Transcript of Statements - Waynesboro

In The Matter Of:
In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

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Transcript of Statements
March 11, 2015
________________________________________________________
Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

730 Peachtree Street NE
Suite 470
Atlanta, GA 30308
770.343.9696
www.tiffanyalley.com
PUBLIC HEARING
IN RE: PALMETTO PIPELINE
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
March 11, 2015
5:15 p.m.
First Liberty Market
E. 7th and N. Liberty
Waynesboro, Georgia
Deborah K. Lingonis, RPR, CCR 2883
03/11/2015
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Kinder Morgan:
3 JONATHON CHALLY, ESQ.
4 ANDREW MUTTER, ESQ.
5 King & Spalding
6 1180 Peachtree Street, N.E.
7 Atlanta, Georgia 30309
8 404.572.4705
9 amutter@kslaw.com
10 On behalf of Kinder Morgan:
11 ALLEN FORE
12 Vice President, Public Affairs
13 Kinder Morgan
14 3250 Lacey Road, Suite 700
15 Downers Grove, Illinois 60515
16 630.725.3044
17 allen_fore@kindermorgan.com
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19 BRIAN S. WILLIAMS, P.E.
20 Director - Engineering
21 Kinder Morgan
22 1000 Windward Concourse, Suite 450
23 Alpharetta, Georgia 30005
24 770.751.4248
25 brian_williams@kindermorgan.com
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1 SWAIN M. GUZZARDI
2 Senior Agent II - Land & ROW
3 Kinder Morgan
4 1000 Windward Concourse, Suite 450
5 Alpharetta, Georgia 30005
6 770.751.4248
7 swain_guzzardi@kindermorgan.com
8 On behalf of Georgia Department of Transportation:
9 Michael J. Bolden
10 State Utilities Engineer
11 Georgia Department of Transportation
12 600 West Peachtree Street, N.W.
13 10th Floor
14 Atlanta, Georgia 30308
15 404.631.1354
16 mbolden@dot.ga.cov
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1 MR. CHALLY: Okay. Well, thank you everyone

2 for coming this evening. My name is Jon Chally. I'm
3 with King and Spalding, the law firm. With me up in
4 front are Allen Fore and Brian Williams of Kinder
5 Morgan.
6 THE AUDIENCE: Can't hear you.
7 MR. CHALLY: Can't hear. Okay. Let me speak
8 up. I'm Jon Chally. This is Allen Fore and Brian
9 Williams. We're here to talk to you about the Palmetto
10 Pipeline Project this evening.
11 Palmetto Pipeline Project has filed an
12 application with the Department of Transportation. The
13 application seeks certificate of public convenience and
14 necessity related to this particular pipeline project.
15 We're here this evening at the DOT's request
16 to hold public comment meetings where we provide an
17 opportunity for you all to make whatever comments that
18 you may wish to make in connection with this process.
19 We're going to tell you a little bit about the project,
20 give a short presentation and then open up the floor
21 for public comment.
22 We have a court reporter here who will take
23 down comments that you make. We'd ask that you give us
24 your name and your address so we have that for the
25 record, and then we will be providing those comments
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1 and the transcript of these proceedings on to the DOT

2 in connection with the process.
3 We have also given you an opportunity to
4 provide written comments related to this project. You
5 can send those written comments to me. My name and
6 address is in the notice that brought you all here
7 today. You can also send that information to the
8 Department of Transportation directly. Okay? I think
9 we're ready to go ahead.
10 MR. FORE: Thank you, Jon.
11 And again thanks for coming out tonight. I'm
12 Allen Fore, vice president for Kinder Morgan, and with
13 me is Brian Williams, our project manager for Kinder
14 Morgan.
15 So what we wanted to do tonight, and is this
16 our fourth public meeting we've had on the project, is
17 to tell you a little bit about what we do as a company
18 and what we're currently doing here in Georgia and then
19 talk specifically about our project, our proposed
20 project, and the next steps on the project's schedule
21 and then answer questions that you may have specific to
22 the project.
23 So we are early in our process. This project
24 is beginning the public outreach component and
25 dialogue, and as I said, we've had three meetings so
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1 far and they've all been I think productive. Brian and

2 I have learned a lot from the meetings.
3 Our land agents are here too somewhere and
4 they're learning. Concerns are brought out by
5 stakeholders, landowners and other elected officials
6 and others and we consider these very productive
7 dialogue. And the input that we receive at these
8 meetings are taken into account because we have folks
9 that are managing the project right here for you. So
10 we look forward to a good dialogue tonight as well.
11 A little bit about our company. We are in the
12 transportation business, so our business is to
13 transport energy from one place to another whether it's
14 natural gas, which is our core business, or refined
15 products which is another key part of our business.
16 Refined products is primarily gasoline, diesel and jet
17 fuel.
18 So we transport energy from one place to
19 another at the request of customers. So when we
20 propose the projects, we do two things. We ask for
21 commercial service. In other words, this is a billion
22 dollar project that we're proposing, and we need to be
23 sure that there is a need for the project.
24 The way that we're sure about that is that the
25 customers will sign up for long-term contracts much
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1 like tolls. So our revenue streams from the pipeline

2 comes from people actually using it, the customers that
3 deliver in this case gasoline to gas stations that go
4 to homes, businesses and automobiles.
5 So that's our first interest. So when we have
6 a project and think about the project, we need to know
7 that it's needed and that there's been commercial
8 backing. We've secured that.
9 The second piece is the regulatory component.
10 We know that the project is going to have significant
11 permitting requirements, and in this case I'll talk
12 about those in just a minute.
13 Permits from the state and federal level,
14 we're going to need to secure those. We need to design
15 a project that's going to meet and exceed those
16 standards from the federal and state government and we
17 think we've done that.
18 So we're proceeding here and talking about the
19 project as real and we are planning to construct
20 pending the approval of the regulatory system. This is
21 going to be, this project -- we'll go back to our
22 original map. This is our overall system of 80,000
23 miles of pipe through the United States.
24 We break that that down to the Plantation
25 pipeline. It's already currently transporting product,
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1 about 600,000 barrels a day about 3100 miles, we're

2 doing business for many, many years. It's a major
3 supplier of refined products to all of the areas you
4 see along the map including the State of Georgia.
5 This is a current asset we have that has been
6 delivering refined products here for many, many years.
7 For example, jet fuel to Hartsfield Airport, military
8 bases, gasoline to gas stations.
9 So it's a major provider of refined products
10 from Mississippi to Washington, D.C. where we provide
11 to Reagan National Airport. So gas, gasoline, diesel,
12 jet fuel literally all along and a major provider for
13 the southeastern United States.
14 And what we're proposing is a pipeline to come
15 off of the Plantation system to service out of Belton,
16 South Carolina, to service the Augusta area, Savannah
17 and down to Jacksonville, Florida, and Brian will talk
18 to you specifically about the project in just a moment.
19 It's important to know what we currently have
20 in the state. We're the largest pipeline operating in
21 the country and Georgia is one of our major asset
22 states where we have significant assets represented
23 currently. So what we're proposing today, not today,
24 but proposing for the project we're talking about today
25 is a project that is similar in nature to other things
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1 we've already done in the state.

