20
783:21 786:17,22,23 803:3 sense 763:11
906:21 907:4 shop 774:13
separate 708:20 925:18
Schooling 907:3 shoplifting 718:15
separated 838:8
schoolteacher 772:15 short 701:16 707:19 741:14
September 775:23,24 808:9
802:22 803:3,11 809:9
science 729:3 730:19
series 730:17
short-handed 829:12
scouting 721:21
served 677:13 684:18 718:18
shortened 763:7
scream 790:19
service 677:22 684:14 768:9
shortly 764:19 834:4 896:16
screen 731:6 772:10,11
928:7
seal 678:13 702:18 831:17 services 863:1
shot 689:7,24 693:19 694:23
833:2
set 711:13,14 720:19 724:8 695:20 703:22 785:12 807:9,
sealed 686:8 749:20 795:19 842:13,15 10 823:12 897:3 923:8 928:12
908:18 929:2 932:11,13,16,19,20,21,
search 769:5 778:16,17 804:7 24 934:5 935:12,18 939:10
831:1 settle 838:21
shots 861:14 929:17
searching 768:2,4 seventh 828:6
shoulder 844:4
seat 775:12 severe 732:1,3
show 744:11 753:2 775:13
secluded 718:12 sex 787:2 836:24 840:4,14 841:5 876:22
secret 793:6 sexually 788:23 794:9 showed 762:4 806:15 811:7
section 751:13 754:5 821:7 shadow 762:2 812:11 893:24 902:12
866:15
shadows 804:9 showing 710:17 718:15
sections 889:23 753:15 839:9,13 891:21
shakes 702:20
secure 763:9 shows 845:7
shape 829:20
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: sick..spent
sick 737:15 skills 713:13,17 714:5,7,9,14 somebody's 685:18 829:11
903:5,17
side 705:8 736:11,13,14,23,24 someplace 740:15
742:19 748:6 756:2 762:19 skin 734:18
Sophia 761:18 762:1 775:6,8
788:14 803:9,11 816:11 819:2,
SKS 858:18 860:2,11 862:4 776:8,13 777:21 781:13,23
3 866:18 898:20 899:3
923:7 929:22 930:4 931:18 782:3 783:8 784:2 788:3,15
side's 700:11 932:21 934:18 935:9,17,18 790:18 792:6 837:24 838:20
936:23 937:5 863:3 893:12,19 894:8,11
sidebar 685:20,21
895:22 900:3 914:23 915:19
skull 734:18 933:13,22
sides 682:1 788:11 833:6 938:18,19
slack 734:6
sight 783:6 802:10 Sophia's 772:14 838:5 914:15
slaughter 726:3
sign 762:5 803:7 947:2 sort 684:15 730:1 805:13
sleep 757:9 801:6 825:4 828:16 869:7 872:9
signal 941:4,12,16
sleeper 801:3 sorts 730:15 743:24
signaled 940:9,20
sleeping 788:21 840:1 souls 887:20 888:4
significant 698:16 699:5
700:11 702:3 slightly 736:3 752:24 sound 785:23 909:18,20
signs 804:8 844:2 912:11 slipped 917:2 sounded 938:4
Silas 944:13 slowly 877:8 sounds 681:14 693:10 903:7
935:22 940:24
silence 835:12 slows 874:24
source 816:7,8 898:15,17
silencers 858:18 smack 734:15
sources 717:15
similar 737:24 742:20 825:13 small 740:21,22 744:20
835:8 914:22 772:14 South 724:17
simple 828:17 smaller 753:1 spare 850:18
simpler 866:5 smallest 753:3 speak 680:3 698:1,4 716:2
724:6 760:17 761:8 817:24
simply 682:1 684:22 813:23 smart 890:8,12 889:22
sincerely 946:24 smoking 788:20 810:7 speaking 677:24 755:1
single 695:8 796:13 sneaky 804:13 801:19 842:10,11,12
sink 750:4,5 sniper 807:5 808:1 special 676:10 705:2,4 781:22

884:12,13
sir 706:2 836:18 837:6 Snooddles 743:1
specific 900:14,15 902:21
sister 893:20 894:12,14 snooping 773:2 927:20
sit 712:4 728:3 842:18 snowboarding 775:2,3 specifically 725:24 762:1
sites 769:20 so-called 738:5 752:14 764:20 794:15 807:8 810:8,9
863:13 812:3 818:12 819:13 822:20
sitting 680:14 829:24 823:3,8 832:12 881:12 883:11
Social 728:21 900:1 904:19 934:22 935:11,
situated 783:22
socks 793:19 20
situation 727:15 745:24
763:22 778:24 825:22 832:4 sold 745:9 750:18,22 763:23 specifications 949:20 951:6
844:4 845:8 909:10,12 950:18,21 speed 910:23
951:7
situations 806:22,24 825:13 spells 778:9
sole 826:13
sixth 735:14 spend 838:15
solid 736:9
skating 774:22 spent 695:7 714:22 730:23
solving 767:10 731:1 886:17
ski 922:24
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: spite..stumble
spite 850:19 692:10 693:14 696:18 697:22 stockyards 725:22
698:6,14,21 700:1 701:8 703:5
splashed 750:2 stole 719:5 770:21 904:2,10,
704:20 705:1 706:6 788:12
14
spoke 676:14 677:21 747:23 817:14,18,23 819:4 820:9
800:5 821:17 822:24 825:20 826:12 stolen 718:17 720:20 721:14
827:4,9 828:1,6,19 830:19 722:15 723:3 748:23 858:22
spoken 679:6 820:16 833:14 848:17 849:12 851:23 910:4
spot 842:13 879:12 859:18 862:24 863:23 864:6
878:10 889:11,15 897:6,23
stone 950:9
spotlighting 806:14 899:10 900:9 920:16 950:21 stonewalled 698:6
spots 752:5 951:8
stood 695:17 696:1
spotted 720:23 883:7 State's 693:11 753:15 819:2
825:16 827:7 921:9,16 stop 803:7,8 879:23 902:3
spread 750:8 909:14
statement 689:20 691:16
spreads 750:6 693:12 698:10 703:5 810:21, stopped 728:14 733:10 871:5
22 811:4,15 812:16,19 813:7 929:19
spud 736:6,7
814:4 821:21 876:24 946:13 stops 725:8 874:20
square 824:17 826:16
statements 688:13,14 689:14 storage 716:15,20
squirt 750:5 690:3,15,22 692:17,20 696:17,
22 698:14 818:7 819:1 830:18, store 761:14
squirting 735:3
22 831:3 832:8 stored 718:11 764:10
stabbing 736:19
States 872:5 storing 767:21
stake 689:12 690:13
station 719:24 874:18,19 story 837:18,24 844:17 845:7,
stalking 779:1
statistics 794:8 8,13,22 846:4,7 940:15 945:15
stall 866:19,24 stove 749:21,24 750:6
stay 687:8 760:11 763:2 772:9
stalls 865:14,15,18 780:17 797:2,8,9,11,14,15 straight 706:16 717:18 720:7
stand 684:19,24 704:16 806:20 867:13 894:2 910:24 804:3
822:23 830:2 844:6 916:21,23,24
straightened 872:16
standard 742:22 787:20,23 stayed 689:4 759:20 772:11
812:3 857:13 873:8 stranded 714:1
standards 787:15 strange 718:3 780:3,9
staying 760:7,12 763:5
standing 734:24 735:13 750:9 787:21 871:22 917:1 straps 844:4
761:22 930:18
steal 713:14,16 714:2,11 strong 864:14,18 886:1
start 679:3,4 680:10 696:15 717:1 718:16 719:2 720:15
707:6 717:7 722:10 758:5 722:15 874:15,20 875:10,13 struck 850:24 851:5
768:3 774:8 789:3 866:3
stealing 717:1,11 720:15,19 stuck 736:22 787:12
874:7,10 928:2
721:13 722:6 725:16,19,20 student 786:14
start-to-finish 776:3 903:24 906:8
studies 728:21 777:4
started 700:20 718:5 722:2,15 steel 736:9,14
725:3 742:9,10,12,23 743:18, stuff 680:2 681:3 699:12
21 771:5,8,10 772:3,4 774:10 step 682:15 952:14 702:12 703:23 710:12 714:17
775:9 788:19,20 790:15,18 stepped 919:2 727:16 730:21,22 742:6
807:13 830:7 863:2 871:4 760:12 763:18 764:13,16,22,
873:19 883:16 stick 719:9 720:2 774:19 24 765:24 770:11 772:15
stitch 732:6 735:11,17,20 777:2,3 778:10,14 779:2,12
starting 722:14
784:6 787:3 794:8 804:13,18
starts 901:21,23 stitched 732:7 806:6 848:24
state 676:11 677:6 683:10 stitches 735:14 stumble 689:22