2 Every project is unique, but if you want to
3 have an idea of what we do in the state, we have 3,000
4 miles of pipe currently operating in the state
5 transporting refined products and natural gas
6 primarily. It's a good representation of what this
7 project would be and would look like.
8 Also currently here in the county we have
9 assets as well represented by our natural gas system
10 and our Elba Express system. Those are natural gas
11 systems currently in operation and currently flowing
12 product.
13 From a regulatory perspective we're just
14 beginning the preparation of our permits for
15 application to these agencies and others. The way the
16 process generally works in pipeline construction is we,
17 as I said, design a project knowing what the regulatory
18 standards are and we try to design a project that's
19 going to meet and the exceed those standards.
20 In the State of Georgia there's a very
21 rigorous environmental process that we have to secure
22 permits through and we're just in the beginning stages.
23 So we propose the project. The regulators at the state
24 and federal level ultimately will determine when and
25 how we build this project or if we build this project.
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1 So a few agencies represented here, the Corps

2 the Engineers and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
3 are two primary federal agencies, the State of Georgia
4 as well as the two other states, Florida and South
5 Carolina, will have significant permitting requirements
6 as well. So with that, Brian, you can talk about the
7 project.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you. I'm Brian Williams,
9 engineering director and project director for this
10 project. I'll give you folks a quick overview of the
11 project. And as Jon mentioned early on, Allen and I
12 and the other Kinder Morgan folks will be available
13 after the question-and-answer session if you folks have
14 questions that you'd rather ask individually of us, and
15 we'll stay as late as folks have questions.
16 All right. Allen mentioned this project is
17 roughly 1 billion dollars. That billion dollars covers
18 this new 360-mile pipeline through South Carolina,
19 Georgia and Florida and also modifications to that
20 Plantation pipeline system that Allen showed you that
21 is the Palmetto pipeline.
22 Let's see, we covered that commercial
23 commitments to back this pipeline. The customers when
24 we first said we were interested in the potential to
25 build the pipeline and we conducted what's called an
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1 open season, and that began last summer and concluded

2 in late October.
3 And in that process we tell potential shippers
4 that we're interested in building this. We think this
5 is about what the capacity would be, and we see it's
6 serving certain markets. Are you interested?
7 And we ask the customers if you are
8 interested, sign a commitment for us because we're not
9 going to build it unless we have guarantees that make
10 sense and that there really is a need that's being
11 served and we receive sufficient commitments to go
12 forward with the project and customers.
13 As the slide notes, the ultimate capacity of
14 the pipeline we're looking at is 167,000 barrels per
15 day. We anticipate that the starting up will be at a
16 number lower than that probably in the range of 150,000
17 barrels a day. And as Allen mentioned, it will serve
18 markets in Augusta, Savannah and Jacksonville.
19 Additional facilities will be part of the
20 project. The initial point where Palmetto will
21 originate from is Belton, South Carolina. And if any
22 of you have been to Belton, you probably have seen that
23 terminal that is served by the Plantation and Colonial
24 pipelines. There's an existing tank farm terminal
25 community there where trucks are loaded and go out to
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1 retail outlets.
2 Palmetto will be acquiring a piece of property
3 there from a former terminal operator and building a
4 new facility on that property which will have some
5 tanks for storing various grades of gasoline and ultra
6 low sulphur diesel, the on-road highway diesel as well
7 as one tank for storing denatured ethanol and there
8 will also be an origin point pump station built there.
9 Along the route -- along the route roughly at
10 90-mile spacings wherever those work out, right there
11 and there (indicating), we would have intermediate pump
12 stations to boost the pressure and keep the pipeline
13 flowing.
14 Where we are in the process right now is
15 finalizing our hydraulic calculations. That's what
16 determines where those pump stations go, and that's
17 based largely on elevation and changes in elevation.
18 So we'll have that wrapped up here in the next few
19 weeks and nail that down.
20 The way Kinder Morgan builds those sites is we
21 buy that property in fee rather than an easement. So
22 we would buy these pump station sites or these
23 intermediate stations. They are typically two to
24 five-acre sites, and we'll take a look at what those
25 look like in just a moment.
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1 Let me back up one slide. One thing I wanted

2 to talk about is the schedule. Allen mentioned that
3 we're having public information meetings now, outreach
4 meetings. We've selected an initial route and we are
5 refining that route right now. We would anticipate
6 going through construction in the spring of 2016 with
7 an operational date of July of 2017.
8 Here is the proposed route in Burke County,
9 and let me point out one thing. In selecting this
10 initial route, one of the things we endeavor to do is
11 minimize the impact on the areas where we would be
12 installing new pipeline.
13 And what we've looked at on this pipeline is
14 locating the pipeline adjacent to existing utility
15 easements as much as we can. And we have -- This
16 initial route that we selected is a little over 80
17 percent co-located with either existing pipelines or
18 electric power lines.
19 And by co-locating what we intend to do is buy
20 an easement that abuts, that's adjacent to an existing
21 easement to try to minimize the impact, as I said,
22 going through as opposed to having to acquire easements
23 through a brand new area.
24 Let me back up a slide, a couple here. What
25 we're looking at is being on adjacent to existing
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1 pipeline easements all the way down to Augusta. We're

2 mostly on power line easements, a little bit of
3 railroad easement, a little bit of pipeline getting
4 down to Savannah.
5 And then once we're south of Savannah, it's
6 almost entirely on another pipeline easement adjacent
7 to that. That gets us around to the west side of
8 Jacksonville and then we would work our way again to
9 the port area.
10 One thing that we may not have done a good job
11 of mentioning is that currently the Savannah and
12 Jacksonville markets are served by justice. Almost all
13 of the product that comes into those products, the
14 gasoline diesel comes in on either an ocean point barge
15 or a tanker.
16 And so what our customers are telling us is
17 that they would prefer to ship in those markets by
18 pipeline, and there are a number of reasons behind
19 that. It's typically more economical. It's a safer
20 means of transportation, and the other thing is vessels
21 are getting harder to lease and rent and schedule now.
22 Also, vessels are subject to hurricane issues
23 during the hurricane season. All of the product that's
24 consumed here in the southeast is produced from the
25 Gulf Coast refineries are stretching from the most of
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1 the Houston Baytown area to Baton Rouge, New Orleans,

2 and Pascagoula.
3 So wherever it originates from it goes over
4 the water from the East Coast and goes around Florida.
5 If there's a hurricane in the gulf or a hurricane into
6 the Atlantic, it can impact those vessels' schedules.
7 On this slide, it's a little hard to see
8 perhaps from where you are, but this kind of depicts
9 what pipeline construction looks like it. If you want
10 to see it up close, there's one of the posters over on
11 the easels here, and we can walk through that with you
12 later if you like.
13 What this shows is every single step of the
14 pipeline construction project, and one of the things
15 that we are doing right now is beginning our route
16 survey. Some of you may have received letters asking
17 for survey permission to enter your property to survey
18 along this proposed easement, this route.
19 That's the first step and that's what's shown
20 up here which is survey crews going in. Those survey
21 crews will be putting out stakes periodically along
22 that route where the centerline of the pipe will go.
23 They will be followed very shortly by some other crews
24 that will be looking at different types of resources.
25 They're looking for endangered species. We
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1 have biologists who will be doing that. We have

2 cultural resource specialists who go along and look for
3 cultural artifact issues, historical impacts, and we
4 have wetlands delineations that's also part of this
5 process.
6 Those folks will start probably here in just
7 the next week or two. Those first groups will be
8 getting out following the survey groups. After survey
9 there's some clearing and grading.
10 And then this next step you'll see everything
11 goes from kind of green, and there's a pile of topsoil
12 that's pushed off from the side of the pipeline
13 easement because we want to when we restore the pipe
14 bring that topsoil back across and reseed with native
15 materials. And we work with the local folks to
16 establish what the right mixes are for given areas.
17 THE AUDIENCE: What material are -18 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, I cannot hear?
19 THE AUDIENCE: Are you putting down pipe
20 bedding material underneath this pipeline?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: The question asked -- If you
22 would, please, what we'd rather do is save them for
23 later. But the question that was asked was will we be
24 placing bedding material in the trench prior to
25 lowering in the pipe?
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1 And the answer there is it depends. In most