686:3 688:13 690:6 691:14 stitching 735:7
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: stupid..teachers
stupid 685:2 supporting 777:2 table 704:11 739:11 814:18
826:17 842:16,17 844:1
subject 676:16 739:9 783:23 suppose 681:12 683:21 818:1
845:15 880:16 889:16 948:1
786:20,24 787:1,5,9 792:20 819:6
814:23 821:10 854:21 941:9, tabs 770:7
supposed 762:5 774:21
18
777:19 785:15 787:22 796:8 tailgate 938:8,9,10
subjected 784:18 838:13,14 892:22,23 896:14,
takes 681:8,9 874:22
20 909:24 910:10 936:2
subjecting 832:5
taking 721:11 728:14 754:19
suppression 827:8,23
subjects 728:16,17,19 767:19 775:9 825:5 863:5,6
surprise 689:1 824:20 909:24
submitted 816:4
surprised 689:5 835:14 talk 682:19,20 696:15 720:17
subpoena 677:14,23 681:18
724:10 727:24 739:20 741:23
683:17 684:7,14 818:21 surprises 703:9
745:16 752:10 755:4 760:7
819:13 820:5 822:24 824:9
surrounding 804:5 761:19,21 774:14 781:13
825:23
782:9 787:13 797:24 805:2
surroundings 727:2
subpoenaed 677:17 683:18 811:3 823:16 870:9 916:4
818:11,12 surveillance 714:13 929:1 934:10 938:8
subpoenas 819:4 survival 714:5,9,17 903:5 talked 692:19,24 693:2 697:1,
13,19 707:7,24 708:4,8 731:12
subsection 820:23 survivaling 714:14 751:7 762:8 765:11 771:19
subsequent 693:9 survivalist 714:18 715:13 772:24 783:7 784:5,7,13
808:16 813:9 822:7 830:7
substance 813:14 820:15 survive 714:15 854:8,17 856:22 859:11 906:8
821:3 913:9 926:8 946:15
Suspicion 862:16
substances 714:15 talking 687:22 729:17 766:4
sustain 814:15,22 853:19
substantive 813:1 854:18 856:20 870:1 887:13, 769:23 770:1 774:10 782:2
18 888:8 889:14 890:3,14,24 789:1,3 796:12 797:22 799:6,8
successful 743:9,10 782:12 805:5,15 831:5 850:7 871:3
921:5 939:19 941:1,16 942:11
786:11,14 895:5 878:3 883:16 911:2,3,19
945:2 947:12
suffered 739:5 935:11 937:12 944:10 946:7
sustained 854:1,6 856:19
suggest 918:11 857:4 881:23 889:19 891:7,12, tamp 736:16
19 Tandon 828:12
suggested 825:6 912:11
sustaining 814:14 tank 719:8,10,15,23 720:5,11
suggestion 778:17,18 779:18
swap 841:18 843:20 844:9,15 tanks 719:10 720:4,10,11,12
sum 723:1
875:24 927:3
Sunday 688:23 689:17 696:19 tape 732:8,12,14,15
sweat 736:20
708:5 772:4,6,8,14 875:20,22 tard 785:18
876:9 927:4 Swinging 733:22
target 933:2
super 756:17,20,22,23 757:5, system 708:22,24 720:2
11,12,23,24 787:22,23 910:6 786:17,23 855:12 taught 711:24 713:12,16
714:4,9,13 717:1,8 719:2,13
superly 757:2 774:18 803:24 804:3,5 829:20
T 903:4,17,20,21 917:20 946:12,
supplemental 689:14 691:21
698:17 699:4,8 700:9 703:9 14
T-A-N-D-O-N 828:12
supplementary 702:13 taut 734:9
Tabby 847:12 913:1
supplementing 694:21 teach 712:4 714:7 718:6
Tabby's 858:9 803:23 886:10
Supply 720:3
Tabitha 794:4 teacher 728:5
support 776:24 782:16,17
865:4,20 Tabitha's 783:13 teachers 727:17
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: teaches..today
teaches 824:17 23 952:3 Thursday 677:12 875:17
teaching 751:19 886:9 tests 728:8 ties 762:15,17,18,21 912:16,
23
team 796:16 797:6 800:18 Texas 780:1 872:14
829:1 tight 739:21 795:5
text 779:5 856:1,6,9 895:10
tear 834:19 till 817:9
textbook 828:17
tech 727:23 time 679:22 680:11 681:13
That'd 791:1
686:9 689:8 693:10 696:23
technical 727:22
theories 770:4 707:2,8,20 710:1 712:18
technically 741:3 717:9,10 718:5 719:2 720:20
theory 921:9,16 723:17 724:15 725:2,12,13
technician 727:22 906:22 728:13 730:23 731:6,7,8
thief 717:17
tecum 677:14,17 684:7 732:17 733:7,8,13 735:14
thing 684:16 690:16 691:21 740:21,22 741:14 742:17
teenager 760:3 780:1 787:3 694:21 696:3,9,24 700:17 743:2 744:18 745:22,23 746:1,
715:16,22 716:17 718:20 5,8,14,20,21 747:6,24 748:5
teenagers 760:16 785:1
723:1 736:21 737:14 741:4 750:7 751:3 752:18,21 757:5
telephone 854:8 742:6 749:21 750:5,11 763:17 758:24 760:3,20,22 761:3,14
767:8 769:15,17 772:23 776:3 762:12,16 773:20 774:7,17
television 805:6,9,12 779:3 783:16,22 784:19 777:18 779:12 783:4 788:10
telling 702:21 735:16 790:15 786:14 787:8 790:22 793:16 790:11,12 792:22 797:23
810:9 860:21,22 897:21,24 803:6 806:10 813:6 824:23 798:2,5,11 799:4 802:1 809:9
901:12 915:18 920:16 946:19 835:12 837:8 850:8 856:3 810:3 815:19 816:17 819:10
947:8 868:2 881:7 883:17 908:15,21 826:23 829:3 837:23 838:7,15
926:9 843:3 844:12 846:15 848:11
temple 736:24 737:1
thingamajig 763:7 855:11 857:11 859:21 867:15
tend 864:8 871:2 872:17 873:22 874:3,22
things 679:20 687:11 729:5 881:3,5 882:10 883:15 886:18
term 753:10 742:5 763:20 770:1,5 775:4,17 893:11 894:11 895:10 896:2
terminology 756:5,21 777:4 780:2,7 784:13 787:6,7, 900:8 905:2,20 911:1 913:2
9,10,11 788:6 791:13 793:8 919:9 920:3 924:18 925:18
terms 826:8 794:13 800:2 805:11,22 939:1,4,24 940:1 943:23
terrible 875:17 827:10 846:13 847:1 848:16, 945:19 946:4 948:2,6 949:4,18
20 850:3,6,19 863:10 873:22 950:16
terrified 886:6,13 876:14 899:17 903:4,16
terror 790:20 904:22 911:7,8 915:18 922:6, times 689:14 692:19,20 693:1
11 928:17 945:20 946:12 695:23 697:20 708:7,11
test 721:24 788:13 709:11 710:2 712:20 713:14
thinker 888:19 735:15 762:9,10 787:17 789:2
Testament 949:8
thinking 741:15 814:6 830:1 799:9,11,12 842:5,22,24
testified 677:7 689:2 711:18 856:3 886:18 894:7 854:17 869:23 870:19,21
827:7,19 847:4 863:5 895:24 872:2,22,23 873:1 886:21
896:6 900:7 918:21 922:16 thinks 852:15 887:1 895:21 917:13,18
932:6 949:23 thought 691:22 701:12,13,18 928:19
testify 701:17 820:8 821:9 733:17 747:11 761:11 762:4 timing 678:19
829:4 947:5 770:3 776:16,19 791:18 796:4
804:19 805:8 858:14 859:22 tin 733:23
testifying 688:11 826:6,14 862:15 904:6 921:4 935:10
828:8 832:5 943:2
tinkered 729:21
937:8
tire 734:5
testimony 676:2 678:24 thousand 723:18
689:9 705:23 811:19 818:6 tires 733:11,14
819:15 821:8,12 825:7,11 thousands 843:19
826:24 827:10 828:13,20 tiresome 757:18
threw 878:23