2 places we do wind up having to pad the ditch with
3 rock-free dirt or soil prior to laying the pipe in to
4 make sure that the pipe is not resting on any rocks.
5 In some areas we're fortunate enough where the
6 soil is cleaned up, the trench is clean enough, so it
7 just depends on where we are. So the right-of-way is
8 cleared, the topsoil is moved off of the trench, a
9 trench is cut in, and the pipe is strung out along that
10 trench and welded up.
11 The pipe we're talking about for this project
12 is 16-inch diameter, high strength steel and will be
13 coated with a material called fusion bonded epoxy,
14 which is a very good impermeable material. The pipe
15 joints they call them will be welded together and then
16 that place it's welded is also coated with fusion
17 bonded epoxy prior to lowering the pipe into the ditch.
18 Once the pipe is in the ditch and everything
19 has been cleaned up, we have another crew that comes by
20 and installs what's called a cathodic protection
21 system, impressed current cathodic protection. And it
22 is a DC voltage electric current that's driven into the
23 ground through anodes that are laid alongside the pipe
24 route and it draws electrons onto the pipe.
25 And what that does is, you know, normally when
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1 something rusts you get a pit there and get rust

2 because electrons are going away from the piece of
3 steel. Well, we know that there are probably tiny,
4 tiny or can be tiny, tiny little flaws in that coating,
5 and by pushing electrons onto those spots you prevent
6 corrosion from happening in those spots. So that's one
7 of the things that goes along with pipeline
8 construction these days.
9 And we see it lowering in and then restoration
10 of the right-of-way. And that's what some operating
11 pipeline right-of-ways in the State of Georgia look
12 like that Kinder Morgan has.
13 This is what pump stations look like, and I
14 mentioned these are typically two to five-acre sites.
15 Typically, they're pretty much in gravel. There is not
16 a lot to these. A pipe would come out of the ground.
17 There would be a few valves that connect the pipe to
18 pump units.
19 There would be a substation off on one side, a
20 small metal building that has an electrical switch here
21 and the emissions, depending on where it is, it might
22 have a small maintenance building or warehouse-type
23 building there.
24 One thing that we do at Kinder Morgan, this is
25 kind of our standard pump station design now. We know
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1 the places that we're installing this pipe and where

2 we're building these pump stations are clean today, and
3 we don't want to do anything to change that.
4 So you notice that these pump units and these
5 valves are sitting on top of a curbed concrete
6 containment area, and that's our standard practice
7 there to minimize any potential problems if we had a
8 gas leak or something like that. All right.
9 MR. FORE: As part of the pipeline project we
10 anticipate about 1200 construction jobs. Those will be
11 spread out over the 360 miles of the overall project,
12 and those will be for the 6 to 12 months of operation,
13 excuse me, construction of the pipeline.
14 But it is getting an impact locally during
15 that time. There will be local jobs as part of that,
16 particularly part of our laborers' workforce but also
17 folks coming in with speciality and impact the trade
18 associated with the pipeline construction that will be
19 utilizing local businesses.
20 And all the time across the country when we
21 construct on these projects the local chambers of
22 commerce and others are very appreciative of the
23 spending that is done by the pipeline owners in the
24 area. They are not from the area but temporary
25 residents.
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1 We also expect about 28 permanent jobs to be

2 part of the project as well. From a tax perspective we
3 anticipate about 4.9 or 5 million dollars a year in tax
4 revenue. Probably about 425,000 of that will be here
5 in the county, the county taxing bodies. That's based
6 upon the valuation of our asset of the pipe itself or
7 any aboveground facilities like pump stations or
8 anything else that is associated with the pipeline.
9 So that's an annual payment that will be
10 coming to the taxing county bodies annually once the
11 pipeline is in service. And then the additional gas
12 supply is the real long-term benefit for a project like
13 that, expanding the infrastructure and increasing
14 reliability of gas.
15 And while we can't guarantee prices when
16 you're bringing in a significant new supply of any
17 products through an area, it increases competition and
18 would drive prices down. So we hope that is an
19 ancillary benefit as well.
20 As I said, we do operate our systems in
21 Georgia currently in the 3,000 miles of pipe we
22 operate. We have a headquarters just outside of
23 Atlanta for the southeast for our products division.
24 So we're a long-time corporate citizens here in the
25 state and work closely with emergency responders and
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1 local governments, and we look forward to doing that

2 here in Burke County as well.
3 Through donations and partnerships and
4 community investment we want to be a good neighbor.
5 This is a big project. We know it is and we know it
6 will have big impacts, and it will be part of the
7 community for many years. So we want to be sure that
8 through this process we're good neighbors.
9 And whenever we do meetings like this, I
10 always say that it's not about what we say here tonight
11 at the beginning of a project. It's what folks say
12 about us at the end of the project. I'm not saying
13 we're perfect and we do everything right and everything
14 is going to be perfect here.
15 But on balance at the end of our projects as
16 we go into operations, and this is in talking to
17 communities where we currently do business among the
18 3,000 miles that we do business, I think on balance we
19 do what we say we're going to do. We're responsible
20 corporate citizens and we operate our pipelines safely.
21 So with that, Jon, I'll be happy to answer
22 questions.
23 MR. CHALLY: Okay. So that concludes the
24 presentation. Next we will take comments from you all.
25 And as I said from the outset, what I'll ask you to do
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1 is I'll ask you to come up so that the court reporter

2 can hear you, and then she'll take down your name and
3 your address and we'll respond to whatever questions
4 you may have. Okay?
5 MS. GORDON: So come up there?
6 MR. CHALLY: Yes. Come on up so she can hear
7 and then we'd ask you to turn around so everybody can
8 hear.
9 MR. CHALLY: I would say -- I'm sorry, just to
10 make clear Brian said this from the start. We will be
11 here. If you don't want to make a public comment, we
12 will be here after the public comment portion of the
13 meeting closes to answer your questions that you may
14 have. So you can do that as well.
15 Go ahead.
16 MS. GORDON: My name is Judith Gordon. I do
17 research on endangered species in the Savannah River,
18 and I am very concerned about possible pollution into
19 the tributaries into Savannah, none which are labeled
20 on the maps over there. So it's very difficult to tell
21 which tributaries your pipeline is crossing.
22 Along with this there are a lot of safety
23 concerns, and I am going to be quoting this from
24 articles that are available to any of you online. And
25 according to this Kinder Morgan, the parent company,
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1 throughout the U.S. since 2003 has had over 180 spills,
2 evacuations, explosions, fires, et cetera.
3 And the Wall Street Journal in a recent
4 article said, "Is Kinder Morgan scrimping on its
5 pipelines after an investment analyst charged the
6 company was starving its pipelines of routine
7 maintenance spending in order to return more cash to
8 investors. The curbed maintenance may account for the
9 high number of Kinder Morgan pipeline accidents in the
10 last decade." And you can read about this online.
11 Furthermore, where this line starts in Belton,
12 South Carolina, in December recently 2014 there was a
13 leakage from a pinhole leak in the Plantation line
14 which this line connects to of 8,000 gallons of
15 gasoline. A spokesman for Kinder Morgan stated and I
16 quote, "While these pipes are old and they're bound to
17 get leaks and cracks, they can be minor and hard for
18 the transfer station to detect a drop in pressure."
19 So I would like to say that I think they're
20 not being honest with you in terms of what could happen
21 if there's a leak. Yes, this is going to be a new
22 line, but eventually it's going to get old. And the
23 Savannah River is a hidden treasure for us to be
24 subjecting it to gasoline, petroleum products
25 particularly when there's going to be diminishing
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1 quantity of this kind of product in the United States.