829:16 830:13 859:24 897:11 today 676:17 678:11 679:7
905:7 906:20 931:7 950:18,21, throw 879:13,22 951:5 680:8,23 682:14 686:4 687:1,2
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: today's..unclear
701:15,17 793:6 825:4,11,20 tragedy 838:22 trucks 713:14
today's 676:21 trailer 719:22 720:5,13,16,20, true 731:22 757:14 766:10
24 721:7,16 722:19 725:13,16, 779:10 788:4 805:19 811:16
told 677:2,7 679:21 689:15,16,
21 726:7 904:5 836:14 846:5 851:24 855:2,20
24 699:19 717:14 729:1 734:7
863:4 869:4 875:6 876:21
766:16,20 767:18 777:21 trailers 719:14,16 721:12,22
896:24 897:2,4,15 910:12
778:21 779:6,8 780:2 782:8 725:7,9 764:10 765:5,7 766:2,
916:10 918:4 919:10 949:3,4
787:19 788:23 790:21 791:17, 3 767:19
22 794:2,9 795:20 799:10 trusses 865:8
transcript 676:2 685:16
806:5 812:13 820:18 822:2
688:7,8 702:15,17 823:4 truth 706:1 831:6,8 897:16,17,
827:11,20 830:15,18,19,22,23
876:22 880:23 935:1 18,21,24 920:20 946:17
831:6,8 832:17 835:5,6 846:7
850:22 857:1 858:13 859:10, transfer 719:7 720:12 truthful 743:15 950:23 952:3
18 864:1 868:9,11 877:19
879:3 890:7,13,22 900:13
transferred 709:2 truthfully 677:7 826:14
902:10 904:23 906:15 907:19 translate 777:14 tubs 725:13
908:16 909:17 915:15 917:10
922:3,11,15 934:8,17 939:9 transmission 720:8 Tuesday 701:14
944:6,12,21 949:1,4 trees 751:22 752:3,7 turn 678:6 686:3 693:15
ton 733:11 698:21 703:14 802:2 937:20
trial 688:17 691:16 692:8,12
tons 787:11 693:14 694:9 696:17 697:11, turned 693:20 694:10 698:18
18 698:15 704:19 712:1 826:3, 699:6 700:14 702:6,9 715:17
tonsils 747:11 17 830:7 852:3 946:21 947:5 720:21 734:13 827:7 914:3
950:2 945:24
tools 732:9 927:1
top 726:10 730:16,18 876:23 triggered 831:10 turns 689:11
879:10 892:6 900:19 948:21 trip 759:22 760:5 763:7 775:1 TV 725:10 775:11
800:15 806:19,21 895:18
topic 726:13 728:16 772:13 two-and-a-half 838:12
814:10 trips 872:21
two-sided 881:5
topics 822:8 841:4 895:7 trouble 846:13
two-week 759:19
Topix 769:8,9,20 806:6 trough 942:2
type 720:19 722:6 727:12
total 746:7 757:5 776:1 truck 713:16 715:12 716:5,6 752:19 754:22 766:10 771:22
861:11,16 719:14 720:15 721:12,16 772:22,23 776:3 778:3 783:22
722:19 723:23 725:8 729:4,24 784:9 786:14 790:7 804:18
totaled 909:15
755:6,8,21,22,24 756:13,16 829:22 864:18 883:17
touch 903:2 757:3,17 775:12 801:4 834:10
types 721:12 784:19 787:9
850:23 851:3 859:3,7,8,15,16,
touched 792:20 900:2 941:9 805:15
20 860:3,7,9,14,23 870:13
942:18
871:15 873:2 874:7,9 878:23
tough 684:13,14 879:19,20,21 883:8,10,18,24 U
884:17,21,23 905:2 914:12
tours 763:20
917:14 922:22 926:5 930:19 ultimately 772:6 823:7 826:7
tower 807:23 931:2 937:14,16 939:23 935:18 947:14 948:24
941:22 942:6 943:11,13
town 768:18 944:12 Umm 710:20 750:14 860:13,
track 733:9 16 869:18 901:23 936:12
trucker 756:21,22,23 757:12,
tracks 733:12 24 unapproachable 894:10
tractor 720:3 866:15 truckers 756:17 757:6,13,23 unbored 755:19

874:16,20 910:7 uncle 859:8 904:18,19,20
trade 841:18 843:9,10,20
trucking 795:12 870:10 927:19,20 944:13
trafficking 858:6 909:14 unclear 943:18
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: uncommon..wanted
uncommon 757:12 793:9 valleys 948:21
805:17,18 W
valuable 721:5
uncover 697:22 698:5
van 709:3 wagner 676:3 679:18 681:16
uncovered 698:9 683:13,15,19,22 687:17,24
Vance 847:9
underage 779:2 688:5 689:19 692:17 694:14
vanities 948:15 704:15,22 705:6,18,21 710:18
undermine 832:1 711:1,6,8 713:1,4 741:8
vegetable 749:22
underneath 747:15 860:9 768:22 817:15 818:6,15
vehicle 714:2,3,11 718:16,18 822:12 828:18 829:2,18 830:8
865:22
723:2,3 803:10 804:11 883:12 832:20 837:2,3,18 838:1
understand 688:4 692:24 938:24 939:3 839:13,15,18 840:4,5,14,16
703:20 706:1,22 707:11 841:7,8 868:4 870:10 887:8
vehicles 720:10 803:9 806:9
731:20 732:18 740:13 756:14 891:22,23
925:18
769:4 780:11 797:22 819:22
Wagner's 678:23 686:23
821:14 826:9 834:11 843:14 vending 718:7,10
847:5 859:23 860:1 866:6 698:14 818:9 819:3 824:22
870:18 906:20 912:4 949:17
verdict 816:4 825:4,7 826:3
understanding 677:24 verse 948:9 949:7 wait 725:24 743:13 745:24