2 Thank you.
3 MR. FORE: So appreciate the comment and I
4 want to talk a little bit about the overall safety
5 designed specifically to our product system and what we
6 do to operate that system safely.
7 So the good thing about research is you can
8 alter your own independent research. And no question
9 there are those who aren't supportive of our company or
10 what we do, but I think if you do your own independent
11 research, you can find out from analysts who are
12 neutral that we are respected in the industry for safe
13 operation of our system.
14 In fact, we publish -- one of the few energy
15 companies, maybe the only energy company currently that
16 publishes our safety record on our website. So you can
17 go to our website and get details about our safety.
18 In addition, the U.S. Department of
19 Transportation, Office of Pipeline Safety regulates the
20 operation of pipelines. They also keep that based on
21 their system of pipeline incident reports, so you can
22 go there and do your own independent evaluation.
23 The pipeline is the safest way to transport
24 energy. I don't think anybody questions that. The
25 U.S. Department of Transportation, that's them talking
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1 the safest way to transport energy. But like any type

2 of infrastructure, roads or bridges, I'm sure there are
3 some elected officials here that deal in roads or
4 bridges. You have to maintain that infrastructure.
5 You have to maintain the integrity of that
6 infrastructure. You have to spend the money necessary
7 to invest in that infrastructure.
8 And the Wall Street Journal article referenced
9 was not the Wall Street Journal speaking. It was
10 quoting someone who was opposed to our company, an
11 investor that was part of that. But I encourage you to
12 do your own independent research on our company and I
13 think you'll find that we are in the industry, we're
14 respected for being a safe operator of pipeline.
15 So, Brian, do you want to talk specifically?
16 MR. FORE: Oh, I don't know.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Ma'am, the question was were
18 you representing a group is the question from up here
19 at the front.
20 MS. GORDON: Are you asking me?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am.
22 THE AUDIENCE: I'm retired from the Georgia
23 Regents University. I'm a biologist and I do research.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: If you can hang around for a
25 few minutes afterwards, I would like to speak to you
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1 about the already identified endangered species in this

2 area. We already have a list of endangered species to
3 help make sure our lists match up. That's what our
4 biologists are beginning to start with. By the way,
5 they're supposed to be starting the indigo state
6 surveys this week.
7 All right. On pipelines in general, there's
8 one other site I'd recommend that you folks look at.
9 There is an industry group, it's called the Association
10 of Oil Pipelines, and they have a site that even though
11 it's put out by a management group, I've got to say
12 it's one of the best resources you can find to learn
13 about pipelines and how they operate.
14 And it's called Pipelines 101. Just Google
15 that and it will take you to that site. It also has
16 some very good safety statistics.
17 THE AUDIENCE: When you talk safety, are you
18 talking about worker safety or are you talking leaks?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Good clarification. The
20 question was when I'm talking safety, am I talking
21 worker safety or leaks?
22 When we use the term pipeline safety, we're
23 usually talking leaks. But I'd also recommend you take
24 a look at Kinder Morgan's web page and see what our
25 OSHA employee safety results are. We're pretty proud
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1 of those too.
2 THE AUDIENCE: Will be you installing
3 monitoring wells?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Could you folks hear
5 that? Let me back up a little bit from that. For
6 Kinder Morgan we're going to operate this pipeline out
7 of a control center outside of Atlanta in Alpharetta,
8 Georgia. That's an existing control center that
9 operates this Plantation pipeline you see on the map.
10 A new separate computer console is being set
11 up for that. We anticipate that of those 28 jobs five
12 people will be staffing that console so that we have
13 round-the-clock coverage, and there will be another job
14 that is doing the scheduling and planning for running
15 pipeline that supports those five controllers back
16 behind them.
17 We use a computer control and monitoring
18 system to run the pipelines. We also install a system
19 that's called CPM, computational pipeline modeling, and
20 this is a system that is continuously looking at these
21 various pump stations at the pressures and flow rates
22 at those stations and running them against the
23 mathematical model to say the computer is always asking
24 do I think I have a leak.
25 And if it thinks it has a leak, it alarms and
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1 the operator is trained to shut the pipeline down. And

2 the pipeline is not restarted until that controller and
3 his boss and usually all the way up to the director of
4 that control center are satisfied that they know what's
5 going on and that there's not a leak.
6 Let's see, that's the computation monitoring.
7 What else do we do safety wise? Pardon? Thank you.
8 Block valves. We're required to have block valves
9 installed by the Federal Office of Pipeline Safety. It
10 falls under the Federal Department of Transportation.
11 And within the DOT there's an organization
12 called PHMSA, Pipeline Hazardous Material Safety
13 Administration, and they publish some regulations. And
14 if you want to, you can find those regulations under
15 the 49 CFR, Code of Federal Regulations, part 195, and
16 it tells us how we have to design, operate and maintain
17 pipelines.
18 And we're required to place what we call block
19 valves at certain spots along that pipeline. And those
20 are so that if heaven forbid there ever is a problem,
21 we can close those values and stop the flow and isolate
22 the pipeline. They're also used occasionally for
23 maintenance activities.
24 Kinder Morgan has made the commitment that
25 we're going to be off what the standard calls for by
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1 just installing these valves. We're installing these

2 valves with remote control capability on them so that
3 they can be operated from Atlanta.
4 So if those operators sitting at the console
5 see something and they shut the pipeline down, they can
6 close those valves. We do not have to wait for someone
7 to get in his truck, one of the maintenance technicians
8 and drive out to a site and manually close those
9 valves.
10 THE AUDIENCE: Are the valves underground?
11 MR. WILLIAMS: The question was are those
12 valves underground, and the answer is we haven't
13 completely finished that design. I'm thinking about
14 the body itself will be underground. The
15 superstructure and that operator would be aboveground.
16 And there's a reason for that which is simply
17 that when you get to a 16-inch valve and you put the
18 whole thing aboveground, you have a platform that's
19 about 10 to 12 feet up and somebody has to climb up to
20 work on that valve and creates other issues like worker
21 safety.
22 THE AUDIENCE: Do you know the distance it is
23 from one valve to the next?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: We're still working through all
25 of those.
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1 THE AUDIENCE: You didn't answer the question

2 about the monitoring wells. You said you monitor your
3 flow, you said you have check valves, block valves, but
4 do you have groundwater monitoring wells anywhere along
5 this pipeline?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: And, folks, I don't know if
7 y'all could hear the question from the gentleman in the
8 back. Do we install monitor wells?
9 And the answer there is we do not install
10 monitor wells on brand new facilities. Again, we have
11 a clean piece of ground and we monitor wells that in my
12 experience were installed in places where there have
13 been historical spills.
14 MR. CHALLY: Okay. We found a microphone and
15 you're welcome to come up and use it if you have
16 questions. Yes, ma'am.
17 MS. PITCHER: In the shale rock area we have a
18 lot of pine grass and springs.
19 MR. CHALLY: Excuse me, ma'am, could you give
20 your name to the court reporter.
21 MS. PITCHER: Anne Pitcher. I'm living over
22 here on
. What we have down in the
23 shale rock area a lot of underwater streams and in that

24 area. If this thing leaks, and presumably one day in
25 the future it will get weak enough to leak somewhere,
03/11/2015
1 how are you going to clean that up?

2 MR. WILLIAMS: By the way, can you all hear me
3 in the back without a microphone?
4 THE AUDIENCE: Yes.
5 MR. WILLIAMS: The question was if there was a
6 leak in the future, how is that cleaned up. And there
7 are a number -- unfortunately pipelines have
8 occasionally leaked. We know that. We read that in
9 the paper.
10 And the cleanup on that, what typically
11 happens is all of the impacted soil is excavated and
12 hauled off which usually means it's burned once it's -13 Yeah, we burn dirt, and once we've burned off all the
14 volatiles from the dirt then it can go in the landfill.
15 THE AUDIENCE: But what do you do to rebuild
16 the property?
17 THE AUDIENCE: Yeah, we've got historical
18 properties and things.
19 THE AUDIENCE: We have a recreational area for
20 our livelihood down here too.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. And I know we're talking
22 about hypotheticals. Okay. I'm talking about a
23 typical cleanup activity and clean soil is brought in
24 and the pipeline area is restored. And that's kind of
25 a quick synopsis of how it's done.
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1 THE AUDIENCE: What do you do if it gets into

2 an aquifer underground?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Sir, if you want a follow-up
4 question, could you give your name to the court
5 reporter.
6 MR. MILLER: Yes. My name is Andy Miller.
7 live on 634 Miller Pond Road. If the gas leaks out of

8 the pipeline and it gets out, what if it gets into the
9 aquifers underground?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: The question for the group is
11 what happens if gas gets into an aquifer. And that has
12 happened. I can't claim that I know of one on the
13 Plantation that's in an aquifer, but there are cleanup
14 ways to do that.
15 And what typically happens is they install
16 many, many monitor wells to find the extent of any
17 contamination and they install pump-out wells to create
18 what's called a cone of compression and pull any
19 contaminants down into a cone shape, you know, from
20 pulling down the water table in one area. They suck it
21 out there.
22 And they also inject air into that area
23 through what's called air sparging wells to force air
24 through the soil and through the water in that area to
25 help move any contaminants along and help volatize or
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1 oxidize contaminants.
2 MS. BONITATIBUS: Tonya Bonitatibus,
I am the Savannah
5 Riverkeeper. Tonight I am actually representing a
6 group called Kick Back the Pipeline. This is a group
7 of over 20 concerned citizen groups throughout three
8 states that are very worried about this project.
9 And I have a couple of questions. That's
10 awful (indicating). Can y'all still hear me?
11 THE AUDIENCE: Yes, ma'am.
12 MS. BONITATIBUS: All right. I can speak up.
13 I can do that. All right. So a couple of things. One
14 of the things that I wanted to ask you about first is
15 the cathodic protection system.
16 And this is more of a question -- the Sago
17 pipeline (phonetic) which is another pipeline, when
18 talking about co-locating, they tell us that the
19 cathodic protection system doesn't work under power
20 lines and that's why they refuse to put down
21 transmission lines. So I'm asking you which one is
22 telling us the truth?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. That's a good question.
24 Did everybody hear it?
25 MS. BONITATIBUS: The energy that they put
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1 through the lines to keep the corrosion down.

2 MR. WILLIAMS: And I'm not a cathodic
3 protection specialist. There are people that earn
4 degrees in that, and there are several levels of
5 certification -- engineers that specialize in that.
6 But Sago I would say is taking a little
7 different approach than Kinder Morgan. We do have
8 plenty of experience with pipelines installed under
9 high voltage power lines. And what happens when you
10 install a piece of steel under a high voltage power
11 line -- I can't say I experienced it -- is you get an
12 induced current, an induced electrical current on that.
13 Has anybody ever walked up to a fence
14 installed near a power line and been hit? Nobody's
15 done that? Oh, okay. Maybe I was the only one dumb
16 enough to do it. But you can get shocked because of
17 that induced AC current on a piece of steel under a
18 power line. And it can accelerate corrosion if you
19 don't think about it and plan for it.
20 So what we do is we install a device called an
21 AC mitigation device. Periodically we measure the
22 levels of impact of that induced current on the line,
23 and we put a device that actually bleeds off that
24 current at periodic spacing. It's based on how much
25 that comes in.
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1 So there are ways to approach it. I can't

2 speak for what Sago plants do, but I can tell you how
3 we're going to do with it so it's not an issue.
4 MS. BONITATIBUS: That's interesting. All
5 right. So the other big one is you talked about the
6 damage, if one of these pipelines gets damaged. We get
7 lots of calls every day, and one of the main calls that
8 we're getting is if the pipeline is opened up to
9 four-wheelers and illegal hunting. That's a big
10 problem.
11 Last night we heard that even four-wheelers in
12 the coastal plain can damage these pipelines. That's
13 going to be scary. We have really heavy equipment.
14 The property owners are responsible for the cost of
15 crossing those pipelines. So if you have timber that
16 you need to get to, you're going to have to pay to put
17 the padding in to cover.
18 And if that logging company does mess up that
19 line, who's going to pay to fix that? Who's going to
20 pay for all the cleanup? Is that going to be the
21 landowner who's going to be responsible if one piece of
22 equipment breaks the line?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Did everybody catch that
24 question? That was actually several statements in
25 that. Heavy equipment crosses pipelines all the time.
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1 It's a routine practice. Pipeline operators know how

2 to deal with it. Heavy equipment operators know how to
3 deal with it.
4 And what typically happens is a heavy
5 equipment operator would say I have a logging operation
6 or I have a very heavy load to drive across your
7 pipeline, and they would call the local pipeline
8 right-of-way technician. He's the guy that drives up
9 and down the pipeline all the time in his truck.
10 And he'll say can you tell me what your load
11 is, can you tell me what your tire configuration is,
12 and can you tell me how much axles you have because my
13 engineers want to know that. And that goes into some
14 calculations that determine what's the actual loading
15 that's being put on the soil over the pipeline.
16 And if necessary we will work with that person
17 that wants to cross the pipeline and say, okay, in
18 order for you to bring that type load across you need
19 to, and usually it's either place additional dirt like
20 a mound over the line to track it across or mats
21 across, and that's the typical way pipelines are
22 crossed.
23 THE AUDIENCE: How many feet of fill above the
24 crown of the pipe?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, sir. I simply
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1 cannot hear you.

2 THE AUDIENCE: How many feet of fill above the
3 crown of the pipe?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. We're required by
5 federal regulations to have 30 inches of cover. We
6 intend to install four feet of cover. Okay.
7 MS. BONITATIBUS: All right. The next one is
8 that as of last night, this is not really a public
9 hearing. Let me be very clear about that. The public
10 hearing is a place where you have the government in the
11 room and citizens are responding back to the
12 government. They have responsibility to take those
13 things into consideration.
14 That's not what this is. This is DOT has told
15 Kinder Morgan that they have to make a presentation to
16 us. So these are not real comments, and one of the big
17 things that we requested is that we actually get a
18 chance for real public comment, not just a hearing.
19 That's a very big one.
20 And then my last one for right now is
21 trenching. Let's talk about trenching for a second.
22 We talked about it a little bit yesterday. You
23 mentioned you were going to trench. And what I'm
24 talking about is rather than opening up the earth, they
25 can actually trench underneath their water resources.
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1 So if you're really going to do that, we're

2 going to need it on the Savannah River, we're going to
3 need it on Brier Creek, we're going to need it on every
4 creek you go under and every wetland as well because
5 these water resources are too important especially in
6 here.
7 You've heard there's streams that come out
8 everywhere. The slightest little bit not only is going
9 to put somebody at risk, it's going to put their
10 property at risk and it's just too much. So I think
11 there needs to be a significant amount of trenching
12 done if this project that moves forward.
13 And then the last thing I did bring to you is
14 yesterday there was a lot of conversation about
15 co-locating of existing lines and there was questions
16 about where those existing lines are. So we had our
17 GIS guy draw up a map. So here you go. This is where
18 all the natural gas lines are in Georgia.
19 (Handing document.)
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you. Yeah, we own a
21 number of these. That is helpful. Actually, what you
22 just heard about trenching we plan to do something that
23 is called trenchless installation on the rivers.
24 And some of you may have heard of a technology
25 called horizontal directional drilling. And what we do
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1 on that one is we have found that it is much less

2 invasive to cross a river rather than the old-fashioned
3 way where you would just trench across the banks
4 through the river and up the other side and keep going.
5 We found a much better way to do it is drill
6 underneath the river, and we use a drill rig that's
7 angled into the ground and it actually is drilled with
8 a steerable drill bit and it arcs underneath the river
9 and comes out on the far side. Much, much less impact.
10 So that's how we intend to cross rivers and major
11 waterways.
12 MR. FORE: Let me add on to that. So we
13 intend to, but at the end of the day it's the Corps of
14 Engineers and the regulators that will approve or
15 disapprove of the proposed crossing method that we
16 have.
17 So it's not us just simply going in and doing
18 it. We have to get approval of the regulators who have
19 oversight of wetlands and water bodies and all that
20 before we can do anything.
21 MR. CHALLY: Okay. I saw a couple more hands.
22 Yes, ma'am.
23 MS. JOHNSON: How far away does the residence
24 have to be from the pipeline? Do you have it ready now
25 where you want or do you have so many feet to be away
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1 from me?
2 MR. CHALLY: Ma'am, can you give us your name
3 just so we have it.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Rose Johnson
5 MR. CHALLY: Thank you.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: All right. The question if
7 y'all could not hear the question was how far away from
8 the pipeline should a resident or must a resident be.
9 Is that accurate?
10 MS. JOHNSON: Yes. I said do you have to go
11 directly through our yard and we're here now and some
12 pipeline is going through our the yard or do you have
13 to be a certain distance from it?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. And the answer is
15 unfortunately there's not a rule that says that.
16 THE AUDIENCE: What's your standard practice?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: That's a good question. And
18 our standard practice is we don't want to locate right
19 up against someone's house. And if you look at the
20 preliminary route -- and by the way, I have some aerial
21 photos of the preliminary route we're looking at. And
22 if any of you would like to stay around afterwards and
23 we'll flip through those and find the properties you
24 might be concerned with.
25 One thing that will show you is there are a
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1 number of places where you will see our preliminary