678:1,3 701:10 750:23 791:12 766:2 799:6 916:1 927:24
verses 914:10 948:6
819:4 843:6 921:8,16 952:2 930:14 950:20
version 688:6
understands 741:6 waited 696:2
versus 704:21
understood 701:7 704:2 waiting 680:14 743:20 744:8
751:5 850:10 935:8 vets 826:12 853:15 917:3
unexpected 793:10 victim 914:18 waive 679:10,13,24 680:2

687:19 822:5,9,18 825:8
unfortunate 694:11 victims 838:2 861:15 932:11
829:24 830:3,5
unicorn 892:14,17,22,23 video 730:5,7,10,13,24
waived 677:1 681:16 683:15
893:1 videos 730:24 684:24 685:13 820:12 821:8
827:1 829:15
Union 931:1 view 753:20 816:7 898:16
United 872:5 waiver 677:10 679:18 684:23
viewed 759:20 685:1,3,8 687:1 702:24 819:8
Unlock 879:16 vigilant 805:21,23 820:24 822:17,24 824:23,24
825:1,18 828:2,4,7,15 829:12,
unlocked 877:3 879:18 violence 758:20 14 831:21,23 832:7,14,16
Unrational 758:16 vis-à-vis 825:22 waiving 676:13
unusual 805:14 vision 804:5 walk 737:16 843:22
up-and-up 743:12,14,18 visit 759:8 765:8,14,16 walked 901:3
752:21
visits 765:21 766:5 walking 844:3,5
upbringing 886:7
voice 799:23 wallet 712:20
upset 750:17 768:24 769:1,2
875:6 voluntarily 679:13 820:5 Walls 847:9
821:2 825:10
utilizing 719:7 917:3 Walmart 740:19
voluntary 820:7 825:12,18,20
826:24 828:14,21 wanted 678:17,20 682:9
V 700:18 701:3,5 707:12 729:8
volunteered 820:7,8 732:4 733:14 753:1 755:7
vacation 759:5,8,20 763:21 vomiting 737:19 761:7 769:4 782:15,16,22
783:12,16,17 784:7,9,11,12
vaguely 716:6 892:3 786:10,13 790:1 796:22 797:2,
8,9,14 822:18,21 848:16 849:1
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: wanting..yesterday
850:3 874:15,19 875:10 whatnot 719:8 751:20 917:4 work 733:22 735:12 740:12,
883:10,18,23 884:2,7 886:10 16,18 751:4 754:13,14,15,23
When's 848:11
894:11 899:17 903:2 916:21, 755:2,11,13,18 762:23 772:10
23,24 934:5,8 936:9 945:16 white 768:18,20 778:8 791:1,2 795:17 838:16,18
946:16 949:24 950:1 842:10 844:10 859:8,15,16,20
whitewater 763:18 909:13
wanting 769:9 780:7 782:10
894:18
wide 738:11 845:11 worked 726:2 727:9 732:16
wife 776:7 836:6 900:4 740:24 741:1,13,15 771:2
War 730:20
776:23 895:8
warm 944:1 Wilmington 796:16
working 737:11 862:15
Wilson 676:10 680:9,22
washers 725:9
696:12 705:4 710:12,15 738:6, workout 854:3
Washington 704:21 817:15 11 810:11,17 811:16 813:17
works 717:22 718:3 842:8
815:15 817:19 844:21 845:1
watch 775:11 777:24 778:1
848:5 852:12,14 853:17,24 world 716:2,21
898:16 945:21
854:5,16 856:5,17 857:2
worry 911:24
water 716:18 879:17 880:7,12 881:19
887:12,17,22 888:7 889:2,13 worse 802:6
wave 773:13
890:2,19 894:21 952:13
worth 748:21 827:14 932:3
ways 793:10 799:18 830:5
wind 830:1
910:18 wrap 814:9,13
window 924:22
weapon 704:4,5 930:3 wrapped 732:12
wiping 736:20 895:5
weapons 926:17 944:7 wrapping 738:24
witch 778:9,13
wear 844:3 wrecking 804:15
witchcraft 778:10
wearing 807:14 wrestle 687:12
withdraw 848:8,9
weather 943:22 write 837:17,19 887:15,16
withhold 698:7
websites 769:21 806:5 wrong 721:11 756:15 886:11,
witnessed 746:2 786:18 14 896:1,3
wedding 777:10,19,20
780:20,23 witnesses 696:15 697:16,19 Wyalusing 872:10
700:20 701:4,5,16 811:24
Wednesday 676:22 677:12
816:10 898:19
684:5 689:1,19 705:18 772:4 Y
825:8 wolves 747:20
week 688:12 696:20 701:1,9, woman 776:12 777:6 846:6 yada 717:17 733:20 778:24
10 705:23 737:15 759:19 year 691:3 697:7 707:9 708:1,
won 760:16
772:1 796:17 800:21 801:11 12,15 710:5 715:17 740:1
943:3 952:16 wondering 947:24 741:16 755:11 759:17 760:24
weekend 952:17 wood 864:18 798:11 802:1 808:9 809:4,6
820:10 842:24 843:1 850:22
Weekends 838:19 woods 714:16 903:14 851:12 877:20 878:11 879:3
weeks 763:6 764:21 772:5 word 758:17 763:15 785:1,19 882:15 883:20 894:6 919:19
936:19 786:5 790:17,23 794:10 798:9 920:12
805:3 825:10 828:21 835:7 years 693:16 715:9 741:16
weight 865:5,8 910:21 911:11
865:13 908:3 948:24 762:23 838:13 858:22 882:19
well-known 844:17 884:19
worded 864:9 938:17
west 724:17 872:14 yes-or-no 783:3
words 762:13 797:19 810:6
western 768:11 928:18 938:20 yesterday 677:19 684:6 697:1
whacked 736:23 wore 922:24 923:3 821:20 827:15 850:7 928:10
937:12
Hearing Excerpts, Vol 4· 10/28/2022 ·Index: young..zone
young 712:3 713:13,24 715:5
730:7 731:9,24 732:18 735:24
789:15 886:4
younger 780:1
youngest 740:7
Youtube 712:2 778:3
Yukon 768:17,20
zinc 721:15
zombie 730:22
zone 768:4,8