2 route laid out. And in order to avoid residences,
3 we'll cross to the other side of in this case the
4 Georgia Power easement to get away from houses.
5 MS. JOHNSON: I hope you get away from mine
6 because I'm right down there by the Georgia pipeline
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am.
8 MR. CHALLY: Okay. Yes, sir.
9 MR. MORRIS: I'm Bill Morris from Augusta.
10 Our family is on the way to Millhaven Plantations and
11 Screven and Burke County south of here. As best we can
12 figure, there's going to be about 11 miles across our
13 property.
14 Our question is really twofold. First of all,
15 why can't I and why don't you use more of the existing
16 pipelines that are already in place, both yours and
17 Georgia Power and others. We have a Georgia Power line
18 across our property now.
19 So the question is why can't the utility
20 companies work together so as not to take more land and
21 condemn it forever but to work either through
22 government or your own efforts with Georgia Power to
23 use their line?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: All right. So that first
25 question was why can't the pipeline companies actually
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1 share an easement with other utility companies.

2 That is a wonderful question. I wish we could
3 do it, but we're two separate companies and we can't
4 seem to get Georgia Power to share with us. I've seen
5 it work. Has anybody ever flown into Houston Bush
6 Intercontinental Airport? Nobody?
7 THE AUDIENCE: I have.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. When you drive south out
9 of the airport and you get ready to turn on Kennedy
10 Drive coming out of the airport and you get ready to
11 get on the Beltway 8, you pass a utility corridor. And
12 this is a wonderful place where somebody actually
13 thought how to plan it.
14 And there are about three sets of high tension
15 power line poles and there are probably a dozen
16 pipeline markers on that corner. And some folks
17 actually thought about it and they made everybody work
18 together and play together. I don't understand why we
19 can't do it in other places, but I would love for us to
20 be able to.
21 THE AUDIENCE: It would be a lot cheaper for
22 y'all.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, that's not the only
24 reason we like the idea. This gentleman said it would
25 be a lot cheaper and he's right, but there would be
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1 other good reasons -2 THE AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah, but that's another
3 thing.
4 MR. WILLIAMS: If we can get there. That
5 might be something good to talk to your legislatures
6 about.
7 MR. MORRIS: My second part of my question is
8 where you take land out of production, forest land in
9 perpetuity, is your payment schedule to the landowner
10 such that they recognize in perpetuity the loss of that
11 land for productive purposes?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: And that question was do we
13 recognize the value of that land and the loss of being
14 able to raise timber crop in perpetuity. And the
15 answer there is yes, we do recognize that.
16 With timber we recognize that with that
17 permanent 50-foot easement you can no longer grow trees
18 on it. There are a number of other crops that you
19 can't continue to grow on a pipeline easement. Trees
20 are not one of them.
21 MR. CHALLY: There were a couple more hands.
22 Yes, sir.
23 THE AUDIENCE: Who's going to own the pipeline
24 when y'all get through with it?
25 MR. CHALLY: Who owns the pipeline? What was
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1 your name, sir?

2 (Not audible.)
3 MR. WILLIAMS: The question was who will -4 excuse me.
5 THE AUDIENCE: The material.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: The material. Oh, that's a
7 great question.
8 THE AUDIENCE: You can't do it if it's out of
9 town.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, here's what we intend to
11 do. We're going to build this by itself. It's going
12 to be built out of high-strength steel. And my
13 intention is to buy -14 THE AUDIENCE: What grade?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: What grade?
16 THE AUDIENCE: Yeah, what grade?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: I will talk as long as you want
18 to tonight on that. What I'm looking at right now is
19 probably going to be a grade called X60. Normal
20 structural steel like this stuff here that's passing
21 together the beams and all (indicating), that's called
22 a grade A36. It has a yield strength of about 36,000
23 PSI.
24 We're going to build a pipe out of something
25 that has yield strength of probably either 60,000 PSI
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1 or maybe higher. We're working through the map there.

2 We intend to buy that steel and have that pipe made in
3 North America.
4 THE AUDIENCE: Will you guarantee that?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry?
6 THE AUDIENCE: You intend or you will?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: I say intend because I've got
8 to work with some procurement guys too. I can't always
9 control them.
10 The other thing I intend to do is buy pumps
11 that are made here in the U.S. And I'm going to say
12 mostly, and the reason for that is you will find that
13 when you start buying things for pipelines that are
14 made out of cast steel, most of it has gone offshore
15 now.
16 So even if we buy a pump from an American
17 vender, which we are going to do, those castings may
18 have come from China or Mexico or India. Now, that
19 presents another issue. So that's where those things
20 come from. I'm sorry, that's just what happened when
21 we killed the steel industry.
22 MR. CHALLY: Okay. Yes, ma'am. We have one
23 or two more questions.
24 MS. BODDIFORD: I'm Debo Boddiford from
25 Sylvania, Georgia. I was at the meeting last night and
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1 my husband had me ask some questions about farming and

2 logging.
3 Our family owns a good bit of timber land
4 that's involved along the Savannah River. Because of
5 the route of this proposed pipeline, it's going to
6 landlock our timber, much of our timber between the
7 pipeline and the river. We cannot take it across the
8 river so we're going to have to come over your
9 pipeline.
10 For timber owners who are in that situation,
11 can we have a permanent road, I mean a permanent
12 passover just like you would a county road or a state
13 highway. Can we have that put because we are going to
14 use it for maintenance or road building, for any future
15 logging or anything we do we're going to have to -16 every time we want to go on our property we don't need
17 to have to call a pipeline manager and wait for five
18 days for them to come.
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Did y'all hear that
20 question? If you have a permanent access road, can you
21 cross the pipeline. And what I would suggest is that
22 is a really good topic at the time of easement
23 negotiations because we have done that for you.
24 MS. BODDIFORD: Okay. My husband is in the
25 farming industry. We also have a lot of loggers in our
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1 family. If my husband is in another farmer's field and

2 he damages the pipeline or if a farmer himself damages
3 the pipeline because it has been told that you can farm
4 over pipelines, who pays for the liability and the
5 cleanup if it's damaged?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Did y'all hear that?
7 And that's a good question, and the answer there is it
8 depends on the activity that's going on because in
9 Georgia we do have a one-call law.
10 If someone is digging around a utility, they
11 do have to make a one call in and meet with the various
12 utilities, not just pipelines but everybody that can be
13 affected. And it depends on different parts of the
14 state, but it may be quarter sectioning.
15 MS. BODDIFORD: Okay. So are you saying that
16 if a farmer has given permission to farm over and
17 Mr. Morris himself has cleared a lot of land underneath
18 those power lines that potentially will be going over
19 these gasoline pipelines, when his men go to deep plow
20 those fields is he going to have to call every day or
21 does he get a permit per month, per year? How does
22 that work?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, and I can't answer as to
24 the frequency of that permit, but the activity that
25 goes on if we were doing deep plowing like subsoiling
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1 and such, that activity is something that really needs

2 to be discussed with our pipeline folks, our
3 maintenance guys because we want to identify the depth
4 of the pipeline through that area.
5 Nobody wants to hit a pipeline, not the
6 farmer, not the person doing the work, not the pipeline
7 owners. So the communication is the key to make sure
8 that we don't wind up damaging lines. We operate a lot
9 of pipelines all through the midwestern U.S. Farmers
10 farm on top of those lines routinely.
11 MS. BODDIFORD: Right. And I understand that,
12 but it's flat in the midwest. And in Screven and Burke
13 County including Mr. Morris' land you've got roving
14 hills. We farm the land the way the land is, you know,
15 where you all asked in your information online for
16 vehicles, even anything over 15,000 pounds which is
17 not -- that's a small tractor or pickup.
18 Anything bigger than that you want to cross at
19 a 90-degree angle, but you can't always put your
20 farming equipment and your grain trucks and log trucks
21 and everything in a 90-degree angle. Life just doesn't
22 work out that way.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Sure. We recognize that. And
24 again there are pipelines under operating farms today
25 in different parts of the country, and I cite the
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1 midwest that that experience is working a good bit up

2 there. I've seen a lot of it.
3 There are other parts of the country that are
4 rolling terrain and some even fairly steep terrain that
5 people operate farms on.
6 MS. BODDIFORD: So if you have a farming
7 operation or a logging operation it has liability -- my
8 husband is real concerned about liability -- and you
9 won't come out and you all approve a crossover whether
10 it's for a logging operation or farming operation and
11 there is still some damage to the pipeline, in other
12 words, when you all approved that crossover, as long as
13 the equipment and trucks cross over where they're
14 supposed to, then does that release the farmer or
15 logger or the landowner from liability? I mean since
16 you all approved it, you all stand by it.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: We stand by it but what we
18 would do is mutually execute what's called a crossing
19 agreement, and that's a document that's a recordable
20 document.
21 MS. BODDIFORD: Is that something that has to
22 be negotiated by the month or is that something that
23 can be negotiated from now to kingdom come?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: The latter.
25 MS. BODDIFORD: All right. I have some other
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1 questions too.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: If you'd like, you're welcome
3 to stay as late as you want.
4 MS. BODDIFORD: I just wanted all the farmers
5 and loggers -- my husband is concerned, our family is
6 concerned. I just wanted everybody here to be aware.
7 I would like for you all -- I thought you did a
8 wonderful job last night explaining.
9 I asked how many permanent jobs would be
10 located in Screven County. Now I'm asking for Burke
11 County tonight in the area and I wanted to know where
12 these jobs are located. I appreciate your telling us
13 the truth last night even though I didn't necessarily
14 like what I heard.
15 Also, my husband wanted to know what are the
16 names of these commercial industries that you all are
17 partnering with that want to put this oil through the
18 gas pipeline. If we're giving up our property and
19 we're going to pay taxes on it, I would like to know
20 who I'm dealing with.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, the pipeline will
22 be built and owned and operated by Palmetto Pipeline,
23 LLC. And like Allen mentioned, we're building an asset
24 that functions just like a toll road or a railroad. If
25 you don't own what goes across that or along that road
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1 or river, you charge a fee for people to use that

2 service.
3 Allen and I both mentioned that we have
4 commercial backing already sufficient to proceed with
5 the project. And part of obtaining that backing we go
6 out to this open season. And when our customers sign
7 up for that open season and commit to us, there is a
8 clause in those agreements. That's a confidentiality
9 clause.
10 They can tell you how much they signed up, but
11 I can't tell you how much they signed up for. And then
12 also, that's also covered up under some aspects of the
13 Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and Interstate
14 Commerce Act that protects that confidentiality from a
15 pipeline standpoint. Having said that -16 MS. BODDIFORD: Wait, wait. Don't go nowhere.
17 So what you're telling us is that you can't tell us who
18 you're in business with. So if you're in business with
19 BP, Texaco, Shell, whoever, you can't tell us. Is that
20 what you're saying?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Ma'am, what I'm saying is I
22 can't tell you how many different customers ship
23 through our pipeline and where it's going.
24 MS. BODDIFORD: You're avoiding the answer.
25 You're not giving us a direct answer. Can you tell us
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1 who your customer is, yes or no? And if yes, who are
2 they? Who's your customers?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
4 MS. BODDIFORD: Confidentiality can mean a
5 whole lot of things. Who's your customer, yes or no?
6 And if you can say yes, who are they because BP,
7 remember the Atlantic Ocean, you know, that had a
8 spill. Well, they put it off to this company, that
9 company and this company. We want to know who is your
10 customer.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Actually, BP was in the Gulf of
12 Mexico. And what I'd recommend is if you want to know
13 who is tied into these pipelines, take a look at the
14 terminal communities that already exist. Read the -15 MS. BODDIFORD: You're not answering the
16 question, sir.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Ma'am, I am sorry. I cannot
18 tell you what customers have signed up.
19 MS. BODDIFORD: So that's the answer, you
20 can't tell us.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: I cannot tell you. They can
22 tell you.
23 (Audience inaudible.)
24 MR. WILLIAMS: What I said was if you're
25 interested to know what customers are already signed
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1 up, take a look at the existing terminal communities.

2 That's an easy one.
3 MS. BODDIFORD: I'll let you explain about the
4 jobs in a minute. I've got one more question. You
5 said and it was in the Savannah paper and you told us
6 last night that the proposed Richmond Hill pumping
7 station is landlocked, so you can't go through courts
8 is what you were inferring.
9 But what guarantee do we have that in the
10 future you are not going to get another easement and
11 take a short -- This is just a short distance from
12 Richmond Hill to the port, a short distance from
13 wherever you sight your company station in
14 Jacksonville. So what assurance do we have in the
15 future and what guarantee that you won't get that port
16 and export?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, we don't intend to go to
18 the port. I can't predict what will happen in many,
19 many years from now. None of the customers are
20 interested in exporting anything because what they want
21 to do is bring product into those existing terminal
22 communities, I'm sorry, into these existing markets of
23 pipeline rather than marine service.
24 MS. BODDIFORD: All right. And I'll sit down
25 and let you tell them about the 28 permanent jobs and
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1 where they'll be.

2 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. I think we mentioned
3 earlier several times that there are 28 permanent jobs
4 associated with this pipeline. I mentioned that there
5 are six of them at least in Alpharetta, Georgia.
6 There's probably a couple more, maybe it's up to eight
7 by the time you get your support folks in..
8 There will be about four permanent jobs in the
9 Richmond Hill area. There will be about another four
10 or five permanent jobs probably somewhere a little bit
11 north of Savannah wherever that pump station's
12 maintenance facility is. There will be a couple of
13 jobs in Belton, South Carolina, and a couple in South
14 Georgia.
15 THE AUDIENCE: Nothing in Burke County?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: We do not anticipate any in
17 Burke County. No, ma'am.
18 MR. CHALLY: Okay. I saw -19 MR. WILLIAMS: There's a gentleman in the
20 back.
21 MR. CHALLY: There's a gentleman in the back
22 that had his hand raised.
23 MR. WOSLAGER: My name is Jim Woslager, Adel,
24 Georgia. And, first of all, I'd like to thank the
25 Georgia Department of Transportation for putting this
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1 forum on and giving us the information that we need and

2 Kinder Morgan for providing the resources and the
3 citizens of this community and the ones involved
4 because it just shows that you care and are concerned
5 for your children and grandchildren, and I appreciate
6 that.
7 I'm with the 798 Pipeliners from Tulsa,
8 Oklahoma, and we need this work and America needs this
9 energy. And I'd just like to like to say that the
10 integrity of the pipeline will be done to the highest
11 standard in the industry.
12 798 has some of the lowest repair rates in the
13 world and I take pride in that. I've only been here
14 five years but I've learned a lot from these men and
15 women that are in this industry that sacrificed a lot
16 and it's all for us for our energy. So don't take it
17 for granted. Thank you.
18 MR. CHALLY: Thank you. I don't think we have
19 your name although you're on the record, so we want to
20 get your name on the record.
21 MR. HAGLER: I'm Will Hagler, H-a-g-l-e-r.
22 just wanted to -- do I understand that the Palmetto