Jake Wagner, Court Docs Hearing Excerpts

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Jake Wagner, Court Docs Hearing Excerpts

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STATE OF OHIO vs GEORGE WASHINGTON WAGNER IV

Hearing Excerpts, Vol 1· 10/24/2022 ·

·1· · · · · · · · IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS

·4· · STATE OF OHIO,

·6· · VS.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·ACTION NO.:

13· · · · · · · · · Transcript of excerpts of the

14· · proceedings had in the trial of the above-styled

15· · action before the Honorable Randy D. Deering,

16· · Judge, on Monday, the 24th day of October, 2022.

·2· · · · ·ON BEHALF OF THE STATE:

·3· · · · · ·ROB JUNK, ESQ.

·7· · · · · ·ANGELA R. CANEPA, ESQ.

14· · · · · ·RYAN SCHEIDERER, SPECIAL AGENT

17· · · · ·ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:

18· · · · · ·JOHN PATRICK PARKER, ESQ.

23· · · · · ·GEORGE WASHINGTON WAGNER, IV, Defendant, in

·1· · October 24, 2022.

·1· · · · · · ·One, obviously Jake's testifying today we

·1· · Your Honor.

·1· · the State has talked to him recently or not.· I'm

·1· · was a lengthy proffer.· I don't know what the

·1· · nothing that differed from the proffer they already

·1· · certainly would make it difficult for the witness

·1· · I don't know where we are with that.· It seems as

·1· · · · · · ·MR. PARKER:· He's here, but I would like

·1· · Court's understanding that the witness involved

·1· · · · · · ·Do any of you have any problems or

·1· · · · Q.· ·Can you please tell us your name?

·1· · · · A.· ·Franklin.

·1· · Bethel Hill Road?

·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Bill.

·1· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell us why the house at Peterson

·1· · · · A.· ·On Bethel?

·1· · engine was -- needed fixed and it was going to cost

·1· · family would do together?

·1· · diesel engineering.

·1· · · · A.· ·Mechanic; welding; transportation, as in

·1· · · · A.· ·My brother and I.

·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Again, as another aside, did either

·1· · with you when you would do that?

·1· · to buy something for one of the children, whose

·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · ·THE COURT:· I'll sustain that.· It's a

·1· · was oriented around the family.

·1· · · · A.· ·Oh, I didn't know what overrule meant.

·1· · specifically, it would be the type of layout to

·1· · talking about?

·1· · · · A.· ·Myself and my father and brother.

·1· · · · A.· ·Enthusiast would not be the proper word.

·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You would do more poaching when you

·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · younger brother, Little Chris, or her older

·1· · Hanna live with you guys?

·1· · · · Q.· ·And tell me why.

·1· · you're going to do.· Because if I'm going to make

·1· · her there until she would stop basically -- I would

·1· · daughter's birthday party at the fire station?

·1· · BY MS. CANEPA:

·1· · · · A.· ·I was concerned that Hanna was going to

·1· · sleep and possibly -- possibly may have been doing

·1· · nothing out of the ordinary was going wrong.· And I

·1· · share those concerns?

·1· · ups of Sophia with Hanna?

·1· · objection.· There should be some foundation laid