23 Pipeline is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Kinder Morgan?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Did y'all hear that
25 question? Is the Palmetto Pipeline, Products Pipeline,
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1 LLC, is that a wholly-owned subsidiary of Kinder

2 Morgan, and the answer is yes.
3 MR. HAGLER: Kinder Morgan will be doing all
4 the design work for this pipeline; is that correct?
5 That's Kinder Morgan's in-house design?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: No. Kinder Morgan is
7 supervising all the design. We do not have staff
8 sufficient to go out and do all the detail designs, so
9 we have hired various engineering firms and other
10 specialties for that.
11 MR. HAGLER: The construction of the pipeline,
12 is that in-house or is this subbed out?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Did y'all hear that?
14 THE AUDIENCE: Yes.
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Is construction in-house or is
16 it subbed out? Construction will be contracted out.
17 Kinder Morgan does not have in-house construction
18 resources.
19 MR. HAGLER: Oversight, third-party oversight,
20 is that also a part of it or will that be different?
21 The contractor who oversees construction following
22 concerns will be third party?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: What we do at Kinder Morgan is
24 we provide construction oversight. We hire various
25 firms and individuals to provide inspection in various
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1 skilled specialties such as welding, coating, lowering

2 in, all of those things.
3 And we also on this pipeline will be using a
4 philosophy where we will have our own contract to do
5 the NDT, nondestructive testing, of all the x-rays.
6 THE AUDIENCE: In house or other?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: We're going to contract that
8 service to Kinder Morgan. There are some pipelines
9 that are built where the construction contractor hires
10 the x-ray part. We are going to do that on this job
11 because we believe strongly that we do not want the
12 x-ray firm to be beholden to anyone but the owner.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, we think it makes sense.
15 MR. HAGLER: Thank you. I was curious for
16 those answers. That's all I have
17 MR. CHALLY: Well, thank you all for coming.
18 This will conclude the public comment.
19 THE AUDIENCE: Wait a minute. I have a
20 logistical question.
21 MR. CHALLY: If I may, we'll have you ask that
22 question and we'll respond to it. But just so everyone
23 else is aware, we'll have this as our last question and
24 then we'll be available after the meeting to answer any
25 specific questions that you may have.
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1 THE AUDIENCE: Okay. This is something I

2 think everybody needs to hear. There are deadlines for
3 written comments about the 9th. Today is not the 9th.
4 Today is not the 9th. Today is the 11th. In order to
5 submit comments, we would have had to have heard this
6 presentation. So can you tell me how we can send
7 written comments that were due the 9th when we haven't
8 heard the presentation?
9 Secondly, the comments were to be sent to your
10 law firm. That's highly unusual in a public hearing.
11 And in fact these comments should have been sent to the
12 Georgia Department of Transportation. Can we get an
13 extension so that if we want to submit written
14 comments, they can be sent to the Georgia Department of
15 Transportation? Thank you.
16 MR. CHALLY: Thank you for your question. Let
17 me just address that. The notice that you all received
18 or sought indicated we requested that you provide any
19 written comments that you may have by the 9th.
20 We did that because we have submitted an
21 application to the DOT in early February and under
22 Georgia law the DOT is required to act on that
23 application within 90 days. Now, we don't know exactly
24 when the DOT is going to act on that application.
25 We set the deadline for written comments in
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1 the notice, written comments to us early so that we

2 could be sure that any written comment we receive
3 promptly transmitted to the DOT would be received by
4 them before they act on the application. That's the
5 reason for the deadline.
6 Now, if would you like to submit written
7 comment following this meeting, I encourage you to do
8 so. As I said at the outset, you can send that comment
9 to me. You can send that written comment to the
10 Department of Transportation. I don't know when the
11 Department of Transportation will rule on our
12 application, so I'd encourage you to do it quickly.
13 THE AUDIENCE: So if we send them tomorrow
14 even though they are past the deadline, you will
15 forward them on to the Department of Transportation?
16 MR. CHALLY: Yes, ma'am.
17 THE AUDIENCE: Thank you.
18 MR. CHALLY: You're welcome. Did that address
19 all your questions?
21 THE AUDIENCE: Is there another deadline?
22 MR. CHALLY: We said 90 days.
23 THE AUDIENCE: What does that mean?
24 MR. CHALLY: The date is -- The safety portion
25 will be 90 days from February -- It depends on the date
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1 of the notice of the meeting published, and that varies

2 from newspaper to newspaper.
3 THE AUDIENCE: So May 28th; is that correct?
4 MR. CHALLY: May 13th.
5 THE AUDIENCE: I have a question. Why are you
6 not in Augusta?
8 MR. CHALLY: Okay. All right. As I said, we
9 encourage the public come up and ask us. I just want
10 to make sure the record is clear. Thank you.
11 (Proceedings concluded at 6:30 p.m.)
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1 The following reporter and firm disclosures

were presented by me at this proceeding for review by
2 counsel:
3 REPORTER DISCLOSURES
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The following representations and disclosures

are made in compliance with Georgia Law, more
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Article 10(B) of the Rules and Regulations of the
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against contracts on a case-by-case basis)
I am a certified reporter in the State of Georgia.
I am an employee or independent contractor of
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I have been assigned to make a complete and
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Password-Protected Access: Transcripts and

exhibits relating to this proceeding will be uploaded
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1 CERTIFICATE
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STATE OF GEORGIA:
COUNTY OF CHATHAM:
I hereby certify that the foregoing
transcript was taken down, as stated in the caption,
and the colloquies, questions, and answers were reduced
to typewriting under my direction; that the transcript
is a true and correct record of the evidence given upon
said proceeding.
I further certify that I am not a relative or
employee or attorney of any party, nor am I in
financially interested in the outcome of this action.
I have no relationship of interest in this
matter which would disqualify me from maintaining my
obligation of impartiality in compliance with the Code
of Professional Ethics.
I have no direct contract with any party in
this action and my compensation is based solely on the
terms of my agreement with my employer.
Nothing in the arrangements made for this
proceeding impacts my absolute commitment to serve all
parties as an impartial officer of the court.
This the 18th day of March 2015.
15
16 ___________________________________
17 Deborah K. Lingonis, RPR, CCR 2883
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TIFFANY ALLEY GLOBAL REPORTING & VIDEO

FIRM CERTIFICATE AND DISCLOSURE
Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video represents that
the foregoing transcript as produced by our Production
Coordinators, Georgia Certified Notaries, is a true,
correct and complete transcript of the colloquies,
questions and answers as submitted by the certified
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Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video is not taking this
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In The Matter Of:

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

IN RE: PALMETTO PIPELINE

March 11, 2015

First Liberty Market

E. 7th and N. Liberty

Deborah K. Lingonis, RPR, CCR 2883

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

2 (Pursuant to OCGA 15-14-37 (a) and (b), a

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 MR. CHALLY: Okay. Well, thank you everyone

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 and the transcript of these proceedings on to the DOT

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 far and they've all been I think productive. Brian and

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 like tolls. So our revenue streams from the pipeline

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 about 600,000 barrels a day about 3100 miles, we're

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 we've already done in the state.

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 So a few agencies represented here, the Corps

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 open season, and that began last summer and concluded

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 Let me back up one slide. One thing I wanted

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 pipeline easements all the way down to Augusta. We're

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 the Houston Baytown area to Baton Rouge, New Orleans,

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 have biologists who will be doing that. We have

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 And the answer there is it depends. In most

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 something rusts you get a pit there and get rust

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 the places that we're installing this pipe and where

Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video

In Re: Palmetto Pipeline

1 We also expect about 28 permanent jobs to be